# Big Mistake!



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I got gallons of Zinsser cover stain oil based primer to use in an occupied residence. The HO is howling about the fumes. It does not bother me so much, I'm used to the oil products but even I have to say this stuff is really strong! I got out with the HO by talking about "better quality prime and security over fresh plaster" which I don't think is all nonsense, I do tend to believe it myself and would use it at my own house. I do believe it is better BUT I should have gone odorless in a lived in house. I opened windows and shut doors on drying primer. Today it's much better and the gentleman has left the house for a few hours. TALK ABOUT A DUMB MOVE! Never again for a client! They are very sensitive these days. Years ago, even HOs were prepared for odor with fresh paint, not anymore.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I think Coverstain wreaks more than any oil paint I've ever used. In the winter, when you can't open windows, etc. I might use it to spot prime when necessary but that's about it.

Few years ago I made the stupid mistake of painting a room in a basement where there were no windows. Customer's daughter used the room as a bedroom and wrote all sorts of bizarre messages on almost 100% of the wall surfaces. In marker! I bombed the room with coverstain. About 20 minutes into it I started to feel kind of weird. Then I felt like I'd dropped lsd. Eventually I went upstairs, walked right past my customer and out of the house. Stood by my van staring at it in the freezing cold until I had the mental capacity to go back in the house again and explain to my customer that I was done for the day. Never again.

Plus the coverstain smell sticks around forever.

I find the Zinnser odourless oil spatters too much and dries to soft. Never liked it.


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Cover Stain is pretty potent stuff, just like Kilz original esp. when sprayed. Did an empty house a year ago with 20 gal. of the stuff but gassed myself even with a mask. But it does work.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz it.*

Why not use Gardz? I use it all the time over USG Durabond and USG Easy Sand, both of which are 60-70% plaster. Here is the Gardz blurb regarding new plaster: 
• Plaster – Allow new plaster to cure at least 24 hours before
applying GARDZ. Before priming old, bare plaster with GARDZ be
sure to determine that the surface is clean, dry and in sound
condition, taking care to repair any cracks or holes with
spackling paste or joint compound before sealing the surface. 

I am guessing that Gardz will soak into the plaster better than any primer. If the sheen of the 1st coat is not even (has dull spots) you will need a 2nd coat over at least the dull spots. Once you get the hang of rolling on Gardz it is easy. Painting over Gardz is a very pleasurable experience and you finished product will look very uniform, at least if you follow the directions on the can as far as getting an even sheen of Gardz. A second coat of Gardz goes very fast. 

As far as odor, Gardz does have an ammonia odor, but it seems to dissipate reasonably fast (1-2 hours) even in winter. Just my 2 cents.

futtyos


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Why would you ever use a oil primer on new plaster 
You are doing a disservice to your Customer


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Phinnster said:


> Why would you ever use a oil primer on new plaster
> You are doing a disservice to your Customer


Its not really "new Plaster", it's lots of large mud fills.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I don't see the advantage of oil in the OP.

Last time I needed interior oil prime I used this, which like all ''odorless'' products actually just means slightly less odor:


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

Why not use gripper. Its my new When in doubt primer. Sticks to everything and has amazing stain sealing properties as well. Right from the info sheet

New concrete, masonry or plaster: must age
at least 30 days and be thoroughly dry before
painting. 

Intended Uses
• New and maintenance work
• Interior and exterior residential and commercial
sites
• Unpainted wood, plaster, drywall, concrete,
stucco, masonry, galvanized metal, aluminum
and previously painted surfaces

even seals red wood and cedar.

EDIT: as far as adhesion it will stick to clear coats and glossy surfaces. It will bind perfectly to plaster and leave a nice white palate to start painting on. 

GRIPPER TDS: https://www.dulux.ca/ppg/dulux/media/tds/60000-dulux-gripper_tds.pdf?ext=.pdf


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Did I mention this was a mistake? Not an issue I generally have. I absolutely trust the whole line of Insl-X primers. In fact, usually, my go to primer is Aqualock.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Did I mention this was a mistake? Not an issue I generally have. I absolutely trust the whole line of Insl-X primers. In fact, usually, my go to primer is Aqualock.


You should really give gripper a try. I used it on water damaged plaster a few years ago. It worked awesome. No bleed, no bonding issues, etc. It's a decent product for over oil too


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

journeymanPainter said:


> You should really give gripper a try. I used it on water damaged plaster a few years ago. It worked awesome. No bleed, no bonding issues, etc. It's a decent product for over oil too


I'll check if my guy carries any Dulux product. I know he does a few: PPG, Para and a couple of others. I am trying to keep my business with one Indy guy because here in Welland he's the most serious of the paint stores but cute BM "Decorating Centers" are killing him. Worse there are a lot of discount painters in the area using really bad $10 a gallon paint. He and I are both up against it where the $10 people are so abundant. (Welland had all its industries pack up and leave, all the unemployed decided they were painters and collect unemployment benefits while painting cash only jobs at $10 an hour.)


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> I'll check if my guy carries any Dulux product. I know he does a few: PPG, Para and a couple of others. I am trying to keep my business with one Indy guy because here in Welland he's the most serious of the paint stores but cute BM "Decorating Centers" are killing him. Worse there are a lot of discount painters in the area using really bad $10 a gallon paint. He and I are both up against it where the $10 people are so abundant. (Welland had all its industries pack up and leave, all the unemployed decided they were painters and collect unemployment benefits while painting cash only jobs at $10 an hour.)


Yeah, London was hit pretty bad for awhile there too


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## JakeTheAnchor (Feb 23, 2016)

Lmao I used Coverstain for 3 hours on cabinets once...I walked out high as a kite. Couldn't drive for an hour


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

If we have to use an oil primer or paint we tell the home owners it may stink a little or it will stink bad.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I used cover stain on an interior once about twenty five years ago. The good thing about it for interiors is it will kill fleas and spiders, but you'it won't kill the roaches.

I'll use BIN everytime over cover stain. It evaporates so fast there is hardly any lingering odors.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

I see no reason to use oil on plaster. I would use white shellac on stains or a latex primer or both.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

These replies are classic.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> These replies are classic.


Obviously, this vague quote will have to be explained in order to respect it's gravity. Otherwise, it's merely a pug fart in a strong breeze.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Obviously, this vague quote will have to be explained in order to respect it's gravity. Otherwise, it's merely a pug fart in a strong breeze.


There is nothing "merely" about a pug fart.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Wild bill that was funny !

Sad thing is I know exactly what your talking about 
I have literally been there
Also these fumes can put you in a very bad mood at times


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> I'll check if my guy carries any Dulux product. I know he does a few: PPG, Para and a couple of others. I am trying to keep my business with one Indy guy because here in Welland he's the most serious of the paint stores but cute BM "Decorating Centers" are killing him. Worse there are a lot of discount painters in the area using really bad $10 a gallon paint. He and I are both up against it where the $10 people are so abundant. (Welland had all its industries pack up and leave, all the unemployed decided they were painters and collect unemployment benefits while painting cash only jobs at $10 an hour.)


may sound weird but Welland Ontario Canada?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

AlphaWolf said:


> may sound weird but Welland Ontario Canada?


Never heard of it?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

In the future I will stick with the superior adhesion water based primers. In point of fact, I had no stains to cover that I know of. The skim coat is pure white. Generally speaking, I like and trust oil primers but this cover stain stuff has the strongest fumes I ever worked with. I have a few more gallons but I'm taking them for a trade in on something that won't kill me. The stuff was still stinking last evening!


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

AlphaWolf said:


> may sound weird but Welland Ontario Canada?


I live in Hamilton ontario. I was curious becasue i have done alot of work in Welland as well. AS what she described sounds exactly like Welland near me lol.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Just out of curiosity, other then the smell and voc compliant issues how is one doing a disservice by using oil based primers on plaster?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Coverstain has a few nasty's in it. One of which is n-nonane, which has a strong gasoline type smell. A lot of the odor comes from the solvents used to make it fast drying but remain voc compliant. (Even in non-US regulatory markets they sell a version of Coverstain that meets certain US EPA required changes enacted in the last 5 years or so.) Some of these solvents are kind of exotic and unusual in the paint market in general and have pretty strong odors. They even go so far as recommending a forced air respirator when enough ventilation is not available, which is kind of unusual as well. For most architectural paints a cartridge type respirator is considered adequate by the manufacturers.

The most important thing when considering what primer to use is the Ph level of the plaster you are going to paint, as well as the knowledge that Ph levels in plaster are not typically stable over an extended period of time. In areas of high moisture content over an extended period of time the Ph level can be very much effected, which in turn can cause failure of the prime coat. This is something that is rarely taken into consideration during re-paints, and it can be very difficult to anticipate.

I have seen, and addressed, many primer failures in 32 years (god has it really been that long?) over plaster substrates and it is almost always due to a change in the Ph and the moisture content changing over time causing either the coating to peel off or the plaster itself to lose structural integrity. I have seen this on new plaster and even plaster walls that have existed for 130 years or more. Sometimes even the act of applying a fresh coat of paint can somehow trigger a failure of a previously sound painted surface. It has been my experience in these situations that prepping the plaster with a vinegar wash and rinse, followed by a prime coat of a non-fast drying alkyd primer, is the best long term solution to these problems. Again this isn't a hard fast rule, but I typically recommend these types of primers on any new or bare plaster surface. Typically if an older plaster wall is "bare" it is bare for a reason and that reason is usually as I described. Ph, moisture content and or mold/mildew, waterborne primer/paint failure.

There are many alkaline resistant primers on the market but again take into consideration the fact that if it fails the manufacturer will only give you more product or your money back and you will still be responsible for any labor incurred when fixing the failure. I HAVE seen these waterborne alkali resistant primers fail miserably in areas of high moisture content.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

AlphaWolf said:


> I live in Hamilton ontario. I was curious becasue i have done alot of work in Welland as well. AS what she described sounds exactly like Welland near me lol.


It is the Welland near you! :yes:


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

PACman said:


> The most important thing when considering what primer to use is the Ph level of the plaster you are going to paint, as well as the knowledge that Ph levels in plaster are not typically stable over an extended period of time. In areas of high moisture content over an extended period of time the Ph level can be very much effected, which in turn can cause failure of the prime coat. This is something that is rarely taken into consideration during re-paints, and it can be very difficult to anticipate.
> 
> I have seen, and addressed, many primer failures in 32 years (god has it really been that long?) over plaster substrates and it is almost always due to a change in the Ph and the moisture content changing over time causing either the coating to peel off or the plaster itself to lose structural integrity. I have seen this on new plaster and even plaster walls that have existed for 130 years or more. Sometimes even the act of applying a fresh coat of paint can somehow trigger a failure of a previously sound painted surface. It has been my experience in these situations that prepping the plaster with a vinegar wash and rinse, followed by a prime coat of a non-fast drying alkyd primer, is the best long term solution to these problems. Again this isn't a hard fast rule, but I typically recommend these types of primers on any new or bare plaster surface. Typically if an older plaster wall is "bare" it is bare for a reason and that reason is usually as I described. Ph, moisture content and or mold/mildew, waterborne primer/paint failure.
> .


I concur. We typically prime bare plaster with an alkyd primer before we do any repairs/patching as the water/moisture in the patching compounds can also change the Ph level of the plaster. We seal first, then patch, then spot prime our patches and paint.

I think what some people might be calling plaster in this thread are actually referring to anything that has been patched. Modern compounds like USG Ready Mix, Easy Sand or Durabond are all patching products but they are NOT plaster. 

Plasterers are a dying breed and plastering is an almost lost art.


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> It is the Welland near you! :yes:


nice what is the local paint store you use? The Paint can, Ken Nash? been to them all. The Dulux in Welland near the McDonalds will sell or get any product you may need. I have used every store in welland as well as the little Bennys that open up. So far id go with nothing but Dulux. Sico and Para leave a lot to be desired and BM is well not the the cost a gallon unless it magically applies its self lol.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I just spoke with an old acquaintance of mine, someone who is much more up to date on the Zinsser products, and he informed me that there has been two new formulations of the "high hide low voc" version of coverstain since May of 2015. Apparently they have been changing the solvent mix to find something that maintains their performance level and the voc level while also trying to find a cheaper blend. That may explain some of the micro-bubbling issues I have had as well as some stronger odors. Some of the more exotic voc complying solvents actually have some pretty nasty odor. Usually the lower odor solvents are quite a bit more expensive then the ones they are using to keep their costs down. 

But this could be part of the master plan to save the planet. Save the world by killing all the humans in as many untraceable ways as possible.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

AlphaWolf said:


> nice what is the local paint store you use? The Paint can, Ken Nash? been to them all. The Dulux in Welland near the McDonalds will sell or get any product you may need. I have used every store in welland as well as the little Bennys that open up. So far id go with nothing but Dulux. Sico and Para leave a lot to be desired and BM is well not the the cost a gallon unless it magically applies its self lol.


It's Ken Nash I am supporting.


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

ya hes a nice guy. Had some old school paint and spray equipment there lol. What products does he Cary these day.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

AlphaWolf said:


> ya hes a nice guy. Had some old school paint and spray equipment there lol. What products does he Cary these day.


He is a nice guy. His girl is very mature and knows her stuff. Carries all the basics and seems to be knowledgeable about product. Anything he does not have he will order for you and he treats me well with referrals when someone asks for a painter/decorator. I'm not a fan of the cutely appointed decorator paint stores with pretty young ladies pushing what ever they tell her to. (Generally these decorative souls know nothing about product and are company parrots)


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Roamer said:


> I concur. We typically prime bare plaster with an alkyd primer before we do any repairs/patching as the water/moisture in the patching compounds can also change the Ph level of the plaster. We seal first, then patch, then spot prime our patches and paint.
> 
> I think what some people might be calling plaster in this thread are actually referring to anything that has been patched. Modern compounds like USG Ready Mix, Easy Sand or Durabond are all patching products but they are NOT plaster.
> 
> Plasterers are a dying breed and plastering is an almost lost art.


Sad but true


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> He is a nice guy. His girl is very mature and knows her stuff. Carries all the basics and seems to be knowledgeable about product. Anything he does not have he will order for you and he treats me well with referrals when someone asks for a painter/decorator. I'm not a fan of the cutely appointed decorator paint stores with pretty young ladies pushing what ever they tell her to. (Generally these decorative souls know nothing about product and are company parrots)


That is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Consumers don't seem to realized how much they are truly paying for the privilege of buying paint from the Taj Mahal. Lower quality paint, sub-par service, higher selling price. That's kind of where the retail paint market has gone the last twenty years or so.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Use this one next time


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## Bighead (Nov 28, 2008)

The newer version of Coverstain smells terrible and dries much slower thus contributing to the lingering odors. We still buy the older version in quarts but will not use the new stuff due to the odor and extended dry times.

Do not be fooled by the odorless products, the fumes are still very toxic. Open windows and when you finish priming large areas leave the area until the next day.


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