# Scope of Work Conflict



## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

So, fairly new small scale commercial painter but long time various construction trade experience. I decided to start working for myself and go with the painting trade rather than any of the others after working in each for a period of time.

I have to ask any other commercial painter if they do lighting, plumbing, and fixture removal before painting, and then reinstall all of it when they are done?

To add some context, working for a small GC, doing fast casual restaurant remodels. GC's site superintendent insists that I should be removing all of the light fixtures, removing the open for business signs, the various promo signs hanging everywhere, stripping the bathrooms of the paper towel dispensers, spray gadgets, soap dispensers, mirrors, fold down baby tables, emergency exit lights and anything else that is on the walls before I paint. After I am done, he thinks that I should be reinstalling all of this, including including having all of the hardware to do so, like new drywall anchors, electrical connectors and all of that jazz. That was not listed in the scope of the contract with the GC when I accepted the work. I feel as though all of that is part of the demo and prep process that the GC's people should be doing to get ready for me and the other trades to come in. and once all the work is done, the GC's people should be putting the store back together.

Except for those who know about the fixture install beforehand and accept it as part of the scope of work, is it standard scope of work for a painter to be doing all of this before and after? I had never seen painters be required to do this type of added work while I was working in the other trades around them.

Any help to clarify this would be greatly appreciated. I enjoy what I am doing, but I can't price myself out of the jobs by adding labor hours for this, and I don't want to tick off the general contractors by getting into a conflict with them every time it comes up.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Although a fixtureless surface can make painting easier for the painter, typically it's not necessary to remove lighting, and plumbing fixtures if the painter can keep paint off of the fixtures. Besides, there are a lot of liabilities involved in removing things and not reattaching them properly. Face plates aren't as difficult to remove and replace and are commonly done so by painters in order to provide an obstruction free surface when rolling out walls.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

seems crazy to me, especially since it wasn't in the contract. How are you supposed to meet deadlines in those conditions


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

I agree with both of your replies. I don't have a need to remove most of these items, but they requested that they be removed because they don't like the cut-in look. I also don't see how I can keep up with deadlines when I have no idea what I am going up against at each location. Some paper towel dispensers are electric with motion sensors, some are not. Some emergency light fixtures are so old and brittle the tabs snap off the minute you touch them to take the face plates off. Some items are installed by hack handyman using toggle bolts or insufficient drywall anchors or a combination of both. How am I supposed to reinstall these items under those conditions without making 10 potential trips to the hardware store?
I just wanted to make sure that I was not off in left field somewhere, doing electrical work, fixture installation, and all of that jazz. I have asked them to have the store ready when I get there, by having all of these items removed, but the site superintendent just complains that he doesn't have enough manpower to do it and is always on a tight schedule; asking me to step up and help out. The last conversation we had, I asked him when the last time that one of his people stepped up and picked up a paintbrush and helped me out when I was still there at 8:00p at night trying to keep up with their schedule. It did not go well after that, as you can imagine...


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Throwin' Paint said:


> So, fairly new small scale commercial painter but long time various construction trade experience. I decided to start working for myself and go with the painting trade rather than any of the others after working in each for a period of time.
> 
> I have to ask any other commercial painter if they do lighting, plumbing, and fixture removal before painting, and then reinstall all of it when they are done?
> 
> ...


It makes a difference if it is hourly or straight bid. You could take a loss one time in good faith, and explain that in the future another arrangement will have to be agreed upon (either + hourly or /piece)

I they are replacing the towel holders it makes sense to do that before painting. Otherwise I tape around permanent. I believe it is illegal for anyone except a licensed electrical contractor to remove electrical, at least where we are it is never expected. I mask thoroughly, and have gotten pretty fast at it, and takes about a minute to tape a light.

Anything non-permanent, I always remove, just because it's easier to paint.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

The only thing I'll remove are plate covers and curtains, but it's someone else's job to out it back.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

Holland said:


> It makes a difference if it is hourly or straight bid. You could take a loss one time in good faith, and explain that in the future another arrangement will have to be agreed upon (either + hourly or /piece)
> 
> I they are replacing the towel holders it makes sense to do that before painting. Otherwise I tape around permanent. I believe it is illegal for anyone except a licensed electrical contractor to remove electrical, at least where we are it is never expected. I mask thoroughly, and have gotten pretty fast at it, and takes about a minute to tape a light.
> 
> Anything non-permanent, I always remove, just because it's easier to paint.


This is straight bid with a "small store" and "big store" cost, depending on square footage. The stores are pretty similar, with some smaller and some slightly larger than average. And we're on store number by 16, with 26 more to go, so the good faith to get the job is kind of moot at this point.

Basically, since the GC started having manpower problems is when this all started several months ago, and has escalated over the last 3 or 4 stores.

I have been using tape, and doing a pretty good job of it. They are the ones who started saying that most of this stuff needs to be taken down instead of cut in.

Thanks for the advice though. It's much appreciated.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I've been heard to say things like, "sorry, I'm not an electrician" or "sorry, I'm not a plumber" or etc. I'm lucky just because I don't get micromanaged that way and decide for myself what to pull or cut around. Your GC is playing with fire (maybe literally) if s/he wants to start having painters R&R things like electrical devices.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Tell them to take it down, then. Nobody works for free, and if they want extra they can do it or they can pay you to do it.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

Okay, so it sounds like I'm generally working from solid footing here. I'm happy to help anyone get the job done by pitching in and helping out when they need it. But I won't be taken advantage of or pushed around. If they're short on manpower, they need to fix that problem, not create another one by losing their painter in the middle of a tightly scheduled, multi site reno contract. 

Thanks for all of the input. I've been working hard at doing a good job, learning proper techniques and protocols, materials specs and usage. I put the time in to learn and the money back in for good equipment and help, and am pretty proud of what I've done over the last two years. I know I am lucky to have such a long and consistent contract through all of this economic uncertainty, and this has generally been a profitable relationship, but if it means developing a bad rep around town, I'd rather just let it go and let someone else deal with the BS as I am somewhat beholden to the GC's because I do almost exclusively small format commercial, not residential. I know how quickly word spreads around town and would hate to have to deal with fixing that problem..


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Just another thought; not only can you not _legally_ do electrical without a license in most areas, but doing so could result in a nasty liability situation should something happen - and most likely without any insurance coverage.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

What’s in the contract?


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

I do not take any of that stuff off and would not if asked. Switch plates yes, but a diaper changing station, crazy. I was surprised when a g.c. wanted me to stuff electrical boxes with paper so the electrician would not have trouble with paint covering the color of the wires. I did it but it also kept any small amounts of drywall dust from blowing out when spraying ,even after vacuuming.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

Holland said:


> What’s in the contract?


Contract specifies materials (specific manufacturer, color, sheen), refers to surface prep (drywall guy finishes the night before I get there, but "minor" dings discovered will be corrected), workplace safety, scheduling conflicts (due to the super tight operating window per location), insurance requirements and the like. There is no mention of fixture removal or installation. The GC's super is a bit of a roughneck and doesn't deal with the contractual or legal end of things; more of a ramrod than an administrator. Would rather spend a week arguing the point than just referring to the contract or hashing it out with the GC, who I signed with.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Throwin' Paint said:


> Contract specifies materials (specific manufacturer, color, sheen), refers to surface prep (drywall guy finishes the night before I get there, but "minor" dings discovered will be corrected), workplace safety, scheduling conflicts (due to the super tight operating window per location), insurance requirements and the like. There is no mention of fixture removal or installation. The GC's super is a bit of a roughneck and doesn't deal with the contractual or legal end of things; more of a ramrod than an administrator. Would rather spend a week arguing the point than just referring to the contract or hashing it out with the GC, who I signed with.


Have you asked for a few minutes to go over it. Let them know you want to hash things out. Make sure they give you enough time to air out the problem, and not just a 5 minute morning meet and greet...

Tell them it's not in the contract either way. Look for a mutually beneficial solution.

What does he get out of making you remove the fixtures?
Is it really a deal breaker, or can you find a compromise?


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

kmp said:


> I do not take any of that stuff off and would not if asked. Switch plates yes, but a diaper changing station, crazy. I was surprised when a g.c. wanted me to stuff electrical boxes with paper so the electrician would not have trouble with paint covering the color of the wires. I did it but it also kept any small amounts of drywall dust from blowing out when spraying ,even after vacuuming.


It's funny you refer to stuffing the electrical boxes. I dealt with that on a new build a couple of months ago. The newish electrician was pissed when he came in and found all white wires after my primer coat. I asked why he didn't stuff the boxes as he shortened and coiled the wires and he said, "I didn't think of it." I replied, "Wow, me neither", and slapped him on the back as I walked away. Fortunately, we had already worked together long enough that we new each other well enough that it didn't go any further than that. I'm curious to work on a job with him again in the future to see if he stuffs his boxes now....


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

I had a guy ask me to build him a sound-proof wall in a strip mall he owned. My BIL is a contractor so I gave him his number, like 30 seconds into the request. I remember the guy quickly turning that down and telling me he "preferred working with painters". Sure he did. Painters or anyone else who would be in over their heads that would have no idea how to bid such a job aside from _not enough._ Construction is rife with people who are pennywise and pound foolish and getting people to work out of their element to save a few bucks will almost always cost more in the end.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

Holland said:


> Have you asked for a few minutes to go over it. Let them know you want to hash things out. Make sure they give you enough time to air out the problem, and not just a 5 minute morning meet and greet...
> 
> Tell them it's not in the contract either way. Look for a mutually beneficial solution.
> 
> ...


I haven't had the opportunity to talk to the GC as he's not around much, the super is the on site guy. I spend almost fifteen minutes, one on one with the super three jobs ago discussing it with him. I told him all of the things we've discussed: I'm not an electrician, plumber, fixture installer, it's not in my scope of work, etc.... His number one point was simply that he was always shorthanded and that his guys are "running ragged", but he didn't press the point at the time. I thought we had worked it out. But the next week it just started up again. I've stayed my ground so far, and have just had him busting my chops over the phone after I've finished touch-up and left on the last day each week. Same thing every Friday, "I can't believe you left without putting all of that stuff up! We're behind schedule and don't have time for this." I simply respond that, "We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, it's not my job. Whatever staffing issues you're having, you need to talk to [GC] about it. I'm a sub, not an employee." He mumbles more and hangs up in frustration.

As far as time and materials, I would be looking at another half day of labor for two guys, along with having to have a full tool kit and materials like various drywall anchors, toggle bolts, electrical connectors, etc... Otherwise I could end up running back and forth to the hardware store several times depending on what I ran across as I was installing all of this crap at each location. Half of this stuff is hanging on by a prayer as it is; toggle bolts in drywall, different size drywall anchors that are stripped out, brittle or already broken light fixtures, etc... He apparently has had the project manager for the chain tell him that the stuff needs to be taken down and not cut in, about two stores into the contract. He's pissed that it's added to his list of 'things to do', and now wants to pass the buck to me. That's about as simple as I can make it.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Throwin' Paint said:


> I haven't had the opportunity to talk to the GC as he's not around much, the super is the on site guy. I spend almost fifteen minutes, one on one with the super three jobs ago discussing it with him. I told him all of the things we've discussed: I'm not an electrician, plumber, fixture installer, it's not in my scope of work, etc.... His number one point was simply that he was always shorthanded and that his guys are "running ragged", but he didn't press the point at the time. I thought we had worked it out. But the next week it just started up again. I've stayed my ground so far, and have just had him busting my chops over the phone after I've finished touch-up and left on the last day each week. Same thing every Friday, "I can't believe you left without putting all of that stuff up! We're behind schedule and don't have time for this." I simply respond that, "We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, it's not my job. Whatever staffing issues you're having, you need to talk to [GC] about it. I'm a sub, not an employee." He mumbles more and hangs up in frustration.
> 
> As far as time and materials, I would be looking at another half day of labor for two guys, along with having to have a full tool kit and materials like various drywall anchors, toggle bolts, electrical connectors, etc... Otherwise I could end up running back and forth to the hardware store several times depending on what I ran across as I was installing all of this crap at each location. Half of this stuff is hanging on by a prayer as it is; toggle bolts in drywall, different size drywall anchors that are stripped out, brittle or already broken light fixtures, etc... He apparently has had the project manager for the chain tell him that the stuff needs to be taken down and not cut in, about two stores into the contract. He's pissed that it's added to his list of 'things to do', and now wants to pass the buck to me. That's about as simple as I can make it.


If its not in the contract technically it's not your responsibility - although that's a slippery slope.
If it were me I'd negotiate for pay commensurate to work. In other words, I don't work for free.

You could even put it nicely... I would like to help you out with this, but I'm going to need to make sure we get paid for our time.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think not having a "cut in" look around the fixtures is a reasonable request. Often, natural lighting can make that cut in around the HVAC thermostat in the hallway look pretty bad. And , it will never go away!

So, requesting all fixtures to be removed to avoid this aesthetic discrepancy may be the only way to avoid, or minimize the issue when brushing and rolling. However, to avoid any lost time and potential liability removing and replacing fixtures, masking and spraying can be an alternative if the environment allows for it. Ultimately, spraying will eliminate all cut in issues.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

The following is the standard according to the MPI Architectural Painting Manual Guide Specification
Revision – June 2019
Section 09900 Painting


(3.2.3) Remove and securely store all miscellaneous hardware and surface fittings / fastenings (e.g. electrical plates, mechanical louvers, door and window hardware (e.g. hinges, knobs, locks, trim, frame stops), removable rating / hazard / instruction labels, washroom accessories, light fixture trim, etc. from wall and ceiling surfaces, doors and frames, prior to painting. Carefully clean and replace all such items upon completion of painting work in each area. Do not use solvent or reactive cleaning agents on items that will mar or remove finishes (e.g. lacquer finishes). Doors shall be removed before painting to paint bottom and top edges and then re-hung.

Edit: I might add spec note .(1) to the above standard as per the same MPI spec:

“Painting work shall be scheduled before the installation of miscellaneous hardware, surface fittings, fastenings, fixtures and trim by others including the hanging of doors and installation of door hardware (see 3.1.5 above). If such items require the removal, storage, and reinstallation, the coordination and onus rests with the General Contractor. Extensive touch-up painting necessary as a result of the installation or re-installation of such fittings by others after painting, shall be considered as additional services at additional cost to the Owner.”

I’ve always done the above mentioned. Items such as electrical, plumbing, natural gas/propane disconnect/reconnects, I’ll specify that those be provided by the client at no expense to my business.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If only the cost of living increases matched the MPI best painting practice guidelines. Which begs the question. Are painting best practices reserved only for a niche customer base willing to pay for the extra labor and liability?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

This entire discussion is a rehash of something that’s come up before; Do we, as painting professionals, work from a mutually agreed contract or decide to wing it based on the demands of the customer?
Simple answer would _seem_ to be that with a contract we know what we are expected to do and will get compensated for it. Winging it will most likely result in a reduction of our profit margin, possibly open us up to liability or licensing issues (by doing things, such as electrical, which we are not covered for), and the creation of a stress filled work situation. 
Personally, if I have to engage in a process that will result in the latter, the work is not worth getting involved in.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> This entire discussion is a rehash of something that’s come up before; Do we, as painting professionals, work from a mutually agreed contract or decide to wing it based on the demands of the customer?
> Simple answer would _seem_ to be that with a contract we know what we are expected to do and will get compensated for it. Winging it will most likely result in a reduction of our profit margin, possibly open us up to liability or licensing issues (by doing things, such as electrical, which we are not covered for), and the creation of a stress filled work situation.
> Personally, if I have to engage in a process that will result in the latter, the work is not worth getting involved in.


There's a couple of problems here.

A trade contract, or bid package, will often include a general painting best practice copied and pasted from a standard provided by MPI, SSPC, or PDCA along with the unique scope and specifications of a particular project. Therefore, how do you exclude a painting best practice- i.e. removing and replacing fixtures, appliances, etc.- and honestly say that you've applied the best of practices without having actually removed those items prior to painting? Aren't you just "winging it" at that point? Where do the ethics lay?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I think not having a "cut in" look around the fixtures is a reasonable request. Often, natural lighting can make that cut in around the HVAC thermostat in the hallway look pretty bad. And , it will never go away!
> 
> So, requesting all fixtures to be removed to avoid this aesthetic discrepancy may be the only way to avoid, or minimize the issue when brushing and rolling. However, to avoid any lost time and potential liability removing and replacing fixtures, masking and spraying can be an alternative if the environment allows for it. Ultimately, spraying will eliminate all cut in issues.


taping and mini-roller is also an effective way to eliminate cut-in texture (if the room is not being sprayed).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Holland said:


> taping and mini-roller is also an effective way to eliminate cut-in texture (if the room is not being sprayed).


You'll still have to cut in, or mask around a fixture, even if a mini-roller is used.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> You'll still have to cut in, or mask around a fixture, even if a mini-roller is used.


TAPE and mini-roller (nap to match big roller nap) requires no cut-in and leaves negligible texture.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> There's a couple of problems here.
> 
> A trade contract, or bid package, will often include a general painting best practice copied and pasted from a standard provided by MPI, SSPC, or PDCA along with the unique scope and specifications of a particular project. Therefore, how do you exclude a painting best practice- i.e. removing and replacing fixtures, appliances, etc.- and honestly say that you've applied the best of practices without having actually removed those items prior to painting? Aren't you just "winging it" at that point? Where do the ethics lay?


I think the difference could lie in the scope of what need to be removed. Typically in a residential project, switch and outlet covers, bathroom and maybe kitchen hardware, are examples. But if getting into more extensive situation as described in the OP, listing specific items (such as the changing station) should be done. I will typically loosen an electrical fixture in order to paint under it, but never would allow myself to be ever again be put in a position to be required to remove any of them. Excessive amounts, such as a bunch of recessed light cams, should be factored in.

Somewhat of an example, and one I learned from, was in a bathroom repaint job in an older home. Owner said she was getting a new light for over the sink, so to do a “good job” I removed the old one, sanded out the extensive paint line, primed, and repainted so things would look “right” when the new light was installed. Then the HO (in retrospect a crazy b—-h) decided to keep the old fixture and wanted me to put it back. So now I was in a position to reinstall something I had bid expecting a license electrician to do. And while some here would question why it might be such a big deal, here in Oregon you aren’t supposed to change a light bulb without a permit - and working outside the definition of your license is a good way to lose it AND incur a hefty fine. There is a big difference in my mind between removing a fixture and installing one. And all you need when you do something outside the limits of your license is a complaint from an unhappy HO and you can be screwed big time.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

So, this apparently opens up a can of worms when it comes to how we are all doing things.

I agree with the sentiment that there is almost no way to bid enough labor into a job that involves a lot of fixture and door hardware removalthat won't cause you to lose the job altogether in the bidding process. Because, the next guy won't include it and will come in much cheaper, but then will not be removing the hardware unless specifically directed to do so at the time of performance.

Either way, I finally got a sit down with the GC on Monday afternoon. I have also heard that the super has conveniently started telling the GC that there's been problems with my work over the last two or three jobs. Amazing since I've already done 16 stores and everybody including the store owners have been thrilled with the work.

I can pretty much see where this is going already, but I will keep an open mind and a closed mouth when the meeting starts. All we can do is go from there...

Regarding a nappy weenie roller and tape, the issue is that some of the fixtures are proud from the wall and you can see behind them at the edge. So even with tape and a small diameter roller, they would still need to be cut into the backspace.

And, my state is similar to Oregon. you step out of your lane, you can be in big trouble. Our guidelines specifically say that a non-licensed electrical contractor may change a light bulb or switch plate cover, but that is it. And as far as plumbing, don't get me started there...

I'll keep you posted on the results of the meeting. But I don't plan on letting my guy unload my van until it is over...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Good luck. Sounds like you have your head in the right spot. Hopefully the others at the meeting won’t have theirs up their a***s.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Redux said:


> The following is the standard according to the MPI Architectural Painting Manual Guide Specification
> Revision – June 2019
> Section 09900 Painting
> 
> _[Stuff edited out]_


I feel like such an amateur. Never knew such a thing existed...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Joe67 said:


> I feel like such an amateur. Never knew such a thing existed...


I would often reference the PDCA for residential painting and SSPC for industrial painting. I've only occasionally referenced MPI (Master Painting Institute). I believe architects mainly use their guidelines. I'm glad Redux referenced them because they do have great information.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

Joe67 said:


> I feel like such an amateur. Never knew such a thing existed...


I'm with you, I had no idea they existed. We have no real 'old school, multi generation' painting companies in my area to work for and learn from, so we're kind of on our own when we get into the business. I will definitely be getting a hold of these and seeing what they have to offer.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Throwin' Paint said:


> I'm with you, I had no idea they existed. We have no real 'old school, multi generation' painting companies in my area to work for and learn from, so we're kind of on our own when we get into the business. I will definitely be getting a hold of these and seeing what they have to offer.


The ability for the common man to access information via the internet is likely the greatest paradigm shift in modern history- despite the down side of social media.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Social media can be one of the worst aspects of the internet. On the flip side, easily accessing technical information is one of the huge positives.
Ex. - Bought four digital timer switches to control the four circuits controlling my 18 exterior outlets (it’s a Christmas light thing). Programming them was complicated and the directions they came with were horrible so I never could have programmed them by just following them. So, I accessed a direction video online and was able to get them running fairly quickly. At first I thought this was intentional but after going back through the printed info and comparing it with that online, I just think the video is a much clearer and more comprehensive presentation of the same material.
I also know I have gotten items that don’t even contain printed directions and instruct you to go online to get them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Social media can be one of the worst aspects of the internet. On the flip side, easily accessing technical information is one of the huge positives.
> Ex. - Bought four digital timer switches to control the four circuits controlling my 18 exterior outlets (it’s a Christmas light thing). Programming them was complicated and the directions they came with were horrible so I never could have programmed them by just following them. So, I accessed a direction video online and was able to get them running fairly quickly. At first I thought this was intentional but after going back through the printed info and comparing it with that online, I just think the video is a much clearer and more comprehensive presentation of the same material.
> I also know I have gotten items that don’t even contain printed directions and instruct you to go online to get them.


I agree completely. There is a tremendous value in the ability to view an instructional video accompanied with sound verses the one dimensional method of static print and illustration learning. Couple that with the portability of personal devices that allow immediate hands on action while viewing a video, the opportunities for DIY success is endless! Until something blows up of course.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I agree completely. There is a tremendous value in the ability to view an instructional video accompanied with sound verses the one dimensional method of static print and illustration learning. Couple that with the portability of personal devices that allow immediate hands on action while viewing a video, the opportunities for DIY success is endless! Until something blows up of course.


Pre-internet, I learned how to shoot pool listening to Willie Mosconi's weekly radio program. Good times!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Fman said:


> Pre-internet, I learned how to shoot pool listening to Willie Mosconi's weekly radio program. Good times!


Pre internet, I had to buy, or rent VHS instructional trade cassettes if I wanted to learn something out of my normal skill set. I had plenty of books, but seeing something performed on video helped a lot.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

So, that was anticlimactic. The GC and the super were never on the job at the same time yesterday, and both acted like nothing was up. I waited all day for one to show up while the other was there but they kept coming and going without crossing each other's paths.

On the flip side, when I showed up this time, the fixtures and accessories had been removed from all the walls and the place was basically ready for paint. I would take this as a positive sign, but it has happened before and I still got the "Friday phone call" after I had finished the job and left, about why I had not reinstalled all of the fixtures. I guess we'll just have to wait until this Friday and see what happens. Maybe I'll just turn off my phone for the 2 hour trip home this time...


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I think this is why anytime I do commercial work, I usually charge double what I would for a regular residential job. 
There's always a bunch more bullshit you have to deal with..


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## Ricks Painting (May 2, 2020)

if you use yellow frog tape you wont see cut in look as much. else tell them to pay you more cause shits gonna break when you take it off


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I think this is why anytime I do commercial work, I usually charge double what I would for a regular residential job.
> There's always a bunch more bullshit you have to deal with..


Amen to that. Just talked to another GC that I had done a job for three weeks ago with a full interior paint and open ceiling spray job. The business owner started moving all of their crap in and doing their propietery fixture/deco install and apparently destroyed almost the entire paint job with wall damages. Then they attempted to fix things up with drywall patches they tried to do themselves and paint touch up with chip brushes. 

The GC on that job wants to know what kind of price I can give him on a return job and how "painless it could be for the owner".

I haven't even got back to him yet because I can't wrap my mind around it. Life is not supposed to be this hard...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Throwin' Paint said:


> Amen to that. Just talked to another GC that I had done a job for three weeks ago with a full interior paint and open ceiling spray job. The business owner started moving all of their crap in and doing their propietery fixture/deco install and apparently destroyed almost the entire paint job with wall damages. Then they attempted to fix things up with drywall patches they tried to do themselves and paint touch up with chip brushes.
> 
> The GC on that job wants to know what kind of price I can give him on a return job and how "painless it could be for the owner".
> 
> I haven't even got back to him yet because I can't wrap my mind around it. Life is not supposed to be this hard...


Screw that. It should be PAINFUL for them. And in no fricken' way should it be painful for you. If the GC want
s it to be painless, then he can step up and foot the bill for the redo - though I expect he wouldn't see it that way - they never do.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Throwin' Paint said:


> Amen to that. Just talked to another GC that I had done a job for three weeks ago with a full interior paint and open ceiling spray job. The business owner started moving all of their crap in and doing their propietery fixture/deco install and apparently destroyed almost the entire paint job with wall damages. Then they attempted to fix things up with drywall patches they tried to do themselves and paint touch up with chip brushes.
> 
> The GC on that job wants to know what kind of price I can give him on a return job and how "painless it could be for the owner".
> 
> I haven't even got back to him yet because I can't wrap my mind around it. Life is not supposed to be this hard...


The risks associated with not meeting outcome expectations, in terms of not completely concealing damaged areas and potentially creating more problems, are too great for a fixed bid. They'd have to agree to T & M without limits before I'd have a Gnat's whisker of interest.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

CApainter said:


> The risks associated with not meeting outcome expectations, in terms of not completely concealing damaged areas and potentially creating more problems, are too great for a fixed bid. They'd have to agree to T & M without limits before I'd have a Gnat's whisker of interest.


That's really good advice, I appreciate you providing it. I will swing into the store tomorrow or Friday and see what the landscape looks like.


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## Throwin' Paint (Nov 17, 2020)

So it was Friday, as we all know, and the GC was on and off the job most of the day, bringing in end of job materials/fixtures, etc. Super was better behaved and did not gripe about fixtures and whatnot. Naturally, he had a fairly heavy punch list of nuisance things that wouldn't even catch the eye of anyone else, but I guess that was his way of still letting me know who was the boss. We'll take it one week at a time.

Thanks for everybody's input. I'll update you on the other job where the finished product was destroyed by the tenant before C.O. I haven't heard back on my T&M offer to that GC.


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