# 18th Century Door Refinishing



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

This one is going to be interesting to say the least. These very old doors came out of a castle somewhere in Europe. This is part of an ongoing project being done hourly. 

The customer wants these doors "stripped and refinished". The back door is no big deal. I suspect its been restored sometime in the past, and only appears to have several layers of failing spar on it. We started stripping it this afternoon and its going well. 

The front doors are a different story. They appear to have several layers of a very dark, high solids coating of some kind. The wood is very worn and deeply grooved, but still solid and very hard. Its obviously some kind of old growth hard wood. Lead testing was negative, so whatever has been applied to it over the years apparently didn't include leaded varnish. 

I really don't know how I should go about this. A chem strip and sanding like we're doing on the back door just doesn't seem appropriate. 

I've considered spraying the stripper on and (low) pressure washing it off. Or perhaps sand blasting the doors. The carved details on the doors are by no means delicate, this is some very hard wood. Part of the work will possibly include filling the deep groves and cracks in the wood at the bottoms of the doors, and wood graining these areas to match the rest.

Here are some pics of the front doors. Any ideas, experience, suggestions welcome. TIA.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

This is the back door, its pretty a straight forward strip and finish job.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

When we refinished intricately-detailed doors, we use water-rinsable MeCl strippers and planer shavings. We give the stripper plenty of time to dissolve the old coatings and then, wearing chemical-resistant gloves, "scrub" off the stripper and finish with handfuls of the shavings. The shavings soak up the slurry and act as an abrasive to scour the finish out of the details. Typically, that leaves a little bit of work with a parts-cleaning brush to get the last of the sawdust/ stripper/finish out of some of the fine detail. A quick water rinse finishes the process. 

We make a point to do this outside, but under cover, if at all possible.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Don't sand blast talcum power blast it if you go that route. Sand will pit the crap out of the wood.

First choice chem strip

second choice talcum powder

3rd choice run like the wind.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

By the way those doors look amazing. The detailing is incredible. I can't wait to see the finished product.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Those are amazing. When you half way threw them and cursing, just think that some of us will be painting behind a toilet somewhere. Awesome gig, can't wait for after pics!


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## Masters Tile & Paint (Dec 30, 2009)

I know for older projects there are some companies that can chem dip the entire door and remove all the finishes down to raw wood. Im in a historical area and have a couple people that have taken old lumber in and had this done. Dont know if those doors look worth removing though.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Masters Tile & Paint said:


> I know for older projects there are some companies that can chem dip the entire door and remove all the finishes down to raw wood. Im in a historical area and have a couple people that have taken old lumber in and had this done. Dont know if those doors look worth removing though.




My uncle used to bring stuff to an old furniture plant. They literally had an open vat you could dip things into for stripping


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

We used Peel Away to strip these details.































A bit unpleasant to work with.
Very effective.
I'd definitely pull the doors as suggested previously.
Good luck!
Looking forward to seeing the finished product, especially the minor repairs.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Maybe the scale of these doors isn't apparent from the first pics. They are fairly narrow (57"), but they are 14.5' tall and about 4" thick. I shudder to think what one of them weighs, or what would be involved in reinstalling them. 

Right now we are only doing the exteriors so leaving them up seems the thing to do in this case. 

Did a test area this morning. Power sanded some of the finish off, then applied the stripper. After that, a wire brush took most of it off the flat area I tested. 

This isn't going to be so bad to do manually. Think I was a little overwhelmed at first, but now that its happening I can see how its going to go I think. 

I got some cedar chips to try Gough's method on the details.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

I like the chip/sawdust idea. Be sure and let us know how you like it.


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

We use metal bristle "toothbrushes" to really clean the pores out. I suggest after stripping with a water-rinse MC stripper, and after the wood is dry, try scrubbing again with a water/vinegar mix to really clean it up.
The doors are wonderful , by the way.
www.RefinishNY.com


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

The wood chips did help. The main benefit I got from it was saving the brushes from getting clogged up so fast. Without it, a brass or steel detail brush lasts about one minute before being totally gummed up with slurry. Using the chips helped that a lot.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Oh my, that looks awesome!
What are your plans for the heavy checking?
Thanks for the follow up on the chips/dust.:thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I swear, this guy will do anything for votes:glare:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Oh my, that looks awesome!
> What are your plans for the heavy checking?
> Thanks for the follow up on the chips/dust.:thumbsup:


That's not heavy checking...that's *patina!*.


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## bbair (Nov 18, 2012)

An orbital and some 60 grit oughta do the trick, lol


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Gough said:


> That's not heavy checking...that's *patina!*.


:blink:
I thought it looked like the early stages of what's going on in pic #3 of the OP. Especially on the 2nd band below the detail. 

Unless, of course you're pulling my chain.....:thumbsup:


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Monstertruck said:


> What are your plans for the heavy checking?
> :




I don't know yet exactly. The checking at the top below the details, didn't appear to be so bad until it was stripped. 

My first thought was to partially fill the less drastic checking with several coats of Sikkens L&S, and perhaps use an epoxy filer in places around the bottoms. But, the customer isn't buying into the Sikkens idea. She saw it used somewhere else and thinks it looks "plasticky and fake". They want to use Old Masters and Mccloskeys Man-O-War spar. Stain color will likely be special walnut. 

Some of the worst checking was previously filled with what looks like a dark urethane caulk. 

I would appreciate any suggestions for a filler.


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

Smith's CPES-


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> :blink:
> I thought it looked like the early stages of what's going on in pic #3 of the OP. Especially on the 2nd band below the detail.
> 
> Unless, of course you're pulling my chain.....:thumbsup:


Who, me??


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've gotten to know this fellow pretty well over the past few days. I like him, but his personal hygiene isn't the best. So, I brushed his teeth and gave him a bath (in thinner):jester: 


This door is from a later period than the front doors, mid 19'th century. Its almost ready for finish.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

I want those doors. Could you imagine having those bad boys on your house? Way better than fancy TVs and cars


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've gotten to know this fellow pretty well over the past few days. I like him, but his personal hygiene isn't the best. So, I brushed his teeth and gave him a bath (in thinner):jester:
> 
> 
> This door is from a later period than the front doors, mid 19'th century. Its almost ready for finish.


 Yeah Baby!
You cleaned that up nice!:thumbup:
Not my style, but the detail is awesome!!!:notworthy:
Can't wait to see the finished product.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Doors look great.

Curiosity. How would one remove the fastener stains in wood like that?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Csheils said:


> Doors look great.
> 
> Curiosity. How would one remove the fastener stains in wood like that?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com



I was wondering if an Oxalic acid would do it. It usually does pretty good with rust stains.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> I don't know yet exactly. The checking at the top below the details, didn't appear to be so bad until it was stripped.
> 
> My first thought was to partially fill the less drastic checking with several coats of Sikkens L&S, and perhaps use an epoxy filer in places around the bottoms. But, the customer isn't buying into the Sikkens idea. She saw it used somewhere else and thinks it looks "plasticky and fake". They want to use Old Masters and Mccloskeys Man-O-War spar. Stain color will likely be special walnut.
> 
> ...


I've used this filler on projects that were painted. I see they have pigmen available for tinting on projects to be stained.
http://www.abatron.com/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance.html


Looks like Old Masters has some putty sticks that would match the stain you're using and fill the smaller cracks.
http://www.myoldmasters.com/products-touchup-putty-stick.htm

Are you comfortable with the finishing products the HO has requested?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> I've used this filler on projects that were painted. I see they have pigmen available for tinting on projects to be stained.
> http://www.abatron.com/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance.html
> 
> 
> ...


I'd certainly press for an alternative to spar...unless you really want steady work. They thing Sikkens looks plasticky and fake, but want to use spar??? I have a hunch they've only seen Sikkens overdone. 

I'd steer them towards using Sikkens Door and Window...and not filling the cracks. They are amazing old doors, let them be old doors. The huge advantage of the Sikkens is in the maintenance.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

I've never been a big fan of allowing HO's to select products without consultation.:no:
My initial response is 'well, that looks like some good stuff, but I've never used it, so I will not guarantee it.' Then put it in writing.:yes:

I sort of like the idea of leaving the checking for character.
As long as they can be sealed properly to prevent further damage.
I hope there is some sort of stoop protecting these from the weather.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Monstertruck said:


> I've used this filler on projects that were painted. I see they have pigmen available for tinting on projects to be stained.
> http://www.abatron.com/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationmaintenance.html
> 
> Looks like Old Masters has some putty sticks that would match the stain you're using and fill the smaller cracks.
> ...



That filler system seems to be in the same product family as the Smith's CPS recommended earlier in the thread, and the End Rot system that I was looking at. They all seem to be geared toward restoring wood that has started to rot by first applying an epoxy hardener, then the filler. The fillers seem to be designed to bond best when the hardener is used first, though a guy at BM that I trust thinks the End Rot filler would work well on its own. 

The wood that the front doors are made of is....weird. It's not tight grained, in fact the grain is rather large. But it is probably the hardest wood I have ever encountered. Even down towards the bottoms, the wood shows no signs of rot, it's hard as a rock already. 

After some sampling and further discussion, I think I'm going to get my way on the Sikkens, except I'll use the 123 system instead of L&S. I agree that the L&S can look different than traditional penetrating stains, it doesn't penetrate as deeply. The Cetol 1 is a penetrator, so I can get the richer look and still have the high solids I want in the 23. I'll use the Mccloskeys on the back door.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> That filler system seems to be in the same product family as the Smith's CPS recommended earlier in the thread, and the End Rot system that I was looking at. *They all seem to be geared toward restoring wood that has started to rot by first applying an epoxy hardener, then the filler. The fillers seem to be designed to bond best when the hardener is used first,* though a guy at BM that I trust thinks the End Rot filler would work well on its own.
> 
> The wood that the front doors are made of is....weird. It's not tight grained, in fact the grain is rather large. But it is probably the hardest wood I have ever encountered. Even down towards the bottoms, the wood shows no signs of rot, it's hard as a rock already.
> 
> After some sampling and further discussion, I think I'm going to get my way on the Sikkens, except I'll use the 123 system instead of L&S. I agree that the L&S can look different than traditional penetrating stains, it doesn't penetrate as deeply. The Cetol 1 is a penetrator, so I can get the richer look and still have the high solids I want in the 23. I'll use the Mccloskeys on the back door.


That's how I've always done it, with good results. I think both the hardener and filler would impact how the surrounding wood accepts the stain. Unfortunately, I've only done painted projects with these fillers.

Looking forward to finished pics! :rubs hands with glee:
Might make for some great marketing material on your web site as well.:thumbup:


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Gough said:


> I'd certainly press for an alternative to spar...unless you really want steady work. They thing Sikkens looks plasticky and fake, but want to use spar??? I have a hunch they've only seen Sikkens overdone.
> 
> I'd steer them towards using Sikkens Door and Window...and not filling the cracks. They are amazing old doors, let them be old doors. The huge advantage of the Sikkens is in the maintenance.



I would Really hate to put spar on the front doors. They are on the south west side of the house, and even though they do sit back in a recess, they get sun all afternoon. The back door only gets a few hrs of morning sun, so it shouldn't be too bad if maintained regularly. They already have the Mccloskeys, so using it on the back door only is a good compromise. 

Crack filling is going to be minimal. Sanding has reduced the checking a great deal already. I'll probably only fill some of the deeper cracks at the bottoms, and build up a few corners that are chipped. I did a test area with Minwax epoxy filler with some sanding dust from the doors mixed in. I'm sure I'll have to get creative to blend in the filled spots, but they will be small.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> I was wondering if an Oxalic acid would do it. It usually does pretty good with rust stains.



Same here. Open to suggestions.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

And what's wrong with using spar?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Csheils said:


> And what's wrong with using spar?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


In exposed locations, it's a maintenance headache. For unprotected doors and trim around here, we recommend sanding and re-coating at least once a year, preferably twice. For doors as elaborate as those in the OP, the result of deferring that maintenance is obvious.

That's why we encourage clients to use something like Sikkens Door and Window for those applications.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Csheils said:


> And what's wrong with using spar?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com



It can be fine if its done regularly and doesn't get too much sun. But I've found that it doesn't hold up to UVs nearly as well as the Sikkens. Spar tends to get brittle and crack in a fairly short time in high exposure areas, and it happens fast. 
It can look fine after a year, then all the sudden within a few weeks or a month it will start to crack. Once that happens, the underlying stain fades quickly and your back to stripping. 

The back door that I'm working on now had failed spar on it when I started. Even though it only gets morning sun, it had been neglected too long and was completely cracked and peeled on the exposed areas.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> It can be fine if its done regularly and doesn't get too much sun. But I've found that it doesn't hold up to UVs nearly as well as the Sikkens. Spar tends to get brittle and crack in a fairly short time in high exposure areas, and it happens fast.
> It can look fine after a year, then all the sudden within a few weeks or a month it will start to crack. Once that happens, the underlying stain fades quickly and your back to stripping.
> 
> The back door that I'm working on now had failed spar on it when I started. Even though it only gets morning sun, it had been neglected too long and was completely cracked and peeled on the exposed areas.


Gough & JMays got it right. Spar is a maintenance headache. Once it goes, the ensuing prep is just a PITA.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Csheils said:


> Same here. Open to suggestions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Those are tough to get rid of. I have had success with naval jelly before where it cleared up some stains great and other projects where it didn't have any effect at all. It is worth a shot though IMHO.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

So spar needs maintenance. But in that regard, it does not differ from other coatings. 

Clears are easy to apply, although I wouldn't want to be re-applying biannually to doors like those. 

Is that the general consensus?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I grabbed some Naval jelly from the shop this morning, think I'll give it a try. Never used it on wood before. 

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on using Oxalic acid on wood that old? Or even just on hardwoods like mahogany? It seems to be most effective on softer woods like cedar. I still think it might be worth a shot, a strong mix and a scrub might help.


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

the point of using Spar varnish- which is a long oil varnish- is that it stays flexible, and can move with the wood as the wood expands and contracts. A good spar should not become brittle.
Try Epifanes or Interlux- these are vastly superior to Helmsman and other less expensive brands. ( Epifanes goes for around $125 a gal.)
But definitely first seal the wood with Smith's CPES.
I've used this system and have had finishes last 8 years and longer here in NY.But - the one priviso- you can't just coat it and forget it!
The UV blockers/absorbers in the finish are sacrificial- they degrade over time as they protect the woodwork from the effects of the sun; they must be replenished to continue working.
A simple scuff and recoat when the surface starts to dull or get hazy is what is then needed.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I grabbed some Naval jelly from the shop this morning, think I'll give it a try. Never used it on wood before.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on using Oxalic acid on wood that old? Or even just on hardwoods like mahogany? It seems to be most effective on softer woods like cedar. I still think it might be worth a shot, a strong mix and a scrub might help.


Oxylic acid is awesome for removing stains, etc. don't let it sit for too long because it'll turn the door a pinky red. I really liked the brush method of applying it. Keep a hose close by, keep it wet for a good 30-60 mins, then rinse thoroughly.

if I remember correctly it stings a little if you get it on your skin, maybe wear goggles or glasses so you don't get it in your eyes.



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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Oxylic acid is awesome for removing stains, etc. don't let it sit for too long because it'll turn the door a pinky red. I really liked the brush method of applying it. Keep a hose close by, keep it wet for a good 30-60 mins, then rinse thoroughly.
> 
> if I remember correctly it stings a little if you get it on your skin, maybe wear goggles or glasses so you don't get it in your eyes.
> 
> ...


Maybe wear goggles?? From the MSDS for Oxalic Acid:

"EYE CONTACT
Immediately flush with plenty of water for up to 15 minutes. Remove any contact lenses and open eyes wide apart. Get medical attention immediately. Continue to rinse."

Goggles seem like a good idea.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, I would hate to get that stuff in my eyes. Its really not too bad to use though, it reacts to wood more than anything else. 

Just rinsed the acid off the back door, drying it with a fan. I can already tell it helped with the overall look, minimal improvement on the fastener stains though. The Naval jelly didn't do much, but I was afraid to let it sit on the wood very long. 

I'm going to have to stop piddling with this door pretty soon and get some product on. Hope to wash the fronts this afternoon.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> Maybe wear goggles?? From the MSDS for Oxalic Acid:
> 
> "EYE CONTACT
> Immediately flush with plenty of water for up to 15 minutes. Remove any contact lenses and open eyes wide apart. Get medical attention immediately. Continue to rinse."
> ...


Goggles are for the weak and lame. Real painters don't need that PPE garbage. We smoke while spaying oil Dryfall thinned with gasoline 

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## Twpaint (Jul 10, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Goggles are for the weak and lame. Real painters don't need that PPE garbage. We smoke while spaying oil Dryfall thinned with gasoline  Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app


Lol those real painters are 6 feet underground


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I gotta give props to Gough again for the wood shavings suggestion. Now that I've kinda got the hang of it, I wonder how I ever did not do it. It makes chem stripping so much less messy/gooey. 

Compared to the other two, this is regular boring old oak door. Its definitely an antique, but newer looking than either of the other ones. Today could possible be the last day of chemical stripping. I'm ready for that part to be over for sure.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

My hat is off to you for taking something like this on. 

Anything from the 1700's would induce me to recommend they hire a restoration specialist who is familiar with the finishes of that period and how to remove them without negatively affecting the wood.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

RH said:


> My hat is off to you for taking something like this on.
> 
> Anything from the 1700's would induce me to recommend they hire a restoration specialist who is familiar with the finishes of that period and how to remove them without negatively affecting the wood.



I don't think you could harm that wood with a sledge hammer 

But seriously, 'restoration' really isn't the right word for what I'm doing. I'm only restoring the front doors in the sense of giving them a face lift and a fresh coating. Trying to preserve them as a functioning door that gets a lot of afternoon sun. 

What I found after getting into that front one was that it had already, not too long ago, been coated with Sikkens. And extensive filling had been done on parts of the detail. The owners only bought the place five months ago, an they thought the door was 'ugly' I suppose.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmays,

You really did a great job prepping that door. I was wondering, in the case of an antique door that requires a natural wood appearance, would it be beneficial to just apply a stain, or stain finish that will have an expectation of a maintenance coat every two to three years, verses applying a film forming coating like a varnish or polyurethane? 

Forgive my ignorance when it comes to wood finishing. Not a strong point of mine.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> they thought the door was 'ugly' I suppose.


Anyone that could possibly think those doors are ugly is clearly insane and should be feared from a distance. They are absolutely stunning and you're obviously pretty brave to have taken that project on. I'd be absolutely terrified to even touch those things, much less do anything you've described.

Giving those things the facelift you've described is so far out of my league it's not funny.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

It has certainly been a challenge. One of the cooler jobs I have had the opportunity to do. 

Friday would have been the last day on the front doors, but there was too much humidity for application. We've got it tented to keep rain and sun off of it, but couldn't do anything about the humidity. One more coat and its done. The customer loves it, its more solid looking now (as far as checking) with more exposed wood grain. As it was, the finish was so thick that it almost completely covered the wood. 

I'll get some pics soon after we get the tent down. 

I might not have taken it on if the scope of work had been different. As it was, I felt confident I could achieve the goals stated. As cool as it was, I'll be glad when its over. Too much time each day wearing a respirator.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Thats sweet! The marbling reminds me of some prized shotgun stocks!


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've been trying to think of the word for when they cut wood across the grain. I keep wanting to say 'burled' but that's not right. 

What is it called when wood is cut like this?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've been trying to think of the word for when they cut wood across the grain. I keep wanting to say 'burled' but that's not right.
> 
> What is it called when wood is cut like this?


Quartersawn. The "stripes" are medullary rays.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medullary_ray_(botany)


We actually had a client take us to task for the ray fleck on some new oak door frames. She was convinced that we had messed up and accidentally wiped off all of the stain to make that pattern. I'm still not sure she bought my explanation.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

What an amazing project. The thread made for a good read on timber restoration and trick and tips along the way.


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