# Look what happened...



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Proform, 3.5 in. Oval. Couple years old, used on a couple projects.

This happened today when using a wire brush to clean dried bullseye 123 from the bristles...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Proform, 3.5 in. Oval. Couple years old, used on a couple projects.
> 
> This happened today when using a wire brush to clean dried bullseye 123 from the bristles...















But what can you expect from a $12.00 brush ??


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Perfectly OK to shame them publicly--Proform punks, u make us painters puke. Pee--yew!
:jester:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> Proform, 3.5 in. Oval. Couple years old, used on a couple projects.
> 
> This happened today when using a wire brush to clean dried bullseye 123 from the bristles...


Next time use bin, then wash it with water and a wire brush


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Keep tellin' you all that those Chinese brushes are crap.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I've had a couple proforma that did OK but 50% success rate ain't that great!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> Proform, 3.5 in. Oval. Couple years old, used on a couple projects.
> 
> This happened today when using a wire brush to clean dried bullseye 123 from the bristles...


See, I told you those were escutcheon pins, not rivets. Jeez.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> See, I told you those were escutcheon pins, not rivets. Jeez.


RIVETS ??!?!??? In a brush ferrule??? PREPOSTEROUS !!!!


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## harleyjoe (Jun 20, 2015)

Wooster brushes....the only way to go in my mind.they keep a nice crisp edge/point and clean up nice.....


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Put 6 screws in it. It already has pilot holes. Lol


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## sd021 (Jun 8, 2015)

robladd said:


> Put 6 screws in it. It already has pilot holes. Lol


This, definitely fixable with a couple of screws


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> RIVETS ??!?!??? In a brush ferrule??? PREPOSTEROUS !!!!


It was a reference to TJ's previous thread:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/jeez-43954/

We've had similar failures over the years with a number of brands. The one that's been unique to Proforms is when most of the bristles come out of the ferrule while the brush is being cleaned.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> It was a reference to TJ's previous thread:
> 
> http://www.painttalk.com/f2/jeez-43954/
> 
> We've had similar failures over the years with a number of brands. The one that's been unique to Proforms is when most of the bristles come out of the ferrule while the brush is being cleaned.


See, you're not ready to retire, you can still remember back . . . . 

what day is today ?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> See, you're not ready to retire, you can still remember back . . . .
> 
> what day is today ?


K and I have talked about getting one of these:


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Richards Oval Fat Boy...great Canadian brush ! After one batch ProForm and a sink full of bright orange hair ....I found a great upgrade in Richard products . http://www.arichard.com/en/catalog/...series,-microfilament-polyester,-wood-handle/

:thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

harleyjoe said:


> Wooster brushes....the only way to go in my mind.they keep a nice crisp edge/point and clean up nice.....


What does the several periods mean after your sentence? Is it a challenge to your claim? Because I would argue that Corona brushes are better than Woosters.............


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> What does the several periods mean after your sentence? Is it a challenge to your claim? Because I would argue that Corona brushes are better than Woosters.............


From Wikipedia:

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.[1] Depending on their context and placement in a sentence, ellipses can also indicate an unfinished thought, a leading statement, a slight pause, a mysterious, echoing voice, or a nervous or awkward silence. Aposiopesis is the use of an ellipsis to trail off into silence—for example: "But I thought he was . . ." When placed at the beginning or end of a sentence, the ellipsis can also inspire a feeling of melancholy or longing.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of dots that usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.[1] Depending on their context and placement in a sentence, ellipses can also indicate an unfinished thought, a leading statement, a slight pause, a mysterious, echoing voice, or a nervous or awkward silence. Aposiopesis is the use of an ellipsis to trail off into silence—for example: "But I thought he was . . ." When placed at the beginning or end of a sentence, the ellipsis can also inspire a feeling of melancholy or longing.


So it was a challenge, as in "leading statement"?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Brush talk


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> What does the several periods mean after your sentence? Is it a challenge to your claim? Because I would argue that Corona brushes are better than Woosters.............


I too argue Corona brushes are better than Woosters.

But even so, I paradoxically argue the Woosters repackaged as Ben Moore are better than Corona.

Not based on any substance, mind you. Simply on the fact that the BM brushes primarily exist in picture form on the internet, and are never stocked widely or reliably where I buy paint/sundries.

Oh, and the markup. That higher price tag on the BM makes um better too.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

But I thought . . . . 

oh, never mind


  :jester:


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## harleyjoe (Jun 20, 2015)

i'll go with the a mysterious, echoing voice capainter.i did not realize we were in school sorry my bad.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

harleyjoe said:


> i'll go with the a mysterious, echoing voice capainter.i did not realize we were in school sorry my bad.


If I can learn how to right while visiting Paint Talk, that's cool. Thanks to Gough, now I know how to interpret those ellipses...or not.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> If I can learn how to right while visiting Paint Talk, that's cool. Thanks to Gough, now I know how to interpret those ellipses...or not.


Well done, CA, well done.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> I too argue Corona brushes are better than Woosters.
> 
> But even so, I paradoxically argue the Woosters repackaged as Ben Moore are better than Corona.
> 
> ...


You can come by my place, I stock 'em. I'll mark 'em extra high so they'll be extra good for you.


...ellipses.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Well done, CA, well done.


As much as I'd like to take credit for being clever, I can't.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CA do you believe that language evolves swiftly, from generation to generation, as a natural process, or are you of the opinion that language is degraded and diluted when meanings are changed or expanded, as with the internet's widespread use of ellipses to indicate any pause in a statement?

Just curious.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> CA do you believe that language evolves swiftly, from generation to generation, as a natural process, or are you of the opinion that language is degraded and diluted when meanings are changed or expanded, as with the internet's widespread use of ellipses to indicate any pause in a statement?
> 
> Just curious.


Good question.

I believe communication on the internet has evolved into a tendency to create a physical presence with words, by introducing things like ellipses, emoticons, exclamations, asterisks, and question marks. Words also continue to be expressed in slang in order to give the reader a sense of reality and human interaction. I try to avoid writing in this manner.

Its as if the structure of words we send in to cyberspace, forms an avitar that's representatative of ourselves as unique individuals. I mentioned something along these lines sometime back.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

On the whole, would you say that it's beneficial for us to be expressing ourselves in new and different ways (examining language as a whole, rather than just the internet) or deleterious to the accuracy of communication? Your original comment about the ellipses just got me wondering... maybe this is too much of a tangent, even for PT.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> On the whole, would you say that it's beneficial for us to be expressing ourselves in new and different ways (examining language as a whole, rather than just the internet) or deleterious to the accuracy of communication? Your original comment about the ellipses just got me wondering... maybe this is too much of a tangent, even for PT.


I would say that the questions you bring up are very relevent to a site that depends on written communication among it's members. Especially given the randomness and swiftness of the subject matter.

As far as creating a language, like a cybernese, will depend on what direction a new generation of writers value in communication. I happen to enjoy the cadence, poetry, and imagery that can be created with words. And as old fashioned as language can become, I would hope that the efficiency of cybernese will allow the patience for those who still enjoy writing and sharing with all of the beauty and indulgence enjoyed in language.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Also very habit forming....I do it all the time . The internet made me do it .


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I must admit that ellipses are my grammatical Achilles heel. That and comma splices, at least.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm constantly editing my comma positions, because I'm not sure where they're supposed to be.................................^? 

I also avoid using a bunch of !!!!!, and ????. For example:

"Are you serious????". Or, "That's awesome!!!!"


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I'm costantly editing my comma positions, because I'm not sure where they're supposed to be.................................^?
> 
> I also avoid using a bunch of !!!!!, and ????. For example:
> 
> "Are you serious????". Or, "That's awesome!!!!"


I was going to make a "customers to avoid" post the other day about that exact subject but forgot. My wife got an email from a potential customer that after every sentence used at least three exclamation marks. The whole thing apparently went south very quickly. Woman wanted my wife to perform at a birthday party on very short notice and had virtually no budget. 

When she told me about it, I explained that she should immediately ignore any customer if they use multiple punctuation marks of any kind at any point in time in any written form.

Don't be a multiple punctuator. !!!


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Yes, OK, but here is the reason we are having this discussion, because as one member described it recently, we are all here chatting on barstools, informally, and we have to come up with ways to communicate sarcasm and irony and gleeful winks and nods.

It is easy to signify all those types of things face-to-face, with smirks, intonation, and literal winks and nods.

Now consider, we here, come from all over the globe, some are retired retail owners, some middled aged OMS, and even a few neewbie sponge bitches. How do we convey all of the subtle meaning and regional expressions here on a message board?

With multiple !!! and prolific use of … and those godawful emoticons that are truly dumb but are the easiest way to express the genuine feeling that would otherwise be lost in a sterile cyber post.

We kleer?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Yes, OK, but here is the reason we are having this discussion, because as one member described it recently, we are all here chatting on barstools, informally, and we have to come up with ways to communicate sarcasm and irony and gleeful winks and nods.
> 
> It is easy to signify all those types of things face-to-face, with smirks, intonation, and literal winks and nods.
> 
> ...


Go advanced and fall in love with the smileys. I don't think I've ever used them prior to joining this forum.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

A 1 19 nb11zzqszz1


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Painter-Aaron said:


> A 1 19 nb11zzqszz1


Now THATS advanced.

Now thats advanced!!!

Now, _thats_ advanced...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Painter-Aaron said:


> A 1 19 nb11zzqszz1


??Say wha.....?!?!?!?!?!?!

maybe if you wuz klearer . . . . . . 

oh nevermind !!!!!! 

@Painter-Aaron

<BHFG> <wink> <wink> <nudge-nudge>


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

what is god's name are you all talking about???????????????????:blink::blink::blink::blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> what is god's name are you all talking about???????????????????:blink::blink::blink::blink:


when you find out, please interpret for me :thumbsup:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> Yes, OK, but here is the reason we are having this discussion, because as one member described it recently, we are all here chatting on barstools, informally, and we have to come up with ways to communicate sarcasm and irony and gleeful winks and nods.
> 
> It is easy to signify all those types of things face-to-face, with smirks, intonation, and literal winks and nods.
> 
> ...


Nicest thing I've been called all week! 

The only time I multiple punctuate is in cases where I'm both asking a question and conveying my enthusiasm. In such sentences, I've been known to use "!?".

I use a fair amount of the smiley's; they help convey my sarcasm sometimes, which can be a tad on the dry side- it needs the help, in text form. I wish CA used more, might make some of his statements less enigmatic.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Woodford said:


> Nicest thing I've been called all week!
> 
> The only time I multiple punctuate is in cases where I'm both asking a question and conveying my enthusiasm. In such sentences, I've been known to use "!?".
> 
> I use a fair amount of the smiley's; they help convey my sarcasm sometimes, which can be a tad on the dry side- it needs the help, in text form. I wish CA used more, might make some of his statements less enigmatic.


Do we need to resurrect the interobang!?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> Do we need to resurrect the interobang!?


Interesting. I'd forgotten about that one. Haven't seen one in years.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> Do we need to resurrect the interobang!?


Never knew that was called that, and was honestly pretty terrified to google it.

Shame the alt code for it doesn't seem to work for me.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Woodford said:


> Never knew that was called that, and was honestly pretty terrified to google it.
> 
> Shame the alt code for it doesn't seem to work for me.


What are you using: iPhone, tablet, laptop? It looks as if it not supported in some fonts either.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Gough said:


> Do we need to resurrect the *interobang!*?





Woodford said:


> Never knew that was called that, and was *honestly pretty terrified to google it.*


Sadly, the google image results are even more lame than "heteroshag."

Hard to shock on the web in this late stage in history.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> What are you using: iPhone, tablet, laptop? It looks as if it not supported in some fonts either.


Laptop running Windows 7, not sure why it wouldn't work but I don't really have the motivation to look into it too much. The alt code Wikipedia suggests gives me "=" instead.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I liked when Steve Richards would include things like *cough*, or *nervous smile*, when describing an emotion or physical act. I kind of stole it from him, and use it occasionally.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I liked when Steve Richards would include things like *cough*, or *nervous smile*, when describing an emotion or physical act. I kind of stole it from him, and use it occasionally.


I miss SR. Hope he's enjoying being productive.  I'm not.  Being productive that is. Didn't have any interior lined up for today and we got poured on last night and nothing's drying out.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I liked when Steve Richards would include things like *cough*, or *nervous smile*, when describing an emotion or physical act. I kind of stole it from him, and use it occasionally.


I do that frequently via live text chat like IRC or Skype, but for some reason I just don't feel right putting into forums most of the time. Since I can type almost as fast as I think (not saying much) maybe it's to do with the pacing of instant messaging.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Do we need to resurrect the interobang!?


thanks for the reminder, It will be my new screen name










But you can refer to me as:

The Paperhanger formally known as daArch


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

How come quality threads like this never make the newsletter?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Woodford said:


> How come quality threads like this never make the newsletter?


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## harleyjoe (Jun 20, 2015)

........................how's this? the rest of my sentence.sorry to bring up such a studious subject. i did think I joined a painting forum though. not sure though.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

harleyjoe said:


> ........................how's this? the rest of my sentence.sorry to bring up such a studious subject. i did think I joined a painting forum though. not sure though.


Hang in there Joe, it's a bumpy ride, but you'll get used to it, and eventually learn when to lean into the corners and when to bail. :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

harleyjoe said:


> ........................how's this? the rest of my sentence.sorry to bring up such a studious subject. i did think I joined a painting forum though. not sure though.


The beauty of PT is the eclectic nature of the painter/wall paper guy, having the ability to contemplate, with vast interest and understanding, the minutia that slips below the consciousness of others. 

*Scootching in my Lazy Boy, prepared to grab another ice cold beer out of the cooler still holding ice from my daughter's Saturday graduation party*


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

harleyjoe said:


> ........................how's this? the rest of my sentence.sorry to bring up such a studious subject. i did think I joined a painting forum though. not sure though.


You're fine, harleyjoe. Wanna feel better?

Look what they (me) are doing to this poor enigmatic soul:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/what-sequence-works-you-44930/


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I paint paint said:


> You're fine, harleyjoe. Wanna feel better?
> 
> Look what they (me) are doing to this poor enigmatic soul:
> 
> http://www.painttalk.com/f2/what-sequence-works-you-44930/


YUP, always makes one feel like they are not a pariah when they stand on the sidewalk and WATCH a tar and feathering and not be the recipient of one. :thumbsup: :thumbup:


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## harleyjoe (Jun 20, 2015)

daArch said:


> YUP, always makes one feel like they are not a pariah when they stand on the sidewalk and WATCH a tar and feathering and not be the recipient of one. :thumbsup: :thumbup:


ahh....now I get it. well I can be just as much a ball buster as the rest of them just ask my soon to wife( 2 weeks away).and yes for the 2nd time(the marriage that is)......glad to be here and also glad to be able to bounce ideas off professionals.....that is what you're calling yourselves correct......thanks.


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## harleyjoe (Jun 20, 2015)

daArch said:


> Hang in there Joe, it's a bumpy ride, but you'll get used to it, and eventually learn when to lean into the corners and when to bail. :thumbsup:


no I don't bail, I just "cut in the" corners:blink:


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

This thread got torn apart worse than that brush did in post #1.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

harleyjoe said:


> ahh....now I get it. well I can be just as much a ball buster as the rest of them just ask my soon to wife( 2 weeks away).and yes for the 2nd time(the marriage that is)......glad to be here and also glad to be able to bounce ideas off professionals.....that is what you're calling yourselves correct......thanks.


That designation is up for debate, according to CAPainter at least.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

harleyjoe said:


> ahh....now I get it. well I can be just as much a ball buster as the rest of them just ask my soon to wife( 2 weeks away).and yes for the 2nd time(the marriage that is)......glad to be here and also glad to be able to bounce ideas off professionals.....that is what you're calling yourselves correct......thanks.


you marrying the same woman? again?


I have to admit, I did that:blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> you marrying the same woman? again?
> 
> 
> I have to admit, I did that:blink:


but did SHE marry the same man again ? To your credit, I think not.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

daArch said:


> but did SHE marry the same man again ? To your credit, I think not.


Whoa. Tell us what he was like before, Arch.

It's the weekend. We got time.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm glad I could make a thread about a tool malfunction so you guys could talk about whatever it is you guys are talking about


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm glad I could make a thread about a *tool malfunction* so you guys could talk about whatever it is you guys are talking about


All I saw was operator error…


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## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

TJ Paint said:


> Proform, 3.5 in. Oval. Couple years old, used on a couple projects.
> 
> This happened today when using a wire brush to clean dried bullseye 123 from the bristles...


Hey this stuff happens. I know they had some issues before but now they put out 2 of the top brush's out there.

I don't care were a brush is made or assembled as long as it helps me make paint dance.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Surreal Painting said:


> Hey this stuff happens. I know they had some issues before but now they put out 2 of the top brush's out there.
> 
> I don't care were a brush is made or assembled as long as it helps me make paint dance.


Their world hq is 30 miles from my place, (via MN, I was born and raised in MN). I can tell you're a fanboy. That's cool. I wanted to be, but I don't really trust them anymore.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I paint paint said:


> Whoa. Tell us what he was like before, Arch.
> 
> It's the weekend. We got time.


I didn't know chrisn back then, but he has been quite open about his previous self. I never feel I should relate other people's battles, so I'll let him fill you in, if he chooses.

From what he has told us, I was just assuming he is an easier person to live with now than he was in the past.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Yeah, yeah. Mine was a good natured prompt.

Looking for humor, not dirt.


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## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

TJ Paint said:


> Their world hq is 30 miles from my place, (via MN, I was born and raised in MN). I can tell you're a fanboy. That's cool. I wanted to be, but I don't really trust them anymore.


Just a fan of what works :thumbup: Have a couple brands I really dig. Some for different situations. 

I live in MN myself...not sure why I'm still here these winters are harsh.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> I didn't know chrisn back then, but he has been quite open about his previous self. I never feel I should relate other people's battles, so I'll let him fill you in, if he chooses.
> 
> From what he has told us, I was just assuming he is an easier person to live with now than he was in the past.


Actually the change came AFTER the second time around so ,yes, she got the same me and I got the same her
I wish I knew why she wanted the divorce in the first place but that will remain undisclosed forever I guess


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm glad I could make a thread about a tool malfunction so you guys could talk about whatever it is you guys are talking about


You still love us, right TJ?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> That designation is up for debate, according to CAPainter at least.


Now whose being enigmatic!?!:blink:...:jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

::gun_bandana:.................................................:blink:

Hey look!!!!! The ellipses are like bullets!!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Now whose being enigmatic!?!:blink:...:jester:


I clearly recall you stating you don't perceive painters as professionals :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I clearly recall you stating you don't perceive painters as professionals :thumbsup:


You're right. 

In terms of a title, a "Professional" seems to me to be reserved for a lawyer, corporate business person, consultant, etc. Now a professional painter may describe the skill level of a painter but not necessarily his status. It's the difference between a noun and an adjective. 

I'm prepared for Gough to crush me on this one. He's like my internet professor, and I hate disappointing him.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally I'd consider the meaning behind the "professional" designation would be that whatever you're doing is your primary vocation. A professional athlete is anyone who pays the bills via their athletics, eg painters on their ladders (jesting). A professional lawyer is one who pays the bills by practicing law (PT armchair lawyering does not count, unfortunately).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> Personally I'd consider the meaning behind the "professional" designation would be that whatever you're doing is your primary vocation. A professional athlete is anyone who pays the bills via their athletics, eg painters on their ladders (jesting). A professional lawyer is one who pays the bills by practicing law (PT armchair lawyering does not count, unfortunately).



I understand that. But how would you describe the guy behind the deli counter? A professional sandwich maker? 

I still believe the description of a "professional" is reserved for those who have earned that title via law and business schools, or other learning institutions that produce specialized vocations.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> You're right.
> 
> In terms of a title, a "Professional" seems to me to be reserved for a lawyer, corporate business person, consultant, etc. Now a professional painter may describe the skill level of a painter but not necessarily his status. It's the difference between a noun and an adjective.
> 
> I'm prepared for Gough to crush me on this one. He's like my internet professor, and I hate disappointing him.


CA,

It isn't just you that reserves the title of professional for occupations such as lawyer and physician. Sociologists have spent many decades compiling information and using a variety of measuring tools with which to form a hierarchy of occupations based upon social prestige, income, perceived social merit, etc.

Forgive me, I used to study this stuff.

Here's an article that somewhat explains the thought process behind formulating such an occupational list and the list itself (just one of many available). Note that the occupation of house painter falls pretty far down the list.


http://what-when-how.com/sociology/occupational-prestige/


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I feel we already have structures in place for recognizing those with significant educational achievement; doctor for those with doctorates, and appropriate suffixes for those with other higher learning degrees. It seems like a bastardization of the word "professional" to tack on extra meaning to it. By the very definition of a word (having to do with a profession or vocation, or one who engages in an activity as a profession rather than a hobby or pastime) it shouldn't have any higher meaning. Perhaps we're at the cusp of that illusive moment when a word takes on a new meaning; as a bit of a word purist (read: snob) my instinct is to fight that tooth and nail, though the process is admittedly an interesting and unstoppable one.

Just further evidence that language is never immutable.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I feel we already have structures in place for recognizing those with significant educational achievement; doctor for those with doctorates, and appropriate suffixes for those with other higher learning degrees. It seems like a bastardization of the word "professional" to tack on extra meaning to it. By the very definition of a word (having to do with a profession or vocation, or one who engages in an activity as a profession rather than a hobby or pastime) it shouldn't have any higher meaning. Perhaps we're at the cusp of that illusive moment when a word takes on a new meaning; as a bit of a word purist (read: snob) my instinct is to fight that tooth and nail, though the process is admittedly an interesting and unstoppable one.
> 
> Just further evidence that language is never immutable.


I believe the term "Professional" has been used to describe a specialized vocation for as long as I can remember. 

The only threat I see to language, is the tendency to dumb it down in order to meet the politically correct agenda of an even playing field, regardless of merit.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

'Professional athlete' would be the phrase I'd use to refute that idea. We here that term bandied about constantly, and it's one of the least educated or specialized vocations in existence.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

We may only have as much prestige as a grocery clerk, but at least we have more prestige than a saw sharpener!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> 'Professional athlete' would be the phrase I'd use to refute that idea. We here that term bandied about constantly, and it's one of the least educated or specialized vocations in existence.



I believe in that circumstance, the title of professional athlete is used to differentiate those athletes who can negotiate a monetary contract, and those who are prohibited. Where as in contrast, the deli guy or the painter doesn't have those restrictions in order to earn a living. And by default, the contracts that these pro athletes secure for themselves, gives them the prestige to call themselves professionals. IMO


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I would also argue that the title of professional, as it relates to a specialized vocation, doesn't necessarily mean you're a better individual than someone with less prestige. 

After all, prestige is image, and image is just an illusion in the grand scheme of things, despite the butt loads of money that can be associated with it.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Interesting perspectives. I was talking with a socialist the other day who believes everything should be free for everyone, regardless of what you do; also thinks everyone deserves to live the same way no matter how much they'd invested into education or how strenuous their job is. It's an interesting perspective, but not one that I think I could ever swallow. I didn't finish my college education and I'm an unskilled worker by definition; I think my work is important and valuable, but I don't think I deserve to live like a sultan for it. My 'friend' disagrees.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I would also argue that the title of professional, as it relates to a specialized vocation, doesn't necessarily mean you're a better individual than someone with less prestige.
> 
> After all, prestige is image, and image is just an illusion in the grand scheme of things, despite the butt loads of money that can be associated with it.


It is interesting to me how people define what makes an occupation "more professional" than another. I believe many people focus on the income a given occupation can provide, while others focus on the level of credentials (e.g. degree from an accredited educational institution) necessary to enter an occupation.

As a case in point that shows how varied an occupation's "prestige" can be interpreted, look at a garbage man vs. a physician. In terms of income and social status, the two could not be farther apart. However, in terms of social utility, I would argue that a garbage man is just as important to the needs of society as a physician. 

I guess all I'm trying to convey is that the definition of "professional" varies according to how one wishes to view it. Income level, educational level, the degree of social access to a given occupation, the level of quality performed, the perceived social importance of an occupation, and so on and so forth, all affect the definition. It depends upon vantage point, or the degree to which how many variables are considered.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> Interesting perspectives. I was talking with a socialist the other day who believes everything should be free for everyone, regardless of what you do; also thinks everyone deserves to live the same way no matter how much they'd invested into education or how strenuous their job is. It's an interesting perspective, but not one that I think I could ever swallow. I didn't finish my college education and I'm an unskilled worker by definition; I think my work is important and valuable, but I don't think I deserve to live like a sultan for it. My 'friend' disagrees.


It appears your sociologist friend subscribes to Carl Marx's manifesto.

Edit: I didn't catch socialist. Never mind. I'm positive he's a subscriber.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Woodford said:


> Interesting perspectives. I was talking with a socialist the other day who believes everything should be free for everyone, regardless of what you do; also thinks everyone deserves to live the same way no matter how much they'd invested into education or how strenuous their job is. It's an interesting perspective, but not one that I think I could ever swallow. I didn't finish my college education and I'm an unskilled worker by definition; I think my work is important and valuable, but I don't think I deserve to live like a sultan for it. My 'friend' disagrees.


Perhaps suggest to your friend to read Animal Farm by George Orwell. It is short and simple enough to possibly give him some "enlightenment" as to the error of his ways (in my opinion).


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Interesting perspectives. *I was talking with a socialist the other day who believes everything should be free for everyone, regardless of what you do; also thinks everyone deserves to live the same way no matter how much they'd invested into education or how strenuous their job is.* It's an interesting perspective, but not one that I think I could ever swallow. I didn't finish my college education and I'm an unskilled worker by definition; I think my work is important and valuable, but I don't think I deserve to live like a sultan for it. My 'friend' disagrees.


This person is an actual human being, or someone you created for the sake of this argument?

Just curious. Happy either way.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I certainly believe we tend to define ourselves by our occupations. Unfortunately, not all of us become pilots or physicians, and therefore, find ourselves embedded in the insecurities that help form the social stratus. 

So rather than compete with those that have achieved a certain degree of prestige beyond my own, I find solace in admiring their own accomplishments, no matter how much of an a hole they may be. It helps eliminate my own insecurities.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Real person, I'm afraid. I use the term 'friend' loosely; more of a friend of a friend, and frankly think he's a bit insane.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> It appears your sociologist friend subscribes to *Carl *Marx's manifesto.
> 
> Edit: I didn't catch socialist. Never mind. I'm positive he's a subscriber.


:no:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> :no:


Help me here! Carol Marks?!??...


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Karol


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Help me here! Carol Marks?!??...


Karl Marx, not Carl.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

See, Semipro is the _real_ stickler.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> See, Semipro is the _real_ stickler.


Yea, he's like Gough's subsitute. We should be honored to have such scholars on board. Here, here's a smiley face for all you enigma haters And I'll also pin up a jokey face so you won't think I'm being mean:jester:. 

It's all about me after all. Isn't it?!


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Yea, he's like Gough's subsitute. We should be honored to have such scholars on board. Here, here's a smiley face for all you enigma haters And I'll also pin up a jokey face so you won't think I'm being mean:jester:.
> 
> It's all about me after all. Isn't it?!


Comparing me to Gough is like comparing country fried steak to filet mignon.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Comparing me to Gough is like comparing country fried steak to filet mignon.


But I like both.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Tried to beat the heat this morning. Did I miss anything?

CA, I know we've had the "professional" discussion before, I'd find it if the Search function were worth anything.

I think the distinction depends on the use. As an adjective, I think "professional" 
merely means something done for money, as opposed to "amateur". Used as a noun, I think it applies to more learned vocations as you mentioned above. Some definitions of "vocation" are merely, "a trade or profession". This means that you can be a professional painter and not be a professional...and I'm still OK with that.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

'Career'
The word comes up from time to time at work, and whatever I kinda my eyes roll into the back of my head a bit. Painters, talking about their career. It just doesn't, I don't know seem appropriate to me. I have a job. I paint stuff, career just doesn't seem to fit. Now as far as painting is a career, I done some things. If it is a career I've had one and pretty impressive even. But comparatively to painters? Which kinda just- you know- I'm a really tall midget? Great and WTF
Haha


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Tried to beat the heat this morning. Did I miss anything?
> 
> CA, I know we've had the "professional" discussion before, I'd find it if the Search function were worth anything.
> 
> ...


I also believe you can conduct yourself in a professional manner, but not necessarily be a professional. 

As you know Gough, I've always been less than receptive to the heady titles and references painters place on themselves and their "clients". *eye roll*' But I'm also aware that if one is to be successful in business, one has to conduct themselves in a professional manner. Even if it means characterizing themself as a "professional".


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I also believe you can conduct yourself in a professional manner, but not necessarily be a professional.
> 
> As you know Gough, I've always been less than receptive to the heady titles and references painters place on themselves and their "clients". *eye roll*' But I'm also aware that if one is to be successful in business, one has to conduct themselves in a professional manner. Even if it means characterizing themself as a "professional".


There is also the notion of how language can change perception. For example, I think that can have an impact on the client v. customer relationship.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

CA, im curious how then do classify painters or other tradesmen/women? 
If they work in the same trade for decades, refining their skills, developing new techniques, solving problems, managing crews and jobs, etc. 
It is not a glamorous job, it doesn't take a degree but not everyone can do it.
To perform at a high level and deliver a quality product takes something more then an amateur. A craftsman, maybe?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PRC said:


> CA, im curious how then do classify painters or other tradesmen/women?
> If they work in the same trade for decades, refining their skills, developing new techniques, solving problems, managing crews and jobs, etc.
> It is not a glamorous job, it doesn't take a degree but not everyone can do it.
> To perform at a high level and deliver a quality product takes something more then an amateur. A craftsman, maybe?


Typically, tradesmen, at the top tier, are referred to as Journeymen, or Master Craftsmen, and with no doubt, conduct themselves professionally. But unless they are consulting at a corporate level, they are not "Professionals" in the business sense of the word. In my opinion.

I would add that this is just a discussion based on opinions, and I'm not offering any measurable qualifications. However, in the AIA (American Institute of Architects) A201 General Conditions for contracts in construction, paragraph 3.2.2 in reference to the "Contractor", states that a contractor performing a pre construction site inspection, will not act in the capacity of a "professional" as in architect or engineer.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

We all are lucky in that we deal with all professions and get to see their personal/family lives. We begin to realize that WAY too much social value and pressure is erroneously placed on income and occupation.

Many years ago son Jake and I went with another father and his two children to Providence RI. As we passed under a pedestrian overpass that was under construction (this was winter time) the other father said, "see kids, if you don't get a college education you'll end up like those guys"

I was just NOT impressed in the value system he was trying to instill. 

One of the guys I worked with in '67 was happiest digging holes and he was salt of the earth. Honest, dependable, content, good father (his son worked with us also, so I can judge that)

Some of the most miserable sons of bitches I've met are highfalutin, highly educated, overpaid, lying, thieving, asshole lawyers. 

Does prestige buy you happiness, good family, health, etc ???

What IS important?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> We all are lucky in that we deal with all professions and get to see their personal/family lives. We begin to realize that WAY too much social value and pressure is erroneously placed on income and occupation.
> 
> Many years ago son Jake and I went with another father and his two children to Providence RI. As we passed under a pedestrian overpass that was under construction (this was winter time) the other father said, "see kids, if you don't get a college education you'll end up like those guys"
> 
> ...


What's important, is what gives someone purpose. It's not for me to criticize their pursuit. And If a person persues an occupation that holds them in a higher esteem as deemed by our societal importance, etiquette, expectations, and structure, than so be it. They've likely earned it through difficult study, unlike my own vocation.

And frankly, I've encountered more A holes at the blue collar social tier, then from any engineer, physician, or others at the professional level. And a lot of that has to do with insecurity, in my opinion.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Aholes and good guys/gals come in all shapes, colours, pursuits and sizes. I've always laughed when people try categorizing a particular 'niche' of people in some regard and generally consider it to be a somewhat ignorant personality trait.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Aholes and good guys/gals come in all shapes, colours, pursuits and sizes. I've always laughed when people try categorizing a particular 'niche' of people in some regard and generally consider it to be a somewhat ignorant personality trait.


I'm probably more prejudice about my own social demographic because that's who I spend most of my time with. And I agree, prejudice is ignorant when used to categorize and alienate people.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> What's important, is what gives someone purpose. It's not for me to criticize their pursuit. And If a person persues an occupation that holds them in a higher esteem as deemed by our societal importance, etiquette, expectations, and structure, than so be it. They've likely earned it through difficult study, unlike my own vocation.
> 
> And frankly, I've encountered more A holes at the blue collar social tier, then from any engineer, physician, or others at the professional level. And a lot of that has to do with insecurity, in my opinion.


What is MOST important is how one feels about themselves and how they treat others as a result of that. 

There's no law or correlation that says one's profession defines one's character - as (wild)Bill implied . 

I have noticed that those who place an extremely high importance on achieving wealth, power, and/or prestige usually portends a lacking in one's self worth. 

But who am I to judge, I'm just a lowly retired paperhanger sitting mindlessly pontificating on the internet to faceless painters on a rainy Sunday morning.

jeeeshes cripes archibald, get a farking life


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> What is MOST important is how one feels about themselves and how they treat others as a result of that. In other words, having a purpose and how they want to conduct themselves in pursuit of that purpose.
> 
> There's no law or correlation that says one's profession defines one's character - as (wild)Bill implied . Maybe not, but so many of us do. And society has become accustomed to that. Which sets the precedence for segregation and scrutiny in the occupational and social stratus. More of us need hobbies.
> 
> ...


That's what I like about you Bill, you provoke thought and interesting discussion.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think what it boils down to, is most of us resent the discipline required to achieve success and prestige at the levels prescribed by societal standards. And as a result, we resent those that do.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I think what it boils down to, is most of us resent the discipline required to achieve success and prestige at the levels prescribed by societal standards. And as a result, we resent those that do.


What is success? Is it achieving prestige, status, and material value as defined by others? Or is it being happy, or at least content, by the achievements which satisfy your own unique sense of self?

And does that resentment that you speak of, is it resentment for simply being told to be an indistinguishable cog in the machinery of society? Or is it from not being valued for seeking and reaching those goals that are self satisfying ?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> What is success? Is it achieving prestige, status, and material value as defined by others? Or is it being happy, or at least content, by the achievements which satisfy your own unique sense of self?
> 
> Success is accomplishing what one has set out to do in order to fulfill their purpose. Some levels of success require more discipline and commitment than others, and typically offer more prestige as a reward for all of the hard work.
> 
> ...


Indistinguishable cog? Isn't that what the point of everyone who earns a buck being referred to as a "professional" is all about? 

And the resentment has nothing to do with not being valued, but more to do with being too damn lazy and undisciplined to ever reach an individual's true potential.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

John, I guess this discussion is going beyond my personal experience. Not resenting people simply for being driven to "succeed" , I guess I don't know where it comes from in those who feel it. 

I do take umbrage and offense at people who climb to the top on the bodies they have cut down. But that's more of an ethical issue than feeling bitter toward or begrudging someone who has . . . . well, who has won multiple super bowls or stanley cups, such as those who resent Tom Brady or Jonathan Toews.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Indistinguishable cog? Isn't that what the point of everyone who earns a buck being referred to as a "professional" is all about?
> 
> And the resentment has nothing to do with not being valued, but more to do with being too damn lazy and undisciplined to ever reach an individual's true potential.


Classic "under-achievers syndrome" is what I would call it. But as daArch has alluded to, how do you define success? Is success driving the latest model BMW and having title to a McMansion? I know those people and they live under the constant pressure of having to impress everyone of just how successful they are. Never mind that they can't pay out of pocket to repaint the exterior of their McMansion two years after it was built.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

My broken down proform is a magic brush that ushered into the forum a thirst for wisdom, existential brooding, and general malarkey. 

Now that you guys understand the powers that this brush has, let's start the bidding at $75.

Aaaaand go!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I will say that personally, I think a social ranking by job is somewhat of a necessary evil, as it were, in the same way that capitalism is a necessary evil. Both have the same upside- people are motivated to do the harder jobs with higher early investments, to fill those roles that are critical for society and can't be done by anyone who doesn't have the training, and the same downside- people who either aren't motivated or don't have the innate ability to learn or the opportunities may think less of themselves because of it.

If there was no benefit to investing your time and money into more advanced and challenging fields, people wouldn't do it. Thus, we have money and social status as a driving force behind our motivations. It's a self defense mechanism to keep societies functioning. Perhaps we could rise above it some day; for now, I think it's necessary and important, although probably not "good" or tasteful.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I will say that personally, I think a social ranking by job is somewhat of a necessary evil, as it were, in the same way that capitalism is a necessary evil. Both have the same upside- people are motivated to do the harder jobs with higher early investments, to fill those roles that are critical for society and can't be done by anyone who doesn't have the training, and the same downside- people who either aren't motivated or don't have the innate ability to learn or the opportunities may think less of themselves because of it.
> 
> If there was no benefit to investing your time and money into more advanced and challenging fields, people wouldn't do it. Thus, we have money and social status as a driving force behind our motivations. It's a self defense mechanism to keep societies functioning. Perhaps we could rise above it some day; for now, I think it's necessary and important, although probably not "good" or tasteful.


The fact is, we are not all alike. Strength, intelligence, looks, and intuition will vary from one individual to another, no matter how even we try to make the playing field. It's dangerous for a progressive society to limit the potential of those who have the innate ability, or aptitude and discipline, to aspire to greater things, in the interest of coddling the sensibilities of those who either can't or won't. 

Unfortunately, society expends a lot of time and energy enabling those who either can't, or simply won't put forth the effort typically required to reach higher positions in the work force, or society in general. Consequently, commercialism allows for the common man to believe he can compete materially with the elite, by encouraging him to buy and consume the luxuries traditionally reserved for those whose financial position supports that life style with little effort. And if there is any doubt about this, please refer to the recent housing debacle and economic collapse.

Ethics really has nothing to do with the social structure as much as common sense does.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Woodford said:


> ... we have money and social status as a driving force behind our motivations...


Although this may be true for a good portion of society, it isn't for all. I would like to say I have a lot of drive, more than most. But not to wave my money (or lack thereof) around. We live well below our means. Less than half gets spent. We're hopeful that we'll actually be able to have some time with the kids before we r in the nursing home.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

To me it sounds like a lot of folks here are projecting their own drives, values, motivations (or lack thereof) on others

Personally, I feel that all needed roles in society can, will, and should be filled by people who do those tasks for the joy they find in them. I feel that these materialistic and popularity motivating factors actually are a detriment to society's well being. Shouldn't a doctor be doctoring for his/her love of medicine and the chance to heal? Rather than the money and the prestige?

I point to those scumbags that killed and horribly injured so many with their meningitis tainted steroids from the New England Compounding Center . Their love of status and money created an attitude that cared more about profit than proper sterile manufacturing. And yes, having worked for the Caddens, I can assure you of their materialistic motivators.

There are innumerable instances where corporate profits overrule public safety. Takata being the latest. Another recent one was Jeep and its quick and dirty "fix" to protect the gas tanks. Hell, even the Supreme Court just ruled corporate profits are more important than mercury and other toxins being spewed into the air we breathe. 

No, money and prestige are NOT necessary motivators to have important jobs done correctly.

And on the other side of the coin, two of our most important professions in the world are teachers and farmers. Where do they rank on the pay and prestige scales?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

bryceraisanen said:


> Although this may be true for a good portion of society, it isn't for all. I would like to say I have a lot of drive, more than most. But not to wave my money (or lack thereof) around. We live well below our means. Less than half gets spent. We're hopeful that we'll actually be able to have some time with the kids before we r in the nursing home.


Money as a motivator doesn't mean money to wave in people's faces or buy fast cars or stupid houses. Even if it's just to spend time with your children. And yah, no two individuals are alike, but between the two it motivates _enough_ people to get the jobs done.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> To me it sounds like a lot of folks here are projecting their own drives, values, motivations (or lack thereof) on others
> 
> Personally, I feel that all needed roles in society can, will, and should be filled by people who do those tasks for the joy they find in them. I feel that these materialistic and popularity motivating factors actually are a detriment to society's well being. Shouldn't a doctor be doctoring for his/her love of medicine and the chance to heal? Rather than the money and the prestige?
> 
> ...


Earlier, you said there should be no correlation between one's character and their profession. Now you are advocating one have a selfless character that correlates exactly with their profession. As if the virtues of society depends solely on altruism and being selfless. A little too Utopioush for me.

And to drift further from prestige, which drifted from the debate of a "professional", and then from the use of punctuations, which drifted from a discussion of a broken brush, how about the question of selfishness and when is it too little and when is it too much.?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> To me it sounds like a lot of folks here are projecting their own drives, values, motivations (or lack thereof) on others
> 
> Personally, I feel that all needed roles in society can, will, and should be filled by people who do those tasks for the joy they find in them. I feel that these materialistic and popularity motivating factors actually are a detriment to society's well being. Shouldn't a doctor be doctoring for his/her love of medicine and the chance to heal? Rather than the money and the prestige?
> 
> ...


Bill, you've got a very optimistic view of the world and I admire that. I'd love to think that people would just fill the roles they enjoyed, and that the world would work itself out from there; however, I just don't think that's true. For one thing, some people just aren't cut out for the jobs they enjoy. I'd love to be an author full time, but my characters are shallow and my dialogue is flat. That's just the way it is. Sometimes, we just don't get what we wanted. If everyone doing what they enjoyed was a viable way to determine job choice, then capitalism really would be outdated and socialism would make vastly more sense.

As far as profits causing problems... I think you're kind of blaming the wrong thing. To use a maybe-too-familiar comparison, it's like blaming pencils for typos. Money as a motivator is not as evil as people paint it to be. It means stability for our loved ones and the ability to pursue whatever it is that makes us happy. It's when we focus on it to the detriment of everything else that it's a problem. Doing anything in excess is a problem, though.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Earlier, you said there should be no correlation between one's character and their profession. Now you are advocating one have a selfless character that correlates exactly with their profession. As if the virtues of society depends solely on altruism and being selfless. A little too Utopioush for me.
> 
> And to drift further from prestige, which drifted from the debate of a "professional", and then from the use of punctuations, which drifted from a discussion of a broken brush, how about the question of selfishness and when is it too little and when is it too much.?


John, I think you are once more shape shifting my words. I think the passages that you are references went more like these:


> We begin to realize that WAY too much social value and pressure is erroneously placed on income and occupation.





> There's no law or correlation that says one's profession defines one's character - as (wild)Bill implied .


A doctor, IMO, SHOULD be a person who's character is one that is caring and who is intensely interested in the workings of the human body. HOWEVER, I think we all know at least a few doctors that appear more driven by the material rewards doctoring is purported to supply.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> Bill, you've got a very optimistic view of the world and I admire that. I'd love to think that people would just fill the roles they enjoyed, and that the world would work itself out from there; however, I just don't think that's true. For one thing, some people just aren't cut out for the jobs they enjoy. I'd love to be an author full time, but my characters are shallow and my dialogue is flat. That's just the way it is. Sometimes, we just don't get what we wanted. If everyone doing what they enjoyed was a viable way to determine job choice, then capitalism really would be outdated and socialism would make vastly more sense.
> 
> As far as profits causing problems... I think you're kind of blaming the wrong thing. To use a maybe-too-familiar comparison, it's like blaming pencils for typos. Money as a motivator is not as evil as people paint it to be. It means stability for our loved ones and the ability to pursue whatever it is that makes us happy. It's when we focus on it to the detriment of everything else that it's a problem. Doing anything in excess is a problem, though.


Drake,

Yes, I am not enthused with the USA's version of capitalism. I would love to see a system where prestige and monetary rewards are more based on the amount and quality of work done. I.e. a GREAT teacher who works hard and has fantastic results getting kids educated is held in higher esteem than, say, Donald Trump. 

And as to your own aspiration of being an author. You are capable of learning how to be one, it just takes hard work, dedication, drive, and motivation - and prolly a few hungry years. You have no physical or mental disabilities that precludes you from learning how to write.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> Drake,
> 
> Yes, I am not enthused with the USA's version of capitalism. I would love to see a system where prestige and monetary rewards are more based on the amount and quality of work done. I.e. a GREAT teacher who works hard and has fantastic results getting kids educated is held in higher esteem than, say, Donald Trump.
> 
> And as to your own aspiration of being an author. You are capable of learning how to be one, it just takes hard work, dedication, drive, and motivation - and prolly a few hungry years. You have no physical or mental disabilities that precludes you from learning how to write.


Who gets to judge a person's value to determine their prestige and rewards? I don't want that power, and I don't know that I want anyone else to have that power either. I'd much rather earn what I earn and be self-satisfied that even though I may not be doing my dream job, or making boatloads of money, or getting any recognition _I know_ I'm doing a good job and working hard and having a positive impact in my community.

While I agree that self-worth shouldn't be determined by one's job, one's actual monetary worth I believe should be. There's no one on earth qualified to make those kinds of decisions about us.

As for me being able to be an author; not necessarily. Regardless of what the media and 1st grade tells us, everyone is not born equal. People don't have equal talents or intelligence. Sometimes, no matter how hard you "try" or how hard you "work" you will never be a rocket scientist.

Good case as well; I'm also interested in being a surgeon. Not for the money; I'm happy living humbly and always have been. But I think the body is intriguing. I'd read college pathology textbooks when I was in 5th grade. But I have a genetic disorder that makes my hands shake. I could never be a surgeon- period.

Life isn't fair. That's how it goes, unfortunately.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Bill,

Sorry for adding the "should". I had a feeling that would cause concern.

Good post Woodford!

So, defining good character is much like defining the "best' religion. Most individuals have traits that contribute to good character. For example, discipline, selflessness, enthusiasm, drive, empathy, compassion, courage, etc.

We shouldn't disparage someone for having drive, just because others characterize compassion as good, if not a better, character trait.

Sometimes a selfish assertion to persevere, lends itself to the leadership qualities that selflessness may not. 

I was watching a documentary the other day on military dogs. The handlers needed to establish themselves as the Alpha dog in order for the subordinate dog to obey commands. Without this level of hiearchy established, the team would be rendered inaffective. The selfish motive of the handler to have the dog do what he or she wanted, was in effect, acting in a selfless manner for the greater good.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Bill,
> 
> Sorry for adding the "should". I had a feeling that would cause concern.
> 
> ...



No problem John about the wording. You always graciously accept clarification :thumbsup:


"defining good character is much like defining the 'best' religion". OH BOY, now we're getting deep :whistling2:

I'd love for society to veer away from judgements about "best" character and such. That's my whole point here. Too much societal judgement about which professions are "better" and subsequently rewarded with more money and prestige. 

"We shouldn't disparage someone for having drive, just because others characterize compassion as good, if not a better, character trait."

Are _drive_ and _compassion_ mutually exclusive traits in a person ? In my value system, drive is great, as is compassion. Both can serve the greater good and both can do dis-service to the greater good. 

Now as to the dog handlers, let's stay with exploring human relations. We're having enough trouble with that without getting into the canine societal hierarchy :whistling2: :thumbup:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Painters are such philosophers. And thread me-anderers if that word actually exists.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't believe I expressed prestige as being better, in terms of an individual's character, than commonality. However, I did claim that prestige typically requires more study, work, and discipline in order to receive the reward that that level of commitment deserves. 

And frankly, there should be a special designation for those that accomplish prestigious pursuits. For example, the designation of a "Professional" is deserving of an architect or engineer. Not so much for a painter. IMO.

But in a society where levels of prestige can be purchased on a credit card, or funded by irresponsible borrowing and lending, it's no wonder there's a tendency to water down the social hierarchy. After all, everyone wants to be the alpha dog, even though most aren't suited or equipped for that leadership position. Frankly, all it takes these days is a tattoo, a bad attitude, and a leased Cadillac Escalade to display prestige and the illusion of power.

We've leveled the playing field, and all we have to show for it is a debris field of lofty schemes and broken dreams.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I don't believe I expressed prestige as being better, in terms of an individual's character, than commonality. However, I did claim that prestige typically requires more study, work, and discipline in order to receive the reward that that level of commitment deserves.
> 
> And frankly, there should be a special designation for those that accomplish prestigious pursuits. For example, the designation of a "Professional" is deserving of an architect or engineer. Not so much for a painter. IMO.
> 
> ...


So much of that post is just wonderful imagery, simile, or whatever, I ain't gonna nit pick NUTHIN. :thumbup:

I'm gonna let the whole discussion stand on that :thumbsup:

And Bill, this painters philosophizing stuff is what I miss the most about the profession. Nuthin better than chewing on mind candy with a co-worker while mindlessly slapping on paint .


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> I'd love for society to veer away from judgements about "best" character and such. That's my whole point here. Too much societal judgement about which professions are "better" and subsequently rewarded with more money and prestige.


But if no one is passing judgment, how do we decide which teachers are good enough at teaching to get paid a bunch, and which of them suck and should stay poor?!? Facetiousness aside, is that a system you truly believe in over modern capitalism, or just one that you wish would work?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> But if no one is passing judgment, how do we decide which teachers are good enough at teaching to get paid a bunch, and which of them suck and should stay poor?!? Facetiousness aside, is that a system you truly believe in over modern capitalism, or just one that you wish would work?


Results decide the worth. I think it's not difficult to measure the effectiveness of a teacher.

System I truly believe in over modern capitalism? It's a system I personally would value more .

Or just one I wish word work? Well since I do not believe capitalism is working to it's peak potential . . . . . . 

I do not know of one economic/political system that has worked as intended. Humans have the ability to mess even utopia up. 

and remember,:
half of what I say is mostly B.S, 
the majority of the rest is expressed as speculation


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

daArch said:


> Results decide the worth. I think it's not difficult to measure the effectiveness of a teacher.
> 
> System I truly believe in over modern capitalism? It's a system I personally would value more .
> 
> ...



Arch, and others for that matter.

Do you guys feel/consider/think that we are operating in a capitalist system? A free market capitalist economic system?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bryceraisanen said:


> Arch, and others for that matter.
> 
> Do you guys feel/consider/think that we are operating in a capitalist system? A free market capitalist economic system?


In terms of how our free society influences economics, I would say yes.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> My broken down proform is a magic brush that ushered into the forum a thirst for wisdom, existential brooding, and general malarkey.
> 
> Now that you guys understand the powers that this brush has, let's start the bidding at $75.
> 
> Aaaaand go!


I'm gonna say that people keep talking about other stuff because they don't like the opening bid you've suggested. Not one hand being raised at this auction.

Man, painters are cheapskates. It's a magic brush!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

bryceraisanen said:


> Arch, and others for that matter.
> 
> Do you guys feel/consider/think that we are operating in a capitalist system? A free market capitalist economic system?


Depends on what you mean. If you're talking in absolutes, if the question is "are we 100% purely free market capitalists" then the answer is clearly a 'no.' There's checks in place to prevent monopolies and limits for safety and such, the government controls some markets, etc.

If the question is "are we more capitalist than anything else," then the answer is 'yes.' Rarely in the real world does anything match the absolute, but America's given capitalism perhaps a better shot than any other modern society so far.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bryceraisanen said:


> Arch, and others for that matter.
> 
> Do you guys feel/consider/think that we are operating in a capitalist system? A free market capitalist economic system?


Whose operation is totally dependent upon free will and laissez-faire economics with no manipulations by those who control monetary and political powers?

Absolutely not.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> Whose operation is totally dependent upon free will and laissez-faire economics with no manipulations by those who control monetary and political powers?
> 
> Absolutely not.


Bill, somehow I figured you'd answer it with the absolute definition in mind


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> Bill, somehow I figured you'd answer it with the absolute definition in mind


One has to clarify the questions around here 

You know, this place is rife with painters :thumbup: not obtuse dull sparkies


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I wonder what sparkies debate about on their forums.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> I wonder what sparkies debate about on their forums.


they blow a fuse when talk turns to the pluses and minuses of current events


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Woodford said:


> Depends on what you mean. If you're talking in absolutes, if the question is "are we 100% purely free market capitalists" then the answer is clearly a 'no.' There's checks in place to prevent monopolies and limits for safety and such, the government controls some markets, etc.
> 
> If the question is "are we more capitalist than anything else," then the answer is 'yes.' Rarely in the real world does anything match the absolute, but America's given capitalism perhaps a better shot than any other modern society so far.





daArch said:


> Whose operation is totally dependent upon free will and laissez-faire economics with no manipulations by those who control monetary and political powers?
> 
> Absolutely not.


Of course we all know there is an underground economy working out there that more closely resembles a free market capitalist system. 

Mind you, I'm neither endorsing it or claiming to participate in it. Just saying it's there.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> they blow a fuse when talk turns to the pluses and minuses of current events


Not this again...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> Not this again...



I now, it's shocking the overload of puns one can plug into a sparky sentence, but you shouldn't be too jolted when it happens, some of us are just wired that way, not grounded like others.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Because I'm a team player and believe in collaboration for the betterment of mankind, how about instead of the heady title of "Professional" to describe a common but perhaps experienced painter, we refer to them as "Accomplished"? That carries a degree of prestige don't you think?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd say "accomplished" is a word with an assumed specific antecedent. I'd say an accomplished painter would be one that painted The White House or a national landmark, or just one with significant specific accomplishments. Surely some many painters are accomplished, but I think referring to ones self as "accomplished" sounds more pompous and full of one's self than "professional." I think if I saw two painter's business cards, and one said "Ozzy's Professional Painters" and one said "Plant's Accomplished Painters" I'd go with the former.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I'd say "accomplished" is a word with an assumed specific antecedent. I'd say an accomplished painter would be one that painted The White House or a national landmark, or just one with significant specific accomplishments. Surely some many painters are accomplished, but I think referring to ones self as "accomplished" sounds more pompous and full of one's self than "professional." I think if I saw two painter's business cards, and one said "Ozzy's Professional Painters" and one said "Plant's Accomplished Painters" I'd go with the former.


Good point!

How about a Qualified Painter? ...aah, never mind. 

But as far as hard work, as it relates to prestige and livelyhood, I watched the movie The Paper Chase last night with a whole new set of eyes. It damn near gave me a panic attack! And the ending left a lot to contemplate. 

Not that the night course I took on construction contracts was any where even remotely close to Kingsfield's contract law lectures, but there were some similarities with my instructor's demeanor and his. 

And given that Professor Kingsfield sited a painting contract dispute as an example, made it pretty cool.

Gough reminds me a little of Kingsfield.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Woodford said:


> I'd say "accomplished" is a word with an assumed specific antecedent. I'd say an accomplished painter would be one that painted The White House or a national landmark, or just one with significant specific accomplishments. Surely some many painters are accomplished, but I think referring to ones self as "accomplished" sounds more pompous and full of one's self than "professional." I think if I saw two painter's business cards, and one said "Ozzy's Professional Painters" and one said "Plant's Accomplished Painters" I'd go with the former.


I don't know guys. Professional vs. Accomplished? 

All I know is my business cards have the word Artisan directly below my name. I was trying to be unique, yet convey the fact that I am a craftsman who works with his hands. Is that sensible or does it come across like I'm a basket weaver?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Can you make me one of those big baskets with a lid to match? I'd like it to be lots of different colors and have a pattern!

Jesting aside, I don't know what term sets painters who paint as their profession apart from handymen and the like. CA doesn't like professional and I don't like accomplished. Trade related words like journeyman aren't really known to the public, and master (while probably the most accurate) sounds pretentious (again, because people don't know the true connotations of the word). Maybe it's time to come up with a new term.

You could be... vocational painters! Vocational is even already a word, just not used quite this way? If we all do it, it'll catch on, right?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vocational sounds too much like a prisoner reform program. And "Artisan" sounds too much like a drunk drifter who lives on a sailboat. 


j/k


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

How about "Expert Painter"? It sounds all cocky but dutiful, just like a painter.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Somehow it sounds a bit tongue-in-cheek when I read it from you. I like it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I like it too!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

You guys are killing me. I like checking in on this thread, just to see what you're talking about today!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I still think this thread deserves a place in the newsletter.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I still think this thread deserves a place in the newsletter.


I don't think corporate would go for it. It's too much like a conversation between real working people. Besides, how would it be titled in the blog? "How to Remove Paint From DaArch's Porch Ceiling, and Other Eclectic Nonsense"?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't think corporate would go for it. It's too much like a conversation between real working people. Besides, how would it be titled in the blog? "How to Remove Paint From DaArch's Porch Ceiling, and other ecclectic nonsense"?


This post deserves love. Wrong thread CA. This one started off about TJ's broken brush. This is awesome! We've strayed so far, we don't even know where we started anymore.

Did you guys know that these threads get posted on the PT FB page? Anyone poking around on there can see everything in these threads with just one click. They're gonna wonder if all painters have attention defecit disorder.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Clearly you'd title it "Philosophical Miscellany: A Working Man's Perspective"


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm a painter
Some on here are businessmen, who paint, but......
Lol
So what are you? On a first date or whatever. Maybe ur meeting ur soon to be in laws or whatever
A painter? Haha or you 'operate a contracting company'
C'mon. What do you say? Haha


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm a paint specialist, says so right on my business card! How's that for snooty names!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> I'm a painter
> Some on here are businessmen, who paint, but......
> Lol
> So what are you? On a first date or whatever. Maybe ur meeting ur soon to be in laws or whatever
> ...


I emphasize "Expert" without accidently spitting in someone's eye. It perks people's ears up.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

We are into 'applications' 
I am a applicator.
And excuse urself right quick, hope they don't get back to it


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> We are into 'applications'
> I am a applicator.
> And excuse urself right quick, hope they don't get back to it


It's already been signed by the president of the United States. We are now known as Qualified Coating Application Experts/with a Vocational Emphasis on Artisan Mastery, and Craftmanship. or QCAE/VEAMC. Otherwise know as, Painter.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Oden said:


> I'm a painter
> Some on here are businessmen, who paint, but......
> Lol
> So what are you? On a first date or whatever. Maybe ur meeting ur soon to be in laws or whatever
> ...


I'm an Industrial Painter.

People definitely perk up and start asking questions when they notice that I specify, Industrial.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

A bridge painter at one time seemed to me to be a I dunno some kind of a mysterious kinda super dude
Then I met a mess of em
There went that


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I just say I'm a painter. Mother in law's parent's were painters, so she understands.

I used to love it when we went to art openings in Vancouver (my wife's an artist) and other artists would ask me "I understand you paint as well, what mediums do you use?" I'd respond, "mostly latex, 13mm rollers and such". They'd give me a very confused look. My wife would usher me away.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> I don't know guys. Professional vs. Accomplished?
> 
> All I know is my business cards have the word Artisan directly below my name. I was trying to be unique, yet convey the fact that I am a craftsman who works with his hands. Is that sensible or does it come across like I'm a basket weaver?





CApainter said:


> Vocational sounds too much like a prisoner reform program. And "Artisan" sounds too much like a drunk drifter who lives on a sailboat.
> 
> 
> j/k


Artisan made me think of a guy with a long, grey ponytail who smoked a little pot to get the creative juices flowing. Hmm....SemiproJohn, have you posted a pic in the "Faces to Names" thread? 

And BTW, where the _hell_ are you Steve Richards? You were supposed to check in now and again between your bouts of productivity.
We're having a grand old time here, but your input would make it even better.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> Artisan made me think of a guy with a long, grey ponytail who smoked a little pot to get the creative juices flowing. Hmm....SemiproJohn, have you posted a pic in the "Faces to Names" thread?
> 
> And BTW, where the _hell_ are you Steve Richards? You were supposed to check in now and again between your bouts of productivity.
> We're having a grand old time here, but your input would make it even better.


Slinger, you and CA clearly have me mistaken for Jimmy Buffett. And I gave the definition of artisan. It has nothing to do with pot, ponytails, sailing, cheesburgers in paradise, or Margaritas.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm a retired hack. I don't know what's the matter with the rest of you.


That paperhanging club I belonged to for a decade had a thing called "Certified Paperhanger" - supposedly to give confidence to Suzie and Harry that the person displaying the highly prestigious C.P. after their name had the talent and skills to properly install any paper they wanted to throw up on their wall.
It was also advertised as a marketing tools to bolster your brag sheet

Problems were
No one knew who the F the NGPP was that bestowed this rank upon this rank paperhanger

The test to become a CP involved NO hands on demonstration - strictly a written test

The study guide is now about 30 years old and outdated the day it was published

The CP (as clarified when asked about by a certain PITA hanger from Mass) was only to signify the hanger had RUDIMENTARY SKILLS. RUDIMENTARY, as in "I am certified to be able to hang as well as as any DIY'er"


Point being. I makes no poopoo what designation a painter has. Call yourself whatever you like. Experienced, Expert, Master, Professional, PHD (Painter from Home Depot), Artisian, Guru, Yahoo, whatever. Suzie and Harry really don't care what titles you have or not, they will judge you by your job and tell their friends.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> I'm a retired hack. I don't know what's the matter with the rest of you.
> 
> 
> That paperhanging club I belonged to for a decade had a thing called "Certified Paperhanger" - supposedly to give confidence to Suzie and Harry that the person displaying the highly prestigious C.P. after their name had the talent and skills to properly install any paper they wanted to throw up on their wall.
> ...


I am just a painter and NON certified cp


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

chrisn said:


> I am just a painter and NON certified cp


So wouldn't that make you "just a painter and a ph?"

A "NON certified cp" is simply a paper hanger, or ph for short.

(With the overall point being neither you or I care much for the particulars here regarding titles.)


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> I am just a painter and NON certified cp


where are the grammar nazis when you need one

non certified certified paperhanger ?????


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> Point being. I makes no poopoo what designation a painter has. Call yourself whatever you like. Experienced, Expert, Master, Professional, PHD (Painter from Home Depot), Artisian, Guru, Yahoo, whatever. Suzie and Harry really don't care what titles you have or not, they will judge you by your job and tell their friends.


But that's all predicated on you already having the job. And you're right, if you've got the job it's not relevant; you could call yourself a flying spaghetti monster and it'd be fine. But it could plausibly matter prior to getting the job- how much confidence the HO has in your ability if you haven't been referred may, in part, come from your description of yourself.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

SemiproJohn said:


> Slinger, you and CA clearly have me mistaken for Jimmy Buffett. And I gave the definition of artisan. It has nothing to do with pot, ponytails, sailing, cheesburgers in paradise, or Margaritas.


Well then, I want nothing to do with being an artisan!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Woodford said:


> But that's all predicated on you already having the job. And you're right, if you've got the job it's not relevant; you could call yourself a flying spaghetti monster and it'd be fine. But it could plausibly matter prior to getting the job- how much confidence the HO has in your ability if you haven't been referred may, in part, come from your description of yourself.


Ah yes, in terms of marketing, picking a term that describes the expertise and skill you wish Suzie and Harry to perceive you have is most important.

But I think this side track was initiated by what OUR perception of OURSELVES were and how we comfortable perceive ourselves - and then it went into different professions that society rewards with prestige and money.

So if we were to stick to the initial discussion about what we call ourselves for our own comfort, it don't really matter.

I believe these were the first couple of posts that threw the switch to get us on this siding. :thumbup:




Woodford said:


> I clearly recall you stating you don't perceive painters as professionals :thumbsup:





CApainter said:


> You're right.
> 
> In terms of a title, a "Professional" seems to me to be reserved for a lawyer, corporate business person, consultant, etc. Now a professional painter may describe the skill level of a painter but not necessarily his status. It's the difference between a noun and an adjective.
> 
> I'm prepared for Gough to crush me on this one. He's like my internet professor, and I hate disappointing him.





Woodford said:


> Personally I'd consider the meaning behind the "professional" designation would be that whatever you're doing is your primary vocation. A professional athlete is anyone who pays the bills via their athletics, eg painters on their ladders (jesting). A professional lawyer is one who pays the bills by practicing law (PT armchair lawyering does not count, unfortunately).





CApainter said:


> I understand that. But how would you describe the guy behind the deli counter? A professional sandwich maker?
> 
> I still believe the description of a "professional" is reserved for those who have earned that title via law and business schools, or other learning institutions that produce specialized vocations.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

True, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable advertising myself as something that I don't feel describes me appropriately, or describing myself as something I wouldn't advertise myself as. Both ways feel disingenuous, so for us to pick something invariably it must fit both slots. Maybe that's just a personal thing- I think I know a few painters on here who consider themselves gods, but might not advertise that way.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Well since it's out of fashion to garnish oneself with feathered crowns and beads in a display of status and prestige, the next best thing is a title. 

Take the word Professional. It looks like a parade of symbols rolling off the tongue with gaudy authority and self indulgence. I mean two "S"'s, really?

Now take the word Expert. It carries itself like a battle hardened warrior with shield and sword at the ready. To defend, or attack. An honorable yet humble title.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess we just need a national education system for painters that can give masters and doctorates. Then you can just be Doctors of Coating Technologies and the problem will be solved. We could also work on defining those best practices CA always likes to talk about


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I still like Paperhaging Deity

Sorry, it rolls easily off the tongue and puts me on the appropriate level of knowledge, expertise, creativity, and super human powers. 

:lol:


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

daArch said:


> Ah yes, in terms of marketing, picking a term that describes the expertise and skill you wish Suzie and Harry to perceive you have is most important.
> 
> But I think this side track was initiated by what OUR perception of OURSELVES were and how we comfortable perceive ourselves - and then it went into different professions that society rewards with prestige and money.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill for not including me with these thread-derailing, instigating ne'er do wells. :jester:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> where are the grammar nazis when you need one
> 
> non certified certified paperhanger ?????


it was early yet


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> it was early yet



Sheeeeet, Chris, 5:33 is practically mid-day for you. :thumbsup:


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