# who is responsible?



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i will be starting an old house, interior.

i stopped in to check up on the progress,,,,there is an electrician, a floor guy, cabinet installers, a tile guy, and a plumber on site.

its a dusty mess and none of them are following rrp.

this house is about 100 yrs old, and has many layers of paint.

plaster is being removed in many areas, as is woodwork.

by working on this project, have i accepted all responsibility for their lead dust?

there is a child in the house.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Did you present them with the RRP pamphlet and have them sign it? Were there any discussions at all about lead? If not I personally would probably walk away.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

yes, i presented rrp to him, and have copy of signed pamphlet.

that really made everyone elses mess my problem.

they have not contained ANY dust, not even tried to contain it.

upon arrival at the job it was a dusty disaster, and i havnt lifted a finger yet.

isnt there an old saying that says, "in for a penny, in for a pound?"


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

these are all local tradesmen that have been in business a long time.

i know them all.

i could care less if they follow rrp.

homeowners dont want to pay thousands more for a project.

i chuckled when i saw that they are thumbing their noses at rrp,,,,,,,,but now is the tricky part>>>>>now that the painter is there (me) am i legally bound to clean up their mess?

under the strictest interperetation of the law i would say yes.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

high fibre said:


> these are all local tradesmen that have been in business a long time.
> 
> i know them all.
> 
> ...


No one will know.... unless YOU tell them. There is a strong case for "pluasable deniability" IF you get busted.

Everything we said months ago.... is hear....no one has been busted... NOT one
..................lol


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

rcp, dean, what are your thoughts?


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

high fibre said:


> rcp, dean, what are your thoughts?


A dangerous situation.

Are you going to be actually disturbing a painted surface? Almost sounds like the others did all the disturbing.

If you will be disturbing, you will end up being responsible for clean-up/verification and white glove test. Not sure what your contract says.

I would really talk to the homeowner about the child getting a blood test. Odds are, the child is elevated and damaged. 

I personally wouldn't do any work until I get some of these issues settled. I personally wouldn't do the work at all ... if there is a way to get out of it.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

Looked up some odds of lead based paint.

Odds are 90%+ that there is lead based paint on a 1910 house.

Is the RRP state run or EPA run?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Interesting dilemma. 

It appears that the only way to pursue this job, and absolve yourself of any responsibility for the dust, is to blow the whistle.

You might have to walk away from this one if you want to keep your friends. I'd hate to read that you were the first $38,000 example.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree with Dean. Is the HO acting as the the GC or is there a GC with a permit filed? It sounds like you may be the only one "on record" working on the house.
If there is a child in the house and has been exposed to Lead Dust already I would be very concerned. What was the HO's reaction to the RRP Rule, do they really understand? 
This seems like it could be a great opportunity to educate the HO and the other trades, assuming they are ignorant/unaware of the rule.
If you are the Certified Renovator on record, you are responsible.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I would call a Pow Wow with the HO,explain your concerns and,like I said earlier, walk away!!!! I don't know what your work or cash flow is like but the money you make on this 1 could be far out wayed by the ensuing heart ache & head ache.I can't believe that after you talked with them about the dangers of lead paint they would let this work be carried out in this manor????????


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

This is a really good question, I'm sure all of us at one time or another will run into this situation. Not everybody will be able to walk away from these type of jobs. many reason other then just being slow. So I hope the epa's advice is something other then just walking away or blow the whistle.

Pat


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> This is a really good question, I'm sure all of us at one time or another will run into this situation. Not everybody will be able to walk away from these type of jobs. many reason other then just being slow. So I hope the epa's advice is something other then just walking away or blow the whistle.
> 
> Pat


I don't think I would look to the EPA for my advise on this situation,nor would I blow the whistle. I would just wash my hands of this mess,no pun intended. You need to protect yourself!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Woody said:


> No one will know.... unless YOU tell them. There is a strong case for "pluasable deniability" IF you get busted.
> 
> Everything we said months ago.... is hear....no one has been busted... NOT one
> ..................lol


The EPA has stated they are putting efforts into education now as opposed to enforcement. If the "enforcement" campaign is as good as the "education" campaign, I don't think we will need to worry!:whistling2:



PatsPainting said:


> This is a really good question, I'm sure all of us at one time or another will run into this situation. Not everybody will be able to walk away from these type of jobs. many reason other then just being slow. So I hope the epa's advice is something other then just walking away or blow the whistle.
> 
> Pat


Absolutely, I think we need to be talking about these scenarios. Like it or not, I think we are all responsible for raising the awareness of the rule.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> I don't think I would look to the EPA for my advise on this situation,nor would I blow the whistle. I would just wash my hands of this mess,no opun intended. You need to protect yourself!



I hear ya and makes total sense. If you do this your are 100% protected. But lets just pretend that this option is not available to you for what ever reasons. How can you do this job and still protect your self? I would think the following would work:

1. Document everything prior to starting. take a million photos, a few videos.

2. Get the owner to sign something that this was the condition prior to your start.

3. Clean up, could take a day or several, just depends on the size of the mess. 

4. Document all over again of the condition prior to you starting any prep work.

5. Follow all the Rules under the new RRP rule 

I would think this would work if your the last guy in there, If there are other trades still working then I would not know what to do in this situation. I guess you would just have to document what your doing and what the other guys are doing. If this was brought up in court one day I would imagine you would still be safe. At least I would hope so.

Pat


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

what happened to calling the epa up and telling on contractors that aren't following the rrp guidlines? Since they are your friends you don't want to? Sounds like expensive friends.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is a tough one John. I think I would walk on it if possible. Too much of a chance that if something happens down the road where the child ends up showing lead that the paper trail leads to you. I would insist the HO hire someone (you or who ever) to clean the existing mess to RRP standards before you start.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> what happened to calling the epa up and telling on contractors that aren't following the rrp guidlines? Since they are your friends you don't want to? Sounds like expensive friends.


Exactly what I was thinking. They must have new vans with no handicap plates


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This situation, John is facing, demonstrates the criticality of communication and cooperation between trades. No longer will it be prudent for homeowners and GC's to call a painting contractor, on a whim, without consulting with one before a project begins.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> what happened to calling the epa up and telling on contractors that aren't following the rrp guidlines? Since they are your friends you don't want to? Sounds like expensive friends.


 
if i dont like someone and they are jamming me, id screw em in a second. thats life.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

Turning some lemon into lemonade ...

I've made some good money being an expensive janitor. I've cleaned up after some non-certified contractors, when the homeowners suddenly became concern about lead dust. Did the cleanup, visual and verification.

Similar too what a Certified Firm is suppose to do after an emergency job (emergency job not RRP, but you need to get a CF to do cleanup, visual and verification).

I document like crazy that work was done without RRP, before I came in.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

high fibre said:


> if i dont like someone and they are jamming me, id screw em in a second. thats life.


I know a competitor like you. He thinks he the president of the United States.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Just messen with you John.:thumbup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

high fibre said:


> if i dont like someone and they are jamming me, id screw em in a second. thats life.


So, you're initial argument as to why you would whistle-blow on a contractor had to do with your concern for harming possible children in the area. But, from this, it sounds like it really only has to do with benefiting yourself financially. Thats life. Just be honest about it. Like I said, sounds like expensive friends.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Tough situation John. I think I would have to walk on it. If you were like everybody else in the house that is ignoring the law then you could go with the flow wearing blinders to the problem but to be in compliance I think it will all end up being your responsibility. 
Run Forest.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

John,
You have way too much to risk for 1 lousy job. Walk. 

If you do get fined and need some cash give me a shout for a deal on Cadzilla.


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## WAGGZ (Apr 2, 2009)

Woody said:


> No one will know.... unless YOU tell them. There is a strong case for "pluasable deniability" IF you get busted.
> 
> Everything we said months ago.... is hear....no one has been busted... NOT one
> ..................lol



Job in MS shut down the day after I took RRP. MS is a state that has their own deal and EPA lets them handle all the wrist slaps. MDEQ, Mississippi Dept. of Environmental Quality. Told the GC the only way the job could continue was to get a cert. renovator in there. They fired the paint crew, hired a new paint crew and it cost $40k more to get it done right. This was in the last 2 -3 weeks.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> So, you're initial argument as to why you would whistle-blow on a contractor had to do with your concern for harming possible children in the area. But, from this, it sounds like it really only has to do with benefiting yourself financially. Thats life. Just be honest about it. Like I said, sounds like expensive friends.


 
kid, dont believe anything i write, most of its bs.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

high fibre said:


> kid, dont believe anything i write, most of its bs.


sounds fine with me, old man.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> sounds fine with me, old man.


They get grumpy :yes:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> sounds fine with me, old man.


He needs a ninja hug


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I would tell the HO to have the other trades finish...then clean their own mess up.....have the kid checked before you start...
Start fresh and a$$ covered....


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

this is all very good advice, thank you all

this customer is a dr, very picky and very particular.

im amazed that this has all slipped by him as clinical as he is.

the proof is in the pudding>>>> the vast majority of contractors in this area are not following rrp. no effort whatsoever on any of the remodel sites ive seen. not even a plastic sheet across a door on any of the jobs ive walked through, let alone a clean up.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

So is he the "GC of record"?
What are you going to do?
Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Paintuh4Life (May 20, 2009)

high fibre said:


> this is all very good advice, thank you all
> 
> this customer is a dr, very picky and very particular.
> 
> im amazed that this has all slipped by him as clinical as he is.



Hmmm, Picky customer, A Dr., seemingly uninterested in the RRP, sounds like somebody's going to hang. Count me in with the runners.


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