# Lowering the Final Bill - Ever Do It?



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Usually my bids are pretty good and when the jobs over and done with I can look back and see that my number was right on. The price I gave them and the customer agreed to was fair to both them and myself. However, every now and then everything goes so smoothly on a job that it zips right along and when it's finished I can see that I made quite a bit more than I aim for as my typical profit margin. Sometimes... SOMETIMES, when this happens - and the customer was a really good one to work for and made the job an enjoyable experience - I'll reduce my bill a bit to make it a little nicer for them. Just curious if many others out there ever find themselves doing this from time to time.

Pros and cons?

Dan


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I never do, I just tell myself what comes around goes around. Meaning I take a beating now and then, then I do quite well. It all evens out, or at least I hope lol

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> I never do, I just tell myself what comes around goes around. Meaning I take a beating now and then, then I do quite well. It all evens out, or at least I hope lol
> 
> Pat


I agree with that "law of averages" concept Pat and most of the time that's what I do myself. But every now and then the situation just settles out in a way that it seems the right thing to do. Probably not a very smart business decision though.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

researchhound said:


> I agree with that "law of averages" concept Pat and most of the time that's what I do myself. But every now and then the situation just settles out in a way that it seems the right thing to do. Probably not a very smart business decision though.


I dunno, sometimes the technical version of a smart business decision is not always right. There are times like what you are suggesting that could be a better business decision in the long run.

I would also bet that half the time people do that, The customer says a quick thanks and leaves it at that, where here you are debating over such a decision for a few days if not longer. As you're driving home you completely regret what you just did. 

Pat


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

What Pat said.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I would never do that,nor would I ask for more money if my bid was way off.That's just part of this business. IMHO


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

*Materials*

I have and will continue to pad my materials list and cover my self for that wall that might need a 3rd coat or something.

That being the case, I am willing to tell the customer we didn't need as much and reduce the bill by $37 or whatever. 

Never have I dropped it by $100s of dollars. Can you help it if you are so good at what you do that you that you make excellent money on an efficiently run project?

If it had taken you extra time to complete, would you have been happy with the original price?

If the customer expects to pay $2000.00 and you bill them for that, everyone is happy. One guy may take 4 days while a crew does it in a day and a half. It's still a job for an agreed upon price.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

aaron61 said:


> I would never do that,nor would I ask for more money if my bid was way off.That's just part of this business. IMHO


yep,thats the way i look at it....ramsden has a post going now,some jobs you make a little less some you make a little more, it all works out in the end. our profession is very gray on most large jobs, many many things can come up on big jobs so i try to have a little cushion as we all should, if i fiqure a job at $10 k i hope to make between $2500 & $4000. with that being said i have made more on some jobs and i have made less on some


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Buy them a gift instead. Membership, fruit basket, coupon for another tradesmen or business you have worked out a deal with.. something. 

You know you were probably the high bid in this situation, or they didn't bother to get another bid. I like those types of clients.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

In the case that motivated me to post this thread, I didn't bill the customer my surcharge for doing one accent wall. I just did it. Wasn't a big amount of money in the context of the entire job but it was still money I didn't end up bringing home. You all make good points against it.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm also with Pat on this one, but can relate to Dan on the mental masturbation we go through when under budged by allot. This is a risk and reward business. Don't stick your nose up at the rewards.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I used too. After hanging out on PT and hearing this question and answer before I don't anymore. 

This is exactly one of many little tidbits that I've learned here that has made my business better and unapologetic about the numbers. 



ps....good on ya Dan....I would love a 'smoooth' job about now.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Can't say I never have, but I usually don't.

When I'm considering it, I try and remember jobs that didn't go like I'd planned, took way long than I'd thought, that no one ever paid me extra for.

(You're just a nice guy, RH..you can't help that)


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

After 33 years in the business, I have found that very few customers remember your good deed of reducing their bill. I used to do it rather regularly thinking the client would remember me as a decent human being who worked hard & recognized an overestimate.

I don't do it much anymore, although I do have a heart & sometimes reduce it for a struggling single mom or an elderly client on a fixed income.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

When job are done under budget our painters get the bonus.
Job costing job to job is a good habit, 
but at the end the margins matter more over a month or a year.
If there are any bad jobs or jobs you had to buy, these jobs are the ones that will help.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

As they say, everything depends on everything else.

Depends on the customer, depends on the PITA factor, depends on how many hours I beat the estimate by.


For some customers I'm at a stage where I work by the clock, but I still give them a ballpark estimate. Those estimates are purposefully a little high, so on those the invoice will often be less than the "guesstimate"

On some stripping jobs, I murder the estimate by a substantial amount, so if the install goes well, I'll reduce the invoice.

The law of averages is a good thing to keep in mind, but so is customer relations and building karma. I'm not in business to be unfair to myself or my customers.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I don't understand you knowingly walk away with money sitting on the table?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I don't understand you knowingly walk away with money sitting on the table?


There are times when doing that will lead to more money on the table. 

Pat


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I don't understand you knowingly walk away with money sitting on the table?



My life is not based on money alone. I'm sure it's an odd concept to many, but I learned long ago it wasn't something that was going to dictate my every thought.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> There are times when doing that will lead to more money on the table.
> 
> Pat


Leaving money on the table will lead to more money on the table? How? I can see it will give the client a feel good moment, but who to say they wouldn't have used you again because you are a professional, who delivers a quality product in a productive manner. I would rather build on that than lower cost.


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## right? or right now? (Dec 15, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> There are times when doing that will lead to more money on the table.
> 
> Pat


Agreed; sometimes it works...sometimes it doesnt, depends on the relationship with the client. but it also depends on if I'm feeling strapped, or flush. For me its a good practice when done in small doses, you can feel great, or feel like a great Ass. to each his/her own.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Leaving money on the table will lead to more money on the table? How? I can see it will give the client a feel good moment, but who to say they wouldn't have used you again because you are a professional, who delivers a quality product in a productive manner. I would rather build on that than lower cost.


Sometimes the smallest thing can turn a good customer into a good customer + a salesman.

I'm not saying this is the case every time , most likely it's not, but every now and then, when the cards are all lined up right, it could work to your advantage. Or like Bill said, sometimes it's just not about the money.

Pat


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

right? or right now? said:


> Agreed; sometimes it works...sometimes it doesnt, depends on the relationship with the client. but it also depends on if I'm feeling strapped, or flush. For me its a good practice when done in small doses, you can feel great, or feel like a great Ass. to each his/her own.



once again, everything depends on everything else.

One of the best things about being self employed is the flexibility to do what appears to be most appropriate in any aparticular situation. Personally I would hate be be a hard assed heartless bean counter.

But I am one of those "lib-er-als" brought up on movies like "It's a Wonderful Life", "A Christmas Carol", "Pollyanna" and all sorts of others that probably were not part of the syllabus at Harvard Business School


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

I do not negotiate my price. But, about once a year a job will come in way better than I could have planned and I will cut the customer a price break. I figure the good will and good word is worth more than the money I deducted.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lee Decorating Corp. said:


> I do not negotiate my price. But, about once a year a job will come in way better than I could have planned and I will cut the customer a price break. I figure the good will and good word is worth more than the money I deducted.


There's a big difference between negotiating downward, feeling you need to because of competing bids, and doing what I did. This was just not billing for a specific item we did. It's always a set surcharge for an accent wall and that's the only thing I dropped (and it wasn't a lot of cash). Still, as Gabe said, once the money is on the table... 

It's not a good idea to let emotions influence these types of decisions so I usually do think it through before proceeding.

Good input everyone!


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

When I finish a job, I like to have everyone happy ... that's the idea behing 'leaving something on the table.' Fail to do that, and the relationship can quickly become a distrustful dog-eat-dog sort of thing.

Especially with established customers, I like to present a final bill a bit less than the estimate I gave beforehand - or, at least, be able to detail some of the little extras I did along the way. 

Because -and here's the key- there WILL be the time you need to go back and ask for more. By now, everyone is aware of the 'contractor hustle,' where the guy gets his foot in with a low quote, but winds up asking for more than the 'high' guy by the time all the change orders are paid.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

researchhound said:


> There's a big difference between negotiating downward, feeling you need to because of competing bids, and doing what I did. This was just not billing for a specific item we did. It's always a set surcharge for an accent wall and that's the only thing I dropped (and it wasn't a lot of cash). Still, as Gabe said, once the money is on the table...
> 
> It's not a good idea to let emotions influence these types of decisions so I usually do think it through before proceeding.
> 
> Good input everyone!


 No, I understood. Sometimes I throw in an accent wall too, even though it is listed as an extra on my contract. Never has anyone said "thank you" for that..


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree with Aaron. We work for the estimated price, never increase or decrease after the job for the same scope of work. The customer should be happy that the work was done beyond their expectations. My numbers are not their business.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Yes, I am with Chris and Aaron as well. I have to say it is ALWAYS about the money. If it wasn't I wouldn't even be in business. Call what you want, I don't care.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

daArch said:


> As they say, everything depends on everything else.
> 
> Depends on the customer, depends on the PITA factor, depends on how many hours I beat the estimate by.
> 
> ...


 After I read this post I just figured I could not not answer it any better...so Ditto for me ...and in fact I'm sitting with an invoice in my wallet right now pondering whether to drop the price of a job that went awfully good for us !


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

+1 another one Aaron's view. I have had jobs were I thought "damn, that was a homerun". Then on the next job, an employee loses his footing, cracks the granite slab on a retaining wall and spills bleach into the prize azaleas. If the customer agreed to the price and you delivered 100% I see no reason to lower your bill. It goes into the "bank" for future issues. If I cause inconvenience to customer like a recent one where the customer lost their land line because they say we got water into the box, then I'll give a little towards good will.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

I've done this to build up an honest reputation in an area i know i could potentially get alot of work in(IE, there are 8 houses peeling on the same street. or ive already been approached on interior work by multiple others ont the same street. bids pending) Leaving your customer feeling like they "won" is an old, but still a good tactic. They are happy with your work, and you gave them a break on it..they go tell their friends after you ask them to help refer you. On the same token though is it really adding to your customers satisfaction? they already agreed on the price before you started work, they are already happy with the work if they are paying you. Take a look at the other factors, did you and your guys bust ass on it to get it done in a time shorter than you alloted yourself in the bid? If so it may be more advantageous from a management standpoint to pass that reward onto your employees. Show them their hard work means something to you, give them some incentive to keep it up. Maybe take them out to lunch on friday, throw them some extra dough at the end of the week to enjoy their time off a bit more. How much money did you make more than you expected? if its a couple hundred on a couple thousand dollar job i say walk with it..i know ive had jobs where i made less than i expected. law of averages. if the number is a good percentage more, they wernt A PITA, could possibly get more work/referals or they were just good people. give them a break.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

I figured out a loooong time ago that I wasn't going to get rich in this business, so I figure if I can do something nice for someone who really deserves it, why not ? Every single job I do (for nice folks) I make a point of doing some little extra thing at no charge. Might cost me 50.00 - 100.00 sometimes but what the heck. It does feel good to do good.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Much appreciated.

Will say that I have *never* asked for more than the amount contracted for.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

For all the guys that say their price is the final price, if they underbid or overbid, its still the price. What do you do when the customer at the end of the job gives you a bonus? give it back and say no thanks? I think it can go both ways here.

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> For all the guys that say their price is the final price, if they underbid or overbid, its still the price. What do you do when the customer at the end of the job gives you a bonus? give it back and say no thanks? I think it can go both ways here.
> 
> Pat


It's always a nice gesture when a customer does that but for some stupid reason it always makes me feel uncomfortable. Can never figure out why.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

researchhound said:


> It's always a nice gesture when a customer does that but for some stupid reason it always makes me feel uncomfortable. Can never figure out why.


I think it's cool because it's saying I did something right. It falls right in the same line as someone just saying thanks, they love it and so on. Then there's those customers that never give you a clue if they are happy or not. Even if you ask them they give you some vague answer that still leaves you clueless.

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> For all the guys that say their price is the final price, if they underbid or overbid, its still the price. What do you do when the customer at the end of the job gives you a bonus? give it back and say no thanks? I think it can go both ways here.
> 
> Pat


I don't get tips but my guys do all the time and I am fine with it.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> I don't get tips but my guys do all the time and I am fine with it.


It's great to see your crew get the tips ! You know you got some good ones:thumbsup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

What is it with the mentality of painters that think they do not deserve to be payed well? Dropping your price to get a job, giving money back if you had a profit, giving the contractor pricing for materials. What else?

Why on earth would you have to give money back to prove your honesty? IMO this would rise a bigger red flag. 

If you can do a task more efficiently than your competition shouldn't pu reap the rewards? Or should you drop your price?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Scotiadawg said:


> It's great to see your crew get the tips ! You know you got some good ones:thumbsup:


I am very lucky. My guys are the best.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> What is it with the mentality of painters that think they do not deserve to be payed well? Dropping your price to get a job, giving money back if you had a profit, giving the contractor pricing for materials. What else?
> 
> Why on earth would you have to give money back to prove your honesty? IMO this would rise a bigger red flag.
> 
> If you can do a task more efficiently than your competition shouldn't pu reap the rewards? Or should you drop your price?


Not all customers are loaded with cash. It's not about proving anything. It's a genuine passion you might have on providing a excellent service and being fair. 

Not everyone operates a robotic painting business. 

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Usually my bids are pretty good and when the jobs over and done with I can look back and see that my number was right on. The price I gave them and the customer agreed to was fair to both them and myself. However, every now and then everything goes so smoothly on a job that it zips right along and when it's finished I can see that I made quite a bit more than I aim for as my typical profit margin. Sometimes... SOMETIMES, when this happens - and the customer was a really good one to work for and made the job an enjoyable experience - I'll reduce my bill a bit to make it a little nicer for them. Just curious if many others out there ever find themselves doing this from time to time.
> 
> Pros and cons?
> 
> Dan


Do you ask for more when the stars dont align?

If the answer is no, then you cant give back when the stars do. 

Fair is fair.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> What is it with the mentality of painters that think they do not deserve to be payed well? Dropping your price to get a job, giving money back if you had a profit, giving the contractor pricing for materials. What else?
> 
> Why on earth would you have to give money back to prove your honesty? IMO this would rise a bigger red flag.
> 
> If you can do a task more efficiently than your competition shouldn't pu reap the rewards? Or should you drop your price?


Fear of success, that is the psychology of it. Honest profit is no reason for guilt.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Not all customers are loaded with cash. It's not about proving anything. It's a genuine passion you might have on providing a excellent service and being fair.
> 
> Not everyone operates a robotic painting business.
> 
> Pat


Do you have a set profit margin and decide to give a refund once you hit that number? Like a passion for working for a set rate?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

It's getting clear here that the non field guys vs the in the field guys have a slight different view here. 

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> It's getting clear here that the non field guys vs the in the field guys have a slight different view here.
> 
> Pat


 
Your clueless Pat. I am in the field working every day. 

I was at the shop spraying at 6:00am this morning and was Tung Oil'ing Birch counter tops in a 5 million dollar home at 7:00pm tonight. 

I used the Pat sucker twice today too.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It's actually clear here who are the one man shows and who runs a business with overhead and employees. 

Take that.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Do you have a set profit margin and decide to give a refund once you hit that number? Like a passion for working for a set rate?


First of all I have only done this a few times, been a few years since the last time. It was due to me padding the bid due to unknowns. If I had known the unknowns prior to giving the price then my price would have been lower to start with. The customer was not rich at all, more like she was really good looking and I was trying to get a piece of her pie . J/k, well sorta.

I'm just saying I can see where Dan is coming from, that's all.

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> First of all I have only done this a few times, been a few years since the last time. It was due to *me* *padding the bid* due to unknowns. If I had known the unknowns prior to giving the price then my price would have been lower to start with. The customer was not rich at all, more like she was really good looking and I was trying to get a piece of her pie . J/k, well sorta.
> 
> I'm just saying I can see where Dan is coming from, that's all.
> 
> Pat


There would be the problem-o, thus the guilt and the need to give money back. 

Thank you for clearing that up.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

> due to unknowns.


Come on bud, let's paint the whole picture next time..

Pat


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Why do the big shop guys get all bent and chit over the one man guys? You can provide services that we can't and we can provide stuff that you can not.. Who cares.

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Come on bud, let's paint the whole picture next time..
> 
> Pat


I've never priced a unknown or padded for it. I have a specific estimate and it is followed. Any changes must be in writing and paid for. 

Sorry if that is robotic.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Your clueless Pat. I am in the field working every day.
> 
> I was at the shop spraying at 6:00am this morning and was Tung Oil'ing Birch counter tops in a 5 million dollar home at 7:00pm tonight.
> 
> I used the Pat sucker twice today too.


I am doing this week what you were doing last week. Spraying oil primer and oil Imperv on site in a basement spray booth. 

Oil rage and thinner angst. I can break an hvlp gun down into 12 pieces and have it clean and reassembled in 15 minutes these days. 

And I still dont want to offer refunds. :jester:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Why do the big shop guys get all bent and chit over the one man guys? You can provide services that we can't and we can provide stuff that you can not.. Who cares.
> 
> Pat


Your battle my friend, I'm just playing along. :thumbup:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> I've never priced a unknown or padded for it. I have a specific estimate and it is followed. Any changes must be in writing and paid for.
> 
> Sorry if that is robotic.


Please - That's completely BS. and you know it. 

Pat


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

No battle here, Wth you talking about?

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I am doing this week what you were doing last week. Spraying oil primer and oil Imperv on site in a basement spray booth.
> 
> Oil rage and thinner angst. I can break an hvlp gun down into 12 pieces and have it clean and reassembled in 15 minutes these days.
> 
> And I still dont want to offer refunds. :jester:


I caught a cold in the middle of it and my eyes and nose are still screwed up. 

Having any drying issues with impervo? I def had some issues with some doors.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I am a small shop and in the field, I never give money back, we had an agreed upon contract and that is all I expect. I get offered tips from time to time along with food and drinks and I try to refuse without being rude. Sometimes you know they will be offended and you accept but I prefer to just do what I said I would and hope I satisfied them and that I left a good enough impression that I will be the guy they call when something else comes up and then I move on to the next one. 

If you want to alter the contract price by reducing the amount that is an individual decision but I have never done it in all these years.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I caught a cold in the middle of it and my eyes and nose are still screwed up.
> 
> Having any drying issues with impervo? I def had some issues with some doors.


We oil primed a batch on tuesday, and it was really hot with no air exchange. The primer kicked off super fast. Our basement space has two large adjacent mech rooms that are putting out some warmth, and there is no air exchange yet. 

We went back today for impervo coats on the same batch, set up tighter zips, created a cross draft, thinned the impervo rigorously and got it to just lay and level. All good except for the exposed for the conditions. Fortunately, the batches we are doing will get a tip coat after installation.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Yup - we tipped doors and mdf panels with mohair 1/4 weenies. Look like glass.

Thinned with penetrol.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Didn't mean for this to turn into such a hot button topic. 

In my case I know wasn't a fear of success, any guilt trip, a need to prove my honesty, or give myself an atta boy. Just turned out that the accent wall ended up being almost no extra work because of their color choices - that's all. And the HO did give me a sincere thank you because of it (which did feel kinda nice).


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Didn't mean for this to turn into such a hot button topic.
> 
> In my case I know wasn't a fear of success, any guilt trip, a need to prove my honesty, or give myself an atta boy. Just turned out that the accent wall ended up being almost no extra work because of their color choices - that's all. And the HO did give me a sincere thank you because of it (which did feel kinda nice).


Hack

:jester:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Didn't mean for this to turn into such a hot button topic.
> 
> In my case I know wasn't a fear of success, any guilt trip, a need to prove my honesty, or give myself an atta boy. Just turned out that the accent wall ended up being almost no extra work because of their color choices - that's all. And the HO did give me a sincere thank you because of it (which did feel kinda nice).



No explanation needed for me. I just have never done it and never considered it. I guess I am in the it all evens out crowd.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Hack
> 
> :jester:


Now I understand why he started that "Hack" thread. :whistling2: :jester:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gotta take off to do a bid - I'll deal with you two later.:yes:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Gotta take off to do a bid - I'll deal with you two later.:yes:


Hope you sell it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I do think there is a different approach between the single operators and those with crews. 

I can fully understand that for a business with 4 - 10 people on the payroll, a number such as $500 is a very small percentage. Yet that same $500 to me is not a "small" percentage of a day's payroll. 

Not that I have ever been off by 500 one way or the other, but dollar amounts are perceived differently by the two business models. 

I can't remember the last job that I underestimated, but I can remember a few where I made sure I estimated enough not to be killed by an unknown. And stripping is an unknown. As I said, If I make a good percentage on an unknown like stripping, and the customer is a regular, I will give them a $50 - $75 dollar reduction.

And if I may be a bit sensitive, I am a bit offended by the thoughts that it comes from fear of success. Simply, it comes from my upbringing.

Remember, in my heritage is up-country Cow Hamster and our Pilgrim forefathers. Old Yankee stock forged from reputation. hammered out with reliability, and tempered in frugality. Jobs were sealed with a handshake and executed with trust, on both sides. What StripandCaulk says about reputation in this respect does have an impact on us smaller operators. I understand it doesn't affect the larger companies to the same degree. 

Look, I ain't gonna persuade anyone else to deviate from the path that works for them, all I can do is describe what makes me comfortable.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> all I can do is describe what makes me comfortable.


Interesting choice of words. Its been coming up alot in the past 12 months. 

Comfort can actually work against you.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

It would be a challenge convincing me that being "comfortable" is a bad thing.

Remember, I was brought up believing "moderation" is good. 

And I have learned that being on "top" is only followed by a fall, and being on the bottom is no fun. 

Comfortably content satisfies me.

Being excellent in what I do is good enough. Settling for nothing less than perfection will drive one mad.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Bill I don't think it is a size thing. I am small, the past couple years I have been running one regular guy, a seasonal and myself. The regular guy moved on around late October and it has just been me because I did not want to go through the hassle of finding someone and then slowing down during this time. 

So I don't think it is a size thing just a personal preferance on how one feels. If it works to knock a few bucks off then go for it, myself never done it and doubt I will now. 

If I wanted to help them out I do it on the front not the back.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Bill I don't think it is a size thing. I am small,.


We still talking about painting?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I do speak in generalities. Just a perception I perceived. I am sure my shoe does not fit all.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> We still talking about painting?


I did not know we were talking about painting, disregard.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> We still talking about painting?


It's not the meat, it's the motion

Although both is the best. :thumbup:


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

daArch said:


> Look, I ain't gonna persuade anyone else to deviate from the path that works for them, all I can do is describe what makes me comfortable.


Couldnt agree more, were all different and what works for one may not another. Theres enough people out there that are not as good as their word, dishonest. If it costs me every now and then, maybe i dont get rich but ill be able to sleep at night. As long as i can support the people around me, and i dont have to sacrifice my values im good. If i knock down my price its usually because i overbid on something like popcorn texture removal. i tell them i but a buffer in IF something goes wrong. explain what it is..like tape joints needing extra coats, or gutted completely, new joints and 3 coats. I point it out they understand the charge. if i dont need the buffer i hand it back.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Good thread


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> And if I may be a bit sensitive, I am a bit offended by the thoughts that it comes from fear of success. Simply, it comes from my upbringing.


You know you can't be sensitive around here, hell if this was the place to be sensitive you may have offended people by implying they were not properly raised because they did not want to lower the final total.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Hey, I can't help it if I was raised properly by ethical parents and no one else was :whistling2: :whistling2: :thumbup:

(is THAT insensitive enough?)


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> You know you can't be sensitive around here, hell if this was the place to be sensitive you may have offended people by implying they were not properly raised because they did not want to lower the final total.


Quote of the week for me


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Next thread, "I don't understand why I cant get out of the bucket" 

Pat, I'm in the field as well. I was the green monkey on the scaffold spraying industrial steel at my local high school new athletic complex. TBH I am not running many employees these days. I've stepped back a bit. In fact its just me this week.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> Hey, I can't help it if I was raised properly by ethical parents and no one else was :whistling2: :whistling2: :thumbup:
> 
> (is THAT insensitive enough?)


Perfect.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

daArch said:


> It would be a challenge convincing me that being "comfortable" is a bad thing.
> 
> Remember, I was brought up believing "moderation" is good.
> 
> ...


I take pride in running a business above reproach. It's my goal to have no one in town who could speak ill of me, though I know that's a tall order.

At least 50% of my jobs are multiple repeat customers who bring home fast food, cookies, etc. for me and would be hurt if I declined the offer.
Many times, they round-up the final check.
First time clients often offer ice water or cokes and I tell them I have food and drink packed.

My town of 50,000 is small enough that contractor woes are discussed at the beauty shop, donut shop, barber shop, etc. and they are known by their trucks, business names, and so on.

I think I am finally in that group of guys whom people refer while at dinner gatherings, church functions, etc. and I will not compromise that.

If I get a tip, it's because they are thankful they got what I promised when I promised it, which is frequently lacking in my town.

I thank them for giving me a chance to bid. I thank their friend for referring me, I thank them for their time to meet me. I thank them for letting me work them in to my schedule. I thank them for the business and ask them to consider me for future needs.

If they tip me as their way of saying thanks, that's OK.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Hope you sell it.


Thanks - I did. I also jacked my bid way up and I'm gonna keep it all.:sneaky2::yes:

Repeat customer, nice job, nice house. Started out as a "We want a bedroom and bathroom painted", which turned into a, "Well while you're here we might as well discuss the master bedroom and bath, utility room, and office, and all the ceilings too." Should fill in the middle of March very nicely. 



Workaholic said:


> Now I understand why he started that "Hack" thread. :whistling2: :jester:


LOL... Guess we could add, "Reduces the bill to get warm fuzzies.", as one of the qualifiers.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> No explanation needed for me. I just have never done it and never considered it. I guess I am in the it all evens out crowd.


I don't know - I *always* get the feeling I need to explain it to you.:whistling2::yes::thumbup:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Repeat customer, nice job, nice house. Started out as a "We want a bedroom and bathroom painted", which turned into a, "Well while you're here we might as well discuss the master bedroom and bath, utility room, and office, and all the ceilings too." Should fill in the middle of March very nicely.


WTG, RH!

Sometimes people will add-on for me during estimates too.
Seems like mostly when I'm so busy I don't know how I'll fit in what they called me about in the first place though.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Give freely- Receive freely.:thumbsup:


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Fear of success, that is the psychology of it. Honest profit is no reason for guilt.


Worth repeating. :thumbsup:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Worth repeating. :thumbsup:


Does that apply to SW too?:whistling2:


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

......well Dan, I hope you've learned your lesson.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Paint and Hammer said:


> ......well Dan, I hope you've learned your lesson.


No good deed goes unpunished.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Concur.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> ......well Dan, I hope you've learned your lesson.


This about sums it up...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Concur.


Is that a statement or an order? :whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> No good deed goes unpunished.


Wasn't sure that it was a typo or not. Was pretty accurate before.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

C'mon - don't crap out on me now. First thread of mine to maybe reach 100. Don't want the last five posts to be mine - but they will be if I'm forced into it!
I'll even accept more abuse or rubbing my nose in it (just spare the rolled up newspaper).


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

researchhound said:


> C'mon - don't crap out on me now. First thread of mine to maybe reach 100. Don't want the last five posts to be mine - but they will be if I'm forced into it!
> I'll even accept more abuse or rubbing my nose in it (just spare the rolled up newspaper).


So how did you choose researchhound for a name?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Isnt


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

this


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

thread


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

over yet? 101


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I wish basco could have commented on lowering final price.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I wish basco could have commented on lowering final price.


We are currently in ban lift negotiations, there are other questions to be answered


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> We are currently in ban lift negotiations, there are other questions to be answered


The hard topics are being processed by analysts at QW as we speak. 

Its all data.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> We are currently in ban lift negotiations, there are other questions to be answered


 Another quote watch job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

btw, congrats to reseachhound on hitting 3 figures in the thread. Used to be was this place would get lit up every night with 3 to 400 post threads and then they would shrink way down come morning. Usually there has to be more scrapping for a thread to really pop.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> The hard topics are being processed by analysts at QW as we speak.
> 
> Its all data.


Laugh now, Plain is gearing up to come back in full force!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I thought he said his nephew wasnt working for him anymore? They have the same mullet. Kinda cool.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> They have the same mullet. Kinda cool.


 To quote Hank Williams Jr...
"It's a family tradition"


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> First of all I have only done this a few times, been a few years since the last time. It was due to me padding the bid due to unknowns. If I had known the unknowns prior to giving the price then my price would have been lower to start with. The customer was not rich at all, more like she was really good looking and I was trying to get a piece of her pie . J/k, well sorta.
> 
> I'm just saying I can see where Dan is coming from, that's all.
> 
> Pat


Looks like you got a piece of her melon instead.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I thought he said his nephew wasnt working for him anymore? They have the same mullet. Kinda cool.


I dunno... looks more like a "hair helmut" to me.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> btw, congrats to reseachhound on hitting 3 figures in the thread. Used to be was this place would get lit up every night with 3 to 400 post threads and then they would shrink way down come morning. Usually there has to be more scrapping for a thread to really pop.


There was enough.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> So how did you choose researchhound for a name?


Same way I do my bids and figure my final bill -


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> Same way I do my bids and figure my final bill -


I am glad we've taught you SOMETHING here on PT. If I remember correctly, you used to use a ruler, paper, pencil, and a calculator. Welcome to the 1960's


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Has a lead qualifier at the top and a nifty little feature at the bottom to let me know when the job is completed. Had to pay extra for those.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Also has a nifty little feature at the bottom to let me know when the job is completed. Had to pay extra for that.


It's good to have a "system". 



*Dean cringes*


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

If you found a $20 bill on the sidewalk, would you keep it to yourself or give it to the person walking behind you?

When I lose my ass, I ask for nothing. It's a lesson learned. When I make $100/hr it is also a lesson learned, and it's that I made I $100 an hour some how some way while winning the bid war. My price is my price. Sometimes I do bad, sometimes good, but they aren't lowering their wage for their boss when they do well so sorry neither am I.

This is a business and I'm out to make every penny I can. :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I prefer not to think of it as a system - rather as process that I've developed after years in the business. Getting lots of feedback, building a strong referral base as a result of a large pool of loyal clients, and communicating with the supernatural are all strong components. Not for everyone but it's worked well for me.

Pros and cons? :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> I prefer not to think of it as a system - rather as process that I've developed after years in the business. Getting lots of feedback, building a strong referral base as a result of a large pool of loyal clients, and communicating with the supernatural are all strong components. Not for everyone but it's worked well for me.
> 
> Pros and cons? :whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


>


That's a good back up.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Scotiadawg said:


> I figured out a loooong time ago that I wasn't going to get rich in this business, so I figure if I can do something nice for someone who really deserves it, why not ? Every single job I do (for nice folks) I make a point of doing some little extra thing at no charge. Might cost me 50.00 - 100.00 sometimes but what the heck. It does feel good to do good.


 That is soooooo true around this area of the country big ScotiaDawg ! That's a great gesture on your part and we do it all the time too ! I had done a few extra things for a not so well to do guy last Fall and on Xmas Eve he showed up with a dozen beer for me...it was totally unexpected !!! I told him to not do that but he said that it made him feel good doing it ! LOL....and it is still sitting on my shelf out in the garage...I'm not a Moosehead beer drinker LOL .


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

playedout6 said:


> That is soooooo true around this area of the country big ScotiaDawg ! That's a great gesture on your part and we do it all the time too ! I had done a few extra things for a not so well to do guy last Fall and on Xmas Eve he showed up with a dozen beer for me...it was totally unexpected !!! I told him to not do that but he said that it made him feel good doing it ! LOL....and it is still sitting on my shelf out in the garage...I'm not a Moosehead beer drinker LOL .


If it was Mooshead I'd let it sit in the garage too! I always say you drink Blue and pi*& moosehead.:yes: Glad to know you don't mind doing the good deed now and again, I guess Maritimers are known for that!:thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Moosehead ain't as bad as others. Crap, Molson red was never good and now Golden is just polar bear piss. I suppose it's Coors fault. Blame it on Steve, he lived in Golden CO. 

The best Molson I ever had was in Montreal in a bar - it was a Brador. Bought a case to bring home. As soon as I crossed the border it turned to Lord Stanley's Pee. 

I do believe though, that Labatt is recycled Molson red - recycled through the bladders of Rush. 

But still, two sixes is a nice _gesture_


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You guys bring up a good point. It was suggested earlier that it might be a big business with employees versus a OMS mentality. I found myself wondering if it was a small town versus big town mentality.

I totally respect the position of those that posted to say they never feel the need to reduce their bill and that it all tends to even out. Or that they are in business to make money and nothing else. I get that. I think I understand that more than I understand anyone saying they always bid so they can leave a little on the table. That just doesn't equate to good business practices IMO.

Regardless, it was interesting to get the variety of feedback and I do appreciate everyone who took the time to respond.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

daArch said:


> Moosehead ain't as bad as others. Crap, Molson red was never good and now Golden is just polar bear piss. I suppose it's Coors fault. Blame it on Steve, he lived in Golden CO.
> 
> The best Molson I ever had was in Montreal in a bar - it was a Brador. Bought a case to bring home. As soon as I crossed the border it turned to Lord Stanley's Pee.
> 
> ...


oh you poor misguided soul that's just so wrong! I suppose you are used to drinking _gasp_ American beer - and it's a streatch to refer to it as such!:whistling2:.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Dan, 

During the conversation, I thought I got the feeling that some thought that others were in a *REGULAR* habit of reducing the invoice. Now obviously I can not speak for others, but my impression was that it's an infrequent occurrence when the stars align. 

And I am also reminded that many of us offer *E S T I M A T E S* as opposed to firm proposals. I think all of us have lost what the true meaning of "ESTIMATE" is.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Dan,
> 
> During the conversation, I thought I got the feeling that some thought that others were in a *REGULAR* habit of reducing the invoice. Now obviously I can not speak for others, but my impression was that it's an infrequent occurrence when the stars align.
> 
> And I am also reminded that many of us offer *E S T I M A T E S* as opposed to firm proposals. I think all of us have lost what the true meaning of "ESTIMATE" is.


The estimated price is THE price (assuming nothing is added or removed from scope), unless you are a philanthropist painter. I am starting to think there are alot of trustafarians in the paint business.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> Dan,
> 
> During the conversation, I thought I got the feeling that some thought that others were in a *REGULAR* habit of reducing the invoice. Now obviously I can not speak for others, but my impression was that it's an infrequent occurrence when the stars align.
> 
> And I am also reminded that many of us offer *E S T I M A T E S* as opposed to firm proposals. I think all of us have lost what the true meaning of "ESTIMATE" is.


In my case that's true Bill. I did have a paragraph in my last post saying I maybe do this once a year but removed it for brevity's sake. The stars do indeed need to be aligned for me to do it. I personally don't do "estimates". I submit a bid and that's what it is unless there are add-ons.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Scotiadawg said:


> oh you poor misguided soul that's just so wrong! I suppose you are used to drinking _gasp_ American beer - and it's a streatch to refer to it as such!:whistling2:.


American versus Canadian beer. Good idea for a thread. Course we can keep on jacking up the numbers on this one - fine with me.:yes:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

researchhound said:


> American versus Canadian beer. Good idea for a thread. Course we can keep on jacking up the numbers on this one - fine with me.:yes:


Maybe not a good idea really, could lead to a major war.Then we Canadians would have to throw our 13 canoes in the water and invade yall with our 12 gauges and .22s :thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> the estimated price is the price (assuming nothing is added or removed from scope), unless you are a philanthropist painter. I am starting to think there are alot of trustafarians in the paint business.


lol...

Saw this guy in my local supplier the other day.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Scotiadawg said:


> Maybe not a good idea really, could lead to a major war.Then we Canadians would have to throw our 13 canoes in the water and invade yall with our 12 gauges and .22s :thumbsup:


Up to 13 now are ya? :whistling2:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Up to 13 now are ya? :whistling2:


yup, just got two new square sterns from Canadian Tire, even came with maple paddles ! Lot more stable than the old birch bark ones.:thumbsup:


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

I think Canuck beer is stronger for the most part by 1 % which is 6 % a bottle . Now...I just broke open that dozen of Moosehead Light because I was having such a great laugh here !!! LOL...and the wife is having one with me .


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

playedout6 said:


> I think Canuck beer is stronger for the most part by 1 % which is 6 % a bottle . Now...I just broke open that dozen of Moosehead Light because I was having such a great laugh here !!! LOL...and the wife is having one with me .


Lite ? Lite ? Oh gawd no not Lite ? . Tsk tsk such a waste of good hops:yes:. Be a genelman and let your wife have the Lite and go buy yourself a real beer like Blue !:thumbsup::yes:


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Scotiadawg said:


> Lite ? Lite ? Oh gawd no not Lite ? . Tsk tsk such a waste of good hops:yes:. Be a genelman and let your wife have the Lite and go buy yourself a real beer like Blue !:thumbsup::yes:


LOL...was a gift ...so I had to keep it . Actually the 1st one went down pretty fast and tasted ok... possibly another venture to the garage for another sample...keep an eye on my typing LOL ! 


Yes us Country painters have big hearts and small wallets...but the women luvs us all !!!


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

playedout6 said:


> LOL...was a gift ...so I had to keep it . Actually the 1st one went down pretty fast and tasted ok... possibly another venture to the garage for another sample...keep an eye on my typing LOL !
> 
> 
> Yes us Country painters have big hearts and small wallets...but the_ women luvs us all !!!_




Well I know _one_ woman nearby who would disagree about that right now, but everybody else loves me!


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Scotiadawg said:


> [/I][/U]
> 
> Well I know _one_ woman nearby who would disagree about that right now, but everybody else loves me!


 I have a feeling that we have took this off topic...the mods might not love us . I could offer them beers ! :drink::ban::stupid:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

playedout6 said:


> I have a feeling that we have took this off topic...the mods might not love us . I could offer them beers ! :drink::ban::stupid:


You don't have any beers, just Moosehead.:whistling2: And agreed we really did a hijack number here, at least I'm sober enough to apologize!.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh No! A highjacked thead!  First time *that's* ever happened!

Hey, I'm the OPer and I think beer talk is fine. IMO it kinda' fits into any civilized conversation. So, what's your *favorite* Canadian beer?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Scotiadawg said:


> oh you poor misguided soul that's just so wrong! I suppose you are used to drinking _gasp_ American beer - and it's a streatch to refer to it as such!:whistling2:.


Yup, just used to drinking american beer like Rouge Dead Guy, OPA OPA Milk Stout, anything from either Shipyard or Smuttynose, Harpoon IPA, and sooooo many other hand crafted gems. But true when in a pinch I will settle for one of those run of the mill brews from Sam Adams. 

Please, don't insult my beer snobbery. :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> The estimated price is THE price (assuming nothing is added or removed from scope), unless you are a philanthropist painter. I am starting to think there are alot of trustafarians in the paint business.



FUNNY,

But you got a point there. As I was growing up with that silver spoon in my mouth, Mummsie and Father explained to me how when I turned 25 the family vault would be opened to my every wish, dream, and trivial want. And low and behold, it happened, although the recession of the 70's did deplete my cash-out from 20 mil to a paltry 18 mil, and so I had to actually go to work. I chose this industry because I knew it was the most cushiest and provided the most sex, drugs, and rock n roll for very little actual toil. Out of bed by noon and in the bars by 6. And I never looked back.

But it wasn't just me, all my fellow trustafarians eschewed the life style of rock stars and picked up a paint brush too.

You busted us.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> Oh No! A highjacked thead!  First time *that's* ever happened!
> 
> Hey, I'm the OPer and I think beer talk is fine. IMO it kinda' fits into any civilized conversation. So, what's your *favorite* Canadian beer?


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

daArch said:


>


Blue #1, Keith's #2.:thumbsup: for me.:thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> Yup, just used to drinking american beer like Rouge Dead Guy, OPA OPA Milk Stout, anything from either Shipyard or Smuttynose, Harpoon IPA, and sooooo many other hand crafted gems. But true when in a pinch I will settle for one of those run of the mill brews from Sam Adams.
> 
> Please, don't insult my beer snobbery. :thumbup:


I won't insult it but please permit me to offer a slight correction:

It's "Rogue Dead Guy Ale" not "Rouge Dead Guy Ale" (that creates a different, kinda creepy image). It was started in Ashland OR and relocated to Newport about 60 west of here on the coast. My home town and place of birth.:thumbup:http://www.rogue.com/about/about.php

It is good stuff. Got a six pack of it as a thank you gift from a customer just before Christmas.

NOAA - National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration just recently relocated here and is located just to the right of the Brewery - just slightly out of this picture.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

My sincerest apologies for the errant finger.

I will now go have a bottle of Sam Adams Winter Lager as repentance


Not too far (but too far for a quick pint) is the Horseshoe Pub with something like 100 Beers (and Ales). and I think 75 on tap. 

Most Dead Guy I drank are bottled, but this place has (at least last time I visited) it on tap. DELICIOUS. 

Check out their beer list. 

I need another job up there soon !


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> My sincerest apologies for the errant finger.
> 
> I will now go have a bottle of Sam Adams Winter Lager as repentance
> 
> ...


Imagine there was also a well directed one as well. 

We take our micro-breweries pretty seriously around here (as I'm sure they do elsewhere). Rogue is a pretty good one. As I mentioned is was originally located in Ashland, Oregon which is located on the Rogue River. It's headwaters are located at Crater Lake which is a pretty cool place too. Geography lesson over for today.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Imagine there was also a well directed one as well.
> 
> We take our micro-breweries pretty seriously around here (as I'm sure they do elsewhere). Rogue is a pretty good one. As I mentioned is was originally located in Ashland, Oregon which is located on the Rogue River. It's headwaters are located at Crater Lake which is a pretty cool place too. Geography lesson over for today.


Yep they do. 

I want a case of Obsidian Stout for xmas next year Dan. I can not get any thing from the Deschutes Brewery here.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Yep they do.
> 
> I want a case of Obsidian Stout for xmas next year Dan. I can not get any thing from the Deschutes Brewery here.


Man I feel sorry for you. Don't know what the laws are for shipping beer across state lines but will see what I can do. Sipping on a glass of Mirror Pond Pale Ale as I type.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Yep they do.
> 
> I want a case of Obsidian Stout for xmas next year Dan. I can not get any thing from the Deschutes Brewery here.


Sorry Sean... this is the best I can do for now (like the opener?). :thumbup:
Not exactly a commercial grade picture - had a sip before taking it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I received a LARGE cardboard box via UPS some time ago (date and origin withheld to protect the guilty). In it were one twleve pack of Booneville variety pack and a few bottle of Napa (or was it Sonoma) Valley Merlot. 

Obviously more bubble pack than bottles, but they arrived here intact from somewhere distant. 

There are so many packages going through the shippers, that they really don't give a crap as long as it ain't radioactive and they are getting paid.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

WOW 152 posts. 

Started as adjustments to invoices that us all too altruistic hobbyists do and has been hijacked to shipping booze by those same boozed out hobby painters.

i think I'm posting a protest about people not be able to stay on subject.


Cabin fever officially starts in 50 1/2 hours EST


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> WOW 152 posts.
> 
> Started as adjustments to invoices that us all too altruistic hobbyists do and has been hijacked to shipping booze by those same boozed out hobby painters.
> 
> ...


Hey I'm good with it. Anytime somebody wants to steer it back to lowering the final bill - go for it. Or, stay with the beer. I'm all about hitting the 200 now.

Where's Steve? I helped him out on his _Christmas Lights_ and _Where's Ole?_ threads big time. So far I've only seen two posts from him on this thread - he needs to step up. I'm thinking he may be good for a beer post or two (three...four?):whistling2:

BTW - Special thanks to NEPS and Pat.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> I received a LARGE cardboard box via UPS some time ago (date and origin withheld to protect the guilty). In it were one twleve pack of Booneville variety pack and a few bottle of Napa (or was it Sonoma) Valley Merlot.
> 
> Obviously more bubble pack than bottles, but they arrived here intact from somewhere distant.
> 
> There are so many packages going through the shippers, that they really don't give a crap as long as it ain't radioactive and they are getting paid.


Hope I didn't piss Sean off by sending him the picture of the Mirror Pond. Kinda cruel really. I will make it up to him next Christmas.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Hope I didn't piss Sean off by sending him the picture of the Mirror Pond. Kinda cruel really. I will make it up to him next Christmas.


Naww. I have thick skin and can get a lot of Oregon micro's just nothing from Deschutes Brewery which is one of my favs.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

I would do it every time that happens so that word of mouth gets around about how honest you are. People do talk people do want to know who painted what. And when you do lower the bill that customer is going to tell every one. its good for your business. i applaud you for doing it. to many contractors out there that give us a bad rap.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Northwest_painter said:


> I would do it every time that happens so that word of mouth gets around about how honest you are. People do talk people do want to know who painted what. And when you do lower the bill that customer is going to tell every one. its good for your business. i applaud you for doing it. to many contractors out there that give us a bad rap.


Second or still first year in business?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Northwest_painter said:


> I would do it every time that happens so that word of mouth gets around about how honest you are. People do talk people do want to know who painted what. And when you do lower the bill that customer is going to tell every one. its good for your business. i applaud you for doing it. to many contractors out there that give us a bad rap.


NWP -
Thanks, but as DeArch phrased it in an earlier post - it's an "Infrequent occurrence when the stars align." It certainly isn't something I do all the time and I would never advocate that. Doing that would be a recipe for business failure. 

I've learned that this doesn't usually equate to more word of mouth advertising and I certainly don't do it to prove my honesty.

True, it only takes a few contractors to give the rest a bad rap but most of the very good ones are honest, dedicated craftsmen, and good business people who never reduce their final bill. So please don't get the two confused. I would be very concerned if you were building a business model around this particular practice.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

When I bid out a job and i know the T&M shuffle most contractors do. to pad the bottom line because the costumer has no control over what the contractor buys for the job. and then pay for the time. 
I bid out how much the materials cast and how much the labor will cost and approx amount of hours. if I bid it for ten hours and finish in six the costumer will only pay for the six hours of labor. they will pay for the materials bought and used.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Northwest_painter said:


> When I bid out a job and i know the T&M shuffle most contractors do. to pad the bottom line because the costumer has no control over what the contractor buys for the job. and then pay for the time.
> I bid out how much the materials cast and how much the labor will cost and approx amount of hours. if I bid it for ten hours and finish in six the costumer will only pay for the six hours of labor. they will pay for the materials bought and used.


Interesting, so you are doing T&M for all jobs?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

daArch said:


> Yup, just used to drinking american beer like Rouge Dead Guy, OPA OPA Milk Stout, anything from either Shipyard or Smuttynose, Harpoon IPA, and sooooo many other hand crafted gems. But true when in a pinch I will settle for one of those run of the mill brews from Sam Adams.
> 
> Please, don't insult my beer snobbery. :thumbup:


Who you kiddin', Bill? One oxy and a couple of beers and you'd be on here extolling the virtues of Schlitz and Old Milwaukee.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey now.. schlitz is a 6'er for $treefiddy..


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Who you kiddin', Bill? One oxy and a couple of beers and you'd be on here extolling the virtues of Schlitz and Old Milwaukee.


hmmmmm, may have to try that.

Do they still brew Schlitz? That was my beer of choice when I was underage and my father bought for us. He figured we should learn how to drink before we learned how to drive. 

Who was I to argue?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> hmmmmm, may have to try that.
> 
> Do they still brew Schlitz? That was my beer of choice when I was underage and my father bought for us. He figured we should learn how to drink before we learned how to drive.
> 
> Who was I to argue?


Now that is old school.


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## sendit6 (Sep 6, 2008)

*lowering the bill?*

Insanity. Can you think of any other industry or business that does this? If you think you need to do this then maybe you don't have as good a handle on estimating/bidding as you think you do.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

sendit6 said:


> Insanity. Can you think of any other industry or business that does this? If you think you need to do this then maybe you don't have as good a handle on estimating/bidding as you think you do.


Sendit6,

Methinks you may not have read the thread carefully enough to understand that this is not something done everyday, or even every other month.

And yes, I can think of other businesses/industries that IF they come in under budget it is reflected in the final invoice. My auto mechanic for one. I use him because he's NOT a dealership with manufacturers' unrealistically set pricing. 


I am beginning to wonder why the concept of giving a flexible ESTIMATE and charging less than the max is getting so many so upset. Why are some people getting so adamant at how other people run their business? Why do others CARE if some of us sometimes do NOT encounter the *worse case* scenario and are capable of only charging what it costs? Why is that INSANE to you?

Sorry, I'm just wondering why so many are getting so defensive. 

I thought we had gotten past all this and were now kicking back with a beer.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

sendit6 said:


> Insanity. Can you think of any other industry or business that does this? If you think you need to do this then maybe you don't have as good a handle on estimating/bidding as you think you do.


i can think of a couple business's that do it. more a tactic than it is failure on your part to bid correctly.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

sendit6 said:


> Insanity. Can you think of any other industry or business that does this? If you think you need to do this then maybe you don't have as good a handle on estimating/bidding as you think you do.


Thanks for your feedback.

I think "insane" may be a little strong but I won't delve any further into my mental status at this time. Maybe a subject for another thread some day. 

My landscape maintenance guy, my veterinarian, our house cleaning service, even my lawyer have done it for us in the past year or two. 

I can't speak for others but for me it's maybe something I do once a year, if even that - and believe me, it's not a huge reduction. It's also not something I feel I "need" to do, and after 40+ years in the business, I feel I have a pretty good grasp on my estimating process. My accountant agrees.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> and after 40+ years in the business, I feel I have a pretty good grasp on my estimating process. My accountant agrees.


but can YOU estimate from your office only using Google's walk-by ?


Wait 'til you have a few more years under your belt (NO NOT *BEERS*) and maybe then you'll have something to write home about - yah brash young whipper snapper :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> but can YOU estimate from your office only using Google's walk-by ?
> 
> 
> Wait 'til you have a few more years under your belt (NO NOT *BEERS*) and maybe then you'll have something to write home about - yah brash young whipper snapper :thumbup:


LOL - Haven't mastered that yet. But once Google starts showing us satellite shots of the *inside* of houses...

Yeah, I could probably still learn a few lessons from my elders. Any tips? :thumbsup:


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## sendit6 (Sep 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> Sendit6,
> 
> Methinks you may not have read the thread carefully enough to understand that this is not something done everyday, or even every other month.
> 
> ...


No I read it correctly. What gets my shorts twisted about it is this: if you go over on time or materials, do you ask for money? Prob not good practice. I guess the main thing about it is that certainly in these times, when we're all tightly bidding, and getting grossly underbid at times, every dolllar counts. If you came out a few hundred ahead of what you planned to make, good for you.

If you do top notch work, that should seal the deal for another call from that customer. 

I personally have never had anyone lower the final bill for anything.

I hear you though, you want to do it every now and then. Go ahead, throw a few hundred back for me. But you can solicit good karma other ways too. Donate it to a women's shelter or food bank. Or me.:yes:

Simply don't agree with it. I guess we'll agree to disagree.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

sendit6 said:


> I guess we'll agree to disagree.



ahhh....


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

sendit6 said:


> Go ahead, throw a few hundred back for me.


NEVER have "thrown" that much back. As I suspected, something got lost in the translation

And you are right. I would feel MUCH more reticent about charging more if I under bid. That's why I do not underbid.


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## sendit6 (Sep 6, 2008)

researchhound said:


> ahhh....


I wish. I gave up my beloved Laphroaig. Going on 3 months. For no other reason than self-preservation.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

sendit6 said:


> I wish. I gave up my beloved Laphroaig. Going on 3 months. For no other reason than self-preservation.


DAMMMIT, it's 1 am and you've just tempted me to enjoy a snifter of Cask Strength.

well at least you enjoy(ed) good single malt :thumbup: :thumbup:

I'll have one in YOUR honor :thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

sendit6 said:


> I wish. I gave up my beloved Laphroaig. Going on 3 months. For no other reason than self-preservation.


That's a pretty good reason - congratulations.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

sendit6 said:


> I wish. I gave up my beloved Laphroaig. Going on 3 months. For no other reason than self-preservation.


 
Thats a great way a putting it:thumbup:


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