# Subcontract or Employee Painting Business



## TyerPainting (Apr 19, 2013)

I had my own small residential repaint company for a few years about 8 years ago, until I was offered and accepted a job as estimator and project manager for a large commercial painting company.
Well, due to issues out of my control, that company had to be dissolved.
Now I want to get back to having my own painting contracting business, focusing primarily on commercial, w/repaint residentials to fill in the gaps.

Initially, I am thinking of just subbing out the jobs I get. Not to other companies...I have a few good painters willing to come aboard.
If anyone is doing this, or has done it this way, can you please offer me some advice. I would greatly appreciate it!

Steve Tyer
Tyer Painting


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

You may want to read this thread... Good Luck!


http://www.painttalk.com/f4/we-have-changed-our-structure-23049/


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

If you're going to do it, you need to do it right. The IRS takes a dim view of "the ol' subcontractor dodge" used by so many in the trades.* Here's the IRS take on it: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ndent-Contractor-(Self-Employed)-or-Employee?

I have a family member (by marriage) who's been hounded by the IRS for years for trying it. He didn't do it fast, more like half-fast, if you get my drift.


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## modernfinish (Mar 20, 2013)

TyerPainting said:


> I had my own small residential repaint company for a few years about 8 years ago, until I was offered and accepted a job as estimator and project manager for a large commercial painting company.
> Well, due to issues out of my control, that company had to be dissolved.
> Now I want to get back to having my own painting contracting business, focusing primarily on commercial, w/repaint residentials to fill in the gaps.
> 
> ...


I'd imagine most here on this forum started out by themselves or with a friend helper and ran it this way until you realize you need more help .. Paying cash at first job or 2 then 1099 form next and then once you get rolling good you do payroll . Unless you start with a bunch of capital then you can do payroll from the get go... I don't know much cause I've always been on the the employee side just starting same as you. I interested in people's take on it . Of course your gonna get those ," I've always done it the legal way" answers...


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Is there really anything illegal about having sub-contractor employees? If they have there own insurance and take 1099's, drive there own cars, etc?
I understand you are not paying payroll taxes, but they pay self employment taxes instead. 
Is there a technicality I'm missing?


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## modernfinish (Mar 20, 2013)

joshmays1976 said:


> Is there really anything illegal about having sub-contractor employees? If they have there own insurance and take 1099's, drive there own cars, etc?
> I understand you are not paying payroll taxes, but they pay self employment taxes instead.
> Is there a technicality I'm missing?


It's the having their own insurance part I believe is key. Most guys I know are union hands and you don't carry insurance when you are out of work , at least I never did ...but I guess if you were to help them get it , made the steps easier to obtain it then they would get it . I would have laughed at someone that said ,hey can you help me hang this building (or whatever) and then we set a price and then they said ,can I see your insurance?


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## modernfinish (Mar 20, 2013)

All the dudes I know would bust out their car insurance ,lol


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

modernfinish said:


> All the dudes I know would bust out their car insurance ,lol


Some of the people that answered our help wanted ad, I asked if they were insured they said yes my wife has a great insurance policy :wallbash:, I said no a liability insurance policy, a couple said what's that? It's funny but sad since all our replies except one state they have over 20 yrs experience and owned their own painting co. I guess they weren't a legit painting co.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

In my area the only insurance you must have is work comp. liability is nice, and requested by a lot of contractors, but liability( depending on the level/ deductible) is really pretty cheap.

I personally am work comp exempt in TN ( lot of states offer exemptions from what I understand) , 
But I still have to carry a policy for work in NC, and to cover any employees, and yes i can cover subs on my policy. In fact if I didn't have work comp I could be covered on my contractors policy. The thing is contractors don't want to do this, ( neither do I) , because if you hire a sub without it, an 1099 them then you have to pay percentage for there coverage.
Around here most serious tradesmen just get there own policy to be more attractive to contractors. Not really that big of a deal after you pay the initial premium


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

joshmays1976 said:


> Is there really anything illegal about having sub-contractor employees? If they have there own insurance and take 1099's, drive there own cars, etc?
> I understand you are not paying payroll taxes, but they pay self employment taxes instead.
> Is there a technicality I'm missing?


Whose tools are they using? Are you on the job dictating what they do? Are they emplyees in every sense of the word? The reality is legit payroll will cost you 9% more from yoir pocket than they recieve. So if you pay 100k in labor at least 109k will come out of your pocket. WC will be at least 4.35cents on every dollar paid and that is basic below 18 ft work. There is an additional 4350 dollars on every 100k. And these are low figures. Realistic though. So if your price point only allows you to live modestly with payong them straight rate then you seriously need to reconsider what your bidding jobs at. If you are only living on 40k after all expendetures, this 13350 hit a year will not feel pleasant. 

The IRS is cracking down on small businesses and the hurt you feel could be way more painful than this stretching of your budget. The reality is if you micromanage your "subconteactors" if they follow you from job to job and you dictate their hours, if you supply them tools, if they do not do legitimate business without you, and most importantly, their pay is structured by the HOUR, they are considered employees.

You dig a hole by going the 1099 emplyee route off the bat because when you ever do go to payroll your employees will want more money to offset their hourly loss in physical dollars that will now be going to Fica and social security. Don't pretend that thesr employees are saving up for taxes. At anything less than 20/hr they are just surviving. A few dollars an hour is going to completely change their bottom line.

With this being said, doing payroll legitimately should help you reexamine teue costs of business ownership. In time it will force the good ones (those that will stick around owning thwir own businesses) to examine their cost structure and in turn what it costs to bid properly. Ad soon as you differentiate yourself from the rest of the upstart fly by the seat of their pants painting outfits, you will come to find that you are NOT competing based on price alone. 

There is so much more that goes into winning a bid. You can charge more if you offer more in a clients mind. It comes with having your chit together. And being truley legal is an eye opening experience that will make you fight to stay lean, mean and consider the true costs of business ownership. It will hurt, but it will protect you. Its not pleasant to pay out more but your employees (especially new hires) will be much more grateful in the long run.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Paradigmzz said:


> Whose tools are they using? Are you on the job dictating what they do? Are they emplyees in every sense of the word? The reality is legit payroll will cost you 9% more from yoir pocket than they recieve. So if you pay 100k in labor at least 109k will come out of your pocket. WC will be at least 4.35cents on every dollar paid and that is basic below 18 ft work. There is an additional 4350 dollars on every 100k. And these are low figures. Realistic though. So if your price point only allows you to live modestly with payong them straight rate then you seriously need to reconsider what your bidding jobs at. If you are only living on 40k after all expendetures, this 13350 hit a year will not feel pleasant.
> 
> The IRS is cracking down on small businesses and the hurt you feel could be way more painful than this stretching of your budget. The reality is if you micromanage your "subconteactors" if they follow you from job to job and you dictate their hours, if you supply them tools, if they do not do legitimate business without you, and most importantly, their pay is structured by the HOUR, they are considered employees.
> 
> ...


I think I am understanding this a little more.
Running a pay roll is scary for a lot of small guys. 
Until 5or6 years ago I wouldn't consider it, as I mostly worked alone or with temp labor. Trying to expand my customer base I realized the quality customers (especially contractors) require you to be more legit, and its the right thing to do. 

I have been working with 'real subs' guys like me that will collaborate on bigger jobs. Sometimes I work for them too. It is like an employee owned company where no one is really the boss. I like this idea in theory, but in reality it's not working for me anymore. In order to take my business where I want it to go, I need employees. People who will do exactly what I want them to do. 
This will mean pay roll, that's a big reason I'm hesitant to expand.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

joshmays1976 said:


> I think I am understanding this a little more.
> Running a pay roll is scary for a lot of small guys.
> Until 5or6 years ago I wouldn't consider it, as I mostly worked alone or with temp labor. Trying to expand my customer base I realized the quality customers (especially contractors) require you to be more legit, and its the right thing to do.
> 
> ...


If you are all splitting the profit, who is actually landing jobs and being compensated for their time and talents peocuring and bidding the job? Are you each just responsible for one aspect of a jobsite? I have yet to see a GC hire two or three carpenters who work on the same aspects of a job site and pay them independently. I guess the better question is, is one person getting the check and then 1099 ing the rest of you? Are you working for a set predetermined amount established before the job began? If it is by the hour, you are definitely blurring the established line between sub and employee.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

The majority of people in the world want a good stable job. If you sub out your work, you are not providing that.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

For the past few years my main partner and I have been doing a 60% 40% split on most jobs. Sixty for me because I do the spray jobs and get
Most contracts. If my partner happened to get a contract, he would get 5-10% more for that. And yes, 1099. Because we both have separate insurance policies, no need for one to pay percentage on the other. The third person in the arrangement is always by the hour, so I see your point about blurring the lines. 

It actually has been a pretty good arrangement for the most part, now the other guy is semi-retired, and we are going in different directions professionally. 

Seems like a long shot that I would ever find anyone else to work with like this. And I need more help to even come close to doing the work available. And I worry that taking on more people and a pay roll would only increase my stress and not my net income. Classic fear of growth I guess. Also doesn't help that I suck at running a business.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

joshmays1976 said:


> For the past few years my main partner and I have been doing a 60% 40% split on most jobs. Sixty for me because I do the spray jobs and get
> Most contracts. If my partner happened to get a contract, he would get 5-10% more for that. And yes, 1099. Because we both have separate insurance policies, no need for one to pay percentage on the other. The third person in the arrangement is always by the hour, so I see your point about blurring the lines.
> 
> It actually has been a pretty good arrangement for the most part, now the other guy is semi-retired, and we are going in different directions professionally.
> ...


Who says you have to run a business? A lot of painters make a fine income by being self employed. Why complicate your arrangement by going legit?


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Who says you have to run a business? A lot of painters make a fine income by being self employed. Why complicate your arrangement by going legit?


I've been in this business a very long time and sadly I see the opposite . Most make a lousy income unless you consider 30-40 grand a year a good income, minus health insurance, minus a good retirement plan, and a nice vehicle. All I see is guys bidding work at 25-35 dollars a manhour and think there making money. It's to late for me to get out but if I could I would. It's way over populated with one man -two man bands and now brokers who sub out to illegals. Sorry but the trade here in Ma and RI where I live and work has gone to sh*t.

Even years ago when Len Fife and others would give seminars on how you should run a legit business and make money. How to properly estimate a job not many listened. It amazes me when I talk with other contractors and they think there successful or making money and when it's laid out in front of them there not! It's not easy being legit it's a whole different ball game running a business and not being a guy with a job. Yes we all have to start somewhere but when painting work both commerical and residential is going for less than 20 yrs ago something's wrong. Personally I think payroll is much easier to run a business as its one less thing for me to do . I use a service and they take care of everything. I have no problem with a legit sub but I guess I'm just old school and when times are slow and a guy has a family it's good for him to be able to collect unemployment. It also breeds loyalty and respect . Just my 2 cts.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Hey Nick It must of been 15 years ago maybe when I took Lyn fife seminar, it was great I still have all his books My market sounds very similar to yours,


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Someone once told me "if you really want to make money the first thing you have to do is stop working". It's true that there is only so much$ to be made in the performance of labor. In our capitalist system the surplus revenue of most labor goes to the organizers, the business people, the managers, etc.

While I can imagine different possible systems in my utopian social fantasies, this is the reality I live in. And I certainly don't begrudge the people doing the organizing, that is certainly work too. My favorite contractor does very little except paper work and phone calls, but he pays me on time, and I never have to negotiate with clients. I make him a lot of money and he deserves it.
As far as job satisfaction, I feel great doing a painting project with my own hands. Doing it the best I can, and doing it fast. I think we all get satisfaction from giving a customer something beautiful. 
But satisfaction is not a retirement account.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> Hey Nick It must of been 15 years ago maybe when I took Lyn fife seminar, it was great I still have all his books My market sounds very similar to yours,


Lyn Fife and Monroe Porter. Both great speakers. :notworthy:


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Lyn Fife and Monroe Porter. Both great speakers. :notworthy:


Yep have heard both a few times also Bob Cosamaro was pretty good to although he focused more on estimating in his seminar. Len is a great guy as well.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Back in '08/09 there was alot of good business discussion around here on painttalk. Members shared and learned alot back then, it seems. And it was fun. It's kind of frowned upon to pull up those threads now, but maybe the new generation of members and forum leaders can get that kind of thing going again.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

If there is a genuine, help full thread feel free to pull it up. I would like to see what one looks like at least


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> If there is a genuine, help full thread feel free to pull it up. I would like to see what one looks like at least


I know what you mean. 

Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.


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## modernfinish (Mar 20, 2013)

Man this thread turned all gloom and doomy ... Make me want to keep my job rather than go out on my own. I'm still going to go for it (legit ). I won't ever be satisfied until I try. I can always work for someone else if it doesn't work out , I see a lot of clowns making it just fine.

Man I'm going to work on my logo some more now...


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.


Aren't you such a fresh ray of sunshine.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Aren't you such a fresh ray of sunshine.


:thumbup:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Aren't you such a fresh ray of sunshine.


We will return to our regular schedule of gloom and doom shortly.:jester:


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

vermontpainter said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.


Funny I pulled up a 6 yr old thread with Paul Burns, Myself, George, Brian Drucks, Brain Phillps and a few others about estimating. Was on another forum but still a great read. Oh a least we forget Richard Kaller who I leaned a great deal from.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

joshmays1976 said:


> Is there really anything illegal about having sub-contractor employees? If they have there own insurance and take 1099's, drive there own cars, etc?
> I understand you are not paying payroll taxes, but they pay self employment taxes instead.
> Is there a technicality I'm missing?


 My problem with the whole thing is how does the IRS expect you to hire an "employee" when you might only need some help for one week a month or a month straight and then nothing for a while. Who wants that kind of job? 
It stinks when I miostly work by myself but I get big jobs now and then and need help. I wish I had enough work to have a full time employee. I cant do it all myself sometimes and wearing out my body trying to. Problem is when the work dries up the "employees" expect you to pay them to wash the truck etc. I just cant afford this.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

If you file self-employed, there is an allowance for temp labor. You can claim up to $600 for each temp laborer, without having there ss#. I'm not sure how many separate people you can claim though. My tax lady at H&R was telling me about it this year.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

joshmays1976 said:


> If you file self-employed, there is an allowance for temp labor. You can claim up to $600 for each temp laborer, without having there ss#. I'm not sure how many separate people you can claim though. My tax lady at H&R was telling me about it this year.


As many as you use.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.


 ....or maybe it has just all been said and discussed to death. With the exception of new products/developments in the industry there just isn't a lot of stuff to discuss that hasn't been hashed out numerous times. I do get a kick out of Steve"s poems!

The industry, economy and the nation itself has changed considerably in the past several years. It is easy for veterans like myself to "enlighten" newcomers on how business "should" be run and conducted. Guys like Monroe Porter have a lot of great things to say and really good insights and advice for newcomers and veterans a like, but if "you" are the only one in your market who is approaching business as such it can be like a salmon swimming upstream. The reality is anymore, is that unfortunately, it doesn't _always_ set you apart in a "good way" that yields a better life.

I have spent my life differentiating myself from the competition with success, but there comes a time when trying to do the right thing by yourself, your employes, your customers and your community simply can price you out of your market. I think who the "typical" painting "contractor" is has changed and I think that is what we are seeing on Paint Talk as well. I think this forum is reflective of the industry as a whole. There was a time when the "legitimate" contractors set the bar. If you flew under the radar so to speak you could undercut these guys and steal some work and make a living in the short term. Most often it would come back to haunt you in the long term and the legitimate guys would prevail and retire to a nice condo in Florida. The other guys would work till they dropped dead because they never contributed to social security, had no health insurance etc., etc. Sooner or later it would come apart big time. Now I see more and more that it is the guys working outside of the legitimate system who are setting the bar and the legitimate guys are constantly trying to operate leaner and meaner trying not to get priced out and stay competitive while still offering quality service and doing right by themselves and their employees. I'm up for it, it's a challenge, it's not impossible, but it's getting harder and harder. I talk to more established and veteran contractors in this area who are considering packing it in and trying something new. I get it & it's really a shame.

Unfortunately, I think many times newer guys hear and take all the good business advice given here and elsewhere and try to implement it, only to get killed out there.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I've been in this business a very long time and sadly I see the opposite . Most make a lousy income unless you consider 30-40 grand a year a good income, minus health insurance, minus a good retirement plan, and a nice vehicle. All I see is guys bidding work at 25-35 dollars a manhour and think there making money. It's to late for me to get out but if I could I would. It's way over populated with one man -two man bands and now brokers who sub out to illegals. Sorry but the trade here in Ma and RI where I live and work has gone to sh*t.
> 
> Even years ago when Len Fife and others would give seminars on how you should run a legit business and make money. How to properly estimate a job not many listened. It amazes me when I talk with other contractors and they think there successful or making money and when it's laid out in front of them there not! It's not easy being legit it's a whole different ball game running a business and not being a guy with a job. Yes we all have to start somewhere but when painting work both commerical and residential is going for less than 20 yrs ago something's wrong. Personally I think payroll is much easier to run a business as its one less thing for me to do . I use a service and they take care of everything. I have no problem with a legit sub but I guess I'm just old school and when times are slow and a guy has a family it's good for him to be able to collect unemployment. It also breeds loyalty and respect . Just my 2 cts.


 Very well said.....:thumbsup:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I have a friend who gives me a lot of exterior repaints, maybe 10 a year. He usually asks for a couple hundred dollars as a finders fee.
Should I 1099 him or offer to put him on payroll?


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.



Scott, I do agree with you, but at the same time feel the old threads and those who participated and made them are the ones who have contributed to the climate that is here. 

Many who had 'been there done that' when a thread is revisited didn't take a mature attitude to help someone going through it for the first time, but took a hazing approach to the new guy or question often cloaked in 'tough love'. This has created a climate of apologizing to the gods (asking not to be ripped) first and asking a question second. 

I enjoyed reading some of the old threads, the enthusiasm, excited about new grounds, new methods and growing. As a former teacher you know that these questions will be revisited year after year after year, and its the teachers roll to push for excellence and accept the individual. 

Maybe some of the old hats need to refresh THEIR attitude with the new members. Repeat their old answers in new ways and continue to help and grow this industry.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> I have a friend who gives me a lot of exterior repaints, maybe 10 a year. He usually asks for a couple hundred dollars as a finders fee.
> Should I 1099 him or offer to put him on payroll?


I'm assuming it would be appropriate to give him a 1099-Misc., but you have the look at the pros and cons. The trade off is that, were he an employee, you could deduct his wages and the associated expenses. Since you're paying him a kickback, if you 1099 him, you can't deduct that. OTOH, how much of a hassle is it for both of you to put him on the books. If he's like a lot of guys in the trades, he'd rather not have a paper trail.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> Many of the builders of the content archives here have moved on. The ones who have stayed have changed their posting habits. Fenner mostly writes about cameras and stuff. George Z does this odd haiku thing. Neps, gone. Timhag, gone. Heidi, gone. Brian Phillips, gone. Bodine, slacker. Gabe found God. RCP retired. Bill now wears dipeys. Jack Puahl turned out to be a real person who actually uses and likes Behr. Remember Wolverine? What a great resource he was. I think he got caught up in that whole "we don't like people who have anything to do with manufacturing" thing. With the exception of one, the mod team is probably so busy sorting out the nonsense here that they really don't have extra time for meaningful contribution. The best regular posters here are being asked to follow rules that aren't even in the posting guidelines...I guess pt has reaped what its sown.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think CliffK summed it up the best.

When I became a member back in 2007, I quickly recognized that PT was geared towards painting contractors rather then painters/employees. The discussions during that time also seemed to be centered around starting a new business. Many of the posters had been impacted by the pending and eventual housing crash, resulting in loss of their former positions in the industry, which prompted the decision to make it on their own. With this new found entrepreneurial spirit, came a surge of self proclaimed marketing experts, graphic artists, web designers, and human resource experts. These were fun times. Particularly when I witnessed the resistance of these start ups who'd incessantly dismiss the advice given by those members like Vermont Painter, NEPS, Aaron, George Z, and Brian, to name a few, and who I came to recognize as true business people. This made for a very entertaining site, supplemented with a wealth of painting and business advice.

Even though we have new members with the same entrepreneurial spirit as we did in the past, the trend has been to tone down the discussions for fear of upsetting anyone.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with Painttalk, it just reflects its membership.
Some of us like Nick, Dave, Paul and others can remember the good old days of PCR.
Remember, for every thread of wisdom from Richard K, Mark H, Paul etc.
there was a lot of garbage too. Way worse than Painttalk is now. 



> George Z does this odd haiku thing


Explain Scott please, (not the definition) just what should I stop doing, or not?
People just change, circumstances change, the economy changes.
For me, in the last year or two, our business needed a lot of attention 
and got very busy getting to it.
We lost some people, needed to hire and train some more,
I thought our website looked like crap for years and decided to work on it,
it was re-designed, I think it is worse now, so I need to re-do it.
In general, it did't feel right sharing business advice with others when
I didn't pay enough attention to my own business.
Maybe others had similar stories of why they are not spending as much time here.

Maybe what Cliff, Paint & Hammer and others said. A lot of the good info is already said. 
We just need to encourage some of the new guys to search and bring up these good old threads.
There is so much info on the "employee vs sub-contractor" thing.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Scott, I do agree with you, but at the same time feel the old threads and those who participated and made them are the ones who have contributed to the climate that is here.
> 
> Many who had 'been there done that' when a thread is revisited didn't take a mature attitude to help someone going through it for the first time, but took a hazing approach to the new guy or question often cloaked in 'tough love'. This has created a climate of apologizing to the gods (asking not to be ripped) first and asking a question second.
> 
> ...


 Interesting & insightful perspective Paul. I know that many times when a newcomer(to PT or the industry) asks a question or brings up a topic that has been discussed to death previously I tend to say to myself..."not this again" & take a pass on replying. I try not to give them any grief(most of the time), but I know some do. Maybe you are correct. If the veterans are not going to take the time to make constructive suggestions and give honest advice then maybe it is hypocritical to the bitch about the state of the industry. 

One of the big problems I have always believed this industry has, is that contractors throw each under under the bus to frequently. Much more so then other industries. I have always said we need to stick together more and that we are on own worst enemies. Maybe it starts with a little more mentoring and less criticism. It may not fix anything, but it certainly can't hurt.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George Z said:


> There is nothing wrong with Painttalk, it just reflects its membership.
> Some of us like Nick, Dave, Paul and others can remember the good old days of PCR.
> Remember, for every thread of wisdom from Richard K, Mark H, Paul etc.
> there was a lot of garbage too. Way worse than Painttalk is now.
> ...


George (and Paul, Nick, etc)

I was kind of kidding about the haiku thing. Your writing style is unique and effective, and the knowledge that you share is very sound. 

It is all part of the evolution of the site, and it is totally a reflection of the membership, and not necessarily the industry. 

For years, I sat here and typed paragraph after paragraph of posts. Thats really not necessary anymore. It would be nice to internally link to some of the older threads, but that usually results in a skirmish if a mod has a pet peeve about old content (the great necro post debate). In lieu of that, members have at times brought in external linking of relevant content from elsewhere to supplement a thread and minimize typing time, also frowned upon. 

As Nick mentioned, many of the common business topics have been done to death, so topics go in other directions which at times land in current events (ie politics), also frowned upon. Many of these frownable issues that cause conflict on the site get confusing as they are not prohibited in the posting rules, and are often selectively enforced depending on the moderator on duty (some have more time to volunteer than others), and the moderators sometimes don't seem to agree with the selective implementation of unstated posting rules. 

Ultimately, I think the new generation of active members who post are doing a good job of keeping to topics that won't cause a stir, and will help them learn. As long as the site is working well for the majority of people who need it and are using it to learn, that is really all that matters. 

On Paul's point about hazing type of behavior, I do think there was an era where the regular posting members were kind of self policing the site, to nip nonsense in the bud. Members don't really need to do that anymore. The moderator team has been increased, and has very solid leadership. The moderators are doing a very good and thankless job. 

I have crossed paths with several of the original pt members in private group discussions on other social media platforms where the discussions are interesting because there are actually real paint contractors who never set foot here but have interesting topics to discuss about paint contracting business and seek sharing and growth. For me, that has kind of replaced the dynamic we used to see here in the original incarnation. 

Painttalk will always continue to evolve and be a great site for sure. I think the current membership will take it to the next level, especially under the guidance of some of the most active long standing posters.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

While agree with many of Scott's comments, I don't agree with some.

There is nothing wrong with Painttalk. 
It is dynamic, so it just reflects it's membership (and it's moderators)
Nothing to fix here, it will evolve just fine as it has been.



> I have crossed paths with several of the original pt members in private group discussions on other social media platforms where the discussions are interesting because there are actually real paint contractors who never set foot here but have interesting topics to discuss about paint contracting business and seek sharing and growth. For me, that has kind of replaced the dynamic we used to see here in the original incarnation.


I have been at some of these "social media platforms" and eventhough I see a lot of value in them :thumbsup:
they are mostly composed and definitely driven by a bunch of people with an agenda.
2-3 marketing people that sell themselves, 
some people that sound like sponsors,
some good industry people like you and Chris doing great work
and some followers.
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the above, I really like social media myself.
Painttalk here is more of a community, almost in it's purest form.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Guys, I think we can honestly say that some old thread bumping is useful and brings good info up top and new posts are relevant.

Other times, threads are bumped for strange reasons that add zero value.

There is a difference, and I assue people here are smart enough to figure out the difference.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

It is easy to feel like we have "been there and done that". But even if it has been said, let stuff be said again. The PT community as a whole is vastly different than it was even a year ago. Just because one belonged to the "old gaurd" doesn't meen rehashing relavant information is not necessarry for the growth and development of this industry. I am moreguilty than most of being impatient with new members posting what seems like basic questions. Who's fault is it for me being an ass? Its mine and taking responsibility for being indifferent or destructive to another is only the first step. Doing something about it is another. For what it is worth, I am trying to not be so quick to unload. 

PT is organic and striping the toxic out of it will allow it to continue to bloom and grow. The same applies to all those who feel they are better than the upstarts because they have more tume into growing their business and have weathered more storms than the upstarts have even begun to comprehend. It is up to those who have been there and done that to lead a new generation of paint contracting entrepenours into the field. Many of these upstarts are hungry to do it right and have absolutely no clue about what it looks like to suceed. The reality is you can choose to be cynical and cry foul or quit your bitchin and breathe life into the future of this trade. In some small way you have the chance to leave a bit of your legacy on the hearts and minds of others, changing and moulding them into something better.

The list is too long for those who have indelably alterred my perception of paint contracting that i have only known from this site. Your words and nuggets of wisdom have created a paridigm shift in how I do business. I am better for the wisdom I have gained on here, even if it had to be sifted through countless threads and filtered over time. 

Thank you all who have long suffered on this site, if it was only meant as a vent site to decompress from a hairied day, your influence upon me will not quickly be forgotten. Your legacy will live on in me.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I agree guys. Just scanned down through todays posts and read a few. The old days had nothing on todays pt. It just gets better and better!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Even the threads about threads are redundant


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I agree guys. Just scanned down through todays posts and read a few. The old days had nothing on todays pt. It just gets better and better!


Hey, if you can spell 'paint' backwards you might be a painting contractor


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Compared to the the General Painting Forum at 145,609 posts, where everything from DIY questions like " I don't intend to hire a professional contractor, but would you please tell me the best quality paint to use, to "Please tell me who's the artist that painted these swans", the Off Topic forum at 62,070, boasts close to 100% more activity then even the Business Zone. And I'm not certain that includes the Political Zone.

So, is PT actually serving what the members seek. I think so.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I wanted to preface my recent post by saying I like the Off Topic forum because the subjects are current, relevant, and provoke thought. Particularly in the PZ. 

Everything else in PT, besides the ongoing development of material, equipment, and management tool technology, can be linked to the following sites:

-OSHA
-Government Labor statistics
-State Labor and Contracting Departments
-SSPC
-PDCA
-State Licensing Boards
-The IRS
-BEVMO


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