# a real painting question



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I have 50 or so metal windows to paint.Last year somebody else re glazed them all and took off when it got too cold and never returned. He seemed to do a good job but after a year a lot of the glazing is falling out as it never got primed and painted. Anyway, I know how to do wood windows, oil prime first, glaze, let it skin over for a week or so, oil prime, paint. My question is do I need to oil prime the metal frames to re glaze? Do you really need to oil prime the skinned over glazing ( Dap 33). I would think so but just have never done metal and don't know for sure. The home owners already have Duration for a finish( not my choice) and the windows are currently painted with oil ( back in 2004). My local SW guy says to sand it all down, prime the old glazing with whatever( 123) and paint away. Sounds too easy to me.
Ideas?
Thanks


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Chris,

I have never changed my approach for metal windows. I paint the glazing at the same timing with the same product as I would wood windows. (too bad I'm not talking about Mike, then I could say "...same as Woodland would wood windows" :lol: :icon_lol: )

As to prepping the muntins, I use Pentetrol for wood and also metal. I use it for metal and allow it to tack up to give the surface a little grip - kinda like R-35. 

certainly others will differ - after all, they are painters with their own successful techniques.

and you better hurry, this weather won't hold long :no:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

I would stick with oil like A-100 primer (I forget what they call it now) then finish with Duration


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Did some for a guy 4 or 5 years ago and used Gripper for the primer both before and after glazing. They still look great.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I just used a product called aqua glaze for the first time a couple weeks ago. Its alot like working with dap 33 but according the manufacturer you don't have to prime before hand. Whatever. I primed with penatrol. The biggest benefit is that this stuff is paintable in less than an hour. I really liked it and will definitely use it again


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I always have used linseed thinned to prime wood. Can't help with the metal sorry. 

Might want to pose this over at CT and catch some of the glaziers opinions.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Are these metal (steel) casement windows Chris?

Any rust?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ok, so you got:

1) metal windows that were last painted with an oil

2) you have to reglaze areas first

If you sanded the windows down, you could prime with a waterbase bonding primer like bullseye 123. 

For the new glazing you do, I'd suggest spot priming that area with an oil primer, and I would suggest coverstain since it will dry faster than a long oil, giving you a quicker time to get the finish coat going.

If you want to simplify it, you could just use coverstain to prime them all.

My 2cents


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Are these metal (steel) casement windows Chris?
> 
> Any rust?


 
yes and yes


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Did some for a guy 4 or 5 years ago and used Gripper for the primer both before and after glazing. They still look great.


I like this idea:thumbsup:

Just not sure about rust


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> yes and yes


Get rid of it if you can.
Wirebrush and sandpaper will help. I've got a (cheapo) 4" angle grinder that works pretty good w/a sandpaper flap-disc.

I've also used several different rust converters..but it seems like the rust shows back up anyhow.

Ironclad rust inhibitive primer also helps, and holds onto glazing nicely too IMHO

Don't use a water-based primer on the steel.. rust loves it but you won't.

I don't normally prime new (2 week old) glazing, but go ahead if you want.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

oh yeah, I'm sure you already know..
but make sure the glazing seals to the glass across the bottom sash. (light wet-finger-slide @the end works best for me)


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Get rid of it if you can.
> Wirebrush and sandpaper will help. I've got a (cheapo) 4" angle grinder that works pretty good w/a sandpaper flap-disc.
> 
> I've also used several different rust converters..but it seems like the rust shows back up anyhow.
> ...


 
Damn guys at SW said to go ahead and use 123


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

If there is rust, oil like coverstain will seal out the rust longer.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Damn guys at SW said to go ahead and use 123


I'm not gonna argue..go ahead.

See if I care.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Seriously..if and when you have time..test it yourself.

Put some 123 on some rusted metal, and Ironclad (or even Coverstain oil) on some rust next to it.

Depending on the humidity...you might even be able to tell the difference in a day or 2.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Seriously..if and when you have time..test it yourself.
> 
> Put some 123 on some rusted metal, and Ironclad (or even Coverstain oil) on some rust next to it.
> 
> Depending on the humidity...you might even be able to tell the difference in a day or 2.


 
My  was not intended for you, it was for the a hole @ SW.I had oil in my mind also, it only makes sense. I have some of the brown rust olium for rusty metal that I will RE prime over the 123.
Fooking guy @ SW pisses me off big time.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> My  was not intended for you, it was for the a hole @ SW.I had oil in my mind also, it only makes sense. I have some of the brown rust olium for rusty metal that I will RE prime over the 123.
> Fooking guy @ SW pisses me off big time.


Easy there chris..

I don't use much 123, so I was a little apprehensive about the test-claim I made last night.
(I'm tend to lump all water-based primers into the same crap-category)

Your guys @ SW probably just went by the "Rust inhibiting" claim on the can.
(in the TDS, it says to remove rust first) 

For a bunch of years I did the exterior maintenance painting on 3, 3 story apartment buildings.
2 of them had steel catwalks and handrailings, and the other had 110 sets of steel casement windows.

Every year I did battle with rust, and almost every year I'd try a new approach.
Removing all rust worked best..
But places I could get to w/my grinder..like the corrugated steel on the catwalk undersides, I'd try different primers and converters.

So my (limited) knowledge of rust has come after about 25 years of hands-on frustration.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Throw that SW guy on the ground


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

rust is cancer, it will always return, even if coated with a rusty primer or converter. Cancers need to be cut out. 

And sanding would prolly scratch the glass.

I suppose if time/money were not an issue, the best way would be to protect the glass with like duct tape, take a wire disc on a drill to the rust, then sand even better, coat with a converter, then a rusty metal primer, and then glaze. 

But who wants to pay for the most betterest way? Knowing most HO's, I'd say knock the large rust flakes off, convert, prime with oil, and glaze. I bet you'll get seven years out of most of it.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Why is steve providing useful, on topic advice? I think this is an imposter. Can somebody ban this pretender???


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Try rust destroyer. SW should be able to order it for you.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

daArch said:


> I'd say knock the large rust flakes off, convert, prime with oil, and glaze. I bet you'll get seven years out of most of it.


The doc got you on optimism pills too?



DeanV said:


> Why is steve providing useful, on topic advice? I think this is an imposter. Can somebody ban this pretender???


I only joined in on this because rust is no friend of mine, and chrisn is.

well, maybe more appropriate to say; I like chrisn more than I like rust.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> rust is cancer, it will always return, even if coated with a rusty primer or converter. Cancers need to be cut out.
> 
> And sanding would prolly scratch the glass.
> 
> ...


 
Hell, I am not even going that far but I will sand off the worst of it, oil prime with the rust primer crap and finish with the Duration they have. All the work I did yesterday will have to be re done @ my expense, forkin SW guy sucks


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Try rust destroyer. SW should be able to order it for you.


Never tried that, SL.
From the looks of the can lip...I'm guessing it brushes on just as about as easily as tar?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Not my can, just thought it was a cool pic when I searched for one to post. Its oil so you can reduce it to your liking and application methods needs. 

Old post about it on my site here.


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## DB_1 (Oct 10, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> Try rust destroyer. SW should be able to order it for you.


Always wondered about that stuff myself. I've seen it at Home Depot before.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Not my can, just thought it was a cool pic when I searched for one to post. Its oil so you can reduce it to your liking and application methods needs.
> 
> Old post about it on my site here.


Nice site.

I'd have to go look, but I'm pretty sure Ironclad has a "do not thin" on it.

I don't anyhow.

It's one of the (very) few things an old, stiff, black Chinese bristle is good for.


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