# Spraying BM Advance question



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Advance semi has the look I want to achieve if I can get it to lay out properly. Not getting runs, but minor orange peel. It's not terrible, but not where I want it to be.

The orange peel is maybe 1/8" to 1/4" size. Can't seem to get rid of it either by thinning or with BM extender. I have achieved glass-smooth finishes with Advance semi before this, on verticals, with the same setup. 

Spraying some 5" flat casings and 8" base. Using an AAA (both Binks AA-1500 with 0.009", 9" fan, fine finish tip), and also a Kremlin MVX with a CAT 0207FF, 0.007", 4" fan, fine finish tip). Results are about the same with both guns. Fluid pressure is 1200psi, the Advance is thinned 15% with water, and I've maxed out the BM extender at 8 oz per gallon. The extender doesn't seem to do much.

My theory is that it's too hot -- the surface temperature is 85 F, and the Advance is not flowing out. Seems like it lays out a little smoother the thicker I put it on.

My other theory is that it takes a higher pressure to really atomize this stuff. Does straight airless, say with a 310FF at 2000 psi, work better with Advance than an AAA at 1200 psi? Never seen that before, but maybe it's worth a shot.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've had good results spraying advance with an airless, not thinned at all. The TDS recommends 1,500 - 2,000 psi and a minimum orifice size of .011. 

I know its common practice for some people to use smaller orifice tips than recommended, and to thin and use additives. I wonder though what effect smaller orifice tips do to the material, it seems there would be some reason why they recommend certain sizes.... I wonder if there is a risk of atomizing to much? Or something?


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks -- I wonder if airless actually works better than AAA for Advance. 

I know that sometimes smaller tips can shear the material more, or create micro bubbles. From experience, it depends on the coating and what defoaming agents it contains, etc.
I've had these problems with other coatings, but not with Advance. 

I've moved to smaller tips because it gives me more control, and better atomization, which I think I want...I have never trusted the TDS sheets because it seems like manufacturers always write down the same tip size ranges for every paint, without even testing. Usually the tip sizes they recommend are way too big -- like 0.017" to 0.019", for example. Maybe BM actually tested Advance, since 0.011" makes some sense. On the other hand, it's a standard tip size in wood finishing with waterbornes. 

I tried spraying it straight, but got the orange peel, which I was able to improve somewhat by thinning. Normally, that's how I eliminate it.

I'll try some of my larger tips and see what happens.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

It defineatly has a learning curve. Tommy AKA Straight Lines is the BM Advance guy here. I'm sure he will be along sooner or later.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

We have done quite a bit with good results. Airless, 2200-2400 psi 210-411 tips. Always looks like glass.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I Use advance with an AAA (graco Finishpro 395) and I don't add water to it at all. I have used BM extender on it without any problems ( only use small amounts of it). Advance is design for being sprayed. It could be the hot weather; it's drying to fast and its not getting enough time to level out.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Hello All, I am back.

I can lurk no more.

READ THE TDS. Extender is NOT for Advance, its not the same resin.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Paint Talk


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Lower pressure.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I was going to suggest that as well Scott. Start really low and bump it up until the tails disappear.

Is this a repaint or new work? What primer did you use? Where are you located? Environmental conditions can cause lots of bad/strange things to happen to advance. Mostly in my experience it is high heat and high humidity.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> We have done quite a bit with good results. Airless, 2200-2400 psi 210-411 tips. Always looks like glass.


I have to agree with Excel. We have sprayed it many times. The last time was a week ago. Cabinet doors hung up in a garage. Temperature in garage at about 105. 2000-2200 psi a 310 ff tip and the Advance semi gloss looked liked factory fiinish. Go with an airless next time.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Jmayspaint: Thanks -- you are correct in the orifice spec for airless and thinning, from the TDS.

more_prep: Try to keep it short, ok? Thanks.

Excel: Always great to hear about setups that produce good results.

Gotdibz: What are your tip and fluid pressure? I think I agree with you that it's the weather. 85F and extremely humid. See TDS snippets below. I would have thought the humidity would help slow down the flash-off, so it would have more time to level out, but maybe it changes the relative rate of evaporation of water and co-solvents. At high humidity, maybe the co-solvents evaporate at their usual rate, leaving behind more water, without co-solvents to help it flow out.

Roominaday: The irony. I stared at the fine print on the BM extender bottle carefully, thinking exactly that -- Advance is not an acrylic resin. But, the BM extender label says it works in "all waterborne paints." It does say it contains BM resins. Nothing in the TDS or the extender label says not to use it in Advance, but your reasoning makes sense. I used it because BM makes a variety of waterborne paints that must use all kinds of different resins, thinking that it worked like glycol to slow the evaporation of water. It didn't seem to hurt anything, but I don't think it retarded drying either. Don't think this is the cause of the orange peel, but I think I agree with you.

VermontPainter/Scott: Thanks, will give lower pressure a shot. Like 600 psi? 400 psi? Do you think I'm blowing paint
around on the surface to create the orange peel? That could be true...Also, automotive painters know that holding the gun too far away causes orange peel, so that would not be an option -- pressure must be reduced.

Straightlines/Tommy: Yes, this is a repaint, but I stripped the casings to bare wood, sanded, and primed. They are pine, from the 1860's, with some open grained areas and knots. I primed 2x with BIN (sprayed), sanded, primed again with BM Kem Aqua Plus surfacer, then sanded to 400 (did this to fill grain, sprays nicely, dries level and quick, power sands well). Pretty much automotive level prep, very smooth and flat (power sanded). Some areas had a prior coat of Advance that did the same thing (same setup and similar weather), which was wet-sanded flat before this coat. Some areas sanded through to primer, but couldn't see any of those areas after spraying Advance. 

The weather was hot and very humid. I'm in MA. Surface temp. was 85F and humidity was probably in the mid-80's percent range.
I agree with you that weather is a top suspect.

Zoomer: Thanks -- will do some tests with straight airless with your rec. setup. Your results show high temperatures don't seem to cause orange peel. From the TDS below, it looks like humidity is a problem, but it's not clear whether they mean for drying or finish quality.


Everything below From the Advance Semigloss TDS:

Extra ventilation is necessary under humid conditions to speed the dry time of Advance, especially when the paint is applied over sealed, hard, non-porous surfaces. The chart below is for general guidance.

Mild conditions
Dry (RH<50%), and Temperature between 70 ̊F and 90 ̊F
Advance will dry normally.
Dry to touch: 4-6 hours To Recoat: 16 hours

Severe conditions
(RH> 50%), and/or temperature between 50 ̊F and 70 ̊F
Advance will dry slower than normal unless the following is done to speed the dry time: Ventilate the room with a fan and/or turn on A/C to lower the humidity.

Very severe conditions
RH> 85%, or temperature < 50 ̊F
Do not apply Advance

Spray, Airless: 
Fluid Pressure — 1,500 - 2,500 PSI; Tip — .011 - .015 Orifice

Thinning is unnecessary, but if required to obtain desired application properties, a small amount of clean water may be added. Never add other paints or solvents.


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## KD PAINTING (Nov 8, 2012)

Great product, just need an experienced sprayer guy to apply, otherwise you'll regret it. If done properly, it comes out looking beautiful.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm guessing larger tip, less thinning, perhaps wider fan, and yes the temps are killer. My BM rep says not to use extender in advance. 

Good luck


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Damon T said:


> I'm guessing larger tip, less thinning, perhaps wider fan, and yes the temps are killer. My BM rep says not to use extender in advance.
> 
> Good luck


Thanks for the info.
I think Benjamin Moore should update the label on their extender and the Advance TDS to make this clear. It is not clear right now.

Regarding thinning, got the same orange peel unthinned, which is why I thinned...but I also noticed that over-thinning results in a kind of "micro curtaining" or a mottled surface that resembles orange peel. This is not the problem I think I'm seeing, which looks more like what you get from an HVLP when the paint viscosity is too high (but not that bad).


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I run my AAA in Airless mode bring the pressure to 800-900, test the spray pattern on card board. I turn it up to around 1200 stop any spitting, then turn on the Compressor to fine tune the spray pattern and get rid of any tails. I usually stay around 1200-1500 PSI range: I usually run on the low side when it comes to pressure. I use all Fine Finish tips (green tips) without many problems; just fine tune it to the tip you are using.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've had good results spraying advance with an airless, not thinned at all. The TDS recommends 1,500 - 2,000 psi and a minimum orifice size of .011.
> 
> I know its common practice for some people to use smaller orifice tips than recommended, and to thin and use additives. I wonder though what effect smaller orifice tips do to the material, it seems there would be some reason why they recommend certain sizes.... I wonder if there is a risk of atomizing to much? Or something?


Yes, after some reading, over-atomizing may cause faster drying in waterbornes, which could result in orange peel. I guess this is one reason larger orifices are recommended for waterbornes (aside from foaming and micro bubbles). 

Maybe this is why Scott (VermontPainter) recommended lowering the pressure.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Gotdibz said:


> I run my AAA in Airless mode bring the pressure to 800-900, test the spray pattern on card board. I turn it up to around 1200 stop any spitting, then turn on the Compressor to fine tune the spray pattern and get rid of any tails. I usually stay around 1200-1500 PSI range: I usually run on the low side when it comes to pressure. I use all Fine Finish tips (green tips) without many problems; just fine tune it to the tip you are using.


Thanks for the setup info.
I'm used to spraying WB lacquers with my AAA guns at 400 to 600 psi fluid and 15 to 20 psi air, using 0.009" orifices. I don't have a good feel for paint with my AAA guns, though. I can't thin it like the WB lacquers, and it doesn't flow and level anything like them. When I spray paint, I seem to need higher fluid pressure to atomize it, similar to the range you are using. I've seen reports from other FinishPro users saying they also use 1200 psi fluid pressure when spraying paint...but with Advance I didn't see much difference between 600 psi and 1200 psi. I'll report back after more spraying.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

more_prep said:


> Thanks for the setup info.
> I'm used to spraying WB lacquers with my AAA guns at 400 to 600 psi fluid and 15 to 20 psi air, using 0.009" orifices. I don't have a good feel for paint with my AAA guns, though. I can't thin it like the WB lacquers, and it doesn't flow and level anything like them. When I spray paint, I seem to need higher fluid pressure to atomize it, similar to the range you are using. I've seen reports from other FinishPro users saying they also use 1200 psi fluid pressure when spraying paint...but with Advance I didn't see much difference between 600 psi and 1200 psi. I'll report back after more spraying.


 
Those pumps you are using I have no experience with, I think those are diaphragm pumps. The rigs you are using are design for lower pressures. My input might not work for your particular setups. Good luck, hope you figure it out.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks Gotdibz - the pumps I use for AAA are an old Nordson 16:1 model 25B air driven piston pump (all stainless, pretty nice pump), and a Graco 395 ST Pro electric. I can get up 1600 psi with the Nordson and I think 3300 psi with the graco, but my AAA guns only go up 1500 nd 1750 psi...these work ok. The Graco G40 gun you have wth the FinishPro is like my Kremlin MVX and Binks AA1500 guns, except you probably have a switch tip, with a different style aircap... so it might be a little different. In one of VermontPainter's videos, they seemed to be moving a lot slower when spraying trim with the FinishPro than I have to...


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

JMays/Excel/Straightlines/Zoomer: Straight airless with a Graco RAC X 310FF kicks a$$. Tried it last night. Sprayed from the same batch of 20% thinned Advance and got better results at pressures from 800 - 1800 psi than my AAA setups (surface temp 80F). 800 psi showed no tails and seemed adequate. Still have some very minor orange peel, but maybe it's telegraphing through from prior coats (as Tommy suggested), even though I sanded them totally flat before spraying this coat. The variation in thickness from the orange peel in previous coats might cause the porosity to have an orange peel pattern, even though the surface is flat. Not sure how to get rid of it. I ran out of prepped samples (all had previous orange peeled coats), so I'll try it on some fresh, unpainted stuff tonight to test this theory. 

In any case, the airless lays it out smoothly, and with a better appearance than the AAA. There are no microbubbles, so it feels smoother, and the sheen is more uniform without cloudiness. Seems like a good idea to avoid using air. Also, I didn't get any runs, since the pattern is more uniform than my AAA. Didn't have to move any faster than with the AAA -- seemed easy. (I probably need to tweak my AAA setup with a larger tip orifice and lower pressure.) Also need to try spraying it unthinned again. 

More later...thanks to all for the help so far. Also, these AAA comments might not apply to the FinishPro, since it by default comes with the same RAC X FF tip setup as the airless.

Another question -- how long do I need to wait before masking the trim, after spraying Advance on the trim? I like to spray walls if I can.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I wait overnight before masking. This job was a repaint, scuffed existing oil, sprayed one coat of BM 046 primer, very light sand, sprayed two coats of advanced, no thinning, airless spray, masked the next day with yellow frog, sprayed walls:


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I wait overnight before masking. This job was a repaint, scuffed existing oil, sprayed one coat of BM 046 primer, very light sand, sprayed two coats of advanced, no thinning, airless spray, masked the next day with yellow frog, sprayed walls:
> 
> View attachment 18157


Looks awesome - where I wanna be. Did the yellow frog leave any marks on the Advance? Looks like it didn't. Personally I think one should suffer more for results like that! Did you sand between coats of Advance? Great to see a system that works without extensive labor. Thanks for the inspiration.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

No sanding between coats of advanced. Sprayed both coats within about an hour, or as soon as it had completely dried to the touch. Granted the existing oil was pretty smooth to begin with.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

more_prep said:


> JMays/Excel/Straightlines/Zoomer: Straight airless with a Graco RAC X 310FF kicks a$$. Tried it last night. Sprayed from the same batch of 20% thinned Advance and got better results at pressures from 800 - 1800 psi than my AAA setups (surface temp 80F). 800 psi showed no tails and seemed adequate. Still have some very minor orange peel, but maybe it's telegraphing through from prior coats (as Tommy suggested), even though I sanded them totally flat before spraying this coat. The variation in thickness from the orange peel in previous coats might cause the porosity to have an orange peel pattern, even though the surface is flat. Not sure how to get rid of it. I ran out of prepped samples (all had previous orange peeled coats), so I'll try it on some fresh, unpainted stuff tonight to test this theory.
> 
> In any case, the airless lays it out smoothly, and with a better appearance than the AAA. There are no microbubbles, so it feels smoother, and the sheen is more uniform without cloudiness. Seems like a good idea to avoid using air. Also, I didn't get any runs, since the pattern is more uniform than my AAA. Didn't have to move any faster than with the AAA -- seemed easy. (I probably need to tweak my AAA setup with a larger tip orifice and lower pressure.) Also need to try spraying it unthinned again.
> 
> ...


I should have done a search for some of my old trial and error threads when you first posted. Its the exact same set up I was using that had the most success. I was able to do doors with a 410 as well without much fuss. 

Here is one of those threads. I have used all of these types of enamels I can get my hands on and Advance has a better finish than any.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

True to the words of Straight_lines! Plus advanced touches up very nicely.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> True to the words of Straight_lines! Plus advanced touches up very nicely.


Excellent touch up!


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

More results on the orange peel problem:

After switching to airless with Graco RAC X 310FFT, still have the problem.

If I turn up the pressure from 2000 to 3000 psi, that helps. It does seem to flow out after hitting the surface, and there is a time before flash-off when it looks like a mirror, with no dimpling. Then faint dimples appear as it dries. Overnight, the coat seems to shrink a bit, reducing the dimpling. It feels perfectly smooth. In the end, results might be acceptable to many, but in glancing light there is dimple pattern that just bugs me. I know it can be better. WB lacquers don't do this.

I'm now spraying the Advance Semi unreduced. If I lay it on heavy, something like 10 wet mils, it flows out smooth, no orange peel. If I lay it on too light, it does not flow out and there is orange peel. The problem with heavy coats is curtaining. I think I put it on at about 4-5 wet mils usually. I don't get runs, and it flows out. I might be putting it on too heavy; not sure.
BM tech support told me orange peel is caused by over-application.

Here is what I've eliminated:

1. Underlying surface: Samples sprayed on vinyl flashing (perfectly smooth non-porous surface) show the same orange peel.

2. Weather: Orange peel at 86F 85% RH and same at 72F 56% RH.
I guess I haven't tried hot, dry weather. Need to order some up.

3. Thinning: BM tech support says to only thin with water up to 8oz/gal (6%). Thinned 20% (before I knew), got traces of orange peel. Next option is to try 3% and 6% thinning.

4. Pressure: Low pressure is worse. 1200 psi is bad, 2000 psi better, and 3000 psi has the least orange peel. Seems to indicate it may still be under- atomized. This makes me want to thin it.

5. Batch: The Advance is about 1.5 years old, and I get the same results with newer paint. Not a likely suspect.

I also get orange peel spraying SW ProClassic Acrylic-Alkyd unreduced, same setup at 3000 psi, but it goes away overnight as the coating shrinks.

Any more ideas? 

Thanks again.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Gun filter size?


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Gun filter size?


I think medium mesh. New Spraytech 2GX two finger gun with white filter (what it comes with). First time used.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

What type of primer are you using. I've had micro-bubbles form over CS and SW wall and wood. I've never had a problem with BM 023, 046 or stix.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> What type of primer are you using. I've had micro-bubbles form over CS and SW wall and wood. I've never had a problem with BM 023, 046 or stix.


Not getting microbubbles with the airless, but I used two coats of BIN followed by a coat or two of Kem Aqua plus surfacer...I don't think the orange peel is due to surface prep because it looks the same on samples that I sprayed right on vinyl flashing. 

This makes me think that maybe the surface needs to be a little porous to absorb some paint, to prevent orange peel...
These surfaces are well-sealed.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I haven't used ka plus surfacer under advance. I have successfully used it under oil enamel, and of course ka+. That could be your problem, its a hot primer.

Testing out on repaint work where we sanded bare it would really soften the cheap acrylic that was there. The next day it sanded smooth and there were no further issues. 

Its not approved for anything but new work and using ka+ topcoats.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks - I agree using KA+ could be a risk. I do get the orange peel without a primer on smooth pieces of vinyl, and on pine with California primer (no KA+). There might be better primers to use with it, as Excel suggests, like BM 046 or stix (I think you reported good results with Stix). 

I sand up to 400, since it doesn't show scratches like 320. What grit do you sand up to?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

more_prep said:


> Thanks - I agree using KA+ could be a risk. I do get the orange peel without a primer on smooth pieces of vinyl, and on pine with California primer (no KA+). There might be better primers to use with it, as Excel suggests, like BM 046 or stix (I think you reported good results with Stix).
> 
> I sand up to 400, since it doesn't show scratches like 320. What grit do you sand up to?


046 sands like crap, it's a little better after a day or two. The longer time you give it the better. I think 400 would block up way to fast. I've had the best luck with the 3m purple pro-grade paper and sponges. Fine and extra fine sponges and 150 or 180 paper. Some scratching shows through after the first coat, but not the second. The good thing about 046 is, it levels out really nice so not a lot of sanding is necessary, and cleanup is easier. Then two sprayed coats of advanced w/o sanding in between and you should be good to go.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

We final sand high end trim to 320. 217 is a decent primer, it does really well on mud when used with BM wall /ceiling finishes.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> We final sand high end trim to 320. 217 is a decent primer, it does really well on mud when used with BM wall /ceiling finishes.


I haven't tried 217 yet with advanced, because I figured I should try to stay full on waterborne. I'm torn with 046. Sanding it can be frustrating. But it honestly doesn't need to be sanded much at all. Especially on repaints with a smooth existing substrate. On new raw wood or Sheetrock when sanding is more essential, then I can definitely see 217 being advantageous. I wish BM could make a waterborne primer that sands like 217. After getting used to advanced, I'm loving not using oils. Oil SI is ALMOST dead to me.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I wonder how the MLC Agualente surfacer would do. It sprays easily, and sands to a powder in 30 min. or so. I also use Becker Acroma Akvasurf - sands great, but that's another hot primer. Sometimes it bubbles stuff under/over it. The Advance seems to like Hydrocote primer/sealer, but that sands hard. Smart Prime sands pretty easy, but haven't tried Advance on it.
C2 Sandable Acrylic Primer didn't really sand well, or seal well.
I like SW Premium Wall and Wood, but haven't sprayed it or tried Advance on it. Sands to a powder, though. Still none beat BM oil base enamel underbody...as you were saying.

By the way, how long does Advance semi take to smooth out for you? It seems to be pulling tight more even after 24 hours. I suppose alkyds will do that, and maybe I won't have as much surface dimpling in the end. It's not too bad, but not yet glass smooth.

Do you guys crank the pressure all the way up, or shoot at more like 2000 psi?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Try using a 510 or 512 FFT. You get better atomization with a wider tip, as you are not dumping as much paint in any one area. I can probably dig up some technical data on this, our PDCA chapter had a master spray guy do a class for us recently. This was one of his main points, use a wider tip. So you use a little more paper and tape and paint, big deal. I ordered a 510 and 512 but haven't had any interior jobs yet to do them on. Have been only doing exteriors with this non stop 80 degree sunny weather. Oh yeah, forget I said that. It rains here all the time and nobody should think about moving here. Ever. ;-)


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

more_prep said:


> More results on the orange peel problem:
> 
> After switching to airless with Graco RAC X 310FFT, still have the problem.
> 
> ...



PROBLEM SOLVED (I think):

Everything was consistent with under-atomization. I finally got a glass-smooth finish without orange peel. The key was to move to a Graco RAC-X 208FFT at 3000 psi, airless, and thin the max. 8oz water per gallon of Advance. To avoid sags, keep coating thickness to at most two wet passes, overlapped 50%. Two wet passes overlapped 100% will run. Have not been using a tack coat. Didn't have any clogging issues with the 208FFT using a 150 mesh pump filter and medium 60 mesh gun filter. A 310FFT at 3000 psi still shows some orange peel in my use.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I hope that's some skinny trim with a 2-08. I wouldn't want to shoot a door with that. Thanks for the feedback!


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Damon T said:


> I hope that's some skinny trim with a 2-08. I wouldn't want to shoot a door with that. Thanks for the feedback!


Thanks for the help.

The 208FFT is a 4-5" wide pattern, so it's not bad for the 8" base I'm doing and the 5" casings. Lets me hit the edges and the base cap first, then fill in the middle to avoid runs. 

The smaller orifice is key, though. I arrived at this by comparing the finish quality from two brand new 411 and 413 tips (not FF), with Regal Select flat, on two identical pieces of vinyl flashing. While both had some texture, the 411 had less texture. I think it is generally known that smaller orifices atomize better, since they have to emit smaller droplets. That limits flow and your fan width, though, otherwise you would have to move a lot slower than accustomed to get a wet coat. 

I'm still curious about this question of over-atomization and drying in the air, and wondering whether large orifices that are often recommended actually work (like 417). They would kinda be throwing big fat drops on the surface, before they can dry at all in flight, and letting them flow together after they hit the surface. Almost as if rolled. I have never really tried to make large orifices work because I'd have to move a lot faster.

I did pick up a 512FFT based on your recommendation, but haven't tried it yet...

I also wonder why I'm complaining about orange peel with a 310FFT while the rest of you aren't...maybe it's because I'm coming from a WB lacquer cabinet type of approach and used to that.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Regarding why I'm having to thin Advance, and use smaller tips, while the rest of you don't, I wonder if this plays a role:

(from the SW Kem Aqua 280 PDS)

"A common property of water reducible alkyds, such as Kem Aqua 280, is a rise in viscosity (up t0 25%) over time. If this occurs, the product can be reduced with water to the desired application viscosity without any detrimental effects on performance. If the viscosity increases in excess of 25%, contact your local Sherwin Williams representative for assistance."

I really like S-W data sheets. They actually include test results, good application notes, and technical info. Other manufacturers often take a caveat emptor attitude. 

So maybe in the 1.5 years since the Advance I'm spraying was made, it has thickened a bit.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

more_prep said:


> I'm still curious about this question of over-atomization and drying in the air, and wondering whether large orifices that are often recommended actually work (like 417). They would kinda be throwing big fat drops on the surface, before they can dry at all in flight, and letting them flow together after they hit the surface. Almost as if rolled. I have never really tried to make large orifices work because I'd have to move a lot faster. I did pick up a 512FFT based on your recommendation, but haven't tried it yet... .


The cabinet coat TDS also suggests using a 5-19 or so tip. Crazy. I can't imagine anyone does it. I would think it would probably lay down fine, but you would have to move really quick not to get too heavy.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Not to mention waste a ton of paint.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Pressure setting:









Graco 395

Tip:









FF310

Results:



















Advanced satin, no thinning, ready to ship.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Looking good George!


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm glad you worked it all out, good job. I consider a 410 or 310 to be great for wb advance or alkyds such as impervo, or pro classic. I prefer to move gun a little faster and just over lap a small percentage more. I have watched someone spray seeing the gun move too slow and that piles the paint. But if a really small tip like o8 or o7 is used it may be dry spraying in a sense. I think 3 faster passes is better then 2 slower passes (using 410).

Pressure must be up for a good finish. I spray unthinned advance, over a hopefully sanded smooth primer, titan 440i or spraytech equivalent, always have glass results.


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## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

*Dry time betwen coats*



ExcelPaintingCo said:


> No sanding between coats of advanced. Sprayed both coats within about an hour, or as soon as it had completely dried to the touch. Granted the existing oil was pretty smooth to begin with.


With due respect to EXCEL the dry time between coats of advance is pretty important. What works for him may not work for you. Depending on your temp/humidity/color/sheen/ AND your cure time for fillers/primers underneath you may run into problems if you adopt this 1 day recoat system. It's working for him because he's recoating it so quick the 2nd coat is reactivating the 1st but this is a risky time game to play and you don't get the full value of two coats . . That said 1 coat of Advance is pretty robust so 2 full coats is sometimes overkill depending on your color and the substrate. The recommended dry time for Advance between coats is 16 hours depending on temp/humidity. Like oil, Advance stays tacky for a long time and continues to gas. EXCEL probably isn't sanding it because he CAN'T sand it that soon so unless you want to spray over settled debris you should wait and then sand it particularly something like a handrail. Re-spraying Advance too soon over anything gassing can easily ruin your project with a surprise of lovely little bubbles. Typically you're spraying something decorative. Fresh Advance also hates heat guns! ( or any direct heat ). It melts. If you DO get a run (not that it ever happens to me ;>} .. be patient and let it dry on it's own to the next day before fixing it.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

ridesarize said:


> I'm glad you worked it all out, good job. I consider a 410 or 310 to be great for wb advance or alkyds such as impervo, or pro classic. I prefer to move gun a little faster and just over lap a small percentage more. I have watched someone spray seeing the gun move too slow and that piles the paint. But if a really small tip like o8 or o7 is used it may be dry spraying in a sense. I think 3 faster passes is better then 2 slower passes (using 410).
> 
> Pressure must be up for a good finish. I spray unthinned advance, over a hopefully sanded smooth primer, titan 440i or spraytech equivalent, always have glass results.


Spraying over the Advance primer makes a huge difference as well. It's not a quick dry primer but it will work hand in hand with the finish . Sands nice levels out nice but it will run like the finish ya gotta watch your distance and travel...


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Spraying over the Advance primer makes a huge difference as well. It's not a quick dry primer but it will work hand in hand with the finish . Sands nice levels out nice but it will run like the finish ya gotta watch your distance and travel...


Oh I spay allot of Advance with the proshot & 211 tip ...


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

putlotson said:


> With due respect to EXCEL the dry time between coats of advance is pretty important. What works for him may not work for you. Depending on your temp/humidity/color/sheen/and your cure time for fillers/primers underneath you may run into problems if you adopt this 1 day recoat system. The recommended dry time for Advance between coats is 16 hours. Like oil, Advance stays tacky for a long time and continues to gas. Re-spraying Advance too soon over anything gassing can easily ruin your project with the surprise of lovely little bubbles. Typically you are also spraying something decorative when you use Advance. Another Advance property is it hates heat guns! ( or any direct heat ). If you DO get a run (not that it ever happens to me ;>} .. be patient let it dry on it's own to the next day before fixing it.


Do what works best for you. I've only experienced micro bubbles when spraying over solvent based primers. I spray a lot of advanced and can say the most important thing is to not.......put-lots-on........sorry, I couldn't resist!


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## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Do what works best for you. I've only experienced micro bubbles when spraying over solvent based primers. I spray a lot of advanced and can say the most important thing is to not.......put-lots-on........sorry, I couldn't resist!


My outlook is to help the less experienced and to learn from the more experienced. What works for all of us is due to our experience and on that I agree with Excel. "Do what works for you" so at the end I'll show what works for me. What works for the guys reading the thread who haven't had the benefit of experience is a different story. First of all, ALL coatings are solvent based. They all gas, waterborne or not... as due painters sometimes.. but I digress or I de-gass? Gotta cut out the turkey chili...Anyway there is a whole new risky world of what sticks to what. Alkyd resins have become part of waterborne films and a little curing time needs to be taken into consideration when layering fillers, primers and hybrids as was discussed earlier in this thread in regards to the better primers. If we want to achieve the highest level of finish possible we have to accept the handicaps such as dry times and maybe suffer a little in production rates. It means that when you take on an Advance or similar hybrid project you should have things to do between coats instead of Excel-erating the process. Oops... couldn't resist... After all the prep necessary to refinish a home's cabinetry , stairwell or recessed ceiling trim why would you want to risk a blown finish coat because you couldn't wait a day to let your work breath? Oh, and good luck with your warrantee at Benjamin Moore when you recoat the same day. Here's a few pictures of a recent Advance project. I use the exact same setup as Excel except I used a 210FF due to the nature of the project.

The coatings used were INSULX STIX primer sprayed in the am. First coat of Advance Cloud White Semi Gloss sprayed on the spindles and base in the Afternoon. 2nd coat of cc 40 sprayed the next morning. 1st coat of Universal Black Hi Gloss sprayed under and on top of the handrail the next day. Final coat of black sprayed the following day. Glass finish. Zero problems.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

The work looks good, you like nice. But its all a front, so obvious when you step on clients toes like that!...(completely joking, I've got no points to make)


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Good looking staircase, putlotson......I might even say it looks close to Excel-ent work. I didn't want to start a flame war by playing on your name. Although I do think most problems people have with Advanced is associated with applying too heavy coats. 

I can't disagree that following manufacturer specifications is the safest pathway to success. However it really isn't telling anyone here anything they can't figure out by reading the can. Back in the oil Impervo days, did you always wait over night between coats? I didn't, I would spray a light tack coat, then a heavy finish coat about 20-30 minutes later. I sprayed countless millwork packs this way and never had to file a warranty claim with BM as a result. This saved many days of production, and increased profit potential on fixed price projects.

My current system with Advanced is spray a full, but on the light side, coat. Allow to fully dry to the touch throughout the entire surface (no flashing spots). Then spray a heavier finish coat. In my environment the dry times between coats range from <hour to 2 hours+. I've been doing this for a couple years now, and it works for me. That is why I feel like it could add value for some on this forum to share. No offense to you and your system. Keep up the good work!


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

Zoomer said:


> I have to agree with Excel. We have sprayed it many times. The last time was a week ago. Cabinet doors hung up in a garage. Temperature in garage at about 105. 2000-2200 psi a 310 ff tip and the Advance semi gloss looked liked factory fiinish. Go with an airless next time.


Yep same for me size *10 tip with airless :thumbsup:


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## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Good looking staircase, putlotson......I might even say it looks close to Excel-ent work. I didn't want to start a flame war by playing on your name. Although I do think most problems people have with Advanced is associated with applying too heavy coats.
> 
> I can't disagree that following manufacturer specifications is the safest pathway to success. However it really isn't telling anyone here anything they can't figure out by reading the can. Back in the oil Impervo days, did you always wait over night between coats? I didn't, I would spray a light tack coat, then a heavy finish coat about 20-30 minutes later. I sprayed countless millwork packs this way and never had to file a warranty claim with BM as a result. This saved many days of production, and increased profit potential on fixed price projects.
> 
> My current system with Advanced is spray a full, but on the light side, coat. Allow to fully dry to the touch throughout the entire surface (no flashing spots). Then spray a heavier finish coat. In my environment the dry times between coats range from <hour to 2 hours+. I've been doing this for a couple years now, and it works for me. That is why I feel like it could add value for some on this forum to share. No offense to you and your system. Keep up the good work!


Thank you but I'm not sure about the "close to" clause!  As far as the name goes up until 1975 I worked for a major paint manufacturer. To avoid a promotion I naively quit to train with a German master painter. He spoke broken English and a few of his gripes were.. "Vat hav you bin doing all day .. homesteading?" and "Go to 7/11. Get me a "Biggun" and finally "put lotz on... put lotz on!" So there you have it. My company is not called "put lotz on" but the concept is profitable! Regarding Advance, you've helped a lot of guys by indicating you need to put just the right amount on. That is the key. I guess my point is "On what". Getting back to the guys who are working tomorrow and thinking "I just want to know the easiest way to spray colors and how much to charge. I usually work alone as was this staircase project although I work with fine master painters at times. Here's a couple tips. 1. For each color add 1 days work to your bid. 2. Never take on a spray job where the HO is not OK with disruption. 3. Colors. Be a gentleman with your designer and HO but don't trust either with colors. Make samples. 4. The last but most important tip from my master trainer... Paint the least seen surfaces first.

PS One final word. In my email tonight I rec'd this from the HO Advance staircase 

" am so happy that Elizabeth hooked us up!!! Your work is wonderful J 
Thanks for the pictures … Once we get the new carpeting in, I think it will look even better.

Take care, best wishes to you and your family for a Very Merry Christmas … and I will be in touch with you in the New Year!

 Merry Christmas EXCEL and everyone else spraying, brushing, rolling, and flinging........


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Put lots on.... Yes, my mentor emphasized that over and over. I was too stubborn to listen and didn't really get it till I had been on my own a while. 
Even with Advance, ya can't fear a run. The real trick is getting the paint to all 'run' the same way at the same time :ninja: ha


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

putlotson said:


> Thank you but I'm not sure about the "close to" clause!  As far as the name goes up until 1975 I worked for a major paint manufacturer. To avoid a promotion I naively quit to train with a German master painter. He spoke broken English and a few of his gripes were.. "Vat hav you bin doing all day .. homesteading?" and "Go to 7/11. Get me a "Biggun" and finally "put lotz on... put lotz on!" So there you have it. My company is not called "put lotz on" but the concept is profitable! Regarding Advance, you've helped a lot of guys by indicating you need to put just the right amount on. That is the key. I guess my point is "On what". Getting back to the guys who are working tomorrow and thinking "I just want to know the easiest way to spray colors and how much to charge. I usually work alone as was this staircase project although I work with fine master painters at times. Here's a couple tips. 1. For each color add 1 days work to your bid. 2. Never take on a spray job where the HO is not OK with disruption. 3. Colors. Be a gentleman with your designer and HO but don't trust either with colors. Make samples. 4. The last but most important tip from my master trainer... Paint the least seen surfaces first. PS One final word. In my email tonight I rec'd this from the HO Advance staircase " am so happy that Elizabeth hooked us up!!! Your work is wonderful J Thanks for the pictures … Once we get the new carpeting in, I think it will look even better. Take care, best wishes to you and your family for a Very Merry Christmas … and I will be in touch with you in the New Year! Merry Christmas EXCEL and everyone else spraying, brushing, rolling, and flinging........


Thank you for taking the time to tell your name- story and give your tips. I'm sure that someone with your experience can be very helpful on this forum, I hope you will continue to contribute! 
Merry Christmas!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

There's actually a science to recoating. We had one of the head spray trainers at Boeing come to our Pdca meeting to teach a class on spraying & atomization. If I remember correctly, waiting 1/2 of the "dry to touch" time allows 1/2 of the solvents to leave the coating, while still being wet enough to take on new coating without wrinkling etc. you want the coating to be tacky, where if you put your finger on a part that won't later be visible, when you pull off your finger it will have some grab. Too early and your finger just glides on the wet paint. Too late and it's dry to touch. 
Your next coat puts on more solids, building up mils, but since 1/2 the solvents of the first coat have evaporated it's not ****e to runs.


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## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

It used to be 2nd and 3rd coats were mandatory to achieve a solid color. Coatings like Advance cover so well often a 2nd coat is optional. The decision then boils down to how far you want to go and how much of your production budget has been consumed before the 2nd coat. Other variables dictate mastery of both systems. For example with my stairwell the flooring guys had to lay new floor before I got there (unfortunately). If it had gone the other way same day recoats would have been my choice to get done quicker. In that case I`d likely have cut the sheens from SG & H Gl to Pearl and SG because I wouldn't have the opportunity to add intermediate prep. We know each coat gets better but lot of times it's just going to burn up your profit. A connected topic is Aura and similar hi build - hi hide wall paints. I'm not a fan of trying to pull off those jobs in 1 coat regarless of the self priming and solid coverage they porovide because you have to achieve perfection with coat #1. Hmmm I wonder if Damon's theory would apply to painting walls with Aura. 2 guys rolling, the 2nd guy starts rolling behind the first guy at half way to the dry to touch stage... That would make a funny YouTube video. Sorry, off topic.. must be the egg nog!


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

You Vancouver guys are hard core, already hopped up on spiked eggnog by 10am!!!


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## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> You Vancouver guys are hard core, already hopped up on spiked eggnog by 10am!!![/QUOTE
> 
> Ha ha. Yes and when it comes to the rum Putlotsin!


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

'Tis the season to be jolly!


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## Mahone Painting (Dec 18, 2021)

Y


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