# Breakthrough warning



## Mr Smith

FYI:

I just talked to a couple of paint reps and PPG Breakthrough doesn't stand up very well over time. Hand oils break down the finish on cabinet doors. They are seeing this after a couple of years on the cabinet doors that get used a lot like under the sink.


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## Gymschu

Same is true with ProClassic. Part of why I adamantly tell HO's that touch-ups are a necessity whether it's every year or every two........you will have to touch up if you want those cabinets to continue looking good.


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## Rbriggs82

Mr Smith said:


> FYI:
> 
> I just talked to a couple of paint reps and PPG Breakthrough doesn't stand up very well over time. Hand oils break down the finish on cabinet doors. They are seeing this after a couple of years on the cabinet doors that get used a lot like under the sink.


Which version or Breakthrough are we referring to, old or new? 

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## PACman

Heehee. I'm such a meanie. But sometimes people just have to discover stuff on their own before they'll believe the truth. I've known this for years. But none of you would have believed me anyway so i kept my mouth shut. We used to sell a clear coat to use over this product when it was a Vanex product just for this reason. Why PPG doesn't i have no idea.


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## lilpaintchic

Because it wont stick to breakthrough...?who knows....


PACman said:


> Heehee. I'm such a meanie. But sometimes people just have to discover stuff on their own before they'll believe the truth. I've known this for years. But none of you would have believed me anyway so i kept my mouth shut. We used to sell a clear coat to use over this product when it was a Vanex product just for this reason. Why PPG doesn't i have no idea.


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## Rbriggs82

Breakthrough also comes in clear. I dunno I've been using it for years and never ever had a problem or a call back. I use the older version which could be the difference tho. 

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## PACman

lilpaintchic said:


> Because it wont stick to breakthrough...?who knows....
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


yeah it does.


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## PACman

Rbriggs82 said:


> Breakthrough also comes in clear. I dunno I've been using it for years and never ever had a problem or a call back. I use the older version which could be the difference tho.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


could be. The lo voc versions would have a higher solids content which COULD mean more filler, which would cause it to do this. But the original Vanex version, the "first" PPG version, would break down from excessive "hand oil" contact. It's why our furniture and cabinet manufacturers wouldn't use it most of the time without the clear coat. And for them, with having the proper spray booths and such, conversion varnish was the way to go instead of having to spray two different products. Two coats of pigmented conversion varnish held up better.


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## Mr Smith

Rbriggs82 said:


> Which version or Breakthrough are we referring to, old or new?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


New version. Low VOC


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## Mr Smith

PACman said:


> Heehee. I'm such a meanie. But sometimes people just have to discover stuff on their own before they'll believe the truth. I've known this for years. But none of you would have believed me anyway so i kept my mouth shut. We used to sell a clear coat to use over this product when it was a Vanex product just for this reason. Why PPG doesn't i have no idea.


I've never heard of Vanex. Did PPG buy them out?

I wonder if BM Stay clear is compatible with BT?

Do you think Scuff-X would withstand hand oils? A BM store owner suggested using it instead of Breakthrough. He used to be a painter and knows BT.


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## PACman

Mr Smith said:


> I've never heard of Vanex. Did PPG buy them out?
> 
> I wonder if BM Stay clear is compatible with BT?
> 
> Do you think Scuff-X would withstand hand oils? A BM store owner suggested using it instead of Breakthrough. He used to be a painter and knows BT.


Vanex was the originator of Breakthrough and yes, PPG bought them out years ago. 25 years ago is was a miracle product. Now? maybe not so much.


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## ParamountPaint

I see these kitchens without knobs and pulls and the finish always looks terrible. Its inevitable that the finish is going to get beat up. That's why we have doorknobs.

Any product is going to start looking bad if you go around rubbing dirty hands on it all of the time.

I don't care one way or the other about breakthrough. I like the 250, but I'm not crazy about the 50, although it brushes better.


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## Pete Martin the Painter

Mr Smith said:


> FYI:
> 
> I just talked to a couple of paint reps and PPG Breakthrough doesn't stand up very well over time. Hand oils break down the finish on cabinet doors. They are seeing this after a couple of years on the cabinet doors that get used a lot like under the sink.


I did a job with Breakthrough for a front entrace door a few years ago. I used it because it was an entrance to a busy law office, so I needed a quick drying paint. And, Breakthrough was supposed to be durable. Saw the door a couple of days ago. It looks terrible. I will never use it again.

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## woodcoyote

Sounds like WB Alkyd Urethane Enamel to the rescue.  



Or a pigmented poly finish. Does Ben Moore offer that? Not sure...


I don't see them as a complete paint manufacturing company, mostly just retail type paint. Just one of many reasons I don't use them or home depot. But I admit they do make some good interior wall paint.


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## lilpaintchic

PACman said:


> could be. The lo voc versions would have a higher solids content which COULD mean more filler, which would cause it to do this. But the original Vanex version, the "first" PPG version, would break down from excessive "hand oil" contact. It's why our furniture and cabinet manufacturers wouldn't use it most of the time without the clear coat. And for them, with having the proper spray booths and such, conversion varnish was the way to go instead of having to spray two different products. Two coats of pigmented conversion varnish held up better.


Still does...

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## mug

I have not seen much of any waterborne paint hold up well to oils especially in the bathrooms if cosmetics get on the paint. This is why I just clear coat cabinets. I will say that the Breakthrough sprays beautifully and you would have to try hard to mess it up (horizontally) 
I sprayed Advance on my personal cabinets 3 years ago and they have done well with that however, prone to chipping. 
The lower cabinets got dark chocolate milk paint from general finishes with a water clear coat and held up best of all.


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## jacob33

All the waterbased paints I have seen are not durable enough for me. They also stay tacky forever especially in darker colors. Oil yellows and smells. I have heard of clearcoating waterbased paint but have not done it.


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## finishesbykevyn

Mr Smith said:


> I've never heard of Vanex. Did PPG buy them out?
> 
> I wonder if BM Stay clear is compatible with BT?
> 
> Do you think Scuff-X would withstand hand oils? A BM store owner suggested using it instead of Breakthrough. He used to be a painter and knows BT.


I've recently done 2 sample doors. 1 with low voc breakthrough (which sucks) and the other with Advance Pearl finish. I then sprayed 2 coats of BM Stays Clear Acrylic Urethane
on each. Fantastic results. 
Can't say what the longevity will be, but man it was bullet proof..
I think this may be a good option for the darker colours as they do tend to stay softer and be more prone to marring.
Haven't used the Scuff x yet..


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## mug

finishesbykevyn said:


> Mr Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard of Vanex. Did PPG buy them out?
> 
> I wonder if BM Stay clear is compatible with BT?
> 
> Do you think Scuff-X would withstand hand oils? A BM store owner suggested using it instead of Breakthrough. He used to be a painter and knows BT.
> 
> 
> 
> I've recently done 2 sample doors. 1 with low voc breakthrough (which sucks) and the other with Advance Pearl finish. I then sprayed 2 coats of BM Stays Clear Acrylic Urethane
> on each. Fantastic results.
> Can't say what the longevity will be, but man it was bullet proof..
> I think this may be a good option for the darker colours as they do tend to stay softer and be more prone to marring.
> Haven't used the Scuff x yet..
Click to expand...

The General finishes milk paint dark colors do very well with clear coats. Dries quickly. Either their High perfomance poly or their better grade Enduro clear.


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## Mr Smith

finishesbykevyn said:


> I've recently done 2 sample doors. 1 with low voc breakthrough (which sucks) and the other with Advance Pearl finish. I then sprayed 2 coats of BM Stays Clear Acrylic Urethane
> on each. Fantastic results.
> Can't say what the longevity will be, but man it was bullet proof..
> I think this may be a good option for the darker colours as they do tend to stay softer and be more prone to marring.
> Haven't used the Scuff x yet..


How does the stays clear look? Does it have a plastic appearance?

Why would it matter what the quality of paint is under the 'Stays Clear' urethane? It's the top coat that is the protector. I took a course once and they were using waterborne Zenith 'Valspar Conversion Varnish' over just a white primer and it was tough as nails.

I've often wondered how the Advance manages to cure if sealed a few days later with a Urethane topcoat. I'd guess that the 'stays clear' is somewhat porous.


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## finishesbykevyn

mug said:


> The General finishes milk paint dark colors do very well with clear coats. Dries quickly. Either their High perfomance poly or their better grade Enduro clear.


3 What's the deal with that Milk paint? Is that brushed on or sprayed? What does it look like in comparison ti a regular paint?


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## finishesbykevyn

Mr Smith said:


> How does the stays clear look? Does it have a plastic appearance?
> 
> Why would it matter what the quality of paint is under the 'Stays Clear' urethane? It's the top coat that is the protector. I took a course once and they were using waterborne Zenith 'Valspar Conversion Varnish' over just a white primer and it was tough as nails.
> 
> I've often wondered how the Advance manages to cure if sealed a few days later with a Urethane topcoat. I'd guess that the 'stays clear' is somewhat porous.[/QUOTE
> 
> Exellent questions Mr. Smith. Ive been told that The Stays Clear can be applied over the Advance a day later as they are compatible products.
> However, As this was an after thought in ongoing experimenting , I personally did not apply the Stays clear until a few weeks after final cure of both products. I'm going try again after only 24 hrs for better compatibility results.
> It does of course give a bit more depth of a look. However I wouldn't say "plastic like". A little more obvious on the whites than the darker colours. I honestly thought it looked real nice.
> But good point that once you prime, and if clearcoating, why does it matter which paint you use...
> I'm going to say:
> A: Scientific compatibility
> B: If your brushing and rolling top coats on the bases, the Advance is going to flow out much better than a regular latex., but much longer recoat time...


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## mug

finishesbykevyn said:


> mug said:
> 
> 
> 
> The General finishes milk paint dark colors do very well with clear coats. Dries quickly. Either their High perfomance poly or their better grade Enduro clear.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 What's the deal with that Milk paint? Is that brushed on or sprayed? What does it look like in comparison ti a regular paint?
Click to expand...

 Brushes and sands well. Spray with hvlp. It is too expensive with airless. Has to be sealed for durability.


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## KooLayed369

Kelly-Moores water-oil hybrid paint, now called Epic, has been recently reformulated, partially to address this issue. According to my rep, Kelly Moores version never really suffered in residential use, but would see the same problems in high traffic areas such as school hand rails and such. This past year they reformulated the hybrid line (and changed the name from Urethane Modified Alkyd to Epic), and changed it to where it is more durable than before to body/hand oils, and is whiter out of the can and stays white longer.


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## finishesbykevyn

mug said:


> The General finishes milk paint dark colors do very well with clear coats. Dries quickly. Either their High perfomance poly or their better grade Enduro clear.


I imagine the milk paint is an aquired look? It's not really a solid look is it? Haven't used it myself..


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## mug

finishesbykevyn said:


> mug said:
> 
> 
> 
> The General finishes milk paint dark colors do very well with clear coats. Dries quickly. Either their High perfomance poly or their better grade Enduro clear.
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine the milk paint is an aquired look? It's not really a solid look is it? Haven't used it myself..
Click to expand...

It is not really a high build paint. Here is a picture of it going over an oak end panel. I was brushing it on to do some distressing.
It is wet so it looks glossy but dries satin.


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## mug

So I grabbed this screen shot from a Painting contractor website about his report on Breakthrough V50.


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## Mr Smith

So the secret is out----they removed the polyurethane component?

PPG bought Breakthrough and messed with the formulation. Looks like they cannot find a way to reproduce the original version's quality because it has to be VOC compliant around the world. I know California and Canada have strict VOC laws.


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## Rbriggs82

Thankfully I can still get the good stuff in my neck if the woods. 

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## cocomonkeynuts

Mr Smith said:


> So the secret is out----they removed the polyurethane component?
> 
> PPG bought Breakthrough and messed with the formulation. Looks like they cannot find a way to reproduce the original version's quality because it has to be VOC compliant around the world. I know California and Canada have strict VOC laws.





Not really a secret PPG does this with every brand they acquire. Same thing with the Sikkens brand making everything low VOC, switching to waterborne formula only, discontinuing popular colors etc.


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## canopainting

Here in Sacramento I have had good luck with SW Pro Industrial Acrylic for repaints but recently bought another finish sprayer for shooting 275 under coat and pre-catalyzed Gemini Gem Coat on new cabs. A customer bought Breakthrough last summer for me to spray some wicker furniture, as soon as I opened the can and poured it I thought it look like crap.


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## Packard

My dealer says that Breakthrough VOC50 is not recommended for cabinets.

They say that the only PPG product that is recommended for cabinets is Breakthrough VOC250.

Most of the local dealers are not stocking the VOC 250.


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## Lightningboy65

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Not really a secret PPG does this with every brand they acquire. Same thing with the Sikkens brand making everything low VOC, switching to waterborne formula only, discontinuing popular colors etc.


Did Sikkens go low VOC on Cetol DEK (or discontinue it)? If so a great product has died. I guess I'm starting to get a little out of the loop!


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## Packard

finishesbykevyn said:


> 3 What's the deal with that Milk paint? Is that brushed on or sprayed? What does it look like in comparison ti a regular paint?


GF's milk paint is rated for indoor and outdoor and is an acrylic. I painted cabinets with it using GF's recommendation of a foam brush. 

It coats well with a single application. It dries with no sags, drips or brush marks. It gives the appearance that it is sprayed on. 

However it will show scuffs and finger prints and should be top coated. It scuffs very easily and it shows up as shiny spots. It is particularly noticable on dark colors.


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## Optimal1

I called 2 PPg stores in my area inquiring about the 250 version. The first store said they could not get the paint ordered. He said the computer would not allow it and he was not going to bring in a product just for me. Called the second store in the city which dabbles in commercial and industrial. He could bring the product in and also has some on hand. I want to paint my kids bathroom cabinets in this product. Clean/ sand / and shoot it. Is the consensus good to go for cabinet painting with the 250 voc version ?


I just painted my bathroom and half bath cabinets with pigmented shellac and KA pigmented lacquer and it passed the fingernail test on day 2. But im looking for other options for the arsenal.


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## Rbriggs82

Optimal1 said:


> I called 2 PPg stores in my area inquiring about the 250 version. The first store said they could not get the paint ordered. He said the computer would not allow it and he was not going to bring in a product just for me. Called the second store in the city which dabbles in commercial and industrial. He could bring the product in and also has some on hand. I want to paint my kids bathroom cabinets in this product. Clean/ sand / and shoot it. Is the consensus good to go for cabinet painting with the 250 voc version ?
> 
> 
> I just painted my bathroom and half bath cabinets with pigmented shellac and KA pigmented lacquer and it passed the fingernail test on day 2. But im looking for other options for the arsenal.


The breakthrough will pass the fingernail test within an hour, seriously. 

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## Jmayspaint

Optimal1 said:


> I called 2 PPg stores in my area inquiring about the 250 version. The first store said they could not get the paint ordered. He said the computer would not allow it and he was not going to bring in a product just for me. Called the second store in the city which dabbles in commercial and industrial. He could bring the product in and also has some on hand. I want to paint my kids bathroom cabinets in this product. Clean/ sand / and shoot it. Is the consensus good to go for cabinet painting with the 250 voc version ?
> 
> 
> I just painted my bathroom and half bath cabinets with pigmented shellac and KA pigmented lacquer and it passed the fingernail test on day 2. But im looking for other options for the arsenal.




Several of us on here have been using the 250 for years on cabinets and I haven’t seen any complaints myself or from others. 

When you think about it, when they remove 200 VOC from a gallon of paint, that’s basically a whole different coating. They should call the 50 VOC stuff Breakthrough 2 or something. That would at least prevent potentially misleading threads like this. 


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## finishesbykevyn

Until I can find another product that brushes and sprays as nice as The BM Advance with the necessary hardness I'm sticking with it for now. I did spray a fireplace with the Scuffx the other day and was quite impressed. I'll give another report when I go back in a few days for inspection..
It's all about longevity..

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## Packard

Does anyone publish pencil hardness test results for various finishes? 

Most of the "information" on hardness seems to be annecdotal, and not the best information for decision making.

There are also standard adhesion tests that involve scoring the finish in a grid and applying some sort of tape to see if the squares lift off.


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## 360painting

I have finally got PPG to acknowledge that the Breakthrough VOC 50 while marketed as a product that will hold up to cabinet and door use. Will not... It breaks down from the oils in handling. So doors and drawers that are used often, will breakdown first. They start to get gummy and tacking and will start to rub off. They hold up very nicely when not exposed to the oils from normal use. But as we all know doors and drawers, whether it be on the kitchen cabinets, bath vanities and entry doors, they are and will be exposed to oils from ones hands. The questions is not whether they will hold up... but when will they fail?


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## 360painting

Breakthrough VOC 50 will pass the fingernail test. It will not pass the time test for normal handling. It will breakdown from the oils in our hands. It starts to get gummy and tacking, hard to clean and will rub off. The surfaces exposed to the most use will fail first. Door knobs, pulls, trash doors, and utensils drawers.


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## Woodco

People still use breakthrough?


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## Rbriggs82

360painting said:


> I have finally got PPG to acknowledge that the Breakthrough VOC 50 while marketed as a product that will hold up to cabinet and door use. Will not... It breaks down from the oils in handling. So doors and drawers that are used often, will breakdown first. They start to get gummy and tacking and will start to rub off. They hold up very nicely when not exposed to the oils from normal use. But as we all know doors and drawers, whether it be on the kitchen cabinets, bath vanities and entry doors, they are and will be exposed to oils from ones hands. The questions is not whether they will hold up... but when will they fail?


If you read the Pds for both versions of Breakthrough you'll see the 250 says it's for cabinets and the 50 does not.

I'm currently putting the 250 version to the ultimate test at my house. My cabinets, stairs, handrails, and kids bathroom vanity are all done with it.

I'm past the year mark and it's held up nicely so far. The cabinets clean easily and have yet to chip. A couple months ago we got a Springer Spaniel puppy which when getting her water she gets excited and jumps all over the lower cabinets. I cringe every time but have to see scratches or chips from it. So did chew the corner of one door, breakthrough couldn't stop that .

The stairs haven't scratched or chipped and the handrail which is done in black looks great too. I just did the kids vanity in a dark blueish grey so we'll see how that holds up long term.

They really should have called the 50voc version something else because it can be a bit misleading, however I'm still impressed with the 250.

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## mug

Yes definitely been clear coating this product since the first time I used it few years ago on a rental and noticed the sticky feeling around the pulls.


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## finishesbykevyn

mug said:


> Yes definitely been clear coating this product since the first time I used it few years ago on a rental and noticed the sticky feeling around the pulls.


So instead of using a different product, you choose to clear coat it? What are you clear coating with?


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## Mr Smith

If you are going to add a protective clear coat you can use the cheapest crap paint underneath it. The only advantage is the super fast dry time of BT. Most acrylics dry in an hour anyways.

Low VOC Breakthrough in Canada is about $62/gallon.

Save yourself some time with the clear coat. Just use Cabinet Coat or other poly blend paints and skip that step.


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## mug

General Finishes clear mostly. I am used to the Breakthrough v50. It does apply well. 
The clear gives it that ultra smooth hard finish and clients don't mind paying for it.

I have experimented with many products and will continue to do so!


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## Mr Smith

confirmation.

Another painter used the low VOC breakthrough and it has failed.

I'll leave his name out:

*"I'm doing a warranty cabinet refinish right now because I used the low v o c breakthrough. It doesn't stand up to the oils on our skin and turns to a caulk like mush."*


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## mug

I have found that most trim paints in houses are sticky around garage doors, Bathrooms and etc. Maybe if people actually cleaned their surfaces every now and then the outcome would be different? Why don't painted walls turn in to mush around light switches? 
Does anyone have specific wording in their cabinet painting contracts about chemicals, grease etc. ?


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## finishesbykevyn

The switch plate probably helps with that. I have seen it on doors. Especially in bathrooms. Problem with cabinets is that no one uses the handles. They grab by the edges of the doors.
Ive also seen it on chairs and tables from a combination of probably finger grease, chemical cleaners and UV breakdown. Im sure the lacqers and clearcoats will eventually do the same thing. 
Obviously a higher quality product will be more resistant though..



mug said:


> I have found that most trim paints in houses are sticky around garage doors, Bathrooms and etc. Maybe if people actually cleaned their surfaces every now and then the outcome would be different? Why don't painted walls turn in to mush around light switches?
> Does anyone have specific wording in their cabinet painting contracts about chemicals, grease etc. ?


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## PACman

Yeah, i kind of already knew this having sold the product for years before PPG bought them. Sometimes you just have to let people dig their own holes as my dad used to say.


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## Packard

finishesbykevyn said:


> 3 What's the deal with that Milk paint? Is that brushed on or sprayed? What does it look like in comparison ti a regular paint?


I brushed it per the manufacturer's recommendation using a foam brush. When it dries there are no runs, drips or imperfections in the surface. It looks sprayed on. It is also rated as a interior/exterior finish. 

It is not a true milk paint, but rather a modern paint made to look like milk paint. I was very pleased with the way it applied.

However I used black finish, and the milk paint scuffs easily so it required a top coat. The satin top coat made it look gray. I had to go with semi-gloss to keep the black appearance.


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## Wooster Crowe

mug said:


> General Finishes clear mostly. I am used to the Breakthrough v50. It does apply well.
> The clear gives it that ultra smooth hard finish and clients don't mind paying for it.
> 
> I have experimented with many products and will continue to do so!


I found that General Finishes High Performance of a very bright white will yellow after a few years.


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## surfsolutions

finishesbykevyn said:


> I've recently done 2 sample doors. 1 with low voc breakthrough (which sucks) and the other with Advance Pearl finish. I then sprayed 2 coats of BM Stays Clear Acrylic Urethane on each. Fantastic results. Can't say what the longevity will be, but man it was bullet proof.. I think this may be a good option for the darker colours as they do tend to stay softer and be more prone to marring. Haven't used the Scuff x yet..


 You will love the scuff x. It’s the best thing I’ve seen in 35 years of painting. Try it and you’ll never use anything else.


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## finishesbykevyn

surfsolutions said:


> You will love the scuff x. It’s the best thing I’ve seen in 35 years of painting. Try it and you’ll never use anything else.


 Thanks. This is a 4 yr. old thread fyi so kind of old news now.. Have used plenty of scuffX and yes is a fantastic product. Although I still have not heard confirmation on hand oil longevity..


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## surfsolutions

finishesbykevyn said:


> Thanks. This is a 4 yr. old thread fyi so kind of old news now.. Have used plenty of scuffX and yes is a fantastic product. Although I still have not heard confirmation on hand oil longevity..


Using Scuff-X at a Hospital I work at after 35 years of being a small contractor doing mostly residential work. This paint is holding up on doors and frames that were needing done every 6-8 months with other products. I have the satin on my cabinets at home and after 1 1/2 years no issues at all.


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