# Seriously damaged cabinets



## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey all,

I'm not kidding with the title. The lady tried cleaning with oven cleaner :vs_no_no_no:

I just read through a great thread by @RH
http://www.painttalk.com/f90/cabinet-refinishing-process-63209/

but I have to take it a step further, what to do with this level of damage???

I don't want to use chemical strippers. I've sanded one to bare wood and it's a pain. Sanding the little edges is not fun. 
I'm seeking tips for sanding those sections to bare wood.

Besides that the orbital works great for the larger areas.

Also, Not all of them are this screwed. Maybe 1/4. Do you think I can get away with scuff sanding and @RH 's process to match the bare wood ones to the others?

The plan is for them to stay the color presented, maybe even a slightly lighter tone. 


I've never "attached" photos before here. If the attachment doesn't work, this link to google photos aught to work.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wqI5ux4st7mF50aC2


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Prime and paint. You could try a wood bleach but i doubt it would work. May be worth a try though. Probably cheaper in the long run just to replace them.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

If they were to be replaced, I wouldn't be getting the work!
This is a referral through a nearby cabinet/tile company.

That was one of the amendments to my estimate- if I felt like all was hopeless to refinish to either paint the set or replace doors. Unfortunately the bases are 1.5 hrs away. 

I tested one and the black mess is sanding out with the orbital. I just don't want to hand sand all the other crevices...for obvious reasons.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Center_line_Painting said:


> If they were to be replaced, I wouldn't be getting the work!
> This is a referral through a nearby cabinet/tile company.
> 
> That was one of the amendments to my estimate- if I felt like all was hopeless to refinish to either paint the set or replace doors. Unfortunately the bases are 1.5 hrs away.
> ...


I'd say try some wood bleach in those crevices if you can sand through it pretty easily. (well, relatively) It might take some of that discoloration out without having to sand down in them. Def worth a try.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> I'd say try some wood bleach in those crevices if you can sand through it pretty easily. (well, relatively) It might take some of that *discoloration *out without having to sand down in them. Def worth a try.


Isn't oven cleaner usually sodium hydroxide?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

With light colored cabinets I think you might find that it will be tough to get rid of that dark staining without sanding it down pretty well. Even then, there _might_ be a bit of it still visible. I did a set this past summer that were the same light color and in similar condition. But they were all smooth, no panels or framing, and pretty easy to sand out.

You can sure try the bleaching process to see if it helps. Otherwise sand as needed, match the color and restain, top coat. Of course the biggest issue will be restraining so the damaged spots don’t stand out (duh). So sanding out a ways and feathering out the new stain into the older will be necessary. Sometimes I find sanding out the entire face of frames is needed so if there is a *slight* color change, it will be between there and the panels - something that won’t be as noticeable. Color changes on the routed edges will be least noticeable.

Oven cleaner???


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

The discoloration goes beyond the finish into the wood. 

I'm going to go at just one door- none of the wood is stained, it's all natural w/ clear.
Process as of now is just sand down, wood bleach, and poly. 
If the poly activates some chemical mess, I'll start digging for more ideas. 
Perhaps trying a coat of sealcoat then poly. If the color is off, sealcoat, stain, then poly. 
Many options....hopefully everything will go simply and be fine.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Just a head’s up, even though the wood is unstained, if you try and refinish just a damaged corner you may find that after it’s cleaned and sanded it won’t match the rest of the door due to ambering of the wood and clear coat over time. So some light staining _may_ be necessary to get a uniform look.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

okay, yeah, my plan was to sand them all down. Fully.
I'll consider that as a shortcut. the HO gave me a sample door from another set in the house that's a smidge brighter than these. Basically, she wants them to look the same.
When sanded to bare wood they match. I don't mind the extra labor too much, things are a bit slow this month for me. Thankfully.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Looks like the sodium or potassium hydroxide in oven cleaner has oxidized the tannins in the wood and turned them dark (much like ammonia does on oak). I would be surprised if it all sands out. Try the back of one door and sand it all the way down to bare wood. Since you are a BIN user, you can lightly tone and seal with clear shellac and then topcoat with poly of choice. You can darken clear shellac with a little amber shellac. Zinnser makes several different shades. I have found that the most shellacs have very little wax in them so don't worry about adherence of topcoat over waxed shellac. Still maybe cheaper to replace. I am assuming frames are OK?


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

Coverstain with Advance top coat= problem solved for me.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

@Lazerlnes the point of our work is to serve the customer not ourselves.

As I mentioned, my estimate had multiple options put on the table.
@Tprice2193 It sanded out. idk about replacement pricing. The fact that a cabinet shop has me working on it says new is pricier. 
I don't know if sealing it is all that necessary. The cabinet shop just wants me to sand it down and clear...see what happens, that's what I'm gonna do. 
I suppose the sealcoat would be to help prevent fisheyes and the like?
Why BIN over sealcoat?

And actually ambering is something I'm avoiding. I want it as bright and close to the natural wood tone as possible.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Why can't I edit my last post?

I'll rephrase the question. Why would you choose BIN instead of sealcoat?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Center_line_Painting said:


> Why can't I edit my last post?


Editing is only available for I believe 30 minutes after posting. Not sure why, that's just the way it is.

Only thing I have to add to this thread is I'd be concerned being around the HO in the kitchen. When someone decides oven cleaner is something they should use to clean their cabinets, one has to seriously question their judgement generally.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Back to the original question in the first post, I have a Festool which actually can be manipulated to hit much of those edges. It’s not perfect for them but actually gets much of the profile. Assume you have used sanding sponges. They come in pretty handy for getting difficult areas. 
Also, a brief online search turns up a bunch of methods for creating custom sanding blocks for specific profiles. I’ve never made one but might be worth looking into.
Personally I am not a big fan of chemical strippers but some here have good lunch with them.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback....You are correct sealcoat clear shellac sealer is exactly what you want to use not BIN. Sorry that didn't come off right. I use a more amber shellac mixed with sealcoat to get a slight tone to emphasize patterns in the wood. Esp if using a waterbased clear topcoat. I suggested this as a way of matching to old finish if necessary. Glad the sanding is getting the dark stuff out...what do you plan to topcoat with?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> Personally I am not a big fan of chemical strippers but some here have good lunch with them.


Good lunch with a chemical stripper?! Man, those guys must be tough!

:smile:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Good lunch with a chemical stripper?! Man, those guys must be tough!
> 
> :smile:


LOL... just caught that... not going to edit it.

My best typo yet is still, ”...spaying with an HVLP...” Ouch! :surprise:


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

Center_line_Painting said:


> @Lazerlnes the point of our work is to serve the customer not ourselves.
> 
> As I mentioned, my estimate had multiple options put on the table.
> @Tprice2193 It sanded out. idk about replacement pricing. The fact that a cabinet shop has me working on it says new is pricier.
> ...


 I'm sorry, by avoiding sanding down to bare wood below the discoloration.I assumed you where looking for an easier option for yourself. Anything short of that will look like sheet i.m.h.o. so painted is what I would offer up as an option to put a quality finish on those cabs. I'm always for producing the best results for the customer and anything short of sanding below discoloration leave me to paint. But since you decided to sand it down and they will pay for it by all means that is the best option. I wouldn't lose my shirt on it. They would really have to pay for what it will take or it's not on the table.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

LOL @RH

big thanks for the sanding block idea. It's great to have such a wealth of knowledge to access here, I would've never thought of that! I may resort to the stripper to boost production. 

I just bought a Dremel that has a certain sanding head that might get to all the right corners. I'll share if that works. No way I'm capable of getting anything Festool....yet. 2nd yr of business.
@Tprice2193 My topcoat will either be Lenmar satin aqua plastic or general finishes satin waterborne poly. Both in stock. I'll probably flip a coin. 
Curious, (since I've never done it or thought to) what's the amber tinted product you add to your top coat process? 
Reading through RH's thread kind of sold me on the emtech WB conversion varnish. For next time that is. I'm on the same on the same page as RH regarding the evolution of paint technology and the need to protect the workers health. 

@Lazerlnes to bare wood has been my plan from the get go. 
I mentioned earlier I gave them many options (and my preferences) in the proposal. If the customer wants it, I'm happy to safely go outside my comfort zone.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Center_line_Painting said:


> LOL @RH
> 
> big thanks for the sanding block idea. It's great to have such a wealth of knowledge to access here, I would've never thought of that! I may resort to the stripper to boost production.
> 
> ...



Careful with the Dremel tool. They are so small and high speed that the slightest jerk (as in movement - not personality) can cause them to put a divot in a wood surface. Just make sure you practice with one on a piece of scrap or the back of a door where mistakes might not be visible. 
Plus, again coming back to their size, they might end up taking forever to accomplish what you want done. Keep us informed if you get it to work for you.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

CenterlinePainting - I use Sealcoat Universal Sealer or its Identical cousin Zinsser Clear Shellac and Zinnser Amber shellac. I start with 3 parts Clear and 1 part Amber and work my way up to desired tone. Start with Quart cans of each and a teaspoon to measure. Once you get your ratio you can upscale it to quarter cups. Not a lot of science just some care with measurements. Will have to run a few tests but as you know shellac will dry fast. Sealing and toning in one step. Generalfinishes waterbourne poly over wood will be pretty plain almost no warmth. Sealcoat will warm it up a little. Put a little amber shellac in your sealcoat it gets even warmer. Gives you excellent control. Makes your water poly look like oil poly. This is OLD SCHOOL... production operations will use dyes to acheive similar results. Hard core woodfinishers will mix their own shellac from alcohol and shellac flakes that come in 4 colors blonde, orange, garnet, and super blonde. Zinnser used to put expiration date on cans but stopped when Rust-Oleum bought them. Old shellac may not dry properly. Two years is about it.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Quick update to the thread:

The dremel is a badass helper. Glad I bought this thing. 
I sanded a door today in a few minutes of my spare time.
Mostly by hand, but the dremel gets all the PIA hard to reach spots flawlessly.
It can do the whole bit of routed edges, but the heads wear out too quickly. 

I used these heads and a Dremel with variable RPM's. it's a solid method. If I can find a cheap supplier for a similar 280 grit product, I will pass the info on. some cheap stuff on amazon, but everyone is selling multiple grits.. I just want the 280.

https://smile.amazon.com/Dremel-511...sr=1-4&keywords=dremel+abrasive+buff+180+grit


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## burchptg (Jun 30, 2013)

I once had to stain a bunch of wood (redwood if I remember correctly) that had gotten badly marred by black stains. I got the stains out with lemon juice, believe it or not. Cut lemons in half, rub the cut side over the wood until wet, then let dry overnight. The wood came out bright and fresh.

I don't know if this will work in your case, but it can't hurt.


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## Steve G. (Feb 3, 2018)

RH said:


> a brief online search turns up a bunch of methods for creating custom sanding blocks for specific profiles. I’ve never made one but might be worth looking into.
> Personally I am not a big fan of chemical strippers but some here have good lunch with them.


I use Webb brand sanding sponges and order them in all kinds of shapes and sizes. I also buy spruce pine (square and rectangular art wood) from the hobby store and I cut them to size, then Elmer's glue sandpaper to them. I've made T-sanders in minutes (CA Glue) right on-site and they are excellent in performance since any configuration can be made.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

You can also use styrofoam! You can shape it easily and you can get it i form so it goes into the grooves pretty easily. Just get some styrofoam safe spray adhesive and glue the sandpaper onto it.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey guys,
This back burner project was completed some weeks ago. 
Here's a final picture, and an album to go along with it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8UwFoOwTUDN8vYky1


I went the stripper route after a few hours of thinking, "there's got to be a better way." 

It was better, messier, deadlier. The finish was good enough for this customer...they actually loved the work. There were some imperfections here and there....some stuff I missed when clearing the original coating. Winter temps in my shop likely had to do with it....60-65ish F. 

I think only a painter or woodworker would notice those slight color variances that just looked like occasional blonde streaks. 

Hvlp spraying Satin lenmar poly and zinnser seal coat. 

I used these wheel buffs for the dremel. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YWRBFVK/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&th=1

100 of them for $20...I used the 240 grit and will pick up the 150 grit and 80 next time the need comes up. Very useful tool.

Thanks for the forum inspiration and professional opinions. I would have been tons more frustrated without ya'll.
micro bubbling was really ticking me off this time around, but the final, 3rd coat of poly basically hid all sins the wet sanding couldn't handle.

I did use oxalic acid and that helped a bunch with the black chemical burns. I used that after stripping and sanding down intensively though. The black did burn deep into the wood.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

I didn't have the time to really look into or experiment with the custom sanding block suggestions. a great idea, but at a certain point the project just needed to be finished


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## Jimithing616 (Mar 18, 2018)

RH said:


> Back to the original question in the first post, I have a Festool which actually can be manipulated to hit much of those edges. It’s not perfect for them but actually gets much of the profile. Assume you have used sanding sponges. They come in pretty handy for getting difficult areas.
> Also, a brief online search turns up a bunch of methods for creating custom sanding blocks for specific profiles. I’ve never made one but might be worth looking into.
> Personally I am not a big fan of chemical strippers but some here have good lunch with them.


Sanding is something I know a good deal about!

Go to Rockler or another woodworking store.

Rockler has what’s called contoured sanding pads. They are great. Work amazing for things like this. Trust me. 

If you wanted to go a powered route, you could get a delta shale sander, I have a 12v cordless Bosch one, it has a triangle shaped sanding pad and the point gets into tough little spots, it also has variable speed so you can go real low and not sand down the detail accidentally. Always use 220 or 320 on detail work I’d say. 

They also have lots of different finishes from General Finishes and Zinsser etc that will work out.

To answer your question about BIN vs Sealcoat, I don’t really understand... BIN is white primer that has a shellac base. SealCoat is a clear or amber colored shellac that’s used as a first coat on unfinished wood to seal it before using a stain on blotchy wood, or using a top coat like poly. It’s just dewaxed shellac basically, the lack of wax helps stain or too coat stick, as waxed shellac (all other shellac basically) can cause issues with top coats.... in practice Zinsser shellac has very little wax and should be ok. But, YMMV and why not use seal coat to be safe, especially if you want a clear finish, no amber.

Hope that helps


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Center_line_Painting - I just noticed your follow-up on your oven cleaner damage project. Thank you for posting the pics. Man you really did a good job on those cabinets. You got the exact finish you were planning on. You listened to advice, methodically made your decisions and executed it extremly well. Those doors were ready for the dumpster....now they are ready for the showroom.


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