# Bullseye 123 -vs- Smart Prime



## Holland

Does anyone have experience with Smart Prime? (the new primer from Zinsser)
Does anyone know how SmartPrime sprays?
What are your feelings about it after having used it?
No, I cant get Benjamin Moore.

I had an opportunity to compare Bullseye 123 to Smart Prime this week, in a direct comparison. This is the first time using SmartPrime.
(*I am not the best at painting cabinets. I'm learning. Rolling thecabinet boxes (shown) due to workplace limitations, and will be spraying the doors later.

When I cant spray, or when sensitivity to chemicals or smell is an issue, Bullseye123 is the preferred primer for interior painting. It has fairly good adhesion to most interior surfaces, levels beautifully, but can have poor blocking ability (like most water-based primers) in regards to tannins and other wood-type stains and leeching. 123 is also somewhat transparent, making multiple coats sometimes necessary.

Due to a few recurring, persistent stains (shown in picture below) that kept coming through the primer (Bullseye 123), I switched to Smart Prime.

Smart Primer claims to encapsulate tannins/staining/leeching/bleedthrough "in" the primer coat, preventing it from traveling into top-coats. Rustoleum (the manufacture) claims that Smart Prime is an Acrylic Primer (similar to Bullseye 123) but with modified resins that give it the ability block stains better.

*BULLSEYE 123:* 








This is 2x coats of Bullseye 123 primer on Varnish Oak (washed with white vinegar and water, sanded, and cleaned). Although the yellow staining was minimal it was persistent in several places, and came through both coats of 123 primer immediately.

Rolled with a 3/8" microfiber roller, the primer laid down to a smooth finish (glycol ethers act as a leveling agent).
Allows for topcoat in 1 hour.









Bullseye 123 has poor coverage x1 coat.

*SMART PRIME: *
I found that Smart Prime had much better coverage, and that the stains did not come back through when primed with Smart Prime. However, it has a thicker consistency. Just one coat of Smart Prime left a subtle, but are noticeable orange peel texture when finished in the same way as 123 (3/8" microfiber mini roller). At this point I did not compare sandability or sprayability - anyone have any insight on these issues?









x1 coat of Smart Prime blocked the bleeed-through immediately.

Smart Prime is thicker than Bullseye123, offering better coverage, but does not level out as nicely and leaves a subtle orange peel when rolled. Allows for topcoat in one hour.


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## Masterwork

I will tell you one thing, coverage doesn't mean squat when you're blocking stains or looking for adhesion. The fact that you can see through one coat of 123 doesn't matter. Your finish coats are what you want to be good for covering. 

The only exception might be if you're going from a black wall to a white wall, in which case, a good covering primer would save some money vs finish paint. 

Now, for tannins, I've never had good luck with 123. I can't seem to find smart prime anywhere in Canada, even though it's listed on the rustoleum website. If you're able, you should experiment with your doors. Try some with the smart prime and some with the 123.


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## finishesbykevyn

Until I hear back from you on these experiments, i'm sticking with BIN. Atleast for the first coat. I am currently experimenting with ppg sealgrip at the shop on some dark stained wood..just don't have confidence in the latex primers.


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## Masterwork

I want to try that Duralaq undercoater that coco keeps bringing up.


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Until I hear back from you on these experiments, i'm sticking with BIN. Atleast for the first coat. I am currently experimenting with ppg sealgrip at the shop on some dark stained wood..just don't have confidence in the latex primers.


Do you roll BIN?

How do you manage the explosion hazard, assuming you’re spraying? I did mention in the post that I use these primers when spraying isn’t an option. What do you use when spraying isn’t an option?

how do you handle complaints from customer regarding smell, noxious odors from BIN in home?


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## Holland

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## cocomonkeynuts

Masterwork said:


> I want to try that Duralaq undercoater that coco keeps bringing up.


Spray only! Do not attempt to brush this primer


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## Holland

close-Close-up of Bullseye 123 on Oak trim. 

It levels beautifully and has very little build. 
Only major drawback is that it does not black tannins or other wood stains.


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## DeanV

I used to use the Duralaq WB primer. Great adhesion, great build, great sanding. The only thing that made me nervous was that stains from oak cabinet would bleed like crazy through one or two coats of primer. BUT, I never had a stain bleed through an acrylics trim paint top coat (at least that I am aware of) but the fact that it would keep bleeding through each coat of primer made me nervous that it would eventually bleed through a top coat. If the stain did not keep badly bleeding through each coat of primer, I would have more confidence. Synthetic BIN did well, but sanded horribly and I heard from my rep that some painters had problems with it, so I migrated back to BIN. I am currently using a WB product that seems to block almost all tannin bleed from things like oak cabinets, just a few spots here and there that need the rattle can treatment.


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## cocomonkeynuts

DeanV said:


> I used to use the Duralaq WB primer. Great adhesion, great build, great sanding. The only thing that made me nervous was that stains from oak cabinet would bleed like crazy through one or two coats of primer. BUT, I never had a stain bleed through an acrylics trim paint top coat (at least that I am aware of) but the fact that it would keep bleeding through each coat of primer made me nervous that it would eventually bleed through a top coat. If the stain did not keep badly bleeding through each coat of primer, I would have more confidence. Synthetic BIN did well, but sanded horribly and I heard from my rep that some painters had problems with it, so I migrated back to BIN. I am currently using a WB product that seems to block almost all tannin bleed from things like oak cabinets, just a few spots here and there that need the rattle can treatment.


The general finishes stain blocker works really well and sands nicely if you ever get a chance to use it. Costs 2x as much as BIN though.


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## DeanV

I only tried that one once, some red dye stain was bleeding through BIN and it helped with that.


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## fromthenorthwest

Just my own experience but I've used smart prime on the last 7 or 8 cabinet sets and had great results with adhesion and stain blocking. First job I use the smart prime on, I had an oak set and originally primed with aqua lock. Well the tannins bled through like crazy in a couple areas, so I went back to my store and he gave me smart prime. Been using it since and really no complaints.

Pretty much just spraying, but Holland i wonder if you threw a little extender in there it may level out better when rolling. Seems to level pretty good sprayed, doesn't orange peel or anything.

I wouldn't mind trying BIN someday, but I haven't used it much at all and I'm hesitant to try it out in somebody's house, plus I just have one pump run 95% water-based through it.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Have you ever used Bullseye 123?
> Or SmartPrime?


 I've used tons of 123 over the years. It's been around forever. It has it's place in the world, but not for kitchen cabinets imo. Can't get the Smart-prime around my parrts unfortunately.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Do you roll BIN?
> 
> How do you manage the explosion hazard, assuming you’re spraying? I did mention in the post that I use these primers when spraying isn’t an option. What do you use when spraying isn’t an option?
> 
> how do you handle complaints from customer regarding smell, noxious odors from BIN in home?


 I spray the BIN at my shop, but yes we roll it on site. It's not that bad. Crack a couple windows and it dissipates pretty fast. You have to move pretty quick, but any imperfections sand out very easily. I actually find the smell of Stix Primer just as bad or worse. All the Ammonia in there. We're not talking about alot of space here. Just the boxes. I would prefer a little more ventilation at my shop, but again I'm not spraying large quantities here. I'll spray 5 or 6 doors and then leave the booth for a few minutes to let things air out.


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## finishesbykevyn

Masterwork said:


> I want to try that Duralaq undercoater that coco keeps bringing up.


 I believe that's for new wood application only.


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## Holland

*SOW -* I wasn't clear on the scope of work for this project. It includes more than just cabinets. We are painting all the trim and doors and woodwork (and walls and ceilings) on two levels 'in-place', and all the cabinets and build-ins (removing all doors and spraying in-owner's garage). We have five days to finish the upstairs, and another week and a half to complete the downstairs. It is a crazy flip for someone who wants t move into it soon, and we are working around other contractors as well..

I'm not sure how it would be possible to even consider BIN primer for this application, or any of the other primers I've never heard of.

*Does everybody else spray trim and window casing in place? I don't think thats even a possibility here. *

For base and doors, should I sand everything after priming? That might be too time consuming. Is there a product that could help me avoid sanding after priming? I was thinking of just just priming and painting (and skip sanding for trim), and spray all the parts I can remove.

I dislike doing this kind of work, but I would like to find a way to do it better (and still finish before the moving truck pulls in).
How would you do it?


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## Holland

fromthenorthwest said:


> Just my own experience but I've used smart prime on the last 7 or 8 cabinet sets and had great results with adhesion and stain blocking. First job I use the smart prime on, I had an oak set and originally primed with aqua lock. Well the tannins bled through like crazy in a couple areas, so I went back to my store and he gave me smart prime. Been using it since and really no complaints.
> 
> Pretty much just spraying, but Holland i wonder if you threw a little extender in there it may level out better when rolling. Seems to level pretty good sprayed, doesn't orange peel or anything.
> 
> I wouldn't mind trying BIN someday, but I haven't used it much at all and I'm hesitant to try it out in somebody's house, plus I just have one pump run 95% water-based through it.


Appreciate the feedback. Sounds like you like SmartPrime? 
Are you spraying it straight - or using extender or water? Airless? How long do you wait before safe to sand?
Will try the extender, good suggestion, thanks.


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## Holland

-


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I've used tons of 123 over the years. It's been around forever. It has it's place in the world, *but not for kitchen cabinets imo*. Can't get the Smart-prime around my parrts unfortunately.


why not?
in your opinion what "place" is that?


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## Holland

DeanV said:


> I used to use the Duralaq WB primer. Great adhesion, great build, great sanding. The only thing that made me nervous was that stains from oak cabinet would bleed like crazy through one or two coats of primer. BUT, I never had a stain bleed through an acrylics trim paint top coat (at least that I am aware of) but the fact that it would keep bleeding through each coat of primer made me nervous that it would eventually bleed through a top coat. If the stain did not keep badly bleeding through each coat of primer, I would have more confidence. Synthetic BIN did well, but sanded horribly and I heard from my rep that some painters had problems with it, so I migrated back to BIN. I am currently using a WB product that seems to block almost all tannin bleed from things like oak cabinets, just a few spots here and there that need the rattle can treatment.


@DeanV,
have you ever used 123?
I posted the SOW for what I am working on in the comment section. Do you have a better suggestion for a primer for that application? I am using 123, but trying out SmartPrime.

*Good suggestion about spot-priming with BIN (rattle can). Should have thought of that.


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## monarchski

Holland said:


> Does anyone have experience with Smart Prime? (the new primer from Zinsser)
> Does anyone know how SmartPrime sprays?
> What are your feelings about it after having used it?
> No, I cant get Benjamin Moore.
> 
> I had an opportunity to compare Bullseye 123 to Smart Prime this week, in a direct comparison. This is the first time using SmartPrime.
> (*I am not the best at painting cabinets. I'm learning. Rolling the oak cabinets (shown) with primer, and will be spraying the doors later.
> 
> When I cant spray, or when sensitivity to chemicals or smell is an issue, Bullseye123 is the preferred primer for interior painting. It has fairly good adhesion to most interior surfaces, levels beautifully, but can have poor blocking ability (like most water-based primers) in regards to tannins and other wood-type stains and leeching. 123 is also somewhat transparent, making multiple coats sometimes necessary.
> 
> Due to a few recurring, persistent stains (shown in picture below) that kept coming through the primer (Bullseye 123), I switched to Smart Prime.
> 
> Smart Primer claims to encapsulate tannins/staining/leeching/bleedthrough "in" the primer coat, preventing it from traveling into top-coats. Rustoleum (the manufacture) claims that Smart Prime is an Acrylic Primer (similar to Bullseye 123) but with modified resins that give it the ability block stains better.
> 
> *BULLSEYE 123:*
> View attachment 111531
> 
> This is 2x coats of Bullseye 123 primer on Varnish Oak (washed with white vinegar and water, sanded, and cleaned). Although the yellow staining was minimal it was persistent in several places, and came through both coats of 123 primer immediately.
> 
> Rolled with a 3/8" microfiber roller, the primer laid down to a smooth finish (glycol ethers act as a leveling agent).
> Allows for topcoat in 1 hour.
> 
> View attachment 111533
> 
> Bullseye 123 has poor coverage x1 coat.
> 
> *SMART PRIME: *
> I found that Smart Prime had much better coverage, and that the stains did not come back through when primed with Smart Prime. However, it has a thicker consistency. Just one coat of Smart Prime left a subtle, but are noticeable orange peel texture when finished in the same way as 123 (3/8" microfiber mini roller). At this point I did not compare sandability or sprayability - anyone have any insight on these issues?
> 
> View attachment 111538
> 
> x1 coat of Smart Prime blocked the bleeed-through immediately.
> 
> Smart Prime is thicker than Bullseye123, offering better coverage, but does not level out as nicely and leaves a subtle orange peel when rolled. Allows for topcoat in one hour.


I don't roll it but have had great success spraying it using a 410 or 412 Titan FFLP (purple head) tip. One coat on woods like maple and 2 for woods with more open grain. Had a tannin bleed on one set of cabinets and a second coat of Smart Prime took care of that. It sands okay, not as well as some but it has a little bit of sheen almost like a finish so it has a smoother finish as soon as it's dry. No blocking issues at all. I'm sold on this product.


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## Holland

monarchski said:


> I don't roll it but have had great success spraying it using a 410 or 412 Titan FFLP (purple head) tip. One coat on woods like maple and 2 for woods with more open grain. Had a tannin bleed on one set of cabinets and a second coat of Smart Prime took care of that. It sands okay, not as well as some but it has a little bit of sheen almost like a finish so it has a smoother finish as soon as it's dry. No blocking issues at all. I'm sold on this product.


thank you. Did you sand after priming, or straight to painting? If so, how soon is it safe to sand?


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## monarchski

Holland said:


> thank you. Did you sand after priming, or straight to painting? If so, how soon is it safe to sand?


The Smart Prime seems to be more forgiving than some WB primers as far as sanding really well before priming to get good adhesion but I still do it so I'm left with a pretty smooth finish after I prime. But I still do some detail sanding with a fine pad before I start applying finish. I'm kind of a wait overnight to sand kind of guy unless it's something small so I may not be the best source of information for that but I'd be willing to bet it would start to powder up in 3-4 hours. TDS sheet states 7 days full cure.


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## Holland

monarchski said:


> The Smart Prime seems to be more forgiving than some WB primers as far as sanding really well before priming to get good adhesion but I still do it so I'm left with a pretty smooth finish after I prime. But I still do some detail sanding with a fine pad before I start applying finish. I'm kind of a wait overnight to sand kind of guy unless it's something small so I may not be the best source of information for that but I'd be willing to bet it would start to powder up in 3-4 hours. TDS sheet states 7 days full cure.


got it, thanks.
Going to try spraying SP on the cabinet doors for this job.

So far, my feeling is that 123 rolls out much better, (going to try SP with some extender today) but that SmartPrime is better in almost every other way.


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## Holland




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## Masterwork

finishesbykevyn said:


> I spray the BIN at my shop, but yes we roll it on site. It's not that bad. Crack a couple windows and it dissipates pretty fast. You have to move pretty quick, but any imperfections sand out very easily. I actually find the smell of Stix Primer just as bad or worse. All the Ammonia in there. We're not talking about alot of space here. Just the boxes. I would prefer a little more ventilation at my shop, but again I'm not spraying large quantities here. I'll spray 5 or 6 doors and then leave the booth for a few minutes to let things air out.


I hope you're wearing organic vapour cartridges when you're rolling it, not just when spraying. The alcohol in the shellac will kill you. No joke.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Then why not say that, instead of diverting the course of this post? At least mention the main topic somewhere in the reply, so I know you read the post.
> 
> The post title and content was exclusively 123 -vs-SmartPrime. I don't mind constructive debate (in fact I appreciate it), but some contributions on my posts lately seem to be derailing the subject of the threads.


I'm not diverting anything. I gave my opinion on 123. Take it or leave it. Why don't you search the multiple threads on Smart Prime. There are already several of them FYI.


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## Redux

Although I haven’t used Smart Prime, and technical info on the product is somewhat lacking, my guess is that it’s a low pH primer very similar in composition to GF’s stain blocking primer which has a pH of ~ 5, whereas 123 is probably much more alkaline as are most acrylics. Tannins aren’t as readily soluble in acidic solutions, which is why low pH stain blocking water borne primers perform better @ blocking tannins than high pH acrylics...so I think.


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## Masterwork

What about the other Zinsser ones? Isn't there a water based shellac? Again, not something I can get in Canada.


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland said:


> Appreciate the feedback. Sounds like you like SmartPrime?
> Are you spraying it straight - or using extender or water? Airless? How long do you wait before safe to sand?
> Will try the extender, good suggestion, thanks.


I spray it straight no extender, with a titan 440. Definitely sandable next day. I may have sanded that same day a few times but i dont recall. I usually don't do much work on them until the next day.


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## Holland

fromthenorthwest said:


> I spray it straight no extender, with a titan 440. Definitely sandable next day. I may have sanded that same day a few times but i dont recall. I usually don't do much work on them until the next day.


thanks. You've been very helpful.
You changed your avatar. What kind of guitar in background of old avatar?


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## Holland

monarchski said:


> I don't roll it but have had great success spraying it using a 410 or 412 Titan FFLP (purple head) tip. One coat on woods like maple and 2 for woods with more open grain. Had a tannin bleed on one set of cabinets and a second coat of Smart Prime took care of that. It sands okay, not as well as some but it has a little bit of sheen almost like a finish so it has a smoother finish as soon as it's dry. No blocking issues at all. I'm sold on this product.


Thank you @monarchski for specs on tips and sanding feedback.


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland said:


> thanks. You've been very helpful.
> You changed your avatar. What kind of guitar in background of old avatar?


Glad to help Lord knows I get a lot of it around here. Yep haha figured I'd change it up. That's a Yamaha 12-string and the others an old Silvertone.


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## Holland

fromthenorthwest said:


> Glad to help Lord knows I get a lot of it around here. Yep haha figured I'd change it up. That's a Yamaha 12-string and the others an old Silvertone.


nice shop!


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## Susan

Holland
My advice to you based on the photos is to use an oil based primer. There is no shortcut.


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland said:


> nice shop!


Thanks! Somebody's garage actually, wish it was my shop though!


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## Rbriggs82

I don't have too much experience with 123 but after some testing I used Smartprime for the first time a couple weeks ago on a set of cabinets.

I only sprayed it and it sprayed nice, it didn't lay down as smooth as bin but after an over night dry it sanded easily and smooth plus nothing bled through.

My problems began when topcoating it with v50 Breakthrough. While spraying the first coat I saw that it looked like it was going on a little weird but kept going and let it dry. When dry it had a good amount of texture and what looked like little pin holes throughout the entire surface. I sanded it smooth (Breakthrough sands so nice) and decided maybe it was the older tip I was using so I switched to a new one.

Second coat was a repeat of the first, little pinholes and rough texture. So now I wasn't sure what to do and thought maybe it was the Breakthrough because I mixed in a six month old 3/4 of the way full can in with the newer stuff. One can was from a bm dealer and the new can from from a ppg store. So I sanded them smooth again and got all new paint from ppg.

Same thing happened and this job has quickly turned into a nightmare. The only thing left to blame is the smartprime so I sanded smooth again and sprayed them with Bin. It went on nice and smooth as always, when it was dry I sprayed the Breakthrough again and it was perfect. 

I'm not saying that's going to happen with every paint going over smartprime but I can 100% tell you that it's not compatible with v50 Breakthrough. I don't understand why, it's a shame because it had so much promise but I'll be passing on it from now on.


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## Holland

Rbriggs82 said:


> I don't have too much experience with 123 but after some testing I used Smartprime for the first time a couple weeks ago on a set of cabinets.
> 
> I only sprayed it and it sprayed nice, it didn't lay down as smooth as bin but after an over night dry it sanded easily and smooth plus nothing bled through.
> 
> My problems began when topcoating it with v50 Breakthrough. While spraying the first coat I saw that it looked like it was going on a little weird but kept going and let it dry. When dry it had a good amount of texture and what looked like little pin holes throughout the entire surface. I sanded it smooth (Breakthrough sands so nice) and decided maybe it was the older tip I was using so I switched to a new one.
> 
> Second coat was a repeat of the first, little pinholes and rough texture. So now I wasn't sure what to do and thought maybe it was the Breakthrough because I mixed in a six month old 3/4 of the way full can in with the newer stuff. One can was from a bm dealer and the new can from from a ppg store. So I sanded them smooth again and got all new paint from ppg.
> 
> Same thing happened and this job has quickly turned into a nightmare. The only thing left to blame is the smartprime so I sanded smooth again and sprayed them with Bin. It went on nice and smooth as always, when it was dry I sprayed the Breakthrough again and it was perfect.
> 
> I'm not saying that's going to happen with every paint going over smartprime but I can 100% tell you that it's not compatible with v50 Breakthrough. I don't understand why, it's a shame because it had so much promise but I'll be passing on it from now on.


@Rbriggs82,
Thanks for feedback. It is understandable that you might be hesitant to use SP after encountering possible compatibility issues. This is the first time I've used it, so I don't know much about it. I like Bullseye 123 and it is readily available in these parts- it is great for interior work, especially when spraying is not an option (like the current location I'm at) aside from the tannin bleed issue (which is a significant failing of 123).

It is tempting to use BIN because it lays down so smooth, dries fast, and sands like butter, but I refuse to spray BIN or use it for large large projects (only spot priming). The long-term irreversible health risks (there are several significant warnings), and the extreme flammability (heavier than oxygen, 60% alcohol?) outweighs the benefits in my mind. 
Collected vapors can find their way along the floor to a pilot light, to say nothing of the health concerns related just to get a little nicer finish?


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## Holland

Adding M1 extender to SmartPrime (aka Bullseye123 Plus) helped with leveling. Much less orange peel and did not affect stain blocking properties.
@fromthenorthwest. Good suggestion,









For anyone interested, I was able to sand to powder in one hour. Tried to show how fine the powder was in photo, not sure if it came through.


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## kentdalimp

Holland said:


> *SOW -* I wasn't clear on the scope of work for this project. It includes more than just cabinets. We are painting all the trim and doors and woodwork (and walls and ceilings) on two levels 'in-place', and all the cabinets and build-ins (removing all doors and spraying in-owner's garage). We have five days to finish the upstairs, and another week and a half to complete the downstairs. It is a crazy flip for someone who wants t move into it soon, and we are working around other contractors as well..
> 
> I'm not sure how it would be possible to even consider BIN primer for this application, or any of the other primers I've never heard of.
> 
> *Does everybody else spray trim and window casing in place? I don't think thats even a possibility here. *
> 
> For base and doors, should I sand everything after priming? That might be too time consuming. Is there a product that could help me avoid sanding after priming? I was thinking of just just priming and painting (and skip sanding for trim), and spray all the parts I can remove.
> 
> I dislike doing this kind of work, but I would like to find a way to do it better (and still finish before the moving truck pulls in).
> How would you do it?


Hoping you have this under control by now. Can't really offer suggestions on Smart Prime as I have only ever used it once on Gyp Walls. 

As for how to approach the job, My question would be: 

Are you priming everything? Walls/Ceilings/Trim/Doors? 
Can you work a later shift to be in the house after everyone is gone? (Maybe something like Noon-8PM?)
If you are priming everything I would likely go in and prep it all, then when the other crews left at 5pm I would prime everything in one go. 

Next day, sand the Trim Down and Spray it stating at 5pm. 

Next day, if you can paint the ceilings during the day, do that (Brush and Roll) Then finish the second Trim coat that night. 

From there its just a matter of painting the walls and ceilings during the day and staying a little later to have the house to yourself. 

Not sure if that will work in this instance, but it's the best I can come up with given the info provided! 

Good Luck!


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## Holland

kentdalimp said:


> Hoping you have this under control by now. Can't really offer suggestions on Smart Prime as I have only ever used it once on Gyp Walls.
> 
> As for how to approach the job, My question would be:
> 
> Are you priming everything? Walls/Ceilings/Trim/Doors?
> Can you work a later shift to be in the house after everyone is gone? (Maybe something like Noon-8PM?)
> If you are priming everything I would likely go in and prep it all, then when the other crews left at 5pm I would prime everything in one go.
> 
> Next day, sand the Trim Down and Spray it stating at 5pm.
> 
> Next day, if you can paint the ceilings during the day, do that (Brush and Roll) Then finish the second Trim coat that night.
> 
> From there its just a matter of painting the walls and ceilings during the day and staying a little later to have the house to yourself.
> 
> Not sure if that will work in this instance, but it's the best I can come up with given the info provided!
> 
> Good Luck!


We are juggling.

edit: Yes, we are painting everything. Sorry, wrote previous response while on break.

Your suggestions are good ones, particularly with regards to logistics about how to spray in that environment. I'm not sure spraying would be possible there, even at night. About half the lights are missing, but also the owners have been working there at night.

This week was extremely stressful figuring it out. I really like SmartPrime. So far I'm sold on it, will know better when this job is over.

We finished the trim upstairs today. The Owner is happy with results, although will need to inspect and touch-up - can see there is some debris in the finish here and there. We skipped sanding between primer because of the extremely tight deadline. For a 're-paint' - which this clearly is, I feel like the end result will be in keeping with the age of the home. Easy enough to touch-up at any point, as needed.

Good to hear from you @kentdalimp!


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## Respec

Interesting that you had pin holes with B


Rbriggs82 said:


> I don't have too much experience with 123 but after some testing I used Smartprime for the first time a couple weeks ago on a set of cabinets.
> 
> I only sprayed it and it sprayed nice, it didn't lay down as smooth as bin but after an over night dry it sanded easily and smooth plus nothing bled through.
> 
> My problems began when topcoating it with v50 Breakthrough. While spraying the first coat I saw that it looked like it was going on a little weird but kept going and let it dry. When dry it had a good amount of texture and what looked like little pin holes throughout the entire surface. I sanded it smooth (Breakthrough sands so nice) and decided maybe it was the older tip I was using so I switched to a new one.
> 
> Second coat was a repeat of the first, little pinholes and rough texture. So now I wasn't sure what to do and thought maybe it was the Breakthrough because I mixed in a six month old 3/4 of the way full can in with the newer stuff. One can was from a bm dealer and the new can from from a ppg store. So I sanded them smooth again and got all new paint from ppg.
> 
> Same thing happened and this job has quickly turned into a nightmare. The only thing left to blame is the smartprime so I sanded smooth again and sprayed them with Bin. It went on nice and smooth as always, when it was dry I sprayed the Breakthrough again and it was perfect.
> 
> I'm not saying that's going to happen with every paint going over smartprime but I can 100% tell you that it's not compatible with v50 Breakthrough. I don't understand why, it's a shame because it had so much promise but I'll be passing on it from now on.


Interesting that you had pinholes over Smartprime with Breakthrough. I just finished an oak cabinet job where we filled the grain, used Inls-X Primelock (oil), and Breakthrough top coat and also had pin holes. I thought they were due to minor grain filling that we may have missed even though we didn't see it after the final prime coat. We did sand before applying finish coats, so I thought I may have opened up tiny pin holes, but maybe it was a reaction with Breakthrough. We had a couple of them on almost every door. I found the best way to fill them was hitting them with a tiny dab of the top coat and sanding before final finish and that seemed to do the trick.


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## Rbriggs82

Respec said:


> Interesting that you had pin holes with B
> 
> 
> Interesting that you had pinholes over Smartprime with Breakthrough. I just finished an oak cabinet job where we filled the grain, used Inls-X Primelock (oil), and Breakthrough top coat and also had pin holes. I thought they were due to minor grain filling that we may have missed even though we didn't see it after the final prime coat. We did sand before applying finish coats, so I thought I may have opened up tiny pin holes, but maybe it was a reaction with Breakthrough. We had a couple of them on almost every door. I found the best way to fill them was hitting them with a tiny dab of the top coat and sanding before final finish and that seemed to do the trick.


I wish I took a picture. It was throughout the entire surface and the Breakthrough dried with a nasty rough texture after the first coat. I sanded it smooth and it did it again on the second coat. Sanded it smooth again and switched to bin and all was good, super weird but I can definitely say that smartprime and Breakthrough do not play nice with each other. 

Shame because I had high hopes for it after running through some tests on sample doors. Next time I'm going to include topcoating on my samples, lesson learned.


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## Holland

We finished painting the upstairs of this 'flip' the other day, and thought I'd share some pics, and feedback regarding Smart Prime (aka:123Plus). 

I like it. It will probably become my new interior primer for residential repaints. For everything upstairs we brushed and rolled, and did not sand between coats. Topcoated w/ SW Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd - did not have any issues regarding compatibility.


For brush and roll I like Smart Prime (w/ a little M-1 additive). Will probably continue to use it. *Sandable in 1 hour*, but found that it didn't require a lot of sanding, as it leveled to a fairly smooth finish.

*Will be spraying next week. Excited to see if I have a new waterbased primer (non-explosive and less toxic) for interior and cabinet work!!


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## Joe67

You missed a spot


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## Masterwork

Why not sand between coats? It's not so much for visual appearance as it is for feel. You run your hand across a wall that wasn't sanded between coats and it's always obvious.


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## Holland

Masterwork said:


> Why not sand between coats? It's not so much for visual appearance as it is for feel. You run your hand across a wall that wasn't sanded between coats and it's always obvious.


Time constraints. We have had other contractors on our tailcoats from day one: today it was carpet cleaners upstairs and duct cleaning.

I explained to the customer that sanding between coats would give a nicer look and feel, but she said flat out ‘no, it’s fine’. It really looks and feels pretty good, even without sanding, aside from the occasional bit of something here and there that got in the top-coat.

*We will be sanding between primer coat and top coat on cabinet doors.

Smart primer is a good primer for this application. Bullseye 123 had tanning bleed in the first few rooms we did. Did not see anything in top coat where Smart Prime was used.


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland I think you will like the smart Prime for the cabinets too, I've had great results with it.

However, like Briggs said earlier and I have also had trouble with, if you use Breakthrough it might not play well. Although I suspect breakthrough may play a part of the problem, as another user said he has had pinhole issues with breakthrough. I think breakthrough is just a difficult product to spray, especially with an airless. Such a fine line between too heavy and runny, versus not enough and orange peel / pinholes. For the most part now I use Scuff-X and have had no problems with smart Prime.


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## DeanV

I have not tried SmartPrime yet. It does sound like an option. I have not found the perfect waterborne primer yet.


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## Pro Color

We like the urethane acrylic 123, however, haven't used it on cabinets.


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## Holland

Pro Color said:


> We like the urethane acrylic 123, however, haven't used it on cabinets.


I called the Mfg (Rustoleum) and they told me 123 plus (SmartPrime) was an acrylic primer with modified resins, and that it was not a urethane. I specifically asked about this.


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## Holland

Sprayed SmartPrime today.

There were two of us spraying, and we were both glad to be using something that didn't make us feel sick, or cover our hair and clothes like the toxic avenger. I am hopeful that this is a waterbased primer that will work for me as a "universal interior" primer: blocks tannins, good adhesion, levels smooth, can be sanded to powder in a reasonable time, and is compatible with the paints I use.

Cabinets were sanded and cleaned with white vinegar+water, and allowed to dry overnight.
Sprayed SP straight from the can (did not add extender) with Titan400 and Synergy 310 FF tip. Other than a few clogs in the tip after working for a few hours, it sprayed smooth and even (very easy), and dried in a little over 2 hours (the stacking slowed dry times).

There is evidence of tannins bleeding into the primer, but am assured by mfgr that once dry it will be encapsulated in the primer coat, and should not bleed into top coat. There is a slight orange peel when sprayed, but leveled out significantly when dry (almost disappearing).



















*will add pictures tomorrow of what they look like when dry...

I'm not the most experienced sprayer, but most of the orange peel that is visible in the pics should level-out while drying. Seems pretty forgiving, as someone else stated.


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## Holland

This is the first time I've sprayed oak cabinets, so I don't really have anything to compare for how it should look. The grain is really open on some of the doors, but luckily the customer likes that the grain is showing. 

First coat primer, sprayed (and dry):


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## fromthenorthwest

Hope you like that smart Prime Holland, it's sure been a lifesaver for me to not have to use oil much anymore. And yes I have not had any tannins make it through to the top coat with it yet. 

I see you've got the door rack painter? Or similar setup. Is that a set-up you can spray both sides at the same time or do you need to let dry between sides? I still spray the doors vertically but I've been considering changing to spraying them flat, just to help with leveling out of coatings and reducing probability of runs.


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## Holland

fromthenorthwest said:


> Hope you like that smart Prime Holland, it's sure been a lifesaver for me to not have to use oil much anymore. And yes I have not had any tannins make it through to the top coat with it yet.
> 
> I see you've got the door rack painter? Or similar setup. Is that a set-up you can spray both sides at the same time or do you need to let dry between sides? I still spray the doors vertically but I've been considering changing to spraying them flat, just to help with leveling out of coatings and reducing probability of runs.


@fromthenorthwest,

Definitely sold on SmartPrime. Agree that it is a lifesaver for me too, not to have to use oil or other solvent-based primers. Thank you for your help previously, very thankful for your suggestions, especially mentioning using an extender, which turned out exactly what was needed to make the trim look good.

Going to post a few more pics in the next post to show primer and top-coat step...

I started using the DoorRackPainter - Rotating Spray Rack, as recommended to me by @Masterwork in a previous thread. 
*edit:* Yes, to answer your question... they say it can be used to spray both sides at once, and then they suggest using their sandpaper spatulas to carry them, but I will likely only ever spray one side at a time- it was hard enough to keep the "little footprints" off the back side as it was. 

Definitely a game changer for me. Can spray the top, then spin it slowly to get the sides, or shadows from high-profiles. It is over-priced, but worth it (I didn't want to bother to try and make one).

If you use this, make sure to use a shorter horse, so you can look down over the piece. I am just going to get some horse brackets and make my own, with a height of something like 26-28".

















I definitely like drying the doors flat. I can apply the paint of a little heavy and not have to worry so much about it. Just levels out so nice. If i had the space, I would seriously consider the drying racks from Door Rack Painter - they are nice, but would always be in the way, and couldn't use them as easily on-site.










I like Erecta Rack drying racks, because most of the time I need a set-up that is portable. Each set (20 towers- 10 pairs) breaks down into a duffel bag, and I can throw it in the back of the vehicle or store it away.


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## Holland

The customer wants us to be done painting on Friday (quick flip!). 
She was fine skipping the sanding step between the primer and the top-coats, and in fact said she liked the way the interior trim looked, and do it exactly the same.

This eliminates some liability on my end, and also allows me to see how this primer functions with a hands-off approach. In other words: wood is prepped (sanded and cleaned), one coat primer and two coats paint.

Smart Prime claims it "encapsulates" tannin bleed. It might be visible in the primer coat, but once dry, will not transfer into previous top-coats. 

*One Coat Primer:* Below are a few doors that showed significant bleed through, particularly on some of the deeper, open grained areas. The yellow staining is clearly visible in some areas, and if this was Bullseye 123, I would be seriously worried right now.



























*W/One Coat Paint ( SW Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd): *





























(*Sprayed second coat of paint this morning. They are done and drying, may not be able to get pictures of them until installed, but think it is safe to say that Smart Prime works really well on oak. It fills in the grain nicely, and levels out pretty smooth).


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## Holland

I would have liked to slow down and enjoy the work (sand between coats, scrutinize details, take my time, etc...). It's not that kind of job.

I post pictures knowing that they are not up the standards of many (most) on here, but hope that some of the information regarding SmartPrime has been helpful.

Thank you to those who have helped and offered suggestions.

Edit: some ‘after’ pics:


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland said:


> @fromthenorthwest,
> 
> Definitely sold on SmartPrime. Agree that it is a lifesaver for me too, not to have to use oil or other solvent-based primers. Thank you for your help previously, very thankful for your suggestions, especially mentioning using an extender, which turned out exactly what was needed to make the trim look good.
> 
> Going to post a few more pics in the next post to show primer and top-coat step...
> 
> I started using the DoorRackPainter - Rotating Spray Rack, as recommended to me by @Masterwork in a previous thread.
> *edit:* Yes, to answer your question... they say it can be used to spray both sides at once, and then they suggest using their sandpaper spatulas to carry them, but I will likely only ever spray one side at a time- it was hard enough to keep the "little footprints" off the back side as it was.
> 
> Definitely a game changer for me. Can spray the top, then spin it slowly to get the sides, or shadows from high-profiles. It is over-priced, but worth it (I didn't want to bother to try and make one).
> 
> If you use this, make sure to use a shorter horse, so you can look down over the piece. I am just going to get some horse brackets and make my own, with a height of something like 26-28".
> View attachment 111657
> 
> 
> View attachment 111658
> 
> 
> I definitely like drying the doors flat. I can apply the paint of a little heavy and not have to worry so much about it. Just levels out so nice. If i had the space, I would seriously consider the drying racks from Door Rack Painter - they are nice, but would always be in the way, and couldn't use them as easily on-site.
> 
> View attachment 111659
> 
> 
> I like Erecta Rack drying racks, because most of the time I need a set-up that is portable. Each set (20 towers- 10 pairs) breaks down into a duffel bag, and I can throw it in the back of the vehicle or store it away.
> 
> View attachment 111660


Glad it's working out! I agree it's good stuff. Sure beats the fumes. And even if there was a slight drop off in performance, which I'm not sure there is, I think my customers and I would both prefer the water-based products.

Thanks for the info on the erecta rack, I haven't seen that one, but that may be a nice fit as space is also at a premium for me. I'm still for now wallowing in my clothes hangers and ladder setup but I think I will drop some money on a better setup here in the not too distant.


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## fromthenorthwest

Holland said:


> The customer wants us to be done painting on Friday (quick flip!).
> She was fine skipping the sanding step between the primer and the top-coats, and in fact said she liked the way the interior trim looked, and do it exactly the same.
> 
> This eliminates some liability on my end, and also allows me to see how this primer functions with a hands-off approach. In other words: wood is prepped (sanded and cleaned), one coat primer and two coats paint.
> 
> Smart Prime claims it "encapsulates" tannin bleed. It might be visible in the primer coat, but once dry, will not transfer into previous top-coats.
> 
> *One Coat Primer:* Below are a few doors that showed significant bleed through, particularly on some of the deeper, open grained areas. The yellow staining is clearly visible in some areas, and if this was Bullseye 123, I would be seriously worried right now.
> View attachment 111664
> 
> 
> View attachment 111663
> 
> 
> View attachment 111666
> 
> 
> *W/One Coat Paint ( SW Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd): *
> 
> View attachment 111667
> 
> 
> View attachment 111668
> 
> 
> View attachment 111669
> 
> 
> 
> (*Sprayed second coat of paint this morning. They are done and drying, may not be able to get pictures of them until installed, but think it is safe to say that Smart Prime works really well on oak. It fills in the grain nicely, and levels out pretty smooth).


Nice looking cabinets.


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## Ramus8T

Holland said:


> I would have liked to slow down and enjoy the work (sand between coats, scrutinize details, take my time, etc...). It's not that kind of job.
> 
> I post pictures knowing that they are not up the standards of many (most) on here, but hope that some of the information regarding SmartPrime has been helpful.
> 
> Thank you to those who have helped and offered suggestions.


I know this is an older thread but I was waiting for some findings on Smart Prime/123Plus.

Thank you Holland for your findings and rack systems.

The only other WB tannin blocking primer I’ve used is General Finishes Stain Blocker but it costs well over $100/gallon.

123Plus seems to be the way to go for water based primers on cabinets.


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