# Interior door paint keep sagging



## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi guys, so Im a contractor, and hired an interior painter to spray a customers interior solid core doors. 18 of them. They wer pre primed, and they were hit with scotch brite, then primed, and sprayed, standing up. The paint was purchased from miller, and I asked for the best paint they had for the interior doors, and they sold me kelley moore epoxy type paint. The first coat went on, and they came out horrible. sagging everywhere. The painter thought that it may have been too cold. So, they all came back out, all got sanded, and redone, same thing. Sags everywhere. the painter is claiming that the paint is just bad, as he is using the finset tip miller sells, turned down the pressure on the sprayer, and he said there is nothing he can do to keep it from happening. This will now be round 3, on $5k of doors. Im at a loss here. They are all in a very dry garage, about 75/80 degrees, two small fans going. This painter has been in the profession for 20 years, and saids he has never seen anything like this before. At this point, I feel its best to get in contact with miller, and discuss it with them, as this is going to cost about $2500 to have all sanded down, and redone.  Any ideas of why this is happening and how to move forward? Im just frustrated as were slowly runing $5k in doors


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

kelley moore durapoxy.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I dont see why it would cost you money the painter should fix it for free unless his out is that you picked the product. Is this a Painter you have worked with before with good results or a first time using him. 

That looks like applicator error to me. I could maybe understand the first time it doing that with him not knowing the product and being cold but the second coat he should have been able to control it or if not with an airless used a HVLP and put much less on.

Looking at the picture again thats applicator error way to much on did you measure the wet mil thickness?


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

At this point they need to stripped, sanded, primed and painted. I suggest spraying them horizontally like this.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

jacob33 said:


> I dont see why it would cost you money the painter should fix it for free unless his out is that you picked the product. Is this a Painter you have worked with before with good results or a first time using him.
> 
> That looks like applicator error to me. I could maybe understand the first time it doing that with him not knowing the product and being cold but the second coat he should have been able to control it or if not with an airless used a HVLP and put much less on.
> 
> Looking at the picture again thats applicator error way to much on did you measure the wet mil thickness?


have not measure wet mil thickness

basically the painter is saying that its the paint. He said he thougth he was doing it too heavy, and he tried it as light as possible and it still happened. I have used him for work before and its all been extremely good. He has never used this brand product. First time he thought it was too damp. We have them in a garage, all taped off, with a window cracked half way, one heater, and two fans. Guessing around 75 degrees the first coat, then 4 days later, 80 degrees for the second. He said the condition was perfect for it. he has used miller durashield( i think thats what its called), and is very familiar with it. We did get some doors out of it that look flawless, but about 70% are like this. thank you for the help. I had a buddy who had paint once that wouldnt stick to the doors, and it turned out to be defective paint. I just dont know if this is his fault, or bad product.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

I do plannin on having them all redone, just need to figure out who is going to pay for it, as the painter feels that its the paint quality. This was a product I picked out, but he was ok with it, and miller said its the best of the best. The paint is cheap, its the labor to redo them.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I have never used Miller products, but those pictures, especially the 2nd and 3rd photos, sure appear as though the painter applied way too much paint. 

Many brands of trim paint will sag if sprayed too slowly and heavily and with the wrong tip. For example, I have found that, to prevent sags and drips, SW ProClassic waterborne semi-gloss has to be sprayed first with a quick tack coat. I use a Graco 310 fine finish tip. The second coat can be a tad heavier, but not a lot heavier. The doors should be able to be sprayed vertically, although horizontally is better. Others on here have mentioned similar problems and techniques using BM Advance. 

Good luck, I hope it turns out for you.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

SemiproJohn said:


> I have never used Miller products, but those pictures, especially the 2nd and 3rd photos, sure appear as though the painter applied way too much paint.
> 
> Many brands of trim paint will sag if sprayed too slowly and heavily and with the wrong tip. For example, I have found that, to prevent sags and drips, SW ProClassic waterborne semi-gloss has to be sprayed first with a quick tack coat. I use a Graco 310 fine finish tip. The second coat can be a tad heavier, but not a lot heavier. The doors should be able to be sprayed vertically, although horizontally is better. Others on here have mentioned similar problems and techniques using BM Advance.
> 
> Good luck, I hope it turns out for you.


this is a major bummer. We got 10 out of the 17 doors that look good. We did them vertically, just as they would stand in the house. Now thought Im not sure I want him to continue using the paint, as I don't know if its the issue.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

what i find strange, is in areas, there would be just one drip/run. Like a pimple on the door. If you overspray, wouldnt you have it in a large area like the pics above, and not just one dimple here or there? just seems strange to me


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

The product was applied way to heavy.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

ok so the 20 year painter screwed up. Hard for me to beleive, as I have seen his work and he is one of the most anal guys ive worked with. But if that seems to be the consensus here. You guys are the pros.


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## graphite9 (Oct 24, 2016)

Also, he did 17 doors, shaker style standard sized, and I think he put down about 3 gallons overall for the first application.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I agree with others that it appears to be overapplied..


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I like Durapoxy. I haven't had hardly any issues except for learning experiences like not not covering a door knob hole on a interior/exterior door. The air coming through that hole made the paint run.
There are plenty of variables and we probably have to be there to know the reason they ran. 
Ultimately it may not matter, but what primer? Sanded, vacuumed, dusted and tacked before paint? Lots of others too. I don't like fans going when I spray, could be a factor. 
Looks like too much paint to me, and one thing about durapoxy is when you spray it, there is a look that it has, that makes you think you have to put more on. But not true. It flows together and the look goes away.
So smallest tip would be like 308, 408. 410 is great for this paint. Hope he didn't go bigger.

Good luck, wet sanding (w/220) is a mess but works great for runs.


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## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

Invest in the door deckers and if they turn out flawless the painter owes you some money.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

graphite9 said:


> ok so the 20 year painter screwed up. Hard for me to beleive, as I have seen his work and he is one of the most anal guys ive worked with. But if that seems to be the consensus here. You guys are the pros.


He might be a great painter, but this product might be a bit finicky.
It might have quite the learning curve.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

How's the humity in there? Is it plasic ed(spelling?) off?Temp and flow is important, but if the viscosity of the material is heavier than normal and the humidity is too high, sags and would be expected. Get a dehumidifier going. Buy one, or rent 1 from hd....that should help. Especially if it's raining outside...


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> How's the humity in there? Is it plasic ed(spelling?) off?Temp and flow is important, but if the viscosity of the material is heavier than normal and the humidity is too high, sags and would be expected. Get a dehumidifier going. Buy one, or rent 1 from hd....that should help. Especially if it's raining outside...


If I were to rent anything, it would be from a rental outfit instead of HD.It's not that they're the enemy, just that have plenty of business already and rental companies need that business. Gotta keep competition alive and well.


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## luny2nz (Nov 14, 2008)

For me,Kelly Moore dura poxy is tricky to spray. It used to be fool proof, but with the changes they have made the last couple of years its a pain. Especially in the winter. Looks like too much material on a cold door.
Everything has to be warm-the air,the doors,and the paint-and the windows opened halfway with the screens off. Maybe if he does a light fog coat and lets it tack up the first coat might have something to hang on to.
Wet sand and use a smaller tip.
Whats that saying- anyone can be a painter-a _good_ painter knows how to fix his (or her) mess up's.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

graphite9 said:


> ok so the 20 year painter screwed up. Hard for me to beleive, as I have seen his work and he is one of the most anal guys ive worked with. But if that seems to be the consensus here. You guys are the pros.


Did HE do the spraying or did one of his "helpers" do it? That paint is applied way to thick. He probably shouldn't have used an airless. (that is an assumption on my part. Did he use and airless?) If he did use an airless he should have done multiple light coats instead of getting all of his film build in one or two. Especially with the doors being sprayed in the vertical position. But in all honesty I have seen some pretty bad doors done by painters with much more supposed experience then that.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I like LPC's theory. Too many doors being sprayed in a small area without appropriate air flow in a humid environment. Many painters won't turn on fans for fear of blowing dust around. But frankly, you don't need that much airflow to assist in the coalescing process of the film formation, which unlike chemically cured coatings, requires evaporation. It may take several small fans to cover an area.

Paint batches are tested before distribution. A typical packaged paint failure would occur in transportation, or in storage. These failures will be obvious in their appearance, and applicability, i.e. cottage cheesy, draggy, or gummy.

I conclude it's operator error.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I use Kelley Moore's Dura-Poxy all the time for my interior work (applied with an airless with a fine finish tip) and have great results with it. 

Sorry, didn't read every response, but is this his first time spraying the product? If so, he may be used to how other products can be applied and just didn't have a handle on the nuances of this one. With that being said, with some practice it's not a particularly difficult product to use (unlike SW's Pro-Industrial Multi-Surface Acrylic which is pretty thin and can easily sag). Getting sags like the pics show likely means it was just too heavily sprayed.

And BTW, I don't think this is in any way Miller's fault or a "bad batch of paint" (always a convenient fallback position when something goes south).


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I like LPC's theory. Too many doors being sprayed in a small area without appropriate air flow in a humid environment. Many painters won't turn on fans for fear of blowing dust around. But frankly, you don't need that much airflow to assist in the coalescing process of the film formation, which unlike chemically cured coatings, requires evaporation. It may take several small fans to cover an area.
> 
> Paint batches are tested before distribution. A typical packaged paint failure would occur in transportation, or in storage. These failures will be obvious in their appearance, and applicability, i.e. cottage cheesy, draggy, or gummy.
> 
> I conclude it's operator error.


Spraying to many doors in an un-ventilated area could most certainly cause the paint film to sag. Moving the saturated air out of the environment is very important for this reason. Proper ventilation and lighter coats is the total solution to the problem

Also, if it were a product issue there would be thousand's of gallons of that product that they would be having complaints on. Paint companies (at least reputable ones such as Kelly-Moore or Miller's) are very quick to respond to batch problems, and wouldn't be very likely to leave a product that has that drastic of a problem in the market for very long. It wouldn't hurt to contact the store or your sales rep and let them know that you are having problems with it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> I use Kelley Moore's Dura-Poxy all the time for my interior work (applied with an airless with a fine finish tip) and have great results with it.
> 
> Sorry, didn't read every response, but is this his first time spraying the product? If so, he may be used to how other products can be applied and just didn't have a handle on the nuances of this one. With that being said, with some practice it's not a particularly difficult product to use (unlike SW's Pro-Industrial Multi-Surface Acrylic which is pretty thin and can easily sag). Getting sags like the pics show likely means it was just too heavily sprayed.
> 
> And BTW, I don't think this is in any way Miller's fault or a "bad batch of paint" (always a convenient fallback position when something goes south).


Airless spraying isn't necessarily the problem here, but if someone was inexperienced with using it for this type of application it could be a big reason for the thickness of the coating. Typically you don't have the control over paint volume with an airless that you do with other types of spray application. You have to rely on your orifice size to control the volume, and as that orifice starts to wear out it can significantly increase the volume of paint coming through it. A conventional or HVLP application gives you much more control over volume. That's why they don't use airless to paint automobiles.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

graphite9 said:


> Also, he did 17 doors, shaker style standard sized, and I think he put down about 3 gallons overall for the first application.




3 gallons is wayyyy to much for 1 coat on 17 doors. Even if the doors were 8' tall that's still too much paint.




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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PNW Painter said:


> 3 gallons is wayyyy to much for 1 coat on 17 doors. Even if the doors were 8' tall that's still too much paint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If my math is correct, and the doors were roughly 3'W X 7'H, that would be roughly 44 sf per door (including edges and contours). 44 X 17 = 748 sq ft. A gallon of Durapoxy spreads at a rate of 250-350 sq ft/gal 

Assuming the least amount of spread (including loss%), 750 sq ft/250 sq ft=3 gals.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> If my math is correct, and the doors were roughly 3'W X 7'H, that would be roughly 44 sf per door (including edges and contours). 44 X 17 = 748 sq ft. A gallon of Durapoxy spreads at a rate of 250-350 sq ft/gal
> 
> Assuming the least amount of spread (including loss%), 750 sq ft/250 sq ft=3 gals.


Math looks right to me, but like PNW when I saw the number of gallons I also thought "Wow, that's way too much paint." Hard to argue numbers though.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Math looks right to me, but like PNW when I saw the number of gallons I also thought "Wow, that's way too much paint." Hard to argue numbers though.


With the recommended WFT at 6 mils, the Durapoxy could have a lot of difficulty hanging before setting up. Particularly in a humid condition. The environment would have to be perfect. Also, the smoothness of the surface can have a huge effect. Were these metal or wood doors? there was mention of scotch brite scuffing which may actualy polish more than it creates "Tooth", or an anchor profile.

Surface temps combined with ambient temperatures and RH%, can have a significant affect on paint. I believe you can be under the minimum dew point threshold, even on a cold interior where you've introduced humidity with vaporized paint. Also, the process of solvent (or water) evaporation will cool the surface because it removes the heat from the film.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I like LPC's theory. Too many doors being sprayed in a small area without appropriate air flow in a humid environment. Many painters won't turn on fans for fear of blowing dust around. But frankly, you don't need that much airflow to assist in the coalescing process of the film formation, which unlike chemically cured coatings, requires evaporation. It may take several small fans to cover an area.
> 
> Paint batches are tested before distribution. A typical packaged paint failure would occur in transportation, or in storage. These failures will be obvious in their appearance, and applicability, i.e. cottage cheesy, draggy, or gummy.
> 
> I conclude it's operator error.


Too small an area, not enough flow between doors. The humidity hangs there. If the walls and floors have plastic, they're likely dripping with condensation...at least in some areas. Likely a concrete floor covered in plastic and/or drops. Warm air rises, water is heavier...dunno. it was pretty muggy and wet last week here In Seattle. He's using miller which indicates pnw (didn't look at the profile) but it's been wet here for sure. I had a tough time getting my trim to dry last week in a home bagged off, 74 degrees, big fan blowing, lath and plaster walls/lid freshly skimmed, single paned windows, 1 of which was 1/2 open....still had to babysit the trim for a bit... We were tipping it off anyway but the humidity wanted to stay at about 90%. Dehumidifier brought it down to 35 or so pretty quickly. Tis the season in the great nw....I had a job go like that about 10 yes ago on a bunch of doors in a garage...same time of year. Good luck op.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

When I'm spraying more than 10 doors upright in an area, I like to keep my HVLP handy to use for the hot air. Of course you to make sure the place is swept and relatively dust free. After I'm done spraying, I kick that thing on and flash dry the areas threatening to sag.

I concur with everyone's comments on the humidity. Humidity is the enemy! The paint can't cure when the air is just as wet as the paint.


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## fipple (Oct 12, 2016)

If it was the paint ,it would surely have sagged in more places overall....Sadly,i believe its the painters application....Possibly didnt mix/stir the body of the paint enough & not moving the gun consistently....I dont want to knock on the guy,but if it was a paint fail,it would be represented in more places consistantly.


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## russjp (Oct 13, 2016)

If it was a problem with the paint wouldn`t every door be sagging ? I make no claims to be an expert sprayer and the pics highlight why i don`t spray in customers houses currently and use my own home to perfect the process but even to a spraying novice like myself i`d say thats purely a poor finish from equipment not being used correctly.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

russjp said:


> If it was a problem with the paint wouldn`t every door be sagging ? I make no claims to be an expert sprayer and the pics highlight why i don`t spray in customers houses currently and use my own home to perfect the process but even to a spraying novice like myself i`d say thats purely a poor finish from equipment not being used correctly.


Yep. As any of us who do fine finish work know, every brand of paint, and even some different lines within the same brand, have their own learning curve. Getting used to their peculiarities and then getting your equipment adjusted for consistently (or at least close to it) good results takes practice. That's why I prefer to stay with one or two products that I know and like rather than switching around all the time. Personally, I would never work with a new (for me) product on a customer's job. There are just too many opportunities for issues.


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## AtomicPainting (Sep 5, 2016)

I may be wrong, but that looks like application error with an unfamiliar product on the painters end. He agreed to use the product, he should have some responsibility with the fix.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

graphite9 said:


> Hi guys, so *Im a contractor*, and hired an interior painter to spray a customers interior solid core doors. 18 of them. They wer pre primed, and they were hit with scotch brite, then primed, and sprayed, standing up. The paint was purchased from miller, and I asked for the best paint they had for the interior doors, and they sold me kelley moore epoxy type paint. The first coat went on, and they came out horrible. sagging everywhere. The painter thought that it may have been too cold. So, they all came back out, all got sanded, and redone, same thing. Sags everywhere. the painter is claiming that the paint is just bad, as he is using the finset tip miller sells, turned down the pressure on the sprayer, and he said there is nothing he can do to keep it from happening. This will now be round 3, on $5k of doors. Im at a loss here. They are all in a very dry garage, about 75/80 degrees, two small fans going. This painter has been in the profession for 20 years, and saids he has never seen anything like this before. At this point, I feel its best to get in contact with miller, and discuss it with them, as this is going to cost about $2500 to have all sanded down, and redone.  Any ideas of why this is happening and how to move forward? Im just frustrated as were slowly runing $5k in doors


Dude, where you're at? Do you have a clue what the painter is? 17 doors = $2500? I'll work for you on every 17 door day basis for the rest of my life)

30 doors, 2 hours, no runs, Miller AcriNamel, beautiful finish, high velocity fan, pine tree setup. Wish you find someone, who can finish, not just apply whatever.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

That's how I paint MDF doors standing up with BM Advance, I do two quick passes, no sagging.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> That's how I paint MDF doors standing up with BM Advance, I do two quick passes, no sagging.
> 
> 
> How to paint a door with BM Advance standing up. - YouTube


The OP was using a AAA or straight airless?? Big big difference . 

Nice work BTW very professional 👍🏻


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

If I may , it takes a good journeyman to spray vertical surfaces with a airless. Correct tip size ,correct thinning of material and weather all play a factor. When you add air like HVLP, Convential or the now everybody has to have one AAA it's different ballgame. 

I see so many guys and hire lots guys over last 35 plus years tell me they can spray and guess what they can't. There was no YouTube back in the day and being self taught isn't always a success . Also being taught by someone who also can't spray but thinks he can isn't always a success. This board , YouTube , FB painter groups have changed the game for sure. But personally the wealth of knowledge I got from the old time mechanics was priceless. Just my HO.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Say what you want about this guy ( and lots of us here have including me). He's a airless spraying fool pretty much all he does. My point being if he sprayed the doors in this video with a different product even with the best technique might have run like a siv as we say. Not saying the OP"s problem wasn't application error but if it was he's getting a ton of info on this thread for sure.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Say what you want about this guy ( and lots of us here have including me). He's a airless spraying fool pretty much all he does. My point being if he sprayed the doors in this video with a different product even with the best technique might have run like a siv as we say. Not saying the OP"s problem wasn't application error but if it was he's getting a ton of info on this thread for sure.
> 
> http://youtu.be/b7Uq_8DDqI0


I really want to show this guy what arching is, and that he's doing it.
Maybe show him with a dfg before her paints, and after, think maybe he'll get the idea? Oh, and lose the extension wand

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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> The OP was using a AAA or straight airless?? Big big difference .
> 
> Nice work BTW very professional 👍🏻


Thanks thinkpainting/nick for the complement, I was using the Grago 595 AAA with the flat tip.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

"flat tip".. hm? Is there semigloss one? Just wondering?


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

goga said:


> "flat tip".. hm? Is there semigloss one? Just wondering?


:surprise:


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm bumping this thread to ask a technical question. How exactly do you execute a tack coat? It seems self explanatory. But nothing is here. So input is greatly appreciated 

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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Just move the spray gun like twice as fast, maybe back up an inch or two from regular distance away. 

Or just think about a very light coat that doesn't cover the surface entirely.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Thanks thinkpainting/nick for the complement, I was using the Grago 595 AAA with the flat tip.




I'm curious, but does the flat tip make much of a difference in the quality of the finish compared to a fine finish tip? 


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> I'm curious, but does the flat tip make much of a difference in the quality of the finish compared to a fine finish tip?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes it does, if you are using Air-assisted airless spray. 
To me the reverse fine finish tip is garbage when use with the Air-assisted airless gun as the G40, the reverse tip clogged all the time and need to be clean every 3 to 4 minutes.

To answer your question. The fine finish tip is good but need more or higher pressure to eliminate the tails, remember with lower pressure you get a better finish.

"Air-Assisted Airless uses a high-pressure fluid supply for atomization and compressed air at the cap for pattern control. It’s used to spray medium to high viscosity fluids and delivers a finish quality that is better than Airless, but not as high quality as Air Spray."
"Air-assisted airless spray atomization is created by hydraulic force, which is less than airless so it atomizes the center of the pattern. A fluid tip is used to determine the pattern size and fluid flow rate. Air is then applied to assist in filling out the pattern. An aircap is used to complete the spray pattern and eliminate the tails. The lower pressure and the air-assist create finer atomization for a finer finish than airless."

Hope this help. Dan


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