# One or Two Coats?



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

This came up a bit on the recent Aura thread but I was wondering how many of you routinely bid two coats versus one and what are your rationales for doing so? Obviously there are many variables to consider but from what I observe there are some who regularly bid at one coat and others at two.
I only do interior, usually residential repaints which are inhabited and have furnishings and I mostly brush and roll. I'll spray when popcorn ceilings are involved but that's about it. I almost always bid at two coats. My jobs usually involve some priming and a change of color and I feel two coats just provides a richer, deeper look as well as providing more protection. I've never had a customer disagree with my recommendation of two coats. When I explain that the cost of prep is the same for one or two coats, the extra cost makes sense to them. Even landlords can be sold on the value when you stress the protection aspect. I have lost some jobs over the years based on the price of my two coat bid compared to someone else's one coat number but it's been a relatively rare occurrence. 
If I'm doing a surface in the same color and sheen, and it's in relatively good shape, then I may bid at one coat. Ceilings are another area where one coat is often sufficient since the color and sheen are often not being changed and protection isn't an issue. But even if color and sheen are not changing I'll recommend a second coat if it's an area that gets lots of wear and tear, like like hallways and stairwells, or if moisture is an issue such as bathrooms, kitchen, utility rooms, etc.. If the house has kids or large pets, a second coats is also often my recommendation.
I don't feel this is an issue that involves a painter's skill in application or the ability of the product to cover well but one where I am evaluating the situation and providing the customer with the best final result I can. There are times where I've looked at a surface after the first coat and thought it couldn't look any better but I still put on that second coat because that's what the situation deserves and that's what the contract calls for. 
When I did exteriors I always bid at two coats for pretty much the same reasons I listed above.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

a lot of different variables to consider when answering a question like this ........I would say mathematically speaking I generally apply 2 coats now that's not to say that some jobs get 1 even though I bid for 2 .......and on that same token some get 3 when I have it bid at 2  i just get the damn job done ...............woot woot lol 

my old boss used to say that the 2 coat bid was just ''insurance'' incase the paint didnt cover in 1 ..........i have to agree with him there


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> .......and on that same token some get 3 when I have it bid at 2


Like when  red is involved? I usually bid that at two coats but with an optional third coat price just to be safe.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

.5 coats, the others are extra.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Two coats 98% of the time...If there is a color change it's always 2 coats...Sometimes when there is extensive prep and mudding I'll do 2 coats with no color change.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Always two coats. Have never had anybody happy with one.


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

super paint. the work horse:blink:2 coats always except same over same:yes:. a lot of times i dont know the color until the night before. with 2 coats im always good.i look my clients right in the eye and tell them. some say you can get away with 1 coat. and that's what it usually is, getting away. my clients pay for 2 they get 2. you know i often think i wish the first coat could go as fast as the second


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## scott65 (Jul 11, 2011)

I put in my proposal apply paint to cover. This usually requires two coats, but sometimes one will do and other times three or more are needed.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

scott65 said:


> I put in my proposal apply paint to cover. This usually requires two coats, but sometimes one will do and other times three or more are needed.


your version of ''it covered'' and a HO'ers version are 2 different things ............youll learn this soon...........


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

The reason I posted this thread was I often see references to one coat coverage. I've been at this a long time and experience tells me it isn't very common. Granted, there are times when one will do the job but I almost always bid for two. Sometimes, like when red is involved, I'll quote for a third. 
I never want the customer to look at my "finished" work and suggest more coats are necessary. As the pro it's my job to let them know up front what it's going to take (and why), bid accordingly, and do the job properly. Never had a customer complain yet about the end result.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> your version of ''it covered'' and a HO'ers version are 2 different things ............youll learn this soon...........




Yeah unless you define the term "to coverage" on your contract, this seems to be opening the door for disputes. Most painters put "to coverage" because they hope to collect a two coat price for one coat.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I spec for two coats unless it is a specified maintenance coat.


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## scott65 (Jul 11, 2011)

It is always the customers version of covered that counts, they are the ones that must be happy. If you bid two coats and the old color shows thru arent you going to make them happy and apply another coat? I simply propose to "cover" so as to avoid arguments over how many coats are on the surface. I always inspect my work before I present it as finished to my customers. You only need one bad reference to hurt your reputation in a small town. This is what I have "learned".


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Gibberish45 said:


> Yeah unless you define the term "to coverage" on your contract, this seems to be opening the door for disputes. Most painters put "to coverage" because they hope to collect a two coat price for one coat.


I use the "coat to cover" section as well. I pretty much always need to cut twice even with Aura, however rolling can sometimes be done once. There are so many variables and Aura is still relatively new to me so I can't always say with certainly what the Aura job will take.

Generally with Aura, the color is either there or it's not. Either the drying of the paint has condensed to the point where you can see the prior coat...or not. It's not like some other paints where you can completely cover a wall and still see the prior color through dried paint.

At the end of the day, we are there to change the COLOR of the walls. I used to lay out the number of coats, then after one coat less than what was spec'd, I'm looking very closely and I've got 100% coverage - and I'm wondering why I'm coming back the next day. When I can haul in a bunch of painters and HOs and give them a swatch and they can't tell whether I've applied one coat or five, it's time to put down the brush and move on to the next job.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

2 coats, in order to insure:


1) complete coverage, no pinholes or holidays (it happens.)
2) a true/solid color 
3) a uniform sheen
4) manufacturer's warranty specs are met
5) my reputation remains flawlusss


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> 2 coats, in order to insure:
> 
> 
> 1) complete coverage, no pinholes or holidays (it happens.)
> ...


Ditto. I bid for two coats and apply two coats. And maybe its just me, but I would never try to get away with one coat when charging for two.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I get a kick outta talking with a potential client and describe my scope of two finish coats. Sometimes they will say something like "well we painting the kids bedroom and it only took one coat". 

Sometimes I wanna go walk to the room and peer inside, and then turn to them and say "yep, thats why it looks like "


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I get a kick outta talking with a potential client and describe my scope of two finish coats. Sometimes they will say something like "well we painting the kids bedroom and it only took one coat".
> 
> Sometimes I wanna go walk to the room and peer inside, and then turn to them and say "yep, thats why it looks like "


I was recently bidding as a sub on a remodeling job. The HOs (a couple in their late sixties) questioned my bid of a primer coat over the new texture and two full top coats because they had "always been able to do it in one". The lead carpenter and I were looking over the walls of the master bedroom - pink over white. Everywhere you looked you could see nine inch swaths of dark pink overlapping lighter pink and some that were nearly white. If you didn't know better you might of thought they'd gone for that effect on purpose. We both almost got headaches from all the head shaking and eye rolling we were doing. I didn't get the job because they decided to do their own painting on all the nice and expensive remodeled areas that were being built for them.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

researchhound said:


> I was recently bidding as a sub on a remodeling job. The HOs (a couple in their late sixties) questioned my bid of a primer coat over the new texture and two full top coats because they had "always been able to do it in one". The lead carpenter and I were looking over the walls of the master bedroom - pink over white. Everywhere you looked you could see nine inch swaths of dark pink overlapping lighter pink and some that were nearly white. If you didn't know better you might of thought they'd gone for that effect on purpose. We both almost got headaches from all the head shaking and eye rolling we were doing. I didn't get the job because they decided to do their own painting on all the nice and expensive remodeled areas that were being built for them.



at the risk of offending a potential client, i will firmly suggest that they DO NOT decide to do it themselves based on their previous attempt to ruin their home.
as we are going over their work, for demonstration purposes of course.

it's my way of mind screwing H.O.'s for wasting my time in the past and future...resolve!


most clients i have understand the error of their 'spendthrift'ways, and hire me.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> at the risk of offending a potential client, i will firmly suggest that they DO NOT decide to do it themselves based on their previous attempt to ruin their home.
> as we are going over their work, for demonstration purposes of course.
> 
> it's my way of mind screwing H.O.'s for wasting my time in the past and future...resolve!
> ...


If this would have been me bidding directly with the client I would have most definitley explained why a professional job would be more beneficial to them. Working as a sub with a remodeling firm that becomes the responsibility of the contractor and lead carpenter - both of whom attempted to do so. Believe it became a matter of the HOs trying to bring down the total cost of the remodel which, IMO, only makes it worse. Spend $60,000 to have a remodel done and then put your own crappy paint job on it. Heard later that it did indeed look like s--t because they did it at the very end - after the cabinets, fixtures, trim, etc., were all in instead of doing it before all that was installed. No fixing stupid. :no:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

scott65 said:


> It is always the customers version of covered that counts, they are the ones that must be happy. If you bid two coats and the old color shows thru arent you going to make them happy and apply another coat? I simply propose to "cover" so as to avoid arguments over how many coats are on the surface. I always inspect my work before I present it as finished to my customers. You only need one bad reference to hurt your reputation in a small town. This is what I have "learned".



I take your word for it and that makes you a minority. As an experienced painter you generally know when something needs two or three coats right? Why not specify and give a more accurate quote? That way you don't screw the client OR yourself. Just my opinion.


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## scott65 (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Gibberish, As you know there are many variables as to how paint will cover previously painted walls. The same paint might cover well in one room that had flat paint on the walls, and not so well in another that had semi-gloss. Also customers have been known to change their minds on color mid-job. While you are right I generally know,how many coats each wall will take- and I use this to determine my price,It could get a little confusing to break down each surface that might be different. I prefer to just reassure the customer that all the paint I will apply will be to "cover "to provide the true color and sheen as they would expect. Most likely I was referred to them by a previous customer,and they have seen my work. Anyone can say anything on a bid, but the truth is on the wall.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Scott65 -
I respect your choice to do it that way. It isn't how I bid but that doesn't make it wrong. It's what works best for you and your clients that's important. If there was a problem with it then you'd have changed how you do it by now. 
I only bid labor on my jobs. What ever the paint and primer costs are is added to the labor cost at the end of the job. Not too many guys do it that way but it's always worked well for me and my customers and that's all that counts.


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## scott65 (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks Researchhound, What is important is that you care about the quality of work you provide your customers. A hack painter will always find a way to cheat people- and will not last very long. The fact that your proposal states how many coats you will apply is certainly a good thing, but the fact that you actually do apply two coats is what matters most_. _


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

I give a number of coats. Almost always 2. If it's a same color repaint (normally for commercial) i'll bid it as 1 coat and a 2nd as needed to provide for proper coverage.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

scott65 said:


> A hack painter will always find a way to cheat people-


And a professional will do the right thing even if it hurts his checkbook. I'm not going to start bidding to coverage but you certainly convinced me that you don't do it to rip people off. 


Speaking of this I ate almost $500 last week because I forgot to explain that deep base colors cost more and we had already begun work  


*sigh* At least I'll remember that painful lesson next time.


inB4 "$500 is 30 seconds in MY company" 
It's a lot to me :thumbup:


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

I see both points here .But i'll say this. The more detailed you can be with your bid the better. Quoting a number of coats leaves nothing to question. Telling someone that the job will cost said amount, and that you'll paint it till it's covered allows too much room for interpretation in my opinion. I've gotten in trouble a couple times in the past because I wasn't clear, or detailed enough in my bids. JMO

Tell them exactly what your going to give them, and then give it to them.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

gibberish45 said:


> and a professional will do the right thing even if it hurts his checkbook. I'm not going to start bidding to coverage but you certainly convinced me that you don't do it to rip people off.
> 
> 
> Speaking of this i ate almost $500 last week because i forgot to explain that deep base colors cost more and we had already begun work
> ...


*Ouch!*


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

researchhound said:


> *Ouch!*


I know..... I sure didn't expect them to put deep browns, greens and purples next to each other. I've never finished a job and thought it was uglier than before I started until this one.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

scott65 said:


> It is always the *customers version* of covered that counts, they are the ones that must be happy. If you bid two coats and the old color shows thru arent you going to make them happy and apply another coat? I simply propose to "cover" so as to avoid arguments over how many coats are on the surface. I always inspect my work before I present it as finished to my customers. You only need one bad reference to hurt your reputation in a small town. This is what I have "learned".


i disagree only w/ *that* part of your post; the rest is how i work also.

ie: i'm the pro, so its my version(vision), that matters.

now before you disagree... haven't u ever had your customer say, "oh that looks *good*" (good enough), - and *you* can see it isn't?
I have; and I will make it good enough for *me*. ie: more prep, another coat, etc.

25yrs - my own company= I never *finished* and had my customer say it didn't look good (or great).
(if so, that's a PITA cust. who will never be happy.:wacko: )

if you're trying to 'get away w/ it', that's a diff. story. (and a diff. company.)

i was always in it for the 'long haul', for a happy cust., and excellent referrals.
my brother & I had a goal of making the HO say "OH!, OH!" (come in their pants)

am I bragging? *NO*. i think, if we are the pros - that's how we work; and that is going to keep the profession, trade, & painter- *respected*! (and make us more $ :whistling2

rick


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gibberish45 said:


> I know..... I sure didn't expect them to put deep browns, greens and purples next to each other. I've never finished a job and thought it was uglier than before I started until this one.


Well, at least it sounds like it wasn't boring. Unlike the multiple barely off white colors (pink, blue, green, yellow) I had to do in an already white house last year. You couldn't even see the differences between them. I kept falling asleep and then off my ladder. :sleeping:


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

PS - to the original question...

if its my job, my estimate, my quote... ie: *my* specs...

i always said (wrote)- 

" *prepare* - ('surface'-walls, trim, siding... whatever). 
*prime* where needed.
*paint* - ('surface')"

my thought was - if you give a *firm* price for 2 coats...
what if it ends up needing more? 
I'm not gonna ask for more $$$ at that point. that would be saying i didn't price it correct to begin with.

of course, that's for residential work. (commercial, industrial, is a diff. ball game)

rick


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I just use two coat brushes and rollers. :jester:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

rjensen ptg said:


> PS - to the original question...
> 
> if its my job, my estimate, my quote... ie: *my* specs...
> 
> ...


It could always happen but I've never had to put a third coat on when I didn't already anticipate the potential for needing it. For example, when red is involved I always give a third coat price just in case - and it often is. 
There have been a few times where I bid at two coats and then one ended up being sufficient for coverage and protection. I then discussed it with the HO and if we agreed to stay with just one I reduced my price accordingly. Never had a customer complain when it cost them less... go figure. :blink:


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> I just use two coat brushes and rollers. :jester:


That's two coats right? One up, One down :jester:


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