# Tannin primer / sealer



## Glenn-1

I’ve always been using an oil primer for wood with knots. Is this stuff just as good? Be nice to run a water base through sprayer for wood ceilings if I can quarantee tannins will not bleed through! I think it use to be called kilz max!


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## finishesbykevyn

I don't trust any latex primer for knots. Spot them with BIN and then maybe th3 Kilz will work for the rest. Maybe..


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## Glenn-1

finishesbykevyn said:


> I don't trust any latex primer for knots. Spot them with BIN and then maybe th3 Kilz will work for the rest. Maybe..


That’s what i was thinking. Other paint stores have two types always a latex for some things then oil for tannins. This is one of the few that says for tannins. Must be marketing for diy’s. They do get better with water base all the time though. I quess when we see a few water base ones bragging about good for tannins then we might be getting somewhere.


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## Holland

Glenn-1 said:


> That’s what i was thinking. Other paint stores have two types always a latex for some things then oil for tannins. This is one of the few that says for tannins. Must be marketing for diy’s. They do get better with water base all the time though. I quess when we see a few water base ones bragging about good for tannins then we might be getting somewhere.


It's probably like Zinsser's SmartPrime. I did a thread on it a couple months ago. I think they are trying to phase oils out industry wide. 

We'll probably all be using wb primers for everything in the future. Does California still allow oil Based primers? That should inform us on the subject.


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## fromthenorthwest

_ I haven't tried smart Prime on Knots I don't believe, but it works great for standard tannin bleed_


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## Magnum Drywall

For severe stains on wood, Kilz with shellac is the only product I know will actually work.


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## mug

Kilz has shellac?


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## Magnum Drywall

KILZ RESTORATION™ InteriorPrimer | KILZ®


KILZ RESTORATION™ Primer is a new generation water-based primer, sealer and stainblocker offering performance of traditional oil and shellac-based primers.




www.kilz.com


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## finishesbykevyn

Magnum Drywall said:


> View attachment 112075
> 
> View attachment 112075
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KILZ RESTORATION™ InteriorPrimer | KILZ®
> 
> 
> KILZ RESTORATION™ Primer is a new generation water-based primer, sealer and stainblocker offering performance of traditional oil and shellac-based primers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kilz.com


Theres no Shellac in there. Its a waterborne product with "oil & shellac like properties. Just sayin.


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## WildBill

Wow, I was just going to start a thread about this topic, I'm wanting to transition from BIN to a waterbase/waterborne primer, most of the work is cabinet rework. I have had great success with the MIlesi Cabinet Coatings, primed with BIN. I know, why quit something which works right? I have brush/rolled the BIN because of combustion issues, then top coated with 1k or 2k Milesi and man does it turn out beautiful. I have a fairly large job and using the airless to lay down a WB Primer would be ideal. A friend of mine swears by the WB Renner Primer, but access to the product can be challenging. So what is the solution for a WB Primer selection?


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## cocomonkeynuts

WildBill said:


> Wow, I was just going to start a thread about this topic, I'm wanting to transition from BIN to a waterbase/waterborne primer, most of the work is cabinet rework. I have had great success with the MIlesi Cabinet Coatings, primed with BIN. I know, why quit something which works right? I have brush/rolled the BIN because of combustion issues, then top coated with 1k or 2k Milesi and man does it turn out beautiful. I have a fairly large job and using the airless to lay down a WB Primer would be ideal. A friend of mine swears by the WB Renner Primer, but access to the product can be challenging. So what is the solution for a WB Primer selection?


try the general finishes stain blocking primer. really works great


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## WildBill

cocomonkeynuts said:


> try the general finishes stain blocking primer. really works great


I'm going to take your advice and shoot me some General this week, I will let you know my thoughts on it, again thanks.


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## cocomonkeynuts

WildBill said:


> I'm going to take your advice and shoot me some General this week, I will let you know my thoughts on it, again thanks.


FYI the first coat locks in any stains, a second coat gives you a nice clean base to work with. Its pretty pricey but I used it over an orange dye stain recently and didn't have any bleed through. GF uses a modified acrylic/epoxy resin.


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## WildBill

cocomonkeynuts said:


> FYI the first coat locks in any stains, a second coat gives you a nice clean base to work with. Its pretty pricey but I used it over an orange dye stain recently and didn't have any bleed through. GF uses a modified acrylic/epoxy resin.


Pricey for sure, Yikes!!!, Did it require any final sanding out after the second coat.


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## Holland

So basically the next generation in waterborne primers now offers "stain and tannin blocking" similar to oils. 

Kilz, GF, Zinnser. 

Personally, I will be glad to move away from solvent based.


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## cocomonkeynuts

WildBill said:


> Pricey for sure, Yikes!!!, Did it require any final sanding out after the second coat.


Why would you not sand your primer


Holland said:


> So basically the next generation in waterborne primers now offers "stain and tannin blocking" similar to oils.
> 
> Kilz, GF, Zinnser.
> 
> Personally, I will be glad to move away from solvent based.


They seem to take a different approach than an oil by being a 2 coat system. First coat absorbing and locking in tannins/stains. Second coat giving you a base to paint over.

I still see oil having a place especially over kitchen cabinets where there is grease, and more cost effective. Though of course keeping seperate equipment for solvents has its own costs along with solvents and PPE.


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## Holland

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Why would you not sand your primer
> 
> They seem to take a different approach than an oil by being a 2 coat system. First coat absorbing and locking in tannins/stains. Second coat giving you a base to paint over.
> 
> I still see oil having a place especially over kitchen cabinets where there is grease, and more cost effective. Though of course keeping seperate equipment for solvents has its own costs along with solvents and PPE.


For light to moderate stain-blocking, I'm sold on next-gen wb primers. What are they calling them, to differentiate from standard wb primers? "Hybrid Primers"? 

Agree that in kitchens the cleaning of grease and sanding must be more thorough if "new" wb primers are used, as the adhesive properties are not yet comparable to traditional primers.


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## Holland

WildBill said:


> Pricey for sure, Yikes!!!, Did it require any final sanding out after the second coat.


We did a thorough test of SmartPrime, and found that it was smooth enough to paint without sanding in some instances, and was slightly smoother when a little M1 Extender was introduced as a leveling agent. 

However it benefitted from sanding (when time and budget allowed), and was able to sand to powder and top-coat in less than an hour.


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## Glenn-1

Holland said:


> So basically the next generation in waterborne primers now offers "stain and tannin blocking" similar to oils.
> 
> Kilz, GF, Zinnser.
> 
> Personally, I will be glad to move away from solvent based.


They need two coats to work.


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## Holland

Glenn-1 said:


> They need two coats to work.


We had success with one coat, although severe bleed-through needed two coats.


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## Glenn-1

Holland said:


> We had success with one coat, although severe bleed-through needed two coats.


I found they don’t hold upon knots. And when I asked my supplier if I could quote them on it working they told me oil is still best!


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## WildBill

"try the general finishes stain blocking primer. really works great", I tested one door with the General Stain Blocker. I'm impressed, appears to have exceptional adhesion properties, I let it dry over night, tried to scratch the hell out of it this morning, nothing, sands great, looking good!! Monday will be the real test over the Milesi. Expensive adventure here, will see? Thanks for the recommendation.


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## CApainter

Water stains and Tannins are two different challenges. For decades, paint manufacturers have had waterborne products to address tannins. They are designed to work exactly like Coco said. The first coat for tannin absorption and lock in, while the second coat is for encapsulation once the first coat has thoroughly cured. 

The problem is, most painters rarely allow the first coat to thoroughly cure before applying the second. Then they'll complain that the tannins are bleeding through. 

As far as water stains, only oil, or shellac works.


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## Holland

CApainter said:


> Water stains and Tannins are two different challenges. For decades, paint manufacturers have had waterborne products to address tannins. They are designed to work exactly like Coco said. The first coat for tannin absorption and lock in, while the second coat is for encapsulation once the first coat has thoroughly cured.
> 
> The problem is, most painters rarely allow the first coat to thoroughly cure before applying the second. Then they'll complain that the tannins are bleeding through.
> 
> As far as water stains, only oil, or shellac works.


I rarely see much water damage, other than I can do with a chip brush and a quart of BIN (or a spray can). Same with knot holes. 

I think it's great that there are waterborne primers that can handle many of the other stains.


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## CApainter

Holland said:


> I rarely see much water damage, other than I can do with a chip brush and a quart of BIN (or a spray can). Same with knot holes.
> 
> I think it's great that there are waterborne primers that can handle many of the other stains.


Zinsser Bullseye 123 waterborne is a good all purpose primer. It claims to kill stains, but I find it doesn't do as well, or immediate of a job, as Zinsser Cover Stain, or Zinsser BIN. And the reason for this, I believe, is that Zinsser 123 is sold as a "Fast Dry" primer.

Consequently, painters think it can be recoated within 45 minutes like all of the other fast dry organic solvent based (alcohol, naptha, touline, etc.) primers. And in an industry where speed is the primary skill set, who has time to sit around and wait to do things right, or environmentally conscientious for that matter.


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## Holland

CApainter said:


> Zinsser Bullseye 123 waterborne is a good all purpose primer. It claims to kill stains, but I find it doesn't do as well, or immediate of a job, as Zinsser Cover Stain, or Zinsser BIN. And the reason for this, I believe, is that Zinsser 123 is sold as a "Fast Dry" primer.
> 
> Consequently, painters think it can be recoated within 45 minutes like all of the other fast dry organic solvent based (alcohol, naptha, touline, etc.) primers. And in an industry where speed is the primary skill set, who has time to sit around and wait to do things right, or environmentally conscientious for that matter.


How do you feel about Zinsser's SmartPrime aka 123plus - (their contribution to the new wb Stain-blocking primers)?

123 is great for some things, bit I don't trust it for everything. I'm with you on that.
CS is a great primer, but is hard (personally) to handle indoors. BIN is great, but also, hard for me to handle in large quantities.


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## CApainter

Holland said:


> How do you feel about Zinsser's SmartPrime aka 123plus - (their contribution to the new wb Stain-blocking primers)?
> 
> 123 is great for some things, bit I don't trust it for everything. I'm with you on that.
> CS is a great primer, but is hard (personally) to handle indoors. BIN is great, but also, hard for me to handle in large quantities.


I haven't used the Smart Prime Plus. The TDS recommends a two hour dry time before recoating. It also suggests using BIN, or Cover Stain for "severe " staining. I will try it though. I can't believe I haven't . I think it's been available since 2011?


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## Holland

CApainter said:


> I haven't used the Smart Prime Plus. The TDS recommends a two hour dry time before recoating. It also suggests using BIN, or Cover Stain for "severe " staining. I will try it though. I can't believe I haven't . I think it's been available since 2011?


This year was first time I tried it.
can see making use of it in certain circumstances.

Edit: I'm fairly certain it is a one hour coat time. It sands to powder in less than an hour. We re-coated in less than an hour without any apparent issues.


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## WildBill

I shot 18 doors yesterday with the General Finish Stain Blocker. Lays and levels exceptionally well. Humidity was a little higher yesterday, so about 3 hour dry time. Used a 310 FFLP Tip. Only small issue which I normally do not experience is the tip would quickly clog up, but once you reversed the tip, spray, return to the spray position it was fine. On a side note, decided to take time off to fix an 02 sensor on my 2010, F150, wrench slipped cut off my right index finger tip, so I will be at a work stoppage!!!


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## CApainter

WildBill said:


> I shot 18 doors yesterday with the General Finish Stain Blocker. Lays and levels exceptionally well. Humidity was a little higher yesterday, so about 3 hour dry time. Used a 310 FFLP Tip. Only small issue which I normally do not experience is the tip would quickly clog up, but once you reversed the tip, spray, return to the spray position it was fine. On a side note, decided to take time off to fix an 02 sensor on my 2010, F150, wrench slipped cut off my right index finger tip, so I will be at a work stoppage!!!


Use duct tape.


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## Glenn-1

CApainter said:


> Use duct tape.


On the finger or the o2 sensor?


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## cocomonkeynuts

WildBill said:


> I shot 18 doors yesterday with the General Finish Stain Blocker. Lays and levels exceptionally well. Humidity was a little higher yesterday, so about 3 hour dry time. Used a 310 FFLP Tip. Only small issue which I normally do not experience is the tip would quickly clog up, but once you reversed the tip, spray, return to the spray position it was fine. On a side note, decided to take time off to fix an 02 sensor on my 2010, F150, wrench slipped cut off my right index finger tip, so I will be at a work stoppage!!!


Sorry about your finger...

I like the GF product a lot only complaint is its non tintable and the cost is prohibitive for many. even fresh start is half the price.


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## Singular

Glenn-1 said:


> I’ve always been using an oil primer for wood with knots. Is this stuff just as good? Be nice to run a water base through sprayer for wood ceilings if I can quarantee tannins will not bleed through! I think it use to be called kilz max!
> 
> View attachment 112024


All I can tell it sands rather poorly....


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## Singular

Holland said:


> We did a thorough test of SmartPrime, and found that it was smooth enough to paint without sanding in some instances, and was slightly smoother when a little M1 Extender was introduced as a leveling agent.
> 
> However it benefitted from sanding (when time and budget allowed), and was able to sand to powder and top-coat in less than an hour.





Singular said:


> All I can tell it sands rather poorly....


Try Green light coatings 2004 primer


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## Holland

Singular said:


> Try Green light coatings 2004 primer


No access to GLC in this area.


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