# Gel Stain Alternative



## ddelaney (Aug 7, 2013)

Have a customer that wants a darker stain on stairway railing and bannister. Doesn't want to pay to have it sanded and restained. I have used gel stain in the past, but I don't think it holds up too well. Anyone use any alternatives? 
They have the typical golden oak stain color and are wanting it much darker. Thanks in advance


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Poly Shades is easiest alternative i know short of toning yourself. I didnt know putting gel stain over a clear was ever an option.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ddelaney said:


> Have a customer that wants a darker stain on stairway railing and bannister. Doesn't want to pay to have it sanded and restained. I have used gel stain in the past, but I don't think it holds up too well. Anyone use any alternatives?
> They have the typical golden oak stain color and are wanting it much darker. Thanks in advance


That's where I would start in order to do a long lasting job specially on a stairway.

Some jobs are not worth doing.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

I agree with what's been said already...


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## BearHM11 (Jan 29, 2016)

ddelaney said:


> Have a customer that wants a darker stain on stairway railing and bannister. Doesn't want to pay to have it sanded and restained. I have used gel stain in the past, but I don't think it holds up too well. Anyone use any alternatives?
> They have the typical golden oak stain color and are wanting it much darker. Thanks in advance


If you're not set up to mix and spray toners, then you would be good to use a gel stain. I would recommend General Finishes, as I've always had good results with them. Poly shades would work as well, just never have used it. 
With that drastic of a color change, you will probably need 3 or more coats of whatever product you choose.


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## BearHM11 (Jan 29, 2016)

If you do decide to take the job, would recommend doing a sample first and having the HO sign off on it


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## Allsurface (Aug 17, 2014)

General finishes gel stain is nice. And can be topcoat end with just about anything.
Probably done in two coats. 
There are YouTube videos to see it being applied.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Im all about the bonding tenacity of the material. Gelstain over a clear sounds like a terrible idea to me. I think the chemical bond of a like clear to clear is ideal way to go. If handrail was finisjed in poly, poly shades is good enough. I cant stand behind a gel stain with no mechanical bond to a clear as being a good option. 

Yes you can topcoat with a clear, but your only as strong as your substrate and gel over a clear coat isnt gonna hold out IMHO.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I'd be a little confused as to why they called a professional if they're not willing to have it done professionally. They don't wanna pay to have it sanded? I bet they won't wanna pay for your return trip after it fails either. 

Very few finishes can be coated over without sanding first. You need to figure out what the existing finish is first, then come up with a game plan. If it's a lacquer, you could give it a solvent wipe with lacquer thinner and spray a toned lacquer. If it's a shellac, wipe it down first with DNA, then a toned shellac, which can be brushed, wiped or sprayed. 

If it's anything other than lacquer or shellac, educate them as to why the sanding is necessary, unless they're willing to concede to premature failure without seeking recourse.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

If they're not willing to pay to sand, I doubt they want anything sprayed.
OP, I'd just pass on the job if I was you. Sometimes it's not worth working with this kind of home owners unless they let you educate them on the best approach for long term durability.


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## canopainting (Feb 12, 2013)

when you said sanded and restain do you mean stripped and re-stained? just make it clean and dry and I'll put your gel stain on and then your clearcoat.


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## BearHM11 (Jan 29, 2016)

Paradigmzz said:


> Im all about the bonding tenacity of the material. Gelstain over a clear sounds like a terrible idea to me. I think the chemical bond of a like clear to clear is ideal way to go. If handrail was finisjed in poly, poly shades is good enough. I cant stand behind a gel stain with no mechanical bond to a clear as being a good option.
> 
> Yes you can topcoat with a clear, but your only as strong as your substrate and gel over a clear coat isnt gonna hold out IMHO.


Absolutely right:thumbsup:. I may have made the false assumption that the OP meant the HO didn't want it sanded all the way down to raw and restained. 
If they want absolutely no sanding done at all, they have unrealistic expectations and it's time to move on. Or help try to bring them back to reality with a little painting 101 education.


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## ddelaney (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm sorry. Should have been clearer. They are not thrilled about the potential cost of completely sanding it down to bare wood. Not opposed to any scuff sanding or removing clear coat.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Clear impregnates grain. Without full strip i wouldnt gel stain. POLYSHADES or toning a brushable lacquer is what i would do. Clean surface and go to town.


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

i just did this for some 1 actually. They had light golden oak stairs. They wanted it a coffee color. I have a pick some where let me find it. 

You can see top is much darker than the bottom. Also far right post i did not to the top flat yet so you can see the difference. The product i used is attacked as well.


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## ddelaney (Aug 7, 2013)

Varnish? What did you do for prep work? Brush on a poly afterwards?


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Here's what I'd do. Sand to remove clear coat only, spray a vinyl sealer , use the gel stain as a glaze until you get to your desired darkness then topcoat .

It's basically same thing as staining in between a wash coat and a sealer.


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## AlphaWolf (Nov 23, 2014)

ddelaney said:


> Varnish? What did you do for prep work? Brush on a poly afterwards?


No just use this product. I tried sanding the clear than using this and i used it with out sanding, just to test. Less than say 30-45 min you will never scratch it off ever. Even if you did not sand. Dries fast goes very hard. You can use it as a clear coat. As really thats all it is. It just accepts tints. Some come pretinted. The one i use was pretinted in coffee.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

ddelaney said:


> Have a customer that wants a darker stain on stairway railing and bannister. Doesn't want to pay to have it sanded and restained. I have used gel stain in the past, but I don't think it holds up too well. Anyone use any alternatives?
> They have the typical golden oak stain color and are wanting it much darker. Thanks in advance



Old Masters Gel Stain is wicked product....sand/scuff remove dust and start brushing it on...2 coats should be all kinds for changing color to dark . Allow lots of time between coats for drying . Use Oil or Poly over the top to finish . Works like a charm . Find a piece of Oak previously stained and varnished and try it if you are not sure . Give it a day to dry and try and scratch it off . Awesome product . Do that test...you will know ! :thumbsup:


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

AlphaWolf said:


> No just use this product. I tried sanding the clear than using this and i used it with out sanding, just to test. Less than say 30-45 min you will never scratch it off ever. Even if you did not sand. Dries fast goes very hard. You can use it as a clear coat. As really thats all it is. It just accepts tints. Some come pretinted. The one i use was pretinted in coffee.



When I was researching this for a customer I read on this product...have not noticed it on store shelves but the reports on it seem good . I hope to try it some day . I ended up using the Old Masters Gel....also very good product .


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

One caution about the Old Masters gel stain. It's really nice stuff but it's pretty hot solventwise. I've experienced crazing and wrinkling when applying it over certain oil-based polys.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Thanks for the heads up...have not run across that yet . Good to know...always better to do an inconspicuous test spot and be sure . 


Safe painting > safe sex .


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

After I had that happen I switched to Woodkote's Jel'd stains which can safely be applied over long-oil varnishes. I always top gel stains with a quality poly, but for interior toning I found a great quick-dry tintable oil varnish that is rugged and feels like lacquer made by Amteco. I have to go to a special store to get it but it's worth it for high-end work like toning wood.


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