# Opinion Please



## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I did not strip this, but I know the person used Peel Away. It’s been many years since I’ve used Peel Away. So, I’m asking the question. Since I’m seeing all unstained wood, is it most certain the wood was never stained? This elevator dates from at least 1890, possibly from 1847.











It was the first sideways elevator in North America


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fauxlynn said:


> I did not strip this, but I know the person used Peel Away. It’s been many years since I’ve used Peel Away. So, I’m asking the question. Since I’m seeing all unstained wood, is it most certain the wood was never stained? This elevator dates from at least 1890, possibly from 1847.
> View attachment 104501
> 
> It was the first sideways elevator in North America


Could you clarify your question please... What work are you considering for elevator? 

BTW - That is really beautiful craftsmanship.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

What I am asking is-do you think since the peel away took off the paint and underneath the wood is not stained, would it be a likely conclusion that the wood was never initially stained? Or did the peel away probably remove the stain as well?


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Yes it’s a stunning building.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)




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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

It’s been a long time since I used stripper of any kind, but I’m thinking it’s never been stained. If memory serves, at least some stain would remain and have to be removed by sanding.

Keep in mind this opinion may be worth exactly what I’m charging for it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> It’s been a long time since I used stripper of any kind, but I’m thinking it’s never been stained. If memory serves, at least some stain would remain and have to be removed by sanding.
> 
> Keep in mind this opinion may be worth exactly what I’m charging for it.
> 
> ...


It’s what I was thinking too. I’m trying to come up with a plan for the elevator and we thought originally we should not paint it. But seeing as it may have started out being painted, maybe that’s an OK option. I just want it to be stunning to match the rest of the building. My first thought was to stain it.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

From that period and style and being white oak it was likely colored at one time utilizing an oxidizing reagent, possibly potassium dichromate aka bichromate of potash or even a natural dye-stuff such as van **** crystals, but not a stain as we know them today. Copperas was another common period treatment for white oak as was fuming which became popular in the later part of the 19th century.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> From that period and style and being white oak it was likely colored at one time utilizing an oxidizing reagent, possibly potassium dichromate aka bichromate of potash or even a natural dye-stuff such as van **** crystals, but not a stain as we know them today. Copperas was another common period treatment for white oak as was fuming which became popular in the later part of the 19th century.



OK you’re killing me, ha ha. Why do you think it’s white oak? I mean as usual my pictures are not the greatest. Everything else is mahogany as you can see. I’m not trying to be snotty I just made an assumption that it was also mahogany. The building underwent an extensive renovation in 1890, that’s probably when the elevator went in. I mean is there a reason why they would’ve used a different wood in the elevator?

Edit-But more importantly because of the grandeur and style do you agree it would’ve been stained? Also, this is not necessarily a true restoration back to the original. I have been unable to locate photographs of the original. I have no idea what it look like before except that it had many layers of white paint


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> It’s what I was thinking too. I’m trying to come up with a plan for the elevator and we thought originally we should not paint it. But seeing as it may have started out being painted, maybe that’s an OK option. I just want it to be stunning to match the rest of the building. My first thought was to stain it.


Are there any old pictures of this elevator? You may be able to see if it was painted by looking very closely at the intricate carving. When was it stripped?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fauxlynn said:


> OK you’re killing me, ha ha. Why do you think it’s white oak? I mean as usual my pictures are not the greatest. Everything else is mahogany as you can see. I’m not trying to be snotty I just made an assumption that it was also mahogany. The building underwent an extensive renovation in 1890, that’s probably when the elevator went in. I mean is there a reason why they would’ve used a different wood in the elevator?
> 
> Edit-But more importantly because of the grandeur and style do you agree it would’ve been stained? Also, this is not necessarily a true restoration back to the original. I have been unable to locate photographs of the original. I have no idea what it look like before except that it had many layers of white paint


From your pics the light colored spots on the cove looked like medullary rays also know as ray fleck which is inherent to quartersawn white oak and not mahogany...after looking at it closer it seems like it’s residual paint from the removal and not figure??? Also, if Peel Away 1 were used on mahogany the alkalinity would have turned the mahogany a deeper iodine color. Lye/caustic soda was also a traditional treatment for darkening mahogany. 


All the period treatments I mentioned work equally as well on mahogany. 

YES! I’m in agreement with coloring the wood, and yes, it would have likely been darker.

Beautiful place by-the-way..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Curious. Why do you need to know whether it was stained or not.. Are you considering restaining it?
To Completely strip that to a stain ready surface seems futile. Frustrating at the least. 
Could you just white wash it or paint it a flat white..

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

What the hell is a “sideways” elevator? Is it like the glass one in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory?


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I was thinking white oak but probably mahogany like the other woodwork. It doesn't appear to have been stained and if it was the stripper appears to have removed it or bleached it out.

I would by all means clean it up and stain it. Lot more work left to strip it. ALL of the residual paint needs to come off to make a stainable surface. All the detail work will have to be cleaned with brushes, knives, screwdrivers, q-tips, bronze wool, scrubbing pads, ice pics, carving tools, dremel tools, sandpaper and a couple gallon of solvent. I have stripped painted detailed mahogany before and it does seem futile at times. The final result will make it worthwhile. This kind of work is in high demand where historical houses are being restored. Good luck with your project!


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> Are there any old pictures of this elevator? You may be able to see if it was painted by looking very closely at the intricate carving. When was it stripped?


It was stripped two weeks ago. I thought they would've done a complete job, but nope. I cannot find any historical pictures of the property which is odd because it was a big deal in it's day.





Alchemy Redux said:


> ......if Peel Away 1 were used on mahogany the alkalinity would have turned the mahogany a deeper iodine color. Lye/caustic soda was also a traditional treatment for darkening mahogany.
> 
> All the period treatments I mentioned work equally as well on mahogany.
> 
> YES! I’m in agreement with coloring the wood, and yes, it would have likely been darker.


I always learn something from you. Thank you. I'm glad you agree.



finishesbykevyn said:


> Curious. Why do you need to know whether it was stained or not.. Are you considering restaining it?
> To Completely strip that to a stain ready surface seems futile. Frustrating at the least.
> Could you just white wash it or paint it a flat white..


I was surprised that it seems it wasn't stained originally when you consider the opulence of the rest of the building. If you spend money on mahogany, why would anyone paint it?. I'm trying to remain true to the character and history of the building. Nothing futile about that. However, if it were determined the original was painted, then I could consider that as an option.



RH said:


> What the hell is a “sideways” elevator? Is it like the glass one in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory?


 Well I figured you don't need to hear me whine about my pictures being sideways again. If you want it to be like Willie Wonka, that's fine. 




Tprice2193 said:


> I was thinking white oak but probably mahogany like the other woodwork. It doesn't appear to have been stained and if it was the stripper appears to have removed it or bleached it out.
> 
> I would by all means clean it up and stain it. Lot more work left to strip it. ALL of the residual paint needs to come off to make a stainable surface. All the detail work will have to be cleaned with brushes, knives, screwdrivers, q-tips, bronze wool, scrubbing pads, ice pics, carving tools, dremel tools, sandpaper and a couple gallon of solvent. I have stripped painted detailed mahogany before and it does seem futile at times. The final result will make it worthwhile. This kind of work is in high demand where historical houses are being restored. Good luck with your project!


Yeah, I'm excited about this for sure. I was told the stripping was complete, so I was a bit surprised at the status when I went to discuss the project. I know it'll take me 2-3 days to get it 100% ready. I've stripped everything in my 100 year old house, so I've got all the dental tools, etc. The present owners have done a good job so far doing things the right way.Cha ching.

Anyway. Thanks for the advice. As usual, you guys are very helpful.Hopefully the owners won't keel over at the price tag and I can proceed.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

A lot of times those older elevators with wood interiors don’t meet current code for flame spread and smoke development indexes and are often painted over with intumescent paint.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> A lot of times those older elevators with wood interiors don’t meet current code for flame spread and smoke development indexes and are often painted over with intumescent paint.


Hmmmm. This building is occupied. I guess I should at least ask about the fire code. It's being used as commercial space now and won some Preservation award. But that all happened before they stripped it.

Why can't anything ever be easy?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fauxlynn said:


> Hmmmm. This building is occupied. I guess I should at least ask about the fire code. It's being used as commercial space now and won some Preservation award. But that all happened before they stripped it.
> 
> Why can't anything ever be easy?


It was just a hunch as to why the elevator car was painted and everything else wasn’t thinking It could have been coated with an intumescent paint due to flame spread index ratings of the underlying solid wood. There are however clears that perform a similar function which I’m not too familiar with. 

I’ve finished several new elevator car installations in residential single family dwellings and have only limited knowledge of the flame spread indexes and codes as they apply locally. A few I’ve done were not constructed to standards but weren’t called out by building inspectors, elevators servicing multiple occupant dwellings falling under a whole different level of scrutiny. The flame spread index here for elevator interiors excludes class C FSR building materials...only class B or better..0-75 FSR...which pretty much excludes the use of most solid wood species. It’s probably something worth looking into just to CYA.

A buddy of mine got called out by a fire inspector on a recent project having to re-coat everything with an intumescent clear varnish to meet local code. Better to find out in advance than having to deal with it later. Yes, nothing’s ever easy...


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## edfence (Jun 1, 2019)

That is beautiful craftsmanship! They just don't make them like they used to ...


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

This is an opinion (you did ask for opinions). The antique elevators I've seen had cast bronze panels.









It could be that these carved wood panels were originally covered with gold or bronze leaf to mimic the bronze castings either for cost or weight. 

The leaf could pull off fairly easily and it would expose the wood with no paint in the pores.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

What is this peel away u speak of...and why have I not heard of such fairy dust?!


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

PPD said:


> What is this peel away u speak of...and why have I not heard of such fairy dust?!


IDK it’s been around a long time. It’s exspensive but works. http://m.dumondchemicals.com/pro-peel-away-1.html


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

fauxlynn said:


> IDK it’s been around a long time. It’s exspensive but works. http://m.dumondchemicals.com/pro-peel-away-1.html


The stuff is awesome. But, I do not think it is available in Massachusetts anymore. New regs and almost all of the strippers that I used to be able to purchase a no longer on the shelf.

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> The stuff is awesome. But, I do not think it is available in Massachusetts anymore. New regs and almost all of the strippers that I used to be able to purchase a no longer on the shelf.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


My home brew recipe for Peel Away 1 clone...please don’t go trying this at home...
Gallon Formula:
4.5 lbs type s hydrated lime...cost $2.25
1 lb lye...cost $3.70
3 qts tap water...free
Cost to purchase 5 gallons of Peel Away 1..$150
Cost to make 5 gallons...$30


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

1. Well yeah, Massachusetts . ( I love Massachusetts )
2. Can PT handle TWO hillbilly labs?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Packard said:


> This is an opinion (you did ask for opinions). The antique elevators I've seen had cast bronze panels.
> 
> It could be that these carved wood panels were originally covered with gold or bronze leaf to mimic the bronze castings either for cost or weight.
> 
> The leaf could pull off fairly easily and it would expose the wood with no paint in the pores.


Are you sure that's bronze? Looks, for all the world, like brass. Bronze is not usually so bright and golden looking.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> My home brew recipe for Peel Away 1 clone...please don’t go trying this at home...
> Gallon Formula:
> 4.5 lbs type s hydrated lime...cost $2.25
> 1 lb lye...cost $3.70
> ...


REALLY! Do not try this at home! Pretty nasty stuff to be mixing as a DIY project. I'll keep charging customers for premix, thanks.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PPD said:


> What is this peel away u speak of...and why have I not heard of such fairy dust?!


 FAIRY DUST??? Nope!
I just used it this summer for the first and last time. I HATED IT! It uses copious amounts of water, Peeling it away was not as easy as advertised and for my money it did not work nearly as well as the older strippers we were once able to purchase. The neutralizer is pretty nasty too. One ends up thoroughly soaking the wood TWICE. I found the whole process messy and the amount of material that piled up was pretty onerous. I'll never touch the stuff again!


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> 1. Well yeah, Massachusetts . ( I love Massachusetts )
> 2. Can PT handle TWO hillbilly labs?


Why not?:surprise:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

jennifertemple said:


> REALLY! Do not try this at home! Pretty nasty stuff to be mixing as a DIY project. I'll keep charging customers for premix, thanks.


Many knowledge multi-generational finishers such as myself perceive products such as Peel Away and many of the products used today as DIY gimmicks, lye and hydrated lime having historical roots in finishing. Lye has been used almost daily in my finishing operations, for bleaching & tempering wood before dying, as well as for other applications. Some might appreciate and have a use for the information provided. Last time I checked, this forum is for professionals and not DIYers so I would expect professionals trying this to exercise precautions outlined on the SDS’s.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Many knowledge multi-generational finishers such as myself perceive products such as Peel Away and many of the products used today as DIY gimmicks, lye and hydrated lime having historical roots in finishing. Lye has been used almost daily in my finishing operations, for bleaching & tempering wood before dying, as well as for other applications. Some might appreciate and have a use for the information provided. Last time I checked, this forum is for professionals and not DIYers so I would expect professionals trying this to exercise precautions outlined on the SDS’s.


This is unrelated to the topic but The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho is one of my favorites books.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> This is unrelated to the topic but The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho is one of my favorites books.


You’re actually the second person in the past couple of weeks that made mention of Paulo Coelho’s Alchemist. One of my vendors handed me a printout of the abstract, highly suggesting that I read it, the book being his favorite too. Designers and architects have always affectionately referred to me as an Alchemist because I’d often make my own finishes out of raw ingredients, many of which are based on alchemical principles.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Alchemy Redux said:


> You’re actually the second person in the past couple of weeks that made mention of Paulo Coelho’s Alchemist. One of my vendors handed me a printout of the abstract, highly suggesting that I read it, the book being his favorite too. Designers and architects have always affectionately referred to me as an Alchemist because I’d often make my own finishes out of raw ingredients, many of which are based on alchemical principles.


The audiobook is fantastic. It features actor Jeremy Irons as the narrator.

https://www.audiobooks.net/audiobook/alchemist/205100


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> The audiobook is fantastic. It features actor Jeremy Irons as the narrator.
> 
> https://www.audiobooks.net/audiobook/alchemist/205100


Thanks. I just ordered one up. Looking forward to it.

Just a note on Alchemy:

Alchemy pre-dates modern day chemistry. A lot of the components used in today’s finishes were developed by alchemists during Europe’s middle period and were available at the local apothecary. 

Redux means brought back or revived. Alchemy is the transformation of inexpensive raw materials into something of value. My finishing principles are based on old methods which I and others like me have re-introduced, some of which resulted in finishing trends...thus Alchemy Redux..


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Thanks. I just ordered one up. Looking forward to it.
> 
> Just a note on Alchemy:
> 
> ...


I always thought your online name was attributed to the fact you has to redo (redux) many of your concoctions before they were satisfactory for use!:biggrin:


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Thanks. I just ordered one up. Looking forward to it.
> 
> Just a note on Alchemy:
> 
> ...




Its been SO hard to learn old methods of finishing! Its all been traded in for connivence, but at a large cost of authenticity & beauty- I’m lookin @ u acrylic plasters....

Its why I travelled all the way to Florida to train on plaster...after searching for someone to teach me the old methods for 2 years all I found were retired finishers or schools that taught the method of faux effects or modern masters acrylic plaster.

Pierre Finklesteins books where my life blood in learning to use oil base & pigment dispersion to make product & found some very old faux books on eBay that also sit proud in my collection at the shop (finishes are gaudy as hell but the recipes are invaluable)


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

If only people had continued training those of us that’r green behind the ears in old methods of toning, glazing, and tinting...imagine how much less painful the VOC restrictions would be!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

PPD said:


> If only people had continued training those of us that’r green behind the ears in old methods of toning, glazing, and tinting...imagine how much less painful the VOC restrictions would be!


Funny, I just used a similar term yesterday in conversation, describing many of the finishers in my area by referring to them as being green around the gills rather than behind the ears. I get more calls from inexperienced competitors asking me how to do things than I do calls for new leads. At times I’ve committed business suicide to some degree by divulging too much information.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Funny, I just used a similar term yesterday in conversation, describing many of the finishers in my area by referring to them as being green around the gills rather than behind the ears. I get more calls from inexperienced competitors asking me how to do things than I do calls for new leads. At times I’ve committed business suicide to some degree by divulging too much information.



Thats another problem! It took me awhile to finally figure out why I was getting so many doors shut in my face. 

A very kind & honest finisher finally said “your asking me to teach you methods that keep me busy so you can then become my competition...thats a big ask with no reward.”

Even ron (my plaster mentor) told me he was only willing to train me because we live on opposite coasts & he’d not be willing to give up 30+ years of knowledge n experience to someone who would then take his business.

All I could think was “but these methods are dying & if you don’t teach someone then there’s going to be no one left that knows how to do it!”My way of thinking isn’t very popular it seems. 

I share openly & have no issue telling another professional what I’d do, always assuming its like baking a cake. You can have the secret recipe.... but without the skill & basic knowledge on variable control it can still be a disaster. 

That thinking may change after competing for business as long as those I approached have though....may be that green behind the gills speaking *cough.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

PPD said:


> Thats another problem! It took me awhile to finally figure out why I was getting so many doors shut in my face.
> 
> A very kind & honest finisher finally said “your asking me to teach you methods that keep me busy so you can then become my competition...thats a big ask with no reward.”
> 
> ...


I committed business suicide to a degree by being paid as an independent finish design consultant for a couple of architectural & design firms. One of the projects was actually out in your neck of the woods up in Martis Camp in the Tahoe region. I’d pretty much be guaranteed the work but started finding myself spec’ing out finishes and having the principals hiring inexperienced competitors to do the work. The unique finishes were pretty much my business’ life’s blood which differentiated me from the competition. By doing so I created my own competition. I started implementing non-disclosure agreements protecting what in essence is non-copy written intellectual property, restricting the information and sample sharing, the applications being project specific. It’s a dog eat dog business at times.

One thing I’ve noticed with companies like Ron’s you had mentioned, along with other niche finishing companies, many of those companies are now requiring their employees to sign off on non-compete/non-disclosure agreements. 

Keep your secrets your secrets if you’re in it to win it!


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Keep your secrets your secrets if you’re in it to win it!


Or, since you are now retired, start an academy for high end finishers. A Taliesin for finishers, of sorts.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Or, since you are now retired, start an academy for high end finishers. A Taliesin for finishers, of sorts.




YAASSSSS PLEASE CONSIDER THIS!!! The few amazing finishers that did so have stopped or passed away & its become nearly impossible to find a school that has teachers with your kind of knowledge. 

Most viable options are international & while I dream of it I haven’t yet been able to do so.

I actually JUST purchased custom made Pardon badger softener brushes from the family of Leonard Pardon a few weeks ago....they’re amazing & I got um for a steal!


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> I committed business suicide to a degree by being paid as an independent finish design consultant for a couple of architectural & design firms. One of the projects was actually out in your neck of the woods up in Martis Camp in the Tahoe region. I’d pretty much be guaranteed the work but started finding myself spec’ing out finishes and having the principals hiring inexperienced competitors to do the work. The unique finishes were pretty much my business’ life’s blood which differentiated me from the competition. By doing so I created my own competition. I started implementing non-disclosure agreements protecting what in essence is non-copy written intellectual property, restricting the information and sample sharing, the applications being project specific. It’s a dog eat dog business at times.
> 
> One thing I’ve noticed with companies like Ron’s you had mentioned, along with other niche finishing companies, many of those companies are now requiring their employees to sign off on non-compete/non-disclosure agreements.
> 
> Keep your secrets your secrets if you’re in it to win it!




That’s BRILLANT! I wish I woulda thought of a non-compete contract when I was searching....

I was getting more and more frustrated that people either wouldn’t respond or turned me down even though I was offering to do all the grunt work for free & to stay out of the way if I could only be around to watch (Am a visual learner)....

After that finisher replied I felt so dumb...it was an ah-ha moment & I couldn’t believe it hadn’t occurred to me before. No wonder no one wanted to offer to teach me these things! 

I didn’t even consider offering up a way for them to insure that they’re teachings/knowledge wouldn’t be shared with others & that I’d not compete for the same clientele or ceed a job in which we both happened to bid.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Funny, I just used a similar term yesterday in conversation, describing many of the finishers in my area by referring to them as being green around the gills rather than behind the ears. I get more calls from inexperienced competitors asking me how to do things than I do calls for new leads. At times I’ve committed business suicide to some degree by divulging too much information.


I wouldn’t have the nerve to ask a competitor how to do something. That seems like a big no-no. 
I usually know enough to figure it out. 

As far as no compete agreements, nope,nope,nope. I was asked to sign one by my former employer when he started phasing out legit employees and turning increasingly to sub contractors. Why in the hell would a sign such a thing? I didn’t sign it and he gave me work anyway. 
In the gymnastics world, which I was once a part of, the agreements limited the proximity to the gym being left and time restrictions of one or two years. Ridiculous. 

I was very fortunate to be taught by old timers. I was exposed to myriad of high end clients and finishes. When my former employer switched to mostly subs, quality declined. It was dog eat dog. Some of them focused on speed and using less costly materials. Even my friend Nikki tried to convince me doing a one step woodgrain would fool most people and I was wasting my time doing more than that. ‘The Boys’, as I called them, developed their own tricks and of course kept it a secret. 

I tend not to share in my area, but then again, I don’t need to. Many of the finishers here started at the same place. But, I do remember the maintenance superintendent, Navarro, watching me once over at KW. I got so irritated I asked him,wth? He told me the building manager told him to figure out what I was doing because I was too exspensive! Ha.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I think an employer would have a hard time holding a painter, even a highly trained specialty painter, to the terms of a non-compete clause. The courts would more than likely look at the agreement as limiting employment opportunity for the painter...something a non compete contract , by law, is not permitted to do.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I think an employer would have a hard time holding a painter, even a highly trained specialty painter, to the terms of a non-compete clause. The courts would more than likely look at the agreement as limiting employment opportunity for the painter...something a non compete contract , by law, is not permitted to do.


The non-compete clauses have pretty much become a standard on the niche finishing end of the trade. Before I had firmly committed to dissolving my biz, leaving all options open, I had been offered a hands-off management position for a line finishing operation. Part of the salaried offer included a non-compete clause. Although the offer, as generous as it was, the non-compete clause killed it, refusing to sign off on it. Same thing happened with a former employee last year when applying for a position at another firm when he left me. 

Whether enforceable or not, they tend to act as a deterrent, because who would really want to come up with the cash for attorney fees in defense of a claim by the former employer. 

Although I’m a little sketchy on the details, there was a recent local incident where a former paint company employer sought an injunction against a start-up business headed up by his former employee in violation of the non-compete. The courts denied the injunction request. So yeah, I suppose they really don’t hold water as one would think.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

A labor relations attorney friend of mine and myself have discussed non-compete clauses in the past. Not as they relate to the painting industry, but in general. He told me that the courts in general do not look favorably on non-competes and they are generally easily breached. To the point where the employee can navigate the courts with minimal legal council.

Of course if your going up against someone who is vindictive and happens to have money, I imagine they could make the process of getting out of the non-compete complicated and expensive...even if they knew they would, in the end, lose.:sad:

They probably are a better psychological than legal deterrent.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Its totally a deterrent & I think most people involved know it. If you’ve got the $ and time almost any contract breach can be won by the right lawyer n loop hole.....non disclosures being the shadier side of business I agree that their much easier to have thrown out. 

But, having experienced a 2 year legal battle in the past (personal, not business) I can attest to the excruciating pain & stress of trying to stand up for something you know is right when the person/company on the other end has unlimited resources. In all honesty- I wouldn’t do it again for a million dollars.


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