# Stain Over Paint



## JTP

Hello All--

Question--How advisable is it to use a solid body (oil or latex) stain over a previously painted exterior? If preperation and priming is done correctly, does it matter. All thoughts and ideas are solicited. Thanks.

JTP


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## DeanV

It probably will not harm anything as long has the adhesion is sufficient, it should just function like a flat paint. How ever, if it was painted already, spec the job for the proper product and put paint on it. It will be cover better, apply better, etc.

One stain I use, by Graham is marketed as stain/flat house paint. Most companies do not do it this way though. The flat paint and stain are separate products.


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## slickshift

I often use solid stain for certain re-paints


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## MAK-Deco

Cabots ProVt is basically a flat house paint. When you go to there site and also look on there tinting charts, ProVT is listed as flat and "the finish" is listed as low luster. So it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Housepainter

Cabot dealer can also custom tint their solid stains to suit your customers taste. :thumbup:


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## tsunamicontract

One of the biggest down sides to using stain is that it just doesn't last as long as paint. If it is already painted I would keep it painted for longevity.


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## Purdygirl

A stain won't penetrate the wood at all if it has been previously painted, so what would be the point of using solid stain instead of paint? Seems kind of pointless. I'm on the team that says use paint over paint.


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## acrylicrecoating

Same here paint over paint. Stain only makes sense if it is able to penetrate the wood. You would not get the same amount of "good" coverage as you would with paint.


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## Boyfromthenorth

Paint it definitely. Stain, basically, is just thin paint. It is thinned to increase penetration. It would be defeating the purpose, and adhesion won't be ideal either.


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## painterdude

JTP said:


> Hello All--
> 
> Question--How advisable is it to use a solid body (oil or latex) stain over a previously painted exterior? If preperation and priming is done correctly, does it matter. All thoughts and ideas are solicited. Thanks.
> 
> JTP


Oil stain will not penetrate or be accepted by the latex paint. It'll just run off and leave a mess. Latex stain is nothing more than watered down paint. I've never had a paint company or rep able to tell me the difference. If it's painted, paint it again....Priming it will make the stain (oil) run off even quicker. hope this helps


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## JTP

*JTP Clarifies Question*

I do re-paints. Here, where I work--I must do extensive scraping and prep in order to get ready to re-paint. Many homes I do have at least 1/2 of the total square footage down to bare wood.

I usually scrape, feather sand, spot prime and top coat twice. Was just wondering, giving this situation if the staining idea as opposed to painting ideas was better or worse.

I generally re-paint over paint and re-stain-over stain as most of you suggested is the usual method. I did not realize that stain was just watered down paint. Not being a chemist or up on paint/stain technology, I thought stain and paint (latex and oil base) were significantly different in formulation.

Thanks for all the input so far.

JTP


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## MAK-Deco

Boyfromthenorth said:


> Paint it definitely. Stain, basically, is just thin paint. It is thinned to increase penetration. It would be defeating the purpose, and adhesion won't be ideal either.


If you ever used Cabots solid color stain... it ain't thin! its flat paint! there really is no difference between solid color and flat paint these days.


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## slickshift

*These Statements Are Inaccurate*



tsunamicontract said:


> One of the biggest down sides to using stain is that it just doesn't last as long as paint.


Stain wears differently then paint
Maybe in specific environments paint may last longer
None that I've lived/worked in though



Purdygirl said:


> A stain won't penetrate the wood at all if it has been previously painted...


...and the coating is in great condition
It might not
I also would generally consider more paint for that app
However, on poor substrates the stain can penetrate the coating, and even the wood
Keep in mind your not always looking to penetrate the wood either



acrylicrecoating said:


> ...You would not get the same amount of "good" coverage as you would with paint.


What's "good" coverage?



Boyfromthenorth said:


> Stain, basically, is just thin paint. It is thinned to increase penetration. It would be defeating the purpose, and adhesion won't be ideal either.


Solid stain is not just thinned paint
What purpose is being defeated?
Adhesion is just fine thanks



painterdude said:


> Oil stain will not penetrate or be accepted by the latex paint. It'll just run off and leave a mess. Latex stain is nothing more than watered down paint.


Again not sure where the thinned paint thing is from
The alkyd (hybrid) solid stains I use penetrate and are accepted by the latex paint just fine


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## slickshift

MAK-Deco said:


> If you ever used Cabots solid color stain... it ain't thin!


Yeah no crap
Try some Rubol and tell me it's 'thinned paint'


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## MAK-Deco

slickshift said:


> Yeah no crap
> Try some Rubol and tell me it's 'thinned paint'



Yeah that's true... and pricey too boot!


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## vermontpainter

Slick

I'm not sure if this is just one of those threads that gets off track with some misinformation, or if its such an accessible topic that everyone has a strong opinion on it. 

My first instinct was to weigh in with my belief that paints are great and stains are great depending on the application. Stains are not thinned down paints. Sometimes there can be something a little weird about putting one over the other. I definitely find that the Provt type products, although lacking in color retention characteristics, they fade rather than flake and peel, which to me is the more desirable effect in the new england elements. 

Now, someone will come in and say:

 _"Heck we put Provt on a dozen barn sashes in Billings and they all peeled the next damn day."_

And some smart guy will come in and say 

_"Well the OVT solid oil doesnt stick to nothing and besides it drips out of my 4 inch Purdy White Doves so bad that I had to get Purdy to custom craft a 5 1/2 inch XL-Pro-Glide just so I could hold enough stain"_

...and someone else will say:

_"Cabots The Finish is a good one but I have to get special fiber optic lined speeflo .012 tips to get it to atomize properly and hold up to the silicon fortification of the Finish, and even so, over time the capillary action of the silicon on the pistons isnt worth the risk"_

and some other little troll will crawl out from the bridge he sleeps under and say something clever like:

_"uuhh while varm doun hear in da drawl whee maik are owne stayn up ta Ma Parka Farm in da planez wheneva won uv da halfers dye wee taik da inteernl organz an sqweez um inta sap bukkits an it amazein how mony difrent colerz ya ken git outta won ded cow...now dat stuf do penertait a nun frum a hunerd yardz!!"_


Good night


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## tsunamicontract

vermontpainter said:


> and some other little troll will crawl out from the bridge he sleeps under and say something clever like:
> 
> _"uuhh while varm doun hear in da drawl whee maik are owne stayn up ta Ma Parka Farm in da planez wheneva won uv da halfers dye wee taik da inteernl organz an sqweez um inta sap bukkits an it amazein how mony difrent colerz ya ken git outta won ded cow...now dat stuf do penertait a nun frum a hunerd yardz!!"_
> 
> 
> Good night


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## slickshift

vermontpainter said:


> ...I definitely find that the Provt type products, although lacking in color retention characteristics, they fade rather than flake and peel, which to me is the more desirable effect in the new england elements.


Most of the solid stains fade rather than peel
Usually that's what we're looking for when using a solid stain


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## slickshift

vermontpainter said:


> _"uuhh while varm doun hear in da drawl whee maik are owne stayn up ta Ma Parka Farm in da planez wheneva won uv da halfers dye wee taik da inteernl organz an sqweez um inta sap bukkits an it amazein how mony difrent colerz ya ken git outta won ded cow...now dat stuf do penertait a nun frum a hunerd yardz!!"_


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## DeanV

Stain over paint will not resist peeling IMHO since it will not function like stain over paint. I suppose if there was a large amount of peeling paint removed, that it might be worth converting to stain, instead of paint. Stain is the way I go whenever possible on my exterior jobs (over existing stain).


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## MAK-Deco

Ok if a house has flat paint on it how would you guys tell if it was flat paint or solid color? The houses we do are rough cedar lap siding and a lot of times I do not know what was previously put on there and its flat. We always use a solid color stain on it.


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## DeanV

I feel like I can usually tell base on film build and if the paint looks to have built a film that is hiding the texture of the wood. I am beginning to wonder though if after say 3-4 repaints every 5 years if solid stain is really no different than flat paint anymore, all the coats seem to start building up in some areas and forming a film.


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## vermontpainter

MAK-Deco said:


> Ok if a house has flat paint on it how would you guys tell if it was flat paint or solid color? The houses we do are rough cedar lap siding and a lot of times I do not what was previously put on there and its flat. We always use a solid color stain on it.


MAK

It would be harder to discern on rough...


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## timhag

vermontpainter said:


> Slick
> 
> I'm not sure if this is just one of those threads that gets off track with some misinformation, or if its such an accessible topic that everyone has a strong opinion on it.
> 
> My first instinct was to weigh in with my belief that paints are great and stains are great depending on the application. Stains are not thinned down paints. Sometimes there can be something a little weird about putting one over the other. I definitely find that the Provt type products, although lacking in color retention characteristics, they fade rather than flake and peel, which to me is the more desirable effect in the new england elements.
> 
> Now, someone will come in and say:
> 
> _"Heck we put Provt on a dozen barn sashes in Billings and they all peeled the next damn day."_
> 
> And some smart guy will come in and say
> 
> _"Well the OVT solid oil doesnt stick to nothing and besides it drips out of my 4 inch Purdy White Doves so bad that I had to get Purdy to custom craft a 5 1/2 inch XL-Pro-Glide just so I could hold enough stain"_
> 
> ...and someone else will say:
> 
> _"Cabots The Finish is a good one but I have to get special fiber optic lined speeflo .012 tips to get it to atomize properly and hold up to the silicon fortification of the Finish, and even so, over time the capillary action of the silicon on the pistons isnt worth the risk"_
> 
> and some other little troll will crawl out from the bridge he sleeps under and say something clever like:
> 
> _"uuhh while varm doun hear in da drawl whee maik are owne stayn up ta Ma Parka Farm in da planez wheneva won uv da halfers dye wee taik da inteernl organz an sqweez um inta sap bukkits an it amazein how mony difrent colerz ya ken git outta won ded cow...now dat stuf do penertait a nun frum a hunerd yardz!!"_
> 
> 
> Good night


You were really bored out of your mind ......uh?:lol::lol:


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## vermontpainter

timhag said:


> You were really bored out of your mind ......uh?:lol::lol:


:yes::blink::whistling2::yes:


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## timhag

damn V, can't step away for a few mins. without you doing something crazy like........being bored.....lol


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## slickshift

MAK-Deco said:


> Ok if a house has flat paint on it how would you guys tell if it was flat paint or solid color? The houses we do are rough cedar lap siding and a lot of times I do not know what was previously put on there and its flat. We always use a solid color stain on it.


That...can be pretty difficult
Out here, we rarely see flat unless it's stain (flat paint is basically a mold farm out here)
So if it's chalky, I just figure it's stain


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## tsunamicontract

another disadvantage to stain is that if it fails, it is actually worse to deal with than paint. Because it really all has to come off. This church I am working on turned into a total mess because what I though was an inadequately thin coat of paint on top of primer was actually several (still inadequate) coats of stain. Turned into long extensive prep work because it doesn't not scrape or peel like paint. And I feel that my top coat will not last as long with there still being some remaining stain on there as the stain is still failing, just difficult to remove. I definitely do not recommend it. A better option might be two coats of the cabots oil based semi solid stain on raw wood. Won't peel, easy maintenance coat ever 3-4 years soaks in nicely to the wood and doesn't build much of a film but still with two coats has a solid opacity. I have an 8yo house that I am putting its second maintenance coat on this summer and it still looks brand new, just a little faded from the sun. And the owner understand the value of proper maintenance:yes:


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## MAK-Deco

I have never come across the opportunity to do a raw wood home. So we are always dealing with coated rough cedar. Typical for around these part on custom homes, brick in the front and half way up the three sides. so cedar is overhangs and second story body


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> another disadvantage to stain is that if it fails, it is actually worse to deal with than paint.
> 
> _How does a stain fail?_
> 
> A better option might be two coats of the cabots oil based semi solid stain on raw wood.
> 
> _Doesnt Cabot recommend one coat application with this product? I believe they do. First coat penetrates the wood. Second coat has nothing to penetrate so it builds on itself into a sticky, flashy finish._


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## tsunamicontract

vermontpainter said:


> _How does a stain fail?_
> 
> A better option might be two coats of the cabots oil based semi solid stain on raw wood.
> 
> _Doesnt Cabot recommend one coat application with this product? I believe they do. First coat penetrates the wood. Second coat has nothing to penetrate so it builds on itself into a sticky, flashy finish._


You have never seen stain fail? lets see if I can post a pic of this stain failing

When stain fails it just starts to break down. It doesn't necessarily peel, flakes a little and turns to dust when you scrape it. 

cabots does recommend 1 coat. 1 coat leaves you with a dark semi trans look. You can either try a wet on wet coat (but keep it within an hour or two and two light coats) or better yet put on one coat, come back and hit it again next year. If the wood it good you should get a solid color look with virtually no film build up and easy maint.

What say you to this scott?


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## tsunamicontract

ok pic doesn't really show whats going on. ignore it, I will see if I can get a better before pic (they are lost in cyber space)


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## JTP

Given the situation I describe in post #11 in this thread, would you stain over the paint or paint over the paint? Thanks.

JTP


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## tsunamicontract

I would paint over the paint. I am not convinced that stain sticks very well to paint, just to raw wood. Not that I am an expert on this or have conducted extensive research on it, but just how I feel. I think you have a better chance keeping a paint job maintained every 5-7 years than keeping a stain job maintained over paint every 2-3 years until it just starts falling apart . . .

if its moisture problems you have something that seems to really help is either (if the siding allows) installing vents in the bottom of the clappards or scoring the bottoms of them after primer and 1st coat with a sharp 5 in 1 so they can breath. I did a house last fall with a thick coat of slow dry oil fresh start and two coats of moore guard and you can actually see the spots where the paint sealed the bottom of the boards the board below is bubbling already.


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## johnthepainter

ive found that all that prep work was a lot of work, so now i just show up and start painting or staining

the jobs seem to go a lot quicker, and im raking in tons of cash.

who cares what type of material you put on,,,just put it on a get on down the road.


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## tsunamicontract

johnthepainter said:


> ive found that all that prep work was a lot of work, so now i just show up and start painting or staining
> 
> the jobs seem to go a lot quicker, and im raking in tons of cash.
> 
> who cares what type of material you put on,,,just put it on a get on down the road.


totally. it always looks good for a couple days at least.


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> You have never seen stain fail?
> 
> _I think we need to be careful what we call a "failure". Yes, I have seen stain that was left on the house waay beyond its recommended service life, in which case it fades, chalks and starts to flake. I do not consider this to be a failure. If it broke down before its service life expectancy, and had been applied according to spec, that would be a failure. There is a big difference between failure and homeowner neglect. _
> 
> _Overall, between paints and stains I have seen more paints show signs of premature failure than stains. One penetrates, the other forms a shell. Its easy to figure out which one the elements will break first._


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## vermontpainter

JTP said:


> Given the situation I describe in post #11 in this thread, would you stain over the paint or paint over the paint? Thanks.
> 
> JTP


JTP

I would paint over the paint. The barewood areas I would prime and paint, as you described. The bonding characteristics of paint would be superior to those of stains, which want to penetrate.


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## CApainter

Paint it. I used Cabot Solid Stain OVT on raw T111 siding, and it absorbed great. It covered great in one coat because of it's thick viscosity while allowing the grain to show. However, where I applied it over the pre primed trim, it stayed oily without skinning over.


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## CApainter

And oh...that was some funny **** V.


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## NEPS.US

johnthepainter said:


> ive found that all that prep work was a lot of work, so now i just show up and start painting or staining
> 
> the jobs seem to go a lot quicker, and im raking in tons of cash.
> 
> who cares what type of material you put on,,,just put it on a get on down the road.


John is always so bitter, angry and funny. :thumbsup:


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## NEPS.US

Good Stuff V!


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## slickshift

*Stain Failure*

I've seen plenty of stain failure
(Heck I've seen _Bleaching Oil_ failures)
But they were nearly all just _sprayed_ on right over the old coating, mold, bugs, etc...

I've also seen stain that was on way too long w/o "fail"
That's normal wear and tear though...not a premature failure
Some of these H/Os think you only should be painting/staining once every 20 years


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## JTP

johnthepainter said:


> ive found that all that prep work was a lot of work, so now i just show up and start painting or staining
> 
> the jobs seem to go a lot quicker, and im raking in tons of cash.
> 
> who cares what type of material you put on,,,just put it on a get on down the road.


Great suggestion John. Think I'll try your system out.

JTP


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## JTP

The prevailing opinion here seems to be: Paint over paint, stain over stain. Think I'll stick with that formula. Thanks for the input. It is truly appreciated.

JTP


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## tsunamicontract

vermontpainter said:


> tsunamicontract said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have never seen stain fail?
> 
> _I think we need to be careful what we call a "failure". Yes, I have seen stain that was left on the house waay beyond its recommended service life, in which case it fades, chalks and starts to flake. I do not consider this to be a failure. If it broke down before its service life expectancy, and had been applied according to spec, that would be a failure. There is a big difference between failure and homeowner neglect. _
> 
> _Overall, between paints and stains I have seen more paints show signs of premature failure than stains. One penetrates, the other forms a shell. Its easy to figure out which one the elements will break first._
> 
> 
> 
> hmm so you think it might not be a failure? I am fairly certain that the top coat had been on no longer than 4 years, much less in many spots. I think what was happening is the first coat of stain over the primer was breaking down so it did not matter how much or often you put stain over it. But you would not consider it a failure? The stain was some solid color latex from BM. I put a thick coat of peel bond over it and two coats of superpaint. I do not know how long it is going to last but it looks pretty good. Is the first coat of stain going to keep breaking down under my superpaint and peelbond until it starts to flake? Scott what would you have done in this situation? Stripping it all off (would have had to have been chem) was way out of the budget and time frame (wedding coming up). If you have paint and then stain on top of that then what do you do? Do stain and paint work well together or vice versa?
Click to expand...


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## tsunamicontract

slickshift said:


> I've seen plenty of stain failure
> (Heck I've seen _Bleaching Oil_ failures)
> But they were nearly all just _sprayed_ on right over the old coating, mold, bugs, etc...
> 
> I've also seen stain that was on way too long w/o "fail"
> That's normal wear and tear though...not a premature failure
> Some of these H/Os think you only should be painting/staining once every 20 years


well it doesn't help when the can they got from lowes says it has a 20 year warranty on it . . .


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## slickshift

Yeah no kidding
Thanks Lowes


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## painterdude

Slick...how exactly does oil stain penetrate through latex paint? Latex paint is a surface coat. oil stain, whether is solidtone, semi transparent or transparent goes into the substrate. The vehicle oil actually goes into the wood and leaves the color on the surface and slightly into the wood. If you're talking latex stain, I stand by my assertion that it's not really stain. Maybe I'm out of the modern loop, but I gotta be show'd . Since I no longer work in the N.E. I haven't used stain on cedar houses, decks and roofs in many years. How bout helpin' out an old dauber. pd


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## DeanV

I think that for the first couple paint jobs, latex or oil stain do penetrate in and function as stain. Over time though and say 2-3 repaint cycles, I do not think there is much difference between stain and flat paint anymore. Too much millage build up.


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> hmm so you think it might not be a failure? I am fairly certain that the top coat had been on no longer than 4 years, much less in many spots. I think what was happening is the first coat of stain over the primer was breaking down so it did not matter how much or often you put stain over it. But you would not consider it a failure? The stain was some solid color latex from BM. I put a thick coat of peel bond over it and two coats of superpaint. I do not know how long it is going to last but it looks pretty good. Is the first coat of stain going to keep breaking down under my superpaint and peelbond until it starts to flake? Scott what would you have done in this situation? Stripping it all off (would have had to have been chem) was way out of the budget and time frame (wedding coming up). If you have paint and then stain on top of that then what do you do? Do stain and paint work well together or vice versa?
> 
> 
> 
> Tsunami
> 
> Sorry I have missed this thread. I believe that stain over paint is a bad idea. Also a bad idea over primer. If it would help, I can give you some visual proof of an experiment I have been observing on my property for 5 1/2 years involving latex stain application. Its interesting.
> 
> To answer your question, if I had a situation of stain being present on top of paint, I would sand and apply paint. A good paint, like BM Moorglo, something with excellent adhesion qualities. Yes, it might be somewhat compromised by the remaining stain film under it, but I would prefer that to throwing more stain at it.
Click to expand...


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## vermontpainter

Here's my field test. This is our shop, which was built 5 1/2 years ago. We prefinished all trim with Cabot ProVT (acrylic stain). The trim was all pine. EXCEPT for the jambs on the man doors which were factory pre-primed finger-jointed crap, which ought to not be used ever anywhere. Regretably, we applied the ProVT over the factory primer, and it failed quickly and almost universally down to bare wood. 

Here are some pics of window casings and corner boards that have been in harsh exposure for 5 1/2 years with just one coat on pine. It has faded and chalked a bit but no failure. Also, pics of the badly failing and falling apart door systems.


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## DeanV

The door casings are not a stain failure though, that is a classic primer failure because of the cheap %&*$ that the manufacturers put on the door casings. They will do that with top quality paint too, especially with no set back. I have had the primer fail casings for new homes I painted in the winter before I could come back in teh spring and paint them.


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## vermontpainter

I agree, anything would have failed on that crap. There was some poetic justice in seeing our pine trim with just one coat of ProVt waaay outperform the factory primed junk. Definitely not a stain failure. Just another case of the topcoat cant be any better than whats under it. Generally, I still wouldnt advocate putting stain on top of another non penetrating coating.


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## tsunamicontract

So Scott, what do you do about door jams like this? I just went up against this exactly same situation. And why is the factory primer so freaking thick and non-adhesive? And why do they insist on making these things with crappy, not good for exterior pine?


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> So Scott, what do you do about door jams like this? I just went up against this exactly same situation. And why is the factory primer so freaking thick and non-adhesive? And why do they insist on making these things with crappy, not good for exterior pine?


In my case, we are rebuilding the jamb systems this year with oil primed cedar and paint. Pain in the butt. Thats what it will take to beat this problem. The finger joint and factory primer issues, dont get me started...


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## tsunamicontract

Scott, do you guys do the rebuilding of the jams or sub it out? How much does something like cost for a door like that? Could you chem strip it, sand it, and use a slow dry oil or something?


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> Scott, do you guys do the rebuilding of the jams or sub it out? How much does something like cost for a door like that? Could you chem strip it, sand it, and use a slow dry oil or something?


We built the shop ourselves originally, but on an issue like this I will get a carpenter in here. I have lots of carpenter friends, so on this sort of problem, I will barter with a carpenter. The finger jointed material is so far gone that it would not be worth stripping and refinishing. And even if it was possible, the same thing would happen again. Its the nature of the finger jointed material...to fail.


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## slickshift

painterdude said:


> Slick...how exactly does oil stain penetrate through latex paint?


-dude
Sorry to say I really don't know
If I am using it in a case like that, the surface is usually well worn anyway, and then it's well sanded
Not all of the old surface is removed though....
I suppose it doesn't necessarily penetrate through, but rather penetrates enough

This is a time it'd be nice to have a Sikkens Rep around here, maybe they could get into it more


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## tsunamicontract

yah it really is, I wish they would just stop using the stuff, but must be cheap so I am sure they wont. You would think that after a while with failure after failure on everything from windows to brick mold to door jambs they would stop using it. I do know that the University WI Forest Products Research lab did studies that showed that using a clear wood preservative that didn't have so much wax in it that paint didn't stick would make a top coat last longer. I wish I had more of the actual research documents but I found it in an article. I can look up the article perhaps if you would be interested.


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## cadchick

Purdygirl said:


> A stain won't penetrate the wood at all if it has been previously painted, so what would be the point of using solid stain instead of paint? Seems kind of pointless. I'm on the team that says use paint over paint.


 
Yeah me too - I was kinda weirded by that post... :blink: no offence taken sorry


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## bikerboy

Here's a fly in the ointment. Cabot's PRO V.T. tells you to prime new wood with Cabot's "Problem Solver" before coating with PRO V.T. Oil primer under latex stain.


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## slickshift

bikerboy said:


> Here's a fly in the ointment. Cabot's PRO V.T. tells you to prime new wood with Cabot's "Problem Solver" before coating with PRO V.T. Oil primer under latex stain.


I'm not sure why that's a fly
You mean for the Don't Stain Over Paint people?
Well....yes, there are a few times when you are supposed to prime under stains


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## bikerboy

slickshift said:


> I'm not sure why that's a fly
> You mean for the Don't Stain Over Paint people?
> Well....yes, there are a few times when you are supposed to prime under stains


It's a combination of don't stain over paint, and wood absorbing the stain for optimum performance. I like it, but imho PRO V.T. is just paint.


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## NACE

There is no difference between latex stain and paint. Latex stain forms a trace or minimum film to allow the texture of the wood to show through. Paint forms a thinker film and masks the texture of the wood. Anything that forms a film is paint. When you build up systems with primer and latex stain, you are putting on a thin mil system that shows texture, has opacity, but less protection. After you have built up film thickness over the years, it has become a paint system that is thinner than a paint system, and subsequently would have to be stripped less often. Oil based stains are different in that they penetrate into a surface. Most or any oil based opaque stains start to form a film after a few coats. HO associate stain as "non peeling" Not true. If it formed a film, it can peel. It is really a matter of aesthetics, personal preference, and surface whether a stain or paint system is used. Stains do not last as long because there is less protection on the surface. Paint has to be stripped more often because it builds up more, but lasts longer becasue it offers more opacity, which keeps UV from degrading the wood. Latex stains do not penetrate a surface for the most part. Latex adheres to a surface. You want a coating system "in" the wood, not "on" the wood.


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## vermontpainter

NACE said:


> There is no difference between latex stain and paint. Latex stain forms a trace or minimum film to allow the texture of the wood to show through. Paint forms a thinker film and masks the texture of the wood.
> 
> _I would say that there is a pretty significant difference between these two performance characteristics. You are actually describing the differences between them._
> 
> Anything that forms a film is paint.
> 
> _Polyurethane, varnish, shellac, lacquer, that feeling you get on your teeth after eating a banana? How about too many coats of oil stain. Is that film now paint?_
> 
> When you build up systems with primer and latex stain, you are putting on a thin mil system that shows texture, has opacity, but less protection.
> 
> _Actually the primer takes away the opacity and the latex stain would be sitting on top if it acting like a paint, only stain does not have the same adhesion characteristics as paint._
> 
> Stains do not last as long because there is less protection on the surface.
> 
> _Stains do not fail as dramatically as paints and generally do not visually reach what a HO would perceive as failure as quickly. There is a big big difference between the paint falling off the house and the stain fading and chalking and needing to be freshened._ _Technically, then, stains may last longer. _
> 
> _I agree that protection in the wood is nice, ie penetrating oil stain. A brilliant product. However there are many situations where it is not the right choice. Ever put penetrating oil on smooth side of clapboards? Not much penetration there. Much better situation for primer and paint...adhesion._ _Some people just dont like the look of stain. They are conditioned to believe that a shell of paint is the best protection. And sometimes it is. _


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## JTP

Come to your own conclusions, I guess.

JTP

Cabot® PRO.V.T.® #0800 Series
Recommended Uses:
Cabot® PRO.V.T.® is an advanced-technology,
100% acrylic solid color stain formulated to
have superior performance properties for
the professional user. PRO.V.T. is a heavily
pigmented and exceptionally thick stain ––
delivering greater opacity than conventional
solid color stains. The result is smoother
spread, better coverage and superb handling
when applied by either brush or sprayer. In
addition, this product has been developed
and tested for use in colder temperatures,
extending the exterior maintenance season
for professionals in cooler climates.
Cabot PRO.V.T. covers previously painted or
stained surfaces in just one coat, improving
project completion time and maximizing
labor efficiencies. Cabot PRO.V.T. is so
advanced it does not require the use of a
primer coat on non-extractive-prone wood
species such as pine, white cedar or cypress.
This versatile, fade-resistant and water-repellent
exterior stain provides superior results when
applied on new or reconditioned wood siding
and shingles, cement siding, manufactured
hardboards, previously painted surfaces,
aluminum and pre-primed ferrous metal,
masonry, stucco and plywood panel siding.
Composition:
Advanced 100% acrylic, richly pigmented,
opaque stain.
Finish:
Dries to a natural, flat finish.
Colors:
Available in high-hiding Ultra White #0812
and four bases for tinting Cabot’s PRO.V.T.
standard and custom colors. Special shades
may be ordered in quantities of 50 gallons
or more at an extra charge of 25%.
Tinting/Intermixing:
Cabot’s PRO.V.T. is available in four tint
bases:White #0801, Neutral #0806,
Deep #0807 and Medium #0808, that
must be tinted with compatible
universal colorants.
Coverage:
On smooth surfaces covers approximately
300-400 square feet per gallon (7.4-9.8
square meters per liter) and on rough
surfaces, 200-300 square feet per gallon
(4.9-7.4 square meters per liter). These
rates will vary depending upon the porosity
of the surface.
Packaging/Containers:
Available in one-gallon and five-gallon
containers.
Restrictions:
Do not use PRO.V.T. Neutral, Deep and
Medium bases without the addition of
compatible universal colorants. Do not use
on decks and horizontal surfaces such as
roofs. Cabot Decking Stains, as well as
Cabot Solid Color 100% Acrylic Decking
Stains #1800, should be used. Knots should
be sealed with a high-quality knot sealer.
Do not thin these products.
Not intended for interior surfaces.
For exterior use only.

T E C H N I C A L D ATA
DESCRIPTION TECHNICAL DATA
TECHNICAL DATA
CABOT PRO.V.T. – #0800 SERIES
Surface Preparation:
Proper surface preparation is the key to
maximum stain performance. The durability
of this product can be impaired by an
unsound or poorly prepared surface. It is
very important that the surface be clean of
all dirt, mildew stains, loose wood fibers and
other foreign matter. Surfaces must be
structurally sound and absolutely dry.
(Moisture content must be below 15%, or
the wood must be exposed to dry weather
for a minimum of 3 to 5 days.) Previously
painted, stained or weathered wood
surfaces must be either sanded, scrubbed
with a detergent solution or Cabot
Problem-Solver® Wood Cleaner and a stiff
bristle brush, or power washed to remove
the surface layer of all loose wood fibers,
dirt, mildew stains, chalky residues and
other foreign matter. Use Cabot Problem-
Solver Wood Brightener to easily remove
tannin bleed, nail and metal rust stains, and
renew the wood’s appearance. New smooth
wood that is unseasoned or appears shiny
should be allowed to weather sufficiently
before staining, but generally no longer than
4 weeks. The use of Cabot’s Problem-Solver
Primer and Cabot’s Problem-Solver Primer
eliminates the need to weather new wood
and retards extractive bleeding in wood
species such as red cedar, fir and redwood.
Application of Coating:
Finishing: Stir thoroughly before and
occasionally during use. Intermix containers
of the same color. Apply two coats to
new wood for maximum protection.
Apply with a high-quality polyester brush,
roller or spray. When spraying, always
backbrush for optimal results. Maintain a
wet edge to avoid lap marks. Restain every
6-8 years for best appearance.
Spray Application: Recommended tip sizes
and adjustments for airless spray application
are 0.017”- 0.021” at 1800-2000 PSI with
a fan width of 5-8 inches. When using HVLP
spray equipment, see manual for proper
set-up instructions. If you must spray,
always backbrush immediately after each
section is coated to ensure proper coverage.
Number of Coats: Apply two coats on new
wood for maximum protection. Restain
depending on exposure or wear every
6-8 years for best appearance.
Precautions:
Do not apply in direct sunlight, to hot
surfaces, or when air or surface temperature
is below 35°F (1.7°C) or may fall below
35°F (1.7°C) for 24 hours after application.
Do not apply over wet or damp surfaces or
when rain is imminent. Do not thin.
Protect stored containers from
freezing. Do not use on decks or
other horizontal surfaces.
For exterior use only.
Cabot Wood Care Products are sold
throughout the United States and Canada.
For a list of Cabot dealer locations, please
contact Cabot’s Technical Services & Support
at 1-800-US-STAIN.
If this product does not perform as stated
on the label after you apply it according
to label directions, Samuel Cabot
Incorporated will either replace this product
or refund its purchase price, at its option.
Samuel Cabot Incorporated disclaims all
other implied or expressed warranties.
Samuel Cabot Incorporated will not provide
or pay for labor for removal or application
of the product. This warranty excludes all
incidental or consequential damages. This
warranty gives you specific legal rights, and
you may have other rights which vary from
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Minimal because Cabot’s PRO.V.T. resists
cracking, peeling and blistering. Depending
upon exposure and wear, evaluate restaining
needs every 6-8 years.


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## vermontpainter

JT

Good luck at the "Longest Post In History" Awards!

Seriously, good info. I like Provt, and as my pics illustrate, my one coat on pine has performed well in harsh Vermont exposure. No complaints.


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## JTP

vermontpainter said:


> JT
> 
> Good luck at the "Longest Post In History" Awards!
> 
> Seriously, good info. I like Provt, and as my pics illustrate, my one coat on pine has performed well in harsh Vermont exposure. No complaints.


Link to Cabot's 0800 Series Product-- IOW--ProVT

http://www.cabotstain.com/pdf/PROV0800.pdf

JTP


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## painterdude

Vermont...hey, not here to debate but I still contend that latex stain is nothing more than thinned paint..water is still the vehicle. As for putting oil stain on clapboard, yea it'd work before it was put on to the house, but why would anyone use stain there. Cedar panels or shakes, thats all I ever used it on. I figure you were just making a point. I think what confuses the newbies is that few of them have ever dealt with oil stains or paints(oil). As to the earlier post about using oil primer under latex paint...absolutely. Never found a latex primer that was really that good. 1-2-3 the best of the lot, but used in inside only. Exterior primer, slow drying oil every time. 'course that was a long time ago as since in Fla its mostly stucco or aluminum fasia and soffit. you know what you're talking about...keep helping. pd


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## frankcanpaint

*solid hide stains*

Paint chemists I have consulted with do not recommend acrylic stain over oil stain as a coating system. There is very little sealing ability in solid oil stain. It can prevent some of tannin from bleeding thru but not enough to recommend this as a system for painting cedar. Weathered cedar can be very porous and most of the binder in the stain is absorbed into the wood leaving very little on the surface which can result in tannin still bleeding thru. 
Stain has a high proportion of pigment to binder (which is why it has that flat chalky appearance) and so when a good portion of the binder is absorbed into the wood the remaining binder is left to hold all that pigment together leaving a coating with low adhesive strength on a chalky surface. (cohesive strength means holding pigment particles together as opposed to adhesive which bonds to the surface). The resulting chalkiness does not provide a good surface for the acrylic topcoat to adhere to and is therefore one reason why acrylic over oil stain is not a recommended system.
If tannin bleed is the issue when covering new cedar then slow oil primer or oil base stain blocking primer or even latex stain blocking primer is recommended.
Applying acrylic stain to a previously painted or stained surface is also recommended because the previously painted surface has weathered for at least a year and is considered a repaint situation. This is all according to the paint chemist.
Now this being said I personally prefer to do restains rather than repaints because the prep is so much easier. a big ass orbital sander can make mincemeat out of the remaining flaking coating rather than the effort and time needed to scrape coats of paint. 
If it's new cedar I thin my tinted alkyd primer about 15%-20% and my first coat is absorbed into the cedar with no backrolling/brushing necessary. I next spray one or maybe two topcoats of floodpro solid colour deck and siding finish and backroll/brush. if it's a restain I will usually spot prime with oil primer where bare wood is exposed and cover with flood pro.
I would use flood pro deck and siding finish(stain) over paint only after a thorough sand/prep because of its emulsa bond quality 
Cheers
Frank


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## vermontpainter

frankcanpaint said:


> Paint chemists I have consulted with do not recommend acrylic stain over oil stain as a coating system. There is very little sealing ability in solid oil stain. It can prevent some of tannin from bleeding thru but not enough to recommend this as a system for painting cedar.
> Cheers
> Frank


A stain, primer or any product should not be rated on its ability to seal based solely on how well it hides tannin bleed. Tannin bleed is most common to red cedar, and that does not represent enough of the siding species population as a whole to make such a generalization. Tannin bleed is one of those extreme phenomena that we encounter that does not represent the "whole" of exterior product performance expectations. Oil stain by definition is a penetrator, and there is really no better way to seal wood than to have penetration. Oil stain is even better at sealing than oil primer because it is less viscous and more likely to go deeper into the wood. 

Further, acrylic stain works just fine over weathered oil stain. Acrylic stain has adhesion qualities that are sufficient for bare wood, so previously oil stained wood makes a perfectly acceptable base coat for acrylic stain, if it is clean and ready to be covered. Chemists understand chemistry. Painters understand product application and performance. There is no substitute for years of applying product and monitoring performance from year to year.


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## frankcanpaint

*stain/paint*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *vermontpainte*r
A stain, primer or any product should not be rated on its ability to seal based solely on how well it hides tannin bleed.

Scott you're jumping the gun here cause you somehow missed the other half of my response regarding adhesion,
Stain has a high proportion of pigment to binder (which is why it has that flat chalky appearance) and so when a good portion of the binder is absorbed into the wood the remaining binder is left to hold all that pigment together leaving a coating with low adhesive strength on a chalky surface. (cohesive strength means holding pigment particles together as opposed to adhesive which bonds to the surface). The resulting chalkiness does not provide a good surface for the acrylic topcoat to adhere to and is therefore one reason why acrylic over oil stain is not a recommended system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *vermontpainte*r
Oil stain is even better at sealing than oil primer because it is less viscous and more likely to go deeper into the wood. 

Who is generalizing?
Primers are formulated with penetrating, sealing and adhesion abilities and with chemical driers. I also thin my primer to enhance its penetrating ability.
Oil stain also takes time before it dries and is one of the reasons Cabot suggest using its oil primer under its latex stain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *vermontpainte*r
Chemists understand chemistry. Painters understand product application and performance. There is no substitute for years of applying product and monitoring performance from year to year.

Actually it is both chemists and painters working together. I know a respected painter/wood finisher who works with a major company paint rep and chemist testing waterborne clear coats. Outside knowledge bases are necessary so that we can continue to learn as the industry evolves. I do agree that monitoring our product use in different conditions over time is also important.
Frank_____________
_____


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## vermontpainter

frankcanpaint said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vermontpainte*r
> A stain, primer or any product should not be rated on its ability to seal based solely on how well it hides tannin bleed.
> 
> Scott you're jumping the gun here cause you somehow missed the other half of my response regarding adhesion,
> Stain has a high proportion of pigment to binder (which is why it has that flat chalky appearance) and so when a good portion of the binder is absorbed into the wood the remaining binder is left to hold all that pigment together leaving a coating with low adhesive strength on a chalky surface. (cohesive strength means holding pigment particles together as opposed to adhesive which bonds to the surface). The resulting chalkiness does not provide a good surface for the acrylic topcoat to adhere to and is therefore one reason why acrylic over oil stain is not a recommended system.
> 
> Frank
> 
> Perhaps part of the equation is that, at least around Vermont, penetrating oil stain is used mostly on siding where the rough face is exposed. In this case, although chemists would consider it questionable cohesive strength, there is still plenty of "tooth" by virtue of the rough substrate that acrylic stain over oil stain finds plenty of adhesion. I have observed cases where this application has withstood harsh exposures with no sign of deterioration for years. I should have been more specific that regardless of species (generally pine, cedar or spruce on houses or barns), oil stain is a preferable initial application and on repainting, acrylic does better. I have had other cases where I kept throwing more oil stain on every 4 years and always end up in the same place. It is the color retention deficiency (which I think you describe well) that makes me avoid repainting with oil stain on oil stain.
> 
> I dont discount your chemists' advice, but as we all know, there are so many situations where we have to call upon our field experience to make tough product calls. We all tend to find what works and holds up over time, and alot of it would leave the chemists scratching their heads.
> 
> I must have misunderstood that it seemed much of your argument was based on tannin bleed properties, which as I mentioned - and especially on exposed rough face siding - is not the fundamental obstacle a product has to overcome. Thanks for the clarification.


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## frankcanpaint

*paint/stain*

Originally Posted by *vermontpainter*
"...around Vermont, penetrating oil stain is used mostly on siding where the rough face is exposed. In this case, although chemists would consider it questionable cohesive strength, there is still plenty of "tooth" by virtue of the rough substrate that acrylic stain over oil stain finds plenty of adhesion.... there are so many situations where we have to call upon our field experience to make tough product calls. We all tend to find what works and holds up over time, and alot of it would leave the chemists scratching their heads."

Scott, yeah I do things differently but I don't discount your hard won experience and I realize that there are a number of solutions to the same problem.


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## vermontpainter

frankcanpaint said:


> Originally Posted by *vermontpainter*
> "...around Vermont, penetrating oil stain is used mostly on siding where the rough face is exposed. In this case, although chemists would consider it questionable cohesive strength, there is still plenty of "tooth" by virtue of the rough substrate that acrylic stain over oil stain finds plenty of adhesion.... there are so many situations where we have to call upon our field experience to make tough product calls. We all tend to find what works and holds up over time, and alot of it would leave the chemists scratching their heads."
> 
> Scott, yeah I do things differently but I don't discount your hard won experience and I realize that there are a number of solutions to the same problem.


Frank

I have appreciated your well-written and thought out posts, so dont change a thing! None of us agree on everything. And I dont even think you and I are disagreeing here...just bringing different ideas to the same topic.


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## frankcanpaint

I wasn't tapping out Scott I was just saying that there are different ways to skin a cat. And although I might not follow your method if your experience proves that it works for you then enough said about that topic. 
Cheers
frank


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