# Isocyanates



## CApainter

I just discovered today that the Devoe Epoxy 235 contains Iscocyanates. I always thought that Isocyanates were unique to industrial, and automotive polyurethanes. Apparently they're not, and I suspect I was over exposed to Isocyanates on a recent job where I was spraying the 235 Epoxy using only an APR (Air purifying respirator) before I switched to an MSA supplied air respirator. The tightness I experienced in my chest could very well have been one of the many adverse symptoms from over exposure to Isocyanate, as described in the MSDS. It lasted for a couple of days, so now I'll have to visit a doctor for a pulmonary test to make certain I didn't cause any long term damage. 

The reason why I'm posting this is that many times those of us in the industrial side of the painting trade like to promote coatings that no doubt out perform your typical residential/commercial paints, regardless of their hazards. Sometimes it's a little chest beating, but most of the time it's because we develop an understanding of the chemistry of conversion coatings through training and experience, and like to share what we learn with others. However, our sights should be on the bigger picture, and that is our health. 

So despite what we industrial painters offer in the way of coatings (that frankly should stay in industrial settings like refineries, waste treatment plants or ship yards) always look for the product that even though it may not perform as well as industrial, will perhaps be much safer for the applicator, the public, and the environment.


----------



## straight_lines

Always stay safe guys. I still sometimes get what can only be described as what feels like wind blowing when there isn't any. I didn't know any better when I was younger and the contractor I worked for had little or no concern for our safety.


----------



## DeanV

In a training video for a manufacturer of 2k aliphatic urethanes for tubs, they just show applicators wearing a full face respirator with the carbon filters, so that is what I did. Is that insufficient since the coatings contain isocyanate?


----------



## vermontpainter

CA

Thanks for the reminder. Painting is a big part of our lives, but not worth dying for.


----------



## robladd

DeanV said:


> In a training video for a manufacturer of 2k aliphatic urethanes for tubs, they just show applicators wearing a full face respirator with the carbon filters, so that is what I did. Is that insufficient since the coatings contain isocyanate?


No! You must have a particulate (pre) filter
also. An organic cartridge will not protect you a 100%. You may have went over on your PEL for PPM. Dean please read understand and follow all msds and PDF for PPE.

Not trying to be the safety monitor. Just trying to make you aware. Rob


----------



## DeanV

I guess I thought I was following this from the MSDS

============================= SECTION VIII - CONTROL MEASURES ==================================
RESPIRATORY PROTECTION
Proper selection of respiratory protection depends upon many factors including duration/level of exposure and conditions of use. In general, exposure to organic chemicals, such as those contained in this product, may not require the use of respiratory protection if used in well ventilated areas. In restricted ventilation areas, a NIOSH approved chemical cartridge respirator may be required. Under certain conditions, such as spraying, a mechanical prefilter may also be required. In confined areas use a NIOSH/OSHA approved air supplied respirator. If the exposure limits listed in Section II are exceeded, use a properly fitted NIOSH/OSHA approved respirator with an appropriate protection factor. Refer to OSHA 29 CFR 1910.134 "Respiratory Protection" and "Respiratory Protection: A Manual and Guideline", American Industrial Hygiene Association.
Wear a NIOSH/MSHA approved dust mask or respirator if airborne concentrations are not maintained below the Exposure Limits.
VENTILATION
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
UR HI-GLOSS GLAZE CHINA WHITE
DATE PRINTED: 8/1/2011
Page: 4
General mechanical ventilation or local exhaust should be suitable to keep vapor concentrations below TLV. Ventilation
equipment must be explosion proof.
Provide general dilution and local exhaust ventilation in sufficient volume and pattern to keep concentrations of
hazardous ingredients (listed in Section II) below the lowest exposure limit stated. Remove decomposition products that
are generated when welding, cutting or brazing objects coated with this product. Refer to "Industrial Ventilation--A
Manual of Recommended Practice", ACGIH.

I did have a ventilation fan running, excessive overspray in the air was not apparent. 

And I wore one of this












I also wore glove, long pants, long sleeves, so almost no exposed skin.

I guess if it takes more than that, tubs cannot be done competitively. At least, not as an additional service.

And, of what I am doing is not enough, I do want to know. I strive to choose low VOC stuff whenever possible and keep my employees from anything that could be considered higher risk. We have basically ditched lacquer for these reasons.


----------



## robladd

Dean that respirator has pre filters, you had me concerned there for a moment.

What many painters take for granted is a bathroom is not a confined space.

Any confined space needs good positive ventilation. 

Tubs require a good bit of material which in turn presents a considerable amount of VOC's

It's not hard to go over the PEL with little ventilation. If you have to don air supply to do a tub is it really worth it?


----------



## DeanV

I figured with a ventilation fan, it would be a restricted space. No vent fan at all, then I could see supplied air.

That is where I struggle with some of this stuff. I want to err on the side of safety, but it hard to know for sure sometimes. Without have an electronic air monitor, it seems like a best guess is all that is available if you are not part of a large, industrial shop.


----------



## robladd

I reckon I'm lucky that way, or not?


----------



## ibsocal

Bar Rust is not that bad, for me. but oil based alkyd enamels allways kick my ass and that is when I would consider using an air fed.some people are more sensitive to some types of chemicals then others,epoxies and polyurethanes have minimal effect on me but i still protect myself most of the time.
Read MSDS and product instructions prior to useing any coatings.

plan accordingly depending on your situation/job and sensitivity to chemicals use ventillation and ppe safety gear.I have been using these types of coatings since the late Super 70s so dont do what i do as that only works for me.

for bathtubs i rarely use ventillation ,i use only if unit is occupied and has no windows or cieling fan.and i never use air feds or full face only half mask with OV filters and no pre filters. the coatings used for a tub is usually less than 32 oz.
you can get an ISO free tub coating if you like as well.


----------



## DeanV

Glad to see you here ibsocal. Your posts from a while back sent me to topkote for their started kit, btw.


----------



## daArch

I think many here know my opinions about respirators - supplied air is the most effective. I'd like to say 100% protection, but NOTHING is 100%.

I do not know Isocyanates, but there are enough syllables, prefixes, and suffixes that I recognize to make me think the fumes will make their way through any kind of filtered mask. 

particulates can be filtered, gases not so much.


----------



## ibsocal

Respirators are a serious must have for these types of chemicals.and i should really take it more seriously but then again(hope i die before i get old) i really never expected to be here still breathing @ age 50.............

Topkote is good stuff my buddy George will get you going in the right direction for sure,I find their products to be good. i really like their crosslink,but i also like midwest chemicals hsld 5000 1:1 mix aliphatic polyurethane and their aerospace epoxy primers easy to mix easy to use as well.


----------



## wills fresh coat

also keep in mind that our skin is like a sponge, keep it covered as much as possible to prevent it absorbing any voc's


----------



## CApainter

DeanV,

The APR you showed is basically the same one I use most of the time (3M 6500 series.) As long as you maintain a good seal by first doing a positive/negative fit test, you'll be fine. However, ventilation is still required because the cartridges are only good down to 19.5% 02 (oxygen). Also, check the exposure limits on the material you use. Basically, you want to get in and out of the spray area, and do not re enter without a respirator until the coating has been allowed to cure for a while. 

Here's some OSHA info on iso's. When you reach the following link, scroll to Standard Interpretations, then click on selection of air purifying respirators. There you will find a section "b" in small print in the middle of the page that'll describe how negative pressure respirators (APR) may not provide as good of protection as positve pressure (Air Supplied)

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/isocyanates/index.html


----------



## daArch

CA,

as you talk about a "good seal" I am reminded that those of us with facial hair CAN NOT make a perfect seal with a negative pressure mask.

Yes my beard comes off in the spring, but the lip caterpillar has resided there for about 40 years. One needs smooth skin for a seal to be effective. (w/ negative pressure - positive pressure, not so much)


----------



## ibsocal

facial hair and prescription glasses can not be used with these types of respirators for protection as they can and do break the seal.
in that case you need a helmet type air fed.


----------



## CApainter

daArch said:


> CA,
> 
> as you talk about a "good seal" I am reminded that those of us with facial hair CAN NOT make a perfect seal with a negative pressure mask.
> 
> Yes my beard comes off in the spring, but the lip caterpillar has resided there for about 40 years. One needs smooth skin for a seal to be effective. (w/ negative pressure - positive pressure, not so much)


Great point.

One of the most common reasons for a poor seal in a respirator is facial hair. As long as a mustache or goatee can fit within the seal you're OK, but this is rarely possible. It's funny you mention this because I had grown a goatee recently, and had used the APR knowing I probably wouldn't have as good of a seal as I would of if I was clean shaven. Vanity breeds stupidity. Needless to say, I shaved after the exposure, and continued the project with a good seal (even though I switched to supplied air)

My exposure was completely my fault. The agency I work for not only provides all the necassary PPE, but also mandates a qualitative and quantitative fit test for all employees who wear respirators.

Guess I'll have to live with a bald head and face.


----------



## ibsocal




----------



## CApainter

Thanks for the video ibsocal. I can't view it right now because Youtube is blocked on my work computer, but I'll check it out when I get home.


----------



## daArch

ibsocal said:


> Fresh air Respirator - YouTube


EXCELLENT vid. 

I like the line, "If you are a professional painter and you end up doing painting every single day, this would be your best investment"

AND he mentioned Isocyanates and waterbornes.

(can you tell I'm partial to supplied air  )

But I tell you, my 1/4 face mask and hose sure is a dinosaur compare to what he has. Mine is a "poratable" two user (added a third) and the carbon filter is on the pump, not attached to the belt. But my intake filter (four hoses attached to each other) could be 200 feet from the pump and the hose from pump to mask were fifty, so we were sucking in air that originated 250 feet away from where we were working.


----------



## kdpaint

If spraying was a larger part of my business, I would check out that type of set up shown in the video. Wearing a respirator day in day out blows, and I've never been too sure of how well they actually work.


----------



## daArch

kdpaint said:


> If spraying was a larger part of my business, I would check out that type of set up shown in the video. Wearing a respirator day in day out blows, and I've never been too sure of how well they actually work.


I got mine to protect from lead, I didn't spray. As I developed an intolerance for the solvents, I was needing it to roll out surfaces with solvent based coatings.


----------



## 1963 Sovereign

I bought a fresh air respirator about 9 years back, LOVE IT ! cool dry fresh air from a small pump on a 75 foot hose ..was around 400 bucks or so .....


----------



## ProFinish NOLA

My step-father owned a sandblasting and industrial painting company , I started spraying ind. coatings like urethanes , carbo mastics , zincs , coal tars , plasites , and numerous 3 part systems when I was 15 to 22. I left the industrial world and hoped that I had seen my last days of such bad for your health coatings . About 14 years later I applied for a job at a hurricane shutter factory where they were spraying aluminum shutters with a Sherwin Williams automotive line called " Genisis " , even with supplied air and spraying in a down draft booth after 3 months I could not take the iso's anymore. My eyes and face were so irratated from that **** even with a full face respirator ,I quite the job , the owner begged me to stay and offered me 5 more dollars an hour , but I could not take ISO'S ! I told myself from that point on , never again will I **** with that ****. Never in all my years of messing with industrial coatings have I had something irratate me like that , I had m.e.k. In my eyes on a few occasions and would get through it , but this stuffs fumes were worse that getting straight m.e.k. , go figure , not good !


----------

