# Advance ....again.



## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

Interesting product that advance… It has been our go to for Cabinet refinishing for the last three years. We always finish our cabinets with either FFT 310 or 308/210 or 208 And usually get a pretty sweet finish. Today however was quite interesting, in that after spraying our first finish coat over our Stix primer which had been dry for a day, the doors dried down with numerous tiny craters everywhere. I have not seen this before we were in a very controlled environment in a basement forced air heat no contaminants.... oh, and throw in a dash orange peel as well. They were sprayed with a Graco LPFFT 210 .... nothing peculiar going on. I have plenty of airless experience-but I’ve never seen Advance do that. I didn’t take any pictures for fear of ridicule… LOL but if you will just imagine being on the lovely island of Hawaii with those big volcanoes all around you except a micro version and about 1000 times more. The only other thing I would add is that the basement was pretty warm I’d say about 80° forced air obviously very low humidity. I’ll say thank you in advance (no pun intended) to anybody that responds with a non-snarky answer or any information on similar Advance experiences you’ve had in the past as they always seem helpful. 
Actually if I back up a bit, haven’t been totally thrilled with the events for the last three or four kitchens just hasn’t been quite up to standard… May consider swapping out for something else if I don’t see perfection. So if anybody is using something different that sprays amazing and holds up over Stix ... I’m open to suggestions as well. Thank you again hope everyone is having an enjoyable freezing winter… Said no one ever. Thanks to all


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

One of my guys actually took pictures .... [/ATTACH]


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

with a 210 seeing orange peel is a red flag... I have seen advance do that when applying too thin so it isn't able to lay out and dissipate bubbles. Maybe could also be a surface tension issue, try thinning with 0.5-1oz distilled water / gallon.

A lot of members here are liking ScuffX and I have had good feedback from the coronado acrylic/alkyd


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Did you strain first? Wonder if it had seeded a little.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

You're positive the primer isnt orange peeled and showing through the advance?


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

Definitely not the primer I sprayed sticks with an HVLP it was as smooth as one could imagine…


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

KEEGS said:


> Definitely not the primer I sprayed sticks with an HVLP it was as smooth as one could imagineâ€¦


How much did you have to thin out (reduce) the stix before using an HVLP?

I used to have a 3 stage HVLP and had to reduce my waterborne paints and primers a ridiculous 40% for it to atomize properly. I have since sold my HVLP. 

I'm hearing the Titan 115 or 6 stage is much better these days for spraying thick waterborne paints and primers. I'm guessing that you still have to reduce them somewhat.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

NACE said:


> Did you strain first? Wonder if it had seeded a little.




I’ve never heard the term “seeded” before? Just curious what this means?


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

Sprayed the Stix with Graco 9.5 Pro Comp new unit. -#5 needle ... maybe 5-7% reduction w/ water. Sprayed down flawlessly.


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

And “seedy” generally describes the result of paint freezing. If you rub a bit of a coating between your fingers and it has seeded - it will feel like tiny grains of sand in the paint. Pretty obvious when you feel it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

So, you spray the stix with an HVLP and the Advance with an airless? That doesnt sound right.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> So, you spray the stix with an HVLP and the Advance with an airless? That doesnt sound right.


That's what I do. Works every time. I've decided not to run the Stix through the same primer as my Advance. Ya gotta keep em separated..

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I just clean the machine, but whatever.


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

Straightened everything out right quick with a little help from @finishesbyKevin .... made some adjustments to tip size and pressure settings. And spraying the Stix with the HVLP was an absolute pleasure.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

KEEGS said:


> Straightened everything out right quick with a little help from @finishesbyKevin .... made some adjustments to tip size and pressure settings. And spraying the Stix with the HVLP was an absolute pleasure.


Can you epxand on what adjustments you made?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I have seen pinholes/craters due to pressure being too high with cabinet coat, and a titan sc6+ 410 tip. 

2
I tried 2200 psi maybe, when 1900 or 1950 was better.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PNW Painter said:


> I’ve never heard the term “seeded” before? Just curious what this means?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alkyds can go to “seed” which are tiny globules of hard dried alkyd that form when paint cools too fast during filling process. Sometimes too you may have some in-ground pigment that makes it through the extensive filtering process. If you paint dealer has a drawdown kit usually you can see it after it dries on the drawdown card.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> That's what I do. Works every time. I've decided not to run the Stix through the same sprayer as my Advance. Ya gotta keep em separated..imo
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk




Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Sorry for the double post. Was trying to edit previous one. Anyhow, there's so many factors that could cause those craters or fisheyes. Hopefully You figured it out @KEEGS.
For me, I found the fisheyes were happening with the Stix while running it out of the same Airless as the Advance. So I started laying down the Stix with my HVLP which has been pretty flawless. 
There's been talk about the HVLP not spraying latex very well, but I'm using an 80 gal. Tank in the shop with the 3M accuspray gun and the 2.0 tip. (Biggest one you can get I think). Still trying to find the magic mix, but I only need to thin about 5%.
I then spray the Advance (unthinned) from my graco airless 490. With a 208 fflp tip. Pressure as low as I can without getting wings. The only time it will try to crater on me is when I lay it on too thick. (Which is easy to do on corners from multiple passes). Plan your attack. I clean my airless with water only. 
Anyhow, this system has been working pretty flawless (Knock on wood) for the last several projects. 


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Can you epxand on what adjustments you made?


Actually, we made quite a few adjustments. To be clear-we refinished many kitchens over the last 4 years or so and without a hitch. Our go to was cleaning and prepping everything thoroughly and subsequently priming with Stix via airless Titan 440I 308/10 Graco FFT. We then sprayed on 2 coats of Advance and everything looked amazing-honestly very close to a factory or shop finish. Starting about 5-6 months ago we started experiencing fisheye in our Stix ... having changed nothing. This is where the fun began. We used the process of elimination tirelessly and finally came to the same conclusion as @finishesbykevyn - that the Advance most likely was leaving small alkyd deposits throughout the lines, filters etc. I also had no idea how sensitive Stix was to not so obvious contaminants. We had been spraying in garages not thinking about the silicone lubricants in the air from garage door openers and rails, car cleaning supplies etc. We had no idea about propane heaters contaminating the finish either. I wish I knew everything, but, like many I’m always learning and adapting. I believe a new airless or HVLP was the remedy. It was, as my Graco (new) 9.5 layed down a baby smooth coat with zero fisheye and very little reduction, maybe 5-7%. We made a few changes over the last few kitchens going to the LPFFT Graco and utilizing a much smaller airless unit from Graco. I believe I made errors in pressure, speed of passes and drying temperature that caused what you see in the previous photos. We were set up in a basement that was extremely warm and we were running a fan on our drying racks. Not brilliant I know-seemed like a good plan at the time. After reaching out and doing a ton of research, we went back to the 440I, I flushed it completely with several different solvents and went with a Graco LPFFT 208 and dialed in the pressure on my sample paper and the rest is history. Like I said-definitely made some mistakes-but I’m former Military and I’m all about improvise, adapt, overcome. Period. And let’s face it, we want our customers to get exactly what they pay for- high quality results delivered by professionals who are vested in their craft. Thanks again to everyone who responded and to the site, it is a great resource. Enjoy the Super Bowl everyone!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

So, in a nutshell, advance works better with its own pump.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

NACE said:


> PNW Painter said:
> 
> 
> > I’ve never heard the term “seeded” before? Just curious what this means?
> ...


Straight out of an unopened can every now and then you find one


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