# If customer insists on painting over wallpaper



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Oil prime? Prime with Gardz? She said none of it was sized and the rooms where they previously removed it were a complete nightmare. They aren't willing pay for wallpaper removal at an hourly rate. There is a lot and it would likely be very expensive. 

No warranty, of course. 


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Either will work. Gardz is easier to work with.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

If you use Gardz, I would do two coats. It has worked fine for me in the past, but I feel safer making sure it’s sealed really well. 


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I have never had to do it but only because I was able to talk them out of it. However, if I was forced into doing it (or losing a good job) I would not only prime it very well (as has been mentioned already) but also have them sign off on having it done. Just a bit of extra insurance should it go south sometime in the relatively near future.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

804 Paint said:


> *Oil prime? Prime with Gardz? * She said none of it was sized and the rooms where they previously removed it were a complete nightmare. They aren't willing pay for wallpaper removal at an hourly rate. There is a lot and it would likely be very expensive.
> 
> No warranty, of course.
> 
> ...


As you probably know makes difference what type of wallpaper it is.
If is paper I would use GARDZ, but if is not paper I would never use GARDZ on it, just oil.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok cool. I figured Gardz would be fine. I'll do coat 1, skim out the seams and do coat 2. 

Yeah, it's a good job I don't want to refuse. All kitchen/hallway and half bath woodwork to be painted, including cabinets. 

I would just use Coverstain for everything including walls, but every time I have tried brushing CS on a smooth surface, I can't get it to sand well. It's actually worse than most waterborne primers for me. Which is strange because everyone and their uncle in this site says CS sands easily. 


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> Ok cool. I figured Gardz would be fine. I'll do coat 1, skim out the seams and do coat 2.
> 
> Yeah, it's a good job I don't want to refuse. All kitchen/hallway and half bath woodwork to be painted, including cabinets.
> 
> ...


Try throwing some thinners in your cut can.

Why not use BIN? Sure it stinks, but the smell dispates quickly, and it dries faster than coverstain. 

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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I would go with a tinted primer sealer. 123, Gripper, Problock, Seal Grip, etc.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I've done quite a bit of this and always go with Coverstain.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

If it's cloth back vinyl, slap 2 coats of finish on it, call it a day, have a drink on me!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> I would go with a tinted primer sealer. 123, Gripper, Problock, Seal Grip, etc.


Trouble with them is they are latex and tend to loosen up the paper.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Trouble with them is they are latex and tend to loosen up the paper.


Tried 1-2-3 ONE time for this exact application. Total disaster. I had more bubbles on the wall than I could count. Then you have to cut them out, prime the now bare spot, float in 2 or 3 coats of mud, prime, then paint. CoverStain all day for wallpaper........


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> Tried 1-2-3 ONE time for this exact application. Total disaster. I had more bubbles on the wall than I could count. Then you have to cut them out, prime the now bare spot, float in 2 or 3 coats of mud, prime, then paint. CoverStain all day for wallpaper........


Same here. I've had it work and I've had it horribly not work using 123. Not worth the gamble. Agreed with coverstain, which I used to love the smell of. That novelty wore off years ago.

Anyone else ever tried the Zinsser odourless? I've used it many times, but found it wasn't exactly odourless, spattered crazy amounts and dried really soft. Haven't used it in several years. Maybe they've changed the formula.

It'd be nice to have something that doesn't stink people out of their homes for days like coverstain that actually works.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

After reading the thread, I'm not sure if the OP is talking about a fabric or cellulose backing that is remaining on the substrate after removal of the vinyl, or a paper faced wallcovering remaining, or a vinyl covering remaining. 

If it's backing, I would prime with either GARDZ, BIN, or an oil interior primer probably with a little lean towards the BIN.

If it's paper faced remaining, I would prime with BIN, or an oil interior primer

If it's vinyl faced remaining, I would prime with Zinsser 123, or a comparable acrylic primer


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz over wallpaper?*



804 Paint said:


> Ok cool. I figured Gardz would be fine. I'll do coat 1, skim out the seams and do coat 2.
> 
> Yeah, it's a good job I don't want to refuse. All kitchen/hallway and half bath woodwork to be painted, including cabinets.
> 
> ...


804, if I were you, I would try Gardz on a small area that has a seam to see if your desired process is not going to bubble. That is what I would do, unless I first coated the paper with BIN (or some other non-water based primer/sealer), skimmed whatever needs skimming, then Gardz over the skimmed areas. A small experiment that turns out badly is a better situation to recover from than a big experiment that turns out badly.

futtyos


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> After reading the thread, I'm not sure if the OP is talking about a fabric or cellulose backing that is remaining on the substrate after removal of the vinyl, or a paper faced wallcovering remaining, or a vinyl covering remaining.
> 
> If it's backing, I would prime with either GARDZ, BIN, or an oil interior primer probably with a little lean towards the BIN.
> 
> ...


I agree, OP did really specified so it's easily to understand what is he dealing with.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

chrisn said:


> Trouble with them is they are latex and tend to loosen up the paper.


My experience has been that if the material (which I don't think has been identified) is hung over bare drywall, it will permanently bond to the paper but may loosen from the mud joints when it gets wet, causing bubbles etc. I don't think it matters whether you use oil or latex, if it soaks into the paper the mud joints will need some work. Of course this is a crap shoot depending on what kind of paste was used, and that is why you will have different results from one job to the next when using the exact same product to prime. I do agree that a quick drying primer like coverstain may lock down faster causing less problems, but I don't think it is absolute.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

XYZ said:


> I agree, OP *did *really specified so it's easily to understand what is he dealing with.


I just noticed my typo...
it should be *didn't*


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

SemiproJohn said:


> I've done quite a bit of this and always go with Coverstain.


Double that. Seal the gaps, oil prime, paint. Give them what they want, be happy.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Gwarel said:


> I don't think it matters whether you use oil or latex, if it soaks into the paper the mud joints will need some work


Thinking and doing to see is a different thing. Oil primers do not penetrate to moist, they bond and dry withing an hour and seal like plastic, so nothing gets in or out. Just fyi, or read the label.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

don't.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

another one of my paint stories! I should write a book! Anyway a customer of mine "had" to paint some wallpaper for a client of her on a rental property once. I told him i wouldn't recommend it, but told him the best bet would be to use Coverstain. He cleaned it, lightly sanded it, coverstained it, waited a couple of days and painted it. No problem. Until the client went to the house a week later to put some cheap appliances in it! The paint AND coverstain was FALLING off the wallpaper! Of course the painter wanted to know how to fix it, so i asked him a simple question, "what kind of wallpaper was it?" No clue. And the client had no clue either. All the client knew was that she had bought the wallpaper out of a Sherwin Willaims wallpaper book many years before.

Then it hit me! "Does the wallpaper have a cross hatch pattern embossed in it?"
"yea"


It was teflon coated! "How do i fix it?"

"peel the teflon plastic off of the paper part and prime and paint it like normal."

Simple problem, simple fix. But, How do YOU know what kind of wallpaper you will be painting over? There was a time when almost half the paper sold in the US was some form of teflon coated paper. And absolutely NOTHING will stick to it. So unless you are absolutely sure of what kind of paper it is, i would definitely do a FULL CURE adhesion test on it before i do the whole job! FYI most teflon coated wallpaper will have a crosshatch pattern embossed in it, but not all of them. AND there are some plain old vinyl and vinyl coated papers that have a cross hatch embossed in them. See where i am going? It's not always possible to know so be wary!


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

PACman said:


> another one of my paint stories! I should write a book! Anyway a customer of mine "had" to paint some wallpaper for a client of her on a rental property once. I told him i wouldn't recommend it, but told him the best bet would be to use Coverstain. He cleaned it, lightly sanded it, coverstained it, waited a couple of days and painted it. No problem. Until the client went to the house a week later to put some cheap appliances in it! The paint AND coverstain was FALLING off the wallpaper! Of course the painter wanted to know how to fix it, so i asked him a simple question, "what kind of wallpaper was it?" No clue. And the client had no clue either. All the client knew was that she had bought the wallpaper out of a Sherwin Willaims wallpaper book many years before.
> 
> Then it hit me! "Does the wallpaper have a cross hatch pattern embossed in it?"
> "yea"
> ...


THANK YOU PACman!!
This is really valuable. Who knew, unless you are very experienced "wallpaper hanger" / wallcovering installer.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I've painted over scores of wall covering material and never came across Teflon. I'm almost certain Teflon, like silicone, would show signs of incompatibility within moments of a primer application.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> I've painted over scores of wall covering material and never came across Teflon. I'm almost certain Teflon, like silicone, *would show signs of incompatibility within moments of a primer application.*





PACman said:


> another one of my paint stories! I should write a book! Anyway a customer of mine "had" to paint some wallpaper for a client of her on a rental property once. I told him i wouldn't recommend it, but told him the best bet would be to use Coverstain. He cleaned it, *lightly sanded it, coverstained it, waited a couple of days and painted it. No problem.* Until the client went to the house a week later to put some cheap appliances in it! The paint AND coverstain was FALLING off the wallpaper! Of course the painter wanted to know how to fix it, so i asked him a simple question, "what kind of wallpaper was it?" No clue. And the client had no clue either. All the client knew was that she had bought the wallpaper out of a Sherwin Willaims wallpaper book many years before.
> 
> Then it hit me! "Does the wallpaper have a cross hatch pattern embossed in it?"
> "yea"
> ...


I tent to agree with you CA, but looks that in this case it was not showing incompatibility immediately. Strange.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

XYZ said:


> I tent to agree with you CA, but looks that in this case it was not showing incompatibility immediately. Strange.


No kidding! For the primer to come off as PAC described, you would think there would have been some indication of a problem during application.

But I suppose there are surfaces that can fool you. For example, I once, and only once, painted a door at my house with ACE Hardware brand semi gloss exterior acrylic. The door was previously painted. I washed the door with TSP. Rinsed really well. Let dry and lightly sanded and dusted. 

The finish looked beautiful...until I began lightly sanding for another coat about three days later. The paint rolled up to the point where I could peel it from the door like toasted skin from a BBQ'd chicken breast. I removed the whole thing in about 23 seconds.

Maybe the door had Teflon. :blink:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I've painted over scores of wall covering material and never came across Teflon. I'm almost certain Teflon, like silicone, would show signs of incompatibility within moments of a primer application.


You would think so, but i think the coverstain didn't separate and that is why he didn't see any problem. And the Teflon paper was a thing back in the late 80's and into the 90's. It might have been regional to some extent, but SW was one of the early companies to sell it.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

CApainter said:


> No kidding! For the primer to come off as PAC described, you would think there would have been some indication of a problem during application.
> 
> But I suppose there are surfaces that can fool you. For example, I once, and only once, painted a door at my house with ACE Hardware brand semi gloss exterior acrylic. The door was previously painted.* I washed the door with TSP. Rinsed really well. Let dry and lightly sanded and dusted.*
> 
> ...


I came upon this very interesting character... Nestor_Kelebay
http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/nicotine-cigarette-smoke-smelling-house-284618/

in his post #6 his is talking about TSP, _...quite interesting in my opinion._
His story begins like this:.....lol 
"Go find the person that told you to use TSP on your walls and hit him really hard for me."
LOL, nice guy:vs_laugh:
I like his signature on that DIY Chatroom forum:
"Bashing my head against the walls in some of the internet's finest chat rooms." 

...he has actually very interesting take on TSP.
I don't use old style TSP anymore, I use a lot of *Krud Kutter Original Concentrated Cleaner/Degreaser* now, and it works very well. And I don't wash it, just clean the area with KK, let it dry very well (max 1 hour, in warm weather 30 min) and prime or paint right over it, so far from all the adhesion (finger nail scratch tests) I did the primer and/or paint is grabbing to it very well. 
And most of the time I use it full strength.
_I should start diluting it a bit, maybe even 50/50 with water, I think no need to use full strength._

I know you said that you..."Rinsed really well" but who knows maybe it was still not enough, or I think sometimes maybe the type of water 
(hard or soft water) might play a role in efficiently removing of TSP.
Or maybe in your case it was actually the paint, tho I'm not familiar with ACE Hardware brand paints.

Nevertheless interesting story and another "lesson" not to take things for granted in painting business.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Nestor Kelebay*



XYZ said:


> I came upon this very interesting character... Nestor_Kelebay
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/nicotine-cigarette-smoke-smelling-house-284618/
> 
> in his post #6 his is talking about TSP, _...quite interesting in my opinion._
> ...


I love reading Nestor Kelebay's posts, whatever forum they are from. God rest his soul. I joined PT and a few other forums just as Nestor passed away. 

futtyos


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

futtyos said:


> I love reading Nestor Kelebay's posts, whatever forum they are from. God rest his soul. I joined PT and a few other forums just as Nestor passed away.
> 
> futtyos


 
He was a good guy and smart too.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

XYZ said:


> I came upon this very interesting character... Nestor_Kelebay
> http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/nicotine-cigarette-smoke-smelling-house-284618/
> 
> in his post #6 his is talking about TSP, _...quite interesting in my opinion._
> ...


I usually recommend a throat punch, myself.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I knew someone was going to comment on TSP even before I decided to keep it in my post. It's kind of in the same controversy as PVA sealer. As a matter of fact, I don't believe I used anything but warm water. LOL! But I wanted to appear like I always follow best practices. It was my own home after all.

I actually use a number of surface cleaners at my job. Everything from TSP no rinse concentrate, to Krud Kutter, Jasco cleaners and degreasers, plain water, solvents, and trichloroethylene.

The dry Trisodium Phosphate that the old timers used is probably what this internet legend was referring to .Frankly, I've never heard of him. So at the end of the day no matter what you use, the prepared surface should be clean of contaminants (including the cleaner itself) and a neutral ph. I'm not even comfortable with the wipe on deglossers like Krudd Kutter, but I still use them.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I knew someone was going to comment on TSP even before I decided to keep it in my post. It's kind of in the same controversy as PVA sealer. As a matter of fact, I don't believe I used anything but warm water. LOL! But I wanted to appear like I always follow best practices. It was my own home after all.
> 
> I actually use a number of surface cleaners at my job. Everything from TSP no rinse concentrate, to Krud Kutter, Jasco cleaners and degreasers, plain water, solvents, and trichloroethylene.
> 
> The dry Trisodium Phosphate that the old timers used is probably what this internet legend was referring to .Frankly, I've never heard of him. So at the end of the day no matter what you use, the prepared surface should be clean of contaminants (including the cleaner itself) and a neutral ph. I'm not even comfortable with the wipe on deglossers like Krudd Kutter, but I still use them.


TSP isn't the problem. Not getting all the residue off is. Use Dirtex powder and avoid the problem with pretty much the same results. Much more forgiving than TSP.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

PACman said:


> TSP isn't the problem. Not getting all the residue off is. Use Dirtex powder and avoid the problem with pretty much the same results. Much more forgiving than TSP.


Our go to lately has been Great Lakes No-Rinse. We have been happy with results so far on Metals and Concrete. We can buy it through Sherwin Williams.


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