# SW Pro ind WB Alkyd Urethane vs Multi Surface Acrylic



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Painting wooden chairs in an environment where they can't be sprayed. They'll be used in an orthodontic waiting room. Which is the better product? I know MSA is dubbed as an equal to the old Breakthru but how well does it brush? How tough is the Alkyd Urethane?

The chairs have some type of clear on them already. Do they need priming with these products?

Wish I had the old Breakthrough available to me but I don't. I trust the new formula on trim and doors but not chairs, cabinets and the like.

And yes, Pac...I would use Ultraplate were it not 90 miles away from me.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I tested them both side by side on a cabinet door that has stain finished cabinet door. I just cleaned it, didn't sand or prime. 

The Alkyd Urethane didn't layout nice with a brush and after 3 weeks it scratched right off with ease. The MSA layed out a little better and I couldn't get it off with my nails, I was able to chip it with a 5in1. If it were me I'd go with the MSA.


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## tnw322 (Jun 6, 2016)

I have used alkyd urethane package white and it was a pain to lay out. It's hiding power is less than desired, took three coats to cover a spot prime of problock. And the ordinal color was white! I was not happy. I would use high performance acrylic or MSA every time against it.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I tested them both side by side on a cabinet door that has stain finished cabinet door. I just cleaned it, didn't sand or prime.
> 
> The Alkyd Urethane didn't layout nice with a brush and after 3 weeks it scratched right off with ease. The MSA layer out a little better and I couldn't get it off with my nails, I was able to chip it with a 5in1. If it were me I'd go with the MSA.


That's interesting. I thought the Alkyd Urethane would be the one to lay out nicely but maybe not be as hard or bond as well. 

I wonder how well MSA would level out if Floetrol or similar were added? 

Isn't there a Pro Industrial product that some around here were raving about its leveling abilities? Could have sworn it was the Alkyd Urethane.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

I just used the PI WB Alkyd Urethane for the 1st time this past week. Been looking for a good opportunity to try the gallon of white semi I had on the truck for a few weeks. Interior repaint of a finished basement of an older home with a number of substrates to be painted. 

I used it on previously painted wood trim, stair risers, basement poles (steel) and drywall--all brush and 4" roller. I found it to work very well and laid out better than I expected with much less sagging and running (than my usual BM Advance). Did not have to babysit nearly as bad in the corners. Hide was about like any "off the shelf" white and would probably benefit from a "shot" of something if going over any other color than white. The odor was mild and did not linger, dried fast to 2nd coat same day. All in all, I was surprised. 

I cannot comment yet on the hardness/durability. The product is specifically marketed for hardness--not sure why they would choose that aspect if not at all true. I will be going back soon to paint a brick fireplace and mantel with the same product soon. I will do a test for hardness at that time.

My rep said it is being used on an older hotel renovation in my city. All exterior wrought iron will be painted white (after Sher Cryl primer). That, to me, says they trust the hardness/durability, but I guess we'll see. 

I've only used the MSA once--exterior metal building. Mostly sprayed and worked nice. The brush and roll part was OK, but it was hot and not a great test for that. 


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I would say the hardness and coverage of the hp acrylic is far superior to the other two products. I used all three on a metal surface and the overnight adhesion passed the fingernail test with ease and I had to chip it with my 5 in1 to make a scratch mark


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## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

radio11 said:


> I just used the PI WB Alkyd Urethane for the 1st time this past week. Been looking for a good opportunity to try the gallon of white semi I had on the truck for a few weeks. Interior repaint of a finished basement of an older home with a number of substrates to be painted.
> 
> I used it on previously painted wood trim, stair risers, basement poles (steel) and drywall--all brush and 4" roller. I found it to work very well and laid out better than I expected with much less sagging and running (than my usual BM Advance). Did not have to babysit nearly as bad in the corners. Hide was about like any "off the shelf" white and would probably benefit from a "shot" of something if going over any other color than white. The odor was mild and did not linger, dried fast to 2nd coat same day. All in all, I was surprised.
> 
> ...


I used the urethane waterbourne for cabinets in white i thought it brushed out and touched up very well. As for hardness it held up to the fingernail test after 48hrs for me.


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## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

I am looking to try the msa but wondering what the sheens are like


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

bobross said:


> I am looking to try the msa but wondering what the sheens are like


Eggshell and gloss, I've only ever used the eggshell. Heard they're coming out with a semi but I don't know when.


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## canopainting (Feb 12, 2013)

A SW rep told me MSA is more of a shop paint than for trim and doors. We have used the urethane alkyd on trim and door repaints and the sheen, adhesion were and fine.


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## four2knapp (Jun 19, 2011)

I like the urethane enamel as it brushed as well as sprayed.
-as someone stated above no sagging. 
-I sanded and primed mine and it is hard as nails. 
-I agree the lighter color does not cover well. I was painting over hunter green and it took 3 coats
- I used a dark color (SW Porpoise) and is soft & easily dents with a fingernail after 4 weeks. Luckily it was only a sample.
-I switched to the PI Acrylic. Had a hard time dialing it in. Time will tell.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I would say the hardness and coverage of the hp acrylic is far superior to the other two products. I used all three on a metal surface and the overnight adhesion passed the fingernail test with ease and I had to chip it with my 5 in1 to make a scratch mark


HP? High Performance Epoxy?? How does it brush?



four2knapp said:


> I like the urethane enamel as it brushed as well as sprayed.
> -as someone stated above no sagging.
> -I sanded and primed mine and it is hard as nails.
> -I agree the lighter color does not cover well. I was painting over hunter green and it took 3 coats
> ...


That's too bad. The color is going to be Southern Belle which is a pretty dark blue.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

four2knapp said:


> I like the urethane enamel as it brushed as well as sprayed.
> -as someone stated above no sagging.
> -I sanded and primed mine and it is hard as nails.
> -I agree the lighter color does not cover well. I was painting over hunter green and it took 3 coats
> ...


That's a characteristic of BM Advance (darker colors not curing as fast as the lights). Is this an issue that we'll be dealing with with all the newer waterborne paints that claim to be water dispersed alkyds and/or, acrylic/alkyd blends?

My SW rep said their water borne alkyd/urethane was their crossover to BM Advance.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

So help me out peeps. What am I brushing these guys with?? Am I priming first?


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

How many molar chairs are you painting? 

If it is a med/dark blue color that you're working with--I'm not sure what product I would use. Many do seem to take a while to cure. 


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

radio11 said:


> How many molar chairs are you painting?
> 
> If it is a med/dark blue color that you're working with--I'm not sure what product I would use. Many do seem to take a while to cure.
> 
> ...


13 chairs


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

804 Paint said:


> HP? High Performance Epoxy?? How does it brush? That's too bad. The color is going to be Southern Belle which is a pretty dark blue.


 it's called high performance acrylic. I used it for a the color relic bronze. It was ultra deep base and achieved full coverage in two coats on new white aluminum trim. Also two coats on some steel support columns after they were cleaned up with a 60 grit flap disc. Hard as nails in less than 24 hours


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Prime with BM 217 and topcoat with Satin Impervo.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

804 Paint said:


> So help me out peeps. What am I brushing these guys with?? Am I priming first?


1/4 inch nap mini roll as much as you can. MSA calls for a woven nap. 

Oh and by far the best mini rollers I've ever used are from Home Depot  labeled best. The purple ones are great for production stuff and the woven for everything else. :yes:


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## four2knapp (Jun 19, 2011)

jr.sr. painting said:


> it's called high performance acrylic. I used it for a the color relic bronze. It was ultra deep base and achieved full coverage in two coats on new white aluminum trim. Also two coats on some steel support columns after they were cleaned up with a 60 grit flap disc. Hard as nails in less than 24 hours












What I was suggesting as well. I used extreme bond primer. My suggestion is to tint the primer to a p5. That blue may not cover well.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> 1/4 inch nap mini roll as much as you can. MSA calls for a woven nap.
> 
> Oh and by far the best mini rollers I've ever used are from Home Depot  labeled best. The purple ones are great for production stuff and the woven for everything else. :yes:


Here's the thing; I cannot mini roll anything and not tip it off. I simply cannot bring myself to leave the roller stipple on anything smooth. Even with Advance I still can see the evidence of stipple and it drives me crazy. Don't get me wrong, I use a mini roller all the time to apply paint faster and more evenly, but I always tip it off. Also, with the mini rollers I cannot seem to avoid the roller line each lap leaves. I dunno why...and I've tried every roller and use little to no pressure to apply.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> it's called high performance acrylic. I used it for a the color relic bronze. It was ultra deep base and achieved full coverage in two coats on new white aluminum trim. Also two coats on some steel support columns after they were cleaned up with a 60 grit flap disc. Hard as nails in less than 24 hours





four2knapp said:


> View attachment 80145
> 
> 
> What I was suggesting as well. I used extreme bond primer. My suggestion is to tint the primer to a p5. That blue may not cover well.


Ok but how well does it brush out?



PRC said:


> Prime with BM 217 and topcoat with Satin Impervo.


Sorry would love to but can't. Need a faster cure.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

804 Paint said:


> Painting wooden chairs in an environment where they can't be sprayed. They'll be used in an orthodontic waiting room. Which is the better product? I know MSA is dubbed as an equal to the old Breakthru but how well does it brush? How tough is the Alkyd Urethane?
> 
> The chairs have some type of clear on them already. Do they need priming with these products?
> 
> ...


Sunce when did they change the formula? Are you sure its not that there is 50 150 and 250 voc options


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## four2knapp (Jun 19, 2011)

804 Paint said:


> Ok but how well does it brush out? Sorry would love to but can't. Need a faster cure.


Brushed out very well. The dark color I just did is hard after 12 hours.


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## four2knapp (Jun 19, 2011)

804 Paint said:


> So help me out peeps. What am I brushing these guys with?? Am I priming first?


What did you end up using? And how did it turn out?

I just brushed a large mantle (5' tall x 7' wide) in SW pro industrial waterbased alkyd urethane in "Creamy." It sagged all over the place. Very difficult to brush a long run.... did not layout well on top of the mantle (it has a raised hearth and no one can see it without a ladder). Not my favorite any more. Designer changed color. Tomorrow, I will be sanding and repainting with SW pro industrial Acrylic.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

These SW products inferior compared to BM Advance or Coronado Rustscat. Two much better products. Easier application.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I too have used the Extreme Bonding Primer and MSA with excellent results. In fact, I do all my exterior doors with MSA and have been for some time. Couldn't be happier with the results. I find it odd a SW rep would say it isn't meant for doors or cabinets - it's what my two very knowledgable SW guys both recommended I use.

MSA is designed to primarily be sprayed and I haven't really done any brush or roller work with it so will have to bow to the experience of others in that regards.

I do wish the MSA had something in-between eggshell and gloss - though the eggshell is closer to what would be a satin in most other brands/products.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> These SW products inferior compared to BM Advance or Coronado Rustscat. Two much better products. Easier application.


Zoomer, just curious, have you been able to use much of the MSA? 

I don't care for either of our two local BM outlets so I have generally stayed away from Advance but I find it hard to believe it would be very much superior to MSA other than perhaps in it's brushing/rolling capabilities. If you have the time, I'd like to hear more detailed feedback as to why you feel Advance is better.

Thanks,
Dan


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

RH said:


> I too have used the Extreme Bonding Primer and MSA with excellent results. In fact, I do all my exterior doors with MSA and have been for some time. Couldn't be happier with the results. I find it odd a SW rep would say it isn't meant for doors or cabinets - it's what my two very knowledgable SW guys both recommended I use.
> 
> MSA is designed to primarily be sprayed and I haven't really done any brush or roller work with it so will have to bow to the experience of others in that regards.
> 
> *I do wish the MSA had something in-between eggshell and gloss *- though the eggshell is closer to what would be a satin in most other brands/products.


So do I. I have to paint the exterior of some new french doors (not made of wood but some type of plastic or fiber glass) in semi gloss black. 

I'm priming them with extreme bonding primer, then giving that Snap Dry a shot. I wanted to use MSA but obviously cannot due to sheen. Anyway, I'm willing to try the Snap Dry due to the fact that it seems to rain around noon or 1PM every time I'm at this particular house. It comes in a pre-tinted black so I'm being optimistic. On the flip side, I'm not spraying. Brushing and rolling with a 3/16" microfiber. The doors get direct sunlight almost from the get-go so I have to work fast. I considered using Resilience instead but want to test out the Snap Dry.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Have used MSA before. Intially I found it sprays fine. Much grittier than Advance. It dries faster, yet softer and not nearly as beautiful a finish regardless of sheen.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

four2knapp said:


> What did you end up using? And how did it turn out?



Job is next week. Just did an initial testing coat on a spare cabinet door. Primed the top half of the front of the door with SW Extreme Bond left the other half unprimed. 

Coated the left side of the door front with SW Pro Industrial Acrylic Eg Shell. It leveled just ok...brush strokes can easily be seen. Finish is lacking luster...was told here it is akin to Satin. Not so. 

Coated the right side of the door front with BM Super Spec DTM Alkyd Low Luster. I was told the finish is nice and it is the hardest thing BM sells, and that the cure time is quick since it's meant for use in industrial settings. 

Very disappointed in the leveling. I mean, this is an oil, right?? Brush strokes easily seen. Did it last night and this morning it was still tacky (16-hour recoat time), so the sheen level isn't known yet. 

I'm going to 2-coat the floating panel only for hide testing purposes tonight and then do some fingernail testing in a few days. I really hope one of them is holds out. 

Pissed about not being able to get Breakthrough in its original kick-ass formula. That crap was perfect. 



Zoomer said:


> Have used MSA before. Intially I found it sprays fine. Much grittier than Advance. It dries faster, yet softer and not nearly as beautiful a finish regardless of sheen.



MSA is softer than Advance??? I don't find Adavance all that hard.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

Cabinet Coat? Muralo Ultra? I worked with Muralo last week--it dented fingernail after 2 days, but should cure fairly hard. 

I'm working with oil based stuff for the first time in months. I still hate it. Tacky for a looong time and no good for your application. Hoping one of your tests works out. 


BTW, did you say that you tried the SW PI Waterbased Alkyd Urethane? Or just the PI 100% Acrylic?



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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

radio11 said:


> Cabinet Coat? Muralo Ultra? I worked with Muralo last week--it dented fingernail after 2 days, but should cure fairly hard.
> 
> I'm working with oil based stuff for the first time in months. I still hate it. Tacky for a looong time and no good for your application. Hoping one of your tests works out.
> 
> ...


The manager at my BM store said she does not like cabinet coat...says that it mars too easily. They can get it but I elected not to try it. 

Muralo -- not available to me.

It was us the PI 100% Acrylic as recommended in this thread. Tested a small area this evening (24 hours) and it easily scratched off both the primed and unprimed portions of the door.

I'm going to leave the door outside so it gets some heat during the day (in the shade though). Hopefully that will speed up the curing process of both paints and I can figure out which one I'm going to use. I can't imagine the Super Spec curing fast enough to go into service in a week's time, but we will see. Still tacky 24 hours later. Definitely hides better than the PI Acrylic though.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I recently used the BM Super Spec DTM Alkyd low-luster on an exterior wrought iron handrail and thought it was crap. Poor leveling and stayed tacky for way too long. SW's Alkyd Urethane is a far superior product.

Have you tried PPG Pitt-Tech? I've got a test gallon sitting in my garage that I'm waiting to try out. I'm guessing that its performance should be similar to the Breakthrough formula that you liked.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

I didn't realize that the PI Acrylic was in this thread. I haven't used it, but have used the WB Urethane Alkyd (stock white) and the Multi Surface Acrylic (dovetail) with good success. 


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I would say the hardness and coverage of the hp acrylic is far superior to the other two products. I used all three on a metal surface and the overnight adhesion passed the fingernail test with ease and I had to chip it with my 5 in1 to make a scratch mark


This is the product I used in my test. Painted on Monday. Still easily scratches off with fingernail.

The ONLY product I have ever seen pass a fingernail test in a day or week even is the old Breakthrough. 

Given this, I might just go with Advance. It gets hard enough (and has a great finish) and I'm running out of test time for this PI Acrylic to cure more. I guess if by Tuesday it doesn't come off I'll go with it because I already have a gallon, but the finish and leveling leaves something to be desired.

BTW on the test door I left some primer (Extreme Bond) exposed. I can get the high part of the film off with my thumbnail but can't get it down to the bare substrate, so that's a good sign.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

There are several acrylic and acrylic/urethanes that I've used that scratch too easy even a week after but they then become tough once cured. Breakthrough is exceptional in its initial cure.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

PRC said:


> There are several acrylic and acrylic/urethanes that I've used that scratch too easy even a week after but they then become tough once cured. Breakthrough is exceptional in its initial cure.


Well it's tough to trust something will eventually cure very hard. I should have started my testing earlier but life has been crazy and it always feels like you have more time than you do. It would be nice to use the PI Acrylic since I already have it. Although it doesn't come close to leveling as well as Advance.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> Well it's tough to trust something will eventually cure very hard. I should have started my testing earlier but life has been crazy and it always feels like you have more time than you do. It would be nice to use the PI Acrylic since I already have it. Although it doesn't come close to leveling as well as Advance.


I'm suprised you had cure issues with it within a week. The one time we used it was on HMF and sprayed 2 coats in a day and next day it wouldn't scratch. 
Do you not want to use the new formula of Breakthrough because you've had problems with it? 
By the time I got to trying it I was able to do 1 job before the new formula was out. The only difference seemed to be a little more open time. Blocking, cure, etc. all seemed the same.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

PRC said:


> I'm suprised you had cure issues with it within a week. The one time we used it was on HMF and sprayed 2 coats in a day and next day it wouldn't scratch.
> Do you not want to use the new formula of Breakthrough because you've had problems with it?
> By the time I got to trying it I was able to do 1 job before the new formula was out. The only difference seemed to be a little more open time. Blocking, cure, etc. all seemed the same.




What color was it?

The new Breakthrough doesn't have near the hardness of the 400 VOC. Not even close. I have samples I painted in Nov and can scratch it off. Too bad I painted an entire Airstream camper with it. 

It does level nice and finishes well. It's good for trim and doors IMO but not much else.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Looks like I'm going with Advance. The PI Acrylic is getting harder but I can still take it off with my thumb nail. Will it get harder than Advance eventually? Maybe. But I seeing that I have to start painting the chairs Wed, I just can't assume it will. Plus, if it only dries equal to or slightly harder than Advance, it's hardness probably won't outweigh its inferior finish.

BTW I've noticed that both products tested (PI Acrylic & BM P23 Alkyd) both scratch off the primed section of the test door than they do the unprimed section. Primer still easily stays intact, just the paints don't seem to have bonded to the primer as well as the substrate (unknown clear).


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've found same with PI Multi surface. On some surfaces it adheres better without a primer than with.


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