# Water based lacquer



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

I have a job coming up and the customer wants me to paint a few doors using a water borne lacquer...Anyone have success using an airless?..What tip,what pressure and what primer did you use?..{Actually most of these waterborne's also have their own quick drying primer}..Did you lay them flat or not?


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Crickets...:thumbup:

Not one of you have ever used a waterborne lacquer with an airless?

The stores must be selling that chit to someone...:yes:


----------



## pinchegordo (Jul 3, 2011)

I just did a job with WB LAQUER over alder.sand ,condition, stain, sanding sealer, scotch brite smooth then 2 coat of laquer... Looks awesome! I used a .211 tip with the pressure around 2600ish


----------



## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

I use a 310 or a 410 depending on what I am shooting, Pressure set at whatever gives the best pattern. The stuff I used was self sealing, so it did not require a sanding sealer. I dont lay doors flat.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

pinchegordo said:


> I just did a job with WB LAQUER over alder.sand ,condition, stain, sanding sealer, scotch brite smooth then 2 coat of laquer... Looks awesome! I used a .211 tip with the pressure around 2600ish


I'll be using an off white color...Clears don't show the imperfections as much.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

pinchegordo said:


> I just did a job with WB LAQUER over alder.sand ,condition, stain, sanding sealer, scotch brite smooth then 2 coat of laquer... Looks awesome! I used a .211 tip with the pressure around 2600ish


I'll be using an off white color...Clears don't show the imperfections as much...My rep says to use a 309 or 310FF on doors...I'm not sure that I want to spray them standing up...Maybe I'll experiment on one door first.


----------



## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

If you spray them standing up you can do all the sides at once, I have never heard a good reason to spray them laying down.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Mike's QP said:


> I use a 310 or a 410 depending on what I am shooting, Pressure set at whatever gives the best pattern. The stuff I used was self sealing, so it did not require a sanding sealer. I dont lay doors flat.


I talked to my rep today and he says the Valspar 5104 doesn't require a primer,even on new doors...That somehow doesn't seem right to me..I'll investigate a bit more.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Mike's QP said:


> If you spray them standing up you can do all the sides at once, I have never heard a good reason to spray them laying down.


I'm just worried about runs...I suppose it will take some practice...I've only sprayed oil and latex with my airless.


----------



## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

Use light coats, lighter than you think you should. it will build on the sharp edges pretty quickly.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Listen to Mike. Plus its lacquer. It drys really fast. You'll find a balance between not enough product ( because it will burn the finish) and just right. You have to try hard to get it to heavy with a 410. Its not that hard. Promise.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Bender said:


> Listen to Mike. Plus its lacquer. It drys really fast. You'll find a balance between not enough product ( because it will burn the finish) and just right. You have to try hard to get it to heavy with a 410. Its not that hard. Promise.


Waterborne lacquers do not burn into the previous coat.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> Waterborne lacquers do not burn into the previous coat.


Some do. Target 6000 has indefinite burn in.


----------



## Benji-mooreadam (Sep 15, 2011)

There are a few self priming lacquers, the Sherwin one is the best I've seen so far. A .211 fine finish tip is always better because the double atomization helps keep the coating fine and workable with light coats. Standing the door is the best because you can fine tune your technique to avoid runs on the first pass or two, but id practice on something first as I have heard WB lacquers can be tough to sand if you get major runs.


----------



## Benji-mooreadam (Sep 15, 2011)

Outlaw Jose Whales, love that one!!


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Benji-mooreadam said:


> There are a few self priming lacquers, the Sherwin one is the best I've seen so far. A .211 fine finish tip is always better because the double atomization helps keep the coating fine and workable with light coats. Standing the door is the best because you can fine tune your technique to avoid runs on the first pass or two, but id practice on something first as I have heard WB lacquers can be tough to sand if you get major runs.


A 211 is not a double orifice tip. Only even #'s. .008, .010, .012


----------



## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Waterborne lacquers do not burn into the previous coat.





DeanV said:


> Some do. Target 6000 has indefinite burn in.


MLC Agualente does as well. 

I'm not sure how well a WB lacquer will spray with an airless - haven't tried it - though i've heard it can cause microbubbles. 

I'm also not sure how well an airless will break up the material - though if you're used to shooting regular trim paint you'll see a big improvement. The best result would be accomplished with pressure and air (AAA).

It's much thicker than solvent lacquer but much thinner than paint. Needs to be sprayed on very thin as well (2 wet mils) or you risk wrinkling and all kinds of funny issues.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Adding a touch of alcohol, distilled water, and secondary butyl to the KemAqua will get rid of about all the air bubbles that may arise from using an airless sprayer to apply it. Did a complete hospital's doors, cabinets and headboards, etc., with it all using an airless. 150+ gallons of KemAqua.


----------



## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Anyone ever use these? 



211 ff tips


----------



## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Anyone ever use these?
> 
> 211 ff tips


Nope, but I might check those out!


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Wolfgang said:


> Adding a touch of alcohol, distilled water, and secondary butyl to the KemAqua will get rid of about all the air bubbles that may arise from using an airless sprayer to apply it. Did a complete hospital's doors, cabinets and headboards, etc., with it all using an airless. 150+ gallons of KemAqua.



Care to share the exact amount of distilled water and denatured alcohol to a gallon of the Kemaqua?

What do you mean by "secondary butyl"?


----------



## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

they make a reducer/retarder for the kemaqua, I would use that.


----------



## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> Care to share the exact amount of distilled water and denatured alcohol to a gallon of the Kemaqua?
> 
> What do you mean by "secondary butyl"?


Wolfgang I would also like to know your formula.

Distilled water for thinning, denatured alcohol for drying and 2nd butyl to increase adhesion?


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

robladd said:


> Wolfgang I would also like to know your formula.
> 
> Distilled water for thinning, denatured alcohol for drying and 2nd butyl to increase adhesion?



I'm guessing that he's using a 409 for doors and a 309 for trim..What say you?


----------



## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> I'm guessing that he's using a 409 for doors and a 309 for trim..What say you?


Just read the PDF lots of info. Butyl is for flow and leveling I have heard that it also can improve adhesion, how much idk.

With the added reduction he may get it to go through .009"

He might be using a 310 for doors and a 210 for trim.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Anyone ever use these?
> 
> 
> 
> 211 ff tips


Dang! a 113! Thats got to be like using a squirt gun.


----------



## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

^ Finishing Mikes birdhouse.


----------



## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

Friend of mine just used a 111 Graco tip on an extension for spraying ceiling grid on a small project....do they get much smaller than that lol?


----------



## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Ok I know the orifice size is pretty small at .11 but wouldn't it still be pretty heavy since it is a more concentrated spread? I would think the equivalent of a 213 or something... excuse mg ignorance as I have never needed a tip with a fan that narrow.. I use 311 and 411s..


----------



## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> Adding a touch of alcohol, distilled water, and secondary butyl to the KemAqua will get rid of about all the air bubbles that may arise from using an airless sprayer to apply it. Did a complete hospital's doors, cabinets and headboards, etc., with it all using an airless. 150+ gallons of KemAqua.


Now that is information worth talking about. Right on man.

On a side note, I did a set of doors in solvent born lacquer last week. I used the three screw method (two on one end, one on the other) and sprayed them flat on horses. Much easier to rag on the stain and sand between coats. 

I was shooting 313 and didn't overlap passes much and ONLY ran each pass once. No back and forth. No 'ooh looks a little light I'll add a little there'. These were the best stain grade doors I've ever done. Sheen was super even. 

Shellac sealer, sand, old masters wiping stain, lacquer, sand, lacquer, sand, lacquer.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Sorry about not getting back to this until now. Correct on the distilled water for some thinning. Correct again on the alchol for drying, and the secondary butyl for leveling/flowout and adhesion. I was mixing it in 5's, but followed the PDF for amounts with the butyl and did the alcohol and water to suit the technique and conditions. Sprayed the first coats with a 414FF for build and after sanding switched to a 412FF for the headboards, (they were laying flat), and a 410FF for the other pcs.

The secondary butyl is available through SW, depending on your store they may have to order it. Seriously, it makes a world of difference when it comes to eliminating air-bubbles and flowout.

Due to this being for a hospital in Colorado, the KemAqua was specced in the job along with a mil thickness requirement which is why I used the larger tip for the first coats. I had to test and send mil reports for every batch of finished product.

One thing about KemAqua you may want to be aware of is the cure time. It will dry to touch and be sandable fairly quickly, however the cure time is longer. I tried to explain this to the contractor. He got in a hurry to have and store them on the job site and when they stored them he put rosin paper between the headboards. Had to re-do about 25% of them. So be careful on the type of tape/paper you use and how long you let it stay on.


----------



## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Which hospital, Wolf?


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I'm thinking it was Rocky Mountain Medical Center up in the Loveland area. There was an article on it in one of the SW magazines. Have no idea who the General Paint Contractor was - I was hired by the mfg of the cabinets/woodwork.


----------

