# Proclassic waterborne questions



## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

I have a kitchen cabinets job that came from a SW rep so I'm using their stuff. 
The Proclassic waterborne is the obvious topcoat choice 
I have a few questions based on this particular job 

I'm repainting over the cabinet factorys finish which I assume is some high test alkyd and has a stronger bond than anything I might apply. Also I'm not changing color which is unusual
There is some fine bead detailing which they are worried about losing with to many coats. 
Do I need to prime? It's only about bond and not blocking (same color) 

Also how do I get the smoothest finish. 3-4 thin coats or lay it on thick and let it do its thing? 
I have a brand new Graco 4 stage turbine and matching hvlp gun. 
Have both #5 and #6 fluid set. Which will be easier to achieve my goal (smooth) 
Will proclassic bond well enough
If a primer is necessary which SW product will be best
Lastly is there an extender /thinner for PC waterborne 
I don't think a latex extender would work but an oil based one wouldn't seem appropriate either 
Thanks a million.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

My money is on SW Multi Surface Acrylic, especially for its adhesion. Proclassic waterborne will never adhere without priming. MSE is a muuuuuuuuch better bet for adhesion. I tried it out a few times, and really like it. Someone else on PT compared it to PPG Breakthrough, but with a slower blocking time. Plus, it's harder than Proclassic.

Obviously, a thorough cleaning and sanding is indicated for any topcoat product.

2 coats of MSE, or a prime and 2X of Proclassic.


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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you for the input 
So clean sand spray with PC waterborne will be a problem, go to know 

Sorry, what product do you mean by MSE. (Not a SW guy)


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

If you go with ProClassic, laying it on thick and letting it do its thing is definitely not the way to go. As kdpaint says, clean, sand, prime first, then a series of thin coats.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

No problem. I wouldn't trust most acrylics over oil. With good cleaning and sanding, I would trust California's Ultraplate, PPG Breakthrough, SW Multi Surface Acrylic (MSE), Muralo Ultra and maybe BM Cabinet Coat.

I'm not even an SW guy. I think Proclassic is mid grade, ok paint, with a learning curve.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

kdpaint said:


> My money is on SW Multi Surface Acrylic, especially for its adhesion. Proclassic waterborne will never adhere without priming. MSE is a muuuuuuuuch better bet for adhesion. I tried it out a few times, and really like it. Someone else on PT compared it to PPG Breakthrough, but with a slower blocking time. Plus, it's harder than Proclassic.
> 
> Obviously, a thorough cleaning and sanding is indicated for any topcoat product.
> 
> 2 coats of MSE, or a prime and 2X of Proclassic.


You beat me to the punch. I've been playing around with the multi surface this week. I put it over Proclassic oil with out sanding first and an hour later I couldn't scratch it off. 

Then I got some cabinet doors at the habit for Humanity ReStore. They were sample doors from a cabinet showroom. Nice wood finish on them for a $1 a piece I bought 15 of them for testing and making my own samples. Anyways again I put it on without sanding couldn't scratch it off within an hour. 

On another door I did half with the SW extreme bonding primer and the other half with the multipurpose primer. After an overnight dry I could scratch them both off. The extreme primer did better but still not even close to the multipurpose. 

Moral of the story if you're using SW for a cabinet job go with the multi surface. It's pretty easy to use, it adheres amazingly, and it dries to a pretty awesome looking finish. 

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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

KD and Rbriggs, you are referring to the *Pro Industrial* Multi Surface Acrylic, correct?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

SemiproJohn said:


> KD and Rbriggs, you are referring to the *Pro Industrial* Multi Surface Acrylic, correct?


Yes

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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

How does the finish look, equal to PC? 
How does it spray? 
How does it cover? 

You know what, I'm going to just go get some and report back


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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

Stupid question 
Could I mix eggshell and gloss to get a sheen somewhere in the middle? Or doesn't it work that way.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

HollisPainting said:


> Stupid question
> Could I mix eggshell and gloss to get a sheen somewhere in the middle? Or doesn't it work that way.



I know of a few peeps who mix sarin and semi Advance--should work, but haven't tried it. 


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

HollisPainting said:


> Stupid question
> Could I mix eggshell and gloss to get a sheen somewhere in the middle? Or doesn't it work that way.


Give it a try. Sometimes one sheen is dominant to a degree. So 50/50 doesn't always work the way you might think.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

Rbriggs82 said:


> You beat me to the punch. I've been playing around with the multi surface this week. I put it over Proclassic oil with out sanding first and an hour later I couldn't scratch it off.
> 
> Then I got some cabinet doors at the habit for Humanity ReStore. They were sample doors from a cabinet showroom. Nice wood finish on them for a $1 a piece I bought 15 of them for testing and making my own samples. Anyways again I put it on without sanding couldn't scratch it off within an hour.
> 
> ...



I've got a brand, spanking new SW rep and he is telling me that the MSE is their version of Breakthrough and has entered a good price (so I can give it a whirl). I'm interested in these type test y'all are doing. Did you brush or spray the doors? When brushing, I just can't see MSE lay out nearly as nice as Advance, but maybe I'm wrong. I like what I'm reading about adhesion, but the brushed finish is gonna be key. 


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

HollisPainting said:


> Stupid question
> Could I mix eggshell and gloss to get a sheen somewhere in the middle? Or doesn't it work that way.


Not a stupid question at all. Yes, you could mix it, but trying to homogenize it with no sheen inconsistencies can be a challenge. Typically, it won't be right in the middle either. For example, hypothetically, if the sheen value of eggshel was a 25 and semi a 75, combining the 2 wouldn't yield a 50. Probably closer to 40. If you do this, mix extremely well, mix often, and make a batch big enough to do the entire project. The chances of you being able to re-create a home-brew sheen to match would be slim. Heck, it's hard enough for the paint stores to do it with set figures and calibrated measurements.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

radio11 said:


> I've got a brand, spanking new SW rep and he is telling me that the MSE is their version of Breakthrough and has entered a good price (so I can give it a whirl). I'm interested in these type test y'all are doing. Did you brush or spray the doors? When brushing, I just can't see MSE lay out nearly as nice as Advance, but maybe I'm wrong. I like what I'm reading about adhesion, but the brushed finish is gonna be key.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't sprayed it yet. I will soon, my parents just redid their kitchen and added a bunch of cabinets. Once I have time I'm going to spray the doors and brush/roll the boxes with the multi surface and spray one of the sample doors I have. 

Your SW rep is right it's very close to breakthrough but it has a little more body to it and I think it covers better. The brushed finish is pretty much the same as breakthrough, pretty darn good but not as good as advance. 

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

radio11 said:


> I know of a few peeps who mix sarin and semi Advance--should work, but haven't tried it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sarin? Isn't that dangerous? It is a deadly poison you know.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PRC said:


> Give it a try. Sometimes one sheen is dominant to a degree. So 50/50 doesn't always work the way you might think.


Having done sheen adjustments in a plant I would suggest that the eggshell would be the dominant sheen. I would start somewhere around 60/40 to get a nice satin.(60% gloss-40% eggshell)


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

PACman said:


> Sarin? Isn't that dangerous? It is a deadly poison you know.



Proper PPE and all is good


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> Having done sheen adjustments in a plant I would suggest that the eggshell would be the *dominant sheen.* I would start somewhere around 60/40 to get a nice satin.(60% gloss-40% eggshell)


So the gloss would therefore be the recessive sheen? Paint genetics. :jester:

Seriously though, to achieve a semi-gloss would you suggest a 50/50 mix of eggshell and gloss? I'm wanting to try the Pro Industrial Multi Surface Acrylic but usually need a semigloss for trim and doors.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

kdpaint said:


> My money is on SW Multi Surface Acrylic, especially for its adhesion.





Rbriggs82 said:


> You beat me to the punch. I've been playing around with the multi surface this week. I put it over Proclassic oil with out sanding first and an hour later I couldn't scratch it off.


What's the approximate price/gallon of Pro Industrial Multi-Surface Acrylic?


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm small potatoes, but was quoted last week $39. 


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

To SW I'm an ant, but they are insane, so, my price is $36.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

kdpaint said:


> To SW I'm an ant, but they are insane, so, my price is $36.



kd--what do you pay for Muralo Ultra and would you trust it with scuff sand and deglosser over 15 year old oil painted trim/doors?

I feel certain Breakthrough and SW MSE would adhere, but really want to try the Muralo and think think the finish would be smoother. 


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Last time I got some Muralo, it was the Ultra, Satin Flow, at $43. It was the bomb. I did a set of cabs that had been done, by me, in Impervo about 5 years prior. I cleaned with Krud Kutter, sanded, and put 2 coats same day. 4 hours after first coat, I couldnt scratch it off a piece of scrap from cabinet job with Impervo on it. Muralo Ultra is awesome. The finish is great.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

kdpaint said:


> Last time I got some Muralo, it was the Ultra, Satin Flow, at $43. It was the bomb. I did a set of cabs that had been done, by me, in Impervo about 5 years prior. I cleaned with Krud Kutter, sanded, and put 2 coats same day. 4 hours after first coat, I couldnt scratch it off a piece of scrap from cabinet job with Impervo on it. Muralo Ultra is awesome. The finish is great.



Thanks, looking forward to giving it a try on an upcoming repaint. 


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Oh how I wish I had access to Muralo around here. 

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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm trying out the SW Pro industrial Multisurface Acrylic. Having a hell of a time spraying it with my HVLP. It doesn't actually list the HVLP as a viable application device. (it does list suggest tip for airless) 
I'm either spray sand or its running off the door. 10' Dryfall is one of its attributes but I have it dryfalling at 10 inches. 
Any advice?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I sprayed it yesterday through an airless with a 310 and it went on beautifully. I haven't tried it with a hvlp yet so I can't help you there. 

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## HollisPainting (Oct 15, 2013)

Still having trouble using hvlp. Tried using a oversized fluidset, thinned about 10%, and turned down the pressure to just before I got splatter and it help but still couldn't do it. Always sand somewhere. So I'm going to call it. 
You can't use Pro Industrial Multisurface Acrylic with an HVLP sprayer.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

HollisPainting said:


> Still having trouble using hvlp. Tried using a oversized fluidset, thinned about 10%, and turned down the pressure to just before I got splatter and it help but still couldn't do it. Always sand somewhere. So I'm going to call it.
> You can't use Pro Industrial Multisurface Acrylic with an HVLP sprayer.



What size hose you running? Where is the rig being stored while spraying, and at what temps? Have you tried a retarder? What stage is your rig?




HollisPainting said:


> I'm trying out the SW Pro industrial Multisurface Acrylic. Having a hell of a time spraying it with my HVLP. It doesn't actually list the HVLP as a viable application device. (it does list suggest tip for airless)
> I'm either spray sand or its running off the door. 10' Dryfall is one of its attributes but I have it dryfalling at 10 inches.
> Any advice?



You mentioned before that the TDS didn't mention HVLP as a viable option, but many of the Tech Sheets offer little advice or info regarding HVLP, but it doesn't mean it can't be done successfully. So many variables with HVLP, the TDS couldn't possibly cover everything.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HollisPainting said:


> Still having trouble using hvlp. Tried using a oversized fluidset, thinned about 10%, and turned down the pressure to just before I got splatter and it help but still couldn't do it. Always sand somewhere. So I'm going to call it.
> You can't use Pro Industrial Multisurface Acrylic with an HVLP sprayer.



_Most_ HVLPs will struggle with acrylics whereas they spray oils very well. Use an airless with a fine finish tip for the SW Multiple Surface and you will be very pleased. If I'm not mistaken it's a product that is designed to be sprayed rather than brush/rolled.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

:whistling2::vs_love::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_shocked:"Ask Sherwin Williams!"


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

sorry. i couldn't help myself.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PACman said:


> :whistling2::vs_love::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_music::vs_shocked:"Ask Sherwin Williams!"


Let it go.

Im relentless.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

epretot said:


> Let it go.
> 
> Im relentless.


Sorry I just got that old SW commercial in my head for some reason. I watched it on Youtube a couple of times so I think I'm over it now.


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