# Non-shrinking caulk for trim



## futtyos

I paint hi rise condos a few times a year in Chicago. Built in 1960, some of the walls are concrete. As such, sometimes the baseboards are not able to be secured close enough to the wall and there sometimes is up to a 3/16" gap. Is anyone here familiar with any caulk that does not shrink a lot or should I just plan on caulking twice where the gaps show shrinkage? Maybe fill the larger gaps with the light foam spackle first, then caulk?

futtyos


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## lilpaintchic

Just use the quick dry caulk and hit it twice...


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## Epoxy Pro

Tower tech or big stretch both don't shrink, in fact both will expand with the gaps. Both are a bit expensive bit its all we use now. DAP is crap, always having shrinking issues.


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## Wildbill7145

cdpainting said:


> Tower tech or big stretch both don't shrink, in fact both will expand with the gaps. Both are a bit expensive bit its all we use now. DAP is crap, always having shrinking issues.


DAP really has turned to crap. I used Alex+ since the first day I started painting. It was great for years, then about 5 years ago it turned to junk. Runny, would continually goop out of the tube upon opening, air bubbles galore, shrinks, etc. I ended up trying some of DAPs other stuff, same thing.

They really shot themselves in the foot.


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## PACman

Wildbill7145 said:


> DAP really has turned to crap. I used Alex+ since the first day I started painting. It was great for years, then about 5 years ago it turned to junk. Runny, would continually goop out of the tube upon opening, air bubbles galore, shrinks, etc. I ended up trying some of DAPs other stuff, same thing.
> 
> They really shot themselves in the foot.


Funny how that happens to products when they start selling out to the box stores isn't it. Yet there are people who still swear by Kilz and Zinsser products!


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## lilpaintchic

PACman said:


> Funny how that happens to products when they start selling out to the box stores isn't it. Yet there are people who still swear by Kilz and Zinsser products!


They're cheap and they work.


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## futtyos

*Tower Tech*



cdpainting said:


> Tower tech or big stretch both don't shrink, in fact both will expand with the gaps. Both are a bit expensive bit its all we use now. DAP is crap, always having shrinking issues.


The local BM dealer only stocks Tower Tech for the last several years. I have used it before. It takes 4-6 hours before it can be painted, but I generally can leave caulking unpainted until the next day, so I am going to give it a try. Thanks,

futtyos


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## NACE

Caulk is only flexible. Sealants have elongation and memory. The better sealants adhere to ASTM standards for elongation and memory properties. My favorite is Tower Tech II. Has excellent adhesion, elongation and memory properties, and tools very well. Since it was 1960's vintage, the building as acclimated and should receive an elastomeric acrylic urethane sealant well and easily withstand a 3/16 gap. Tower Tech also gives substantial linear feet per tube over cheaper caulks. Big Stretch works well too but doesn't have the tooling properties of TT II. Check the technical data sheets. Sealants are formulated for dissimilar surfaces. Caulks only work for similar parallel surfaces with little movement. A V shaped cavity is best but a parallel cavity is ok too.


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## futtyos

*Go to products*



PACman said:


> Funny how that happens to products when they start selling out to the box stores isn't it. Yet there are people who still swear by Kilz and Zinsser products!


I am inclined to agree with lilpaintchic, at least for 123, Gardz, Coverstain and BIN. Zinsser also makes the mold covering primer, the only one I know of at this time.

If you have better alternatives to the above I would be happy to hear, especially for Gardz. At some point I would like to try Draw-Tite.

I am not married to any one product. I was able to switch the GC I paint condos for from Kilz 2 to Zinsser 123 and we are both happy about that. If you have something noticeably better than 123 (and reasonably priced) for priming new drywall as well as skim coated plaster I am interested to know. Hopefully I can convince him. 

As many here know, I am a big fan of Gardz. I have promoted it so much to this GC that whenever I mention it he covers his ears and runs away screaming. He needs to have something white over the work before it is painted so he can see all the imperfections and be able to skim coat those before touch-up priming, then painting. It is rather difficult to see imperfections on a wall or ceiling with just a coat of Gardz. White really seems to show up all the dings and holes that were missed.

At any rate, can you recommend a non-shrinking caulk? Or should I just fill the larger gaps with Easy Sand, Durabond or light foam patch?

futtyos


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## PNW Painter

I'd follow the advice of @NACE and use Tower Tech II. It's a little more expensive, but it works very well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PACman

lilpaintchic said:


> They're cheap and they work.


Kinda I guess if you don't mind a little extra labor expense every now and again. Just money after all.


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## PACman

futtyos said:


> I am inclined to agree with lilpaintchic, at least for 123, Gardz, Coverstain and BIN. Zinsser also makes the mold covering primer, the only one I know of at this time.
> 
> If you have better alternatives to the above I would be happy to hear, especially for Gardz. At some point I would like to try Draw-Tite.
> 
> I am not married to any one product. I was able to switch the GC I paint condos for from Kilz 2 to Zinsser 123 and we are both happy about that. If you have something noticeably better than 123 (and reasonably priced) for priming new drywall as well as skim coated plaster I am interested to know. Hopefully I can convince him.
> 
> As many here know, I am a big fan of Gardz. I have promoted it so much to this GC that whenever I mention it he covers his ears and runs away screaming. He needs to have something white over the work before it is painted so he can see all the imperfections and be able to skim coat those before touch-up priming, then painting. It is rather difficult to see imperfections on a wall or ceiling with just a coat of Gardz. White really seems to show up all the dings and holes that were missed.
> 
> At any rate, can you recommend a non-shrinking caulk? Or should I just fill the larger gaps with Easy Sand, Durabond or light foam patch?
> 
> futtyos


Name one, just one consumer product that's pricing hasn't raised in the last thirty years and I'll believe you if you say these products are the same as they were. Kilz has been the same price since the late 90's. If they haven't been cheapening the resins and pigments in it there would be no way they could do that. 123 as well. I've been selling that since the mid 80's and there is absolutely no way in hell it is half the product is was then. I did an adhesion test with it in the early nineties against several other primers and it was one of the best. Now it has horrible adhesion compared to the best multi-purpose primers on the market. It is 1/3 the price of them though. So if that's what you're looking for then you are on the right track. Don't get me started on coverstain. They've been changing that product every 8-9 months for 4 years now as close as I can tell from my data sheet collection.


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## Wildbill7145

PACman said:


> Don't get me started on coverstain. They've been changing that product every 8-9 months for 4 years now as close as I can tell from my data sheet collection.


So, why'd you use it on your plywood? 123 has gone up in price from $25/gal to $35 since I started using it. I know you've said it many times that it's not as good as it used to be, but I swear I haven't noticed a difference whatsoever in 13yrs.


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## futtyos

*What do you recommend?*



PACman said:


> Name one, just one consumer product that's pricing hasn't raised in the last thirty years and I'll believe you if you say these products are the same as they were. Kilz has been the same price since the late 90's. If they haven't been cheapening the resins and pigments in it there would be no way they could do that. 123 as well. I've been selling that since the mid 80's and there is absolutely no way in hell it is half the product is was then. I did an adhesion test with it in the early nineties against several other primers and it was one of the best. Now it has horrible adhesion compared to the best multi-purpose primers on the market. It is 1/3 the price of them though. So if that's what you're looking for then you are on the right track. Don't get me started on coverstain. They've been changing that product every 8-9 months for 4 years now as close as I can tell from my data sheet collection.


PACman, I am not trying to argue with you. I am just asking what you would recommend over the products I mentioned. I am not asking you to defend yourself, I am asking you to sell me. Your opinion is valued here, at least by me.

futtyos


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## RH

NACE said:


> Caulk is only flexible. Sealants have elongation and memory. The better sealants adhere to ASTM standards for elongation and memory properties. My favorite is Tower Tech II. Has excellent adhesion, elongation and memory properties, and tools very well. Since it was 1960's vintage, the building as acclimated and should receive an elastomeric acrylic urethane sealant well and easily withstand a 3/16 gap. Tower Tech also gives substantial linear feet per tube over cheaper caulks. Big Stretch works well too but doesn't have the tooling properties of TT II. Check the technical data sheets. Sealants are formulated for dissimilar surfaces. Caulks only work for similar parallel surfaces with little movement. A V shaped cavity is best but a parallel cavity is ok too.


Tower tech II has been my full time caulk for about the last five years or so. Really good product IMO - never had a failure or problem yet with the stuff. Fairly reasonabible cost wise too.


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## SemiproJohn

RH said:


> Tower tech II has been my full time caulk for about the last five years or so. Really good product IMO - never had a failure or problem yet with the stuff. Fairly reasonabible cost wise too.


I've been using Tower Tech II for the last couple of months and love it. I used to stick with Alex quick dry, and still do for minor interior caulking (where a very thin bead will do the trick so I can get to painting quickly), but the Tower Tech is so much better. No, it does not dry quickly, but it is worth the wait. 

This might sound stupid, but any caulking that washes off my hands easily is one I question, such as the Alex products. The Tower Tech II takes some real effort to get off my skin.


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## Wildbill7145

SemiproJohn said:


> I've been using Tower Tech II for the last couple of months and love it. I used to stick with Alex quick dry, and still do for minor interior caulking, but the Tower Tech is so much better. No, it does not dry quickly, but it is worth the wait.
> 
> This might sound stupid, but any caulking that washes off my hands easily is one I question, such as the Alex products. The Tower Tech II takes some real effort to get off my skin.


Yet another product I can't get around here. Poop.

That's not stupid at all John. That's pretty much how I'd gauge everything in the paint industry. If you've cleaned your brushes and scrubbed your hands and the stuff didn't come off, it's pretty good. Had a shower and scrubbed your hands some more and it still won't come off, it's damned good. If you've eaten, done the dishes and scrubbed more and it's still there.... You've got a winner.

Only stuff that I've ever used that made it stage 3 was P&L super slow drying oil primer. That stuff was incredible. But not much fun.


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## Tonyg

PACman said:


> Funny how that happens to products when they start selling out to the box stores isn't it. Yet there are people who still swear by Kilz and Zinsser products!


So, you're saying that Zinnser is comparable to Kilz? Since when?


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## Tonyg

futtyos said:


> I paint hi rise condos a few times a year in Chicago. Built in 1960, some of the walls are concrete. As such, sometimes the baseboards are not able to be secured close enough to the wall and there sometimes is up to a 3/16" gap. Is anyone here familiar with any caulk that does not shrink a lot or should I just plan on caulking twice where the gaps show shrinkage? Maybe fill the larger gaps with the light foam spackle first, then caulk?
> 
> futtyos



A good elastomeric is the only thing I will use. Used the Tower Tech but it's now been replaced locally for the Allpro label. Either way I will usually just caulk twice or if 1/4 in or more use backer rod.


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## DeanV

Thanks @NACE for his post. I have been using the Tower Tech stuff since White Lightening was bought by SW. Mainly the Tech II stuff and the fast dry Accelerator (I like how it tools for interior trim). 

Now that a local store carries the colors of Tech II it is all we use outside.


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## Showtime

A good rule of the thumb is to "work smarter not harder". I use Sherwin-Williams 850A Acrylic Latex Caulk from baseboards to gaps where carports meet siding. At times I see 1/2 inch gaps I just cut off a mean sized tip and will drop a whole tube if needed. Been doing it for years. With Oklahoma City having 4 seasons and many tremors do to fracking I have not had 1 complaint.


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## Eagle Cap Painter

Showtime said:


> A good rule of the thumb is to "work smarter not harder". I use Sherwin-Williams 850A Acrylic Latex Caulk from baseboards to gaps where carports meet siding. At times I see 1/2 inch gaps I just cut off a mean sized tip and will drop a whole tube if needed. Been doing it for years. With Oklahoma City having 4 seasons and many tremors do to fracking I have not had 1 complaint.


This sounds like cutting corners, not working smarter. What if they're not complaining because they're hiring someone else?


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## Jmayspaint

Every caulk shrinks. I use backer rod if the crack is big and caulk twice if necessary. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PNW Painter

@Showtime I'm all for working smarter, not harder. Cutting a huge hole in the tip might get the job done faster, but it's not the correct way to fill a large gap. 

If you read the data sheet for 850A it's says gaps should be no more than 1/2" wide or deep. It also says that it's best used in areas of low joint movement and is commonly used for interior applications. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic

I do the same thing only with quick dry caulk. Cut a huge hole, load it up and use it as backer for a finish bead. Sometimes in less than ideal situations, ya gotta use less than ideal methods.thats been my experience anyway....the alternative is to install the base better....maybe a better style of base or a better application method? Don't know, can't see the project.
"A little caulk, a little paint, makes a Carpenter what he ain't!"


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## RH

lilpaintchic said:


> I do the same thing only with quick dry caulk. Cut a huge hole, load it up and use it as backer for a finish bead. Sometimes in less than ideal situations, ya gotta use less than ideal methods.thats been my experience anyway....the alternative is to install the base better....maybe a better style of base or a better application method? Don't know, can't see the project.
> "A little caulk, a little paint, makes a Carpenter what he ain't!"


Having just installed some new base in a bathroom (replacing mdf trim with real wood) for a customer, I have to say it may not always be the finish carpenter's fault. When the walls and their corners are messed up due to poor framing or sheetrock work (or both) it's pretty tough to lay down a decent baseboard job without the assist of caulk.


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## Wildbill7145

RH said:


> Having just installed some new base in a bathroom (replacing mdf trim with real wood) for a customer, I have to say it may not always be the finish carpenter's fault. When the walls and their corners are messed up due to poor framing or sheetrock work (or both) it's pretty tough to lay down a decent baseboard job without the assist of caulk.


Wonky walls are one reason why sometimes mdf isn't such a bad choice. Nice and bendy. That being said, in the corners it won't really matter. Nothing but a lot of caulking is gonna make that look good. At the end of the day, it's still gonna be obvious but at least it looks better.


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## RH

Wildbill7145 said:


> Wonky walls are one reason why sometimes mdf isn't such a bad choice. Nice and bendy. That being said, in the corners it won't really matter. Nothing but a lot of caulking is gonna make that look good. At the end of the day, it's still gonna be obvious but at least it looks better.


Yeah, except in bathrooms where tubs and showers are present. I think it should be code that mdf can't be used as base in those rooms. Maybe even include utility rooms as well.

In the case of the project I'm doing the floors were recently replaced and the floor installers removed all the base but even though it was obviously swollen and paint was chipping off, they simply put it back on without at least discussing some options (ex. - "Should we leave it off so you can get someone to replace it with new stock? We have the names of several guys who can do that for you.") with the HO. Of course, once I painted the walls the deteriorating trim stuck out even more. So, off it came and new wood (well, finger jointed preprimed material - but still better than mdf) base was installed.


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## lilpaintchic

RH said:


> Having just installed some new base in a bathroom (replacing mdf trim with real wood) for a customer, I have to say it may not always be the finish carpenter's fault. When the walls and their corners are messed up due to poor framing or sheetrock work (or both) it's pretty tough to lay down a decent baseboard job without the assist of caulk.


Oh, believe me, I know...I just blame the concrete guys. It's always their fault...if they'd just pour a level foundation..jk.


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## chrisn

RH said:


> Yeah, except in bathrooms where tubs and showers are present. I think it should be code that mdf can't be used as base in those rooms. Maybe even include utility rooms as well.
> 
> In the case of the project I'm doing the floors were recently replaced and the floor installers removed all the base but even though it was obviously swollen and paint was chipping off, they simply put it back on without at least discussing some options (ex. - "Should we leave it off so you can get someone to replace it with new stock? We have the names of several guys who can do that for you.") with the HO. Of course, once I painted the walls the deteriorating trim stuck out even more. So, off it came and new wood (well, finger jointed preprimed material - but still better than mdf) base was installed.


 
Not by much


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## RH

chrisn said:


> Not by much


I've never been much of a fan of finger jointed trim either but I have to say that this recent batch I worked with was pretty darned good. It was decently primed (to the point that none of the joints were visable, it sanded nicely, took my paint well, and withstood cutting and nailing without any issues. And hopefully it won't have any more problems with exposure to moisture than non-jointed wood trim would.


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## chrisn

RH said:


> I've never been much of a fan of finger jointed trim either but I have to say that this recent batch I worked with was pretty darned good. It was decently primed (to the point that none of the joints were visable, it sanded nicely, took my paint well, and withstood cutting and nailing without any issues. And hopefully it won't have any more problems with exposure to moisture than non-jointed wood trim would.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I was going to say, all is well till it gets wet:whistling2:


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## Showtime

Eagle Cap Painter said:


> This sounds like cutting corners, not working smarter. What if they're not complaining because they're hiring someone else?


How is a freebie cutting corners :blink:


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## Showtime

PNW Painter said:


> @Showtime I'm all for working smarter, not harder. Cutting a huge hole in the tip might get the job done faster, but it's not the correct way to fill a large gap.
> 
> If you read the data sheet for 850A it's says gaps should be no more than 1/2" wide or deep. It also says that it's best used in areas of low joint movement and is commonly used for interior applications.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's a data sheet and when did I mentioned using it in gaps >1/2"'s :whistling2: Acrylic Latex is used for both indoor and outdoor my man. Does it say that in the "data sheet". If not than Sherwin Williams is wrong and I'm right lol. Anyways, My point is that's its very flexible and I have not had any complaints.

It's important at the initial walk though to "up-sale" by recommending the most efficient and professional way to do something. Of course cutting a piece of material to fit in a gap would be mentioned at the initial walk through. I will simply ask if they would like me to fill it with caulking as a freebie. This approach doesn't get proposed on a bid and is not charged because it voids their 2 Year Warranty. Your missing the whole fact here.


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## Jmayspaint

Showtime said:


> What's a data sheet and when did I mentioned using it in gaps >1/2"'s :whistling2: Acrylic Latex is used for both indoor and outdoor my man. Does it say that in the "data sheet". If not than Sherwin Williams is wrong and I'm right lol. Anyways, My point is that's its very flexible and I have not had any complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> It's important at the initial walk though to "up-sale" by recommending the most efficient and professional way to do something. Of course cutting a piece of material to fit in a gap would be mentioned at the initial walk through. I will simply ask if they would like me to fill it with caulking as a freebie. This approach doesn't get proposed on a bid and is not charged because it voids their 2 Year Warranty. Your missing the whole fact here.




What's a data sheet? 

Might want to figure that one out before claiming to be a professional coatings applicator. 

The data sheet for the 850a can be found here; 

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&prodno=151-8273&doctype=PDS&lang=E



Interesting that you wouldn't include caulking gaps between trim and walls in your scope of work, but rather include it as a "freebie". 

How often do your clients decline that offer and decide the gaps at the top of the base don't need caulked? 


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## Eagle Cap Painter

Is it really free if it costs the customer a 2-year warranty?


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## RH

chrisn said:


> RH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never been much of a fan of finger jointed trim either but I have to say that this recent batch I worked with was pretty darned good. It was decently primed (to the point that none of the joints were visable, it sanded nicely, took my paint well, and withstood cutting and nailing without any issues. And hopefully it won't have any more problems with exposure to moisture than non-jointed wood trim would.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I was going to say, all is well till it gets wet:whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris, have you actually had issues with finger joined material swelling on you? (Not asking this in a confrontational manner - I really want to know what your expereinces with it have been.)
> 
> Installing trim is not exactly my area of expertise but in the cas of this recent job it was pretty straight forward. A although MDF in bathrooms is definitely a no-no in my book, the finger jointed stock I have access to through my local lumber yard seems to be pretty good material. I just figured that since it's real wood then moisture wouldn't be an issue. But, perhaps I am way off base on this (no pun intended).
Click to expand...


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## chrisn

RH said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chris, have you actually had issues with finger joined material swelling on you? (Not asking this in a confrontational manner - I really want to know what your expereinces with it have been.)
> 
> Installing trim is not exactly my area of expertise but in the cas of this recent job it was pretty straight forward. A although MDF in bathrooms is definitely a no-no in my book, the finger jointed stock I have access to through my local lumber yard seems to be pretty good material. I just figured that since it's real wood then moisture wouldn't be an issue. But, perhaps I am way off base on this (no pun intended).
> 
> 
> 
> Only on exteriors, can's say I have ever seen it inside.
Click to expand...


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## loaded brush

futtyos said:


> The local BM dealer only stocks Tower Tech for the last several years. I have used it before. It takes 4-6 hours before it can be painted, but I generally can leave caulking unpainted until the next day, so I am going to give it a try. Thanks,
> 
> futtyos


Sounds like a perfect mate for Advance.


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