# RRP non-compliance gallery



## daArch

Post your non-compliance pictures here. 

This is a drive by picture that sure appears to be non-compliant. This house is at 82 Farm St, Dover, Ma. Dover is considered one of the higher end towns in Mass. Lots of OLD money, home to past governors and US Senators. Farm St is well traveled by many types of people and this house is VERY close to road and thus in full view of all those travelers. 

Upon closer inspection of another photo, the guy at the door has a shirt that says "Four Seasons Painting" on the back. I could not read the phone number or town name.


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## aaron61

AHH,the EPA's evil plan is working.Have them turn on each other while we sit back reap the rewards :sneaky2:


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## BreatheEasyHP

aaron61 said:


> AHH,the EPA's evil plan is working.Have them turn on each other while we sit back reap the rewards :sneaky2:


Poisoning the environment and the population because of gross negligence should be treated more harshly than mere fines. We need to protect ourselves from the race to the bottom and reporting violators to the government serves that purpose.


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## plainpainter

That race to the bottom has been accelerating at a frightening rate lately. I was talking to another contractor in my area - and he says it's impossible to charge RRP rates and get the job. So everyone is ignoring it. And so far there doesn't seem to be much penalty for doing so.


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## dim715

Snitching on someone who is trying to feed his family by working could cause problems with your conscience eventually.


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## daArch

dim715 said:


> Snitching on someone who is trying to feed his family by working could cause problems with your conscience eventually.


Would you have a problem with snitching on people who are harming children and poisoning the Earth so that future generations suffer the consequences?

I think my conscience would bother me if I continually turned a blind eye.


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## plainpainter

dim715 said:


> Snitching on someone who is trying to feed his family by working could cause problems with your conscience eventually.


You forget that this generation of painters threw all the 90's painters under the bus - what about their kids? I got thrown under the bus - and I know for a fact my customers have just as much money if not more than 10+ years ago. Why not use RRP to restore sanity back to this industry - an honest living - $55/man-hours with 30% markup on materials. Even then you ain't getting rich!


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## dim715

Its just my way of thinking.I grew up facing problems person to person.if I saw this yes I would be mad but I wouldnt go home mad and call someone and tell them I'm mad about something and for them to go take care of it.in other words I take care of problems myself.I would go to contractor and tell him what's up and how I feel contractor to contractor.what happens if this guy had real personal problems,lost his job,lost his license and was on 10 o'clock news.that can ruin a man and business.that's just how I roll sorry I meant no offense about it just m.o


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## plainpainter

dim715 said:


> Its just my way of thinking.I grew up facing problems person to person.if I saw this yes I would be mad but I wouldnt go home mad and call someone and tell them I'm mad about something and for them to go take care of it.in other words I take care of problems myself.I would go to contractor and tell him what's up and how I feel contractor to contractor.what happens if this guy had real personal problems,lost his job,lost his license and was on 10 o'clock news.that can ruin a man and business.that's just how I roll sorry I meant no offense about it just m.o


What about the more established contractors that aren't in a financial bind and knowingly are avoiding rrp? You are talking about the exception, the down and out guy. Well I am down and out - and it's because I have been against a 'going' price that is 40%-70% lower than I can match in my wildest dreams. I personally won't bother myself. As I think they'll only regulate guys who actually became accredited. Heck - all you have to do is not do any exterior work worth more than $1,000 - and you are officially not even in consideration for being a licensed contractor. And if you go by the RRP language - you probably can avoid any fine - because it's for licensed contractors only.


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## Bender

Who wants to bet a dollar this thread gets locked?


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## Dean CRCNA

Naturally, I have to voice an opinion 

If the contractor is disturbing a painted/stained surface in the OP (which it certainly looks like they are doing ... it is a pre-1978 home ... and they don't have a lead test showing no lead based paint .... then they're crooks. Period.

People who break the law are crooks in my opinion. They may have all types of excuses, but in the end ... if it quacks like a duck ... walks like a duck ...


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## 6126

dim715 said:


> Snitching on someone who is trying to feed his family by working could cause problems with your conscience eventually.


 What about those of us who are RRP compliant and trying to feed our familes too but cant legitimatly compete those who refuse to follow the rules? I wonder who is stabbing who in the back? Trying to earn a living and feed our familes is what we all do. Breaking the law would dwell on my conscience.


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## PatsPainting

Dean CRCNA said:


> Naturally, I have to voice an opinion
> 
> If the contractor is disturbing a painted/stained surface in the OP (which it certainly looks like they are doing ... it is a pre-1978 home ... and they don't have a lead test showing no lead based paint .... then they're crooks. Period.
> 
> People who break the law are crooks in my opinion. They may have all types of excuses, but in the end ... if it quacks like a duck ... walks like a duck ...


OMG - This is freaking ridiculous. Have you ever stepped on a bug or an ant? if so then you are a murderer.

Pat


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## oldpaintdoc

*Feeling Ill*



Bender said:


> Who wants to bet a dollar this thread gets locked?


And it cannot be fast enough!


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## premierpainter

I can tell you that I will never take a picture and send it into anyone. Lame.


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## chrisn

Guy at the window is advertising Sherwin Williams for free on a job like that, now is that a good idea?


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## ewingpainting.net

PatsPainting said:


> OMG - This is freaking ridiculous. Have you ever stepped on a bug or an ant? if so then you are a murderer.
> 
> Pat


I need to get this off my chest. I jaywalked even after seeing this sign :notworthy:


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## PatsPainting

ewingpainting.net said:


> I need to get this off my chest. I jaywalked even after seeing this sign :notworthy:


Oh no, Gabe i dunno what to say. I have not lost hope in you yet, but I sure hope you seek some help from breaking the law like this. We as painters have a professional standard we must live up to. And this CERTAINLY does not fall in that standard. 

Very disappointed, but instead of lashing out and reporting this picture to the FBI, I will instead look up some places for you to seek help.

Pat


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## daArch

There are laws and there are laws.

I bet no one here has obeyed every jaywalking law, but I also bet no one here has knowingly, willfully, and maliciously polluted the earth or subjected children to toxins. 

Many arguments are countered or supported by extreme comments that really have no pertinence. We despise HO's who compare apples to oranges when it comes to pricing, let's keep it real ourselves when discussing hot topics.

Oh, and NOT to pick on the jaywalking comment, I have NEVER run across any law about killing spiders, ants, ticks, fleas, mosquitoes, flies, etc. Perhaps my militant vegan brother has been taught by his religious master that he once was a bug, I don't think "murder" would be the charge for swatting a fly.


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## PatsPainting

daArch said:


> There are laws and there are laws.
> 
> I also bet no one here has knowingly, willfully, and maliciously polluted the earth or subjected children to toxins.


I bet you did for at least 30 years or so of you're career. Unless you followed all current RRP rules since you started.

Pat


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## daArch

PatsPainting said:


> I bet you did for at least 30 years or so of you're career. Unless you followed all current RRP rules since you started.
> 
> Pat


did you note the word "maliciously".

Let's stop the petty word play and discuss the real issue. we ain't gonna solve anything acting like the children up on capitol hill


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## PatsPainting

daArch said:


> did you note the word "maliciously".
> 
> Let's stop the petty word play and discuss the real issue. we ain't gonna solve anything acting like the children up on capitol hill


You think those guys in the picture you posted are maliciously trying to hurt our children? if so why did you post the picture here like it was funny or cool? Why did you not contact the authority's or the health department? I bet if you went up to those guys and asked them about the RRP they would be clueless and have no idea on what you are talking about. 

Pat


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## PatsPainting

Look - I'm for the rule 100%, we as professionals need to step up our game and do a better job at containing dust. You will get no arguments from me on that. 

But to call guys who are not complying crooks, maliciously trying to hurt our children, destroying the earth is just wrong. The epa has done a horrible job at spreading the word on this. 1 - 10 Ho's have never even heard of this. I would still say half the construction industry has not heard of this rule yet. 

We have to remember that you were able to sand some siding with out having to give a pamphlet, setting up signs, extending your plastic 10' out and so on just a few years ago. 

I would much rather educate sombody then rat them out when it comes to this.

I think we just need to keep things in perspective here 

Pat


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## daArch

Pat,

A few weeks ago there was a discussion about non-compliance. Dan Tambasco was lamenting that HO's had no requirements to use lead safe contractors. One of my solutions was to put together a photo gallery of non-compliant work to show the Mass law makers so they could understand how prevalent non compliance was and perhaps laws making the HO responsible and an information campaign would be good to help keep lead out of the environment.

This post was was to that end.

And speaking of knowledge of the law, does "ignorance of the law is no excuse" ring a bell. We forever piss and moan about those who are not licensed, insured etc. I do not remember a general attitude of the professionals here that those lowballing hacks get a free pass because they do not know better. Part of being a PROFESSIONAL is knowing the laws and regs relative to your profession. 

yes, they should be closed down for not performing the job in a PROFESSIONAL manner, for NOT playing on a level playing field, for STEALING work from LEGITIMATE PROFESSIONALS.


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## cappaint

Nobody likes a rat. I can tell you right now that people will not pay for someone that is totally by the books. I recently talked to a lady that had a lowball bid of 2k, 2 bids around 4k, and then this total legit guy saying it will come in at 11k. This is for a very small house....thats just not realistic folks. 

You do you...go around being some vigilante crime buster and you should get ur mouth punched.


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## daArch

PatsPainting said:


> Look - I'm for the rule 100%, we as professionals need to step up our game and do a better job at containing dust. You will get no arguments from me on that.
> 
> But to call guys who are not complying crooks, maliciously trying to hurt our children, destroying the earth is just wrong. The epa has done a horrible job at spreading the word on this. 1 - 10 Ho's have never even heard of this. I would still say half the construction industry has not heard of this rule yet.
> 
> We have to remember that you were able to sand some siding with out having to give a pamphlet, setting up signs, extending your plastic 10' out and so on just a few years ago.
> 
> I would much rather educate sombody then rat them out when it comes to this.
> 
> I think we just need to keep things in perspective here
> 
> Pat


OK. Good points

Unfortunately I have been trying to educate contractors i see who are not in compliance. The majority DO know the laws. I have stopped at many painting sites and talked to the guys, they either have no idea what I am saying (language barrier) or have no interest in following RRP rules.

I should be driving past this house tomorrow. I'll stop by and try to educate.


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## RCP

PatsPainting said:


> I would much rather educate sombody then rat them out when it comes to this.
> 
> I think we just need to keep things in perspective here
> 
> Pat


I agree. But I don't blame Bill for posting it, it is frustrating to see this going on. One thing nobody mentioned, if a home is pre 78, does not automatically mean it has lead, although that house looks old enough to have it. If an Inspector goes out and uses an XRF and determines the level is lower than the minimum, than RRP is not required. 
But OHSA requirements would still apply, and those have largely been ignored for years as well. 
I have said this before, talk to your local building inspector, homebuilders associations, etc. Show that you are doing right thing and work on educating those around you. I have helped several guys in my area get certified because the paint store gave them my name.
I carry extra RRP books and not afraid to stop and show someone.


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## daArch

cappaint said:


> You do you...go around being some vigilante crime buster and you should get ur mouth punched.


a person who drops a dime when seeing a law being broken is not a vigilante. A concerned citizen reporting a crime,yes, but he is not someone taking the law into his own hands. 


let's not get carried away with name calling and erroneous labels.


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## cappaint

A viginlante is someone who takes it upon themself to enforce laws when they feel the proper authorities arent doing so.

You, tryin to organize a group of people, to go around gathering evidence of lawbreaking, BECAUSE you feel the authorities will not, definitely fits the definition.


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## RCP

cappaint said:


> A viginlante is someone who takes it upon themself to enforce laws when they feel the proper authorities arent doing so.
> 
> You, tryin to organize a group of people, to go around gathering evidence of lawbreaking, BECAUSE you feel the authorities will not, definitely fits the definition.


I believe a vigilante is someone who takes it upon themselves to *punish* those that break the laws. I believe we all have to be a part of helping to enforce the law by discussing them here and other places.
But that is JMHO.


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## cappaint

I would say that the goal of your actions is to ENSURE punishment is carried out where it otherwise wouldnt be....Ensuring punishment is as good as punishing imho. Obviously you are not going to issue your own finds or open your own jail. Good luck with your mission tho.


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## Ramsden Painting

I agree that the rules that have been put in place have to followed. If you speed you have the possibility of getting caught or worse off hurting someone. Homeowners who are educated about the rules and disregard then by hiring a contractor who is not following them, and it can be proven should also be held responsible 

The following picture is one I mentioned in another post on work being performed by a local historical society. We were working down the street in full suits with $1000's in equipment on site and came across this contractor ripping siding off, throwing it in a pile on the lawn (house is circa 1850) scraping in shorts and a tshirt. Secondly there is a daycare next door as well as the town park across the street. I took the picture and sent it to the president of the historical society and received a response of they are well aware of the laws that is why they hired a certified contractor. I explained in an email to educate them of procedures that should of been performed in detail. Although I didn't hear back, I hope at least they know will make sure the RRP rules are followed


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## plainpainter

I can't believe anyone here who would adhere to RRP would in turn defend to the death guys who don't adhere to the rule. It's like Bill said - what's different from these guys and lowballers uninsured hacks of yesteryear? Professionalism is professionalism, if these guys choose not to be rrp certified yet perfrom the work, that's not professional. I was using vaccum attached sanders years before this rule was a rumour, perhaps not a special $1,200 vaccum cleaner - but was nonetheless containing the dust.


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## Dean CRCNA

I think there are certified contractors who do legal work, but really don't believe in this lead stuff. So I fully understand that they wouldn't want to snitch out.

However, there are a few contractors who do believe in the dangers of lead and see "victims". These contractors may feel a need to warn folks.

I fall into the second group, so I may be more vocal than others.

Plus, I get to see small children with EBLLs that they got from contractors often.


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## NEPS.US

I have never taken a picture of a PC or "ratted" them out but I have been pissed seeing non-compliant work being done. If I had chosen to get certified and pursue that line of work I think my approach might be a little different. While I do not think the liability is worth the work I do see this to be a lucrative market for those that have experience in restoration work. I wouldn't be too concerned with the low ballers or the illegal work practices. I would be more concerned about educating my marketing audience. In my experience most high end clients want and need to be educated in how to maintain their home. They want to be smart, safe and make the best choices available when caring for their large investment. I would take out ads in local papers, send out direct mail and focus my whole campaign around what being a certified contractor means. Bring the topic front and center in your own market and be recognized for being the company to handle RRP responsibly. Create your own market.


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## Workaholic

I see a lot of non compliance but I do not take it upon myself to call them in. I would imagine there are countless non licensed as well and I am not calling them in either, not because I don't care but I don't believe much would come of my efforts.


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## daArch

If we all who are certified (or not), wish to see others either comply or choose not to deal with RRP jobs, perhaps peer group influence can make a difference. 

Whether you drop a dime, or decide to talk to those who are not following RRP, then those who are not following RRP (for whatever reason) may realize that their peers are taking a different approach

Sure, it won't cure all the ills, but it will help spread the word.

Many drops in a bucket, do eventually fill it. 

But back to the original reason I wanted non-compliant pix be posted. We do need to realize how rampant non-compliance is in order to formulate a unified plan. that's why I encourage others to snap pix of non-compliance and post them here. 

It is my opinion that the local authorities will not do anything if they have their heads in the sand. Making them aware might induce laws to make the HO's bear some responsibility.

It does p!ss the hell out of me that HO's bear NO responsibility for hiring non complaint firms. I'd like to see that change.


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## Lambrecht

I have been wondering since they put these new rules into play why it has taking all of these years. They banned the paint in 1978 and 30 years later they are just starting to institute rules for the proper way to deal with it. WTF? If the rules would have been initiated in 78 when the paint was banned I think it would be second nature for painters today . I think they are on the right track with the RRP rules but think they should have been put in place years ago.


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## plainpainter

The next issue is going to be mercury in the paint - this ain't over. Mercury in paint was only removed by 1990. My theory is that there is going to be a 'soft' patch period of 2-3 years where they let a lot of guys off easy. But I think eventually this is going to come down hard on everyone. And I agree with Bill, it makes me mad as hell that homeowners aren't held accountable - but I have to believe this is going to change. As this is originally homeowner driven, it eventually has to come full circle and make homeowners culpable as well. Everyone knows to hire a licensed electrician and plumber - and expect permits to be pulled.


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## Bender

RRP is the global warming of the construction industry.


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## Workaholic

plainpainter said:


> Everyone knows to hire a licensed electrician and plumber - and expect permits to be pulled.


Do they? Maybe they do but some just do not care, I have seen some sketchy electrical done either by the homeowner or someone they know.


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## johnthepainter

that painting crew probably didnt disturb any surfaces.

the homeowner and his "friend" probably did the powerwashing and scraping,,,,,thats legal.

then that crew of painters just applied the caulk and paint.

see how everyone won? except the planet and the sierra club.

the good thing is that the painters put food on the table, and bought their kids shoes.

when life rains lemons,,,do tequila shots!


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## johnthepainter

call yourself "professional" all you want,,,,you are in a service industry right alongside housecleaners, carpet cleaners, paper hangers, and waitstaff. although, using the term professional can boost a persons ego.


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## NCPaint1

Ignorance is no excuse, BUT I do know of many contractors out there that simply have no idea these laws even exist. Seriously...I make it a point to bring up the topic with my customers in plain chit chat....the VAST majority are like "theres a what law?" 

So thinking these guys are knowingly lowballing these type jobs isnt always the case...I bet many of them havent a clue. That wont stop them from being fined eventually, so education is key.


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## eews

I think the only way you can know for certain that a contractor is non RRP compliant, is to see the lead test results for yourself. If you see someone working obviously out of RRP regs how do you know he hadn't tested, and found it to be lead free. Not every house prior to 1978 has lead. I think I saw a stat that about 65% of homes built prior to 1950
actually had lead paint, so that means there are old homes that are lead free.
And while it is probable and likely they are not following RRP regs, you can't be certain unless you know the lead status.( and photo's don't tell you that).


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## Roamer

I attended a recent forum with the EPA, HUD and OSHA to discuss the implementation and enforcement of the current lead regulations. The president of the local NARI chapter had some disturbing statistics that none of the above groups disputed. He claimed that only 7% of contractors nationwide had become compliant and that a whopping 93% were not compliant or RRP certified. Catching the non-compliant would be like banning guns, there are just too many to ban.

On topic: I could fill this gallery with pictures. I see guys every day breaking the rules. Turn them in? Never.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> I have never taken a picture of a PC or "ratted" them out but I have been pissed seeing non-compliant work being done. If I had chosen to get certified and pursue that line of work I think my approach might be a little different. While I do not think the liability is worth the work I do see this to be a lucrative market for those that have experience in restoration work. I wouldn't be too concerned with the low ballers or the illegal work practices. I would be more concerned about educating my marketing audience. In my experience most high end clients want and need to be educated in how to maintain their home. They want to be smart, safe and make the best choices available when caring for their large investment. I would take out ads in local papers, send out direct mail and focus my whole campaign around what being a certified contractor means. Bring the topic front and center in your own market and be recognized for being the company to handle RRP responsibly. Create your own market.


Thats alot of work. Lets start a "Shortcuts to Success" thread.


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## CliffK

NCPaint1 said:


> Ignorance is no excuse, BUT I do know of many contractors out there that simply have no idea these laws even exist. Seriously...I make it a point to bring up the topic with my customers in plain chit chat....the VAST majority are like "theres a what law?"
> 
> So thinking these guys are knowingly lowballing these type jobs isnt always the case...I bet many of them havent a clue. That wont stop them from being fined eventually, so education is key.


 I asked the manager of the store where I buy why he doesn't have all the RRP paraphernalia. I told him they should have a little section/display with all the necessary stuff from the test to the plastic to the bunny suits. His response was "no one is asking for it". The only lead test they sold was a noncompliant one up until a month or so ago after we had the conversation.


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## aaron61

I don't think that I can be presumptuous enough to know for certain that RRP applies to any project that isn't mine! And frankly I don't have the time to be worrying about what the other guy is doing. I strongly believe that the way this is being handled is ridiculous. I will follow the rules but if the EPA can't,at the very least,spend some time,money & effort educating the public and making them as complicit as the contractor then I will just shake my head and take care of Integrity Finishes.


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## chrisn

high fibre said:


> call yourself "professional" all you want,,,,you are in a service industry right alongside housecleaners, carpet cleaners, paper hangers, and waitstaff. although, using the term professional can boost a persons ego.


Just wait till Mr Bill reads this:boxing:


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## CliffK

aaron61 said:


> I don't think that I can be presumptuous enough to know for certain that RRP applies to any project that isn't mine! And frankly I don't have the time to be worrying about what the other guy is doing. I strongly believe that the way this is being handled is ridiculous. I will follow the rules but if the EPA can't,at the very least,spend some time,money & effort educating the public and making them as complicit as the contractor then I will just shake my head and take care of Integrity Finishes.


 Well said aaron:thumbsup:


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## NEPS.US

vermontpainter said:


> Thats alot of work. Lets start a "Shortcuts to Success" thread.


Right next to the restaurant place mat advertising and the hair salon marketing threads.


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## daArch

Passed by the house at 7:20 AM and 3:40 PM today and no sign of anyone either time. Additional areas had been scraped and primed between morning and afternoon.

So an educational opportunity will have to wait.


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## NCPaint1

CliffK said:


> I asked the manager of the store where I buy why he doesn't have all the RRP paraphernalia. I told him they should have a little section/display with all the necessary stuff from the test to the plastic to the bunny suits. His response was "no one is asking for it". The only lead test they sold was a noncompliant one up until a month or so ago after we had the conversation.


I dont have any information on it in my stores, just some paperwork on who in the area offers certification. I dont carry any of the necessary equipment, Vacs, drops, suits...nothing. Nobody is asking for it, and Im not shelling out for more shelf decorations that wont sell. 

I recommend that people have potential lead jobs professionally tested at the HO's expense. The home could still have lead, but be under the level requiring that RRP be followed. If the HO's dont want to pay for the test, they certainly dont want to pay for a job requiring RRP to be followed...so you can walk away with your head up. :thumbsup:


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## BreatheEasyHP

Maybe we should all step back and think on a broader level for a second? Let's look at how policy works. 

The government puts resources into creating a rule, disseminating information, and enforcing the rule. 

Resources should be optimized to give the biggest return - in this case, decreasing the rate of lead exposure in target populations. 

The EPA might actually be playing their cards right here. They could dump millions and millions into trying to educate everyone right away and enforce things immediately, or wait some years for the word to spread mostly on it's own and increase activity from there.

There's an obvious and steep diminishing return on the EPA greatly increasing it's dissemination of information and enforcement. 

In an era where it's widely believed that the government wastes a whole lot money, if this analysis is accurate, isn't the EPA being responsible to the expressed interests of the citizenry?


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## daArch

BreatheEasyHP said:


> Maybe we should all step back and think on a broader level for a second? Let's look at how policy works.
> 
> The government puts resources into creating a rule, disseminating information, and enforcing the rule.
> 
> Resources should be optimized to give the biggest return - in this case, decreasing the rate of lead exposure in target populations.
> 
> The EPA might actually be playing their cards right here. They could dump millions and millions into trying to educate everyone right away and enforce things immediately, or wait some years for the word to spread mostly on it's own and increase activity from there.
> 
> There's an obvious and steep diminishing return on the EPA greatly increasing it's dissemination of information and enforcement.
> 
> In an era where it's widely believed that the government wastes a whole lot money, if this analysis is accurate, isn't the EPA being responsible to the expressed interests of the citizenry?


OH STOP MAKING SENSE !!

Can't a bunch of rabble rousers have any fun anymore 

Let's tar and feather someone - - ANYone!


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## Bender

daArch said:


> So an educational opportunity will have to wait.


Oh, its going to be educational. Thats for sure.


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## daArch

Bender said:


> Oh, its going to be educational. Thats for sure.


nudge nudge wink wink


Think I'll make it off the property alive ? :whistling2:


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## aaron61

I think I would have to tell you to kindly remove yourself from the property.


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## Ole34

are you kiddin?? taking photos of jobs that ''APPEAR'' to be non-compliant??? .........lol :no: 

so many issues here to discuss but for the meantime take these photos down until you are 100% sure they are non-compliant i mean seriously, come on you appear to be an intelligent man but WTF your not even 100%sure they're non-compliant an your runnin around takin photos and posting home address's an company names on the Internet ??? this is a complete joke an I hope somebody gets a hold you soon before your reckless behavior has a negative effect on somebody's business or personal life..........

change the title of this thread to 

*''Possible non-compliance Gallery''*


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## Ole34

Bill why not drive around an take pictures of Mexicans an forward their info to immigration, they're ''probably'' here illegally


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## daArch

Ole,

How do you deal with the RRP rule? Do you find it difficult to stay compliant and compete with others who are not compliant?


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## Ole34

daArch said:


> Ole,
> 
> How do you deal with the RRP rule? Do you find it difficult to stay compliant and compete with others who are not compliant?


 
what does my situation have to do with you driving around photographing people while they're working an posting home address's on the Internet ''claiming'' they are in violation without ever leaving the comfort of your mini van ???? ............... I could care less if you want to be an ill informed, no info havin rat that's your problem not mine but I am completely at odds with the fact that you see no wrong in what your doing an to top it all off you are a MODERATOR here !!!! lead by example huh ??? lets all go out on a witch hunt for RRP violations, we can figure out if theyre guilty later on right ?? ................:blink:

you said it yourself in your initial post that they ''appear'' to be in violation.........APPEAR......... do you know what that word means ??? what the hell gives you the right to post home address's an company names without first figuring out whats really goin on ??? messed up man an that's how problems start. for all you know that house could be lead free an here you are runnin your mouth makin waves for the HO'er when in reality you should have just drivin on by if you weren't 100% sure in the first place or at least stop an talk with the HO'er then mayb and a big MAYBE you post their info if you find them to be in fact non compliant 



how would you like it if some stranger drove by your house an took photos then posted your addres online claiming some type of unfounded foul ??? ..........youd thank them right ?? lol


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## Ole34

people like you call the cops an say they hear the lady next door gettin beat then next thing you know the swat team busts in an shoots the dog while the guy's upstairs nailin his wife ......moral of this story is ''mind your own business''


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## daArch

Please mr ole, understand the origins of this thread. It was about what we can do about the lowballing non-professional hacks that steal work by not following the law. It is rampant here in Mass, as you know by your diligent following of the topic. 

That's why I ask you how you deal with it. I wished that you would share your methods of competing against the illegal lowballing hack painters out there.

That was the original impetus. 

But I get the sense you deal with it by NOT being certified. Thus the aggressive defensive posture you are taking against those of us who want to play by the rules on an even playing field. 

Where and when were you certified?




But thanks for your input, it speaks volumes


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## Ole34

daArch said:


> Please mr ole, understand the origins of this thread. It was about what we can do about the lowballing non-professional hacks that steal work by not following the law.


 

regarding ''4 seasons painting'' what proof do you have other then your drive by to back up your claims about them being non-compliant??? ...........exactly, it speaks volumes



Earth to Bill !!! you posted their info without first figuring out if they in fact were doing anything wrong !!! that is the problem here ...........what dont you understand?? you cannot go around an take photos of people an accuse them of crimes with them being able to defend themselves you just cant. thats what we have a judicial system for for cryin out loud


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## Ole34

daArch said:


> But I get the sense you deal with it by NOT being certified. Thus the aggressive defensive posture you are taking against those of us who want to play by the rules on an even playing field.
> 
> Where and when were you certified?


 
i dont need to be certified im a 1 man shop plus 1 blonde  an primarily do high end interior re-paints an when i do encounter RRP work i pass it off to a larger certified crew i know from the area .............dont even mess with it not worth the aggrivation and as far as playing by the rules well i DO i just didnt drink the RRP kool aide an only a small percentage of jobs actually fall under RRP to begin with so whats the big deal? its not like its 1 out of 3 homes or something ............all this fuss about nothing if you ask me an just another way for people to complain when buisness gets slow........i guess blaming Mexicans is so YESTERDAY


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## PatsPainting

Ole - I think you getting to fired up over this. This is the internet. Chit happens. Most likely those goons that Bill posted a picture are violating the rrp rules. Who really cares. 

Relax bud - Watch some re-runs of Gilligan's Island or something.

Pat


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## Workaholic

I know my moderator status might fall into jeopardy with this post but the epa has had had laws in place for a long time on the proper way to deal with lead and I would rather have laws and restrictions on licensing and any people that knowingly are operating illegally.


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## daArch

ole, Now why couldn't you just calmly explain your approach instead of going all Marshall Dillion ? 

Talk about a fuss about nothing.









And who said anything about "Mexicans". There's a red herring.


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## NEPS.US

I'm still waiting to see pic's of some of these high end res repaints puttied with glazing. :yes:


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## Workaholic

NEPS.US said:


> I'm still waiting to see pic's of some of these high end res repaints puttied with glazing. :yes:


or caulk.


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## Ole34

NEPS.US said:


> I'm still waiting to see pic's of some of these high end res repaints puttied with glazing. :yes:


go fix your trucks ! lol


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## Bender

NEPS.US said:


> I'm still waiting to see pic's of some of these high end res repaints puttied with glazing. :yes:





Workaholic said:


> or caulk.


Please stay on topic.


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## NEPS.US

Just say "no" and the illegal rrp work will not bother you. There's enough lead to go around for everyone. 





how's that Bendy?...................


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## RH

How about this, bill doesn't know for sure they are in violation but they most likely are. 

It's not good form to bad mouth anyone without being positive but I can imagine how frustrating it is to do things the right way at much expense to yourself only to see bids lost to those who don't follow the rules.

For the record I'm not certified either and would pass on an RRP job if I ever came across one.


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## Workaholic

Bender said:


> Please stay on topic.


Is it on topic to say I am more worried about legal paint contractors than RRP? I am not certified and so far to date not being certified has not effected my bottom line.


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## Bender

Workaholic said:


> Is it on topic to say I am more worried about legal paint contractors than RRP? I am not certified and so far to date not being certified has not effected my bottom line.


Whoa fella. I got big bucks riding on this threads demise. No comment


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## daArch

Bender said:


> Whoa fella. I got big bucks riding on this threads demise. No comment


What's your money on: Who? What? When? Where? or How?


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## Schmidt & Co.

daArch said:


> What's your money on: Who? What? When? Where? or How?


I predict Bill will lock his own thread this Friday night.


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## Workaholic

Bender said:


> Whoa fella. I got big bucks riding on this threads demise. No comment


There is an instant ban betting against Bill.


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## daArch

Nah,

I bet I'll be attending to a "Irene honey dew" list.

Can ANYTHING live up to THAT hype ?


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> Nah,
> 
> I bet I'll be attending to a "Irene honey dew" list.
> 
> Can ANYTHING live up to THAT hype ?


 
east coast earthquake?:yes:

did you see that the Lincoln memorial actually formed a crack in it??


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## oldpaintdoc

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I predict Bill will lock his own thread this Friday night.


I can't believe it is still OPEN. Guess it is all in who ya know.


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## Dean CRCNA

_The best friend of an illegal contractor is a silent legal contractor._

While it doesn't matter to me on the issue of snitch ... no snitch ... I did get to thinking. With over 700,000 certified renovators, could you imagine if the Lead Safe Certified Firms one day finally got their fill and began turning in? You could literally have a hundred thousand complaints logged in one day.

It would totally change the construction industry overnight.


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## Ole34

Dean CRCNA said:


> _The best friend of an illegal contractor is a silent legal contractor._
> 
> While it doesn't matter to me on the issue of snitch ... no snitch ... I did get to thinking. With over 700,000 certified renovators, could you imagine if the Lead Safe Certified Firms one day finally got their fill and began turning in? You could literally have a hundred thousand complaints logged in one day.
> 
> It would totally change the construction industry overnight.


 
an then the EPA would completely shut down :thumbsup: ...........good idea.


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## premierpainter

Also, just because the shirt on the guy working says a company name on it, does not really mean that he works for that company.
NEPS sent a shirt down to me and I wear it on all illegal jobs that we do!


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## daArch

premierpainter said:


> Also, just because the shirt on the guy working says a company name on it, does not really mean that he works for that company.
> NEPS sent a shirt down to me and I wear it on all illegal jobs that we do!


Good point. I should call that company and see if someone is misrepresenting them,

BTW, I stopped by today. Painters weren't there but the HO was out looking at the work. "Looking nice" I said 
"Yup, " he replied "the trim was looking bad"

I then asked if I could ask a few questions as I was doing an INFORMAL "survey". "Sure", he said.

I told him I was a contractor and was trying to get info on how others were dealing with the new EPA lead containment laws. (No signal of knowing what I was talking bout)

I asked if the painters had mentioned the new EPA lead containment rules. "No, I don't think so"

Did they give you a pamphlet explaining the new laws? Another negative answer. 

Has this house ever been de-leaded. He didn't think so. 

I thanked him and wished a happy Irene. He chuckled and sighed. 

So I think I may say that it REALLY appears the painters are non-complaint. As we know, informing the HO is part of the process.


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## cappaint

Ur just mad cause business is slow.

Like I said earlier a lady I know got quotes of 2k, several around 4k, and then the certified clown for around 10k. If she had to pay 10k she would prolly just get the house sided....noone is gonna want to pay 10k every 7-8 years for a 1500 sq foot house.


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## daArch

cappaint said:


> Ur just mad cause business is slow.



Now THAT is FUNNY. My aching body wishes you were accurate


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## Dean CRCNA

cappaint said:


> Like I said earlier a lady I know got quotes of 2k, several around 4k, and then the certified clown for around *10k*.


Now THAT is FUNNY too. Whoever quoted 10K doesn't know the law. Whoever believes it cost that much difference, also doesn't know the law.


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## PatsPainting

Dean CRCNA said:


> Now THAT is FUNNY too. Whoever quoted 10K doesn't know the law. Whoever believes it cost that much difference, also doesn't know the law.


Yep - epa says it's only about 8 to 150 bucks extra per job 

Pat


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## oldpaintdoc

PatsPainting said:


> Yep - epa says it's only about 8 to 150 bucks extra per job
> 
> Pat


Now that really is funny


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## daArch

Our instructor gave a percentage, not a firm amount. (don't even ask me what it was ).


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## Ole34

your almost there bill now just go get a lead test an you may have a winner cause as it stands now both you and the HO'er are clueless as to whether or not lead is present ...........:no: talk about irony, somebody needs to get one of you monkeys a football thats all im sayin


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## daArch

ole,

may I request that you become certified so that you could talk from knowledge and not just fire from the hip?

Thanks. 

We are trying to further our understanding of how to work with the rule.

Not saying any of us like the rule or how it is being administrated, but at least many of us have taken the time, money, and energy to be EDUCATED by being certified


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## daArch

Tell me something ole, you are not certified, as is your choice, and you do residential re-paints. Now we all know that your area of the country has it's fair share of pre-1978 homes, hell pre-1878 homes. 

You say that you turn the lead jobs over to someone else. 


Can you tell me how you determine those homes are leaded?


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## Dean CRCNA

PatsPainting said:


> Yep - epa says it's only about 8 to 150 bucks extra per job
> 
> Pat


I agree.

I've done RRP jobs that only cost me around $10 and some $1000.


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## Ole34

daArch said:


> ole,
> 
> may I request that you become certified so that you could talk from knowledge and not just fire from the hip?


 
knowledge ?? a 9yr old girl has enough sense not to ''ASSUME'' that every house built prior to 79 contains lead and thats exactly what your doing ''ASSUMING'' and you want me to become certified?? 


sounds to me like you feel a sleep during class :whistling2:


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## Dean CRCNA

Ole34 said:


> you and the HO'er are clueless as to whether or not lead is present ...


When you are clueless if it doesn't or does have lead ... this is when RRP is required. Other time is when you know it has lead.


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## Ole34

daArch said:


> Can you tell me how you determine those homes are leaded?


 
i guess just like you !! :jester:


kiddin i dont guess like you that would be un professional ............i dont test anything just make a phone call when im not sure an if leads there i pass it on .........


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## Ole34

Dean CRCNA said:


> When you are clueless if it doesn't or does have lead ... this is when RRP is required. Other time is when you know it has lead.


 
maybe the painter checked for lead before he started either way bill shouldn't have posted that mans info on the Internet with only suspicion an ''knowledge'' as evidence an I don't care what you people think ............its wrong plain an simple 

this is exactly why people need to mind their business because in the end all it does is cause confusion an make trouble for all involved an the only ones who stand to lose are the accused not the BIG MOUTHED KNOW IT ALLS who started it all in the first place


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## daArch

Ole34 said:


> knowledge ?? a 9yr old girl has enough sense not to ''ASSUME'' that every house built prior to 79 contains lead and thats exactly what your doing ''ASSUMING'' and you want me to become certified??
> 
> 
> sounds to me like you feel a sleep during class :whistling2:


I understand you are a fiercely independent painter and hate being told anything, and I appreciate your input from that precipice. But I gotta advise that if you KNEW the rules then you may not have made some of those statements.

here, let me help you. 

First, it's pre-78 homes.

Second, the law dictates that you are to ASSUME there is lead, unless you test EACH surface and it tests lead free.

This is why your input is not helpful, although unfathomably appreciated. Again, I ask that you become educated before obfuscating the facts. 

But thank you for your attempt to clarify the pond.


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## daArch

Ole34 said:


> maybe the painter checked for lead before he started either way bill shouldn't have posted that mans info on the Internet with only suspicion an ''knowledge'' as evidence an I don't care what you people think ............its wrong plain an simple
> 
> this is exactly why people need to mind their business because in the end all it does is cause confusion an make trouble for all involved an the only ones who stand to lose are the accused not the BIG MOUTHED KNOW IT ALLS who started it all in the first place


maybe the sounds of that woman screaming bloody murder in that apartment are sounds of wild sex and she is NOT being killed. I shouldn't call the cops. They'll just kill innocent people. 



ole, you are big on "not being involved", of turning the eye to what others do, and minding your own business. 

How come you are so passionate, judgmental, and loud about being involved with what I am doing?


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## Lambrecht

This is becoming my new favorite thread . Oh yeah, staying on topic......lead is bad


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## Ole34

the point im tryin to make is that its not your problem what they are doing. the rules may state pre 78 an to assume but thats only for the HO'er and the Painter whos actually doing the job not the Wallpaper guy driving by takin photos ............................


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## daArch

so why is it YOUR problem what I am doing ?


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## RCP

Is the horse dead yet?


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## daArch

Wait for it


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## Ole34

ok so let me get this straight..............if i see a house pre 78 i am to assume its leaded right ??? ok i got that part ............now if i am driving down the road an see a pre 78 home being worked on by a crew i am to assume its leaded and theyre not following RRP regulations because all of the tell tale sighns arent there i.e. suites, vacs, sighns, plastic right ??? ok i got that part as well ...........i guess this is the part where i need to get high or something because im lost as to how in the world you think its ok to go ahead an post all of their information on a public forum an accuse them of being non-compliant when all you did was drive by in the first place. was the weed so good that you had a '''connection'' with the house and it was like ''dude im covered in lead call the cops'' 


:jester: (only about the last part lol )


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## daArch

> ok so let me get this straight..............if i see a house pre 78 i am to assume its leaded right ??? ok i got that part ............now if i am driving down the road an see a pre 78 home being worked on by a crew i am to assume its leaded and theyre not following RRP regulations because all of the tell tale sighns arent there i.e. suites, vacs, sighns, plastic right ??? ok i got that part as well ...........i guess this is the part where i need to get high or something because im lost as to how in the world you think its ok to go ahead an post all of their information on a public forum an accuse them of being non-compliant when all you did was drive by in the first place. was the weed so good that you had a '''connection'' with the house and it was like ''dude im covered in lead call the cops''
> 
> 
> (only about the last part lol )


Well I gotta say, you almost completed a full post with no insults. Congrats on approaching the goal of intelligent discussions.

You got the first part right, but then your prejudice fails you. 

You truly have missed the premise of the topic, although I have explained it. Let me state it again.

We have a problem with non compliance. We need to discuss a solution. I suggested that we all post pix of apparent non compliance. That is not full blown accusations in the eyes of the law, it's what called SUSPICION. That's why they use "Alleged" and "Appears". I posted pix of HIGHLY suspicious non-compliance. If we built a gallery, then we all could understand how wide spread the problem is and be better EDUCATED to act correctly. 

You say "all their information" . I posted "information". BUT none of it was private or privileged. All was viewable from the street. Just like your pic of the DrAin Team van you posted. Hell, you even allowed the license plate to be seen. Will you please judge yourself as you judge me? Thanks

If you think driving by a home and posting a picture taken from the street is inappropriate, may I suggest you plug your address into Google Maps and put the little street view icon onto your street. WOW, I can see your front door !

We live in the information world. There are more freedoms today than before when it comes to public access of public information.

So what are YOU smoking to get you so up tight and paranoid?


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## daArch

OH, good night. Don't bother penning a excruciatingly poignant tome in response tonight. I gotta be fresh as a daisy for tomorrow. 

I have a route mapped out of other suspicious JOBS and the accusatory verbiage needs to be crafted to spew to the kool-aid sucking minions.


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## cappaint

ever hear of minding your own business there busy body?

U must have been the tattle tail in grade school


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## PatsPainting

cappaint said:


> ever hear of minding your own business there busy body?
> 
> U must have been the tattle tail in grade school



Come on, Now you're being ridiculous. He posted a freaking picture on the web of some guys not following the rules. Who freaking cares. Some people would say its his business if he keep loosing jobs because he is following the rules and others are not. 

Pat


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## cappaint

if he was soooo busy he wouldnt give a chit....hed be too tired to take pics of other jobs


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## PatsPainting

cappaint said:


> if he was soooo busy he wouldnt give a chit....hed be too tired to take pics of other jobs


Who are you replying to?

Pat


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## chrisn

I will reply to the both of you(ole, Mr. Bill), please please.


*Please* start PMing each other, or better yet meet in person and :2guns: :boxing: or talk on the phone, or text ,or ANYTHING, just leave all of us out of you're kindergarten mentality and behavior.:whistling2:


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## RCP

I can't see this thread going anywhere good.


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