# Water-based bonding primers



## pintsizedpainter1 (Apr 11, 2019)

I read through a lot of threads, but still looking for more opinions. I will be changing over stained trim to paint in an entire home. What I would like to do is least amount of sanding (who doesn't). I normally would sand, use oil primer, sand, paint with oil. I am skipping the oil and want to change to Latex finish as oil is fading away around here. Oil primer is my go too, but I'm curious if anyone has had good results with a wb bonding primer? I did a test run on some base and a couple window sills using oil-based cover stain after sanding down the clear. . After 24 hrs of cure time I attempted to sand but not thrilled with the adhesion. Never had this issue with oil after sanding first. I know water-based has come a long way. I have few options close by...Ace Hardware with hardly any BM material, SW and Lowes (can not stand Valspar). Anyone have good experience with wb bonding primer over varnished trim with or without sanding?


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

My go-to WB Primer is Bullseye 123. 
Levels nicely, has good adhesion, and dries to re-paint in less than an hour.


----------



## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

I like 123 and sherwin extreme bond is good. Bullseye is a shellac product from zinnser and not waterbase.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

kmp said:


> I like 123 and sherwin extreme bond is good. Bullseye is a shellac product from zinnser and not waterbase.


BIN is the shellac primer from Zinser. 
Bullseye123 is the WB.


----------



## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I painted the stained and polyed trim in the kitchen of one of my rental homes a little over a year ago with Emerald trim Gloss hi hide white. No primer was used. Prep was with Dawn with a green scrub pad. I did scuff sand with some 220 any rough areas. I had 
4 windows which were weathered pretty bad from moisture and sunshine. Brushed two coats. No problems with adherence. Coverage was decent. I was in the house 4 months later and there weren't any issues. I expect to be back in a couple months to check condition again.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

123 is just a mediocre primer at best, its meant to be a 'do it all' price point product.



Just be aware the bonding primers like Stix or UMA have zero stain blocking ability.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

My go to for wb primer is INSX Stix. It certainly does stick to anything. Blows bullseye 123 away IMO.
If you can't get that, I would go to a shellac, like BIN. You can get that at all the harware stores.
It's alcohol based, so got a little stink on it, but not bad. For arguments sake, the WB primers have quite a smell on them too. 

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 123 is just a mediocre primer at best, its meant to be a 'do it all' price point product.


"mediocre" why/how? Compared to what?


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> My go to for wb primer is INSX Stix. It certainly does stick to anything. Blows bullseye 123 away IMO.
> If you can't get that, I would go to a shellac, like BIN. You can get that at all the harware stores.
> It's alcohol based, so got a little stink on it, but not bad. For arguments sake, the WB primers have quite a smell on them too.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


we meet again... 
Gotta say, there is no comparison regarding stink from BIN to say, 123. BIN will stink up a whole house in short order, whereas 123 is not nearly as noticeable. 

I do not have access to anything but Zinnser or SW, and have had bad luck with all of the SW primers I have tried. Why is STIX so much better than 123. I don't think 123 is a bad primer.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

STIX, or XIM UMA for max adhesion. They have no stain blocking power however. 123, problock, seal grip, etc, are pretty good, and they do stainblock to an extent, but they are iffy on adhesion. That said, they USUALLY work fine, but not always.


----------



## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Sw multi purpose does bond very well and blocks a good amount of stains. Depends on the species of wood and the age of the wood. I would at least wipe it all down with a deglosser if your going to skip sanding.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Gymschu said:


> I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.


I recently used Gripper primer on some Oak Cabinets and it failed. I've used Gripper for years without a problem but never on cabinets.

First I primed all the cabinets boxes and drawers at the job-site and then painted with 2 coats of Advance. The homeowner drilled some new holes for the handles and it came off in sheets after it had cured 30 days. I did everything right with prep so I was very surprised that it didn't stick very well.

I had some adhesion issues early on with the drawer faces and just re-primed it with gripper. I could have peeled all the primer off but I thought that might have been a curing issue. That worried me enough to spray all the doors with BIN primer.

Never again will I use Gripper or any WB primer for cabinets. Why take the chance? I shouldn't have listened to my paint rep who recommended the Gripper primer. Years ago i used Stix on some old kitchen cabinets and had to touch them up a few times because of chipping. I top coated them with cabinet coat.


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> I recently used Gripper primer on some Oak Cabinets and it failed. I've used Gripper for years without a problem but never on cabinets.
> 
> First I primed all the cabinets boxes and drawers at the job-site and then painted with 2 coats of Advance. The homeowner drilled some new holes for the handles and it came off in sheets after it had cured 30 days. I did everything right with prep so I was very surprised that it didn't stick very well.
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't play when it comes to priming cabinets. It sucks to spray BIN but it's even worse when a primer fails. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland Painting said:


> we meet again...
> 
> Gotta say, there is no comparison regarding stink from BIN to say, 123. BIN will stink up a whole house in short order, whereas 123 is not nearly as noticeable.
> 
> ...


 When it comes to bonding, Stix is just a better product. Can't tell you why. It's just my experience. I can trust it and I don't like surprises.. But yes it doesn't have the stain blocking power of other primers..And ya BIN is a bit stinky, but depends how much area you are doing. Crack a couple windows and the smell disapates pretty quick..

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Horror stories like Mr Smith’s is why I take no chances with my prep work if I’m concerned about adhesion. I’d rather lose a little money spending more time prepping the surfaces than dealing with a full blown failure.

Like others I’ve also had the best luck with Stix. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pintsizedpainter1 (Apr 11, 2019)

I heard great things about XIM UMA, unfortunately not available near me. I have no plans on skipping sanding as I know better. The prob is not sure if the trim was stained sealed and car dishes, but even after sanding well the test with cover stain failed. I can easily palm sand door they are cheap flat pine doors, basic windows w/ sills only so main concern is jambs and casings...so time consuming. No offense to those who use the 123 as I have had prior experience with and it's good for walls, spot priming etc., but I can't trust it over oil. Bin seems like its gonna be it for the availability I have. Ugh. It's not only the smell but also clean up. Might just do my own little experiment see what hold up best. I'd rather spend the money now then deal with massive failure later on.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

pintsizedpainter1 said:


> I heard great things about XIM UMA, unfortunately not available near me. I have no plans on skipping sanding as I know better. The prob is not sure if the trim was stained sealed and car dishes, but even after sanding well the test with cover stain failed. I can easily palm sand door they are cheap flat pine doors, basic windows w/ sills only so main concern is jambs and casings...so time consuming. No offense to those who use the 123 as I have had prior experience with and it's good for walls, spot priming etc., but I can't trust it over oil. Bin seems like its gonna be it for the availability I have. Ugh. It's not only the smell but also clean up. Might just do my own little experiment see what hold up best. I'd rather spend the money now then deal with massive failure later on.


Cover stain failed?? Wow.


----------



## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

You mentioned you had acces to SW. SW makes a alcohol based shellac primer which I consider to be 100 percent interchangable with BIN. Anything less than $40 / gal is a good price now days. Be careful SW also has an artificial shellac and its right beside the real deal. They also have the rattle cans which are good for spot priming, small jobs, or for when you just don't want to clean up.


----------



## pintsizedpainter1 (Apr 11, 2019)

Woodco said:


> Cover stain failed?? Wow.


Yup, sure did. Brand new gallon. Maybe I need to let rest in the van in the sun for a week 🤣 It was purchased from Lowe's not sure if it's the plant this batch came from but it failed. Also the SW close by only has the synthetic based shellac which is wb. They also don't have a clue about any of their own products, so I left.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.


That's a Cali product and it's awesome!


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Fixall Grabber primer is the BEST bonding primer there is! Alkyd, latex, or shellac based. I've done adhesion tests on all of them at 24 hours, 7 days, and 30 days on alkyd gloss paint, gloss alkyd urethane, glazed tile, glass, Formica and the Fixal beats them all hands down. Nothing comes close except UMA. They are in fact both UMA acrylics. In fact, on my glass test panel after 30 days i had to use a stripper to get the Fixall off of the the glass. ALL the others scraped off with a stiff putty knife rather easily. Get it, Use it, Love it, Never go back to what you were using. That simple.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> That's a Cali product and it's awesome!



he meant ppg gripper
https://www.ppgpaints.com/products/...terior-paint/gripper-interior-exterior-primer


Similar product to aqualock


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> he meant ppg gripper
> https://www.ppgpaints.com/products/...terior-paint/gripper-interior-exterior-primer
> 
> 
> Similar product to aqualock


I've used Gripper primer for years. It's labelled under the Dulux line in Canada.

It's just not the best bonding primer over Oak cabinets with oil-based clear coats. It does stop tannin bleed which I use a lot for exteriors.

https://www.dulux.ca/ppg/dulux/media/tds/60000-dulux-gripper_tds.pdf?ext=.pdf


----------



## gamby (Feb 29, 2008)

pintsizedpainter1 said:


> I read through a lot of threads, but still looking for more opinions. I will be changing over stained trim to paint in an entire home. What I would like to do is least amount of sanding (who doesn't). I normally would sand, use oil primer, sand, paint with oil. I am skipping the oil and want to change to Latex finish as oil is fading away around here. Oil primer is my go too, but I'm curious if anyone has had good results with a wb bonding primer? I did a test run on some base and a couple window sills using oil-based cover stain after sanding down the clear. . After 24 hrs of cure time I attempted to sand but not thrilled with the adhesion. Never had this issue with oil after sanding first. I know water-based has come a long way. I have few options close by...Ace Hardware with hardly any BM material, SW and Lowes (can not stand Valspar). Anyone have good experience with wb bonding primer over varnished trim with or without sanding?


Just a big no for WB primers over old varnished trim. I have been hoping for a WB primer forever and have been disappointed every one used so go with oil primer and save yourself the disappointment.


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

California's Grip Coat is [email protected]%&ing awesome. It is the only bonding primer I use. I made a video of myself trying to remove it from poly with a mini flat bar. I had to use a lot of preasure to scratch it off. It is now under the Fixall label if you cannot find as a California product.

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gymschu said:


> I like SW multi-purpose and have recently experimented with Zinsser's BONDZ. I was pretty impressed. I used the BONDZ on old varnished trim (after sanding) and it bonded very nicely so I may used it again. I also bought a quart of GRIPPER to see how it does. I believe it's a PPG product. Fixall (not sure of the parent company) also makes a nice bonding primer.


Fixall is a California Paint product. 

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Fixall Grabber primer is the BEST bonding primer there is! Alkyd, latex, or shellac based. I've done adhesion tests on all of them at 24 hours, 7 days, and 30 days on alkyd gloss paint, gloss alkyd urethane, glazed tile, glass, Formica and the Fixal beats them all hands down. Nothing comes close except UMA. They are in fact both UMA acrylics. In fact, on my glass test panel after 30 days i had to use a stripper to get the Fixall off of the the glass. ALL the others scraped off with a stiff putty knife rather easily. Get it, Use it, Love it, Never go back to what you were using. That simple.


Is this Grip Coat with another name?

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

gamby said:


> Just a big no for WB primers over old varnished trim. I have been hoping for a WB primer forever and have been disappointed every one used so go with oil primer and save yourself the disappointment.


Have you tried INSLX Stix? It bonds better than any oil primer I've ever tried.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


----------



## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> California's Grip Coat is [email protected]%&ing awesome. It is the only bonding primer I use. I made a video of myself trying to remove it from poly with a mini flat bar. I had to use a lot of preasure to scratch it off. It is now under the Fixall label if you cannot find as a California product.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


It is actually the only WB primer I have used on glass that really sticks!!!


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gymschu said:


> It is actually the only WB primer I have used on glass that really sticks!!!


My California store guy painted glass to show one of his customers how good it is.

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


----------



## Peters Painting (May 13, 2019)

I imagine you likely used a liquid deglosser as well as sanding to have a good base to adhere to with whatever primer used. I use 123 for most projects and bullseye shellac for any wood that's bleeding tannin. For spraying cabinets I've had great success using Bin Shellac primer and 2 coats of PPG Breakthrough enamel. The Bin dries quickly as well as the PPG and flows nicely for a hard, durable finish.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 123 is just a mediocre primer at best, its meant to be a 'do it all' price point product.
> 
> 
> 
> Just be aware the bonding primers like Stix or UMA have zero stain blocking ability.



Either does 123. But in a number of cases, they've proven to be good bonding primers.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> My California store guy painted glass to show one of his customers how good it is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


I did an adhesion test with Gripcoat on a piece of glass. Played hell getting that glass clean. Had to drench it with denatured alcohol and scrape the crap out of it to get it off. I painted a piece of Formica with it and several competitive products (123, Stix, Glidden Gripper), put the Formica piece on my counter, and after 90 days of having everything i sold swiped across it the Gripcoat was the only one that wasn't scratched all to hell. You couldn't get that stuff to come loose with a screwdriver, yet the other primers would scrape off with your fingernail.

And to alleviate any confusion, California is only packaging that product under the Fixall label. I have had it come in being labelled "Grabber bonding primer" and "Gripcoat bonding primer", but i don't know if they are going to keep the "Gripcoat" name on it anymore. The item number is F50700. And yes, it is the exact same product as the California branded "Gripcoat". They (ICP, The parent company) has just done a sku reduction of product lines that were exact duplicates.


----------

