# BIN application for cabinets.



## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Starting these cabinets today . First time doing cabinets and I am fortunately in a situation where I am not real pressed for time and I have a couple doors to experiment on before I go whole hog. I going to do a couple tests this week . One with stix primer and one with BIN . I am wondering if it would work to apply the primer with a brush or mini roller and then spray the topcoat . I am very hesitant to spray BIN because I am setting up a spray booth inside the house. I don't want to explode anything . And I only have one pump and since I am spraying such small amounts of product I would rather keep the pump dedicated to waterbed finishes . As long as I prep right and sand between coats is it going to affect the final finish if I manually apply the primers? 
I would also like to hear what folks have to say about cleaning these. I am going to use dirtex or crud cutter. how do people minimize how much water/moisture gets on/into cabinets when they are cleaning them . I had a similar style wall finishing de lam and warp when I out a waterbased primer on them . Is that a concern when washing cabinets like these? getting them too wet? 

I've been in some of the FB painters pages and compared to them you guys are civil af! 





use


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I would g with dirtex for the cleaning. As compared to Krud Kutter, it doesn't require a ton of rinsing so this minimizing the soaking down. And I'd say that given what you have going after sanding and cleaning just spray stix on them as the primer and skip the BIN.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Aqua lock is also good if you're worried about things bleeding through, but want to stick to water based. 

Oil primer is my go-to, though, since it'll block tannins better than water based primers. 

Definitely avoid BIN. Not only is it flammable, but it gets brittle over time and will eventually fail.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

2 coats of aqualock or 046 does pretty good. Keep a rattle can of coverstain handy though.

the general finishes primer has zero bleed through, i'm liking this primer but its very expensive..


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have had horrible bleeding with Stix and Aqualock. I cannot recommend either of those for blocking the bleeding you will get from oak kitchen cabinets. Adhesion is good, but really poor at stopping bleeding in our experience.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 2 coats of aqualock or 046 does pretty good. Keep a rattle can of coverstain handy though.
> 
> the general finishes primer has zero bleed through, i'm liking this primer but its very expensive..


Benjamin Moore rep recommended the 046. How long should I let it cure before I start scratching on it to determine adhesion ?


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

DittonWilson said:


> Benjamin Moore rep recommended the 046. How long should I let it cure before I start scratching on it to determine adhesion ?


Overnight no problem. I’d say your good in a few hours for fingernail test.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

It's hard to beat an alkyd primer but the Zinnser Smart Prime is working really well for me. Have had no bleed throughs and it's stuck to everything I've put it on so far.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Overnight no problem. I’d say your good in a few hours for fingernail test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have not been in the 046 a lot, but as a rule of thumb I tend to give at least a couple of days to expect full adhesion, even for Stix - depending. (I checked this once with Stix, just as a matter of experiement when I had some oil-base on crown molding and wasn't in a hurry. With no deglossing/sanding at all I could scrape the Stix off the next day pretty easily, but not after two days. I've just never tried this out with the 046). The 046 TDS says to give 3-4 days, but that's for hard, nonporous surfaces. So for those cabs I'd be inclined to wait at least a couple to know for sure.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Joe67 said:


> I have not been in the 046 a lot, but as a rule of thumb I tend to give at least a couple of days to expect full adhesion, even for Stix - depending. (I checked this once with Stix, just as a matter of experiement when I had some oil-base on crown molding and wasn't in a hurry. With no deglossing/sanding at all I could scrape the Stix off the next day pretty easily, but not after two days. I've just never tried this out with the 046). The 046 TDS says to give 3-4 days, but that's for hard, nonporous surfaces. So for those cabs I'd be inclined to wait at least a couple to know for sure.


We’ve been priming all the pine trim circa 1988. Block sand, dirtex, prime. Can scratch it off with my fingernail in less than 2 hours after it’s dry. The primer means nothing without prep. We all know this but it becomes a recurring issue for many “pros”


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

jr.sr. painting said:


> We’ve been priming all the pine trim circa 1988. Block sand, dirtex, prime. Can scratch it off with my fingernail in less than 2 hours after it’s dry. The primer means nothing without prep. We all know this but it becomes a recurring issue for many “pros”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All I know is that it's quite common for paints / primers to take longer than overnight to gain full adhesion regardless of prep. Without proper prep all bets are off. But if it's good after only overnight, all the better. FWIW, I have no "recurring issues" with prep or adhesion.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

DittonWilson said:


> adding this here. When they sent me these pictures yesterday I was curious what the tape is for . Turns out they are having someone mount pull knobs on the front of these . Should I tell them I need that done first? Or is it going to be ok for them to do it after I paint them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

probably better to do it first, but it shouldn't matter, unless they hired a gorilla to do the work.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

DittonWilson said:


> Benjamin Moore rep recommended the 046. How long should I let it cure before I start scratching on it to determine adhesion ?


even stix takes 48+ hours..
Once we were spraying thinned 046 primer over benited fir doors with HVLP, we had attached galvanized washers between the door rack filppers and a few hours later I had to chisel them off because they were stuck so well.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> even stix takes 48+ hours..


the 90 minutes I waited wasn't quite long enough : ) I've got places to go and things to do . Maybe tomorrow I'll put a scratch in it every 30 minutes and give a detailed report back on exactly how long it took to set up


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

jr.sr. painting said:


> We’ve been priming all the pine trim circa 1988. Block sand, dirtex, prime. Can scratch it off with my fingernail in less than 2 hours after it’s dry. The primer means nothing without prep. We all know this but it becomes a recurring issue for many “pros”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have to correct that (damn auto correct) the primer couldn’t be scratched off in 2 hours after dry. Bottom line we’ve switched to 046 for 90% of priming. Worth every penny. I’ll admit I was using S-W multi purpose and liked it bc it worked and was 16$/gallon. But needed two coats over stained trim. I pride myself on time management and this was just an awful decision I made for years. I fell for the old pricing scam.


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Aqua lock is also good if you're worried about things bleeding through, but want to stick to water based.
> 
> Oil primer is my go-to, though, since it'll block tannins better than water based primers.
> 
> *Definitely avoid BIN. Not only is it flammable, but it gets brittle over time and will eventually fail.*


Hell of a statement. Flammable, absolutely and I guess we are all doomed!


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

I would just do BIN with a mini-roller of your choice and it should be fine, probably with any "good" roller, but I prefer Arroworthy 3/8" microfibers. BIN basically looks sprayed anyway as it's so thin, it levels really well. I did a job recently of two rooms of oak paneling in an office with BIN, and it leveled off really well. It did have a little bit of bleed through, but we did only one coat of BIN and didn't wait a full 24 hours, it wasn't enormously awful or anything like that. It's way better than using oil, just from smell and flammability alone (oil is still just as explosive if not more) and oil still cracks and isn't that flexible either. I think if I were to do it again, I'd go BIN + high hide latex primer of your choice (Fresh Start 046 being ideal...) then your top coat. Two coats of BIN would be excessive to apply, imo. 









I think there definitely was a few things I could have done better on this job, but the guy I subbed for bid it crazily wrong even after I specifically told him prior it was like doing a wall of cabinets, he bid it basically like doing drywall walls with a prime. I even told him beyond prep and the BIN to not hire me and have another person just spray it, too, but I brushed and rolled it all. He also picked out BM Ben as a top coat which covered very awful with two coats, so the final coat was Regal which covered a lot better and was pretty high build to hide the grain. 


















But yeah, BIN would definitely be appropriate imo, but I wouldn't rely on it as a color changing primer due to it being so thin, so to build color out you should use another latex primer on top, and ideally BIN takes 1-2 days to fully block any tannins, and any tannin that comes through after 1-2 days you should spot recoat. Oil sucks unless it's really thinned out, and then of course you don't know the adhesion, and oil primers with low VOC rules are super ropey and nasty to apply, and Coverstain specifically sucks even more now and feels like it's killing you as soon as you open the can due to some weird solvent they use for VOC compliance. If you used oil you'd have to wait a few days for a full cure to dry, then sand the absolute hell out of it for smoothness, whereas BIN will level perfectly if you apply it with only the bare minimum of care, probably will need minimal sanding for orange peel or drips (and it will be hard enough to sand to powder the next day) then just use whatever you want as your top coat.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Hey Celica, just to correct, BIN is much more flammable than oil. It's flashpoint is like 16 degrees celcius. That's a few degrees colder than room temp. It also needs a much lower concentration in the air to combust. Rolling it on is probably okay, but definitely don't spray near any sort of ignition source, and don't spray a lot, even without ignition, if you have no ventilation. It can go boom boom by itself.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Masterwork said:


> Hey Celica, just to correct, BIN is much more flammable than oil. It's flashpoint is like 16 degrees celcius. That's a few degrees colder than room temp. It also needs a much lower concentration in the air to combust. Rolling it on is probably okay, but definitely don't spray near any sort of ignition source, and don't spray a lot, even without ignition, if you have no ventilation. It can go boom boom by itself.


 

I did not know that, I guess I won't be spraying indoors then.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Masterwork said:


> Hey Celica, just to correct, BIN is much more flammable than oil. It's flashpoint is like 16 degrees celcius. That's a few degrees colder than room temp. It also needs a much lower concentration in the air to combust. Rolling it on is probably okay, but definitely don't spray near any sort of ignition source, and don't spray a lot, even without ignition, if you have no ventilation. It can go boom boom by itself.


It needs an ignition source still. Auto ignition temperature is 689°F for ethanol.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Yeah, I was thinking a static spark, or a spark inside an exhaust fan, unless you're spending $1000 on an explosion proof fan.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

That looks like solid Oak to me. I wouldn' be concerned about the excess water from washing them. I usually have 2 buckets. 1 with Hot Water, Dawn and TSPE. The other with just hot water.
Your going to have a heck of a time getting the primer into all those cracks anyhow, so your probably going to have to jam a brush in there atleast for the prime coat. After a sand they should spray out just fine. I've also been using BIN lately. Sprays so nice from an hvlp. But yes ventilate really well.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

DeanV said:


> It needs an ignition source still. Auto ignition temperature is 689°F for ethanol.


there are typically several potential ignition sources when spraying indoors. Why risk it?


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Holland said:


> there are typically several potential ignition sources when spraying indoors. Why risk it?


The last time I did flammables indoors, it wasn't spraying. I had to roll out a concrete basement floor with a seriously combustible sealer. I chose a time when the HOs were out of town, turned off the gas to the house early on (and obviously checked that the pilots were dead), and killed every breaker save the one that ran the big spark-safe fan blowing out the door.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Test doors turned out really well , - cleaned , sanded, 046, sand, 2 coats of Advance . Sprayed with graco 490 Sith Titan ff tip . I am going to use tri tech 308 and it should be here tomorrow . I also have the graco fine finish kit ordered with the proper filters and a hopper .


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