# Sherwin Williams Duration WTF!!



## bskerley

Currently having some issues with Duration Matte. We are doing a new construction interior with smooth walls. Did a first coat of high build, spray and backrolled. Second coat I brush and rolled the duration and the third coat I sprayed and back rolled. The problem is I am getting alot of, uhhh what the hell is it called, where you can see where the roller has been. Shadowing of sorts. I just finished another job that was smooth walls and we did promar 200 egg and had none of these problems. Is this a common problem with duration. Also we are using a 3/8 nap poly roller. Answers please. Thanks!


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## straight_lines

What color?


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## bskerley

Swiss Coffee


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## bskerley

I have also had this issue with duration in a dark brown but it was alot less noticeable.


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## jack pauhl

Should be a sticky and that paint should come with an instruction manual. 

Ten Most Important Facts About Duration Home

Sherwin Williams Duration Home Matte


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## ewingpainting.net

bskerley said:


> Did a first coat of high build, spray and backrolled. Second coat I brush and rolled the duration and the third coat I sprayed and back rolled.


With a product like Duration, I think where your problem is you have to much build, with the high build primer and 2 coats of Duration, with your touch ups, the build is creating more sheen, I'm guessing it is a sheen deference rather than a color issue. The high quality of the acrylics gives the surface a tighter seal, creating a sheen deference when your touching up. If this is the case, painful my friend, painful! All just a guess though, good luck.


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## bskerley

No touchups at all yet. This is all just in the first and second coat. But what you said is kinda what i was thinking today as well. To much build. But with reading the article above your post maybe its a product issue cause this is exactly what is happening. Had a sherwin rep out today to look at it. Not entirely sure that it helped me at all.


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> No touchups at all yet. This is all just in the first and second coat. But what you said is kinda what i was thinking today as well. To much build. But with reading the article above your post maybe its a product issue cause this is exactly what is happening. Had a sherwin rep out today to look at it. Not entirely sure that it helped me at all.


Let's call it inherent with applying liquid plastic. Im not sure it's a product issue but rather a characteristic of the paint. Our SW rep suggested a 3/4" nap roller to better divert the unevenness by applying more unevenness. Interesting theory he had but at least he acknowledged the issue. There is nothing your rep can do to make this paint perform differently.


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## bskerley

Ya I agree. Was just hoping he could tell me something. I seriously thought I had forgotten how to paint or something. Glad this is a common issue. So lets say I decide to say screw duration. Going over it with a different product would be fine correct? Making duration an expensive primer. Problem now is that I have spent far to much time on this job and just need to finish it up and get out. The customer is not going to be happy unless it looks perfect and it seems like there is a damn good chance that it may never happen if i stick with duration.


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## ewingpainting.net

I dont think it will go away with a different product, the build is already there, I would try thining the paint down, rerolling the effected walls corner to corner.

BTW jack, I like your blog, never really looked at it until now


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## jack pauhl

ewingpainting.net said:


> I dont think it will go away with a different product, the build is already there, I would try thining the paint down, rerolling the effected walls corner to corner.
> 
> BTW jack, I like your blog, never really looked at it until now


Thanks Gabe. Like you said, once build is there with Duration you'll have one hell of a time doing something with it. Its like damage is done and Duration is not easy to sand. Even with 180g on an orbital sander it takes a bit to bring Duration down. Going too abrasive can literally rip a coat off the wall then you have bigger problems. Been there done that. I've seen Duration tear to the previous coat rather than seeing it feather. No question Duration is a unique product. Normal rules do not apply.


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## bskerley

So your recommendation is get it to the best i can and be done with it. And that hitting it with another paint is just going to keep it looking the same. The ceilings I guess are really my huge concern right now. The way the light comes in on these rooms it makes is stand out so much. I have gotten the walls to look somewhat acceptable. I just want the ceilings to look good. Maybe Ill try some 200 low sheen in a smaller room and see how it looks.


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## bskerley

Also whos reps advice would u use. I was using a 3/8 nap roller and he told me go shorter. Yours said go longer right. Who's right here?


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> So your recommendation is get it to the best i can and be done with it. And that hitting it with another paint is just going to keep it looking the same. The ceilings I guess are really my huge concern right now. The way the light comes in on these rooms it makes is stand out so much. I have gotten the walls to look somewhat acceptable. I just want the ceilings to look good. Maybe Ill try some 200 low sheen in a smaller room and see how it looks.


Do u have to keep sheen on the ceilings? If you can go flat then use 400, it hides stuff.


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> Also whos reps advice would u use. I was using a 3/8 nap roller and he told me go shorter. Yours said go longer right. Who's right here?


Its a loaded question. Too many variables to give a correct answer. The important thing to understand it you want a roller cover capable of large loads so you can distribute a good amount of paint on the wall--fast, but you also want to make sure you can lay it off tight. If it helps you any, I have not found a cover from SW to do both. 

Oddly enough, because I get my hands on so many different products... my favorite today to spread Duration home is the PVR-2950. I found this one at a local hardware store. 

Wooster pro doo z's will give a tight finish but you need to move up to 3/4" nap to get load capacity to move Duration. 1/2" just doesn't cut it. I want my loads to do 2 roller widths 8' high with Duration because it gives you a few seconds of play time without compromising a tight finish. You just need to distribute it evenly.


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## bskerley

So I think I should get another person on a roller and have them ready with paint the second I finish rolling a section. huh huh what do you think of that. lol


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> So I think I should get another person on a roller and have them ready with paint the second I finish rolling a section. huh huh what do you think of that. lol


What Gabe and I are saying is now that you have striping down the walls, I can roll that wall for you and it will look exactly like your coat does. It is permanently in the wall now and another coat will likely make it stand out more.


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## bskerley

Well thats what is weirds then, I did a small test section of about 8 by 4 and it looks better. Not perfect but better. Same deal on the ceilings. What I did was I would roll out a section of about 2 or 3 by 4 feet. Then I rolled that all one direction, Then I did another section right after it and back rolled the two together. I did that until I was all the way across the ceiling, about 4 times. And I would start at the beggining and pull all the way through each section. Sounds weird now hearing how this paint works but it seemed to be better. You would be able to see some clear variation between the first 4 foot wide pass across the ceiling and the second pass but not between each small section to make a full pass. 

If any of that makes any sense to you. Also provenbrands site seems to be down. What store did u find that at.


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## Mike's QP

We did a recent interior repaint with duration home satin, we had some flashing issues there too, I didn't roll it myself so I can't say if it was user error or just the product. The guy that applied it usually gives satisfactory results so I believe it is the product, we could have used our standard go-to mid-grade paint with better results. Anyways I wasn't impressed with the duration home and will probably true the superpaint or cashmere next time.


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> Well thats what is weirds then, I did a small test section of about 8 by 4 and it looks better. Not perfect but better. Same deal on the ceilings. What I did was I would roll out a section of about 2 or 3 by 4 feet. Then I rolled that all one direction, Then I did another section right after it and back rolled the two together. I did that until I was all the way across the ceiling, about 4 times. And I would start at the beggining and pull all the way through each section. Sounds weird now hearing how this paint works but it seemed to be better. You would be able to see some clear variation between the first 4 foot wide pass across the ceiling and the second pass but not between each small section to make a full pass.
> 
> If any of that makes any sense to you. Also provenbrands site seems to be down. What store did u find that at.


I think it was Do It Best Hardware or maybe True Value... not sure. Their site has been down for some time.


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## TJ Paint

Just spray another coat on, no backroll.

Last time I used duration int was several years ago. Wasn't impressed. I'd rather use Behr than that stuff.:thumbsup:


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## straight_lines

Certain bases/colors are a pleasure to work with Duration. Of course I feel the same way with other high end matte paints. They flash because of the angular sheen differences between brushing and rolling. 

I beg clients to spec flat or go to eggshell because you never know what you are gonna get with the color they choose.


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## Workaholic

jack pauhl said:


> Should be a sticky and that paint should come with an instruction manual.
> 
> Ten Most Important Facts About Duration Home
> 
> Sherwin Williams Duration Home Matte


lol I have not had any problems with duration other than problematic colors. Funny that you chimed in to dog duration and if it was a behr thread you would be praising the stuff.


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## CK_68847

bskerley said:


> Currently having some issues with Duration Matte. We are doing a new construction interior with smooth walls. Did a first coat of high build, spray and backrolled. Second coat I brush and rolled the duration and the third coat I sprayed and back rolled. The problem is I am getting alot of, uhhh what the hell is it called, where you can see where the roller has been. Shadowing of sorts. I just finished another job that was smooth walls and we did promar 200 egg and had none of these problems. Is this a common problem with duration. Also we are using a 3/8 nap poly roller. Answers please. Thanks!


Duration Interior is a crap paint in my view. I have had similar problems. I have had where you have the v look. One part of the v looks completely different than the other part as you roll up and down. It looks like you have two colors. The only option if you are going to use duration in this instance is to roll strictly up or strictly down. The better option is to go buy the pre cat expoxy, or color accents which doesn't do it.

If you get into the 200 esghell deep bases, they tend to hatband at times. I think it is the gold which makes them hatband. If you are going deep base, I would stay away from 200 egshell in most cases, especially with some of the darker browns.


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## Mike's QP

We always lay off in one direction it minimizes the probability of the flashing/sheen difference. Even with flats... just in case.


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## Paradigmzz

CK_68847 said:


> If you get into the 200 esghell deep bases, they tend to hatband at times. I think it is the gold which makes them hatband. If you are going deep base, I would stay away from 200 egshell in most cases, especially with some of the darker browns.



I've had no problems with the reformulated zero VOC 200. I do agree with the previous version though.


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## bskerley

Mike's QP said:


> We did a recent interior repaint with duration home satin, we had some flashing issues there too, I didn't roll it myself so I can't say if it was user error or just the product. The guy that applied it usually gives satisfactory results so I believe it is the product, we could have used our standard go-to mid-grade paint with better results. Anyways I wasn't impressed with the duration home and will probably true the superpaint or cashmere next time.


How did u guys remedy the problem?


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## Mike's QP

bskerley said:


> How did u guys remedy the problem?


 The home owner loved it.... one thing that I didn't state was that it was a one coat project as requested by the homeowner, it had a flat paint on it we applied the duration home satin on top (same color).


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## bskerley

Mike's QP said:


> We always lay off in one direction it minimizes the probability of the flashing/sheen difference. Even with flats... just in case.


I obviously roll up and down but then pull it down from the ceiling after I feel that section is even. Unfortunately it is still completely obvious where the roller had been. Seriously looks like I was trying to stripe the wall. Regardless customer isnt happy, im pissed and need to figure out a solution. Should be interesting to see how sherwin handles this. I know my customer is going to go ape **** on them if they cant come up with something that satisfies him.


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## bskerley

Mike's QP said:


> The home owner loved it.... one thing that I didn't state was that it was a one coat project as requested by the homeowner, it had a flat paint on it we applied the duration home satin on top (same color).


But you had an issue with the striping or flashing right. 

Maybe the home owner had no idea. Some dont. Unfortunately mine is a builder and he does. Also doesnt help that these are flat no texture walls. (were no texture walls, lol)


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## Mike's QP

Watering down the paint might help, give you a little more open time with it. I have only used it that one time and I didn't get the result I was expecting since it is SW A+ #1 top of the line paint...


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## Mike's QP

bskerley said:


> But you had an issue with the striping or flashing right.
> 
> Maybe the home owner had no idea. Some dont. Unfortunately mine is a builder and he does. Also doesnt help that these are flat no texture walls. (were no texture walls, lol)


 ouch.. mine were textured


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## Mike's QP

Do you think the backrolling of the highbuild primer is making the effect? The inconsistency in the roller stipple?


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## Paradigmzz

Mike's QP said:


> Do you think the backrolling of the highbuild primer is making the effect? The inconsistency in the roller stipple?



Ding! Ding! Ding! 


We have a winner!

Why in the sam he77 are you using a high build primer on flat walls? PVA it and be done. The build of stipple from a high build primer will be more counter productive to the project than the topcoat......


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## jack pauhl

Workaholic said:


> lol I have not had any problems with duration other than problematic colors. Funny that you chimed in to dog duration and if it was a behr thread you would be praising the stuff.


It's largely problematic on smooth flat walls. Trust me, our rep was very familiar with it and not because of us and the emails I receive on it are ongoing. It is currently the top trending topic this month on the site.

I have not been on a job another paint contractor painted with Duration who said, "never have any problems with it", that I was not be able to point it out. Not saying thats you-- just saying. To those guys, it looked like a painted wall like any other painted wall. 

At least I offered a solution right?


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## Workaholic

Paradigmzz said:


> PVA it and be done. The build of stipple from a high build primer will be more counter productive to the project than the topcoat......


:yes:


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## Paradigmzz

Ive been to jobs with every type of paint applied, and I have never seen it as much as I do with Behr. 

Jack, I still appreciate you, and no, I am not advocating for Duration either. I apply 2 coats and dont see any intrinsic value in overpaying for any paint.


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## bskerley

Paradigmzz said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding!
> 
> 
> We have a winner!
> 
> Why in the sam he77 are you using a high build primer on flat walls? PVA it and be done. The build of stipple from a high build primer will be more counter productive to the project than the topcoat......


Unfortunately I dont think this is the problem at all. I am at the job and can see what it is doing. Like I said earlier in the post, I have had this problem with duration before, deep base that time, and that was on previously painted walls. So I would have to say, and others would agree, its the product.


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## Paradigmzz

bskerley said:


> Unfortunately I dont think this is the problem at all. I am at the job and can see what it is doing. Like I said earlier in the post, I have had this problem with duration before, deep base that time, and that was on previously painted walls. So I would have to say, and others would agree, its the product.



I'm just basing it on my experiences. If its the paint. Get another paint. If you have had this problem before, why are ou using it again? Honestly, if you have to lay off all your rolling in one direction, that's ridiculous. The only option you have is to repaint, if you use another product and still see flashing, it MAY be because the primer is raised in certain areas where it was tacky and this stippled, creating a different light pattern in it and be the problem. If not, use another paint and remedy. I think your problem sucks, and I feel for you. If you firmly believe it is the paint, have your rep see it, get them to mix you some other product (cashmere, super paint whatever) and refund you for the Duration. Either way, you will find out whos fault it is, yours or theirs and if theirs, put some money back in your pocket. Hell stick em with the bill to repaint it. SW will absorb it. Get bitchy with them, they will and do have to eat crap like this more than you know. Its the price of doing business. 

The directionality of your roller pattern sounds fookin rediculous to me. If this is the case, the paint is stippling too much and your stuff is WAY too thick to begin with...


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## bskerley

Paradigmzz said:


> I'm just basing it on my experiences. If its the paint. Get another paint. If you have had this problem before, why are ou using it again? Honestly, if you have to lay off all your rolling in one direction, that's ridiculous. The only option you have is to repaint, if you use another product and still see flashing, it MAY be because the primer is raised in certain areas where it was tacky and this stippled, creating a different light pattern in it and be the problem. If not, use another paint and remedy. I think your problem sucks, and I feel for you. If you firmly believe it is the paint, have your rep see it, get them to mix you some other product (cashmere, super paint whatever) and refund you for the Duration. Either way, you will find out whos fault it is, yours or theirs and if theirs, put some money back in your pocket. Hell stick em with the bill to repaint it. SW will absorb it. Get bitchy with them, they will and do have to eat crap like this more than you know. Its the price of doing business.
> 
> The directionality of your roller pattern sounds fookin rediculous to me. If this is the case, the paint is stippling too much and your stuff is WAY too thick to begin with...


Couldnt agree with 99 percent of that more. I had the rep out today. Some help he was. But I will be trying something else in the morning and if its my fault, so be it, Ill eat the cost. But I dont think it is. If you see the link that were posted, it is showing exactly what I am having a problem with. Not arguing you at all. Just saying, I hope sherwin is going to be flexible with my complaints and how I feel they should handle the issue. Thank you for your input.


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## Ultimate

jack pauhl said:


> What Gabe and I are saying is now that you have striping down the walls, I can roll that wall for you and it will look exactly like your coat does. It is permanently in the wall now and another coat will likely make it stand out more.


Man I was with you Jack up to here..........

I will return to the thread after this post but this one just stopped me. 

To the OP. Flat on the ceilings if you can talk them into it. If it needs sheen, You need to do like the link suggested in Jack's first post. 18" rollers. Two or three guys w 18" rollers if the ceiling is big. Wet edge. Wet edge. Wet edge. Don't let it tack up. After spreading the paint, do the one stroke top to bottom or left to right if it is a ceiling and then stay the heck out of it. Don't go back in it. Nope leave it alone. 

Nobody knows how to paint with oil anymore. 
Same principle though. 

You can fix the wall if all you gotta do is sand it with 100g on the pole sander and put a coat on the right way. 

Anyway. Good thread. Good posts by Jack til ^ 
Jack, I'm starting to like you. I think I can learn some things from you.
The blog is nice.


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## Ultimate

This is too funny... 

Is a can of paint really whoopin everyone like this?

It's not the use of HB primer causing this. Imo. 

I use SW high build on my flat walls becuase sheetrock ppl generally are not good and after I dust the walls and backroll it sanding it is a breeze. And for me just because I dusted the walls and backrolled doesn't mean I skip sanding the walls after. 

I think he doesn't know how to paint is all. Sorry. 

I remember back when rolling entire kitchens and bathrooms in oil was the ticket. Some people would do the whole house. Same selling principle as the eggshell and satin acrylics. Only technology has advanced some since then. 

Anyway, maybe Jack will provide a video of the proper way to roll with this stuff for his blog. 

I saw it written somewhere in this thread, after a certain technique is developed for rolling, brushing, spraying or whatever I just keep it for everything I do. I brush all doors as if they were being painted with oil gloss just out of habit. Same way with rolling. Dude it's a wall and a can of paint. Make it pretty.


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## Ultimate

Mike's QP said:


> We always lay off in one direction it minimizes the probability of the flashing/sheen difference. Even with flats... just in case.


 
This one. Just in habit also.


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## jack pauhl

Bskerley, you'll find this interesting. Just left a job we used Duration Home on months ago. The same GC had a problem with the other paint contractors work on a house few doors down where they too used Duration but the GC was not happy with their finish on smooth walls and ceilings. 

The GC gave the painter our website and basically told him to figure it out and make it look right. 

Happens all the time with Duration Home. Thought it was odd that happened today but I shouldn't be surprised.


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## bskerley

Well I did the ceilings in flat and they look perfect. But we knew that would happen. The walls are still an issue. Did a test wall with a 1/4 nap roller and another with a 1/2. Decided I would try what my rep said and what yours said. Kept a wet edge and moved quickly. We will see how they turn out tomorrow. 

Maybe sanding and moving into a different product in low sheen is the best plan. Or maybe I can just burn the house down. LOL. But seriously I wish the customer would just settle on flat. Its a contemporary house and he has no kids or pets. Why cant he just keep his hands off the walls.


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## jenni

Mike's QP said:


> We always lay off in one direction it minimizes the probability of the flashing/sheen difference. Even with flats... just in case.


i do the same. works wonders


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## bskerley

jenni said:


> i do the same. works wonders


As do I, doesnt seem to matter much with this stuff.


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> Well I did the ceilings in flat and they look perfect. But we knew that would happen. The walls are still an issue. Did a test wall with a 1/4 nap roller and another with a 1/2. Decided I would try what my rep said and what yours said. Kept a wet edge and moved quickly. We will see how they turn out tomorrow.
> 
> Maybe sanding and moving into a different product in low sheen is the best plan. Or maybe I can just burn the house down. LOL. But seriously I wish the customer would just settle on flat. Its a contemporary house and he has no kids or pets. Why cant he just keep his hands off the walls.


It's a real shame about Duration, its pricey. You paid for that headache. Any profits are in the tank now. On the flip-side... much easier and nicer finishes can be produced with a paint more than half the price and it meets MPI #44. Can you pull color off when you scrub hard with it?... sure. Can you do the same with Duration?... Absolutely. Duration has 3,000+ scrubs so does the one more than half its price. Kind of a no brainer. When you seriously sit down and check-off the list of criteria and characteristics between other products then you're not left with nothing more than a very expensive paint. IMO


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## bskerley

Unfortunately my phone broke so this is a pic off of a terrible loaner phone. Really doesnt do it justice but you can kind of see what the issue is.


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## vermontpainter

jenni said:


> i do the same. works wonders


Production Killer! 


:jester:


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## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Production Killer!
> 
> 
> :jester:


Not really because when you take that time to lay off properly, you basically save yourself time from the chance of redoing it. Kind of like do it right the first time.


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## ewingpainting.net

I once had to skim coat a lid and just start over. To top it, it was all sprayed we never touched it with a roller. The more paint we applied the worse it got. I finally talked the gc into floating the lid out as he did. We applied one coat, 2nd coat over wet and worked out great. Sometimes it cost to learn something.


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## bskerley

So these seem to by my options. A. Talk the customer into flat. B. Sand it (which apparently doesnt work well with duration) C. Skim coat and start over.

Am I right here. Seems like there really wont be any fixing this issue with more paint. At least thats what I am getting.


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## jack pauhl

ewingpainting.net said:


> I once had to skim coat a lid and just start over. To top it, it was all sprayed we never touched it with a roller. The more paint we applied the worse it got. I finally talked the gc into floating the lid out as he did. We applied one coat, 2nd coat over wet and worked out great. Sometimes it cost to learn something.


No question Duration Home is unique. You can pull your 2nd coat off your 1st when sanding if you're not careful. I'm with you Gabe, I'll skim it rather than sand that stuff. That was a quick hard lesson to learn.


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## ewingpainting.net

I would at least try sanding a wall apply 1 coat of 1 part water mixed with 5 parts of paint.


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## bskerley

And expensive


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## vermontpainter

bskerley said:


> So these seem to by my options. A. Talk the customer into flat. B. Sand it (which apparently doesnt work well with duration) C. Skim coat and start over.
> 
> Am I right here. Seems like there really wont be any fixing this issue with more paint. At least thats what I am getting.


Pole sand and switch to Aura.


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## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> you need to move up to 3/4" nap to get load capacity to move Duration. 1/2" just doesn't cut it. I want my loads to...





jack pauhl said:


> It is permanently in the wall now and another coat will likely make it stand out more.





jack pauhl said:


> It's a real shame about Duration





jack pauhl said:


> You can pull your 2nd coat off your 1st when sanding if you're not careful. I'll skim it rather than sand that stuff. That was a quick hard lesson to learn.


Jack, 

As Father stated above in his own post, I like you, but...

Duration has you very confused. 

Its not that difficult to work with. We have done a few nc with it in the past year, and no problems whatsoever. 

I agree that its different. But, if you think about your sequence of statements above, you can mess around and push envelopes with it to the point that its more different than it has to be. 

Put the 3/4 naps away until you have block walls to roll. Duration will sand just fine. You will never skim a whole wall again!


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> So these seem to by my options. A. Talk the customer into flat. B. Sand it (which apparently doesnt work well with duration) C. Skim coat and start over.
> 
> Am I right here. Seems like there really wont be any fixing this issue with more paint. At least thats what I am getting.


We sanded Duration Home Matte today with Abranet Eco and it will smooth it out easily if you can find some. We used 180g today. Other than this stuff, never had any real luck sanding Duration effectively. Sorta balls up and creates these tiny barrels that cling to the walls. There is a name for those barrels but it slipping my mind at the moment.


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## bskerley

vermontpainter said:


> Jack,
> 
> As Father stated above in his own post, I like you, but...
> 
> Duration has you very confused.
> 
> Its not that difficult to work with. We have done a few nc with it in the past year, and no problems whatsoever.
> 
> I agree that its different. But, if you think about your sequence of statements above, you can mess around and push envelopes with it to the point that its more different than it has to be.
> 
> Put the 3/4 naps away until you have block walls to roll. Duration will sand just fine. You will never skim a whole wall again!


I guess my only question here is were the walls one your nc textured?


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## vermontpainter

bskerley said:


> I guess my only question here is were the walls one your nc textured?


No. Smooth walls and ceilings.


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## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Jack,
> 
> As Father stated above in his own post, I like you, but...
> 
> Duration has you very confused.
> 
> Its not that difficult to work with. We have done a few nc with it in the past year, and no problems whatsoever.
> 
> I agree that its different. But, if you think about your sequence of statements above, you can mess around and push envelopes with it to the point that its more different than it has to be.
> 
> Put the 3/4 naps away until you have block walls to roll. Duration will sand just fine. You will never skim a whole wall again!


Scott, you know me, i'll never believe that until I can see it. If it doesn't look like a piece of formica on the wall with a reflection just like a piece of smooth formica then you and I are not talking about creating the same finishes. Post it up.


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## bskerley

jack pauhl said:


> We sanded Duration Home Matte today with Abranet Eco and it will smooth it out easily if you can find some. We used 180g today. Other than this stuff, never had any real luck sanding Duration effectively. Sorta balls up and creates these tiny barrels that cling to the walls. There is a name for those barrels but it slipping my mind at the moment.


I love how you have these hard to find items. Where did u find this at?


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## vermontpainter

A glass house with southern exposure on the Lake. If Duration didnt work, it wouldnt work here. It worked. 

Pictures dont show sheen. But I guess you will just have to take me at my word that this was a very high end home, with unforgiving natural light. And we had no issues. For the record, we primed with Promar 400. 

I blogged about this project a couple of times. Nice, high end home. With Duration.


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## bskerley

Well then there has to be some factor that is changing it. I am in AZ. Currently it is hot and dry. This gives me little time to work with it. The day that it was applied we had no a/c in the house so I would assume it was minimum 120 in the house since it was about 111 outside. I talked to my manager at SW today and he finally broke down and told me that he has had more complaints from painters about it that positives. Alot more. Something with this paint is screwed up. I am happy that you guys figured it out but I have been doing this for quite some time and this is the second time I have had and issue with duration and the second time I have used it. 

There are certain parts of the house the look fine but those also have completely different lighting. I could take a picture of those and you would say what am I talking about. But these 4 rooms that just look terrible. I have no doubt that people can have success with the product, but I have been reading more and more and hearing just as much that it creates issues for many people.


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## vermontpainter

Actually, one of the wackiest natural light houses we have done in a while. 
Architects are cool. Check out the awning window placements. I dont have many good "wall" pictures. But, you get the idea. Nice house, nice finish, no issues. 

Primer: Promar 400
Paint: Duration Matte
Sanded in between coats with FCI system. 
Roller: Arroworthy ProLine 3/8" nap


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## vermontpainter

Put a little super zoom on the shadow line above the window caps. Bet no one here has painted that detail before.


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## jack pauhl

bskerley said:


> I love how you have these hard to find items. Where did u find this at?


Actually Mirka is active in getting this stuff more available for us. Our local Tool Supplier (it's a wood workers shop) carries just about every brand of tool and accessory you can imagine. 

I'm meeting with my local Mirka rep next week to get some more goodies (oh boy, can't wait!), i'll ask more specific questions about availability and they're plans for distribution. I agree, it appears a bit difficult to find some of it. Amazon might be worth a shot. This Abranet is no question a total game-changer. 

Abranet has allowed us to re-introduce products we ruled out in the past due to 'not easy to sand'... but now it is. MH ready patch for example. Difficult to sand in comparison to say Crawford Spackling which you can make smooth with the texture of your fingerprints. Now sanding MH is a breeze. Knocks it down like you were sanding Crawfords. Duration is another. 

Some latex primers in the past and bonding primers were difficult to get to powered smooth but not with Abranet. I've put that Abranet to every imaginable thing/product I can get my hands on and its always so much easier than any sandpaper used in the past.

We were wet-sanding our acrylics before for a glass smooth finish now with Abranet wet-sanding isn't needed. Sanded some SW Proclassic wb.alkyd today, piece of cake. You name it, its amazing, really is. Its very "different".


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## TJ Paint

I find it facinating that we discover tenacious issues with things which, on the surface would appear to be not. 

I may be in my own world here but a matte finish, unless a deep base, can be rolled blinfolded and handcuffed and still turn out right. 

What once was a friendly task turns into a voluptuous mystery for us at painttalk to discover it's esoteric pattern...


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## vermontpainter

TJ Paint said:


> I find it facinating that we discover tenacious issues with things which, on the surface would appear to be not.
> 
> I may be in my own world here but a matte finish, unless a deep base, can be rolled blinfolded and handcuffed and still turn out right.
> 
> What once was a friendly task turns into a voluptuous mystery for us at painttalk to discover it's esoteric pattern...


Haha well put. That is why I questioned Jack on his need for a 3/4" nap for load distribution dispersement stability or whatever the term was. I actually find Duration to be pretty user friendly for employees of all different skill levels. Even in deeper bases.


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## jack pauhl

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Man I was with you Jack up to here..........
> 
> I will return to the thread after this post but this one just stopped me.
> 
> To the OP. Flat on the ceilings if you can talk them into it. If it needs sheen, You need to do like the link suggested in Jack's first post. 18" rollers. Two or three guys w 18" rollers if the ceiling is big. Wet edge. Wet edge. Wet edge. Don't let it tack up. After spreading the paint, do the one stroke top to bottom or left to right if it is a ceiling and then stay the heck out of it. Don't go back in it. Nope leave it alone.
> 
> Nobody knows how to paint with oil anymore.
> Same principle though.
> 
> You can fix the wall if all you gotta do is sand it with 100g on the pole sander and put a coat on the right way.
> 
> Anyway. Good thread. Good posts by Jack til ^
> Jack, I'm starting to like you. I think I can learn some things from you.
> The blog is nice.


Thanks, I think. Look, here is the deal with this forum stuff. It's not apples to apples until its presented that way. It never is. So, my posts are from what I've witnessed other painters struggle with, sometimes self included. 

You make me want to make a video with my orbital sander with some 150g on it and show you and Scott what I mean by smooth and how long it takes a 5" orbital sander in a tiny area of a wall to get Duration smooth. Meaning removing roller texture like the OP is talking about. Knocking the tip surface of the texture down is not my thing, that part is easy. It goes back to smooth. Like when you sand a piece of stained wood with sanding sealer on it and you remove the gloss to flat.

But I honestly do not have time to justify my posts in situations like this. If it comes up some time on the job and I have the time, I'll make one.

Duration is only difficult in the sense that if you are trying to produce a glassy smooth tight reflective finish on a wall then its harder to do vs a gallon of some $11 paint which doesn't require any order of rolling or magic touch. Blow n go and BAM! Nice smooth finish. 

Nice to meet you!


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## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> You make me want to make a video with my orbital sander with some 150g on it and show you and Scott what I mean by smooth and how long it takes a 5" orbital sander in a tiny area of a wall to get Duration smooth. Meaning removing roller texture like the OP is talking about.


Jack

I was suggesting that you need to be open to the possibility that running 3/4" naps for Duration would make me want to put an orbital on the wall too. (We never put orbitals on drywall)

I'm just surprised that Duration has you so confused and thrown out of your game. Thats all.


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## bskerley

Again, lets look at the possibility of environment. I used the deep base a while back and didnt have near the issue I am having now. Maybe this is a flaw in the product in regards to the conditions (temperature and humidity) in which it is being applied. When I did the deep base it was completely different conditions. I understand that there should be no issue. I have been in the business for 10+ years. I am just here for an answer or some ideas to fix the problem. This is not a pissing contest. Lets just try to help eachother out and maybe, just maybe, figure out a solution. 

As I stated earlier the manager at my SW store acknowledged that he has had numerous complaints about it. So as most of you now want to say that we must not know what the hell we are doing, I find it hard to believe that this many people dont know how to do there job.


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## vermontpainter

bskerley said:


> Again, lets look at the possibility of environment. I used the deep base a while back and didnt have near the issue I am having now. Maybe this is a flaw in the product in regards to the conditions (temperature and humidity) in which it is being applied. When I did the deep base it was completely different conditions. I understand that there should be no issue. I have been in the business for 10+ years. I am just here for an answer or some ideas to fix the problem. This is not a pissing contest. Lets just try to help eachother out and maybe, just maybe, figure out a solution.
> 
> As I stated earlier the manager at my SW store acknowledged that he has had numerous complaints about it. So as most of you now want to say that we must not know what the hell we are doing, I find it hard to believe that this many people dont know how to do there job.


Has there been enough humidity to stall full cure time? Some of these ultra premiums with quick recoats are actually very slow on the cure. 

How quickly did you come behind the tapers with your primer? That would be the first place I would look. I know how on nc you can get ramrodded into dragging the sprayer in the day after they sand...


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## bskerley

vermontpainter said:


> Has there been enough humidity to stall full cure time? Some of these ultra premiums with quick recoats are actually very slow on the cure.
> 
> How quickly did you come behind the tapers with your primer? That would be the first place I would look. I know how on nc you can get ramrodded into dragging the sprayer in the day after they sand...


Honestly I am not 100% sure but I believe it was about 1-2 days. And the humidity then was probably around 10-15%


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## jack pauhl

For comparison... This is not Duration. This is one continuous single light pass down the wall with a pole sander. Not bad but there is quite a bit of texture still to be sanded. Another single pass would make it fairly smooth.

Duration does not sand like that. Not even close.


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## NEPS.US

I've never done a interior home project with a 3/4 nap. That is ridiculous. 

Some of these production threads about cutting corners and gaining time makes me really wonder what some people are leaving for a finished product. I guess quality standards vary.


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## NEPS.US

This is another JP thread turned into a pro Behr thread. I still think you work for them.


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## bskerley

NEPS.US said:


> I've never done a interior home project with a 3/4 nap. That is ridiculous.
> 
> Some of these production threads about cutting corners and gaining time makes me really wonder what some people are leaving for a finished product. I guess quality standards vary.


Irrelevant. NEXT.


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## jack pauhl

Same photo, cropped for close-up.


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## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> This is another JP thread turned into a pro Behr thread. I still think you work for them.


Have not talked much about that paint in a while. We use such a massive variety of products. 

You being serious about me working for them? They probably wouldn't appreciate me talking about other paints we use.


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## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> I've never done a interior home project with a 3/4 nap. That is ridiculous.
> 
> Some of these production threads about cutting corners and gaining time makes me really wonder what some people are leaving for a finished product. I guess quality standards vary.


A woven 3/4 pro doo z can't be compared to rolling with a 3/4 knit. The pro doo z maintains its smooth finish with more capacity. Quite the opposite of knits.


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## NEPS.US

jack pauhl said:


> Have not talked much about that paint in a while. We use such a massive variety of products.
> 
> You being serious about me working for them? They probably wouldn't appreciate me talking about other paints we use.


 
No ... just busting your chops but I am serious about the 3/4 naps.


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## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> No ... just busting your chops but I am serious about the 3/4 naps.


ah. the rigs are looking nice! I see u had twins. :thumbsup:


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## NEPS.US

bskerley said:


> Irrelevant. NEXT.


Perhap's you should hire Jack to come and show you how to do it. It seems like you have alot of issues with SW paints. Why keep using them?


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## straight_lines

Agreed Neps. If I was having issues I would use another paint so fast it would make my reps head spin. There are a handful of paints that I can say I love, and have made me a lot of money, but if they started sucking tomorrow I would drop them like a possessive girlfriend.


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## TJ Paint

straight_lines said:


> I would drop them like a possessive girlfriend.


They aren't so bad if you are bored... and sometimes are the most passionate.

And this is friday night, nothing is irrelevant


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## tntpainting

I have had problems similar to yours I just sanded the"shadows " and swathed from 3/8 to1/2 and it fixed for me just took 1 more coat always use 1/2 at least


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## jack pauhl

straight_lines said:


> Agreed Neps. If I was having issues I would use another paint so fast it would make my reps head spin. There are a handful of paints that I can say I love, and have made me a lot of money, but if they started sucking tomorrow I would drop them like a possessive girlfriend.


haha thats my position too. Dropped SW long time ago but I work with various contractors so SW paint is always around. Had Duration Home Matte, Super Satin today. Took 4 coats of SuperSatin white to cover a black shoe scuff on a riser today. 4! Four full coats! I just laughed and asked the guy why he puts himself through that.


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## Delta Painting

Never cared much for SW even more so now that they are mostly HO oriented.. And the sales rep are my kids age and know all there is about paint...:jester:


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## Delta Painting

bskerley said:


> . I understand that there should be no issue. I have been in the business for 10+ years. I am just here for an answer or some ideas to fix the problem. This is not a pissing contest. Lets just try to help eachother out and maybe, just maybe, figure out a solution.


That's is one thing I dislike about this forum bunch of over inflated egos with an opinion but no real solution to most problem's..:whistling2:

I would have to agree the environment played a factor in the issues your having but I must also admit Duration and a lot of the SW line are a pain to work with. Take SP for an example the only thing super about it is the price.:blink:

Then you have a line of paint that's is paint primer and caulk all rolled into one..LOL SW is marketing to HO more and more and contractor's are left out in the cold to figure out a lot of issues on there own your lucky the Manager even told you other's are having issues with that line as well.

I wish you luck I have been in the same boat as you the painting industry can make even the most seasoned painter look like a fool from time to time.


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## bskerley

NEPS.US said:


> Perhap's you should hire Jack to come and show you how to do it. It seems like you have alot of issues with SW paints. Why keep using them?


I have one issue with them and this is it. Thanks again.


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## Mike's QP

Have you done any more work there yet to try and fix it? Why not get a gallon of another matte product, roll out one wall and see if it works or not, atleast you wont be out too much $$ on the test wall, and if it works you can tell your rep and get your money back for the duration, maybe labor covered too. That would be my next route.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> if they started sucking tomorrow I would drop them like a possessive girlfriend.


Perfect analogy.


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## ewingpainting.net

bskerley said:


> Irrelevant. NEXT.


I hope to see if you tried any of the recommendations or what was the cure. 

BTW My issue I was having was not with Duration, however it was very similar to your issue. I even had the paint manufacture formulator come out and take a look.


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## NEPS.US

bskerley said:


> I have one issue with them and this is it. Thanks again.


You have participated in two theads on painttalk and you have started both of them. Both of them are you having issues with SW paints.


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## bskerley

Mike's QP said:


> Have you done any more work there yet to try and fix it? Why not get a gallon of another matte product, roll out one wall and see if it works or not, atleast you wont be out too much $$ on the test wall, and if it works you can tell your rep and get your money back for the duration, maybe labor covered too. That would be my next route.


I like this idea. Hadnt thought about it yet. My mind has been on so many different ways to fix this problem that I have not been thinking about the most simple solutions I think. THANKS!


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## bskerley

NEPS.US said:


> You have participated in two theads on painttalk and you have started both of them. Both of them are you haveing issues with SW paints.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonytwotime 
You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.

Smart Guy^^


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## TJ Paint

bskerley said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tonytwotime
> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.
> 
> Smart Guy^^


I think neps knows what the hell hes doing.


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## sagebrush123

I cannot resist partaking in this thread, as I have been painting for sometime now.

my first take is that much like the original poster is stating, maybe we can help each other. it is not a matter of esoteric proportions...it seems to show up as EGO.

I have my own to struggle with, but I do notice alot of general pissing contests....and I have engaged in this too, but realize I don't have a protruding one...haha... nor much pee.

anyway. what makes me an expert?

started rolling walls in 1990.

I looked at the photos of your duration issue. 

I would NEVER start skimming these walls for the life of me.

too much thinking is going on here-not too say that thinking is not of importance.....

if the flat worked for the ceilings....why not use the flat on the walls?

I have not had trouble with Duration, but I understand what I think you are pointing out in your photo. 

I call it "movement in the painted wall".....and no matter how I would lay it off..it still was not a continuous smooth. I don't think your battle is a texture pattern....I would not be breaking out the sander.

I can't wait to hear what happens with your project. so do come back to say, please.

also vermont painter- the detail in the painted wood trim pieces is from the 1920's. maybe replicated to match the good 'ol days carpentry. is this true from the house you worked on?


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## bskerley

It looks like we have found the solution. Sanding all walls with 100 grit, credit where it is due, and rolling with Cashmere flat. Love that the customer is now ok with flat. That could have take care of this issue a while ago. Anyway seems to be working. Let you know for sure in a day or 2


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## bskerley

It is mostly working, I had to go ahead and re-skim 2 walls and sand and there is still something showing up. Alot of the issue now seems to be shadows, which i have to show the customer on every room where it is coming from. But it seems like there is going to be an end in sight. 

Now, Sherwin, I have them agreeeing to take care of all the paint that i need to fix it and they are telling me to keep my hours. Has anyone actually got a check from them for hours or are they just going to demo paint for the next job?


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## Mike's QP

It coulda been wavy sheetrock!


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## bskerley

There are parts where I can tell the dw guys screwed **** up. You can see shadows of a couple joints. But I can tell you 100% for sure that a large portion of the problem was the paint. It is such a weird product and it really does just show every single section rolled. Lesson leared, the hard way.


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## BreatheEasyHP

Glad to hear you got it [mostly] fixed.

Had the Duration sat on the wall for more than a week or two? Acrylics get easier to sand after they cure for a while. I wonder if JP has sanded 30 day old Duration? (how useful is that anyways?)

I had a similar problem recently and was able to easily see texture differences in the stipple by getting my face close and looking to the side.


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## Paradigmzz

bskerley said:


> It is mostly working, I had to go ahead and re-skim 2 walls and sand and there is still something showing up. Alot of the issue now seems to be shadows, which i have to show the customer on every room where it is coming from. But it seems like there is going to be an end in sight.
> 
> Now, Sherwin, I have them agreeeing to take care of all the paint that i need to fix it and they are telling me to keep my hours. Has anyone actually got a check from them for hours or are they just going to demo paint for the next job?


Yes they will pay for your time and material. Track it and bill them. Done it before and yes they do cut you a check.


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## Backroll

Mike's QP said:


> Do you think the backrolling of the highbuild primer is making the effect? The inconsistency in the roller stipple?


I just returned 2 gallons of it on a deep brown, and they gave me my money back. I'll never use it again, it was like painting with suede.
There's no point for it anyways, no such thing as a washabable flat.
Also, it was really chunky. Rep nonchalantly told me to strain it. For that
price, I'm not straining every gallon. Go with Lifemaster if you need a low voc. That's what I ended up rolling over the duration, looks great.


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## Delta Painting

I think most if not all SW products are over priced crap. There stores are filled with young kids that don't know squat after reading the meeting with the CEO of SW thread dunno why contractors keep using there lines...


OP: I glad you got this issue kind sorta sorted out...


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## alertchief

Having been a long time SW employee I have seen this numerous times. Even had it happen on my own home with satin in a red. Every time I dipped for more paint the wet edge I rolled back into ended up leaving what appeared to be a light sheen stripe. It's almost as if the paint is creating an internal fracture in appearance. I double primed and used color accents and redid it. If you want to see it in person go into your local store and check out the orange wall from a 45 degree angle. Never sold that product again...maybe the new zero voc pro mar 200 is better. Will never use this product again....


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## jonathanthepainter

When you sprayed the second coat the atomization of the material will cause a slight color change. Why b&r first and s&br second coat? We normally s&br primer and first coat then b&r final after casework is installed. Another possibility is too short nap , w-3/8 over high build primer too much build for short nap to cover, we use 3/4.


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## RaleighPainter

jonathanthepainter said:


> When you sprayed the second coat the atomization of the material will cause a slight color change. Why b&r first and s&br second coat? We normally s&br primer and first coat then b&r final after casework is installed. Another possibility is too short nap , w-3/8 over high build primer too much build for short nap to cover, we use 3/4.


You use a 3/4 inch nap on smooth walls? How does that look?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Julian&co said:


> How does that look?


I'm pretty sure it looks like sh!t


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## TJ Paint

He's talking about using a 3/4 backrolling hibuild primer, yes?


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## Always Painting

Have you tried making your paint stipple go all in one direction with your roller?


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## Steve Richards

Seems to me like a lot more people come in here with SW issues of one kind or other, than post about BM problems.

Maybe that's just a biased observation on my part.


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## [email protected]

bskerley said:


> Has anyone actually got a check from them for hours ...?


Yep.


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## [email protected]

alertchief said:


> Having been a long time SW employee I have seen this numerous times. Even had it happen on my own home with satin in a red. Every time I dipped for more paint the wet edge I rolled back into ended up leaving what appeared to be a light sheen stripe. It's almost as if the paint is creating an internal fracture in appearance. I double primed and used color accents and redid it. If you want to see it in person go into your local store and check out the orange wall from a 45 degree angle. Never sold that product again...maybe the new zero voc pro mar 200 is better. Will never use this product again....


Good to see you on the forum Dave. Even though it's been over a year since you signed on and I never seen your INTRO, Welcome aboard.


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## TJ Paint

Steve Richards said:


> Seems to me like a lot more people come in here with SW issues of one kind or other, than post about BM problems.
> 
> Maybe that's just a biased observation on my part.


way to be unfair and biased Steve, jeez. 

At least your not a ..., nevermind...


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## Steve Richards

TJ Paint said:


> At least your not a ..., nevermind...


hmmmmmmmmm....:blink:

At least I'm not a complainer? 

yeah...that must be it.


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