# Changing the Painting Field & Trades Forever...



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I have been speaking to some of the builders I work with and we all seem to agree on one thing, this economic meltdown is going to change the trades permanently. 

A few years back we all got fat. Work was plentiful, if you missed one estimate, it was ok because the next one was bigger and better. Pricing also got out of control. Don't get me wrong, I want to make as much as humanly possible but even as late as this summer I wasn't seeing low balls, I was seeing high-balls. Painters charging $750 for a bedroom repaint (walls only). I also watched as builders charged a recent client of mine $13500 for a bedroom remodel. All they did was replace a couple of doors and put hardwood floors in. The fact is, people these days are starting to look at their proposals a lot more carefully. People aren't paying what they used to for non-necessities and unfortunately, in our field, often times customers are buying because they want to, not because they need to.

We ran a special this past week. $199 to paint any room in your home up to 200 sq ft. The deal was no dark colors, you prepare the room yourself, and pay for the paint, and we'll come in, throw two coats on the wall and leave. Our phone rang off the hook. I booked 18 jobs in 4 days. Not bad considering our phone hadn't rang for 2 weeks prior to this. Now, I won't be paying any employees to do these jobs for me. I'll do 2 rooms a day, make $400 per day in labor. I have done 4 of these jobs thus far. This summer I was making way more money than this. However, if I hadn't run the sale, I would have had a week off. Yes, we're that slow. And while some of you may run very strong businesses and not be feeling the effects, I also suspect that many of you are also feeling the pinch.

I had a local painter call me and ask me to raise my prices. HA! I told him he should lower his or be quiet. He then told me that he would never even consider painting a room for that price. Well, guess what, while I'm booked up for two extra weeks, he's sitting at home contemplating his next move. I know because I drive past his house every morning. So , while I am making my $400 a day, he is making $0. 

The point is this: We may hate those lowballers but guess what, they're keeping busy. It's not too hard to explain why some unlicensed idiot isn't as good of a painter as you are. And I am not advocating charging $400 to do an entire interior. But why not take advantage of what people are currently shopping for - GREAT DEALS. I am not too good to work for $400 per day. It pays the bills during these hard times. And I'll be honest, I would work for half of that if that's what it took to make it through the tough winter still in business and not working for someone else.

This summer I rarely touched a brush. I spent my time growing my business and letting others do the dirty work. Now that times are slow, if I have to work harder for a little less I will. You aren't just making a little extra money, you are growing your client base. And guess what, when the economy gets itself back on track, those same clients will be calling you because you did such a great job at such a reasonable rate.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

:whistling2:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Well it sounds like you have a plan.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

If you do the math, you charged about where it should be for what you did. No prep and they buy the paint makes it look like they are getting a great deal but they are really getting a fair deal. A win win in my book. $400 a day = $100,000 a year not too shabby.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

daren said:


> If you do the math, you charged about where it should be for what you did. No prep and they buy the paint makes it look like they are getting a great deal but they are really getting a fair deal. A win win in my book. $400 a day = $100,000 a year not too shabby.


 
Thats right! customers like to do some things themselves so let the prep and buy the paint and pay you to do what you do best, (cut a damn straight line....without tape). I used to never accept a job where the customer bought the paint but I am now. guess what my last few jobs have ended up more profitable (although lower total contract price, naturally). We have to change our ways to remain viable. Good luck to all.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

So I hope you advise the homeowner and know the colors and finishes they are going to hand you when you walk through the door to do what you do best. Don't forget, the homeowner doesnt know product like you. And when you do what you do best with bad product, you dont look your best. 

Worse case: "He did an ok job, and at least he didnt cost much. He told me to buy paint and then complained about what I bought" 

Best case: "He told me what paint to get, which was no problem, and then he did a great job."

Pinnacle raises a good point about marketing. There is a big difference between how the lowballer approaches that situation and how a pro does. The biggest thing is to not gain the long term reputation as the $200 guy who does a great job. In a couple of years no one will want to be that guy anymore. But if you can do it profitably and pay the bills in the dead of winter, thats smart. 

Some customers ask if they can pick up the paint. Not because they are cheap, but because they are appreciative and want to help out, make things more convenient for you. I have certain customers who do this and it works out great. One this week who brings us Aura and Mythic. I find that we typically make more money on our labor than on our materials.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

valid point Big V. You should try to give them imput as to product selection however you should learn to use things outside your norm so that you are ready in case they don't want to buy aura or whatever your poison. we recently used behr for the first time(customer purchase), on an interior job--i was expecting the worst but was somewhat surprised in the quality. Now its not a top of the line Benny or SW but it covered well and left an even finish. I guess the best way to put it was that its not the nightmare that professionals make it. Now feel free to bash me but be gentle.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I love Behr paint, its competitively priced, and close to my trailer park.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I had a local painter call me and ask me to raise my prices. HA! I told him he should lower his or be quiet.


Now that's pretty funny.

Walls only with basic prep & under 500 sqft I can have done before lunch. That blue room I posted the other day was 15x15 with an accent wall. Took me around 3 hours to get in, set up, apply 2 coats, clean up, and leave. Nothing sloppy all looked great.

So I think it's a good deal so long as you can knock out 2 a day. Not only that, you're probably going to get some who want more done than is included in your deal which you can charge normal rate for. Also getting your foot in the door & getting your name around.

Now that I think about it, for a small company in the winter, even if you only do one day you're still doing great compared to many out there & atleast keeping your bills paid.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Yes this is some good money compared to my old job.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

high fibre said:


> Yes this is some good money compared to my old job.


May I ask what your old job was? :whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JNLP said:


> May I ask what your old job was? :whistling2:


Please, not another diesel fitter.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Please, not another diesel fitter.


I have a feeling it'll be better than that one. :yes:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

How odd. I actually was a diesel fitter.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

It has been a tough stretch in the diesel fitter field.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

You guys are freaking me out, how did you know that?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We know people.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Nonetheless, $200 a day is really good money. Especially if you are just painting a room in about 2-3 hours and not running for paint and putting the room back together. I dont blame the laid off guys for becoming painters.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Lots of people transition into painting, when they have no other options. The diesel fitters, historically, have had the hardest time. When they discover paint strainers, they are all done.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I have used those strainers on my head as a spraysock too.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

This is spooky, like you have been watching me.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

high fibre said:


> This is spooky, like you have been watching me.


He has.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

hey Pin, what did you advertise that special in?? how many house did you hit??

thanks
dave mac


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

And what did the ad cost, what size was it, and how long did you run it?

I am going to do this.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I wish I could get $200 a room. That would be great,


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i do paint walls only, one coat in a 12x12 bedrrom for $200 labor. (low sheen neutral, no repairs)

this 12x12 room is a basic unit 

when i estimate larger repaints, i use this basic unit for my take off.

i have $200 units, and $30 units.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)




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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

a $30 unit would be one door side

one jamb

the case around a door

the case around a window

a double hung

all of these would be similar in size, and one coat.

$30 for the prep work also.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

so in that 12x12 typical bedroom i could count these units:

base: 2 units
2 bifolds: 4 units
closet case: 1 unit
inside closet case: 1 unit
closet shelves(2) : 2 units
2 windows: 2 units
inside of room door: 1 unit
door case: 1 unit
1/2 jamb: 1 unit

15 units of similar size/scopex $30= $450 to one coat these items. if they are in good condition.

walls one coat: 200
15 units: 450

totals 650 labor to one coat a very basic rooms trim and walls.

you could use whatever numbers you please.

done in one day.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

it has worked very well for me for 20 years. nice lifestyle, vacations, toys.

when people say you need to know your numbers, they really mean YOUR numbers.

i fly through my interior estimates.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i learned this from another painter much older than myself, and then spent some time reading about doing take-offs. i dont measure much.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> this is a perfect example of bad behavior on a forum. uncalled for, and should not be tolerated. please clean this up.


Take off your wig johnnyboy


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

high fibre will be at a 1000 posts by tomorrow morning....hes talking to himself!!!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

no talking to myself,,,just interested in this topic.

a lot of painters read this, and could help them.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

you make a goodpoint dude but those low ballers are still ruining the paint industry . but like you said everybody needs to make some kind of money


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

high,

I thought you wanted to make a fresh start?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

you're looking just like


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

your old self


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)




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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

darch, i have no idea what you mean.

read this thread, and you will see i am offering up some advice, and not hijacking a thread, or getting silly.

this is the way i estimate, and these are some real numbers.

and i have seen others post several posts in a row.

i take offense at the whole burmashave, inside joke thing also. yes, i am an aspiring sign painter. so what?


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I lol'd at this thread  thanks! and some good talk here too


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

yes, good stuff here.

no leg pulling or creepieness.

$30 can add up quick.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

high fibre said:


> yes, i am an aspiring sign painter. so what?


Love it. :thumbup:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok, Dave Mac, here's the low down, down low, no doubt:

I went to 3000doorhangers.com. They have a deal where you order 3000 2 color door hangers for $179. They do the proof for you and while these aren't the highest quality hangers in the world, I was very impressed with the design and the quality of the hanger was pretty good. 

I paid one of my summer assistants $8p/h to hang them all around town. All in all, I got 3000 door hangers hung in areas I determined the deal would be well received for about $400 total - Hangers & Labor.

Then I put an ad in the local paper for $20 per week (business card sized). All together I'll spend $500 on advertising and I have already made it back plus a bit more.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Ok, Dave Mac, here's the low down, down low, no doubt:
> 
> I went to 3000doorhangers.com. They have a deal where you order 3000 2 color door hangers for $179. They do the proof for you and while these aren't the highest quality hangers in the world, I was very impressed with the design and the quality of the hanger was pretty good.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: a man of action, ready to take control, I like it. thankd for sharing.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

*I'm just trying*

to run all of the other painters out of town


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

That's cool :thumbsup:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

However I don't mind computation.. As long as there not a lowballing hack. I like walking into a local paint store and talking to my competors. I have a great deal of respect for most of them.


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## Thomas Painting (Aug 11, 2008)

So you are two coating a 12x12 room in 2-3 hrs? Whats this a wet on wet finish? Doesn't the paint need to dry a bit. I am not saying it CANT be done ...but SHOULD it be done that quickly? Maybe a flat but a satin really wont set up that quick.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Thomas Painting said:


> So you are two coating a 12x12 room in 2-3 hrs? Whats this a wet on wet finish? Doesn't the paint need to dry a bit. I am not saying it CANT be done ...but SHOULD it be done that quickly? Maybe a flat but a satin really wont set up that quick.


Good point. This pricing probably doesnt allow for much callback absorption. If one finds oneself saying/thinking: "well, what did you expect for $200?" then it might be time to rethink the strategy. At any price, people still feel like they hired a professional paint company and will expect a basic industry standard for quality and product spec understanding.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> At any price, people still feel like they hired a professional paint company and will expect a basic industry standard for quality and product spec understanding.


Great point! I see other contractors get themselves in a pinch when they took on a contractoral job. They get the job with there low prices and think they don't have to live up to the contract. When on the other hand they accepted the scope of work at their price. :jester:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

*What?*

You wait 3 hours to recoat? I don't care what sheen it is, any interior latex I use can easily be dried in 2 hours max with a ceiling fan running. And I told you it takes me 4 hours per room anyway. With these jobs I cut, roll, cut, roll so I am not waiting long for anything to dry.

Quality is top notch. Customers are explained in detail what they are getting. The only place quality may skimp is the paint if the customer tries to save a buck. I tell them what they should buy, they make the final decision. yes, I have run into some Behr buyers. I really don't care though. Paint is paint. I won't buy Behr because I don't like it that much but it takes me no longer to paint with it than to paint with PPG.

Can you guys really say that it takes you a full 8 hour day to repaint a 12x12 walls only?


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't ever skimp no matter what the price, I give it my all.

I think of each and every client equally whether they are paying $30,000 or $200. Do the absolute best job you can and they will recommend you. I get more clients from a lady I painted 2 doors for than I do from a guy who paid $15000 to have his house stained.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I don't ever skimp no matter what the price, I give it my all.
> 
> I think of each and every client equally whether they are paying $30,000 or $200. Do the absolute best job you can and they will recommend you. I get more clients from a lady I painted 2 doors for than I do from a guy who paid $15000 to have his house stained.


:thumbup:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

I do 1 wall at a time (cut & roll). By the time I get done with the room, the first wall is usually always ready to get another coat. Sometimes depending on the temp it might take a little longer though. 2 coats on the walls only in 4 hours is pretty easily done though without skimpimg on quality.

If those times hurt your feelings, don't go doing new construction or you'll cry. :laughing:


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## Thomas Painting (Aug 11, 2008)

I've done enough new construction and have never seen walls repainted with 2 hours. At least not by me.

I have no problem with the amount of time listed... thats fine. I would rather see 1st coat ... then maybe lunch .. then final coat. But if you guys like painting over tacky paint and dragging the first coat ... knock yourselves out.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This is what happens when inexperienced contractors under price jobs. They will look to cut every corner possible to save money. It can be by saving 4 bucks per gallon of paint or by shorting the job the neccessary hours needed to complete the job correctly. I welcome all hacks to paint as many rooms as they can for $200. More business for me in the long run. It makes it easy for the customer to tell the difference between a real contractor and a fly by nighter. I have seen many try to re-invent the wheel and fail.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Thomas Painting said:


> I've done enough new construction and have never seen walls repainted with 2 hours. At least not by me.
> 
> I have no problem with the amount of time listed... thats fine. I would rather see 1st coat ... then maybe lunch .. then final coat. But if you guys like painting over tacky paint and dragging the first coat ... knock yourselves out.


I guess it depends on the builder, but around here they hammer them out twice as fast. Not saying it's proper (actually very far from it), was just saying it's possible.

Way I do it, like I said as long as the temp is fine it really wouldn't make a difference if I waited another 2 minutes or two hours. The paint is dry & flows nice & easy. Sometimes there are exceptions, but I'm talking about the average room with average paint in average conditions. :thumbup:

Basically to cut & roll a wall by yourself it's going to take you about a half hour. If you do one wall at a time, by the time you do the other 3 walls your first wall has been drying for an hour and a half. Unless it's cold in there, that crap should be dry.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree with Pinnacle and JNLP, working by yourself, it is easy to work your way around a room, cut and roll one wall at time and have two coats done in 4 hours for a modest size bedroom. If there are repairs beyond filling nail holes, then it will take more time. 

I obviously need to be pushing the pricing higher though, given the amount of surprise some members here seem to have at painting a room for $200 labor only. I can see the surprise if it is about only doing one room at a time forever and ever, but if you can crank out 2 rooms and $400 for labor costs each day, I could do just fine on that.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Thomas Painting said:


> I've done enough new construction and have never seen walls repainted with 2 hours. At least not by me.
> 
> I have no problem with the amount of time listed... thats fine. I would rather see 1st coat ... then maybe lunch .. then final coat. But if you guys like painting over tacky paint and dragging the first coat ... knock yourselves out.


Think about this for a second. "New Construction". You spray walls and ceilings (heavy) and backroll. You do a whole house like this.Thats a ton of moisture in the air.

 A repaint. Cut in an average room with todays decent latex. By the time you finish cut in, where you started is dry or close to it. You have heat or air cond running. You have carpets and/or drops on the floor. There are plenty of things to help rid the house of moisture while you paint. 

Maybe its me, but most latex paint is dry to the touch in an hour. (res re-paint) So yeah, I re-coat twice in a few hours. 

Need to consider the differences in the scope of work.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

use paints with a quick recoat time, and use a low sheen neutral for these prices.

deep tone? upcharge

eggeshell? upcharge

wall repairs? upcharge


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

high fibre said:


> use paints with a quick recoat time, and use a low sheen neutral for these prices.
> 
> deep tone? upcharge
> 
> ...


I agree on the upsell.. just make sure your original idea is clearly written out... how about the HO doing crappy prep and they don't want the upsell??? now your painting walls that will look like shiit and your names on it.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

yes, the situation would dictate.


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## Ghoul (Jun 2, 2008)

I came across this company's site today and it reminded me of this thread. http://www.chismbrothers.com/
*

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Inside or Out
 
*Our Painter for a Day can:*


Paint a Guest Bathroom or Kitchen
Paint or Stain your Entry Door
Touch up your Baseboards
Paint Exterior Trim and more
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Get to know us by hiring us for a small project! Our Painter For a Day can do just about anything like: painting a bedroom, refinishing thresholds, touching up your baseboards, removing dirt and smudges from your walls, exterior touch ups, entry doors and more.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Paint a Guest Bathroom or Kitchen 

I would like to see them paint most ANY kitchen I see in a day! I have seen some guest bathrooms that 3 guys would'nt get done in a day


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## Art Works Interiors (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm beginning to wonder if airless isn;t your friend.

The prep time is a b***h, but you don't have to do ANYthing to keep the original wall texture other than hit that button after everything masked.:blink:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I usually cut all, roll out all walls, wait a bit, clean up/do another room then come back and cut all and roll again.. works and looks good with the time in between :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

*What would Ken Fenner say?*

I'm a realist. I know its hard to turn down even a hundred dollars when you are sitting home doing nothing at all. Its best to look at the big picture. Once you take that first $100 job it becomes that much easier to take **** jobs in the future. You broke your lowballer cherry. Its a hard habit to break and it will bankrupt you. I have analyzed my numbers over the past few years and matched to ultimate efficiency models and it is not worth turning the key on a truck for less than $350. There is a common misconception that it costs a guy like me whom uses employees more to do a job than it does an owner/operator. That's positively wrong. My overhead is much less per job than one man shows merely because I can do more volume. 

I'm not telling you not to take it. You make the decision. If a person starts a business without reserve capital to get them through the first couple of years where you are lucky to make any profit, thats the decision they made and they have to live with the consequences. Hopefully they can scrape by until the light turns on and they can get out of the rut they may find themselves in.

This is the reality check of the guys that boast making $100 per hour plus on a job. That isn't squat when you factor rain days, short seasons, trying to market, sell and do the work. It just doesn't work. I really don't know how I can say it clearer. *- Ken Fenner*


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

It amazes me that there are so many buisness owners out there that still have a employee mindset. They sit there and think what they are going to do tomarrow. While the employer mindset is what will they be doing 3,4,6 months from now. BIG DEFERENCE while the employee mindset is makeing $200 deals they will still be makeing $200 deals 3 months from now. The employers mindset is planning and landing jobs for the next 3 months while manageing the jobs they got by planning 3 months prior.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm a realist. I know its hard to turn down even a hundred dollars when you are sitting home doing nothing at all. Its best to look at the big picture. Once you take that first $100 job it becomes that much easier to take **** jobs in the future. You broke your lowballer cherry. Its a hard habit to break and it will bankrupt you. I have analyzed my numbers over the past few years and matched to ultimate efficiency models and it is not worth turning the key on a truck for less than $350. There is a common misconception that it costs a guy like me whom uses employees more to do a job than it does an owner/operator. That's positively wrong. My overhead is much less per job than one man shows merely because I can do more volume.
> 
> I'm not telling you not to take it. You make the decision. If a person starts a business without reserve capital to get them through the first couple of years where you are lucky to make any profit, thats the decision they made and they have to live with the consequences. Hopefully they can scrape by until the light turns on and they can get out of the rut they may find themselves in.
> 
> This is the reality check of the guys that boast making $100 per hour plus on a job. That isn't squat when you factor rain days, short seasons, trying to market, sell and do the work. It just doesn't work. I really don't know how I can say it clearer. *- Ken Fenner*


Scott - I think the world of Ken Fenner, and have taken much of his advice on how to run my business - and have had much success. But then again I don't see what's wrong with engineering a different service for different types of clients. A contract is a contract - and if you state you'll paint over the cob-webs if the owner has cleaned it off - then that's precisely what you do! This isn't so much a lowballer mentality - as trying to find budget minded clients willing to do some of the sweat equity. 

I'll tell ya - I have a 10k + exterior paint job I did back in May of '07 - and I wish I could take it back and substitute doing these jobs twice a day. Think of the lack of overhead not having to come and estimate - you just arrive and paint and leave. In 20 days - you can make $8,000 off your own back alone! I don't know any guys even with 3-4 man crews making that kind of money now. I've done beautiful $900 dollar bedroom repaints with materials included that's taken me 2-1/2 days. And that's a hard sale! I'd gladly give those away for 3 days of these jobs at $1,200 with no materials involved!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Think of the lack of overhead not having to come and estimate - you just arrive and paint and leave.
> 
> _I'm very surprised to hear that you could get your mind in that place, as I know from alot of your posts that you are into craft._
> 
> ...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I thank Pinnacle for thinking outside the box! He came up with a model that works for a small (1-2) man outfit.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If your a one man show looking to pay the bills and a couple of hundred a will do that, then go for it. If you have asperations of owning a real company with employees and equity then those rates will not be good enough.

It doesnt matter what the dollar amount of the job in the end if you did not bid it correctly. If you make more at $200 a day than a bid you had for 10k I sugest you go find a job for $25 bucks an hour.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

You ain't finding a job for $25 an hour around here. It's no secret that I commute an hour into prime residential areas to do my business. Work is slowing down. I can keep my help and myself busy for now. 

What about Jan/Feb? Have one job right now. Think it is something worth looking into. 

Most of you guys are being short sighted. You look just at the price. $200.00 and you get snooty because it's not enough. 

Pin's model offers a painter the chance to earn a realistic $75,000 to $100,000 a year. Do you pay your guys that much? How many of us small outfits even make that much? That's above average per household income nationwide.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> Most of you guys are being short sighted. You look just at the price. $200.00 and you get snooty because it's not enough.


BB

The $200 model is a band aid. For some people a band aid is just right. Its just that if you claim this to be a model that will revolutionize the paint industry, its not. Its been done in every trade. The Ken Fenner piece I posted was from last year in response to a pressure washer who was doing $99 jobs.  Its not a good long term strategy, and if you over use it in the short term, it becomes you in the long term. That seems to be the history of that concept. As I said above, and I do believe this, Pinnacle can use it correctly and benefit from it. It is just kind of important to our trade that any lurkers who have been thinking about starting a paint business (and lets face it, who isnt thinking about starting a paint business?) sees this $200 model as the holy grail. At that point, in the consumers mind, a paint job should cost around $200. I really believe that this would not make for a practical long term strategy.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> I thank Pinnacle for thinking outside the box! He came up with a model that works for a small (1-2) man outfit.


yes, well said. 

know YOUR numbers,,,dont care about other peoples numbers.

ive seen several threads on this forum where a newbie asks about pricing.

then the flaming begins.

the salty guys say "you need to know your numbers"

when they post real numbers that work for them, they are ridiculed.

this is suspect.

my hat goes off to anyone that makes this business work for THEM.

i encourage people to compete, and get the maximum ammount per contract you can muster.

this is the free market at work.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> You ain't finding a job for $25 an hour around here. It's no secret that I commute an hour into prime residential areas to do my business. Work is slowing down. I can keep my help and myself busy for now.
> 
> What about Jan/Feb? Have one job right now. Think it is something worth looking into.
> 
> ...


It's not about being snooty. It's about running a business. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from but if you average 1 job a day (5 day week, 52 weeks a year) that is $52,000 before taxes and overhead. That also means you are booking 260 jobs a year. Thats alot of marketing for $200.00 per job.

And it's not a model. It's a emergency tactic to keep cash flowing in bad times that I have NO probeblem with at all...... as long as you realize it for the short term.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i guess someone could assume thats all pinnacle would do for the year (paint $200 rooms) but that probably isnt the case.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> It's not about being snooty. It's about running a business. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from but if you average 1 job a day (5 day week, 52 weeks a year) that is $52,000 before taxes and overhead. That also means you are booking 260 jobs a year. Thats alot of marketing for $200.00 per job.
> 
> And it's not a model. It's a emergency tactic to keep cash flowing in bad times that I have NO probeblem with at all...... as long as you realize it for the short term.


I am figuring 1 1/2-2 a day. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe what I do, you believe what you do. Won't hold it against you.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> i guess someone could assume thats all pinnacle would do for the year (paint $200 rooms) but that probably isnt the case.


This is likely just one of many balls Pinnacle will juggle for the year.


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## Gnome34 (Oct 23, 2008)

I dont think theres anything wrong with Pinnacles idea at all, and heres why. It is clearly working for him and satisfying his needs. That was the goal. Apparently for many of you it would not satisfy your needs or desires. Thats fine, its a good thing you realize that before you try it. I really dont see why people are getting their feathers ruffled over this one. He's making money instead of sitting at home...I dont have any reason at all to complain about that. Everyone knows this is a slow time of year, and thinking ahead or not I'd still rather be doing something other than twiddling thumbs. I had a customer back out on me(actually postpone work until next month) 2 days before i was supossed to paint. I didnt have any other customers to fill that gap so I get a long break for thanksgiving! if someone came up and asked me to paint a bedroom or two for $200 a pop can you guess what my reaction would be right now?

To each his own and as long as we provide for ourselves I dont see why MY thoughts about MY business should cause me to look down on YOU and YOURS. In a more cynical way one could look at it like this, if it hurts pinnacle in the long run so what? I didnt invest any of my money on it.

Good luck Pinn and keep doing what needs to be done!
Tyler


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> I am figuring 1 1/2-2 a day. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe what I do, you believe what you do. Won't hold it against you.


 
How much is gonna cost to book 520 gigs a year? Who's gonna answer the phone and do all the marketing while your busy painting. C'mon Biker! I know your more business savvy than this.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> i guess someone could assume thats all pinnacle would do for the year (paint $200 rooms) but that probably isnt the case.


 
But this is how you guys a trying to legitimize the point of $200 a day is good money.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think they are saying that 2 $200/day jobs can be good money. That would be upto 100k per year, working 50 weeks. Lets just hope that a fair amount of those 200 rooms are in the same house.

With High Fibre's method, he could crank out 4 $200 dollar jobs in a day (same home or if lucky and in same neighborhood).


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

on a day i would normally have off, its fine.

and it would also make a return customer happy.

it opens the doors to other projects.

i painted an elderly ladies ceiling in a bathroom for an apple pie.

who cares?

i loved it.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i wonder why this is aggravating some guys so much?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> i wonder why this is aggravating some guys so much?[/quo
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's just plain sad.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

this is what's called the free market at work.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> this is what's called the free market at work.


 
no, its called uneducated desperate day painters at work.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> no, its called uneducated desperate day painters at work.


 
Will you stop beating around the bush with the subtle innuendo and false passion about a topic you really dont know much about or could care less about? Oh wait, wrong quote. Sorry NEPS.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I cant believe I'm gonna come out and say this ....this is hard .............................. but I miss Brian.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS, where are you in New England? Super high Cost of Living? High local taxes? I can see you thinking that Pinnacle's price is low, but Fibre's is double his price.

The most heavily advertised company in my area for the past 2-3 years does $97 minimum (10x10), HO clears room and supplies paint. I think their formula is .97 per sq. ft. of floor space.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I cant believe I'm gonna come out and say this ....this is hard .............................. but I miss Brian.


Its nice when a little turbulence makes us appreciate each other. I'm feelin it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm not trying to crap on anyone (except the artist formaly known as Johnthepainter), but really trying to help. Believe it or not I have some experience at this paint company thingy and have made many mistakes but am fortunate enough to still be in business and will be through this recession and long after.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> NEPS, where are you in New England? Super high Cost of Living? High local taxes? I can see you thinking that Pinnacle's price is low, but Fibre's is double his price.
> 
> The most heavily advertised company in my area for the past 2-3 years does $97 minimum (10x10), HO clears room and supplies paint. I think their formula is .97 per sq. ft. of floor space.


My argument Dean is for those that think that booking 2-a-day $200 jobs is a gold mine. It's not. Like I said before ....what about your overhead. 

I do live in a expensive area and pay high taxes. Tax-a-chusetts. 

Lets not Fibre too much credit. 97% of his posts are just to stir the pot.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> 97% of his posts are just to stir the pot.


Ratings must be going through the roof.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

no one said $200 rooms are a gold mine.

why are you so excited about this?

with your illustrious career as a painter to the stars, you would surely never compete with the likes of us uneducated day painters.

please tell us how you do it.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

high fibre said:


> no one said $200 rooms are a gold mine.
> 
> why are you so excited about this?
> 
> ...


Can you just get over this deal and go on with something eles your starting to bug me


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm sorry. I thought I was talking to a group of ambitious entrepreneurs that were seeking a way to grow and be successful. Some of you cant see the forest through the trees. Good luck.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

yes, i am also bugged by the hostility.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

high fibre said:


> yes, i am also bugged by the hostility.


Naw, I'm bugged by you fibre


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm sorry. I thought I was talking to a group of ambitious entrepreneurs that were seeking a way to grow and be successful. Some of you cant see the forest through the trees. Good luck.


neps, not everyone wants to grow their business.

i work very hard at staying small.

this sounds crazy to business types.

im not one of them.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That makes it all the more interesting that you would have such an incredibly refined estimating model. Imagine if you applied yourself?


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

it would be a far stretch to call my estimating model refined.

although, it has worked well for me.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> neps, not everyone wants to grow their business.
> 
> i work very hard at staying small.
> 
> ...


 
Not crazy at all. I think thats great and now understand a little more about you.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm sorry. I thought I was talking to a group of ambitious entrepreneurs that were seeking a way to grow and be successful. Some of you cant see the forest through the trees. Good luck.


I take in everything you and a few others say with alot of respect, and like to step back an observe different scenarios that never even crossed my mind. :thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Who ever just called me and said I hurt their feelings and to call them back ......I dont know who you are to call you back ....leave a number next time.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Who ever just called me and said I hurt their feelings and to call them back ......I dont know who you are to call you back ....leave a number next time.


Are you serious? :lol:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Who ever just called me and said I hurt their feelings and to call them back ......I dont know who you are to call you back ....leave a number next time.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

was that you ewe?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> was that you ewe?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

How much is gonna cost to book 520 gigs a year?
Not as much as not booking them.
Who's gonna answer the phone and do all the marketing while your busy painting.
The same jerk that does it now. Me!
C'mon Biker! I know your more business savvy than this.[/quote]

You don't know, what you don't know. I think you should be savvy enough to see how it can work. 

Maybe it won't work in your business climate. Or in the expensive areas of the northeast. Or if you have lots of overhead. I can make the numbers not work. I can also make them work. It's an intellectual exercise for me. You have to view it from several angles.

There is an assumption on both our parts that this would be all you do. Rooms for $200.00. We both know that in many case you get more work once you are in the door. Also one will get more than one $200.00 room. You'll get addition work, or the famous "While you are here, can you give me a price on?" If you are really good, you look for and ask for the add ons. You are already in the door and they are ready to open their wallet.

I still believe that in a small 1-2 man business, with low overhead, the numbers work. There are some if's in there. I am just not ready to write it off.

We don't have to agree. We just need to spread some wealth around.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> How much is gonna cost to book 520 gigs a year?
> There is an assumption on both our parts that this would be all you do. Rooms for $200.00.
> thats the platform being discussed
> We both know that in many case you get more work once you are in the door. Also one will get more than one $200.00 room. You'll get addition work, or the famous "While you are here, can you give me a price on?" If you are really good, you look for and ask for the add ons. You are already in the door and they are ready to open their wallet.
> ...


 
I still love you big boy


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

high fibre said:


> neps, not everyone wants to grow their business.
> 
> i work very hard at staying small.
> 
> ...


This is so adverse to many a philosophy of business and society, it's not funny. And the reason it's not funny, because it is a very valid reality for many situations.

I know some will be reviled and some will be redeemed by my agreeing with the sentiment. 

BUT, everything has a size at which it runs optimally. The human body needs to grow until it reaches it's peak, anything less is anemic, anything more is unhealthy for the heart.

A balloon needs to be inflated to be a balloon, but too much air and ..... OOOPS ! BANG! 

Population is the same. We need a certain size to best serve all living creatures, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Government is the same. Too small and chaos, too big and a different type of chaos.

Well business is the same. Each business has an optimum size. It takes a good business man to realize his correct size. And no one can be faulted for operating at his own personal optimum size.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I still love you big boy


 
:surrender:

You win! I will not discuss $200.00 rooms any more!​


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> :surrender:
> 
> You win! I will not discuss $200.00 rooms any more!​


how about garage doors?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> how about garage doors?


If I remember right, I did stay out of that one.
How about painting over wallpaper?​


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> If I remember right, I did stay out of that one.
> How about painting over wallpaper?​



      

ya got me there


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> You ain't finding a job for $25 an hour around here. It's no secret that I commute an hour into prime residential areas to do my business. Work is slowing down. I can keep my help and myself busy for now.
> 
> What about Jan/Feb? Have one job right now. Think it is something worth looking into.
> 
> ...



The thing tho if you can't market for regular jobs how do you think your going to market a years worth of 2 bedrooms a day at 200$??

Its a band aid I don't think it would work for all year round... and I would pay a good painter 25$ hr...


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## Gnome34 (Oct 23, 2008)

This topic caused WAY too much drama(as usual here quite apparently). The title apparently confused some people. Pinnacle was not saying HE was changing the painting business forever. He was saying THE ECONOMY was changing the painting business forever. I dont agree with the forever part but you get the drift. In any case it seemed to me that all he was doing was explaining what he plans to do to stay afloat and profitable. Honestly, its not that big of a deal. I was kind of embarrassed to read all these immature responses. I dont think anyone here(aside from the ever-so full of themselves members) gives a [email protected]$$ who charges more or who makes more money. This a forum to learn and listen to others who have experience in the same feild. Its sad that its turned into an ego and checkbook contest.

Somebody needs to sit a whole bunch of you in a corner to think about what you've done. CALM DOWN!!!! This is not life or death, this is an internet forum for God's sake!

I hope someday this site becomes more useful than it currently is. Experience should not equal pride/ego.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya! :drink:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Gnome34 said:


> This topic caused WAY too much drama(as usual here quite apparently). The title apparently confused some people. Pinnacle was not saying HE was changing the painting business forever. He was saying THE ECONOMY was changing the painting business forever. I dont agree with the forever part but you get the drift. In any case it seemed to me that all he was doing was explaining what he plans to do to stay afloat and profitable. Honestly, its not that big of a deal. I was kind of embarrassed to read all these immature responses. I dont think anyone here(aside from the ever-so full of themselves members) gives a [email protected]$$ who charges more or who makes more money. This a forum to learn and listen to others who have experience in the same feild. Its sad that its turned into an ego and checkbook contest.
> 
> Somebody needs to sit a whole bunch of you in a corner to think about what you've done. CALM DOWN!!!! This is not life or death, this is an internet forum for God's sake!
> 
> I hope someday this site becomes more useful than it currently is. Experience should not equal pride/ego.


Good input--I vote that each contractor here is entitled to run his or her business the way they want. If you want to paint $200 rooms--OK. We call the shots for our individual businesses. Some are real system guys and gals who know the numbers and business model. Some are attempting to know the numbers and what they mean for their individual shops. Some are one person outfits like me. I can afford the Biker Model of doing $200.00 rooms if I choose to. I was not kidding when I said the economy up here might force me into survival mode. But, the folks saying it's bad business in the long run make sense and are warning those thinking of doing the el cheapo stuff they may not be able to return to high end work once the word gets out they have also worked for peanuts. It may take peanuts to survive now. My suggestion of running two outfits at once was a simple idea. You can be an el cheapo contractor and high end painter with two hats--simple model and doable in my mind. And, I do think you can paint a 12x12 room for $200 bucks twice a day and make some money--especially if you do some upselling. High fibre likes attention, but the idea deserves legitimate discussion. I like the apartment painting idea where you do moderate prep for a moderate price and knock out one a day by yourself--maybe day and one half. Price it at $600 full bid- 2 b/r 1.5 bath. Knock it out in no longer than 12 hours. Gross $50/hr take direct and indirect expenses out and maybe wind up with 25 bucks an hour or a little less--than pay taxes on that--If are willing to work for that kinda bread or you have no choice-it ain't the end of the world.

JTP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Lets all hold hands and sing Kumbaya! :drink:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't have a small 1-2 man outfit. I keep 5 guys full time and others on call. My point is this, everyone is slow. Everyone that I know at least. If you guys are still busy as could be, good for you. When I start seeing light at the end of the tunnel, I make business decisions as an owner. I have a new construction that my crew is busy on at the moment. ME being there is pointless. My crew supervisor has it under control and at the end of each day I check it out. What am I left with? In the summer I had guys come with me to do other jobs while my crew supervisor ran the large exterior jobs. Now that I don't have those other jobs to do, I'll paint 2 rooms a day for $200 each. A lot of you disagree with the philosophy and that's fine. I have a good reputation in town and I am not worried about being the "cheap painter" in town because that doesn't matter as much as being the "best painter" in town. Two years from now when someone whose bedroom I painted for $200 has a friend that asks about the painting, that friend isn't going to say "how much did you pay for this" before they say "who did this." 

I have a friend who is a builder who has lost about $500,000 in contracts due to the economy. He sits around his house waiting for it to snow so he can go plow but his major source of income is dwindling. He refuses to lower his labor rates because he thinks the same way some of you are thinking: "it will cheapen his company." In March it's not going to be hard to explain that I cannot honor my $199 sale because it was for a limited time only and we are getting into the busy season.

This is not an employees way of thinking either. As a business owner it is my job to keep the business going no matter what. Slow economy or not. If my overhead is too high for the jobs I am currently getting, guess what, my prices don't go up, my overhead has to go down. I am in disagreement with those of you that say your overhead drives your cost. If you decided to spend $1,000,000 a week on advertising would you then charge $200,000 a day to meet your overhead?

The point is so easy that it should have never turned into a 7 page arguement. If you are slow, you have to think out of the box. Figure out what will work to get the bills paid. If you don't want to paint rooms for $200 each, don't. But why have you wasted your time trying to belittle those that think it's a great idea? If your business is too good to lower prices in a trying economy, one of two roads will present themselves: Either you have a a very strong business and will make it, or, you'll catch yourself in the temp office trying to get some painting work from the genious that has 100 guys painting rooms for $200 a day. Paying each guy $100, and walking away with his $10,000 in pocket at 5:00pm Monday through Friday. 

I suspect many of you is disagreement are the 20 year vets who only know one way to succeed in the painting industry. Times are changing and so is this field. It is becoming overrun with those who know how to make money and steal your client right out from under you. Beware. If you follow the same gameplan your old man taught you 30 years ago you might one day be knocking on my door asking "so how did you do that again?"


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## ibsocal (Apr 17, 2007)

nline2long: Seven pages :whistling2k what is it tonight :yawn: dramarama + - :sleeping: :drink:.


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## thelodges (Nov 22, 2008)

I keep a type of geneology on my previous jobs to index the success of the marketing that I do. So if I paint a living room from a mailer I will put that job into the computer and then track the referals I get from that job and then the referals from those jobs. It helps me to understand where our business is getting the best bang for the buck and most importantly it shows me repeatedly just how much work/profit is generated from referals.

About 13 years ago I was going through a rough patch I did a small room for ( I am afraid to say) $135 with the owner doing the prep work and supplying the paint. Even though this was a loser job I still tracked it in my computer. That job ended up leading me into the hands of a high end interior decorator that has given me close to $62,000 work in the last 12 months. It may have started off from a cheapo job, but now when this designer refers us, she tells people that we are not cheap but we are the only painters she will refer.

Just becasue you do work for a reduced rate at one part of the season doesn't mean you have to keep doing discounted work. Sure there will be people who will expect it, but that doesn't mean we have to comply with their expectations. We own the business and set the rules and pricing and they can take the higher price or leave it. Even if they are a referal from discounted work, they are still referals and that carries alot of weight in and of itself. It shows we have already performed well, are trusted and somebody else is willing to put their good name on the line by referring us. Any barriers that exist becasue of the additional price, or price increase, is easy to get past when you come to do a bid being refered. It's hard to know the marketing value of those little, or less profitable jobs. Just my two cents.


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## nuevopintor (Nov 23, 2008)

well, this is called great thinking, great plan and you make darvins theory "Survival of the Fittest" true....


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I think the original idea and posting of Pinnacles was great, and it is amusing / entertaining / sad to see all the drama after that. I recently painted a small bedroom after reading his post, and timed myself. The first coat took under an hour, and the 2nd coat (which I timed more precisely) was 20 minutes to cut in, and 15 minutes to roll. I used Aura eggshell, so I could recoat in an hour, after lunch. I used a 3/8 roller, so I wasn't dumping tons of paint on the wall either. 
I think the best part of Pinn's idea is that there is no estimating involved in this. You set the scope and parameter up front. I am going to do a similar thing, for somewhat more $, but will pickup the paint so I can have greater control of the outcome. I agree that most wall paints will be fine. I also like the idea of using Aura to get a quick turnaround, especially if it's only one room in that house for the day. If there's multiple rooms it makes it easier to jump back and forth, stick a box fan in the room while coating the other one and be fine with recoat times.
And no, this isn't a permanent fix, although a guy could develop an arm of his business and pay a decent painter $15-$20 an hour to go out and bang a couple of these out a day and make good $. 
Finally, as mentioned, the upsell is always a factor, and yes even if you're upselling work at a rate less than you make in the summer, you're still putting food on the table. 

best wishes, have a great thanksgiving. I'm glad I found this site, as there's lots of activity and ideas.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Pin you sure know how to get the long threads going dont you lol.

Happy turkey day to all.

PS
Remember "success" is in the of the beholder. not what other think lol


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Why do we have to use the economy as an excuse?? Most not all of the bad stuff you hear about on the news is over blown non sense... Now you have the average client using that news as a way to dictate what contractors should charge.. "oh the economy's terrible I heard on CNN, I should get my painter to lower his price" say Suzy homeowner.. I say Bull... 

Market yourself to people who don't think like that.. Sure its not as it was three years ago but in the areas I am working and have work for over 15 years those people still pay for what they want... and in return you go the extra mile for them..

I don't have an issue with the 200$, I have issue with the way it is advertise.. Now Pin never really mentions upsell but a lot other guys did, to me that's bait and switch and dishonest.. use the low price to get into someone's house and start acting like the car salesman.. If you want to do that feel free, you'll be the one posting the card board signs on the telephone poles with the rest of the yahoo's...

Look at a room address it for what it needs and submitt the proper proposal if your hurting and you need to put food the table then lower your rate not your principles...

I still am boggle by how the price of everything is gone up in the last three years and guys think they need to lower there price.. I just don't get it...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Pinnacle

You are a smart young guy, no doubt. For a guy in his 20's who has been running the show for a couple of years, you are really on the ball. Don't be so quick to scoff at veterans who have been at the helm of a business for a couple of decades. You are just now learning how to weather a downturn as the man responsible. I think you are doing well. Here are a couple of things to consider:

_I suspect many of you is disagreement are the 20 year vets who only know one way to succeed in the painting industry._ 

You may be off base here. Guys who have grown over the past 20 years have to have a pretty flexible playbook. Theres no such thing as a one trick pony in this business. 

_Times are changing and so is this field. It is becoming overrun with those who know how to make money and steal your client right out from under you._ 

I could write a book about the painters who have approached my clients and offered them significantly lower contracts. Those guys don't "know how to make money", they are desparate and trying to survive. 

_Beware. If you follow the same gameplan your old man taught you 30 years ago you might one day be knocking on my door asking "so how did you do that again?"_

You should beware as well. When you have been in it for 20 years as an owner you will look back at these posts and laugh at yourself. You are in a great position as an enthusiastic young entrepeneur. Most guys who have made it and are now growing despite an unprecedented economic downturn started out very much like you. Keep an open mind to the possibility that you don't have all the answers, and neither do they. Somehow, we can all learn from each other anyway.


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

^ :yes:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I don't have a small 1-2 man outfit. I keep 5 guys full time and others on call. My point is this, everyone is slow. Everyone that I know at least. If you guys are still busy as could be, good for you. When I start seeing light at the end of the tunnel, I make business decisions as an owner. I have a new construction that my crew is busy on at the moment. ME being there is pointless. My crew supervisor has it under control and at the end of each day I check it out. What am I left with? In the summer I had guys come with me to do other jobs while my crew supervisor ran the large exterior jobs. Now that I don't have those other jobs to do, I'll paint 2 rooms a day for $200 each. A lot of you disagree with the philosophy and that's fine. I have a good reputation in town and I am not worried about being the "cheap painter" in town because that doesn't matter as much as being the "best painter" in town. Two years from now when someone whose bedroom I painted for $200 has a friend that asks about the painting, that friend isn't going to say "how much did you pay for this" before they say "who did this."
> 
> I have a friend who is a builder who has lost about $500,000 in contracts due to the economy. He sits around his house waiting for it to snow so he can go plow but his major source of income is dwindling. He refuses to lower his labor rates because he thinks the same way some of you are thinking: "it will cheapen his company." In March it's not going to be hard to explain that I cannot honor my $199 sale because it was for a limited time only and we are getting into the busy season.
> 
> ...


 

Pin,
I suspect you have only been in business for 1 or 2 years and haven't had to face too much adversity. By assuming that a 20 year vet would still be in business by only knowing one way to succeed is ridiculous. The few of us here arguing the point that this is not a good way to run a business for the long term are in fact booked for the winter and have not felt the effects of this bad economy. It is not because we live in a bubble or the highest cost of living area in the country but because we started marketing for our winter 9 months ago. A few marketing threads over the summer clearly stated that you should be thinking of your winter bookings now. 

I'm not worried about the new slick guy coming in cutting my prices in half because we are in two total different markets. I'm trying to be snobby but the fact is I do not market to residential clientel that would allow someone into their home to paint for $200 a room.

I find it funny and sad when I read guys here saying that they are busy for the next two weeks but have a stack of mailers ready to go out and will wait to mail them in two weeks. I fear the responses they will get. In the past 6 weeks we have sent out close to 10,000 mailers with only 2 responses. But this is part of our yearly marketing campaign, not looking for immediate business from them. You should be marketing for your spring NOW. Always looking 6 months in advance.

This topic does deserve alot of attention and discussion because there are several problems with this trade and how painting professionals are perceived. It is frustrating because I am not just trying to argue to read my own words but trying to give you some advice from someone who has been in business a while and I would like to see you still be in business next year. 

Most or the "Drama" here was High Fibre and I going back and forth over nothing. There is nothing wrong with it for the short term. I would do the same if necessary. The fact of the matter is that you have to do what is necessary to survive this winter. If it means painting rooms for $100 each that fine. The dollar figure doesnt matter. Survive, because many will not.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> The few of us here arguing the point that this is not a good way to run a business for the long term are in fact booked for the winter and have not felt the effects of this bad economy. It is not because we live in a bubble or the highest cost of living area in the country but because we started marketing for our winter 9 months ago. .quote]
> 
> NEPS
> 
> ...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Market yourself to people who don't think like that.. Sure its not as it was three years ago but in the areas I am working and have work for over 15 years those people still pay for what they want... and in return you go the extra mile for them..


Bingo. Thats the whole thing. And it takes months to get to those people and build those relationships to have them in place when you really need them. The $200 concept is fine as a band aid, but its a bit reactionary. Bigger picture thinking is necessary to persevere. We see it time and again on this forum when people post who are looking for an immediate solution, a silver bullet, a little too late. It really takes months and months to instill effective change in your business. If you are scrambling around trying to survive it is really hard to achieve. Some posters call this snobbery and backslapping, I call it reality. 

You could take some of these so called snobs and backslappers and strip them of their shop, trucks, equipment, websites and money, and they would be back to full strength within 6 months in any economy. There are other guys who have never even been to full strength as a business. If you have been around a while and built a strong a business, you know what type of a hit you can take and keep moving forward. You know your strengths and weaknesses and you play to them accordingly. 

I agree that Pinnacle is not to be criticized for doing what he needs to do. In '99 I was quite convinced that condo association work was the answer. We did a bunch of it for a couple of years, and while it did help to build a business, it is no longer a market that we are interested in. You just do what you have to do and figure it out as you go. I really wish I could have picked the brains of successful business owners 10 years ago. Lord knows, I have a list of 10 guys from this forum with whom I am in pretty regular contact outside of the forum. The pool of wisdom here is very helpful. My business has grown as a result, and I hope to be able to give back. It does get frustrating when it turns into name calling and strife.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

This thread started out as the field changing forever, Some of us old goats remember the Carter years. Interest rates went up to 18% and the building bussiness just stopped. Everybody went back to work in the mills. That is not an option this time, as they have left the country also. After Carter, the congress went rep, and the building bussiness boomed. Albiet it was a differant thing from what it had been before. It always gets slow at pres election time, but this time we have the freddie and fanny thing along with a sellout, I mean bailout. We also have a change in congress, dem control (that means trying to increase egg production by strangling the chicken). I know this sounds like I'm talking politics, but what I am trying to say is that "there will be change" and there is nowhere for construction workers to go (no manufacturing jobs available) but into reatail (hardess etc). With oil being sold on the market, its price will stay high, making all our products raise in price while our prices will continue to lower, due to competition. Like it or not many quailified people will lower their prices, to stay in their field rather than go to work for HD or Blowes.

Its easy to bash the one or two man operation as being small timers and less than professonal, but what would have a small fry do? get out of painting and go flip burgers?? is that really a option for a painter when he can still ekk out a living with a brush?

I hope I'm wrong and that this new administration can get it all back on track, but I fear we are in for a rough ride for awhile.But as I see it, the ball is in their court, if the money doesn't flow, it will not flow downhill either.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I agree with Mak-Deco. The economy is far worse than it should be because the media won't stop talking about it. The majority of Americans aren't losing everything in the stock market and have a secure job. Even these people though are running scared and unwilling to spend money just because all they see on the news that the economy is awful.

As far as me being in business too short of a time to know what I am doing, I don't think that's the case. Like I said, i am usually not the lowbidder on jobs. And, if you add it all up, $199 for a 200 sq foot room isn't that low. It's just a ploy to get my foot in the door. Add it up:

$199 Labor
$35 Paint
$30 for a half hour of moving furniture
$15 for 15 minutes of removing light switches
$100 for ceiling painting
$25 for ceiling paint

That's $404 for a simple 200 sq foot room. Am I really that far off from what you guys are charging? I suspect that I am within $100 or so of most of you and I know that locally I am actually still one of the higher bidders when you add it all up. It's all perception and that has been lost somehow in this post. The customers percieve a good deal so they jump on the opportunity. 

It's just an idea. You don't have to do it. And I am not concerned about being the guy known for $200 repaints because in a few months I'll raise my price. However, I am also considering a $299 interior painting sale in the summer to get my foot in the door. Then, it's really like I am bidding $504 for a 200 sq ft room which is where I would be in the summer months anyway. It saves me time and attracts new clients.

And I do know this much, I have had two other painters that have established 20 year businesses in my area that have called and asked for work. So if they are slow and I am still booked through January, I am doing something right. And, I am making money doing it.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

some would call this technique bait and switch.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

high fibre said:


> some would call this technique bait and switch.


 
Not really. In his previous post he told the clients exactly what they were getting before he even gets the job.

Classic bait and switch is selling one thing, then substituting a totally different product. Don't see that here.

There is "bait". There is no "switch". In fact an augument can be made that everyone who markets, uses "bait". A sale, special, limited time promotion or a call to action. Are they all not "bait"?

As far as adding on to the job. Think that most successful business people do that. You go to McDonald's. Place your order. Then you are asked "Do, you want some fries with that.". Are they baiting you?


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i do not think this is bait and switch.

others have suggested it is bait and switch.

options are great.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i am considering running a special on $230 rooms. i think this is going to take off during these hard times.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

high fibre said:


> i do not think this is bait and switch.
> 
> others have suggested it is bait and switch.
> 
> options are great.


You really like to stir the pot don't you?

In another thread I said,
"I don't believe in lowering rates to get business, to me, offering to do a room for xxx amount and then saying, more to do this or that feels like bait and switch.
Listening to the customer to determine their needs and then using my numbers to determine what I need to charge to meet those needs works for me all year."

Let me clarify.
If you are going to advertise "paint 4 walls for xxxx", fine, customer knows what the deal is.
If you advertise "paint a room for xxx" and then say the trim, doors and ceiling are not part of the room price, that would be extra, I feel that is not right.

I went out to lunch, ordered the 1.99 special and a soda. When the bill came it was 3.99 + tax soda was 2 bucks! The way I felt about that place had just changed, my level of trust and good will was lowered and I have yet to return there. Just my opinion though, if it works for you, great!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

im not "stirring the pot"

im just making observations.

others have mentioned bait and switch.

it appears many posters here do not like to have their ideas challenged, even if they are challenged politely.

this is very unfortunate.

i would encourage the hundreds of new painting contractors that lurk here, and are apprehensive to post due to the childish behavior, to question percieved wisdom.


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## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

*Why hasn't anyone commented on painter for a day?*

Did anyone go to Chismbrothers.com? Just curious on anyones thoughts... also on the current subject --- I have worked in two very related fields in my life (auto body and painting), and both have their problems: limited work and price pressure. Not surprisingly they both have the same solution: quality work = more work in long run. Now yes you will need to adjust pricing now and again, thats the "free market" FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.  Do we live in RUSSIA where we are guranteed a livable wage ($475 a room instead of $200 and we get it day after day, year after year because dang it thats what it takes). I say more power to everyone, high or low on pricing. I have a guy day in and day out that under prices our body shop division by $2 bucks and hour just to, "steal" work. Thats his bag and I wouldn't want anyone to mandate otherwise.:2guns:

Yes know your numbers: overhead, direct vs. indirect costs, etc..... but if you are a one or two man band then charge what you must. If your too low you will out of business in a year anyhow, and then no one will care what you charged.:tt2:

Some seem insistant its their way or the highway, for pricing etc.... it all depends on what highway your traveling.

Good luck to us all, big and small.:thumbup:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

damn i only charge about "hundrid fo a room"--T & Z PAINTINT


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## tad (Jan 28, 2008)

Hey guys just came across an ad in my newspaper today up to 12x12 room for 199.00 1 coat, 2 coats 249.00 materials included. 4 months same as cash.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

tad said:


> Hey guys just came across an ad in my newspaper today up to 12x12 room for 199.00 1 coat, 2 coats 249.00 materials included. 4 months same as cash.


 
well now its in print........time to make it work at $175. j/k


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Gorilla marketing tactics. All about "perception". More like deception.

May want to learn how to spell genius before you proclaim yourself as one.

It's been said a hundred times on this board that most do not realize they are loosing money until it's too late.:hang:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> well now its in print........time to make it work at $175. j/k


_It gets so sticky down here, better butter your cue finger up..._


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

12x12 room 9' ceilings = $.47 per sqft. labor only!!! HHHMMMMMMM


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## Art Works Interiors (Apr 4, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> May want to learn how to spell genius before you proclaim yourself as one.
> 
> It's been said a hundred times on this board that most do not realize they are *loosing* money until it's too late.


Ahem.

Losing. Loosing may mean giving slack to a knot, and, actually, that's archaic. It would be "loosening".

Loosing is not a word. :whistling2:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

Oh look, a hair. Let's split it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

AH yes .....but I'm no genious


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> 12x12 room 9' ceilings = $.47 per sqft. labor only!!! HHHMMMMMMM


 
but if the room has 6 foot ceilings it comes to 60 cents per square foot.


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