# Application rates: China vs. Pro-Extra



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ok, in the spirit of Jack's production reviews - I am going to jump on the same bandwagon - heck maybe start my own blog about it. So I'd like to discuss my production rates using Benjamin Moore Oil satin impervo paints.

China bristle is the ultimate 'craftsman' brush especially for spreading around oil trim paints of the past - and I guess with the waterborne based alkyds perhaps it's here to stay - IDK?

But I'd like offer a different brush for the task that came about helping a guy out on his project 6 years ago - Whereby I hand brushed all the baseboards in an entire house in less than 2 hours, and that included cutting above the wood flooring. The brush that was handed me was a purdy pro-extra 'Dale' brush in a 3" size. Right away I noticed how this ever thickening formula {seemed like they were putting less and less spirits every year} just was easily gliding off the brush. The stiff bristles would make the application spread at the right thickness, no overapplication, and the oil paint would redistribute the harsh brush marks caused by the stiff pro-extra brush line. 

Without any time trials done - I'd estimate production increase 2X - and the brush cleaned up much easier than a china bristle did. I'd also recommend this same brush for the waterborne oils as well - seeing that it is a synthetic brush originally intended for latex style paints - it would be perfect as the application tool for a heavy bodied waterborne alkyd paint.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

And we're off ladies and gentlemen!!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Why not include Syntox in there as well for oil impervo. It may not win in production but it gives the best finish.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Why not include Syntox in there as well for oil impervo. It may not win in production but it gives the best finish.


NEver tried it - as well baseboards by definition are at ground level - the finish left by using the pro-extra was more than acceptable, seemed like a small tradeoff considering production doubled. Who is really going to get on their hands and knees to look for brushmarks in baseboards?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> NEver tried it - as well baseboards by definition are at ground level - the finish left by using the pro-extra was more than acceptable, seemed like a small tradeoff considering production doubled. Who is really going to get on their hands and knees to look for brushmarks in baseboards?


Are you kidding me?!? I've had my share down on their hands & knees....even with spot lights.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

a bit of penetrol = reduced brush marks. 

I've used synthetic bristle brushes for alkyd application. It works. Just got to know how to paint.


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

i haven't used oil paint in years but i do use cover stain quite often. this primer drys fast as you all no and does not level well .i dont like to doctor it because im looking for max grip. one day i did not have a china brush so i pulled out a old purdy nylon polyester 3 inch cutting brush i mean this brush was all most ready to be a duster. im telling you the oil primer flowed of the brush . it levels and was fast to apply clean up no problem


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

For the love of god Daniel. Finish something. Finish quote watch.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

GREAT! Another favorite brush thread!!!!! :no:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Chip brushes are the best


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Really. Interesting. That surprises me about the Pro-Extra. Here is where we all think so differently. 

Today, I would never think about using white or black china with oil paint. China bristle is like a damn whisk brush slightly more busted up. China is coarse. Its not sharp either.

The Pro-Extra has the longest length-out in a brush that I know of today. It flings paint and bends too much because of its long length. Its flagging however is similar to china bristle but slightly better but I cant paint with those blue brushes, but used to. Production killer to me.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> Sean, these guys utterly kill me, it's like I allow myself to be dragged in. I wish I could resist - is why I am really considering leaving these forums and forging ahead with some of my own online projects. We have some really serious issues in the painting trades, apparently the majority of guys would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend it's not there. *And when they bring up these 'best brush' type threads - makes me go absolutely looney.*


Thanks Daniel. I couldn't have said it better myself.

:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Really. Interesting. That surprises me about the Pro-Extra. Here is where we all think so differently.
> 
> Today, I would never think about using white or black china with oil paint. China bristle is like a damn whisk brush slightly more busted up. China is coarse. Its not sharp either.
> 
> The Pro-Extra has the longest length-out in a brush that I know of today. *It flings paint and bends too much because of its long length.* Its flagging however is similar to china bristle but slightly better but I cant paint with those blue brushes, but used to. Production killer to me.


WAT! I agree with JP on something. :blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> The Pro-Extra has the longest length-out in a brush that I know of today. It flings paint and bends too much because of its long length. Its flagging however is similar to china bristle but slightly better but I cant paint with those blue brushes, but used to. Production killer to me.


:yes:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Really. Interesting. That surprises me about the Pro-Extra. Here is where we all think so differently.
> 
> Today, I would never think about using white or black china with oil paint. China bristle is like a damn whisk brush slightly more busted up. China is coarse. Its not sharp either.
> 
> The Pro-Extra has the longest length-out in a brush that I know of today. It flings paint and bends too much because of its long length. Its flagging however is similar to china bristle but slightly better but I cant paint with those blue brushes, but used to. Production killer to me.


 I know you have done this on your site, but please answer me here. What brush is the best trim brush for acrylic for a balance between production, and lay off. 

I doubt you will convince me to not use the pro blue hair on pretty much anything but trim, and ff stuff, but I would love to see what you prefer there as well. Interior of course.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jack

We hate you
You full of crap hack.

Ok, now tell us what you know! 
:jester:


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

About mid summer there was one of these threads....

I went out and spent over $100 on brushes at the BM store. Over the next few weeks I spent another $100 which topped off all the expensive brushes there were on the shelf. I don't profess to hold a candle to what knowledge is out on PT so I figured I needed to some some of my own research.

I use these Zachary brushes. Some dude in Vancouver brings them in. They are cheap ($10). 

I dunno, to me it seems like your putter in your golf bag. Some guys will change up the driver every second year, but keep the same putter for years. Pro's do this too, Tiger has been using the same putter for over a decade. 

I checked out Wooster, Corona, Purdy....yadda, yadda....

I love these Zachary's...they are narrow, hold paint and feel precise. They don't do everything, but I 'get' this brush...know exactly how much pressure to cut around crown moulding, push it into the corner of two walls and a ceiling, along the bottom of 1/4 round. 

Like everything else...there's no silver bullet (brush). A brush has to bring confidence to the painter....if its workin' for ya, its workin' for ya. 

Come on Jack tell us what ya know...but I'm watching the margins were the sponsors are.  


9:00 PM...Christmas eve....just put my boy to bed....have a great Christmas!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Really. Interesting. That surprises me about the Pro-Extra. Here is where we all think so differently.
> 
> Today, I would never think about using white or black china with oil paint. China bristle is like a damn whisk brush slightly more busted up. China is coarse. Its not sharp either.
> 
> The Pro-Extra has the longest length-out in a brush that I know of today. It flings paint and bends too much because of its long length. Its flagging however is similar to china bristle but slightly better but I cant paint with those blue brushes, but used to. Production killer to me.


Jack, you yourself said the products drive the system and not the other way around. Is it possible you can take a whole different set of products and create a system around them that delivers equivalent results? Maybe your preferred Ben Moore brushes is perfectly matched to Behr and Glidden Diamond paints. And the purdy pro-extra has no place in this system. But is it possible that the pro-extra with a totally different brand of paint could yield an equally satisfactory production model?

I say this because that 'flingy' aspect of the pro-extra you described was certainly true when I would use Ben Moore regal paints at a time when they were still all Vinyl acrylic. But when used with a full body - the paint literally glided right off the brush. 

I'd use Purdy XL series 'glide' brushes for years with satisfactory results for brushing trim and doors when using B.M. Aquaglo. But the second I used that brush with P&L Accolade - it was all but impossible to use. It drove guys to never buy P&L paint - but then I discovered that a pro-extra brush and the results were easy - and thus a workable system was in place. 

I understand your reviews - but I don't think your choice of systems is all encompassing. I agree that a pro-extra was perhaps a time-killer with the products you choose, but I know with the paints I use - that pro-extra brush performs at killer rates.

Take for example the 'Cortez' and the use of Aura paint - perhaps it doesn't glide across the walls, but the bristles hold their own, able to spread the paint to the right thickness, and does not introduce 'scratch' marks. Translation - the cuts are so perfectly laid down- there is no need to cut a second time. So maybe a 30% slower production than a brush you would choose - but it's able to lay down a perfect cut that doesn't need to be redone. You take 70 minutes to cut a few rooms, it takes me 100 minutes - but if you have to cut a second time, that's a total of 140 minutes, 40% more time.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> I know you have done this on your site, but please answer me here. What brush is the best trim brush for acrylic for a balance between production, and lay off.
> 
> I doubt you will convince me to not use the pro blue hair on pretty much anything but trim, and ff stuff, but I would love to see what you prefer there as well. Interior of course.


Production and laying off? You can have both but my professional allegiances with brushes prevents me from answering that question here. 

But I will say, since you like the pro extra... I found this tweak below really improved its performance. 

Brushes close up is worth a read. Includes pro extra. Old post tho but relevant. Then I updated it with Brushes Close up which is entirely about the blue pro-extra tweak.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Dudes, it's Christmas Eve! 

Paul is serving dessert in the "what's for dinner thread", take a break!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Jack, you yourself said the products drive the system and not the other way around. Is it possible you can take a whole different set of products and create a system around them that delivers equivalent results?


For me, not likely. I never pulled that off before.

Systems are driven by product capabilities. Proper product selection drives (produces) maximum efficiency in systems. 

Keeping it simple. Think... fours wheels and a chassis (the system) the means to move the car because an engine sitting on the driveway isn't going anywhere by itself. Add different product to the chassis ie. 4 cylinder, 6 or 8.

Obviously three different results will occur. Now tweak the system (the wheels), add some Pirelli tires and you achieve better performance yet. So if I follow you correctly, you are asking if you can take Pirelli tires and stick them with a 4 cylinder and produce the same results vs Pirellis with an 8. 

Take Sherwin Williams ProMar 200 for example. If you build a system around the capabilities of 200 --your system will work but only as good as 200 allows. Swap paint with the same system and you get different results.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

I can cut off a road kill squirrels tail and brush impervo with the best of em. :thumbup:

I have brushed oil with the old Bestt&Liebco china bristles, i used 3 different brand ox, i have been painting with XL Glides and Corona Cortez lately. You have to know how and with what to reduce it with. A 2.5 XL glide is my new go to brush on trim and crown for oil. Try it.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

DHlll said:


> I can cut off a road kill squirrels tail and brush impervo with the best of em. :thumbup:


:laughing::laughing: I like this guy!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do not think brand matters much when comparing white china bristle to white china bristle or ox hair (at least among the big 3).

Natural bristle does not cut in as sharp as the synthetics often, but nothing lays oil out like an ox hair brush.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Ox-o-thins are my go to oil brush. They don't see much duty anymore

Scott, if I recall, wasn't Nate going to send you a shaving brush to try out?

Or was that one of my flu induced sweaty nightmares?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> Ox-o-thins are my go to oil brush. They don't see much duty anymore
> 
> Scott, if I recall, wasn't Nate going to send you a shaving brush to try out?
> 
> Or was that one of my flu induced sweaty nightmares?


Hmmmm...:whistling2:

Bodine sent me a badger and a couple of others a couple of years ago. Arroworthy has sent me tons, but not lately. 

Wooster and Purdy, hint hint.

Syntox is my go to when something has to be clear and nice.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Here's a Purdy for ya!


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