# HVLP finish quality using Graco 9.5 on cabinets



## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Need some expertise here... I have been refinishing cabinets for close to 2 years now with promising results, but as with any craft, I've tried to learn something new from each kitchen job to improve my process. I recently invested in a Graco 9.5 Pro Contractor HVLP unit (fantastic rig by the way), and have been using it to spray the cabinet boxes/frames inside the home (I still use my Graco airless with a 310 FFLP tip to spray the doors offsite). Here is my question...I thoroughly clean/degrease all surfaces, then sand with 220 grit paper, then vacuum/tack cloth, and spray with 2 coats of SW Acrylic Alkyd primer, then a light hand sand, then spray 2 coats of SW Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd (hybrid) paint. The finish generally turns out looking glassy and smooth, but when I return 1-2 days later to mount the doors, the finish on the frames is SO prone to easily chipping/scratching, and it kills me to use a tiny brush to spot repair an otherwise smooth finish panel! I do thin the primer and paint to a 35-40 second viscosity (Ford #4 cup) and use the #3 cap/needle on the Graco 9.5. I know the finish hardens as it cures over several weeks, but am I doing something glaringly wrong here? I avoid solvent/oil-based finishes inside customer's homes (and because it's a pain to clean/discard the waste). Am I spraying too light of coats? Should I be using a different primer? Am I thinning the primer too much and should be using a larger tip? I tried the #5 needle before, but wasn't a fan of the texture/orange peel. Any feedback is really appreciated.


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## ThreeSistersPainting (Jan 7, 2017)

Your talking about two different systems of applying paint. HVLP vs. Airless, the amount of material transfer between those two is much different.

If your spraying your doors with an airless your generally applying more paint and if your spraying boxes with HVLP your generally applying less paint but a finer finish. I have switched to using a HVLP gun for all my cabinet work and I am putting down a minimum of 3 coats. I strip my cabinets down to wood before re-finishing so the first coat is more like a fog coat. It sounds like you may need to increase the amount of paint applied to the boxes through your hvlp or add a clear coat over everything to protect them better. Or use your airless to finish the boxes. 

Before I transfer doors and drawers fronts I wrap them in bubble wrap, that bubble wrap stays on until the door is hung then I pull it off. Its been a good system for myself and makes transfering the doors so much easier and keeps touch ups to a minimum.

*edit
If your not stripping the clear layer off before applying water based primer there may be a bonding issue.


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, my airless with the 310 FFLP tip has been great (albeit messy with excess paint and overspray), but the finish goes on thick/smooth and holds up nicely, especially when I let the doors sit on the dry rack for several days before returning them to the client’s home. 

Good feedback about spraying extra coats. I’ve been spraying between 2-3 coats to the cabinet frames with my HVLP, so it sounds like I need to be spraying heavier coats (without dripping!), and/or additional coats (upwards of 4). I wonder if I’m not waiting long enough to allow the paint to cure/harden before returning to mount the finished doors. 

I’ve heard good things about STIX INSL-X primer, so I may give that a go as well. For it to flow through my HVLP, I’d have to thin it a good bit I’d imagine. The problem I’ve seen is when the cabinet frames get nicked on install day, the original cabinet finish is revealed (meaning the primer and paint all chipped off together). I assumed the primer I’ve been using isn’t doing its job - or I’ve been rushing the paint on after waiting only an hour or two after the primer dries and is sanded.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Edinburgh - Primer may be part of your chipping problem. I use BIN shellac based pigmented almost exclusively. It is alcohol based but it dries very quickly. If you use HVLP have to turn it way down and use small tip to avoid overspray. You can apply by hand methods as well. It is the universal sealer it adheres extremely well dries fast and can topcoat with virtually anything in a few hrs. One of my tricks is to get enough of it on till you can sand smooth. BIN smells since it is alcohol based. This smell goes away in just a couple hours. You might consider a different topcoat as well. About two years ago I decided to try the waterbourne pigmented lacquers. SW makes Kem Aqua plus. These finishes are designed to run through HVLP type equipment and they dry very quickly. They have a bit of learning curve. Overspray will be minimal if you turn your air and material flow down. Can't put much down on vertical surfaces or it will run. In my opinion it took my cabinet finishes to the next level. Another product widely used is PPG Breakthrough. A lot of cabinet refinishers use it here and will probably weigh in on your post.


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Thank you so much for the insight. I will freely admit I’m paranoid about using anything solvent-based, especially inside a client’s home. Gas ranges with pilot lights, pets, children, you name it. My inexperience has kept me away from trying it, though it seems universally clear that oil-based finishes deliver by far the best outcome for cabinet refinishing. 

The Pro Classic hybrid has done me well on the doors with my airless, plus my local SW team is just stellar. 

Regarding the BIN shellac, I’ve seen an “Advanced”, synthetic waterborne formula of this. Worth trying?

SW comped me a gallon of the Kem Aqua plus undercoat and paint a few months ago. It dried pretty quickly and turned out decent, though I thought I read somewhere that it was meant for unfinished cabinets receiving their first coat of finish (like a factory job). The cabinets I do are already finished (either stained/poly or previously painted), so I assumed KA+ wasn’t a good fit for my purposes. 

The value prop of PPG breakthrough was too good not to try. I’ve given it a few uses (a piece of furniture and a small bathroom vanity job). For laughs, I tried using it without primer just to test its adhesion. I was amazed how well it bonded after just scrubbing it with TSP and wiping it down with a tack cloth. I couldn’t scratch it off the following morning with my fingernail. It needs to be seriously strained and well mixed. Perhaps just my luck, but each gallon I’ve tried has been full of chunks of goopy dried paint. My paper filter will show about a teaspoon of chunks after I pour about 32 ounces. Crazy. 

I’d love to get your thoughts. 

Thanks again.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

If you're going to Sherwin Williams to get your paint, ask them for a few wet mil thickness gauges and use them regularly. It takes all of the guesswork out of whether or not you're applying too heavy or too light. Although you generally won't see the thickness gauges on the shelves, most stores carry them and all stores can get them for you if they don't carry them. They are free too. Between the paint cans info & data sheets online, you'll be able to see exactly what thickness you should be applying. It boggles my mind how many painters have never used a WFT gauge.

If you're experiencing scratching of freshly painted cabs, it means you're probably handling them before they've cured enough. This could be from insufficient heat & air flow of cabs to facilitate a speedy cure. Could also be from applying too much product too quickly, thus slowing down the cure. You might consider switching to a product with earlier blocking times. PPG's Breathrough is great, but if you're sticking with SW, ask them about their Pro-Industrial Line, and they'll probably recommend their Multi-Surface Acrylic. The quicker the blocking time of a product, the easier to handle without the risk of damage due to uncured/soft paint.

Chipping is another story altogether and is usually indicative of bonding issues, which means having to reevaluate your finishing schedule, (although if you WERE applying too much product too quickly as stated above, it could possibly be culprit).


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Thanks so much. I will definitely ask for the wet mil thickness gauges. I never knew these existed, and it does sound like I’ll get some great value in using them. I’ll also bring up the SW Pro-Industrial line as well to investigate other primer options. 

I meant scratching more than chipping/flaking, but I’ll give an example of a recent dilemma that was set me back a day. I always pre-score tapelines when the painting is all done and it’s time to start removing my masking. On those areas where the cabinet frames meet a silicone seam (counters, etc), I recently pulled my tape off without pre-scoring and it took about a square inch of paint off with it. There’s nothing more frustrating than seeing a perfectly sprayed panel get ruined like that. While it was totally my fault, it made me ponder if I was using an inferior/incorrect primer or paint, or as you said I was just foolishly rushing the process and not giving the new finish enough time to cure.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Edinburgh:. I have not tried the synthetic shellac. Others on here have strongly indicated its not an acceptable substitute. I would also point out that alcohol does not flash as readily as lacquer thinner and the smell is gone rather quickly. My biggest problem is cleaning my gun after using it. It will adhere to most anything. Definitely a product to have in your bag of tricks but you still have some solvent based precautions. You are correct KA+ pigmented and the surfacer are designed to be used together on new wood to achieve the KCMA certification. KA+ pigmented can be used for refinishes after suitable surface preparation. I scrubb, abrade 220, and put on two coats of BIN (enough to sand smooth) then topcoat with KA+ 3 coats. Can bubble wrap, transport, and install next day with no blocking issues. I would use HVLP all the way with KA+. You can sand, wet sand, and or rub out blemishes fingerprints toolmarks and even orange peel. This is my experience not necessarily trying to sell you on it. We have several refinishers on here and we all have differences in our processes.


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

TPrice, awesome insight. That’s very encouraging to learn that KA+ pigmented can be used with BIN primer. I made a poor assumption that the surface and pigmented had to be used together exclusively. That’s fantastic that you get such quick turnaround using your method. I recall the KA+ being pretty thin out of the can. Do you thin yours down at all for your HVLP? What size needle/cap do you use? I really appreciate the information. This is such a great forum.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I use a graco edge II plus gun with #3 needle. This model has only 1 cap. Use on Stage II with air down a little on gun. Do not thin. May have to turn material flow down too. Just enough to get good aerosolization. To much air and you will get a lot of overspray and drying of finish before it hits surface. Put your doors on a turntable and you can get more finish on without running. Use the mil guage till you get the hang of it. Vertical surfaces are the toughest, runs. Use the Round spray pattern for corners and detail. Good ventilation speeds curing.


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Awesome. I went to my local SW store today and picked up a wet mil gauge tool. I will try it out on my next job! I also checked out their in-house pigmented shellac primer - just to feel out its consistency. Wow - I totally get why it needs no thinning for an HVLP. If it's anything like the BIN shellac primer, I'll enjoy using a quality material out of the can without thinning. I use the exact same gun as you - I love the artisan air valve. So far, I've not had to set the turbine past setting 4 (out of 10) and the air/material valves about halfway, even with the Pro Classic (thinned 10%). Do you use the #3 needle for the KA+ as well?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't know what solvent to product ratio you used to get a 40 second measure of viscosity, but the TDS suggests not thinning. And, at roughly 54% SBV, you're wanting to apply the material at a 4 mil WFT in order to achieve the recommended 1.6 mil DFT per coat.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

edinburgh1971 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yeah, my airless with the 310 FFLP tip has been great (albeit messy with excess paint and overspray), but the finish goes on thick/smooth and holds up nicely, especially when I let the doors sit on the dry rack for several days before returning them to the client’s home.
> 
> Good feedback about spraying extra coats. I’ve been spraying between 2-3 coats to the cabinet frames with my HVLP, so it sounds like I need to be spraying heavier coats (without dripping!), and/or additional coats (upwards of 4). I wonder if I’m not waiting long enough to allow the paint to cure/harden before returning to mount the finished doors.
> 
> I’ve heard good things about STIX INSL-X primer, so I may give that a go as well. For it to flow through my HVLP, I’d have to thin it a good bit I’d imagine. The problem I’ve seen is when the cabinet frames get nicked on install day, the original cabinet finish is revealed (meaning the primer and paint all chipped off together). I assumed the primer I’ve been using isn’t doing its job - or I’ve been rushing the paint on after waiting only an hour or two after the primer dries and is sanded.


I use the INSLX Stix over varnished doors with great results. Not sure if it can be sprayed with hvlp. Im still using my Graco airless. I'm also using BM Advance for topcoat with fantastic results. Both waterborne products. .I generally just brush and roll my boxes and spray all the doors at shop.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Edinburgh:. Yes I use #3 tip all the way primer and KA+. The recommended tip size for KA+ is 0.055-0.070 per PDS. The #3 Graco is 0.051 and the #4 is 0.071. I think you may have same gun as I do Graco Edge I Plus. The SW equivalent for BIN is fine I use it more often than BIN. You will have to get denatured alcohol for cleaning your gun after using BIN. Water will clean up the KA+ but a little butylcellusolve will help clean gun. Your SW dealer will have this. Read the PDS for KA+ pigmented it has a lot of good info in it.


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## Jimithing616 (Mar 18, 2018)

edinburgh1971 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yeah, my airless with the 310 FFLP tip has been great (albeit messy with excess paint and overspray), but the finish goes on thick/smooth and holds up nicely, especially when I let the doors sit on the dry rack for several days before returning them to the client’s home.
> 
> Good feedback about spraying extra coats. I’ve been spraying between 2-3 coats to the cabinet frames with my HVLP, so it sounds like I need to be spraying heavier coats (without dripping!), and/or additional coats (upwards of 4). I wonder if I’m not waiting long enough to allow the paint to cure/harden before returning to mount the finished doors.
> 
> I’ve heard good things about STIX INSL-X primer, so I may give that a go as well. For it to flow through my HVLP, I’d have to thin it a good bit I’d imagine. The problem I’ve seen is when the cabinet frames get nicked on install day, the original cabinet finish is revealed (meaning the primer and paint all chipped off together). I assumed the primer I’ve been using isn’t doing its job - or I’ve been rushing the paint on after waiting only an hour or two after the primer dries and is sanded.


From all my research and speaking to every paint/product and HVLP manufacturer rep in my area and at all the shows.... the one thing I keep hearing is when using water based or waterbourne primers like you’re using you need to wait at least 4 hours before top coating

Apparently if you don’t, exactly what you have happening, happens, every time.

The water based primers need to fully evaporate whatever (can’t recall all the mumbo jumbo) but take away is...

Oil primer. 45 mins to hour is ok. Not oil, wait 4 hours if not the next day and they will then, and only then, affix themselves to cabinets like an oil, or as close to it as they possibly can 

Again, no expert here, just a guy who has spent a few months compiling info from experts because Im starting to finally touch cabinet jobs, and I won’t do that until I can learn everything I can and figure out the very best system that exists... for me. For my customer. And for my sanity, time and reputation too


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I’ve never used SW’s Acrylic Alkyd primer, but it sounds like it’s the weak link in your process based on your issues when you’ve pulled tape. It’s possible that you didn’t let it cure long enough, or that thinning has effected the adhesion or that it’s not the right product for this application. 

If you want to stick with Waterbased primers I’d recommend Insl-X Stix or SW Extreme Bond (since you like SW). I’ve had excellent results with Stix whenever I’ve used it, but I haven’t tried Extreme Bond.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gregplus (Jun 11, 2013)

*hi*

I used SW’s Acrylic Alkyd if waterbased one is the one you talking about? (red can) and was not happy, it does not stick well and does not block tannin well. 

BIN is unbeatable. 

SHER-WOOD came up with new waterbase primer that is supposed to be replacement for BIN?? and is low VOC and low odor if I remember correctly, fast drying and can be used as undercoated for Kem Aqua. It is also sendable within 60 minutes.

It is SHER-WOOD 5421W Universal Primer, part number: E64W521

I just ordered 2 gallons to test it for repaints cabinets.

TDS: 
https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=E64W521


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

gregplus said:


> I used SW’s Acrylic Alkyd if waterbased one is the one you talking about? (red can) and was not happy, it does not stick well and does not block tannin well.
> 
> BIN is unbeatable.
> 
> ...


I wonder how good it is as an actual bonding primer over old lacquer and clear polyurethane coatings? It sounds promising if true. If it powders up when sanding they may have a winner.:vs_clap:


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

I'll chip in. 

The 220 in my estimation is too fine a grit. You need to be closer to 120 or 150 grit. 

My feeling is with 220 you aren't profiling the surface enough. Paint, unlike stains have a higher solid content, so unless you go really stupid with the sanding, chances are you won't see scratches. Especially if you plan to prime + 2 coat it, I just don't see the scratches coming through. I'd say go 120 and see how it works. 

Personally I use the medium sanding sponges for drywall. They are fairly rough, last longer, cost less than other sanding sponges made for wood. They work good to rough up sealer coats on doors and even dull out paint, which is what you need to adhere stuff.

Scuff sand, extreme bonding primer, then 2 coats of finish paint = done. 

Another paint to give a shot at is the Waterborn Alkyd Urethane Enamel from Sherwin. Just used it on a job recently and they came out pretty good. Stuff sticks pretty good and dries up fairly strong.


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## gregplus (Jun 11, 2013)

woodcoyote said:


> I'll chip in.
> 
> The 220 in my estimation is too fine a grit. You need to be closer to 120 or 150 grit.
> 
> ...


Does Waterborn Alkyd Urethane Enamel needs primer or can go directly?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

gregplus said:


> Does Waterborn Alkyd Urethane Enamel needs primer or can go directly?


Theoretically, but I wouldn't trust it. Priming always makes me sleep better at night..


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

I have found waterborne urethane to be horrible and brittle and chalky. 

I've also found cabinet coat to be far superior to break through both of those are an acrylic base.

I'm going to try stix primer over my next polyurethane / varnish recode gig with no scuffing.

Ive been getting perfect finishes with my airless on wood work and acrylic based paint. Super tuff finish.


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## edinburgh1971 (Feb 4, 2018)

Great advice... thanks to all for weighing in. You were correct - the SW Acrylic Alkyd primer was in fact my weak link, both from a material and wait time perspective. I have since switched over to using STIX INSL-X for the frames and doors/drawers offsite (all through the Graco 9.5), and MAN what a difference it has made. I also wait 24 hours for the primer to set up and fully harden. This may be overkill, but it sands like confectioners sugar, and the top coat goes on and dries like butter. The STIX is pretty thin out of the can, but I still dilute it with no more than 5% purified water (rendering a 30 second flow-through on a Ford #4 cup). I use a #3 needle and keep the turbine pressure low and the material in the middle range.

I have tried the SW Emerald Urethane Enamel a few times (dark pigment colors as SW Pro Classic doesn't come in an Ultra Deep base). It's VERY thick out the can and needed a good bit of thinning to get the proper flow I wanted. That said, the finish is great, and my customers are pleased with the outcome. I still stick to PC waterbased acrylic alkyd for my lighter colors. The recoat times of 4 hours allows me to get 2-3 quality coats on in one day. I always advise my clients to allow several weeks of cure time before going aggressive with cleaning the new surfaces, and so far so good. 

I've been advised on many occasions to try the BIN Shellac primer, but I am still apprehensive for 2 reasons: 1) the awful smell and flammable properties make me nervous spraying it inside anyone's home, and 2) the cleaning process sounds like a train wreck to me. Cleaning with soap and water is a process I can do worry-free. I have heard nothing but good things about its adhesion, blocking and dry times. One of these days I might man up and try it.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Cleanup of bin in a cup gun is easy (assuming you are running a 3m pps cup sustem or equivalent). 

I run some ammonia through the gun and get 95% of it. Denatured alcohol after that. At least with my titan elite gun it's an easy cleanup. 

It's probably one of the few products though I might not leave loaded between coats tho unless you clean the tip real well. The kem aqua plus surfacer is another.

Acrylic paints don't bother me since the discovery of what alcohol does to them regardless of their level of dryness. 

Don't fear the bin.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

[MENTION=19102]sayn3ver - Thanks for that ammonia tip for cleaning spray gun after using BIN. I will try that next round.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your challenges @edinburgh1971. While I've never used that primer, I suspect that is culprit. I also haven't heard of many using the proclassic hybrid on cabinet work. I do have a friend who is satisfied with the proclassic oil for that. 

Besides product troubles, the dry time thing is big in my book. I don't only do cabinets...yet...and I like to do my jobs all in one shot, not squeezing other jobs in on days for stuff to cure. the work flow gets scattered.

The bubble wrap ideas are also pretty cool. I did that once, but didn't like the price and waste. I haven't had any problems with rosin paper or whatever brown floor paper I have around when handling with care. I stick with the BIN and breakthrough mostly because of availability and the results. 

@sayn3er I've tried soaking my gun in DN Alcohol after getting breakthrough gunk stuck on it....no luck with getting it off. Is it just me? 
Simple green seems to do wonders for me on that clean up.


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