# Clear coat for dining table?



## finishesbykevyn

Going to be sanding down a previously clear coated table. Not sure what was on it before.
Looking for suggestions on a product to Recoat (preferably waterbased ).
I'm in Canada and have access to BM and SW and Dulux. And of course the box stores..

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## Woodco

BM just introduced a new waterborne poly that you can add a catalyst to. 


Here it is.
https://myoldmasters.com/product/masters-armor/

The link doesnt show the hardening agent though...


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Going to be sanding down a previously clear coated table. Not sure what was on it before.
> Looking for suggestions on a product to Recoat (preferably waterbased ).
> I'm in Canada and have access to BM and SW and Dulux. And of course the box stores..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk



Just curious, is there a specific reason why you prefer waterbased? Oil-based Poly gives wood a warm glow, and so easy to use.

I re-finished my Dining Room table this winter, because the factory lacquer was breaking down. I used Minwax Oil Polyurethane and applied it with Steel Wool and rags- about 4 coats.


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## Redux

EMTECH EM8000cv WB Conversion Varnish with EMTECH CL100 WB CrossLinker

https://www.targetcoatings.com/product/em8000cv-wb-conversion-varnish/

Just did a couple of tables with their flat which is more like a low satin..

The table pictured was previously finished by others in the same fashion that Holland mentioned with 4 coats of Minwax Wiping Poly. It only gets used on weekends, and experienced staining and finish failure shortly after its 2nd year in service.

Ended up buzzing the wiping poly off w/a Rotex followed by a half sheet sander. Water popped and sanded to #320. Applied 4 coats EM 8000 flat w/HVLP. Gave it a final hand rub w/000 bronze wool and wool lube. The EM 8000 CV provides that warm amber glow that oil does.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Woodco said:


> BM just introduced a new waterborne poly that you can add a catalyst to.
> 
> 
> Here it is.
> https://myoldmasters.com/product/masters-armor/
> 
> The link doesnt show the hardening agent though...



1) Old Masters is not BM, and that product has been around for quite some time.
2) See my other thread regarding aziridine cross linker, ie you can add this type of catalyst to any waterborne polyurethane
3) Megavar WB urethane lacquer  (ps you can also add crosslinker to this precat finish as well)


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## Woodco

Ill have to recheck, but i could have sworn that the hardener was designed specifically for the mastors armor, and the guy at my BM store said it was new.


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## finishesbykevyn

Alchemy Redux said:


> EMTECH EM8000cv WB Conversion Varnish with EMTECH CL100 WB CrossLinker
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.targetcoatings.com/product/em8000cv-wb-conversion-varnish/
> 
> 
> 
> Just did a couple of tables with their flat which is more like a low satin..
> 
> 
> 
> The table pictured was previously finished by others in the same fashion that Holland mentioned with 4 coats of Minwax Wiping Poly. It only gets used on weekends, and experienced staining and finish failure shortly after its 2nd year in service.
> 
> 
> 
> Ended up buzzing the wiping poly off w/a Rotex followed by a half sheet sander. Water popped and sanded to #320. Applied 4 coats EM 8000 flat w/HVLP. Gave it a final hand rub w/000 bronze wool and wool lube. The EM 8000 CV provides that warm amber glow that oil does.


Jaazus. That stuff sounds incredible. Who carries the Emtech? Or Do I have to order that in..

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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Just curious, is there a specific reason why you prefer waterbased? Oil-based Poly gives wood a warm glow, and so easy to use.
> 
> I re-finished my Dining Room table this winter, because the factory lacquer was breaking down. I used Minwax Oil Polyurethane and applied it with Steel Wool and rags- about 4 coats.


Your right about the warm glow, which is nice. Just don't like spraying oils in my shop. I'll probably shoot it with my hvlp or airless.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Woodco said:


> Ill have to recheck, but i could have sworn that the hardener was designed specifically for the mastors armor, and the guy at my BM store said it was new.



masters armor has its own optional 'hardener'. Its just coincidence that many BM stores decided to carry old masters after BM discontinued the benwood line of products. It has been available for a few years now anyway. Its a slow catalyst too, 48 hour pot life.


Ask your dealer about adding the Lenmar catalyst to stays clear, aquaplastic


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> Jaazus. That stuff sounds incredible. Who carries the Emtech? Or Do I have to order that in..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Target Coatings is primarily an e-commerce business, so whether purchasing in the US or Canada, there are very few retailers. You can call Target Coatings directly for international shipping or try Canadian retailers listed below. The Canadian retailers only carry the more popular EMTECH products. 

Just a note with any WB finishes on wear surfaces such as tabletops...just about any WB clear film finish below a 25% +/- sheen level will have a tendency to burnish/leave shiny rub marks when something is slid across the finished surface cross grain. I would recommend stepping up the sheen from the flat I used. A quick gentle swipe with 000 bronze wool knocks down rub marks if they should ever occur with flat. 

Artdec
797 Avenue Granada
Rouyn-Noranda QC J9X 7B3
1.888.797.4344
http://www.ardec.ca

Coast Signature Paints
1747 Boundary Road
Burnaby BC V5M 3Y7 
604.299.1860 
http://www.coastpaint.com/

Coastec Industrial Paints Ltd.
116-7350 72nd Street
Delta BC V4G 1H9 
604.940.3393
http://www.coastpaint.com/

Lee Valley Tools 
Lee Valley Tools Store Locator

Wood Essence Distributing
2343 1st Avenue, North
Saskatoon, SK S7K2A2
306.955.8775
http://www.woodessence.com/


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## RH

Alchemy Redux said:


> Target Coatings is primarily an e-commerce business, so whether purchasing in the US or Canada, there are very few retailers. You can call Target Coatings directly for international shipping or try Canadian retailers listed below. The Canadian retailers only carry the more popular EMTECH products.
> 
> Just a note with any WB finishes on wear surfaces such as tabletops...just about any WB clear film finish below a 25% +/- sheen level will have a tendency to burnish/leave shiny rub marks when something is slid across the finished surface cross grain. I would recommend stepping up the sheen from the flat I used. A quick gentle swipe with 000 bronze wool knocks down rub marks if they should ever occur with flat.
> 
> Artdec
> 797 Avenue Granada
> Rouyn-Noranda QC J9X 7B3
> 1.888.797.4344
> http://www.ardec.ca
> 
> Coast Signature Paints
> 1747 Boundary Road
> Burnaby BC V5M 3Y7
> 604.299.1860
> http://www.coastpaint.com/
> 
> Coastec Industrial Paints Ltd.
> 116-7350 72nd Street
> Delta BC V4G 1H9
> 604.940.3393
> http://www.coastpaint.com/
> 
> Lee Valley Tools
> Lee Valley Tools Store Locator
> 
> Wood Essence Distributing
> 2343 1st Avenue, North
> Saskatoon, SK S7K2A2
> 306.955.8775
> http://www.woodessence.com/


Out here, my local Miller dealer carries a limited stock of Target Coatings. Or, they order in any that is desired but not in store. They are the ones who got me turned onto it and I love the 8000 for cabinets. But, I think if I were going to do a table top, I might still go with an oil based clear. Either way, clears work beautifully out of my HVLP. Would not even consider using an airless for those.


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## PNW Painter

I’ve heard of people on other forums using floor finishes from Bona and Glitza for table tops. 

If I really wanted to spray I’ve had excellent results with SW HydroPlus with the crosslinker. The performance characteristics should be very similar to the Emtec EM8000, which I’ve never had a chance to use.


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## Redux

PNW Painter said:


> I’ve heard of people on other forums using floor finishes from Bona and Glitza for table tops.
> 
> If I really wanted to spray I’ve had excellent results with SW HydroPlus with the crosslinker. The performance characteristics should be very similar to the Emtec EM8000, which I’ve never had a chance to use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m with PNW on Glitsa solvent borne coversion varnish as being bulletproof for tabletops. The stuff is absolutely beautiful to work with. The only reason I don’t use it is that any solvent borne CV labeled or marketed for floor use cannot be distributed, sold, or used in my location, otherwise that would be my go-to finish. I think the VOC’s are just shy of 800g/l..

Ditto on the Bona 2-K finishes as well. Either the Bona Traffic Satin or Naturale would make for a bomb-proof tabletop finish. The only problem when spraying Bona-kemi is the potential for micro-bubbles and cratering due to CO2 production. They are engineered to be rolled, but you can achieve a flawless sprayed look with the proper roller. They also have terrible vertical hang properties and cannot be applied on vertical surfaces too effectively. I was going to use Naturale on the tabletop pictured, but the client is asthmatic, and has sensitivities with isocyanates.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Alchemy Redux said:


> I’m with PNW on Glitsa solvent borne coversion varnish as being bulletproof for tabletops. The stuff is absolutely beautiful to work with. The only reason I don’t use it is that any solvent borne CV labeled or marketed for floor use cannot be distributed, sold, or used in my location, otherwise that would be my go-to finish. I think the VOC’s are just shy of 800g/l..
> 
> Ditto on the Bona 2-K finishes as well. Either the Bona Traffic Satin or Naturale would make for a bomb-proof tabletop finish. The only problem when spraying Bona-kemi is the potential for micro-bubbles and cratering due to CO2 production. They are engineered to be rolled, but you can achieve a flawless sprayed look with the proper roller. They also have terrible vertical hang properties and cannot be applied on vertical surfaces too effectively. I was going to use Naturale on the tabletop pictured, but the client is asthmatic, and has sensitivities with isocyanates.



Have you used any of the lenmar wateborne megavar? I heard of people using it also with the lenmar crosslinker... Both those products contain no isocyanates.


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## Woodco

cocomonkeynuts said:


> masters armor has its own optional 'hardener'. Its just coincidence that many BM stores decided to carry old masters after BM discontinued the benwood line of products. It has been available for a few years now anyway. Its a slow catalyst too, 48 hour pot life.
> 
> 
> Ask your dealer about adding the Lenmar catalyst to stays clear, aquaplastic


I was also told, that its not exactly a catalyst, as in, after the 48 hour pot life, the product is still perfectly usable, but the crosslinker is no longer active after that time, but you can simply add more, so thats pretty cool.


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## Holland

Alchemy Redux said:


> The table pictured was previously finished by others in the same fashion that Holland mentioned with 4 coats of Minwax Wiping Poly. It only gets used on weekends, and experienced staining and finish failure shortly after its 2nd year in service.


wow. 
hard to believe that 4 coats of oil-based polyurethane would fail in less than 2 years! I'm curious what a failure would look like.


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## Holland

kinda surprised you're not doing a traditional shellac finish (French Polish)
nudge, nudge.


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## Redux

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Have you used any of the lenmar wateborne megavar? I heard of people using it also with the lenmar crosslinker... Both those products contain no isocyanates.


I never did try the MegaVar WB PU, although I have used and do like the Lenmar oil PU. Any KCMA testing done on the MegaVar WB? I heard the DuraLaq has poor chemical resistance..409, Windex, etc..


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## Redux

Holland said:


> wow.
> hard to believe that 4 coats of oil-based polyurethane would fail in less than 2 years! I'm curious what a failure would look like.


I have wiping finishes (oil-resin mixtures) on most of my tabletops, wood countertops, and furnishings in my own house. I periodically apply a maintenance coating and all is fine. I like minimalist wiping finishes much better than plastic film finishes.

Failure was hard-water related, the tap water having a high iron content creating gray stains within the wood.


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## Redux

Holland said:


> kinda surprised you're not doing a traditional shellac finish (French Polish)
> nudge, nudge.


I did a French Polish on my living room coffee table, setting a hot pizza box down on it, the heat melting the finish and the cardboard getting stuck to it..the finish having -zero- alcohol resistance as well, so no more beer and pizza on game nights..think I’m getting a new coffee table with a more alcohol and heat resistant finish!


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## cocomonkeynuts

Woodco said:


> I was also told, that its not exactly a catalyst, as in, after the 48 hour pot life, the product is still perfectly usable, but the crosslinker is no longer active after that time, but you can simply add more, so thats pretty cool.



Old masters hardener is not listed what the mechanism for cross linking is but TBH it sounds similar to aziridine cross linkers like Dalys and more than likely that is what it is. 48 hours life, then add more if need. aziridine based crosslinkers are unique in that they can be added to pretty much any acrylic finish.


Dalys crosslinker is 73% propylene glycol / 27% aziridine.
Lenmar crosslinker is 100% aziridine.


Interestingly the Daly's crosslinker would probably work nicely as both a crosslinker AND a latex extender like XIM due to the high amount of propylene glycol.



https://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/PDF/specs/S-CrystalFinFloors.pdf
http://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/PDF/sds/SDS-CROSSLINKER.pdf


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## Redux

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Old masters hardener is not listed what the mechanism for cross linking is...



SDBS chain extenders...I think..
(sodium 2,4-diaminobenzenesulfonate), eliminates the need for organic solvents


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## jennifertemple

Holland said:


> wow.
> hard to believe that 4 coats of oil-based polyurethane would fail in less than 2 years! I'm curious what a failure would look like.



That was my feeling as well. I've had it on my main dining table for 4 years now. It's taken quite a beating and is still sound! I do wander if there was not some kind of contamination on the surface prior to application. I love the wipe on for a quick finish! I usually go 3-4 applications with a light wet sand between coats.


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## finishesbykevyn

What would you normally wipe it on with Jennifer.?

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## Packard

About 18 years ago a local Starbucks restaurant asked me to refinish their almost new table tops as the finish had grown soft in less than one year.

I did so using Minwax Oil based semi-gloss which I brushed on. Four heavy coats and 10 days cure before returning the tops. 

Starbucks remodels their stores every 10 years. When the refinished tables were retired they still looked very good with only minor surface scratches (probably from the old ceramic dishes--which were also retired for plastic ones).

I'm not saying it is the best finish for a table; but it is one that I know will stand up to commercial use for 9½ years of daily spills and wipings. 

I think key is letting it have a full cure (7+ days) before putting the tops back in service regardless of the chosen finish.


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> What would you normally wipe it on with Jennifer.?
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


I use retired dish towels but any lint free rag will work. Take care to make each application thin and do not over work it.


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## Redux




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## CobraCDN

Timberlox Waterborne Polycarbonate Urathane Varnish from Cloverdale. Comes in satin & gloss. I've used this stuff on my own table, hardwood stair treads and nosings, wood doors, etc etc. Its my go to clear. Sand nice, spray brush or roll or pad all good. Best of all like you its Canadian  
Am I allowed to link products in these forums?
Cheers


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## CobraCDN

Noticed some other links on forums, so here it is,
https://www.cloverdalepaint.com/pro...bspwaterborne-polycarbonate-varnish-satin-gl3


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## Jefferyk2

Because of its longevity, I usually use polyurethane for table and desk tops. Tung oil is more difficult to deal with and isn't as long-lasting.

Layers of satin or other less glossy finishes build up softer than gloss, even if you don't desire a shining finish. I use gloss finish to build the desired finish, sanding as needed, and then buff the final finish to the desired level of shine. If you want to save time, start with a gloss finish and then finish with a satin or kitchen table top finish.

Take your time and allow each coat to fully cure. A soft layer deep down will always be soft, preventing the next layer from fully bonding.

Because modern coatings are chemically inert once they've been cured, you can choose between water-based and alkyd finishes based on your tolerance for the processes themselves. Cleaning with water vs. cleaning with solvents If drying in a too hot room, there will be fumes, bubbles in the finish, and orange peel.

If you didn't fill the grain before staining, an application of sanding sealer will help you finish the top with a good, smooth finish.


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## CobraCDN

The satin I posted is plenty hard, does not scuff and will take the heat from hot pots just fine. Been on my kitchen table for 6 years. Have it on all sorts of projects, even stair treads.


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## Packard

not applicable


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