# Never Paint Again!



## Nathan

I'm getting pretty sick of hearing companies that sell ceramic paints and other specialty coatings claim that you will never have to paint again if you hire them. One guy near me in Central Florida was giving a life time warranty with each paint job.

These claims are bogus. I knew the guy who was giving away life time warranty and he had never lived anywhere for more than 3 years so he had no intention of following through on that piece of paper he handed out to all his customers. What's worse is he charged then at least double for this "miracle" ceramic paint. When I asked him about it he said he was basing his claim on what the manufacturer was telling him.

Do you guys have guys like this in your area and if so how do you bid against them? Its hard to look a customer in the eye and tell them that the other guy is lying so I never did that. I did tell them that I didn't believe in the product though and that I was leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering that service. That usually helped my case.

Thoughts?


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## Brian

We have lots of these in Houston. They'll be around for a year or two, and then disappear. I will point this out to customers if the issue comes up. I also mention that I'm suspicious of a lifetime warranty-- whose lifetime?

Brian Phillips


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## slickshift

There are not many of those outfits around here
I do get inquires about them, a fair amount considering most houses here are not candidates for them (most houses are clear/natural cedar shingles on three sides, painted front and trim only)
It usually goes like : "So...what do you think of those..."

My response is simply the truth
I don't know of, or have I heard of, any reliable contractor offering the service
Any contractor I see advertising the product is either new, or gone very quickly, or both
None of my suppliers offer the product, which is marketed directly to Homeowners rather than contractors (which is a warning flag)
I know of no responsible contractors that think highly of the products

Other than that I really don't know much about the products, good or bad
I really don't know anyone that's used them, or can tell me they are good or bad, the wave of the future or a hoax


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## Brushslingers

I normally tell people thus - Yes, it's your lifetime... not the lifetime of the house, it's up to you.

They normally get the picture.. sorta like those lifetime alignments for your truck.


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## slickshift

I've never seen a warranty on a product that covers normal wear and tear
This includes so-called "Lifetime Warranties"
They only cover manufacturers defects

Even the Rigid (tool) Lifetime Warranty, one of the -if not _the_, most liberal warranty policies I've ever seen, doesn't cover nearly what people think it does, nor all the Rigid tools people think it does

The Warranty Wars are tough on marketing depts. though
Even SWP's Duration does have a Lifetime Warranty
I guess they felt they had to do it
(It's against bubbles btw-again, not normal wear and tear)


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## slickshift

Nathan said:


> ...I knew the guy who was giving away life time warranty and he had never lived anywhere for more than 3 years so he had no intention of following through on that piece of paper he handed out to all his customers. What's worse is he charged then at least double for this "miracle" ceramic paint. When I asked him about it he said he was basing his claim on what the manufacturer was telling him.


Your the first person I know that even knew/knows someone who offers this service

That's about what I expected to hear about them


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## slickshift

Interesting what the Perma-Coat Of New England left on their website
http://www.permacoatnewengland.com/


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## Nathan

slickshift said:


> Interesting what the Perma-Coat Of New England left on their website
> http://www.permacoatnewengland.com/


That site isn't working for me?


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## Wolverine

Nathan said:


> That site isn't working for me?


Ha Ha... Out of business already!!!

Okay,

We are not into residential (or any kind of latex) paint... However, I think I can help you guys out.

First, it is unfortunate that these manufacturers even call those products "ceramic paint". Technically, it's not! Basically they are making paint with 100% acrylic that contains ceramic microspheres. These spheres are hollow beads with a specific gravity of about 0.7 (~ 5.82 lbs per gallon). Now, all of you guys know that most latex is pretty heavy and is typically at least 10 lbs. per gallon. So, the ceramic microspheres tend to rise to the surface of the coating. Since they are very hard (ceramic) and round, the cured film has pretty good scratch resistance. However, you have to think about what is going on beneath that layer of spheres. It's just a layer of acrylic paint. I have personally tested several of these products in the past and found them to be slightly better than a good housepaint. 

So, what about the customer who thinks that the warranty is going to save them? Well, it's just like about any other warranty out there. First, it doesn't cover normal wear and tear... like cracks from settling. Also, when you do have to repair, you typically need to recoat an entire wall to blend it in! 

Some of these companies are BANKING on the fact that people don't really live in the same house for long periods of time like they used to. Most of the warranties don't transfer. So, if you can charge 3x the price and people only a small percentage of people live in a house for more than 5-8 years on average, your actual claims will be much less than the 3x the price you charged to everyone else. It's a pretty sound gamble in a world where people who would buy this paint get transferred by their companies at an alarming rate.

Now, this is getting a bit long so...

Do we even have to discuss... PRO-RATING ???

lol...

You guys get the picture...


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## Joewho

Typical imbalance between sales and craftsmanship. 

There never will be a replacement for good old fashioned, hard, honest work. There may be a place for the "ceramic" products, and I'd be interested in learning more about them.

Maybe normal painters should offer the product, without false guarantees, at the appropriate pricing. "BUT WAIT, you also get......."


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## Brushslingers

Joewho said:


> "BUT WAIT, you also get......."


Juillian fries!!! :thumbup:


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## Workaholic

*Lifetime warranties*

My father in-law says that some one asked him about a what kind of warranty he gave on a paint job, he told the guy you see those tail lights.. When they are gone so is your warrant. LOL in his defense he told that to family.


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## ibsocal

I have done that type of work as a sub contractor and what a rip off it is.dont do it anymore.a lot of hype/marketing $$$$ spent on promotions. 3 coat system.i tell potential clients that color trends change all the time and do you really want to be stuck with the same color for your life time.


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## smithoman

You are telling it like it is! A couple of years I painted a home that was coated by Sears about 20 years ago with some sort of polymer. Remember that stuff? Well, I gotta tell ya, it was HELL to get off the facia boards! I ended up using a belt sander and 60 grit. Perhaps they were close to the lifetime achievement but the place looked beat! 

I know what you mean about big guarantees and then the losers skipping town. Then there are the "paint the whole house in one day" guys. 

I'm lucky, we do only high quality work with the best materials. My boss is a Master Painter with 35 years union experience and I've put in around 15 painting on my own. We often run across poor customers who have been fleeced or paint disasters from low quality people. Here in Boulder, Colorado there seems to be a good quantity of qualified professionals. The hot shots come and go and rather quickly around these parts.


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## slickshift

Nathan said:


> That site isn't working for me?


It basically says we're sorry, the product failed horribly, we were duped by the manufacturer who lied to us...sorry, but we're outa here


oooh-I just checked the site...it's g o n e gone
Musta not liked being posted up eh?


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## Nathan

Oh man.... I wish I could have seen it. I'll look again.


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## Nathan

Here is what the site looked a year ago: http://web.archive.org


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## slickshift

Nathan said:


> Here is what the site looked a year ago: http://web.archive.org/web/20060420131012/http://www.permacoatnewengland.com/


Cool
Can you go back a week
I did check it before I posted, it was as I described it when potsed


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## slickshift

slickshift said:


> Can you go back a week


I just tried
Guess not


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## Nathan

Here is Yahoo's cache of the page but it will go away soon: http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.permacoatnewengland.com%2F&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.permacoatnewengland.com/&d=GwiT6PmdOl2X&icp=1&.intl=us


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## slickshift

Boy nothing posted up in the internet ever really goes away huh?

Let this be a warning to all those Spring Break Partyers with cameras and picture phones
It may seem funny or cool to post those pics now, but when College is over and it's time to get a job....


That's pretty cool how you snagged that


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## masterblaster

hello fellas,new to the forum

I would agree with most of what is stated here,But I have done a ton of research on never paint again type products,I have also done a good bit of testing on 4 of these products that I knew had been around for awhile,and that i was able to get my hands on.....its not easy.

Wolverine:I would be very interested to know some of your results in your testing and what products where tested. I was not able to test CHIC. I have a business that does many different types of specialty coatings. We do home exteriors and decorative concrete spray jobs and overlays as well as paint jobs with regular paint SW Duration for lower $ clients. I have found AMVICO to be the best material out there.It contains 67 % solids and 31% of that is PVC. that being said I still believe it really comes down to sprayed mill thickness rather it will work long term or not. Its very hard to find complaints on this manufacturer or any of its dealers. Its home base is in your state,Id be interested to know if you have any experience with it.

Its a rare day that anyone speaks about any of these products from hands on experience,99% is hearsay and totally worthless


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## Wolverine

Welcome to the forums masterblaster...

It has been a number of years since I evaluated those coatings. I'll have to try to dig those old notes up. I completed the work under contract so there are some details I won't be able to share... like brands. You can imagine that we were certain to test the top selling brands, local brands, and brands made in Europe (specifically the UK). 

Since I continue to be a consultant to coatings chemists and raw material suppliers in the southeast, I still get the inside scoop on the latest. Little has changed in actual formulations of these products. 

We tested alot of the claims they were making at the time. They used to even claim that the coating added an R value of 16! There has been big changes in the marketing of these products. You'll notice in my posts that I did find that these coatings were slightly better than quality housepaint. The real problem was expectations due to insane marketing claims. 

We tested pull off adhesion, impact resistance, driving rain, QUV (ultraviolet light), insulation properties, radiant heat reflection, permeation, peel strength...etc. I don't remember ANY of the companies living up to their marketing claims. 

I'm not current on the warranties, but... I don't remember ANY of the companies saying anything about fading. The warranties used to leave a fair amount of loopholes in regards to peeling as well. Our tests did not show any products to be subjected to flaking under accelerated testing conditions due to the high elasticity. 

So, IOW... I didn't see that the stuff you actually cared about was REALLY covered in the warranties. Let's face it, when your house fades, you repaint it regardless of whether there is any peeling or flaking or not. 

I'm glad you are successful with the products you like. I'm sure that there is not anything I could say that would convince you otherwise. And, I am aware that there are MANY smaller manufacturers who have the ingenuity to make a better mousetrap. I just haven't seen it yet!


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## masterblaster

wolverine: all good info,and i wouldnt say there is nothing you could say to change my mind on any givin product as long as it was real data. I do not have the means to test materials like you are talking about. I am really much more concerned with real world testing done in real time. I pay close attention to failures i see with paint on exteriors,like brick molds on windows and fascia returns going back over the roof. So I use these different paints and coatings on the same type boards and siding and test them on the back of my garage roof where they see sun almost all day in racks that hold them in place,all with different primers and different mill thicknesses to see why these failures are most likely caused.It does take awhile,but you would be surprised how fast results turn up with some of these high end paints and coatings.

I know some of the marketing claims where pretty crazy,Kryton was the biggest bluffer with their R rating factors,they changed their marketing because the fcc forced them too after a class action law suit was won against them.also the breath ability of ceramic coatings is way to low to work well on any wood substrate,they may be good candidates for concrete or effis systems. but still not as good as a vinyl based product that breathes at a rate of 15 perms.


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## wallcoatingsguy

its sad to read all this. 

I hope none of you chaps will confuse the brand "never paint again" here in europe, with yours in the usa!!!!!!!!!! (Not connected in any way). 

I have been in coatings for 22 years and ive seen and heard it all before, but its not all bad. Why do people focus on all the rubbish spray jobs when there are lots of good ones too.

I have examples i personally did in elastomeric textured coatings over 20 years ago here in england and they still look fine. Exterior wallcoatings are as good as the people applying them though. If the fitters/installers/contractors couldnt care less, then the coating will fail.

Not all coatings are bad, and i hope people in the USA arent as gullible as to think that "never" means never ever ever!!!!!!!! (we have a disclaimer on our site saying that never doesnt mean never ever, it means it lasts for up to 25 years and it does!!!!!!!!!)

so there!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tmrrptr

Wall, did the sun ever shine on those coatings, applied in the uk ?

WE, (large island off coast of japan) have sunlight ta da !

sunlite degenerates everything 

except grapevines and new painters travelling here from down south.

lastomeric good for 10 - 15, or a earthquake or two, whichever comes first.
r


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## SgtBaldy

Normally you don't have to worry about bidding against these types of outfits. They don't want to do that because they know if the customer talks to real painters the jig will be up.

Most of them cold call people. One outfit I know puts adds in classifieds all over the state asking for '10 lucky home owners who want to showcase their new lifetime coating'. People think it is for free but when the salesman comes out to their house within the hour they get the high pressure sales pitch. Once job is signed they have their subs out there within an hour or two to pressure wash and start the job. They call it spiking the job because it makes it more difficult for the homeowner to back out once the work is started. The job is usually done before the 3 day cancellation period of their contract is up. When customers ask where the written warranty is they are told it is in a mailer which naturally never comes.

I have more info on these companies and their tactics on the elastomeric thread.


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## Runamuk

I had the opportunity to use PPG Timeless a couple of weeks ago. =

Suffice it to say that I'll never use the product again and I'll refuse to do any job that requires it. Garbage in Garbage out!

Quite frankly it is one of the worst products that I've ever used! No hide, No build, and impossible mil thickness requirements. 

I reluctantly paid $215 per five for JUNK!

Mark My Words: NEVER AGAIN! 

Rick


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## premierpainter

I do sub work for one in NJ. They do about 300 houses a year. I have to say, we have not gone back to one call back in 4 years and it is next to impossible to get off any equiptment that we have. I am not a seller, just an installer so don't get pissed at me for making money with them. They do charge a crazy price for this stuff too. It is crazy


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## Runamuk

premierpainter said:


> I do sub work for one in NJ. They do about 300 houses a year. I have to say, we have not gone back to one call back in 4 years and it is next to impossible to get off any equiptment that we have. I am not a seller, just an installer so don't get pissed at me for making money with them. They do charge a crazy price for this stuff too. It is crazy


I've been doing this for 27 years and I hope that I learn something from this site.

I also know that there is not a "lifetime" product on the market. And I hope that you are not basing your business on all the B.S. Marketing of this product! "Your" reputation, not the paint companies, depends on it.

Rick


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## cole191919

I cannot believe this picture was posted on their site. This was supposed to professionally explain something to a consumer?


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## premierpainter

Runamuk said:


> I've been doing this for 27 years and I hope that I learn something from this site.
> 
> I also know that there is not a "lifetime" product on the market. And I hope that you are not basing your business on all the B.S. Marketing of this product! "Your" reputation, not the paint companies, depends on it.
> 
> Rick


Like I said, Rick, I am an installer, not a salesman, or owner. Yeah, it does suck that this spring I will be painting 43 houses and one huge church. No advertising costs ="s free work for me- I'll take it. Last year they paid us just shy of $220k. that is what most on this board do all year.


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## masterblaster

premeirpainter. Interesting to hear you have had good experiences with one of these type products. What is the manufacturers name and the company you install for ?I research these products as best I can before i use them. Keep in mind that a GOOD paint will last 5 ot 6 years or so,the real test for these products will take place around this point in their life span.

Nathon.. I cant seem to bring back up that link with the info on why they went out of business. could you repost a working link if you can find it?


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## premierpainter

masterblaster said:


> premeirpainter. Interesting to hear you have had good experiences with one of these type products. What is the manufacturers name and the company you install for ?I research these products as best I can before i use them. Keep in mind that a GOOD paint will last 5 ot 6 years or so,the real test for these products will take place around this point in their life span.
> 
> Nathon.. I cant seem to bring back up that link with the info on why they went out of business. could you repost a working link if you can find it?


It is called Tex Coat out of Florida. Primer goes on 16 mils. Top coat is normal. I think that you need to "own" a territory to purchase this. The company I work for has a site www.ihatepaint.com I think it is on the site


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## contractormarketing

Nathan said:


> I'm getting pretty sick of hearing companies that sell ceramic paints and other specialty coatings claim that you will never have to paint again if you hire them. One guy near me in Central Florida was giving a life time warranty with each paint job.
> 
> These claims are bogus. I knew the guy who was giving away life time warranty and he had never lived anywhere for more than 3 years so he had no intention of following through on that piece of paper he handed out to all his customers. What's worse is he charged then at least double for this "miracle" ceramic paint. When I asked him about it he said he was basing his claim on what the manufacturer was telling him.
> 
> Do you guys have guys like this in your area and if so how do you bid against them? Its hard to look a customer in the eye and tell them that the other guy is lying so I never did that. I did tell them that I didn't believe in the product though and that I was leaving a lot of money on the table by not offering that service. That usually helped my case.
> 
> Thoughts?


Nathan, Read these guys warrantees closely. Usually they only have a one year labor warranty, which is about 10-20% of the cost for most of them.

Plus the warranty won't cover cracking or settling of the house or existing moisture in the substrate.

Seems to me those are most of the problems they are having. The coatings don't breathe well and trap moisture so they crack and chip and peel, none of which is covered under their warranty.

A few are offering 25 year labor warranty like the Liquid Siding/Liquid Stucco companies and a few new comers like Rhino Shield. When you see that Liquid Siding/Liquid Stucco has lost 18 dealers in just 2 years and Rhino Shields owners used to be Liquid Siding dealers AND dealers for another failed "Never Paint" company. 

It makes you think, are these guys just going from place to place with a new private labeled paint they can foist off on the public with a promise they will "Never Paint Again"?

Its sad that companies are claiming never paint again and then leaving once the service problems start to get bad.

I hope I didn't violate any of the boards TOA. I just get so mad about these kinds of fly by night companies.


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## contractormarketing

Nathan said:


> That site isn't working for me?


That is because they are now the Rhino Shield dealer in that area.


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## contractormarketing

masterblaster said:


> hello fellas,new to the forum
> 
> I would agree with most of what is stated here,But I have done a ton of research on never paint again type products,I have also done a good bit of testing on 4 of these products that I knew had been around for awhile,and that i was able to get my hands on.....its not easy.
> 
> Wolverine:I would be very interested to know some of your results in your testing and what products where tested. I was not able to test CHIC. I have a business that does many different types of specialty coatings. We do home exteriors and decorative concrete spray jobs and overlays as well as paint jobs with regular paint SW Duration for lower $ clients. I have found AMVICO to be the best material out there.It contains 67 % solids and 31% of that is PVC. that being said I still believe it really comes down to sprayed mill thickness rather it will work long term or not. Its very hard to find complaints on this manufacturer or any of its dealers. Its home base is in your state,Id be interested to know if you have any experience with it.
> 
> Its a rare day that anyone speaks about any of these products from hands on experience,99% is hearsay and totally worthless


Nice ad for Amvico. Try looking on Vila's boards:
http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/42356.html

I'm sure that thread has something about AmVico.


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## tin man

I live in Boston area hear ads on radio allot,this spray on vinyl siding can only be as good as the paint its going over.
________________________________________________
replacement windows ma


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## Brian

I received a mailer today from Tex Coat inviting me to open a dealership for their product. They have an exclusive deal with Costco, and I'd have access to all of their customers. 

Boy am I excited! I'm making retirement plans already. I can't decide on a cave someplace where all of my disgruntled customers won't be able to find me, or the state prison.

Seriously, I may call them. The literature is about a new product they are offering that reduces heat transfer. Since I already apply one such product, I have a slight interest in this. I'll give an update if I learn anything interesting.

Brian Phillips


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## Nathan

Brian said:


> They have an exclusive deal with Costco, and I'd have access to all of their customers.


Interesting. Certa Pro owns a lot of the US market with Costco. I know in both Northern VA and Austin they are in every store.


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