# New construction painting sequence?



## beemerpaint

Hey guys. I was hoping that some of you would share your expertise with me on the topic of painting new construction. I have been strictly painting re-paints so this is new to me. This is what I have so far:

1. Spray primer walls and ceiling.
2. Spray color on ceiling.
3. Install baseboard and trim.
4. Caulk baseboard/trim.
5. Primer baseboard and trim.
6. Spray baseboard/trim.
7. Roller/brush walls.

What changes would you make and why? Thank you all for your advice.

Eric


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## vermontpainter

Eric

The first two steps are correct, make sure you are backrolling the sprayed finishes. We often prefer to get first coat wall colors on before the trim goes on. Definitely preprime and maybe first coat baseboard before it goes down. Casings we often leave raw wood since carpenters sand joints so heavily, then we do all the prep and finish on them after the carpentry and cut the final coat on walls in last....just a few ideas.


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## beemerpaint

Thanks Scott. That will help. Im bidding an addition built onto a home. Sheetrock is being done now, whats needed is complete interior and exterior of the two story addition. Wow, I really like that mountainside restoration job you guys did!!


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## vermontpainter

Thanks. That was a tough one...very little drywall and lots of maple!


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## Rich

I prime all trim before caulk/fill. Thought that was a standard thing, not sure how everyone does it. 

I'm also used to not having to wait for trim and usually spray prime it while doing the ceilings and walls-it's tough sometimes to schedule though and I adjust accordingly


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## cole191919

I would get the first coat on the walls first as well just because it is more efficient to only have to cut along the baseboards once as opposed to doing it twice. And priming the baseboards first would also save you some time I think. Put em up on some sawhorses and go to town on them. Caulk/fill after installing and put final coats on them. The more time you can save, the happier the GC would be I'm sure.


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## Wing 54

If you spray the ceilings first. Then what about using a shield along ceiling edges to be able to spray walls? I have one coming up and am just wondering.

Thanks in advance


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## bikerboy

We no longer do new construction because of the cuthroat nature of it. If you are doing Tract homes (not custom):
1. Trim must be installed first.
2. Spray and backroll flat on ceilings and walls, spray trim (but no rolling)
3. Next day caulk all trim, spray and roll semi in kitchen/baths, brush trim.
4. Move to next unit
5. Wait 30 days for check.


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## bikerboy

Caulk is not made to be applied to raw wood, trim has to be pre-primed or caulked after first coat.


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## Wing 54

This is just 1 home. No trim is installed.


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## DeanV

*new construction order*

1. After drywallers leave, prime and shoot ceilings 

Let trim carpenters do their thing and go somewhere else for a couple weeks.

2. Now that trim is installed, fill and sand all the nail holes.
3. Prime trim
4. Caulk and look over all nail holes, fix imperfections in trim.
5. Spray first finish coat.
6. Light up and fix any imperfection in trim, caulk, nail holes, etc
7. Spray 2nd coat on trim.
8. Paint walls 2 coats


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## tonyk

DeanV You got an A+ in my book. This is exactly how I do it on all new cons. with pre primed millwork. The coat of primer after nail fill and caulk highlites all blemishes. On an occasional tight $ job we have used tinted primer on the walls and just recut with primer in after finishing the trim and ceilings. Then applied one finish coat to the walls. This will flash if the walls dont have a texture like k-down so be carfull with this method. The flashing is not very noticable with the texture , ligth colors or low sheens. Ways to save $ and still get a comparable product are important in a slow market. LOL


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## paintslinger

I've a trac home painter for 10 years this is the most efficient way to do colored walls

1. caulk and putty holes
2. tape hinges and any thresholds
3. prime walls in wall color
4. shoot ceilings and prime jams and doors in same paint if white not too heavy or u cannot sand the same day
5. take lunch smoke break
6. cut in ceilings 
7. sand trim
8. spray and backroll finish coat
9. spray door jams just the pocket as to not get a lot of overspray on walls and spray doors at same time leave the doors hanging do not take down
10. brush door casing and base
11. pull tape and put 1st coat on baseboard next coat on pre carpet

Two bad ass painters and a helper in one day been doing for years at 1.45 a ft if you spend more than 1200 in labor for the start u arent going to make much money


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## Mantis

beemerpaint said:


> Hey guys. I was hoping that some of you would share your expertise with me on the topic of painting new construction. I have been strictly painting re-paints so this is new to me. This is what I have so far:
> 
> 1. Spray primer walls and ceiling.
> 2. Spray color on ceiling.
> 3. Install baseboard and trim.
> 4. Caulk baseboard/trim.
> 5. Primer baseboard and trim.
> 6. Spray baseboard/trim.
> 7. Roller/brush walls.
> 
> What changes would you make and why? Thank you all for your advice.
> 
> Eric


Seems like everyone has put in their 2 cents on this one, so I might as well grab my pennies too! Here's how we do it:

After the drywallers are finished;
1. Broom drywall/corners and spray primer walls and ceiling.
2. Sand walls/ceiling and spray first coat of color on walls.
3. Spray first coat of ceiling white/color.

After the trimmers are finished;
4. Fill trim
5. Prime trim
6. Sand trim and check for imperfections.
7. Spray first finish coat.
8. Scuff and light trim, check for imperfections.
9. Caulk baseboard/trim.
10. Spray finish coat on trim.
11. Finish ceilings
12. Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls

We find that caulking the trim after the first coat of sanded finish is applied is easier on the fingers.


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## Thomas Painting

DeanV said:


> 1. After drywallers leave, prime and shoot ceilings
> 
> Let trim carpenters do their thing and go somewhere else for a couple weeks.
> 
> 2. Now that trim is installed, fill and sand all the nail holes.
> 3. Prime trim
> 4. Caulk and look over all nail holes, fix imperfections in trim.
> 5. Spray first finish coat.
> 6. Light up and fix any imperfection in trim, caulk, nail holes, etc
> 7. Spray 2nd coat on trim.
> 8. Paint walls 2 coats


I would not do #2 until #3 is done. 

Prime the trim ... fill the nail holes with lightweight spackle (leaving the spackle above the hole) sand the trim, vacuum, caulk and paint trim.


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## vermontpainter

Thomas Painting said:


> I would not do #2 until #3 is done. quote]
> 
> 
> I would. It eliminates flashing of the holes to bury them under primer.


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## Thomas Painting

vermontpainter said:


> Thomas Painting said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would not do #2 until #3 is done. quote]
> 
> 
> I would. It eliminates flashing of the holes to bury them under primer.
> 
> 
> 
> It also makes you sand twice ... plus with 2 coats of finish..... nail holes shouldn't flash.
Click to expand...


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## vermontpainter

Thomas Painting said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also makes you sand twice ... plus with 2 coats of finish..... nail holes shouldn't flash.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes they do. Particularly with deep base Satin Impervo oil, which we do alot of. The filler has a different rate of absorption than the surrounding substrate, so we prefer sealing. Whatever works....
Click to expand...


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## bikerboy

I don't get it? Sounds like you guys are doing new custom work, not the tract style homes where price is king. Who would use the sveral coats of finish and BM satin impervo on a low paying cuthroat tract home? The only primer on tract homes here is the first coat of flat white you paint the walls with. (in fact it is the only primer on anything, walls, trim, doors)


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## vermontpainter

BB

Definitely...on the quick and dirty jobs, do whatever is efficient and gets an acceptable result. On the custom stuff, make the extra steps for perfection. We dont even attempt the "price is king" market. Thats not a fun way to have to work all the time.


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## bikerboy

Now I get it. Just the wrong type of new home painting. We haven't done new construction in years, because of the lack of respect and more importantly lack of pay that the market offers. (although I recently was offered this type of work from somebody who builds 6-10 houses a year.)


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## tsunamicontract

Thomas Painting said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also makes you sand twice ... plus with 2 coats of finish..... nail holes shouldn't flash.
> 
> 
> 
> ideally would you not prime, fill, sand prime, 2 finish?
Click to expand...


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> Thomas Painting said:
> 
> 
> 
> ideally would you not prime, fill, sand prime, 2 finish?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, on our new construction stuff we fill, sand, prime, sand, 1st coat, sand, second coat.
Click to expand...


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## tsunamicontract

Hmm, I would have thought you would have pre primed then the rest of your steps. Does the pre prime just add to much to the price tag? Or just not benefit the application enough to justify it?


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> Hmm, I would have thought you would have pre primed then the rest of your steps. Does the pre prime just add to much to the price tag? Or just not benefit the application enough to justify it?


With the elaborate trim schemes we deal with, the carpenters do alot of installation when they install, so we would lose primer in the joints and all around if we preprimed...we would end up repriming. So it goes up raw, then we fill (twice), prime, etc. etc.

Keep in mind we work in an unusually high quality expectation environment. If you price development houses and try to do trim this way it will not work. They will love your quality, hate the amount of time it takes you, and you will lose money. Everyone should do whats appropriate for the situation.


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## Mantis

If price is the biggest factor in your "how to finish" equation then you can certainly omit and rearrange the finishing steps. For example, we just finished a student housing project near Michigan State. 4 1200sq foot units we had to be in and out of in 5 days. 

Prime and first coat your walls and ceilings.
Trim out units.
Fill holes and spot prime everything that's raw. In this case 1 can of Pro-Block per unit since the only thing raw was the tops of doors.
First finish coat on trim
Sand / Check for imperfections
Finish coat on trim
Finish walls

This is very fast and very cheap method of finishing and I hope nobody I know ever has to live there, but it may be the process you're looking for.


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## Bender

Yup. They eat their own


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## Mantis

vermontpainter said:


> _It also makes you sand twice ... plus with 2 coats of finish..... nail holes shouldn't flash._





Thomas Painting said:


> Sometimes they do. Particularly with deep base Satin Impervo oil, which we do alot of. The filler has a different rate of absorption than the surrounding substrate, so we prefer sealing. Whatever works....


This is exactly how it should be done imo. Especially if you're filling larger holes with durabond/mud then can tend to flash. Any patch/hole we fix will generally get a nice coat of primer before finish. If we see a spot that needs fixing during the last coat of semi, we carry a can of pro-block around to spot it.

The extra step of sanding 'twice' really doesnt take that long. If you did a good job sanding the primer, the sanding stage between the coats of finish is more of a quick scuff than an actual sand.


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## vermontpainter

Mantis;36391The extra step of sanding 'twice' really doesnt take that long. If you did a good job sanding the primer said:


> Thats right. The in between coat sanding is a pretty quick wipe to smooth the raised grain. Thats nothing compared to the scrubbing we do on nail hole filling.


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## tsunamicontract

vermontpainter said:


> With the elaborate trim schemes we deal with, the carpenters do alot of installation when they install, so we would lose primer in the joints and all around if we preprimed...we would end up repriming. So it goes up raw, then we fill (twice), prime, etc. etc.
> 
> Keep in mind we work in an unusually high quality expectation environment. If you price development houses and try to do trim this way it will not work. They will love your quality, hate the amount of time it takes you, and you will lose money. *Everyone should do whats appropriate for the situation.*


For some reason it did not cross my mind that even if you primed that pile of wood that was to be installed, after its all cut, you would have to do it again. Its important for everyone to keep in mind that things need to be looked at situationally as opposed to blanket concepts that work in all situations no matter what.

Scott, do you hand sand or random orbital? Hook up to a vacuum to control dust at all?


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> For some reason it did not cross my mind that even if you primed that pile of wood that was to be installed, after its all cut, you would have to do it again. Its important for everyone to keep in mind that things need to be looked at situationally as opposed to blanket concepts that work in all situations no matter what.
> 
> Scott, do you hand sand or random orbital? Hook up to a vacuum to control dust at all?


99% by hand.


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## tsunamicontract

(let me preface this with I have never done new construction, a couple remodels which is similar but usually inhabited)

Why the sand after spraying the primer? Assuming you backroll, which realistically you should, should everything not already be pretty even and primer obviously does not need extra "tooth" for the paint to hold?


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> (let me preface this with I have never done new construction, a couple remodels which is similar but usually inhabited)
> Why the sand after spraying the primer? Assuming you backroll, which realistically you should, should everything not already be pretty even and primer obviously does not need extra "tooth" for the paint to hold?


 
We dont spray primer. Even if we did, there would be enough raised grain to necessitate sanding to get a smooth finish. Its a fine sand to smooth it, not to give it tooth. Its got too much tooth to begin with.


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## tsunamicontract

Sorry for the confusing Scott, I meant on drywall. Wood I understand.


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## vermontpainter

tsunamicontract said:


> Sorry for the confusing Scott, I meant on drywall. Wood I understand.


That we do spray, and as a matter of course, pole sand every time to smooth out the dust you find lurking around.


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## tsunamicontract

That was my hunch. Is this for level 5 DW finishes only? I assume if someone were having texture sprayed on this would be pointless? Not a lot of non-textured walls here. Are they more popular out east or in higher end homes? I have one guy who is big on flat walls with flat paint, though. Just looked at a really custom relatively new (8 years) prairie/ranch style home with real, hand applied plaster. That was neat. But other than that, round these parts the DW do the texturing and it gets painted after that.


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## RCP

Scott, are you saying you do not spray primer on wood?


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## vermontpainter

RC Painting said:


> Scott, are you saying you do not spray primer on wood?


Correct


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## RCP

Maybe I missed something in this thread. Why do you not spray primer on wood?


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## vermontpainter

RC Painting said:


> Maybe I missed something in this thread. Why do you not spray primer on wood?


Its a function of the builder clientele that we work for. The builders, and their clients - the homeowners, prefer the art of the brush. If we were doing development work we could do that kind of production work, but in our particular market, its not what they are interested in. They want craftsmanship, and thats what we do. 

_Disclaimer: I know that there are guys here (NEPS) that can create very similar craftsmanship by spraying trim, and that it is much more efficient and cost effective. This is in no way meant to dis the art of spraying. We just give the people what they want._


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## RCP

I can understand that, just couldn't figure out why you would spray primer on drywall and brush it on the wood, especially if it is all up. So you can see a difference on spray primer/brush finish as opposed to brush primer/brush finish? Sounds like the trim is not always up?


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## vermontpainter

RC Painting said:


> I can understand that, just couldn't figure out why you would spray primer on drywall and brush it on the wood, especially if it is all up. So you can see a difference on spray primer/brush finish as opposed to brush primer/brush finish? Sounds like the trim is not always up?


Confidentially, its a snob factor thing...


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## DeanV

That would be cool if brushed out trim on high end work became the next big thing. I get the best results spraying trim for new work, but I could definitely do the brush by hand thing too.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> That would be cool if brushed out trim on high end work became the next big thing. I get the best results spraying trim for new work, but I could definitely do the brush by hand thing too.


I wouldnt base anything on the fickle market that I work in...


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## RCP

We get good results spraying as well.


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## Mantis

Most of the "high end" work we do is almost always pigmented precat lacquer. I dont get too many brush jobs, though i think i still would spray the primer coat.


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## vermontpainter

RC Painting said:


> We get good results spraying as well.


RC

That looks great, and I bet it feels good to the touch too. There are different ways to get to the same place quality-wise. I will add you to my disclaimer.


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## Mantis

RC Painting said:


> We get good results spraying as well.


Clearly photoshopped.

Kidding! looks great


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## tsunamicontract

RC Painting said:


> We get good results spraying as well.


Dam RC, must have had the flash on. Thats amazing. What did you coat that with and what did you spray it with?


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## RCP

Thanks, all our trim is sprayed with Sherwin Williams Southwest Builders Sologloss Latex with a440i and a 412 tip. The walls are sprayed with the Speeflo and 619 tip, two coats primer, two coats finish. Trim is sprayed, masked off and then walls are sprayed. Average home is 30 man hours.


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## tsunamicontract

RC Painting said:


> Average home is 30 man hours.



time for me to rethink how I paint?


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## Mantis

tsunamicontract said:


> time for me to rethink how I paint?


Seriously. My man should open a School. RC's Paint Workshop taking enrollments now! Send your enrollment fees to RC at [email protected] :whistling2::icon_cheesygrin:


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## tsunamicontract

30 hours, colors, and looking like that? yah sign me up. Is that maybe 1 masker one sprayer and two days?


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## RCP

The man hours is something you don't see mentioned when people freak at new construction prices. With the right GCs and supers you can knock out 2 in a week or so and still do a quality job. It takes the proper materials, equipment, training and procedures. 
We could never do this in an occupied home or do the prep required to get the results needed in an older home.


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## Mantis

RC Painting said:


> The man hours is something you don't see mentioned when people freak at new construction prices. With the right GCs and supers you can knock out 2 in a week or so and still do a quality job. It takes the proper materials, equipment, training and procedures.
> We could never do this in an occupied home or do the prep required to get the results needed in an older home.


30 man hours just seems really low. Even on the cheapest 800sq ft condos with pre-primed time and rubber base that we've done, we generally spend at least double that amount of time. 30 man hours is what we have just in prep time.


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## DeanV

The quickest homes I have done in 45 hours by myself for new construction (1000 sq. ft.). These are prefinished vinyl windows, preprimed mdf trim, two coats on trim, no repriming, shoot primer on stomped ceilings only, cut and roll one coat of tinted primer and one coat of flat paint on walls. These are not what I would call high quality work, but not done with a complete blow and go mentaility either.


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## PVPainter

30 man hours, what kind of sq ft are we talking here???


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## RCP

1400 to 1800 floor.
Try to go in before trim to vacuum before base.
Day 1 12 man hours
Caulk and putty and thoroughly vacuum. 
Put hinge mags on doors. Mask windows and garage floor.
Day 2 3 man hours
Spray primer two coats.
Day 3 5 man hours
Second Prep, sand , patch, check all areas.
Spray two coats finish on all trim.
Day 4 10 man hours
Pop pin and move doors to garage and mask trim and base.
Spray walls 2 coats
Take paper down, doors back on.
Done
We usually two houses at a time.
Most homes have vinyl windows and simple base. We do closet shelves also.


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## Mantis

RC Painting said:


> 1400 to 1800 floor.
> Try to go in before trim to vacuum before base.
> Day 1 12 man hours
> *Caulk and putty* and thoroughly vacuum.
> Put hinge mags on doors. Mask windows and garage floor.
> Day 2 3 man hours
> Spray primer two coats.
> Day 3 5 man hours
> Second Prep, sand , patch, check all areas.
> Spray two coats finish on all trim.
> Day 4 10 man hours
> Pop pin and move doors to garage and mask trim and base.
> Spray walls 2 coats
> Take paper down, doors back on.
> Done
> We usually two houses at a time.
> Most homes have vinyl windows and simple base. We do closet shelves also.


There it is! You're flushing off your nail holes with a lightweight filler or something right? No backsanding before primer? And why 2 coats of primer?


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## Bender

RC, how do you avoid flashing on the walls around the door frames? I see that quite often. I assume the walls are raw?


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## vermontpainter

Bender said:


> RC, how do you avoid flashing on the walls around the door frames? I see that quite often. I assume the walls are raw?


Not to speak for RC, but a little scuff sand around the edges dulls that sheen right out and with the right build up over it, no problem.


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## bikerboy

RC Painting said:


> Thanks, all our trim is sprayed with Sherwin Williams Southwest Builders Sologloss Latex with a440i and a 412 tip. The walls are sprayed with the Speeflo and 619 tip, two coats primer, two coats finish. Trim is sprayed, masked off and then walls are sprayed. Average home is 30 man hours.


Do you have a problem with the paint pulling off with the tape?
If not, how long does it dry before you tape it and what brand/type tape do you use?


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## RCP

Mantis said:


> There it is! You're flushing off your nail holes with a lightweight filler or something right? No backsanding before primer? And why 2 coats of primer?


Used Crawfords putty for 20 years. I do sand before prime. Two coats of primer seems to make finish smoother to the touch. It has to look and feel good!


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## RCP

Bender said:


> RC, how do you avoid flashing on the walls around the door frames? I see that quite often. I assume the walls are raw?


I use semigloss or eggshell, never have a problem with products I use.


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> Not to speak for RC, but a little scuff sand around the edges dulls that sheen right out and with the right build up over it, no problem.


Thanks Scott, seems like I have derailed this thread! Did not really think our methods were that unusual!


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## RCP

bikerboy said:


> Do you have a problem with the paint pulling off with the tape?
> If not, how long does it dry before you tape it and what brand/type tape do you use?


Rarely, my guys are right behind me pulling it. I use SW tape. I run the blue tape tight on trim and then go over that with white tape/paper in a masker.
I can hear you now "that's a lot of paper and tape". it is 3 rolls of paper and 6 rolls of tape. OK, I am not green! The result is crisp lines and less time. Yes, I can cut a straight line and still use a brush when needed!


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## vermontpainter

RC Painting said:


> Thanks Scott, seems like I have derailed this thread! Did not really think our methods were that unusual!


I think its more a function that you have a nice looking product that you achieved efficiently. You are not one who blows smoke around here, so people are interested. Myself included.


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## tsunamicontract

vermontpainter said:


> I think its more a function that you have a nice looking product that you achieved efficiently. You are not one who blows smoke around here, so people are interested. Myself included.


:yes::yes:


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## RCP

Thanks, starting to feel like I was being "called out":2guns:


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## bikerboy

RC Painting said:


> Rarely, my guys are right behind me pulling it. I use SW tape. I run the blue tape tight on trim and then go over that with white tape/paper in a masker.
> I can hear you now "that's a lot of paper and tape". it is 3 rolls of paper and 6 rolls of tape. OK, I am not green! The result is crisp lines and less time. Yes, I can cut a straight line and still use a brush when needed!


I don't care about being green, but I do care about making green. If you are turning out that kind of quality in the time mentioned, the expense of tape is cheaper than the labor.
I don't understand what SW tape is. Do you mean Sherwin Williams? Around here they don't have their own brand, they do have both 3M and Shuretape brands. I can cut lines too, but time is money and there is no place in business for an inflated ego.
When you go back over with the masking tape, do you go tight up to the corner/line or just cover the blue in a reasonable manner?


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## RCP

bikerboy said:


> I don't care about being green, but I do care about making green. If you are turning out that kind of quality in the time mentioned, the expense of tape is cheaper than the labor.
> I don't understand what SW tape is. Do you mean Sherwin Williams? Around here they don't have their own brand, they do have both 3M and Shuretape brands. I can cut lines too, but time is money and there is no place in business for an inflated ego.
> When you go back over with the masking tape, do you go tight up to the corner/line or just cover the blue in a reasonable manner?


Yes! you get it! 
The tape is from Sherwin Williams, I think the blue is 3M, the white has a SW label, I buy it by the case, have to look closer next time if you need more info.
I use the blue with the masker below. Once you get the hang of it you can run a tight perfect line all around a door or a full wall of base without a break. I can then use a masker with paper and white tape to run over the blue and do not have to be so accurate, just keep it off the trim. I use the 12" paper on the jambs and 6" paper on the floor.


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## bikerboy

Thanks for sharing the info. Don't get many jobs where that is feasible, but it's good to know.


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## RCP

Because you don't spray or do new construction?


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## bikerboy

I don't do new construction. Did years back, but tired of the nature of it in this area. Do work with a couple of builders who do remodels and additions where this would work, but it would be a couple of times a year at best. Am marketing to some higher end guys where it would be different, but no luck yet. (at least we are busy)

Spraying, do it when I can, but the bulk of our work is residential repaints.


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## DeanV

RC, are you shielding the ceiling lines or masking?


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## RCP

When I do a three tone I shoot the ceilings,then trim, then the walls. Then go back and run tape/plastic with the masker to cover the walls. Then go back and spray ceiling where I came up doing wall. I found spraying the bulk of the ceiling first is easier, don't have to fight the plastic. I know it may seem like more work, but it works for me.


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## painttofish

RCP said:


> When I do a three tone I shoot the ceilings,then trim, then the walls. Then go back and run tape/plastic with the masker to cover the walls. Then go back and spray ceiling where I came up doing wall. I found spraying the bulk of the ceiling first is easier, don't have to fight the plastic. I know it may seem like more work, but it works for me.


Are you back rolling the walls/ceiling? On the 2nd coat of ceiling are you coating the whole ceiling or just the edges where the wall color came up?


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## ewingpainting.net

RCP said:


> When I do a three tone I shoot the ceilings,then trim, then the walls. Then go back and run tape/plastic with the masker to cover the walls. Then go back and spray ceiling where I came up doing wall. I found spraying the bulk of the ceiling first is easier, don't have to fight the plastic. I know it may seem like more work, but it works for me.




Ya, this seems a bit much. I did a ton of new res and knowing you have little cost to play with, that seems it will take its toll in time. With new res there is 99.99% chance you will have to reroll the house due to other trades damaging and the drywall prepaints. We tried a few methods out, one being the mask and spray as you did. We found that with the cost of the materials and labor of masking, it was cheaper to just cut and roll. What we found best was
1. Spray 1st coat on walls
2. Spray lids
3. Prep, prime and enamel doors.
4. After all trades go through cut and roll walls. We found this system to work the best and was less cost. It also reduced t.u. problems (rolled vs spray) and less times we had to go back.


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## RCP

painttofish said:


> Are you back rolling the walls/ceiling? On the 2nd coat of ceiling are you coating the whole ceiling or just the edges where the wall color came up?


I don't backroll, with 2 coats primer, 2 coats finish with good paint it does the trick. 
It is actually a third coat when I "touch up" ceiling only where wall color comes up.
When I spray I do one coat up and down, one coat side to side.


----------



## RCP

ewingpainting.net said:


> Ya, this seems a bit much. I did a ton of new res and knowing you have little cost to play with, that seems it will take its toll in time. With new res there is 99.99% chance you will have to reroll the house due to other trades damaging and the drywall prepaints. We tried a few methods out, one being the mask and spray as you did. We found that with the cost of the materials and labor of masking, it was cheaper to just cut and roll. What we found best was
> 1. Spray 1st coat on walls
> 2. Spray lids
> 3. Prep, prime and enamel doors.
> 4. After all trades go through cut and roll walls. We found this system to work the best and was less cost. It also reduced t.u. problems (rolled vs spray) and less times we had to go back.


I see your point. What if there is minimal damage? Like bedrooms?
I can mask and spray faster than rolling.
I don't do NC as in the blow and go tract type homes where trades are a nightmare. I work for a few GCs that have excellent project managers who give me the house and then when I am done they do a good job of protecting my work. I have no problems backcharging subs who damage my work. (beyond the norm)
I am not saying my way is for everyone, it is a system I have developed over the past 25 years and has served me well.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

RCP said:


> I see your point. What if there is minimal damage? Like bedrooms?
> I can mask and spray faster than rolling.
> I don't do NC as in the blow and go tract type homes where trades are a nightmare. I work for a few GCs that have excellent project managers who give me the house and then when I am done they do a good job of protecting my work. I have no problems backcharging subs who damage my work. (beyond the norm)
> I am not saying my way is for everyone, it is a system I have developed over the past 25 years and has served me well.


I wasn't at all trying to tell you your way is wrong. I had the opportunity to try other ways. I am just telling you what I found. I know and you should know if your dealing with colors tu can be a nightmare. And it just takes that one to set you back. Not only effecting your pocket book but also damaging your relationship with that gc. If your way works for you then great keep on keeping on.


----------



## spayer48

hey vermont painter,
I read you do not spray your trim. 
I also paint custom homes.
I use B.M or S.W semi-gloss and xim.

What brush do you use. I'm always looking for the smoothest finish.
any products besides xim ?


----------



## dhp

hey guys...new to forum...how we do it...(and i would like feedback on this  )
3 color-full custom with way too much ornate trim, rosets, etc, etc....brush=death
-broom down walls and ceilings
-mask windows, etc
-Spray primer and all surfaces (hopefully trim/base is installed).
-fill, sand, caulk wood and prime it all again...
-sand and spray 2 coats on wood, semi or whatever trim is
-mask off trim/doors, spray walls two coats no backroll, peel tape from trim.
-tape off walls with 48" plastic...spray ceilings with two coats.

-come back and touch up for other trades, charging as needed ( i allow 6% of total job, after that the GC pays) 

Most of our walls are a Santa Fe finish, so backroll isnt really called for

most our ceilings are 14-18 feet, so fall out isnt an issue.

we also spray the ceilings "slow and low" keeping the paint misting down 

tips are normally 411 for trim 515 or 617 for the rest.

these are always big homes and it never seems like we get the house all to us as needed.
sometimes the trim isnt up/done yet, sometimes we layup one color coat first..etc etc.

opinions?

i would like to hear how others charge too...i know thats taboo but....we are in the 1.45 pf range, plus product....but it obviously varies on project....but this is where we start the pro-forma


----------



## construk

I am a high end finisher in vancouver doing anywhere between $5-$6 per square foot. Nobody has told you how to actually do your job to a high end finish. For starters if you have to ask you can't come close to doing the job. Here is a list of proper ways to do a high end home for everyone out there. Honestly my dad was a painter and i realized he was horrible. I have figured it out. 
- After drywall completed prime all walls and cielings and base coat all walls with color. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME MASKING AND SPRAYING USE 18" ROLLERS ONE MAN LITERALLY DIPPING AND THROWING PAINT ON WALLS AND CIELINGS AND ONE GUY BACKROLLING IT IS FASTER GUARANTEED!
- After finisher completed caulk everything one time. Then caulk all edges ( top of baseboards, side of door and window casings, top and bottom of crown) a second time. CAULKING SHRINKS YOU MUST DO THIS TO GET AN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT LINE. IF YOU DO NOT YOUR JOB WILL BE ****.
- Fill all holes 2 times. I use glazing putty on both fills. You can use shur patch or lightweight spackle on first fill if your lazy but the glazing putty will give you an automotive smooth finish. PERFECTION !
- Vaccuum all dust from house. THIS IS A MUST
- Mask all windows tiles and thresholds. Use only 3m blue or yellow tape for edges. ( green tape will bleed)
- Prime all trim with a fast drying latex primer. Kilz 2 is the product im using now. 
- Take a light to all trim holes and repatch where neccessary. 
- Reprime patches with kilz 2.
- Sand down all trim. 
- Vaccuum all dust from house.
- Wipe down all trim with Tack Cloth. This will remove any fine dust particles that 
will seperate you from the other 98% of painters.
- Spray a fast drying waterbourne semi-gloss.
- Re sand all trim re vaccuum re tack cloth.
- Spray finish coat on all trim.
- Pole sand all walls and cielings.
- Drop plastic from crown moulding with blue tape use wizz roller around edges and roll out cielings with 18" rollers one man wizz one man throwing paint one man backrolling.
- Mask all remaining trim with blue tape. 
- Cut and roll 2 coats using a hi-hide eggshell.
- I take a 1000 watt spotlight to walls for repairs prior to finish coat.


----------



## tsunamicontract

construk said:


> high end finisher
> +
> Kilz 2 is the product im using now.
> =


:whistling2:


----------



## daArch

tsunamicontract said:


> construk said:
> 
> 
> 
> high end finisher
> +
> Kilz 2 is the product im using now.
> =
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :whistling2:
Click to expand...

Yah, I was thinking something similar. Musta changed the formula


----------



## ozipainter

some interesting reading in here, here in aus all major volume builders do not allow a spray finish due to maintenance issues, and some do not allow any spraying at all, i think i do as much as i can with my unit before it becomes unprofitable to go any further with spraying, we also have to live with the fact here that you are more than likely to get visits from other trades while trying to complete your work, new constuction here in aus is based on a 2 ct system, all timber is preprimed, with the exception of a few timber quads, the method i use is 

Fill , sand ,sweep out and sheet
1ct acrylic sealer undercoat sprayed to all walls and woodwork (tinted colour as spec) 
1ct to ceilings (colour spec)
pole sand all walls 
caulk all woodwork and sand, dust down
spray door casings and doors, best method i find for 4 panel doors. is brush a rough ct to outer edge of door then 2 sweeps using a 515 tip is enough to get coverage into the moulding and the panels of the door then dry roll using a 6mm mohair roller , i use this method because it iliminates a lot of overspray and waste. it also keeps the oli based enamel off the walls (not enough space in homes here to center the doors in 1 room)
spray 2nd ct to ceilings and dryroll 
enamel door trim (brush)
cut and roll walls 
enamel basebaord (brush)
refit doors and furniture


----------



## jack pauhl

tsunamicontract said:


> :whistling2:


I'm with him on that... Kilz2 has a purpose here.

Surprised to see so many different methods people use on new homes. I wish I can chime in on this one... top secret stuff.


----------



## nicolob

*Is overspray a problem on walls before you cut and roll?*



Mantis said:


> Seems like everyone has put in their 2 cents on this one, so I might as well grab my pennies too! Here's how we do it:
> 
> After the drywallers are finished;
> 1. Broom drywall/corners and spray primer walls and ceiling.
> 2. Sand walls/ceiling and spray first coat of color on walls.
> 3. Spray first coat of ceiling white/color.
> 
> After the trimmers are finished;
> 4. Fill trim
> 5. Prime trim
> 6. Sand trim and check for imperfections.
> 7. Spray first finish coat.
> 8. Scuff and light trim, check for imperfections.
> 9. Caulk baseboard/trim.
> 10. Spray finish coat on trim.
> 11. Finish ceilings
> 12. Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls
> 
> We find that caulking the trim after the first coat of sanded finish is applied is easier on the fingers.


 
Hey Mantis,

Do you have any problems with overspray on walls when spraying semi-gloss latex on trim and cutting and rolling flat latex on walls?

Thank you,
NicoloB


----------



## jack pauhl

Mantis, ever try this?

Switch 4 and 5 around and skip 6 until before 9

edit: whoop. Switch 4 and 5 around and skip 6 until [AFTER] 9


----------



## ProWallGuy

jack pauhl said:


> skip 6 until [AFTER] 9


You sand _after_ you caulk?


----------



## TooledUp

ProWallGuy said:


> You sand _after_ you caulk?



Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnope! :thumbup:

I agree with switching 4 n 5 around though :thumbsup:


----------



## TooledUp

...I wouldn't finish trim/woodwork before I'd painted ceilings either


----------



## jack pauhl

ProWallGuy said:


> You sand _after_ you caulk?


Yes. Because his 8. Scuff and light trim, check for imperfections. Also includes dried caulk protrusions left behind. I dont get many but it happens under poor lighting and I dont like surprises after its shot.


----------



## NEPS.US

..............and the truth is coming out about JP .....HACK! Stick to your blog for HO's.


----------



## Workaholic

NEPS.US said:


> ..............and the truth is coming out about JP .....HACK! Stick to your blog for HO's.


Don't pussyfoot around, tell us how you really feel.


----------



## jack pauhl

*Putty and patch*

I patch these areas as seen and fill everything else with putty. Thats DryDex.


----------



## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> ..............and the truth is coming out about JP .....HACK! Stick to your blog for HO's.


hack? wow dude you have no clue at all. Calling yourself a pro huh?

NEPS.US has 2,219 posts of pure BS


----------



## NEPS.US

"I would love to spend a day painting with you. I make people like yourself all the time look like you just learned how to hold a brush.

You dont post a single thing on these boards worth a damn to anyone. If I knew you personally as my comp I would carry all your BS posts with me in a folder to show the customers how a professional painter behaves."

*THAT* was a sweet PM from Jack to me...... Buddy how many times do you need to be trashed here. We have picked the crap out of your lousy "how to" videos and now you NC sequence. Your a joke. Your blog is a poor attempt to get noticed from manufacturers to test product. I dont think you really have the slightest clue. Get a folder and come up to Boston. As I have said before, I'll give you a job cleaning brushes. You would not be my competition. I don't paint dog houses.


----------



## TooledUp

I had a bit of a job figuring that one out there NEPS - Maybe you should edit to say "that was sweet a pm" instead of "this was..." :thumbsup:

Anyways I just wanted to get...


----------



## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> "I would love to spend a day painting with you. I make people like yourself all the time look like you just learned how to hold a brush.
> 
> You dont post a single thing on these boards worth a damn to anyone. If I knew you personally as my comp I would carry all your BS posts with me in a folder to show the customers how a professional painter behaves."
> 
> This was a sweet PM from Jack to me...... Buddy how many times do you need to be trashed here. We have picked the crap out of your lousy "how to" videos and now you NC sequence. Your a joke. Your blog is a poor attempt to get noticed from manufacturers to test product. I dont think you really have the slightest clue. Get a folder and come up to Boston. As I have said before, I'll give you a job cleaning brushes. You would not be my competition. I don't paint dog houses.


Seriously, you are a joke on this board.


----------



## TooledUp

jack pauhl said:


> Seriously, you are a joke on this board.


Jack - In all seriousness, Your 'ideas' are probably a little ahead of their time. You preach against tradition at the speed of light. You're talking about re-inventing the wheel but the tires that run on them don't fit.

You can't really expect to tell a few thousand tradesmen that they've been doing it wrong all of their life and that they should be turning it out 7 times faster without getting some fallout. Don't get at NEPS. He's just saying what all of the 'tadesmen' are thinking.


----------



## vermontpainter

Hey guys, I just had a breakthrough today inspired by our esteemed colleague. If I glue 7 stir sticks together I can stir 7 times as much paint 7 times as fast for an exponential production gain of 49%. I was gonna keep this top secret but I am too excited. 

Seriously Jack, you are probably here fishing for inexperienced startups to go to your blog and get hooked into paying you to consult them. The problem is, you present ideas that are very mundane and not particularly breakthrough quality and try to attach outrageous results to them. Its too transparent to be believable. I did like your work here: www.bejane.com

That was cool. Why arent you listed among the "expert janes" over there?


----------



## vermontpainter

Since he is not listed as an expert jane, here are the pearls of wisdom. All you painters in the house, raise your hand in the air if you can think of a latex primer that is capable of exceeding Mr. Pauhl's 10 criteria:

Is primer for you?
Jack Pauhl writes:
Mon, 01/19/2009 - 11:30am
The best primer for bare drywall depends on what expectations you have from the paint you will apply over it. You have a few options, the short answer is – primer is not the best option for new drywall, a drywall sealer such as Zinsser Gardz is. However, keep in mind like any product, there are many differences in quality and features. It’s best to decide what you expect out of the paint you will be putting over the bare drywall. Some people paint to simply freshen up a room with no other expectations such as 1) hanging wallpaper at a later date or 2) having the option to wipe, 3) wash, 4) scrub the walls or 5) in kids rooms being able to remove crayon and permanent marker, 6) ability to repeatedly remove taped-up posters and pictures and 7) to apply and remove masking tape for a wild color scheme of stripes and stars, 8) applying finish paint such as eggshell or semi-gloss, 9) high traffic areas and 10) in rooms or areas with large amounts of window glare. Whatever your expectations are for finish paints - washability and scrubabilty features and the items listed above are dependant on the basecoat beneath the top coat. It’s important to understand the different capabilities of wall primers. You may want to google me and read up on bare drywall for a more in depth look at the limitations of wall primer.


----------



## Mantis

nicolob said:


> Hey Mantis,
> 
> Do you have any problems with overspray on walls when spraying semi-gloss latex on trim and cutting and rolling flat latex on walls?
> 
> Thank you,
> NicoloB


Hi NicoloB! Welcome to Paint Talk!
I'm not quite sure what problems you are eluding to. 
Haloing? Could be a problem if you're planning on spraying 1 coat of finish i guess.
Ahesion? We pole sand (no i havent bought a damned 360 yet!) the walls before we brush and roll. Sanding the overspray knocks the sheen off the semi and the wall paint has no problem sticking where it needs to stick. Now we have had issues with tape pulling the wall paint off due to improper scuff sanding, take a piece of paper to the areas your stick cant reach and you'll be fine.


----------



## Mantis

jack pauhl said:


> Mantis, ever try this?
> 
> Switch 4 and 5 around and skip 6 until before 9
> 
> edit: whoop. Switch 4 and 5 around and skip 6 until [AFTER] 9


Just so im clear... you are asking to fill holes after prime and sand primer after we caulk? 
We never fill after prime. Trim primer is better suited for hiding the filler and sealing it up better than finish. Less flashing, bleed through, etc. This is especially true on larger patches or when using a more porous filler. Generally speaking, if we have to patch anything larger than a nail head with putty after the prime I'll shoot it with a can of Pro Block before spraying my first finish coat. 

As far as skipping 6 until after 9... Never. Prime, Sand, 1st coat trim, then caulk. Occasionally I'll caulk after sanding the primer, but normally after the first coat of trim finish. From what I'm gathering from reading your post, you prime then fill holes, sand holes, caulk, then shoot 2 coats of trim? When do you sand your primer? With your first top coat? Seems like that would leave a lot of bad caulk lines and sore fingers. We used to caulk and fill everything before we prime trim, but not anymore. I can't imagine priming trim then caulking THEN sanding... ouch.


----------



## vermontpainter

I don't know about JP, but I have had the best luck in nc burying those son of a guns under every coat possible. When you move as quickly and efficiently as Jack, its easy to miss stuff though. He is a production fellow.


----------



## DeanV

For a high quality finish, it is ESSENTIAL to sand the primer coat well. If you apply finish to unsanded primer, it will never be as good. I fill nail holes before primer as well, since sanding can burn through primer.

I fill, sand, prime, sand, caulk, finish, sand, finish.


----------



## jack pauhl

TooledUp said:


> Jack - In all seriousness, Your 'ideas' are probably a little ahead of their time. You preach against tradition at the speed of light. You're talking about re-inventing the wheel but the tires that run on them don't fit.
> 
> You can't really expect to tell a few thousand tradesmen that they've been doing it wrong all of their life and that they should be turning it out 7 times faster without getting some fallout. Don't get at NEPS. He's just saying what all of the 'tadesmen' are thinking.


I know but I'm no hack. You wrote: "Jack - In all seriousness, Your 'ideas' are probably a little ahead of their time". No, the way I see it, the norm like what maybe you are referring to is primitive to me.

Its funny though. I've been posting for over 10 years on these boards. I've been dealing with this exact same thing over and over on every board I post. The stuff I posted 10 years ago is basically the same stuff I post now with slight variations, tweaks. What I dont think anyone realizes is my stuff is copied and posted everywhere by others so I find it hard to believe NEPS has a clue. Whats odd is, the emails and PM's I get are the opposite reaction to what I get on these boards. 

I get the exact same crap from guys at the PS too until I end up working with them on their job. Then their reaction is "dude, I thought you were full of ****". None of them take me serious at first and the reason is what I do is insane in comparison to their best day, seriously insane. I do in 70-80 hrs what their crew of 7 does in 346+ hours. Hey NEPS, if you are not interested on how thats possible then keep your mouth shut because others want to know. You have to inject your crap on all the good threads and clutter them up.

Where do you think the whole "HOME SERVICES" came from? You see that everywhere now, Home Depot, Maids, etc. Guys straight up rip my old websites and make it their own. Hell they even copy the company name too. 

Anyway, I dont do anything traditional in this business, you cant possibly comprehend my frustration with the tools I had to use developing my systems. This is why when the Wooster Alpha came out, I said, "Finally, a brush that's made for power users" and "The Alpha truly makes me feel as if I own a quality professional tool of the trade".<The first. Why would I follow in the footsteps of constant failure, I'm not oblivious to what others do, its my business to know.. and I'm not oblivious to the impact I've made over the years on these forums. Might sound a little or a lot pat-on-the-back, but thats the honest truth of it. NEPS doesnt mean a damn thing to me, he's just another loud mouth, I deal with his kind all to often. NEPS is the epitome of the sterotypical painter. Join him.


----------



## jack pauhl

There are 4 more reasons to sand after caulk, one quality related, one durability related and two more for efficiency reasons that affect the other steps Mantis outlined. NEPS will explain them so everybody understands and then maybe NEPS can explain how taking extra steps to assure quality results are referred to as hacks. 

NEPS buddy, I bet you can’t come up with one reason why sanding after caulk is a bad idea and I would sure like to hear why you refer to it as a hack.


----------



## jack pauhl

DeanV said:


> For a high quality finish, it is ESSENTIAL to sand the primer coat well. If you apply finish to unsanded primer, it will never be as good. I fill nail holes before primer as well, since sanding can burn through primer.
> 
> I fill, sand, prime, sand, caulk, finish, sand, finish.


How so? With what primer? Did you know some primers provide more bite if you dont sand them?

If you have something smooth like pre-primed trim and shoot a smooth coat of primer over it, why d=is it ESSENTIAL to sand the double smooth surface exactly?


----------



## DeanV

I would not sand uncoated caulk because dust tends to stick to caulk. It can also adversely affect the texture of the caulk. Once the first coat of finish is applied to the caulk, then any imperfections can be sanded out. Caulk does apply better between coats of finish, but then there are no second chances to look over caulk as carefully as it can be done after a coat of finish is on top.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Since he is not listed as an expert jane, here are the pearls of wisdom. All you painters in the house, raise your hand in the air if you can think of a latex primer that is capable of exceeding Mr. Pauhl's 10 criteria:
> 
> Is primer for you?
> Jack Pauhl writes:
> Mon, 01/19/2009 - 11:30am
> The best primer for bare drywall depends on what expectations you have from the paint you will apply over it. You have a few options, the short answer is – primer is not the best option for new drywall, a drywall sealer such as Zinsser Gardz is. However, keep in mind like any product, there are many differences in quality and features. It’s best to decide what you expect out of the paint you will be putting over the bare drywall. Some people paint to simply freshen up a room with no other expectations such as 1) hanging wallpaper at a later date or 2) having the option to wipe, 3) wash, 4) scrub the walls or 5) in kids rooms being able to remove crayon and permanent marker, 6) ability to repeatedly remove taped-up posters and pictures and 7) to apply and remove masking tape for a wild color scheme of stripes and stars, 8) applying finish paint such as eggshell or semi-gloss, 9) high traffic areas and 10) in rooms or areas with large amounts of window glare. Whatever your expectations are for finish paints - washability and scrubabilty features and the items listed above are dependant on the basecoat beneath the top coat. It’s important to understand the different capabilities of wall primers. You may want to google me and read up on bare drywall for a more in depth look at the limitations of wall primer.


Was that too technical for you? Those DIY people seem to understand it clearly. There is no latex primer that will do all that. Come on. These posts are a waste of time and space. This guy had a decent thread going on here.


----------



## DeanV

jack pauhl said:


> How so? With what primer? Did you know some primers provide more bite if you dont sand them?
> 
> If you have something smooth like pre-primed trim and shoot a smooth coat of primer over it, why d=is it ESSENTIAL to sand the double smooth surface exactly?


1. Perfection in a spray job does not exist, so every coat benefits from sanding to smooth as much as possible. It removes any texture so each successive coat goes on more smoothly.

2. Primed MDF is NOT a perfect, smooth substrate. Check out the edge of door trim and the top of base. Check out the MDF doors. Sand please even before priming:thumbsup:.


----------



## NEPS.US

Maybe I mis-read something or I am too slow for your mind that must think like 7 men. You ARE suggesting that you do not sand the trim after priming. You prime, fill nails (no sanding), shoot 1st coat trim (still no sanding), caulk trim and then finally SAND??? I'm not sure what pre-primed product you are using that does not need a full sand before any finish coats or the magnitude of the quality of your work. There are blow and go guys all over that think they can get it done faster because they have no clue how to price a job. 

Do you like having dust stuck in your caulking? Or sand the caulking? Or sand wood filler under two coats of paint? Why would you ever sand a semi gloss finish that has been prepped for spraying? I don't think you understand how to prep a house for spraying. Maybe your focus should be on the quality of your surface prep and not the speed.

Your selling a gimmick. Your videos are shot from a distance with watered down paint and you do not even come close to the object being cut. You talk a big game of how great you are and could possibly be the fastest painter in the world, but somehow I doubt you would be allowed to finish one job I have started in the last 15 years. 

Speed and poor quality does not make a painting professional. I've read you on other boards. You should stick to DIY product reviews and leave contract painting advice to professionals.


----------



## TooledUp

jack pauhl said:


> If you have something smooth like pre-primed trim and shoot a smooth coat of primer over it, why d=is it ESSENTIAL to sand the double smooth surface exactly?


Here in the UK we have a 3 paint system for wood. We have a primer - That is the first coat. "Prime" means what it infers, a "first" coat. Then we use undercoat. This is a flat finish, usually the same or similar color to your top coat. We normally give 2 coats of this on wood that is to be finished white or light. Then there's the top/finish coat. You always give a good sand after the prime as the wood tends to furr up. This is one of the reasons that you should fill after prime because you aren't scoring the new timber and 'tearing' the grain as you would if you filled and sanded before prime. It also hardens the wood so that you get a much better sanding finish and ends up a lot smoother. You should always give a light scuff between coats - This is to take any specks of dust or crap that you might pick up in your paint during application. On pre-primed MDF then you can obviously fill first but it still needs a sand. Same goes for varnishing/staining - One coat, fill/putty and sand between coats but not before Bare timber sanding is bad practice!

There you go Jack. Now you can go make a video and show us how that's a heap of shyte because you can get the job done faster and better because tearing the timber gives the primer a better key - Oh yeah, and how caulk sands down nicely without tearing and messing up too!


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Was that too technical for you?
> 
> _No Jack. You are not very technical. As I said above, you take very mundane concepts, amplify them and I must give you credit for being a master of self promotion, that you are. On the paint side, not so much._
> 
> Those DIY people seem to understand it clearly. T
> 
> _Do you actually listen to what you say? And why havent they made you an expert Jane?_
> 
> There is no latex primer that will do all that. Come on.
> 
> _Here on planet Earth, there actually are, Jack_.


----------



## TooledUp

What I don't see, after 10 years of your 'educating the painter trade on the Internet', is *anybody* saying "WOW this Jack has improved my business 7 fold". Nothing like it anywhere that google has found.

It's like a new fangled painting tool - If it's any good then it's used in the trade. You are the human version of an accubrush.


----------



## Slingah

someone please PM me a link to Jack's info videos...I'd like to see 'em
t.i.a.


----------



## TooledUp

Slingah said:


> someone please PM me a link to Jack's info videos...I'd like to see 'em
> t.i.a.


Just don't try this at home. They are for entertainment purposes only.

I find the "



" one particularly funny :thumbup: I would fire any painter that wiped his brush down like that to load it .

There is actually a market for


----------



## nicolob

*Eliminate as much masking as possible?*



Mantis said:


> Hi NicoloB! Welcome to Paint Talk!
> I'm not quite sure what problems you are eluding to.
> Haloing? Could be a problem if you're planning on spraying 1 coat of finish i guess.
> Ahesion? We pole sand (no i havent bought a damned 360 yet!) the walls before we brush and roll. Sanding the overspray knocks the sheen off the semi and the wall paint has no problem sticking where it needs to stick. Now we have had issues with tape pulling the wall paint off due to improper scuff sanding, take a piece of paper to the areas your stick cant reach and you'll be fine.


 
Mantis,
Thanks for responding 

10. Spray finish coat on trim.
11. Finish ceilings
12. Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls

In your sequence for new construction, I am trying to eliminate as
much masking as possible and if I can do step 
10. Spray finish coat on trim,
without masking off walls that would save a lot of time?
I am using an HVLP for the trim, I know it is slower than airless but I
think I get lot less overspray on everything.

What I am wondering is when I do spray and finish the trim, can I eliminate masking off walls, and proceed to step 11 and step 12
Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls with out having any problem with
any trim overspray flashing through wall paint because I did not mask
for trim spray? I am using Sherwin Williams water based Pro-
Classic semi for the Trim, and flat ProMar-400 for walls.


Thank you,
Nicolo B


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## Workaholic

nicolob said:


> What I am wondering is when I do spray and finish the trim, can I eliminate masking off walls, and proceed to step 11 and step 12
> Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls with out having any problem with
> any trim overspray flashing through wall paint because I did not mask
> for trim spray? I am using Sherwin Williams water based Pro-
> Classic semi for the Trim, and flat ProMar-400 for walls.


Yes you will be fine. i like to sand around the wall around the trim after primer and after finish before cutting in and rolling.


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## WisePainter

Workaholic said:


> Yes you will be fine. i like to sand around the wall around the trim after primer and after finish before cutting in and rolling.


When I was new I didn't understand sanding the oil trim paint that was on the wall before painting until I pulled the tape and a huge sheet of wall paint lifted.


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## Workaholic

WisePainter said:


> When I was new I didn't understand sanding the oil trim paint that was on the wall before painting until I pulled the tape and a huge sheet of wall paint lifted.


That is the kind of lesson that sticks with you forever. You are going to have to give up that oil one day.


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## ewingpainting.net

Workaholic said:


> That is the kind of lesson that sticks with you forever. You are going to have to give up that oil one day.


I gave oil up bout a year ago. The new water based blows the oils away.


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## Workaholic

ewingpainting.net said:


> I gave oil up bout a year ago. The new water based blows the oils away.


I gave up oil in 06. I still like oil but the waterbourne acrylics are totaly fine without the extra hassles and expenses.


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## WisePainter

Workaholic said:


> That is the kind of lesson that sticks with you forever. You are going to have to give up that oil one day.





ewingpainting.net said:


> I gave oil up bout a year ago. The new water based blows the oils away.


Soon my SW rep will demo some new water based alternatives. I am curious but worried about applying them because I am so used to the way oil sprays.


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## Workaholic

WisePainter said:


> Soon my SW rep will demo some new water based alternatives. I am curious but worried about applying them because I am so used to the way oil sprays.


You will get used to it just like a lot of us did.


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## Mantis

nicolob said:


> Mantis,
> Thanks for responding
> 
> 10. Spray finish coat on trim.
> 11. Finish ceilings
> 12. Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls
> 
> In your sequence for new construction, I am trying to eliminate as
> much masking as possible and if I can do step
> 10. Spray finish coat on trim,
> without masking off walls that would save a lot of time?
> I am using an HVLP for the trim, I know it is slower than airless but I
> think I get lot less overspray on everything.
> 
> What I am wondering is when I do spray and finish the trim, can I eliminate masking off walls, and proceed to step 11 and step 12
> Brush/Roll finish coat(s) on walls with out having any problem with
> any trim overspray flashing through wall paint because I did not mask
> for trim spray? I am using Sherwin Williams water based Pro-
> Classic semi for the Trim, and flat ProMar-400 for walls.
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> Nicolo B


There is no need to mask your walls before spraying trim. We use Pro Classic semi for our trim finish almost exclusively. I was spraying it today as a matter of fact! You will have absolutely no problem with it flashing through your wall paint. Just as I said earlier, make sure you give the overspray a good scuffing when you sand your walls, apply 2 coats of wall finish, and you'll be fine. Zero flashing.

I think an HVLP is overkill for spraying a house full of latex trim. Though my biggest concern is your choice in wall paint. You seem to want a fine finish on your walls, and you're using a great product for it, so why go to the bottom of the barrel for wall finish? Talk to your rep and see if they can get you some good prcing on SW Cashmere instead.


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## nicolob

Mantis said:


> There is no need to mask your walls before spraying trim. We use Pro Classic semi for our trim finish almost exclusively. I was spraying it today as a matter of fact! You will have absolutely no problem with it flashing through your wall paint. Just as I said earlier, make sure you give the overspray a good scuffing when you sand your walls, apply 2 coats of wall finish, and you'll be fine. Zero flashing.
> 
> I think an HVLP is overkill for spraying a house full of latex trim. Though my biggest concern is your choice in wall paint. You seem to want a fine finish on your walls, and you're using a great product for it, so why go to the bottom of the barrel for wall finish? Talk to your rep and see if they can get you some good prcing on SW Cashmere instead.


 
Thanks again Mantis,

I only used the Pro-Mar 400 extra white for the ceilings only, because
it seems to be flat deader than Pro-Mar 200 or SW Interior Superpaint.

I will either use Pro-Mar 200 or SW Superpaint for walls, both Flat. 
You are right the Pro-Mar 400 for walls is not in the same class as the 
Pro-Classics and SW Cashmere.

Also, I'll let you know how this turns out when I get there.


NicoloB


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## RCP

jack pauhl said:


> I know but I'm no hack. You wrote: "Jack - In all seriousness, Your 'ideas' are probably a little ahead of their time". No, the way I see it, the norm like what maybe you are referring to is primitive to me.
> 
> Its funny though. I've been posting for over 10 years on these boards. I've been dealing with this exact same thing over and over on every board I post. The stuff I posted 10 years ago is basically the same stuff I post now with slight variations, tweaks. What I dont think anyone realizes is my stuff is copied and posted everywhere by others so I find it hard to believe NEPS has a clue. Whats odd is, the emails and PM's I get are the opposite reaction to what I get on these boards.
> 
> I get the exact same crap from guys at the PS too until I end up working with them on their job. Then their reaction is "dude, I thought you were full of ****". None of them take me serious at first and the reason is what I do is insane in comparison to their best day, seriously insane. I do in 70-80 hrs what their crew of 7 does in 346+ hours. Hey NEPS, if you are not interested on how thats possible then keep your mouth shut because others want to know. You have to inject your crap on all the good threads and clutter them up.
> 
> Where do you think the whole "HOME SERVICES" came from? You see that everywhere now, Home Depot, Maids, etc. Guys straight up rip my old websites and make it their own. Hell they even copy the company name too.
> 
> Anyway, I dont do anything traditional in this business, you cant possibly comprehend my frustration with the tools I had to use developing my systems. This is why when the Wooster Alpha came out, I said, "Finally, a brush that's made for power users" and "The Alpha truly makes me feel as if I own a quality professional tool of the trade".<The first. Why would I follow in the footsteps of constant failure, I'm not oblivious to what others do, its my business to know.. and I'm not oblivious to the impact I've made over the years on these forums. Might sound a little or a lot pat-on-the-back, but thats the honest truth of it. NEPS doesnt mean a damn thing to me, he's just another loud mouth, I deal with his kind all to often. NEPS is the epitome of the sterotypical painter. Join him.


I have to give you credit for tenacity!


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## Metro M & L

PVPainter said:


> 30 man hours, what kind of sq ft are we talking here???


Sq. ft? Thirty


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## Workaholic

Metro M & L said:


> Sq. ft? Thirty


Huh?


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## RCP

Metro M & L said:


> Sq. ft? Thirty


Welcome to the site Metro, feel free to post an intro here- http://www.painttalk.com/f3/ and tell us about yourself!

I am not sure what you are saying, I would be happy to answer if you are asking a question? I think you are referencing a question to one of my posts.


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## ScottyDaRoach

Now I am a contractor, not a painter. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told by many of my painters that if you finish spray the trim with any gloss it will affect how your flat goes on the wall, where it overlaps. Thanks


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## Workaholic

ScottyDaRoach said:


> Now I am a contractor, not a painter. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told by many of my painters that if you finish spray the trim with any gloss it will affect how your flat goes on the wall, where it overlaps. Thanks


A good scuff sand will usually take care of potential flashing problems. On the flip side of that always trust your painters. :whistling2:

Are you a GC or a painting contractor that is more business man?


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## MAK-Deco

When we go in and put the first "real" coat of paint on the wall for a newer home its funny paints like Aura will dry slower around the windows and doors and see exactly where the gloss was sprayed on doors and windows.. It drys out fine and you can't tell...


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## Workaholic

MAK-Deco said:


> When we go in and put the first "real" coat of paint on the wall for a newer home its funny paints like Aura will dry slower around the windows and doors and see exactly where the gloss was sprayed on doors and windows.. It drys out fine and you can't tell...


Yep, I suppose it would look nerve racking to the unknowing.


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## csbeepee

DeanV said:


> 1. After drywallers leave, prime and shoot ceilings
> 
> Let trim carpenters do their thing and go somewhere else for a couple weeks.
> 
> 2. Now that trim is installed, fill and sand all the nail holes.
> 3. Prime trim
> 4. Caulk and look over all nail holes, fix imperfections in trim.
> 5. Spray first finish coat.
> 6. Light up and fix any imperfection in trim, caulk, nail holes, etc
> 7. Spray 2nd coat on trim.
> 8. Paint walls 2 coats



Dean, 

Great sequence! I'm assuming this is a two color scheme (ceiling/walls). If you were doing a single color wall/ceiling, would you just shoot them at the same time? Roll second coat or shoot them both and come back for touch up later? 

How many man hours to finish?


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## DeanV

Our new construction project tend to be larger custom homes with many difference wall colors. We do not put finish on walls before doing the trim. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PNW Painter

ScottyDaRoach said:


> Now I am a contractor, not a painter. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told by many of my painters that if you finish spray the trim with any gloss it will affect how your flat goes on the wall, where it overlaps. Thanks



The gloss from the trim on the drywall can create at least two potential issues:

1) the flat paint won't adhere to the trim paint. The trim paint needs to be scuff sanded before the flat paint is applied.

2) many painters use cheap PVA primers on drywall. These do a horrible job of sealing the surface. The areas where trim paint is on the drywall will be sealed and this will cause a sheen difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goga

PVPainter said:


> 30 man hours, what kind of sq ft are we talking here???


1800 sf house takes about 10 hrs to mask, prime and paint with time for drying in between not counted, 30 hrs at least to do millwork the right way. If time is an issue, prepaint millwork, doors, base, casing, etc. is a must, prime, finish, let it be installed, fill the holes with the same color patty, roll over the trouble spots, I'd spray. Done. Yeah, and I never backroll.


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## goga

PNW Painter said:


> The gloss from the trim on the drywall can create at least two potential issues:
> 
> 1) the flat paint won't adhere to the trim paint. The trim paint needs to be scuff sanded before the flat paint is applied.
> 
> 2) many painters use cheap PVA primers on drywall. These do a horrible job of sealing the surface. The areas where trim paint is on the drywall will be sealed and this will cause a sheen difference.


I wouldn't call those guys painters, many drywallers not only use that kind of junk, they spray it on with junk equipment and in junky way, lines, missed areas and thick spots where gun is stopped for few moments. Fixing that kind of "prime" with NC allotted amount of paint and time is nearly impossible.


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## Marci

goga said:


> I wouldn't call those guys painters, many drywallers not only use that kind of junk, they spray it on with junk equipment and in junky way, lines, missed areas and thick spots where gun is stopped for few moments. Fixing that kind of "prime" with NC allotted amount of paint and time is nearly impossible.


Has anyone ever heard of painters who prime but want to paint color/final coats ONLY after cabinets and countertops are installed?


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## finishesbykevyn

Marci said:


> Has anyone ever heard of painters who prime but want to paint color/final coats ONLY after cabinets and countertops are installed?


Who's asking? This thread is 7 years old.


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## tomato head

cole191919 said:


> I would get the first coat on the walls first as well just because it is more efficient to only have to cut along the baseboards once as opposed to doing it twice. And priming the baseboards first would also save you some time I think. Put em up on some sawhorses and go to town on them. Caulk/fill after installing and put final coats on them. The more time you can save, the happier the GC would be I'm sure.


See. I just don’t quite get that because when you paint the trim, you’re getting it on the wall (knowing you’ll cover it up during your cut in) . So, you’d still need to cut in twice to cover up the trim white (probably satin or semi) that got on the walls. I’d love if this worked though. What am I missing?


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## tomato head

DeanV said:


> *new construction order*
> 
> 1. After drywallers leave, prime and shoot ceilings
> 
> Let trim carpenters do their thing and go somewhere else for a couple weeks.
> 
> 2. Now that trim is installed, fill and sand all the nail holes.
> 3. Prime trim
> 4. Caulk and look over all nail holes, fix imperfections in trim.
> 5. Spray first finish coat.
> 6. Light up and fix any imperfection in trim, caulk, nail holes, etc
> 7. Spray 2nd coat on trim.
> 8. Paint walls 2 coats


 That’s weird that your drywallers don’t prime. Is that normal there?


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## tomato head

tomato head said:


> That’s weird that your drywallers don’t prime. Is that normal there?


 you are the one and only person that does it exactly as I do. I do tape off the baseboards before rolling because it protects from any drips (I use an 18" so I'm a little more prone to have a few... plus it doubles as making the cut in line down there easier on neck.


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