# C2 Paints



## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Retailers what are your honest opinions of C2 Paints? Contractors have you ever used it or even heard of it? I have just recentlly went to a C2 event here in Atlanta and wanted to know what y'all think. BTW that was the first time I had heard of them. 

http://www.uspaintsupply.com/paint/c2-paint/c2-colors/


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Great stuff. Really expensive. I can't see the point of using it. Color covers very well (I used a really dark purple over an off white) in 1 coat. A sheen change flat to satin or??) Is still a sheen change. Again, I just can't justify the price.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Can u tell is more about the event in Atlanta ?
This stuff is fine paint but totally over priced 
No better then any other top brand 

It's all marketing and color work 
They are now owned by Ppg so go slow on that 
What is initial buy in to carry it ?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I have not used it a lot, but what I have used, which I believe has always been its LOVO line, is very good. Equal to Ben Moore RS. I did look at a job about a year ago that was done with C2 stain, which still looked good after 10 years. I did not wind up doing the job because of the need for the HO to spend money on more important things like a new roof. Hopefully in the Spring I will be able to do the job, and try its stain.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Phinnster said:


> Can u tell is more about the event in Atlanta ?
> This stuff is fine paint but totally over priced
> No better then any other top brand
> 
> ...


The event was through PPG. From what they said they work together and are not owned by them from what I understood. The buy in is steep and requires new tints and a new machine. I think it was around 40k plus and for only 8 product lines i think thay is overkill but with these new dispensers costing as much as a new budget car who can blame them.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Also even one of the main honcho guys said that ben Moore reverse engineered their lux product and made aura. That was all i needed to hear to say no and lets not forget that deep buy in. I dont know if that is bad or if 3M wanting 10k to start


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

I also will be the first in the market and state to carry it if I decide to
What do y'all think aboit being the first innovator or a guinea pig?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I need to amend my previous statement. I recently used one of C2 on an exterior job, which the HO bought the paint for. I generally do not like HOs to purchase the paint, but since it was C2 I was fine with it. It was a deep red, and for some reason my brains was not working and I primed with white, even though the HO had some red primer let over from the last time that he painted. I was incredible surprised at how well the red covered with two coats. I almost considered not puttng on a third coat, But, in the end it only took me about an hour to cover all the ares that were still showing some of the white primer. I was totally impressed with the paint, I wish that I could remember what line I used.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Pete all they have now is the luxe and possibly a contractor grade
But that would not have worked as well 

As far as outside their solid stain is good bit it is same as a flat paint 
Again nothing wrong with the paint 
Just nothing great either


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Phinnster said:


> Pete all they have now is the luxe and possibly a contractor grade
> But that would not have worked as well
> 
> As far as outside their solid stain is good bit it is same as a flat paint
> ...


So, it must have been the luxe that I used in the red. My use of it is so sporadic that I cannot really judge it more than saying it is not bad paint. Although I was suprised at the price of its Advance "like" paint which is made with soy and was $70 a gallon...contractor price!


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes Pete that price is a joke
That product is actually decent


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Do you guys thing a ho would even buy that?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ElTacoPaco said:


> Also even one of the main honcho guys said that ben Moore reverse engineered their lux product and made aura. That was all i needed to hear to say no and lets not forget that deep buy in. I dont know if that is bad or if 3M wanting 10k to start


I'd be pretty wary of that claim, that reeks of used-car-salesman-selling. The big difference between Aura and normal paint is ColorLock, and I don't see anything at all in the Luxe advertising that comes close to mentioning a technology like that. Maybe they're just bad at advertising. There's nothing else special about Aura at all from any other paint, except for the high quality materials. ColorLock is the only thing that's new with Aura, and I'm not sure how they'd have stolen it from C2 when C2 doesn't mention anything about a technology like it anywhere


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I'd be pretty wary of that claim, that reeks of used-car-salesman-selling. The big difference between Aura and normal paint is ColorLock, and I don't see anything at all in the Luxe advertising that comes close to mentioning a technology like that. Maybe they're just bad at advertising. There's nothing else special about Aura at all from any other paint, except for the high quality materials. ColorLock is the only thing that's new with Aura, and I'm not sure how they'd have stolen it from C2 when C2 doesn't mention anything about a technology like it anywhere


I think the guy who started C2 was a former BM chemist. That may be why people came up with the Aura story. As we all know there are a lot of BS stories about who came up with what paint or who makes this paint or that paint. Most of it is BS and the only people that actually know are the people on the inside.

And it could just be a claim that some C2 salesperson came up with to justify the pricing.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

The reality of it is, there's very little unique in most paint. It's not hard to make a "good" paint. All you've got to do is buy good materials. Of course, there's always some innovations but they're sucked up into common use pretty quickly (like the waterborne colorants and I'm sure the Aura technology will be in or copied for plenty of products in the next 5 years).


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

ElTacoPaco said:


> Do you guys thing a ho would even buy that?


I had a HO that had picked a C2 color for her trim. Once I heard price, I decided to have them mix it with Advance, which was at least $20 cheaper.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Founders of c 2 background was Pratt and lambert 
He was a chemist and got independent stores to buy in 
Then they sold out to Ppg 
Kinda gross


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

The story is that head honcho for pratt and lamber was laid off when sw bought them
And the "biggest retailer" in north america was left stranded because sw changed the quality and he was in search of a new high quality product 
So he called the chem and they made c2 and now they are partnered to ppg


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> I'd be pretty wary of that claim, that reeks of used-car-salesman-selling. The big difference between Aura and normal paint is ColorLock, and I don't see anything at all in the Luxe advertising that comes close to mentioning a technology like that. Maybe they're just bad at advertising. There's nothing else special about Aura at all from any other paint, except for the high quality materials. ColorLock is the only thing that's new with Aura, and I'm not sure how they'd have stolen it from C2 when C2 doesn't mention anything about a technology like it anywhere



My understand is that BM is one of the only companies that makes their own raw materials. Most others buy all their resins and stuff from the same company, Rohm and Hass I believe. Or is it that other one?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> My understand is that BM is one of the only companies that makes their own raw materials. Most others buy all their resins and stuff from the same company, Rohm and Hass I believe. Or is it that other one?


There are several Rohm and Haas is one of the big ones.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

PACman said:


> I think the guy who started C2 was a former BM chemist. That may be why people came up with the Aura story. As we all know there are a lot of BS stories about who came up with what paint or who makes this paint or that paint. Most of it is BS and the only people that actually know are the people on the inside.
> 
> And it could just be a claim that some C2 salesperson came up with to justify the pricing.




http://www.housepaintingguide.org/tom-hill-founder-c2-paint/


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Neat article; very informative. Thanks for linking Nick.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

PACman said:


> There are several Rohm and Haas is one of the big ones.


You would think since BM does all of their raw materials that their cost to independents would be cheaper but it isnt ; (


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ElTacoPaco said:


> You would think since BM does all of their raw materials that their cost to independents would be cheaper but it isnt ; (


No, quality control and higher quality sources is _much_ more expensive than buying the cheapest raw materials imported from China you can find. Quality is rarely less expensive than cheap.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> No, quality control and higher quality sources is _much_ more expensive than buying the cheapest raw materials imported from China you can find. Quality is rarely less expensive than cheap.


Products are developed, raw materials are licensed, and the manufacturing of those raw materials gets farmed out to the lowest bidder. Most paint companies are getting to the point where it is much cheaper (and I mean MUCH cheaper) to source those raw materials from China. Whether they get the licensing in China to manufacture them or not is still not actually known at this point. Any small change in a chemical formulation protects them from any rights infringement. It's a slippery slope. They original licensees don't want to piss off their biggest customers (the paint companies) so they are kind of stuck for the time being.

The biggest issue is the quality control of those Chinese raw materials is quite suspect at best.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> http://www.housepaintingguide.org/tom-hill-founder-c2-paint/


Good article. But what is alchid resents?


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Neat article; very informative. Thanks for linking Nick.


Would you ever carry c2?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> Good article. But what is alchid resents?


I wondered if that was a legitimate alternate spelling or whether whoever did the transcript just didn't know anything about paint...


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ElTacoPaco said:


> Would you ever carry c2?


No. Not because I don't like the product; it's probably a fine product. It's redundant. Ben Moore has a focus on quality that they admittedly are not as interested in, and they have their colors; Benjamin Moore's Color Stories collection is the same thing as theirs (many different colorants in each color; less focus on S1 colorant). Maybe that's what BM 'copied' from them, though the idea wasn't original to C2, either. BM gives you the option to have a curated, deep palette like that and also to have tons of choice- best of both worlds.

But in short, like I said, it's redundant. I don't need two paint lines that accomplish the same thing. That's confusing for customers and increases your cost of doing business arbitrarily. 

My goal is to be as sleek as possible. I want a solution to every problem, but never more than one solution to the same problem. I'm in the process of cutting a line of stains that's redundant. I'll be trimming down _many_ primers and adding in a few more to fill in some gaps. Your goal shouldn't be to have as many "good" products as you can find, that's wasteful. It's to have the right product to answer every application question.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I wondered if that was a legitimate alternate spelling or whether whoever did the transcript just didn't know anything about paint...


Prolly a Skype or telephone interview. And the interviewer was a dumba55.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> No. Not because I don't like the product; it's probably a fine product. It's redundant. Ben Moore has a focus on quality that they admittedly are not as interested in, and they have their colors; Benjamin Moore's Color Stories collection is the same thing as theirs (many different colorants in each color; less focus on S1 colorant). Maybe that's what BM 'copied' from them, though the idea wasn't original to C2, either. BM gives you the option to have a curated, deep palette like that and also to have tons of choice- best of both worlds.
> 
> But in short, like I said, it's redundant. I don't need two paint lines that accomplish the same thing. That's confusing for customers and increases your cost of doing business arbitrarily.
> 
> My goal is to be as sleek as possible. I want a solution to every problem, but never more than one solution to the same problem. I'm in the process of cutting a line of stains that's redundant. I'll be trimming down _many_ primers and adding in a few more to fill in some gaps. Your goal shouldn't be to have as many "good" products as you can find, that's wasteful. It's to have the right product to answer every application question.


Duplication of product thay will be the death of any paint store I agree co pletely


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

As a new business I'd think your primary focus would need to be on products you know will sell. Those are products whose manufacturer has already built a solid reputation. This will provide you opportunity to meet and begin to build trust with your new customers . Especially the contractors. They already know what they want. And they know why. You just need to distribute it. If your competition is sw, sell wooster. It doesn't matter how you "feel" about a manufacturer...feelings don't pay bills, profits do. The wooster frames and poles are better than Purdy imo, that's one way to get a few customers in the door. I buy my paint from sw, but my tools elsewhere.Be the guy with the gear. The paint sells itself. HO's will go with whatever you recommend usually. Once you have built a strong customer base you can introduce specialty products or whatever--take a risk or two--without much financial risk to you. C2 is a good,but little known, product. Very risky and expensive for a new guy. Especially a new young guy with very little experience. Just my 2 cents. Good luck with your new store!


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