# No love for the CertaPro's out there?



## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

I found this and at first thought it would be a funny look into some donkeys failed attempt at running a painting company. But really it wasnt funny. It was just sad. And kind of depressing. The response to the first post in the link is from the failed, former CertaPro franchisee

http://franchise-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=115


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I really can't imagine a business model where I hire subcontractos, pay them as employees and expect anything but a disaster.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I know there are many here that like to gloat about their huge success, for the most part I think that guy's experiences are dead on in this industry. I'd say the majority of guys that are 'successful' do it on the backs of immigrant labor that they mistreat and pay fecal matter for a tremendous amount of worker productivity. And then said owners make digs at lazy American workers, because they refuse to work their fingers to the bone for the lousy wages this industry pays - lousy was even admitted by that CertaPro Company - at 40% gross profit margin for what these guys charge that comes out to about $16.47/hr - from which you have to pay for company overhead and profit - so each worker brings in $658/week into the company to keep it going an contribute an owner salary. Wow. The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

plainpainter said:


> I know there are many here that like to gloat about their huge success, for the most part I think that guy's experiences are dead on in this industry. I'd say the majority of guys that are 'successful' do it on the backs of immigrant labor that they mistreat and pay fecal matter for a tremendous amount of worker productivity. And then said owners make digs at lazy American workers, because they refuse to work their fingers to the bone for the lousy wages this industry pays - lousy was even admitted by that CertaPro Company - at 40% gross profit margin for what these guys charge that comes out to about $16.47/hr - from which you have to pay for company overhead and profit - so each worker brings in $658/week into the company to keep it going an contribute an owner salary. Wow. The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.


I couldn't agree more about the slumlording of American labor. 



SeaMonster said:


> I work 4x harder than all my guys combined, and I make about 10x more than all them together


Though, I guess it could be worse....


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for posting that Greenguy. I agree it is a sad look into the CertaPro world. Hopefully others considering buying into that will find this useful. I know PT ranks extremely high in online search results. 
I ran into a past client the other day. He was using some company to help him find a print shop to buy. He had no experience in the print industry and thought he could buy a turn key operation and make money from day one. I was dubious to say the least. God help me I can't imagine why anyone would pay to buy a painting company! At least not one you have to give a cut of every job to someone else!


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Damon T said:


> Thanks for posting that Greenguy. I agree it is a sad look into the CertaPro world. Hopefully others considering buying into that will find this useful. I know PT ranks extremely high in online search results.
> I ran into a past client the other day. He was using some company to help him find a print shop to buy. He had no experience in the print industry and thought he could buy a turn key operation and make money from day one. I was dubious to say the least. God help me I can't imagine why anyone would pay to buy a painting company! At least not one you have to give a cut of every job to someone else!



Never understood the soundness of it either. Or business partners for that matter. Why would I want to open a business where I split the money with someone else? Unless that business partner is bringing a tremendous amount of cash in with him what does he offer that I couldn't just pay an employee for? Idk. People do dumb stuff all the time.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

GreenGuy said:


> Never understood the soundness of it either. Or business partners for that matter. Why would I want to open a business where I split the money with someone else? Unless that business partner is bringing a tremendous amount of cash in with him what does he offer that I couldn't just pay an employee for? Idk. People do dumb stuff all the time.


Sometimes it can be better with a business partner. Both invest in the beginning, one may have a better sense at the business side and one may have a better sense with the brush. 
I wouldn't say anyone is an idiot for doing so as it can be beneficial doing if either way. 
There are definitely some days I wish I didn't have to do this all alone. Have somebody there who is just as invested as I am who wants success just as much as I do and will work just as hard as me? Doesn't sound so bad. 

Yes you are giving up potentially more money to another owner, but if you think about it, that's two people's effort searching for work, half the time doing paperwork. If you were just a two man team one of you guys could stay on the job site while the other Is looking at jobs, meaning you wouldn't have to cut any days short.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

GreenGuy said:


> I couldn't agree more about the slumlording of American labor.
> 
> Though, I guess it could be worse....


Oh it could be worse....imagine a business owner who discriminates amongst different races of Americans for employment. That never happens :whistling2:

note to mods: ...will edit if needed


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

As Plainpainter mentioned, the numbers just don't work. The margins in this biz are tight enough without having to pay "royalties" to the home office. The CPP home office salesman are simply in it for the $$$ and nothing else. "The plan" sounds like simply a basic legal document to cover themselves and offer some basic biz advice to the franchisee. If you can find decent painters, it would still be tough but maybe you could make a few bucks - if not you have no chance. And whatever you do make would be exponentially higher on your own.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.



$13.39 isn't a bad number depending on experience. As a statistician you know good and well you're comparing gross and net numbers to enhance your argument 

That certa pro thread on the other forum was depressing, I thought I learned some hard lessons in life but that's an expensive way to find out "if its too good to be true, it probably isn't"


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I talked to a certa pro guy a few years ago an he offered me 30% of the bid... I provide labor/materials/comp/insurance etc etc ...he made a point to mention NO CHEAP ****.. an then he checks the job at the end .... I literally laughed right at him for a few min's an he goes ...''what? you haven't even seen our bids yet''............really??? really??? .......anyway after about a minute I figured him to have zero painting experience just some nut with a college background who bought into a pipe dream..


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> I know there are many here that like to gloat about their huge success, for the most part I think that guy's experiences are dead on in this industry. I'd say the majority of guys that are 'successful' do it on the backs of immigrant labor that they mistreat and pay fecal matter for a tremendous amount of worker productivity. And then said owners make digs at lazy American workers, because they refuse to work their fingers to the bone for the lousy wages this industry pays - lousy was even admitted by that CertaPro Company - at 40% gross profit margin for what these guys charge that comes out to about $16.47/hr - from which you have to pay for company overhead and profit - so each worker brings in $658/week into the company to keep it going an contribute an owner salary. Wow. The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.


I plead ignorance on the CP business model, but how is that even legal? It's certainly deceptive, since it's equivalent to a regular employee getting $13.39 -(13.39 x 7.65% and WC). Depending on the WC rate, that would bring it down to the same as a regular employee getting more like $10-11.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm >$3/hr for exterior WC alone.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Sometimes it can be better with a business partner. Both invest in the beginning, one may have a better sense at the business side and one may have a better sense with the brush.
> I wouldn't say anyone is an idiot for doing so as it can be beneficial doing if either way.
> There are definitely some days I wish I didn't have to do this all alone. Have somebody there who is just as invested as I am who wants success just as much as I do and will work just as hard as me? Doesn't sound so bad.
> 
> Yes you are giving up potentially more money to another owner, but if you think about it, that's two people's effort searching for work, half the time doing paperwork. If you were just a two man team one of you guys could stay on the job site while the other Is looking at jobs, meaning you wouldn't have to cut any days short.


But does this really play out well over time? In my experience, no. People change. People's needs change. And that's a good thing. But if you're splitting things say 50/50 Brushwork vs Bookwork, or whatever, it's not going to be too terribly long before one of you reaches or surpasses the other in your respective 'specialty'. At what point does that initially perceived equal division begin to tilt? Because you can 100% guarantee its going to. And now what? 

Or, better yet, what happens when your growth outpaces your partners abilities? You've done well after two years but the books and all the managerial grind are too much. You hire an accountant, a lawyer etc. Now what's this guy really brining to the table in a still equitable amount? 

Too messy. You need a book keeper? Hire one! You only have to pay them, not split any and every cent with them. AND you can always fire them if something goes wonky. Which will always happen.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

GreenGuy said:


> But does this really play out well over time? In my experience, no. People change. People's needs change. And that's a good thing. But if you're splitting things say 50/50 Brushwork vs Bookwork, or whatever, it's not going to be too terribly long before one of you reaches or surpasses the other in your respective 'specialty'. At what point does that initially perceived equal division begin to tilt? Because you can 100% guarantee its going to. And now what?
> 
> Or, better yet, what happens when your growth outpaces your partners abilities? You've done well after two years but the books and all the managerial grind are too much. You hire an accountant, a lawyer etc. Now what's this guy really brining to the table in a still equitable amount?
> 
> Too messy. You need a book keeper? Hire one! You only have to pay them, not split any and every cent with them. AND you can always fire them if something goes wonky. Which will always happen.


That's all a good points and I do know someone who got a big loan with a partner and after the first job the other guy bailed. 
But if you both have a plan, rules and regulations and can work really well with each other than there can be a lot of upsides. But with a lot of planning and discipline


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

you have to know how to work the certa pro system... it takes time and well....you get the point.....


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> you have to know how to work the certa pro system... it takes time and well....you get the point.....


 
no comment:no:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I can't sympathize too much with someone who would decide to invest into a painting franchise. Like wow! How could one even sell such an idea.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Oden said:


> I can't sympathize too much with someone who would decide to invest into a painting franchise. Like wow! How could one even sell such an idea.


The training is pretty intense for these owners....some are better than others...
There down fall is they obviously have no experience in the field....I've never seen there sales presentation but I can imagine its pretty awesome with the prices they get.....


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

How many PT Members have subbed for a CertaPro Franchise Owner?

Most of my work for the last 3 years has come from CertaPro in my area.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

oldpaintdoc said:


> How many PT Members have subbed for a CertaPro Franchise Owner?
> 
> Most of my work for the last 3 years has come from CertaPro in my area.


 
what % do you get ?


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## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

I have never dealt with nor do I want to ,but they advertising like crazy in my area on TV and radio ,and actually knocked on my Buddy's door who is a painting contractor asking him if he would like a quote ,I guess they didn't see his truck that's lettered up with his business.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> what % do you get ?


55% and materials come out of that.

I average $25 an hour.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I know there are many here that like to gloat about their huge success, for the most part I think that guy's experiences are dead on in this industry. I'd say the majority of guys that are 'successful' do it on the backs of immigrant labor that they mistreat and pay fecal matter for a tremendous amount of worker productivity. And then said owners make digs at lazy American workers, because they refuse to work their fingers to the bone for the lousy wages this industry pays - lousy was even admitted by that CertaPro Company - at 40% gross profit margin for what these guys charge that comes out to about $16.47/hr - from which you have to pay for company overhead and profit - so each worker brings in $658/week into the company to keep it going an contribute an owner salary. Wow. The worker on the other hand gets $13.39 - but out of that comes both worker and company side payroll taxes and workers comp, all direct overhead before gross profits. After you take that much money, you're coming dangerously close to paying minimum wage.


Could agree more, Dan. Have you seen my white cracker crew this year?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

That lazy Todd guy?


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Certa pro is the Walmart of the painting trade. The corporate big business in regards to our thing. They have the capital to advertise more than the small businesses that typically exist in this trade. It's set up for them to make money while everyone else struggles to make minimal wage if anything. $250k to start a franchise? For residential painting? I started my business with a 24ft ladder, 2 brushes and a bucket. 
They made their money off you right there in that initial "investment" I can do what they do if someone invested 25k with me. 
They do actually help us small businesses when I read the negative consumer reports/management experiences that give these awful reviews of their certa experiences.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> 55% and materials come out of that.
> 
> I average $25 an hour.


I've been with them for three years now and worked for two diffrent franchises. It is what you make of it......I don't need the work...I just don't turn it down for some stupid reason.........


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

MKap said:


> Certa pro is the Walmart of the painting trade. The corporate big business in regards to our thing. They have the capital to advertise more than the small businesses that typically exist in this trade. It's set up for them to make money while everyone else struggles to make minimal wage if anything. $250k to start a franchise? For residential painting? I started my business with a 24ft ladder, 2 brushes and a bucket.
> They made their money off you right there in that initial "investment" I can do what they do if someone invested 25k with me.
> They do actually help us small businesses when I read the negative consumer reports/management experiences that give these awful reviews of their certa experiences.


I don't think I have ever seen a CertaPro advertisement. Aside from online I mean


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a CertaPro advertisement. Aside from online I mean


I get advertising letters in the mail all the time, see them in magazines, and have recently heard them on WFAN 660 (New York AM Radio Sports Station) on a 30 second radio commercial. I couldnt believe it.  Big bucks to advertise on the Fan during Mike Francesa's broadcast hours.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> I've been with them for three years now and worked for two diffrent franchises. It is what you make of it......I don't need the work...I just don't turn it down for some stupid reason.........


 
no comment

again


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

GreenGuy said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a CertaPro advertisement. Aside from online I mean


You never listen to Mike and Mike on ESPN sports radio? I think it's a syndicated show that in my mind, is pretty big time. The Certa Pro ad there gets played a few times an hour at least. I also get crap stuffed in my mail box a few times a month from Certa Pro.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Carl said:


> You never listen to Mike and Mike on ESPN sports radio? I think it's a syndicated show that in my mind, is pretty big time. The Certa Pro ad there gets played a few times an hour at least. I also get crap stuffed in my mail box a few times a month from Certa Pro.



Nah man. We don't get espn radio here. Maybe it's just my distance from the nearest franchise. I think the closest one is about an hour away. Maybe further.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I had never even heard of Certa pro except on here, or if i had i didn't realize they were any different that the hundred other paint company's around. Then yesterday I was walking by the card rack at the local BM and saw a Certa pro card.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

they run TV adds around here all the time ..........''they even closed the gate so the colonel wouldn't get out''


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

oldpaintdoc said:


> 55% and materials come out of that.
> 
> I average $25 an hour.


OPD,

Is that 25/hr only while in the bucket? Or 25/hr including all your "non-productive" time - including office work, getting supplies, and all other hours you spend directly related to the work?

Also, what about WC, liability insurance, depreciation of tools (drops, brushes, spray equip, ladders, etc), vehicle costs, etc?

25/hr may not be too bad if one showed up at work, picked up a brush (company owned), worked 8 hours, went home with a check and didn't have any other work related responsibilities.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

daArch said:


> OPD,
> 
> Is that 25/hr only while in the bucket? Or 25/hr including all your "non-productive" time - including office work, getting supplies, and all other hours you spend directly related to the work?
> 
> ...


If he answers this question he's asking for a beating......ill answer it....

When your on a certa pro job you do what you have to do....I'm not getting into that...its a trade secret....lol...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

richmondpainting said:


> If he answers this question he's asking for a beating......ill answer it....
> 
> When your on a certa pro job you do what you have to do....I'm not getting into that...its a trade secret....lol...


Beating? No matter which way he answers?

No.

If he is making 25/hr before allowing for all the overhead and support time I mentioned, I would show him mathematically how that 25/hr will quickly translate to about 16/hr. From there it is HIS decision if he can live on that.

And if that is 25/hr AFTER all those other considerations, and he is living at the level where he is content, then all power to him.

My goal is ONLY for people to fully understand WHAT they are earning. I do not judge quality of lifestyle.


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## Those Painter Guy's (Jul 5, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> How many PT Members have subbed for a CertaPro Franchise Owner?


I have. 

Since I moved back to the area where I'm originally from 3 years ago, I decided to work for a few company's to get the lay of the land so to speak before starting my own company here. (I have since started my own company)

I worked for CP as an hourly employee starting at $15 bucks an hour which isn't bad at all for around here. 

I then worked as a sub and got 52%of the bid. Out of that 52% I had to pay for insurance, buy materials, and pay any help that I needed to use.

If I, or anyone else, ever refused the job that was offered to me, I would see less work and more crappy jobs when it was offered to me/any of the other subs who refused.

The guy who owns the CP thing here is a hated man, and he has burned almost all bridges with good painters in the entire area. All he can find are hacks, people new to the area, and the idiots who continue to sub for him at a slaves wages/agreement.

Seriously.... I can't believe how many painters here absolutely HATE him.

Last summer he hired a TOTAL BE-OTCH who had to prove she had a bigger swingin thing than everybody else. That certainly did not help matters at all for him either, as she fired almost everybody last summer and this is such a small area here with such a small talent pool.... HAHAHA!!! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Anyway I hear she's gone, but the damage is done.

As someone who has personally had to fix CP's screw ups from having bad painters do the work, I have literally told clients before:

CertaPro and a box of chocolates.... You never know what your gonna get. :blink: :yes: :whistling2:

LOL!


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc. 

Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.

I simply don't get it.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Could agree more, Dan. Have you seen my white cracker crew this year?


You're missing the point - I think you are in the minority of painting contractors out there. Most guys don't have an all american cracker crew paying the wages you do and dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's when it comes to insurance, wc, etc. And if they do, they got one hand in the commercial jar.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

As of right now I'm really to busy to sub jobs but I still do for some reason....but if a contractor isn't....its a good route to go...the way I use to see it was....you can do your own jobs and have a three day weekend....or you can sub some jobs and work 7 days a week...some money on a sunday is better than no money....there is a lot of tips and tricks to maling this work but I can work.....your not going to get rich but going from an hourly painter to subbing is a big pay jump.....and it will teach you a lot....


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I can't possibly be understanding this right... You basically buy the job from Certapro for 45% of the total and they supply absolutely nothing except the job itself? 

I buy jobs for another company sometimes that doesn't do spray work. They will offer me the larger exteriors, roofs, and other spray jobs they come across for 10-20% off the top. That can work out good sometimes. I'm thinking about buying a big roof job on a petrol bulk plant right now..... But 45%! That's friggin incredible! Do they even give you a T-shirt? 


I do see Richmond's point about using it for a filler.. Nice interiors in the dead of winter maybe, but I doubt they let ya be that selective about it.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

richmondpainting said:


> As of right now I'm really to busy to sub jobs but I still do for some reason....but if a contractor isn't....its a good route to go...the way I use to see it was....you can do your own jobs and have a three day weekend....or you can sub some jobs and work 7 days a week...some money on a sunday is better than no money....there is a lot of tips and tricks to maling this work but I can work.....your not going to get rich but going from an hourly painter to subbing is a big pay jump.....and it will teach you a lot....


Why not do your own jobs 7 days a week?


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

If you are only getting 45% of the sale price, and they underprice the job to begin with, you could be getting as little as 1/4 of the jobs actual value. Seems like it is a whole pyramid full of suckers, except the executives at the top of the CPP food chain who make money no matter what.. Almost sounds like the same chain of command as most mafia outfits, and the guy at the bottom is always the one taking the beating.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

y.painting said:


> If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc.
> 
> Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.
> 
> I simply don't get it.


Best business advice I've seen on here for a long time.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Carl said:


> Why not do your own jobs 7 days a week?


We basically are right....I'm busier now than I have been in the 8 years I've been in business but I can't turn down money..plus I always have a place to go if needed..plus who knows if this will keep up...I hired a few more and I'm up to 14 guys now....don't want to slip on my work....when I bring a guy on I promise them 40 plus hours . Its up to them if they wanna work it...


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## Those Painter Guy's (Jul 5, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> I can't possibly be understanding this right... You basically buy the job from Certapro for 45% of the total and they supply absolutely nothing except the job itself?


You are 100% correct.... Or in my case when I subbed for the CP here I got 52% of the bid. The only work they had to do was get the job. :whistling2:




wje said:


> If you are only getting 45% of the sale price, and they underprice the job to begin with, you could be getting as little as 1/4 of the jobs actual value.


Or less. The worst job I subbed that they bid was a massive two story deck with about a gazillion spindles..... for..... wait for it..... here it comes....

$600.00 

That means I got $300.00 out of which I had to buy the materials!!!

They told me in the shop before I went to the job that it was an easy 1 day job that could be knocked out with a weenie roller and a brush.

When I got there you better believe I was pissed. I called the guy (CP franchisee name withheld) and started going nuts. Luckily he was cool because I think he realized his idiot estimator really f'ed it up with the bid and so he paid me 15 an hour which is what I originally made when I was an hourly employee for him.

Ridiculous. 

I still can't believe there are still guys out there schlepping it for those kinds of deals with CP.


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

y.painting said:


> If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc.
> 
> Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.
> 
> I simply don't get it.


The way I see it is the sub they hire are not necessarely the best at managing a business and market themself but can be pretty good painter. If you don't have a good stucture (website, lettered truck, ...) and are not able to sell your jobs well, sometimes it's better to get 50% or 25$/h as a sub than doing some craiglist advertising at 25-30$/h or 99$/room because the only way you can compete is on price. Also, as a sub you don't have to manage the client relationship on the same level and don't have to run around all night to do quote, get paid... Also some people don't have the ambition or knowledge to grow a business. The line is fine between sub and employee. At the end of the year the paycheck might similar too or even better for a sub.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

daArch said:


> OPD,
> 
> Is that 25/hr only while in the bucket? Or 25/hr including all your "non-productive" time - including office work, getting supplies, and all other hours you spend directly related to the work?
> 
> ...


$25/hr ave is while in the bucket and picking up materials. I figure my time from when I leave home until I arrive back home. It does not include time cleaning tools which I do at home.

My Paperwork for CPP is very little no office work.

No WC because I do not have employees and carry a 1/2mil in liability. I am a one man show. Occasionally use a sub paid on 1099 and he has his own liability ins.

Write off all tools and equipment and would have them anyway for my own home repairs and maintenance.

Gota have a truck(van) anyway so no big deal there either.

Around here $25 for an employee painter is unheard of. More like $12-$18 and still need own tools and truck.

I have made as much as $42 an hour on CPP jobs and as low as $20.

This works for me but maybe not for everyone.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

daArch said:


> Beating? No matter which way he answers?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


From what I understand not all CPP owners pay or run things the same.

I happen to sub for a very good owners (husband/wife). Pay very fast and give bonuses at times. Just today he gave me $90 worth of Applebee's gift cards.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

y.painting said:


> If one works for CP, one takes a 50% cut and still has to pay for insurance, tools, labor, etc.
> 
> Why not, instead, invest that lost 50% into your own marketing for the 1st year. If you're willing to work for 50% less, then you should be willing to put at least that much towards your own lead generation campaign and not have to be someone's b.
> 
> I simply don't get it.


Because I do not like spinning my wheels doing FREE estimates.
Or selling.
Or collecting.
I am my own boss this way. I set my own hours. Take days off when I want. Go on vacation when I want.
I don't want to grow a business or work weekends.
I think this is the best of both worlds for me.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Good to see there are more subs out here other than myself


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I can't possibly be understanding this right... You basically buy the job from Certapro for 45% of the total and they supply absolutely nothing except the job itself?
> 
> I buy jobs for another company sometimes that doesn't do spray work. They will offer me the larger exteriors, roofs, and other spray jobs they come across for 10-20% off the top. That can work out good sometimes. I'm thinking about buying a big roof job on a petrol bulk plant right now..... But 45%! That's friggin incredible! Do they even give you a T-shirt?
> 
> ...


55% for me and I control how much is spent on materials.

The owner I sub for gives t-shirts, sport shirts, sweat shirts, hooded sweat shirts and He gave me a very nice Dickie jacket


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

wje said:


> If you are only getting 45% of the sale price, and they underprice the job to begin with, you could be getting as little as 1/4 of the jobs actual value. Seems like it is a whole pyramid full of suckers, except the executives at the top of the CPP food chain who make money no matter what.. Almost sounds like the same chain of command as most mafia outfits, and the guy at the bottom is always the one taking the beating.


I do not believe you are looking at everything there is to look at in this case.

Sounds to me like you have been drinking the cool-aid an going with the flow.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Oh! By the way. I only do interior work.

Not looking to work more than 5 days a week.

Not interested in growing my business or having employees.

This is what I have found that best suits me for now.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

oldpaintdoc said:


> 55% for me and I control how much is spent on materials.
> 
> The owner I sub for gives t-shirts, sport shirts, sweat shirts, hooded sweat shirts and He gave me a very nice Dickie jacket


OPD-

It sounds like you have a great set up. IT sounds like you have a good franchise owner you are dealing with, and still have the flexibility (without most of the stress) that most small business owners have. 

Now do you do any other work other than CPP? Or do they keep you busy enough?

How do you find out about your jobs? Do you show up at a shop and pick up a work order? Or do you know a few days ahead of time where you are going to be?

I ask because I am curious, not to criticize your set up or anything like that


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> 55% for me and I control how much is spent on materials.
> 
> The owner I sub for gives t-shirts, sport shirts, sweat shirts, hooded sweat shirts and He gave me a very nice Dickie jacket


We use the shirts a rags and toliet paper...lol


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

wje said:


> OPD-
> 
> It sounds like you have a great set up. IT sounds like you have a good franchise owner you are dealing with, and still have the flexibility (without most of the stress) that most small business owners have.
> 
> ...


Yes the owner I sub for is a very good guy. The lack of stress is the main reason I started subbing.

He does keep me fairly busy, but I do sub for a restoration company, another painter and some of my own work when a customer calls.

He tells me ahead of time what is coming in and then he drops the Job Jacket (work order and paper work) off at his Sherwin William home store.
He also drops my checks at SW. Sometimes I don't see him for several weeks at a time.

Most of the work I do is in higher end homes.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

One of my favorites is when we bid against each other....or when they get the job and then send me to still do the work....things get really interesting. .......lol...


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> We use the shirts a rags and toliet paper...lol


Any port in a storm.:whistling2:


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> One of my favorites is when we bid against each other....or when they get the job and then send me to still do the work....things get really interesting. .......lol...


Yes that would be very interesting. :yes:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> One of my favorites is when I bid against each other....or when the get the job and then send me to still do the work....things get really interesting. .......lol...


That is real interesting. What are the customers reactions when you show up?


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> One of my favorites is when we bid against each other....or when they get the job and then send me to still do the work....things get really interesting. .......lol...



What in tarnation are you talking about??


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

A guy bought into the CPP franchise in my town. He's from corporate America. My rep gave me his number when I was looking for work. The CPP guy told me he bids the jobs with a computer program( counts the doors windows sq ft etc) said they weren't the most expensive or the cheapest. Around 40$ hr. he said the subs get half the job. I was pissed what he told me he was getting pro mar 200 for ten$ cheaper per gal then me and just started in my area and I was buying from SW for three years. I guess the subs can buy with CP pricing. Not sure. He wanted to meet for coffee and I never did. I'm not saying that I wouldn't sub for 25$ an hr to feed my family if needed cause I would do whatever I had to. Fortunately I'm not not that needy and I continue to grow my business. It cracked me up when he told me that he tells the clients jokingly that they don't want him to paint and he tells them he can't paint.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> A guy bought into the CPP franchise in my town. He's from corporate America. My rep gave me his number when I was looking for work. The CPP guy told me he bids the jobs with a computer program( counts the doors windows sq ft etc) said they weren't the most expensive or the cheapest. Around 40$ hr. he said the subs get half the job. I was pissed what he told me he was getting pro mar 200 for ten$ cheaper per gal then me and just started in my area and I was buying from SW for three years. I guess the subs can buy with CP pricing. Not sure. He wanted to meet for coffee and I never did. I'm not saying that I wouldn't sub for 25$ an hr to feed my family if needed cause I would do whatever I had to. Fortunately I'm not not that needy and I continue to grow my business. It cracked me up when he told me that he tells the clients jokingly that they don't want him to paint and he tells them he can't paint.


The subs CAN buy with CPP pricing from my understanding, yes. BUT all the tax benefit of buying the material is applied to the CPP franchisee's deductions, not the subs. That's a pretty sweet little double dip right there. And pretty dirty. If I got slaved out for some bullocks job at those criminal rates and was also supposed to cover the material you can bet your bippy the materials would be coming from Wal Mart Painting Center and just dumped into a ProMAr 5 bucket. Suck it you robber barons! 

Actually I think Dollar General may have paint too. I'd definitley be doing some price shopping.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

GreenGuy said:


> The subs CAN buy with CPP pricing from my understanding, yes. BUT all the tax benefit of buying the material is applied to the CPP franchisee's deductions, not the subs. That's a pretty sweet little double dip right there. And pretty dirty. If I got slaved out for some bullocks job at those criminal rates and was also supposed to cover the material you can bet your bippy the materials would be coming from Wal Mart Painting Center and just dumped into a ProMAr 5 bucket. Suck it you robber barons!
> 
> Actually I think Dollar General may have paint too. I'd definitley be doing some price shopping.


I write all my paint off my taxes from certa. Jobs......I made my rep match all my prices with certa prices... I told him one I work for them so I deserve it...and two if you don't ill go to the compettior.....and I even got the other company to match sherwin.....take it or leave it......now my prices are pretty damn good..


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> The subs CAN buy with CPP pricing from my understanding, yes. BUT all the tax benefit of buying the material is applied to the CPP franchisee's deductions, not the subs. That's a pretty sweet little double dip right there. And pretty dirty. If I got slaved out for some bullocks job at those criminal rates and was also supposed to cover the material you can bet your bippy the materials would be coming from Wal Mart Painting Center and just dumped into a ProMAr 5 bucket. Suck it you robber barons!
> 
> Actually I think Dollar General may have paint too. I'd definitley be doing some price shopping.


Not sure what you mean by this? Not a double dip because CPP only reports your pay as 55% less materials.
Example: $1000
55% $550
$50 materials
= $500
$500 is what is reported for taxes.

As a sub my SW store lets me buy under CPP but pay cash and get the CPP price. I then write it off my taxes for materials.

In my area CPP gets good discount but not great. I have seen other paint companies get better here.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> Not sure what you mean by this? Not a double dip because CPP only reports your pay as 55% less materials.
> Example: $1000
> $50 materials
> = $950
> ...


Around here certa is one of the most exspensive house painters and gets the best prices


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> As a sub my SW store lets me buy under CPP but pay cash and get the CPP price. I then write it off my taxes for materials.


How gracious of them. And if youre just paying cash anyway why pay say $60/5 for the paint HE specd at SW at all? Just pay $15/5 for pant from Wal Mart (they may not even dictate your form of payment) and use it on the job instead. You just 'made' $45/5 on the materials cost. You gotta get it where you can right? I mean this CPP guy is, is it so wrong for you to? I wouldn't think so. 

The thing about slavery that everyone misunderstands is that no one, NO ONE, expected the slaves to work hard. They just expected them to work. I mean even slave owners of the past had a better view of labor practices than these type of contractors.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> If I got slaved out for some bullocks job at those criminal rates and was also supposed to cover the material you can bet your bippy the materials would be coming from Wal Mart Painting Center and just dumped into a ProMAr 5 bucket. Suck it you robber barons!
> 
> Actually I think Dollar General may have paint too. I'd definitley be doing some price shopping.



Spending extra labor time getting cheap paint to cover isn't exactly sticking it to the man.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> How gracious of them. And if youre just paying cash anyway why pay say $60/5 for the paint HE specd at SW at all? Just pay $15/5 for pant from Wal Mart (they may not even dictate your form of payment) and use it on the job instead. You just 'made' $45/5 on the materials cost. You gotta get it where you can right? I mean this CPP guy is, is it so wrong for you to? I wouldn't think so.
> 
> The thing about slavery that everyone misunderstands is that no one, NO ONE, expected the slaves to work hard. They just expected them to work. I mean even slave owners of the past had a better view of labor practices than these type of contractors.


It is "specd" in the homeowner contract on what paint to use.

On the second part I think you are way out in left field. Kinda reminds me of the Behr haters. They don't why they hate they just do.:whistling2:

K


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Gibberish45 said:


> Spending extra labor time getting cheap paint to cover isn't exactly sticking it to the man.


Why wouldn't it cover? Just mix in some glue or something (apply glue+markup to your job notes) Idk. Who cares. Just get it on there thick, put some fans in there, recoat it thick and leave while its still wet. Homeowner will be thrilled. What's she gonna do, obviously it's a paint failure issue. She can call the CPP owner and the SW rep and they can sort it all out. 

Of course you won't have any record of buying that paint at SW but who cares? Even if you did but it from SW in the 1st place you'd have no record of it right? Let them sort it out while you move on to the next job. If they give you any grief tell em you won all the paint in truth-telling contest two towns over.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> It is "specd" in the homeowner contract on what paint to use.
> 
> On the second part I think you are way out in left field. Kinda reminds me of the Behr haters. They don't why they hate they just do.:whistling2:
> 
> K


oldpaintdoc, I think trying to have a discussion with GG is kinda like hitting yourself on the head with a hammer.... it sure feels good when ya stop.:yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OPD,

seriously, I am happy for you that you have found a way to make what you need and free of stress. And I TOTALLY understand about not needing or wanting to grow. I'm not type A either.

just want to make sure all your numbers are in the right column and the appropriate minuses are being deducted from the appropriate pluses.

IF it were MY spreadsheet, I would take my yearly vehicle costs, divide it by the number of miles driven in the year and then calculate how much the CCP jobs cost me for vehicle operation (I record daily miles). I would do similar calculations for my liability premiums. 

I know we all need vehicles, insurance, tools anyway. But, think of it this way, if we were not working, we wouldn't have those expenses. They are legitimate overhead that are rightfully allocated per job. 

I know I get hung up on numbers, but it has made me understand what my REAL revenues are and has enabled me to understand what I NEED to charge per hour. It has also made me realize that I MUST charge more for jobs that are 30 miles away vs 5 miles away. I am not netting more on those distance jobs, but I do have to gross more.

I'm not challenging your process, just hoping you're fully aware of your numbers.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

daArch said:


> OPD,
> 
> seriously, I am happy for you that you have found a way to make what you need and free of stress. And I TOTALLY understand about not needing or wanting to grow. I'm not type A either.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. I see the number one error/ommission with owner-operators book keeping is the improper calculations of true and actual costs. Everything has a price and that price must be passed on to the customer. Everything. Every customer. No exceptions. 

Sure you'd have a cell phone anyway but if you use it for work even ONCE it needs to be applied. Obviously not the entire monthly bill (say $150) but that monthly amount divided by the number of working days in a month (say 24) and an amount for the depreciation of the phone itself (say $40). Then take this amount and multiply it by say 75% (0.75) which is your markup (yep, you mark this up too. You mark EVERYTHING up!) Add your markup to your monthly cost and divide by 24 and this will give you the REAL cost of your phone to your business every working day of that month and what you need to charge every day to cover that and make money for yourself. The equation works out like this btw 
$150+$40=$190•0.75= $142.50+$190=$332/24= $13.84. 

This is the daily cost of your cellphone. This number must be met every day. This is a very fair number. So you bid a 4 day job. Included in your overhead in that bid needs to be exactly $55.36. Not less and not more. THIS is your number for the phone. Now you do the same to EVERYTHING else you use for the job. Your gas, your depreciation. All marked up. Your lunch. Your Kleenex, the soap you buy for the shop bathroom. The toilet paper. Every single tiny item. 

That's how you make the freakin donuts


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm sure glad you are not my accountant...

Pat


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

My favorite part is when they markup everything by 75 percent and then call this your 'real' costs. Yea, real after the real costs are inflated by 75 percent.


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> Absolutely. I see the number one error/ommission with owner-operators book keeping is the improper calculations of true and actual costs. Everything has a price and that price must be passed on to the customer. Everything. Every customer. No exceptions.
> 
> Sure you'd have a cell phone anyway but if you use it for work even ONCE it needs to be applied. Obviously not the entire monthly bill (say $150) but that monthly amount divided by the number of working days in a month (say 24) and an amount for the depreciation of the phone itself (say $40). Then take this amount and multiply it by say 75% (0.75) which is your markup (yep, you mark this up too. You mark EVERYTHING up!) Add your markup to your monthly cost and divide by 24 and this will give you the REAL cost of your phone to your business every working day of that month and what you need to charge every day to cover that and make money for yourself. The equation works out like this btw
> $150+$40=$190&#149;0.75= $142.50+$190=$332/24= $13.84.
> ...


Your paying too much for a cellphone per month.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Carl said:


> My favorite part is when they markup everything by 75 percent and then call this your 'real' costs. Yea, real after the real costs are inflated by 75 percent.



Everyone's % for markup is different. Mine is actually much higher than 75%. Why do you view it as 'inflated'? 

When you do or sell something (ANYTHING) for only what it costs you that is called charity. It's perfectly fine to give to charity and to operate a charity. But I thought this contracting thing was about business. And business is about your making money. Everything in the world of commerce is marked up. It's really not anything new here. 

If I apply my 'inflated' costs only arbitrarily or am willing to negotiate them then how I can I, in turn, pay for them without breaking even? Breaking even is a terrible business strategy. You should break even on exactly 0 things. You should make money on exactly 100% of things.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> Everyone's % for markup is different. Mine is actually much higher than 75%..



You're not counting all of your expenses then or you wouldn't be winning jobs.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

GreenGuy said:


> Everyone's % for markup is different. Mine is actually much higher than 75%. Why do you view it as 'inflated'?
> 
> When you do or sell something (ANYTHING) for only what it costs you that is called charity. It's perfectly fine to give to charity and to operate a charity. But I thought this contracting thing was about business. And business is about your making money. Everything in the world of commerce is marked up. It's really not anything new here.
> 
> If I apply my 'inflated' costs only arbitrarily or am willing to negotiate them then how I can I, in turn, pay for them without breaking even? Breaking even is a terrible business strategy. You should break even on exactly 0 things. You should make money on exactly 100% of things.


Well, it's fine how you choose to justify what you charge, what you mark-up, how you decide to do your costs for your business. But, if I don't do this the way you describe, it certainly doesn't mean I'm doing it for charity or that I'm doing anything for free. I mean really, it makes perfect sense to me that no matter what in my life, I'm going to have a phone. Why should I shove 13 dollars per day up the butt of my customer and call this fair business practices if I don't view it this way? And then you want me to add in the toilet paper as well? I'm certainly wiping my butt every day as well, regardless of whether I'm working or not....right?


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

First, how do you know I am paying too much? Nowhere did I describe what my plan and options were. Don't tell me, PLEASE DON'T TELL ME, you're one of those dreaded 'I'm only looking for the lowest price' type of shoppers that everyone on here complains so much about. 

What if I told you that $150/month pays for 3 phones w/ unlimited text/talk and 1 iPhone with tethering. Now I tell you that the other 3 phones I provide to my top guys so they have a company phone I can always reach them on? Now what if I told you the tethering service allows me to use my laptop anywhere I get cellphone coverage to use the Internet. To email estimates. To pay bills. To order materials. 

Now what if I tell you I pay those 3 guys $0.25 less per hour than I would had they chosen not to accept the phones? That equals $30 per week/$120 per month that they've contributed to the company phone service that they're also free to use as their own. This makes my phone cost roughly $30/month. Just because now I've mitigated some of the cost it does not mean that ALL of the cost is not ALWAYS still present. 

But regardless I'm sure you can see how there is a LOT of value (and opportunity for the company) in that $150/month. I'm sure you can see how a markup is MORE than applicable. And Im sure you can see how if everything were broken down this way you would have the opportunity to not lose money on anything and to hopefully make a lot more money. 

The above scenarios are not true for me by the way. I don't have the guys and the 4 phones etc. But what is true is that if I'll never get to that position of having those employees, etc without applying that markup now. And to every job. Every time. 



MKap said:


> Your paying too much for a cellphone per month.


EXACTLY!!! While I've shown how I don't believe this earlier what you've said it brilliant. If I were to begin thinking I need to lower the price of my quotes because I was out of touch with the market one way I could do that would be by getting a cheaper phone plan. As I have passed that markup onto the customer I can now pass that savings onto them. So instead of looking to increase productions, reduce quality of materials, reduce labor force to lower my prices I can look to easier things I may be too top heavy on. This is how one keeps their overhead 'low' and it's the ONLY thing to look into if you'd like to charge less money.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Gibberish45 said:


> You're not counting all of your expenses then or you wouldn't be winning jobs.


I'm not sure I understand


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Carl said:


> Well, it's fine how you choose to justify what you charge, what you mark-up, how you decide to do your costs for your business. But, if I don't do this the way you describe, it certainly doesn't mean I'm doing it for charity or that I'm doing anything for free. I mean really, it makes perfect sense to me that no matter what in my life, I'm going to have a phone. Why should I shove 13 dollars per day up the butt of my customer and call this fair business practices if I don't view it this way? And then you want me to add in the toilet paper as well? I'm certainly wiping my butt every day as well, regardless of whether I'm working or not....right?



If you weren't working I'm not sure you would still have a phone. But regardless why you should be shoving it up their butt is because it allows you to distribute your costs among all your customers in a tangible way. What that money is representing is your time and materials spent even being able to offer them that great paint job in the first place. So your free estimates are now paying you. So your time spent driving is now paying you. So your time spent on the phone talking to them is now paying you. So you can take that extra time on the job when you need to to give them that next level service. So you can toss in an extra 'for free' and not lose money. So you can get that overnight shipping because your dog ate all your business cards. So you can pay your employees more. So you can cover your bond on your next big job. So you can sponsor a little league team and buy their uniforms. So you can get a new phone twice in 3 days because yours got destroyed on the job. The list is infinite. 

Yet, for as greedy as I obviously am, nowhere on there did I list anything for me. Everything I listed in fact goes directly back into providing the customer with exactly what they're paying for in the first place: that great experience with that great quality.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> I'm not sure I understand


If you are marking up 100% from what you believe to be your cost than you are not calculating your actual cost correctly or you would not be winning bids. I'm not aware of any industry that makes that kind of profit (maybe fireworks or ice cream?) 

Your own pay should be included along with daily overhead (insurance, vehicles, rent, utilities, taxes, etc.) and of course paint and materials. If you account for every red cent than a 100% markup would price you out of work.

If you really are doing it right and still staying busy with 100% mark up than I'm moving to your city next year buddy!


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

GreenGuy said:


> If you weren't working I'm not sure you would still have a phone. But regardless why you should be shoving it up their butt is because it allows you to distribute your costs among all your customers in a tangible way. What that money is representing is your time and materials spent even being able to offer them that great paint job in the first place. So your free estimates are now paying you. So your time spent driving is now paying you. So your time spent on the phone talking to them is now paying you. So you can take that extra time on the job when you need to to give them that next level service. So you can toss in an extra 'for free' and not lose money. So you can get that overnight shipping because your dog ate all your business cards. So you can pay your employees more. So you can cover your bond on your next big job. So you can sponsor a little league team and buy their uniforms. So you can get a new phone twice in 3 days because yours got destroyed on the job. The list is infinite.
> 
> Yet, for as greedy as I obviously am, nowhere on there did I list anything for me. Everything I listed in fact goes directly back into providing the customer with exactly what they're paying for in the first place: that great experience with that great quality.


That sounds great! That is, until you have added into your costs everything you could think of under the sun, marked up and now your prices are so high you are sitting at home anyway...with no phone.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Arguing over imaginary numbers is humorous. And since we can't use specifics, it's a waste of time.

Until we are allowed to compare each others balance sheet in gory detail, you might as well be talking about warp drive propulsion systems. It's all vague theory.

We wouldn't want the public to catch on though...


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> First, how do you know I am paying too much? Nowhere did I describe what my plan and options were. Don't tell me, PLEASE DON'T TELL ME, you're one of those dreaded 'I'm only looking for the lowest price' type of shoppers that everyone on here complains so much about.
> 
> What if I told you that $150/month pays for 3 phones w/ unlimited text/talk and 1 iPhone with tethering. Now I tell you that the other 3 phones I provide to my top guys so they have a company phone I can always reach them on? Now what if I told you the tethering service allows me to use my laptop anywhere I get cellphone coverage to use the Internet. To email estimates. To pay bills. To order materials.
> 
> ...


Well I appreciate the response, but it wasn't that serious. I think your over thinking my post a little and wasted 20 mins of unbillable office time. 
And no I'm not a low price shopper..I understand the concept of you get what you pay for...it's kinda what I do for a living. You don't make a living painting being the lowest bidder. 

I get that if your a one man show then your overhead is different and need to charge more, with less people/no one else other than u producing the work. 

From what I read it seemed to me you were marking up your overhead costs and making money charging customers on cell phones and Kleenex.
I'm probably wrong and just didnt get the way you explained it so mark it up to a misunderstanding.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

MKap said:


> Well I appreciate the response, but it wasn't that serious. I think your over thinking my post a little and wasted 20 mins of unbillable office time.
> And no I'm not a low price shopper..I understand the concept of you get what you pay for...it's kinda what I do for a living. You don't make a living painting being the lowest bidder.
> 
> I get that if your a one man show then your overhead is different and need to charge more, with less people/no one else other than u producing the work.
> ...


Lol. Exactly man. The one man show, especially the one whos just picking up sidework sparingly (me), doesn't have nearly the overhead the guy with the huge shop does. And it's all about the EVEN and appropriate distribution of your costs. 

If my car payment broke down to $10 a day I wouldn't charge the full $80 for transportation for a 4 day job. I don't use my car constantly on the job. I'd break it down for the amount of time appropriate. So say for this job I use my car a total of 5.5 hours. Including my outrageous markups on the car it would be a whopping $6.60 they'd get charged. Wow. Pretty brutal. After my insurance and gas usage (and evil markup) they'd likely be at about $39. Total. For a 4 day job. That's what I would have to tack on for vehicle usage. Roughly $8/hr what I get paid to drive to and for their house, get gas etc. Does this seem unreasonable? Really? $10/day? Seems fair to me.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Green - Sorry bud, I know you came here put a couple of quarters in and won a little bit, feeling good about yourself you decided to keep playing, now your in the hole trying to dig you self out and you just getting deeper and deeper in the whole. It's quite obvious you have no idea what your talking about. You drive a car, most here have trucks and vans, your post about Aura was silly, and your business skills are ridiculous. 

You should have quite while you were ahead. 

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

MKap said:


> so mark it up to a misunderstanding.


By how much? :jester:


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

PatsPainting said:


> Green - Sorry bud, I know you came here put a couple of quarters in and won a little bit, feeling good about yourself you decided to keep playing, now your in the hole trying to dig you self out and you just getting deeper and deeper in the whole. It's quite obvious you have no idea what your talking about. You drive a car, most here have trucks and vans, your post about Aura was silly, and your business skills are ridiculous.
> 
> You should have quite while you were ahead.
> 
> Pat


Ooohhh. Mr Kitty have him some claws? Peer pressure and everything? Not in the 'write my proposals on a napkin' club because I don't drive a truck or van? A brand new CRV isn't good enough for a hack like me? Doesn't convey that professional image? Doesn't instill any confidence that maybe, since I can make a car payment on time and have good enough credit to buy one, I may also be able do be depended on to paint your house? You need mr dressed all in whites like Pat in his truck or van to help you out instead? 

Maybe we don't want the same things out of life. Or have the same approaches to get there. Or share very many of the same principles. But we've all got needs. And I think you may need a drink.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

gibberish45 said:


> by how much? :jester:


 
150%


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gibberish45 said:


> You're not counting all of your expenses then or you wouldn't be winning jobs.


It's no wonder we battle to make money .. It was so much better years gone by so much better. I can't stress enough take a business course learn what fixed and variable overhead is . Do you know your costs? Your break even numbers? Retirement account health insurance disability insurance what happens if you get hurt??? How do you arrive at this miraculous $25 dollar an hr number. Check these sites out for help. 
http://www.proofman.com/ http://www.evergreentech.net/ I'm not bashing a guy trying to make a living nor do I disagree with Pat and Green on points made I'm always willing to learn but the more we know about the business side and estimating the better for us. 

As for CP I plead the fifth sorry nothing good to say in my experience I have a former employee of them working for me know. I'm sure there are some good owners but I've not run into one.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

In another thread, there was discussions about remaining respectful towards others, NOT making it personal.

The subject of overhead and how it is calculated and appropriated is important, let's not cause an important thread to be closed due to personal attacks.

Disagreements are good, but let's keep our opinions of others to ourselves. 

This thread was starting to degrade. Let's ALL check ourselves. 

thanks


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> I'm sure glad you are not my accountant...
> 
> Pat


What's the markup % on hand cuffs?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> It's no wonder we battle to make money .. It was so much better years gone by so much better. I can't stress enough take a business course learn what fixed and variable overhead is . Do you know your costs? Your break even numbers? Retirement account health insurance disability insurance what happens if you get hurt??? How do you arrive at this miraculous $25 dollar an hr number. Check these sites out for help.
> http://www.proofman.com/ http://www.evergreentech.net/ I'm not bashing a guy trying to make a living nor do I disagree with Pat and Green on points made I'm always willing to learn but the more we know about the business side and estimating the better for us.


Who said $25/hr? The only thing I've said is that if someone is adding 100% to what they think is their cost they are almost surely counting gross profit, not net.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Certa might be screwing over its subs (and its HOs) but its no different then hundreds of ignorant, wannabe '2 fukcs and a truck' outfits.

It sounds like they are charging a solid, competitive rate for repaints and what is wrong with a man who makes $15.00 an hour with 0 write offs wanting to hustle $25.00?

Jesus, you guys would bitch if I kicked you in the ass with a new boot


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

This is better than ****.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

daArch said:


> OPD,
> 
> seriously, I am happy for you that you have found a way to make what you need and free of stress. And I TOTALLY understand about not needing or wanting to grow. I'm not type A either.
> 
> ...


You are correct. My $25 hr is a gross #.

But hey I am happy and it sure bets working for the man! :yes::yes::yes:

I am loving living.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> You are correct. My $25 hr is a gross #.
> 
> But hey I am happy and it sure bets working for the man! :yes::yes::yes:
> 
> I am loving living.


Thanks for that post OPD, because that's what it's all about.
I knew you were a happy guy already since you have a banjo in your avatar.:thumbup:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

This thread reminds me of the movie "Cocktails" (Tom Cruise).
Theory vs. Reality.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

it started off good and turned into some financial talk..... whatever is left at the end of the year is mine.....keeps it simple.....


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

As much as its hard to grow a business at 25$ an hr or buy a new vehicle when the old one dies, how many people out there are working ordinary jobs at 15-20$ an hr if there lucky and they still have to pay for and drive a car to work and they can't even write it off. I think that's why a lot if guys start doing construction and painting. The way they see it if they can gross a grand a week and bring home say 750$ after taxes, its better than a regular job. Make your own hours. liability is only 500$ a year or so. The wife's job covers the health insurance so no need to worry about that. Make no mistake. It's still a job though not a business.


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## BuckeyePainter (Feb 14, 2014)

I realize this is an old thread, but I'll throw in my .02. CertaPro is ok for filler work. That's what I use it for. As far as making your entire yearly income off them, eh...Idk. However, I will admit they're a little over zealous with the constant barrage of advertising. But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

BuckeyePainter said:


> I realize this is an old thread, but I'll throw in my .02. CertaPro is ok for filler work. That's what I use it for. As far as making your entire yearly income off them, eh...Idk. However, I will admit they're a little over zealous with the constant barrage of advertising. But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


Its an investment....Not a painting company. ...lots of advertising means big return....


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Around here there's a few 'franchise' companies. I'd have to look and see if Certa Pro is one of them. I know we have College Pro & Student Works which are basically the same thing. 
It's not just painting franchises either. Just Saturday I got the aeration guy try to sell me on aerating my lawn. Was one of those outfits where a guy drops off 10 guys and aerators in 10 different neighbourhoods going door to door looking for a sale. Guy was at the top of the street at 8pm waiting for a ride. Neighbours I talked to think he got 1 maybe 2 jobs that day at $80. Told me he was a University student blah blah blah, aren't they all. In hindsite I should have offered him a job.


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

oldccm said:


> Around here there's a few 'franchise' companies. I'd have to look and see if Certa Pro is one of them. I know we have College Pro & Student Works which are basically the same thing.
> It's not just painting franchises either. Just Saturday I got the aeration guy try to sell me on aerating my lawn. Was one of those outfits where a guy drops off 10 guys and aerators in 10 different neighbourhoods going door to door looking for a sale. Guy was at the top of the street at 8pm waiting for a ride. Neighbours I talked to think he got 1 maybe 2 jobs that day at $80. Told me he was a University student blah blah blah, aren't they all. In hindsite I should have offered him a job.



Saw this for the first time here last week, I dont know if the investement is worth it..... Aération season is like 2 weeks long here.


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