# touch ups gone bad



## yacob (Dec 16, 2007)

hi guys today i went to touch up a new construction completely painted with sw promar flat and i was able to see the touch ups am i doing something wrong? i even used the same roller that i used for the first two coats, any help or ideas please...thanks


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

yacob said:


> hi guys today i went to touch up a new construction completely painted with sw promar flat and i was able to see the touch ups am i doing something wrong? i even used the same roller that i used for the first two coats, any help or ideas please...thanks


umm yeah that might be something to take up with the rep so they can document the guys having trouble touching up Promar 200 flat. Its not supposed to be that way but ive experienced it, other guys I work with experienced it etc. etc.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Did you seal the walls with a pva primer or any other kind of sealer? A couple coats of flat without a sealer can leave the walls thirsty. 
Touch up can sometimes be tricky just from simple things like light exposure or not mixing the paint as you go along. Sometimes it is easier to just plan on painting a wall here and a wall there. 

What is the touch up agreement like? Do you have a certain set amount of time allotted or is just expected that you will make it right no matter your time spent?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok so you rolled. Did you spray and backroll after. If You sprayed, did you use touch up paint that had gone through the sprayer? This can sometimes change the color.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

yacob said:


> am i doing something wrong?


Your using Promar, That stuff is notorious for not touching up. Call your rep, I hope you followed specs, because if you didn't you will most likely be eating it.


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## yacob (Dec 16, 2007)

i shook and stir the paint really well and i used mab primer that is sold on sw stores(that was the owner's choice)so today was the last they before the new owner take over and i saw a lot of flashing on the touch ups, so should i or the owner contact sw rep for more info? thanks


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Your using Promar, That stuff is notorious for not touching up. Call your rep, I hope you followed specs, because if you didn't you will most likely be eating it.


Ok... Glad someone said it. keyword 'notorious'


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Did you buy enough paint for the finish coats and box them prior to applying the paint? What color did you apply?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Your using Promar, That stuff is notorious for not touching up. Call your rep, I hope you followed specs, because if you didn't you will most likely be eating it.


:notworthy: :yes:


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## dvp (Jun 21, 2010)

i dont use sherwin williams(not easily available here) but i always thin the paint for touch-ups, and feather. also if you sprayed, you have to run paint through airless, like was said before. if it a sheen issue you may have to roll some walls, or bring a sprayer in with small tip and low pressure..if you dare. i choose touch up friendly paint now, for this reason. had to repaint whole house after carpet once. if you have a good rep, and its due to material, you may be able to get some compensation. hope this helps


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I've done the spray in a bucket and touch up bit. That's the 1st thing a rep will tell you. It's a waist of time because it doesn't work. A good painter with good paint will touch up no matter what was the previous application method. Besides the op said he rolled it.


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## claystoke (Sep 24, 2010)

Thinning the paint a little so it relaxes a bit will help the touch up. Many times it is the high build of the paint that causes flashing and depth perception issues. Unfortunately PM400 flat is high in titanium which causes it to appear gray and dirty when viewed at an angle. A better touch up paint interior flat from SW would be their Showcase.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

claystoke said:


> A better touch up paint interior flat from SW would be their Showcase.


I would have agreed of that 5 years ago. We had 3 projects, 3 different crews, in a row with showcase. All failed in the touch up stages. We lost a ton on those jobs due to showcase. I heard it was a interior version of acrystain, when it was good. I think the formula has changed and has never been the same.


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## mblosik (Jan 3, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I would have agreed of that 5 years ago. We had 3 projects, 3 different crews, in a row with showcase. All failed in the touch up stages. We lost a ton on those jobs due to showcase. I heard it was a interior version of acrystain, when it was good. I think the formula has changed and has never been the same.


never spray 200..
400 is a much better flat...no deader flat imo.
spray 1 caot pva primer.....than spray and backroll 400 flat.....tochups should melt in....good luck!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

mblosik said:


> caot pva primer.....


Absolutely, NC walls will still be absorbing paint a lot more without it and will give you more touch up issues.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

so if you prime new drywall first, there won't be touchup issues? I'm confused, isn't that sorta what one is supposed to do?


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

and people wonder why most painters do not like NC. Repaint the entire wall, so much easier.

where's my popcorn, this thread is growing legs!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I never heard about paint getting altered by being run through a sprayer and making touchups difficult after. 

I mostly roll interior nc/com on my jobs so haven't seen this. Has anyone else had this issue, and if so what is the cause?

Seems to me that in any situation, to obtain good touchup capability, one needs a proper build from the system. 

A sealed substrate, and two finish coats min. 

And then, of course sheen level of the finish will be a factor. 

Semi-gloss is difficult, flat is easy. Obviously, boxing paint. Basic stuff. Skill level of applicator.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> I never heard about paint getting altered by being run through a sprayer and making touchups difficult after.
> 
> *It can happen. I dont know what causes it ( way over my head ) Certain products it can be much more noticeable.*
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## dvp (Jun 21, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I never heard about paint getting altered by being run through a sprayer and making touchups difficult after.
> 
> i was told this by the owner of a company i used to work for. but the only time we tried it, it didn,t work. must be an urban legend. he probably did hear it from his sales rep. when the paint didnt match.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

I've been told that it will reduce sheen to spray it into a bucket by many a person.

I don't have the time to try it.


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## Rob (Aug 9, 2009)

The sprayer "crushes" some of the paint particles and atomizes it, so it is different when you brush/roll. If the temperature is very different, it can make it happen too. That is another reason I love my Proshot! Works great for touchup!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Rob said:


> The sprayer "crushes" some of the paint particles and atomizes it, so it is different when you brush/roll. If the temperature is very different, it can make it happen too. That is another reason I love my Proshot! Works great for touchup!


Temp and humidity can make a big difference! About 15 years ago I learned that lesson. We were painting a basement floor with polyamid epoxy. Did half the floor on a cool, rainy day, the other half on a clear, warm day. Half the floor was one shade of grey and the other half a different one.....


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Gawd I do hate promar. Compared to super spec I would rather use Bher.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I always try to plan ahead for touchups by proactively making sure all my misses are done in shadow and low lit areas and never where heavy light exposure occurs. 

This saves tons of money because it eliminates my punchlist.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

really? are you guys seriously trying to troubleshoot 200... come on. it is what it is. If sw had in interest in making it touch up good then this might be worthy of trying to figure out what went wrong.


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## yacob (Dec 16, 2007)

ok guys same thing happened today with a guy that i know went to help him today and he was using master hide flat finish from sw(bone white on walls and white on ceilings)so they stained and finished the floors on tuesday and we went for touch ups and same thing touch ups were "flashing" we were able to see them,but even before we cleaned the walls and ceilings with the wooster dust eater,so at this point we still thinking: are WE donig something wrong? or we don't know..this never happened before with bm regal flat but we know that master hide suppose to be easy to be touched up..any other ideas...thanks again


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

is this a joke


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> is this a joke


yeah right? seems like it. We all learn somehow I suppose but I think he may be in denial yet. Its not always easy to understand and come to terms with how paint can let you down in the time of need.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Not everything that goes wrong is our fault, even tho we will get the blame for it and have to fix it (usually at our exspense).

The job I am doing at the present is T&M, so I can take all the time I need. They picked the paint, etc etc.

I am touching up walls now, well they had me paint it all before they layed the hardwood floors, then they had the subfloor sanded, ALL of it, layed the floors and then sanded them. SO,, the walls have a "fur-coat" of dust on them, and they think I can touch them up and have the touch-ups blend into them, without removeing the dust.

Just saying that ALL touch-up mis-matches are not always our fault.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> so if you prime new drywall first, there won't be touchup issues? I'm confused, isn't that sorta what one is supposed to do?


It is what I do, but sometimes corners are cut to fit a budget conscience builder. When and if that happens you want to be upfront about the touch up expectations.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> but sometimes corners are cut to fit a budget conscience builder. When and if that happens you want to be upfront about the touch up expectations.


yeah great point. that would be a huge loser if expectations weren't managed correctly. i'm not clear how one would handle the touchups that would be inevidible on a project of significant scope if corners are cut.

the only time I've had those situations are in industrial office areas.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> yeah great point. that would be a huge loser if expectations weren't managed correctly. i'm not clear how one would handle the touchups that would be inevidible on a project of significant scope if corners are cut.
> 
> the only time I've had those situations are in industrial office areas.


It can happen on NC if the builder finds a good yes man that just agrees because he has a lack of experience. 

I would imagine he would handle it by taking a loss of 2-5 days depending on project size.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

yacob said:


> hi guys today i went to touch up a new construction completely painted with sw promar flat and i was able to see the touch ups am i doing something wrong? i even used the same roller that i used for the first two coats, any help or ideas please...thanks


What color was the the flat paint? If it is a darker color you are going to have a more difficult time touching it up. If it is an off white it should touch up pretty easy. We use a ton of promar 200 flat for ceilings and high walls. I have never had much of a problem with it touching up. One color, divine white, is the only 200 flat that has given me problems. I will admit on a lot of flat ceilings I wont even prime. I will spray the 200 flat without backrolling (ceilings not walls) and it touches up fine. Like I said though when you are going with white or almost any off white its going to touch up most likely, but like others have said if it has set a long time and with temperature differences it can play havoc.

If it's not going to touch up you better learn how to fan a wall properly and plan on repainting window walls if you want your job to pass. That is the one thing with painting. You never know how a job is going to touch up in the end for sure. Every job is different. This is the reason we usually prime, one coat, and leave the final coat until the end.


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## dvp (Jun 21, 2010)

i dont know where your located, but if your in the south west, give dunn edwards ultra scrub a try. its self priming over new drywall and can be used to prime woodwork as well. a monkey could touch this up and it will match, six months later, even if you have to buy different paint. its reasonably priced ($65.00 a 5 i think). you have to ask rep about it cause they dont market it to consumers. has a nice finish too. painted 3 tracts with it, not a problem one.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

CK_68847 said:


> you better learn how to fan a wall properly and plan on repainting window walls if you want your job to pass.
> 
> How do you fan it?
> Every job is different. This is the reason we usually prime, one coat, and leave the final coat until the end.


great idea on waiting to do the final coat till the last.:thumbsup:


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## Wallnut (May 4, 2010)

man... so many why use promar 2 on walls? quit cheaping out... theres no reason if you primed that especially a flat wont touch up. Pro200 is for ceilings only IMO.


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## Wallnut (May 4, 2010)

yacob said:


> ok guys same thing happened today with a guy that i know went to help him today and he was using master hide flat finish from sw(bone white on walls and white on ceilings)so they stained and finished the floors on tuesday and we went for touch ups and same thing touch ups were "flashing" we were able to see them,but even before we cleaned the walls and ceilings with the wooster dust eater,so at this point we still thinking: are WE donig something wrong? or we don't know..this never happened before with bm regal flat but we know that master hide suppose to be easy to be touched up..any other ideas...thanks again


i dont even know what to say.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Wallnut said:


> man... so many why use promar 2 on walls? quit cheaping out... theres no reason if you primed that especially a flat wont touch up. Pro200 is for ceilings only IMO.


I would not use ProMar 200 not even to paint a closet :no:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

As much as I enjoy the SW Pro Mar bashing, I have to stick up for it. Its really not that bad of a paint. Dark colors sure, I'd choose something better, but light colors, its just fine. 

Ok, now I have to repent to the almighty BM


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Compared to Super Spec it is horrible, and you know it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm sorry but if there are problems with touch-ups using a flat paint, it probably isn't the paints fault.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Lol, Have you ever use SW in new construction?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Lol, Have you ever use SW in new construction?


me?, yes. Many times. And use eggshell mostly, sometimes satin. I'm not even in SW's corner here either and is not my point at all.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> As much as I enjoy the SW Pro Mar bashing, I have to stick up for it. Its really not that bad of a paint. Dark colors sure, I'd choose something better, but light colors, its just fine.
> 
> Ok, now I have to repent to the almighty BM


Im with you. I have no problem with the promar 200 series either. It doesn't touch up as well as it use to because I think they have added more sheen. Their egshell use to touch up much better before they changed over in 2003 or so. It is a very easy paint to work with. I have used BM, PPG, DV, valspar, ralph lauren and whatever, and I think it is as good or better than any of them. I can see painting something out twice if its a spec house or small job but in commercial we generally prime, one coat right away, and put the final coat on at the end, so there isnt a touch up problem.


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## yacob (Dec 16, 2007)

so we are expecting the visit of the sw rep tomorrow and i'll let you know what is next he said he is going to check the problem with the master hide which was a ready mix color..thanks guys


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