# Anyone can paint



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

We are all sick of the mindset that Suzie and Harry have that "anyone can paint" and also the lack of respect that painters get from other trades and GC's.

But if you look at the work that too many "professional painters" perform, it's not hard to understand where that all comes from.

Here are three pictures that are very representative of the house I was in last week. This is a home in the wealthiest town in MA and one of the wealthiest in the nation. The HO is a delightful person who accepted my bid with no reservations and trusted me to know my job. I have the feeling she treated all trades that way. The areas that I papered had recently been painted, so this is not the result of a nickel and diming GC. The cleaning lady was even going around the house and razor blading the windows, so you know the HO did have a sense of quality. 




























With these type of hacks running around, the profession does get a bad reputation. 

What to do about it ? I do not know. It's an uphill battle fighting what a HO sees every day on their walls and trim.


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## goodkarmapainting (Nov 20, 2012)

Oh gawd....! Ewww...


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

That's not a professional's work, maybe some hack calling himself a pro, but a real pro would never leave that kind of chitty work.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

looks like typical work to me, I know a way to fight the battle. Put these pictures up on yours website with an explanation that this is what you get when you accept many of the lower bids out there. I've spent many an hour sanding down trim just like that, and no it's not a 'scuff' sand, it's spending a good 20 minutes per side of door frame with 100 grit to get that crap down flat.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

cdaniels said:


> That's not a professional's work, maybe some hack calling himself a pro, but a real pro would never leave that kind of chitty work.


I disagree, if you accept money for your work and have basic business credentials - then you are a 'pro'. And this work is the majority of what I see out there.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> I disagree, if you accept money for your work and have basic business credentials - then you are a 'pro'. And this work is the majority of what I see out there.


Anyone can accept money for painting that makes them a pro?...not imo...I have seen this kind of work too but definitely not in the majority of the homes I work in.


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## goodkarmapainting (Nov 20, 2012)

I just don't see how anybody can leave a job knowing that they did this kind of work. Just bad mojo man...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

cdaniels said:


> Anyone can accept money for painting that makes them a pro?...not imo...I have seen this kind of work too but definitely not in the majority of the homes I work in.


This is the quality in the majority of homes I work in, and I am not even working in the town Bill is talking about, Newton is my guess, that is wealth on steroids. Personally I blue-tape all the floors adjacent to all the basboards and door jambs, it may not sound like much - but you are spending a large amount of time doing this task. I charge for my time, and people don't pay. Because as Bill pointed out - we're all the same, so why pay another guy more money?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Most painters know how to cut the corners necessary to meet the time constraints placed on them more often then not, while maintaing the illusion of quality. That's a professional in my opinion.

By the looks of the picture, that was not a professional painter. No matter how much he got paid. A professional painter develops a muscle memory and momentum that could never allow for that type of work.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

goodkarmapainting said:


> I just don't see how anybody can leave a job knowing that they did this kind of work. Just bad mojo man...


LOL - if you think this is bad, you should have seen tradesmen back in the 70's and 80's around here. My folks GC hired this wallboard crew to mud the walls and sand finish the ceilings. This was back in the 80s - the work was good in some areas and horrid in some other areas. But mostly they mudded over a newly installed carpet and never covered it - it had huge goops of mud all over the carpet - and they walked into the house and up the stairs with their boots all crudded over. 

And lest you think my old man searched for the cheapest contractors, they didn't - in fact unlike most folks, my folks never ever never got multiple estimates for anything in their life. 

And the best part, not only were the subs and GC not embarrassed - they never even suspected that they should have been embarrassed.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I understand....I do see this stuff but it's usually done by the HO,or a friend that volunteered to help them. Anyone that would leave this stuff is a hack,paid or not.My customers appreciate my work....maybe because they have seen this type of work too.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Most painters know how to cut the corners necessary to meet the time constraints placed on them more often then not, while maintaing the illusion of quality. That's a professional in my opinion.
> 
> By the looks of the picture, that was not a professional painter. No matter how much he got paid. A professional painter develops a muscle memory and momentum that could never allow for that type of work.


You guys are confusing quality with professionals. This was a professional, in the sense that this was a legitimate contractor who derives his income from painting. This represents the majority of work out there, whether or not painttalk agrees or not.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

cdaniels said:


> I understand....I do see this stuff but it's usually done by the HO,or a friend that volunteered to help them. Anyone that would leave this stuff is a hack,paid or not.My customers appreciate my work....maybe because they have seen this type of work too.


Then 90% of the painters are hacks, I don't know if my customers appreciate my quality - because I don't get hired, where as the guy who did the work in the photo does get hired.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

there are obviously PROFESSIONALS and then there are the professional hacks. We here who allow our pride and ethics to dictate our quality need not get defensive, but we do need to be concerned that there are too many professional hacks out there. As Dan says, there are just too many of those professional hacks in this part of the world. And no Dan, not Newton, a little to the *WEST* and north. 

Somehow the HO's need understand there IS a difference and not "painting is painting". Perhaps those who show a portfolio can have pictures such as these that show what kind of work the "Painters For Less" do and pictures of your quality next to them and have the HO decide what they want. 

I am not a painter, so I would not have pix like these on my website. If anyone wants to use them, I can easily post the orig full size ones on my website for anyone to download and use. 

But again, be assured that there are many MANY out there who get paid for this kind of work. I know one. No sanding, no washing, just Slap Dash. Any contact by anything hard on his painted trim, and his paint just flakes off. 

it's short of criminal.


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## goodkarmapainting (Nov 20, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> You guys are confusing quality with professionals. This was a professional, in the sense that this was a legitimate contractor who derives his income from painting. This represents the majority of work out there, whether or not painttalk agrees or not.


Ok.... "Professional" hack???


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> Then 90% of the painters are hacks, I don't know if my customers appreciate my quality - because I don't get hired, where as the guy who did the work in the photo does get hired.


I don't know how it is where you're from but around here the quality of your work is what gets you(or doesn't get you) more work.Keep your quality standards high and you will be working when those guys can't get a call.I certainly don't want to argue about who is a pro or not but "pro's" of that caliber wouldn't last long in my neck of the woods.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

goodkarmapainting said:


> Ok.... "Professional" hack???


I don't like the term 'hack', because it suggests an outlier or a minority of the population. These guys dominate the trade. These guys typically win the bids when I go up against them - because afterall, we're all the same.....

Guys talk about 'scuff' sanding trim and it should not take long, you can't just 'scuff' sand that stuff. I'd say 8 out of 10 jobs I am up against work like that.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> This is the quality in the majority of homes I work in, and I am not even working in the town Bill is talking about, Newton is my guess, that is wealth on steroids. Personally I blue-tape all the floors adjacent to all the basboards and door jambs, it may not sound like much - but you are spending a large amount of time doing this task. I charge for my time, and people don't pay. Because as Bill pointed out - we're all the same, so why pay another guy more money?


I did a job recently where I had to paint about twenty elbow stands in an underground pipe gallery. The conditions in that area were typical of an industrial environment. Dark, dingy, and dirty, with nothing but steel and concrete.

Because of time constraints place on me, as usual, I had to make the best of the situation. Knowing that the bare steel needed protection, I applied one thickly brushed coat of Devoe 235 Bar Rust Epoxy. I wanted to apply two coats, but knew It would be unlikely I'd be given the time without having to accelerate my speed beyond reason.


Make a long story short, in order to create the illusion of a quality job, I placed Blue Tape around all the footings despite the cruddy environment. As a result, I was complimented on how professional the job looked! I thanked everyone knowing that it was all an illusion in an effort to mask the deficiency of a second coat, which is more important then crisp lines. I compromised my work ethics knowing that the stands were not part of a critical process. 

I'll save "Why do painters always compromise? " for another thread.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

cdaniels said:


> I don't know how it is where you're from but around here the quality of your work is what gets you(or doesn't get you) more work.Keep your quality standards high and you will be working when those guys can't get a call.I certainly don't want to argue about who is a pro or not but "pro's" of that caliber wouldn't last long in my neck of the woods.


This 'caliber' of work along with a cheap price guarantees you work around my neck in the woods. I think I know where Bill is talking about - those folks aren't short of any money. Maybe it's a yankee New England cheap mentality - I don't know - but it's definitely there.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

may not be pretty but it does the job an that's the real problem with painting. a HO'er cant just go up on a roof an replace it or a HO'er cant just go in the basement an rewire the house but a HOer can slap some paint on the trim an it will do the job....pretty or not the job was done.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ole34 said:


> may not be pretty but it does the job an that's the real problem with painting. a HO'er cant just go up on a roof an replace it or a HO'er cant just go in the basement an rewire the house but a HOer can slap some paint on the trim an it will do the job....pretty or not the job was done.


By you saying "the job was done" implies that this particular HO was satisfied with the results. If so, then why did the cleaning lady need go around and scrape the windows? Or why did the HO compliment me on the trimming I did around a complicated return? 

She notices those things. AND she kept referring to them as "my painters" implying she has used them more than once. 

I believe the solution is to EDUCATE the HO's about the difference and what real VALUE is.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

But I started this thread not to engage in bickering amongst those of us who perform quality work, but to show what is out there and that obviously some folks do not know what REAL professionalism is all about. I am assuming all you professionals painters on PT are disgusted that there are "professionals" like this out there who are still in business. It would do us and the profession good to point out to Suzie and Harry that this is NOT typical of ALL painting contractors. That some of us have PRIDE in our work.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Bill, I just wrote you the pm discussing what I am going to do, what else do you think can be done? What more opportunities do we have to educate the homeowner. I know this must be a thorn in your side for perhaps 30 years now? We all talk about educating the consumer - but I just feel when we meet a homeowner on an estimate, not only is time limited, they're just more focused on getting you out of the way and make time for the next contractor they've asked to bid. TV commercials do 'interruption' marketing and repeat time and time again to get people to remember, what can we do to get in peoples' face repeatedly?

Most guys here think that someone does crappy work like this and news gets around and they get dumped and the quality guy gets elevated and everyone is happy - but you and I both know this isn't the case. These guys are rampant and don't seem to be going away.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I wish there were a way to make HO's understand the difference in quality in our trade as well as other trades but You would think common sense would be enough.I guess it's just not as common as it used to be.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Dan,

I assume you got my return PM with the urls of the pix.

(I offer these to all, but if you use them please no mention of me or the location)

Yes I do understand the time constraints while estimating and selling a job. For those who give the HO a portfolio to look at while they are measuring, I was THINKING some comparison shots with appropriate wording could show the difference between you and the hacks. If they ant the hacked job, let 'em have it, but at least they will be making an informed decision.

And you are correct that these type of people keep getting the jobs. I know a few of them very well. 

BUT that said, I also know MORE who do top quality work and they do very well despite the alleged Yankee mindset. The TRUE blueblooded Yankees are not looking for CHEAP, they really do want VALUE. It is up to us to sell our value.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

cdaniels said:


> I wish there were a way to make HO's understand the difference in quality in our trade as well as other trades but You would think common sense would be enough.I guess it's just not as common as it used to be.


Among my buddies we like to call it 'uncommon' sense. I am asking Bill that very same question. What can we do to make our customers understand? You can't see sanding for instance, when a job is finished nobody understands why they paid you all that money - it's just paint. 

this has been a thorn in my side, we have seemingly obtuse clients who don't know quality when it bitch-slaps them in the face when we're trying sell our work, yet we've all been there when clients start picking apart your work towards the end. This drives me nuts!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Bill, I got your pm and thanks - whatever I do, I will run by you first before publishing. I am still left unsatisfied by what we can do. I still feel even with a portfolio most people really arent' going to understand. 

Case in point, I gave neighbors an estimate to paint their home for $7,600. Homeowner said they were going with someone else for $6,000. So I asked, did they specify two topcoats of paint after prep, his answer....uh, I believe so.

I then watch them paint their home and they only did one coat of paint. How black and white can you get? Assuming the other guy writes legible contracts, which I can attest that he does - you have to either assume people are idiots or that price propels them to make bad decisions. Heck, I was offering to lower my estimate based on one coat - and as far as he was concerned the other guy was doing two coats - because I said I would.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Hacks are nothing more then con artists, and con artist have been doing this since forever. We've all seen the quality (or lack there of) of hack painters. I am still amazed by the amount of ridiculous work I see when I go and bid jobs. A hacks goal is not to exceed a customers expectations, fulfill contract obligations, perform quality work, etc. etc. etc. 

I'd say that 30-40% of what I consider lifelong clients of mine have came from initial jobs that I fixed from a previous hack painter. Looking at it this way, I am somewhat thankful for hack painters. These clients have seen what kind of quality and professionalism comes from the hacks, and once they hire someone like most of us on here, it's almost a shoe in that they become customers for life.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

That work is out there (a lot, agree with Plain)
I don't agree that is hopeless though. Using means like Bill's pictures
or others, (yes,anonymously Bill) goes a long way to educate consumers.
This discussion is great here, but we are the converted, right?
Show this during sales calls, maybe in company websites, Facebook etc.
Discuss it where the consumers hang out.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Ok, here it is, with a question to the consumer.
I promoted this post, so there should be a lot of engagement on it.

I don't think anyone can trace the origins of the picture Bill.


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

I here have more problems getting quality in GC's heads... they often do not even see the difference _or do not care_ bottom line is; "money saved is money in their pockets."
I see the pictures and cringe as most people here. I am not sure the flaws depicted are even obvious to some customers. People who do not see the difference do not care and do not understand the difference in time necessary to accomplish passable work and superior work. They probably even see it as a "waste". 
I find it frustrating to try to educate customers while not allowing quality to slip and maintaining a competitive edge.
For some people, it is only business, slap it on thick mate!
And Thanks for the pics, I will use them on my FB page.


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

You all should be working right now

Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


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## PeintureLavergne.com (Dec 17, 2011)

Lunch break here!


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Ramsden Painting said:


> You all should be working right now
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


Funny. 
This is work (or nice work if you can get it)


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Ramsden Painting said:


> You all should be working right now
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


Late coffee break out here in the Pacific Time Zone.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Just my two cents- I think one reason why homeowners continue on with substandard workers is trust. I know in the first ten minutes of meeting a potential client if I have gained their trust. Once I have that it is much easier to sell them , but you might also be able to manipulate them. So if her painters always did that type of work and she trusts that that is how it is done- voila!
We've all seen things on jobsites that shouldn't have been that way. That's probably why in my own home, I am the over-educated client that you may not want to work for. How to impart that onto the public? Good question.

Acton? Concord? I did a job in Acton about 4 years ago, the location was not on a map,and I had to sign a non disclosure agreement. Oops, I've said too much.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> This is the quality in the majority of homes I work in, and I am not even working in the town Bill is talking about, Newton is my guess, that is wealth on steroids. Personally I blue-tape all the floors adjacent to all the basboards and door jambs, it may not sound like much - but you are spending a large amount of time doing this task. I charge for my time, and people don't pay. Because as Bill pointed out - we're all the same, so why pay another guy more money?


I too wouldn't pay for extra time for someone to put blue tape all around edges and whatnot. That's what homeowners and DIY'ers do. 
I've learned how to handle and use a brush well, employ drop cloths, and keep a damp rag handy.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The only way to teach the residential owner what constitutes a good paint job from a poor one, is to offer home painting inspectors that can verify just that. Since painting contractors are generally not required to comply with a set of standards set forth by most county permit departments, anything goes. Unlike with other trades, where severe penalties can result from preforming work without state recognized certifications and building permit requirements.

Homeowners won't take the painting trade seriously until the building industry does first. Until then, trying to justify $50.00-$60.00 an hour for a solo operator will be challenging since Suzie and Harry can find someone to do the job for $30.00 in less time and with less process.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't understand all the spatter in the last picture. I could paint all that trim seen without any tape or tarp and maybe drip once or twice in which I would wipe off with a finger. That was just total disreguard to doing a nice job.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

George Z said:


> Ok, here it is, with a question to the consumer.
> I promoted this post, so there should be a lot of engagement on it.
> 
> I don't think anyone can trace the origins of the picture Bill.


LOVE it George.

I SOOOO wanted to comment on Jonathan Ross' "I will give credit to the wallpaper guy..trimming that must have been fun", but then the brain started working again :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ramsden Painting said:


> You all should be working right now
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


Yup, I am. Gotta a large estimate that I just finished. 

Plus I consider educating my fellow trade colleagues as part of my LIFE work :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Now remember all, we can't turn the world around in 24 hours, or even in a year. But we can educate a few and they can educate a few and so on. 

The internet can serve it's purpose, and when anyone can, like George did, post a hack picture on FB (doesn't have to be one of these of mine - I am sure you all run across this sh!t often enough) and everyone replies that it is just awful, then people will start to pass the word around.

George, what you could do is post a picture of well painted trim along with that one and show people what type of work they should expect.

If people really don't know the difference, SHOW them. And social networks are a great place to start.


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## workin'man (Jan 18, 2013)

Most people know you get what you pay for! Some wealthy clients that I have worked for take the low bid.... hell I have a client that lists $49mil properties and she loves to short me on payday, and negotiate the contract price. What a b!tch some people get what they deserve!

I am above these people I work for the middle class.... there are more middle calss people that pay for quality!


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok, so the people that commented on that pic think the work is sub-par. Now ask them what they would pay to correct it, if they would even pay at all.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Ramsden Painting said:


> You all should be working right now
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


I took Monday off.Worked two jobs last week one day painting store fronts of a strip mall.The second was at night painting a store inside the local mall.Monday off was well deserved.No shortage of work for me.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> LOVE it George.
> 
> I SOOOO wanted to comment on Jonathan Ross' "I will give credit to the wallpaper guy..trimming that must have been fun", but then the brain started working again :thumbup:


I know you wanted to comment there.
The power of social media...
Let's say we have a serious trade issue we all agree on,
what if it went on all our Facebook walls?
Or we share somebody's.
No political action, no worries, just common trade issues we can educate consumers about.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> Now remember all, we can't turn the world around in 24 hours, or even in a year. But we can educate a few and they can educate a few and so on.
> 
> The internet can serve it's purpose, and when anyone can, like George did, post a hack picture on FB (doesn't have to be one of these of mine - I am sure you all run across this sh!t often enough) and everyone replies that it is just awful, then people will start to pass the word around.
> 
> ...


My post later was similar, didn't read yours first.
Good idea. I will let this run it's (paid) course.
Then I will find a well painted piece of trim it doesn't have to be mine,
(I have seen pictures of amazing work here) 
and have a comparison post.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George Z said:


> I know you wanted to comment there.
> The power of social media...
> Let's say we have a serious trade issue we all agree on,
> what if it went on all our Facebook walls?
> ...


Good idea.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

daArch said:


> With these type of hacks running around, the profession does get a bad reputation.
> 
> What to do about it ? I do not know. It's an uphill battle fighting what a HO sees every day on their walls and trim.


 
I believe the home owners are the blame. They want THAT low price and they get exactly what they pay for -- every time. They need to investigate a company before hiring them...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

MuraCoat said:


> I believe the home owners are the blame. They want THAT low price and they get exactly what they pay for -- every time. They need to investigate a company before hiring them...


My folks would have no clue as to how to 'investigate' a company. One of my competitors was starting to get a whole string of nasty feedback from clients on his google business listings. So, he took it down. So people use to know to not hire this guy, now they don't. That's the power of marketing, you can re-invent yourself constantly on unsuspecting customers.


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## paint_booger (Jul 1, 2007)

It hurts to look at those pics! Wow! Disgraceful!


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> looks like typical work to me, I know a way to fight the battle. Put these pictures up on yours website with an explanation that this is what you get when you accept many of the lower bids out there. I've spent many an hour sanding down trim just like that, and no it's not a 'scuff' sand, it's spending a good 20 minutes per side of door frame with 100 grit to get that crap down flat.


A little trick my dad taught me was to spit on the corner of ur sandpaper and wetsand it. The boogers come right off.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

plainpainter said:


> My folks would have no clue as to how to 'investigate' a company. One of my competitors was starting to get a whole string of nasty feedback from clients on his google business listings. So, he took it down. So people use to know to not hire this guy, now they don't. That's the power of marketing, you can re-invent yourself constantly on unsuspecting customers.


Request: 


State license 
[*]insurance certificate 
[*]certificate of trade name 
[*]Contact the better business bureau. 
[*]References 
[*]Photos of work 
[*]A detailed proposal 
[*]ask question
[*]online reviews
- condition of vehicle
- Do not go with the lowest bid!


Yes, I understabd that there is no fool proof way of NOT getting screwed


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bill,
Just curious if you know for sure that the last painters were totally responsible for that mess. We've all been on jobs, especially in older homes, where due to poor work done in the past (often DIYer activity) there's an accumulation of the kind of stuff seen in your pictures. Even though we know what should be done to make it right, sometimes all the HO wants is for it to look fresh and clean and isn't willing to pay for the correct type of prep. It's frustrating for those of us who want to do it properly but sometimes that's the reality. Just a thought.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Dan,

I am sure some of that mess was there before and was just painted over (begging the question, "ever held a piece of sandpaper"?). But if you look at the brush marks, the lack of even coverage, the nail holes, the spatters of paint on the floor, and the poor cutting in of the base to the floor and also consider the cleaning lady had to scrape paint off the glass, one can easily surmise the last painter was a hack.

I do understand that "older homes" have lots of wear and tear that would take quite a bit of work to be remedied. This house was built in 1957 and the areas I was working on were definitely a lot more recent. I guessed that what I saw was the second time it was painted.

And if it were a number of painting contractors over a number of years that had performed substandard work, that even more greatly supports a HO's notion that ANYONE can paint. It would indicate to them that this crap is the norm, NOT the exception.

Also, it is my experience that a HO who is NOT willing to pay for correct prep isn't going to be willing to pay for expensive wallpaper and even more for an expensive installation.


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## hotwing7 (Mar 31, 2012)

good grief that's terrible  I always (or wherever possible) do a walkthrough with the ho when a job is finished so I can see they are satisfied. I wouldn't have walked Stevie Wonder through that one. :no:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

You,as the professional, could have fixed the problem with a few leftover scraps.
..but I guess maybe it was simpler to just blame us hack painters and leave it.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

daArch said:


> LOVE it George.
> 
> I SOOOO wanted to comment on Jonathan Ross' "I will give credit to the wallpaper guy..trimming that must have been fun", but then the brain started working again :thumbup:


Then you have to love Schmidts post and probably want to throttle Dave Mac:thumbup:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> You,as the professional, could have fixed the problem with a few leftover scraps.
> ..but I guess maybe it was simpler to just blame us hack painters and leave it.


Steve,

I see you found the original photo of Bills work... before he photo shopped it.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> Steve,
> 
> I see you found the original photo of Bills work... before he photo shopped it.


heh
I hesitated...not wanting to make my old buddy mad.
BTW
Anyone that would like to see some amazing wallpaper-work, click on daArches website/portfolio.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I wonder if Bill would paper over real boogers too?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> I wonder if Bill would paper over real boogers too?


I suppose snot. (Mudboned??).

Between reading this and the "I must be a hack" thread, I'm starting to wonder if we need a PT "Hall of Shame" Gallery, where we can post photos of some of the most hackish work we've encountered.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> I suppose snot. (Mudboned??).
> 
> Between reading this and the "I must be a hack" thread, I'm starting to wonder if we need a PT "Hall of Shame" Gallery, where we can post photos of some of the most hackish work we've encountered.


Go ahead and start it :yes:. I'm thinking it would eclipse Steve's OPPU thread in about a week. Sorry Steve.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> heh
> I hesitated...not wanting to make my old buddy mad.
> BTW
> Anyone that would like to see some amazing wallpaper-work, click on daArches website/portfolio.


Man, you go and put out a great slam on Bill and then go and ruin it with a weak-assed "backing-off" post. Jeesh.  :whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

MIZZOU said:


> Hacks are nothing more then con artists, and con artist have been doing this since forever. We've all seen the quality (or lack there of) of hack painters. I am still amazed by the amount of ridiculous work I see when I go and bid jobs. A hacks goal is not to exceed a customers expectations, fulfill contract obligations, perform quality work, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I'd say that 30-40% of what I consider lifelong clients of mine have came from initial jobs that I fixed from a previous hack painter. Looking at it this way, I am somewhat thankful for hack painters. These clients have seen what kind of quality and professionalism comes from the hacks, and once they hire someone like most of us on here, it's almost a shoe in that they become customers for life.


 A shoe in?Meaning penny loafer?:blink:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

mudbone said:


> A shoe in?Meaning penny loafer?:blink:


Mudbones' comment made me wonder, why is it "shoo-in" and not "shoe-in"? Thanks to the internet, here's an answer:

http://grammarist.com/spelling/shoo-in/

PaintTalk is more than just painting....


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

mudbone said:


> A shoe in?Meaning penny loafer?:blink:


At least it's pronounced the same


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

mudbone said:


> A shoe in?Meaning penny loafer?:blink:


like this??? :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

*follow up*

I sent an invoice to the HO and received this reply:

"We are so happy with your work, I have to say that among all the people I had working in this house you're the most professional and caring, honestly."

This tells me that she, as I feared, did not know that there were trades people out there who were capable of performing their jobs at a higher level that what she has seen.

Imagine that she felt this rude crude paperhanging hack 'n' fraud was the MOST professional to have worked in that house !

We really do need to do something to educate the general public.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

The place we're working in now is where we also did some work two years ago. Some major remodeling was being done then and the contractor was using a painter that the HO had become unhappy with so she called us in to do all the walls and ceiling work on the job. In the meantime the first guy was completing the baseboards off site and was scheduled to come back after we were done and install and finish them. This is what I'm seeing there now.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Looks fine ,out around 50 yards or so.:whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Looks fine ,out around 50 yards or so.:whistling2:


That's what the entire entry and entire lower floor area looks like and seeing it every day drives me nuts. Fortunately, *we're* doing the all trim in the newly remodeled areas (master bedroom, bath, closet, and adjoining sunroom) that are being painted now. I'm waiting for the chance to politely suggest we can touch up the older areas if they're interested. The wall paint that was used then is on site and still results in a clean match.


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

In line with the prevalent mentality among homeowners, I forsee you suggesting straightening out the wall/base transition and in reply they ask "What's wrong with it??" lol.....

Sad thing is that would be the reply from the guys who painted it to I bet, sheesh!


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

That's caulk we're seeing, right?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

researchhound said:


> The place we're working in now is where we also did some work two years ago. Some major remodeling was being done then and the contractor was using a painter that the HO had become unhappy with so she called us in to do all the walls and ceiling work on the job. In the meantime the first guy was completing the baseboards off site and was scheduled to come back after we were done and install and finish them. This is what I'm seeing there now.


Looks good from Chicago!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> That's caulk we're seeing, right?


Yes. Apparently it didn't occur to them that they could touch it up after they were done.


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## ducky (Feb 15, 2013)

I feel this problem is a multi faced problem..

1) the news doesn't help legit contractors. Regardless of feild at all. They never show that legit contractors charge more, but generally do a better job than hacks. They always show how consumer X got ripped off by the big bad contractor 

2) when you can't make it in any other market, or you lose your job due to a crappy economy, you pack up the family minivan and become a tried and true contractor :blink:

3) most people do not and can not even begin to understand what it takes, to start a business, much less stay in business. They feel that, we are all out to rip them off... I have veered into these conversations before with customers of mine... And when you educate them on the costs, their first reaction is that you are lying to them, no way could it be that expensive.... Then you show them the bill.. :blink:

4) unlike most other trades, people veiw painting as easy work. With out realizing that to be a good painter, with a quality end product, requires that 90% of the job is prep work. Alot of people don't understand that as a painter, the 'painting' end of your business, is the least part of it. Scraping, sanding, caulking, priming, replacing X, muddying, taping ect...anyone can slap paint on a wall.. Few do the required steps to leave a professional looking, quality job.

5) this part I have ran into first hand... You can buy a van, used for $2500 for another $300 you can have magnets made up. Tada! Pro painter! Not only that, but you can Rent all the 'big equipment' like ladders, scaffolding, sprayers, ect... Where as your legit guys, generally own all that equipment... Which costs real money to buy, and maintain. An added expense most wannabe's don't even bother with....

In my case, all my equipment is stenciled and clean looking, not necessarily new, but in good shape. It also doesn't say United Rental on it

Few homeowners realize there is more to it than that, and those of us who are trying to get a reputation for good work, spend a little more time energy Nd money trying to make their lives better. I try to work for only those that appreciate a good job. I have turned people down, who wanted us to 'just paint it'. I have also garnered one of my best customers, because I refused to 'just paint it' :thumbsup: he said those who refuse to do crap work, are those who last the longest.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ducky said:


> I feel this problem is a multi faced problem..
> 4) unlike most other trades, people veiw painting as easy work. With out realizing that to be a good painter, with a quality end product, requires that 90% of the job is prep work. Alot of people don't understand that as a painter, the 'painting' end of your business, is the least part of it. Scraping, sanding, caulking, priming, replacing X, muddying, taping ect...anyone can slap paint on a wall.. Few do the required steps to leave a professional looking, quality job.


I think this is always a big part of educating our clients. Take the baseboard example in my post above. They had the base boards for this phase of the project sprayed off site two years ago when they did the others for the first phase - then they just put the baseboards in storage until they were needed for this phase. When I bid the job the HO said, "The baseboards are already painted so we don't need to factor those in to the bid." At that point I really felt she thought that the baseboards would just be put up and that would be it.

Okay, they _were_ painted two years ago, but now that they've been installed there are the nail holes to patch and then sand, prime, and sand again. Corners to fill, gaps to be caulked at the top of the baseboards, a top coat to be applied, and then the walls to be touched up.The actual painting is just a part of what needs to be done.

Once all of this was brought up to her it resulted in a nice little add on for us. Lucky for her we were in a position to push our next job out a few days.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

MuraCoat said:


> I believe the home owners are the blame. They want THAT low price and they get exactly what they pay for -- every time. They need to investigate a company before hiring them...


 What about the homeowners who pay a high price and dont get what they want?You dont always get exactly what you pay for!:no:


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Yes. Apparently it didn't occur to them that they could touch it up after they were done.


Or just put some frickin tape on the wall so it would at least be a straight line. :bangin:


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## marc floyd (Jan 3, 2013)

Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?

And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

marc floyd said:


> Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?
> 
> And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


See, and some say there's nothing new to be learned on PT.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

marc floyd said:


> Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?
> 
> And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


 
huh?:001_huh:


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

marc floyd said:


> Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?
> 
> And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


Wow thanks bud.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

marc floyd said:


> Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?
> 
> And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


 Air chisel?:blink:


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## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

Looks like the work of a homeowner. I just finished a job that looked worse then this. The woodwork was a mess and there isn't really a way to fix it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

marc floyd said:


> Now, tape goes on the caulk/top of base, right?
> 
> And a sharp chisel does wonders for old paint blobs and bumps, then sand...


IMO, a good _sharp_ chisel is a great tool for removing old paint drips. The bevel of the chisel and the overall heft and weight of it give you a nice level of control allowing you to shave away small amounts without digging into the body of the trim. I've seen guys using razor blades to do the same thing, while others just prefer to sand away. But having a quality chisel on hand can save you a lot of time and provide a higher quality job in most instances. Though it usually doesn't work as well on curved surfaces as it does on flat ones.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> IMO, a good _sharp_ chisel is a great tool for removing old paint drips. The bevel of the chisel and the overall heft and weight of it give you a nice level of control allowing you to shave away small amounts without digging into the body of the trim. I've seen guys using razor blades to do the same thing, while others just prefer to sand away. But having a quality chisel on hand can save you a lot of time and provide a higher quality job in most instances. Though it usually doesn't work as well on curved surfaces as it does on flat ones.


Years ago, I took a timber-framing class, hoping to use those new skills on some projects on our tree farm. That hasn't happened yet, but I've put those sharp 1 1/2" and 2" chisels to work on plenty of situations like you described. The same guy who made the chisels makes a slick, and I thought it would come in handy for dealing with goobers on base, since I wouldn't have to bend over.

http://barrtools.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BT&Product_Code=SLL&Category_Code=SLG


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I love blades. I love sharp blades. I love to sharpen blades.

In elementary school shop class (manual training) someone was complaining (may have been me, may have not, too long ago) about the lack of good sand paper. The teacher asked, "what do you think they used BEFORE sand paper was invented". If I remember correctly there was a short discussion - or maybe I only discussed it in my own mind. But whatever the facts are, the question stuck with me.

Before sand paper, people used smoothing tools, at one point most likely broken glass or sharp edges of rock.

I worked for a very brief period of time in a cabinet shop, and one intense "discussion" was about the use of a wood scraper (sharpened) to flush the face frame edge to the carcass vs use of an orbital sander. Tried as I did to show the other how a well sharpened manual tool can better perform than an electric driven vibrator, I still could not even get him to try something that our forefathers found to be best.

The art of the use of a sharpened metal edge, keeping it sharp, the angle of attack, and all other aspects of wood shavers and chisels is something that can not be lost. 

We in this trade all are reliant on scrapers and keeping them sharp.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I think using a hand planer is fast becoming a lost art. I can remember having to sharpen plane blades in wood class and really hating it. Looking back I realize that there was a lot of value in what that teacher was trying to teach us.
But of course we fourteen year olds new better than that at the time.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


>



I want one.


One of my father's tools that I most lusted after was his 8" draw knife, 










next time I'm down at the house, I should "inherit" it, as long as brother Sandy already hasn't


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> I think using a hand planer is fast becoming a lost art. I can remember having to sharpen plane blades in wood class and really hating it. Looking back I realize that there was a lot of value in what that teacher was trying to teach us.
> But of course we fourteen year olds new better than that at the time.


ever install cedar shingles? The small Stanley plane was ESSENTIAL.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> I want one.
> 
> 
> One of my father's tools that I most lusted after was his 8" draw knife,
> ...


If your brother has beat you to it, Barr makes some very nice drawknives:

http://barrtools.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BT&Product_Code=CMDK&Category_Code=DK


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Never have done that. I imagine for that type of work the Stanley would work fine although usually their quality of tools are pretty low. I've seen pictures of quality planes that can run into hundreds of dollars and can only imagine what could be accomplished by one in the hands of a true craftsman.

My cousin's husband inherited all of his wood working tools from his father who was a carpenter for Boeing when it was originally founded. He has pictures of his dad working in the "Red Barn" which was the original structure where Boeing began. It's actually been relocated to be part of the Air and Space Museum at Boeing Field and is a pretty neat place to visit.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Never have done that. I imagine for that type of work the Stanley would work fine although usually their quality of tools are pretty low. I've seen pictures of quality planes that can run into hundreds of dollars and can only imagine what could be accomplished by one in the hands of a true craftsman.
> 
> My cousin's husband inherited all of his wood working tools from his father who was a carpenter for Boeing when it was originally founded. He has pictures of his dad working in the "Red Barn" which was the original structure where Boeing began. It's actually been relocated to be part of the Air and Space Museum at Boeing Field and is a pretty neat place to visit.


When I'm finally able to put my PowerBall Tool Acquisition Plan into effect, these guys will be the real winners:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=505

Thanks for the tip about the Boeing museum, we'll check it out.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> My cousin's husband inherited all of his wood working tools from his father who was a carpenter for Boeing when it was originally founded. He has pictures of his dad working in the "Red Barn" which was the original structure where Boeing began. It's actually been relocated to be part of the Air and Space Museum at Boeing Field and is a pretty neat place to visit.


I just went moist :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> I just went moist :thumbup:


That could be more information than I need Bill. :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> If your brother has beat you to it, Barr makes some very nice drawknives:
> 
> http://barrtools.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BT&Product_Code=CMDK&Category_Code=DK


sure, but did my grandfather own it first ? And if Sandy has it, it is in MUCH better hands than mine. He is far and above a way better wood worker than I am in my wildest fantasies


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> That could be more information than I need Bill. :whistling2:


you must understand, I own oodles of Boeing.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> you must understand, I own oodles of Boeing.


So, when you plan that trip to come out and go micro-brewery hopping with me, you'll have to allow yourself some time to run up to Seattle and take that place in. It really is a great museum.

Though I do find it interesting to note in the pictures that they were converting from strictly hand held tools to belt driven planes, saws, sanders, etc.. Imagine it had to do with mass production techniques that were becoming a necessity.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

sounds like a plan.

Do trains still run from MA to OR ????


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Probably. I know there's one from here to Seattle.


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## marc floyd (Jan 3, 2013)

Chisels, who'da thunk it?
Glad I could help.
But about that post/pic of the textured wall baseboard caulk job; would you tape a straight line, then finish the wall color? If the caulk has cured, of course. Do experienced trim painters do it without tape?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

marc floyd said:


> Chisels, who'da thunk it?
> Glad I could help.
> But about that post/pic of the textured wall baseboard caulk job; would you tape a straight line, then finish the wall color? If the caulk has cured, of course. Do experienced trim painters do it without tape?


 
TAPE:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

marc floyd said:


> Chisels, who'da thunk it?
> Glad I could help.
> But about that post/pic of the textured wall baseboard caulk job; would you tape a straight line, then finish the wall color? If the caulk has cured, of course. Do experienced trim painters do it without tape?


There is an introduction page so you can introduce yourself and tell us about your painting experience. 
To answer your question, no I don't use tape to paint baseboards.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

What's tape?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdaniels said:


> What's tape?


it's what music used to be recorded on :thumbup:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

daArch said:


> _it's what music used to be recorded on :thumbup:_




now that i would have expected from Mudbone


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Scotiadawg said:


> [/I][/U]
> 
> now that i would have expected from Mudbone


Good to hear from you SD. Hope things have been improving.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> it's what music used to be recorded on :thumbup:


I thought that was vinyl... Not acrylic mind you. That stuff is too hard for recording on.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Scotiadawg said:


> [/I][/U]
> 
> now that i would have expected from Mudbone


 
7 words to many


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## tadgerfan (Mar 4, 2012)

scottjr said:


> There is an introduction page so you can introduce yourself and tell us about your painting experience.
> To answer your question, no I don't use tape to paint baseboards.


still don't know what ya'll are complaining about? (scratches head...):whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> 7 words to many


says the pot


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## jerseypainter (Dec 6, 2012)

I always do a walk through and point out to HO that sanding down and repairing ****ty paint work will be extra . Some people don't care and just want a fresh coat...


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