# Whats your hourly rate?



## BigDogPainting

I'm sure some people are gonna get mad and/or annoyed that I'm asking this. If your not comfortable, obviously, don't comment. I live in Northern California and charge $25 an hour on time and material jobs. I am able to charge for one way drive time when the job is 1 hour or more away. I know some contractors in my area charge "shop hours" of $50, but when your doing a time and materials job what do you get in your area?


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## Ole34

over here on the east coast ............phila pa ..mainline area we get anywhere from $50-$80 plus materials per man hour if you bid it that way but you'd be stupid if you did cause the money is in bidding the job not the hour, well at least for me it is anyway........i wont talk about my overhead because the crybabies in here will be all over it tellin me i have way more then whatever i state lol


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## ewingpainting.net

BigDogPainting said:


> *I live in Northern California* and *charge $25 an hour* on time and material jobs.


 WW  

Thanks for letting me get that out 


WW


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## 6126

Lol This should be interesting.  But, I will answer your question, More than double what you posted. And my question is.....where does your overhead factor into that $25 per hour? I feel if I was going to charge that I would be much better off just going back out and getting a regular job.


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## Ole34

somethings not right .............how can you charge $25 per hour ?? thats more like an employees hourly wage not an owner ......maybe im jsut tired but something smells fishy ............when i first start back in 1998 i was makin $15 per hour


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## Ole34

this thread could go Viral :blink:


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## BigDogPainting

of course.


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## PatsPainting

I'm a owner operator, I pay myself $28.00 per hour when I'm working on the job

Pat


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## nEighter

Ole34 said:


> this thread could go Viral :blink:


you think that is why I am itchy and scratchy all the sudden?!

OP.. $25.00/hr is employee wage. No company owner can afford to charge that and survive. Get new customers, take your ad off craigslist, get a site, hit the pavement.. and you will do okay. But get that rate up man, you are a pro. Act.. AND.. charge like it.

Have you figured out any of your company's #'s?


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## BigDogPainting

To be honest I wish I could charge more. I bid all of my residential projects based on a $25 hourly rate and there are plenty of jobs I don't win. I manage to stay busy, but don't realistically think I could stay busy if I charged $50 an hour. As far as finding new customers goes, again, it would be great to find customers willing to pay $50 an hour. What do you mean when you say hit the pavement?


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## ewingpainting.net

He means, get out and find those prospects that are willing to pay a legit PC. They do exist! Are you licensed?


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## BigDogPainting

Yes, I am licensed. Are you only an ****** online or do you give people a hard time in your daily life? If you have high end clientele why would you bother getting upset when you come across someone that doesnt have the same clientele. Obviously, you would never work for someone that considers $25 an hour competitive so I am not taking any potential business for you. I can appreciate neighter who seems to be genuinely encouraging me to get my hourly rate up, but you just seem to be cutting people down on here all the time. Thats enough of my time wasted.

"When someone comes here and gets chased off I have a real problem with that." - Nathan "Administrator"


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## PatsPainting

Ok BigDog - I guess what everyone would like to know is the breakdown of that $25.00 per hour. Do you pay taxes?, does that fee include overhead "Your costs of doing business" A simple breakdown will help with the reply's you will get.

Pat


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## AztecPainting

BigDogPainting said:


> Yes, I am licensed. Are you only an asshole online or do you give people a hard time in your daily life? If you have high end clientele why would you bother getting upset when you come across someone that doesnt have the same clientele. Obviously, you would never work for someone that considers $25 an hour competitive so I am not taking any potential business for you. I can appreciate neighter who seems to be genuinely encouraging me to get my hourly rate up, but you just seem to be cutting people down on here all the time. Thats enough of my time wasted.
> 
> "When someone comes here and gets chased off I have a real problem with that." - Nathan "Administrator"


Hmmm.... Don't get bitter, everyone knows what they are talking about.

$50.00/hr didn't use to make sense to me buddy, when I was working for a company I thought they were crazy insane and taking advantage of me, now I own a company and let me tell you something $25 per hr i is what I end up paying per employee per hour with premiums and workers comp + add phone bill (I believe you have one), fuel and operation cost (overhead) The rest is profit. Do the math. 

Now answer yourself this question: How do I make money???


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## BreatheEasyHP

I do fine charging $35 per labor hour for myself and my employees. The most I pay an employee is $15 an hour, which with additional costs comes to $20/hr. 

I then charge $1 for every hour in the bid to approximately cover for soft supplies and tool maintenance. 

Paint and any other large items are added as needed. 

My first job this year I hit 71 labor hours on an 80 hour budget, which effectively puts the labor I charge out at just under $39.50 per hour. Looking at my books, I'd say for the short-term I'm not doing better than adequate.

$25/hr. is not anywhere close to having high-end clientele. I charge that sometimes - for non-profits and poor friends. I call it charity work. 

If I can't at the end of the month pay myself at least my share of my wife and my living expenses, my business has lost money - the owner's livelihood should be considered an expense (the most important one). I have a monthly amount to pay myself out of my business, then I'm able to see how much its left in my business account and check it against liabilities. If I have a lot left in the business, I buy toys:thumbup:


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## 6126

Ok, I generally wont post my #s here. We have plenty of painters in my area posting on craigslist for $25 hr as I would imagine any other city does too. Some are licensed, some are not. None of them ever last though. And I will admit, I have posted my share on CL too, but its pretty much been a waste of time and its not the type of customers I want. Allthough I get very little T&M work, everything I do comes down to an hourly rate. Whether I am using unit cost, sq ft, or simply figuring hours on a job I know what my operating costs are and what I need to charge to cover them. Im guessing you have no employees? At one time I was running a 3-4 guys. I figured everything at $55 per man. And that is by no means high for a legit PC. That worked out OK. Now I have no employees and from my experience its hard to stay in business at that rate as a one man show because all my overhead relies on me as opposed to spreading it out over a few guys. I understand the struggle of getting the business going cause I am currently there myself. As already mentioned, focus on getting the right clients. One thing I do know is there are clients I target and others who are a waste of my time. Getting the right clients doesnt happen overnight, but what can you do to find them?


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## 6126

BreatheEasyHP said:


> I do fine charging $35 per labor hour for myself and my employees. The most I pay an employee is $15 an hour, which with additional costs comes to $20/hr.
> 
> I then charge $1 for every hour in the bid to approximately cover for soft supplies and tool maintenance.
> 
> Paint and any other large items are added as needed.


 Not bad. Sounds like you have a good system, but how many employees? Still seems a little low unless you have at least 5.


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## premierpainter

We charge as little as $32 an hour up to $55. The difference is we have lots of guys working so they all pay into our overhead. Small companies have much higher overhead per guy. Go to mycostcenter.com and buy it. It will open your eyes to what you have to charge just to stay in business. It put our hourly rate down to $29 per hour due to lots of workers.


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## ewingpainting.net

BigD, I had to go back and reread my post. I couldn't find anywhere where I was kicking you down or even giving you a hard time. The reason I asked why you were licensed, was your rate seems to be of a unlicensed. That rate will keep anyone digging ditches. As you are bringing down the cost in our industry. Its not just a lose to you, but the whole industry. At some point you need to stop looking at as hourly rates rather as a unit cost. 
Good luck, and no harm intended.


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## billy the kid

it seems to me at 25 a man hr u would need a bicycle or 50 to a gal van to get to work,gas is a son of a gun right now,on top of that workmans comp,insurance rates just got jacked up with out any notice just a bill in the mail...etc..etc... it s tough out here man but a little sun and its race on you know like on the deadlest catch,gotta get in as many exteriors as u can while its dry,doing decks in the morning and night when its cooler,booking interiors for wet days and winter,


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## Dunbar Painting

I have worked out an hourly rate per item. Assuming I am using lower paid guys to do stuff like scraping & sanding, and higher paid guys to do stuff like fine painting, spraying, etc... I charge like this
prep: $40- $45 per man hour
painting: $50-55 per man hour
spraying: $80 per man hour (sprayer plus assistant)
power washing: $100 per man hour

Alternately I double check my numbers by looking at how much it costs me per day for 3 employees: $60 per hour x8 hours= $480. I multiply that by 2.1 (to compensate for over head and profit). Then figure how many days a job will take. 4 days would be 4x1008 plus supplies and paint. 

Well those are 2 ways I derive a price and how I price... but sometimes I do it differently depending on the client & employees to be working, or if I can do it myself or want to do it myself

I will only do Time and Materials job if it is for "addons" to a main job. With that I bill out the time at $45 an hour plus all materials at cost plus 20% mark up.


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## Wood511

Back in the day, there was a guy named Michigan here that used to get $100 an hour for everything he did. That guy owned entire neighborhoods and if you crossed him he might come to your town and steal your neighborhood from you.

Those were the days.


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## BreatheEasyHP

Woodland said:


> Not bad. Sounds like you have a good system, but how many employees? Still seems a little low unless you have at least 5.


I agree, $35 is low. This summer I'll be running 1-2 employees, not quite full time. But I operate on bids and usually come out around the same as a few other PCs _that I respect. _

I'm remarkably good at estimating how long jobs will take me. Thus, I charge less for my time, but because I'm new, it takes me longer to do the job; I don't significantly underbid my competition. 

I'm perfectly ok with making a meager amount for the first 2 years of being in business because I'm acquiring experience, knowledge, a great reputation and equipment. A key is that I see my current business model as untenable, but a good platform for the long term.

Attached is a tool I use to help run profit scenarios:


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## A+HomeWork

*Changing it up*

Now that I have a trailer, I am taking more small jobs since I have everything in one place, finally. I am charging more for these small jobs: painting a bathroom, hallway, living room ceiling, etc. I have been giving flat rates for this stuff based on how many hours it will take. Honestly, I shoot from the hip after looking at what I think it will take. My normal estimating methods don't really apply.

Having said that, I average $30-35 per hour, but have been doing well on these quickies. Told a person $2 per square floor foot to paint a ceiling in a room and hallway. Bid came to $644 and takes 5 hours to do. Subtract about $65 for paint and $125 for helpers' hours and I grossed about $90 per hour!

Thing is, my flooring contact told me she called him asking for my number to give to some other people! I assume she's happy.


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## b2dap1

The money is def in bidding the whole job. if by the hour...$50 will do.


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## Paint and Hammer

$8.50


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## Marion

I only do time & material for GC's that I have a solid relationship with. This occurs when, for whatever reason, I wasn't in on the initial bidding process of the project. And they call and say, "We are ready for paint". I reply, "Where the  you working at?" They say, "You didn't know about it?" I say, " no!" They say, "Can you take care of it for us?" I say, "I'll be there shortly." 

Here in SW VA, as a general rule, $40 per man hour + materials.


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## Drunk Painter

You should try to charge two and one half times more then what you pay a employee. Material cost plus 20% basing this on time and material job. 
Paying a person $18.00 hourly rate to the customer $45.00. 
I prefer giving estimates and doing the job you will make more, at times customers are complicated and time and material is a must.


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## daArch

I just call up NEPS and ask him what he pays his top man and then double it, unless I'm working in town, then I take Big Pappy's batting average at week's end and mutliply it by 250 and add $10.

But I can't tell you what those figures are 'cause I'll have a visit from the "silencer"


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## paintr56

BigDogPainting said:


> To be honest I wish I could charge more. I bid all of my residential projects based on a $25 hourly rate and there are plenty of jobs I don't win. I manage to stay busy, but don't realistically think I could stay busy if I charged $50 an hour. As far as finding new customers goes, again, it would be great to find customers willing to pay $50 an hour. What do you mean when you say hit the pavement?



Big dog, Raise your prices. I do very little T&M work, but when I do it is $70 per hour. I still do better on bid work. 

At $25 an hour do not believe you are losing work because your price is too high. It is just as likely that you are loseing it because your price is too low. Many people will drop a price that looks too low as quick as one that looks too high. I know I do. I want to do business with a contractor that believes in their services, and knows they are worth a fair price. 

Please take this as it is intended. To help you make a living in a great career.

Jim


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## George's Decorating

I charge $77.96/hour on TM, but don't mark up materials. That's also what I charge for touch up. You'd be surprised how careful other trades are when they find out what their sloppiness will cost them.
Some thoughts on the whole topic after reading all the posts:

BreatheEasyHP sounds like he's participating in OJT at customers expense. I assume there are others as well. They "know" how to paint because they are/were "painters" for College Pro Painters or another company like that. I've had to paint exteriors after their paint job failed in 2 years. There's your $25/hour guys. 

I wonder how many of the low end painters actually went through vocational school to learn about *PROFESSIONAL *painting.

I also wonder how many of the low end guys that replied to this thread have illegals working for them. This is another way to keep your hourly rate down. Of course, it brings down the whole painting trade as a result, but what the hell; as long as you can make an extra buck.

Finally, I do a lot of residential homes om the $350K to $800K range. I'm surprised at how many homeowners will use a college painter or illegals for a cheap job on 1 of their most valuable possessions. Maybe they like having to have their home painted every 2 years.


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## kerk

I find it amusing how the guy who charges less, and whose time is spent generating income, is berated by those who think he should charge more, and 'spend' their time, and money, looking for customers who will pay it.

Actually, I charge $200 per hour. I'm still looking for my first customer.

:blink:

Hourly rate?........of some importance. Year end net and income?........big importance.


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## CliffK

kerk said:


> I find it amusing how the guy who charges less, and whose time is spent generating income, is berated by those who think he should charge more, and 'spend' their time, and money, looking for customers who will pay it.
> 
> Actually, I charge $200 per hour. I'm still looking for my first customer.
> 
> :blink:
> 
> Hourly rate?........of some importance. Year end net and income?........big importance.


 Good point Kerk. I believe the goal is to make a nice living for yourself and your family while trying to do the right thing out there everyday. There are, I am sure , many different ways to achieve that goal. Getting hung up comparing hourly rates is like comparing apples to oranges. It is doubtful however, that it is realistically able to be accomplished at $25/hour in todays day and age and operate as a legitimate contractor. The math just doesn't work.


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## daArch

And I think everyone should be real careful about *ASSUMING* that another person is not licensed, not insured, not legal, and not playing by other professional standards.

Sure, it does *APPEAR* incredulous that some people can charge so low and play by the rules, but may I suggest that before any assumptions are made that you ask a few questions first. Remember, even here on PT, one should be afforded the simple courtesy of being *PRESUMED* innocent before being found guilty.


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## ewingpainting.net

Is this in the bylaws :lol: This isn't a court of law.  it's only right to assume that with 25 bucks an hour not every thing is going to be legit. Because it's not possible in this day and age, specially coming from someone conducting business in a demographic area, that is one of THE most expensive areas in the country to live and the highest taxed state. Being I am in a Cali as well, I would assume my assumption to be right :thumbsup:


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## PatsPainting

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is this in the bylaws :lol: Because it's not possible in this day and age, specially coming from someone conducting business in a demographic area, that is one of THE most expensive areas in the country to live and the highest taxed state. Being I am in a Cali as well, I would assume my assumption to be right :thumbsup:


Would have to disagree with ya, It's completely possible and I would bet there are many people who would love to make his income. Even up in NoCal there are people working for company's for over 15 years who are only making $14.00hr making it on their own.

$25.00hr = $1000.00 per week - take away taxes and overhead - leaves you $750.00. $750.00 x 50 weeks leaves you $37,500. for the year.

$37,500 is more then enough to live a decent life..

Pat


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## BreatheEasyHP

Earlier in the thread I provided a profit calculator that can be played around with different scenarios - owner does more work him/herself, employees do more work, hourly rate is x, so forth. What's plain after messing with it is that if you don't have a plan, _you might end up doing more work and making less money. _


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## BreatheEasyHP

George's Decorating said:


> BreatheEasyHP sounds like he's participating in OJT at customers expense. I assume there are others as well. They "know" how to paint because they are/were "painters" for College Pro Painters or another company like that. I've had to paint exteriors after their paint job failed in 2 years. There's your $25/hour guys.


.....Good call, but I don't assume I "know" how to paint. I spend a lot of time making sure the process I take is going to be durable. But I'm deeply embarrassed to have associated myself with that franchise. Biggest mistake of my life....


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## ewingpainting.net

PatsPainting said:


> Would have to disagree with ya, It's completely possible and I would bet there are many people who would love to make his income. Even up in NoCal there are people working for company's for over 15 years who are only making $14.00hr making it on their own.
> 
> $25.00hr = $1000.00 per week - take away taxes and overhead - leaves you $750.00. $750.00 x 50 weeks leaves you $37,500. for the year.
> 
> $37,500 is more then enough to live a decent life..
> 
> Pat


The OP is presenting himself as a business owner not a employee. Obviously that is more than a fair employee hourly rate. But as a business owner I think not! Unless you like making 5-10 bucks an hour after you paid overhead to be legit  

The only way I see this working is if you never reported your income. 25 bucks an hour is what I would charge, IF, I wanted to get some mad money


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## PatsPainting

Well, I doubt we ever find out out as it seems the OP has left the building crying. But I think we have see these threads before about how much overhead do you need in order to be legit. Some say not much and others say chit loads. I doubt anyone wants to get in one of these debates now or at least in this thread. 

Pat


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## ewingpainting.net

It's not whether you agree or disagree, debate or not, its the facts. The facts are 25 bucks is not practical for a legitimate business at least in Cali. and I see contractors do it all the time. Even if you were a owner operator acting under a sole proprietor, one would have to charge at least 35 an hour, anything less your just spinning your wheels. I haven't attacked the OP in any matter, I have confronted what seems to be Illegitimate, which I can not and will not ever condone. These threads are just another "going rate" which can and are deceiving. As I stated already, their not just hurting themselves but the industry as well, which we all legitimate business owner should be protective over.


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## plainpainter

I've painted enough years that I can't get out of bed for some of the figures I am reading in this thread. If painting was about going to work, applying paint to walls, and watching 3-4 scantily clad models/strippers/prostitutes do exotic dances in the background while you work with a mid-afternoon 'treat' every 2:30. Then sure I could see painting charging $25-$30 shop hours. But it's not that way. Not to mention as a solo operator much time has to be invested meeting with new homeowners and doing estimates, work just doesn't plop in your lap. Even if you could work 2,000 man-hours a year - you'd be putting in at least another 300-500 hours doing estimates and meeting with homeowners. 

It's one thing if you have bigger crews, larger jobs that take extended amounts of time - then it's not about what to charge per hour - it's about what 'net' profit margin the market will support to supply your volume business model - and then figure the man-hour from that. From watching guys in my area, I'd say if they're charging $35/hr - they'd be lucky to make 15 grand of real income after all is said and done. Between all the weather and the seasons - small shops get in perhaps 30-40% of all theoretical billing hours in a year.


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## daArch

Gabe,

You are ASSUMING a lot about the OP. And you KNOW what they say when you ASS-U-ME.

I agree, that on the surface this kind of wage APPEARS to be fraught with all sorts of issues, but we do not know for CERTAIN. He said "Northern California", not San Francisco, Sacramento, Monterey, Pacifica, or other known high rent areas. As you know, "NoCal" is a huge place with LOTS of diversity of income needs. 

FYI, just did a search, In Glenn County the per capita income is $14,069 and the median household income is $32,107

Not saying your assumptions are wrong, just saying it's not accurate to assume with so few facts.


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## sagebrush123

I was able to live in San Diego and charge minimum $35.00 T/M
and survive. spinning of the wheels so to speak. 

There was NOT alot of breathing room and I was NOT ever going to get ahead and make enough money per year to afford a modest home, have a savings, or buy healthcare.

It would have to be double or close to a minimum of $500 a day to make headway, long-term.

Small time painters-working for peanuts are not the threat to the industry. I also am not advocating unlicensed business.


I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS. 

It does no good to compare prices...every situation is different, every person, every state, every city, every job.

I don't usually ever charge enough to = success. But I walk away from my daily work very happy that I cared about what I am doing as far as application and stay tuned into quality.

I do believe in business there is a bottom line. That line does not equal the cheapest products on the market for my profit making.

I can live and work in WV for next to nothing in comparison to California....



Some jobs have to be done under the guidelines of T/M,(remodels as an example) but I agree that the way to profit is a direct estimate.


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## ewingpainting.net

Brother DaArch, not trying to pee in any ones river, and its perfectly fine if you do not agree with me. You don't need a degree to figure this one out, hell just a few days in business should give the revelation. I know that it doesn't matter what city you live in Cali, cause its the state laws and taxes which effect us Cali people. I'd highly doubt a clientele that makes 30k could even afford a painter for 25 bucks and those home that are averaging 14k, can you say "Mobil Home"  being that I know what it takes to run a legitimate business in Cali, cause I do! I think I have a better understanding than ya do. So I will stop assuming and move on to, I know better


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## PressurePros

As much as I can.
A lot.
Worth every penny.


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## NEPS.US

PressurePros said:


> As much as I can.
> A lot.
> Worth every penny.


Careful Ken. 

People hate capitalists in these parts.


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## George's Decorating

sagebrush123 said:


> I was able to live in San Diego and charge minimum $35.00 T/M
> and survive. spinning of the wheels so to speak.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS.


I wonder if the asshats that hire illegals & create the demand for their labor realize that someday real soon the illegals will just start their own business & compete directly against the guys that allowed them to work in this country.


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## A+HomeWork

George's Decorating said:


> I wonder if the asshats that hire illegals & create the demand for their labor realize that someday real soon the illegals will just start their own business & compete directly against the guys that allowed them to work in this country.


No need to wonder. Concrete crews, lawn & landscapers, framers, roofers, drywallers, spinkler installers, etc. all now have latinos owning and running them, in most states I would presume. The owner has papers, licenses, etc., but his workers are fresh from the border. I know because I speak enough Spanish to ask them and they all tell me straight up where they're from and how long they've been in the US!
In Dallas, many of the NC painters were hispanic crews.


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## Bender

ewingpainting.net said:


> Brother DaArch, not trying to pee in any ones river, and its perfectly fine if you do not agree with me. You don't need a degree to figure this one out, hell just a few days in business should give the revelation. I know that it doesn't matter what city you live in Cali, cause its the state laws and taxes which effect us Cali people. I'd highly doubt a clientele that makes 30k could even afford a painter for 25 bucks and those home that are averaging 14k, can you say "Mobil Home"  being that I know what it takes to run a legitimate business in Cali, cause I do! I think I have a better understanding than ya do. So I will stop assuming and move on to, I know better


Soooo....
McDonalds, Walmart, the local YMCA, the stores in the mall, all charge considerably more then $25.00 an hour?


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## NEPS.US

Hi Bendy!:hang:


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## Bender

NEPS.US said:


> Hi Bendy!:hang:


Sup sugar tits?


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## ewingpainting.net

Bender said:


> Soooo....
> McDonalds, Walmart, the local YMCA, the stores in the mall, all charge considerably more then $25.00 an hour?


We wouldn't know they charge by the unit :jester:


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## vermontpainter

plainpainter said:


> Between all the weather and the seasons - small shops get in perhaps 30-40% of all theoretical billing hours in a year.


:blink: huh? Where do you dream up some of this stuff?


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## DeanV

When I was a solo operator it was every weekday, many Saturdays slinging paint. No marketing, no advertising, etc. 2,000 hours slinging paint was no problem. Estimates were done usually on the way home from work or evenings.


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## BreatheEasyHP

sagebrush123 said:


> I think the biggest issue that our country faces/this industry (or will not face) is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND ILLEGAL WORKERS.


American businesspeople _illegally _employ people, pay them an _illegally _low amount, which is _illegal _and _unethical._

Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from. 

So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?


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## AztecPainting

BreatheEasyHP said:


> American businesspeople _illegally _employ people, pay them an _illegally _low amount, which is _illegal _and _unethical._
> 
> Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from.
> 
> So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?


Wow, that's pretty deep...


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## PatsPainting

BreatheEasyHP said:


> American businesspeople _illegally _employ people, pay them an _illegally _low amount, which is _illegal _and _unethical._
> 
> Hardworking people without options work hard for next to nothing, face persecution from racists and nationalists, and often provide for a large, struggling extended family, many of whom the work is estranged from.
> 
> So why are people always yelling about "illegal workers," when the criminals are illegal employers?


From just a quick Google search 



> One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here.
> That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.
> As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:
> "The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."


Pat


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## AztecPainting

Ok. 

I thought we were talking about rates ($$$) in this thread.


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## BADPIG

I got to back Big Dog...at least a little bit anyways. I live and work in Sacramento, Ca. While I charge more than 25 p/h, I see sole prop painters that are licensed, bonded, etc....and are painting for 25 p/h and less, out here right now!

Here are a few things to consider about NorCal. The majority of the region is in a severe economic funk. Layoffs are happening all over the place, and unemployment is around 15%. New construction is slow, repaints are steady but HO out here are really pinching pennies.

People are dying for work. Lets look at that 25 p/h hour figure. Take out taxes, advertising, licensing fees, bonding, truck costs, depreciation costs, insurance costs and other "soft costs" and you can easily take half of that 25 dollars p/h away. So...the guy charging 25 bucks per plus materials is making say...$12.50 per hour. If the guy is working steady (hopefully) 40-50 hours a week thats $2,000 - 2,500 per month take home.

People out here _ARE_ working for that wage!!! and not just hacks.

Heres another example. I bid a two story house ext repaint 2400 sq ft, two coats, quality paints, good work etc etc....My bid was 3500...HO gets two other licensed bids that I saw bid quotes for 1400 and 1700. I couldnt believe it and the HO thought I was way too high. I later saw the finished product and I wasnt real impressed, but the house was painted and looked ok...it was painted and to some / many HO thats all they want.

So...go easy on Big Dog. While its not my working rate, and I dont like customers in that range, i'm not going to badmouth a guy who is just trying to keep working in a tough area.

James.


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## sagebrush123

I can't fight the what comes first the chicken or the egg? ok. 

Hiring the illegal immigrant vs. the illegal immigrant coming to this country. ok. I, too would leave a destitute country in order to survive.

does this situation RADICALLY change our economy? does and HAS.


I DID NOT CHARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE MY BUSINESS LUCRATIVE ENOUGH TO SURVIVE.


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## pmi1

BreatheEasyHP said:


> I do fine charging $35 per labor hour for myself and my employees. The most I pay an employee is $15 an hour, which with additional costs comes to $20/hr.
> 
> I then charge $1 for every hour in the bid to approximately cover for soft supplies and tool maintenance.
> 
> Paint and any other large items are added as needed.
> 
> My first job this year I hit 71 labor hours on an 80 hour budget, which effectively puts the labor I charge out at just under $39.50 per hour. Looking at my books, I'd say for the short-term I'm not doing better than adequate.
> 
> $25/hr. is not anywhere close to having high-end clientele. I charge that sometimes - for non-profits and poor friends. I call it charity work.
> 
> If I can't at the end of the month pay myself at least my share of my wife and my living expenses, my business has lost money - the owner's livelihood should be considered an expense (the most important one). I have a monthly amount to pay myself out of my business, then I'm able to see how much its left in my business account and check it against liabilities. If I have a lot left in the business, I buy toys:thumbup:


 I love the toy part. If you cant have the toys, thats our modest reward for putting up with home owners


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## A+HomeWork

pmi1 said:


> I love the toy part. If you cant have the toys, thats our modest reward for putting up with home owners


I personally don't feel like I am "putting up" with customers. They accepted my bid and trust me to do what was promised. My reward is a paycheck and profit.

Things aren't as bad as Norcal, but have slowed and I want my clients to rave about me to their friends and neighbors and show-off their homes to others. As I posted earlier, I average 30-40 ph gross, but just made $90 ph on one ceiling job, so take what you can get. Funny thing, I squeezed that job in and it ended up double my normal earnings.:thumbup:


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## PressurePros

Amazing how an ego can cloud common sense. I had to go out a few days this past week to act as half a crew. It puts me behind a little, but big deal. I gave up a Sunday of sitting around, got wet for 6 hours and collected $1,100. Even after expenses, there is no job I could have that would pay that well, even if it were time and a half. Staying grateful is not always easy when the money is rolling in and the stress factors are high, but we're all very blessed to be able to do what we are doing.


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## vermontpainter

Word


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## Dave Mac

PressurePros said:


> Amazing how an ego can cloud common sense. I had to go out a few days this past week to act as half a crew. It puts me behind a little, but big deal. I gave up a Sunday of sitting around, got wet for 6 hours and collected $1,100. Even after expenses, there is no job I could have that would pay that well, even if it were time and a half. Staying grateful is not always easy when the money is rolling in and the stress factors are high, but we're all very blessed to be able to do what we are doing.


working on sunday and only 1,100 ken your not charging enough lol, I always wanted to tell you that, seemed like a good time. Just playing around:jester:


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## Different Strokes

PressurePros said:


> Amazing how an ego can cloud common sense. I had to go out a few days this past week to act as half a crew. It puts me behind a little, but big deal. I gave up a Sunday of sitting around, got wet for 6 hours and collected $1,100. Even after expenses, there is no job I could have that would pay that well, even if it were time and a half. Staying grateful is not always easy when the money is rolling in and the stress factors are high, but we're all very blessed to be able to do what we are doing.


That's what I'm talkin' bout......now the haters can chime in.


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## vermontpainter

Different Strokes said:


> That's what I'm talkin' bout......now the haters can chime in.


What could there be to hate about kens post? It's just...the truth! It's nice to see a post that's not all negative.


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## Different Strokes

vermontpainter said:


> What could there be to hate about kens post? It's just...the truth! It's nice to see a post that's not all negative.


I totally agree. It makes me smile when I talk with other painting contractors in my area and they say how overloaded with work they are. It means people are spending money, and i'm gonna make some :yes:


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## A+HomeWork

vermontpainter said:


> What could there be to hate about kens post? It's just...the truth! It's nice to see a post that's not all negative.


 What about me?? Don't I get no kudos?


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## straight_lines

Its those times you and Ken posted about that make this career worthwhile. Without that I don't think I would have stuck with it, and probably would have gotten a job elsewhere.


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## cappaint

BADPIG said:


> I got to back Big Dog...at least a little bit anyways. I live and work in Sacramento, Ca. While I charge more than 25 p/h, I see sole prop painters that are licensed, bonded, etc....and are painting for 25 p/h and less, out here right now!
> 
> Here are a few things to consider about NorCal. The majority of the region is in a severe economic funk. Layoffs are happening all over the place, and unemployment is around 15%. New construction is slow, repaints are steady but HO out here are really pinching pennies.
> 
> People are dying for work. Lets look at that 25 p/h hour figure. Take out taxes, advertising, licensing fees, bonding, truck costs, depreciation costs, insurance costs and other "soft costs" and you can easily take half of that 25 dollars p/h away. So...the guy charging 25 bucks per plus materials is making say...$12.50 per hour. If the guy is working steady (hopefully) 40-50 hours a week thats $2,000 - 2,500 per month take home.
> 
> People out here _ARE_ working for that wage!!! and not just hacks.
> 
> Heres another example. I bid a two story house ext repaint 2400 sq ft, two coats, quality paints, good work etc etc....My bid was 3500...HO gets two other licensed bids that I saw bid quotes for 1400 and 1700. I couldnt believe it and the HO thought I was way too high. I later saw the finished product and I wasnt real impressed, but the house was painted and looked ok...it was painted and to some / many HO thats all they want.
> 
> So...go easy on Big Dog. While its not my working rate, and I dont like customers in that range, i'm not going to badmouth a guy who is just trying to keep working in a tough area.
> 
> James.


Damn 1400 is dirt cheap for a job of that size.


I estimate jobs for about 40-45/hour plus materials but I do it by the job. Sometimes I end up making 50 or more, sometimes 35 depending on how smooth the job goes. There have been times Ive estimated horribly and I made 15/hour though...luckily only for very small jobs.


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## alan

whats wrong with 25 per hour. just work really slow and take tons of bathroom breaks:thumbup:


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## PressurePros

alan said:


> whats wrong with 25 per hour. just work really slow and take tons of bathroom breaks:thumbup:



Exactly why I never understand the per hour threads. The slow and inefficient guy that goes to the truck every five minutes makes a fortune and ends up being high. The super fast guy lowballs the market. It is, just in my opinion, not a good way to price. There is never a balance between home runs and singles. Everything ends up priced out mediocre.

I guess I can understand looking at in a reverse perspective to be able to eyeball jobs later on. I would never accept a T&M bid if I don't know you.


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## daArch

wait a minute, I gotta be dumb. $25/hr is still $25/hr. It don't matter it takes you one week to do an 8 hour job, you're still getting $25/hour. 

I do believe in a form of "piece work" where a $500 room will cost $500 no matter how long it takes - providing quality is all the same. The noob can spend 20 hours on it and make $25/hr cause that's what he deserves, while the seasoned professional can knock it out in 8 hours making what he deserves, over $60/hr. 

But taking longer at $25/hour won't make you rich.


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## PressurePros

daArch said:


> wait a minute, I gotta be dumb. $25/hr is still $25/hr. It don't matter it takes you one week to do an 8 hour job, you're still getting $25/hour.
> 
> I do believe in a form of "piece work" where a $500 room will cost $500 no matter how long it takes - providing quality is all the same. The noob can spend 20 hours on it and make $25/hr cause that's what he deserves, while the seasoned professional can knock it out in 8 hours making what he deserves, over $60/hr.
> 
> But taking longer at $25/hour won't make you rich.


Nope, that sums it up perfectly and further proves the point that what I make and what another person makes per hour is an irrelevant comparison. My hourly billing rate may be $125 man/hr but we will complete a washing job in a third of the time it would take a painter (or landscaper, or window washer or handyman) with a squirt gun pressure washer.


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## daArch

WHEW! I were hoping we wuz coming from the same planet.

I also do not understand the per hour threads. If I price myself at $xx/hour that don't mean squat as to what others deserve or can expect to receive. 

Ken, your systems, trained personnel, and equipment obviously can perform more efficiently than others. As you said, your "hourly rate" is a better deal per "sq.ft." than others. 

I will laugh when some college summer jobber reads what you make and thinks, "wow, I can make $125/hr if I pressure wash decks for my neighbors this summer".


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## Experienced

BigDogPainting said:


> Yes, I am licensed. Are you only an **** online or do you give people a hard time in your daily life? If you have high end clientele why would you bother getting upset when you come across someone that doesnt have the same clientele. Obviously, you would never work for someone that considers $25 an hour competitive so I am not taking any potential business for you. I can appreciate neighter who seems to be genuinely encouraging me to get my hourly rate up, but you just seem to be cutting people down on here all the time. Thats enough of my time wasted.
> 
> "When someone comes here and gets chased off I have a real problem with that." - Nathan "Administrator"


Hi Big Dog, I can appreciate where you're coming from and I have been there where you're at. I grew up in this trade and my father had a large union contracting business as well, I am 52 years old, and have been in this business my entire life. I was making 25 an hour 30 years ago, my advice to you would be, do not charge an hourly rate to your customers, charge by the job, and since you are licensed charge for that too tell your customers hey I'm licensed have liability insurance and guarantee my work, I may be a little more expensive but I will not leave your house until you are happy. Also you need to start bidding commercial work, I have teams of painters working every night at the big tech companies and pay my team 30 an hour minimum and charge 80 an hour for each tech. Try the builders exchange make phone calls try government websites look away from residential. Good luck to you and with hard work and perseverance you will be fine. You want a steady everyday job that pays 30 an hour? I can hook that up for you.


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## RH

Experienced said:


> Hi Big Dog, I can appreciate where you're coming from and I have been there where you're at. I grew up in this trade and my father had a large union contracting business as well, I am 52 years old, and have been in this business my entire life. I was making 25 an hour 30 years ago, my advice to you would be, do not charge an hourly rate to your customers, charge by the job, and since you are licensed charge for that too tell your customers hey I'm licensed have liability insurance and guarantee my work, I may be a little more expensive but I will not leave your house until you are happy. Also you need to start bidding commercial work, I have teams of painters working every night at the big tech companies and pay my team 30 an hour minimum and charge 80 an hour for each tech. Try the builders exchange make phone calls try government websites look away from residential. Good luck to you and with hard work and perseverance you will be fine. You want a steady everyday job that pays 30 an hour? I can hook that up for you.


First off, welcome!

Secondly, a heads up; this thread was started 10 years ago and Big Dog was last active around the same time so it’s very unlikely he will see or respond to your post. It’s an easy mistake to make when you are new here, especially when you see something listed in the recommended reading section located below current threads. Just check the date a thread was started and when a question was posted before replying. Some lend themselves to being resurrected, others not so much.

Finally, please take a minute and go to the intro section and introduce yourself.
Dan


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