# Deck problem



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm having a problem with a deck and hoping for some insight on this one. Backyard patio, facing north, lots of shade, cedar fence and deck. Deck was first hit with BM RESTORE as my initial thought was that it was left unfinished, like the fence. Followed proper procedure. Let sit 20, agitated, and rinsed clean. Followed with BM BRIGHTEN, let sit 20, agitated, and rinsed. Did not lift off all discolouration. Moved up to REMOVE. Didn't seem to make a difference. The RESTORE seemed to work okay on the fencing, but after cleaning and neutralizing, there's black areas with streaking. I have tried a few variances in dilution so far, including straight REMOVE and BRIGHTEN on the deck boards. Suggestions? Photos below.


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

Here they are ...


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Power washer or garden hose rinse?


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

Pressure wash, low PSI. Not a fancy rig, just electric, but usually does the trick.


----------



## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

So you didn't get professional results from your homeowner tools. This surprises you?


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

mpminter said:


> So you didn't get professional results from your homeowner tools. This surprises you?


Doesn't take much pressure with the proper chemicals. Just goes slower because of GPM.


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

mpminter said:


> So you didn't get professional results from your homeowner tools. This surprises you?


I think given the scale of this project, the machine is more than adequate. I am not a homeowner, and although an electric pressure washer might be considered a "homeowner's tool", as I mentioned, it's served me well to-date. I would like to purchase a better rig, but that's a story for another day. Again, for the scale of this project, I think the unit being used is fine. As you probably know, the chemicals should be doing the heavy lifting anyway. I can offset the lack of gpm's by spending more time rinsing. Thank you for the unhelpful, condescending response.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Somehow your pics don't jive with your story. Straight up Remove allowed to sit, agitate with brush or broom while re-wetting with a light mist and rinse should not only remove the finish, but fir up the wood and turn it bright red to black. By the look of the pics, I would think that restore would have enough chemical to take care of that deck with a good pressure rinse. 

I agree with the above post that you need to invest in a better pressure washer. Electric machines are a worthless waste of time.


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Somehow your pics don't jive with your story. Straight up Remove allowed to sit, agitate with brush or broom while re-wetting with a light mist and rinse should not only remove the finish, but fir up the wood and turn it bright red to black. By the look of the pics, I would think that restore would have enough chemical to take care of that deck with a good pressure rinse.
> 
> I agree with the above post that you need to invest in a better pressure washer. Electric machines are a worthless waste of time.


Yes, I agree, it should. But as you can see, it didn't. I don't see how my story doesn't jive because the results fell short? Again, I used REMOVE first. That lifted off most of the grime, etc that you can see on the right of the first pic. What was left was the discoloration in the second pic. I stepped up to REMOVE, which didn't seem to have much effect at all. Again, I would like to buy a better rig. However, finishing this job with what I have currently is the reality. The electric machine may be a "worthless waste of time", but mine has made me money and produced good results so far. I will step up when my budget allows. I think it's obvious the rinsing is not the problem here.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

A few things stand out to me. Homeowner grade chems and improper washing technique are your culprits. You have stop/start lines and you may not have used enough pressure. A second wash, using board end to board end washing with distance being kept equal the whole time should get you the results you are looking for.


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

Ken, thanks for the reply. Was hoping to hear from you. I sent you a pm.


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Just a side note. Most of the homeowner products regardless of manufacturer are made and filled by one company.


----------



## O'Brien (Feb 24, 2011)

No change whatsoever after second wash.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I think what is remaining may be mold. Sometimes you can do everything right and it just doesn't come clean. I tell people its a pressure wand, not a magic wand. It takes awhile to be able to look at wood and know the right chem mixes, when to sand, what product to stain with, etc. If you put your everything into this job, move onto staining with a full bodied oil like Armstrong Clark and it will most likely look fine.


----------



## MNpainter (Jul 17, 2008)

BM remove works great for me most of the time. However, the wood MUST be dry when you apply it. someone mentioned rewetting when you go to was it off, very important, btw turn the pressure up. 
hopes this helps. steve


----------



## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Why hasn't this deck been sanded thoroughly?!?!!?

You'd have NEW looking wood, completely even color & stain-penetration, and would've been done days ago....

I've sanded my 16y/o Redwood decks' floor twice, and my steps 3 times.
No offense meant AT ALL, but mine looks 75 times nicer than the deck-floor pictured here. 

There's a thread at the Gardenweb in the Paint forum where I've got pics.

Faron


----------



## crish01 (Aug 9, 2012)

Hi dear i have a suggestion that It does sound like a steep price, but I cannot see what exactly they are doing or will have to do. Did you get any other estimates, before hiring them? You should of! Always get two or three estimates and ask questions. Don't be shy. See if they are all saying the same thing (materials, measurements, etc.).


----------



## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing. I'll hit real stubborn areas with a belt sander, but that mildew should have come off. 






Faron79 said:


> Why hasn't this deck been sanded thoroughly?!?!!?
> 
> You'd have NEW looking wood, completely even color & stain-penetration, and would've been done days ago....
> 
> ...


----------



## DonP (Jul 18, 2012)

I kind of admire his resolve to get the job done with the tools on hand. I had a few electric washers back in the day. They fit in the car trunk that I was painting out of! Times have changed, I like my van and pro quality tools now, but I'm not so quick to judge a guy for working with what he has. That being said, it's damn near impossible to do a good deck wash with a low power machine. For what you've spent in chemicals you could have rented a decent washer for the day. Also, I think bleach works just about as well.


----------



## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

No-no-no.....

DON'T use a belt-sander!!
Rent a 12"x18" vibrating flat-plate sander. Also, buy a few 60-grit sanding sheets, and some backer-pads to cushion the paper.

Here's my pics from the other forum-thread:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/paint/msg0313211818739.html

Again...my deck was ~12 yrs. old in the pics.

Faron


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

We RARELY sand decks other than handrails on old decks and perhaps sand small places where it isn't feasible to spray stripper. I read all of that on Garden Web and maybe my ego is getting the best of me, but I still didn't see anything that blew me away (pictures and info). This deck, other than a few spots was chem cleaned and had a REAL oil applied. Sikkens is garbage in my experience. Sanding does not remove mold.


----------



## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Don't get me wrong there PP!

That's a HUGE deck in that video, & it looks fantastic after your work!

Yes...many decks DO need stripping and neutralizing. MY point has always been that you're STILL left with wood that's been degraded by sun & traffic...only CLEANER. The wood itself is still in the same PHYSICAL condition, which may not be very good!

Sanding removes all degraded material, leaving open, non-crushed wood fibers that will absorb and hold stain EVENLY....EVERYWHERE.
I recommend 60-grit for floors/steps, and 80-grit for furniture/seating.

If I hadn't seen how much difference sanding makes...on my very own deck...I wouldn't be so "abrasive" about it:whistling2:!!
<<< insert rim-shot here >>>

2 yrs. ago, I sanded-down (80-grit) a 20y/o cedar bench my FIL made. 
2 coats of Sikkens DEK-Finish (on ALL sides) and it still looks sweet!

Faron


----------



## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

DonP said:


> I kind of admire his resolve to get the job done with the tools on hand. I had a few electric washers back in the day. They fit in the car trunk that I was painting out of! Times have changed, I like my van and pro quality tools now, but I'm not so quick to judge a guy for working with what he has. That being said, it's damn near impossible to do a good deck wash with a low power machine. For what you've spent in chemicals you could have rented a decent washer for the day. Also, I think bleach works just about as well.


I'm all about working with the tools you have available to you, but in my area I have plenty of pro-grade pressure washers readily available! They run anywhere from $50-$75/day at the local rental shops. I totally understand not wanting to spend the money on a rental, but in my experience having the correct tools for the job more than pays for itself in labor savings and the overall quality of the finished products. Just my .02...


----------



## Nate'sGreatPaint (Aug 11, 2012)

Faron79 said:


> No-no-no.....
> 
> DON'T use a belt-sander!!
> Rent a 12"x18" vibrating flat-plate sander. Also, buy a few 60-grit sanding sheets, and some backer-pads to cushion the paper.
> ...




Just curious why you say to avoid a belt sander? I've use them in the past on decks, followed up with hand sanding to feather everything together. I was very happy with the results


----------



## Nate'sGreatPaint (Aug 11, 2012)

And some useful advice for the OP... There is only one Behr product I like, and that is their "premium 2 in 1 wood prep #63" It is very aggressive on the darkest of surfaces. Dont breath it. Also used an Olympic product that was pretty darn aggressive(strong bleach essentially) I personally would give it a day to air out, and go at it with a more aggressive product CAREFULLY, and work in full board lengths keeping a consistent distance and angle with your wand. This should take up the rest of the darkening, you may need two treatments to get everything nice even, minimizing your washer marks. 

I've found myself in this spot a few times, and it's always the same thing... Certain projects just won't clean up with certain products. It sucks but just stick it out and keep trying different techniques/chemcals till you're satisfied.


----------



## -ganja- (Aug 2, 2012)

i sand all decks getting a semi or a transparent finish. i use a floor sander with 36 grit to remove old finish and 80 then 100 grits to prep it for finishing....


----------



## AbsolutePainting (Feb 9, 2011)

MNpainter said:


> BM remove works great for me most of the time. However, the wood MUST be dry when you apply it. someone mentioned rewetting when you go to was it off, very important, btw turn the pressure up.
> hopes this helps. steve


I second this. Starting with a wet deck weakens the stripper?


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Nate'sGreatPaint said:


> Just curious why you say to avoid a belt sander? I've use them in the past on decks, followed up with hand sanding to feather everything together. I was very happy with the results


One reason I can see not to use a belt sander is that it heats the wood so much, it can make the surface hard and smooth and therefore less capable of absorbing product.
If product penetration is not what you are after, I don't see a prob with a belt sand. I've sanded a ton of decks and have seen over sanding lead to ' slick' or ' flashy' spots.


----------



## Craftworks (Apr 2, 2013)

I am surprised with your difficulty wood still looks good a 3000 psi power washer going slow will work but I always like it when i can gently clean wood with the products but if all else fails a 3000 psi will work.


----------



## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Have any of you ever used the Onfloor 16 machine? If the weather holds I'll be using it on a 1300 sq ft. deck next week. It's 6 years old PT in fair condition. I just stripped two layers of Cabot ATO off and neutralized. Now to get rid of the splinters and fuzzies. 

I planned on using an oscillating sander but decided on this machine to try it out. The Ben Moore store suggested using the diamond impregnated brushes. Because of the splintering (lot's of UV damage) they thought the sandpaper and pads would be torn up quickly. 

I've watched some videos on youtube...looks pretty doable.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

doctors11 said:


> Have any of you ever used the Onfloor 16 machine? If the weather holds I'll be using it on a 1300 sq ft. deck next week. It's 6 years old PT in fair condition. I just stripped two layers of Cabot ATO off and neutralized. Now to get rid of the splinters and fuzzies.
> 
> I planned on using an oscillating sander but decided on this machine to try it out. The Ben Moore store suggested using the diamond impregnated brushes. Because of the splintering (lot's of UV damage) they thought the sandpaper and pads would be torn up quickly.
> 
> I've watched some videos on youtube...looks pretty doable.


I would like to know how it works out.
I've been hesitant to use big sanders like that. It seems like the deck nails/screws would be a problem unless they were all set deeply. At best you would sand the protective coating off of any nail heads. At worst, shear them off or damage the machine. Also seems like the uneven profile of a deck would make it difficult. 
Let us know how it goes.


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I recommend the hook and loop pads and the 7" round sanding discs if the boards aren't too cupped. Counter sink nails. I never found the brushes to work too well on wood. They work better to scratch and epoxy floor for recoat. You may have to hand sand some areas but the compression pads work much better in my experience. No need to worry about swirls with either technique. The blades counter rotate. 





doctors11 said:


> Have any of you ever used the Onfloor 16 machine? If the weather holds I'll be using it on a 1300 sq ft. deck next week. It's 6 years old PT in fair condition. I just stripped two layers of Cabot ATO off and neutralized. Now to get rid of the splinters and fuzzies.
> 
> I planned on using an oscillating sander but decided on this machine to try it out. The Ben Moore store suggested using the diamond impregnated brushes. Because of the splintering (lot's of UV damage) they thought the sandpaper and pads would be torn up quickly.
> 
> I've watched some videos on youtube...looks pretty doable.


----------



## Joeb3rg (Feb 13, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> I think what is remaining may be mold. Sometimes you can do everything right and it just doesn't come clean. I tell people its a pressure wand, not a magic wand. It takes awhile to be able to look at wood and know the right chem mixes, when to sand, what product to stain with, etc. If you put your everything into this job, move onto staining with a full bodied oil like Armstrong Clark and it will most likely look fine.


Couple quarts of JOMAX ..gallon of bleach, into your fiver...rest with water. Soak , and I mean SOAK the surface. Let it soak in and do its magic for about 5 minutes. Pressure wash. Whatever is contaminating the surface should be gone ASAP.


----------



## Red Truck (Feb 10, 2013)

Your deck looks real nice sanded, Faron. I think most contractors here do not serve customers willing to pay for those kind of man hours though. With certain situations we try to sell sanding for clears and semi-transparent - but rarely do it.

This deck looked pretty bad to start with. It would make sense it was beat up worse than the siding. Looks like it could have used a good washing before cleaners and removers were used? I like Jomax and bleach too, along with a little simple green :thumbsup:


----------



## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Allright, just spent my first day with the Onfloor 16 today. The dealor suggested the diamond impregnated bristles so I got those, but I also got the sanding pads with 50 grit paper. The bristles worked like a dream to remove the fuzz and most of the splinters. It didn't do so well with the left over old stain, but it was the easiest thing I've ever used. It took about 2 hours to do 1300 sq feet of deck boards. No fighting with it, I literally could use one hand to guide it. The brushes hardly showed any sign of wear when done.

I then installed the pads and sandpaper. Different story. Not real bad, but definately more difficult to move around. It did remove the old stain but not on low areas next to higher boards. After about 2 minutes of sanding I hit a big splinter and it immediately ate two of the sanding discs. My fear was that I had ruined the pads but they were OK.

So I finished all the low spots with my 5 inch random orbit sander, vacummed and blew off everything and the deck literally looks bran new.

The customer is thrilled.

Next week I'll be renting it again but this time I'll use the gold diamond plates since I'll be removing multiple coats of old stain.

The plates won't clog with the old stain, and they won't get damaged if they hit a nail or screw, although I'll set them anyway.

The rental was expensive at $200 including the attachments, but the time saved, and saving wear and tear on my sanders and my body were worth it.

I would definately recommend it over an oscillating sander.:thumbup:


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

doctors11 said:


> Allright, just spent my first day with the Onfloor 16 today. The dealor suggested the diamond impregnated bristles so I got those, but I also got the sanding pads with 50 grit paper. The bristles worked like a dream to remove the fuzz and most of the splinters. It didn't do so well with the left over old stain, but it was the easiest thing I've ever used. It took about 2 hours to do 1300 sq feet of deck boards. No fighting with it, I literally could use one hand to guide it. The brushes hardly showed any sign of wear when done.
> 
> I then installed the pads and sandpaper. Different story. Not real bad, but definately more difficult to move around. It did remove the old stain but not on low areas next to higher boards. After about 2 minutes of sanding I hit a big splinter and it immediately ate two of the sanding discs. My fear was that I had ruined the pads but they were OK.
> 
> ...


Did the diamond bristles leave swirls to sand out? Do bristles compensate for un-even boards? 

Sounds like it worked pretty good


----------



## KD PAINTING (Nov 8, 2012)

Apply bleach, let it sit for few mins then powerwash it.. Good Luck!


----------

