# "Ruined" level 5 Job.



## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

So... 22 000 sq ft walls and ceiling. Client requested a total glazing of new boards. The crew (14 people at times) did not have a clue how to get it done. They vere going at it with straight mud and a 12 in trowell. I spoke to the foreman about sanding and he assured me he knew what he was doing. 

Now... after the primer, the ugly truth comes out... This job is no good. The taping (corners) suck, the metal corners are really bad. And, the sanding, the whole surface is scarred or not enough sanded so the ceilings and walls look like the ocean.

So other then starting over the whole job over, do you have a suggestion as to what could be done to save the job?

Reason why i'm asking is that i got stuck in something similar and tried to "patch locally" but all the repairs showed a different texture so most walls had to be reglazed.

Any input is appreciated.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Did you prime the entire 22000 sf? 

Wouldn't it be apparent quickly that things weren't going to work?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Why did you prime the whole thing if you knew it wasn't ready?


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Did you prime the entire 22000 sf?
> 
> Wouldn't it be apparent quickly that things weren't going to work?


As I was writing my post I suddenly felt... stoopid.

yes we did prime the whole thing... in a day. It became apparent the second day when the daylight came in as we removed the plastic from the windows.
Touch ups were to be expected but it goes way beyond that now.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

As a paint contractor, I have a lot of my own issues to worry about. A lot :yes: As such, I try not to involve myself with the workmanship of other trades. 

If you just primed a small amount and recognized the problem, then you don't have a problem at all; the taper does. 

Otherwise, I'm not sure.

I see that you did do the whole thing . . . Still, I wouldn't try to solve the problem. Instead, I'd remind all involved whose problem it SHOULD remain.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Why did you prime the whole thing if you knew it wasn't ready?


oh we trusted it was ready enough although not top notch the gc said the surface was sound and ready and they,d come back for minor touch ups.
As i said it seemed ready.And I trusted the plasterer.
The guy came back to do touch ups and made it worst in some cases...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

If the GC said it was ready then I don't see the problem. Back charge and write a change order having the GC sign for the "touch ups" that will have to be re-primed. If that is the whole surface then so be it. Bottom line its the gs's job not yours.

Make sure they tint everything they do from now on so you can spot it.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Over the years I have learned you can not really trust what the GC or Plaster says about the walls being ready. I make it a habit to check every thing before I even take the sprayer or roller set up out. This is the only way you know it is ready, I believe it is well worth the extra hour or 2 to make sure so this doesn't happen, 22,000 sqft is a huge house to have these kind of issues. the GC should have also checked this is not a cheap house to buy or build and sounds like the GC doesn't check work before calling the next trade in. I hope you don't have to eat this. i would charge the GC for the touch ups.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I hope the construction documents didn't include the standard Section 9900. Here's 9900 3(A)1: "Examine all surfaces to see that they are in proper condition to be finished before 
proceeding with the work. Starting work will constitute the painter’s acceptance of 
preceding work and conditions under which finish will be applied and his 
assumption of responsibility for results to be obtained. "

I've seen that bite some painters badly.....

Good luck.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Yea I hadn't thought about what was in the contract he signed. Hope it isn't or he's boned.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Gough said:


> I hope the construction documents didn't include the standard Section 9900. Here's 9900 3(A)1: "Examine all surfaces to see that they are in proper condition to be finished before
> proceeding with the work. Starting work will constitute the painter’s acceptance of
> preceding work and conditions under which finish will be applied and his
> assumption of responsibility for results to be obtained. "
> ...


Nothing can stand in the way of common sense like a well-written contract. 

That said, you're right and I hope he didn't sign one.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is a tough one. A lot of drywall problems really do not show up until you get a good coat of something on them, like primer. And usually the first coat of color shows even more.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> That is a tough one. A lot of drywall problems really do not show up until you get a good coat of something on them, like primer. And usually the first coat of color shows even more.


I'm with Dean on this one. You just can't always tell until it primed, and/or 1st coated. I'd firmly put the ball back in the GC's court, and tell him to call you when its ready for paint.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> That is a tough one. A lot of drywall problems really do not show up until you get a good coat of something on them, like primer. And usually the first coat of color shows even more.


That's a reason we have put some VERY specific language in our contracts along the lines of "application of primer does NOT constitute acceptance of the surface" and, if we're really concerned, something about "in the event of a conflict, the terms of this (sub)contract supersede the terms outlined in Section 9900."


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Our process of painting new drywall goes like this-
the finisher declares the drywall 'ready'
we prime it (first coat usually with the finish)
We declare the drywall primed and ask the finisher to touch up whatever he thinks he needs to. They can do whatever they want to that drywall at that time, anything from nothing to rescimming the whole surface is in their perogative. It's ready to finish when they say it's ready.
When the finisher says his drywall is ready to finish we spot prime his patchwork, whatever extent it is, then finish coat over the whole thing.

If I were the OP I need a touch up from the finisher now. Everything is running fine really. I still owe a spot prime and a finish coat on whatever he gives to me as 'ready'. That's why all NC is bid for three coats. Hopefully the 'second' coat is a quick spot prime but it's not always gonna be.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Make sure they tint everything they do from now on so you can spot it.


Agreed, A lot of times its pretty easy to overlook the smikcoats over one coat of primer. 

Get them to put a small amount of red or black chalk from a chalkline into the mud so they are easy to see.. on that much surface area, it will help him see what he needs to sand and help you see what you need to reprime.


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## oz_painter (Aug 18, 2012)

i never trust what the builder or plasterer tell me, i dont think its hard to run your hand over the plaster work and tell what sort of quality job it is.

either way if i was in your position i would just keep going until someone said something, if you point it out now they might just run back to there office and figure out how to blame you then make you fix it for free. thats my assumption, on the flip side they might actually tell you to come back after they fix it


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm going to ask a stupid question...Did you spray & backroll with a high build primer?? If it's not bad enough to show until you take down plastic then how bad is it?? If it only shows as bad under extreme light then touch up & go. Sounds like allot of bad eyes!

Without seeing some pics it's hard to offer a solution


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm also with Dean on this one, you really can only tell once the primer is on. It gives you a clear picture. I don't do NC much but when I do the GC always has me prime it first then calls back the drywall dude to take care of all the bad spots. Just general procedures. Although I have never had to fool with a level 5 before so maybe that is completely different. 

Pat


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm sorry buddy but it shouldn't have taken 22k sq ft of primer to realize it wasn't a level 5 finish. Upon seeing they wasn't doing it the right way you notify the GC. If he says it's OK then your good to go without worry of your responsibility of the problem. You just can't say I couldn't see the problem cause of plastic on the windows. A true level 5 finish can be tested with a swipe of your hand in a dimly lit room. Its butter smooth and you can tell. Most GC I've worked under made it a priority to me too point out any problems w/ the finish as its a very expensive cost too add to the job. 

You can never achieve a true level 5 w/ just a trowel unless its a very skilled drywall technician. Spray is the best option.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

oz_painter said:


> i never trust what the builder or plasterer tell me, i dont think its hard to run your hand over the plaster work and tell what sort of quality job it is.
> 
> either way if i was in your position i would just keep going until someone said something, if you point it out now they might just run back to there office and figure out how to blame you then make you fix it for free. thats my assumption, on the flip side they might actually tell you to come back after they fix it


Depending on how bad it is some times we take care of it and charge for our time or if it's bad enough they get the plaster back in.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

aaron61 said:


> I'm going to ask a stupid question...Did you spray & backroll with a high build primer?? If it's not bad enough to show until you take down plastic then how bad is it?? If it only shows as bad under extreme light then touch up & go. Sounds like allot of bad eyes!
> 
> Without seeing some pics it's hard to offer a solution


I understand...I will try to take pics but it does not show very well withiut seeing it in person...

I did not packroll. I sprayed zinsser 123 and problems only show in special light conditions... depending on time and lighting... except the metal corners and taped angles. The thing is that it is a 6 million$ pent house, it ain't a supermarket...


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

spraytech said:


> I'm sorry buddy but it shouldn't have taken 22k sq ft of primer to realize it wasn't a level 5 finish. Upon seeing they wasn't doing it the right way you notify the GC. If he says it's OK then your good to go without worry of your responsibility of the problem. You just can't say I couldn't see the problem cause of plastic on the windows. A true level 5 finish can be tested with a swipe of your hand in a dimly lit room. Its butter smooth and you can tell. Most GC I've worked under made it a priority to me too point out any problems w/ the finish as its a very expensive cost too add to the job.
> 
> You can never achieve a true level 5 w/ just a trowel unless its a very skilled drywall technician. Spray is the best option.


The problem here in Quebec is that nobody heffin knows what level 5 is... I informed the drywall guy and he basically brushed me off... 

I'm pretty sure he'll come back to "fix" the job but i do not think fixing is an option, as all the touch ups will show up under the right light as a different finish on the surface...


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

PeintureLavergne.com said:


> The problem here in Quebec is that nobody heffin knows what level 5 is... I informed the drywall guy and he basically brushed me off...
> 
> I'm pretty sure he'll come back to "fix" the job but i do not think fixing is an option, as all the touch ups will show up under the right light as a different finish on the surface...


Just use a 1" lambskin roller for the finish and that will fix all the fook ups.

Pat


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Really nothing you can do on your end. I would suggest instead of spot prime just spray and backroll entire thing w/ a heavy nap after they touch it up. Maybe you can somewhat level it out w/ 2 heavy coats.

Also I always backroll my primer coat. It makes your whole job better.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Just use a 1" lambskin roller for the finish and that will fix all the fook ups.
> 
> Pat


lol yep that will hide the imperfections. They will be to busy wondering what the heck is going on with the stipple.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PDCA industry standard states that your application of primer does not constitute acceptance of the the substrate. Hopefully you can use that to leverage if necessary, although its not the PDC-Canada so I don't know if it will help. The Zinsser 123 primer has a slight sheen, so if you were going over with flat that would help. Good luck.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> PDCA industry standard states that your application of primer does not constitute acceptance of the the substrate. Hopefully you can use that to leverage if necessary, although its not the PDC-Canada so I don't know if it will help. The Zinsser 123 primer has a slight sheen, so if you were going over with flat that would help. Good luck.


Does anyone here have experience with situations where Section 9900 and the PDCA standard come into conflict, as they seem to do in a situation like this? I guess if neither one is part of, or referenced in, the construction documents, it may all be a moot point.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Zinsser 123???? really? No back roll?? Dude that would be so slick a fly would break his neck trying to land on it!!!

What is this a surgical center?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Gough said:


> Does anyone here have experience with situations where Section 9900 and the PDCA standard come into conflict, as they seem to do in a situation like this? I guess if neither one is part of, or referenced in, the construction documents, it may all be a moot point.


Would you provide a link to this section 9900? This is the first I have heard of it.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I always prime and eventually first coat to achieve a level 5. I'll do more mudwork after the first coat.

Sooooo,,,,,I'd think the finishers would want to prime, or be glad you did.

Imo, its part of the process,,,,,,at least part of my process.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

HouseOfColor said:


> Would you provide a link to this section 9900? This is the first I have heard of it.


Here's the first example that a GIS turned up:

http://pr2.fmbx.org/files/051612-river-falls-estates/specs/s045__9900 - Painting.pdf

We've encountered this mostly on commercial work, but we see it once in a while in residential if the architect often works in commercial projects as well.

In its original form, it's produced by the Construction Specification Institute and is part of a whole set of specifications covering all of the trades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_Specifications_Institute

EDIT: the example that I linked has been, like most of them that we've seen, tweaked to fit a particular project. Architects like to cut and paste those specifications, that's why that particular set specifies "No flat finishes", for example. The general language stays the same, but details, like acceptable brands of paint, vary from project to project, based on the whim of the architect.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Gough said:


> Here's the first example that a GIS turned up:
> 
> http://pr2.fmbx.org/files/051612-river-falls-estates/specs/s045__9900%20-%20Painting.pdf
> 
> ...


Ill check it out later thanks. Common sense thinking though, off the top of my head, depending on a following trade to consider previous trade's product as acceptable or not is a bad idea. Signed paper or not, any decent lawyer or speaker would be able to wiggle through that without too much effort. 

PDCA has standards I am familiar with so I get my contract signed or I don't work.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

HouseOfColor said:


> Ill check it out later thanks. Common sense thinking though, off the top of my head, depending on a following trade to consider previous trade's product as acceptable or not is a bad idea. Signed paper or not, any decent lawyer or speaker would be able to wiggle through that without too much effort.
> 
> PDCA has standards I am familiar with so I get my contract signed or I don't work.


Unfortunately, the CSI specs are widely (almost universally) used in commercial work in the US, and have an established track record of legal precedence. 

If they're not part of the contract language, and the PDCA standards are, either by direct inclusion or by reference, there shouldn't be a problem. If the CSI ones are, and there's nothing comparable to the PDCA, that's a real problem. If both of them are somewhere in the contracts, the only real winners will probably be the lawyers.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

-It was asked already... What does it state in your contract, after all you do have a contract if your painting a 5million dollar property right?

-If the (client paid) for a level 5 finish & the plasterer was hired to accomplish that then it is not your responsibility. 

If you are the finisher then you stop at this point and bring it to the attention that the walls are not at level 5 to the GC, Plasterer. If attitude builds up then take it up with the paying client, letting them know that they are not getting what they paid for and the finish coats will turn out sub par because the walls are botched.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

On a big job like this, I would want to have all these kind of details already discussed with the GC to know the expectations and responsibilities of all parties.

It doesn't really matter what we think. It comes down to what you agreed to in the contract and what the GC has in mind. 

Good luck.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't get it, all we do it put micron thin coatings and yet we're left holding the bag for all the other trades???? This is every bit the fault of painters, if we as a group accepted no culpability in the craftsmanship of what came before us, folks would start getting the hint that if they want to blame lousy workmanship that they should start gunning for the source. This reminds of the time when a plasterer did a job that was real 'soft' - I washed the entire surface with water and vinegar in an effort to get rid of all the chalky powder and harden the plaster at no extra cost!!!!!! And yet I still get the blame when the primer peels off a crumbly plaster surface, where is the logic in that? G.C. through me under the bus on that job, he even admitted to me before that happened that his previous plaster contractor looked at this guy's work on several jobs and said it was crappy - yet he himself didn't think it was bad.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

aaron61 said:


> Zinsser 123???? really? No back roll?? Dude that would be so slick a fly would break his neck trying to land on it!!!
> 
> What is this a surgical center?


lol Thats the perfect finish we were goin for...
for shooting, it is now pretty much out of the question...
I think we'll roll the 123 and sand it with a 220 on a planex or pc...
It ain't gonna fix the shoddy taping job though.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> On a big job like this, I would want to have all these kind of details already discussed with the GC to know the expectations and responsibilities of all parties.
> 
> It doesn't really matter what we think. It comes down to what you agreed to in the contract and what the GC has in mind.
> 
> Good luck.


Meeting due on monday with the architect, the gc the owner and me... It is clear to most involved excepted the gc that the drywall guy is at fault. 
But we now have to see how it is gonna get fixed!

I thank you all for chiming in, Ill give you some news when I know!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

PeintureLavergne.com said:


> Meeting due on monday with the architect, the gc the owner and me...


Shouldn't the drywall guy be there also? :yes:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Not if he will be the one who is getting back charged to fix it. :jester:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Shouldn't the drywall guy be there also? :yes:


Only if he makes bail:whistling2:


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

I think there is enough blame here to go around. From what I read nobody involved knows what a level 5 really is, the gc the taper, and sorry the painter. And as some of the earlier posts suggest no you cannot turn a level 4 into a level 5 with paint no matter what nap you use. I know there are some very good, no I should say excellent painters on this forum but you can't fix a bad mud job with paint. If this customer is paying for a level 5 finish then that is what they should be getting. The only way I see to fix this right is to re-mud it, in my opinion any thing else would be like putting perfume on a hog.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Toolnut said:


> I think there is enough blame here to go around. From what I read nobody involved knows what a level 5 really is, the gc the taper, and sorry the painter. And as some of the earlier posts suggest no you cannot turn a level 4 into a level 5 with paint no matter what nap you use. I know there are some very good, no I should say excellent painters on this forum but you can't fix a bad mud job with paint. If this customer is paying for a level 5 finish then that is what they should be getting. The only way I see to fix this right is to re-mud it, in my opinion any thing else would be like putting perfume on a hog.


This makes the most sense. I was going to keep quiet but you just spilled the truth. Level 5 in in a class of it's own, when done properly.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Possibly using surfacing primers that achieve a level 5 would be in order.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

paintpimp said:


> Possibly using surfacing primers that achieve a level 5 would be in order.


How many coats? I guessing 10+ and a light sanding with 150 between coats.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

EDIT: my mistake


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I think he is talking about this. 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-ma4uVViNZrv9sbow&sig2=PruR1kap-AaNfMIxw7ODLQ

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eGzaN53klx9HpK_ug&sig2=UeV1gndA7tJVDEc7qwwePQ


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

PeintureLavergne.com said:


> As I was writing my post I suddenly felt... stoopid.
> 
> yes we did prime the whole thing... in a day. It became apparent the second day when the daylight came in as we removed the plastic from the windows.
> Touch ups were to be expected but it goes way beyond that now.


Im really sorry to hear that. No need to feel stoopid. It is what it is. Focus on a solution. Im not sure how things are in your area? But around here, if you prime it....... you bought it. I hope it work out for you.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> any thing else would be like putting perfume on a hog.


 Dude!!!! Im soooooo gonna start using that phrase :thumbsup: "Like putting perfume on a hog!"  I love it :thumbup:


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## oz_painter (Aug 18, 2012)

^^thats is a pretty good saying:yes:


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

"Trying to polish a turd"describes this situation


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

HouseOfColor said:


> I think he is talking about this.
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-ma4uVViNZrv9sbow&sig2=PruR1kap-AaNfMIxw7ODLQ
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eGzaN53klx9HpK_ug&sig2=UeV1gndA7tJVDEc7qwwePQ


SW Duron has a very good high build NC primer. Can be applied at 24 mills WFT, and sands down like a champ. 
http://www.johnsonhomeconstruction.com/remodeling-articles/highbuild-drywall-primer-316


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Pull it together,,,,you, the gc, and the finishers.

I'd think the finishers would like it primed,,,

Everyone will shine,,,,,the gc, you, and the finisher,,,

The homeowner will appreciate it.


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## JNL Co (Jan 6, 2013)

Usually when you proceed and do your job it means that you accept the work that was done in front of you. A closer inspection should have been done before the job was primed, especially since you knew that the finishers were not doing the job correctly. The GC is probably going to ask you why you primed it if it wasn't right. At this point skimming the whole thing again by a good finisher is probably the only way to fix it.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> I hope the construction documents didn't include the standard Section 9900. Here's 9900 3(A)1: "Examine all surfaces to see that they are in proper condition to be finished before
> proceeding with the work. Starting work will constitute the painter’s acceptance of
> preceding work and conditions under which finish will be applied and his
> assumption of responsibility for results to be obtained. "
> ...


If anybody gets tied up with a GC'S and they are doing you dirty and using this clause to do it just don't accept anything as ready. Point out imoerfections in everything and say you don't think it's ready to paint, All work has imperfections no matter how minor. Point to them, Whrn they claim ithat they've addressed the problems, walk the work and flunk it again, Just point put every little imperfection that we all know is there no matter how minor.

Eventually because they have schedules to keep and they ain't gonna get their draws if the work doesn't get done, they will order you to paint it and then they own it. An Email will be proof enuff. It may be a tad bit awkward a tactic to employ but.it is in self defense.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Oden said:


> If anybody gets tied up with a GC'S and they are doing you dirty and using this clause to do it just don't accept anything as ready. Point out imoerfections in everything and say you don't think it's ready to paint, All work has imperfections no matter how minor. Point to them, Whrn they claim ithat they've addressed the problems, walk the work and flunk it again, Just point put every little imperfection that we all know is there no matter how minor.
> 
> Eventually because they have schedules to keep and they ain't gonna get their draws if the work doesn't get done, they will order you to paint it and then they own it. An Email will be proof enuff. It may be a tad bit awkward a tactic to employ but.it is in self defense.


Sounds to me like you've found the solution to that pesky repeat business....

Our approach is to go over the work with a clamp light and a soft pencil and mark those areas that need to be repaired, then let the GWB contractors take care of it. On several commercial jobs, the GWB contractors have paid us for our time to do that.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

So... We went for a walk with bright lights. And saw what was to be seen. Some people are only about money, no pride for the work. They are now trying to find faults in the primer job, this is ridiculous... GC says it will go away with rolling, I hate this side of construction! Two drywall guys have been in there since tuesday doing touch ups. they are due to finish on well tomorrow. 
It's not a money problem for me since I will be paid no doubt but what a pain! 
When I told the drywall guy he should have used 220 instead od 150 he told me to go... well not very constructive.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

PeintureLavergne.com said:


> So... We went for a walk with bright lights. And saw what was to be seen. Some people are only about money, no pride for the work. They are now trying to find faults in the primer job, this is ridiculous... GC says it will go away with rolling, I hate this side of construction! Two drywall guys have been in there since tuesday doing touch ups. they are due to finish on well tomorrow.
> It's not a money problem for me since I will be paid no doubt but what a pain!
> When I told the drywall guy he should have used 220 instead od 150 he told me to go... well not very constructive.


I paint it as many times as they want if I 'm gettin paid. Never a problem.


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## Bill from Indy (Jan 29, 2011)

To original poster...sorry to say but all 3 are at fault..the finisher doesn't know how to do a level 5...gc doesn't know what a level 5 should be and, sorry to say, you don't either. All 3 of you should have known if it was ready for prime or not before priming..it got rushed and this is the outcome. Should it be your fault when they both said prime it? NOPE! Should you have known it wasn't ready and suggested it wasn't if you know what you were dealing with on L5? yes

Im not bashing you and forgive me if it sounds that way.I just think you should know what your doing or dealing with on each job or don't do it/them. This goes for all 3...not just you.

L5 is not a major deal to those that know what it is but can be major to those that don't. Personally, I never spray new drywall without backrolling. You have different porosity to deal with..mud/sanded mud/board..this is where you get flashing and backrolling levels it out better..That being said, a L5 is to overcome this...it should be one finish over entire wall..sanded mud

You have 2 options..drywaller needs to reskim walls if they are as bad as you say...or you can spray a finish called tufhide or sprayplast..but if the walls are as bad as you say, sprayplast may not help either.

Good luck and hopefully it gets worked out. I wouldn't bite the bullet on it..at the very least, if it is a total reprime I would backcharge for materials.

To the others..I think this is the first time i have posted but have been lurking for awhile..Capt. sheetrock brought me here from drywall talk. Very cool people here and good site. To the guy that said a L5 can't be done with a trowel...well..sorry man your wrong..been skimming walls for 20yrs with a 10/12/magic trowel with good success...is tufhide and a sprayer more efficient?...yea if that process can be done

perfume on a pig....priceless!!


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Bill from Indy I said can't get level 5 w/ trowel unless its a very skilled drywall technician. Please read all before you quote someone.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken doesn't "level 5" mean 5 steps? Most jobs I see here are level 4; 3 coats of mud plus 1 sanding, 4. Sounds like step 5 was eliminated from this job. :thumbsup:


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## Bill from Indy (Jan 29, 2011)

spraytech said:


> You can never achieve a true level 5 w/ just a trowel unless its a very skilled drywall technician. Spray is the best option.


I stand corrected...sorry I should read whole thing before opening mouth..but overall i think we are on same page...just missed the "skilled technician" part


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## spraytech (Dec 27, 2012)

Yes were on same page lol. If you been drywall for 20 years you better be good w/ trowel lol but you know as well as I that most can't trowel a level 5


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

A level 5 is just a tight skim over an entire level 4. It is spelled out in GA 216 and ASTM C840, it's not that complicated. 

All my drywall taping quotes refer to these 2 specifications since NO ONE around here provides them, I clearly state level of finish from these 2 spec's for taping quotations and PDCA for painting.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

spraytech said:


> "Trying to polish a turd"describes this situation


Use this!


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Bill from Indy said:


> I stand corrected...sorry I should read whole thing before opening mouth..but overall i think we are on same page...just missed the "skilled technician" part



Skilled LOL


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)




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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> Drywall Finishing Tips for a Level 5 Drywall Finish - YouTube


I was interested to see that the video was from USG. A few years ago, Myron Ferguson wrote in FHB about doing a Level 5 finish with the roll-on (mud) and trowel method. The next month, someone from one of the GWB companies wrote in to say that the roll-on/trowel method WASN'T an acceptable way to obtain a Level 5....


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

We have that machine...love it!


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## Bill from Indy (Jan 29, 2011)

Gough said:


> I was interested to see that the video was from USG. A few years ago, Myron Ferguson wrote in FHB about doing a Level 5 finish with the roll-on (mud) and trowel method. The next month, someone from one of the GWB companies wrote in to say that the roll-on/trowel method WASN'T an acceptable way to obtain a Level 5....


Who do you think came up with the L5 spec? This was LONG before any high build products were available...we were doing L5 in hospitals and lilly plant when i first started in 89 and they were being done with mud before then..im not sure what "gwb company" is but i'll call b.s....although myron has some stories too..some things i dont agree with him on but everyone achieves the end result different


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bill from Indy said:


> Who do you think came up with the L5 spec? This was LONG before any high build products were available...we were doing L5 in hospitals and lilly plant when i first started in 89 and they were being done with mud before then..im not sure what "gwb company" is but i'll call b.s....although myron has some stories too..some things i dont agree with him on but everyone achieves the end result different


I understand that L5s have been done with mud long before high-build surfacer/primers were introduced. Sorry if I didn't a make myself clear. What surprised me was that USG had made the video about doing a Level 5 by rolling on thinned mud and troweling it out. Within the last few years, Myron had his FHB article about doing the same and a rep from one of the major mfg. replied that his approach was not an acceptable way to obtain Level 5. It was the mfg. rep that I referred to as a rep from a GWB (Gypsum WallBoard) company. The rep insisted that the skimcoat needed to be trowel-applied to qualify as a true L5.

I may have to dig though my stack of old FHBs to see if I can track it down.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I think L5 was invented by joint compound companies...

Is it the drywall contractors responsibilities to achieve the L5? I thought it was. 

Have we found a resolution to the OP yet?


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## Bill from Indy (Jan 29, 2011)

I think I understand what you were saying...they (gwb) are saying it isnt a proper application being rolled on? Has to be hand applied...well..ok..lol

I havent read the article he did on that...maybe the way he did it was wrong..but there isnt a whole lot to skimming a wall to one consistency..be it hand/rolled or sprayed...hell we were spraying topping through speeflo sprayers before the high builds..I dont know how true it is..but heard from a rep that tufhide is green AP and first coat mixed together in some fashion/formula..its hard as hell on pumps...we used a product called sprayplast more


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## Bill from Indy (Jan 29, 2011)

TJ..it was yes..i think it stemmed from union ba's but dont hold me to that..yes 90% of the time it is called up on drywallers..but profitability can be really good and some painters here do it when they can spray it..stripped wallcovering (vinyl) jobs going to paint is done a lot around here in older commercial buildings


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Roll it with thin mud, and magic trowel it.


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## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

No matter what you use to paint it it or how good it is you need a ton of coats to get a great finish. It takes at least 5 coats on top of skim to coat to get a finish to look great. I like 2 coats gardz/ 3 coats finish...either aura or behr ultra pure Prem. Sand well before last coat. Of course there will be touch up spackle...always is.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Not to be an A$$ but who the hell is gonna pay for that system??? 2 coats Guardz/3 coats Aura.....
Doesn't that kinda defeat the whole purpose of Aura?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

b2dap1 said:


> No matter what you use to paint it it or how good it is you need a ton of coats to get a great finish. It takes at least 5 coats on top of skim to coat to get a finish to look great. I like 2 coats gardz/ 3 coats finish...either aura or behr ultra pure Prem. Sand well before last coat. Of course there will be touch up spackle...always is.


 
mentioning these 2 products in the same sentence is, well, it's just wrong:yes:

*3* coats of Aura, 2 of Gardz????????????????????????


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## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

Use whatever primer. I just like gardz on spackle. Goes on and dries fast. If someone will pay for a true level 5 they will pay to finish it as well. Its def extra steps but looks GREAT and saves a lot of going back.


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## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

Just to clarify...I've only done this twice. Out here in central jersey I don't run into to much level 5. When I have, the finished product looks outstanding.


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## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

Why are gardz and aura bad? They work great.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

My "undocumented workers" create level 5 finishes for me quickly. They barely take breaks,,,,they are eager to please,,,and they have a lot of cousins willing to work.
It seems like they all paint and finish,,,,many of them roof, and landscape also.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

high fibre said:


> My "undocumented workers" create level 5 finishes for me quickly. They barely take breaks,,,,they are eager to please,,,and they have a lot of cousins willing to work.
> It seems like they all paint and finish,,,,many of them roof, and landscape also.


Your living the dream man. Living the dream. :thumbup:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

high fibre said:


> My "undocumented workers" create level 5 finishes for me quickly. They barely take breaks,,,,they are eager to please,,,and they have a lot of cousins willing to work.
> It seems like they all paint and finish,,,,many of them roof, and landscape also.


btw, whats the biggest size house they have painted for you while you sipped on your mojito? I once did a monster dog house owned by a trillionare. . . It was B. A.


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## tadgerfan (Mar 4, 2012)

shew, just joined...reading through this tragedy, wonder what happened with OP. and been wondering when "high build" primer would come up... 

(Our std Level 5 is high quality 3 coats mud on joints and fasteners, painter applies High Build Primer applied about 20 to 26 mil then entire surface lightly sanded...sometimes 2x if the drywall fellas are less than special...)

sheow, sorry for reigniting dead thread all.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

PeintureLavergne.com said:


> So... 22 000 sq ft walls and ceiling. Client requested a total glazing of new boards. The crew (14 people at times) did not have a clue how to get it done. They vere going at it with straight mud and a 12 in trowell. I spoke to the foreman about sanding and he assured me he knew what he was doing.
> 
> Now... after the primer, the ugly truth comes out... This job is no good. The taping (corners) suck, the metal corners are really bad. And, the sanding, the whole surface is scarred or not enough sanded so the ceilings and walls look like the ocean.
> 
> ...


Sand it all down and skim coat it. Only way to save it.


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