# Oil vs Water based stains for dipping cedar shakes



## piperzz (Mar 22, 2015)

Hello All,
I am new to the forum. 
So I just landed my first major job to launch my long awaited painting business.
The house I am doing is a 25,000 sq. ft. home primarily with cedar shake siding.
What is the recommendation for what kind of stain to use? What are the major differences between using an oil based stain compared to a water based one?

Also, what is the recommendation for how many times they should be dipped.
I was thinking twice on the ground and one more after they are hung.

Thank you


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Your first major job as a contractor is a 25000 SF house? Jiminey Christmas! 
I prefer TWP. has anti rot additives. Best out there imo Oil based.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I can't think of anyone who'd hire a brand new painting contractor to do their 25k home with no game plan, so I'm guessing you were hired by a GC. When I first started my biz, I got taken advantage of a lot by builders and GC's cuz I was hungry and just wanted to get my foot in the door. I had no real understanding of my numbers, so I was cheap, and GC's pounce on these kinds of painters. You can show em what you got in the hopes that they'll keep their promises by throwing you tons of future work, but the minute you realize you're working for peanuts and decide you need to charge more, they're off looking for another green painter. 

Sorry this is off on a tangent and even sorrier I'm not gonna answer your question, but no good comes from starting your business on a 25,000 sq ft home. It will bury you. Not trying to be rude or disrespectful. You could be the best painter or the best business man in the world, but until you've spent time wearing both hats simultaneously, I think it's best to start on smaller jobs. Learn your production rates, figure out your expenses and overhead so you know what to charge. Walk before run and run before fly. 

Hope it works out for you though and hope I'm wrong.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

A monster house for your first job. We took on some monsters ourselves when we first started this company but I have over 20 yrs experience.

How long have you been painting if you don't mind me asking?

Brushing or Spraying?

Today's Waterborne stuff is pretty dang good. Noting in my mind beast oil.

Dipping them twice before installing is what we do or others around here do, we then spray a 3rd coat after they are installed.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I just noticed you made 2 threads for this topic.


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## piperzz (Mar 22, 2015)

To answer your concerns, painting is not new to me.
The reason that I got this massive job to begin with is because the one and only premier painter that they tried to get for this job was my boss of 18 years, he just isn't taking on big projects anymore. Luckily I have been doing all of the high end residentials in the area with him, and I have a lot of experience with this type of work, it is all I have ever done.
I am not asking my questions about shingles with no experience. I am just curious to pick the brains of painters who have used different methods to see what has worked for them in the past. I was very lucky to have worked and learned from the best painter that I have known, however, what comes with that is always using the same products and methods.
As I am going off on my own, I think that it is beneficial for me to hear about all of the information and options from other professionals like yourselves.
I am a 36 years old and have been doing the best of this best kind of work for a very long time. There is nothing green about this situation besides the fact that I have gone on my own. I am very good at what I do.
I hope to be able to talk more about products and experiences as this project progresses.
Thanks, 
~N


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## piperzz (Mar 22, 2015)

cdpainting said:


> A monster house for your first job. We took on some monsters ourselves when we first started this company but I have over 20 yrs experience.
> 
> How long have you been painting if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> ...


As I just posted below, I have been doing these monster houses as the lead painter of another company for the better part of 18 years. 
I will be brushing everything, the contractor who is building this house actually doesn't allow any spraying at all, which is actually fine with me, I prefer brushing.
I always had used waterborne stain, i am planning on dipping them twice and brushing on the 3rd coat. 
I have never used oil for cedar shakes, I am curious if they will absorb less if I use Oil


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Your going to paint a 12,000 square foot house with a brush? Wow, that's pretty amazing. No wonder its gonna take three years. 

Please post some pics when you get going. Sounds like a cool project.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Something you'll need to consider with your dipping strategy is the potential for over application. (If you plan to stay within product specifications). Most semi-trans stains and sealers I'm familiar with, both oil and water based, are only designed for two coats max. 

With many semi-trans systems the second coat must be applied within specific time frames. Some go on wet on wet for example, and re-application after the stain has dried is not recommended. Others have a longer recoat window but still need to be second coated before the first coat cures completely. For example the Woodscapes WB semi-trans needs to be recoated within 30 days. Your dipped shingles would need to be installed and recoated within that time frame to stay within spec. 

On such a large, high profile project I would think you would want to ensure the products you apply will be eligible for warranty. 

I know lots of painters ignore spec with semi-trans. Seen lots of stain jobs where they piled up semi-trans to where it looked like a film forming product. Most of them really aren't designed to be applied in this manner, and even though it can look sweet at first, the end result is usually catastrophic failure. 

You might look at Sikkens products. The color choices are limited, and they are mostly dark and on the orangeish side, but the Sikkens 123 system is actually designed for three coats (without strict timelines) and can last a long time on cedar. Another option might be Transformation by Sashco. They have some high quality two coat (with optional clear coat) systems that work well.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Dipping 12k square of shingles is not a huge first job. Its a job I would show an apprentice and put them to work on. I once was that teenager dipping shakes all day in the hot sun. Thats back when oil was oil. 

Oil will penetrate a lot more than acrylic stain. I too would use TWP 100 if available in your state Just remember to do two wet on wet coats. If not penetrating oil stain can form a film which you don't want.


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## piperzz (Mar 22, 2015)

cdpainting said:


> I just noticed you made 2 threads for this topic.


i did, i feel i posted my first post in the wrong spot and am not sure how to delete it, eek!


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## piperzz (Mar 22, 2015)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I can't think of anyone who'd hire a brand new painting contractor to do their 25k home with no game plan, so I'm guessing you were hired by a GC. When I first started my biz, I got taken advantage of a lot by builders and GC's cuz I was hungry and just wanted to get my foot in the door. I had no real understanding of my numbers, so I was cheap, and GC's pounce on these kinds of painters. You can show em what you got in the hopes that they'll keep their promises by throwing you tons of future work, but the minute you realize you're working for peanuts and decide you need to charge more, they're off looking for another green painter.
> 
> Sorry this is off on a tangent and even sorrier I'm not gonna answer your question, but no good comes from starting your business on a 25,000 sq ft home. It will bury you. Not trying to be rude or disrespectful. You could be the best painter or the best business man in the world, but until you've spent time wearing both hats simultaneously, I think it's best to start on smaller jobs. Learn your production rates, figure out your expenses and overhead so you know what to charge. Walk before run and run before fly.
> 
> Hope it works out for you though and hope I'm wrong.




I hope you are wrong too. It is a LOT to take on for my first major project and believe me, I am stressed about it. However, getting this opportunity to be paid well, and by time and material vs. a bid and have consistent interior/exterior work for a few years which will allow me to build my business and get all of the tools I will ever need by the end of it.... it was just too hard too pass up, I feel most of us would had done the same. I understand that I may learn the hard way, but I take my work very seriously, have high standards and am good at what I do. I guess I am hitting the ground running.I have already learned a great deal on the business side of things and I know there is a lot more to come.
I really do appreciate you honesty. I will keep the forum posted with my project as it progresses.
~cheers


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

*Exterior wood finishes*

The key to optimal performance of "penetrating" exterior wood finishes is reaching/obtaining the saturation point of the specific product. Especially true of products like TWP, and numerous others. Excessive application/building a film will do more harm than good.

If you are dipping shingles, a 15-20 minute soak time will allow complete penetration throughout the woods cellular structure. Pulling the shingles and allowing to sit 15 minutes and re-dipping would be a bonus.

Any application after dry will only complicate future maintenance. You can verify this with Amteco, "makers of TWP". More is not always better.

I have spent a lifetime of R&D, maintained test exposure fields and trained professionals on wood finish application. Understanding the science is everything.

Good luck on your job.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

You can't go wrong with TWP or Armstrong Clark. Those are the top 2 in my opinion. Whether to choose an oil or acrylic will depend upon several factors, with climate & exposure being among the most important. Acrylic resins seem to retain their color longer, while oils are deeper penetrating, more durable, & less prone to peeling or flaking. For shakes to be dipped and then installed, I'd go with oil. Before you decide on an exact product, also consider ease of maintenance in the future to keep them looking good. Some require complete strips, while others only need a good wash followed by a maintenance coat every few years.


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