# Command corotech



## Glenn-1 (Apr 4, 2021)

I’m really looking forward to trying this Product. My Benjamin Moore store in B.C. Canada says this product coming in spring/ summer this year to Canada. Is this product a lot faster drying than advance? I’m wanting to use it on all trim and doors in new builds. For people that have used this in the USA can you chime in on things you have noticed. Is it a much better product than Advance for doors and trim?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

What's the cost in Canadian bucks? Anyone know yet?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> What's the cost in Canadian bucks? Anyone know yet?


I have it for roughly $55 USD. Command not affected by the incoming price increase.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Glenn-1 said:


> I’m really looking forward to trying this Product. My Benjamin Moore store in B.C. Canada says this product coming in spring/ summer this year to Canada. Is this product a lot faster drying than advance? I’m wanting to use it on all trim and doors in new builds. For people that have used this in the USA can you chime in on things you have noticed. Is it a much better product than Advance for doors and trim?


It's great for spraying but not so much if you'll have brushwork to do. The satin is on the low side of what most people expect a satin to look like. Probably 15-18 degree sheen. It's easier to spray than Break Through, I like a 410 FF tip. Has better open time when spraying so you don't get the flashing when overlapping your pattern. Seems to have a lot better sag resistance. It doesn't really show up in light colors but on darker colors you might need to sand in-between coats. I've gotten some small pinholeing when applying the 2nd coat but it stopped when I sanded after the first coat. It's around $60 a gallon here. To me it's a better Residential Repaint product or industrial as opposed to new home but that's just my opinion.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm pretty sure everything is faster drying than Advance. Command is dry to the touch in 15 mins. Re-coat in 2 hrs. Being a Urethane, I believe it's just a little fussier than other paints. So watch out for fish-eyes. Drys hard and sticks like crazy.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Would this work good in a closet on shelves. I am always nervous about water based products on shelves but I want to get away from oils. I have access to this and breakthrough. Trying to decide which is better to use.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> Would this work good in a closet on shelves. I am always nervous about water based products on shelves but I want to get away from oils. I have access to this and breakthrough. Trying to decide which is better to use.


Absolutely. Both would be fine.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

I can't get Command in RI because it hasn't been approved yet, but I am dying to try it. We just did a laundry room with a bunch of built-in cabinets/cubbies with the V50 Breakthrough because it can be put into service with excellent block resistance so quickly. Fork lift traffic in 24 hours. I haven't tested it with a forklift, but I can say it is super hard, super fast and nothing sticks to it. Command is supposed to be the same way. Breakthrough is not exactly easy to work with though.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

jacob33 said:


> Would this work good in a closet on shelves. I am always nervous about water based products on shelves but I want to get away from oils. I have access to this and breakthrough. Trying to decide which is better to use.


You could also use ScuffX.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I just brushed out samples of Command, Advance and Break-Through! (all white; all semi-gloss) over 1-2-3, sanded.

I will be testing the surface hardness after one week's cure (Friday or Saturday of this week). There was no doubt that the Break-Through! has been curing the fastest. Subjectively it feels the hardest at this point.

One of the standardized ways of testing surface hardness of finishes is with the "pencil test". Using calibrated hardness pencils ranging from HB (softest) and 9H (hardest) a scratch test is done to see at what point the finish has plastic damage (indents in the finish) and at what point there is a loss of surface integrity (scratches through the entire finish).

The calibrated pencils are sold in sets with a special pencil sharpener and a device to apply uniform pressure on the finish. The official term for this test is the "Wolff-Wilborn test". 

The calibrated sets cost between $250.00 and $600.00. I was not prepared to spend that much money.

Instead I have ordered (and due to be delivered today) an artists set with an even larger array of pencils for $9.00. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073B5G1JW?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_title

While these are not calibrated, it will give me a relative comparison of the different finishes. I will test these on Friday or Saturday depending upon how busy I am. I will also test on a piece of red oak that has received three coats of 1-2-3 and three coats of Advance over three days. That sample is going to have 10 days of cure after the final finish. It has fully filled the grain (the goal with this test), and with all that thickness of coating I am wondering what that will do to the testing.

I will note the results when I have them. 

There are several informative videos on the Wolff-Wilborn test. Here is one: Pencil Hardness Testing

Obviously my test will be less precise. But I think it will answer some of my questions.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Packard said:


> I just brushed out samples of Command, Advance and Break-Through! (all white; all semi-gloss) over 1-2-3, sanded.
> 
> I will be testing the surface hardness after one week's cure (Friday or Saturday of this week). There was no doubt that the Break-Through! has been curing the fastest. Subjectively it feels the hardest at this point.
> 
> ...


Command doesn't come in a semi-gloss but I'm interested in hearing the results.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

monarchski said:


> Command doesn't come in a semi-gloss but I'm interested in hearing the results.


That was an error on my part. * All the finishes are in satin*. Both the Command and the Advance are in the same exact color and the sheen looks very similar to me. 

The Break-Through! is also in satin, but has less gloss and I much prefer the Command and Advance appearance. I was satisfied with the Break-Through! until the local dealer went out of business. That is when I switched to Advance. While I like the way Advance sprays out and levels, I am less happy with the cure times. The appearance of the satin looks better to me than the Break-Through!. The cure time is what motivated me to try the Command. I have one gallon of Advance and one gallon of Command. I will decide which to use after the test results are in.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> That was an error on my part. * All the finishes are in satin*. Both the Command and the Advance are in the same exact color and the sheen looks very similar to me.
> 
> The Break-Through! is also in satin, but has less gloss and I much prefer the Command and Advance appearance. I was satisfied with the Break-Through! until the local dealer went out of business. That is when I switched to Advance. While I like the way Advance sprays out and levels, I am less happy with the cure times. The appearance of the satin looks better to me than the Break-Through!. The cure time is what motivated me to try the Command. I have one gallon of Advance and one gallon of Command. I will decide which to use after the test results are in.


I might suggest trying some cabinetcoat while your doing your testing. Maybe also do a sprayed sample testing.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I will try a spray sample too. But this is a reface and I am making new doors and end panels brush painting over the red oak face frames. So I wanted to see what the face frames would look like. 

I will show the customer different options on the face frame finish, but since I am making the new doors, they will be sized to mostly cover the face frame. I can do this because we are replacing the conventional hinges with soft close hinges and I can now opt for a larger overlay on the hinge side. I can add 3/4" on both edges. I will have to make sure I have enough room for that, but ideally, to look more like a contemporary job most of the face frame will be covered by the doors.

In any event, that is why I used a brush for the test samples.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

When brushing and rolling, general properties, leveling and coverage should also be of concern. This is what I like about Advance, (besides coverage)although I doubt it will win a hardness test after 1 week. After a month maybe..


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I've been spraying Advance for a while now and I've been happy with it. (Not so much on the emerald green (dark green) which took a month to get acceptably hard and now seems OK. 

I would note that oil based poly is widely quoted as having a full cure after 200 hours (about 7 days), but I can attest that oil based poly that I applied 20 years ago is much, much harder than one week old poly, and is probably harder than one month old poly. I think the cure is an ongoing process that lasts quite a while.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Packard said:


> I will try a spray sample too. But this is a reface and I am making new doors and end panels brush painting over the red oak face frames. So I wanted to see what the face frames would look like.
> 
> I will show the customer different options on the face frame finish, but since I am making the new doors, they will be sized to mostly cover the face frame. I can do this because we are replacing the conventional hinges with soft close hinges and I can now opt for a larger overlay on the hinge side. I can add 3/4" on both edges. I will have to make sure I have enough room for that, but ideally, to look more like a contemporary job most of the face frame will be covered by the doors.
> 
> In any event, that is why I used a brush for the test samples.


The areas that have to be rolled/brushed would be my only concern with the Command. You can add a little water but I've been curious about trying the XIM extender as it seems to work better with newer technology acrylics. None of the BM extenders work with Command.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

It seemed to brush out OK. I have this weird oval brush from the Netherlands and it holds a lot of paint. I used that for the final coat for all three. The oval brush seems fine, but not for cutting in. It is "self-cleaning" which means it is supposed to be suspended in water and hung vertically. The old paint settles to the bottom of the jar. I have not really had a chance to test that out. But for getting in corners and cutting in, I will need a second brush.









Wise Owl - ClingOn Brushes


ClingOn Brushes offer Superior application, resistant to shedding, smooth flawless finishing makes this brush the favorite brush among furniture painters.




wiseowlpaint.com


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I tested with the pencils after 8 days of cure time on Command, Break-Through! and Advance. The Advance and the Command were purchased from the same dealer in the identical white tint. The Break-Through! is from an earlier job and is also in white, but a slightly cooler shade. 

All three samples were on birch plywood. I brushed out 1-2-3 and sanded before applying two coats of paint. On the Break-Through I waited 6 hours between coats; on the others about 15 - 16 hours but no sanding between coats of finish.

I tested for two results. The first is called "plastic deformation" and that test is when the pencil is drawn firmly across the surface for about 1/4". If you can detect a detent in the surface with your fingernail there is plastic deformation. 

The hardness of the pencils from softest to hardest were: HB, H, H2, H3, H4, H5, H6, H7, H8, H9.

The softest pencil tested was HB and none of the finishes suffered plastic deformation. Only Break-Through! survived H1, and it also failed at H2. The pressure used on the pencils was not highly repeatable and it could be that all three finishes were about the same. 

The second test was to see when damage to the actual surface of the material occurred. All three failed at H6 with me chiseling off some of the finish in each case. 

So for white or light base finishes there seems to be little difference. For me the Advance and Command spray out nicer than the Break-Through! in satin, but having said that I never got a complaint about Break-Through from any of my customers. 

Right now I am giving the edge to Command for the quicker re-coat times. 

I also made a sample in red oak to see if I could bury the grain. I applied three coats of 1-2-3, sanding between coats and it needed three coats of paint to bury the grain. That finish was notably softer (plastic deformation) than the others, likely due to the softer substrate made up of all those layers of finish. I will repeat that test using a dedicated grain filler and see if the results are better.

I really wish there were some publications doing this testing so we would not have to guess or run our own tests. I have not found that data online however.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Packard said:


> I tested with the pencils after 8 days of cure time on Command, Break-Through! and Advance. The Advance and the Command were purchased from the same dealer in the identical white tint. The Break-Through! is from an earlier job and is also in white, but a slightly cooler shade.
> 
> All three samples were on birch plywood. I brushed out 1-2-3 and sanded before applying two coats of paint. On the Break-Through I waited 6 hours between coats; on the others about 15 - 16 hours but no sanding between coats of finish.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Data Packard. Great stuff. Maybe do another test after 30 days.? that would be the real test I'd say..


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Thanks for the Data Packard. Great stuff. Maybe do another test after 30 days.? that would be the real test I'd say..


My gold standard is 22 year old red oak countertop finished with 4 coats of Minwax oil base clear poly. No matter how hard I drag the edge of a nickel across the surface I cannot mar the finish. Of course 22 years is a long time to wait for a finish to cure, but it was nearly as hard after one year. It is why I believe finishes cure over an extended period of time.

And Minwax is not exactly a premium high-tech finish.

I will return to test in a few weeks


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Funny how paint always reinvents itself. 20 years ago the Tabor Abrasion test" was included on all Spec Sheets, along with hardness and flexibility? Scrubs are coming back into season. Does anyone remember the "Ceramic Finish"? Bottom line is Scrubs vs ability to touch up. In Alkyds, it was the hardness or "Polyurethane fortified vs self leveling". Both are tough balances to reach. My top choices from memory are the Regal Wall Satin and the Satin Impervo as the all time greats. 

The flexibility and hardness of Breakthrough are unmatched. Just paint some aluminum foil with Breakthrough and crumble it up and reflatten the sheet after a day, amazing stuff.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Funny how paint always reinvents itself. 20 years ago the Tabor Abrasion test" was included on all Spec Sheets, along with hardness and flexibility? Scrubs are coming back into season. Does anyone remember the "Ceramic Finish"? Bottom line is Scrubs vs ability to touch up. In Alkyds, it was the hardness or "Polyurethane fortified vs self leveling". Both are tough balances to reach. My top choices from memory are the Regal Wall Satin and the Satin Impervo as the all time greats.
> 
> The flexibility and hardness of Breakthrough are unmatched. Just paint some aluminum foil with Breakthrough and crumble it up and reflatten the sheet after a day, amazing stuff.


The Tabor Abrasion test was an oscillating toothbrush across the surface. The number of passes were counted, and the test was over when the coating failed. FWIW Duron Paints were the ruling champion in the early 2000"s with a product called Plastikote. The paint & primer bull always left a blotchy and sticky surface IMHO. Tell me how good paint and primer works over a heavily stained nicotine wall? How well does it cover pen and pencil marks? Throw in peeling paint from moisture intrusion. Sorry, either you need a primer and then a paint. Not both, Have a great day. Time to make the doughnuts.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Funny how paint always reinvents itself. 20 years ago the Tabor Abrasion test" was included on all Spec Sheets, along with hardness and flexibility? Scrubs are coming back into season. Does anyone remember the "Ceramic Finish"? Bottom line is Scrubs vs ability to touch up. In Alkyds, it was the hardness or "Polyurethane fortified vs self leveling". Both are tough balances to reach. My top choices from memory are the Regal Wall Satin and the Satin Impervo as the all time greats.
> 
> The flexibility and hardness of Breakthrough are unmatched. Just paint some aluminum foil with Breakthrough and crumble it up and reflatten the sheet after a day, amazing stuff.


I heard through the grapevine that they are once again re-formulating the low VOC Breakthrough formula. AKA adding more VOC's or making it cabinet grade again. We currently can't get the 250 up here..sadly


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I heard through the grapevine that they are once again re-formulating the low VOC Breakthrough formula. AKA adding more VOC's or making it cabinet grade again. We currently can't get the 250 up here..sadly


They are just emerging from the raw material shortages with Breakthrough backorders. I'm no chemist, but there is a world of difference between how the V50 & V70 lines versus the V51 & V71lines perform. The V50 & 70 lines are shipping again. Call the store or distributor (DSC) to check availability. 

Breakthrough dries in 10 to 15 minutes. With proper ventilation, it would be tough for the end user to notice or smell anything once dried? PPG's strength is in its chemistry. Notice SW has reformulated the exterior SuperPaint lines the A80, 84 and A89 lines for better coverage. There is only so much you can remove from a gallon of paint.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

There's a huge difference between the 50 and 51 the 51 shouldn't even be under the Breakthrough label. I finally got my hands on a gallon of Command. Got some tester doors primed today and I'll try spraying it tomorrow. If I like the way it sprays over BIN I'll try some tests brushing and rolling it.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> There's a huge difference between the 50 and 51 the 51 shouldn't even be under the Breakthrough label. I finally got my hands on a gallon of Command. Got some tester doors primed today and I'll try spraying it tomorrow. If I like the way it sprays over BIN I'll try some tests brushing and rolling it.


I'll be curious on your findings Rbriggs. Word of caution, I found the Command didn't play nice with the BIN. You may need a bridge coat between BIN and Command..I got alot of fisheyes..


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

And I had issues with Break-Through! 250 over BIN, with crazing and cracks as it dried. No issues over 123 though.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Rbriggs82 said:


> There's a huge difference between the 50 and 51 the 51 shouldn't even be under the Breakthrough label. I finally got my hands on a gallon of Command. Got some tester doors primed today and I'll try spraying it tomorrow. If I like the way it sprays over BIN I'll try some tests brushing and rolling it.


I didn't check the distribution centers, but the V50 & 70 lines are available @ many stores in the white base. If PPG is reformulating the V51 & 71 lines, makes sense not to make available until the material shortage is @ the end? 

I did a draw down over the BIN shellac and was not impressed either. a draw down card is paper and plastic, shellac is hard and not flexible. I also did a draw down of the Emerald Urethane over the shellac. The shellac did not improve the performance of either product. FWIW


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I'll be curious on your findings Rbriggs. Word of caution, I found the Command didn't play nice with the BIN. You may need a bridge coat between BIN and Command..I got alot of fisheyes..


I remember you mentioning that, I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Packard said:


> And I had issues with Break-Through! 250 over BIN, with crazing and cracks as it dried. No issues over 123 though.


Interesting, I've sprayed it over BIN countless times and never had a problem. Going over smartprime was the only time I've had an issue with it.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> I didn't check the distribution centers, but the V50 & 70 lines are available @ many stores in the white base. If PPG is reformulating the V51 & 71 lines, makes sense not to make available until the material shortage is @ the end?
> 
> I did a draw down over the BIN shellac and was not impressed either. a draw down card is paper and plastic, shellac is hard and not flexible. I also did a draw down of the Emerald Urethane over the shellac. The shellac did not improve the performance of either product. FWIW


Should mention that the Gripper primer worked extremely well as a tie coat over formica for both products. Outperformed the shellac.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Interesting, I've sprayed it over BIN countless times and never had a problem. Going over smartprime was the only time I've had an issue with it.


The crazing only appeared over the MDF center panel (I was building shaker cabinets). No problem over the poplar rails and stiles. So the substrate appears to have had something to do with the problem.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Latest update for the new and improved Breakthrough. The V51 is now the V52, I'm glad it is available in quarts. most furniture and tricky surfaces require a quart, not $70 * bucks for a gallon. Orders started shipping last week. Let your store or salesmen know it is now available.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mike mineral spirits said:


> I didn't check the distribution centers, but the V50 & 70 lines are available @ many stores in the white base. If PPG is reformulating the V51 & 71 lines, makes sense not to make available until the material shortage is @ the end?
> 
> I did a draw down over the BIN shellac and was not impressed either. a draw down card is paper and plastic, shellac is hard and not flexible. I also did a draw down of the Emerald Urethane over the shellac. The shellac did not improve the performance of either product. FWIW


 I wouldn't think that was a good test, as everyone knows shellac is not flexible. Why do a draw down on paper and plastic. Oak and birch certainly aren't flexible like a piece of paper. I haven't found anything that can adhere to old vanished birch cabinets like BIN. Not Stix, Gripper or any of the latex primers. Even Cover Stain. I've tried them all.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Well I sprayed a coat on some sample doors with both Command and Cabinet Coat yesterday, today I'll do another. Right off the bat I can say they were both easier to get a nice spray pattern than Breakthrough and at a much lower psi. I'm curious to see how they all feel and look.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I wouldn't think that was a good test, as everyone knows shellac is not flexible. Why do a draw down on paper and plastic. Oak and birch certainly aren't flexible like a piece of paper. I haven't found anything that can adhere to old vanished birch cabinets like BIN. Not Stix, Gripper or any of the latex primers. Even Cover Stain. I've tried them all.


I did a draw down for customers to compare the performance of Breakthrough Versus Emerald Urethane^ 6 draw down cards. two with shellac and V50 & Emerald. 2 plain without primer. I also used Gripper, but as we all know, a latex will not reach its maximum hardness or adhesion strength for 48 to 72 hours. The draw down cards I used were the black and white checkerboard ones that show or demonstrate wet and dry film coverage. These are not the draw down cards used for Decorators or Architects to get a color approved. The draw down bar I used was @ 3 mils wet versus the usual 4 mil wet bar.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I wouldn't think that was a good test, as everyone knows shellac is not flexible. Why do a draw down on paper and plastic. Oak and birch certainly aren't flexible like a piece of paper. I haven't found anything that can adhere to old vanished birch cabinets like BIN. Not Stix, Gripper or any of the latex primers. Even Cover Stain. I've tried them all.


I find that Sealcoat works on most varnished surfaces as you would expect. It is simply BIN without the pigments. I only use it in an emergency, as it is more expensive than BIN probably because it is only available in smaller cans where I live.

I looked at draw down bars, but I could not see how it would help in my cabinet business. Plus they are pretty expensive ($300.00 seems to be about average).

Do you guys all have draw down bars? What are the advantages of having them.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Sprayed them both a second coat this morning and after a 6 hour dry time I've gotta say the finish are the cabinet coat was way nicer, both looking and to the touch. Breakthrough and Command were very similar finish wise but I think the Command was a hair nicer. 

I did notice that I made smudge marks on the cabinet coat when handling it but they washed off with a little water and a microfiber cloth.

Tomorrow morning I'm going to wrap the door painted with cabinet coat in a moving mat and put some weight on it for a couple hours to simulate transporting to a job. I wanna see if it'll imprint marks on the surface or if it'll be hard enough to transport the day after spraying like breakthrough is.

I also brushed some out I was very surprised how nice the Command laid out even with the super fast dry time. I'll brush some more then dry rolling them both and tipping them off with a brush.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Packard said:


> I find that Sealcoat works on most varnished surfaces as you would expect. It is simply BIN without the pigments. I only use it in an emergency, as it is more expensive than BIN probably because it is only available in smaller cans where I live.
> 
> I looked at draw down bars, but I could not see how it would help in my cabinet business. Plus they are pretty expensive ($300.00 seems to be about average).
> 
> Do you guys all have draw down bars? What are the advantages of having them.


I'm glad you asked. A checkered or striped draw down card is a great selling tool @ the store level to compare products. on an 9X11 draw down I would take a table spoon of HiHide versus another tablespoon of Superpaint. With a table spoon of each and the customer has an actual comparison of initial coverage and final dried product. We now use a variegated draw down like a machine screw to demonstrate the leveling abilities in lets say a semi gloss. Dry time can be accelerated with a heat lamp and the customer can make the final comparison. A paint factory would also use the striped or checkered cards when making a factory batch in lets say a bone white. The Chemist compares the dry times and color standards for accuracy of the batch. Untinted paint like a deep base and a Ultra deep base is also drawn down to assure the accuracy of the formula or I should say the formulation. A comparison gives the plant manager feedback in real time. Raw materials processed usually have a plus or minus 5% standard which is processed at the plant level. a Hundred pounds of Titanium 3 is not always a 100 pounds for formulation purposes. 

The solid draw down cards are used for color approval, whether it be a builder, developer, architect, engineer or decorator. Cities, municipalities, Casinos, department stores It's not unusual for a Decorator whose responsibility it is to maintain their corporate image reject the standard that is actively being used in different parts of the country by the same corporation? 

A Zeiss drawdown bar was almost $400 in 1989. I was gifted one by a Valspar Plant manager. Never loan out your fan deck, drawdown bar, moisture meter or your PH pencil to a salesman, you will never see it again. You can buy a knock off if you go to Home Depot and find a large 16+ inch machine screw. That is what our draw down bars look like now at the store level, rather than the traditional smooth bars. 

I will do a draw down of the new + improved Breakthrough V52 versus V 50 in a couple of weeks.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> I'm glad you asked. A checkered or striped draw down card is a great selling tool @ the store level to compare products. on an 9X11 draw down I would take a table spoon of HiHide versus another tablespoon of Superpaint. With a table spoon of each and the customer has an actual comparison of initial coverage and final dried product. We now use a variegated draw down like a machine screw to demonstrate the leveling abilities in lets say a semi gloss. Dry time can be accelerated with a heat lamp and the customer can make the final comparison. A paint factory would also use the striped or checkered cards when making a factory batch in lets say a bone white. The Chemist compares the dry times and color standards for accuracy of the batch. Untinted paint like a deep base and a Ultra deep base is also drawn down to assure the accuracy of the formula or I should say the formulation. A comparison gives the plant manager feedback in real time. Raw materials processed usually have a plus or minus 5% standard which is processed at the plant level. a Hundred pounds of Titanium 3 is not always a 100 pounds for formulation purposes.
> 
> The solid draw down cards are used for color approval, whether it be a builder, developer, architect, engineer or decorator. Cities, municipalities, Casinos, department stores It's not unusual for a Decorator whose responsibility it is to maintain their corporate image reject the standard that is actively being used in different parts of the country by the same corporation?
> 
> ...


Here's a hint, don't get old. Have a color complaint or coverage issue? The paint store always asks for the paint you are complaining about back so they can provide the factory with the batch number. The chemist takes out the standard for the product, let's say b20w2651 for Pro Mar 200 zero VOC. You had a left over can of B20w1251 from 2013 and complained the coverage is no good. The plant will take out their standard and tint it to your color and use a variety of tests with the checkered draw down cards for analysis. So, you say it doesn't cover, they take their bar @ 4mils wet and draw down both products and decide you are in error. We will provide you with an up graded product and you will be happy again and never complain!! we all know it doesn't cover as well but everyone is satisfied. LOl. Have a great weekend.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Thanks for that detailed explanation. Further Google search finds offerings on Amazon.com ranging from $69.00 to $395.00. 

I suspect there are quality differences involved, but not easily determined by reading the description. If (or when) I feel a need for one of these I will query here for some guidance. I am not seeing a compelling reason to spend on this at this time.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I find that Sealcoat works on most varnished surfaces as you would expect. It is simply BIN without the pigments. I only use it in an emergency, as it is more expensive than BIN probably because it is only available in smaller cans where I live.
> 
> I looked at draw down bars, but I could not see how it would help in my cabinet business. Plus they are pretty expensive ($300.00 seems to be about average).
> 
> Do you guys all have draw down bars? What are the advantages of having them.


I use a 4mil formed rod. cheaper and easier to clean. Sufficient quality for my needs.





Formed Film Applicator Rod, 0.2 mils | Formed Film Applicator Rods | Applicators | Paint Application | Products | PNG Gardco


Formed Applicator Rods are grooved rods that provide extremely precise metered coatings on film, tin, rubber, boards, plastics, glass, textiles and more.




gardco.com


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I use a 4mil formed rod. cheaper and easier to clean. Sufficient quality for my needs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gardco is a great company to cover the paint manufacturers back. What paint salesman hasn't used a Gardco wet mil gage to measure the thickness of n elastomeric being applied or an epoxy being applied? When the power company offered incentives to apply a roofing elastomeric and the recommended film thickness wasn't being met? Square footage versus the required spread rate then divide by the number of gallons used? Case closed counselor! Manufacturers now regulate who they or we can sell their products to. This is for the protection of the end user. 

Fabulous prices on draw down bars.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Gardco is a great company to cover the paint manufacturers back. What paint salesman hasn't used a Gardco wet mil gage to measure the thickness of n elastomeric being applied or an epoxy being applied? When the power company offered incentives to apply a roofing elastomeric and the recommended film thickness wasn't being met? Square footage versus the required spread rate then divide by the number of gallons used? Case closed counselor! Manufacturers now regulate who they or we can sell their products to. This is for the protection of the end user.
> 
> Fabulous prices on draw down bars.


On third street off of Atlantic and I-95 if my memory is any good.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Cabinet Coat after another coat has a way nicer finish and feel than the Command, it's closer to a lacquer type look and feel. I wrapped both the doors with cabinet coat and command in a moving mat and set a case of water on them both for four hours this morning and they both didn't have any imprints on them. This week I'll mess around brushing and rolling them.

Btw Kevin, I didn't have any fisheyes with the command over Bin on the two doors I sprayed.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

*Flexible Coating*
_From warehouse floor paint to metal railings, COMMAND offers resistance to cracking and peeling while bending, moving, expanding or contracting. 

A go-to solution for interior/exterior projects, COMMAND works on metal, masonry, vinyl, drywall, tile, PVC and much more_.

The above from B-M website. Corotech COMMAND | Benjamin Moore


Only snake oil salesmen make broader claims. I believe there is some competency for all of those applications, however I don’t believe that it is the top choice for all of them. There is going to need to be some sorting out being done.


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## Glenn-1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Packard said:


> *Flexible Coating*
> _From warehouse floor paint to metal railings, COMMAND offers resistance to cracking and peeling while bending, moving, expanding or contracting.
> 
> A go-to solution for interior/exterior projects, COMMAND works on metal, masonry, vinyl, drywall, tile, PVC and much more_.
> ...


You seem to have a very good point. No product has ever been able to excel at all those things by coming out of the same can. This is either the best paint ever, or a product that can do all these different substrates but does not excel at all or any of them. I’m waiting for it to come to Canada this month to try it out.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Cabinet Coat after another coat has a way nicer finish and feel than the Command, it's closer to a lacquer type look and feel. I wrapped both the doors with cabinet coat and command in a moving mat and set a case of water on them both for four hours this morning and they both didn't have any imprints on them. This week I'll mess around brushing and rolling them.
> 
> Btw Kevin, I didn't have any fisheyes with the command over Bin on the two doors I sprayed.


 Well that's good news. What did you spray them with? Airless or hvlp. Satin or high-gloss?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Well that's good news. What did you spray them with? Airless or hvlp. Satin or high-gloss?


I sprayed the satin with an airless using a 310 tip.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I sprayed the satin with an airless using a 310 tip.


I wonder if it's because I mostly use Advance in my machines. Cross contamination. I really do like all the benefits of this product. A big one no one has really mentioned is the low temperature application. I believe 2 degs. C. Great for those outside doors on a cooler day.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

2 degrees sounds lovely. Just need a matching primer.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> 2 degrees sounds lovely. Just need a matching primer.


I think Fresh Start good down to 4degs. although the Command doesn't really need a primer. Atleast on metal doors.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I'd like to try it on bare metal. Maybe on a small job when nobody is looking.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

The problem with a water-based finish on steel is twofold.

First the surface has to be clean of all grease, oil or wax. Being that clean makes it susceptible to rust in just a few hours.

A neighbor used to park his new Corvette outdoors during the day. When he drove it, any rust or surface contamination on the brake rotors would be wiped clean. When I would walk my dog past the car a few hours after he drove it, the rotors had a light coating of red rust. So the clean surface that is required for paint adhesion, allows for quick appearance of rust. 

Applying water in the form of a water-based paint sound like a mistake to me. I would use a shellac based primer and then paint. This may be more theoretical than real, but for me it is worrisome to paint over raw steel with water-based paints.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I don't think it's a big deal, for most applications. I've gone over rusty structural steel with dryfall and it's held up for years. Lots of black steel piping, as well, with zero issues.

Command, and similar products, would be going over galvanealed doors/frames, so there are no rust worries.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

OK. I will try it on some baseboard heaters with light rust.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Command can be applied directly to galvanized or aluminum. Raw steel should have a rust preventive primer applied.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Should mention that the Gripper primer worked extremely well as a tie coat over formica for both products. Outperformed the shellac.


How is the newer PPG Gripper? There's a few Youtube videos and complaints that it's worse than the former Glidden branded product. I've been really wanting to try it.


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## Larz (Jun 27, 2021)

Hey guys do I need to thin Command to spray my kitchen cabinets through small sprayer? 
Thanks


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