# Farrow & Ball VS Fine Paints of Europe Coverage



## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Anyone know which offers better return on sq ft coverage per gallon for say a Mid-Tone Gray in a Satin? (Real world experience instead of manufacturing statments).

I love the tinting system for both & of course the quality of their lines are fantastic which makes the prices top shelf for a job, so I’m hoping someone can tell me if one has higher return than the other...


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Never used any f&b but curious if anyone has had a chance to try the BM century line?
https://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/experience-century

Supposed to compete with these boutique type paints


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Having used a lot of both , neither one "covers" very well


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

PPD said:


> Anyone know which offers better return on sq ft coverage per gallon for say a Mid-Tone Gray in a Satin? (Real world experience instead of manufacturing statments).
> 
> I love the tinting system for both & of course the quality of their lines are fantastic which makes the prices top shelf for a job, so I’m hoping someone can tell me if one has higher return than the other...


I can’t speak to FPOE,as I’ve only done a couple of doors with that, but F&B usually exceeds the stated coverage in my limited experience. 

I just finished up this job in Georgetown, around 1200+sq. ft. It was hard to calculate the footage,what with all the doors, etc. We used 3 ‘gallons’p primer and five’gallons’ wall paint. Two coats and barely needed the fifth one.To be honest, I wasn’t going to use the primer at first since we had to put Gardz on the walls(16 days of wallpaper removal), but the store rep spec’d it on the client’s consultation summary, so I felt I was stuck. Anyway, this paint rolled out flawlessly and covered as good as any Ben Moore product I’ve used.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)




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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I don’t why these keep coming out sideways, but hopefully you get the idea of the space. Sorry


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

We used Elephant Breath, a mid tone grey












And no, the client didn’t want to pay more to fix the bad seams revealed once the wallpaper came down.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Coverage?*



PPD said:


> Anyone know which offers better return on sq ft coverage per gallon for say a Mid-Tone Gray in a Satin? (Real world experience instead of manufacturing statments).
> 
> I love the tinting system for both & of course the quality of their lines are fantastic which makes the prices top shelf for a job, so I’m hoping someone can tell me if one has higher return than the other...


What is the surface you are painting over? I once did a job where I was changing the color of some eggshell paint. I calculated almost 700 sq ft of walls to paint 2 coats, making it 1400 sq ft. I bought 3 gallons and only used the better part of 2. I was not trying to save on paint as I rolled. This gave me over 700 sq ft per gallon.

I have calculated getting almost 600 sq ft per gallon over ceilings and walls properly rolled with Gardz. I don't use Gardz on every application, but if I was spending the bucks you are on either paint, I probably would use Gardz or something similar both to guarantee very good coverage and to give a very even paint job.

We don't get much discussion here about either Farrow & Ball or FPE, at least that I have seen. What drawbacks are you seeing with paints from here in the USA?

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

I'm not sure why Farrow & Ball, and FPE colors are considered to be impossible to duplicate with any other paint? Most HO and decorina's know as much about color as my 5-year-old granddaughter!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The Farrow & Ball and FPE paints use a much cleaner colorant system then most paint companies in North America do, which is why most paints cannot be tinted to a few of their colors. Also, the major manufacturer of paints in North America off shades all of their bases gray, which again makes it impossible to match some of their colors. I've never had an instance where i couldn't match any manufacturers (including F&B and FPOE) using either the BM Gennex colorants or the California Trillion colorants. Also the BM and Cali tint bases are the most clean white tint bases commonly available in North America, which means that the bright, clean pastel colors can easily be matched in them.

But like most marketing, they found an advantage they had over the major paint manufacturers and ran with it. It is not a hard fact, but it is true when trying to match some of their colors in 75-80% of the paint on the market. (if you get the feeling that i am saying that it is true that you can't match some of their colors in box store/SW paints, you would be correct)


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> We used Elephant Breath, a mid tone grey
> 
> 
> View attachment 99970
> ...


Unbelievable isn't it! Like putting $40 Walmart tires on a restored Porsche. I just don't get some people. Pay $150 a gallon for paint, pay Fauxlynn her top dollar fee, and you can't afford to get those seams fixed. I hope they see that seam every time they walk up those stairs and it drives them up a wall.

Then maybe they'll have Fauxlynn come back and fix it. At double her normal fee of course.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I don’t believe FB has a tint system as all their colors are ready mixed and shaded and ground to a color with earth pigments. Hide a coverage depend on the pigment used to shade and how much TiO2 can be used in conjunction with the color. FPE are ground and shaded in their ready mixed but have both a water based and oil based tint system with more colors to give better matches and color range. Hide and spread rate are variable and two separate things.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> I don’t believe FB has a tint system as all their colors are ready mixed and shaded and ground to a color with earth pigments. Hide a coverage depend on the pigment used to shade and how much TiO2 can be used in conjunction with the color. FPE are ground and shaded in their ready mixed but have both a water based and oil based tint system with more colors to give better matches and color range. Hide and spread rate are variable and two separate things.


so you're saying FB uses mud to make colors? :vs_OMG:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

You know all those ancient spacemen painted on those cave walls in Africa? Those were earth pigments too! Must be good stuff.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Brushman4 said:


> I'm not sure why Farrow & Ball, and FPE colors are considered to be impossible to duplicate with any other paint? Most HO and decorina's know as much about color as my 5-year-old granddaughter!


I don’t think the main complaint is color matching being impossible (it very much is). Its more to do w/ the depth & architectural hand vs other paint manufacturers (depending on model used of course). I remember seeing a blog post once about the difference after painting with BM she then applying the same color/sheen level in the original F&B color in spots throughout the room. The color was spot on with BM but the difference in depth & shade from side views was drastic. 

FB, FPOE, + Donald Kaufman paints have less fillers, higher ratio of solids (most), and the binders/ tints used are of a higher pure quality than our standard liquid colorants that have to be suspended. 

I’m not sure about F&B...but FPOE tinting methods are so uniform I can continue from a new can without any shade difference whatsoever. F&B required primer drived me MAD...the cure time without their branded primer is freaking ridiculous and frustrates me to no end so I tend to avoid them unless the client specifies it.

Now, is that to say the $100+ per gallon cost is worth the result? I don’t know, its a fine line & requires a lot of knowledge to figure out what the tipping point btwn money=quality or money=brillant marketing.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Nace makes a great point about hide and coverage being two different things. 

As far as being worth the money, if my client thinks so, write me a check.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Faux, your very lucky you could get away with the primer and 2 finish coats. In my experience it always takes 3:vs_whistle:


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

You’re right. The primer was very close to the color I was using, in this case. I guess the only good thing is the primer cost less.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

fauxlynn said:


> PPD said:
> 
> 
> > I can’t speak to FPOE,as I’ve only done a couple of doors with that, but F&B usually exceeds the stated coverage in my limited experience.
> ...


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

PACman said:


> You know all those ancient spacemen painted on those cave walls in Africa? Those were earth pigments too! Must be good stuff.


Haha true dat! Earth pigments are actually the bomb!!! Use them to tint glaze for fine finishes & white base lime-plaster


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PPD said:


> Haha true dat! Earth pigments are actually the bomb!!! Use them to tint glaze for fine finishes & white base lime-plaster


Try www.mixol.com. Very unique high quality tints and powdered pigments.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PPD said:


> I don’t think the main complaint is color matching being impossible (it very much is). Its more to do w/ the depth & architectural hand vs other paint manufacturers (depending on model used of course). I remember seeing a blog post once about the difference after painting with BM she then applying the same color/sheen level in the original F&B color in spots throughout the room. The color was spot on with BM but the difference in depth & shade from side views was drastic.
> 
> FB, FPOE, + Donald Kaufman paints have less fillers, higher ratio of solids (most), and the binders/ tints used are of a higher pure quality than our standard liquid colorants that have to be suspended.
> 
> ...


uh, Donald Kaufman paints are tinted the same way any other typical paint is tinted. In a paint store. Just like all others. Then a Donald Kaufman label is stuck on it and it gets retailed for $150 a gallon. But if that is what your customers want to pay for go for it. Don't fight it just cash the checks.

(I know exactly where the Donald Kaufman paints are tinted AND i know exactly what product it is that gets re-labelled. But i've probably already said enough to piss them off so.....)


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Nace makes a great point about hide and coverage being two different things.
> 
> As far as being worth the money, if my client thinks so, write me a check.


CASH THAT CHECK! That's what it's all about! Make the customer happy.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PPD said:


> Haha true dat! Earth pigments are actually the bomb!!! Use them to tint glaze for fine finishes & white base lime-plaster


That's how you get the look! With you being in San Diego i have to ask, Has anyone ever asked you to put chicken blood in the paint before you paint their walls?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Having worked in a paint plant and having mixed and tinted paint for 30+ years, i have to say i am highly, and i do mean HIGHLY skeptical of the claims made by the ultra premium paint lines regarding pretty much anything they say about their color and pigment exclusivity. Even the things such as "depth" and "feel" and all the other artsy fartsy descriptions they use. The issue here is that almost EVERY paint retailer is locked in on whatever colorant/pigment system their brand of paint uses. Nothing that FPoE or F&B uses to color or tint their paints is exclusive to them. Everything can be 100% duplicated. It's just a question of whether it is profitable whether someone wants to go through the trouble to source the raw materials. I have done it before for some OEM manufacturers for large production runs. There is NO finish or color that cannot be replicated if someone has the time, money, effort, and PROFITABILITY to do it. Exclusivity is basically a way to market their products, nothing more. I can source almost any natural earth pigment there is and never leave Ohio to do it. In fact I know of caverns where you can scrape oxide pigments right off the wall if you so desire. Native americans were doing it a thousand years ago.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Since OP talks about coloring systems, PAC, I’ll add- Yes,it can all be matched. Maybe not 100%, but close enough.

In twenty years of experience working with mixing color, there have been times I matched something in ten minutes and also after several hours. We used to match until we could no longer discern between the two AT ALL. The threshold for level of acceptance on the part of the client is a lot lower I have come to learn. 

If you have to work that hard to tweak a color, you’re probably overthinking it, in other words.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Since OP talks about coloring systems, PAC, I’ll add- Yes,it can all be matched. Maybe not 100%, but close enough.
> 
> In twenty years of experience working with mixing color, there have been times I matched something in ten minutes and also after several hours. We used to match until we could no longer discern between the two AT ALL. The threshold for level of acceptance on the part of the client is a lot lower I have come to learn.
> 
> If you have to work that hard to tweak a color, you’re probably overthinking it, in other words.


again, you are correct. But it depends on how much a paint supplier wants to duplicate something, which in turn depends usually on how much money they can make off of it. Most won't go through the effort because they are selling all they need to sell or don't think it is worth it.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

PACman said:


> That's how you get the look! With you being in San Diego i have to ask, Has anyone ever asked you to put chicken blood in the paint before you paint their walls?


Hahah No! I’m not sure how I’d respond to that request....but now I’m SUPER curious as to why anyone would request such a thing? Do tell!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PPD said:


> Hahah No! I’m not sure how I’d respond to that request....but now I’m SUPER curious as to why anyone would request such a thing? Do tell!


When i was working with SW in San Marcos back in 1988 i had a woman pull in driving a convertible Jaguar come in and ask me if i could put fresh chicken blood in her paint for her. She said it was a technique she saw in "the south of France" that they used to make the wall look antique. I told her i would look in to it and call her back. So i called the local poultry farm and asked them if they would sell the woman a gallon of fresh blood if i sold her a gallon can. They did, she got her blood, and as far as i know her painter mixed it in for her.\

That's all i know about it and all i want to know about it.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PACman said:


> When i was working with SW in San Marcos back in 1988 i had a woman pull in driving a convertible Jaguar come in and ask me if i could put fresh chicken blood in her paint for her. She said it was a technique she saw in "the south of France" that they used to make the wall look antique. I told her i would look in to it and call her back. So i called the local poultry farm and asked them if they would sell the woman a gallon of fresh blood if i sold her a gallon can. They did, she got her blood, and as far as i know her painter mixed it in for her.\
> 
> That's all i know about it and all i want to know about it.


Maybe she was doing a Santerian sacrifice? "Eating the sacrificed animal is considered a sharing with the Orisha, who only consumes the animal's blood, while the worshippers eat the meat. Sacrificial animals include chickens (the most common), pigeons, doves, ducks, guinea pigs, goats, sheep, and turtles.Sep 15, 2009".


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> Maybe she was doing a Santerian sacrifice? "Eating the sacrificed animal is considered a sharing with the Orisha, who only consumes the animal's blood, while the worshippers eat the meat. Sacrificial animals include chickens (the most common), pigeons, doves, ducks, guinea pigs, goats, sheep, and turtles.Sep 15, 2009".


uh, you seem to know that right off the top of your head pretty well don't you?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PAC, I guess you can't see that I'm quoting a paragraph from a google search on Santeria! Maybe you've never heard of them, but I've seen numerous news shows about them and their sacrifices.

Or maybe don't ever turn off your lights, as they may be coming to your house or your neighbors to suck that chicken blood, They ain't afraid of no Amish!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> PAC, I guess you can't see that I'm quoting a paragraph from a google search on Santeria! Maybe you've never heard of them, but I've seen numerous news shows about them and their sacrifices.
> 
> Or maybe don't ever turn off your lights, as they may be coming to your house or your neighbors to suck that chicken blood, They ain't afraid of no Amish!


They should be! I've seen how their 14 year old daughter handles a muzzle loader! She's the one who kills dinner every day! BOOM!


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> uh, Donald Kaufman paints are tinted the same way any other typical paint is tinted. In a paint store. Just like all others. Then a Donald Kaufman label is stuck on it and it gets retailed for $150 a gallon. But if that is what your customers want to pay for go for it. Don't fight it just cash the checks.
> 
> (I know exactly where the Donald Kaufman paints are tinted AND i know exactly what product it is that gets re-labelled. But i've probably already said enough to piss them off so.....)


DK Uses a cocktail of colorants from different manufacturers to achieve their color palette which they claim severely limits competitors from matching his colors. Supposedly a customer picks a DK color and a pint can of the cocktail is ordered by the retailer and mixed with a high end gallon in whatever finish. This is how we did it when I worked in retail. I never met a color matching savant with years of experience that couldn’t match any DK or FB color. Sometimes the perception of the homeowner, architect, or designers ego prevents approval of a color because it didn’t come directly from DK or FB itself. I’m in an area where $120-$150 a gallon by homeowners and decorators is a badge of honor, to me it’s a curse. Most contractors mark it up from there.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> DK Uses a cocktail of colorants from different manufacturers to achieve their color palette which they claim severely limits competitors from matching his colors. Supposedly a customer picks a DK color and a pint can of the cocktail is ordered by the retailer and mixed with a high end gallon in whatever finish. This is how we did it when I worked in retail. I never met a color matching savant with years of experience that couldn’t match any DK or FB color. Sometimes the perception of the homeowner, architect, or designers ego prevents approval of a color because it didn’t come directly from DK or FB itself. I’m in an area where $120-$150 a gallon by homeowners and decorators is a badge of honor, to me it’s a curse. Most contractors mark it up from there.


I have it on pretty good authority that the paint is actually.....gak!


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

NACE said:


> Try www.mixol.com. Very unique high quality tints and powdered pigments.




Didn’t see this till now but thank you- gunna order some today! I’ve only used earth pigments.com in the past cuz I was scared of purity issues with other unknowns so appreciate the new source


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

PACman said:


> When i was working with SW in San Marcos back in 1988 i had a woman pull in driving a convertible Jaguar come in and ask me if i could put fresh chicken blood in her paint for her. She said it was a technique she saw in "the south of France" that they used to make the wall look antique. I told her i would look in to it and call her back. So i called the local poultry farm and asked them if they would sell the woman a gallon of fresh blood if i sold her a gallon can. They did, she got her blood, and as far as i know her painter mixed it in for her.\
> 
> 
> 
> That's all i know about it and all i want to know about it.




Im not gunna lie...after reading this I went down a rabbit hole..... Google failed of course so I pulled every 19th century + folio I could for european finishing to see if this is really a thing & couldn’t find anything mentioning blood. 

I think someone was messin with her on her vacay in the south of france & she was gullible enough to believe it was true hahahah. 

*Side Note: If you could please come back to the san marcos SW I would greatly appreciate it cuz I can’t even get them to give me the right order or color match within an acceptable range...little own have someone willing to call around & find a gallon of chicken blood for me! 

The other locations are great the san marcos spot is closest so its my most frequent. Most of the staff are just outta high school & interacting with them is like pulling teeth- they always talk & look like they’d rather be anywhere but there. :-/


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

NACE said:


> DK Uses a cocktail of colorants from different manufacturers to achieve their color palette which they claim severely limits competitors from matching his colors. Supposedly a customer picks a DK color and a pint can of the cocktail is ordered by the retailer and mixed with a high end gallon in whatever finish. This is how we did it when I worked in retail. I never met a color matching savant with years of experience that couldn’t match any DK or FB color. Sometimes the perception of the homeowner, architect, or designers ego prevents approval of a color because it didn’t come directly from DK or FB itself. I’m in an area where $120-$150 a gallon by homeowners and decorators is a badge of honor, to me it’s a curse. Most contractors mark it up from there.


I've worked on a few high-end jobs where the sample drawdowns had to be sent to England to be approved by their decorator Colfax and Fowler before any work could commence. http://www.sibylcolefax.com/decorators/


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Brushman4 said:


> I've worked on a few high-end jobs where the sample drawdowns had to be sent to England to be approved by their decorator Colfax and Fowler before any work could commence. http://www.sibylcolefax.com/decorators/




Thanx for sharing that link! I love looking into the designers from international firms...there goes my night !


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PPD said:


> Thanx for sharing that link! I love looking into the designers from international firms...there goes my night !


Your welcome, these jobs were for clients that were either billionaires or close to that. As a matter of fact, one of these clients the lady of the houses sister was an ASID decorator who hired Colfax and Fowler to work with her on the design of their newly built $ 20 million-plus home on the North Shore. The home was over 25,000 square feet.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I've had to submit quite a few product sample spray outs and the like to several Yacht interior decorators when i was in San Diego. Apparently they were building the yachts in Socal. I've also had to send samples of finished materials to Llyoyd's of London so they could do their own flame spread testing. Apparently SW's flame spread info wasn't good enough for them! They wouldn't insure the yacht's until they tested it themselves.


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