# Priced too low



## Hemlock (May 29, 2013)

I priced an exterior job in the spring for $6800. Got the job, took a deposit. Now that's it's time to do it I realized I was way off in my estimate. It's a $10,000 job. If I do it as is i will basically break even. Which is really a loss when I could be working on countless other projects that make profit. This is my first year pricing full exteriors and have learned my production now. What to do? I have to do the job. Can I ask for money up front? Should I wait till the jobs almost done? Or just suck it up and get it done for original price and move on. 




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## Gramps (May 24, 2012)

Just be honest with them. Let them know your pricing issue and see if there is room for negotiation. BBut also make it clear you will stick to your word and do the job for the original estimate if preferred. I've done this a few times and found most people are reasonable. Good luck.


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## Shakey0818 (Feb 1, 2012)

U already took a deposit.I would not ask anymore till you get some work done.I never take a deposit until right when i start a job.Suck it up and chalk it off as a lesson learned.Why should the customer pay for your shortcomings?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

They gave you a deposit to secure your services for the price you gave them. My take is you need to suck it up and do the job for the amount agreed upon. Consider it the cost of an education.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Before you talk to the home owner, try to put yourself in his/her shoes. It's possible your bid was way lower than the others, and they are very generous, nice people. If that's the case, then asking for more money might go over okay. Most likely though, you will be met with resistance. That could in turn set the stage for a very bad job for you. I would probably just do it as is.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I would tell them it was a mistake and you realize it now. Show them how much it is, this isn't a few hundred bucks. Ask if they got other estimates and if yours was really lower. They may lie and say no, but you do have the option to refund the deposit and walk.

It was a deposit just to put them on schedule right?


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## Hemlock (May 29, 2013)

Yes deposit to be on the list. I can't walk and leave them this late in the season looking for a new painter. We have a really good reputation and I want to keep it. In the end it is my error that has caused this problem but it sure is hard to start a project you know your going to lose on. I feel like my best option is to get 3/4 done and let them know we went way over budget and see if we can work something out. If they say no then thats that. 


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I will be honest I wouldn't worry about my reputation being ruined by something like this. What are they going to do tell everyone you made a $3200 clerical error and didn't honor the price? 

It was an estimating error and work has not begun. Now is the time to discuss this not when you are almost done.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Try this approach:

You call them to go over the scope of work in person one final time before work commences. When you get there, do your walk around comparing numbers, and say out loud why is this number here? Point it out and let them know there must have been a typo and the new price.

Ease them into it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Hemlock said:


> Yes deposit to be on the list. I can't walk and leave them this late in the season looking for a new painter. We have a really good reputation and I want to keep it. In the end it is my error that has caused this problem but it sure is hard to start a project you know your going to lose on. I feel like my best option is to get 3/4 done and let them know we went way over budget and see if we can work something out. If they say no then thats that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


As one my attorney friends sums up contract law, "a deal's a deal and sometimes you have to take your medicine". This sounds like one of those times. Get it done and move one...but don't forget the lesson.


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## MSJ Painting (Jan 27, 2013)

Gough said:


> As one my attorney friends sums up contract law, "a deal's a deal and sometimes you have to take your medicine". This sounds like one of those times. Get it done and move one...but don't forget the lesson.


I payed my crew members more than i made on a couple jobs...doesn't happen any more...my mistake, my problem...i have also made wayyy more money than i should on jobs i overbid...didnt offer a discount there, so...

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## Gramps (May 24, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> I will be honest I wouldn't worry about my reputation being ruined by something like this. What are they going to do tell everyone you made a $3200 clerical error and didn't honor the price?
> 
> It was an estimating error and work has not begun. Now is the time to discuss this not when you are almost done.


This. 

No harm in having a discussion now.


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

Hemlock said:


> If I do it as is i will basically break even.


FYI: Breaking even is WINNING in the painting business


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I guess another way to view this is to ask yourself how you'd feel if it was them coming to you for a lower price than you bid it after giving you a deposit and taking up a slot on your schedule.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

your quote is an offer of a contract with the homeowner and if he accepted it and paid a deposit you are liable to get sued if you pull out.


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## Hemlock (May 29, 2013)

I won't pull out. They are lawyers. Trying to find a way to get more $. What the jobs worth. 


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Its happened to everyone on this forum and I recently made an error with pricing a large exterior.
You just have to cop it on the chin brother.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Its happened to everyone on this forum and I recently made an error with pricing a large exterior.
> You just have to cop it on the chin brother.


Yep. Even after 40 years I can still screw up a bid. Maybe not to the tune of $3500, but I can definitely still mess up.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Especially being relatively new to the game. Underbidding is par for the course. Whether on purpose, just to get work, or by mistake, due to inexperience. Sticking by your word will do wonders for your reputation. A bit similar to going back to do warranty work. This is the kind of challenge that separates the men from the boys, and patience is the name of the game.


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## 12th man (Mar 18, 2014)

I was just in the same situation with an interior. The rooms were full of furniture when I gave my estimate. When I started the job and had the rooms empty I quickly realized I made a mistake. I bit the bullet and did not ask for more money. It was a lesson I needed to learn. I ended up getting a referral for another job out of it


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

I made a mistake on an exterior bid by leaving a 0 off. $10700. bid turned out to be $1070.00 Did not notice this problem until 2nd day on job. Took my quote book immediately to the homeowner & showed them my mistake & offered to do the job at 1/2 price. They never questioned a thing & said they would pay full price & understood the mistake.
So maybe you could try this approach & say you made a mistake ??


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Scannell Painting said:


> I made a mistake on an exterior bid by leaving a 0 off. $10700. bid turned out to be $1070.00 Did not notice this problem until 2nd day on job. Took my quote book immediately to the homeowner & showed them my mistake & offered to do the job at 1/2 price. They never questioned a thing & said they would pay full price & understood the mistake.
> So maybe you could try this approach & say you made a mistake ??


Hmmm so the client already knew your quote was mistaken? Or they thought it made no difference to pay 10 times the quoted amount?


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I agree with you 3rd coat, very hard to believe your story Scannell.


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

lol thats a whooper... thats not possible


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

This is part of doing business. There is no guarantee that you will profit on every job.Some you win some you loose.
RH is absolutely 100% correct.Very unprofessional and unacceptable in any contractual situation.
If everything worked that way I would just wait til we finished a project and tell the HO that I didn't allow for enough hours so they owe me more money

Suck it up butter cup!


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

The way you handle this will show your level of professional work your company offers ...

1) Tell them your mistake and ask for more money ...
( your company now is a bait & switch company, gives low price them charges more )

2) Tell them your mistake and ask for more money ...
( You raise the question if your company is qualified to do the job, bad way to start a job and you leave them wondering what else you left out ) 

3) Refund deposit, walk away
( Wasted homeowners time, your company does not stand behind their word )

4) Go in kick azz, give them a quality job and show them your company is a solid, professional company 
( easy to say when it's not my money )

Good luck we've all been there let us know how it works out. My story like this was losing $3,000 on a job a few years ago and i mean i pulled $3,000 out of my pocket to finish a job.

ONE TIME, i learned a hard lesson and it will never happen again


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

Brian C said:


> I agree with you 3rd coat, very hard to believe your story Scannell.


That's fine, but true. Happened 6 years ago used Duration & still looks great:thumbsup:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Scannell Painting said:


> I made a mistake on an exterior bid by leaving a 0 off. $10700. bid turned out to be $1070.00 Did not notice this problem until 2nd day on job. Took my quote book immediately to the homeowner & showed them my mistake & offered to do the job at 1/2 price. They never questioned a thing & said they would pay full price & understood the mistake.
> So maybe you could try this approach & say you made a mistake ??


This would be an easier mistake for a ho to understand. Who in there right mind wouldn't see that all other bids were around $10,000 and your was way out of wake. An obvious typo


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Theres nothing wrong with telling them your mistake, and STLL doing the job as quoted.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Thats a big difference in price

They gave you a deposit in good faith in exchange for your services

What did you miss in your estimate??

I would agree with most to suck it up and do the job

You yourself said your not losing money

It happens-keep the customer happy

www.dunritepropertyservices.com
www.powerwashingwestfield.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

The 3rd Coat said:


> Especially being relatively new to the game. Underbidding is par for the course. Whether on purpose, just to get work, or by mistake, due to inexperience. Sticking by your word will do wonders for your reputation. A bit similar to going back to do warranty work. This is the kind of challenge that separates the men from the boys, and patience is the name of the game.


For some outfits, that's their business model...along with cutting every corner they can.:whistling2:


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

look at the flip side... if you quoted 10K and was able to get the project done for 6K, would you return money to the client??

Take your lumps, and hope to even it out over time.some jobs are winners, some losers.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

lessons learned


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Hard to believe some of the answers from several long time members.

The other guys that bid the job are probably still wondering how can someone make money charging $3200 less. :lol:


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

I believe u scannell. More than likely, the HO ardy knew what happened, and were just waiting for u to catch it. The people who dont believe ya pry just wouldnt have the ballz to admit a mistake like that.

OP, man up an get er dun! Some typos and clerical errors can be voided out of contracts (legally and tactfully) but this is not the case in your situation. You simply werent up to snuff on your production rates. And your own fault. 

A job im just finishing, was estimated at 530 hours. We are currently at 942 as of this am. Also missed was the fact that its prevailing wage... bout 23 bucks an hour more than we budgeted for. Coulda bought myself a year at harvard....


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

LA Painter said:


> FYI: Breaking even is WINNING in the painting business


Ill agree to disagree.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

bryceraisanen said:


> Ill agree to disagree.


It may not be wining, but it certain is ahead of the curve! So it just looks like winning when you look at most of the other outfits.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Brian C said:


> Its happened to everyone on this forum and I recently made an error with pricing a large exterior.
> You just have to cop it on the chin brother.


I doubt it would ever go that far

However, the bigger picture and more important issue is maintaining your integrity as a professional contractor

I dont necessarily disagree with asking for more money, ive done it, however its how its presented and if they balk the honorable thing to do is do the job

That is a big discrepancy though and i as a homeowner would wonder what else are you going to screw up on


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

Brian C said:


> your quote is an offer of a contract with the homeowner and if he accepted it and paid a deposit you are liable to get sued if you pull out.


This is what my previous post was responding too


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Gough said:


> It may not be wining, but it certain is ahead of the curve! So it just looks like winning when you look at most of the other outfits.


Understood. Ill make sure not to lower my expectations.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Couldn't you just go work this job with one other guy and send your crew out to another job? Then on an hourly rate you would still profit. Work longer days. Call a friend who paints and see if tye would take the job?
Also it sounds like some on here should be more careful on their bids. There is no reason to get in a hurry when looking over jobs. I have made a few errors before but I have always made out well, not as well as I could gave, but no where near breaking even or losing anything.



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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I am in the Schmidt camp. Just make sure you do not GUILT them or EXPECT them to pay any more. 

Accept the fact you own it and if something falls your way, consider it karma for being professional. 

And as RH said, the cost of education.

You ain't the first and you won't be the last to learn in the school of hard knocks. Welcome to the world. :thumbsup: You just busted your cherry :thumbup:


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

A few years ago I did a complete repaint of a gutted condo for a builder that a drywall company referred to me. I bid the job off of a primitive drawing in a PDF. I didn't ask the right questions and bid the job for half of where I should have been. This was a condo in a big complex in an upscale area. I did not say a word and did a quality job. The builder was happy, the new owner was happy.
Two or three months later the builder calls me to bid another unit in the same complex almost identical to the previous one. I bid the job and it was more than double the cost of the first one I lost my shirt on, he did ask why and I told him. I've been doing numerous projects for him and referrals from the condo owners.
If these customers are lawyers suck it up and give them a quality job for the price you gave them, there's a good chance you'll get some good referrals from them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't understand how anyone, given the choice, would accept slave labor. And I don't see how a small claims court would agree with anyone who forces another to perform labor with no compensation.

An estimating error occured before the project was started. The responsible thing to do would be to promptly notify the homeowner of the error. If they don't agree to the price adjustment, apologize for any inconvenience and remove yourself from the job. If they threaten you with a small claims suit, tell them you'll see them in court with a counter suit for emotional distress for demanding that you work for them without compensation.

Its not like you discovered you under bid the job half way through, and now want more money. Which, could be misconstrued as gouging.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I don't understand how anyone, given the choice, would accept slave labor. And I don't see how a small claims court would agree with anyone who forces another to perform labor with no compensation. An estimating error occured before the project was started. The responsible thing to do would be to promptly notify the homeowners of the error. If they don't agree to the price adjustment, apologize for any inconvenience and remove youeself from the job. If they threaten you with a small claims suit, tell them you'll see them in court with a counter suit for emotional distress for demanding you work for them without compensation.


Of course U have got to be kidding. 
I could see if the OP hadn't taken a deposit ducking out of the job. Now he's been holding their money for however long it took him to get there. And holding them hostage to him by taking that money. And Yeh they let him hold them hostage by giving it to him.....


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

CApainter said:


> *I don't understand how anyone, given the choice, would accept slave labor. And I don't see how a small claims court would agree with anyone who forces another to perform labor with no compensation*.


Your absolutely correct-No court is going to mandate a job be done if no work has been performed.

Does anybody want to end up in court over this?/

What are the options?- 

1. Ask for more money
2. Refuse to do the job at that price (which you agreed on)
3. Suck it up, do the job and move on (which you say you wont lose money)


Its just bad business to refuse the job you messed up on

to me, your reputation is at stake here as an honorable guy

i think option 3


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DunriteNJ said:


> Your absolutely correct-No court is going to mandate a job be done if no work has been performed.
> 
> Does anybody want to end up in court over this?/
> 
> ...


I would argue that honorable or not, it isn't fair to the homeowner to have someone performing work for them that drastically underbid the job. There is no way the worker will have the morale or incentive to do a good job.

Plus, no one likes a sad painter. They're all mopey with cry baby eyes and frowny faces. Real downers.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Only cause it is funny.
All of the jobs I have run. And been on. My employers first and go to tactic. 'The estimator missed x.' Lol
X could be all of the trim on a 100 thousand sq ft building, or the first three floors altogether on a ten floor building. Or the deck. Or the floor coatings. Whatever. On and on.

It's how they make u feel rushed. Give u a sense of urgency to break ur back on the job.
And it is for to let the G.C. Know they won't be giving any freebies.
They always 'missed' something.
Works....


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Plus, no one likes a sad painter. They're all mopey with cry baby eyes and frowny faces. Real downers.


True Story.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Theres nothing wrong with telling them your mistake, and STLL doing the job as quoted.


This what I would consider doing. Give them a great job and if they are decent people maybe they will "tip" you. There are intangible pluses to doing this job. If you bail with a signed contract, the joy of Angie's List, Yelp and the like can still ruin your reputation. I would be pissed to the heavens if someone gave me a bid, signed the contract, then bailed because the bid was too low. It's a douchebag maneuver and reeks of being a hack or bait and switch con artist. If you do the job, they may not give you anything extra, but at least the power of your word and honor stays intact. That's what is missing from today's business world. The other positive is that I guarantee your efficiency will improve on this job. That's experience and positive business influence that will help you grow later.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I would argue that honorable or not, it isn't fair to the homeowner to have someone performing work for them that drastically underbid the job. There is no way the worker will have the morale or incentive to do a good job.
> 
> Plus, no one likes a sad painter. They're all mopey with cry baby eyes and frowny faces. Real downers.


I would think the homeowner would have to decide that

If it were me id tell the homeowner of my mistake

But i would also suck it up if they shrugged their shoulders


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm sure this has been brought up and summed up already but her I go anyway. 

Nose to the ground and stick to your price. Do a high quality job, then when you're shooting the breeze with the homeowner her and there just drop lines like: 'there was a lot more prep required than I thought to make it turn out like that'. 'Its hard to imagine this all took 24 tubes of caulking'. 'Sometimes it's worth it to use high quality paint, it really shows in the end'. 

No you're never going to make money, and you'll never see a tip that big. What you will get is great referrals. I've done exteriors only to get a call or 2 from neighbours looking to do the same. Sometimes I'm busy and throw out the 'ill squeeze you in for this price'. You know what, I often get the job too because they can see the work. Walking away would be bad, but doing a half azzed crappy job would be the worst


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Brian C said:


> I agree with you 3rd coat, very hard to believe your story Scannell.


You mean Scandal.:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> This what I would consider doing. Give them a great job and if they are decent people maybe they will "tip" you. There are intangible pluses to doing this job. If you bail with a signed contract, the joy of Angie's List, Yelp and the like can still ruin your reputation. I would be pissed to the heavens if someone gave me a bid, signed the contract, then bailed because the bid was too low. It's a douchebag maneuver and reeks of being a hack or bait and switch con artist. If you do the job, they may not give you anything extra, but at least the power of your word and honor stays intact. That's what is missing from today's business world. The other positive is that I guarantee your efficiency will improve on this job. That's experience and positive business influence that will help you grow later.


There lawyers for Christ sake!


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Hunker down, work hard, work smart, and see how it turns out. Maybe your original bid isn't as far off as you think. We've all done it, and we've all learned from our mistakes. Experience comes with a cost. Good luck!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Originally Posted by CApainter said:


> Plus, no one likes a sad painter. They're all mopey with cry baby eyes and frowny faces. Real downers.





straight_lines said:


> True Story.


I've been that painter on several occasions. It's not becoming of a true profess!onal.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> I would think the homeowner would have to decide that
> 
> If it were me id tell the homeowner of my mistake
> 
> But i would also suck it up if they shrugged their shoulders


__________________

Maybe its my age, but I'm getting tired of sucking it up, both figuratively and physically.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Unlike a large company, whose mass produced product can be recalled or returned due to a defect without a substantial hit to the companies bottom line, can painting contractors really afford to fall on their customer service swords every time they make an estimating error?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I don't understand how anyone, given the choice, would accept slave labor. And I don't see how a small claims court would agree with anyone who forces another to perform labor with no compensation.
> 
> An estimating error occured before the project was started. The responsible thing to do would be to promptly notify the homeowner of the error. If they don't agree to the price adjustment, apologize for any inconvenience and remove yourself from the job. If they threaten you with a small claims suit, tell them you'll see them in court with a counter suit for emotional distress for demanding that you work for them without compensation.
> 
> Its not like you discovered you under bid the job half way through, and now want more money. Which, could be misconstrued as gouging.



Well sure, if we're actually talking about estimates. In not so sure about a quote, which seems to often be really what we're talking about when we say estimate. I think it would depend on the wording of your contract. 

I can see a quote going up because of unforeseen market factors like a material price hike or a change in scope of work. But if its just that you made a bobo on your quote, idk. 


What if you ordered a cheeseburger, paid for it, and the clerk came back to you saying 'sorry it took longer than we thought to cook your burger, it needs to cost more now'


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Can we get a picture of job site?


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

DunriteNJ said:


> I would think the homeowner would have to decide that
> 
> If it were me id tell the homeowner of my mistake
> 
> But i would also suck it up if they shrugged their shoulders


Not my quote.........?:no:


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Gwarel said:


> Hunker down, work hard, work smart, and see how it turns out. Maybe your original bid isn't as far off as you think. We've all done it, and we've all learned from our mistakes. Experience comes with a cost. Good luck!



This one's mine, and I like it better......


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Well sure, if we're actually talking about estimates. In not so sure about a quote, which seems to often be really what we're talking about when we say estimate. I think it would depend on the wording of your contract.
> 
> I can see a quote going up because of unforeseen market factors like a material price hike or a change in scope of work. But if its just that you made a bobo on your quote, idk.
> 
> ...


One, I would eliminate any ideas of entertaining a law suit. And two, I would quickly take a bite out of the burger and say transfer of ownership has been completed. Too late for adjustments.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Hemlock said:


> I priced an exterior job in the spring for $6800. Got the job, took a deposit. Now that's it's time to do it I realized I was way off in my estimate. It's a $10,000 job. If I do it as is i will basically break even. Which is really a loss when I could be working on countless other projects that make profit. This is my first year pricing full exteriors and have learned my production now. What to do? I have to do the job. Can I ask for money up front? Should I wait till the jobs almost done? Or just suck it up and get it done for original price and move on.


I'm not busting on you Hemlock - we've all been at that place where we've under bid a job - but I do have some observations/questions.

Did you you bid the job in the spring when you probably weren't too busy (yet) and thought $6800 was just fine? And now, when you are busy as hell, you realize that you could be doing other jobs that will pay more? If so, that's not exactly a new scenario for anyone who's been in this business for long.

Since you did bid it for $6800 in the spring (and it wasn't just an error), what makes you think it's now a $10,000 job? What epiphany were you suddenly struck with (other than that you are now super busy) that makes you think you were that far off with your original number? Sounds like you are still new to the bidding game and mistakes will continue to occur - it comes with being an owner. Regardless, it isn't the HO's problem, it's yours.

If I did screw up (and I have) in my bidding, the last thing I would consider doing is going hat in hand to the HO to tell them so. As was mentioned earlier, that portrays you as a bush league operator who doesn't know what he's doing. Not a good look for any business person and certainly not a way to inspire confidence in you from your customers.

Now, if it was just a clerical mistake, I would have to wonder how you could manage to put together a bid, write the bid up, submit it and explain it to the HO, draw up a contract (you do have a contract - right?), submit said contract, and collect a percentage based deposit - all without catching the mistake.

Finally, whatever happened to the notion of our word being our bond? Sure, most of us function in a business environment these days that is ruled by contracts. But the simple truth still remains that when you give your word to someone, that _should_ be it - end of story. No whining, no explaining that a mistake was made, no hoping that the customer will feel sorry for you because you are such a nice guy. You made a deal - so *honor* it. Will it make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Will it get you a round of applause from the HO's? Will it garner you a ton of referrals? NO, no, and no. But, IMHO, it's still the stand-up thing to do.

Ouch! Damn!!! That soap box was higher than I thought! :cursing:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> Not my quote.........?:no:


I made an error. I respectfully apologize. Can I repost with the correct username?


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I made an error. I respectfully apologize. Can I repost with the correct username?


Apology accepted, no problem. Please PM me the details on how to manipulate a post to another user, as this may be valuable info to me in the not so distant future.........


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

That is some good stuff RH! Too bad the practice of of honor and integrity has been replaced with maximum return for minimal exertion. (or widely referred to as MRFME).

You do bring up some interesting discrepancies.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> Apology accepted, no problem. Please PM me the details on how to manipulate a post to another user, as this may be valuable info to me in the not so distant future.........


OK! Between you and me:

1.) copy and paste the quote you want

2.) At the beginning of the quote, insert


I_like_pinacoladas(or what ever you choose) followed with this bracket said:


> It should look like this
> 
> 
> I_like_pinacoladas said:
> ...


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> OK! Between you and me:
> 
> 1.) copy and paste the quote you want
> 
> ...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> CApainter said:
> 
> 
> > OK! Between you and me:
> ...


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I would argue that honorable or not, it isn't fair to the homeowner to have someone performing work for them that drastically underbid the job. There is no way the worker will have the morale or incentive to do a good job.
> 
> Plus, no one likes a sad painter. They're all mopey with cry baby eyes and frowny faces. Real downers.



I disagree. In the past, I've lost my shirt on several jobs, some I knew from the start. Sometimes I told the custy about my error and sometimes not, but ALL of the time I gave em a quality job I could be proud of. 


My incentive to do a good job was the same as every other job...knowing how important it is to keep a good reputation and avoid a negative one 


Stelzer Painting Inc.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Ok, no hard feelings. I thought maybe you found out I voted for Jmays .....


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> i disagree. In the past, i've lost my shirt on several jobs, some i knew from the start. Sometimes i told the custy about my error and sometimes not, but all of the time i gave em a quality job i could be proud of.
> 
> 
> My incentive to do a good job was the same as every other job...knowing how important it is to keep a good reputation and avoid a negative one
> ...


bingo


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

Hemlock said:


> I priced an exterior job in the spring for $6800. Got the job, took a deposit. Now that's it's time to do it I realized I was way off in my estimate. It's a $10,000 job. If I do it as is i will basically break even. Which is really a loss when I could be working on countless other projects that make profit. This is my first year pricing full exteriors and have learned my production now. What to do? I have to do the job. Can I ask for money up front? Should I wait till the jobs almost done? Or just suck it up and get it done for original price and move on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know I am late in the game. You made the bid they accepted the offer. you take it in the shorts and move on. Live learn crash and burn. Always do the right thing even if it costs you money.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Someone brought up the evil word, "lawyers"

From recent personal experience (NOT in connection with work) , if an offer is submitted, a deposit is paid and/or an agreement is signed, and then either party backs out for any reason even WITH the deposit being refunded, a lawsuit can be filed and it WILL NOT be dismissed as frivolous. 

The catch phrase in the lawsuit will be something to the effect of, "fell below the standard of" 

And I guarantee legal fees to defend any position will be well above $3500.00


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Hemlock, 
Your first mistake wasn't messing up the bid. It was submitting a bid to two lawyers! 
I've blown plenty of exterior bids. I always did a good job, and am still going strong. I'm actually on one now I bid in March for $20K and now wish it was at least $30K. I'll still do ok on it, just not great. It's for an important contact and I didn't dare drop it. I wanted to. I had another job a month ago we averaged $100 per hour on, and as someone posted, we didn't offer a discount on that one. All part of the gig, tho you certainly wouldn't be the first painter to bail on a job. Just be sure to return the deposit if you do!! (I've never bailed, as I usually don't realize the error of my ways until the prep has started). 


Sent from my blah blah blah


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

The first job I ever booked I realized I made a mistake on my hours and added wrong, it was only 10 hours less. I felt like an idiot walking back in there after just getting the deposit check and asking for more money but I showed him my sheet and the error and he wrote me a new check!


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

AV Painting said:


> The first job I ever booked I realized I made a mistake on my hours and added wrong, it was only 10 hours less. I felt like an idiot walking back in there after just getting the deposit check and asking for more money but I showed him my sheet and the error and he wrote me a new check!


It happens

I know Ive missed stuff on quotes-sometimes short myself on shutters, doors,etc- closets on interior

Dont recall if i ever asked for more money on a misquoted job although i may have years ago

Never as big as a discrepancy as the original poster posted though


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I once had a $10,000 job but forgot a couple of zeros and had to do the job for $100.

Even though the paint alone was over a thousand, I sucked it up, and did a good job.

I did however use cheaper primer than I had originally planned.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> I once had a $10,000 job but forgot a couple of zeros and had to do the job for $100.
> 
> Even though the paint alone was over a thousand, I sucked it up, and did a good job.
> 
> I did however use cheaper primer than I had originally planned.


I can understand giving up labor time to fulfill some sort of martyrdom obligation, but I can't believe you would have paid $900.00 to paint someone's home. Particularly, if they had the means to pay for it themselves.

These numerous acts of selflessness, bequeath these hallowed PT halls with the anointed sacrificial coat of integrity, honor, and customer service.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> I once had a $10,000 job but forgot a couple of zeros and had to do the job for $100.
> 
> Even though the paint alone was over a thousand, I sucked it up, and did a good job.
> 
> I did however use cheaper primer than I had originally planned.


Its no wonder you can't get a new snow blower.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

That was on the exterior.

I figured I'd get some of the money back eventually, and sure enough he called me the next spring to paint a bathroom.

Of course when I quoted him $9900, he said never mind, and hired someone else.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> That was on the exterior.
> 
> I figured I'd get some of the money back eventually, and sure enough he called me the next spring to paint a bathroom.
> 
> Of course when I quoted him $9900, he said never mind, and hired someone else.


:furious: I hate you. I have coffee dripping from my nose.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> That was on the exterior.
> 
> I figured I'd get some of the money back eventually, and sure enough he called me the next spring to paint a bathroom.
> 
> Of course when I quoted him $9900, he said never mind, and hired someone else.


I think Steve has just hit on the perfect solution. 

Just proceed with the job at the agreed price and then try to upsell them on something small which is bid at T&M. Maybe an extra half bath, a door, a little touch-up on some baseboards, or evan a doghouse. Then, "Wham!", that extra $3200 suddenly appears on the final statement.

Mr. Richards, you continue to prove that you are the smartest businessman on PT. :notworthy:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Couldn't even imagine.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Couldn't even imagine.


Please to clarify?

* The OP asking for more money?

* That Edgar has coffee dripping out his nose?

* Or that SR may actually be the smartest businessman on PT?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Actually it's part of our marketing strategy. We always run specials all summer like that. 
'Whole exterior repaint, $700"
Then, after we sign and start painting I explain what I really meant was $3800.00.

They're always like, "oh you poor thing, here's multiple thousands of dollars we hadn't planned on spending."


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

RH said:


> They gave you a deposit to secure your services for the price you gave them. My take is you need to suck it up and do the job for the amount agreed upon. *Consider it the cost of an education*.


One underbid job doesn't make you a pro estimator. It takes years to become a good estimator. The reality is, the education process is an endless journey.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Bender said:


> Actually it's part of our marketing strategy. We always run specials all summer like that.
> 'Whole exterior repaint, $700"
> Then, after we sign and start painting I explain what I really meant was $3800.00.
> 
> They're always like, "oh you poor thing, here's multiple thousands of dollars we hadn't planned on spending."


sarcasm at it's finest:thumbsup:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Humble Abode said:


> Are you kidding me? Who makes it and where can I get it!?!


So, what did you decide to do?

Personally, if suck it up and do it. Learn from the mistake and move on. You're a new company, asking for more money cause you messed up the quote won't kill your reputation, but I doubt you'll be getting any referrals from them

Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

My question is what is your definition of an estimate and what is the customers definition of an estimate. 

To me when I have hired someone to do work on my house and they give an estimate I know the price is not set in stone and really would not complain if the price came in 10-15% higher. 

Now when I give a paint estimate I do not go over what is estimated I would just eat the cost and move on unless it is for some unknown factor prior to starting work that changes the scope of work.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

jacob33 said:


> My question is what is your definition of an estimate and what is the customers definition of an estimate.
> 
> To me when I have hired someone to do work on my house and they give an estimate I know the price is not set in stone and really would not complain if the price came in 10-15% higher.
> 
> Now when I give a paint estimate I do not go over what is estimated I would just eat the cost and move on unless it is for some unknown factor prior to starting work that changes the scope of work.


Yup, I am one of those who has a modicum of pride and will take a financial loss if my undervalued estimate was generated due to my mistake. Or maybe it was those damn ethical parents of mine that instilled in me their silly values.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I was recently on a job where the home owner and granite contractor had an argument over the definition of the word estimate. There was even a dictionary involved. It was rather uncomfortable to be painting while the argument was going on but somewhat comical. 

This was over a 4% increase over estimate. The granite company felt its was well within the realm of an estimate. The home owner felt differently. The typed estimate did clearly say this is an estimate though so I think the Granite company was in the right but that doesn't mean it was worth the bad blood over 4%.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> My question is what is your definition of an estimate and what is the customers definition of an estimate.
> 
> To me when I have hired someone to do work on my house and they give an estimate I know the price is not set in stone and really would not complain if the price came in 10-15% higher.
> 
> Now when I give a paint estimate I do not go over what is estimated I would just eat the cost and move on unless it is for some unknown factor prior to starting work that changes the scope of work.


But once a deposit is taken...


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

RH said:


> But once a deposit is taken...


I don't see how taking a deposit changes the definition of the term estimate. It is still an estimate which is a process taken to determine the approximate cost of a job. The deposit does not change the fact that an approximate cost was given.

That being said I would not go up in price.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Anyone who is thinking weather or not to give a contractor a deposit on a promise to do work ought read this thread.
Lol


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

You already gave them a price. Just do the job and make it look good. Could lead to eventually being called back to painting their interior down the road and also some other jobs from referals too


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Bender said:


> Actually it's part of our marketing strategy. We always run specials all summer like that.
> 'Whole exterior repaint, $700"
> Then, after we sign and start painting I explain what I really meant was $3800.00.
> 
> They're always like, "oh you poor thing, here's multiple thousands of dollars we hadn't planned on spending."


LMAO :thumbup:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

I don't understand how he misbid it by so much? How big is the house? What are the big discrepancies that ALL of a sudden adds 3200$$ to the cost? How many guys are going to be on job? Why were theses points missed from initial bid, to sitting down with homeowner to taking deposit? 
I see a generalized problem here, but where's the good specifics?


Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

jacob33 said:


> I was recently on a job where the home owner and granite contractor had an argument over the definition of the word estimate. There was even a dictionary involved. It was rather uncomfortable to be painting while the argument was going on but somewhat comical.
> 
> This was over a 4% increase over estimate. The granite company felt its was well within the realm of an estimate. The home owner felt differently. The typed estimate did clearly say this is an estimate though so I think the Granite company was in the right but that doesn't mean it was worth the bad blood over 4%.


Hence why I call it a proposal. Estimate sounds like you're guessing and subject to change. A bid proposal is set in stone with the exception of change orders.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

jacob33 said:


> I don't see how taking a deposit changes the definition of the term estimate. It is still an estimate which is a process taken to determine the approximate cost of a job. The deposit does not change the fact that an approximate cost was given.
> 
> That being said I would not go up in price.



It don't think it does, if your contract is indeed an estimate then its variable. I would think a properly worded contract, written or verbal, would remove any subjectivity as to whether the price could fluctuate or not. 

An estimate is an estimate, and a quote is a quote.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

About the only time we do *Estimates* is when there is a likelihood for concealed damage, structural issues, etc. That's generally not been an issue when we're painting, but when we replace exterior trim or siding, all bets are off, especially for houses build during the last boom.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Bender said:


> Actually it's part of our marketing strategy. We always run specials all summer like that.
> 'Whole exterior repaint, $700"
> Then, after we sign and start painting I explain what I really meant was $3800.00.
> 
> They're always like, "oh you poor thing, here's multiple thousands of dollars we hadn't planned on spending."


Classic. :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't think playing with words changes the intent of the OP here. He priced the job, got it, and took a deposit.

I do an "estimate" when I am looking at what needs to be done. Once I go over those numbers I compile a "bid". Once that bid is submitted to the HOs and accepted I get a deposit and issue a contract. At the point that I take money for them, I will stand behind the agreement that has been made. It just becomes a, "my word is my bond", thing.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

We all empirically understand the word "estimate". But the only time I alter the invoice is when I don't feel like making a killing on overvalued stripping.

And I can't remember when I found some surprises that caused me to jack the invoice up.

But then again, one of the MANY reasons I enjoy paperhanging over painting is that there are seldom surprises lurking under the surface.

And BTW, if one submits an estimate, generated from all the facts you can see and a hidden surprise jumps up from behind the wall and bites you in the ass, then yes, you are due compensation for unforeseen issues. 

BUT, if you make a math mistake or even a typographical error, that is NOT an unforeseeable change in the scope of the job.

C'mon people, there is a difference here. The scope of the job did not change, there is no justification to adjust the estimate.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

We're all starting to sound like a bunch of GD "step ladder lawyers".


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

RH said:


> We're all starting to sound like a bunch of GD "step ladder lawyers".


Now that was clever.:yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

RH said:


> We're all starting to sound like a bunch of GD "step ladder lawyers".


I want a bumper sticker

_*"Don't F with me, My dad is a
Step Ladder Lawyer "*_ 

:thumbup: :thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> I want a bumper sticker
> 
> _*"Don't F with me, My dad is a
> Step Ladder Lawyer "*_
> ...


Send your check or money order to...


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Reading through this thread reminds me of something I read somewhere in regards to giving homeowners prices; and it is the saying I keep in mind....

I don't give estimates, I make promises. 


Unless your contract specifically says that the cost will be variable I don't see how you can add to the price.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

A professional painting contractor will ensure his paperwork is always up to scratch. When I get a deposit for a job, its documented clearly what the total contract price is, less the deposit and the final balance amount owing on completion. 

I presume you wrote the price on the back of a business card.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

My brother was telling me the other day how when in grade school he was comfortably settle in the middle of the pack, academically. At one point he was "motivated" to start knuckling down (prolly the old man's belt,  ) and zoomed up to the top three. He said the biggest alteration to his school work habits was he started to DOUBLE check the answers on his tests. 

Sounds like a good idea before submitting an estimate.

I just screwed up with the amount of wallpaper to be ordered, I was factoring the height of the walls at 60" when I had written in my notes 6'0". (pure dumb luck saved my ass on this one). If I had double checked . . . . . .


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

At minimum I suggest you start telling HO's that its a _rough_ estimate.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> At minimum I suggest you start tell HO's that its a _rough_ estimate.


Ah, the back-peddling approach! Always a client favorite.:whistling2:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Maybe an uber ethical contractor will have the pride and self sacrifice to stand by their estimating error and eat the job costs in order to preserve their reputation. But are they really doing the industry any favors by providing under valued service to a customer who's unaware of the error? And if the customer is aware of the error, what does it say about _their _character to allow someone to eat the costs of a job on their home, knowing damn well a contractor has the right to feed his or her family just like themselves?

What gives the contractor the right to suffer for pride? Particularly if the customer is left with an un easy feeling that they just got over on you?

In other words, as a homeowner and customer, don't do me any favors.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Maybe an uber ethical contractor will have the pride and self sacrifice to stand by their estimating error and eat the job costs in order to preserve their reputation. But are they really doing the industry any favors by providing under valued service to a customer who's unaware of the error? And if the customer is aware of the error, what does it say about _their _character to allow someone to eat the costs of a job on their home, knowing damn well a contractor has the right to feed his or her family just like themselves?
> 
> What gives the contractor the right to suffer for pride? Particularly if the customer is left with an un easy feeling that they just got over on you?
> 
> In other words, as a homeowner and customer, don't do me any favors.


So being too ethical is bad for the industry? When I think of the public-image problems that face painting contractors, an over abundance of ethics isn't what comes to mind.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> So being too ethical is bad for the industry? When I think of the public-image problems that face painting contractors, an over abundance of ethics isn't what comes to mind.


I don't believe its an issue of too much ethics, as much as it is about ones perception of ethics, and how terms like integrity, honor, humility, and ethics are used to drape oneself with an image without realizing it comes from within. 

It is not ethical, or responsible to suffer for pride. IMO.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Maybe an uber ethical contractor will have the pride and self sacrifice to stand by their estimating error and eat the job costs in order to preserve their reputation. But are they really doing the industry any favors by providing under valued service to a customer who's unaware of the error? And if the customer is aware of the error, what does it say about _their _character to allow someone to eat the costs of a job on their home, knowing damn well a contractor has the right to feed his or her family just like themselves?
> 
> What gives the contractor the right to suffer for pride? Particularly if the customer is left with an un easy feeling that they just got over on you?
> 
> In other words, as a homeowner and customer, don't do me any favors.


I will allow that in cases where an extreme error has been made that should be clearly obvious to even the most obtuse HO, that informing them about the mistake could be justified. But in this case, even by the OP's own words, he didn't make that kind of blunder. He simply realized later, when he feels there are more profitable jobs out there, that he under bid. To me there is a big difference between an error and simply underbidding. And once again, if he has gotten all the way to getting a deposit, and beyond, before realizing it, then he really has no one to blame but himself.

I also think the OP and his family aren't going to starve to death over something like this. He'll still make money, just not as much as he'd like. And to that I say welcome to the club.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I don't believe its an issue of too much ethics, as much as it is about ones perception of ethics, and how terms like integrity, honor, humility, and ethics are used to drape oneself with an image without realizing it comes from within.
> 
> It is not ethical, or responsible to suffer for pride. IMO.


So it is ethical, and responsible to approach the clients and tell them, " *I* screwed up and guessed wrong on how long this would take, *you* need to pay me more"?

Interesting approach to accountability.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I will allow that in cases where an extreme error has been made that should be clearly obvious to even the most obtuse HO, that informing them about the mistake could be justified. But in this case, even by the OP's own words, he didn't make that kind of blunder. He simply realized later, when he feels there are more profitable jobs out there, that he under bid. To me there is a big difference between an error and simply underbidding. And once again, if he has gotten all the way to getting a deposit, and beyond, before realizing it, then he really has no one to blame but himself.
> 
> I also think the OP and his family aren't going to starve to death over something like this. He'll still make money, just not as much as he'd like. And to that I say welcome to the club.


You make a good point, and I agree with the discrepancies pointed out in your earlier post. However, the issue is to intentionally move forward on a job where you will suffer loss, either in time value or money, with little more obligation then returning a deposit. This is based on believing an actual clerical error was committed.

The discussion then developed into contractors waving the ethical banner in defiance of informing the customer, that because of an error in the estimate, it was necessary to adjust the quote in order to proceed with the work. This was followed with overwhelming support to take a loss, as a means to demonstrate ethical business behavior. 

That may be more of a problem then a lack of ethics itself.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> So it is ethical, and responsible to approach the clients and tell them, " *I* screwed up and guessed wrong on how long this would take, *you* need to pay me more"?
> 
> Interesting approach to accountability.


At least it's a demonstration of honesty.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

It would be deceptive not only to the customer, but to the industry in general if mis calculations aren't pointed out to the consumer. Particularly before work begins. No one should have to suffer for an honest mistake. And if a homeowner can't accept that, move on.

Why do painters feel like they owe something to homeowners, and other painting customers, other then what they agreed to charge for their labor. Where does it say in a painters classification that we have to be altruists? Is it to make up for our self consciousness of being the lesser of the building trades in terms of "perceived" importance?

We are not a multi billion dollar airline industry that can honor ridiculously low prices because of clerical errors.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I will respond (again) a bit later. I now have to go do an estimate/bid. And you can be damn sure I'll be checking everything twice. :yes:


BTW - some good discussions here


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I will respond (again) a bit later. I now have to go do an estimate/bid. And you can be damn sure I'll be checking everything twice. :yes:
> 
> 
> BTW - some good discussions here


Take your time. Like a journey to the center of the Earth, I believe I discovered what lies beneath this thin crust of a thread. And that is:

The inability to admit a wrong.

What's often disguised as ethics, is the preference to suffer rather then to admit one's error. And it is no surprise we function this way given society's abhorrence to failure.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It would be deceptive not only to the customer, but to the industry in general if mis calculations aren't pointed out to the consumer. Particularly before work begins. No one should have to suffer for an honest mistake. And if a homeowner can't accept that, move on.
> 
> Why do painters feel like they owe something to homeowners, and other painting customers, other then what they agreed to charge for their labor. Where does it say in a painters classification that we have to be altruists? Is it to make up for our self consciousness of being the lesser of the building trades in terms of "perceived" importance?
> 
> We are not a multi billion dollar airline industry that can honor ridiculously low prices because of clerical errors.


As the OP has admitted, it wasn't a matter of misplacing a decimal point or forgetting to include one side of the house. He guessed low and now realizes the opportunity costs of that bid ( with other, better-paying, jobs available ).

"Why do painters feel like they owe something to homeowners, and other painting customers, other then what they agreed to charge for their labor." 

That's pretty much the point of this discussion, they agreed upon the amount. Flip your question around to see the client's viewpoint: why should clients feel like they owe something to painters, other than what they agreed to to have the work performed?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Take your time. Like a journey to the center of the Earth, I believe I discovered what lies beneath this thin crust of a thread. And that is:
> 
> The inability to admit a wrong.
> 
> What's often disguised as ethics, is the preference to suffer rather then to admit one's error. And it is no surprise we function this way given society's abhorrence to failure.


You're right that that's sometimes the case.

A lesson I learned early on, with both residential clients and GCs, is to let them know right away when we've screwed up...and then make it right. I've not been shy about letting a client know when we've underbid a job, but it also let them know that it's not their problem. I don't expect them to pay for our mistakes.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The discussions seems to have parted into parallel issues that share only vague points.

Of course it's unethical to approach a customer for more monies because the original quote doesn't seem as lucrative as ones being secured currently. There's no question that has an element of bait and switch. And if that's what the OP is doing, then he is absolutely wrong.

However, if the OP is presenting a situation where he actually did underestimate the job, in terms of meeting his labor costs, materials, and overhead, then he has every right to ask the customer for an adjustment. Why should he suffer loss due to an honest mistake. It's not presenting _that _situation to the customer, that I find irresponsible. And its the support to not present that information, but instead suck it up in the name of ethics, that I find disingenuous.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> You're right that that's sometimes the case.
> 
> A lesson I learned early on, with both residential clients and GCs, is to let them know right away when we've screwed up...and then make it right. I've not been shy about letting a client know when we've underbid a job, but it also let them know that it's not their problem. I don't expect them to pay for our mistakes.


I tried to change "really" to "often" before you quoted me, but I was too late.

EDIT (Gough): I went ahead and fixed your quote in my post.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I understand the "not having the customer pay for our mistakes" mantra. And if I break something, I pay for it. If I order too much material, I pay for it. And if I'm part way through a job and discover that the heavy textured walls are taking up more paint then I estimated, I'd bring that to the attention of the customer because I would hope that they would cover the extra costs for material, but I wouldn't expect it because that was an error I could have easily brought to their attention _before _starting the job, if I would have read the data sheet correctly.

Generally, I'd rather leave the "not paying for our mistakes" to Domino's Pizza, Southwest Airlines, and any other multi billion dollar company that can afford to honor those mistakes.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm back - just a T&M job so didn't have to worry about under bidding.

I don't think anyone ever wants to admit they made a mistake, that's just human nature. But I also think that if the customer commits to me, and as a result likely gives up an opportunity to hire someone else, then I just don't think it is reasonable to expect them to pay for my error. 

In the OP's case, time was certainly a factor. If he had realized his "error" soon after accepting the job and the deposit, then going back to them and offering to refund their money and thereby freeing them to hire someone else would have been a viable option. But to do so now, when most of the other companies are booked, would be a pretty crappy move.

CA, I'm tempted to say that perhaps you might feel differently about the perception of honoring a commitment if you were an owner/operator rather than an employee. I know that at least for me, having my name on everything does make a difference. I want that name to stand for something. However, knowing your usual position on things, I'm more likely to think that you are fully capable of projecting yourself into the role of an owner and that instead you are simply playing the role of devil's advocate here. I suspect that if you were in this situation you would also stand behind your word and just complete the job at the agreed upon price. If I'm wrong, then I guess this is just a case where you and I will have to agree to disagree. Regardless, it's been a pleasure being able to have a respectful discussion on this subject.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

They contacted a professional. If they wanted uncertainty they could have hired their nieces and nephews to do it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> They contacted a professional. If they wanted uncertainty they could have hired their nieces and nephews to do it.


As usual, you've cut right to the heart of it.


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## Hemlock (May 29, 2013)

For those wondering how I was short 3k on my quote, a couple things.

1. When I originally quote this job I was guessing what I needed to charge to be able to pay my overheard, my salary and have profit left over. I was selling my self short, barely breaking even. I can now say I understand these numbers and charge accordingly.


2. Being my first year quoting and painting full exteriors I was naive on the amount of time prep takes at heights, especially when ladders are the the only means of access. The house is an older west coast heritage home. It isn't a large house but there is a significant amount of old flaking wood that needs sanding/priming/caulking. 

I've taken the advice of many of you on here and we are doing the job for the price we quoted. It was a quote, not an estimate. 

Lesson learned.





Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> The discussions seems to have parted into parallel issues that share only vague points.
> 
> Of course it's unethical to approach a customer for more monies because the original quote doesn't seem as lucrative as ones being secured currently. There's no question that has an element of bait and switch. And if that's what the OP is doing, then he is absolutely wrong.
> 
> However, if the OP is presenting a situation where he actually did underestimate the job, in terms of meeting his labor costs, materials, and overhead, then he has every right to ask the customer for an adjustment. Why should he suffer loss due to an honest mistake. It's not presenting _that _situation to the customer, that I find irresponsfible. And its the support to not present that information, but instead suck it up in the name of ethics, that I find disingenuous.


In the simplest terms, because he's the one who made the mistake.

You mentioned paying for your mistakes, like damage or over-ordering paint. I'm at a loss to see how those are fundamentally different from underbidding. They are all part of the responsibilities of a professional painting company.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Hemlock said:


> For those wondering how I was short 3k on my quote, a couple things.
> 
> 1. When I originally quote this job I was guessing what I needed to charge to be able to pay my overheard, my salary and have profit left over. I was selling my self short, barely breaking even. I can now say I understand these numbers and charge accordingly.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update. Good on ya' for sticking to your word. 

On a more technical note, some of the estimating books/websites include information like height adjustment for productivity, etc. I can't remember which ones, but it's worth doing some research. Certainly, you should make some notes on the current job and use them to modify your bidding procedure.

We've added factors for things like foundation plantings...it's 3x for Junipers.:jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> They contacted a professional. If they wanted uncertainty they could have hired their nieces and nephews to do it.


If being a professional means I can never make a mistake or be uncertain, then I must recuse myself from this month's pro honor. 

But it has to be proven first


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> The discussions seems to have parted into parallel issues that share only vague points.
> 
> Of course it's unethical to approach a customer for more monies because the original quote doesn't seem as lucrative as ones being secured currently. There's no question that has an element of bait and switch. And if that's what the OP is doing, then he is absolutely wrong.
> 
> However, if *the OP is presenting a situation where he actually did underestimate the job, in terms of meeting his labor costs, materials, and overhead, then he has every right to ask the customer for an adjustment. Why should he suffer loss due to an honest mistake.* It's not presenting _that _situation to the customer, that I find irresponsible. And its the support to not present that information, but instead suck it up in the name of ethics, that I find disingenuous.


Estimating a job "to the tee" is hard for the most experienced estimators. 
Often when I price a job for 10 days, the job actually takes 11 days. Or if I price the job for 5 days, it take 6 days to complete. So after years of estimating jobs, I humbly admit, that I under estimate most jobs. I sure as hell don't approach the customer, with a sob story, as to how I, the professional, under priced their work. 

*To under estimate a job by 3k shows inexperience.* I NEVER want a customer to view me as inexperienced. I would give the customer their deposit back, and tell them I had a family tragedy (or whatever), and I can not do their work. I am not the only painter on the block, they will find another to do their job.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Thanks for the update. Good on ya' for sticking to your word.
> 
> On a more technical note, some of the estimating books/websites include information like height adjustment for productivity, etc. I can't remember which ones, but it's worth doing some research. Certainly, you should make some notes on the current job and use them to modify your bidding procedure.
> 
> We've added factors for things like foundation plantings...it's 3x for Junipers.:jester:


Ditto to what Gough said.

We used to do x20 for Pyracantha.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> In the simplest terms, because he's the one who made the mistake.
> 
> You mentioned paying for your mistakes, like damage or over-ordering paint. I'm at a loss to see how those are fundamentally different from underbidding. They are all part of the responsibilities of a professional painting company.


I also mentioned that I wouldn't expect any reimbursement since I had already started the job. My whole premise is rooted in the notion that the job has yet to be started, while there are still opportunities to come to an agreement or walk away.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> If being a professional means I can never make a mistake or be uncertain, then I must recuse myself from this month's pro honor.
> 
> But it has to be proven first


A $3,000 under bid is NOT a mistake, it's an amateur estimator, perpetrating himself as an expert. People like this are called low-ballers by inexperience. 

How would you like to lose bids to the many inexperienced estimators out there? Believe me, there are plenty of them out their, and their underbids hurt the more experienced business owners, that are bidding jobs 3k higher. 

This past spring, I bid a job at $5,400 and the customer called me up on the phone and told me that he had two other bids. One at $4,200 and the other at $4,600. He wanted to use me to do his painting, but sounded annoyed that my price was much higher than the other bids, and he wanted me to lower my price. He actually told me that my price was a "slap in the face", I swear! Unbelievable! I was treated like the bad guy for bidding the job more accurately than the others painters. Needless to say, I didn't get the job.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> Estimating a job "to the tee" is hard for the most experienced estimators.
> Often when I price a job for 10 days, the job actually takes 11 days. Or if I price the job for 5 days, it take 6 days to complete. So after years of estimating jobs, I humbly admit, that I under estimate most jobs. I sure as hell don't approach the customer, with a sob story, as to how I, the professional, under priced their work.
> 
> *To under estimate a job by 3k shows inexperience.* I NEVER want a customer to view me as inexperienced. I would give the customer their deposit back, and tell them I had a family tragedy (or whatever), and I can not do their work. I am not the only painter on the block, they will find another to do their job.


If I was under estimating most jobs, I would find another line of work, or become an employee. This is one of the reasons _why_ I don't run a painting business. I'm certain I don't have the estimating talents that many of the painting contractors here have. And I don't want to make a living by giving hours away because I consistently underestimate jobs. As an employee, I know exactly what I'm going to earn. I don't have to continuously estimate my salary.

Now, maybe in this particular situation, the difference with the OP(Hemlock) and the more established contractors, is experience. And frankly, I would have to agree with the more experienced contractors that given their experience, maybe they are more obligated to provide accurate estimates and final quotes then a start up. In this instance, I would think that the less experienced estimator/contractor should be given that much more latitude in terms of making adjustments when an error occurs, in order to establish themselves.

Maybe a person's ethics should only be scrutinized when they _know_ what they're doing.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Ditto to what Gough said.
> 
> We used to do x20 for Pyracantha.


That, and Hawthorn.

How do you itemize that, Exsanguination Risk: $2,500?


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> If being a professional means I can never make a mistake or be uncertain, then *I must recuse myself from this month's pro honor. *
> 
> But it has to be proven first


Con-grads on the honor. But what does an "industrial painter employee" know about estimating and running a residential painting business?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> If being a professional means I can never make a mistake or be uncertain, then I must recuse myself from this month's pro honor.
> 
> But it has to be proven first


All being a professional means is that you are doing it for money....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> Con-grads on the honor. But what does an "industrial painter employee" know about estimating and running a residential painting business?


Not much, other then helping my former employers estimate jobs when asked, and doing side jobs over a twenty year span that never adequately compensated for the weekends I had to sacrifice.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> <<<snip>>>
> 
> In this instance, I would think that the less experienced estimator/contractor should be given that much more latitude in terms of making adjustments when an error occurs, in order to establish themselves.
> 
> <<<snip>>>


Now we're on to something. I'm thinking of a roof sign like those on the Drivers Ed cars. It goes on top of the work trucks belonging to inexperienced painters.

CAUTION
STUDENT PAINTER

Estimates may be in error by +/- 40%


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> Now we're on to something. I'm thinking of a roof sign like those on the Drivers Ed cars. It goes on top of the work trucks belonging to inexperienced painters.
> 
> CAUTION
> STUDENT PAINTER
> ...


*Rookie Painting Contractor.* Please bear with us, as what appears to be a great price, is actually an underbid. We will be sure to add 3k prior to job commencing. Thank you for your patience and understanding while we are learning.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I would also add to the conversation, that just because a painter becomes a painting contractor, doesn't automatically make them savvy business men. As a matter of fact, and understanding that there are brilliant businessmen and women contractors, painting contractors have no more financial aptitude then painters who have managed to negotiate a career in this industry, for decades. Nor do they demonstrate any more ethical behavior then their employees.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Now we're on to something. I'm thinking of a roof sign like those on the Drivers Ed cars. It goes on top of the work trucks belonging to inexperienced painters.
> 
> CAUTION
> STUDENT PAINTER
> ...


I was going to mention earlier that as far as I know, there isn't an apprenticeship program for start up business owners. And I would suggest the sign reads "Inexperienced Painting Contractor" rather then painter.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> *If I was under estimating most jobs, I would find another line of work,* or become an employee. This is one of the reasons _why_ I don't run a painting business. I'm certain I don't have the estimating talents that many of the painting contractors here have. And I don't want to make a living by giving hours away because I consistently underestimate jobs. As an employee, I know exactly what I'm going to earn. I don't have to continuously estimate my salary.
> 
> Now, maybe in this particular situation, the difference with the OP(Hemlock) and the more established contractors, is experience. And frankly, I would have to agree with the more experienced contractors that given their experience, maybe they are more obligated to provide accurate estimates and final quotes then a start up. In this instance, I would think that the less experienced estimator/contractor should be given that much more latitude in terms of making adjustments when an error occurs, in order to establish themselves.
> 
> Maybe a person's ethics should only be scrutinized when they _know_ what they're doing.


If you think there is a guy out there, that can figure a job will take "80 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds" and be 100% accurate, every time, find that guy for me, because I want to shake his hand. :yes:

*Estimating tip:*
If you figure a job will take 80 hours, put 100 hours in your bid.
If you figure a job will require $500 in paints and supplies, put $600 in your bid.

In most cases, you will come out on top!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> If you think there is a guy out there, that can figure a job will take "80 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds" and be 100% accurate, every time, find that guy for me, because I want to shake his hand. :yes:
> 
> *Estimating tip:*
> If you figure a job will take 80 hours, put 100 hours in your bid.
> ...


But I thought you posted that in most cases, YOU don't?


PaintersUnite said:


> ..."after years of estimating jobs, I humbly admit, that I under estimate most jobs. I sure as hell don't approach the customer, with a sob story, as to how I, the professional, under priced their work."


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Not much, other then helping my former employers estimate jobs when asked, and doing side jobs over a twenty year span that never adequately compensated for the weekends I had to sacrifice.


The quote in my sig line isn't just a random quote.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

We are close to the start of construction for our new addition. I hope to hell all the various subs are professional and experienced enough to be fairly accurate in their bidding. Otherwise we might be in a world of hurt.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> But I thought you posted that in most cases, YOU don't?


Oddly, my underbid, in most cases, is 50% to 80% higher than some of my competitors bids.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

CApainter said:


> If being a professional means I can never make a mistake or be uncertain, then I must recuse myself from this month's pro honor.
> 
> But it has to be proven first


You're allowed to make mistakes as often as you like as long as you can fund them. When you can no longer bankroll your own [company's] mistakes, you quit and go to work for someone else.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> Oddly, my underbid, in most cases, is 50% to 80% higher than some of my competitors bids.


I had a feeling you were ahead of the game despite the extra days you hadn't figured.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bryceraisanen said:


> You're allowed to make mistakes as often as you like as long as you can fund them. When you can no longer bankroll your own [company's] mistakes, you quit and go to work for someone else.


Now I understand how those strict parameters can inspire a contractor to know his or her numbers. And I thought it was hard work taking orders!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I like the way the OP ended up dealing with this.

He admitted his mistake (most importantly to HIMSELF), bit the bullet (reinforcing the lesson learned), gets the job done (as he promised), and most likely is no a better estimator (never stop learning)

Backing away from it or asking for more $$ prolly would not have as much as a beneficial influence on his long term business success. We tend learn how to swim quicker if no one throws us a life preserver.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

RH said:


> We are close to the start of construction for our new addition. I hope to hell all the various subs are professional and experienced enough to be fairly accurate in their bidding. Otherwise we might be in a world of hurt.


When can we start bidding on the painting?? :whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I also mentioned that I wouldn't expect any reimbursement since I had already started the job. My whole premise is rooted in the notion that the job has yet to be started, while there are still opportunities to come to an agreement or walk away.


I missed this post in all the excitement.

They don't need to come an agreement, they've already done that. I'm a little confused by the your notion that, until a PC has started work, he can still change the terms or walk away. He can certainly try, but either approach carries potential consequences.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> I missed this post in all the excitement. They don't need to come an agreement, they've already done that. I'm a little confused by the your notion that, until a PC has started work, he can still change the terms or walk away. He can certainly try, but either approach carries potential consequences.


He wouldn't get a red cent more off of me. And I'd be pissed he held me up as long as he did. I woildnt bother with any ideas of legal reprisal. Wouldn't be worth the hassle. I'd trash the guy to anyone who would care to listen though. 

But then again. When he asked me for a deposit I'd have moved on right then and there anyway. Which avoids the whole situation, for both parties.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Why isn't anyone admitting. 

A recent roof job.i had done. A outfit bid it $6500. B outfit bid it at 12k. 
Same exact job. Same shingles. Warranty all that. Same production rate I'm sure. One day job. 
I have little doubt both outfits would have done a equally good job and both probably had similar costs for the job.
Why the great desparity in price.
B outfit was booked. For 12 k they'd squeeze it in somehow though. Lol

The elephant in the room on all of the pricing threads. Lol


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## phillyholiday (Jun 5, 2014)

Bummer Hemlock just remember for every exterior there's an interior. If you're anything like my boss you'll let your guys know there's no money in this one so pace is mandatory. Wait a second...he says that every time! 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

phillyholiday said:


> Bummer Hemlock just remember for every exterior there's an interior. If you're anything like my boss you'll let your guys know there's no money in this one so pace is mandatory. Wait a second...he says that every time!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Ahmm
Stop giving away our secrets philly


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Oden said:


> Why isn't anyone admitting.
> 
> A recent roof job.i had done. A outfit bid it $6500. B outfit bid it at 12k.
> Same exact job. Same shingles. Warranty all that. Same production rate I'm sure. One day job.
> ...


There is that whole Supply and Demand thing, but the other unknown is the big W: workmanship. Especially when it comes to roofing, Mies was right, God is in the details. Valleys, vents, kickout flashings, drip edge, it goes on and on, those are the things that can make the difference. I've seen some badly-done roofs (rooves for our Australian members) that were trouble-prone from day 1.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Hemlock said:


> For those wondering how I was short 3k on my quote, a couple things.
> 
> 1. When I originally quote this job I was guessing what I needed to charge to be able to pay my overheard, my salary and have profit left over. I was selling my self short, barely breaking even. I can now say I understand these numbers and charge accordingly.
> 
> ...


Good for you Hemlock:thumbsup:
So you made a dumb mistake. We have all been there(more than once):yes:
Integrity is priceless.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> I missed this post in all the excitement.
> 
> They don't need to come an agreement, they've already done that. I'm a little confused by the your notion that, until a PC has started work, he can still change the terms or walk away. He can certainly try, but either approach carries potential consequences.


All I'm trying to say is, contracting should be a win win for both contractor and customer. And the following, from the Journal of Light Construction, tends to agree. 

*Too Good To Be True*
There is another important exception: If the bid was so low as to make it obvious that the bidder was mistaken about something, there are many courts that will say it's not fair to enforce the contract against the bidder. The legal theory that explains this is called "unreasonable reliance."

The idea is that it isn't reasonable to assume a bid is valid if it is too far off the mark. For example, suppose a homeowner solicits bids for a new slate roof. Two roofers offer to do it for $50,000, but a third one says he can do it for $15,000. It's obvious that the third bidder made a mistake. Maybe he made a math error or thought he was bidding composition shingles.

Either way, it will be difficult for the owner to force the low bidder to honor his price. That's because if there is a mistake in a bid that the customer could see just by looking at it, then his reliance on the bid is not reasonable. The law intends for contracts to be fair, not a game of gotcha.

Referenced from JLC(The Journel of Light Construction)


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Let me simplify it for you John.

Bust a Deal Face the Wheel


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

All I can add is, if I wanted penance every time I made a mistake, I would have joined the Monastery.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> All I'm trying to say is, contracting should be a win win for both contractor and customer. And the following, from the Journal of Light Construction, tends to agree.
> 
> *Too Good To Be True*
> There is another important exception: If the bid was so low as to make it obvious that the bidder was mistaken about something, there are many courts that will say it's not fair to enforce the contract against the bidder. The legal theory that explains this is called "unreasonable reliance."
> ...


I agree that contracts should be a win-win, but the OP's situation seems like far cry from being unreasonable or unconscionable. He made an offer to paint the exterior for $6,800, and now realizes that he should've bid $10K. We've often seen that spread, and more, on projects that we've bid, so that difference hardly seems unreasonable. He bid the house for lower than he should, but he didn't offer him the Brooklyn Bridge.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> When can we start bidding on the painting?? :whistling2:


Uhhh, sorry, I have a great bid from an outfit called _College Painters._ Though it does seem a little too low to be true.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

RH said:


> Uhhh, sorry, I have a great bid from an outfit called College Painters. Though it does seem a little too low to be true.


In the words of my 20 months old daughter "Silly Dan". 

Bad news is, none of them go college and none of them are painters. Good news for you is that Richmond works nationwide


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> In the words of my 20 months old daughter "Silly Dan".
> 
> Bad news is, none of them go college and none of them are painters. Good news for you is that Richmond works nationwide



:shutup::shutup::shutup:

My wife would use a different adjective other than "silly".


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

It looks like this has been one giant circular conversation from the beginning, with one guy saying he underbid a job, but us never finding what his reasons for him saying the job is ALL of a sudden underbid now that time has come to do work. Someone made the comment that with the busy ness of the season it is probably only underbid in relative comparison to his other jobs. That is the only logical reason, because I never saw the OP come back and say that that there were 12 new roof angles he missed, that the job requires two costs and he bid one, or that he needs to rent a lift when he thought it Gould be fond off ladders. So the only thing I can figure is that the OP WANTS more money for the job, not that his bidding skills failed. 
But most of you keep concentrating on the skill of estimating. It's not that difficult. Estimating is about the a,b,c's of sales. What does the ho want done, and based upon the short amount of time I spend getting to know this ho, what do I think this job is worth to the ho? Cross reference that with time and materials on my part, run minimum labor figures, run maximum labor figures, discuss with ho high end techniques, show pictures, talk time tables, and bam, out comes Cody estimate, or in my case, The Proposal.
Two identical jobs, two different ho, without me knowing either ho, just looking at the specs of the job, and I will come to exact same price. But toss in the personality of each ho, the type of job each wants performed, what they want finished job to look like, and fellows I'm going to fond up with a different cost for each of them every time. Sales: I perform this service in multiple manners and to multiple degrees: not every ho wants a full detail wash wax, tires shined and engine detail. But with a little big of personality reading every one of you should be able to "estimate" what you want and what you can get. That's all it is. Whether you are an employee of a contractor, every one of you, or us, is selling our services every day. There is no right or wrong way for us the contractors, because the price I give is profitable to me (May not be profitable to you.) typically the only people that lose are the hos who get dood a duper cheap paint job, ANC end up having yo pay someone who not only understands sales fundamentals but the finer points and detail of the actual process of painting as well, as well as all that hoes into the fiber points of this business.


Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Exactoman said:


> It looks like this has been one giant circular conversation from the beginning, with one guy saying he underbid a job, but us never finding what his reasons for him saying the job is ALL of a sudden underbid now that time has come to do work. Someone made the comment that with the busy ness of the season it is probably only underbid in relative comparison to his other jobs. That is the only logical reason, because I never saw the OP come back and say that that there were 12 new roof angles he missed, that the job requires two costs and he bid one, or that he needs to rent a lift when he thought it Gould be fond off ladders. So the only thing I can figure is that the OP WANTS more money for the job, not that his bidding skills failed.
> But most of you keep concentrating on the skill of estimating. It's not that difficult. Estimating is about the a,b,c's of sales. What does the ho want done, and based upon the short amount of time I spend getting to know this ho, what do I think this job is worth to the ho? Cross reference that with time and materials on my part, run minimum labor figures, run maximum labor figures, discuss with ho high end techniques, show pictures, talk time tables, and bam, out comes Cody estimate, or in my case, The Proposal.
> Two identical jobs, two different ho, without me knowing either ho, just looking at the specs of the job, and I will come to exact same price. But toss in the personality of each ho, the type of job each wants performed, what they want finished job to look like, and fellows I'm going to fond up with a different cost for each of them every time. Sales: I perform this service in multiple manners and to multiple degrees: not every ho wants a full detail wash wax, tires shined and engine detail. But with a little big of personality reading every one of you should be able to "estimate" what you want and what you can get. That's all it is. Whether you are an employee of a contractor, every one of you, or us, is selling our services every day. There is no right or wrong way for us the contractors, because the price I give is profitable to me (May not be profitable to you.) typically the only people that lose are the hos who get dood a duper cheap paint job, ANC end up having yo pay someone who not only understands sales fundamentals but the finer points and detail of the actual process of painting as well, as well as all that hoes into the fiber points of this business.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


How long does it take to type all of this on an iPad??


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Sorry bout some of the glaring typos. Stupid ipad spell changer. I think y'all get the point.


Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Exactoman said:


> Sorry bout some of the glaring typos. Stupid ipad spell changer. I think y'all get the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


It's cool. Slinger would probably have to take the whole weekend off to type a post like that.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Exactoman said:


> Sorry bout some of the glaring typos. Stupid ipad spell changer. I think y'all get the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


of this whole thread, I think _THAT_ is the most I understand :whistling2:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Brief summary: there is no "system" for estimating, or proposing. What works for me may not work for you. There is no consistency of service. I put a price on the level of service I know I give added to the hos I serve and come up with x proposal. But, and I think we ALL can agree on this. Once I do give a price, that's it. Unless of course the add on a bunch of stuff!!!! 


Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> How long does it take to type all of this on an iPad??


I estimate maybe one hour - or seven.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

RH said:


> I estimate maybe one hour - or seven.


THAT word has been haunting me all week.


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## US$18TRILLION DEBT (Aug 15, 2014)

Whats paint cost? .20 cents a SQ foot with 2 coats.Average job is probably pulling in 1.75 to 2.00 a Sq foot.Historically painters have very low material cost compared to other trades.How did you arrive at breaking even?Go over it with the homeowner ,maybe they can split the difference.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> It's cool. Slinger would probably have to take the whole weekend off to type a post like that.


I can't even think of that much to say, much less type it. 😎


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

slinger58 said:


> I can't even think of that much to say, much less type it. ?de0e


Lol. He lost me at giant circular conversation.


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## team 911 (Dec 29, 2010)

I agree you took a deposit take the job as priced and learn from it

Sent from my SM-G900V using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Lol. He lost me at giant circular conversation.


You can get some more information. Look up " conversation, circular ".


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> How long does it take to type all of this on an iPad??


I thanked it on effort alone.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Bender said:


> I thanked it on effort alone.


:thumbup: I just did the same.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Jeeesh, if thanks were deserved by effort alone, my porcelain library would be four walls of 'em


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Gough said:


> You can get some more information. Look up " conversation, circular ".


This is what came back for my Google results. Explains a lot. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAs2PBL1RsA


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> This is what came back for my Google results. Explains a lot.


Ken, I was alluding to an old bit. Told to look up "circular reasoning", a student replies that he'd found the definition. When asked what it says, he replies, "it says, 'see: reasoning, circular'".


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

Its been a long time since iv'e posted, but I had to chime in on this one. I would sub it asap! Surley you can find someone to do it for a low price. If you're at 6800, you need someone who will do it for 5k. You just need to be quality control/project manager. There are also many variables. Material and cost? how high do you need to go? etc... If you have a low enough cost, you might can supply materials and equipment for a super low sub price. I would sub it either way, no question...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> Its been a long time since iv'e posted, but I had to chime in on this one. I would sub it asap! Surley you can find someone to do it for a low price. If you're at 6800, you need someone who will do it for 5k. You just need to be quality control/project manager. There are also many variables. Material and cost? how high do you need to go? etc... If you have a low enough cost, you might can supply materials and equipment for a super low sub price. I would sub it either way, no question...


You bring up another point of ethics and integrity, in terms of pursuing the job for no gain other then to preserve ones reputation, or allowing someone else to pursue it at the _risk _of your reputation. At least with the latter, you'll come out a little ahead. I think it's a good third option that may very likely satisfy everyone.

However, I believe the OP has already been influenced by the majority here to pursue the job as promised, despite his estimating error and the loss he will incur. Tough love wins out again.


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

CApainter said:


> You bring up another point of ethics and integrity, in terms of pursuing the job for no gain other then to preserve ones reputation, or allowing someone else to pursue it at the _risk _of your reputation. At least with the latter, you'll come out a little ahead. I think it's a good third option that may very likely satisfy everyone.
> 
> However, I believe the OP has already been influenced by the majority here to pursue the job as promised, despite his estimating error and the loss he will incur. Tough love wins out again.


A very ethical way of the thinking, I admire the integrity. If I was trying to grow a business I would look at the practices of say... the brock group, or k2 industrial (which subs all the time) Now, If I wanted to simply be the best, then I suppose I would eat it every time I needed to. 

To each his own I guess, but personally I would prefer billion dollar revenues over being the best. In the words of fast eddie felson, the best is the guy with the most.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> To each his own I guess, but personally I would prefer billion dollar revenues over being the best. In the words of fast eddie felson, the best is the guy with the most.



Hmmmmm, so your role model is Fast Eddie ???

I got a feeling there are enough self-destructive paint hustlers out there and many are trying to undue the harm they done to the reputation of the industry


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

Suck it up, lesson learned and you will do it again.....


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

daArch said:


> Hmmmmm, so your role model is Fast Eddie ???
> 
> I got a feeling there are enough self-destructive paint hustlers out there and many are trying to undue the harm they done to the reputation of the industry


My role models are billion dollar companiesn that continue to grow and use the latest in coating technologies. I could give a sh!t less really about house painting and how he plans to tackle this. I started out as a custom home painter but specialty coatings and scaffold/stage rigging is the direction im headed. I care not to be the best door or wall painter thats ever been... I do want to be the fastest coal ash build up remover/painter/and preventer in major power plants. I was just providing advice from bottom line point of view, he can crayon the f#cking house for all I care!!!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> Its been a long time since iv'e posted, but I had to chime in on this one. I would sub it asap! Surley you can find someone to do it for a low price. If you're at 6800, you need someone who will do it for 5k. You just need to be quality control/project manager. There are also many variables. Material and cost? how high do you need to go? etc... If you have a low enough cost, you might can supply materials and equipment for a super low sub price. I would sub it either way, no question...


We work in a smaller market and now concentrate on res. repaints. Around here, sending in subs to do the work that you've bid is a recipe for failure. We've had a lot of clients who have relocated to the area from places where that practice is common, and they weren't pleased about it.

That trick might work, as long as you're not looking for referrals.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy? I mean, with all the emphasis (at PT) placed on SEO's, web site usability, and LGS's (Lead Generating Sites), is it really that crucial to be referral based when the activities listed above are intended to mine for new clients?

Maybe referrals are crucial in communities with smaller populaces. And therefore, it would make sense that following a set of principals, that leave little room for mistakes, would be a common practice to maintain an ethically aesthetic reputation.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy? I mean, with all the emphasis placed on SEO's, web site usability, and LGS's (Lead Generating Sites), is it really that crucial to be referred when the activities listed above are intended to mine for new clients?
> 
> Maybe referrals are crucial in communities with smaller populaces.


We've found it to be the best way to concentrate on one sector and to prequalify clients, but we are in a smaller market. YMMV.


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

Referrals are golden.

Think of a customer as a tree. 

Every year or two it bears fruit, and you harvest that. Whether working for the same person or a referral. 


Sent from my D5503 using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy? I mean, with all the emphasis (at PT) placed on SEO's, web site usability, and LGS's (Lead Generating Sites), is it really that crucial to be referral based when the activities listed above are intended to mine for new clients?
> 
> Maybe referrals are crucial in communities with smaller populaces. And therefore, it would make sense that following a set of principals, that leave little room for mistakes, would be a common practice to maintain an ethically aesthetic reputation.



A bad referral is damn important. It still travels exponentially faster & farther than a good one. 

Once it's up on that internet thingy, it'll be there forever. 

Good referrals are still quite relevant. Google and many search engines place great value on companies with referrals. With the exception of a few paid ads, the companies with the the most reviews are generally at the top of the search results. 


Stelzer Painting Inc.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> *A bad referra*l is damn important. It still travels exponentially faster & farther than a good one.
> 
> Once it's up on that internet thingy, it'll be there forever.
> 
> ...


Is there such a thing as a bad referral? I can understand a bad review, but a bad referral?

Just because you didn't get a job from a referral, doesn't mean you're going to perform a "bad' job.


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy?


In a industrial and commercial market, referrals count for nothing. I dont need referrals to get a bid invitation, all I need is the insurance and proven resources. Of course were talking apples and oranges with houses vs industrial/heavy commercial. Im just saying, make money when you can! 

When I first started I would do anything and everything the GC wanted for free, over time I learned... I dont think so! If an electrician cut a 10 inch hole for a 5 inch fixture... Back charge! If you're super thinks this or that should be a different color then what the plans say... Change order! 

To hell with losing over trying to be better. I make profit and along with profit comes higher quality. Oh, he can go ahead and start a 6800$ job knowing it should've been 10k, but do think he will go above and beyond? NO!!! He will cut every corner he can cut, I dont care what he says on painttalk or what anyone else has to say. The job will be half a$$ and that's it.

I would like to see some of these "best ever high quality painters" put their name on a life changing (all in) contract and see if they do what they say they will do. I bet they wont do what they're saying now. I challenge anyone to go jump on a 900k job where you have to carry 5 million liability alone, you have to foot motel, lifts, fuel, paint, packings, perdiem, air fair, on and on and on and on. I swear the cost never ends. Tell them to go jump on a real paint job and lets see how they handle it.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

cardwizzard said:


> Referrals are golden.
> 
> Think of a customer as a tree.
> 
> ...


Only problem is, if you give a customer a ridiculously low price and they refer you, the referred customer is going to expect the same ridiculously low price.

Hey Betty, Pssssst, he does a great job and his prices are cheap.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Is there such a thing as a bad referral? I can understand a bad review, but a bad referral?
> 
> Just because you didn't get a job from a referral, doesn't mean you're going to perform a "bad' job.


I think bad referrals are called "warnings".


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> A bad referral is damn important. It still travels exponentially faster & farther than a good one.
> 
> Once it's up on that internet thingy, it'll be there forever.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about a review? 

A referral is when you've done work for a person, and they recommend you to a 3rd party, and give them your contact info.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> Only problem is, if you give a customer a ridiculously low price and they refer you, the referred customer is going to expect the same ridiculously low price.
> 
> Hey Betty, Pssssst, he does a great job and his prices are cheap.


The better one, "They're staggering expensive, but worth it."


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> In a industrial and commercial market, referrals count for nothing. I dont need referrals to get a bid invitation, all I need is the insurance and proven resources. Of course were talking apples and oranges with houses vs industrial/heavy commercial. Im just saying, make money when you can!
> 
> When I first started I would do anything and everything the GC wanted for free, over time I learned... I dont think so! If an electrician cut a 10 inch hole for a 5 inch fixture... Back charge! If you're super thinks this or that should be a different color then what the plans say... Change order!
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have figured things out, :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy? I mean, with all the emphasis (at PT) placed on SEO's, web site usability, and LGS's (Lead Generating Sites), is it really that crucial to be referral based when the activities listed above are intended to mine for new clients?
> 
> Maybe referrals are crucial in communities with smaller populaces. And therefore, it would make sense that following a set of principals, that leave little room for mistakes, would be a common practice to maintain an ethically aesthetic reputation.


John,

Yes referrals are relevant in today's web based economy. 

As we all know, estimating is a resource eater. I get most of my leads from my site. This is a great lead generator. But then I have to WIN the job by making all the factors meet the potential client's expectation - price, knowledge, quality, personality, value, etc etc.

With a referral about 80% of all that is already taken care of, and usually, if I don't get too greedy, I can charge more for a referral because the process STARTS with a level of confidence not possible by a web site lead.

This has ALWAYS been true of any service provider in any size market. And if you give just one client cause to speak badly, even slightly, you loose 100 times the possible leads. "Oh yah, I had Joe Blow work on my house, he did an OK job, but he seemed more interested in his bottom line than he did about my home" 

Let THAT get around a circle of friends !


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

My long term goal is to do nothing but referral work. Previous clients and their friends/family members etc. This circle keeps geting bigger and bigger. At the moment I still occasionally bid for strangers but only as an absolute last resort. And I know when I do, I need to lower my prices.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> In a industrial and commercial market, referrals count for nothing. I dont need referrals to get a bid invitation, all I need is the insurance and proven resources. Of course were talking apples and oranges with houses vs industrial/heavy commercial. Im just saying, make money when you can!
> 
> When I first started I would do anything and everything the GC wanted for free, over time I learned... I dont think so! If an electrician cut a 10 inch hole for a 5 inch fixture... Back charge! If you're super thinks this or that should be a different color then what the plans say... Change order!
> 
> ...


FWIW, Been there, still am, and I know what your talking about. But I wouldn't give up on referrals. We do a lot of work for power companies, transmission/distribution etc. We work STRAIGHT for the utility, with no middle man. They do refer us to other utility companies. Invariably, Maintenance Director Joe goes to a winter conference/seminar where all the other utility maintenance directors hang out, they shoot da bull, chew the fat, and every spring we have another power company or two to work for. So it can work, and for us has actually been a huge help (referrals).


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> In a industrial and commercial market, referrals count for nothing. I dont need referrals to get a bid invitation, all I need is the insurance and proven resources. Of course were talking apples and oranges with houses vs industrial/heavy commercial. Im just saying, make money when you can!
> 
> When I first started I would do anything and everything the GC wanted for free, over time I learned... I dont think so! If an electrician cut a 10 inch hole for a 5 inch fixture... Back charge! If you're super thinks this or that should be a different color then what the plans say... Change order!
> 
> ...


You're right. The residential jobs and smaller commercial projects I do week after week and month after month aren't "real" paint jobs.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Is there such a thing as a bad referral? I can understand a bad review, but a bad referral?
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you didn't get a job from a referral, doesn't mean you're going to perform a "bad' job.



We might be splitting hairs debating semantics, but I'm pretty sure I made my point. 


Stelzer Painting Inc.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

The 3rd Coat said:


> My long term goal is to do nothing but referral work. Previous clients and their friends/family members etc. This circle keeps geting bigger and bigger. At the moment I still occasionally bid for strangers but only as an absolute last resort. And I know when I do, I need to lower my prices.


I get a big percentage of my work through referrals.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Aren't all jobs referrals in a sense? You crap the bed for a GC, HO, whoever enough times and the phone is going to stop ringing. You're only as good as your reputation


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldccm said:


> Aren't all jobs referrals in a sense? You crap the bed for a GC, HO, whoever enough times and the phone is going to stop ringing. You're only as good as your reputation


Unless you keep moving from state to state....


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> My role models are billion dollar companiesn that continue to grow and use the latest in coating technologies. I could give a sh!t less really about house painting and how he plans to tackle this. I started out as a custom home painter but specialty coatings and scaffold/stage rigging is the direction im headed. I care not to be the best door or wall painter thats ever been... I do want to be the fastest coal ash build up remover/painter/and preventer in major power plants. I was just providing advice from bottom line point of view, he can crayon the f#cking house for all I care!!!


Richmond, you're only allowed one screen name per forum


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> Are you talking about a review?
> 
> A referral is when you've done work for a person, and they recommend you to a 3rd party, and give them your contact info.


re·fer·ral
riˈfərəl/Submit
noun
an act of referring someone or something for consultation, review, or further action.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

oldccm said:


> Aren't all jobs referrals in a sense? You crap the bed for a GC, HO, whoever enough times and the phone is going to stop ringing. You're only as good as your reputation


No, referrals, as stelzer posts, is when Suzy asks Harriet is she knows a good "service provider".

Granted, if one has burned all possible bridges in one community, Harry Reems couldn't get jobbed.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> No, referrals, as stelzer posts, is when Suzy asks Harriet is she knows a good "service provider".
> 
> Granted, if one has burned all possible bridges in one community, Harry Reems couldn't get jobbed.


Time for "something bigger"...and, by that, I mean going national, of course.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Time for "something bigger"...and, by that, I mean going national, of course.


Yah, Harry's bizness stretched from coast to coast, and that was in a soft market.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Typical PT thread going from a valid topic to a johnson thread


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)




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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

We were all set to pull the lever when a last minute call came through from the Governor.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> We were all set to pull the lever when a last minute call came through from the Governor.


Well, pardon me.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Are referrals even that relevant in today's web based economy?


*Referrals* are the highest quality leads that a business can get. Referrals are also gratifying to receive. It gives the contractor a sense of being established. 
Referrals generally have a MUCH higher close ratio than Web based leads (or as I call them, "cold calls"). A Referral lead is less likely to waste the contractors time, and right out of the starting gate, the customer wants to higher him.

*There is nothing like getting a phone call like this:*_ “hi Joe, my name is Mrs., Jones, you did painting for my friend Rose Stein. She said you did a beautiful job. We would love for you to come out to look at some rooms we need painted in our home”! _

*Web base lead goes like this,* “hi joe, my name is Stan Stone, I got you off of the internet, I would like a free estimate. Your estimates are free, right”? OK great, we are getting a few estimates”. 

If I had 20 leads in one week, 10 being referrals, and 10 web based leads, with only enough time to look at 10 of those jobs, take a guess which leads would get priority? 



CApainter said:


> I mean, with all the emphasis (at PT) placed on SEO's, web site usability, and LGS's (Lead Generating Sites), is it really that crucial to be referral based when the activities listed above are intended to mine for new clients?


When you are running a business, especially when you are just getting started, referrals are just not coming, in staggering numbers. So a businessmen needs to market his business in “any” and “everyway” possible. 

Years ago, it was, “Advertise in the Phone Book” and Today it is the “World Wide Web”. And through it all, Referrals are, and will always be, your #1 leads. Everything else is 2nd.


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