# Stain not dark enough!



## ChelsO

Staining a door(maple veneer with glass insert). Have done it tons but decided to use a conditioner which was a mistake because now stain isn't dark enough. I've done two coats and I'm still 2-3 shades to light. I know a 3rd probably won't change things since the wood has absorbed what it can. Was thinking of mixing stain with my varnish. Anyone have any other tricks I could pull out?
Luckily this a long time client and good friend but that also makes me want it to be super perfect.


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## cocomonkeynuts

maple should not get conditioner! More coats of stain is not good you can start having adhesion issues.


Use dyes in your varnish coat and spray if possible. Light coats and try not to have any runs


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## ChelsO

I know!!! I don't know what I was thinking, never done it before so total derp thinking I needed it all of a sudden. Stain is a custom match so how would I go about proper dye? Spraying not really an option


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## cocomonkeynuts

ChelsO said:


> I know!!! I don't know what I was thinking, never done it before so total derp thinking I needed it all of a sudden. Stain is a custom match so how would I go about proper dye? Spraying not really an option



put some of the stain on maple, get some dyes and start mixing small batches starting with the base tones until you get something close. start with a light pigment load so you can layer.


hopefully you know some color theory otherwise stop by your local paint store for help color matching the clear coat


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## finishesbykevyn

I wonder if a gel stain would do the trick. But maybe use a darker colour..


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## juanvaldez

Strip and start over??


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## cocomonkeynuts

juanvaldez said:


> Strip and start over??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



problem with stripping is the conditoner you need to sand out of the veneer


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## Redux

I’ve done quite a bit of brush applied toning and layering of color with oil based clears, utilizing oil soluble powder dyes or pre-mix oil dye stains incorporated into the clear finishes. Two of my resources are WD Lockwood for the powder dyes, and Sutherland Welles for the premix oil dye stains, both of which get incorporated into the oil based clear finishes. The trick is to gradually build up color with each clear coat, and not attempt to achieve the desired color with just one heavier concentration.

The oil dye stains have a tendency to fade over time, more so when exposed to heavy UV light. The fading is so gradual though, occurring over a long period of time, and it’s rarely to never noticed.


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## GoodFilla

*Tone over stain*



ChelsO said:


> Staining a door(maple veneer with glass insert). Have done it tons but decided to use a conditioner which was a mistake because now stain isn't dark enough. I've done two coats and I'm still 2-3 shades to light. I know a 3rd probably won't change things since the wood has absorbed what it can. Was thinking of mixing stain with my varnish. Anyone have any other tricks I could pull out?
> Luckily this a long time client and good friend but that also makes me want it to be super perfect.


We have a Gel Stain and Paint base that can be pigmented with WB tints/dyes. It can be applied over the stain or in between coats of finish without impeding the adhesion. It is easily removed before you coat it if you're not satisfied with the color. I like the WD Lockwood dyes because they're concentrated and are easy to get deep colors with.


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## cocomonkeynuts

GoodFilla said:


> We have a Gel Stain and Paint base that can be pigmented with WB tints/dyes. It can be applied over the stain or in between coats of finish without impeding the adhesion. It is easily removed before you coat it if you're not satisfied with the color. I like the WD Lockwood dyes because they're concentrated and are easy to get deep colors with.



Hey barry how can I get some samples of your product sent to my store?


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## GoodFilla

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Hey barry how can I get some samples of your product sent to my store?


Absolutely! Send me an email with your info: Barry -at- goodfilla.com


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## Woodco

I take a cup gun, mix the stain with lacquer thinner about 1-4 stain to thinner, and spray it on (after its already been stained by hand) and gradually darken it. I hold the gun a good distance (a couple feet or so) from the surface, and dont use a fan.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Woodco said:


> I take a cup gun, mix the stain with lacquer thinner about 1-4 stain to thinner, and spray it on (after its already been stained by hand) and gradually darken it. I hold the gun a good distance (a couple feet or so) from the surface, and dont use a fan.


I would be wary of additional coats of stain in this case. Conditioner and 2 coats of stain is already a recipe for loss of adhesion


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## Woodco

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I would be wary of additional coats of stain in this case. Conditioner and 2 coats of stain is already a recipe for loss of adhesion


You can actually do this after the first clear coat if you want. The lacquer thinner lets the stain burn in. I prefer not to though.


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## juanvaldez

We just did a maple stairs re stain last week. Came out pretty nice!
Last guy did a terrible color match touch up job and it needed to be cleaned up. 

We: sanded to bare wood w/
150-189-220
Wet the wood w a micro fiber rag to raise the grain. Let it dry to touch. Applied a dry brush of old masters gel stain. Let dry and locked in w lacquer sanding sealer light coat. Applied another darker coat of dry brush gel stain. 
Let dry and locked in lightly again. Applied 2 coats oil poly sand between coats.










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## juanvaldez

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## juanvaldez

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## juanvaldez




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## cocomonkeynuts

juanvaldez said:


>



looks great, i helped a painter on a similar job. custom matched a pint of gel stain and did the equivalent of that entire stair case dry brushing with E&J shipmate which worked very nicely. Just light enough to dry brush with. sealed with lenmar fast dry sanding sealer and 2 coats lenmar dull rubbed polyurethane.


the only thing to watch out for is recoat time with gel stain if you recoat too soon it can reactivate and pull stain back off.


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## finishesbykevyn

juanvaldez said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very nice. Curious, if you sanded to bare wood, why did you decide to use a gel stain as upposed to a regular penetrating stain?


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## cocomonkeynuts

finishesbykevyn said:


> Very nice. Curious, if you sanded to bare wood, why did you decide to use a gel stain as upposed to a regular penetrating stain?



In our case we sanded to bare wood but there is always some residual stain left in the wood the prevented the regular wiping stain from taking properly. gel stain was able to more evenly pigment the wood.


I would imagine something similar here and they wanted to layer the color to sneak up on the color match.


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## alara592

I've always been told the darkness and how the stain actually comes out is really reliant on the type of wood. I've tried both sherwin Williams and behr products, had similar outcomes. Really just depends on the wood.


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## juanvaldez

I sanded to bare wood because the prior repairs were blotchy. I used gel stain because penetrating stain was too light. And my local didn’t carry any other types of stains or dyes like water or alcohol dyes. 


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## hasnazameer

Use a gel Stain..


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## MelTon55

I don't even sand all the way when using gel stains....


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## cocomonkeynuts

MelTon55 said:


> I don't even sand all the way when using gel stains....



yes and actually dry brushing gel stain works best when the wood still has some finish.


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## Ralphgoss

juanvaldez said:


>


Very nice!


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## paintwrapping

I actually learned the hard way that maple wood is a softer more "sponge-like" wood. You always go light on it. Even if it takes several coats, you let them COMPLETELY dry before doing another.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

*Soft Maple vs. Hard Maple*



paintwrapping said:


> I actually learned the hard way that maple wood is a softer more "sponge-like" wood. You always go light on it. Even if it takes several coats, you let them COMPLETELY dry before doing another.


The confusion with saying that Maple is a softer wood is that there are many species of Maple, and can range in hardness, (Janka), by more than a factor of 2. Softer Maples typically found in Eastern U.S. such as the Silver Maple might rank around 700 in Janka Hardness, while Sugar Maples commonly found in Canada, (as well as various US States), have a Janka Hardness around 1,450, which would put them higher in hardness than Beech, Oak, and even Walnut.

While I might not agree with your statement about Maple being "sponge-like", I absolutely agree that lighter stain/toner coats are always better.


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## canopainting

How did that SOB turn out?


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## IKnowNothing

cocomonkeynuts said:


> yes and actually dry brushing gel stain works best when the wood still has some finish.


Hmmmm.... That sounds interesting.
You might think the opposite would be the case.

I hope by 'finish' you mean old clear coat. 
Does it make the difference what type of finish, oil solvent water based.


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## cocomonkeynuts

IKnowNothing said:


> Hmmmm.... That sounds interesting.
> You might think the opposite would be the case.
> 
> I hope by 'finish' you mean old clear coat.
> Does it make the difference what type of finish, oil solvent water based.



yes, it applies like a glaze.


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## IKnowNothing

cocomonkeynuts said:


> yes, it applies like a glaze.
> https://youtu.be/OgX5yE5rUbo
> https://youtu.be/vGMJWz3mnEo


Thank you for the links, coco. 

Too bad there is no water based gels. 
I looked on the net but nothing is showing up. All oil.
Unless I missed something.

I have a project in occupied home to stain a railing to a darker color.
The couple have a 5 years old child, so using oil based gel stain or solvent based clear coat is out of the question.

Customer likes the railing and other wood parts to be stained to dark brown color, (white spindles will stay white). 
I didn't had a chance to test if the current clear coat is solvent based or water based.
I'm going to check my BM store to see if they have suitable product. 
Applying liquid stain will be no fun on this project.

I worked with oil gel stains before, but the homes were not occupied. 
Gel stains are dream to work with compared to liquid stains, in this type of projects.
Maybe better quality oil gel stains stink less than others.

Oh well.... 

.


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## cocomonkeynuts

IKnowNothing said:


> Thank you for the links, coco.
> 
> Too bad there is no water based gels.
> I looked on the net but nothing is showing up. All oil.
> Unless I missed something.
> 
> I have a project in occupied home to stain a railing to a darker color.
> The couple have a 5 years old child, so using oil based gel stain or solvent based clear coat is out of the question.
> 
> Customer likes the railing and other wood parts to be stained to dark brown color, (white spindles will stay white).
> I didn't had a chance to test if the current clear coat is solvent based or water based.
> I'm going to check my BM store to see if they have suitable product.
> Applying liquid stain will be no fun on this project.
> 
> I worked with oil gel stains before, but the homes were not occupied.
> Gel stains are dream to work with compared to liquid stains, in this type of projects.
> Maybe better quality oil gel stains stink less than others.
> 
> Oh well....
> 
> .


You can use the GF water based stains in the same way, just be sure to add lots of extender to it.






Daly's also is making a water based gel stain with an acrylic/epoxy resin base. The main complaint so far has been not enough open time. very good adhesion though.


I believe @GoodFilla also makes a water based 'gel stain' product.


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## IKnowNothing

cocomonkeynuts said:


> You can use the GF water based stains in the same way, just be sure to add lots of extender to it.
> https://youtu.be/REr52AZYE2w
> 
> 
> Daly's also is making a water based gel stain with an acrylic/epoxy resin base. The main complaint so far has been not enough open time. very good adhesion though.
> 
> 
> I believe @GoodFilla also makes a water based 'gel stain' product.


As always, I appreciate your help, coco.
Daly's water based gel stain sounds like a good product.
(_You often recommend their wood conditioner_). 

https://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/PDF/specs/S-Waterborne-Gel-Stain.pdf

Considering little child in the house and need to keep the smell down, I'm thinking if I should look for waterbased low odor 2in1 product.

Even tho this is T+M job, I like to do it as fast as possible (not compromising quality of the final product to any great extend), so the disturbance to the family will be minimal.
They are nice people, I did other jobs for them in the past, and there are other things to do in the house.

I will check Daly's water gel stain and their clear coats. 
I prefer to use separate products, instead of 2in1. Unless I can find low odor high quality 2in1 that will give nice finish.

Thanks again...

.


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## GoodFilla

*Gel Stain*

Thank you @cocomonkeynuts!

Yes, we do have a gel stain and it's unlike any WB stain you've ever used. (It's patented) It comes in a clear gel to which you add WB pigment or dye and it has the following attributes:

- It has an unlimited open time. By that we mean that it will dry in 15 minutes but will re-wet itself so you have no lap marks.
- It can be applied in layers in order to darken the stain. Or it can be blended/lightened with water or the unpigmented gel.
-It adheres to almost any surface (even glass) and can be applied between coats of finish (any finish) without impeding adhesion.
- It can be used as a wood conditioner under any stain or finish.
- Depending on the pigment load, it can also be used as a paint.(but it will need to be clear coated)
- It is a zero VOC, non-toxic product that is freeze-thaw stable.

I am happy to answer any questions either by email or on our TF: 866 563 6283 x 703.

Barry


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## cocomonkeynuts

IKnowNothing said:


> As always, I appreciate your help, coco.
> Daly's water based gel stain sounds like a good product.
> (_You often recommend their wood conditioner_).
> 
> https://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/PDF/specs/S-Waterborne-Gel-Stain.pdf
> 
> Considering little child in the house and need to keep the smell down, I'm thinking if I should look for waterbased low odor 2in1 product.
> 
> Even tho this is T+M job, I like to do it as fast as possible (not compromising quality of the final product to any great extend), so the disturbance to the family will be minimal.
> They are nice people, I did other jobs for them in the past, and there are other things to do in the house.
> 
> I will check Daly's water gel stain and their clear coats.
> I prefer to use separate products, instead of 2in1. Unless I can find low odor high quality 2in1 that will give nice finish.
> 
> Thanks again...
> 
> .



Last I talked to Brian at Daly's they had lost their chemist who was working on the gel stain. Not sure where they left off with it.


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## IKnowNothing

Interesting stuff here.

*"The 7 Myths of Polyurethane"*
_Quote:_

MYTH #2: Thin the first coat 50 percent to get a good bond. This is an old myth that probably got its start because of poor understanding of the role of primers used under paint, and sanding sealers sometimes used under varnish and lacquer.

Primers do create a better bond for paint because they contain a higher ratio of binder (finish) to pigment. 
But finishes are all binder, so they bond perfectly well without a separate product.

Sanding sealers contain a soap-like lubricant that makes the sanding of the first coat easier and faster, so they are especially useful in production situations. 
But they weaken the bond of the finish, so unless you’re doing production work, you’re better off not using a sanding sealer.

Polyurethane bonds especially poorly to sanding sealers, so most manufacturers of polyurethane discourage their use. Furthermore, 
polyurethane sands easily, so there isn’t any need for a sanding sealer.

Nevertheless, the existence of primers and sanding sealers (and the recent addition of “SealCoat,” a dewaxed shellac from Zinsser, marketed for use as a “sealer” under polyurethane) have created a belief among some that something has to be put under the polyurethane to make it bond better.

And those who believe this have come up with the idea of thinning the finish.

In fact, the only benefit gained by thinning is faster drying. 
The thinner the layer of any finish, the faster it dries, and the sooner it can be sanded and the next coat applied. So there is a benefit, but it’s not improved bonding.

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/editors-blog/the_7_myths_of_polyurethane/


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## IKnowNothing

Another interesting article.

*"When to Use Sanding Sealer."*
What is "sanding sealer" and what's it good for? 

Woodworking expert Michael Dresdner offer's a quick lesson on the properties and uses of sanding sealer to a Woodworker's Journal newsletter reader who wanted to know when it should be used and whether it would make a big difference to the end result.

https://www.rockler.com/learn/when-to-use-sanding-sealer


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## IKnowNothing

GoodFilla said:


> Thank you @cocomonkeynuts!
> 
> Yes, we do have a gel stain and it's unlike any WB stain you've ever used. (It's patented) It comes in a clear gel to which you add WB pigment or dye and it has the following attributes:
> 
> - It has an unlimited open time. By that we mean that it will dry in 15 minutes but will re-wet itself so you have no lap marks.
> - It can be applied in layers in order to darken the stain. Or it can be blended/lightened with water or the unpigmented gel.
> -It adheres to almost any surface (even glass) and can be applied between coats of finish (any finish) without impeding adhesion.
> - It can be used as a wood conditioner under any stain or finish.
> - Depending on the pigment load, it can also be used as a paint.(but it will need to be clear coated)
> - It is a zero VOC, non-toxic product that is freeze-thaw stable.
> 
> I am happy to answer any questions either by email or on our TF: 866 563 6283 x 703.
> 
> Barry


Thank you Barry/GoodFilla
Sounds like a good product, but I will start the job in 2 days so I will need to buy something local.

I'm interested in what *juanvaldez* did by using Old Masters oil gel stain.
I'm going to take a sniff of that OldMasters at the store to 'see' how strong the smell is, knowing that when applied on all of the surface 
the smell will be even stronger.

Might not be suitable for occupied home with 5 years young child in it.
I like to avoid using runny liquid water based stains.

.


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## IKnowNothing

GoodFilla said:


> Thank you @cocomonkeynuts!
> 
> Yes, we do have a gel stain and it's unlike any WB stain you've ever used. (It's patented) It comes in a clear gel to which you add WB pigment or dye and it has the following attributes:
> 
> - It has an unlimited open time. By that we mean that it will dry in 15 minutes but will re-wet itself so you have no lap marks.
> - It can be applied in layers in order to darken the stain. Or it can be blended/lightened with water or the unpigmented gel.
> -It adheres to almost any surface (even glass) and can be applied between coats of finish (any finish) without impeding adhesion.
> - It can be used as a wood conditioner under any stain or finish.
> - Depending on the pigment load, it can also be used as a paint.(but it will need to be clear coated)
> - It is a zero VOC, non-toxic product that is freeze-thaw stable.
> 
> I am happy to answer any questions either by email or on our TF: 866 563 6283 x 703.
> 
> Barry


Barry, 
I wonder if your proprietary clear gel could be used to add to other brands of water based liquid stains to turn them into a gel stains.
If from chemical point this is possible maybe you can market and sell your clear gel as such option, considering that there is almost no water based gel stains on the market. 

.


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## Greg dittman

You could try adding tint to your varnish not stain. Adding stain to varnish may never dry.
Or apply 1 coat of varnish and use gel stain as 1 person suggested above.
I also use water sometimes to raise the grain on stains that are hard to match
You could also try applying stain and lighly sanding it in with 120


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## GoodFilla

*Gel Stain*

While you can mix our gel product with any water-based product, the stains have a low pigment load and will water down the gel aspect. That's why we recommend tints or dye.


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## IKnowNothing

GoodFilla said:


> While you can mix our gel product with any water-based product, the stains have a low pigment load and will water down the gel aspect. That's why we recommend tints or dye.


Thanks Barry. 
I wish you posted link to your site, (maybe it's against the rules of PT), but after some gymnastics searching here on PT and on Google, I finally found your site and your products and couple of videos on the net. 

https://www.goodfilla.com/

Gork's Goodfilla with Barry Gork at VTS 2019.





WoodCraft Vendor Trade Show
https://www.goodfilla.com/gorkreport

Looks like your products have lot's of (1200) very positive reviews on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Gorks-GoodFilla-CECOMINOD046080/dp/B00IUUUREQ

I really like what I've read and saw about your products.
They sound brilliant.
So the clear stain gel is the Googfilla Gel Stain and Paint base.
https://www.goodfilla.com/store/c8/GEL/Stain/Paint/Base

As I mentioned previously, for this project (because of timing) I must go with something else, 
but (even tho I do very few wood finishing projects, like that railing above), I will purchase jar of that gel to experiment with it.
Being water based and low VOC and all the other qualities and versatilities of it makes that gel to be a dream gel -in water based formula-.
Yes, the fact that it had to be color mixed by the user on the site is a + and a -
But more of a big plus than just a bit of inconvenience of not being able to just open a jar of ready mixed stain color you buy at the store.

I wish you had a national network of retail outlets selling your products. 
It's just easier to go to the store to pick it up on a day you need it, instead of ordering online.
And of course bigger visual exposure having products on the shelves in the stores.
Are you planing to team up with some national chains, like BenjaminMoore for example.
Come on BM, buy him out. 10 MILLION dollars. _(does that sounds right, Berry)?_ :smile:

Great product idea. Great approach. 

Thank you.

.


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## IKnowNothing

I also like what I saw in your video and read about your wood filler in the "Sylvan and his Rolls" article.
Sounds like a very versatile easy to work with product giving very good results.
The shellack and your grain filler demo in the video is amazing. The result is amazing. 

https://www.goodfilla.com/gorkreport

I wonder if there are any members here on PT who used your products.

.


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## cocomonkeynuts

GoodFilla said:


> While you can mix our gel product with any water-based product, the stains have a low pigment load and will water down the gel aspect. That's why we recommend tints or dye.



Hey Barry, you don't have enough posts yet to PM. Any chance we dealers will see your product carried by the likes of PSS?


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## GoodFilla

*Toll Free*



cocomonkeynuts said:


> Hey Barry, you don't have enough posts yet to PM. Any chance we dealers will see your product carried by the likes of PSS?


 Can you call me on 866 563 6283 x 703?


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