# Weeding out Customers



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Over the past few weeks or so, I have been getting a lot of calls for estimates. So, far I have only got one of the jobs--still need the contract signed, but it feels like is it a done deal.

A few of the jobs I have lost, or never even go to do an estimate, because I could not start right away. Had one customer asked me if I could do a drive-by estimate. That should have been a red flag. But, I was driving and told her I would call her back when I got to my work site. Turned out she wanted the exterior of her house painted before she moved in, in early July. Told her I could not ever start until the middle of June, if then, and that it would be tough to find anyone that could get an exterior done on such short notice. But, she insisted, and told me that she would get back to me. This is only one of several that I have encountered in the past month.

So, now when I am contacted by phone or email one of the first things that I tell them is that I am busy until (however long I have jobs booked for) and that I would not be able to start until after then.

It annoys me that this happens. Do HO do this to GC--"I need an addition added and the work has to start by next week!" But, I know that this topic has be beaten to death.

My question is do you have any questions that you ask before you go to the house for an estimate that helps you avoid wasting your time?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

"You want it done by when?" :w00t::w00t::w00t:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Typically, after I find out who referred them and they've given me a quick summary, I ask about their time frame. That's the big decision point and narrows the field considerably.


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## harmonicarocks (Nov 29, 2013)

I ask about their time frame during initial conversation, and if it doesn't work with my current schedule, I ask if there is any flexibility with the time frame they have in mind. If I absolutely cannot do it, I tell them on the spot so we don't waste each others' time. Many times this business is a juggling act, with some jobs being time sensitive and some not, so sometimes I can squeeze a small rush job in between larger ones. It can be frustrating at times, but we just have to face the fact that we simply cannot do them all.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

First question I ask is how soon are you looking at painting.

Even still you will get the people who say "Fit me in whenever you can", but when it comes down to it, they are calling you every other day wondering when you will show up.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

My first questions are:

Where are you located ? - to make sure they are in my service area

What type of space is it ? - I do not do commercial

Do you have a time frame this needs to be done within?

Just yesterday TWO businesses wanted small spaces done next week.
It baffles me.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> My first questions are:
> 
> Where are you located ? - to make sure they are in my service area
> 
> ...


I sometime get the impression that they assume that I was just by the phone, waiting for them to call so I could go to work.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Have them call me...I'll find them some one to paint there house by the weekend...yes..yes...


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> I sometime get the impression that they assume that I was just by the phone, waiting for them to call so I could go to work.


Isn't that what you were doing in that pic you posted yesterday? :whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

What seems to be lost on a lot of clients during the busy season is that it's generally a bad sign if a contractor can get to their job right away. There are often good reasons why they can do so... and it's usually not because they have a finely-tuned system


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

When do you need the work started?
 When do you need the work completed?
 When the work begins, will we be able to work Mon thru Fri, from 8am to 4:30pm until the work is completed?
 If you can not be home while the work is in progress, will we be permitted to work alone in your home?
 Will any other contractors, cleaning personal or any activities be taken place during the days we are scheduled to be there?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> What seems to be lost on a lot of clients during the busy season is that it's generally a bad sign if a contractor can get to their job right away. There are often good reasons why they can do so... and it's usually not because they have a finely-tuned system


I kind of tried to convey this to the HO that wanted their exterior painted before they moved in. But, I don't think that they got the message. I am learning this summer that we have a lot of summer home/cottages (which I already knew) HO that want work done asap so that they can enjoy it. Why they could not call during the early spring is beyond my comprehension.


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

It doesn't happen too often for me anymore cause I'm not just a name in the phonebook like it was years ago, but if someone says I wont be there you can just look around and let me know, they get a ten minute education on how to choose a contractor, the reality of apples to apples, and why they should want to meet someone that will be at their home and children. They agree and we make an appointment for the estimate.

I will not look at a job without meeting the customer. Without meeting them you are just a number and that devalues your professionalism.

Plus I like working my super salesman verbal magic:thumbup:


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Good advice, Pete. Now, don't worry about what is behind you, start looking at finding that helper who can push more jobs through. Come up with a plan for next season and follow through.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Gough said:


> What seems to be lost on a lot of clients during the busy season is that it's generally a bad sign if a contractor can get to their job right away. There are often good reasons why they can do so... and it's usually not because they have a finely-tuned system


 If only it was that easy.


Start a biz 
buy a truck and latters 
BAM - booked for 6 months :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Pete the Painter said:


> I kind of tried to convey this to the HO that wanted their exterior painted before they moved in. But, I don't think that they got the message. I am learning this summer that we have a lot of summer home/cottages (which I already knew) HO that want work done asap so that they can enjoy it. Why they could not call during the early spring is beyond my comprehension.


I tell them point blank that yes they COULD find someone living in his mother's basement playing video games waiting for the phone to ring, but I bet I know WHY he's not busy.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CJ-Newfield said:


> If only it was that easy.
> 
> 
> Start a biz
> ...



Kind of agree. There are good painters that are just starting out that are not book for six months out--I am one of them. But, when I tell a HO that I can start in about two weeks if I move around me schedule a bit, and this is not fast enough for them--it just irritates me. Do HO do this to General Contractors? Do they call up for an addition to their home, and only accept work from a GC that can start immediately?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Pete the Painter said:


> Kind of agree. There are good painters that are just starting out that are not book for six months out--I am one of them. But, when I tell a HO that I can start in about two weeks if I move around me schedule a bit, and this is not fast enough for them--it just irritates me. Do HO do this to General Contractors? Do they call up for an addition to their home, and only accept work from a GC that can start immediately?


Pete,

I remember last year having to turn down two interior repaint jobs (entire interior from ceilings down to the trim) because I was given less than a week to do each. I wasn't finished with some other jobs when I was contacted by the customers. I thought it odd that they waited until the last minute to try and find somebody. I just had to tell them no and go on my merry way.

I think we share similar problems due to the fact that we are only a one or two man show. We don't have a crew to knock out large stuff fast enough for some people...just a fact. Growing pains...


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

One of the first things I ask when on the phone is their time frame and size of the job. Full exteriors we are squeezing a couple in while doing the resto jobs. We also take weekends to do smaller jobs.

We have a bunch of 1-2 day jobs lined up all ready. And all of these are the want it now type.


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## READY TO ROLL (Dec 12, 2011)

First thing I ask :

What do you need done. 
Where are you located.
When do you want to start.

With a little bit of conversation you can figure out if the bid is going to be a waste of your time.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

daArch said:


> I tell them point blank that yes they COULD find someone living in his mother's basement playing video games waiting for the phone to ring, but I bet I know WHY he's not busy.


 They call on Monday, I tell them I can start on Tuesday.
Tell-um - I will pick up 3 Mexicans at Home Depot in the morning and drop them off with paint and supplies. I then ask them, can my guys pitch a tent in their yard for the duration of the job and also, can they have bathroom privileges? 

It's usually a bit comical when I explain my system, but after they stop laughing, they get real serious (huge $$$ savings), and I close on the spot. :jester:


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## 97audia4 (Sep 10, 2013)

I have never been less than 4-6 months out so when someone calls I tell them straight up unless you can wait that long you can call someone else no need to waste my time or theirs.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

97audia4 said:


> I have never been less than 4-6 months out so when someone calls I tell them straight up unless you can wait that long you can call someone else no need to waste my time or theirs.


If you are always booked out that far then it's probably time to consider raising your rates.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> If you are always booked out that far then it's probably time to consider raising your rates.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I would have started 6 months earlier:whistling2:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

How many customers have you worked for who outright said they don't trust you enough to let you into their house if they aren't there?

Today I encountered my first. Going to be starting a horrible exterior job next week that's going to be a messy job full of scraping/sanding/etc. After I'd agreed to it, a friend told me knew the woman and said she's 'different'. I went and picked up the paint colour today. She told me she'd be away for a week while I was working. I suggested she give me a key for that time period, just in case I need to use the bathroom or for drinking water, etc.

She pauses then proceeds to tell me that she doesn't know me well enough and isn't sure if she can trust me. I've never had this happen before, especially in a town where only 1/2 the people even lock their doors at all! I suggested that was pretty funny since I was going to be buying materials and working on her house for over two weeks and not getting paid until the end of it! I'm trusting her with several thousand dollars of what will be my money eventually, yet she can't trust me to use her bathroom when she's not there.

In the end I told her it's going to get pretty expensive for her if I have to drive somewhere to use the bathroom if I have to because I'm not stopping my clock and will be billing her for that time.

I dunno, I was just stunned. Absolutely never had that happen before.

Rich people problems.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

That's kind of a tough one.

Only doing interiors we are always inside the house. We usually suggest getting a key just so we can lock up if we need to leave and the HO's aren't home. I'm often somewhat surprised at how many people agree without seemingly having a second thought about doing so. But every so often we encounter someone who isn't comfortable with the idea. I don't take it personally. You never know what kind of past experience someone may have had.

Having the outside done and allowing free access to the interior might easily give many people second thoughts. I know I would if a roofing or siding crew wished to come in to use out bathrooms when we're not there. Heck, probably even if we were there. Guess I'd consider renting a port-a-potty and factor the cost into the job. Not worth trying to convince her to agree to something she's not comfortable with and might also save you the headache of having her constantly monitoring your inside visits. Or worse, accusing you of having taken or damaged something.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yeah, I guess I see your point RH. I think it has to do with living in a small town and never having anyone even question this in the past. I wouldn't want a roofing crew coming in and destroying my bathroom either. They're animals!

You make some good points though. If she did start thinking something went missing, that could be a can of worms I wouldn't want to deal with either.

That could be pretty funny if I had a porta potty delivered to her front lawn though!

She's just really coming across as someone who's really full of herself, who lives in a ritzy area in a heritage house......... That's falling apart at the seams.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

For one. If you have those thoughts about roofers, what kind of trust issues do you think a person has for painters? 

And for exteriors I never assume I can use their bathrooms. I go elsewhere if they are not home, and if there's one close by I don't even bother asking. 

When I first started I was doing a bunch if interior work for this lady who lived on the island but worked on the mainland . It was done on 5 stages. 
The first stage I had to get her neighbor to let me in and out every day while she was gone because she didn't trust me. But after that she knew me better and could trust me with a key without questioning anything . I wouldn't take offence to it though if I were you 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

If we're doing an exterior and the client doesn't offer access to a washroom, we make other arrangement. Sometimes, we're right by a place with one open to the public, other times we'll hire a porta-potty for the duration. 

We do have a chemical toilet in the big truck, but we haven't taken that on jobs for a while.

Wildbill did raise a good point about the trust issue, though. We'll pass on work if it's clear from the outset that the client is going to be a hoverer. If I don't pick up on it until after the job has started, they'll likely be a one-time client, since we won't normally consider working for them again.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I was just kidding about the roofer comment. Maybe a smiley would have suggested that. Yeah, it's not like it's really a problem. Certainly not worthy of renting a porta pooper for one guy. I can always go elsewhere for sure. Even drive home for that matter.

I think it was just the initial shock of hearing someone say that to me. She's already raised a few flags for me and this one was just kind of the cherry on top I guess. Obviously a first time customer. Likely going to stay that way.


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I was just kidding about the roofer comment. Maybe a smiley would have suggested that. Yeah, it's not like it's really a problem. Certainly not worthy of renting a porta pooper for one guy. I can always go elsewhere for sure. Even drive home for that matter. I think it was just the initial shock of hearing someone say that to me. She's already raised a few flags for me and this one was just kind of the cherry on top I guess. Obviously a first time customer. Likely going to stay that way.



How long have you been doing any type of residential work? You never, ever, use a homeowners bathroom. Never use anything of the homeowners for that matter. Even if they offer and even if you have worked for them before. Maybe it's just the type of people we deal with and my experiences regarding the matter, but don't question homeowners that don't want you using their personal spaces. I mean in all reality your a stranger to them, even if your working in their home, it's still their home. 

I don't trust people I've only met a handful of times, let alone would leave them in my house without someone I trust being there.
Don't look it at as disrespect. Look at it as respect for her trusting you to do the job in the first place. 

What were the other red flags from her?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

When was the last time you saw any ass gaskets in a homeowner's bathroom? That's right, never. Because they don't intend on strangers taking a dump. I would consider party guests to fall into another category. They're exempt from sullying ones commode.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

If you're working at my house you'll get plenty of sweet tea and probably lunch. If you need to take a leak you can go behind the storage building, like I do. If you need more privacy than that, McDonald' is 3 miles down the road. Even more private than that is the public library next door.......


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

We never use the homeowners washroom. Go up the road to McDonalds, our a gas station. Homeowners have said to us plenty of times 'here's the key code for the house, feel free to use the washroom, our grab a drink'.
We've yet to do it


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Nothing worse that leaving big skid marks in the homeowners toilet bowl.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

washroom?:blink:


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

pissing in the handbasin is a good option.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

MKap said:


> How long have you been doing any type of residential work? You never, ever, use a homeowners bathroom. Never use anything of the homeowners for that matter. Even if they offer and even if you have worked for them before. Maybe it's just the type of people we deal with and my experiences regarding the matter, but don't question homeowners that don't want you using their personal spaces. I mean in all reality your a stranger to them, even if your working in their home, it's still their home.
> 
> I don't trust people I've only met a handful of times, let alone would leave them in my house without someone I trust being there.
> Don't look it at as disrespect. Look at it as respect for her trusting you to do the job in the first place.
> ...


I've been doing pretty strictly residential for twelve years. This is pretty interesting now as I've never heard anyone I've worked for (other painter or customer) even suggest going somewhere else to use the loo.

I agree about being a relative stranger to them, and I agree about using their personal spaces but I'm not talking about using their kitchen or crashing on their couch or having a shower at their place. I'm also not talking about destroying their toilet by taking a huge dump.

This is kind of an interesting conversation though now. From the very beginning of doing this type of work, I've always been left alone in customers homes to paint even if I'd just met them once to look at things. People around here sometimes won't give me a key to get in, they just leave the door unlocked and tell me to leave it unlocked when I leave. Maybe it's just a small town thing or something? I have no idea.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

My clients would think I'm weird if I felt awkward about using their loo. They leave me their keys all the time with no supervision. In fact a few times on my last exterior when the house was locked with noone at home, I went and asked the next door neighbour to use their loo, whose house I had also worked on. No eyebrows raised, though these people had also left the house to me previously without any second thought.

In these situations being a reputable one-man band helps, as opposed to being a crew of faceless workers.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The 3rd Coat said:


> In these situations being a reputable one-man band helps, as opposed to being a crew of faceless workers.


Maybe that's it right there. The largest crew I've worked on was two painters and that's the guy who trained me. I hadn't even considered that.

Both of us have basically made our careers on word of mouth from previous customers, friends and the folks at the local paint shop. Thus we were already considered reputable.

I guess I've always thought if you don't trust me why would you want me anywhere near your home and why would I want to be there.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

After using a HO's bath room, I come out look them dead in the eye and say, Dam that's the biggest urinal I have ever seen!.. :jester:


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## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

Brian C said:


> Nothing worse that leaving big skid marks in the homeowners toilet bowl.


 If toilets could talk, we wouldn't be invited back.

I think people fear getting crabs from their workers, that's all.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Delta Painting said:


> After using a HO's bath room, I come out look them dead in the eye and say:


"Man, I'm never having three big macs for lunch ever again. I feel like I just left my guts in your toilet. I'm a husk of my former self."


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

yeah, you can poop and stink their bathroom out and leave toilet paper all over the floor but its embarrassing making eye contact with the homeowners disapproving look .


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Delta Painting said:


> After using a HO's bath room, I come out look them dead in the eye and say;



uh… do you have a plunger I can use? :shutup:


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

If they came from Angie's List, they have my attention. 
If they came from my website and went deeper that the first page, they have my attention.
If they are a referral or repeat client they have my attention.
I do redline so if you are in a part of town that is "bad" you are a low priority.
Here in Indy, that usually means below 30th street, 
If the first thing they ask is "Do you gives free estimates?" I am booked until spring, 
2027.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> washroom?:blink:


That's Canajun for bathroom.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

In our contract:



> Customer will allow contractor and employees access to washroom facilities, electricity and a water source.


We employ humans.
As such they own bladders and other such accessories.

Should customer choose to not agree to the contract terms above,
we have other places to paint.
No hurt feelings.

This has served us well for years. No issues.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

I suppose wiping the toilet seat before and after use is a good idea.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

The 3rd Coat said:


> I suppose wiping the toilet seat before and after use is a good idea.


Its bad enough to have to cut around a water closet let alone clean it for them after use..:blink:


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Delta Painting said:


> After using a HO's bath room,


Got A mop?:blink:


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Every mans home is his castle and the toliet is their throne. 
Don't use their bathroom unless they have one specifically for "the help". If they don't find other means.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

George Z said:


> In our contract:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:

That's exactly how I see it.:yes:


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Delta Painting said:


> Its bad enough to have to cut around a water closet let alone clean it for them after use..:blink:


Are you serious ? I love getting down on my hands and knees and painting behind the toilet bowl.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

funny discussion. I for one am disgusted by public toilets at McDs or any public restroom. I would prefer to take a dump in an emty 5'er in the back of my work van, than Mc'Ds or a gas station.

I am also repulsed to use some home owners toilets. I often clean them before I use them.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> funny discussion. I for one am disgusted by public toilets at McDs or any public restroom. I would prefer to take a dump in an emty 5'er in the back of my work van, than Mc'Ds or a gas station.
> 
> I am also repulsed to use some home owners toilets. I often clean them before I use them.


Don't forget to to use a Wal Mart bag for a liner.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't think it is an epiphany to state that every one is different. Some HO's have no problem with tradespeople having the run of the house, other HO's will spray you with disinfectant at the door and lay down paper towels before each step you take. (don't laugh)

A GENERAL policy of not using ANYTHING of the HO's is a good place to start. That can be adjusted as you understand what their preferences are. 

I need water in one or two fivers to perform my work. I ask where would be a suitable place to get it. The most often answer is the kitch sink - and I wipe up any over spray. 2nd most common answer is a bathtub. Sometimes the slop sink in garage or basement. And once every couple of years, the outside hose. 

But I always ask first.

Again, everyone is different. One size does not fit all. Is better, as a tradesman, to ask the boundaries first than attempt to be forgiven after.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

We will usually have a line item in the bid for an optional Honey Bucket. It's only around $200 for up to a month rental, with weekly clean outs. Well worth it for some.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> We will usually have a line item in the bid for an optional Honey Bucket. It's only around $200 for up to a month rental, with weekly clean outs. Well worth it for some.


I agree. Porta Pottys are pretty cheap to rent and they usually include a cleaning service once a week, I believe. They also look professional and evoke a sense of conscientiousness from the contractor.

I do however, think it's an easier sell for an OMS to have bathroom privileges then a larger crew, provided you arrive with your own seat liners. And maybe a pack of Clorox wipes.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I agree. Porta Pottys are pretty cheap to rent and they usually include a cleaning service once a week, I believe. They also look professional and evoke a sense of conscientiousness from the contractor.
> 
> I do however, think it's an easier sell for an OMS to have bathroom privileges then a larger crew, provided you arrive with your own seat liners. And maybe a pack of Clorox wipes.


I tried them, but they REALLY sting.:whistling2:

We go the Porta Potty route if they don't offer. I was a little shocked at the price Ecell posted, though. That's almost three times what we pay around here.

EDIT: it used to be $75/month, now it's $60.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Why don't we have this (obviously) big problem, I wonder.
We usually have 3 crews, about 150 jobs a year.
Both interior and exterior.
I remember maybe 2,3 jobs a few years ago we had to turn down because of this.

I think the problem is perceived here to be bigger than it is.

Communicate your policy well to the customer upfront (in the proposal).
Hire and keep people that you don't mind letting them use your own bathroom.

Have one designated bathroom, 
have written policies about customer property and bathrooms,
have the job manager enforce these policies.

I don't want my painters going behind trees, 
in 5 gallon buckets (that's more acceptable?)
or running around to find a place. 
Porta Pottys don't go very well with my crews. Especially the women find them disgusting.


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## Spock (Jun 29, 2014)

This may be unpopular and politically incorrect but I'm hesitant to use my time to give estimates to some immigrants & ethnic groups that are well known for being cheap.That's the culture they grew up in. It's simply a waste of my time because they always get 10 estimates and go for the cheapest price.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> I tried them, but they REALLY sting.:whistling2: We go the Porta Potty route if they don't offer. I was a little shocked at the price Ecell posted, though. That's almost three times what we pay around here. EDIT: it used to be $75/month, now it's $60.


Wow, that's cheap. I never even questioned my pricing since I figured $200 was a pretty good deal for delivery+ rental+weekly clean-up+ pick up. Must be a big city vs. smaller community thing. Either that or I'm getting worked over. Btw, we never had to worry about it in the owner + 1 days, but with a 4-5 person crew it seems to go over really well. It's also another opportunity for profit!


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## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

Spock said:


> This may be unpopular and politically incorrect but I'm hesitant to use my time to give estimates to some immigrants & ethnic groups that are well known for being cheap.That's the culture they grew up in. It's simply a waste of my time because they always get 10 estimates and go for the cheapest price.


Im guilty of this too. I learned the hard way that certain ethnic groups want the work done for next to nothing and then they still have the nerve to try and grind you on the amount of the final payment at the end of the job 9 times out of 10 even if you have a contract. 

"No tax right?"
"Pay everything at the end of the job?"
"My cousin is a painter so you better sharpen your pencil"
"Im getting 5 or 6 other quotes"

See ya!


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

We have the same issues down here with a few migrant groups. These-days I weed them out and decline to price the work. 

I know through past experience they will give me grief when its time to get my money.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

There are cheap ba$tards in every ethnic group.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Yes there are but its up to you to assess whether they are going to be difficult when you are meeting with them for the first time and pricing the job.

They get a red flag from me when they say they are getting 4-5 quotes from other painters, or asking me to break down the price for labour with paying cash to avoid tax .


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## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> There are cheap ba$tards in every ethnic group.


I hear you. I have met a few WASP cheapskates in some of the most tony areas of town. Two million dollar house and a driveway full of luxury cars and he's grinding you for a couple hundred bucks on a 6k job.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Paint Pro CA said:


> I hear you. I have met a few WASP cheapskates in some of the most tony areas of town. Two million dollar house and a driveway full of luxury cars and he's grinding you for a couple hundred bucks on a 6k job.


Isn't that why they have those things? Most 'rich' people are rich because they don't throw away there money, and if you knuckle under them then they usually don't respect you. I have a client, he's super cheap, owned the biggest nicest house in that part of the city, but he pays me up front, gives me lunch, and sometimes a cocktail at the end of the day. He's also setting me up with a big time developer in the area


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Paint Pro CA said:


> I hear you. I have met a few WASP cheapskates in some of the most tony areas of town. Two million dollar house and a driveway full of luxury cars and he's grinding you for a couple hundred bucks on a 6k job.


People that can afford a $2 million dollar house know how money works...it obviously isn't their first time dealing with, haggling or negotiating the best possible price for anything. It's not being a cheapskate, it's being fiscal. Why not try to save money if you can?
If they let their money go so easy...they wouldn't have what they have. 

Give these type of people a price, stick to it and grind them on the extras if they ask for additional work.


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## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

MKap said:


> Give these type of people a price, stick to it and grind them on the extras if they ask for additional work.


That is the name of the game however I have found that in a few cases the uber-wealthy customer thought they could just push around the lowly painter. 

Specific example. 9000 square foot home. Beautiful Frank Lloyd Wright replica. We are 1 full day into doing the walls and the wife all of a sudden doesn't like the wall colour she picked and signed off on. Wanted us to change colour and thought we could just switch it up no problem and that it shouldn't cost extra because we weren't done the job anyways. 

Is that someone who understands money or someone who understands that they are usually used to getting what they want no questions asked? Im leaning towards the latter.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paint Pro CA said:


> That is the name of the game however I have found that in a few cases the uber-wealthy customer thought they could just push around the lowly painter.
> 
> Specific example. 9000 square foot home. Beautiful Frank Lloyd Wright replica. We are 1 full day into doing the walls and the wife all of a sudden doesn't like the wall colour she picked and signed off on. Wanted us to change colour and thought we could just switch it up no problem and that it shouldn't cost extra because we weren't done the job anyways.
> 
> Is that someone who understands money or someone who understands that they are usually used to getting what they want no questions asked? Im leaning towards the latter.


I am inclined to agree with your assessment of the HO's line of thinking. However, sometimes you just run into people who have no idea as to how situations like what your described work. They aren't necessarily acting entitled, just clueless.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

The paint store wads telling me Hoyle this guy wants a semi transparent stain to match a solid bright blue colour.

He said I can't match that perfectly as it's a solid vs a semi

His response. "Of course you can because I am from the uplands". (The richest part of our city )


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Paint Pro CA said:


> That is the name of the game however I have found that in a few cases the uber-wealthy customer thought they could just push around the lowly painter. Specific example. 9000 square foot home. Beautiful Frank Lloyd Wright replica. We are 1 full day into doing the walls and the wife all of a sudden doesn't like the wall colour she picked and signed off on. Wanted us to change colour and thought we could just switch it up no problem and that it shouldn't cost extra because we weren't done the job anyways. Is that someone who understands money or someone who understands that they are usually used to getting what they want no questions asked? Im leaning towards the latter.


That's comparing apples to bowling balls from your other post. Write that change order or keep painting that original color. She's use to getting what she wants...that's on you to tell her otherwise.


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## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

MKap said:


> That's comparing apples to bowling balls from your other post. Write that change order or keep painting that original color. She's use to getting what she wants...that's on you to tell her otherwise.


I agree. Not so much comparing apples to bowling balls per se just expanding on the point that there are grinders in every culture as well as every income bracket.

On a side note its a national holiday here in Canada today or in our line of work what I call a "paperwork" day and holy moly Ive got a ton of it to do.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

She can absolutely get what she wants. As long as she is willing to pay for it.
That's when you stop work,inform her of the costs associated with the change (paint already purchased and not able to use,lost time,repaint time). Get her to choose and approve a new color.Give her the cost(be reasonable) and move forward.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Paint Pro CA said:


> On a side note its a national holiday here in Canada today or in our line of work what I call a "paperwork" day and holy moly Ive got a ton of it to do.


I worked today because I didn't know what day it was!

That and the fact that I've been up since 3:30am due to a thunderstorm and angry dogs.

And the fact that the customers I was working for were not the weeding out type. Class act people.

Happy Canada Day!


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## MHelpdesk (May 22, 2014)

In another life I worked for a friend's company doing Venetian plaster work. We were knee-deep into a job at a high end boutique that took, if I remember aright, 12 separate applications, each of which had to dry 10 hours, when the client called from Paris and said they'd moved up the opening date by a week. We killed ourselves laughing and just handed the phone to the cabinetmaker they'd flown in from Brazil to hand-make the display racks, whose timelines were even longer than ours. In other cases, where jobs were possible but not comfortable to get done ASAP, I've charged my "emergency" rate, which is literally double my normal rate.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I kind of tried to convey this to the HO that wanted their exterior painted before they moved in. But, I don't think that they got the message. I am learning this summer that we have a lot of summer home/cottages (which I already knew) HO that want work done asap so that they can enjoy it. Why they could not call during the early spring is beyond my comprehension.


It's like buying a new car. when people want it, they want it now.

They may have thought about painting in early spring but didn't call you till they had cash in hand and were ready to go. People want instant gratification. 

I called a plumber and he was here several hours after my call, what do you mean I have to wait 2 weeks for you to paint my house? 

That is how people think.


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## PRECISIONVANCOUVER (Apr 15, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> We never use the homeowners washroom. Go up the road to McDonalds, our a gas station. Homeowners have said to us plenty of times 'here's the key code for the house, feel free to use the washroom, our grab a drink'.
> We've yet to do it


EXCATLY!

Go use the bathroom else where. It gives your business a more professional look and you shouldn't be reliant on your customers. There's a reason why they are calling YOU to do the job.

I don't ever accept, water, snacks, lunch, bathrooms, and etc from my clients.

I bring my own food/water and use my own bathrooms. Whether it be a Portable Toilet or the McDonald down the street.

Even when/if my clients offer me the snacks and bathroom use, I REFUSE no matter how hard they try to get me to accept their 'gifts'.


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## PRECISIONVANCOUVER (Apr 15, 2013)

Paint Pro CA said:


> Im guilty of this too. I learned the hard way that certain ethnic groups want the work done for next to nothing and then they still have the nerve to try and grind you on the amount of the final payment at the end of the job 9 times out of 10 even if you have a contract.
> 
> "No tax right?"
> "Pay everything at the end of the job?"
> ...



Yes, I weed out clients through ethnicity as-well. It mostly depends on how 'westernized' the person is. Because if they are born in another country and move to the western world or a 1 st generation minority. They are going to have cheap and nuisance customs for this trade.

But anyways, If I hear an accent that I don't service. I say "Sorry we are too busy to take on any work." *BEEP* and the phone turns off.


Im in this trade for me. Not too get dicked around by some cheap person trying to rip me off. NO THANKS!


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

PRECISIONVANCOUVER said:


> Yes, I weed out clients through ethnicity as-well. It mostly depends on how 'westernized' the person is. Because if they are born in another country and move to the western world or a 1 st generation minority. They are going to have cheap and nuisance customs for this trade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You must be turning away jobs left right and center in Vancouver than 


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

There is many truths on here, and I think some of these truths need to be clarified a little more precisely, namely the bathroom issue. I am an owner operator, and I sell my services very effectively and work very closely with all my homeowners on every aspect of the job. As I am in most of my homeowners homes for as much as a month, I grow very close with them. I do not always accept "gifts" such as snacks or drinks, but it is because of my strict dietary exceptions rather than my not wanting to infringe. As for the bathroom, since the trip to most other bathrooms is 10 minutes there, 5-10 minutes at bathroom, 10 minutes back, then cost effectively it doesn't make much sense to lose that kind of time twice a day? But, if what the others are saying is that they don't accept these favors from the homeowner, then I can only see this as working if you all have crews larger than 3 ppl, because then it is a constant in n out stampede into their homes, which also creates superfluous interaction for the homeowner with the laborers.
Exceptions are key here gentleman, it is just important that we spell out the whys, as not every painter on here is a larger operation, which is what makes this forum so interesting: to see the whys, how's, and what's to every company!


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

As for the whole, "when people want it, they want it now" attitude, well that's when salesmanship comes into play. You HAVE GOT to SELL them on:
1. Why your service is superior.
2. Why yours can be costlier.
3. Why they should pay the difference.
4. And finally, why waiting for you is the best option for them to receive the best investment on their hard-earned dollars. (Because this is not just a paint-job, it IS an investment that ups the curb-appeal of their home, livability, overall comfort, peace of mind, etc...)


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Exactoman said:


> As for the whole, "when people want it, they want it now" attitude, well that's when salesmanship comes into play. You HAVE GOT to SELL them on:...
> ... 4. And finally, why waiting for you is the best option for them to receive the best investment on their hard-earned dollars. (Because this is not just a paint-job, it IS an investment that ups the curb-appeal of their home, livability, overall comfort, peace of mind, etc...)
> 
> 
> ...


Well put. 

As has been mentioned, we live in an immediate gratification society. I truly feel a third of the people who contact us think we are sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring. Usually with a little patient explaining they grasp reality and realize they will need to wait. 

Most "time sensitive" jobs tend to be homes which have recently been bought or are going to go on the market. In just about every other situation the "immediacy" exists only in the HO's mind and that can usually be corrected. If not, I wish them luck and caution them to be sure and get references for anyone who says they can start at once.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Can a small business that lends itself to a professional appearance by utilizing all of the social media tools and traditional marketing tools, actually be misleading consumers into believing that they would be able to provide expeditious service rather then being scheduled out for an extended period of time? And how does a small painting contractor deal with that? 

Do you tell them up front that you do not have the resources to accommodate them in a timelier fashion that perhaps a larger company could? And how difficult is it to operate in a market where most painting clients view a painting company as having the means to provide them with immediate service. Particularly, when most homeowners look at a paint job as merely changing colors, or at worst, patching a few cracks they've seen on the walls?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I wonder if there is a limit to projecting a higher level of organizational professionalism as a small OMPS (One Man Painting Show), before appearing no more adequate for the task then a rent a cop. Where the more he begins to look like actual law enforcement, the more inadequate he becomes.


And this is not an attack on OMPS's, but rather a view on providing a sustainable projection of ones services and capabilities.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I wonder if there is a limit to projecting a higher level of organizational professionalism as a small OMPS (One Man Painting Show), before appearing no more adequate for the task then a rent a cop. Where the more he begins to look like actual law enforcement, the more inadequate he becomes.
> 
> 
> And this is not an attack on OMPS's, but rather a view on providing a sustainable projection of ones services and capabilities.


This is a really thought-provoking post CApainter. Additionally, it addresses what I have been grappling with in my mind for quite some time now.

I am in the process of making a website and a Facebook business page. I am behind the times in terms of social media marketing and want the increase in potential customers that these will provide. On the other hand, I wonder will I be able to expeditiously take on the work I hope I will receive. 

I don't want to put the cart before the horse, so to speak, but understand that I must increase my customer base. Only time will tell...


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I wonder if there is a limit to projecting a higher level of organizational professionalism as a small OMPS (One Man Painting Show), before appearing no more adequate for the task then a rent a cop. Where the more he begins to look like actual actual law enforcement, the more inadequate he becomes.
> 
> 
> And this is not an attack on OMPS's, but rather a view on providing a sustainable projection of ones services.


I think part of the answer to that is that most small operators rely mostly on repeats and referrals as their source of leads/business. I hear it all the time from customers "I know you stay busy, I just want to get on your list."

In rereading that, it may sound egotistical on my part, but that's not the case here. What I'm saying is, if as a small operator you get into the right market and build a reputation of being honest, trustworthy,and provide first class work, the clients will wait for you. (Within reason)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SemiproJohn,

There's no question that advances in social media and its access to anyone selling a product, has provided the opportunity for exponential growth. But given the feed back from many PT members who are OMS's, assuming more customers will require them to step out of their comfort zones. And most aren't willing to do that because of design. They became contractors to have the ability to work within their own comfort zones and parameters without the influence or overwhelming demands of outside forces.

I suspect moving to the next level of organizational professionalism will require meeting the overwhelming demands of outside forces. 

Bottom line, If you advertise that you have it, you better be ready to use it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> This is a really thought-provoking post CApainter. Additionally, it addresses what I have been grappling with in my mind for quite some time now.
> 
> I am in the process of making a website and a Facebook business page. I am behind the times in terms of social media marketing and want the increase in potential customers that these will provide. On the other hand, I wonder will I be able to expeditiously take on the work I hope I will receive.
> 
> I don't want to put the cart before the horse, so to speak, but understand that I must increase my customer base. Only time will tell...


It's a balancing act. To meet the demand you need more painters, in order to hire more painters you need the demand. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?:blink:

That's the fun of being self-employed. :thumbsup:


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> SemiproJohn,
> 
> There's no question that advances in social media and its access to anyone selling a product, has provided the opportunity for exponential growth. But given the feed back from many PT members who are OMS's, assuming more customers will require them to step out of their comfort zones. And most aren't willing to do that because of design. They became contractors to have the ability to work within their own comfort zones and parameters without the influence or overwhelming demands of outside forces.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. And that is a daunting "potentiality" for me at the present time. So much so that I find myself procrastinating at completing the computer work required to launch the sites. I am prepared to hire only one other person to help me for the time being, and I am not sure that will be enough. Of course, that is only the tip of the iceberg. 

I only have two and a half years under my belt...and not large enough of a client base to prosper solely on referrals and word of mouth. It feels like a catch-22...I'm not big enough to take on a considerably larger workload, yet I need significantly more work in order to prosper. I'm treading water and not liking it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> SemiproJohn,
> 
> There's no question that advances in social media and its access to anyone selling a product, has provided the opportunity for exponential growth. But given the feed back from many PT members who are OMS's, assuming more customers will require them to step out of their comfort zones. And most aren't willing to do that because of design. They became contractors to have the ability to work within their own comfort zones and parameters without the influence or overwhelming demands of outside forces.
> 
> ...


CA, I know I've said this before, but you really did miss your calling. 

You really are a Wordsmith. :thumbsup:

*Either that or you're as full of chit as a Christmas goose!*


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> CA, I know I've said this before, but you really did miss your calling.
> 
> You really are a Wordsmith. :thumbsup:


I agreee...he and Gough are quite the cunning linguists. :thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> I think part of the answer to that is that most small operators rely mostly on repeats and referrals as their source of leads/business. I hear it all the time from customers "I know you stay busy, I just want to get on your list."
> 
> In rereading that, it may sound egotistical on my part, but that's not the case here. What I'm saying is, if as a small operator you get into the right market and build a reputation of being honest, trustworthy,and provide first class work, the clients will wait for you. (Within reason)


And that's to be expected if you've developed a referenced based clientele that understands the dynamics of your company. However, it's the pursuit of social media and web site advertisement by OMPS's, without regard to how they are actually going to fulfill their customer commitments, other then to schedule them way out, that seems to create problems. This is often described as booking out to so and so month. 

I'm not sure its reasonable for any homeowner to expect to be booked out so far unless there was a good reason, like a seasonal conflict.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good conversation guys! Thanks! 

And SemiproJohn, the mere fact that you are actually putting efforts into planning before you pull the trigger, puts you ahead of many others. Nothing wrong with being cautious and prepared before entering areas outside of your comfort zone.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> CA, I know I've said this before, but you really did miss your calling.
> 
> You really are a Wordsmith. :thumbsup:
> 
> *Either that or you're as full of chit as a Christmas goose!*


CA, I meant to put that last sentence in that tiny font and light color to indicate an unspoken afterthought, but my computer skills let me down.........again! :thumbup:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

My clients wait for me, and I just don't get referrals. I do door to door, have neighbors come talk to me when I've done exteriors, do mailings, leave flyers...and even new clients will wait. I work extremely long hours if I have to get a job done in a certain period of time, and while I'm no superman, def no 5,000 sq ft homes in a week, I have been tackling 2500-3000 sqft interiors, ceiling trim walls, all brush and roll in 3 weeks time. And that's with it looking good. 
I know there are certain limitations, and I have one guy I can call who can come help me tackle major parts of exteriors, or large foyers and great rooms if I need. But for the most part, I really do do it all.
The one thing I am seeing though, is that all of my work is getting farther and farther away from where I live!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> I think part of the answer to that is that most small operators rely mostly on repeats and referrals as their source of leads/business. I hear it all the time from customers "I know you stay busy, I just want to get on your list."
> 
> In rereading that, it may sound egotistical on my part, but that's not the case here. What I'm saying is, if as a small operator you get into the right market and build a reputation of being honest, trustworthy,and provide first class work, the clients will wait for you. (Within reason)


Ditto for me (I was going to post a more lengthly reply but you put it perfectly).


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> CA, I know I've said this before, but you really did miss your calling.
> 
> You really are a Wordsmith. :thumbsup:
> 
> *Either that or you're as full of chit as a Christmas goose!*





slinger58 said:


> CA, I meant to put that last sentence in that tiny font and light color to indicate an unspoken afterthought, but my computer skills let me down.........again! :thumbup:



I think your Freudian slip is showing. :whistling2:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> Absolutely. And that is a daunting "potentiality" for me at the present time. So much so that I find myself procrastinating at completing the computer work required to launch the sites. I am prepared to hire only one other person to help me for the time being, and I am not sure that will be enough. Of course, that is only the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> I only have two and a half years under my belt...and not large enough of a client base to prosper solely on referrals and word of mouth. It feels like a catch-22...I'm not big enough to take on a considerably larger workload, yet I need significantly more work in order to prosper. I'm treading water and not liking it.


I was in the same boat. I started the season hoping to grow. I got a few contracts lined up, hired a couple guys, bought new equipment. Things didn't work out, I ended up spending a lot of unneeded money. I tried growing to fast. 
I got way to caught up in running around doing 8+ estimates a week and not getting any of them. So many tire kickers googling painters. 

So now, I have two full time painters and my brother who can help me out sa a labourer once in a while. Plus me. And I try to do my estimates in the evening as much as possible now. 
Ill be happy to keep the three of us busy all season and hopefully into the winter. Keep focused on quality and getting more referrals. Next year I will be more prepared to hire one or two guys, and keep moving on like that each year to come. 

If your not a natural leader of many guys, then its a big learning curve every employee you get, and its best to take it slow. I learnt that the hard way.


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## MSJ Painting (Jan 27, 2013)

What an awesome turn this thread has taken. I literally beat myself up every night wrestling with how I am going to grow my business, feed my family, and have enough work to feed my guys families too...I can't bid the big jobs without having guys I can feel confident will do the work properly, but I can't afford to hire more if I don't land enough work...so u wanna start a painting business huh....nice to know that the struggle is alive in all of you veterans as well...thanks to all who have put their 2 cents in...really good thread here.

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## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

It can be a real roller coaster out their some times I feel I need more guys but can I keep them busy year round or can we just work more hours to keep up with the seasonal demand , then theirs the payroll and insurance and tax's that go along with it and if we work longer days can we keep quality were it needs to be to .


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

If I only looked at 8 a week I would be out of business. I personally look at 3 -4 a day 5-6 days a week. We probably reject 2-5 calls for proposals a day as well


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

.....:whistling2:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> If I only looked at 8 a week I would be out of business. I personally look at 3 -4 a day 5-6 days a week. We probably reject 2-5 calls for proposals a day as well


But 8 a week for me is more than plenty. Now to make 8 a week of referrals. Than ill be more comfortable attempting to grow more.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

SemiproJohn said:


> I agreee...he and Gough are quite the cunning linguists. :thumbup:


read that real fast a couple times


I think your Freudian slip is showing. :whistling2:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Painter-Aaron said:


> But 8 a week for me is more than plenty. Now to make 8 a week of referrals. Than ill be more comfortable attempting to grow more.


Yes,this just shows how every business is a bit different and what you need for profit is different then the next guy.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

chrisn said:


> read that real fast a couple times
> 
> 
> I think your Freudian slip is showing. :whistling2:


_Nothing_ gets past you, does it?

Lol. I saw this post today while eating lunch and almost choked on my ham sandwich! 

I hereby nominate this post for the PT "Catch of the Year" award. :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SemiproJohn said:


> I agreee...he and Gough are quite the cunning linguists. :thumbup:


And both can also be master debaters.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> And both can also be master debaters.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

We old guys are a horrible bunch, are we not? :thumbsup:

I would have thought that one of the PT guys from "Down Under" would have caught this first. :jester:

But as we all know, chrisn is awake and watching before anyone else, no matter the time zone. :yes:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> We old guys are a horrible bunch, are we not? :thumbsup:
> 
> I would have thought that one of the PT guys from "Down Under" would have caught this first. :jester:
> 
> But as we all know, chrisn is awake and watching before anyone else, no matter the time zone. :yes:


 
you got that right:yes:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Just to add a positive spin to this thread... I just finished working for a couple on their summer cottage. They're both almost 90yrs old and have been married for 62yrs. They were easily the nicest and funniest customers I've worked for in a long time. They told me they were doing their last paint job on the cottage before they go "bye bye" with the intentions of passing on the cottage to their kids and grand kids.

Sadly, I won't be painting for them again from the sounds of things but I would do so in a heartbeat. Got a lovely thank you card, a hug from the woman and a $250 tip!


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## Zman828 (Mar 11, 2013)

I first ask people when they are wanting to do the work so I can see if I am even able to do it with how my schedule is. Some people still want me to come give them a quote even if I can't do the project when they want me too. This trips me out and I just politely say I don't have time for that! lol

____________________
painters in Jacksonville FL


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

^^ Thats because they just want a comparison with other painters quotes and they don't intend to hire you.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brian C said:


> ^^ Thats because they just want a comparison with other painters quotes and they don't intend to hire you.


Yep. I'm not in business to help people decide if they are getting a good deal or not from _other_ painters.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Painter-Aaron said:


> I was in the same boat. I started the season hoping to grow. I got a few contracts lined up, hired a couple guys, bought new equipment. Things didn't work out, I ended up spending a lot of unneeded money. I tried growing to fast.
> *I got way to caught up in running around doing 8+ estimates a week and not getting any of them.* So many tire kickers googling painters.
> 
> So now, I have two full time painters and my brother who can help me out sa a labourer once in a while. Plus me. And I try to do my estimates in the evening as much as possible now.
> ...


*8+ estimates and not land any work from them? *Aaron, did you ever think these people are not tire kickers? Maybe you need to up your game regarding your sales presentation.

I'm at a close ratio of 3:8 (and I am not the cheapest place to take a leak in town).


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

PaintersUnite said:


> *8+ estimates and not land any work from them? *Aaron, did you ever think these people are not tire kickers? Maybe you need to up your game regarding your sales presentation.
> 
> I'm at a close ratio of 3:8 (and I am not the cheapest place to take a leak in town).


At that time I have to say I was at the top of my game. But at the time of the post no one was accepting, but a crap load of oeople called me shortly afyer that post accepting my bids, all almost simultaneously. Kind of a weird turn of events but it's all working out well.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

RH said:


> Yep. *I'm not in business to help people decide if they are getting a good deal or not from other painters.*




Serious, serious words of wisdom. I am going to internalize this and use it as a mantra.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I have experienced this exact issue myself many times. I tell the homeowner i'm busy for months but they still want a price on the work. You know they are just wanting a comparison for another quote they received.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Great Thread

Very important to meet with client on estimate

Wont go if they wont meet

Hard fast rule


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

RH said:


> Yep. I'm not in business to help people decide if they are getting a good deal or not from _other_ painters.


No one is. Problem is, how do you identify these people when they call?

I did have a guy call this winter and say, "I am having some remodeling done, and he gave me a price to do painting. I want to make sure he is not over charging me". 

I said, "tell me what he is charging you, and I will let you know"?

He said "the job is complicated, you would have to see it"

I said, "I'm not going to come out, just to give you a comparative quote, if I don't have a chance of getting the job". 

He said, "oh no, I may end up going with you". 

Yeah right! :blink:


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Homeowner left a message on my voice mail for a bid on their house. I ring them back and they ask me what company are you from again ? 
I know they are receiving multiple prices from other painting firms. I dismiss this job as I won't waste my time pricing the work.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

What kinds of questions do you use to qualify the lead that won't piss off legitimate customers? I think there is a balance to be struck between not chasing the wind and shooting yourself in the foot. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Can a small business that lends itself to a professional appearance by utilizing all of the social media tools and traditional marketing tools, actually be misleading consumers into believing that they would be able to provide expeditious service rather then being scheduled out for an extended period of time? And how does a small painting contractor deal with that?
> 
> Do you tell them up front that you do not have the resources to accommodate them in a timelier fashion that perhaps a larger company could? And how difficult is it to operate in a market where most painting clients view a painting company as having the means to provide them with immediate service. Particularly, when most homeowners look at a paint job as merely changing colors, or at worst, patching a few cracks they've seen on the walls?



Are you saying that by utilizing these advertising resources (and not making specific claims like, "No job too big in no time flat!") you are thereby inferring...or even declaring...that your company can meet the requirements that most larger painting companies can meet? I assume you're coming more from a logistical perspective (yes, we CAN do that job and we can get it done in X time) rather from a booking perspective. I think most people can understand when a company in demand is booked 6 months out. 

If also from a demand/booking perspective, let's say I'm a painting contractor who can tackle most jobs logistically but I choose to only run two or three crews; I have no desire to grow beyond that point. And with that, I'm legitimately booked 6 months out. Would I still be projecting something that isn't there?


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> No one is. Problem is, how do you identify these people when they call?
> 
> I did have a guy call this winter and say, "I am having some remodeling done, and he gave me a price to do painting. I want to make sure he is not over charging me".
> 
> ...


The scenario above is more of a request for consulting than a straight bid and I would have no problem telling them there would be a fee associated with me coming out. If they did go with me the fee would then apply to the actual job. 

Going out to bid time wasters just comes with the territory. And often you just _can't_ ID them - at least not when it counts.


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## Red dog (Jul 20, 2014)

Man I thought this thread had something to do with SR. Carry on.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I can't tell you HOW many times I've given quotes to obvious price hunters, and have gotten word back a few months later that they wish NOW they had paid the extra to have it done right. 

Sometimes we just have to plant the seed and wait for the harvest.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> Are you saying that by utilizing these advertising resources (and not making specific claims like, "No job too big in no time flat!") you are thereby inferring...or even declaring...that your company can meet the requirements that most larger painting companies can meet?


I was suggesting that anyone who owns a painting business, regardless of their trade experience or business aptitude, can create, or have someone else create, a professional looking web site. And given that online line shopping for contractors is becoming a popular way for homeowners to search for a contractor, it is likely they will be drawn in by a professional looking web site that doesn't necessarily reveal the size or resources that a painting company can supply, in order to meet the demands of the homeowner.

And I would argue, that the average homeowner's demands of a painting contractor would be the best price with the quickest turnaround. I would also argue that a smaller painting company, or OMS, will require more time and cost to the homeowner, then a larger company would. 




804 Paint said:


> I assume you're coming more from a logistical perspective (yes, we CAN do that job and we can get it done in X time) rather from a booking perspective. I think most people can understand when a company in demand is booked 6 months out.


I'm not convinced the average painting company is so in demand that they have to book homeowners out six months. That is unless the painting contractor is operating in a very small market, like high end work within a low populated area.




804 Paint said:


> also from a demand/booking perspective, let's say I'm a painting contractor who can tackle most jobs logistically but I choose to only run two or three crews; I have no desire to grow beyond that point. And with that, I'm legitimately booked 6 months out. Would I still be projecting something that isn't there?


First, I wouldn't consider having two to three crews that small of a painting company, but I do think its unreasonable to book a homeowner out for six months.

If you are placing people on the job within a reasonable amount of time, and the homeowners are OK with the schedule, then I don't believe that would be misleading. 


The truth is, the apathetic part of me finds a lot of the business talk on PT to be merely opportunities for average painters to express themselves as if they really have anymore entrepreneurial vision or aptitude then the next guy who has access to a computer and a facebook account. I maintain that most painting contractors are just former employees who weren't a "good fit" with their former employers. 

And given that the business strategies, modeled after leading corporations, are now conveniently piped directly into the average start up owner's home, via retina display, what professional painter wouldn't want to have the appeal and sophistication associated with a business person or leader in the industry. It just makes it all that easier to point out the flaws associated with the simple painter or unsophisticated hack. 


However, the empathetic side of me understands that there are many established business owners, and those retired, who I respect tremendously. And who I admire for their courage and ability to sustain themselves with the difficult endeavor that running a painting business can prove to be. It's not something I take lightly. This is one of the reasons I didn't go in that direction.

I suppose it shouldn't be expected of me, _as a non business owner_, to be included in the entrepreneurial back slapping or business model comparisons that take place at PT. But, it shouldn't exclude me from observing and commenting on what I've viewed from the perspective of an outsider. Particularly, if it engages discussion.

And at the end of the day, PT is really about discussion, not necessarily painting.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

CApainter, I don't think you have an apathetic bone in you. 
I am afraid that if I keep my comments shorter or not as well thought out and explained as yours, then I come across as apathetic (or lazy).
Your points are right on and very valid.
We never have anyone wait for more than a month, or what would be the point of creating demand for our company and services?
The key is to have the right mix and number of painters that are:
full time, part time, permanent, summer help, experienced, less experienced but all bright and easily trainable.
Also they need to be interchangeable in the crews (chemistry and experience)
We have 10-12 painters now and we can handle up 4-5 job sites of any size(within reason) with the right operational support.
We can grow a little or shrink a little to adjust to the workflow but the painters will always represent us well, 
and the right customers will never get a no, or wait too long for us.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

George Z said:


> We never have anyone wait for more than a month, or what would be the point of creating demand for our company and services?


This was the point I was trying to make in an earlier thread in regards to the PT emphasis on SEO's, websites, and a host of other marketing strategies to bring in new "clients", when apparently, all of the referrals everyone seems to be getting, are creating the need to book homeowners six month out.

But I guess I'm supposed to assume that with all of the referred based clientele out there, painters are in such high demand for their exquisite service, that Joe Homeowner is going to accept a six month start date. Especially, when I thought painting contractors were a dime a dozen?

Maybe the Paint Talk demographic really is made up of exclusively high end painting contractors! 

Now I'm really intimidated.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> This was the point I was trying to make in an earlier thread in regards to the PT emphasis on SEO's, websites, and a host of other marketing strategies, in the concerted effort to bring in new "clients", when apparently, all the referrals everyone seems to be getting, are creating the need to book homeowners six month out.
> 
> But I guess I'm supposed to assume that with all of the referred based clientele, painters out there are in such high demand for their exquisite service, that Joe Homeowner is going to accept a six month start date. Especially, when all along I thought painting contractors were a dime a dozen?
> 
> ...


Not to worry CA, I'm living proof that this isn't the case. Once in a while I get a high-end client. Too much of the time I'm doing renovation work in manufactured homes. Nothing could be further from hi-end work. I'm hoping to eventually extricate myself from my current situation. And I appreciate your thoughts about tech-marketing as it pertains to One Man Shows.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

John,

I'm one of those PT entrepreneurial wannabes you talk about. After a few years I've learned the lingo and toss in words and catch phrases like "know my numbers", "systems", "apples to oranges", "ROI", and many others just so the real pros will be baffled and hoodwinked into believing I'm a real pro who not only knows my craft but knows how to turn a profit. 

In reality, I'm that 26 y.o. glued to the computer in my mother's basement playing Call of Duty, Need for Speed, Titanfall , et al. and decided to challenge my role playing abilities by joining a penny ante trade site and convincing you all I'm a 60 something crusty old paperhanger. 

How'm I doin ?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> John,
> 
> I'm one of those PT entrepreneurial wannabes you talk about. After a few years I've learned the lingo and toss in words and catch phrases like "know my numbers", "systems", "apples to oranges", "ROI", and many others just so the real pros will be baffled and hoodwinked into believing I'm a real pro who not only knows my craft but knows how to turn a profit.
> 
> ...


At least you pretended to be a contractor. Who in their right mind would pretend to be an employee? ...oh:blink:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Seriously,

As much as PT has provided valuable information on best practices, in terms of products, application, and small business management, it has also been a techno-influenced platform for unemployed painters to embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools reserved for a more upper level corporate culture.

I sometimes wonder if the appeal and encouragement of business ownership doesn't have some people getting too far ahead of themselves. Or full of themselves, as often is the case.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Seriously,
> 
> As much as PT has provided valuable information on best practices, in terms of products, application, and small business management, it has also been a techno-influenced platform for unemployed painters to embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools reserved for a more upper level corporate culture.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if the appeal and encouragement of business ownership doesn't have some people getting too far ahead of themselves. Or full of themselves, as often is the case.


THAT'S the 400 lb gorilla in this room.

While obviously there are some folks that are what they appear to be, there are PLENTY here that like the role and play it up to the fullest. 

And being one of the top 5 BS'ers, I can spot my brethren a mile away :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> THAT'S the 400 lb gorilla in this room.
> 
> While obviously there are some folks that are what they appear to be, there are PLENTY here that like the role and play it up to the fullest.
> 
> And being one of the top 5 BS'ers, I can spot my brethren a mile away :thumbsup:


Bill,

I sense that you've sustained yourself as a self employed wall paper hanger, long before "market strategy" was used for anything other then plotting whether to visit the meat aisle before the canned goods aisle.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Seriously,
> 
> As much as PT has provided valuable information on best practices, in terms of products, application, and small business management, it has also been a *techno-influenced platform* for *unemployed painters to embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools reserved for a more upper level corporate culture.*
> 
> I sometimes wonder if the appeal and encouragement of business ownership doesn't have some people getting too far ahead of themselves. Or full of themselves, as often is the case.


CA, all do respect, you have a strange lingo going on here on this forum. You seem to have a knack for using a lot of fancy words that form incomprehensible statements. 

*Question:* How does an "unemployed painter", embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools? 

And what exactly is the meaning of, "reserved for a more upper level corporate culture"? :blink:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> THAT'S the 400 lb gorilla in this room.
> 
> :thumbsup:


Over at: Plastic Surgery Forum there's a guy named CaPlasticSurgeon
He happens to be "Plastic Surgeon of the Month". Hummm, I'm sure it's just coincidental... :jester: J/K


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PaintersUnite said:


> Over at: Plastic Surgery Forum there's a guy named CaPlasticSurgeon
> He happens to be "Plastic Surgeon of the Month". Hummm, I'm sure it's just coincidental... :jester: J/K


what a great place for an excuse to post your favorite upper nudity shots.

How does one ever FIND a site like that ?


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Brian C said:


> Homeowner left a message on my voice mail for a bid on their house. I ring them back and they ask me what company are you from again ?
> I know they are receiving multiple prices from other painting firms. I dismiss this job as I won't waste my time pricing the work.


I don't understand this. Does this mean you will only bid if you are the only one bidding? We are taught early to shop around for the best of anything including pricing. It just seems that bidding is such a big part of this business to not bid just because others are bidding doesn't seem right. Sometimes we're high, sometimes we're low, sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't, on to the next one. But if you don't bid you know the out come. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

I have bid on some I thought were "tire kickers" and did a full itemized bid and explained why my price was what it was and what they were going to get. And I got some that turned out to be really good. I got referrals and several times once they saw what you were doing the job grew.

Probably a poor analogy but it seems like hoping to win the lottery, but you didn't buy a ticket. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Thanks.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Toolnut said:


> I don't understand this. Does this mean you will only bid if you are the only one bidding? We are taught early to shop around for the best of anything including pricing. It just seems that bidding is such a big part of this business to not bid just because others are bidding doesn't seem right. Sometimes we're high, sometimes we're low, sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't, on to the next one. But if you don't bid you know the out come. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
> 
> I have bid on some I thought were "tire kickers" and did a full itemized bid and explained why my price was what it was and what they were going to get. And I got some that turned out to be really good. I got referrals and several times once they saw what you were doing the job grew.
> 
> Probably a poor analogy but it seems like hoping to win the lottery, but you didn't buy a ticket. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Thanks.


Your post is spot on

You miss 100% of the shots you dont take

Seems like he is leaving money on the table

I expect EVERYONE to be getting other quotes

I sell the difference between me and them


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> CA, all do respect, you have a strange lingo going on here on this forum. You seem to have a knack for using a lot of fancy words that form incomprehensible statements.
> 
> *Question:* How does an "unemployed painter", embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools?
> 
> And what exactly is the meaning of, "reserved for a more upper level corporate culture"? :blink:



I don't think what he's saying is hard to understand, it's just that he writes so much I have to carve out the time to give an adequate response. Monster time needed to respond from a dumb phone. 

CA- Here's the thing: I think people for the most part have come to understand that just because someone posts a decent video on YouTube that it doesn't make them a Hollywood producer. I think you catch my drift there so there's no need to delve further. 

You also seem to be lumping posers who have no real plan or desire to build a strong company with those who do. And you offer no alternative solution to the methods you seem to find distasteful. Most successful people got there by projecting an element of what they envisioned. 

What should a proper OMS with a desire to grow look like? What methods are proper for them to employ? A half-assed logo and website? No website and a beat-up van with crusty ladders? And at what point does an OMS suddenly swap out the crusties for a nice site, van and website? That stuff doesn't happen overnight. Building your business and brand ORGANICALLY is a process. 

Perhaps booking people out 6 months isn't good...I hear you on that. The alternative is to flatly turn down work until you're confident you can maintain the resources to handle it. I think people will get over being turned down. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Homeowner left a message on my voice mail for a bid on their house. I ring them back and they ask me what company are you from again ?
> I know they are receiving multiple prices from other painting firms. I dismiss this job as I won't waste my time pricing the work.


When the homeowner has lost track of where he was in the list of painters in the Yellow Pages, that is generally a good sign that he's a tire kicker.:thumbsup:

Not always, but often enough that that's the way to bet.

It's really about skewing the odds in your favor. If we bid every lead we ever got, I'd imagine we'd close some small fraction. From experience, I'd guess that our prices would mean that it would be 1:10 to 1:5, something like that. That's spending a lot of my time visiting with owners and assembling proposals, 80-90% of it wasted. 

Instead, if I can pre-qualify some of those leads in a brief phone call, I can bump our closing rate substantially. Not only does that mean less time sent on bids that go nowhere, but it also helps us concentrate our limited resources on higher-margin jobs. 

One type of "error" is bidding on jobs that go nowhere; the other is not submitting bids that would be accepted. This seems analogous to the types of errors on which statisticians focus. They talk about "controlling error rates". For us, we'd rather miss out on the occasional job by not bidding than waste a lot of time submitting bids unlikely to be successful. Some of that is due to where we are in the arc of our business...and some of that is due to having an econometrician in the family.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> CA, all do respect, you have a strange lingo going on here on this forum. You seem to have a knack for using a lot of fancy words that form incomprehensible statements.



Thanks for the questions PaintersUnite. Everything I post at PT is just an opinion based on my observations as a painter and as an American citizen. I don't expect anyone to believe I have any authority on subjects dealing with anything other then applying paint.

Concerning the lingo. When trying to understand something that I'm reading, like a technical book, I prefer basic English then having to climb over wordy documents. Unfortunately, when I try to express myself in writing, I add all kinds of words in an effort to be comprehensible. Kind of ironic.

I've always liked the use of metaphors in writing. I also like the cadence or flow a sentence can have when spoken or allowed to drift through my mind. I didn't have any formal training in English or Writing past my senior year in high school. And even then, I hardly wrote anything at all, as anyone who reads what I write can tell by numerous grammatical errors. It wasn't until Paint Talk that I really began to express myself in writing. Before that, I would only write daily reports for my supervisors, and found that I could at least write something fairly technical and comprehensible.

However, given the opportunity, I like writing in a more stylized fashion. I believe it makes reading a little bit more interesting. 



> How does an "unemployed painter", embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools?


This phrase "unemployed painter" was intended to express my belief that many painters who are either part time, due to seasonal conditions, or unemployed due to their employer not having steady work, gravitate towards the idea of running their own business. I myself have experienced this over the years. I did side work when I was forced into down time due to seasonal conditions. It was tempting to go off on my own every time I received a check in my name, or better yet, cash.

But it never felt right to have a business card made, or have a sophisticated contract form made up. Because, I didn't have a business license, and I understood that these occasional lucrative side jobs did not a business make. In other words, if I cut my ties with my employer to be a painting contractor, I was going to have to hustle to scrounge up more work and eventually have to hire someone to help me. And given the pool of painters I was exposed to in the 80's and 90's, I decided to remain an employee.

"Embellish in the entrepreneurial spirit and tools" At first, I wasn't sure embellish was used properly in this sentence, but I kept it any ways.

My thinking here was that the internet promotes self employment. What good is having a web site if you're not selling something? And with a web site comes links to other web sites, and so on and so forth. And given the sophisticated blogs, web sites, and social media groups that address business behavior, its to be expected that these discussions will be influenced by models that were developed for corporate organizations, or even based on military organizational structures.

It's not that any of the knowledge that comes from the corporate culture is bad for small businesses. It just seems that the spirit of promoting entrepreneurialism at every internet turn, encourages the over arming or inundation to sell business tools. Which in many cases, require more resources to maintain then the start up painter may need in order to complete a paint job and move on to the next. But we all know sexy sells. 



> And what exactly is the meaning of, "reserved for a more upper level corporate culture"? :blink:


To put it simply, an OMS painter doesn't require a corporate organizational structure in order to paint junior's bedroom, or granny's kitchen cabinets.

And this is all one man's opinion. No offense to anyone.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CA didn't get to be Pro Painter of the Month just because he knew which end of the brush to dip into the paint.

Rock on, John. :thumbup:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> To put it simply, an OMS painter doesn't require a corporate organizational structure in order to paint junior's bedroom, or granny's kitchen cabinets.
> 
> And this is all one man's opinion. No offense to anyone.


Ha, as a one man show I am the entire corporate organizational structure! Accountant, brush cleaner, van cleaner, painter, mudder/taper, sales rep, advertiser, etc.

I'm pretty good at #2 and 4. Not so much at all others.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> I don't think what he's saying is hard to understand, it's just that he writes so much I have to carve out the time to give an adequate response. Monster time needed to respond from a dumb phone.





> CA- Here's the thing: I think people for the most part have come to understand that just because someone posts a decent video on YouTube that it doesn't make them a Hollywood producer. I think you catch my drift there so there's no need to delve further.


I think what you're implying is, that just because I'm wordy with my posts, and occasionally write something provocative, that it doesn't necessarily make me another F. Scott Fitzgerald. But it did get me Pro Painter of the Month!




> You also seem to be lumping posers who have no real plan or desire to build a strong company with those who do. And you offer no alternative solution to the methods you seem to find distasteful. Most successful people got there by projecting an element of what they envisioned.


I think you're right about this. I spend more time pointing out the absurdities of applying sophisticated business methods to basically glorified side job operations then I do to guys and gals who are the real deal. However, and as it relates to social forums where most of us are lousy writers with apparently nothing better to do , I find it more entertaining to read cynicism and humor then to read or write something mushy with empathy. 



> What should a proper OMS with a desire to grow look like? What methods are proper for them to employ? A half-assed logo and website? No website and a beat-up van with crusty ladders? And at what point does an OMS suddenly swap out the crusties for a nice site, van and website? That stuff doesn't happen overnight. Building your business and brand ORGANICALLY is a process.


804, I'm not even sure its about applying all of the sexy and sophisticated business tools available for the sprouting entrepreneur, as much as it is the need for these contractors in training, to announce every single accomplishment or business tool discovery they encounter. I'm sure you would think I was a pompous blow hard if I continuously announced all the overtime pay I received. Or the paid vacations and holidays I get as an employee. The great health care I receive. The brand new equipment I have . The purchasing power at my disposal. My cross training into facilities management. Etc. Etc, Etc. Pretty boring.

But as a self admitted employee, I have no qualifications to engage in the sophisticated business discussions other to to give an opinion. I'm cool with that. 





> Perhaps booking people out 6 months isn't good...I hear you on that. The alternative is to flatly turn down work until you're confident you can maintain the resources to handle it. I think people will get over being turned down.


 At the end of the day, and as an employee, I really could care less if a homeowner chooses to wait six months to have their garage painted because they've found a first class outfit on the internet that's booked up. 

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com[/QUOTE]


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sunday Morning at PT.

It's much better than Meet the Press!:yes:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Sunday Morning at PT.
> 
> It's much better than Meet the Press!:yes:


It does make you wonder if some of us are getting paid by the word:jester:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> It does make you wonder if some of us are getting paid by the word:jester:


Now we have to figure out how to get paid for each word we read! Maybe I'm not so bad at this business thing?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> It does make you wonder if some of us are getting paid by the word:jester:


I think it finally paid me about $8.73 for every 150 words, equaled to an average of $8.75 per hour. Minus the overhead for internet service, at $30.00 a month, I'm in the hole $2,170.00.

Writing doesn't pay. I do it for the art!


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> CA didn't get to be *Pro Painter of the Month* just because he knew which end of the brush to dip into the paint.
> 
> Rock on, John.


How and/or why a painter employee has the expertise and/or desire to participate in a thread like, "Weeding out Customers" is baffling to me?

I guess some people are good at talking the talking ... But can they actually walk the walk? Or are some here just hoodwinked by words? :blink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> How and/or why a painter employee has the expertise and/or desire to participate in a thread like, "Weeding out Customers" is baffling to me?
> 
> I guess some people are good at talking the talking ... But can they actually walk the walk? Or are some here just hoodwinked by words? :blink:




I don't think that should necessarily be an issue. Guess it depends on what level of responsibility an employee has within a company. Some may do pretty much everything a OMS does short of putting their money and name on the line. Still, those two things are big so yeah, until you've actually walked in an owner's shoes...


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I think what you're implying is, that just because I'm wordy with my posts, and occasionally write something provocative, that it doesn't necessarily make me another F. Scott Fitzgerald. But it did get me Pro Painter of the Month!


Not at all. What I was implying with the YouTube comment is that technology has gotten to the point now where anybody can do just about anything, and just about everybody knows it. SO, I don't think that having a nice-looking site, etc is _reserved_ for upper-level corporate cultures anymore. Most people understand that a good site and a Facebook page isn't hard to come by. If they don't, then they're dumb. I certainly don't think an OMS with a site and FB page is saying anything you seem to think it must imply simply by having such advertising tools.



> I'm not even sure its about applying all of the sexy and sophisticated business tools available for the sprouting entrepreneur, as much as it is the need for these contractors in training, to announce every single accomplishment or business tool discovery they encounter. I'm sure you would think I was a pompous blow hard if I continuously announced all the overtime pay I received. Or the paid vacations and holidays I get as an employee. The great health care I receive. The brand new equipment I have . The purchasing power at my disposal. My cross training into facilities management. Etc. Etc, Etc. Pretty boring.


"It" what? "It" being the root of your bloviating? I say bloviating in this instance because you just seem to be writing for the sake of writing (self-admittedly I think, too), not to challenge a certain approach with a more appropriate alternative. I am not sure who is announcing every business tool they encounter…then again, I don't spend as much time on PT as some. But as someone who desires to grow a business, I'm interested in learning about any tip, tool or trick that streamlines my operation, whether on the business end or the brush end. _That_, to me, is what PT is all about. Sharing useful information, learning what does and doesn't work, and of course those who have time for BSing find it useful for that. :thumbsup: Wish I had time for more of that.

On the grammatical side of things, should it be "a" OMS or "an" OMS?? I guess it depends on what you say when reading OMS…do you say "OMS" or "One-Man Show"?? :jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> How and/or why a painter employee has the expertise and/or desire to participate in a thread like, "Weeding out Customers" is baffling to me?
> 
> I guess some people are good at talking the talking ... But can they actually walk the walk? Or are some here just hoodwinked by words? :blink:


I never claimed to have any expertise in the subject of business. But until PT requires proof that members are legitimate painting contractors before posting in the forums, what prevents a member like me from participating in a thread if the subject is interesting? 

And given that "weeding out customers" is a subjective practice with no scientific evidence that certain customer behaviors are grounds for them being "weeded out", other then they aren't a "good fit" with the sensibilities of a particular painting contractor, what makes anyone one of you experts on the subject?

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is open for interpretation, not expert verification.

BTW, I don't consider myself good at talking or writing. I just try and follow the best practices of communication in the medium that's available to me.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> Not at all. What I was implying with the YouTube comment is that technology has gotten to the point now where anybody can do just about anything, and just about everybody knows it. SO, I don't think that having a nice-looking site, etc is _reserved_ for upper-level corporate cultures anymore. Most people understand that a good site and a Facebook page isn't hard to come by. If they don't, then they're dumb. I certainly don't think an OMS with a site and FB page is saying anything you seem to think it must imply simply by having such advertising tools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lost what i intended to post


Basically, I wanted to post that I think 804 and myself are communicating across a generational divide. I suspect that he is of the millennial generation, and better understands the common use of social media for business and advertisement in terms of the common mans usage.

I, on the other hand, am of the Baby Boom generation that did not grow up with devices that allowed instant advertisements of ourselves. Relationships were built in more personal environments. And to me, cynicism was a means to weed out people in social situations.

It also may be the reason why the older members here don't respond to my posts with such vitriol, but rather shake their heads when they see the one of two employees at paint talk rant in defiance among primarily painting contractors.

Not exactly what i lost, but close.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PT would be pretty boring if we all had the same backgrounds, experience, and perspectives. The more diversity the better IMO.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Must be a slow week in some parts of the country


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DunriteNJ said:


> Must be a slow week in some parts of the country


It's a holiday weekend over my way. Taking total advantage of it from the comfort of my home.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks. Its been fun guys!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> PT would be pretty boring if we all had the same backgrounds, experience, and perspectives. The more diversity the better IMO.


It's what keeps online forums like this going.

Vbulletin would be dead without diversity. Ha.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> How and/or why a painter employee has the expertise and/or desire to participate in a thread like, "Weeding out Customers" is baffling to me?
> 
> I guess some people are good at talking the talking ... But can they actually walk the walk? Or are some here just hoodwinked by words? :blink:


In my opinion CA has a vast knowledge in the painting trade

i have learned more from hands on workers like CA & Oden along with my painters who sweat in the sun, climb ladders all day long, deal with crazy homeowners and MAKE me money from their hard work doing it & listening to their feedback

close your mind & trash the hard working painter if you want but i know i've
learned a lot from them :thumbsup:

it help me weed out the unwanted , listen to your workers and you'll grow

Here is to the "painter employee" who are the backbone to my company and all the other companies :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HARD WORK ...


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Thanks. Its been fun guys!


Are you leaving to go spend your gift card ? :jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, so before this all became about the Pt Painter of the Month, the topic was actually about screening customers...

Bueller?

Anyone?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

CApainter said:


> lost what i intended to post
> 
> 
> Basically, I wanted to post that I think 804 and myself are communicating across a generational divide. I suspect that he is of the millennial generation, and better understands the common use of social media for business and advertisement in terms of the common mans usage.
> ...


Born in '78, if that helps. I actually would prefer my business be built almost fully referrals and relationships, so we're not that far apart. I'm in the very, very early stages of my business. I don't have a site or Facebook page at this point but I see nothing wrong with using such tools if they help put food on the table.

Vitriol? REALLY? That's taking it a bit too far, don't you think? Is it because I used the word bloviate? If you read the thread, you are the one that carved this rabbit trail…almost out of nowhere it seems (unless the tools reserved for upper-level corporate culture you were referring to are porta-potties). I basically chimed in to ask you, "What's the viable alternative?" more than once and you typed a lot of words but really didn't give an answer. So really, this thread took a very random turn and what we gained out of it was…? Seems you were just sharing a very random opinion, no?

Just in case…if I need to clarify my immediately preceding post, the "BSing" I referenced wasn't pointed at you in particular (since apparently I'm so hostile). It's plain to see on this site that many threads devolve into folks (who have gotten to know each other) shooting the bull with one another, nothing more. And I think it's a good thing…I just haven't developed those relationships here and was saying it would be nice to have the time to do so.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok, so before this all became about the Pt Painter of the Month, the topic was actually about screening customers...
> 
> Bueller?
> 
> Anyone?


See post #s 125 and 142.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Repaint Florida said:


> In my opinion CA has a vast knowledge in the painting trade


I am sure he does, I never said he didn’t.

My point is, what does any man/women know about starting & successfully running a business, if they have no experience doing so? 

What does an employee know about marketing strategies, SEO, payroll, estimating, sales, weeding out customers and/or tire kickers ? My guess is they know nothing.

What does an employee know about starting a business from the ground floor, sweating it out, not knowing if there is going to be a job the following week. Painting all day, then giving estimate after estimate, from 6:30 pm to 9:00 pm, 5 nights a week and Saturdays, just hoping he will be able to line enough work up to pay his bills at the end of the month? My guess is an employee knows nothing. 



Repaint Florida said:


> close your mind & trash the hard working painter if you want but i know i've


My mind is wide open. I am a realist. And I have not trashed the hard working painter as you have implied. That is something your mind has invented.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)




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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

But at least no tridents were used - yet.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

804 Paint said:


> Born in '78, if that helps. I actually would prefer my business be built almost fully referrals and relationships, so we're not that far apart. I'm in the very, very early stages of my business. I don't have a site or Facebook page at this point but I see nothing wrong with using such tools if they help put food on the table.
> 
> Vitriol? REALLY? That's taking it a bit too far, don't you think? Is it because I used the word bloviate? If you read the thread, you are the one that carved this rabbit trail…almost out of nowhere it seems (unless the tools reserved for upper-level corporate culture you were referring to are porta-potties). I basically chimed in to ask you, "What's the viable alternative?" more than once and you typed a lot of words but really didn't give an answer. So really, this thread took a very random turn and what we gained out of it was…? Seems you were just sharing a very random opinion, no?
> 
> Just in case…if I need to clarify my immediately preceding post, the "BSing" I referenced wasn't pointed at you in particular (since apparently I'm so hostile). It's plain to see on this site that many threads devolve into folks (who have gotten to know each other) shooting the bull with one another, nothing more. And I think it's a good thing…I just haven't developed those relationships here and was saying it would be nice to have the time to do so.



Yep. After awhile you start to feel most of what needs to be said has already been said and it's just BSing with other members that keeps it fun and interesting. That's why new members are good to have.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> I am sure he does, I never said he didn’t.
> 
> My point is, what does any man/women know about starting & successfully running a business, if they have no experience doing so?
> 
> ...


well, if you are doing that( working 84 hours a week) you should not have any time to be posting here, right?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

804 Paint said:


> Not at all. What I was implying with the YouTube comment is that technology has gotten to the point now where anybody can do just about anything, and just about everybody knows it. SO, I don't think that having a nice-looking site, etc is _reserved_ for upper-level corporate cultures anymore. Most people understand that a good site and a Facebook page isn't hard to come by. If they don't, then they're dumb. I certainly don't think an OMS with a site and FB page is saying anything you seem to think it must imply simply by having such advertising tools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bloviating. Hmm

Triple Word Score!


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

chrisn said:


> well, if you are doing that( working 84 hours a week) you should not have any time to be posting here, right?


That was me in 1992. Driving around in a Ford Escort (hatch back), with ski racks, carrying a 6', 24' & 32' Werner ladder on the roof of my car. It was ridiculous. But I survived the growing pains and have gone through all the trials & tribulations of starting a painting business. 

Today, 22 years later, a large portion of the learning curve is in the past. I actually give less estimates and get more jobs, by learning how to estimate and sell jobs better. And how to weed out the tire kickers & price shopper etc.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

PaintersUnite said:


> That was me in 1992. Driving around in a Ford Escort (hatch back), with ski racks, carrying a 6', 24' & 32' Werner ladder on the roof of my car. It was ridiculous. But I survived the growing pains and have gone through all the trials & tribulations of starting a painting business.
> 
> Today, 22 years later, a large portion of the learning curve is in the past. I actually give less estimates and get more jobs, by learning how to estimate and sell jobs better. And how to weed out the tire kickers & price shopper etc.



Dodge K car Wagon for this guy (actually 2 a black one and a grey one). Graduated to a caravan in '05


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Bender said:


> Bloviating. Hmm
> 
> Triple Word Score!



Like there's any comparison. Really. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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