# Two coats or one?



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

How often do you apply 2 coats to the body of an exterior repaint?

I only do it for major color changes or if circumstances dictate.
Just curious if the majority of you guys do the same?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

on solid body stain on rough cedar (the type of house we mostly do) we always do 2...


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Usually 2 . Most home owners want to get 2 coats if they are already splurging on a paint job...


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Always do two. They are paying for it and most mfgs recommend it.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

I ditto your process, Bender. I don't do much exterior, but I don't see the need to 2 coat something if it's unecessary- especially if using Duration which I always do.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Bender, don't you know that Duration, one coater, is all a painter would ever need?LOL


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## worstpainter (Jun 6, 2009)

usually one coat of paint when sprayed, but two coats when color change, primer than paint.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

There have been plenty of time the color is close and ProVT covers in one but with flashing of caulk (not always depending how much caulking was needed) etc its all ways looks better and last longer with two and that what we quote are jobs...

we just re-did a house we did 8 yrs ago.. ProVT two coats we washed the non sunny sides and they look like new the neighbor even ask why are they painting the house it doesn't need it... I then told that person remember that and you get what you pay for...

I have quote jobs where we would just two coat the south and west sides and one the rest.. rough cedar sometimes looks fine with one coat on side that don't really see the weather and the houses are pretty close together..


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## zico (Apr 13, 2008)

The vast majority of customers demand 2 coats. However we use the C2 Paints Direct to Substrate Exterior Latex. This product will give us very high coverage on one coat, which more than satisfies the market that specs only one coat. C2's DTS product is a terrific exterior paint.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Mak, have you ever been able to do a side by side and see for sure how much longer 2 coats of stain last compared to one? A lot of my exteriors are one coat of stain (same as existing color).


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Well I'm not cheap about paint. I only use top end products and I put a lot on. Trying to cut costs on the paint end always seemed silly to me. I don't think that two coats will 'double' the life of a paint job, but also don't get me wrong, if I feel the substrate needs two coats it gets two coats.


And certainly new construction doesn't allow time or money for two coats although ironically thats when homes need it most


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

I should kind of rephrase my answer... Clearly if we are NOT changing colour I will explain that one coat will do, and will be much cheaper (probably almost half the price) and look just as good, but when colour changing I would prefer, as do most customers, to apply 2, just to cover my rear and to let them know I am usuall pretty good about knowing which colours will cover over what. Like I said though, If I tell somebody 2 coats, 2 coats it is... as far as spraying exteriors, I stay away. My insurance plan clearly states NO EXTERIOR SPRAYING so any type of overspray or lost mist could definately come back to haunt me... I am in the midst of a aluminum sided bungalow of which I am brushing the entire thing. In any case, you are the best judge of your own situations..


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## lugi (May 15, 2009)

Scrape calk and nail quick sand windows one good coat of primer then one coat of paint.....two coats of primer on real bad spots at times. Thats how my crew do it...:thumbsup:


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## smittydidit (Sep 21, 2008)

Why not try tinting your primer as close to the finish coat as possible,then full prime coat and one finish coat.Eliminates the need for two finish coats,it works for me,but use a quality finish coat.


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## lugi (May 15, 2009)

smittydidit said:


> Why not try tinting your primer as close to the finish coat as possible,then full prime coat and one finish coat.Eliminates the need for two finish coats,it works for me,but use a quality finish coat.


You got it always tint close to finish..
Quality is not expensive
— It’s Priceless! :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I heard an "expert" once explain that one coat just does not cover completely. Whether spray, brush, or roller there are just about unnoticible areas that are either very thin or actually uncoated. Spayed paint will have some miniscule "bubbles". Roller nap will cause peaks and valleys. Brush bristles also leave ridges and valleys. The second coat fills in the "gaps" and gives full protection. If you need to confirm this, prime with a white and finish paint a darker color. If you can't see the incomplete and uneven coverage, use a magnifying glass. Remember, paint is about PROTECTION, color is just decorative. 

I also was told by a rep that the thicker protection of two coats actually does provide better than twice the longevity - yes I know it was his job to sell more paint and I took what he said with a grain of salt. But think about it. A thicker coating will take longer to deteriorate. 

wje said that one coat is almost half the cost of two coats. I disagree (with all due respect). We all know that thorough prep takes longer than the application of one caot. And a second coat ALWAYS goes on quicker than the first. So, I would say the second full coat of finish would add about 20% +/- to the job. Not bad investment to make the job last more than 50% longer. In this economy, VALUE is a strong seller.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Mak, have you ever been able to do a side by side and see for sure how much longer 2 coats of stain last compared to one? A lot of my exteriors are one coat of stain (same as existing color).


I have judge it to give maybe another 2-3 yrs on top of maybe 3-4 yrs for one coat. 

There have been a few we did early in the 2000's that were one coats with Moorwood prior to us switching to ProVT and they were needing at 4 yrs... 

We have been calling clients at yr 6 and walking over the home with them some go for a sell at 6 most wait till 7 and then you get the ones who think it will last for ever..


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Bender said:


> And certainly new construction doesn't allow time or money for two coats although ironically thats when homes need it most



we have done many homes at yr 4 when they were done at NC stage and it look terrible at yr 4 and most people freaked that there house needed to be coated all ready...


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> wje said that one coat is almost half the cost of two coats. I disagree (with all due respect). We all know that thorough prep takes longer than the application of one caot. And a second coat ALWAYS goes on quicker than the first. So, I would say the second full coat of finish would add about 20% +/- to the job. Not bad investment to make the job last more than 50% longer. In this economy, VALUE is a strong seller.


:thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> I have judge it to give maybe another 2-3 yrs on top of maybe 3-4 yrs for one coat.
> 
> There have been a few we did early in the 2000's that were one coats with Moorwood prior to us switching to ProVT and they were needing at 4 yrs...
> 
> We have been calling clients at yr 6 and walking over the home with them some go for a sell at 6 most wait till 7 and then you get the ones who think it will last for ever..


Absolutely !

Two coats of stain will give 5 years protection.

We did one primer and two finish of BM flat gray on a 290 year old home in 1978. It lasted 8+ years. Yes, the prep was THOROUGH.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

daArch said:


> I heard an "expert" once explain that one coat just does not cover completely. Whether spray, brush, or roller there are just about unnoticible areas that are either very thin or actually uncoated. Spayed paint will have some miniscule "bubbles". Roller nap will cause peaks and valleys. Brush bristles also leave ridges and valleys. The second coat fills in the "gaps" and gives full protection. If you need to confirm this, prime with a white and finish paint a darker color. If you can't see the incomplete and uneven coverage, use a magnifying glass. Remember, paint is about PROTECTION, color is just decorative.
> 
> I also was told by a rep that the thicker protection of two coats actually does provide better than twice the longevity - yes I know it was his job to sell more paint and I took what he said with a grain of salt. But think about it. A thicker coating will take longer to deteriorate.
> 
> wje said that one coat is almost half the cost of two coats. I disagree (with all due respect). We all know that thorough prep takes longer than the application of one caot. And a second coat ALWAYS goes on quicker than the first. So, I would say the second full coat of finish would add about 20% +/- to the job. Not bad investment to make the job last more than 50% longer. In this economy, VALUE is a strong seller.


I should have explained this is for purely the paint. For me prep is job to job. We have encoured pure paint jobs with a quick pressure wash with minor sanding, to the older victorian style with window glazing, and the whole 9 yards. The job I am doing right now required only 6 hours prep for an 80 hour job... it is all aluminum siding....... So yea almost twice as much for two coats... like I said.. Painting is a case by case trade. ANYWAYS.... the amount of coats should still be determined before the contract, not after to profit 100% of free profit.


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## jordanski (Feb 5, 2009)

daArch said:


> I heard an "expert" once explain that one coat just does not cover completely. Whether spray, brush, or roller there are just about unnoticible areas that are either very thin or actually uncoated. Spayed paint will have some miniscule "bubbles". Roller nap will cause peaks and valleys. Brush bristles also leave ridges and valleys. The second coat fills in the "gaps" and gives full protection. If you need to confirm this, prime with a white and finish paint a darker color. If you can't see the incomplete and uneven coverage, use a magnifying glass. Remember, paint is about PROTECTION, color is just decorative.
> 
> I also was told by a rep that the thicker protection of two coats actually does provide better than twice the longevity - yes I know it was his job to sell more paint and I took what he said with a grain of salt. But think about it. A thicker coating will take longer to deteriorate.
> 
> wje said that one coat is almost half the cost of two coats. I disagree (with all due respect). We all know that thorough prep takes longer than the application of one caot. And a second coat ALWAYS goes on quicker than the first. So, I would say the second full coat of finish would add about 20% +/- to the job. Not bad investment to make the job last more than 50% longer. In this economy, VALUE is a strong seller.


daARCH is the one on here talking sense, one coat is madness!

one coat tinted primer and one coat latex is shoddy work... why on earth are we trying to reverse engineer thousands of years of experience to the contrary? a paintjob is two coats, primer and paint are two different materials with different purposes, how long do you think you would survive with 98% of your skin intact? streaks and pinholes... super thin coverage... that Duration stuff could be the exception... I still wouldn't do it or sell it to a client as representative of a craftsman's work. a paintjob is not the appearance of color, it is the protective skin of the house...

two coats backbrushed randomizes the coverage and gets into all the little cracks and anomalies in the surface, remember paint is not a filler and likes to "jump" anything it's not pushed into when drying.

take a rattle can of black spray paint and hit something white with it, tell me that's a paintjob.... that's your typical one coat w/ no backbrush new construction garbage sprayed on in a weekend by a bunch of illegals, god that crap is popping up everywhere in seattle... they built a row of townhomes next to a giant restoration and paint job I spent two years working on, sprayed it one coat last august, already looks like parboiled dog ****, I love it!!! the sheen looks like a freshly vacuumed shag carpet, inconsistent color, cupping shingles, all ****ed up, thanks for making me look good boys, I'm so tired of people doing this kind of "work" calling themselves painters.... nothing personal, that's how I feel...

no disrespect, there are some crazy specialty paints out there I'm sure I'm unaware of... in this region anyone sayin' one coat is professional is bad for the industry, giving junk science to homeowners that they will spread to their friends at BBQs, and bad for expensive clear cedar siding... my two cents

now if I'm painting a house in arizona the same color 5 years after a solid paintjob I might buy the arguement... 

jordan

there's not much point in reading the rest of this thread, daARCH nailed it...


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## br80tuck (Jun 8, 2009)

*2 coats*

I only use 2 coats for an exterior paint job when there is a significant color change..


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

br80tuck said:


> I only use 2 coats for an exterior paint job when there is a significant color change..



May I ask why you give two for a signif color change and not one for no color change ?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

wje said:


> I should have explained this is for purely the paint. For me prep is job to job. We have encoured pure paint jobs with a quick pressure wash with minor sanding, to the older victorian style with window glazing, and the whole 9 yards. The job I am doing right now required only 6 hours prep for an 80 hour job... it is all aluminum siding....... So yea almost twice as much for two coats... like I said.. Painting is a case by case trade. ANYWAYS.... the amount of coats should still be determined before the contract, not after to profit 100% of free profit.


wje, I do understand what you are saying. It is a case by case trade. (can you imagine estimates if not. You could give one over the phone on the first call :thumbup


With only a quick wash and a light sand (assuming no caulking, no hardware removal, no window blind removal, and no window repairs) prep is not as high as a percentage of the job than when you spend time on all those little extras. 

But have you noticed that the second coat goes on a lot quicker than the first? Well, maybe not for spray, but I can't speak about that as I only used a sprayer two or three times when they were not as refined as they are now-a-days


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

There are paints out there that claim 'one coat' but they are aimed at the DIYer H/O market. Those cans also have small print that says something like 'one coat on previously painted surfaces' and 'may need two coats on contrasting colours'. That stuff isn't intended for professional use and likely wouldn't give you any warranty if you went to them with a major problem.

As daArch says, two coats is the industry *minimum* standard. I doubt whether any paint manufacturer would hold up on their warranty if you'd only gave it one coat. Most manufacturers also have a recommended thickness for each coat (measured in microns). If your paint/stain doesn't meet that spec then they can get out of warranty that way too.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Bender said:


> How often do you apply 2 coats to the body of an exterior repaint?
> 
> I only do it for major color changes or if circumstances dictate.
> Just curious if the majority of you guys do the same?


Two on pretty much any color change or anything other than a "maintenance coat" of the same color applied before any decent prep or prime etc. is needed

So...how often?
The majority of my customers do not re-paint before the previous coating has started to fail…and they need a fair amount of prep (at least)
Add to that the color change people...
So mostly two coats on the body for me


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> There are paints out there that claim 'one coat' but they are aimed at the DIYer H/O market. Those cans also have small print that says something like 'one coat on previously painted surfaces' and 'may need two coats on contrasting colours'. That stuff isn't intended for professional use and likely wouldn't give you any warranty if you went to them with a major problem.
> 
> As daArch says, two coats is the industry *minimum* standard. I doubt whether any paint manufacturer would hold up on their warranty if you'd only gave it one coat. Most manufacturers also have a recommended thickness for each coat (measured in microns). If your paint/stain doesn't meet that spec then they can get out of warranty that way too.


Aura is the only ext. paint I know w/o “that clause” about the mil thickness for warranty purposes (though Duration works well and is thick, last I looked they still had the “but” clause in their warranty)
In reality, regardless of technical warranty stuff, for color changes Aura still seems to need two coats (for color if not warranty)

Close enough colors but maint. coat w/Aura…< shrugs > …eh…haven’t had enough of those where Aura is spec’d (So far most of those jobs have been same color or decent color change so one or two respectively)


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## DavidNTexas (May 26, 2009)

Something to keep in mind when deciding the number of coats.

A HO just bought a new home and as it should be had a primer and 2 coats. At 10 years the paintjob was still holding up but faded some so the HO decided to repaint. The last time it was painted it had 1 primer and 2 coats and lasted good so they do this same thing again. 5 years later the lady decides she wants to change the color and 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of finished always worked well in the past so there they go again, sparing no expense.

Now we have 15 coats of paints and primers on this house and it is all being held on by the first coat of primer. It isn't hard to imagine how many coats of paint are on some 40 and 50 year old homes. There are sure to be some areas that still hold the original primer. These primers were not intended to hold the weight of that many coats of paint. This is the main cause of a paint buildup problem and one of the main causes of paint failure on wood is a paint buildup problem.

If there are several coats of paint on the surface and the color isn't changing greatly, the fewer coats the better. On older homes paint failure begins at the wood, not from the elements on the exterior. If 1 coat covers good on an older home that is how I would paint it. This is something that the homeowner understand as well.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

David. The paint build up that you refer to would rarely happen. Paint eventually goes brittle and peels off with the movement of the wood. The original paint would likely have started to fail before it got to 20 or so coats and been stripped/pressure washed and the bare timber reprimed if it has been done correctly. This is why older properties tend to have so much flaking paint - The underlying layers have passed their sell-by date and needs stripping back and starting again.

The correct way to treat badly failing areas with a large build up of layers of paint is to take off the paint in the whole section of the failing area, re-prime and re-paint. We've all seen jobs where painters have left sections of thick layers of old paint on areas that have been half stripped and looks like a jigsaw puzzle gone wrong.

One coat is just soooo wrong.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

We mostly do rough cedar sided houses and after 7 yrs or so there ain't no where near 2 layers of paint or solid stain on it!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

MAK said:


> We mostly do rough cedar sided houses and after 7 yrs or so there ain't no where near 2 layers of paint or solid stain on it!


Stains are made to deteriorate. 7 years out of a stain is great Mak! 


Sooo.... to add a twist... if you know the house is to be sold in the next 2 or 3 years do you feel the same way about 2 coats? 
Are you painting the house to preserve it as long as possible? or to make the owner happy?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have done one coat over same existing color of solid color stain as a maintenance coat every 5 years or so. For major color changes or homes that require a lot of prepwork and priming, then it is 2 coats.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

David,
In agreement with tooled allow me to add a bit.

The weight of the paint has never appeared to me to be what is pulling off the original coatings, ie, the weight is not the cause of paint failure. It is, as Pete said, the age of the paint. The original coating has failed due to the passage of time.

I often wondered if we should be sanding/scraping more to remove as much old coatings as possible. This would remove the problem as you state it (excess weight) and the problem as we see it (old deteriorated paint)

Now go sell THAT to your customers :whistling2:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Bender said:


> Stains are made to deteriorate. 7 years out of a stain is great Mak!
> 
> 
> Sooo.... to add a twist... if you know the house is to be sold in the next 2 or 3 years do you feel the same way about 2 coats?
> Are you painting the house to preserve it as long as possible? or to make the owner happy?


If a owner was selling and ask for one coat and it was written that way with no warranty then yes I would bid a job that way. But as Arch said its the setup, prep and one coat that takes the most time the second coat is the easiest to do and not that much more to the price.


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## DavidNTexas (May 26, 2009)

The weight definately will add to it. It is movement and age of the coating that causes tha paint to pop. The problems come from the wood side. Once there are multiple layers of paint then 1 more coat is not going to add any significant life to the paintjob, it is the movement under so many layers of paint that causes the popping.

We always scrape every bit of loose paint we can from the substrate followed by a good sanding paying particular attention to places where there is raw wood and feathering those areas. Once the prep is done then any raw wood spot primed. I am in no way saying that 1 coat of paint should be applied to raw wood. Many times the spot primer is followed by a spot coat of finish followed by a full coat. This will normally get about 5-8 years on an old house with a paint buildup problem. By that time some of the older paint that wasn't loose before will have started popping.

If there is more than about 25% - 35% failure rate then the entire structure should get the additional coat after priming.

If there are multiple layers of paint on wood siding and 1 coat covers, an additional coat won't help. It is movement under those multiple layers that causes the failure. The weight of multiple coats of paint adds to this problem significantly.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

DavidNTexas said:


> Something to keep in mind when deciding the number of coats.
> 
> A HO just bought a new home and as it should be had a primer and 2 coats. At 10 years the paintjob was still holding up but faded some so the HO decided to repaint. The last time it was painted it had 1 primer and 2 coats and lasted good so they do this same thing again. 5 years later the lady decides she wants to change the color and 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of finished always worked well in the past so there they go again, sparing no expense.
> .


I see 9 coats there, not 15.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Two coats of Aura of this colour, 
but only one for the cutting in of the high difficult areas.
Great paint!


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

that's a hell of a color, I see why you chose Aura :thumbsup:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Certain things you need to do once only.
I can't say enough about the Aura Exterior. 
If we tried to, one coat would have been ok everywhere,
but we specified two.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

George: Is it the angle we are looking at, or are those ladders way out there?Hope there's no grease on the ground.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> George: Is it the angle we are looking at, or are those ladders way out there?Hope there's no grease on the ground.


that was the first thing that caught my eye ....... well, maybe the second thing.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> George: Is it the angle we are looking at, or are those ladders way out there?Hope there's no grease on the ground.


 
It is getting moved

or the angles

They are straight


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## DavidNTexas (May 26, 2009)

tsunamicontract said:


> I see 9 coats there, not 15.


I meant 9 coats. Apparently I was counting the years by mistake. You still see what I am talking about how multiple coats can build up more than is realized. Nine coats is still alot of paint.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

George Z said:


> It is getting moved
> 
> or the angles
> 
> They are straight


I can't speak for John, but I was not seeing "unstraight" but I thought the angle was a little shallow. Just want to make sure there's no chance of the bottom slipping out and someone riding the ladder to the sidewalk.

this one especially looked a tad shallow:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Come on Arch.. they are doing an attorney's place.. can you imagine the lawsuit on that one?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> I can't speak for John, but I was not seeing "unstraight" but I thought the angle was a little shallow. Just want to make sure there's no chance of the bottom slipping out and someone riding the ladder to the sidewalk.
> 
> this one especially looked a tad shallow:
> 
> View attachment 3105


The ladder is tied and the painter weighs about 100 lbs.
I was commenting about the one or two coat thing.
But thanks for the safety concerns.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

100 pounds Canadian...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

George Z said:


> The ladder is tied and the painter weighs about 100 lbs.
> I was commenting about the one or two coat thing.
> But thanks for the safety concerns.


I know me and John hijacked the thread, but you know how old painters are ..... always on the lookout and ready with some "helpful" observations :whistling2:


Bender, are pounds Canadian that like the Imperial Gallon , eh?


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