# Chalky film on interior walls



## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

Good afternoon - first time posting within this forum, I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts and thank you in advance!

Here is the issue:
In February 2014, I was hired to repair lath/plaster walls of cracks, delaminated plaster and ceiling to wall joint cracks. This three level senior's residence (hallways/stairwells only) was repaired/spot primed and repainted using Zero VOC paint - client prerequisite - using SW ProMar 200 0-VOC LS on walls (Basic Khaki - Dulux) and SW ASE Semi 0-VOC on the trim (Sanderling-Dulux). In May of 2015, I received a follow up phone call from the building owners requesting a site visit to consult on an issue they were having with the paint.

Upon inspection, all repainted walls showed varying degrees of 'chalking' or 'chalkiness' (i.e. wipe hand on surface - white powder residue on hand). Within that discussion, they admitted issues with a leaky roof, plaster/paint popping in various places on exterior walls but wanted to know why there was white chalk all over the interior corridor/stairwell walls. 

I brought along my rep from SW and we were both somewhat surprised to see the extent of the issue. All walls - all surfaces. *Has anyone seen this before?* The building is 30-40yrs old - squished mortar/brick facade.

Tomorrow, I will do another site visit and take pictures. They tried washing the walls, but the chalking came back within a week. Basement boiler, building is hot, corridors are hot and dry.


What caused(s) this? 
What would your approach be to repairing/repainting the walls?
Would you suggest washing with TSP? (green tsp) or use an Oil primer? Hybrid oil primer? Lock/Block walls and repaint?
I need to put together a plan, your input would be much appreciated.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

It is called "frosting" and there is a recent post on this when another quality SW product line was used. Clean it as best as you can, use an oil based primer, and use another (better) brand of paint. The lo-voc promar products have a bumped up percentage of cheaper extender pigments, which are usually the root cause of frosting issues.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

A 30 to 40 year old building that is lathe and plaster? Really ?
I think that building may be a lot older than that and may have all kinds of issues IE leaks and insulation and so on. And not just roof leaks either. All them water/.drain lines, your lines from ur boiler to ur radiators, they leak and they sweat. And that old plaster it crumbles. It looks at first like that surfactant leaching and may well be to some extent. But you know? You weren't patching it together in the first place cause it didn't already have issues. I'd think. But? 30 to 40 years old? Really?


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

I was told it was built in the late 70's, that said, your point is valid! It could be older, I didn't question it's age any further.

Frosting? I haven't heard that term before. I've seen chalking/frosting on exterior paint - but on interior walls - that's a new one, thus the post.

I take it PACman you're not a big fan of SW paints. Which oil primer do you recommend if it has to be extremely low to no VOC's? And, what is your preferred 0 VOC top coat paint? This would be classified as a 'commercial' building - and a non profit to top it off!


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Check the surface pH. Sounds like high pH burning the paint, a form of supponification or pH breaking down a cured coating. Use distilled water and a pool water testing kit. If high that may be your problem. Could Calcimine also be present?


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

These walls were previously painted with a latex paint (light institutional green) other than P200 being an inferior product - would Calcimine work it's way through the previous coats? Was that used to seal the original plaster, or is it contained IN the plaster itself? Is there a test for that? Or, do I ask my SW rep to take a sample to the lab?

I know how to check the PH of a pool, but to check the PH of a wall...can you elaborate on the how of that NACE?


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

speedyhotrod said:


> These walls were previously painted with a latex paint (light institutional green) other than P200 being an inferior product - would Calcimine work it's way through the previous coats? Was that used to seal the original plaster, or is it contained IN the plaster itself? Is there a test for that? Or, do I ask my SW rep to take a sample to the lab?
> 
> I know how to check the PH of a pool, but to check the PH of a wall...can you elaborate on the how of that NACE?


Likely not calcimine based on your description. Test pH by dabbing distilled water in chalky areas and tight adhering areas and stick pH paper or pH stick in the wet area. Depending on the test you use, high pH on the scale would be 13 or dark purple or magenta color. Something broke down the binder in the paint. Alkalinity or high pH is the enemy of latex and oil base coatings.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

NACE said:


> Likely not calcimine based on your description. Test pH by dabbing distilled water in chalky areas and tight adhering areas and stick pH paper or pH stick in the wet area. Depending on the test you use, high pH on the scale would be 13 or dark purple or magenta color. Something broke down the binder in the paint. Alkalinity or high pH is the enemy of latex and oil base coatings.


Just tested a house the other week that had delamination issues. The plaster read anywhere from 4 to 13 depending on the room. What do you think of using masonry conditioner as a first step before primer? Oh and this is not related to moisture issues.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

What did the rep say about it?


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

A primer that will tolerate a 13 pH is a good idea as a barrier primer so long as the issue causing the high pH is repaired. High pH can be related to a high lime content in the plaster used to ease troweling by the plasterer. Perhaps the water base paint had sufficient moisture during application to activate the higher pH? Won't know until it's tested.


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

My meeting is scheduled for the morning at 10. I'll have to keep you posted #lilpaintchic
My guess is...oil prime, recoat, however, due to the 0-VOC limitation, the owner will likely not accept this as an option. I'll keep you posted. So much drama!


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

therein lies the problem...assuming the 'issue' causing the high PH is repaired.

Determining the cause of the potentially higher pH level is the underlying challenge. I also don't want to be 'blind sided' by either the owner or the rep, i.e. it's my problem to pay for and fix. (2yrs removed) I'll wear my big boy pants tomorrow for sure!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Well if they want 0 voc's you're pretty limited. Big problems require big guns, not bb guns...there's a very good reason that we still have solvents in this industry...

I'm very interested in what the rep recommends. Is there a 0 VOC exterior product available? My first thought is Emerald. and loxon or gardz as a bonding primer (vot sure what the voc's are but I'm pretty sure they're not 0.). Those are a couple of ideas anyway...
I used a low voc xim primer a few weeks ago...acetone based...it smelled HORRIBLE! but it was "low voc".. find out if they're relating paint smells to voc's. Perhaps their lack of education is a barrier to a long term solution.. .good luck.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Make sure the rep has credentials that mirror his/her ability to evaluate and diagnose the issue. Not sure how you are responsible for a year old coating that is exhibiting something nobody has seen before that the owner specified a coating system with admitted structural issues that are over a year old and was going over a system that someone else had previously applied? Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

The source of the problem needs to be found first. Keep your rep involved through the whole process. Test the walls, take pictures, put a ladder up outside, look at the roof and siding. If it turns out to be the paint and not something else then look to SW to write a spec and take care of it. Don't agree to anything at this point.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Well if they want 0 voc's you're pretty limited. Big problems require big guns, not bb guns...there's a very good reason that we still have solvents in this industry...
> 
> I'm very interested in what the rep recommends. Is there a 0 VOC exterior product available? My first thought is Emerald. and loxon or gardz as a bonding primer (vot sure what the voc's are but I'm pretty sure they're not 0.). Those are a couple of ideas anyway…
> *I used a low voc xim primer a few weeks ago...acetone based...it smelled HORRIBLE! but it was "low voc"..find out if they're relating paint smells to voc's. Perhaps their lack of education is a barrier to a long term solution.. *.good luck.


Smart! Great suggestion. If that's the case, you may want to sell this client on the idea that virtually ALL coatings have an odor, so you had better use the best product for the job. One that your rep says is specced exactly for the difficult substrate you are dealing with.

And in different scenarios, I will sometimes do the opposite with smell sensitive clients, and actually sell them on a zero VOC product. I never guarantee that there will be zero odor involved with the project (since smell is so subjective), but I can guarantee that I will use zero VOC coatings. The can will even have a ''green seal of approval'' stamped on the label!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

speedyhotrod said:


> I was told it was built in the late 70's, that said, your point is valid! It could be older, I didn't question it's age any further.
> 
> Frosting? I haven't heard that term before. I've seen chalking/frosting on exterior paint - but on interior walls - that's a new one, thus the post.
> 
> I take it PACman you're not a big fan of SW paints. Which oil primer do you recommend if it has to be extremely low to no VOC's? And, what is your preferred 0 VOC top coat paint? This would be classified as a 'commercial' building - and a non profit to top it off!


this primer-http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/odorless-oil-base-stain-blocker

And I have sold way to much Promar 200 and sold way to many competing products to accept it as anything more than a high end apartment paint. Other the the fact that many painters can make a nice little mark-up by using it I really don't understand why it is ever used outside of said apartments and maybe new construction. That was always it's intended purpose. Way too many people use it in situations where it should not be used, simply because of the price. And the SW sales force encourages it's use regardless of the history of mediocrity it has. It's all about their profits. It's easier to sell a product at $20 then it is at $45, regardless of how well the more expensive product performs.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I'd bet the Oval Office is painted with pro mar 200
And the exterior is a-100
Lol


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

*The Update*

Well that went better than expected...thanks everyone for your input. SW Rep will send a sample to the lab for testing, next visit. I may still do my own pH test, because I think it's worth doing. Also, I've attached a few pics of the the first level walls.

The owner wasn't inferring or conferring blame on anyone, he knows it is a "40+ yr old building" and it has some issues. The Rep reiterated his position that as it is throughout each corridor on all walls, it is a 'substrate' issue rather than a coating issue. John is the most senior rep in the area (25+ yrs). We conferred prior to the meeting and agreed on two solutions. 

To start, I agreed to repaint two TEST WALLS (10x8) using SW Emerald (one coat) to see if the dusting/chalking/frosting makes it through SW's most advance coating. Then we presented two options.

*Option 1:* The preferred approach (as suggested by many in this thread): Oil Prime + 2 Coats. As anticipated, the owner was very concerned as this is a senior's residence - many have breathing difficulties and want to avoid ANY harsh smells or VOC's. 

*Option 2*: If Test Walls prove effective, two coats of Emerald on all walls. However, if Emerald fails, return to Option 1, suggest using air purifiers/filtration, open windows, doors, circulate as much as possible to minimize oil primer odors. Top with Emerald.

Option 1 - less cost effective, best approach
Option 2 - more cost effective, won't know until spring

SW REP will review Emerald paint cost for this job, seek to discount or donate some of the paint cost to the non profit.

Again, I do appreciate all the input and feedback.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

speedyhotrod said:


> Well that went better than expected...thanks everyone for your input. SW Rep will send a sample to the lab for testing, next visit. I may still do my own pH test, because I think it's worth doing. Also, I've attached a few pics of the the first level walls.
> 
> The owner wasn't inferring or conferring blame on anyone, he knows it is a "40+ yr old building" and it has some issues. The Rep reiterated his position that as it is throughout each corridor on all walls, it is a 'substrate' issue rather than a coating issue. John is the most senior rep in the area (25+ yrs). We conferred prior to the meeting and agreed on two solutions.
> 
> ...


This is called ass covering at it's finest! Did you NOT put the same coating on all the walls? Typical response from a vested SW rep. Cover the companies ass as long as possible until the lab can find a way to weasel out of it. Trust me, they will find something. They are the best in the business at deflecting blame.

Is this "new" work? On a 40 something year old building? And as a substrate problem it never showed up with ANY OTHER paint that was used in 40+ years. And after having god knows how many coats of paint to seal in the substrate "problem"? I really don't think this is a "substrate issue". What did you or how did you clean the walls? Anything you haven't used before? That would be the only thing besides the paint itself that could cause this problem on a substrate with god knows how many previous coats of paint on it.

Watch YOUR a55! You are on about to get screwed I believe.

And to answer a question in your original post, yes I have seen it before.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> This is called ass covering at it's finest! Did you NOT put the same coating on all the walls? Typical response from a vested SW rep. Cover the companies ass as long as possible until the lab can find a way to weasel out of it. Trust me, they will find something. They are the best in the business at deflecting blame.
> 
> Is this "new" work? On a 40 something year old building? And as a substrate problem it never showed up with ANY OTHER paint that was used in 40+ years. And after having god knows how many coats of paint to seal in the substrate "problem"? I really don't think this is a "substrate issue". What did you or how did you clean the walls? Anything you haven't used before? That would be the only thing besides the paint itself that could cause this problem on a substrate with god knows how many previous coats of paint on it.
> 
> ...


 I agree that the problem never apparently manifested itself after multiple coats, the only difference to our knowledge is structural leaks etc that may have changed the equation. I'm not convinced that the system recommended is the proper diagnosis or solution, however that is up to the those involved. Oil based primers generally are not the solution over pH issues if that has been determined. Having worked for a large paint company for 30 years, the lab/failure analysis usually is bogus for a job of this size, as analysis is costly and time consuming. Not to say they won't do it in a timely fashion, but I always used cigars and premium Vodka with the lab guys to put my very infrequent complaints on the radar and turn around in a week or less. Friend your lab guys but don't disrespect their time and quirky personalities. No disrespect to you chemistry types!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> I agree that the problem never apparently manifested itself after multiple coats, the only difference to our knowledge is structural leaks etc that may have changed the equation. I'm not convinced that the system recommended is the proper diagnosis or solution, however that is up to the those involved. Oil based primers generally are not the solution over pH issues if that has been determined. Having worked for a large paint company for 30 years, the lab/failure analysis usually is bogus for a job of this size, as analysis is costly and time consuming. Not to say they won't do it in a timely fashion, but I always used cigars and premium Vodka with the lab guys to put my very infrequent complaints on the radar and turn around in a week or less. Friend your lab guys but don't disrespect their time and quirky personalities. No disrespect to you chemistry types!


Being an independent gives me a little bit different perspective on the labs I guess. After all, I'm not a "fellow employee" but a customer. I have dealt with the labs on many, many occasions myself and it always amazed me how their results would be "bended" a little bit on the input of their corporate masters. (Volkswagen, cough, cough.)

Things like "potential moisture issues" becoming a "defacto" failure cause was quite common. I'm not saying moisture problems couldn't have caused this, but really? On EVERY wall, equally distributed? It isn't a sauna is it? Moisture issues are fairly able to be isolated to a particular area. Paint product failures are usually what causes a failure throughout a building. Or a cleaning/prep issue, but usually that happens if a system is changed for some reason or it would show up on other isolated jobs as well. 

I have seen this problem in the past, been through the whole lab testing routine, had the paint company I worked for find an excuse to not pay 100% to fix the problem, and stick the painter with the fix even though the lab could only give half-assed reasons why it couldn't have been the paint. Then a week later they sent out a recall bulletin to the stores recalling the exact same batch that was used that caused the problem. More then once!


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> Being an independent gives me a little bit different perspective on the labs I guess. After all, I'm not a "fellow employee" but a customer. I have dealt with the labs on many, many occasions myself and it always amazed me how their results would be "bended" a little bit on the input of their corporate masters. (Volkswagen, cough, cough.)
> 
> Things like "potential moisture issues" becoming a "defacto" failure cause was quite common. I'm not saying moisture problems couldn't have caused this, but really? On EVERY wall, equally distributed? It isn't a sauna is it? Moisture issues are fairly able to be isolated to a particular area. Paint product failures are usually what causes a failure throughout a building. Or a cleaning/prep issue, but usually that happens if a system is changed for some reason or it would show up on other isolated jobs as well.
> 
> I have seen this problem in the past, been through the whole lab testing routine, had the paint company I worked for find an excuse to not pay 100% to fix the problem, and stick the painter with the fix even though the lab could only give half-assed reasons why it couldn't have been the paint. Then a week later they sent out a recall bulletin to the stores recalling the exact same batch that was used that caused the problem. More then once!


 
I with a few retailers now. Agree, labs can give biased results. One of my NACE teachers was a failure analysis attorney. He always said to me if you need help I can make the case go with way, which ever is best for you! Would agree that moisture may not effect everything but any failure analysis should include all due diligence and testing. The lab my find the product failed or was defective, but it doesn't explain the history of the failure. Someone always leaves out a little important information. After going on complaints for 35+ years, I have learned to trust my experience, not those that are complaining.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I work in paint retailing now. My bad


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## Huntercoatings (Aug 16, 2013)

PACman said:


> It is called "frosting" and there is a recent post on this when another quality SW product line was used. Clean it as best as you can, use an oil based primer, and use another (better) brand of paint. The lo-voc promar products have a bumped up percentage of cheaper extender pigments, which are usually the root cause of frosting issues.


-Agreed with this statement, I know all to well about the pro-crap 0voc!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> I with a few retailers now. Agree, labs can give biased results. One of my NACE teachers was a failure analysis attorney. He always said to me if you need help I can make the case go with way, which ever is best for you! Would agree that moisture may not effect everything but any failure analysis should include all due diligence and testing. The lab my find the product failed or was defective, but it doesn't explain the history of the failure. Someone always leaves out a little important information. After going on complaints for 35+ years, I have learned to trust my experience, not those that are complaining.


I think we can both agree though that a third party lab would be the absolute best course of action. But, the expense will make that pretty unlikely. If there was enough moisture in the form of humidity, for a long enough period of time, it could cause a much more extensive and uniform paint failure then something such as a roof leak. But also you have to take into account the type of use of this building, and the fact that it more then likely was air conditioned which would control the humidity. Unless there was a very widespread HVAC problem I don't think that is the answer either.

So I'm sticking with a product failure until a third party lab says otherwise. And I think the OP should be asking the paint supplier questions along the lines of my comments. He should take the time to understand what SW says has happened and he SHOULD take that into consideration when he buys paint in the future.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

NACE said:


> I with a few retailers now. Agree, labs can give biased results. One of my NACE teachers was a failure analysis attorney. He always said to me if you need help I can make the case go with way, which ever is best for you! Would agree that moisture may not effect everything but any failure analysis should include all due diligence and testing. The lab my find the product failed or was defective, but it doesn't explain the history of the failure. Someone always leaves out a little important information. After going on complaints for 35+ years, I have learned to trust my experience, not those that are complaining.





PACman said:


> I think we can both agree though that a third party lab would be the absolute best course of action. But, the expense will make that pretty unlikely. If there was enough moisture in the form of humidity, for a long enough period of time, it could cause a much more extensive and uniform paint failure then something such as a roof leak. But also you have to take into account the type of use of this building, and the fact that it more then likely was air conditioned which would control the humidity. Unless there was a very widespread HVAC problem I don't think that is the answer either. So I'm sticking with a product failure until a third party lab says otherwise. And I think the OP should be asking the paint supplier questions along the lines of my comments. He should take the time to understand what SW says has happened and he SHOULD take that into consideration when he buys paint in the future.


Lol
Yeh and they can all go back and forth adfinidum. One will find this and the other will find that and it depends on who's paying em. 
It's all a bunch of crap
Bottom line when the building admitted to roof leaks, game over. So long as the contractor and the sherwin admit to nothing, it's game over.


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## speedyhotrod (Aug 17, 2015)

PACman said:


> I'm sticking with a product failure until a third party lab says otherwise. And I think the OP should be asking the paint supplier questions along the lines of my comments. He should take the time to understand what SW says has happened and he SHOULD take that into consideration when he buys paint in the future.


Yes, agreed, PACman this is a SW PM200 product failure, it's a given! My inquiry was to seek input on why or what caused this product to fail so miserably. 

90% of my business is residential repaints using higher end products, however, the limited commercial work I do has extremely tight margins thus PM200. Also, the commercial painters I'm bidding against spec SW Quali kote which IMO is even more inferior. Yes, as suggested, it gives me pause as to whether to ever spec this product again. Frustrated by all of it!

I've known the owner of this building for 10+yrs, he understands that this could have happened with another brand of product. My job is to make this right! I'm not worried about the SW Rep's rep...it's my own! If that means I have to do some pro bono work, so be it. 

This has been very engaging, each person's input provides a different perspective and I appreciate that. Thank you!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

speedyhotrod said:


> Yes, agreed, PACman this is a SW PM200 product failure, it's a given! My inquiry was to seek input on why or what caused this product to fail so miserably. 90% of my business is residential repaints using higher end products, however, the limited commercial work I do has extremely tight margins thus PM200. Also, the commercial painters I'm bidding against spec SW Quali kote which IMO is even more inferior. Yes, as suggested, it gives me pause as to whether to ever spec this product again. Frustrated by all of it! I've known the owner of this building for 10+yrs, he understands that this could have happened with another brand of product. My job is to make this right! I'm not worried about the SW Rep's rep...it's my own! If that means I have to do some pro bono work, so be it. This has been very engaging, each person's input provides a different perspective and I appreciate that. Thank you!


Nep. Not convincing me
So pro mar 200 somehow spawns chalk? Lol c'mon. Just silly.
Whatever is the problem is so obviously indigenous to that building otherwise? Where's all the chalked buildings at that were painted with the pro mar? Really? And it's not even coming through the paint, it's on top the paint? Silly


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Oden said:


> Nep. Not convincing me
> So pro mar 200 somehow spawns chalk? Lol c'mon. Just silly.
> Whatever is the problem is so obviously indigenous to that building otherwise? Where's all the chalked buildings at that were painted with the pro mar? Really? And it's not even coming through the paint, it's on top the paint? Silly


I just went to one yesterday on my way home. My customer is doing insurance work for a doctor's office after a drunk driver drove through their office wall. I just went to pick up the cans of touch up paint left by the last painter. Before i ever saw the cans or knew what brand it was the office manager asked me to look at the hallways in the back area. Two colors, both of them olive green type colors just one lighter then the other. Both of them had a whitish almost powdery look that actually wouldn't rub off on my hand. The woman told me they would wash the walls and it would look ok but after a few days it comes back. They are paying extra to have the whole office re-painted to eliminate the problem. The building is three years old and the paint looks like 5hit. At this point I had no idea what paint brand or line it was.

She took me back to the maintenance room to get the paint cans. Guess what? Promar 200 lo-voc. Sure as 5hit! On my way out I briefly spoke with one of the doctors, and he said he was almost glad the front wall of his building got taken out and no one got hurt because now they could do something about the "crappy looking paint" that was used last time.

Fyi. I also found a partial bucket of drywall primer in the maintenance room, so I believe they actually primed the drywall when it was new.

So anyhow I suppose I should start encouraging the use of promar 200. It drives quite a few people into my store!

Of course the original painter doesn't know a thing about this. Why? Because they said there was no way they would call back a painter that "ripped them off" that bad the last time.


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