# Price Increase



## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

Hearing some word on the streets that there will be some early price increases for 2014 from many paint suppliers. I hope you all can Behr it. 

Just an FYI to all contractors out there. I will say work with your supplier and they will work with you in return. This will not be the last price increase we will see.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

BehrSpar said:


> Hearing some word on the streets that there will be some early price increases for 2014 from many paint suppliers. I hope you all can Behr it.
> 
> Just an FYI to all contractors out there. I will say work with your supplier and they will work with you in return. *This will not be the last price increase we will see.*



...nor the last thread created about it...


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

BehrSpar said:


> Hearing some word on the streets that there will be some early price increases for 2014 from many paint suppliers. I hope you all can Behr it.
> 
> Just an FYI to all contractors out there. I will say work with your supplier and they will work with you in return. This will not be the last price increase we will see.


Please site you source.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

I can not say who I heard this from, which I am sure you can understand. Just wanted to get the word out there. Look for increases in January, hopefully later than earlier. I have not heard about percentage increase, but I would imagine a solid 5-8% is expected. 

Words of advice would be work with your supplier. Ask him/her to hold price on core products and take full increase on others. If they can't hold the price, hopefully they will work with you. Raw material increases have calmed down so it is hard to predict exactly what increase percentage will be, or how far out next one will be. 

-The Behr


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Wow! Insider information on paint talk. Who woulda thunk, that was behrry nice of you to give such sensitive information


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

Well it only goes to say the main pigment in paint is Tio2 and DuPont has announced price increases. Up a hundred per metric ton. So if your favorite paint price does not reflect the cost increase. They may not be using much of tio2. That is just the Berh facts.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Is the price increase a result of the Behr market we are currently experiencing?

Perhaps we will just have to Behr down this winter and deal with it.

I can't Behr anymore price increases.

I'm trying to compete with Mudbone. How am I doing?


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

Some painters will berhly make it.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

epretot said:


> Is the price increase a result of the Behr market we are currently experiencing?
> 
> Perhaps we will just have to Behr down this winter and deal with it.
> 
> ...


You're hot to tot.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> ...nor the last thread created about it...


And not the last thread where I'll point out the irony of PCs trying to squeeze the last dime of profit out of their suppliers, then turning around and whining about clients asking THEM to "sharpen your pencil".


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm pretty sure my paint costs go up every year. Not by much, but I don't think this is necessarily new information. 

It would be like me starting a thread in a few months "Gas prices going up for summer". It's just something I expect. Now getting your clients to understand that paint costs more than ten years ago, that's another story.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

Hines Painting said:


> I'm pretty sure my paint costs go up every year. Not by much, but I don't think this is necessarily new information. It would be like me starting a thread in a few months "Gas prices going up for summer". It's just something I expect. Now getting your clients to understand that paint costs more than ten years ago, that's another story.


Much different than gas. I would imagine you spend more on paint then on gas, so an increase will effect you more. Paint is not like gas with respect to increases either. The increase should not ever be hidden or snuck onto your account. If a price goes up and you do not know about it let them know your not pleased. I agree, it is inevitable that prices will have an upward trend, but there needs to be a game plan from the suppliers introducing the increase to their customers. 

As for introducing the topic to clients......good luck. We may just have to "grin and Behr it".


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

This tread is behrly tolerable...


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've also heard - but I can't say from who - that next year around May/June, it's going to get hot outside. I can't say how hot and it may be different for everyone, but trust me this is from a reliable source.

Also hearing some rumblings about trees and forested areas becoming more green around the same time but I'll have to get back to ya on that one.

Your welcome.

The Reliable Source


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

epretot said:


> Is the price increase a result of the Behr market we are currently experiencing?
> 
> Perhaps we will just have to Behr down this winter and deal with it.
> 
> ...


you're behrly funny :blink:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Using the gas price fluctuation analogy, and since it's the homeowner who pays for paint anyways, less money will go to paint then gas. So, there should hardly be a major impact for the homeowner in terms of paint prices.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

In other words, an average homeowner will spend less then $500.00 dollars on paint every three years, in contrast to the $1,500.00 they'll be spending on gas year after year.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Using the "I don't pay for paint, the homeowner does," analogy, paint price increases (or any other operating expense increase) don't freak me out too much. It's just the cost of doing business.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> Using the "I don't pay for paint, the homeowner does," analogy, paint price increases (or any other operating expense increase) don't freak me out too much. It's just the cost of doing business.


It seems pretty simple to understand. And if the homeowner doesn't understand that, or if the contractor fails to communicate the higher costs of paint to the homeowner, then why in the Helen Keller would you still do a paint job for them?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

epretot said:


> Is the price increase a result of the Behr market we are currently experiencing?
> 
> Perhaps we will just have to Behr down this winter and deal with it.
> 
> ...


Behry well:thumbsup:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

BehrSpar said:


> I can not say who I heard this from, which I am sure you can understand. Just wanted to get the word out there. Look for increases in January, hopefully later than earlier. I have not heard about percentage increase, but I would imagine a solid 5-8% is expected.
> 
> Words of advice would be work with your supplier. Ask him/her to hold price on core products and take full increase on others. If they can't hold the price, hopefully they will work with you. Raw material increases have calmed down so it is hard to predict exactly what increase percentage will be, or how far out next one will be.
> 
> -The Behr


I just thanked a post so I could unthank it. This internet stuff is some fun sh!t when ya get the hang of it!:thumbsup:


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## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

Recently told by SW they are having increase in January.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

I hope we don't have any of you guys complaining on here when the increases take effect. I mean....especially if you guys don't even buy paint. 

I completely agree an increase doesn't mean much for a homeowner, but the homeowner probably isn't buying paint daily. There would be no reason to be involved in a conversation like this if you were a homeowner. 

And if your a new construction painter please ignore everything CA is saying. His philosophy only applies to residential repainters who pass the material cost along to home owner. I could see a new construction guy saying to his builder "I'm going to need 5% more bc of price increases". He would get laughed off a job site. Good thing price increases don't matter to most of you.

-The Great and Reliable BehrSpar


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

BehrSpar said:


> I hope we don't have any of you guys complaining on here when the increases take effect. I mean....especially if you guys don't even buy paint.
> 
> I completely agree an increase doesn't mean much for a homeowner, but the homeowner probably isn't buying paint daily. There would be no reason to be involved in a conversation like this if you were a homeowner.
> 
> ...


Never has, Not when a painter uses a real paint store. Not a walmart model for selling paint. Also when I worked NC it was always Time and Materials is what I charged not a set price. and yes the customer still bought the paint. aka through the bank. so I guess you did not know how to bid for a T&M job? and please quit being a cheer leader for the box stores.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Yup. I only paint rentals. Customer literally buys and has paint delivered. I just tell them how much.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

If, as it has been mentioned before, the price of gas goes up, my prices go up. Same for paint. Whomever is paying for my services, pays. I don't charge now what I charged for a job 2 years ago....because prices across the board go up. Lesson concluded.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

BehrSpar said:


> I hope we don't have any of you guys complaining on here when the increases take effect. I mean....especially if you guys don't even buy paint.
> 
> I completely agree an increase doesn't mean much for a homeowner, but the homeowner probably isn't buying paint daily. There would be no reason to be involved in a conversation like this if you were a homeowner.
> 
> ...


cf. "new construction", "builder's flat", and "race to the bottom"


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

BehrSpar said:


> I hope we don't have any of you guys complaining on here when the increases take effect. I mean....especially if you guys don't even buy paint.
> 
> I completely agree an increase doesn't mean much for a homeowner, but the homeowner probably isn't buying paint daily. There would be no reason to be involved in a conversation like this if you were a homeowner.
> 
> ...


Everyone works on the same business model where the cost of goods is factored into the final price. I am not saying there aren't knuckleheads out there that dip into their own profits and eat price increases but they can't possibly last long. If someone is chasing GC's that don't expect material price increases from time to time, they may want to look at their customer list and make some changes.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

BehrSpar said:


> I hope we don't have any of you guys complaining on here when the increases take effect. I mean....especially if you guys don't even buy paint.
> 
> I completely agree an increase doesn't mean much for a homeowner, but the homeowner probably isn't buying paint daily. There would be no reason to be involved in a conversation like this if you were a homeowner.
> 
> ...


So BS,

Where do you recover the cost increase of materials if you don't expect the customer to pay? Do _you _have to work faster?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> So BS,
> 
> Where do you recover the cost increase of materials if you don't expect the customer to pay? Do _you _have to work faster?


From what I've seen in the NC market the last few years, the solution is to add more water. I'll swear some of these guys are getting 1000 ft^2/ gallon.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

CApainter said:


> So BS, Where do you recover the cost increase of materials if you don't expect the customer to pay? Do you have to work faster?


What is right answer:
Work faster?
Cheaper labor?
Higher bids?
Cheaper materials?
Adding water?
Skip a coat?

I do not think any single contractor could answer the question appropriately for all others. I personally believe that profits should not come from anything besides labor. Especially in the repaint community. Make a buck or two on your paint (get $30 for a $28 gallon of paint), but bid the job correctly. Put yourself in the position to make money from the start. For residential repainters I do not believe a 5% increase will effect the business too much. For new construction guys it is a different story.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

BehrSpar said:


> What is right answer:
> Work faster?
> Cheaper labor?
> Higher bids?
> ...


Your kidding right ?


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Your kidding right ?


If a Behr laughs in woods.......does he make a sound?

RRRRRROOOOOOOAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

....


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I know I've gone out on this limb before, but I agree with the idea of profits coming from labor, not materials. 

Looking at the last few jobs of ours, paint costs ranged between 2.5 and 5 percent of the total price. I don't see how marking that up has much significant impact on profit, especially if our labor is priced appropriately to cover profit and overhead.
.

To me, the notion of marking up materials is a little like playing the shell game with clients: "see if you can find where I'm hiding my profit".


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Love all the chest pounding "We pass it all onto the HO"
If that is true why are we making the same wages we were 30 years ago?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Gough said:


> I know I've gone out on this limb before, but I agree with the idea of profits coming from labor, not materials.
> 
> Looking at the last few jobs of ours, paint costs ranged between 2.5 and 5 percent of the total price. I don't see how marking that up has much significant impact on profit, especially if our labor is priced appropriately to cover profit and overhead.
> .
> ...


Wow, that is an awesome labor markup. So on a residential repaint using 25 gallons of say, $40 per gallon paint, you can bill $20,000-$40,000 for the job?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> Wow, that is an awesome labor markup. So on a residential repaint using 25 gallons of say, $40 per gallon paint, you can bill $20,000-$40,000 for the job?


'zactly.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

Bender said:


> Love all the chest pounding "We pass it all onto the HO" If that is true why are we making the same wages we were 30 years ago?


We're you making more profit from 2002-2005?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> Love all the chest pounding "We pass it all onto the HO"
> If that is true why are we making the same wages we were 30 years ago?


I'm confused, and for good reason, I'm only an employee. But, I still don't understand why materials like paint can't be fully charged to a customer. I mean, it's not like you're charging for drop clothes that aren't being left with the home owner. Paint is as vital to the painting process as lumber is to the building process. When the cost of lumber goes up, do builders eat those extra material costs, use less wood, or charge accordingly?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

It seems that this discussion is going from projected higher costs for paint, to whether profits are generally made on materials and how those projected increases will affect those who profit off that model.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Now I get it!

Some of you guys are troubled about how the price increases will affect the premiums you charge for materials, and how that hurts your bottom line!

Look at me! I'm learning!, I'm learning!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So now that I understand the situation a little better, I think its a bad idea to rely on material overhead to supplement ones projected gross income.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Bender said:


> Love all the chest pounding "We pass it all onto the HO" If that is true why are we making the same wages we were 30 years ago?


I got a guy that blows out my lawn sprinklers. Been doing it for about ten years or so. It's $50 bucks. Been that the whole time. u know gas went up, his compressor rental went up and so on. Two twenties and a ten still.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

CApainter said:


> So now that I understand the situation a little better, I think its a bad idea to rely on material overhead to supplement ones projected gross income.


In the end, net profit is what matters. Different ways to get there. I may try free labor but a 1000% markup on materials some time. Or free paint, but increase my labor rate by $20/hr.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Oden said:


> I got a guy that blows out my lawn sprinklers. Been doing it for about ten years or so. It's $50 bucks. Been that the whole time. u know gas went up, his compressor rental went up and so on. Two twenties and a ten still.


Well, to be fair he is probably collecting unemployment, food stamps, and welfare also. That's why it's 2 twenties and a ten.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Paint going up will probably actually make me a little more money, rather than cost me. I have a set profit percentage that gets applied to materials and labor. So as those go up, profit goes up.

It will improve my gross sales and my total profit (but not profit margin) which looks good on paper all the way around.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

"Mark up". That's the word I was looking for!

I can understand a mark up on material if a contractor provides the ordering, P/U, and delivery of the material. But, unless gas prices are also rising to the point where those services, p/u etc., need to be adjusted, a basic material cost increase should be expected and forwarded to the homeowner. Souldn't it? Or should the painting contractor not be expected to be compensated for his time and effort when securing material in an attempt to keep those rising costs of paint affordable to the homeowner?


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

that is why i like bidding time and materials this is the hourly rate. this is how long it will take this is how much primer, paint and other one time use items I will use this is what you pay. simple end of story the customer pays the labor and buys the paint they get the same receipt as I do i don't need to mark up. on a T&M job. if they want a flat rate different ball game. and most construction work is T&M. so with that I still beat the behr on price.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Today, as I was walking across the barn yard, I heard from a reliable source that the sky was falling, 

I can not say who I heard this from, which I am sure you can understand. Just wanted to get the word out there. Look for falling sky in January.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> "Mark up". That's the word I was looking for!
> 
> I can understand a mark up on material if a contractor provides the ordering, P/U, and delivery of the material. But, unless gas prices are also rising to the point where those services, p/u etc., need to be adjusted, a *basic material cost increase should be expected and forwarded to the homeowner. Shouldn't it?* Or should the painting contractor not be expected to be compensated for his time and effort when securing material in an attempt to keep those rising costs of paint affordable to the homeowner?



Of course it should be passed on and not only should the homeowner pay the increase but more than the actual increase to maintain margin. (markup and margin are different. A 33% markup = 25% margin). Simple way to look at is you take your markup percentage and apply it to the increase. 

Two questions for my own curiosity. How much (in dollars) does a crew go through in coatings per year? 

Contractor's that don't markup materials, do your customers get a better price per gallon than they can on their own at a S.W. or do you just mark it up to the same retail price an H.O. would pay?


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> Contractor's that don't markup materials, do your customers get a better price per gallon than they can on their own at a S.W. or do you just mark it up to the same retail price an H.O. would pay?


I have always just rounded my cost up to an (the next) even dollar amount and charged homeowners that amount. Essentially passing on my discount. But, next year I'm going to do it differently. 

Not sure how yet, but I am.

I started implementing increases on the bid I did today. I just priced all the material at $31.50 per gallon + tax (customers don't know that, they just see the total price) and my profit was added on top of that. Might be higher than that next year but I'm not positive. I'm really focusing on trying to learn my numbers while I'm slow so I'm not just winging it this year.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Of course it should be passed on and not only should the homeowner pay the increase but more than the actual increase to maintain margin. (markup and margin are different. A 33% markup = 25% margin). Simple way to look at is you take your markup percentage and apply it to the increase.
> 
> Two questions for my own curiosity. How much (in dollars) does a crew go through in coatings per year?
> 
> Contractor's that don't markup materials, do your customers get a better price per gallon than they can on their own at a S.W. or do you just mark it up to the same retail price an H.O. would pay?


Not exactly sure $ amount for each crew, but I run a crew and my brother runs the other, and In 2012 I spent 68,000 @ PPG Porter, now that includes sundries but I estimate around 10k for them maybe less.
I don't mark up my paint, they pay what I pay. I will just add the cost of p/u to estimate. 1 or 2 hours maybe more depends on the scope of work.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Northwest_painter said:


> that is why i like bidding time and materials this is the hourly rate. this is how long it will take this is how much primer, paint and other one time use items I will use this is what you pay. simple end of story the customer pays the labor and buys the paint they get the same receipt as I do i don't need to mark up. on a T&M job. if they want a flat rate different ball game. and most construction work is T&M. so with that I still beat the behr on price.


Most construction work is TM ?? Not here its not. I'm a business I mark up my material on every job we do commercial , residential doesn't matter . I was taught that from painters who were businessmen and who were successful . Btw time and material work there is a markup on the material your entitled to it .


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

When we do a T & M job, the clients pay what I pay, including tax.

As I mentioned upthread, materials are often a small percentage of our total cost. On some jobs, high-prep/restoration/decorative painting/etc., the cost is almost trivial. If we've got two of us spending 6 weeks to prep a job that takes 8-10 gallons of paint, I'm not seeing the point marking up the paint.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Northwest_painter said:


> that is why i like bidding time and materials this is the hourly rate. this is how long it will take this is how much primer, paint and other one time use items I will use this is what you pay. simple end of story the customer pays the labor and buys the paint they get the same receipt as I do i don't need to mark up. on a T&M job. if they want a flat rate different ball game. and most construction work is T&M. so with that I still beat the behr on price.


behrfold.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

skinne9 said:


> Not exactly sure $ amount for each crew, but I run a crew and my brother runs the other, and In 2012 I spent 68,000 @ PPG Porter, now that includes sundries but I estimate around 10k for them maybe less.
> I don't mark up my paint, they pay what I pay. I will just add the cost of p/u to estimate. 1 or 2 hours maybe more depends on the scope of work.


Thank you for the response, I really had no idea and needed a starting point. 

What if I told you you could add another $200,000 in gross billing next year without working another hour, hiring another person or taking out a single ad? What if I told you that you wouldn't be charging customers more than $5 per gallon over what they would pay if they wasted time, gas and energy going to the store themselves? 

Would you believe it?


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

For me i give them 20% off retail of paint. My discount from porters paint is more but they give me that because of the amount i buy, same with Ben Moore

But with SW  it doesn't matter that you spend a_ fortune there every week
just let a HO walk in on a blue bucket or all the other special and they save 45% off

they buy 6 gal a year and save more than a contractor 
WTF
_


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Today, as I was walking across the barn yard, I heard from a reliable source that the sky was falling,
> 
> I can not say who I heard this from, which I am sure you can understand. Just wanted to get the word out there. Look for falling sky in January.


Glad to hear that Tambasco is still on this side of the soil.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Thank you for the response, I really had no idea and needed a starting point.
> 
> What if I told you you could add another $200,000 in gross billing next year without working another hour, hiring another person or taking out a single ad? What if I told you that you wouldn't be charging customers more than $5 per gallon over what they would pay if they wasted time, gas and energy going to the store themselves?
> 
> Would you believe it?


I believe you. 

Now tell me how.

I have never marked up paint. But if marking it up can account for 200,000.00 then I'm listening.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Thank you for the response, I really had no idea and needed a starting point.
> 
> What if I told you you could add another $200,000 in gross billing next year without working another hour, hiring another person or taking out a single ad? What if I told you that you wouldn't be charging customers more than $5 per gallon over what they would pay if they wasted time, gas and energy going to the store themselves?
> 
> Would you believe it?


Yeah, the product I buy the most is speed-hide eggshell I get it for 11$ a gal, it retails for like 35$ I think, so if could add 40$ a gallon instead of 11 than absolutely. I think thats what your saying. That's a hard sell to make consistently. Just wanted to add I'm a big fan of your stickies I have read them all more than once.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> Thank you for the response, I really had no idea and needed a starting point.
> 
> What if I told you you could add another $200,000 in gross billing next year without working another hour, hiring another person or taking out a single ad? What if I told you that you wouldn't be charging customers more than $5 per gallon over what they would pay if they wasted time, gas and energy going to the store themselves?
> 
> Would you believe it?


Ok, tell me more.

Are you saying you think we should charge retail + markup profit on top of that?


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gough said:


> When we do a T & M job, the clients pay what I pay, including tax.
> 
> As I mentioned upthread, materials are often a small percentage of our total cost. On some jobs, high-prep/restoration/decorative painting/etc., the cost is almost trivial. If we've got two of us spending 6 weeks to prep a job that takes 8-10 gallons of paint, I'm not seeing the point marking up the paint.


Every contractor I have known or know whether a roofer, Electrian , HVAC, or my appliance guy marks up materials it's part of doing business and making a profit. Even in Commerical work when I do a TM job I'm allowed to markup my material. So if you markup your materials 25 percent in every job you do your not seeing the profit? What cost is trivial if you pay $25 or $50 a gallon use 100 gallons or 1000 it's nice to have the money for the time you spend putting in figuring the estimate , ordering the material picking it up making sure it's all the right sheens, right colors right products why do that for free??


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Every contractor I have known or know whether a roofer, Electrian , HVAC, or my appliance guy marks up materials it's part of doing business and making a profit. Even in Commerical work when I do a TM job I'm allowed to markup my material. So if you markup your materials 25 percent in every job you do your not seeing the profit? What cost is trivial if you pay $25 or $50 a gallon use 100 gallons or 1000 it's nice to have the money for the time you spend putting in figuring the estimate , ordering the material picking it up making sure it's all the right sheens, right colors right products why do that for free??


Semantics.
I have a buddy who charges $30 an hour and marks up materials. We charge $40 and don't mark up. Whats the difference? He still needs to sell a $1000 job for $1000 and so do I.

At the end of the day I still say we are all slave to the "going rate".


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Every contractor I have known or know whether a roofer, Electrian , HVAC, or my appliance guy marks up materials it's part of doing business and making a profit. Even in Commerical work when I do a TM job I'm allowed to markup my material. So if you markup your materials 25 percent in every job you do your not seeing the profit? What cost is trivial if you pay $25 or $50 a gallon use 100 gallons or 1000 it's nice to have the money for the time you spend putting in figuring the estimate , ordering the material picking it up making sure it's all the right sheens, right colors right products why do that for free??


First off, the time figuring up the estimate, ordering materials, etc, is all figured into the estimate.

For the work we do, a markup on materials is not a reliable source of profit. For us, making sure the overhead and profit is covered by our labor charges works better. The example that I mentioned upthread is not unusual for us.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Bender said:


> Semantics.
> I have a buddy who charges $30 an hour and marks up materials. We charge $40 and don't mark up. Whats the difference? He still needs to sell a $1000 job for $1000 and so do I.
> 
> At the end of the day I still say we are all slave to the "going rate".



In a sense we are slave to the "going rate", but I think it is tiered based on the quality of our respective companies. 

Mercedes and Daewoo both have their own "going rate"; but one is still a Mercedes.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Hines Painting said:


> In a sense we are slave to the "going rate", but I think it is tiered based on the quality of our respective companies.
> 
> Mercedes and Daewoo both have their own "going rate"; but one is still a Mercedes.


For a long time, I've had the sense that the idea of marking up materials is a way to get around that "going rate" issue. It's a way to make a reasonable profit without the clients wondering why you're charging out your new helper at $45/hr.

Fundamentally, as Bender has pointed out, it all comes out in the wash. The single most important part is to have overhead and profit thoroughly built into your pricing structure.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't mark up materials similar to a few others. Just wasn't worth it for me. I'm busy pretty much all year round after I added refinishing to my painting and find I have to pass work to a friend. I will generally quote my customers with a lump sum that covers most worst case scenarios, third coats all sundries etc. Then I will add that I pass along my discount and replace the materials budget amount with materials actuals at the end. The receipts are placed in job folder for customers to see. Occasionally I add that my bill will either be the lump I quoted or my all inclusive X amount per hour - whichever is less is what they pay. Which translates to clean walls and trim, furniture moved, switch plates removed all before I have arrived. My customers are saving money by helping me to be out sooner. 99% of the time the bill comes in less then the estimate. This keeps my profits predictable, generates referrals, and allows me to keep schedule with my work load.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Hines Painting said:


> Ok, tell me more.
> 
> Are you saying you think we should charge retail + markup profit on top of that?


Nope just on top of what you pay. The store may charge them $52 +tax, you charge the customer $58.

Markup in various tradesman I have spoken to varies from 35% to 150%. I'll use the low end to show how much painters can be losing by not marking up materials.

If you spent $58,000 in materials (using the numbers skinne mentioned) and marked up 35% you would have charged your customers $78,300 for paint/primer/stain.. give or take a $20,000 profit. Since you get a contractor discount, the customer may only end up paying $5-$6 more per gallon than if he/she went to the store and bought the paint themselves. It's an easy sell. who wants to schlep to a store, wait around then lug home a bunch of cans of paint?

If materials are 10% of your gross billing, you would have to sell and perform another $200,000 in work to make that same profit. So you don't actually have to do another $200K, you skip right to making that extra profit. Your overhead is already factored into your other numbers, the extra $20,000 goes right into your income.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros;453679
If materials are 10% of your gross billing said:


> Or you could just add that $20K to the labor charges. For fixed price work, what would be the difference?
> 
> I can see it with T&M if the customers are raising a stink about paying $75/$45 for painter/helper, respectively. Still,we prefer that approach. Besides, it makes the math easier.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> Nope just on top of what you pay. The store may charge them $52 +tax, you charge the customer $58.
> 
> Markup in various tradesman I have spoken to varies from 35% to 150%. I'll use the low end to show how much painters can be losing by not marking up materials.
> 
> ...


Ultimately, doesn't it come down to what people will pay depending on how you've sold yourself and what your competition is selling at? If I maintain the same # of billable hours in the year but increase my price 20% for materials then I'll make more money. But chances are my 20% increase will decrease my billable hours, increasing my overhead percentage. The challenge is always the same, charge more and convince the customer why you're worth it. Whether its an increase in profit, material markup or overhead I don't really see the difference. Now if I can markup 20% and maintain my same profit but not work as hard for it then why not. Personally, I've always markup'd up materials 20% but in the end i'm usually middle to upper tier compared to other bids.

I'm not an economist, nor do I have my business down to an exact science like you do. This is more me thinking out loud and trying to figure out if I'm wrong here.


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## 101 Painters (Sep 21, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> Of course it should be passed on and not only should the homeowner pay the increase but more than the actual increase to maintain margin. (markup and margin are different. A 33% markup = 25% margin). Simple way to look at is you take your markup percentage and apply it to the increase.
> 
> Two questions for my own curiosity. How much (in dollars) does a crew go through in coatings per year?
> 
> Contractor's that don't markup materials, do your customers get a better price per gallon than they can on their own at a S.W. or do you just mark it up to the same retail price an H.O. would pay?


One of our unique selling points is you get to purchase the paint at our bulk buying discount. Our estimates are based on estimated hours of work. Materials usually account for 12 to 17%. Its a refined but simple formula. Really, we kinda back into the final number. Once I know the total hours, I plug that in and the spreadsheet populates including matls, labor, profit margin and o/h. Final price pops out. Now its my turn to justify (sell) that number to the potential client.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gough said:


> First off, the time figuring up the estimate, ordering materials, etc, is all figured into the estimate.
> 
> For the work we do, a markup on materials is not a reliable source of profit. For us, making sure the overhead and profit is covered by our labor charges works better. The example that I mentioned upthread is not unusual for us.


Well I was taught long ago and through the years including every business and painting seminar I ever attended to to mark up materials as a source of profit. If my old man spent few hours taking off a plan and putting materials together to send a proposal he was entitled to any and all profit . If your way works for you that's what matters. To me all I see on this thread is guys giving profit away and working for $30-40 dollars an hour in 2013. Personal if I work for the going rate around here ill be riding around in a busted up van with dirty whites and crying I'm broke. My hourly rate covers my OH and profit and then I add material with my markup on every single gallon of paint we use . All the painting books from PDCA, Craftsman, MIcaheal Stone, Dan Gleason, etc can't all be wrong?


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Well I was taught long ago and through the years including every business and painting seminar I ever attended to to mark up materials as a source of profit. If my old man spent few hours taking off a plan and putting materials together to send a proposal he was entitled to any and all profit . If your way works for you that's what matters. To me all I see on this thread is guys giving profit away and working for $30-40 dollars an hour in 2013. Personal if I work for the going rate around here ill be riding around in a busted up van with dirty whites and crying I'm broke. My hourly rate covers my OH and profit and then I add material with my markup on every single gallon of paint we use . All the painting books from PDCA, Craftsman, MIcaheal Stone, Dan Gleason, etc can't all be wrong?


I don't think it comes down to being right or wrong. It comes down to whatever works for each person. 

For me trying to make money off paint just isn't worth it or consistency. 
Doing Murals , designs, stripes, faux, jobs where there's mostly brush work, hvlp spraying cabinet boxes etc are areas where you use less materials. 
Homes in a subdivision, apartments, or anything that needs me to use an airless I use a lot more materials 
Giving materials at cost is a technique/tool I use to help land jobs. When I want to make more I will lump sum the job and work more efficiently and possibly bring in a helper. If I needed more than that I'd train up a crew and focus on volume. I've heard the same from books and seminars but I don't believe there is a catch all formula. I think you pull from seminars / books the parts you can use with your personality, geographical market, business style and make them your own.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

So think about a roofing company. Their materials are 80% of their bids. How do you mark that up but remain competitive?


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Danahy said:


> I don't think it comes down to being right or wrong. It comes down to whatever works for each person.
> 
> For me trying to make money off paint just isn't worth it or consistency.
> Doing Murals , designs, stripes, faux, jobs where there's mostly brush work, hvlp spraying cabinet boxes etc are areas where you use less materials.
> ...


I pull from books, seminars , history and successful people what worked for them. It's the way business was and us taught at least in my world. Like I said if your system is successful and your making money more power to ya.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Don't get greedy.
With our contractors discounts we can mark up materials and still be considerably lower than retail. Works for us and the customer.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Well I was taught long ago and through the years including every business and painting seminar I ever attended to to mark up materials as a source of profit. If my old man spent few hours taking off a plan and putting materials together to send a proposal he was entitled to any and all profit . If your way works for you that's what matters. To me all I see on this thread is guys giving profit away and working for $30-40 dollars an hour in 2013. Personal if I work for the going rate around here ill be riding around in a busted up van with dirty whites and crying I'm broke. My hourly rate covers my OH and profit and then I add material with my markup on every single gallon of paint we use . All the painting books from PDCA, Craftsman, MIcaheal Stone, Dan Gleason, etc can't all be wrong?


There's the rub.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I'll respond in a broader sense to some of the thoughts and questions. 

There really is no right or wrong with material markup because ultimately its about the final number you charge the customer. There could be tax benefits but there are too many variables to get into that discussion.

The main benefit is the selling feature. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you are charging or how you get to your price unless customers are booking work. Breaking out a material cost is an approach I like because it helps customers decide value which often leads to closing more sales. To not make this too long I'll start a new thread on the topic.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Well I was taught long ago and through the years including every business and painting seminar I ever attended to to mark up materials as a source of profit. If my old man spent few hours taking off a plan and putting materials together to send a proposal he was entitled to any and all profit . If your way works for you that's what matters. To me all I see on this thread is guys giving profit away and working for $30-40 dollars an hour in 2013. Personal if I work for the going rate around here ill be riding around in a busted up van with dirty whites and crying I'm broke. My hourly rate covers my OH and profit and then I add material with my markup on every single gallon of paint we use . All the painting books from PDCA, Craftsman, MIcaheal Stone, Dan Gleason, etc can't all be wrong?


 There are some good books and articles out there on capacity (labor) based markup versus volume based systems, especially the ones by Michael Stone. For the varied work we do, it became clear early on that using a capacity based system works better for our company.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Regardless of how you do it its an interesting thread.
Threads like this bring us all up


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> I'll respond in a broader sense to some of the thoughts and questions.
> 
> There really is no right or wrong with material markup because ultimately its about the final number you charge the customer. There could be tax benefits but there are too many variables to get into that discussion.
> 
> The main benefit is the selling feature. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you are charging or how you get to your price unless customers are booking work. Breaking out a material cost is an approach I like because it helps customers decide value which often leads to closing more sales. To not make this too long I'll start a new thread on the topic.


So essentially your saying marking up the materials is more of a game played to influence the motivations of a consumer buying a service. Marking up materials isn't a way to make more profit, just a different way of showing your profit/cost to a prospective buyer, and possibly some tax benefits. I've always broken down the material/labor cost for the customer...I assumed that was status quo.

*Take this example*
I'm a customer looking for a service and I'm comparing two different bids. Both use duration paint and one painter is charging 750 for duration while the other charges 1000 for duration. The final total for both bids comes to around 5000. For many people, it may not make a difference how you got to the final number. For some it might. I might look at those numbers and think the guy who charges 750 for paint may have a better relationship with his supplier, he might hire and pay higher skilled employees thus resulting in a better service. Duration paint is a commodity, so why should I as the consumer pay more than what the other guy is charging. 

I guess right now I don't really see the positive for a customer who sees two similar bids and 1 charges more for the same material.

As I said before I mark up 20 percent for materials so I'm sort of challenging my own strategy.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Alltimate Painting said:


> So essentially your saying marking up the materials is more of a game played to influence the motivations of a consumer buying a service. Marking up materials isn't a way to make more profit, just a different way of showing your profit/cost to a prospective buyer, and possibly some tax benefits. I've always broken down the material/labor cost for the customer...I assumed that was status quo.
> 
> Take this example
> I'm a customer looking for a service and I'm comparing two different bids. Both use duration paint and one painter is charging 750 for duration while the other charges 1000 for duration. The final total for both bids comes to around 5000. For many people, it may not make a difference how you got to the final number. For some it might. I might look at those numbers and think the guy who charges 750 for paint may have a better relationship with his supplier, he might hire and pay higher skilled employees thus resulting in a better service. Duration paint is a commodity, so why should I as the consumer pay more than what the other guy is charging.
> ...


I don't break out my proposals for my customers not status quo here unless your looking to get beat up on your price? I also don't work for customers who want to supply materials for the job never ever turns out well we tried it. I'm a professional painting contractor running a business . I sell a service to the customer I give them a detailed proposal and warranty with labor & material included in the scope of work. Like I said if your way works your making money living large that's all that counts.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I don't break out my proposals for my customers not status quo here unless your looking to get beat up on your price? I also don't work for customers who want to supply materials for the job never ever turns out well we tried it. I'm a professional painting contractor running a business . I sell a service to the customer I give them a detailed proposal and warranty with labor & material included in the scope of work. Like I said if your way works your making money living large that's all that counts.


I've never really experienced someone trying to beat me up on price because my materials are separated from my labor. I think people who beat people up on price are gonna do that regardless. Some people don't feel like they're getting a deal unless they get a deal.

I've always separated each line item for the customer and they see what I'm charging for each service. It was never really on purpose, it just worked out that way in quickbooks but if just giving them a total with a scrope of work summary works than I'd be open to that as well.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

I've never broken down materials and labor. I quote 1 price for a complete job.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> I've never broken down materials and labor. I quote 1 price for a complete job.


Yeah I guess I assumed it was broken down, guess I was wrong. I wonder if breaking it down for the customer just makes it more complicated than is necessary. However, with this new software I'm trying out it breaks out options or add ons for the customer to tick check boxes...theres no other way to do it than break it down in that case.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Yeah I guess I assumed it was broken down, guess I was wrong. I wonder if breaking it down for the customer just makes it more complicated than is necessary. However, with this new software I'm trying out it breaks out options or add ons for the customer to tick check boxes...theres no other way to do it than break it down in that case.


What software is that?


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> What software is that?


Quote Roller....I've gone through about a 100 apps in the past month and it was between brats, pep cloud and quote roller. I'm still testin it out but I'm starting to like it. The options feature is a nice add on but I think the other apps do that as well..not sure about brat's. I'll put in options for the color consult, maybe additional bedrooms, options between paint grades or maybe add something in that they didnt think of like knockdown ceilings or something. Those optional items arent automatically selected so they don't affect the total price unless they're ticked.

People seem to like the options and they're broken down. There's no other way to do it.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Alltimate Painting said:


> So essentially your saying marking up the materials is more of a game played to influence the motivations of a consumer buying a service. Marking up materials isn't a way to make more profit, just a different way of showing your profit/cost to a prospective buyer, and possibly some tax benefits. I've always broken down the material/labor cost for the customer...I assumed that was status quo.
> 
> *Take this example*
> I'm a customer looking for a service and I'm comparing two different bids. Both use duration paint and one painter is charging 750 for duration while the other charges 1000 for duration. The final total for both bids comes to around 5000. For many people, it may not make a difference how you got to the final number. For some it might. I might look at those numbers and think the guy who charges 750 for paint may have a better relationship with his supplier, he might hire and pay higher skilled employees thus resulting in a better service. Duration paint is a commodity, so why should I as the consumer pay more than what the other guy is charging.
> ...


I started a lengthier thread and then after reading it, couldn't really justify getting into a big schpiel because there are variables that make it different for every business owner and, as I mentioned, there isn't necessarily a right or wrong to how you achieve getting paid for materials. I could show someone in a mock sales presentation but would need twenty paragraphs to put it in print.

I am a firm believer in breaking out material cost for exactly the reason you mentioned.. they are a commodity. It allows the customer to see the value of what I am charging for labor. Some may believe it is a detriment to let the customer see the labor. I find the transparency works to my advantage. Many customers have appreciated the breakdown and have mentioned that is why I was rewarded the job. I don't charge anyone substantially more than what they would pay for the same item online or at a store and that still allows my 40% material markup. (because of bulk discounting)

Here is where there may be a difference between adding the costs to labor versus material markup. Where does a person get that number from if not using material markup? Is it the same add-on if you pick up one gallon or thirty? Is mileage factored? How about true acquisition time? I'm guessing many that are not using legitimate markup as a factor just make up a number to throw in. It is not going to make or break a business, that's just too sloppy for me. Material markup is standard in every business. There is a reason for that. Its predictable, systematic and trackable.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Quote Roller....I've gone through about a 100 apps in the past month and it was between brats, pep cloud and quote roller. I'm still testin it out but I'm starting to like it. The options feature is a nice add on but I think the other apps do that as well..not sure about brat's. I'll put in options for the color consult, maybe additional bedrooms, options between paint grades or maybe add something in that they didnt think of like knockdown ceilings or something. Those optional items arent automatically selected so they don't affect the total price unless they're ticked.
> 
> People seem to like the options and they're broken down. There's no other way to do it.


I'm guessing it's done through email and/or cloud based?

So is this what a typical bid process is like?

Go look at the job + measure it + whatever sales process you use while there -> Go home, punch it all into quote roller + email a proposal where all aspects are broke down -> Customer selects which aspects of the job they want you to do

I watched the video for it awhile ago, but didn't really provide much insight.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Quote Roller....I've gone through about a 100 apps in the past month and it was between brats, pep cloud and quote roller. I'm still testin it out but I'm starting to like it. The options feature is a nice add on but I think the other apps do that as well..not sure about brat's. I'll put in options for the color consult, maybe additional bedrooms, options between paint grades or maybe add something in that they didnt think of like knockdown ceilings or something. Those optional items arent automatically selected so they don't affect the total price unless they're ticked. People seem to like the options and they're broken down. There's no other way to do it.


If you have an apple device and have numbers installed look at the template called "checklist total". Fairly simple. Click the box and the price you have loaded will add to the bottom. The beauty is you can customize it to do exactly what you want. I found this about a month ago. And what I personally like is it can be made as a customer friendly worksheet on my iPad, all kinds of other company personal tabs for invoices / PO's / Work Orders etc. My business isn't that complicated to warrant anything too elaborate but I have a friend who's been looking for years. He owns a kitchen cabinet shop. Employs 6 guys, a sales staff and utilizes a bunch of subs as needed (including myself when I can fit him in). His company does everything from framing to painting and everything in between with respects to remodeling and renovating. Usually has at least 8-15 projects running at any given time. From what I can tell it's generally an operational nightmare. The company uses all types of software but the one thing that's missing is a program that brings all the info together. 
So as I'm staring at this little basic template one evening last week I start to create a spreadsheet for him knowing a few of his basic needs. 
- Consistent pricing amongst sales
- The company uses iPads for everything (lots of cloud services/syncing). 
- he's looking for a check system to use with a customer. That flows in the order that the work would actually be performed. 
- have an estimate auto generated behind the scenes ready to send
- have all the PO's generated behind the scenes for each sub or department that shows the amount being paid and NOT the amount being charged to the HO. 
- have a schedule and timeline create itself behind the scenes that can be shared with the customer during the estimate and then laid out on the master schedule at the shop. 
- all this and more by clicking a check box and occasionally dropping in the odd lf/sqft where needed. 
Since I have the audiobook "the goal" burnt into my mind from listening to it a dozen times (operations management bible IMO), "the Toyota way", e-myth (all of them), the 4 hour work week etc etc. I'm just in the mood to tackle this for him. I love to see my friends succeed. 

So in my spare time I'm at this point (see pic) 
ignore the numbers and names. They are fictional and will be up to the company to plug in thier own numbers. They also prefer their line items to be lumped for the actual invoice/estimate as they are constantly getting picked apart. So I'm working on that using headings and totals only. 
Using headings and totals only (see pic) 
Far from being complete but as I said if you're looking for an app with options. 

For myself personally I break it down by room. In fact when I do a quote I will try to just quote the whole house in one go. That way the customer can call me each and every time they can afford to have me come out (repeat work ftw). Saves me gas, time and money driving out there a bunch of times, and allows me to spend time with my kids and my wife. I'm comfortable enough with my pricing to honor my quotes up to two years or more. If materials prices rise after a few years I could care less - I bill them at cost which inherently has a built in inflation benefit. If a customer wants to negotiate they have 3 easy choices
1. Accept it
2. Remove items you can't afford
3. Pound Salt and find someone else

Since I'm writing a novel apparently, I'll add that what I took home from the seminars were adding value and charge what you need. So after spending a lot of time reading at PT and CT before that, novels, tradesman, YouTube. Community College. I'm constantly changing things for the better. I have never found anyone successful that I'd like to copy. But I found a lot of good ideas from many sources and people to form a good enough frankin-plan and let in evolve from there. 
If PT was around 20 yrs ago during my hard knock era. I imagine I'd be the one making books or hosting seminars today. Pt is a Great place to hang, contribute. Learn and hopefully leave some nuggets for the painters that come after us.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> I'm guessing it's done through email and/or cloud based?
> 
> So is this what a typical bid process is like?
> 
> ...


My bid process will probably change as I get used to it but right now that's pretty much it. Measure, sales, and email proposal. You can create templates to speed things up. So for example I have a template saved right now for interior painting. It includes a short intro/needs analysis/solutions a little video about the service. 2nd page is the price, 3rd is references, 4th is insurance, 5th is terms, 6th is company history. I think once I get the tablet I've been waiting on the estimate could be completed on the spot pretty quick. I'd probably just need 10 minutes on my own after taking the measurements and talking with the customer. 

Pep cloud and I think brat's probably does the estimating on the spot a little better. With those your not taking notes separately. You put your measurements in and it streamlines the process a little better. I personally just liked the presentation of the quote roller a little better plus there are analytics. It'll tell me if someone looked at the quote, how long, which pages, and my closing percentage.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Danahy said:


> So in my spare time I'm at this point (see pic)
> ignore the numbers and names. They are fictional and will be up to the company to plug in thier own numbers. They also prefer their line items to be lumped for the actual invoice/estimate as they are constantly getting picked apart. So I'm working on that using headings and totals only.
> Using headings and totals only (see pic)
> Far from being complete but as I said if you're looking for an app with options.


That sounds pretty interesting. I'd be curious to check it out. That guys pretty lucky you're doing all that work for free. I suppose he's your test dummie and you're thinking about selling the templates in the future?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I don't break out my proposals for my customers not status quo here unless your looking to get beat up on your price? I also don't work for customers who want to supply materials for the job never ever turns out well we tried it. I'm a professional painting contractor running a business . I sell a service to the customer I give them a detailed proposal and warranty with labor & material included in the scope of work. Like I said if your way works your making money living large that's all that counts.


We don't break them out either. That only seems to open the door to more haggling. The first line in our proposals is, "We propose to furnish all materials and perform all labor to...blah,blah, blah."

I think a lot of us have learned that lesson about letting the client supply paint. A big part of what they're hiring us for is the knowledge and expertise in choosing the best materials for the job.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Alltimate Painting said:


> That sounds pretty interesting. I'd be curious to check it out. That guys pretty lucky you're doing all that work for free. I suppose he's your test dummie and you're thinking about selling the templates in the future?


I can't see myself selling something like that. I'm happy painting, and this is really just a pet project to help my friend personally.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> There is a reason for that. Its predictable, systematic and trackable.




And the reason we don't use it is that, on our jobs, it's not predictable.

For a number of years, there've been discussions at JLC, both in print and on their forum, about those types of jobs where applying the markup to labor is a more reliable approach to pricing.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Gough said:


> And the reason we don't use it is that, on our jobs, it's not predictable.
> 
> For a number of years, there've been discussions at JLC, both in print and on their forum, about those types of jobs where applying the markup to labor is a more reliable approach to pricing.


I could be misreading the posts, but I think you are talking about markup to cover overhead and Ken is just talking about marking it up for the sake of profit. Not to cover anything, just to make more money.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Gough said:


> And the reason we don't use it is that, on our jobs, it's not predictable.
> 
> For a number of years, there've been discussions at JLC, both in print and on their forum, about those types of jobs where applying the markup to labor is a more reliable approach to pricing.


Wouldn't you have to at least account for the net profit in your markup? If I have a $1000 job and it takes $700 in labor and $300 in materials my companies profit should be $150 if i'm aiming for 15%. If I'm only attaching my profit to the labor wouldn't it vary quite a bit from job to job?

So in the above example I'd need a profit of around 21% on my labor to meet my goal of 15%. Do you just fluctuate your profit percentage on your labor rate from job to job? Or do you just average it out and make less net profit on some jobs and more on others?

I should have taken accounting more seriously in college. I was too busy wilin out, killin brain cells.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Hines Painting said:


> I could be misreading the posts, but I think you are talking about markup to cover overhead and Ken is just talking about marking it up for the sake of profit. Not to cover anything, just to make more money.


We cover overhead and profit in our labor. Material costs cover such a range in our work that they aren't a reliable profit source. If we were doing production work day in, day out, that would be a different story.

Also, Ken breaks out his materials in his bids, we don't, so it really does all come out in the wash.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Wouldn't you have to at least account for the net profit in your markup? If I have a $1000 job and it takes $700 in labor and $300 in materials my companies profit should be $150 if i'm aiming for 15%. If I'm only attaching my profit to the labor wouldn't it vary quite a bit from job to job?
> 
> So in the above example I'd need a profit of around 21% on my labor to meet my goal of 15%. Do you just fluctuate your profit percentage on your labor rate from job to job? Or do you just average it out and make less net profit on some jobs and more on others?
> 
> I should have taken accounting more seriously in college. I was too busy wilin out, killin brain cells.


Our labor is a much more consistent percentage of the job. It might vary from 90-98%, (a 9% change), while materials would vary from 2-10% (500%)


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Gough said:


> And the reason we don't use it is that, on our jobs, it's not predictable.
> 
> For a number of years, there've been discussions at JLC, both in print and on their forum, about those types of jobs where applying the markup to labor is a more reliable approach to pricing.


I don't understand how it is not predictable, Gough? At any point in the year you look at your material expenses and know exactly what you are making in profit from them. Again, not saying you're way is any better or worse, just questioning how you believe it to be not predictable. 

Also curious as to how the markup to labor more reliable? Paint coverage can change from wall to wall. How does labor compensate for that? Where do you add the markup to labor on a job to compensate for material profit? Is it a per hour charge.. what if there are more guys on a project? I think Alltimate is asking the same question as to how you know your true margin. 

I wasn't privvy to other conversation on the topic so I am always interested to hear varying opinions.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Hines Painting said:


> I could be misreading the posts, but I think you are talking about markup to cover overhead and Ken is just talking about marking it up for the sake of profit. Not to cover anything, just to make more money.


Is there a difference between them? Maximizing profit should be the goal of every business person. The one thing that every nickel I charge covers.. my salary. I'd like that to keep increasing as I get older.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> Is there a difference between them? Maximizing profit should be the goal of every business person. The one thing that every nickel I charge covers.. my salary. I'd like that to keep increasing as I get older.


You do this for money?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> I don't understand how it is not predictable, Gough? At any point in the year you look at your material expenses and know exactly what you are making in profit from them. Again, not saying you're way is any better or worse, just questioning how you believe it to be not predictable.
> 
> Also curious as to how the markup to labor more reliable? Paint coverage can change from wall to wall. How does labor compensate for that? Where do you add the markup to labor on a job to compensate for material profit? Is it a per hour charge.. what if there are more guys on a project? I think Alltimate is asking the same question as to how you know your true margin.
> 
> I wasn't privvy to other conversation on the topic so I am always interested to hear varying opinions.


Ken, my point is that, for us, the labor percentage is a much more stable number. Using half as much material from one job to the next has little impact on the profit.

I didn't realize, or had forgotten, until your recent post, that you breakout materials in your bids. What it all comes down to is summed up in your latest post, thanks.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> Is there a difference between them? Maximizing profit should be the goal of every business person. The one thing that every nickel I charge covers.. my salary. I'd like that to keep increasing as I get older.


Well, I have overhead factored into my hourly rate. But then I add a profit percentage (to materials and my hourly rate) that I can adjust depending on how busy I am, where the work is coming from etc.

I figure company profit to be separate from my salary and more like extra monies that will be used at a later date. Sometimes for my bonus, sometimes for when equipment goes down unexpectedly, etc.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Gough said:


> Our labor is a much more consistent percentage of the job. It might vary from 90-98%, (a 9% change), while materials would vary from 2-10% (500%)


During a slow patch some years back I took something like what you just mentioned and broke my existing labour rate out eight ways to Sunday. I was looking to find out on which day of the 20 working days in a month do I break even with my fixed and variable o/h and personal costs. Turned out to be around days 15-16. Didn't leave a lot of room for rain days, sick days, winter slow downs etc. Since then I have raised my labour rates and have got it down to 12-13. My goal is 10


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Gough said:


> Ken, my point is that, for us, the labor percentage is a much more stable number. Using half as much material from one job to the next has little impact on the profit.
> 
> I didn't realize, or had forgotten, until your recent post, that you breakout materials in your bids. What it all comes down to is summed up in your latest post, thanks.


It hasnt fully soaked in yet but its close. I think I'll have to look into the JLC that you referenced.

To me it sounds like there would be very little stability issues if you're getting profit from both materials and labor. I can see stability issues if you're trying to attach overhead to the materials, that's seems pretty complicated. It's probably the right way to do it though. I don't see why someone who needs 1 gallon of paint should get charged so much less than the person who needs 20 gallons. Its the same trip, mileage, etc.

Either way, its nice to see two profitable companies (assuming) go about it two different ways.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't like to refer to other sites while posting in interesting threads like this, but this site got me to thinking that mark ups aren't necessarily as unscrupulous as I originally thought, when you consider their "service factor" purpose that's supplemental to labor and materials.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Let's say that the hourly rate includes job costs, overhead and profit.

The materials may be ordered by the sales person (OH salary accounted for) 
Purchased by an OH person like an Operations Manager (salary accounted for),
or a crew leader (signed in & accounted field labour of a job that makes budget), 

then who cares about the materials, they are just a job cost to be controlled.
Dial in your desired company profit and hourly rate as you see appropriate.
Every hour worked recovers overhead and hopefully makes your desired profit.

Too much emphasis is put on materials (10-11% historically for us). 
Just get money for them anyway you see fit.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I don't like to refer to other sites while posting in interesting threads like this, but this site got me to thinking that mark ups aren't necessarily as unscrupulous as I originally thought, when you consider their "service factor" purpose that's supplemental to labor and materials.


Good post there on that link and many here post on other forums eh. My take here is many put there material markup into there hourly rate or direct expense to there virile or fixed OH. Maybe I'm nuts and all who came before me but its the way I was taught. Many years ago in some very cool round table PDCA chapter both national and county we discussed this topic. Times have changed I guess but I find it a lot easier to account for my sundries and paint as a separate markup. And allot more than 10% as well . Yes I do lose lots of work but I would lose it anyway when all the customer is looking for is a low bid.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

You guys are definitely fascinating. No one has answered my questions about where the numbers come from. Going back to the original post about price increases in material, how do you guys that don't worry about markup factor those increases? I already know the answer but again curiosity makes me ask. I follow standard business models and I have never heard of any trade from HVAC to auto mechanics that didn't markup materials. take a look at your next invoice from your mechanic and see what you pay for a gallon of antifreeze or an alternator.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I don't like to refer to other sites while posting in interesting threads like this, but this site got me to thinking that mark ups aren't necessarily as unscrupulous as I originally thought, when you consider their "service factor" purpose that's supplemental to labor and materials.


I went through most of that thread, it was pretty interesting. Biggest thing I took away from it was how many of those guys used material markup as part of their overhead and how some use a sliding scale. Bit of a different business though, their materials make up a larger portion of their total price. Not to say it couldn't work for a painter though.

With the sliding scale (using the below #'s) a purchase of $75.00 would be billed at $196.00 where as a purchase of $750 would result in a $1162.50 bill. His system is setup for purchasing building materials so its not quite the same but it is interesting. If I were to use a system like that I'd definitely have to switch my approach to how I write up my bids....no more separating or I'd be dealing with a mutiny.

Either way, if one were to account for part of their overhead expense in their materials then they would need to deduct that from labor overhead some way I would think? Or it is kept separate from overhead completely and assigned to a direct expense as COGS. I think that is what nick said. 

For me, its simpler to account for the overhead as a part of labor and then markup materials to my net profit goal. Or simply markup total price to include a profit. The overhead won't be accurately depicted by the cost of the purchase versus the cost to make the purchase but in the end its all averaged out and gets paid for anyways. Although, assigning cost to the job materials is probably more accurate as long as you can figure out a good system for it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> You guys are definitely fascinating. No one has answered my questions about where the numbers come from. Going back to the original post about price increases in material, how do you guys that don't worry about markup factor those increases? I already know the answer but again curiosity makes me ask. I follow standard business models and I have never heard of any trade from HVAC to auto mechanics that didn't markup materials. take a look at your next invoice from your mechanic and see what you pay for a gallon of antifreeze or an alternator.


Ken, my mechanic gives me the invoice from his supplier

But seriously, how we handle price increases depends on the time horizon of the bid. Further out with more uncertainty, I'll factor in an inflation- based number for materials. Shorter time out, our supplier will hold the line.

Since you break out materials, are they still part of your fixed-priced contract?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

SW called this morning and told me about a 6% increase.
I laughed and thought, "No, your losing a customer."


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

Bender said:


> SW called this morning and told me about a 6% increase.
> I laughed and thought, "No, your losing a customer."


Go see the guys at HD. They can Behr your pains. I agree that a 6% increase is rubbish. Who does SW think they are selling to........."professional painters"? We are all really just homeowners deep down.


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## LouLewyLewis (Sep 3, 2009)

This thread seams to be one of the better threads on PT. Great insight into profits and markups... along with everyone knowing their numbers in business to be a growing business.
Some of us are more thick headed as to what makes a profitable business...
After 30+ years in the painting industry whether a employee or a employer as we all have been.
Years back in my yesteryears I started adding $5.00 to each one of my employees billable wages per hr. I learned long ago that employees want incentives and appreciation. The extra $5.00 is for lost time per hr. due to lost production for what ever reason.
Each month it is used for pizzas, or sodas, new brushes, and even bonuses for work well done and highly appreciated. And the company gets some of it for added profit. Employees they are such a fickle bunch. Just our way to say Thank You for a job well done.
Just food for thought...


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

I hear there's a meeting tomorrow that may confirm this price hike rumor...


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

BehrSpar said:


> Go see the guys at HD. They can Behr your pains. I agree that a 6% increase is rubbish. Who does SW think they are selling to........."professional painters"? We are all really just homeowners deep down.


Or, if you want to maintain your sanity and reputation, then Benjamin Moore or a regional brand might be a better fit.


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Or, if you want to maintain your sanity and reputation, then Benjamin Moore or a regional brand might be a better fit.


Ben-Moore is going to see some increases to the store, which will probably get passed down to most customers. Each company is going to release one this year. SW seems to always be first when making and increase and other companies follow. To be honest I was hoping it would be closer to 9%....


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

BehrSpar said:


> Ben-Moore is going to see some increases to the store, which will probably get passed down to most customers. Each company is going to release one this year. SW seems to always be first when making and increase and other companies follow. To be honest I was hoping it would be closer to 9%....


Were you a cheerleader in school?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Price increases are a normal part of doing business. If the price of your favorite paint isn't gradually increasing to keep up with inflation, then I suspected the manufacturer is cutting cost some how, most likely through using lower quality raw materials.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Price increases are a normal part of doing business. If the price of your favorite paint isn't gradually increasing to keep up with inflation, then I suspected the manufacturer is cutting cost some how, most likely through using lower quality raw materials.


Kind of like those guys doing NC for the same prices as they did in 1990.


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## mastr (Apr 15, 2011)

SW hasn't had a price increase in 2 years. Using the website below it shows that inflation increased 3.8% since 2011. I will be welcoming it because "fly by night" painters will bleed.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> Were you a cheerleader in school?


no he was the mascot


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

mastr said:


> SW hasn't had a price increase in 2 years. Using the website below it shows that inflation increased 3.8% since 2011. I will be welcoming it because "fly by night" painters will bleed.
> 
> http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


If paint accounts for 12% of your revenue a 6% increase in the cost of paint will add .7% to the bottom line. On a $1000 job thats 7 bucks. It'll prob take a long time to bleed out at that rate. Not sayin its nothin cause it adds up but fly by nights probably have more things working against them.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> Kind of like those guys doing NC for the same prices as they did in 1990.


Lacking leaps in efficiency and/or technology, I don't see how that could be a successful business model.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Lacking leaps in efficiency and/or technology, I don't see how that could be a successful business model.


I don't think their wives, who have good jobs, understand it either. The ones around here just seem to hang on year after year, slowly circling the drain. Eventually, they get hired on at a local university. That seems to be where the bankrupt PCs end up around here. Or they get a more honest job, selling used cars.


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

BehrSpar said:


> Go see the guys at HD. They can Behr your pains. I agree that a 6% increase is rubbish. Who does SW think they are selling to........."professional painters"? We are all really just homeowners deep down.


I went to home depot for paint two times when I first started. I didn't know any better. It took 40 minutes to get a can of paint the first time, only 1 other person there waiting. I had a question about primer...they had no idea what I was talking about. Ok, i thought maybe they were new, will be better next time. Second time different person, it took 20 mins and they gave me the wrong sheen. Eggshell instead of flat. That was enough for me. Only thing in the paint dept I get at HD is spray paint. 
It takes less than 5 mins at SW and no longer than 10 at BM to get a gallon. 
Also might add that HD is the worst thing that can happen to professional painters and home owners. Their commercials make HO's think they can paint with inferior products that give "professional" results which in turn devalues our profession with the "anyone can do it" mentality. You don't see carpenters installing trim or millwork in their commercials. 
I'm a professional painter and a homeowner and can tell you I'm a more a professional deep down bc that's what allows me to be a homeowner.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> You guys are definitely fascinating. No one has answered my questions about where the numbers come from. Going back to the original post about price increases in material, how do you guys that don't worry about markup factor those increases? I already know the answer but again curiosity makes me ask. I follow standard business models and I have never heard of any trade from HVAC to auto mechanics that didn't markup materials. take a look at your next invoice from your mechanic and see what you pay for a gallon of antifreeze or an alternator.


Its not really about adjusting the numbers up to reflect increases. I think its an American ideology, a credo, to do _more with less_.
A trend that shows itself in the GMO food we buy, the caliber of the services we receive, and the cardboard homes we buy.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> Its not really about adjusting the numbers up to reflect increases. I think its an American ideology, a credo, to do _more with less_.
> A trend that shows itself in the GMO food we buy, the caliber of the services we receive, and the cardboard homes we buy.


I know. It's awful. 

I have to seek out those not swept up by that credo. (For instance., I eat Paleo and pay a little more for a good customer experience) 

I raise my prices every year to cover COL increases. Last year and this year, I kept them the same as more competitors entered the market in a slower economy. I have to recapture that plus the usual COL increases over the next few years. 

I definitely do not eat increases though. If something goes up a dollar, I raise it $1.33 to maintain my 25% material margin.


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

MKap said:


> I went to home depot for paint two times when I first started. I didn't know any better. It took 40 minutes to get a can of paint the first time, only 1 other person there waiting. I had a question about primer...they had no idea what I was talking about. Ok, i thought maybe they were new, will be better next time. Second time different person, it took 20 mins and they gave me the wrong sheen. Eggshell instead of flat. That was enough for me. Only thing in the paint dept I get at HD is spray paint.
> It takes less than 5 mins at SW and no longer than 10 at BM to get a gallon.
> Also might add that HD is the worst thing that can happen to professional painters and home owners. Their commercials make HO's think they can paint with inferior products that give "professional" results which in turn devalues our profession with the "anyone can do it" mentality. You don't see carpenters installing trim or millwork in their commercials.
> I'm a professional painter and a homeowner and can tell you I'm a more a professional deep down bc that's what allows me to be a homeowner.


With some common sense, 30 min of research on painttalk and some youtube videos a homeowner can achieve results pretty close to a professional for average wall painting.....efficiency/convenience/color selection separates us from the homeowner. I find it harder to sell someone on the quality of the paint job rather than the quality of the service I'm going to provide compared to my competition. Such as cleanliness, communication, etc.

I'd like to think the doctors house we painted today could paint his own walls if he set his mind to it otherwise I don't have much faith in the healthcare system...well that's another issue. Fine finishing, restorative type work not included, I'm talking straight walls. You don't see HD commercials of people sprayin out cabinets. That'd be a harder sell. People that want to put the work in themselves shouldn't be targeted anyways.

When someone calls and says "um...I started painting my blank and ..." or "i painted the lower half, i just need the high stuff done" I just wanna hang the phone up right then and there but instead I gotta ease out of it professionally....just takes longer.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Alltimate Painting said:


> With some common sense, 30 min of research on painttalk and some youtube videos a homeowner can achieve results pretty close to a professional for average wall painting.....efficiency/convenience/color selection separates us from the homeowner. I find it harder to sell someone on the quality of the paint job rather than the quality of the service I'm going to provide compared to my competition. Such as cleanliness, communication, etc.
> 
> I'd like to think the doctors house we painted today could paint his own walls if he set his mind to it otherwise I don't have much faith in the healthcare system...well that's another issue. Fine finishing, restorative type work not included, I'm talking straight walls. You don't see HD commercials of people sprayin out cabinets. That'd be a harder sell. People that want to put the work in themselves shouldn't be targeted anyways.
> 
> When someone calls and says "um...I started painting my blank and ..." or "i painted the lower half, i just need the high stuff done" I just wanna hang the phone up right then and there but instead I gotta ease out of it professionally....just takes longer.


This I's part of our issue....those "we painted the lower..can you finish the upper?" is a good percentage of our calls..I couldn't afford to turn down that....that's my market to a tee... people don't hire us because they want too...they hirr us because they have too....


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Alltimate Painting said:


> With some common sense, 30 min of research on painttalk and some youtube videos *a homeowner can achieve results pretty close to a professional for average wall painting.*....efficiency/convenience/color selection separates us from the homeowner. I find it harder to sell someone on the quality of the paint job rather than the quality of the service I'm going to provide compared to my competition. Such as cleanliness, communication, etc.
> 
> I'd like to think the doctors house we painted today could paint his own walls if he set his mind to it otherwise I don't have much faith in the healthcare system...well that's another issue. Fine finishing, restorative type work not included, I'm talking straight walls. You don't see HD commercials of people sprayin out cabinets. That'd be a harder sell. People that want to put the work in themselves shouldn't be targeted anyways.
> 
> When someone calls and says "um...I started painting my blank and ..." or "i painted the lower half, i just need the high stuff done" I just wanna hang the phone up right then and there but instead I gotta ease out of it professionally....just takes longer.


Thank goodness the majority of our clients aren't looking for 'average wall painting'. hew:


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## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> This I's part of our issue....those "we painted the lower..can you finish the upper?" is a good percentage of our calls..I couldn't afford to turn down that....that's my market to a tee... people don't hire us because they want too...they hirr us because they have too....


If thats truly the only market you have to serve then theres not much else you can do but structure your business around that or get out but you probably realize that. 

As a whole, if 2/5 people buy on price alone what percentage of those people fall into the category...."I need the high stuff painted". You're probably looking at 4/5, no real data, just a hunch. If those people are buying on price alone the only way to differentiate oneself from the competition is running a bare bones business meaning cheap labor. You can't sacrifice too much on tools because you still have to be efficient, prob cant justify brands like festool. You'd have to do whatever you can to still make a profit but beat everyone else on price. That might include doing some shady things along the way like cash under the table or thinning the sh** outta paint. If you're above that then that's great but your competition might not be.

I'm not knocking that business model, in the end its all about profit. Last I checked mcdonalds competes on price but they make a lotta money. 

I used to go on every single bid. Figured if I wasnt then I wasnt devoting myself to my business. Now I qualify every lead, get them talking about the project to see if its a good fit so I don't have to waste my time or theirs. If its an internet lead, I might go as far as punching their address in zillow to see the value of their home. If I have some extra time because I turned downed 15% of my leads that week, i'll focus that energy on marketing and trying to find more people that fit my business model.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm closing this thread.

It's now closed.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

epretot said:


> I'm closing this thread.
> 
> It's now closed.


I think you have to magically change the color of your user name before you can do that.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Alltimate Painting said:


> If thats truly the only market you have to serve then theres not much else you can do but structure your business around that or get out but you probably realize that.
> 
> As a whole, if 2/5 people buy on price alone what percentage of those people fall into the category...."I need the high stuff painted". You're probably looking at 4/5, no real data, just a hunch. If those people are buying on price alone the only way to differentiate oneself from the competition is running a bare bones business meaning cheap labor. You can't sacrifice too much on tools because you still have to be efficient, prob cant justify brands like festool. You'd have to do whatever you can to still make a profit but beat everyone else on price. That might include doing some shady things along the way like cash under the table or thinning the sh** outta paint. If you're above that then that's great but your competition might not be.
> 
> ...


Bingo. You sound like you have a good grasp on what works.

Catering to that 2 out of five price-shopping crowd is a dead end. There is always going to be someone cheaper. I can't compete in that bottom feeder pool.. the proverbial race to the bottom.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Just out of curiosity what percent of your average job is materials Ken? It would seem to me its easier to mark up a small percent as opposed to a large percent of total job cost.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Not much anymore, Dan since I have gotten away from deck work.. 8% on average. The dollar value of the materials does come into play and most would probably use a sliding scale. (plumber can markup 300% on a fitting or valve whereas an HVAC guy may only markup 30% on a new heater).


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Alltimate Painting said:


> If thats truly the only market you have to serve then theres not much else you can do but structure your business around that or get out but you probably realize that.
> 
> As a whole, if 2/5 people buy on price alone what percentage of those people fall into the category...."I need the high stuff painted". You're probably looking at 4/5, no real data, just a hunch. If those people are buying on price alone the only way to differentiate oneself from the competition is running a bare bones business meaning cheap labor. You can't sacrifice too much on tools because you still have to be efficient, prob cant justify brands like festool. You'd have to do whatever you can to still make a profit but beat everyone else on price. That might include doing some shady things along the way like cash under the table or thinning the sh** outta paint. If you're above that then that's great but your competition might not be.
> 
> ...


4/5 is pretty close...I do turn some down but not much especially in peak season I bid almost all leads that come in....I don't have a real..true high end area like most...it may be a neighborhood here or there and the best places are an hour easy...

My idea is why bid if your not giving out "winning" numbers....I just bid some walmarts and sams clubs and had to drop our number by over 20 k easy....


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> 4/5 is pretty close...I do turn some down but not much especially in peak season I bid almost all leads that come in....I don't have a real..true high end area like most...it may be a neighborhood here or there and the best places are an hour easy...
> 
> My idea is why bid if your not giving out "winning" numbers....I just bid some walmarts and sams clubs and had to drop our number by over 20 k easy....


Richmond If you want to work in the high end areas, you gotta travel to be rich mann. The gold coast of Connecticut is over 45 mins with no traffic. I travel that distance every other day. 

I read somewhere that Walmart only allows a 10% profit margin to companies they hire? Do they ask for your margin on paint supplied or do they supply that?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

MKap said:


> Richmond If you want to work in the high end areas, you gotta travel to be rich mann. The gold coast of Connecticut is over 45 mins with no traffic. I travel that distance every other day.
> 
> I read somewhere that Walmart only allows a 10% profit margin to companies they hire? Do they ask for your margin on paint supplied or do they supply that?


I've worked for walmart on several occasions, they never asked about profit margins.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've worked for walmart on several occasions, they never asked about profit margins.


I've heard both...I don't know how they could legally limit your profit? And I do travel an hour and there are good areas just not like a lot of guys on here talk about......


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've worked for walmart on several occasions, they never asked about profit margins.


I'm trying to look up where I read that...cant find the source. Maybe it's just that their margins are low so they look to hire those with lower margins as well? 
Either way their margins are lower than anyone bc their production/supply is higher than everyone's. A material price increase for them would be passed on to everyone without question. 
Without getting into all things political and back to the topic, material cost increases hurt the smaller businesses the most.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Gough said:


> I think you have to magically change the color of your user name before you can do that.


I would be a terrible Mod.

Or a great one depending on ones perspective.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> I've heard both...I don't know how they could legally limit your profit? And I do travel an hour and there are good areas just not like a lot of guys on here talk about......


I'm just hoping I can get my pricing right...as to a winning number...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

epretot said:


> I would be a terrible Mod.
> 
> Or a great one depending on ones perspective.




Join the club.

SERIOUSLY, there will be some openings soon.

Like to be stalked, harassed, threatened, and plagiarized ?

Left to drift upon the ocean without a life boat ?


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

daArch said:


> Join the club.
> 
> SERIOUSLY, there will be some openings soon
> Like to be stalked, harassed, threatened, and plagiarized ?
> ...


I'm in!! Lol...


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## BehrSpar (Nov 22, 2013)

Looks like PPG is next. Bad news Behrs


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

MKap said:


> Richmond If you want to work in the high end areas, you gotta travel to be rich mann. The gold coast of Connecticut is over 45 mins with no traffic. I travel that distance every other day.
> 
> I read somewhere that Walmart only allows a 10% profit margin to companies they hire? Do they ask for your margin on paint supplied or do they supply that?


How about traveling to Virginia then there would be to richmond Virginias.:whistling2:f


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

BehrSpar said:


> View attachment 21193
> 
> 
> Looks like PPG is next. Bad news Behrs


A Tio2 price increase?
That shouldn't effect Behr at all:whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> A Tio2 price increase?
> That shouldn't effect Behr at all:whistling2:


Lol!

But Natura...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> A Tio2 price increase?
> That shouldn't effect Behr at all:whistling2:


The good news is that chalk (calcium carbonate) prices are relatively stable....

Like a small price bump in PPG's prices would make me switch to Behr. I just wish we had a full-line PPG dealer around here.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Hey TJ
I saw an article today saying Clark & Kensington was crowned best paint ever by CR. Weren't you asking about that stuff a while ago?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Damon T said:


> Hey TJ
> I saw an article today saying Clark & Kensington was crowned best paint ever by CR. Weren't you asking about that stuff a while ago?


Lol yep. Its been just enough time that I forgot about it!


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