# Unique cabinet prep question



## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I checked out a set this morning. I generally refinish stained sets and this was, "a high end," factory painted set. 
I wasn't too impressed.

So, 10 years later, some of that fuzzy wood ***t is coming up through bubbling paint. Only on a few choice areas. But still. Small in the scope of things, big to me.

My coatings of choice are BIN and Breakthrough.

I know just sanding the fuzzy wood won't get me very far. My mind is drifting towards using West systems epoxy to get those spots wicked hard, sanding and applying to perfection.....but honestly idk. Idk about flashing. I'm in uncharted territory here. 

I can just sand and put down some crackshot. 
I know that won't last how I want it to- I don't have a hack reputation, nor do I want to make one.

Anyone have insight or experience with this scenario?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I would just sand the crap out of those spots, prime them with Bin, and sand them again, and maybe prime them again. The bin should harden them up enough to sand down without a problem.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I agree. So long as they don't end up with gouges (the furry bubbling is pretty pronounced).

Which brings up the question, what is a procedure if one encounters gouges? In the past, for small nail holes I've seen crackshot to suffice. For something with larger surface area, I think my harder "go-to" west systems...is overkill.....but it is in stock.....


What do ya'll use to level deep or larger surface imperfections?


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Center_line_Painting said:


> I agree. So long as they don't end up with gouges (the furry bubbling is pretty pronounced).
> 
> Which brings up the question, what is a procedure if one encounters gouges? In the past, for small nail holes I've seen crackshot to suffice. For something with larger surface area, I think my harder "go-to" west systems...is overkill.....but it is in stock.....
> 
> ...


Anything up to a 1/4" deep and wide we'll use MH ready patch. Larger holes, edges and corners get epoxy. 

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Center_line_Painting said:


> I checked out a set this morning. I generally refinish stained sets and this was, "a high end," factory painted set.
> I wasn't too impressed.
> 
> So, 10 years later, some of that fuzzy wood ***t is coming up through bubbling paint. Only on a few choice areas. But still. Small in the scope of things, big to me.
> ...


Assume you are talking about MDF - right?


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

you got it @RH . Its a case of fuzzy, somewhat water damaged painted MDF..."high end," cabinets.

I don't doubt that they paid a lot. 

Thanks @PRC for the Ready patch recommendation! Haven't tried that one out yet. I see it brought up on the forum here and there.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ready patch goes on really great, but it shrinks like a mofo. Crawfords is good. Today I even busted out some automotive Glazing putty.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

50/50 mix of Crawford's (green can) and elders wood filler is my go to. Bondo for rebuilding corners,edges,etc. Or whatever else needs something a little tougher. Then bomb can it with bin to eliminate flashing. Do it till you like it. Especially under breakthrough.. 

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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I agree with the BIN comment. I usually do two coats (white or tinted) primer because (the low voc) Breakthrough covers like ****.

From what I understand bondo doesn't penetrate as well as west systems, or am I mistaken?


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Great call @Technogod . I take it this family is terrible with water at the sink- hence this problem area. I've never used vinyl sealer or epoxy sealer- have never needed it+I likely isn't readily available.... special order thing.
This scenario does seem to call for something other than BIN because of it's poor moisture resistance. 
It is really just a few select spots that have this fuzz/raw mdf mess going on
Can it be used to spot prime? Or must I hit entire pieces with the stuff?
any risk of flashing if I were to spray a waterborne like breakthrough over it?

The particular really bad spot is one of those fixed drawers under the sink counter.
There are other worn spots just at the door handles of multiple doors.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Well I just did a set of cabinets with mdf water damage. Fortunately most of the damage was on the backs of the drawers and doors but there was a bunch of it. I sanded most of the fuzz off and hit it with several spray coats of BIN. First coat soaks in so fast you will think you missed it. Even applied some foam brush BIN until it was no longer adsorbing primer. Hand sanded and top coated with Kem Aqua + three coats. I am confident that this is twice as good as the original finish. As far as craters chips old handle holes I use Timbermate waterbased wood putty. Sands like a dream in 24 hours and shrinks less than any filler I have used. I thin it to consistency of bondo and use it like bondo. It is an excellent grain filler. On the same job I used it on rough mdf shelves that had significant water damage with cratering. After patching and a couple skim coats the shelves look better than the cabinets. You have to sand really really flat (400-600) I use block sander. My biggest problem is that these products will allow you to achieve perfection and you are actually creating a higher quality product that the original. I like Technogods idea of vinyl sealer....I think that would seal that fuzzy mdf better that 5 coats of BIN. Good luck!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Ok everyone make sure you put your coffee down and have a seat, i have a recommendation that i have had good success with in the past for "fuzzy" or soft wood.

Ready? You've been warned!

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> Ok everyone make sure you put your coffee down and have a seat, i have a recommendation that i have had good success with in the past for "fuzzy" or soft wood.
> 
> Ready? You've been warned!
> 
> http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener




A flock of frogs just flew over my house.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

You're one of the lucky ones. 
I thought he was kidding about the coffee.
When I read it, my breakfast smoothie jumped right out the other end.

I thought I was getting into paint procedure information, not sorcery.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> Ok everyone make sure you put your coffee down and have a seat, i have a recommendation that i have had good success with in the past for "fuzzy" or soft wood.
> 
> Ready? You've been warned!
> 
> http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener


Ya but it has an ugly label unlike this stuff
https://www.pcepoxy.com/products/wood-repair/pc-petrifier/


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Minwax Wood Hardener vs PC-Petrifier*

Since the PC-Petrifier is water based, I was curious to see what was on the internet regarding such and found this from 2006:

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/81543-wood-hardener/

Here are 2 posts in it from the same poster:

Speedster
Junior Member
Speedster
Members
1
4,190 posts
Report post x #17
Posted April 12, 2006
I'm doing comparison Tests on the MinWax and PC-Petrifier Hardeners, and so far the MinWax is the Winner. Both seem to penetrate the wood very well but the MinWax drys quicker, and more important 'Harder'. The Petrifier does have a dispenser nozzle on bottle and the MinWax is in a metal cap can (needed since it evaporates so quickly). They are very different formulas, MinWax is clear and the Petrifier is a milky white color. The Petrifier doesn't say what's in it but it kinda looks like thinned Elmers Glue. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I haven't tried painting the Petrifier yet, since it didn't seem completely dry yet, but I know the MinWax paints very well after sanding. I will try painting the Petrifier tomorrow.

Speedster
Junior Member
Speedster
Members
1
4,190 posts
Report post x #18
Posted April 13, 2006
Well, the PC-Petrifier Failed my Tests, Even after drying overnight it was Flacky, where it was thick on the surface. Of course it sanded okay and painted okay but don't think it drys hard enough to a good base for painting. The MinWax sands and paints well, So it or the Epoxy types are definitly the ones to use on external wood that is going to be varnished or painted. The Petrifier would be okay to use on internal wood that only needs sealing, to keep out temporary moisture, because it does that. But I doubt it would hold up to prolonged soaking like the MinWax or the Epoxy types would. So it's the Ol' saying 'You Get what you Pay For', Gotta pay more to get the Good stuff. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In my mind I would think that a solvent based hardener would be less likely to swell the fibers of MDF than a water based hardener. Any thoughts anyone?

woodyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Since the PC-Petrifier is water based, I was curious to see what was on the internet regarding such and found this from 2006:
> 
> http://forums.aaca.org/topic/81543-wood-hardener/
> 
> ...


Really? It's sad that Minwax is the "good stuff" this time.

Actually the Minwax wood hardener is similar to the SW Sherwood Homoclad sealer I've been asking about for months now. Maybe a little thicker.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> Really? It's sad that Minwax is the "good stuff" this time.
> 
> Actually the Minwax wood hardener is similar to the SW Sherwood Homoclad sealer I've been asking about for months now. Maybe a little thicker.


I am really surprised too. I picked that stuff up for _exterior use_. I hate that yellow can with the M on it so I figured anything with a fancy label it must be better. At least the PC stuff is supposed to be less nasty to work with.

I wonder if the 3M stuff is any good? the SDS has some great sounding chemicals at least.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/Bondo-Rotted-Wood-Restorer/


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Wood hardeners*

I was checking around for wood hardeners besides Minwax and PC and found this:

https://www.rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> I was checking around for wood hardeners besides Minwax and PC and found this:
> 
> https://www.rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html
> 
> futtyos


Literally every coatings manufacturer that has ever existed has a "us vs them" pretty graphic that shows their product blowing the competition out of the water.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm going to play it safe and give the minwax a try (if I win the bid). I'm not in the position to be trying all kinds of products.

Anyone out there have the cajones to try out the 3m or rot doctor product? 

For the evolution and progression of this here paint talk thread?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Literally every coatings manufacturer that has ever existed has a "us vs them" pretty graphic that shows their product blowing the competition out of the water.


Amazing isn't it! Every paint manufacturer's product is the best paint you can buy! Wow!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I would seriously just try a hard primer first, before you get into wood hardeners. Without seeing it of course, I would bet that with some hard primer, the wood nubs will sand down just fine.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

There is also this stuff and easier to find locally than the rot doctor

https://www.systemthree.com/products/rotfix-epoxy-sealer


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Minwax*



Center_line_Painting said:


> I'm going to play it safe and give the minwax a try (if I win the bid). I'm not in the position to be trying all kinds of products.
> 
> Anyone out there have the cajones to try out the 3m or rot doctor product?
> 
> For the evolution and progression of this here paint talk thread?


CLP, after reading all the suggestions for solidifying the swollen MDF, I would be inclined to go with the Minwax as well as it is solvent based and hopefully will not swell the wood up as the PC might. You are not repairing rotted wood here and the depth is very minimal. I would just make sure that you give the Minwax ample time to dry and cure in a properly heated environment before sanding it. I probably would do at least 2 coats and sand after each coat so that the water in the paint doesn't seep back into the wonderful MDF material.

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> CLP, after reading all the suggestions for solidifying the swollen MDF, I would be inclined to go with the Minwax as well as it is solvent based and hopefully will not swell the wood up as the PC might. You are not repairing rotted wood here and the depth is very minimal. I would just make sure that you give the Minwax ample time to dry and cure in a properly heated environment before sanding it. I probably would do at least 2 coats and sand after each coat so that the water in the paint doesn't seep back into the wonderful MDF material.
> 
> futtyos


Now do you really think i would have suggested a Minwax product if i wasn't 100% sure it would work?


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

No reason to fill the fuzzies unless it has made a crater. Primer, BIN in my case, sealed it and after sanding provided a good substrate for painting. I have used Timbermate a waterbased filler to fill craters and holes and end grain on mdf. No swelling of the MDF was observed. Water is the enemy of MDF but the amount of water in most water based fillers will evaporate before doing further damage. This is not a theory its a practice of mine that has worked fine over several years.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Do we have anyone with personal experience with the systems 3 product, the 3m, or rot doctor?
We had a nice thread delivered by @futtyos on the other product with poor reviews..
@Woodco what kind of "hard primer," would you recommend? I usually use the BIN, but it likely may not be appropriate right under their sink, it seems these old folks have a water splashing problem. 
my typical system for cabinets utilizes BIN and breakthrough because it minimizes dry/cure time...a huge priority for me. This is something also that the minwax product accommodates. 

It's common for folks to use MH ready patch, I've seen it on multiple threads. 
Would it stand up to the abuse around where they grab the handles? Does it dry rock hard like an epoxy, or is there a level of softness to it? on some of these areas it clearly looks worn down, not much depth..if I have to I'll use the epoxy and vinyl sealer. That sounds like a great combo I aught to utilize more often. But....there is the simplicity of a waterbased product.

I'm all for waterbased solutions, so long as they meet my customer service standards. 
@Tprice2193 It sounds like your methods have served you well thus far.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Centerline painting - I have used Bondo for filling on full length grooves routered into pine cabinet doors. It has held up good over 10 years but was the devil to sand. It was harder than the pine. The job I did in Aug 17 was in a rental house. Water damage on every lower door and the top drawers esp right under the sink. Sound familiar? I cant yet say that I made the right choices but its getting the same abuse as before and I am told it is still fine. My real test of durability will be in the cupboard. I had MDF shelves with bubbling that when completely sanded left craters of 4 to five inches in diameter and about 3/8 in deep. I repaired these and installed them repaired side up just to see if my finish will hold up. Kem Aqua + over BIN both of which dry very quickly which provides for quick turnaround. I admit I was waiting on my Timbermate to dry at times but didnt seem to hold me up since there is always something else to do. A skim coat will sand in less than 12 hours. I too am interested in these other fillers and also I have a gallon of Breakthrough 250 to test. I am hoping its vertical hang and float will be better than Kem Aqua +. I am new to forum and find the posts on here to be very helpful. It certainly reminds me that there is more than one way to do it right. Let us know how it works out.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I was thinking BIN for a hard primer, yes. Why wouldnt it work by their sinks? Its the topcoats job to keep the water out. As far as fillers, they will all work fine. In the case of ready pathc, however, you might need to apply an extra coat, as it is very shrinkprone. It applies like a dream though. Personally, I have converted to the crawfords, with a little wood filler mixed in. My last paint job, I actually skim coated really bad trim boards with it. Thats what I would do. Fill it with something that is hard enough to sand properly. 

If I were you, I would prime it with some bin in a spray can, and see how it sands. Then, mix some crawfords, and skim coat it with a 6" knife, and then sand that. Then prime and paint. I wouldnt mess with any kind of wood hardener, but I also dont know much about it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Where does it say this is an exterior?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

well, I use primer for its ability to stick, seal, and sand. Moisture blocking ability is not on my radar, except for sealing the surface for the topcoat, or if I cant topcoat for a period of time. Exterior primers are formulated for temperature changes, and penetrating wood, not because they block moisture any better. And you dont use exterior paint inside, as it may have toxic mildecides in it. Any good topcoat you put on a cabinet is going to block any water splashed on it, regardless of the primer underneath being interior or exterior. I dont understand why you're talking exterior paints and primers for an interior cabinet paint...


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Perhaps @Technogod was referencing the vinyl/epoxy sealer system he brought up.
Idk...it may be rated for both INT/EXT

No cat fights please.

I am with him on questioning the BIN though.
Isn't there a level of permeability with any waterborne top coat?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

paint a paper plate with BIN and two coats of interior waterborne cabinet paint, and you could damn near run it through a dishwasher.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

My current practice involves wet sanding kem Aqua plus pigmented. I did this on mdf primed with bin 1 heavy coat and 2 coats about 2-3 mil dry of KA +. Sanded to 600 and floated on the 3rd coat. The wet sanding after 2nd coat didn't phase the mdf and didnt soften the finish. My opinion is that this finish is better sealed and more waterproof than the polyurethane that it replaced. KA+ is KCMA approved so it is tested against water and all sorts of materials commonly found in kitchens. Also I have had no adherence problems with this schedule.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I posted into the wrong thread, how can you delete posts?


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

micro bubbling was really ticking me off this time around, but the final, 3rd coat of poly basically hid all sins the wet sanding couldn't handle.

This too is in the wrong thread and needs to be deleted


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