# Question for you commercial painting contractors



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I just got an email to quote painting 2 floors of a commercial building. Each floor is approximately 30,000 sq feet. No idea if it is a repaint or NC. I assume a repaint. I'll be checking it out this week.

Would that scare any of you away? I have no clue how to proceed. Is it just a matter of measuring every room and hallway and putting in your rates & material costs? I use PEP so doing a quote isn't the issue. I know there are a lot of windows in those buildings but I'd probably still quote per usual wall sq footage.

How does payment go for something like this? For residential or small office jobs I request 1/3 deposit. Do these guys pay after completion or what? Not sure i can hold out for 60 or 90 days. I'll need a big crew and they won't wait to get paid...lol


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

If you need to hire a bunch of guys for a project like that what are you going to have for them to do when it is done? Don't be afraid to look at it and say no because of the scope of work but don't feel as if you have to give them a price. If you don't feel comfortable with it just pass and wait for something that fits you. You are probably not the only painter that got the invite to bid. It is very doubtful, like not, that you will get a deposit on a project like this. You will bill on the 25th of one month and get paid on the 25th of the next. If you can't carry the burden of this you should pass. Commercial work on this scale is something you don't just jump into without checking the depth of the water.


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## Holdenholden (Feb 6, 2018)

Be prepared for 30- 90 day wait to be paid. You might be able to ask for a draw like 30-40 percent to cover wages. A person needs capital or credit to take the leap into bigger projects than they are used to. 


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## akrause (May 18, 2010)

Things to consider: 

(1) As others have stated, it's unlikely you'l receive any payment for at least 60-90 days and it can go beyond that depending on the GC. The larger, the slower in my experience. You'll most likely also have to hold out a 10% retainage from each invoice to be billed at the end of the project. The general rule I use is: If I can't afford to bankroll the entire job start to finish and *then* wait 3-4 months for my money, I don't bid it.

(2) Do you have help with admin? Normally there is a *ton* of paperwork required: Material Submitals, Insurance docs, applications for payment, addendums, lien releases (most have to be notarized), warranty, not to mention the actual contract itself. Are you prepared to indemnify & hold harmless the GC, it's owners - etc from damages that may or may not have anything to do with your direct scope? Sounds crazy I know, but more and more these contracts are absolutely packed with language that strengthens the GC's ability to NOT pay you on time for a whole host of reasons. Also, more and more GC's are using web-based vendor compliance services and electronic payment portals, so there could be a whole slue of set up, registering and document uploads there. There can also be fees associated with those services. (we just spent $3,000.00 for one). The good news is your money usually comes through a little faster.

(3) Be prepared for things to not go as you planned. The drywall guy (if new construction)will be behind schedule and the GC will try to get YOU to make up for it. They'll schedule you to start before the walls are really ready so plan on walking the job the day before you put your men on it. Also, there will be tons of other trades in your way impacting your production rates and potentially damaging your finished product. It's just how it is. 

All that said, I'm NOT trying to discourage you from doing this but you have to be prepared. Painters get the most abuse out of any trade on the job. They'll want you to touch up & touch up & touch up & touch up and repaint things damaged by other trades or that were installed out of sequence. You *have* to be prepared to defend your profit and tell the GC "your not ready for us", ...or "That's a change order". 

Relationships are key. If this is someone you know and have worked for before, all the better. If this is a street bid for a new GC, you'll really need to manage the job.

Just like KMP said above, ...there's no shame at all in respectfully declining the bid and taking things a little slower. Get a few smaller scale commercial jobs under your belt first.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

akrause said:


> Things to consider:
> 
> (1) As others have stated, it's unlikely you'l receive any payment for at least 60-90 days and it can go beyond that depending on the GC. The larger, the slower in my experience. You'll most likely also have to hold out a 10% retainage from each invoice to be billed at the end of the project. The general rule I use is: If I can't afford to bankroll the entire job start to finish and *then* wait 3-4 months for my money, I don't bid it.
> 
> ...





BEST advice ever ... this should be a sticky for anyone wanting to enter commercial work :thumbsup:

.


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## deadend (Aug 1, 2013)

...agreed...the kind of gems you come to a forum like this in the first place for...


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Stickied. Hope it stuck! excellent advice for sure...

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## The NACE Guy (Aug 16, 2018)

There are multiple posts in this thread that provide solid, sound advice for the OP.

Please don't take this the way it's going to sound, but if you're asking those type of questions, you may not be ready to take on a 60,000 sq ft commercial painting project. There is no shame in that. 

I've seen dozens of new, small, promising painting companies fold because they attempted a project they weren't capable of doing, either manpower or capital wise. A job that size can spiral out of control very quickly.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

Definitely some solid advice in here, but I'm going to play the Devil's advocate a bit here, as I'm pretty much a mostly commercial only painter and give you some advice and insight that you might not already have.

First things first, before you decide on anything, the first thing you should be doing is calling your paint rep and asking him if he knows anything about the general contractor. Those guys are more prone to gossip than anyone, and if the GC is good to work for or known to burn people, they'll know. Plus, you'll want to go to them anyways with your spec book and get them to give you better pricing than you're getting. Once you go commercial, you won't believe the pricing you get. I'm not going to spout off numbers, but suffice it to say that 40 a gallon drops to under 10 in a hurry if you do enough volume. Plus, if you're going to be using a different manufacturer than what is specced out you need to get your paint supplier to write up an alternate proposal so it can be accepted.


Also, still dealing with your paint supplier, one good way to offset your financial worries is to see if they'll agree to joint checking with you for this job. What that means is that they won't ask you to pay them until you get paid. Essentially, you'll submit a bill and the GC will cut a check with both you and your supplier's name on it. You give the check to your rep and they take out what you owe for that period and cut you a check for the difference. This is nice because you don't have to float the paint bill each month. It also gives you leverage against the GC if they try to stiff you. They might not care about a phone call from you, but if PPG or Sherwin William's lawyers start calling, they'll write those checks.


Now, I don't want to sound like a braggart, but 60,000 sq ft is peanuts in commercial. I'm not saying that to make it sound like you'll breeze through and can't lose anything. You can. But that number sounds huge when you're used to doing houses. You immediately think you need some huge crew to handle it. That's not really the case. We usually have 2 maybe 4 guys on a job that size, and that's if it's not phased out nicely. Basically, you'll walk in, the GC will have the job broken into phases, and you'll do so much per phase and nothing else will be ready for you. This is doubly true if you can spray. I can usually do a full phase my self in 3-4 days if I'm spraying. Keep in mind that typically, you don't have to cut in ceilings or windows or trim. You don't usually have to protect the floor.


A well run phase will typically go something like this. You go in the first day and prime out all of the rooms they have ready for you. Then you give the finishers a day to go through their work and fix any blemishes. Next day you caulk and spray all the hollow metal door frames. Next day you wrap them up and start spraying finish coat which sometimes you can do in a day but sometimes two. When you don't have to cut in ceilings or trim or many windows and you run a sprayer and 18 inch roller, things get done fast. Don't get me wrong, you'll get the oddball phase which might have a big room or something, etc. But typically speaking you won't have to worry about a big crew. If it's something you're serious about, ask one of your guys if he's willing to hold on a bit for some of his cash but throw him a little more than usual as a thanks for holding out. But you should be able to float yourself and maybe one guy for a few weeks without worry. If not, then you definitely shouldnt be looking into commercial or maybe business at all lol.



And my advice is to do a walk through asap with the GC and see how they phase things out. Also ask about lifts etc, so you can just borrow theirs. They pay to have them on site and 99 percent of the time will let you just use theirs rather than renting or buying one. 

As long as you're well prepared and keep on top of your billing, you can really do a good job of turning a profit. Obviously, do your research, be somewhat cautious but don't be scared.


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## DunesPainting (Jul 22, 2016)

We're newbies in commercial, and have taken on a couple of commercial projects in the 50,000-200,000 sq ft range. The information from akrause and PaPainter724 on this thread is gold. This is exactly how it was for us in our short commercial experience to date.

A few things we did, and learned from our projects (some of this has been mentioned):

- Go to your bank and ask for a line of credit to help sustain you until you get paid (this can pay for hotel rooms if job is out of your area, buy equipment that breaks, pay employees, etc.). 

- Get familiar with AIA payment forms and paperwork

- As PaPainter724 said, ask your paint rep to work with you and give you a longer due date on payment. SW will work you to collect payment from a contractor if you run into issues (we haven't).

- You can do it with a small crew! 

- When the GC says that you can start a phase on a certain date, you can almost bet that the walls are not in painting condition so check the day before in person. You don't want your crew showing up and waiting for hours while another trade gets out of your way.

- If spraying dryfall, make sure it's drying before it hits the floor. You may want to go ahead and cover floors just to protect yourself.

- Be prepared for other trades to scuff up and damage your walls. Really big scuffs lol. 

- There is paperwork to be done. When submitting the pay application, make sure the percentage you're asking for is ok with the GC or he will deny it and you may have to wait another 30 days. We haven't had a problem with this, but just be aware. 

- Other trades will use your equipment (ladders, caulk, tape, extension cords, naps etc.) even if you designate a small area for your gear. Leave as little behind each day. It might seem like a couple of bucks, but it's your profit they're taking.

- Get along with other trades, be professional, work hard, and get paid.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Damn, I've grown up. 


Quick tips:

Fear is the enemy of success and you can move mountains with few people. 

It's just paint on a surface. Always put your money back into the company or leave it to fund more jobs. Then all your worry about delayed payment isn't a thing.


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## LynnDingler (Aug 31, 2018)

Have you done with the work?


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