# Flashing and picture framing problem



## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

I am having some trouble with flashing and hatbanding and would really appreciate input from the members on this board.
On this particular home (NC) Sw pva primer was used and BM ultra spec 500 flat finish coat. 1 coat of primer was sprayed and I noticed hatbanding and flashing especially bad after the first coat of paint. I only have 1 room that has the 2nd coat applied and I stopped progress there. Although the problem got better the flash and picture framing is still there? Any guidance or input? Normally we use the same manufacturer for primer and paint but the designer wanted BM which was unknown at the time of priming with Sw primer could mixing primer/paint manufacturers be it?
I have included some pictures. The blueish gray room (last pic) has the 2nd coat


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pva primer.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

PACman said:


> Pva primer.


 I'm not negating your comment at all because I am asking for help and input but with that said why wouldn't a 2nd coat of a decent quality paint hide it? Also I have never had problems with this before granted normally everything is sprayed and this one was rolled.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

A little confused, are you spraying the top coats as well? If so, just a matter of making sure the parts you're cutting in aren't too thick/light. Make sure you're maintaining a wet edge. On higher end coatings you'll get away with not keeping a wet edge sometimes, but it's liable to show on a product like Ultra Spec. 

Otherwise, yah, pva primer is really, really bad. Priming with a better product probably would have helped. This is almost certainly the cause of the flashing.

Also, make sure your coats are as thick as they're supposed to be. US recommends 4.3 mils wet thickness.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

This is why you don't prime. Finish-finish. Looks just as good. Now if u get jammed up on a third coat of finish ur already 1 coat ahead of the game anyhow.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Oden said:


> This is why you don't prime. Finish-finish. Looks just as good. Now if u get jammed up on a third coat of finish ur already 1 coat ahead of the game anyhow.


Here we go.

Alternatively, 1 good coat of primer and 1 good coat of paint. Then you're ahead of the game anyhow.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PVA primer was obsolete in the eighties. It's cheap, so the paint companies keep pushing it on people. They like to be able to stick a $39.99 price on a bucket of something because it makes consumers feel that they have the best prices.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Alternatively, 1 good coat of primer and 1 good coat of paint. Then you're ahead of the game anyhow.


And it starts. You have to prime I guarantee this is the cause of flashing here. Aqualock that sucker and it won't happen. Always always always prime. Definitely would have tinted it because looks like a 2 or 3 base finish.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Looking at the pics again. Is it possible you where dry rolling at all. Maybe trying to spread it to far? Also, it looks as if you where stopping with the roller in the middle of the wall. I always stop at the top or bottom. 

Maybe finish with select on this one that's my advice.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

Primer was sprayed and paint was rolled. The paints are 2 and 3 base. I understand how the pictures may look like it was dry rolled but it was not. In the room you are referring to yes rolling was stopped in the middle of the wall due to scalfolding poitioning/height of ceiling, but it was not left to dry and still had a wet edge when it was met up to.

So do I need to use regal select as a 2nd coat and it will correct all of this? or do I need to go through repriming with something more quality then use the Bm ultra spec? I am losing my ass on this and just need the most economic fix at this point?


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

2 coats of Aura any color and your done. No flashing or picture framing just a nice even quality finish.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

Lambrecht said:


> 2 coats of Aura any color and your done. No flashing or picture framing just a nice even quality finish.


So at this stage using aura as a 2nd coat will that correct it? or regal as a 2nd coat?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

yzman720 said:


> Primer was sprayed and paint was rolled. The paints are 2 and 3 base. I understand how the pictures may look like it was dry rolled but it was not. In the room you are referring to yes rolling was stopped in the middle of the wall due to scalfolding poitioning/height of ceiling, but it was not left to dry and still had a wet edge when it was met up to.
> 
> So do I need to use regal select as a 2nd coat and it will correct all of this? or do I need to go through repriming with something more quality then use the Bm ultra spec? I am losing my ass on this and just need the most economic fix at this point?


What thickness roller are you using? Too thick of a roller can cause problems like this, too.

In general, I'd just caution being as quick as possible with your painting; stopping in the middle of the wall is always gonna be rough. It's not a big deal with Aura- you just let it dry and match it up rather than worry about a wet edge- but with a product like US it's much more problematic.

I would think that a final (good, thick) coat of US would solve it, but I can't guarantee it. A single coat of Regal Select in the same color would almost certainly solve it unless there's something disastrous going on we're not aware of. Same story for Aura, but it's a bit trickier to work with and if it's your first time I wouldn't recommend learning mid-project. 

Obviously won't help you this time, but in the future I'd caution against PVA primer even when working with SW products over it. It's a very dated product and there's vastly superior out there for around the same money. Hell, Benjamin Moore Sure Seal is only $ 20 (roughly, or less) and probably would have eliminated these issues.

At any rate, best of luck and I hope you find a solution that sorts it for you economically. Maybe ask your local paint store if they have any recommendations (if you came in my place, I'd go out and have a look at it with you). Unfortunately I can't tell a whole lot with this crappy laptop screen. It's so dingy I can barely make out the line on the bottom pic.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the losing your ass part. We've all been there. Not to derail this thread into a product vs application situation, but I would toss whatever roller covers you are using, and get microfiber covers for next coat. US 500 seems to tighten up covers (making a 1/2" cover a 3/8" and so on). That might account for some of the vertical lines on the last pic. Microfiber covers just seem to work better with Gennex tinted BM paints.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> What thickness roller are you using? Too thick of a roller can cause problems like this, too.
> 
> In general, I'd just caution being as quick as possible with your painting; stopping in the middle of the wall is always gonna be rough. It's not a big deal with Aura- you just let it dry and match it up rather than worry about a wet edge- but with a product like US it's much more problematic.
> 
> ...


well if everyone else agrees I will be using the regal select to put on the 2nd and I pray final coat to solve the problem. If you guys suggest aura to fix it I will do that as well but no I have never used aura what is so different about it?

I do not know why I have not had problems in the past (maybe shorter walls on mostly small tract homes) but I WILL NEVER take a chance PVA AGAIN after you guy's responses. Hell for what it would have cost to use an upgraded primer I would be thousands ahead instead of behind on this job.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Aura dries extremely fast. If you make any little error, you have to wait, let it dry, and go back to fix it. If you roll over a part that's partially dried, it will pull up. You don't even want to try to cut in wet with Aura- it will dry before you can roll, and it will cause problems. Cut in, let it dry fully, then do the rest. The nice thing about it is that it's usually impressively seamless. Just my experience with it, at least. Have to work fast and be smart. Lays out really nice, though. Regal is better for someone who hasn't used Aura before imho. The actual painters will probably pitch in with more about Aura.

Regarding the PVA primer, that's kinda the deal with bad coatings in general- they'll work sometimes (or even most of the time), but it's the sometimes they _don't_ work that bite you in the arse.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'd vote for the Regal Select. Great finish and easier to work than the Aura. I'd pay heed to the advice about roller covers, too. Arroworthy microfibers are the best I've found.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Wow some really good advice given here. Yz take it as a lesson and move on. Toss those rollers, use micros and roll like a champ with select and you will be fine my man.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

About the only advice I can offer beyond using microfiber roller cover and switching to Regal for your 2nd coat is using a weenie roller to cut in the walls. 

I start by cutting in the ceiling with a brush, then run the weenie roller as close to the ceiling as possible. Then I load the end of the weenie roller with paint and cut the sides and bottom of the wall. The weenie roller can apply a thicker and more even coat of paint compared to using a brush. It also creates a more uniform stipple across a wall compared to only using a brush for cutting in walls. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

PNW Painter said:


> About the only advice I can offer beyond using microfiber roller cover and switching to Regal for your 2nd coat is using a weenie roller to cut in the walls.
> 
> I start by cutting in the ceiling with a brush, then run the weenie roller as close to the ceiling as possible. Then I load the end of the weenie roller with paint and cut the sides and bottom of the wall. The weenie roller can apply a thicker and more even coat of paint compared to using a brush. It also creates a more uniform stipple across a wall compared to only using a brush for cutting in walls.
> 
> ...


That is what I do with affinity colors. It's an awsome recommendation my friend, but I never have any issues just using a brush with anything else then the afs.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

yzman720 said:


> So at this stage using aura as a 2nd coat will that correct it? or regal as a 2nd coat?


Personally I would use Aura but I use it almost exclusively for all my interior and exteriors. I've used regal a few times but Aura is just a better product and I don't like to waste my time screwing with inferior products. Time is money and Aura makes me money with the time I save not having to fix or redo the problems that often occur with other products. I could tell within the first few minutes of using Aura for the first time that it was a far better product than any PPG, SW, Glidden, or Behr product that I ever used. I have never looked back since.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Regal leaves the same finish imo. I use aura for deep base colors. It covers better in that situation. I wouldn't recommend using aura if your not familiar with the product especially since you are losing money on this one.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I like regal way better than aura . 

And to the OP your viewing your paint into a window casting light down the wall. Your will for sure have that flashing especially if you don't use benjamin Moore products regularly. Honestly I don't back roll any of my finishes with ben moore because this will happen. Especially with light casting down a wall. Lay it on thick and smooth and don't touch it. Let it dry and you will have a perfect even sheen.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

In those photos it almost appears to be a curve in the wall, or its the the ads at bottom of the photos that is throwing me, or maybe its just the way its appearing to me. Anyway i agree, roll it again. Unless the tape and spackle appears messed up, then fix that and roll


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

TrueColors said:


> I like regal way better than aura .
> 
> And to the OP your viewing your paint into a window casting light down the wall. Your will for sure have that flashing especially if you don't use benjamin Moore products regularly. Honestly I don't back roll any of my finishes with ben moore because this will happen. Especially with light casting down a wall. Lay it on thick and smooth and don't touch it. Let it dry and you will have a perfect even sheen.


Too often, that's the problem with flashing and/or hatbanding. Dry-rolling and dry-brushing. Put some paint on there! As Oden termed it in another thread, "don't scrub it, _paint_ it". 

From the pics, that would be my #1 suspect: not enough material applied. 
Even over PVA primer, UltraSpec_ flat_ should do better than that.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

If this is prime and 2 coats of paint, it's not the paint. It's technique.
I see stops and starts in the middle of the wall. You need to finish off with long strokes, from the ceiling to the floor.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

TrueColors said:


> I like regal way better than aura .
> 
> And to the OP your viewing your paint into a window casting light down the wall. Your will for sure have that flashing especially if you don't use benjamin Moore products regularly. Honestly I don't back roll any of my finishes with ben moore because this will happen. Especially with light casting down a wall. Lay it on thick and smooth and don't touch it. Let it dry and you will have a perfect even sheen.


with paint the walls were not sprayed and back rolled. The primer was sprayed and the paint was rolled from start


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

PaintersUnite said:


> If this is prime and 2 coats of paint, it's not the paint. It's technique.
> I see stops and starts in the middle of the wall. You need to finish off with long strokes, from the ceiling to the floor.


This is only one coat of paint. The 2nd coat was only done in one of my pictures above (the bluish gray room)
You are correct on the right side of the doorway it was started/stopped in the middle of the wall due to scaffold position/ceiling height and this right on top of a stairwell. A wet edge was left though


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

yzman720 said:


> This is only one coat of paint. The 2nd coat was only done in one of my pictures above (the bluish gray room)
> *You are correct on the right side of the doorway it was started/stopped in the middle of the wall due to scaffold position/ceiling height and this right on top of a stairwell.* A wet edge was left though


Aura gives great results, but I wouldn't use it for the first time on a wall that big with those obstacles.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> You need to finish off with long strokes, from the ceiling to the floor.


Is there a reason you lay off from ceiling to floor versus the opposite? Just personal preference/comes natural that way?

Or is there an actual reason the seemingly universal best practice is ceiling to floor?

I'm not questioning your technique; I simply wonder what pitfalls people would encounter with a finish stroke going from _floor to ceiling._

I sometimes get a weird notion in my head that pulling down on the last roll might encourage sagging, whereas pushing the paint up on the final roll might inhibit paint sags.

(This is the chit that goes through my head when I am forced to work alone without a radio all day long.)


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## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

I paint paint said:


> Is there a reason you lay off from ceiling to floor versus the opposite? Just personal preference/comes natural that way?
> 
> Or is there an actual reason the seemingly universal best practice is ceiling to floor?
> 
> ...



Not the original poster but I always lay off from ceiling to floor. Smoother stroke just letting the weight of the roller do the work.

I think you're over analyzing... how many times has wall paint being rolled on under the right conditions sagged on you?




As for yzman, use scaffolding if you must for cut in, but then ditch it and roll with a 6-12 pole or whatever you need for those bigger walls. 4-8 for normal walls. I'm not sure what else to say, I've never rolled a wall out that looks that bad since my 1st month of painting. I've always had good results with ultraspec but switch products if you're sure the problem isn't your technique.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I paint paint said:


> Is there a reason you lay off from ceiling to floor versus the opposite? Just personal preference/comes natural that way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whether your final pass is from bottom-up or top-down, use the same direction on every final pass when painting a highly reflective wall, especially when using anything with a sheen.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lambrecht said:


> Personally I would use Aura but I use it almost exclusively for all my interior and exteriors. I've used regal a few times but Aura is just a better product and I don't like to waste my time screwing with inferior products. Time is money and Aura makes me money with the time I save not having to fix or redo the problems that often occur with other products. I could tell within the first few minutes of using Aura for the first time that it was a far better product than any PPG, SW, Glidden, or Behr product that I ever used. I have never looked back since.


You sir are the PT genius of the week! Painters make money off of their labor and the time they save by using quality products, therefore wasting less time and effort babysitting an inferior product. Let the paint store make money off of the paint! Not nearly enough painters ever learn this lesson and become truly successful. The couple of bucks you get from marking up a cheap product, thinking you are being smart, is costing you many times as much in lost labor productivity. It can take years for it to sink in for most painters.

The same with the paint store you buy from. You may get the cheapest price and you may be buddy, buddy with all the store people, but if they are slowing you down by not having your paint correctly tinted and done on time it could be costing you thousands in labor expense and you could never see it. Think about this the next time you call in an order and you or one of your guys has to sit around while they make it. It isn't a social meeting, it's a business transaction and however friendly the store personnel may be, it is costing you money.

Sorry for the rant but your excellent comments regarding not wasting time and using quality paint struck a nerve. No painters here get it. They are all scrambling to get jobs using Promar 200 so they can get the $10 markup for it when they bid jobs, never realizing they are losing their buts having to do extra coats.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> If this is prime and 2 coats of paint, it's not the paint. It's technique.
> I see stops and starts in the middle of the wall. You need to finish off with long strokes, from the ceiling to the floor.


That's a big part of it. Needs to lay it off a little better. Top to bottom, keeping an even roller pressure. Some paints are trickier then others in this regard.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Is there a reason you lay off from ceiling to floor versus the opposite? Just personal preference/comes natural that way?
> 
> Or is there an actual reason the seemingly universal best practice is ceiling to floor?
> 
> ...


 It doesn't make a difference actually. Just be consistent.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> You sir are the PT genius of the week! Painters make money off of their labor and the time they save by using quality products, therefore wasting less time and effort babysitting an inferior product. Let the paint store make money off of the paint! Not nearly enough painters ever learn this lesson and become truly successful. The couple of bucks you get from marking up a cheap product, thinking you are being smart, is costing you many times as much in lost labor productivity. It can take years for it to sink in for most painters.
> 
> The same with the paint store you buy from. You may get the cheapest price and you may be buddy, buddy with all the store people, but if they are slowing you down by not having your paint correctly tinted and done on time it could be costing you thousands in labor expense and you could never see it. Think about this the next time you call in an order and you or one of your guys has to sit around while they make it. It isn't a social meeting, it's a business transaction and however friendly the store personnel may be, it is costing you money.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but your excellent comments regarding not wasting time and using quality paint struck a nerve. No painters here get it. They are all scrambling to get jobs using Promar 200 so they can get the $10 markup for it when they bid jobs, never realizing they are losing their buts having to do extra coats.


Have you considered that many customers are not willing to pay over 40 dollars for a gallon of paint? Do you really think that many painters really want to use crap paint just so they can make a couple of bucks per gallon?

Sure, there may be some hacks who don't care, but for me personally, I am often stuck with using the best mid-grade paint (without a mark-up) because the price is dictated by the customer, not me. Even after I patiently explain to them why purchasing a high-end paint makes sense, they just think 70 dollars a gallon is ridiculous.

Not all of us have carte blanche when selecting paint. I tend to use SW products. Cashmere, Superpaint, ProClassic, and once in a while Duration. I only use Promar 200 on low-end jobs. Again, it's not that I don't want to use Aura... 

I hope a day comes when I can look back and laugh at all those painting hacks who don't use the most expensive paint on each and every job. Until then, reality beckons and I have to make compromises in order to secure jobs.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Have you considered that many customers are not willing to pay over 40 dollars for a gallon of paint? Do you really think that many painters really want to use crap paint just so they can make a couple of bucks per gallon?
> 
> Sure, there may be some hacks who don't care, but for me personally, I am often stuck with using the best mid-grade paint (without a mark-up) because the price is dictated by the customer, not me. Even after I patiently explain to them why purchasing a high-end paint makes sense, they just think 70 dollars a gallon is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Hey I'm not arguing the point with you, I'm just acknowledging the fact that you recognize this. That's a lot more than most painters understand. There is a paint and a price point for every situation. It's just the guys who take a homeowners Duration expectations and subsequent price expectations and do the job with Superpaint at the best but most commonly Promar 200, just to make a few bucks off of a unknowing homeowner. It's the norm around here, so much so that just about every homeowner I deal with is paranoid about buying paint and hiring a painter.
And in fact, SW with their 30-40% sales is a huge enabler of this system. Almost to the point of it being their business model.

Again I agree with you 100% that there is a paint for every job and economy. But a quality painter (and paint store) will always give their customers the best VALUE for their dollar. That is what will drive long term success for all of us.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> Hey I'm not arguing the point with you, I'm just acknowledging the fact that you recognize this. That's a lot more than most painters understand. There is a paint and a price point for every situation. It's just the guys who take a homeowners Duration expectations and subsequent price expectations and do the job with Superpaint at the best but most commonly Promar 200, just to make a few bucks off of a unknowing homeowner. It's the norm around here, so much so that just about every homeowner I deal with is paranoid about buying paint and hiring a painter.
> And in fact, SW with their 30-40% sales is a huge enabler of this system. Almost to the point of it being their business model.
> 
> Again I agree with you 100% that there is a paint for every job and economy. But a quality painter (and paint store) will always give their customers the best VALUE for their dollar. That is what will drive long term success for all of us.


Sorry if I came across as bitchy. I just completed a month-long interior renovation of a condo near the beach. All interior surfaces re-painted except for cabinets (7 colors, accent walls). Laminate flooring (750 sq. ft.) and porcelain tile (250 sq. ft.), along with the accompanying trim. New light fixtures in kitchen (no secured boxes in ceiling to attach new lights...yuck), 3 expensive, time-consuming ceiling fans.

My knees are sore. My helper and I finished the job about an hour before the owner showed up with a moving van (a day ahead of promised schedule). Fortunately, he loves the work. Unfortunately, he is a typical customer who thought my price was high. My price was at least $1200 low when factoring in for travel time, gas, wallpaper removal. 

I'm not trying to derail this thread, haha. I just get frustrated when I know the value in using good products and I'm nearly always being forced to compromise because customers are naive and cheap. On the other hand, I've learned the products I do use, and if I can provide really nice work with them, it only makes sense that I could do even better (and spend less time) when I get the opportunity to use the best products.

I genuinely appreciate all the useful product information you, Drake, and many of the painters here provide. I am wanting to learn so that I can always make the best product choice for my price point.


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

And some painters are laughing at others for using high end & wasting money instead of pocketing it. Every line has it's place.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

I have found that when a customer is educated about the various qualities and price points of paint that they generally do not have a problem with me using a higher quality and priced paint. Most people prefer quality over price and if they don't that are not a good fit for the type of product that I produce using quality materials. I have also found that by using better products that give better results has over time put me in a position that I receive the type of customers that don't hesitate to go with a higher priced paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Sorry if I came across as bitchy. I just completed a month-long interior renovation of a condo near the beach. All interior surfaces re-painted except for cabinets (7 colors, accent walls). Laminate flooring (750 sq. ft.) and porcelain tile (250 sq. ft.), along with the accompanying trim. New light fixtures in kitchen (no secured boxes in ceiling to attach new lights...yuck), 3 expensive, time-consuming ceiling fans.
> 
> My knees are sore. My helper and I finished the job about an hour before the owner showed up with a moving van (a day ahead of promised schedule). Fortunately, he loves the work. Unfortunately, he is a typical customer who thought my price was high. My price was at least $1200 low when factoring in for travel time, gas, wallpaper removal.
> 
> ...


Hey we all have our moments! It is quite refreshing to me to hear from professionals like yourself that are quality and value driven and not just "make a quick buck" driven. It's the key to longevity in this business, even with us retailers.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Hey we all have our moments! It is quite refreshing to me to hear from professionals like yourself that are quality and value driven and not just "make a quick buck" driven. It's the key to longevity in this business, even with us retailers.


Drake,

Would you say that the majority of professional painters use professional paint brands like BM, PPG, SW, and KM? And do you think that it's the paint that keeps a painting contractor in business, or rather their business management apptitude?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Drake,
> 
> Would you say that the majority of professional painters use professional paint brands like BM, PPG, SW, and KM? And do you think that it's the paint that keeps a painting contractor in business, or rather their business management apptitude?


I'd say just by SW's market share alone that yes, the majority of professionals use a professional paint brand. If you include the handymen types that do a paint job or two a year, maybe about 50/50 since they almost exclusively use slop (if you're looking at percentage of 'businesses' rather than percentage of product used, that is).

No, I wouldn't say the paint keeps a painting contractor in business (solely), just like their business acumen doesn't, either. It's a combination of many factors, of which I'd say quality products are one. A smart businessman can probably keep a paint company going regardless of product, depending on his area and how dishonest he's willing to be.

Tl;dr is quality paint required to be in business? Clearly not. Is it a great contribution to flourishing? I believe so.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

I think of paint like a vehicle. Yes a Yugo will get me from point A to point B but how long will it last. Whereas a Mercedes will get me there many times for a lot longer without servicing and it looks a hell of a lot better too.:thumbsup:


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

PACman said:


> You sir are the PT genius of the week! Painters make money off of their labor and the time they save by using quality products, therefore wasting less time and effort babysitting an inferior product. Let the paint store make money off of the paint! Not nearly enough painters ever learn this lesson and become truly successful. The couple of bucks you get from marking up a cheap product, thinking you are being smart, is costing you many times as much in lost labor productivity. It can take years for it to sink in for most painters.
> 
> The same with the paint store you buy from. You may get the cheapest price and you may be buddy, buddy with all the store people, but if they are slowing you down by not having your paint correctly tinted and done on time it could be costing you thousands in labor expense and you could never see it. Think about this the next time you call in an order and you or one of your guys has to sit around while they make it. It isn't a social meeting, it's a business transaction and however friendly the store personnel may be, it is costing you money.
> 
> ...


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Yes I really do think Aura is that much better. Regal is good and does have a nice finish but the main differences that I have found is that Aura covers better, spreads farther, and touches up better. I have never gotten 1 coat coverage with Regal whereas I could get away with 1 coat of Aura with most colors. I have gone back months later after applying Aura to do minor touch-ups that when dry blend absolutely perfect with zero flashing. I have yet to find any other paint that can do that.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Lambrecht said:


> Yes I really do think Aura is that much better. Regal is good and does have a nice finish but the main differences that I have found is that Aura covers better, spreads farther, and touches up better. I have never gotten 1 coat coverage with Regal whereas I could get away with 1 coat of Aura with most colors. I have gone back months later after applying Aura to do minor touch-ups that when dry blend absolutely perfect with zero flashing. I have yet to find any other paint that can do that.


That is definitely debatable. I work with an interior designer that always specs for aura. I don't see that big of a difference except with deep base colors. I do see a huge difference with the matte finish though. Aura is definately better as far as that. Regal touches up just fine with a foam roller. Haven't really had any issues with it. I will say that aura does cover a little better however, I'm not sure if it's worth the price.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Have you considered that many customers are not willing to pay over 40 dollars for a gallon of paint? Do you really think that many painters really want to use crap paint just so they can make a couple of bucks per gallon?
> 
> Sure, there may be some hacks who don't care, but for me personally, I am often stuck with using the best mid-grade paint (without a mark-up) because the price is dictated by the customer, not me. Even after I patiently explain to them why purchasing a high-end paint makes sense, they just think 70 dollars a gallon is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


John, your post was perfect and exactly the way it is. Most customers don't want to pay $72 per gallon for paint.

Here are my last 3 estimates. 2 people claimed, I was too high priced, quoting them a job with *$35 per gallon paint*. And the 3rd customer hired me, and then asked for a free-be. How can I double my paint cost with AURA and land the work?

************************************************** *********
*Emails:

1)* Hello, after reviewing your quote I have determined that it is to high.
Thank You for your time.
Doug 

*2)* Not going to waste your time .. You’re WAY out of the ballpark .. You’re more than double our highest price …. Thanks anyway.

Frank

*3)* Hi,

I was hoping the estimate would come in a little lower, but I understand the work to be done is labor-intensive and that you do quality work. So we have decided to move forward and hire you. I was wondering if you could include one small addition for the $1,500. As you know, we have a small foyer. Would it be possible for you to paint that ceiling - if you remember it is really small - while you are painting adjacent in the family room?

Please let me know when you would like to do the work. We can't have any work done in the house next week, but you may start anytime beginning with Monday, August 24. 

Thank you! It was a pleasure to meet you and I look forward to a beautiful ceiling. Let me know how to get you the signed contract and the check for $750.

Best,
Lillian


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

You definately hit the nail on the head your 100% right. Some people just don't wanna pay l. However, it is very important to explain to them paint is like engine oil you get what you pay for. Explain to them high grade paints are way more durable. Aura definitely lasts alot longer. Do they want to paint every 2 to 3 yrs or every 10 yrs? So what's cheaper? Spending more now or spending the same amount again in 2 to 3 yrs? Some may want to pay more now instead of paying for labor again in the near future. That's what I tell everyone. You make the cost up in labor.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

PACman said:


> You sir are the PT genius of the week! Painters make money off of their labor and the time they save by using quality products, therefore wasting less time and effort babysitting an inferior product. Let the paint store make money off of the paint! Not nearly enough painters ever learn this lesson and become truly successful. The couple of bucks you get from marking up a cheap product, thinking you are being smart, is costing you many times as much in lost labor productivity. It can take years for it to sink in for most painters.


A painter doesn't have to be using $72 a gallon paint to do a quality job.
Did you ever hear the term "price perception"? or "perceived value"?

It has been a marketing strategy for companies, to put a high price tag on a product like (Aura), and create higher perceived value - when the product is actually no better than SW, Super Paint or Cashmere.

Gibson guitars does this with the Les Paul.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> John, your post was perfect and exactly the way it is. Most customers don't want to pay $72 per gallon for paint.
> 
> Here are my last 3 estimates. 2 people claimed, I was too high priced, quoting them a job with *$35 per gallon paint*. And the 3rd customer hired me, and then asked for a free-be. How can I double my paint cost with AURA and land the work?


If your customer base doesn't appreciate quality enough to pay for Aura, then that's fine. Every economy is different, as are every painter's customers. You should still be able to get Regal for not a lot more than your $ 35, and it should save you time, call-backs, etc. in the long run. Would you agree that there's cost savings in higher quality coatings? Maybe your labor costs could go down a bit if you used higher quality coatings, thus balancing out your bids?


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

A painter doesn't have to be using $72 a gallon paint to do a quality job.


You are correct. A true professional can paint with total crap paint and a totally crappy brush and still turn a good product. But why would he or she? If a paint contractor is focusing his sale on the price point of paint then they are not focusing on selliing quality. And by quality I am not just specifying a quality product but quality of the business as a whole. From my experience, a customer is more likely to choose a contractor that they feel confident about their knowledge, skill level, honesty, dependability, and ability to do the job. When I sell a job to a customer the price of the paint is the last thing that is discussed if the price is discussed at all. My entire sales strategy is focused on selling the quality that will be provided to them if they hire me. Once a customer is thoroughly informed about what it takes to get the best quality job the price of the paint is a low priority to them.


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## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

Really good reading here. I would say, as much as possible, having a long term goal attaining higher quality customers, eventually leads to painting products generally being left to discretion of the painter. Carte blanche with common sense and purpose. Paint quantity and quality, both are gray areas, I use what I should use, and it takes what it takes. Better not to pin yourself in.

Aura, I tell my customers on big color changes, do you want labor to paint the room three times, or $20 more per gallon and 2 coats labor...no brainer.
14" roller, loaded up, you cant possibly screw it up.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Lambrecht said:


> A painter doesn't have to be using $72 a gallon paint to do a quality job.
> 
> *You are correct. A true professional can paint with total crap paint and a totally crappy brush and still turn a good product. But why would he or she?* If a paint contractor is focusing his sale on the price point of paint then they are not focusing on selliing quality. And by quality I am not just specifying a quality product but quality of the business as a whole. From my experience, a customer is more likely to choose a contractor that they feel confident about their knowledge, skill level, honesty, dependability, and ability to do the job. When I sell a job to a customer the price of the paint is the last thing that is discussed if the price is discussed at all. My entire sales strategy is focused on selling the quality that will be provided to them if they hire me. Once a customer is thoroughly informed about what it takes to get the best quality job the price of the paint is a low priority to them.


In a million years, I would not buy $20 a gallon paint or suggested it to a customer. How does my quote have anything to do with what you said? My post suggested nothing about using crap paints at $20 per gallon. 

I reiterate, *just because a paint does not have a $72 price tag on it, doesn't mean it's not a quality paint. *If you think it does, BM's marketing strategy has the wool pulled over your eyes. At $72 per gallon, you are throwing your profits down the drain. 

And regarding customers, I have been estimating paint jobs since 1989. I have seen every type of customer you can imagine. The majority of customers want a mid grade paint at $35 per gallon. 

Here is a job I am doing in the $30,000 range. Interior work and some exterior! How is this for quality?


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm yet to see a paint that doesn't flash with that kind of lighting. It's a topic that has been discussed many times here. I apply lots of paint (I don't try to roll an entire wall with one dip), do the pass down technique, still get some flashing, regal, aura, name it. Some paints are worse for that than others, and definitely Ultra Spec is not great in that regards. Using BM extender in BM paints helps. I'm yet to find the perfect way for absolute no flashing, and I'll try anthing (have tried almost all of it) that I read here with an open mind and I'll be ethernally thankful if I do get the perfect results.

Hold a 500 watts spotlight on the side of the wall at one end, stick your head at the other end next to the wall and look at it, tell me you don't see any flashing with our beloved ultra fast setting latex paints. I haven't been doing it for 30 years like many of you have, but this has been a big concern of mine and have tried a lot of those advice to solve that issue, which isn't that apparent in most cases (I'm not getting crazy flashing, but with sensitive lighting situations, it shows).

As for Aura I have a few questions. I've used it a few times, always using the Aura roller sleeve, do you find it's better than a good microfiber?.

Also I'm trying to figure out precisely the perfect way to roll it. (my cutins have dried). Let's say you're starting at the left of the wall, 8 foot high per say. With one dip, I usually start on a row right of that then go down, up etc to get two rows, then the ceiling to floor pass on both rows. With aura it's advised to do one row at a time, but what do you do with the excess paint from the dip? Do you dip lighter? What if you get a line of paint from the end of the sleeve that you need to spead ?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> In a million years, I would not buy $20 a gallon paint or suggested it to a customer. How does my quote have anything to do with what you said? My post suggested nothing about using crap paints at $20 per gallon.
> 
> I reiterate, *just because a paint does not have a $72 price tag on it, doesn't mean it's not a quality paint. *If you think it does, BM's marketing strategy has the wool pulled over your eyes. At $72 per gallon, you are throwing your profits down the drain.
> 
> ...


 
only if YOU are paying for the paint, my customers pay for the paint in my world


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## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

If I'm reading this right you sprayed the primer and rolled the top coat. No mention of backrolling the primer. 

Bakrolling might have helped its hard to say at this point. I would agree not to use that particular primer.

Agree on better roller covers, micro like suggested. However not all are created equal so you gotta try some out to see which is really better. Don't settle on the ones that are ez to get if you can preorder some in advance its always a bit cheaper. Not sure what size roller your using but bigger is better in this arena. Bigger rollers equal less dips, less runners to go back over, less hatbanding ....etc etc. 

Paint quality- Most N.C homes use cheaper paint and no one really cares enough to bring it up. My clients allow me to use premium paint that is of good quality in the 35 dollar range. Yes these paints save me time and money over things like Promar200 or similar. Have tested Emerald and it is a good paint I could not see or feel a difference between that and the 35 dollar paint I prefer. Will test Aura one day, however my quality is already high with out it. 

Stay classy P.T
Good Luck O.P. 
Let us know what you ended up doing.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

And regarding customers, I have been estimating paint jobs since 1989. I have seen every type of customer you can imagine. The majority of customers want a mid grade paint at $35 per gallon.


The majority of your customers may want a mid-grade paint. I however I moved away from those type of customers. As far as the house in your pic, haven't you been there all summer? That is a 3-4 week job for one man using a high quality paint. What you have done so far looks good but it would probably look better finished.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> PACman said:
> 
> 
> > You sir are the PT genius of the week! Painters make money off of their labor and the time they save by using quality products, therefore wasting less time and effort babysitting an inferior product. Let the paint store make money off of the paint! Not nearly enough painters ever learn this lesson and become truly successful. The couple of bucks you get from marking up a cheap product, thinking you are being smart, is costing you many times as much in lost labor productivity. It can take years for it to sink in for most painters.
> ...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> John, your post was perfect and exactly the way it is. Most customers don't want to pay $72 per gallon for paint.
> 
> Here are my last 3 estimates. 2 people claimed, I was too high priced, quoting them a job with *$35 per gallon paint*. And the 3rd customer hired me, and then asked for a free-be. How can I double my paint cost with AURA and land the work?
> 
> ...


You are a professional. You can get a superior finish with a $35 gallon of paint. That's why you get the big bucks! You have the skill to do it. But there are occasions (few i'll admit) when a homeowner wants a extremely high end product, and they should get what they expect and not $ 20 a gallon SW.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> A painter doesn't have to be using $72 a gallon paint to do a quality job.
> Did you ever hear the term "price perception"? or "perceived value"?
> 
> It has been a marketing strategy for companies, to put a high price tag on a product like (Aura), and create higher perceived value - when the product is actually no better than SW, Super Paint or Cashmere.
> ...


SW is the KING of "price perception". You and I both know that their products aren't always the best in any given price range. In fact they are usually at the bottom of any given price range in quality. But when they jack their retail prices way up so they can give a 40% discount that "price perception" is exactly what they are playing to. Just like Kohl's. I agree with you 100% on this. But being a retailer, and hopefully a BM retailer in the future, I don't think I should get into much detail about how and why this is done. Suffice to say that this is becoming the norm in marketing. Think about it the next time you pass a Starbuck's loaded with people. Is the coffee really that better then McDonald's coffee? I don't think so and many people agree with that. Yet you see people lined up at Starbuck's to pay god knows how much for coffee made from the same 100% Arabica beans every other coffee maker uses. Why? Price perception.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> If your customer base doesn't appreciate quality enough to pay for Aura, then that's fine. Every economy is different, as are every painter's customers. You should still be able to get Regal for not a lot more than your $ 35, and it should save you time, call-backs, etc. in the long run. Would you agree that there's cost savings in higher quality coatings? Maybe your labor costs could go down a bit if you used higher quality coatings, thus balancing out your bids?


Labor costs? What the hell do labor costs have to do with making a profit? It's all about using the cheapest paint you can while getting the customer to hand over a check. Why the hell are you bringing labor costs into this now?:wallbash::wallbash:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lambrecht said:


> A painter doesn't have to be using $72 a gallon paint to do a quality job.
> 
> 
> You are correct. A true professional can paint with total crap paint and a totally crappy brush and still turn a good product. But why would he or she? If a paint contractor is focusing his sale on the price point of paint then they are not focusing on selliing quality. And by quality I am not just specifying a quality product but quality of the business as a whole. From my experience, a customer is more likely to choose a contractor that they feel confident about their knowledge, skill level, honesty, dependability, and ability to do the job. When I sell a job to a customer the price of the paint is the last thing that is discussed if the price is discussed at all. My entire sales strategy is focused on selling the quality that will be provided to them if they hire me. Once a customer is thoroughly informed about what it takes to get the best quality job the price of the paint is a low priority to them.


Yup. I agree. But the following smilie is me over the last 30 years trying to convince painters about this. :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> In a million years, I would not buy $20 a gallon paint or suggested it to a customer. How does my quote have anything to do with what you said? My post suggested nothing about using crap paints at $20 per gallon.
> 
> I reiterate, *just because a paint does not have a $72 price tag on it, doesn't mean it's not a quality paint. *If you think it does, BM's marketing strategy has the wool pulled over your eyes. At $72 per gallon, you are throwing your profits down the drain.
> 
> ...


 Industry wide, $30-35 a gallon retail is the range in which almost 70% of all paint purchased falls into. So you are right on target for that percentage of the potential paint jobs out there. You are correct, there is no need to go nuts on higher priced paints. Aura was only intended for the upper 5% of the retail paint market. Kind of like putting a Roush Mustang into a Ford dealership. It's a "halo" brand to get peoples' attention. When consumers hear that Aura is $70 a gallon they say WHOA, their paint MUST be the best! So they go in and happily pay full retail for Regal.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> In a million years, I would not buy $20 a gallon paint or suggested it to a customer. How does my quote have anything to do with what you said? My post suggested nothing about using crap paints at $20 per gallon.
> 
> I reiterate, *just because a paint does not have a $72 price tag on it, doesn't mean it's not a quality paint. *If you think it does, BM's marketing strategy has the wool pulled over your eyes. At $72 per gallon, you are throwing your profits down the drain.
> 
> ...


 The undone landscaping still bums me out though. Or is it the same picture you used last time?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pretty sure we've seen these pictures multiple times before.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Pretty sure we've seen these pictures multiple times before.


hey when you done good you want to show it off!


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

PACman said:


> Seth The Painter said:
> 
> 
> > Myself, I think that if you take all of the characteristics of Aura and Regal into account the Aura is the superior product. BUT, I don't personally believe it is $20.00 a gallon better. There are some reasons that the Aura is priced the way it is, and why discounts on it are rare. But at this time I am not in a position legally to disclose them. The same thing holds true on SW Emerald. It is no were near $20 a gallon better then Duration, in fact in some areas it is decidedly inferior. And any discounts on it that might bring it into a viable price range are also pretty rare. But any happy homeowner can get it for 40% 4 times a year! Think about that. Why is it priced so high? Hmmmm?
> ...


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Sometimes I get the feeling we have two general categories of residential painters here, and they typically talk past one another instead of to one another.

In one corner, we have a few small outfits/OMS who's clients are mostly repeat, high end customers. Because of these contractor's impeccable reputations, and because they already have a trusting relationship in place, these contractors simply give a price for a job that they, in essence, have already closed on.

No labor/material breakdown, no itemized gallon cost. I deliver the best results, so trust me to pick up the amount of whatever products I need, and I will prep and paint as needed to achieve great results, and I will apply an unstated number of coats, etc. But I only do great work, you will be impressed, and here is what it will cost you.

Don't you remember how pleasant it was to have me working in your dining/living room last summer, and remember all those compliments your neighbor's gave you after I left? I will put you on my list so we can do the same thing in your master bed/bath, and I'll call you a week or so before I can start so you can clear everything out.

In the other corner, we have contractors who are asked to compete for jobs by submitting detailed bids to customers who aren't 100% prescreened. These painters are contacted by customers who are evaluating itemized labor, paint and sundry costs from two or more contractors. The customers are weighing details like deposit amounts, start date availability and length of time needed to complete the job.

And there is great acrimony and mutual misunderstanding between the two camps.

Do I have just about all that correct?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't think it's quite as black and white as that, but generally speaking I wouldn't disagree with it from what I've seen.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I agree that, in a general sense, there are two categories of residential painters. Those who primarily cater to high end customers and those who don't. 

I think it's fairly obvious which guys on here fall into which category. After all, the posting of after photos of expensive homes speaks volumes, while the almost total lack of posting of ordinary, boring homes says just as much, if not more. I do not sense the acrimony that has been mentioned. I would call it frustration. 

I still think it's beneficial to share experiences.


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## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Sometimes I get the feeling we have two general categories of residential painters here, and they typically talk past one another instead of to one another.
> 
> In one corner, we have a few small outfits/OMS who's clients are mostly repeat, high end customers. Because of these contractor's impeccable reputations, and because they already have a trusting relationship in place, these contractors simply give a price for a job that they, in essence, have already closed on.
> 
> ...


I think ur 100 spot on, of course there are in betweeners. If I didnt end up in one category, I'd be in the other.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

It's paint and they're the client. I make my pitch and what paint id recommend. Then they tell me what 'THEY' want. As long as it's ABB (anything but behr) they can have what they want. Same as wallpaper. $25 bolt or $400 a bolt for a powder room I don't care as long as they pay the bill.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> Sometimes I get the feeling we have two general categories of residential painters here, and they typically talk past one another instead of to one another.
> 
> In one corner, we have a few small outfits/OMS who's clients are mostly repeat, high end customers. Because of these contractor's impeccable reputations, and because they already have a trusting relationship in place, these contractors simply give a price for a job that they, in essence, have already closed on.
> 
> ...


Oh yah sure you've got it all figured out. Awsome post.


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## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

So what did you do to fix this O.P?? Did you learn any thing from the use full comments? how about all the off topic stuff? I would like to see the after photos and what you did to resolve this situation...ofc another coat but did you upgrade the paint or use the same stuff? change your roller covers? etc etc. 

I maybe the only person still interested in the main post. 
Trainwreck.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

You want to see an ongoing train wreck where the OP hasn't returned?

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/beach-owner-47658/


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I myself kind of think that painting contractors are divided along the left brain/right brain concept. Some painters see it as more of a craft or an art that they are compensated for. Other painters see it more analytically, and they think of it more along the lines of a production based business. And most painters understand the need to be able to accommodate both sides to be profitable. I myself love to see people paint old Victorian era homes and such. They are absolute works of art when the homeowner and painter put the time and effort into them. But I also see the importance of maintenance painting on rentals and warehouses and the like. But most painters will always lean one way or the other in their preferences. And that is were the personal part comes in. That point is were things like ego might take over opinions and such. That's where some of the disagreements come in. Some guys are proud to have finished a house and have it be a piece of art. Some guys are proud to have painted 10-100,000 square foot warehouses in a summer. Nothing wrong with either.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I agree with how I.P.P. and PACman have explained the different mindsets.

And there is room for all to be busy and profit. 

Luckily there are customers out there that fit each mindset but rarely fit all.

Funny how "it's only paint", but there are so many different approaches.

Good writings you two. :thumbsup:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

PACman said:


> SW is the KING of "price perception". You and I both know that their products aren't always the best in any given price range. In fact they are usually at the bottom of any given price range in quality. But when they jack their retail prices way up so they can give a 40% discount that "price perception" is exactly what they are playing to. Just like Kohl's. I agree with you 100% on this. But being a retailer, and hopefully a BM retailer in the future, I don't think I should get into much detail about how and why this is done. Suffice to say that this is becoming the norm in marketing. Think about it the next time you pass a Starbuck's loaded with people. Is the coffee really that better then McDonald's coffee? I don't think so and many people agree with that. Yet you see people lined up at Starbuck's to pay god knows how much for coffee made from the same 100% Arabica beans every other coffee maker uses. Why? Price perception.


Well, on that fancy house I keep posting, *sorry Drake, I'll take new pics for you*. The customer said he wanted a great paint. He said, "I don't care what you use, I want the best". And guess what, I could have used Arua, but I did not. Why, because I don't think it is any better than SW, Duration, Superpaint or Cashmere at $20 less per gallon. So what I mean by "price perception" is that when a company puts a price tag of $72.00 per gallon on it, painters think, "WOW FOR THAT PRICE, IT'S MUST BE THE BEST". WOW!!! It seems like painters on PT, don't know a good paint from a great paint. The guys here never give ANY valid reasons why a paint sux, is good, or is the best. 

Oh, "BEHR sux cuz it is sold at home depot". "Oh, eminence sux cuz you can see lap marks" and "blank paint doesn't touch up well, therefore it sux". "Oh, it doesn't have primer in the can like the label say, so it sux". 

Sorry, but that is not how you judge good or bad paints. What makes a paint crap, good or great is the following; 


Durability. How long will it last? 

How washable is it? 

Is it fade resistant? 

Is it mildew resistant?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> Well, on that fancy house I keep posting, *sorry Drake, I'll take new pics for you*. The customer said he wanted a great paint. He said, "I don't care what you use, I want the best". And guess what, I could have used Arua, but I did not. Why, because I don't think it is any better than SW, Duration, Superpaint or Cashmere at $20 less per gallon. So what I mean by "price perception" is that when a company puts a price tag of $72.00 per gallon on it, painters think, "WOW FOR THAT PRICE, IT'S MUST BE THE BEST". WOW!!! It seems like painters on PT, don't know a good paint from a great paint. The guys here never give ANY valid reasons why a paint sux, is good, or is the best.
> 
> Oh, "BEHR sux cuz it is sold at home depot". "Oh, eminence sux cuz you can see lap marks" and "blank paint doesn't touch up well, therefore it sux". "Oh, it doesn't have primer in the can like the label say, so it sux".
> 
> ...


you forgot one! "Behr sux because it smells like cat pee." LOl.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

When i am told that the computer recommends aura, at the paint store, i buy it. Sometimes they recommend, regal select and aura. 
In regards to any perceived divide amongst painters, thats kinda funny. Is that just because every painter isnt upselling products? Cmon, thats not our job. We relay the basic info on paint, which is there are basically 3 levels of paint from every paint company...just like every single product at home depot. Three quality levels, with different price levels.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

TKbrush said:


> When i am told that the computer recommends aura, at the paint store, i buy it. Sometimes they recommend, regal select and aura.
> In regards to any perceived divide amongst painters, thats kinda funny. Is that just because every painter isnt upselling products? Cmon, thats not our job. We relay the basic info on paint, which is there are basically 3 levels of paint from every paint company...just like every single product at home depot. Three quality levels, with different price levels.


I always find reactions interesting when you explain the different price points for paint. I've noticed a lot of the time you get your regular Joe saying he wants to go with Aura right off the bat for his average middle income home, then you get the higher scale high income HOs saying Ben will be just fine.

If there's major colour changes going on you might have to explain that maybe Aura or Regal would be a better option and they get jumpy at the pricing.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I always find reactions interesting when you explain the different price points for paint. I've noticed a lot of the time you get your regular Joe saying he wants to go with Aura right off the bat for his average middle income home, then you get the higher scale high income HOs saying Ben will be just fine.
> 
> If there's major colour changes going on you might have to explain that maybe Aura or Regal would be a better option and they get jumpy at the pricing.


True, there is this occurance too...and ask anyone in sales, many times there is no rhyme or reason with some peoples decision making when buying stuff.
I think with zero voc's its basically like dolphin safe tunafish. When given the choice, most people want to make the best common sense choice.
With describing the often asked, what is self priming paint...i have resorted to saying, its sticky paint, bonds better and has better color technology. Ofcourse then ya have spend more time talking, when ya need to buy primer.


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## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> Well, on that fancy house I keep posting, *sorry Drake, I'll take new pics for you*. The customer said he wanted a great paint. He said, "I don't care what you use, I want the best". And guess what, I could have used Arua, but I did not. Why, because I don't think it is any better than SW, Duration, Superpaint or Cashmere at $20 less per gallon. So what I mean by "price perception" is that when a company puts a price tag of $72.00 per gallon on it, painters think, "WOW FOR THAT PRICE, IT'S MUST BE THE BEST". WOW!!! It seems like painters on PT, don't know a good paint from a great paint. The guys here never give ANY valid reasons why a paint sux, is good, or is the best.
> 
> Oh, "BEHR sux cuz it is sold at home depot". "Oh, eminence sux cuz you can see lap marks" and "blank paint doesn't touch up well, therefore it sux". "Oh, it doesn't have primer in the can like the label say, so it sux".
> 
> ...


Your list is correct, particularly for the homeowner. As a painter, I add workabilty, smell, ability for the selected product to successfully perform based on the condition of what is being painted.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

GR8painter said:


> Your list is correct, particularly for the homeowner. As a painter, I add workabilty, smell, ability for the selected product to successfully perform based on the condition of what is being painted.


What about coverage (ability)?


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

The aura and regal select were tested in 2 different rooms as a 2nd coat. The regal select is as it was just coated with a 2nd coat of ultra spec 500 not much better if any. The aura covered the other room ALOT better and makes it "passable". You can still see flashing but it is so minimal you have to know what you are looking for and specifically be looking for it. The aura does not come in flat only in matte. Also I personally would not classify it as a matte, it looks more like an eggshell. This brings me to an additional question. The ceilings have to have a 2nd coat as well due to flashing and I can't decide what to do since aura only comes in matte and like I said looks more like an eggshell in the aura. There are white ceilings and 1/4 formula color ceilings. Should I use aura with the matte sheen on a ceiling? I think I remember reading somewhere that BM has a ceiling paint with the same technology as aura but it comes in flat. Should I risk it or just gamble on the sheen of the aura on the ceilings? like I said some ceilings have color and some are white. There are vault ceilings as well. Thoughts?


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I believe you're talking about BM 508 (?) Ultra flat ceiling paint. It is a dead flat. There's also superhide flat. Many times I've seen cheap builders flat hide poor drywall in some huge atriums with very difficult light.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I haven't switched from BM 258 to BM 508 yet.

Muresco ceiling paint works well for me.


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## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> I haven't switched from BM 258 to BM 508 yet.
> 
> Muresco ceiling paint works well for me.


508 is well worth the extra $3 on large smooth ceilings with lots of natural light.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

508 should be fine for you, no reason to do Aura on the ceiling. 508 will be easier to work with and should do just fine.

As far as still having flashing with both the Regal and the Aura... honestly, I don't even know how that's possible without some absolutely catastrophic failure in product, substrate, or application. Maybe you got a bad batch of PVA primer? The stuff is garbage in the first place, but that might explain it?

Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I have a hard time believing a wall that's been coated with US and Aura is having flashing problems.


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## yzman720 (Aug 11, 2015)

What's the difference between the 508 and the superhide? At this point I don't care about the money anymore just not having to redo it again, would it be safer to use the aura rather than the super hide or 508? The only thing that concerns me about the aura is that it's not dead flat but on the walls it seems to be the only thing that made it passable, even when rs didnt.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> 508 should be fine for you, no reason to do Aura on the ceiling. 508 will be easier to work with and should do just fine.
> 
> As far as still having flashing with both the Regal and the Aura... honestly, I don't even know how that's possible without some absolutely catastrophic failure in product, substrate, or application. Maybe you got a bad batch of PVA primer? The stuff is garbage in the first place, but that might explain it?
> 
> Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I have a hard time believing a wall that's been coated with US and Aura is having flashing problems.


Primer quality or lack thereof,
roller quality or lack thereof,
proper application technique or lack thereof,
atmospheric conditions within specifications or lack thereof?
Chinese drywall
cheap ass box store drywall(Chinese?)
cheap ass migrant drywall job
cheap ass migrant mud job
cheap ass migrant tape job
cheap ass migrant sanding job

ok, there are some new topics for all of you to bicker amongst yourselves about. How's that.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> Primer quality or lack thereof,
> roller quality or lack thereof,
> proper application technique or lack thereof,
> atmospheric conditions within specifications or lack thereof?
> ...


I'm leaving for the weekend at noon today, and I am just feeling like being a d*ck. lol!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

yzman720 said:


> What's the difference between the 508 and the superhide? At this point I don't care about the money anymore just not having to redo it again, would it be safer to use the aura rather than the super hide or 508? The only thing that concerns me about the aura is that it's not dead flat but on the walls it seems to be the only thing that made it passable, even when rs didnt.


Do the 508. It's the best ceiling paint on the market in my biased opinion.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

yzman720 said:


> I am having some trouble with flashing and hatbanding and would really appreciate input from the members on this board.
> On this particular home (NC) Sw pva primer was used and BM ultra spec 500 flat finish coat.


I did a job a few years ago with BM ultra spec 500 flat finish.
I painted the complete interior after the HO closed on the home.
I did custom colors throughout, over builders grade off white.
Some of the colors I used were dark reds and dark greens.

I had absolutely no problem making the work look 100% with (2 coats) of ultra spec, over builders grade paint. No special primer was used, no regal or arua, only BM ultra spec 500 from start to finish. 

BTW - I used the ultra spec 500 because the customer requested it.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I can't see using a PVA primer at all
But for flat? That's just bonkers. And then to have problems with it? To boot. 

Painter unite made a point maybe accidently, all the housing, it's sprayed and bankrolled flat, and that's it. One and done flat finish, now granted the paint jobs these joints get aren't primo, but not cause the paint isn't solid. It's other issues. And actually the flat hides a lot of the other issues till the homeowners eventually get or do a custom job. With a sheen. Then the other issues pop out.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

BM doesn't recommend using Aura in any sheen on a ceiling, if I remember right, which makes sense to me, because all the Aura products are washable, which also means it generally does not look right over flat paint with one coat. There really isn't any situation where I would attempt to paint one coat of Aura over flat. Anyway, a flat finish is probably not a great idea with a color that dark because in about 6 months after a bunch of people have touched the surface and/or leaned on it, it's going to look like crap. I realize you may say that the customer picked the flat, but really as painters I think it is our job to explain to the customer that with the dark color and the windows providing the critical light situation, a flat finish is a bad idea. I would use the Aura Matte and do two coats. The sheen dies down some after a few months.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Oden said:


> I can't see using a PVA primer at all
> But for flat? That's just bonkers. And then to have problems with it? To boot.
> 
> Painter unite made a point maybe accidently, all the housing, it's sprayed and bankrolled flat, and that's it. One and done flat finish, now granted the paint jobs these joints get aren't primo, but not cause the paint isn't solid. It's other issues. And actually the flat hides a lot of the other issues till the homeowners eventually get or do a custom job. With a sheen. Then the other issues pop out.


And sometimes those problems pop out even after three or four paint jobs later if a cheap flat is used every time. Until the drywall is sealed it can still suck the resins right up, leaving an uneven sheen.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

GR8painter said:


> Your list is correct, particularly for the homeowner. As a painter, I add *workabilty, smell,* ability for the selected product to successfully perform based on the condition of what is being painted.


I've been painting since 1978. For the first 15 years of my painting career, I used oil based paints and mineral spirits faithfully. And man, those paints had a finish that looked like glass. But they were tough to work with and the smell was hard to deal with as well. 

Did you ever work with 2 part epoxy on structural steel? Man, that stuff dried looking like hell, but it dried strong and durable as steel. *

Workabilty & smell *went out the window with the 2 aforementioned paints. Does that mean the paints were not great paints? *Talk to me Drake!?!*


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> I've been painting since 1978. For the first 15 years of my painting career, I used oil based paints and mineral spirits faithfully. And man, those paints had a finish that looked like glass. But they were tough to work with and the smell was hard to deal with as well.
> 
> Did you ever work with 2 part epoxy on structural steel? Man, that stuff dried looking like hell, but it dried strong and durable as steel. *
> 
> Workabilty & smell *went out the window with the 2 aforementioned paints. Does that mean the paints were not great paints? *Talk to me Drake!?!*


Hey that isn't fair bringing Drake into this! You know all of those BM paints smell like roses on a dewy morning.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> And sometimes those problems pop out even after three or four paint jobs later if a cheap flat is used every time. Until the drywall is sealed it can still suck the resins right up, leaving an uneven sheen.


What we see more often is what Oden was referring to, problems with the taping job. When we've come in and repainted with a sheened paint, we've had clients start ranting about lap marks and flashing, then suddenly get quiet when they realize that what they're seeing is GWB seams and rows of fasteners. Material cost isn't the sole reason for builders' flat. It hides a multitude of sins.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> I've been painting since 1978. For the first 15 years of my painting career, I used oil based paints and mineral spirits faithfully. And man, those paints had a finish that looked like glass. But they were tough to work with and the smell was hard to deal with as well.
> 
> Did you ever work with 2 part epoxy on structural steel? Man, that stuff dried looking like hell, but it dried strong and durable as steel. *
> 
> Workabilty & smell *went out the window with the 2 aforementioned paints. Does that mean the paints were not great paints? *Talk to me Drake!?!*


Judging anything by a minor subset of its characteristics is foolish. Oil paints definitely had good qualities, and definitely had bad qualities. Same thing for latex. That doesn't inherently make either good or bad- and the discussion here is regarding quality within certain categories, not across categories.


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