# Called the EPA today



## DeanV

I wanted to get clarification on a couple issues direct from the EPA.

1. On a pre-78 home that has lead paint (interior) that has been painted over several times with non-lead paint. If you sand the trim or walls (the non-lead paint) for adhesion only and do not break through, do you need to follow the RRP rules? 

The Answer: Yes, you do. It is the EPA's position that you cannot be certain you are not sanding into lead paint so the rules must be followed if you sand more than 6 sq. ft.

2. Powerwashing: Again, in several layers of non lead paint is present over lead paint, all loose paint is removed prior to power washing, do you still need to collect the wash water? Yes. Again, cannot be certain there is no lead paint exposed and it cannot be ALL removed (EPA's position is that all lead paint can never be removed from a surfaced), so must follow the rules.

3. Flushing collected water into sewer system: They allow it, but check with local water authority, they might not allow it.


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## johnpaint

That's the government for you, they have to treat everyone as if they are totally stupid.


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## aaron61

Going to look at 1 (exterior) this morning.I'll probably tell them I cannot do it.How in the world can I collect all the water and how do I know I couldn't get blamed for the natural run off around the house from rain?
Seems crazy to not let the water filter naturally through the ground but to pour it directly into the sewer system where it becomes drinking water!!!!!!!


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## daArch

Aaron,

Your community drinks the sewer water? I think you may have worded that incompletely.

When water "filters naturally" through the ground, the lead would be left in the soil, contaminating it even more that it prolly already is. Planting vegetables in contaminated soil is already a big issue.

Most communities will filter and process sewer water before discharging into whatever they discharge it into.

The EPA does not know how every community treats sewer water, thus they advise that one check with the local water authority. 

Now, as to your upcoming estimate. I've been thinking about a different approach than trying to explain and rationalize the cost of compliance to an uniformed HO. The conversation would go something like this:

"Hello, All Town Painting"
"I'd like an estimate for painting my house"
"I'd be happy to, but first one question, when was your house built"
"1962"
"Oh, I'm sorry, with the new lead containment laws in effect, I will not be able to paint your home"
"What? What do you mean? Why can't you paint my house"
"Oh it's the new laws the EPA has mandated to protect children and the environment from lead poisoning. I'm certified to do the work, but have decided not to subject my customers to the added costs"
"How much extra money are we talking about"
"On an average about $100 - $150 per day while we scrape and sand. Once we start painting we do not need to contain any lead chips and dust"
"Oh, I see. So how can I get my house painted without these added costs?"
"Find a painting crew that is willing not to follow the law and risk being fined $37,500 a day."
"WOW, that's a lot. So you say your are certified? By whom?"
"By the EPA. I have been trained on the correct procedures and am registered as a certified renovator"
"Well, I need my house painted. How many days do you typically spend scraping and sanding?"
"Depends on the house. Sometimes two days, sometimes five days"
"OK, so you are talking between $300 and $750 to not be fined $37,000 a day? Why don't you come out and take a look"

The idea is that you tell them you CAN NOT paint their house. Put THEM on the defensive. Then play them and manipulate the conversation so the practically BEG you to do it. 

Yah I know, a whacky idea.


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## aaron61

Yes,that was stupid...sorry!
I am seriously concerned about doing everything correctly then having someone do a soil sample later and blaming us for the existing contamination.
Do you really see this as about $150 a day. How much does a water collection system cost and how much is a pollution rider for insurance??


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## DeanV

I have not got the pollution ride yet, but was told it is $1500. From what I have read here, that is one of the lower prices. If you do more than 1 million in sales it is higher.

For collection, I guess it depends on if you can construct some kind of plastic sheeting on wooden frames to collect and funnel the water into buckets. The water collection stuff I have seen is based on the water from power washing running onto hard surfaces and being directed to a water collection vacuum type device. For what we deal with, I do not see those vacuum systems working well.

So far, I have $1000 into a HEPA vac, sander, and discs. (Festool, figured if I was buying something for dust collection of hazardous materials I might as well get one of the best rated systems including the Festool sanders). I can see a couple more sanders in my future, a couple longer hoses (need to be able to get up 3 stories on a lot of the older homes). Festool anti-static hoses (so they do not collect dust) are NOT CHEAP. Over $100 for the hoses. I think I will get a hose splitter as well so two workers can run sanders off one vacuum. Once the vacuum and sanders are all purchased and everything is set up with the accessories I need, I think I will have over 2000 into sanders and vacuum.



I still think vegetation killing is going to be a problem. If you elevation the plastic to be above plants, then you cannot work on it. They want the plastic flat on the ground as much as possible as well, since if you have it all up and down and uneven, chips are more likely to blow off the plastic. The elevated edge they want you to make with a 2x4 or whatever will not help hold chips if the plastic is higher than the edge.

I think it was in CA a few years back, but there was somewhere that either did or was going to start recycling sewage water directly into drinking water.

I know the first job I do the cost of doing it will be under estimated, but will hopefully provide a baseline. Miles of plastic, caution tape, warning signs, etc.

One thing that the EPA also has not factored into the cost is risk. There is WAY too much risk to price these jobs at our normal prices in the end. If you are going to do a lot of this work, you would almost have to price the risk of getting a fine to the job and try to get a "war chest" saved up in case you get hit for infractions.


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## daArch

Aaron,

I was not thinking about water collection in that cost. Sorry. And that was just an example of what one would say to the HO. Once everyone gets systems in place, they can figure more accurate per diem costs. 

Dean,

I am wondering in the EPA is going out in the field and being more worried about the guys who are not following EXACT procedures or about the guys who are obviously not certified and not doing ANY containment.

I have a feeling that if they see the EPA firm registration number, the plastic on the ground, the yellow tape, and the containment being dealt with, they will move on to the house with grinders and torches and no plastic.

But that's just my optimism speaking


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## DeanV

Dean,

I am wondering in the EPA is going out in the field and being more worried about the guys who are not following EXACT procedures or about the guys who are obviously not certified and not doing ANY containment.

I have a feeling that if they see the EPA firm registration number, the plastic on the ground, the yellow tape, and the containment being dealt with, they will move on to the house with grinders and torches and no plastic.

But that's just my optimism speaking[/quote]

But if that is the truth, it would not hurt as much, so the RRP program would not be working!:jester:


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## aaron61

The exteriors are where my biggest concerns are.This is where most of the change in procedure will be for us.I have a question on procedure. I just left a potential customer(exterior).Provided them with our proposal.Their home tested positive for lead.I left her the pamphlet to go over and told her I would need her signature in order for us to do the project for her.Do you guys wait there for them to read it and get a sign off then or do you do as I did and leave it?
I also explained to her that there will be an $250 for containment costs. I'm sure, like others have stated, that the first 1 will be a learning curve for pricing and I will probably loose money!!!


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## WiseGuys Painting

this whole thing is friggin retarded. collect all that water and then dump it in the bathtub? if they have a septic tank it will travel right outside and then be dispersed into the soil. dump it in a storm drain? that goes into creeks/rivers. do these stupid basterds have a place to drop off the water? my guess is no, and if they do it will be a long way to go to dump some ****ing water. and if they had ever power washed they would know that the water doesnt just flow down the wall in a pretty little stream into your pretty little funnel, it sprays and mists everywhere. it is impossible to contain.


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## RCP

Under RRP, pressure washing is ok. RRP Rule does not address the wastewater issue. That is governed by your State/Local DEQ and OHSA.

Wiseguy, you are not going to be held liable for the lead in the soil unless it can be shown that you were negligent in your process. The rule is designed to eliminate the spreading of dust from working, not to abate.


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## RCP

aaron61 said:


> The exteriors are where my biggest concerns are.This is where most of the change in procedure will be for us.I have a question on procedure. I just left a potential customer(exterior).Provided them with our proposal.Their home tested positive for lead.I left her the pamphlet to go over and told her I would need her signature in order for us to do the project for her.Do you guys wait there for them to read it and get a sign off then or do you do as I did and leave it?
> I also explained to her that there will be an $250 for containment costs. I'm sure, like others have stated, that the first 1 will be a learning curve for pricing and I will probably loose money!!!


Good question, I have thought about sending it out before you go on estimate, not sure how that would work. I'd leave it, unless you are getting a contract signed at the visit.
I believe the rule states you must get the signature 7 days before renovation starts, and no more than 60 days. I can find the link if you'd like.


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> Good question, I have thought about sending it out before you go on estimate, not sure how that would work. I'd leave it, unless you are getting a contract signed at the visit.
> I believe the rule states you must get the signature 7 days before renovation starts, and no more than 60 days. I can find the link if you'd like.


Couldn't decide on best procedure for me.I wonder how many books I will be giving away & how many they will collect??? My guess is they will only get the 1 and the other guys will tell her I'm crazy:blink:


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## RCP

aaron61 said:


> Couldn't decide on best procedure for me.I wonder how many books I will be giving away & how many they will collect??? My guess is they will only get the 1 and the other guys will tell her I'm crazy:blink:


And it may be a point in your favor if the HO is interested in more than the lowest price!

Check with Sherwin Williams, I got a bunch from them for free.


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## WiseGuys Painting

RCP said:


> Under RRP, pressure washing is ok. RRP Rule does not address the wastewater issue. That is governed by your State/Local DEQ and OHSA.
> 
> Wiseguy, you are not going to be held liable for the lead in the soil unless it can be shown that you were negligent in your process. The rule is designed to eliminate the spreading of dust from working, not to abate.


what do you mean power washing is ok? that was part of his origonal post when he caled epa. i havent taken the class yet but i can see alot of lawsuits comin out of this in the future. i am going to bid on apartments exterior and they may be older than 78, do i have to follow rules or did i hear about commercial bldgs exemp? i cant remember.


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## WiseGuys Painting

aaron61 said:


> Couldn't decide on best procedure for me.I wonder how many books I will be giving away & how many they will collect??? My guess is they will only get the 1 and the other guys will tell her I'm crazy:blink:


id like to see that link.


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## RCP

WiseGuys Painting said:


> what do you mean power washing is ok? that was part of his origonal post when he caled epa. i havent taken the class yet but i can see alot of lawsuits comin out of this in the future. i am going to bid on apartments exterior and they may be older than 78, do i have to follow rules or did i hear about commercial bldgs exemp? i cant remember.


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif] *Pressure* *washing* is not a prohibited practice under the RRP Rule. *Pressure* *washing* is subject to the same containment requirements as other permissible work practices. Before beginning the renovation, the firm must isolate the work area so that no dust or debris (including in the waste water) leaves the work area while the renovation is being performed. In addition, the firm must maintain the integrity of the containment by ensuring that any plastic or other impermeable materials are not torn or displaced and taking any other steps necessary to ensure that no dust or debris leaves the work area while the renovation is being performed. The firm must also ensure that containment is installed in such a manner that it does not interfere with occupant and worker egress in an emergency.[/FONT]
Source 

Commercial buildings are slated to be added in September, but apartments are not commercial.
For a job of that size, and if you think the presence of lead is small, might be best to have it inspected, which is not the same as swab testing.


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## WiseGuys Painting

for you guys that have taken the class. do they actually teach you how to contain the lead? do they show you examples of containment procedures? do they tell you,, if you do it like we say, you cannot be fined? for example osha has specific laws, hardhats/osha approved, safety harness/ osha approved, respirator/ osha approved, etc. you know that if you have your hardhat and safety harness on when they drive up you wont get a fine. it seems like there are too many grey areas in these epa laws. i dont care what kind of vaccumm or plastic or whatever, there is always dust. i would not mind complying ,and charging extra, if it didnt seem like an impossible procedure, which leaves me liable for lawsuits. it is kinda like having clean water, there is always some contaminates in water no matter how much you filter it. if the epa rolled up and tested the water coming out of your faucet im sure it wouldnt be 100% pure. so if they roll up and test dust on the floor of a kids room and find lead, you lose your business. it just seems impossible to comply


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## oldpaintdoc

*Impossible!*

It is impossible to comply 100%.
That's the way the EPA wants it.


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## vermontpainter

All you guys that are spending time calling the epa, reading about rrp, talking about rrp, and writing and responding to threads about rrp, I hope you are charging for it.


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> All you guys that are spending time calling the epa, reading about rrp, talking about rrp, and writing and responding to threads about rrp, I hope you are charging for it.


I'm printing invoices now! 
Just can't decide if it is an indirect cost, overhead or time and material!:jester:
What is my hourly rate?


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## DeanV

Who do you think we are? Lawyers? Only they can invoice for stuff like this and get away with it.


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## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> I'm printing invoices now!
> Just can't decide if it is an indirect cost, overhead or time and material!:jester:
> What is my hourly rate?


You shouldnt do any billing until you get this stuff straight. Actually, I take that back. If you are billing, that means there will be money coming. Any money that comes is profit. Right?


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## straight_lines

For me to take the risk of being blamed for contaminating someones yard its gonna be more than $150 a day you can count on it.

Probably be at least $30,000 to remove and replace 5' of soil and then you have wiring, and irrigation, expensive landscaping. What a fooking nightmare. 

I haven't talked to my insurance agent yet, so I wouldn't have a clue what it would cost me to be covered on that liability. 

The first member that comes up with a working wash water containment system please post pictures/video ffs. Even the prototypes they should be good for a laugh at least.


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## aaron61

here ya go


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## straight_lines

Suppose that may work great, gonna have to put down plastic and let the vacuum pull the water from there. I don't even wanna think how much that unit costs. Granted I wouldn't need the heater, but I would bet that costs more than both my truck and van combined.


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## aaron61

Yea,but it sure is sweet ain't it???


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## MaizeandBluePainter

*Cost of cleanup*

Just finished the class today. I seem to work mostly on pre-1978 houses, but I don't think I'll have to do an EPA-style cleanup with the space-suit, plastic enclosure and hepa vac. 

I'm working on a decision tree for specifically avoiding that scenario. Here's the beginning of it. 

1.) Is the house built before 1978? If you think it is, call the city and ask regardless of what the homeowner says. If the house was built after 1978, YOU CAN MAKE AS MUCH DUST AS YOU WANT! 

By the way, if the house was built before 1978, and you haven't registered with the EPA, you shouldn't paint it. My instructor said the EPA will rack up a few contractors early on and make an example of them, because that's how they roll out new legislation. 

2.) If the house is pre-1978, get a test kit for $20 and test every surface that you plan to paint. If there is no lead paint in the area where you plan to work, then you are not disturbing lead paint and THE NEW RULES DO NOT APPLY. So just paint it. 

3.) If you find lead paint, ask yourself whether there is a way to paint the room without disturbing the old paint. 

Personally, I don't think that turning a nursery into a toxic waste dump and then cleaning it is a good plan. The rules basically say that you have to clean twice with a swiffer and then you can go -- you don't have to test again and make sure there is not lead. I'm not qualified for lead abatement, so why would I knowingly fill your house with lead dust? Especially knowing now what it does to kids?

If I can get away with washing walls, filling nail holes with spackle and "sanding" with a wet sponge, I will offer that to customers who have children and a confirmed lead paint problem. On that plan, I have disturbed zero square feet of lead paint.

If that type of customer doesn't like boogery paint, maybe they'll take wallpaper. But I'm planning not to poison children; and if you're conscience doesn't bother you on that front, think of the legal liability.

4.) If there's lead paint indoors, and you're willing to deal with it, build a containment for the smallest area possible. The lead paint you find may be only on windows or on a door. A containment of plastic sheeting and zip poles slightly larger than what you're working on should be adequate and you won't have to spend a whole day cleaning the rest of the room with baby wipes. 

And if you end up closing off the room, get your sanding and scraping done on whatever item has lead paint -- hopefully a small area -- then do your cleaning and verification and get rid of all the plastic before you start to paint. Once you have cleaned the room, you don't have to paint it with a space suit and respirator, because it's clean. You can go back with the same old canvas dropcloths and paint as usual. As long as the lead paint is not disturbed any further (i.e. sanded or scraped).


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## nEighter

I missed mine due to a paperwork snafu.. but spoke to the instructor and getting rescheduled..


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## MaizeandBluePainter

*rrp rule*

I'm still trying to figure out how the EPA expects people to paint an exterior without power washing, because that's clearly what they want.


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## johnthepainter

so much misinformation out there

this will drive you nuts if you let it.


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## CamillusPaints

The DEC stop by the job yesturday. He pulled over in front of the house and sat there for about 3 minutes. Looked like he wrote down some info, probably from a sign I had up. 
Stupid question, is the DEC the lead police?


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## daArch

CamillusPaints said:


> The DEC stop by the job yesturday. He pulled over in front of the house and sat there for about 3 minutes. Looked like he wrote down some info, probably from a sign I had up.
> Stupid question, is the DEC the lead police?


We don't got no DEC in Mastachewtitts. But you do.

go here to find out what they do

http://www.dec.ny.gov/


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## Greg Mrakich

Funny thing is that if the home owner was to do the sanding and power washing him or her self, they don't have to follow the rules. government


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## Felan Painting

vermontpainter said:


> All you guys that are spending time calling the epa, reading about rrp, talking about rrp, and writing and responding to threads about rrp, I hope you are charging for it.


Yes the class shows you on hands how to contain. We have done some renovation projects in the past 3 weeks. With all the new lead laws in affect it has added $400 per day for a crew to work on a home . This covers n sheeting, signs, yellow caution tape , duct tape, etc...


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## Roamer

$400 per day? Are you painting the governor's mansion?

Average 3 bedroom two story house would probably require no more than two rolls 20'x100' of plastic. The prep stage for three men would probably be no more than 4-5 days, so each painter needs a tyvek suit and hepa cartridges for 5 days. Roughly that's two suits per man for the duration of the prep stage and two cartridges per man. One half roll of caution tape, two reusable plastic signs "Caution No Entry blah blah", and maybe 4 4ml trash bags for all of the waste and used plastic.

$60.00 plastic sheeting
$60.00 tyvek suits
$75.00 Hepa cartridges
$100.00 miscellaneous signs, tape etc.

$295.00 total fixed costs for job for lead precautions.

Cost of labor to install? What are your costs.

for us it would be in the neighborhood of $180/per day.

Now if you are trying to recoup the training/certification costs and the costs of your HEPA vacuum then you would divide the amount of those items by the number of lead jobs you do in a year and that would be the amount added to this job.

$10.00 per job to cover the cost of the $1000.00 vacuum presuming you do a minimum of 100 jobs per year.

$1.50 per job to cover the cost of the $150.00 lead certification for the crew leader.

$3.00 per job to cover the cost of $300.00 company certification.

Cost of per day to be compliant: $241.90.

What's more, on a non-lead job you would still have to spend the labor dropping out the house with conventional drop cloths and clean up the debris so the above figure is really not even that much more.


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## straight_lines

That is only $105 more per day that your detailed break brown of costs. Depending on where you are in the country that is a very acceptable margin.


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## StefanC

Roamer said:


> $400 per day? Are you painting the governor's mansion?
> 
> Average 3 bedroom two story house would probably require no more than two rolls 20'x100' of plastic. The prep stage for three men would probably be no more than 4-5 days, so each painter needs a tyvek suit and hepa cartridges for 5 days. Roughly that's two suits per man for the duration of the prep stage and two cartridges per man. One half roll of caution tape, two reusable plastic signs "Caution No Entry blah blah", and maybe 4 4ml trash bags for all of the waste and used plastic.
> 
> $60.00 plastic sheeting
> $60.00 tyvek suits
> $75.00 Hepa cartridges
> $100.00 miscellaneous signs, tape etc.
> 
> $295.00 total fixed costs for job for lead precautions.
> 
> Cost of labor to install? What are your costs.
> 
> for us it would be in the neighborhood of $180/per day.
> 
> Now if you are trying to recoup the training/certification costs and the costs of your HEPA vacuum then you would divide the amount of those items by the number of lead jobs you do in a year and that would be the amount added to this job.
> 
> $10.00 per job to cover the cost of the $1000.00 vacuum presuming you do a minimum of 100 jobs per year.
> 
> $1.50 per job to cover the cost of the $150.00 lead certification for the crew leader.
> 
> $3.00 per job to cover the cost of $300.00 company certification.
> 
> Cost of per day to be compliant: $241.90.
> 
> What's more, on a non-lead job you would still have to spend the labor dropping out the house with conventional drop cloths and clean up the debris so the above figure is really not even that much more.


Each time a worker leaves the work area I believe he needs to throw away his suit and get a new one. My guys also wouldn't work too terribly fast with plastic footed tyvek walking up and down ladders and on plastic all day.


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## RCP

Personal Protective gear is not required by EPA/RRP. It is by OHSA under certain conditions, one being exposed to lead over 8 hours. 
You take the suit off on the containment area and leave it there for the next day.
Link


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> Personal Protective gear is not required by EPA/RRP. It is by OHSA under certain conditions, one being exposed to lead over 8 hours.
> You take the suit off on the containment area and leave it there for the next day.
> Link


Wow...I had no idea....That is 1 of the biggest PIA's my guys have complained about.


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## StefanC

RCP said:


> Personal Protective gear is not required by EPA/RRP. It is by OHSA under certain conditions, one being exposed to lead over 8 hours.
> You take the suit off on the containment area and leave it there for the next day.
> Link


Wow, that's crazy. I better check on other things that my instructor told me.


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## RCP

StefanC said:


> Wow, that's crazy. I better check on other things that my instructor told me.


Stefan, the instructors all use the same slide show and script provided by the EPA. Some of the things are "recommended" as opposed to "required".
This has been a major source of confusion and frustration for many.
Then throw in a little OHSA and LSHR and your head is spinning!

I check everything here, it is the "official, legal" version that is updated.


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## Roamer

Our instructor showed us the proper way to remove a tyvek suit just so that it could safely be used again on the following day.


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## LA Painter

RCP said:


> Personal Protective gear is not required by EPA/RRP. It is by OHSA under certain conditions, one being exposed to lead over 8 hours.
> You take the suit off on the containment area and leave it there for the next day.


They spent about two hours on this in my class “implying” that it was an RRP requirement. The instructor told me privately after the class that personal protection is a OSHA issue. 

My class was sponsored by SW, and I’m sure SW would like everyone to "believe" they need to put on a fresh bunny suit & respirator every time they leave the containment area to go pee. 

Just sayin... :blink:


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## Matthew Litkie Paint

We have to double our bids then worry about a jagoff painter turning us in so he can get part of the fine


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## chrisn

Matthew Litkie Paint said:


> We have to double our bids then worry about a jagoff painter turning us in so he can get part of the fine:blink:


 Come again?


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