# Cracks everywhere



## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

Need advice -

I'm a GC in Dallas and just finished a remodel on a 1911 house. Hired a top drawer paint contractor - no shoddy work here - know him for years. He did his usual prep - dug out old caulk and filled with bondo - prime, paint - looked good. 2 months later, every miter joint in the original 1911 trim has cracked. It's an old house built on a Bois D' Arc stump foundation, so there will always be shifting. Clients parents live in a 1918 home in Chicago with no issues - but that's Chicago, and they don't have to deal with the black soil that we have to deal with. House shifting is a big issue all over Dallas.

I've left a message with my painter (he's out of town for the holiday - wish I was) so my question is do any of you guys who work on older homes have a fix for shrinkage and/or movement? Is there a product out there that will prevent this from being an ongoing issue? 

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed. Williams
Dallas, Texas


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

As you said yourself, shifting soil = cracks. I would think caulk would have imparted more flexibility than Bondo. If I think shifting or gapping is a potential issue in trim joints I'll employ a good quality elastomeric caulk instead of wood putty.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

RH said:


> As you said yourself, shifting soil = cracks. I would think caulk would have imparted would have imparted more flexibility than Bondo. If I think shifting or gapping is a potential issue in trim joints I'll employ a good quality elastomeric caulk instead of wood putty.


 Absolutely...Bondo can make a nice repair, but it has zero flexibility. It is not made to fill joints in woodwork. Especially on any large scale. You need something that has flexibility to withstand the expansion and contraction. As RH said, a quality elastomeric caulk.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

:0


RH said:


> As you said yourself, shifting soil = cracks. I would think caulk would have imparted more flexibility than Bondo. If I think shifting or gapping is a potential issue in trim joints I'll employ a good quality elastomeric caulk instead of wood putty.


:yes::thumbsup:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

EdWilliams said:


> Need advice -
> 
> I'm a GC in Dallas and just finished a remodel on a 1911 house. Hired a top drawer paint contractor - no shoddy work here - know him for years. He did his usual prep - dug out old caulk and filled with bondo - prime, paint - looked good. 2 months later, every miter joint in the original 1911 trim has cracked. It's an old house built on a Bois D' Arc stump foundation, so there will always be shifting. Clients parents live in a 1918 home in Chicago with no issues - but that's Chicago, and they don't have to deal with the black soil that we have to deal with. House shifting is a big issue all over Dallas.
> 
> ...


Top drawer painter


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

That's why most "Top Drawer" painters I know use Caulk! It's flexable. This guys a douche


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> That's why most "Top Drawer" painters I know use Caulk! It's flexable. This guys a douche


 
now that's not nice:blink:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Sorry  I just thought it ridiculous that a painter who is to be considered top notch would do this


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I lol'd


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Unfortunately your painter didn't give himself a chance, but even quality caulk cannot be expected to hold together if a house is built on quicksand.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

GC's and window repair guys?

I'm not sure I can handle it!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)




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## Floor guy (Dec 24, 2013)

epretot said:


> GC's and window repair guys?
> 
> I'm not sure I can handle it!


We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


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## claudiui (Sep 15, 2013)

Mad Dog Crack Fix


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Floor guy said:


> We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


Even more funny than the op.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

This thread must be a joke....if you don't want your miters to crack, then glue them, or better yet use a biscuit joiner....hack carpentry....and then a hack floor guy blames the painter for his hack install work!! Why can't floor guys learn how to mask......problem solved......f'n hacks!!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Floor guy said:


> We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


That just floored me:whistling2:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Bondo does not flex at all it will crack, I can see using a wood bondo if the crack is big enough but it should have been topped off with either Big Stretch or Tower Tech caulking.
I hate to say this but a top notch painting contractor would know right off the bat bondo will crack long before if stretches.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Floor guy said:


> We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


Maybe the carpet guys need to use a whole lot more caution when installing carpets. Most of us know the carpet installers will on occasion hit the baseboards and mark them up, it happens, if the baseboards are getting damaged it is not the painter it is definitely the carpet guys.

Edit

oil based paint like BM Impervo around here sells for $75.00-$100.00 a gallon and most stores around my erea do not stock oil based paint any more because of the cost and little sales. Myself I recommend oil but it is up to the customer if they want to spend the extra money on it.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Floor guy said:


> We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


I'm going to join "window repair talk" and bust all of their balls.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

aaron61 said:


> That just floored me:whistling2:


That cracked me up:thumbup:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

epretot said:


> GC's and window repair guys?
> 
> I'm not sure I can handle it!


And now a floor guy! Let the Games begin!:2guns:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

epretot said:


> I'm going to join "window repair talk" and bust all of their balls.


Cut their sash cords, they really hate that.:jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

EdWilliams said:


> Need advice -
> do any of you guys have a fix for shrinkage
> 
> Any input would be appreciated.
> ...


Stay out of the cold water ?


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## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow - this got out of hand fast. 

Carpentry work was done in 1911. If the miters were glued, the glue has probably lost it's stick by now. It's not hack carpentry and not hack painting.

New wrinkle - I put all new state-of-the-art HVAC in this old house. Gas forced air heat - no humidifiers. EVERYTHING is cracking - damn near every miter in the house. Red flag? It's probably a humidity issue. If I fill the cracks up with caulk now, it'll probably all just squeeze out once the humidity level gets back to normal and the wood expands again. 

I get to tell the client that it's probably the $$$$ HVAC system that's causing the problem.

I'm screwed.

Ed.


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## Floor guy (Dec 24, 2013)

EdWilliams said:


> Wow - this got out of hand fast.
> 
> Carpentry work was done in 1911. If the miters were glued, the glue has probably lost it's stick by now. It's not hack carpentry and not hack painting.
> 
> ...


Yay, this causes a lot of problems with hdwood floors as well. Problem is with hvac guys not knowing what there doing. They're worst than painters.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Floor guy said:


> Yay, this causes a lot of problems with hdwood floors as well. Problem is with hvac guys not knowing what there doing. They're worst than painters.


Gotta agree with ya there. We get a job looking good, then the HVAC equipment starts running, wood starts drying and shrinking, caulk joints start separating. Before ya know it the floors are buckling, the shoe mould is moving away from the base..............f'ng AC a$$holes!


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## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

The hard part is going to be telling the client that after he spent $$$$ on his new HVAC system, that now he has to spend $$ on humidifiers.

I can't really think of another reason why every joint in the house would blow up. I'll have to look at the 102 year old pine floors a little closer and see if they're starting to open up too.

Ed.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

EdWilliams said:


> Wow - this got out of hand fast.
> 
> Carpentry work was done in 1911. If the miters were glued, the glue has probably lost it's stick by now. It's not hack carpentry and not hack painting.
> 
> ...


Better to have the caulking get squeezed out than bondo cracking and failing. I would tell them to get a humidifier you can get them cheap enough. I have a Idylis humidifier (under $100 at HD) in my house not because of the shrinkage but because of how dry it is in this Sears and Roebuck house I'm living in.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

EdWilliams said:


> Wow - this got out of hand fast.


things usually do here.


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## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

Just ordered a "hygometer" from amazon. We'll see. It was a small investment compared to repainting the client's house. Not trying to skirt my liability, but I need all the info I can get to be sure I'm headed in the right direction. Actually, yes, if I can get out from under having to repaint his house on my nickel, then that's OK by me.

Ed.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Wouldn't this then fall on the HVAC for not specing the right unit for the home?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

EdWilliams said:


> The hard part is going to be telling the client that after he spent $$$$ on his new HVAC system, that now he has to spend $$ on humidifiers.
> 
> I can't really think of another reason why every joint in the house would blow up. I'll have to look at the 102 year old pine floors a little closer and see if they're starting to open up too.
> 
> Ed.


Sounds to me like you need to stay outta that "joint!":whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> Better to have the caulking get squeezed out than bondo cracking and failing. I would tell them to get a humidifier you can get them cheap enough. I have a Idylis humidifier (under $100 at HD) in my house not because of the shrinkage but because of how dry it is in this Sears and Roebuck house I'm living in.


Could be worse. Could have been a Fingerhut home!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

EdWilliams said:


> Wow - this got out of hand fast.
> 
> Carpentry work was done in 1911. If the miters were glued, the glue has probably lost it's stick by now. It's not hack carpentry and not hack painting.
> 
> ...


Thats a bummer. What was the old HVAC?
Big stretch claims 500% elongation. I thought SW has one that claims 600%?
I wouldn't worry about it pushing back out. Yeah its going to happen but not everywhere and not as ugly looking as black gaps.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> This thread must be a joke....if you don't want your miters to crack, then glue them, or better yet use a biscuit joiner....hack carpentry....and then a hack floor guy blames the painter for his hack install work!! Why can't floor guys learn how to mask......problem solved......f'n hacks!!


Yea those hack carpenter back in 1911 not using their biscuit jointer.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Toolnut said:


> Yea those hack carpenter back in 1911 not using their biscuit jointer.


I guess I should have read the op more closely.....the post struck a nerve and my reply was a knee jerk reaction. There is hardly anything I dislike more than showing up to prep a house where all the molding is barely tacked to the wall by a couple pin nails through drywall. What do they think is going to happen after a few door slams. 

The thing that really set me off though was the floor guy's response. As painters, we are trained to carefully mask and protect all effected surrounding surfaces from damage. If we fail to do so, then it is our responsibility to fix it. However, floor guys regularly come in right after we finish and scratch up jambs, base, and walls while installing carpet, or slop up stain on millwork while finishing hardwood floors. That really pisses me off.....


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## Floor guy (Dec 24, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I guess I should have read the op more closely.....the post struck a nerve and my reply was a knee jerk reaction. There is hardly anything I dislike more than showing up to prep a house where all the molding is barely tacked to the wall by a couple pin nails through drywall. What do they think is going to happen after a few door slams.
> 
> The thing that really set me off though was the floor guy's response. As painters, we are trained to carefully mask and protect all effected surrounding surfaces from damage. If we fail to do so, then it is our responsibility to fix it. However, floor guys regularly come in right after we finish and scratch up jambs, base, and walls while installing carpet, or slop up stain on millwork while finishing hardwood floors. That really pisses me off.....


You painters need to use better paint, not that crap contractor stuff that come s off with just a touch of a edger or a roll of Berber. And you should paint in the right order which is after we get the finish flooring down.,


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Floor guy said:


> You painters need to use better paint, not that crap contractor stuff that come s off with just a touch of a edger or a roll of Berber. And you should paint in the right order which is after we get the finish flooring down.,


Merry Christmas troll.....


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Floor guy said:


> You painters need to use better paint, not that crap contractor stuff that come s off with just a touch of a edger or a roll of Berber. And you should paint in the right order which is after we get the finish flooring down.,


I normally tell HO's to get the flooring done first because I know you flooring guys like to beat the hell out of the walls. I on the other hand am careful and protect every surface I'm not working on.

Isn't there a flooring forum you can bad mouth painters in? There's really no purpose in you being here.


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## Jasonthep8nter (Aug 7, 2013)

Floor guy said:


> We have problems with painters too. They keep using paint that gets scratched u.p when we install carpet. We can't get them to use oil like they should, they all want to use latex. Arent their any good painters left anymore?


maybe if all the floor guys would be more careful and respectful of other trades work there wouldn't be half as many problems would there,than you an the window guy an the gc can stop coming on here asking stupid questions bout how to fix stupid mistakes!


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## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

Jasonthep8nter said:


> maybe if all the floor guys would be more careful and respectful of other trades work there wouldn't be half as many problems would there,than you an the window guy an the gc can stop coming on here asking stupid questions bout how to fix stupid mistakes!


Jason,

That's funny, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you on this thread. You can choose to be a part of the solution or not. Your call.

If it wasn't for us GC's there wouldn't be much need for your service. How do you think these houses got built in the first place? You think a bunch of electricians and plumbers got together and said - let's build a house!

Be respectful of the other trades and maybe you will be respected too. Or you can be a jackass. That's your call too.

Ed.


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## Jasonthep8nter (Aug 7, 2013)

EdWilliams said:


> Jason, That's funny, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you on this thread. You can choose to be a part of the solution or not. Your call. If it wasn't for us GC's there wouldn't be much need for your service. How do you think these houses got built in the first place? You think a bunch of electricians and plumbers got together and said - let's build a house! Be respectful of the other trades and maybe you will be respected too. Or you can be a jackass. That's your call too. Ed.


if you reread what I said I was helpful do better work an you aren't contributing to the problem,how many times does the painter have to go back and fix mistakes you make, you say to be respectful to other trades why the hell do you think we protect everything masking etc. I'm sorry to say but you come on a PAINTING forum what did you think was gonna happen so I guess I will choose to be the jackass an continue to tell you to do better work an get better subs or not that's your call to just don't come whining when you don't hear what you want


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Originally Posted by *EdWilliams* 
_Jason, That's funny, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you on this thread. You can choose to be a part of the solution or not. Your call. If it wasn't for us GC's there wouldn't be much need for your service. How do you think these houses got built in the first place? You think a bunch of electricians and plumbers got together and said - let's build a house! Be respectful of the other trades and maybe you will be respected too. Or you can be a jackass. That's your call too. Ed._




Jasonthep8nter said:


> if you reread what I said I was helpful do better work an you aren't contributing to the problem,how many times does the painter have to go back and fix mistakes you make, you say to be respectful to other trades why the hell do you think we protect everything masking etc. I'm sorry to say but you come on a PAINTING forum what did you think was gonna happen so I guess I will choose to be the jackass an continue to tell you to do better work an get better subs or not that's your call to just don't come whining when you don't hear what you want


 
oh boy:boxing:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

and in the spirit of the season...


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I do pretty well without GCs


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## Floor guy (Dec 24, 2013)

Bender said:


> I do pretty well without GCs


Well, there's one thing we can agree on. Nowadays, alot of generals are just managers and just make money from everyone elses labor. Its been awhile since we worked with one who was any help. Its been awhile since we worked with any of them period and thats fine with us.

Generals were the main thing that got talked about before our companies festivus dinner yesterday when we did airing of greivances. Painter's were #2.


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## EdWilliams (Dec 23, 2013)

Next summer I will have been a carpenter/cabinetmaker for 40 years - 40 hours a week minimum. Lets see... that's over 80,000 hours I've got invested in this business. Only became a GC because most of the GC's I know wouldn't know a 12 penny nail from a gallon of Farrow and Ball. 

I believe in asking the advice of professionals and that's why I came here. Although with all forums, you take the good with the bad.

Thank you to those of you who answered my questions with good advice and professionalism. I appreciate it.

Signing off -

Ed.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I guess I should have read the op more closely.....the post struck a nerve and my reply was a knee jerk reaction. There is hardly anything I dislike more than showing up to prep a house where all the molding is barely tacked to the wall by a couple pin nails through drywall. What do they think is going to happen after a few door slams.
> 
> The thing that really set me off though was the floor guy's response. As painters, we are trained to carefully mask and protect all effected surrounding surfaces from damage. If we fail to do so, then it is our responsibility to fix it. However, floor guys regularly come in right after we finish and *scratch up jambs, base, and walls while installing carpet, or slop up stain on millwork* while finishing hardwood floors. That really pisses me off.....


Back-charging for the repair work does the trick every time. They may be stupid, but they are trainable.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Floor guy said:


> You painters need to use better paint, not that crap contractor stuff that come s off with just a touch of a edger or a roll of Berber. And you should paint in the right order which is after we get the finish flooring down.,


Ok so do you beat the hell out of walls and trim on houses that need carpet installed but not getting painted? If you do your a HACK. If you don't you need to learn how to do this in NC other wise don't come on a painting contractor forum and bitch and moan. We have done plenty of NC and 99% of the time our touch ups are because of little scuff marks not scratches or gouges. Some people need to take the responsibility they screwed up and not the painter. Grow a pair of balls and admit you screwed up.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Interesting that everyone seems to be having issues with caulk failing. We just had a problem with the 850 cracking out of columns on the back of a very large home.
(never an issue before)

I'm wondering if there might be something going on with manufacturing?
Some change in the process or raw materials??


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I am late to this thread.


So, a few comments after skimming that may have been hit already:

1. Humidity changes do sound like a prime culprit in this case. We always caulk miters even if they are tight. 

2. If you are talking the face of window and door trim, those miters cannot really be caulked. If those shrink, they are going to show no matter what. Once they shrink, you can put some caulk in there but it will not look good.

3. Good flooring guys do not wreck trim paint in excessive amounts. Bad ones do. We do not use contractor trim paint but we do not use oil either. In new construction, carpet needs to be last. In residential work, carpet goes first since we are not spraying.

4. Good tile guys do not leave grout all over painted trim. Bad ones do. Most clean up after themselves. Bad ones do not.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

aaron61 said:


> Interesting that everyone seems to be having issues with caulk failing. We just had a problem with the 850 cracking out of columns on the back of a very large home. (never an issue before) I'm wondering if there might be something going on with manufacturing? Some change in the process or raw materials??


Where's it manufactured? It's cold in a lot of places. A space I'm working a lot, not all, but enuff- the frames I caulked a few weeks ago have some issues. and that is a relatively small caulk line. it was cold in there when I caulked them. It,still is actually and now it's finish painted. when they get the heat running for a while I will fix. all kimd of little stuff goes on when a building has finishes going on and it's cold. It all comes out in the wash though.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DeanV said:


> I am late to this thread.
> 
> 
> So, a few comments after skimming that may have been hit already:
> ...


Quit trying to be reasonable - show off.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

What ever happened to moisture cure floor poly? So much better than water base floor coatings.


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