# What percentage do you pay your subs?



## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

Those of you who sub out jobs to other painting contractors... 

How do you determine their percentage of the total contract?

For example: You have an exterior painting contract with a HO for 10k, and are going to sub the job to another contractor. They will provide all equipment, paint & materials. 

How will you split the 10k?


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## propaintersatlanta (Nov 27, 2010)

Buy the materials then split it in half

If it 2,500 in materials. 
Contractor and sub split 7,500

$3750 & $3750

Adjust to fit the situation

Everyones method is different


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

propaintersatlanta said:


> Buy the materials then split it in half
> 
> If it 2,500 in materials.
> Contractor and sub split 7,500
> ...


They buy the material then split 50 / 50.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

Those are some cheap a$$ subs... 

I would only sub something I can't handle or don't have the time for. I would also only sub it to someone I trusted as my reputation is important. I would not want to sub it so cheap that the job would be rushed and it would look crappy- so I would probably pay for the materials and give them 75% of the labour portion. So I would get 25% of labour plus mark up on materials.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Dunbar Painting said:


> *Those are some cheap a$$ subs*...
> 
> I would only sub something I can't handle or don't have the time for. I would also only sub it to someone I trusted as my reputation is important. I would not want to sub it so cheap that the job would be rushed and it would look crappy- so I would probably pay for the materials and give them 75% of the labour portion. So I would get 25% of labour plus mark up on materials.


I agree that it is a great value (cheap). But they do good, quality work and keep the client satisfied. They are happy because I provide them with work. I am happy because they make our clients happy. Now, if they come in under hours they get rewarded for that as well (big bonus).


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

For crying out loud...you're subbing the job...and hopefully, the guys you sub to are getting enough money to do the job properly. Because if not, they'll be your competition and you'll get zero part of the jobs you lose.

I see a lot of info in regards to subs but most of it is a pipe dream.

Use your head...if the sub is doing all the work, then take a few points of profit (more points if you can bid and win the job with the extra money tacked on).

if you argue that it's not worth it to have your name on a job for a small amount of money...then find someone reputable who will act as you would...or don't sub.

There is only so much money to go around, period. I get a kick out of the guys who claim in one sentence that they are bidding tight...then in the next sentence are trying to make 5k on a 10k job by subbing it.

It's all good on paper but as I said...don't bitch about low priced workers then try to use them to your advantage...you'll create a vicious circle.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks Harry, all the conversations we have about subs here and I still don't get it!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> For crying out loud...you're subbing the job...and hopefully, the guys you sub to are getting enough money to do the job properly. Because if not, they'll be your competition and you'll get zero part of the jobs you lose.
> 
> I see a lot of info in regards to subs but most of it is a pipe dream.
> 
> ...


b

i

n

g

o


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

KLaw said:


> I agree that it is a great value (cheap). But they do good, quality work and keep the client satisfied. They are happy because I provide them with work. I am happy because they make our clients happy. Now, if they come in under hours they get rewarded for that as well (big bonus).


Ummmm,WTF:blink: Why are you tracking a subs hours and paying bonuses?
If you have an agreed upon price.That is the price! If they finish in 2 days or 10 days that's up to them and that's their bonus. Me smells something fishy here :detective:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> Ummmm,WTF:blink: Why are you tracking a subs hours and paying bonuses?
> If you have an agreed upon price.That is the price! If they finish in 2 days or 10 days that's up to them and that's their bonus. Me smells something fishy here :detective:


Hey Bro - I don't roll that way. The subs I used to use are folks that I trust and do great work. Nothing is ever in "concrete". IOW's we take care of each other. There are times when they get a great bonus because of their performance. There are other times where they may make less per hour then what was projected. Either way - both parties are happy at the end of the day.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> Ummmm,WTF:blink: Why are you tracking a subs hours and paying bonuses?
> If you have an agreed upon price.That is the price! If they finish in 2 days or 10 days that's up to them and that's their bonus. Me smells something fishy here :detective:


I'm smelling it to and I wasn't even loged in :huh:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Hey Bro - I don't roll that way. The subs I used to use are folks that I trust and do great work. Nothing is ever in "concrete". IOW's we take care of each other. There are times when they get a great bonus because of their performance. There are other times where they may make less per hour then what was projected. Either way - both parties are happy at the end of the day.


Um,subbing by the hour? That's not legal!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Um,subbing by the hour? That's not legal!


Gabe and Aaron

Obviously, you guys arent entrepeneurs who think outside the box. :jester:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

LOL, here we go again!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

RCP said:


> LOL, here we go again!


My thoughts exactly.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> Um,subbing by the hour? That's not legal!


Not subbing by the hour. But give the estimate based on projected hours. If we perform great all is rewarded. If we perform poorly we all suffer a lil bit. Perfectly legsl - if done right.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Palm to forehead!!!!!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Palm to forehead!!!!!


Relax - dude

The cat knows how to do it right. No more giving lunch money to home office, someone is now positioned to make BANK!!!!


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

For me, it depends on the job. I sub small jobs to an ex-employee that worked with me for about four years, so he knows what I expect quality wise.

He's on an $850 job right now. He gets $400, I get the rest and pay for materials. It's about a twelve hour job.

However, he just finished a $1650 job of which he got $900 and I also covered materials. 

When I cover materials, it's paint and primer only.

Another is a 4k job of which he gets 2k and I cover materials.

I always cover materials. If the sub needs brushes, rollers, etc... They can use my account, but get it deducted from the final pay.

Like I said, it depends on the job. He did a small porch floor for $450 and got $200, an interior of a garage for $450 and got $250, etc...

I want the subs to make money, so I'll do what I think is fair, considering the expertise needed in each job.

A simple paint job will yield them less of a cut than a job with multiple color changes, extensive plaster repair, far travel, etc...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> For me, it depends on the job. I sub small jobs to an ex-employee that worked with me for about four years, so he knows what I expect quality wise.
> 
> He's on an $850 job right now. He gets $400, I get the rest and pay for materials. It's about a twelve hour job.
> 
> ...


Never mind the hidden numbers...what is the bottom line...the end result?
What percentage of the profit did you give up?


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

I actually gave up zero profit because these are all time restricted jobs that I would not have been able to get done otherwise.

So rather than tell the customer, sorry, I can't meet your deadline, I sub it out and still bring home the bacon.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I would just ask the sub to give me a bid with out telling him my numbers. I would explain the scope and the type of quality that was expected. If his numbers come back lower then mine then we can do business. If not then I'm stuck doing it myself. I have never done this or ever subbed anything before, but it I were, this is how I would do it.

Pat


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

So you would ask him to bid off of your explanation rather than seeing the job?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

One Coat Coverage said:


> So you would ask him to bid off of your explanation rather than seeing the job?


No, I would have him look at the job. I would explain to him what needs to be done.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Do you guys that use subs tell your customers that you are hiring a outside company to do the work for you?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Do you guys that use subs tell your customers that you are hiring a outside company to do the work for you?


I have referred several jobs to a friend before. I do inform the customer and have a meeting prior to starting the job so I can introduce them and stuff. I only do this when I just can't do it and my friend is available. I don't make anything off of it, just helping out a friend and he helps me by getting the job done.

Pat


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Do you guys that use subs tell your customers that you are hiring a outside company to do the work for you?


Exactly! 

Real subs are just that, *sub*contractors.
What is described here is not. Nobody can run a business at $20 an hour.
So, you are lying to your customers and playing stupid with your subs.

So easy for us now:

Mrs Smith, if you hire Ecopainting we think you should get Ecopainting.
If you wanted to hire Joe Blow, you would have called Joe Blow.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> I have referred several jobs to a friend before. I do inform the customer and have a meeting prior to starting the job so I can introduce them and stuff. I only do this when I just can't do it and my friend is available. I don't make anything off of it, just helping out a friend and he helps me by getting the job done.
> 
> Pat


Pat - I am positive that what you are doing on occasion and what others do for a business structure are two totally diffent types of subbing.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Yep, I could never sub something out looking for a extra buck or two. I'm just to paranoid. I have known my friend for over 20 years. He is licensed and does top notch work.

I think it could work, you just have to know the sub real good and how he does things. 

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

George Z said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Real subs are just that, *sub*contractors.
> What is described here is not. Nobody can run a business at $20 an hour.
> ...


 
But George, just think of all the money would could be making.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

And you could invest it in sales, and make even more money. Until things go south and word gets out that the customer could have hit craigslist and gotten the same guys to paint their house.

I can name at least four franchise painting companies that have done just that in my area. Big money spent on advertising, and an army of hungry former Kirby salesmen.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This is one of the funny things about this business. It is so easy to set up a company and never really take full ownership of a job. Perhap this is a contributing factor on why the failure rate is so high.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> This is one of the funny things about this business. It is so easy to set up a company and never really take full ownership of a job. Perhap this is a contributing factor on why the failure rate is so high.


Did kev fail the franchise or did the franchise fail kev?

I ask this only from a failure analysis standpoint.


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

RE: using subs. 

I only sub out to one person: a former employee who ran a crew for me for 15 years. He has been a licensed contractor on his own now for equally as long. He’s kinda slow now, and I’m extra busy. When he does a job for me, he and his crew are all in my logoed shirts, with a plain white van. Job quality, image, etc, are totally transparent between them and my other (employee) crews. My interaction with the HO is the same as all my jobs - daily.

I’m just trying to get a consensus of how others are diving up the pot with their subs - _without getting into the pros and cons of using subs. _

Thanks!


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

LA Painter said:


> RE: using subs.
> 
> I only sub out to one person: a former employee who ran a crew for me for 15 years. He has been a licensed contractor on his own now for equally as long. He’s kinda slow now, and I’m extra busy. When he does a job for me, he and his crew are all in my logoed shirts, with a plain white van. Job quality, image, etc, are totally transparent between them and my other (employee) crews. My interaction with the HO is the same as all my jobs - daily.
> 
> ...


Just ask him how much he would charge. This is not that different then when I refer work to my friend. Real similar situation. Or say your price to the owner was $7500, ask your friend to look at and see if he could pull it off for $6000 and still do the quality that you are used to. 

I really think there is no way for there to be a fixed percentage on something like this as all jobs are different. I would tackle one job at a time. 

Pat


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

There is a definite difference in building a business model through getting jobs and subbing them, or just subbing the occasional job you do not have time for. In the former, you have more overhead related to the subbing and thus must take more from your sub, in the latter you are likely already working at other profitable jobs, and are more concerned with the quality of the sub, and the reputation of yours he/she will enhance: so you are willing to sub it for less. I don't think one can really perform both of these subbing mentalities at the same time. The only occasion I would sub is in the latter category, and I would be willing to pay my sub anything up to what my bid was + the time I spent orchestrating all this + any overhead it cost me.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Dunbar Painting said:


> There is a definite difference in building a business model through getting jobs and subbing them, or just subbing the occasional job you do not have time for. In the former, you have more overhead related to the subbing and thus must take more from your sub, in the latter you are likely already working at other profitable jobs, and are more concerned with the quality of the sub, and the reputation of yours he/she will enhance: so you are willing to sub it for less. I don't think one can really perform both of these subbing mentalities at the same time. The only occasion I would sub is in the latter category, and I would be willing to pay my sub anything up to what my bid was + the time I spent orchestrating all this + any overhead it cost me.


And that could be sensible.
I think all would fare better if they realized that when you sub to a bonafide sub...you're actually just taking a "finder's fee" type thing.


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## propaintersatlanta (Nov 27, 2010)

I love subs. Were in this to make money. 
Don't take this personal. I'm not a painter
Don't get me wrong I can cut a straight line and trim baseboards, But I have never personally painted an exterior.Its not what I do. I'm in this to make money only nothing more nothing less. I have a project manager to do quality control and 2 separate sub crews to do the painting. 

Stop acting like this is rocket science. All you need are painters with common sense. If they don't know ask the project manager. 

My subs do good prep and paint bc they wanna keep getting more work. 

If they slack theirs 30 more guys are ready to take the work. 

Different strokes for different folks


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## propaintersatlanta (Nov 27, 2010)

Lowes and Home Depot sub their work(carpet,siding,windows)bet their subs do good work. 

Many dry cleaners sub work 

Furniture companies sub delivery


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

propaintersatlanta said:


> Lowes and Home Depot sub their work(carpet,siding,windows)bet their subs do good work.
> 
> Many dry cleaners sub work
> 
> Furniture companies sub delivery


Dont forget Klaw, he is a sub dude.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Local large franchise company gives just under 50% to their subs.

Subs are responsible for all materials and liability. 

They've fired most of their guys and rehired them as "subs" with no liability insurance, so that liability loophole could screw them, at least you get another 5% taken off your cut for wcb coverage....

Oh yeah, and half their jobs are quoted way under where they should be, so they've got lots of work, but lots of pissed off guys with nowhere else to go cause nobody else is hiring.... ><


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

BC_Painter said:


> Local large franchise company gives just under 50% to their subs.
> 
> Subs are responsible for all materials and liability.
> 
> ...


50% of what?


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Harry said:


> 50% of what?



The job total.


job costs customer 3,150
sub gets 1,500 for materials and labor


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## Brandon (Jul 14, 2021)

straight_lines said:


> And you could invest it in sales, and make even more money. Until things go south and word gets out that the customer could have hit craigslist and gotten the same guys to paint their house.
> 
> I can name at least four franchise painting companies that have done just that in my area. Big money spent on advertising, and an army of hungry former Kirby salesmen.


Certa pro for one…what a rip


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