# French Doors!



## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

Yeah an old topic...I'm never too old to learn a new technique...The homeowner surprised me with a raw french door..(it was supposed to be primed)

OK,fine just one door...But it will be white so we are talking one oil prime,and 2-3 finish coats of acrylic semi....

It is an occupied house so spraying onsite is out of the question....Those damn things are just so tedious to do...I could take it to my house or garage and spray it,but the setup to spray one lousy door is a pain..Oil primer then latex..You get the picture...I usually tape those french doors...That takes time...Should I just bite the bullett and hand paint it onsite for 4 gruelling hours?

What say you?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Just brush it out. Not really worth it to haul it out to your shop for one set of doors. You will have just as much time in transport and shop set up as brushing it.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I agree with Dean.
But I bet it takes you closer to 8 hours.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Usually they come with plastic over the glass, which is nice since it can be sliced off with a razor after painting. Saves time over masking or cutting in.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Just brush it out. Not really worth it to haul it out to your shop for one set of doors. You will have just as much time in transport and shop set up as brushing it.


 
I hate the look of hand painted french doors...The brush strokes look terrible on the thin parts next to the glass...Recently I've tried taping off the rest of the door so I can concentrate on just the lattice...Paint tends to dry up and going over it screws up the finish..Maybe i'll use more floetrol...

There I said it,I'm lousy at painting french doors by hand!....That is my achilles heel!!


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Yeah, it wont take that long to brush it out. Thin your paint so it goes on real fast, put a fan on it for 15 mins come back and do another coat, and your done.You can also take them off their tracks to outside/garage.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Yeah, it wont take that long to brush it out. Thin your paint so it goes on real fast, put a fan on it for 15 mins come back and do another coat, and your done.You can also take them off their tracks to outside/garage.


I'm thinking about putting 2 6" screws on one end and one 6" screw on the bottom so I can flip it on a saw horse..That is how I normally spray them.....


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Just brush it out. Not really worth it to haul it out to your shop for one set of doors. You will have just as much time in transport and shop set up as brushing it.





DeanV said:


> Usually they come with plastic over the glass, which is nice since it can be sliced off with a razor after painting. Saves time over masking or cutting in.


I agree with Dean all the way. Get back to the basics and brush the dang thing.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I agree with Dean all the way. Get back to the basics and brush the dang thing.


On it's hinge or take it off and put it on a saw horse?..Damn I hate painting those doors!!!


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Yeah, it wont take that long to brush it out. Thin your paint so it goes on real fast, put a fan on it for 15 mins come back and do another coat, and your done.You can also take them off their tracks to outside/garage.


In all these years of painting I've never used a fan...Ya,not on topic,just a thought....I've seen guys bring in their turbo fans....Maybe it might be a good tool to work with...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Time to get back to basics, brush it. IMO


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

tedrin said:


> On it's hinge or take it off and put it on a saw horse?..Damn I hate painting those doors!!!


Brush it on its hinge that way you do not have to make a second trip to hang.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Quickest way to sharpen your painting skills is master a french door. I was doing a lot at one point and it really helps keep your cutting skills sharp, especially oin the doors which have had the plastic removed on repaints.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

wje said:


> Quickest way to sharpen your painting skills is master a french door. I was doing a lot at one point and it really helps keep your cutting skills sharp, especially oin the doors which have had the plastic removed on repaints.


 
My cutting skills are pretty decent,,but it's just going over the previously painted work that screws it up for me....Someone suggested thinning the paint to get a longer working time..I've always used just Floetrol...Besides with a good razor blade,all is good!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

with 4 coats i would tape or paint and scrape probably . . .


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Tendrin,

with all due respect, learn how to brush muntins.

I had a partner or a worker who claimed it was quicker to brush the muntins quickly and then razor the slop off. Can you spell W-R-O-N-G ?

I did an wallpaper estimate a few years ago, one of my painting buddies had his crew there. There was a young lady perched on the radiator cover on the stair landing razoring a window with MANY lites. 

It was a complicated measuring job that took me two hours, plus the hour gab time. She was there the WHOLE THREE HOURS. That just can't be efficient. 

It would behoove you to buy the correct bush and learn how to apply paint to muntins. 

This is not meant to be a put down or a chastisement, but just sage words.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Really Bill? (it also sounds like you are more after me on that one than tendrin) I just did a door yeserday and though about cutting it, decided that scraping would be faster. it was.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> Tendrin,
> 
> with all due respect, learn how to brush muntins.
> 
> ...


That's a new word for me..Muntins....Yes, a 1 1/2 inch brush is better for what I call the 'lattice work" of the door...Thanks


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> Really Bill? (it also sounds like you are more after me on that one than tendrin) I just did a door yeserday and though about cutting it, decided that scraping would be faster. it was.


Sorry to nitpick..name is Tedrin or Ted...


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Sorry Tedrin!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tedrin said:


> Sorry to nitpick..name is Tedrin or Ted...



OOOOPS, sorry, TED !

(Hey, I'm old deaf and blind, but what's an 'n' or two amongst friends :whistling2: )


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> Really Bill? (it also sounds like you are more after me on that one than tendrin) I just did a door yeserday and though about cutting it, decided that scraping would be faster. it was.


I'll race you, for a beer :thumbup:


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> Sorry Tedrin!


No problem


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tedrin said:


> That's a new word for me..Muntins....Yes, a 1 1/2 inch brush is better for what I call the 'lattice work" of the door...Thanks


*Muntin*:_ a strip separating panes of glass in a sash_

*Mullion*:_a slender vertical member that forms a division between units of a window, door, or screen or is used decoratively_

And all the other names of window parts. One part most people get wrong is the sill, which is actually the stool.

The picture below, IMO, mis-names the meeting rail as the top-rail (in the bottom sash) and the bottom-rail (in the top sash)


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I am guilty of calling the stool a sill.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I am guilty of calling the stool a sill.


Obviously there is more than one word for it...A sill is still a sill..


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I've had customers look at me like I'm from another planet when I give them a price for new 15 pane doors. I explain to them that each pane of glass has 4 cuts on it. Times that by 15 is 60 cuts each side, which is 120 cuts. Times that again by 3 coats and they are looking at 360 cuts just for one door. That isn't including all of the intricate sanding around each pane of glass. They soon realize how much work is there.


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I'm with Arch here. The correct way to paint muntins is to brush it out. Razor off later is not cool in my book. On new french doors with the plastic I'd paint by brush and cut plastic off if already installed and only a couple. I have some to do Tuesday.


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## racin16car (Feb 27, 2009)

be sure to scrape with a plastic razor blade.....had an employee scrape on entry door glass with a metal blade.....ended up replacing all the glass for a measily $800.....lesson learned


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

racin16car said:


> be sure to scrape with a plastic razor blade.....had an employee scrape on entry door glass with a metal blade.....ended up replacing all the glass for a measily $800.....lesson learned



good point. a carelessly handled blade can scratch some of the new glass, I think it's softer. When I did the major remodel of my first floor, I installed a double Marvin Integrity window. At some time I decided to wash one pane with a teflon pad, it scratched the f-ing glass. Sure glad it was MY house I did that on.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tedrin said:


> Obviously there is more than one word for it...A sill is still a sill..


Ted, I disagree. Many of us have been put in a position to need to replace elements of windows, doors, trim, etc. We need to know the correct term when ordering, replacing, or fabricating. Whatever profession one is in, it behooves that professional to know the correct names of what he uses and works on. 

Here's another one for all you.

Between the side jambs of a door, there is a piece of (usually) wood:










many call it a threshold.

Who knows the CORRECT name ?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

daArch said:


> Here's another one for all you.
> 
> Between the side jambs of a door, there is a piece of (usually) wood:
> 
> ...


If it's the bit on the floor then we call it the door 'bar' but I often call it a threshold. The way you're describing it then you might be talking about the upright bit that the door goes to. We call it that stop. 

Maybe you call it something different or I'm just naming it what I've always heard it called.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

racin16car said:


> be sure to scrape with a plastic razor blade.....had an employee scrape on entry door glass with a metal blade.....ended up replacing all the glass for a measily $800.....lesson learned


And a wonderful one to me. You just saved me 800 bucks.
:thumbsup:


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## Hanger in VT (Aug 5, 2008)

daArch said:


> Ted, I disagree. Many of us have been put in a position to need to replace elements of windows, doors, trim, etc. We need to know the correct term when ordering, replacing, or fabricating. Whatever profession one is in, it behooves that professional to know the correct names of what he uses and works on.
> 
> Here's another one for all you.
> 
> ...


 
A carpenter friend of mine always referred to this as a saddle. Muntin is new to me. I thought they were mullions.


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## LOSTinDETAILS (Jun 17, 2009)

daArch said:


> Ted, I disagree. Many of us have been put in a position to need to replace elements of windows, doors, trim, etc. We need to know the correct term when ordering, replacing, or fabricating. Whatever profession one is in, it behooves that professional to know the correct names of what he uses and works on.
> 
> Here's another one for all you.
> 
> ...


Is it a transom?


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> Ted, I disagree. Many of us have been put in a position to need to replace elements of windows, doors, trim, etc. We need to know the correct term when ordering, replacing, or fabricating. Whatever profession one is in, it behooves that professional to know the correct names of what he uses and works on.
> 
> Here's another one for all you.
> 
> ...


Funny you should ask that!...My current client talked to me about painting that very thing as he had to replace it with new material......I couldn't come up with a name...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Hanger in VT said:


> A carpenter friend of mine always referred to this as a *saddle.* Muntin is new to me. I thought they were mullions.


BINGO !! 

SADDLE! 

Gold star to you, Hanger in Vt !

BTW, it took a HO to inform me of the name when I was my 30's


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Well Bill, aren't you just a wealth of knowledge. Do you have an anatomy of a door pic you can insert? The sill is the outside part of the window, basically stool but outside, but I did not know the inside part was the stool. What piece of a door is that? I was not sure from your description?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> Well Bill, aren't you just a wealth of knowledge. Do you have an anatomy of a door pic you can insert? The sill is the outside part of the window, basically stool but outside, but I did not know the inside part was the stool. What piece of a door is that? I was not sure from your description?


Tsunami,

Yah, one does pick up quasi-knowledge in six decades :thumbup:

I am not quite sure which door opening element you are inquiring about. But I am fairly confident the info is on the internet if you can plug the right words into a google search.


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## mistcoat (Apr 21, 2007)

Here's my sash window daArch... I pulled it from here http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/caring-for-your-sash-case.pdf - TU will be proud of me :yes:
We call it a Glazing bar as opposed to a Muntin.
As you can see it is even called an Astragal... Never heard it called that, doh!

I think generations over generations change component names as they see fit. I think it even goes down to what area you live in. 
Basically it all stays much the same tho, which is ok. :thumbsup:


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

mistcoat said:


> As you can see it is even called an Astragal... Never heard it called that, doh!



My dad used to call them that. He was the only guy I ever heard use that word.


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## mistcoat (Apr 21, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> My dad used to call them that. He was the only guy I ever heard use that word.


He's 1 in a million :thumbsup: :thumbup: :thumbsup:


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## Uncle Caulky (Jun 20, 2009)

I always prefer to brush it all out without tape/ scraping. Done it both ways and slower brushing works better for me. Scraping can be such a pain. BC it's usually scrape, then wipe, then vacuum...

DaArch, where did your window pic come from. It looks like it could be from a book I have..think its called Remodeling Old Houses. It's a great read!


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## Uncle Caulky (Jun 20, 2009)

Oh and keep the terminology coming :thumbup:


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## Uncle Caulky (Jun 20, 2009)

oops


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Now you know where Santa threw up on the sash.


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> *Muntin*:_ a strip separating panes of glass in a sash_
> 
> *Mullion*:_a slender vertical member that forms a division between units of a window, door, or screen or is used decoratively_
> 
> ...


 
Here's another diagram....They call it a sill at the bottom...The Muntin is also called the grilles,grid or Windowpane divider.

http://web.pella.com/learnthebasics/glossary/Pages/Glossary.aspx


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## graybear13 (Feb 28, 2009)

French doors = WORK !! I brush them and scrape when I get out of the lines . The longer paint stays on glass , the harder it is to get off . Brush that one and bill accordingly .


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tedrin said:


> Here's another diagram....They call it a sill at the bottom...The Muntin is also called the grilles,grid or Windowpane divider.
> 
> http://web.pella.com/learnthebasics/glossary/Pages/Glossary.aspx


Ted,

that Pella page defines a sill as, "The main horizontal part forming the bottom of the frame of a window or door." 

IMO, the key words there are "main", "horizontal", "bottom", & "frame" . No where is the term "trim" used. I know this may sound a bit nick picky, BUT having worked as a carpenter before I got into painting, I realize there is a difference between "framing" and "trimming"

If you have ever built a house, you would understand that the sill is a main part of the FRAME of a window and the STOOL and APRON are just trim pieces. 

OR, if you have ever had the "opportunity" to replace a sill, you would realize it's a lot different than replacing the stool. 

Yah, I have a wee bit of useless knowleged rattling around in the brain pan. But I came by it honestly. I framed and roofed houses as a kid, I studied architecture and drew elements of houses in my early 20's, I've repaired and replaced all sorts of pieces of houses, and I just have a thirst for odd house knowledge. 

I love that I now have a new term in my head, _Astragal_. I can't wait to use it !!! :thumbup:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

daArch said:


> I love that I now have a new term in my head, _Astragal_. I can't wait to use it !!! :thumbup:


"After a long, hard day of painting, I like to go for a ride with Astragal on her spaceship"
Like that?


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## tedrin (Oct 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> Ted,
> 
> that Pella page defines a sill as, "The main horizontal part forming the bottom of the frame of a window or door."
> 
> ...


I'm sure you're right....I don't know a thing about carpentry...I've always thought that I placed my morning coffee on the window sill..I stand corrected....You also have a few more names for the muntin...


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## paintwise1 (Aug 2, 2009)

*French doors*

Jasco make a liquid maskng paper It seal and primers all in one. you spray it on then it peels off only the glass when your finish. i use this anytime i do wood pain windows,


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## summertime14 (May 4, 2009)

Just brush the stinking grid. Thats what I usually call it. No way it takes eight hours for a single door as suggested! I don't like to have to go back and scrape off paint later, that just seems counter productive. What if that is the last thing you paint? Then you would have to come back later after everything is dry and scrape the paint, then clean up all the scrapings. Sometimes shortcuts are not shortcuts but headaches!


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

The jasco is great, for new glass. If the door is 80 years old you don't want to use the easy mask.


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## Old Dog (Nov 5, 2008)

*Love them french doors*



tedrin said:


> Yeah an old topic...I'm never too old to learn a new technique...The homeowner surprised me with a raw french door..(it was supposed to be primed)
> 
> OK,fine just one door...But it will be white so we are talking one oil prime,and 2-3 finish coats of acrylic semi....
> 
> ...


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