# Ceiling marks



## cuttingedge (May 5, 2014)

What is the best way to leave no ceiling marks from rollers leaving their nap marks? Im not talking roller edge but flashing from roller marks. 
What I used was Zinsser 123 primer over new drywall. Then two coats of ceiling paint rolled on with a purdy white dove 3/8 cover . I rolled in the direction of light coming through the windows and rolled in one direction. I still could see flashing marks. I appreciate your input. Thanks! Joe


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Hard to say with out seeing someone actually rolling out out a ceiling. What finish coat are you using? Also, I always use a 1/2" nap on smooth lids, helps put the paint to er.


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## cuttingedge (May 5, 2014)

Customer wanted Ace Royal ceiling paint. I definetly rolled it out correctly except for the fact that I used a 3/8" cover. I will switch to a 1/2" cover. Thanks.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Pure white or tinted color? Color tinted with glycol tints can flash for a while, then tone down as the paint cures


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I can't find any Tech Data Sheets for the Ace Royal paints, but I'd wager a strong guess that with cheap paint like that their ceiling white is nowhere close to a real dead flat. All ceiling paints aren't made equal- something like the Benjamin Moore 508 is a true dead flat (0 sheen at 85 degrees) whereas this product could be significantly more. That's going to significantly increase how visible your roller marks are.

As far as leaving marks in the first place, a higher quality paint can help with that as well. I haven't had much problem with the White Doves in that regard.

Regarding glycol tints- glycol never actually dries, and that causes problems with many manufacturers trying to have tinted dead flats. BM's colorants don't use any glycol in them- there may be others in the industry that I don't know of. I'd highly recommend taking some time to read up on your paints so when a customer requests something bad like Ace house brand paint you can let them know why that's a bad idea.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm also finding that the 123 seems to not give as good of a holdout as it used to. And I find it interesting that I can't find any technical data sheets on the Ace royal paints to check the gloss level on their ceiling paint. That's kind of unusual. But the label and their TV commercials say it's the most awesomest paint, so I don't have any idea what the problem could be.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

One coat of properly applied (maintain a wet edge and even application) Benjamin Moore Fresh Start 046, plus one or two coats of their 508 ceiling paint (also properly applied) equals ceiling perfection. 1/2" x 18" covers are perfect for smooth, and 3/4" for textured ceilings.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

What was the purpose of the 1-2-3 as the primer coat?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I have had really bad experieces with Ace paint. The Royal is really bad. Used semi in a bathroom and it tooks days to dry before I could put a second coat on.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have had really bad experieces with Ace paint. The Royal is really bad. Used semi in a bathroom and it tooks days to dry before I could put a second coat on.


I had a customer in about 5 minutes ago complaining about Ace paint. Said she liked to go there since it was local, but she was going to go with me from now on since she knew the quality would be there.


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

Really? I actually love Ace's Royal paint and have never had issues with it when it's been requested, interior or exterior. Rolls and brushes out like velvety butter, and the eggshell cleans up really well. Not sure how well the flat holds up to burnishing though.
I prefer it over SW price comparable lines and definitely prefer it over anything Ben Moore (aside from Aura which I have yet to try, but I would never spend $70 on a gallon of interior paint).


And as far as glycol in tint, Ben Moore still does use glycols. Every one of their GenX colorants has either polyethylene glycol or propylene glycol in it. It might not be anywhere near the levels it used to be, but it's still in there.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

cuttingedge said:


> Customer wanted Ace Royal ceiling paint. I definetly rolled it out correctly except for the fact that I used a 3/8" cover. I will switch to a 1/2" cover. Thanks.


Not a good ceiling paint because it has some sheen. Applying more coats makes it worse. I have found either really cheap flat like SW optimus or a higher end like BM ceiling paint.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Woodford said:


> I had a customer in about 5 minutes ago complaining about Ace paint. Said she liked to go there since it was local, but she was going to go with me from now on since she knew the quality would be there.


When I used it I was just starting out on my own and the HO bought it. Lesson learned. I will not use it again.


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## Gerard's (Oct 2, 2010)

cuttingedge said:


> What is the best way to leave no ceiling marks from rollers leaving their nap marks? Im not talking roller edge but flashing from roller marks.
> What I used was Zinsser 123 primer over new drywall. Then two coats of ceiling paint rolled on with a purdy white dove 3/8 cover . I rolled in the direction of light coming through the windows and rolled in one direction. I still could see flashing marks. I appreciate your input. Thanks! Joe


Ceilings should be rolled both directions. You also may have bought an inferior paint.


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

We used to use Ben Moore Murasco but it went up to $31 a gallon...it's a very thick
bodied paint and we've had problems with flashing from time to time....we switched to 
Master Hide flat white...I know it's not as good in quality and thinner but it seems to roll out to a better finish for us....I find the most problems are caused when you have high windows that let light in across the ceiling....that situation seems to highlight every little imperfection in the roll coat....


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Keep in mind that 123 does have a slightly higher sheen to it than most primers. As much as I absolutely love the stuff, it's tricky to use as a drywall primer if you're going to be top coating with a flat. I've had issues with it flashing through in the past.

I've never heard of the ceiling paint you're using, but if it's not the best it might not be hiding the sheen of the 123.


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## EddieVanWhalen (Feb 11, 2015)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Keep in mind that 123 does have a slightly higher sheen to it than most primers. As much as I absolutely love the stuff, it's tricky to use as a drywall primer if you're going to be top coating with a flat. I've had issues with it flashing through in the past.
> 
> I've never heard of the ceiling paint you're using, but if it's not the best it might not be hiding the sheen of the 123.


I couldn't agree more! I use the "original" bullseye on my ceilings because of this exact problem. It drys flatter... less body and less holdout, but it seems to seal fine and no flashing. one top coat with 508 or CHB every time.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Hmmmm...I just finished a ceiling with 123 and 508 (repaint over major ceiling repairs two south-facing windows...lots if critical light). The roll covered fine in one, the cut-in needed two. I rolled a second anyway because I spec'd two in the proposal. Used a Purdy Colossus 1/2 18 ". 




Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I agree that the K508 is one of the best ceiling paints out there (it's the best I've used personnaly) That being said, I'm yet to find a perfect product.

I've used it where the ceiling was fairly low and the windows were high, resulting in flashing the roller strokes. It's a very forgiving product, but good luck with an 8 feet ceiling with windows going up to 7 feet. I even added BM's extender to help with the open time. I'm refering to what salmangeri posted above. It's really how low the ceiling are compared to a good light entrance that will make a difference, IMO. Or if a ceiling is maybe a tad higher, but very large, then at one end of the room you might still have some problems with the imperfections of the finish. I've had this conversation with my BM representative, he had to agree with me, even when I use the best product it's impossible to do a perfect job under critical conditions.

If anybody has found a perfect product or combination of products (primer and paint), please let me know, I'll be forever grateful.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

My experience from listening to thousands of painters in four states for over thirty years, you either have to buy a cheap, clay and chalk pigmented flat, or a top of the line ceiling paint. anything in between can be trouble.


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## cjames (Apr 6, 2013)

I've seen monkeys roll on SW CHB and not have it flash. So I would prob go with that with a 1/2" marathon.

I wouldn't use either one of those products personally.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

I say a half inch roller cover also. With the sheen on some primers, sometimes the roller skids or rolls unevenly, which may add to possible flashing. Although that would be less likely with a 3/8.


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

I believe it is the roller cover. You have to put too much pressure to get the material out of a 3/8 sleeve. I use 3/4 inch sleeves for my ceilings.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ogre said:


> I believe it is the roller cover. You have to put too much pressure to get the material out of a 3/8 sleeve. I use 3/4 inch sleeves for my ceilings.


If you are "pushing" the paint out of the roller, you will have lap marks. I have very many painters that use a 3/4" sleeve just for that very reason.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Criard said:


> Really? I actually love Ace's Royal paint and have never had issues with it when it's been requested, interior or exterior. Rolls and brushes out like velvety butter, and the eggshell cleans up really well. Not sure how well the flat holds up to burnishing though.
> I prefer it over SW price comparable lines and definitely prefer it over anything Ben Moore (aside from Aura which I have yet to try, but I would never spend $70 on a gallon of interior paint).
> 
> 
> And as far as glycol in tint, Ben Moore still does use glycols. Every one of their GenX colorants has either polyethylene glycol or propylene glycol in it. It might not be anywhere near the levels it used to be, but it's still in there.


Sorry, they may have trace amounts of glycol left in them- what I should have said is that they're not glycol-based tints. The amount is negligible.

As far as preferring Ace over Ben Moore and never buying a $ 70 can of paint (it's only 60 here anyways)... each to his own I guess. Can tell a lot about a painter from what they buy!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Sorry, they may have trace amounts of glycol left in them- what I should have said is that they're not glycol-based tints. The amount is negligible.
> 
> As far as preferring Ace over Ben Moore and never buying a $ 70 can of paint (it's only 60 here anyways)... each to his own I guess. Can tell a lot about a painter from what they buy!


Make sure you don't post on that last Behr thread. The native are getting bored with it all. And since I apparently "rule" that thread, I have agreed to let lt die an ignoble death. I just wonder if the odor lingered longer than the thread did.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Don't you find that 3/4" nap leaves an undesirable finish on smooth surfaces? I wouldn't even characterize what a 3/4" nap leaves behind as stipple.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

804 Paint said:


> Don't you find that 3/4" nap leaves an undesirable finish on smooth surfaces? I wouldn't even characterize what a 3/4" nap leaves behind as stipple.


I seem to be in the minority, but I have found that the size of the nap has almost nothing to do with how much stipple you leave on the surface. More important is the type (microfiber, etc) and the technique. A cheap 3/8" nap will leave a terrible finish compared to a pro 3/4" nap.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

kdpaint said:


> I seem to be in the minority, but I have found that the size of the nap has almost nothing to do with how much stipple you leave on the surface. More important is the type (microfiber, etc) and the technique. A cheap 3/8" nap will leave a terrible finish compared to a pro 3/4" nap.


Not to mention that any small amount of stipple would help to refract (I think that's the correct term) any shine off of the ceiling.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Not to mention that any small amount of stipple would help to refract (I think that's the correct term) any shine off of the ceiling.


I used a 3/4" Purdy Colossus on a ceiling once for just that purpose and was horrified with the results. I let the roller do the work, so I wasn't pushing or anything. It just looked kinda blobby or smeary…hard to explain. It definitely wasn't the kind of stipple I'm used to seeing. The Colossus are weird covers though. They are very sparse but somehow hold the paint in.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I've always thought of the Colossus as rollers for people who are worried about speed. Their main selling point is holding tons of paint, so I've always assumed the trade off is the quality of the finish. You can't have it all  I haven't used them, though, so I'm curious when and why you guys do.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I've always thought of the Colossus as rollers for people who are worried about speed. Their main selling point is holding tons of paint, so I've always assumed the trade off is the quality of the finish. You can't have it all  I haven't used them, though, so I'm curious when and why you guys do.


Microfibers are the best in my opinion. I have used them all, the colossus leaves a decent finish. It sounds funny when rolling.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

With repairs, skim coats, creating new smooth surface..sometimes building up some stipple is a time issue. If i cant get time to spot roll some ceiling paint on the primed/repairs, then i look to see if a 3rd coat is needed, or just roll the 3rd coat and that seems to build up the stipple texture enough to blend repairs.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

straight_lines said:


> Microfibers are the best in my opinion. I have used them all, the colossus leaves a decent finish. It sounds funny when rolling.


Just curious, what did it sound like to you? I used one and it made little fart noises!


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## EddieVanWhalen (Feb 11, 2015)

Jazz_Painter said:


> I agree that the K508 is one of the best ceiling paints out there (it's the best I've used personnaly) That being said, I'm yet to find a perfect product.
> 
> I've used it where the ceiling was fairly low and the windows were high, resulting in flashing the roller strokes. It's a very forgiving product, but good luck with an 8 feet ceiling with windows going up to 7 feet. I even added BM's extender to help with the open time. I'm refering to what salmangeri posted above. It's really how low the ceiling are compared to a good light entrance that will make a difference, IMO. Or if a ceiling is maybe a tad higher, but very large, then at one end of the room you might still have some problems with the imperfections of the finish. I've had this conversation with my BM representative, he had to agree with me, even when I use the best product it's impossible to do a perfect job under critical conditions.
> 
> If anybody has found a perfect product or combination of products (primer and paint), please let me know, I'll be forever grateful.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...1P64rm3RH-m8PBFs4rMsN1Kg&ust=1426247979782929 

I use this primer and and SW CHB and it has never failed! I think the key is to use and actual primer that dries FLAT. if you still have roller marks after you use this combo you are dry rolling or are unbelievably inconsistent. both products cost around 16-17$ 

Oh and colossus covers are bad news for finish coats! you need a premium cover


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## roygones (Apr 19, 2011)

BM ceiling paint is the flattest paint I've ever worked with, and I have yet to have any trouble with it. It's so flat you can actually touch it up and the touch-ups go away completely. You can also roll part of a ceiling, let it dry completely, then roll into it later with no lap marks at all. Did a massive church ceiling with it over multiple days and it looked great. Most paints labeled flat aren't, and some have so much sheen they should be forced to stop putting it on the label. I'm almost sure that your problem is that the paint you're using isn't really flat at all.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

roygones said:


> BM ceiling paint is the flattest paint I've ever worked with, and I have yet to have any trouble with it. It's so flat you can actually touch it up and the touch-ups go away completely. You can also roll part of a ceiling, let it dry completely, then roll into it later with no lap marks at all. Did a massive church ceiling with it over multiple days and it looked great. Most paints labeled flat aren't, and some have so much sheen they should be forced to stop putting it on the label. I'm almost sure that your problem is that the paint you're using isn't really flat at all.


The paint they're using is definitely the major part of the problem. It's the major component of the system, along with the primer. Adjusting the applicator is really just chasing the problem around until it gets fixed.


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## redd (Mar 22, 2015)

Depending on how trigger happy the texture dude went , I would use a 1/2 colossus on it. Was never a colossus fan, I love my white doves to death on smooth walls but getting into the heavier texture walls the 1/2 colossus is where it's at. Yeah the 3/4 nap holds more paint and covers more, but also tends to drag/slide on the surface if you have too much paint. I like it sloppy, but not too sloppy haha


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