# Bad Primer Job



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm supposed to hang paper in the "Historical Village" here. I started today and hung 2 panels. As luck would have it the first panel dropped to near dead on the plumb line and required only a slight push into place. The second panel was of by quite a bit so I lifted the paper to reset it. It had not in any way been pressed to the wall at that pint but to my horror the primer just lifted off with the wet, pasted paper. The primer was a "Beauty Tone" "Pro 300" line product. The primer work was done by a bunch of DIY volunteers. Now their plan is to leave on the 2 panels that are already up and hope for the best. The rest of the rooms are to be primed a second time with a Zinzsser oil primer. (I had been told that was what they were going to use the first time) Do you think this will solve the problem or will the cheap primer-sealer prevent adhesion of the oil primer?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

what were the walls before they got primed? Were they painted or bare? Bare what if they were bare? Drywall, plaster, calcimine?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PACman said:


> what were the walls before they got primed? Were they painted or bare? Bare what if they were bare? Drywall, plaster, calcimine?



Bare, new drywall.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Bare, new drywall.


wow! And the Beautitone stuff came right off? Had it dried adequately? I'm almost afraid to tell you the oil based will be ok. It SHOULD be, but idk. Maybe some Gardz?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is scary sounding to me. I am leaning towards Gardz hoping it will soak into the cheap primer more and bond it to the drywall a bit. Maybe do a test of oil primer and Gardz and then put on a piece of green 3m tape and remove it. See if one does a better job. Or some kind other kind of adhesion test.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PACman said:


> wow! And the Beautitone stuff came right off? Had it dried adequately? I'm almost afraid to tell you the oil based will be ok. It SHOULD be, but idk. Maybe some Gardz?



4 Days, sunny, low humidity days!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> 4 Days, sunny, low humidity days!


how cheap was that stuff?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I just told them to be sure to do a thorough and deep sanding prior to the new application. Word has it, they already purchased the primer. I'll probably be back at it Wednesday or Thursday if they get the new primer on.Then I'll just pray it all works out!


Why do they never ask a pro first but then ask for a fix after they blow the job.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PACman said:


> how cheap was that stuff?



$16 Canadian Dollars per us Gallon


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> $16 Canadian Dollars per us Gallon


$12.30 US. That could be the problem!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Do NOT, I repeat do not use an oil based primer, it's NO good for wall covering these days. Go with Gardz or Sheilds


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

dbl post.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Paste doesnt stick to oil primers. Gardz is my go to for wallpaper primer. Chris: What do you prefer and why?

Gardz will sort of 'solidify' the cheap primer, so I'd go with that for sure with this one.

If they use oil, you'll need to recoat it with an acrylic latex, or gardz.

On the plus side, the first two strips you hung will likely be permanent. lol.

I wonder if they used that yellow mud that Futtyos says primers dont stick to. Was it pulling off at the joints, or in the middle of the board too?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Do NOT, I repeat do not use an oil based primer, it's NO good for wall covering these days. Go with Gardz or Sheilds



Too Late. They have it and are putting it on as we speak. I refuse to destroy my peace of mind for a bunch of do-goody idiots. The should have asked me to do the painting and they would not be up to their eyeballs in head aches. I would have started with a excellent latex/superior adhesion primer but they never asked me.



Still what's the issue with paste over oil primed walls. What new PITA am I looking forward to.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Paste doesnt stick to oil primers. Gardz is my go to for wallpaper primer. Chris: What do you prefer and why?
> 
> Gardz will sort of 'solidify' the cheap primer, so I'd go with that for sure with this one.
> 
> ...



They are not asking me!, The guy at true value or home hardware is advising them. They keep calling me AFTER decisions are made.
If the paste fails to hold, not my problem, I'll done with it. Nothing on this earth could make me do an other job for this bunch. I'm already regretting this one. 



The first 2 panels melded the paste with the paint and are there for the life of the house!


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

If it’s new drywall there could have been a lot dust on the walls that’s causing your issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PNW Painter said:


> If it’s new drywall there could have been a lot dust on the walls that’s causing your issue.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have no doubt they failed to remove the dust after taping. It is a motley crew of well intentioned volunteers. Ask me why houses for humanity are bad deals for all concerned, if a pro volunteers to work for them they will be told no, just give us money! (I offered once) These Humanity homes are also put together by such motley crews of well intentioned volunteers.


I want out of this current job but can't see anyway out! Short of breaking a leg or an arm.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Working under disaster conditions*



jennifertemple said:


> They are not asking me!, The guy at true value or home hardware is advising them. They keep calling me AFTER decisions are made.
> If the paste fails to hold, not my problem, I'll done with it. Nothing on this earth could make me do an other job for this bunch. I'm already regretting this one.
> 
> 
> ...


I remember years ago a woman in my church had her children going to a small private school. This school was renting space in a local grade school that was vacant. I came with a bunch of equipment, ready to do a good job. 

When I got there, some younger members of my church were already painting some door jamb entrances to classrooms. These were metal jambs and were previously coated with oil gloss enamel. The kids were just painting right over the jambs with no scuffing or sanding.

I asked to see the paint. The woman in charge of the private school showed me that she had taken leftover paint that was on site and had mixed several cans of this together. This mix included both oil and latex paint. I told the school mistress about this and how it was a big no no. She explained to me that it was just like taking leftovers from several different meals and mixing them all together. I asked her if she had ever done this before and she said no, but that she was quite confident that everything would be okay.

I said not one more word. I packed up my equipment and left.

futtyos


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I just spoke to the guy running this show. I told him how deeply concerned I was about the prior work on this job; that I was sure they had not dusted the walls before the first coat of primer sealer. I told him that I was concerned the volunteers would not sand deeply enough to reprime and the problem would then be worse with 2 primer coats not adhered to the wall and making the problem exponentially greater. 



His response was as follows: It is not a problem if the walls are not dusted before application. He said pros he has talked to are of two minds. Some say the dust is not an issue and will be absorbed into the primer; others have said you must remove the dust. He thinks it is not a big issue. I told him I am in the firmly in the dust removal camp! I pointed out the manner in which the prior coat was tearing and pulling away is small sheets. This indicates a dust problem. He is "Not concerned" "I am sure the next application will make everything right.


WHAT PRO WOULD EVER SAY WALLS DO NOT NEED TO BE DUSTED AFTER TAPING DRYWALL!!!??? IMO they should be barred from ever opening another can of paint!! Do people not realise that calling one's self a pro does not make it so! 

:vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*GARDZ, GARDZ and more GARDZ!*



jennifertemple said:


> I just spoke to the guy running this show. I told him how deeply concerned I was about the prior work on this job; that I was sure they had not dusted the walls before the first coat of primer sealer. I told him that I was concerned the volunteers would not sand deeply enough to reprime and the problem would then be worse with 2 primer coats not adhered to the wall and making the problem exponentially greater.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is why I am such a fan of Gardz. Gardz is thin and will soak into and through whatever dust is left and make it a permanent part of the surface. Even if the surface is poorly dusted or not dusted at all, Gardz will soak through it and make a more stable surface than any primer I know of.

I would wonder if anything besides Draw-Tite (De Arch always seemed to prefer Draw-Tite over Gardz) would work better than Gardz for under wallpaper, but I don't hang wallpaper, so I wouldn't know.

What I would recommend for your next paper hanging job is to take control of the whole job ahead of time in your proposal, including sizing the walls, or walk away from the job. The guy running the show sounds like he is a sexual intellectual.

Heck!

futtyos


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

futtyos said:


> I would wonder if anything besides Draw-Tite (De Arch always seemed to prefer Draw-Tite over Gardz) would work better than Gardz for under wallpaper, but I don't hang wallpaper, so I wouldn't know.
> futtyos



Any good primer would have been better than $16Ca per gallon "Pro Line"! I would generally use 123, fresh start or Aqualock AFTER dusting the walls. I expect even Gardz would get kind of messy with a lot of dust. It would be bound to spoil the texture of the finish, I think. I've never tried to paint a dusty wall, EVER!


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Do NOT, I repeat do not use an oil based primer, it's NO good for wall covering these days. Go with Gardz or Sheilds



Again, I ask, Why has this recently become an issue? Oil primers used to be preferred prior to paper.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jennifertemple said:


> Again, I ask, Why has this recently become an issue? Oil primers used to be preferred prior to paper.


Apparently nowadays, oils have lower voc's and it does something to it where paste wont adhere to it. I was also warned that if the trim was painted with oil, and it is significantly slopped on the wall, you need to prime that first, or the wallpaper will curl up next to the trim. Im pretty new school, so I dont have any first hand experience with that, but I will listen to the pros when the say to avoid oil. They say if you use oil, to use an acrylic on top of it. I have the Jim Parodi DVD set, and he does a bunch of tests of primers on garbage paint, then a peice of pasted grasscloth left on for an hour, then removed and tape tested. The two coat acrylic on oil, wins the test, but oddly, he didnt do any double coats of acrylic tests. 

Also, if you're hanging a thick vinyl, and the wall is primed with oil, it will make the paste wet for far longer, cuz it blocks more moisture from entering the wall, and vinyl doesnt let moisture through either. YOu kind of need the moisture to go into the wall to get vinyl to dry. There was a thread on here where someone was having a hard time with outside corners, and they primed with oil. I suspect thats why it more difficult for him. He claims it was an oil primer designed for wallpaper, but I've never heard of such a thing....

As far as gardz, it works great on dusty walls. Its similar to a stain. Its very thin, and penetrates into the surface. When I skim coat walls, I sand with a shop vac attachment, so dust isnt ever an issue for me, but I usually use a mixture of gardz and Seal grip acrylic primer, single coated.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

This job is turning into a nightmare!!! I just got a call and the panels already hung a as much as 2' off plumb. That I am not understanding because I dropped a plumb bob and it dropped freely and I snapped the line. A level says the line is not plumb. Worse, I thought so when I eyeballed it as well but thought it must be optics. How can a chalk line not be plumb short of drag? This job is going to put me in my grave.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Thats a bummer.... I hate when that happens. Just when you think its nice and plumb, then the ceiling pattern starts getting off...


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Thats a bummer.... I hate when that happens. Just when you think its nice and plumb, then the ceiling pattern starts getting off...



You would not believe how uneven the ceiling line is. Anyway, they have now put oil primer over the whole business and STILL have not finished the taping of the dry wall. The new primer coat appears to have been poorly done as there are large patches where it is clearly not covered and the first primer level is visible in large patches. 



For the first time in my life I walked away from a job I had already started. I left a letter for the job supervisor. To the volunteer on the site, I simply said, "I'm done here". I packed up all my gear and left. 



I still feel kind of nauseated; this is the first time I have had a job so badly off the rails I felt no option other than to walk away. I fear if I continued, it would be all down hill and I would be held libel and possibly be sued. If I walk now, they are clearly responsible for all issues. I preferred to leave it that way. :sad:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> You would not believe how uneven the ceiling line is. Anyway, they have now put oil primer over the whole business and STILL have not finished the taping of the dry wall. The new primer coat appears to have been poorly done as there are large patches where it is clearly not covered and the first primer level is visible in large patches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jennifer, as they say, $hit happens. Better to get out now than to complete the job and be told it's not right. If they would have let you prime the walls instead of some unknowledgeable volunteers, it may have gone smoothly.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> Jennifer, as they say, $hit happens. Better to get out now than to complete the job and be told it's not right. If they would have let you prime the walls instead of some unknowledgeable volunteers, it may have gone smoothly.



At the very least I would have been able to adjust the line of the paper. Worse,, they tell me they measured to the last inch, deducted all windows and doors but failed to say how much they allowed per wall. Is it from ceiling to baseboards (No baseboards on yet), or was it ceiling to floor? There are multiple windows or doors on all walls, did they allow for the 24 inches required for pattern matching on each of those short cuts? What I do know is they did not allow even an inch extra on the measuring that I had nothing to do with! I deeply suspect they will be one roll short at the end!, cheaping out to the absolute minimum required as per the printed company info. The company can not see the details of the rooms when they write those things up. When I order paper I always order 1 extra roll to as a safety precaution, this is especially true an really large pattern matches.

I just could not gamble it! What we all know is, if it does not work out as the buyer had hoped we will be held responsible for their stupidity! That could be expensive if only in lost hours and materials. With a group like that, they might even try suing for damages or some other B$ reason! That would cost a lot more time and money even if I won the case. It would still take a lawyer, time and added stress. NOT WORTH THE GAMBLE!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I so like this woman...LOLOLOL


jennifertemple said:


> Too Late. They have it and are putting it on as we speak. I refuse to destroy my peace of mind for a bunch of do-goody idiots. The should have asked me to do the painting and they would not be up to their eyeballs in head aches. I would have started with a excellent latex/superior adhesion primer but they never asked me.
> 
> 
> 
> Still what's the issue with paste over oil primed walls. What new PITA am I looking forward to.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I asked the girls at my local paint shop about that primer and why they don't have it on the shelves. They basically told me they're supposed to but don't because they don't need the headaches it'd cause. I'd never even heard of it until this thread and I thought I'd been forced at one point or another to use all of Beautitone's various primers. That stuff sounds terrible.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I thought I'd been forced at one point or another to use all of Beautitone's various primers. That stuff sounds terrible.


Terrible does not even begin to describe this crap. I did not even recognize it as primer! I told the guy supervising "the walls were painted in some cheap latex" then corrected myself when I found the paint pail it came from.
:vs_no_no_no:
The smartest thing I ever did, in 40 years, is walk off this job. 
:vs_wave:
The supervisor who claims to be be a "specialist in historical restorations" does not ever want anyone to see the job done on this "historical village"! I did a walk around the village. All the exteriors of the buildings were painted over the last 18 months. The paint is peeling on every single piece of work. You could strip the sills and railings just by running your hand over it! Not a single thing on the site was done right or done by a pro. If I was asked for a reference for this "specialist" I'd just tell them to go have a look around this village. That will tell anything a person could need to know about what can be expected. What an expensive mess!
:thumbdown:
I originally took the job, sight unseen, because the guy contacting me claimed to be a specialist in historical restorations and I thought it might increase the number of historical houses I might get offered. It would more likely ruin me if people thought I had done work on this village project.
:vs_laugh:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Be happy!*



jennifertemple said:


> Terrible does not even begin to describe this crap. I did not even recognize it as primer! I told the guy supervising "the walls were painted in some cheap latex" then corrected myself when I found the paint pail it came from.
> :vs_no_no_no:
> The smartest thing I ever did, in 40 years, is walk off this job.
> :vs_wave:
> ...


Jennifer, after you get through with all the angst and disappointment this job has given you, you should have a big smile on your face the next time you approach a job where you are asked to be one of too many cooks trying to spoil a broth. If the customer/GC shows you into the kitchen and you see that the other cooks have only gotten as far as heating up some water, you might explain to whoever is wanting to hire you that you will take the job if you will be the chief cook and can control what is going on. If not, your smile should get even bigger as you say "no thanks", then turn around and leave.

Or some such thing.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jennifertemple said:


> Worse,, they tell me they measured to the last inch, deducted all windows and doors but failed to say how much they allowed per wall. Is it from ceiling to baseboards (No baseboards on yet), or was it ceiling to floor? There are multiple windows or doors on all walls, did they allow for the 24 inches required for pattern matching on each of those short cuts? What I do know is they did not allow even an inch extra on the measuring that I had nothing to do with!


Wow... Every now and then I get someone trying to fight with me about measurements. "Well, the room is 100 square feet, and I added 10% for waste, and subtracted for the window and door, so I m ordering two rolls instead of three."

Me. "Good luck with that. Have a nice day."


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

s


jennifertemple said:


> Again, I ask, Why has this recently become an issue? Oil primers used to be preferred prior to paper.


 

That's the key, sounds to me like you did the right thing and walked


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