# Best covering white for walls over dark color?



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

What's your go-to system to paint walls in a pure white color?
The walls are currently very dark taupe & blue.

I've given up trying to do it in 2 coats. Is there a super covering primer out there? I've had suggestions for Aqualock & gripper primer.

I know Aura covers well but it is 2x the price of the paint I normally use, Dulux Lifemaster.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

so what you are saying is what is the best covering white for a similar price to what you are using? I'm confused. Paint b covers better but i use paint a, and i want a paint priced more like a that covers more like b. Is that what you mean?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

I always use a light grey primer for that transition. And then use a white with a few shots of black mixed in for the first coat to help ease the transition. However, two coats of gripper or gripseal should do it before topcoating.

Although, PAC is certainly not wrong. Sometimes it's better to double the price so you don't double your work. Besides if it takes five coats of your regular mix, it's more expensive doing it that way.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PaPainter724 said:


> I always use a light grey primer for that transition. And then use a white with a few shots of black mixed in for the first coat to help ease the transition. However, two coats of gripper or gripseal should do it before topcoating.
> 
> Although, PAC is certainly not wrong. Sometimes it's better to double the price so you don't double your work. Besides if it takes five coats of your regular mix, it's more expensive doing it that way.


Yeah someone suggested Gripper or Dulux Xpert line. I might even try the Benjamin Moore 508 ceiling ultra flat for the first coat. it covers fantastic but have never tried it for walls. At bit pricey at $52/gallon though.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PACman said:


> so what you are saying is what is the best covering white for a similar price to what you are using? I'm confused. Paint b covers better but i use paint a, and i want a paint priced more like a that covers more like b. Is that what you mean?


I'm looking for the cheapest way to cover it in 3 coats. but it has to be a guaranteed 3 coats

Regal ($54) + Dulux Lifemaster ($30) + Lifemaster ($30) = $114

Aura ($62) + Lifemaster ($30) + Lifemaster ($30) = $122

Lifemaster (3 coats) = $90 but no guarantee of 3 coat coverage.

Aura (2 coats) = $124 but no guarantee of 2 coat coverage.

That's the math I'm using for this project.

I'm a bit leery when some suggest a primer as the first coat. I find that paints cover better than primers.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Do an experiment*



Mr Smith said:


> I'm looking for the cheapest way to cover it in 3 coats. but it has to be a guaranteed 3 coats
> 
> Regal ($54) + Dulux Lifemaster ($30) + Lifemaster ($30) = $114
> 
> ...


Mr. Smith, how about trying this: when the walls are prepped and ready for primer,paint or whatever you are going to do, take one wall and Gardz it according to the directions on the can and the TDS - the link for which I will post here:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

and this exerpt from same: 

APPLICATION
Apply only when air, material, and surface temperatures
are between 50-90ºF (10-32ºC) and the relative humidity
is below 85%. Thoroughly mix before using. DO NOT
THIN. Apply GARDZ liberally to the entire surface using a
brush, medium nap roller or sprayer, to ensure good
penetration. Do not over apply or the coating will sag.
GARDZ appears milky blue-white during the application
but dries water clear. Properly sealed surfaces should
have a uniform sheen. Reapply to areas that have been
missed or lack sufficient coating. 

I have found that a first coat of Gardz helps all of the paint/primer, including the water vehicle, stay on the surface and not soak into whatever is previously on the wall - dark paint in your case!

Just do one wall with the Gardz and see if there is a difference between that wall and the others. I can almost guarantee that your coverage will be noticably better on the Gardzed wall regardzless of what paint or primer/paint combo you decide to use.

Good luck!

futtyos


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

futtyos said:


> I have found that a first coat of Gardz helps all of the paint/primer, including the water vehicle, stay on the surface and not soak into whatever is previously on the wall - dark paint in your case!
> 
> Just do one wall with the Gardz and see if there is a difference between that wall and the others. I can almost guarantee that your coverage will be noticably better on the Gardzed wall regardzless of what paint or primer/paint combo you decide to use.
> 
> ...


do you prime all your new drywall with gardz?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

> I'm a bit leery when some suggest a primer as the first coat. I find that paints cover better than primers.


Why? Primers, especially sealing primers (like gripper) are meant to seal out stains or color bleed through. If it were me I'd get a can of gripper get two shots of black in it, prime it, two coats of finish and call it a day.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Vylum said:


> do you prime all your new drywall with gardz?


yes he does. wish he was my gardz customer. :biggrin:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The key is to put a few drops of black or raw umber in whatever topcoat you are using. You can get away with a much lower priced product if you do. The best is the JET formula.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Futtyos you have to own a lot of stock in Gardz or something?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

also, if you have access to it P&L has a very good high hold-out primer that hides very well.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Skip the primer, just use your normal paint. It's going to take three coats, regardless. No switching rollers, brushes, trays, etc. Try to get a nice heavy roll coat first and foremost. You could give Marquee a try? For what you are doing, it might be the best option. I personally think the finish laps terribly, and is very slow to work with.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Mr. Smith, how about trying this: when the walls are prepped and ready for primer,paint or whatever you are going to do, take one wall and Gardz it according to the directions on the can and the TDS - the link for which I will post here:
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx
> 
> ...


Dude, Gardz is the absolute WRONG thing to prime it with. Its CLEAR. He needs something to cover the color of the old paint. And yes, I know for a fact that gardz wont save him any coats. I had a four coater bright orange over my gardzed drywall, so no, your theory is debunked.


I agree. If anything, use a flat version of the topcoat first, cuz it covers better, and additional coats cover better over it. I just use the topcoat. If it takes three coats, it takes three coats. Why bring a primer into the equation?


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> I'm looking for the cheapest way to cover it in 3 coats. but it has to be a guaranteed 3 coats
> 
> I'm a bit leery when some suggest a primer as the first coat. I find that paints cover better than primers.


If you are looking for the cheapest easiest way, just get a good top coat like BM regal, and do 3 coats. You only need to buy 1 product, and use 1 roller. The amount of coats needed is also dependent on how thick you put it on. 

My preferred method for drastic color change, is to prime first, then 2 coats of quality finish paint. I generally prime first, because I can prime the whole house at once. then top coat the rooms. Primer also covers and seals spackle repairs better then top coat. If there are no, or not many repairs, you can use your ceiling paint in place of the primer.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Floor finishing*



ridesarize said:


> Futtyos you have to own a lot of stock in Gardz or something?


Rides, maybe I should buy some stock in Gardz for all I promote it. The reason I am so big on Gardz comes from my days stripping and refinishing resilient floors with acrylic finish. Many years ago when i was starting out I stripped one old floor that was pretty beat up and really porous. No matter how many coats of finish I put on, the floor just sucked it up without leaving any shine. I made a trip to my local janitorial supply house and described my predicament to the owner. He told me that i needed to start with a sealer first, then top with finish coats. I stripped the floor again, put 2 coats of sealer on, then the top coats of floor finish started shining like crazy. When I first used Gardz I could see that it looked like acrylic floor sealer. Then I realized that it smelled like acrylic floor sealer, banana oila and such. When I applied Gardz, I realized that it had a similar viscosity and workability to acrylic floor sealer. Most importantly, I found that Gardz did what acrylic floor sealer did, provide a solid sealing of the surface so that the finish coat could cover and look its best.

In my opinion, a proper coat of Gardz gets you back down to square one where whatever is underneath is not going to have much effect on whatever you put over the Gardz. After finding out what Gardz did on my own, I came across this link that also discusses how well Gardz works:

https://jackpauhl.wordpress.com/tag/gardz/

I haven't applied Gardz as Woodco has described he did by spraying and backrolling and I have never applied orange paint over Gardz, so I cannot speak as to what he was dealing with. If he wants to use that as a way for him to think he has debunked my theory, he is welcome to do so. I am not talking about theory, I am talking about what I have personally experienced in rolling paint out over Gardz as properly applied.

My experience tells me that Gardz, over any other primer/sealer I have used, will give the paint you put over it the best chance for covering over whatever is underneath in 2 coats without the water or any other part of the paint being sucked up into the surface while allowing for a wet edge like most primers don't do.

Everyone here can do whatever they want, including Mr. Smith. I am only suggesting to Mr. Smith that he try applying Gardz over one small wall, then see how that wall compares with the walls that aren't Gardzed. What is wrong with that? If it works, Mr. Smith will have acquired a valuable painting tool for his arsenal. If Mr. smith listens to all the naysayers here and doesn't try it out, then he won't know for himself if it would work or not.

Pretty simple in my opinion.

futtyos


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

If doing any type of square footage you may be better served masking off and spraying everything. Pretty much guarantee 2 coat coverage with good (doesn't have to be top of the line ) paint. The time spent masking will more than make up for material and not having to apply multiple coats.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

rosespainting said:


> If you are looking for the cheapest easiest way, just get a good top coat like BM regal, and do 3 coats. You only need to buy 1 product, and use 1 roller. The amount of coats needed is also dependent on how thick you put it on.
> 
> My preferred method for drastic color change, is to prime first, then 2 coats of quality finish paint. I generally prime first, because I can prime the whole house at once. then top coat the rooms. Primer also covers and seals spackle repairs better then top coat. If there are no, or not many repairs, you can use your ceiling paint in place of the primer.


Regal isn't 'cheap" paint. I pay $54/gallon. I love that paint, especially for trim but only 20% of my clients want top end stuff. I give them a choice of good, better, or best and the vast majority choose "better" or midline priced paint.

Anything under $40 is what I consider "better" or mid-line paint.

Regal is the best trim paint to brush or roll. I just did a bunch of flat doors in their pearl finish and it came out like glass with a 5mm roller. The 4" Wooster micro plush sleeve is fantastic with Regal. I can't find any 9" micro plush sleeves in my city for wall painting. I always add Extender to BM paints. That's the secret sauce.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'd go three coats with regal or perhaps duration and call it a day. Primer just means you have an extra setup to clean and you're still doing it three coats regardless. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> Regal isn't 'cheap" paint. I pay $54/gallon. I love that paint, especially for trim but only 20% of my clients want top end stuff. I give them a choice of good, better, or best and the vast majority choose "better" or midline priced paint.
> 
> Anything under $40 is what I consider "better" or mid-line paint.
> 
> Regal is the best trim paint to brush or roll. I just did a bunch of flat doors in their pearl finish and it came out like glass with a 5mm roller. The 4" Wooster micro plush sleeve is fantastic with Regal. I can't find any 9" micro plush sleeves in my city for wall painting. I always add Extender to BM paints. That's the secret sauce.


 
Regal is not cheap paint, But you may be able to do 2 good coats of regal and be good. Where you could need double the amount of coats of cheaper paint. Making the cheaper paint, not cheaper in the end. Your time / labor is also worth more than the paint. If it takes you twice as long to put on twice the amount of coats, not only are you spending more on paint, you are spending twice the time. If you are charging for your time accordingly (and no one should have to give away their time for free) it will cost your customer twice as much money for cheap paint. Cheap paint is never worth using. 

Using a cheaper paint for the first coat or 2 does not make sense, because you need twice the rollers brushes, trays, buckets etc. Which means twice as much time cleaning. And you will have twice the amount of paint left over. Just seems wasteful all around when price is an issue. efficiency and quality products, will lead to lower costs with best end result.

I guess different markets warrant different things. BM Regal or SW super paint, is the cheapest paint I offer. They are my "good" choice, with others being better and best. I also pay between $36 for regal flat, and $44 for semi-gloss regal depending on where I buy from.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> Regal isn't 'cheap" paint. I pay $54/gallon. I love that paint, especially for trim but only 20% of my clients want top end stuff. I give them a choice of good, better, or best and the vast majority choose "better" or midline priced paint.
> 
> Anything under $40 is what I consider "better" or mid-line paint.
> 
> Regal is the best trim paint to brush or roll. I just did a bunch of flat doors in their pearl finish and it came out like glass with a 5mm roller. The 4" Wooster micro plush sleeve is fantastic with Regal. *I can't find any 9" micro plush sleeves* in my city for wall painting. I always add Extender to BM paints. That's the secret sauce.


Talk to your BM supplier because they are easy to get (most sundries wholesalers carry them in open stock) and no reason they shouldn't be willing to bring a few in. I carry them 3/16,5/16 in 9",14",18". I did recently have a few guys try the wooster "microplush" & "microfiber" & hands down the elder & jenks 1/2" microfiber is a better cover so I will probably end up replacing those... common complaint was microplush leave haliday and microfiber shedding. I do like the 4.5" JK microplush


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

rosespainting said:


> Regal is not cheap paint, But you may be able to do 2 good coats of regal and be good. Where you could need double the amount of coats of cheaper paint. Making the cheaper paint, not cheaper in the end. Your time / labor is also worth more than the paint. If it takes you twice as long to put on twice the amount of coats, not only are you spending more on paint, you are spending twice the time. If you are charging for your time accordingly (and no one should have to give away their time for free) it will cost your customer twice as much money for cheap paint. Cheap paint is never worth using.
> 
> Using a cheaper paint for the first coat or 2 does not make sense, because you need twice the rollers brushes, trays, buckets etc. Which means twice as much time cleaning. And you will have twice the amount of paint left over. Just seems wasteful all around when price is an issue. efficiency and quality products, will lead to lower costs with best end result.
> 
> I guess different markets warrant different things. BM Regal or SW super paint, is the cheapest paint I offer. They are my "good" choice, with others being better and best. I also pay between $36 for regal flat, and $44 for semi-gloss regal depending on where I buy from.


Thats a really good pricing for regal, most independent shops wouldn't be able to offer that off the shelf


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I'd go with 3 coats of regal. Make the ho pay for it cuz theyre gonna pay one way or the other. Labor is more expensive than product. And 1st coat is your prime coat.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I think this post had some great information and could hold the key to better hide and "grip".

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/peeing-paint-88610/


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Skip the primer, just use your normal paint. It's going to take three coats, regardless. No switching rollers, brushes, trays, etc. Try to get a nice heavy roll coat first and foremost. You could give Marquee a try? For what you are doing, it might be the best option. I personally think the finish laps terribly, and is very slow to work with.


The best part is when they want to change colors all they have to do is peel the Marquee back off the wall!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Rides, maybe I should buy some stock in Gardz for all I promote it. The reason I am so big on Gardz comes from my days stripping and refinishing resilient floors with acrylic finish. Many years ago when i was starting out I stripped one old floor that was pretty beat up and really porous. No matter how many coats of finish I put on, the floor just sucked it up without leaving any shine. I made a trip to my local janitorial supply house and described my predicament to the owner. He told me that i needed to start with a sealer first, then top with finish coats. I stripped the floor again, put 2 coats of sealer on, then the top coats of floor finish started shining like crazy. When I first used Gardz I could see that it looked like acrylic floor sealer. Then I realized that it smelled like acrylic floor sealer, banana oila and such. When I applied Gardz, I realized that it had a similar viscosity and workability to acrylic floor sealer. Most importantly, I found that Gardz did what acrylic floor sealer did, provide a solid sealing of the surface so that the finish coat could cover and look its best.
> 
> In my opinion, a proper coat of Gardz gets you back down to square one where whatever is underneath is not going to have much effect on whatever you put over the Gardz. After finding out what Gardz did on my own, I came across this link that also discusses how well Gardz works:
> 
> ...


There is some validity in what futtyos is saying here. If you are able to get a more uniform film of the correct recommended wet film thickness, paint will actually hide better and more uniformly than it will over a non-sealed and very porous surface. If the finish coat will be flat, you can get away with a lot less sealing of the substrate and get a good hide. If there is any sheen or there is a drastic color difference, the uniformity of the wet film plays a big part in the hide quality of the dry film. Also if the substrate has varying absorption rates, a good seal coat will provide a much more even absorption of the pigment, which will result in a more even and better hiding finish coat.

The things i look at when a customer has a hide problem (other than the overall quality of the paint) is how porous the substrate is, was the paint applied at the proper film thickness, was the paint applied at that film thickness uniformly, and how well did the paint lay out as it dried. Quite often adding a flow modifier to the paint will improve the hide, as well as having a surface to paint that has fewer variables and provides a more uniform and less restrictive surface for the topcoats to "flow". It is much easier to get a perfect wet film thickness on a piece of glass than a piece of drywall, and that effects how well the paint will hide. This is how a clear sealer such as Gardz can actually improve the overall hide quality of the topcoats. Quite often what you see is actually not poor hide, but an uneven film thickness.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

AND as much as everyone likes microfiber covers these days, they are NOT necessarily the best option for getting more hide out of a paint. Microfibers give a much better surface profile, but they actually don't transfer paint at the same rate as a good white woven or even the old standard knit type rollers do. I have had several painters switch to white woven because of hide issues and they have found out that i am correct. Try both, as the combination of the paint and roller can make a pretty big difference in hide. But in a case like this i think most of the time a white woven cover will actually put more paint on the wall resulting in a better overall hide.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Okay, but a have you ever tried a drastic color change on semigloss? Its harder, because the wall doesnt take any of the paint in. Color changes over flat paint work FAR better, because it has some porosity to it. At the same time,I see what you and Futt are saying, with the paint making a more uniform surface, but taking the time doing a 'pre-coat' is far better spent putting your color on than making the surface better. Yes, I agree you get a little better coverage and hide over gardz, but it sure as hell isnt enough to eliminate a whole coat, with a drastic color change. I've EXPERIENCED doing this. 

If you could tint Gardz to your topcoat, I think it would be great for this application. Since you kind of cant, your topcoat is the next best option, aside from painting a flat version of it.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

I had post in Painttalk after we finished the job. but i cannot find it for you. 

the job was painting BM SnowWhite over black/brown and mid tone beige. 

we painted 4 coats, one coats of BM freshstart plus 3 top coats. the issue is not covering well, it is the picture frame. 

after that job, i had another one similar, painting SW 7008 over dark gray and mid tone gray. 

for this job, i did not use any prime. i went with SW superpaint. 

after two coats with super paint, the mid tone gray completely covered. for the dark gray, the job was done in 3 coats. before and after photos are attached.
































so, this is what i learned from this two jobs. 

first, paint with good coverage plays important role to save labor. the first I used fresh start with ultraspec. I thought I had primer as base coat to cover the dark color. I could use any paint on top. for the second job, I considered to go with Regal, but I thought why not give super paint a try as it covers well and cheaper than Regal as well

second, color plays another role to save labor, white with a bit yellow covers better. this is why i use either SW 7008 or BM OC-17 when painting white. another painter i know, he uses BM CC30 when painting white, white with a bit black. 

third, the finish plays another role, flat covers better than any sheen in this case even thought I try not to use flat it matt the microfiber roller crazy. so i use wooster super fab for flat

i have dulux account setup but i never tried their product on wall, i only buy xpert semi for trim and doors as it covers way better than others.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Okay, but a have you ever tried a drastic color change on semigloss? Its harder, because the wall doesnt take any of the paint in. Color changes over flat paint work FAR better, because it has some porosity to it. At the same time,I see what you and Futt are saying, with the paint making a more uniform surface, but taking the time doing a 'pre-coat' is far better spent putting your color on than making the surface better. Yes, I agree you get a little better coverage and hide over gardz, but it sure as hell isnt enough to eliminate a whole coat, with a drastic color change. I've EXPERIENCED doing this.
> 
> If you could tint Gardz to your topcoat, I think it would be great for this application. Since you kind of cant, your topcoat is the next best option, aside from painting a flat version of it.


They used to actually make a white pigmented tintable gardz! It didn't sell so the discontinued it. I'm not saying it is the best way to get hide, just that there is SOME validity to it and it is not completely BS. In some situations it actually does help the hide of the topcoat without the need of a pigmented primer.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*No*



Vylum said:


> do you prime all your new drywall with gardz?


Usually just one wall. 

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*#325-W Draw Tite™ Sealer/Primer White*



PACman said:


> They used to actually make a white pigmented tintable gardz! It didn't sell so the discontinued it. I'm not saying it is the best way to get hide, just that there is SOME validity to it and it is not completely BS. In some situations it actually does help the hide of the topcoat without the need of a pigmented primer.


Too bad Scotch Paint is not more accessable. They still have the white-pigmented Draw-Tite:

#325-W Draw Tite™ Sealer/Primer White 

Perhaps I should break down and order a gallon of clear and a gallon of white.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Painting over glass*



PACman said:


> There is some validity in what futtyos is saying here. If you are able to get a more uniform film of the correct recommended wet film thickness, paint will actually hide better and more uniformly than it will over a non-sealed and very porous surface. If the finish coat will be flat, you can get away with a lot less sealing of the substrate and get a good hide. If there is any sheen or there is a drastic color difference, the uniformity of the wet film plays a big part in the hide quality of the dry film. Also if the substrate has varying absorption rates, a good seal coat will provide a much more even absorption of the pigment, which will result in a more even and better hiding finish coat.
> 
> The things i look at when a customer has a hide problem (other than the overall quality of the paint) is how porous the substrate is, was the paint applied at the proper film thickness, was the paint applied at that film thickness uniformly, and how well did the paint lay out as it dried. Quite often adding a flow modifier to the paint will improve the hide, as well as having a surface to paint that has fewer variables and provides a more uniform and less restrictive surface for the topcoats to "flow". It is much easier to get a perfect wet film thickness on a piece of glass than a piece of drywall, and that effects how well the paint will hide. This is how a clear sealer such as Gardz can actually improve the overall hide quality of the topcoats. Quite often what you see is actually not poor hide, but an uneven film thickness.


Thanks for the response. I was thinking about making the comparison to glass, but it found its way onto PT thru you! I might add that painting over Gardz gives me a wet edge for far longer than anything else I have painted over. Perhaps this helps the paint flow out and cover more uniformly.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Painting over different sheens*



Woodco said:


> Okay, but a have you ever tried a drastic color change on semigloss? Its harder, because the wall doesnt take any of the paint in. Color changes over flat paint work FAR better, because it has some porosity to it. At the same time,I see what you and Futt are saying, with the paint making a more uniform surface, but taking the time doing a 'pre-coat' is far better spent putting your color on than making the surface better. Yes, I agree you get a little better coverage and hide over gardz, but it sure as hell isnt enough to eliminate a whole coat, with a drastic color change. I've EXPERIENCED doing this.
> 
> If you could tint Gardz to your topcoat, I think it would be great for this application. Since you kind of cant, your topcoat is the next best option, aside from painting a flat version of it.


Woodco, you make a very good point about painting over different sheens. I like Gardz over flat paint because it makes the surface more uniform and non-porous, allowing paint or primer to flow out over the surface instead of into the surface.

On any sheen higher than flat, I would be inclined to either prime first or just scuff and paint, but not without checking the old paint first. I just repaired and painted a ceiling in a bathroom where the walls are painted burgundy in an eggshell BM Regal (the old Regal) finish. When I went to wash some areas on the walls, the paint rubbed right off! Years ago I painted over bright red bedroom/closet walls using Aqualock first. The Aqualock gradually changed to a medium pink over the red! With the brugundy bathroom walls I would be inclined to apply a quick coat of Gardz just for safety's sake.

That being said, I normally would not Gardz over eggshell or shinier as these paints have already sealed the surfaces. If anything, I might be inclined to prime them with Glidden Gripper first to prevent the slip and slide of trying to cover a shiny surface.

My main concern with sealing porous surfaces is so I don't keep rolling water-based materials over successive layers of dry sponges, which is how I would characterize painting over layer after layer of porous paint. Each successive layer is going to get sucked in no matter how many layers of porous paint are underneath. At least that has been my experience. That is why I like Gardz - it stops the porosity and puts you back to square one.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Wooster Micro Plush?*



PACman said:


> AND as much as everyone likes microfiber covers these days, they are NOT necessarily the best option for getting more hide out of a paint. Microfibers give a much better surface profile, but they actually don't transfer paint at the same rate as a good white woven or even the old standard knit type rollers do. I have had several painters switch to white woven because of hide issues and they have found out that i am correct. Try both, as the combination of the paint and roller can make a pretty big difference in hide. But in a case like this i think most of the time a white woven cover will actually put more paint on the wall resulting in a better overall hide.


PACman, I have seen a lot of microfiber rollers over the last few years, but none of them appear to look and feel the same as Wooster's Micro Plush:

http://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers/catalog/micro-plush/

It looks and feel as if it is woven somehow.

I seem to get very even coverage using the 5/16" nap on both walls and ceilings (remember, I work for a GC at twin hi rises in Chicago who, when I started for him, would only let me use 1/4" naps for anything), so even that I just rolled out some semi-gloss on 3 flat doors using the 5/16" and was very happy with the result. I plan to use the 5/16" for trim work in the future. It works even better than Wooster's 3/16" Pro Dooz as the Pro dooz seems to turn into a hybrid mohair roller after a while. By hybrid I mean that one half of the roller will roll smooth in one direction while the other half rolls rough, then vice versa when going in the opposite direction!

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*More info please! *



Mr Smith said:


> What's your go-to system to paint walls in a pure white color?
> The walls are currently very dark taupe & blue.
> 
> I've given up trying to do it in 2 coats. Is there a super covering primer out there? I've had suggestions for Aqualock & gripper primer.
> ...


Mr. Smith, I must apologize for replying to your thread here without asking a bit more about your situation.

You say "The walls are currently very dark taupe & blue." Are these paints flat, eggshell, something else? What condition is the paint in? Is it degrading and washes off? Do you know what brands of paint they are and how long ago they were applied?

In a previous post I suggested applying Gardz to just one wall to see what difference it would make. If the paint on your walls is eggshell or higher in sheen, I would not use Gardz.

I have other ideas, but I am not sure they would be of any value until finding out what exactly you are dealing with.

There is an old saying: ask the wrong question and you might get a right answer to the wrong question.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Maybe my 50/50 mixture of gardz and white acrylic primer might hide good over dark colors...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> They used to actually make a white pigmented tintable gardz! It didn't sell so the discontinued it. I'm not saying it is the best way to get hide, just that there is SOME validity to it and it is not completely BS. In some situations it actually does help the hide of the topcoat without the need of a pigmented primer.


Is Sheildz a totally different product than Gardz? Ive always wondered if it were just white Gardz, but I have always doubted it.


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## gregplus (Jun 11, 2013)

*hi*

I would use Gripper with microfiber roller, 2 thin coats followed by Extreme Cover SW or Ultra Hide 250 PPG, if you need better finish go with Diamond 350 PPG.

Gripper dries fast and blocks well.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Woodco and semi-gloss*



gregplus said:


> I would use Gripper with microfiber roller, 2 thin coats followed by Extreme Cover SW or Ultra Hide 250 PPG, if you need better finish go with Diamond 350 PPG.
> 
> Gripper dries fast and blocks well.


I was just working up a post along this line. While I would definitely consider using Gardz over flat dark paint, I wouldn't over eggshell or higher. For over a sheen I would also go with Gripper..

I was just going over some pics of a condo I painted 4 years ago. I had to cover several medium to medium dark colors with an off white. I primed with Gripper. At the store, I asked the clerk to tint the Gripper to the off white paint. He said I wouldn't need to have that done, so I didn't. I believe that I backrolled the Gripper so it would cover better.... or maybe it was 2 thin coats like you mentioned doing. After I rolled the first coat of paint on, I could see white primer through the off white paint! I had to 2nd coat the walls. I have a feeling that i might have been able to get away with one backrolled coat of Gripper and one coat of paint had I tinted the primer.

As far as the OP goes, I would recommend a primer like Gripper (No tinting since he wants white white). I would brush a heavy cut-in (I seem to be able to cover better brushing than mini rolling even though it takes more time), let dry, then backroll or 2 thin coat the walls to get better coverage. Top coat of paint I would brush another heavy cut-in, then see how well one top coat hides. I would use a Wooster Micro Plush 5/16" roller as it seems to cover really well no matter what I am rolling on. This would end up being about 2.5 coats. If a 2nd coat of paint is needed, I doubt I would need to cut-in a 2nd coat, just roll it out again, so it would end up about 3.5 coats in this case.

gregplus, is the Ultra Hide 250 PPG good for ceilings?

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Is Sheildz a totally different product than Gardz? Ive always wondered if it were just white Gardz, but I have always doubted it.


Gardz is a styrene acrylic. Shieldz is just an acrylic.(gardz seals a little better)
There is a pigmented styrene acrylic primer in the PPG line. Whether it compares performance wise with gardz i have no idea.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> If doing any type of square footage you may be better served masking off and spraying everything. Pretty much guarantee 2 coat coverage with good (doesn't have to be top of the line ) paint. The time spent masking will more than make up for material and not having to apply multiple coats.


-Best reply^

-Spray application offers the best hide when applying lighter tones over darker tones. Especially when cut and rolling may require more than two coats.

-Primers and sealers are designed for bare or problem substrates. Pre-existing latex coatings that are sound, clean, and dry, do not need priming. 

-Clear sealers like GARDZ, may offer excellent sheen hold out and even gloss reflection, but do little to promote hide.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> Gardz is a styrene acrylic. Shieldz is just an acrylic.(gardz seals a little better)
> There is a pigmented styrene acrylic primer in the PPG line. Whether it compares performance wise with gardz i have no idea.


DO you know what thats called? I contacted my PPG rep, and hes not familiar with anything like that. The only styrenated acrylic he knows of is Wood permanizer.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

PACman said:


> AND as much as everyone likes microfiber covers these days, they are NOT necessarily the best option for getting more hide out of a paint. Microfibers give a much better surface profile, but they actually don't transfer paint at the same rate as a good white woven or even the old standard knit type rollers do. I have had several painters switch to white woven because of hide issues and they have found out that i am correct. Try both, as the combination of the paint and roller can make a pretty big difference in hide. But in a case like this i think most of the time a white woven cover will actually put more paint on the wall resulting in a better overall hide.


Amen. After trying the microfibers because everyone was praising their greatness, I gave up on them for the reasons you mentioned, PAC. So frustrating when you have a rush job that takes THREE coats because the MF roller sleeve doesn't put enough paint on the walls.......


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> -Best reply^
> 
> -Spray application offers the best hide when applying lighter tones over darker tones. Especially when cut and rolling may require more than two coats.
> 
> ...


WRONG!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*PPG styrene acrylic?*



PACman said:


> Gardz is a styrene acrylic. Shieldz is just an acrylic.(gardz seals a little better)
> There is a pigmented styrene acrylic primer in the PPG line. Whether it compares performance wise with gardz i have no idea.


PACman, would this be the PPG product whereof you speak?

http://www.ppgporterpaints.com/products/primers/ppg-seal-grip-ultra-stain-killing-primer

https://buyat.ppg.com/rep_pafpainttools_files/porter/tdb/17-931.pdf

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> PACman, would this be the PPG product whereof you speak?
> 
> http://www.ppgporterpaints.com/products/primers/ppg-seal-grip-ultra-stain-killing-primer
> 
> ...


yes.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Seal Grip vs Gardz TDS*



PACman said:


> yes.


Here is the TDS for Seal Grip: https://buyat.ppg.com/rep_pafpainttools_files/porter/tdb/17-931.pdf

and a blurb from it:

PRODUCT TYPE: Styrene Acrylic
VOLUME SOLIDS: 56% +/- 2%
WEIGHT SOLIDS: 79% +/- 2%
VOC: 334 g/L (2.8 lbs./gal.)
WEIGHT/GALLON: 13.2 lbs. (6.0 kg) +/- 0.2 lbs. (91 g)
COVERAGE: Approximately 400 sq. ft./gal. (37 sq. m/3.78L) per U.S.
Gallon (3.78 L) on nonporous surfaces.
Wet Film Thickness: 4.0 mils
Wet Microns: 102
Dry Film Thickness: 2.2 mils
Dry Microns: 56
Coverage figures do not include loss due to surface irregularities and
porosity or material loss due to application method or mixing.
DRYING TIME: Dry time @ 77ºF (25ºC); 50% relative humidity.
To Touch: 30 minutes
To Topcoat: 1 hour*

Here is the TDS for Gardz and the comparable blurb:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

Physical Properties GARDZ PROBLEM SURFACE SEALER
Resin Type Styrenated Acrylic Emulsion
Pigment Type None
Solvents Propylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether, Water
Weight
Per Gallon 8.4 lbs.
Per Liter 1.00 kg
Solids
By Weight 26.0%
By Volume 22.0%
Volatile Organic Compounds <100 g/l (0.83 lbs./gal.)
Recommended Dry Film
Thickness (DFT) per Coat
1.0 mil
(25µ)
Wet Film to Achieve DFT (Unthinned
material)
4.5 mils
(112.5µ)
Theoretical Coverage at
1 mil DFT (25µ)
353 sq.ft./gal.
(8.7 m
2
/l)
Practical Coverage at Recommended
DFT (assume 15% material loss)
350-450 sq.ft./gal. (8.6-9.8 m2
/l)
depending on application method and surface porosity
Dry Times at 70-80°F
(21-27ºC) and 50%
Relative Humidity
Touch 30 minutes to 1 hour
Recoat 3 hours

By volume Seal Grip is 56% solids, Gardz only 22%, almost 2/3 less. By weight, Seal Grip is 79% and Gardz 26%, just under 2/3 lighter than Seal Grip. I am wondering if the thinness of Gardz is what makes it soak into porous surfaces and work the way it does. I certainly would love a sealer that would hide as well as Seal Grip or Gripper and soak in and seal as well as Gardz, but I have a feeling that if the white pigments were added to Gardz to bring it up to the specs of white primers, the Gardz effect would be diminished. I believe that the sealing abilities of white Draw-Tite were somewhat less than the clear, but i don't recall where I read that.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Draw-Tite near Chicago*

I just called a dealer in Wauwatosa, Wisconisn who carries the Draw-Tite line. I asked him how it compares to Gardz. He said about 99.5 out of a 100 customers prefer Draw-Tite.

I asked him how the white Draw-Tite compared to the clear and he said about the same. I asked him how the white would hide compared to 123 and he said about the same. Price is 36.00 per gallon plus tax.

I might look for an excuse to go up there and buy some.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> CApainter said:
> 
> 
> > -Best reply^
> ...


You do understand we're talking about un-pigmented GARDZ, right?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Gymschu said:


> Amen. After trying the microfibers because everyone was praising their greatness, I gave up on them for the reasons you mentioned, PAC. So frustrating when you have a rush job that takes THREE coats because the MF roller sleeve doesn't put enough paint on the walls.......


well yeah that's what microfiber advertised for smooth finish not carrying lots of paint to the wall. They have their place but high production isn't it.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> I just called a dealer in Wauwatosa, Wisconisn who carries the Draw-Tite line. I asked him how it compares to Gardz. He said about 99.5 out of a 100 customers prefer Draw-Tite.
> 
> I asked him how the white Draw-Tite compared to the clear and he said about the same. I asked him how the white would hide compared to 123 and he said about the same. Price is 36.00 per gallon plus tax.
> 
> ...


Bring your cooler with so you can make it a triple play, cheese, brats and Draw-Tite!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Which cover?*



cocomonkeynuts said:


> well yeah that's what microfiber advertised for smooth finish not carrying lots of paint to the wall. They have their place but high production isn't it.
> 
> Microfiber Vs. Woven - YouTube


ccmn, My current go to cover is the Wooster 5/16" Micro Plush. This gives me a very smooth finish that minimizes the valleys and peaks of stipple. It is the valleys that show the paint color underneath, so the more even the valleys and peaks are, the better the paint is covering on average. 

That being said, what woven cover would give a more average stipple than the Micro Plush?

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> ccmn, My current go to cover is the Wooster 5/16" Micro Plush. This gives me a very smooth finish that minimizes the valleys and peaks of stipple. It is the valleys that show the paint color underneath, so the more even the valleys and peaks are, the better the paint is covering on average.
> 
> That being said, what woven cover would give a more average stipple than the Micro Plush?
> 
> futtyos


wooster microfiber (not microplush) or the E&J microfiber.
http://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers/catalog/microfiber/

prodooz ftp release paint more even, still leaves a little stipple though. Works great with paints that level like Aura because it needs enough paint to level properly. Not enough paint and it wont be able to level.

I would like to try some of the polyamide fabrics like supertwist, cirrus, polarbear, whizz maximus on smooth wall sometime... great for ceilings they hold a ton of paint


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Here is the TDS for Seal Grip: https://buyat.ppg.com/rep_pafpainttools_files/porter/tdb/17-931.pdf
> 
> and a blurb from it:
> 
> ...


Like I said, I've been mixing gardz and white acrylic primer 50/50. Its still very thin, but it dries quick, and its white. 

I havent tried the seal grip synthetic.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Starting to come your way*



Woodco said:


> Like I said, I've been mixing gardz and white acrylic primer 50/50. Its still very thin, but it dries quick, and its white.
> 
> I havent tried the seal grip synthetic.


Woodco, as you can see from what I have recently posted, I am coming back your way since i starting going through my archived jobs and my use of Gripper over darker colors.

Here are links to Youtube videos of Scotch Paint's Draw-Tite, from which Gardz was engineered. De Arch (where is he these days?) told us all about Draw-Tite and how Zinsser wanted to buy out Scotch's formula, and how they had to re-formulate it to avoid copywrite laws when Scotch Paint wouldn't sell them the formula.

Here is part 1 of 4 of a guild meeting to discuss and dissect what Draw-Tite can do:





 check the others out.

Now, a duct tape test on white pigmented Draw-Tite over mud might not convince some, but I would be curious as to what PACman would think of this.

Now here's the beauty part and possibly a reprise of Christmas for you. Here is a link to Draw-Tite distributers in Texas. Hopefully one or more will be within striking distance of you. My closest is 75 miles away in Wisconsin.

http://www.scotchpaint.com/dtdtx.html

Merry Christmas, Woodco!

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, as you can see from what I have recently posted, I am coming back your way since i starting going through my archived jobs and my use of Gripper over darker colors.
> 
> Here are links to Youtube videos of Scotch Paint's Draw-Tite, from which Gardz was engineered. De Arch (where is he these days?) told us all about Draw-Tite and how Zinsser wanted to buy out Scotch's formula, and how they had to re-formulate it to avoid copywrite laws when Scotch Paint wouldn't sell them the formula.
> 
> ...


Thanks and all, but I just dont find the importance in it. If I ever happen to be in New Braunfels, maybe I'll pick some up, if its reasonably priced, but its 50 miles away from me. I use my primer mixture for wallpaper, and it hasnt failed me yet. As far as painting walls, I dont give a rats ass what I prime new texture with. If I have primer handy, I'll prime a texture patch, but if not, I'll just put two coats of the regular paint on, and it will look every bit as good, and blend in just fine, cuz I use decent quality paint. Not the best, but above average.

And I will never choose a primer to hide a dark color. I will ALWAYS use the topcoat, cuz I've never had a problem with it, and even if I do, I'll just put a third coat on, and if you cant cover a dark color in three coats, you're either using garbage paint, or you're not painting properly.

BTW, you can probably have SW drawtite to one of your nearby stores. I'll just stick with gardz or sheildz, or whatever is convenient, and I get a good price on. And I HIGHLY doubt I can get a good price on that stuff. I dont share your fondness for primer. I like to come in, and put two coats of paint on and go home. If its fresh drywall, It might takes a primer. If its one wall, I might roll gardz, I might roll something else, or I might not roll a primer at all, but it'll look exactly the same when its done no matter how I do it, so Im not gonna waste time and money to get the same result.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*As you say.*



Woodco said:


> Thanks and all, but I just dont find the importance in it. If I ever happen to be in New Braunfels, maybe I'll pick some up, if its reasonably priced, but its 50 miles away from me. I use my primer mixture for wallpaper, and it hasnt failed me yet. As far as painting walls, I dont give a rats ass what I prime new texture with. If I have primer handy, I'll prime a texture patch, but if not, I'll just put two coats of the regular paint on, and it will look every bit as good, and blend in just fine, cuz I use decent quality paint. Not the best, but above average.
> 
> And I will never choose a primer to hide a dark color. I will ALWAYS use the topcoat, cuz I've never had a problem with it, and even if I do, I'll just put a third coat on, and if you cant cover a dark color in three coats, you're either using garbage paint, or you're not painting properly.
> 
> BTW, you can probably have SW drawtite to one of your nearby stores. I'll just stick with gardz or sheildz, or whatever is convenient, and I get a good price on. And I HIGHLY doubt I can get a good price on that stuff. I dont share your fondness for primer. I like to come in, and put two coats of paint on and go home. If its fresh drywall, It might takes a primer. If its one wall, I might roll gardz, I might roll something else, or I might not roll a primer at all, but it'll look exactly the same when its done no matter how I do it, so Im not gonna waste time and money to get the same result.


Very well, Woodco. Happy New Year, nonetheless. 

futtyos


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

What difference does the price of Paint make??? Charge the customer and mark it up your in business to make money . Low end mid or high end. Spec what it will take add your number (for a PROFIT) and move on. It’s 3 Coats it’s 3 anymore will be additional. I know how we cover dark colors with any paint. Send me $99.99 dollars a month for Paint tips I’ll help ya out. Or go to YouTube watch Idaho Painter he must have a video of this &#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


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