# So much rot.



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We looked at a home the other day. Doing our walk around every single piece of trim is rotted, I mean every piece. The HO says they had it painted 2 years ago (looks more like 30 yrs ago) All the trim paint is peeling or just falling off.

The HO said the last painter said he would just oil prime the rotted trim and that would help it from rotting more . I said no way can primer stop rot. I got a contractor over there and we did the walk around. He said it's close to 50k for the repairs if not more depending on what's behind the rot.. This home is massive and very detailed (only 2 colors).

The HO wants a price from us, I said lets get bids for the rot first and go from there.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> We looked at a home the other day. Doing our walk around every single piece of trim is rotted, I mean every piece. The HO says they had it painted 2 years ago (looks more like 30 yrs ago) All the trim paint is peeling or just falling off.
> 
> The HO said the last painter said he would just oil prime the rotted trim and that would help it from rotting more . I said no way can primer stop rot. I got a contractor over there and we did the walk around. He said it's close to 50k for the repairs if not more depending on what's behind the rot.. This home is massive and very detailed (only 2 colors).
> 
> The HO wants a price from us, I said lets get bids for the rot first and go from there.


Good reply Dave,

Company policy: "we do not paint rot"


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> Good reply Dave,
> 
> Company policy: "we do not paint rot"


We have a carpenter on our crew now but it's way to much work for 1 guy. Plus we can't loose him for the length of time it will take to fix that place.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> We have a carpenter on our crew now but it's way to much work for 1 guy. Plus we can't loose him for the length of time it will take to fix that place.


It sounds like a decent sized carpentry company needs to tackle it if there is as much as you say. PLUS there is always unseen rot underneath. 

Hopefully the HO will have learned a lesson about opting for a cosmetic coverup.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

It's calls like this that got us to branch out into doing more carpentry. I think the first one was ~15 years ago. We got called to repaint a house with hardboard siding. The siding was starting to come apart, so painting it would have been a short-term solution at best. We met with the client a number of times and developed a plan. We re-sided the house with HardiPlank and repaced much of the trim. They also had most of the windows replaced as well (by a glass company with whom we work). The siding still looks good, but has started to fade. We'll probably repaint the south and west sides next summer. 

If we had done a regular paint job 15 years ago, we would probably have repainted the place 2-3 more times since. OTOH, referrals from this client have landed us a ton of other work.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

It's a good thing he called you and not someone who would take advantage of him. Also kudos to you for telling him exactly what he needs to do. You keep good karma coming your way doing that. I do repairs myself but if it's a whole house of rotten wood I bring in a professional carpenter to bid on that.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Gough said:


> It's calls like this that got us to branch out into doing more carpentry. I think the first one was ~15 years ago. We got called to repaint a house with hardboard siding. The siding was starting to come apart, so painting it would have been a short-term solution at best. We met with the client a number of times and developed a plan. We re-sided the house with HardiPlank and repaced much of the trim. They also had most of the windows replaced as well (by a glass company with whom we work). The siding still looks good, but has started to fade. We'll probably repaint the south and west sides next summer.
> 
> If we had done a regular paint job 15 years ago, we would probably have repainted the place 2-3 more times since. OTOH, referrals from this client have landed us a ton of other work.


We pass on repairs a lot. The couple other times we thought we had carpenters on our crew they really sucked at it. The guy we have now I have known for years and he knows how to do it. We are trying to hire one more carpenter and then we will start looking at that type of work.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> We pass on repairs a lot. The couple other times we thought we had carpenters on our crew they really sucked at it. The guy we have now I have known for years and he knows how to do it. We are trying to hire one more carpenter and then we will start looking at that type of work.


The guy down in Deluxbury that always painted my parents house had a couple of carpenters on the crew, it worked very well for him, especially when dealing with someone as old and with diminished capacity as my mother. They did a LOT of repair work and really milked her. My brother would stop by and saw then screwing the pooch often.

we started calling the property, "Richard's Milk Farm"

But obviously one can be honorable, provide needed quality service, and make an honest profit.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Seth The Painter said:


> It's a good thing he called you and not someone who would take advantage of him. Also kudos to you for telling him exactly what he needs to do. You keep good karma coming your way doing that. I do repairs myself but if it's a whole house of rotten wood I bring in a professional carpenter to bid on that.


How much you wanna bet this guy actually gets the carpentry work done properly? Dave will never hear from this guy again:no:


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

That's probably true probably a complete waste of time going there but at least he did the right thing. Karma is gonna be on his side if he always operates that way. There is a reason why there are successful companies and unsuccessful companies.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Seth The Painter said:


> That's probably true probably a complete waste of time going there but at least he did the right thing. Karma is gonna be on his side if he always operates that way. There is a reason why there are successful companies and unsuccessful companies.


true enough


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I approach every job the same way I would if it was my own home. Fix what is needed the right way.

As of right now 25k in rot repairs. That is a crap load of rotted trim.

The HO said he was glad we had our talk and the contractor ready to go. Some time next week we will know how much and how long to get the repairs done.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

chrisn said:


> How much you wanna bet this guy actually gets the carpentry work done properly? Dave will never hear from this guy again:no:


These people dump so much money back into their home. I like customers who can afford to fix rot the right way instead of a band aide.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> These people dump so much money back into their home. I like customers who can afford to fix rot the right way instead of a band aide.


So the bozo who painted over it was just a plain old simple hack and not doing so at the urging of the HO.?

Sad when a HO is willing and able to maintain properly and some professional hack makes it worse by painting over rot. (can we assume correctly the previous painter was a franchise)

And we also assume the HO was thankful to you for pointing it out and directing him to the correct course . :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> It's calls like this that got us to branch out into doing more carpentry. I think the first one was ~15 years ago. We got called to repaint a house with hardboard siding. The siding was starting to come apart, so painting it would have been a short-term solution at best. We met with the client a number of times and developed a plan. We re-sided the house with HardiPlank and repaced much of the trim. They also had most of the windows replaced as well (by a glass company with whom we work). The siding still looks good, but has started to fade. We'll probably repaint the south and west sides next summer.
> 
> If we had done a regular paint job 15 years ago, we would probably have repainted the place 2-3 more times since. OTOH, referrals from this client have landed us a ton of other work.


Gough,

When you branched into carpentry/construction, were you able to immediately price it competitively in comparison to an actual Journey level carpenter/Builder's production rates, or was there a learning curve before you began to see profitable returns?

And, does your state require a particular license for that work?

Thanks.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Gough,
> 
> When you branched into carpentry/construction, were you able to immediately price it competitively in comparison to an actual Journey level carpenter/Builder's production rates, or was there a learning curve before you began to see profitable returns?
> 
> ...


John,

Good question. 

Actually, it was the other way 'round. I started out (48 years ago) in carpentry/construction and started to focus more on painting when I realized that painters (good ones, anyway) don't work outside in the rain and snow. 

In the states where we've worked, I've always carried a GC license.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> John,
> 
> Good question.
> 
> ...


That would explain your vast building knowledge. And even though I have a capacity to do construction in terms of concrete, basic tile setting, framing, plumbing, electrical, and so on, I do not feel comfortable enough with the little trade knowledge, production rates, codes, or materials in order to charge competitively. That's why I would rather defer that work to someone else.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> That would explain your vast building knowledge. And even though I have a capacity to do construction in terms of concrete, basic tile setting, framing, plumbing, electrical, and so on, I do not feel comfortable enough with the little trade knowledge, production rates, codes, or materials in order to charge competitively. That's why I would rather defer that work to someone else.


We do try to avoid things that might leak, fall down, or burn up, so we eschew plumbing, structural, and electrical work. Besides, plumbing and electrical have their own specialized licensing around here.

We got into exterior trim and siding by default. Nearly all of the other outfits were doing it strictly on a production basis: using sub-standard materials poorly installed. Things like #2 Common framing lumber for exterior trim, F/C siding installed contrary to mfg's specs, flashing details omitted, etc. TheY didn't want to take the time to do it right, so we get called in to do it over.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> We do try to avoid things that might leak, fall down, or burn up, so we eschew plumbing, structural, and electrical work. Besides, plumbing and electrical have their own specialized licensing around here.
> 
> We got into exterior trim and siding by default. Nearly all of the other outfits were doing it strictly on a production basis: using sub-standard materials poorly installed. Things like #2 Common framing lumber for exterior trim, F/C siding installed contrary to mfg's specs, flashing details omitted, etc. TheY didn't want to take the time to do it right, so we get called in to do it over.


It certainly takes some knowledge and understanding of materials and a little engineering to take on construction. I also understand deferring the risks on the more specialized installation. You seem to be well rounded enough in the trades to make your business interesting to work for. One of my favorite employers allowed me to do all of his drywall installs. It really spurred a lot of growth in me and the company.

Currently, I'm trying to wrap my head around building systems, primarily HVAC and controls. It's a little late in the game, but it keeps me interested in my employment situation.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> So the bozo who painted over it was just a plain old simple hack and not doing so at the urging of the HO.?
> 
> Sad when a HO is willing and able to maintain properly and some professional hack makes it worse by painting over rot. (can we assume correctly the previous painter was a franchise)
> 
> And we also assume the HO was thankful to you for pointing it out and directing him to the correct course . :thumbsup:


I know who did the last job and I'm not surprised they did this. These guys try to underbid everyone.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I wish I had some carpentry background. I would love to handle minor repairs in-house, but I know I am limited there. We call in a carpenter to price repairs when needed or do some epoxy repairs on minor stuff (if homeowner does not want replacement).


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## dmac (Nov 14, 2012)

Time & Materials for the rot repair sounds like the right way to go here. Convince the HO this is best for everyone and will get the quality job they deserve.

Water intrusion is nasty business and there are always plenty of surprises behind those boards.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

dmac said:


> Time & Materials for the rot repair sounds like the right way to go here. Convince the HO this is best for everyone and will get the quality job they deserve.
> 
> Water intrusion is nasty business and there are always plenty of surprises behind those boards.


Absolutely, there are some boilerplate "concealed damage" waivers out there, use one.

We've been called in to replace to water-damaged siding, only to find the Tyvek rotted away, the OSB sheathing totally black and crumbling, and moldy studs under that.

BTW, all that could have been prevented with $1 worth of #30 felt and 10 minutes of labor on the part of someone with a basic understanding of gravity.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I wish I had some carpentry background. I would love to handle minor repairs in-house, but I know I am limited there. We call in a carpenter to price repairs when needed or do some epoxy repairs on minor stuff (if homeowner does not want replacement).


There is one benefit to out sourcing repairs. The HO will be less apt to feel you are just looking for more work. 

Yes there are MANY advantages to having quality in-house carpenters, but we know that there are many HO's who are suspicious.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> There is one benefit to out sourcing repairs. The HO will be less apt to feel you are just looking for more work.
> 
> Yes there are MANY advantages to having quality in-house carpenters, but we know that there are many HO's who are suspicious.


Good point, although I think that is less of an issue if you work on a referral-only basis.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> There is one benefit to out sourcing repairs. The HO will be less apt to feel you are just looking for more work.
> 
> Yes there are MANY advantages to having quality in-house carpenters, but we know that there are many HO's who are suspicious.


The labor and materials will get marked up either way.:yes:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I agree T&M. No way are we going to get involved. I gave the HO names and number to call. I have also taken the contractors around the home for the HO. And no we haven't even measured this place yet. I could be wasting my time and not even land the job.

There are way to many butchers around here, hack carpentry at it's best. We have turned down jobs because of who did the work.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> The labor and materials will get marked up either way.:yes:


Goodness knows that I would never presume to understand what is going on in daArch's head....but I assumed that he was talking about the practice of true low-balling on the part of some PCs: going in with a low bid intending to recover the loss by selling extra work or overcharging for change orders.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> I agree T&M. No way are we going to get involved. I gave the HO names and number to call. I have also taken the contractors around the home for the HO. And no we haven't even measured this place yet. I could be wasting my time and not even land the job.
> 
> There are way to many butchers around here, hack carpentry at it's best. We have turned down jobs because of who did the work.


So you do you at least get a finders fee?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Goodness knows that I would never presume to understand what is going on in daArch's head....but I assumed that he was talking about the practice of true low-balling on the part of some PCs: going in with a low bid intending to recover the loss by selling extra work or overcharging for change orders.



Jeesh, now I'm cornfused about what be going down in my head.

But it soitently warn't that

Not nuthin to do with no low biddin.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Jeesh, now I'm cornfused about what be going down in my head.
> 
> But it soitently warn't that
> 
> Not nuthin to do with no low biddin.


Oh really?? Does this sound familiar?

"The HO will be less apt to feel you are just looking for more work."

Doesn't that sound like a HO's reaction to a true lowballer?

Before you answer, I would like to remind you that you're still under oath.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Oh really?? Does this sound familiar?
> 
> "The HO will be less apt to feel you are just looking for more work."
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with reactions to pathological lowballers. 


Tell us more about it :whistling2:

:lol:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> I am not familiar with reactions to pathological lowballers.
> 
> 
> Tell us more about it :whistling2:
> ...


We are. There are a lot of people that have moved here having fled the Northeast. As a group, they are the most suspicious type of client that's we've ever had. It can take years to break them of that habit.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I can understand, but I am surprised it takes that long to convince them it's really impossible to low ball those frontier tar paper shacks and mud huts.


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