# Exterior prime and paint



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Talking with a friend & fellow paperhanger who is so slow that he's bidding on an exterior paint job. 

He's heard from another who paints regularly (name withheld to protect the guilty :whistling2: ) that the common theory today is to prime new or raw wood with oil, apply coat of latex primer over the oil, and then finish with latex (I would assume acrylic)

My old school teaching was oil primer over raw wood, but the finish acrylic would go directly onto that - no intermediate coat of latex primer.

If this "new school" approach is commonplace, can someone give reasons for it or at least the theory behind it ?

thanks,

-Bill


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bill

No need for the latex prime coat. Oil primer and good quality acrylic over the top.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Bill
> 
> No need for the latex prime coat. Oil primer and good quality acrylic over the top.



I agree also with Scott's statement


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Thanks guys,

I'll pass that on unless someone else promotes what he had heard about oil primer > latex primer > latex finish

nice to hear SOME things haven't changed in the last 15 years.

-Bill


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

If people want two top coats - I always substitute the first coat of paint for a coat of tinted 100% acrylic latex primer. I find that this better seals the entire home - so I spot prime the bare wood with oil primer - then go over the entire surface with a latex primer - and then a finish coat. Trust me it works a ton better in New England - much less susceptible to peeling and blistering. Latex paint can stick, but doesn't 'seal'. Getting a latex exterior primer/sealer will allow the topcoat of paint to stick to a surface below it that is totally sealed off. I tried this technique on a few 'problem' homes that peel with each painter - and it doesn't peel at all.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I disagree on the double prime. I would far prefer two topcoats of acrylic as it creates a better shell that is more uv and weather resistant, which primer is not. One coat of oil primer is all the primer you need.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

daArch said:


> He's heard from another who paints regularly (name withheld to protect the guilty :whistling2: ) that the common theory today is to prime new or raw wood with oil, apply coat of latex primer over the oil, and then finish with latex (I would assume acrylic)


He should stop listening to Another Who Paints Regularly
There is no such common theory, by any stretch of the imagination
Another Who Paints Regularly should stop watching DIYNetwork television shows for his painting application theory



daArch said:


> If this "new school" approach is commonplace, can someone give reasons for it or at least the theory behind it ?


Another theory is that Another Who Paints Regularly is just making zhit up


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Another theory is that Another Who Paints Regularly is just making zhit up


Another Who Paints Regularly = Paint Guru?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DAMN, you guyz have no idea how hard I'm laughing at the comments being made about "Another Who Paints Regularly".

AND no it ain't the booger. I'll make sure Another Who Paints Regularly knows what's been said, hopefully he was misquoted. 

too funny


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Bill, I didn't tell Roger to latex prime over the oil primer. It was miscommunicated. I can easily assume that the amount of pharmaceuticals ingested between the both of us that it wasn't hard to do. So there.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I had feeling he misunderstood. But damn it was a good thread while it lasted. and you know me, I only know the rumors I spread

:thumbup:


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## polakthepainter (Jan 29, 2008)

*exterior paint*

Just recently i started some exterior projects myself and I went to sherwin williams and they gave me a free sample of "Duration(latex) self priming" exterior paint, hey that's what they called it. Anyways, with this paint you suppose to apply 2 coats over bear wood and it should cover and last, well it did and it did a pretty good job, although more expensive ($40 and up per gallon) it does save time and labour...try it out.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

polakthepainter said:


> although more expensive ($40 and up per gallon) it does save time and labour...


Jeepers, I must be talking to the wrong people. Now a days $40 a gallon don't sound "more expensive"

Last winter one of those I talk to was wondering who was going to first break the $100.00 a gallon barrier. Well now, many have. And when I saw this same guy last week he was telling me how a quart of the Fallow and Ball paint he was using was $32/quart BEFORE shipping from the UK. Now THAT'S "more expensive" :jester:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> Jeepers, I must be talking to the wrong people. Now a days $40 a gallon don't sound "more expensive"
> 
> Last winter one of those I talk to was wondering who was going to first break the $100.00 a gallon barrier. Well now, many have. And when I saw this same guy last week he was telling me how a quart of the Fallow and Ball paint he was using was $32/quart BEFORE shipping from the UK. Now THAT'S "more expensive" :jester:



I can get F & B in downtown Chicago for 88$ gallon and your right I think its 33 a qt.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I asked the painter why he couldn't get it in gallons, he made me think it was not available, maybe they were having "shipping" problems. 

I didn't question what he said too much. For once I wasn't in a mood to give him the third degree :jester: 

Or maybe he wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise, as usual


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## Alex PCI (Jul 26, 2007)

.....not to discredit any old timers but yall should really look into the technology of todays paints. Duration, Permanizer, Manor Hall.....etc are all self priming coatings that save time and material. I often see old timers complaining about under bidders when in fact they fail to use new products that were designed to save time and money and provide profit. Priming raw wood with primer is almost a thing of the past......almost like using oil paints in general. I saw a guy the other day brushing all the siding on a house, he also did all his book work on a journal and ledger and listend to am radio.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

There may be 'self' priming paints on the market that you think are the cat's meow. But the truth is, everything that goes into these paints to make it a 'paint' do nothing for the performance in the 'sealer' ability. Not saying they are bad products. But I'd definitely approach the customer with two different prices and make them understand that the latter 'cheaper' method is still very young and untested compared to more stalwart ways of prepping. 

But most of this is irrelevent anyways - I haven't been able to sell a 2-coat paint job in over 4 years now - and niether has any of my competition. So what do you really lose in priming bare wood with a primer anyways, if you are only going to topcoat with one coat of paint?


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Some of Another Who Paints Regularly's work:


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## paint_booger (Jul 1, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Another Who Paints Regularly = Paint Guru?


A running theme with Vermont. Hmmm?

2 primer coats is rediculous.

Ans I like the pics Slick!:thumbup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For new interior construction, I like two coats of primer on raw wood or mdf that is not pre-primed. 

For exterior, I find that exterior wood gets solid stain and the composite materials are pre-finished with the first coat of stain or paint. Most stuff will at least be up pre-primed in new construction. For repaint exteriors, it seems that when primer is needed, it usually needs to block tannins and other bleed through, so the Duration style products are not the right "primer" for the job. Still need oil for that. 

As far as brushing exteriors, after hearing stories from homeowners who have had there cars painted by the neighbors painters, hearing about painters who have had to buff off cars parked a half mile away, car lots hit with paint from a couple miles away, I am not sure spraying exterior is always advisable. When ever I have watched an exterior being sprayed, there is usually one drop cloth down by the sprayed and they are relying on a shield, not masking off windows, shudders, concrete, etc. That is NOT the way to go.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I have sprayed and backbrushed homes - and always chose pretty calm days, but sometimes you get a rash of wind, and you gotta keep working - which means guys get to brush everything. And not to mention - there have been times where I sprayed, and some wind would pick up, or I'd notice the overspraying going for a 'joyride' around corners - and wondered if indeed in some small way - that paint spray is making it's way to some neigbor's car an 1/8th mile away - yet nobody is the smarter to make the connection? Spraying still makes me nervous - and I always turn the pressure way way down - working in suburban areas with dense forest growths between properties sure goes a long way in protection.


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

Gentleman,

I will avoid the discussion of Decorating vs Preserving and cut to the chase. In seven years of exteriors, with a few rare exceptions, latex has out performed no matter how it is used or misused. For wood siding/fences/windows and doors; seal the knots and then use your favorite latex 2 or 3 coat system.


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## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

SeipJere said:


> Gentleman,
> 
> I will avoid the discussion of Decorating vs Preserving and cut to the chase. In seven years of exteriors, with a few rare exceptions, latex has out performed no matter how it is used or misused. For wood siding/fences/windows and doors; seal the knots and then use your favorite latex 2 or 3 coat system.


Are you referring to latex primer? If so, what were the exceptions?


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

I only use primers now for stains. For the older homes with bare spots I use 2 coats of Duration. If I were to price it 1 coat primer 2 coats paint I wouldnt get 1 job around here. For those that say the tried and true method is the best then why are all these houses being painted over and over again. Oil sucks in every single way I can think of performance, cleanup, smell and only does better then latex in blocking stains and can look better on interior trim.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I only use oil for tannin bleed on cedar outside that's it. Inside for water stains.


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

Capital city is spot on, except perhaps he's over stating the case a little.

Sorry about the two+ months off. We just had 4 times the normal amount of rain for the region. I (we) managed to stay on schedule and keep everyone happy.(large-exteriors, small company). 

To Boman, again, sorry for the delayed response; The most common exceptions are when budget or plans rule out a full over-haul (from oil), when the oil is performing well just needs TLC, when priming over "fresh" window puddy, anywhere you need to rust proof; anywhere surface hardness and abrasion resistance trump all else (i.e. heavy use doors, railings, trim...that get the hell beat out of them by people more than weather). and maybe over some really sappy woods (questionable...case by case); 

Generally, if you've done your prep right, you can save the third coat for critical areas only (where water may pool, flat sills, pronounced molding tops...poor drainage, or etc.), and for repeat business (if you're still at it) years down the road. 

If you haven't yet switched to latex, just ask around (any brands) you will be amazed at how well it out performs on exterior wood. And all the new lines that I've used this year are some of the best paints ever made. When your moisture meter kacks out, relax, they're way more "flexible".

(P.S. I love: oils, epoxies,boiled linseed, Polly-Urethanes, Shellac etc. Just not anywhere a new generation waterborne should be.)

Have to run,

All the best, and a happy Canadian thanksgiving to all,

Jeremiah.

P.S. (Good luck with the election)


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

P.S. (Good luck with the election)


God help us all


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## cullybear (Mar 10, 2008)

Dont complain about getting underbid when you are brushing siding. We spray 90% of ours which we can do 3 times faster than brushing and charge 25% less than you and clear twice as much. Hint mask well and turn the pressure way down


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

james187 said:


> This site has good price for many products. I have used it many time.


DUDE CHILL WITH THE SPAMMMMMM


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

*Goodnight and goodluck...*

Just thought I would pop in and wrap up my "threads"; Since I can't send anyone a bill for my time on here I expect I'll be spending the time (when I have it) updating my own site rather than logging on here. That said, I'm sure I won't be missed, and if anyone wants a truly independant opinion (unlike all the sales reps, con artists and phonies who infiltrate every thread see Captain Tape N Spray for the nearest example:blink, 

feel free to drop me a line on my site: 

 htttp://www.alliedpainting.com.html :thumbup:

If it's in earnest I'll try to respond asap...

All the best to the few gents on here who have actually earned their stripes.

Sincerly,

Seip.


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## captainblando (Aug 8, 2010)

funny I use alkyd primer with acrylic topcoats. no problems and I see problems with latex primer(exterior) and new wood tends not to have problems for quite some time..


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> There may be 'self' priming paints on the market that you think are the cat's meow. But the truth is, everything that goes into these paints to make it a 'paint' do nothing for the performance in the 'sealer' ability. Not saying they are bad products. But I'd definitely approach the customer with two different prices and make them understand that the latter 'cheaper' method is still very young and untested compared to more stalwart ways of prepping.
> 
> But most of this is irrelevent anyways - I haven't been able to sell a 2-coat paint job in over 4 years now - and niether has any of my competition. So what do you really lose in priming bare wood with a primer anyways, if you are only going to topcoat with one coat of paint?


The problem i have Dan with one top coat is it never covers the primer.I can never get the paint store to get close enough to the finish color it seems.Thats why ive always liked solid oils,two coats and your done.As far as self priming latex....an absolute crock.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

I was taught to use oil primer. I've been using SW ext oil primer and topcoating with one coat Duration Extra White. The coverage is pretty good. I have a bid on a church. They want to change the color. I plan on tinting the primer to the finish color and one coating over the oil with Duration. Hope it works. I prime ALL Exterior oil surfaces with oil primer to give a dry,flat substrate for the latex topcoat to adhere to. I have used latex primer but prefer oil.
There is a painter in my area that underbidded my dad years ago on a job by half. I have seen his jobs fail after 3 years. Packing one or two coats of latex finish over bare wood is a joke. The customers get sold on these cheap jobs by a good salesmen who promises them the same results. I guess it only has to look great till you get the check!


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

I honestly cannot remember the last time I used oil primer on the exterior of a house.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

This is a three year old thread.


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

Why is self priming latex an absolute crock? I want to use it if it isn't, so if you have concrete reasoning behind the statement I'd appreciate reading it. 



Rick the painter said:


> The problem i have Dan with one top coat is it never covers the primer.I can never get the paint store to get close enough to the finish color it seems.Thats why ive always liked solid oils,two coats and your done.As far as self priming latex....an absolute crock.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Okay Breathe, We paint a lot of 20-25 yr old homes that were built with cedar clapboards. Latex paints or stains applied over bare wood break down and roll off the wood,,especially at the bottom of the board where moisture stays the longest.Tannin also bleeds thru it like crazy,and finish coats look uneven and blotchy compared to oil- primed siding.


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## Peter01 (Apr 27, 2011)

Hello there,I am totally agree with the DeanV view about the interior and exterior paint of wood and cars.The way of treatment by dean is quite good and applicable.


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

*2014 Update*

2014 Update

Turns out that (1) High quality urethanes and (2) old fashioned, slow drying, "long-chain" oils [primers / and or paints -- which generally haven't been available in Canada for years] are much, much better choices on vertical wood surfaces. (Where rain, snow, ice, and morning dew regularly wet the surface for prolonged periods of time.)

Because even the best premium acrylic latexes (to date) tend to become too soft (and easily peeled) when they've been thoroughly soaked -- unlike alkyd resins -- I now advocate either (1) a (good thick) coat of water-born-alkyd primer on sills and flat casing / molding / trim tops; or (2) a (good thick) coat of a high quality water-born / latex stain to help out.

And Urethane-floor-enamels take the longevity-durability-cake on porch floors... (2 porches I built 10 years ago, where the first coat was thinned a touch with boiled-linseed-oil, are still holding up great; i.e. aside from heavy traffic wear.)

___________________________


Going forward: I expect someone will offer a water-based, slow-drying-long-chain oil / Urethane-like resin to target the high-end craftsman market. (The chemistry is probably already on the shelf, they just need to be blended, tested and tweaked for general exterior wood use...) 

(They'll outperform conventional latex-acrylics in top-coat durability, but because they may be more fussy and troublesome to work with; i.e. niche-market, for high-end veterans, but too much trouble for the average joe...) 


PS: If you Yanks would send some good folks to Congress every now and then we'd sure appreciate it. :blink:


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

We need better lobbyists, they tell the congress what to do.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

So this is like a double necro thread. 

I use Porter's Acrylic bonding primer for 99% of my exterior priming needs. It has some oil in it. Brush always needs a quick dip in thinner after a water bath to clean it properly.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

daren said:


> So this is like a double necro thread.
> 
> I use Porter's Acrylic bonding primer for 99% of my exterior priming needs. It has some oil in it. Brush always needs a quick dip in thinner after a water bath to clean it properly.


Acri-sheild?, that's what I normally use too, it is more expensive than the Acri-sheild paint which I don't understand.


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## servais1 (Oct 12, 2012)

long oil for exterior! Stay away from shorts like coverstain for outside!


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

servais1 said:


> long oil for exterior! Stay away from shorts like coverstain for outside!


Why? I just primed a bunch of cedar shakes with cover stain, and going to top coat with flat weathergaurd. It'll last 10 years easily

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


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## Paintinglife (Sep 13, 2012)

Lol, your friend has sniffed to much of the fumes! JK! 
Oil primer then latex top coat is all that's required. Nothing is gained by the addition of the intermediate coat.
Then again many of todays premium coatings will cover the substrate without the need for priming it. Sherwin Williams Duration is a good choice.


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## Paintinglife (Sep 13, 2012)

Dean there is NO WAY that spray will travel 1/2 a mile or a couple miles, let alone adhere to a surface that far away! 
Spraying and back rolling exteriors is the way to go. It's quicker, cleaner and provides an even film build. Shielding in experienced hands is no big deal although I prefer to mask windows. Plus it yields a higher profit as a result of time savings.


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