# Paint problem in bathrooms



## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

Looking at walls in a bathroom that will be repainted. Don't know how to prep this though. The problem appears to be moisture/condensation related. Pics are below, although the pics are a little accentuated due to the flash.

The walls are NOT currently damp - what you're seeing is a sort of gummy, sticky residue. However it appears in areas that would have gotten condensation possibly. Both bathrooms are separated into 2 sub-rooms. In one, the sink is in the front, with a door separating the toilet and tub room. The problem only exists in the room with the tub. In the master, it's separated into a toilet room and the rest of the room with sink, tub and shower. This is a large bathroom with a vaulted ceiling. The problem exists in the big room with the shower, and not in the toilet room.

Anyone have any idea what this is, or how to prep to repaint? It's clear and in some places has formed a kind of lizard skin texture. I believe the paint is flat, and they think it's Sherwin Williams, but not sure of which line.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Chemical (hair spray, perfume, deodorant ,etc.) and soap/shampoo residue mixed with condensation.

Clean well (Krud Kutter), wipe down again with clean damp towel. Prime with quality primer and top coat. Go with satin or semi sheen.

Tell them to run their fan more, or better yet, get a digital timer installed for the fan.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Classic Surfactant Leach. Wipe with micro fiber cloth and warm water. It's just soap contained in paint. There are several good threads with more thorough explanation. Do not repaint. If so use the Aura Bath & Spa by Ben Moore. It's hydrophobic resin pushes moisture away eliminating this issue.


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

Of course I talked to him about running the fan, and he said the first bathroom is his daughter's, and she tends to leave the fan running when she goes to school, so if anything the fan is on too long.



NACE said:


> Do not repaint.


Huh? How can I tell them that?

I'll check out the other threads. You were recommending not using a cleaner while the first response was recommending a cleaner, so there isn't consensus on this sort of thing? Actually the two suggestions above are pretty different scenarios.....

In addition to cleaning it and priming, I'll also need to sand and/or skim coat to eliminate the "reptile skin". But I can't do that until any gumminess is cleared up, obviously.

I guess my deeper question is, all shower bathrooms get humidity and many also get some condensation, so what in particular about these two are causing this surfactant leaching? Is it common to some specific type of paint?


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

NACE said:


> Classic Surfactant Leach. There are several good threads with more thorough explanation.


I searched on "surfactant leach" and only found this thread, which doesn't apply. Could you show me some links? Thanks.
http://www.painttalk.com/f6/deck-47881/


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

RH said:


> Chemical (hair spray, perfume, deodorant ,etc.) and soap/shampoo residue mixed with condensation.


That sounds plausible, but it seems curious that the same problem is occurring in both bathrooms, and it doesn't seem likely they're using the same product that's causing the issue. The real thing in common between the 2 bathrooms seems to be the paint itself. But if it were simply common chemicals in the air, I would have thought I'd have seen this in other bathrooms commonly too.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> I searched on "surfactant leach" and only found this thread, which doesn't apply. Could you show me some links? Thanks.
> http://www.painttalk.com/f6/deck-47881/


Try a search for "interior paint surfactant leach".


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

Gough said:


> Try a search for "interior paint surfactant leach".


You realize that's even _more_ restrictive, right?  It only finds this thread. Maybe you're talking about a web search, NACE was talking about a forum search.


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

I did find this thread. I guess I had to search on surfactant "leaching", not "leach". Anyway, it applies more to freshly painted exterior, not old interior. Anyway, I'll try various cleaning methods until I see how it works.
http://www.painttalk.com/f2/surfactant-leaching-6763/


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jeffnc said:


> You realize that's even _more_ restrictive, right?  It only finds this thread. Maybe you're talking about a web search, NACE was talking about a forum search.


Sorry, you're right, I was talking web wide. I've pretty much given up hope of the Search function here on PT.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I hate to bring it up, but any idea what paint product was used? An inferior paint could be the major issue in a bathroom. They aren't all ideal for this application, no matter how hard the people selling it try to convince people.

They can't all be the best at moisture resistance.

The "gummy, sticky residue" comment i hear quite often regarding a particular brand that shall remain unmentioned.


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

As I mentioned in the OP, the brand is Sherwin Williams but I don't know which line.

I was just told the house was purchased 1.5 years ago, and the problem existed when they moved in. It's a rather upscale house actually, but not those bathroom paint jobs. There is a third bathroom with what appears to be the exact same paint, but there is no shower in that bathroom, and no issues that I saw. I don't know if the bathrooms were redone at some point by the previous owner or if it was original builder. The bathrooms are fairly nice, with nice vanities and fixtures, so it didn't look like the job as a whole was skimped.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

jeffnc said:


> As I mentioned in the OP, the brand is Sherwin Williams but I don't know which line.
> 
> I was just told the house was purchased 1.5 years ago, and the problem existed when they moved in. It's a rather upscale house actually, but not those bathroom paint jobs. There is a third bathroom with what appears to be the exact same paint, but there is no shower in that bathroom, and no issues that I saw. I don't know if the bathrooms were redone at some point by the previous owner or if it was original builder. The bathrooms are fairly nice, with nice vanities and fixtures, so it didn't look like the job as a whole was skimped.


Listen to NACE, he's correct. This is most likely surfactant leach, a very common problem in bathrooms painted with sub-optimal paints or in bad moisture conditions.

The reason he doesn't mention a cleaner is because the surfactant is basically a soap. With warm water, it should come off on its own. Sanding shouldn't be necessary unless the homeowners haven't cleaned the walls in years and years with it on there. Even then, bit of a scrub with a cloth should get it off. May take some elbow grease.

Sometimes people's fans just don't move enough air. There's multiple reasons for that- the most frequent is simply the fan not being rated for the area of the room. You'll also see them get clogged up frequently. Take a sheet of paper or something like that and hold it up next to the fan with it on. If it doesn't get sucked up to the fan, they need to take it down and clean it or replace the motor (or get a bigger fan). This is a huge problem that most people aren't aware of.

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-contractors/surfactant-leaching

This is a link to Ben Moore's little "help" page about it. It mentions brown stains, but they often appear clear or white as well. It also mentions that this usually occurs on newer paint (true of BM's lines) but it can continue for quite a long time with some paints in moist conditions.

If you want to repaint, I'd recommend doing a stain blocking primer (to keep it from leaching from the crappy coating below to the better coating on top) and, like NACE mentioned, a paint specifically meant for bathrooms such as the Aura Bath & Spa. Generally speaking, though, surfactant leach doesn't hurt anything other than being an eyesore. It just needs to be cleaned regularly. In many or most cases, the solution is ventilation rather than wall coating.


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

OK, sounds good, thanks.

The sanding was for the "reptile skin" areas, for after I got that stuff cleaned off. Will go at it with just water for the residue and hope that works.

For priming, sounds like Gardz might be a good choice??

Will also check into the fan. I actually recommended he consider a humidity sensing fan. Either way, this is a whole bathroom remodel, so I think a new/better fan will be very easy to sell with it.

(I think I mentioned it already, but the reason for painting these walls is NOT to cover the residue, so avoiding a repaint is not an option. The bathroom is being remodeled and so I have to get rid of the residue for the repaint.)


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I've seen surfactant leaching but that has always been after a surface was painted relatively recently. Obviously if nothing was ever done about it it could still be present but how common is it to appear down the line months or even years after application?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Also, are the HO's smokers by any chance?


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

Nonsmokers. This residue has been on the wall since they moved in 1 1/2 years ago. Seems odd they never tried to clean it or fix it until now, considering how clean and upscale the rest of the house is.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally I think I'd prime with BIN if money wasn't a concern.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Yeah, for repainting purposes, clean surfaces, allow to dry and prime with a combination stain blocking/bonding primer. Then use as good quality paint to top coat, preferably (as has already been noted) one that is designated for bathrooms.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Yeah, for repainting purposes, clean surfaces, allow to dry and prime with a combination stain blocking/bonding primer. Then use as good quality paint to top coat, preferably (as has already been noted) one that is designated for bathrooms.


When we first started painting, our biggest clients were the Greek houses at the unis around here. They were like a test bed for paint durability, and the bathrooms were the worst. We had to repaint many of them at least once a year. We kept trying different products and finally tried Zinnser Perma-White Bathroom paint. It lasted 2-3 times longer than almost all of the other products* 

I'm not sure if that particukar product has been discontinued or merely re-labelled. A search just now came up with "Perma-White Mold and Mildew Resistant Interior Paint".

*The only other product that came close was AcryShield, a product from Columbia Paints. Sadly, that company disappeared into the maw of Satan's Workshop.



*EDIT*. In light of other members' more recent experience with this product, I'm now hesitant to recommend it.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> A search just now came up with "Perma-White Mold and Mildew Resistant Interior Paint".


I tried that stuff in our own bathroom on the ceiling. It was a nightmare. Not sure what was going on, but I got microbubbles everywhere. Thousands of them. They stayed till paint got slightly set up, then popped. Looked horrible. I sanded, repainted with a different sleeve. Still no luck, same results.

I gave up and got a gallon of BM K/B Pearl, two coats later it was perfect.

Zinsser should stick to what they're good at. Primers.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I tried that stuff in our own bathroom on the ceiling. It was a nightmare. Not sure what was going on, but I got microbubbles everywhere. Thousands of them. They stayed till paint got slightly set up, then popped. Looked horrible. I sanded, repainted with a different sleeve. Still no luck, same results.
> 
> I gave up and got a gallon of BM K/B Pearl, two coats later it was perfect.
> 
> Zinsser should stick to what they're good at. Primers.


Thanks. Yours was probably a more recent experience. I haven't had the occasion to use the Zinnser product in a long time


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> Thanks. Yours was probably a more recent experience. I haven't had the occasion to use the Zinnser product in a long time


Yeah, that would have been about three years ago. Keep in mind that was the only time I used it. Never did figure out what went wrong. Once bitten twice shy though.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I tried that stuff in our own bathroom on the ceiling. It was a nightmare. Not sure what was going on, but I got microbubbles everywhere. Thousands of them. They stayed till paint got slightly set up, then popped. Looked horrible. I sanded, repainted with a different sleeve. Still no luck, same results.
> 
> I gave up and got a gallon of BM K/B Pearl, two coats later it was perfect.
> 
> Zinsser should stick to what they're good at. Primers.


Popping microspheres. If you read the label of the perma white mold & mildew paint, it is considered a paint and primer/self priming paint.

I'm in complete detective mode over these "microspheres". Apparently this is the main culprit behind the "paint & primer" syndrome that has taken over the paint industry. No one is very forthcoming with info though, as this technology is still in double top secret-eyes only status in the paint underworld. I may have to go undercover.

As you may well remember a few months ago, i was kind of incredulous about the tiny "grit" in some "premium" box store paints. After some detective work i found out that there was this new, mysterious new additive called microspheres. They have actually been around for years, but have just in the last few years trickled down to the retail end of the coatings market. These box store brands, i suspect, have started using these microspheres in their paint. I don't know exactly how they work, but the scuttlebutt in the underworld is that they are filled with water, and as the paint dries the microsphere bursts, allowing the water to dry as the paint dries. The broken remnants of these spheres reflect light at millions of different angles, which actually provides a better "hide" to the paint.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

A painter that used to work for me has had problems with Permawhite in the past year drying poorly (can't remember if it wrinkled, cracked, or bubbled anymore but a weird failure while it dried). And she is a good painter. Not an applicator error type issue. I am staying with Aura Bath and Spa in bathrooms.


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## jeffnc (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm sure the Aura Bath paint can be sold here (i.e. the customer will pay for that.) Now I'm wondering if anyone has any comment about my Gardz idea for primer, while there was one suggestion for BIN and other suggestions for something standard (such as 123).


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Might look at a better ventilation fan also. Panasonic 110cfm is what we like to use. I'd clean it(tsp or something like it)coverstain it, skim it and use proclassic (insert your favorite satin enamel here) in the wet areas..


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Had the same problem in my daughters bathroom, long showers, fan not on. I just rinsed and re-painted it with S/w pre-cat water base epoxy and no more problem.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

If people don't have one of the newer motion sensor fans, then I usually recommend they get a digital timer installed. Great items.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

RH said:


> Also, are the HO's smokers by any chance?


Or the previous HO's is what I'm thinking...wondering if it needed to be cleaned (or at least primed) prior to that coating being applied. If it's checking, it's an adhesion problem usually...something prevented a tight bond.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

jeffnc said:


> I'm sure the Aura Bath paint can be sold here (i.e. the customer will pay for that.) Now I'm wondering if anyone has any comment about my Gardz idea for primer, while there was one suggestion for BIN and other suggestions for something standard (such as 123).


I'd go straight to oil. Not latex. When in doubt about what's on or in the surface, ime oil will fix just about anything.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Once the film is fully cured it is inert and no longer subject to surfactants escaping the film. Moisture acts as a barrier and retards or impedes ingredients that normally escape the film during drying and curing fall back on or leach and cling to the surface. It usually happens around pictures, towel racks, or in corners near the ceiling. Colder walls during painting condense moisture quickly and exacerbate the problem. Adding more paint is not the solution. No cleaning products because you would be adding soap to what is already soap. Some of the "greener" cleaners work well in conjunction with micro fiber and warm water. If there is a pronounced profile left by heavier nap roller then the paint may have been applied too thick contributing to the problem even after a year or more. If you skim coat make sure you remove the surfactant before doing so.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

NACE said:


> Adding more paint is not the solution.


Maybe not just slapping on another coat, but a proper sealer should stop the base coat problems and should allow for a good top coat, which won't have these issues. Unless there's something I'm missing? While I don't _normally_ recommend sealing surfactant leach since it usually solves itself over time, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work if the problems are continuous.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Maybe not just slapping on another coat, but a proper sealer should stop the base coat problems and should allow for a good top coat, which won't have these issues. Unless there's something I'm missing? While I don't _normally_ recommend sealing surfactant leach since it usually solves itself over time, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work if the problems are continuous.


And since the OP was being tasked with painting the walls, regardless of whether it was leaching, contaminents, or something else, he still needed a process for prepping and painting.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I've had good luck with the following in satin on rental-grade bath/kitchen repaints. Even freshened a section of an old, mostly unfinished basement with it:

ZINSSER®
PERMA-WHITE® Mold & Mildew-Proof™* Interior Paint

Otherwise, I stick with Aura bath and spa. Hard to complain spreading matte.

Would like to try BM Kitchen & Bath one day. Need the right situation for satin.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Gough said:


> We kept trying different products and finally tried Zinnser Perma-White Bathroom paint. It lasted 2-3 times longer than almost all of the other products*
> 
> I'm not sure if that particukar product has been discontinued or merely re-labelled. A search just now came up with "Perma-White Mold and Mildew Resistant Interior Paint
> 
> ...


 The Zinnser Perma-White had been my go-to bathroom paint(especially ceilings) for better than 10 years. It was not not user friendly, but it always did the job. I could confidently fix a problem ceiling and I used it on new ceilings as well, so there would be no problems. I had not one incident of failure. Many times I was a hero for under $30/gal.!

Last year I had a brand new bathroom ceiling fail after priming and 2 coating with out any logical explanation...very embarrassing! The product I recall was much thinner in the can and was either defective or more likely had been changed.

Since then I have switched to BM Bath & Spa...so far so good, but I wish I could get something other than a matte finish. Many people in this market expect/want more of a shine on a bathroom ceiling.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CliffK said:


> Since then I have switched to BM Bath & Spa...so far so good, but I wish I could get something other than a matte finish. *Many people in this market expect/want more of a shine on a bathroom ceiling.*



Do they stock this near you?

Benjamin Moore Kitchen and Bath Paint
Kitchen & Bath is a top quality, 100% *acrylic satin finish enamel designed for use in kitchens and bathrooms.* It is ideal for use over clean, gloss surfaces, and resists the growth of mildew even under humid conditions.

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...and-bath-paint?lang=en_US&role=C#advs=0&tab=3


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CliffK said:


> The Zinnser Perma-White had been my go-to bathroom paint(especially ceilings) for better than 10 years. It was not not user friendly, but it always did the job. I could confidently fix a problem ceiling and I used it on new ceilings as well, so there would be no problems. I had not one incident of failure. Many times I was a hero for under $30/gal.!
> 
> Last year I had a brand new bathroom ceiling fail after priming and 2 coating with out any logical explanation...very embarrassing! The product I recall was much thinner in the can and was either defective or more likely had been changed.
> 
> Since then I have switched to BM Bath & Spa...so far so good, but I wish I could get something other than a matte finish. Many people in this market expect/want more of a shine on a bathroom ceiling.


Cheapened to stay price competitive possibly?


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I paint paint said:


> Do they stock this near you?
> 
> Benjamin Moore Kitchen and Bath Paint
> Kitchen & Bath is a top quality, 100% *acrylic satin finish enamel designed for use in kitchens and bathrooms.* It is ideal for use over clean, gloss surfaces, and resists the growth of mildew even under humid conditions.
> ...


 They do, although it has been pushed to the back of the shelf in favor of the Aura Bath & Spa. It was popular before the Bath & Spa came around, but at that time I was hooked on the Perma-White & never really got into it. I do believe it still is an option, but one I have never tried for a problem ceiling.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

PACman said:


> Cheapened to stay price competitive possibly?


 Most certainly...it's the new "inflation". Price only goes up a little, but the quality goes way down!!


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CliffK said:


> *They do, although it has been pushed to the back of the shelf in favor of the Aura Bath & Spa.* It was popular before the Bath & Spa came around, but at that time I was hooked on the Perma-White & never really got into it. I do believe it still is an option, but one I have never tried for a problem ceiling.


Same here. Not stocked nearly as far or wide as Aura B&S.


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