# Hourly rates



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Just curious - when I bid a home for $5,500 - and tally the results at the end of the job, $500 for materials and 200 man-hours of labor. Isn't that exactly the same thing as saying you got $25 per man-hour? Is there any source of confusion there?

Now I am not saying you go to the homeowner and tell them your rates and tally the hours at the end. I am talking about a fixed cost proposal and figuring out what the man-hour rate turned out to be at the end.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

yes...............


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

:yes:


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

If you are bidding a job by the square foot your goal should be to make more than your hourly rate. When we do back charges on commercial jobs its almost always done by hourly rate because its cheaper in the long run 99 percent of the time. If you bid anything you are generally going to make sure you have enough money in it to make a good profit.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Just curious - when I bid a home for $5,500 - and tally the results at the end of the job, $500 for materials and 200 man-hours of labor. Isn't that exactly the same thing as saying you got $25 per man-hour? Is there any source of confusion there?
> 
> Now I am not saying you go to the homeowner and tell them your rates and tally the hours at the end. I am talking about a fixed cost proposal and figuring out what the man-hour rate turned out to be at the end.


 
Your ratio is a bit screwed up?

What is your point here?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Get ready Harry! He found out another contractor did a job for $5,500 and he can't understand how the guy can do work for $25 ph.
His reasoning will only confound you further.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Its more grim than that. That is the direct billing labor rate. To factor true man hour billing rates you have to account for overhead percentage and gross profit margin. 

To give you a roundabout, if an employee is being paid $15 per hour and you desire a 15% gross margin, you may need to bill him at nearly $45/hr. This is the talk soup that so many business owners ignore and it can put you out of business in a hurry.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't know what part of the country you are from but $25 per hour you would be out of business where I live. Example pay your employee $15 and other expenses you end up with nothing at the end of the day.


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## Scottclarkpainting (Jul 17, 2010)

Employee's get 25 an hour here and working for yourself you can get up to 70 an hour.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Learn how to bid correctly, Plainpainter, and maybe you'll make more money and be a happier painter.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Scottclarkpainting said:


> Employee's get 25 an hour here and working for yourself you can get up to 70 an hour.


AU here I come. I hope I can get all my equipment through customs.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

This was never intended as a thread about whether or not $25/man-hour is enough money to make a business or not.

Would you be happier if I said $10,500 - $500 for materials, 200 man-hours. In this case it would be correct to say the company man-hour rate for this job turned out to be $50 per man-hour - correct? I am not saying anything going to a customer about charging time and materials, or what is enough to make money on - just what the heck you call a man-hour. If you estimated 200 man-hours for this job plus $500 in materials, then you are basing your estimate on a $50 man-hour. But lets say you missed the mark and instead ended up with 250 man-hours between more areas that needed more scraping and fussy homeowners. Now your man-hour on that falls down to $40 per man-hour.


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I'm confused....now I don't know what to charge..:blink:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dan

One thing to take into account is that a $5500 exterior will mean different things across different models. A crew of three can do it more efficiently and perhaps spreading overhead better than a solo painter. A crew of 6, maybe better still. A man hour is not always a man hour, except on paper. I wish it was that clinical, but it's not. 

That being said, the above assumes that the crew of 1 or 3 or 6 are legit and being run properly which may not always be the case in the paint world. 

Results will vary. That's why i say it's pointless to analyze the hypothetical too much. I find it's best to get out there and do it, analyze your own results and build on your own data. In the end, the only competition that matters is yourself.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

you guys are reading way too much into this. I is thinking maybe y'all as thick as Klaw.

After deducting materials from the total gross billing to the customer - you divide the remainder by the amount of man-hours that were logged and that's the man-hour rate for the job.

I am sure this isn't always a consistent number, some homes you make a better man-hour than others. And I am not arguing if a 1-man crew is more efficient than a 6-man crew. But in the end you do compute this figure to see if you are on track? Maybe? Or d'yall just assume because you are $50/hr painters - that every job comes out to that?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have been doing a little experiment lately which I was going to start a biz t zone thread about but then I was all like nah f t s. Anyways, for about 6-8 weeks I have been going around solo doing small jobs...everything from picking off an exterior, to spraying out an interior, to shop work and pressure washing decks. At the end of the week and month, I compare my numbers to what my guys are doing on the jobs. I can beat them proportionately, but not by much, and it's no way to live for too long at least not for me because I am old and can't paint like I used to. I wish I could say that I make up for it in smarts and experience but that would be nothing but gross self aggrandizement. 

What's this thread about anyways? Quit beating around the bush. Sorry, poor choice of words.


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> you guys are reading way too much into this. I is thinking maybe y'all as thick as Klaw.
> 
> After deducting materials from the total gross billing to the customer - you divide the remainder by the amount of man-hours that were logged and that's the man-hour rate for the job.
> 
> I am sure this isn't always a consistent number, some homes you make a better man-hour than others. And I am not arguing if a 1-man crew is more efficient than a 6-man crew. But in the end you do compute this figure to see if you are on track? Maybe? Or d'yall just assume because you are $50/hr painters - that every job comes out to that?


I'm sure everyone here looks at each jobs numbers to make sure they are on track and to help with future estimating.. How would you be able to run a business if you don't? Im with VP, I have no idea what this thread is actually about.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Its the man/hr rate for the customer but what good is that data? 

We are all jumping to a conclusion perhaps but it is based on your consistent history of cursing everyone on their pricing and your terrible market conditions. 

Man hours are a total of your labor pool on a job. 20 guys working one ten hour day is 200 man hours.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ken - this thread is a result of me saying that I got out of this industry when I was making $25/man-hour. Then it resulted in a 9+ posts back and forth with 'he' who shall remain nameless about what I meant what a man-hour was. To the point I was about to punch out the computer screen.

Now I am not saying you can make it in this business at $25/man-hour nor am I saying you can't. Nor am I saying how I arrived at proposal amounts when I quoted exteriors - perhaps it was a little of guessing, asking a mentor what he thought it was worth, & a little seance with a Ouija board. 

But in the end when you calculate the effective man-hour rate after all is said and done - it was {[gross billing] - [materials]} / [Total man-hours] = [Man-hour rate]

And I assume when guys say they are charging $50/man-hour - that they evaluate this equation after their jobs and on the average they are making $50 per hour. Simple enough question, right?


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Ken - this thread is a result of me saying that I got out of this industry when I was making $25/man-hour. Then it resulted in a 9+ posts back and forth with 'he' who shall remain nameless about what I meant what a man-hour was. To the point I was about to punch out the computer screen.
> 
> Now I am not saying you can make it in this business at $25/man-hour nor am I saying you can't. Nor am I saying how I arrived at proposal amounts when I quoted exteriors - perhaps it was a little of guessing, asking a mentor what he thought it was worth, & a little seance with a Ouija board.
> 
> ...


Dan - This is "he". When you state charging $25 per man hour - are you saying a 100 hour job - you will charge the client $2500? Without a bunch of other numbers will you please just answer my question. If the answer is no then a lot of what I've been saying is not applicable.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

these days when you pay a guy 20 bucks and hours and it cost you 31.50 per hour, you have to make more than 25 or your in big trouble


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Dan - This is "he". When you state charging $25 per man hour - are you saying a 100 hour job - you will charge the client $2500? Without a bunch of other numbers will you please just answer my question. If the answer is no then a lot of what I've been saying is not applicable.


K - when I started out in this business, I didn't have sophisticated estimating programs, or even an excel spreadsheet. Neither did I know about unit estimating or using production numbers to come up with estimates. Nor did I know about Brian Phillips.

What I did do was usually confer with a Mentor what he thought a job was worth, asked my friends/peers in the painting business what they would charge, etc. And I used my limited experience and tried to come up with a price. I hadn't painted since the 90's as I went the college/corporate route until I got laid off in the 21st century. I did this for 4 seasons - gradually upping my price as I grew my knowledge base and what I wanted to make. Generally the bigger the house, the more I asked for, I was using the 'eyeball' method of estimation. By the '07 season, it came ahead where I was starting to be 30, 40, and sometimes 50% more than my competition - with many many complaints about my pricing. My final last straw was where I had asked for 11 grand for a repaint for an oldie New England home with 110 years of paint buildup - they had estimates that ranged from $5,000 to $7,500 and I was at $11,000. And they bickered and bickered - and I finally sold them on the quality of my work - as I had been doing many homes in the area.

After I was finally done with the house, and thinking I had barely any money left in my accounts. What was wrong? So I conferred with fellow painters in my area and we all basically bitched about the same thing - 'The worker is always making more money than the boss' And it was true.
So realizing I had started to take notes in '05, more in '06, and finally by '07 I was routinely taking notes of each jobsite and total man-hours accrued and materials, etc. What I found was I never did better than $25 per man-hour, except for a few smaller jobs. Even though my estimates were higher than my competition.

I was getting work up until the '07 consistently - and at the pricing I was asking, work suddenly dropped off the cliff. Realizing that all my finances were catching up to me - even though I had been lucky with some highly profitiable jobs here and there in roofing, siding, etc. My luck finally ran out. I either had to go cheaper than $25 per man-hour by hiring illegal immigrants like all my competition - or just pack it in. And I decided to pack it in. I have since given over 30-40 estimates to homeowners since '07 using my labor rates at $40, $45 per hour. And have never won anything to date.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dan

I promise, I am not being a smart ass. If the above is true, why do you keep the name? And for the love of god do not answer "google"!


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

You could try to go and work for somebody.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Plain,

Maybe you suck at production...ever think of that?

I read a lot about dollar values per hour but the only way to realize these numbers is to pump out the work.

My father told me years ago, never to hire a pipe smoker cause they tend to be too mellow and they spend half the day lighting their pipe 

You remind me of a guy who analyzes way too much and that alone will kill production...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

StefanC said:


> You could try to go and work for somebody.


No one really does that.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Harry said:


> Plain,
> 
> Maybe you suck at production...ever think of that?
> 
> ...


Damn man, I thought I didn't like you, now I don't know what to think. lol


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Damn man, I thought I didn't like you, now I don't know what to think. lol


I guess that's one of us on the fence...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

:laughing:


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> No one really does that.


I think at this point it's the only option for him. He may end up offing himself if he doesn't find something to keep him occupied.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Plain,
> 
> Maybe you suck at production...ever think of that?
> 
> ...


Harry

I'm a big fan of Dan. When I read his account above, I had two initial reactions. I'll preface by saying that I have talked process, product and production with Dan enough over the years to believe that he is personally capable of Herculean production.

Where I believe the wheels fall off are in management of others and potentially sales. Interpersonal skills are a much bigger part of paint contracting than most are willing to admit. It stands to reason in residential. Think about it, the most successful contractors are usually personable and charming. Look at Aaron and Ewing. Aaron looks like a dead president and Ewing is a loose cannon rolling around the deck, bouncing off the walls. But both possess a wit and charm and are smart enough to know when and how to use it.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Harry said:


> I guess that's one of us on the fence...


LOL, that hurt man. I guess I will start using a two inch brush now.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

StefanC said:


> I think at this point it's the only option for him. He may end up offing himself if he doesn't find something to keep him occupied.


You don't get Dan. He is actually happier now than when he was painting. He gets more pleasure out of being a spectator in the paint arena than a player. I think it's awesome.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> K - when I started out in this business, I didn't have sophisticated estimating programs, or even an excel spreadsheet. Neither did I know about unit estimating or using production numbers to come up with estimates. Nor did I know about Brian Phillips.
> 
> What I did do was usually confer with a Mentor what he thought a job was worth, asked my friends/peers in the painting business what they would charge, etc. And I used my limited experience and tried to come up with a price. I hadn't painted since the 90's as I went the college/corporate route until I got laid off in the 21st century. I did this for 4 seasons - gradually upping my price as I grew my knowledge base and what I wanted to make. Generally the bigger the house, the more I asked for, I was using the 'eyeball' method of estimation. By the '07 season, it came ahead where I was starting to be 30, 40, and sometimes 50% more than my competition - with many many complaints about my pricing. My final last straw was where I had asked for 11 grand for a repaint for an oldie New England home with 110 years of paint buildup - they had estimates that ranged from $5,000 to $7,500 and I was at $11,000. And they bickered and bickered - and I finally sold them on the quality of my work - as I had been doing many homes in the area.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your honesty - Plain. Most folks on here would not do as much. Thanks for posting your realistic adventures.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> I'm a big fan of Dan. When I read his account above, I had two initial reactions. I'll preface by saying that I have talked process, product and production with Dan enough over the years to believe that he is personally capable of Herculean production.
> 
> Where I believe the wheels fall off are in management of others and potentially sales. Interpersonal skills are a much bigger part of paint contracting than most are willing to admit. It stands to reason in residential. Think about it, the most successful contractors are usually personable and charming. Look at Aaron and Ewing. Aaron looks like a dead president and Ewing is a loose cannon rolling around the deck, bouncing off the walls. But both possess a wit and charm and are smart enough to know when and how to use it.


Herculean production? lol


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

StefanC said:


> I think at this point it's the only option for him. He may end up offing himself if he doesn't find something to keep him occupied.


I didn't mean to be contrite, but have you ever seen a post anywhere that went:

Hey guys

I finally did it. I got sick of bill collectors calling, services being shut off, not being able to provide for my family, driving a piece of crap 15 year old truck that I can't keep gas in, working my ass off with nothing to show for it and homeowners telling me I cost too much. I took a job with a paint company and have rediscovered my love of painting. I'm making more money, all I have to do is show up and paint. I work 40 hours now, evenings and weekends are mine.





We would sooner die in poverty than make the man rich.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> I'm a big fan of Dan. When I read his account above, I had two initial reactions. I'll preface by saying that I have talked process, product and production with Dan enough over the years to believe that he is personally capable of Herculean production.
> 
> Where I believe the wheels fall off are in management of others and potentially sales. Interpersonal skills are a much bigger part of paint contracting than most are willing to admit. It stands to reason in residential. Think about it, the most successful contractors are usually personable and charming. Look at Aaron and Ewing. Aaron looks like a dead president and Ewing is a loose cannon rolling around the deck, bouncing off the walls. But both possess a wit and charm and are smart enough to know when and how to use it.


So I look like money:thumbsup:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Harry said:


> Plain,
> 
> Maybe you suck at production...ever think of that?
> 
> ...


In all fairness, Harry, yes I did ask myself that question - does my production rates suck? That's why I took notes - but then again how relevent are my personal production rates when I have 3-4 men working for me - ultimately their production is my production. 

As to my own production - when it comes to brushing doors, I never seem to be as fast as what folks post here. No matter what I do I can't seem to beat 12-13 per side on a 6 panel wood door - and that's making sure I do a neat job with no drips coming from the inset panels. Walls are where I shine. My upper end in a residential setting is going into a 10x10 room with 8 foot tall walls - and I can cut & roll the walls in 60 minutes flat - and do a a perfect job. 

Exterior - to give an example I had 3 dormers on a cape roof to paint just trim - between setting up ladders, nailing stakes into the ground as the ladders were flat to the roof - moving tarps around - miscellaneous caulking - and finally painting. I did all three from setup to breakup in 3 hours. 

As to workers - I would observe their production and then I would stop and examine other jobsites and look how their workers performed - heck you can jump on youtube and watch a bunch of videos of painters showing their painters work - and I never saw anything that indicated that my workers were any slower than the average of anyone else. 

I know a bunch of painters that always bragged about how fast they were and when I told them what I could do - they thought it was slow. But not one of them, except one, when I worked along with them could keep up with me. 

Have I employed 'slow' painters and overpaid them in the past? Absolutley, but in the end even a slow painter production rates is only going to affect your production rates a total of 10, 15 maybe 20%. Which doesn't explain the 70% + differential in pricing I came up against.

Finally I registered for Angie's list, where homeowners talk about work done to their homes and the price guys charged. And I would read how painters would come into a home and paint like 4 rooms and a hallway - and then take down all the shutters off the exterior, wash home and paint all the soffits, cornerboards, Windows, and finally reinstall all the shutters prepped and painted on a New England Cape house for $2,000 total, and then read comments how the homeowner felt the paid a 'fair' price. 

At this point I felt the writing was on the wall, 'GET OUT' So I got the hell out.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Appreciate your honesty - Plain. Most folks on here would not do as much. Thanks for posting your realistic adventures.


Well, 'he', who shall remain nameless - I am glad you were finally able to extract something useful from my post. As bad as that story depicts my neck of the woods - from what I understand, 3 years later things are far far far worse. I'm glad I don't worry about paying the bills anymore from painting - really glad.

And for the record - I have never known anyone in my local area talk about man-hours, production rates, unit pricing, etc. To this day when I ask guys how much they made on a job - they seriously have no clue, half of them are still paying workers under the table, and don't keep track of how many hours they were on a job. It's only on these forums where everyone seems to know all this data. The only guys who ever talk about man-hour, are the guys that don't give estimates - the ones that work for time and materials.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

On a side not any time a HO says thats price seems fair, you just underbid the job lol.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Well, 'he', who shall remain nameless - I am glad you were finally able to extract something useful from my post. As bad as that story depicts my neck of the woods - from what I understand, 3 years later things are far far far worse. I'm glad I don't worry about paying the bills anymore from painting - really glad.
> 
> And for the record - I have never known anyone in my local area talk about man-hours, production rates, unit pricing, etc. To this day when I ask guys how much they made on a job - they seriously have no clue, half of them are still paying workers under the table, and don't keep track of how many hours they were on a job. It's only on these forums where everyone seems to know all this data. The only guys who ever talk about man-hour, are the guys that don't give estimates - the ones that work for time and materials.


This is true but at the same time most guy's know if they are making good on a job or not, I would think, at least I would hope so.
I go into a job knowing pretty close of what it takes as for a material and labor, and most part I'm right on, but I do error on the safe said also. I have to say the 25 dollar per man hour you talk about needs to be at least double that amount in this day and time even if you pay under the table this would be low.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> In all fairness, Harry, yes I did ask myself that question - does my production rates suck? That's why I took notes - but then again how relevent are my personal production rates when I have 3-4 men working for me - ultimately their production is my production.
> 
> As to my own production - when it comes to brushing doors, I never seem to be as fast as what folks post here. No matter what I do I can't seem to beat 12-13 per side on a 6 panel wood door - and that's making sure I do a neat job with no drips coming from the inset panels. Walls are where I shine. My upper end in a residential setting is going into a 10x10 room with 8 foot tall walls - and I can cut & roll the walls in 60 minutes flat - and do a a perfect job.
> 
> ...


Dan, if we change this and that and the other thing, we can turn an orange into an apple. Why don't you know your production rates???

I worked with tons of guys in the field and let me tell you most average HALF of what a top notch painter averages, period.

You're throwing percentages around but treuth is, you don't know what the percentage difference is...you just said it.

I play with production rates every single day and they do matter.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Harry said:


> Dan, if we change this and that and the other thing, we can turn an orange into an apple. Why don't you know your production rates???
> 
> I worked with tons of guys in the field and let me tell you most average HALF of what a top notch painter averages, period.
> 
> ...


I really dont think residential production rates are that hard to figure out, and from reading Dans post over the years I beleive he does have a grasp on his production rates now. what say you dan??


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> I really dont think residential production rates are that hard to figure out, and from reading Dans post over the years I beleive he does have a grasp on his production rates now. what say you dan??


Well, he just said that he doesn't know them. And "feeling" them ain't good enough. I deal with minute changes in the industry from day to day and it matters.

Now, just going by what he says, if the guys are short 20% on their production rate...his final numbers are going to be close to 15% higher.

What part of this isn't clear?

There's no guessing when it comes to bidding these days...you need a handle on your production rates!

You need to MONITOR your production all the time.

BTW, I've known dan for about as long as all of you 

Seriously...how the hell can you guys price and compete without knowing your exact (or damn close to it) production rates?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Well, 'he', who shall remain nameless - I am glad you were finally able to extract something useful from my post. As bad as that story depicts my neck of the woods - from what I understand, 3 years later things are far far far worse. I'm glad I don't worry about paying the bills anymore from painting - really glad.
> 
> And for the record - I have never known anyone in my local area talk about man-hours, production rates, unit pricing, etc. To this day when I ask guys how much they made on a job - they seriously have no clue, half of them are still paying workers under the table, and don't keep track of how many hours they were on a job. It's only on these forums where everyone seems to know all this data. The only guys who ever talk about man-hour, are the guys that don't give estimates - the ones that work for time and materials.


Dan, you're full of caca.

I know tons of contractors in your area and every damn one of them uses production rates...or at least they do once they've met me.

Come on, I've seen you complain about the economy, the competition, etc. yet I know fellas who work right near you..who are doing very well...booked and making a good profit! They take vacations year after year, paid for by their painting businesses...and they work in the same towns as you? How do you explain that?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Well, I know some painters price based on how much they think they can get for the job and do not break it down to hours of productions.

I break it down to production rates as best as possible (some residential rooms that have a lot of detail for cutting around trim work on the walls are not really worth measuring since visually seeing the room is more accurate than using standard production rates.
The wage you pay your employees should also balance out with their personal production rate and the target rate you expect. If someone is slower, they should be paid less so it corrects for the slower production. If someone is faster, they get paid more. Now, it all must average out so that rate you based the estimate on is lower or the same as the average production rate of the crew.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

you fellas have taken a perfectly good gig and ruined it all with your fancy numbers, deadlines, production rates and what not.

im shocked anyone would do this to themselves.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

You know, with all the more analytical types here (myself included), if I had to work for someone on this board, I think it would be High Fibre. 

Laid back and probably pretty fun to work with I am guessing and probably does some pretty high quality work while he's at it.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Well, I know some painters price based on how much they think they can get for the job and do not break it down to hours of productions.
> 
> I break it down to production rates as best as possible (some residential rooms that have a lot of detail for cutting around trim work on the walls are not really worth measuring since visually seeing the room is more accurate than using standard production rates.
> The wage you pay your employees should also balance out with their personal production rate and the target rate you expect. If someone is slower, they should be paid less so it corrects for the slower production. If someone is faster, they get paid more. Now, it all must average out so that rate you based the estimate on is lower or the same as the average production rate of the crew.


Dean, I disagree and for good reasons of course.

Visual perception changes, period.

How do you figure it's more accurate when we estimate billions of dollars per year and come out within 5% of what we figured?

What about the hundreds of thousand of jobs that are bid by prints, yet stay within a 5% or better accuracy?

Your opinion is just that...an opinion, not based on fact at all.

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just passionate about what I know to be true as I see it daily...and from a large sample of contractors all over the USA and Canada.

Obviously, painters have been bidding by the eye forever...but they cannot perform surgical strikes, going head to head with their competition "if they can't get there from here".


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My opinion is based on fact. Most straight forward residential repaint interiors I bid extremely close whether I eyeball it or measure it. I have done it both ways and compared. Before I started measuring more, I found the my "eye ball" was very closely calibrated to the actual production rate when I started calculating stuff out more. I used to walk into a room, look at it and assign the number of hours and gallons I thought it would take without measuring anything. Now, unless the room is very difficult to measure it, I shoot the dimensions with a laser measure and calculate based on production rates and materials based on the sq. ft. The prices I come up with are VERY close using either method. 

I just looked at a residential repaint interior that had a coffered ceiling to paint plus walls that had a lot of minor offset edges and set backs, arches around set back doors ways with very tight fitting trim to cut around, etc. If I used standard production rates, I would have estimated low. Now, I know how the "factor" system works for adding on for difficult things, but that really comes down to experience to know if he extra detail add 10% more time or 30% more time.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry

I kind of agree with you. Majority of my estimating is from prints, and often as much as a year prior to commencement of work. Sometimes the biatching on here seems pretty Mickey mouse.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DeanV said:


> My opinion is based on fact. Most straight forward residential repaint interiors I bid extremely close whether I eyeball it or measure it. I have done it both ways and compared. Before I started measuring more, I found the my "eye ball" was very closely calibrated to the actual production rate when I started calculating stuff out more. I used to walk into a room, look at it and assign the number of hours and gallons I thought it would take without measuring anything. Now, unless the room is very difficult to measure it, I shoot the dimensions with a laser measure and calculate based on production rates and materials based on the sq. ft. The prices I come up with are VERY close using either method.
> 
> I just looked at a residential repaint interior that had a coffered ceiling to paint plus walls that had a lot of minor offset edges and set backs, arches around set back doors ways with very tight fitting trim to cut around, etc. If I used standard production rates, I would have estimated low. Now, I know how the "factor" system works for adding on for difficult things, but that really comes down to experience to know if he extra detail add 10% more time or 30% more time.


Dean, if you're talking about the "seen one, seen em all" deal...then I agree...but once you step out of your COMFORT zone...I disagree.

I'm not talking cookie cutter type projects...


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

dont ever leave your comfort zone

its not very comfortable


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For the outside of your comfort zone projects, yes measuring is absolutely essential. I believe though that you still need to have that eye for things that just do lend themselves well for measuring to adjust the final price on some projects.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> I kind of agree with you. Majority of my estimating is from prints, and often as much as a year prior to commencement of work. Sometimes the biatching on here seems pretty Mickey mouse.


VP, i don't mind the beatching, it's good for learning.

If you read my post to Dean, you'll see that I do agree with him if talking about cookie cutter type deals. The eyeball method (really the brain's memory and perception) works well in FAMILIAR territory.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DeanV said:


> For the outside of your comfort zone projects, yes measuring is absolutely essential. I believe though that you still need to have that eye for things that just do lend themselves well for measuring to adjust the final price on some projects.


Well, no you don't need the eye. What would you do if the job wasn't built yet...only existed on prints?

Deal is...you CAN use the eye and the eye CAN be pretty accurate...but the production rate route can ALWAYS be accurate, coupled with good proposal skills...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> VP, i don't mind the beathing, it's good for learning.
> 
> If you read my post to Dean, you'll see that I do agree with him if talking about cookie cutter type deals. The eyeball method (really the brain's memory and perception) works well in FAMILIAR territory.


I agree. It gets tiresome listening to guys who lost the 12x12 bedroom with colonial trim. One coat on walls and trim when they priced it at $450 and lost to the $199 guy, or the $99 guy. Who cares. Move forward.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I agree. It gets tiresome listening to guys who lost the 12x12 bedroom with colonial trim. One coat on walls and trim when they priced it at $450 and lost to the $199 guy, or the $99 guy. Who cares. Move forward.


What does your post mean? lol


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Harry said:


> Well, he just said that he doesn't know them. And "feeling" them ain't good enough. I deal with minute changes in the industry from day to day and it matters.
> 
> *Feeling how long it takes to paint a bedroom for one guy doing repaint is a little differnt from industrial, as you have said the game changes when their its a bigger playing field, *
> 
> ...


I do enjoy learning from the old wise one, :notworthy:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> What does your post mean? lol


Ok, lol, I'll stop beating around the bush.

When I hear guys complaining of losing the one bedroom job estimated at $450, with a best case 15% net ($67.50?) I wonder to myself how fired up I'd getnover that amount of money. That's not even a tank of gas.

It raises the question of lead quality. Get better leads. Which means build a better business, which means get off your butt and invest the time, money and energy it takes to do so. There is a new generation of armchair paint contractors who want to hang a shingle, get google rank, hook up with a few lgs and wait by the phone. Like any law of averages, it might just work. I wouldn't bet my livelihood on it though.

Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> I do enjoy learning from the old wise one, :notworthy:


Dave, you probably meant to say "commercial"?

You were nicer when you "knew" you didn't have all the answers 

Seriously, I'm not going to give a class here but if you want me to help you, prove to you anything you need proven...I'd be happy to...and I'll do it for free....providing you come back here and be my loudest spokesman.

I don't care what sector we're talking about, residential, commercial or industrial. Unless we're talking about specific production rates for specific substrates (nobody mentioned specifics), it doesn't matter.

Listen, everything that gets painted has a production rate...it's so simple, it's comical.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Harry said:


> Dave, you probably meant to say "commercial"?
> *Probaly*
> 
> You were nicer when you "knew" you didn't have all the answers
> ...


Im glad your posting Harry:yes:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> Im glad your posting Harry:yes:


Dave, after re-reading my post, I realized that I chose wrong words...I shouldn't have, I apologize.

I've known you for a long time now and you've come a long way, we both have! I learned many things from many people..on these forums and I'm glad you're posting too.

It's not hard to track production rates, although guys don't generally like it when you stand by their side with a stopwatch mentality.

But...if you give a specific task and simply walk away and come back 10 minutes or an hour later, you'll have a pretty good idea of what the day's production should be. Just like in the hospital...they don't need to take your pulse for a minute...they can take it for ten seconds and multiply by six.

Naturally, if you're on residential and you can't be on the job, it's not hard out figure out what a guy did in a day, providing a crew didn't average what they did. I've seen this...where a flunky gets a get out of jail free card because his productions are mixed in with the other guys of the crew. Usually, it doesn't take long though to weed out guys like this. But you probably realize a lot of this.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Harry said:


> I worked with tons of guys in the field and let me tell you most average HALF of what a top notch painter averages, period.


Whatever, Harry, I'd like to see you cut a dark blue against stark white colonial trim, above baseboards, around door ways, windows, against ceiling and do it perfectly at a 320 SF per Hour rate. It's one thing for you commercial guys to brag about how much office space wall you can paint. I am talking in a high end residential.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Commercial and residential is a completely different mentality. Even mid-level residential.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Whatever, Harry, I'd like to see you cut a dark blue against stark white colonial trim, above baseboards, around door ways, windows, against ceiling and do it perfectly at a 320 SF per Hour rate. It's one thing for you commercial guys to brag about how much office space wall you can paint. I am talking in a high end residential.


Dan, try to contain your emotions 

Why are you convinced that just because I work in the commercial sector now that I can't and didn't get down and dirty in residential, high end and landlord specials???

I'll bet ya that I can paint anything you can paint, probably faster and neater...how bout that? Bet me and we'll do it, ok?

I also think you're FOS in regards to painting 320 sf of dark blue against stark white in one hour, perfectly, without tape, etc..

But really, the above has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted...and what does this have to do with your workers?

And if you for some wild reason did pull off what you claim...why ain't ya making money?

If you don't have a high overhead and your production is "herculean"...why are you just a sad statistic on the pimple of the painting industry? Tell me that?

I can play with the best of em and you know it...I don't mind arguing real facts but don't try to insult my intelligence either...I've done too much homework...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

320 is tops - I can average 270-280, 250 when I am just 'cruising' over the whole day. Even with those production rates - on some high end interiors {not exterior} I was able to get $40 per man hour after materials were deducted - and folks told me I was 70% higher than the G.C's sub.

Harry - we live close by, how about a 'paint out' that will be filmed and posted on youtube. I'll cut and roll a room at my fastest speed against yours. You provide the room of course.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I expect 200 sq. ft/hr over the course of a day. This assumes a two coat paint job on walls and includes set-up, tear down and minimal prep. If it was a one coat job, the rate would be lowered since set-up and prep would consume a larger percentage of the job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Walls are the easiest thing we do. Even my slowest guy can cut and roll them pretty quick. The true measure of a good painter is the ability to multi-task trim, windows, doors, case, base, crown, built-ins in multiple rooms while teaming with others and maintaining the balance of quality and production.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

True dat, VP! It is always a happy day when trim work is finished on new construction and walls get started. It always annoys me when you spend days filling and sanding trim (still looks the same), prime it (still looks the same white as the pre-prime), caulk it (still looks the same), first finish coat (still looks white), final finish coat (still looks white). 

And the next day the wall paint barely touches the walls and everyone says "Wow, it looks like you are finally making some progress." Makes me want to shoot someone.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> True dat, VP! It is always a happy day when trim work is finished on new construction and walls get started. It always annoys me when you spend days filling and sanding trim (still looks the same), prime it (still looks the same white as the pre-prime), caulk it (still looks the same), first finish coat (still looks white), final finish coat (still looks white).
> 
> And the next day the wall paint barely touches the walls and everyone says "Wow, it looks like you are finally making some progress." Makes me want to shoot someone.


There's been a lot of that phenomenon in my life lately. About 4 nc's worth, conveniently stacked right on top of each other on the schedule.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> You probably have me beat with doors - but then again are you talking metal frame doors? I can hand paint a gallon of oil semigloss in a work day - I have no idea how that translates into doors?
> 
> But personally, Harry, I see the majority of work that commercial guys consider acceptable - and it wouldn't be pass muster in a medium/high end residential setting.
> 
> Not to mention Harry - you don't don't know how much paint has changed in 16 years - paint has that nagging ability to make your brush slow way way down - it ain't the 'water' it use to be back in the 80's. Try spreading California linseed 'quick' dry primer on cedar clapboard - I doubt you'll be anywhere close to your production rates of yesteryear. Heck try brushing out a door in Aura - and let me know if you think you'll still be able to do 32 doors a day without your arms falling off..


Plain, you're assuming again...
I have painted and I know how to use the newer materials. I just haven't painted for money...

As for your example...what are you painting?

BTW...I have a great idea...

My buddy (who has posted many times on these boards) in Vermont is going through some tough times. His family problems have cut into his livelihood. If you want to race me, I'd like to do it there. I've never met him yet but he's one of my best friends.

I'll do it for a good cause...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> You probably have me beat with doors - but then again are you talking metal frame doors? I can hand paint a gallon of oil semigloss in a work day - I have no idea how that translates into doors


Plainpainter,

According to the Sherwin Williams Pro class Alkyd Interior Semi gloss TDS, at a coverage rate of 350-400 sf per gallon, and two sides of a door plus casings at roughly 52 sf, you would have only painted approximately 8 doors if your work rate is 1 gallon per 8 hr day. Even if you stretched the paint to 500 sf per gallon, that's still barely 10 doors.

My money's on Harry.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Plainpainter,
> 
> According to the Sherwin Williams Pro class Alkyd Interior Semi gloss TDS, at a coverage rate of 350-400 sf per gallon, and two sides of a door plus casings at roughly 52 sf, you would have only painted approximately 8 doors if your work rate is 1 gallon per 8 hr day. Even if you stretched the paint to 500 sf per gallon, that's still barely 10 doors.
> 
> My money's on Harry.


 
Harry never said casings - if he thinks he can hand paint 32 doors and the frames in a day - then I know he's full of caca. If I remember correctly, a gallon of oil paint will do 12 doors and their 'casings' both sides one coat - and that's colonial trim not the slim crap in newer homes. Not to mention - what kind of doors is he talking about - those hollow steel doors made to look like 6 panel doors - well heck I can paint 32 of those in a day as well.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Harry never said casings - if he thinks he can hand paint 32 doors and the frames in a day - then I know he's full of caca. If I remember correctly, a gallon of oil paint will do 12 doors and their 'casings' both sides one coat - and that's colonial trim not the slim crap in newer homes. Not to mention - what kind of doors is he talking about - those hollow steel doors made to look like 6 panel doors - well heck I can paint 32 of those in a day as well.


Nah, i'm talking about the typical 6 panel masonite or wood doors.

If I remember correctly, I can average about 50 frames per day....that's about 850sf...less production area-wise than doors because of the cutting on either side.

Simply, I'd do 4 doors per hour for 8 hours. That's a lot of brushing, I don't care who ya are...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

7.5 minutes per side is pretty admirable. I'd like to see the quality of the doors at that rate. Are we talking doors attached to their frames - or where these lined up against a wall or something or on benches in a shop? Just curious - I can't seem to touch those rates in a residential setting with doors in their frames. I've even tried pre-rolling with those sausage rollers and 'tipping' them off. Still, either lint or something else gets in the way, and production never seems to improve. With todays paints, everytime I load up the paint so it doesn't drag and allows me to go faster - then I end up with tons of paint pooling in the corners - which drastically alters production, as your constantly going back to address the dripping and trying to brush them out - and not affect the sheen as the latex is drying up on you. 12-13 minutes per side max seems to be a threshold without worrying about having a substandard finish.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> 7.5 minutes per side is pretty admirable. I'd like to see the quality of the doors at that rate. Are we talking doors attached to their frames - or where these lined up against a wall or something or on benches in a shop? Just curious - I can't seem to touch those rates in a residential setting with doors in their frames. I've even tried pre-rolling with those sausage rollers and 'tipping' them off. Still, either lint or something else gets in the way, and production never seems to improve. With todays paints, everytime I load up the paint so it doesn't drag and allows me to go faster - then I end up with tons of paint pooling in the corners - which drastically alters production, as your constantly going back to address the dripping and trying to brush them out - and not affect the sheen as the latex is drying up on you. 12-13 minutes per side max seems to be a threshold without worrying about having a substandard finish.


Dan,
I'm not a flunky, I know what quality is.

I'm sure there are others here who can come close or match me here,. I don't know what the big deal is...


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Dan you always know the important stuff to focus on lol


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## timalpha1 (Mar 20, 2012)

dust it off and ride again...


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