# Paper Tiger use



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

As most know I find little use for scoring tools, preferring 36 grit in the palm sander.

However, today my paper tiger came up from the bottom of my stripping tools bucket.

estimated the job to be six hours, during estimate I tested and found it to be old pulp paper on paint adhered with wheat - easy money maker !

Soaked all the walls, and first area I stripped, I found it was on top of PAINTER PAPER  :cursing: :furious: :wallbash: :excl:

Quickly renegotiated the estimate and started what could have been a VERY loooong, miserable day (95 degrees outside, no A/C, 1000% humidity in that room)

Obviously with the walls being wet, I could not sand. I stripped the top layer of paper (which practically fell off), paper tigered the painted layer, and soaked it. Luckily the paint was cheap waterborne so a lot of moisture had already soaked through. It was not easy, but it stripped real well. 

Job done in seven hours, and the price increase made it worth it.

So yes Virginia, there is a use for the Paper Tiger.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Glad it worked out for you Bill. I don't do a ton of paper removal but when I do I bid it on a time basis since I never know what I'm likely to encounter.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> Glad it worked out for you Bill. I don't do a ton of paper removal but when I do I bid it on a time basis since I never know what I'm likely to encounter.



I always test - this time I almost got burned.

Did an estimate the other day that I was NOT allowed to pull up a little piece anywhere, I explained I could NOT give a firm price. She did understand.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I still use mine regularly. Shelly had me sand one of her jobs and it was just too tedious for me. The tiger works and I am NOT gonna change, so there.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> I still use mine regularly. Shelly had me sand one of her jobs and it was just too tedious for me. The tiger works and I am NOT gonna change, so there.


would any one expect anything else ? :whistling2:

BTW, did you use a palm sander? and just buzz it quickly? Or did you try to remove ALL the coating/paint. All one has to do is a quick buzz to break through the coating/paint in many spots. It seems to perforate more spots and closer together than the PT, thus allowing quicker and more thorough wet out WITH less water.

But it definitely is a tool I will have in that bucket.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

I agree situations like that I always have mine with me you never know when it will come in handy


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> would any one expect anything else ? :whistling2:
> 
> BTW, did you use a palm sander? and just buzz it quickly? Or did you try to remove ALL the coating/paint. All one has to do is a quick buzz to break through the coating/paint in many spots. It seems to perforate more spots and closer together than the PT, thus allowing quicker and more thorough wet out WITH less water.
> 
> But it definitely is a tool I will have in that bucket.


 
A palm sander certainly would make it easier, but then I would need to buy a sander, cut the sand paper to fit, have an extension cord, have a grounded plug adapter, still have to go over the whole wall, etc. I will stick with the tiger,at least doing my own jobs.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

When i bid a removal job, I always add that the price is contingent on how the paper comes off. 
I have a tiger but rarely ever use it.
Ive never tried sanding it.
What are the steps in doing it that way?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott,

I do this on paper that has a surface the stripping solution will not easily penetrate - either painted or vinyl coated, (Commercial vinyl pulls off the wall and acrylic coated just needs longer soak time, usually not worth busting through the surface).

I go through all the "hassles" Chris mentions (along with getting out of bed to go to work :whistling2 by putting a piece of 36 grit on the palm sander (a sander with a vacuum attached is preferable) and then quickly buzzing the wall before misting. This removes a bunch of the coating so that the solution can penetrate to the paper substrate and thus the paste and loosen it. If you do not have a vac on the sander, it is HIGHLY recommended to vacuum up the dust before misting. If you do not, the wet dust is a PITA to clean up.

I find it takes about half the time than to paper tiger and is about thrice as effective.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks Bill,

I will have to try that out.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Do the Paper Tigers have an adapter for a rolling pole? I just have the palm version.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Dare I say it but festool has a pretty stellar version.

Festool 495757 TP 220 Fakir wallpaper perforator.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> If you do not have a vac on the sander, it is HIGHLY recommended to vacuum up the dust before misting.


If only *somebody* would make a sander with a vac attachment. :whistling2::jester:


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## Bobbo (Jul 20, 2010)

scottjr said:


> When i bid a removal job, I always add that the price is contingent on how the paper comes off.
> I have a tiger but rarely ever use it.
> Ive never tried sanding it.
> What are the steps in doing it that way?



I quote a price for how I think the paper will come off and explain to the customer that if a more difficult job lies beneath the paper there may be a price change . I also try and give them an understanding of how much the upcharges may be if say we find another layer of paper underneath or if the paper has been installed on unpainted sheetrock .

p.s. I hate the paper tiger ! Have no use for it !


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> If only *somebody* would make a sander with a vac attachment. :whistling2::jester:


 
yea, there is ANOTHER reason


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

If I did more stripping, I would invest in a sander with a vac. I hear Fein makes a good one. Any other companies have anything similar ? :laughing: :brows: :devil2: :boxing:


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## Bobbo (Jul 20, 2010)

I just happened to be stripping some wallpaper today and what do I find under the 2 layers of paper ? I found that the previous homeowner had removed wallpaper before applying the 2 layers and decided to take it off with a paper tiger ! So not only were the walls scarred from his efforts to force the old paper off but they were also riddled with thousands of paper tiger holes ! I had to skim coat the whole job to get the walls back to shape ... Jeez Oh Pete !


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobbo said:


> I just happened to be stripping some wallpaper today and what do I find under the 2 layers of paper ? I found that the previous homeowner had removed wallpaper before applying the 2 layers and decided to take it off with a paper tiger ! So not only were the walls scarred from his efforts to force the old paper off but they were also riddled with thousands of paper tiger holes ! I had to skim coat the whole job to get the walls back to shape ... Jeez Oh Pete !


 
I see this ALL the time. The tiger in the hands of the HO is a disaster.
Hey, work is work, right?


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## Bobbo (Jul 20, 2010)

chrisn said:


> I see this ALL the time. The tiger in the hands of the HO is a disaster.
> Hey, work is work, right?


Yeah , The harder the job the more money to be made I guess . The funny thing about the job was that the HO put a layer of paper going sideways to pad out the bad wall ( Never seen that one before )


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Bobbo said:


> Yeah , The harder the job the more money to be made I guess . The funny thing about the job was that the HO put a layer of paper going sideways to pad out the bad wall ( Never seen that one before )


that's called railroading (running it sideway). With regular printed paper? or blankstock ?

I railroad all my blankstock now. Quicker and no need to super engineer to avoid seam overlap.


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

Yeah, I have always found the tiger just causes too much damage to fix for me. My current method is to use a 3 or 6 inch knife to peel the top paper layer then I spray the glue layer very liberally with water and let it soak for a bit, and if the wall paper gods are smiling on me it peels easily in sheets. However if that top paper layer wont peel any more than 1 inch little pieces.....It's going to be a very long day.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Lazerline said:


> Yeah, I have always found the tiger just causes too much damage to fix for me. My current method is to use a 3 or 6 inch knife to peel the top paper layer then I spray the glue layer very liberally with water and let it soak for a bit, and if the wall paper gods are smiling on me it peels easily in sheets. However if that top paper layer wont peel any more than 1 inch little pieces.....It's going to be a very long day.


 
It will be a VERY long day if you are actually trying to remove* GLUE*


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## Bobbo (Jul 20, 2010)

Lazerline said:


> Yeah, I have always found the tiger just causes too much damage to fix for me. My current method is to use a 3 or 6 inch knife to peel the top paper layer then I spray the glue layer very liberally with water and let it soak for a bit, and if the wall paper gods are smiling on me it peels easily in sheets. However if that top paper layer wont peel any more than 1 inch little pieces.....It's going to be a very long day.



I've found that if the top layer of paper is coming off inch by inch A good treating with Dif helps to loosen it up . Then once the top layer is off I treat it again and hope all goes smoothly


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

Bobbo said:


> I've found that if the top layer of paper is coming off inch by inch A good treating with Dif helps to loosen it up . Then once the top layer is off I treat it again and hope all goes smoothly


I have heard Dif helps quite a bit but just haven't givin it a shot


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

chrisn said:


> It will be a VERY long day if you are actually trying to remove* GLUE*


Actually once I get the glue layer mostly exposed its gravy. But its the paper layer that will sometimes put up a fight.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Lazerline said:


> Actually once I get the glue layer mostly exposed its gravy. But its the paper layer that will sometimes put up a fight.


 
Welllll, that's because it is PASTE( or adhesive) NOT glue. There is a major difference


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

read the label when you use DIF.

It recommends wearing a respirator.

Safe and Simple is NON-toxic. Mike has mistakenly drank it - and lived to be laughed at.

( I have no vested interest in this product, although Mike HAS bought me many dinners and drinks, but I'd still shill his product if he hadn't)


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

chrisn said:


> Welllll, that's because it is PASTE( or adhesive) NOT glue. There is a major difference


Oh man, That changes everything.....


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## Bobbo (Jul 20, 2010)

daArch said:


> read the label when you use DIF.
> 
> It recommends wearing a respirator.
> 
> ...



I always thought it had a funky odor ! I guess I should read the labels more often .


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I've always thought paper removal to be so easy. I've seen friends f' around with safe 'n simple, diff, chomp, etc. I just use the tiger tool and score the surface if it's vinyl - then I fill a pump up sprayer with boiling water and Downy fabric softener and I'll drench a wall eleven times if I have to before I start pulling paper off. My friend audrey whose stripped dozens if not hundreds of walls of paper, saw me do it once and became a believer. My 6" tape knife then goes across the wall and I'll literally collect 3" thick ooze of wallpaper paste before dispensing.

And if it's old fasioned paper with glue, then it's boiling hot white vinegar and again easy peasy.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Who hangs paper with GLUE ?

What kind? Elmers? Hide? Super Glue? Titebond III ?

None of the PROFESSIONALS that I know hang with glue.

And I doubt hot water and vinegar will bust through good old fashion hide glue.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

daArch said:


> Who hangs paper with GLUE ?
> 
> What kind? Elmers? Hide? Super Glue? Titebond III ?
> 
> ...


Just straight boiling white vinegar


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Boiling ?:blink:
Would that not melt the guts of the sprayer?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Here is a quote from the maker of Safe and Simple, maybe this will help someone

Chris:
Both paperhangers are right, but I don't think they know why or when.
Water temperature can make a difference. Usually the hotter the better. The reason is that heat is transfered to the adhesive USUALLY causes the molecular structure to change. This action (in the case of wallcovering) is "stirring up" the atoms that hold the adhesive chemicals together.
So hot water ON THE ADHESIVE is better.
Hot water applied to the OUTER FACE is neglible.
Heat transfer through air or solids can vary on the enviroment (i.e. are fans blowing?) Depending on the wallcovering, using hot water can make a difference, but this is not true of all wallcoverings, examples:
Applying hot water to the outer face of grass cloth. It would make a difference because the porous surface of the grass cloth readily soaks up any water, thereby, the hot water is getting to the adhesive sooner.
Applying hot water to commercial vinyl does not really help. Since commercial vinyl is so think, by the time the heat transfers through the vinyl, it is (most likely) cooled to room temperature.
Applyin hot water to prepasted's helps. Since the paste was laminated to the back of the wallpaper at the factory, the heat transfer is gets to the adhesive a bit quicker.
Living in Southern CA, our tap water is never really that cold when compared to Canada on a hot summer day. There is probably a 30 degree difference. With that much temperature difference, it can make removal easier.
Keep in mind that by simply applying water (at any temperature) tends to make most wallpaper adhesive's properties change. The addition of heat can change the properties further. Our 603 product is engineered to chemically reactivate most adhesives that are made from natural sources. Clays, clears, are made of earthly or natural ingredients.
When you look at water or the above adhesives through a microscope you see what looks like a field stone pathway in your backyard. Different sized atoms, twigs, gaps, etc. Water or heat tends to swell the atoms causing them to want to move.
Enter VOV:
Just the opposite occurs when heat is applied to VOV. It actually gets stronger. VOV is man made. The molecular structure (under a micorscope) looks alot like window screen mesh. That atoms are aligned and in order. The adhesive is actually not thet great, but the fact that the atoms all line up is what give VOV it's sticking power.
When removing VOV it is best to wet it, then move the fluid around in a swirling manner. This swirling action is what disturbs the natural alignment of the atoms.
FYI: Have you ever noticed that removing wallpaper from an area that gets a tremendous amount of direct sunlight seems tougher? It is. The solar heat gain over a long period of time is continually cooking (and destroying) the chemical make up clay & clear adhesives. That is why it is nver a good a idea to paper inside window sills exposed to high temperature variations. In CA, a window sill can reach 100 - 130 degrees in the summer, but cool to 60 in the winter. That is a 100% +/- change in performance.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> Here is a quote from the maker of Safe and Simple, maybe this will help someone
> 
> <BIG SNIP>


ahhhh, what does he know ? :whistling2: :jester: 

He's only stripped more square footage than Norwall has sold crappy product. :thumbup:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> ahhhh, what does he know ? :whistling2: :jester:
> 
> He's only stripped more square footage than Norwall has sold crappy product. :thumbup:


 
and that's a lot:laughing:


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