# Gardz for NC?



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I got a small new house to do in a couple weeks and was thinking about using Gardz to seal the rock. It will all be smooth finish except for the great room which will be knockdown. 

I haven't used Gardz on new rock except for a few small scale patch jobs. Wondering if anyone has used it for a whole house, or what you think of the idea. 

I know it seals great, that's why I'm considering it. How would it do with sanding as far as hiding fuzzed paper around the joints? 

The lack of opacity might be a drawback, but with spray and back roll I still think I could get away with one finish coat on the ceilings and two on walls. 

How is it to spray? Seems like it might fog pretty badly being so thin. Assuming I would need to back roll the Gardz too.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

II wonder why though, to paint new rock?
I wouldn't. But if u didn't notice what was his name? Jack Paul? Yeh. That was one of his, you know, he proponotized it big time. Backlog his posts. Cause he's got the videos and testimonies and all that jazz. 

We do from time to time coat big areas with the stuff, for to wallpaper, hotels mostly. Anyway. When used in bulk and fast the smell IMO is the worst of anything I have ever used. And this is saying something, it is a overpowering filthy smell that stuff. Bad.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I know Zinsser would love you for it! But it will give an excellent holdout for your topcoat.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Oden said:


> II wonder why though, to paint new rock?
> I wouldn't. But if u didn't notice what was his name? Jack Paul? Yeh. That was one of his, you know, he proponotized it big time. Backlog his posts. Cause he's got the videos and testimonies and all that jazz.
> 
> We do from time to time coat big areas with the stuff, for to wallpaper, hotels mostly. Anyway. When used in bulk and fast the smell IMO is the worst of anything I have ever used. And this is saying something, it is a overpowering filthy smell that stuff. Bad.


Is that a real word?


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Just the odor would keep me from using it unless necessary. Why not a regular primer/sealer?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I've used it on a few NC jobs. It's great for walls with critical lighting. It does smell pretty strong, but the holdout, as mentioned, is amazing.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

You said spray so I'll give my 2 cents, since we don't roll much.

Look into the hi-build from sherwin. You really want a high build primer. I always use it unless it's for patches. Especially if your talking about minor defects or paper fuzz.

You can put it on fairly thick, will probably run you less than guardz. And it'll seal the mud and rock without a problem.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

There was a thread here in the last five months or so where Gardz got the vote from more than one member for this very situation. Discussion went something like, if it were your home and you could use any product to seal rock, what would give best results. And yes, clear finish was a drawback for some, so white Drawtite was offered as even better but hard to locate locally.

If the stink of Gardz is so awful, all the other manufactures make a product that is specced for like applications:

Kilz Klear
Roman Rx-35
SW Drywall Conditioner
XIM Repairz


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Oden said:


> II wonder why though, to paint new rock?
> I wouldn't. But if u didn't notice what was his name? Jack Paul? Yeh. That was one of his, you know, he proponotized it big time. Backlog his posts. Cause he's got the videos and testimonies and all that jazz.





PACman said:


> Is that a real word?


Sure! As a *proponent* of Gardz, he *promoted* and *monetized* the product.

PROPONOTIZED!!!


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PRC said:


> Just the odor would keep me from using it unless necessary. Why not a regular primer/sealer?



I'm not aware of one that seals as well as Gardz. I usually use 123 and it works fine, just like to change it up every now and then and I really like the sheen hold out of Gardz, and how it hardens the drywall. 

Not too worried about the smell as I would use respirators and ventilate well. 

Also thinking it might be a bit more cost effective than 123 because of increased spread rate. Provided I didn't loose more to overspray because of the low viscosity.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Oden said:


> II wonder why though, to paint new rock?
> I wouldn't. But if u didn't notice what was his name? Jack Paul? Yeh. That was one of his, you know, he proponotized it big time. Backlog his posts. Cause he's got the videos and testimonies and all that jazz.
> 
> We do from time to time coat big areas with the stuff, for to wallpaper, hotels mostly. Anyway. When used in bulk and fast the smell IMO is the worst of anything I have ever used. And this is saying something, it is a overpowering filthy smell that stuff. Bad.



I remember a couple of those threads. The "B" test in particular, and the 23 primer test. 

I had forgot about the Kilz clear, might look into that. ReNt likes it a lot.


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

Ive never used gardz but I use USG first coat quite a bit and Murco hi coat once in awhile. First coat works well at hiding the fuzz and telegraphing paper tape lines and the like. Murco does too but not as thick. Around here I get first coat for a little more than pva.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Throw some 123 into the Gardz , just enough to give it some color to see what you are spraying.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I think you can add 2 oz of tint to guard.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I don't understand why you wouldn't want start building color and sheen with your primer? It seems like the answer to the question would be "sure", I'm just not following what the potential advantage would be...?


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## whodog94 (Aug 10, 2012)

Just paint it. 3 coats maybe


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Bonding and sealing are Gardz strongest attributes. This why it's one of the best drywall primers. Painting a coat on top of Gardz is weird because it doesn't soak in like most drywall primers and the dry time is much longer because of this.

Last year I painted a NC house where the drywaller primed the house with some ****ty Hamilton PVA primer. The primer didn't seal the rock at all and both coats of paint I applied sucked into it like a sponge. Because the sheen did't build the punch list touch ups became glossy spots. Any walls where touchups were made needed to be completely repainted. 

I learned an expensive lesson that not all drywall primers are good at sealing the drywall.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

chrisn said:


> Throw some 123 into the Gardz , just enough to give it some color to see what you are spraying.



I though about that, even thought about mixing a gallon of Gardz in a five of 123 . 

Not a good idea I'm sure, but it's tempting to try. If 123 would seal just a little better and maybe sand a little better, it would be perfect. Maybe I'll try it in one room.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I though about that, even thought about mixing a gallon of Gardz in a five of 123 .
> 
> Not a good idea I'm sure, but it's tempting to try. If 123 would seal just a little better and maybe sand a little better, it would be perfect. Maybe I'll try it in one room.


Do you mean like it used to? Before they cheapened it for the box stores? Because that's kinda what I think of it, having been selling it for 30+ years. It is no where near as good as it was even 10 years ago.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PNW Painter said:


> Bonding and sealing are Gardz strongest attributes. This why it's one of the best drywall primers. Painting a coat on top of Gardz is weird because it doesn't soak in like most drywall primers and the dry time is much longer because of this.
> 
> Last year I painted a NC house where the drywaller primed the house with some ****ty Hamilton PVA primer. The primer didn't seal the rock at all and both coats of paint I applied sucked into it like a sponge. Because the sheen did't build the punch list touch ups became glossy spots. Any walls where touchups were made needed to be completely repainted.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'm over drywall primers that "seal" by creating uniform porosity. Painting over Gardz is so nice. It lets the paint perform to its fullest potential without having the life sucked out of it by a some chalky primer.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

whodog94 said:


> Just paint it. 3 coats maybe
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That can work well too. A good coat of self priming satin or higher sheen paint seals the rock better than most primers. I don't like to do it with flat though, that's not much different than a regular drywall primer.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

My only gripe with Gardz is the dry time of 3hours.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> Do you mean like it used to? Before they cheapened it for the box stores? Because that's kinda what I think of it, having been selling it for 30+ years. It is no where near as good as it was even 10 years ago.


So give us a recommendation on a product that is widely available and performs like the 123 of 15 years ago.

Even if it's twice as much per gallon, many folks here will try it out.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I was just looking at the BM Sure Seal in the paint store a few mins ago. I haven't tried it yet but it's supposed to comparable to 123 and at about the same price.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Interesting, I've only been painting for 12yrs now and 123 is basically the only primer I use unless I need oil or shellac for some reason. I had no idea they'd changed it around in the past 10-15yrs. Not surprising, just wasn't aware of the change.

What's different about it now as opposed to then?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yeah, I'm over drywall primers that "seal" by creating uniform porosity. Painting over Gardz is so nice. It lets the paint perform to its fullest potential without having the life sucked out of it by a some chalky primer.


Most drywall primers on the market, and pva primers in particular are crap. Just a cheap add on sale.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> So give us a recommendation on a product that is widely available and performs like the 123 of 15 years ago.
> 
> Even if it's twice as much per gallon, many folks here will try it out.


Hmmm. Do you really want MY opinion on this? 

For something readily available across the country? Not much. Not anything you can buy outside of an independently owned store. But going by my biases, Insul-x Aqua lock would be one. Pratt & Lambert's Multi-purpose water based primer is good. The cats meow would be California's Multi purpose acrylic primer. But I sell those products, except for Aqua lock, so don't take MY word for it. Just keep buying the 123 and believing what the people selling it say about it!

Everyone is going to push the product they sell, whether they fib about it's quality or even know about it's quality is the question.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Interesting, I've only been painting for 12yrs now and 123 is basically the only primer I use unless I need oil or shellac for some reason. I had no idea they'd changed it around in the past 10-15yrs. Not surprising, just wasn't aware of the change.
> 
> What's different about it now as opposed to then?


It isn't as heavily pigmented for one thing. But most obvious to me is the lowering of the resin content and the use of a cheaper resin to begin with. It doesn't get as hard as fast as it used to, and it doesn't sand anywhere as well as it used to. It also doesn't have quite the hold-out quality that it did. Most glaringly it doesn't adhere even in the same universe that it once did. I did adhesion tests on it and 12 other primers for a big melamine cabinet repaint job for a customer back about 2002 or so. It was the best of all of them.Now it really sucks as an adhesive primer. If you don't compare it to anything else you would never know the difference though!


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Interesting. I tested it on a melamine cabinet last year and it didn't bond at all. 

Anyway, it's still one of the better opaque drywall primers I've tried.beats the heck out of drywall specific primers. Unless of course you like painting over a porous primer, some people do.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> Bonding and sealing are Gardz strongest attributes. This why it's one of the best drywall primers. Painting a coat on top of Gardz is weird because it doesn't soak in like most drywall primers and the dry time is much longer because of this.
> 
> Last year I painted a NC house where the drywaller primed the house with some ****ty Hamilton PVA primer. The primer didn't seal the rock at all and both coats of paint I applied sucked into it like a sponge. Because the sheen did't build the punch list touch ups became glossy spots. Any walls where touchups were made needed to be completely repainted.
> 
> ...


I have no use for pva. For that very reason. It's pointless. Great for drywallers, but does absolutely nothing for us. I always start with 123 or problock. Kilz 2 works. But there are better products at the same price point....ime anyway. Always bid for prime and 2 coats. If I'm forced to use their "priming" as a base coat, I bid for 2 coats.no other trades in project areas during production and bill punch out at t&m +20%. The punch is always full walls so we make out pretty well there...gotta plan for it though.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I though about that, even thought about mixing a gallon of Gardz in a five of 123 .
> 
> Not a good idea I'm sure, but it's tempting to try. If 123 would seal just a little better and maybe sand a little better, it would be perfect. Maybe I'll try it in one room.


Why are you sanding it other than pole sanding between coats? I don't get it...


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> I have no use for pva. For that very reason. It's pointless. Great for drywallers, but does absolutely nothing for us. I always start with 123 or problock. Kilz 2 works. But there are better products at the same price point....ime anyway. Always bid for prime and 2 coats. If I'm forced to use their "priming" as a base coat, I bid for 2 coats.no other trades in project areas during production and bill punch out at t&m +20%. The punch is always full walls so we make out pretty well there...gotta plan for it though.



Sounds like you've got an excellent system. This a little off topic, but I'm curious if your estimates include any time for punch list items or is it all T&M?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> Why are you sanding it other than pole sanding between coats? I don't get it...



Pole sanding is what I meant. It's not always an issue depending on the quality of the Sheetrock job. Catch one where the paper is heavily damaged (fuzzed) and sand ability is more important.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Been using Gardz on raw rock that drywallers when they mechanical sanded fussed up every square inch of face paper and condition of rock before hand felt like you were petting a dog.It was that bad.Sealed it up with Gardz and lightly sanded smooth.Sealed the deal.:thumbsup:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PACman said:


> Most drywall primers on the market, and pva primers in particular are crap. Just a cheap add on sale.


Agree dealing with this dilemma now.Working on a three story new home with critical lighting with alot of big windows throughout and before I arrived two stories of the drywall has already been primed with a pva primer and to make matters worse it was double primed no sanding and top floor already had been topcoated with 2 topcoats of finish paint.Very very rough on smooth drywall.Its been a nightmare but thats another"story".No pun intended. Lots of roughness and flashing throughout.Top it all off they have used satin paint as their choice for both walls and ceilings.Shine on!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Fellow painters be on your Gardz!:whistling2:


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## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

I tried out Dulux Xpert waterborne alkyd primer a few months ago on a house which was half new drywall and half plaster walls that had been mostly cleaned of nicotine and body grease. I really liked it. It was great on the drywall, didn't make the bare patches furry, everything was smooth. And it stuck great to the rest of the place. The ceilings were all drywall and I got away with one coat of ceiling paint after the primer. Great adhesion, great hide.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

mudbone said:


> Been using Gardz on raw rock that drywallers when they mechanical sanded fussed up every square inch of face paper and condition of rock before hand felt like you were petting a dog.It was that bad.Sealed it up with Gardz and lightly sanded smooth.Sealed the deal.:thumbsup:



Thanks, that what I was wondering. Going by how well Gardz does on damaged paper during patch jobs, it's not surprising it would work well for that also. Seems like I run into "dog hair" drywall about every other time. This last job was terrible.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PNW- We punch out from paint before we leave so we are 100% on all walls/lids etc....generally speaking. On bigger jobs,there might be a time allowance to include base or something standard that has not been installed. But once they let other trades back in, the responsibility is on them for trade damage t&m. That all gets worked out prior to starting....


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

mudbone said:


> Agree dealing with this dilemma now.Working on a three story new home with critical lighting with alot of big windows throughout and before I arrived two stories of the drywall has already been primed with a pva primer and to make matters worse it was double primed no sanding and top floor already had been topcoated with 2 topcoats of finish paint.Very very rough on smooth drywall.Its been a nightmare but thats another"story".No pun intended. Lots of roughness and flashing throughout.Top it all off they have used satin paint as their choice for both walls and ceilings.Shine on!


wow, what a nightmare



AND a whole papagraph


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Did Mudbone really say "no pun intended" ? Lol


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

matt19422 said:


> *My only gripe with Gardz is the dry time of 3hours.*


Good point!

You are right about 3 hours being an eternity these days. Here are the TDS guidelines of some other options:

*Kilz Klear*--Recoat in 1 hour.

*Roman Rx-35*--Ready to hang over in 3 hours.

*Scotch Drawtite*--4 hours.

*SW Drywall Conditioner*--3 hours for all applications.

*XIM Repairz*--Topcoated in 1 hour, apply wallcovering in 3-4 hours.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Pole sanding is what I meant. It's not always an issue depending on the quality of the Sheetrock job. Catch one where the paper is heavily damaged (fuzzed) and sand ability is more important.


But if you can see the issues before priming wouldn't they be repaired first, then prime? What am I missing here? I guess I just don't like the idea because it seems like it would end up being more work than it needs to be....eh- to each their own I suppose..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> But if you can see the issues before priming wouldn't they be repaired first, then prime? What am I missing here? I guess I just don't like the idea because it seems like it would end up being more work than it needs to be....eh- to each their own I suppose..


It is definitely quicker to apply a sealer over the raised drywall, followed with a light sanding, then to float it out again.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> It is definitely quicker to apply a sealer over the raised drywall, followed with a light sanding, then to float it out again.



Yeah, it's not usually part of my scope of work to repair damaged paper on lvl 4 drywall by skimming. Some fuzzing of the paper is to be expected with all but the very best drywallers (who are few and far between). In some cases, a couple coats of paint, lightly sanded between, will take care of it. In other cases, it's not so easy. 

Just to be clear, by "damage" I just mean over sanded paper around the mudded areas. As mudbone mentioned, mechanical sanding can exacerbate the problem tremendously if the person doing the sanding is inexperienced, or less than competent at the operation of the machine. 

It's kind of a trade off. I very much appreciate drywallers who sand dustless, but a Planex or PC in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. 

In extreme cases, I'll use the PC wall sander after priming instead of pole sanding.


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## papernpaste (Dec 10, 2009)

I've used Gardz as my pre-paint primer for years. All prep has to be done BEFORE the Gardz is applied because you it won't allow medium-heavy sanding of any kind, once it is on the wall...says so on the label. As far as the drywall surface fuz from over sanding, Gardz dries, seals, and encapsulates everything on the surface so that fuz will be stiff fuz once the Gardz cures. The fuz can be light sanded to knock 'em down...just lightly.
Because Gardz cures to an eggshell luster, I have to two-coat finish paint over Gardz but, if the finish paint is one-coat it may be just fine with one coat. My experience is that a micro-fiber roller cover is almost a must when applying the Gardz. Regular roller covers will drip and splatter the stuff all over the place. Wipe things off and clean your equipment quickly with strong soapy water, too. When that stuff cures, it bonds, big-time....that's what i like about it. wipe your shoes off, too.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> My only gripe with Gardz is the dry time of 3hours.


No worse then having to wait 4 hours recoat time with SW paints.Drives me crazy.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

papernpaste said:


> I've used Gardz as my pre-paint primer for years. All prep has to be done BEFORE the Gardz is applied because you it won't allow medium-heavy sanding of any kind, once it is on the wall...says so on the label. As far as the drywall surface fuz from over sanding, Gardz dries, seals, and encapsulates everything on the surface so that fuz will be stiff fuz once the Gardz cures. The fuz can be light sanded to knock 'em down...just lightly.
> Because Gardz cures to an eggshell luster, I have to two-coat finish paint over Gardz but, if the finish paint is one-coat it may be just fine with one coat. My experience is that a micro-fiber roller cover is almost a must when applying the Gardz. Regular roller covers will drip and splatter the stuff all over the place. Wipe things off and clean your equipment quickly with strong soapy water, too. When that stuff cures, it bonds, big-time....that's what i like about it. wipe your shoes off, too.


Spot on!:thumbsup:


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