# Turning Customers Away



## jsheridan

I officially turned away my first customer on a repaint. It's not the first, but I consider it the first official one. As I've said before, I'm not certified, with no plans to be either. I may some day, but for reasons other than doing RRP work myself. 
This customer, while not a regular, is a landscape contractor I've done a bit of work for over the years. For an idea of how this guy operates, he hands his Mexicans paint brushes. He paid as much to do his entire exterior as I told him it should have cost just to do the shutters. It would of been a no-bid job to redo his master suite in an 1830's farmhouse. I was tempted to do it, and thought about it for a couple of days, but the guy makes me nervous, so I called him and turned him down. I took a bit of flaming from him and a gc who's in our circle. He has grandchildren who spend time at his house and I know that if any showed up with lead, I'd be under the first bus going past his house. I won't take any new customers/proposals for RRP work, but it's going to be tough turning away existing customers. I don't have that many, and those I do are so conservative, they'd probably fire me for even talking about it. I've discussed this with every customer I've encountered since Arp 22, RRP or not, and every one dismissed this as a joke, even the landscape contractor. What an f'ing mess this is.


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## bikerboy

Being in Cape May with all those older homes that must be tough. Why don't you just break down and get certified? Otherwise you are limiting your options.


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## jsheridan

bikerboy said:


> Being in Cape May with all those older homes that must be tough. Why don't you just break down and get certified? Otherwise you are limiting your options.


There's a lot to the answer of that question Biker, but twenty years ago I may have done so. I'm new to Cape May, but I once had a customer whose family member had a large outfit in San Fran that specialized in Victorian repaints and I considered packing my bags for what would have been a guaranteed job as a brush man, so that's my mindset, but, as Bob Dylan says, things have changed. Besides, I don't "break down" that easy. It's a matter of principle as well. There are gazillions of things that need paint besides RRP. Just as those certified, I'll have to refocus my efforts, only toward non RRP, which will be easier than the alternative.


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## CliffK

jsheridan said:


> I officially turned away my first customer on a repaint. It's not the first, but I consider it the first official one. As I've said before, I'm not certified, with no plans to be either. I may some day, but for reasons other than doing RRP work myself.
> This customer, while not a regular, is a landscape contractor I've done a bit of work for over the years. For an idea of how this guy operates, he hands his Mexicans paint brushes. He paid as much to do his entire exterior as I told him it should have cost just to do the shutters. It would of been a no-bid job to redo his master suite in an 1830's farmhouse. I was tempted to do it, and thought about it for a couple of days, but the guy makes me nervous, so I called him and turned him down. I took a bit of flaming from him and a gc who's in our circle. He has grandchildren who spend time at his house and I know that if any showed up with lead, I'd be under the first bus going past his house. I won't take any new customers/proposals for RRP work, but it's going to be tough turning away existing customers. I don't have that many, and those I do are so conservative, they'd probably fire me for even talking about it. I've discussed this with every customer I've encountered since Arp 22, RRP or not, and every one dismissed this as a joke, even the landscape contractor. What an f'ing mess this is.


 I do agree Joe that generally speaking the customers that I have had to have the "conversation" with are not receptive to the whole RRP idea. I resent the fact a little that it has become the responsibility of the contractors to educate, inform and implement these new regs. I had a guy last week that said "just don't tell 'em"! I had another customer go on a rant of "that's why everything costs so much, because of all the damn regulations, now they are telling us what we can do in our own homes, maybe they should make it illegal to smoke in your own home if there are children there!!!" This is true stuff that I have experienced in the past month. The three larger shops in my area, to my knowledge are NOT RRP certified. They are not listed on the EPA site as so(although I don't know how accurate that list is). I have begun in some cases to discuss options of prep work with potential customers that would not involve any "disturbance" and therefore not qualify as a renovation and not be subject to RRP protocol especially for interior work where there is no failing paint. Many are very receptive to the idea.
I'm old school and from a time where we would hand sand trim, doors & walls prior to coating, but for areas in decent shape and with the new products, bonding isn't the concern it once was. Many people would rather just not have us sand or "disturb". If you think about it, that is really the safest method of all for everyone-No disturbance. I am willing and able to approach it either way. We are certified for when it can't be avoided and open minded when there is an alternative. I am very glad I became certified though, even if it is just to have the credentials and the information I gained in the process. Gotta make the adjustments, "The times they are a changing".


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## Different Strokes

I've declined two exterior repaints already this year. Both homes miserable peeling failing paint and were built in the 1950's. I have enough work that doesn't require the additional headaches of RRP. There will be guys that probably end up sort of "specializing" in doing RRP work. I won't be one of them. I still got certified though, it just a good idea to be covered. I do occasionally work on properties pre78 so better safe than sorry. 

I have a hard enough time selling work at my prices already than to have to worry about the additional cost of RRP prep and or containment in my sales pitch. 

There's a reason regular painting outfits don't paint bridges anymore. Just companies that specialize in it.


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## plainpainter

I am starting to convince myself that if you want to be a pro, don't do residential painting. If you still want to paint a house, buy it first, then paint it, then sell it again for a much larger profit than a paint job alone.


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## CliffK

plainpainter said:


> I am starting to convince myself that if you want to be a pro, don't do residential painting. If you still want to paint a house, buy it first, then paint it, then sell it again for a much larger profit than a paint job alone.


 Come July of this year it looks like the RRP will apply to commercial work as well-the jury is still out. There will be not a lot of places to hide.


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## CliffK

On another note Joe. Even if you are not certified you can have a potential project tested by a certified lead tester. There is a guy in my area with the X-ray gun. He charges $200 for the first room interior or the first story exterior and $25 for each additional. He will do all the paperwork etc. It's possible that some projects you may pass on may not even be hot for lead, not only that, some projects that have lead do not have enough to qualify for RRP protocol and the gun determines that ,where the lead check test can't.


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## jsheridan

CliffK said:


> now they are telling us what we can do in our own homes, maybe they should make it illegal to smoke in your own home if there are children there!!!" This is true stuff that I have experienced in the past month.


Cliff, I'm old school too, I hear you. The precedent has been established now that they can enter your home. Do you think the whole RRP apparatus/bureaucracy will disappear once lead is gone? It will simply expand to cover any other byproduct of construction. Also, people who believe that low/no VOC paints are aren't harmful to you have drank the PC kool-aid. Carbon Monoxide doesn't have any odor either. 



Different Strokes said:


> I've declined two exterior repaints already this year. Both homes miserable peeling failing paint and were built in the 1950's. I have enough work that doesn't require the additional headaches of RRP. There will be guys that probably end up sort of "specializing" in doing RRP work. I won't be one of them. I still got certified though, it just a good idea to be covered. I do occasionally work on properties pre78 so better safe than sorry.
> 
> I have a hard enough time selling work at my prices already than to have to worry about the additional cost of RRP prep and or containment in my sales pitch.
> 
> There's a reason regular painting outfits don't paint bridges anymore. Just companies that specialize in it.


I think that's how this is going to shake out if not repealed. Pre 78 will become a specialized area because eventually only the larger firms will be able to keep on top of the changes, absorb the costs that can't be passed on, and hire staff to monitor jobs. Like the auto companies, it will become an economies of scale matter. Personally, I don't think the *average *rank and file employee has the sense or the committment to fully understand compliance procedures and follow through. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my liability in their hands. I have a hard enough time teaching them my few particulars with drop cloths, let alone RRP. The larger firms who can attract the better talent will not have those types of problems the pot and brush/smaller outfits have in that respect. And the smaller outfits will come to realize that and simply fade away from RRP or fight to get bigger.


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## jsheridan

CliffK said:


> On another note Joe. Even if you are not certified you can have a potential project tested by a certified lead tester. There is a guy in my area with the X-ray gun. He charges $200 for the first room interior or the first story exterior and $25 for each additional. He will do all the paperwork etc. It's possible that some projects you may pass on may not even be hot for lead, not only that, some projects that have lead do not have enough to qualify for RRP protocol and the gun determines that ,where the lead check test can't.


Cliff, thanks for that info. Between my move to Cape May and re-establishment here, the fact that I only have about five more good years of productive work (you name it, it aches), and the RRP issue, I'm re-evaluating how to go forward. I have some plans roughed out and that info might prove helpful to me. That's why I said I might become certified, but not necessarily to engage in RRP work.


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## RCP

CliffK said:


> On another note Joe. Even if you are not certified you can have a potential project tested by a certified lead tester. There is a guy in my area with the X-ray gun. He charges $200 for the first room interior or the first story exterior and $25 for each additional. He will do all the paperwork etc. It's possible that some projects you may pass on may not even be hot for lead, not only that, some projects that have lead do not have enough to qualify for RRP protocol and the gun determines that ,where the lead check test can't.


This is an excellent point to remember. Even if a home tests positive with a swab test, an XRF may show the levels low enough to proceed without RRP.
This is also one of the reasons why I became a Dust Sampling Tech, having a third party clearance will help to cover you.

Hard to really say how many homes have lead, here is some data.



> Ninety percent of the housing units built before 1940 have lead- based paint on interior or exterior surfaces, according to a national survey. The
> percentage drops to 80 percent for houses built between 1940 and 1959, and to 62 percent for houses built between 1960 and 1979.


More here


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## oldpaintdoc

RCP said:


> Hard to really say how many homes have lead, here is some data.
> 
> 
> 
> More here


Where does this "DATA" come from? I do not trust "DATA" !


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## RCP

ragebhardt said:


> Where does this "DATA" come from? I do not trust "DATA" !


Check the link.


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## Different Strokes

*About 5 miles from my house.*

*It's my understanding, they were fined for the $130,000.*

HARRISBURG - Federal workplace-safety regulators said Tuesday they had proposed nearly $130,000 in fines against a Canonsburg painting company that allegedly exposed its employees to dangerously high levels of lead while working on a Harrisburg bridge.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration said it cited the Panthera Painting Co. Inc. for 35 violations in connection with repainting and lead abatement on the bridge that takes I-81 across the Susquehanna River.

The most serious violation alleges that Panthera, a Pennsylvania Department of Transportation subcontractor on the bridge project, failed to monitor lead levels quarterly. That violation is classified as "willful," which means the company demonstrated intentional disregard or indifference to the law. It carries a $42,000 fine.


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## RCP

Different Strokes said:


> *It's my understanding, they were fined for the $130,000.*
> 
> HARRISBURG - Federal workplace-safety regulators said Tuesday they had proposed nearly $130,000 in fines against a Canonsburg painting company that allegedly exposed its employees to dangerously high levels of lead while working on a Harrisburg bridge.
> 
> The Occupational Safety and Health Administration said it cited the Panthera Painting Co. Inc. for 35 violations in connection with repainting and lead abatement on the bridge that takes I-81 across the Susquehanna River.
> 
> The most serious violation alleges that Panthera, a Pennsylvania Department of Transportation subcontractor on the bridge project, failed to monitor lead levels quarterly. That violation is classified as "willful," which means the company demonstrated intentional disregard or indifference to the law. It carries a $42,000 fine.


That is OHSA, has nothing to do with the RRP Rule, please add a link to the source when you guys post those, thanks.


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## aaron61

jsheridan said:


> I officially turned away my first customer on a repaint. It's not the first, but I consider it the first official one. As I've said before, I'm not certified, with no plans to be either. I may some day, but for reasons other than doing RRP work myself.
> This customer, while not a regular, is a landscape contractor I've done a bit of work for over the years. For an idea of how this guy operates, he hands his Mexicans paint brushes. He paid as much to do his entire exterior as I told him it should have cost just to do the shutters. It would of been a no-bid job to redo his master suite in an 1830's farmhouse. I was tempted to do it, and thought about it for a couple of days, but the guy makes me nervous, so I called him and turned him down. I took a bit of flaming from him and a gc who's in our circle. He has grandchildren who spend time at his house and I know that if any showed up with lead, I'd be under the first bus going past his house. I won't take any new customers/proposals for RRP work, but it's going to be tough turning away existing customers. I don't have that many, and those I do are so conservative, they'd probably fire me for even talking about it. I've discussed this with every customer I've encountered since Arp 22, RRP or not, and every one dismissed this as a joke, even the landscape contractor. What an f'ing mess this is.


it is easy for them to scoff since there is no chance of them being fined.ONLY YOU!
So if they can talk you into it, they can save a few bucks, but you bear all the burden. Don't be foolish. Even though I think it rediculous. I am certified.


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## jsheridan

aaron61 said:


> it is easy for them to scoff since there is no chance of them being fined.ONLY YOU!
> So if they can talk you into it, they can save a few bucks, but you bear all the burden. Don't be foolish. Even though I think it rediculous. I am certified.


They won't be saving many bucks Aaron if they talk me into it. With the greater risk comes greater reward. There would be a premium attached.


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## Dean CRCNA

I turn away customers too, but only if they own a post 1977 built home. Early on in all of this mess, I decided to specialize in lead based paint issues. 

In my mind, the only competition I have is other lead safe contractors and as we know .... not many of them around. I've tried to sell RRP jobs in many different ways, so I've learned a lot about what not to do.

I've increased my rates and as we know, the hours increase too (because of compliance). So total sales has been good to me. 

This is probably why I am more pro-RRP than most. Not sure why, but at the start of this I saw opportunity and decided to make it work in my favor. 

I will agree, not many owners looking for a lead safe certified firm (or even know about it), but for those who are worry about their own liabilities (being legal) or they're concerned for their children ... it has become an easier sell. 

I specialize and I charge like it.


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## oldpaintdoc

RCP said:


> Check the link.


My point is if I wanna make something look bad or good I can come up with the "data". And I will only include the "data" that makes it look good.
I may even fudge the numbers to make it look better. How many people are going to really dig far enough to dipute it? Now a days "data" don't mean squat.


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## RCP

ragebhardt said:


> My point is if I wanna make something look bad or good I can come up with the "data". And I will only include the "data" that makes it look good.
> I may even fudge the numbers to make it look better. How many people are going to really dig far enough to dipute it? Now a days "data" don't mean squat.


I can agree with that, remember, I work in a school and with NCLB, data reporting is a huge issue.


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## Roamer

To the OP: what is the percentage of homes in Cape May that are post 78? We used to vacation there and the place is famous for its 'painted ladies' all of which are pre-1878 let alone 1978. I think you are going to be turning down a lot of work in the near future.

You just have to sell it. It is that easy. We work in an area that has a preponderance of pre-78 homes. We are currently on four different RRP projects as I write this post. Once you get the hang of the nitty gritty of the regs it really isn't that big a deal. 

You put up signs, use plastic for dropcloths, protect your workers, minimize dust, collect all debris and clean up really well at the end of every day. Not really a big change for us. We did most of this stuff anyway.

The paperwork, yeah, it is a pain. Again though, once you get the hang of it or put a process in place it becomes second nature.


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## jsheridan

I object to RRP on a number of grounds. The one most applicable to your point is scale. I looked at your website, are you kidding me. You have a staff of 40 people. It's pretty "easy" when you have that type of support, manpower, and financial structure behind you. I'm a pot and brush, mostly solo, craft shop. I have a small, dedicated niche of customers and my business is all word of mouth. I do little to no work for complete strangers. Practically all my work is no bid, some of it is no price, do it and bill after. And, I rarely have a day where there's no work. Practically none of my customers would even entertain RRP compliance. Paperwork, what is that? My signature says Chief Brush Cleaner, because I am, and everything in between that and CEO. When do I fit in all the federal ridiculousness? You'll have the staff to deal with the whining, hysterical customers who see dust where none exists, and all the other insanity that RRP will cause. Me, I'll have to deal with it all. I guess I'll do that in between the paperwork, the continuing education, and the basics required to keep my ass working. I already have enough on my plate. At 50 years old, and on my way out the door as far as day to day painting, I'm not interested in taking on the headache, especially something as insane, overblown, and nanny state as RRP. I'm scaling down, not up. I have anger and resentment, but it's not toward any of my fellows in the trade. I applaud you for the business you built. I'm sure you're proud and deserve to be. Hat's off. And, I respect your decision to take this on with gusto. For an outfit of your size, you'd be a fool to not do so. For me, I'd be a fool to even get involved. There's plenty to paint without RRP, and, if history's any guide, I'll be busy till the day I put the brushes down.


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## Rockford Il Painter

*Rrp*

Hey Roamer, How do you sell these jobs? We are certified and one of the few in the area who plan on working on these older homes. But, the HO just looks at me like a deer in headlights. I even did a bid today for a rental property owner who was going to try to do the exterior job themselves, when I told them they had to be certified, again deer in the headlights. The price does go up some to do everything that BIG BROTHER wants us to do so it's hard to explain the increase when the HO is looking for the most cost effective (notice I did'nt say cheapest) job.


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## aaron61

jsheridan said:


> They won't be saving many bucks Aaron if they talk me into it. With the greater risk comes greater reward. There would be a premium attached.


Well that doesn't make much sense????You might as well do it right,get certified and get the big bucks.


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## Roamer

Rockford Il Painter said:


> Hey Roamer, How do you sell these jobs? We are certified and one of the few in the area who plan on working on these older homes. But, the HO just looks at me like a deer in headlights. I even did a bid today for a rental property owner who was going to try to do the exterior job themselves, when I told them they had to be certified, again deer in the headlights. The price does go up some to do everything that BIG BROTHER wants us to do so it's hard to explain the increase when the HO is looking for the most cost effective (notice I did'nt say cheapest) job.


At the end of my first visit with the client, typically at the end of the bid, I mention that they might already know that the EPA has instituted new lead laws governing older homes. Most nod and say they've heard of it. In any case, I then tell them that we'll be sending a pdf brochure about lead and the when they sign our contract that they'll need to sign an included document acknowledging that they have received the brochure and read it and also acknowledge the precautions that we will be taking. The precautions are outlined on the same document. We kill two birds with one stone. At the end of the job we already have their signature above where we sign that acknowledges that we did in fact do the prescribed precautions.

In terms of increased cost? What are we talking about? A roll or two, at the most of 6 ml plastic, two tyvek suits per man per job, roughly. Then the clean up. If it is interior then yeah, each job should share in the cost of the HEPA vac and all jobs should share to a small degree the cost of our certification. We have four of our crew leaders certified, plus myself and the company. We are sending an additional two crew leaders to the class this Friday in Baltimore.

Overall, that isn't much cost.

Sheridan, you may be a one man band or one crew operation that just means that it is all a matter of scale. We have simplified the paperwork process into one document that the customer signs before we set foot on site. Boom, paperwork taken care of. We sign the form at the end to certify that we did what we said we'd do and to certify that the sight is clean.


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## jsheridan

Roamer said:


> At the end of my first visit with the client, typically at the end of the bid, I mention that they might already know that the EPA has instituted new lead laws governing older homes. Most nod and say they've heard of it. In any case, I then tell them that we'll be sending a pdf brochure about lead and the when they sign our contract that they'll need to sign an included document acknowledging that they have received the brochure and read it and also acknowledge the precautions that we will be taking. The precautions are outlined on the same document. We kill two birds with one stone. At the end of the job we already have their signature above where we sign that acknowledges that we did in fact do the prescribed precautions.
> 
> In terms of increased cost? What are we talking about? A roll or two, at the most of 6 ml plastic, two tyvek suits per man per job, roughly. Then the clean up. If it is interior then yeah, each job should share in the cost of the HEPA vac and all jobs should share to a small degree the cost of our certification. We have four of our crew leaders certified, plus myself and the company. We are sending an additional two crew leaders to the class this Friday in Baltimore.
> 
> Overall, that isn't much cost.
> 
> Sheridan, you may be a one man band or one crew operation that just means that it is all a matter of scale. We have simplified the paperwork process into one document that the customer signs before we set foot on site. Boom, paperwork taken care of. We sign the form at the end to certify that we did what we said we'd do and to certify that the sight is clean.


I think somebody puts crack in that stogie you smoke roamer!


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## Dean CRCNA

Rockford,

With interior painting, there are many cases where RRP doesn’t apply. When trying to sell a RRP exterior job, I do it like any other estimate, except at the end of the estimate …

I ask them if they’re familiar with the new lead law. Most are not. I keep it very simple and explain that it was enacted last year and that it says any renovation that disturbs a painted or stained surface on a pre-1978 built home is required by law to be done by a Lead Safe Certified Firm, which we are. This is because of the possibility of lead based paint. I also mention that this will most likely add on $____ to $_____ to the cost.

I also mention that I want them to verify that this is an actual law and I’m not making things up by going to www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm or by calling the federal lead hotline at 800-424-5323. I also give them a 1 page copy of the law with the highlighted part where it says only a Lead Safe Firm can do the work. That 1 page also has the link and telephone number. I also give them the Renovate Right pamphlet at this time.

_By telling them I want them to verify, it basically convinces them that this is really a law. First hurdle done.

At this time, I pause and let them respond. It usually is the deer in headlights look to a rant. If a rant, I will basically agree with them, because I want them to feel that I’m on their side. I stay as far away as possible from contradicting their opinions.

I’ve even had some of them say that there is no !?*&#$ way, they are going to pay this. 

Note: In some rare cases they may just say, “well we got to do what the law says”, but this (or a similar response ) usually only happens if they haven’t got any other competitive bids or they’re the rare folks that are concerned with following the law. I always get these jobs, so don’t go into the subject of RRP much further._

How they respond to this new news, I empathize with them, tell them how I understand and basically agree with them.

I then go into how crazy this whole thing is. That there has been several cases where neighbors have sued the homeowner for getting lead dust on their property (and contaminated their children). Cost the homeowner thousands and thousands to fix the problem. How homeowners are having to disclose that they had illegal work done on the home when they decide to sell. How enforcement agents can show up on the job and shut it done for months and the homeowners have a half painted house. Crazy!

_The above is my attempt for creating an unrealized need that the homeowner has and didn’t know they had. That need is protecting them from getting into trouble. Selling RRP, when a homeowner has a need … makes it easier. You’re the solution to their newly discovered need. By the way, this stuff does happen, so I’m not making it up._

I even tell them that we were tempted to go the illegal route, but we’re not that type of company. Times are hard and many people are desperate and willing to cheat, but we try to be honest, ethical and above board … so there was no choice for us to do things the right way. What are we going to do? Do things illegally and put the homeowner in a bad situation? Plus, if we did this illegally, what else were we willing to cheat on or lie about? So, ultimately, we decided to follow the law and protect the homeowner. It’s just the way we operate.

I basically end it there. I will leave some literature. I will answer any questions, but in general this is the way I do it.

I use to bring up elevated blood lead levels, but found that I couldn’t convince very many in the short time that I had. So instead, I keep with the legal aspect of it, because it can be explained quickly. The only exception to this, is if they have kids. If so, then I may bring it up, but just for a min or two.

I also make sure I charge for it.


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## Rockford Il Painter

We are going to put together an information page to give our customers. Your information will help greatly! Thank you very much!!!


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## CliffK

Very informative and insightful post Dean CRCNA. I believe you are on the right track!


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## Dean CRCNA

We're toying with another idea.

On pre-1978 homes .... using an exterior painting job for an example ...

Giving 2 estimates

1. for a High Quality Job (pressure washing, prep ... etc).

2. for Top Quality Job (hand washing, prep ... etc).

If we test and find it to be lead based paint free ... customer has their choice.

If we test and find it to have lead based paint, they will need to choose the Top Quality Job.

Psychologically, the homeowner sees it less as a "added cost" if lead based paint is found and more that they just have to get the Top Quality Job.

Just a difference in attitude.


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## ComRemodel

Roamer said:


> To the OP: what is the percentage of homes in Cape May that are post 78? We used to vacation there and the place is famous for its 'painted ladies' all of which are pre-1878 let alone 1978. I think you are going to be turning down a lot of work in the near future.


I vacation there several times every summer (look for me walking around with the Paint Store T shirt) and I can tell you that the entire city of Cape May is a historic preservation of old Victorians. But if you are going to stay away from the pre 78s there are still plenty of commercial and summer rentals that will keep you busy along with a fair amount of new construction.

-Hal


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## fauxlynn

Rockford Il Painter said:


> Hey Roamer, How do you sell these jobs? We are certified and one of the few in the area who plan on working on these older homes. But, the HO just looks at me like a deer in headlights. *I even did a bid today for a rental property owner who was going to try to do the exterior job themselves, when I told them they had to be certified, again deer in the headlights.* The price does go up some to do everything that BIG BROTHER wants us to do so it's hard to explain the increase when the HO is looking for the most cost effective (notice I did'nt say cheapest) job.



Are you sure about that? Are you saying the homeowner has to be certified?


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## RCP

fauxlynn said:


> Are you sure about that? Are you saying the homeowner has to be certified?


A homeowner can work on his own house, but if it is a rental he must be certified or hire a certified firm, he is also required to give renters a Lead notice on pre 78 homes.


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