# Problems with cover stain



## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I just finished a trim only job in which the trim was a dark stained wood coated with a poly. I did a quick, light sanding with 220, tacked it down and applied a coat of Cover Stain, and then finished with two coats of Muralo semi. The problem is that the cover stain left HORRIBLE, thick brush marks! the stuff didn't level at all!!! I have two questions I guess. First, is there an oil or latex primer out there with good stain blocking abilities that will dry down smoother? Second, if cover stain is indeed the best product for this application, are you guys reducing with penetrol, thinner, or both, and how much are you using? I completely killed my entire profit margin sanding the trim down, and this guy sounds like he wants me to work my way through his entire house redoing all the trim, and I really need to get this squared away. I appreciate any advice.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Sorry mp...can't say I've ever had that (or any other) problem w/coverstain.

There are some pretty smart folks here.. I'm sure they can help you out.

..and I'll be looking forward to seeing the answer myself.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I kinda think that alot of the issue was that the surface was non porous so none of the primer could penetrate and it all just sat on top. It was a tough environment anyway, as it was unseasonably warm when I applied it, and there was steady, strong airflow through the room, so the primer dried way too fast.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Oil base, nice long/strait brush strokes at the end I presume.

*still waiting for someone who knows WTH they're talking about to reply*

Come on people!


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Cover satin is thick. Thin it a little for lay down.
I usually use Zin Smart Prime to be a conversion primer these days. Quick, no smell, adheres well. Very smooth.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm having problems with it covering some adhesive that was used to hang paneling in a bathroom the black stuff is bleeding back through...

@ OP i would thin it a bit with penatrol..


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Delta Painting said:


> I'm having problems with it covering some adhesive that was used to hang paneling in a bathroom the black stuff is bleeding back through...
> 
> @ OP i would thin it a bit with penatrol..


I've been known to hit those spots with some aerosol Kilz or other shellac based product and Coverstain over it.

Out of the can, Coverstain is some thick stuff, and the working time to smoothly brush it on will vary with temp and humidity. Nothing wrong with thinning it a little.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

mpminter said:


> I just finished a trim only job in which the trim was a dark stained wood coated with a poly. I did a quick, light sanding with 220, tacked it down and applied a coat of Cover Stain, and then finished with two coats of Muralo semi. The problem is that the cover stain left HORRIBLE, thick brush marks! the stuff didn't level at all!!! I have two questions I guess. First, is there an oil or latex primer out there with good stain blocking abilities that will dry down smoother? Second, if cover stain is indeed the best product for this application, are you guys reducing with penetrol, thinner, or both, and how much are you using? I completely killed my entire profit margin sanding the trim down, and this guy sounds like he wants me to work my way through his entire house redoing all the trim, and I really need to get this squared away. I appreciate any advice.


Type of brush may have a little to do with it also....what did you use?


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## Painter Chick (Mar 1, 2012)

I would use Bin instead of the cover stain. It looks terrible going on and stinks but really lays flat.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

mpminter said:


> I just finished a trim only job in which the trim was a dark stained wood coated with a poly. I did a quick, light sanding with 220, tacked it down and applied a coat of Cover Stain, and then finished with two coats of Muralo semi. The problem is that the cover stain left HORRIBLE, thick brush marks! the stuff didn't level at all!!! I have two questions I guess. First, is there an oil or latex primer out there with good stain blocking abilities that will dry down smoother? Second, if cover stain is indeed the best product for this application, are you guys reducing with penetrol, thinner, or both, and how much are you using? I completely killed my entire profit margin sanding the trim down, and this guy sounds like he wants me to work my way through his entire house redoing all the trim, and I really need to get this squared away. I appreciate any advice.


Also you should of noticed it before you did the whole house, but that is not an option now.... So no matter what primer you used unless you sprayed it you would of noticed some brush marks, unless they are really bad I would just tell the ho that this is just a by product of a brushed surface and he is being overly critical....as far as the topcoat you used I'm not familiar with it do you think some brush marks may be coming from that?....hope it works out for you, keep us posted


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

I have been using cover stain for years. I have noticed when the product is fresh it is thin. As it sits in the can after opening it tends to thicken up.
Maybe it needs to be thinned out. It is very difficult to tell from here what's going on with your trim problem.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

wills fresh coat said:


> Also you should of noticed it before you did the whole house, but that is not an option now.... So no matter what primer you used unless you sprayed it you would of noticed some brush marks, unless they are really bad I would just tell the ho that this is just a by product of a brushed surface and he is being overly critical....as far as the topcoat you used I'm not familiar with it do you think some brush marks may be coming from that?....hope it works out for you, keep us posted


C'mon Wills, you have to read more carefully. 

He hasnt done the rest of the house yet. thats why he's asking the question.

Always enjoy your comments though :thumbsup:


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## Bighead (Nov 28, 2008)

Coverstain was reformulated about a year ago. The newer stuff is harder to work with, takes longer to dry and smells like hell. The older formula can still be found in quarts. Compare the ingredients. I refuse to work with the new formula.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I thin and then give it a quick sand.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

HQP2005 said:


> C'mon Wills, you have to read more carefully.
> 
> He hasnt done the rest of the house yet. thats why he's asking the question.
> 
> Always enjoy your comments though :thumbsup:


You may be right, but when he said the ho wants him to redo all the trim I took it that the trim was already completed with the paint.....no biggie mpm will comment soon

Always enjoy your comments though :thumbsup:
Thx .......the greenies always take them out of context, I wonder why


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

wills fresh coat said:


> Thx .......the greenies always take them out of context, I wonder why


Chuckling @ "greenies"


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> Chuckling @ "greenies"


Don't take that out of context, I repair/restore old penn spinning reels and they are called "greenies", the green you mods use is kinda the same color


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

wills fresh coat said:


> Don't take that out of context, I repair/restore old penn spinning reels and they are called "greenies", the green you mods use is kinda the same color


lol
So the "greenies spinning reels" take your PT posts out of context? You have some problems that need to be addressed with the aid of professional administered medication. :jester:


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> lol
> So the "greenies spinning reels" take your PT posts out of context? You have some problems that need to be addressed with the aid of professional administered medication. :jester:


That may be associated to me not wearing a respirator regularly for about 20 yrs.........and I meant that the color that I use to repaint the reels with reminds me of the mods......hence the term "greenies"


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> Cover satin is thick. Thin it a little for lay down.
> I usually use Zin Smart Prime to be a conversion primer these days. Quick, no smell, adheres well. Very smooth.


I like Smart Prime too but did have issues with some bleed through occurring when used over dark stained wood like the op has.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

wills fresh coat said:


> You may be right, but when he said the ho wants him to redo all the trim I took it that the trim was already completed with the paint.....no biggie mpm will comment soon
> 
> Always enjoy your comments though :thumbsup:
> Thx .......the greenies always take them out of context, I wonder why


 
My apologies,

Just re-read the OP myself, I see now how it could be interpreted both ways. :yes:


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

wills fresh coat said:


> Type of brush may have a little to do with it also....what did you use?


I was using a corona chinex 2 1/2" angle sash. If I had it to do over again I'd use a wooster alpha


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

wills fresh coat said:


> Also you should of noticed it before you did the whole house, but that is not an option now.... So no matter what primer you used unless you sprayed it you would of noticed some brush marks, unless they are really bad I would just tell the ho that this is just a by product of a brushed surface and he is being overly critical....as far as the topcoat you used I'm not familiar with it do you think some brush marks may be coming from that?....hope it works out for you, keep us posted


Just re-read my original post and I should clarify. I have only done one room, a small bedroom upstairs, and fortunately the least visible room in the house. All the trim in the whole house is done in the dark stain and poly, and I will probably end up converting it all to paint. As far as the top coat, Muralo dries down very smooth, and none of the brush marks are from that. If anything, the Muralo is actually improving the situation!


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

researchhound said:


> I like Smart Prime too but did have issues with some bleed through occurring when used over dark stained wood like the op has.



If he is going over a poly sealed surface- the oil poly should be enough to take care of the stain. it isn't raw or even raw stain.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> If he is going over a poly sealed surface- the oil poly should be enough to take care of the stain. it isn't raw or even raw stain.


I like to scuff sand before priming and you inevitably end up burning through the poly in a few places resulting in bleed through. This is what I'm concerned with. It has occurred to me that the best thing may be to use the water based primer, put down a first coat of finish, and if I have any bleeds just touch them up with BIN and then apply the second coat.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

That would work. But if you are going through the poly you are using to aggressive a grit or working too hard. You want to break the gloss, not remove it.


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## victmor (Oct 12, 2007)

When using coverstain over a non porous surfaces it is near impossible to lay down smooth with a brush without thinning. The stuff is too thick and just dries to quick. To remedy this I've been back rolling with a mini foam roller and that does the trick.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

In the past I have always used 220 for scuff sanding but I'm thinking of trying some 320 or higher just to avoid cutting through the poly. All I'm trying to do is remove small surface imperfections and dull the sheen. There's also the option of using a deglosser


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Must be pretty thin poly. 220 should be fine.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

The issue is mainly on the various edges of the casing and base. The flats aren't too bad, but yes, the poly is pretty thin.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> If he is going over a poly sealed surface- the oil poly should be enough to take care of the stain. it isn't raw or even raw stain.


The cabinets in my situation were in pretty rough shape so the finish had broken down and a fair amount of sanding was necessary. I had been using a lot of Smart Prime at the time and it was kind of an experiment. But one fail like that - even in an experiment - makes you never want to have it happen again. I just decided it wasn't worth chancing it and have always gone with oil primer since when covering dark wood. 

I do really like Smart Prime for many other situations. I especially like the way it takes tinting.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

mpminter said:


> In the past I have always used 220 for scuff sanding but I'm thinking of trying some 320 or higher just to avoid cutting through the poly. All I'm trying to do is remove small surface imperfections and dull the sheen. There's also the option of using a deglosser


 220 for scuff sand?!!? I am always using 100 or 120 for scuff sanding old trim, 220 is more the stuff of sanding between coats of trim paint for an extra fine finish


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

3m makes a 6" x 8" purple pad that we use to scuff trim. We cut the pad in thirds...what's nice is you can form it to what ever the profile of the trim is....we also keep the worn out ones to clean the ferral and handles of our brushes and use them to scrub off the excess paste after stripping wall paper....cut them up in 1" squares in place of schredded wheat...hmmmm tasty


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

mpminter said:


> Just re-read my original post and I should clarify. I have only done one room, a small bedroom upstairs, and fortunately the least visible room in the house. All the trim in the whole house is done in the dark stain and poly, and I will probably end up converting it all to paint. As far as the top coat, Muralo dries down very smooth, and none of the brush marks are from that. If anything, the Muralo is actually improving the situation!


Wow that's a good thing.....if the ho wants more trim painted I would try some test areas then let him approve before moving on, I would try to thin with a couple different amounts of thinner or try a different primer all together, maybe bin as someone said
Also you may want to try a natural hair brush, your brush maybe hurting you also


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## DrSmeller (Mar 24, 2012)

I would also vote for Bin. It's great for an enamel underbody and is a stain killer. In my experience brush marks are not a problem once the finish coats go on although it looks like hell by itself. A little difficult to work with as it dries so fast but this can work to your advantage once you get the hang of it. Be sure to have a quart of denatured alcohol on hand. Try to test some trim in a closet if possible. Good luck.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

I too used coverstain recently on stained cabinets and had the same problem. The finish on the cabinets didn't allow the CS to absorb. I used a black china bristle SW contractor series brush. The CS didn't sand well at all with light sandpaper. My idea of sanding is hitting it once or twice, not sanding the heck out of it to get it smooth. I rolled some of the CS with a mini foam roller. The pimples it left were not much better and I brushed all the finish coats of Pro Classic Acrylic so as not to have two different textures of pimples and brushmarks. Imo the brush marks look better on wood than having it rolled. I used coverstain cause I didn't trust an acrylic for adhesion. I may have to change my line of thinking. The coverstain does not dry in two hours as stated on the can either. It still seemed not completely dry the next day when I topcoated. I have used Bin and have to agree, I think it tends to lay out more flat. It does dry really fast too. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes not so good on bigger surfaces.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

I too used coverstain recently on stained cabinets and had the same problem. The finish on the cabinets didn't allow the CS to absorb. I used a black china bristle SW contractor series brush. The CS didn't sand well at all with light sandpaper. My idea of sanding is hitting it once or twice, not sanding the heck out of it to get it smooth. I rolled some of the CS with a mini foam roller. The pimples it left were not much better and I brushed all the finish coats of Pro Classic Acrylic so as not to have two different textures of pimples and brushmarks. Imo the brush marks look better on wood than having it rolled. I used coverstain cause I didn't trust an acrylic for adhesion. I may have to change my line of thinking. The coverstain does not dry in two hours as stated on the can either. It still seemed not completely dry the next day when I topcoated. I have used Bin and have to agree, I think it tends to lay out more flat. It does dry really fast too. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes not so good on bigger surfaces.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I like the idea of using BIN except that there are quite a few six panel doors that need to be done and I can't imagine brushing them out with something that dries so fast. I think I'll give smart prime a try and see how that works out.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

mpminter said:


> I just finished a trim only job in which the trim was a dark stained wood coated with a poly. I did a quick, light sanding with 220, tacked it down and applied a coat of Cover Stain, and then finished with two coats of Muralo semi. The problem is that the cover stain left HORRIBLE, thick brush marks! the stuff didn't level at all!!! I have two questions I guess. First, is there an oil or latex primer out there with good stain blocking abilities that will dry down smoother? Second, if cover stain is indeed the best product for this application, are you guys reducing with penetrol, thinner, or both, and how much are you using? I completely killed my entire profit margin sanding the trim down, and this guy sounds like he wants me to work my way through his entire house redoing all the trim, and I really need to get this squared away. I appreciate any advice.


Have you tried the BM Superior primer? It's supposed to have excellent adhesion and I believe stain blocking too. I have brushed it out and it brushed nice. Not sure why you would need stain blocking on a poly surface, it should be sealed by the poly already.

Also the BM advance primer brushes out nice too. I don't know if it's a stain blocker or not, but sands well once dry. 

I've never thought of using cover stain in a brushing on trim use. I know a lot of guys spray it on trim with good results. Bin is good, but you need to have the knack for it. IMO there are easier products to work with, like the two I mentioned.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Have you tried the BM Superior primer? It's supposed to have excellent adhesion and I believe stain blocking too. I have brushed it out and it brushed nice. Not sure why you would need stain blocking on a poly surface, it should be sealed by the poly already.
> 
> Also the BM advance primer brushes out nice too. I don't know if it's a stain blocker or not, but sands well once dry.
> 
> I've never thought of using cover stain in a brushing on trim use. I know a lot of guys spray it on trim with good results. Bin is good, but you need to have the knack for it. IMO there are easier products to work with, like the two I mentioned.


Thanks for the tip. I just looked up the BM primers and I think I'm going to play around with the Superior (which I've never tried) as well as the Enamel Underbody and the Zinsser Smart prime to see which one I like best. I also want to compare Muralo to Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd to see which one gives me the best hide.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

mpminter said:


> Thanks for the tip. I just looked up the BM primers and I think I'm going to play around with the Superior (which I've never tried) as well as the Enamel Underbody and the Zinsser Smart prime to see which one I like best. I also want to compare Muralo to Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd to see which one gives me the best hide.


I did a job about a year ago same exact thing- dark wood trim with poly going to white s.g.. I primed it with the oil coverstain and topped that with the pro mar 200 acrylic/ alkyyd. I was down at that place yesterday to do moore work. We brushed it all and I swear that trim looks like it was sprayed in a factory. It's perfect. That trim is perfect,man.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Coverstain does dry really fast. Usually, oil products are slow to dry, but coverstain literally skins in the opened can!

BTW-do you all use cs on redwood and cedar exterior trim? I will be using Super Paint and want it to stay put!


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## Kevo in Bama (Dec 12, 2011)

*No problems with cover stain.*

This concerns me. I've never had a problem with this product and it's been my primer over just about anything that was wood that needed priming. I've never had a problem with bleed through or anything.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

mpminter said:


> Thanks for the tip. I just looked up the BM primers and I think I'm going to play around with the Superior (which I've never tried) as well as the Enamel Underbody and the Zinsser Smart prime to see which one I like best. I also want to compare Muralo to Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd to see which one gives me the best hide.


I would suggest trying the BM Advance if you haven't already. I liked it better than the SW proclassic hybrid. 

The enamel underbody (217 I think) is an amazing product. At least it was last I used it, been a while. Don't know if it's been reformulated.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Check the ingredients and dates on these two cans found at home depot today.

http://awes.me/GTLH7E


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Check the ingredients and dates on these two cans found at home depot today.
> 
> http://awes.me/GTLH7E


 Shady. So who owns the company Rustoleum or Zinseer? I'll be sure to check the next can I see.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

jack pauhl said:


> Check the ingredients and dates on these two cans found at home depot today.
> 
> http://awes.me/GTLH7E


Yeah, I noticed this last week when looking at Zinssers web site, rustoleum must a bought em.

cant really make out the ingredients - are the different?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

HQP2005 said:


> Yeah, I noticed this last week when looking at Zinssers web site, rustoleum must a bought em.
> 
> cant really make out the ingredients - are the different?


Yes the ingredients are different and Yes Rust Oleum bought them up a few years ago.

FYI: All of the photos I post are from my Flickr account.

Click the photo posted and it will take you to Flickr. Hover over the photo and you should see a magnifying glass. Click the photo again. The photo will be displayed on a black background and the upper right corner has an option to view all sizes. From there you can view the originals.

Here is the original photo.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Shady. So who owns the company Rustoleum or Zinseer? I'll be sure to check the next can I see.


RPM ranked # 6 now. Earlier this year they were #5


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Changed position in the pecking order with BASF


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

1. rusteolm owns zinsser.
2. i have not heard of any changes to coverstain in the last few years other then the label issue. 
3. cover stain is a fast dry thick oil it will dry with the brush marks sometimes. works better as a spray 
4. BM 27000 underbody primer is the old school sloooowwwww dry primer that levels better then anything i have seen for a primer. slow dry= better leveling. it suck that it is 24-48 hour recoat and spendy but it is still the best
5.smart prime is the other opt if time is an issue, if not use the oil underbody


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

I would not reccommend using a quick dry product on a project where you have lots of trim to do. That is if it is going to take all day to prep and prime a section then why use a QD. BTW when they say QD they mean raw wood under perfect conditons, not sealed wood inside a room where the air flow is prob. not ideal. Brushing oil should go smoothly where you are not rushed. Even if it takes an additional coat at least it will be stress free. The reason it is considered CS is possibly because it has lots of titanium or the like, which is why it is QD most likely.
It's like hot mud the bag says 20 minutes but that is again under ideal conditions (thin layer, lots of air),not when you need to put it on a half inch thick.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I did a test piece with enamel underbody top coated with Pro Classic acrylic alkyd and I was really happy. The enamel underbody dries down really smooth and sands to a nice powder. The hide was decent and I think that's what I'll go with in the future, at least on this project. I used to use a lot of enamel underbody years ago, but for the longest time I didn't live anywhere near a BM retailer so I started using other products. I forgot how nice some of these products are! I have to say, I miss the old SW Premium Wall and Wood oil primer. That was some good stuff too.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

mpminter said:


> I did a test piece with enamel underbody top coated with Pro Classic acrylic alkyd and I was really happy. The enamel underbody dries down really smooth and sands to a nice powder. The hide was decent and I think that's what I'll go with in the future, at least on this project. I used to use a lot of enamel underbody years ago, but for the longest time I didn't live anywhere near a BM retailer so I started using other products. I forgot how nice some of these products are! I have to say, I miss the old SW Premium Wall and Wood oil primer. That was some good stuff too.


I find comments like yours very interesting as both PC paints rank highest on my list of how paint shouldn't behave. That's just my preference with ease of use in a product. 

Curious how you'd feel if you had a product with more than double the open time and brushes itself on the work. I work with product that is still workable and in the same time PC is well on its way to drying 10 mins in.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> I find comments like yours very interesting as both PC paints rank highest on my list of how paint shouldn't behave. That's just my preference with ease of use in a product.
> 
> Curious how you'd feel if you had a product with more than double the open time and brushes itself on the work. I work with product that is still workable and in the same time PC is well on its way to drying 10 mins in.


I second that Jack! If that's how you make a product that's user friendly I would hate to see a bad one!


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