# Manufacturers: do NOT eliminate regular flat paint.



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Everyone is jumping on this "scrubbable/washable/matte" flat bandwagon.

None of it works like normal paint.

All of the scrubbable/washable/enamel flats behave very oddly compared to normal flats.

They all have this quality where the surface of the paint CHANGES and moves *after* you are done rolling it. All of the little mounds from each individual stipple in the roller nap will even start sagging *after* it already looked good.

The paint tries to "enamalize" so the surface film is still moving around WAY after you are done rolling it.

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Flat paint does NOT need to be washable. I repeat flat paint does NOT need to be washable. It is not it's purpose. 

The purpose of flat paint is to LOOK GOOD. That is it's main function. 

It needs to be extremely easy to use and VERY easily touched up so even though marks don't wash off, they can be touched up instead.

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When the surface enamelizes after it has been rolled, it CHANGES the nature of the way the stipple marks protrude from the surface.

Those mountain-shaped stipple marks that protrude from the surface are a significant PART of what breaks up the light. And they are a significant part of what makes touching up easy.

But when those pointy stipple protrusions all melt together after the surface has been rolled, they no longer have that pointy profile, and that significantly INCREASES light refraction on the surface.

Painters need wall paints that do not *morph* and *change* after they have rolled off the surface to be exactly the way they intend it to be. ( other than normal shrinking due to moisture loss. ) 

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Paint with a "ceramic" like finish is NOT the same as *flat* finish. It's a _ceramic finish._

Do not eliminate flat finishes.

Think "ceiling paint", but for walls.

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Flat finishes reproduce the most vivid color. Flat finishes have a museum quality. Art, and furniture look best in front of flat paint. Flat finishes ABSORB LIGHT. Flat finishes make it easy to roll large walls in high temperatures. Flat finishes touch up the best.

This is all referring to *smooth wall* applications, matte/ceramic paints are easier to use over texture.

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Product lines like Aura already do not contain a flat.

Manufacturers like Valspar are producing "flats" with the following description:



"This elegant flat enamel will enhance the walls and trim throughout your home with just one coat. Guaranteed to last a lifetime, this premium enamel can even withstand washing and scrubbing - *something no ordinary flat paint can achieve*."

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Not that I use Valspar, but the writing is on the wall. We do NOT need flat paints that do things "no ordinary flat paint can achieve".

We need flat paints that do EXACTLY the same thing that flats have already been doing perfectly well for the last 20 years. Do not change how they apply, and how they dry.

In order to make a flat paint do something that "no ordinary flat paint can achieve", you have to put something in the paint that is different from what flat paints have always had in them.

And that is the very stuff, that ruins the way a traditional flat paint applies, and dries.

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Do not eliminate regular, plain old "flat" paints.

There are already plenty of "washable/scrubbable" sheens of wall paints to choose from.

Matte, eggshell, satin, semi-gloss, gloss.

Every paint manufacturer needs to always have at least ONE quality ultra-flat wall paint in it's line that functions the way traditional flats always have.

Scrubbability is *not* a requirement.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

scrubbable is not washable. When I was talking to that painter that took my cards he tried to say that.. I just let him talk. Scrubbable is NOT washable, what they term scrubbable is mechanical wear on a surface, not getting it wet and washing the damn thing off like you scrub a dish..


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

who said flats are going away? even if top of lines are getting away from true flats there are plenty of mid and low line flats... i don't see them going anywhere...


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> who said flats are going away? even if top of lines are getting away from true flats there are plenty of mid and low line flats... i don't see them going anywhere...


Hopefully not.

The intention of this post was preventative. I have not concluded it was imminent.

However, I see early warning signs of the same type of trends that have ruined many a other product. ( not necessarily in the paint industry )

Most of the time this happens from some kind of hype getting established, then working it's way into a feedback loop where the manufacturer loses sight of some of most important aspects of a product, thus reducing it's effectiveness.

I am starting to see quite a bit of this kind of hype combined with a trend for customers being given a one size fits all advice that they should use eggshell because it's washable.

In addition I recently had a bad experience with some Valspar paint that I was using to help a friend with a small project where they had already purchased the paint.

I only fall victim to this when helping out people I know. For some reason I have the ability to be staunch with clients, but not to disappoint a friend and tell them they need to eat the cost of some paint.

Since I had never tried the paint, I thought it would try it. This almost never works out. 

I really do want manufacturers to read the post and understand according to my view specifically what it is about a flat that works and makes it desirable.

I understand that paints are in transition right now in many ways, and I just want to impart the notion to manufacturers, that scrubbability is not necessary when it comes to flat paint, and not to alter the things that make flat paint desireable, to achieve something which is not a necessary function of flat paint.

Of course if paint manufacturers can achieve scrubbability *without *inadvertantly making the product worse in other areas that painters have come to rely on when applying/using flat paint, then that would be great.

Product designers have a habit of changing things *just to change them.

*This way they can write "new and improved" on the label. And when a few manufacturers start writing "new and improved" on the label, the other manufacturers feel like they hav to make those changes too, otherwise they feel the customer will not choose their product.

I am hoping to do what I can to minimize this dynamic when it comes to flat paint, because I love traditional flat paint. I rely on it to make it as efficient as possible to achieve a high quality level. I love everything about it, and want to always have access to those traditional qualities of a flat paint.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> who said flats are going away? even if top of lines are getting away from true flats there are plenty of mid and low line flats... i don't see them going anywhere...


:yes:


I don't see them going anywhere at this point. They have their uses and the stores sell a lot of them.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Get you some good old fashion clay base paint.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Even though I agree that a true classic latex flat paint of say 10 years ago has a look and feel that a ceramic doesn't have. In the end, I don't care anymore. I use to be a staunch advocate of oil base trim paint and oil base primers. As far as I am concerned - they can take them all away. I don't really care if I have to prime a house with latex acrylic anymore - whatever is available I will use. So if the 'true' flat goes by the wayside, all I have to say is 'bye bye'. Let's embrace innovation - imagine if we all had to go back 40-50 years and had to paint entire homes in oil paints again? Imagine how nasty that would be after having gotten use to water based paints?

Heck - I needed to paint alot of wall for cheap and I picked up a few of those 5'ers of Pratt&Lambert latex 'silver' line paint. And it was the old latex I remembered from the late 80's - it was nasty smelling and game me a headache. A couple of weeks later I had painted an entire lower floor of a house with Aura Matte - and I took a big whiff and I noticed that there was not stink - you could move in the very next day and never notice it was freshly painted. And the older latexes are harder to use - you needed to actually be a 'painter' in order to get a nice finish with them - most of the problems of application seem to be gone with most waterbourne finishes.

I say embrace change.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

nEighter said:


> scrubbable is not washable. When I was talking to that painter that took my cards he tried to say that.. I just let him talk. Scrubbable is NOT washable, what they term scrubbable is mechanical wear on a surface, not getting it wet and washing the damn thing off like you scrub a dish..



Ahhh, the old "That finish is washable but not scrubbable debate." I have felt that if a paint is only washable it will burnish when rubbed firmly with a wet rage. If a finish is scrubbable, the same treatment will not burnish it at all. I have felt when reps say a finish is washable but not scrubbable, it will leave a client disappointed in the durability of the end product when they wash the walls.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Ahhh, the old "That finish is washable but not scrubbable debate." I have felt that if a paint is only washable it will burnish when rubbed firmly with a wet rage. If a finish is scrubbable, the same treatment will not burnish it at all. I have felt when reps say a finish is washable but not scrubbable, it will leave a client disappointed in the durability of the end product when they wash the walls.


Exactly. The "washable", and "scrubbable" are both misleading. 

It implies that if the customer chooses those things, that if they get a spot on the wall, all they will have to do is wash it, and the paint will look brand new again.

:no:

A lot of the times it leaves some kind of a mark/visible pattern. And 1 out of every 4 or 5 marks are a type of mark that won't even wash off at all, so in order to fix it, that wall would have to be painted from corner to corner any way.

:blink:

The difference with a true flat, is that the marks can be touched up in the same amount of time than it would take to clean them, and the marks that wont clean can be touched up *without* having to re-roll the entire wall.

And even if any type of marks on the wall could be washed off, and at any time a client could make them "look like new" again, what difference does that make when "looking like new" is a "crappy" look?

Great. A crappy look that keeps itself always looking crappy. 

Now of course, "crappy" is subjective...

But it was universally considered for quite a while at least in my area that flat paint looks the best. Not just because it breaks up light, but it is easier to make it look good when you are actually painting it, reducing dry marks on large walls etc.

The push towards eggshells and mattes were not done because anyone thought it was going to _look better_, that push was done, because they were trying to market "washability/scrubbability".

The obvious acception to this is if people have kids. That is the type of scenario where there will some new spagetti sauce, or frog guts or something else on the walls every single day. Usually there are new marks on the wall every day that the parent wants to wash off.

I certainly advise people to use an eggshell if that is the case. And bathrooms and kitchens of course.

Otherwise, I can go into a house every couple of years and spend two hours touching up all the flat walls in the entire house. It is a very inexpensive maintainance program.

If the clients are adventurous enough, I even leave a few small nap rollers, and plastic roller trays and literally instruct them how to touch up the spots successfully themselves should they want to. They usually utilize that for one or two spots that really bother them, and still call every couple of years to have the other spots touched up.

Pertaining to application, flats are not just easier because of large walls. I find I roll much faster, because it is much more forgiving to make the stipple/roller pattern look good. 

Also when re-painting old walls that you have never touched before, and that have always been painted in flat. There can be all kinds of roller marks and other imperfections from previous paintjobs that are not noticable with flat. As soon as you go to put something with a sheen on there, you can be lookg at a LOT of prep to make the surface look good with a sheen, that would have not been necessary with a flat.

You can also move faster cutting in, if some brush strokes show through here or there when you are done, it can be touched up along the edge without being noticable.

Plus flat dries a lot quicker, so everything always seems to go easier.

*Did I mention I like flat?*

:thumbup:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Exactly. The "washable", and "scrubbable" are both misleading.
> 
> It implies that if the customer chooses those things, that if they get a spot on the wall, all they will have to do is wash it, and the paint will look brand new again.
> 
> ...


So how do you really feel about flat paints:blink:


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## DarthPainter (Jul 26, 2009)

Hm, while I certainly don't wish to see flat paints go the way of the dinosaur, I myself hate flat paint for 90 percent of all applications I can think of.

I think it usually looks dingy and cheap on anything but ceilings, and even then I prefer egg shell. It seems to just hang on to dirt much better, too.

While semi gloss on walls reflects too much light and makes a room fell tense, flat sucks in too much and feels cold and sterile. That little bit of sheen in egg shell warms a room up and reflects enough light to make colors pop.

And flat is just plain no fun to work with. It drags; it doesn't flow.

Still don't want to see a potentially useful tool/material taken from me, though.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

DarthPainter said:


> Hm, while I certainly don't wish to see flat paints go the way of the dinosaur, I myself hate flat paint for 90 percent of all applications I can think of.
> 
> I think it usually looks dingy and cheap on anything but ceilings, and even then I prefer egg shell. It seems to just hang on to dirt much better, too.
> 
> ...


Even though I can understand where you are coming from Darth, if you look in any design magazine do you see any gloss or satin paint at all?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Even though I can understand where you are coming from Darth, if you look in any design magazine do you see any gloss or satin paint at all?


Nope:thumbsup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

One thing to remember about flats too is the cheaper the flat, the more it grabs dirt. SuperCraft, the cheapest Pro-Mar, basically the clay loaded builders flats seem to grab dirt just by being in the vicinity of it while a higher quality flat is not as porous and does not seem as bad.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DarthPainter said:


> I think it usually looks dingy and cheap


Well, everyone has different opinions. That is what makes the world go round.

But I can tell you that I have done mostly high end residential repaints and new construction and you hardly ever see paint with sheen on the walls in those applications.

Occasionally in a real modern style house a designer will use sheen intentionally in large rooms/ oddly shaped rooms for an effect, and it definitely looks really good then.



DarthPainter said:


> on anything but ceilings, and even then I prefer egg shell.


Yikes, you are going to be way out on your own island with that one. Most painters I know prefer their ceiling paint as flat as humanly possible because it helps them make a perfect ceiling from corner to corner.



DarthPainter said:


> It seems to just hang on to dirt much better, too.


No pain, no gain. Just kidding. A quality flat won't attract dirt, but it wont repel it either. You should try Regal by Benjamin Moore, or their super spec, or eco spec.

My only reservation in that regard, is sometimes flat paints in really dark colors have a tendency to scuff/change color simply by brushing past it.

I dont run into the problem that often, but with really dark flat colors, that happen to be in an area where lots of people might be brushing up against it, sometimes I will recommend a slight sheen to keep the surface from changing color simply by brushing against it. That obviously isn't acceptable.



DarthPainter said:


> That little bit of sheen in egg shell warms a room up and reflects enough light to make colors pop.


If light is what you want, that is what lighting, skylights, and windows are for. You shouldn't really be using your paint as a light source, all though, I have recommended that strategy on occasion in areas that get little to no natural light, to help bounce some light along. When I do that, it is for utility, not aesthetics.

To my eye, colors pop *less* and are _obscured_ with paints that have a sheen.

Not only does the sheen interfere with the color of the paint, but it picks up other colors from nearby objects and light-sources that very often clash and are not sympathetic with the intended color of the wall.



DarthPainter said:


> And flat is just plain no fun to work with. It drags; it doesn't flow.


?

I have never heard of this. Most painters I know think a quality flat is much easier and quicker to work with than paints with sheen. Of course on 8 foot walls a painter should be able to keep a wet edge with ANY sheen of paint. But there are all kinds of scenarios where you will run into problems keeping a wet edge when using paints that have sheen.

However, regarding flow, all paints should flow. Regardless of sheen, it is a prerequisite for me in a quality paint. A quality paint should be somewhat liquidy, (not runny) and smooth to work with, and be "fine" in the resolution and density of the pigment, so that it spreads out fast, and covers well.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I agree LC, I have painted a ton of high end mill plus home all flat, k&b included


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## DarthPainter (Jul 26, 2009)

This is very surprising. In my experience, flats are just not well liked in my area. I do quite a bit of high end residential work, and we almost never get flat paint as a request. Not gonna give names, but we've done a lot of homes for one of the biggest convenience store chains in the country and a lot of homes for one of the biggest lumber supplier in the east coast, and maybe a handful were painted flat. These are Forbes 500 type of people.

And, while I wouldnt count on paint to provide lighting, it helps as a supplement.

But to each their own I guess.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DarthPainter said:


> we've done a lot of homes for one of the biggest convenience store chains in the country and a lot of homes for one of the biggest lumber supplier in the east coast, and maybe a handful were painted flat. These are Forbes 500 type of people.


I have painted the homes of a few high profile persons myself. Flat always. 





DarthPainter said:


> This is very surprising. In my experience, flats are just not well liked in my area. I do quite a bit of high end residential work, and we almost never get flat paint as a request.


I think part of this is the "washable" hype/feedback loop that I was referring to. When the relative of a homeowner tells them they painted thier home in eggshell, then the homeowner thinks they want eggshell also.

I have also found that homeowners cue quite a lot off of what the painter recommends, so if you are really enthusiastic about eggshell, they lean in that direction.

I could be influencing clients with my enthusiasm in that same way, but my barometer is what designers and architects have used in almost every high end situation I have been in.

Designers that I have worked with don't like paints with sheen because once they have picked out the colors, and matched everything else to go with it, if the wall is reflecting light of a different color, it undermines all of the effort they went through to pick out the color in the first place.

In any case, I don't mind if people like sheen on their walls, but 

*manufacturers:* leave my flat ALONE! 

Don't change it just so you can jump on the flavor of the week "new and improved" wagon.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

You are one passionate guy when it come to flat paint LC


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I have been selling Matte in the last few years with success as it would of been eggshell. Realistically people do not wash there walls and they just don't realize it.

I also have a clause in my proposals that if i do eggshell or higher in shen on a two story foyers and shows all the seams they didn't see prior from having CHB on he walls, I am not responsible..


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Realistically people do not wash there walls and they just don't realize it.


:notworthy:

Could we get a sticky for that comment? The square footage of a home that gets painted in eggshell compared to the few little areas that need to be touched up is ridiculous.

We are making 999% of the home look bad, so that .001% resists ( Not prevents ) certain types of marks.

It is a totally ridiculous equation.

It's like recommending eggshell because someone "has pets". Usually the pet has a habit that marks up the same spot on on or two walls, so we paint the ENTIRE house in eggshell to accommodate this?



MAK-Deco said:


> I also have a clause in my proposals that if i do eggshell or higher in shen on a two story foyers and shows all the seams they didn't see prior from having CHB on he walls, I am not responsible..


This is the best that can be done to avoid responsibility. But my goal is to provide the customers with what is going to make them the most happy. Even if they themselves don't actually know that that is yet.

Every time I have persuaded people to go with a flat, they were ecstatic after they saw it. Especially when people that had a sheen on their walls prior, and we changed to flat.

They got to experience the before and after, and every time that has happened, they couldn't thank me enough for convincing them to change over.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree and can see who they would realize that it looks better, again why I can gone matte, Aura's matte is pretty low sheen in my opinion and can sell it as a flatter paint with the "clean up" option I have used both the Natura and Ben flat now and they as light sheen and probably could sell them as well as flat and being happy with the outcome on bigger walls.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Yes we need flat paints that can be washed, scrubbed etc. My customers request that. Thats why they exist.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Yes we need flat paints that can be washed, scrubbed etc. My customers request that. Thats why they exist.


but they really do not exist any paint that has even the slightest sheen it is not flat anymore...


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## DarthPainter (Jul 26, 2009)

> We are making 999% of the home look bad, so that .001% resists ( Not prevents ) certain types of marks.


I have to take offense to that. That's completely opinion, and your's at that. While I don't think flat typically looks good in most scenarios (my opinion), I wouldn't go as far to say that using it would make a home look bad because I didn't use eggshell.

And, in my experience, it's not really the washability that sells eggshell paints; it's a combination of it being slightly more durable, reflecting a small bit of light which warms up a room and being just as easily touched up as flat.

If you're seeing the seems that badly by using a paint with any kind of sheen on drywall, then you're not really doing high end homes. If those exist in high end homes, then you need to have a talk with the home owner about their drywallers being pure garbage.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

There is NO true washable flat paint. That's why they call it scrubable. More scrubs more paint comes off


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DarthPainter said:


> being just as easily touched up as flat.




I guess that depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.



DarthPainter said:


> If you're seeing the seems that badly by using a paint with any kind of sheen on drywall, then you're not really doing high end homes.


Seeing "seams" was never my issue, or my wording. My issue was keeping a wet edge in situations where the walls are either to large, or broken up in such a way that no matter what sequence you paint around windows/ etc, you are going to be running into areas that have dried. 

Also, I can assure you, I know what high end is. Many of the homes I have worked in were 2+ million dollar homes. I have worked several times in homes that were between 4 and 5 million. 

I have worked in plenty of upscale communities such as communities with homes situated on Arnold Palmer designed golf courses.

And it was always: Flat, flat, and more flat. Actually I do remember painting a freestanding accent wall in a sheen once.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

LC you need to fix that ^


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> There is NO true washable flat paint. That's why they call it scrubable. More scrubs more paint comes off


I actually think you have it backwards. Washable is a lower level of being able to clean than scrubable.

To wash, it is a lightly passing over with a damp rag. Some true flats can withstand that and not burnish.

To scrub, is to take the same damp rag and apply force to it. This is where the difference between a true flat and a matte becomes apparent. With Ben and Natura Flat, the reps will tell you it is washable but not scrubable.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I've always seen it "scrubable". I will have to pay closer attention next time I'm at my paint store. 
Good point


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