# Simple green for cigarette smoke walls



## bmcs (Mar 5, 2014)

Has anyone used Simple Green degreaser/ cleaner to freshen some smokey-smelly walls and ceilings?
I used it in the service to clean everything and was wondering if it can do the job. It has a fresh smell to hide cigarette odor.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

bmcs said:


> Has anyone used Simple Green degreaser/ cleaner to freshen some smokey-smelly walls and ceilings?
> I used it in the service to clean everything and was wondering if it can do the job. It has a fresh smell to hide cigarette odor.


I don't know if ANYTHING would really work to get rid of it - except Binning it and then painting.


----------



## bmcs (Mar 5, 2014)

*Simple green use*

I'm just wondering if anyone uses simple green, it has a cleaner smell than Dirtex. This job does not warrant using a BIN or CoverStain product. I'm going to wash it it only, then paint if needed.


----------



## Eagle Cap Painter (Nov 14, 2016)

That Simple Green smell is only going to hang around for a few hours, while the cigarette smell is more or less permanent. Hanging car air fresheners in every room would be more effective.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Hiding cigarette smoke odor*



bmcs said:


> I'm just wondering if anyone uses simple green, it has a cleaner smell than Dirtex. This job does not warrant using a BIN or CoverStain product. I'm going to wash it it only, then paint if needed.


There are some threads here that talk about getting rid of cigarette smoke odor. I did a job where I used some chemicals designed to remove odors, then I painted 2 coats Kilz Max white on walls and ceilings. The smell definitely went away according to my nose and everyone else who was familiar with the property.

Here are a couple of email volleys between me and Erik Jannusch of Zinsser/Rustoleum where he gives me the permeability ratings of BIN and Coverstain as well as of Gardz:

Fred, 

Cover stain has a perm rating of 3 to 4 depending on the version used. There are multiple versions depending on the area of the country and the clean air laws in that area. Unfortunately the perm rating isn't listed on most consumer products since we do not advertise them as a vapor barrier product and the average consumer would not take that type of information into consideration. The BIN primer is going to be the best when it comes to odor, the Cover Stain will block them to some degree, the Gardz more than likely will not show a significant difference at all. 

Thank You, 
Erik Jannusch 
Product Support 
Phone-866-580-4376 
Fax-866-787-2150 



From: "Fred" <[email protected]> 
To: "'Erik Jannusch'" <[email protected]>, 
Date: 06/01/2016 12:42 PM 
Subject: RE: Gardz question 
________________________________________



Erik, thank you so much for getting back to me. I am futtyos in Paint Talk Forum. We are having a discussion right now about Gardz and odor blocking. A number at Paint Talk swear by Cover Stain for blocking cigarette odors. Do you know what the perm rating is for Cover stain? Are the perm ratings in any of the technical sheets on your products? 

Fred 

From: Erik Jannusch [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 11:51 AM
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Gardz question 

Hi Fred, 

The Gardz will not do well on odors because its permeability rating is actually considerably higher than most of our other products. To be a true vapor barrier, the permeability rating of a product must be 0. Our BIN primer, which is our best stain and odor blocking product ranges from .8-1.4 depending on the shellac crop. This product is designed to block odors and is one of the best in the industry. The Gardz product has a perm rating of 26. If there is any sort of odor, it will bleed right through. 

Thank You, 
Erik Jannusch 
Product Support 
Phone-866-580-4376 
Fax-866-787-2150 



From: "Fred" 
To: "Erik Jannusch" <[email protected]>, 
Date: 05/31/2016 11:51 PM 
Subject: Gardz question 
________________________________________




Erik, I have spoken with you in the past regarding Gardz. I have a question about Gardz. Since it is a sealer, will it seal in odors? Such as cigarette odors? I just cleaned and primed a whole house (900 sq ft) using special chemicals and a water based primer, Kilz Max (the owners just wanted priming, no painting), and it did the job, but I am wondering if Gardz will also seal in the odors. I would rather use Gardz. Can you look into this? 

Fred 


Here are 2 threads that discuss cigarette odor removal (among other things):

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/smoke-odor-removal-65929/index2/

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/cigarette-smoke-48489/index3/

Lilpaintchic and Driftweed gave some good advice that I might use on the next cigarette odor paint job. Lilpaintchic was of the opinion that even though I used chemicals designed to get rid of cig odor, it will eventually come back. Both her and Driftweed sounded fairly sure that BIN or Coverstain is the way to go and skip the cleaning unless it is really dirty.

As far as Simple Green goes, if you try it and it works, great. If you spend the time and energy to try it and it doesn't work, then you will have to spend more time and energy to find something else that will work. Like doing an extra science project. Personally, I don't think that Simple Green will remove the odor, but I have never tried it, so my thoughts on this might not be of value. If you are set on just cleaning to get rid of the odor, I would suggest doing some research on what the latest and greatest products are for that, use it successfully, then come back to Paint Talk and share your discovery with all here. 

Also, if you do decide to clean with SG, you might want to rent a commercial ozone generator and run that in the room for a couple of days, taking care to remove as many articles from the room that might get degrded from the oxidative effects of the ozone. Good luck.

futtyos


----------



## bmcs (Mar 5, 2014)

Thank you for the info. I did a search before posting and did already see some of these older posts. 
I have not looked at this apartment yet, only had he heads up from th owner. He has a renter there who has broken her agreement not to smoke inside. 
I have used Dirtex on a couple of dirty walls before, and was just wondering if the SG product would work. I think it will as we use to use it to clean diesel exhaust stains from the hulls of white USCG boats.
Will advise my intentions and outcome of SG. Will try it on some walls.
Thanks again,


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Staining from the tar in cigarette smoke is a whole different breed of animal. Even if a surface might be made to look clean, it will still stink.


----------



## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

If someone is willing to pay you to try and clean it, why not? I wouldn't make any promises, though. 

It would depend on the client. If they were easy and reasonable to work with, I might give it a try. The understanding being that they would then be willing to pay you to prime and paint if it didn't work very well.

All said and done, we could probably BIN the whole place and repaint nearly as quickly as laboriously scrubbing on walls.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*BINNING vs cleaning*



ParamountPaint said:


> If someone is willing to pay you to try and clean it, why not? I wouldn't make any promises, though.
> 
> It would depend on the client. If they were easy and reasonable to work with, I might give it a try. The understanding being that they would then be willing to pay you to prime and paint if it didn't work very well.
> 
> All said and done, we could probably BIN the whole place and repaint nearly as quickly as laboriously scrubbing on walls.


ParamountPaint, if you did not read through my post and the threads I gave links for, I did a VERY THOROUGH job of spraying special chemicals onto the walls and ceilings of the ranch house I did, scrubbing the solution with a brush, wet vacuuming the solution off the wall, spraying it with a rinse solution that contained very potent deodorizing chemicals, let dry, then rolled 2 coats of Kilz Max white (Kilz Max claims to cover cigarette odors) because it was a latex primer and I didn't want to wear a mask to roll the BIN primer on. After going through that and then reading the advice of lilpaintchic and Driftwood, next time I believe I will only clean what is really gross, then BIN it. Doing all the thorough cleaning I did takes a lot more time than priming, for dang sure!

futtyos


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

ParamountPaint said:


> If someone is willing to pay you to try and clean it, why not? I wouldn't make any promises, though.
> .


lol, yeah scrubbing smoke out of walls sounds like great work


----------



## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Oh, you wouldn't catch me scrubbing anything. The OP seems inclined to do it, so I was saying if someone wants to pay you for it, give it a try. Like I mentioned somewhere, BIN + paint = paid and done.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Yup, go for it. No idea how much damage there is...if it's orange, do t bother. The nicotine and tar will have essentially penetrated the paint coating assuming it's latex and there's drywall on the walls. Think about it. Latex paint is permeable. Drywall is paper and gypsum...both are porous. Just because the surface LOOKS clean doesn't mean that the problem is resolved. The only method that is fool proof and a sure thing is to seal with a product that is not permeable. (Bin or coverstain will work. I've used kilz with success also).
Simple green is a great product. But there's a big difference between a solid surface and a porous one.
If you can get an to pay you decent wages to clean it, good luck. Bring an extra set of clothes to work cuz it's gonna be a smelly,wet, messy day for ya.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

ParamountPaint said:


> Oh, you wouldn't catch me scrubbing anything. The OP seems inclined to do it, so I was saying if someone wants to pay you for it, give it a try. Like I mentioned somewhere, BIN + paint = paid and done.


Exactly. I'm a painter not a cleaner...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Cleaning the surface of anything before painting is a best practice. It's even recommended in most product TDS's. With that said, probably one of the most hackied things I do is dust without using a cleaner. But very rarely. And only if conditions allow it.

Simple green would be fine as long as you rinsed the surface well to neutralize it. I prefer no rinse TSP.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You can go ahead and paint surfaces like around a bathroom vanity, or above a stove, without cleaning them first, but you do so at your own peril.


----------



## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

There is a time and place for scrubbing, but it won't be found in a nicotine stained apartment.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ParamountPaint said:


> There is a time and place for scrubbing, but it won't be found in a nicotine stained apartment.


Totally agree. There is nothing more futile than trying to make a dent in cigarette smoke damage by "cleaning" it. Just BIN the heck out of it and move on.


----------



## bmcs (Mar 5, 2014)

Update- Kilz Max worked great. BM 508 and Regal Select eggshell finished the project. Smell is much better but the renter's furniture and belongings still reek. That's not my concern. 
I will say, applying a Stainblocker that didn't destroy what's left of my grey matter, was a winner. Years ago I tsp' a smoker's apartment and got a little sick from the nicotine water. 
Thanks to all for your tips and ideas.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

bmcs said:


> Update- Kilz Max worked great. BM 508 and Regal Select eggshell finished the project. Smell is much better but the renter's furniture and belongings still reek. That's not my concern.
> I will say, applying a Stainblocker that didn't destroy what's left of my grey matter, was a winner. Years ago I tsp' a smoker's apartment and got a little sick from the nicotine water.
> Thanks to all for your tips and ideas.


Go look at it again in 6 months or so and let us know how that worked out in the long run...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bmcs said:


> Update- Kilz Max worked great. BM 508 and Regal Select eggshell finished the project. Smell is much better but the renter's furniture and belongings still reek. That's not my concern.
> I will say, applying a Stainblocker that didn't destroy what's left of my grey matter, was a winner. Years ago I tsp' a smoker's apartment and got a little sick from the nicotine water.
> Thanks to all for your tips and ideas.


Did you end up washing the surface with simple green?


----------



## bmcs (Mar 5, 2014)

Simple green never left the truck!

In 6 months I may be back there doing a repaint when the renter gets kicked out for still smoking against the owner' wishes!


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

....


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bmcs said:


> Simple green never left the truck!
> 
> In 6 months I may be back there doing a repaint when the renter gets kicked out for still smoking against the owner' wishes!


I think because you used a waterborne primer, I would have definitely cleaned the surface first. Typically you don't have to when using BIN or Coverstain. Both Zinsser products. 

The following is a cut and paste from the Kilz Max TDS:

*SURFACE PREPARATION *



*The surface must be clean, free of dust, grease, wax, peeling paint, mold, mildew and wallpaper paste. If washing is necessary, use a non-soapy detergent or a TSP substitute. Rinse well and allow to dry.*
Peeling or Checked Paint: Scrape off loose paint and sand to a smooth surface. Sanding or removal of paint containing lead is hazardous.†
Mold or Mildew Covered Surfaces: Wash the area with a mildew remover, rinse with water and allow to dry before priming.
Masonry, Brick, Stucco and Plaster: KILZ MAX primer may be used on clean, dry, aged masonry surfaces. New masonry must be allowed to cure (dry) at least 30 days before applying KILZ MAX primer.
Fire Restoration: *It is critical to clean smoke damaged surfaces thoroughly before priming.*
I would consider nicotine residue to be in the latter category.


----------



## LLp (Aug 14, 2016)

I used krud kutter to clean the nicotine stains off all walls and ceilings of this apartment. Over 10 years of heavy smoking. Lucky the walls and ceilings were heavily coated semi gloss and the product melted the nicotine off the walls as you can see in the pictures. As for the smell it was still there but not as bad . I did not have the chance to paint the apartment as for my job was to only prep the walls but the next step would be to replace subfloor and shellac prime all surfaces. Definitely costly for a landlord/ management company. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

LLp said:


> I used krud kutter to clean the nicotine stains off all walls and ceilings of this apartment. Over 10 years of heavy smoking. Lucky the walls and ceilings were heavily coated semi gloss and the product melted the nicotine off the walls as you can see in the pictures. As for the smell it was still there but not as bad . I did not have the chance to paint the apartment as for my job was to only prep the walls but the next step would be to replace subfloor and shellac prime all surfaces. Definitely costly for a landlord/ management company.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If not for painting, what did it need to be prepped for? Someone else doing the painting?


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Three or four months ago I dealt with a house in similar condition. I spent a couple days cleaning the walls, doors, and some door trim with TSP. Ceilings had an unusual texture that prevented wiping them down. I ended up spraying around 35 gallons of SW synthetic shellac on ceilings, walls, doors, casings, and concrete floors. 

Some of the smoke/nicotine stain bled through the the first finish coat on the ceilings and on a couple places on walls. In hindsight, I either did not completely remove all of the tsp and/ or that synthetic shellac is not an adequate substitute for bin.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Three or four months ago I dealt with a house in similar condition. I spent a couple days cleaning the walls, doors, and some door trim with TSP. Ceilings had an unusual texture that prevented wiping them down. I ended up spraying around 35 gallons of SW synthetic shellac on ceilings, walls, doors, casings, and concrete floors.
> 
> Some of the smoke/nicotine stain bled through the the first finish coat on the ceilings and on a couple places on walls. In hindsight, I either did not completely remove all of the tsp and/ or that synthetic shellac is not an adequate substitute for bin.


Gotta use the big guns. Solvent, solvent more solvent. I've never used the synthetic shellac...as much as I'd entertain the ideas for all the right reasons, experience dictates that if I'm gonna take something like that on I'm gonna go with tried and true. Screw the epa. I'm the one who has to deal with the headache when their "super duper max blah blah easy clean up" crap doesnt do the job. Thanks for sharing that synthetic is still lacking. So frustrating. :/

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

LLp said:


> I used krud kutter to clean the nicotine stains off all walls and ceilings of this apartment. Over 10 years of heavy smoking. Lucky the walls and ceilings were heavily coated semi gloss and the product melted the nicotine off the walls as you can see in the pictures. As for the smell it was still there but not as bad . I did not have the chance to paint the apartment as for my job was to only prep the walls but the next step would be to replace subfloor and shellac prime all surfaces. Definitely costly for a landlord/ management company.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why not just get straight to it and prime it all from the start? Just bag and hose it. Done. No nasty orange wet mess...ew. probably coulda had it all primed including the subfloor in the time it took to clean it....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## LLp (Aug 14, 2016)

RH said:


> If not for painting, what did it need to be prepped for? Someone else doing the painting?




Yes, someone else painting. I only
Got paid to clean the surfaces and prep. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

LLp said:


> Yes, someone else painting. I only
> Got paid to clean the surfaces and prep.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well, at least if there is any future bleed through issue they won't be coming after you over it.


----------



## LLp (Aug 14, 2016)

RH said:


> Well, at least if there is any future bleed through issue they won't be coming after you over it.




Basically that was my job. I quoted for the job but I think they will be giving the porters the painting duties now as the previous painter came back 5 times in a similar apartment so I think they are bitter and lost trust, there is no super just managers who hire out work they are not familiar with and porters stay away from extra duties. This apartment was previously cleaned by staff for a few days before they couldn't get the results needed, then I came in. In my opinion they are spending more in the long run by not hiring qualified painter who can properly coat the surfaces and is knowledgeable of proper prep and products. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> Three or four months ago I dealt with a house in similar condition. I spent a couple days cleaning the walls, doors, and some door trim with TSP. Ceilings had an unusual texture that prevented wiping them down. I ended up spraying around 35 gallons of SW synthetic shellac on ceilings, walls, doors, casings, and concrete floors.
> 
> Some of the smoke/nicotine stain bled through the the first finish coat on the ceilings and on a couple places on walls. In hindsight, I either did not completely remove all of the tsp and/ or that synthetic shellac is not an adequate substitute for bin.




This gets my vote.


----------



## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

The synthetic shellac works okay for many things but not so well on nicotine or wood tannins. Also, it tends to flash through the first coat of paint.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I painted my buddies heavily nicotined house. I spray kilzed the whole thing, and it STILL had a few bleed through spots, I had to spot prime.

That reminds me of a company I freelanced for... They did cleanup and abatements for dead bodies, and fire damage and stuff. 

A couple houses had fires, and I had to kilz all the studs. One of them was up in an attic. That sucked...

This first one I did, was some house three hours out of town. They got me a hotel room. There had been a body in the living room for three weeks in the summertime. The company had everything out and in hazmat dumpsters, and everything was cleaned up and deodorized when I got there. I had to kilz everything, including the subfloors, just to make sure the death smell would never come out. It got kind of creepy when I was by myself, it was getting dark, and my CD player broke, no radios.... The resort bar (off season, noone there but the bartender and a cook) got me drunk for free that night though.


----------

