# Why would anyone use Ben Moore Paints



## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

I am a commercial Painting contractor and wonder with the cost of this paint why anyone would use it.
Its 3 times SW or PPg for the same product. Why do they spec this stuff??
I refuse to bid jobs using it anymore.
Anyone else feel my pain..


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bodean614 said:


> I am a commercial Painting contractor and wonder with the cost of this paint why anyone would use it.
> Its 3 times SW or PPg for the same product. Why do they spec this stuff??
> I refuse to bid jobs using it anymore.
> Anyone else feel my pain..


Its better?


I understand what you're saying though. I stopped bidding commercial jobs in BM years ago. Most commercial work ( around here anyways ) is low man wins. Even if we do win, theres almost no profit for us. Everyone wants to "tab" their bill, then pay within maybe 90 days if they dont BK in the process. No thanks :no:

I'll just let PPG and SW beat themselves up for the scraps.


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

*Low man wins*

This is how it is. Rule of thumb is if you dont miss something you wont get the job...HAHA

We try to use PPG for the most part because of pricing.
SW has the best service but if we want to keep our guys busy we have to be low.
we do these jobs for just about cost just to keep going. some day we will get the economy back but I believe this is getting rid of the guys that just got by. I still manage to keep 15 guys busy and not in the red yet!!!!!:notworthy:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bodean614 said:


> we do these jobs for just about cost just to keep going.


So whats the point of doing it then? If you cant turn a profit, its a constant scramble from job to job to "keep going". One little problem and you're screwed. Then you have a massive problem. Its a viscous cycle, and hard to get out of. Maybe its time to revise the business plan, and stop working for cost. What happens when "costs" go up?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> So whats the point of doing it then? If you cant turn a profit, its a constant scramble from job to job to "keep going". One little problem and you're screwed. Then you have a massive problem. Its a viscous cycle, and hard to get out of. Maybe its time to revise the business plan, and stop working for cost. What happens when "costs" go up?





bodean614 said:


> I still manage to keep 15 guys busy and not in the red yet!!!!!:notworthy:


He didn't say he was not turning a profit. Yes, I imagine it is tough doing commercial in today's economy, but if he is keeping 15 guys busy, kudos to him.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

I just paid $93 for one gallon of BM Freshstart enamel underbody and one gallon of Satin Impervo.


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

*Future*

Well I dont want to work for someone else. Because Ive kept my business going and have the ability to get thru this all the guys who dont run a propoer business will be working for me.
If the cost goes up so does everyones price. Labor is what it is but the material changes like the stock market..
I still do about 30 new homes a month and have gotten 500K in commercial work this year already. business has grown 30% thru this economy Must be doing something right


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

*Wtf!!!!!!!*



One Coat Coverage said:


> I just paid $93 for one gallon of BM Freshstart enamel underbody and one gallon of Satin Impervo.


 
I know I just got done with a BM job and Had a change in contract that left me with about 50 gallons of primer and they want a restocking FEE ,,,, HAHA F BM

And My guys say its not 3 times better so why 3 times the price...LOL


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bodean614 said:


> we do these jobs for just about cost just to keep going.


^^^^^^^^^

Chris -- That's why I was asking :thumbsup:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm a big BM guy, I do well with their stuff. Just wondering is the store you getting your BM small? If I needed 50 gallons of primer, My store would have to do a extra order as they don't carry that much. If I then turned around and returned it, I can see where they would get a little bummed out as the stuff could be siting there for awhile before they can get rid of it. Now if you walked in there and just grabbed the stuff of the shelf's then I can see your point. Or maybe you are one of the guys that comes in the store complaining all the time about pricing and the guys at the store are just trying to tell you to fook off in a real nice way. 

Pat


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

For commercial production applications, I certainly see your point. For residential repaints and custom/quality applications, BM has started to put some distance between the next closest competitors imo.

Gennex is a game changer and for now BM is all over it. They need to figure out the red/yellow issue - and I'm sure they are working on it - but the hide on this stuff is unbelievable. The extra cost is more than offset by labor savings given the way I work. I understand everyone has a different way of looking at things based on how you work, but that's my take.

BM seems to be targeting the HO a bit more. Of the last 10 (residential repaint) jobs I've done, six or seven either requested that I use BM paint or said that they had the impression that BM paint was "top of the line." Nobody is mentioning SW to me this year.

Whatever BM is doing, that reality is FORCING us to use it. If I show up with another brand of paint, the customer feels I'm using an inferior product. I'm just glad all these people aren't clamoring for Behr or Valspar.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't understand the problem with paint costs. The cost to do a job in my world is over 90% labor, the materials costs is nothing really. Plus, the customer pays for the materials, so who cares how much it costs, unless you are bidding against a lot of people, and your chosen clientele (gc's, etc) awards jobs on price alone. 

And yes, I use Ben Moore almost exclusively.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

I use a considerable amount of BM as well.

Generally in the past I had given customers a base price, and an upgrade cost to go to BM products.

Now I will generally just quote what I think is best for the job, and then if they seem to have any price objections mention that price can be lowered a bit for product, and what the cost difference in product and quality would be.

I have yet to paint a house where someone opted to go for a cheaper paint unless it was to sell the place, or a rental.

Educating our customers, it's half the battle, the rest is easy  :thumbsup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It does sound like commercial and 30 new homes a month type homes are the place for cheap paints. At the super spec and below levels, BM is nothing special. Not sure on Ben (my main dealer does not carry it). Regal is nice (I really want to try Regal Select, but again not at my dealer yet), Aura is great, Natura is great. I like the sheen levels of BM compared to SW for wall paint.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

If you're getting jobs on price, forget about quality paints that are more expensive. Kinda simple.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Now I'm no business guru but my inclination is that if your business plan relies on the cost of paint to make your necessary profit margin, then I would think the temptation to buy the no-label "5 for 5" would be irresistible. (Building 19: Five gallons for $5)

When the cost of materials is so critical, there are always alternatives.

Me? Even when I was painting and not knowing ANYTHING about how to run my numbers, we always bought the best - and no, BM was not on our list for interior paints. But that was in the 70's.


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

*commercial work*

Well I dont have the liberty to spec the paint for commercial work. And no I have to use less expensive paint in the new hm production business or I cant do them for what they pay. I dont have a problem using Bm if thats what is specd. I raise my price accordingly. The biggest issue is these BM stores have no charge accounts so your flopping cash out months before you get paid and they dont stock crap. I had to wait a week to get a gallon of DTM because I ran short on 2 door frames, I do not believe that BM at 47 a gallon vs 15 a gallon for SW promar 200 is justifiable. at that price they should be self applying. And in the sales world we do not use the word cheaper....of course a homeowner would shun away. :no:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Apples and oranges. Compare a $15 sw to a 15 BM product. Sound like you need to develop a relationship with a bm store. Sounds more like you are getting BM from an ace hardware.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I've had charge accounts at all the BM stores I deal with.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ProWallGuy said:


> I've had charge accounts at all the BM stores I deal with.


Yes, is up to the owners whether or not to offer charge accounts. We have a few that are very long standing good accounts.

He just said though...why shell out the money months before he gets paid? Why should I give product months before the store gets paid....if at all? Our accounts are all net 30.

BM actually has a credit card that gives 60 days same as cash on every purchase. (You can use it anywhere.....SW too ) I have guys that run a tab for 30 days at the shop, then pay on their card and get 60 days more. 90 days is more than fair IMO.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bodean614 said:


> This is how it is. Rule of thumb is if you dont miss something you wont get the job...HAHA


I have wasted a good bit of time and money trying to get into doing commercial work. I bid over a dozen last year and didn't come close to winning a single one. What is wrong with the industry? 

Its actually worse than NC residential.


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

*getting work*



straight_lines said:


> I have wasted a good bit of time and money trying to get into doing commercial work. I bid over a dozen last year and didn't come close to winning a single one. What is wrong with the industry?
> 
> Its actually worse than NC residential.


I'm a estimator so i get paid even if we dont get a job. I will say I bid hundreds (300-400)of jobs a year. your lucky if you can get 8% of those. The problem is that there are 20 gcs bidding every job and they all have 5 painters bidding. Ive lost jobs over 200 bucks..
low man wins 98% of the time. I have developed a spread sheet to help crunch the numbers and you have to be pro active with the gcs and call and find out what your number looked like. we dont go after jobs with a lot of deck and joist because these outfit will do the whole job for what it cost me to do the dryfall. You have to find your niche. ours is jobs from 1k to 50k. I do have a nice one coming up for 300 k keeping fingers crossed.


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## ligboozer (Oct 13, 2009)

I have no problem with BM paint. It is a quality product, and most stores have a couple knowledgeble people working there. 

That is until you compare the price. I have no idea why they feel their paint (even Aura) is worth what they ask. 

For that reason alone I will not use them unless specifically asked by the customer.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ligboozer said:


> I have no problem with BM paint. It is a quality product, and most stores have a couple knowledgeble people working there.
> 
> That is until you compare the price. I have no idea why they feel their paint (even Aura) is worth what they ask.
> 
> For that reason alone I will not use them unless specifically asked by the customer.


Just wait until the rest of the manufacturers start up their acrylic systems. Their prices will either follow suit, or force BM prices down some. I reckon it'll be a mix of both.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I have wasted a good bit of time and money trying to get into doing commercial work. I bid over a dozen last year and didn't come close to winning a single one. What is wrong with the industry?
> 
> Its actually worse than NC residential.


I think it comes down to production rates. I bid on commercial job this winter and was almost double the other prices. Next, I bid one and was still the highest, but much closer. Guys doing tract homes that spray everything will do errrr than those approaching from a residential custom home mindset in most cases when making the transition. Different order of operations as well.


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

I prefer Columbia paints, I'm not sure it might be an exclusive NW brand, now bought out by SW, the comparable BM super spec runs $4-$5 a gallon more and I believe is inferior to columbia's premium pro line... I only use BM when spec'd by the customer and they are interested in the regal, mooregaurd, or rarely aura lines


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

BM makes some great stuff IMO pricey but great. I love regal and I love their ceiling paint. I get regal for around 30 a gallon and I buy from a small store. SW is complete and utter garbage if you ask me. Every time I've used Promar 300 the cuts end up not blending with the roll. Duration isn't half bad but I suspect MAB might make that since it's listed under their products section of their website. Deckscapes solid color is the bees knees though. If I'm not using BM then its gotta be MAB. I get Fresh Kote for 21 a gallon and it hasn't failed me yet. Sea Shore is awesome! Rustolastic.. Phenomenal! I know SW bought them out but MAB still has to be making that paint because it's 10x better than any SW product I've ever worked with. just my two cents


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Its 3 times SW or PPg for the same product. 

really ? SW and PPG are not even close to the quality, BM always has the best customer service. :yes:

Why do they spec this stuff??

Maybe because the want a quality product 

Anyone else feel my pain..

:no: BTW customer pays for the paint


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bodean614 said:


> I'm a estimator so i get paid even if we dont get a job. I will say I bid hundreds (300-400)of jobs a year. your lucky if you can get 8% of those. The problem is that there are 20 gcs bidding every job and they all have 5 painters bidding. Ive lost jobs over 200 bucks..
> low man wins 98% of the time. I have developed a spread sheet to help crunch the numbers and you have to be pro active with the gcs and call and find out what your number looked like. we dont go after jobs with a lot of deck and joist because these outfit will do the whole job for what it cost me to do the dryfall. You have to find your niche. ours is jobs from 1k to 50k. I do have a nice one coming up for 300 k keeping fingers crossed.


GL with that one. I lost one a few months that was right for me. Ultra deep base Ben Moore Regal, fine finish varnish sprayed woodwork. Something I know how to do, and how long it would take. 

I was almost 3k higher than the winning bid, and I bid it so tight that the winner had to be taking a loss unless they were getting the paint half priced somehow. Crazy. :blink:

I will stick to dealing with property managers, and doing repaints for now.

@Dean you are correct about tract homes. I watching a thing of beauty about a month ago when this crew of six was doing some town homes close by. Box truck 55 gal drum, hydra, and four guns. They were completing three 2000 square units a day.


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## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

First off commercial is just a time filler...it really makes **** money cause its so cut throat. Then add in the wait for the $ game and all these property managers and building owners can go jump off a bridge as far as Im concerned! I can get BM Super Hide dirt cheap and that is just fine for the commercial world. In fact SW cant beat my BM guys price on the cheap paint. 

At the end of the day if a few dollars a gallon is gonna break you, then you didn't charge enough!!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> GL with that one. I lost one a few months that was right for me. Ultra deep base Ben Moore Regal, fine finish varnish sprayed woodwork. Something I know how to do, and how long it would take.
> 
> I was almost 3k higher than the winning bid, and I bid it so tight that the winner had to be taking a loss unless they were getting the paint half priced somehow. Crazy. :blink:
> 
> ...


I could not even pulls doors, fill, and caulk in a day much less paint everything.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

And this thread is why I wish all paint was $200 per gallon.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Wouldn't change the profit margins on this type of work Neps. Everyone would just be higher, and still lowballin!


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

maybe if the BM reps bought me lunch and took me golfing I would love to spend the extra few bucks


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Mike's QP said:


> maybe if the BM reps bought me lunch and took me golfing I would love to spend the extra few bucks


I'd rather they come over and cut my grass, and pick up the dog mines in the yard. 

Golf and lunch...is that all it takes these days? Most want that...plus free clothes...fandecks, someone to spec their products, help them estimate, take the blame when they fook up a job, and lets not forget ...give them free material and pay their lost labor on the job they fooked up.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I could not even pulls doors, fill, and caulk in a day much less paint everything.


I said finished wouldn't be a primer coat for most PC's. It was a one coat/color clay sling, and a booger fest blow and go on the trim and doors.


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> I'd rather they come over and cut my grass, and pick up the dog mines in the yard.


 :thumbup:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> He just said though...why shell out the money months before he gets paid? Why should I give product months before the store gets paid....if at all? Our accounts are all net 30.


And this is why I get a down payment for every job. If any of you think that GC started construction without a down payment, I'll personally kiss your azz. There is no reason any sub should be a bank and finance anybody's job. If the client can't afford to cough up money for materials, then that is just plain pathetic.



DeanV said:


> I could not even pulls doors, fill, and caulk in a day much less paint everything.


They are knocking down 3 a day because they don't do any of what you just mentioned.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll sell the customer what they want. 9 times out of 10 when a client want BM, they are willing to pay for it. In-fact when it is requested, I know what type of clientele I'm dealing with. While my competors are talking them out, I'm locking in a great deal who will sell me for selling them what they wanted. 

The only one making money on a 
Commercial job speced BM, is BM. The painter is raw, unless you can get your CO's at double your bid rate. Fingers crossed! Most those jobs are what I call "one hit wonders", which means they are only using you cause your low bid, they will not use you again, regards to that, every square inch that's extra is a change order. Meaning not to be concerned about those relationships. 

As a poster said 98% is looking for low bidders, I'm looking for that 2%


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## LocalPaintPros (Mar 14, 2011)

BM gets spec'd a lot because they have done a phenomenal job in getting in tight with the designers. I have found that when you ask about the "no substitutions" language in commercial bid packets where BM is spec'd, they will pretty quickly allow substitutions to "comparable quality" paints from other manufacturers as long as the colors are custom matched to be as spec'd.

BM has some good products, but I still don't think their quality justifies their price. I have "National Account" pricing with both BM and SW, but my NA discount percentages with SW are better than with BM, so that skews my value perception a bit. But still...

One difference with BM is that all stores are independently owned, so you can get a lot of variance in different regions. Where I live and work, the BM stores are fewer than SW, and so I need to be careful to order paint 7-10 days in advance if I need quantities or specialty stuff. SW can just call up another store across town and get a runner to get what I need.

I think I insulted a local BM store manager when I asked him to help "calibrate" me as to which of their paints compared to what in the SW line-up. I told him the reason I was asking was that I was doing a job where I didn't think I was pushing the color change too much and I wound up having to go to a second coat for a white base product in the Regal line. He told me "we *always* recommend two coats", and the part that I think insulted him was when I replied "well, Superpaint could've done it for me in one". 

Lastly, I *do* spec a "Materials Upgrade" charge on my quotes and explain that as how I recover the cost of expensive paints that are outside of my "built-in" materials cost budget. Sometimes I spec several competing paints. Most of the time, when I do this, customers will go for matching the BM colors in another brand.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> I will stick to dealing with property managers, and doing repaints for now.
> 
> @Dean you are correct about tract homes. I watching a thing of beauty about a month ago when this crew of six was doing some town homes close by. Box truck 55 gal drum, hydra, and four guns. They were completing three 2000 square units a day.


Those guys are doing nothing more than priming my jobs. As much as 10% of those people are going to hire someone to repaint immediately once they get the keys. There's a piece of the pie for all of us.

The BM customers that spec BM are indeed willing to pay more. I think they expect to pay more for the job overall beyond the cost of materials. Because they want that high quality Aura look, the lines, finish and general craftmanship are going to need to be in line as well. That's not 4 guys jogging around the house spraying out of a drum, it's me getting down from the ladder and looking at that line from a few different angles to make sure it looks straight from all over the room - then recutting it if it doesn't. 

Yeah, that costs more.


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## Visenhance (Jun 9, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Its 3 times SW or PPg for the same product.
> 
> really ? SW and PPG are not even close to the quality, BM always has the best customer service. :yes:
> 
> ...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Visenhance said:


> Uhhh...yes it is. PPG makes just as good, if not better products for less. I wont even consider BM unless a job is spec for it, you are paying for the name. I get the best price through PPG because its all I use and they know it.


I sell both PPG and BM. HUGE difference.....huge :yes: None of the products line up, which is exactly why I both lines.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Doesn't PPG make pittsburgh paints including Manor Hall? I think those paints stack against BM just nicely.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Doesn't PPG make pittsburgh paints including Manor Hall? I think those paints stack against BM just nicely.


Yep. Manor Hall Timeless is the closest to SW Duration. If you had to compare to BM, Timeless would probably be closest to the Moorlife/gard/glo line. Timeless interior is again closest to SW Duration Home....I dont think BM has a comparable product....maybe Regal Classic if I had to pick one....not Regal Select. :no:

Gennex makes it hard to cross compare, its completely different technology. Its like comparing DVD and Blu-Ray. The same only completely different. :blink:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Well I've never used an interior latex trim paint from Benny Moore that I really liked. I did once use Aura to repaint a door, which I thought was pretty good as a trim paint - which is strange because I have heard so many hate aura as interior trim. Manor Hall on the other hand is an awesome trim paint.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Speaking of interior trim...I'm actually going through a testing process right now with interior trim paints...maybe you guys can help.

I've got an interior repaint with several phases and a ton of doors to be done. I've already done phase one and the doors didn't go well. I use SW ProClassic, usually thinned a bit. The doors started out as an off white (kinda yellowish) and haven't been painted in 20 years. They have light grain and are pretty slick/smooth. It's one of those situations where you just drop the first coat and try not to touch it aside from graining a bit with the brush because the paint doesn't want to stick.

The hide with SW PC has never been great, but it dries hard and looks good...but again most of the time we are just going white over white anyway. The stuff can also get gummy on the second coat from one hour up to about 48 hours in my experience. So I'm out there looking for something to lessen the pain on these remaining doors.

Like most guys, I'd love to get a one coat product that's going to do the job. That might not exist in this scenario. The SW PC took two coats and even then didn't look great. I typically 4 inch roll then back brush immediately on grained pre-painted doors.

I ran an experiment today with SW PC vs. Aura to test hide. Aura was shot white by the store to get a lot of colorant into the base...over an ounce of white in a qt and a little grey and maybe some Y3 I think. There was a very very slight edge in hide to the Aura, but not enough to warrant a choice being made on this factor alone. 

Advance has a 16 hour recoat time so that's out. I've heard good things about Manor Hall but haven't tried it. Alkyd's allegedly can still yellow over time. Regal doesn't need to be shot for white trim paint (according to my BM guy) because they've got it pre-mixed with colorant and ready to go - but I don't know that Regal would do any better than Aura did today.

Is there anything else out there that has superior hiding ability and a solid finish?


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## LocalPaintPros (Mar 14, 2011)

Wood511 said:


> Speaking of interior trim...I'm actually going through a testing process right now with interior trim paints...maybe you guys can help.
> 
> I've got an interior repaint with several phases and a ton of doors to be done. I've already done phase one and the doors didn't go well. I use SW ProClassic, usually thinned a bit. The doors started out as an off white (kinda yellowish) and haven't been painted in 20 years. They have light grain and are pretty slick/smooth. It's one of those situations where you just drop the first coat and try not to touch it aside from graining a bit with the brush because the paint doesn't want to stick.
> 
> ...


We usually use SW PC Alkyd -- should not need to be thinned -- with good results. It comes off the brush nice and does produce a great looking finish. But yeah, if you are trying to go white over yellowed out existing enamel, one coat isn't likely to happen. Time to recoat is spec'd at 24 hours, so I would expect a second coat to gum up as it "re-wets" the first coat if you go back at it too soon.

We have also used the new SW PC waterborne alkyd "hybrid" a few times and it seems to give a little more latitide for a color change -- I remember demoing it at a SW "product day" covering "antique white" with extra white in one coat and vice-versa. If you look at the numbers, though, it leaves a thinner film and has less % solids than PC Alkyd. Hmmm, maybe the superior hide was just a matter of *expecting* it to cover better because that's how it was being demo'd. One drawback of the SW PC waterborne alkyd is that it is a little thinner than the straight alkyd and will catch in corners of raised panel doors and then run if you're not careful.

If you have the option to spray the doors, that might be your best bet if you really want to get one-coat hide of yellowed out enamel. The ProShot handhelds are supposedly great for that, but I have no experience with them.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Normal Regal isn't great at absolute hide - I was helping a friend - and she re-primed the doors with freshstart to help improve hide on old doors. It took the full 2 coats of regal just to kill the white primer!!!!! If that makes any sense at all.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> I don't understand the problem with paint costs. The cost to do a job in my world is over 90% labor, the materials costs is nothing really. Plus, the customer pays for the materials, so who cares how much it costs, unless you are bidding against a lot of people, and your chosen clientele (gc's, etc) awards jobs on price alone.
> 
> And yes, I use Ben Moore almost exclusively.


Since I did not read all the posts, this may have been said. The costs do matter to me. If I can get a similar product at $10.00 or more dollars less, that goes into my pocket. (and it's usually more) 

Now that may not sound like much, but if you go through just 10 gallons a week, that is $100 dollars. 50 weeks a year, that is $5000.00. It's not just paint, I watch the value (not solely cost) on everything. PPG and SW agressively go after my business, why not take advantage. Other than Aura, what does BM have that I really need? Everybody makes a good product.

That said, to the original post:

 BM is a subsidary of Berkshire Hathaway. (Warren Buffet) It has to return a set profit from its sales to the parent company. Unlike SW that controls the manufacture, distribution and owns it own stores, BM has independant dealers that add another layer of business that has to turn a profit. 

PPG has both it's own stores and independants, but is the second largest paint manufacturer in the world. They have economy of scale.

Last, BM seems to market itself to the high end consumer, if you have them, pass the cost along.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I loves me some Ben Moore, and I can spec pretty much any product of theirs no matter the budget. If I can't then the job is most likely not for me.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Kelley moore's Dura-Poxy will cover if shot white over yellow,dries hard,easy to work with,I love it for doors,trim,int or ext,we use it for all kinds of things,fascia boards,garage dors,siding,walls,ceilings,closets


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## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

You will use it because Warren Buffet says:yes: you will!


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

propainterJ said:


> Kelley moore's Dura-Poxy will cover if shot white over yellow,dries hard,easy to work with,I love it for doors,trim,int or ext,we use it for all kinds of things,fascia boards,garage dors,siding,walls,ceilings,closets


Thanks for the suggestion but it appears that Kelly Moore isn't really sold east of the Mississippi.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Oops,sorry.We had to use a BM product for a cabinet back in April,they wanted 66 dollars for it so my Boss went with the next in line,freaking incredible,66 bucks for a gallon of paint.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

propainterJ said:


> Oops,sorry.We had to use a BM product for a cabinet back in April,they wanted 66 dollars for it so my Boss went with the next in line,freaking incredible,66 bucks for a gallon of paint.


Much depends on the store and the area. I dont have a single BM gallon in my shop for that much.  


Get used to it though im sorry to say. Once the rest of the manufacturers are forced into "greener" products, $60 cans of paint wont be uncommon at all.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Get used to it though im sorry to say. Once the rest of the manufacturers are forced into "greener" products, $60 cans of paint wont be uncommon at all.


Maryland was a "non-voc" state long before most. The other guys were still more affordable. Becoming "green" will not add much if any to the cost of paint. Not enough to justify the huge difference in cost of BM and the others.

Personally, who cares? If they want it, they pay for it. If I want a great covering paint for difficult colors, I'll buy Aura. If I need an alkyd that is easy to work with and looks great I'll buy Advance. Other than that BM doesn't have anything exciting to me. (Well.....Ultra Spec seems really nice but my local dealers are already saying they arern't going to stock it)

Look, BM has a niche with the gennex tints and is exploiting it. They should, but if and when everyone else jumps on that bandwagon, they will have to change pricing structure to compete. It's business.

(What are they going to do if somebody makes a giant technological step in front of them?)


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Not likely*



bikerboy said:


> Maryland was a "non-voc" state long before most. The other guys were still more affordable. Becoming "green" will not add much if any to the cost of paint. Not enough to justify the huge difference in cost of BM and the others.
> 
> Personally, who cares? If they want it, they pay for it. If I want a great covering paint for difficult colors, I'll buy Aura. If I need an alkyd that is easy to work with and looks great I'll buy Advance. Other than that BM doesn't have anything exciting to me. (Well.....Ultra Spec seems really nice but my local dealers are already saying they arern't going to stock it)
> 
> ...


"Giant technological leaps" generally don't happen in the paint business. It's usually incremental steps. I don't think BM's pricing structure is set on how much they can exploit their name brand. It's more likely they have strict quality standards at every price point. Given how fast raw material prices are going up, and the chronic shortage of TiO2, it's amazing that BM prices aren't higher.

Zero VOC paints aren't any more expensive to produce than standard paints, but reformulating costs must be figured in. It costs at least $400,000 in R&D to get a high end paint right, maybe more for exterior coatings. That money must be amortized over the life of the paint formula, which may not be very long, given the changing VOC regulations.


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> "Giant technological leaps" generally don't happen in the paint business. It's usually incremental steps. I don't think BM's pricing structure is set on how much they can exploit their name brand. It's more likely they have strict quality standards at every price point. Given how fast raw material prices are going up, and the chronic shortage of TiO2, it's amazing that BM prices aren't higher.
> 
> Zero VOC paints aren't any more expensive to produce than standard paints, but reformulating costs must be figured in. It costs at least $400,000 in R&D to get a high end paint right, maybe more for exterior coatings. That money must be amortized over the life of the paint formula, which may not be very long, given the changing VOC regulations.


 
Considering the fact that German and Dutch manufactures have been light years ahead of BM in the devolpment/formulating of paints, why can't they copy for want of a better word theirs. Leaving aside small differences, weather, substrates etc it is generally maufactured the same. 30 years ago the Dutch had the 'new' waterborne technology. Hardly a giant technological leap.VOC complaints don't cut the mustard. 

The fact that these companies, including Dulux (dutch) this side of the pond, dragged their feet for years while creaming the market, now have to pay 400k to reformulate a product gave me a break.

Big paint compaines are exploiting the market place by coming out with this rubbish. True there is a big demand for raw materials(China, India etc) but this is robbery of the highest order. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Zero VOC paints aren't any more expensive to produce than standard paints, but reformulating costs must be figured in. It costs at least $400,000 in R&D to get a high end paint right, maybe more for exterior coatings. That money must be amortized over the life of the paint formula, which may not be very long, given the changing VOC regulations.


Great points.

Although I would argue that once we get below 50 VOC - as most are now - that reformulation to lower VOC is almost pointless...like 1 calorie coke instead of zero. I have finicky customers that sleep in their bedrooms the same night that I paint them because a few hours after the paint dries, there is no smell. I'm using Aura or ben, not Natura.


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

cardwizzard said:


> Considering the fact that German and Dutch manufactures have been light years ahead of BM in the devolpment/formulating of paints, why can't they copy for want of a better word theirs. Leaving aside small differences, weather, substrates etc it is generally maufactured the same. 30 years ago the Dutch had the 'new' waterborne technology. Hardly a giant technological leap.VOC complaints don't cut the mustard.
> 
> The fact that these companies, including Dulux (dutch) this side of the pond, dragged their feet for years while creaming the market, now have to pay 400k to reformulate a product gave me a break.
> 
> Big paint compaines are exploiting the market place by coming out with this rubbish. True there is a big demand for raw materials(China, India etc) but this is robbery of the highest order. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.


It's a common misconception that paints can be "copied". They can't. You can do a rough analysis about the raw materials, even guess at some of the ratios, but you can't reverse engineer a paint formula. Even if you could, it wouldn't do you any good because proprietary manufacturing techniques often crucial.

Europeans had a leg up on Americans when it came to VOC content, simply because VOC mandates came out much earlier in Europe. They have resins that are very difficult to formulate in the US simply because there is a lack of
compatible additives in America.

As far as expense is concerned, it is generally true in the paint business that you get what you pay for. There's a European paint company whose name escapes me that charges $100/gallon and needs certified painters. They serves a very exclusive clientele. Do they get away with $100 on mere hype? Are all their customers stupid snobs who like the idea of paying double for a can of paint? I doubt it. There must be a serious quality/durability factor they value.

Paint formulating and testing is very expensive. You also have to factor in all the formulating time that doesn't result in a commercially successful product. It's kind of like investing in a Broadway show.


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> It's a common misconception that paints can be "copied". They can't. You can do a rough analysis about the raw materials, even guess at some of the ratios, but you can't reverse engineer a paint formula. Even if you could, it wouldn't do you any good because proprietary manufacturing techniques often crucial.
> 
> Europeans had a leg up on Americans when it came to VOC content, simply because VOC mandates came out much earlier in Europe. They have resins that are very difficult to formulate in the US simply because there is a lack of
> compatible additives in America.
> ...


 
Firstly, I don't know that much about paint formulas, although probably more than your average Joe, so you have me there.

Lets be brutally honest, paint to manufacture is very very cheap. If BM can sell paint at $60 fair play to them. But lets get rid of this myth, its because they are green hence cost more, thats nonsense. At the end of the day they have shareholders to pay.

My point is that for years they didn't invest in R&D sufficently to see what may come down the line. As far as the VOC changes in Europe, you are way wide of the mark. 2010 saw the first real changes in decades. If they had have put an effort in to R&D it was obivious that the would have went down the line they are now heading.

Take C2 for instance. I believe the head chemist from P&L wanted to devolp a new line of paints and the company didn't back him, so he branched out on his own. This is my point about major paint companies, they were very happy to cream the market while they had to be looking to the future. Now it's a game of catch up. What way is that to run a company?


And while I agree you do get what you pay for, alot of it is hype with clever marketing. F&B was bought for £1m and sold for £140m 10 years or so later. Why? Very clever marketing and push it as a snobby paint, which designers love. Me I think its an average paint, but customers are wooed by it.

The company you may be thinking of is Fine Paints of Europe.

Nothing personal Paint Chemist, I like a lot of what you say. And its nothing against individual paint companies but the shi8 they speel is unbelievable.

Rant over.:thumbsup:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> It's a common misconception that paints can be "copied". They can't. You can do a rough analysis about the raw materials, even guess at some of the ratios, but you can't reverse engineer a paint formula. Even if you could, it wouldn't do you any good because proprietary manufacturing techniques often crucial.
> 
> Europeans had a leg up on Americans when it came to VOC content, simply because VOC mandates came out much earlier in Europe. They have resins that are very difficult to formulate in the US simply because there is a lack of
> compatible additives in America.
> ...



This is absolutely correct. We're still catching up to the Europeans. $100+ cans of paint in Europe arent uncommon at all, not to mention that in some countries you actually need a degree, plus an apprenticeship to become a painter. Excellent products @ $100+ per gal, that are extremely difficult to work with.....


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> This is absolutely correct. We're still catching up to the Europeans. $100+ cans of paint in Europe arent uncommon at all, not to mention that in some countries you actually need a degree, plus an apprenticeship to become a painter. Excellent products @ $100+ per gal, that are extremely difficult to work with.....


 
Thats my point about playing catch up. Major paint players did nothing but cash in for years, no research or anticipation of what was to happen. Now its the blame game.

Maybe you could tell us which countries you actually need a degree and an apprenticeship to become a painter.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

cardwizzard said:


> Maybe you could tell us which countries you actually need a degree and an apprenticeship to become a painter.


The Netherlands is one for sure


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Sweden used to be, don't know if it still is. I worked with an old swede when I first started. "Vat kind of Vood do you vant it to look like? Pecan - No problem!"
Pretty impressive.


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Much depends on the store and the area. I dont have a single BM gallon in my shop for that much.
> 
> 
> Get used to it though im sorry to say. Once the rest of the manufacturers are forced into "greener" products, $60 cans of paint wont be uncommon at all.


 yes thats why i'm stock piling high voc semi gloss. Also do they still make aqua glo. I'm being serious. I like it but have not seen it in years. 4 me that was(is) the best trim paint! It leveled like I never was even there:yes:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> I don't understand the problem with paint costs. The cost to do a job in my world is over 90% labor, the materials costs is nothing really. Plus, the customer pays for the materials, so who cares how much it costs, unless you are bidding against a lot of people, and your chosen clientele (gc's, etc) awards jobs on price alone.
> 
> And yes, I use Ben Moore almost exclusively.


my guess: If your rates are low enough, materials could be 50%? :blink:

I too dont understand this ongoing complaint. Its a cost. Costs are passed on. 

It is a good thing we arent in other trades where materails legitimately are 50%.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

alan said:


> yes thats why i'm stock piling high voc semi gloss. Also do they still make aqua glo. I'm being serious. I like it but have not seen it in years. 4 me that was(is) the best trim paint! It leveled like I never was even there:yes:


Aquaglo the name is gone...its now Regal Semi-gloss. Although the Regal is 100% acrylic, and the old Aquaglo wasn't. You should try Ben Semi...very similar to Aquaglo.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I used BM for quite a few years when I was early into this gig and my biggest complaint is and was the stores, yes they have good service but in my area they have like 4 stores but since they are all independents the pricing was very different. The place I used was good because of our history but another store would be quite higher, so if I was on the other side of town it is rather inconvenient. 
I use a lot of PPG products and lately SW has been getting my business as well and the nice thing about SW is no matter what store I go into they can pull my pricing and you can return anything at any store because they are all on the same system. 

With that said I have been using some BM lately as well because it was spec, It has been nice buying in there too even though they are higher they all know me in there already from the past.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Help me out guys. 

In Canada, BM is all franchised and marketed heavily to the consumer as a high end paint. Other than crazy **** Like Farrow and Ball, etc. basically the top paint you can buy is BM Aura. It is priced high and there are minimal discounts for contractors, even ones doing decent volume. 

Someone told me that it is completely different in the US and that it is more of a contractor paint and that it marketed more to designers and painters than to consumers. Any truth to that? Love to know what the retail is on a gallon of Aura. We pay about $75 CDN retail.


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*storage conditions*



alan said:


> yes thats why i'm stock piling high voc semi gloss. Also do they still make aqua glo. I'm being serious. I like it but have not seen it in years. 4 me that was(is) the best trim paint! It leveled like I never was even there:yes:


Stockpiling is a good idea, but be careful about how you store it. It's got to be "goldilocks": not too cold (above freezing for waterborne paints), not too hot (not on a top shelf). Check your expiration dates. Most paints will go beyond, but it's best to use and replace as the expiration date comes near.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Aura is $50 contractor and 62 retail.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Well that sucks considering our dollar is higher than yours but no point in bitching about it.
Is Aura generally considered the "best" paint out there? I ask simply out of interest.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Probably all the VAT stuff you have built in. No value added tax here yet.

As far as aura being the best, I love it. Some hate it. I feel it is the best wall paint from the usual manufacturers. Not sue if some European stuff might be better.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Unfortunately that is our price before tax. But like I said, that is a completely different issue. 

BM Aura is generally considered the top paint here and what we recommend for customers wanting an upgrade in paint. We have had an issue with it not covering in two coats (like it is guaranteed to) with one of the whites over brown walls. Other brands have their high end paints but they are not nearly as widely marketed to consumers as BM Aura is.

If a customer asked for the best paint they could get am I right in assuming the general answer would be BM Aura? There would be very few painters up here that would give a different answer.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

WarlinePainting said:


> Unfortunately that is our price before tax. But like I said, that is a completely different issue.
> 
> BM Aura is generally considered the top paint here and what we recommend for customers wanting an upgrade in paint. We have had an issue with it not covering in two coats (like it is guaranteed to) with one of the whites over brown walls. Other brands have their high end paints but they are not nearly as widely marketed to consumers as BM Aura is.
> 
> If a customer asked for the best paint they could get am I right in assuming the general answer would be BM Aura? There would be very few painters up here that would give a different answer.


Depends on who you ask I guess, To me Aura is the best but then I really have no clue as I don't use other brands. 

From what I understand is before dealers are able to sell Aura they had to agree not to go below the 50 buck range. I'm pretty sure the dealer cost is close to 30 bucks. Maybe NCPaint will chime in  

I have been using nothing but Aura on my exterior wood since 2008 now. Really happy with it but it still fades. Specially colors with the yellows in it. But over all I'm really happy with it. I still use moorelife for all my stucco and regal for interior walls. 

Pat


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

WarlinePainting said:


> Unfortunately that is our price before tax. But like I said, that is a completely different issue.
> 
> BM Aura is generally considered the top paint here and what we recommend for customers wanting an upgrade in paint. We have had an issue with it not covering in two coats (like it is guaranteed to) with one of the whites over brown walls. Other brands have their high end paints but they are not nearly as widely marketed to consumers as BM Aura is.
> 
> If a customer asked for the best paint they could get am I right in assuming the general answer would be BM Aura? There would be very few painters up here that would give a different answer.


I think Aura is probably the best interior paint here. Exterior, no.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> Depends on who you ask I guess, To me Aura is the best but then I really have no clue as I don't use other brands.
> 
> From what I understand is before dealers are able to sell Aura they had to agree not to go below the 50 buck range. I'm pretty sure the dealer cost is close to 30 bucks. Maybe NCPaint will chime in
> 
> ...


Correct sir.  you have to keep in mind our cost is not just the product itself. Colorant also has to be factored in. Some colors require $10-$12 in colorant alone. Most midtones which seem to be popular lately are in the $4-$6 range. Aura uses much more colorant per gallon than normal products.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

WarlinePainting said:


> Unfortunately that is our price before tax. But like I said, that is a completely different issue.
> 
> BM Aura is generally considered the top paint here and what we recommend for customers wanting an upgrade in paint. We have had an issue with it not covering in two coats (like it is guaranteed to) with one of the whites over brown walls. Other brands have their high end paints but they are not nearly as widely marketed to consumers as BM Aura is.
> 
> If a customer asked for the best paint they could get am I right in assuming the general answer would be BM Aura? There would be very few painters up here that would give a different answer.


I've been running some Aura tests lately on whites for trim paint, although hide should be about the same as we are adding significant colorant. White is not hiding that well over darker colors. I have a dark green with three coats of white Aura on it and the green is still slightly visible. The BAD news is that the other paints in the test are about the same or slightly worse in performance.

Having said that, I've done tan over maroon and brown over pink in Aura in a single coat with 100% coverage. Much depends on the formulation and I haven't found a reliable predictor aside from applying a bit. We're going to keep tinkering with the formulation to try and get better hide, but if I had a job tomorrow with white over a dark color I think we'd probably just prime first and maybe go with ben over Aura.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback on the coverage. This lends itself to the other thread about having a good relationship with your paint store. We changed BM stores after this issue because they didn't stand behind their product. It cost us money on that job but they cost them way more in lost revenue from us in the end.


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