# Bonding adhesive?



## dan_s (Dec 20, 2013)

Got a friend that has some peeling in a few areas of his house, 1 room has some ceiling areas and another has ceiling with a spot in the walls, all about 10" in diameter. There doesn't appear to be an issue with water, no staining or visible leaks when he was in the attic the last week or so. The areas are where plaster has delaminated from the concrete substrate that is attached to the lathe. I have an old timer that I refer my plaster work to, because he has 40 years experience, but I want to try and experiment on his place. My friend is cool with a tailight warranty since he will be paying me in frosty beverages, and saving $$$.

I have seen repairs in the past, and know how to float compound well enough for this application. My question is do I need to put a bonding adhesive on the concrete looking area first. I was going to do one coat of durabond and top with 2-3 more of easy sand after that, PVA prime and paint. I have watched the mudders put a pink liquid on the area after cutting the loose stuff off. Is there a bonding agent that will work for all applications, or do I need to know the type of plaster used (I'm not aware if there are many different kinds). 

Any help would be great.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Pink*



dan_s said:


> Got a friend that has some peeling in a few areas of his house, 1 room has some ceiling areas and another has ceiling with a spot in the walls, all about 10" in diameter. There doesn't appear to be an issue with water, no staining or visible leaks when he was in the attic the last week or so. The areas are where plaster has delaminated from the concrete substrate that is attached to the lathe. I have an old timer that I refer my plaster work to, because he has 40 years experience, but I want to try and experiment on his place. My friend is cool with a tailight warranty since he will be paying me in frosty beverages, and saving $$$.
> 
> I have seen repairs in the past, and know how to float compound well enough for this application. My question is do I need to put a bonding adhesive on the concrete looking area first. I was going to do one coat of durabond and top with 2-3 more of easy sand after that, PVA prime and paint. I have watched the mudders put a pink liquid on the area after cutting the loose stuff off. Is there a bonding agent that will work for all applications, or do I need to know the type of plaster used (I'm not aware if there are many different kinds).
> 
> Any help would be great.


The pink liquid you refer to is either Larsen's Plaster Weld or USG Plaster Bonder. This pink glue will stick to the surface you want to skim. After you apply the pink stuff and let it dry, the water in the Durabond or Easy Sand will reactivate the pink glue to help whatever you are skim coating with th adhere to the ceiling or wall.

If it were me, I would smoosh on a heavy coat of Gardz as it is thin and will soak into the material you are seeking to skim over, hardening it in the process. I would want this as the material that did not come off is probably in the process of degrading as well. The thin Gardz might act like a wood hardener that is thin and soaks into soft, decayed wood and hardens so that it is now stronger and more workable. I suppose you could apply some pink glue over the area you have Gardzed, but if you skim first with Durabond, I believe that the Durabond will provide a "durable bond", hence the name Durabond! If you drop a glob of Easy Sand on a floor and let it dry, you can generally take a taping knife and scrape it right off the floor. If you drop a glob of Durabond and let it dry it will stick like glue to the floor and you might damage your spackling knife trying to scrape it.

I am no expert on plastering, but in my mind, the Gardz will provide more strength to the material you are going to skim over than the pink glue will as the pink glue is thicker and will tend to stay on the surface. If you want to keep the refreshments coming, I would first use Gardz, then do the pink, then first coat with Durabond, then Easy Sand the rest of the way. Just make sure not to overfill so you can minimize your sanding. You really don't want to have to sand Durabond!

If it is all little spots less than 10" in diameter, I would skip the pink. 

When your buddy was in the attic, did he notice any damage or crumbling of the concrete keys going up through the wood lathe? If so, you will need more help than I am qualified to give, although I recently did a 3' x 5' section in a plaster ceiling where I cleared out as much loose plaster, re-nailed all the lathe to the studs, secured the outer areas of plaster with plaster washers, screwed in a section of drywall, then filled all the gaps between the drywall and the plaster with Durabond. I made sure to push enough Durabond so that it would squeeze up and through the wood lathe to produce new keys. Skimmmed it over with Durabond, then Easy Sand, another coat of Gardz, 2 coats of paint feathered into the other half of the rolling ceiling that looks to be the next area to start coming down. Did this in 8/2016, just saw it a 2 weeks ago and no cracks, even though I didn't use any tape. Good luck.

futtyos


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Do an advanced search here for the keyword, "calcimine". Your plan of attack I guess will depend upon your friend's expectations. Still, I'd read up as much as possible on calcimine so that you can educate your fried as far as the end result. There's lots of good info tucked away here on PT on calcimine though...IF you can find it.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Good advice from Troy. When you click on the search tab, use the google search option. The regular search option is garbage. I doubt it could even find "paint".


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*More Ovaltine, Please!*



dan_s said:


> Got a friend that has some peeling in a few areas of his house, 1 room has some ceiling areas and another has ceiling with a spot in the walls, all about 10" in diameter. There doesn't appear to be an issue with water, no staining or visible leaks when he was in the attic the last week or so. The areas are where plaster has delaminated from the concrete substrate that is attached to the lathe. I have an old timer that I refer my plaster work to, because he has 40 years experience, but I want to try and experiment on his place. My friend is cool with a tailight warranty since he will be paying me in frosty beverages, and saving $$$.
> 
> I have seen repairs in the past, and know how to float compound well enough for this application. My question is do I need to put a bonding adhesive on the concrete looking area first. I was going to do one coat of durabond and top with 2-3 more of easy sand after that, PVA prime and paint. I have watched the mudders put a pink liquid on the area after cutting the loose stuff off. Is there a bonding agent that will work for all applications, or do I need to know the type of plaster used (I'm not aware if there are many different kinds).
> 
> Any help would be great.


dan_s, after reading Troy and Wildbill's comments, I re-read your post to see if you were describing problems with plaster or with calcimine. As I understand it, calcimine is a cheap wall finish that was to be used more as a wash than a paint, and more frquently applied as well.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/calcimine

http://plasterlord.com/notebook/cures-for-calcimine-ceilings/

You seem to be describing something different. You said "The areas are where plaster has delaminated from the concrete substrate that is attached to the lathe." As I understand it, the "concrete substrate" you mention would be the scratch coat that goes on first and is supposed to be pushed through the wood lathe, thus creating "keys" on the other side of the lathe that physically hold this scratch coat against the lathe from both sides. I have seen scratch coats that look like sand and sometimes come apart like old mortar between bricks. When the scratch coat comes apart and turns into sand - I don't think this is a good thing. If this is the case, you might want to get better advice here, or go to a plastering forum (which is what I would do).

What I am picturing is that the top layer or layers of smooth plaster are delaminating from the coarse, sand-like scratch coat. If this is the case, it doesn't seem like you would be having a calcimine surface problem, but rather a structural plaster-layer problem. 

Perhaps you could post some photos?

phottyos


----------



## dan_s (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks for the response. The "concrete substrate" as I called it, is indeed the the scratch coat. I didn't think to go and check on the keys and know exactly what you are talking about. And of course I don't have any pictures. 
Futtyos is correct in what you are picturing. The smooth layers of plastering are delaminating in chips, like lead paint would on exterior wood siding. The scratch coat is intact. This is where I usually recommend a plasterer, and especially if the scratch coat is crack/seperating form the lathe. But again, I'd like to try and learn to add another tool to my arsenal. I won't be taking on major plaster work, just "small" less involved jobs.
I will search calcimine Troy and thanks for the search tidbit as well. There is a wealth of info here, but seems to be a pain to find sometimes. I have a few days of recovery ahead of me from a small surgery, so I will try and read as much as possible.


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Here is a good example of scratch coating, even if it's for a wall and stucco.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

futtyos said:


> dan_s, after reading Troy and Wildbill's comments, I re-read your post to see if you were describing problems with plaster or with calcimine. As I understand it, calcimine is a cheap wall finish that was to be used more as a wash than a paint, and more frquently applied as well.
> 
> http://www.dictionary.com/browse/calcimine
> 
> ...


Phottyos......LOLOL. clever...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Do an advanced search here for the keyword, "calcimine". Your plan of attack I guess will depend upon your friend's expectations. Still, I'd read up as much as possible on calcimine so that you can educate your fried as far as the end result. There's lots of good info tucked away here on PT on calcimine though...IF you can find it.


If calcimine is present any paint will cause it to fail, at least any water-based product that I'm aware of! This will not happen in one or two spots, it usually occurs with the calcimine pulling large sheets of paint off. Ask me how I know this.:sad:


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Brushman4 said:


> If calcimine is present any paint will cause it to fail, at least any water-based product that I'm aware of! This will not happen in one or two spots, it usually occurs with the calcimine pulling large sheets of paint off. Ask me how I know this.:sad:


Since we didn't have enough info or pics, I suggested he search calcimine, since that's about the only thing that could potentially throw him for a loop. Rather than asking a myriad of questions and awaiting a reply, my recommendation was for expedience and simplicity. A newer, faster me. And much, much lazier.


----------



## dan_s (Dec 20, 2013)

*Pictures*

Hopefully here are some pictures, this is the first ones I have loaded. 10" may have been an underestimation, but my wife would say I think things are bigger than they are


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Thanks for the optical illusion!*



dan_s said:


> Hopefully here are some pictures, this is the first ones I have loaded. 10" may have been an underestimation, but my wife would say I think things are bigger than they are


dan_s, those are interesting photos! The top photo looks like some stuff lying about an 1/8" off the surroinding surface. The lower photo show a ceiling and partial wall from a sideways perspective that has 2 areas on the ceiling where material is missing. The lower roundish area helps keep an indented perspective for viewing the top indented area. Otherwise, I was seeing the depression in reverse. I actually called someone else to look at these photos to make sure my eyes weren't going wonky.

When I look at the top photo and tilt my head to the right, the figure looks like its on top of the surface, but when I tilt my head to the left I feel like I'm in love for the first time in my life! Uh, I mean the figure looks like a depression inside the surrounding surface. Whew!

I can also see some shadowing of nearby areas where the top layer of plaster is starting to buckle. If you decide to take on some repair work on this ceiling you might want to cut away the loosening plaster from some of these buckling areas and skim them as you might the larger areas.

From what I see in the photos, you might not even be down to the scratch coat, but just down to the middle coat (whatever it is called). If this is the case, I would think that this is better than it being all the way down to the scratch coat. 

A couple of questions, please?

1. How old is this house and what area of what country is it in?

2. What floor is this ceiling on?

3. Assuming that this photo was taken of the ceiling just under the attic, is there any insulation between the attic floor and the ceiling?

(The reason I ask is I might have a job coming up with potentially similar problems.)

If I were doing this, I would cut away all the loose plaster that you feel comfortable cutting away, then sand the surrounding surfaces to get nubs off prior to spackling. If any of the exposed plaster looks shiny, I would sand it with 60 grit or less to score the surface. Next I would apply a generous coat of Gardz and let dry thoroughly. Then I would skim coat it with Durabond, taking care to NOT overfill the depressions, and let dry over night. Scrape the nubs off the Durabonded surfaces with a spackling knife (I have an 8" knife I do this with that has become so sharp I can shave with it! Actually, no, but I can and have seriously cut myself with the edge as the constant use of shaving DB has made it VERY SHARP!), then skim with a couple coats of Easy Sand, let dry, then coat with Gardz, then paint.

I don't think you have to worry about applying Plater Weld or USG Plaster Bond as the Gardz should do the job for such small areas as you will have. Also, Durabond will glue itself to most anything you put it on.

One more point of curiosity: if you get a chance and have the lighting and perspective to take such a photo, see if you can get a photo of the ceiling with really good exterior lighting at an angle that might show any irregularities in the ceiling surface. I am wondering if the ceiling will show bowing between the studs. We had a thread here recently where someone had photos of plastered walls/ceilings and a few days later I was able to take photos of a plastered ceiling that had bowing out between studs.

Here are photos of what I am talking about:


----------



## dan_s (Dec 20, 2013)

futtyos said:


> dan_s, those are interesting photos! The top photo looks like some stuff lying about an 1/8" off the surroinding surface. The lower photo show a ceiling and partial wall from a sideways perspective that has 2 areas on the ceiling where material is missing. The lower roundish area helps keep an indented perspective for viewing the top indented area. Otherwise, I was seeing the depression in reverse. I actually called someone else to look at these photos to make sure my eyes weren't going wonky.
> 
> When I look at the top photo and tilt my head to the right, the figure looks like its on top of the surface, but when I tilt my head to the left I feel like I'm in love for the first time in my life! Uh, I mean the figure looks like a depression inside the surrounding surface. Whew!
> 
> ...


Like I said, first photo posted. After refreshing the browser a few times and not seeing the post with pics, I got worried that I did it wrong. But alas, I managed to upload the pics sideways. It doesn't help that the crown moulding was installed against the ceiling/wall angle like baseboard!?!:icon_confused:

To answer the questions.
1. The house is in Indianapolis, built in early 50's
2. It is a ranch
3. Not sure about the insulation situation, had my friend sent me the pic after I posted here, which as you can see is a little crooked.

I told him that more scraping would be necessary to get all the loose ends up. I have some guardz and Durabond on hand so Ill try your method. I know from experience not to put the DB on too thick, mucho headache trying to get that stuff sanded.

As for the natural lighting, there isn't much in that room. Your pics of that ceiling is exactly why I don't do much patch work/hanging/finishing in a room with a lot of windows. I try and know my limitations. The ceiling in that room and every other is not smooth, it has the plaster wave but isn't delaminating if that makes since. 

One more question, when is the plaster weld or USG plaster bond warranted vs using Gardz.


----------



## dan_s (Dec 20, 2013)

I did some reading here and on the net about calcimine after the suggestions and definitely believe that it is something I have ran into before. Usually I just prime areas that are peeling with cover stain, but think I will rethink that approach and use guardz from now on.

Attached, I think, is close up of a bathroom wall I looked at last week. The wall paint is bubbling. It is not an exterior wall. I originally thought that it is moisture, because when I was in the room it felt humid. I couldn't get into the attic at that point to confirm a leak. But with no staining i figured it wasn't a leak and the moisture is condensation based. I sent them a price to replace the exhaust fan, scrape the effect area, and paint the whole bathroom. I think that I need to add a step of sealing the entire painted surface.

House is built in the 30's. I have painted a few rooms in the house, but not this area. The peeling is a soft, and the area behind it is chaulky.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Palster glue v Gardz*



dan_s said:


> Like I said, first photo posted. After refreshing the browser a few times and not seeing the post with pics, I got worried that I did it wrong. But alas, I managed to upload the pics sideways. It doesn't help that the crown moulding was installed against the ceiling/wall angle like baseboard!?!:icon_confused:
> 
> To answer the questions.
> 1. The house is in Indianapolis, built in early 50's
> ...


dan_s, thanks for answers to my questions. As to Plaster Weld or USG Plaster Bonder (both are basically glues that dry, then reactivate when wet plaster or other such material is applied over it within about 10 days), I would say these are products that would be used when you are worried that a coat of plaster over a large area might otherwise come off. I paint for a GC who remodels condos at Marina Towers in Chicago. All the old ceilings and walls are plaster over concrete. The original surfaces were heavy orange-peeled. Most people in this area now want flat, flat surfaces, so the GC does a lot of skim coating. About a year ago he started having problems with Easy Sand coming off some areas of ceilings and walls. He asked me to buy a gallon of Elmer's Glue, mix it with a gallon of water and roll it onto such and such areas. He said it was an old plasterer's trick. I went home and did some research and found Plaster Weld was available in my area. It comes in 1 gallon paint can WITH NO HANDLE! USG (which is headquartered in Chicago) Plaster Bonder comes in a plastic jug with a handle - the same kind of container that auto antifreeze comes in - but is not available in the Chicago area!

http://www.larsenproducts.com/plaster-weld-2/

https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG..._assets/usg-plaster-bonder-submittal-P778.pdf

If I were doing a big skim coat job and was worried about adhesion, I would definitely consider using one of these products (as well as watch a bunch of Kirk Giordano videos on Youtube) as added insurance. Better yet, I might refer the job to a plasterer such as the guy you use.

For the type of repairs you are doing, I would say that a coat of Gardz over a cleaned out area, followed by a coat of Durabond will give you plenty of adhesion. As I have mentioned here before, try dropping globs of both Easy Sand and Durabond on a floor, let dry, then try to scrape up each with a spackle knife and see the difference in how well they each bond to the floor. The Easy Sand will come right up, but the Durabond will be rock hard and probably won't budge, even if it was dropped on a dusty surface. The TDS for both say that each are about 60 to 70% plaster. I believe that Durabond has more glue in it than Easy Sand and I guess that is why it is recommended as a first coat.

If the surfaces that you are going to spackle over are in good condition, I would think that all you need is Gardz and Durabond and Easy Sand over the Durabond if you like, but I have done repairs like this with just Durabond in several coats with minimum sanding, usually just a shave to get nubs with the spackle knife over all but the last coat which I might sand.

futtyos


----------

