# House We Just Finished



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

This is a house we just finished.

It is an interesting Ranch that was originally built in the early 1960's, and like so many other homes in this area, it was added-onto and renovated multiple times along the way until it was a one-of-a-kind home. This home will likely be passed down in the family for generations. It is not uncommon to have summer homes in this area that have been passed down three, four, or even five generations (and sometimes more).

In my opinion Solid Stain is the only appropriate "long-term" maintenance product for Rough Cut Cedar siding.

Previously, a "friend of the family" painter had sprayed the siding with a Latex Paint, but did not back-roll. I know this, because I met him, and he told me that was what he did many years ago. As a result, the siding was peeling extensively.

The soffits were also peeling extensively, from a combination of latex paint being applied over an oil based paint without primer, and failing original paint layer (depending on which part of the addition we were working on at the time).

-We spent almost a solid week scraping and prepping, and as I recommend in these cases, we switched back to Solid Stain for the siding.

* I feel that Solid Stain "breathes better", and will be less likely to peel in the future in the repaired areas, and would therefore require less involved maintenance in the future.
Texture was the primary concern switching back to solid stain, because there were a lot of areas that were scraped, and we did not want it to detract from the aesthetic. Although paint adds "build" and hides the chippy texture better, the Solid Stain is dead flat, which helped camouflag the peeling texture somewhat; not to mention that the texture is also somewhat hidden by the rough-cut Cedar siding texture itself. 
In the end, the chippy texture was mostly unnoticeable, and more of an afterthought.

-We primed the soffits with an oil based primer before top coating with an Exterior 100% Acrylic Paint.

-We "primed" the siding areas with latex Solid Stain, and then double-coated all the siding.

-Deck was stained with Cabot Semi-solid oil based stain. the smaller deck had previously painted with a latex Solid Deck Stain, so we scraped and re-coated with same.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Holland said:


> -We primed the soffits with an oil based primer before top coating with an Exterior 100% Acrylic Paint.


I would not use oil primer.
I would use XIM Peel Bond for that application, or Zinsser Peel Stop. 
Tho by looking at TECHNICAL DATA, the XIM Peel Bond is better product than Zinsser Peel Stop.
But regardless of that, in my opinion either one of them would be better primer than oil primer.
Oil primer over unpainted wood is OK, (but I would use long-oil primer not the fast drying regular oil primer).
When priming with oil primer over scraped to the bare wood areas and un-scraped areas, oil primer is not the best product to go over the un-scraped areas.
Peel Bond type of product is far superior for that application in my opinion. 

If you are not familiar with Peel Bond primer, here is the link:


https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/xim/primers-sealers/peel-bond/



TECHNICAL DATA:


https://www.rustoleum.com/-/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/XIM/XIM-02_Peel_Bond_High-Build_Bonding_Primer_Sealer_TDS.ashx


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Q - What's brown and sticky? 

A - "Sticky" the mascot


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Holland said:


> * I feel that Solid Stain "breathes better", and will be less likely to peel in the future in the repaired areas, and would therefore require less involved maintenance in the future.
> Texture was the primary concern switching back to solid stain, because there were a lot of areas that were scraped, and we did not want it to detract from the aesthetic. Although paint adds "build" and hides the chippy texture better, the Solid Stain is dead flat, which helped camouflag the peeling texture somewhat; not to mention that the texture is also somewhat hidden by the rough-cut Cedar siding texture itself.
> In the end, the chippy texture was mostly unnoticeable, and more of an afterthought.


Maybe coco has more scientific data on that,
but in my opinion priming the siding with Peel Bond primer and applying good quality paint on top of it would perform better over the time than the solid stain.
And of course Peel Bond would hide/cover much better the scraped to the bare wood areas of the siding making the paint to look very uniformed.
I hit the scraped to the bare wood areas twice with Peel Bond, rest of the siding gets one coat of PB.
Dead flat stain in dark color is of course_ *A* _disaster when it comes to the dust sticking to it.
Bit of sheen in top coat paint would be much better to deal with the dust issue.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

IKnowNothing said:


> Maybe coco has more scientific data on that,
> but in my opinion priming the siding with Peel Bond primer and applying good quality paint on top of it would perform better over the time than the solid stain.
> And of course Peel Bond would hide/cover much better the scraped to the bare wood areas of the siding making the paint to look very uniformed.
> I hit the scraped to the bare wood areas twice with Peel Bond, rest of the siding gets one coat of PB.
> ...


You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that you have a viewpoint, I just happen to disagree with it.

If we all felt the same, it would be pretty boring around here.

I stated my opinions in order to elicit feedback, such as you shared, and to possibly garner discussion.

We mainly specialize in Cedar homes and older Historic homes, and I approach both of these styles differently, but with the same intent. I have loose guidelines, which I use to direct my approach to most homes. One primary motivator is to maintain the integrity of the architectural style and character of the home insofar as it relates to painting, and to have long-term strategy for maintenance that reduces extra steps (such as scraping and priming when possible).


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Holland said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that you have a viewpoint, I just happen to disagree with it.
> 
> If we all felt the same, it would be pretty boring around here.
> 
> ...


You might not know this, but the Peel Bond primer is very extensively used in restoration of historical houses.
Google it.
There are articles and videos on it.

I take different approach when it comes to the prep work. 
I prefer to use the best possible products aka primers and practices. 
From the pictures (and your post) it looks like the surfaces were scraped, so why not to use best possible primer for it.
I don't think that you would distract the integrity and architectural style and character of the home by using best possible primer for it.
But perhaps you were not familiar with the superiority of Peel Bond primer.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

IKnowNothing said:


> You might not know this, but the Peel Bond primer is very extensively used in restoration of historical houses.
> Google it.
> There are articles and videos on it.
> 
> ...


Cedar homes should be stained.
Scraping rough cut cedar is always a bad idea, and in my opinion painting cedar homes is a crime.

*In this particular instance, the home was painted -and- stained over the course of several decades. Some of the house was painted, some was stained. 

The "painted" portions (predictably) did not weather as well as the "stained" portions. This was due to a number of factors, but in the end, we had to choose one to move forward with. 

It is my practice to return Cedar to solid stain whenever possible (if they have been painted, and are peeling)... and in this case, it was possible.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Holland said:


> Cedar homes should be stained.
> Scraping rough cut cedar is always a bad idea, and in my opinion painting cedar homes is a crime.
> 
> *In this particular instance, the home was painted -and- stained over the course of several decades. Some of the house was painted, some was stained.
> ...


I agree on the rough cut cedar not to be scraped, but from the second picture it looks like the siding was or scraped or sanded to the bare wood.
But when it comes to soffits, I would consider in the future to use Peel Bond primer instead of oil primer before painting them.
Peel Bond will give much better longevity of the top coat, than oil primer.
Tho some times longevity is not welcomed, when considering security of possible maintenance job in the future.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

IKnowNothing said:


> I agree on the rough cut cedar not to be scraped, but from the second picture it looks like the siding was or scraped or sanded to the bare wood.
> But when it comes to soffits, I would consider in the future to use Peel Bond primer instead of oil primer before painting them.
> Peel Bond will give much better longevity of the top coat, than oil primer.
> Tho some times longevity is not welcomed, when considering security of possible maintenance job in the future.


It is unfortunate that we had to do so much scraping on rough cut Cedar. If it had been stained, that would not have happened.

re: soffits - are you advocating a "high-build primer" for 'touch-ups' on a smooth soffit surface, or are suggesting the entire surface be re-primed and then re-painted?
I am envisioning roller marks/texture from the high-build primer everywhere it is used. 
Seems like it would be a more realistic option for an old pine board siding that has lots of chipped paint texture on the surface.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I feel that it is important to maintain the grain texture of rough-cut Cedar siding whenever possible. 

Painting it too frequently (or at all) softens, and eventually forms a film that covers the grain/texture, and hides the character and charm of natural Cedar siding. 

Given the circumstances, whereas some siding had been painted and some had not, we decided we could return to Solid Stain moving forward. 

I anticipate that some more peeling will still happen in the painted areas in the future, but will be less and less as we continue with this approach.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Nice work Holland! You really have a way of bringing inspiration to painting.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Great looking work Holland. Seeing more and more really dark colors, even black, for exteriors these last few seasons. Not a fan of them myself but I guess whatever the HO desires.
edit: do any of you guys applying the dark colors feel they might be problematic in showing dust and dirt or when trying to do just basic things like brushing cobwebs away?


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

looks awesome, agree with your solid stain choice. love the dark color, might have featured off the garage door to break up the darkness a bit and make something pop.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Holland said:


> Q - What's brown and sticky?
> 
> A - "Sticky" the mascot
> 
> View attachment 112592


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> Great looking work Holland. Seeing more and more really dark colors, even black, for exteriors these last few seasons. Not a fan of them myself but I guess whatever the HO desires.
> edit: do any of you guys applying the dark colors feel they might be problematic in showing dust and dirt or when trying to do just basic things like brushing cobwebs away?


Not around here. Every single house I've painted this year has been bright white. To the point where my wife is telling me I should start wearing sunglasses at work to deal with the glare. Shows everything. Cobwebs, spider poop, dead bugs, etc.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Vylum said:


> looks awesome, agree with your solid stain choice. love the dark color, might have featured off the garage door to break up the darkness a bit and make something pop.


Good call on the garage door. I agree it could look better.

The steel door was originally a dark chocolate brown that didn't match anything. My initial thought was to paint it the same color as the siding (so it does not draw undue attention), but pop the sheen for contrast.

However, they were out of all paint in that base. There wasn't a single can of paint to be had in a gallon in the needed base at that store, or any nearby stores. We settled for painting it the same as the siding, and told the customer we could re-paint it down the road. They managed to get a quart of paint so we could paint the service doors.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

RH said:


> Great looking work Holland. Seeing more and more really dark colors, even black, for exteriors these last few seasons. Not a fan of them myself but I guess whatever the HO desires.
> edit: do any of you guys applying the dark colors feel they might be problematic in showing dust and dirt or when trying to do just basic things like brushing cobwebs away?


We didn't do any color changes this year, other than a few minor tweaks here and there. All re-paints. 

I'll have to rely on social media to tell me what's popular this season.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not around here. Every single house I've painted this year has been bright white. To the point where my wife is telling me I should start wearing sunglasses at work to deal with the glare. Shows everything. Cobwebs, spider poop, dead bugs, etc.


sunglasses or crow-lines around your eyes. White paint is definitely bright. 

They can start looking a little dingy when they get that dust film, and cobwebs, dead bugs, spider poop.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Here are Mascots from previous jobs: 
"Chris the Unicorn"








"Baldy the Eagle"


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Holland said:


> However, they were out of all paint in that base. There wasn't a single can of paint to be had in a gallon in the needed base at that store, or any nearby stores.


That's really becoming a problem around here. Last house I finished I showed up to grab a bunch of paint and they had one single gallon of what I needed. Customer was heading to the city that day and grabbed what we needed, but they had to call several stores to find it. Never had this problem before.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Looks great @Holland… love the color..I’m planning on doing my 1740 built home’s exterior, come early fall, in a similar/nearly identical color…everything from the roof line down except the entry door will be a dark monochromatic gray, similar to Paul Revere’s house..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Looks great @Holland… love the color..I’m planning on doing my 1740 built home’s exterior, come early fall, in a similar/nearly identical color…everything from the roof line down except the entry door will be a dark monochromatic gray, similar to Paul Revere’s house..


Thanks!

post lots of pics. 
Love seeing your work.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Technogod said:


> Peel Bond is awesome product and you are right about the product.
> The problem is, Ppl here in this forum are professionals and have their own way to eat yogurt
> He is right and you are right.
> I have been telling Bin and Advance is not a perfect candidate to finish cabinetry ,there are tons of better products as easy as spraying or painting like them since i joined this forum but who cares ?) their way is the right way and i quit talking or arguing.
> Call it a day my friend.


 Not trying to derail this thread. Great work Holland btw. I'm sure whatever work you did will last 10 times longer than whoever did it last.. I would have stained it also.. @Technogod, I'd like to see you spray finish old varnished oak cabinets with a tinted lacquer and see how that works out for you without back rolling your product into the grain. Like I've said before, every situation is different, like new cabinetry compared to repaints. MDF compared to Oak. No one is disputing that your doing a great job on your new cabinets. 👏 Love all your photos.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

The only argument I would personally have against a Peel Bond type primer in that situation is Peel Bond or similar thick elastomeric primers still can and do eventually fail, and the way they peel is not graceful in the slightest, big giant peeling sheets. What do you do next, more Peel Bond over and over? Oil of course can and will eventually fail as well, but likely taking more time than an equivalent latex primer. When oil fails, though, the hardness of oil, and it being smaller alligatored pieces are a lot easier to sand and feather in again, and the new oil primer itself is sandable and to a small extent acts a bit like a skimcoat in providing a sandable new surface to work with. An elastomeric primer has no ability to be sanded or feathered out well. Oil would give you the best looking finish in that scenario compared to a Peel Bond type product. 

There's plenty of situations where elastomeric is appropriate, but I think using a Peel Bond type product is essentially the end of the road on a house. Once you go to that option there's basically no turning back short of a full on strip, whereas oil and a normal solid stain or latex paint top coat gives you a normal maintenance cycle where you can do a fairly normal scrape, sand, prime, etc, type job, and not remediation of the old elastomeric coating in whatever amount of years it does take to eventually fail. There's plenty of situations where it is appropriate, and indeed on some houses there's no way you can reasonably get a long lasting job that looks even OK without a full strip down without using an elastomeric primer, and it's 100% appropriate there, especially if a budget is tight or you have environmental issues like lead or asbestos and can't disturb the surface much. (As we saw in another thread recently on here.) 

That said, I think many homeowners would want the ability to just have normal basically maintenance level paint jobs done every so many years that cost less money and take less time to do, rather than cover everything with a Peel Bond style primer and have it potentially last longer but then down the road have much more of a mess to deal with.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

celicaxx said:


> The only argument I would personally have against a Peel Bond type primer in that situation is Peel Bond or similar thick elastomeric primers still can and do eventually fail, and the way they peel is not graceful in the slightest, big giant peeling sheets. What do you do next, more Peel Bond over and over? Oil of course can and will eventually fail as well, but likely taking more time than an equivalent latex primer. When oil fails, though, the hardness of oil, and it being smaller alligatored pieces are a lot easier to sand and feather in again, and the new oil primer itself is sandable and to a small extent acts a bit like a skimcoat in providing a sandable new surface to work with. An elastomeric primer has no ability to be sanded or feathered out well. Oil would give you the best looking finish in that scenario compared to a Peel Bond type product.
> 
> There's plenty of situations where elastomeric is appropriate, but I think using a Peel Bond type product is essentially the end of the road on a house. Once you go to that option there's basically no turning back short of a full on strip, whereas oil and a normal solid stain or latex paint top coat gives you a normal maintenance cycle where you can do a fairly normal scrape, sand, prime, etc, type job, and not remediation of the old elastomeric coating in whatever amount of years it does take to eventually fail. There's plenty of situations where it is appropriate, and indeed on some houses there's no way you can reasonably get a long lasting job that looks even OK without a full strip down without using an elastomeric primer, and it's 100% appropriate there, especially if a budget is tight or you have environmental issues like lead or asbestos and can't disturb the surface much. (As we saw in another thread recently on here.)
> 
> That said, I think many homeowners would want the ability to just have normal basically maintenance level paint jobs done every so many years that cost less money and take less time to do, rather than cover everything with a Peel Bond style primer and have it potentially last longer but then down the road have much more of a mess to deal with.


I don't know what technical data you have to compare Peel Bond to elastomeric primers, but if you indeed do have that data, please share it.
I think it's apples to oranges. They are similar in thickness but chemical properties I suspect are different.
Please share specifics on that.

Also, please share real life examples, (pictures or articles) when Peel Bond failed. 
I would love to see that data.
Unless you are talking about Peel Bond being applied over very dusty surface or a surface being constantly moist, moisture coming from the inside of the wall. 
In that case every primer will fail.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

I read quite extensive journal by a long time historical houses restorer who experimented with various primers and he got really hooked on Peel Bond.
He wrote a blog about it, I used to have links to it, but it was on my previous computer.
I should dig that computer out and see if I can find it.
I'm not sure how I found his blog/articles, perhaps somebody here at PT posted several years ago, 
or maybe it came up in Google searches, but it was a very detailed and extremely informative.
I hope I can find it.

Peel Bond by XIM and Peel Stop by Zinsser are not the same products. Not in the same league. 
Peel Bond is a Rolls Royce and Peel Stop is a Chevy.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

IKnowNothing said:


> I read quite extensive journal by a long time historical houses restorer who experimented with various primers and he got really hooked on Peel Bond.
> He wrote a blog about it, I used to have links to it, but it was on my previous computer.
> I should dig that computer out and see if I can find it.
> I'm not sure how I found his blog/articles, perhaps somebody here at PT posted several years ago,
> ...


I can get a picture of SW's "Me too" primer called PrimeRX failing at my own house, albeit from moisture being trapped under the surface. It doesn't look pretty and it doesn't look like it could easily be feathered in. I kinda neglected you mainly referred to the soffits for Peel Bond vs the siding, but I think that's a potentially dangerous area for those products specifically as most thick elastomeric goopy products fail in horizontal application (ie, all the deck restore products) not vertical, as horizontal surfaces are more likely to trap water in them since water can't run down. My specific failure is on a deck railing, horizontally. 

I think the best of the elastomerics based on me actually using it and anecdotal reports is Mad Dog, but Mad Dog is about $100 a gallon now and imo doesn't even seem to be truly water based, you can't clean brushes and rollers with water after using it. If Peel Bond is like that, perhaps it's a better primer. Mad Dog does seem to last a long time, though. 

I just think elastomeric primers should be used with caution and as a last resort, not automatically. By how well they seal/entrap you can even cause moisture issues and rot (another painter complained of this to me when I brought them up, had to use a grinder to remove some on a house he was working on, and had moist rotting wood underneath due to the house's inability to breathe.) There's plenty of examples where I'd endorse them, but they're sort of a nuclear option.









A house like that, or a house like this:









It's totally appropriate to use them, and likely the best choice within a time and money constraint compared to stripping a whole house. Just I think it's basically negligent to think they should be automatically used in every scenario just because they look better. By using them you can be drastically screwing up the maintenance cycle of whatever you're working on, albeit with the promise/expectation of a few more years. If the thing is already at the end of its life cycle (these two houses I posted) then by all means, use them to get more life, but it's not for everything imo. 

Nice seeing you back, btw.


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Thank you celicaxx. If I'm not banned by the evening I will respond to your post in the evening. 
Interesting info you posted there.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

@celicaxx as you say becomes a maintence issue further down the road. I don't even stock a 'peel bond' primer. Shipnshore, fresh start 094 and mooreguard. The only one I would trust is triangle coatings neverpeel as it produces a breathable film and doesn't trap moisture


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> @celicaxx as you say becomes a maintence issue further down the road. I don't even stock a 'peel bond' primer. Shipnshore, fresh start 094 and mooreguard. The only one I would trust is triangle coatings neverpeel as it produces a breathable film and doesn't trap moisture


Peel Bond creates very breathable and very flexible film and it doesn't trap moisture.
Those are facts.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

IKnowNothing said:


> Peel Bond creates very breathable and very flexible film and it doesn't trap moisture.
> Those are facts.


FYI, This thread is posted in the Photos of projects section. It's more of a showcasing rather than a discussion. I'm pretty sure Holland wasn't asking for your advice on this. Just sayin.. But it's very clear that you like Peel Bond. We get it.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> FYI, This thread is posted in the Photos of projects section. It's more of a showcasing rather than a discussion. I'm pretty sure Holland wasn't asking for your advice on this. Just sayin.. But it's very clear that you like Peel Bond. We get it.


I don’t mind, not opposed to related discussion, even if I don't agree. I might learn something.

I don’t know much about Perl Bond.

Not appropriate for a Cedar house, but maybe for a pine board siding with layers and layers of failing paint…who knows. ?

I used Peel Stop once on old pine board siding that I did about 10 years ago. It’s difficult to ascertain how well it’s worked. that area hasn’t peeled again yet, but I doubt it would have if I just scraped and primed either.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Heres another example of someone who "painted cedar", instead of using a Solid Stain.

The paint almost always fails because moisture can easily get behind the paint film, pushing the paint off the surface. This is especially true of cedar shake and shingles.

It is my belief that Cedar should (almost) always be stained: first with a semi transparent oil-based stain, and then transitioning into a latex Solid Stain.

We removed as much of the failing paint film as we could, and then primed the raw cedar with a tinted Coverstain to block tannin bleed.

Finally we stained all the cedar shingles with a latex Solid Stain, and recommended to the homeowner that they continue to use Solid Stain in subsequent maintenance coats.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Beautiful! 👍


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## esmeralda (Sep 6, 2021)

It looks fantastic, and I agree with your decision to use a solid stain. The dark colour is my favourite.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Q - What's brown and sticky?
> 
> A - "Sticky" the mascot
> 
> View attachment 112592


If it wasn't for that little antenna I couldn't tell his head from his ass!


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