# Deep base colours on furniture



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I've just done these dressers with the new "Command". Even though it's a pretty tough finish, I'm not convinced that it won't get scratched to heck because of the super dark colour. In hind sight I should have talked the client out of it. Thinking about throwing a clear coat on for good measure. Thoughts?


----------



## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I've just done these dressers with the new "Command". Even though it's a pretty tough finish, I'm not convinced that it won't get scratched to heck because of the super dark colour. In hind sight I should have talked the client out of it. Thinking about throwing a clear coat on for good measure. Thoughts?


If it performs the way it says it will you shouldn't have to. But to your point, I wish they had made a clear to go over it. I know Breakthrough has a clear.


----------



## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

It might not be done curing. I wouldn't put anything else on it for a couple of months. Those dark colours are always trouble, not matter what you use.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I agree with @Masterwork that waiting until it's fully cured is vital before putting anything else on top of it. Other than recording test results for hardness and comparing them to results from several days later, I wouldn't have any confidence as to when that full cure is though, given the fact that you're working with deep bases and a new product. I'd contact your rep or the manufacturer for insights as to cure time as well as product suggestions for clear coat, (if you go that route).

If you don't already, you might invest in a Pencil Hardness Test Kit when you can. Takes the guesswork out of it.
Good luck, and please keep us posted. Looks great, btw.


----------



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

I've been hearing about that Command, I don't think we have it here yet though. What did you think about it compared to say Advance? I know you use that stuff a bit. Was it as a runny as Advance? Is it supposed to be similar to breakthrough with the real fast drive time? I was sort of surprised when i first heard they were coming out with another one, because it seems like between scuff-x and advance they've already got two pretty good water-based finishes.


----------



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I agree with @Masterwork that waiting until it's fully cured is vital before putting anything else on top of it. Other than recording test results for hardness and comparing them to results from several days later, I wouldn't have any confidence as to when that full cure is though, given the fact that you're working with deep bases and a new product. I'd contact your rep or the manufacturer for insights as to cure time as well as product suggestions for clear coat, (if you go that route).
> 
> If you don't already, you might invest in a Pencil Hardness Test Kit when you can. Takes the guesswork out of it.
> Good luck, and please keep us posted. Looks great, btw.


Sounds pretty handy didn't know there was such a thing


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> It might not be done curing. I wouldn't put anything else on it for a couple of months. Those dark colours are always trouble, not matter what you use.





fromthenorthwest said:


> I've been hearing about that Command, I don't think we have it here yet though. What did you think about it compared to say Advance? I know you use that stuff a bit. Was it as a runny as Advance? Is it supposed to be similar to breakthrough with the real fast drive time? I was sort of surprised when i first heard they were coming out with another one, because it seems like between scuff-x and advance they've already got two pretty good water-based finishes.


Its more like breakthrough and in particular its marketed towards commercial, industrial and hospitality where a fast turn around time is needed and you can give a facility maintenance crew one paint to use on everything. I brushed a heavy sample and it was set up tack free within an hour.


----------



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thanks @cocomonkeynuts, good to know. Might need to give it a whirl when it gets up here


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I agree with @Masterwork that waiting until it's fully cured is vital before putting anything else on top of it. Other than recording test results for hardness and comparing them to results from several days later, I wouldn't have any confidence as to when that full cure is though, given the fact that you're working with deep bases and a new product. I'd contact your rep or the manufacturer for insights as to cure time as well as product suggestions for clear coat, (if you go that route).
> 
> If you don't already, you might invest in a Pencil Hardness Test Kit when you can. Takes the guesswork out of it.
> Good luck, and please keep us posted. Looks great, btw.


Although not always listed on the tech sheets, some manufacturers can provide pencil hardness, taber abrasion, Hoffman scratch, tensile strength, elongation at break, & impact resistance test results, along with KCMA chemical resistance ratings for a particular product. I’ve used them in the past for evaluating finishes as a specifier on new builds. It saved a lot of guess work and/or having to test the products myself, although I always did dry test runs before putting a new finish into production.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Although not always listed on the tech sheets, some manufacturers can provide pencil hardness, taber abrasion, Hoffman scratch, tensile strength, elongation at break, & impact resistance test results, along with KCMA chemical resistance ratings for a particular product. I’ve used them in the past for evaluating finishes as a specifier on new builds. It saved a lot of guess work and/or having to test the products myself, although I always did dry test runs before putting a new finish into production.


That would be really useful info. 

Just looked at the PDS for product I'm currently using, and no hardness or scratch ratings (etc...) to be found. 
Would they be listed somewhere aside from PDS?


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> That would be really useful info.
> 
> Just looked at the PDS for product I'm currently using, and no hardness or scratch ratings (etc...) to be found.
> Would they be listed somewhere aside from PDS?


They’re sometimes found on the regular PDS/TDS, and if not, they can often be obtained by contacting the manufacturer. 

Just for illustration purposes, I’ve included a link to a TDS by the Rustoleum Corp which includes a number of test results under the performance characteristics section:

https://www.rustoleum.ca/~/media/Di...ents/RustoleumCA/TDS/English/Interior-WB.ashx


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> They’re sometimes found on the regular PDS/TDS, and if not, they can often be obtained by contacting the manufacturer.
> 
> Just for illustration purposes, I’ve included a link to a TDS by the Rustoleum Corp which includes a number of test results under the performance characteristics section:
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.ca/~/media/Di...ents/RustoleumCA/TDS/English/Interior-WB.ashx


Thanks!
BTW - Is that a product you like?


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Thanks!
> BTW - Is that a product you like?


Not particularly...I used that as an example due to Rust Oleum providing test info on many of their products’ tech sheets..


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I've just done these dressers with the new "Command". Even though it's a pretty tough finish, I'm not convinced that it won't get scratched to heck because of the super dark colour. In hind sight I should have talked the client out of it. Thinking about throwing a clear coat on for good measure. Thoughts?


Looks good @finishesbykevyn.

Is it common to "clear" over painted cabinets?
Couple questions, as I am not familiar with Command, and do not have access to it here...

What kind of paint is Command?
What kind of clear would you spray over it?


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Looks good @finishesbykevyn.
> 
> Is it common to "clear" over painted cabinets?
> Couple questions, as I am not familiar with Command, and do not have access to it here...
> ...


Command is a unrethane acrylic. Best way I could describe it would be like a faster drying industrial version of cabinetcoat.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> They’re sometimes found on the regular PDS/TDS, and if not, they can often be obtained by contacting the manufacturer.
> 
> Just for illustration purposes, I’ve included a link to a TDS by the Rustoleum Corp which includes a number of test results under the performance characteristics section:
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.ca/~/media/Di...ents/RustoleumCA/TDS/English/Interior-WB.ashx


That's actually one if the the more detailed tds sheets I've seen in a while. Most are pretty basic.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Looks good @finishesbykevyn.
> 
> Is it common to "clear" over painted cabinets?
> Couple questions, as I am not familiar with Command, and do not have access to it here...
> ...


 No I don't normally clear coat my cabinets, but it does produce a waay tougher finish. Especially when using 1k product like Advance etc. Dark colours Especially. I've done some samples at my shop using Saman Clear. It's just an extra step and would obviously cost the client more money but a good option for deep tones. Imo.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Its more like breakthrough and in particular its marketed towards commercial, industrial and hospitality where a fast turn around time is needed and you can give a facility maintenance crew one paint to use on everything. I brushed a heavy sample and it was set up tack free within an hour.


Have you done any hardness testing after full cure, and if so, what were the results?
If you did, please also include the color used, since that info could also be useful for the OP as well as the rest of us.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I agree with @Masterwork that waiting until it's fully cured is vital before putting anything else on top of it. Other than recording test results for hardness and comparing them to results from several days later, I wouldn't have any confidence as to when that full cure is though, given the fact that you're working with deep bases and a new product. I'd contact your rep or the manufacturer for insights as to cure time as well as product suggestions for clear coat, (if you go that route).
> 
> If you don't already, you might invest in a Pencil Hardness Test Kit when you can. Takes the guesswork out of it.
> Good luck, and please keep us posted. Looks great, btw.


 Thanks Troy. Excuse my ignorance, but how is that little gadget $450?!Looks like a pencil holder with wheels..


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Thanks Troy. Excuse my ignorance, but how is that little gadget $450?!Looks like a pencil holder with wheels..


It's not ignorance. I thought the exact same thing when I first looked at em. The bulk of the money is for the actual pencil holder, and its job is to create a line at the exact same pressure & force every single time. Though it's ridiculously overpriced, the accuracy of your results using those pencils without the holder might be misleading. You could totally get by with just the set of pencils, which I think is just over $100. You'll just have to be cognizant of the importance of using the same amount of force while drawing lines by hand.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> It's not ignorance. I thought the exact same thing when I first looked at em. The bulk of the money is for the actual pencil holder, and its job is to create a line at the exact same pressure & force every single time. Though it's ridiculously overpriced, the accuracy of your results using those pencils without the holder might be misleading. You could totally get by with just the set of pencils, which I think is just over $100. You'll just have to be cognizant of the importance of using the same amount of force while drawing lines by hand.


set of pencils is $20 at any art store- h to hb to b

If you do happen into an art store, let them know I have some artwork for sale. Thanks.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> set of pencils is $20 at any art store- h to hb to b
> 
> If you do happen into an art store, let them know I have some artwork for sale. Thanks.


😅


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Did you end up "clearing" the cabinets?

A quick search online showed that there are actually a lot of "hardness testers" available...most other started around $500 and went up to something like $7000+ !!


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Did you end up "clearing" the cabinets?
> 
> A quick search online showed that there are actually a lot of "hardness testers" available...most other started around $500 and went up to something like $7000+ !!


 No i didn't clear them as I was short on time. Also, the finish appeared to actually dry very hard. Quite impressive really for a dark colour. Although I didn't do a pencil test. At that price I may never do one either!


----------

