# Technology and your personal information.



## Last Craftsman

George Z said:


> I thought I would share the following list
> of free or very inexpenive tools we have been using.
> 
> This one has been a life saver https://www.dropbox.com/
> 
> 
> Almost three years of this one and works so good http://www.tsheets.com/
> 
> 
> Google http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html
> 
> 
> and now finally http://www.zoho.com/crm/index.html



Big brother has got it all now.


----------



## bikerboy

Last Craftsman said:


> Big brother has got it all now.


Considering that Google keeps all data (they don't delete it like yahoo and others) , any searches you've made and is now working through a subsidiary with Homeland Security on an internet keyword tracking system. (Think NSA's Cray supercomputers and keywords) I'd be leary of putting that much of my life online. One disgruntled federal employee and.........


----------



## ewingpainting.net

I'm with you BB, storing my data on googles server scares me.


----------



## vermontpainter

Following that logic, it's probably not safe to talk, text, email or go online from our cell phones, or email through quickbooks, or upload to YouTube or download from iTunes or the app store...


----------



## Last Craftsman

vermontpainter said:


> Following that logic, it's probably not safe to talk, text, email or go online from our cell phones, or email through quickbooks, or upload to YouTube or download from iTunes or the app store...


Whether it is safe use these "services" to enhance my everyday activities is not really the issue for me.

It's the principle of the matter. Are we supposed to be free?

Don't you find it alarming, that there is Onstar, "drop box", "my home PC", cameras at traffic lights tied into biometric recognition systems, human microchips for tracking purposes, "Thought crime" legislation, pilot programs where everytime your car goes under a traffic light, it reads a computer chip in your car, then sends you "helpful" information by email that tells you if your car needs to be serviced, and if you were going to fast, and exactly what route you took to "suggest" more fuel economic routes.

You know they have cars now that stop automatically if you are going to back into something, different cars that stop automatically if you are going to rear end someone, cars that park themselves, cars that actually TAKE OVER the steering if you are on the freeway and perform a driving manuever that the computer decides is not safe.

Connect the dots.

Do you really want there to be cross platform data-mining of every single aspect of your life? It won't stop. How about inside your home, is that your dominion? Do you want sovereignty there at least? There are pilot programs where all of the light fixtures and appliances in homes are wired up to the local power station to "experiment" with centrally controlled settings that turn things on an off automatically in the home to conserve power to the grid at certain times of day or night.

Want to make a fried egg sandwich at 2:30 in the morning?

Too bad, electricity doesn't come on until 6:00.

Are we free? Will your children be free? Will they grow up just being used to the fact that there are cameras everywhere, including on their school issued laptops that keep track of, moniter, and critique their every action, word, and thought? 

For me, it's a matter of principle.

Live free or die.


----------



## straight_lines

Last Craftsman said:


> Whether it is safe use these "services" to enhance my everyday activities is not really the issue for me.
> 
> It's the principle of the matter. Are we supposed to be free?
> 
> Don't you find it alarming, that there is Onstar, "drop box", "my home PC", cameras at traffic lights tied into biometric recognition systems, human microchips for tracking purposes, "Thought crime" legislation, pilot programs where everytime your car goes under a traffic light, it reads a computer chip in your car, then sends you "helpful" information by email that tells you if your car needs to be serviced, and if you were going to fast, and exactly what route you took to "suggest" more fuel economic routes.
> 
> You know they have cars now that stop automatically if you are going to back into something, different cars that stop automatically if you are going to rear end someone, cars that park themselves, cars that actually TAKE OVER the steering if you are on the freeway and perform a driving manuever that the computer decides is not safe.
> 
> Connect the dots.
> 
> Do you really want there to be cross platform data-mining of every single aspect of your life? It won't stop. How about inside your home, is that your dominion? Do you want sovereignty there at least? There are pilot programs where all of the light fixtures and appliances in homes are wired up to the local power station to "experiment" with centrally controlled settings that turn things on an off automatically in the home to conserve power to the grid at certain times of day or night.
> 
> Want to make a fried egg sandwich at 2:30 in the morning?
> 
> Too bad, electricity doesn't come on until 6:00.
> 
> Are we free? Will your children be free? Will they grow up just being used to the fact that there are cameras everywhere, including on their school issued laptops that keep track of, moniter, and critique their every action, word, and thought?
> 
> For me, it's a matter of principle.
> 
> Live free or die.


 I don't think we are ever really free, when it costs so much just to live a simple life. We are slaves to consumerism from birth in the US.

Tech is a natural progression of mankind imo. What worries me is when the machines become self aware. Sky Net isn't something that I think is all Sci-Fi, it really could happen.


----------



## Last Craftsman

I don't want to Hi-Jack Georges thread.

I also don't want my sentiments to come across that I don't very much appreciate George Z's intention which was to provide/share some tools that members of this forum would find useful or helpful.

Also I honestly am not trying to suggest that if people find the tools useful, that they should not use them based on what I have posted. And I am not finding fault or criticizing anyone who uses these tools.

If one of the mods would like to move the posts in this thread that are diverging from the OP's original intent, and have taken on a new topic to the _off topic_ section, I would be much obliged.

That way this thread can continue with the goal that George Z intended.


----------



## RCP

How's this?

Good topic, LC, somehow I knew you would have an opinion!:notworthy:

It is amazing what you can find out about people on line these days. If I can find out where someone lives, their hobbies, music tastes, etc from a simple google search, imagine what others could do.

Just last night I got an email RFQ, no last name or addy, but using the email addy I was able to find out a lot! Rob commented that it would probably freak them out if I responded using some of that info!


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Chris, if you could find where I left my keys. I'd really appreciate it.


----------



## RCP

Look in the third bush from the southeast corner of your house, they fell out when you were getting rid of that last martini!
Love Google Earth!


----------



## RCP

Is your pool still empty Gabe? Do you just go over to your neighbors now?:whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter

I have to admit, what creeps me out more than everything described by lc is that was just in the free hand vs tape thread and the google ad at the top is for blue tape. Same happens in a lot of threads, the ad pops up to fit the thread topic. Wingate media solutions has us. Captive audience.


----------



## DeanV

What I find interesting is that I see different adds on PaintTalk from my wife's computer vs. my computer. I think google tracks searches and tweaks the adds accordingly. When we were looking for a suburban to buy, all the adds on PaintTalk from her computer where Chevy truck adds (since she was the one doing the searching and convincing to buy a suburban).


----------



## George Z

LC, I don't mind when people hijack threads.
Free Spirits at work here.

I think you will get me when I say the following:
This large database we are all too scared to be in, 
we were arguably in already.
The difference now is, you have the freedom of association in a big way
like you never had before.
Information is there for anyone to find.
Still controlled by similar powers but you have a greater chance of getting to it.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

RCP said:


> Is your pool still empty Gabe? Do you just go over to your neighbors now?:whistling2:


Ya, I just got get rid of that. Hated that thing, that was one of those wife surprises when I got home from work. My wife said "guess what were doing this weekend", as it was sitting in the garage.  
Got my keys thanks. :thumbsup:


----------



## Last Craftsman

RCP said:


> Rob commented that it would probably freak them out if I responded using some of that info!


If you were less than scrupulous, you could use just that little bit of information to pander to their interests without them even knowing it, thus giving you an edge over those who didn't. That information gives you the ability to use psychological and emotional manipulation techniques unbeknown to your "target".

And of course we know that the information which is 10 times more private and sensitive is safe because no one is "less than scrupulous" at the federal level.



By the way, it's not just your time cards, and whereabouts that are centrally monitored and tracked by software and thought police, it's your medical records, psychological profile, interest groups, political affiliations etc.

George Orwell was either a complete psychic, or he was able to make educated guesses way back in 1949 based on information that he had and the obvious projection of the curve he witnessed at the time.

As a general rule I believe calculated analysis over psychic phenomenon.

Either way, the dude was a genius.


----------



## Workaholic

A little paranoia can be a good thing, it can help keep you sharp. A lot of paranoia is not a good thing, you start to see more than is truly there. 

If the feds are interested in any of you then you have some skeletons in your closet.


----------



## vermontpainter

And I suppose you think rrp was more about lead paint than compiling a list of all of us, and funded by us? :jester:


----------



## bikerboy

Here's another "harmless" state tracking item. The Chesapeake Bay Bridge in Maryland has been using an experimental license plate tracking software. It take a digital photo of your plate and logs it, with time and date. The info has already been used in court cases.


----------



## Workaholic

vermontpainter said:


> And I suppose you think rrp was more about lead paint than compiling a list of all of us, and funded by us? :jester:


Maybe you are right Scott, you make a strong case. I think the feds are trying to get all of us lined up so they can insert a microchip in all of our kind to study our habits and track our whereabouts in the winter months. 
Why Nathan is probably being paid a huge salary to get us out of our hideyholes and in to the federal light.


----------



## bikerboy

DeanV said:


> . I think google tracks searches and tweaks the adds accordingly. When we were looking for a suburban to buy, all the adds on PaintTalk from her computer where Chevy truck adds (since she was the one doing the searching and convincing to buy a suburban).


Google does track your searches and uses that info for ad placement. Your search info can also be subjected to supoena and used against you.


----------



## Workaholic

bikerboy said:


> Here's another "harmless" state tracking item. The Chesapeake Bay Bridge in Maryland has been using an experimental license plate tracking software. It take a digital photo of your plate and logs it, with time and date. The info has already been used in court cases.


They have been doing this for years look at all the street cameras at every intersection. When they want your wife to register you like a dog then you know we were all sleeping at the wheel.


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> Maybe you are right Scott, you make a strong case. I think the feds are trying to get all of us lined up so they can insert a microchip in all of our kind to study our habits and track our whereabouts in the winter months.
> Why Nathan is probably being paid a huge salary to get us out of our hideyholes and in to the federal light.


You laugh. I got a little concerned when my certificate, which is required to be with me at all times for compliance, stuck to the magnet on my cell phone case. There's a chip in it.


----------



## bikerboy

Workaholic said:


> They have been doing this for years look at all the street cameras at every intersection. When they want your wife to register you like a dog then you know we were all sleeping at the wheel.


Street cameras are only supposed to be triggered by speeding. This software logs your info everytime just because you cross the bridge. I guess I supposed a right to privacy existed and am concerned when any corporation or govermentdecides to go beyond what most deem resonable. 

Your freedoms and privacy will not be lost in one fell swoop. They will disappear a little at a time.


----------



## vermontpainter

Somehow I actually see more potential for good than bad in a program like that.


----------



## DeanV

Of course, if going over the speed limit is the only trigger, 90% of cars will have the picture taken.


----------



## bikerboy

To each has own. I veiw it as one more small step to losing our right to privacy, but it is up to each individual to determine what an acceptable level of goverment powered information gathering is.

Privacy rights, search and seizure, probable cause has always been big topics to me.


----------



## Workaholic

vermontpainter said:


> You laugh. I got a little concerned when my certificate, which is required to be with me at all times for compliance, stuck to the magnet on my cell phone case. There's a chip in it.


They are really interested in the enigma that is Scott Burt, 



bikerboy said:


> To each has own. I veiw it as one more small step to losing our right to privacy, but it is up to each individual to determine what an acceptable level of goverment powered information gathering is.
> 
> Privacy rights, search and seizure, probable cause has always been big topics to me.


They use many laws as agents to overstep boundaries, the seat belt law being one of them but the laws still do a lot of good and save many lives in the process.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Workaholic said:


> A little paranoia can be a good thing, it can help keep you sharp. A lot of paranoia is not a good thing, you start to see more than is truly there.


"A little", or "a lot" is subjective depending on how much information you have.

For example if you had the knowledge that there was a rapist targeting your neighborhood, so you requested that your wife didn't go jogging at night, you might be considered "paranoid" by those who didn't know there was a rapist targeting the neighborhood, and who had no concerns about their wife going jogging at night.

And anyone who falls into the general realm of the status quo regarding this technology, simply does not have the knowledge of things that are going on behind the scenes.

That doesn't make someone paranoid who does have knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes, it makes them aware.

One of the possibilities is that they are paranoid and delusional, and incorrect, the other is that they actually are correct, and the it is the general consensus which actually is not correct. 



Workaholic said:


> If the feds are interested in any of you then you have some skeletons in your closet.


Well right now they are interested in you if you are a "gun owner", "home school" your children, "make numerous references to the constitution", believe in "conspiracy theories".

These things are all currently considered a potential threat.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Workaholic said:


> They have been doing this for years look at all the street cameras at every intersection. When they want your wife to register you like a dog then you know we were all sleeping at the wheel.


Registering you likea dog is old news, the human microchip for people is already a reality. And was approved by the FDA in 2004. (verichip) There has already been legislative talk of potential mandatory scenarios. To protect us of course.

Lets move on...





 (Actual technology, that actually reads the electromagnetic signatures created by the specific and unique electrical impulses of a specific and unique THOUGHT, and can read these signatures when you THINK of a specific word, or have a specific emotion.) Also actual technology that is being use to PREDICT YOUR INTENTIONS by reading the EM signature your brain produces when exposed to possible choices. Kind of like that fictional movie "Minority Report" (Except not fiction)








..









...


----------



## Last Craftsman

echo...echo...echo...echo...


----------



## RCP

LOL @ LC! 
I for one have no desire to engage you in a battle of the wits on this subject! :notworthy::notworthy:


----------



## Workaholic

Science has always been that way. We dabble in matters that we probably should not but have a desire to know and answer our own questions. 

It was an interesting youtube link with the FMRI but I have heard about the study before. My point in my comments prior was that conspiracy theory's are interesting but they are easy to find more than what may be there once you start.


----------



## VanDamme

Last Craftsman said:


> echo...echo...echo...echo...


I made the decision many years ago to participate in this thing AL Gore invented :no: called the Internet. I also made the decision that anything I post on the Internet could be read and archived by anyone in the world.

I also live by the realization that the Government, should they choose, could get access to any and all of my information including information on SSL sites like banking, brokerage, bidness accounts, etc. 

While I'm not a big fan of that, as I think it crosses some privacy issues, I also realize that there is little we can do to prevent it short of packing up and moving to the mountains to live off the land, and that sounds like work to me Haha!


----------



## bikerboy

That's where the bulk of the problem lies. As long as citizens are willing to succumb to the errosion of freedoms, the goverment is willing to push the envelope. There is plenty people can do, most just won't.


----------



## VanDamme

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by George Z
> I thought I would share the following list
> of free or very inexpenive tools we have been using.
> 
> This one has been a life saver https://www.dropbox.com/
> 
> 
> Almost three years of this one and works so good http://www.tsheets.com/
> 
> 
> Google http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html
> 
> 
> and now finally http://www.zoho.com/crm/index.html
> 
> *Big brother has got it all now.*


LC, What exactly does BB have now that it couldn't have 10 years ago w/warrants?


----------



## VanDamme

bikerboy said:


> That's where the bulk of the problem lies. As long as citizens are willing to succumb to the errosion of freedoms, the goverment is willing to push the envelope. There is plenty people can do, most just won't.


So...what's your plan to prevent this?


----------



## vermontpainter

I always feel like somebodys watching me.


----------



## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> I always feel like somebodys watching me.


They are!


----------



## vermontpainter

The utne reader had a article recently about how dhs considers painters who spend excessive time on the internet to be a high risk category, one of the largest growing risk groups in the past few years, particularly between the months of November and march. 

The article cited a group of disenchanted painters who met online and over time labeled themselves the Cropdusters. These guys evidently were intercepted in a plot to charter a small plane and fly it over middle America disseminating hazardous waste, mostly used paint thinner and scrap oil base enamels through a piston pump at 5000 ft. (517 tips on two guns split off a single hose drawing off multiple 55 gal drums). 

We are a demographic that is capable of tremendous uprising if disturbed. The article likened the Cropdusters to a domestic terror cell. 

Creepy.


----------



## VanDamme

> (517 tips on two guns split off a single hose drawing off multiple 55 gal drums).


That plane better have a large gas tank!


----------



## VanDamme

Has anyone notice the multiple cameras at each intersection and on the freeways? These are so called "traffic cameras"


----------



## Last Craftsman

RCP said:


> LOL @ LC!
> I for one have no desire to engage you in a battle of the wits on this subject! :notworthy::notworthy:


I was actually just more interested in what people thought about specifically the links to mind reading, or as Carnegie Mellon gleefully refers to it:

"Thought identification" , and controlling objects with your mind etc.

It doesn't bother me if people aren't as alarmed as I am about the big brother aspect. 

Completely seperate from that, what did people think about the new technology they are working on to actually read one's mind? And determine intentions? And eletronically map out visual cortex to produce images on computer moniter?

Those are some very significant changes on the timeline of humanity. I am interested in what people think about them, regardless of any potential nefarious usage of such technologies.


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> LC, What exactly does BB have now that it couldn't have 10 years ago w/warrants?


Well, warrants have been done away with in many cases. With anti-terrorism acts passed since 911.

But to truly answer to your question, I wouldn't even know where to start.

Pertaining to what's been referred to in the thread already, I have read many different dialogues about implementing tracking chips and the "thought Identification" technology for "our protection".

BILLIONS have been spent on developing the technology specifically for humans. People usually don't spend billions on a technology they wont be using.

But to answer your question, is really beyond the scope of this thread.

I will tell you this: ANYONE who wants to know, does not have to dig much to find enough factual information that completely contradicts the paradigm and the complete bull**** spin that is on the news every night.

It really boils down to if people are willing to objectively review information that might shake them to their core. That is really the bottom line, most people are afraid to do that.

And that fear spans the spectrum of every political party, and left/right whatever.

People are people. Even groups/subcultures of people who would identify their group specifically as being objective and open minded recoil into cognitive dissonance and denial when their paradigm is threatened.

The truth shall set you free.

I just encourage people not to be content to settle for lies simply because it is more comfortable in the short term.

Ultimately people doing that is the actual problem. And the few nefarious people in the world totally capitalize on the fact that liberals, conservatives, and everything in between, ultimately are afraid of knowing things which would completely change their world view.


----------



## Last Craftsman

bikerboy said:


> That's where the bulk of the problem lies. As long as citizens are willing to succumb to the errosion of freedoms, the goverment is willing to push the envelope. There is plenty people can do, most just won't.



^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I couldn't agree more. 

:thumbsup:


----------



## VanDamme

Last Craftsman said:


> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
> 
> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> :thumbsup:


OK......Same question as I asked BB. What are you doing to stop this?

I mean, it's simple as shi!t to sit here and say we're not going to put up with it. Whatever "it" is. It's the "armchair quarterback" mentality.

You're on the Web, so I assume you don't totally object to all this information flowing freely around the world?

People thought BB was taking over when SS numbers were issued. If that's their plan, they sure aren't moving very quickly.


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> OK......Same question as I asked BB. What are you doing to stop this?


I do plenty.

Why don't you ask your self what YOU are doing? That is really the only relevant use of that question.




VanDamme said:


> People thought BB was taking over when SS numbers were issued. If that's their plan, they sure aren't moving very quickly.


Lol. This is so funny. There isn't anything you could mention to invalidate my position, that I haven't put dozens of hours into.

You want to know about social security? It's ironic you should bring it up considering what has been covered in this thread already.

Ultimately IBM was used to track everyone when the social security act of 1935 was enacted.

Ibm was used to tabulate all of the U.S. census information.

Ibm ran the Holereth punch card machines at the Nazi concentration camps to classify and keep track of the various prisoners. IBM actually had personel in Germany running the punch card machines, and supplied Hitler with the actual punch cards, to "make the trains run on time", and kill prisoners in an orderly and systematic fashion.

And to bring this back to this thread, Ibm FUNDED... guess who...VERICHIP. That's right, they loaned Verichip $80,000,000, but let them default on $60,000,000.

So basically they contributed $60,000,000 to Verichip for the devolopment and implementation of implantable human microchips. 

-------------------

I would say it's moving along at a fair pace. Besides things are done incrementally, not all at once.

VanDamme you should stop trying to find fault with people for stating provable facts. That doesn't make sense. 

You can try to disprove the facts. You could even say in your opinion the facts aren't worthy of concern. But why question me for simply stating facts?

I am just an armchair quarterback after all!



Hey BIKER BOY... REd..White..Blue...1776!


*STATUE OF LIBERTY PLAY!!!*


----------



## VanDamme

Calm down. I'm not attempting to invalidate anything......I just don't automatically jump on the conspiracy bus because someone says to.

So, you are doing plenty to stop "this", eh? Interesting. Do you mind sharing what that is so others can join the cause?

I hear "We better stop it now or it will be too late", yet no one has had a viable solution except to write your congressman.

What I'm asking is what exactly is the problem and what exactly is the solution?


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> Calm down. I'm not attempting to invalidate anything......I just don't automatically jump on the conspiracy bus because someone says to.


Fair enough.

I apologize. I breathed a lot of paint yesterday in an enclosed area.

I have noticed I havea tendency to snap at people when that happens.

Actually I have noticed it in a lot of painters.



VanDamme said:


> So, you are doing plenty to stop "this", eh? Interesting.


This statement sounds less than genuine.

I told you I am doing plenty. You can believe me or not.



VanDamme said:


> Do you mind sharing what that is so others can join the cause?


I have shared quite a bit. Go back and read the post I made where I encouraged people to LEARN these issues by their own initiative.

It is your responsibility. You will have to take the reigns for your own life. I can't do it for you.



VanDamme said:


> I hear "We better stop it now or it will be too late", yet no one has had a viable solution except to write your congressman.
> 
> What I'm asking is what exactly is the problem and what exactly is the solution?


Again, the answer to "what exactly is the problem" is way beyond the scope of this thread, and forum, it is a HUGE SUBJECT.

I do my best to try to have some degree of reverence for the stated intent for this web forum. I am probably skirting the boundaries as it is with my occasional ventings. I try not to have my presence even come close to tipping the balance of the intended topic of this web forum. At least when it relates to "what is the problem" about things that don't relate to painting.

And I don't claim to to know exactly how to quantify the entire subject any way. 

But I have suggested to you philosophies which are not the answer itself, but if utilized will give the answers you asked for, and will facilitate you being part of the solution.

My PM box is currently full, I will clean it out when I get back from work, and if you want more specific answers I will try to accommodate them by PM.


----------



## SterlingPainting

No such thing as privacy anymore. Did you know that as soon as you give google your personal information that legally it isn't "yours" anymore? 

Check this 2 hour doc if you want to scare the bejeezus out of yourself:

http://www.documentary-log.com/you-are-watching-privacy-is-dead-get-over-it/

It's a talk from a PI who used the internet to find people. He said as soon as they've got the phone number, they can get just about anything on you. And thats a private citizen - legally.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Also, it's good to know that a new euphemism, I mean "name" has been created for the Verichip system:

"Positive ID".

That sounds good doesn't it? I mean, it has the word "positive" in the title, how could it possibly be bad?

The multi-national conglomerate has merged the implantable microchip, "Verichip", with "Steel Vault", a system which is designed to to catalogue and access consumer data...Note the word "PROTECT" prominently on their home page. This is all being done for our protection. I just can't wait to be "protected" by an implantable microchip which has ALL of my *"critical consumer data"*, and *"medical data"*, in one handy, dandy, little chip resting nicely in my sub-cutaneous layer.

:thumbup:

Here is an excerpt from their "about page"...



> PositiveID represents the convergence of a pioneer in personal health records and the first and only FDA-cleared implantable microchip for patient identification, VeriChip, with a leader in the identity security space, Steel Vault, focused on access and security of consumers' critical data.


-------

Pause for a moment to reflect on these wise words from Ben Franklin:

*"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"*


----------



## Workaholic

Damn Sheeple


----------



## vermontpainter

I heard another clip about the crop-dusters on NPR yesterday. I'm surprised there isn't more dismay about this. For all we know, they could have been lurking here.


----------



## VanDamme

Workaholic said:


> Damn Sheeple


Bahhhh


----------



## Last Craftsman

Hey, VanDamme,

I sent a PM. Were you actually looking for answers to your questions?


----------



## VanDamme

Last Craftsman said:


> Hey, VanDamme,
> 
> I sent a PM. Were you actually looking for answers to your questions?


I'm good. Appreciate it though.


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> I'm good. Appreciate it though.


Lol.

So the questions that you presented as earnest inquiry earlier in the thread, served what purpose then, exactly?

Apparently, the questions were not asked with the intent of actually receiving an answer.

In the infamous words of Rick James:

"Cognitive dissonance is a hell uv'a drug."


----------



## Last Craftsman

vermontpainter said:


> I heard another clip about the crop-dusters on NPR yesterday. I'm surprised there isn't more dismay about this. For all we know, they could have been lurking here.



Truth is stranger than fiction.


----------



## VanDamme

Last Craftsman said:


> Lol.
> 
> So the questions that you presented as earnest inquiry earlier in the thread, served what purpose then, exactly?
> 
> Apparently, the questions were not asked with the intent of actually receiving an answer.
> 
> In the infamous words of Rick James:
> 
> "Cognitive dissonance is a hell uv'a drug."


Not necessarily. I figured you could answer in the forum, but no problem. I really don't have the desire to get in to a long discussion via PM about this. Hell......I'm pretty proud of myself when I answer a few emails! LOL

What the gist of my messages were, someone can read and believe whatever they want on the Internet/Web. AKA, the power of persuasion. Hell........I can read about the "Fake" moon landing for 3 hours and start to question if it really happened.

If all someone does is read conspiracy theory websites, then they may very well start to believe that everything is a conspiracy.

I'm not saying the Gov. isn't out to "get us", but I don't believe it's as bad as some suggest.


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> Not necessarily. I figured you could answer in the forum,


So you actually didn't want to know "eh? interesting."



Incidentally, clicking on a PM is not any more labor intensive than clicking on a link to a thread in the forum. 

In addition to the challenge of "armchair quarterback", you made a pretty big deal about the follwing questions:

"What exactly is the problem", and "What are YOU doing about it"?

Seeing as how it appears that you actually aren't truly interested in the answer to either of those questions, is it possible that you were asking them from a combative standpoint?

From my perspective, particularly in reference to the latter question, you are applying that expectation to others, but it doesn't apply to yourself.



VanDamme said:


> What the gist of my messages were, someone can read and believe whatever they want on the Internet/Web. AKA, the power of persuasion. Hell........I can read about the "Fake" moon landing for 3 hours and start to question if it really happened.


I don't see how this comment applies to the sequence of facts that I presented. It does however closely resemble a straw man fallacy in the context of this thread.



VanDamme said:


> If all someone does is read conspiracy theory websites, then they may very well start to believe that everything is a conspiracy.


And this applies to whom?

I do acknowledge that you have presented a possible scenario. It is also possible that someone could witness an automobile running over a stray dog, then arrive at the conclusion that automobiles were designed for the express purpose of eradicating stray dogs.

But I don't see how your comment applies to what I had presented in this thread. I personally can say that none of my knowledge comes from a singular source/agenda such as "conspiracy websites" but rather a great variety of sources such as, Library of Congress, Mainstream news, the Founding Fathers, corporate web pages, etc. 

Allow me to take a turn at suggesting a random possible scenario. It is quite common.

A person(s) starts their reasoning from the position that there is no conspiracy. Then, no matter what information they are exposed to, they only give credence to evidence that supports a conclusion, which is predicated on this belief which they possess.

They then conclude that any evidence that comes along which supports the premise that there IS a conspiracy, can't possibly be true, because, they have already arrived at the conclusion that there isn't one. And if the evidence that supports the premise that there is a conspiracy is not true, therefore, the premise that there is a conspiracy, must be incorrect.

Additionally, they take the opportunity to call into question any stated premise that there is a "conspiracy", and the facts used to support this premise, but they provide ZERO evidence to the contrary.

Relying instead on emotional bias ( the truth is whatever makes them feel good ), and an "appeal to popularity" fallacy to bolster their position.

There is a general disposition of mockery, towards the person who simply stated an assortment of facts, yet when challenged, the condescending party(s) always avoid at all costs going down any path that would result in their OWN position/belief being scrutinized.


I have always found this dynamic quite fascinating. 




VanDamme said:


> I'm not saying the Gov. isn't out to "get us",


I am not saying that "the government" IS out to get us. I believe the vast majority of people in "the government" are not part of any conspiracy, and actually are there with the intention of doing the job they were elected/hired for. This however does not preclude the possibility that they could be unwittingly serving a purpose to advance an agenda which they have no knowledge of.

I believe that the amount of people in the world who are "out to get us" is actually a very small percentage. But the small percentage wields a very large percentage of the power.

About what you said earlier:



VanDamme said:


> ....I just don't automatically jump on the conspiracy bus because someone says to.


I don't feel that accurately represents my posts. I actually quite clearly stated earlier in the thread a sentiment very much to the contrary.

I would never expect you to believe something "just because someone says to"

I really wasn't "expecting" a belief from you, but rather I simply stated a premise that was not in relation to you, which incidentally I did actually present quite a few actual pertinent facts which supported my premise.

To suggest that I expected you to believe something "just because someone says to" doesn't just misrepresent my position, but it is completely dismissive of the fact that I provided a LOT of very pertinent evidence to support my premise.

It's possible that I am wrong about the facts I have presented, it is possible that I am wrong about the conclusion I am drawing from those facts, but surely I didn't project an expectation that you should believe my premise based on something so baseless as "Because I said so"



VanDamme said:


> but I don't believe it's as bad as some suggest.


This particular statement you have made, I can and do respect.


----------



## bikerboy

What I don't understand is how we jump to "conspiracy". I realy don't believe that a group of people sit around and come up with this technology from the express purpose of nibbling at your liberty.

Do believe that politicians and others in the employ of the goverment try to use technology to further thier idealogical goals. Whether it's used to destroy one's personal life and make them irrelevant or to force them support a point of view, the lure of the power it gives over another is intoxicating to some.

As far as frequenting "conspiracy" websites, sorry, I read a lot. Several papers and magazines a week, a few with differing points of view. I'd preffer to think of my self as well informed.

As far as what am I doing about it? Apparently wasting my breath. Most people are content to be lazy and let others lift thier leg on them. 

I understand the apathy. Politics and world events are boring for most (guess I am a little weird) and it's easy to feel powerless.


----------



## VanDamme

LC.......You are using "Debate 101" tactics that I'm just not in the mood to participate in, like answering a question by asking a different question. I should have never got involved in this thread as it's not all that interesting to me.

If you look back, on of the first questions I asked after you said "Big Brother Has It All now" I asked what exactly does BB have and your answer was "But to truly answer to your question, I wouldn't even know where to start." and started going off on thought processing, Verichips and just about everything else. 

I simply asked what you and Biker were doing to "combat" this? I still don't know other than the truth will set me free?

I've stated that I'm not that worried about it, but in classic "Debate 101" fashion, you want me to "prove" my point(s) and then you can progress on to saying I should be worried about it and to stop being a sheeple.


----------



## vermontpainter

Apathy relaxes me.


----------



## NEPS.US

LC - How many times have you viewed "Loose Change"?


----------



## RCP

Alright, how'd LC get around the word limit block?!

I lost him after he ran over the dog?!?


----------



## Last Craftsman

VanDamme said:


> LC.......You are using "Debate 101" tactics


That is your assertion.

It seems to me like you are using tactics, which is why I listed the argumentative fallacies you were employing, and that ultimately you were not interested in honestly pursing answers, but rather some other motivation. 



VanDamme said:


> I should have never got involved in this thread as it's not all that interesting to me.


Lol, I agree with you there, if something doesn't interest you, don't pursue it. That is usually a sound plan.



VanDamme said:


> If you look back, on of the first questions I asked after you said "Big Brother Has It All now", I asked what exactly does BB have and your answer was "But to truly answer to your question, I wouldn't even know where to start."


I did partially answer your questions at that point. I said in a lot of cases warrants have been done away with. And that's a fact, not an opinion.



VanDamme said:


> and started going off on thought processing, Verichips and just about everything else.


You wanted to know what "the problem" was. That is an unquantifiable question, that ultimately requires hundreds if not thousands of smaller "answers", I provided only a few, but I would have to write an entire book in the PaintTalk forums, in order to try answer your question, so instead I told you I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability by private message.



VanDamme said:


> I simply asked what you and Biker were doing to "combat" this? I still don't know other than the truth will set me free?


"I still don't know" is kind of an ironic sentiment, considering, I sent you a PM offering to answer your questions, and help you figure out "what you can do about it", just like I said I would, and you declined.



VanDamme said:


> I've stated that I'm not that worried about it, but in classic "Debate 101" fashion, you want me to "prove" my point(s)


Again this is your assertion. I wasn't saying you should prove your points, I was saying don't find fault with MY points, but then shy away from proving your points.



VanDamme said:


> and then you can progress on to saying I should be worried about it and to stop being a sheeple.


This is not only complete speculation as to what I "would do in the future", but it is in contradiction to what I have already told you which is that I "respect" your statement that you "don't believe it is as bad as some suggest". And also, I did not introduce the word "Sheeple" into the thread.

And I also did not produce the clever retort: "Bahhhh".

Your statement also contradicts what I said when I asked the mods to split this topic off from GeorgeZ's original thread which was:



Last Craftsman said:


> "Also I honestly am not trying to suggest that if people find the tools useful, that they should not use them based on what I have posted. And I am not finding fault or criticizing anyone who uses these tools."


and I also said this which I meant, and you are asserting that I don't mean:



Last Craftsman said:


> "It doesn't bother me if people aren't as alarmed as I am about the big brother aspect. "


That was in post #43.

In which BTW, I truly did try and have an interest in steering the conversation away from anything "conspiracy" related, and get people's ideas and thoughts on the other issues, and affects related to the mind interfacing technology that is being developed.

I truly was disappointed that no one was interested in pursuing that tangent. There are a LOT of interesting directions that information could lead in a dialogue that have nothing to do with anything nefarious, or conspiratorial, and I truly would have loved to explore some of those directions.

It's the dawning of a new age. It is quite likely that lots of thing will change very drastically as a result of the technology. Not just for the worse.

This technology could also possibly empower individuals with tools to do good that could never have been conceptualized.


----------



## Last Craftsman

NEPS.US said:


> LC - How many times have you viewed "Loose Change"?


I watched part of it.

A lot of that information I was aware of already.

I watched it enough to realize that I agree with a lot of the information that was being presented, and I didn't need to finish watching it.

I think a few of the tangents explored are not absolutely provable, but there are plenty of rock solid provable facts in the film, that should change anyone's paradigm if they are honest with themselves, and assuming that their paradigm hasn't been changed already. 

My opinion is, overall, it is a good film. From the parts that I have seen I mean. I can't attest to the end. I suppose I should finish watching it, before I go recommending it.


----------



## Last Craftsman

RCP said:


> I lost him after he ran over the dog?!?


It's unfortunate that I had to use that example to illustrate my point, I am a dog lover!


----------



## Workaholic

My guess is this thread is burning Arch's brain and he will find a way to shuck off the chains, shackle and gag and fly in here frothing at the mouth.


----------



## KLaw

This is a very interesting and lengthy thread.

I see the verichip seems to be a topic of conversation. I wonder how many parents or other loved ones wished they had one of these chips in their spouse, child, or other loved one that got kidnapped, raped, or / and killed?

What liberties are being tacking away? You stated less warrants. What if the police showed up to individual's homes without warrants? What harm does that cause? Come through my home, turn it upside down (put it back like you found it). Come up to me hanging on a street corner and search me for a gun or drugs without a warrant. Where is the harm? I wonder if that would take more guns / drugs off of the streets? Just playing Devil's Advocate. Also, giving LC the chance to elaborate some more.


----------



## Last Craftsman

KLaw said:


> Also, giving LC the chance to elaborate some more.


Honesly, I am not trying to be evasive. I think the thread is close to having run it's course. I would pretty much be re-iterating myself to answer your questions.

Unless we can pursue some of the non-nefarious, non-conspiratorial ideas pertaining to the technology I mentioned.

Klaw, BTW, I do appreciate the tone of your questions, I did not perceive them to be antagonistic in any way. I recognize that you were asking them with honest intentions, and they are good, and valid questions.


----------



## KLaw

LC: You read the tone correctly. I was not trying to be antagonistic at all. Just curious as to your opinion about the "real" harm of warrantless searches - as long as the only items / info obtained from these were for illegal items.


----------



## NEPS.US

LC: Could you please keep your posts under 20 words so Ksev can follow along? - Thanks


----------



## VanDamme

> I did partially answer your questions at that point. I said in a lot of cases warrants have been done away with. And that's a fact, not an opinion.


The original question was: LC, What exactly does BB have now that it couldn't have 10 years ago w/warrants?

Argh! I know what's happened *since* 911 2001 That's why I asked what the Gov. has now that it couldn't have 10 years ago w/warrants.

Anyway......no need to answer.


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> LC: Could you please keep your posts under 20 words so Ksev can follow along? - Thanks


This is funny how y'all operate. If I was to call NEPS a punk out bitch like he is - I would get banned. But since the baby girl is part of the "possy" he gets a pass. Get your ban card ready - hipocrites (sp).


----------



## NEPS.US

My point Ksev, was that you admit on several occasions that you are too lazy to read a post over three sentences. I just asked LC to keep the word count down so you two could have a battle of wit's, even tho we know you are unarmed.


----------



## vermontpainter

I'm worst at what I do best
And for this gift I feel blessed 
Our little group has always been
And always will be til the end

Hello Hello How Low How Low


----------



## vermontpainter

Or Denial.


----------



## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Or Denial.


:lol: You DF!:sleep1:


----------

