# Employer Obligation



## Pretty Handy Mandi

Is an employer obligated to inform employees that they are working with lead paint? Recourse?


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## CApainter

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Is an employer obligated to inform employees that they are working with lead paint? Recourse?


Yes. But Gough can explain why better then me.


OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration)


Until an employer performs an employee-exposure assessment and determines the magnitude of the exposures actually occurring during the lead-related activity, the employer must assume that employees performing that task are exposed to the lead concentrations indicated in Appendix V:3-1. For all three groups of tasks, employers are required to provide respiratory protection appropriate to the task's presumed exposure level, protective work clothing and equipment, change areas, hand-washing facilities, training, and the initial medical surveillance prescribed by paragraph (d)(2)(v) of the standard (29 CFR 1926.62). The only difference in the provisions applying to the three categories of tasks is the degree of respiratory protection required.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

Also, I asked if the wood that needed sanding, refinished, painted , etc. It is 100 year old building. 

I asked if lead paint had been used and was told no. By the employer.


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## ewingpainting.net

What do you tell them when you hand them the body suits? Or prepping the work zone with caution signs all over the place? I think their gonna find out anyway, lol


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## Gough

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Is an employer obligated to inform employees that they are working with lead paint? Recourse?












Recourse? Every one that I can think of involves finding another employer, either now or later.


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## Oden

Recourse for what? Would be my question. Did someone get long term exposure unbeknownst to them and have lead poisoning and are disabled. Or did they paint a house that took two days two years ago? Recourse for what?

No harm. No foul.


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## Gough

I'd like to hear a little more from PHM about the details. If the employees were disturbing the paint, then I'd have some serious issues with the employer. From how she phrased her posts, I'm assuming that this is directed at another employer.


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## Oden

Gough said:


> I'd like to hear a little more from PHM about the details. If the employees were disturbing the paint, then I'd have some serious issues with the employer. From how she phrased her posts, I'm assuming that this is directed at another employer.


Just a painter workin with the tools here.
Beleive it or not we regulate our own. As best we can.
No harm. No foul. Move along.


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## slinger58

Oden said:


> Recourse for what? Would be my question. Did someone get long term exposure unbeknownst to them and have lead poisoning and are disabled. Or did they paint a house that took two days two years ago? Recourse for what?
> 
> No harm. No foul.


The asbestos litigation over the past several decades has shown that no harm needs to be proven to collect damages. You just have to prove _exposure_ to possible harm. 

Now with this post I'm not taking a position one way or the other on the issue.

What I will say is that one certain group of "professionals" make out like bandits in all these cases.:yes:


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## Gough

Oden said:


> Just a painter workin with the tools here.
> Beleive it or not we regulate our own. As best we can.
> No harm. No foul. Move along.


As I wrote above, I'd like to see a little more information before declaring "no harm", but that may be the case.


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## CApainter

It's really more about contractor liability from exposing a worker to a known hazard, without offering safe guards, rather then assuming "no harm no foul" because the worker didn't immediately go into a lead induced epileptic fit. And unfortunately, the competitive nature of private industry painters enables circumvention of safe work practices if the company culture doesn't enforce it. Among the rank and file of painters not protected by collective bargaining, or conscientious contractors, its still survival of the strongest rather then the smartest.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

Sorry for the long wait for a response. ..

I had been hired by a window restoration company to paint the window sashes. On the first day I asked the owner of the window company it lead paint had been used. I was told no, that they were already converted to non lead paint....

I was told to set my work area up right next to the person who was scrapping and sanding the paint off the windows. There was lots of dust and I have been very itchy and not feeling well lately. 
I have been on the job for going on 4 weeks.

What did I mean by recourse? Well I don't know. .. I don't like being lied to. And ugh, I think the chit is pretty nasty.

Well today, OSHA showed up. They were there for 3 violations, 1. Electrical cords laying in standing water, 2. Unsafe saws, 3. Lead paint dust exposure. (Surprise!) 


The owner told everyone to scatter, and I'm not waiting around for them to leave. I'm going home. Happening right now.









I am working at the saw horses. The scrapping of dust happening not far from me.











Windows before











Windows after












The building












The view. Hey, at least the view is nice


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## CApainter

Wow PHM!

Sounds like a real sweat shop. If you think you are not feeling well due to lead poisoning, It may be wise to get a blood test. The doctors will tell you what the safe levels are. If you're not insured, this shouldn't be too expensive.


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## Gough

PHM, thanks for the follow up. That's certainly a CS move by the window company.


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## ewingpainting.net

Are you working as a sub or employee?


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## daArch

Mandi,

I agree about getting tested ASAP.

And if you are at all elevated, seek recourse. It sounds like the owners are less than scrupulous.


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## Oden

Ironic. I'm just a painter and I am not on her side a little bit
If you don't want to work there. You move on.
Unbeleivable to me that contractors are feeding into this crap on here.


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## ewingpainting.net

Oden said:


> Ironic. I'm just a painter and I am not on her side a little bit
> If you don't want to work there. You move on.
> Unbeleivable to me that contractors are feeding into this crap on here.


Ironically I agree, hit the road if your the employee. If your a sub you should know better


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## CApainter

Oden said:


> Ironic. I'm just a painter and I am not on her side a little bit
> If you don't want to work there. You move on.
> Unbeleivable to me that contractors are feeding into this crap on here.


I'm 100% on PHM's side. She's doing what she can to hustle up work. It's not her fault some A holes are exploiting her by presenting work opportunities that are deceptively unsafe. I think she should pursue some recourse even if it means paying just her hospital expenses for the blood work.

Aren't we all in solidarity when it comes to exposing ignorant and irresponsible painting contractors who don't consider the human factor of their businesses? Workers have rights. And if it means slapping the paddle of legislative requirements up side their ignorant heads, so be it.


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## daArch

Oden, 

I would agree with your stance IF the exposure to lead were disclosed to Mandi, but according to her words,

" On the first day I asked the owner of the window company it lead paint had been used. I was told no, that they were already converted to non lead paint...."

That falls under my guidelines of unscrupulous. Sure, they had converted to REPAINTING with lead free products, but that does not answer her question 100% honsetly


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## Stretch67

Everyone is jumping to conclusions until someone confirms that lead exists. PHM could've done her own lead test b4 committing to work there, and most likely should have. Interesting that Osha showed up now after how long? 

K im all for being a responsible contractor. But you guys/gals act like its agent orange or vx gas or something. Seriously, guess how many ppm of lead there is coming outta every drinking fountain/shower/toilet/garden hose/laundry machine that is supplied by a water tower over 30 years old. Every older university I have been to seems like half the plumbing pipe are still lead laden. Get a grip.


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## Oden

O.K
Knowing what I know from the thread
Some disgruntlement. Some talk of 'recourse'
A subsequent Oscha inspection
Pics of her boss' shop on the internet along with commentary

I wouldn't support her hire anywhere. I would not run a job with her on it. Anyone who asked me about her--'trouble. Stay away'
It is called a blackballed. I don't care if it deemed incorrect or insensitive or whatever. 

A lot of contractors on the PT got work. Pick her up why don't you.
I'm honest here. How honest are the PTers?
Who is hiring Mandy knowing what you know?


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## CApainter

bryceraisanen said:


> Everyone is jumping to conclusions until someone confirms that lead exists. PHM could've done her own lead test b4 committing to work there, and most likely should have. Interesting that Osha showed up now after how long?
> 
> K im all for being a responsible contractor. But you guys/gals act like its agent orange or vx gas or something. Seriously, guess how many ppm of lead there is coming outta every drinking fountain/shower/toilet/garden hose/laundry machine that is supplied by a water tower over 30 years old. Every older university I have been to seems like half the plumbing pipe are still lead laden. Get a grip.


The problem for workers who are around the lead dust, is that they take it home to their children who are more detrimentally affected from exposure. Besides, its the law.


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## Stretch67

oden said:


> o.k
> knowing what i know from the thread
> some disgruntlement. Some talk of 'recourse'
> a subsequent oscha inspection
> pics of her boss' shop on the internet along with commentary
> 
> i wouldn't support her hire anywhere. I would not run a job with her on it. Anyone who asked me about her--'trouble. Stay away'
> it is called a blackballed. I don't care if it deemed incorrect or insensitive or whatever.
> 
> A lot of contractors on the pt got work. Pick her up why don't you.
> I'm honest here. How honest are the pters?
> Who is hiring mandy knowing what you know?



NOT ME NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and u got brass balls oden, even for PT


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## CApainter

Oden said:


> O.K
> Knowing what I know from the thread
> Some disgruntlement. Some talk of 'recourse'
> A subsequent Oscha inspection
> Pics of her boss' shop on the internet along with commentary
> 
> I wouldn't support her hire anywhere. I would not run a job with her on it. Anyone who asked me about her--'trouble. Stay away'
> It is called a blackballed. I don't care if it deemed incorrect or insensitive or whatever.
> 
> A lot of contractors on the PT got work. Pick her up why don't you.
> I'm honest here. How honest are the PTers?
> Who is hiring Mandy knowing what you know?


So as workers, we're just suppose to keep our mouths shut while some lame ass contractor subjects us to poisons without providing us with at least the most basic personal protection? I don't think so. Painting is not important enough to me to allow some reckless F Tard to play entrepreneur at my expense.


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## Stretch67

CApainter said:


> The problem for workers who are around the lead dust, is that they take it home to their children who are more detrimentally affected from exposure. Besides, its the law.


I have children. Love em! Do u? U ever tested the water at their school?

Besides, its the law......... so, if your going 56 in a 55 mph, and the cop gives you a ticket, how do u feel? Then how do u feel when your "excessive speed" was determined to be what caused some other driver to enact an "evasive maneuver" and ended up dead cause if it and now is seeking "recourse". All because u were breakin the law.


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## CApainter

bryceraisanen said:


> I have children. Love em! Do u? U ever tested the water at their school?
> 
> Besides, its the law......... so, if your going 56 in a 55 mph, and the cop gives you a ticket, how do u feel? Then how do u feel when your "excessive speed" was determined to be what caused some other driver to enact an "evasive maneuver" and ended up dead cause if it. All because u were breakin the law.


I don't know where you live bryce, but I can guarantee you that there isn't any measurable lead in our drinking water.


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## Stretch67

CApainter said:


> So as workers, we're just suppose to keep our mouths shut while some lame ass contractor subjects us to poisons without providing us with at least the most basic personal protection? I don't think so. Painting is not important enough to me to allow some reckless F Tard to play entrepreneur at my expense.


No.

But we are all adults here. If I was concerned, I would be there 45 minutes early on the first day and would have a half dozen lead tests done before anyone else even showed up. 

It fries me every day when I gotta wonder which one of the guys is gonna sue me next. And I seriously provide everything, equipment, training, manuals, tailgate meetings blah blah blah. We dont do anything lead, just passed on a big job last week cause our salesman detected lead. But jeesh, at what point does a person wake up an say ok "im all grown up now its a big bad world and I need to look out for myself"????


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## CApainter

bryceraisanen said:


> I have children. Love em! Do u? U ever tested the water at their school?
> 
> Besides, its the law......... so, if your going 56 in a 55 mph, and the cop gives you a ticket, how do u feel? Then how do u feel when your "excessive speed" was determined to be what caused some other driver to enact an "evasive maneuver" and ended up dead cause if it and now is seeking "recourse". All because u were breakin the law.


If you're trying to equate the hazards of lead, to driving one mile per hour over the speed limit, you've got a lot to learn about a painters responsibilities to not only our health, but also to the environment with which we all share equal responsibility as polluters and care takers.


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## CApainter

bryceraisanen said:


> No.
> 
> But we are all adults here. If I was concerned, I would be there 45 minutes early on the first day and would have a half dozen lead tests done before anyone else even showed up.
> 
> It fries me every day when I gotta wonder which one of the guys is gonna sue me next. And I seriously provide everything, equipment, training, manuals, tailgate meetings blah blah blah. We dont do anything lead, just passed on a big job last week cause our salesman detected lead. But jeesh, at what point does a person wake up an say ok "im all grown up now its a big bad world and I need to look out for myself"????


You assumed responsibility once you committed to being a painting contractor. It's not the employee's fault that you're now burdened by the rules. You hopefully knew what you were getting into before you signed up. Right?


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## Stretch67

CApainter said:


> I don't know where you live bryce, but I can guarantee you that there isn't any measurable lead in our drinking water.


I'm in MN.

No you can't.

What about the dorms at UC Berkely or whatever older schools might be out there?

Like I say, bad on contractor if they are actually trying to be sneaky. But also for PHM, she been suspecting for month now? Those lead tests are like a buck a pop.

I guess I just have a thing with the general lack of personal responsibility nowadays. This has looked like a setup from the beginning. Im not one to mince words.

P.s. a lot more lead floating around than u think


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## daArch

Bryce,

Have you ever had elevated lead levels?

When you've walked a mile in these shoes, you may change you tune about the dangers of lead. I had to learn the hard way, I now try to prevent my fellow painter/paperhangers from going through the same ordeal my partner and I experienced.

As to hiring a person who was justly sensitive about the dangers of lead? In an instant. I got a little tired of looking out for the welfare and stopping the unsafe practices of "kids" who thought they were indestructible. I'd hire a mature adult who understood workplace safety without hesitation.


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## Stretch67

daArch said:


> Bryce,
> 
> Have you ever had elevated lead levels?
> 
> When you've walked a mile in these shoes, you may change you tune about the dangers of lead. I had to learn the hard way, I now try to prevent my fellow painter/paperhangers from going through the same ordeal my partner and I experienced.
> 
> As to hiring a person who was justly sensitive about the dangers of lead? In an instant. I got a little tired of looking out for the welfare and stopping the unsafe practices of "kids" who thought they were indestructible. I'd hire a mature adult who understood workplace safety without hesitation.


To my knowledge, no. Im not disputing the notion that lead can and oftentimes will cause negative effects on health. 

I just have a problem with how this whole scenario has played out. It couldve been dealt with looong b4 osha showed up.

Heres how it works in my shop. If anyone is caught (by me or whoever) using an unsafe or defective tool/ladder/scaffold/swingstage/harness/scissorlift/boom truck or whatever it might be, YOUR FIRED!!!!! 

I worked for a guy that was of the wreckless variety, and told him to get bent when he wanted us to do somethin unsafe. So then he broke down an spent the money for the right equipment.


I look at this like one of my guys continuing on using a broken ladder for a month and then not reporting it till someone broke their ankle. There is a difference between "justly sensitive" and "entrapment".


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> So as workers, we're just suppose to keep our mouths shut while some lame ass contractor subjects us to poisons without providing us with at least the most basic personal protection? I don't think so. Painting is not important enough to me to allow some reckless F Tard to play entrepreneur at my expense.


I think your right, and you'd most likely be on the road pounding the pavement. looking for a job with a healthy environment. Because, it is not worth it, right! The employer is wrong, but your health is more important than him being wrong. Why go back for more exposure? Would you walk a steel beam 20 or 30 ft high without a being tied off? Just because your boss needed a quick touch up. I dont think you would, what is the difference here if you believe you are exposed to a poisonous deadly environment? My question to Mandi would be why are you risking your health? I would not want a employer willing to take such risk. another words get the hell out of dodge! If you are sticking around you are either a idiot or your wanting a payout. either way you are a bad candidate for employment


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## CApainter

ewingpainting.net said:


> I think your right, and you'd most likely be on the road pounding the pavement. looking for a job with a healthy environment. Because, it is not worth it, right! The employer is wrong, but your health is more important than him being wrong. Why go back for more exposure? Would you walk a steel beam 20 or 30 ft high without a being tied off? Just because your boss needed a quick touch up. I dont think you would, what is the difference here if you believe you are exposed to a poisonous deadly environment? My question to Mandi would be why are you risking your health? I would not want a employer willing to take such risk. another words get the hell out of dodge! If you are sticking around you are either a idiot or your wanting a payout. either way you are a bad candidate for employment


Good point Gabe, but a lot of workers don't have the luxury of walking away from unscrupulous employers if their economic situation can't support the time it takes to look for a new job. Labor laws help protect workers from getting pigeon holed into unsafe work conditions. This is basically how organized labor began in places like the Appalachia's, where miners were exploited because of the lack of employment options.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

Oden said:


> O.K
> Knowing what I know from the thread
> Some disgruntlement. Some talk of 'recourse'
> A subsequent Oscha inspection
> Pics of her boss' shop on the internet along with commentary
> 
> I wouldn't support her hire anywhere. I would not run a job with her on it. Anyone who asked me about her--'trouble. Stay away'
> It is called a blackballed. I don't care if it deemed incorrect or insensitive or whatever.
> 
> A lot of contractors on the PT got work. Pick her up why don't you.
> I'm honest here. How honest are the PTers?
> Who is hiring Mandy knowing what you know?


Really Oden? That is a little bit uncalled for to be so judgemental towards me.

It sounds like you are assuming that I called OSHA, which I did not. 

My only question was what are the responsibility of an owner to disclose the info that lead paint is present.

Seriously, you don't have to be rude.

Your right Oden, no big deal. I should just take it like a man.
Love all this no harm no foul talk.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

bryceraisanen said:


> I have children. Love em! Do u? U ever tested the water at their school?
> 
> Besides, its the law......... so, if your going 56 in a 55 mph, and the cop gives you a ticket, how do u feel? Then how do u feel when your "excessive speed" was determined to be what caused some other driver to enact an "evasive maneuver" and ended up dead cause if it and now is seeking "recourse". All because u were breakin the law.


..... wow


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## Jmayspaint

Even the ancients knew about lead poisoning. Those unfortunates that had to work in the lead mines were proof enough. Lead was just such a useful material, they deemed using it worth the risk. And the lives of those forced to mine it were of little consequence. 

It always baffles me a little when people shrug off the dangers as overblown or inconsequential. It's a known poison, has been for thousands of years. Might as well avoid it if possible, and it is possible with some simple precautions. 

Mandy, buy some test swabs so you can see for yourself in the future. Idk what you could do about it now except get your blood levels checked and try to avoid future exposure. 

Unfortunately, I think there are still a lot of contractors out there that are either ignorant of the law, or ignoring it.


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## Stretch67

CApainter said:


> Good point Gabe, but a lot of workers don't have the luxury of walking away from unscrupulous employers if their economic situation can't support the time it takes to look for a new job. Labor laws help protect workers from getting pigeon holed into unsafe work conditions. This is basically how organized labor began in places like the Appalachia's, where miners were exploited because of the lack of employment options.


"There own economic situation...." who's fault is that? Again, comes down to personal responsibility. Im on a HUGE prevailing wage job right now. The least anyone is making is 51 bucks an hour. Some of these guys (carpenters) have been here over 6 months and they still complain on break about how broke they are and their rent payment is late yada yada yada.... but in the same sentence they will brag about what a good time they had at the bar last night! Now im not insinuating anything like that on PHM. Im just trying to point out that if you cant afford to walk away its nobodys fault but your own. And trust, I had a two years of my life where all I ate was 2 party pizzas a day cause that was all I could afford cause they are a buck a piece.

Its no different employer/employee. I cant even count the times I had to work for peanuts and in sub-par conditions because I didnt have no other option. Years ago, I poured concrete in williston nd in -56 F actual temperature. One guy got frostbite so bad he had to have his finger removed. I dealt with my face peeling/blistering for a couple months like a wicked sunburn. But im the one who put myself in that situation. Now I know not to borrow money.


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## CApainter

Bryce,

The bottom line is, when someone assumes the responsibility of putting others in harms way, but fails to provide training or other safe guards, they are acting with neglect and should be called on it. And the probability that PHM was responding to an invite for employment through ads or other means rather then asking for work, puts the onus on the employer even more to explain what she was getting into. The employer will no doubt plead ignorant to OSHA and will likely be slapped with a token fine and requirements to get his act together, so I wouldn't feel too sorry for him.


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> Good point Gabe, but a lot of workers don't have the luxury of walking away from unscrupulous employers if their economic situation can't support the time it takes to look for a new job. Labor laws help protect workers from getting pigeon holed into unsafe work conditions. This is basically how organized labor began in places like the Appalachia's, where miners were exploited because of the lack of employment options.


Sorry, but I dont buy it. No Money even rent money is not worth the risk. jmo
I do agree the employer is and should be responsible for creating a healthy environment. What I am saying does not eliminate that fact. 

I've had this happen to me on a 2 story apartment building while working for a pc in my 20's
Employer "paint the fascia boards"
Me "we dont have a ladder"
Employer "just hang over on the roof"
Me "you can phuck off right about now"

My employer was wrong, and I am not going to listen or take orders form someone that is having a ignorant moment. That would just make me just as ignorant as him


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## Gough

ewingpainting.net said:


> Sorry, but I dont buy it. No Money even rent money is not worth the risk. jmo
> I do agree the employer is and should be responsible for creating a healthy environment. What I am saying does not eliminate that fact.
> 
> I've had this happen to me on a 2 story apartment building while working for a pc in my 20's
> Employer "paint the fascia boards"
> Me "we dont have a ladder"
> Employer "just hang over on the roof"
> Me "you can phuck off right about now"
> 
> My employer was wrong, and I am not going to listen or take orders form someone that is having a ignorant moment. That would just make me just as ignorant as him


That doesn't seem to me to be a valid comparison to PHM's situation. She asked her employer about lead paint, and he misled her about it. Only after OSHA came on site was it clear that he'd done so. 

While I agree that employees share responsibilities for safety, where's the line? Should every employee have to test for LBP? Do they have to locate every MSDS for the products to which they're being exposed?


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## ewingpainting.net

Gough said:


> That doesn't seem to me to be a valid comparison to PHM's situation. She asked her employer about lead paint, and he misled her about it. Only after OSHA came on site was it clear that he'd done so.
> 
> While I agree that employees share responsibilities for safety, where's the line? Should every employee have to test for LBP? Do they have to locate every MSDS for the products to which they're being exposed?


No, but the op was prior to osha visit. She obviously was aware of the hazards. I wouldn't be surprised if she called osha, rightfully so. Doesn't mean you should walk into a lions den with a slab of beef.


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## CApainter

ewingpainting.net said:


> No, but the op was prior to osha visit. She obviously was aware of the hazards. I wouldn't be surprised if she called osha, rightfully so. Doesn't mean you should walk into a lions den with a slab of beef.


The problem with a hazard like lead, is that all initial indications appear to be benign. Psychologically, it's difficult to bring attention to the level of concern when other workers are happily going about their business in T-shirts and sandles while M83 is playing in the background.


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> The problem with a hazard like lead, is that all initial indications appear to be benign. Psychologically, it's difficult to bring attention to the level of concern when other workers are happily going about their business in T-shirts and sandles while M83 is playing in the background.


The op was highly concerned with being exposed to lead, to the point of posting about it on a pro painting forum. She obviously was/is aware of the potential risk, she chose to return to the same environment conditions she originally posted. She has the right to protect herself and refuse to expose herself. If she got fired over that she would have a whole other employment case, possibly wrongful termination. 

My employees have expressed concerns with safety issues, I looked at it and made adjustments for their safety and well being. Safety is respected in the highest regard. If you have a employer who doesn't give a sh! T, get the hell out of there


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## CApainter

Again, it goes back to the circumstances an employee is subject to. 

As an employee with an obligation to follow instructions or be disciplined, I constantly have to weigh the circumstances I find myself in. And many times, I've bypassed the PPE available to me in the interest of time or convenience. That's on me. Especially when the hazards are communicated and the PPE is available. Throw in the macho attitude that still permeates many working environments, along with the culture of working through the pain and hazards, its no wonder a worker who is more sensitive may tumble the pros and cons in their heads before deciding to complain or quit.


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> Again, it goes back to the circumstances an employee is subject to.
> 
> As an employee with an obligation to follow instructions or be disciplined, I constantly have to weigh the circumstances I find myself in. And many times, I've bypassed the PPE available to me in the interest of time or convenience. That's on me. Especially when the hazards are communicated and the PPE is available. Throw in the macho attitude that still permeates many working environments, along with the culture of working through the pain and hazards, its no wonder a worker who is more sensitive may tumble the pros and cons in their heads before deciding to complain or quit.


When safety is concerned, use your right to express your concerns. If your to timid or insecure to express your concerns, find a office job with air conditioning and heating. Construction is not for you.


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## CApainter

ewingpainting.net said:


> When safety is concerned, use your right to express your concerns. If your to timid or insecure to express your concerns, find a office job with air conditioning and heating. Construction is not for you.


That is a valid point. But when you're dealing with Type A personalities that are in a leadership, or ownership role, its not so easy to expresss one's self without the owner feeling challenged. Not everyone likes confrontations, but that doesn't mean they don't have something to offer because they didn't complain. Laws governing Workers Rights are often overlooked by the workers, but if made more aware, would help concerned workers express themselves better.


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> That is a valid point. But when you're dealing with Type A personalities that are in a leadership, or ownership role, its not so easy to expresss one's self without the owner feeling challenged. Not everyone likes confrontations, but that doesn't mean they don't have something to offer because they didn't complain. Laws governing Workers Rights are often overlooked by the workers, but if made more aware, would help concerned workers express themselves better.


Guess what I am saying is a employee like such would not fit in with our company models. We even have a no rumors policy, in which if you feel or have taken something wrong or taken its original intent out of context, or if it jy st needs clarification. Dont go around stirring the pot, come to me or a superior and talk, get it cleared up and get back to work.


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## Gough

ewingpainting.net said:


> Guess what I am saying is a employee like such would not fit in with our company models. We even have a no rumors policy, in which if you feel or have taken something wrong or taken its original intent out of context, or if it jy st needs clarification. Dont go around stirring the pot, come to me or a superior and talk, get it cleared up and get back to work.


I was under the impression that's what the OP tried to do: went to her employer and asked for clarification about the lead situation. His way to "clear it up" was to mislead her about it.


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## CApainter

Gough said:


> I was under the impression that's what the OP tried to do: went to her employer and asked for clarification about the lead situation. His way to "clear it up" was to mislead her about it.


It does seem like we've veered from where the responsibily lies. And that is clearly with the employer. Period. It's not up to employees to implement Safe Work Practices by quiting, or getting out of the trades altogether because an employer is too Neandrethal to know any better.

And if any members are cavemen, I apologize.


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## ewingpainting.net

Gough said:


> I was under the impression that's what the OP tried to do: went to her employer and asked for clarification about the lead situation. His way to "clear it up" was to mislead her about it.


She inquired about "Recourse" then returned to the same environment she was inquiring about. 

Of course the employer is ultimately responsible. At the same time a person should have practical common sense of danger and, not return to the environment. it's not all that difficult to understand.


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## CApainter

ewingpainting.net said:


> She inquired about "Recourse" then returned to the same environment she was inquiring about.
> 
> Of course the employer is ultimately responsible. At the same time a person should have practical common sense of danger and, not return to the environment. it's not all that difficult to understand.


If I had the luxury or common sense not to enter a dangerous environment, I wouldn't drive on the freeway. But for practical reasons, I have to.


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## ewingpainting.net

CApainter said:


> If I had the luxury or common sense not to enter a dangerous environment, I wouldn't drive on the freeway. But for practical reasons, I have to.


This is getting ridiculous, you wouldn't, drive against traffic or ride your bicycle in the fast lane would you? Even if your employer asked you too or not. Unless you lack commen sense you would. Its not practical to knowingly work in a environment that could kill you. Basic commen sense says you will die and you will never work again. I have no room for employees that would go to such extremes for a buck, b they are a liability to themselves, the other employees and the company. 

We're just repeating ourselves, no need to further this discussion on this topic.


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## Oden

Meeh. Four weeks in is all. You don't like the way a outfit runs you ask for ur money and get on down the road with ur reputation in tact.
Somebody lied to u? Well welcome to America

And the irony. Beimg a union guy and some of the coxkomany ideas some contractors on the PT have of our workforce. Recourse? Lol
Ur recourse is to go get another job leave the one you don't like for somebody else


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## Oden

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Really Oden? That is a little bit uncalled for to be so judgemental towards me. It sounds like you are assuming that I called OSHA, which I did not. My only question was what are the responsibility of an owner to disclose the info that lead paint is present. Seriously, you don't have to be rude. Your right Oden, no big deal. I should just take it like a man. Love all this no harm no foul talk.


Hold on my computer skills lack. B rite back


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## Oden

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Sorry for the long wait for a response. .. I had been hired by a window restoration company to paint the window sashes. On the first day I asked the owner of the window company it lead paint had been used. I was told no, that they were already converted to non lead paint.... I was told to set my work area up right next to the person who was scrapping and sanding the paint off the windows. There was lots of dust and I have been very itchy and not feeling well lately. I have been on the job for going on 4 weeks. What did I mean by recourse? Well I don't know. .. I don't like being lied to. And ugh, I think the chit is pretty nasty. Well today, OSHA showed up. They were there for 3 violations, 1. Electrical cords laying in standing water, 2. Unsafe saws, 3. Lead paint dust exposure. (Surprise!) The owner told everyone to scatter, and I'm not waiting around for them to leave. I'm going home. Happening right now. I am working at the saw horses. The scrapping of dust happening not far from me. Windows before Windows after The building The view. Hey, at least the view is nice


If you did not call OSHA? Then how do you at this point know what violations they are checking into?


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## eews

Doesn't OSHA require regular safety meetings, wherein topics like this should come up. Everyone should be on board with the proper procedures, even on a job to job basis.

It's a different thing , though, if the employer knowingly lies about a situation. If an employee is told something is safe, and in fact it isn't, that might be actionable.


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## Stretch67

CApainter said:


> Bryce,
> 
> The bottom line is, when someone assumes the responsibility of putting others in harms way, but fails to provide training or other safe guards, they are acting with neglect and should be called on it. And the probability that PHM was responding to an invite for employment through ads or other means rather then asking for work, puts the onus on the employer even more to explain what she was getting into. The employer will no doubt plead ignorant to OSHA and will likely be slapped with a token fine and requirements to get his act together, so I wouldn't feel too sorry for him.


Duly noted. But the "contractor" isn't here on PT for me to give him a proper rebuking. 

I grew up with the "It takes two to tangle" theory beat into my head on a daily basis. It didn't matter who's fault it was; everyone was gonna suffer the consequences when dad got home. 

Imho, it is no more the responsibility of the employer than it is the employee who keeps working there when they know they should not. If "bad" contractors couldn't find any staff, they would cease to exist. 

Public opinion and the "law" put the responsibility on the employer. Gee I wonder why? Maybe cause one group has 99% of the votes eh? But does that make it right? Iderno... everything seems to be slanted against entrepreneurship. 

Like I said, I just don't like the sequence of events here, doesn't seem like everything's on the up and up... 

We are probably gonna have to let this one rest. But hey, at least I got enough posts to apply to the political zone! !


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## Gough

Oden said:


> If you did not call OSHA? Then how do you at this point know what violations they are checking into?


When we've been on jobs visited by OSHA or WISHA, it was abundantly clear what violations they were checking.


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## ewingpainting.net

When I have had osha visit our sites (4 times) the 1st time we got tagged for no cup holder for our wayter and for a employee that was on the roof without being tied off. The employees never knew of the violations, we just shut the job down and send employees home for the day.


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## Oden

ewingpainting.net said:


> When I have had osha visit our sites (4 times) the 1st time we got tagged for no cup holder for our wayter and for a employee that was on the roof without being tied off. The employees never knew of the violations, we just shut the job down and send employees home for the day.


I was going to but decided not to state the obvious. That a owner or super would become aware pretty quick what they were looking at. And the four weeks seniority help who'd been shoed away would not. Please.....


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## ewingpainting.net

Oden said:


> I was going to but decided not to state the obvious. That a owner or super would become aware pretty quick what they were looking at. And the four weeks seniority help who'd been shoed away would not. Please.....


I dont understand what you are saying here. We use to send employees home, we then moved to break time until osha was gone. They were not aware because the violations were tedious, and we didnt feel they were responsible. We corrected by installing a complete IIPP, the issues were addressed in our plan along with our code of safe practice. we payed a fine and went on with business


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## Oden

As I am inclined to the thread puts me in a what would I do state of mind. I've never called nobody for nothing. Not once. Never would. My reputation is solid. Nobody needs troublemakers. And no outfit could stand up to scrutinity no matter how tight their ship.

And as far as Handi Mandi no rudeness intended actually. Sorry u feel that way. Hopefully ur anonymous and I don't know.
Fact is. Ur biggest backers on the thread would not put you to work for them. If they knew you were you and you were seeking employment with them. Not a doubt in my mind about that.


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## ewingpainting.net

Oden said:


> As I am inclined to the thread puts me in a what would I do state of mind. I've never called nobody for nothing. Not once. Never would. My reputation is solid. Nobody needs troublemakers. And no outfit could stand up to scrutinity no matter how tight their ship is


Exactly why we stopped all work, no matter how good you think your system is, people still do dumb things, and it would be the exact moment osha came around the corner.


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## Gough

ewingpainting.net said:


> Exactly why we stopped all work, no matter how good you think your system is, people still do dumb things, and it would be the exact moment osha came around the corner.


On one job, all of the trades stopped and moved away from all tools and equipment. The WISHA inspectors spotted a cord with the grounding lug removed and tried to establish ownership. Nobody said a thing...then an electrician walked in from outside, looked around for a minute and then loudly inquired as to who had taken his extension cord....

That and some work footwear violations were the only ones on that job. Who knew you needed ANSI-rated sneakers???


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## daArch

I do so love when folks post something on an internet forum how the words themselves cannot be taken at face value. How the mere mention of even a slightly controversial subject can cause folks to infer and/or read additional information than that which was posted.


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## CApainter

daArch said:


> I do so love when folks post something on an internet forum how the words themselves cannot be taken at face value. How the mere mention of even a slightly controversial subject can cause folks to infer and/or read additional information than that which was posted.


This is too vague Bill. You need to actually point your finger towards whom you're referring to. It makes it more fun that way!


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## daArch

CApainter said:


> This is too vague Bill. You need to actually point your finger towards whom you're referring to. It makes it more fun that way!


John, WE are all guilty on this bus :thumbup:


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## Gough

daArch said:


> John, WE are all guilty on this bus :thumbup:


This thread makes it very clear that we're all seeing things through some very specific personal filters.


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## Oden

Gough said:



> Recourse? Every one that I can think of involves finding another employer, either now or later.


This pretty much summed it up on page one.


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## CApainter

Gough said:


> This thread makes it very clear that we're all seeing things through some very specific personal filters.


I thought I was viewing this thread through the lens of the law:blink:


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## slinger58

Well this thread got interesting while I was taking time away from PT. Lots of interesting takes on this. 

bryceraisanen is a great believer in personal responsibility and I hope he will join us in the PZ.

Oden points out the realities of the business: right or wrong, they just _are_.

As Gabe pointed out in one post, his company was tagged for not having a cup-holder on the water-cooler. (Really!?:blink That points to _why_ there is so much disdain for the rules and regulations handed down from the "rules-writers".
(I'm doing my best not to get political here, it's all in the semantics)

Gough points out that in the case of an OSHA inspection, it's best to take a break and walk away from the tools and equipment.

:rockon:


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## ewingpainting.net

I do so love when members post something on an internet forum giving advice on which they themselves failed to achieve due to lack and/or limited in experience of the subject.


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## daArch

I love being revered so much my words are mimicked :notworthy: :notworthy:


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## ewingpainting.net

your making me laugh bill


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## Gough

ewingpainting.net said:


> I do so love when members post something on an internet forum giving advice on which they themselves failed to achieve due to lack and/or limited in experience of the subject.


That's the beauty of the internet.:whistling2:


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## bklynboy1970

Oden said:


> Hold on my computer skills lack. B rite back


My wife isn't a snitch...she asked because she was nervous for her welfare as well as my son if you don't have nothing of help don't answer ...if you assume you make a ass of your self you self righteous son of....get facts straight before hand


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## bklynboy1970

bryceraisanen said:


> Everyone is jumping to conclusions until someone confirms that lead exists. PHM could've done her own lead test b4 committing to work there, and most likely should have. Interesting that Osha showed up now after how long?
> 
> K im all for being a responsible contractor. But you guys/gals act like its agent orange or vx gas or something. Seriously, guess how many ppm of lead there is coming outta every drinking fountain/shower/toilet/garden hose/laundry machine that is supplied by a water tower over 30 years old. Every older university I have been to seems like half the plumbing pipe are still lead laden. Get a grip.


Why would nor is she supposed to its the company's responsibility not hers!! What don't you comprehend. ..stunode...that's Italian for stupid. ..


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## bklynboy1970

ewingpainting.net said:


> She inquired about "Recourse" then returned to the same environment she was inquiring about.
> 
> Of course the employer is ultimately responsible. At the same time a person should have practical common sense of danger and, not return to the environment. it's not all that difficult to understand.


She asked boss lied...she is in process of getting ...you try and live with no money coming ...haha ya know this site is for answering questions from pros and some of yalls comments are very rude...


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## bklynboy1970

Oden said:


> Ironic. I'm just a painter and I am not on her side a little bit
> If you don't want to work there. You move on.
> Unbeleivable to me that contractors are feeding into this crap on here.


You my friend should shut your mouth...need an address or a phone number....?


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## bklynboy1970

Oden said:


> Just a painter workin with the tools here.
> Beleive it or not we regulate our own. As best we can.
> No harm. No foul. Move along.


I see how you care about your employees. ..d....bag


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## bklynboy1970

Gough said:


> As I wrote above, I'd like to see a little more information before declaring "no harm", but that may be the case.


Sounds great...thank you and you my friend are a stand up guy...I commend you👍


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## bklynboy1970

bryceraisanen said:


> Everyone is jumping to conclusions until someone confirms that lead exists. PHM could've done her own lead test b4 committing to work there, and most likely should have. Interesting that Osha showed up now after how long?
> 
> K im all for being a responsible contractor. But you guys/gals act like its agent orange or vx gas or something. Seriously, guess how many ppm of lead there is coming outta every drinking fountain/shower/toilet/garden hose/laundry machine that is supplied by a water tower over 30 years old. Every older university I have been to seems like half the plumbing pipe are still lead laden. Get a grip.


There is lead...they moved the job of removal of old paint to a shop...with proper air vents ...but still aren't giving proper ppe...on job site they are all wearing ppe...what gives here...is there harm after a month of working in that environment. ..is the question. .boss is certified in lead removal. ..should all employees be certified....because they are still doing it wrong...should have proper ppe...imo


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## Oden

Lol
Waiting on a settlement also.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

Oden, ewing, etc.. Yall have it all wrong. 

Totally took my usage of the word recourse out of text.


And FYI, I have never in my life tread on anyone. Nor have I ever back stabbed. 

I am a genuinely a good hearted nice person. 

The OP was a quick post to find out what I should do. Recourse meant I was looking for answers.

________________________________________

And check this out.... perhaps this might put it in perspective. I only have one vehicle. My work truck that my son rides in everyday. 

Lead exposure lowers iq. This is a big issue for me. My son, who is 7, was tested for gifted classes. 
HE HAS A DOCUMENTED IQ OF 151!!!!

... genius is marked at 130. Average is about 90-100. .... He is 151.

So yes, this is a HUGE concern of mine.
My son is in the 99.97 percentile


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## Oden

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Oden, ewing, etc.. Yall have it all wrong. Totally took my usage of the word recourse out of text. And FYI, I have never in my life tread on anyone. Nor have I ever back stabbed. I am a genuinely a good hearted nice person. The OP was a quick post to find out what I should do. Recourse meant I was looking for answers. ________________________________________ And check this out.... perhaps this might put it in perspective. I only have one vehicle. My work truck that my son rides in everyday. Lead exposure lowers iq. This is a big issue for me. My son, who is 7, was tested for gifted classes. HE HAS A DOCUMENTED IQ OF 151!!!! ... genius is marked at 130. Average is about 90-100. .... He is 151. So yes, this is a HUGE concern of mine. My son is in the 99.97 percentile


Hey yo. Are you even making any money at this outfit? I can't imagine u r? Do something else. There is clean work put there. Get u some of that. IMO anyway.


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## Pretty Handy Mandi

Oden said:


> Hey yo. Are you even making any money at this outfit? I can't imagine u r? Do something else. There is clean work put there. Get u some of that. IMO anyway.


Yes, yes. I know. Yo


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## Oden

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Yes, yes. I know


And not for nothin. Where u live I dunno. U r a women. Minority status. Use it. There are jobs to be had in painting/construction that you got a better shot at than a dude would. Without knowin anyone that is. Get I bennies decent pay. Inquire with the local union halls, universities, hospitals, stuff like that. You might just be surprised at what you could kick up.


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## ewingpainting.net

Pretty Handy Mandi said:


> Oden, ewing, etc.. Yall have it all wrong.
> 
> Totally took my usage of the word recourse out of text.
> 
> 
> And FYI, I have never in my life tread on anyone. Nor have I ever back stabbed.
> 
> I am a genuinely a good hearted nice person.
> 
> The OP was a quick post to find out what I should do. Recourse meant I was looking for answers.
> 
> ________________________________________
> 
> And check this out.... perhaps this might put it in perspective. I only have one vehicle. My work truck that my son rides in everyday.
> 
> Lead exposure lowers iq. This is a big issue for me. My son, who is 7, was tested for gifted classes.
> HE HAS A DOCUMENTED IQ OF 151!!!!
> 
> ... genius is marked at 130. Average is about 90-100. .... He is 151.
> 
> So yes, this is a HUGE concern of mine.
> My son is in the 99.97 percentile


Im sure you are, doesn't mean you should go back to a environment that you know is dangerous. Protect yourself 1st! Respect yourself enough to expect safe work conditions from your employer. There are good contractors out there who care of their employees well being. Personally I would hesitate in hiring someone that knowingly returned to unsafe working conditions. like oden said, find a decent employer where you can make money, do what you love to do, and be able to go home everyday to your kids. The risk working for the scumbag you currently work for is not worth it.


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## ewingpainting.net

bklynboy1970 said:


> She asked boss lied...she is in process of getting ...you try and live with no money coming ...haha ya know this site is for answering questions from pros and some of yalls comments are very rude...


Hi, my name is Gabe. Have we met? 

Listen if you want to ask a question and only get a patty cake, poor you, the big bad wolf blew your house down response. This forum may not be for you. We are adults here, there is going to be different views and understanding of the situation. If you want a particular answer, pm me what you would like to hear and I will post it. lol


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## Stretch67

bklynboy1970 said:


> ...you try and live with no money coming .../QUOTE]
> 
> Read the thread man.
> 
> although I really feel for ya, it just reinforces what I been saying all along.


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