# What is up with these ceilings??



## FreshyPaintsPVD (Oct 28, 2020)

Good people of paint talk! Heya how are yous?! I’ve been lurking a longish time, not much for posting but I’ve come across something the other day requiring some inquisition. Figured it would be a good time to pop up and engage. I’ve gotten a ton of useful knowledge outta here. Been painting around about 10 years all with the same company and just started off on my own about a year and a half ago. I learned a lot over my time at my old gig but only through higher end interiors which never really presented the same kind of issues I’ve been getting. Reckon that’s a just a different tax bracket type of thing lol. Any how, I went out to look at a job the other day and I wanted get a idea if I’m on track with what is needed here...
















Looks like oil??? I’m not sure wth is going on here but my approach would be to knock down all of the failing paint, bin spray or killz any of the mold or water staining, patch up as needed, loxon primer, whack it with new ceiling. What do y’all think?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

First off, I'd tell the customer that unless they get a fan/vent installed in there it's just going to happen again. From the looks of things they need a good one. I have no idea how people let things get this far without thinking that something is wrong and doing something about it.

Your approach seems reasonable. I hate skimming stuff like that. Chunks just keep falling off as you go and getting into your mud.

Tell the damn kids to limit their time in the shower!


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

You may want to confirm whether the walls are Calcimine or not? We do not have a lot of experience with them regionally, but I know other PT members have come across them in the past. I believe Gardz is considered an acceptable sealer.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Top coat with Zinsser Perma-white. It'll stand up to the moisture. Allow for 3 solid coats.


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## FreshyPaintsPVD (Oct 28, 2020)

Thanks guys! Much appreciated.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The paint is fracturing like an oil base would. All it takes is one fracture to begin the "under-cutting" process.

As far as cause, it could be a number of things. For example: Improper ventilation, insulation issues, improper paint, improper mud and coating application, etc.

The easiest remedy would be to scrape all of the loose paint, lightly abrade the surface, remove dust and debris, apply a water borne primer (followed with skim coat and primer), and top coat with a waterborne finish. The only time you would need a shellac, or oil base primer is if water stains appeared.

Note: If upon scraping, the drywall paper surface is damaged to a significant level, I would recommend GARDZ as a full coat treatment.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> The only time you would need a shellac, or oil base primer is if water stains appeared.


interesting, i thought a coat with a strong primer would help "seal" the ugliness but i guess youre not really blocking anything is that correct


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Vylum said:


> interesting, i thought a coat with a strong primer would help "seal" the ugliness but i guess youre not really blocking anything is that correct


"strong primer" isn't a thing. There are stain blocking primers, bonding primers, etc... Some primers do a lot of things, some are merely to help seal fresh drywall. 

Water-based stain blocking primers are always worth a shot, to avoid chemicals, but they aren't as good at blocking stains as oil or shellac.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

Masterwork said:


> "strong primer" isn't a thing. There are stain blocking primers, bonding primers, etc... Some primers do a lot of things, some are merely to help seal fresh drywall.
> 
> Water-based stain blocking primers are always worth a shot, to avoid chemicals, but they aren't as good at blocking stains as oil or shellac.


i know, just lazy wording. ill be more clear next time


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## FreshyPaintsPVD (Oct 28, 2020)

CApainter said:


> The paint is fracturing like an oil base would. All it takes is one fracture to begin the "under-cutting" process.


Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn’t something only turn into the ol’ alligator scale if it was top coated with oil?? Is it even commonplace to paint a bathroom ceiling with straight up oil paint?? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Then again, I do not consider myself a veteran painter with that bundle of knowledge.


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## FreshyPaintsPVD (Oct 28, 2020)

Masterwork said:


> "strong primer" isn't a thing. There are stain blocking primers, bonding primers, etc... Some primers do a lot of things, some are merely to help seal fresh drywall.


Idk. I reckon there is truth in the saying that your paint job is only as good as your primer. Gotta mean something, no? There are some gnarly strong primers out there at least far better than others.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

FreshyPaintsPVD said:


> Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn’t something only turn into the ol’ alligator scale if it was top coated with oil?? Is it even commonplace to paint a bathroom ceiling with straight up oil paint?? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Then again, I do not consider myself a veteran painter with that bundle of knowledge.


Depends on the age of the place for the most part. There was a point where you didn't have a choice. You could test for oil, if you can find a spot that's stable enough. If it is oil, I'd hit it with STIX or some bonding primer after the scraping/sanding/dusting, etc. If you get stain bleed, spot it with oil or shellac. Mud/sand until it looks good then hit it with a water base primer and top coat.

First of all, personally I'd tell them I wouldn't even start things until they got a vent fan installed and I wouldn't budge on this issue. If they've owned the place for a while, they're procrastinators and will wait until it starts failing again. Then, you're back at square one. If there's one there, hold a single piece of toilet paper up to it. If it sticks to the fan cover it's moving air and doing it's job. If not, there's a problem with it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

As others have already posted good solutions, won't chime in on that count.

As for ventilation, not only a good fan, (Them; "But we have a window!" Me; "Uh, Yeah, that's not adequate - especially if you forget to open it."), but also have them strongly consider installing one of the digital timer switches for it. That way they will actually be inclined to turn it on for an adequate amount of time without the risk of forgetting about it and having it run all day.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The timers are a great idea. That way hopefully people won't just walk out of the bathroom after a half hour long shower and shut off the fan and light at the same time. Also beneficial for those moments when the 'air quality' in the bathroom is significantly compromised and it might need to run for a smidge longer than a dash until it is once again breathable.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is when people wire the fan so that it comes on when the light comes on. I'm sure that people do it so their kids won't not turn the fan on when they're having a shower or 'otherwise', but nothing sucks more than spending a good part of a day painting a bathroom with that thing blaring away in the back ground.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> The timers are a great idea. That way hopefully people won't just walk out of the bathroom after a half hour long shower and shut off the fan and light at the same time. Also beneficial for those moments when the 'air quality' in the bathroom is significantly compromised and it might need to run for a smidge longer than a dash until it is once again breathable.


When he was still at home our son primarily used the downstairs bathroom. He was great about turning on the fan but then we'd come home in the afternoon and find it still running. Installed the digital timers (takes the place of a rectangular switch - and if you are electrically inclined enough to swap out a light switch then you can put in one of these) and have used them in all our bathrooms ever since.

I never stopped beating the drum about how great they were for every customer I did painting for in a bathroom. Especially if they were having excessive moisture issues.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

IDK if it's feasible given the space, in your skill set or in the client's budget, but when I see stuff that bad I send pics to the boss man and say if they want this to look really nice, it ought to get 1/4" sheetrock overtop. Just start fresh. If that was going to happen I would still give it a quick scrape-down for the loose stuff and de-mold/mildew it before sheetrock.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Scrape it down, Gardz entire surface, skim coat, prime and paint.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

FreshyPaintsPVD said:


> Idk. I reckon there is truth in the saying that your paint job is only as good as your primer. Gotta mean something, no? There are some gnarly strong primers out there at least far better than others.


I agree. Compare Fresh Start 046 to Zinsser Bullseye 1-2-3 and I guarantee that Fresh Start 046 is "stronger" in every way, if it's coverage, adhesion, stain blocking, etc. There's still a time and place for 1-2-3 sometimes based on budget, what you're doing (bare drywall or a skim coat in a dry area) but 046 Fresh Start would be way stronger.

For what it's worth, even MPI basically agrees. 

MPI # 17 Interior bonding WB primers.
MPI # 50 Interior normal WB primers.
MPI # 137 Interior stain blocking WB primers.

Might be some disagreement on the lists from people here, but even MPI basically says that some primers are "stronger" than others, but some primers do all 3 lists no problem.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

MPI did include Zinsser 123 on their list of recommended waterbase primers.

The reason I recommend Zinsser 123, is that for an all purpose waterborne interior/exterior bonding primer, it is more readily available than any of the others because just about every hardware and paint store in the country carries it. It's certainly not the premium of primers, but it is a worthy mule non the less.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

FreshyPaintsPVD said:


> Good people of paint talk! Heya how are yous?! I’ve been lurking a longish time, not much for posting but I’ve come across something the other day requiring some inquisition. Figured it would be a good time to pop up and engage. I’ve gotten a ton of useful knowledge outta here. Been painting around about 10 years all with the same company and just started off on my own about a year and a half ago. I learned a lot over my time at my old gig but only through higher end interiors which never really presented the same kind of issues I’ve been getting. Reckon that’s a just a different tax bracket type of thing lol. Any how, I went out to look at a job the other day and I wanted get a idea if I’m on track with what is needed here...
> View attachment 112004
> 
> View attachment 112005
> ...


With all due respect, it would be good, since you already know how to post photos and write, even in your local colloquial dialect, if you could not assume as much as you seem to as far as how much we here at Paint Talk understand what your problem is and how you are trying to correct such problems. From what I have seen of your photos it appears to me that you are showing the ceiling of a bathroom. More specifically, it looks to me like hardware attached to a ceiling that holds shower curtains up. It also appears to show cracking and peeling paint. I don't see any info on what part of the globe this ceiling is located on except for your y'all dialect pointing me to somewhere in the southern US. 

I would be interested in the location, geographically-wise, of the house you are speaking about as well as the age of the house, whether there is plaster or drywall, is there a fan, all kinds of stuff to accurately describe what you are trying to do with the materials you are working with and on.

I am currently trying to work up an estimate on a painting job in a high rise in Chicago that involves water damage in the bathroom ceiling. I advised the owner to check with the building engineers to find out why there is water damage on the ceiling BEFORE I do any work on it. She has put in this request for this coming Monday.

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

futtyos said:


> With all due respect, it would be good, since you already know how to post photos and write, even in your local colloquial dialect, if you could not assume as much as you seem to as far as how much we here at Paint Talk understand what your problem is and how you are trying to correct such problems. From what I have seen of your photos it appears to me that you are showing the ceiling of a bathroom. More specifically, it looks to me like hardware attached to a ceiling that holds shower curtains up. It also appears to show cracking and peeling paint. I don't see any info on what part of the globe this ceiling is located on except for your y'all dialect pointing me to somewhere in the southern US.
> 
> I would be interested in the location, geographically-wise, of the house you are speaking about as well as the age of the house, whether there is plaster or drywall, is there a fan, all kinds of stuff to accurately describe what you are trying to do with the materials you are working with and on.
> 
> ...


futtyos - Haven't heard much from you in awhile. Was it my post in another thread where I said I typically only use primer for specific problem areas that summoned you?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I'm going to make a couple of guesses here. Given the ceiling appears to have a transition from flat to sloping, the room has knee walls.....the ceiling is in fact within inches of the exterior roof deck (especially the sloping portion). Very little air circulation above that type of ceiling; and in the winter that ceiling probably is well below ambient room temp. due to poor insulation. Both factors are a perfect set up for trapping "shower fog" and condensation, respectively.

My second guess is that you live in PA coal country, a climate that exacerbates the condensation factor in the winter. The "yous" and "heya" gave that one away....heyna'???

Some good suggestions in the thread on how to handle the repaint, but I'd be hesitant to guarantee the work. Even with a fan installed. Achieving a lasting product might be tough if the guess in my first paragraph is correct. The limited amount of air space (could be as little as 4" in older buildings) makes the prospects of the space above the ceiling being properly insulated or having adequate air flow unlikely. The perfect setup for failure....


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## 54pontiac (Jan 7, 2014)

I always assumed that peeling like that was indicative of latex over oil. This is common in older houses where they started with an oil layer years ago. Inevitably someone just slaps latex over it at some point. The latex never truly bonds and over time, especially with moisture issues, it will just come apart like that. I would also scrape and prime as advised above. And recommend a fan.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Wildbill7145 said:


> One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is when people wire the fan so that it comes on when the light comes on. I'm sure that people do it so their kids won't not turn the fan on when they're having a shower or 'otherwise', but nothing sucks more than spending a good part of a day painting a bathroom with that thing blaring away in the back ground.


 I know this is nine days later, but one reason the fan may be wired like that is if its an afterthought. I once installed a fan in a house we were renting, and totally wanted to wire in a timer, or at least its own switch, but I would have had to tear into walls to run more wiring, so I simply tapped into the wiring of the light to power the fan. Actually, I DID cut a couple holes in the wall to try to wire its own switch, before I realized that theres no power that actually runs to the lightswitch, just a common lead. Anyway, thats why. If you dont want to listen to a fan, you should be able to unplug it in the ceiling.


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