# spraying new int homes



## scottyd2506 (Oct 5, 2007)

You pros have always guided me in the right direction on issues.

I am fairly new to being on my own. I have worked painting new construction for years, we used to do more stain/clear coat jobs back in the late 90's but today it's 90%+ paint in new homes.
we always sprayed the interiors trim, rolled walls. take doors to a shop..
we always prime trim up, spakle (caulk also), let dry, sand,, prime again, and spray trim with porter laytex, one or sometimes two coats depending on what GC wants sometimes


or in warm time outside in the dirt on saw horses to spray, take doors in some room to dry.

I have a new titan 440, and a air operated 2 gal pot HVLP....
I have a nice big new garage, but that is un-insulated, unheated.. So I need to work out a way to spray doors at the site/home for now or untill it gets warm.
I am thinking of setting up a plastic tent to spray in garage or a a room...

My question is... how is the best way to do this?
Or most important---how do I vent the overspray out?

.. I don't want to vent paint all over the outside of some brike house or 
down the road..

What kind of duct system would you use?,
what fans, or filters?

I guess the main question is about venting systems, and what you use?

Thanks
scotty


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Get a pivot-pro door racking system and spray them with your HVLP. There shouldnt be much overspray with HVLP. If you are concerned, get some Zipwalls to set up around your spray area and wear your respirator.


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## Rossiter Painting (Jan 31, 2008)

When ever I'm doing a new construction. I usually spray my doors on dummy hinges as I spray all of the trim. That way I just get it done in one shot. And ware a really good mask. Of course that depends on what works for you. If I were going to spray anything in a shop. With my last setup we had two big fans inside a OSB box about 6 feet wide attached to the wall and then a long hole in front with what ever kind of filters you want to use to cover the hole. We used furnace filters.


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

I opened a shop several years ago, hoping to take trim paks there and do them. Problem was delivery/transportation, builders didn't want to let the materials off site and hardware being lost was also their concern.

If something is lost, it's on me, but if it simply isn't there, it's still on me, so I gave up on that idea.


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## thepainterr4you (Feb 8, 2008)

*hinges*

love the bummy hinge idea


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I like these
http://www.hingemag.com/


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Do them in one room of the house... then flat it. fan in window.
airless is much faster.. try FF tip.


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

Tmrrptr said:


> Do them in one room of the house... then flat it. fan in window.
> airless is much faster.. try FF tip.




Now I'm gonna sound stupid, by what is FF tip?

Thanks


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Wing 54 said:


> Now I'm gonna sound stupid, by what is FF tip?
> 
> Thanks


fine finish


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> fine finish






OOPs, put brain in gear and disengage fingers.

LOL


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

RC Painting said:


> I like these
> http://www.hingemag.com/


Cool! I'm gonna try some of them puppies..........

I mean, do they really work?



Casey


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

Okay, set up homemade spraybooth in my shop today to spray cabinet doors and then 20 doors from new construction I just finished. 

Got ready to go with Titan 440 sprayer and Grayco 413 tip and then it hit.

I've sprayed many, many gallons and no problems. Was gonna use Zinser oil to prime cabinets and wouldn't even begin to flow through this tip. I called Sherwin Williams rep earlier and he told me the tip had to go in the orange guard so I was following his directions. Had always used 515 or 517 tip before so plenty of flow. 

Question is I turned pressure all the way up and couldn't get product to flow. Do I need to thin it way down or is tip the problem?


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Cover Stain?? 440 will not pump it UNLESS it is paddled really well. It tends to get thick on the bottom. Try a bigger tip- 517 and go out and buy panty hose and insert the rock catcher into it. This will filter your paint the best.


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

Also amazing what happens when you read the can to. Zinser recomended 517 tip only so used it, turned pressure down, thinned and held away. Worked pretty good. Tommorow with top coat, owner wants latex so gonna change filter in gun and thin down and try again. 

What have I got to loose. Cuz with 517 tip got lot of overspray.


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## 3INCHCORONA (Mar 19, 2009)

are you guys talking about spraying trim. cover stain is great to spray. i use it daily in a Graco MX 490. TIPS 108 212 410 never had any issues only the odd clog. sprays very far on low settings.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Wing 54 said:


> Also amazing what happens when you read the can to. Zinser recomended 517 tip only so used it, turned pressure down, thinned and held away. Worked pretty good. Tommorow with top coat, owner wants latex so gonna change filter in gun and thin down and try again.
> 
> What have I got to loose. Cuz with 517 tip got lot of overspray.


This is one area that I would DEFINITELY ignore the instructions on the can.

I use a 2-10, 3-10, 4 or 5-10 for doors.

I don't even use a 5-17 on ceilings.

(edit) unless it's new drywall and the house is gutted, then I use a 6-17


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

premierpainter said:


> Cover Stain?? 440 will not pump it UNLESS it is paddled really well. It tends to get thick on the bottom. Try a bigger tip- 517 and go out and buy panty hose and insert the rock catcher into it. This will filter your paint the best.


I use a 440i and a 3-10 for coverstain all the time. I recently did it with oil coverstain.

It's best to reduce the oil coverstain with thinner any way. It flows out nicer, quicker and easier to sand, any runs are smaller and less gooey, generally all around works best with some thinner in it.

I cant tell you how much becuase I always just stir it in till "it looks right".

Probably around 8% is good.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I use a 440i and a 3-10 for coverstain all the time. I recently did it with oil coverstain.
> 
> It's best to reduce the oil coverstain with thinner any way. It flows out nicer, quicker and easier to sand, any runs are smaller and less gooey, generally all around works best with some thinner in it.
> 
> ...


I use the 440i with 209 and 210 often with CS but shoot straight most often. One thing I noticed thats common with Cover Stain oil is how thick the bottom of the can is even just off the shaker. I ask them to shake it twice.

Are you using NAPTHA for reduction or fine spirits?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Are you using NAPTHA for reduction or fine spirits?


Just regular paint thinner. Coverstain is plenty hot as it is.

I spray the Zinsser acrylic 123 without reduction. I would like a lesser viscosity, but with the acrylic primer I don't want to risk altering the formulation as it already doesn't have a lot stain sealing capacity.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I don't even use a 5-17 on ceilings.


Why not? 

517 is a standard for ceilings or walls, primer or finish with back roll. Get the product to the board.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Why not?
> 
> 517 is a standard for ceilings or walls, primer or finish with back roll. Get the product to the board.


He must not like the white rain falling. 

515 for me. Move material. NEPS you would be proud, I have sprayed more so far this year than the previous 2 combined. The times are a changing.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> He must not like the white rain falling.
> 
> 515 for me. Move material. NEPS you would be proud, I have sprayed more so far this year than the previous 2 combined. The times are a changing.


Nice ....Get a spray pole yet?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Nice ....Get a spray pole yet?


No. I borrowed one from another painter a couple of years ago and can see how it would be pretty handy. I could have used one last week...


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Why not?
> 
> 517 is a standard for ceilings or walls, primer or finish with back roll. Get the product to the board.


Did you read where I said on new sheetrock in an empty house I use a 6-17? In really large areas, I am not opposed to using a 7-21 and have many times in the past.

Again this is a situation where it helps to clarify the job type.

A lot of the jobs we have done for the last two years have been small to medium size craftsmans and bungalows.

We have done many of them with the house occupied which means we only are doing a few rooms at a time, then when finished, we swap places with the residents and they live in the finished portion while we paint the portion they were living in.

The difference in time of spraying out a couple small to medium ceilings between a 5-17 and a 5-15, is very negligible. At tops one minute per room. Even with the 5-15 it still only takes 2-3 minutes to spray the ceiling out. Maybe 5 for a large living room.

The difference in overspray and pressure that can rip though masking or disturb plastic is fairly significant however.

Especially when we are in the homes of people requesting low and no voc solutions, the less overspray the better. Even dry overspray dust. I like to keep the jobs as clean as possible. 

There really is no advantage at all in taking a "get the product to the wall" approach in a confined, and occupied space. However, I do feel there are disadvantages. 

By the way, I use a spray pole with an angled adapter, even in the small rooms, it helps to reach out over any couches, or other furniture that is formed into an island in the center of the room.

In any case. 5-17 is WAY WAY WAY to big for trim. Which was really my point. The information regarding tip sizes on those cans is absurd and should be avoided like the plague.

Unless of course you want to SELL A LOT OF PAINT. Then you might be motivated to print something like that on your cans! 

With a 5-17 the trim could represent half or LESS of the actual surface areas that got painted. Especially if one was spraying with the gun "held away" like Wing was referring to. There would be more paint on the wall, and on the masking than there would be on the trim.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You spray in occupied homes???????


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Did you read where I said on new sheetrock in an empty house I use a 6-17? In really large areas, I am not opposed to using a 7-21 and have many times in the past.
> 
> Again this is a situation where it helps to clarify the job type.
> 
> .


 
Hey Mr Attitude .....Did you read the title of the thread?

A 7-21 .....what are you spraying ....Tar?

I am starting to wonder if there is a funny connection between LC and JP.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> You spray in occupied homes???????


Spray ceilings in occupied homes all the time. Most of my customers don't want to "move totally out" to have us spray. Obviously we don't spray with them in the room, they have to go to an area we're not spraying and or leave while we're spraying if it's the whole house. 515 here usually for ceilings for the same reasons mentioned in another post. If it's unoccupied, new, then I might go to the 517 or even a bit bigger depending on whatever. 

Most trim and doors use HVLP (4 stage) if there's no where to get them to a place in an occupied house to do them (unfinished basement or garage). If airless is used then a FF tip usually gets it done.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

I picked up one of these two falls ago. I just shot a whole new house with it, 9 foot ceilings are easier because you can angle the gun so you are not standing right under your overspray, then pop the gun out to shot the walls without having to take off a tip extension. Even shot the vaulted living room ceiling from the floor. that sure was nice. only downside is with the gun mounted up there you get a little kick back which can result in a thicker starting spot on your spray path. You can plan it out and angle the gun slightly so the kickback gets your pattern started and avoid this but it takes a little figuring. Overall, great tool.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Hey Mr Attitude .....Did you read the title of the thread?


Did you read this? This was the post I was responding too when I said I don't even use a 5-17 for ceilings.



Wing 54 said:


> Okay, set up homemade spraybooth in my shop today to spray cabinet doors and then 20 doors from new construction I just finished.


That preceded Wing's next post about using a 5-17 to shoot oil coverstain on trim.



NEPS.US said:


> You spray in occupied homes???????


Yes. 



NEPS.US said:


> A 7-21 .....what are you spraying ....Tar?


PVA and flat finish.



NEPS.US said:


> I am starting to wonder if there is a funny connection between LC and JP.


Any one that goes to my blog, will clearly see the difference between mine and LC's writing style.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

Tmrrptr said:


> Do them in one room of the house... then flat it. fan in window.
> airless is much faster.. try FF tip.


I'm down with this. I used a customer's garage and just ran a huge drop on one wall with some screws into it at the top, and tape at the bottom. Dropped out the floor, put plastic on the ceiling, and I was good to go. You can align the doors on a diagonal, domino-like pattern and manage to spray both sides too. The enamel is pretty heavy and with a FF tip, the overspray is always minimal. Doors turned out beautiful, with zero overspray on anything except the drops. The cust. had no idea I even used the garage!

good luck


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

tsunamicontract said:


> I picked up one of these two falls ago. I just shot a whole new house with it, 9 foot ceilings are easier because you can angle the gun so you are not standing right under your overspray, then pop the gun out to shot the walls without having to take off a tip extension. Even shot the vaulted living room ceiling from the floor. that sure was nice. only downside is with the gun mounted up there you get a little kick back which can result in a thicker starting spot on your spray path. You can plan it out and angle the gun slightly so the kickback gets your pattern started and avoid this but it takes a little figuring. Overall, great tool.


that's the same gadget the painter on "Holmes on Homes" uses. He sprays the trim and everything with it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Did you read this? This was the post I was responding too when I said I don't even use a 5-17 for ceilings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Did you confuse yourself? You are posting as LC this time. Read that last sentence again.

Spraying in a occupied home is ridiculous. This isnt a debate like you talked in other threads about different applications for different material in different locations of the country. Spraying in a occupied home is ridiculous. Period.

Do you own a ventilation system? Exhaust system? Do you use a 721 on these occupied homes? 

How much coverstain would you shoot through that 721? Coverstain would start to blow that thing out after 5 gallons. You might as well use a garden hose. 

It is funny that a guy with a ego big enough to name himself "*LAST CRAFTSMAN*" would spray the interior of an occupied home. You really went off the reservation this week LC. First starting a thread defending JP and now this. I am willing to make a guess that you are JP's one and only employee. Right?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Did you confuse yourself? You are posting as LC this time. Read that last sentence again.



:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Sweet sig ....  
You used to be a sensible guy when I wrote that. You must be high this week from swimming in cover stain from that 721. So, do you pick up JP's coffee in the morning?


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

> It is funny that a guy with a ego big enough to name himself "*LAST CRAFTSMAN*" would spray the interior of an occupied home.


I want to know what the problem is of spraying a never painted popcorn ceiling in a occupied home. That's twice this "occupied" thing as come up now. Do you mean occupied as in people living there but not in the spraying area or what here?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

deach said:


> I want to know what the problem is of spraying a never painted popcorn ceiling in a occupied home. That's twice this "occupied" thing as come up now. Do you mean occupied as in people living there but not in the spraying area or what here?


If I brought a sprayer into an occupied home in the areas I work? I wouldn't even gt it in the door before I was sent packing.... There is no reason to spray while people are living in a home, its just stupid! 

If you are doing it for times issues then you are not bidding the job correctly...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK

I think you are onto something here. Lately from all the reading I have been doing here there are 3 conclusions I am close to accepting.

There are too many people in this industry who:

1. dont know how to estimate and sell
2. don't really know how to paint
3. really really want to believe there is a magic bullet that will save them from #1 and #2.

#1 is no big surprise but does contribute to alot of the nonsense we see on this forum.

#2 has been quite the phenomenon lately. Holy crap, exterior painting is the easiest thing my company does. Its like summer vacation. And there are guys out there with not the first clue of how to do it properly.

#3 Rauhl Jackson or whatever his name is feeds on this.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. If I ever tried to roll a popcorn ceiling in a customers home I'd be sent packing as you put it "it's just stupid"..... this has nothing to do with time. My customers call me because they know I'm smart enough not to roll acoustic and smart enough to take the proper precautions with their most prized possession to not mess it all up. I'm not knocking however you do it or calling your methods stupid, a little courtesy here ok?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You company is based off a 1984 movie ......enuf said


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. If I ever tried to roll a popcorn ceiling in a customers home I'd be sent packing as you put it "it's just stupid"..... this has nothing to do with time. My customers call me because they know I'm smart enough not to roll acoustic and smart enough to take the proper precautions with their most prized possession to not mess it all up. I'm not knocking however you do it or calling your methods stupid, a little courtesy here ok? 

I know how to paint. I know how to price for my area. I know when to roll, brush, use hvlp, or airless. Never once have I had a complaint about my ceilings I've sprayed... I've been called in twice to spray cause the yahoo's before me came in and tried to roll it and botched the texture all up not to mention crap all over the place.....Perhaps people here are different, I don't know I've never painted in Vermont.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> You company is based off a 1984 movie ......enuf said



LOLOL ok at least that's funny I'll give ya that one. Yep the theme came from that. I like the pic gives me a marketing idea. Thanks......


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> If I brought a sprayer into an occupied home in the areas I work? I wouldn't even gt it in the door before I was sent packing.... There is no reason to spray while people are living in a home, its just stupid!


That's what people said about using sprayers at all when sprayers were first invented.

I spray in occupied homes ALL the time, and works out excellently.

Have you ever even used a 3-10, or a 2-10 tip?

I can practically cut in with the thing. There are even 8 orifice tips, and I don't even need to go down that far.

-------------

For ceilings I usually use a 5-15.

Have fun cutting and rolling your popcorn ceilings in an "occupied" home.

Have fun brushing out a full set of kitchen cabinets in an "occupied" home.

-------------

Get this: I recently sprayed several doors in a VERY small hallway with wallpaper WHILE the doors were hung. They turned out beautifully And yes there were people living in the house.

-------------

You are making the mistake of assuming that because you are not familiar with a technique, it can't be done.

------------

What difference does it make that the home is "occupied". The rooms I am painting in aren't occupied.

-----------

But I do even spray in occupied rooms sometimes. That is why God invented VISQUEEN. 

And by occupied I don't mean that they are sitting in the living room watching TV while I am spraying the trim.

I just mean they live at the residence. More often than not, they are at work.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> That's what people said about using sprayers at all when sprayers were first invented.
> 
> I spray in occupied homes ALL the time, and works out excellently.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
:yes::yes::yes::yes:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> You must be high this week from swimming in cover stain from that 721.


Did you read this post I made earlier in the thread?



Last Craftsman said:


> I use a 440i and a 3-10 for coverstain all the time. I recently did it with oil coverstain.


BTW. You asked "Do you use a 721 on these occupied homes? "

Earlier in the thread you were questioning why I said I don't even use a 5-17 for ceilings.

Now if I don't even use a 5-17 for ceilings in a certain environment? Why would I use a 7-21?

Besides I haven't used a 7-21 in while, and since I am never planning on doing commercial again, I probably never will.

I was making a point that I understand the "get the product to the board" concept that you were referring to, and I have used REALLY huge tips before.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Did you read this post I made earlier in the thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think he's arguing for the sake of arguing. Perhaps his spraying experience is limited to only vacant places. I don't know. I for one can appreciate your attitude, and understand the uses of the various tips, as apparently you do also.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

deach said:


> I think he's arguing for the sake of arguing. Perhaps his spraying experience is limited to only vacant places. I don't know. I for one can appreciate your attitude, and understand the uses of the various tips, as apparently you do also.


Yes you are right. I only spray vacant places. 

Looking at the pics on your site it doesnt suprise me that you spray occupied homes. Your "POWER" washing pics look like you are shooting 2800 psi 6 inches away from the substrate. Like spraying, inexperience and lack of knowledge give this industry a bad name. 

Do your "employees" have green cards?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> You are making the mistake of assuming that because you are not familiar with a technique, it can't be done.
> 
> .


 
Wrong. Taking shortcuts is not a technique.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Um don't have any 2800 psi washers, smallest I have is a 3500 but, I use tips (again do you know how to change them) to vary my pressure. Depending on the substrate, yes we spray 6 inches away, no I don't use hi pressure on vinyl, Yes I use my 3500 psi washer on vinyl, Yes I use a tip that reduces that pressure to about 100 psi, no I"m not gonna argue with you any more. 

Where's your website? I'm pretty sure I was painting before you were either born or still in diapers. None of my people need green cards, and honestly if I ever caught them in forums approaching anyone with the comments you have, they'd be jobless so, they also have manners which is something you apparently do not. I thought this was a professional forum. Let's keep it that way....

Heck with you, you know what? you're not worth the time. Most of the "people" that work for me are my kids or my wives kids. If that's your "little website" I looked at no wonder you can mouth me. Get your name on this forum so people reading will know who you are. They will know the owner of that company came here and showed his ass. 

I am proud enough of my company and my people to show my website. I will conduct myself in these forums in a manner that when customers come here (and you'd be amazed they do)....they'll know how I conduct myself in both public and private. 

Man up bud, you and I are finished here. You just go right on, you're the one making a fool of himself not me.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

daArch said:


> BTW, Chris, you said you were stirin the pot. You need lessons on how to stir up trouble :thumbup:





RCP said:


> I was afraid it would start the old "spray vs roll" debate!


Got my lesson!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Chris

There are no topics anymore that dont spiral into a mess. That is because there are so many "innovators" right now trying to come off as genius but really just finding the fastest way to cut every corner possible to make low numbers work. The craft of painting could not be more of a mud puddle on this forum. Just a theory.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

RCP Nice iWeb site!!


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Wrong. Taking shortcuts is not a technique.


Lookit dude. You really are speaking without knowledge here.

It is not a "shortcut". It is a _procedure._

And it works EXTREMELY WELL.

I recently matched a retrofit of several new exterior double french doors to the existing paint in a high end home. The existing paint had been sprayed with OIL. And I matched it with ACRYLIC.

Incidently HO's were VERY sensitive to dust and noxious odors.

The wife was home all day. And she even prepared food in the kitchen which was attached to the living room as one space. 

We had to tent off every single set of doors and I sprayed the casings and the doors IN PLACE, totally bypassing the strategic issue of removing the doors during a very windy, rainy week. Almost every set was directly facing the weather. 

The GC who recommended us did not want to take the doors off. 

And even if we had taken the doors off, the casings would need to have been matched to the adjacent trim and crown molding. Good luck doing that without spraying it.

And when I say matched, I mean the paint flowed and leveled IDENTICALLY to the existing oil finish in the rest of the room/house.

They turned out BEAUTIFUL. The only drawback was some of the ceiling paint came off when we removed the door "tents" even though we used low tack blue tape. The ceilings were ultra flat however, and the HO's had the existing paint and the spots touched up beautifully. 

---------

I could understand where some of the confusion is coming from, I almost NEVER use oil coverstain at ALL any more, certainly not in an occupied house.

I recently was forced to use it because the entire kitchen was WAY to greasy to risk using an acrylic. 

In that one instance, the owner did not stay at home that evening.

Even with a box fan sucking air out of the kitchen, the primer still smelled a lot the next morning. 

---------


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

deach, they are clapboards not sideboards. And not sure I would have a pic of a guy "working" in a "wifebeater" on my website. Other than that, nice site. Might want to think about your pictures before you click the button though. Those new biljax lifts are great rnt they. The best part about them is everyone driving by looks. People on ladders, no big deal. People using bright orange lift, heads are turning. I want to try out one of those new ones that you can drive around but are light enough to trailer behind an SUV. Do you like the boom? have you tried the articulated? I used the artic. and loved it but curious how the useabilty of the boom lift compares.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

deach said:


> I think he's arguing for the sake of arguing.


not neps. :whistling2::no:


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Love the lift, we use it pretty often. I haven't had a need for the articulated yet. Ya know, I didn't even think about that pic of Jake on the roof in his "beater" (actually never heard it called that till several years ago). If you went two houses down there was someone painting shirtless so I guess that day we didn't think about it. I'm in the process of totally revamping the website though so no biggie. Thanks for mentioning it. I actually had that saying clapboards but changed it for some reason. (one of my original people helping me do it said something I think)....anyway. I appreciate our input on the site, new things in the works and new pics. Thanks.
Deach


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That is because there are so many "innovators" right now trying to come off as genius but really just finding the fastest way to cut every corner possible to make low numbers work.


I sincerely hope you are not referring to me Vermontpainter.

Incidently, I am not trying to "come off as genius". NEPS insists spraying inside an occupied home can't be done.

Well, I hate to shatter people's cemented in, triple welded paradigms, because in point of fact it most certainly CAN be done.

I do it all the time, and I have BEEN doing it for over a decade.

When I first started painting I worked for a painter who brushed out the ENTIRE exterior of his homes. This is before I started spraying. SO I happily brushed those homes when I was working for him. His approach and his ideology was going the way of the Dodo. But he was absolutely SURE that he was right.

The dude had the same attitude about spraying exteriors that NEPS and MAK-DECO have about spraying in an occupied home. 

"It's just not the way it's done". "It's never been done that way". "Can't start now"

People get so cemented in to the same way they have been doing sh*t for the last 25 years that they can't even IMAGINE any other way of doing things.

If defending procedures that I have been succeeding at for over a decade against the *attacks* of people who can't conceptualize them makes me an "innovator", and a"Genius" then then so be it. 

I am Albert F'ing Einstein.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

LC

The things you describe, well, lets just say they dont match with the name you have chosen.

MAK and NEPS arent saying it can't be done. They are saying it would not be advisable, and could be pretty hack. FYI, it is possible to do brush work with oil enamels that look pretty much sprayed. I have guys who do it all the time, matching up to cabinet shop sprayed stuff onsite, integrated faceframes, crowns and base on cabinets. No problem. That is more the craft of painting than knowing what tip makes the least mess. 

You might consider that just because you have been doing things a certain way for a decade, doesnt make it right. By the way, I bet all that fan exhausting you do gets you a fair amount of free exterior work.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

what really gets my goat is that some times these corner cutters get away with it. I watched these people paint a house on one of the major corners in town as follows:
day1- show up in a bunch of random, unmarked vehicles. throw down traps, give her he!! with the power washer.
day2-prime entire home with coverstain the day after power washing.
skip a day for rain
day 3- paint home in light drizzle/mist
day 4- finish painting and trimming home in light drizzle/mist with heavier rain predicted later. 

the house still looks great 2 years later.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

I've sprayed for over 15 years inside on ceilings and trim (doors included) applications when it was either spec'd for spraying or the situation called for it. I'm not gonna argue about it any more. There is no "roll vs spray" debate. There is a time for each. A true craftsman knows all the tools of his trade and how to use them. A sprayer is just another tool in the professional painters arsenal to help him achieve the best possible finish for the task at hand. Spraying is in no way innovative. If you don't want to spray, fine. If you want to haul doors somewhere and spray them fine. If you want to tell a customer that wants the doors sprayed on premises you won't do that, fine. If you want to cut and roll a popcorn ceiling (never been painted before), fine. This has become just pointless. You have no right to call me a short cutter, or anything else. PERIOD......Everyone has different levels of technology they keep up with in their trades to give the customer the best possible job. I keep up with mine and know there's more than a brush and roller required to paint.

I have cut and rolled my share of non popcorn ceilings, which I've done since 1974. Does that mean I am doing it wrong?? Spraying didn't happen (at least around here) till the mid 80s and my boss at the time was one that refused to get one. We did entire exteriors by brush. Again this has just gotten pointless. You guys do it your way. I'll do it mine. The fact we are different doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

deach, while im at it, might not want to have pics of people spraying out stuff with no masks on. Not saying I always wear mine, but for the website it might not be a bad idea. 

What did you spray those down spouts with? I try and not get involved with downspout painting.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Hey LC, how in the F*ck did I get involved in this cluster?!?


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> what really gets my goat is that some times these corner cutters get away with it. I watched these people paint a house on one of the major corners in town as follows:
> day1- show up in a bunch of random, unmarked vehicles. throw down traps, give her he!! with the power washer.
> day2-prime entire home with coverstain the day after power washing.
> skip a day for rain
> ...


Not sure painting in the rain is a good idea though.....


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last week I killed a mosquito with a hand grenade. It got the job done so it must be the right tool.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> deach, while im at it, might not want to have pics of people spraying out stuff with no masks on. Not saying I always wear mine, but for the website it might not be a bad idea.
> 
> What did you spray those down spouts with? I try and not get involved with downspout painting.



In that pic I was using HVLP. Sometimes it's a FF in an airless depending on how many. We have to do them if we do the guttering and soffits. I am one of the few in the area that will do them like that. On Cedar houses if the corner boards are a "trim" color then every one else tries to convince the customer that the down spouts have to go the same. I make them match the guttering and soffit if the customer requests it, and don't try to change their mind. I flat out ask them if they'd rather us brush or spray them. I've yet to have one request a brush. 
Your the first one that's said anything about the masks. I'll be honest I'm probably the worst at wearing them at my age (outside)..Inside I have a little different attitude about it ...


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Last week I killed a mosquito with a hand grenade. It got the job done so it must be the right tool.



Ya know what?? I believe you!!!!!!!!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

lol no I didn't mean what equip, what paint/primer did you use?


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> lol no I didn't mean what equip, what paint/primer did you use?


LOL ok....I think that job was superpaint, if I recall. Been last spring. If it wasn't superpaint it was BM moreguard. a good cleaning and I've had it last as long as anything else. That was an aluminium sided home, so we did the top in white (guttering down spouts and soffit) and the body almost a steel gray if I remember. (lighter steel gray) I did two coats of finish on them, they were in good shape. (lighter coats don't load it on) .....


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> LC
> 
> The things you describe, well, lets just say they dont match with the name you have chosen.


Says YOU.

You should look up the definition of subjective. Then apply it this comment you made. 

Actually it's circular was well. Because you decreed what the definition of a "craftsman is", then used your OWN definition of a craftsman as proof that my methods do not fall under the category of a craftsman.

Besides, the name is a triple entendre. It mostly refers to a disappearing form of vintage architecture which I have an affinity for. The 3rd meaning is a reference to the 'stone the builders rejected.'



vermontpainter said:


> MAK and NEPS arent saying it can't be done. They are saying it would not be advisable, and could be pretty hack.


Advisable according to what litmus? Why do NEPS and MAK-DECO get to be the barometer of a procedure they have zero knowledge of?

Like I said, they aren't capable of conceptualizing how it could be done in a professional manner. This is in no way *proof* that it is not professional.

There were people that couldn't conceptualize airplanes either. If it was up them, airplanes would never have been invented. 



vermontpainter said:


> FYI, it is possible to do brush work with oil enamels that look pretty much sprayed.


Oh...For _MY_ information? I see. Thanks for informing me, I was completely unaware of this.

Read post #58 that I made on 

THIS THREAD

And then tell me I don't know about brushing oil to make it look sprayed.

Go ahead. Read it. I double dog dare ya'. 



vermontpainter said:


> I have guys who do it all the time, matching up to cabinet shop sprayed stuff onsite, integrated faceframes, crowns and base on cabinets. No problem. That is more the craft of painting than knowing what tip makes the least mess.


Well the job happened to be SPEC'D for acrylic, But what the hell. 

And did you happen to read the part where I said the HO's were extremely sensitive to dust and "noxious odors"?

Oh wait a minute. Now I remember. That's why the GC called us. Because we specialize in low and no voc products, AND because we know how to spray in an occupied home.

I don't know anything about being a craftsman, I only know about spray tips.



vermontpainter said:


> You might consider that just because you have been doing things a certain way for a decade, doesnt make it right.


That is an interesting way of looking at it. I seem to recall recently telling NEPS and MAK-DECO the very same thing as a *response* to them criticizing my methods based on their own "set in their ways" way of doing things.



vermontpainter said:


> By the way, I bet all that fan exhausting you do gets you a fair amount of free exterior work.


Did you just skip over the part where I said this, it IMMEDIATELY preceded the sentence you are referring to:



Last Craftsman said:


> I almost NEVER use oil coverstain at ALL any more, certainly not in an occupied house.
> 
> I recently was forced to use it because the entire kitchen was WAY to greasy to risk using an acrylic.
> 
> In that one instance, the owner did not stay at home that evening.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

and to think, scott used to be so good at making friends . . .


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok LC, because of your persistence and insistence on conceptualizing and innovation, here is my latest innovation. I think you, er Ralph, will get a kick out of this little gem, and you are probably already doing it or at least have thought about it. I was going to wait and debut this in one of my magazine articles, but you have shared such valuable, forward thinking info, that I decided to put it here, as it is a perfect prep complement to your awesome sounding finish techniques. 

Well we all know the importance of clean surfaces as part of the prep process. Last fall at the end of exterior season I had one of those lightbulb moments - obviously you know the type, where you see your craft with a clarity that no one else on the planet could ever comprehend. Its a lonely road. Anyways, and I will try to put this in language that you non-exceptional talents can understand, we pressure wash to clean the outsides of residential homes, why not the inside? The first one we tried, we had to do some shifting on the fly, like figuring out the pitch of the floors and drilling small weep holes in the low spots to get the water to the basement where would could then sump pump it out the basement windows into our own designed containment and transport tanks. Get this, we then take that water back to our shop, boil and strain it and reuse it on the next wash. Its an eco practice, it turns out!! Talk about 2 birds one stone! And, it is really not that big of a deal to drape plastic over peoples stuff in the basement. If they use it for storage, we protect their stuff, and other stuff like their furnaces, hot water heaters and water pumps are usually pretty dusty anyways and I consider it a free rinse and I tell them so: this ones on the house lol. 
___________________________

I dont mind letting this cat out of the bag now as we have it SO dialed in and all of our homeowners and builders sent us Christmas cards and gifts thanking us for the most BEAUTIFUL and FLAWLESS interior house prep/clean anyone in the US has ever seen. I am proud to be the pioneer in this field. We were recently called to go to the State House here in Vermont to execute this treatment on the marble columns, interior plaster as well as the Greek Revival trim scheme inside the historic building. Oh yeah, and this is the best part, after doing 6 kitchen cabinet jobs where we would degloss and prep with our pressure washer, Tauntons did an online piece about our innovation and that is how we got the state house job, which in turn has booked us for the summer in historic restoration of trim using water.
____________________________

I know this sounds so counterintuitive and you regular painters are not going to be able to wrap your minds around it, with the possible exception of you (LC) and Jack Ralph (LC), because you are the only other forward thinking hacks here. When I told NEPS what I was doing with my pressure washer he was all like oh it'll never work what will you do with the water. Well I told him how we would drill holes and get it to the basement and he was all like what if there are no windows in the basements of these historic buildings and I was all like well we will use underground utility boring technology to get our water into the underground watertable, that way we won't even have to transport it and he was all like well that is not legal the epa will be all over you.
________________________________

At this point I felt like you LC. How can something be illegal or improper or inadvisable if no one has ever thought of doing it before? Especially if its my idea, my ideas are great! Airplanes are not illegal, and neither is direct deposit of interior wash water into underground watertable and aquafer. Where do you think septic water ends up? lolol It doesnt matter if the wash was done with a pressure washer or not. Besides, by the time enough people complain and get it to pass the state legislature to make it into a law, I will have done SO MUCH of this and made so much BANK that I will be long gone floating around on a sail boat on the lake smoking a big fat CIGAR laughing at all you hacks who didnt think it was possible. 

____________________________________

By the way, NEPS was all like well if you did this you would not be able to use a gas powered pressure washer inside peoples houses and I was like oh yeah you wanna make a mother freakin bet? Alls we do is send them to the side of the house we are not washing in and we open the windows. If they dont like it they are free to get a respirator or leave their home, no one is stopping them. We have had ONE complaint, this old lady complained that her drapes smelled like guess and I said well we had to point the exhaust out the window and you should have removed your drapes. She agreed. s
_______________________________________

Oh, one last thing, we are able to deliver this innovation at such a ridiculous low price that no one can even begin to compete with us on prep, either by machine or manually. I am the innovator around here LC/JP, yah you heard, thats me - numero uno ahead of the curve once again! :yes:
_______________________________________
I know this is going to cause some debate here because guys are always jealous of things they didnt think of first, but for all you guys who are so inclined, I am going to use LC's defense. If you have no experience with this technique, then you have no right to criticize it. So those are the rules, I can write and write and write about this innovation and you cant disagree, k? kewl

SAYS ME!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Why go to all that trouble hauling a pressure washer around? 

We just stole a hose from the fire department and hooked it up to the hydrant. 

We have fun spraying each other as we clean the inside of the customers home. 

Reminds us of the times we spent in the joint.

Miss the gas fumes though!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Scott, you are ahead of your time! You are truly a visionary! Now please tell me, what would be going rate for such a service? Would you charge by the sguare foot or gallon? If I charged by the hour would I include the time spent waiting for the water to drain? Or would time and material be better, I could markup the water!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RC

I dont want to give it all away here, but in general I charge around $.25/100psi. There is a bit more info on the blog, but this gives you the basic idea. I then upsell the wastewater recapture/transport/treatment. If they want the water returned, that is an extra as well. 

As these guys have been saying, the true craft of the painter is to look at all the available tools in the arsenal and choose the best one for the job. "Best" is a relative term. To some, it means which one will make money the fastest, to others it means which one will produce the most desirable result. And somewhere in between, most of us try to eke out a living.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> and to think, scott used to be so good at making friends . . .


Hey Aaron

Back out of hibernation I see. How was the winter?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Well Mr Scott, it was just fine. I am a manager at the local ski hill during the winter. I let the lowballers fight each-other to the death (I actually had my paint store call me telling me that the painter he wanted to win this bid lost to a guy that would "do it for free") during the slow months. Starting to get back into the swing of things here, did the upstairs of a nc home already, made a couple bucks, hopefully going back to do the basement. 

But back to your indoor powerwashing. I actually have been using my airless sprayer with water and my 721 cover stain tip to wash walls
that way i can mix the soap right in to what I am spraying. I also can keep better track of how much water I use exactly so I know how much stays with the house. Its what you leave behind that you get to charge for ya know. Just like paint, you don't charge for the solvents that evaporate out, you charge for the coating left behind. It is quite a bit slower than using a 3500 psi washer but I have no gas fumes in peoples homes. And I already had the sprayer so I did not need to invest in new equipment.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Sounds a heck of a lot more fun than competing with lowballers! Nice to see you back, Aaron.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Haha yah I build jumps for a living in the winter, how great is that? Then I get to use them and watch people use them. Its a rough life.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Haha yah I build jumps for a living in the winter, how great is that? Then I get to use them and watch people use them. Its a rough life.


That sounds perfect. Fun all winter and then shift gears in spring with your paint biz ready to go! Guys here are going to hate you!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Yah, I can take it though. I bid on probably $30,000 of work this winter, just didn't get any of it because everyone was scraping tooth and nail for it and I continued to bid at my normal rates.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

This thread:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok LC, because of your persistence and insistence on conceptualizing and innovation, here is my latest innovation. I think you, er Ralph, will get a kick out of this little gem,



:laughing: :lol: :icon_lol: :tt2:

Not you TOO??

LOL!









Anyone who wants to witness the awesome power of NEP's and Vermont painter's super-sluething abilities.

Go back in this thread and Read posts: 

#26
#29 (Make sure to read the last comment I made here) :brows:
#32
#33

Happy LOL'ing.

No one can get anything past you Vermont painter. You weren't born yesterday.

BTW. Sweet pressure washing post. Totally put my post to shame!


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

deach said:


> I want to know what the problem is of spraying a never painted popcorn ceiling in a occupied home. That's twice this "occupied" thing as come up now. Do you mean occupied as in people living there but not in the spraying area or what here?


Question never answered by the "great one's" here a paint talk. Seems if anyone dis agrees with the "great ones" they gang up on you and make personal attacks on your web sights or employees are what ever they can come up with, then they blame all the childish bull **** that goes on here on other people. 

Het "great one's" here's a tip if you dont like the poster dont respond to the post.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

deach said:


> Um don't have any 2800 psi washers, smallest I have is a 3500 but, I use tips (again do you know how to change them) to vary my pressure. Depending on the substrate, yes we spray 6 inches away, no I don't use hi pressure on vinyl, Yes I use my 3500 psi washer on vinyl, Yes I use a tip that reduces that pressure to about 100 psi, no I"m not gonna argue with you any more.
> 
> Where's your website? I'm pretty sure I was painting before you were either born or still in diapers. None of my people need green cards, and honestly if I ever caught them in forums approaching anyone with the comments you have, they'd be jobless so, they also have manners which is something you apparently do not. I thought this was a professional forum. Let's keep it that way....
> 
> ...


spoken like a class act:thumbsup:, who is not in the "click" good for you!!!


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Who are the great ones? I don't recognize them as that. It's ok they don't know me well enough to not like me. My website hits just fine, however I'm always looking for ways to improve it. I am proud enough of my business to provide a link to it here. I conduct myself in a manner that should my customers find me here they know what they're getting. I was painting when most of the people here were still in diapers. Their opinions as stated had no n
egatove impact on me or my business. (in fact just the opposite). 

I send customers here all the time from all areas. I can only hope that their attitudes here which obviously reflect on who they really are and their comments reflect to their future/potential customers what they need to know about the business they're gonna hire.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Boy its funny that this thread got 4 pages after it was started in 2008 and not posted to for almost one year...


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> spoken like a class act:thumbsup:, who is not in the "click" good for you!!!


Thanks Dave.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Have fun cutting and rolling your popcorn ceilings in an "occupied" home.
> Have fun brushing out a full set of kitchen cabinets in an "occupied" home.


first we don't have much popcorn here where I am at. To be honest that last few times I can across it I was able to "upsell" removing that crap which what it is.. more more money for me, thanks.. 

As for Kitchen cabinets, if I come across a job like that its usually a repaint of cabinets that have been brushed, so its not an issue of not having brush marks. Also I do consider myself a craftsman and one of those traits would be to get oil or even the newer hybrid WB's to lay off and looked sprayed. I don't need to come into some kitchen and blow and go... I don't treat my jobs like a race.. I don't care for Nascar, sorry.. 

Like Scott mentioned I never said spraying in a occupied home couldn't be done, I said that "my cleints" would give me the boot if I showed up lugging a sprayer in there house... I repsect "my clients" wishes. If I truly felt that spraying inside would be the "only way" then I would plan and sell accordinally.

Now I have go to the paint store and pick some paint so I can go brush and roll it in somesone home, have a good day!


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Why is popcorn crap?? I still get paid to blow it on on occasion. Some people like the way it looks. If that's the look the customer wants isn't that what this is about making them happy? Some customers like wallpaper, some pay me to take it down. That's not up to me to decide, it's not my home, it's theirs. 

Blow and go on the cabinets?? LOLOL.....that's hardly the term I'd use on kitchen cabinets. It probably takes me as long to HVLP spray those as it does you to brush them. Again, this is left up to the customer and priced accordingly. Yes its more to spray. Multiple times have I been given the job because I do spray them even though I was higher. Yes I've brushed them also. Doesn't matter to me. I leave those choices to the customer, explain the benifets and downfalls of both and go from there.

I buy way more paint to brush and roll than to spray. While i realize you quoted someone else in your reply, I felt directed at me also since I share his ideas on these items.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

deach said:


> Why is popcorn crap?? I still get paid to blow it on on occasion. Some people like the way it looks. If that's the look the customer wants isn't that what this is about making them happy? Some customers like wallpaper, some pay me to take it down. That's not up to me to decide, it's not my home, it's theirs.


I don't like popcorn due to removal issues, otherwise, I don't mind it. Well save for the fact that some of the older formulas used asbestos...



I am embarrassed to admit around here some of the things I do for my customers, at their request of course.

:whistling2:


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

LOL don't be, if you won't do it someone else will.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

I read your original post and I am relieved to know that I am not alone here, thank you Greg.
If certain people feel that they cannot have complete control of this place according to _their_ standards, they should start an exclusive site of their own.
I consider myself an important part of the painting industry, and this site, no matter how hard they have tried to alienate me from the trade I have chosen.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> I read your original post and I am relieved to know that I am not alone here, thank you Greg.
> If certain people feel that they cannot have complete control of this place according to _their_ standards, they should start an exclusive site of their own.
> I consider myself an important part of the painting industry, and this site, no matter how hard they have tried to alienate me from the trade I have chosen.


You're welcome and thank you. I've followed some of your trials and tribulations here wise, you and you alone know if you're a "professional" or not. No one here is writing you a check or handing you cash. ( I always prefer cash by the way just makes me feel good ). I haven't posted here all that much well because it seemed it would be a waste of time which I have confirmed. If I see that someone has a honest question and I can be of some help I will answer now to the best of my ability. I believe these forums can be a wonderful thing if people would remember they had to learn, try, usually try again and again, and if we can help someone that is really trying to "do it right" then well that 's ok. Let's help. I believe many on this site are wonderful, competent, professional painters. I think that BBS talk gets the best of some people at times though. Although it's not hard to figure out where websites are and such it's different when you actually link to it here. (and helps rankings too I might add). There I said it I feel better...

Anyway taking a day here messing with a new website program fixing to redo mine totally. (whew am I nuts here or what). Anyway good luck to you...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Forums do often spiral into a whos right whos wrong argument. 

Sounds like there is a substantial and vocal group who endorse the following:

-spraying inside occupied residential homes
-working for cash
-not carrying insurance

Sounds like there are a few who don't. I should be counted among that group, for what its worth.

This post is not directed at any person here in particular. It is a reflection of the fact that I disagree with anyone who might endorse the above business practices. People do come here to learn. Thats the main purpose of this place. If they are reading that the above listed items are generally accepted painting/business practices, then what are we doing to the trade? Don't get me wrong. Spraying is an important discipline. I bet LC can do what he says he can do and do it successfully and effectively. Turn that approach loose in the wrong inexperienced hands, and we all take the rap for it. We don't need a worse public perception right now. Makes it harder for good guys to sell good work. 

I hope we don't hear any more complaining by anyone here about anything that any painter is doing anywhere. It appears that in the paint industry, anything goes. 

No one in this thread could acknowledge that NEPS was offering to help and actually trying to educate Wise, who did seem to have some misgivings about the state of his affairs. Some are too quick to jump on NEPS, calling him a bully without even being willing to listen to his message. Same thing you accuse him of. Not many people here deliver it in warm fuzzy colors all the time. Even MAK, who is one of the nicest guys here, got thrown under the bus by those more interested in winning an argument than really considering the ramifications of that argument. 

It doesnt matter if you work by yourself or have 20 employees. We are all small potatoes, trying to make a living doing something we are good at.

I do believe that everyone involved in an argument like this sleeps well at night, secure in the knowledge that they are doing the right thing, and not particularly concerned with any effects or consequences. 

Again, these are just random thoughts by just another painter trying to make an honest living and support his family. No offense, criticism or argument intended.

Whatever your approach to painting and business, good luck, be safe, support your families and have a great year. If you can do it legally and responsibly in a way that might promote the trade in a postive way, all the better. 

See you around.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

lol.

VP, MAK, & NEPS...truly the Athos, Porthos and Aramis of Paint Talk...

All for one and one for all!

_huzzah!_


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Forums do often spiral into a whos right whos wrong argument.
> 
> Sounds like there is a substantial and vocal group who endorse the following:
> <h2>Disc bullets list:</h2>
> ...


Nice try. First of all. I have insurance, I'm not sure of the requirements in other states but in IL here it is required. I would have to say that 99 out of 100 jobs write a check to me under my company name. I have on occasion been approached by a neighbor to "can you paint this door frame for me before it gets any worse" A quick 50 bucks cash?? you bet I'll take it. 

I have no intention of reliving the spraying debate. Perhaps that's why I get most the popcorn ceiling jobs in this area. (ok guys when they call and flat out ask can you spray my popcorn ceiling)...There's a clue. I guess I could say no, but then why? I've NEVER had a complaint about my spraying in the house. Usually people leave or are at work but occasionally yes they're in a room at the other end of the house, or basement or wherever they want to be. A lot of these folks would NEVER pay to have it removed. (some might I guess but honestly I've never tried to convince them of something like that). 

As for sleeping well at night? You betcha. I work hard, I do the best I can to satisify my clients needs. I don't need to upsell a popcorn removal job to some people in their 70's who barely have the money for the painting. 

I feel alot of professionals are here. And I also feel there's nothing wrong with doing what you believe in, the way you believe it ought to be done. I'm not knocking anyone's way of doing things here, never did. 

Your post while all warm and fuzzy still wreaks of sarcasm. Generally accepted in the painting industry. Hummm....Ok in my industry it is acceptable and in yours it isn't. That's ok though. I totally agree that sprayers should not be placed into inexperienced hands. 

What were the ramifacations of the arguement? That he doesn't have a lot of popcorn up there, and what he does he upsells. That's fine...I have no problem with that. If that's "his way" then that's what he should do. For the record on old popcorn I wouldn't want to remove it with people in the area either. I gotta tell ya, this just baffle's me some of the things here as I'm sure it has my answers to you. It's ok though. 

I too wish everyone well, and a safe and prosperous 2009.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> lol.
> 
> VP, MAK, & NEPS...truly the Athos, Porthos and Aramis of Paint Talk...
> 
> ...


Wise, I'm rolling here over this one. I think it's time to let this dog just die......The inferences here are killing me.....:yes:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Sounds like there is a substantial and vocal group who endorse the following:
> 
> -spraying inside occupied residential homes
> -working for cash
> -not carrying insurance



VermontPainter.

Listen, I am going refrain from doing point by point run down of your posts. Suffice it to say that in my opinion, your arguments are quite prone to bias, fallacies, and various other flaws.

I am not going to highlight them all, unless it is by your request or direct challenge.

The only thing I will say is that I feel this recent post is unfair in that it misrepresents my position on "working for cash" and "not carrying insurance".

You classified people with varying opinions on various topics into one group, then arrived at the conclusion that because they are all in this group, (a group you defined), that they all share the same beliefs on a range topics.

Because I endorse spraying inside occupied homes, you have placed me in a group who's collective philosophy also endorses working for cash, and not carrying insurance.

The only problem with this is that: I DO NOT endorse working for cash, or not carrying insurance.

Not that I feel it is my place to look down upon, or judge people who endorse these things, but I do NOT endorse working for cash, or not carrying insurance, and I am taking this opportunity to clarify any confusion about my stance on these issues that may have occurred as a result of your post.


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## thelodges (Nov 22, 2008)

The only thing which I am going to add to this is please be safe when you use sprayers. As someone who was heavily into commercial work that required mostly spray application I have seen what it has done to good cautious applicators as well as careless applicators.

High quality respirators, excellent filters and new pre-filters. No facial hair to keep a real good seal around your mouth and nose. This stuff builds up in your system, and the particles in the latex paint can end up scarring lung tissue and leading to fibrosis.

I try to stay away from spraying simply for health reasons for myself, but there are obviously many places where spray applications are needed. In fact I have seen alot of spray work that could only be described as done by a craftsman. Regardless of your methods, please protect your health. For a forum that talks alot about overhead and such, I doubt any of us have contemplated a liver transplant as an overhead cost.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

thelodges said:


> The only thing which I am going to add to this is please be safe when you use sprayers.


Good points. Caution should always be exercised. No matter what the task is.

Bear in mind that the actual volume of paint used for commercial spraying is typically 10 times or more for each job.

In addition, commercial work has a much higher need for spray applications than residential, so the task is required much more frequently by comparison.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Good points. Caution should always be exercised. No matter what the task is.
> 
> Bear in mind that the actual volume of paint used for commercial spraying is typically 10 times or more for each job.
> 
> In addition, commercial work has a much higher need for spray applications than residential, so the task is required much more frequently buy comparison.


I totally agree...:yes:


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## thelodges (Nov 22, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Good points. Caution should always be exercised. No matter what the task is.
> 
> Bear in mind that the actual volume of paint used for commercial spraying is typically 10 times or more for each job.
> 
> In addition, commercial work has a much higher need for spray applications than residential, so the task is required much more frequently by comparison.



Oh yeah,, I am amazed at the volume of material that we went through on commercial jobs. I also feel like when you are working in such large spaces, you get the illusion that material and fumes from the other side of a huge building, isn't affecting you, as much as it really is. I feel like I did a lifetime of spraying inside of a few years, so now I am content to just brush and roll whenever possible.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow,Lastcraftsman and Deech won this dispute in a very classy manner.They hit a grand slam home run,knocked it out of the park!

VERY WELL DONE.


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