# Use of Brushes and Tools by Employees



## bogie (May 3, 2012)

I have a painting crew of 5 people. In the beginning people brought their own tools but I see that they are not good quality - dull scrapers, old brushes, etc. Does anyone have a good advice on providing my workers with tools? I don't mind buying each worker a set of scrapers and brushes but how do I make sure they take good care of them. Some of the guys do side jobs, don't wash their brushes well, etc. Has anyone discovered a good practice? Should I make one person responsible for the washing or each takes their brush home at the end of the work day? I'd appreciate your advice.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

If you are going to buy their tools for them, I would suggest cleaning them as well at the end of each day. Maybe wash their whites for them as well and consider giving them bad conduct marks for getting extra paint on their whites. If you get 3 bad marks in a month, then you have to paint behind the toilet.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Buy them, and garnish their check. I have never had an employer buy my tools, and give them to me.


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## Steveqpp (Apr 25, 2012)

When I ran a crew I got tired of painters not having good tools. I gave them the hand tools they were required to have. I then painted a colored stripe on the tools. That way if any were laying around or dirty I knew who they belonged to. If they didn't have a tool with them I would get them a new one and take the cost out of their check. If the tool was used up I would replace it no problem. It worked for me. 

One more thing, if they quit I got the tools back or they would pay for them out of the last check.

Hope that helps.

Steve


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

At my last job, I was given a set of the basic size Purdy brushes and was told that they were my responsibility to maintain and replace when needed. I thought that was fair. Scapers were provided and replaced by the owner.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I was given a list of tools I needed to start work after I was hired for my first job. Basic stuff, screwdriver, 4 brushes, 5 in one, hammer, nail set, channel lock, carbide scraper(exterior work) spinner, stuff like that. I was told, no tools, no work. That went for the first week or so, after that, carbide blades etc were supplied by the owner.
Best way to see tools treated like crap, is to supply them straight off. Expectations have to be set, then the trust....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bogie said:


> I have a painting crew of 5 people. In the beginning people brought their own tools but I see that they are not good quality - dull scrapers, old brushes, etc. Does anyone have a good advice on providing my workers with tools? I don't mind buying each worker a set of scrapers and brushes but how do I make sure they take good care of them. Some of the guys do side jobs, don't wash their brushes well, etc. Has anyone discovered a good practice? Should I make one person responsible for the washing or each takes their brush home at the end of the work day? I'd appreciate your advice.


Good subject since our job is very much equipment dependent. 

How do you get painters to be disciplined about their tools, and how do you teach them the importance their tools contribute to the operation? I would say it's the responsibility of the employer to set the standards and be serious about them, as kdpaint alluded to.

I admire the painter or contractor who is very organized and takes care of their equipment. I for one am not that disciplined and no doubt make my job harder then it should be because I don't allow the time to maintain and organize my inventory like I know I should.

The problem I think is a lot of painters are programed to produce as fast as possible and to consume as much of the allowable time towards applying product.

So maybe the answer is to allow time for organizing and maintaining personal tool inventory instead of working everyone to the last minute. A culture will develop in the company that emphasizes the importance of tool and equipment maintenance. You may find in the long run that you're not only saving money but time also. Once painters recognize this, better tools will be available to perform better work.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Maintaining a balance between production and factors such as tool maintenance can be difficult. Case in point, often seen on jobs, is that rush at the end of the day, when everything gets chucked into a tote and everyone jets home. If the brushes and other tools are "the owner's" it breeds a poor attitude.
If I am responsible for my own tools, damned if Im going to do a poor job of cleaning my stuff, only to return to it the next day glopped up with dried paint. 
I have worked on sites where every am painters were saying stuff like "who used this frame/tray/gun etc. last?" Life is too short to deal with that. I do get that certain businesses are set up with good regulations, whereby equipment is clean or there are repercussions, but for many employers, there has to be a minimum of worker "ownership" whereby the worker has to feel invested in the work, or he usually does not work to his/her potential. Obviously I don't make employees buy sprayers or tips, but they buy their own sock and masks...


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I have recently began focusing more on organization and safety, and I recently spent almost $200 on safety gear (nitrile gloves, spray masks, dust masks, various filters for the masks, spray socks, etc.). I think that as an employer it is my responsibility to create a culture of safety and one of the ways I can foster that is by providing safety equipment. I have always bought the brushes and scrapers and been the one to maintain them, but there has only even been 3 of us on the job. I have often wondered how I'll deal with this issue when my company grows.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Spending money on safety gear is a good plan. That is something I did not mind spending on. Thankfully I am mostly done with work that requires it. Mpminter, as for spray masks, do you buy them for your guys or self? I shudder at the idea of "communal" masks....
One thing about employee gear is, if they have it, I pay them more. No mask? No spray for you. Can't spray? You max out in salary. I don't mean to sound harsh, I pay well and treat people well, but I am not a big operation, so equipment issues are not a biggie for me anymore.


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

I think of all the money I have invested in spray equipment, a pressure washer, the ladders, tarps, extension poles, lights, etc ..... I tell you, the hand tools are but a drop in the bucket!

Most of them have a limited life, no matter what you do. For example, a scraper might last half a year before it gets a razor-sharp edge, rounded corners, and damage-inducing nicks. So, I build the cost of these tools into the jobs.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I bought a mask for myself and one for a helper. It does have to be cleaned if a different person is going to use it, but no one touches mine!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

mpminter said:


> I bought a mask for myself and one for a helper. It does have to be cleaned if a different person is going to use it, but no one touches mine![/QUOTE
> 
> Respirators are so cheap that it is ridiculouse to ask anyone to share them.
> Yesterday I got a new guy a 3m respirator delivered with my paint from S.W.
> It cost about ten dollars and it comes with cartridges and prefilters. They almost give you the respirator so you get locked into buying their cartridges. Smart business move really.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I don't know what kind of respirator's you're using, but I paid $30 for the cheaper one my helper uses and almost $60 for mine.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

An employee who does not take care of all the tools on the job regardless of who they belong to is no longer employed. If a employee is not willing to be respectful of equipment, tools, supplies, etc, most likely they don't take pride in their work either so I have no use for them.


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## hotwing7 (Mar 31, 2012)

or you could tell them to change proffessions and become carpenters - then see how much tools would set them back.

Taking care of a few hand tools and spending $250 on basic equpment is far better than forking out $700 for a double bevelled super duper 12' all singing all dancing compound mitre saw.

On a serious note if you want to supply the tools its was a good idea above to do the paint stripe around the handle - but really  -they are not 6 year olds and lego. My gut instinct is - they buy their own tools and they look after them or they get fired.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I can't believe you do not provide tools for your employees that is crazy never heard of such a thing.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

If a painter does not own his own brushes, screwdriver, nail set, hammer, channel lock, respirator and other miscellaneous inexpensive tools (and freakin' painter's whites), it is hard for me to see him/her as a painter. I see them as a hack,trying his hand for a while at an "easy job," unwilling to invest in his profession. :yes:
However, I do not expect them to buy an sprayer, tips, baker staging, ladders, drops, power tools, vacs, festool:whistling2: pressure washer, paint, mud, wood patch, man lift etc.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

kdpaint said:


> If a painter does not own his own brushes, screwdriver, nail set, hammer, channel lock, respirator and other miscellaneous inexpensive tools (and freakin' painter's whites), it is hard for me to see him/her as a painter. I see them as a hack,trying his hand for a while at an "easy job," unwilling to invest in his profession. :yes:
> However, I do not expect them to buy an sprayer, tips, baker staging, ladders, drops, power tools, vacs, festool:whistling2: pressure washer, paint, mud, wood patch, man lift etc.


My feelings exactly. I cant tell you how many times I've interviewed a guy with "20 years experience" that didnt own a single brush!


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

It drives me nuts. All that experience painting, and no brushes? My first job (here I go again) my boss handed me a list of 7 things I needed to start work for him. I showed up with them, another guy did not. He was a better painter than I was. At the end of the day, he got paid and told "he wasnt going to work out." Willingness and respect go a loooong way in employment.:thumbup:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

jacob33 said:


> I can't believe you do not provide you tools for your employees that is crazy never heard of such a thing.


I'm with you. It's absurd.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

mpminter said:


> I don't know what kind of respirator's you're using, but I paid $30 for the cheaper one my helper uses and almost $60 for mine.


3M 7512 professional paint respirator


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

The funny part is the "new" employees want the most they can get, dollars wise. But when you tell them the tools required you get that blank stare and or you get "I have no money". I'm more than happy to help someone out but at least ou can dos show some effort

Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Um, I guess I don't get the whole "its crazy not to provide equipment" statements. It is not black and white. I don't expect employees to have personal 40 foot ladders or floor grinding equipment, but jeez, brushes? Screwdrivers and respirators? Painter's pants? Is this too much to ask?
No one is providing festool/kremlin products and a can of FPE to their new employees. And if you are, can I have a job?


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## TNpainter (Dec 7, 2011)

I get employees brushes and equipment at my cost all the time ill pay for it but it gets deducted come pay day I write the checks so they can't stiff me on there tools lol


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

jacob33 said:


> I can't believe you do not provide you tools for your employees that is crazy never heard of such a thing.


If you never heard happening what the majority of the professionals 
here are saying they are doing, 
then I wouldn't pass the crazy judgement that quickly.

Not a matter of money, you would flip to find out the kind of stuff ouir paintes get.
But learning to own and care about the tools of your trade,
is education number one and source of pride for some us.

Not crazy, just different and what works for others.
Wish running my business was a simple as buying 1 screwdriver and 3 brushes.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We have always provided all tools for employees. I figure a lot of the tools sme are saying they have the employee provide are consumables. Even roller frames are consumables.

I have thought about changing it though. Just never had to provide my own when I worked for someone else. And when I have thousands into sprayers, Vacs, sanders, ladders, trucks, trailers, etc I cannot see sweating who pays for a few paint brushes.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I think this thread got a little weird a ways back.... different size businesses have different ways of providing things for employees. I provide trays,frames, vacs, poles, buckets, sprayers etc. but I had to draw a line about brushes. Too much of a personal thing. Plus, if I heard someone look a gift brush in the mouth, I might have to can someone....:whistling2:


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

George Z said:


> If you never heard happening what the majority of the professionals
> here are saying they are doing,
> then I wouldn't pass the crazy judgement that quickly.
> 
> ...


 
I'm just saying that the few dollars on brushes and rollers are the owners responsibility. From what I have read you seem to provide good pay and benefits but what other proffesional job requires employees to buy their own tools. 

Their maybe others professional jobs that do but I do not know about them. Can you imagine a conoco philips, ernst and young, At&t.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

kdpaint said:


> It drives me nuts. All that experience painting, and no brushes? My first job (here I go again) my boss handed me a list of 7 things I needed to start work for him. I showed up with them, another guy did not. He was a better painter than I was. At the end of the day, he got paid and told "he wasnt going to work out." Willingness and respect go a loooong way in employment.:thumbup:


Is it possible that the other guy hired, who u admit was a better painter than u, had all said tools but just refused to use them on an hourly paying job? Is it possible that the contractors who insist on painters using their own tools are alienating the better available painters over a couple of dollars? Just saying.


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## pucks101 (Mar 29, 2012)

This is an interesting topic. Lot's of painters complain that their trade is looked at as being on the lower rung of skilled trades. But then many of the employers pay very low wages and expect their employees to take their barely-above-poverty-level wages and spend a good portion of it on consumable tools. If you're paying a guy $15/hour, and he's trying to raise a family, how can you be surprised he isn't willing to continually buy new Purdy brushes and other hand tools.
I have a lot of respect for the employers out here who are willing to provide their people with the necessary tools to do the job. That said there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking costs out of their checks for replacement costs due to abuse or neglect.
If painters want to be looked at as highly skilled professionals, uniformity is a great first step. That easily could include many of the basic tools along with the actual uniforms.
I think it's ironic how many people say how quickly they're willing to fire people for not buying the best equipment, because there's so many other threads discussing how hard it is to find good employees. Obviously there's lots of idiots trying to find that "easy job" who are not really skilled people at all, but maybe there are also just some really good painting contractors out there who make good employees by treating their people like skilled workers instead of just cheap, disposable help.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Definitely a good topic. Early in my business I had a painters tool list and a helper tool list, I might have gotten it from the Pdca or one of the Craftsman Press books on running a painting business. My painters were generally more my "peers" as in same age, same race, hang out afterwards sometimes. They typically provided all the basic tools on the list per my request, and took pride in and care of their tools. Fast forward a lot later and now my workforce is entirely hispanic ( Just three employees right now) plus my son this summer as the "token white guy". I had been providing a lot of my guys' tools, brushes, painter pants etc for quite a while and finally had enough. I'm not even sure how it came about. I'm still kinda flip flopping though as I got each of them a couple new pairs of whites at the latest SW proshow, I talked to many of my local Pdca friends and came to learn I was the exception to the rule in providing as much as I did. I also am at the upper range of pay, so it's not like I'm cheating them on wages and making up for it with free stuff. I began noticing we were going through a lot of brushes, so again reinstated my long lost list. It was met with resistance, but they have come to accept it and are taking much better care of their brushes, imagine that! 
I was also ticked off recently when I found a number of tips not cleaned out properly, and while I'm still not making them buy tips, I did have a "come to Jesus" talk with them, And got some of that krud kutter spray gun cleaner stuff, which is really great. So much nicer than having all the tips soaking in a can of lacquer.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Carpenters. mechanics, electricians are known to have a screwdriver or two, many more trades, even barbers.
It is not a matter of money. We will buy things for people that can't.
And we are not talking about the consumables either.
It is the ability to call a brush your own, or to make sure you have a screwdriver on you when you need one.
Maintaining your tools is training for any apprentice and trade.
Good luck training people to maintain tools they do not own.
As ar as finding good workers, we don't have a problem. 
There is no painting company(not one) in our area that offers what we offer. 
So really, it is not about the money.


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## TNpainter (Dec 7, 2011)

U don't continually buy brushes unless u r incapable of taking care of ur tools n that case I wouldn't hire. Guess I'm supposed to buy there lunch coffee cigs beer diapers being equipped to do ur job is part of it. U need hand tools and whites I supply caulk putty and material.


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## saveonpainting (Mar 17, 2010)

bogie said:


> I have a painting crew of 5 people. In the beginning people brought their own tools but I see that they are not good quality - dull scrapers, old brushes, etc. Does anyone have a good advice on providing my workers with tools? I don't mind buying each worker a set of scrapers and brushes but how do I make sure they take good care of them. Some of the guys do side jobs, don't wash their brushes well, etc. Has anyone discovered a good practice? Should I make one person responsible for the washing or each takes their brush home at the end of the work day? I'd appreciate your advice.


You could supply your crew with a brush and whites once or twice a month, set certain standards and expectations on uniform and tool handeling, and if they don't maintain or take care of their gear, supply them with more but charge it back on their payroll
Best is, to have this in writing in the employee handbook


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

bogie said:


> I have a painting crew of 5 people. In the beginning people brought their own tools but I see that they are not good quality - dull scrapers, old brushes, etc. Does anyone have a good advice on providing my workers with tools? I don't mind buying each worker a set of scrapers and brushes but how do I make sure they take good care of them. Some of the guys do side jobs, don't wash their brushes well, etc. Has anyone discovered a good practice? Should I make one person responsible for the washing or each takes their brush home at the end of the work day? I'd appreciate your advice.


If you don't have painters that value working with a good paint brush, I would question the professionalism of your employees.


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

What a touchy topic! No wonder, as there's no "right" answer.

Probably the best approach I've seen was by a plumbing contractor, who had maybe ten trucks doing service calls. His approach wasn't perfect, and was real accounting heavy, but here's what he did:

First off, he provided the truck, fully equipped, with a tool budget. A protion of every job was assigned to the budget for the truck. The plumber was free to go to the parts house and use the company account for any tools he wanted; they came out of the budget. Only when he went beyond budget was there an issue about getting approval. OTOH, if the budget was not used, it kept growing. There was a separate 'incentive plan' that gave the guys reasons to keep costs down, in general.

They hired a new guy who came to the jobsite and saw a couple tools I was using. He liked the approach, and showed up the next day with $1000 in new tools, to duplicate mine. (A cordless bandsaw and a certain impact driver). His boss had no issues with the purchases, and the guy was able to work a lot more effectively.

By comparison, there was another guy who persisted in 'walking' stepladders. He was lucky to get three months from such a ladder. Constantly depleting his tool budget replacing ladders made him quite unhappy, and eventually he moved on. Some folks will never learn .... but, at least, he wasn't in a position to ruin everyone's ladders.

Horror stories? Well, there's the moocher, the doper, and the squirrel.

The 'moocher' showed up without tools his first day - after having already sworn to the temp agency that he had every tool on the list. OK, well, maybe he came straight from the office. We carried him that day, but told him to be sure to bring his stuff tomorrow. He hemmed and hawed. We told him flat out that he had already signed the same list we did, and that it wasn't our job to subsidize him. He never returned.

The 'doper' was a "roofer" who showed up with a nail gun ... but no nails, no ladder, no hose, no compressor. He didn't even have a hammer. Naturally, he had a lovely tale about his ex-wife selling all his stuff, etc. He may have had a good story, but he didn't have a job; we sent him away. Did the same thing with numerous "carpenters" who also had also shown up with NO tools. 

The squirrel was a tougher nut to crack. That guy would sign out tools and hide them away, just so no one else could use them. Somehow he always had the nicest and newest tools, too. I don't know how that issue was resolved, as I move on myself after three days ... which was at least 2-1/ days more than I should have stayed. That was one messed up crew.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

mpminter said:


> I don't know what kind of respirator's you're using, but I paid $30 for the cheaper one my helper uses and almost $60 for mine.


This is all you need!


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

I generally tend to provide most basic tools. That is until they are not being cared for or left laying around. Then they are told to get their own.


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## PainterTommy (Nov 20, 2012)

When I started, I was given a 3" swan brush and a 2 1/2" angle sash. Wrecked them both. I learned quickly that good brushes stay good with proper cleaning, and buying my own brushes made me quickly learn proper cleaning. I believe a painter buying his own will make him appreciate them enough to take care of them.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

I agree this is a great thread and it got me thinking why I do what I do.

I have only had employees and subcontractors for the last three years. Before that I was too small. 

Like another poster here said, how can I expect a guy on wages or fixed price to supply brushes. I don't profit share with them, so they should not have to buy equipment required to complete my projects. 

The way I see it is, here in Australia a outside done with cement render / stucco? You could destroy a purdy in a month or so outside. If I had a couple of guys just doing outside work they would be buying 5 times the amount of brushes as the guys doing interior work. They don't get paid anymore money. 

Most guys that come and go have their own hand tools and brushes that they like to use, if they don't they can use my brushes no problem. 

I would much prefer they worry about putting paint on walls than worrying about a few hundered dollars worth of brushes to clean properly at the end of the day. They can make that in profit for me in an afternoon. I will do the cleaning and take the blame when I don't do it properly!!!!!!! 

Most of the time hand tools get misplaced or lost I look back and I have been at fault for pushing time lines to complete or get out of a job.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Buy them, and garnish their check. I have never had an employer buy my tools, and give them to me.


When I lived and worked in the South employees had to supply their own brushes on all the jobs I ever had.

I also never saw a paint company back there that provided health insurance until I came out west. Working for residential paint companies I have usually always supplied my own hand tools. Working for commercial shops I rarely had to supply anything. 

I worked for a shop a few years back and they totally hooked new emplyees up with a very nice and fully stocked grip. They also made everyone sign a paper that they were responsible for everything in the box. Total value....$500  I have no idea if that was even legal or what, but it was a pretty good shop to work for. 

Anyway, with all that having been said......I agree with Tommy. Buy them what they need and charge them for it. :yes:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

How does my last post look? I had it all typed up in one long paragraph, then it dawned on me Professor Tim could be by at any moment so I fixed it. :thumbup: Comments? :whistling2: Feedback? :whistling2: Another Gold Star? :yes:


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

Woodland said:


> How does my last post look? I had it all typed up in one long paragraph, then it dawned on me Professor Tim could be by at any moment so I fixed it. :thumbup: Comments? :whistling2: Feedback? :whistling2: Another Gold Star? :yes:


I am a fan of the paragraph or bullet pointing. So well done on the edited version. I also like the strategic use and added impact of the  great work!


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Repaintpro said:


> I am a fan of the paragraph or bullet pointing. So well done on the edited version. I also like the strategic use and added impact of the  great work!


The paragraph thing is a new inside joke between me and TJ. Theres another thread "How much per sq ft for interior painting" where he made a comment about me not having paragraphs. 

Its funny, ever since then I have been looking at other guys posts and realized I was like the only one here at PT that doesnt do paragraphs  NOT COOL!!!!!!! Some of my posts in the past hace been like novels. Paragraphs are nice. 

It also actually helped me realize the importance of paragraphs. I email my proposals to my customers. I have never done the paragraph thing before but will be doing it in the future. So, in a round about way......TJ did me a favor. :thumbsup: 

As for the ........Thats one of my favorite smilies here at PT. I use it alot :yes:


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## alabamahousepainters (Jun 30, 2013)

*Tools*

I don't let painters furnish tools. I furnish everything so that I know everyone has the right tools in his hands.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We buy our crew 1 paint brush and tell them since others have completely destroyed our other brushes you must buy your own and take care of them, if you dont have a brush it's either prep all day or go home. As for hand tools i see others saying the guys buy crap tools I agree, we supply every thing except the brushes, they do not take any thing home with them except their brush. Some of our newer guys are buying nicer tools and stuff which is fine.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I buy all the brushes,rollers,hand tools for our guys. This is what I was taught and this is what I do. We clean or brushes at the end of every day.

Safety gear is a must by the employer in Canada. We have to supply or guys with masks and new organic vapour cartridges. Or anything else for that matter.

That being said if I see broken or miss treated tools I will slap your face.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

IMO opinion it is absurd when a painting company doesn't give you the right tools to do the job. When you quote a job don't you add the money for tools that you will need in your overhead? So you would basically charge the customer money and then get your employee to pay for it?


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Auto mechanic
Plant maintenance
Hydraulic maintenance
Mould setter
Electrician
Aircraft mechanic

Just a few trades who buy their own tools, from personal experience. 

Ultimately its up to the business owner. If they can create and harbor an environment where the emloyees take pride not only in their work but their tools.

This happens by getting the employees mentally invested in the company they work for. Communication is key.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

I feel like, since brushes affect the final result of our work, and our name is what is represented on the job, they should be supplied. I don't want employees cutting bad or slow lines just because I'm too cheap to supply a brush that _costs _less than a few dollars per job.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> I feel like, since brushes affect the final result of our work, and our name is what is represented on the job, they should be supplied. I don't want employees cutting bad or slow lines just because I'm too cheap to supply a brush that _costs _less than a few dollars per job.



I agree but when you have to buy brushes for 5 or more employees it can start to add up, when they work with Carly and I they clean the brushes, once we leave them on their own they do not clean them or not clean enough, Thisis why we will supply one brush and they buy their own after. We do supply every thing else they need.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> I agree but when you have to buy brushes for 5 or more employees it can start to add up, when they work with Carly and I they clean the brushes, once we leave them on their own they do not clean them or not clean enough, Thisis why we will supply one brush and they buy their own after. We do supply every thing else they need.


Agreed


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I'm with cd on this. It can scale out of control. And it is a controllable expense. 

And like others said, a brush is a personal item. Some prefer woosters over purdys, 2 1/2 over 3, angle over straight, and so on. A basic toolset should be taken care of by the employee. Or maybe an allowane of $x/month. 

I haven't had paint employees yet, but when i do, i would imagine the allowance would be the best compromise (after the employee makes it through 30 day probation period).


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

A putty knife and a duster. That's all I ever bring to a job. The employer provides everything else. Putty knife and a duster.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

We provide all tools and proper training on how to care for those tools.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

SeaMonster said:


> We provide all tools and proper training on how to care for those tools.


We do as well, but they still seem to forget that at the end of the day unless we are there to make sure they do.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> Buy them, and garnish their check. I have never had an employer buy my tools, and give them to me.


An employer, has no legal right to withhold an employees pay.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

driftweed said:


> Auto mechanic
> Plant maintenance
> Hydraulic maintenance
> Mould setter
> ...


Locksmith

I feel a pro painter should own their own basic tools.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

MuraCoat said:


> An employer, has no legal right to withhold an employees pay.


Sorry but you have every right to get paid for tools sold to employees.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Is it a huge deal if a couple of employees destroy a few brushes?


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Sorry but you have every right to get paid for tools sold to employees.


No you dont. 
I'm amazed by how many painters have no knowledge about running a business.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

I have no problem providing expendables such as sleeves,razor blades etc...Obviously a brush is expendable so giving a brush to an employee every 6-8 weeks is fine with me.

They must have a toolbox with basic hand tools...We are professionals.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

SeaMonster said:


> No you dont.
> I'm amazed by how many painters have no knowledge about running a business.


If I choose to sell tools, financing them for free at that, to my employees it is well within the law for me to do so. You can drop the holier than thou attitude with me, I am far from an idiot.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> Sorry but you have every right to get paid for tools sold to employees.


According to the labor board, you have no legal right to withhold anyone's paycheck or any portion of it. The only exception would be, is if they sign something agreeing to that.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I will bow out of this conversation. You guys have it all figured out.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> I will bow out of this conversation. You guys have it all figured out.


I have a good idea, tell the employees, that it is required for them to buy their own tools, "quality tools", or they don't work for your company. Generally speaking, employees will always be abusive to your equipment.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

It not a matter of a couple brushes a week.

If you had 12 employees not cleaning their brush at the end of the shift and wasting them, it adds up. Now your going through 12 brushes/day. It's scalable. In small amounts, yeah who gives a crap. 

When I was a mould setter, we got free channelock pliers (stocked at the supply crib). $15 pliers. We went through so many from taking them home, not keeping track of them, abusing them that eventually the company made us start buying them. Better believe we took care of them then.

A year later, after we groaned so much, we were given a yearly allowance for tools. When I left that job, i suddenly discovered I had over 40 pairs of pliers from always bringing them home and not taking them back into work.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Funny topic 

That's a good idea. Increase profits by selling tools to your help.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

SeaMonster said:


> No you dont.
> I'm amazed by how many painters have no knowledge about running a business.


Because most don't is why most will never run a company. Most find it easier to follow and work for others. Some decide to lead and start their own. Those who succeed count every penny. Including making workers buy their own hand tools but compensating well to those who make the cut, and treat the company as if it was their own.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

One of the best guys I had, completely trustworthy and very hard working, had a tendency to drop and break expensive tools, like festool RO150 sanders ($450), and Leister heat guns that cost $200 to replace the elements. He wuld also drag the festool sanders across the pavement by their cords, which grinds flat spots on the controls...but I never charged him...


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Zoomer said:


> Because most don't is why most will never run a company. Most find it easier to follow and work for others. Some decide to lead and start their own. Those who succeed count every penny. Including making workers buy their own hand tools but compensating well to those who make the cut, and treat the company as if it was their own.


Ehh sometimes penny wise is a dollar foolish. Just sayin. Cause I seen it is all.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Generally, I would rather just provide brushes and rollers for workers. I know what tools I want to be used on a particular job, and have them there. 
Someone providing there own tools is great, but the guy that comes to paint square trim on an exterior with his 2.5 inch corona is costing me more money by taking twice as long to do it, than if I already have a mini roller/brush rig waiting for them to use right away. 
Similar with interiors.. Certain roller naps for certain things, don't try to paint trim with a 1.5 inch brush,etc... 

Idk. The old adage that materials are cheaper than labor comes into my thought process a lot... And a top wage painter taking 45 mins to clean there favorite brushes every day can add up quick. I would rather pay an apprentice for an hr or two to clean up tools at the shop or something than loose that on site time for painters. And having the tools be company owned and controlled makes that work better.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

I can buy a quality brush @ $8.00 ea a case of 24 = $192.00

if i pay a painter $15 (Florida) and he takes 30 min to clean up its cost me $7.50 ... if he works to the end of day & throws the brush in the trash it cost me .50 cents ... plus i get a little more work

Keep the brush as a souvenir *and give me 8 full hours work *
:jester:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> I can buy a quality brush @ $8.00 ea a case of 24 = $192.00
> 
> if i pay a painter $15 (Florida) and he takes 30 min to clean up its cost me $7.50 ... if he works to the end of day & throws the brush in the trash it cost me .50 cents ... plus i get a little more work
> 
> ...


That's roughly $2,400.00 a year. Our employees can buy their own. We can spend that money on better tools to make life easier.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I think you can be the boss and supply your guys with tools or you can be the boss and ask your guys to buy their own. Whichever way you go is up to the boss and either method has it's pluses and minuses. I don't think it's right to say that one way or the other is stupid though and that there is only one right way. If you give the guys tools, obviously some may not respect those tools and they will get trashed. If you make them buy their own, they may respect them more but some guys are cheap/poor and can't afford this. I remember before I had my own gig, I worked for a fairly large company and when I got the job the boss said here take this sheet and buy these items, you are required to have these items at all times. If you can't afford it, I will buy them and take the money out of your first check. It was a list of about 15 or 20 things, nothing crazy of course, but over time I started to take some pride in my collection of tools I was accumulating and I noticed that most guys on the crews did the same thing. The more stuff you had, the more versatile and valuable you became as an employee which ultimately lead to more raises. I thought it was a good way to do it. I also think it's hard to tell a painter what brush to use because every guy has their own preference. I think Purdys are crap and angled brushes are worthless, but that doesn't mean that all painters using Purdy angle brushes are bad painters. Is it really so much to ask an employee to drop 15 or 20 bucks every month or two on a decent paintbrush?


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

makes sense the way you put it Carl


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Repaint Florida said:


> I can buy a quality brush @ $8.00 ea a case of 24 = $192.00
> 
> if i pay a painter $15 (Florida) and he takes 30 min to clean up its cost me $7.50 ... if he works to the end of day & throws the brush in the trash it cost me .50 cents ... plus i get a little more work
> 
> ...


Where on earth are you finding a quality brush for $8? 

And, who on earth spends 30 minutes cleaning 1 brush?

I guess that's what $8 brushes gets you?


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

Repaint Florida said:


> I can buy a quality brush @ $8.00 ea a case of 24 = $192.00
> 
> if i pay a painter $15 (Florida) and he takes 30 min to clean up its cost me $7.50 ... if he works to the end of day & throws the brush in the trash it cost me .50 cents ... plus i get a little more work
> 
> ...


I don't know where you get a quality paint brush for 8 dollars? I also don't know how its possible to spend 30 minutes cleaning a paintbrush?


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

Hines Painting said:


> Where on earth are you finding a quality brush for $8?
> 
> And, who on earth spends 30 minutes cleaning 1 brush?
> 
> I guess that's what $8 brushes gets you?


He must shop at Ace Hardware. Or the dollar store, haha


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

This is one reason I wouldn't wanna work for many painters.

You can't provide brushes for help that makes you money? 

I guess I don't need to ask about any dental or medical either.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> Where on earth are you finding a quality brush for $8?
> 
> And, who on earth spends 30 minutes cleaning 1 brush?
> 
> I guess that's what $8 brushes gets you?



I know if you search the interweb thingy you can find a case of 24 Purdy 2 1/2" for under $10.00 each, the 3" roughly $12.00. You will never get these case prices in the paint store. After seeing that post I started looking around and may buy a case just for myself, hmmmm maybe I can just rent then to the employees, a buck a day, 5 bucks a day if they don't clean them or clean them right.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> This is one reason I wouldn't wanna work for many painters.
> 
> You can't provide brushes for help that makes you money?
> 
> I guess I don't need to ask about any dental or medical either.


Day one, employee uses your paintbrush, day 2 paint brush is stiff because employee did not clean it properly. Day 3, employees buys his own paintbrush. Are you getting my drift?


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

We have 40 painters and paint supervisors and we supply every tool including all carpentry tools. If you have a favorite duster or 5 n 1 then bring it to work. Leave every other tool that you own at home.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

Roamer said:


> We have 40 painters and paint supervisors and we supply every tool including all carpentry tools. If you have a favorite duster or 5 n 1 then bring it to work. Leave every other tool that you own at home.


Have you ever estimated, how much money you lose per year doing all of the above?


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> This is one reason I wouldn't wanna work for many painters.
> 
> You can't provide brushes for help that makes you money?
> 
> I guess I don't need to ask about any dental or medical either.


Can you provide dental and medical insurance for yourself or any of your employees? If you have or had any?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

This is an argument that will live as long as the profession.

It is true that people will take better care of their own tools than company tools - that just seems to be human nature.

One "compromise" I heard was that the company bought the first brush, it it got lost, abused, or unfit to use do to neglect - the employee paid for a new one. Same true with small hand tools. 

The problem with forcing your employees to buy their own brushes and such is they may very likely buy cheap sub-standard tools and waste more time than the tool is worth. But then again, no company should allow the wanton loss of tools. The company can buy good brushes in bulk and save the employee some money on replacement


Larger more expensive tools were supplied by the company. You can make up your own rules on them to discourage abuse. 

In a larger company, instead of having many employees trying to wash their brushes out at the same time, appoint a brush cleaner for the day. While the other equip is being put away for the day, one guy cleans the brushes. It's a rotating job. I only had 3 - 5 workers and that worked well. One brush should take no longer than five minutes. I wash out brush, sleeve, tray and cut pot in 5 - 7 minutes. (waterborne)


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

daArch said:


> This is an argument that will live as long as the profession.
> 
> It is true that people will take better care of their own tools than company tools - that just seems to be human nature.
> 
> ...


That's interesting how this profession works. I know a guy who does auto body repair and painting, and he owns several thousand dollars worth of his own tools that he keeps in a gang box. When he is hired to work for a company, he brings his gang box and drops it off at the shop, and it stays there. And, he uses all his own tools.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

MuraCoat said:


> That's interesting tell this profession works. I know a guy who does auto body repair and painting, and he owns several thousand dollars worth of his own tools that he keeps in a gang box. When he is hired to work for a company, he brings his gang box and drops it off at the shop, and it stays there. And, he uses all his own tools.


I know a guy who thinks behr is better than aura. There's all kinds.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> I know a guy who thinks behr is better than aura. There's all kinds.


And who might that be?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

MuraCoat said:


> That's interesting how this profession works. I know a guy who does auto body repair and painting, and he owns several thousand dollars worth of his own tools that he keeps in a gang box. When he is hired to work for a company, he brings his gang box and drops it off at the shop, and it stays there. And, he uses all his own tools.


Yes, it is interesting how different professions work.

Auto mechanics DO supply their own hand tools - although not the expensive lifts, compressors, balancing machines, grinders, millers, etc etc.

In an architectural office where I summered once, the hand tools were supplied by the company.

Landscaping companies supply the rakes, shovels, blowers, etc.

Carpenters (usually) supply their own tools. When I summered for one of them, I bought my own hammer, cat's paw, and a few other basic tools. Company owned the power stuff. 

We could go on ad nausem making a list of different professions that approach it differently.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I still say if you don't get your employees imvolved in your company, it wont matter who buys what. 

Give your employees a sense that they are invested in your company, and they will value your tools & their own.

Start a safety comitee where the employees are encouraged to be proactive about issues (let them help choose topics for your monthly safety meetings, act on suggestions, etc..). Create a safety bonus system where they get a bonus 2 times/ year for being incident free.

Reward them for sharing ideas on better production/ cutting costs.

If there is a disconnect between your company and its employees, they aint gonna buy quality tools and they definitely won't take care of your tools.

Thats how a fortune 500 comp i worked for did things. And they were voted forbes best place to work a few years.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

daArch said:


> Yes, it is interesting how different professions work.
> 
> Auto mechanics DO supply their own hand tools - although not the expensive lifts, compressors, balancing machines, grinders, millers, etc etc.
> 
> ...


Well arch, we are all independent contractors, and there is no right and wrong way to handle this type of situation. As an independent contractor, we have the power to make our own set of rules that employees have to adhere to. Just from experience, I find that employees could give a damn about my equipment. That includes the cleanliness of my vehicles. Nothing worse than a painter getting paint all over the exterior doors, seats, capping paint cans halfway and they end up spillover in the truck etc. Employees equals problems and headaches.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

MuraCoat said:


> Have you ever estimated, how much money you lose per year doing all of the above?


We track all of our costs. Tools and equipment are no different. We spend less than .01% of our total costs to run a business on the tools necessary to outfit each truck.

And as a matter of fact every employee is entitled to join the our health insurance plan after 6 months of employment. We pay 50% of their individual coverage for the first two years of employment. Full individual after 2 years and full family coverage after 5 years. 

In turn we have a very good rate of retention and have dedicated employees.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

MuraCoat said:


> Well arch, we are all independent contractors, and there is no right and wrong way to handle this type of situation. As an independent contractor, we have the power to make our own set of rules that employees have to adhere to. Just from experience, I find that employees could give a damn about my equipment. That includes the cleanliness of my vehicles. Nothing worse than a painter getting paint all over the exterior doors, seats, capping paint cans halfway and they end up spillover in the truck etc. Employees equals problems and headaches.


You are absolutely correct about independent, no right or wrong, and the all too common lack of respect for the company/bosses junk.

I think this post by driftweed addresses the issue. 



driftweed said:


> I still say if you don't get your employees imvolved in your company, it wont matter who buys what.
> 
> Give your employees a sense that they are invested in your company, and they will value your tools & their own.
> 
> ...


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Brushes are the least of your expenses.


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## Doolucks (Apr 18, 2013)

I love my tools. Occasionally i ask my employer for a new linbide scraper blade, and a monarch brush pack. But I look after all tools. It's probably the first lesson l learned.
I do buy my own syntox brushes for clears and choose to use my own 460m microfibres rollers. Just save me time and are a pleasure to use.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

MuraCoat said:


> Well arch, we are all independent contractors, and there is no right and wrong way to handle this type of situation. As an independent contractor, we have the power to make our own set of rules that employees have to adhere to. Just from experience, I find that employees could give a damn about my equipment. That includes the cleanliness of my vehicles. Nothing worse than a painter getting paint all over the exterior doors, seats, capping paint cans halfway and they end up spillover in the truck etc. Employees equals problems and headaches.


Maybe it's the paint you make them use... I keed... either way, you sound like a real dream to work for.


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