# Avoiding lap marks on unsealed ceilings



## PicturePerfectWisco (Mar 29, 2019)

I work on a lot of cheaply built mass-constructed homes in NE Illinois. They are mostly in the 20 year old range, and the drywall (which was probably cheap Chinese drywall) was never sealed. I am having problems with lap marks on the large main area ceilings. I assume only a piss-coat of CHB was applied during construction and in a lot of cases was never painted again.

Before people comment on my technique or equipment used, I am very fast and use a 3/4" colossus roller and recently upgraded from 200 flat to SuperPaint flat. Lack of paint is not the problem. It doesn't matter what pattern I use, if I can't reach all the way from one side of the room to another on a single swipe, there will be lap marks. Even if I can reach across the room, the finish still isn't very even. Multiple coats seem to help the situation a bit, but even if 2-3 are applied there are still some lap marks. 

I am looking for advice on products, not technique. 

I am wondering if anyone has a solution for this? I have tried PVA and at the 20 year point of drying out, it doesn't make any more difference than a second coat of flat. I don't really want to use an oil. Plus, people are cheap and they can't afford an oil prime coat and then a finish coat. I also need to be able to do this in one day, I can't come back days later after a product has had a chance to cure and seal.

Would just applying another coat of CHB give an even finish? I am open to any suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

-Chris


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

One approach is to seal the ceiling before applying your flat. Zinsser Gardz works really well for this, and has a quick enough dry time to make one day finishing possible. Gardz is only about 22 a gallon (around here), it’s clear and gets good footage. After applying it, you have way more open time for your flat top coat. Something like
Zinsser 123 will seal the drywall pretty well also. 

Another approach is to spray only. If you can get your pattern even, a well sprayed coat of flat on a super porous ceiling can look great if you do it well. Not sure if you meant that your back rolling sprayed on material, or just dip rolling. Dip rolling on super porous drywall is really tough. If that’s what your doing, just seal it up first. 


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

The only issue with Gardz I have that it stinks quite bad.
I stopped using it in occupied residential.
Have two gallons sitting hoping to use it in non occupied.
Otherwise loved it's performance.
Having much hopes that this product will not stink as much, or very very little.
Will pick up gallon for testing next week.
https://www.painttalk.com/f2/opinions-corotech-clear-acrylic-sealer-v027-93463/#post1645113


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

PicturePerfectWisco said:


> I work on a lot of cheaply built mass-constructed homes in NE Illinois. They are mostly in the 20 year old range, and the drywall (which was probably cheap Chinese drywall) was never sealed. I am having problems with lap marks on the large main area ceilings. I assume only a piss-coat of CHB was applied during construction and in a lot of cases was never painted again.
> 
> Before people comment on my technique or equipment used, I am very fast and use a 3/4" colossus roller and recently upgraded from 200 flat to SuperPaint flat. Lack of paint is not the problem. It doesn't matter what pattern I use, if I can't reach all the way from one side of the room to another on a single swipe, there will be lap marks. Even if I can reach across the room, the finish still isn't very even. Multiple coats seem to help the situation a bit, but even if 2-3 are applied there are still some lap marks.
> 
> ...


Your best bet it to go with a cheap flat. They hide more. Sometimes better paints in the flat lines give off more sheen. Two paints that hide very well are 400 flat from sherwin and pro flat from Ppg is a dead flat. Usually the cheaper the flat the more dead it is in my opinion. 

I also know you don’t want to hear about technique, but you could mask everything and spray cross hatch your ceilings if rolling isn’t working. That could also help a lot. Two questions. Are the ceilings white? I assume they are since you have tried primer and is it a stomp knockdown type or smooth finish ceiling?


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm a long-time SW guy and I've never used CHB. ProMar 400 is the standard at SW for DEAD flat. Truth be told, they really don't have a good ceiling paint. Classic 99 from years ago was the best they had, but, it was replaced by the lackluster Emminence.

Everyone on here swears by BM's 508 Ceiling paint. I've always wanted to try it, but it's pricey for ceiling paint, but, may be the answer you are looking for.


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## STAR (Nov 26, 2010)

I use both sw pro mar 400 and BM 508. 

coverage.........BM
adhesion.........BM
price...............SW
application.......SW

You will get more Sq.ft coverage from BM. One thing I noticed is if your rolling for a few hours your roller will start drying out. Forget about washing it at the end of the day, it will be trash. This also happens with Ultra Spec 500 flat.

With SW make sure you use the original. The zero voc version has poor coverage.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

2 coats 508 with added extender. Will work everytime 

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Use an 18" roller. Or at least a 14" It makes a huge difference. Also, its possible you may be putting TOO much paint on. If it dries thicker, at can develop a bit of a sheen when you dont want it too. And, yes, you DONT want good quality flat, as it does have a bit of sheen. 

Also, you ARE rolling edge to edge in the direction of the direction of the roller, right? I've seen huge ceilings need to be retextured, because the painter rolled his section left to right, (about a third of the way accross) but instead of going that direction, he moved DOWN, and did the next section. Then, he went back up and did the middle part, then the left, so all the overlap was visible in two distinct lap mark lines from not keeping his wet edge. 

You arent doing something like that are you? cuz thats the only time I've ever seen issues like that other than using a finnicky Matte paint.


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

PicturePerfectWisco said:


> I work on a lot of cheaply built mass-constructed homes in NE Illinois. They are mostly in the 20 year old range, and the drywall (which was probably cheap Chinese drywall) was never sealed. I am having problems with lap marks on the large main area ceilings. I assume only a piss-coat of CHB was applied during construction and in a lot of cases was never painted again.
> 
> Before people comment on my technique or equipment used, I am very fast and use a 3/4" colossus roller and recently upgraded from 200 flat to SuperPaint flat. Lack of paint is not the problem. It doesn't matter what pattern I use, if I can't reach all the way from one side of the room to another on a single swipe, there will be lap marks. Even if I can reach across the room, the finish still isn't very even. Multiple coats seem to help the situation a bit, but even if 2-3 are applied there are still some lap marks.
> 
> ...


But oil might be your only solution if you like to have it done in one day.
One generous coat of low odor oil and leave it at that,no top coating with waterborne paint.
In many cases it works, but on large ceiling might not be good enough, you have to try it and see how it looks.
Also even tho it's low odor oil but it doe's have some of the oil smell. Might ask the store to add extra white tint into to it.

If you have to do two coats of waterborne, than doing coat of fast drying low odor oil and coat of waterborne is the same two coat process.
First coat of oil provides you with much better chances of one top coat waterborne to cover nicely. 
BM 508 yellow label is nice ceiling paint (some claim that is actually AURA) and might do the trick in one coat.
Just make sure the cutting is dry before you roll otherwise roller might pull the cut areas off. 
If one coat of BM-508 covers then it's worth the high price, if you have to do it two coats it might be overkill, unless second coat doe's outstanding job.
Only by trying you can tell if one coat low odor oil and one coat waterborne covers better than two coats of BM-508.
All the combinations can be done in one day. Need 3-4 hours in between coats assuming paint is drying fast.
Big air fans covering whole ceiling area will of course help with drying.

But try one good coat of low odor oil and see if it works, might not be super perfect but good enough considering budgets.

Good luck to you.
Let us know how it went.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

508 is a waste of money in my opinion. Just Prime it with a clear primer and then two coats of either 400 flat or masterhide flat if your are using sw. Ya it's a three coat system but that is what it sounds like you are already doing anyway. 


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> 508 is a waste of money in my opinion. Just Prime it with a clear primer and then two coats of either 400 flat or masterhide flat if your are using sw. Ya it's a three coat system but that is what it sounds like you are already doing anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why would anybody want to roll a ceiling 3 times, when they don't have too? Paint is thicker than blood.. I hate rolling ceilings.

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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

ceilings can be tough depending on lighting and drywall condition. Super hide flat white from benjamin moore is very flat and cheap as well as promar ceiling paint from sherwin.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Why would anybody want to roll a ceiling 3 times, when they don't have too? Paint is thicker than blood.. I hate rolling ceilings.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk




I do it for perfection. I'll treat ceilings just as important as walls. I've seen the way ceilings get painted by other painters. The only word that comes to mind is pathetic. Also super hide is a very good ceiling paint. We used it for years before we stopped bm. It is truly a dead flat. None of their other flats are true dead flats unless it is 508 but I've already stated my opinion on that.


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## RedDesertPainting (Nov 16, 2016)

SW Eminence ceiling paint! Great stuff I’ve been painting for 18years (not that it matters that much) an this paint is my exclusive ceiling paint now. We just finished repainting a large hotel, spraying and some brush an roll on ceilings with zero issues. 


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't get the thought process of; "that paint is to expensive".. Get your head outta your azz! THE CUSTOMER IS PAYING NOT YOU!


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

I would seal it then paint it. It was suggested to use Gardz however with Gardz going on clear I'd use Bin 123 or any drywall primer. This way it is almost 2 coated and all in one day.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Delta Painting said:


> I don't get the thought process of; "that paint is to expensive".. Get your head outta your azz! THE CUSTOMER IS PAYING NOT YOU!




I think 508 just plain sucks. I don't care if it was 15$ a gallon. I wouldn't use it


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I think 508 just plain sucks. I don't care if it was 15$ a gallon. I wouldn't use it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now your just being silly..

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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Honestly. I've used it a probably 8-10 times and was not happy with the results. I think it dries way too fast on the second coat and it leaves lap marks. I've used different covers all atleast 1/2" nap and i don't stretch my ceiling paint. 


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Honestly. I've used it a probably 8-10 times and was not happy with the results. I think it dries way too fast on the second coat and it leaves lap marks. I've used different covers all atleast 1/2" nap and i don't stretch my ceiling paint.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's really weird. I hate painting ceilings but I actually get excited when I get to use that stuff. Makes the day slightly more pleasant. I've never had it leave a bad finish.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> That's really weird. I hate painting ceilings but I actually get excited when I get to use that stuff. Makes the day slightly more pleasant. I've never had it leave a bad finish.




Yeah, I think that’s the first time I have heard anyone say they didn’t like the 508. Different strokes I guess. 


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Honestly. I've used it a probably 8-10 times and was not happy with the results. I think it dries way too fast on the second coat and it leaves lap marks. I've used different covers all atleast 1/2" nap and i don't stretch my ceiling paint.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, BM's 508 dries very fast and if I have to paint flat ceiling on a hot dry day I'm not excited about it at all.
If the temperature and humidity conditions are 'right' then yes 508 is nice to work with. It's a capricious product but does have very nice flat effect to it when everything goes right temp & air dryness related.
Also (especially on flat ceilings) if the cuts are not dry completely and you start rolling it 'lifts off' the cut areas.
Behaves same like Aura and I've heard from a store employee that actually it is Aura (but they are not allowed to say that to the customers for whatever reason). 
Remember when Aura was first introduced BM had official brochure giving tips on how to paint with it and one of the tips was to place pot of water on the stove and let it boil to introduce moisture into the air to help with applying Aura.
To bad I didn't saved any of those brochures. I'm sure it's a collection item now...


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Regardless of Paint brand I despise when anyone's "top of the line" paint comes with a 30 second medical warning like on tv commercials. It's supposed to be your top of the line product. I should be able to hold the paint brush with my foot and it should look great. I do remember those stickers they would put on the lids of aura. I thought that was just my retailer doing that. Glad it wasn't just me.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

Obviously, throwing on a good sealer might be something to consider, but having experience with Purdy and their Colossus line of roller covers, have you considered taking a pair of scissors and creating a slight bevel at the ends of the roller? 3/4 is a really heavy nap for a polyamide roller; they put out a ton of paint and tend to want to leave some texture. By creating a bit of bevel, or switching up your roller cover, you can probably reduce the lap marks. I LOVE polyamide covers, but for ceilings, I tend to stick with microfiber. I really like linzer's HD 9/16's cover in 18inches for ceilings. Pre wet it good, and it just flows. Just a thought since everyone else seems to be on board with sealing your ceiling.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*PPG for me*



finishesbykevyn said:


> Now your just being silly..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


I've done several ceilings with 508. Three of them were on skim-coated ceilings that I had sealed with 2 generous coats of Gardz. They came out beautiful, but I really struggled to spread the paint out with a roller. The 2nd coat was even more difficult to spread, almost like I hadn't sealed the surface with anything.

Rolling 508 over 123 was even more difficult for me. Even though Gardz is clear, I think it seals the surface better than pigmented sealers - when used as directed. Two coats of almost anything should work over Gardz. 

After seeing Chrisn (and others) always touting Pittsburgh Premium Ceiling Paint I gave this a try. Just as brilliant white as 508, very flat and very easy to spread the paint out. On top of that, the 2nd coat rolled out just as smooth as the first. My new go to ceiling paint. Thanks again, Chrisn!

futtyos


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

futtyos said:


> I've done several ceilings with 508. Three of them were on skim-coated ceilings that I had sealed with 2 generous coats of Gardz. They came out beautiful, but I really struggled to spread the paint out with a roller. The 2nd coat was even more difficult to spread, almost like I hadn't sealed the surface with anything.
> 
> Rolling 508 over 123 was even more difficult for me. Even though Gardz is clear, I think it seals the surface better than pigmented sealers - when used as directed. Two coats of almost anything should work over Gardz.
> 
> ...


futtyos, looks like I found replacement to GARDZ. (it has at least 3 to 4 times -maybe even more- less of that strong smell/stink that Gardz has).
Sands on MDF baseboard, on plywood and on drywall very nicely, super smooth, not like on the gummy side as Gardz sands. 
Check this thread out, if you are interested:

*OPINIONS on Corotech® Clear Acrylic Sealer V027*
https://www.painttalk.com/f2/opinions-corotech-clear-acrylic-sealer-v027-93463/#post1646043


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

EveryDay said:


> futtyos, looks like I found replacement to GARDZ. (it has at least 3 to 4 times -maybe even more- less of that strong smell/stink that Gardz has).
> Sands on MDF baseboard, on plywood and on drywall very nicely, super smooth, not like on the gummy side as Gardz sands.
> Check this thread out, if you are interested:
> 
> ...


Dude... You're gonna screw his brain up...


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

Woodco said:


> Dude... You're gonna screw his brain up...


LOL.
You are funny... hahaha


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

futtyos said:


> I've done several ceilings with 508. Three of them were on skim-coated ceilings that I had sealed with 2 generous coats of Gardz. They came out beautiful, but I really struggled to spread the paint out with a roller. The 2nd coat was even more difficult to spread, almost like I hadn't sealed the surface with anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My only beef with 508 is that its $50/gal. However I just rolled a huge open concept ceiling with it by myself. I added a splash of extender. But honestly even if that stuff starts dying up on you, there are very little to no lap marks. It also has a really good chance of coveing in 1 coat compared to other paints.
Ceiling paints always dry fast anyhow. I use a 20mm sleeve.

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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*brain*



Woodco said:


> Dude... You're gonna screw his brain up...


:lol:

foolbeose


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*PPG Premium*



finishesbykevyn said:


> My only beef with 508 is that its $50/gal. However I just rolled a huge open concept ceiling with it by myself. I added a splash of extender. But honestly even if that stuff starts dying up on you, there are very little to no lap marks. It also has a really good chance of coveing in 1 coat compared to other paints.
> Ceiling paints always dry fast anyhow. I use a 20mm sleeve.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Try the PPG Premium Ceiling Paint some time. If you want to have some fun (my kind of fun at any rate) try sealing a ceiling with Gardz (or Corothane VO27 if EveryDay is right about that) first, then experience what every painting job must be like in heaven. No matter how much extender you put into paint, if the surface is porous, the water in the paint will get sucked up into the surface you are painting, causing any roller lines or irregular patterns to lock themselves into the surface before you can smooth them out. When the surface is sealed, the water in the paint stays in the paint and evaporates more slowly out into the room.

When I have rolled 508 over Gardz, the 1st coat goes on like a charm, but the 2nd coat goes on as if I had not sealed the surface. I painted the PPG Premium over a 123 sealed ceiling and both coats went on like a dream.

futtyos


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

How many people here actually do only 1 coat (brush and roll and same color) on ceilings and think they look good? I don't understand the concept of one and done on a ceiling. 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

jr.sr. painting said:


> How many people here actually do only 1 coat (brush and roll and same color) on ceilings and think they look good? I don't understand the concept of one and done on a ceiling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Well, it depends on the application I think. While it is more difficult to apply a full coat by hand than if spraying, it’s not impossible. 
There are plenty of coatings out there that will make a ceiling look great in one coat provided it’s applied to spec. 

Practically speaking it’s often more reasonable to just do two applications to get the required film build. 



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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jr.sr. painting said:


> How many people here actually do only 1 coat (brush and roll and same color) on ceilings and think they look good? I don't understand the concept of one and done on a ceiling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do all the time. What's wrong with 1 coat same colour on a ceiling.? If it looks solid, what's the point in another coat on a repaint? Your way too sentimental about your ceilings.

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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I just like the ceilings perfect and to achieve that I think they need two coats


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