# BOMBSHELL. You heard it here first. 40% paint price increase by December



## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

HOT OFF THE PRESSES. There was a 8.5% increase last October, then in February another 8.5% increase will hit. Then every quarter a 10% increase.

So by December Sherwin Williams paint will be 40% more than it is right now.

Their Duration is list price $53.00/gal and by the end of the year it will be $87.00.

Welcome to 2012! Kiss your favorite corporation day is approaching!


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

There will be a lot more than just paint going up this year. Watch Gold and Oil. I really do not expect 2012 to get any better, but moreso a lot worse. That's why I made a comment in another post in regards to doing 2011 over again rather than going into 2012...


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

nEighter said:


> HOT OFF THE PRESSES. There was a 8.5% increase last October, then in February another 8.5% increase will hit. Then every quarter a 10% increase.
> 
> So by December Sherwin Williams paint will be 40% more than it is right now.
> 
> ...


Source?


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Sherwin Williams manager. I forgot about 2 gallons I needed to pay for before the holidays, and called up to pay. Complained I am getting 39.99/gal price for superpaint and he laughed and said "you haven't seen nothing yet"..


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> There will be a lot more than just paint going up this year. Watch Gold and Oil. I really do not expect 2012 to get any better, but moreso a lot worse. That's why I made a comment in another post in regards to doing 2011 over again rather than going into 2012...


Drywall is going up 35% also.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh and heard this from a Sherwin Williams store manager aboat 40min ago.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

repeat pete.. :icon_redface:


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

What about Behr ? Please tell me the best paint ever is not going up in price.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh Behr!!! NEVER THOUGHT OF THEM!!!


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

it will be cheaper to paper


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

material cost is going to be through the roof this year.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I sure hope ncaputo see's this thread 

Pat


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Rising material cost is the greatest gift to business owners. I'm not being sarcastic, it is reality. If a person runs their business like a business, they mark up materials by a percentage. As that base cost goes up, so does your gross dollars. The competition, including DIY'ers ALL have to pay more. Since there is no real cash flow cost to cover materials (since colors are custom, not stocked and customer pays upfront for them) price increases mean more money in your pocket. Now for those that stock pallets of new construction grade paint, this is probably not good news because more dollars are tied in inventory.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

sure we all pass the cost, but this is going to make every job more expensive.. which in turn cuts into people's pockets more. You better have your game hat on this year is all I can say.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

It all gets passed on to the HO. As long as everyone gets the price increase and it is a level playing field then it is what it is.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

Box stores will eat the cost to eat sw lunch watch. Contractor foot traffic will benefit box stores and home owners will run when they see these type prices. Be smart and find a competitive product to sell at a lower cost and outbid. Pharos only rule for so long.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

In Demand said:


> It all gets passed on to the HO. As long as everyone gets the price increase and it is a level playing field then it is what it is.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite



It's not a level playing field when the economy is still collapsing.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

It might effect low end markets , less people can afford to paint. High end markets won't be as bad because they have the money. Maybe BM isn't planning such a drastic price increase, and we can all slap that on.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Whats the big deal? 

Just purchase your paint only when they have their twice weekly 40% off sales....


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

nEighter said:


> HOT OFF THE PRESSES. There was a 8.5% increase last October, then in February another 8.5% increase will hit. Then every quarter a 10% increase.
> 
> So by December Sherwin Williams paint will be 40% more than it is right now.
> 
> ...


 The news just gets better and better! Although I agree with Ken regarding the mark up and how in theory, a material increase should be more $ in the contractors pocket as well, but I don't think overall, it will benefit business. We'll see......


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Can the mods let dan in this here thread. It needs a glimmer of hope.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

This will hurt many, just as RRP did. Its not a level playing field. lowballers will just use cheap materials and promise the same results to the customer if they were to use SW. 

A 40% increase is way out there. Sounds almost like a death sentence for Sw unless every other brand out there has the same increase.

Pat


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

optimal said:


> Box stores will eat the cost to eat sw lunch watch. Contractor foot traffic will benefit box stores and home owners will run when they see these type prices. Be smart and find a competitive product to sell at a lower cost and outbid. Pharos only rule for so long.


They follow suit though. Look at BIN. It went to $40.00/gal EVERYWHERE.. I can get it from glidden for around $33.00/gal but not sure how much longer


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I also get Ken's point, but in reality, material costs go up, cost of living goes up, wages should also go up, but do you really see those costs getting absorbed in the current economy? In real life, it seems like things like these just further tip the scales towards companies that use subs illegally. It also drives the market towards cheaper quality paints in some cases.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> This will hurt many, just as RRP did. Its not a level playing field. lowballers will just use cheap materials and promise the same results to the customer if they were to use SW.
> 
> A 40% increase is way out there. Sounds almost like a death sentence for Sw unless every other brand out there has the same increase.
> 
> Pat


What was funny was I said "so they want their duration to be the same price as Aura huh?" and he said it already pretty much is, and it will be $87.00 by december! 

:no:

oh well what you going to do?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

nEighter said:


> What was funny was I said "so they want their duration to be the same price as Aura huh?" and he said it already pretty much is, and it will be $87.00 by december!
> 
> :no:
> 
> oh well what you going to do?


I would use another brand. 

Pat


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

there is a limit to what people will pay. Sure, any business owner with half a brain knows that the costs need to be passed on, and some will mark it up by a percentage while others will just mark up just their cost (since it doesn't actually cost them more time), but by whatever method ones runs their business, the bottom line will still be reacted to by the HO. The average HO really don't give two plugged nickels about your costs, they look at the bottom line. 

As the separation between the classes widens, our market diminishes. There are only so many wealthy people out there that aren't affected by a $1000 difference. But with the middle class shrinking, there will be a lot more HO's with time on their hands and not enough disposable cash to hire professional painters/paperhangers. Many more of us will be tapping into the same market. And you can only spread the gravy so thin. 

As those of us with spouses out in the corporate work force know, pay raises are nowhere reflecting the rise in inflation or the costs of living. And with gov't cut backs, local taxes are rising at a higher rate - at least where I live. It is costing more for the average America to live and many hard working blue collars are not getting the necessary raises. And it seems that is when they look more closely at the costs of those home improvements and decide what they can do by themselves. Houses will still be painted and the paint companies will still sell their raised pricing, but I am afraid there will be an increase in sales to the HO's and the lowballers.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

yeah. He said it was due to the Titanium Dioxide and that the people who control it are like Opec and they are doing the same thing.. they are squeezing the availability of it... which drives up price.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> Whats the big deal?
> 
> Just purchase your paint only when they have their twice weekly 40% off sales....


soon to be 50% off with that kind of prices


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

daArch said:


> there is a limit to what people will pay. Sure, any business owner with half a brain knows that the costs need to be passed on, and some will mark it up by a percentage while others will just mark up just their cost (since it doesn't actually cost them more time), but by whatever method ones runs their business, the bottom line will still be reacted to by the HO. The average HO really don't give two plugged nickels about your costs, they look at the bottom line.
> 
> As the separation between the classes widens, our market diminishes. There are only so many wealthy people out there that aren't affected by a $1000 difference. But with the middle class shrinking, there will be a lot more HO's with time on their hands and not enough disposable cash to hire professional painters/paperhangers. Many more of us will be tapping into the same market. And you can only spread the gravy so thin.
> 
> As those of us with spouses out in the corporate work force know, pay raises are nowhere reflecting the rise in inflation or the costs of living. And with gov't cut backs, local taxes are rising at a higher rate - at least where I live. It is costing more for the average America to live and many hard working blue collars are not getting the necessary raises. And it seems that is when they look more closely at the costs of those home improvements and decide what they can do by themselves. Houses will still be painted and the paint companies will still sell their raised pricing, but I am afraid there will be an increase in sales to the HO's and the lowballers.


excellent post my friend. How you feeling btw?


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

the writing has been on the wall for years with TiO2, and it has risen every year over the last 20+ years. cheaper paints use less TiO2 meaning the prices will not rise as much (behr,conco,kilz,etc...) 
i would bet that in 15 years local paint stores are gone driven out by these prices........ good thing for a free market i guess


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

nEighter said:


> excellent post my friend. How you feeling btw?



good days and bad days. I just can't sneeze again.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

There is not "rich homeowner land" that continues to buy no matter what.. I wish there was a place like that.. but everyone is watching money.. just saying..


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

nEighter said:


> They follow suit though. Look at BIN. It went to $40.00/gal EVERYWHERE.. I can get it from glidden for around $33.00/gal but not sure how much longer


Bin has raised by quite a large percent but 123 and cover stain have not risen by such. Other latex products are and will be cheaper then sw. 

I just don't see how contractors can say duration paint is so great when coverage is poor and the product is so thin and costly. Also when you see 200 my once go to paint become thinner and raised prices does make one. 

Sw is now more of a specialty store for me with industrial applications I can not get else where. Glidden soon possibly


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

wills fresh coat said:


> it will be cheaper to paper


Damn right. I'll be taking applications come March.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I just looked up Titatium dioxide on wikipedia. The pricing to the painting industry, if what we hear is accurate, looks totally manufactured by the suppliers. There are three main minerals from which TiO2 come: anatase, rutile, and brookite. Plus some synthetics. Although these minerals are mined, beach sand also contains available quatities. 

the process doesn't appear too much more complicated than converting limestone or gypsum into plaster. 

Also, many other products use Titanium white, like paper, plastics, and food. Is the price of paper going up 40% ? 

I just wonder how much of this price increase is valid and how much is manufactured by SW because their top brass and stockholders want a piece of that class dividing pie.?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I truly doubt 40%, but a big part of my business is exterior repaints on average american homes using around 25 -40 gallons an increase on the cost of painting their home of say ($400) would be enough for many to say, never mind & maybe opt for just cleaning.
Oh, that's right, I have a pressure washing business too


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Jack and Zoomer turned us onto Behr just in the knick of time I guess.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

Sw must train these sales reps and managers for these price increases. When oil prices where on the rise all you heard about was 150 oil. Now all you hear about is titanium. God bless there soles because they are going to catch a wind of shiat when they pump up the prices.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Anyone ever notice how the price jacks up quickly when oil future go up? But NEVER come down when oil prices fall?

Gee, I am SOOO surprised.

And this has been happening since I started in 71.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

In Demand said:


> What about Behr ? Please tell me the best paint ever is not going up in price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


 Behr will be fair. even if it does you'll be covered.:thumbsup:


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

optimal said:


> Bin has raised by quite a large percent but 123 and cover stain have not risen by such. Other latex products are and will be cheaper then sw.


Apparently there is a problem with the Lac bug that the resin is derived from.

http://texaspaint.com/2011/01/shellac-shortage-bug-paint-industry/


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

well that is exactly what he said, that they are being like Opec-kers and putting a strangle hold on the industry (titanium dioxide industry) and inflating prices.

I have spoke to guys who said they cannot get people to buy DeckScapes stain at $36.00/gal.. to stain their decks, maybe this is a godsend? 

Not sure yet.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

In Demand said:


> What about Behr ? Please tell me the best paint ever is not going up in price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


Even if it does you'll be covered regardless. Behr will be fair.wont be over Behring.:thumbsup:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

optimal said:


> Bin has raised by quite a large percent but 123 and cover stain have not risen by such. Other latex products are and will be cheaper then sw.
> 
> I just don't see how contractors can say duration paint is so great when coverage is poor and the product is so thin and costly. Also when you see 200 my once go to paint become thinner and raised prices does make one.
> 
> Sw is now more of a specialty store for me with industrial applications I can not get else where. Glidden soon possibly


The Laq beetle and something about them not producing as much.. probably got told they were loosing their pensions.. so they just up and quit producing as much.. it is always the little guy or bug in this case that gets hurt 



mudbone said:


> Behr will be fair. even if it does you'll be covered* IN RUNS*.:thumbsup:


fix.t for you


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Use it as a selling tool, tell them About high quality paint and how it last longer and in the long run will save them money because they won't have to repaint as often. Every situation has an angle that can be played to your advantage. 
If you come in telling a HO that the prices have skyrocketed and start making excuses for your price then you have already lost. 
Take control of the situation, present the quote mention the price of paint has risen drastically then go on to tell them why you think the best thing to do would be to go high end and get the most for their money. 
Prices will go up non matter what, we have to roll with the punches.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

In Demand said:


> Jack and Zoomer turned us onto Behr just in the knick of time I guess.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


What about me?What about me?


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm not seeing this news anywhere else. Not in Paint Square,Construction Business News, coatingdworld or even Google its self. I hope this is just hearsay and rumor. 40% seems ridiculous and it would seem to have to be industry wide not just SW.


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

I'll use berh premium over 200 now even though my 200 prices are cheaper. I think the product covers well and I am not sure how your getting runs from it, unless it is very humid in the area your painting. I am not afraid to say I like behr products.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

prototype66 said:


> I'm not seeing this news anywhere else. Not in Paint Square,Construction Business News, coatingdworld or even Google its self. I hope this is just hearsay and rumor. 40% seems ridiculous and it would seem to have to be industry wide not just SW.


Just heard about it. Expect a 8.5% increase next month, then 10% each quarter. Also asked about the resetting of the accounts, and was told that mostly the lower and middle accounts get effected. That your store is supposed to keep track to make sure your numbers don't just get reset, but if you are a low or middle of the road user (up to $25,000/yr) then you need to check to make sure ALL your account pricing was not reset at price increase.

I will have to check at the pmi magazine to see what they are predicting.

http://www.pcimag.com/articles/u-s-zinc-raises-prices-for-zinc-oxide-and-zinc-dust
http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/BuyHoldSellAnalysis.do?tkr=SHW
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Higher-prices-push-up-apf-2730582016.html

to see what the insiders are saying about it.. Forbes talks about their last quarter and what the future holds.


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## Goode Painters (Jan 1, 2011)

My local mngr says he hasn't heard anything bout this increase and anything this drastic he thinks he would have heard by now- however there national sales meeting is end of Jan in nAshville maybe they will announce then--so how good are ur sources are they pullin ur leg?


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Rising material cost is the greatest gift to business owners. I'm not being sarcastic, it is reality. If a person runs their business like a business, they mark up materials by a percentage. As that base cost goes up, so does your gross dollars. The competition, including DIY'ers ALL have to pay more. Since there is no real cash flow cost to cover materials (since colors are custom, not stocked and customer pays upfront for them) price increases mean more money in your pocket. Now for those that stock pallets of new construction grade paint, this is probably not good news because more dollars are tied in inventory.


If that were always the case, then no one should care if taxes on businesses go up..."if a person runs their business like a business..." just pass on that tax increase on to the consumer. But that doesn't seem to work out in such a nice 1 to 1 ratio. Why the discrepancy? And similar arguments can be made for other regulatory burdens that add cost.

The reality is that consumers will always look at the bottom line and as Bill said, no one cares much about your COGS.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Oh, and I'm really doubting a 40% increase. Talked to my rep and no one's heard of anything that drastic. But smaller increases are coming. Those can be absorbed without much issue.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Goode Painters said:


> My local mngr says he hasn't heard anything bout this increase and anything this drastic he thinks he would have heard by now- however there national sales meeting is end of Jan in nAshville maybe they will announce then--so how good are ur sources are they pullin ur leg?


this guy is solid. He has been a manager of this store for longer than I have been in the trades. He is solid. We can only hope his info was bad, but the increments I have shared is what he was told to tell his customers as far as future price increases were concerned.

Let us all hope not, but he had all the figures and numbers right there and when they would happen.. and he would not pull my leg to have something to talk about.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Rising material cost is the greatest gift to business owners. I'm not being sarcastic, it is reality. If a person runs their business like a business, they mark up materials by a percentage. As that base cost goes up, so does your gross dollars. The competition, including DIY'ers ALL have to pay more. Since there is no real cash flow cost to cover materials (since colors are custom, not stocked and customer pays upfront for them) price increases mean more money in your pocket. Now for those that stock pallets of new construction grade paint, this is probably not good news because more dollars are tied in inventory.


I agree for residential type work but in most of my projects we bid and are sometimes awarded the work up to a year later or we have current projects running that can last months if not years. It's not easy to pass off product price increases on contracted work.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

not that it matters for this board, but when Ford disbanded SVT back in the early 2000's I painted a house for a high up in Ford that told me they were not gone, but restructuring.. they came back out with the 05' shelby gt500. I was everything but spit on on the Mustang boards for havin the future knowledge.. noone thought they would be back. I had to go back and make sure to bump that thread once the news hit  about SVT being alive and well.


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

nEighter said:


> not that it matters for this board, but when Ford disbanded SVT back in the early 2000's I painted a house for a high up in Ford that told me they were not gone, but restructuring.. they came back out with the 05' shelby gt500. I was everything but spit on on the Mustang boards for havin the future knowledge.. noone thought they would be back. I had to go back and make sure to bump that thread once the news hit  about SVT being alive and well.


Post 5000! :thumbup:


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Eat it pass it on, Or start making this..:surrender:


1870 Milk Paint Formula

1 Quart skim milk (room temperature) 
1 Ounce of hydrated lime by weight 
(Available at building centers. Do not use quick lime, as it will react with the water and heat up. Hydrated lime has been soaked in water then dried.)
1 to 2 1/2 pounds of chalk may also be added as a filler.

Stir in enough skim milk to hydrated lime to make a cream. Add balance of skim milk. Now add sufficient amount of powder pigment to desired color and consistency (Pigment powder must be limeproof). Stir in well for a few minutes before using. For best results continue to stir throughout use. Apply milk paint with a cheap natural bristle brush. Allow project to dry sufficiently before applying next coat. Extra paint may be kept for several days in the refrigerator, until the milk sours. Double or triple the recipe for paint. Allow to dry thoroughly 3-4 hours before use. For extra protection, give paint a coat of oil finish or sealer. Color may change - test in inconspicuous area.


Very Durable Weather Resistant Paint

5 parts cottage cheese or dry curd cheese 
(Dry curd cheese is cottage cheese without cream or flavoring added. You can make a similar cheese by putting cottage cheese into cheesecloth and hanging it until it stops draining. Use cottage cheese if you’re in a hurry.)
1 part hydrated lime or slacked lime

Mix hydrated lime with water to make a paste. Add to cottage cheese and stir in well. Leave for few hours - the cheese lump will dissolve completely. Select some powder pigments and add to solution (Pigment powder must be limeproof). Add more water if too thick; powdered skim milk if too thin. Strain if you want a fine paint (old nylon stocking works well).

Have a GREAT time painting!!!!:jester:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

prototype66 said:


> Post 5000! :thumbup:


:thumbup:

I am sorry, it was in 05 I painted the house, the shelby came out as an svt car in 07.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

y.painting said:


> If that were always the case, then no one should care if taxes on businesses go up..."if a person runs their business like a business..." just pass on that tax increase on to the consumer. But that doesn't seem to work out in such a nice 1 to 1 ratio. Why the discrepancy? And similar arguments can be made for other regulatory burdens that add cost.
> 
> The reality is that consumers will always look at the bottom line and as Bill said, no one cares much about your COGS.


 Very good points. I have to admit I am getting a little tired at times of trying to sell projects for 50% more than the "competition" and the majority of that 50% is not my own. I am selling for the paint companies, workers comp, the EPA and Uncle Sam. Hell, Benjamin Moore wants to give me a decal to put on my truck of their logo! I told them it would cost them $50/month to advertise on my van(_they didn't go for it_). It wouldn't be so bad if I was trying to justify being more expensive because we were "better", but most of the time the reason we cost more is because we are not using Behr, because we have legal employes and we pay our taxes. The average consumer, especially these days, doesn't care about my costs. They read Consumer Reports and see that Behr is rated top quality and I'm trying to justify a paint bill for twice that because it is "better"? I think if SW and Ben Moore keep going they are going to price themselves right out of many markets. 

I see it when I am in the paint store and a homeowner comes in to buy paint and the salesperson tells them the price ranges for the products. Usually when they hear the Aura price they get this funny look on their face and a few minutes later I see them walking out with some super spec or even super hide.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

optimal said:


> I'll use berh premium over 200 now even though my 200 prices are cheaper. I think the product covers well and I am not sure how your getting runs from it, unless it is very humid in the area your painting. I am not afraid to say I like behr products.


The first step is admitting you have a problem:whistling2:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'll need a better source then nater.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

The day after the Stop Sherwin Williams thread is closed for redundancy we get a new thread and can start all over. :whistling2:


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

Scotiadawg said:


> The first step is admitting you have a problem:whistling2:


I really don't follow what your saying. Maybe it's me or the high horse your on.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

If nothing else we painters need to stick together.Bottom line bottom dollar.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The Mayans predicted that this would happen in 2012.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> The Mayans predicted that this would happen in 2012.


....


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> The day after the Stop Sherwin Williams thread is closed for redundancy we get a new thread and can start all over. :whistling2:



They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.


PT is insanity.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

optimal said:


> I really don't follow what your saying. Maybe it's me or the high horse your on.


Nah, jest a broke down ol mule - like me:thumbsup:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> The Mayans predicted that this would happen in 2012.


Ha, I just saw this on FB!


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

nEighter said:


> HOT OFF THE PRESSES. There was a 8.5% increase last October, then in February another 8.5% increase will hit. Then every quarter a 10% increase.
> 
> So by December Sherwin Williams paint will be 40% more than it is right now.
> 
> ...


I wonder if this includes paint related items too or just items using Ti02?


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## SoCal Paint (Nov 7, 2011)

There was an 8.5% increase announced for February. However, all the other major paint companies in SoCal have also announced increases ranging from 5-10% also.. All future increases are rumors at this point.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

SoCal Paint said:


> There was an 8.5% increase announced for February. However, all the other major paint companies in SoCal have also announced increases ranging from 5-10% also.. All future increases are rumors at this point.


My BM guy told me all their paint is going up sometime this month


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> I truly doubt 40%, but a big part of my business is exterior repaints on average american homes using around 25 -40 gallons an increase on the cost of painting their home of say ($400) would be enough for many to say, never mind & maybe opt for just cleaning.
> Oh, that's right, I have a pressure washing business too


LOL. That's why its no big deal to me, I guess. In reality, I know what you guys are saying. The material cost in itself is a good thing for each job you do land, but I understand how it may sway some people on larger jobs into either waiting or doing it themselves. Sales comes into play. If it does go up 40% its not going to get any cheaper later so that objection can be overcome easily. 

1. Homeowner can hire to do it today, which is the cheapest its ever going to be.
Or..
2. They can do it themselves. Which also seems moot or you wouldn't be there giving an estimate in the first place. 

The only other option is to not do it at all and let their property value and pride in their home fall into the sewer. Not really viable either. I still stand by my original assessment. Its a good thing for painters that have their act together.

Bill if you do not raise over the cost of the increase, you are losing margin. To make the same percentage on a 3% increase you have to raise prices 5% to stay even.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

y.painting said:


> If that were always the case, then no one should care if taxes on businesses go up..."if a person runs their business like a business..." just pass on that tax increase on to the consumer. But that doesn't seem to work out in such a nice 1 to 1 ratio. Why the discrepancy? And similar arguments can be made for other regulatory burdens that add cost.
> 
> The reality is that consumers will always look at the bottom line and as Bill said, no one cares much about your COGS.


Yar, again, I hear what you are saying. I can only speak for myself when I say 100% of the time it is a 1 to 1 ratio. Every increase to me is passed along with the subsequent increase added to maintain margin. Its business and therefore objective for me. I imagine most corporations do the same thing. 

Taxes and regulatory price increases affect me personally because it increases my personal consumption costs. That doesn't really change the business formula though. I fully expect companies to pass along the increases. It actually makes the point for why I am opposed to regulation. The people that like the handouts, big gov't and are anti-corporation are the ones perpetuating the issues by sneaking off to Walmart to buy cheaply. They are raising their own cost of living and then wanting small businesses like yours and mine to lessen the burden for them.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Bill if you do not raise over the cost of the increase, you are losing margin. To make the same percentage on a 3% increase you have to raise prices 5% to stay even.



Not touting one system over another. Some people can be successful without marking up supplies (as long as they account for time costs of procurement) while others rely on percentage mark up.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bill, the only analogy I can make is your bank telling you that you need to stick more in your account and as reward, you will receive less interest on your dollars. 

I didn't actually realize there was any other way to do business other than with markup, thus the confusion on my part.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ken,

In a business whose only income is the reselling of goods (a dry goods merchant) then one needs to fully understand how much of a percent increase the cash going into the cash register needs to be over the cost of the goods going out the door for the business to be viable and profitable. Correct percent mark up is critical.

We, as service providers, make our profits from labor. I contend that one should understand how to charge for labor to make the business successful and not be in a position that markup on supplies will make a large impact on company profits. 

Material mark ups can pad a bit, but it's more important to address correctly where the profits REALLY come from and charge accordingly. 

But as we all know, I'm a business Neanderthal.


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## pinchegordo (Jul 3, 2011)

This thread is as stupid as the stop SW thread .... Stupid

Stupid





Stupid













Stupid
















Still stupid


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Stupid is as stupid does


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Gas went up - people adjusted and still drive. Groceries went up - people still eat. Utilities are up - people still have elec/water/nat. gas, etc. The point being is that people adjust no matter if it's essential items or not.

Drive through just about any neighborhood and you'll see homes where people feel that maintaining their homes is considered essential and those who don't. It's always been that way. Those who do so on a regular basis understand that costs go up. Depends on the customers you target to be your clientel.

In my area, people repaint exteriors every 5-8 years. Do they really need Duration, or for that matter, Superpaint? Probably not. But it was a selling tool. They were presented as options for the HO to consider. Just as an example: You decide, as the contractor, that the only products you'll use are either Dur. or SP. You give a bid and get beat by another contractor who presented a bid using A100, therefore his material costs are lower resulting in a lower bid.

There were times that price increases had me looking at viable and compatible alternatives to products that I was using. Sometimes I found some - other times I didn't.

There's more to winning a job than writing up a bid and submitting it. Using a little salesmanship and educating the HO on the benefits of what products you use can go a long way.


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

Don't see those BIG increases coming.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wolf,

Yes, people adjust. When gas goes over $4.00, many stop driving as much and the Priuses sell like hotcakes.

When meat skyrockets, people buy alternatives.

people adjust.


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## ajd paint (Dec 8, 2010)

My s.w rep just called and told me about increase 78.00 for duration startin in february


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## RLittlefield (Dec 25, 2011)

daArch said:


> Ken,
> 
> In a business whose only income is the reselling of goods (a dry goods merchant) then one needs to fully understand how much of a percent increase the cash going into the cash register needs to be over the cost of the goods going out the door for the business to be viable and profitable. Correct percent mark up is critical.
> 
> ...


Ken and others, you know I respect your opinions. However, this is also a valid way to do business.. labor only overhead recovery method, marks up all labor to break even, then make a profit. Materials are passed thru, with time for procurement figured in the cost. 

Either way, gotta know all your numbers. Worrying about a $400 increase in materials for a paint job killing the deal, though, makes me lol, then cry. 

Kill the cable subscription and start reading in the evening. None of my customers would consider painting themselves, or hiring a lowballer. Why? They know the difference, either before meeting me, or because of meeting me....


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

You know we're on the same page, Rich. 

The end result is still the same. If you don't mark up materials the extra percentage, you lose margin.. ie your material cost percentage goes up. Everything else is just semantics. Where one recaptures the loss on paper is irrelevant to the customer. The bottom line is the cost has to rise those extra points to maintain margin. 

*Example*
2011 gross: $1m gross, $150K materials (15%)

Now lets say we just mark up the cost of materials the exact same amount they increase and do not increase labor billing. 

2012 gross: $1,060,000, $210K in materials (almost 20%)

Many companies operate on 10% net. By giving up that 5% of gross sales to material cost, one would be losing half of their profits and would devalue the company dramatically. That is bad business.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

At what point do we stop allowing threads like these to exist. There is some great business conversations going on, but the last few claims that have been thrown out there are not true. I would really like to see some actual proof of these claims. (I know that it is not possible, but this is getting really old) 

P.S. I heard Behr is going up 25% per month each month this year, and BM is going out of business tomorrow


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

nEighter said:


> They follow suit though. Look at BIN. It went to $40.00/gal EVERYWHERE.. I can get it from glidden for around $33.00/gal but not sure how much longer


 
Look at Insl-x "Seal Lock", should be in the $30's.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

SWGuy said:


> At what point do we stop allowing threads like these to exist. There is some great business conversations going on, but the last few claims that have been thrown out there are not true. I would really like to see some actual proof of these claims. (I know that it is not possible, but this is getting really old)
> 
> P.S. I heard Behr is going up 25% per month each month this year, and BM is going out of business tomorrow


 
I agree, until something actually happens stop worrying about it. Play the hand you're dealt. If prices go up, they go up for everybody. Its not the end of the world, we still have 11 months until that happens......:whistling2: :jester:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> I agree, until something actually happens stop worrying about it. Play the hand you're dealt. If prices go up, they go up for everybody. Its not the end of the world, we still have 11 months until that happens......:whistling2: :jester:


:nuke::sleep1:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

SWGuy said:


> At what point do we stop allowing threads like these to exist. There is some great business conversations going on, but the last few claims that have been thrown out there are not true. I would really like to see some actual proof of these claims. (I know that it is not possible, but this is getting really old)
> 
> P.S. I heard Behr is going up 25% per month each month this year, and BM is going out of business tomorrow


Great question. It does bring up some good business discussions though. So I think it is a trade off.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RLittlefield said:


> Ken and others, you know I respect your opinions. However, this is also a valid way to do business.. labor only overhead recovery method, marks up all labor to break even, then make a profit. Materials are passed thru, with time for procurement figured in the cost.


:thumbup:

I agree with this method.

It's uncomfortable if the issue comes up, or if the customers find out that you are charging more for a gallon of paint than you paid for it, or more than another contractor would charge them.

It just creates possible vectors for disappointment.

Also that way, when it comes to convincing them to use high quality materials to make sure the job gets done well, I feel completely comfortable assuring customers that the extra price is worth it.

If they find out we are marking up material costs, it just makes them wonder about how genuine the justification is for higher price materials.

Plus somewhere in the conversation you can always drop in the, *"We don't mark up materials like some contractors, we give them to you at the price we pay for them*"

:brows:

Ouch! I would hate to be one of the contractors the customer talks to after hearing that, and asks them if _they_ mark up _their materials_, or who's invoices they review to discover they got "marked up" on material costs!

:jester:

Then see who's company wins the bid! 

Sounds a little cutthroat, but hey, free market and all. Gotta love capitalism!



And if one does as Rlittlefield says, and charges for the time it takes to procure materials, it really is no loss to the contractor. And I think the customer can quantify/justify this direct charge on the invoice more easily than a one size fits all nebulous markup on materials, that isn't necessarily related to exactly how much time was spent on that particular job for procuring materials.

I think it better to take the gains that come from extra bids, and confidence of your clientele from not charging them more for materials, than you actually pay for them.

But different things, work for different people. 

Tomato/tamoto.

Or as Dan Quayle would say: _*Potatoe.*_

Is that too political?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Two comments:

SWGuy, if you have verifiable facts to refute what's been said, then *please *pass them on


I don't know about you painters, but my supplies (paste and prep coat) equal such a small percentage of my job pricing, that I would lose money (in time) trying to figure a percent increase each time prices rise. 

I know my numbers and quickly review them every job. Then adjust if necessary. 

How much percentage of you painters' invoices involve paint? 15% ? So now you have a 40% increase in a 15% item. I've already spent too much time just typing it, let alone figuring it out 

Some of these things can be over thought. 

IMO.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Has paint ever gone DOWN in price from one year to the next?

(not that I can recall..but I never really paid that much attention to it)


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Has paint ever gone DOWN in price from one year to the next?
> 
> (not that I can recall..but I never really paid that much attention to it)


Yep - moorguard was around 44 - the regal select which replaced it is 39.99 

just a note - the moorguard that was replaced was the socal version that used the genex tints

the soft gloss was in the high 40's, it's now the same price $39.99.

Pat


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks Pat..I usually just call the store beforehand if I'm bidding anything over a few gallons.

Maybe I shouldn't be so open about not really caring what paint costs...


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

daArch said:


> Two comments:
> 
> How much percentage of you painters' invoices involve paint? 15% ? So now you have a 40% increase in a 15% item. I've already spent too much time just typing it, let alone figuring it out
> 
> ...


Exactly. To keep things simple, I try to think "daily rate", unless the materials quantities are high enough to make me call the store to check prices.

If I have to pay $110 or $1110, I still want to know I will net a certain amount per day.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Thanks Pat..I usually just call the store beforehand if I'm bidding anything over a few gallons.
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't be so open about not really caring what paint costs...[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> Has paint ever gone DOWN in price from one year to the next?
> 
> (not that I can recall..but I never really paid that much attention to it)


 
It actually has. When fuel costs were high, we would get a surcharge on our deliveries. Some stores pass it on, others dont. When the fuel costs dropped down, the surcharge went away.

Gemini raised prices when oil was high, then lowered it when they went back down. I actually had to read the letter they sent twice. Usually when we get a letter its about an "increase" not a "decrease"....


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

speaking of...

I went to McDonalds for the first time in a dogs age yesterday and got a Angus burger (or something like that), upsized my drink not my fries and it was just over $10 bucks!


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## Jman (Jan 20, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> Rising material cost is the greatest gift to business owners. I'm not being sarcastic, it is reality. If a person runs their business like a business, they mark up materials by a percentage. As that base cost goes up, so does your gross dollars. The competition, including DIY'ers ALL have to pay more. Since there is no real cash flow cost to cover materials (since colors are custom, not stocked and customer pays upfront for them) price increases mean more money in your pocket. Now for those that stock pallets of new construction grade paint, this is probably not good news because more dollars are tied in inventory.





nEighter said:


> What was funny was I said "so they want their duration to be the same price as Aura huh?" and he said it already pretty much is, and it will be $87.00 by december!
> 
> :no:
> 
> oh well what you going to do?


Not sure where your getting your aura from, but I am paying $53.99 a gallon and it is a much better and easier product than duration to use. Broken by square, it cost me less.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Jman said:


> Not sure where your getting your aura from, but I am paying $53.99 a gallon and it is a much better and easier product than duration to use. Broken by square, it cost me less.


does it cover in one coat like the interior stuff??


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## Gproinc (Aug 22, 2011)

This has been the 1000lbs elephant in the room for a while. I got a letter from ppg that pretty much said expect to be paying a lot more as their raw materials have gone up i.e the titanium dioxide. I find the biggest problem i have been having is negotiations with the vendors. My local Ben Moore store has be charging all the contractors "suggested retail",which does not allow a lot of room in the markup area. I feel as though they are shooting themselves in the foot.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Funny, I just read an industry newsletter that bragged on PPG making record profits in 2011.


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## Gproinc (Aug 22, 2011)

ProWallGuy said:


> Funny, I just read an industry newsletter that bragged on PPG making record profits in 2011.


Their cost of doing business remains the same. They pass the buck onto their customer. 


**** rolls down hill!


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Gas just went up here: now $1.29 per liter!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Gproinc said:


> I find the biggest problem i have been having is negotiations with the vendors. My local Ben Moore store has be charging all the contractors "suggested retail",which does not allow a lot of room in the markup area. I feel as though they are shooting themselves in the foot.


You know I can ship right? :whistling2: :thumbup:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> You know I can ship right? :whistling2: :thumbup:


Ok I need 2 gallons of BM Concepts :thumbup:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Ok I need 2 gallons of BM Concepts :thumbup:


That must be the Canadian knock off.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> Whats the big deal?
> 
> Just purchase your paint only when they have their twice weekly 40% off sales....


SW does the classic "raise the price first" then discount 40% later routine as good as any retailer out there. I figured this out when they made a mistake and didn't give me my 40% discount during one of those sales. My SuperPaint price rang up as $39.99 but wasn't discounted. I went back in to get it corrected a week later (when the sale was continued) and after the correction I saw that the "new" regular price was $45.99! They're slick!


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## PaintinNC (Dec 20, 2009)

As far as TiO2, it isnt the only ingredient in paint that has gone up a TON in the past few years. In addition most of the companies that make theses chemicals have bought up that smaller ones and therefore if you want Ingredient A you have to go to Company B, you have no choice. If you want to blame anyone, blame China............these companies tell the US paint industries you can pay this price or we can put it on a boat and ship it to China because they will pay whatever we say.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

My rep confirmed an 8.5% increase coming some time first quarter that is unavoidable. The other 31.5% is negotiable, so be nice to your reps guys.  

He said SW was working on synthetic TiO2, but it was years away maybe a decade. Retail prices are funny for SW. A floor coating I am looking at is twice the contractor price. I guess some people would walk in and pay that. 

Short plug for North Cromwell paint. NCpaint will ship, and he is really professional to deal with.


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## Ryder11 (Aug 31, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> That must be the Canadian knock off.


I don't think Concepts is available in Canada yet. Not here yet anyway. It's new:
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-your-home/concepts


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

What is the box store in Canada? I seem to remember reading something about a BM paint coming to it on CT.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> What is the box store in Canada? I seem to remember reading something about a BM paint coming to it on CT.


HD. ?:blink:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I think it may have been Menards.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Its ACE Hardware in Canada that will be carrying a limited line of Benjamin Moore paints.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

There is one in Canada that we do not have in the us. I think it sounded like a tire store name or something. A unique line to that store, but sure if it is a rebadge though.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think it is Canadian Tire. Odd name for a big box store.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Email from a BM retailer in my area I do not use.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

can't believe this is still going! so did we come up with a yes or no?

It may not be "bombshell" material.. but at the time of hearing paint going up almost by half.. I know my mouth dropped hearing it... figured you would like to know also.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Accept, adapt and/or move on !


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## Windy Painters (Mar 28, 2011)

Tehy just called me about 8.5% price increase. You just have to bother them. I saw 2 months ago receipt for pretty big company - 16$/g ProMar 200 semi-gloss - in bucket. They pissed me of. after my very unplesant phone call and quick conversation they reduced my prices to : 200 ZeroVOC 20$/g - low-sheen and eggshell, regular 200 - 19$/g, flat 15$/h and CHB 10.5 $/g in bucket. 
2 years ago SW had explanation - oil prices - . What about now ????? Why they didn't lower the prices when the oil price went down ???


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Windy Painters said:


> 2 years ago SW had explanation - oil prices - . What about now ????? Why they didn't lower the prices when the oil price went down ???


They never seem to lower prices on anything after they put them up for whatever reason.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I was informed 7-8% by my SW rep. But he will work a deal for me.....riiiiggghhhhhttttt!!!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

With my sights busy on pro200 0 voc low sheen as a replacement for Duration matte, I am slashing around $20.00 per gallon.
I am on job 1 of my 10 job probationary period, and so far after 10 gallons I am more rhan pleased with the bright yellow and ultradeep base.
The 2 toughest bases to apply and it was effortless.

It would take 20 years of insane price increaes to match my current Duration prices...or maybe a couple years but whatever.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have decided to make my own paint.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I have decided to make my own paint.


look out Color Place, your days are numbered...


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