# I searched Cover Stain and my head is spinning



## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

I have read on a bloggers page that they have enjoyed using Cover Stain to reprime and or prime MDF trim work to enhance prep along with providing a sealed surface for the finish paint to level out nicer. So I am going to be facing my first big real side job with a builder and they have high expectations. I looked this up, to see what people think, only to see a huge mixed thought regarding Cover Stain and STIX. It also appears to be common to see people experience fish eyes with water borne alkyd which is my favorite product. Why isn't there just one for sure answer for MDF. Which is it, STIX or Cover Stain?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I have have great luck with just using advance primer and advance finish for mdf crap. 

Pat


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## Dreamscape Painting (Jun 17, 2012)

I have sprayed hundreds of gallons of Coverstain on MDF panelling and wood trim and think it's pretty darn great. In my experience it's important to make sure it's thinned to your standards so it doesn't go on too thick and cause ridges. In general, I think it thins really nice, sprays real nice, seals really well and sands good.

Having said all that, I've never used Stix...


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## Dreamscape Painting (Jun 17, 2012)

On a side note, Coverstain does stink pretty good, I've tried using the odorless Coverstain but found it didn't sand as well, maybe not a big deal if you are just priming a little bit here and there but if you are priming a whole lot, a little more sanding works out to a whole lot more...


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Paintdian said:


> Why isn't there just one for sure answer for MDF. Which is it, STIX or Cover Stain?


There _is_ one for sure answer for MDF. 

Post cat high build easy sanding primer + CV (solvent or WB take your pick) = done.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I like an oil primer on MDF. Cover stain works well.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Offhand, I can't think of anything that coverstain didn't work just fine on.

If they'd add a rust inhibitor to it..it'd be perfect.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> Offhand, I can't think of anything that coverstain didn't work just fine on.
> 
> If they'd add a rust inhibitor to it..it'd be perfect.



Yea really, its never failed me. 

It will actually hold small scale rust (nail heads etc..) for a year or two. Just by virtue of being oil base I guess.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

First real side job? So you are not a contractor, and this builder hiring you has high expectations!! :whistling2: Ask your boss what he would use.


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Great. It sounds to me that Cover Stain is worth giving a try and see how it goes in this moment of time. I have never used Advance, I have seen many good things online about it. I have only used two WB Alkyd paints that are supplied by two Canadian paint stores with three coats on all our trim work. I notice that when I spray the WB Alkyd onto a metal exterior door it will take a little longer to set up. Its very obvious that the finish on the door is more leveled and smoother then on the MDF. I have come to understand that the MFD in either unprimed or preprimed form does not have a surface for the paint to set up on vs. soak into. I look forward to sealing the trim with Cover Stain and see what kind of finish I can give these builders. They got a referal for my attention to detail, and called me personally. I need to give it a whirl on the side. They have too many houses going up these days and their main painter is falling behind. They did try another supposed well known company to take off the load but they were no happy with the details. I need to provide something that stands out to make it worth my effort...


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Rcon said:


> There _is_ one for sure answer for MDF.
> 
> Post cat high build easy sanding primer + CV (solvent or WB take your pick) = done.


Post cat high build? Is that some kind of conversion primer or something. Hey I see your in Alberta. Im in Saskatchewan. Houses are coming up over at insane numbers.

EDIT: I just did a quick search on google. Is it Plastiprimer by Chemcraft??? I am very interested in this because I have heard of a well known fellow that does outstanding work to the point that he has been working in the same mansion for two years. I talked to a guy that used to be his helper and he always said that he used some kind of plastic primer. Is that what this is?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Paintdian said:


> Post cat high build? Is that some kind of conversion primer or something. Hey I see your in Alberta. Im in Saskatchewan. Houses are coming up over at insane numbers.
> 
> EDIT: I just did a quick search on google. Is it Plastiprimer by Chemcraft??? I am very interested in this because I have heard of a well known fellow that does outstanding work to the point that he has been working in the same mansion for two years. I talked to a guy that used to be his helper and he always said that he used some kind of plastic primer. Is that what this is?


I haven't had the opportunity to use any Chemcraft products but yes they would carry something similar to what i'm talking about. 

One of my personal favorites was Clawlock by MLC (solvent). Their Agualente line (WB) works quite well also. Spray apply only. What I preferred about those products over something like Coverstain was that it doesn't raise grain to the extent most other primers will and it sands down to a perfectly level, perfectly smooth powder. 

But you need the right equipment for this stuff. A brush and roller just won't cut it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Kem aqua surfacer works well too. Key to MDF is sanding properly first.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Paintdian said:


> I have read on a bloggers page that they have enjoyed using Cover Stain to reprime and or prime MDF trim work to enhance prep along with providing a sealed surface for the finish paint to level out nicer. So I am going to be facing my first big real side job with a builder and they have high expectations. I looked this up, to see what people think, only to see a huge mixed thought regarding Cover Stain and STIX. It also appears to be common to see people experience fish eyes with water borne alkyd which is my favorite product. Why isn't there just one for sure answer for MDF. Which is it, STIX or Cover Stain?


Using cover stain will also make your head spin!


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Rcon said:


> I haven't had the opportunity to use any Chemcraft products but yes they would carry something similar to what i'm talking about.
> 
> One of my personal favorites was Clawlock by MLC (solvent). Their Agualente line (WB) works quite well also. Spray apply only. What I preferred about those products over something like Coverstain was that it doesn't raise grain to the extent most other primers will and it sands down to a perfectly level, perfectly smooth powder.
> 
> But you need the right equipment for this stuff. A brush and roller just won't cut it.


If I can ask you about this it would help the thought process. Do you spray this solvent two part filler primer directly onto bare/pre primed MDF materials as-is? And then you sand it smooth prior to waterborne finish of choice? This sounds very interesting...

I do have my own Graco 390.


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Rcon said:


> There _is_ one for sure answer for MDF.
> 
> Post cat high build easy sanding primer + CV (solvent or WB take your pick) = done.


Does CV mean tinted conversion varnish? Can you use waterborne alkyd on to this method of re primed MDF? I really wish I could find out more about this method of sealing MDF trim.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> I have have great luck with just using advance primer and advance finish for mdf crap. Pat


Hey Pat
Do you prefer the Advance primer over the 046 (formerly Superior Primer)?


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Starting to lean towards Cover Stain on my MDF trim work because I am missing some key details on the whole high build post cat MDF product. Or can you put water borne paint overtop of this stuff?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

No way I would use coverstain for mdf. Seriously this stuff dries in 20 minutes and sands to a powder.


Sand really good before you apply the primer and it will be like glass after sanding this surfacer.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I have never seen MDF around here. Had to look up what it means. But, just wondering, if I do ever run into it, what is the justification for priming a product that is already primed. In other words, how does a painter justify to a HO the extra expense of priming a product that is already primed.


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## Dreamscape Painting (Jun 17, 2012)

It doesn't always come primed, they do have pre-primed casings made out of mdf but they also have it in raw sheets.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have never seen MDF around here. Had to look up what it means. But, just wondering, if I do ever run into it, what is the justification for priming a product that is already primed. In other words, how does a painter justify to a HO the extra expense of priming a product that is already primed.


I tell them the factory primer cant be trusted because its compatibility with the finish cannot be guarenteed. Further, the quality of finish will be better after a quality prime coat.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have never seen MDF around here. Had to look up what it means. But, just wondering, if I do ever run into it, what is the justification for priming a product that is already primed. In other words, how does a painter justify to a HO the extra expense of priming a product that is already primed.


Hi Pete, It's not an extra expense, it's mandatory unless someone's doing a diy home. See some people pre-sand mdf nail holes with an orbital or palm sander w/220, to flatten surface (Nails swell mdf) leaving little bits of raw wood, or carpenter rips boards here or there, and makes end cuts which would be raw and porous "wood". Also spackled nail holes and dings, dents, and all caulking need priming. An mdf board looks okay smooth to the untrained eye, but it is very porous sometimes orange peeled and has many imperfections which benefit from that primer and sand back to smooth finish. Sorry for long answer.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Also I sand surface scratches and small imperfections out of factory primer so I don't have to fill them, and I hand sand all edges of all mdf trim with fine sponges, and smooth corners before I prime with the airless. Then sand primer, vacuum and lacquer patch if its a high end job.
My favorite primer for success is lacquer undercoater high build, two coats, hand sand to super smooth finish very easily.. it fills those rough porous end cuts of the mdf too which most alkyds won't.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> No way I would use coverstain for mdf. Seriously this stuff dries in 20 minutes and sands to a powder. Sand really good before you apply the primer and it will be like glass after sanding this surfacer.


Hey Tommy
Are you going over existing finished cabinets with that product, or are you using a boding primer first? I know I've asked you that before, but couldn't remember. They did a great job on the TDS for that product, speccing out all the different spray equipment settings etc.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Damon T said:


> Hey Tommy
> Are you going over existing finished cabinets with that product, or are you using a boding primer first? I know I've asked you that before, but couldn't remember. They did a great job on the TDS for that product, speccing out all the different spray equipment settings etc.


No I pretty much only use white shellac for priming refinishes now. Still using KA topcoats. I have been using this stuff on new wood for a while now though. 

Being able to stack coats 20 minutes apart is really nice. You can build up the primer really fast and it sands incredibly well.


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> My favorite primer for success is lacquer undercoater high build, two coats, hand sand to super smooth finish very easily.. it fills those rough porous end cuts of the mdf too which most alkyds won't.


Hey do you need to use lacquer top coat on this high build primer? Or can you use waterborne products??? This is the one thing I am missing with what sounds like a great way to re prime MDF.




straight_lines said:


> Being able to stack coats 20 minutes apart is really nice. You can build up the primer really fast and it sands incredibly well.


Is the prime you use the next best thing? Does it have high build characteristics? Being a waterborne would be nice to work with if it serves characteristics of the other two solvent based products. Is there anything else you can share about this particular product from SW? Looking at their products, they seem to have like 30 different undercoat primers! Man.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> No I pretty much only use white shellac for priming refinishes now. Still using KA topcoats. I have been using this stuff on new wood for a while now though. Being able to stack coats 20 minutes apart is really nice. You can build up the primer really fast and it sands incredibly well.


So the KA plus over the BIN? Have you looked into the BIN ADVANCED yet? Supposed to meet or exceed all of the BIN characteristics. Except dry time. Not quiet as fast there. 
I saw on the TDS not to build up KA over 4 mils dft. I wasn't sure if that was for the entire system, including the surfacer and topcoat. You would want to make sure not to go too heavy if that was the case.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Damon T said:


> So the KA plus over the BIN? Have you looked into the BIN ADVANCED yet? Supposed to meet or exceed all of the BIN characteristics. Except dry time. Not quiet as fast there.
> I saw on the TDS not to build up KA over 4 mils dft. I wasn't sure if that was for the entire system, including the surfacer and topcoat. You would want to make sure not to go too heavy if that was the case.


I have been using the old KA because of supply issues and singles of ka+, yes when priming we usually two really light coats and sand. The only system that support said had been tested and approved on that knotty pine job we did was shellac.

Knots kept bleeding through the wb undercoater. I love shellac and use it all the time though. I have another of those pine jobs I have scheduled to look at next week. 

The reason I love using ka is the dry times and very low early blocking. Really hard coating too. 

Haven't used bin advance, but its probably similar to that inslx alcohol primer.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Paintdian said:


> Hey do you need to use lacquer top coat on this high build primer? Or can you use waterborne products??? This is the one thing I am missing with what sounds like a great way to re prime MDF.
> 
> 
> 
> No you don't have to use only lacquer based products over lacquer undercoater, typically we are using alkyds like satin Impervo, pro classic, southwest builders high gloss. I have once used a latex topcoat that I can remember ( B.M. metal and wood enamel) and it had poor adhesion. I believe the problem may have been that particular topcoat, it was right before advance came out and I believe metal and wood enamel turned into advance.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Paintdian, oh I should say though. Lacquer undercoater takes some on the job training to know what to expect in some respects. Its hard to give advice about it when not on the jobsite.... But the masking job has to be done a little different than your average oil-pack (mill-pack). The tape on walls or windows, or floors will curl if not taped with 1.5 inch, and taped tight, no wrinkles, and not ripped with oil from fingers getting on adhesive. We lay the tape, smooth tight with nice putty knive, and rip tape back across putty knife edge to rip tape. If you are taping off walls, run 1 inch tape to do baseboard lines, then run 1.5 inch blonde on with masking paper really close above that line, around 1/8" up, that way when tape curls, the bottom layer of tape holds tight line. You have you run putty knife flat over all that curled tape before sanding it, if you run your hand to push it down you will slice your fingers bad. Also you have to use lacquer tape over any lacquered surfaces like hardware or cabinets to be safe.


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks for the direct input regarding this. I have not yet decided if I want to use this lacquer undercoat or not. I am happy to hear that you can use waterborne on it. I prefer the alkyds, have never used Advance, but I don't intend on it at this time. So it sounds like the tape needs to be beefed up due to curling. This is a good heads up, when masking off PVC window sills do you even run your 1 inch first followed with paper/1.5? I won't need to be masking off any floors on this job it will be subfloor. There might be some mirrored doors, and take your advice likewise regarding tape.

I have this question now. That Kem Aqua primer that striaght_lines mentions from Shewin Williams looked to be a water borne laquer? Unless I missed something. Can you say if this product would serve just as good results? I don't know if this stuff is high build. It seems like this two part high build lacquer undercoater will provide 'auto body' type prep work prior to top coats of paint.

Anything more further regarding your knowledge would be awsome.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Hey there, you do not need to double tape everything like that, but on a full wrap window trim, it does help. I do in opposite order though. If you can try lacquer tape on more things it would eliminate some doubt..

So is the KA a two part? The lacquer undercoater I speak of is not. I don't recall using that product but seems like a great idea if it's not finnicky. Lac undercoater is like shellac- but lacquer, so you need plenty of ventilation, resp cartridges at all times, and maybe shouldn't use WB topcoat with it. 
KA probably sands good or great I don't know, but I know Lac undercoater, sands instantly, and you can add retarder to it to make it ridiculously easy to sand.


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## Paintdian (Apr 17, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> No you don't have to use only lacquer based products over lacquer undercoater, typically we are using alkyds like satin Impervo





ridesarize said:


> and maybe shouldn't use WB topcoat with it.


I appreciate your time with this subject. But this is really making my head spin. I am starting to lean back towards using Cover Stain, or even STIX. I liked the idea of the high build under coater such as the two part or the Kem Aqua from SW that I believe is ready to use out of the can. But I just can't get my head around the small things like weather its designed for WB alkyd top coats...

It sounds like Cover Stain and or STIX is in fact designed for WB top coats.


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