# Paint Failure



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I was called to look at a few "situations" yesterday, paint problems. 

One of the issues was a fairly large scale interior paint failure. 

I guess the previous painters got the paint on these exposed rafters pretty fast. So fast, they forgot to prime. 

Its rare to see full on failure on interior. Lack of primer seems to be the common theme when I see it happen. 

It will definitely take longer to fix this than it took the super fast previous painters to apply it. 

Kind of funny, I recently wrote about how primer has become a luxury item in painting, but it is still a good idea: 

http://digital.turn-page.com/i/136567/13


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Hard to tell in my iPhone but looks like the exposed wood is greyed out. Could have been left in the weather for too long before install, deteriorating the top layer of wood fibers. That's common on deck and new siding failures. Hard to imagine they'd leave out nice wood for an interior too long though. 
I love primer. Heck, we double prime a lot of the time.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That could be part of the problem, Damon. They probably didn't sand prior to their no primer application, and you can't see it in the pictures, but these were rolled.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

The T&G might have been sprayed first with a lacquer or something similar then B&R with the paint that's peeling. Could be incompatibility there. Also something whitish on the peels?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I was called to look at a few "situations" yesterday, paint problems.
> 
> One of the issues was a fairly large scale interior paint failure.
> 
> ...



Scott - I was never taught to sand bare wood prior to priming, unless it was nasty - usually oil coverstain, and then sand down all the raised grain. 

Do you sand bare wood when incorporating a latex primer instead of oil? Or do you always sand? I am talking new construction interiors for the most part. 

What I have done when I use latex primers on interior trim, doors - is to sand it down if there is some funky raised grain pattern that I don't like - especially since it's hard to sand most latex primers - if the surface was acceptable in appearance, I would wipe down the entire surface with either Wilbond surface prep or wood cleaner and while the wood is still drenching with this solvent, lay on the latex primer right over it. And i've had outstanding results with adhesion.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

This just goes to show as an example of the value of this industry. 'It's just painting!', until a HO or GC finds themselves looking at something like this. 

-Plenty of that around here as well. Mostly on exterior though. Handrails, pickets and some of the trim higher off of the ground. 

-Of course it is a failure on the painters to first of all not prime before paint. It's also the GC that prefers the cheaper bid from the painter that took advantage of every shortcut possible. 

-This might not be a big showing of good integrity on my part, but I don't mind a bit seeing this kind of thing come full circle and bite a GC in the rear. When faced with a T&M option to remedy..... lol :thumbsup: They can learn the hard way all they want.


The 3 coat system has become luxury status. Too many cheapskates balk at that cost, let alone 2 prime and 2 finish as SHOULD be done. Sanding wood prior to prime...... Yes, of course it is the right thing to do. Now give me some money and I'll do it. Shet falls downhill. It starts up top though.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Scott - I was never taught to sand bare wood prior to priming, unless it was nasty - usually oil coverstain, and then sand down all the raised grain.
> 
> Do you sand bare wood when incorporating a latex primer instead of oil? Or do you always sand? I am talking new construction interiors for the most part.
> 
> What I have done when I use latex primers on interior trim, doors - is to sand it down if there is some funky raised grain pattern that I don't like - especially since it's hard to sand most latex primers - if the surface was acceptable in appearance, I would wipe down the entire surface with either Wilbond surface prep or wood cleaner and while the wood is still drenching with this solvent, lay on the latex primer right over it. And i've had outstanding results with adhesion.


Dan 

Thats a good question. 

On new construction, the raw wood in the trim packages (case, base, crown, etc) all ends up getting sanded in the process of filling and sanding nail holes, so we do sand all of the surface in that process to create an even playing field for the primer - for adhesion, and to create a surface that is the same throughout. Its also generally a good idea (imo) even on framing lumber as in the original post here to sand the entire surface to remove or at least scuff the mill glaze and also just to quickly remove any foreign matter. Anytime we are asked to paint framing grade lumber, we do sand. Sanding is pretty quick and easy these days, but I can see how it would be a step that alot of people might prefer to skip. I just don't see a good reason not to go the extra mile on initial prep of new stock. You really only get one clean shot at it. Especially when the customer ends up faced with a strip and redo scenario like this one. In the context of the room these exposed rafters are in, its a real bummer.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd lean towards mill glaze.

Or the lid was clear coated first. Is the failure all near the T&G?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> . Also something whitish on the peels?





I'm seeing that too. Kinda looks like it was primed white. Maybe just shadows/glare from the pic. 
Whatever it is, its coming off down to the wood. 

Is the peeling isolated to that one beam?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The peeling is widespread and present on all sides of all the rafters in varying degrees.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Scott - I can understand where you are coming from, especially when filling nail-holes, my trim gets all sanded down 100% as well - but more from the standpoint that I am trying to sand down spackle and the result from overlapping motions everything gets sanded. But I've never had issues with oil primer and not sanding bare wood prior. I know you guys have used latex primers that are seemingly sandable - although in my limited experience, I have never come across a sandable latex primer. So I tended to sand out raised grain in wood not for adhesion but to prevent ugly raised grain coming through the finish - as my latex primers have been impossible to sand down once in place. 

As to that frame grade lumber - stuff like that is almost what I'd consider for exterior prep - where I pressure wash wood surfaces for prep, and an orbital sand to flatten out all the raised grain prior to priming.

Not to sound like a hypocrite - but there are finishes I use that I would never prime before hand. A lot of guys use solid latex stains direct to bare wood, what's the point of priming - otherwise just choose a flat sheen exterior paint in that case. As well my favorite porch and floor paint from California I think sticks way better than primer does. So for a few products I don't believe in primer - even though I still think behr and paint and prime in the same can is b/s. So I guess I am a little hypocritical.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ok so good prep first before painting and stuff.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

GC must have done his research by googling cheap painter.com


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

that's what primer in one gets you


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

that white layer underneath looks like a primer base coat to me but cant tell from a computer also how stiff are those pieces of rolled pant?? im guessing that **** cracked off to some degree .......I could paint raw interior 2x4 with latex finish an it would last 100 yrs ....something pushed that paint off.. what ? I don't know but interior paint just doesn't just jump off of wood all by itself. 


im guessing moisture under the paint ..maybe no heat during construction an let sit for a while? ...crap wood these days cause all kinds of paint failures so my moneys on bad wood not ''not being primed'


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Like Ole, I would suspect moisture behind the paint film because it is peeling all the way back to the substrate. And it is peeling in varying 
degrees.
Have you checked the moisture content?


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

literally hundreds if not thousands of variables involved in a paints failure yet only 1 culprit ''wasn't primed''.........what are the odds of that ?? 

this is one of those moments when I want to reach through the computer... im talkin a BIG 5 fingers spread out flat open hand slap comin down from way up over my head ''ohh **** mom just saw my report card'' with knee raised up like WHAT !!! whammm poww bang !!! batman style ....NOW WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED SON?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Its primed or it would not be white behind the peels. I'll bet they were pre-primed from the factory? That stuff is usually junk and will give way.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Its primed or it would not be white behind the peels. I'll bet they were pre-primed from the factory? That stuff is usually junk and will give way.


yup i agree an have seen that on exterior trim but never interior .... who knows how they built that home. could have finished the trim outside then let it sit in a shed or somthing... constant temp changes etc etc.
junk primer or no primer at all will not cause finsih paint to jump off of wood unless influenced by other factors


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Every project like this is as good as a Nancy Drew mystery.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Reminds me of a conversation I had today with a friend about whether or not paint would bond to a surface. He said " Hard to tell, it's paint.......sometimes it has a mind of it's own."


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> Reminds me of a conversation I had today with a friend about whether or not paint would bond to a surface. He said " Hard to tell, it's paint.......sometimes it has a mind of it's own."


Amen. Some of the cheapest work I've done still looks perfect, where as other work I've done where I heat gunned linseed oil into bare wood before priming - oiled primed, caulked, latex primed over oil and 2 coats of the best paint money can buy and I have had failures.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Like Ole, I would suspect moisture behind the paint film because it is peeling all the way back to the substrate. And it is peeling in varying
> degrees.
> Have you checked the moisture content?


It's probably at equilibrium MC ...now. I'm wondering if it was a lot wetter when it was installed and the paint failed as the wood dried. 

We've seen a lot of builders who don't know jack about controlling moisture levels during construction.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Amen. Some of the cheapest work I've done still looks perfect, where as other work I've done where I heat gunned linseed oil into bare wood before priming - oiled primed, caulked, latex primed over oil and 2 coats of the best paint money can buy and I have had failures.


Why latex primer over oil primer?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> It's probably at equilibrium MC ...now. I'm wondering if it was a lot wetter when it was installed and the paint failed as the wood dried.
> 
> We've seen a lot of builders who don't know jack about controlling moisture levels during construction.


That would be my best guess from seeing the pics.
And concerning builders not knowing about moisture levels,
some don't know and some don't care.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Why latex primer over oil primer?


There was an uber high end company that was doing high end paint jobs and getting like 40k average per home. And their routine was an oil prime, especially spot priming bare wood, then they did all the caulking, then primed again with tinted latex primer. the idea of the latex prime was to go over the whole house with a more flexible primer, introduce pigment , and I guess an older way of building up film thickness - and then two coats of paint. 

I guess two coats of primer are better than one? So I copied it. I did that method on a real bad peeler back in '05, house would peel massively 2 years after every repaint. 8 years later it's still in perfect shape. Although I only did one topcoat of paint over the latex tinted primer - but still. 

With newer products like Maddog, peelbond and other wacky products this is probably very outdated and heavy on the labor. But the homes that I followed this process got much better results.

Oh yeah - this was also the transition time for spraying vs. brush - because there were a lot of failures with guys who did only spraying with no backbrush. The idea of the oil prime followed by caulking and then the latex tinted primer was to build film and do it all by brushing, so paint/primer film really got pushed into all the cracks and crevices. And it's at this point that it's believed that further application of paint applied by brushing isn't going to achieve anything more - so you can just spray two coats without back brushing onto a very stable sealed surface and have a very good amount of millage of paint.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Every project like this is as good as a Nancy Drew mystery.


I was thinking Hardy Boys. They're hot on the trail. 3 more commercial breaks and we should have this wrapped up nicely.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> .... who knows how they built that home. could have finished the trim outside then let it sit in a shed or somthing... constant temp changes etc etc.
> junk primer or no primer at all will not cause finsih paint to jump off of wood unless influenced by other factors


 I tend to agree. Very possible there was no heat and it was painted with a waterborne product and it froze rather than dried. 

I have seen many interior failures and problems in production built homes(and even some custom built) where there was winter spackling/painting and no central heat. It will hang on there for a while, but can come back to bite you down the road.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

They should have used bear.


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Workaholic said:


> They should have used bear.


I know this is an old thread -sorry :blink: feel free to ignore the following.but. As part of an exterior job I'm on at a 140 year old house I need to prime and paint the most beautiful pine window: brand new triple casement 3 over 1s with storms, all handmade by a local carpenter to match the original window. The wood is perfect (guy triple dries it, mills it and sands it 6000 times himself) I've never seen window putty so perfect, this guy is an amazing craftsman. I have one big window and then a couple of storms to prepare so I'm thinking spot prime the knots with bin spray and then prime with coverstain, maybe twice?- sanding before topcoats (which will be Aura). At the brewery the HOs own they have other perfect windows that they are getting another guy to paint. He stopped by yesterday and we were talking about what we were going to do: he says he's going to shellac the windows all over and then paint them up with the behr all-in-one. ! I think he might as well pee on them and call it a day.
Good experiment though we'll see what happens. Although I think the blood drained out of my face when he said behr etc so maybe he'll rethink?
If anyone is reading this, how would you prepare the windows?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ptbopainter said:


> If anyone is reading this, how would you prepare the windows?


A long oil primer and two coats of Benjamin Moore's Moore Glow.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Yea get the slow dry oil primer on their. Bin the knots if you must.


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> A long oil primer and two coats of Benjamin Moore's Moore Glow.


What's an example of a long oil primer?
Also what do you like about the moore glow vs the aura ext?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

ptbopainter said:


> I know this is an old thread -sorry :blink: feel free to ignore the following.but. As part of an exterior job I'm on at a 140 year old house I need to prime and paint the most beautiful pine window: brand new triple casement 3 over 1s with storms, all handmade by a local carpenter to match the original window. The wood is perfect (guy triple dries it, mills it and sands it 6000 times himself) I've never seen window putty so perfect, this guy is an amazing craftsman. I have one big window and then a couple of storms to prepare so I'm thinking spot prime the knots with bin spray and then prime with coverstain, maybe twice?- sanding before topcoats (which will be Aura). At the brewery the HOs own they have other perfect windows that they are getting another guy to paint. He stopped by yesterday and we were talking about what we were going to do: he says he's going to shellac the windows all over and then paint them up with the behr all-in-one. ! I think he might as well pee on them and call it a day.
> Good experiment though we'll see what happens. Although I think the blood drained out of my face when he said behr etc so maybe he'll rethink?
> If anyone is reading this, how would you prepare the windows?


Hard to beat semi gloss Marquee!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ptbopainter said:


> What's an example of a long oil primer?
> Also what do you like about the moore glow vs the aura ext?


Benjamin Moore Moorwhite Penetrating Primer

With Aura Exterior you get very good color retention in the long run. Compare to something like Duration


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

mudbone said:


> Hard to beat semi gloss Marquee!


Pfff is been out only a few months.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ptbopainter said:


> I know this is an old thread -sorry :blink: feel free to ignore the following.but. As part of an exterior job I'm on at a 140 year old house I need to prime and paint the most beautiful pine window: brand new triple casement 3 over 1s with storms, all handmade by a local carpenter to match the original window. The wood is perfect (guy triple dries it, mills it and sands it 6000 times himself) I've never seen window putty so perfect, this guy is an amazing craftsman. I have one big window and then a couple of storms to prepare so I'm thinking spot prime the knots with bin spray and then prime with coverstain, maybe twice?- sanding before topcoats (which will be Aura). At the brewery the HOs own they have other perfect windows that they are getting another guy to paint. He stopped by yesterday and we were talking about what we were going to do: he says he's going to shellac the windows all over and then paint them up with the behr all-in-one. ! I think he might as well pee on them and call it a day.
> Good experiment though we'll see what happens. Although I think the blood drained out of my face when he said behr etc so maybe he'll rethink?
> If anyone is reading this, how would you prepare the windows?


Research from the forest products lab or something like that shows using a Wood Preservative Water Repellent coating (WRP) first, then a primer, then paint is your best bet. It minimizes expansion / contraction of wood due yo moisture, thus helping to prevent the minute cracks which allow water to get in a wreak havoc. The only one I know of currently that is paintable is Woodlife Classic by Wolman. I get it at our local lumberyard. Wolman is a major player in preservatives and treated wood. Anyways this product is now WB so I would follow with a WB primer like BM 046 and then Aura. 
The WRP is only for when you have bare wood. And must be a paintable type for obvious reasons.


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Damon T said:


> Research from the forest products lab or something like that shows using a Wood Preservative Water Repellent coating (WRP) first, then a primer, then paint is your best bet. It minimizes expansion / contraction of wood due yo moisture, thus helping to prevent the minute cracks which allow water to get in a wreak havoc. The only one I know of currently that is paintable is Woodlife Classic by Wolman. I get it at our local lumberyard. Wolman is a major player in preservatives and treated wood. Anyways this product is now WB so I would follow with a WB primer like BM 046 and then Aura.
> The WRP is only for when you have bare wood. And must be a paintable type for obvious reasons.


Nace said this on March 13 2012: "The US Forestry service has always recommended a wood stabilizer prior to priming and top coating. California Paints use to make a Wood Stabilizer that was a clear, thin, oil base product. The forestry service did extensive studies using all kinds of systems and exposures and wood that used this system by far lasted the longest. Especially if it was coated on all six sides."

This sounds really exciting. It's been very dry here for a few days so I wouldn't have to worry about sealing water in and I do need to prime the window and storms etc. on all sides before it gets installed so... what's not to like? I'll look for the Wolman sealer and keep my fingers crossed that someone has it! Thanks a lot for the info, I'll trade in the oil fresh start for the WB. I did already fill the holes and bin the knots so with any luck that won't interfere with the absorption? It probably will. 
I love this kind of info! :thumbup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We are working on a rather large project, 2 houses 6 barns all have real vbad paint failure due to no primer, the last painter took the paint from one of the houses and used that as his primer on the other house and vise versa he did the same with the barns. So far 5 days of paint shaving and power sanding back to bare wood. The houses were built in 1720 with lots of original clapboards, the barns were built in the very early 1800's but have been resided once in the past. 
Why do painters not use primer this is pretty much a basic part of our trade.
Full oil primer on the barns, double coating primer on the hoses.
I love my job.


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> We are working on a rather large project, 2 houses 6 barns all have real vbad paint failure due to no primer, the last painter took the paint from one of the houses and used that as his primer on the other house and vise versa he did the same with the barns. So far 5 days of paint shaving and power sanding back to bare wood. The houses were built in 1720 with lots of original clapboards, the barns were built in the very early 1800's but have been resided once in the past.
> Why do painters not use primer this is pretty much a basic part of our trade.
> Full oil primer on the barns, double coating primer on the hoses.
> I love my job.


That would be worth before and after photos for sure! Sounds epic, good thing they got the right person this time


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

ptbopainter said:


> That would be worth before and after photos for sure! Sounds epic, good thing they got the right person this time


I willpost pics when we finish the first house and pics as we complete the others buildings. I don't think we will complete them all before the temps get to cold. We are not taking on any other jobs as of now until we either finish or start the winter work.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ptbopainter said:


> Nace said this on March 13 2012: "The US Forestry service has always recommended a wood stabilizer prior to priming and top coating. California Paints use to make a Wood Stabilizer that was a clear, thin, oil base product. The forestry service did extensive studies using all kinds of systems and exposures and wood that used this system by far lasted the longest. Especially if it was coated on all six sides." This sounds really exciting. It's been very dry here for a few days so I wouldn't have to worry about sealing water in and I do need to prime the window and storms etc. on all sides before it gets installed so... what's not to like? I'll look for the Wolman sealer and keep my fingers crossed that someone has it! Thanks a lot for the info, I'll trade in the oil fresh start for the WB. I did already fill the holes and bin the knots so with any luck that won't interfere with the absorption? It probably will. I love this kind of info! :thumbup:


The WRP won't penetrate over the bin. Not sure if that will be a problem or not. There is also PPG Permanizer Plus which is a Wood Stabilizer. It can be put over coatings but also is amazing at sealing wood. It doesn't have the anti rot properties of the WRP, but is still a great product. I would still put the 046 over it tinted towards the finish color.


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Damon T said:


> The WRP won't penetrate over the bin. Not sure if that will be a problem or not. There is also PPG Permanizer Plus which is a Wood Stabilizer. It can be put over coatings but also is amazing at sealing wood. It doesn't have the anti rot properties of the WRP, but is still a great product. I would still put the 046 over it tinted towards the finish color.


Thanks for the info. I caulked too but I think if I can get my hands on a paintable WRP and sand the bin spots it will be worth applying it for sure. Now that I google paintable WRP it's everywhere! There's a homemade one you can do too with mineral spirits, varnish and paraffin wax. I leave for my quest now. I'm not optimistic about finding the Woodlife here (in Peterborough, Ontario), but there are a few places I can look for a WRP: HD, lumber store etc.
Thanks again!

Megan


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ptbopainter said:


> Thanks for the info. I caulked too but I think if I can get my hands on a paintable WRP and sand the bin spots it will be worth applying it for sure. Now that I google paintable WRP it's everywhere! There's a homemade one you can do too with mineral spirits, varnish and paraffin wax. I leave for my quest now. I'm not optimistic about finding the Woodlife here (in Peterborough, Ontario), but there are a few places I can look for a WRP: HD, lumber store etc. Thanks again! Megan


Here's the TDS for the Woodlife 
http://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/Di...life Classic Clear Wood Preservative TDS.ashx

The thinned down varnish isn't the same thing. The TDS does say to do all caulking etc after applying the product. You might be able to carefully apply the stuff and then wife the excess of caulked and spot primed areas. I'm just not sure as I haven't tried 
that before. At this point I might be leaning more towards the Ppg Permanizer plus as it can be applied over caulking and spot primers. 
Here's a link for a guy who's done extensive work Permanizer. 
http://rogcad.com/painting/contractors

Good luck


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Damon T said:


> Here's the TDS for the Woodlife
> http://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/Di...life Classic Clear Wood Preservative TDS.ashx
> 
> The thinned down varnish isn't the same thing. The TDS does say to do all caulking etc after applying the product. You might be able to carefully apply the stuff and then wife the excess of caulked and spot primed areas. I'm just not sure as I haven't tried
> ...


Just an update... 
No luck getting the woodlife classic, I checked a BUNCH of places and all anyone has is the copper naphthenate/zinc naphthenate preservative. I didn't see a waterproofer that was paintable anywhere.
So I went with the copper naphthenate stuff and put that on the window and made it bright green! That stuff would knock a herd of buffalo on their butts! Some products say: wait until it's dry to paint, mine said to wait for 72 hours, and another place on the internet suggested you wait a few weeks until the wood is weathered a bit to paint it! So I opted for the 72 hours and then primed with thinned fresh start oil primer. I'll prime it again before the topcoats. 

Funny thing: I asked the folks at the BM here about a long oil primer (I wanted to go with an oil over the preservative because it isn't WB) and they said just use the reg fresh start oil. But... there's a fresh start wood primer that takes way longer to dry that would have been perfect which they don't have and didn't mention! Odd that they wouldn't...?

I wonder if the PPG permanizer is a lot like the Zinsser peel stop, they seem similar. I have the peel stop that I'll be using elsewhere on this house.

I did pick up this new PPG product called _Rescue It_ to put on the window ledges around their sunroom where the wood has weathered quite a bit. 
http://www.olympic.com/products/olympic-rescue-it-wood-and-concrete-resurfacer

It's gritty and thick. A bit weird for the ledges, more for floors I think but I'm curious to see how it all works out. There is some squirrel traffic around the windows so it's kind of like a floor to some creatures. One coat has filled up the cracks pretty well, I'm going to cut the second coat with the top coat paint, then do a straight top coat. 

Thanks again for all of your help, it's all coming together!


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