# Bubbles in hvlp finish



## Mtaylor (Aug 22, 2019)

New to the forum and new to spraying in general so sorry in advance If I start asking stupid questions. I’m a carpenter by trade but for the last year I’ve been starting to work on my finishing skills. I got tired of turning down jobs because HO’s wanted me to paint built in’s or wall paneling after install. I wasn’t confident enough in my ability to give them that “factory finish” look. 
A brush doesn’t provide the look or efficiency I need so I bought a mini mite 4 and have been teaching myself to spray. 

Been working on a custom shoe rack I built and have hit a problem. I primed the wood with SW blocking oil primer sanded smooth then sprayed Wb pro classic with my hvlp. The finish looks smooth but you can feel bubbles in it that didn’t pop while drying. I sprayed with my new mini mite 4 but had the same issue when I did some of my own cabinets as a test run with a cheap home right hvlp. I couldn’t remedy it so I had to get it the best I could an live with it which infuriated me. Wouldn’t dare take it to a customer and say here is your final product! 
I don’t know if it’s poor technique, prep, or porous primer. Every time I sand I then vac all dust then wipe with a tack cloth so I feel it’s pretty clean. On the cabinets I went as far as wiping each door with DNA after the tack cloth but still bubbles. 
I can see the bubbles come up after I spray. Some pop but a lot do not and dry to little nibs. 
Thinner coats feel gritty and heavier coats haven’t worked either. What am I doing wrong?!?! I’ve tried floeteol & 
no floeteol but still the same. 

I’m starting to run out of options and don’t want to have to resort to paying someone to finish it for me but I don’t feel comfortable with the quality Any suggestions will be much appreciated!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

can a 4 stage push latex? Ive only had success with the 5 stage turbines.


Really nice results with 1wb.200 undercoater and cabinetcoat unthinned out of graco 9.0


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Did you buy through Roger Phelps or Phelps refinishing. He has a lot of good info about Fuji.


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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

It's not you. That product gets microbubbles. Use KemAqua+ 
It's thin, drys in an hour, can stack your work next morning. It's a waterborne pigmented lacquer.Somewhat finicky to spray for a beginner so spray horizontal and you'll be fine.
I do cabinets everyday. It's all I use now.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Never sprayed acrylic pro classic. 

How or how much did you thin and with what? 

I know if you thin too much you can get bubbles with some products with too much water. Sounds counter intuitive but water can increase the surface tension of coatings. 

In this instance they typically crater as drying but while experimenting I have seen them not pop and require sanding. 

It's been mentioned on here numerous times proclassic has a rough feel even if laid on with an airless.


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## Mtaylor (Aug 22, 2019)

No I bought it from paint sprayers plus. Extremely nice guy and seemed very knowledgeable. I was told maybe over atomization so I increased the amount of fluid but got more bubbles. I have played with the thinning ratio trying everywhere between 10-20 percent distilled water. 10 percent was ok but a little orange peel. Around 15 percent looks and feels great except for all of the bubbles. Areas that don’t have the small bubbles feel like glass. 
Now for my stupid question. Should I be including the amount of floeteol in my thinning percentage? Or if I want 15% put 15% water and then the floetrol? I keep seeing conflicting info online. Some say it is not a thinner so thin to your liking then add it in separate.


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## Mtaylor (Aug 22, 2019)

I’ve been seeing things about kem aqua everywhere and how great it is so I’ve been very curious but I don’t know anything about water based lacquer or lacquer in general so I’ve been hesitant. How easy is the clean up?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

You might want to leave off using a tack-cloth. There’s some evidence they’ll leave a residue that’s incompatible with water borne coatings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I use my 18v cordless blower in the field and a clean old paint brush. I then tack with a damp microfiber. 

I've had good luck with Target coatings 6500. I have a bm location near me that stocks and tints their products. 

The waterborne lacquer products will be near the correct viscosity for hvlp use. Target coatings has a retarder and a cross linker available for their products. I'm sure there are newer or better products out there. 

Unfortunately, temp and humidity play a role in how these perform when spraying. So as it's been said many times on here, unless spraying in a controlled shop environment, you will need to test and apply alot and gain experience until you can make adjustments and anticipate how products will behave in a variety of conditions. And even then.

I will say this. If spraying pieces horizontally, don't be afraid of wetting out the piece with the hvlp. I still use breakthrough and cabinet coat a bit and these will hvlp spray pretty well with a smidge of distilled water. 

Low voc Breakthrough especially will look pretty orange peely right off the gun. Walk away. It typically looks pretty bad off the gun and worse as it's in various stages of drying. However I find it will dry down to a nice flat tight film. Painted two previously coated entrance doors in wrought iron black satin with the hvlp recently. They dried down and looked smoother(ie basically zero orange peel) than the brand new factory finished black door that was just installed at the same job. Unfortunately if spraying vertically its a different ballgame and more challenging. 

Best advice is to stay with one or two products and learn to spray them. Then go from there. Eventually it should click once you spray enough. A wet film thickness gauge and some test pieces will help you to know what a proper coat looks like for a product. Then spray a vertical sample and see how and If it'll hang.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Don't use floetrol with ProClassic or any new type hybrid coatings. Use XIM reducer. Spraying is hard, especially small pieces with lots of angles. You are better off spraying pieces that are not connected to reduce the build up. Then when dry, spray the adjoining piece. Take your time, wb lacquer is nice and better to spray, but very light coats.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

All very good advice here. Also, I find the hvlp can dry latex paint as it goes on, because of the air, so a little more difficult for the paint to flow out.
I was having same troubles with the BM Advance last summer. I figured out it was a combination of very low humid weather, plus not letting the paint settle after mixing which pumps alot of bubbles into the product.
Having a cup gun with the paint sloshing around in it will probably add to this for sure.
Maybe consider also getting a small pressure pot. I use atleast a 2.0 tip on my compressor driven hvlp. I have my eye on the Graco 9.5 contractor series..


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

If you are not running the 3m pps system or equivalent then you should look into that first. Spray all angles, easier cleanup, two different built in filter meshes available, no sloshing of finish. I reuse mine a few times but it's easier to throw the liner in the wash bucket then a hard cup. One swipe with a microfiber in the wash bucket and it's clean. Shake the filter lid around and it's clean. Rinse for 5 secs if desired under fresh water to remove residue. 

Pressure pot would be nice for large projects but then cleanup is the same or more than an airless so I'd just shoot it with airless or AAA. 



finishesbykevyn said:


> All very good advice here. Also, I find the hvlp can dry latex paint as it goes on, because of the air, so a little more difficult for the paint to flow out.
> I was having same troubles with the BM Advance last summer. I figured out it was a combination of very low humid weather, plus not letting the paint settle after mixing which pumps alot of bubbles into the product.
> Having a cup gun with the paint sloshing around in it will probably add to this for sure.
> Maybe consider also getting a small pressure pot. I use atleast a 2.0 tip on my compressor driven hvlp. I have my eye on the Graco 9.5 contractor series..


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## walldog (Jul 28, 2011)

I sprayed my bathroom vanities with Breakthrough and used a Capspray 95 with the needle set #5. My first 2 coats I went light but did not like the finish which looked like I rolled the doors with a sponge roller. So I went heavier/wetter and that’s when I got little air bubbles but a little smoother finish but not as smooth as I would of liked. I’m also suspicious of the tack cloth I used. 
I have an order of Kem Aqua+ coming in which I’ll try and see if I have better luck with it and spray my kitchen cabinets. I keep kicking myself for not buying the Capspray 105 or 115. Might of given me a lot better finish with better atomization. Hoping the Kem Aqua will lay better since it’s thinner.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

walldog said:


> I sprayed my bathroom vanities with Breakthrough and used a Capspray 95 with the needle set #5. My first 2 coats I went light but did not like the finish which looked like I rolled the doors with a sponge roller. So I went heavier/wetter and that’s when I got little air bubbles but a little smoother finish but not as smooth as I would of liked. I’m also suspicious of the tack cloth I used.
> I have an order of Kem Aqua+ coming in which I’ll try and see if I have better luck with it and spray my kitchen cabinets. I keep kicking myself for not buying the Capspray 105 or 115. Might of given me a lot better finish with better atomization. Hoping the Kem Aqua will lay better since it’s thinner.


I do a lot of fine finish spray work, water based and alkyds, and I use a tack for everything. I have never had an issue with tack residue causing problems with the top coat. I do believe the trick is to use very light pressure as opposed to really forcing it down hard onto the surface - in other words, pretty much the way a TC should be used in any situation.


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## walldog (Jul 28, 2011)

I see what you mean RH. It makes sense that when I was spraying light coats there was no issue. Unfortunately it seems like heavy coats was the only way I could get the finish to lay smoother. Arizona dry hot weather might of not helped when using Breakthrough that tends to dry fast.
Do you think I’ll have better luck with Kem Aqua+ still using my 4stage Capspray ? The finish on my vanities isn’t bad and not noticeable because they are lowers but I am afraid of my kitchen uppers that will have a lot of light bouncing off of them.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> All very good advice here. Also, I find the hvlp can dry latex paint as it goes on, because of the air, so a little more difficult for the paint to flow out.
> I was having same troubles with the BM Advance last summer. I figured out it was a combination of very low humid weather, plus not letting the paint settle after mixing which pumps alot of bubbles into the product.
> Having a cup gun with the paint sloshing around in it will probably add to this for sure.
> Maybe consider also getting a small pressure pot. I use atleast a 2.0 tip on my compressor driven hvlp. I have my eye on the Graco 9.5 contractor series..



I have heard adding a cap full of mineral spirits to advance has solved micro bubbles with advance for some guys around here.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

walldog said:


> I see what you mean RH. It makes sense that when I was spraying light coats there was no issue. Unfortunately it seems like heavy coats was the only way I could get the finish to lay smoother. Arizona dry hot weather might of not helped when using Breakthrough that tends to dry fast.
> Do you think I’ll have better luck with Kem Aqua+ still using my 4stage Capspray ? The finish on my vanities isn’t bad and not noticeable because they are lowers but I am afraid of my kitchen uppers that will have a lot of light bouncing off of them.


I can’t speak to Kem Aqua+ - never used it. Though some here claim success, I never had it spraying latexes or hybrids through my four stage HVLP. They need to be thinned too much. But I did get passable results spraying with SW’s Pro Industrial Multi Surface enamel - a product that is pretty thin out of the can and designed to primarily be sprayed.

Yes, too much heat will be your enemy.

I have also sprayed alkyds with success since they seem to accept thinning better, at least IMO.

If I were to get into doing a lot more cabinet work, I would look into the white pigmented waterbased lacquers. They sound like something that would spray well through a HVLP. Emtech 6500 (Target Coatings) may be worth checking out. I haven’t used that particular product of theirs but have used others that I really liked.


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## Ross (Jul 10, 2011)

Mtaylor said:


> New to the forum and new to spraying in general so sorry in advance If I start asking stupid questions. I’m a carpenter by trade but for the last year I’ve been starting to work on my finishing skills. I got tired of turning down jobs because HO’s wanted me to paint built in’s or wall paneling after install. I wasn’t confident enough in my ability to give them that “factory finish” look.
> A brush doesn’t provide the look or efficiency I need so I bought a mini mite 4 and have been teaching myself to spray.
> 
> Been working on a custom shoe rack I built and have hit a problem. I primed the wood with SW blocking oil primer sanded smooth then sprayed Wb pro classic with my hvlp. The finish looks smooth but you can feel bubbles in it that didn’t pop while drying. I sprayed with my new mini mite 4 but had the same issue when I did some of my own cabinets as a test run with a cheap home right hvlp. I couldn’t remedy it so I had to get it the best I could an live with it which infuriated me. Wouldn’t dare take it to a customer and say here is your final product!
> ...


use lacquer solvent base base coat


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## Ross (Jul 10, 2011)

Ross said:


> use lacquer solvent base base coat


can lak or goody


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## Ross (Jul 10, 2011)

and top coat water base lacquer


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## Ross (Jul 10, 2011)

we have never problems with that


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## Ross (Jul 10, 2011)

highly recommend


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I've heard that the Renner, CIC and Milesi, 1K and 2k poly coatings are great waterborne finishes, but spendy. 

Adding the hardner/catalyst makes the topcoat super tough.

The cream of the crop of HVLP sprayers is the Apollo Precision 5. Get the 2 quart remote pot with a compressor.Their 7700 HVLP gun produces the best finish on the turbine market . The rig itself has variable speed pressure. It also runs cooler than the others.


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