# Oil vs. Latex for Trim



## chipster (Dec 31, 2007)

- Do most here use oil base for all trim and doors? 

- Is there a latex product that shows the least brush marks you could recommend?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Well this is a timely spinoff from the estimating thread. 

Oil is the spec for most of our high end work, which is architect and designer driven. They love satin impervo. And I gotta admit, its a beautiful finish. There is a snob factor associated with it.

However, I love when homeowners ask me what I use in my own house and I tell them latex and the whole host of reasons why, not the least of which certainly is how labor intensive satin impervo (oil) is. Think about it, sometimes in the houses we paint (in Vermont in the winter!), we have to pull over 100 window sashes, prep and paint them and reinstall them. Isnt it nice when you can get two coats of latex on them in the same day and put them back in once and for all?

Yeah, I'll take waterborne satin impervo. And my rep tells me Ben Moore will be bringing it in deeper bases by spring. Slick it up with lots of fluotrol and be soft with the brush.


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## Kelly Painting (Apr 17, 2007)

Ya, same for me...high end work in Boston...oil....locally latex.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Use latex for pretty much everything. In the past 7-8 years, I only remember 4 jobs we used oil on. They were exterior though.


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## Mandrake (Jul 4, 2007)

Yeah it seems like latex is being used more often than not unless you are dealing with real high-end stuff. Satin Impervo is a nice product. I've seen some trim successfully sprayed with latex that looked great. I like Ben Moore's Aquaglo semi myself.


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## CobraCDN (Jan 8, 2008)

Up here we have been spraying Cloverdales Ecologic Semi-gloss on Int. trim and doors. Sprays nice, prob is the cure time. Dries to the touch in minutes, but the cure time is 30 days. Which means doors will stick shut. I miss the oil in that regard. But spraying 2 coats in a day and calling it done is nice also. I may just check out this BJ Aquaglo or what is the other one>> satin impervo that BJ also??
Cheers


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

High End Clients:
The more VOCs the better!
Hey they didn't spend all that money on the wife's Escalade for her coffee klatch commute (engine doesn't even warm up) just to wimp out on the pollutants _inside_ their home

Everybody Else:
Please don't use oil, my nose/baby/brain/children/environment/earth doesn't like it all that much

Waterborne Satin Impervo shows almost as few brushmarks as it's oil-based partner Satin Impervo
There's still a few though
I prefer it that way
So people know it was hand done not baked in an oven or electroplated or something


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Waterborne Satin Impervo shows almost as few brushmarks as it's oil-based partner Satin Impervo
There's still a few though
I prefer it that way
So people know it was hand done not baked in an oven or electroplated or something

Exactly!:notworthy:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

chrisn said:


> Waterborne Satin Impervo shows almost as few brushmarks as it's oil-based partner Satin Impervo
> There's still a few though
> I prefer it that way
> So people know it was hand done not baked in an oven or electroplated or something
> ...


Right on!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Here in the Peoples Democratic Republic of Maryland you can't get oil based interior paint. Soon the rest of your will be relegated to the same fate....

Maryland, one people, one party, one furher.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Oils aren't going away - they can't legislate like that. In fact - these companies lobbied government and put the brakes on the epa for a while. Most latex paints are just as bad with voc's as their oil based cousins.


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## CobraCDN (Jan 8, 2008)

I have nothing to quote, but I had heard they had legislated out oil base products residentially in California.. anyone confirm that?

Cheers


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't understand how you can legislate out 'oil' products? They can go after VOC's and such - but heck latexes are abundant in VOC's as well. All I have to say is absolutely ridiculous - and California will notice absolutely no change in their smog levels either - sounds like a bunch of epa types were able to live off the public trough for a while. When are they going to legislate all those nasty High VOC emitting pine trees for contributing to smog - what a joke!


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

We only use oil when brushing interior trim or doors. Otherwise we are spraying those surfaces and it is waterbase and I will fight tooth and nail with HO or GC to make it that way. Almost always works.


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## Primer Guy (Apr 20, 2007)

You might try Latex X-tender rather than Floetrol to reduce brushstokes, keeps the brush from dragging and keeps open time longer. 2-4 oz/ gallon recommended. That is 1/2 to 1/4 the amount of Floetrol you need. Unit price is the same so it turns out to be much cheaper. Latex -Xtender leaves no residue in the paint nor does it yellow. Remember, the additive is a fugitive chemical and completely disappears in 24 hours so you will need to add more if you don't use the gallon in that time frame.


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Alkyd products are superior.

Lead based paints even better yet!

We use "painter friendly" latex products for 95% of tasks.

And some additives are now suspect... watcha gonna do?

Latex won't last as long. They should repaint periodically anyway!
Good for painters...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Oils aren't going away
> 
> Can't buy oil based interior paints in Maryland, and the big box stores (at least Lowe's) does not carry oil base at all.
> 
> ...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I don't understand how you can legislate out 'oil' products? They can go after VOC's and such - but heck latexes are abundant in VOC's as well. All I have to say is absolutely ridiculous - and California will notice absolutely no change in their smog levels either - sounds like a bunch of epa types were able to live off the public trough for a while. When are they going to legislate all those nasty High VOC emitting pine trees for contributing to smog - what a joke!


 
We decided to make the change when we realized with oil products that the types of chemicals in them - stoddard solvent, crystalline silica - were not chemicals we wanted daily exposure to over the long haul any longer. Further, it is the dust generated on in between coat sanding of these coatings that can be particularly harmful.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Primer Guy said:


> You might try Latex X-tender rather than Floetrol to reduce brushstokes, keeps the brush from dragging and keeps open time longer. 2-4 oz/ gallon recommended. That is 1/2 to 1/4 the amount of Floetrol you need. Unit price is the same so it turns out to be much cheaper. Latex -Xtender leaves no residue in the paint nor does it yellow. Remember, the additive is a fugitive chemical and completely disappears in 24 hours so you will need to add more if you don't use the gallon in that time frame.


Yep, That is what I have used in the past, I agree I like it better than floetrol but it still doesn't lay down like oil impervo with a little penotrol. Got a job coming up painting all the trim in a house but no doors. Oil was used originally so satin impervo is up to bat.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Oils aren't going away - they can't legislate like that. In fact - these companies lobbied government and put the brakes on the epa for a while. Most latex paints are just as bad with voc's as their oil based cousins.


From an article here in 2005...
"Similar rules have been in effect for a while in California, and restrictive oil-paint laws are being crafted in many northern states. But the mid-Atlantic region has not made as much progress reducing overall pollution as New England has, so the paint restrictions kicked in first in this area. Since Jan. 1, stores in the District, Northern Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Delaware and New York have not been able to order most of the oil-based paints commonly used in household and commercial applications."
Not sure what other states have joined the club yet? Larger stores still sell it though. Places like SW, Home Depot, Lowes, ect have stock piles of it, so are allowed to sell it until their supply runs out, which I'm sure they re-stocked when the rules were coming into effect. :whistling2:


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## NuView Painting (Sep 25, 2007)

didnt i make this post last year..lol, OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

CobraCDN said:


> I have nothing to quote, but I had heard they had legislated out oil base products residentially in California.. anyone confirm that?


Yes
Cali has tons of regional crap going on, but basically they need to (or will soon) test paints for VOCs _after_ tinting out there
As all tints (well, most) are solvent based, that creates a huge problem
Most areas the bases are tested _w/o tint

_That means in SoCal, some heavy tinted latex paints are out...because of the high amount of solvent based tint

I'm pretty sure Rich says R.I. has no oil coatings on the shelf already
There's some oil paints I can no longer get in MA
Cali coating rules: http://www.arb.ca.gov/coatings/coatingsrules.htm


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## Primer Guy (Apr 20, 2007)

The VOC rules are difficult for manufacturers to keep up with. There are basically 3 sets of rules depending on where you are. The VOC states which include most coastal states. This expands to the Great Lakes states in 2009. The non regulated states which tend to be in the middle of the country. The third is the special Southern California rules commonly called the South Coast rule which is the most restrictive.

All of the rules exempt coatings sold in quarts or less and aerosols. The South Coast rule is 100 g/l for VOCs going to 50 g/ls. This eliminates most oil based alkyds. The small loophole in the law is that Acetone emissions are exempt. Some manufacturers including us have reformulated some of our products (400W for one) to meet these standards. Our 400W ES version works just as well but is a little thinner. I suspect all states will eventually go to the OTC rules and we expect most will eventually follow the South Coast rules. We have been investing in research to keep ahead of the game as we reformulate to mostly water based products.

As a side note- remember low VOCs protect the ozone not the painter. Always take the proper precaution in handling and spraying water based products.


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## KeirK (Nov 30, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Yes
> Cali has tons of regional crap going on, but basically they need to (or will soon) test paints for VOCs _after_ tinting out there
> As all tints (well, most) are solvent based, that creates a huge problem
> Most areas the bases are tested _w/o tint_
> ...


I think they will more likely impose regulation on the tints themselves, I couldnt imagine having to make a MSDS for every color. I am thankfull we dont even have those issues, but the other manufacturers would never stand for that. It would be easier to just change the tints to comply. Think about custom colors, it would take a week to get the paint tested before you could use it. Probably not practical. 
It is an everchanginglandscape, hopefully we will get clarity in the years to come. Meanwhile, we dont have those issues with our products!


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