# Staining exotic hardwoods



## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I have a very large Ipe deck that belongs to a high end customer. The previous penetrating stain (of course) didn't penetrate and is 80% gone. I have used Penofin and Aussie Timber Oil on smaller decks in the past and have seen similar results. Does anyone (pressure pro?) have a product that performs better? I am thinking Sikkens. 

P2fish.


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

*sikkens*

i have heard that the sikkens products are supposed to be better than aussie oil and penofin. I tell ya those decks are a constant maintenance issue


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

michfan said:


> i have heard that the sikkens products are supposed to be better than aussie oil and penofin. I tell ya those decks are a constant maintenance issue


I love that the exotic hardwood decks are supposed to be more maintenance free, too.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I have had good luck with the Benjamin Moore Hardwood Finish C321 on Ipe, Teak, and Mahogany. We used it on some Teak platforms at the marina, as well as on some boats, and we got two years from two coats, wet on wet, versus 6 months to one year with some other products like Cabots, Sikkens, Fine Paint of Europe, Cetol Spar Varnish etc. This was by far the best color retention. Worked more like an adhesive stain than a penetrating stain like they say. We thinned first coat with acetone, then second coat while still a little tacky.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Thanks nace, where are you located? Exposed decks or covered?


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

NACE said:


> I have had good luck with the Benjamin Moore Hardwood Finish C321 on Ipe, Teak, and Mahogany. We used it on some Teak platforms at the marina, as well as on some boats, and we got two years from two coats, wet on wet, versus 6 months to one year with some other products like Cabots, Sikkens, Fine Paint of Europe, Cetol Spar Varnish etc. This was by far the best color retention. Worked more like an adhesive stain than a penetrating stain like they say. We thinned first coat with acetone, then second coat while still a little tacky.


Interesting
I would also like some more information
Decks on the water out here are a bit tricky
I would not even considered a BM product for them

Why did you thin with acetone?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I think Ken for PP recommends something for hardwood, (not sure what) I don't think that Sikkens makes anything specific for hardwoods, I have used penofin myself in the past. But admit that i don't do many hardwoods.


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## spectrum (Apr 27, 2007)

*Exotic hardwood*

I have faithfully used Penofin Exotic hardwood formula for Ipe and have consistantly been disappointed in the color retention and overall performance of this product. I have also used TWP and experienced similiar results. I have also tried Defy water based Hardwood formula and cannot acheive more than 6 months. I am at a loss when it comes to exotic hardwoods. Nothing seems to penetrate, provide color retention and water reppellency for more than 6 months. I am about to try Sikkens SRD on a Penofin failure. (for free) The Benjamin Moore product may be worth a try. What I have found works best............gray semi transparent oil stains.

Paul from Spectrum


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

All the decks we did have direct exposure. Some of the platforms we did are on boats that sit in the water from April thru November and then some are shrink wrapped and others are just hauled. Ipe deck is at a Marina on Long Island Sound. Some of the deck has Teak and Mahogany furniture, Mahogany doors etc. I used aecetone on an all Mahogany Deck in Weston CT becasue it is a faster flashing solvent and we wanted the C321 to dry quicker for a party the homeowner was having over the weekend. The OTC/VOC compliant C versions here in CT have only 250 g/liter of VOC, which means thicker more viscous coatings that are harder to apply, need to be applied thinner, and struggle to dry especially with humidity or dew points that are high. In addition, tighter grain areas tend to flash with the compliant stains. Aecetone helps it dry quicker and virtually eliminates flashing and slow dry.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Ken must be busy. Maybe I will PM him


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## spectrum (Apr 27, 2007)

*Paul from Spectrum*

On the subject of staining and preserving Mahogany Decks...I continue to be dissapointed with the longetivity of the products I have been using, which have been Penofin Exotic hardwood formula and TWP 500 series preserving oil . We are only getting 3 months before they look faded and sun bleached, although they still bead water. The challenge is the density of these woods. They are so tight, that they absorb very little oil, therefore, very little pigment and UV protection. 

I just received my 3rd customer complaint this year using TWP. I am now refreshing these 3 IPE decks with a single coat of preserving oil stain at no charge. I will not be using TWP or Penofin. 

NACE has given me reason to try _Benjamin Moore's_ new hardwood oil. I also picked up some _Ducks Back_ preserving oil stain for Hardwoods as well.

Any other product suggestions for preserving hardwood decks from other members? I am grabbing for straws on this one. Has anyone had any experience with _One Time Wood_ ? I beleive it is a waterborne product, which would not be my first cholice on hardwoods.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

This is a Mahogany we just finished. We used BM Hardwood Mahagony stain. First pick is before, second after strip and neutralize (PH balance). We applied with big stainer brushes and used a lambswool applicator (dry) to mop up whatever didn't penetrate. I'll let you guys know how how she fairs.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That looks nice. What BM product is it? Also, is it a solid stain?


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## oakley (Dec 14, 2007)

Look at Sikkens SRD. The key is the prep which includes a wipedown with lacquer thinner immediately before applying the product to remove the naturally occurring oils. Still expect to do it once a year.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Thanks, It is BM Hardwood finish. It is transparent but highly pigmented. I have tried most of the hardwood specific stains and have had unimpressive results. I will be stopping by to take a few pics of the finish after it has dried and will post them.


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## spectrum (Apr 27, 2007)

Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I am going to do one of these hardwood decks using _Benj Moore Hardwood_ formula and another using the _Duck's Back_ hardwood formula. I will let you know next Spring which one of them has stood up the best. I have a third one to re-do for free this Fall as well, any ideas or requests for a 3rd product test and reveiw?


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

spectrum said:


> Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I am going to do one of these hardwood decks using _Benj Moore Hardwood_ formula and another using the _Duck's Back_ hardwood formula. I will let you know next Spring which one of them has stood up the best. I have a third one to re-do for free this Fall as well, any ideas or requests for a 3rd product test and reveiw?


Try fenners product - WoodZotic http://www.restore-a-deck.com/woodzotic.html. He has done many hardwood decks that cost more than my house.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd use Sikkens. I know everyone has their own opinions on what works and what they have had trouble with but I can honestly tell you I have never had a failure in less than 2 years with it. The nice thing about a lot of the Sikkens products is that they don't form a film over the wood. Therefore, they won't peel. Sikkens SRD Translucent gives you 9 color options, Semi-Trans has about 40. SRD is great on exotics. I have used it on Teak, Mahagony, and clear cedar. Cetol Dek Finish will give you a gorgeous Satin finish and comes in about 8 colors. Again, it's great on exotics. Application can be time consuming because the manufacturer recommends brushing everything and I have found that it comes out better when you do. However, drying times are L - O - N - G ! Makes it nice because flash marks are no concern. SRD recommends one coat but I like to do two just because it gives a nicer finished appearance. DEK will take 3 coats to look "showcase" quality. The one other thing about Sikkens is that you really do have to wait a full 24 hours to re-coat. Finished product though is tough to beat.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Sikkens SRD no benny moore here on those decks.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I have seen SRD decks fail here in 8 months. harsh climate.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> The nice thing about a lot of the Sikkens products is that they don't form a film over the wood. Therefore, they won't peel.
> 
> The DEK finish you speak of is film forming and will peel.
> 
> ...


Reading and following the manufacturers recommendations should be done.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

If SRD failed, I can't imagine any Ben Moore product wouldn't. Just my opinion. I am in Northern Michigan too. Harsh climate - yes - but I still haven't personally seen it fail.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Reading and following the manufacturers recommendations should be done.


always reasuring when the "pros" have everything backwards.:whistling2: If you are going to two coat oil based stain your second coat better be at around 10 minutes :yes:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

_I said a lot of Sikkens products, not all, aren't film forming. _A second coat will not penetrate the same way the first does. However, that also doesn't make it peel. It will wear quicker, I agree but I used 2 coats of SRD on my own deck and it's been 3 years. Still looks great, no problems whatsoever. And, it's in the sun all day long.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hey Tsu, ever used Sikkens? Dek is oil based. It recommends two to three coats. Cetol Door and Window is oil based. It recommends three coats. As a matter of fact, the only Sikkens product that doesn't recommend multiple coats after 24 hours is SRD. I do it for SRD because it looks better. I don't, however, wait to apply. After maybe an hour, I'll apply a quick second coat over the first with lambswool.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Hey Tsu, ever used Sikkens? Dek is oil based. It recommends two to three coats. Cetol Door and Window is oil based. It recommends three coats. As a matter of fact, the only Sikkens product that doesn't recommend multiple coats after 24 hours is SRD. I do it for SRD because it looks better. I don't, however, wait to apply. After maybe an hour, I'll apply a quick second coat over the first with lambswool.


the film forming ones? Yah you can recoat those because they form a film. Sikkens keeps changing their lines though. I meant penetrating oil stains in my post, I thought that was assumed. So if you do a wet on wet with SRD, do you stain a whole deck, then go walk around on it doing a second coat? Or do you stain 3 boards, wait an hour, stain 3 boards, wait an hour, stain 3 boards, wait an hour. Sounds expensive.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Tsu, one more question, when you use solid oil stain, don't you use multiple coats? Don't you have to wait for the first to dry? Not quite sure how you decided that oil based stains can't be second coated. Also, not quite sure why you would go after me with a comment like that. Sometimes you should re-think about what you are typing before you post.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Tsu, I assumed nothing because I have seen your other posts. Hitting a deck with a top coat after an hour or so is pretty easy with this new tool I found - it's called an extension pole and you can buy it at about any hardware store these days. Attach a lambswool applicator and you're set to go. Does this work for all decks? No. It works for 80% of the ones I do though. If it's a very large deck, I'll put one thick coat on and be done.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Any more bbbbbbbbbbbbb brainbusters?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Tsu, one more question, when you use solid oil stain, don't you use multiple coats? Don't you have to wait for the first to dry? Not quite sure how you decided that oil based stains can't be second coated. Also, not quite sure why you would go after me with a comment like that. Sometimes you should re-think about what you are typing before you post.


Solid Oil Stain? Well, I can't think of a time I have actually used a solid oil stain. When its solid, its latex, when its oil its semi-solid or less opacity and wet on wet. Done lots of both of those this summer, no solid oil stain. I think before I post, usually rethink too. Can you even get a solid color oil stain any more? I have not seen one on the shelves. Even so, you never wait for it to dry before recoating. Perhaps it is you that should rethink how you are painting.

And you never answer my question.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

http://www.cabotstain.com/products/product-type/Staining Products.html

Cabot, just off the top of my head makes a solid OIL STAIN called SOLID COLOR DECKING STAIN.

http://www.nam.sikkens.com/product.cfm?product_id=13&product_category=deck

Sikkens makes Rubbol Deck which is also a solid oil.

AND BY THE WAY, THE FOLLOWING IS COPIED DIRECTLY OFF OF SIKKENS' WEBSITE:

Application Procedures
New/Bare Wood/Composite Applications
1. Follow the preparation procedures.
2. Apply 1st coat of Rubbol DEK.
3. Let surface dry for minimum of 24 hours.
4. Apply 2nd coat of Rubbol DEK.
5. Clean tools with paint thinner or mineral spirits.

The following is also an excerpt from Sikkens Cetol Dek Finish which is a translucent:

Application Procedures
New/Bare Wood Applications
1. Follow the preparation procedures
2. Apply 1st coat of Cetol DEK Finish (6 sides)
3. Let surface dry for minimum of 24 hours
4. Apply 2nd coat of Cetol DEK Finish
5. Clean tools with paint thinner or mineral spirits

You can find it here:
http://www.nam.sikkens.com/pdf/cetol_dek_finish_App_Guide.pdf


*I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR THE FOLLOWING COMMENT:
*I am going to have to make the decision between Azko Nobel, the largest paint manufacturer in the world"s advice, or yours. I choose option "A." 

And by the way, what didn't I answer? How to apply second coat of SRD? I told you, extension pole and lambswool. Long enough extension and I never have to step foot on the deck.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I would love to hear a reply TSU.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I need to ask, just to clarify:

when you say that all solids are latex, don't you mean acrylic? There is a difference you know. Thats why when you buy a can of latex paint, it says acrylic latex. They're not telling you twice that its a latex paint. Acrylic (water based) stains don't contain latex. Cabot is a good example of what I am trying to say (PRO VT). Yes, it's a stain, yes, it's an acrylic, no, it's not latex. The "pro" that is trying to correct me can't even get that straight?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> the film forming ones? Yah you can recoat those because they form a film. Sikkens keeps changing their lines though. I meant penetrating oil stains in my post


Pretty sure I explained this very clearly. Dek is film forming. It does take multiple coats. I also believe it requires you to "back stain" the boards. As in they only want you to use it on decks before it is built. Film forming stains are not what I am talking about. Out of curiosity, aren't the sikkens film forming stains really a form of poly? Obviously they dry between coats and get multiple coats. But SRD, the non film forming stain (not available in a solid) recommends one coat. Do you seriously do your second wet on wet with a pad on an extension? How the devil do you do that? I bet it leaves a nice even look to the pigments, but the deck would need to be real smooth. Wouldn't get in the cracks much but you could get that on the first coat. How do you dip the pad? 

I am not a huge fan of Sikkens, great look, too much maintenance. But if you have a smooth deck you can back stain I would consider it.

I did not know Cabots still made an oil based solid stain, doesn't surprise me though. Only place around here with cabots is hardware stores so I have not found my self buying a lot. I think they may be the only one left though.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I need to ask, just to clarify:
> 
> when you say that all solids are latex, don't you mean acrylic? There is a difference you know. Thats why when you buy a can of latex paint, it says acrylic latex. They're not telling you twice that its a latex paint. Acrylic (water based) stains don't contain latex. Cabot is a good example of what I am trying to say (PRO VT). Yes, it's a stain, yes, it's an acrylic, no, it's not latex. The "pro" that is trying to correct me can't even get that straight?


Yup, my bad, shoulda re-thought that one :whistling2: waterborne stains are typically acrylic.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

and PIN, it seems that you are here to fight about things, I am here to advance my knowledge of coatings and applications. No sense in fighting just to fight.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Not here to fight about things. Just want to stop being criticized for what I say. You are right, the second wet on wet with srd gives a great look, thats why I do it. I stated in another post that I sand the decks that I work on so they are nice and smooth. I use a wooster 18" bucket to dip. Cracks are covered on the first brush coat. I also apply the second really thin. I let the first coat set so it's not going anywhere but it still hasn't cured then hit it again for a uniform look.

If I state something that you disagree with, maybe you should just ask me the questions you have before saying stuff like:

always reasuring when the "pros" have everything backwards.:whistling2: If you are going to two coat oil based stain your second coat better be at around 10 minutes :yes:

Anyway, no hard feelings. I like Sikkens because I think while there is maintenance involved, the interval between is longer than a lot of products out there. While I am asking questions, have you ever tried Defy Epoxy Fortified Wood Stains? I am thinking about it but have yet to see it done.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

the last post in this thread was a few years ago,
any updates in what everyone is using on hardwoods?. Allot of products have changed, I'm wondering what stains you guys are working with.


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