# Tacky or Not



## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

I had a contractor a couple of months ago call me about RRP. In the conversation, he mentioned quoting on a 7,000+ square foot 1941 home. Paint walls only. He desperately needed the job.

Of course, painting walls doesn't disturb paint, so RRP wasn't really going to be needed. However, I told him to do a 3 min to 5 min presentation on RRP in a very light way and include what the actual law says ...

_On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA ... _

He got the job. He has been doing this on all pre-1978 homes where he is just painting the walls and has all of a sudden been getting more and more jobs.

Seems people want to be legal, especially when it doesn't cost them that much extra, if any.

He stresses the legality, that he is certified and then has a competitive quote, sometimes higher than others (but not by a bunch), because in reality no RRP is going to be required. Long story short, he is using it as a sales tool to beat the non-certified contractors even though he won't have to do compliance.

Half of me is going "_was I ethical to suggest this strategy to him_" and the other demon side of me is saying "_pay back to the non-certified for all those other jobs he was losing because of higher price_".

Your opinion?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Well, according to the EPA, if he has any repair work on the walls that requires sanding (above the deminimus), or just pole sands the surface layer, he would need to do full compliance even if the lead paint is 10 layers down. 

Only if the walls are in excellent shape can wall painting be done without RRP. Most 1941 walls around here are not in excellent shape.

I did a lead test on some trim. Apparently the lead layers are the first layer of primer and possibly the next two layers of paint, then a couple layers of non-lead paint (based on where the color change happens quickly). If I wanted to sand the trim to scuff the oil, I would need to comply even though the lead layers are down further. I think some also said lead can migrate through the paint layers???

From a letter of the law approach, it is a no-go. This is based on phone conversations with the EPA office in Chicago.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Well, according to the EPA, if he has any repair work on the walls that requires sanding (above the deminimus), or just pole sands the surface layer, he would need to do full compliance even if the lead paint is 10 layers down.
> 
> Only if the walls are in excellent shape can wall painting be done without RRP. Most 1941 walls around here are not in excellent shape.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say above, but I am asking where the 6 sq ft per room is stayed under. In other words, legally, he doesn't have to do RRP.

He looks at the job. Decides RRP doesn't apply (for whatever reason), but tells folks ... _On or after April 22, 2010, no firm may perform, offer, or claim to perform renovations without certification from EPA_ ... 

Of course, the homeowner could add to the job and it may cause RRP to apply, but under the situation described (non RRP jobs) is it tacky or just a gray area?


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I say it's fine Dean. I don't do it with repeat customers. If I see no compliance necessary I don't even mention it-they don't want to hear it anyway. For new customers I will mention it, but _not_ make a big deal out of it as to scare them, and see their reaction. The EPA certainly isn't doing much to help us make the general public aware and follow the regs. The reality is that the firm should be certified, because what if something unforeseen comes up during the project, which quite often it can. I truly believe you should be certified to do paint work in pre-1978 homes regardless of whether you intend to "disturb" or not. Contractors need to be aware of the potential for disturbance and what the limits are-if they are not certified they most likely are to some extent ignorant of the potential risks and problems both from a health standpoint and a legal one. I don't think the guy who is not certified is telling them "we are NOT certified and be aware we can NOT do any disturbance should the need arise."
Depending on the customer it can be a helpful selling tool or a quick end to a possible project.
I am still waiting for a customer to ask me if I am certified, hasn't happened yet. In fact not one customer I have mentioned it too was aware of the regs. Most do have some understanding of the dangers of lead, but few realize working in their home could expose them and their families to potentially dangers levels.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Isn't presenting the booklet mandatory ( and the signed confirmation) whether you need to do RRP or not on target homes?
And can the booklet be presented as a link on line, as long as they sign off that they received it? 
I have been assuming both are true.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree with Cliff the biggest hurdle to getting customers to understand you aren't there to scare them. I just today visited a large exterior, every chip I got my hands on contained lead. 

Giving them a booklet doesn't raise the fear like addressing it during bid time. I stopped discussing it in length and just have wordage that I am a certified RRP firm, and it will be done according to EPA standards. 

Interiors repaints that are occupied and require a ton of dust I turn down flat. It is way to expensive to be compliment indoors. Exteriors may add a couple hundred to your cost once your equipment is paid for.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Interesting- I think interiors are much more controllable- but I am not equipped (nor do ) exteriors.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> Isn't presenting the booklet mandatory ( and the signed confirmation) whether you need to do RRP or not on target homes?
> And can the booklet be presented as a link on line, as long as they sign off that they received it?
> I have been assuming both are true.


 Rob, it is my understanding that the booklet and the conversation is only necessary if you "disturb"(renovate) more than 6 sq. feet. As far as I am aware non-RRP certified guys (painters) can work in pre-1978 homes all they want as long as there is no more than 6 sq. ft. of disturbance.
Deans question was- is it unethical for a RRP certified guy to claim(to a potential customer) it is unlawful to work in a pre-1978 home even if there is *no* intention of disturbance? It's a little exploitation of the grey area.
Two of the larger painting companies in my market are not RRP certified. The majority of homes in this area are all pre-1978.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Hmm. Going to let Dean call this one. I have taken to the habit of doing the booklet ( particularly with new customers) just so that maybe on the next project i need to do it, they have been informed all along.

Which makes the ethical question more of one of education of a homeowner to the situation with their "target " home, not just based on that one job. I personally think it is not only ethical- but necessary.


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## Dean CRCNA (Feb 4, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> Isn't presenting the booklet mandatory ( and the signed confirmation) whether you need to do RRP or not on target homes?
> And can the booklet be presented as a link on line, as long as they sign off that they received it?
> I have been assuming both are true.


Presenting the booklet and getting the signed receipt is only necessary if the job falls under RRP (or LSHR (HUD))

Presenting the booklet and getting the signed receipt can be done on the day you start the job ... if you want.

You can email the booklet or have them read it online as long as you get the signed receipt.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

We email the bid with the pdf. brochure and also include our Lead Addendum which outlines all of the precautions that we'll be taking, there may be an add cost associated with these precautions and we list that on this addendum.

In order for us to proceed with the job the client must sign both the contract and the lead addendum. The signature on the addendum acknowledges two things: 1)that they have read and understand the Right to Renovate Brochure and 2) that they understand the precautions that we will take.

At the job's completion we send a copy of the signed Lead Addendum back to the client. This can be kept for their records that we performed the precautions and is of course required by the RRP.


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