# Decks and all the mis information around them



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Okay, during my apprenticeship the only residential I stepped into were side jobs. During trade school residential painting was never talked about, so I would like to get some other professional opinions about proper deck painting. 

I know how to paint a deck properly, it's just first I hear that the underside shouldn't be touched so moisture can wick out at the bottom of the boards, then there's the 'it needs to be completely sealed in order to make the coatings last longer' and so on. 

Any advice any of you care to share?


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Don't paint decks. Oil stain. Superdeck solid if you must go solid color. All sides.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

How many decks have you seen coated on all sides? If the edges between boards are included, I have seen zero since it would need to be prefinished. If you just mean accessible areas after it was built, I have seen 2. And the bottom of one of those was failing horribly.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Okay, during my apprenticeship the only residential I stepped into were side jobs. During trade school residential painting was never talked about, so I would like to get some other professional opinions about proper deck painting.
> 
> I know how to paint a deck properly, it's just first I hear that the underside shouldn't be touched so moisture can wick out at the bottom of the boards, then there's the 'it needs to be completely sealed in order to make the coatings last longer' and so on.
> 
> Any advice any of you care to share?


virtually every manufacturer says that ALL sides must be coated, including the cut ends, for any warranty to be valid. BUT, you never see that on a label! If they actually put that on their labels they would never sell any! In fact you would be hard pressed to get a sales rep or a store person to ever mention it to you. This was pretty well known 20-25 years ago but because everyone has to keep up with the box stores it is pretty universally ignored today.

I am in the process of re-doing my deck for the first time in 9 years. Until now I restained the horizontal portion twice and the vertical portion once.
When I built it, every piece was stained before use. We kept a can of stain on the saw table and when every piece was cut to fit it was stained on the cut. I have had absolutely no pealing, no warping, minimal cracking, and minimal shrinkage. The bottom of the deck looks like it was stained a week ago. In fact by doing this I honestly believe I will get 40-50 years out of this deck.

Now, what wood supplier is going to tell anyone how to make a deck last 50 years? Not a good marketing scheme. In fact, most of the advice they give will actually shorten the life of the deck. Most deck refinishers aren't going to tell people that either unfortunately!

Not to mention the fact that it takes forever to build a deck while you are staining all sides of every board. Decks would take weeks to build and cost 2-3 times as much to build as they do now. That's another big reason why it never gets done that way, as well as why the builders typically tell people to let it weather for a while. That way they are just building decks and not staining them. They can build a lot more of them and that's where they make their money. Plus, having the wood already starting the rotting process means that the decks won't have a chance of lasting 40 years.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Pre finishing decking isn't that big a deal if you get it done before you are trying to build it. A lot cheaper to spray out a stack of lumber too. 

The issue is having to buy re-dried to be able to pre finish because of high moisture in PT. That and the total lack of give a damn most deck builders have about finishing.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

straight_lines said:


> Pre finishing decking isn't that big a deal if you get it done before you are trying to build it. A lot cheaper to spray out a stack of lumber too.
> 
> The issue is having to buy re-dried to be able to pre finish because of high moisture in PT. That and the total lack of give a damn most deck builders have about finishing.




That's it in a nutshell!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Speaking of mis-information on decks, has anyone seen the Infrared reflective stains yet? Why worry about IR if wood doesn't absorb it. And their marketing says it reduces ultraviolet damage. Huh? They are at two opposite ends of the light spectrum.

yet if you read the data sheets, you get about half of the story. You are limited to package colors (3). And, the Infrared reflective property only helps the finish from breaking down. Of course if the finish breaks down, you will have UV damage to the wood. Nothing new at all. Same with every other finish out there. In fact, they provide no more warranty against film deterioration then they do for any of their other stains.
And, there is no warranty against UV deterioration of the wood.

So why is it so much more expensive you ask? Good question. I have no idea other than having to pay for the marketing.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I was talking to my local store manager a few weeks back and asked. He said it was about heat retention and those colors being cooler to foot. There is a lot of concurs among many of our clients when choosing a decking material about how hot the material will get.


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## Shakey0818 (Feb 1, 2012)

I just power washed this deck last week.I will be applying Super Decks Elastomeric to the decking boards only.The hand rails ans spindles will get coated the end of the season or next year.My customer as well as i wondered if we should do the underneath.Usually I only do the underneath if it is a usable area like for grilling or a patio area.I am figuring at this point in the wood is closing in on its last leg . I'm thinking a coat to the bottom would help the longevity by a little.
I never used the elastomeric before but heard it has to be applied thick or it could crack.I think my best bet would be to use the regular Superdeck on the underneath.I think the weight of the elastomeric pulling down on an overhead surface could be a concern.
Having done many decks and working my azz off to do the best prep and by using the best products has made my customers very happy on the longevity of my paint /stain jobs.I'v done decks like this and haven't had to go back and re stain for 5-7+years.My customers mean a lot to me so i give them the very best work i can.Even if i have to come here for advice at time.Sometimes we give it sometimes we take it.

















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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shakey0818 said:


> I just power washed this deck last week.I will be applying Super Decks Elastomeric to the decking boards only.The hand rails ans spindles will get coated the end of the season or next year.My customer as well as i wondered if we should do the underneath.Usually I only do the underneath if it is a usable area like for grilling or a patio area.I am figuring at this point in the wood is closing in on its last leg . I'm thinking a coat to the bottom would help the longevity by a little.
> I never used the elastomeric before but heard it has to be applied thick or it could crack.I think my best bet would be to use the regular Superdeck on the underneath.I think the weight of the elastomeric pulling down on an overhead surface could be a concern.
> 
> 
> ...


Would you expound on that, please?


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## Shakey0818 (Feb 1, 2012)

Obviously the deck has some large crack on top that may not be completely filled with the stain.Water will seep into those cracks and will naturally want to come out the bottom.I believe the reg Superdeck stain would be more breathable than the elastomeric.As far as the weight what i'm saying is that if a product is applied at 10 mils it would be heavier than 4 mils.That being said combined with the above theory makes me thing that the heavier less breathable product would pull easier.Like saying if you plaster a ceiling with 1" of plaster opposed to a skim it's more likely to "pull" off/down easier.
I may be completely wrong.That's why i post my opinions.1-To give my onion and 2-To be corrected if going in the wrong direction.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> Speaking of mis-information on decks, has anyone seen the Infrared reflective stains yet? Why worry about IR if wood doesn't absorb it. And their marketing says it reduces ultraviolet damage. Huh? They are at two opposite ends of the light spectrum.
> 
> yet if you read the data sheets, you get about half of the story. You are limited to package colors (3). And, the Infrared reflective property only helps the finish from breaking down. Of course if the finish breaks down, you will have UV damage to the wood. Nothing new at all. Same with every other finish out there. In fact, they provide no more warranty against film deterioration then they do for any of their other stains.
> And, there is no warranty against UV deterioration of the wood.
> ...


Sounds like it is about heat and comfort underfoot. This is from SW's press release:

"SuperDeck IR Reflective Waterborne Deck Stains
IR reflective technology contains pigments that reflect ultraviolet rays back into the atmosphere. As a result, the exterior surface temperature of wood decks stay cooler on the foot compared to conventional dark stain colors that are difficult to walk on in warm, sunny days. This technology is available in three colors in both the Waterborne Semi-Solid Color and Solid Color stains."

The temperature part makes sense, but whoever wrote the press release is a little confused about the whole IR/UV thing.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

As far as I know, every deck stain with trans oxide pigments is doing the same thing. Gotta love marketing...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Sounds like it is about heat and comfort underfoot. This is from SW's press release:
> 
> "SuperDeck IR Reflective Waterborne Deck Stains
> IR reflective technology contains pigments that reflect ultraviolet rays back into the atmosphere. As a result, the exterior surface temperature of wood decks stay cooler on the foot compared to conventional dark stain colors that are difficult to walk on in warm, sunny days. This technology is available in three colors in both the Waterborne Semi-Solid Color and Solid Color stains."
> ...


Yeah I read that press release. All I can say is uuuugh. More smoke up our collective arses. I wonder if it has the waterproofing added too. And the primer.

Their literature says that those three colors are much cooler than other darker stains. No ****. You don't even have to read between the lines on this one. There actually selling the bull5hit!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> Yeah I read that press release. All I can say is uuuugh. More smoke up our collective arses. I wonder if it has the waterproofing added too. And the primer.
> 
> Their literature says that those three colors are much cooler than other darker stains. No ****. You don't even have to read between the lines on this one. There actually selling the bull5hit!


Are you as skeptical about the vinyl-safe colors as well? Just curious.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Saw a deck product with "military spec" on the label. More marketing smoke there IMHO. 


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Are you as skeptical about the vinyl-safe colors as well? Just curious.


I'm skeptical about how the darker vinyl safe colors will effect the cheap vinyl siding that is about 30% thinner then the premium lines. And the cheap vinyl siding brands that are not manufactured to stand up to the 57deg LRV or above standard that the premium siding brands adhere to.

The one thing I am not skeptical about is the fact that the first time someone paints a cheap no LRV standard vinyl and it warps all to crap, Sherwin Williams isn't going to dig into their pockets to fix it! Substrate mechanical failure it is called.

And I'm also not skeptical that it is only a matter of time before it happens.

I'm also not skeptical that some of the SW buffoons are selling the Superpaint and Durations exteriors as being the reason for the vinyl-safe rating and NOT the color. I just had a painter a few weeks ago tell me that the sales clerk at SW (he thought it was the assistant manager, but he wasn't sure) told him any color in the SW color line will be vinyl safe if it is made in one of those two paint lines. That is not true. If it is a color that can be made with the specified vinyl safe colors then yes. But the color his customer was after, a dark almost black green, no way in hell. On white vinyl siding no less. I haven't heard anything back on this.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DeanV said:


> Saw a deck product with "military spec" on the label. More marketing smoke there IMHO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's funny! I doubt if there has been any updates to the "mil spec" coatings list in over 30 years!


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DeanV said:


> Saw a deck product with "military spec" on the label. More marketing smoke there IMHO.


Sounds tacti-cool!!!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> That's funny! I doubt if there has been any updates to the "mil spec" coatings list in over 30 years!


2015-2011=4 years:whistling2:


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I hate decks.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Sand em, sand em, and sand em some more. New, old, or in between. No better prep IMO. 

Just don't "polish" them with too fine a grit. 60 seems to be the sweet spot to me.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gymschu said:


> I hate decks.


I just plain walk away from ALL decks,period:yes:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> 2015-2011=4 years:whistling2:


Oh but those changes were pretty much small updates.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> I hate decks.


me too. But unfortunately I have to deal with them. And if I am forced to do so I am going to do it the best I can.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> Sand em, sand em, and sand em some more. New, old, or in between. No better prep IMO.
> 
> Just don't "polish" them with too fine a grit. 60 seems to be the sweet spot to me.


 That and don't be cheap with the sandpaper. My prep guys are always sanding with clogged sheets of paper. Just a pet peeve of mine but polishing a deck never ends well. Leave the 120 grit at home and be aggressive. 24-80 grit should be in your arsenal. Along with 6amp ROS variable speed ROS.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Boco said:


> That and don't be cheap with the sandpaper. My prep guys are always sanding with clogged sheets of paper. Just a pet peeve of mine but polishing a deck never ends well. Leave the 120 grit at home and be aggressive. 24-80 grit should be in your arsenal. Along with 6amp ROS variable speed ROS.


The other issue with clogged sandpaper is that it polishes the wood just like a finer grit does. Probably better.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

There is no benefit to sealing deck floor boards on all sides other than maybe aesthetics if it is elevated.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> There is no benefit to sealing deck floor boards on all sides other than maybe aesthetics if it is elevated.


The stain manufacturers would disagree with you on that one. At least the SW, PPG, BM, California, P&L, Olympic, True Value, Duron, Flood, Cuprinol, Wolman's, Cabot's, TWP, Sikkens, brands that I have sold would. I don't know what the other brands say about it though.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd point the bottom side staining conversation to this thread: http://www.painttalk.com/f2/staining-underside-deck-14084/ where @NACE made a very good post.

The tl;dr is that, assuming your moisture content is right in the wood, staining all sides is usually a good choice. On the other hand, if you are lazy, incompetent, or inexperienced, you may just cause premature failure of the coating and damage to the wood if you trap too much moisture in it. Given how much rain we've had locally this season and how wet wood is these days in general when it comes from the mill, I'd just about recommend against staining the bottom unless you're going to commit to making sure you're drying out the wood properly (which has been pretty hard this season).


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I'd point the bottom side staining conversation to this thread: http://www.painttalk.com/f2/staining-underside-deck-14084/ where @*NACE* made a very good post.
> 
> The tl;dr is that, assuming your moisture content is right in the wood, staining all sides is usually a good choice. On the other hand, if you are lazy, incompetent, or inexperienced, you may just cause premature failure of the coating and damage to the wood if you trap too much moisture in it. Given how much rain we've had locally this season and how wet wood is these days in general when it comes from the mill, I'd just about recommend against staining the bottom unless you're going to commit to making sure you're drying out the wood properly (which has been pretty hard this season).


 Hey I just follow the instructions man.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

If you did that you'd be skipping primer on everything these days


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> The stain manufacturers would disagree with you on that one. At least the SW, PPG, BM, California, P&L, Olympic, True Value, Duron, Flood, Cuprinol, Wolman's, Cabot's, TWP, Sikkens, brands that I have sold would. I don't know what the other brands say about it though.


Stain manufacturers also make acrylic products which peel and are terrible to maintain and almost impossible to strip.. AND guarantee them for five years which they never make. You sell wood products, I use them in the field and have for 14 years, hundreds of thousands of square feet. No disrespect intended, there is just a difference in real world versus labs and labels.

Let me explain what happens when you seal all sides of wood. In a perfect world, people maintain their decks and a finish never gets to advanced failure. The problem is, that is not what people do. The sun and weather destroys the integrity of the topcoat and moisture gets into the wood. With the bottom sealed and the vapor transmission properties of the wood changed by the underside coating, the wood hold moisture longer, gets moldy faster and rots quicker.

I stand by what I said originally with one clarification.. on a deck floor, there is no advantage to sealing all sides of the wood except for aesthetics (patio under a raised deck for example). On siding, there would be a benefit.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> Stain manufacturers also make acrylic products which peel and are terrible to maintain and almost impossible to strip.. AND guarantee them for five years which they never make. You sell wood products, I use them in the field and have for 14 years, hundreds of thousands of square feet. No disrespect intended, there is just a difference in real world versus labs and labels.
> 
> Let me explain what happens when you seal all sides of wood. In a perfect world, people maintain their decks and a finish never gets to advanced failure. The problem is, that is not what people do. The sun and weather destroys the integrity of the topcoat and moisture gets into the wood. With the bottom sealed and the vapor transmission properties of the wood changed by the underside coating, the wood hold moisture longer, gets moldy faster and rots quicker.
> 
> I stand by what I said originally with one clarification.. on a deck floor, there is no advantage to sealing all sides of the wood except for aesthetics (patio under a raised deck for example). On siding, there would be a benefit.


Like I said, I'm just relating what the manufacturers say. Of course they could be saying to do all sides just to sell more stain. But the more stains fail, the more often they need to be stripped and redone. If they lasted more than 3-4 years there would be a lot of people in this business out of work. Same as the lumber retailers. If a stain lasted 15 years they would be out of business. But to think that companies like Sikkens and many others just make a product and throw it on the market without knowing the best application for it isn't really very smart. They spend millions developing these stains, and do quite a lot of research on coatings and wood properties. Just because most of the stain products ARE just thrown out into the market doesn't mean that the premium manufacturers don't know what they are doing.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

So, how does a wood deck get rid of the moisture it absorbs? Does the moisture condense in the wood and precipitate out of it? Or does the moisture evaporate? Why do decks coated with the "Restore" type products trap moisture if the bottom of those decks have never been coated? Hmmm. 'Tis a quandary. Why do the vertical surfaces seem to never peel? Yet as soon as the spring sun hits the horizontal surfaces, peel city? But the bottom isn't coated! WTH?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Another deck question. When did any stain manufacturers ever say that powerwashing was a good prep idea? Now of course the powerwasher manufacturers would say it was, and the people selling them. But when did the people who make the finishes say it was a good idea?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> Another deck question. When did any stain manufacturers ever say that powerwashing was a good prep idea?


http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-ca/for-your-home/blistering

"How to solve it.", second paragraph.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-ca/for-your-home/blistering
> 
> "How to solve it.", second paragraph.


yup. that's what it says. So what they are saying is that powerwashing doesn't physically shove the old paint into the wood. Or mildew and mold. Or old gray dead wood. None of that can happen. And if it does it would never cause a coating failure. Especially an acrylic.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I'm just trying to provoke some commentary to get to the bottom of this "Deck stain misinformation" thing. My belief is that the manufacturers have through the years given in to the "instant gratification" the market demands. When I was young, re-staining the deck every other year was a given. And that non-treated yellow pine deck lasted 37 years.

What is the actual misinformation? Oil better then acrylic? Powerwash-sanding-deck stripper/brightener? Let the wood age or do it ASAP? What is bad info and what is correct info? And who would know? That 37 year old deck was never stained with anything but cheap linseed oil redwood stain. How is anything sold today any better if people if for some reason no one thinks wood decks need to be maintained? And where do consumers get the idea that any deck material never needs maintenance?


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

PACman said:


> The stain manufacturers would disagree with you on that one. At least the SW, PPG, BM, California, P&L, Olympic, True Value, Duron, Flood, Cuprinol, Wolman's, Cabot's, TWP, Sikkens, brands that I have sold would. I don't know what the other brands say about it though.


 I would say its in the best interest of paint companies to recommend doing everything. One they will sell more product and two they will have an out if any problems occur.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Decks are an anomole in my opinion. No HO wants to hear the word 'maintenance', they'd rather kick back and sit on their deck rather than have to work on it or pay someone to do that.

I have absolutely no idea how coating companies get around the issue of different climates either. You can't expect a product to produce the same longevity in one climate as a different one, so how do you advertise it? It's not like they're going to change the labels for a deck stain in Vancouver where it rains steady for at least 4 months of the year to my area where it's bone chilling cold with 4' of snow piled on the deck in the winter and boiling hot in the summer (like today, omg it's hot shoot me). A person at the paint shop I use said the other day that it's like all products they sell here have basically a half life of what's advertised or commonly understood.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I tell people 1-2 years. No matter what they're putting on, no matter what prep they're doing. Some people walk out. So be it. I'm not going to lie to them, and I tell them up front I'm not going to lie to them like the other stores will. That's my reputation on the line when I answer that question. No one remembers the manufacturer's name, they remember the company that sold it to them.

I've seen decks fail when I know they've been done in the best way possible within 2 years, and I've seen decks last 40 with no love or attention at all. Bill is right. They're a wild card. It's all about managing expectations. When I'm asked "why use x stain when I can use y for cheaper" my best answer is just that it gives you a better chance if you treat it right. No guarantees.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> I tell people 1-2 years. No matter what they're putting on, no matter what prep they're doing. Some people walk out. So be it. I'm not going to lie to them, and I tell them up front I'm not going to lie to them like the other stores will. That's my reputation on the line when I answer that question. No one remembers the manufacturer's name, they remember the company that sold it to them. I've seen decks fail when I know they've been done in the best way possible within 2 years, and I've seen decks last 40 with no love or attention at all. Bill is right. They're a wild card. It's all about managing expectations. When I'm asked "why use x stain when I can use y for cheaper" my best answer is just that it gives you a better chance if you treat it right. No guarantees.


CWF-UV says 4 years on siding, 2 years on decks. Guess Flood has at least some integrity in their labeling.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> Like I said, I'm just relating what the manufacturers say. Of course they could be saying to do all sides just to sell more stain. But the more stains fail, the more often they need to be stripped and redone. If they lasted more than 3-4 years there would be a lot of people in this business out of work. Same as the lumber retailers. If a stain lasted 15 years they would be out of business. But to think that companies like Sikkens and many others just make a product and throw it on the market without knowing the best application for it isn't really very smart. They spend millions developing these stains, and do quite a lot of research on coatings and wood properties. Just because most of the stain products ARE just thrown out into the market doesn't mean that the premium manufacturers don't know what they are doing.


Manufacturers are unfortunately handcuffed when releasing products. The big companies are publicly traded and have to answer to stockholders. Right away that means that many of the millions on R&D are spent formulating a one size fits all product for different climates that performs to a laboratory spec and balances with the lawsuits and refunded product cost. 

Manufacturers sole consideration is profit. Marketing replaces the need for longevity. So one has to ask from various perspectives.. do they know what they are doing? Of course they do.. but from what angle are they designing and releasing products? What's best for wood and longevity? That's not realistic. Perhaps a company could design a products that would last a full ten years.. would it be in their interest to do so? I think you already answered that question elsewhere. 

My solution to that issue has been to go with small companies that have focused on what is best for wood versus large companies that have defined price points and margins. TWP (Amteco), Armstrong Clark, etc. 

Oils (true oils) are the only products that hold up on decks and are maintenance friendly. They don't just make a film forming barrier like products you buy at a paint store. The latter protects the deck as long as the barrier is intact. Like you also mentioned, on horizontal surfaces with standing snow/moisture and full sun absorption, these products fail quickly, and in epic, peeling proportion. Just like peeling paint, they have to be removed at that point. That is not my definition of longevity. Longevity for me is not how long a product lasts but how friendly it is to a quick cleaning and re-coat regardless of how progressed the failure is.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I remember thirty years ago when I first started selling paint that the Thompson's waterseal cans actually told consumers that it needed to be applied every 6-12 months and that the wood would naturally gray after a period of time. But people wanted the new wood look, so then came the semitransparent stains. But they still needed to be applied at least every other year, and after 3 or 4 applications it started to look more solid and consumers didn't like that either. Some where along the line the manufacturers had to start catering to the consumer demands instead of physics, and that is pretty much the deck stain market as we see it today. For a company to sell anything paint related they have to meet the demands of the consumer, and that means "long life", minimal prep, easy application, and many other things that can actually be worse in the long run than just doing the old school maintenance. 

There are some companies that try to make a quality product and try to educate the consumer on the true requirements of staining a deck, but they are getting few and far between. Unfortunately, the consumers are bombarded with untrue marketing geared directly towards their desire to stain or coat their deck as easily as possible. And unfortunately as it is right now it is those very consumers that are paying the price.

I carry the Cali storm system, and if you have ever used it, it is an extremely high quality product line. But when I have customers that want to buy it, I always explain the importance of the prep and how it will effect the longevity of the product. Quite often, due to the media bombardment they get every day they think I am wrong or am trying to rip them off. And then they flock to the box stores to buy Restore or deckover, and the results of using those products are well documented.

I think, and I am not a person who typically thinks this way, that there should be some kind of regulation in the industry pertaining to product labels and performance claims. As well as regulation of warrantees and label directions. Quite a few companies are pulling the "according to label directions" card but actually have most of the prep information not on the can label but on the data sheets.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> I carry the Cali storm system, and if you have ever used it, it is an extremely high quality product line. But when I have customers that want to buy it, I always explain the importance of the prep and how it will effect the longevity of the product. Quite often, due to the media bombardment they get every day they think I am wrong or am trying to rip them off. And then they flock to the box stores to buy Restore or deckover, and the results of using those products are well documented.
> 
> I think, and I am not a person who typically thinks this way, that there should be some kind of regulation in the industry pertaining to product labels and performance claims. As well as regulation of warrantees and label directions. Quite a few companies are pulling the "according to label directions" card but actually have most of the prep information not on the can label but on the data sheets.


A friend in the business from a New England state mentioned he liked the Cali Storm System sealer. I have not seen it around here so have not had the opportunity to put it through its paces.

Among other reasons, here is why I place no credence in manufacturer's or their claims. I had a customer demand I use Cabot's SPF48 so that their lack-of-planning deck could be finished in one day. This was when the product was new and before I turned down any job that dictates product specs. 

I warned the customer and made him sign a clause to my contract that said I had no experience with the product, that products of its type had inherent issues and that no warranty was implied. I followed Cabot's recommendations to the letter on prep. Sure enough, three months later I get named in a lawsuit. Cabot's legal representation did everything in their power to discredit my prep but I had photos and the process documented along with the waiver clause. In front of arbitration, Cabot then changed their own rules and said I should have sanded the deck and that moisture content should have been X%. I presented their label to the magistrate (or whatever he was called) and he laughed and told me I was dismissed as a defendant. He ruled in favor of the H.O. and awarded a return of my billing price to be paid by Cabot.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> A friend in the business from a New England state mentioned he liked the Cali Storm System sealer. I have not seen it around here so have not had the opportunity to put it through its paces.
> 
> Among other reasons, here is why I place no credence in manufacturer's or their claims. I had a customer demand I use Cabot's SPF48 so that their lack-of-planning deck could be finished in one day. This was when the product was new and before I turned down any job that dictates product specs.
> 
> I warned the customer and made him sign a clause to my contract that said I had no experience with the product, that products of its type had inherent issues and that no warranty was implied. I followed Cabot's recommendations to the letter on prep. Sure enough, three months later I get named in a lawsuit. Cabot's legal representation did everything in their power to discredit my prep but I had photos and the process documented along with the waiver clause. In front of arbitration, Cabot then changed their own rules and said I should have sanded the deck and that moisture content should have been X%. I presented their label to the magistrate (or whatever he was called) and he laughed and told me I was dismissed as a defendant. He ruled in favor of the H.O. and awarded a return of my billing price to be paid by Cabot.


The paint companies always stack the deck in their favor.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pun intended?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Pun intended?


My "Benjamin Moore" rep was just here. (no I am not a BM dealer! They just want me to be.) I was telling him about this thread. He told me he didn't want to talk about decks because almost every product failure complaint he has had this year is on a deck product, and usually because someone just put a BM product over another brands failed product with no prep whatsoever. For some reason someone has started using the Arborcoat clear over restore and deckover type products, but he can't actually find who is selling it to them.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Pun intended?


I wood never use a pun.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> For some reason someone has started using the Arborcoat clear over restore and deckover type products, but he can't actually find who is selling it to them.


That's terrifying for so many reasons.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> That's terrifying for so many reasons.


Believe it or not(reference an earlier thread), the Behr technical service line is telling contractors just to put a acrylic solid stain over the deckover and any pealed areas as a fix for the pealing. I know. They hung up on me because I was asking to many questions they didn't have answers for.

Again that was Behr's "technical" services department that couldn't tell me how to help a painter fix their product, and when I pressed them they hung up on me. HOW RUDE!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Least surprising thing I've heard all day?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

It's amazing how often these forum topics come up in my store. I just had a DIY customer come in that was looking for gel stain in gallons and marine grade spar urethane. I asked him what he wanted that for and he said someone at Lowe's told him it was the best thing to use on his deck! WHAT THE HELL? He said they told him it was the only thing that would hold up for 10 years. I asked this guy if he had ever known anyone who kept a wooden boat in the water year round and he said no. then I told him EVEN MARINE FINISHES ONLY LAST A YEAR OR TWO! Then they have to be stripped and sanded completely off and reapplied. (I had a friend that owned a boatyard in San Diego who was doing a booming business refinishing wood boats) Then I asked the guy if he was prepared to sand his deck every couple of years to refinish it and he got pissed and said I didn't know what I was talking about! Where do people get these crazy ideas? The box stores! And their employees that don't know or care about what they are talking about. Sometimes this store crap is amazing!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Does anyone else get Deckover adds on the sidebars whenever they click on this thread?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Ads on this site are so obtrusive I had to turn on adblock for it on my work computer. I don't usually like doing it, but they were literally causing my computer to freeze for a minute at a time, every time I opened a new page.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

This site is ridiculously monetized. I used to click on ad every day to help the forum owners. Now I block all of them. This is also the only site that I see monetized hyperlinks in threads. Its really lame.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Never once seen an ad on this forum. Have no idea why people grumble, yet don't get an ad blocking program. Probably takes less than 2 minutes to download, install and start running and it's free.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Never once seen an ad on this forum. Have no idea why people grumble, yet don't get an ad blocking program. Probably takes less than 2 minutes to download, install and start running and it's free.


Some of us would prefer to actually support the forums (servers, personnel, and rewards are all paid for by advertising I'm sure). Hard to keep that good will when they're this bad, though.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> Manufacturers are unfortunately handcuffed when releasing products. The big companies are publicly traded and have to answer to stockholders. Right away that means that many of the millions on R&D are spent formulating a one size fits all product for different climates that performs to a laboratory spec and balances with the lawsuits and refunded product cost.
> 
> Manufacturers sole consideration is profit. Marketing replaces the need for longevity. So one has to ask from various perspectives.. do they know what they are doing? Of course they do.. but from what angle are they designing and releasing products? What's best for wood and longevity? That's not realistic. Perhaps a company could design a products that would last a full ten years.. would it be in their interest to do so? I think you already answered that question elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Just an FYI. I know that I am not supposed to "sell" my product on this forum, but Cali has true alkyd S/T and semi-solid stains that are otc and voc compliant. Linseed oil even! Just like olden times.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Some of us would prefer to actually support the forums (servers, personnel, and rewards are all paid for by advertising I'm sure). Hard to keep that good will when they're this bad, though.


You mean Home depot and behrs right? Because every once in a while there is a Pratt & lambert add!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> You mean Home depot and behrs right? Because every once in a while there is a Pratt & lambert add!


I mean more about how disruptive they are. They can advertise with whoever they want; I might not like it, but it's not any of my business particularly. Main issue is that (last time I had them on, at least) ground my computer to halt and had video ads that played sound, among other things. Nothing like trying to work with a customer then all of a sudden my webpage starts playing a truck advertisement (or worse) because I left the PT tab up.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> Just an FYI. I know that I am not supposed to "sell" my product on this forum, but Cali has true alkyd S/T and semi-solid stains that are otc and voc compliant. Linseed oil even! Just like olden times.


I am lukewarm on alkyd resins. To me a true oil based sealer has a pure long chain and short chain oil combination. I like deep penetrating, non-drying oils like parafinic mixed with a drying oil like linseed to form a barrier closer to the surface.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Never once seen an ad on this forum. Have no idea why people grumble, yet don't get an ad blocking program. Probably takes less than 2 minutes to download, install and start running and it's free.


We both mentioned we block them. That's not the point.

My point is that there is a right way and a wrong way to monetize a site. I used to happily click on ads to give PT money when they were not intrusive.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

At the end of the day, I'm just praying that nobody asks me to do a deck in a month or so when morning dew is sitting on the deck on the South side of the house right up until the sun starts pounding away at it for the rest of the day and it's untouchable.

Just waiting for at least acceptable conditions at that point is incredibly painful and time consuming.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I mean more about how disruptive they are. They can advertise with whoever they want; I might not like it, but it's not any of my business particularly. Main issue is that (last time I had them on, at least) ground my computer to halt and had video ads that played sound, among other things. Nothing like trying to work with a customer then all of a sudden my webpage starts playing a truck advertisement (or worse) because I left the PT tab up.


I scared the crap out of some little kid doing that. Left PT up and some guy starts yelling an add. Poor kid just about pissed himself.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> I am lukewarm on alkyd resins. To me a true oil based sealer has a pure long chain and short chain oil combination. I like deep penetrating, non-drying oils like parafinic mixed with a drying oil like linseed to form a barrier closer to the surface.


 Yeah I like penetra... never mind.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> I am lukewarm on alkyd resins. To me a true oil based sealer has a pure long chain and short chain oil combination. I like deep penetrating, non-drying oils like parafinic mixed with a drying oil like linseed to form a barrier closer to the surface.


This Cali stuff is quite interesting. I did some samples on some pressure treated wood a few weeks ago, and they did have a very small amount of glossy film build on them. Not much. But now after a few weeks have gone by, there is no sign of any film build on them. They have been inside the whole time so there was no sun exposure. It's like as the resins cured the sheen dissipated, kind of like what some paint does. I have never seen an exterior stain do that without UV exposure. I found it quite interesting anyway.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

PACman said:


> I remember thirty years ago when I first started selling paint that the Thompson's waterseal cans actually told consumers that it needed to be applied every 6-12 months and that the wood would naturally gray after a period of time. But people wanted the new wood look, so then came the semitransparent stains. But they still needed to be applied at least every other year, and after 3 or 4 applications it started to look more solid and consumers didn't like that either. Some where along the line the manufacturers had to start catering to the consumer demands instead of physics, and that is pretty much the deck stain market as we see it today. For a company to sell anything paint related they have to meet the demands of the consumer, and that means "long life", minimal prep, easy application, and many other things that can actually be worse in the long run than just doing the old school maintenance.
> 
> There are some companies that try to make a quality product and try to educate the consumer on the true requirements of staining a deck, but they are getting few and far between. Unfortunately, the consumers are bombarded with untrue marketing geared directly towards their desire to stain or coat their deck as easily as possible. And unfortunately as it is right now it is those very consumers that are paying the price.
> 
> ...



Come on dude. The one thing this world needs is more f-ing regulations. What needs to be is better more knowledgeable salesman, like most guys are on here, and you sound like a great salesman, very knowledgeable. People are stupid, it's a fact, and just because there's a regulation doesn't mean they're gonna get any smarter! Someone once told me they wanted to use Restore...and I said, "I bet you watch a lot of tv huh? Have you looked on Amazon for the reviews of that product? It has one star out of 4, and it's only that many stars because you can't give zero. Go read the horror stories with that product!"
Other than regulations, I totally agree here that people's expectations on decks never meets anywhere close to reality. I hate decks. I hate that people want their decks done in the middle of 100 degree heat, when decks should be done in April and May and September and October. Plus with the extremely short redcoat time of the semi transparents, the homeowners never want to pay a premium for the work being done.
It's basically a disaster job, and even when it's done 100% right! Mother Nature can still wreck you!


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Just an FYI. I know that I am not supposed to "sell" my product on this forum, but Cali has true alkyd S/T and semi-solid stains that are otc and voc compliant. Linseed oil even! Just like olden times.


Doing a big deck with Cali Storm soon. Love the stuff.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> I am lukewarm on alkyd resins. To me a true oil based sealer has a pure long chain and short chain oil combination. I like deep penetrating, non-drying oils like parafinic mixed with a drying oil like linseed to form a barrier closer to the surface.


Hey, where did you learn, or where is a good place to learn more about the science of stains or the chemistry of coatings? I would like to better understand posts like these.

Also, I really dislike the monitized hyperlinks on PT.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> Hey, where did you learn, or where is a good place to learn more about the science of stains or the chemistry of coatings? I would like to better understand posts like these.
> 
> Also, I really dislike the monitized hyperlinks on PT.


I used to own a company that private labeled a sealing product called Woodzotic for exotic wood species. The manufacturer and I spent many hours on the phone and he was very knowledgeable.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> Come on dude. The one thing this world needs is more f-ing regulations. What needs to be is better more knowledgeable salesman, like most guys are on here, and you sound like a great salesman, very knowledgeable. People are stupid, it's a fact, and just because there's a regulation doesn't mean they're gonna get any smarter! Someone once told me they wanted to use Restore...and I said, "I bet you watch a lot of tv huh? Have you looked on Amazon for the reviews of that product? It has one star out of 4, and it's only that many stars because you can't give zero. Go read the horror stories with that product!"
> Other than regulations, I totally agree here that people's expectations on decks never meets anywhere close to reality. I hate decks. I hate that people want their decks done in the middle of 100 degree heat, when decks should be done in April and May and September and October. Plus with the extremely short redcoat time of the semi transparents, the homeowners never want to pay a premium for the work being done.
> It's basically a disaster job, and even when it's done 100% right! Mother Nature can still wreck you!


I just think that someone needs to hold the manufacturers a little more accountable for what they are claiming and advertising their products can do. If a product has a 90% failure rate in the market, something should be done about it. I have no idea what. The manufacturers fall back on the improper application/prep thing way too easily for my liking. It has gotten to the point where they feel they can put anything on the market and they don't have to worry about whether it works or not because there is very little recourse for the consumer when it fails. The manufacturers always have an out.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> I just think that someone needs to hold the manufacturers a little more accountable for what they are claiming and advertising their products can do. If a product has a 90% failure rate in the market, something should be done about it. I have no idea what. The manufacturers fall back on the improper application/prep thing way too easily for my liking. It has gotten to the point where they feel they can put anything on the market and they don't have to worry about whether it works or not because there is very little recourse for the consumer when it fails. The manufacturers always have an out.


This brings to mind something I've been saying for a long time. There's something to be said for mobs with pitchforks and torches a rocks. There's a time when businesses were held accountable for their actions because they knew it would literally destroy them if they weren't. But now with everything so regulated and peaceful, businesses don't have to fear any kind of retribution at all. I'm not an anarchist and I don't believe in violence, but there is definitely something to be said for the accountability of yore.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> This brings to mind something I've been saying for a long time. There's something to be said for mobs with pitchforks and torches a rocks. There's a time when businesses were held accountable for their actions because they knew it would literally destroy them if they weren't. But now with everything so regulated and peaceful, businesses don't have to fear any kind of retribution at all. I'm not an anarchist and I don't believe in violence, but there is definitely something to be said for the accountability of yore.




That's not one of those weird Iowa college bands is it? You know the ones with an overabundance of fiddles and accordions.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

PACman said:


> I just think that someone needs to hold the manufacturers a little more accountable for what they are claiming and advertising their products can do. If a product has a 90% failure rate in the market, something should be done about it. I have no idea what. The manufacturers fall back on the improper application/prep thing way too easily for my liking. It has gotten to the point where they feel they can put anything on the market and they don't have to worry about whether it works or not because there is very little recourse for the consumer when it fails. The manufacturers always have an out.



Here's your one and only proper out: stop buying from them. That works a thousand times better than "regulations." regulations only create higher prices, because then someone has to "regulate" those being "regulated." Stop buying from them, tell others their product is crap and why! 
I listen to what everyone here says, and if someone here says a product is crap, with sufficient ingredients as to why, adhesion failures, poor coverage, etc...you better bet your ass I'm not using it!
But, as for decks, they are such a pain, because most homeowners don't want to pay for prep, proper products, just a quick coat or two, that to me, I only do the decks for the homeowners who let me do what I do best: the job the right way!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Doing a big deck with Cali Storm soon. Love the stuff.


Would you believe I can't give that stuff away here in MANSFIELD,OHIO?
Cali gave me 28 quart samples in two colors and I can't get the painters to leave SW's teat long enough to pick some up. All I ever hear is painters around here bitching about the acrylic stains they have to use and they can't actually pick up a free alkyd s/t stain sample because if they like it they might have to pop themselves off that thing and buy from someone else. (GRAMMER NAZI'S AWAKE!) Pretty sad actually.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Would you believe I can't give that stuff away here in MANSFIELD,OHIO?
> Cali gave me 28 quart samples in two colors and I can't get the painters to leave SW's teat long enough to pick some up. All I ever hear is painters around here bitching about the acrylic stains they have to use and they can't actually pick up a free alkyd s/t stain sample because if they like it they might have to pop themselves off that thing and buy from someone else. (GRAMMER NAZI'S AWAKE!) Pretty sad actually.


I can never understand why people are unwilling to try something different. Every time I get a chance I try something new. Even if it is not better than what I am currently using, it will most likely be better than most HOers standard of good, which is usually a box store brand.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> Doing a big deck with Cali Storm soon. Love the stuff.


I've got 8 gallons of Cali 2010 satin white in my van now. California makes some great products and its a local company . Problem is no one carries it since BM stores were offered better prices on BM if that's all they sold ( or something like that ). My old BM store carried Cabots, P&L, California and BM. Now only BM.  Storm Stain has a great line as well they were way ahead of the curve with there deck and siding stains long ago. There old problem solver oil primer was :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Cali is my go to.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I've got 8 gallons of Cali 2010 satin white in my van now. California makes some great products and its a local company . Problem is no one carries it since BM stores were offered better prices on BM if that's all they sold ( or something like that ). My old BM store carried Cabots, P&L, California and BM. Now only BM.  Storm Stain has a great line as well they were way ahead of the curve with there deck and siding stains long ago. There old problem solver oil primer was :thumbsup::thumbsup:


The oil Troubleshooter primer is my number one seller. I sampled some 2010 on my eaves last summer. That stuff is awesome! Unfortunately I don't stock it because it's to expensive for people around here. They would rather pay to have their houses painted every 7-8 years then use something that would really last.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

People around here think I'm nuts for taking on the California brand. Until they try it! Almost every painter that has tried even one of their products typically switches to it. I've had a couple painters even start using the Propaint on re-paints because they prefer it over anything else they have tried, even Superpaint. If a painter does an "honest" assessment of the California products, they are equal or superior to anything in their price range.

The biggest issues I have is getting painters in North Central Ohio to try it in the first place, then it's getting them to do that "honest" assessment. Meaning not smearing it on so they can bash it and stay with SW. When I get a painter telling me that the Freshcoat exterior super hide white doesn't cover a light gray, I know better! It's pretty obvious they are smearing the crap out of it! I can get it to cover black in one coat.


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