# Polishing Poly



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

How has everyone’s pandemic been going lately?
I started this project during lockdown in March/April, and just getting back to it again now. (epoxy over stained cedar, then top-coated that with polyurethane.)

The finish was marred from bad handling/storage, and got some overspray on it somehow, so it looked (and felt) pretty rough.

Has anyone experimented with polishing poly before? It is a first for me, but so far I like the control it gives me over the finished result.
Using a variable speed polisher and some car buffing compounds to experiment with the sheen...

I am finding that depending on which compound I use, I can achieve a satin or gloss finish.

BEFORE:









AFTER:


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> How has everyone’s pandemic been going lately?
> I started this project during lockdown in March/April, and just getting back to it again now. (epoxy over stained cedar, then top-coated that with polyurethane.)
> 
> The finish was marred from bad handling, and got some overspray on it somehow, so it looked (and felt) pretty rough.
> ...


Looks great!

I’ve tried everything under the sun to polish alkyd urethane clears and have never been able to achieve a satisfactory look due to the micro-abrasives rendering semi-transparent micro-abrasions on the film rather than clear which always resulted in a haze. I’ve however had great results with acrylic urethanes which polish up nicely.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

It's a lot of physical work to get it to look that way, but what else am I going to do???
wet sanded with 1500, then started experimenting with coarse compounds up to Meguiares Cleaner Wax.

I need to figure out a way to do the same thing with the windows. Unfortunately there are a lot of corners and edges. Any ideas? Something just to improve the feel... knock off the dust texture a bit, keeping the Satin sheen?


----------



## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Pledge and a microfiber. Like a piece of furniture.


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Masterwork said:


> Pledge and a microfiber. Like a piece of furniture.


Pledge being it contains silicone is one of the worst things to use if you ever plan on recoating somewhere’s down the line..oil poly will fisheye like mad. I had some builder dry mop some floors with pledge sprayed on a mop head before running my final coat. The floors were literally unfinish-able after that. Also had that happen on another flooring project where the builder used mineral oil containing Endust.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I don't ever planning to re-finish this again in my lifetime, so I am not opposed to using pledge...BUT...

If the pledge doesn't fix the surface grime, then I will have to worry about dealing with the silicone residue, and I know Silicone is a monster.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

*I read (before trying it out) that some woodworkers like to buff polyurethane finishes with automotive compounds- that they are generally water-soluble (and therefore somewhat easy to remove). Haven't verified that, but that is the assumption I have been operating under.

I have so many coats of Epoxy and Polyurethane (maybe 10-15) on the benches, that I could literally polish them for a lifetime and never burn through the clear. I believe in thoroughly overkilling some projects (while actively neglecting others).


----------



## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

If the finish is finished, there's no issue with any sort of polish or wax. If you look at it and think "that needs another coat", then you shouldn't be worried about polishing it. Sand it and coat it. 

I treat finished wood like a car's finish. Protect and maintain it, don't worry about recoat.


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

In a pinch I’ve used some very soft ultra-fine bronze wool lubricated with a little paste wax by HF Staples and it worked ehh at best..followed by a soft gentle buffing with either the bronze wool w/out wax and/or a microfiber cloth. It worked better on low build and lower sheen oil poly finishes which were tight to the grain, yet think it wouldn’t work too well with higher build and higher sheen finishes. The oil poly finishes needed more than a month curing before doing it though.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> In a pinch I’ve used some very soft ultra-fine bronze wool lubricated with a little paste wax by HF Staples and it worked ehh at best..followed by a soft gentle buffing with either the bronze wool w/out wax and/or a microfiber cloth. It worked better on low build and lower sheen oil poly finishes which were tight to the grain, yet think it wouldn’t work too well with higher build and higher sheen finishes. The oil poly finishes needed more than a month curing before doing it though.


Yes, that’s what I was looking for. That sounds worth a try.


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Yes, that’s what I was looking for. That sounds worth a try.


Some of my best finish work was in fact buffed out with the method described in my previous post with oil polys that contained lower resin and higher oil contents...the finishes came out slick as ice. It didn’t work too well with polys containing higher resin contents though, always having that haze I mentioned. I’ve never tried it on really high build films though.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Some of my best finish work was in fact buffed out with the method described in my previous post with oil polys that contained lower resin and higher oil contents...the finishes came out slick as ice. It didn’t work too well with polys containing higher resin contents though, always having that haze I mentioned. I’ve never tried it on really high build films though.


Edit [correction] Last n Last Oil Polyurethane
(Satin)

should buff out to a nice satin I would think. Has been drying for a couple months.

it’s nothing special, but it’s the same product I used to top-coat the benches, and they buff out w/o issues.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)




----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Minwax Fast-dry Oil Polyurethane
> (Satin)
> 
> should buff out to a nice satin I would think. Has been drying for a couple months.
> ...


I have used that same finish in satin on a couple of door packs in the VOC exempt quarts which is different than the gallons if I’m not mistaken. I was able to micro-abrade the clear using what I think were the black Festool micro abrasive pads with the foam backing which were only available for the rotary sanders but I cut them to fit a fine orbital finish sander using that. I think I used #2000 pads (would need to verify though) and just wiped down with mineral spirits to remove the dust after sanding and just left them as is without waxing or using polishing compounds. The finish came out really nice, but once again it was a low build tight to the grain film and not like what you’re dealing with.

I also did use that same finish in a large floor to ceiling cherry wood bathroom years ago and used the wax lubricated bronze wool and it did work well too.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Do you have a link to the black Festool micro abrasive pads? I'll try a couple!
I enjoy learning and experimenting, especially when it's not critical that it turns out a certain way.

Man, why are Festool tools so expensive??? AND, they still have a cord?


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Do you have a link to the black Festool micro abrasive pads? I'll try a couple!
> I enjoy learning and experimenting, especially when it's not critical that it turns out a certain way.
> 
> Man, why are Festool tools so expensive??? AND, they still have a cord?


They’re certainly expensive but worth every penny and the cost is recovered quickly.

On the abrasive note:
Being that I did all three projects some 15 or more years ago and didn’t maintain a record of the exact Festool abrasive(s)used, the closest abrasive category looks like Platin 2 and the specific item being S2000 w/item #492376. They also have #’s 500, 1000, and 4000. The 2000 didn’t remove heavy nibs but did knock them down to some degree. 

One thing I forgot to mention with the Minwax poly is that I had some minor issues with witness lines only in the bathroom and not on the doors. It appears that the successive clear coats didn’t amalgamate and burn into the previous coats too well in areas and when using the bronze wool, if burning through the top layer, it sometimes resulted in a visible witness line. Also, there are very few resources for the 0000 ultra fine bronze wool. I always had a heck of time trying to find a supplier, but it’s a heck of a lot softer than ultra fine steel wool and works nicely.

And don’t have too great of expectations because I can’t vouch for how it will look or work with a film as heavy as what you’ve got goin’ on. Polishing out oil polys is often hit or miss, more miss than hit.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

What am I missing here Holland? First off, how come there are so many coats on there? 2nd, why not just sand and put another coat of poly on? I've never done the polish thing myself..


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> They’re certainly expensive but worth every penny and the cost is recovered quickly.
> 
> On the abrasive note:
> Being that I did all three projects some 15 or more years ago and didn’t maintain a record of the exact Festool abrasive(s)used, the closest abrasive category looks like Platin 2 and the specific item being S2000 w/item #492376. They also have #’s 500, 1000, and 4000. The 2000 didn’t remove heavy nibs but did knock them down to some degree.
> ...


Thank you


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Sure, I could sand and put another coat on, but there are a number of things going on here...

I have some down time recently, and this is just something I want to spend some time working on. There are so many coats on it now, do you really think it needs another coat, lol!

Part of the reason for so many coats is because it has been a learning experience. I had to use a lot of seal coat for starters to achieve a desirable stain, as the cedar was so porous. What I learned is that you cannot epoxy over oil based stain, but oil based poly is a resin, and is compatible.

I did a layer or two of poly, followed by at least 5 coats of epoxy, probably more. The knots were big, and kept leaving craters, no matter how much I flooded them (learning experience).

When I finally got the epoxy relatively leveled out, it is recommended to poly over that, for UV and moisture protection (3 coats minimum). However, I decided about halfway through, that the color needed to be a little darker, to match the window trim, so I sprayed a few more stain-tinted-poly coats until I felt it was close enough.

Seems like there’s always some junk in the finish coat, that you can feel, even if it looks good- in this case I stored it in back of a work area for a few months, and did not protect the piece as well I should have.

I’m looking for a way to have more control over the finished results of clear coating. I do enough of this type of work for that to be useful, and is lacking skill for me.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> They’re certainly expensive but worth every penny and the cost is recovered quickly.
> 
> On the abrasive note:
> Being that I did all three projects some 15 or more years ago and didn’t maintain a record of the exact Festool abrasive(s)used, the closest abrasive category looks like Platin 2 and the specific item being S2000 w/item #492376. They also have #’s 500, 1000, and 4000. The 2000 didn’t remove heavy nibs but did knock them down to some degree.
> ...


Redux, thanks for all your input today - you are a fount of knowledge. 

I ordered the Super Fine Bronze Wool, HF Staples Paste Wax and the 2000 grit Festool pads after I recovered from sticker shock. 
They make sense to me.


----------



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Holland said:


> *I read (before trying it out) that some woodworkers like to buff polyurethane finishes with automotive compounds- that they are generally water-soluble (and therefore somewhat easy to remove). Haven't verified that, but that is the assumption I have been operating under.
> 
> I have so many coats of Epoxy and Polyurethane (maybe 10-15) on the benches, that I could literally polish them for a lifetime and never burn through the clear. I believe in thoroughly overkilling some projects (while actively neglecting others).


This works fine with oil-based poly where the layers of finish dissolve into each other making for one thick finish. On water-based poly you end up with layers. If you polish with compound on water-based and you compound through one layer you will see the layer show up on the finish. 

I've polished shellac built up with many coats and it ended up as smooth and shiny as a violin. (But it was a very small project--I think a table like that would have worn me out.)


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Packard said:


> This works fine with oil-based poly where the layers of finish dissolve into each other making for one thick finish. On water-based poly you end up with layers. If you polish with compound on water-based and you compound through one layer you will see the layer show up on the finish.
> 
> I've polished shellac built up with many coats and it ended up as smooth and shiny as a violin. (But it was a very small project--I think a table like that would have worn me out.)


Shellac is a traditional finish, but can achieve superb results such as with French Polishing.
I primarily work with oil Poly.

EDIT: I believe Shellac is one of the least-toxic varnishes to work with. (not confirmed). Is certainly an interesting finish, but I don't know much about it.


----------



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Holland said:


> Shellac is a traditional finish, but can achieve superb results such as with French Polishing.
> I primarily work with oil Poly.
> 
> EDIT: I believe Shellac is one of the least-toxic varnishes to work with. (not confirmed). Is certainly an interesting finish, but I don't know much about it.


When dry, shellac is 100% non-toxic. Food glaze is made from shellac. Every piece of M & M you've ever eaten is covered with shellac. The carrier (solvent) is not non-toxic. But once it evaporates, no issues.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Packard said:


> This works fine with oil-based poly where the layers of finish dissolve into each other making for one thick finish. On water-based poly you end up with layers. If you polish with compound on water-based and you compound through one layer you will see the layer show up on the finish.
> 
> I've polished shellac built up with many coats and it ended up as smooth and shiny as a violin. (But it was a very small project--I think a table like that would have worn me out.)


Its my understanding that waterborne poly does actually burn into itself. I could be wrong though.


----------



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I don't believe that waterborne will. I could be wrong. If it did, that would mean that water itself would melt into the finish and most of these finishes resist water pretty well.


----------



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

This from Homestead Finishing Products. I think I was correct for most but not all waterborne finishes:





__





Rubbing Out Finishes - Homestead Finishing Products


Finishes rarely look or "feel" right if left right off the brush or spray gun. Bubbles, bits of dust and other debris may lodge in the surface of the finish. You can feel these with your hand as you pass it over the surface. Brush marks and patterns from spray application will leave an irregular...



homesteadfinishingproducts.com





*The finish itself*_ – Since rubbing out removes finish, be sure to start with a thick enough one. The type of finish you use also has an effect*. Solvent release finishes like shellac, solvent lacquer and some water-based finishes fuse together to form a single thickness of finish film*. Reactive finishes like varnish and some two-part finishes do not melt into each other. This can pose a problem if you rub too much – you can rub through the last finish into the previous one and this shows up as a witness line. Fortunately, most reactive finishes have a higher solids content which means you have more dried finish build _


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Curious, do Polish coats tend to get lots of Czechs in them like many Finish coats do?
Sorry... I just had to.


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

RH said:


> Curious, do Polish coats tend to get lots of Czechs in them like many Finish coats do?
> Sorry... I just had to.


I could Czech in with a friend about this who does more poly than I. I've never had to experiment because I'm a Slav to keeping my Finnish work clean and protected.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Joe67 said:


> I could Czech in with a friend about this who does more poly than I. I've never had to experiment because I'm a Slav to keeping my Finnish work clean and protected.


budabump..tsss. 🤐


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> budabump..tsss. 🤐


RH started it!


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Joe67 said:


> RH started it!


Not a word of a lie. I was once in Mexico drinking White Russians at this party. A lady comes up and starts chatting to me. In her broken English, tells me she is from Russia.
I chuckle and tell her what I'm drinking. She didn't get the joke.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

...there’s a lot of graffiti on this wall.


----------

