# Major exterior Duration problem



## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Siding is cedar clapboard. Entire house was hand washed with Simple Green and rinsed with hose. Let it dry for 24 hours prior to scraping. Sanded entire house with 80 grit on sheet sanders. Dusted and wiped entire house. Full prime with sw exterior oil primer tinted to p3( the slow drying primer) let it cure for one week prior to topcoat. Color was matched to farrow and ball color downpipe. It's a very dark gray/blue. Applied two cows allowing 24 hours between coats. Paint was drying for 36-48 hours before yesterday rain in afternoon. Used Duration flat in a deep base. The whole house now has runs in the film that looks like the pigment separated. What to do? I had the color remade in resilience flat and did one entire side this afternoon. I'm going to spray it with a pump sprayer using clean water tomorrow am and see how it drys. I have a feeling is not gonna be any better. I have access to bm and ppg. What is my best course of action? Sw already said they would comp me the paint and reimburse labor costs. I'm only going to do one coat. What has everyone had luck with in deep base? It's supposed to rain Wednesday here. I have tomorrow to get it right. I don't care if I use another paint and sw doesn't comp me material or labor. At this point I just need to make it right. Thanjs










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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I can also get ahold of farrow and ball exterior masonry finish(flat). Just don't know about the durability. House gets major sun in the afternoon. 


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Grab a pressure washer. It's probably surfactant leeching and if so should come right off. One way to check is to simply get a wet rag and try wiping some of it off....

Out of curiosity what were the temps while it was drying. We deal with that kind of stuff here in the pacifin nw a bit...usually in spring and fall when humidity and temp aren't ideal.

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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I tried with them down and it just burnished the paint. Temps were about 75 degrees while painting and at night the lowest temp was 50 degrees. No dew on the house at all. This is a big job. 10 working days for 3 guys doing strictly prep and rotted wood replacement. I need this job to be perfect. It only took 4 days to brush the whole house two coats. Trim and body 


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

The sales rep and a store manager showed up and both said it happened bc of the amount of colorant. Still not an excuse for one of the most highly rated exterior paints on the market. Even you sw haters have to agree that it is most often a very good durable paint along with color retention. The finish has to be a flat. The customer is very firm on that finish. Sw also had a hell of a time color matching. So if I go elsewhere I need a very competent store manager to get the match right. 


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

BM Aura exterior has been the best to us for deep base colors. The colorlock tech has proven itself to me over the years.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

PRC said:


> BM Aura exterior has been the best to us for deep base colors. The colorlock tech has proven itself to me over the years.




I hear you on the color retention. I need a product that the color won't separate and look like garbage if it rains 18-24 hours after application 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PRC said:


> BM Aura exterior has been the best to us for deep base colors. The colorlock tech has proven itself to me over the years.




Yeah, if you search this forum you will find several threads related to problems with SW deep base colors. 

Back several years ago when the EPA tightened VOC regulations, all paint companies were forced to alter their pigments. BM invented Gennex, California paints (and others I think) bought the rights to Trillion colorants. Made in Europe IIRC. Both of those are WB colorant systems that don't weaken the base like traditional glycol colorants. 

Sherwin on the other hand, just tweaked their glycol system to meet the new guidelines (barely). The result was an overall weaker colorant system.* 

As mentioned, it could just be sufficant leaching. Any paint might be subject to that under certain conditions. If it is that, it should wash off with water. 

I've seen very good results from Gennex paints also. Though they not immune to leaching in certain conditions. 

*that commentary is based on my personal research and experience. I'm not a paint chemist or even a rep. If any part is incorrect, I would appreciate a correction by more informed sources.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

You said you did 1 side I resilience already. How'd it turn out? If it's good go with it and switch it up on the next project. Otherwise id head over to bm. 

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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Just curious, why the switch to Resillence? If the SW Rep & Manager both said the problem was the amount of colorant, I'm not sure I understand why you'd apply a different paint to an entire side. Doesn't that either commit you to having to re-paint the rest now in Resillence, or repainting the Resillence side back to Duration?


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Switched to resilience for the "early moisture resistance" sales ploy. I know the whole house needs to be repainted bc the water marks are on each side. If it fails the water test this morning I'm am using a different brand of paint. I am not going back to Duration I know that's already a problem 


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> The sales rep and a store manager showed up and both said it happened bc of the amount of colorant. Still not an excuse for one of the most highly rated exterior paints on the market. Even you sw haters have to agree that it is most often a very good durable paint along with color retention. The finish has to be a flat. The customer is very firm on that finish. Sw also had a hell of a time color matching. So if I go elsewhere I need a very competent store manager to get the match right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, this product does have a pretty good track record overall. But to say it is the colorant? Then the COLORANT sucks! And I think that is a pretty lame excuse to be honest. I don't really think they entirely know what they are talking about. This is more than likely surfactant leeching. SW also has a long track record for that too! Use a diluted house cleaner and power wash that off with a low pressure setting and it should be fine.

But if SW wants to pay you to repaint it because of their ignorance then what the heck? Take the money.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Did your rep and SW store manager offer you anything? I'd agree with other that it seems like surfactant leeching, but if pressure washing it off doesn't work then I'd switch brands. 


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I made the switch to aura low lusture. My weather looks sun free until Thursday. The house will be completely repainted today. Should I drop tarps from the gutters to ground until the rain is done or is that sufficient time for it to setup and not happen again


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I made the switch to aura low lusture. My weather looks sun free until Thursday. The house will be completely repainted today. Should I drop tarps from the gutters to ground until the rain is done or is that sufficient time for it to setup and not happen again
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm going to assume you meant rain free until Thursday. If that's the case it'll be fine.

Over the years I've heard some people say that you shouldn't hit exteriors with paint if you have any expectation of rain within the next 24hrs. How on earth would anyone get anything done? Environment Canada loves to play the 40%pop game which effectively means nothing. Might, but might not. Maybe, but we're not sure. Thanks for that.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes rain free till Thursday 


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I know a few of you have mentioned the surfactant leeching but I tried wiping it off and nothing happened. I think it's just the pigments but a hard lesson learned is a good lesson learned. Bm is looking better by the day 


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Did you try hot water with a microfiber rag? The surfactant is basically soap so you should notice some bubbles and then rinse with a pressure washer or hose.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

It doesn't make any sense to me to introduce water to the siding which was clearly the problem to begin with. It was all recoated today with aura low lusture. Btw what are bm reatailers getting for aura? I paid 468.00 for 6 gallons today. If it works it's worth it but damn that's high


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> It doesn't make any sense to me to introduce water to the siding which was clearly the problem to begin with. It was all recoated today with aura low lusture. Btw what are bm reatailers getting for aura? I paid 468.00 for 6 gallons today. If it works it's worth it but damn that's high
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's a bit salty, sounds like shelf price. Aura does has a regional MSP (minimum sale price). I think we're in the high $50s for exterior.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Please let us know how this project turns out.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Just curious, why the switch to Resillence? If the SW Rep & Manager both said the problem was the amount of colorant, I'm not sure I understand why you'd apply a different paint to an entire side. Doesn't that either commit you to having to re-paint the rest now in Resillence, or repainting the Resillence side back to Duration?


That's what I was wondering....if it's a colorant issue sw isn't gonna be able to fix it no matter what product of theirs gets used...the only real change would be to go with a different tint system. Bm has that, for a price of course...


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

That price was with a promo they were running. Retail was 79.99/gal. For low lusture and up to 81.99/gal for aura semi. I'd love to switch to bm but all their prices are crazy. At the same time if I'm not second guessing myself or being nervous about the integrity of the paint it's worth it. Even the interior prices are high. Regal select starts at 54.99 and up to 59.99. Only one retailer around me will put in contractor pricing .(not a convenient place to get at either) All other stores everyone pays the same with no exception. Add that to nobody delivering it and the actual price of getting paint to a job sky rockets 


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

That's kind of weird that nobody is offering contractor pricing for BM. I buy it at a smallish department store and even they give contractors a good deal.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> It doesn't make any sense to me to introduce water to the siding which was clearly the problem to begin with. It was all recoated today with aura low lusture. Btw what are bm reatailers getting for aura? I paid 468.00 for 6 gallons today. If it works it's worth it but damn that's high
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't get why you are bitching about the price if the product worked SW should be reimbursing you what's the problem?

This thread reeks of CD drama...:vs_laugh:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Delta Painting said:


> I don't get why you are bitching about the price if the product worked SW should be reimbursing you what's the problem?
> 
> This thread reeks of CD drama...:vs_laugh:


Probably because he's thinking of switching over to BM from here on out.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PRC said:


> That's a bit salty, sounds like shelf price. Aura does has a regional MSP (minimum sale price). I think we're in the high $50s for exterior.


Yeah that's the retail price. Comes to $78.00 a gallon! YIKES! I really don't understand how they can get away with that! No wonder so many painters think BM is so high and the dealers suck! I honestly couldn't do that to anyone that represented themselves as a professional painter.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

Emerald retails in the mid seventies. We, however, get it for a few bucks more than our Duration price.

All BM stores have contractor pricing around here.


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## tnw322 (Jun 6, 2016)

That is a lot of colorant for a deep base. Check their data pages for recommended colorant limits. They might have exceeded and that will cause lots of issues with dry time.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

jr.sr. painting said:


> That price was with a promo they were running. Retail was 79.99/gal. For low lusture and up to 81.99/gal for aura semi. I'd love to switch to bm but all their prices are crazy. At the same time if I'm not second guessing myself or being nervous about the integrity of the paint it's worth it. Even the interior prices are high. Regal select starts at 54.99 and up to 59.99. Only one retailer around me will put in contractor pricing .(not a convenient place to get at either) All other stores everyone pays the same with no exception. Add that to nobody delivering it and the actual price of getting paint to a job sky rockets
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love Ben Moore stores and products. I use them whenever appropriate or when I can. Every job has it's own variables beteeen product performance needs, application characteristics, drying well in humid weather etc...

Not every situation calls for Ben Moore products though. Aura is the last paint I'd put on whem there is possible humidity or surfactant issues. If Aura worked that's great, I am glad to hear that. I had or seen issues with Aura a day or even two days after it was applied and dried. I've had one rare problem with Regal ext, but it was a small issue, easily fixable. I pushed spraying into the evening and this exterior was in the shade. So areas didn't coalesce entirely right. 

On that note Resilience is pretty much known for being the go-to paint for quick/set up time, beneficial on cool or humid days. It costs a lot less and I believe there would be less worries about the paint curing.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

PACman said:


> Yeah that's the retail price. Comes to $78.00 a gallon! YIKES! I really don't understand how they can get away with that! No wonder so many painters think BM is so high and the dealers suck! I honestly couldn't do that to anyone that represented themselves as a professional painter.


2s


I don't think that many painters think the prices are too high, and that the stores suck. Companies I work for and the clients do care about quality products and the cost, and aren't opposed to BM or they specify it to be used. I still have to get the appropriate product at a reasonable cost, and have the least amount of issues, worries, hassles..besides I try to steer clear of Aura when I have the chance, because I am looking out for the clients budget, and feel I can do wonderful work with Regal.

I also value and appreciate my local Ben Moore stores and their support.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> 2s
> 
> 
> I don't think that many painters think the prices are too high, and that the stores suck. Companies I work for and the clients do care about quality products and the cost, and aren't opposed to BM or they specify it to be used. I still have to get the appropriate product at a reasonable cost, and have the least amount of issues, worries, hassles..besides I try to steer clear of Aura when I have the chance, because I am looking out for the clients budget, and feel I can do wonderful work with Regal.
> ...


Good! You are in the minority i believe. But it is good to see someone still appreciates quality and service over cheap pricing and convenience.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Something else i just thought of. Residual Simple Green from under the slats? Could be!

Du-oh!


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

PACman said:


> Something else i just thought of. Residual Simple Green from under the slats? Could be!
> 
> Du-oh!


 I was thinking of the same thing actually. That stuff would be draining after the rinse.

I clean my bike with that stuff and it definately leaves an oily-like residue. I'd wash a house with BM Clean.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

We tarped off both of the large sides where the major problems were. Expecting atleast an 1" of rain tomorrow. Better to be safe than sorry. As far as the simple green from under the laps... we only powerwashed the garage with straight water and the same problem happened there. I must credit sw for being upfront and honest with me and not trying to make excuses for their products. I just couldn't try another coat using SW and risk another fail. I'm gonna leave the tarps on until the weekend. I also setup a bunch of boards that were all clear pine, primed with exterior oil primer and all topcoated with Duration flat and satin as well as resilience flat. Made the same two boards with aura flat and low lusture. I'm leaving them in the rain and I'll see what the result will be. Customer service is just as important as product in my opinion and sw has any competition in my area covered like a wet blanket. I'm not just going to abandon a company that has treated us so well for the last 10 years










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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Haven't checked it out for myself yet, but BM doesn't do contractor prices around here from what I've heard.

Duration and Resilience have worked well for all of our jobs.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm going to take the tarps off this afternoon. Fingers crossed there is more rain coming later it's too windy to keep them up. I don't need the gutters pulled off too


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## norm210 (Jun 9, 2012)

I am speaking with 37 years in this business. Ever since s/w went to zero v.o.c. colorant, around 7 or 8 years ago here in the lower corner of Alabama that has been happening nearly every time to me on enterior or exterior .more often than not the paint will not stay mixed in the can more than overnight, sometimes 15 minutes. I have told my paint Store, paint rep.no satisfaction. They say they have reported that to there lab.i have never gotten any answers. About 1 year ago I did a 20,000 plus interior with s/w harmony the paint would not stay mixed from the store 2 miles away to the job site. I have just about quit using their paint. Case in point, last week on a very nice house, using Pro mar 200,super paint satin in the garage (due to humidity in my neck of the woods ) same problem and to boot paint had trash in about every gallon.my answer is, go to a different paint Store that does not use zero v.o.c colorant. I don't know how it is where you live but my paint bill to s/w is to high to have to eat these labor and paint costs for ,pardon the expession,40.00 a gallon crappie paint. Hope my rambling on will help .P.S is it just me or do the paint Stores not give a flip about the painters having a good reputation and customer satisfaction just to sell the paint and make their monthly sales goal

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

norm210 said:


> I am speaking with 37 years in this business. Ever since s/w went to zero v.o.c. colorant, around 7 or 8 years ago here in the lower corner of Alabama that has been happening nearly every time to me on enterior or exterior .more often than not the paint will not stay mixed in the can more than overnight, sometimes 15 minutes. I have told my paint Store, paint rep.no satisfaction. They say they have reported that to there lab.i have never gotten any answers. About 1 year ago I did a 20,000 plus interior with s/w harmony the paint would not stay mixed from the store 2 miles away to the job site. I have just about quit using their paint. Case in point, last week on a very nice house, using Pro mar 200,super paint satin in the garage (due to humidity in my neck of the woods ) same problem and to boot paint had trash in about every gallon.my answer is, go to a different paint Store that does not use zero v.o.c colorant. I don't know how it is where you live but my paint bill to s/w is to high to have to eat these labor and paint costs for ,pardon the expession,40.00 a gallon crappie paint. Hope my rambling on will help .P.S is it just me or do the paint Stores not give a flip about the painters having a good reputation and customer satisfaction just to sell the paint and make their monthly sales goal
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


The big problem is that the Colorant SW uses is not a true 0 voc colorant. The only two MAJOR brands that use true 0 voc colorants are Ben Moore and California. SW (and P&L to be honest and fair) use a colorant that is a low voc version of their traditional colorants.And if they are only shaking their paint for 3 minutes when they use the low voc colorants they are not shaking it long enough. Low voc high solids paints using low voc colorants must be shaken a LOT longer then the three minutes most paint stores shake for. It is not long enough to properly disperse the colorant. That may be part of the separation issues you have been having. Although it is no excuse it may at least be the reason you have been having problems. (it has become quite common for the low voc yellow oxide colorant to not properly disperse no matter how long it gets shaken. I can see where colors with a lot of this particular colorant could be a problem.)


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## norm210 (Jun 9, 2012)

Thanks for the response. When I have had a problem with the gallons separating, I spend no less than 5 minutes with a goldblatt double paint mixer in my cordless drill re-mixing,more often than not it will not stay mixed.it really depends on the line of paint I am using at the time.I understand about the colorant and the deep base issues.if I could figure out how to upload a photo, I will. Believe me you will probably say "what the heck is going on with this junk "

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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

We always make the SW guys shake twice but sometimes it still doesn't disperse properly. I think that sometimes it's just a bad batch where no amount of mixing seems to work. In those cases I have dumped the paint out of that bucket into something else because the colorant will be stuck to the sides of the can and all it does is add more swirls.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

getrex said:


> We always make the SW guys shake twice but sometimes it still doesn't disperse properly. I think that sometimes it's just a bad batch where no amount of mixing seems to work. In those cases I have dumped the paint out of that bucket into something else because the colorant will be stuck to the sides of the can and all it does is add more swirls.


They say "If you shake it more than twice, you're playing with it."


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> They say "If you shake it more than twice, you're playing with it."


Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I've never in my 14yrs of painting bought a gallon of SW or even been in one of their stores. That being said, since I've joined this forum I've heard so many guys telling horror stories and grumbling about the paint and service. It always makes me wonder why they keep going back. Not to say I haven't seen guys saying good things about SW as well.

If I had to continually reshake, fiddle with paint all the time, I'd be switching paint brands.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Shaking twice works 98% of the time so it's not that big of a deal. At least working with Cashmere makes it worth it to me. Love Cashmere. But it isn't my company so we use SW because the boss says so. He won't do anywhere that doesn't give contractor pricing. But also, the SW reps and store staff in this area generally know what they are doing. It's all about who is behind the counter.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

getrex said:


> It's all about who is behind the counter.


i agree with that. i go to dulex cloverdale sw and bm. the difference in products seems debatable but then again im mostly interior


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> They say "If you shake it more than twice, you're playing with it."


Some guy in a restroom in Chicago said that to my ex-Marine sniper/scout brother once. He told the guy "it's f*cking mine! I'll do whatever the F*ck i want to f*cking do with it!" Marines love that word.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
> 
> I've never in my 14yrs of painting bought a gallon of SW or even been in one of their stores. That being said,* since I've joined this forum I've heard so many guys telling horror stories and grumbling about the paint and service. It always makes me wonder why they keep going back. Not to say I haven't seen guys saying good things about SW as well.
> 
> If I had to continually reshake, fiddle with paint all the time, I'd be switching paint brands.*




With the exception of primers, I use SW paint almost exclusively. This is due entirely to geography. There are no PPG/Porter or Benjamin Moore stores within 30 miles of me. My options are SW, Home Depot, Lowe's, and Ace Hardware (which carries a very limited selection of BM paint and offers no contractor discount). California paint is nonexistent in the state of Florida. 

I would love to try and use other brands. For logistic reasons, it's either SW, Behr, or Valspar. I go with SW, but have used all three enough to make an informed decision and lean towards SW. 

That being said, I've never had an issue with colorants or paint separating to where it became a hassle for me. 

The SW store I frequent most is a training store, as it's two senior employees each have over 30 years of time with SW. I get great service. I think I'm fortunate in that regard, and the reps have been helpful, although they cycle too frequently for my liking. 

I know the pricing is quirky but, honestly, for my rather low volume of purchases compared to many others, I think I get darned good pricing.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Finished the job today and the aura low lusture pulled through for us big time. We will be using bm on the job we start tomorrow 


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