# Paint Fail (pics)



## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I think this home was painted while it was still to cold outside. I peeled of a peace and it seemed to have multiple coats from previous paint jobs. HO says the last people who worked on it put some solid stain on it. I'm not sure what it is. What I'm wondering is if I should use a solid stain or paint it. Im going to do some investigating( check the basement to see what was used) 

Either way its going to get prepped right. Remove all loose paint, sand, etc.. 
it has bad sanding marks from the disk sander and they didn't bother to feather it out. 

I uploaded some pictures to give you guys an idea.

I would like some input on your suggestions and how you would go about it.
Paint or Stain.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That does not look like stain to me, I would paint it. I am not sure I would blame the last paint job though, since multiple layers are peeling and peeling has obviously been an issue with the house before.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

Her last paint job is no more than 4-5 years old. I think even if it was a solid stain, I was planning to giving the entire house a coat of primer( not sure if spot priming would be enough) then give it two coats of paint.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Do you have a moisture meter? Is it Cedar?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gotdibz,

Red or white cedar shingles ? (looks like red to me)

How close to the Sound (I see you're in CT)

Oil or latex prior?

We had perpetual probs w/ red cedar and oil, and even ten miles from the water. Although I am sure others could tell me (and you) why, we always figure it was the moisture and high tanin content of the red cedar.

You are going to have some SERIOUS stripping to do, because what is not peeling now, is about to. Your new fresh beautiful coat ain't gonna be lasting any longer than the old fatigued paint that you apply the new upon.

We started shying away from red cedar knowing what a can of worms it was going to be. 

If you get down to raw wood, I'd use 100% acrylic stain, semi if possible. Allows moisture to escape


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

just looking at the pix more closely.

Last prep was with some kind of disc sander. And although I can not discern the type of paint, it was sprayed with no back brushing.

House has moisture problems as evidenced by the spotty mildew on the shady side. Bet there are a lot of oak trees near by, what's called English Oaks (huge acorns).

House like that should never have been painted, that's what cedar shingles are meant for - to withstand New England seaside weather. 

Run.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I would have loved to strip the entire thing ( she wont pay for that kinda job) its not an option. 

The top layer is latex( I cant speak for what's underneath) 

sorry I don't own a moisture meter ( I should) 


Better picture of the exposed Shingle


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Even here they say that rough side in cedar is guaranteed to peel at some point in the future. The reps seem to think the rough side in acts like a sponge and sucks moisture in and it tries to pass through the outside. If the back side is not primed, even worse.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

daArch said:


> just looking at the pix more closely.
> 
> Last prep was with some kind of disc sander. And although I can not discern the type of paint, it was sprayed with no back brushing.
> 
> ...


yes they did allot of disk sanding and didn't bother to feather out the grinding marks. 

LOTS! of trees all around.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Scars left from previous Painters disc sander indicate it was taken to bare wood. These areas appear tight adhering and stable. Significant film build over time the original bond has lost it's viability and elasticity. Multiple layers of paint no longer allow house to breathe. Couple added weight and stress of multiple coats, moisture, and disparities in flexibility between systems, the coating can no longer adhere. It is time to strip to bare wood, prime and two finish. How much ice damming occured this winter? Check moisture content of all areas. Cedar/redwood will stay acclimated and stable at between 6-10%. If at 15 or above, wood is wet. Take a shake off and check to see if insulation is wet. Use sealant around windows, not cheap caulk. A micrometer will measure the thickness of the chips and indicate how many coats of paint are on the surface. Budget will indicate if a full strip is in order, or just scrape, spot prime and finish. More paint added to a failing surface will only create more stress and failure and stress those areas that are still bonding.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

This house has got trapped moisture problems and the paint is too thick to allow it to breath at all. Habitual from the looks of the past sanding scars. It is most likely not something you are going to "fix" with paint at this point. Be careful with any sort of warranty on this project Gotdbiz.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Looks to me like the paint is just floating over the substrate, and i'll bet it'll just come off in sheets. Also looks like it was never primed. Can't say for sure what it was painted with to begin with but i've never seen solid stain peel like that so....

Not sure what I would do in that situation. If your client isn't willing to pay for it to be stripped then i'd be wording any warranty very carefully...


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

Yeah you are in trouble with that. I'd say the moisture is pushing the paint clean off and no matter what you do you will have trouble in the future. Expensive paint over cheap paint with moisture problems will never work. 

As mentioned above, these shingles should never have being painted but stained. Offer no guarantees.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanx for the helpful replies 

Im going to have a talk with the home owner about her options.

I will let her know that the only way to actually fix this problem would be to completely strip it and bring it back to bare wood. 

Anything else I wont guarantee. who knows how long it can last before it starts to do the same thing.

If after all this talk she still wont budge. then I'll give her the next option

scrape, sand, spot prime, and finish


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gotdibz,


(oops this was started before you wrote yours, then I got three phone calls before I finished)


got a suggestion. Tell the customer that you've consulted with over a dozen experienced painters from around the country and the consensus is that unless the old paint is COMPLETELY stripped, siding and roof checked for leaks, shingles allowed to dry thoroughly, superb and thorough sanding and caulking done, and the shingles coated with absolutely the correct coatings, then they will have continual 5 year repaints. 

And tell them that at least one old timer suggests that those type of shingles should never be painted anyway. 

Inform them that IF they were to remove the shingles and replace them with NEW red cedar shingles and NOT paint them, they can expect a 60 year life span. And if they replace them with white cedar shingles, they can expect a 30 - 40 year life span (uncoated) 

Now, if they wanted PAINT, remove and install SIDING.

Otherwise, you would be willing NOT to waste their money and give them the same level of job they got 5 - 6 years ago with NO guarantee of lasting even one year. 

They may be insulted by you implying that they are cheap bustards that messed up their house by hiring College Pro, but by being honest and laying it out for them, no one is getting screwed


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

CliffK said:


> This house has got trapped moisture problems and the paint is too thick to allow it to breath at all. Habitual from the looks of the past sanding scars. It is most likely not something you are going to "fix" with paint at this point. Be careful with any sort of warranty on this project Gotdbiz.


I agree with cliff, and someone else mentioned, that's failing from behind, not the front, it's not a primer or a prep issue. That's either moisture transferring through the house or the unprimed rough back is wicking it and the sun is pulling it out the front. You got a real problem on your hands. Are the eaves properly ventilated? Are there ridge vents or any other type of vents exhausting the attic? The house may not be breathing properly and not able to adequately handle the moisture it otherwise would be able to if properly ventilated. Here's a bit of an explanation on home ventilation, with a link to further info.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

That customer is going to keep throwing good money after bad. That has to be taken off. I'd run from anything less.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Time for vinyl.

The siding isnt even nailed correctly. What a mess.


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

I noticed, since people are jumping on the siding install, the keys aren't staggered properly. They have butts sitting right on top of butts. I'm betting there's no barrier back there either. I also notice the "floating" that someone else mentioned, looks like most of the finish is just hanging on the house. Run.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I really appreciate all the input from everyone. Thank you. 

This House really needs to breathe, its been holding its breath to long.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

Looks like to me that there was possibly way too much material sprayed on these shakes....

if it were my job and I am only guessing thru photos. 

I would 

1. identify the wood(most likely cedar)
2. get clear with what the homeowner WANTS and WANTS to spend.(my best guess is that they are NOT going to spend the money for new shakes) but you would only need to ask without assuming anything.
3. be clear in writting what you intend to do to fix or eliminate some of the problems occuring.
4. I would use oil base(YUCK after my scraping or sanding scraping, wire brush detailing.....even though I hate it....
and top coat 2X with appropriate exterior latex paint.


of coarse, there are more than 4 steps-these are just my immediate thoughts.

I would also spray and weenie roll it in...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Time for vinyl.
> 
> The siding isnt even nailed correctly. What a mess.


That was going to be my first suggestion, but I didnt want to be a dick...Thanks Chris :thumbsup:


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

I have a job that is vaguely similar to this. Shingle house that the home owners have repainted themselves several times only to have paint fail in certain areas. They are about 5km from water also.

My accepted proposal indicates that I will scrape and sand all failing paint, and scuff sand areas that are currently not failing just to make sure. Then I will spray an alkyd primer over the whole house, and finish up with two coats of a good quality exterior latex.

For reference, the paint failing is like 60% less bad that those pics.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

It's obvious that a ton of work has been done to this wood.

There are a lot of nails, showing that the curling was nailed down before. Also, the size of the pieces (width) seem to indicate that the place was very dry in order to do all that splitting.

My guess is that once all the carpentry work was done, the paint was sprayed on (never spray that stuff) and the coatings just formed a blanket that is attached better to itself than the wood...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Dunbar,

Why alkyd primer? IMO, you'd want something that is known for its breath-ability, like acrylic.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree with the old fella. :jester:

I always spray and back brush a coat of acrylic stain first. Then I come back with oil and only spot prime the knots and tannin bleed. Hit the spot prime places with a finish coat, and when it dries apply the final coat of acrylic stain.

Years ago we would dip the shakes in oil primer, and a finish coat before installation. It was standard practice, and unfortunately it turned out to cause major problems down the road because of how rigid oil is.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

daArch said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> Why alkyd primer? IMO, you'd want something that is known for its breath-ability, like acrylic.



Because the SW sales rep recommended such, however If you are advising something else I will look into it for sure!!! thanks a lot


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

daArch said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> Why alkyd primer? IMO, you'd want something that is known for its breath-ability, like acrylic.


Alkyd primers take longer to dry, the longer the dry, the deeper the penetration. In hot weather, latex primers, espcially the quick drys, may dry too quicly for proper penetration to occur.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I hate Cedar siding, if it's on my house, I love it when its on someone else's. Its like they sided their home with $100 bills. 

I think anything other than a complete strip will just be a band-aid fix, hell, even a complete strip is still a crapshoot with cedar. If you were to completely strip it, Id go with Sikkens Rubbol Siding Finish and skip priming it. Start with a pisscoat of the Sikkens, maybe cut 10-15% with water. Then a second coat full strength. The Sikkens is microporous allowing moisture to pass through the finish, so it should resist peeling better than anything else. Not saying that it wont peel, if enough moisture gets trapped, its gonna pop the finish off.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

jsheridan said:


> Alkyd primers take longer to dry, the longer the dry, the deeper the penetration. In hot weather, latex primers, espcially the quick drys, may dry too quicly for proper penetration to occur.


Like everyone said best option would be to strip.

HO has to decide what it is that they want. 

I might end up just priming it and painting it.

Im debating on using an oil primer (penetration) or Exterior acrylic latex (breathe-ability)

Edit

The truth is which ever I choose the house wont have much breathe-ability or penetration since it has so many coats on it already.

I think im going to spot prime barewood with oil primer 
then go over entire thing with a 100% acriylic primer like BM freshstart
and then two finish coats.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Gotdibz said:


> Like everyone said best option would be to strip.
> 
> HO has to decide what it is that they want.
> 
> ...



Dont waste your time or money re-priming the whole thing. Scrape, sand, spot prime, and paint.....Band-aid fix.


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## Painterguy20years (Mar 30, 2011)

This is a tuffy. If there is no moisture barrier, and the coatings are peeling to the wood substrate... it is hard to guarantee anything. In the past, I let the customer know the alternatives from best to touch up every year. I let them decide.

I always propose the best and then work down from there. try not to pigeonhole the customer. Just when you think it is hopeless....they sign up for the full strip and paint. NICE.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I know I posted something here about what I would do...and I don't see the post???????????

I too agree that it looks like it was never primed or never primed properly....and looks like too much paint was sprayed on.....

where is my post?


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

sagebrush123 said:


> I know I posted something here about what I would do...and I don't see the post???????????
> 
> I too agree that it looks like it was never primed or never primed properly....and looks like too much paint was sprayed on.....
> 
> where is my post?


At the top of the page, #21. Your fired.:blink:


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## dmpri (Dec 29, 2010)

Gotdibz said:


> I think this home was painted while it was still to cold outside. I peeled of a peace and it seemed to have multiple coats from previous paint jobs. HO says the last people who worked on it put some solid stain on it. I'm not sure what it is. What I'm wondering is if I should use a solid stain or paint it. Im going to do some investigating( check the basement to see what was used)
> 
> Either way its going to get prepped right. Remove all loose paint, sand, etc..
> it has bad sanding marks from the disk sander and they didn't bother to feather it out.
> ...




How about this scenario? These were weathered shingles that were never treated for awhile..they tend to cup away from the building. When that happens, customers want them nailed down. When you nail them down, it causes them to split. (which might explain the excessive nails and split shingles) the other part of the problem may be when shingles are left to weather for a long time, the outer layer is dead wood fiber. When you try and paint/stain that, the wood delaminates peeling off the paint/primer/whatever as well as the layer of dead wood fiber. I would examine the back of a piece of chipped/flaking paint to see what it reveals and ask about the coating history of the house if they know..? Most likely when you look at the back of the paint chip, you will feel rough wood on the back of the chip. This will indicate delamination (dead wood fiber). Interested to see if this is the fix as I found out the hard way....


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

dmpri said:


> the other part of the problem may be when shingles are left to weather for a long time, the outer layer is dead wood fiber. When you try and paint/stain that, the wood delaminates peeling off the paint/primer/whatever as well as the layer of dead wood fiber. I would examine the back of a piece of chipped/flaking paint to see what it reveals and ask about the coating history of the house if they know..? Most likely when you look at the back of the paint chip, you will feel rough wood on the back of the chip. This will indicate delamination (dead wood fiber). Interested to see if this is the fix as I found out the hard way....


That is also a major contributor to failure of decking stain. Guys are putting solid deck stain over dead wood and it peels. Then they blame the stain. Power washing just doesn't cut it in removing it.


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