# Is It A Violation if......?



## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I ran into something the other day that I hadn't encountered before. I looked at a paint work project in an older home(probably built before WW2) for a GC I have never worked with before. It is an extensive project resulting from extensive remodel work. All existing windows have been replaced . All the existing old plaster walls surrounding the new windows will need to be extensively patched,(new windows smaller all the way around). In addition, a large 2 story extension has been bumped out the back. Other extensive work is on going in the basement and throughout the home, including some interior demolition and remodel. I would be shocked if the place wasn't loaded with lead paint, not only on trim/woodwork, but ceiling & walls as well.

I asked the GC directly what he has been doing about the "lead" paint concern. After some conversation he told me he is *not* certified, but his window guy is. My instincts are telling me this is not something I want to get involved in, even though we are fully certified. There are small children in the house and I even saw an infant in a room where the windows had been changed and the work was reasonably cleaned up, but the plaster walls were still open around the windows and there is flaking, jagged paint around the missing plaster. Should the patching have been completed before the room was reoccupied?(according to law-not common sense)

Getting to the main question.... Is it a violation on the part of the GC, even if all the work performed on the job is by certified subs? My understanding was that the GC had to be certified regardless and keep and maintain records accordingly as well as any of the subs that participate in any activity that disturbs lead based paint. I don't see how this guy could contract a project in a home of this age that obviously contains lead paint, and not be RRP certified. 

Am I wrong on this? I've encountered situations where a certified GC may cheap out and bring in an uncertified painter, but I have not been in the situation where the painter(me) was certified and the GC was not. This guy is not some illegal. There are building permits posted etc., but he doesn't touch the job. It is all done with his cell phone and subs.

Anybody else encounter a situation like this? Thoughts? Comments?


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## user12499 (Dec 28, 2011)

When in doubt.... Run the other way!


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Millerspropainting said:


> When in doubt.... Run the other way!


My question really wasn't "what to do?", but thanks anyway......


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

My understanding is that the GC should be certified even if he isn't directly doing the work and that the work is already being preformed by certified Subs. The GC is ultimately responsible for the job.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

If the GC had the components inspected by a certified renovator, lead inspector or risk assessor and no lead based paint was found, he doesn't have to be certified.

If no inspection, than at a minimum, the GC has to be a Lead Safe Certified Firm and appoint a certified renovator (one) to oversee the project.

I personally don't run away from these projects. Instead, I add big bucks and make it worth my while.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Dean CRCNA said:


> If the GC had the components inspected by a certified renovator, lead inspector or risk assessor and no lead based paint was found, he doesn't have to be certified.
> 
> If no inspection, than at a minimum, the GC has to be a Lead Safe Certified Firm and appoint a certified renovator (one) to oversee the project.
> 
> I personally don't run away from these projects. Instead, I add big bucks and make it worth my while.


Thanks Dean, my thinking exactly. 

I figured to do it absolutely to the letter and properly(and then some). He told me "my numbers didn't work for him". It's a shame. There are small children there at risk and it would have been a nice January project. It's just another screwed up job.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

CliffK said:


> Thanks Dean, my thinking exactly.
> 
> I figured to do it absolutely to the letter and properly(and then some). He told me "my numbers didn't work for him". It's a shame. There are small children there at risk and it would have been a nice January project. It's just another screwed up job.


Number one, I can almost guarantee that the kids and adults have elevated blood lead levels.

Most likely, since you brought up RRP, he wasn't going to use you and probably never would. Since this is the case, I would have given the homeowner the Renovate Right and then quoted ...

1. Time and material ($50, $75 or even $100 an hour) to do clean-up on the entire home (unless an inspection report was given to me. I would also have required a clearance test.

2. Once that was done, I would have priced out my work and taken proper precautions (charging good money).

Since I feel I was blackballed even before giving an estimate, there would be nothing to lose in pressuring him to use me.

At least you could mail her a Renovate Right (without your name showing up) and warn the parents that way.

_We've had several of these situations down here and I charge premium to keep his butt from getting into trouble. Easy money and your are helping the family_


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree Dean. I think the fact that I am certified scared him away. That and the fact that he can get someone in there for less than half. Unfortunately ,I did not get a chance to meet the homeowner. There was a nanny there with the children when I did the walk thru with the GC's job super.
I like your style Dean. I don't know what's worse, the ignorance or the arrogance on the part of these noncompliant guys. It's bad enough if you are taking some short cuts after the fact, but to contract a very large involved project where there are small children and not even be a Certified Firm!


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Dean CRCNA said:


> Number one, I can almost guarantee that the kids and adults have elevated blood lead levels.
> 
> Sorry, I don't agree with you on this Dean. I have been a bit reckless in the past 34 years as a painter not wearing a dust mask when sandpapering old paint. I had my doctor take a lead test on me a year ago out of curiosity and the results were very slightly elevated levels of lead in my body, but not anything to be overly concerned about. While we should take precautions with lead paint, only the U.S has this strict guidelines. We don't have any lead regulations in Australia, only that we should use dust extraction on our electric sanders.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Dean CRCNA said:
> 
> 
> > Number one, I can almost guarantee that the kids and adults have elevated blood lead levels.
> ...


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## user12499 (Dec 28, 2011)

CliffK said:


> My question really wasn't "what to do?", but thanks anyway......


No problem!


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Sorry, I don't agree with you on this Dean. I have been a bit reckless in the past 34 years as a painter not wearing a dust mask when sandpapering old paint. I had my doctor take a lead test on me a year ago out of curiosity and the results were very slightly elevated levels of lead in my body, but not anything to be overly concerned about. While we should take precautions with lead paint, only the U.S has this strict guidelines. We don't have any lead regulations in Australia, only that we should use dust extraction on our electric sanders.


We can solve this. Go sand some "known" lead based paint and a week later have a lead test  :no: Don't really do it.

But if you did, you would see your levels of lead shoot up. After a couple of weeks they will fall back down, so you will have to time it very closely. 

Now with you being an adult, it would take around a 1000% more lead to get up to 5 mcg/dl than it would a child. This is because a child absorbs lead into the blood stream at a larger percent than an adult. Plus, a child has less blood than an adult, so a little bit goes along way (or gives them a higher mcg/dl).

So, if you breathed in enough lead dust to get your blood levels up to 5 mcg/dl the same amount you breathed in could get 11 small children brain damage.

Also, be aware that out of 100 jobs, the average painter works on may be 25 pre-1978 (depending where you are located) out of that only 12 may have lead based paint somewhere in the house. Out of that, may be only 2 will have lead based paint on the component you are working on.

So, you would have to take a ton of blood test each year to catch it at the time you are actually sanding some lead based paint.

Note: If your blood lead level was 5 mcg/dl or there about when you took your blood test ... this is now the line where it starts affecting adults.

_Just blabbing since I'm bored _


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Perhaps you are technically right Dean, but I still feel everyone is overly cautious with lead paint. I mostly do older period homes where stripping off weatherboards is my specialty. There usually is lead paint under several layers of acrylic. I just used a grinder until a year ago, now the paint shaver with dust extraction is the way to go.
And now with upgrading to the paint shaver, I have probably saved poisoning myself with lead dust.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

As they say, it's all fun and games until someone's eye gets poked out.


You all who have not been personally affected by lead poisoning may think there is minimal risk, as did I.

Until.......................


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

So, tell us more ? Did you get lead poisoned ?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Brian C said:


> So, tell us more ? Did you get lead poisoned ?


 
Old story, do a search:jester:


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Perhaps you are technically right Dean, but I still feel everyone is overly cautious with lead paint. I mostly do older period homes where stripping off weatherboards is my specialty. There usually is lead paint under several layers of acrylic. I just used a grinder until a year ago, now the paint shaver with dust extraction is the way to go.
> And now with upgrading to the paint shaver, I have probably saved poisoning myself with lead dust.


Several painters a day have to be sent to the clinic or hospital because of lead poisoning. Painters as a group get lead poisoned more than all other construction groups combined.

But here is the point I'm trying to make ...

A painter sands off some lead based paint. Being an adult, he is less affected than a child would be. Possibly, he breathed in enough lead to spike his blood to 20 mcg/dl, but within weeks, his blood will drop back down. During his work, he may have dumped 100,000 mcg/ft2 of lead dust. Of course he cleans it up with a normal vac and the A/C on (spreading it around the house). Let's say he did clean up most of it though and there is only 10,000 mcg/ft2 left.

The painter gets paid and goes away, but the dust is still there. Everyday the little kid is breathing it in.

Painter got a short term spike, but the kid gets a constant long term amount as the child gets a hit on a daily basis for years.

A big difference.

Painter walks away feeling as good as he did when he started. Since he "feels" good, he makes the assumption that LBP isn't hurting anyone else. He believes that LBP is no problem because he "feels" good.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Dean is taking the correct view here; it not about OUR lead levels, it is about our client's children, and the damage that lead does to their developing nervous systems. Children are little, it doesnt take a lot of lead to cause damage, they are low to the ground, and constantly put their fingers in their mouths- instant lead exposure.
RRP is good. Eventually, I hope, it will help weed out hacks who cant/wont take responsibility for their messes, and it will continue to provide a new and profitable revenue stream for real painters.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

PS, like many of us, I have had elevated lead levels and it was not awesome. Not going there again.


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## paintnow (Dec 11, 2011)

Hi Cliff. No one has answered your question regarding the GC being certified. Although he is legally responsible for safe practices on the job site (including being required by law to give the homeowner a copy of Renovate Right), I do not think he must be certified (although he should be, as a good business practice). If you are looking for work (and looking out for the welfare of the children in this home), I don't see any moral or ethical reason why you should not introduce yourself to the homeowner for the purpose of doing a lead test and lead dust clean-up. The homeowner will know if he is already paying for that. If he has not seen the brochure, you will know that he is NOT paying for lead dust containment ... and you and he will both know there are health issues that need to be immediately addressed. Good luck, and stay warm.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

The lawyers don't care who is responsible. They ARE going to sue everyone and let the court sort it out. 

You decide if its worth the money you may have to spend just to defend yourself.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Looks like a new thread hiding in here ! Might be interesting


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

paintnow said:


> Hi Cliff. No one has answered your question regarding the GC being certified. Although he is legally responsible for safe practices on the job site (including being required by law to give the homeowner a copy of Renovate Right), I do not think he must be certified (although he should be, as a good business practice).


Just to clarify, Dean did answer.



Dean CRCNA said:


> If the GC had the components inspected by a certified renovator, lead inspector or risk assessor and no lead based paint was found, he doesn't have to be certified.
> 
> If no inspection, than at a minimum, the GC has to be a Lead Safe Certified Firm and appoint a certified renovator (one) to oversee the project.
> 
> I personally don't run away from these projects. Instead, I add big bucks and make it worth my while.


Remember, there is a Certified Firm and a Certified Renovator. A GC (and other subs) must be a Certified Firm, while there only needs to be one Certified Renovator on record.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Scotiadawg said:


> Looks like a new thread hiding in here ! Might be interesting


Nope, just me being stoopid again. Searched the Lead threads, it's all there! Lawd I'm tired tonight!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Scotiadawg said:


> Nope, just me being stoopid again. Searched the Lead threads, it's all there! Lawd I'm tired tonight!


Dean has been a great resource on all things RRP, he also writes for BP here.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

paintnow said:


> Hi Cliff. No one has answered your question regarding the GC being certified. Although he is legally responsible for safe practices on the job site (including being required by law to give the homeowner a copy of Renovate Right), I do not think he must be certified (although he should be, as a good business practice). If you are looking for work (and looking out for the welfare of the children in this home), I don't see any moral or ethical reason why you should not introduce yourself to the homeowner for the purpose of doing a lead test and lead dust clean-up. The homeowner will know if he is already paying for that. If he has not seen the brochure, you will know that he is NOT paying for lead dust containment ... and you and he will both know there are health issues that need to be immediately addressed. Good luck, and stay warm.


 As Dean pointed out. There is a difference between being an EPA Certified Renovator and an EPA Certified Firm. I am both, this GC is neither. I tend to agree with Dean that he must at least be a registered certified firm even he is not a certified renovator himself. Someone then on the job has got to be a certified renovator and test the place for lead as applicable prior to any disturbance or full protocol would have to be followed. You do make some good points paintnow and I thank you for your interest. I would be surprised if the homeowner has seen a brochure or had the "conversation". This has become old news for me at this point. I'm sure he's got some hack in there by now hoping to get in and out before the sh!t hits the fan.


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