# Which exterior latex makes you the most money?



## toddcla2002 (Jan 16, 2008)

I am curious as to what exterior paint makes you the most money? Taking into consideration initial costs, application time, coverage etc. My SW sales rep tells me they are beefing up their SW super paint.....I hope so because I have never liked the coverage. I like to use Rodda AC series and also have access to Parker Paint, Kelly Moore and Benjamin Moore. 

So what exterior paint are you able to sell with either one or two coats, applies well and is easy to sell? I'm sure Duration is great but it covers half as much, costs twice as much per gallon therefore the paint costs goes up four fold and then it also takes longer to apply. Thank you for your feedback


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Duration here.......no need to explain this one.:thumbsup:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

duration-- It covers better than the rest, painters like it and when a customer sees that it costs over $50 a gallon retail they understand that its quality.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Pratt&Lambert Accolade or Redseal - take your pick.


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

I'd also have to say duration. The only reason it made me the most money is because it's the paint I used the most! It's an absolutely amazing product. And honestly, the $45/gal I was paying was worth it since coverage was amazing and it formed such an impermiable result.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

durations here, I have gone back to jobs close to five years old and they still look like gold:thumbsup:


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

todd,
I can't speak to Duration other than it is really good material. I think the guys were heading in the right direction in answering your "makes you the most $$" question. I would answer that in 2 ways.....
1. You make a living @ point of application. That's were you make your $$. You don't really make it in prep or bidding. While those things certainly matter, at the end of the day application of the material is were you need it to be "easy".
2. No other manufacturer to my knowledge offers the standard color selection that we do. 1240 & 1245 are 2 of the best architectural premium coatings out there. Flat and Lowsheen respectively. The major benefit to a repaint specialist is the opportunity to return unopened cans for full credit. So stay on the job w/ a few extra gallons and finish the job, instead of running to the store to get 1 more gallon.

You can take a page from the book of one of my customers.... He offers a 5% discount to his customers who choose KM standard colors for his ext. repaints. BTW, those products cover great!

Go to the Bellingham store and get in contact w/ your rep there. He/she will be very happy to talk w/ you. Thanks for your business Todd.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

YubaPaintPro said:


> todd,
> _1. You make a living @ point of application. That's were you make your $$. You don't really make it in prep or bidding. While those things certainly matter, at the end of the day application of the material is were you need it to be "easy"._
> 
> Actually, the application of paint *is* the easiest part of the job. We spend more time prepping initially and in between coats by far than we do applying paint. We also spend more time trying to dial in our systems and processes for prep than any other aspect of our field operation.
> ...


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## AALory (Mar 6, 2008)

I have to agree with Scott's view. I never looked on a product as a money maker. The strength of my contract plus the efficiency and skill with which I complete the work equals my bread and butter. The product must be reputable and reliable of course. Moorglo is my choice most often.
Adam


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Products that make you money? Are you kidding me? Yeah - sure, if a paint doubled up as a primer and looked as good as two coats all with one application - and no jobs peeled - sure that would make me money - but then all these other painting contractors that are about as useful as month old dirty dish towels would lower the pricing to 'compete' If everyone else is a total moron - and I am the only one with the advanced products - then sure it's plausible. But these retards that I am forced to compete with are constantly going to customers lowering and lowering and lowering their price - because they have no sales skills. Marketing and advertizing is what makes me money, then service, then prep, then perhaps last is the product.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Plain! Are you having a bad day? :lol:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Gotta go with Duration. :thumbup: 

Interior has the same coverage as the rest, and exterior has slightly less coverage but also acts as a primer & alot of times covers in one coat resulting in less product & time needed.

The cost is higher, but it doesn't come out of my pocket & depending on the job it could save on the overall costs.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

toddcla2002 said:


> I am curious as to what exterior paint makes you the most money? Taking into consideration initial costs, application time, coverage etc. My SW sales rep tells me they are beefing up their SW super paint.....I hope so because I have never liked the coverage. I like to use Rodda AC series and also have access to Parker Paint, Kelly Moore and Benjamin Moore.
> 
> So what exterior paint are you able to sell with either one or two coats, applies well and is easy to sell? I'm sure Duration is great but it covers half as much, costs twice as much per gallon therefore the paint costs goes up four fold and then it also takes longer to apply. Thank you for your feedback


I actually sell a longer warranty, when using durations. It is the clients chose, the mark up on the products are the same %. I will also use a lesser product and give a lesser warranty. Really at $42 a gallon verse $25 a gallon, with about a average exterior taking 14 gallons their is only a 240 dollar difference, and the client gets to choose. most of the time they go with top of the line. But its nice to have the option.

dave mac


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

Used to be superpaint, now it's duration.

Even with my discounts, sw is just going crazy on prices, including superpaint.


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Actually, the application of paint *is* the easiest part of the job. We spend more time prepping initially and in between coats by far than we do applying paint. We also spend more time trying to dial in our systems and processes for prep than any other aspect of our field operation.


Scott, I hope I did not misrepresent myself. I absolutely understand that the actual "application" of material is the easiest/fastest part of your process. I think prep is so crucial and it shows attention to detail/professionalism or it doesn't. I think though that product application and product choice helps separate the men from the boys.

Most pro's use pro tools for application. How many of you have plastic handled brushes that you "go to" for that critical cut in? Likely, none. You grab your unfinished wood handled Purdy/Wooster/Carona. The trusted tool. That is all I meant by that. At KM, we love to service and continue to earn the business of pro's like you guys.

Thanks so much for allowing me to try and clear that up.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

toddcla2002 said:


> ...I'm sure Duration is great but it covers half as much, costs twice as much per gallon therefore the paint costs goes up four fold and then it also takes longer to apply.


What the heck are you talking about?
I'd say it covers just _as much_, costs a _little_ more per gallon (than other top premium lines), the _paint_ product costs go up around 25% and it covers in one coat (same color) and doesn't take any longer to apply.
I'm not sure "it" makes me any _more_ money than any others, but I spec it for difficult areas as it does well in those situations.

Not everyone likes it though.
It's a bit thick and a bear in direct sunlight.


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## Purdygirl (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with Yuba-Dude about KM's stock colors, they don't call Kelly Moore "the Painter's Paint Store" for nothing. I had to laugh about the "men and boys" comment, I've heard that one before, I just can't figure out where I fit in. 
I'll agree this time with the Moorglo guys. Ben Moore's colors speak for themselves and I have never had a problem with their products or service. I would use more Sherwin Williams and Kelley Moore if they had stores closer to where I live, but up to now it's Benjamin Moore all the way.
I have a lot of older customers that do research on the best paint. They read consumer reports and I've had people request I use Glidden and Behr.. no kidding!!! I've used it all. Made money with all of it.


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## DW Custom Painting (Feb 17, 2008)

Joewho said:


> Used to be superpaint, now it's duration.
> 
> Even with my discounts, sw is just going crazy on prices, including superpaint.


There practically a monopoly:blink:


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

Purdygirl said:


> I had to laugh about the "men and boys" comment, I've heard that one before, I just can't figure out where I fit in.


You are obviously in a "league all your own"!!!! I mean that as a compliment!
Thx for the reply.


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## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

*Slickshift says* _"What the heck are you talking about?
I'd say it covers just __as much, costs a __little more per gallon (than other top premium lines), the __paint product costs go up around 25% and it covers in one coat (same color) and doesn't take any longer to apply."_

Hi everyone, long time lurker - hope I can jump in to this discussion and add some value to the debate. I disagree with some of the assumptions that have been made here... So in the spirit of making a more fair comparison, lets first look at coverage, From SW's Data pages, Duration Ext covers @ 250 - 300 sq/gallon (lets use 275 as an average.) Compared to SuperPaint Ext @ 350 - 400 sq / gallon (take 375 as an average)

So SuperPaint covers 35% better.

As to cost - my Duration Ext paint costs double that of SuperPaint. If yours does not, you are paying too much for SuperPaint, IMO.. But our customers pay for the paint (on a per gallon basis anyway, so lets not harp on this too much yet.) 

As to effort involved, Duration clearly takes longer to apply than SuperPaint (and therefore costs more in person-hours.) There is more brush drag making it harder to put on if brushing, and even when spraying, considering you are supposed to apply it almost twice as thick, (7 mils vs 4,) it just simply takes more time to apply. If no other reason - you are applying the material 75% thicker.

-----------------------------------------
Now - lets look at a couple of these factors together to see the total impact. 

Let's say you are painting 5,000 sq ft of siding. And assume you pay $17.50 for SuperPaint and $35 for Duration

5,000 / 275 = 18.18 AND 5,000 / 375 = 13.13

Duration 18.18 Gallons - Paint cost = $636.30
SuperPaint 13.13 Gallons - Paint cost = $229.78
*
Overall Paint Costs increase by almost 177%

Time required to apply 18.18 gal over 13 gal = 38% - *More paint so it will take 38% longer (simply due to the larger amount of material (not due to any coverage specifications.) 

Don't get me wrong, I push for Duration on almost every home, but I make sure I factor in all of the true costs before I do in the interest of maintaining targeted gross margin %. There IS an impact to Cost of Goods Sold, so make sure you factor them in to your pricing model.*.

Cheers - Jeff



*


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks for the great comparison. Makes me think and I hate that on a holiday. (but I am working so what difference does it make.)


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Sometimes we forget that its not a holiday for everyone....:whistling2:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Just painting around the house. Not working hard.


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## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

delete post


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

br1dge said:


> delete post


 WHO IS YOU??????????


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Hi Jeff
Appreciate the input
But it doesn't seem to work for me
I use the same 350 coverage for whichever paint
Can't say it's hosed me yet
I clearly disagree that "Duration clearly takes longer to apply" than other paints
For your comparison with SuperPaint, I can't say for sure as I don't like SuperPaint so I really try not to use it
I use the same numbers for SP as I would BM's SoftGloss or P's Manor Hall, then add a little extra as I find it a PITA
(I find SuperPaint "difficult to work" the way I want it to...lol)
And here's the kicker...
I only do one coat of Duration (except new const.), all others are two (except good condition maint. coats)
As the "one coat Duration" isn't merely half of a "Two-Coat something else", it's not half the price to the consumer
So unfortunately, this math doesn't work for me



br1dge said:


> Slickshift says "What the heck are you talking about?
> I'd say it covers just as much, costs a little more per gallon (than other top premium lines), the paint product costs go up around 25% and it covers in one coat (same color) and doesn't take any longer to apply."
> 
> Hi everyone, long time lurker - hope I can jump in to this discussion and add some value to the debate. I disagree with some of the assumptions that have been made here... So in the spirit of making a more fair comparison, lets first look at coverage, From SW's Data pages, Duration Ext covers @ 250 - 300 sq/gallon (lets use 275 as an average.) Compared to SuperPaint Ext @ 350 - 400 sq / gallon (take 375 as an average)
> ...


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

br1dge said:


> Let's say you are painting 5,000 sq ft of siding. And assume you pay $17.50 for SuperPaint and $35 for Duration
> 
> 5,000 / 275 = 18.18 AND 5,000 / 375 = 13.13
> 
> ...


Is this a re-paint? If so, you would actually be using 18.18 gallons of Duration or 26.66 gallons of SuperPaint. Your man hours for the SuperPaint would be almost double what they would be if using Duration.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

A question for duration users. Are you selling your duration jobs as a one coat repaint or two? Does your warranty stay the same with one coat application?


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## DW Custom Painting (Feb 17, 2008)

br1dge said:


> *Slickshift says* _"What the heck are you talking about?
> I'd say it covers just __as much, costs a __little more per gallon (than other top premium lines), the __paint product costs go up around 25% and it covers in one coat (same color) and doesn't take any longer to apply."_
> 
> Hi everyone, long time lurker - hope I can jump in to this discussion and add some value to the debate. I disagree with some of the assumptions that have been made here... So in the spirit of making a more fair comparison, lets first look at coverage, From SW's Data pages, Duration Ext covers @ 250 - 300 sq/gallon (lets use 275 as an average.) Compared to SuperPaint Ext @ 350 - 400 sq / gallon (take 375 as an average)
> ...


WOW


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## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

Slick - First of all, let me know if we should spawn this off in a new thread. I thought I had read you thought superpaint was "super" - musta been someone else... In that case, I can see how you might not buy in to my rambling.. 

But I think we are all missing something fairly important here; coverage rates, (assuming the material is being applied properly,) is not something that should vary from painter to painter for a given paint. As I understand it anyway, it's coverage is a function of its chemical makeup. According to Wolverine's Math (who seems to really know his shyte,) :notworthy: Duration Ext @ 41% solids and a 2.8 dry mils would cover 234.87 sq ft / gallon. Duration Spec Sheet Link Here. SuperPaint, on the other hand, @ 36% solids and at 1.6 mils dry would cover 360.9 sq ft / gallon. SuperPaint Spec Sheet Link Here. If you are getting more or less, you just aren't putting it on the right thickness. It also makes sense that Duration "covers better in one coat," right - because you are putting it on 90% thicker. But it can't do so *while* covering a larger surface area. Its just not physically possible.

And what we have to consider, regardless of which paint is application. Remember - when we spray, we are only get 65% transfer efficiency, meaning that 35% of the paint never makes it to the substrate! 


To JMCP - I respectfully disagree with your assertion - let me tell you why. First, in almost all cases, the second coat does not take 2x the paint, and applying the 2nd coat certainly does not take 2X the labor as the first. Probably more like 65% of each - but even so - I do 99% re-paints, and very very rarely do I have to apply more than one coat of SP to cover. Sure, we are probably applying it a bit heavier in more extreme cases, but usually it is great.

I have learned so much from you guys - I appreciate a place to come and be able to toss this stuff around and all improve our understanding of this "simple," idea of painting..


br1dge


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

br1dge said:


> It also makes sense that Duration "covers better in one coat," right - because you are putting it on 90% thicker. But it can't do so *while* covering a larger surface area. Its just not physically possible.
> 
> _Actually, I think it might be possible. We have used both Duration and SS. I can assure you that if one is calculated in ones effort to not work in direct sunlight, and one avails oneself to the best possible logistical strategies, and one takes advantage of paint conditioners, one can spread Duration just fine at a diligent pace. Also, lets face it, on exterior, Duration is most usually a trim paint. Fascia and corner boards are the largest exposed l.f. of trim surface. Soffet is in the shade. Cant keep it wet? Somethings wrong with your approach._
> 
> ...


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

br1dge said:


> To JMCP - I respectfully disagree with your assertion - let me tell you why. First, in almost all cases, the second coat does not take 2x the paint, and applying the 2nd coat certainly does not take 2X the labor as the first. Probably more like 65% of each - but even so - I do 99% re-paints, and very very rarely do I have to apply more than one coat of SP to cover. Sure, we are probably applying it a bit heavier in more extreme cases, but usually it is great.


You're absolutely correct. However if we're going by product specs here & proper application...

Your second coat should be similar to your first coat. The reason why it isn't, is we're blowing through it focusing on the light spots which means we're not truely putting on 2 coats. If we use proper application, the second coat should be barely less than the first, especially on a re-paint that's not so porous. Now to have the proper thickness as per the specs, you would need two full proper coats of Superpaint per 1 full coat of Duration as shown here and here.

So assuming we're doing a proper paint job here, and moving our equipment around that 5,000 sq ft of siding, I would think it would take very colse to twice the amount of time to do the 2 coats Superpaints data sheet says to use vs the 1 coat Durations data sheets say to use. Ofcourse this is painting only here, not the opening prep out. We all have our own opinions though & I'm kinda just busting your b*lls. :thumbup:


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## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

well said... lol

:thumbsup:


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## welovepainting (May 13, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Products that make you money? Are you kidding me? Yeah - sure, if a paint doubled up as a primer and looked as good as two coats all with one application - and no jobs peeled - sure that would make me money - but then all these other painting contractors that are about as useful as month old dirty dish towels would lower the pricing to 'compete' If everyone else is a total moron - and I am the only one with the advanced products - then sure it's plausible. But these retards that I am forced to compete with are constantly going to customers lowering and lowering and lowering their price - because they have no sales skills. Marketing and advertizing is what makes me money, then service, then prep, then perhaps last is the product.


 
So are you saying you can care less what the top coat is? Ever used DutchBoy ?


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## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

As to application techniques, vermontpainter.. What I was suggesting is that if the coverage specs of a paint requires more gallons to be applied (in the case of Duration vs SS,) then it takes longer, if for no other reason that you are shooting more material. This assumes technique, logistical planning, etc are equal between the 2 paints.

I think I am missing something, because neither of the following things make any sense to me.. "if we are honest contractors," and "exterior paints are not designed to be sprayed." 

consider myself to be a very honest contractor, and my insurance company knows, but could care less whether I spray or brush. And secondly, these coatings we are discussing are indeed specifically and purposefully engineered, designed, and marketed to be sprayed. In fact I bet most SW reps would tell you that spraying is the optimal and preferred method, particularly for applications such as soffit and fascia.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bridge

I can see that the Duration v. Superpaint debate is really important to you, as all 5 of your posts on painttalk are on this thread. 

My insurance agent, representing a major national provider, will not cover exterior spraying. He says that the insurance companies buy way too many car paint jobs as a result of exterior spraying. I guess thats where the lost 35% ends up sometimes. I am fine with not being covered for it, as I wouldnt spray exterior anyways. If your agent is ok with it, check your policy declarations to make sure you are really covered for it. 

Check out more of the threads here, theres really alot more interesting stuff going on out here than whatever point it is that you are laboring to make on this thread.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Spraying is an extra to my insurance. I do not spray exteriors so I do not pay the extra. I could add with a phone call if need be.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK

I hear ya. It seems like something that insurance companies dont like to cover, which makes me think it would be a real struggle to get them to honor a claim if something ever happened. Exterior spraying is a risky business. To me, its not worth the fast dollar I could make doing it. It wouldnt take much to go wrong to end up in a whole pile of problem.

It took me almost 6 months to get our company van covered, rebuilt and back on the road after a tree fell on it. If I have to fight to get them to cover my van, I can only imagine getting them to cover the car that my mist settled on.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

........Has this turned into a exterior spray bashing thread? Usually we are on the same page Scott...but not this time. Our exterior markets might be totally different. I wont even bid a crazy stripping, scrapping peeling jobs. I'd rather walk through Tim's home town naked with a Patriot logo tatooed on my chest. I do mostly homes that are between 5 and 25 years old. I market high end neighborhoods and produce a quality job. No "*BLOW-N-GO"*. Some of us spray correctly and dont like being lumped in with hacks....

First of all ....you have to know how to spray....when to spray and back-brush, spray and back-roll...ect. You must know how to prep appropriatly. You must know when to spray and not too. Dont spray in direct sun. Dont spray around cars...moving or standing. If you spray on a day with 30mph wind you will loose 35% in the air. *BR1DGE - *I'd like too see where you got the stat of 65% - 35%. I'd say more like 90% - 10% if applied properly. Exterior paints are in fact engineered for spraying. Duration in fact is recomened to be sprayed ...at 2000 psi with a 015"-019" tip with no reduction from 35 - 80 degrees. I spray my exteriors. Body only. ...sometimes dental molding and cornerboards. I guarantee I can give better coverage and a higher quality paint job by spraying. I really hate when people assume that if you spray exterior work you are cutting corners or you are applying a lighter coat of paint to the product. Spraying is not a quick get rich quick scheme. You still must prep properly, use proper coverage and still apply the appropriate number of coats quoted, evenly. I can't believe with todays technology in paints and equipment that anyone would brush the side of a house...... 

There is no difference with my insurance rates for "spraying".


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US; I can't believe with todays technology in paints and equipment that anyone would brush the side of a house......
[/quote said:


> NEPS
> 
> You are right that making a generalization is unfair and there are always noteable exceptions. You know that I know the quality of your operation and your commitment to doing the right thing. I'm sure there are many guys out here who spray exteriors properly, and I shouldnt have spoken out of school on that topic.
> 
> And you know me, brushing everything...2 inches at a time. Sometimes its funny to see just how old school I am. :wheelchair:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> NEPS
> 
> You are right that making a generalization is unfair and there are always noteable exceptions. You know that I know the quality of your operation and your commitment to doing the right thing. I'm sure there are many guys out here who spray exteriors properly, and I shouldnt have spoken out of school on that topic.
> 
> And you know me, brushing everything...2 inches at a time. Sometimes its funny to see just how old school I am. :wheelchair:


Sorry for jumping down you throat .....Us young kid just love technology... I'm still waiting for a painting video game!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Sorry for jumping down you throat .....Us young kid just love technology... I'm still waiting for a painting video game!


No problem...you were starting to get too watered down lately so I am glad I could stir you back up!

I have two Titans sitting in the shop that I use maybe twice a year...but believe it or not I want air assisted HVLP in a terrible way!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> No problem...you were starting to get too watered down lately so I am glad I could stir you back up!
> 
> I have two Titans sitting in the shop that I use maybe twice a year...but believe it or not I want air assisted HVLP in a terrible way!


Me too! I really like it......I have a capspray HVLP with the 2.5 gallon pot if your interested.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Me too! I really like it......I have a capspray HVLP with the 2.5 gallon pot if your interested.


I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

*this one ....used a it few times ...no need for it*


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

What didnt you like about it?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I liked it but I really have no need for it. I bought it with the intentions of spraying built-in's and I sprayed a bunch of sashes with it... works nice ..came with a gravity feed can too. The 2 1/2 gallon pot is nice for larger jobs or spraying poly ...what you got to trade????


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

What do you need? 

I have a Titan 440 I could live without.


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## CBCo (Dec 21, 2007)

*Amen!!! You do leave them with the paint and not your sales skills though.*



plainpainter said:


> Products that make you money? Are you kidding me? Yeah - sure, if a paint doubled up as a primer and looked as good as two coats all with one application - and no jobs peeled - sure that would make me money - but then all these other painting contractors that are about as useful as month old dirty dish towels would lower the pricing to 'compete' If everyone else is a total moron - and I am the only one with the advanced products - then sure it's plausible. But these retards that I am forced to compete with are constantly going to customers lowering and lowering and lowering their price - because they have no sales skills. Marketing and advertizing is what makes me money, then service, then prep, then perhaps last is the product.


I want all my clients not to come back to me for a repaint for another 12 years, so I have no all time favorite paint, but just a paint that I know will last. So far my vote is for Sherwin, because I have estimated jobs that were painted 12 years ago with Sherwin on the siding and all they needed an estimate for was repainting the facia. The siding still looked great except for needing a cleaning.


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## flowjo (Apr 25, 2009)

ya sherwin williams products are awsome i also like the manor hall stuff any high quality reputable brand of paint will do just fine i find its more about the tools to be honest.

good tools save you lots of time and headaches but everyone knows that anyways lol


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I like Fortis by Dulux. Love the sheen, and it is just a pretty paint for years. I did a touchup on a house I painted over 2 yrs ago (some repair work due to foundation settling) and it touched up like a dream (south side of house no less).

Only complaint with it is that it doesn't cover but ~250sqft/gal.


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