# High gloss angst!



## TallpixiPainter

Help! I'm having a hell of a time getting my high gloss, that I've used before, to go on without brushmarks through my finish. Problematic because the client specified that she didn't want any visible brush marks...using F & B high gloss and it's not working out this time...


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## Pete Martin the Painter

TallpixiPainter said:


> Help! I'm having a hell of a time getting my high gloss, that I've used before, to go on without brushmarks through my finish. Problematic because the client specified that she didn't want any visible brush marks...using F & B high gloss and it's not working out this time...


Try Advance with an extender.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## chrisn

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Try Advance with an extender.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


I agree ditch the [email protected] .


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## Woodco

I've done pretty well with breakthrough, with some XIM in it. It takes several thin coats though, and you have to watch for runs, but it looks smooth as ice when its done.

Have you tried some XIM with your current product?


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## Woodco

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Try Advance with an extender.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


What extender are you using with advance?


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## PACman

F&B? Isn't that that hoity toity $150 a gallon stuff from Jolly ol' England? Are you saying it DOESN'T WORK FOR 5HIT? NOOOO! You HAVE to be kidding!


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## RH

Don't want brushmarks with high gloss? Spray!


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## Pete Martin the Painter

Woodco said:


> What extender are you using with advance?


I use Flood Floetrol. 

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## RH

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I use Flood Floetrol.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


If you have access to them try the XIM extenders. IMO, they are better than the Flotrol products. And since you don't use as much, cheaper.


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## Wildbill7145

I've only used Advance once in high gloss and didn't use any extender, but I thought I'd read on here several times that you were only supposed to use a very wee little bit of water as an extender with that stuff?

Just checked the TDS and it actually mentions just using clean water to thin it.


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## TallpixiPainter

*Funny!*



PACman said:


> F&B? Isn't that that hoity toity $150 a gallon stuff from Jolly ol' England? Are you saying it DOESN'T WORK FOR 5HIT? NOOOO! You HAVE to be kidding!


That's why I'm so irritated! I've used it before and had great results. To answer your question, yes, F&B is Farrow & Ball the really expensive British stuff.


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## slinger58

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've only used Advance once in high gloss and didn't use any extender, but I thought I'd read on here several times that you were only supposed to use a very wee little bit of water as an extender with that stuff?
> 
> Just checked the TDS and it actually mentions just using clean water to thin it.




The BM reps here recommend water only for Advance. But if memory serves, there have been several here on this forum who've used Floetrol or XIM extender with no adverse effects. 

Of course, in doing so contrary to the TDS, the warranty has been voided. 


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## Wildbill7145

Only F&B paint store I've ever been in is the one in Vancouver. I walked in there in my paint stained whites and stood out like a poop in a punch bowl. Place was a boutique, hardly a paint store. Not a brush or a frame to be seen.

Bought a $90 gal of Borrowed Light for an accent wall at the insistence of my customer who picked the colour from a swatch then obsessively complained about it being too light and not what she wanted for a week. She insisted I take the gallon back to be retinted, I insisted that no airline would let the gallon can travel alone so she'd have to pay for my flight as well. After a week of listening to her whine and because she was my landlord at the time I handed her my colour fan and told her to pick a BM colour then drove right over that $90 paint with a gallon of China Blue Regal which made her happy. Never used FB again.

That was 14yrs ago, my first year in business. I'll never forget that job. Taught me a bunch.


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## PNW Painter

What are you painting? Is there a reason you can't use a sprayer?


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## Pete Martin the Painter

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've only used Advance once in high gloss and didn't use any extender, but I thought I'd read on here several times that you were only supposed to use a very wee little bit of water as an extender with that stuff?
> 
> Just checked the TDS and it actually mentions just using clean water to thin it.


Maybe it was not the Advence that I used the extender with....It might have been a been one of BM other lines of paint that I used it with. I hardly ever use the high gloss Advance. It is almost always satin and occasionally semi.

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## cocomonkeynuts

Only had to thin advance once with water, client was getting pinhole. Added 2floz distilled water per gallon problem solved.


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## TallpixiPainter

PNW Painter said:


> What are you painting? Is there a reason you can't use a sprayer?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m painting a table for a client. She wants it to match her walls in her entryway.


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## lilpaintchic

Why not paint it with whatever color you like, with an ex to use product and rattle can some high gloss over it to finish up?
That would reduce your brush strokes considerably.


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## futtyos

*Mini roller?*



TallpixiPainter said:


> I’m painting a table for a client. She wants it to match her walls in her entryway.


The GC I paint condos for is adamant that I not use a brush to paint trim unless I cannot use a mini roller. I found that I can get the finest finish with the least stipple using this from Menards:

https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...74385-c-8115.htm?tid=91628646446886522&ipos=3

I use a wide spackle knife on the floor and can paint the face of the baseboards down to the floor.

For a larger area I get white foam rollers that are 6" long. While fine white foam rollers leave a very faint stipple, the finish is uniform if done carefully and there are no brush marks. Probably one of the smoothest finishes one can get without spraying. All you can do is try it on a piece of wood similar to the table you are working on and see how it works. 

Also, if the foam does not get enough paint onto the table fast enough, you might use a woven or microfiber mini roller to get the paint on first, then finish rolling it with the foam roller. I would imagine that thinning the paint will also help with getting any stipple to lay down more so than if not thinned. Good luck.

futtyos


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## Lazerlnes

If the customer makes a point to insist no brush marks, I make a way to spray. For a table I bring it home to my shop with an added bonus of getting to have a beer between coats!


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## RH

Lazerlnes said:


> If the customer makes a point to insist no brush marks, I make a way to spray. For a table I bring it home to my shop with an added bonus of getting to have a beer between coats!


I have to assume the op doesn't do any spraying. Otherwise, spraying the table would be a no brainer.


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## jennifertemple

I have always been a fan of the velveteen type mini roller sleeves & slightly thinned paint. I too just use distilled water. IMO they are an expensive one use product but provide the least orange peel and zero lint. I have not seen them for a while so I don't even know if they are still made BUT I always found this the next best for gloss when spray was not an option.


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## PACman

jennifertemple said:


> I have always been a fan of the velveteen type mini roller sleeves & slightly thinned paint. I too just use distilled water. IMO they are an expensive one use product but provide the least orange peel and zero lint. I have not seen them for a while so I don't even know if they are still made BUT I always found this the next best for gloss when spray was not an option.


I have them. Worktools International still make them. (Whizz brand actually) Again something else came out (microfiber) and everyone jumped on that bandwagon even though it doesn't work nearly as well with high glosses as a velveteen or velour roller will. (if i remember correctly velveteen was actually a brand name of velour years ago.)

And for some weird reason everyone seems to think foam rollers work best for gloss finishes. I could never figure that one out. How could loading your coat up with bubbles be better?

But the velour/sponge hybrids work quite well.


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## jennifertemple

PACman said:


> I have them. Worktools International still make them. (Whizz brand actually) Again something else came out (microfiber) and everyone jumped on that bandwagon even though it doesn't work nearly as well with high glosses as a velveteen or velour roller will. (if i remember correctly velveteen was actually a brand name of velour years ago.)
> 
> And for some weird reason everyone seems to think foam rollers work best for gloss finishes. I could never figure that one out. How could loading your coat up with bubbles be better?
> 
> But the velour/sponge hybrids work quite well.


Good grief!, foam rollers! I would NEVER use those! If I could not get the velour, I'd go for a pre-rinsed and spun out micro fiber but I never found anything better than the velour type. The real enemy of gloss is dust and loose fibers. "The velour/sponge hybrids work quite well," That was what I used!


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## Eagle Cap Painter

PACman said:


> And for some weird reason everyone seems to think foam rollers work best for gloss finishes. I could never figure that one out. How could loading your coat up with bubbles be better?


Many topcoat products recommend foam rollers on the can! I think they're hot garbage for primers too unless you're into a pitted look. Does anyone have an application where these are ideal? Maybe ultra-thin, slow-drying products since they can hold more material?


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## CApainter

Eagle Cap Painter said:


> Many topcoat products recommend foam rollers on the can! I think they're hot garbage for primers too unless you're into a pitted look. Does anyone have an application where these are ideal? Maybe ultra-thin, slow-drying products since they can hold more material?


Stain. that's it.


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## PACman

The whole sponge roller thing has been a nightmare since day one. They were originally intended for solvent based polyurethanes. At least the Jenfoam ones. They were a high density unlike the typical low density ones people are using today. They are extremely cheap to manufacture and the mark-up on them is YUGE! So of course they marketed the crap out of them. It's another case of too many people not knowing what they are selling for way too long and it becoming the "thing" to do. I see many, many things in the paint business that are done because of this. TSP as a cleaner is a perfect example.


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## CApainter

PACman said:


> The whole sponge roller thing has been a nightmare since day one. They were originally intended for solvent based polyurethanes. At least the Jenfoam ones. They were a high density unlike the typical low density ones people are using today. They are extremely cheap to manufacture and the mark-up on them is YUGE! So of course they marketed the crap out of them. It's another case of too many people not knowing what they are selling for way too long and it becoming the "thing" to do. I see many, many things in the paint business that are done because of this. TSP as a cleaner is a perfect example.


How come you're not differentiating between TSP and TSP substitute? I think most painters these days are using the substitute.


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## PACman

CApainter said:


> How come you're not differentiating between TSP and TSP substitute? I think most painters these days are using the substitute.


because they aren't here! real TSP has been banned in some parts of the country and then the painters use TSP substitute instead. It's the phosphate that is bad for the ecology, not to mention real TSP is used by those bath salt morons to get high. Here it hasn't been banned yet.

Most TSP subs aren't a problem. There is something in actual TSP that doesn't break down easily with water. It's what was causing all of the creeks and rivers to foam up back in the 60's and cause problems for the fishy's and the ducky's.I do believe it was the phosphate, but i am not sure. It was in all of the dishwashing and laundry detergents back then, and when all that water got into the creeks and whatnot it would foam up because it didn't break down completely. So when you use real TSP as a cleaner and rinse with water, it leaves a film of basically soap residue because the water doesn't break it down and rinse it completely away.


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## CApainter

PACman said:


> because they aren't here! real TSP has been banned in some parts of the country and then the painters use TSP substitute instead. It's the phosphate that is bad for the ecology, not to mention real TSP is used by those bath salt morons to get high. Here it hasn't been banned yet.
> 
> Most TSP subs aren't a problem. There is something in actual TSP that doesn't break down easily with water. It's what was causing all of the creeks and rivers to foam up back in the 60's and cause problems for the fishy's and the ducky's.I do believe it was the phosphate, but i am not sure. It was in all of the dishwashing and laundry detergents back then, and when all that water got into the creeks and whatnot it would foam up because it didn't break down completely. So when you use real TSP as a cleaner and rinse with water, it leaves a film of basically soap residue because the water doesn't break it down and rinse it completely away.


You can't purchase the Jasco TSP substitute no rinse concentrate?


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## PACman

CApainter said:


> You can't purchase the Jasco TSP substitute no rinse concentrate?


yeah, but no one does because everyone in all the box stores and SW tell their customers to use regular TSP! Because they...........don't know wtf they are doing.


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## CApainter

PACman said:


> yeah, but no one does because everyone in all the box stores and SW tell their customers to use regular TSP! Because they...........don't know wtf they are doing.


SW sells Savogran TSP-PF (Phosphate Free). Isn't that an acceptable pre painting surface cleaner?


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## UkpainterAsh

F&B is renowned for being overpriced **** in the uk. Customers with to much money want it. If its the water based gloss cut it with water. Still you will struggle to get no brush marks as it tends to dry quicker than you can get it on and looking smooth.

Also in regards to the foam roller in general for smooth oil gloss doors and window cills/boards foam roller are far superior for glass like finish! Then layed of with a decent brush. All mole hair type rollers will leave small amounts of residue no matter how old. Foam is slower and generally more expensive as they get threw away alot after use.


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## burchptg

TSP stands for TriSodium Phosphate. It's a simple chemical, great detergent, but it's also a powerful fertilizer for plants. If you look at a bag of Miracle Gro, there are 3 numbers separated by dashes like 5-10-5. The second number is the phosphate rating.

Long story short, phosphates are not toxic; quite the opposite. It results in plants and algae overgrowing and taking over. It's not the TSP that kills fish, it's the plants and algae that kill the animals by hoovering up all the oxygen in the water to fuel their growth spurt. Using it around the house is not harmful, as long as the solution only goes in the lawn and doesn't go down the house drains, storm drains or creeks and streams.

TSP substitutes used to suck, but they've gotten a lot better.


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## CApainter

burchptg said:


> TSP stands for TriSodium Phosphate. It's a simple chemical, great detergent, but it's also a powerful fertilizer for plants. If you look at a bag of Miracle Gro, there are 3 numbers separated by dashes like 5-10-5. The second number is the phosphate rating.
> 
> Long story short, phosphates are not toxic; quite the opposite. It results in plants and algae overgrowing and taking over. It's not the TSP that kills fish, it's the plants and algae that kill the animals by hoovering up all the oxygen in the water to fuel their growth spurt. Using it around the house is not harmful, as long as the solution only goes in the lawn and doesn't go down the house drains, storm drains or creeks and streams.
> 
> TSP substitutes used to suck, but they've gotten a lot better.


I don't think it was ever the issue that phosphate in TSP (original) was of a health concern. It was more or less that the phosphate was a detriment to paint adhesion.


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## burchptg

I was just trying to respond to PACman's post and just clarify a little.

As far adhesion goes, it was used originally because it interferes less with adhesion than other cleaners. It was a no-rinse cleaner. I've used it quite a lot with no adhesion problems. I've noticed that people often misdiagnose a problem because they would rather blame something they already have misgivings about than really be honest about whether they did everything the way they were supposed to. If you're cleaning a surface, with TSP and the paint doesn't stick, it is the TSP? Or is it that you didn't get all the grime off? I know when I get a holiday, it's because the paint sucks, not because I was half-assing it!

If a surface requires cleaning, it's probably a good idea to sand and/or prime.


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## CApainter

burchptg said:


> I was just trying to respond to PACman's post and just clarify a little.
> 
> As far adhesion goes, it was used originally because it interferes less with adhesion than other cleaners. It was a no-rinse cleaner. I've used it quite a lot with no adhesion problems. I've noticed that people often misdiagnose a problem because they would rather blame something they already have misgivings about than really be honest about whether they did everything the way they were supposed to. If you're cleaning a surface, with TSP and the paint doesn't stick, it is the TSP? Or is it that you didn't get all the grime off? I know when I get a holiday, it's because the paint sucks, not because I was half-assing it!
> 
> If a surface requires cleaning, it's probably a good idea to sand and/or prime.


I think the no rinse TSP_ is_ the no Phosphate TSP (or phosphate subsitute). I also use that quite a bit.


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## sayn3ver

Phosphate isn't toxic at low levels like you said. It is part of the fertilizer system. 

However the problem is close to what you describe. 

Marine plants use nutrients in a certain ratio like terrestrial plants. 

Marine algaes though, when not out completed by marine plants, will take advantage of excess nutrients in the water column and sediments. 

Different algaes can take advantage of different nutrient excesses. That's evolution for you. 

The problem with phosphate runoff and excess phosphate in treated water is that it creates algea blooms. 

Both plants and algae during photosysthesis take in c02, nutrients and sunlight and release oxygen. 

However the algae blooms with explosive growth. Typically covering the entire surface of say a lake, pond, etc. The dense mass actually blocks the sunlight from the plants and algae below and it begins to die and decay. It's the decay that depletes the oxygen from the water column causing fish kills and an anerobic environmental. The decay also releases the nutrients back into the water column. 

It also can cause a bacterial bloom which is feeding off the decay from the dead algae which also depletes the oxygen further. 

Phosphate is just one of the nutrients readily used algae as you need less of it to cause these blooms then say nitrogen. It's also easier i believe to limit phophate vs nitrogen inputs. 

Phosphate laden detergents were also limited in California I believe for a different reason also. Certain aquaifers in Cali are trending more saline. I believe it was phosphate or a phosphate salt in certain dishwasher detergents that was helping to increase the salinity and or the TDS of the aquaifers over time to undrinkable levels for humans. 




burchptg said:


> TSP stands for TriSodium Phosphate. It's a simple chemical, great detergent, but it's also a powerful fertilizer for plants. If you look at a bag of Miracle Gro, there are 3 numbers separated by dashes like 5-10-5. The second number is the phosphate rating.
> 
> Long story short, phosphates are not toxic; quite the opposite. It results in plants and algae overgrowing and taking over. It's not the TSP that kills fish, it's the plants and algae that kill the animals by hoovering up all the oxygen in the water to fuel their growth spurt. Using it around the house is not harmful, as long as the solution only goes in the lawn and doesn't go down the house drains, storm drains or creeks and streams.
> 
> TSP substitutes used to suck, but they've gotten a lot better.


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## deadend

...Solo gloss via brushes details and 4" foam on faces...as stated before...not glass smooth but UNIFORM..."acceptable" being dependent on clients wants/needs/tastes...


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## RH

deadend said:


> ...Solo gloss via brushes details and 4" foam on faces...as stated before...not glass smooth but UNIFORM..."acceptable" being dependent on clients wants/needs/tastes...


As you say, some customers may be okay with that much stipple, but most that I’ve had over the years would not have been satisfied with that particular look.


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