# All the SW hate?



## Lynchburg (Nov 1, 2019)

As I read through topics there seems to be a lot of hate towards SW. Is their paint that bad? Other than one PPG they are the only store in my area and have several. I see a lot talking about BM but they have zero stores in my area and I am not driving 40 minutes to get paint. Only place that has BM around me is ACE hardware or a True Value.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Nobody likes the guy at the top. Not the best paint but they are probably the biggest supplier. My local ace went belly up. It was great for nuts & bolts.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

No, not everyone hates it, but a few here are very outspoken in their dislike. Just like any product, some have had good experiences with their products, others not so much.


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## Nsomepaint (Sep 16, 2017)

I'm happy to see this post, I've been wondering the same thing. I've used sw for years and haven't had any real problems. Recently I switched to BM and they really do have some great products. Although now I'm thinking of going back to SW. I'm finding as a business owner (I'm just myself and 2 guys) the convenience is very important. Time is money and my obligations are to provide for my family, and not feed my ideals.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Hey, I'm 40 years in with SW. As I've stated before on here, my local SW is one of the absolute best in the country. It's a training store and most of the employees there have at LEAST 10 years of experience. The manager has been with the company for 27 years. I'm one of the few here on Painttalk that actually enjoy going into my local SW store.

Do I like their pricing policies and the monthly 30 - 40% off sales? No. Do I like all of their products? No. But once you get a feel for their products you find a nice niche. I've had great success using SuperPaint and ProClassic. I have jobs going on 10 - 15 years that look really, really great after all those years. I've had failures too. Deck stain products at SW are a huge disappointment. Ceiling paint at SW is not good at all. I've tried to move onto to BM a few times, but, their stores are out of the way or they close shop leaving us painters high and dry. I'm sticking it out with SW. After 40 years, I guess I'll close out my career with them.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm with you gym, my sw store is fantastic and I've always had great reps. 

Btw I learned yesterday that there's a promar ceiling paint. I'm going to give it a try, I recently switched from master hide to 400 but supposedly the promar ceiling paint is better. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Kelly Moore and Sherwin Williams are similar in that they both have many stores conveniently located in most jurisdictions. And as stated above, convenience and access is very important for a painting contractor. Minimizing logistical challenges is key to any operation. 

Is KM and SW the best out there? Of course not. BM consistently offers better paint. But when many of these stores selling BM paint have to balance their attention with Louie Tortillo looking for a wing nut in the hardware isle, or with Liz and Elaine debating wallpaper patterns at "Dave's Paper, Paint, and Flowers", right there next to Dippin' Donuts in Logan's strip mall, circa 1982, it can be a turn off to trades painters.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Like all brands S-W has their ups and downs. As far as customer service in my area sw has them all covered like a wet blanket. That to me is worth just as much if not more than the paint.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I hate SW, cuz their paint hatbands more often than not, and is the worst for touchups out of everyone. If I go into a house, and use the clients old paint from SW, is guaranteed not to touch up anywhere close, especially with anything ProMar. With BM, KM, or PPG, it'll usually touchup just fine, even with 8 year old paint. 

Sherwins higher end paints arent bad, but their lower end paints (pro mar, especially) are easily the worst on the market. Its gotten to the point where I can tell if walls were painted with Promar by looking at the ceiling cut in. Its always a bit lighter.

I wont get into the customer service, cuz that varies by store, but I've had the worst service from various SW's across the country.

My opinion is Kelly Moore has the best contractor grade paint. KM Professional is quite a bit better than ultraspec or speedhide. And Durapoxy is the best straight latex trim paint money can buy. And their Acryplex line is not as good as regal, or Duration, but its still damn good.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For me, BM has just as good of store distribution in my area, not counting Ace Hardware stores. Add in the that the employees at the BM stores have much more experience than SW stores, and it is a win for BM. Plus SW still does not know what a satin sheen is supposed to be.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm not going to say it's STUPID to hate Sherwin Williams, because that would be stupid. But, having not said that, I think that most people might _dislike_ them because of their _"Cover The Earth"_ big business attitude. I just did the math and I've rolled and sprayed just shy of a gazillion gallons of mostly 200 eggshell. I might have even cut in some of it, but let's not get into that. Anyways, it's fine by me. I do prefer most BM paints but you can't always get what you want, and it's not always been my call.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DeanV said:


> ...Plus SW still does not know what a satin sheen is supposed to be.


I agree. Everyone else seems to be in line with flat, matte, eggshell, satin, semi-gloss, gloss. SW has it flat, matte, satin, eggshell, semi-gloss, and gloss. Drives me fricken crazy!

Other than that, we also have a great store. They are also a training store which can sometimes be an issue - but I know who to ask for when I call.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

SW employs anticompetitive marketing and pricing strategies while offering a mediocre product and a toxic corporate culture. If convenience is your only reason to shop SW by all means continue to do so because soon that will be your only option.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Kelly Moore and Sherwin Williams are similar in that they both have many stores conveniently located in most jurisdictions. And as stated above, convenience and access is very important for a painting contractor. Minimizing logistical challenges is key to any operation.
> 
> Is KM and SW the best out there? Of course not. BM consistently offers better paint. But when many of these stores selling BM paint have to balance their attention with Louie Tortillo looking for a wing nut in the hardware isle, or with Liz and Elaine debating wallpaper patterns at "Dave's Paper, Paint, and Flowers", right there next to Dippin' Donuts in Logan's strip mall, circa 1982, it can be a turn off to trades painters.


Seriously Kelly Moore? Well, by gosh by golly let me run off to KC to pick me up a gallon, along with some bbq!:surprise:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Fman said:


> I'm not going to say it's STUPID to hate Sherwin Williams, because that would be stupid. But, having not said that, I think that most people might _dislike_ them because of their _"Cover The Earth"_ big business attitude. I just did the math and I've rolled and sprayed just shy of a gazillion gallons of mostly 200 eggshell. I might have even cut in some of it, but let's not get into that. Anyways, it's fine by me. I do prefer most BM paints but you can't always get what you want, and it's not always been my call.


Dude, as you and the Stones have so eloquently said:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

DeanV said:


> For me, BM has just as good of store distribution in my area, not counting Ace Hardware stores. Add in the that the employees at the BM stores have much more experience than SW stores, and it is a win for BM. Plus SW still does not know what a satin sheen is supposed to be.


Ever use valspar satin? That stuff has more shine than most semi glosses. The nicest sheen I've found from sw for walls is SuperPaint velvet, which is what I'd consider to be a nice satin finish. 

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> Seriously Kelly Moore? Well, by gosh by golly let me run off to KC to pick me up a gallon, along with some bbq!:surprise:


 
Regionally, KM is very accessible. Although you could probably have it delivered along with your next online order of taco shells.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> But when many of these stores selling BM paint have to balance their attention with Louie Tortillo looking for a wing nut in the hardware isle, or with Liz and Elaine debating wallpaper patterns at "Dave's Paper, Paint, and Flowers", right there next to Dippin' Donuts in Logan's strip mall, circa 1982, it can be a turn off to trades painters.


Dave is also doing small engine repairs and income tax returns now. You know Dave's motto..."never let them leave the store with a nickel in their pocket".

I'm waiting until Feb. 13 for my next visit....drop off the mower for a tune up and my tax info, pick up some flowers for the little lady, and stop at Dippin' for a half dozen of those heart shaped donuts with sprinkles. Greta will be proud, reducing my carbon footprint.

I just have to remember to get my parking validated. Dave owns the lot and only validates at time of purchase. Walk out the door without getting your ticket punched, and you're paying for parking.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Regionally, KM is very accessible. Although you could probably have it delivered along with your next online order of taco shells.


So you still go to the store to buy yours? How 20th century of you!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

same reason people hated Bell telephone.....US steel.....Standard oil...and on and on. They are so close to being a monopoly it isn't even funny. And when that happens, prices will skyrocket, quality and service will plummet. And the professional painters will be caught in the middle. You'll work harder to get a good paint finish and pay more for paint from people who are one step from working as a Mcdonald's milkshake machine mechanic.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> No, not everyone hates it, but a few here are very outspoken in their dislike. Just like any product, some have had good experiences with their products, others not so much.


and some of us worked for them and know that they had more complaints about SW products than any other product line they have ever sold. By a loooong margin too. Probably 25 to 1 at least.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> SW employs anticompetitive marketing and pricing strategies while offering a mediocre product and a toxic corporate culture. If convenience is your only reason to shop SW by all means continue to do so because soon that will be your only option.


yup. and sooner than anyone on this forum would think. And the "corporate culture"? Absolutely disgusting. And in some cases quite illegal.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Hey PAC, you are by far the most outspoken critic of S-W. Why are you so bitter/scorned? You seem like an intelligent guy. What did they do to you for you to always be driving the haters bandwagon?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Hey PAC, you are by far the most outspoken critic of S-W. Why are you so bitter/scorned? You seem like an intelligent guy. What did they do to you for you to always be driving the haters bandwagon?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh thank you!:wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:


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## Lynchburg (Nov 1, 2019)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'm with you gym, my sw store is fantastic and I've always had great reps.
> 
> Btw I learned yesterday that there's a promar ceiling paint. I'm going to give it a try, I recently switched from master hide to 400 but supposedly the promar ceiling paint is better.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


I too saw the promar ceiling yesterday and want to try it. I normally use promar 200 for my ceilings and superpaint for walls. My good friend is the regional manager and she tells me her honest opinion on what she thinks is good and what is not worth it. My local store people are amazing and seem to be honest as well. I don't paint everyday but yet they still know me by name every time come in the store. 

They have told me that the satin sheen is not a true satin but not exactly a true eggshell either. That is what I use a lot. I don't really use any of the commercial grade stuff.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Hey PAC, you are by far the most outspoken critic of S-W. Why are you so bitter/scorned? You seem like an intelligent guy. What did they do to you for you to always be driving the haters bandwagon?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


where do I start.....from the substandard products that they are well aware they are gouging people for...
the unbelievable way they treat their long term "excellent" employees..
ongoing and never ending nepotism...
Hiring employees as "favors" to friends and political figures....
barely controlled sexism....
and on, and on.
For 10 years I was "Mr. Sherwin Williams. Worked hard, got excellent performance reviews....saw many, many great employees get ****ed over for no good reasons.
Then it happened to me. Completely out of the blue I got screwed out of what I had been told for many years was my next position (with a fairly large increase in pay btw.) by a district manager who hired his college room mate to take that position. Even though that person had no paint store experience prior to the 18 months he worked in a retail store. He even attempted to not pay me a salary increase he had been sitting on for 8 months until I mentioned it was a legal issue not to do so. This district manager hired his college roommate for a position he was not even close to being qualified for without ever posting the position as "open" so anyone else (me) could apply for it.(a serious company policy violation)
I was offered a lateral move from San Diego to Los Angeles at the time but had conveniently found a job with Duron paint while I was on vacation. So I gave notice and moved back to Ohio. And I've said **** them ever since.

This all happened after 8 years of excellent performance reviews and double digit sales increases at my store. 

Now shall I start with the female assistant managers (yes plural) that where taken to a hotel room and plowed by another district manager and a sales manager. After several rounds of alcoholic beverages of course. And more than once and not the same female managers. In fact, one of those assistant store managers got pregnant and the District manager married her.

And even more than that but i'm getting bored.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> where do I start.....from the substandard products that they are well aware they are gouging people for...
> the unbelievable way they treat their long term "excellent" employees..
> ongoing and never ending nepotism...
> Hiring employees as "favors" to friends and political figures....
> ...


PAC, from what you share it seems lots of the employees got screwed.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Did they name the kid Sherwin ?


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

They whacked Frazee, Old Quaker and Decrotrend, Word has it they broke the Dutch boys legs. Don't mess with SW


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

So Pac what are you doing now?


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

PACman said:


> where do I start.....from the substandard products that they are well aware they are gouging people for...
> 
> the unbelievable way they treat their long term "excellent" employees..
> 
> ...




Sounds like an hour on Harvey weiststein’s casting couch


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

kmp said:


> So Pac what are you doing now?


Just lurking in the shadows like an embittered ex-mistress, eager to pounce on anyone who dares mention the name of his ex-love, always prepared to make it known how wrong we all are for not using a paint he carried which very few of us ever had access to, and warning us of the impending doom which will result from our decisions to favor convenience over the "little engine that could".


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Lynchburg said:


> I too saw the promar ceiling yesterday and want to try it. I normally use promar 200 for my ceilings and superpaint for walls. My good friend is the regional manager and she tells me her honest opinion on what she thinks is good and what is not worth it. My local store people are amazing and seem to be honest as well. I don't paint everyday but yet they still know me by name every time come in the store.
> 
> They have told me that the satin sheen is not a true satin but not exactly a true eggshell either. That is what I use a lot. I don't really use any of the commercial grade stuff.


I've used the promar 200 ceiling paint and it worked well for me. Covers much better than 200 white.


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## Alltime (Sep 28, 2013)

Im a de guy. SW has good xovers but I've found sw's weakest link is the delivery service. 5g min here, and if the schedule is full you might not even get it. The super paint line is good, though I'm pretty sure only comes in 3 sheens, flat, satin, and semi. Duration is good but overpriced. I will say some of their industrial coatings are pretty incredible. Armorshield and Polane systems are top notch for epoxies. One thing they seem to have over the competition are primary bases. Mostly special order but good for fade prone colors.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Alltime said:


> Im a de guy. SW has good xovers but I've found sw's weakest link is the delivery service. 5g min here, and if the schedule is full you might not even get it. The super paint line is good, though I'm pretty sure only comes in 3 sheens, flat, satin, and semi. Duration is good but overpriced. I will say some of their industrial coatings are pretty incredible. Armorshield and Polane systems are top notch for epoxies. One thing they seem to have over the competition are primary bases. Mostly special order but good for fade prone colors.


Superpaint comes in velvet which is an eggshell, that's what I use the most. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Just lurking in the shadows like an embittered ex-mistress, eager to pounce on anyone who dares mention the name of his ex-love, always prepared to make it known how wrong we all are for not using a paint he carried which very few of us ever had access to, and warning us of the impending doom which will result from our decisions to favor convenience over the "little engine that could".


that's what forums are for aren't they?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> They whacked Frazee, Old Quaker and Decrotrend, Word has it they broke the Dutch boys legs. Don't mess with SW


Duron, Valspar, over 300 other paint companies. In fact there never was a "core" company called Sherwin Williams. Just a continuous list of buyouts and take-overs stretching back to 1866. Just like all the great monopolies.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> Duron, Valspar, over 300 other paint companies. In fact there never was a "core" company called Sherwin Williams. Just a continuous list of buyouts and take-overs stretching back to 1866. Just like all the great monopolies.


Except they are not a monopoly, just a large paint company.

And are you saying there was *never* a company called Sherwin Williams which was a stand alone corporation?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Can't cover the world with just one paint company!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Except they are not a monopoly, just a large paint company.



A large paint company that employes monopolistic and anti-competitive pricing strategies to put competitors out of business. As in they will put a store in your town, give away product for free and once the local competition goes out of business employees get a bonus _then _they raise prices.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm kinda surprised that some folks are just now discovering the predatory capitalism that made America great.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Did they name the kid Sherwin ?


I heard they named him Sherman.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Brushman4 said:


> I heard they named him Sherman.


Da' Sherman Hemsley???:surprise:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> A large paint company that employes monopolistic and anti-competitive pricing strategies to put competitors out of business. As in they will put a store in your town, give away product for free and once the local competition goes out of business employees get a bonus _then _they raise prices.


There has been a Miller Paint company (a regional Northwest company) here in my town at least as long as SW has been here and both seem to have a healthy level of business (I shop both about half and half). About a year ago, a new store opened which sells BM products exclusively and they also seem to be doing fine. Plus we have a HD and several smaller hardware outfits that also sell paint (Ace?) though in smaller amounts. All of this in a town of about 60K. So if SW is indeed trying to destroy all the competition and capture the entire market, they are failing miserably.

Regardless, trying to outsell and out-maneuver your completion is not the definition of a monopoly.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'm with you gym, my sw store is fantastic and I've always had great reps.
> 
> Btw I learned yesterday that there's a promar ceiling paint. I'm going to give it a try, I recently switched from master hide to 400 but supposedly the promar ceiling paint is better.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


Yesterday? I've been using ProMar ceiling paint for 5 years. My go to ceiling paints are attached. I always keep 30 gallons of ceiling paint in my shop. The BM is better than Promar, but Promar is cheaper. 

RH - now do you understand why I believe the business should chose and purchase the paint?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

HC-Raad said:


> Yesterday? I've been using ProMar ceiling paint for 5 years. My go to ceiling paints are attached. I always keep 30 gallons of ceiling paint in my shop. The BM is better than Promar, but Promar is cheaper.
> 
> RH - now do you understand why I believe the business should chose and purchase the paint?


I've used the bm ceiling paint in the past and didn't find it to be worth the cost. But yeah until the other day I had no idea promar ceiling paint was a thing. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> Yesterday? I've been using ProMar ceiling paint for 5 years. My go to ceiling paints are attached. I always keep 30 gallons of ceiling paint in my shop. The BM is better than Promar, but Promar is cheaper.
> 
> RH - now do you understand why I believe the business should chose and purchase the paint?


I don’t recall myself, or anyone else here, ever saying it was better to have the customer buy the paint. Only that if it happens once in awhile, most of us are able to work with it. But, if it is that much of an issue for you, then you certainly have every right to refuse any work where the paint has already been bought.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> A large paint company that employes monopolistic and anti-competitive pricing strategies to put competitors out of business. As in they will put a store in your town, give away product for free and once the local competition goes out of business employees get a bonus _then _they raise prices.





RH said:


> There has been a Miller Paint company (a regional Northwest company) here in my town at least as long as SW has been here and both seem to have a healthy level of business (I shop both about half and half). About a year ago, a new store opened which sells BM products exclusively and they also seem to be doing fine. Plus we have a HD and several smaller hardware outfits that also sell paint (Ace?) though in smaller amounts. All of this in a town of about 60K. So if SW is indeed trying to destroy all the competition and capture the entire market, they are failing miserably.
> 
> Regardless, trying to outsell and out-maneuver your completion is not the definition of a monopoly.


In my town, PPG is killing SW as far as price on comparable products. Farrell Calhoun is in town too, and they are holding their own. All 3 have their strengths and weaknesses, and I do my best to maintain good relationships with all of them. I don't see any of them going out of business anytime soon. We need paint and they sell paint.........


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

HC-Raad said:


> Yesterday? I've been using ProMar ceiling paint for 5 years. My go to ceiling paints are attached. I always keep 30 gallons of ceiling paint in my shop. The BM is better than Promar, but Promar is cheaper.
> 
> RH - now do you understand why I believe the business should chose and purchase the paint?



508 is dead flat _any _color even deep bases that's the main reason to use it. Its basically regal in a dead flat finish.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Gwarel said:


> In my town, PPG is killing SW as far as price on comparable products. Farrell Calhoun is in town too, and they are holding their own. All 3 have their strengths and weaknesses, and I do my best to maintain good relationships with all of them. I don't see any of them going out of business anytime soon. We need paint and they sell paint.........



Is that an independent PPG dealer or a corporate owned store? Seeing two mega corporations battle to see who can give away product the cheapest is pretty sad.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Th brands themselves aren’t really important to me. I will buy where I get what I like and need, with convenience being a second consideration, and price a fairly distant third (usually).

Miller was my main go to store for a long time. But recent changes in their product line left me disappointed. So, I started getting my paint from SW. But I still like Miller for primer, stains, clear-coats, and sundries. 

I really like the new BM store. And the husband and wife team who run it are great. Their paints are obviously good but at almost twice the cost for Aura over Duration, and almost twenty bucks a gallon more for Regal, I just can’t justify the higher prices. The few times I’ve used BM have been because the HO went there and got a lot of help from the staff in choosing a color and so we owed it to the store to buy from them, or when a decorator has been involved and specified it.

I buy my rattle cans for my home or hobby projects from HD.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH, I had the same disappointment with Kelly Moore. That was my go to brand for years. I would proudly recommend it to anyone who asked. Now, I recommend BM to anyone who asks. 

In terms of the cost, I would still recommend BM regardless of their higher cost. Even if other manufacturers consider their product equal, or better. I just find most BM products to be more consistent than others. And as you know, consistency is extremely important to any operation. At the end of the day, I'm not interested in saving the homeowner a buck. Their financial flexibility is their business. (And to be fair to the men and women sustaining a business, I don't paint for homeowners any longer. But if I did! )


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## Pray4surf (Oct 18, 2013)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 508 is dead flat _any _color even deep bases that's the main reason to use it. Its basically regal in a dead flat finish.


This! I've found it touches up really well too. 

ProMar Ceiling paint is half the cost but most decorators feel it's a little grayish and not super white like BM's ceiling white.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Ceiling paint is cheaper for a reason...not as much of the "good stuff" in it that enables paint to perform. I always liked BM Regal (RWS for most of my career) for ceilings...not "dead flat", but nobody I know ever noticed the difference.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

To me, it all comes down to the right product for the situation. If I want a flat ceiling paint paint with ultimate hide, BM 508 is a no-brainer. If I'm doing an occupied interior with HO's who are sensitive to the smell of paint, BM Natura gets the job. Back in the day, Impervo was in a league all its' own. 

It's not a debate whether BM or KM are superior to SW. For a great many things, SW has what I need to get the job done quickly and above & beyond the customer's expectations. SW clearly does a massive amount of volume and will be exposed to that many more situations where their product, their customer service, or a combination thereof will fall short more often than others. The SW hate on these boards has been more than a distraction, it's been completely counterproductive to what we're trying to do when we log in to seek answers to questions or concerns. It's one thing to point out faults or shortcomings of certain products. It's another altogether to disparage an entire company at every opportunity vs. seeking answers to remedy the challenges we face when the sh.. hits the fan, especially when the ones doing the disparaging have the knowledge & experience to help the most if the wanted to.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> RH, I had the same disappointment with Kelly Moore. That was my go to brand for years. I would proudly recommend it to anyone who asked. Now, I recommend BM to anyone who asks.
> 
> In terms of the cost, I would still recommend BM regardless of their higher cost. Even if other manufacturers consider their product equal, or better. I just find most BM products to be more consistent than others. And as you know, consistency is extremely important to any operation. At the end of the day, I'm not interested in saving the homeowner a buck. Their financial flexibility is their business. (And to be fair to the men and women sustaining a business, I don't paint for homeowners any longer. But if I did! )


I think automatically recommending or only going with a relatively expensive paint is a luxury many painters may not have. Especially when they are submitting a bid that may be one of several the HO may be getting. Sure, you can have a conversation with them about why you may be higher because of the product you recommend and some may see the value in it, but to flatly declare that saving the HO some money isn’t a concern may not be a good business practice to follow - or at least a realistic one. Almost all of the jobs I am doing now are for repeat customers or are strong referrals from them, so I don’t typically worry too much about what my numbers are, but even the most loyal customer wants to feel the price they are paying is reasonable and not out of line.

Only doing interior work (when I did exteriors, I always recommended the best the customers could afford) I do have trouble recommending an expensive product when I feel that one almost half the cost will do a perfectly acceptable job. In fact, I honestly tell people that the paint I recommend for them is the one I use, or would use, when doing my own place. Now don’t get me wrong, Aura is a really good paint - very nice to use. And if I am going to being doing any kind of bright reds, I will recommend it because I know two coats will cover. Other than that, I just feel the extra cost isn’t worth it. Heck, I don’t even recommend the top of the line products from Miller, or SW. I feel their one notch down gives better value (cost, ease of application, durability, coverage, clean ability, etc). Seriously, these days most people will tire of a color and repaint before they really start to have issues with the durability of the paint on their walls. 

All of the above is based on my real world experience using these products, not advertising claims from the paint companies. And I have been doing this long enough to be getting jobs where I am repainting areas for some customers (or doing additional ones) so I can see how the previous jobs have held up. If I was seeing issues, I would certainly be re-evaluating what I am using (something I had to do with Miller when they changed their line).

So, the bottom line for me is to use a paint with good value that will do more than an adequate job (in normal circumstances) while also giving my customers a number that is fair and reasonable because - let’s face it - nobody likes to pay more than they really need to.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I've had the opportunity to use PPG, BM, KM and SW side by side in a pretty abusive environment, and I am most satisfied with BM, KM, PPG and SW, in that order (in terms of commercial/architectural painting).

But RH makes a real good point in that paint, in general, doesn't have the life cycle of other building materials. And if a homeowner tires often of trendy color schemes, BM can become an expensive option.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I've had the opportunity to use PPG, BM, KM and SW side by side in a pretty abusive environment, and I am most satisfied with BM, KM, PPG and SW, in that order (in terms of commercial/architectural painting).
> 
> But RH makes a real good point in that paint, in general, doesn't have the life cycle of other building materials. And if a homeowner tires often of trendy color schemes, BM can become an expensive option.



At least (as I mentioned in my last post) for interior painting of walls and ceilings. 

For interior trim, doors, or anything exterior, I would always recommend what I feel is the very best product, regardless of the price.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Funny and timely update. 

Went to my Miller store this morning to get some supplies for a job tomorrow and the manager is on duty. He comments that I haven’t been buying much paint from them so I explain why. He asks why I’m not using Evolution (their top paint) and I tell him I had a quote just last week from someone at the store and it is about $10 more per gallon than Duration, which I feel is a good product. So, he immediately gives me a $10 price reduction on it and says the DM will have it locked into my account as of tomorrow. All that and I wasn’t even complaining or expecting it - nor do I buy any kind of volume these days to justify it. Guess it must be because of my winsome ways. :devil3:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

RH said:


> I don’t recall myself, or anyone else here, ever saying it was better to have the customer buy the paint. Only that if it happens once in awhile, most of us are able to work with it. But, if it is that much of an issue for you, then you certainly have every right to refuse any work where the paint has already been bought.


I realize that. But I would like to see painters rejecting the idea of the HO buying and choosing the paints for their service.

And the scenario I would be referring to, where I reject the thought of the HO buying the paint, is when you are giving the estimate and the customer asks: "do I supply the paint or do you"? *Answer 100% of the time - "we do"!*

And the scenario where I would possibly accept the HO buying the paint is; at the estimate, if the customer says - "I already have the paint" then shows me the paint and I think it's enough and a workable product. This is the only exception to me where I would let the HO drive the ship.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've used the bm ceiling paint in the past and didn't find it to be worth the cost. But yeah until the other day I had no idea promar ceiling paint was a thing.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


The BM Gold Label is worth every penny. It not only covers better than SW ProMar 200, 400 and ProMar Ceiling paint, it's washable and looks like a higher quality paint. It really has a nice rich look to it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> I realize that. But I would like to see painters rejecting the idea of the HO buying and choosing the paints for their service.
> 
> And the scenario I would be referring to, where I reject the thought of the HO buying the paint, is when you are giving the estimate and the customer asks: "do I supply the paint or do you"? *Answer 100% of the time - "we do"!*
> 
> And the scenario where I would possibly accept the HO buying the paint is; at the estimate, if the customer says - "I already have the paint" then shows me the paint and I think it's enough and a workable product. This is the only exception to me where I would let the HO drive the ship.


In the last ten years, I can’t recall once having a customer ask me if they needed to supply the paint. Maybe it’s because when I give them my spiel about how the project will go I let them know early on that my number includes me getting it. I usually get an expression of relief from them when I say it since if they are hiring me to do the work, they want me to do the work.


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

RH said:


> Th brands themselves aren’t really important to me. I will buy where I get what I like and need, with convenience being a second consideration, and price a fairly distant third (usually).
> 
> Miller was my main go to store for a long time. But recent changes in their product line left me disappointed. So, I started getting my paint from SW. But I still like Miller for primer, stains, clear-coats, and sundries.
> 
> ...


The Ben line of paint is more equivalent to Duration than Aura or Regal, and I would be surprised if the BM dealer couldnt match or beat your pricing on Duration in that line. Regal would be more equivalent to Emerald based on ingredients and other such, and Aura is above that.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

KooLayed369 said:


> The Ben line of paint is more equivalent to Duration than Aura or Regal, and I would be surprised if the BM dealer couldnt match or beat your pricing on Duration in that line. Regal would be more equivalent to Emerald based on ingredients and other such, and Aura is above that.



duration is actually a styrene acrylic, like regal. Ben is similar to the old regal, a vinyl acrylic.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

SW has become the Home Depot of paint stores. I only shop them for one thing (wallpaper adhesive), everything else usually gets bought at a locally owned store.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

ProWallGuy said:


> SW has become the Home Depot of paint stores. I only shop them for one thing (wallpaper adhesive), everything else usually gets bought at a locally owned store.


I got my BM ordering all my paste for me now.


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## Eagle Cap Painter (Nov 14, 2016)

I prefer to shop at retailers where I can trust whatever I pull off the shelf to work. Too many SW products have failed me and cost me money to trust them, not to mention my dislike for their pricing and corporate styles. I pay more off the shelf for BM products, but I've paid the hidden SW cost of slowdown due to finicky products and fixing failures enough that I don't mind. Besides, I prefer shopping at places where the owners work rather than big box or franchise businesses.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

HC-Raad said:


> The BM Gold Label is worth every penny. It not only covers better than SW ProMar 200, 400 and ProMar Ceiling paint, it's washable and looks like a higher quality paint. It really has a nice rich look to it.


I think it's good for certain jobs, and not others. The problem is it's very quick drying, and has an ever so slight sheen compared to SW Masterhide, which is dead flat. It's not nearly as ****** as say, Behr ceiling paint, but there is a little. The positive is, it's a real true bright white, whereas most SW ceiling paints are grayer. So if the prep for the ceiling is on point and it's truly flat and smooth, then it's awesome. But for lower end work, I'd much prefer the SW ceiling paints, as with the dead flatness and a little bit of gray, it hides a lot of transgressions and problems. One low end apartment that was previously done in Superhide for everything, I painted the ceilings with Masterhide and the owners were impressed at how it hid so many problems. 

One other particular issue, too, with the yellow can BM ceiling paint is if you are using it is more sensitivity to environmental conditions, since it dries so quick. One job in particular something wonky was going on, and the owners of the house in winter kept their heat up, had halogens ceiling lights that added a lot of heat, and it was really dry overall and it would be dry in 20-30 seconds after putting it on. 

I'd actually like to try the PPG Gold Can ceiling paint, as supposedly it's almost as white as the BM yellow can, but with a longer dry time.


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