# Question one



## Paintergal78 (Jan 30, 2018)

Do you believe painters get respect? Are they the scum of the contracting business?


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Great first question......almost think of trolling.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Yes, of course painters get respect. Image is everything. If you don’t get respect maybe you need to think of the image you project to your base, otherwise get a better class of customer.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paintergal78 said:


> Do you believe painters get respect? Are they the scum of the contracting business?


No. I don't believe painters get the respect they deserve. And part of the reasons, are the weak industry standards and the range of costs for a paint job. It makes it difficult to respect a painting contractor who charges plumbing or electrical prices when Sammy's Painting and Fishing Tackle charges Subway Sandwich prices.

And to justify costs, you have to claim to do only high end work. And just about every painter seems to only work for "high end" clients. I don't think the paint service industry really works like that.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Yes, of course painters get respect. Immage is everything. If you don’t get respect maybe you need to think of the immage you project to your base, otherwise get a better class of customer.




That's it right there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hey now! Cousin Eddie can slam a sixer in 30 seconds flat and still paint a room for a case! Now if that doesn't deserve respect what does?


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cousin Eddie*



PACman said:


> Hey now! Cousin Eddie can slam a sixer in 30 seconds flat and still paint a room for a case! Now if that doesn't deserve respect what does?


PAC, this reminds me of going on an exterior estimate with my partner a couple of years ago. While we were talking with the HO, he mentioned that he had gotten an estimate from a painter based in one of the wealthiest suburbs in the Chicago area. This painter told the HO that he charges 100.00 per hour. Then the HO told us that he was also getting a quote from a family member who lived in one of the poorest suburbs of Chicago. Having heard him say this, I should have just told him then and there that there is no way I could compete with a family member who lives in one of the lowest per capita income places in the Chicago area. That is who ended up doing the work, so next time I probably will take a pass on finishing the walk-around with the HO, let alone giving a printed out estimate!

futtyos


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> PAC, this reminds me of going on an exterior estimate with my partner a couple of years ago. While we were talking with the HO, he mentioned that he had gotten an estimate from a painter based in one of the wealthiest suburbs in the Chicago area. This painter told the HO that he charges 100.00 per hour. Then the HO told us that he was also getting a quote from a family member who lived in one of the poorest suburbs of Chicago. Having heard him say this, I should have just told him then and there that there is no way I could compete with a family member who lives in one of the lowest per capita income places in the Chicago area. That is who ended up doing the work, so next time I probably will take a pass on finishing the walk-around with the HO, let alone giving a printed out estimate!
> 
> futtyos


Yeah cousin Eddie worked over the Chicagoland area a few years ago. Made a few grand and took his act on the road again. Last i heard he was working the Tampa/St. Petersburg rubes over now.


----------



## kerryman71 (Oct 9, 2017)

Damn, I thought drywall guys were!!

John


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> And to justify costs, you have to claim to do only high end work. And just about every painter seems to only work for "high end" clients. I don't think the paint service industry really works like that.


most my clients are "high end", its nothing to brag about lol


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vylum said:


> most my clients are "high end", its nothing to brag about lol


"High end", means "high maintenance", if you get what I mean?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> most my clients are "high end", its nothing to brag about lol


I suppose you're right. Some of the worst customers I've painted for were wealthy. The farther up they are, the farther down they look at you. Because at the end of the day you're still just painting.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Painting is an exercise in self respect. As long as you keep organized and present yourself with competence and humility, it doesn't matter what other people think.

In a trade that can easily get out of control, in terms of creating a mess, it's important to be neat. Even a good painter can give the perception of sloppiness just by having paint on their clothes. Unlike other trades where dust can easily be wiped off. Even roofers are at least out of sight for most of their work.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I've heard more than one GC blatanly proclaim "I f***ing hate you painters"


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I suppose you're right. Some of the worst customers I've painted for were wealthy. The farther up they are, the farther down they look at you. Because at the end of the day you're still just painting.


It really depends on who they are though. I've worked for some rich folks who were complete idiots and some who were absolutely wonderful to work for. The woman I'm working for right now seems to have endless amounts of money she loves to give to me. This is the third major project I've worked on for her. She's great to work for other than the fact that sometimes it seems like she can tell you're about to evacuate, then she just finds more stuff for you to paint.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I've heard more than one GC blatanly proclaim "I f***ing hate you painters"


Holy crap. I'd be packing up my stuff at that point. "Find someone else" kind of thing. You'd have to imagine that situation is never going to end well. Obviously they've had some bad things happen historically.


----------



## kerryman71 (Oct 9, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It really depends on who they are though. I've worked for some rich folks who were complete idiots and some who were absolutely wonderful to work for. The woman I'm working for right now seems to have endless amounts of money she loves to give to me. This is the third major project I've worked on for her. She's great to work for other than the fact that sometimes it seems like she can tell you're about to evacuate, then she just finds more stuff for you to paint.


Most of my work is for people who certainly aren't struggling, but only one I can think of that I'd throw in the "rich" category. I met her husband once when I went to look at the job, and only communicated with her from that point on. When I gave her the price, she barely blinked and asked when I could start.

When I was starting the work, I had her look at some issues that were never going to be fixed, due to the original construction, or paint splatter on areas that I wanted her to know wasn't from me. She just kept saying not to worry about it, that she knew I'd do a good job. I told her that I didn't want her thinking it's from me, or if she showed someone my work, them thinking I was a hack or something. 

Her adult daughter was staying with them for the holidays, and both her and her mother were great. They were so laid back and talkative, almost like they were interested in my life story. Talked about my son, family, etc. I really enjoyed working there, and the money was never an issue. She always asked if I was sure it was enough.

John


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It really depends on who they are though. I've worked for some rich folks who were complete idiots and some who were absolutely wonderful to work for. The woman I'm working for right now seems to have endless amounts of money she loves to give to me. This is the third major project I've worked on for her. She's great to work for other than the fact that sometimes it seems like she can tell you're about to evacuate, then she just finds more stuff for you to paint.


If only those jobs, and people, were sustainable. For the most part, they're like what Woodco describes. It's my guess that eighty percent of the population either pities painters, hates painters, or are just indifferent to their existence. Meanwhile every cousin Eddie on the planet is clamoring for the other twenty percent's business.

But the secret is, painting is a pretty easy vocation to sustain, in and of itself, if you can tolerate people's misconceptions of painters and not try to change them into thinking painters are something special. I've made a pretty comfortable living being a humble painter and could care less what others think.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> If only those jobs, and people, were sustainable. For the most part, they're like what Woodco describes. It's my guess that eighty percent of the population either pities painters, hates painters, or are just indifferent to their existence. Meanwhile every cousin Eddie on the planet is clamoring for the other twenty percent's business.
> 
> But the secret is, painting is a pretty easy vocation to sustain, in and of itself, if you can tolerate people's misconceptions of painters and not try to change them into thinking painters are something special. I've made a pretty comfortable living being a humble painter and could care less what others think.


I certainly won't say I happen upon them all the time, but I really love working for those 20% who appreciate painters. I know what you mean though. As long as these folks keep buying properties, I'll keep painting for them.

The others, I'll know where I stand and go from there. Sometimes it's ugly and you'll just be under appreciated. C'est la vie.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> If only those jobs, and people, were sustainable. For the most part, they're like what Woodco describes. It's my guess that eighty percent of the population either pities painters, hates painters, or are just indifferent to their existence. Meanwhile every cousin Eddie on the planet is clamoring for the other twenty percent's business.
> 
> But the secret is, painting is a pretty easy vocation to sustain, in and of itself, if you can tolerate people's misconceptions of painters and not try to change them into thinking painters are something special. I've made a pretty comfortable living being a humble painter and could care less what others think.


Maybe I’m just insensitive but don’t recall ever feeling pitied or hated for being a painter. Indifference? Maybe - but ask me if I care. 
Honestly, I don’t think that what we do engenders any strong opinions or emotions in anyone - except maybe happiness when the job is completed and we clear out.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

If you're not feeling respected you've got the wrong boss or the wrong customer!
I am truly grateful for the customer base we have. Very seldom have I run into a bad apple. The 1 we did run into a few years ago.. we fired that customer, and paid him $500 to find somebody else!
Ya just gotta listen to that "spidey sense" and if it doesn't feel like a good fit, move on. It's easy to get desperate and take on anything that'll pay the bills. Sometimes ya have to, but if it's avoidable, those jobs are tail chasers. Our custoners appreciate us and are grateful that every detail is looked after, their home is beautiful and all they have to do is write a check and stay outta the way!


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> If you're not feeling respected you've got the wrong boss or the wrong customer!
> I am truly grateful for the customer base we have. Very seldom have I run into a bad apple. The 1 we did run into a few years ago.. we fired that customer, and paid him $500 to find somebody else!
> Ya just gotta listen to that "spidey sense" and if it doesn't feel like a good fit, move on. It's easy to get desperate and take on anything that'll pay the bills. Sometimes ya have to, but if it's avoidable, those jobs are tail chasers. Our custoners appreciate us and are grateful that every detail is looked after, their home is beautiful and all they have to do is write a check and stay outta the way!
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be in this business for over forty years if I didn't learn how to make it work for me. But then again, the last twenty five of those years does not include working for residential general contractors, or homeowners, with the exception of those gawd awful side jobs I used to take on.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Maybe I’m just insensitive but don’t recall ever feeling pitied or hated for being a painter. Indifference? Maybe - but ask me if I care.
> Honestly, I don’t think that what we do engenders any strong opinions or emotions in anyone - except maybe happiness when the job is completed and we clear out.


Maybe it's because I work so closely with just about every trade known to man, every day, that I sense none of them wish they were in my shoes.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Maybe it's because I work so closely with just about every trade known to man, every day, that I sense none of them wish they were in my shoes.


This is very true. Between homeowners and other trades one of the most common phrases I hear is "I hate painting". My immediate response is "Good to hear!"


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> This is very true. Between homeowners and other trades one of the most common phrases I hear is "I hate painting". My immediate response is "Good to hear!"


It takes a certain character to rise above the negative connotations directed at painters. And there are plenty of them. Sometimes directly, but mostly passively. It took me a number of years to not be affected by them. But I've finally settled in to appreciating my primary skill set. I'm actually a little sad I may be changing my job classification.


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Honestly, the least respect comes from the other trades. Always been that way and probably always will. Part of the problem is we’re talking about a trade that doesn’t require any certification to be a legit painter. Many states don’t require licensing for painters. I know and you know what a wealth of knowledge it takes and how physically demanding the job is,and if done right, is a reflection of true craftsmanship. But to other tradesman, on the totem pole of trades, were ranked at the bottom.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

loaded brush said:


> Honestly, the least respect comes from the other trades. Always been that way and probably always will. Part of the problem is we’re talking about a trade that doesn’t require any certification to be a legit painter. Many states don’t require licensing for painters. I know and you know what a wealth of knowledge it takes and how physically demanding the job is,and if done right, is a reflection of true craftsmanship. But to other tradesman, on the totem pole of trades, were ranked at the bottom.


Sad but true. Many times I've had a carpenter grab his circ saw and make a cut right beside my paint tray filling it with saw dust. Electrician walks in boots covered in muck and mud, thinks nothing of wiping them off on my drop sheets. Flooring guys have their hardwood piled 6" away from an unpainted wall when there was no reason it couldn't be placed in the center of the room.

Over the years, I think I've just developed a very harsh approach to dealing with this kind of thing. Blunt, ruthless, uncensored honesty delivered without concern for the others feelings or who else hears you saying something. I will say it really makes you appreciate a GC who works hard to prevent this kind of thing.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

loaded brush said:


> Honestly, the least respect comes from the other trades. Always been that way and probably always will. Part of the problem is we’re talking about a trade that doesn’t require any certification to be a legit painter. Many states don’t require licensing for painters. I know and you know what a wealth of knowledge it takes and how physically demanding the job is,and if done right, is a reflection of true craftsmanship. But to other tradesman, on the totem pole of trades, were ranked at the bottom.


That's pretty much a clear summary of what I've been expressing since I became a member here. But more importantly, is how career painters overcome this trade bigotry. 

Too often, a painter, or painting contractor, compensates this known trade bigotry by being overly cocky, flashy, and even Prima Donnish. For example, you'll see a painting contractor rolling up on a job site, in a suburban setting, driving a ridiculously lifted F250 pick up with a lumber rack on job sites that typically require no more than a six foot step ladder. But hey, if the carpenter gets to drive one, so can I. 

Meanwhile, the humble painter rolls up in his neatly stocked and sensible E250 Van, knowing he's not going to get attention, but will certainly complete a job in an efficient manner.

It really takes a certain character to reap the rewards painting can offer for the long haul.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I wouldn't be in this business for over forty years if I didn't learn how to make it work for me. But then again, the last twenty five of those years does not include working for residential general contractors, or homeowners, with the exception of those gawd awful side jobs I used to take on.


I work directly for a residential GC. We only sub out major stuff. Everything else is in-house. I couldn't be happier! Wayyy better and more diverse. For that, I am grateful.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I LOVE painters! Especially the ones who pay cash!


----------



## P-nutt (Jan 24, 2018)

Working as a project manager I discovered that the trades must hated are painters and floor contractors, that is because usually when painters are working no other trade can work especially on interior jobs. The other complain is that everyone has to be more careful about not creating dust.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

P-nutt said:


> Working as a project manager I discovered that the trades must hated are painters and floor contractors, that is because usually when painters are working no other trade can work especially on interior jobs. The other complain is that everyone has to be more careful about not creating dust.


That's a great perspective. It's like other trades have to tip toe around the painter if they choose to work on site when the painters are there. Or, they have to wait until the painter gets done. I can't blame the other trades for getting agitated. 

And a lot of times, painters won't take the time and effort to isolate their work spaces from the other trades. There are a number of ways to do this. It takes a willingness of the painter to cooperate and communicate in a way that allows them to do their work without holding up the entire show. But given the often narrow profit margins within limited time frames, the painters are typically going to rush in and rush out.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> That's a great perspective. It's like other trades have to tip toe around the painter if they choose to work on site when the painters are there. Or, they have to wait until the painter gets done. I can't blame the other trades for getting agitated.
> 
> And a lot of times, painters won't take the time and effort to isolate their work spaces from the other trades. There are a number of ways to do this. It takes a willingness of the painter to cooperate and communicate in a way that allows them to do their work without holding up the entire show. But given the often narrow profit margins within limited time frames, the painters are typically going to rush in and rush out.


And your last observation is squarely on the shoulders of the GC in my opinion. As painters, we understand our time requirements and can only share those as part of the scheduling process. Painters can’t be blamed for the fact that dust and other items will spoil the finish of our product. So, we tell the GC when we need to have the space to ourselves and it’s up to them to arrange it. It’s when they disregard that request and schedule multiple subs during the painting that issues arise. And then the GCs wonder why our time on site is longer than we told them it would be. :vs_mad:


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I've found you can make arrangements all you want, ultimately the GC's I've worked for end up saying stuff like "Nah, this other guys a priority deal with it", or "Thing's gotta keep moving, deal with it." Then when things get scuffed up or whatever, people make jokes about it saying "Don't worry, Bill will fix that."


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Typically, I‘ve found that the GCs I’ve worked for(the remodeling variety - no NC) are pretty respectful of my need to have a disturbance free work area. They are usually so glad to have someone other than themselves or one of their guys doing it that they treat us pretty well. 
The thing I dislike the most about working with contractors is being tied to their schedule. Just too spoiled having it be just me and the HO I guess and don’t like feeling that I’m just another one of their employees.


----------



## P-nutt (Jan 24, 2018)

The GC dose have a lot to do but the trades are also to blame for alot.

One of my last jobs as a project manager we did a 45000 sq ft office renovation. The paint contractor asked to do his job before the drop ceiling grid was installed to save time by not having to cut-in all around the grid. I explain to him that it will not be possible because the ceiling tile was a new product very soft and creates a lot of dust. He decided to call my boss and complain about it. I was overrule and he painted the walls. After the carpenters install the grid and ceiling tile. I call the paint contractor to come back and touch up some spots. All he did was complain about the work been extra because the carpenters made a mess, and the usual bs about not having time. In the end because I was overrule I let my boss and him work it out.

By the way, after that I never accepted a bid from that contractor as long as I work for that company


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

P-nutt said:


> The GC dose have a lot to do but the trades are also to blame for alot.
> 
> One of my last jobs as a project manager we did a 45000 sq ft office renovation. The paint contractor asked to do his job before the drop ceiling grid was installed to save time by not having to cut-in all around the grid. I explain to him that it will not be possible because the ceiling tile was a new product very soft and creates a lot of dust. He decided to call my boss and complain about it. I was overrule and he painted the walls. After the carpenters install the grid and ceiling tile. I call the paint contractor to come back and touch up some spots. All he did was complain about the work been extra because the carpenters made a mess, and the usual bs about not having time. In the end because I was overrule I let my boss and him work it out.
> 
> By the way, after that I never accepted a bid from that contractor as long as I work for that company


As a painter, I often see the unreasonable urgency to get in first, painters will put on things like you describe, only to find they have to come back for touch ups.. 

1. *"We need to get in before the floor guys!" *No we don't. That's why they make drop clothes. 

2. *"We need to paint the walls before you install the drop ceiling!"* No we don't. That's why they make Corona brushes. And besides, the installers always mar the walls. And we all know what it's like touching up a sprayed finish.

3.* "We need to take all the doors off in order to paint them!"* No we don't. Why handle doors so much when they're designed to be hung by a competent installer and left alone? Just so they can be sprayed out in a garage?

4. *"We need to paint all the trim before it's installed!" *No we don't. Especially if we don't have a shop. What, you think the GC wants all kinds of space taken up on a jobsite just for the painters? And again, we'll have to go touch them up anyways. 

5. *"We need to paint the walls before the cabinets are installed!" *No we don't. Paint is not going to significantly improve the fire rating of bare joint compound. Let the cabinet and counter installers do their thing. They shouldn't have to tip toe around a painted wall that will need touch up anyways.

For a non critical trade, painters sure make a big deal about everything.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm given cause to wonder if Paintergal78 will ever know the stimulating conversation she started by asking if painters are the scum of the trades. On a website for painters. lol


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> As a painter, I often see the unreasonable urgency to get in first, painters will put on things like you describe, only to find they have to come back for touch ups..
> 
> 1. *"We need to get in before the floor guys!" *No we don't. That's why they make drop clothes.
> 
> ...


But many of those needs are price driven. Sure, they can be done differently, but if a GC is concerned about cost (and I’ve yet to meet one who wasn’t), then certain methods or sequences for doing a job will be cheaper. As long as we know what the situatuion is going to be so we can bid accordingly then fine. It’s when we bid a room for painting with no cabinets and then suddenly there they are that problems ensue. To a certain degree, success for me in my business is defined by feeling just fine being able to say FU to someone trying to screw me over so I have no issues with increasing my price when the situatuion changes - but some guys might.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

P-nutt said:


> The GC dose have a lot to do but the trades are also to blame for alot.
> 
> One of my last jobs as a project manager we did a 45000 sq ft office renovation. The paint contractor asked to do his job before the drop ceiling grid was installed to save time by not having to cut-in all around the grid. I explain to him that it will not be possible because the ceiling tile was a new product very soft and creates a lot of dust. He decided to call my boss and complain about it. I was overrule and he painted the walls. After the carpenters install the grid and ceiling tile. I call the paint contractor to come back and touch up some spots. All he did was complain about the work been extra because the carpenters made a mess, and the usual bs about not having time. In the end because I was overrule I let my boss and him work it out.
> 
> By the way, after that I never accepted a bid from that contractor as long as I work for that company


i think the gc should at least allow the painter to roll colour before the grid, finishing the walls before the grid might be a bit ambitious. sounds like poor planning


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> But many of those needs are price driven. Sure, they can be done differently, but if a GC is concerned about cost (and I’ve yet to meet one who wasn’t), then certain methods or sequences for doing a job will be cheaper. As long as we know what the situatuion is going to be so we can bid accordingly then fine. It’s when we bid a room for painting with no cabinets and then suddenly there they are that problems ensue. To a certain degree, success for me in my business is defined by feeling just fine being able to say FU to someone trying to screw me over so I have no issues with increasing my price when the situatuion changes - but some guys might.


There's no good reason why 99% of a job couldn't be performed after all construction is completed and all other trades have vacated. There would be a lot less touch up debates to have to deal with for one, and less chance for change orders. New construction could be approached exactly like a typical residential repaint if general contractors trusted the painters to be left alone. And, didn't have a need to coordinate a job where everyone enters the finish line all at once.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> There's no good reason why 99% of a job couldn't be performed after all construction is completed and all other trades have vacated. There would be a lot less touch up debates to have to deal with for one, and less chance for change orders. New construction could be approached exactly like a typical residential repaint if general contractors trusted the painters to be left alone. And, didn't have a need to coordinate a job where everyone enters the finish line all at once.


you make a good point but going a bit far. base and ceilings would take alot longer with a floor in


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> you make a good point but going a bit far. base and ceilings would take alot longer with a floor in


One eight hour man day to protect all floors in a 2,000 sf home along with minimal material costs. Is that really going to make or break a job opportunity?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Painting is not designed to be performed amidst the fog of construction.

Good tag line if anybody wants it. I'm charitable like that..


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> One eight hour man day to protect all floors in a 2,000 sf home along with minimal material costs. Is that really going to make or break a job opportunity?


lots of owners would hate the idea of dragging a messy sprayer in to a brand new home. most of them dont like us using a finished sink for darn sakes


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> There's no good reason why 99% of a job couldn't be performed after all construction is completed and all other trades have vacated. There would be a lot less touch up debates to have to deal with for one, and less chance for change orders. New construction could be approached exactly like a typical residential repaint if general contractors trusted the painters to be left alone. And, didn't have a need to coordinate a job where everyone enters the finish line all at once.


Again, the only good reason is cost. As we all well know it’s easier to paint many areas before some things go in. Easier equals lower price. If the GC wants to pay the higher amount for having the painting all done at the end - then fine. I’m totally on board. But many don’t. Out here where texture abounds, touching up after cabinets, flooring, trim, etc., are in is pretty straightforward so we always factor X amount of time for minor touch ups to be done at the very end. Never have encountered a problem doing it that way. And as far as doing NC after everything is in, I can’t even begin to fathom how much more difficult (and expensive) that would be than doing it the way it’s done these days.

I can’t speak for others, but I won’t throw anything in for free on a job (such as the eight hours of prep you mentioned in another post). Either pay me for what you want done or find someone else. IMO, thinking otherwise, and acting ourselves as if our time isn’t worth something, only strengthens any possible perception among GCs and other trades that we aren’t worthy of respect and shouldn’t be treated as professionals. If we don’t stand up for ourselves, then why should we expect anyone else to do it for us?


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

If I could personally change one thing about the painting industry - it would be to eliminate the practice of giving free bids. Having all painters charge a minimum of $100/bid, to be applied towards the job if the bid is accepted, would do tons to eliminate the tire kickers and others out there who have no hesitation about wasting our time. No more HOs getting five bids for painting just the walls in a 12x10 bedroom (actually ran into that one time :vs_mad.


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

RH said:


> If I could personally change one thing about the painting industry - it would be to eliminate the practice of giving free bids. Having all painters charge a minimum of $100/bid, to be applied towards the job if the bid is accepted, would do tons to eliminate the tire kickers and others out there who have no hesitation about wasting our time. No more HOs getting five bids for painting just the walls in a 12x10 bedroom (actually ran into that one time :vs_mad.


I looked at a job a couple of years ago in which the woman told me that she had gotten several bids already. Big red flag. The house was all white...including the carpet...which I did not want to deal with. To top it all off, she had forgotten that she had even made an appointment with me to look at the house. I found a quick way to get out. The house had lead, and I told her it would be very expensive for me to do the work. She did not like the sound of that, so I did not even bother to give her an estimate.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I looked at a job a couple of years ago in which the woman told me that she had gotten several bids already. Big red flag. The house was all white...including the carpet...which I did not want to deal with. To top it all off, she had forgotten that she had even made an appointment with me to look at the house. I found a quick way to get out. The house had lead, and I told her it would be very expensive for me to do the work. She did not like the sound of that, so I did not even bother to give her an estimate.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


I can remember one from waaaay back in my starting days; bidding an exterior and the HO (an elderly lady with an expression on her face indicative of someone who hadn’t had her stewed prunes for over a week) was following me around already bitching about stuff I had even looked at yet - telling me how I was to do this and do that. I thought to myself if she was that unpleasant when I was just there to do a bid, what would she be like if I was actually doing the job? I gave her a price that probably had the same effect as a triple ration of the prunes would have. Anyway, never heard from her again - whew.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Again, the only good reason is cost. As we all well know it’s easier to paint many areas before some things go in. Easier equals lower price. If the GC wants to pay the higher amount for having the painting all done at the end - then fine. I’m totally on board. But many don’t. Out here where texture abounds, touching up after cabinets, flooring, trim, etc., are in is pretty straightforward so we always factor X amount of time for minor touch ups to be done at the very end. Never have encountered a problem doing it that way. And as far as doing NC after everything is in, I can’t even begin to fathom how much more difficult (and expensive) that would be than doing it the way it’s done these days.
> 
> *I can’t speak for others, but I won’t throw anything in for free on a job (such as the eight hours of prep you mentioned in another post). *Either pay me for what you want done or find someone else. IMO, thinking otherwise, and acting ourselves as if our time isn’t worth something, only strengthens any possible perception among GCs and other trades that we aren’t worthy of respect and shouldn’t be treated as professionals. If we don’t stand up for ourselves, then why should we expect anyone else to do it for us?


The comment you're referring to was supposed to suggest that charging an extra eight man hours for protecting floors, shouldn't make the difference in getting the job or not.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> lots of owners would hate the idea of dragging a messy sprayer in to a brand new home. most of them dont like us using a finished sink for darn sakes


It's certainly easier to spray where there's unfinished floors. But it can also be a pain with all of the dust. The point is, painting can be done in a finished home without much more effort than covering floors, cabinets and fixtures. 

Once you've wrapped the place, you own it and can roll right through it at your own pace. And with the knowledge that only you will create the need for touch up, if any.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> The comment you're referring to was supposed to suggest that charging an extra eight man hours for protecting floors, shouldn't make the difference in getting the job or not.


I took it to mean that not charging for it shouldn’t keep one from going after the job (throw it in as a freebie). As to whether charging more because of it would keep one from getting it, hopefully not. But I guess that would depend on other factors.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It's certainly easier to spray where there's unfinished floors. But it can also be a pain with all of the dust. The point is, painting can be done in a finished home without much more effort than covering floors, cabinets and fixtures.
> 
> Once you've wrapped the place, you own it and can roll right through it at your own pace. And with the knowledge that only you will create the need for touch up, if any.


I know that when I’ve had to spray in an existing home the masking off is by far the more labor intensive aspect of it. Once you get to spraying things go pretty quick. 
Not doing new construction myself, I wonder what the estimate would really be for increased time spent on masking everything off for spraying the ceilings and walls in an otherwise finished home compared with the time spent to prep using the traditional process? Maybe someone who does a lot of NC work could chime in.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I breifly worked for a company who thought they would save themselves the trouble of touch up, by waiting until the entire house was done before painting. The company I wokred for 'loaned' us to this company for a week when we were slow. I can attest, that it literally takes close to three times the man hours to do it this way, and the paint job isnt quite as good either. This was the same house, that one of us could do in four days, that took three of us three days to get done. The company owner was like "See? Now we dont need to worry about touch up." 

Our method was: 

Day one: one guy masks windows, sprays the walls and lids in the whole house.
Trim gets put up
Day two: One guy. Caulk, putty, mask where needed, pull doors, prime trim.
Day three: Sand trim, paint doors, topcoat trim, thin wall paint with a lot of water, use a block brush around the jambs to turn the walls back into flat white.
Day four:touch up.

Note: Two story houses have an extra day doing trim, so five days total.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> It's certainly easier to spray where there's unfinished floors. But it can also be a pain with all of the dust. The point is, painting can be done in a finished home without much more effort than covering floors, cabinets and fixtures.
> 
> 
> 
> Once you've wrapped the place, you own it and can roll right through it at your own pace. And with the knowledge that only you will create the need for touch up, if any.




What about finish electric? Would you really wrap every new light fixture, can light and switch plate? That seems nuts. 

I can see waiting till after the floor is finished depending on the type of floor, but if it’s traditionally finished hardwood covering a fresh finish is problematic. You would likely have to wait two weeks or longer not to void the floor finishers warranty, and even then it’s risky. I have done one new house where we went in after the rough sanding, staining and sealing. All that was to be done to the floors after we finished was a light sand and couple top coats. That worked pretty good but there was still floor guys in the space after we finished it. Pre finished hardwood or vinyl plank is different. 

Ive waited till real close to the end to paint and waited till the very end to roll the final finish on the walls. Hard to imagine not even starting painting till after the toilets are in, among the other things I mentioned, though. Doesn’t seem practical at all. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yep, I have to imagine that for the most part if pre-painting most stuff is the way it's done almost all of the time there's a very good reason for that. I'd rather deal with SOME touchups from trade damage than having to overboard protecting new electrical fixtures, plumbing, floors, cabinets etc. on new construction.

On existing, that's life and you just deal with it. Can't imagine dealing with the pressure from GCs on new construction to get stuff done alongside the scrutiny of making sure everything remains pristine.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Sixteen man hours protecting floors, cabinets, and fixtures on a 2,500 sf home. Is that going to really make the difference in getting a job or not? Especially given that the painter has full control of the space. From start to finish? I mean, all we're talking about here is masking. Something that a fifteen dollar an hour cousin, son, daughter, grandmother, or homeless person could do. 

Again, too big of a deal placed on the painter getting in first. I mean, it's great if you can, but don't complain about the other trades getting in your way, or the GC yanking your chain. Because at the end of the day, the painter will always be the least priority on a construction project, until the final days requiring painting.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> What about finish electric? Would you really wrap every new light fixture, can light and switch plate? That seems nuts.
> 
> I can see waiting till after the floor is finished depending on the type of floor, but if it’s traditionally finished hardwood covering a fresh finish is problematic. You would likely have to wait two weeks or longer not to void the floor finishers warranty, and even then it’s risky. I have done one new house where we went in after the rough sanding, staining and sealing. All that was to be done to the floors after we finished was a light sand and couple top coats. That worked pretty good but there was still floor guys in the space after we finished it. Pre finished hardwood or vinyl plank is different.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much how we do it. Floor guys sand stain and seal and we bag it, drop a color coat and finish the lids then boogie till the end. Floor guys buzz back through and we punch it. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Sixteen man hours protecting floors, cabinets, and fixtures on a 2,500 sf home. Is that going to really make the difference in getting a job or not? Especially given that the painter has full control of the space. From start to finish? I mean, all we're talking about here is masking. Something that a fifteen dollar an hour cousin, son, daughter, grandmother, or homeless person could do.
> 
> Again, too big of a deal placed on the painter getting in first. I mean, it's great if you can, but don't complain about the other trades getting in your way, or the GC yanking your chain. Because at the end of the day, the painter will always be the least priority on a construction project, until the final days requiring painting.


Though obviously concept of masking is fairly straightforward, like anything in painting, the devil is in the details. I do occasionally have to do some interior spray work and although I never have undertake masking an entire interior, I still have an inkling if what it would be like to do so. A poor job of masking could add more hours of touch up and paint removal after spraying is completed than the touch up would following the traditional process. And heaven forbid the tape and plastic should pull away unnoticed on a section of new carpet.

Although I know you were exaggerating when you stated anyone could mask, just making that comment has to make me wonder if you have ever had to mask off in an existing home in order to spray. I can’t help but think that if you have, you wouldn’t be quite so dismissive of what it takes to do a good job.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

In Austin, the GC's do hardwood floors early in the construction phase, so they have them covered with Ramboard before I do anything.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> In Austin, the GC's do hardwood floors early in the construction phase, so they have them covered with Ramboard before I do anything.


A couple of likes from the skeptics. I'm impressed!


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Though obviously concept of masking is fairly straightforward, like anything in painting, the devil is in the details. I do occasionally have to do some interior spray work and although I never have undertake masking an entire interior, I still have an inkling if what it would be like to do so. A poor job of masking could add more hours of touch up and paint removal after spraying is completed than the touch up would following the traditional process. And heaven forbid the tape and plastic should pull away unnoticed on a section of new carpet.
> 
> Although I know you were exaggerating when you stated anyone could mask, just making that comment has to make me wonder if you have ever had to mask off in an existing home in order to spray. I can’t help but think that if you have, you wouldn’t be quite so dismissive of what it takes to do a good job.


Considering how many dropped ceilings and rubber cove bases I've had to mask, or cut in against, I'd say I have a respectable amount of experience when it comes to protecting surfaces from paint and overspray. And here's another thing, why does everything need to be sprayed when it's back rolled anyways? 

Frankly, no one here has provided a good enough argument why a painter can't paint an interior structure once floors are finished, cabinets are installed, and fixtures are in place. Bottom line, painters don't want the responsibility of protecting things. Because it's extra work. And gawd forbid you compromise a narrow bid by including a few extra hours needed for protecting surfaces. lol


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Frankly, no one here has provided a good enough argument why a painter can't paint an interior structure once floors are finished, cabinets are installed, and fixtures are in place. Bottom line, painters don't want the responsibility of protecting things. Because it's extra work. And gawd forbid you compromise a narrow bid by including a few extra hours needed for protecting surfaces. lol



The argument is easily made as its one of efficiency. 

True enough that if a painting contractor is in a situation where no trust in a GC’s ability to run an efficient job exists, and no cooperation between the trades can be relied upon, then a stand alone system like you describe might be called for. 

The thing is, there are a lot of GC’s out there who have building systems that rely on efficient cooperation between the trades. I would say directing that very thing is the whole job of a GC. 

Is it more efficient for the painter to finish the walls before the electricians put the switch plates on or to have the painters following the electrician either removing the switch plates or masking them? 

The GC who can coordinate doing a job in proper sequence will gain market advantage over the one who has people doing superfluous work to accommodate a lack of coordination. 

I mean, how many of you PT’ers have purposefully started a NC job after the switch plates were on and the toilets in? Anybody? 

It’s not that it can’t be done. It’s that it isn’t done because it’s obviously inefficient. And inefficient systems don’t survive long in the free market. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Frankly, no one here has provided a good enough argument why a painter can't paint an interior structure once floors are finished, cabinets are installed, and fixtures are in place. Bottom line, painters don't want the responsibility of protecting things. Because it's extra work. And gawd forbid you compromise a narrow bid by including a few extra hours needed for protecting surfaces. lol




Nor have you presented a good argument as to why it should be done. 

Avoiding unnecessary work is the goal of every contractor out there. Unless your in the union, or on a government job perhaps. 
The market dictates that a practical contractor should exclude something as silly as following an electrician around wrapping all his work in plastic if at all possible. It’s an absurd proposition. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> The argument is easily made as its one of efficiency.
> 
> True enough that if a painting contractor is in a situation where no trust in a GC’s ability to run an efficient job exists, and no cooperation between the trades can be relied upon, then a stand alone system like you describe might be called for.
> 
> ...


Some of us are just out of the box thinkers. And will removing face plates, or painting around a toilet, add that much of an impact on a painters bottom line? If it does, they have serious problems with logistics. I mean, how many here remove face plates on a residential repaint? Does it take that long? And with the toilets in, at least you don't have to use the out house. 

As far as efficiency, it's much more efficient to paint without other trades in the space. And it reduces the need to double back in order to paint something else. Which always occurs when a painter is running around in the middle of construction zone like a circus act.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Some of us are just out of the box thinkers. And will removing face plates, or painting around a toilet, add that much of an impact on a painters bottom line? If it does, they have serious problems with logistics. I mean, how many here remove face plates on a residential repaint? Does it take that long?
> 
> As far as efficiency, it's much more efficient to paint without other trades in the space. And it reduces the need to double back in order to paint something else. Which always occurs when a painter is running around in the middle of construction zone like a circus act.




Well maybe. Doesn’t seem like a great idea to me, but who knows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Well maybe. Doesn’t seem like a great idea to me, but who knows.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The moral of the story is to just yield to the GC when they tell you to wait. It's not the end of the world if you don't get in first. It's the nature of the new construction beast. We're all expert maskers, just do your thing.

Have I made any new friends today? lol!


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> The moral of the story is to just yield to the GC when they tell you to wait. It's not the end of the world if you don't get in first. It's the nature of the new construction beast. We're all expert maskers, just do your thing.
> 
> Have I made any new friends today? lol!


So you think we should just cave in and have our job take over twice as long as we bid it for, because the GC cant do stuff in order? We do our bids with a certain expectation.

Personally, I have a sit down with the GC so we can lay down the order of operations. And its states such in my contract. If he tells me everything has to be done before paint, my labor bid doubles. Its far more than "a few extra hours."

Like I said, I know for an absolute fact that masking everything and painting it after its done takes over twice as long, not including masking materials. Why should we make half as much money as we should? If we assume we have to do it the hard way, and bid accordingly, we will lose jobs.

What I dont mind doing, is at the very least prime, paint lids and trim, and cut and roll the walls after everything is up. ( get the spraying done, at least) My last job, I put one topcoat on the walls too, just cuz I had time, then I waited till stuff was done, and did a quick second coat.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> And here's another thing, why does everything need to be sprayed when it's back rolled anyways?


the time it takes to spray a new ceilings with no floor vs cut and roll is a pretty big difference, hardly negligible


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm just trying to explain why general contractors and trades people, in general, hate painters. Just look at the exaggerated comment below:



> "So you think we should just cave in and have our job take over twice as long as we bid it for, because the GC cant do stuff in order? We do our bids with a certain expectation."


Really, is it going to take twice as long to paint the interior of a house because you had to cover floors? I didn't realize covering floors was such a difficult task. I mean, this is what the general contractors are getting from painters all the time.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> the time it takes to spray a new ceilings with no floor vs cut and roll is a pretty big difference, hardly negligible


Brushing and rolling vs. spraying is not being debated. The question is, would you lose a job because you had to protect the floors before you sprayed? In other words, would your profit margin, or potential to get the job be seriously compromised because you had to include protecting the floors?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

At the end of the day all of this is moot because most of you, I'm sure, are in a position where you can tell the GC to go fly a kite if he doesn't accommodate you. Right?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Go Philly! Later.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I’ve always heard that NC is pretty cutthroat (at least with regards to spec homes) and it’s all about bringing the most efficient and cost effective process to the table that will get a paint contractor the job. Around here, certain companies are known for doing the bulk of NC work because they have their processes worked out. And not only is cost of prime concern to a GC but so it the time. When they have gotten to the painting end of things they are running out of both money and time so the last thing they are going to be keen on is a process that takes more of both. 
So I think the answer to your question about whether a longer process would prevent someone from landing a NC job would be, yes, it would.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I’ve always heard that NC is pretty cutthroat (at least with regards to spec homes) and it’s all about bringing the most efficient and cost effective process to the table that will get a paint contractor the job. Around here, certain companies are known for doing the bulk of NC work because they have their processes worked out. And not only is cost of prime concern to a GC but so it the time. When they have gotten to the painting end of things they are running out of both money and time so the last thing they are going to be keen on is a process that takes more of both.
> So I think the answer to your question about whether *a longer process *would prevent someone from landing a NC job would be, yes, it would.


For all the points that have been presented, I disagree. Residential repaints would be "twice" as expensive than it would be for new construction if that were the case.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> For all the points that have been presented, I disagree. Residential repaints would be "twice" as expensive than it would be for new construction if that were the case.




And they are at least twice as expensive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> And they are at least twice as expensive.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If that's the case, why would anyone even volunteer to do NC?


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> If that's the case, why would anyone even volunteer to do NC?




That's a question I've asked myself many times. 

BTW, good job playing the devil's advocate here. We've been due for a good February dust-up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> For all the points that have been presented, I disagree. Residential repaints would be "twice" as expensive than it would be for new construction if that were the case.


I’m not sure of your point, I was simply stating that with regards to NC, any process which takes longer and is more expensive will lose out to one which saves on both. Was never referencing to residential repaints at all - altogether different animals and definitely more expensive.


On a side note, at least we agree on “go Eagles”.:smile:


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> If that's the case, why would anyone even volunteer to do NC?




Crap, second thing I agree with you on in back to back posts! NC has certainly never appealed to me. Like I said earlier, only a few outfits will do them around here. Kinda’ like knocking out cheap apartment repaints I guess - if you have a well honed process there must be money to be made.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> That's a question I've asked myself many times.
> 
> BTW, good job playing the devil's advocate here. We've been due for a good February dust-up.
> 
> ...


Thanks.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> That's a question I've asked myself many times.
> 
> BTW, good job playing the devil's advocate here. We've been due for a good February dust-up.
> 
> ...


I've been told before I resemble Keanu Reeves.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Thanks. I've been told before I resemble Al Pachino.




Hope they were referring to a younger Al Pacino. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Hope they were referring to a younger Al Pacino.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Actually, Reeves was the advocate. I messed that up lol!


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I've been told before I resemble Keanu Reeves.




Lol. Too late, I already quoted your original! "It's Slinger by a nose!" 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Actually, Reeves was the advocate. I messed that up lol!




That's right, Pacino was in fact the devil. You've been pretty devilish in this thread, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> That's right, Pacino was in fact the devil. You've been pretty devilish in this thread, though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm just trying to make some friends. These social network sites are great for that. Right?


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I'm just trying to make some friends. These social network sites are great for that. Right?




We don't call you the Ambassador of PT for nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Say ello to my lil fren! All right. Back to the game.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Way to go Philly!


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> We don't call you the Amb*ass*ador of PT for nothing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Yea. I get it!:wink:


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Yea. I get it!:wink:




Guess I should have went with "plenipotentiary". 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Guess I should have went with "plenipotentiary".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, as in being a “plen in the potentiary”? :devil3:


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

RH said:


> Oh, as in being a “plen in the potentiary”? :devil3:




CA is gonna love that one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Guess I should have went with "plenipotentiary".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
gone
just sayin( it's my long gone mother talking):biggrin:

surprised RH did not pick that one up


----------

