# SW ProClassic Kitchen Cabinets - nightmare.



## rptipton

Cabinets were BIN primed + 3 coats of ProClassic + Satin Polycrylic. HO Wanted a durable finish, w/kids and cleaning. Now that the doors are in place, the cabinet not only have a different sheen, appearing more semigloss...but even appear off-white / yellowing! anyone have this happen? Sprayed the doors, rolled the frames...like maybe it didn't coat the same mil ? First I thought it was just lighting....but its plain as day now. Whats the next step...my head is spinning...


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## Repaint Florida

the clear is your problem


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## MikeCalifornia

ditto on the clear, you can't expect a "clear" to just not appear to be there. Take the poly and clear the rest of the cabinets.


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## Jmayspaint

Yeah, the different textures created by spraying the doors/rolling the frames will cause a difference in sheen. It's unavoidable. As far as the yellowing, that's a risk you take clear coating white. Happens sometimes, and sometimes not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PACman

remember this date......I'm.......speechless!


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## epretot

PACman said:


> remember this date......I'm.......speechless!


And we were beginning to think you were a blabber mouth.


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## CApainter

Is this a common practice for painting cabinets?


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## PACman

CApainter said:


> Is this a common practice for painting cabinets?


Unfortunately, it is. Oddly enough it's usually recommended by people who don't actually "sell" the products. Why put a cheap waterbourne poly over a "premium" trim paint? That's why I'm speechless. From telling people coming in to buy the products that it is NOT a good idea. Decorinas! Wth?

If any of you ever run in to the person who is telling people this is the "best" system for cabinets, can you pop them once for me?


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## chrisn

PACman said:


> Unfortunately, it is. Oddly enough it's usually recommended by people who don't actually "sell" the products. Why put a cheap waterbourne poly over a "premium" trim paint? That's why I'm speechless. From telling people coming in to buy the products that it is NOT a good idea. Decorinas! Wth?
> 
> If any of you ever run in to the person who is telling people this is the "best" system for cabinets, can you pop them once for me?


It's such a bad idea but people always ask to have it done. Why? Got me.
Another instance where we have to educate the stupid.:whistling2:


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## rptipton

chrisn said:


> It's such a bad idea but people always ask to have it done. Why? Got me.
> Another instance where we have to educate the stupid.:whistling2:


Yep - ill be honest not something that's usually done, but it was actually recommended by my SW rep if they wanted a clearcoat added...go figure.

So in general, does everyone pretty much agree SW ProClassic in it by itself is perfectly well suited and durable w/out any additional coating? The HO was adamant about a 'durable' wipable' cleanable' surface...similar to factory white cabinets. These were originally hickory.


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## Paradigmzz

Clear is a durable finish in select circumstances. A stain conversion would be one. I would have gone oil in leiu of latex and skipped the clear but in occupied homes thats not always an option. Did you use Polycrilic for the topcoat?


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## rptipton

Paradigmzz said:


> Clear is a durable finish in select circumstances. A stain conversion would be one. I would have gone oil in leiu of latex and skipped the clear but in occupied homes thats not always an option. Did you use Polycrilic for the topcoat?


 
yes. poly was the topcoat. the bin primer was enough to stink them out of their house for a night which is another reason I chose PC. I know oils have yellowed over time and I have never had an issue in the past with Proclassic, usually a very durable finish I thought anyways


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## PACman

rptipton said:


> Yep - ill be honest not something that's usually done, but it was actually recommended by my SW rep if they wanted a clearcoat added...go figure.
> 
> So in general, does everyone pretty much agree SW ProClassic in it by itself is perfectly well suited and durable w/out any additional coating? The HO was adamant about a 'durable' wipable' cleanable' surface...similar to factory white cabinets. These were originally hickory.


Which Proclassic? There are three different ones. And to put it a different way, if I had to pick from 100 different paints to paint cabinets any of the Proclassic versions would probably be in my top 15. Top 20 anyway. Not the absolute best but definitely a good pick.

Now if I had to pick from 100 clear finishes to use on cabinets, Polyacrylic would be dead last.


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## PACman

rptipton said:


> Yep - ill be honest not something that's usually done, but it was actually recommended by my SW rep if they wanted a clearcoat added...go figure.
> 
> So in general, does everyone pretty much agree SW ProClassic in it by itself is perfectly well suited and durable w/out any additional coating? The HO was adamant about a 'durable' wipable' cleanable' surface...similar to factory white cabinets. These were originally hickory.


No surprise to me. His MBA didn't do so well by him this time! Make sure he knows about the problem so he can learn from it. And make sure to ask HIM how to fix it and if he is going to do anything to help you get it fixed. There may be some freebies in it for you.


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## AngieM

I made the same mistake when I started painting. Thank God it was on my project and not a customer's. I'm going to redo it but was wondering if I can just rough it up and repaint it or do I have to strip it?


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## woodcoyote

I'd always recommend a clear over a painted finish for cabinets.

More durability with all the moving parts etc.

But polycrylic is the issue. It's not a hard enough finish or durable enough. 

Plus it yellows when put over white.

Why? Other than resins etc. It's not sold as a water white or water clear finish. In the waterbourne world, if it says that...it won't impart a tint. If it doesn't specifically** say that...it will impart a yellow tint more than likely.

P.s. sherwin doesn't have anything saying that for their waterbased clears. I've had reps call and hot line specialists on the phone...no dice.

Need something like a Target Coatings, General Finishes, or ML Campbell to find what your looking for and only then it has to be water clear or water white. Call manufacturers and they'll set you up straight. 

That will prevent your white or light colors from developing an amber/yellow or tint hue.


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## NACE

Pro classic hybrid or alkyd? Ammonia in the clear yellows the paint.


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## schwartz.matthew.e

rptipton said:


> Yep - ill be honest not something that's usually done, but it was actually recommended by my SW rep if they wanted a clearcoat added...go figure.
> 
> So in general, does everyone pretty much agree SW ProClassic in it by itself is perfectly well suited and durable w/out any additional coating? The HO was adamant about a 'durable' wipable' cleanable' surface...similar to factory white cabinets. These were originally hickory.


Yupp. Great product. 

Sent from my SM-N930T using Tapatalk


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## bobross

Technogod said:


> Spraying a coat of clear coat after latex is an extra protection and it is what i do sometimes as long as they pay for the extra hours and materials.
> 
> But NOT polyurethane.
> Deft has water base ACRYLIC CLEAR COAT and fool proof to spray and rock hard when it cures and i always love the satin over gloss paint.
> IF the base coat is %100 percent Acrylic is ok to spray Cat.LACQUER either.
> 
> these are my experience and it works for me.please don't make argument over chemicals.
> thank you.


Maybe i am reading it wrong. IF the base coat is %100 percent Acrylic is ok to spray Cat.LACQUER either. Are you saying you do spray cat laq over acrylic. I have not had a ggod result with that combo.


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## zoomermp

Might I suggest for next time. Ben Moore Advance semi-gloss or Super Spec DTM alkyd semi gloss. Both are more durable without having to fuss with a clear coat.
Spray both doors and boxes as well. Others mentioned texture difference which is correct. There is a difference in appearance.


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## RH

CApainter said:


> Is this a common practice for painting cabinets?


No, I think it’s a first to have PAC speechless.


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## illusionsgame

chrisn said:


> It's such a bad idea but people always ask to have it done. Why? Got me.
> Another instance where we have to educate the stupid.:whistling2:


This is a good example of how a knowledgeable paint storekeeper could have saved you this headache. I always rely on my store.

Good luck


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## woodcoyote

Polycrylic doesn't say "water white" or "crystal clear". It has to, at minimum, say that for a waterborne finish to not impart a color. 

Sorry you had to learn the hard way. I've seen it happen on samples, so I learned before I got into it that polycrylic does add a tint of yellow. 

No way to reverse it now that's it's on. Only scuff/prime/repaint.


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## damac2004

just found this thread/site by searching google. im no pro but my local sherman williams store sold me this paint and told me its best for the bed and dresser im painting white for my niece.

i already got the piece primed and filled with automotive epoxy.

i wanted to spray the stuff and have done experiments on that but am worried the pieces will hold up now even though they told me i would be good.

can i spray automotive 2 part urethane clearcoat over this sherman williams paint and will it act as a good protecter or should i go with something else?


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## Wolfgang

Nope. The latex takes some time to fully dry. An automotive clear will seal in the paint and not allow it to dry. Problems down the road.

That being said, this site is for professional painters. You may want to go to DIY.com. Tell Gymshu Wolf sent you.


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## PACman

And since someone started this thread up again...... Some of the absolute BEST finishes for cabinets on the market ARE ABSOLUTELY acrylics! Just don't buy what the BS box stores and SW are trying to sell you and move into the 21st century! 30 years ago, 20 years ago, hell probably even 10 years ago i would agree that a waterbourne paint was not the way to go on cabinets. I of anyone was one of the skeptics on this. Until i tried Ultraplate. The simplicity of using it, as well as it's nearly sprayed finish quality, 5H pencil hardness (higher than ANY lacquer or alkyd btw), 4 hour dry to 90% of it's final hardness, and adhesion way, way superior to any commonly available primer sold me on it. And i have more and more customers agreeing with me every single day. So if staying in the dark ages is how you make your money then by all means keep using the products that you use now. I'm in 2018.


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## Zoomer

rptipton said:


> Cabinets were BIN primed + 3 coats of ProClassic + Satin Polycrylic. HO Wanted a durable finish, w/kids and cleaning. Now that the doors are in place, the cabinet not only have a different sheen, appearing more semigloss...but even appear off-white / yellowing! anyone have this happen? Sprayed the doors, rolled the frames...like maybe it didn't coat the same mil ? First I thought it was just lighting....but its plain as day now. Whats the next step...my head is spinning...


.I'm just now reading this post since I don't get a chance to really delve deep into the painttalk website. my first question to you is what in the world were you thinking when you decided to use a clear coat over a premium paint. If I'm not certain on a lot of the things that I do I will always get the advice of an old-timer who painted for his entire career. Those are the guys that have seen everything come down the pipe and are an encyclopedia of information for guys that have painted for many years but still don't know everything. If you are applying a high grade primer and are applying a high grade paint then why would you even consider putting a clear coat over it.
Common Sense tells you that on kitchen cabinets if you put a clear coat and you end up with scratches in the years to come how are you going to repair those scratches or nicks? You would have to first apply paint then let it dry then apply more clear coat in order for the Knicks and scratches to disappear without sticking out like a sore thumb.
if you are not confident in the ability of the primer and the paint then you should not even do the work.
One thing that I learned from my father as well as all of the other Old-Timers is that paint is not bulletproof and it is going to have a scratch or scuff occasionally. That is life. you can only caution the homeowner and tell them to be diligent to do touch up. If they do not then guess what? You are back in business to redo the cabinets again after many years of them being used and abused.I would also recommend instead of going with number two to go with number one and that is Benjamin Moore Advance which is by far the best hybrid paint on the market. Don't forget only one coat per day per the manufacturer's instructions so that the product fully cures and dries.
If you seek out advice from an old-timer I'm sure that you'll find that not once did they ever consider using a clear coat over there work. That is just something that is a fad and is never ever going to be a good solution or something that becomes common standard in our trade.


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## WestKyPainter

PACman said:


> And since someone started this thread up again...... Some of the absolute BEST finishes for cabinets on the market ARE ABSOLUTELY acrylics! Just don't buy what the BS box stores and SW are trying to sell you and move into the 21st century! 30 years ago, 20 years ago, hell probably even 10 years ago i would agree that a waterbourne paint was not the way to go on cabinets. I of anyone was one of the skeptics on this. Until i tried Ultraplate. The simplicity of using it, as well as it's nearly sprayed finish quality, 5H pencil hardness (higher than ANY lacquer or alkyd btw), 4 hour dry to 90% of it's final hardness, and adhesion way, way superior to any commonly available primer sold me on it. And i have more and more customers agreeing with me every single day. So if staying in the dark ages is how you make your money then by all means keep using the products that you use now. I'm in 2018.


I just looked Ultraplate up and it's priced at $228 per gallon!!! My goodness, I just don't think many customers could afford to spend that kind of money on one gallon...so for a two gallon job, we're approaching $500 just in material!! 

You must work for multi millionaires on the reg.


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## Rbriggs82

WestKyPainter said:


> I just looked Ultraplate up and it's priced at $228 per gallon!!! My goodness, I just don't think many customers could afford to spend that kind of money on one gallon...so for a two gallon job, we're approaching $500 just in material!!
> 
> You must work for multi millionaires on the reg.


I dunno where you're looking but I get it sent to my house for $78 which includes shipping. 

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## woodcoyote

PACman said:


> The simplicity of using it, as well as it's nearly sprayed finish quality, 5H pencil hardness (higher than ANY lacquer or alkyd btw), 4 hour dry to 90% of it's final hardness, and adhesion way, way superior to any commonly available primer sold me on it.



Couldn't find any information on the pencil hardness. The data page didn't show anything nor did the website for Ultraplate.


Also couldn't find any information on achieving 90% hardness in 4 hours either. Not advertised or in the data pages. 



I did find the drying times though on the data page:
To Touch
30 minutes
To Handle
2 hours
To Recoat
2 hours
To Wash
Min. 14 days


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## PACman

The pencil hardness i tested myself in my hillbilly test lab using an industry standard test kit. I have been doing this test for 25 years, so take it for what it's worth. The 90% hardness is not shown in any product info or the data sheet because it is dependent on atmospheric conditions and may vary as such. Every painter i have had use it in the last 5 years has basically confirmed it so i have no reason to doubt it. It IS a urethane modified product which means it is partially cured by moisture exposure (humidity in the air) and as such will cure much quicker by that chemical reaction than a typical acrylic or alkyd product.

I had a painter paint a vanity with it and had a crew member lean against it 1/2 hour after application with no marking at all. So dependent on the temp/humidty it does cure very quickly. I have several cabinet shops using it and they all say that doors and fronts can be flipped after as little as 30-40 minutes with no marking or sticking on the painted side when it is laid on a table or sawhorses. But because of the variables they won't put it on an info sheet. 

And to wash means to use a detergent on it. 14 days gives a safety margin so any detergent or abrasive cleaner won't scratch or discolor it.


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## Rbriggs82

That Ultraplate is hands down the best waterborne cabinet paint I've ever used. No question, cabinet coat, advance, breakthrough, proclassic (if you call that a cabinet paint), Emerald Urethane, can't hold a candle to it. It hits the mark on all levels. It's easy to spray brush and roll. It dries fast and hard as fast as breakthrough does. It levels out nicely although I'd give advance the advantage there. The finish looks amazing and it's durable as hell.

I wish I had a local dealer having it shipped is the worst and I fear I might run short on a job which would be a very big problem so I tend to over order. 

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## The Classic Painter

Rbriggs82 said:


> That Ultraplate is hands down the best waterborne cabinet paint I've ever used. No question, cabinet coat, advance, breakthrough, proclassic (if you call that a cabinet paint), Emerald Urethane, can't hold a candle to it. It hits the mark on all levels. It's easy to spray brush and roll. It dries fast and hard as fast as breakthrough does. It levels out nicely although I'd give advance the advantage there. The finish looks amazing and it's durable as hell.
> 
> I wish I had a local dealer having it shipped is the worst and I fear I might run short on a job which would be a very big problem so I tend to over order.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk



Do you have a preferred primer when using Ultraplate ?


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## Rbriggs82

The Classic Painter said:


> Do you have a preferred primer when using Ultraplate ?


For adhesion you're better off just using the Ultraplate, it sticks better than most adhesion primers. For stain blocking I use BIN under it. 

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## Brushman4

Wow, just wow about Ultraplate! But the big problem by me is that the two stores that sell California in my area, don't stock it.
When I asked one of them last year he stated I've got Ultra, but have never heard of Ultraplate.
I explained to him what it was and he replied he can't stock every new God dang paint California sells.
The funny thing is that I recognized the dealer, who used to be a PC that I actually worked for years ago and I said what are you doing selling paint. He replied when the 5hit hit the fan in 2008, he lost by far his biggest account, which was 2-56 story apartment towers that he had the repaints with, in River North and this paint store was for sale so he traded contracting for retailing.
The moral of the story is he's as big a prick now as when I used to work for him, some people never change!


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