# Advice on wall of trim



## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

Customer has asked that I paint his new wall that has a lot of trim. I'm not going to spray it. I hate the waste and the setup. All the plastic, and tape, and etc. So my plan is to roll the paint on and back brush. I'm planning on painting from the top / down. It is going to be white on white. Wall is BM Regal Select White Flat. The trim is Regal Select white pearl. I'm planning on using Floetrol in the trim paint to decrease dry time and promote better leveling. 

Customer has already bought the paint. Would Advance level that much better to warrant buying that and returning the BM Select? The HO doesn't want a glossy / shiny finish. 

Any suggestions on what you might do other then spraying the trim. It's not going to happen. I'm not that experienced and I HATE the extra waste.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

The Floetrol will increase, not decrease, dry time. That's what promotes the leveling.


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

Lightningboy65 said:


> The Floetrol will increase, not decrease, dry time. That's what promotes the leveling.


We mean the same thing. To me a decrease in time is it takes longer. But as I type that it doesn't make sense, lol.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cardgunner said:


> We mean the same thing. To me a decrease in time is it takes longer. But as I type that it doesn't make sense, lol.


Well, words do have meaning, and language works best if we are all on the same page.:biggrin:

I was surprised when I read your OP, as you generally seem to know what's going on But at least you realize it doesn't make sense. I'd be lying if I said I never found myself in similar circumstances.

I think I might be inclined to go with the Advance, just seems to give a nicer finish and would give a nicer finish when applied with a mini velour roller, which those large flat trim boards are screaming to be painted with.:smile:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*If I were doing this.........*



cardgunner said:


> Customer has asked that I paint his new wall that has a lot of trim. I'm not going to spray it. I hate the waste and the setup. All the plastic, and tape, and etc. So my plan is to roll the paint on and back brush. I'm planning on painting from the top / down. It is going to be white on white. Wall is BM Regal Select White Flat. The trim is Regal Select white pearl. I'm planning on using Floetrol in the trim paint to decrease dry time and promote better leveling.
> 
> Customer has already bought the paint. Would Advance level that much better to warrant buying that and returning the BM Select? The HO doesn't want a glossy / shiny finish.
> 
> Any suggestions on what you might do other then spraying the trim. It's not going to happen. I'm not that experienced and I HATE the extra waste.


Without standing there looking directly at the walls and trim to decide exactly which brush and mini roller I would use (I have tote boxes filled with both in a wide variety), I would probably do this as follows:

1. Tape off whatever needs taping off (the floor?), then spackle and prime whatever needs.

2. Cut in trim edges and areas that mini roller won't adequately reach with trim paint once, twice if needed.

3. Mini roll either the vertical OR the horizontal sections of trim, but not both at the same time, making nice clean lines where the vertical trim butts up against the horizontal. This way you won't need to add any Floetrol because you will never be running into semi-dried trim paint with fresh. I assume that the owner is not having you try to make the butt joints dissappear, so the joint will allow for a visual break as far as keeping a wet edge goes. I would probably not brush anything out as the mini roller will leave a fairly smooth and uniform surface, but that is something you have to decide on.

4. While the horizontal (or vertical) trim is drying I would start cutting in the wall panels with the wall paint using a small brush to bring it out about an inch.

5. When done cutting in the walls, I would roll a 2nd coat on the previously painted trim if needed, then cut in the wall panels a second time if needed.

6. When the 1st section of trim is done, roll out a coat on the unpainted section of trim.

My idea is to keep going round robin so that you are always painting one section while waiting for the one you just painted to dry. Also, the butt joints are ideal for allowing you to paint the trim in 2 isolated section and always keep a very wet edge with no need for Floetrol at all.

For the trim I would probably use a Wooster 5/16" x 4" Micro Plush Jumbo Koter mini roller as it has a very good edge for rolling the butt joints on the trim. I use the 9" version of this to roll out flat doors and they come out very smooth.

https://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers/catalog/micro-plush/

For the panels of wall I would probably use the Sherwin Williams Contractor Series Woven Mini Rollers in a 3/8" nap.

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/contractor-series-woven-mini-rollers

If I would be leaving any section to repaint for an extended period of time I would put the mini rollers in zip-lock baggies and clean up.

Sorry for being so verbose, but at 11:45 am it should appear obvious to those at work that I am currently not at work. 

futtyos


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

You couldn't ask for a more complete answer^^^.


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

futtyos said:


> 3. Mini roll either the vertical OR the horizontal sections of trim, but not both at the same time, making nice clean lines where the vertical trim butts up against the horizontal. This way you won't need to add any Floetrol because you will never be running into semi-dried trim paint with fresh. I assume that the owner is not having you try to make the butt joints dissappear, so the joint will allow for a visual break as far as keeping a wet edge goes. I would probably not brush anything out as the mini roller will leave a fairly smooth and uniform surface, but that is something you have to decide on.
> 
> futtyos


Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.

After the Horizontal dries would you roll the vertical over the horizontal? so the cross sections will have 4 coats on them at days end ? 

Thank you for time and advice.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

usually


Lightningboy65 said:


> You couldn't ask for a more complete answer^^^.


Odd, since futtyos is well know for his brevity (writes the guy often afflicted himself with keyboard diarrhea).


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Caulk joint perfection?*



cardgunner said:


> Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.
> 
> After the Horizontal dries would you roll the vertical over the horizontal? so the cross sections will have 4 coats on them at days end ?
> 
> Thank you for time and advice.


cardgunner, my best guess is that even if you get a smoother finish on the joints by caulking them, they are still leave definate lines that can be rolled up to, and not ove, by your mini roller. If you were to over lap just a little on the butt joints, this might show up as a slightly extra sheen, but if you do 2 coats I don't think that the owner will notice anything. If you try to keep a wet edge on this big maze, I don't think you will succeed and this will be seen much more by the client than any very slight sheen differences on butt joint overlaps.

If you were using Advance I might agree that you could keep a wet edge, but I have my doubts about that when using Regal Select Pearl.

You might try using a wide spackle knife against the edge of the butt joints when rolling against them to avoid overlapping where you have already painted.

I am also guessing that if you do it the way I suggest, the owner will not be able to tell unless he stands there and watches you paint. Good luck,

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ditch the floetrol and use extender instead. For the same price, you could use cabinet coat, advance or even scuff-X, nd any of those will level out great.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

mini velour roller! those are my favorite minis! Closest thing you will ever get to a a sprayed look without spraying. Bonus, you would get more material on with a mini roller than by spraying.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

jennifertemple said:


> mini velour roller! those are my favorite minis! Closest thing you will ever get to a a sprayed look without spraying. Bonus, you would get more material on with a mini roller than by spraying.


I agree that certain mini rolled applications can provide a more consistent finish than brushing. But I would disagree that, given identical paint properties, a rolled application provides a thicker paint film than spraying. The reason is the slightest of pressure with a roller, or brush, decreases the WFT compared to a steady spray application that builds up an uninterrupted WFT.

However, there are times when rollers can provide thicker finishes, but no where near a leveled finish as from spraying.


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## CynLei (Aug 5, 2019)

cardgunner said:


> Very good advice. And doing it in sections was something I didn't think of. However the HO does not want lines and is looking for a solid look. I'm caulking the butt joints and hoping for the best. To get a true solid would have required more attention during the install. It's good, made even great, but not all the joints are exactly flush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m concerned about caulking the butt joints if the HO doesn’t want the seams to show. I’m pretty good at caulking, but it never gives me a smooth enough surface to hide joints. I’d lean toward using a thin bead of wood filler or something you can use a knife on to smooth out. Again, maybe it’s just me, but smoothing caulk to hide flat joints doesn’t work well to hide the joint.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I agree that certain mini rolled applications can provide a more consistent finish than brushing. But I would disagree that, given identical paint properties, a rolled application provides a thicker paint film than spraying. The reason is the slightest of pressure with a roller, or brush, decreases the WFT compared to a steady spray application that builds up an uninterrupted WFT.
> 
> However, there are times when rollers can provide thicker finishes, but no where near a leveled finish as from spraying.


I guess I have seen far to much light spray, entirely possible that spay could put on more material than rolling or brush but I have not seen that. A per a velour roller, it provides a beautiful finish but I always used them with a light touch. Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

jennifertemple said:


> I guess I have seen far to much light spray, entirely possible that spay could put on more material than rolling or brush but I have not seen that. A per a velour roller, it provides a beautiful finish but I always used them with a light touch. Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!


The instances where I see too thin of a sprayed coating, is when the paint was thinned too much, the passes were too quick , or when it was sprayed from a rattle can. 

Whenever I had to gauge the WFT of a coating, I found that spraying would consistently build up a quicker WFT than rolling, because the slightest pressure placed on a roller reduces the film thickness in the valleys, even though it's pulling paint up in the peaks.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I think people may tend to apply the finish a bit thinner when spraying, but there is no practical reason a roller would provide a thicker paint film. Whatever the maximum WFT of a coating, it is attainable with either roller or spray. One experienced in spraying can easily obtain the same thickness. One inexperienced in spraying is going to be hesitant, worrying about runs, and will likely apply a thinner coat. No doubt a sprayer will yield a smoother finish, although I have seen some pretty darn nice roll jobs.

Caulk will provide a more flexible joint filler than any filler. When filling joints in casework, this is critical as there will be movement of the joints as ambient conditions change. While a filler which allows skim coating, to blend the joint ,may initially hide the joint better, it has been my experience that eventually the patch will yield to the movement, revealing unsightly hairline cracks. I'd rather seal the joint with caulk and have the joint be a little more visible, but remain permanently sealed.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

jennifertemple said:


> Pressure rolling never works with any kind of roller!


Have you ever had to roll block filler on cinder block. I mean real old fashioned cinder block, not concrete block. Pock marks, holes, and voids everywhere!!!:biggrin:


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## CynLei (Aug 5, 2019)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Caulk will provide a more flexible joint filler than any filler. When filling joints in casework, this is critical as there will be movement of the joints as ambient conditions change. While a filler which allows skim coating, to blend the joint ,may initially hide the joint better, it has been my experience that eventually the patch will yield to the movement, revealing unsightly hairline cracks. I'd rather seal the joint with caulk and have the joint be a little more visible, but remain permanently sealed.



I understand the need for flexibility...probably more-so with this area and temperature changes. Makes complete sense! Hopefully the HO understands that seams won’t likely be invisible...and would certainly much look worse later with cracks from an inflexible joint filler.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

I find for getting a hard/not gummy finish using a "normal" latex paint on trim, or even something like Proclassic, Solo, or Regal Select where they're sort of inbetween wall paint and a proper trim paint oil or shellac priming really is needed to get it feeling harder and long term durable. Plus, with both primers you could actually sand out most or all of your brush marks or roller stipple. 

For rolling, I think your best "spraylike" finish would probably come from Wooster "Red Feather" roller covers. These give about as good of a finish or even a little better finish than a foam cover, but without the amount of droplets the foam ones make. The secret to using those or any roller on trim is to basically roll in the same direction with the nap down, and actually look at the nap when rolling, and only roll "down" as if you roll "up" you'll get more stipple. I don't mean literally up and down, but the nap compressed vs decompressed. 

Another good cover to try, too, would be the Arroworthy 3/8" microfiber covers in a 4" or 6" cover. Those can level off/leave a worse finish depending on your paint, especially if it's too thick, but with the right paint they look as good as a foam or the Wooster Red Feathers, and their paint holding capacity is pretty enormous, which can minimizing flashing by allowing you to just keep going while rolling. 

For the paint itself, my only complaint about BM paints in general is they seem to have a pretty high sensitivity overall to environmental conditions as far as leveling or flashing goes. I think the pearl sheen of Regal has a slower recoat time/dry time than other sheens, but you'll want to make sure the room temperature and humidity is good. You'd ideally want something like 65F with some humidity but not too much as then you can run into adhesion or curing issues (fog on the windows means it can be too high...) In an occupied house in winter it can be kind of bad for painting, as a lot of people want to turn their heat way up, and there's less humidity in general. I've not used Floetrol in trim paint, the most I've ever done was go with the up to 8 oz water, and that was it. It helps, but it can't totally overcome the environmental conditions.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Have you ever had to roll block filler on cinder block. I mean real old fashioned cinder block, not concrete block. Pock marks, holes, and voids everywhere!!!:biggrin:


No, but if I did I'd use a really plushy sleeve! I have seen people practically ring a roller out on a wall though. That might work if you want to do 4 coats. (Never tried that myself.)


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Have you ever had to roll block filler on cinder block. I mean real old fashioned cinder block, not concrete block. Pock marks, holes, and voids everywhere!!!:biggrin:


Yes I have and it is no fun.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

jennifertemple said:


> No, but if I did I'd use a really plushy sleeve! I have seen people practically ring a roller out on a wall though. That might work if you want to do 4 coats. (Never tried that myself.)


Well it works like this.....load a 1" nap roller with paint until the roller weighs about 5 pounds, transfer roller to said cinder block wall, lean into roller with all of your weight and force, and roll. By the time your roller is devoid of paint you will have covered about 2 sq. ft.. Repeat until wall is completed, which will be about 5 times the amount of time and effort a "normal" substrate would require.:vs_mad:


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Well it works like this.....load a 1" nap roller with paint until the roller weighs about 5 pounds, transfer roller to said cinder block wall, lean into roller with all of your weight and force, and roll. By the time your roller is devoid of paint you will have covered about 2 sq. ft.. Repeat until wall is completed, which will be about 5 times the amount of time and effort a "normal" substrate would require.:vs_mad:


What you forgot to mention is that it needs to be at least 12' above the floor. And you may be lucky to get 2 s.f.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Caulk will provide a more flexible joint filler than any filler. When filling joints in casework, this is critical as there will be movement of the joints as ambient conditions change. While a filler which allows skim coating, to blend the joint ,may initially hide the joint better, it has been my experience that eventually the patch will yield to the movement, revealing unsightly hairline cracks. I'd rather seal the joint with caulk and have the joint be a little more visible, but remain permanently sealed.


It’s always been standard practice for my business not to use wood filler on end-to-end or on end-to edge joints. It’s typically a glue joint and is the trimmers responsibility to address the joints during installation. When they don’t or on a repaint, the most I do is flush out the joints by blocking them and apply a void filling glue with a putty knife, pressing the glue into the open joint, taping off the joint first to allow for easier clean-up. A high solids primer does the rest, making the joint disappear. I find that a void filling glue reduces the chances of the joints opening up whereas filler can develop hairlines, sometimes in a matter of days. 

Below are a few photos of some stile and rail framed raised panels I repainted in 2009, the photos being taken this morning 10 years after I refinished them, having used the above described method to repair the open joints where the stiles terminated at the rails. Not one joint exhibited cracking, not even the slightest hairline. All the miters on the flat stock casings in the home still remain perfectly intact after 10 years, those being repaired utilizing glue rather than caulk or wood filler. Just my $.02 as an alternative to caulking and/or wood filler. (Please excuse the coarseness of my finish work, the project was for a family member, falling short of what I’d typically put out for a paying client.)


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> It’s always been standard practice for my business not to use wood filler on end-to-end or on end-to edge joints. It’s typically a glue joint and is the trimmers responsibility to address the joints during installation.


Therein lies the key....did the casing man glue his joint. All too often the answer is no. Of course, as the value of the home increases, the higher the likelihood the installation was done properly. At least one would think that to be the case. I've seen mid level houses ($500-800,000) where there was little to no glue used on the casing.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Well it works like this.....load a 1" nap roller with paint until the roller weighs about 5 pounds, transfer roller to said cinder block wall, lean into roller with all of your weight and force, and roll. By the time your roller is devoid of paint you will have covered about 2 sq. ft.. Repeat until wall is completed, which will be about 5 times the amount of time and effort a "normal" substrate would require.:vs_mad:


Get yo'self a 1 3/4" next time.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Get yo'self a 1 3/4" next time.



Then change the aforementioned weight from 5 to 8.5 pounds!:biggrin:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> (Please excuse the coarseness of my finish work, the project was for a family member, falling short of what I’d typically put out for a paying client.)


That is a technique I truly wish I were aware of while still active in the trade. I have never even heard of anything of the sorts.

As for the quality of the finish, looks top notch to me. Perhaps the photos betray the flaws....but I doubt it!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> That is a technique I truly wish I were aware of while still active in the trade. I have never even heard of anything of the sorts.
> 
> As for the quality of the finish, looks top notch to me. Perhaps the photos betray the flaws....but I doubt it!


I’ve spent the past what seems like months now, removing Bondo and wood fillers on an exterior re-paint of a fairly new home. Rather than flushing out the joints by hand blocking or machine sanding, both the trimmers and original painters appeared to have had a Bondo and wood filler party, flushing out the joints utilizing umpteen gallons of fillers, “everything” popping off. It’s just another reason reinforcing the idea that fillers shouldn’t be used on joints. For the exteriors I’ve been flushing out the joints by power sanding and hand blocking, jamming some thinned out oil primer in them, and pressing in Big Stretch or sometimes using construction adhesive with a putty knife. So far so good and I can barely see them through the finished product. 

As far as the interior joints, having had a small cabinet & furniture shop which I decommissioned in 2010, I had done a lot of experimenting with glues, testing breaking strengths on new assemblies and re-glues with pretty much the entire gamut of glues, epoxies, and hot melts as an alternative to fillers for open joints, some but not all outperforming conventional fillers. 

As far as the project in the photos, the assemblies were fabricated and installed by a DIYer, the joints being pretty gnarly, being pretty certain the repairs were destined to fail within the first year, only to be proven wrong. 

Sometimes I’ll shore up joints with pin nails or 18 gauge wire nails wherever the assemblies permit, the fasteners pulling the trim in tighter and providing pressure on the glued joints making for an effective repair particularly on mitered casings. A strategically placed fastener in combination with glue often does wonders on joint repairs, not taking too much additional time. Being a painter, it’s often difficult getting the money to take things to the nines.


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

Alchemy Redux said:


> For the exteriors I’ve been flushing out the joints by power sanding and hand blocking, jamming some thinned out oil primer in them, and pressing in Big Stretch or sometimes using construction adhesive with a putty knife. So far so good and I can barely see them through the finished product.


This is great stuff to hear. In an earlier comment you said "void filling glue". What is that? Is there a brand that you use that I could research?

Hand Blocking? Is that just hand sanding with a block or does that mean something else?

Big Stretch? I found the items below for Big Stretch and it appears you are talking about a brand of caulking materials. Is that correct
https://www.sashco.com/products/big-stretch/

I really enjoy reading your approach on this. 

For the record I caulked the joints, not to hide them but to fill the void. I got one coat on the trim and it's looking OK. I went with Advance and will doing a second, or a third, and lightly sanding between them. I've used Advance once before and never noticed how thin it is. 

Thank you again for your generosity of expertise.


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