# Customers asking to blatantly break the lead laws.



## Epoxy Pro

We pretty much have 2 customers asking to blatantly break the lead laws. I have said no way to both HO's, I told them the fines are a lot more than the job is worth.

One HO even said the other 3 estimates he got the painters said don't worry about the lead paint, it's not as bad for people as the state makes it out. 

I told the HO to call our referrals and he will see we deal with lead the right way. As for us being dang near 10k higher it kind of shows the other painter has no clue about lead paint.

In the end I don't think we will land these 2 jobs. 1 I'm definitely passing on the other who knows.

Man I really wish the EPA and states would crack down on HO's hiring non certified or licensed contractors.


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## premierpainter

Why does a house that has Lead paint justify a $10,000 up charge? It does not cost that much ore than a regular house. 
I'm confused.


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## Epoxy Pro

premierpainter said:


> Why does a house that has Lead paint justify a $10,000 up charge? It does not cost that much ore than a regular house.
> I'm confused.


Decent size house with lots of scraping. Full oil prime and 2 coats finish. I know it's not a week long job, more like a 25-35 day job. Add a crew and every thing else you need for lead and it drastically increases the price.


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## epretot

Yep. This verifies the accuracy of how government over-reach effects small business.

You just have to find the people who will pay. You seem to have already achieved that. You do plenty of RRP work right? Keep on keeping on. Its a nice niche you carved out.


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## Epoxy Pro

epretot said:


> Yep. This verifies the accuracy of how government over-reach effects small business.
> 
> You just have to find the people who will pay. You seem to have already achieved that. You do plenty of RRP work right? Keep on keeping on. Its a nice niche you carved out.


We are not doing deleting this year. No calls yet and our other seduced work leave little time for us to take on a lead job. In fact we just passed on 5 lead jobs.


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## Gough

cdpainting said:


> We are not doing deleting this year. No calls yet and our other seduced work leave little time for us to take on a lead job. In fact we just passed on 5 lead jobs.


CD, either you're going above and beyond in closing the sales...or this is an AutoCorrect Fail.


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## SemiproJohn

Hmm.......seduced work. Is that anything like the casting couch?


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## Epoxy Pro

Gough said:


> CD, either you're going above and beyond in closing the sales...or this is an AutoCorrect Fail.


This is why I don't like using my phone to post on here. Damn auto correct.
Seduced= Schedule.
Deleted= Deleading

What happened to the edit function?


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## Oden

CD does seem to have found a little niche. Not for nothing. Maybe his lead up charges are limiting him unintentionally even to people who feel better about spending more? The kind of customers you all want? I don't know. 

If some government reg causes me to get charged 10 grand more. Chit. Live free or die baby. Lol
I wouldn't have the work done. Or we are doing it fast and pleading ignorance. And I doubt my sentiment is a unique one.


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## Epoxy Pro

Oden said:


> CD does seem to have found a little niche. Not for nothing. Maybe his lead up charges are limiting him unintentionally even to people who feel better about spending more? The kind of customers you all want? I don't know.
> 
> If some government reg causes me to get charged 10 grand more. Chit. Live free or die baby. Lol
> I wouldn't have the work done. Or we are doing it fast and pleading ignorance. And I doubt my sentiment is a unique one.


I know who else bid and neither mentioned lead or are certified/licensed so right there they will undercut.

Think about this. Around here a crew of 4 we will say, here is quick break down for our last delead material cost. Approx 30 days.

Tyvek suits lead approved $13.99 ea 60 suits $839.40 (2 suits per day according to the RRP laws, if you take more breaks more suits are needed).

Festool 40 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
Festool 80 grit 3 box 50 $42.99 ea $128.97
Festool 100 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
Paint shaver diamond blades 1 set $299.99
Festool CT26 hepa filter $99.99
Festool CT26 bags 4 boxes of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
Festool CT48 hepa filter $99.99
Festool CT48 bags 4 box of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
Trash bags 2 box 25 $19.99 ea $39.98
Plastic 1 400' roll $49.99
Trash run to dump $150.00

Just about $2,500 for some materials let alone primer, paints, there is another grand so $3,500 now and still climbing fast., labor needs to be figured in as well.

I can keep going but you see how much materials start costing. So yes 10k more for lead is realistic.


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## straight_lines

If you were removing non lead paint the only thing you would save would be non sanding related things like the suits and plastic right? Sounds like the owners don't want what you are selling. Make it clear that you are removing all the old coatings. That could cost close to the differences in price.


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## slinger58

So the question seems to be are you removing all the existing coatings because they're lead based or because that's what the owner wants?


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## slinger58

Oden said:


> CD does seem to have found a little niche. Not for nothing. Maybe his lead up charges are limiting him unintentionally even to people who feel better about spending more? The kind of customers you all want? I don't know.
> 
> If some government reg causes me to get charged 10 grand more. Chit. Live free or die baby. Lol
> I wouldn't have the work done. Or we are doing it fast and pleading ignorance. And I doubt my sentiment is a unique one.



If this thread was in the PZ, I'd have to challenge you on that post. But it's not so I won't.


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## CApainter

slinger58 said:


> So the question seems to be are you removing all the existing coatings because they're lead based or because that's what the owner wants?


Interesting point. Do all existing lead painted houses need complete removal? Personally, I don't think so. 

I've been coordinating several projects related to lead encapsulation, and have been monitored by a work place health and safety representative. Hardly any impact to personnel, or workers, and minimal hazardous waste disposal with a quick project close out.

So, is it necessary to remove all of the existing lead paint from every lead related job?


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## allaboutfun

cdpainting said:


> I know who else bid and neither mentioned lead or are certified/licensed so right there they will undercut.
> 
> Think about this. Around here a crew of 4 we will say, here is quick break down for our last delead material cost. Approx 30 days.
> 
> Tyvek suits lead approved $13.99 ea 60 suits $839.40 (2 suits per day according to the RRP laws, if you take more breaks more suits are needed).
> 
> Festool 40 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
> Festool 80 grit 3 box 50 $42.99 ea $128.97
> Festool 100 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
> Paint shaver diamond blades 1 set $299.99
> Festool CT26 hepa filter $99.99
> Festool CT26 bags 4 boxes of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
> Festool CT48 hepa filter $99.99
> Festool CT48 bags 4 box of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
> Trash bags 2 box 25 $19.99 ea $39.98
> Plastic 1 400' roll $49.99
> Trash run to dump $150.00
> 
> Just about $2,500 for some materials let alone primer, paints, there is another grand so $3,500 now and still climbing fast., labor needs to be figured in as well.
> 
> I can keep going but you see how much materials start costing. So yes 10k more for lead is realistic.


Looks like you're bidding abatement not interim control....that might explain the bid difference and the owners reaction.


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## Gough

cdpainting said:


> I know who else bid and neither mentioned lead or are certified/licensed so right there they will undercut.
> 
> Think about this. Around here a crew of 4 we will say, here is quick break down for our last delead material cost. Approx 30 days.
> 
> Tyvek suits lead approved $13.99 ea 60 suits $839.40 (2 suits per day according to the RRP laws, if you take more breaks more suits are needed).
> 
> Festool 40 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
> Festool 80 grit 3 box 50 $42.99 ea $128.97
> Festool 100 grit 5 box 50 $42.99 ea $214.95
> Paint shaver diamond blades 1 set $299.99
> Festool CT26 hepa filter $99.99
> Festool CT26 bags 4 boxes of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
> Festool CT48 hepa filter $99.99
> Festool CT48 bags 4 box of 5 $35.99 ea $179.95
> Trash bags 2 box 25 $19.99 ea $39.98
> Plastic 1 400' roll $49.99
> Trash run to dump $150.00
> 
> Just about $2,500 for some materials let alone primer, paints, there is another grand so $3,500 now and still climbing fast., labor needs to be figured in as well.
> 
> I can keep going but you see how much materials start costing. So yes 10k more for lead is realistic.


Are Tyvek suits required by the MA version of RRP? I know they're not in the federal version.


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## daArch

the good news is that there are still more than a few folks who do want abatement for personal and resale reasons.

This part of the country is full of educated, aware, and sometimes wealthy HO's who understand the real dangers of lead and diminished re-sale value as a result. Many also do not want soil near their homes unsafe for their tomatoes and other home grown veggies they grow for family nourishment. 

Not EVERY HO is motivated to grind down to orig wood or have the home resided, but I am always amazed at how many are thoroughly motivated to bite that bullet.

Yes, and these are dyed in the wool New England Yankees. 

Lead is a well known danger and accepted fact by many in these parts.


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## MKap

CD you are justified charging 10k more for lead work. I am less than 90 miles south of you in the richest of areas, and bluest of all states. 
As much as your posts make me
question why you work for some of these people (not so much rrp work),
But You seem to have learned the rrp regulations and offer a quality service that abides by the laws. 
Premier painter has a different business model than you. He has subs who suck the lead as much as the vacuums do. I saw a recent post he made say his business does 7+ million a year? He had no business asking a small business such as yourself why the cost are what they are. He doesn't have employees. He has subs. Period. No comparison. 
Keep doing what you do. You know the costs involved. 
Bottom line, you don't want to work for the people who don't want to pay for what you need to do the right way. 

Premier painter. 
Can you honestly say every painter of your subs is a legal citizen of the United States? - All subs abide by to code to meet RRP regulations during renovation/painting procedures?
If "legal", do they follow the letter of the lead law as CD does, or tries to do? Do you even know how much it cost for the difference to lead work to regular painting work anymore ? You seem to be able to strip,sand, prime and paint a house faster than anyone can even realize the cost myself included). Then say it's expected. 
If you say they do, without cutting corners, I call BS. No American citizen works as hard as your production rates claim to be. You have legal subs with illegal employees. So technically they are not your problem or responsibility. your legitimate and the most productive on paint talk...yet,.,condemn everyone else for not having an abundance of illegal or cheap labor. 

Btw who tf are you to question a legitimate small business??? Since you seem to be the all powering OZ on RRP work. 

You are in a separate tax bracket based on your posts. 










T


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## Epoxy Pro

Gough said:


> Are Tyvek suits required by the MA version of RRP? I know they're not in the federal version.


Tyvek is the brand we use. These are RRP approved the label says so. lol.


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## Epoxy Pro

MKap said:


> CD you are justified charging 10k more for lead work. I am less than 90 miles south of you in the richest of areas, and bluest of all states.
> As much as your posts make me
> question why you work for some of these people (not so much rrp work),
> But You seem to have learned the rrp regulations and offer a quality service that abides by the laws.
> Premier painter has a different business model than you. He has subs who suck the lead as much as the vacuums do. I saw a recent post he made say his business does 7+ million a year? He had no business asking a small business such as yourself why the cost are what they are. He doesn't have employees. He has subs. Period. No comparison.
> Keep doing what you do. You know the costs involved.
> Bottom line, you don't want to work for the people who don't want to pay for what you need to do the right way.
> 
> Premier painter.
> Can you honestly say every painter of your subs is a legal citizen of the United States? - All subs abide by to code to meet RRP regulations during renovation/painting procedures?
> If "legal", do they follow the letter of the lead law as CD does, or tries to do? Do you even know how much it cost for the difference to lead work to regular painting work anymore ? You seem to be able to strip,sand, prime and paint a house faster than anyone can even realize the cost myself included). Then say it's expected.
> If you say they do, without cutting corners, I call BS. No American citizen works as hard as your production rates claim to be. You have legal subs with illegal employees. So technically they are not your problem or responsibility. your legitimate and the most productive on paint talk...yet,.,condemn everyone else for not having an abundance of illegal or cheap labor.
> 
> Btw who tf are you to question a legitimate small business??? Since you seem to be the all powering OZ on RRP work.
> 
> You are in a separate tax bracket based on your posts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T


Same here. Some times we have no choice. Most seem normal until they either get the estimates or we start the work. We have wannabe rich snobs around here.


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## premierpainter

MKap. First, we do not do $7 million per year in sales. Second, all of the guys that work for us are legal green card holding Hispanic workers. They all have legit businesses and have families that go to our public schools. You are making a lot of assumptions in your post. 

We do all RRP jobs to the letter of the law. I'm sorry that your workers are not skilled enough to sand as fast as ours.... Not my problem, that's your problem. We have a method of sanding that I have used for a long time. Each guy is trained on how said method is done. They work hard all day, every day. 

We are working at 30 Bank of America's right now. They have done background checks on every person working there. I would think that an illegal would have a hard time passing that background check. 

Before you cast stones on a public forum, you might want to know what your throwing those stones at. All I asked is how do you justify up charging $10k for a lead job. In fact he still has not answered my question. $2500 in sandpaper and filters is not $10k. I was actually trying to show CD that he is pricing himself out of a lot of jobs by doing this. 

Each his own.


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## premierpainter

Also, why don't you drive down here and watch us work. I know that we can teach you something, T. 

You are right about one thing- no American citizen works as hard as Hispanic workers. I have been down that road, hiring friends and "Americans". They were putting in 5 hours of work on an 8 hour day. My subs work 10-12 hours a day all daylong. 

Not me, I work 35-40 hours per week, have a salesman who sells our jobs, I take the entire winter off and go on 4 vacations per year. Who is doing something wrong? Maybe, T, you are.


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## Epoxy Pro

premierpainter said:


> MKap. First, we do not do $7 million per year in sales. Second, all of the guys that work for us are legal green card holding Hispanic workers. They all have legit businesses and have families that go to our public schools. You are making a lot of assumptions in your post.
> 
> We do all RRP jobs to the letter of the law. I'm sorry that your workers are not skilled enough to sand as fast as ours.... Not my problem, that's your problem. We have a method of sanding that I have used for a long time. Each guy is trained on how said method is done. They work hard all day, every day.
> 
> We are working at 30 Bank of America's right now. They have done background checks on every person working there. I would think that an illegal would have a hard time passing that background check.
> 
> Before you cast stones on a public forum, you might want to know what your throwing those stones at. All I asked is how do you justify up charging $10k for a lead job. In fact he still has not answered my question. $2500 in sandpaper and filters is not $10k. I was actually trying to show CD that he is pricing himself out of a lot of jobs by doing this.
> 
> Each his own.


If you compare our prices to another legit painting co doing RRP we are right there with 2 other companies price wise. 

You know the labor involved in stripping homes. No we do not have your system (which seems to be real good) We were still fine tuning how we stripped RRP.

Shaving the paint needs to be back sanded, some times 2-4 times to get it smooth again.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

I would highly doubt CD Painting is, "up charging" 10k. Not sure that's the appropriate term. I'd wager to guess his rates and prices are based on total costs involved, just like everyone else here. 

FWIW, I don't think any reputable contractor needs to, "justify", their rates. They are what they are. You either like em and elect to move forward, or you move on.


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## premierpainter

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I would highly doubt CD Painting is, "up charging" 10k. Not sure that's the appropriate term. I'd wager to guess his rates and prices are based on total costs involved, just like everyone else here. FWIW, I don't think any reputable contractor needs to, "justify", their rates. They are what they are. You either like em and elect to move forward, or you move on.


 couldn't agree more.


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## robladd

$10,000+ is for removal compared to $10,000- for repair. Abatement pricing is much more why do it if RRP states otherwise.


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## straight_lines

I found discussing lead and stuff we have to do to contain it is not a popular subject with 90% of the people we work for. Its something I learned to be very careful how I approach. Most hear this and think this is going to cost me more money. In fact mostly just giving them the RRP book and letting them know the government requires that I do so. 

We follow the rules I just don't burden a client with all that nonsense.


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## thinkpainting/nick

I absolutely tell them and it is going to cost more money. Otherwise there's no way I canjustisfy why I'm 30-50 percent higher than the nitwits blasting peeling paint off with a pressure washer or just giving a quick hand sand to peeling paint. I let them know il 100 percent legal and we do the work acceding to the regulations .

I don't like it and I'm not a fan of regulations but around here if you are legit and put job signs up, have lettered vehicles they come gunning for you. If your illegal you got no worries.


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## DunriteNJ

Theres several companies here in NJ who sand/strip houses

Its fairly easy if you know what your doing

the ones who don't around here are considered inferior 

The ones who do are considered the Pros


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## premierpainter

DunriteNJ said:


> Theres several companies here in NJ who sand/strip houses Its fairly easy if you know what your doing the ones who don't around here are considered inferior The ones who do are considered the Pros


Monks and Rutgers are two that do what we do


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## DunriteNJ

premierpainter said:


> Monks and Rutgers are two that do what we do


Very Familiar with both.lol

There are others but they are at the forefront

i have guys who've worked for both


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## premierpainter

Rutgers used to buy our coating system, then we fired him 
Monks is a force for sure


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## DunriteNJ

Ive heard Monks has 300 employees- Rutgers back in its heyday had that

There are others who have the sanding process down pat-most started with Rutgers

Ive been hired out to sand down houses by other contractors because they have no clue about the lead removal process


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## Oden

premierpainter said:


> Also, why don't you drive down here and watch us work. I know that we can teach you something, T. You are right about one thing- no American citizen works as hard as Hispanic workers. I have been down that road, hiring friends and "Americans". They were putting in 5 hours of work on an 8 hour day. My subs work 10-12 hours a day all daylong. Not me, I work 35-40 hours per week, have a salesman who sells our jobs, I take the entire winter off and go on 4 vacations per year. Who is doing something wrong? Maybe, T, you are.


' no American citizen works as hard as Hispanic workers'

Douce bag....l


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## Boco

Oden said:


> ' no American citizen works as hard as Hispanic workers'
> 
> Douce bag....l


:thumbup: The first time I see one of your workers cutting in an 8ft ceiling of the off the floor. I might agree with you. Work smarter not harder.


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## Gough

Boco said:


> :thumbup: The first time I see one of your workers cutting in an 8ft ceiling of the off the floor. I might agree with you. Work smarter not harder.


The guys we've worked around can stand on a five and walk it along a wall at a brisk pace while they're taping or painting. Nine-foot ceilings? Not a problem, they just stack on another five.


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## premierpainter

Douce bag?? Is that a good thing?


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## Gough

premierpainter said:


> Douce bag?? Is that a good thing?


Sorry, Kev, I think that was just a typo for "Deuce Bag". I'm not really familiar with it, but I've heard it's a term of admiration. That's how it was explained to me, anyway.

No?


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## Oden

premierpainter said:


> Douce bag?? Is that a good thing?


Yes.
Lol


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## ExcelPaintingCo

I'd rather price myself out of a job, than lower my prices $10k, to be competitive with hacks. More jobs will come in at your price. It's not worth a second thought.


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## Gough

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I'd rather price myself out of a job, than lower my prices $10k, to be competitive with hacks. More jobs will come in at your price. It's not worth a second thought.


I think that $10K difference is due to a lot more than the LBP issue. It may be much more a result of the overall quality of work: meticulous prep including sanding (not just scraping), using an actual primer, quality materials, etc... the list goes on and on. 

After having similar things happen to us, we focused on prequalifying potential clients out of the gate. Once in a while, one still gets through the net and it is frustrating.


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## DunriteNJ

Gough said:


> I think that $10K difference is due to a lot more than the LBP issue. It may be much more a result of the overall quality of work: meticulous prep including sanding (not just scraping), using an actual primer, quality materials, etc... the list goes on and on.
> 
> After having similar things happen to us, we focused on prequalifying potential clients out of the gate. Once in a while, one still gets through the net and it is frustrating.


Alot depends on your market

How many companies in your area perform LP removal services

Around here there are quite a few companies who do this

You would get laughed at if you tacked on 10k here

Other places this may be more of a speciallty and you could probably command whatever you want


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Gough said:


> I think that $10K difference is due to a lot more than the LBP issue. It may be much more a result of the overall quality of work: meticulous prep including sanding (not just scraping), using an actual primer, quality materials, etc... the list goes on and on. After having similar things happen to us, we focused on prequalifying potential clients out of the gate. Once in a while, one still gets through the net and it is frustrating.


 I agree about it possibly being about more than RRP. Based on the numbers provided by CD: 4 person crew X 30 days = $48,000 @$50/hr + 15% materials = $55,200 total bid. $10k < 20% of the total job. That's not a huge amount to be over vs. other guys who are saying RRP laws don't need to be followed. Who knows what other corners they are willing to cut to achieve their low ball price. I would assume that if they are willing to cut the RRP corner, then just about everything else is fair game as well.


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## Gough

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I agree about it possibly being about more than RRP. Based on the numbers provided by CD: 4 person crew X 30 days = $48,000 @$50/hr + 15% materials = $55,200 total bid. $10k < 20% of the total job. That's not a huge amount to be over vs. other guys who are saying RRP laws don't need to be followed. Who knows what other corners they are willing to cut to achieve their low ball price. I would assume that if they are willing to cut the RRP corner, then just about everything else is fair game as well.


We've been well past that percentage on non-RRP jobs, plenty of times.


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## DunriteNJ

cdpainting said:


> Decent size house with lots of scraping. Full oil prime and 2 coats finish. I know it's not a week long job, more like a 25-35 day job. Add a crew and every thing else you need for lead and it drastically increases the price.


how bigs the house?

25-35 days??

I realize if you dont sand/strip often it would take longer but that seems like alot of labor your accounting for


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## Picky_Painter

I am of the mind set that this Lead thing is nothing more than a money maker for the State.

First off for me to be Lead Cert, its $2,000 out of pocket lasts 2 years.

Second my customers dont care.

Third, my customers arent going to pay the premium for it either..

and forth, if your kids are chewing on the wood work, you have bigger problems than lead based paint.

Seems to me like another way the Govt is using its absolute authority and unlimited resources to micromanage and further reduce the freedoms of both home owners and contractors.

Oh and up here... Lead = hazardous waste permit, ect... Talk about freaking out the neighbors when you cocoon the house and everyone is wearing moon suits...

It really amazes me that man kind made it out of the 20th century alive...


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## slinger58

Picky_Painter said:


> I am of the mind set that this Lead thing is nothing more than a money maker for the State.
> 
> First off for me to be Lead Cert, its $2,000 out of pocket lasts 2 years.
> 
> Second my customers dont care.
> 
> Third, my customers arent going to pay the premium for it either..
> 
> and forth, if your kids are chewing on the wood work, you have bigger problems than lead based paint.
> 
> Seems to me like another way the Govt is using its absolute authority and unlimited resources to micromanage and further reduce the freedoms of both home owners and contractors.
> 
> Oh and up here... Lead = hazardous waste permit, ect... Talk about freaking out the neighbors when you cocoon the house and everyone is wearing moon suits...
> 
> It really amazes me that man kind made it out of the 20th century alive...


Where is "up here"?


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## Epoxy Pro

DunriteNJ said:


> how bigs the house?
> 
> 25-35 days??
> 
> I realize if you dont sand/strip often it would take longer but that seems like alot of labor your accounting for


One house is close to 6k sqft with 64 shutters, wooden sashes and dental moldings.


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## DrakeB

Picky_Painter said:


> and forth, if your kids are chewing on the wood work, you have bigger problems than lead based paint.


It's maybe time to educate yourself about the reality of the dangers of lead. Eating paint flakes isn't the only concern, and if you think kids don't chew on everything they can get their mouths around (and that there's something wrong with that, rather than that it's a natural process called "teething") you must not have ever had kids.


Edit: Not that I'm defending all of the rather insane lead laws, nor do I believe in a nanny government. This statement is just a bit silly.


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## AV Painting

You have to know when to sell your premium service and when not to. If someone just wants it painted, scrape it and paint it. Put plastic down and wear suits and you're good to go. Why would you need 3 different grit festool sandpaper? Sand it with 60 and be done with it. That's cool you want to do restoration level work. Not cool if you're trying to sell it to someone that isn't interested.


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## AV Painting

I like bidding my base price so they see I'm competitive, then optioning full strips as a line item.


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## chrisn

AV Painting said:


> You have to know when to sell your premium service and when not to. If someone just wants it painted, scrape it and paint it. Put plastic down and wear suits and you're good to go. Why would you need 3 different grit festool sandpaper? Sand it with 60 and be done with it. That's cool you want to do restoration level work. Not cool if you're trying to sell it to someone that isn't interested.


is this even required? I can't remember, having done 0 jobs with my fancy lead certification


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## Gough

chrisn said:


> is this even required? I can't remember, having done 0 jobs with my fancy lead certification


No, suits are not required for RRP if you're in a state that's part of the federal program. For states with their own version, they might be.

OSHA 1026.62 may be a different story....


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## Seth The Painter

Amen brother. Oden hit it out of the park. When it's lead I bid it like a normal exterior then I add 25%.


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## Seth The Painter

Oden said:


> ' no American citizen works as hard as Hispanic workers'
> 
> Douce bag....l


Come work with me then you would be suprised!


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## johnnyb

cdpainting said:


> ...
> 
> Man I really wish the EPA and states would crack down on HO's hiring non certified or licensed contractors.


South Florida has been out of control with unlicensed work, I don't how well they will enforce this, but it's a start.

https://www.ci.miramar.fl.us/development/docs/Building/WARNINGOwnerBuilder.pdf

Hopefully if other areas haven't adopted this yet they will.

What's everyones thoughts of me showing this to potential clients, or at least mentioning it? Do you guys feel it would make me seem as if I'm trying to intimidate them?

In my area people aren't even aware that hiring uncertified contractors not only equates to poor craftsmanship, but it ruins the prices for legit operating businesses.

I feel I live in a land of unlicensed hacks. Up till this point I just roll my eyes when I pass some work that's obviously unlicensed, I feel too out of place calling it in. Anyone have thoughts on this as well?


----------



## SemiproJohn

johnnyb said:


> South Florida has been out of control with unlicensed work, I don't how well they will enforce this, but it's a start.
> 
> https://www.ci.miramar.fl.us/development/docs/Building/WARNINGOwnerBuilder.pdf
> 
> Hopefully if other areas haven't adopted this yet they will.
> 
> What's everyones thoughts of me showing this to potential clients, or at least mentioning it? Do you guys feel it would make me seem as if I'm trying to intimidate them?
> 
> In my area people aren't even aware that hiring uncertified contractors not only equates to poor craftsmanship, but it ruins the prices for legit operating businesses.
> 
> I feel I live in a land of unlicensed hacks. Up till this point I just roll my eyes when I pass some work that's obviously unlicensed, I feel too out of place calling it in. Anyone have thoughts on this as well?


I would not show this information to potential clients. You do not have to be a painting "contractor" to legally operate a painting "business" or "company" in many counties in Florida. At least as far as residential painting is concerned. I am not sure about necessary requirements to take on commercial work.

An occupational license from the county in which you live (and sometimes from the city within that county as well), liability insurance, and proof of workman's compensation or exemption from workman's compensation (if you are a sole proprietor/employee) are all that are necessary. Well, that and proof that you are a paying corporation or LLC that can be found with a computer search on www.sunbiz.org.

There are many hacks here. Yet there are many legal painters as well. I usually inform potential customers that I am legal and have a copy of the necessary papers with me if they wish to see them. None so far have asked to.

I would think that in this day and age, most people are aware of the unlicensed and/or illegal worker problem that exists in our country.


----------



## johnnyb

SemiproJohn said:


> An occupational license from the county in which you live (and sometimes from the city within that county as well), liability insurance, and proof of workman's compensation or exemption from workman's compensation (if you are a sole proprietor/employee) are all that are necessary. Well, that and proof that you are a paying corporation or LLC that can be found with a computer search on www.sunbiz.org.


You are correct that the DBPR in Tallahassee does not require any licenses for painting in the State. Problem is, in my county, there is no business tax receipt(btr) for painting. (which they renamed our occup. lic. years ago).

I do exterior cleaning, and hold btr's for what I clean, and had many clients ask if I could reseal/stain/paint certain small jobs after I was done. Mainly residential, or light commercial jobs, I thought the same of why need a painting contractor for <$500 job?

County I live in is so awesome, you need to have a painting contractors license to paint a mailbox for a client, which I can't get without 5 years under a certified painting contractor. Luckily the GC I worked for is adding me as sub for them in the mean time.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ZTVWd-X8A&sig2=3GxnKFkE56iuS6to-W3VvQ&cad=rja

Not trying to derail the thread, just letting anyone else know in Palm Beach County how goofy the rules are, back to Lead Laws :thumbsup:


----------



## thinkpainting/nick

Picky_Painter said:


> I am of the mind set that this Lead thing is nothing more than a money maker for the State.
> 
> First off for me to be Lead Cert, its $2,000 out of pocket lasts 2 years.
> 
> Second my customers dont care.
> 
> Third, my customers arent going to pay the premium for it either..
> 
> and forth, if your kids are chewing on the wood work, you have bigger problems than lead based paint.
> 
> Seems to me like another way the Govt is using its absolute authority and unlimited resources to micromanage and further reduce the freedoms of both home owners and contractors.
> 
> Oh and up here... Lead = hazardous waste permit, ect... Talk about freaking out the neighbors when you cocoon the house and everyone is wearing moon suits...
> 
> It really amazes me that man kind made it out of the 20th century alive...


Add to that so long as you are illegal or post no job signs , vehicles not lettered you can do whatever you want. I"M called by the state RRP nazis every time we work in a older house. Why because my job sign is up my van is lettered and we wear company logo shirts. In the states eyes that means we have money they want more of it. Come here illegally buy a van do whatever you want no worries . I see it everyday:yes:


----------



## SemiproJohn

johnnyb said:


> You are correct that the DBPR in Tallahassee does not require any licenses for painting in the State. Problem is, in my county, there is no business tax receipt(btr) for painting. (which they renamed our occup. lic. years ago).
> 
> I do exterior cleaning, and hold btr's for what I clean, and had many clients ask if I could reseal/stain/paint certain small jobs after I was done. Mainly residential, or light commercial jobs, I thought the same of why need a painting contractor for <$500 job?
> 
> County I live in is so awesome, you need to have a painting contractors license to paint a mailbox for a client, which I can't get without 5 years under a certified painting contractor. Luckily the GC I worked for is adding me as sub for them in the mean time.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ZTVWd-X8A&sig2=3GxnKFkE56iuS6to-W3VvQ&cad=rja
> 
> Not trying to derail the thread, just letting anyone else know in Palm Beach County how goofy the rules are, back to Lead Laws :thumbsup:


Wow, I did not know that about Palm Beach Country. I just know that everything costs more down there. You wouldn't happen to be in Wellington or the Royal Palm Beach area by any chance?


----------



## slinger58

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Add to that so long as you are illegal or post no job signs , vehicles not lettered you can do whatever you want. I"M called by the state RRP nazis every time we work in a older house. Why because my job sign is up my van is lettered and we wear company logo shirts. In the states eyes that means we have money they want more of it. Come here illegally buy a van do whatever you want no worries . I see it everyday:yes:


I've often thought that by taking the RRP classes and getting certified, I was pretty much painting a target on my back.:yes:


----------



## 54pontiac

Seth The Painter said:


> Amen brother. Oden hit it out of the park. When it's lead I bid it like a normal exterior then I add 25%.


Here in Atlanta, I find most people don't know about the lead laws. I got the certification last year for a particular project. I test, explain, send them the required materials by email and bid about 20% higher for labor and materials. Most I don't hear back from. 

I work by myself and stay pretty busy. I have an interest in historic houses and feel an obligation to help people who are trying to keep up their pre-1978 houses. A lot of contractors won't touch them. I don't do stripping, just bleach/scrape/prime/caulk/paint. Interesting thread.


----------



## Epoxy Pro

54pontiac said:


> Here in Atlanta, I find most people don't know about the lead laws. I got the certification last year for a particular project. I test, explain, send them the required materials by email and bid about 20% higher for labor and materials. Most I don't hear back from.
> 
> I work by myself and stay pretty busy. I have an interest in historic houses and feel an obligation to help people who are trying to keep up their pre-1978 houses. A lot of contractors won't touch them. I don't do stripping, just bleach/scrape/prime/caulk/paint. Interesting thread.


Lead scrape only 50%, scrape and sand to feather edges 75%, fully remove back to bare wood 125% mark up. Even then it's not enough some times.

This customer did hire an unlicensed/certified painter who was caught and fined. The home still looks the same as it did when I made this thread.


----------



## lilpaintchic

chrisn said:


> is this even required? I can't remember, having done 0 jobs with my fancy lead certification


i believe its OSHA, not the feds that have this requirement. between the two of them we're never going to get anything done and the ho's will pay a premium for it. lol can i just have a refund of my time for that class? jk


----------



## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> i believe its OSHA, not the feds that have this requirement. between the two of them we're never going to get anything done and the ho's will pay a premium for it. lol can i just have a refund of my time for that class? jk


Strictly speaking, OSHA is the Feds. About half the states, like Washington, have an "equivalent" state program. I found Washington State's version, WISHA, to be even more of a pain than OSHA. That's one of the main reasons we stopped doing business there.


----------



## daArch

Having been lead poisoned myself, I feel sorry for those that think it's a non issue and just a buerocratic money machine.

I see non-compliance repaints on churches and other buildings that have a child care playground right in the drop zone and I muse how much it will cost society when even a small percent of those children suffer from the very real results of lead poisoning.


Throughout history the over bearing nanny state has over-reacted and forced it's ridiculous regulations and standards on us poor citizens to clean up our act for no good reason, and what has it created? To what tangible good ?

LA in the 70's/80's




















LA today:


----------



## DrakeB

While I don't necessarily disagree with you in some ways, Bill, we need to be cautious of drawing conclusions from pictures like those. There were clear days then, and smoggy days now.


----------



## daArch

DrakeB said:


> While I don't necessarily disagree with you in some ways, Bill, we need to be cautious of drawing conclusions from pictures like those. There were clear days then, and smoggy days now.


and I guess we can only draw definite conclusions from those that have lived there for 40 - 50 years as to the percentage of difference. But until we have some eyewitness reports, perhaps these various graphs will give some indication on how population and travel miles have increased while air pollution has decreased. 

With the pix and these graphs, I think we can get a clear picture of the clear picture.


----------



## DrakeB

Like I said, I don't disagree with you, I'm just not a proponent of circumstantial images presented as evidence. For a good example of this being misused, see Al Gore's movie where he shows a picture of a nuclear power plant venting _steam_ while he's talking about pollution. While nuclear power certainly looks intimidating with big clouds coming out, that's just water vapor. There's plenty of other reasonable criticisms about nuclear power, I just have a personal thing about people using images/video as evidence of things when many times they aren't.


----------



## daArch

DrakeB said:


> Like I said, I don't disagree with you, I'm just not a proponent of circumstantial images presented as evidence. For a good example of this being misused, see Al Gore's movie where he shows a picture of a nuclear power plant venting _steam_ while he's talking about pollution. While nuclear power certainly looks intimidating with big clouds coming out, that's just water vapor. There's plenty of other reasonable criticisms about nuclear power, I just have a personal thing about people using images/video as evidence of things when many times they aren't.


ABSOLUTELY, you know my opinion of lowly Yankee paperhanging frauds posting pix of how great their work is when in real life it is pure unadulterated DIY hackery.


----------



## Crackshot

I know how to remove it all in 5 days(average 4 bedroom weatherboard house) no stripper/chems/heat/dust
rain or shine, no power needed.. 
actually I would prefer to chemical scribers and other round detail, but yeah. everything else off in hours. as fast as u can walk. all caught contained and surface prepped in 1. 
you charge them the whole cost manually anyway right.

next best thing would be paying a builder to rip them all off. chuck them through an auto plane, throw them back up preprimed

what are the law's where you live/work. 
if you test lead, do you have to remove it for a repaint?
i wish they would here....


----------



## chrisn

Crackshot said:


> I know how to remove it all in 5 days(average 4 bedroom weatherboard house) no stripper/chems/heat/dust
> rain or shine, no power needed..
> actually I would prefer to chemical scribers and other round detail, but yeah. everything else off in hours. as fast as u can walk. all caught contained and surface prepped in 1.
> you charge them the whole cost manually anyway right.
> 
> next best thing would be paying a builder to rip them all off. chuck them through an auto plane, throw them back up preprimed
> 
> what are the law's where you live/work.
> if you test lead, do you have to remove it for a repaint?
> i wish they would here....


Care to enlighten us stupid ones?


----------



## Crackshot

chrisn said:


> Care to enlighten us stupid ones?


here is a video. *note this is the old model. the new model is mounted on your back. with a boom arm, easy to use, can do not just weatherboards, tiltslab, concrete, frames, trim, soffits plus more 
does the underside of weatherboards, goes right down to 16 grit. 




in this video John doesnt have the enviromat or gutter system but you can see it here.





I dont work for or sell these. this is just tech I am sharing with you.


----------



## Gough

Crackshot said:


> here is a video. *note this is the old model. the new model is mounted on your back. with a boom arm, easy to use, can do not just weatherboards, tiltslab, concrete, frames, trim, soffits plus more
> does the underside of weatherboards, goes right down to 16 grit.
> alderson sander stripping weatherboards - YouTube
> in this video John doesnt have the enviromat or gutter system but you can see it here.
> Alderson Waste Recovery System - YouTube
> 
> I dont work for or sell these. this is just tech I am sharing with you.


That would be blatantly illegal for a contractor to use here in the US. Power sanding methods to remove lead-based paints are required to be equipped with vacuum dust collection systems using High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filters.


----------



## chrisn

Interesting, but the first vid shows not RRG procedures at all and I wonder as to the effectiveness of that sander when you have about 60 layers of paint on the siding?


----------



## PACman

Gough said:


> That would be blatantly illegal for a contractor to use here in the US. Power sanding methods to remove lead-based paints are required to be equipped with vacuum dust collection systems using High Efficiency Particulate Air (HEPA) filters.


Yeah, we can drink it we just can't breath it. ???? That has to seem strange overseas.


----------



## Crackshot

im not sure if you can see. but there is no dust. this is wet sanding. there is water constantly wetting the sanding head. this is the only way remove acrylic as to not carbonize the substrate with excessive sanding. also its a motor. not power.. thanks.


----------



## Gough

Crackshot said:


> im not sure if you can see. but there is no dust. this is wet sanding. there is water constantly wetting the sanding head. this is the only way remove acrylic as to not carbonize the substrate with excessive sanding.


Thanks, but that still won't meet US standards. Not to say that they shouldn't be changed, but that wouldn't meet our current RRP rules. It also raises the issue of releasing lead-contaminated water, something that is strictly regulated in some areas


----------



## DrakeB

Crackshot said:


> also its a motor. not power.. thanks.


You... uh... what?


----------



## Gough

DrakeB said:


> You... uh... what?


Actually, it's an engine, not a motor. Think Weedwacker with a sanding disk instead of the string head.


----------



## Crackshot

Gough said:


> Actually, it's an engine, not a motor. Think Weedwacker with a sanding disk instead of the string head.


yep you got it. pretty much, has grit on the 60 pads that do the underside too. and it sprays water on surface too. =D


----------



## slinger58

chrisn said:


> Interesting, but the first vid shows not RRG procedures at all and I wonder as to the effectiveness of that sander when you have about 60 layers of paint on the siding?


Instead of what appears to be a single coat of solid color stain that's 4 or 5 years old? Lol. 

Yep, with 100 year old siding he'd need to bring a lawn chair and a sackful of sanding discs. Won't be none of that walk along sh!t.:no:


----------



## Crackshot

slinger58 said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, but the first vid shows not RRG procedures at all and I wonder as to the effectiveness of that sander when you have about 60 layers of paint on the siding?
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of what appears to be a single coat of solid color stain that's 4 or 5 years old? Lol.
> 
> Yep, with 100 year old siding he'd need to bring a lawn chair and a sackful of sanding discs. Won't be none of that walk along sh!t.:no:
Click to expand...


these go down to 16 grit. it will take your face of in a second.
lots of videos showing it working on different jobs. the above video is a 60grit finishing disc (giving you around a 100/120 grit finish with water) 





their website, the 16 grit doesn't do the underside. only the 60's.
http://www.aldersonsanders.co.nz/product/the-shredder-16/

designed in NZ,


----------



## MIZZOU

Calm down new guy


----------



## slinger58

MIZZOU said:


> Calm down new guy


Lol. I like him already.


----------



## Holland

I try to view the Lead Laws in a practical way, one that captures the spirit of the Law. 

The Lead Law was designed to protect Children under 6 years of age from the mental effects of over-exposure of Lead (a heavy metal) in their system. Do the owners have children? Yes? Are they under six? Yes? If so, I am going to be a lot more careful than I might be otherwise. (*Lead is essentially harmless to adults and children over 6).

Is the "lead area" interior or exterior? If the room in question is interior, I will take more precautions to ensure that the child will never ingest any lead paint? Because ingesting is the only way children can be harmed by lead, I try not to leave anything they can eat or get on fingers, etc...

Is it outside? If so, I tend to be a little more forgiving here, as the wind can ruin my best effort at perfection. And if the child is going to eat dirt then he may need better monitoring anyway.

*It is my understanding that if a home does not have children, and children never visit, then the lead-laws do not apply. You may wish to verify this. 

Otherwise, I remind the customer that I have children, and will treat their home as if it was my child at risk (loss of 4 I.Q. points for one small chip of paint ingested). I educate them about the risks of their child eating lead paint, so they can know what to look for, and not over-react out of fear. 

I never "sand" lead based paint, because it is illegal. It creates a fine "lead dust" that covers everything, and the lead dust can now be inhaled. Although, it may be legal if wet, and the sander is connected to a HEPA vac, I just don't like to create those kinds of issues. I tell the customer it's not allowed. I absolutely never 'burn' lead based paint to remove, as it creates a highly toxic "lead fume" (which is actually harmful to me). As a rule if the lead based paint is stable- Leave It Alone!

Come on guys, lets make this lead thing work for us, and not make it bigger PITA than it already is!


----------



## Gough

Holland Painting said:


> I try to view the Lead Laws in a practical way, one that captures the spirit of the Law.
> 
> The Lead Law was designed to protect Children under 6 years of age from the mental effects of over-exposure of Lead (a heavy metal) in their system. Do the owners have children? Yes? Are they under six? Yes? If so, I am going to be a lot more careful than I might be otherwise. (*Lead is essentially harmless to adults and children over 6).
> 
> Is the "lead area" interior or exterior? If the room in question is interior, I will take more precautions to ensure that the child will never ingest any lead paint? Because ingesting is the only way children can be harmed by lead, I try not to leave anything they can eat or get on fingers, etc...
> 
> Is it outside? If so, I tend to be a little more forgiving here, as the wind can ruin my best effort at perfection. And if the child is going to eat dirt then he may need better monitoring anyway.
> 
> *It is my understanding that if a home does not have children, and children never visit, then the lead-laws do not apply. You may wish to verify this.
> 
> Otherwise, I remind the customer that I have children, and will treat their home as if it was my child at risk (loss of 4 I.Q. points for one small chip of paint ingested). I educate them about the risks of their child eating lead paint, so they can know what to look for, and not over-react out of fear.
> 
> I never "sand" lead based paint, because it is illegal. It creates a fine "lead dust" that covers everything, and the lead dust can now be inhaled. Although, it may be legal if wet, and the sander is connected to a HEPA vac, I just don't like to create those kinds of issues. I tell the customer it's not allowed. I absolutely never 'burn' lead based paint to remove, as it creates a highly toxic "lead fume" (which is actually harmful to me). As a rule if the lead based paint is stable- Leave It Alone!
> 
> Come on guys, lets make this lead thing work for us, and not make it bigger PITA than it already is!


Not sure if serious. If so, this post is a veritable font of misinformation.


----------



## Holland

@Gough
Toxic Substances Control Act (section 402(c)(3) of TSCA regarding Target Housing and A Child-occupied Facility.


----------



## Holland

Gough said:


> Not sure if serious. If so, this post is a veritable font of misinformation.


 @Gough,
I have a right to know what "misinformation" you are accusing me of. 
(you sure weigh in heavy for a moderator.)


----------



## Gough

Holland Painting said:


> @Gough,
> I have a right to know what "misinformation" you are accusing me of.
> (you sure weigh in heavy for a moderator.)


Fair enough.

While exposure to lead is most problematic for young children because they are mylenating, it is not "essentially harmless" to older children and adults. Just ask the members of this forum who have been treated for lead poisoning as adults. Its danger to adults is the whole reason behind OSHA 1926.62 "Lead in Construction".

Ingestion is not the only route, inhalation is the second most common, and there are others.

The addition of vertical containment requirements was intended to minimize the impact of wind-borne lead dust and debris. The wind blowing doesn't give you a pass.

The "Opt-out clause" for homes without young children was eliminated almost at the outset.

Sanding LPB is legal if the sander is equipped with HEPA--vacuum filtration, wet-sanding is not required. You're merely spreading more misinformation by telling your clients that sanding LBP is illegal.

I'm assuming from what you have posted that you haven't been through the RRP training, given that all of the above should have been covered. I know it was in ours.


----------



## Holland

Gough said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> While exposure to lead is most problematic for young children because they are mylenating, it is not "essentially harmless" to older children and adults. Just ask the members of this forum who have been treated for lead poisoning as adults. Its danger to adults is the whole reason behind OSHA 1926.62 "Lead in Construction".
> 
> Ingestion is not the only route, inhalation is the second most common, and there are others.
> 
> The addition of vertical containment requirements was intended to minimize the impact of wind-borne lead dust and debris. The wind blowing doesn't give you a pass.
> 
> The "Opt-out clause" for homes without young children was eliminated almost at the outset.
> 
> Sanding LPB is legal if the sander is equipped with HEPA--vacuum filtration, wet-sanding is not required. You're merely spreading more misinformation by telling your clients that sanding LBP is illegal.
> 
> I'm assuming from what you have posted that you haven't been through the RRP training, given that all of the above should have been covered. I know it was in ours.


Yes, I was through the training and am currently certified. The book I received and studied from "Lead Safety for Renovation, Painting and Repair" lists the regulations and exclusions on Page 1. 

As stated, inhalation is the reason sanding is prohibited on Lead Surfaces. The particles become airborne. Although I did say that it is acceptable if a sander is attached to a Hepa Vac.. Even so, the particles are much smaller, and I believe not everything is recovered in that situation. I personally avoid sanding whenever possible.

Adults are not immune, but it takes a significant amount of Lead exposure, and that repeatedly, to create a toxic amount in the body. The average homeowner is not at great risk for Lead Poisoning from painting a home. As stated, the reason for the Lead Law was to protect children who are at Greatest Risk of lead Poisoning between the ages of 1-5, and pregnant or nursing mothers. 

I just think that there are some painters out there who can't see the forest for the trees. 

I know from working in the Stained Glass Profession for several years prior to becoming a painting contractor that it takes a significant amount of exposure to lead for an adult to form health problems. It takes years of repeated exposure and unclean work habits (e.g., not washing hands before eating or smoking, etc...). It doesn't just happen after a one time exposure to handling lead came.

There are a lot of painters out there (not on this forum, but in the real world) who have no idea what the Lead Law states. They are scared of it. In those cases I tell them that they need to get certified, but I also educate them that these Lead Guidelines were initially created to protect the high risk group: children under 6 years old. These are the ones we need to be extra careful around when disturbing Lead based paint.


----------



## Gough

Holland Painting said:


> Lead is essentially harmless to adults and children over 6.
> 
> Because ingesting is the only way children can be harmed by lead, I try not to leave anything they can eat or get on fingers, etc...
> 
> 
> It is my understanding that if a home does not have children, and children never visit, then the lead-laws do not apply.
> 
> 
> Although, it may be legal if wet, and the sander is connected to a HEPA vac, I just don't like to create those kinds of issues. I tell the customer it's not allowed.


To be clear, these are the main statements that got my attention. I was concerned that other readers might believe them to be true.


----------



## Roamer

Holland Painting said:


> I absolutely never 'burn' lead based paint to remove, as it creates a highly toxic "lead fume" (which is actually harmful to me). As a rule if the lead based paint is stable- Leave It Alone!


Typically, you only make fumes out of lead at 1200-1500 F. Most heat guns are acceptable for use by the RRP as long as they do not exceed 1100 degrees.

Also, using the Speedheater, infrared, is also acceptable by the RRP.


----------



## Gough

Roamer said:


> Typically, you only make fumes out of lead at 1200-1500 F. Most heat guns are acceptable for use by the RRP as long as they do not exceed 1100 degrees.
> 
> Also, using the Speedheater, infrared, is also acceptable by the RRP.


We use the Hyde and Warner heat plates, which fall within the acceptable range.


----------



## Roamer

How well do those work? We are currently stripping 14 sashes and 12 doors in our shop with heat guns and it is slow going. We are getting a new Speedheater delivered on Thursday to hopefully help with the process.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc.

Roamer said:


> How well do those work? We are currently stripping 14 sashes and 12 doors in our shop with heat guns and it is slow going. We are getting a new Speedheater delivered on Thursday to hopefully help with the process.


I seem to remember Gough saying that he hasn't seen them for sale anywhere for quite some time. Not sure if they're still available. If you happen to find them online, please post link. Probably the only thing I haven't ever tried when it comes to stripping paint.


----------



## Gough

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I seem to remember Gough saying that he hasn't seen them for sale anywhere for quite some time. Not sure if they're still available. If you happen to find them online, please post link. Probably the only thing I haven't ever tried when it comes to stripping paint.


That's the problem, I haven't seen them on the market for several years at least.


----------



## PACman

http://www.eco-strip.com/
I believe this is what you are talking about.
Date of last update on the website is 2016, so unless there has been some kind of legal issue they should still be available. They may have lost or changed their distribution channels, and that may be why they seem to have disappeared from the web. They might just want to sell direct themselves.


----------



## Gough

PACman said:


> http://www.eco-strip.com/
> I believe this is what you are talking about.
> Date of last update on the website is 2016, so unless there has been some kind of legal issue they should still be available. They may have lost or changed their distribution channels, and that may be why they seem to have disappeared from the web. They might just want to sell direct themselves.


Sorry, no. The Hyde and Warners are different critters. Here's a Warner. The Hyde version is similar, but with the long axis of the element in line with the handle rather than at a right angle. They both use conventional resistive elements, like an electric stove.


----------



## PACman

Gough said:


> Sorry, no. The Hyde and Warners are different critters. Here's a Warner. The Hyde version is similar, but with the long axis of the element in line with the handle rather than at a right angle. They both use conventional resistive elements, like an electric stove.
> 
> View attachment 72434


This may answer your questions regarding the Hyde and Warner heat plates.
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/113098

read section 1.03-1
I'm sure the reason they quit making them is due to a certain extent to liability issues. Not only were DIY'ers burning their houses down, but if Warner and Hyde were instructing people (diy'ers) how to remove lead paint they were violating the law. Part of this whole lead thing is that retailers are not allowed to tell people how to remove lead paint. We legally cannot tell them a thing about how to remove lead paint. Many retailers do, but they can and are being caught and getting into trouble. The reason is quite simple, we are not certified to tell people how to do it. The only thing I can legally recommend is for a person to go to EPA.gov for lead info.
Even contractors that have been certified for lead paint removal cannot legally instruct anyone one how to do it. They are not certified for training or teaching lead control. Therefore you really have to be careful if you are working on a job legally and properly certified. If the EPA catches the property owner doing any lead paint removal while you are on the job, you can get in trouble for illegally teaching that property owner on lead abatement procedures. You really should never let a property owner "help" you or get involved in any way while you are working on a lead stripping job.


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## Roamer

PACman said:


> http://www.eco-strip.com/
> I believe this is what you are talking about.
> Date of last update on the website is 2016, so unless there has been some kind of legal issue they should still be available. They may have lost or changed their distribution channels, and that may be why they seem to have disappeared from the web. They might just want to sell direct themselves.


We just got a new one and bulbs for our old one. They are now both working much better than heat guns, both, in terms of speed of paint removal and quality of the stripped surface. There is little to no scorching of the surfaces and stripping next to glass results in much less breakage.


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## PACman

Roamer said:


> We just got a new one and bulbs for our old one. They are now both working much better than heat guns, both, in terms of speed of paint removal and quality of the stripped surface. There is little to no scorching of the surfaces and stripping next to glass results in much less breakage.


Maybe if you didn't strip right in front of the window, people would stop throwing rocks at the glass.


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## Stretch67

http://truthinmedia.com/shocking-ne...ilure-to-stop-flint-from-drinking-lead-water/

Reading this reminded me of the time several years back when I was a newb here..... I was kinda downplaying the lead issues (residential) and said something to the effect that you should be more concerned about your drinking water than lead paint... I got flamed pretty good.

Well lol, whaddya spose all the old towers/equipment are lined with?


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