# what happened to quality???



## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Hey guys! I've been painting for 12 years now and I've noticed something about the painting contractors in my area (lynchburg, va). They don't care about the quality of their work. The last company I worked for has been in business for 33 years and would try everything in the book to (just get the job done). This includes charging for primer and 2 coats of paint but then only putting on one, chauking everything up but spray right over it w/o giving it time to setup and just about anything you can think of to save time and money. I take pride in my work and had enough so I switched companies to a contractor whose been in business 43 years and its even worse here. I know its all about money but how can these guys stay in business for so long doing shoddy work and procedures?


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## vividpainting (Aug 14, 2011)

Customer service is almost like a thing of the past these days. I would imagine many people will not return to such a person, i have a lot of people that i work for that have had bad experiences and its why i acquired them. in a way it works out for me, and them.


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## Neese's Painting (Nov 21, 2012)

spraytech said:


> Hey guys! I've been painting for 12 years now and I've noticed something about the painting contractors in my area (lynchburg, va). They don't care about the quality of their work. The last company I worked for has been in business for 33 years and would try everything in the book to (just get the job done). This includes charging for primer and 2 coats of paint but then only putting on one, chauking everything up but spray right over it w/o giving it time to setup and just about anything you can think of to save time and money. I take pride in my work and had enough so I switched companies to a contractor whose been in business 43 years and its even worse here. I know its all about money but how can these guys stay in business for so long doing shoddy work and procedures?


I bet they get a lot of call backs.Before I went out on my own I worked for a company that was nothing but NC and they pulled that crap.Two cuts one roll.It looked terrible but the gc let it fly.We would always have to come back and recaulk.No pride in there work.That's one of the reasons I went out on my own.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Its probably a bi-product of the situation that they feel they are in. Having been in business for 33 and 43 years respectively, those companies sure did not start out this way. I would bet those iffy techniques work most of the time and are not too difficult to fix when called back. Paying for two coats then getting one, is really shady though. If you get enough mils on with two passes you might get away with it. 

I am sure if you ask around, paint store, other painters, you will know who the contractors who match your values are. Find them, then seek them out for a job. Don't bad mouth your past and present employers, but use them to show how your future employers how you value a quality job and are looking for more.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

With so many PC's in a metro area there will always be good ones and bad ones.


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

It just amazes me that a GC keeps giving them more work after seeing their previous work. I plan on going out on my own come the start of spring as most of the GC I've worked for value my quality and ask for me to do their jobs. Which my previous company hated due to them not wanting to give credit where its due.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

spraytech said:


> It just amazes me that a GC keeps giving them more work after seeing their previous work. I plan on going out on my own come the start of spring as most of the GC I've worked for value my quality and ask for me to do their jobs. Which my previous company hated due to them not wanting to give credit where its due.


Maybe they come back and fix things 20 times a house without ever turning in a bill for the comebacks.


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Workaholic said:


> Maybe they come back and fix things 20 times a house without ever turning in a bill for the comebacks.


My previous employer worked mostly in commercial/industrial painting w/ houses thrown in as needed. Last job I did for them was Liberty University w/ roughly 125k sq ft of wall space.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Here 99 % of commercial work is low bid if did the job according to spec you would lose your shirt. Having been in the game since 70"s it gets worse every year. All clients want quality but not many want to pay what's its worth.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

when was the last time you bought a bag of chips>>??>.....same price but half the weight as before .........same **** goes for everything else in todays economy unfortunately ............im a small.........real small shop so obviously i dont operate by those principles. proffit can be had without me having to sacrifice quality


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Here 99 % of commercial work is low bid if did the job according to spec you would lose your shirt. Having been in the game since 70"s it gets worse every year. All clients want quality but not many want to pay what's its worth.


This is no CT we are rough here. 

Good to see you on the dark side. You lose your old registry info?


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> when was the last time you bought a bag of chips>>??>.....same price but half the weight as before .........same **** goes for everything else in todays economy unfortunately ............im a small.........real small shop so obviously i dont operate by those principles. proffit can be had without me having to sacrifice quality


 
Ole arnt you up their in Ken's market??? outside of philly


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Dave Mac said:


> Ole arnt you up their in Ken's market??? outside of philly


Yeah I work the same area but I live just inside of Philly.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

spraytech said:


> Hey guys! I've been painting for 12 years now and I've noticed something about the painting contractors in my area (lynchburg, va). They don't care about the quality of their work. The last company I worked for has been in business for 33 years and would try everything in the book to (just get the job done). This includes charging for primer and 2 coats of paint but then only putting on one, chauking everything up but spray right over it w/o giving it time to setup and just about anything you can think of to save time and money. I take pride in my work and had enough so I switched companies to a contractor whose been in business 43 years and its even worse here. I know its all about money but how can these guys stay in business for so long doing shoddy work and procedures?


If the market it big enough so the bad reputation doesn't get around, they can probably stay busy for a long time on price alone.

In my early days before we had employees, I spent a winter/spring working for another outfit on a large commercial remodel. He used the exact same approach that you described; the specs called for prime/2 finish coats and he would skip the primer and do one finish wherever he felt he could get away with it. I went back to operating our own small outfit after that, and never looked back. The outfit is still around, even in our small market. The owner is a consummate BS artist; I thing his favorite phrase is, "They all do that," when clients complain about the paint not hiding, or peeling too soon, or any other problem caused by him continuing to cut corners.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Toolnut said:


> Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


Great, just great....you just gave some hacks an idea!

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

spraytech said:


> It just amazes me that a GC keeps giving them more work after seeing their previous work. I plan on going out on my own come the start of spring as most of the GC I've worked for value my quality and ask for me to do their jobs. Which my previous company hated due to them not wanting to give credit where its due.


If you can deliver "Visibly"better quality at the other guys price you will get the job. Otherwise you will soon be pumpin em out like the rest:whistling2:


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## David's Painting (Nov 7, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


So old customers that are getting ready to die. Hmmmm


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Toolnut said:


> Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


This makes absolutely no sense.crap paint is harder to work with and will cost you more money to try and use it:blink:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

David's Painting said:


> So old customers that are getting ready to die. Hmmmm


Customers over 60 are required to list us in their will to be bequeathed with the home upon its benefactor. Some guys advertise themselves as like "3rd generation painters". They got it all backwards. Go for the 3rd generation customers.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> This makes absolutely no sense.crap paint is harder to work with and will cost you more money to try and use it:blink:


You have to imagine some bizarro world where your time actually has no value and material costs are your biggest expense.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> You have to imagine some bizarro world where your time actually has no value and material costs are your biggest expense.


MARBLE COUNTER

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


That takes a low life SOB.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Here 99 % of commercial work is low bid if did the job according to spec you would lose your shirt. Having been in the game since 70"s it gets worse every year.* All clients want quality but not many want to pay what's its worth.*


IMO - customers don't actually know what the price of a quality paint job should cost.

Painters in this forum frown upon discussing price. 
Painters in this forum also believe, that every painting contractor, should charge according to their own specific overhead, production rates and profit needs, etc. 
Painters in this forum also believe that there is NO going rate. However, I believe that there is a national average among Painting Contractors that the painters in this forum don't care to talk about. So with that said, if the painters in this forum can not formulate an average price to charge among ourselves, how can you expect a customer to know what a quality paint job its worth?

As far as the customer seeing things, in most cases, they look for the low price or one of the lower prices! I also believe, if you cut corners a wee bit, you will make more money - sad but true... As long as it looks presentable in the end, that is what counts!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> when was the last time you bought a bag of chips>>??>.....same price but half the weight as before .........same **** goes for everything else in todays economy unfortunately ............im a small.........real small shop so obviously i dont operate by those principles. proffit can be had without me having to sacrifice quality


 Ole school!:thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ROOMINADAY said:


> MARBLE COUNTER
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


Is that like a Deisel Fitter, er?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Toolnut said:


> Where i am you run into a lot of watered down paint and have run into a few that save their old SW and BM cans and buckets then fill them with Wally World paint. This happens if the customer is old and they think they will die before any issues arise.


 Watermart!:whistling2:


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

SparkoMatic said:


> IMO - customers don't actually know what the price of a quality paint job should cost.
> 
> Painters in this forum frown upon discussing price.
> Painters in this forum also believe, that every painting contractor, should charge according to their own specific overhead, production rates and profit needs, etc.
> ...


 
An average cost across a nation, does not help anybody. Hell an average hourly rate spread across 2 cities usually doesn;t mean anything.

If you give in and start cutting corners, you are going to paint yourself into a corner. You are going to keep attracting cheap customers who want a quick fix, and the only service you can offer them is a quick fix. Cutting corners can be a vicious cylce. Dont go down that road.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Futhamore, you cant make generalizations about "painters on this forum". 

I have been here waaay tooo long and I do not know any two painters on this forum who agree on anything.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Futhamore, you cant make generalizations about "painters on this forum".
> 
> I have been here waaay tooo long and I do not know any two painters on this forum who agree on anything.


 
I concur with this :whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> I concur with this :whistling2:


#waitaminute

:thumbup:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Futhamore, you cant make generalizations about "painters on this forum".
> 
> I have been here waaay tooo long and I do not know any two painters on this forum who agree on anything.


I will second that.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

wje said:


> An average cost across a nation, does not help anybody. Hell an average hourly rate spread across 2 cities usually doesn;t mean anything.
> 
> If you give in and start cutting corners, you are going to paint yourself into a corner. You are going to keep attracting cheap customers who want a quick fix, and the only service you can offer them is a quick fix. Cutting corners can be a vicious cylce. Dont go down that road.


National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp 

If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
> 
> If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
> Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


O/my aint you a peach


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Customers over 60 are required to list us in their will to be bequeathed with the home upon its benefactor. Some guys advertise themselves as like "3rd generation painters". They got it all backwards. Go for the 3rd generation customers.


Even after 30+ years in the business, we've only dealt with 2nd-generation clients. I'm not sure the 3rd-generation ones that we know have enough money yet:whistling2:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

SparkoMatic said:


> National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
> 
> If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
> Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


 

if i bid for 2 its because it needs 2...im a proffesional like that an i know what im talking about thats why im there doing the bid, the HO'er knows i know my **** an trusts me. if i see it only needs 1 i bid it for 1 an that lowers my price an thats how i snatch work off of guys like you........an by an off chance i bid for 1 an i needs 2 i hit it again with no up charge


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
> 
> If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
> Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


If you are getting paid for two coats and only give them one you are stealing from them.No two ways about it.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

im not trying to come off as holier then whatever or anything........i just bid jobs based on what they need. theres plenty of money out there to be made honeslty


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
> 
> If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
> Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


Only if they find out that you failed to fulfill the terms of the contract. So is it OK if they pay you half of the agreed amount?? Seems fair to me.

/And we wonder why contractors have a bad reputation....


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

wje said:


> An average cost across a nation, does not help anybody. Hell an average hourly rate spread across 2 cities usually doesn;t mean anything.
> 
> If you give in and start cutting corners, you are going to paint yourself into a corner. You are going to keep attracting cheap customers who want a quick fix, and the only service you can offer them is a quick fix. Cutting corners can be a vicious cylce. Dont go down that road.


I had a customer, the other day, that expected me to be able to paint two bedrooms (one fairly large) in three days. I told him that the estimate included two coats on everything including two doors and six bifold doors. I am a one man show, and realize that I am somewhat of a fairly slow painter (which is why I charge a little less per hour), but I was a bit angry that he expected me to prep and paint each room in a day and a half.

I thought about calling him back and offering to do it in his time frame, but it would have looked terrible. So, I decided against calling him back.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> IMO - customers don't actually know what the price of a quality paint job should cost.
> 
> Painters in this forum frown upon discussing price.
> Painters in this forum also believe, that every painting contractor, should charge according to their own specific overhead, production rates and profit needs, etc.
> ...


 i highly disagree 

1) you say "cutting corners" makes you money, but your lying to your customers charging them for one thing and giving them something else just so you'll make a few extra dollars

2) "As long as it looks presentable" you mean as long as you get paid? what about the customer paying for 1 thing and getting a lesser quality product ? How would you feel if you paid for name brand pair of shoes at shoes r us and found out the where cheap knock-off from china ?

It's people like you that gives painters a bad name, do you really think a homeowner deserves to be cheated, lied too just so you can make more money?

You do realize when i bid a job using skilled painter, quality paint like ben moore, have invested hard earned money on a shop, professional equipment,ect and give the ho a fair bid for quality workmanship that will last i give them a real value

then some  comes along telling a ho that they'll do the same thing at a cheaper price then "cut corners as long as it look ok" is what has killed the trade

i little free advice from an old painter for 30 years ...
bid the work as a professional, explain to the ho owner the different options, do a honest day's work for a honest day's pay and you'll find the right customers that want your service and will pay you for it and you'll sleep better at night, your kids will be proud of you and you'll keep our trade a professional trade that deserves to be paid for our skills

P.S.
and wear white's while your painting it kill me to see blue jean painters:whistling2:


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Gough said:


> Only if they find out that you failed to fulfill the terms of the contract. So is it OK if they pay you half of the agreed amount?? Seems fair to me.
> 
> /And we wonder why contractors have a bad reputation....


I paint for coverage!

So you believe that 1 coat is 50% of the work and 2 coats is the other 50% of the work? What about load in, load out, running to the paint store, set up time, prep work and clean up time? What percentage of your day would you allot for "brush not in hand time"? 

Here is a job I am in the middle of. The customer had painted over wallpaper so rather than remove it, I camouflaged the seems. I did this in 3 rooms and believe me when I tell you, I charged way too little for this work. Should I charge him double?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Thats an interesting approach for wallpaper. Bill?


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> i highly disagree
> 
> 1) you say "cutting corners" makes you money, but your lying to your customers charging them for one thing and giving them something else just so you'll make a few extra dollars
> 
> ...


Lets not get into a pissing match mate. And lets not make blind, unfair assumptions. 

*Bottom line: I satisfy my customers 100% of the time, every time!*


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

You paint for coverage but always bid for 2 coats cause you don't know.... win win for you huh?........ Earlier you said if it calls for 2 an if it looks good with 1 your job is done. Who said it called for 2???.... YOU DID.... Dude were not stupid


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

vermontpainter said:


> Thats an interesting approach for wallpaper. Bill?


Thanks! 

*note "painted over paper". 

I used a curved trowel.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

SparkoMatic said:


> Lets not get into a pissing match mate. And lets not make blind, unfair assumptions.
> 
> Bottom line: I satisfy my customers 100% of the time, every time!


Anthony?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Nothing like charging for a service that is not always delivered. I love it when I do not get what I paid for.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> The customer had painted over wallpaper so rather than remove it, I camouflaged the seems. I did this in 3 rooms and believe me when I tell you, I charged way too little for this work. Should I charge him double?


Its not the trowel that impressed me.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Is that like a Deisel Fitter, er?


I meant like the cost of a marble countertop to labour exp.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Ole34 said:


> You paint for coverage but always bid for 2 coats cause you don't know.... win win for you huh?........ Earlier you said if it calls for 2 an if it looks good with 1 your job is done. Who said it called for 2???.... YOU DID.... Dude were not stupid


You misunderstood.

In most cases, 2 coats are needed for coverage, and I do exactly that, and then some. 

If a ceiling looks amazing with 1 coat and it will look exactly the same with 2 coats, why be a fool and waste time and money?


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

SparkoMatic said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> In most cases, 2 coats are needed for coverage, and I do exactly that, and then some.
> 
> If a ceiling looks amazing with 1 coat and it will look exactly the same with 2 coats, why be a fool and waste time and money?


"you got a purty mouth" comes to mind lol ...... Look man, you bid for 2 give them
2 that's all if not maybe throw in some extras or something. By now you should be able
To figure out ceilings.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

So, let me get this straight...

Customer paints over wallpaper
Wallpaper joints lift
You add (what looks to be a considerable amount of) drywall mud to "camoflauge" this problem?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> I paint for coverage!
> 
> So you believe that 1 coat is 50% of the work and 2 coats is the other 50% of the work? What about load in, load out, running to the paint store, set up time, prep work and clean up time? What percentage of your day would you allot for "brush not in hand time"?


"
No, of course I don't. My point was if you're going to lie to the client and try to cheat them out of money, it seems fair that they can pay you less than the bid. It's a two-way street.

"Bottom line: I satisfy my customers 100% of the time, every time!", as long as they don't know (see your earlier quote).

PS I hope they're paying for "hiding" not "coverage"--a technical pet peeve.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> In most cases, 2 coats are needed for coverage, and I do exactly that, and then some.
> 
> If a ceiling looks amazing with 1 coat and it will look exactly the same with 2 coats, why be a fool and waste time and money?


Are you putting in your contract the number of coats? 

Maybe it all evens out in the end. Charge them for 2 coats give them one when you think it will fly and when you hit the transparent yellows and reds you can give them 4 or 5 coats for the price of two.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Maybe he uses that Behr Xtra Special + or whatever that stuff is thats all like badass.


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

The only time when 1 coat will work is if your not changing colors or its a very close match. If you do change colors your cut lines will have streaks even with a heavy coat. I always cut heavy but you just can't build up enough millage to completely cover. Regardless if they pay for 2 coats that's exactly what they should get.

Concerning that wallpaper problem. As long as the sheetrock was primed it shouldn't be a problem to pull right off. If they didn't prime well get your mud ready.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> In most cases, 2 coats are needed for coverage, and I do exactly that, and then some.
> 
> If a ceiling looks amazing with 1 coat and it will look exactly the same with 2 coats, why be a fool and waste time and money?


Then the Cowboy Way is to give them a discount for the time and material that you saved. I don't think that's too hard to understand.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Gough said:


> Then the Cowboy Way is to give them a discount for the time and material that you saved. I don't think that's too hard to understand.


Exactly what I was thinking and exactly what I do when on rare the occasion I do over estimate the number of coats.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Well spraytech you got your answer to your thread what happened to quality???

SparkoMatic "I also believe, if you cut corners a wee bit, you will make more money"


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

spraytech said:


> The only time when 1 coat will work is if your not changing colors or its a very close match. If you do change colors your cut lines will have streaks even with a heavy coat. I always cut heavy but you just can't build up enough millage to completely cover. Regardless if they pay for 2 coats that's exactly what they should get.
> 
> Concerning that wallpaper problem. As long as the **** was primed it shouldn't be a problem to pull right off. If they didn't prime well get your mud ready.


You just have to "set your brush" to apply double mill-age. We used to have a member here who said he could do that. I'm still trying to figure that out. 

As far as the rest of this thread, if you're quoting "to full and even coverage" and you accomplish the goal, I think that's fine. It probably does even out in the long run. If on the other hand you are quoting 2 coats and delivering one, then that's stealing. I honestly didn't get from sparky's post that he was a dishonest person, or at least I really appreciated his honesty in his joy in cutting corners!

All I know is that I'm always trying to improve my technique and finished product. If I am cutting corners then I will know it, and my customers will sense it. The way we carry ourselves and who we believe we are is constantly being communicated on subtle levels, and believe me, people can pick up on it. I'm no saint, but I feel better about myself when I do what I say I'm gonna do, and that makes it easier to sell quality jobs to quality customers.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Repaint Florida said:


> SparkoMatic "I also believe, if you cut corners a wee bit, you will make more money"


Short term or long term?


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Lol I'm used to it repaint Florida as everyone in this neck of the woods does it. I starting painting coastal houses in south jersey and I didn't see this problem there. Or at least wasn't taught that way.


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

I've never heard of setting your brush for high millage. If I want millage I just drench my brush in paint lol


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

spraytech said:


> I've never heard of setting your brush for high millage. If I want millage I just drench my brush in paint lol


Its called load balancing. And stuff.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

spraytech said:


> Lol I'm used to it repaint Florida as everyone in this neck of the woods does it. I starting painting coastal houses in south jersey and I didn't see this problem there. Or at least wasn't taught that way.


I worked for a man years ago that did the same kinda work.He cut corners all the time...stole from his customers...always over estimated wallcoverings and then hid them in his truck because of course he was getting $20 a double roll to hang.I worked for him only long enough to get by(I had a family to feed). It still bothers me some of the kinda work that I did for him.NEVER AGAIN!I thank god that I am my own boss and I only do top notch work-no shortcuts and no stealing.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Not really a simple question with a simple answer Spraytech.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

I just did an estimate for a couple, it was a kitchen and hallway paintjob, with cupboards included. 

I sent them a scope of work, detailing everything we would be doing to a T. I found my numbers to be quite high. I went over them 3 times. I could not find a way to bring them down.

I added a memo to the bottom of the scope of work indicating to the homeowners that the estimated price was based on the work taking the time I thought it would take. I told them the numbers seemed high and my crew would likely not need the 5th day in there, and if we were done before the 5th day like I have a feeling we would be, I would be deducting $xx from the price.

I explained the reason I did this is so that if we do need the 5th day, I don't have to come after him for an extra day, and that this way there is no disagreements come bill time.

I sold the job to them, and they were happy I took the time to explain all of that, and were extremely pleased with the fact I was not going to be cutting corners to make a buck, and that if we were indeed not needed for the final estimated day, they would not be paying for my crews time when it is not needed.

I also do this on many repaints with ceilings. Many times ceilings only need 1 coat if it is a standard repaint with minimal prep work. 

I will price it with one coat, and show them the difference in price, and let them know they can have a look at them when the first coat has been applied. I try to save them the cost of the extra coat. Not because I don't want the work, but I am not a greasy salesman trying to sell people something they don't need. I don't make a living like that, and I don't need to. There are plenty of surfaces out there that need painting, and it is my job to find them, and price them accordingly.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I do the same thing wje. I do it to be fair to them, not because I am competing. I have 2 coated many ceilings because they needed it, when I quoted one. My judgement for quoting one is my fault, not theirs.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Workaholic said:


> Are you putting in your contract the number of coats?
> 
> Maybe it all evens out in the end. Charge them for 2 coats give them one when you think it will fly and when you hit the transparent yellows and reds you can give them 4 or 5 coats for the price of two.


I give my customers more than what they pay for.
Whether the job ends up needing 3 coats of paint, I deliver coverage at no extra charge.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> I give my customers more than what they pay for.
> Whether the job ends up needing 3 coats of paint, I deliver coverage at no extra charge.


I understand where you are coming from. The way you worded your initial post sent these guys off and rightfully so. We all have home run jobs and jobs we wished we stayed in bed. In the end it is about averages. I don't get the impression you are out to screw anyone.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

vermontpainter said:


> So, let me get this straight...
> 
> Customer paints over wallpaper
> *Wallpaper joints lift*
> You add (what looks to be a considerable amount of) drywall mud to "camoflauge" this problem?


No, the seams did not lift. The seams were tight and sealed by the muti-layers of satin paint.

In situations like this, I cut away any loose paper if there is any at all. 

The cost to remove the paper that had been painted over was not in the customers budget. 

Also, the trowel I used is curved, which builds the mud up over the seams by 1/8".


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I have worried about quality falling into the crapper when trying to grow PP. As more leads come in, jobs have to get turned over fast and it can become tempting to just charge low to stay busy and cut corners where you can. Unfortunately you end up walking the razor's edge. One sizable loss can mean the next ten jobs have to make up for it. That's where people get into trouble. I don't need that stress. Every job is profitable or it doesn't get done. Every customer gets the highest quality and service or I don't take it on. Those seem like simple principles but its easy to get caught up being busy over making profit.. especially when you have guys depending on you for work.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

wje said:


> I just did an estimate for a couple, it was a kitchen and hallway paintjob, with cupboards included.
> 
> I sent them a scope of work, detailing everything we would be doing to a T. I found my numbers to be quite high. I went over them 3 times. I could not find a way to bring them down.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your method of dealing business. Your approach will not work with all customers. 

I for one don't want to be re-negotiating my bottom line in the end. 
I find it best to add extra time and extra supplies into the price, and give the customer a no-more, no-less price. 

I don't believe in telling the customer how the price was formulated. Whether it be by SF., or by time. All they need to know is the bottom line!

I did a wallpaper removal job years ago and the customer stated, "you are not the lowest price"! It made me feel like I had to pacify her, so I told her, "if the paper comes off easy, I would give you a discount". Worst mistake of my life, the paper was a b-itch to get off and in the end, she haggled with me to get me to deduct money.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

cdaniels said:


> If you are getting paid for two coats and only give them one you are stealing from them.No two ways about it.


 No two ways about it, No two coats about it.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Hey Sparkomatic what do you mean"extra time and extra supplies"?are you talking about time and supplies you did not use again?


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> I have worried about quality falling into the crapper when trying to grow PP. As more leads come in, jobs have to get turned over fast and it can become tempting to just charge low to stay busy and cut corners where you can. Unfortunately you end up walking the razor's edge. One sizable loss can mean the next ten jobs have to make up for it. That's where people get into trouble. I don't need that stress. Every job is profitable or it doesn't get done. *Every customer gets the highest quality and service or I don't take it on*. Those seem like simple principles but its easy to get caught up being busy over making profit.. especially when you have guys depending on you for work.


I just lost out on a 25,000 job due to my pricing the work, to do exactly what you've just said. Customer said to me, "I know you would have done a great job, however, we've found a painter to do the job at a lower price". Now I had to lay off 2 of my painters.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> "you got a purty mouth" comes to mind lol ...... Look man, you bid for 2 give them
> 2 that's all if not maybe throw in some extras or something. By now you should be able
> To figure out ceilings.


 A purdy mouth?:blink:


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

cdaniels said:


> Hey Sparkomatic what do you mean"extra time and extra supplies"?are you talking about time and supplies you did not use again?


If you figure the job will require 10 gallons of paint, put 12 gallons in your price. 
If you figure the job will require 40 hours to do, charge 48 hours in your price.

If the work ends up using less paint and less time, you have bonus money for your guys!


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I don't operate like that.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

cdaniels said:


> I don't operate like that.


You don't allow a margin?

What do you do if the job requires more time and material than you charged for? What if you priced for 10 gallons, and you use 11, and then your guy kicks over 1 gallon which equals 12? 

What if the job takes you an extra day? 

Are you that good at figuring time & materials that you can figure "exactly" what the job requires, without losing money?


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> I just lost out on a 25,000 job due to my pricing the work, to do exactly what you've just said. Customer said to me, "I know you would have done a great job, however, we've found a painter to do the job at a lower price". Now I had to lay off 2 of my painters.



"I don't believe in telling the customer how the price was formulated. Whether it be by SF., or by time. All they need to know is the bottom line!"

"If you figure the job will require 10 gallons of paint, put 12 gallons in your price. 
If you figure the job will require 40 hours to do, charge 48 hours in your price."

"I also believe, if you cut corners a wee bit, you will make more money"

hard to believe you lost out on a 25,000 job with your work ethic :whistling2:


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> You don't allow a margin?
> 
> What do you do if the job requires more time and material than you charged for? What if you priced for 10 gallons, and you use 11, and then your guy kicks over 1 gallon which equals 12?
> 
> ...


I don't charge people for time and material that I don't use.If I underestimate a job (which doesn't happen very often) I make less...but I still make money.It is my fault...not theirs.


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> "I don't believe in telling the customer how the price was formulated. Whether it be by SF., or by time. All they need to know is the bottom line!"
> 
> "If you figure the job will require 10 gallons of paint, put 12 gallons in your price.
> If you figure the job will require 40 hours to do, charge 48 hours in your price."
> ...


Its alway nice to be misquoted! Thanks!

My work ethic is a mark of excellent and complete customer satisfaction, 100% of the time!


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

cdaniels said:


> I don't charge people for time and material that I don't use.If I underestimate a job (which doesn't happen very often) I make less...but I still make money.It is my fault...not theirs.


It sounds like you are new in business! You should alway price the job with a margin for error. I know a HVAC business owner that incorporates employee theft into his price. He said his guys steal his supplies to do side jobs. Well, his customers pay that cost! 

If you were going over seas by plane, would you want the exact amount of fuel in the tank to make it to your destination, or would you want more than enough to be on the safe side?

Being safe is alway nice!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> Its alway nice to be misquoted! Thanks!
> 
> !


Those all seem to be things that you posted in this thread....


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)




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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

No offense Sparky, but if you had to lay off 2 guys because one job you priced didn't come through, maybe you need to do 1 of 2 things

1) Cut even more corners
2) Get more leads


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Gough said:


> Those all seem to be things that you posted in this thread....


Agreed. 

However, losing out on a 25,000 job was due to a low ball bidder. Not my work ethic as Florida Painter is implying! 

"I don't believe in telling the customer how the price was formulated. Whether it be by SF., or by time. All they need to know is the bottom line!"

I stand behind this statement 100%.
I do jobs on a bid price. If a company kicks ass to get a job done ahead of time, the customer is not entitled to monies taken off the final price. If you tell your customer you figured 5 days to do a job and work extra hard to get the job done in 4, you will be setting yourself up to give money back. If you are being paid by the day, that is a different story. You get paid for the exact days you worked.

"If you figure the job will require 10 gallons of paint, put 12 gallons in your price. 
If you figure the job will require 40 hours to do, charge 48 hours in your price."

I stand behind this statement 100%.

Always leave a margin for something that may come up unexpected. I don't know about you, but sometime prep work can be over looked while estimating. 

"I also believe, if you cut corners a wee bit, you will make more money"

Yes, I stated, I "believe". And this is a common sense statement. To be quite honest, do you guys do this much prep work on your jobs?* Do you see any corners being cut here?*


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

wje said:


> No offense Sparky, but if you had to lay off 2 guys because one job you priced didn't come through, maybe you need to do 1 of 2 things
> 
> 1) Cut even more corners
> 2) Get more leads


Wje, it's the dead of winter and this is a seasonal business! Get real!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, losing out on a 25,000 job was due to a low ball bidder. Not my work ethic as Florida Painter is implying!
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone disagrees about most of what you wrote above. I think this whole issue started when you wrote about putting on one coat instead of two and that the client would be none the wiser. That implied to me that you had spec'ed two coats...and have applied just one. If I misinterpreted what you wrote, I apologize. If I didn't, then it seems pretty obvious that you haven't fulfilled the terms of your contracts. Whether it looks OK or the the customer is satisfied is not really relevant. If you contract to do A and B, but do only A, you're in breach.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Theres still plenty of good painters doing top notch work. I've done this for over 30 years. The fly by night painters and the guys doing poor quality work have always been around. Nothing new.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> It sounds like you are new in business! You should alway price the job with a margin for error. I know a HVAC business owner that incorporates employee theft into his price. He said his guys steal his supplies to do side jobs. Well, his customers pay that cost!
> 
> If you were going over seas by plane, would you want the exact amount of fuel in the tank to make it to your destination, or would you want more than enough to be on the safe side?
> 
> Being safe is alway nice!


I've been in business for myself for the last 15 years Sparky.I don't agree with the way you over charge your clients.I charge people a fair price and always do top notch work...I never cut corners not even a "wee bit".I never charge for more time and material than I use and I never steal from my customers.That's why they have been calling me back for the last 15 yrs.So you know people that make their customers pay for what his employees steal? Why should his customers pay for it? If I had employees stealing from me I would fire their ****.I have done it before and would not hesitate to do it again.I damn sure would not expect my customers to pay for it.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

SparkoMatic said:


> Agreed.
> 
> However, losing out on a 25,000 job was due to a low ball bidder. Not my work ethic as Florida Painter is implying!
> 
> ...


If you are overlooking work when you are bidding jobs....you must be new to this business.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

SparkoMatic said:


> * Do you see any corners being cut here?*


Just 1

I wish TJ would post his song more often. 

Incidentally, I got a call just yesterday. Water line break above a painted-over-wallpaper room..(cha-ching)


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I see a powerful lot of !!!!!!! in sparkies posts


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> Its not the trowel that impressed me.


 Trowel and error!:whistling2:


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

My question is when you say cut corners a wee bit, who determines what a wee bit is? What may seem like a wee bit to you may be major to me or your customer. Its like a guy they caught not to far from me. He would save his Ben Moore And SW cans and buckets then he would fill them with paint from Wally World before he went to the job. Probably thought he was cutting a corner just a wee bit.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> My question is when you say cut corners a wee bit, who determines what a wee bit is? What may seem like a wee bit to you may be major to me or your customer. Its like a guy they caught not to far from me. He would save his Ben Moore And SW cans and buckets then he would fill them with paint from Wally World before he went to the job. Probably thought he was cutting a corner just a wee bit.


With all the work that goes into load-in, set-up, prep, and load out, applying only one coat instead of the two that were called for may only seem like "cutting corners a wee bit", but as far as the client is concerned, that's doing half of the job.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

All that quality stuff is a huge profit leak.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

high fibre said:


> All that quality stuff is a huge profit leak.


Trolling??


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I was ignoring this thread last night, and all I have to say is WOW (and stuff)


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> *My question is when you say cut corners a wee bit, who determines what a wee bit is?* What may seem like a wee bit to you may be major to me or your customer. Its like a guy they caught not to far from me. He would save his Ben Moore And SW cans and buckets then he would fill them with paint from Wally World before he went to the job. Probably thought he was cutting a corner just a wee bit.


When a ceiling looks amazing with ONE coat of paint, who is cutting corners?

My customers are 100% satisfied, 100% of the time! Did I forget to say 100%?


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

I know for a fact I can paint a ceiling in 1 coat. As long as you hammer it with gun and backroll. As far as charging for 2 but only painting 1 then thats wrong lol. Assuming it's new construction


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> When a ceiling looks amazing with ONE coat of paint, who is cutting corners?
> 
> My customers are 100% satisfied, 100% of the time! Did I forget to say 100%?


Cool. Since when have they been using those 110 electrical sockets in the UK?


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I'm not so sure any of you fools know how to run a profitable painting company. With all of your adherence to regulations (local, state, and federal) and then throw in a certain level of integrity, and honesty,, its a miracle you are still around. Remember,,,,its not profit unless you take it from someone else!!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> I'm not so sure any of you fools know how to run a profitable painting company. With all of your adherence to regulations (local, state, and federal) and then throw in a certain level of integrity, and honesty,, its a miracle you are still around. Remember,,,,its not profit unless you take it from someone else!!


But the hugs are free? :whistling2:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

mudbone said:


> A purdy mouth?:blink:


 
from the movie deliverance............eh ******* etc etc


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

high fibre said:


> I'm not so sure any of you fools know how to run a profitable painting company. With all of your adherence to regulations (local, state, and federal) and then throw in a certain level of integrity, and honesty,, its a miracle you are still around. Remember,,,,its not profit unless you take it from someone else!!


Neither is thievery.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> from the movie deliverance............eh ******* etc etc


Lol Ole, in defense of myself and fellow ******** around the world. the banjo guys in the movie Deliverence were not "********" :no: They were backwoods Hillbillies. There is a difference.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Hey now fella,,,,don't get all hung up on words!

The most successful businesses in the world take advantage every day,,

The greater the distraction,,,the bigger the profit!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Perhaps it's the difference in mentality of a smaller market versus bigger ones. I know that where I conduct business it wouldn't take long for the word to get around that company X rips off their customers. In fact I've seen it happen to several well known outfits that, although they are still in business, they now have to constantly be seeking new customers because ones they've worked for refuse to deal with them a second time. Trouble is, they are now running out of people that will deal with them in our area.

I don't pretend to be any holier than thou or saintly individual. But I do know that when started my business I made a decision to run it honestly, fairly, and with integrity. I basically operate on the premise that I treat others the way I'd want to be treated myself. If a roofer said he was going to use 50 year shingles but used 20, or said he'd sheath it with 3/4 plywood but really used 1/2 OSB, or if a plumber said he was using copper when in fact he was using PFC, or an electrician was running 14 gauge when he told me he was putting in 12, I'd feel that I'd been lied to and stold from. It's really no different when a painter quotes and charges for two coats when they really put down one. Sure, there are a number of ways to justify it, but it doesn't change the fact of what it is.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

high fibre said:


> Hey now fella,,,,don't get all hung up on words!
> 
> The most successful businesses in the world take advantage every day,,
> 
> The greater the distraction,,,the bigger the profit!


Dam John! Epic troll! And. . . sage advice. 

Yall need to learn to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions. 

To thine own self be true. I expect more where others would be happy with less. Some expect more than me. I dont spec coats. Everthing is two, unless it needs more or good enough with less. Some of you guys doing res repaints have way too elaborate of contracts. Truth is, you are going to get paid or you wont. There is a healthy dose of phsycology neceassary to be a buisness owner in small business operations. This brings me full circle to my first sentance. Learn to read people and you will realize that High Fibre is actually kicking some wisdom masked as sarcasm. 

John, your still a crazy mofo in my book. :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> Dam John! Epic troll! And. . . sage advice.
> 
> Yall need to learn to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I pretty much got what HF was doing (or at least hoped he was doing). My longer response, and even the short one, wasn't aimed at him - just at some of the posts set forth earlier in the thread.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> There is a healthy dose of phsycology neceassary to be a buisness owner in small business operations.


...and that's the truth...*"it ain't just paint"* :thumbsup:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

SparkoMatic said:


> National averages give you a ballpark. You can always adjust by making cost of living comparison @ http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
> 
> If the job calls for 2 coats of paint on the ceiling and trim, and the work looks 100% with ONE coat, what the customer doesn't know won't hurt them.
> Again, if the work looks good, it is good!


Do you just want to be average? Honest question.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Not only do I have ethics and a code I live by, I also believe in karma  I do not charge for work I dont do. Im a firm believer in two coats whether its interior or exterior. So, I bid my jobs for two coats and thats what my proposals say. Although quite often something looks good after only one coat, my customers WILL get the two full coats they paid for. ALWAYS! No exceptions


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I've been trying to stay away from this as well. 

It sounds as if you are a paint applicator looking for a quality company to work for, however you define quality. Like was said before, there is good and bad, always has been and always will be. If your expectations are not being met, venture off and start one of your own. Make it a part of your mission to set a new standard not yet available in your area. Network out a little bit and people will at the very least hear you. Tell them what it will cost and see of you can make a profit. It's not a simple answer spray tech because as has also been said before, it aint just painting. There is a lot to do before putting that paint on the wall. If you can do it over and over profitably then you can start a thread here titled 'this is where you find quality and this is how you do it'. Make it a slogan. Charging for it is going to play a big part of it. Selling that large cost is going to be another. Follow that by acquiring and training a crew to provide that quality in a set production rate while ensuring all of your bills are paid, invoices settled, customer relations are in order and all the while your wife doesn't leave you for lack of attention. 

The guys you are working for are contracting two coats but likely bidding it as one to win the job. What they bid, contract and actually do could be three different things. They are making their own decision based upon survival and assurance that you have a check that week. Getting in is easier than getting out when you have a set of expenses every month that won't just go away. 

Click the link below to see a little more about why it is not so simple a topic. I have to agree with someone who says this line form time to time. Most people just want some color, the joints caulked, the lines straight and for it to last with a pleasant experience throughout. 

http://www.painttalk.com/f4/craftsmanship-not-what-makes-business-succesful-1226/


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Perhaps it's the difference in mentality of a smaller market versus bigger ones. I know that where I conduct business it wouldn't take long for the word to get around that company X rips off their customers. In fact I've seen it happen to several well known outfits that, although they are still in business, they now have to constantly be seeking new customers because ones they've worked for refuse to deal with them a second time. Trouble is, they are now running out of people that will deal with them in our area.
> 
> I don't pretend to be any holier than thou or saintly individual. But I do know that when started my business I made a decision to run it honestly, fairly, and with integrity. I basically operate on the premise that I treat others the way I'd want to be treated myself. If a roofer said he was going to use 50 year shingles but used 20, or said he'd sheath it with 3/4 plywood but really used 1/2 OSB, or if a plumber said he was using copper when in fact he was using PFC, or an electrician was running 14 gauge when he told me he was putting in 12, I'd feel that I'd been lied to and stold from. It's really no different when a painter quotes and charges for two coats when they really put down one. Sure, there are a number of ways to justify it, but it doesn't change the fact of what it is.


 Your just a coat of many colors Hound :thumbsup:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> Dam John! Epic troll! And. . . sage advice.
> 
> Yall need to learn to read between the lines and draw your own conclusions.
> 
> ...


 Crazy?Yes the signs are all there!:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> I had a customer, the other day, that expected me to be able to paint two bedrooms (one fairly large) in three days. I told him that the estimate included two coats on everything including two doors and six bifold doors. I am a one man show, and realize that I am somewhat of a fairly slow painter (which is why I charge a little less per hour), but I was a bit angry that he expected me to prep and paint each room in a day and a half.
> 
> I thought about calling him back and offering to do it in his time frame, but it would have looked terrible. So, I decided against calling him back.


 For Petes sake!


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## Candcpaing (Dec 30, 2012)

mudbone said:


> For Petes sake!


Was it a rental?


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

mudbone said:


> For Petes sake!


LMAO :thumbup:


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

"expected me to be able to paint two bedrooms (one fairly large) in three days"
OMG :1eye: the nerve of some homeowners :whistling2:

hope you got at least $50 a room


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

How much is too much profit?

Anybody make a profit off of materials?

I mean, I don't put interior paint on a exterior deck, but I still like to make a profit when I can.

Let's keep it simple, make as much as you can with the customer being happy about the job. 

I prefer to do it with a 9" roller myself...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

> what happened to quality???


It got in the way of the need for speed.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Maybe having your own painting business is truly the only way to control quality. 

As a painter, the expected pace of the contractors I worked for always seemed to limit my ability to consistently provide the highest of quality that I knew I was capable of. I suspect the painting contractor either bid so low as to not allow enough time for intermediate coats to properly dry, as recommended in the specifications, or the painting contractor required only so many hours before labor started digging into his percentage of the billable hours. Either way, this business seems to require a haste that is not sustainable.


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

spraytech said:


> It just amazes me that a GC keeps giving them more work after seeing their previous work. I plan on going out on my own come the start of spring as most of the GC I've worked for value my quality and ask for me to do their jobs. Which my previous company hated due to them not wanting to give credit where its due.


GC's like this just like the price. They would rather not have touch ups, but as long as they aren't doing them they don't mind as long as they aren't paying for them. 

GC's like quality but most all the time they refuse to pay for it... Give too much & you'll find perhaps you work too hard & get no appreciation. Then you'll want residential work from homeowners. Another learning curve...


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

So what is "quality"?
I think it's different from everyone's prospective.

And what is the "value" of a paint job.
Again it's different form everyone's prospective.

I also think most of you are giving the customers to much credit in knowing the difference of what is a "quality" paint job.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

oldpaintdoc said:


> I also think most of you are giving the customers to much credit in knowing the difference of what is a "quality" paint job.


Quality?.......for the most part its nothing more then doing a better job then "DAD" or the husband .......


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> GC's like this just like the price. They would rather not have touch ups, but as long as they aren't doing them they don't mind as long as they aren't paying for them.
> 
> GC's like quality but most all the time they refuse to pay for it... Give too much & you'll find perhaps you work too hard & get no appreciation. Then you'll want residential work from homeowners. Another learning curve...


Did a few jobs for a remodeling contractor located here. Always indicated they were pleased with the quality and said my prices were reasonable. One job came up where after the painting was done (two new large bathroom remodels) the client decided she didn't like the colors she chose, signed off on, and saw while being applied. Okay, a reasonable additional charge was applied and everything was redone. Later the PM said he felt I was unreasonable for me to not just redo the two rooms with no additional charge.  Never heard from them again - which was fine by me. I'd just as soon they go off and try to bash someone else in the nuts rather than bother me.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> So what is "quality"?
> I think it's different from everyone's prospective.
> 
> And what is the "value" of a paint job.
> ...


I would agree. That's why I feel part of our job is to educate the HO as to what constitutes a quality job and where the value is in hiring a professional outfit that will do what they say they'll do and do it correctly. If they still don't care and only want the lowest price, well, so be it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

oldpaintdoc said:


> So what is "quality"?
> I think it's different from everyone's prospective.
> 
> And what is the "value" of a paint job.
> ...


I think quality begins with a set standard or bench mark, then is adjusted from there. Most professional painters know what those standards are, from prep to finish. The problem is, there is basically no required over site to insure that those standards are followed. 

Homeowners are generally only concerned about the sexy part of a paint job, and that's the color, sheen, and tight lines of the finish product. And if a painting contractor can provide that at half the cost of Billy by the Book, who do you think will get the job? Sure, there are those customers that have an understanding of what constitutes a general standard of quality, but I believe there are a lot more that are just interested in cheap and sexy. How a painting contractor sustains any integrity in this trade, let alone a clientele that supports a decent living, is beyond me. 

Unfortunately, not enough importance from your general consumer is placed on the technical aspects of this trade.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

And no, plainpainter did not pay me to submit the previous post.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> I also think most of you are giving the customers to much credit in knowing the difference of what is a "quality" paint job.


I think that's what some companies count on. From what we've seen, that especially applies to large companies using post-secondary school students as painters :whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

“And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good—
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?” 
― Robert M. Pirsig, _ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values _


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

tj paint said:


> “and what is good, phaedrus,
> and what is not good—
> need we ask anyone to tell us these things?”
> ― robert m. Pirsig, _ zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance: An inquiry into values _


mmmmmm


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> “And what is good, Phaedrus,
> And what is not good—
> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?”
> ― Robert M. Pirsig, _ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values _


There are several other quotes from Pirsig's book on the wall in my office, but I missed that one. Thanks.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Here 99 % of commercial work is low bid if did the job according to spec you would lose your shirt. Having been in the game since 70"s it gets worse every year. All clients want quality but not many want to pay what's its worth.


 You think?


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## SparkoMatic (Nov 11, 2012)

high fibre said:


> Hey now fella,,,,don't get all hung up on words!
> 
> The most successful businesses in the world take advantage every day,,
> 
> The greater the distraction,,,the bigger the profit!


That is the truth!


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

SparkoMatic said:


> That is the truth!


I *hear what you are playing* brrrrrrother:thumbup::euro::zorro:
[


SparkoMatic said:


> SparkoMatic said:
> 
> 
> > ]/QUOTE[
> ...


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