# Cause of this texture?



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

This was shot with acrylic paint, 210 ff tip, 395 graco. First coat was fine, 2 and 3 coats did this. Only happened on steel doors, not surrounding mdf trim. No adhesion problems. Steel doors sanded and tacked for prep, no solvent wipe, which is what everyone is going to say to do, but never had this happen before.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

There're _not _air bubbles? 

If not, can't say that I've seen that exact problem before. What product were you using?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Nope, not air bubbles. Paint is solid, cannot scrape off the raised area. Almost like Braille dots. The paint was Graham Endure Ceramic Satin.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Never used Graham, as its not sold around here. But from reading around on the forums I got the impression its a solid product. Other than the obvious suggestion of calling out your rep, thats about all I can suggest Dean. 

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Just after you sprayed the doors, did they look good, and then after a time they looked like that? Just wondering if it was coming from the tip like that, or if the paint (for whatever reason) reacted in that way sometime after application. That is Odd.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Never used Graham, as its not sold around here. But from reading around on the forums I got the impression its a solid product. Other than the obvious suggestion of calling out your rep, thats about all I can suggest Dean.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


No Graham by you? It was first made in Chicago before Muralo bought them out and moved manufacturing to NJ and screwed everything up!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It was after application, the surrounding mdf trim is fine.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Nope, not air bubbles. Paint is solid, cannot scrape off the raised area. Almost like Braille dots. The paint was Graham Endure Ceramic Satin.


Dean, what do the doors say when you run your hand across them?:jester:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

maybe something going on with the metal. perhaps its conducting somehow.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Everything was sprayed out of 2 fives of finish. Mdf sprayed at the same time did not do this. Only the steel. If it was some contamination on the steel doors, I would think the first coat would have done it, not the following 2 coats only and adhesion would be compromised.

Maybe a humidity thing reacting only with paint on the steel??? Longshot.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Everything was sprayed put of 2 fives of finish. Mdf sprayed at the same time did not do this. Only the steel. If it was some contamination on the steel doors, I would think the first coat would have done it, not the following 2 coats only and adhesion would be compromised.
> 
> Maybe a humidity thing reacting only with paint on the steel??? Longshot.


My guess is its something on the steel rather than a humidity issue. If it was the mdf doing that I'd say maybe, but not the steel Can't be a product issue because the mdf is fine. So, I'd sand and re-coat one door and see how it reacts before continuing with the rest.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

That looks like oxidation, I see it a lot in a coastal environment with steel doors. Was there a primer coat? Did your guys burn through?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Dean, Are these just the exterior doors? Was thinking because I've never seen steel on residential, other than the entry doors.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Is it consistent across the entire door?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It is interior side of front door (exterior is tomorrow) and both sides of door from garage to house. Front doorisnot as bad, but across entire door. Entire garage door (pictured) is as bad as the picture.

For sanding, I doubt they sanded through the primer, scuffed with fine sanding pad.

It is a condo foreclosure being finished by the bank. It sat for at least 1 year, but no rust or damage.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Different Strokes said:


> Dean, what do the doors say when you run your hand across them?:jester:


The Braille reads "the streak of bad luck continues."


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

I zoomed my computer screen and have been looking at that picture racking my brain. I can't seem to come up with anything. Although I did discover that the man in Bender's avatar, the same avatar I've looked at probably 200 times is actually NOT Tony Soprano. :blink: :thumbsup:


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm going to go with dry spray. Corrosion on a door is not going to act that fast. Scrape thru the area's. If it is paint all the way thru then it is dry spray. The surface temp of the door and the trim was at different temps. This is why there is none on the trim.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

painter213 said:


> I'm going to go with dry spray. Corrosion on a door is not going to act that fast. Scrape thru the area's. If it is paint all the way thru then it is dry spray. The surface temp of the door and the trim was at different temps. This is why there is none on the trim.


I thought the same thing at first, but I'm sure Dean has sprayed enough doors to know better.


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

I would bet on a chemical reaction of some sort


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have never seen dry spray from an airless, especially when it looks good wet.  I did not spray this job and we are switching to a different top tier Graham product for tomorrow. I will make sure we are not mistingiton, but film build seems normal.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DeanV said:


> For sanding, I doubt they sanded through the primer, scuffed with fine sanding pad.


I can't help you at all but maybe with more info someone else can. Is this a primer that your guys applied onto an unpainted steel door? What type of primer was used? And also maybe provide the conditions it was coated under. 

This is the reason I come to PT. Your average paint rep can't solve this :yes:


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

My first guess was heat, but those don't look like the kind of bubbles caused by too hot of an environment. I'd have to say contamination of some sort, though i've never seen any acrylic paint do that. I'd say maybe a reaction between primer and paint, but if it worked on the MDF then that couldn't be the problem either. Has to be contamination on the steel. Might be best to strip and clean with toulene/MEK before starting over.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Since this is a bank financed, budget job, we are just doing 2 coats of paint over factory primers. Not our usual recipe but have done it before over these surfaces without problems and seen it done as well. I am guessing some contaminant, but any contaminant I have seen before results in fisheyes or adhesion loss, neither is present.

Still makes no sense that first coat was fine. Some kind of coalescence failure maybe. 

Humidity has been high. Temp mostly in upper 80's to 90. Although the last coat had cooler temps when sprayed, mid 70's after storms went through that morning.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Dean was the paint thinned with anything for the 2nd and 3rd coats?


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

why no solvent cleaning? my first guess would be air in your sprayline. ive seen this when air is sucked up from a low pot and then refilled without bleeding the lines out. most time the gun will spit, hiss and leave a bubbled spray pattern. if a small amount of air gets sucked up it wont alway show until the coating starts to cure and the air bubbles start to rise in the wet film as it is drying and become trapped.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Hey, I know NOTHING about spraying, but sometimes a person with absolutely no knowledge can hit the nail, so forgive me for butting in where I don't belong.

It looks like moisture issues. If the humidity was high, as Dean said, and there was a temperature differential between the surface of the door and the air, could it have been possible for condensation to have formed under the paint film?

Just tossing it out.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

My guess is that there was some kind of contaminate on the door. Were you on the site when it was done Dean or are you just going by what your guys have said?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

If it is an exterior door is it possible that some sort of chemical got on it in between coats? I'm thinking landscaper, pressure washer, or someone else that maybe used product nearby and got it on the door. It's strange that the first coat was fine.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Looks like hair spray.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Different Strokes said:


> I zoomed my computer screen and have been looking at that picture racking my brain. I can't seem to come up with anything. Although I did discover that the man in Bender's avatar, the same avatar I've looked at probably 200 times is actually NOT Tony Soprano. :blink: :thumbsup:


Good Stuff DS. Make ya think


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

i dont feel that high humidity would have this affect on water base product. it may slow down dry times and cure times. even if this were a moisture problem from a high dew point temp, you would more likely see water marks or paint wash off from condensation on the surface.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Looks like hair spray.


Funny that's exactly what I was thinking, I've seen this on many bathroom doors. No signs of possible adhesion issues until you apply the paint and a non-solvent tack wouldn't fix it. The thing is that hairspray would have caused failure on the first coat. :blink:

Also, you can't rule surface temperature out completely since a steel door would be significantly hotter than MDF in the exact same conditions


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm still going with Dry Spray. Moisture will not do this, Chemical exposure will not do this, High RH% will not do this. This is a good example of Dry Spray. Seen it many times spraying Vinyl's. Scrape thru the coating and see what lies beneth. It's got to be done anyway to correct the problem anyway. If you want an answer you have to do some digging around. We can look at a picture for a week but until we take out the knife we will never know.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

those 'bubbles' are far too big to be dry spray - unless they were sprayed with a texture sprayer. almost looks like the door has chicken pox. :jester:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am still saying there is some sort of oxidaton/corrosion of the metal going on. It will happen in a matter of hours when certain acrylics are applied over metal. They actually speed the oxidation process.

I agree its to big for dry spray, that would be more like baby power not popcorn texture.


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

painter213 said:


> I'm going to go with dry spray. Corrosion on a door is not going to act that fast. Scrape thru the area's. If it is paint all the way thru then it is dry spray. The surface temp of the door and the trim was at different temps. This is why there is none on the trim.


I'm not familiar with dry spare. Would you be willing to expound?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Dry spray is when the coating is not applied wet enough and the individually atomized droplets cannot flow together and form a continuous, smooth film. At least that is my take.

Problem cannot be from contaminated air, we did this with an airless.

Shooting a different topcoat did not solve the problem, so I am going to have them sand it again, clean with krud cutter, damp rag, xim primer, and then top coat again.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Hard to say from the pic. The texture has a sheen as well as the flat of the door. So no seperation really. 'Dryspray', as I interpret the term, would not be as consistent in it's sheen as it seems to be in the pic provided. If it were oxidation of a sort, you would likely see some evidence of that on the exterior side I think. What's there? Possible, especially on the coast like Straightlines said. 

If you sand it a little bit with some different grits of paper in some different areas, and take a pic becaue I am curious, lightly _you can probably answer this question absolutely if you do._ Even better you could rub lightly with laquer thinner and take the coats off in succession down to the primer. A little gentler method I suppose. 

My first thought, because of the sheen being consistent, is that it was sprayed in light of the texture that was already there, whatever the cause. If I weren't there when the application occurred, I would sand or chemical rub like I said just to see for myself what I am working with. If I had time I suppose. Not too much effort though. Probably less than it took posting this at all right? 

In other words I almost want to say operator error, _not yours necessarily_, just a lack of..... 

Interesting though indeed.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My guess is some chemical contamination on the factory primer, no one else there since we started, no visible problems on primer or exterior side of front door which has not been painted. 

We sanded again, wiped with krud cutter, primed with xim, and top coated with no problems. The problem definitely shows up as the paint film dried, not when it was first sprayed.

We used to do a solvent wipe and sand all steel doors and grew lazy since everyone else in the area did not do either step and we have just been sanding lately. Time to go back to the additional step as a precaution for the 1 in 50 doors that gives you an unexpected problem.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DeanV said:


> If it was some contamination on the steel doors, I would think the first coat would have done it, not the following 2 coats only and adhesion would be compromised.


Dean what made you change your mind about the factory primer? This is an interesting problem and I'm very curious as to what caused it but I can't imagine any contaminate would have no effect on the first coat.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I really do not know why the the first coat seemed fine, but I am wondering if my guy somehow missed in when checking the first coat or if it was not as bad on the first coat.

IMHO, it is not dry spray. It is not air bubbles, It is not corrosion (factory primer solid, intact, inside and outside of doors, sanding off bumps just sands to other finish paint and not anything further down that is raised up). Switch to a different product line did not help.

By process of elimination, some chemical contaminant is the only thing that makes sense to me even though all cases of contamination I have ever seen previously result in fisheyes or adhesion failure. I do not know, maybe the finish dissolved some contaminant, it floated up through the coating while it was wet to mess up each successive coat, I really do not know for certain.

At least it is fixed. Unfortunately, it added a man-day to a budget job.

Sometimes I think I should prime everything with coverstain and insurance, I think a WB primer would have had the same issues. I just do not want to deal with the stink and spray cleanup of a solvent primer.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Well if the bumps were solid and sanded off maybe there is something your guy isn't telling you.....

contaminates can't create matter right? Only you know whether you can trust his word or not but I figured all other ideas have been exhausted it seems. Is it possible he didn't want to tell you the door never got sanded before coating?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

This is not the kind of texture that can be caused by a rough surface, dust, no sandingetc. It definitely formed while the coating dried. It could not be done with a sprayer spitting, too little finish, IMHO. Never seen anything like it and probably never will again.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

DeanV said:


> Sometimes I think I should prime everything with coverstain and insurance, I think a WB primer would have had the same issues. I just do not want to deal with the stink and spray cleanup of a solvent primer.


ONE TIME a few months ago a SW employee talked me into something other than CS to prime some metal doors. It is hard lessons like that which make it so hard to change what works for me.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DeanV said:


> This is not the kind of texture that can be caused by a rough surface, dust, no sandingetc. It definitely formed while the coating dried. It could not be done with a sprayer spitting, too little finish, IMHO. Never seen anything like it and probably never will again.



Well, we may never know then. I vote for an unsolved problems sticky.

Who knows when the one guy with the correct answer will stumble upon this?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gibberish45 said:


> Well, we may never know then. I vote for an unsolved problems sticky.
> 
> Who knows when the one guy with the correct answer will stumble upon this?


thats a great idea actually. Should have like a entire part of the forum for the category "unsolved paint problems- Cold case division"


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

This is one of those where you can "what if" it to death and still find no answer. If it were contamination I would agree that it would happen on the first coat too. Over spray or dry spray doesnt look like that, at least none that ive seen.

Personally id leave it and try to up charge for the custom faux finish that you did lol.


If I had to take a stab at the cause: Out gassing from the first coat. No idea why it happened, just the perfect storm of conditions I suppose. Hot and humid, garage warmer than the interior of the home causing one side of the door to be warmer than the other. One of those things that happen once in a blue moon, and you'll probably never see again. Just my thoughts.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> This is not the kind of texture that can be caused by a rough surface, dust, no sandingetc. It definitely formed while the coating dried. It could not be done with a sprayer spitting, too little finish, IMHO. Never seen anything like it and probably never will again.


When you sanded down what did the texture look like? Was it solid like paint chunks? Was there color present other than the white enamel? 

Chalky? Hard? Gummy?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The bumps had the same color, consistency, etc as the surround dried paint film. Sanded the same as paint. Was as hard as the rest of the trim enamel. Clearly not a bump apart from the rest of the trim paint but part of the whole.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Bummer that it happened, worse that you don't know why so you can avoid it in the future.


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

Just like I said, Dry Spray. Using a fine finish tip like that and add in a hot day you will get it. If you sanded and it was color all the way thru, then there was no contaminates there or you would have seen it. I've been doing this a long time and I've seen it before. This is what I do for a living and I stay very busy with it. Glad you got it fixed.:thumbsup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The 4th regular attempt on a cool, mid 70's regular day did it also though. If it was dry spray, shouldn't it have shown up immediately not slowly developed as the door dried?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I wasn't familiar with dry spray until this thread, I thought it was established ITT that it cannot happen with an airless? Could someone lay this to rest please?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> The 4th regular attempt on a cool, mid 70's regular day did it also though. If it was dry spray, shouldn't it have shown up immediately not slowly developed as the door dried?


Out gassing would do that. How long between the first and second coats? Any chance the Guy sprayed a tacky first coat?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

one coat per day only, except the final day when it was one coat of new top coat on one door in the morning (which still did it), then XIM and top coat all on the same day. Between coat one on a Thursday, Coat 2 on a Friday, Coat 3 on Monday, Coat 4 on Tuesday (one face only to try new topocoat product), XIM and final top coat Tuesday.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

painter213 said:


> Just like I said, Dry Spray. Using a fine finish tip like that and add in a hot day you will get it. If you sanded and it was color all the way thru, then there was no contaminates there or you would have seen it. I've been doing this a long time and I've seen it before. This is what I do for a living and I stay very busy with it. Glad you got it fixed.:thumbsup:


Ok then what exactly is dry spray by your definition? I always thought it is when you get overspray on a wet surface as it dried making an inconsistent finish. Just curious as to what caused this so I can avoid it in the future. 

I could see dryspray causing this texture, as I understand the meaning, if it were solvent based.


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> Ok then what exactly is dry spray by your definition? I always thought it is when you get overspray on a wet surface as it dried making an inconsistent finish. Just curious as to what caused this so I can avoid it in the future.
> 
> I could see dryspray causing this texture, as I understand the meaning, if it were solvent based.


My thoughts exactly. Looks kind of like "fuzzy"overspray on your finish coat.


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

Dry Spray is not Over Spray. Dry Spray happens when your spraying and the coat is drying too fast to flow out and can bead up on the surface like BB's. It's almost lke the spray is drying in the air before it has time to hit the surface. Over Spray is what happens when you over reach when spraying and the fog or mist settles back down onto the surface or other surfaces where it is not wanted. And yes, over spray and dry spray happens with airless spray applications. That same type texture on your doors is the same texture I have seen many times before when dry spray happend. Most times it happens from improper spray technique such as spraying with a sweeping motion accross the surface instead of keeping the gun 90 degrees to the surface.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

painter213 said:


> Dry Spray is not Over Spray. Dry Spray happens when your spraying and the coat is drying too fast to flow out and can bead up on the surface like BB's. It's almost lke the spray is drying in the air before it has time to hit the surface. Over Spray is what happens when you over reach when spraying and the fog or mist settles back down onto the surface or other surfaces where it is not wanted. And yes, over spray and dry spray happens with airless spray applications. That same type texture on your doors is the same texture I have seen many times before when dry spray happend. Most times it happens from improper spray technique such as spraying with a sweeping motion accross the surface instead of keeping the gun 90 degrees to the surface.



Wouldn't atomized dry paint be smaller than BBs? Seems like the tip would leave dry spray feeling and looking more like fine sandpaper. Those bumps on the door look larger than that.


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

Nope!!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

So, if it is dry spray, I have a few questions:

Why did it not happen on hot day #1 and first coat?

Why on the final day of working on the doors did it happen with the 4th coat on the coolest day first thing in the morning when it was cool and no humidity? Then, after cleaning and priming, it did not happen in the afternoon when it was warmer but still a very nice, comfortable day?

Also, if the spray method (arcing the stroke) is to blame, it should have been on the trim as well since we hit the trim with the door closed at the same time door slab?

Not saying you are wrong, just that it does not seem to be linked directly to the weather and if it was applicator it should have been more prevalent. I will still mention it to him as something to look out for, just not quite convinced yet.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

an act of God perhaps. Dean, i'm on (Hopefully) the tail end of what I can only describe as a "string of bad luck". I feel your pain buddy :yes:


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

That is not dry spray, no way in hell


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

Ive seen overspray land on a surface that was dry, leaving a tiny particles, then the following coats build it up, that might be what he is meaning by dry spray, I havent had it happen on a door, usually on tall walls the fallout from above lands on the slight mound from the tape seams below building a prickly textured surface.


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

Mike's Got it!!! Dry Spray is not OverSpray!! Thanks Mike!!


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