# GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud.



## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi, reading this forum for last 3 years almost every day. 
Painting for last 18 years.
Thank you very much to all of you for lot's of valuable informations you are sharing here. And many funny posts as well. 

It was here that I learned about GARDZ. Got very exited by reading reviews here and started using it 2 years ago. Told several other painters about it. 
Just two weeks ago I did first adhesion test and got very disappointed and scared.
Decided to share my experience with the rest of you and ask for others to do the tape adhesion test and share your findings.

Before I continue. My apology for a very "creative' name I chose, XYZ. :wink: I was rushing to setup the account and it's late and it was 'long' work day, 
so I just picked this silly username. I might ask Admin to change it one day (if they don't ban me before that for luck of creativity), lol
Second. Apology for my English.It's not my native language. (second reason to get banned right from the start) :smile:

Now to my main point, GARDZ test.
Almost exclusively 98% of the time I use DUST CONTROL drywall mud to do the drywall repairs.
Most of the time I let it dry overnight, next day sanding with 5"Milwaukee orbital sander with vacuum cleaner attached to it or with vacuum cleaner assisted sponge sander.
I always vacuum (with soft bristle attachment) the sanded patch before priming/sealing with GARDZ (or Aqua Lock, few times I used Bulls Eye-123 water base primer/sealer). 
Let the sealer dry for min 4-6 hours but in most cases over night.

Case in point, drywall Dust Control compound, patch 24"x18" dried over night, next day sanded,vacuumed, primed with GARDZ using banana roller.
Next day (after solid 24 hours) I was scraping with 5-in-1 tool small piece of mud from the wall and made an indentation and to my horror I noticed that 
the MIGHTY GARDZ was lifting off like a skin from the drywall mudded patch area. 
I started panicking because I was so "high" on how great GARDZ was and suppose to be penetrating drywall mud very well and creating hard solid surface.
I put couple of pieces 4" long of green painters tape. After 10 minutes I lift the first piece of tape, GARDZ peeled off with the tape (40-50% of GARDZ stayed on the tape).
Second piece of tape I pulled after 30 minutes, 60-70% of GARDZ stayed on the tape. 

After that I did another test area with new drywall mud DustControl patches that dried over night, priming/sealing with Dulux X-pert, AquaLock and BULLS-123. Let it dry 24 hours.
Both of them, AquaLock and BullEye-123 come off with the green tape adhesion test (30-50% stayed on the tape). 
Dulux X-pert was the cheapest of all of them but performed the best.Nothing stayed on the green tape after 10 and 30 minutes. 

So my conclusion is that all the other primers/sealers are great for various other applications, they all stick great to the paper area of drywall board,but didn't performed on drywall mud.
I did used GARDZ four times in the last 2 years to seal torn out drywall paper, and it worked great (and I was so happy that I didn't have to use oil primer on it). 

Considering that there is a talk going on in *"Primer for drywall in bathroom"* thread about how terrible PVA drywall sealers are, I would like to ask those who use regular drywall mud (non Dust Control) to test GARDZ on it.
I was told by the rep that Dust Control mud has paraffin in it to make it heavy so it falls to the ground faster, maybe the paraffin in it creates "chemical problem" 
for GARDZ and AquaLock and BE-123 to bond to it.

I will have chance to do test with regular (non DustControl) mud in 2 or 3 weeks, if someone can do it sooner it would be very helpful for all of us to understand this issue.

But from now on I will only use good quality dedicated drywall sealer on mudded areas of drywall. The specialty primers have their place, but not in this application (in my opinion).
If it has to be PVA sealer from now on, so be it. And I will experiment with dedicated drywall sealers from other stores, like BenjMoore and SW.

Thank you.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Uh, oh. Futtyos is gonna freak out...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Uh, thanks for pointing out the problem i have been seeing for a couple of years. And your English is excellent.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think more examination of PVA needs to be performed. I wasn't going to provide the information I discovered concerning the chemistry of PVA while skimming through a bunch of sites on the subject, because I was afraid of mis-translating it.

But at a real laymen's level, it's my understanding that PVA doesn't mix with Acrylic resin very well, or water for that matter. PVA Sealer is never recommended to be mixed with other paints . And given that the binder used in the curing process of joint compound is Poly Vinyl Acetate (Which when mixed with poly vinyl alcohol become a latex resin, or something like that), I'm wondering if the Acrylic based Gardz was not compatible with the likely added component, PVA, of the joint compound you used. In other words, it goes beyond merely ph issues.


Unfortunately, painters and homeowners are distracted by looks rather than the science of coatings.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cool and calm here*



Woodco said:


> Uh, oh. Futtyos is gonna freak out...


Woodco, I have never said that Gardz was perfect for every application. Last spring I refurbished a 5' x 5' medicine cabinet that used the plaster wall as its backing. there was some peeling, so I started scraping - ending up removing more than 90% of the paint. There appeared to be some calcimine which lead me to believe that this was what was causing the paint to peel. I sanded everything down real nice, then applied a coat of Gardz. The Gardz started curling and coming off almost immediately. I ended up using BIN before top coating with Advance.

(On a side note, on this condo paint I was able to apply Gardz to most of it prior to priming or painting. The GC skimmed the walls near the medicine cabinet with Easy Sand, then topped with USG Plus 3 tinted, sanded that and primed with Zinsser 123 before I applied the top coat of Regal Select. Several weeks later, when I was refinishing the medicine cabinet, I tried taping off where the cabinet met the wall with Yellow Frog Tape. I got about 10" or so of the tape on the wall, then realized I did not position it right. When I pulled the tape off to reposition it, the very gentle, hardly sticky yellow tape pulled all the paint and primer off down to the yellow tinted Plus3. I decided not to use tape.)

As to the problem that XYZ is encountering, he says that he is using a CGC Dust Control Drywall Compound that his rep said contains paraffin wax (I am guessing that CGC is the Candian brach of USG Sheetrock Corp.). I am not a chemist, but I still remember when I was about 5 years old watching my older brother take blocks of paraffin wax and rubbing it all over his blue jeans. I asked him why he was doing that and he said that he was going sledding and that the paraffin wax would help prevent melting snow getting his jeans wet. 

When all else fails, let's read the directions. Here is an exerpt from the Gardz TDS:

PRODUCT APPLICATION .
SURFACE PREPARATION
Surfaces should be clean, dry, sound and free of dust, dirt, grime, grease, oil, wax, mildew, wallpaper adhesive, or any contamination that may interfere with adhesion. 

Taken from this:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

Sounds to me like there might be something in that dust control compound that might be preventing proper adhesion of Gardz as well as a couple of other primers. I am guessing that XYZ found out about the paraffin wax from his rep after he encountered the tape test problem. If XYZ is happy with the CGC compound, he should continue using the Dulux X-pert primer/sealer. I am not familiar with using any dust control compound. I use Durabond and Easy Sand for most of my repair work and so far, Gardz appears to be compatible with these 2 products. I like doing a final skim coat with Durabond. The directions on Durabond say not to use it as a skim coat, possibly Easy Sand as well. I find I get a very smooth, hard finish after sanding a final skim coat of Durabond. What I have also found is that rolling a coat of 123 over either a thin skim coat of Durabond or Easy Sand will "melt" either product and cause them to crinkle or turn to mush, especially so the more one backrolls the 123. If I apply a coat of Gardz directly over a thin skim coat of either Gardz or Easy Sand first, I have no problem like this and anything I roll on top of the Gardz goes on without any problems.

My guess is that the paraffin wax in the CGC is preventing the Gardz from adhering to it, just as described in the TDS for Gardz.

What I am curious about now is how I can get hold of the Dulux X-pert here is the Chicago, USA area! It sounds like a good product. If this can penetrate and harden drywall compound along with leaving a white finish that makes it much easier to point up the surface, I am all for that.

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I wonder what the compound manufacturer recommends as a primer? If it has paraffin in it i would think they would have a recommended primer type. Because nothing i know of sticks to wax. Basically.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, I have never said that Gardz was perfect for every application. Last spring I refurbished a 5' x 5' medicine cabinet that used the plaster wall as its backing. there was some peeling, so I started scraping - ending up removing more than 90% of the paint. There appeared to be some calcimine which lead me to believe that this was what was causing the paint to peel. I sanded everything down real nice, then applied a coat of Gardz. The Gardz started curling and coming off almost immediately. I ended up using BIN before top coating with Advance.
> 
> (On a side note, on this condo paint I was able to apply Gardz to most of it prior to priming or painting. The GC skimmed the walls near the medicine cabinet with Easy Sand, then topped with USG Plus 3 tinted, sanded that and primed with Zinsser 123 before I applied the top coat of Regal Select. Several weeks later, when I was refinishing the medicine cabinet, I tried taping off where the cabinet met the wall with Yellow Frog Tape. I got about 10" or so of the tape on the wall, then realized I did not position it right. When I pulled the tape off to reposition it, the very gentle, hardly sticky yellow tape pulled all the paint and primer off down to the yellow tinted Plus3. I decided not to use tape.)
> 
> ...


One word. PVA.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Dulux x-pert primer isn't really anything special, just a high grade vinyl acrylic wall primer. It just isn't cheapened to the point of imminent failure to meet a box store price requirement!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, I have never said that Gardz was perfect for every application. Last spring I refurbished a 5' x 5' medicine cabinet that used the plaster wall as its backing. there was some peeling, so I started scraping - ending up removing more than 90% of the paint. There appeared to be some calcimine which lead me to believe that this was what was causing the paint to peel. I sanded everything down real nice, then applied a coat of Gardz. The Gardz started curling and coming off almost immediately. I ended up using BIN before top coating with Advance.
> 
> (On a side note, on this condo paint I was able to apply Gardz to most of it prior to priming or painting. The GC skimmed the walls near the medicine cabinet with Easy Sand, then topped with USG Plus 3 tinted, sanded that and primed with Zinsser 123 before I applied the top coat of Regal Select. Several weeks later, when I was refinishing the medicine cabinet, I tried taping off where the cabinet met the wall with Yellow Frog Tape. I got about 10" or so of the tape on the wall, then realized I did not position it right. When I pulled the tape off to reposition it, the very gentle, hardly sticky yellow tape pulled all the paint and primer off down to the yellow tinted Plus3. I decided not to use tape.)
> 
> ...


TL;DR. I was kidding. Chill.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I know I really don't like the Dust Control joint compound. I guess all that wax/silica in the mud makes sanding it next to impossible. It gums up sanding sponges and drywall screen and you need elbow replacement after sanding a roomful of that stuff.


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

I have yet had a chance to try Gardz, But I have used PVA many times to seal new Sheetrock. I have never encountered problems when used for this purpose only.Has every one really encountered that many problems with it?


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

PACman said:


> Uh, thanks for pointing out the problem i have been seeing for a couple of years. *And your English is excellent.*


PACman, thank you but sooner or latter I will prove you wrong. :vs_laugh:

Always enjoying reading your posts, especially results of your Hillbilly lab tests. 



PACman said:


> Dulux x-pert primer isn't really anything special, just a high grade vinyl acrylic wall primer. It just isn't cheapened to the point of imminent failure to meet a box store price requirement!


I'm expecting to get good adhesion results over DustControl mud also from other dedicated drywall sealers from B/M like Fresh Start for example.
Used other lines of Fresh Start primers and like it, tho not every job calls for such expensive primers, but I also avoid buying the cheapest primers.
Few bad personal experience with cheap primers and stories from you guys were enough not to go cheap on primers. 
Mid grade or high quality is the norm for me.When I'm doing sometimes rental repaints I use mid-grade primers, for residential homes high quality primers just to avoid problems. 

I was told that the CORONADO Super Kote® 3000 Interior Primer that B/M sells is quite good and costs almost 40-50% less then Fresh Start.I'm going to try Coronado next time to see how it works with DustControl mud. 

Trying not to do business with SW,tho I really like theirs PRO INDUSTRIAL Multi-Surface Acrylic, especially for trim jobs.
I tried PPG Paints Break-Through 250 VOC version on brand new metal doors (primed with Stix Waterborne Bonding Primer), two coats of B-T and three weeks later door marrs too much for my liking. 
Can not get the original formula of B-T with higher VOC only the 250 version.I read here on PT that the original version is harder after it cures.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Here's my problem with Gardz, and Romans R35, I've used these for wall prep before hanging 54" vinyl. Many times if a wall has been damaged and said vinyl has to removed to replace, the Gardz, R35 peels off leaving a gummy, rubberized substrate. Now on PT there are Gardz nazi's who will defend it to no end and refuse to address issues such as this!


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, I have never said that Gardz was perfect for every application. Last spring I refurbished a 5' x 5' medicine cabinet that used the plaster wall as its backing. there was some peeling, so I started scraping - ending up removing more than 90% of the paint. There appeared to be some calcimine which lead me to believe that this was what was causing the paint to peel. I sanded everything down real nice, then applied a coat of Gardz. The Gardz started curling and coming off almost immediately. I ended up using BIN before top coating with Advance.
> 
> (On a side note, on this condo paint I was able to apply Gardz to most of it prior to priming or painting. The GC skimmed the walls near the medicine cabinet with Easy Sand, then topped with USG Plus 3 tinted, sanded that and primed with Zinsser 123 before I applied the top coat of Regal Select. Several weeks later, when I was refinishing the medicine cabinet, I tried taping off where the cabinet met the wall with Yellow Frog Tape. I got about 10" or so of the tape on the wall, then realized I did not position it right. When I pulled the tape off to reposition it, the very gentle, hardly sticky yellow tape pulled all the paint and primer off down to the yellow tinted Plus3. I decided not to use tape.)
> 
> ...


Hi futtyos, thanks for chiming in. 
Yes you are right, GARDZ is warring about it but I thought that paraffin wax in the drywall mud will not have such effect.
Lesson learned. 

futtyos, like to ask you when you will have chance to do the tape adhesion test of GARDZ over various mud compounds that you are using to see how it performs.

No, I knew about the paraffin in the DustControl mud for few years now, I asked to make sure they didn't add something nasty heavy stuff like lead :devil3: lol, 
for example to make it heavy so it falls quickly to the ground.

As PACman said Dulux X-pert isn't anything super special as a primer/sealer.
But if you are not using DustControl mud you are OK with your proved methods and products you are using now.




Gymschu said:


> I know I really don't like the Dust Control joint compound. I guess all that wax/silica in the mud makes sanding it next to impossible. It gums up sanding sponges and drywall screen and you need elbow replacement after sanding a roomful of that stuff.


As Gymschu mentioned, not everybody likes to use DustControl for above reasons.
To me the benefit of A very little dust flying around is worth the issues that Gymschu mentioned.Compromise I guess.
Tho it helps with sanding larger areas using vacuum assisted orbital sander, in my case 5" Milwaukee, or vacuum assisted sponge sander as in the picture.
To connect Millwaukee orbital sander or the sponge sander I bought 6 (or it was 8) feet of black hose from a vacuum repair shop and a second set of HYDE-Dust Free Sponge Sander so I can use extra connectors from it to make separate permanent connection to Millwaukee sander and the other set of HYDE I use as I needed with the sponge. 

I can post pictures of my setup if you guys like to see it, maybe it will help others to make inexpensive yet very efficient vacuum assisted sanding rig.

I was going to buy the FESTOOL sanding rig, but this setup that I put togheter serves me good so far, and I found FESTOOL sanders to be much bulkier than the Millwaukee 5" orbital is.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*I'll take your word for it*



Brushman4 said:


> Here's my problem with Gardz, and Romans R35, I've used these for wall prep before hanging 54" vinyl. Many times if a wall has been damaged and said vinyl has to removed to replace, the Gardz, R35 peels off leaving a gummy, rubberized substrate. Now on PT there are Gardz nazi's who will defend it to no end and refuse to address issues such as this!


Brushman4, I don't believe I have ever hung wallpaper (nor ever wanted to, for that matter!), just repaired seams and glued* on loose paper from time to time. I will take your word for how Gardz and Roman R35 come off when removing vinyl wallpaper.

futtyos


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

Lazerlnes said:


> I have yet had a chance to try Gardz, But I have used PVA many times to seal new Sheetrock. I have never encountered problems when used for this purpose only.Has every one really encountered that many problems with it?


I have also used PVA primer to prime new drywall on dozens of homes and never had an issue with it. Haven't tried it on other surfaces so can't comment on that but it works great for new drywall and it's cheap so I'll continue using it for new construction.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

Haris said:


> I have also used PVA primer to prime new drywall on dozens of homes and never had an issue with it. Haven't tried it on other surfaces so can't comment on that but it works great for new drywall and it's cheap so I'll continue using it for new construction.


I have no experience with GARDZ over regular drywall mud (only over DustControl mud), but if GARDZ adheres properly to regular drywall mud I would definitely use it on walls with lot's of light or in the stairway with sky light if eggshell paint is applied on them to eliminate drywall mud areas from flashing.
Also GARDZ slows down drying process of top coat paint giving more open time if there is a need for that.

Do keep it as a potential primer/sealer for those specific applications.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

XYZ said:


> I have no experience with GARDZ over regular drywall mud (only over DustControl mud), but if GARDZ adheres properly to regular drywall mud I would definitely use it on walls with lot's of light or in the stairway with sky light if eggshell paint is applied on them to eliminate drywall mud areas from flashing.
> Also GARDZ slows down drying process of top coat paint giving more open time if there is a need for that.
> 
> Do keep it as a potential primer/sealer for those specific applications.


Thanks for the tip I'll keep that in mind. We usually use PVA from SW or Ultra Spec primer from BM and stairwells with a lot of natural light coming in we would top coat with 2 coats of matte finish either Duration or Aura to avoid any flashing. I'll try GARDZ on a smaller project and do final coat in eggshell to see if it prevents flashing. If it doesn't I'll just redo it in matte finish lol


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

I believe the spec on Gardz is two coats..?


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Nowhere in the original post after sanding was there a mention of wiping down the patch with a damp sponge prior to priming. You could vacuum all you want but you still need to wipe down the sanded patch. Seems like the obvious is being overlooked. I'm guessing this was the reason for the failure.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

getrex said:


> I believe the spec on Gardz is two coats..?


Apply only when air, material, and surface temperatures
are between 50-90ºF (10-32ºC) and the relative humidity
is below 85%. Thoroughly mix before using. DO NOT
THIN. Apply GARDZ liberally to the entire surface using a
brush, medium nap roller or sprayer, to ensure good
penetration. Do not over apply or the coating will sag.
GARDZ appears milky blue-white during the application
but dries water clear. Properly sealed surfaces should
have a uniform sheen. Reapply to areas that have been
missed or lack sufficient coating. 

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

futtyos


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

loaded brush said:


> Nowhere in the original post after sanding was there a mention of wiping down the patch with a damp sponge prior to priming.* You could vacuum all you want but you still need to wipe down the sanded patch. Seems like the obvious is being overlooked. I'm guessing this was the reason for the failure.*





XYZ said:


> Hi, reading this forum for last 3 years almost every day.
> Painting for last 18 years.
> Thank you very much to all of you for lot's of valuable informations you are sharing here. And many funny posts as well.
> 
> ...



As you can read one primer performed very well, it was Dulux X-pert.
There is no need to wiping down with damp sponge if proper vacuuming is done. 
If that was the case than Dulux primer/sealer would not work also, but it did,very well actually.
I'm not sure if you read rest of my original post but the culprit is the paraffin wax in the DustControl compound.
Aqua Lock and BullsEye-123 didn't work either on DustControl.

Millions of acres of new construction drywall (using regular drywall compound) is primed every year with only vacuuming or swiping with large 'mops' and if proper bonding primer/sealer is used there is no problem.
Nobody in the industry would agree to run around and wipe down walls and ceilings with dump sponge after vacuuming. 
Unless extra charges approved by the GC and we know ain't gonna happen.

I'm sure Dulex X-pert is not the only primer that works on DustControl compound and I'm going to do some more tests in the next 2 to 3 weeks.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

So after my sad discovery _(in my opening post of this thread)_ that GARDZ (and BullsEye-123 & AquaLock primers) were not adhering to the DustControl drywall compound (DC contains paraffin wax in order to be heavy and fall to the ground), I did tests with regular (non paraffin containing drywall compound).

In picture* 1.* you see the type of drywall compound used, (I put quite a thick layer, over 1/8" thick) it dried over night /24 hours. 
*2. * type of roller used. (I used this thick banana roller on purpose so I can apply lot's of product).
*3. * Products used.Primers dried over night (24 hours).
*4.* Sample board.
*5.* Sample board.
*6. * REPAIRZ past the 10 minutes adhesion test 100%.
*7. * GARDZ left very very little on the tape, but it's nothing significant. (at least on this size of the sample board)
The other primers passed with flying colors the 10 min and the 30 minutes adhesion tests,(so I'm not going to post the pictures here).

*8*. Test with 3 primers on the factory primed MDF from H-Dep store. 
GARDZ and the other two primers were XIM-REPAIRZ and XIM-PEEL BOND. 
All three primers passed the adhesion test 100 %.

*9.* 
Four primers test done on bare MDF, (I was told that it's classified as a "Gold MDF") 
-GARDZ
-XIM REPAIRZ
-XIM PEEL BOND
-AQUA LOCK
All four primers passed the adhesion test on bare MDF 100%.
I felt that GARDZ did raise the fibers of the MDF a bit, REPAIRZ raised the fibers very little, much less than GARDZ.
The XIM PellBond didn't raised any fibers, it was very very smooth.
But the PeelBond is the thickest of all of them, (since I don't spry), so I'm not sure how it would work in spraying guns.
But brush & roll PeelBond is not a problem at all.
REPAIRZ (from the same company as PeelBond) is thinner and less expensive. 
I will do more tests on unprimed MDF, just to make sure that REPAIRZ is raising the fibers enough not to use it.
On factory primed MDF REPAIRZ was excellent. 

*I hope other painters here will also do testings so we can compare the results.
*

*BTW, I didn't sand any of the factory primed (or unprimed) MDF prior to priming.*

*10. *I was very interested in how AquaLock will perform since it's white tinted primer and as the name suggests is water blocking primer.
Adhesion test was 100%,didn't raised any fibers on both factory primed and un-primed MDF that I could detect. 
It might be very good alternative to the oil primers, more tests need to be done by different painters to make sure.Especially by those painters who spry how they like it's leveling and sandability.
I did some sanding, it's quite hard primer, but my sample area was too small to draw significant conclusions as to sandability of AquaLock.

On factory white primed MDF the clear primers (especially REPAIRZ & PeelBond) are absolutely great because those MDFs are being already white and they will provide not only extremely well seal surface but as* futtyos* was mentioning (and Jack Pauhl) those primers will provide much longer 'open time' if you are brushing & rolling.

In few more pictures (6 or 7 pictures) that I will post in my next post will be of the AquaLock primer.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

Checking sandibility of AquaLock primer on MDF.
The only thing with AqL primer is that it has 'grayish' tone, but with two coats of white top coat it should be no problem. 
I'm not sure if AqL will extend 'open' time of the top coat application like the other 3 primers would. 

I hope other painters will do more testing so we can know for sure if we can have solid reliable water based alternative to oil primers.

In my opinion factory primed MDF (_NO SANDING PRIOR TO PRIMING_) primed with GARDZ - XIM REPAIRZ - XIM PeelBond are solid choices from my small sampling tests.

Only thing left to focus in further testings is the unprimed MDF. 

I hope I didn't bore you too much...:vs_shocked:


*EDIT:*
(banana roller was moisten with water and spinned before applying first primer, and after that it was washed and spinned each time different primer was used)


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

Of course final test will be application of the top coat (coats) of paint to make sure it will not raise the MDF fibers.
But that also might depend on the brand and quality of the top coat of paint.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

futtyos said:


> woodco, after reading about your experience spraying gardz, i would be very hesitant to spray it myself. As far as rolling an even coat of gardz over factory primed mdf, i did it and it worked great! The gardz wetted and soaked through the cheap factory primer and after it thoroughly dried, the top coats went over the gardz very well.
> 
> I didn't come up with this idea myself. Several years ago i painted my first mdf factory primed trim on some door jambs. The mdf sucked the paint off my brush like a vacuum. Then i read an article by jack pauhl regarding applying gardz over factory primed mdf:
> 
> ...


*This ^ *


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

PACman said:


> I wonder what the compound manufacturer recommends as a primer? If it has paraffin in it i would think they would have a recommended primer type. Because nothing i know of sticks to wax. Basically.


After my very positive adhesion test with GARDZ over regular drywall compound (results in post #23,picture *7.* and mud used pic *1.*) I reconsidered my use of DustControl and decided that I will switch to using regular drywall mud.
On special occasions I might still use D-C.

Some of them fly a lot when sanded others less, I will have to experiment with them, but today I was sanding for the first time (applied yesterday) new to me picture related compound,bit watery, but is sanding very nice and is not flying all over the place, tho I almost always use sponge vacuum assisted sander or 5" Milwaukee orbital vacuum assisted sander. 
I primed that compound with AquaLock since the walls are in the bathroom. 

Using regular (non paraffin wax containing compound) will allow me to use wider variety of primers/sealers including GARDZ.
Also sanding regular mud will be easier than D-C.

I know that Dulux-Expert dedicated primer/sealer sticks to D-Control mud (I'm sure other brands shuld as well) but I like the idea of being able to use GARDZ on some projects,especially on light exposed walls or staircases with skylights and using eggshell paint.
From my testing the XIM-REPAIRZ worked better that GARDZ and is tintible, and smells less and 'nicer' than GARDZ.
Also I think REPAIRZ was sanding better than G. 
I will buy gallon of it and ask store to tinted white (but only max allowed is up to 2 ounces) and see how that works. 
https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...h/CBG/XIM/XIM-13_RepairZ_Wall_Sealer_TDS.ashx


Going to do more samples on bare (unprimed MDF with REPAIRZ and Peel-Bond.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

xyz said:


> after my very positive adhesion test with GARDZ over regular drywall compound.....
> 
> From my testing the XIM-REPAIRZ worked better /that/ *than* GARDZ and is tintible, and smells less and 'nicer' than GARDZ.
> Also I think REPAIRZ was sanding better than G.
> ...


*. . . .correction/edit*


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time to examine the different primers and sharing the results.

I have a couple of questions and comments;

1. I could not find Paraffin in the CGC ingredient. I did find Attapulgite, which is a clay that does behave similarly to a plastic. That's likely the ingredient for dust control. The other ingredients were a biocide and perlite.

2. Why didn't you prime the CGC with the recommended primer, "Brand First Coat"? I wonder if the results would have been different.

3. As to the Gardz verses the Dulux Expert primer, it appears the Dulux is a vinyl acrylic resin, which would be compatible with the PVA resin found in most joint compounds as I understand it. Vinyl Acrylic is often preferred over 100% acrylic because it is cheaper. However, there may be an argument that a 100% acrylic primer may not be as suitable for a bare joint compound substrate as would a primer sharing similar ingredients.

4. And finally, would you apply the GARDZ over the Dulux for better sheen hold out?


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> *Thanks* for taking the time to examine the different primers and sharing the results.
> 
> I have a couple of questions and comments;
> 
> ...


*You* are very welcome *CA*, 
yes it takes time to set up all the sampling but I'm very glad to share it with others here, since others share so much as well :smile:.
Now I'm determined to find solid 100%proof waterborne product-(s) primers to be used on factory primed or unprimed MDF so if oil primer can not be used the water based products can be used without causing any problems.

*1.* Interesting, I was told by the store manager who called the supplier that the CGC Dust-Control mud has paraffin in it in order to make it heavy. 

I used the CGC *regular* All Purpose mud (pic *1.*) in order to verify that it was the paraffin wax in the D-Control mud that caused the failure of three different (BullsEye-123, AquaLock and Gardz) very good quality primers not to adhere properly to Dust-Control mud patches.
Tho those 3 primers are not specifically designed/formulated to be used as drywall mud primers, but they are used by so many painters and nobody ever reported adhesion problems with them on regular drywall mud, so my final test over regular drywall mud confirmed that D-C containing paraffin wax was the reason for very weak adhesion, not the 3 other primers.

I have bad personal feelings that I used D-C mud and GARDZ for several projects and now I know that the adhesion of G over D-C mud is not that great.But I'm hoping to be forgiven since I was sincerely not aware of it.

That was the main reason I decided to join the PT Forum as soon as I found that out to *warn* other painters who might be also using D-C (or other brands of drywall mud containing paraffin wax,or whatever the ingredient is to make them heavy).

*2.* You are making goods observation and comment CA, yes it's my omission not to follow the recommended product, I never thought it might be an issue.
I wish they printed brief* info-Warning* on the front of the label that this D-Control mud requires special primer/sealer,that regular primers might not work on it.

*3.* interesting take on it, I have to think about it.

*4. * Yes, for better sheen holdout GARDZ is excellent ,and also it gives much longer open time, especially painting with very fast thick gummy paints during hot dry days.

From my latest test looks like the XIM-REPAIRZ wilL be my choice over GARDZ, (one of the reason is that has "nicer smell" not as strong as G).
Also from my small sample the R has better sanding quality over G, but I will do more testing on bigger surface. 

Also considering that REPAIRZ can be tinted white (or whatever color, up to 2 oz) for me the R it's better choice over G, because G can not be tinted according to the Manufacture's PDF.


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## kerryman71 (Oct 9, 2017)

Recently used the Aqualock on a ceiling (20' X 12'), with lots of repairs done using dust control joint compound (can't remember which brand). Didn't have any adhesion issues, and after the first coat of Ben Moore Ultra Flat 508, the homeowner thought I was done. I told them I was going to apply a second coat the next day. They thought it looked fine the way it was, but after the second coat agreed that it looked that much better.

Hope this helps a little in regards to the use of Aqualock primer.

John


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

kerryman71 said:


> *Recently used the Aqualock on a ceiling (20' X 12'), with lots of repairs done using dust control joint compound (can't remember which brand). Didn't have any adhesion issues,* and after the first coat of Ben Moore Ultra Flat 508, the homeowner thought I was done. I told them I was going to apply a second coat the next day. They thought it looked fine the way it was, but after the second coat agreed that it looked that much better.
> 
> Hope this helps a little in regards to the use of Aqualock primer.
> 
> John


I used AquaLock many _many_ times over Dust-ControL by CGC, but I never did actual adhesion test, and as I described in my opening post in this thread,...
*"After that I did another test area with new drywall mud DustControl patches that dried over night, priming/sealing with Dulux X-pert, AquaLock and BULLS-123. Let it dry 24 hours.
Both of them, AquaLock and BullEye-123 come off with the green tape adhesion test (30-50% stayed on the tape)...." *

Patches were vacuumed after they were sanded before priming.

The adhesion test, (10 minutes and 30 minutes tape staying on the primer) was an eye opening that those primers were not adhering 100% to D-Control mud as they should.
I don't know if you did adhesion test on that ceiling but next time if you have chance do the test to check it out if you are satisfied with the results.
_(picture of the exact brand of DustControl I was using is in my first post)_.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

kerryman71 said:


> Recently used the Aqualock on a ceiling (20' X 12'), with lots of repairs done using dust control joint compound (can't remember which brand). Didn't have any adhesion issues, and after the first coat of Ben Moore Ultra Flat 508, the homeowner thought I was done. I told them I was going to apply a second coat the next day. They thought it looked fine the way it was, but after the second coat agreed that it looked that much better.
> 
> Hope this helps a little in regards to the use of Aqualock primer.
> 
> John


I took pictures today from two bathrooms I'm repainting.
In those bathrooms I switched from using Dust-Control by CGC, and used (for the first time for me) the* Hamilton All Purpose* drywall mud, (see pic).

Mud dried over night/24hrs, primer (AquaLock) dried over night/24hrs.
Patches were sanded with orbital sander 100 grit and vacuumed.
See the adhesion test results.I was expecting better results to be honest.
AqLock is recommended for drywall (and bunch of other substrates), it's a general purpose primer, not dedicated drywall primer/sealer tho.
I'm not giving up on it, will be testing more and with couple of different drywall muds.

Tomorrow I'm buying gallon of XIM-REPAIRZ and asking Dulux store to tinted with two ounces (maximum allowed for tinting X-R) of white Universal Pigments (they are prescribed by the XIM manufacturer for tinting, and Dulux is using them).


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

Here is a funny thing that happened today when I was writing on the tape time when I put it on, that piece of tape was already on the wall in one of the bathrooms, Lol
The primer (Aq-L) and some mud come off with the tape and I wasn't pressing hard, I used Paper Mate gell pen, they don't require much pressure to write.
Not a big deal but I was surprised...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Just seeing the "100% Acrylic" on the can of Aqua Lock makes me wonder even more if the cheaper vinyl acrylic resin primers are a better choice for bare joint compound. Good testing XYZ! Very interesting.

That tape scenario is bizzare. What type of tape are you using? I didn't catch the brand upstream.

Thanks.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> Just seeing the "100% Acrylic" on the can of Aqua Lock makes me wonder even more if the cheaper vinyl acrylic resin primers are a better choice for bare joint compound. Good testing XYZ! Very interesting.
> 
> That tape scenario is bizzare. What type of tape are you using? I didn't catch the brand upstream.
> 
> Thanks.


It's from RONA store, I like it better that the other standard green tape, it has different glue, not necessary stronger glue but something different about it, more flexible glue if you will.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> Just seeing the "100% Acrylic" on the can of Aqua Lock makes me wonder even more if the cheaper vinyl acrylic resin primers are a better choice for bare joint compound. Good testing XYZ! Very interesting.
> 
> That tape scenario is bizzare. What type of tape are you using? I didn't catch the brand upstream.
> 
> Thanks.


Thanks CP.
Yes, the 100%Acrylic in primer might be beneficial if you go just over previous paint (in color change for example if particular color needs primer, or in bonding primers), but I tend to agree with you that bare drywall and drywall mud is different challenge.

When I get next job with drywall mud patches I'm going to test PVA primer from Sh-W and KILZ PVA from H-Dep just to test the adhesion levels. 
Tho I'm looking forward towards using tinted white XIM-REPAIRZ on drywall mud, (as well on bare and factory primed MDF).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

XYZ said:


> Thanks CP.
> Yes, the 100%Acrylic in primer might be beneficial if you go just over previous paint (in color change for example if particular color needs primer, or in bonding primers), but I tend to agree with you that bare drywall and drywall mud is different challenge.
> 
> When I get next job with drywall mud patches I'm going to test PVA primer from Sh-W and KILZ PVA from H-Dep just to test the adhesion levels.
> Tho I'm looking forward towards using tinted white XIM-REPAIRZ on drywall mud, (as well on bare and factory primed MDF).


Maybe the benefits associated with 100% acrylics, in terms of good adhesion, applies more towards common bare substrates like wood, metal, concrete, and drywall. And it's that "bare drywall" that can be confusing. Are we talking about the actual drywall board surface, which is a cellulose material, or are we talking about the joint compound surface? And does an all purpose 100% acrylic primer really address both surfaces adequately. I would imagine it has great adhesion on "Bare Drywall", but I'm not so sure on the joint compound.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

If you guys figure it out that I'm gonna have to use a different primer on mud than board, I'm not gonna be happy. Can't imagine cutting in around every screw hole and joint seam.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> Maybe the benefits associated with 100% acrylics, in terms of good adhesion, applies more towards common bare substrates like wood, metal, concrete, and drywall. And it's that *"bare drywall"* that can be confusing. Are we talking about the actual drywall board surface, which is a cellulose material, or are we talking about the joint compound surface? And does an all purpose 100% acrylic primer really address both surfaces adequately. I would imagine it has great adhesion on "Bare Drywall", but I'm not so sure on the joint compound.


Yes, you are correct, it's bit confusing when term *bare drywall *is used.
My focus is on drywall joint compounds & primers/sealers adhesion to it, the cellulose/paper sections of drywalls are not challenging with all those primers from adhesion point, only the mud areas.



Wildbill7145 said:


> If you guys figure it out that I'm gonna have to *use a different primer on mud than board,* I'm not gonna be happy. Can't imagine cutting in around every screw hole and joint seam.


Lol, no we are after one primer solution. 
But in perfect world your idea might be .... no no ....no, please NO...:vs_shocked:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you guys figure it out that I'm gonna have to use a different primer on mud than board, I'm not gonna be happy. Can't imagine cutting in around every screw hole and joint seam.


I think it all falls back to using a simple PVA sealer, which has performed adequately for years on both drywall and joint compound surfaces.

The problem is, painters don't get the build and hide with a thin film of a lower solids PVA sealer compared to a higher solids 100% acrylic all purpose primer.

And given the use of more eggshell finishes these days compared to the better "defect hiding" flat finishes used widely in the industry years ago, it's no wonder painters are looking for a higher hold out primer. Which 100% Acrylic has proven to be. 

It will be a tough sell to introduce an extra PVA treatment in a process that will require a subsequent application of a 100% acrylic primer in order to meet the proper sheen and finish requirements from the budget minded customer. Consequently, there may be less optimal adhesion to bare joint compound in order to meet the customer's budget.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Soooo... I'm bored and I just can't help it. No, I'm not reading the scientific journal of hillbilly lab tests. Wayyy too wordy and I lost interest somewhere on page 1 I think? Maybe it was page 2. What caught my interest was a few pics I perused. Are we seriously testing a primer that was applied only 30 minutes prior to tape being applied and then drawing conclusions about bonding properties? Gawd I hope I'm wrong cuz that would just be stupid. Please enlighten me so i don't have to read the entire lab report!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

XIM for potential bonding issues. BIN Shellac based primer for serious stain/bleed through problems. SW Problock for everything else. Those pretty much cover it all for me.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

XYZ said:


> Hi, reading this forum for last 3 years almost every day.
> Painting for last 18 years.
> Thank you very much to all of you for lot's of valuable informations you are sharing here. And many funny posts as well.
> 
> ...


To XYZ's defense, he did state, in the OP, that he let the primers dry over night. (see bold paragraph with particular emphasis on blue paragraph).

I believe his subsequent thirty minute tests were driven by the fact that the Dulux Expert vinyl acrylic primer had no adverse adhesion after only thirty minutes. (Note: I did not read the recoat time on the TDS)

So again, I think his tests have merit. 

And although this can be considered "Hillbilly" science in my opinion (no offense XYZ) I think it demonstrates practical application. Particularly, since many painters are relying on quick dry primers to expedite jobs.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I had a feeling I was missing something. thanks CA!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I’ve sanded through some thin veneers in my time - but I think LPC just burned through the thinnest I’ve seen so far.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I’ve sanded through some thin veneers in my time - but I think LPC just burned through the thinnest I’ve seen so far.


I don't know, it might be thicker than you think. Especially when manufacturers like Zinsser, claim products can be recoated in one hour. Like Bullseye 123 for example.

And granted a lot of variables weren't addressed by XYZ, like ambient temperatures, WFT/DFT, and recoat time parameters. But, there are concerns with solvent entrapment that can prevent full performance from these primers if recoated before a film can be adequately formed.

A thirty minute test may not provide a fair assessment, but it does provide a base line if one particular primer held up the best in that limited range.

I don't know about others, but I'm always chomping at the bit to recoat as soon as I can and recommended per the TDS, in a lot of situations.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I wasn't disputing anything, I think the thread was pretty informative with lots of engagement. I was just being lazy and was hoping for a summary! Jeeze, I'm ok with being wrong, it doesn't hurt my feelings 1 bit! ROFLOLOL

RH, want a marshmallow? It's smores time!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> I wasn't disputing anything, I think the thread was pretty informative with lots of engagement. I was just being lazy and was hoping for a summary! Jeeze, I'm ok with being wrong, it doesn't hurt my feelings 1 bit! ROFLOLOL
> 
> RH, want a marshmallow? It's smores time!


I was actually impressed and threatened at the same time that you caught that discrepancy as quickly as you did! I was just trying to recover the fumble and not appear like I was supporting stupid.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Well, THAT was quick.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

******


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

RH said:


> Well, THAT was quick.


Roflololol


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## cloud9 (Oct 21, 2017)

quotes from OP's posts:

post #1.
"I put couple of pieces 4" long of green painters tape. *After 10 minutes I lift the first piece of tape,* GARDZ peeled off with the tape (40-50% of GARDZ stayed on the tape).
*Second piece of tape I pulled after 30 minutes,* 60-70% of GARDZ stayed on the tape."


post #23.
*3.* Products used.*Primers dried over night (24 hours).*


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## cloud9 (Oct 21, 2017)

quote from OP's post #1.

"After that I did another test area with new drywall mud DustControl patches that dried over night, *priming/sealing with Dulux X-pert, AquaLock and BULLS-123. Let it dry 24 hours.*
Both of them, AquaLock and BullEye-123 come off with the green tape adhesion test (30-50% stayed on the tape). 
Dulux X-pert was the cheapest of all of them but performed the best.*Nothing stayed on the green tape after 10 and 30 minutes." *


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

RH said:


> Well, THAT was quick.


i think we're gonna need a bigger bag of marshmallows.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> i think we're gonna need a bigger bag of marshmallows.


I hate marshmallows, you can have my share, they're nothing but sugar suspended in air!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> I hate marshmallows, you can have my share, they're nothing but sugar suspended in air!


I'm usually not a huge fan either but a perfectly toasted, fresh off the fire, gooey on the inside one sure hits the spot (for me anyway) sometimes. Care for some popcorn instead?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah LPC, marshmallows are gross.  

Of course that statement excludes Lucky Charms (they're magically delicious) and the little ones used in hot chocolate. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Yeah LPC, marshmallows are gross.
> 
> Of course that statement excludes Lucky Charms (they're magically delicious) and the little ones used in hot chocolate.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Lol...i think they're both made of the same substance. Neither of which can be toasted. I agree though, those are yummy.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Let's not get carried away. A valid discrepancy was discovered and a reasonable explanation was offered. Being candid was simply a peace offering.The End.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm pretty sure that marshmallows are made from the leftover materials at yoga mat manufacturing companies.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

getrex said:


> I'm pretty sure that marshmallows are made from the leftover materials at yoga mat manufacturing companies.
> 
> Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


Well anything can be made to taste good with a bit of chocolate in it!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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