# Weird issue with deep base Resilience.



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I painted 5 metal panel doors on a new house lately. The customer supplied the paint and had picked a dark green color in Resilience. I painted all the doors twice, rolling and back brushing all but one one of them which I rolled only just as an experiment. 

I was a little disappointed that it didn't quite cover in two coats, been a while since I had to do a third coat for coverage with a premium paint. But overall they looked good. 

About half way through the third coat the customer stops me and says the color is wrong. They were trying for a "hunter green" type color, and this color had some blue tones that made it look almost turquoise in certain light. 

They went back to Sherwin and got another gallon of a slightly darker green without the blue tones and I coated them again today. 

I had planned on rolling the final coat on all of them. After doing a couple though, they seemed to be drying weird so I went back to rolling/brushing. That didn't help though. 

When they dried there was a clear variation in color between the horizontal and vertical panels on the doors. The ones I rolled looked like two different colors where I had rolled vertically v/s horizontally, and the brushed ones looked the same. 

















I tried to take pics of a couple of the brushed ones. The color difference isn't as noticeable in the pics as in real life but I think you can see what I'm talking about. This is not sheen flashing, but rather the color actually looks different. Looking at them from a more extreme angle shows a consistent, even sheen. Looking at them from the pictured angle, they clearly looked like two different colors. 

When I figured out what was going on I remembered having the exact same issue many years ago with some dark green A-100. Was the exact same weird color variation between horizontal and vertical. The only way I could fix it the first time was by brushing all the panels vertically. I did the same thing this time and it fixed the issue. 

I don't use Sherwin house paints very often, but I have brushed many a door with deep greens and other colors and the only times I have ever seen this is with SW products. 

Is this a more common phenomenon with deep colors than I realize and I just haven't noticed it much? Is it a coincidence that this has only happened to me with SW paints, or is that perhaps an issue specific to them? 

This didn't happen at all with the original green, even the couple I had third coated already looked nice and solid at all angles. It was only with the second, slightly darker green that it happened. Both colors were ultra deep base.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Can you expound upon what "Drying weird" means a bit more? If it looked kind of splotchy while drying, that's a fairly common thing with cheap paint (ingredients) from what I've seen, and usually resolves for the most part when it dries completely. Keep in mind that deeper bases can take *much* longer to dry than the same paint in a white base and also have a bit more sheen most of the time.

Not sure about the actual end result issue. Is it possible you inadvertently did thicker coats horizontal than vertical or vice versa? All I can think is that a combination between long dry time and lower quality of paint could have caused an issue one way there.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I have had that happen before with certain deep colors where the direction I rolled affected the color. Not very often but I know what your talking about. I ended up brushing the doors like you described. Not sure why but sometimes deep bases act up.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> Can you expound upon what "Drying weird" means a bit more? If it looked kind of splotchy while drying, that's a fairly common thing with cheap paint (ingredients) from what I've seen, and usually resolves for the most part when it dries completely. Keep in mind that deeper bases can take *much* longer to dry than the same paint in a white base and also have a bit more sheen most of the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure about the actual end result issue. Is it possible you inadvertently did thicker coats horizontal than vertical or vice versa? All I can think is that a combination between long dry time and lower quality of paint could have caused an issue one way there.



Well, at first I thought it was just drying slow. The first door I did this morning came into full sun only a few minutes after I finished it but even a couple hours later it was showing the color variation between directions (I rolled that one). 

When I first saw it I hadn't yet remembered the previous issue I had with this, that's why I said it was "weird". I thought maybe is was some problem with how I was rolling them so I went back to brushing. The result was the same though, it looked like different colors on the styles and rails. 

The transition between colors is so stark and so sharply follows the directional changes of the brush strokes, or roller stipple, that it's hard to imagine it's anything else than some kind of light refraction effect making it appear to be different colors......or something idk. 

I suppose it's possible the color variation will go away after full cure (I left one door looking like that because it was basement access and I was ready to call it quits after having to apply an unexpected 4'th coat). The thing is the first time it happened was a call back. It was another new house with the glass doors that only have a metal section around the glass about 4 inches wide. 

A few weeks after the job was done the lady called me and said her doors looked like two different colors. I went down there and sure enough, the horizontal rails around the glass looked like a different color than the styles. This was with a dark green in A-100. I tried re painting a few of them, but it didn't help. That's when I tried doing all the brush strokes in one direction and that worked. 

Can anyone else see the color difference in talking about? The pics aren't great, but it's a stark difference in color right at the transitions.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

jacob33 said:


> I have had that happen before with certain deep colors where the direction I rolled affected the color. Not very often but I know what your talking about. I ended up brushing the doors like you described. Not sure why but sometimes deep bases act up.



Do you remember what paints it's happened with? 

I'm kinda spoiled on Gennex paints lately. Going back to Sherwin for this job with Duration on the siding and Resilience on the doors was.....disappointing. Aura is just so awesome it makes those two look bad. I used to really like Duration ext, but compared to Aura it's lackluster. 

I've only seen it with those couple SW products (A-100 and Resilience), curious if that's a factor or if it's just certain colors in general.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> Well, at first I thought it was just drying slow. The first door I did this morning came into full sun only a few minutes after I finished it but even a couple hours later it was showing the color variation between directions (I rolled that one).
> 
> When I first saw it I hadn't yet remembered the previous issue I had with this, that's why I said it was "weird". I thought maybe is was some problem with how I was rolling them so I went back to brushing. The result was the same though, it looked like different colors on the styles and rails.
> 
> ...


That's what it appears to me to be from the photo, but I believe you when you say that it is due to color difference being based upon horizontal and vertical strokes.

Never happened to me with Resilience, but I've only used it when repainting doors with the same color (whites, and a brown that I cannot remember if it was a medium or deep base, as it was supplied by the customer).


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> That's what it appears to me to be from the photo, but I believe you when you say that it is due to color difference being based upon horizontal and vertical strokes.
> 
> ).




If I didn't know better I would think the doors had been painted with two different colors and cut in at the transitions. It's really weird that it's so stark. I painted them using the method I described in the door sequencing thread. The whole side of the door gets painted at once.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> Do you remember what paints it's happened with?
> 
> I'm kinda spoiled on Gennex paints lately. Going back to Sherwin for this job with Duration on the siding and Resilience on the doors was.....disappointing. Aura is just so awesome it makes those two look bad. I used to really like Duration ext, but compared to Aura it's lackluster.
> 
> I've only seen it with those couple SW products (A-100 and Resilience), curious if that's a factor or if it's just certain colors in general.



One was Pitt tech and one was a-100


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

That's crazy! :vs_shocked: Fortunately I've yet to encounter that one hope I never do.


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## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

Only thing I can think of is the way light and shadows reflect off the small brush marks?? Vertical strokes would be more prone to side light, while horizontal strokes would be more prone to light from above.

Try spraying if you have one.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

ya gotta lay it all off in the same direction. its a deep base thing, doesn't really matter what product you use. you can buy paint for $150/g and it will do the same thing.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

I use aura for anything 3 base and up.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I painted 5 metal panel doors on a new house lately. The customer supplied the paint and had picked a dark green color in Resilience. I painted all the doors twice, rolling and back brushing all but one one of them which I rolled only just as an experiment.
> 
> I was a little disappointed that it didn't quite cover in two coats, been a while since I had to do a third coat for coverage with a premium paint. But overall they looked good.
> 
> ...


I can offer my insights, but in reality your questions regarding SW products actually lead you to the solution one way or another. Just step back and think a little more, so i won't have to spell it out and piss off all the SW lovers on PT.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Do you remember what paints it's happened with?
> 
> I'm kinda spoiled on Gennex paints lately. Going back to Sherwin for this job with Duration on the siding and Resilience on the doors was.....disappointing. Aura is just so awesome it makes those two look bad. I used to really like Duration ext, but compared to Aura it's lackluster.
> 
> I've only seen it with those couple SW products (A-100 and Resilience), curious if that's a factor or if it's just certain colors in general.


Certain colors loaded with piss poor colorants. Gennex (and Trillion by California I must add!) are the only colorants in north America that do not adversely effect the application properties and/or durability properties of the paint. In fact these two colorants will greatly increase the durability of the paint film as opposed to the modified lo voc colorants every other brand uses. They do not effect the flow and leveling properties as much as the modified glycol based colorants that SW and every other company uses because they are not just simply high solids versions of the old glycol colorants. Those high solids (lo voc) glycol based colorants can greatly effect the application of paints that are tinted with large quantities of them.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

If I was really pressed to hazard a guess about what was happening, I'd say there's some kind of a compatibility issue between the amount of tint in the paint and the paint itself. That it's separating or something, and whatever is coming out on the surface is catching the light at an odd angle and causing the color difference. It may even be that the paint can't lattice correctly with that amount of tint in it and at the slow dry time that causes. With the paint unable to lattice, it might never dry correctly with a solid film (glycol never really dries anyways), which could cause major differences in how it catches light. As I mentioned before, more tint also causes more sheen, which would make it catch light even more.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Could you not just get a colour match and drive right over this with Aura?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Could you not just get a colour match and drive right over this with Aura?


I'd give it a week to dry, first.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I guess the oddest thing about this was that the original green, which was also an ultra deep base, showed no signs of the color variations. The second green was only one or two shades darker and lacked the bluish tinge. It's like adding that little bit of extra colorant crossed a line of some kind caused this weirdness to happen. 

The first time I saw this it was with a very dark green that looks almost black in certain light. 

I'm going to try to compare the formulas and see if I can pin down the difference. 

Some of the comments in the thread indicate that this phenomenon is more common than I realize. The overall lack of comments from regular posters could mean that this is just an expected thing, that I should really already know about and they don't want to embarrass me. Or, that very few PT ers have seen this and don't know what's going on either. 

I started kicking myself for not just spraying the doors about half way through. With the color change and extra coat I ended up with something stupid like 20 hours for those 5 doors (Both sides). It took half that time to spray the siding.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Romanski said:


> Only thing I can think of is the way light and shadows reflect off the small brush marks?? Vertical strokes would be more prone to side light, while horizontal strokes would be more prone to light from above.


This, or something along this line, is basically what came to my mind.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Some of the comments in the thread indicate that this phenomenon is more common than I realize. The overall lack of comments from regular posters could mean that this is just an expected thing, that I should really already know about and they don't want to embarrass me. Or, that very few PT ers have seen this and don't know what's going on either.


I would hazard a guess that the lack of response speaks more to a lack of having any answers for you rather than anything you should have known to begin with. It's hard to say much without looking at it other than "deep bases suck with glycol colorants."


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> It's hard to say much without looking at it other than "deep bases suck with glycol colorants."





I'm starting to think it could be that simple. 

Another tidbit is that the first slightly lighter green was a custom match to a Valspar color, and the second green was an actual SW color. The one that did the weirdness was SW Hunt Club 6468. 

I don't have the can for the Hunt Club to compare colorants, but I do still have the can from when I had the same problem years ago. I kept it as a color reference (and just because I'm a paint hoarder). It was a custom color also, but seems to have more tint than the original green I used on these doors. 

The first green that did fine;









The old green that did the same color flashing years ago;









I just keep thinking there has to be something more to this mystery than just SW sucks (or just glycol tints in general), but perhaps not. 

I know the manager at the SW they bought the paint from. He's a good, knowledgable guy that's been there for years. Think I'll hit him up on Monday and see what he has to say about it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I run into this many times when trying to get an exact match at SW. Most times I will try to find the most closest color in a SW color and convince the client to go with that. 

I use Sherwin now simply out of convenience, its a PITA and many miles for me to purchase BM products anymore. If BM would abandon their independent dealers were I could go anywhere and get the same service and prices it wouldn't even be a consideration who I would use.

As for the difference in color between the stiles and rails I am guessing its just lighting and the way its bouncing differently off the horizontal and vertical brush strokes.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I would hazard a guess that the lack of response speaks more to a lack of having any answers for you rather than anything you should have known to begin with. It's hard to say much without looking at it other than "deep bases suck with glycol colorants."


To be blunt about it, yes they do!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I'm starting to think it could be that simple.
> 
> Another tidbit is that the first slightly lighter green was a custom match to a Valspar color, and the second green was an actual SW color. The one that did the weirdness was SW Hunt Club 6468.
> 
> ...


Not just glycol colorants, but the new high solids, lo voc glycol colorants that Ben Moore tested 10 years ago and determined they were just a stopgap method to meet upcoming voc regulations on colorants. They developed the Gennex colorants because they realized they had a much better performance potential then just a warmed over conventional glycol colorant. Cali came to the same conclusion and got the licensing to manufacture the Trillion line, which is a technology developed in Holland. ( ohh those dutch and their paints!)

I also think that there is a pigment "flop" issue with the paint. This is caused by the pigments "laying down" with a directional pattern. This is commonly seen with metallic paints (which is why it is almost impossible to touch up metallic automobile paints.) but can also happen when high concentrations of a poorly ground pigment is used. Sometimes you can work it with a brush to minimize the effect but all you are actually doing is minimizing the light reflective properties of the pigment. I would highly recommend a coat of Aura or the Ben Moore paint of your choice, tinted with the gennex colorants. That is of course only if you don't have access to Cali paint and a dealer that uses the Trillion colorants. Not all of them do because it can be a difficult colorant to work with do to its extreme tint strength.

And don't expect too much from a SW store employee or a rep. If they know what is causing this (i bet not), then they probably aren't going to fess up to it anyway. They get that pay by trumping up SW and not by being honest about potential problems with their products.

And the old color was tinted with the old Blend a color colorants. The new color uses the lo voc. The high solid colorants will adversely effect the paint film. But they (and most other companies) will never admit to this.

And I can tell just by the color dot on that can lid that a paint tinted with the Trillion colorant would hide much better. That dot is transparent around the edges. They just put a real thick dot on it and the paint bled into the paper of the sticker.

In fact, don't be surprised if the SW manager were to tell you I was full of 5hit. All i can tell you is to try what I said for yourself.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

There's a ton of G2 in both of those, and a ton of colorant in both in general.

As I understand it: When latex paint dries it forms a film when the water evaporates. It takes oxygen from the air (O2) and compacts (due to losing volume), which is when you get cross-linking bonds. But glycol based colorants can't cross-link with paint like that, and I'd be willing to bet when there's a boatload in there like that it could get "in between" the molecules of paint, so to speak, and block those bonds from forming. Purely speculation, but that would be my best guess.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> I use Sherwin now simply out of convenience, its a PITA and many miles for me to purchase BM products anymore. If BM would abandon their independent dealers were I could go anywhere and get the same service and prices it wouldn't even be a consideration who I would use.
> 
> .




Totally get you there. I recently moved my "home base" from Boone NC to Johnson City TN. I had gotten so used to having a top notch BM dealer at Boone Paint&Interiors that I feel lost without them. 

Over in JC I'm reduced to buying BM paint from a lumber yard (no offense Drake ), or a little mom and pop wallpaper center. It sucks really, as far as I can tell nobody in Johnson City even caries Ultra Spec. There used to be a little hole in the wall BM dealer over there that could at least order what you needed in a reasonable time but they went out of business and were replaced by Ferrell Calhoon. 

I still go to Boone pretty often for paint even though it's 40 miles in the wrong direction. It's the only place I can get certain products I've come to rely on. It is tempting to switch to SW for convince, but all I have to do when I start thinking that way is walk into the Johnson City SW that is staffed by clueless college kids to remember why I don't want to go there. 

Plus, Genex paints just blow everything else (that I've tried) out of the water.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Over in JC I'm reduced to buying BM paint from a lumber yard (no offense Drake ), or a little mom and pop wallpaper center.


*cries*


Have you tried talking to them about the Ultra Spec? Usually we can get orders in store within a couple of days, though it depends on the amount of product they move if they'll be able to make an order or not. They might be willing to carry one sheen for you in store, too. Depends on the owner/manager of course, but I'm super flexible with product, so if a painter comes in and asks and it's something I think I could sell in my market I'll pick up a new product to try out in a heartbeat.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Totally get you there. I recently moved my "home base" from Boone NC to Johnson City TN. I had gotten so used to having a top notch BM dealer at Boone Paint&Interiors that I feel lost without them.
> 
> Over in JC I'm reduced to buying BM paint from a lumber yard (no offense Drake ), or a little mom and pop wallpaper center. It sucks really, as far as I can tell nobody in Johnson City even caries Ultra Spec. There used to be a little hole in the wall BM dealer over there that could at least order what you needed in a reasonable time but they went out of business and were replaced by Ferrell Calhoon.
> 
> ...


I took the liberty of doing a dealer search on the California website using Knoxville as a location and a 100 mile radius. There are two California dealers in that area one in Knoxville called Mil-spec coatings and one in Alcoa at Anderson Lumber company. I believe all of the Anderson Lumber locations deal with Cali but I'm not sure. If you are a fan of the Gennex colorants then the Trillion colorants will not disappoint you. If you can get the 2010 paint line then you will be getting an excellent exterior paint. One of the best.

They are both over 90 miles from Johnson city, but keep in mind that i have several customers driving farther then that for California on a regular basis. But I'm beginning to believe i am just a stop on their Lake Erie fishing trips. It's fine with me though.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PACman said:


> Not just glycol colorants, but the new high solids, lo voc glycol colorants that Ben Moore tested 10 years ago and determined they were just a stopgap method to meet upcoming voc regulations on colorants. They developed the Gennex colorants because they realized they had a much better performance potential then just a warmed over conventional glycol colorant. Cali came to the same conclusion and got the licensing to manufacture the Trillion line, which is a technology developed in Holland. ( ohh those dutch and their paints!)
> 
> .




Let me see if I've got this straight. When it became clear that traditional colorants were not going to meet increasingly strict VOC regulations some companies like SW, tweaked the glycol based colorants to comply while other companies (BM and California) developed new colorant systems all together.

In tweaking (removing VOC's) the old colorants there performance was adversely affected. 

Don't know if it's directly related but that makes sense in the context of another thing I noticed about the deep base colors I used on that house. 

I'm used to seeing pigment staining after using deep base colors. A really dark green will usually stain the tips of your brush bristles and soak into the pours of the skin on your hands. That didn't happen with these paints. 

Here's a brush used in that dark green all day that came almost completely clean with a simple cold water spray out. 

















Only some very slight traces of the green on the very tips of the bristles. Not nearly what I have came to expect from deep greens. 

Also after working with it all day, it washed off my hands easily with cold water and no pigment staining in the pours of skin. 

As I was spraying the siding with the dark brown, a few blobs of paint that got on the textured vinyl soffit wiped off easily with a damp rag. No smearing or staining like I would normally expect. 

This may also may explain the extreme fading I'm seeing from some paints lately. This is a section of Hardee plank that I removed to get a color match on a three year old house done with Duration. You can clearly see the difference between the exposed section of board on the left and the part that was under the lap on the right. 










Of course paint is going to fade over time but I was a little shocked at the severity of it in this case. This wasn't even on the sunny side of the house, but the back that only gets sun for a few hours in the afternoon. 

I didn't really mean for this to turn into a SW bashing thread, but that's kinda how it turned out. 

I wish I had a comparable sample of Aura to compare.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> *cries*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They have worked with me some. They started carrying Advance at our request, which was all fine and good until one day I needed some satin and all they had was semi gloss. Ended up driving to Boone that day. 

I'm going to keep working with them and see where it goes. I'm not sure that enough painters in that area want to use BM for them to justify carrying a full line. They do keep plenty of Aura, but I think we are the only ones that buy it from them in any volume. 

I've been trying to goad Ken and Doug, the owners of Boone Paint, into expanding in that direction. When the little BM in JC closed, they said they had considered buying it. But the location wasn't great and their market research wasn't encouraging. They ended up just buying the guys stock and Ferrell got the building/business.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Everything else aside, the fairly amazing fade resistance of water based colorants makes them enough better than glycol to be worth paying attention to. It's pretty incredible.

Weird that they don't have Advance satin. I'd estimate I do 10x more satin than SG.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Josh,

I don't have any answers for you (no big surprise there, eh?) but really appreciate you posting about this problem you're having with the deep-base resilience. And the pictures and descriptions are, in their thoroughness, impressive and extremely informative. I wish more of us would take the time to compile such information as it often takes a wealth of information for others to make informed suggestions. And, you have forewarned us as to possible issues such as you are experiencing if we choose to use SW products in deep bases.

Drake...I thought you might have an answer for me regarding Ultra Spec which may also help Josh. My closest local Ace Hardware store never had it when I went in to look for it months ago. They said they would order it if I was interested. I went in the store a couple weeks ago and there were about 20 one gallon cans of it on the shelf with a "close-out" sign. I asked, and the lady told me that once it was gone, they would not carry it anymore. When I asked why so, she said that Ultra Spec was not compatible with their tinting machines. Does that make any sense to you? Does that have anything to do with the Gennex colorants? Does Ultra Spec not have these colorants? I'm just wondering if what she told me could be the reason other BM dealers are not carrying Ultra Spec.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Are you confusing Ultra Spec and Super Spec?

Ultra Spec is new Gennex.

Super Spec is old universal.

Then there is Super Hide and Eco Spec which make it even more confusing…

EDIT: Or maybe the ACE employee was confused about what you were asking, or simply wrong.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Are you confusing Ultra Spec and Super Spec?
> 
> Ultra Spec is new Gennex.
> 
> ...


Super spec was easily one of the worst paints I've ever used. I could have peed on the walls and added more colour.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Let me see if I've got this straight. When it became clear that traditional colorants were not going to meet increasingly strict VOC regulations some companies like SW, tweaked the glycol based colorants to comply while other companies (BM and California) developed new colorant systems all together.
> 
> In tweaking (removing VOC's) the old colorants there performance was adversely affected.
> 
> ...


Basically, all they did was lower the glycol levels in their colorants. They had to do some tweeking of them using voc compliant materials to get them to be a little more like the older, higher glyol level colorants. This is basically due to the added expense of developing and incorporating a completely new colorant system. To use the Gennex system from Ben Moore, the dealers had to get new tint machines that could handle the higher viscosity of them. This adds expense to the product. Ben Moore invested heavily into a technology that could be used for many years. California, being a smaller company, didn't have the funds to start from scratch to develop a new colorant system so they acquired the manufacturing rights to what became the Trillion colorants. That left them funds to develop new paint lines and the Storm System colorants from scratch to take full advantage of the Trillion colorants.

If you are a little knowledgeable about how alkyd paints fade quicker the most acrylics, you will understand that water based colorants have the same advantages that acrylic paints have. The "old" glycol based colorants were a technology that goes back to the dawn of "latex" paints, and there hasn't been any real big changes in them until the government forced the manufacturers to make lo voc colorants in the last several years. All they did was lower the glycol content to comply with those regulations.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> Not just glycol colorants, but the new high solids, lo voc glycol colorants that Ben Moore tested 10 years ago and determined they were just a stopgap method to meet upcoming voc regulations on colorants. They developed the Gennex colorants because they realized they had a much better performance potential then just a warmed over conventional glycol colorant. Cali came to the same conclusion and got the licensing to manufacture the Trillion line, which is a technology developed in Holland. ( ohh those dutch and their paints!)
> 
> I also think that there is a pigment "flop" issue with the paint. This is caused by the pigments "laying down" with a directional pattern. This is commonly seen with metallic paints (which is why it is almost impossible to touch up metallic automobile paints.) but can also happen when high concentrations of a poorly ground pigment is used. Sometimes you can work it with a brush to minimize the effect but all you are actually doing is minimizing the light reflective properties of the pigment. I would highly recommend a coat of Aura or the Ben Moore paint of your choice, tinted with the gennex colorants. That is of course only if you don't have access to Cali paint and a dealer that uses the Trillion colorants. Not all of them do because it can be a difficult colorant to work with do to its extreme tint strength.
> 
> ...


 Excellent and very accurate. In addition, the effect of "metamarism" is present. The same color looking different under different light, which is a result I believe in this case of over load of glycols that get pushed down in a different direction when brushing or rolling. Kind of like suede. If you brush it one way it is dark, and push down the fibers it lighter.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Romanski said:


> Only thing I can think of is the way light and shadows reflect off the small brush marks?? Vertical strokes would be more prone to side light, while horizontal strokes would be more prone to light from above.





lilpaintchic said:


> ya gotta lay it all off in the same direction. its a deep base thing, doesn't really matter what product you use.





straight_lines said:


> As for the difference in color between the stiles and rails I am guessing its just lighting and the way its bouncing differently off the horizontal and vertical brush strokes.





NACE said:


> Excellent and very accurate. In addition, the effect of "metamarism" is present. The same color looking different under different light, which is a result I believe in this case of over load of glycols that get pushed down in a different direction when brushing or rolling. *Kind of like suede. If you brush it one way it is dark, and push down the fibers it lighter.*


Nice! So "metamarism" is the technical term for what we experience in the field. I like the suede analogy.
@RH can impress his university town clients with that one.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> Are you confusing Ultra Spec and Super Spec?
> 
> Ultra Spec is new Gennex.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure someone in this situation was mixing up SS and US.

SS was the older BM "contractor grade." It took universal (BM's "Color Preview" colorant).

US is the newer (and much, much better) "contractor grade." It takes waterbased colorant (BM's "Gennex").

I wouldn't be surprised to hear most places are getting rid of Super Spec, as many (including myself) are working to get rid of universal colorant entirely. I would be surprised to hear of someone getting rid of US, as it's new and quite a good product.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> Excellent and very accurate. In addition, the effect of "metamarism" is present. The same color looking different under different light, which is a result I believe in this case of over load of glycols that get pushed down in a different direction when brushing or rolling. Kind of like suede. If you brush it one way it is dark, and push down the fibers it lighter.


I couldn't remember the word "metamarism". Thanks for bringing it up.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I guess the oddest thing about this was that the original green, which was also an ultra deep base, showed no signs of the color variations. The second green was only one or two shades darker and lacked the bluish tinge. It's like adding that little bit of extra colorant crossed a line of some kind caused this weirdness to happen.
> 
> The first time I saw this it was with a very dark green that looks almost black in certain light.
> 
> ...


Jay, 

I've had this happen to me over the years. I remember sometime in the early 90's while painting with an interior alkyd made by Sinclair, or Hoffman's paint, that I would get color changes (yellow) when laying off with a brush. Very frustrating. And the paint was just a simple off white, close to Antique.

Recently, I sprayed an exterior with a waterborne acrylic that was tinted with Universal Tints. I did have some run problems, but the paint film seemed to dry normally. However, I did notice that if i brushed out a run without shooting a quick mist over it, it dried a lighter shade. Not good. Fortunately, the project wasn't critical in terms of aesthetics, or i would have been beside myself with the problems I had.

As one poster mentioned, I try spraying when these things occur. Or find another product.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks CA, I had a feeling this experience wasn't a total anomaly. Especially since I could remember it happening once before. 

No matter how much experience any single one of us has, it pales in comparison to the collective experience of P.T.. It's really cool to me that we seem to have fleshed out the reason this particular thing happens. 

Hopefully, with the advent of water based colorants, this problem will eventually be a thing of the past. Though I'm sure we will discover some quirks with it as well.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks to the input from those members knowledgeable on the subject, I too am going to look more into paints with the new tints. I'm not sure some of the industrial acrylic coatings I'm using are tinted with anything other than the universal tints. And more often than not, I'm using some pretty deep tones.

And by the way Jay, really nice brush work on that door!


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I've never even heard the term, "metamerism", although I think most of us have experienced it to some degree. Good info on this thread for sure.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I've never even heard the term, "metamerism", although I think most of us have experienced it to some degree. Good info on this thread for sure.


It's actually a pretty common term to people who are doing a lot of color matching. Some customers think it's a cop out, but it is an actual phenomena.
Anyone who has had much experience with metallic paints is quite familiar with it.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Thanks to the input from those members knowledgeable on the subject, I too am going to look more into paints with the new tints. I'm not sure some of the industrial acrylic coatings I'm using are tinted with anything other than the universal tints. And more often than not, I'm using some pretty deep tones.
> 
> And by the way Jay, really nice brush work on that door!


Afaik none of the heavy hitting industrial coatings have moved to waterborne colorant systems yet, unfortunately. I have a feeling it's more to do with the incredible expense behind formulating industrial coatings (not just the engineering, getting it testing, years of performance testing, meeting specs, etc) than companies not wanting to explore waterborne colorants. Hopefully it's something we'll see in the near future.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Working with deep base today. No problems whatsoever.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> It's actually a pretty common term to people who are doing a lot of color matching. Some customers think it's a cop out, but it is an actual phenomena.
> Anyone who has had much experience with metallic paints is quite familiar with it.


This particular problem sounds like a classic case of geometric metameric failure.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> Working with deep base today. No problems whatsoever.


covers great over the blue label for sure:thumbsup: is that two coats or three?
did you use primer first? tinted?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> Working with deep base today. No problems whatsoever.


It is probably a color specific issue not a paint issue. The colorants are what is causing the problem, although it can be magnified by a paint that doesn't lay-out well.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> This particular problem sounds like a classic case of geometric metameric failure.


Pills? This can be overcome by the manufacturers if they keep a closer control of the pigment quality they use. If a pigment is ground fine enough it minimizes
the problem somewhat. The problem is the fineness of grind of a pigment is a large determining factor in it's cost, and that cuts into profits. Again, one of the reasons some paint brands are a little more expensive then others.(Aura, Etc.)

I think all of you have become aware of a certain poster trying to sell resins directly through this forum. He is from China, and they have been selling resins and pigments more and more in the US the last couple of years. They are being very aggressive in trying to direct market their products to just about anyone who comes up under a "paint" search. (even me!). They claim that their products meet the spec's required by the manufacturers, but when you push them for those written spec's and the certifications for them they don't have them. The samples they may send will be to spec, but over a period of time they will slip in cheaper raw materials. This is becoming a big issue in the manufacturing side of the business. I'm not saying SW may be importing raw materials from China but it would be a good bet, as some of the materials they are selling are a fraction of the cost from traditional suppliers.

When you are talking about mineral raw materials, such as titanium dioxide, the quality control isn't as big as an issue. But with the other pigments, the fineness of grind can cause BIG problems. Of course the manufacturers have the ability to test them to make sure they meet spec, but very few will add cost to their product by doing it and will instead just rely on the supplier to provide in spec product.

We all know how that has worked in the dog food, childrens' toys, drywall, wood flooring, paneling, etc.products.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> Pills? This can be overcome by the manufacturers if they keep a closer control of the pigment quality they use. If a pigment is ground fine enough it minimizes
> the problem somewhat. The problem is the fineness of grind of a pigment is a large determining factor in it's cost, and that cuts into profits. Again, one of the reasons some paint brands are a little more expensive then others.(Aura, Etc.)
> 
> I think all of you have become aware of a certain poster trying to sell resins directly through this forum. He is from China, and they have been selling resins and pigments more and more in the US the last couple of years. They are being very aggressive in trying to direct market their products to just about anyone who comes up under a "paint" search. (even me!). They claim that their products meet the spec's required by the manufacturers, but when you push them for those written spec's and the certifications for them they don't have them. The samples they may send will be to spec, but over a period of time they will slip in cheaper raw materials. This is becoming a big issue in the manufacturing side of the business. I'm not saying SW may be importing raw materials from China but it would be a good bet, as some of the materials they are selling are a fraction of the cost from traditional suppliers.
> ...


 
This is exactly why BM colorants are all proprietary. They make all their own colorants and mostly all acrylic and alkyd resins.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

The house (it's that house again), is trimmed out in Azek Trim which is a PVC that looks like wood. According to Sherwin Williams and Azek, with Resilience, primer is not needed. So There is (2) coats of paint on the trim.

Just for fun, *for Chrisn*, here is a piece of plywood (1) coat horizontal and vertical brush strokes (deep base).


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> It is probably a color specific issue not a paint issue. The colorants are what is causing the problem, although it can be magnified by a paint that doesn't lay-out well.


Luckily most competent painters also realize that different colorants are made of different things and behave differently, so just because one deep base color works okay in one scenario doesn't mean all of them everywhere will.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Luckily most competent painters also realize that different colorants are made of different things and behave differently, so just because one deep base color works okay in one scenario doesn't mean all of them everywhere will.


A good example might be that vinyl-safe colors might behave differently than the others.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> Luckily most competent painters also realize that different colorants are made of different things and behave differently, so just because one deep base color works okay in one scenario doesn't mean all of them everywhere will.



That was the odd thing here to me. That this effect was so apparent with one specific dark green when another only slightly lighter green showed no sign of it in the same conditions (same substrate and application). 

It's like there is a line that when crossed, presumably a concentration of colorants or a specific colorant, shows this effect.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

NACE said:


> This is exactly why BM colorants are all proprietary. They make all their own colorants and mostly all acrylic and alkyd resins.


Yup. And they are more expensive because of it. But cheap raw materials make cheap paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> The house (it's that house again), is trimmed out in Azek Trim which is a PVC that looks like wood. According to Sherwin Williams and Azek, with Resilience, primer is not needed. So There is (2) coats of paint on the trim.
> 
> Just for fun, *for Chrisn*, here is a piece of plywood (1) coat horizontal and vertical brush strokes (deep base).


I see they may get their landscaping done before the snow flies!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> The house (it's that house again), is trimmed out in Azek Trim which is a PVC that looks like wood. According to Sherwin Williams and Azek, with Resilience, primer is not needed. So There is (2) coats of paint on the trim.
> 
> Just for fun, *for Chrisn*, here is a piece of plywood (1) coat horizontal and vertical brush strokes (deep base).


Any 100% exterior acrylic can go over Azek without a primer. I'm assuming that's a vinyl-safe color, since one thing Azek is adamant about is using only colors with LRVs >55.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> Any 100% exterior acrylic can go over Azek without a primer. I'm assuming that's a vinyl-safe color, since one thing Azek is adamant about is using only colors with LRVs >55.


Pretty sure Royal says the same thing about theirs (brand I sell).


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Any 100% exterior acrylic can go over Azek without a primer. I'm assuming that's a vinyl-safe color, since one thing Azek is adamant about is using only colors with LRVs >55.


Yup! That's how SW does it. The colors on the vinylsafe color card are all lighter then the 55% LRV spec most siding manufacturers use. That's all it is. No smoke. No mirrors. Nothing new and exciting.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Pretty sure Royal says the same thing about theirs (brand I sell).


I think, for a while at least, Sherwin has advertised that their products were approved ( or some such ) by Hardie as well That was, at best, a half truth, since Hardie, like Azek, merely specs 100% acrylic.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Totally get you there. I recently moved my "home base" from Boone NC to Johnson City TN. I had gotten so used to having a top notch BM dealer at Boone Paint&Interiors that I feel lost without them.
> 
> Over in JC I'm reduced to buying BM paint from a lumber yard (no offense Drake ), or a little mom and pop wallpaper center. It sucks really, as far as I can tell nobody in Johnson City even caries Ultra Spec. There used to be a little hole in the wall BM dealer over there that could at least order what you needed in a reasonable time but they went out of business and were replaced by Ferrell Calhoon.


I feel your pain bud. Nothing worse than getting paints at a lumberyard or hardware store. Those places are normally low on inventory year round. And what stock they do have, has been sitting on the shelves for months, sometimes six months to a year. Most of these type of places are lucky to sell 25 gallons of paint on any given week day. And maybe 100 gallons on a Saturday. 

*Sound familiar?* _"sorry sir, we don't have that particular base, however, we can get it in for you by next Tuesday"._ Rebuttal; "geez thanks, but I am scheduled to have this job done by this Friday".


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Luckily most competent painters also realize that different colorants are made of different things and behave differently, so just because one deep base color works okay in one scenario doesn't mean all of them everywhere will.


Agreed, and I'd like to take it a step further. This is common knowledge to most competent 2nd year painter apprentices as well. It's kinda like 2+2 is 4 and/or the A B C's - Basic stuff.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> Any 100% exterior acrylic can go over Azek without a primer. I'm assuming that's a vinyl-safe color, since one thing Azek is adamant about is using only colors with LRVs >55.


Mr Gough, I didn't paint the exterior of the house. I took over the job for another painter. I am actually painting the 3 car garage and areas of the house where the painter missed.

The color is a SW custom match. Which is matched to the gutters and downspouts. I had nothing to do with the color or product choice. The paint was already on the jobsite when I got here. However, I did run in by the manager at the SW store near me and he gave the color a thumbs up. The color is really not a dark color.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> Mr Gough, I didn't paint the exterior of the house. I took over the job for another painter. I am actually painting the 3 car garage and areas of the house where the painter missed.
> 
> The color is a SW custom match. Which is matched to the gutters and downspouts. I had nothing to do with the color or product choice. The paint was already on the jobsite when I got here. However, I did run in by the manager at the SW store near me and he gave the color a thumbs up. The color is really not a dark color.


Is that the same deep base color from post #46?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> Is that the same deep base color from post #46?


You mean the one that covered the can so well?:whistling2:


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

What is this a union job? Lol you have been posting pics of this house for a very long time. Everything ok? T and m or wats the problem exactly?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> What is this a union job? Lol you have been posting pics of this house for a very long time. Everything ok? T and m or wats the problem exactly?


I have a painter here that has been on the same house just as long. He hasn't been able to keep up with other jobs and has lost several because of it. Hopefully paintersunite is able to do other jobs while he is working through this one. Or he is making a good chunk of change on it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> I feel your pain bud. Nothing worse than getting paints at a lumberyard or hardware store. Those places are normally low on inventory year round. And what stock they do have, has been sitting on the shelves for months, sometimes six months to a year. Most of these type of places are lucky to sell 25 gallons of paint on any given week day. And maybe 100 gallons on a Saturday.
> 
> *Sound familiar?* _"sorry sir, we don't have that particular base, however, we can get it in for you by next Tuesday"._ Rebuttal; "geez thanks, but I am scheduled to have this job done by this Friday".


Inventory control is one of the three most difficult aspects of running a paint store or department. No one can afford to sit on tens of thousands of dollars of inventory just to have 100 gallons of each base in each sheen/gloss in every product line.

That being said, a well run store that actually keeps track of such things should be able to beef up inventory of products that painters use on a regular basis. Some times past sales can be used as a gauge (what SW,PPG,Glidden do), sometimes it is up to store personnel to modify order points manually (what Home Depot, Lowe's, Menard's do). Or stores like myself, that just wing it by memory. It is a much more difficult thing to do then most painter's realize, although I certainly understand the thought process behind "just have it". Sometimes a little communication with the store personnel can help, sometimes it's like talking to a tree. But that is one of the things that determines the quality of service the store is giving you.

I am quite lucky that both of my paint suppliers are a one day ship point from my store and i can get just about anything overnight. My main sundry supplier is less then ten minutes away. Both of these are advantages i have that are the exception, not the rule. Most paint stores deal with a 2-3 day delivery time, not to mention minimum orders.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Even though I'm one of those ****ty lumber yards, I have excellent inventory control. I can cover any normal needs easily. If someone wants a bunch of something unusual, they know to give me 2 day's notice so I can get it in. Otherwise, I've pretty much always got it covered. But generalizations are a fun way to subtly talk down to people, so don't let me get in the way of that


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> Is that the same deep base color from post #46?


Yes it is. In the shade it looks darker.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Even though I'm one of those ****ty lumber yards, I have excellent inventory control. I can cover any normal needs easily. If someone wants a bunch of something unusual, they know to give me 2 day's notice so I can get it in. Otherwise, I've pretty much always got it covered. But generalizations are a fun way to subtly talk down to people, so don't let me get in the way of that


Conversely, how many painters wake up one day and suddenly have a job needing 50 gallons of paint that morning? For some reason there seems to be quite a few of them. Do any of you painters ever get jobs when you don't get more then 3-4 days to order the paint?

Like my old favorite saying goes, lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part. I don't think i can begin to count how many times a painter needed a large order of paint and didn't order it until the day before the job, even though they had the paint and color spec's weeks beforehand.

And if anyone says anything like "SW doesn't have that problem" I call Bull5hit on that. I know. It happens to them just as much as it does anyone else. I spent ten years with them and i have many, many friends that still work for them.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> What is this a union job? Lol you have been posting pics of this house for a very long time. Everything ok? T and m or wats the problem exactly?


Seth, you don't understand what a perfectionist this customer is. I have never worked for a HO so picky. The interior was 40% painted by (2) different painters before I was hired and I did the whole place over again, from scratch. There were invoices from Sherwin Williams laying around totaling $2,000 from the 2nd painter - all went to waste. This guy throws money around like it's nothing. He is real religious - (he says it's gods money).

I've been here since March 27, 2015. Talk about job security! If I told you how much money this guy has paid me, you would think I am lying. It's the job that keeps writing checks. 

I should be done by the end of next week and I dread having to go back out there giving FREE estimates.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> Seth, you don't understand what a perfectionist this customer is. I have never worked for a HO so picky. The interior was 40% painted by (2) different painters before I was hired and I did the whole place over again, from scratch. There were invoices from Sherwin Williams laying around totaling $2,000 from the 2nd painter - all went to waste. This guy throws money around like it's nothing. He is real religious - (he says it's gods money).
> 
> I've been here since March 27, 2015. Talk about job security! If I told you how much money this guys has paid me, you would think I am lying. It's the job that keeps writing checks.
> 
> I should be done by the end of next week and I dread having to go back out there giving FREE estimates.


Hey if you are making the money it's great right? Good for you.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Oh ok awsome for you sit on it as long as you can then. I'm glad you are making money. I would never hate on the next man for making money. I thought you where having issues. Was trying to help.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

PACman said:


> Hey if you are making the money it's great right? Good for you.


Yes, this was a great money making project. Happy me!
Here is a photo for you and Drake. Not (1), not (2), but (3) Sherwin Williams reps came out today to meet me, and see the Land of Oz. :thumbsup:


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

What was the reasoning behind that? 3 reps? Imo that's a little excessive.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Sherwin williams reps are a joke around here they push that super paint. Tried telling me that it's the best paint on the market for the money. I'd use ultra spec before that was gonna say paint but imo it's watered down caulking.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Seth The Painter said:


> Sherwin williams reps are a joke around here they push that super paint. Tried telling me that it's the best paint on the market for the money. I'd use ultra spec before that was gonna say paint but imo it's watered down caulking.


There have been lots of posts about the variance in the quality of SW reps, some are good, some are just as you've described. Around here, it's definetely been the latter... one halfwit after another. Assuming that it's multiplicative,
you can do the math for three reps: 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> What was the reasoning behind that? 3 reps? Imo that's a little excessive.


Well, my rep is the guy in the middle. I called him up and told him he had to come check out this house and paint work. I told him it was my monumental paint job and I sent him a few photos of the house. 

Since this isn't your standard cookie cutter house, I assume he wanted to bring whoever was available to check it out. And to be quite frank, the work is done here (there's not a necessity for a rep) - now it is a show piece.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> Yes, this was a great money making project. Happy me!
> Here is a photo for you and Drake. Not (1), not (2), but (3) Sherwin Williams reps came out today to meet me, and see the Land of Oz. :thumbsup:


Is the middle one Nate Wolf


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Oh ok. You used all sherwin products on the house? I hope they liked it my man. Squeeze them for everything you can they definitely have more power than the BM reps to give stuff away and get you better pricing. Tell em your gonna take your business elsewhere and see what they do for you. 

I make the bm reps buy us lunch all the time.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Here's another photo of that can of paint for Chrisn. His seems to enjoy photos of cans of paint, particularly BEHR. :jester:

BTW - that spot to the right of the can, is from the masonry guys.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Seth The Painter said:


> What was the reasoning behind that? 3 reps? Imo that's a little excessive.


Maybe they'd never seen paint on a wall before. Who knows where they get their reps from.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> There have been lots of posts about the variance in the quality of SW reps, some are good, some are just as you've described. Around here, it's *definetely* been the latter... one halfwit after another. Assuming that it's multiplicative,
> you can do the math for three reps: 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2.


It's amazing how 1/2 the painters on PT can take a positive and religiously put a negative spin on it. There's a chosen few, who have the powerful skill to put a negative spin on an actual "can of paint" not the paint itself, but the *can* (haha) love it. I believe 1/2 of these guys are the new Bruce Jenner. :jester:

Envy is a tough pill for some to swallow, remember that!

BTW Gough, you spelled "definetely" wrong.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> It's amazing how 1/2 the painters on PT can take a positive and religiously put a negative spin on it. There's a chosen few, who have the powerful skill to put a negative spin on an actual "can of paint" not the paint itself, but the *can* (haha) love it. I believe 1/2 of these guys are the new Bruce Jenner. :jester:
> 
> Envy is a tough pill for some to swallow, remember that!
> 
> BTW Gough, you spelled "definetely" wrong.


You didn't see my new avatar did you? It's the person who has been inside me all my life!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Maybe they'd never seen paint on a wall before. Who knows where they get their reps from.


Maybe they just haven't been in a house that nice before. And my guess would be that they weren't all reps, but the reps sales manager (his boss) and possibly a sales department regional manager(HIS boss). Nothing like brown nosing the boss to a SW employee! And what better way to do it then to take them to a beautiful house with a beautiful paint job. Painted with their paint. I'm sure they are gunning to get their picture in the company newsletter.

Not to pick on you paintersunite but i'm sure brown nosing had something to do with there being three of them there.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Maybe they'd never seen paint on a wall before. Who knows where they get their reps from.


Probably from China where they get everything else from


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> Probably from China where they get everything else from


Doooong! DOOOOOONG! Where is my AUTOMOBILE!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

The same thing happens on walls (especially noticeable on smooth) if you don't lay it all off in the same direction. you will notice it "picture frames" at the cut lines, and streaks down the wall. ya gotta play with your technique a bit when playing with deep bases (and some darker end of the spectrum mediums) I don't care so much about the science of why (though it is interesting) as I do about how to avoid it all together. I use SW all the time. fair product, fair price, great service. Consistency makes my job so much easier. Know your product and know your project. Experience is the best teacher... I sometimes wonder if the sales guys have any field experience.....I don't always trust their judgement. their job is to sell. my job is to make it fly. it's definitely a team effort, but at the end of the day, the brush is in my hand and the check goes to me. cut your doors in, use a foam roller (gently go over your brush strokes for a uniform texture) and lay it all off in the same direction keeping a wet edge and your problem will resolve itself. 
Exterior spotting (color is off) problems on a deep base during touch up? Run a bunch back into the cut pot (enough to finish punch) through the tip before you clean out the pump and it won't change color on you. use ONLY that bucket for punch.
Deeper colors can be a nightmare sometimes. Success is definitely in the technique.
No paint store sales guy is going to have the solution because they sell the paint, they don't actually use it. sorry if that ruffles feathers, that's just been my experience. take it or leave it. Happy painting!


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

PaintersUnite said:


> Here's another photo of that can of paint for Chrisn. His seems to enjoy photos of cans of paint, particularly BEHR. :jester:
> 
> BTW - that spot to the right of the can, is from the masonry guys.


Really? ?? Resilience on your best painting project in your so called 150 years experience. Resilience though? ?I could think of 20 better products that are better.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

lilpaintchic said:


> The same thing happens on walls (especially noticeable on smooth) if you don't lay it all off in the same direction. you will notice it "picture frames" at the cut lines, and streaks down the wall. ya gotta play with your technique a bit when playing with deep bases (and some darker end of the spectrum mediums) I don't care so much about the science of why (though it is interesting) as I do about how to avoid it all together. I use SW all the time. fair product, fair price, great service. Consistency makes my job so much easier. Know your product and know your project. Experience is the best teacher... I sometimes wonder if the sales guys have any field experience.....I don't always trust their judgement. their job is to sell. my job is to make it fly. it's definitely a team effort, but at the end of the day, the brush is in my hand and the check goes to me. cut your doors in, use a foam roller (gently go over your brush strokes for a uniform texture) and lay it all off in the same direction keeping a wet edge and your problem will resolve itself.
> Exterior spotting (color is off) problems on a deep base during touch up? Run a bunch back into the cut pot (enough to finish punch) through the tip before you clean out the pump and it won't change color on you. use ONLY that bucket for punch.
> Deeper colors can be a nightmare sometimes. Success is definitely in the technique.
> No paint store sales guy is going to have the solution because they sell the paint, they don't actually use it. sorry if that ruffles feathers, that's just been my experience. take it or leave it. Happy painting!


This girl actually knows her stuff. It's very refreshing I must say. That was an awsome read. Thank you


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

lilpaintchic said:


> Experience is the best teacher... I sometimes wonder if the sales guys have any field experience.....I don't always trust their judgement. their job is to sell. my job is to make it fly. it's definitely a team effort, but at the end of the day, the brush is in my hand and the check goes to me.
> 
> Success is definitely in the technique.
> No paint store sales guy is going to have the solution because they sell the paint, they don't actually use it. sorry if that ruffles feathers, that's just been my experience. take it or leave it. Happy painting!


I completely agree with you 100%


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't find it surprising in the least that there are so many preferences in the painting industry. After all, it is the only one out of all of the other trades that is mostly targeted to the DIY'er. Mainly by the paint suppliers themselves! And why, because it isn't as critical as people make it out to be. So the color has a little variance, or the cut lines aren't straight. OMG! What an aesthetic catastrophe!

The fact is, by default a painter is going to pick up techniques and tricks if they've been painting for awhile. It certainly doesn't require a lot of research. Just simple practice.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> The same thing happens on walls (especially noticeable on smooth) if you don't lay it all off in the same direction. you will notice it "picture frames" at the cut lines, and streaks down the wall. ...
> 
> ....Deeper colors can be a nightmare sometimes. Success is definitely in the technique.
> 
> !



Thanks for your reply, good post. 

I'm familiar with one directional lay off when rolling walls. It helps tremendously with sheen flashing. And deeper colors exacerbate the effect. Now that I think about it, I've seen that type flashing so extreme that it did make the flashes appear to be somewhat different colors. Though, even in extreme cases it's more apparent as a difference in sheen than color. 

My experience with the 'picture framing effect is that it's caused by uneven film build. This effect is also more pronounced in deeper colors. If the cut in area, or more commonly the area of the cut in that was also rolled over, has a thicker film build than the surrounding wall it appears to be a darker color because of the increased hide (thicker film) of the paint over than area. Applying an extra coat, thicker coat, and/or keeping a wet edge usually remedies the problem. 

This problem, though similar to the type of flashing caused by up-and-down rolling of a smooth wall, seemed somewhat different. 

Considering all the factors;

1. The flashing only occurred with the darker of the two greens. Both were deep base, but the slightly lighter one showed no sign of it with the same application. 

2. The flashing manifested itself in color only. The sheen of the doors was consistent when viewed at an extreme angle. 

3. Because of the even color saturation on the doors prior to the coat that flashed (two coats already applied) and considering application, it seems unlikely the flashing was related to the 'picture framing effect. 

All that said, the solution was essentially the same, laying off in one direction. 

If you use SW regularly, then you use a lot more of it than I do. Having read this thread (I assume) I wonder what your thoughts are on possible over saturation of modified glycol colorants being the culprit in this case. And, if you've been using SW paints long enough, have you noticed a difference in the performance of the low VOC colorants as opposed to the higher VOC glycol based colorants of years past? (lack of pigment staining for instance). 

I guess I've been thinking this was something different than your run of the mill flashing because of the extreme variation in color without the usual accompanying sheen variations. The suggested causal factors of metamerism and 'pigment flop (as I'm understanding it) are related to how glycol colorants perform in the paint film, i.e. not cross linking with the resins but remaining separate from them, seems the most plausible explanation. 

Even if that's the case though, I suppose it's possible that ultimately it's the same issue as regular flashing that we've come expect only magnified by the concentration of colorant in some specific color/base combinations. 

I think I made the comment earlier in this thread that I'm spoiled on Gennex paints. The advent of waterborne colorants that do actual cross link with the resins, in and of itself has solved many of flashing related issues we're talking about. 

For example, with Gennex paints like Aura, Regal, or Ultra Spec it's no longer necessary (or even recommended) to keep a wet edge during application even with the deepest colors. Sheen, dry time, and bonding ability are not as compromised in darker colors because of the function colorants play in film formation. 

From what I understand this is because in the case of waterborne colorants the paint film is actually strengthened by the addition of colorants, rather than weakened by it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, or being inaccurate). 

And finally, if you haven't tried a Gennex paint give it a shot sometime. The difference in performance seems striking to me, especially in deep based colors. 

To Pac man, I don't mean to leave the Trillion line out here it's just that as of now, I have no personal experience with that particular WB colorant system due to availability. From reading the specs, it seems to share some of the improved characteristics of the Gennex system.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I completely agree with you 100%



I concur as well that's it's largely left up to the applicator to, through trial and error, work out the techniques necessary to make a coating perform in a given situation. 

We're the ones that figure out that it's necessary to brush or roll a door in one direction to avoid flashing with certain products/colors. 

What I find interesting though is the Why of it. Why would I have to brush those doors in one direction, as if I was rolling a smooth wall with the same paint. What properties of some materials make them different than others? 

Figuring these things out on a practical level, and implementing it through application techniques is our job. Pinning down why these problems occur on a chemical level, and trying to solve them is the job of the manufacturers and by extension the suppliers. 

I haven't been at this game too long really compared to many others, only a little over 20 years (oh sh!it I'm almost 40! ). From what I've seen though the changes brought about by VOC regulations, whether it be the changes made in traditional tint systems or the advent of new ones, is probably the biggest single change our industry has seen in my time. 

Especially now, I find a lot of value in the input from guys and gals on the manufacture/supply end. The ones that are doing they're homework so to speak, have a lot of relevant knowledge as to what's going on with modern coatings. 

The more I know about the "why's" the better equipped I am to figure out the practicalities. 

As an example, I don't think you would argue that the contributions of NACE have been of tremendous value to this forum over the years. He's certainly helped me understand a lot about the technical side of coatings application.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Holy crap! Does the U.S. Constitution even have this many words! 

Let me narrow the whole situation down to ground level:

Painting sucks.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Let me narrow the whole situation down to ground level:
> 
> Painting sucks.




That it does. I'm grasping at straws here to try to find something actually interesting about this trade

I should have finished college :wallbash: :jester:


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Holy crap! Does the U.S. Constitution even have this many words!
> 
> Let me narrow the whole situation down to ground level:
> 
> Painting sucks.


Unless you are making big bucks using nothing but Aura and Advance in those unoccupied mansions. That sounds pretty good to me. For better or worse, I think there are dollar signs which largely influence whether a given occupation sucks or not. No getting away from it in my opinion.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Holy crap! Does the U.S. Constitution even have this many words!
> 
> Let me narrow the whole situation down to ground level:


His IQ was above 122.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

So, how do we get out of this situation? I just watched the episode of Breaking Bad where Mike exits. Is that the final solution?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> His IQ was above 122.


Hey dude, if you're going to be a dick wad to me, say it to my facial. You can't eat your cake and guzzle a Corona too, or some sh!t like that. LOL!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Hey dude, if you're going to be a dick wad to me, say it to my facial. You can't eat your cake and guzzle a Corona too, or some sh!t like that. LOL!


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Hey dude, if you're going to be a dick wad to me, say it to my facial. You can't eat your cake and guzzle a Corona too, or some sh!t like that. LOL!


Lol. Poor guy hasn't logged in for two days and he's still getting hammered. 

Rough crowd. :2guns:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

lilpaintchic said:


> No paint store sales guy is going to have the solution because they sell the paint, they don't actually use it. sorry if that ruffles feathers, that's just been my experience. take it or leave it. Happy painting!


In my experience, hatbanding is most often caused by different thickness applications or simply different texture between brush and roller, not due to directional painting.

But what do I know, I'm just the paint store sales guy.

You know, the one who gets a whole town full of painters talking about issues they have or had in the past, and I'm the one they come to for answers. And maybe some of us paint store guys have had experience on the other side of the counter. But I'm sure it's more convenient to generalize an entire group of people and marginalize their contributions than it is to rethink your biases or think that maybe you're going to the wrong paint store to find expertise.

Sorry if that ruffles any feathers!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> The same thing happens on walls (especially noticeable on smooth) if you don't lay it all off in the same direction. you will notice it "picture frames" at the cut lines, and streaks down the wall. ya gotta play with your technique a bit when playing with deep bases (and some darker end of the spectrum mediums) I don't care so much about the science of why (though it is interesting) as I do about how to avoid it all together. I use SW all the time. fair product, fair price, great service. Consistency makes my job so much easier. Know your product and know your project. Experience is the best teacher... I sometimes wonder if the sales guys have any field experience.....I don't always trust their judgement. their job is to sell. my job is to make it fly. it's definitely a team effort, but at the end of the day, the brush is in my hand and the check goes to me. cut your doors in, use a foam roller (gently go over your brush strokes for a uniform texture) and lay it all off in the same direction keeping a wet edge and your problem will resolve itself.
> Exterior spotting (color is off) problems on a deep base during touch up? Run a bunch back into the cut pot (enough to finish punch) through the tip before you clean out the pump and it won't change color on you. use ONLY that bucket for punch.
> Deeper colors can be a nightmare sometimes. Success is definitely in the technique.
> No paint store sales guy is going to have the solution because they sell the paint, they don't actually use it. sorry if that ruffles feathers, that's just been my experience. take it or leave it. Happy painting!


NO SW store employees or sales reps have very much field experience! Unless there are a bunch of painting contractors out there with MBA's from Yale that decided to become paint store employees right out of college!
The whole idea of that is just too f-ing funny.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> This girl actually knows her stuff. It's very refreshing I must say. That was an awsome read. Thank you


You're not ruffling MY feathers. I own a paint store and you are preaching to the choir here! My field experience per se is somewhat limited, but in the years i have been in the paint business i have done a pretty good job of listening to my contractor customers. That is how i have formed my opinions of the various paint brands out there. And I might add, when i was with SW i heard quite a few comments about their products, and picture framing was a quite common complaint. In fact i went on at least 20 trouble shooting calls with "sales" reps regarding this problem.

Many times the SW marketing dept. would hold training classes where they had everyone try PM 200 against several local competitors. They always went home with their tails between their legs when the 200 got it's a55 kicked by the local Old Quacker brand at 1/2 the price! That's why they bought Old Quacker. To get them off the market. Then they have bought Frazee, Kwal, Duron, etc, etc. Just to get them off the market. Those companies sure didn't have any secret technology that SW needed. Just better paint at prices that weren't outrageous!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> In my experience, hatbanding is most often caused by different thickness applications or simply different texture between brush and roller, not due to directional painting.
> 
> But what do I know, I'm just the paint store sales guy.
> 
> ...


The PROBLEM comes from painters that habitually go to paint stores in which the personnel are only there to stock shelves and ring people up. Heaven forbid that they should give up the free marketing that SW and Behr give them by training consumers that THEY and THEY alone have the best paint. God help the painter that gives that marketing up to go to a store that has people who actually give a damn about the paint business and the desire to learn from the hundreds of painters they deal with everyday! Gotta save that dollar a gallon you know.

If you are constantly dealing with some dolt that only cares about selling you the gallon of paint and half a55 cares if he tinted it correctly then the onus is on you for enabling those stores by constantly putting up with that crap instead of buying from a store that a least attempts to provide good service. (grammar?)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> In my experience, hatbanding is most often caused by different thickness applications or simply different texture between brush and roller, not due to directional painting.
> 
> But what do I know, I'm just the paint store sales guy.
> 
> ...


Drake, as a painter (employee) I receive the same crap. Painting contractors have a tendency to believe they're smarter than everyone else in the industry. Its probably just a consequence of assuming more responsibility. I would much rather work for a painting contractor who can yield to their performer's skills and experience, rather than micro manage.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Drake, as a painter (employee) I receive the same crap. Painting contractors have a tendency to believe they're smarter than everyone else in the industry. Its probably just a consequence of assuming more responsibility. I would much rather work for a painting contractor who can yield to their performer's skills and experience, rather than micro manage.



I always say the best idea wins. If you've got a better way, we do it your way. Just let me down easy when telling me my way is dumb.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Drake, as a painter (employee) I receive the same crap. Painting contractors have a tendency to believe they're smarter than everyone else in the industry. Its probably just a consequence of assuming more responsibility. I would much rather work for a painting contractor who can yield to their performer's skills and experience, rather than micro manage.


I definitely, definitely agree that some things- especially technique and "feel"- can only be picked up by holding a brush. It's why I do my best to get out there and do it on occasion. But on the flip side of things, I deal with different problems and solutions _every day_; I get more questions/problems in a month than some of my painters will get in a lifetime. As an independent retailer, I make a living off of knowing what I'm talking about and making sure everyone gets the right products for the job. It's silly to think we don't know what we're talking about, especially on the independent front- if we didn't, we wouldn't be in business. As painters, you deal with one problem at a time, as they come up. As 'the guy' everyone comes to with their problems, I get every problem from every painter in my area. 

Now, certainly, I'm still a neophyte to the industry with tons to learn- I'll be the first to admit that. I just don't believe that not slinging paint daily means that my knowledge is automatically inferior to the painters'. Especially considering what I deal with in the store (why can't I put exterior satin house paint on this deck???) and the ignorance of some people on this site.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I've literally had painters tell me they went to 4 other paint stores looking for an answer to a question before they came here and got a legitimate answer. And it was a question about something that i have seen fairly regularly in my career. But not one person at the local SW,Glidden "pro", Home depot, or Ben Moore dealer (sorry Drakeb) had a clue what they were talking about. So I get what you are saying about the store personnel not being all that knowledgeable. Unfortunately now that "anyone can tint paint" (quote from Larry Menard btw.) the major retailers don't see any reason whatsoever to pay the wages needed to hire someone with my experience. And it is YOU guys that ultimately pay the price for that.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

BTW Drake, thanks for the math equation concerning the 1/384 measure. Most of the time I don't even pay attention to the formulas posted on the container. Becoming aware of little things like that helps build my confidence as a shareholder in this trade. At the end of the day, its the collaborative effort that makes us all better.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> BTW Drake, thanks for the math equation concerning the 1/384 measure. Most of the time I don't even pay attention to the formulas posted on the container. Becoming aware of little things like that helps build my confidence as a shareholder in this trade. At the end of the day, its the collaborative effort that makes us all better.


For the most part I don't bother checking those either. However, that has bitten me in the butt a few times. Mostly last winter when I was working for 'that guy' and I had to get paint from the disaster paint department in town.

Those guys managed to mix up what was supposed to be two gallons of the same paint, but somehow put different formulas in each can. It was weird. Same base, same paint name, different formulas, slight but noticeable colour difference. Caught it before I got started working, but it was a time waster.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> For the most part I don't bother checking those either. However, that has bitten me in the butt a few times. Mostly last winter when I was working for 'that guy' and I had to get paint from the disaster paint department in town.
> 
> Those guys managed to mix up what was supposed to be two gallons of the same paint, but somehow put different formulas in each can. It was weird. Same base, same paint name, different formulas, slight but noticeable colour difference. Caught it before I got started working, but it was a time waster.


One of the rare times it should come into play for a painter is when you're getting more of a paint that's over a year old. Some people don't realize, but paint co's reformulate both paints and color formulas once in a while. If you're getting an old color, it's always worth checking the original formula if you've got it. It's easy to keep track of in BM's software, because if I just pull up the original paint order it automatically gives me whatever formula was used then. Some programs won't have that feature or you may have gotten it from another store- in that case, always check.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> One of the rare times it should come into play for a painter is when you're getting more of a paint that's over a year old. Some people don't realize, but paint co's reformulate both paints and color formulas once in a while. If you're getting an old color, it's always worth checking the original formula if you've got it. It's easy to keep track of in BM's software, because if I just pull up the original paint order it automatically gives me whatever formula was used then. Some programs won't have that feature or you may have gotten it from another store- in that case, always check.


These guys could screw up a glass of water. A few years ago they were supposed to mix me up a gallon of this grey floor paint. I gave them the colour code. Woman handed me a gallon of bright orange stuff. With a big smile on her face.

It was the only gallon of this stuff they had in stock and I was supposed to have that job done that day otherwise it really screwed up a job schedule.

It did.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> These guys could screw up a glass of water. A few years ago they were supposed to mix me up a gallon of this grey floor paint. I gave them the colour code. Woman handed me a gallon of bright orange stuff. With a big smile on her face.
> 
> It was the only gallon of this stuff they had in stock and I was supposed to have that job done that day otherwise it really screwed up a job schedule.
> 
> It did.


Ouch. There's definitely clowns out there. I wasn't much better in my days at Big Box. Then I realized I wanted something better, and here I am.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> One of the rare times it should come into play for a painter is when you're getting more of a paint that's over a year old. Some people don't realize, but paint co's reformulate both paints and color formulas once in a while. If you're getting an old color, it's always worth checking the original formula if you've got it. It's easy to keep track of in BM's software, because if I just pull up the original paint order it automatically gives me whatever formula was used then. Some programs won't have that feature or you may have gotten it from another store- in that case, always check.


That don't splain the two different formula's though. You gotta really try to screw up that bad with most tint machines.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> These guys could screw up a glass of water. A few years ago they were supposed to mix me up a gallon of this grey floor paint. I gave them the colour code. Woman handed me a gallon of bright orange stuff. With a big smile on her face.
> 
> It was the only gallon of this stuff they had in stock and I was supposed to have that job done that day otherwise it really screwed up a job schedule.
> 
> It did.


orange instead of grey? That's a good one.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> orange instead of grey? That's a good one.


It was kind of incredible. Kind of thing that makes you question if your day thus far was just a dream and you're actually still sleeping.

These are the same folks who delivered over $500 worth of paint to a job that were all the wrong colours. GC told me what went where, I painted the entire townhouse. They were the right colours for the place next door.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It was kind of incredible. Kind of thing that makes you question if your day thus far was just a dream and you're actually still sleeping.
> 
> These are the same folks who delivered over $500 worth of paint to a job that were all the wrong colours. GC told me what went where, I painted the entire townhouse. They were the right colours for the place next door.


How'd you resolve that? I think I would have just swapped the numbers on the mailboxes and left.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> How'd you resolve that? I think I would have just swapped the numbers on the mailboxes and left.


Well, to be totally honest. Nobody even knew what had gone wrong until we got to the unit next door. I got there first day, sanded the primer down, painted some ceilings and at the end of the day the truck showed up with the paint. I planned on starting the walls the next day.

I check it out. "Weird, same as next door?" Sent the GC a text asking. He lost his mind. Next day he says he's gonna live with it because the store finances him really well and he's into them for a fortune.

These were spec town houses, so the colours were supposed to go with the flooring, cabinets, tile, etc. It didn't look horrible, but it wasn't what it was supposed to be. The second shipment was correct for the address it was sent to.

The store did offer to send the right paint and pay me out to repaint the entire thing, which the GC declined.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It was kind of incredible. Kind of thing that makes you question if your day thus far was just a dream and you're actually still sleeping.
> 
> These are the same folks who delivered over $500 worth of paint to a job that were all the wrong colours. GC told me what went where, I painted the entire townhouse. They were the right colours for the place next door.


kind of thing that makes you wonder how they got to be so sure of their tinting skills that they don't have to open the lid and at least look at the color huh?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> kind of thing that makes you wonder how they got to be so sure of their tinting skills that they don't have to open the lid and at least look at the color huh?


That's one reason I really like the girls at the paint shop I go to. When they take the can off the shaker, they dot the label with the paint. They also take the colour stub/sample and put a dot on there, dry it with a hair dryer and tape it to the top of the can.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Well, to be totally honest. Nobody even knew what had gone wrong until we got to the unit next door. I got there first day, sanded the primer down, painted some ceilings and at the end of the day the truck showed up with the paint. I planned on starting the walls the next day.
> 
> I check it out. "Weird, same as next door?" Sent the GC a text asking. He lost his mind. Next day he says he's gonna live with it because the store finances him really well and he's into them for a fortune.
> 
> ...


I heard of a guy painting the entire exterior of a two story victorian white when it was supposed to be beige because the store forgot to tint the paint after they put color stickers on the buckets once.One guy pulled the stock and put them next to the tint machine and labeled them. Then went to lunch. Another guy comes over and sees the labels already on the buckets and assumes they are tinted and ready to ship.

The bad part is the "painter" did the house next door in the same beige and new they were supposed to be the same color. He claimed he thought the white would darken to the beige when it dried.

I guess he figured he would get paid twice if he had to repaint it the correct color so he just went ahead and painted it white.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> That's one reason I really like the girls at the paint shop I go to. When they take the can off the shaker, they dot the label with the paint. They also take the colour stub/sample and put a dot on there, dry it with a hair dryer and tape it to the top of the can.


That is a good store to go to. Basic tinting requirement in my book.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> kind of thing that makes you wonder how they got to be so sure of their tinting skills that they don't have to open the lid and at least look at the color huh?


Is it too much to expect a drop of the mixed paint on top of the lid and not on any of the identifying information? If it is screwed up, it gets caught at the store, not on the job. Also, I want so see the color, especially when I am using different colors of the same paint. I have taken to bringing a black sharpie into the paint store and marking which room I will use a given gallon on the gallon so I don't have to sort it out later.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

SemiproJohn said:


> Is it too much to expect a drop of the mixed paint on top of the lid and not on any of the identifying information? If it is screwed up, it gets caught at the store, not on the job. Also, I want so see the color, especially when I am using different colors of the same paint. I have taken to bringing a black sharpie into the paint store and marking which room I will use a given gallon on the gallon so I don't have to sort it out later.


On multi-color jobs I usually ask if they want a different room on each gallon, and then hit it with a yellow highlighter so you can see just by looking what room it is.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> On multi-color jobs I usually ask if they want a different room on each gallon, and then hit it with a yellow highlighter so you can see just by looking what room it is.


Top-shelf service there, Drake! :thumbsup:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

SemiproJohn said:


> Top-shelf service there, Drake! :thumbsup:


Like PACman said, this kind of stuff is (should be) pretty standard- at least in my opinion.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

You know you're dealing with a big box store employee when you're getting your last gallon of paint for a job your finishing that you were forced to use big box store paint on.... You give them the exact colour code you need... They open the can when it comes off the shaker.... Show you the wet paint in the can....

"Would'ja like it a little darker?"


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

wayyy too many words for my way too short attention span. look, squirrel! 
and thanks for the tip of the hat, guys. I may not know everything but I've had enough feffing problems with darker colors (including BM colors) to realize that it's the technique that needed to be adjusted. and to answer the question that someone asked about the voc contents...I LOVE VOC's!! I like PAINT not STAINT. and yes, it affects color. and everything else also. I don't get it, the new low/no paint costs more, don't last as long, fade quicker, is a pain to work with sometimes but we pay more because it smells better? is more "ECO friendly"? this is stupid! with the amount of paper, tape, plastic, solvents, rags, etc. that we use and toss I couldn't care any less about latex "gassing off" for a couple of days, lasting a little longer, protecting a little better and all the other benefits of voc's. eh...job security I suppose.  i wan't extra voc's in mine please, with a side of Gluten and MSG.... to go.  lol


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> You know you're dealing with a big box store employee when you're getting your last gallon of paint for a job your finishing that you were forced to use big box store paint on.... You give them the exact colour code you need... They open the can when it comes off the shaker.... Show you the wet paint in the can....
> 
> "Would'ja like it a little darker?"


"Uh, no thanks bra. I just want it to match THE OTHER TWENTY GALLONS I'VE BOUGHT THIS WEEK!" Just can't manage to pull that one off with any regularity can they?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

lilpaintchic said:


> I don't get it, the new low/no paint costs more, don't last as long, fade quicker, is a pain to work with sometimes but we pay more because it smells better?


Actually the VOC free colorant systems that some companies are swapping to last longer and fade drastically slower than the older, VOC-heavy colorants did. Also, VOC content is not directly tied to smell. There can be stinky VOC-free paint and nearly odorless paint with VOC content.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> ....Also, VOC content is not directly tied to smell. There can be stinky VOC-free paint and nearly odorless paint with VOC content.



Ain't that the truth. Using Emerald for the first time in a while today. The first brush full almost choked me with the ammonia type smell. 

It's not that bad really, I'm just spoiled on Aura. 

This customer has a relative that works at SW and insisted on using it. Fine with me, it's nice to change it up every now and then. I'm just glad they didn't make us use Pro mar


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Actually the VOC free colorant systems that some companies are swapping to last longer and fade drastically slower than the older, VOC-heavy colorants did. Also, VOC content is not directly tied to smell. There can be stinky VOC-free paint and nearly odorless paint with VOC content.


The one application where we've seen low-VOC paints dramatically underperform is on interior high-wear situations. 

But fading sooner? Not at all, at least in our experience. I just went by a huge house that we re-stained with Arborcoat 4 years ago. Past stain jobs on it have typically had a recoat cycle of about that long, due to fading. With the GENNEX colorants, this job has held its color amazingly well. I think we could probably touch up without an issue.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> The one application where we've seen low-VOC paints dramatically underperform is on interior high-wear situations.


Aye, there's certainly no panacea to every challenge paint faces; all we can hope for is that the industry is trending in the right direction.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Aye, there's certainly no panacea to every challenge paint faces; all we can hope for is that the industry is trending in the right direction.


How many points for panacea. It's been word of the day before i believe.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Aye, there's certainly no panacea to every challenge paint faces; all we can hope for is that the industry is trending in the right direction.


And i disagree completely! Marquee man. Marquee! It does it all remember!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> It's been word of the day before i believe.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PACman said:


> How many points for panacea. It's been word of the day before i believe.


50 for the word. And 50 for correct context.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> In my experience, hatbanding is most often caused by different thickness applications or simply different texture between brush and roller, not due to directional painting.
> 
> But what do I know, I'm just the paint store sales guy.
> 
> ...


Oh, don't be all butt hurt about it. Lol. Lets take it outside and go paint some doors together...


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

lilpaintchic said:


> Oh, don't be all butt hurt about it. Lol. Lets take it outside and go paint some doors together...


Why would you think I'm butt hurt? I made a winky face and apologized for ruffling any feathers, just like you. Or were you butt hurt in your post? I'm confused.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Why would you think I'm butt hurt? I made a winky face and apologized for ruffling any feathers, just like you. Or were you butt hurt in your post? I'm confused.


Yes, I'm butthurt. I needed a double winky face and maybe a flower or somethin.I'm super sensitive, ya know...  ;p


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Yes, I'm butthurt. I needed a double winky face and maybe a flower or somethin.I'm super sensitive, ya know...  ;p


here you go


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

chrisn said:


> here you go


Awwww...you're so kind!


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