# Give Me Your Questions about RRP Here..



## parodi

.....and I will repeat them to an EPA spokesperson.

I just got off the phone with the NY EPA Division. I have been assured that I will be assigned a person from the EPA who can be questioned about SPECIFIC scenarios about all different contractors. I have been assured that I can do a Q & A with this contact and that I can write this down in a PWC Column and that the answers will be authoritative (at the time of writing since this is still in flux.)

PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD CLEAN. JUST QUESTIONS DIRECTED TO THE EPA SPOKESMAN as if you were at a press conference..... please no veering off topic.

My first question (certainly not my last. BTW, you can have more than one question too.):
*
"Could you please elaborate on the meaning of "disturbing paint?" Is there anything beyond sanding or scraping that could be deemed to be 'disturbing' with respect to the RRP Law? "*


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## ewingpainting.net

What is RRP?
What is EPA? 
What is SWPPPS?


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## CamillusPaints

Parody, great idea on this thread.
My question.

Where is my source of compliant literature and products. 
Ex residential phamplets and sign off sheets, trainging sign offs, test kits, room by room test an sign off sheets and whatever info I need to be compliant...


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## PatsPainting

Yes, great thread parodi. RCP posted someones blog who did the same thing and did not get very many questions answered. I hope you have better luck and not the ole "Let me ask the legal department and get back to you on it"

Here is the blog that RCP posted - Blog

Pat


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## PatsPainting

My question would be - Ask the dude if he could register here. If he can't maybe they could assign someone who could. Would be a huge help, and don't let him say its not in the budget, with all the new cash they are making they should be able to hire one guy to help us out. 

Pat


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## LA Painter

Thanks - I have a question;

Does “Disturbing Paint” mean *all* paint, or just lead paint? 

Pre 1978 homes would typically have many layers of non-lead paint covering any lead paint. Sanding the surface before before repainting would NOT be disturbing the lead paint.

Going through the RRP process (and cost) to simply scuff-up a water/oil-base surface is a joke.


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## parodi

ewingpainting.net said:


> What I RRP?
> What is EPA?
> What is SWPPPS?


I think if I ask them those questions it will sour the interview.


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## parodi

PatsPainting said:


> Yes, great thread parodi. RCP posted someones blog who did the same thing and did not get very many questions answered. I hope you have better luck and not the ole "Let me ask the legal department and get back to you on it"
> 
> Here is the blog that RCP posted - Blog
> 
> Pat


One of the nice things about writing a column is that it does give you some juice. I tell anybody who will listen that 40,000 copies of PWC Magazine goes out to the USA and Canada (but don't tell them that most of those go in the garbage immediately or serve as pet bird underlayment.)

If the EPA gives me the same runaround they gave that blogger I can always write a humorous column about the experience. I realize this does nobody any good except me (I still get paid) and those who need a good laugh about their increasingly Kafkaesque government.


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## BrushJockey

Great! I suspect you saw the q's I asked of the instructor in the other thread ( rrp-all trades) p2. You might try them again on a real EPA guy. 

Thanks for doing this!

BY request! Here's the Q's :

I took the class and need a clarification on what the definition of "Disturbed" means to a painted surface. 

For instance, as a cert. painter I go into a house to paint a bedroom, it is a target age and I assume lead is probably present, most likely under several coats of paint on the woodwork. I do no repair, wipe the ww with TSP substitute for prep, and prime and paint all surfaces. Have I disturbed lead paint? 
Would I have to set up the containment?

Another example- same room had uneven walls that I wanted to smooth out. I skim walls completely 3 times, and sand the top layer of mud that I applied- same question- have I disturbed lead paint? 

Last one- 
I do some wall repair on this room by screwing cracks in the plaster etc, I set up the containment. After I finish repair and perhaps prime, could the containment come down and be finished cleaned before finish coats of paint? 

No wait.. one more

I want to apply a patch to a wall, or a chip in some woodwork etc. 
I know that if I hit the area with a primer like Gardz or a tinted one I can tell if I sand past it or not, and if sanding is just on new mud it takes some effort to bust through a tough prime. Which means I can feel confident myself that I'm not grinding into earlier layers, particularly if they're already under several coats.
Can I make this call? 

And I suppose it will be good to know this one-

Who is doing the enforcement?

And is the EPA aware that they are setting up a system that people report each other to a gov't agency? Another country went down this road 60 years ago. Didn't work out real well for them... OK , that was commentary..


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## ewingpainting.net

Although I understand that RRP effects our industry, and the law is to be taken serious. I don't understand the fuss about it. It not that difficult. Ether your going to adapt to the laws or your not. And that might very well determine your success. The painting industry has really got it easy compared to other trades. I Talk to a sandblaster the other day ago. The chit they have to do to comply with the EPA and California State laws is. Ours is a nickel in the bucket compared to them Then we had a discussion on his insurance requirements, holy cow. In my opinion Painters got it easy. Why do you think every time some yahoo that get laid off his or her true profession starts a painting company.


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## y.painting

1) How do you put ladders on plastic? How do you work around bushes? How do you work in narrow spaces? In general, how do you work within the sometimes impossible confines that the law demands?

2) Is there a standardized process to turn non-compliant contractors/hacks in?

3) Will we be getting free booklets for the HO to sign off on or do we have to purchase them? Do we have to leave the booklet with the HO or is it enough to have them merely sign off that they've read it/seen it?


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## RCP

Great thread and idea, thanks.
One thing to remember, all the information is on the EPA site, but it is not updated, but you can check here for the updated code.

The trainers all rely on what the EPA says, but they may interpet it differently, or it may have changed. You can't rely on what they say, look to the code/rule.
It would be great to have someone from the EPA, even better, a webinar.

My question:
Could an uncertified painter go in to only paint ( or paper!) if the area has been cleared by the CLR of record?
Is there a more user friendly site we can send homeowners to for information?


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## dubinpainting

QUESTION????
I have a job I will be doing in June. The house was bulit in 1920 the owner want's me to paint the porch. The porch was bult in 2000, but its connected to the house that was bulit in 1920. It's also a day care, do the rules still aply?


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## johnthepainter

how do we know how old the house is?

most homeowners dont know the date their home was built.

do we take the ho's word on the date it was built?

so if we have a signed document where the ho says the home was built in 1980, are we safe?


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## ewingpainting.net

If I worked on a house built in 1979 but they didn't get the final until jan. 1980. Would I still be liable for removing lead products?


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## NEPS.US

What happens if you start a job for a remodeler and find that other non certified trades have disturbed lead and not contained correctly. Do you assume responsibility and liability once you step in?

How do you document your work? What if the area you performed work is disturbed by the HO day, weeks, months or years once you are done. How long are you liable.


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## brushmonkey

I got one for ya, how the Fk are you supposed to reclaim all the water from pressure washing a 2 story mold covered exterior?? Do they have any idea how impossible not to mention ridiculous that is??? Do they really expect contractors to "sponge" down homes!? Do they get HIGH at the EPA or what??!!

Just curious....


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## vermontpainter

I would like an honest answer: If we ignore all of this will it go away?


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## KLaw

If I get certified - can I train / qualify subs that work for us?


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## RCP

Will the Lead test kit results be accepted on drywall?


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## daArch

ahhhh, so many questions, so many wise-ass answers :thumbup:

Jim, all I ask is that you ask all those questions us paperhangers want answers to, which are based around the premise - how can this possible affect us ?


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## ewingpainting.net

Im the wise one, I guess your the ass bill :thumbsup:











screw the law what about the health you risk of yourself and your workers.
Any questions?


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## ewingpainting.net




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## johnthepainter

will this rule apply to repainting chinese toys?


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## DeanV

Only if the toys are in a pre-78 home.


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## aaron61

high fibre said:


> how do we know how old the house is?
> 
> most homeowners dont know the date their home was built.
> 
> do we take the ho's word on the date it was built?
> 
> so if we have a signed document where the ho says the home was built in 1980, are we safe?


Public records/Tax collector


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## aaron61

ewingpainting.net said:


> If I worked on a house built in 1979 but they didn't get the final until jan. 1980. Would I still be liable for removing lead products?


It's pre 1978


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## aaron61

fresh coat said:


> If I get certified - can I train / qualify subs that work for us?


NO....................................


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## johnthepainter

aaron61 said:


> Public records/Tax collector


 
now we are investigators.


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## parodi

The questions so far:
 

1.Where is my source of compliance literature and products?

2.Does “disturbing paint” mean all paint, or just lead paint? Pre 1978 homes would typically have many layers of non-lead paint covering any lead paint. Sanding the surface before before repainting would not be disturbing the lead paint.

3. 
a) In exterior situations we are supposed to cover the ground with plastic sheeting. How do you put ladders on plastic?
b)What happens when RRP rules contradict OSHA rules such as putting a ladder on plastic sheeting?

4. 
 a) How do you work around bushes? Do you cover them completely or cut the plastic sheeting around the stumps of bushes?
 b) If we have to cover shrubs and plantings with plastic on very hot days who is responsible for damages if the shrubs die?

6. Is there a standardized process to report non-compliant contractors/hacks?

7. Do we have to leave the booklet with the homeowner or is it enough to have them merely sign off that they've read it/seen it?

8. Could an uncertified contractor go into a job to only paint or paper if the area has been cleared by a certified lead abatement person?

9. I have a job I will be doing in June. The house was built in 1920 but the owner wants me to paint only the porch. The porch was bult in 2000, but its connected to the house that was built in 1920. Is this to be considered a structure built in 2000 or one built in 1920?

10. Many homeowners don't know the exact year their home was built. Do we take the homeowner's word on the date it was built or do we have to do research on the property?

11. What happens if you start a job on a proper RRP legal basis and other non-legal contractors come in to disturb lead paint and do not contain it correctly while you are working there?
a) Do you assume responsibility and liability for any other trade once you commence work?
b) Can you notify the EPA in real time and have them send someone immediately to police the situation?
 
12.How do you document your work? What if the area you performed work in is disturbed by the homeowner day, weeks, months or years after you are done. How long are you liable for presence of lead in the area you worked in?

13. Could you please elaborate on the meaning of "disturbing paint?" Is there anything beyond sanding or scraping that could be deemed to be 'disturbing' with respect to the RRP Law?


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## TheRogueBristle

Great questions. Anything ever come of this parodi?


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## dubinpainting

dubinpainting said:


> QUESTION????
> I have a job I will be doing in June. The house was bulit in 1920 the owner want's me to paint the porch. The porch was bult in 2000, but its connected to the house that was bulit in 1920. It's also a day care, do the rules still aply?


If you could let me know the answer to this one before June I would apreciate it.:thumbup:


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## painting247

I would like to know if a the EPA has decided on an APPROVED TEST KIT. Last I knew, they hadn't yet decided what kit to use and the previous ones give a false positive. Thanks


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## y.painting

painting247 said:


> I would like to know if a the EPA has decided on an APPROVED TEST KIT. Last I knew, they hadn't yet decided what kit to use and the previous ones give a false positive. Thanks


I am not as afraid of false positives as I am of false negatives. Even if the EPA approves one, you'd still be liable for any false negatives. I say just presume and be done with it.


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## RCP

EPA will be approving more in September.
_(3) Before September 1, 2010, test kits must meet only the negative response criteria in paragraph (c)(1) of this section. The recognition of kits that meet only this criteria will last until EPA publicizes its recognition of the first test kits that meets both of the criteria in paragraph (c) of this section.

(4) After September 1, 2010, test kits must meet both of the criteria in paragraph (c) of this section.
_

But for now, Approved Lead Test Kits

I am with Y, don't test and assume lead.


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## DeanV

dubinpainting said:


> If you could let me know the answer to this one before June I would apreciate it.:thumbup:


This one is covered very clearly in the class and I believe in the rule. The porch built in 2000 would not fall under the rule. The rest of the home would. 

There is a clause somewhere about about areas of pre-78 homes that have had major renovations after 1978 and those renovated areas (assuming it is major renovation, so that the old paint is gone), do not fall under the rule.


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## BESMAN

For California, the EPA lead test kits are not approved....I'd say always assume lead or have a company come test the place..


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## CApainter

BESMAN said:


> For California, the EPA lead test kits are not approved....I'd say always assume lead or have a company come test the place..


Are the lead test kits like the Lead/Check swabs, not recognized by the EPA, or is it that Lead tests can only be performed by a certified Lead Tester, not a certified Lead Worker.

I've been using the swabs for years to make a field analysis, but had to have a lab perform further tests to determine actual lead percentage.


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## BESMAN

I was told that in Cali right now...the ones being sold are legal to sell but illegal for us to use. I believe that we would have to have a Lead tester come out and test the site or just assume there is lead and proceed accordingly. 

Everywhere else i believe only a certified renovator can use the EPA kits.


Cali seems to be even tighter about all the rules...and then San Diego is even tighter than the rest of the state.


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## parodi

TheRogueBristle said:


> Great questions. Anything ever come of this parodi?



I am in the process now of getting the questions to the proper person in the EPA. I was just kicked upstairs yesterday when the person who was my contact did not feel comfortable answering the questions so he booted me up to the Washington DC level. The deadline for the column is May 28th. The column appears two months after the deadline.


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## bikerboy

y.painting said:


> 3) Will we be getting free booklets for the HO to sign off on or do we have to purchase them? Do we have to leave the booklet with the HO or is it enough to have them merely sign off that they've read it/seen it?


The Sherwin Williams in Annapolis, MD had them on the counter Tuesday. They were free, but they did not have many, so you got a couple.


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## oldpaintdoc

Sherwin Williams in Kalamazoo, Michigan have them. 25 for $5.00.
Not a bad price.


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## y.painting

Our SWs had them free for a week before today, but will start selling bundles from now on.


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