# Tell me if I’m right or wrong



## Sainmatt (Oct 31, 2020)

Hey all,
Im a remodeling contractor and we are taking on more cabinet painting. I’m trying to make this simple for myself.

I have a job right now spraying raw MDF panels from a company called Semi-Handmade. Hardwood edge banding and flat MDF panels. I’m planning to use Kem Aqua Plus with the surfacer.

i have another job that’s a repaint. My plan for that job is BIN or SW shellac primer (cleaning and sanding prior to priming) and Breakthrough Satin. I believe i can get HIGH VOC here in South Carolina.

basically my conclusion is KEM AQUA for new unfinished cabinetry and BIN/Breakthrough for repaints.

Im unaware of a BM dealer in my area. But I have a good SW and PPG rep. Am i thinking right or wrong with my cabinet painting ventures?

thanks!


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Kem aqua will work on repaints, but SW won't warranty it.

BIN gets brittle, over time. I know a lot of guys swear on it, because they don't get bleed through and short-term it looks good. If I was doing my own personal kitchen, I'd go with oil primer.


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## Sainmatt (Oct 31, 2020)

Masterwork said:


> Kem aqua will work on repaints, but SW won't warranty it.
> 
> BIN gets brittle, over time. I know a lot of guys swear on it, because they don't get bleed through and short-term it looks good. If I was doing my own personal kitchen, I'd go with oil primer.


So a standard oil primer for repaint but kem Aqua instead of Breakthrough?

I like the idea of kem Aqua because of durability and quick recoats


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I like bin as a primer for cabinets (never had an issue with it) and use Breakthrough for the finish coats. Being that we're both in SC I can tell you for sure that you can get the good stuff here. They sell both and they're both in the same looking can so be sure to tell them you want the V50 Breakthrough when ordering it.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

The Kem Aqua looks like a great product, but imagine a little more fussy than Breakthrough. 
Spray only I imagine, so if your doing the bases on site, keep that in mind. TDS say Industrial shop use only.. Im also not a fan of oil primers and certainly wouldn't use it under the Kem Aqua unless tds says it Ok.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Why don't you like oil primers?


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

"Tell me if I'm right or wrong." Ok. I can see that for some questions. But generally speaking, this is PaintTalk. My Jewish mother-in-law likes to say "you get 10 Jews in a room and you get 12 different opinions." I'm pretty sure it's like that with painters too (Jewish or not). 

Be prepared for a fruitful discussion during which you'll learn a lot and be confused all at once and at the end you'll follow your own best judgment (and hope that it works).


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Why don't you like oil primers?


 Never said I didn't like them. Just don't trust them as a bonding primer. Oh and they suck to work with..Great for new wood though..


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Haha! Joe, that's the best description of Paint Talk ever.


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## Sainmatt (Oct 31, 2020)

Joe67 said:


> "Tell me if I'm right or wrong." Ok. I can see that for some questions. But generally speaking, this is PaintTalk. My Jewish mother-in-law likes to say "you get 10 Jews in a room and you get 12 different opinions." I'm pretty sure it's like that with painters too (Jewish or not).
> 
> Be prepared for a fruitful discussion during which you'll learn a lot and be confused all at once and at the end you'll follow your own best judgment (and hope that it works).


Haha!

i completely get it. I’m a carpenter by trade but now GC my jobs and have a couple employees. One is a painter but he was always a grunt laborer before and doesn’t have much product knowledge.

We recently painted a large kitchen and it became clear we needed a different game plan. We used a standard run of the mill primer water based (After cleaning) and sherwin Williams pre cat epoxy ( water based) and it peeled like crazy.

needless to say we had to sand and repaint and finally got good adhesion. Long story, but I’m taking the lead now and wanting to make sure we get professional results in the future. I called my SW rep... and he was like.... “oh you needed an oil primer” oh.... thanks for tellling me now LOL


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Sainmatt said:


> Haha!
> 
> i completely get it. I’m a carpenter by trade but now GC my jobs and have a couple employees. One is a painter but he was always a grunt laborer before and doesn’t have much product knowledge.
> 
> ...


 You don't just need an oil primer, you need an adhesion primer. There are many water-based adhesion primers out there that are fantastic. 
Stix,Uma, gripper, Kilz has a new one too that I'm going to try. For new wood though alot of these specialty paints have thier own primers that will be compatible with one another. 
I've recently switched to BIN shellac as it covers all my bases and seems to adhere better than anything else I've tried.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.

It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints. 

I’ve never used BIN as a result, heeding the specifier’s advice, except for a few miscellaneous items and furnishings on my own home, most of which to some degree, after 10 years, give or take, experienced what I would consider both unacceptable & excessive cracking along the grain in areas, or exhibited complete adhesion loss, much of which had to be removed due to not being able to achieve a sound edge when prepping for repainting earlier this year. It became very brittle and flaky with age, and based on the one time use, I’d tend to agree with the specifier that it’s not a great product, and that there are certainly better options. 

Moore’s 024 and it’s predecessor had been my go to bonding primer for repaints, and 024 and/or 217 and it’s predecessor being my go to primer for bare wood. Aside from industrial or specialty finishing systems which require specific primers, I’ve used nothing other than the 024 & 217 since the inception of my business. From what I gather, both products are being nixed in my area due to new VOC legislation which is kicking in at the turn of the New Year. I picked up a gallon of the new Moore’s oil AP the other day for my own home but haven’t crack the lid yet. It was by far the heaviest gallon of primer I’ve encountered in a long time.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Never said I didn't like them. Just don't trust them as a bonding primer. Oh and they suck to work with..Great for new wood though..





Redux said:


> BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.
> 
> It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints.
> 
> ...


Any thoughts on using some of the DTMs like P06 in place of 024? Not available in my area but I assume the c085 will still need to be thinned to use properly.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Long term exposure to BIN is also a health issue. It eats through organic vapour cartridges like crazy, plus it absorbs through your eyeballs. You need one of those full-face masks of you use it a lot.


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## Sainmatt (Oct 31, 2020)

Have any of your tried Sherwin Williams Extreme Bond? How would that compare to other water Bourne adhesion primers?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Any thoughts on using some of the DTMs like P06 in place of 024? Not available in my area but I assume the c085 will still need to be thinned to use properly.


Im sure it would work great. Not a fan of spraying oil primers. Although the acrylic dtm p04 may be an option. Just wondering how it would bond to an old finish. ?Plus no tannin hide. Man, do I have to go back to spraying oil based again..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Long term exposure to BIN is also a health issue. It eats through organic vapour cartridges like crazy, plus it absorbs through your eyeballs. You need one of those full-face masks of you use it a lot.


 Ya, but let's be honest. All of those primers are nasty and are getting absorbed through your eyeballs and fingers. Not just BIN. I try to wear gloves and ventilate well..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Not a fan of spraying oil primers. Although the acrylic dtm p04 may be an option. Just wondering how it would bond to an old finish. ?





Redux said:


> BIN is the only product I’ve encountered, where the use of which had been expressly excluded in written notations provided with approved product lists prepared by an architectural specifier for new construction finishing and/or refinishing . BIN’s exclusion was due to longer term failures experienced by the architectural firm who initially prepared the specs.
> 
> It was engrained in me very early on by architectural specifiers who adhered to MPI standards that BIN had no place in new construction finishing and/or repaints aside from sealing knots or stain blocking, only when all other options had been exhausted, due to BIN serving as a poor foundation on wood substrates for future repaints, often resulting in failures in the longer term, some of which can be catastrophic in nature resulting in complete removal for subsequent repaints.
> 
> ...


Always gotta rain on the party with your techy talk. Damn you. 🤣


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Always gotta rain on the party with your techy talk. Damn you. 🤣



If finisher Eric Reason were a member here, he’d probably be raining on the BIN party too!

Below is a link to a “BIN Gone Bad” YouTube video illustrating a shellac primer failure in a kitchen he finished.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

Sainmatt said:


> Hey all,
> Im a remodeling contractor and we are taking on more cabinet painting. I’m trying to make this simple for myself.
> 
> I have a job right now spraying raw MDF panels from a company called Semi-Handmade. Hardwood edge banding and flat MDF panels. I’m planning to use Kem Aqua Plus with the surfacer.
> ...


This is pretty much the system we use all the time. If lacquer is the choice, we use Kem Aqua Plus, not the regular Kem Aqua. It is an upgraded version. We did spray it over shellac all the time with no issues, but so many people on here talk about it failing in the long term, we have started using the Kem Aqua Plus primer instead, which S-W calls surfacer. The surfacer also locks out stains and tannins. The Kem Aqua Plus can also receive clear top coats where the regular Kem Aqua cannot. If you are familiar with a sprayer, I think the Kem Aqua is a breeze. If we are going to brush the cabinet boxes instead of spray, we use the V50 Breakthrough. I actually find the Breakthrough more difficult to work with than the Kem Aqua Plus, but the end result has a feel and handling much like lacquer. We just had a problem getting the V50 Breakthrough though. According to my store, due to COVID-19, PPG has reduced production of certain products and the V50 Breakthrough was one of them. They scrubbed the country for me trying to get one gallon of a white base and couldn't do it. He said it should be available in late November but couldn't confirm an actual date. We do use Kem Aqua Plus on repaints, but we basically remove the previous finish before we start. I see many videos of guys who go in and start spraying lacquer on repaints, but most lacquers are limited to 5 mil total film thickness, and by not reducing the original film, you are exceeding the maximum recommended by the manufacturer. I think it probably is the same deal as using BIN though, where most of the time you will probably be fine, but you are going to have a job or two that fail because you didn't follow manufacturer specs and they aren't going to help you. My reputation is to important to play the numbers game and factor in a failure or two as a cost of doing business. This is why we always sand them down to the wood when using lacquer. So in essence, they are new doors. The only lacquer product I personally know of that can go beyond 5 mils is Melisi, which I believe is limited to 10 mils.


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## Slbpainting1966 (Jul 24, 2018)

Masterwork said:


> Kem aqua will work on repaints, but SW won't warranty it.
> 
> BIN gets brittle, over time. I know a lot of guys swear on it, because they don't get bleed through and short-term it looks good. If I was doing my own personal kitchen, I'd go with oil primer.


I agree oil is the way to go if possible, love the sanding ability as well, smoother finish


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

If I had to use shellac as a tie coat on a refinish, I’d probably opt for SealCoat, or better yet, mix a up a batch of shellac using dewaxed flake applied “thinly”. I suspect the fillers in pigmented shellac might account for BIN’s brittleness. 

Not having elongation at break values for either BIN or SealCoat films, which could probably be obtained from Rust-Oleum, I couldn’t validate that BIN is more brittle than SealCoat. The Eb values are sometimes included on tech sheets. I think a pure shellac film has an Eb value of 4% which would suggest that it’s tolerant to interior wood substrate dimensional changes in most instances, dimensional changes in wood typically being the root cause for films such as BIN cracking and failing. 

I started using dewaxed shellac as a tie coat in limited instances under 2K finishes almost 8 years ago, probably covering just under 15K sq ft of wood surfaces, many of which are in wet locations such as bathrooms and kitchens, and nothing’s exhibited the slightest bit of failure, and I do check in on the homes frequently where it’s been used.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> If finisher Eric Reason were a member here, he’d probably be raining on the BIN party too!
> 
> Below is a link to a “BIN Gone Bad” YouTube video illustrating a shellac primer failure in a kitchen he finished.


I won't challange that, but I still think He just likes the sound of his own voice.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> If I had to use shellac as a tie coat on a refinish, I’d probably opt for SealCoat, or better yet, mix a up a batch of shellac using dewaxed flake applied “thinly”. I suspect the fillers in pigmented shellac might account for BIN’s brittleness.
> 
> Not having elongation at break values for either BIN or SealCoat films, which could probably be obtained from Rust-Oleum, I couldn’t validate that BIN is more brittle than SealCoat. The Eb values are sometimes included on tech sheets. I think a pure shellac film has an Eb value of 4% which would suggest that it’s tolerant to interior wood substrate dimensional changes in most instances, dimensional changes in wood typically being the root cause for films such as BIN cracking and failing.
> 
> I started using dewaxed shellac as a tie coat in limited instances under 2K finishes almost 8 years ago, probably covering just under 15K sq ft of wood surfaces, many of which are in wet locations such as bathrooms and kitchens, and nothing’s exhibited the slightest bit of failure, and I do check in on the homes frequently where it’s been used.


That's a great idea. I guess the only drawback would be that it drys clear, not giving any covering power or the ability to locate defects in your wood.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

If we're going to talk about long-term failure (ie., BIN), Lacquer should also be mentioned. Unless they have drastically improved the formula, Lacquers have a fairly short life-span before cracking and chipping. 

I love they way Lacquers look at first (like glass), but they are difficult to touch-up when they fail, and (correct me if I'm wrong) do especially poorly in areas of high moisture (like Kitchen/Bathroom Cabinets) and in areas that receive a lot of direct sunlight. I am also under the impression that Laquers become brittle as they age.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> If we're going to talk about long-term failure (ie., BIN), Lacquer should also be mentioned. Unless they have drastically improved the formula, Lacquers have a fairly short life-span before cracking and chipping.
> 
> I love they way Lacquers look at first (like glass), but they are difficult to touch-up when they fail, and (correct me if I'm wrong) do especially poorly in areas of high moisture (like Kitchen/Bathroom Cabinets) and in areas that receive a lot of direct sunlight. I am also under the impression that Laquers become brittle as they age.



Yeah..my first two years in business I had a high output cabinet finishing shop and we were pumping out some pretty serious volumes of NC, CAB, and Post-Cat lacquers. Within two years, the lacquer on nearly every set of cabinets started crazing & cracking like mad on the maple veneered sheet goods. 

Although not held accountable due not spec’ing the finishes, combined with veneer stresses/underlying lather checking being a major contributing factor, the lacquer’s mechanical properties, especially the film’s elongation at break values, just weren’t tolerant to the stresses and movement in the veneers. In simpler terms they were just too hard and brittle.

We switched to automotive 2K urethanes in lieu of lacquer, being 2K finishes hadn’t yet been available in the architectural coatings industry.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Why don't some of these threads that have recent activity come up in the "new" feed?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I just did for me, if you click back on your browser it won't update the new feed you have to click new for it to show.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I just did for me, if you click back on your browser it won't update the new feed you have to click new for it to show.


Had clear history and cache for it to show up. Hope I don't have to do that everytime.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

That'd be annoying, probably just a fluke.


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