# New Construction



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

New construction is one of the most complicated and misunderstood markets for painting. It has the perception that "there is no money in it." I would say "there is no EASY money in it", which gives paint contractors with stronger business resources the opportunity to distinguish themselves.

Mod Note
These posts were moved from another thread.
Scott, this seemed to be this best place to divide the thread from here.
Thanks!


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

GMack said:


> That doesn't really make sense to me but . . . cool.:thumbsup:


I just don't see any future in New Homes....


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

there may be no money in new construction related to track homes... Custom homes that's a whole different animal and good money can be made in the right situations.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> New construction is one of the most complicated and misunderstood markets for painting. It has the perception that "there is no money in it." I would say "there is no EASY money in it", which gives paint contractors with stronger business resources the opportunity to distinguish themselves.


Your kidding me.... come on, MAN There is know way in hell your going to make any money "long term" in new homes..
May I ask; "Do YOU do New Homes?"


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree Scott, we love NC! But there are different levels. We do a lot of custom homes and have also done small tracts of duplexes. Each have their own needs and procedures, but can be great markets.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

MAK-Deco said:


> there's may be no money in new construction related to track homes... Custom homes that's a whole different animal and good money can be made in the right situations.


"Finding the right situation"...is NOT worth the effort for LONG term growth.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Woody said:


> Your kidding me.... come on, MAN There is know way in hell your going to make any money "long term" in new homes..
> May I ask; "Do YOU do New Homes?"


Go ahead, Scott!

Maybe we need a new thread here.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Woody said:


> "Finding the right situation"...is NOT worth the effort for LONG term growth.


its not hard to find out which high end contractors are worth your time... one conversation with them and I can tell from there attitude and way they speak if they will be worth my time... 

Sometimes you do not need to look for them sometimes it just happens thru networking or word of mouth... The contractors I work with I met thru someone (may of been current client, designer etc) didn't go searching for them


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This is one of the very few area in the industry that I have a great deal of experience in. 

Heres the deal:

Contrary to even 5 years ago, there is a paradigm shift happening where builders are starting to shy away from using painters (or other trades) who have their hands full just getting the job done. Getting the job done, and to the expected level of quality, is a given. This is no longer a selling point. Its a new time of accountability. If the builder or gc believes that you cant estimate properly from blueprints, put responsible numbers on scopes, compile a contract that reflects this, execute the job to the desired standard, within the agreed upon schedule, then they will not be comfortable doing business with you. I am ok with this. These are not fat times anymore. Everyone, builders included, are being held accountable for every dollar, which means that every sub in their supply chain must be as well. This is a good thing, because builders will start to slowly move away from the practice of accepting low numbers and beating it out of the sub, hoping the sub doesnt walk off the job when they realize they have created a situation where they cant make money. If this raises the standard of the builder, in securing responsible subs, and causes the paint contractor to truly understand the numbers he/she is putting out, then this can only be a good thing for the industry. The guys that cant do this will gripe or stay out of the way.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Woody said:


> Your kidding me.... come on, MAN There is know way in hell your going to make any money "long term" in new homes..
> May I ask; "Do YOU do New Homes?"


I've done a couple. They went ok.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Go ahead, Scott!
> 
> Maybe we need a new thread here.


You're right, this thread was about commercial. Feel free to yank the nc stuff and repackage as a new thread. Its a very interesting topic, and one that has certainly had its share of air time on pt.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> This is one of the very few area in the industry that I have a great deal of experience in.
> 
> Heres the deal:
> 
> Contrary to even 5 years ago, there is a paradigm shift happening where builders are starting to shy away from using painters (or other trades) who have their hands full just getting the job done. Getting the job done, and to the expected level of quality, is a given. This is no longer a selling point. Its a new time of accountability. If the builder or gc believes that you cant estimate properly from blueprints, put responsible numbers on scopes, compile a contract that reflects this, execute the job to the desired standard, within the agreed upon schedule, then they will not be comfortable doing business with you. I am ok with this. These are not fat times anymore. Everyone, builders included, are being held accountable for every dollar, which means that every sub in their supply chain must be as well. This is a good thing, because builders will start to slowly move away from the practice of accepting low numbers and beating it out of the sub, hoping the sub doesnt walk off the job when they realize they have created a situation where they cant make money. If this raises the standard of the builder, in securing responsible subs, and causes the paint contractor to truly understand the numbers he/she is putting out, then this can only be a good thing for the industry. The guys that cant do this will gripe or stay out of the way.


Very hopeful post !!...
If contractors don't hire illegal labor...it MAY come true ?
That would be GREAT !!

After 20+ years, I may have developed a RAW attitude ? or just don't see what your seeing, brother.

Stay Frosty


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Woody said:


> Very hopeful post !!...
> If contractors don't hire illegal labor...it MAY come true ?
> That would be GREAT !!
> 
> ...


I can understand why you have that attitude i have it as well... but I still look at each contractor I met individually and go from there...


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

MAK-Deco said:


> there may be no money in new construction related to track homes... Custom homes that's a whole different animal and good money can be made in the right situations.


I did a few "homerama's" back in the early 90's... We made some money, BUT AT WHAT COST...No future, No mental health, NO family time(can't hire anyone..on that budget).... There is a MUCH better ,easier way to make a living...Then,.. "doing NEW HOMES"


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NC isnt for everyone. Neither is commercial, resi repaint, interior, exterior, pm or hoa work. Nc doesnt work for alot of people. Builders are just like any other category of pros, including painters, there are ones that are good at what they do and there are ones that are not. The ones who are good at what they do prefer to surround themselves with others who are good at what they do.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Woody said:


> I did a few "homerama's" back in the early 90's... We made some money, BUT AT WHAT COST...No future, No mental health, NO family time(can't hire anyone..on that budget).... There is a MUCH better ,easier way to make a living...Then,.. "doing NEW HOMES"


Not sure the builders or the market can be blamed for these concerns.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Not sure the builders or the market can be blamed for these concerns.


It's always nice..to get another perspective on buisness..

We always had great fortune with Commercial/Industrial, and some high end residential... It could be new, or re-paint in these areas of work, and we did just fine after a few early years of struggle.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Not sure the builders or the market can be blamed for these concerns.


I agree !!.....just not me...lol


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Woody said:


> I just don't see any future in New Homes....


Even though this turned into a nice little back and forth about the good and bad of "doing new homes," what didn't make sense to me is why you felt it necessarry to say that there is no money in new homes in the first place. 

The OP asked about specs on commercial prints and how they translate to reality. I don't have much experience bidding commercial but I do have quite a bit of experience bidding residential new construction off of prints and all the issues that may arise from that situation. I pointed out that the issues are similar in both markets and I'd bet they can be handled much the same as well. 

What do you think, Woody?


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

GMack said:


> Even though this turned into a nice little back and forth about the good and bad of "doing new homes," what didn't make sense to me is why you felt it necessarry to say that there is no money in new homes in the first place.
> 
> The OP asked about specs on commercial prints and how they translate to reality. I don't have much experience bidding commercial but I do have quite a bit of experience bidding residential new construction off of prints and all the issues that may arise from that situation. I pointed out that the issues are similar in both markets and I'd bet they can be handled much the same as well.
> 
> What do you think, Woody?


I think my attitude suck's..lol..

The New home area does not have the spec's for finish work(just my experience).... They are very vague on trim; how much ?,Where ?...etc,, 
The new home arena is set-up for new companies, or guy's just starting out ?.... "I may be wrong, BUT in most situations ; a GOOD painter will LEARN ..HE can make easier, faster, and MORE money doing the SAME work with less aggravation in Commercial work.
If you read blue prints ... All the information is there on Commercial work...NO Drama, "It Is ,what it is" and if there are "change-orders".... They USUALLY get excepted, with no bickering , and arguing....

When I built a relationship's with a new home builder's... THEY also seemed like NEW guy's...OR just crooked ? They also... would not take into consideration a manageable work schedule for ALL the sub's.... Which made life difficult, for ALL. 

I probably didn't answer your question...but, I tried.


Stay Frosty


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Woody said:


> I think my attitude suck's..lol..
> 
> The New home area does not have the spec's for finish work(just my experience).... They are very vague on trim; how much ?,Where ?...etc,,
> The new home arena is set-up for new companies, or guy's just starting out ?.... "I may be wrong, BUT in most situations ; a GOOD painter will LEARN ..HE can make easier, faster, and MORE money doing the SAME work with less aggravation in Commercial work.
> ...


oh, I SEE . . . thank YOU very much . . .


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)




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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Just to reiterate, there is a common theme on this forum and in the paint trade in general that new construction painting is a no money, low life pursuit. In some cases, with some builders, that may be the case. They take low prices from inexperienced nc painters and beat it out of them, then rope them in with the old "we'll make it up to you on the next one." That does happen. 

There are also alot of good builders who are serious businesses that take the business of their sub trades pretty seriously and demand better, and are willing to pay for it. I have talked to and worked with alot of builders over the years. The number one complaint they have about painters is: "they did a decent enough job with the painting but had no concept of budget and schedule...no business model, just guys painting." To me, that is a great opportunity to show them that there is something better.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Woody said:


> When I built a relationship's with a new home builder's... THEY also seemed like NEW guy's...OR just crooked ? They also... would not take into consideration a manageable work schedule for ALL the sub's.... Which made life difficult, for ALL.
> 
> 
> Stay Frosty


I think this is an incorrect blanket statement. We do work for a few second generation builders, there are plenty of good GC's out there.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The irony is that alot of painters and even "paint companies" cant even figure out how to have a crew of 3 painters. Yet they will criticize every move of the gc, who has to run 17 trades that have 2-3 guys each minimum. Thats not an easy job, so obviously they prefer paint companies who understand the challenges of this type of work and can provide solutions to problems, instead of just more problems.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Many painter's are seduced by new construction work because they see a lot of work in the future. They think they can take a lower rate for a long term amount of work. Also many new companies that do not understand their numbers have no idea how to bid and slapping a floor sq/ft price is very easy. I see companies day after day put a number to a house without even seeing the inside. There is plague of NC pricing out there that has been started by uneducated wanna-be painting contractors. Many guys get their start in NC and get burned quickly. Low rates, bad terms and endless punch work. They simply do not know what they are getting themselves into. 

There are several levels of new construction painting just like there are sevel levels of GC's and several levels of painting companies. Is you sleep with dogs you get fleas.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> They simply do not know what they are getting themselves into.


There is alot of that going on right here in the house, but in residential and commercial now. Its the wild, wild west.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Many painter's are seduced by new construction work because they see a lot of work in the future. They think they can take a lower rate for a long term amount of work. Also many new companies that do not understand their numbers have no idea how to bid and slapping a floor sq/ft price is very easy. I see companies day after day put a number to a house without even seeing the inside. There is plague of NC pricing out there that has been started by uneducated wanna-be painting contractors. Many guys get their start in NC and get burned quickly. Low rates, bad terms and endless punch work. *They simply do not know what they are getting themselves into*.
> 
> There are several levels of new construction painting just like there are sevel levels of GC's and several levels of painting companies. Is you sleep with dogs you get fleas.


All tho I agree with 100% it will always be that way I remember my grandfather complaining about low ball hacks back in the days when I was working as a sweeper upper..


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Some good points in the thread, many which have been discussed before of course. 
I have said it before and I will say it again now. 
NC is a different kind of beast. It takes organization and the ability to work well around others, you also must be able to think fast on your feet and be able to quickly change a plan to adjust to what needs to be done. It is not for everyone. 

Many residential guys can not adjust to the fast pace and then want to say that it is a losing prospect because they were unable to adapt. Yes there are a lot of bad GC's and bulders out there but there are also many bad HO's out there that want everybody to work for free. 
I do most of my work load form NC and have been fortunate to work with good people.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

All I can say is if painters thought nc sucked 5 years ago, dont come back now. It really has changed alot at all levels. Its a harder business to be in, but I like that because it has challenged me to sharpen my pencil. Thats part of the discussion I initiated in the thread about using the qb database to track the changes from year to year in those relationships. It helped me figure out what I need to be doing to adjust to the changes that have taken place, and to anticipate how things might go in '10 by way of goals.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

scott, i think you pat yourself on the back to much.

reading prints, working with other trades, setting goals, and budgeting are included in painting 101.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

John and Mark

Sorry guys. Sometimes I get carried away thinking about how great I am. You guys are great too though.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

scott, i think your great too. :notworthy:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> scott, i think your great too. :notworthy:


Mark is better than you and I put together. He is just more humble about it. And positive.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Mark is better than you and I put together. He is just more humble about it. And positive.


no comment... keep it on track..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> no comment... keep it on track..


Yes, getting back on track...Since we have established that this is paint 101, can you give any tips on how to do 144 exteriors in one season with a crew of about 3? That would raise the level of discourse around here.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

new construction isnt rocket science.

it might sound neat that people have carved out some uber cool niche market, but its been done millions of times.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes, getting back on track...Since we have established that this is paint 101, can you give any tips on how to do 144 exteriors in one season with a crew of about 3? That would raise the level of discourse around here.


maybe it was the trim on vinyl sided tract homes.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> maybe it was the trim on vinyl sided tract homes.


Maybe. Do that x 144 = recipe for bitterness


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

high fibre said:


> maybe it was the trim on vinyl sided tract homes.


bingo we have winner.... and there was five of us...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Make the 2 winners! :thumbup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Maybe. Do that x 144 = recipe for bitterness



front doors
garage doors with trim
2 posts per unit
two decorative panels per unit..
with over white one coat spec'd...

made money on it and went home made a great relationship with two management companies and a great board of directors...

I can play all night if you like... I know i have more time than you do...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> front doors
> garage doors with trim
> 2 posts per unit
> two decorative panels per unit..
> ...


No question there.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I don't think it was meant to be as a debate on new versus repaints, both have there place in the industry, NC is not rocket science as John pointed out. It is just a matter of keeping on a schedule and having a consistant working routine. Always looking for the way to improve your time line. 
No matter what area you are in you need to always be looking for a better way.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The point of the thread, before we drifted, was to address the common perception that there is no money to be made in nc and that builders are not good to work for. I'll try to speak in more objective terms and not constantly pat myself on the back. My arms are too short for that.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Good times!:thumbup:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

thats not a common perception, its just a rumor that fellas that got out of that rat race like to spread.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

One of the things I like is a smaller number of jobs to line up. In my low population area, there is just not enough repaint work to keep everyone working. I'd rather have one $XXXX job than four $X. We do repaints in between and can keep the schedule full.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I think that what you said awhile back Scott is true 5 years ago it was a tough market and today it is even tougher. All the crap the HO's do to try and bend one over the barrell a GC can do too. It is just not for everyone. The guy that likes to get to the Job at 9:00 and be wrapping it up by the time the kids start rolling in from school will not get enough done to be in it long. 
A good routine is definitly needed.

Yes it is profitable if one can navigate the pitfalls and the people that feed off new blood.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

heck, theres good money in tract homes if you know how to jam em out quick and on the cheap.

good money in high end new construction

and as already been pointed out, good money in garage doors and $200 12x12 rooms.

nothing but great opportunities out there.

god/allah bless each and everyone of you.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

high fibre said:


> heck, theres good money in tract homes if you know how to jam em out quick and on the cheap.
> 
> good money in high end new construction
> 
> ...


Thats who we need is Pinnacle and all is complete


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## WAGGZ (Apr 2, 2009)

Saying all NC and all GC's are bad for business is just as inaccurate as saying all repaint is great and highly profitable. 

We do NC, repaint, res or small commercial, specialty coatings, and home improvement. Why limit yourself. Anytime you limit yourself "We only do repaints" your only limiting the amount of work you can get and the amount of money you can make.


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## Dacosta Painting (Jan 25, 2010)

NC is great if the GC is a cool person.
I remeber during the boom working for a freind who did mostly NC and he would get 5k just for labor on 2800sf homes we would KO them in 7 days, my freinds partner new the GC and he was getting 10k so he was making a few k just to make a call to SW I remember one lot with 75 homes(that was a lot of fun.)
Then you have those like one I met five years ago wanting me to paint his average homes of 2500sf for $1500 I laughed he said he buys the paint. I had to walk away.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

You guys are great... New HOME painting sucks for most contractors..Maybe, the companies here have mastered "the system" (what ever that is ?).

I carried up to 96 pro-painters, three office lady's, big warehouse, owned three boom trucks, four scissor lifts....bla,bla,bla..etc..

My money was always in.... New Commercial, Or re-paints in Industrial, and commercial.."Plenty of work"

We ran adds in Atlanta, Georgia; Raleigh, Carolina; Miami, Florida; ALL of Ohio,Indiana, and Kentucky... I used Blue Book, maybe you use it also ?

After reading all these posts from last night.... They "make it sound" like ; "Its my fault ,if this doesn't work" OR "Maybe, I should tighten my belt"

I hope for; .. nothing,. but the best ..for every company HERE !! I'm sure you guys no more than me.. I just joined to offer an opinion. 
Maybe ? I should go find something to do with my time...This retired "stuff" at 46 years old is letting me think to much, and NOT enough action or, risk ?

If you like New Home Paining... I love it !!



Stay Frosty


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Woody, don't take it personally. You will find we are a pretty opinionated bunch. You are entitled to your opinions as well. Sounds like you have had success in your area, as others have in theirs. :thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Woody said:


> You guys are great... New HOME painting sucks for most contractors..Maybe, the companies here have mastered "the system" (what ever that is ?).
> 
> I carried up to 96 pro-painters, three office lady's, big warehouse, owned three boom trucks, four scissor lifts....bla,bla,bla..etc..
> 
> ...


Woody,
If you had a staff like that then I could see how your opinion of NC would be negative. It is a size and systems mentality that a large commercial guy would have problems crossing over. When your company specializes in one or two releated area of the trade it is hard to cross over into another to be profitable. I would think it would be harder to manage 30 crews of 3 or 4 than a few sites of 30-40. This is why you do not see large comanies with a high percentage of sales in residential repaint and NC homes. For example you and I could be given the exact same numbers for a 200ksq/ft office building, a retail store, a 5k sq/ft NC home and a historic renovation home. You would probably be more profitable in 2 out of the four. I could also probably the same dollar value of the 5k sq/ft NC homes in the same time as you did to office building. Each have their own risks and are competitive but we would both be just as profitable.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Just read through everything and theres a lot of valid opinions here.

_I_ have never done new construction tract homes and never will, because I know that *my company *will not be profitable at it. We specialize in....

-residential repeat. (75%)
-residential additions to existing homes. (5%)
-Condominium associations. (10%)
-Light comercial. (5%)
-New custom homes. (5%)

For us, we *have* been able to make money in new custom construction. We have a long standing relationship with _one builder. _He started out as most GC's doing carpentry and graduated to building. We (my father) were the first sub he ever used! Its been a great relationship. The kind of builder that you dream about. He won't haggle over my price, and "it is, what it is" to get the job done right.

My last thread in the pictures section is one example. On a job that was bid for just under 1000 man hours (with extras) we were able to bring it in 46 hours _under budget_! :thumbup:

Now as a side note.... 
The interior decorator that was working with the builder is now working with the new owners. Apparently they (new owners) want to change a few of the room colors. Well, guess who got the call and met with them yesterday? :whistling2: :thumbup::thumbup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Just read through everything and theres a lot of valid opinions here.
> 
> _I_ have never done new construction tract homes and never will, because I know that *my company *will not be profitable at it. We specialize in....
> 
> ...


Good Stuff Schmidt.. Your percentages are pretty close to mine except I do more in the Associations than you...


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Woody,
> If you had a staff like that then I could see how your opinion of NC would be negative. It is a size and systems mentality that a large commercial guy would have problems crossing over. When your company specializes in one or two releated area of the trade it is hard to cross over into another to be profitable. I would think it would be harder to manage 30 crews of 3 or 4 than a few sites of 30-40. This is why you do not see large comanies with a high percentage of sales in residential repaint and NC homes. For example you and I could be given the exact same numbers for a 200ksq/ft office building, a retail store, a 5k sq/ft NC home and a historic renovation home. You would probably be more profitable in 2 out of the four. I could also probably the same dollar value of the 5k sq/ft NC homes in the same time as you did to office building. Each have their own risks and are competitive but we would both be just as profitable.


I would never admit it... 

Stay Frosty


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

RCP said:


> Woody, don't take it personally. You will find we are a pretty opinionated bunch. You are entitled to your opinions as well. Sounds like you have had success in your area, as others have in theirs. :thumbup:


"Very truthful"..:yes:


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes, getting back on track...Since we have established that this is paint 101, can you give any tips on how to do 144 exteriors in one season with a crew of about 3? That would raise the level of discourse around here.


Make sure that all the colors are chosen prior to start date and find a Paint Co. that delivers.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes, getting back on track...Since we have established that this is paint 101, can you give any tips on how to do 144 exteriors in one season with a crew of about 3? That would raise the level of discourse around here.


Why would I want to do this with a crew of 3...hire more guys:whistling2:


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## SterlingPainting (Jan 3, 2010)

I would say that depending on the area you work, new construction is a good addition to your overall market sales. Developing a relationship with builders is a good way to:

-Showcase your skills to future clients
-Have Impressive Referrals
-Break into the commercial markets
-Generate consistant income

You just can't bid new construction like repaints, it's more expensive! 
Also you don't have to deal with moving furniture, or the clients watching you all day. There is a whole new set of headaches though. Dealing with other trades, trade damage, etc. There's plusses and minuses in both directions, but for me I just can't see myself growing as a company saying "I only do residential repaints"..there's just not enough of it.


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## painting247 (Mar 18, 2009)

Personally, I like new construction.....I've always havd good luck with scheduling and GC. I do take into consideration the other trades that are on site at all times and plan my work accordingly. If I know other trades will be in and out then I wait until after hours, once everyone is out we can do our thing. For those of you that work 8-5 I can see where new construction may not be for you. As for me it works!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

SterlingPainting said:


> ...I just can't see myself growing as a company saying "I only do residential repaints"..there's just not enough of it.


You hit the nail on the head "as a company." There is an abundance of people in the industry with no interest in having a company or building a business. 

You can find more residential if you re-prioritize. Make your goal to just barely scratch out a living and you will be plenty busy. Consumers have been trained to seek this quality in painters.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

many great painters have graduated into residential repaints and dont have the need for gc's.

many of them are business minded people that are great at scheduling, budgeting, marketing, and delivering fine quality. these arent unique to your way of doing business.

you are mistaken if the contractors that focus on residential repaints are just barely making it. for many contractors, its a great living. it affords a lot of flexibility. it can be very lucrative with a good client base.

you paint with a very broad brush.

more back patting, it gets to be a bit much.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

work is work in my opinion specially now a days never turn away a good gig


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Why would I want to do this with a crew of 3...hire more guys:whistling2:


Aaron,

Since the PT head honcho was referring to me... I all ready explained the job in another post in this thread... I did pick up extra help for that one and one guy was from PT that I met here online.

The job went well made some new great clients and board of directors and made money... and moved on the next job...

Sometimes you have to read the sign "don't feed the animals"


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

no need to explain, you are doing a job.

scott must get some satisfaction from constantly demeaning others,(in his own slick well written way) and stroking his own ego.

he has a small group of cheerleaders fooled, possibly even even a mod.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

high fibre said:


> no need to explain, you are doing a job.
> 
> scott must get some satisfaction from constantly demeaning others,(in his own slick well written way) and stroking his own ego.
> 
> he has a small group of cheerleaders fooled, possibly even even a mod.


John,

Who are the cheerleaders and what are they fooled about?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

John and Mark

Not sure where you get the "patting myself on the back" idea from, but if thats your perception, I can live with that. I dont think there are cheerleaders (except for maybe Mark) and you probably shouldnt insult the mods. I take as much heat from them as anyone. Fortunately, there are 4-5 of them. I would say that you both benefit from that same multiple moderator diversity. 

Anyone who has read my words over the years would probably agree that I dont sugarcoat. I dont appreciate fluff flowing in either direction when it comes to my business and the industry we are all in. I do have some strong beliefs about the paint industry. We are all a part of it, in different markets and segments of the industry. Alot of common themes have popped up over the past couple of years that call into question the definition of "professional painter", public perception of the industry, and the ability of a paint forum to assist in working toward improvement. I dont make this stuff up, they are realities. 

I have put alot of my time, money and energy into my own business and so it is important to me to do what I can to help improve the industry. Its important to me that my business and the industry it is a part of has a sustainable future, characterized by professionals who help to minimize consumer confusion about the process of hiring professional painters and the costs associated with that. Everyone enters their business for different reasons. I have my own reasons and goals that are probably different from alot of others. That is fine. No one is right or wrong. We all ultimately want to meet our own definitions. Opinions are offered here, and as always, people can take or leave them. I definitely do. 

I have helped some people here on painttalk, and I have received alot of quality reciprocation in the process...some good relationships have resulted. Rather than digress into personal sniping, I think its important to remember the limitations of paint forum communication and the shortcomings of the written word. Painttalk serves different purposes for everyone. While I am flattered by the attention from you guys, I think its best if we all consider what we can offer and what we might be seeking to reach our business goals, which correlate directly to personal goals. Maybe one at a time, we can create a more professional industry. I know it is a lofty goal but if other members here on painttalk are not open to that possiblity, I would at least humbly request that they tolerate the reality that it is important some people, and I know that I am not the only one who shares that hope.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes, getting back on track...Since we have established that this is paint 101, can you give any tips on how to do 144 exteriors in one season with a crew of about 3? That would raise the level of discourse around here.


Me taking snips???

Pot met kettle... You want to question weather I can accomplish a job, thats gloves off your open to anything. 

I have never questioned you ability to accomplish a job, period.

Just cuz i do not care for you and the way you demean most guys you feel are under you doesn't mean I do not think you can accomplish something and be successful... I would be willing to get banned for good from PT to make my point if I had too..


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

PM's might be a better venue for this conversation gentleman


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> PM's might be a better venue for this conversation gentleman


I agree.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

One person's sense of humor may not jibe with another's. I've said it before; a person's on-line personality may not be their true personality. We're all guilty of tingeing our humor with sarcasm, put downs, etc.. I'm as guilty as the next person...maybe even more so. But, I think if you read the gist of the "offenders" replies, you'll see that it is from those with a passion for the business. Sometimes I have to re-read a reply to get it.

I think Scott's reply was as honest as can be. And I dont consider myself to be his...or anyone elses's "cheerleader". Yeah it took me awhile to understand VP's, NEPs',TimHag's, Aaron's, and a multitude of others sense of humor. Hell, sometimes I'm confounded by my own.

Keep everything in context. Is it the message or the messenger?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Hell, sometimes I'm confounded by my own.


I hear you, Wolfgang. I'm confounded by yours and mine. Most times I am not sure if I am laughing at myself or with myself. I guess its just important to be laughing sometimes. 

_(And for the record, I dont think I have ever seen you say something on here that could have been taken as offensive.)_


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

GMack said:


> John,
> 
> Who are the cheerleaders and what are they fooled about?


Cheerleaders are SOOOO HOOTT!!!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

My sense of humor is what has gotten me through life...and the past few months. The ER I went to with my heart attack is at the same hospital my wife works at...and the employees still tell her that I was the funniest heart attack patient they've ever had. Yeah, I had em laughing.

My ability to laugh at others comes from my ability to laugh at myself. You're right, sometimes it's good just to laugh.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Cheerleaders are SOOOO HOOTT!!!


Thank you, NEPS for this useful post :thumbsup:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Leave it to NEPS to find something gratuitous to trash a thread.:notworthy:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Leave it to NEPS to find something gratuitous to trash a thread.:notworthy:


I found waaaaayyyyyy better. I could really trash this sucker but I wont.

I think I am a Cowbay's fan now!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

7 more days and so will end a categorical failure in the annals of painttalk history.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> 7 more days and so will end a categorical failure in the annals of painttalk history.


Kinda sad you would feel that way, not to mention that you still feel the need to count the days. If you're setting yourself up for an "easy out", then it's understandable; but you just dont come across to me as a quitter.



(That'll be 90 bucks for the psycho-babble....)


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## Jeff.Chicago (May 19, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> front doors
> garage doors with trim
> 2 posts per unit
> two decorative panels per unit..
> ...


I can remark on this comment, because, well, I worked on this project with Mark!


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## Jeff.Chicago (May 19, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> I did pick up extra help for that one and one guy was from PT that I met here online.


:whistling2:


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

Honestly for all of you who care to waste everyone's time with your psycho- babblings can you just keep it in the closet. I mean seriously don't mix alcohol with your keyboard. I belong to a couple of different forums and I don't see the kind of under the breath commentary that I do here. Very immature and a complete waste. Don't get me wrong I am not talking about the occasional joke or lip smackin' as long as it's not hitting below the belt.


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## Jeff.Chicago (May 19, 2008)

IHATE_HOMEDEPOT said:


> Honestly for all you who care to waste everyone's time with your psycho- babblings can you just keep it in the closet. I mean seriously don't mix alcohol with your keyboard. I belong to a couple of different forums and I don't see the kind of under the breath commentary that I do here. Very immature and a complete waste. Don't get me wrong I am not talking about the occasional joke or lip smackin' as long as it's not hitting below the belt.


And this is exactly why I hardly ever come on here!


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Many painter's are seduced by new construction work because they see a lot of work in the future. They think they can take a lower rate for a long term amount of work. Also many new companies that do not understand their numbers have no idea how to bid and slapping a floor sq/ft price is very easy. I see companies day after day put a number to a house without even seeing the inside. There is plague of NC pricing out there that has been started by uneducated wanna-be painting contractors. Many guys get their start in NC and get burned quickly. Low rates, bad terms and endless punch work. They simply do not know what they are getting themselves into.
> 
> There are several levels of new construction painting just like there are sevel levels of GC's and several levels of painting companies. Is you sleep with dogs you get fleas.


There is a lot of truth in this statement, and unfortunately I fall right into it. 

When I got started with NC, I made all those mistakes - quoting on floor sq. ft. on specs without actually seeing the job, not fully understanding my numbers, hiring too many workers, endless punch out - you name it. 

By the time I figured out all my rookie mistakes, things were on the downhill slide and work was slowing drastically. 

I'd agree with Woody that it's hard to get ahead doing NC, and i've been told on more than one occasion (by another big vancouver painting contractor) that the money is in repaints and NC is a losing battle. I think it CAN be profitable if you get on with the right GC and understand your numbers (which i'm finally learning thanks to this forum - wish i'd found it 5 years ago), and are skilled at managing employees and production.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

I went crazy once, and thought it would be neat to be a "GC". 

I had an electrican tell me once (and he was an old friend) "I can't belive drywallers make more than I do,, I had to get a license and they don't have to do sh*t)"

I replied, "yeah, and if you worked 1/2 as hard as they do, you'd be making twice as much as they do"

Ever notice that the guys that paint NC move at regular working speed, and the guys that do re-paints,,, well, ya have to drive a stob up in the ground next to em to see if their really moving????

Just saying,,, ya know????


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I went crazy once, and thought it would be neat to be a "GC".
> 
> I had an electrican tell me once (and he was an old friend) "I can't belive drywallers make more than I do,, I had to get a license and they don't have to do sh*t)"
> 
> ...


I'll disagree with that... 

its easy to spray and backroll an empty house.

actually have to deal with homeowner and fix all the cracks (and fix them correctly and have to clean up )from the crappy drywall NC job...move furniture and work around it? not ruin the stuff that still in the room and return the room to the way it was prior to me showing up..

and btw get the check when the job is done..

EDIT.. by all means I do not have problem with NC but to make a blanket statement about repaint guys not working is assinine...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

What Mac said.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Sorry if you missed my point or took my response in the wrong way.

What I was trying to say is the guys that do NC hit the ground running and the guys that do te re-paints, hit the ground looking for someone to talk to about how good they are and how everyone else is keeping them from reaching their potential.

Again, forgive me if I was unclear


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

As someone that does a lot of both kinds, you are wrong Capt.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Sorry if you missed my point or took my response in the wrong way.
> 
> What I was trying to say is the guys that do NC hit the ground running and the guys that do te re-paints, hit the ground looking for someone to talk to about how good they are and how everyone else is keeping them from reaching their potential.
> 
> Again, forgive me if I was unclear


My guys do both, hit the ground running on both and like to talk to about how good they are in both!

It's hard making generalizations like that. You never hear painters bagging on all the sheetrockers do ya?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> I'll disagree with that...
> 
> its easy to spray and backroll an empty house.
> 
> ...


How is that differant than haveing to move STUFF around in NC, or bring it back in after your done. Or dealing with the GC, or fixing the crappy drywall in a NC (correctly) or cleaning up after (don't we all do that?) And chaseing money??? I thought we all did that.

I also don't have a problem with re-paints,,, but to bash NC just cause you don't like it,,,,,,well


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

RCP said:


> My guys do both, hit the ground running on both and like to talk to about how good they are in both!
> 
> It's hard making generalizations like that. You never hear painters bagging on all the sheetrockers do ya?


 
I am a painter as well as a drywaller,,,,,

Maybe I should change my PT name,,, or forever be considered an idiot (sorry I meant drywaller)


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Everyone in the bestest at what they do and knowone can match their quality and production. Great!


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

Personally I like repaints and think that in my area it is where the money is. For repaints you have to be established and have good word of mouth. It seems like in NC around here its whomever walks up to the jobsite and gives the cheapest price. One reason I like repaints more then NC is the scheduling. A few years ago when everything was good I would be booked for 2 months all the time and people would have no problem waiting. I couldnt see having that with NC unless I was painting the whole neighborhood of spec homes for one builder. The few NC homes weve done have always had delays and pushed us back but of course didnt push back our completion date. Jobs like those where the scheduling is always changing was not worth the headache.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Both NC and repaints have their good and bad points. The nice thing about repaints is that you have a little more control over your earning potential, rather than having to be the lowest, rock bottom priced bidder, so that the GC can take more of a profit percentage for himself. I'm not saying that all NC jobs are that way.

Either way you have to have some hustle in both your business and painting abilities. And, I have yet to find a painter who doesnt appreciate a top quality drywaller.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i dont like doing either, its work and it sucks.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> How is that differant than haveing to move STUFF around in NC, or bring it back in after your done. Or dealing with the GC, or fixing the crappy drywall in a NC (correctly) or cleaning up after (don't we all do that?) And chaseing money??? I thought we all did that.
> 
> I also don't have a problem with re-paints,,, *but to bash NC just cause you don't like it,,,,,,well*


well you obviously do not like repaints or you wouldn't claim that guys doing it aren't working hard..

The times i have done NC, I don't recall moving to much stuff around... or for one worrying about the flooring that was not in the house yet.. not having to fix drywall cause it was not part of my bid packet. Dealing with GC I only work for GC's I have a good relationship with, but HO's are far worse. Chase money I have done that maybe 5 times in 18 years... Sorry don't work for people I have to chase money from..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

There are builders who are good to work with and there are builders who are bad to work with. 

There are homeowners who are good to work with there are homeowners who are bad to work with. 

There are paint contractors who are good to work with and there are paint contractors who are bad to work with. 

On all sides of the equation it comes down to qualifying relationships properly.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Speaking as a painter and not as a contractor, you have to be able to adapt to any situation, or at least know your limitations. That's part of being a professional. 

Some jobs are going to be more technical then others, and as VP pointed out, it helps tremendously, as a contractor, to know your numbers so you can clearly identify your objectives, prioritize them, assess the requirements to meet their needs, communicate those requirements to your employees, schedule, coordinate, and execute.

I know as an employee, good leader ship is the key to success.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

quit overthinking stuff, youll drive yourself crazy.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

OH..I almost forgot.....Rah Rah Shish Coom Bah!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

high fibre said:


> quit overthinking stuff, youll drive yourself crazy.


It may be crazy, but it keeps you competitive.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the only competition worthy a wise man is with himself.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

high fibre said:


> the only competition worthy a wise man is with himself.


I'm starting to feel.."all mushy inside"

on a side note...
You were right...i got my photos mixed up..from another thread I belong to....


Stay Frosty


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

high fibre said:


> the only competition worthy a wise man is with himself.


If one is looking in the mirror, rather then out the window, he is missing the experience of living.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

When a man pee's in front of fan...his pants get wet. Therefore, man must pee behind fan...and share with mans family.


Ra...RA


Stay Frosty


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## gqmixmaster (Apr 22, 2009)

CApainter said:


> If one is looking in the mirror, rather then out the window, he is missing the experience of living.



If one does not look in the mirror then he will lose his ability to enjoy what is beyond the window.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

gqmixmaster said:


> If one does not look in the mirror then he will lose his ability to enjoy what is beyond the window.


If you don't look in the mirror you might have something in your teeth when you go on that next bid!!!!


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> If you don't look in the mirror you might have something in your teeth when you go on that next bid!!!!


That reminded me of something about mary when she took his extra "hair gel". Classic


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

gqmixmaster said:


> If one does not look in the mirror then he will lose his ability to enjoy what is beyond the window.


While one can reflect forever, it is the window that gives opportunity.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If you look in a mirror and see no reflection, you may be looking out a window.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> If you look in a mirror and see no reflection, you may be looking out a window.


or you have no soul..


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

:blink:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> If you look in a mirror and see no reflection, you may be looking out a window.


Or you may be blind.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> :blink:


Devil went down to Boston he was looking for a soul to steal
He was in a bind cuz he was way behind so he was willin to make a deal
When he came across this young man whalin on a sprayer and runnin it hot
The devil pulled up on 2 foot Werner and said:

"Boy let me tell you what. Now you are a pretty good painter boy, but give the devil his due. And if you care to take a dare I'll make a bet with you..." 

I knew it was impossible to make it in the painting industry on talent and sound business decisions alone.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Devil went down to Boston he was looking for a soul to steal
> He was in a bind cuz he was way behind so he was willin to make a deal
> When he came across this young man whalin on a sprayer and runnin it hot
> The devil pulled up on 2 foot Werner and said:
> ...


Care to elaborate on your thoughts Scott?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Care to elablotate on your thoughts Scott?


Sure, on what topic?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Sure, on what topic?


I quoted the topic pal.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I quoted the topic pal.


Yes, I was spoofing. I know Mark didnt mean it that way, but it would be funny if the implication was that a painter must sell his soul to get anywhere in the business. Again, all joking. No hate mail please.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Interesting.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

basically if you look into a mirror and see no reflection you are some kind of undead entity.. i.e. vampire maybe


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> or you have no soul..


 Or you were bitten by a vampire.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> basically if you look into a mirror and see no reflection you are some kind of undead entity.. i.e. vampire maybe


 
Well actually he COULD be a drywaller from a previous life,,,,, ya think ???


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## slapiton (Jul 28, 2007)

I don't mean to boast but maybe some of you need to learn how to estimate. I make money on all my jobs whether it is NC or repaints. The only time I felt I didn't make any money was stripping wallpaper in 2 baths, but that is a different story.


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

Im missing something here. Ive always loved new const, make tons of money on it. As opposed to a repaint, EVERTHING has to be primed, sanded, two coats, nail filling, etc. its usally more work then just changing colors on an existing home. can someone tell me simply why there is no money in it, without just bashing on someone?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Quaid? said:


> Im missing something here. Ive always loved new const, make tons of money on it. As opposed to a repaint, EVERTHING has to be primed, sanded, two coats, nail filling, etc. its usally more work then just changing colors on an existing home. can someone tell me simply why there is no money in it, without just bashing on someone?


Hi, Quaid?

I cant tell you why theres no money in it. Its most of what my company has always done, and I wouldnt continue to do it if it wasnt a viable model. 

I do think it requires a different skill set from the management standpoint than residential repainting. It requires much more communication, coordination, strategy, relationship building and maintenance. Its more than just painting a house. I think thats why some guys prefer not to pursue it. If you just want open road all the time and the ability to spread paint, nc is probably not the right market. If you enjoy projects and figuring out how to execute in less than ideal situations most of the time, then it can be great.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

.... I think you two, are just sadistic ,and like pain...lol

You both have developed a good relationship with a REASONABLE contractor(s).... MOST.."just suck, EGG'S" and require the Painter to do to much, for the money..they pay.

I'm glad to hear "Your both" doing well !!


Stay Frosty


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Quaid? said:


> Im missing something here. Ive always loved new const, make tons of money on it. As opposed to a repaint, EVERTHING has to be primed, sanded, two coats, nail filling, etc. its usally more work then just changing colors on an existing home. *can someone tell me simply why there is no money in it, without just bashing on someone?*


Because as someone else here pointed out, GC's are always out for fresh blood, because they can get them cheap. 

Case in point: I got a PM the other day from a guy who wanted to know how much I was getting for NC, because most of the people he'd talked to were bidding $1.25 - 1.50 _on the floor_ for these kinds of jobs around here right now. 

You just can't make a profit at those rates. Hell, it might even cost you more than that to do the job in the first place. Lots of new guys get into NC not knowing how to estimate this type of work properly so naturally the GC will jump on their rock bottom prices and bleed them dry. 

If you got in with a good GC who understood pricing and wasn't out to rob you for your labor, then you could probably make money in NC.


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

Rcon said:


> Because as someone else here pointed out, GC's are always out for fresh blood, because they can get them cheap.
> 
> Case in point: I got a PM the other day from a guy who wanted to know how much I was getting for NC, because most of the people he'd talked to were bidding $1.25 - 1.50 _on the floor_ for these kinds of jobs around here right now.
> 
> ...


ok i hear ya, but in that case, any job be it nc, res, comm, whatever, has no money in it if you are being underbid by jamokes, or the owner/gc is a dirtbag trying to rob you, right? if u get the job for the price you need, there is money in it, despite what the building looks like


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Rcon said:


> Because as someone else here pointed out, GC's are always out for fresh blood, because they can get them cheap.
> 
> Case in point: I got a PM the other day from a guy who wanted to know how much I was getting for NC, because most of the people he'd talked to were bidding $1.25 - 1.50 _on the floor_ for these kinds of jobs around here right now.
> 
> ...


All of the NC I have looked into was quoted extremely low like this.

A GC would say I've got 300 homes to paint, give me a price on it. Several different painters would compete with these prices not able to make a profit hoping that volume will fix it.

There would always be a few that quoted next to nothing and he'd give them each a few dozen homes and the only winner is the GC.

Even if he only saves 500 on 300 homes, extra 150 grand in somebodies pocket, and it isn't ours


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

high end residential made me a lot of money. i enjoyed the high quality craftsmen on the job, i made some really good friends. the average fine home i painted was about $6.50 per sq foot. for the interior (i know that psf of floor drives some of you nuts, but oh well)

but what i like about the repaint market is the FLEXIBILITY.

i can do what i want, whenever i want, and take no bs from anyone.

plus i make even more money.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Rcon said:


> Case in point: I got a PM the other day from a guy who wanted to know how much I was getting for NC, because most of the people he'd talked to were bidding $1.25 - 1.50 _on the floor_ for these kinds of jobs around here right now.
> 
> You just can't make a profit at those rates. Hell, it might even cost you more than that to do the job in the first place. Lots of new guys get into NC not knowing how to estimate this type of work properly so naturally the GC will jump on their rock bottom prices and bleed them dry.


Case in point,,,, I have been drywall since 1973, and I can do a SIMPLE NC for 1.25 and make MORE than the drywall pays, and I make a living at drywall. Raised 4 kids doiing it. 
I am not a new guy and I do know how to do it. Hence my previous point about folks just standing around talking about how good they are.

Don't tell me you can't make a profit at these prices,,,, or maybe just tell em to call me.

Lets take a 1000 sq ft just for an example,,,, thats 1,250.00 for a three day job (one man) 300 in mat... thats like 950.00 profit for three days,,,,, how is that NOT good ????


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That is like a 75% profit margin, Cap'n. Cant complain about that! :no:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Lets take a 1000 sq ft just for an example,,,, thats 1,250.00 for a three day job (one man) 300 in mat... thats like 950.00 profit for three days,,,,, how is that NOT good ????


The $950 is not profit.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> The $950 is not profit.


Why???? I thought it was


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Case in point,,,, I have been drywall since 1973, and I can do a SIMPLE NC for 1.25 and make MORE than the drywall pays, and I make a living at drywall. Raised 4 kids doiing it.
> I am not a new guy and I do know how to do it. Hence my previous point about folks just standing around talking about how good they are.
> 
> Don't tell me you can't make a profit at these prices,,,, or maybe just tell em to call me.
> ...


Let's look at those numbers a little closer. 

Lets say your average room size is 15x15 in a hypothetical 1000 s.f. house, and you have 4 15x15 rooms and 1 10 x 10. That's 1000 sf floor. Now lets take the wall space - by my calculations that's 2240 sq. ft. on the wall (assuming 8 ft height.). EDIT - it's actually going to be more than that but lets keep this one simple]

Priming all drywall and painting 2 coats would run you 5 gallons of primer ($80), and 12.8 gallons of paint (~$512). So that's $592 in paint so far. 

Lets not forget about other materials. Lets say they run you $75 for this particular job. 

Now we're up to $667. 

If it takes you three days to paint this, at say, $25/hr, thats (24x25=$600). 

So now we're at $1267 for direct costs, which is more than you bid the job for. What about rent, gas, insurance, cell phone etc etc etc. 

And do you really want to run a business at $25/hr when you could work for someone else for more and have no expenses?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Why???? I thought it was


Do you have no overhead?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For crying out loud, you have been doing this since 1973 and you think job price-materials=profit????? 

That is it, I apologize to Plain Painter for any rude or disrespectful comment I have made concerning his ideas. He is correct. The trades are officially ruined. Utterly, completely and eternally ruined.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> For crying out loud, you have been doing this since 1973 and you think job price-materials=profit?????
> 
> That is it, I apologize to Plain Painter for any rude or disrespectful comment I have made concerning his ideas. He is correct. The trades are officially ruined. Utterly, completely and eternally ruined.


That right there...that is the quote of the day. See, ole Tambasco wasnt all wrong.

I just spit my sorbet all over the living room!!!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ALL HAIL *TAMBASCO*!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

*weather.com*

Hell Freezes Over!!!!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> For crying out loud, you have been doing this since 1973 and you think job price-materials=profit?????
> 
> That is it, I apologize to Plain Painter for any rude or disrespectful comment I have made concerning his ideas. He is correct. The trades are officially ruined. Utterly, completely and eternally ruined.


Tambasco converted another one.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Come on Dan...do a victory lap and a burnout!!


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Rcon said:


> Let's look at those numbers a little closer.
> 
> Lets say your average room size is 15x15 in a hypothetical 1000 s.f. house, and you have 4 15x15 rooms and 1 10 x 10. That's 1000 sf floor. Now lets take the wall space - by my calculations that's 2240 sq. ft. on the wall (assuming 8 ft height.). EDIT - it's actually going to be more than that but lets keep this one simple]
> 
> ...


 
Well I'm from NC,,,, primer is $30 5er, Paint is around 40 5er flat,,,, 


you act like 25 an hour is servatude,,,, if your WORK for a painter in NC you are lucky to make 10 hr. 

Say what you want,, if I make 950 for three days work, I feel like I am doing fine,,, I only work in MY market, not yours.

I do enjoy listening to you guys talk about how we should FORCE people to pay this or that, but I live in the world that I live in,,, and the prices are "what they are"


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> Tambasco converted another one.


It's all part of the grand scheme....:whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> It's all part of the grand scheme....:whistling2:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

But THAT IS NOT PROFIT.

I have seen many tract home painted with white eggshell everything done for probably 1.25/sq. ft. My walls and ceilings look better after one coat of primer than those finished ceilings and walls look.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Preface with an intro of banjo music - da da dun daaaaa


Capt-sheetrock said:


> Well I'm from NC,,,, primer is $30 5er, Paint is around 40 5er flat,,,,
> 
> 
> you act like 25 an hour is servatude,,,, if your WORK for a painter in NC you are lucky to make 10 hr.
> ...


more banjo music -dee dee daa dun da


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> if your WORK for a painter in NC you are lucky to make 10 hr.


Yabbadabbadoozy! $10/hr?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Do you have no overhead?


 
Sure Neps I have overhead,,, I have a nissan truck with 258000 miles on it. 

AHHH,,, I have comp,, a 850.00 ghost that coast mes 200/yr after re-bate...

lets see,,,,,,,, ahhh, I have the same ladders and scoffolds I have had for YEARS ,and ah, lets see,,,, my favorite cut-in brush is over 20 yrs old,,,,, whats the factor for that one???

Maybe I'm missing the point,,,, I really don't use any 900 numbers,,,, what OVERHEAD are you rally talking about,,,,,

being kinda dumb,,, could you elaborate about overhead????


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## larryt (May 20, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Well I'm from NC,,,, primer is $30 5er, Paint is around 40 5er flat,,,,
> 
> 
> you act like 25 an hour is servatude,,,, if your WORK for a painter in NC you are lucky to make 10 hr.
> ...


thats the difference in areas (canada) i wish are materials were that low 
we pay 50 a gallon from bm $70 if i want aura and nobody puts flat on anything except ceilings


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Could be worse. The cap'n could be throwing in the paint job for free if they let him do the drywall at his target margins. :blink: Wait a minute...never mind.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Gee, big spender, I've bought enough brushes in case you'll reincarnate as a painter for another hundred times. Mind if I quote you for my new glossy fliers as to why homeowners should hire a professional?



Capt-sheetrock said:


> Sure Neps I have overhead,,, I have a nissan truck with 258000 miles on it.
> 
> AHHH,,, I have comp,, a 850.00 ghost that coast mes 200/yr after re-bate...
> 
> ...


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Preface with an intro of banjo music - da da dun daaaaa
> 
> 
> more banjo music -dee dee daa dun da


Yeah,,, I got the banjo from painting profits,,,,, I paid more for my banjo than I did for my truck, and the three tool boxes on it,,,

its ALL about priorities, ya know !!!!!!!!!


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Could be worse. The cap'n could be throwing in the paint job for free if they let him do the drywall at his target margins. :blink: Wait a minute...never mind.


 
You ought to take the time to read your own sig line


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Yeah,,, I got the banjo from painting profits,,,,,


These dudes are just jealous that cant hit a 75% margin...not even gross profit, much less net. Dont change a thing cap'n! Cept maybe get that comma key to stop stickin,,,,,


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> You ought to take the time to read your own sig line


Cap'n, you get the noble peace prize!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Admins, please lock this thread so everything is frozen in time - this is totally classic - absolutely priceless :thumbsup:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Gee, big spender, I've bought enough brushes in case you'll reincarnate as a painter for another hundred times. Mind if I quote you for my new glossy fliers as to why homeowners should hire a professional?


 
I guess you think that that brush is the only one I have,,,,,,,,


One thing I do know,,, if you can do it cheaper than the Pro Painter,,, you must be a hack,,,,,,,,

Reckon thats the point your making


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Yeah,,, I got the banjo from painting profits,,,,, I paid more for my banjo than I did for my truck, and the three tool boxes on it,,,
> 
> its ALL about priorities, ya know !!!!!!!!!


yee-haww - I put out my sign 'will paint for banjo'


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Cap'n has a niche that is lowballer-proof, at least. More than most can say.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> yee-haww - I put out my sign 'will paint for banjo'


Painted plywood I hope!!!


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> ,and ah, lets see,,,, my favorite cut-in brush is over 20 yrs old,,,,, whats the factor for that one???


How the hell is that possible? The longest i've ever used the same brush was 6 months, and there wasn't much left of it by the time it 'retired'.:jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Rcon said:


> How the hell is that possible? The longest i've ever used the same brush was 6 months, and there wasn't much left of it by the time it 'retired'.:jester:


They dont make em like they did in '73.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I guess you think that that brush is the only one I have,,,,,,,,
> 
> 
> One thing I do know,,, if you can do it cheaper than the Pro Painter,,, you must be a hack,,,,,,,,
> ...


 
Well at least you don't reuse roller sleeves from job to job, right?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Rcon said:


> How the hell is that possible? The longest i've ever used the same brush was 6 months, and there wasn't much left of it by the time it 'retired'.:jester:


That's because you don't preserve them with at the end of each job with sweet whiskey moonshine


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Cap'n has a niche that is lowballer-proof, at least. More than most can say.


I can see where you may feel that way,,,,

However I am not a lowballer, not in my area anyway,,,,, I get less than 75% of my bids,,,,, 

Someone always comes around with a lower bid,,,, 

For some reason, you guys think I am coming around as a lowballer,,, okay, think what ya want. 

As I I said, I LIVE in my world, not yours:thumbsup:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Painted plywood I hope!!!


Exterior grade


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> That's because you don't preserve them with at the end of each job with sweet whiskey moonshine


 
LOL,,, if you'd like, PM me and I'll tell you how to clean out your brushes


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Capt --

Instead of jumping in and ripping you apart I would like to point you to a nice thread explaining overhead: http://www.painttalk.com/f4/pricing-estimating-success-2779/?highlight=overhead

There is a difference between having a business and having a job being self employed. We can bicker back and forth all night about how inexpensive you can run a job, your "business" and life. I'm sure you would be suprised to find the your $25 per hour is more like $10. 

Good luck.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Cap'n, not sure what to think. We have other guys here from your area who are pricing differently (in a good way) from what you are describing. I was out there a couple of years ago. Not a bad area.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

larryt said:


> thats the difference in areas (canada) i wish are materials were that low
> we pay 50 a gallon from bm $70 if i want aura and nobody puts flat on anything except ceilings


Not to mention labour costs - I can't hire a greenhorn for less than $15/hr, and I wouldn't hire a greenhorn, so it costs me no less than $20/hr for a helper. 

While $1.25/ft to you and $1.25 to me mean totally different things, that price is still damn low.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I can see where you may feel that way,,,,
> 
> However I am not a lowballer, not in my area anyway,,,,, I get less than 75% of my bids,,,,,
> 
> ...


Don't tell me Sasquatch got into the painting biz, all he needs is a pile of leaves to sleep on - I can't compete with that!


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Cap'n, not sure what to think. We have other guys here from your area who are pricing differently (in a good way) from what you are describing. I was out there a couple of years ago. Not a bad area.


Thanks for a little bit of civility,,,,, Might have slipped through the cracks, but I DID mention a 1000 sq ft'er,, thats like a Habitat house,,,, we ain't talking no Pickling here, or 3 piece crown, okay???


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Thanks for a little bit of civility,,,,, Might have slipped through the cracks, but I DID mention a 1000 sq ft'er,, thats like a Habitat house,,,, we ain't talking no Pickling here, or 3 piece crown, okay???


I hear ya Cap'n. Just try to think as if you were on Drywalltalk.com and some painter was in there talking about how he can hang, tape and sand for like $1.25 a sheet. You guys would take and have yourselves a little fun...drywaller style! In the end, if you're happy, thats alls that matters. You seem happy. Thats all that matters.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I hear ya Cap'n. Just try to think as if you were on Drywalltalk.com and some painter was in there talking about how he can hang, tape and sand for like $1.25 a sheet. You guys would take and have yourselves a little fun...drywaller style! In the end, if you're happy, thats alls that matters. You seem happy. Thats all that matters.


I hear ya, and I really do understand what your saying,,,,, 

Check this out, i did the drywall on a job here (a two story with wrap around porch) about Nov, and they wanted a price on painting, ext and interior. I called a friend of mine, a pro painter from this area for over 29 years, yes he is a pro, has all the ins and equip, including a lift. I told him I thought we ought to bid the ext at 2.00/ft,,,, his reply was well, they are going more like 1.35 round here,,,,,, I told him, forget it, I wasn't interested. 

Point is, every area is differant


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

....anyone want a marshmellow?


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

dont change a thing captain sheetrock, you da man.

its easy for these guys to look good when its easy to look good.


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

Rcon said:


> How the hell is that possible? The longest i've ever used the same brush was 6 months, and there wasn't much left of it by the time it 'retired'.:jester:


when i started painting for myself, my grandpa (retired painter of 30+years) gave me some brushes called 'magnacoaters. they were at least 20+ years old. he is from the depression era, so everything he bought pretty much still exists in great condition. i have yet to find a brush as good as those, and im serious. we abused them for another 2 years and then they were junk (shows the difference in our idea of 'taking care of tools' and an old timers). those damn brushes cut and held paint so well, youd go right in yer pants if you used one. so i believe this guy


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I thought drywallers bid by boardft..................

What does the floor sqft have to do with anything. Are you laying sheetrock flooring?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

painttofish said:


> I thought drywallers bid by wall sqft..................
> 
> What does the floor sqft have to do with anything. Are you laying sheetrock flooring?


No, but thats the way its bid HERE, we bid drywall by the brd sq/ft and paint by the flr sq/ft, and then factor in the other stuff,, like crown, etc etc


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> These dudes are just jealous that cant hit a 75% margin...not even gross profit, much less net. Dont change a thing cap'n! Cept maybe get that comma key to stop stickin,,,,,


 
Thas a diversionary tactic,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cause I can't speil far sheet


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Drywall is done by the board here. 

So... are all the bumps ironed out.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Capt --
> 
> Instead of jumping in and ripping you apart I would like to point you to a nice thread explaining overhead: http://www.painttalk.com/f4/pricing-estimating-success-2779/?highlight=overhead
> 
> ...


Neps, I hear ya, and I respect you, from reading your posts in the past,,

HOWEVER,,, I live here,,, and you either paint for that price or you find another job!! 

I remember the Carter depression,,, and those that did what they had to do and still had their equiptment AFTERwards, were sitting in the right posistion.

Thats THE REASON I hate baseball,,,,, they only play 9 innings,,, I play TILL I win.


But seriously you guys have broke my heart,,,,,, I thought EVERYBODY loved Banjo music !!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For me, it is not so much the $ amount, but the lousy materials and blow and go mentality that go with projects like that. It reflects more on the GC than the painter/drywaller though.


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

No disrespect intended to anyone on this thread, but why do people insist on saying things like "that's the way it is here" or "around here prices for that are x.xx"? Do you really know the prices of each and every contractor in your area? I mean if a builder that you know is subcontracting the painting in your area for x.xx amount does that mean all builders in your area are equally doing the same thing for that price? Does that mean all subs in your area are doing the same thing for that price too? Its really a ludicrous statement. I'm not trying to be a smartace or anything, but to say that there is a going rate that "everyone" uses is ludicrous. I understand that sometimes the majority of contractors are going with a certain price range, but don't sterotype your whole "area" because you think you "know" the price. 

If contractors would quit getting sucked into this stupid sq ft. mentality pricing, this might not be as much of an issue.

Hope you get the drift of what I'm trying to convey!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

feel free to reinvent the wheel.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock, where you from in NC?


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

michfan said:


> No disrespect intended to anyone on this thread, but why do people insist on saying things like "that's the way it is here" or "around here prices for that are x.xx"? Do you really know the prices of each and every contractor in your area? I mean if a builder that you know is subcontracting the painting in your area for x.xx amount does that mean all builders in your area are equally doing the same thing for that price? Does that mean all subs in your area are doing the same thing for that price too? Its really a ludicrous statement. I'm not trying to be a smartace or anything, but to say that there is a going rate that "everyone" uses is ludicrous. I understand that sometimes the majority of contractors are going with a certain price range, but don't sterotype your whole "area" because you think you "know" the price.
> 
> If contractors would quit getting sucked into this stupid sq ft. mentality pricing, this might not be as much of an issue.
> 
> Hope you get the drift of what I'm trying to convey!


from what ive seen most people on this board are perfect, know everything, and make more money than you on every job, oh, and only take on perfect work. But you guys are ok with me


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Drywall is generally by the BrdFoot here, however there are exceptions.

Project I am on now the top row has a TONNE of cutting around stuff to do ( exposed metal ceiling, pipes, bars, cords etc ) in which case they will bid that portion differently


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Capt-sheetrock, where you from in NC?


New Bern, but I do most of my work in Morehead and Atlantic Beach


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

michfan said:


> No disrespect intended to anyone on this thread, but why do people insist on saying things like "that's the way it is here"


Normally its because,,, "thats the way thing ARE around here"


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> No, but thats the way its bid HERE, we bid drywall by the brd sq/ft and paint by the flr sq/ft, and then factor in the other stuff,, like crown, etc etc



You earlier gave a floor sqft bid model for sheetrock?

And now you are bidding painting by the floor sqft?

None of this makes any sense. 

Your not finishing floors right?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> New Bern, but I do most of my work in Morehead and Atlantic Beach


 Cool I make it up that way at least once a year usually. Used to go to the big rock every year, haven't fished as much as I wanted to in the last two years though with work getting in the way. Are you seeing things picking up? It seems it is around here, hope its not people spending tax returns, and deciding to get a repaint.

The few builders I do deal with are calling me to get a few lined up, nothing special thou just some spec houses. The beaches have been pretty much dead for NC for the last two years, but I have been doing ok on repaints. Those rusty nails drive a lot of people crazy. :whistling2:


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Cool I make it up that way at least once a year usually. Used to go to the big rock every year, haven't fished as much as I wanted to in the last two years though with work getting in the way. Are you seeing things picking up? It seems it is around here, hope its not people spending tax returns, and deciding to get a repaint.
> 
> The few builders I do deal with are calling me to get a few lined up, nothing special thou just some spec houses. The beaches have been pretty much dead for NC for the last two years, but I have been doing ok on repaints. Those rusty nails drive a lot of people crazy. :whistling2:


Yes, I was getting a LITTLE more than weary, but I have 5 new houses coming in March, hang, finish and paint. Plus a motel, only getting part of it tho, its a 1000 brds/flr, but I.m only getting 600/fl per week.

After painting for 1.25/ft for the last year, I still have ALL the tools and materials to do this...... Nothing like being a hack (lowballer) !!!!

I aploigze in advance


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

At 1.25 I could give 10 houses a month.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

painttofish said:


> You earlier gave a floor sqft bid model for sheetrock?
> 
> And now you are bidding painting by the floor sqft?
> 
> ...


 
If I did (bid drywall by the fl space), I am SORRY,,,, I NEVER EVER bid drywall by the sq/ft, so if I miss typed or mis spoke, I again apoligize,

However, I have been making some 9.5% ABV homebrew,, so it may have happend !!!!!

But I believe you may have been drinking stouter stuff,, I really can't believe I said that,,,,,,, can you point it out???? I am MORE than willing to reconcile that mistake !!!!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think he typo'd that and meant that you bid drywall by wall sq. ft., but painting by floor sq. ft. which makes no sense. Should base both off of wall sq. ft. (and ceiling)


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I think he typo'd that and meant that you bid drywall by wall sq. ft., but painting by floor sq. ft. which makes no sense. Should base both off of wall sq. ft. (and ceiling)


Cool, thought that I lost my head there for a bit


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## PaintersAreUs (Feb 19, 2021)

Woody said:


> It's always nice..to get another perspective on buisness..
> 
> We always had great fortune with Commercial/Industrial, and some high end residential... It could be new, or re-paint in these areas of work, and we did just fine after a few early years of struggle.


How to you get your foot in the door for commercial


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