# Paint issues



## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Painted two homes late last summer/early fall with Valspar Durumax. The first time I have used this product. One was a re-paint and one was new construction. 

The re-paint was hardie siding and fir soffits and porch ceilings. The existing paint was a dupont latex exterior flat paint. The house was cleaned with Jo-Max, rinsed, and then two coats of the Durumax exterior flat were applied. The temperature during the day was about 60-65F and the nights where 40-45F. The weather was dry for application and several days after. THe paint was brushed on siding and rolled on soffits. 

The second job was a new construction. The siding was cedar and the soffits where again a veneer fir. One coat of durumax was applied before install and the final coat was applied after installation. The paint was brushed on siding and rolled on soffits. The temperature and conditions were similar to the first scenario.

This week I recieved a call back and went over to the jobs. It has been almost 6 months before this started happening. All the siding and vertical elements look great but the soffits and porch ceilings are all showing thick white cloudy build up. It looks like efflorescence on concrete. I contacted Valspar and sent them pictures this was the response I recieved:

"It appears this problem is called *frosting. *This can occur on any paint color but it is less noticeable on white and light tinted colors. It looks like a salt substance on the surface. This forms mostly in protected areas such as (eaves and open porch ceilings). These areas do not receive the cleansing action of rain, dew and other moisture. The application of dark-colored paint over a paint or primer containing calcium carbonate extender is sometimes the cause. The best remedy is to remove frosting by wire brushing masonry or sanding the wood surface, rinse, then apply an alkyd-based primer before adding a coat of the paint. This information is from our Corporate Office."

I applied this product following the instructions. I did not apply a primer before using the product and the previous latex paint was not doing this so there explanation is bunk. Are they actually saying there paint needs to be "cleansed" by water periodically after it is applied???Any thoughts appreciated.


sorry I am in such a hurry trying to figure this out that I did not tell a little about myself...I am a licensed General Contractor for 10 years. I do a lot of remodeling and occasional new homes. I do all my own painting and not a single call back till now. thanks for any help


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Never heard of this problems but looked it up,

*Frosting*










A white, salt-like substance on the paint surface. Frosting can occur on any paint color, but it is less noticeable on white paint or lighter tints. On masonry, it can be mistaken for efflorescence (see Efflorescence and Mottling).
Possible causes


Forms mostly in protected areas (such as under eaves and on porch ceilings) that do not receive the cleansing action of rain, dew and other moisture.
Use of dark-colored paints that have been formulated with calcium carbonate extender.
Application of a dark-colored paint over a paint or primer containing calcium carbonate extender.
 Solution


Frosting can be a stubborn problem. It often cannot be washed off readily. Moreover, the condition can recur even as a bleed-through when a new top coat is applied. In extreme cases, it can interfere with adhesion. The best remedy is to remove the frosting by wirebrushing masonry or sanding wood surfaces; rinse, then apply an alkyd-based primer before adding a coat of high quality exterior paint.
http://www.realtor.com/home-garden/...blem-solver/painting-frosting.aspx?source=web


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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

thanks for the reply and link. So WTF. Durumax is a middle end-spendy product. I applied it strict accordance with the application instructions and it's failing. My guess is that durumax is loaded with calcium carbonate and it doesn't really cure properly at lower temps as advertised.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Search for Surfactant Leach


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## crazywasp (Dec 22, 2010)

Stick to paint stores, big boxes are good for disposables but never paint. Benny Mo is my fav, but will hit SWP for a couple product lines.

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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Notice how it doesn't occur around the hot dipped galvanized nail head in the second pic. And the siding is fine. This was painted late summer/early last fall and this "frosting" didn't start until after the winter this week.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Bender said:


> Search for Surfactant Leach


Am I the official search dude of Paint Talk??

Surfactant Leaching is the concentration of water-soluble ingredients on the surface of latex paints. It creates a blotchy, sometimes glossy appearance with a brownish or tan cast.
All latex-based paints contain some water-soluble ingredients, which are required for color, stability, and ease of application. Usually these water-soluble ingredients either evaporate, or they leach from the paint due to rain or dew. If latex-based paint is applied during cool and damp conditions, or when the temperature falls within 5° of the dew point, the drying is retarded and the ingredients come to the surface before the paint has had a chance to dry. Surfactant leaching can also be caused when dew or other moisture dries on the painted surface shortly after the paint has dried. Paints that are tinted using universal colorants are more prone to this condition than white or ready mixed colors because of the surfactants and glycols present not only in the paint, but also in the colorant. In most cases, surfactants come out of the paint film slowly and are washed away undetected. Surfactants are not part of the paint film and their migration from the film does no harm to the paint film whatsoever.
To prevent surfactant leaching, avoid application of latex-based paints in late afternoon and/or if cool, damp conditions are expected overnight.
Surfactant leaching can have a serious effect on the appearance of the project. 
If surfactant leaching is present in the first days after application, most often the water-soluble ingredients can be easily removed by simply washing the surface with a mild solution of soap and clean fresh water and rinsing with a fine mist from a garden hose. In some cases this process will not remove the residue. In this case, the residue should weather off in about a month. 

http://www.paintsource.net/tech_flash_coronado/surfactant_leaching.html


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

joe2 said:


> Notice how it doesn't occur around the hot dipped galvanized nail head in the second pic. And the siding is fine. This was painted late summer/early last fall and didn't start until after the winter this week.


Wonder if your best bet is to cover the ceiling with luan and then use an exterior solid stain?


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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Thanks. Yeah, I looked up the surfacants, but the frosting description seems to fit the appearance.

I'm probably going to try to lightly powerwash first or maybe srcub if needed to remove residue, rinse,let dry then prime with alkyd primer then repaint (not with durumax). That little porch isn't that big of a deal...it's the 250' + of soffit (including 2nd story stuff) that I'm not to stoked about. That is on a seperate job also with durumax. I did another house at the exact same time as that one with a sherwin williams paint...and those soffits aren't frosting.

Folks will probably say "yeah right" but I painted that ceiling in dry weather. The dew point was not reached that night after painting. It did get down in lower 40's that night but that paint is rated for 35-90 F applications. I watch the weather and forecast carefully when painting exteriors. 

I've used a lot of different paints and painted in those same conditions and have never had this problem. I've seen a ton of local yocal hacks paint 4 hours before it rains and I have never seen this happen. I guess that is all beside the point now though.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

Joe, I hear you, I HATE doing soffits. 

I have never seen frosting before. I suspect it's mostly the fault of the paint you used. We should be able to trust what's advertised and what's written on the can, but I only use the products that I've had success with-- I'm not too willing to branch out, especially on exteriors. 

If the repair is occurring at your cost you will do whatever you have to do, but a thorough sanding, followed by a wash and an alkyd primer should do the trick, as recommended.

In the future, I would stick to the products you know you can trust. For me that's 100% Acrylics from BM and PPG.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Rent a hotsy and pressure wash it.


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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

quick update. I received a call from someone at valspar who I could talk to about the issue. The suggested that if the residue could be removed that it would not return and if it does they are willing to work with me towards a resolution on the matter.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

crazywasp said:


> Stick to paint stores, big boxes are good for disposables but never paint. Benny Mo is my fav, but will hit SWP for a couple product lines.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


hmm someone posted similar pics (frosting) with Aura if I recall correctly. Probably should stay away from BM stores too?


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## jnigh (Feb 24, 2011)

never have liked valspar paint. to be honest i think its garbage, have had issues in the past spraying metal doors with valspar paint. Where are you painting? I am in montana. moisture is always an issue even in the summer months. i use cabots pro v. have had great results with it .even with red and yellow shades. hope you can fix the problem inexspensively


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Try washing and area with a hose, not a power washer. If you see it soap up, it likely is a surfactant. If no effect, frosting. In 40 years of inspecting homes, I have seen frosting only once or twice on dark brown solid oil stains.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

With the ice all over the trim, it looks like regular old frost to me.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

2 years ago, dark brown color. used superpaint and it frosted over terribly on all the soffits. similiar conditions to yours. i scrubbed it with a soap and water. no luck. then repainted again....same thing happened. Its not just the paint, its the conditions. I wont paint exterior if night temp gets close to 40.


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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Unfortunately the average temp where I am at is 45 F and about half the summer mornings experience 40's or below (that is from a local NOAA scientist's data collection). The last freeze usually falls around June 1 and the first freeze can occur around Aug 30. 

Strokes, When you say superpaint are you talking about a paint that is advertised as a low temp paint? What was your final solution?


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## crazywasp (Dec 22, 2010)

I've had great success in difficult weather with SW's Duration. I'm talking Colorado highcountry springs geographically.

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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

joe2 said:


> Strokes, When you say superpaint are you talking about a paint that is advertised as a low temp paint?


No, SW makes it and it comes with a "free cape"



joe2 said:


> What was your final solution?


I wish I could help ya more, but it wasn't my job, I was a hired hand. As far as I know it might still look the same.


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## joe2 (Mar 10, 2011)

I ended up using a pump sprayer with hoooot water from the tap. It has been a little over two months and has not come back. Hopefully that did the trick.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Awesome, an actual update to a problem! Thanks and glad it seems to be working.


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