# Gel Stain on Stairs and handrail.



## finishesbykevyn

I know there has been a few threads on Gel Stains over the years, but didn't answer all my questions on the subject. 
I did a few samples on Oak doors in the shop( which I'll attach.) I've been getting requests lately on Refinishing in Stain as apposed to paint but realize that sanding all the way back to bare wood is soo much more work.. Not being super experienced in the Stain department myself, but am constantly learning and experimenting.
With these door samples(which I thought turned out nice) I basically just scuff sanded with orbital and block sander, applied 1 thick coat of Old Master's Gel Stain. Let it sit for about 5 mins. Lightly wipe with a cotten cloth and then dry brushed to a desired look. I then applied 2 coats of Saman Polyurethane Clear.
My questions are:
- What would be the longevity of this procedure. Is it doomed to fail? I figure this to be a much more price consious solution to an entire strip. (Around same price as painting) But Not sure the actual bonding power of the Gel Stain over a previous clear coat..
- How much more work would it actually be(I have no idea), or would it even be worth it to strip down the treads and hand rails on a 2 story residential oak stairwell to bare wood in preparation for staining. Not even sure I'm interested in the gruling task on a standard run of the mill setup. (Will also attach pictures) Give it to me!


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## Masterwork

That would be a ton of work. I have no questions about staining, but how the hell would you sand/strip it all? That would take a lot of work.

As for staining over another clear coat, I would not do that. I think there would be issues with the new clear coat bonding with the stain trapped between. Maybe someone else knows more, though. 

Also, those brush marks stand out quite a bit. Try brushing the stain on, then wiping the brush off on a rag, and using the dirty brush to remove the stain.


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I know there has been a few threads on Gel Stains over the years, but didn't answer all my questions on the subject.
> I did a few samples on Oak doors in the shop( which I'll attach.) I've been getting requests lately on Refinishing in Stain as apposed to paint but realize that sanding all the way back to bare wood is soo much more work.. Not being super experienced in the Stain department myself, but am constantly learning and experimenting.
> With these door samples(which I thought turned out nice) I basically just scuff sanded with orbital and block sander, applied 1 thick coat of Old Master's Gel Stain. Let it sit for about 5 mins. Lightly wipe with a cotten cloth and then dry brushed to a desired look. I then applied 2 coats of Saman Polyurethane Clear.
> My questions are:
> 
> What would be the longevity of this procedure. Is it doomed to fail? I figure this to be a much more price consious solution to an entire strip. (Around same price as painting) But Not sure the actual bonding power of the Gel Stain over a previous clear coat..
> How much more work would it actually be(I have no idea), or would it even be worth it to strip down the treads and hand rails on a 2 story residential oak stairwell to bare wood in preparation for staining. Not even sure I'm interested in the gruling task on a standard run of the mill setup. (Will also attach pictures) Give it to me!


(Disclaimer - I am learning stain/varnish also)

-Scuff sanding and gel coat should be fine, followed by clear on top. I don't know Samans, so I can't speak to compatibility.

-I would be more inclined to apply a few really thin coats of gel stain rather than one heavy coat- (apply then wipe off immediately - not let it sit), and build up the color slowly. Till you get a feel for how you want it to look like. Thats how I refurb fiberglass doors, build up gel-stain color slowly, then top-coat w/ spar. (Manufacturers don't recommend stripping doors , but scuff sanding and stain/varnish holds up well even outside).

*One thing you might try (experiment with) to even out the stain, is to put some stain/colorant into the clear, and then lightly spray a few thin coats. It tints the clear, and evens out the unevenness. It can make a bad stain job look like a good one.


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## Redux

Gel stain over existing finishes on wear surfaces such treads is just asking for trouble. Why not sub out the tread and handrail sanding/prep to a reputable hardwood flooring contractor?...a good floor sander could tear through that in no time..


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## mug

Redux said:


> Gel stain over existing finishes on wear surfaces such treads is just asking for trouble. Why not sub out the tread and handrail sanding/prep to a reputable hardwood flooring contractor?...a good floor sander could tear through that in no time..


Yes these guys do a whole house in no time.


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## Holland

Handrails and Spindels would be fine, probably no for treads.


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## finishesbykevyn

Redux said:


> Gel stain over existing finishes on wear surfaces such treads is just asking for trouble. Why not sub out the tread and handrail sanding/prep to a reputable hardwood flooring contractor?...a good floor sander could tear through that in no time..


 I was afraid you would say that, and can appreciate your honesty!. I've only stained Bare wood treads in the past, as well as painted over old clear finishes with a bonding primer and Advance actually. Haven't had any call backs from that method yet..
It's more the detailed stuff like the Newel Posts and handrails that would be the time consuming part of Stripping. I have No doubt that the flat surfaces like the treads would be a breeze. Although, I guess the Newel Posts could just get painted(or replaced)also. Client wants it to be a 2 tone. Stain on the Rails, Newel Posts and Treads. Paint on the spindles and risers.. She was under the impression that I could stain it for the same price as paint. I told her it would probably be double.. Pretty sure I talked myself out of a job and probably for the best. Heres a pic of how I usually Paint them..


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> (Disclaimer - I am learning stain/varnish also)
> 
> -Scuff sanding and gel coat should be fine, followed by clear on top. I don't know Samans, so I can't speak to compatibility.
> 
> -I would be more inclined to apply a few really thin coats of gel stain rather than one heavy coat- (apply then wipe off immediately - not let it sit), and build up the color slowly. Till you get a feel for how you want it to look like. Thats how I refurb fiberglass doors, build up gel-stain color slowly, then top-coat w/ spar. (Manufacturers don't recommend stripping doors , but scuff sanding and stain/varnish holds up well even outside).
> 
> *One thing you might try (experiment with) to even out the stain, is to put some stain/colorant into the clear, and then lightly spray a few thin coats. It tints the clear, and evens out the unevenness. It can make a bad stain job look like a good one.


 I tried the multiple coat thing with the Gel and it started to bite into itself looking worse. Which is why I tried the 1 coat with dry brushing. I've also tried those polyshade products. They seem to take multiple coats also. although 3 coats of Polyshade would be no more work than painting I suppose..Wonder how that would look/hold up on Stairs. Would it stick better than the Gel Stain I wonder?


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> I tried the multiple coat thing with the Gel and it started to bite into itself looking worse. Which is why I tried the 1 coat with dry brushing. I've also tried those polyshade products. They seem to take multiple coats also. although 3 coats of Polyshade would be no more work than painting I suppose..Wonder how that would look/hold up on Stairs. Would it stick better than the Gel Stain I wonder?


Why not just shoot the doors with toner? It’s so much easier than messing around with a gel stain and looks much better..

Although I’ve rarely used waterborne clears for toners, General Finishes has a clip illustrating both brushed (not advisable) and sprayed.


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I tried the multiple coat thing with the Gel and it started to bite into itself looking worse. Which is why I tried the 1 coat with dry brushing. I've also tried those polyshade products. They seem to take multiple coats also. although 3 coats of Polyshade would be no more work than painting I suppose..Wonder how that would look/hold up on Stairs. Would it stick better than the Gel Stain I wonder?


Gel Stain (oil based) needs to dry overnight. I have only ever used it on (damaged) Fiberglass doors, but have done many of them, and layering (glazing) was not a problem when completely dry. It’s a slow process, and difficult to keep the costs from exceeding the cost of a new door, but subtlety can be achieved that way if necessary.


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## celicaxx

Redux said:


> Why not just shoot the doors with toner? It’s so much easier than messing around with a gel stain and looks much better..
> 
> Although I’ve rarely used waterborne clears for toners, General Finishes has a clip illustrating both brushed (not advisable) and sprayed.


Well, I learned something new. 

I would normally use Polyshades for a situation like that, but this seems like a better (but pretty similar in concept) solution. That said, I got a bunch of Polyshades already around, but this would be useful for better color selection, as Polyshades color selection is fairly limited. Of course everyone hates Minwax and SW, too.


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## cocomonkeynuts

celicaxx said:


> Well, I learned something new.
> 
> I would normally use Polyshades for a situation like that, but this seems like a better (but pretty similar in concept) solution. That said, I got a bunch of Polyshades already around, but this would be useful for better color selection, as Polyshades color selection is fairly limited. Of course everyone hates Minwax and SW, too.


I would also recommend using the GF dyes as toners . transtint dyes also work well too. pigmented clears will obscure the grain and more prone to highlighting high/low spots in the clear.


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## Redux

When toning, I prefer layering and building up color gradually, using dyes incorporated into clears, rather than pigment. Just gotta make certain to use UV fade resistant/metal complex dyes similar to the two Coco mentioned..although they do fade to a degree, more so than pigmented toners, but not as much as straight up aniline dye toners. 

Below is aniline dye fade after 10 years exposure to copious amounts of sunlight compared to the control board which received moderate exposure over the same 10 year period. The color essentially disappeared..


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## finishesbykevyn

I would consider using a toner on doors in my shop or a controlled environment, but doubt it would be as feasible on a handrail and steps in a pre painted, residential open concept situation. 
Why would this be any better or quicker than 1 coat Gel stain and 2 coat poly clear. The Gel Stain theoretically is a polyurethane oil gel. It really should have bonding power no?? Has anyone used the Saman 2 in 1 product?


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I would consider using a toner on doors in my shop or a controlled environment, but doubt it would be as feasible on a handrail and steps in a pre painted, residential open concept situation.
> Why would this be any better or quicker than 1 coat Gel stain and 2 coat poly clear. The Gel Stain theoretically is a polyurethane oil gel. It really should have bonding power no?? Has anyone used the Saman 2 in 1 product?


One coat of Gel stain looks bad. unless you can make it look better, plan on multiple thin coats to achieve uniformity. One coat, come back and do another coat, etc...


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> One coat of Gel stain looks bad. unless you can make it look better, plan on multiple thin coats to achieve uniformity. One coat, come back and do another coat, etc...


 The pictures I posted is 1 coat dry brushed to liking. I figure if I have to do multiple coats, it's not worth it. May as well just strip it.


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## celicaxx

finishesbykevyn said:


> I would consider using a toner on doors in my shop or a controlled environment, but doubt it would be as feasible on a handrail and steps in a pre painted, residential open concept situation.
> Why would this be any better or quicker than 1 coat Gel stain and 2 coat poly clear. The Gel Stain theoretically is a polyurethane oil gel. It really should have bonding power no?? Has anyone used the Saman 2 in 1 product?


They already do exist, but for whatever reason most people don't like the products. I think they're fine if you manage expectations. You have Minwax Polyshades, Zar used to make one (they apparently don't now?), and Varathane (Rustoleum) makes some now, too. Varathane 1 qt. Antique Walnut Gloss Oil-Based Interior Stain and Polyurethane-339604 - The Home Depot This is the Varathane one, as you can see a bunch of DIYers got decent results. 

I've used a lot of Minwax Polyshades mainly for my own DIY stuff and really minor things for customers (building shelves and giving them a quick coat of something) and the misconception people have when using it is it's not like using a real poly or a stain. It's pretty much like brushing clear oil based paint around, and you need to watch your brush strokes, lay off, watch for runs, etc. If you treat the products like that they tend to work, but brushed out it still likely won't look sprayed unless it's on a horizontal surface like a table where you can do a thick layer and leave it alone. Sprayed you'd probably avoid a lot of the issues entirely, and though most say not to reduce you likely could. For the darker espresso color you did, I think Minwax Polyshades Espresso satin would have been perfect, it's almost that exact color. For the treads even it probably would work as well, though they don't recommend it on stairs. 

I think the products get a lot of flack as they're marketed mainly to DIYs and people don't treat them like paint but like stain or poly, but I think they have a place.


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## mariec

finishesbykevyn said:


> I know there has been a few threads on Gel Stains over the years, but didn't answer all my questions on the subject.
> I did a few samples on Oak doors in the shop( which I'll attach.) I've been getting requests lately on Refinishing in Stain as apposed to paint but realize that sanding all the way back to bare wood is soo much more work.. Not being super experienced in the Stain department myself, but am constantly learning and experimenting.
> With these door samples(which I thought turned out nice) I basically just scuff sanded with orbital and block sander, applied 1 thick coat of Old Master's Gel Stain. Let it sit for about 5 mins. Lightly wipe with a cotten cloth and then dry brushed to a desired look. I then applied 2 coats of Saman Polyurethane Clear.
> My questions are:
> 
> What would be the longevity of this procedure. Is it doomed to fail? I figure this to be a much more price consious solution to an entire strip. (Around same price as painting) But Not sure the actual bonding power of the Gel Stain over a previous clear coat..
> How much more work would it actually be(I have no idea), or would it even be worth it to strip down the treads and hand rails on a 2 story residential oak stairwell to bare wood in preparation for staining. Not even sure I'm interested in the gruling task on a standard run of the mill setup. (Will also attach pictures) Give it to me!


Hi Kevyn - What did you eventually decide to do on the stairs? How did it work out? I have similar stairs that I want to change from highly polyurethaned Oak to a Charcoal grey and wondering if Old Masters gel stain would be a good option. I've worked with that before on doors and mouldings, but never stairs - their website says it's great for "vertical surfaces" but does not mention stairs. Just curious what you ended up doing and how it worked out. Thanks very much!


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## finishesbykevyn

mariec said:


> Hi Kevyn - What did you eventually decide to do on the stairs? How did it work out? I have similar stairs that I want to change from highly polyurethaned Oak to a Charcoal grey and wondering if Old Masters gel stain would be a good option. I've worked with that before on doors and mouldings, but never stairs - their website says it's great for "vertical surfaces" but does not mention stairs. Just curious what you ended up doing and how it worked out. Thanks very much!


 I declined the job after. Told her I could not guarantee longevity on the stairs and was not comfortable on a complete strip. Although ironically I am just starting on a set of cabinets with this procedure. After more thought, I wouldn't recommend this on stair treads, but would be fine on the spindles/rails..


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## mariec

Thanks very much. For the treads, do you recommend paint instead?


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## finishesbykevyn

mariec said:


> Thanks very much. For the treads, do you recommend paint instead?


That's what I've been doing.. Priming with Stix and painting with Factory Black Advance. Or P&F enamel.


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