# Drywall primers.



## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

I just wanted to throw out there that after reading Jack Pauhls module on drywall primers. I must agree that they are completely useless. My opinion.
Ive sprayed and backrolled what seems like miles of pva. And all that other crap. And it does nothing for topcoats.
Plus here in California from IT offices jobs all the way to Mansions, know body barley runs a true level 5.
Whats you guys opinion?




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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Zinnsers 123. Does s decent job at sealing plus doesn't cost too much.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Honestly, PVA primers have been pretty useless for years now. Most drywall manufacturers spec a high solids primer (yes they provide finishing specs), which with todays high solids paint can pretty much be done with two coats of paint. Flat anyway. If you are using a satin or shinier, a high holdout primer will give you a much more uniform finish than two coats of paint. Part of the problem some people have with eggshell touch up is caused by a poor holdout of the primer.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Pretty much agree. PVA and other cheap drywall primers serve very little purpose. It's often said that they "equalize porosity" of the wallboard. That's true, the whole wall is left porous as a sponge ready to suck the life out of your first top coat. 

Good sealing primers like 123 or Gardz are a different story. If I'm going to bother to prime new drywall at all, it's going to be with one of those two or something comparable.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Carl said:


> Zinnsers 123. Does s decent job at sealing plus doesn't cost too much.


I just finished a job where a significant installation of new drywall and texture was blended with an existing wall that had been previously painted with a low sheen.

One coat of ZInnser 123, provided an excellent sealing foundation for two subsequent coats of Kelly Moore 550 interior flat. Granted, there was no longer a sheen, but you still couldn't tell where the new drywall ended and the existing began.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We had a contractor ask us if we used PVA primers. I said no they aren't worth it. This guy does top quality work and if he asks us to do it we will.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The first guy I ever worked for in the trades was a handyman. He told me 123 and Coverstain were the only primers I'd ever need to use. Having grown a bit (quite a bit) beyond his paint skill set at this point I've realized there are other situations requiring different products like BIN, etc., but for the most part he's still correct.

Someone on here a while back said they thought 123 was garbage. I can't remember who it was, but I remember thinking "that's insane".


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I agree with the coverstain and 123, but I can't help wondering if they haven't been cheapened through the years. How else could they still be sold at the box stores for what I was selling them for 25 years ago? They still work pretty well though. Everything else in the paint business has gone up but why not them? Or the Kilz primers? Pretty much the same pricing as always. Think about the price of mineral spirits. It was about $1.99 for almost twenty years then all of the sudden in the last 6 or 7 years it's gone through the roof.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I agree with the coverstain and 123, but I can't help wondering if they haven't been cheapened through the years. How else could they still be sold at the box stores for what I was selling them for 25 years ago? They still work pretty well though. Everything else in the paint business has gone up but why not them? Or the Kilz primers? Pretty much the same pricing as always. Think about the price of mineral spirits. It was about $1.99 for almost twenty years then all of the sudden in the last 6 or 7 years it's gone through the roof.


This is one thing I never paid attention to the prices until recently. I almost shat at how much it is now. Here I am thinking it was still under $5 a gallon.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I agree with the coverstain and 123, but I can't help wondering if they haven't been cheapened through the years. How else could they still be sold at the box stores for what I was selling them for 25 years ago? They still work pretty well though. Everything else in the paint business has gone up but why not them? Or the Kilz primers? Pretty much the same pricing as always. Think about the price of mineral spirits. It was about $1.99 for almost twenty years then all of the sudden in the last 6 or 7 years it's gone through the roof.


With the new VOC rules they've had to reformulate. 

As for drywall primers we use X-pert primer/sealer. That stuff have a good heavy body, and covers/seals very nicely


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> With the new VOC rules they've had to reformulate.
> 
> How did they manage to reformulate and keep their prices down when no one else could. Maybe they did but they are just putting it to the end users. Who knows. They could have loaded them up with some cheap extender pigments like clay or chalk, but I think every painter would have noticed that. The 123 is easy, just add more water to make it cheaper, but the coverstain is a big question to me. I just loaded a painter and he had a gallon of coverstain on his van and I asked him to lift it and the gallon of P&L M/P alkyd primer I just sold him. He said the coverstain felt like it weighed about 2/3 of what the P&L did.


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## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

123 is a great primer and there is applications where primer is the main ingredient.
But for drywall. Im not thinking it matters too much anymore.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Clearlycut said:


> 123 is a great primer and there is applications where primer is the main ingredient.
> But for drywall. Im not thinking it matters too much anymore.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using PaintTalk.com mobile app


In terms of many waterborne paints these days having the supposed performance quality of a primer/finish in one, I still have concerns of high a alkaline substrate, like joint cement on bare drywall, and if a primer like 
PVA sealer, or a Zinnser 123 might not be a better choice. 

I recently did a job where the existing paint peeled away in sheets from the existing drywall, exposing the original skip texture from 1968. Absolutely no adherence between materials.

_Disclaimer: I am making an assumption of the alkalinity in joint cement since I have not actually performed a pH test on any. _

Addendum: The MSDS for USG All Purpose Joint Compound states a pH level of 7.5-9


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Honestly, PVA primers have been pretty useless for years now. Most drywall manufacturers spec a high solids primer (yes they provide finishing specs), which with todays high solids paint can pretty much be done with two coats of paint. Flat anyway. If you are using a satin or shinier, a high holdout primer will give you a much more uniform finish than two coats of paint. Part of the problem some people have with eggshell touch up is caused by a poor holdout of the primer.


I agree with paints that have a higher sheen and especially eggshell touch up can be a nightmare. New texture that is not knocked down I think needs primer most of the time but knockdown seems to not be as absorbent as orangepeel and has less of a chance of flashing.

Not sure about PVA but seems to have a higher sheen then a regular flat primer but at any rate if you can do 1 coat primer and 1 coat paint it might be good to use primer for it's lower cost and I have had to do 3 coats of paint due to flashing when a first coat of prime would have saved the day.

I would like to think PVA soaks in to the texture better then primer but to me it seems to lay on the top or at least does not penetrate any better then a regular primer or a high quality paint.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Clearlycut said:


> 123 is a great primer and there is applications where primer is the main ingredient.
> But for drywall. Im not thinking it matters too much anymore.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using PaintTalk.com mobile app


Every touch up a wall that hasn't been primed? It'll flash. Every see the finish on un primed drywall? Looks like balls (a lot of times you can still see the mud lines).

Priming is THE MOST important coat you can apply. Screw up the primer and every other coating you apply will look just as bad.


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## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> Every touch up a wall that hasn't been primed? It'll flash. Every see the finish on un primed drywall? Looks like balls (a lot of times you can still see the mud lines).
> 
> Priming is THE MOST important coat you can apply. Screw up the primer and every other coating you apply will look just as bad.


What you must be refering to is a level 4


Ive tested it. On miles of level 4. Its just more work. Flat ,egg, whatever sheen.
A true level 5 shouldnt have mudlines to begin with or tape joints or anything for that matter. None, just bare flawless topping. Primer barley fixes jointbanding or photographing. It just seals in the crappy finish to begin with.Surface irregularities of that degree dont get solved by primer on rock and mud. Unless its perfect level 5, and when it is any finish will be uniform. 

This is specifically only talking about drywall primers in that application.
Im not excluding "primer" its a MUST have crucial part of MOST preperation.

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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Sorry double post


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

all things considered, even though 123 may be a bit of an overkill on drywall, it is at a good price point so it may be the best option.


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## BuckeyePainter (Feb 14, 2014)

I use Zinser 123 anytime I have to prime new drywall. It's a decent price.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Pretty much agree. PVA and other cheap drywall primers serve very little purpose. It's often said that they "equalize porosity" of the wallboard. That's true, the whole wall is left porous as a sponge ready to suck the life out of your first top coat.
> 
> Good sealing primers like 123 or Gardz are a different story. If I'm going to bother to prime new drywall at all, it's going to be with one of those two or something comparable.


:yes::thumbup:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Bulls eye is no bull!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

No Bullseye sounds better.


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## STAR (Nov 26, 2010)

Zinsser Bullseye 123 or Aqualock are my go to drywall primers.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've liked the Bullseye stuff in the past and will probably be my recommendation to people (even over Ben Moore's primers).

However, I talked to my BM rep specifically because I know so many people have this same problem- for premium coating like Regal Select he said screw drywall primer, do 2 (or preferably 3) coats of Regal Select and no primer. We're all aware the "paint and primer in one" is largely a marketing ploy, but he does seem to think it's got enough of the right properties to manage it. I'd imagine it'd be fine on a Level 5 even with 2 coats... Level 4 is always gonna be rough with how small DFT modern coatings have.

I'm curious if any of you have actually tried that with a premium quality paint. Obviously it's not gonna be great if you try to just slap on 2 coats of ProMar 200.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It's interesting that your BM rep would tell you that, but thinking that it'll work vs. telling you that other contractors are applying 2 coats of Regal Select over fresh drywall with good results are two totally different things. 

Plus if you end up needing 3 coats it means that your 3rd coat is pretty damn expensive compared to using primer for your first coat.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Not just that, but I find that the Regal and the Aura lines both are not very capable of self priming a bunch of patches I do on repaints. So, how the heck can it be any good at using on raw drywall? It's a horrible idea.


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## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

Aura works wonders for me over new patches. Aura is bomb!
Everybody is different i guess.

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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

123 for new bare rock and I use pva for spot priming patches. :yes:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PNW Painter said:


> It's interesting that your BM rep would tell you that, but thinking that it'll work vs. telling you that other contractors are applying 2 coats of Regal Select over fresh drywall with good results are two totally different things.
> 
> Plus if you end up needing 3 coats it means that your 3rd coat is pretty damn expensive compared to using primer for your first coat.


I may have a done a less than optimal job of stating that. By "seemed to think" I didn't mean "wasn't sure," I just meant he's of the opinion that it works, presumably from experience (he was an actual paint salesman before becoming a rep). I haven't had any trouble from Regal/Aura self-priming before, but it's going to largely depend on the substrate. Level 5 vs. level 4 again


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Does anyone have any suggestions concerning pH compatabily with a substrate and subsequent ecapsulate, or is the whole discussion about primer/finish paints more about their body, leveling, hide, and so forth? Because if that's the case, just about every modern paint will look good over a bare substrate if allowed enough coats.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

It can certainly cause troubles at extremely high or low pH, as per: http://www.paintinfo.com/cn/cns-002.shtml

With drywall/joint compound, though, I wouldn't think it'd be a major factor for modern water-based paints.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> It can certainly cause troubles at extremely high or low pH, as per: http://www.paintinfo.com/cn/cns-002.shtml
> 
> With drywall/joint compound, though, I wouldn't think it'd be a major factor for modern water-based paints.


Thanks for the link. However, the article suggested a "water mixed texture" that had a pH level of 13. I don't see where the properties of a joint compound would be much different than that of a texture compound.

The article was basically addressing the stains rather than what affect an inappropriate primer/finish would have on an a substrate with a high pH level, in terms of adhesion.

Question is, was the elevated ph level in the texture due to alkaline drawn to the surface from the concrete substrate, via excessive moisture in the texture, or was that particular texture product high pH?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Thanks for the link. However, the article suggested a "water mixed texture" that had a pH level of 13. I don't see where the properties of a joint compound would be much different than that of a texture compound.
> 
> The article was basically addressing the stains rather than what affect an inappropriate primer/finish would have on an a substrate with a high pH level, in terms of adhesion.
> 
> Question is, was the elevated ph level in the texture due to alkaline drawn to the surface from the concrete substrate, via excessive moisture in the texture, or was that particular texture product high pH?


Good Lord I hope that was a rhetorical question cuz I'm absolutely certain I haven't a clue.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

As per the MSDS for a branded joint compound, the pH should be between 7 and 9.5, which shouldn't have a substantial effect on adhesion (citation: http://www.mcoe.us/view/1794.pdf ) in modern waterborne paints.

So the answer is, in theory, no, typical joint compounds shouldn't negatively effect adhesion due to pH. Adhesion is much more likely going to be a problem if the dust isn't properly cleaned up, but that's a substrate rather than paint issue.

In my opinion the main problem with modern waterborn paints on drywall is the DFT being so low that it doesn't level and fil, given that it's maybe 10% of the thickness of old oil paints (which would seem to answer your original question).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> As per the MSDS for a branded joint compound, the pH should be between 7 and 9.5, which shouldn't have a substantial effect on adhesion (citation: http://www.mcoe.us/view/1794.pdf ) in modern waterborne paints.
> 
> So the answer is, in theory, no, typical joint compounds shouldn't negatively effect adhesion due to pH. Adhesion is much more likely going to be a problem if the dust isn't properly cleaned up, but that's a substrate rather than paint issue.
> 
> In my opinion the main problem with modern waterborn paints on drywall is the DFT being so low that it doesn't level and fil, given that it's maybe 10% of the thickness of old oil paints (which would seem to answer your original question).


I also posted in this thread, a link to the USG joint compound MSDS showing a pH level of 7.5-9. And I also believe that the amount of water you add to joint compound, can draw high pH properties to the surface, as is the case with concrete.

In terms of best painting practices, I don't believe the hybrid primer/finish paints provide the same performance properties, specifically bonding, that a primer designed for a particular substrates or a multiple of substrates can provide.

In my opinion, Primer/Finishes are production products that will perform well, just not as well as specifically designed products will. And as far as solid content and film build, that has nothing to do with bonding as much as the resin formulation does. Even though the resins may add nothing to body or hide.

I remember alcohol based wash primers being the absolute best bonding primers available for galvanized sheet metal, even though they were only speced to be applied at 1 or 2 mils.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think we're getting mixed up between two things.

pH *could* impact bonding theoretically. I've not (and my BM rep has not) run into issues with the so-called "Paint and Primer" paints having adhesion issues when properly applied to joint compound, though. From a longevity standpoint in my opinion I don't think you're going to have an issue with adhesion from them. I'd be much more worried about the other issues I mentioned.

DFT shouldn't impact bonding (unless improperly applied, of course). I don't mean to imply that thinner DFT necessarily means less adhesion. I was purely bringing it up because leveling/hide had also been brought up by you and others.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I have seen Behrs paint that didn't stick to drywall. Properly cleaned, two coats of satin, blotchy as hell, practically fell off the wall a year after it was applied. How they can sell a self stripping paint is beyond me. You have to try real hard to make a paint not stick to drywall.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Behrs





Proalliance coatings said:


> paint


Well there's your problem, as Jamie from Mythbusters would say.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Well there's your problem, as Jamie from Mythbusters would say.


Yup. here's yer sign.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Woops, I'm being a paint snob again


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Woops, I'm being a paint snob again


I'm a total paint snob. Although Behr isn't the worst stuff I've used or come across, it's not a brand I would recommend, or voluntary use.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I should mention, everything I say here should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm contractually obligated to be disparaging about my competition at every possibility. :shifty: (jesting)

...I should really be more serious about this.

Honestly, there's products from *almost* every paint manufacturer that I think are good products for certain applications.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I have seen Behrs paint that didn't stick to drywall. Properly cleaned, two coats of satin, blotchy as hell, practically fell off the wall a year after it was applied. How they can sell a self stripping paint is beyond me. You have to try real hard to make a paint not stick to drywall.


Careful my friend there are Behr Lovers here who may take offense. To be clear I'm not one of them.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Woodford said:


> I should mention, everything I say here should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm contractually obligated to be disparaging about my competition at every possibility. :shifty: (jesting)
> 
> ...I should really be more serious about this.
> 
> Honestly, there's products from *almost* every paint manufacturer that I think are good products for certain applications.


Doorstops? Counterweights? Step stool?


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Our go to primer is Benjamin Moore Super Spec primer sealer. This is always used over new drywall and texture before our top coats. We even go over all of casing and trim even if it is MDF, with the Super Spec. It holds well and allows excellent adhesion with the top coats


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Still a pva guy. Just how I've always done it (not saying it's right). At $8 a gallon it does what I want it too. pva followed by 2 coats has yet to fail me.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

MIZZOU said:


> Still a pva guy. Just how I've always done it (not saying it's right). At $8 a gallon it does what I want it too. pva followed by 2 coats has yet to fail me.


With PVA (poly vinyl acetate ) having an acidic in its name, just gives me the sense I'm using the right material over a higher pH substrate.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> With PVA (poly vinyl acetate ) having an acidic in its name, just gives me the sense I'm using the right material over a higher pH substrate.


Except for the part about alkaline conditions causing PVA to break down into alcohol and vinegar....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I never heard of that. Has that been remedied, or is it still a problem and why would it be specked in a new drywall painting system?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

CApainter said:


> With PVA (poly vinyl acetate ) having an acidic in its name, just gives me the sense I'm using the right material over a higher pH substrate.


I don't think the "PVA" primers we are currently using are even related to what used to be referred to as PVA. I believe the name has been brought along to associate a particular primer with new construction drywall only primer. All are waterbase and are meant for drywall priming before texture. Painters over-use "PVA" primer for overall priming. Also, I believe most painters are under the assumption that PVA stands for poly-vinyl-acrylic. Makes more sense in a painting sense, being not fully acrylic.

If it is high ph you are worried about, there are specialty masonry primers that work.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Mike, I think the PVA primers are Polyvinyl Acetate, not Polyvinyl Acrylic, and that's the issue. IIRC, the PVA is a less expensive resin than acrylics.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I don't think the "PVA" primers we are currently using are even related to what used to be referred to as PVA. I believe the name has been brought along to associate a particular primer with new construction drywall only primer. All are waterbase and are meant for drywall priming before texture. Painters over-use "PVA" primer for overall priming. Also, I believe most painters are under the assumption that PVA stands for poly-vinyl-acrylic. Makes more sense in a painting sense, being not fully acrylic.
> 
> If it is high ph you are worried about, there are specialty masonry primers that work.


I wasn't aware that PVA was recommended to be used prior to texturing. That would seem to eliminate the pH compatibility issues. I am convinced however, that primers designed for bonding, like ZInsser 123, are more compatible barriers between joint compounds and finish coats, than a hybrid primer/finish would be.


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## rimce44 (Oct 26, 2011)

I would not agree that Zinsser 123 is cheap...
I think it'sway better simply thin the emulsion, which will let the paint soak into the surface before applying 2 final coats.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Gough said:


> Mike, I think the PVA primers are Polyvinyl Acetate, not Polyvinyl Acrylic, and that's the issue. IIRC, the PVA is a less expensive resin than acrylics.


I know that!! I did 20 years in stores, I was just saying that is what most painters think it means.

I did a stint with SW marketing dept and spoke to many chemists who said PVA primers today do not use the PVA resins they once did. But it is semantics, there just drywall primers right.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I know that!! I did 20 years in stores, I was just saying that is what most painters think it means.
> 
> I did a stint with SW marketing dept and spoke to many chemists who said PVA primers today do not use the PVA resins they once did. But it is semantics, there just drywall primers right.


Sorry, my bad.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> Doorstops? Counterweights? Step stool?


Yup, my big box competitor up the street makes some damn good door stop paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Yup, my big box competitor up the street makes some damn good door stop paint.


"Behr's doorstops"?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Hey, I didn't say it.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

What do you guys think of the Aqualock over drywall?

I see BM is making a primer in their Advance line of products, has anyone used it?


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

Here is my take on this subject. When developing a primer for the contractor market I have to consider....

Price, purpose, performance. There are a million ways to make a primer for drywall. For smooth wall applications it is important to run these products with as little sheen as possible, balanced by a decent sand time. .. less than 4 hrs.
"enamel hold out" is easy to control by pigment to binder ratio and PVC/CPVC balance.

Flat primers go along way to reduce "flashing" on poorly done drywall jobs, especially in commercial cases where "orange peel" is the texture choice. Conventional PVA's and any primer that maintains a gloss on drying will have the tendency to flash.

My best primers do the job, are cost effective and are as universal as possible...and of course for you guys...affordable.

For those who try to just double coat finishes...gotta look at the cost.

When it comes to the "primer surfacers" ... that's a totally different area that I'd sure like to address sometime. I've spent way too much time trying to resolve the hidden adhesion problems associated with such products. They do more harm than good.

Sorry for rambling on guys. I eat, breath, sleep paint..... one sick puppy.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jazz_Painter said:


> What do you guys think of the Aqualock over drywall?
> 
> I see BM is making a primer in their Advance line of products, has anyone used it?


I have a few customers who really like the Advance primer (it's been around for a while). I usually recommend it for new wood priming before putting Advance on- so new trim, cabinets, doors. Helps get that perfect topcoat you want with the Advance. I've also been told it adheres over oil, but I haven't tested that/made sure it holds up, so take that with a grain of salt.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

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