# Primer over Gardz before top coat?



## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

I had all new drywall that was skim coated to a level 5 by the drywall contractor. I applied 1 coat of Gardz instead of a specific drywall primer or PVA, primarily based on positive opinion around here. This was used everywhere including the vaulted ceilings. I then lightly sanded the Gardz and did some touch-ups with spot priming with Gardz.

The fact that Gardz is transparent and shows the various pencil marks from other trades and skim coat colors used by the mudders (they seem to have used a few different color skim coats for touch-ups and finishing), it's a little difficult to tell how much touchup might still be needed and if the top coat will hide everything. 

I'm wondering if I should apply another opaque, sandable primer before before painting, or if applying 2 top coats will be sufficient. Any advice?

I'm likely using a Sherwin Williams satin paint on the walls (like Cashmere low luster, but open to suggestions), and a matte paint on the vaulted ceiling, which hasn't been chosen yet. Not sure yet about the bathrooms and kitchen. They wanted a matte finish everywhere, but also wanted a little durability against dirt stains on walls. Top coat is going to be rolled with a Wooster Micro Plush 5/16 (first time using it), or sprayed and back rolled. 

Any suggestions on if another primer coat is a good idea before top coating, and if so, which might be the best option?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Just buy a decent finish paint and put 2 coats on. I have no idea why you used gardz on new drywall. That's overkill.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Masterwork said:


> Just buy a decent finish paint and put 2 coats on. I have no idea why you used gardz on new drywall. That's overkill.



Not to hear Futtyos tell it. Where's Futtyos when you need a Gardz ad with Gardz instructions. (Always says 2 coats, btw).


I agree with Masterwork. I don't see why 2 topcoats of a qualitypaint would be a problem.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Guardz is the best for new drywall. Cashmere should be fine 2 coats without another primer. Def don’t spot prime with guardz. It will flash horribly. If they are small touch ups don’t even prime them just straight to finish paint.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Guardz is the best for new drywall. Cashmere should be fine 2 coats without another primer. Def don’t spot prime with guardz. It will flash horribly. If they are small touch ups don’t even prime them just straight to finish paint.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, too late on the spot priming with Gardz. There were touch-up nicks that needed some compound as touch-up. I ran some more Gardz over the area already primed with Gardz. 

You're saying that spot prime area will flash even though there's already Gardz there? Hmm...


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

You did right with the guardz on level 5. The hard part with level 5 is all the dust on the walls. Guys can say, dust it, blow it off, but you can't get it all. Just pva or acrylic primer will most always small peel when you put tape on it. So the guardz will do the best job sealing. Any high quality paint will hide in two coats over what you have there, so just do that. The last level 5 job I did was a 4000 sq/ft full house reno, we guardz'd then white primed and let the drywallers come back one more time to fix any areas. Spot primed with guardz then two coats of paint.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Can someone fill me in? Why all this love for gardz? What's so special about it?


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

Masterwork said:


> Can someone fill me in? Why all this love for gardz? What's so special about it?


I was told it would do the best job of soaking through and hardening the skim coat while sealing it. There was a decent build up of soft, scratch-it-by-looking-at-it skim coat, and I wanted to ensure it would be protected and be less susceptible to flashing. This is my first time with it in this application. 

I can say it lives up to the hardening aspect. I'm just less sure about it serving as the final primer for the white top coat because it dries clear. It sounds from the other comments that my fears might be unfounded. I'll need 2 top coats regardless because I don't find that Cashmere covers quite as well as the hype. I'm not 100% on Cashmere being used for the ceiling though. It's a vaulted ceiling that comes all the down to 4 ft at the corners of the house, so it's a very much in your face ceiling.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

If It's a level 5 finish, I would bite the bullet and just roll another coat of a solid white primer like BM Ultra Spec. Or even a flat ceiling paint.
A: It will insure you have no flashing
B: Easier to look for imperfections before finish coats.

If it weren't a level 5 finish I would just continue with top coats.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Can someone fill me in? Why all this love for gardz? What's so special about it?


It completely seals the surface so that any other product you apply on top won't penetrate. It's more designed for torn drywall and wallpaper glues etc. so they won't reactivate. And it works.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I must be missing the point, then. None of that is an issue with a level 5 finish. You could put anything on the wall, and it should look fine.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

It’s just one of those things you have to try and see how well it works. I never believed it and thought it was overkill. We use it all the time now for many purposes. It seals level 5 so good, it rolls on very smooth with a short nap roller. Works great with large walls where you want the topcoat to dry nice and slow. Try it in pre primed mdf. That will make you a believer.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yet one more product everyone raves about on PT that I'm unable to get without driving for 2 hours. Each of the three places here in town that sell paint all carry Zinsser products, but not one of them stocks Gardz. Thankfully all 3 places started carrying Coverstain in the past year for some reason so at least there's that.


Sometimes I feel like I live on a different planet from y'all.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yet one more product everyone raves about on PT that I'm unable to get without driving for 2 hours. Each of the three places here in town that sell paint all carry Zinsser products, but not one of them stocks Gardz. Thankfully all 3 places started carrying Coverstain in the past year for some reason so at least there's that.
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I live on a different planet from y'all.


Dont feel bad I cant get it either. I found it once at a hole in the wall Ace Hardware but they were selling it in a small spray bottle. Who knew gardz came in a spray bottle, weird. Other than that I've never seen a gallon in the wild.

If you haven't committed to Cashmere I'd suggest checking out Emerald Matte I can promise you more durable than the Cashmere Low Luster.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Grayscale, in the op you said a matte on the vaulted ceiling. Any reason for that in particular? 


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yet one more product everyone raves about on PT that I'm unable to get without driving for 2 hours. Each of the three places here in town that sell paint all carry Zinsser products, but not one of them stocks Gardz. Thankfully all 3 places started carrying Coverstain in the past year for some reason so at least there's that.
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I live on a different planet from y'all.


See if your Sherwin can get you Romans Pro 999. RX-35. Its a gardz Knockoff. Cheaper too.

You might even be able to find Draw Tite. Better than gardz, but a little pricey.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodco said:


> See if your Sherwin can get you Romans Pro 999. RX-35. Its a gardz Knockoff. Cheaper too.
> 
> You might even be able to find Draw Tite. Better than gardz, but a little pricey.



Nearest SW would be even further away. I honestly don't even think I've ever seen a SW store much less been in one.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Wildbill7145 said:
> 
> 
> > Yet one more product everyone raves about on PT that I'm unable to get without driving for 2 hours. Each of the three places here in town that sell paint all carry Zinsser products, but not one of them stocks Gardz. Thankfully all 3 places started carrying Coverstain in the past year for some reason so at least there's that.
> ...


If only I could get the company selling me the paint to promise. It's hard to believe that a matte finish of a thicker paint could be more durable than an eggshell finish, although I do feel a bit like Fox Mulder..."I want to believe." 

Does it have a slight shine to it? Is it washable? I would think a matte finish would be more thirsty to pickup dirt. I'm likely rolling, or spraying and back rolling, everything. The walls (and I think the ceiling and doors) are all going Pure White.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Grayscale, in the op you said a matte on the vaulted ceiling. Any reason for that in particular?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, everything in the house is vaulted and comes down to about 4 ft in the corners, so the ceilings are very much in your face. When you are in the bathrooms, it'll obviously have to have a sheen. The thought was that a ceiling with any kind of sheen in the living room or bedrooms might be too reflective? Not sure actually. This was a big question because on one side the argument for a matte finish to not bounce light makes sense, and on the other side the argument for a slight sheen to protect those areas that will be touched or you accidentally bonk your head might make sense.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yet one more product everyone raves about on PT that I'm unable to get without driving for 2 hours. Each of the three places here in town that sell paint all carry Zinsser products, but not one of them stocks Gardz. Thankfully all 3 places started carrying Coverstain in the past year for some reason so at least there's that.
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like I live on a different planet from y'all.





Rbriggs82 said:


> Dont feel bad I cant get it either. I found it once at a hole in the wall Ace Hardware but they were selling it in a small spray bottle. Who knew gardz came in a spray bottle, weird. Other than that I've never seen a gallon in the wild.
> 
> If you haven't committed to Cashmere I'd suggest checking out Emerald Matte I can promise you more durable than the Cashmere Low Luster.


You can buy the 5 gallon or four 1-gallon on Home Depot's site and have it delivered.

You could also ask any of those three stores that carry Zinsser products to put some Gardz on their next order for you.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

The Gardz data sheet says you can use a garden weed sprayer to apply it


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

Masterwork said:


> The Gardz data sheet says you can use a garden weed sprayer to apply it


Of course, you have to use the Graco Fine Finish tip to garden weed sprayer adapter.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Nearest SW would be even further away. I honestly don't even think I've ever seen a SW store much less been in one.



Get your BM dealer to order some V027 sealer


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

grayscale said:


> Masterwork said:
> 
> 
> > The Gardz data sheet says you can use a garden weed sprayer to apply it
> ...


I'm not joking. Go check out the TDS lol. I might start spraying all my walls with a garden sprayer.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Thank you!*



jr.sr. painting said:


> It’s just one of those things you have to try and see how well it works. I never believed it and thought it was overkill. We use it all the time now for many purposes. It seals level 5 so good, it rolls on very smooth with a short nap roller. Works great with large walls where you want the topcoat to dry nice and slow. Try it in pre primed mdf. That will make you a believer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you for saying very succinctly here what I have been saying for several years here at PT!

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Durable ceiling paint?*



grayscale said:


> Well, everything in the house is vaulted and comes down to about 4 ft in the corners, so the ceilings are very much in your face. When you are in the bathrooms, it'll obviously have to have a sheen. The thought was that a ceiling with any kind of sheen in the living room or bedrooms might be too reflective? Not sure actually. This was a big question because on one side the argument for a matte finish to not bounce light makes sense, and on the other side the argument for a slight sheen to protect those areas that will be touched or you accidentally bonk your head might make sense.


grayscale, you might consider using Behr Premium Plus Ultra ceiling paint on your ceiling. It does have more sheen than some ceiling paints, but some of your ceilings appear close to being touchable by humans. 

My experience on a 500 sq ft family room using Behr. The ceiling appeared to be a cheap contractor grade paint, so I Gardz'd it, then rolled 2 coats of Behr PPU Ceiling Paint. I cleaned up, then went right back to where I started rolling the ceiling paint to cut in crown molding (pre-primed with a cheap primer, so I put 2 coats of Gardz on that before rolling ceiling) with a fire engine red semi-gloss. I got about 5 feet brushed, then noticed I had spattered the red paint on the ceiling which had been 2nd coated only about an hour earlier. I figured I better wipe off as much red paint with a wet paper towel before touching up. I wiped until I could no longer see any red paint whatsoever. If that isn't stain resistance, I don't know what is.

Another good thing about Behr PPU Ceiling paint is that it rolls over itself very well. I have rolled BM 508 over a Gardz'd ceiling and it went on like butter on toast, but the 2nd coat went over like thin paint over a dry sponge...as if I hadn't applied any sealer to a very thirsty surface and having all the water get sucked up before I could spread the paint out evenly.

You might also conside Behr Scuff Defense Matte finish for the walls. As far as the satin walls you are doing, I am told that the Behr Scuff Defense is going to be available in all sheens soon. I have used the Scuff Defense Matte on a couple of jobs now and like it.

As far as pointing up over just a Gardz'd finish, I agree with others here that while Gardz will seal down a dusty surface, you need a white surface with a strong hand held light to find all the dings to mark and then go back to spackle over and fix. The light against the white surface is basically a must if you want to find all the imperfections.

I have never used the Draw-Tite that Woodco mentioned, but they do make a Draw-Tite that is white. One good coat of White Draw-Tite might solve you problems.

futtyos


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

grayscale said:


> If only I could get the company selling me the paint to promise. It's hard to believe that a matte finish of a thicker paint could be more durable than an eggshell finish, although I do feel a bit like Fox Mulder..."I want to believe."
> 
> Does it have a slight shine to it? Is it washable? I would think a matte finish would be more thirsty to pickup dirt. I'm likely rolling, or spraying and back rolling, everything. The walls (and I think the ceiling and doors) are all going Pure White.


If I saw Emerald Matte on the wall I'd think it was an eggshell finish so yes it has a healthy amount of sheen. Cashmere low luster has more shine than satin imo. 

The Emerald Matte is much more durable than than cashmere low luster. For example, I have a small narrow hall that goes between my two story foyer and kitchen area. This hall takes a beating between my young children and dog. I painted it with Emerald Matte and not even a week later one of my kids made a two foot long black scuff mark. I look a micro fiber rag and water and was able to scrub it off without leaving a mark.

Ever use Emerald and try washing it off your hands? That stuff is hard as hell to get off, sometimes I spray my hands with krud kutter to remove it all. Cashmere will wash off with a slightly damp rag and zero effort.

Above the thermostat from the door jam to the corner is where I washed off the scuff mark.









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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Spraying Gardz with garden sprayer*



Masterwork said:


> I'm not joking. Go check out the TDS lol. I might start spraying all my walls with a garden sprayer.


If you do so, please take video of this and post it here on PT!

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*spraying Gardz*



grayscale said:


> Of course, you have to use the Graco Fine Finish tip to garden weed sprayer adapter.


Perhaps Woodco will chime in on spraying Gardz. I have never sprayed Gardz. I would be reluctant to do so unless I had done some testing first.

My experience with rolling Gardz is that you just have to get used to whatever nap roller will work on any particular surface. I remember rolling Gardz on a popcorn ceiling that had been skim coated flat. I started out with a 3/8 nap roller. The skim coat was sucking it up like nobody's business. I scrounged around and the homeowner had a 3/4 or better nap roller. I switched to that and it worked very well. On the OP walls and ceilings I would use a 1/2" - 9/16".

Gardz seems to need working into a porous surface. It is very thin and will keep soaking in while you are backrolling it.

I would imagine that one would need an organic vapor mask if one were to spray Gardz!

futtyos


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I think with all that natural light you will def want to go with a flat on the ceiling. I dont think it will get beat up. Unless those people live like animals. If they are willing to pay for level 5 they probably appreciate a quality job and perfect finish. I think flat is really the only way to go on those ceilings.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I think with all that natural light you will def want to go with a flat on the ceiling. I dont think it will get beat up. Unless those people live like animals. If they are willing to pay for level 5 they probably appreciate a quality job and perfect finish. I think flat is really the only way to go on those ceilings.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Although, alot of times people go with a stage 5 on ceiling so they Can go with a sheen..


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Perhaps Woodco will chime in on spraying Gardz. I have never sprayed Gardz. I would be reluctant to do so unless I had done some testing first.
> 
> My experience with rolling Gardz is that you just have to get used to whatever nap roller will work on any particular surface. I remember rolling Gardz on a popcorn ceiling that had been skim coated flat. I started out with a 3/8 nap roller. The skim coat was sucking it up like nobody's business. I scrounged around and the homeowner had a 3/4 or better nap roller. I switched to that and it worked very well. On the OP walls and ceilings I would use a 1/2" - 9/16".
> 
> ...


Spraying gardz is NASTY. Dont do it. and if you do, you need to backroll it, or it will flash everything.... My BM finally got me a gallon of Corotech v027 in and it is a MUCH friendlier product. Its not as watery, and doesnt stink at all. It goes on nice and smooth. I've been using it under wallpaper my last few jobs. I dont think its quite as bulletproof as Gardz though, at least not right away, as i hung on it within a few hours and its still a little soft, but I dont think Im going back.

Also, OP, know that gardz will NOT leave a stipple. You could roll it on damn near dripping with a 3/4" roller and it will ALL suck into the mud. Not saying you should do that, but you could. Thats why I only do one coat of it. Put it on really good, and let it soak in and harden the wall up.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

futtyos said:


> grayscale, you might consider using Behr Premium Plus Ultra ceiling paint on your ceiling. It does have more sheen than some ceiling paints, but some of your ceilings appear close to being touchable by humans.
> 
> My experience on a 500 sq ft family room using Behr. The ceiling appeared to be a cheap contractor grade paint, so I Gardz'd it, then rolled 2 coats of Behr PPU Ceiling Paint. I cleaned up, then went right back to where I started rolling the ceiling paint to cut in crown molding (pre-primed with a cheap primer, so I put 2 coats of Gardz on that before rolling ceiling) with a fire engine red semi-gloss. I got about 5 feet brushed, then noticed I had spattered the red paint on the ceiling which had been 2nd coated only about an hour earlier. I figured I better wipe off as much red paint with a wet paper towel before touching up. I wiped until I could no longer see any red paint whatsoever. If that isn't stain resistance, I don't know what is.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips. I've been interested in using Behr PPU or Marquee on the walls, but professional painters hate on it so much that I haven't yet. I'm not sure if it's because it's available to everyone at Home Depot, or because Consumer Reports raves about it and homeowners ask about it so much. Maybe both?

I've never heard of Scuff Defense. It sounds like you're recommending scuff defense over Marquee on walls, and PPU matte on ceiling? I suppose you could even just use one of those two on both and have no cut-ins?

For a 2nd primer coat, I probably won't go with another Gardz-esque primer because it would seem something that's higher build and maybe sandable would be more helpful for any of the imperfections left by the drywall skim coat guys.


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## grayscale (May 9, 2018)

Rbriggs82 said:


> If I saw Emerald Matte on the wall I'd think it was an eggshell finish so yes it has a healthy amount of sheen. Cashmere low luster has more shine than satin imo.
> 
> The Emerald Matte is much more durable than than cashmere low luster. For example, I have a small narrow hall that goes between my two story foyer and kitchen area. This hall takes a beating between my young children and dog. I painted it with Emerald Matte and not even a week later one of my kids made a two foot long black scuff mark. I look a micro fiber rag and water and was able to scrub it off without leaving a mark.
> 
> ...


That's good info. I assumed Emerald was just a thicker, if not a little more difficult to work with, version of Cashmere. A durable matte is always a good find.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Links for recommendations*



grayscale said:


> Thanks for the tips. I've been interested in using Behr PPU or Marquee on the walls, but professional painters hate on it so much that I haven't yet. I'm not sure if it's because it's available to everyone at Home Depot, or because Consumer Reports raves about it and homeowners ask about it so much. Maybe both?
> 
> I've never heard of Scuff Defense. It sounds like you're recommending scuff defense over Marquee on walls, and PPU matte on ceiling? I suppose you could even just use one of those two on both and have no cut-ins?
> 
> For a 2nd primer coat, I probably won't go with another Gardz-esque primer because it would seem something that's higher build and maybe sandable would be more helpful for any of the imperfections left by the drywall skim coat guys.


Behr Premium Plus ULTRA Ceiling Paint is very white and 2-coats well over a properly sealed surface. It does have a bit of a sheen compared to BM 508, but I found it much more friendly to apply, especially the 2nd coat. I am talking about the Premium Plus ULTRA Ceiling Paint (PPU), NOT the Premium Plus Ceiling Paint (PP), which I don't recommend. Here is a link for the PPU Ceiling Paint:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-UL...rior-Paint-and-Primer-in-One-555801/202601366

Here is a link to the Behr Scuff Defense Matte finish:

https://www.behr.com/consumer/produ.../behr-ultra-interior/behr-ultra-scuff-defense

I have used this on a couple of jobs and it seems to cut, roll and cover well. I don't know how it performs over the long haul. I do remember that after the last job was done, I could not remember any smell or odor whatsoever from this paint.

Scuff Defense now comes in the eggshell, satin and possibly semi-gloss as well.

It is your call if you want to paint ceilings and walls with same paint.

futtyos


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

;1696569 said:


> Spraying gardz is NASTY. Dont do it. and if you do, you need to backroll it, or it will flash everything.... *My BM finally got me a gallon of Corotech v027 in and it is a MUCH friendlier product. Its not as watery, and doesnt stink at all.* It goes on nice and smooth. I've been using it under wallpaper my last few jobs. I dont think its quite as bulletproof as Gardz though, at least not right away, as i hung on it within a few hours and its still a little soft, but I dont think Im going back.
> 
> Also, OP, know that gardz will NOT leave a stipple. You could roll it on damn near dripping with a 3/4" roller and it will ALL suck into the mud. Not saying you should do that, but you could. Thats why I only do one coat of it. Put it on really good, and let it soak in and harden the wall up.


OK, this is the reason I joined this forum.
Woodco is 100% correct.
Gardz stinks. LITERALLY stinks to the high heaven. 
Gardz has a very strong stinky smell of amonia, bad cheese and old unwashed socks. Seriously.

As good as it is in sealing the drywall, it stinks for hours and hours and even after 24 hours with open windows.
Might be OK to use in new construction, but in occupied homes it's a stinking disaster.
Oil Cover Stain is more friendly than stinky Gardz.

Use what coco suggested:


cocomonkeynuts said:


> Get your BM dealer to order some V027 sealer


Interior/Exterior no stinky smell solid body sealer.
Absolute winner.

Gardz is an old chemical stinking technology. 
Gardz is not an original formula. Gardz is a knock Off of another original product, the Draw-Tite.

BM V027 sealer, doesn't stink and seals as well or better (interior/exterior) than stinking Gardz.

I'm shocked that some painters still push and promote Gardz when much better and much more sophisticated chemical technology exists.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Ppu*



IKnowNothing said:


> OK, this is the reason I joined this forum.
> Woodco is 100% correct.
> Gardz stinks. LITERALLY stinks to the high heaven.
> Gardz has a very strong stinky smell of amonia, bad cheese and old unwashed socks. Seriously.
> ...


The PPU in the title above means Parallel Painters Universe. I say that because it appears to me that I live in a universe parallel and somewhat different than the ones some here appear to inhabit, at least to my way of viewing things.

Yes, Gardz does smell, but my experience with it is that the odor goes away within an hour or so. Cover Stain's odor, on the other hand, seems to linger a lot longer and is much worse for me to handle. I used it last March and will try to stay away from it in the future!

Gardz may be a knock off of Draw-Tite, but from my experience it does the job most of the time.

That being said, I will have to keep BM V027 in mind for upcoming sealing jobs.

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> The PPU in the title above means Parallel Painters Universe. I say that because it appears to me that I live in a universe parallel and somewhat different than the ones some here appear to inhabit, at least to my way of viewing things.
> 
> Yes, Gardz does smell, but my experience with it is that the odor goes away within an hour or so. Cover Stain's odor, on the other hand, seems to linger a lot longer and is much worse for me to handle. I used it last March and will try to stay away from it in the future!
> 
> ...





I know some guys who spray lacquer in their shop all day without respirators then complain when I give them a mineral spirits based product.


maybe its similar to these guys who have sprayed decades of lacquer and those particular olfactory receptors are simply burned out.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

futtyos said:


> The PPU in the title above means Parallel Painters Universe. I say that because it appears to me that I live in a universe parallel and somewhat different than the ones some here appear to inhabit, at least to my way of viewing things.
> 
> Yes, Gardz does smell, but my experience with it is that the odor goes away within an hour or so. Cover Stain's odor, on the other hand, seems to linger a lot longer and is much worse for me to handle. I used it last March and will try to stay away from it in the future!
> *
> ...


What do you mean by that?
I understood from your posts that Gardz is bulletproof.
Care to elaborate when and how Gardz fails.

Thanks.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

IKnowNothing said:


> What do you mean by that?
> I understood from your posts that Gardz is bulletproof.
> Care to elaborate when and how Gardz fails.
> 
> Thanks.


Heres the deal... Gardz came form Draw tite, but its not as good. I cant get draw tite, so Im stuck with gardz. My BM store happened to have 3 gallons of Draw Tite No Run on sale once, and I bought all three gallons. It was GREAT. BUT, I cant even order any more from anywhere. 

Anyway... My Bm store comped me a gallon of V027 which is a concrete sealer, but does the same thing as Gardz, but doesnt stink and isnt as watery, and is also WAY cheaper. . I did some side by side tests the last few days, and unfortunately V027 takes a lot longer to harden up than Gardz. It might get just as hard in a day though, IDK for sure. I hang wallpaper, so i need to float walls, then come back, sand then Gardz, then hang the wallpaper a couple hours later. im supposed to wait three hours, buts its solid after one hour. V027 definitely doesnt get hard as fast, (giggity) but I havent tested it a day later, cuz I dont have the time usually. Draw tite DID get hard really quick, so 
i would gladly pay the extra $ for it if i could.

So, im not saying 027 isnt as good, but definitely takes longer to cure. Its a lot nicer to work with than Gardz though... and a hell of a lot cheaper.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

am i a benny moore shill? i think if youre doing anything high end that the only store id be dealing with is bm


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Woodco said:


> Heres the deal... Gardz came form Draw tite, but its not as good. I cant get draw tite, so Im stuck with gardz. My BM store happened to have 3 gallons of Draw Tite No Run on sale once, and I bought all three gallons. It was GREAT. BUT, I cant even order any more from anywhere.
> 
> Anyway... My Bm store comped me a gallon of V027 which is a concrete sealer, but does the same thing as Gardz, but doesnt stink and isnt as watery, and is also WAY cheaper. . I did some side by side tests the last few days, and unfortunately V027 takes a lot longer to harden up than Gardz. It might get just as hard in a day though, IDK for sure. I hang wallpaper, so i need to float walls, then come back, sand then Gardz, then hang the wallpaper a couple hours later. im supposed to wait three hours, buts its solid after one hour. *V027 definitely doesnt get hard as fast, (giggity)* but I havent tested it a day later, cuz I dont have the time usually. Draw tite DID get hard really quick, so
> i would gladly pay the extra $ for it if i could.
> ...


Perhaps next time consider dropping couple of Viagra pills in it. lol
But what do I know. I don't hang wallpaper.

I don't understand marketing strategy of Draw Tite company.
Maybe coco can get it for you... _he knows people_.

Yes, overnight BM/Corotech Clear Acrylic Sealer V027 dries hard as a rock. Too bad dries longer than Gardz for your needs, tho I never did side by side testing.
After removing cove base I applied V027 over torn drywall and 3 hours later was dry and ready for skim coat of DYNAMIC Dyna Patch. 
Two hours later I put coat of V027 over Dyna Patch.
I love using DynaPatch when fast drying is needed, tho is hard to sand, so careful smooth application is crucial. 
DynaPatch has also Light version. Not as strong but easier to sand of course. Fast drying as well. 

What do you use to float your walls. Regular drywall mud?, or do you have some super duper compound for that purpose.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Funny, I'm pretty sure I've seen the V027 on the shelf at my BM store and No one could tell me much about it, so always just stuck with the Gardz. Hope it's still there cause I'd love to try it. I mostly use it for sealing in the left over wallpaper paste after removing wallpaper and before painting. It definitely stinks, but not as bad as coverstain.(imo)
All the same, the less VOC's the better. Thanks for the tip on these products fella's.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

IKnowNothing said:


> Perhaps next time consider dropping couple of Viagra pills in it. lol
> But what do I know. I don't hang wallpaper.
> 
> I don't understand marketing strategy of Draw Tite company.
> ...


I use lightweight plus 3. I want it as easy to sand as possible. The gardz will harden it up.

Supposedly draw tite is working on distribution with Sherwin,


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Heres the deal... Gardz came form Draw tite, but its not as good. I cant get draw tite, so Im stuck with gardz. My BM store happened to have 3 gallons of Draw Tite No Run on sale once, and I bought all three gallons. It was GREAT. BUT, I cant even order any more from anywhere.
> 
> Anyway... My Bm store comped me a gallon of V027 which is a concrete sealer, but does the same thing as Gardz, but doesnt stink and isnt as watery, and is also WAY cheaper. . I did some side by side tests the last few days, and unfortunately V027 takes a lot longer to harden up than Gardz. It might get just as hard in a day though, IDK for sure. I hang wallpaper, so i need to float walls, then come back, sand then Gardz, then hang the wallpaper a couple hours later. im supposed to wait three hours, buts its solid after one hour. V027 definitely doesnt get hard as fast, (giggity) but I havent tested it a day later, cuz I dont have the time usually. Draw tite DID get hard really quick, so
> i would gladly pay the extra $ for it if i could.
> ...


Ever consider trying a product like PC petrifier? Its a urethane base and NO issues hardening up. Lots of people using it on paper beads, and i have used it on masonry a few times.

https://www.westernloghomesupply.com/pc-petrifier-rotted-wood-epoxy-4.html


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Ever consider trying a product like PC petrifier? Its a urethane base and NO issues hardening up. Lots of people using it on paper beads, and i have used it on masonry a few times.



coco, I'm interested to know if you think that the PC-Petrifier Rotted Wood Hardener would outperform the Corotech® Clear Acrylic Sealer V027
for applications over drywall (including drywall mud of course, like in case of what Woodco is doing).

Considering that the PC-Petrifier costs $230 for 5 gallon (+shipping I guess). 
That might end up being $50-$60/per gallon, almost 3 times what gallon of V027 cost.
Since V027 is rated interior/exterior I wonder if it also can be used to harden rotting wood.
I'm going to experiment with that idea. Since it's good to use on masonry might work on wood too.
Tho on rotted wood I prefer acetone based Minwax 41700 High Performance Wood Hardener instead of water based wood hardeners.

I'm very happy how the V027 primed/sealed bare MDF before painting.
Also same as Gardz, V027 extends open time for brush work or rolling walls.
Great to use to prime/seal walls with lot's of light hitting them to assure uniformity in paint sheen. 

*V027 General description:* waterborne, universal (interior and exterior use), transparent, acrylic priming agent. 
Suitable for use as a primer/sealer or as a protective clear coating over low gloss acrylic coatings (paint layers or plasters) and decorative effects.

Clear Acrylic Sealer V027 provides excellent reinforcement and penetrating features when used on gypsum surfaces or weak, chalky mineral plasters.

Note: for the best result, use it in each case on gypsum substrates! 
As a sealer on masonry it reduces water penetration helping to prevent erosion, efflorescence, chalking, and spalling without changing the natural appearance.

Primer can be used in form of lacquer on vertical wooden substrates in interiors. 
It's excellent solution for protection of wall decorative effect (interior and exterior application). 
Product can be tinted to achieve a special kind of glaze.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

IKnowNothing said:


> coco, I'm interested to know if you think that the PC-Petrifier Rotted Wood Hardener would outperform the Corotech® Clear Acrylic Sealer V027
> for applications over drywall (including drywall mud of course, like in case of what Woodco is doing).
> 
> Considering that the PC-Petrifier costs $230 for 5 gallon (+shipping I guess).
> ...



Ive never used it on drywall or over paper but it is water based, low order and it seriously gets hard as a rock. Its a very thin product.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Funny, I'm pretty sure I've seen the V027 on the shelf at my BM store and No one could tell me much about it, so always just stuck with the Gardz. Hope it's still there cause I'd love to try it. I mostly use it for sealing in the left over wallpaper paste after removing wallpaper and before painting. *It definitely stinks, but not as bad as coverstain.(imo)*
> All the same, the less VOC's the better. Thanks for the tip on these products fella's.


Well, OK, lol, maybe I exaggerated a bit compering to the smell of oil based Coverstain.
I guess what really turns me off with Gardz is the bad cheese/dirthy socks stink. It makes my almost puke. 
I can handle smell of Coverstain much better for some strange reason, _lol_.

I hope you will like it. In my opinion it's quite underrated product. 
And same as at your BM store, I had to send link to my store for the manager to get familiar with it.

On couple of projects where I had 'important' walls with lot's of light hitting them, I decided not to take a chance with white primer/sealer (BM Fresh Start, _as good as it is_), I just sealed them with V027, them applied two coats of eggshell on top of it. 
Benefits:
Long open time to do brush work and rolling, and perfect sheen uniformity.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Just to add to my experiences with BM V027 sealer, on one project where I was concerned about smoothness of drywall finish after several repairs were done to it, I decided to apply as a first coat, white primer on it, so I can see better all the drywall imperfections and fix them.
And to assure paint sheen uniformity (and to extend open time since it was dry hot summer day _and BM paints dry so fast_) I applied coat of V027 on top of it before top coating. 
I know, it was extra coat to roll, but it was very well worth it in that case.

OK, I better stop raving about V027 so I don't become like *futtyos*, lol
It's a friendly jab futtyos, _please don't take offense._ :smile:


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Ever consider trying a product like PC petrifier? Its a urethane base and NO issues hardening up. Lots of people using it on paper beads, and i have used it on masonry a few times.
> 
> https://www.westernloghomesupply.com/pc-petrifier-rotted-wood-epoxy-4.html


No. I see no reason to use a product like that under wallpaper. In fact early versions of acrylic sealers had adhesion issues with paste because they were too hard. 

I dont need the walls to be rock hard. i just want them to get hard faster

an hour or two after Gardz, i can write on the wall with a mechanical pencil. Two hours after v027, the pencil still digs in a little. Also, rolling paste on v027 two hours later, i can see the wall start to change color, like is not quite sealed. Basically, Im gonna save the v027 for instances where i wont be hanging the same day, but usually, I come in the house about 9:00, prime ASAP, set up my table and everything, then try to start start hanging by 11:00. Im SUPPOSED to wait three hours for Gardz, but I dont think its necessary. 

I get the same softness problem with sheildz, and it says you can hang one hour later.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

GARDZ provides an excellent base coat to ensure sheen hold out for subsequent top coats from satins to glosses. However, GARDZ is intended as a specialty sealer for other purposes i.e. wallcovering sizing , damaged drywall sealer, and sealing problemed porous interior substrates. I would rather use an opaque drywall specific primer. It helps with locating imperfections and provides a consistent hue for subsequent top coats.

I'm ready to get banned futtyos.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> *Ever consider trying a product like PC petrifier? *Its a urethane base and NO issues hardening up. Lots of people using it on paper beads, and i have used it on masonry a few times.





IKnowNothing said:


> Since V027 is rated interior/exterior I wonder if it also can be used to harden rotting wood.
> I'm going to experiment with that idea. Since it's good to use on masonry might work on wood too.
> *Tho on rotted wood I prefer acetone based Minwax 41700 High Performance Wood Hardener* instead of water based wood hardeners.


Here is a quote from comments on Amazon about Minwax 41700 High Performance Wood Hardener:

"This is just acetone with some plasticizer mixed in. I'm pretty sure I could make an equivalent product by dissolving styrofoam in some acetone."

I wonder if this is the case. Minwax 41700 works great but it's quite expensive.
Any chemists here that can chime in on it..?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

IKnowNothing said:


> Here is a quote from comments on Amazon about Minwax 41700 High Performance Wood Hardener:
> 
> "This is just acetone with some plasticizer mixed in. I'm pretty sure I could make an equivalent product by dissolving styrofoam in some acetone."
> 
> ...



I bring a similar recipe with me camping, substitute gasoline :wink:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

​


cocomonkeynuts said:


> I bring a similar recipe with me camping, substitute gasoline :wink:


Just make sure to wait awhile before roasting yer Hotdog..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> GARDZ provides an excellent base coat to ensure sheen hold out for subsequent top coats from satins to glosses. However, GARDZ is intended as a specialty sealer for other purposes i.e. wallcovering sizing , damaged drywall sealer, and sealing problemed porous interior substrates. I would rather use an opaque drywall specific primer. It helps with locating imperfections and provides a consistent hue for subsequent top coats.
> 
> I'm ready to get banned futtyos.


I noticed that the draw tight has an opaque finish. I'd be interested in getting my hands on some of that..Kill 2 birds with.. sorry is that politically incorrect.?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I noticed that the draw tight has an opaque finish. I'd be interested in getting my hands on some of that..Kill 2 birds with.. sorry is that politically incorrect.?


Draw tite has a white version, but the regular stuff and the no run is clear.


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

I know this is an old thread but I have a Gardz question so I thought I would reignite this one.
Just rolled 2000 SQ ft Gardz, all new drywall. In many areas with joint compound the Gardz appears to have soaked into the compound to the point I see no sheen like I do elsewhere. Do I roll a second Gardz coat or is 1 enough?
The dried Gardz does have somewhat of a texture (walls vac'd and dusted) so do I skim over it with a fine screen?
TIA


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

just paint one wall and see what it does. It shouldnt need a second coat, but I sprayed a house without backrolling it, and the it flashed bigtime. had to roll another coat on almost everything.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Knobbe said:


> I know this is an old thread but I have a Gardz question so I thought I would reignite this one.
> Just rolled 2000 SQ ft Gardz, all new drywall. In many areas with joint compound the Gardz appears to have soaked into the compound to the point I see no sheen like I do elsewhere. Do I roll a second Gardz coat or is 1 enough?
> The dried Gardz does have somewhat of a texture (walls vac'd and dusted) so do I skim over it with a fine screen?
> TIA


Also depends what top coat your using.. 2 top coats of a quality paint should be fine..


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Also depends what top coat your using.. 2 top coats of a quality paint should be fine..


1 fresh coat primer, 2 regal select.
My gut says I want a sheen everywhere unless someone has a different experience.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Knobbe said:


> 1 fresh coat primer, 2 regal select.
> My gut says I want a sheen everywhere unless someone has a different experience.


I think you would be fine with that system. Obviously if you want to be 100%, roll a quick 2nd coat gardz or other cheap white primer, atleast on dry area's. Or roll the dice and do a third coat of paint if necessary..but regal is a really good self sealing paint.


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I think you would be fine with that system. Obviously if you want to be 100%, roll a quick 2nd coat gardz or other cheap white primer, atleast on dry area's. Or roll the dice and do a third coat of paint if necessary..but regal is a really good self sealing paint.


It worked out great. Thanks


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