# Ipe deck stain question



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I am putting in an estimate for an ipe deck. High end home right on the water. Lots of sun. HO wants no sheen clear coat. Right now plan to use Arborcoat translucent oil. But, local Ace also carries Sikkens and Vermont Natuatal Coatings. Do either of these companies make something that would work and is better than arborcoat? I have not used either company. Also have Cali Storm available like storm, but having issues with the store that sells it locally. Thanks.

PS nothing on it. About three years old.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I use Cabot Australian Timber Oil on all my Ipe decks. You need to do more research. Ipe decks are a different animal.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I use Cabot Australian Timber Oil on all my Ipe decks. You need to do more research. Ipe decks are a different animal.



That looks awesome.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> UPutting in an estimate for an ipe deck. High end home right on the water. Lots of sun. HO wants no sheen clear coat. Right now plan to use Arborcoat translucent oil. But, local Ace also carries Sikkens and Vermont Natuatal Coatings. Do either of these companies make something that would work and is better than arborcoat? I have not used either company. Also have Cali Storm available like storm, but having issues with the store that sells it locally. Thanks. PS nothing on it. About three years old.


 strip it, brighten it, let it dry, run a floor buffer over it to remove any loose wood fibers. Apply one coat of any hardwood oil. I've been using Messmer's UV plus hardwood oil. You can wipe it down with acetone immediately prior to applying the finish to aid in penetration.








Edit: I just noticed where you said it's 3 years old with nothing on it. Instead of stripper strength sodium hydroxide, run a much more diluted mixture. Properly deluted BM Restore mix would be perfect, if your not sure. That will sterilize it and remove the dead wood layer. Then brighten and proceed as usual.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I use Cabot Australian Timber Oil on all my Ipe decks. You need to do more research. Ipe decks are a different animal.


That looks awesome. I decided to go with Arborcoat at first because it is what my store recommended, not a suprise since it is almost exclusively a BM store.I have used timber oil only once and a distinvtly remember that is had somewhat of a amber color to it? Does this change the look of the wood? Are there other oils I can use? Also I am kind of new to power washing and do not want to f&#$ up the deck. So would prefer to sand instead of using Restore. 
This is what the wood looks like now.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Will Teak oil work?


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I use Cabot Australian Timber Oil on all my Ipe decks. You need to do more research. Ipe decks are a different animal.


Wow. Looks awesome. Was wandering about the Australian timber oil. Quite a few of the reviews I read weren't that positive. But you know. You never know if its a pro, a h.o, or a hack doing the review.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Pete the Painter said:


> That looks awesome. I decided to go with Arborcoat at first because it is what my store recommended, not a suprise since it is almost exclusively a BM store.I have used timber oil only once and a distinvtly remember that is had somewhat of a amber color to it? Does this change the look of the wood? Are there other oils I can use? Also I am kind of new to power washing and do not want to f&#$ up the deck. So would prefer to sand instead of using Restore.
> This is what the wood looks like now.


Arborcoat is gonna fail on any deck. Specially on Ipe since you need to wipe off the product that doesn't penetrate.

This is one of the reasons I don't trust the people behind the counter because he gave you advice based on something he is never done before.


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

The no sheen part is the hardest. Even the flattest clears I've ever used still have some sheen and those are almost impossible to find in California anymore. I agree that the arborcoat is likely to fail on an Ipe deck - if it's the acrylic it's not going to penetrate at all. Definitely use real oil. It'll be expensive for sure but not as expensive as building an Ipe deck was in the first place.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Pete shoot me a PM if you have any questions. I'll be happy to help.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Arborcoat is gonna fail on any deck. Specially on Ipe since you need to wipe off the product that doesn't penetrate.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I don't trust the people behind the counter because he gave you advice based on something he is never done before.


Ipe needs to be coated with a very highly penetrating product, and most conventional stains won't penetrate well enough because of the tight grain of Ipe. There are specific stains for hardwoods such as Ipe. They typically have to be used almost like an interior wiping stain in that they need to be applied, allowed to soak in (dwell), and any excess wiped off. Sometimes this needs to be done twice to get an even color penetration.

Unfortunately at present i don't have anything for Ipe, so I really don't have a good product recommendation. I just don't want you to think all of us paint store guys are idiots!

Also. Ipe is a constant maintenance wood, as you can probably understand seeing the condition of the wood in your picture. People use it without understanding that it needs to be kept up a lot more diligently then most other woods. People seldom maintain any wood deck properly and Ipe needs much more care. It is a beautiful, stable wood though.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

^^^^ Dude I was not attacking you or any other member.

But the guy Pete talked to. It's obvious that he doesn't know how to maintain an Ipe deck.

I maintain my Ipe decks every 6 months. Any new customer needs to be educated first. Ipe can last up to 100 years untreated but it's gonna look like crap.

Pete can land a repetitive job for every 6 months but he needs to be upfront with the customer. Otherwise the HO is gonna think he did a poor job that only lasted 6 months. Next thing you know you gonna have a hack painter applying behr stain to an ipe deck. (I'd rather use motor oil than behr stains)


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I wouldn't recommend Arborcoat acrylic for Ipe, definitely. As has been mentioned, it's not a high penetrating stain to begin with and Ipe doesn't take stain easily in the first place. 

Penofin has a hardwood oil that I've heard is fantastic: http://www.penofin.com/wood-stains/hardwood-formula-wood-stain It's specifically formulated for woods like Ipe, and the Penofin I sell and have used are all great products.

It's clear and transparent like you're asking for, unlike some of the other recommendations you've been given. It's fully penetrating (zero film formed) and is easier to reapply than a lot of other products. It's a wiping stain, so you leave it on for roughly 30 minutes and then wipe the excess off with clothes. Make sure not to leave it on too long or it can get gummy and tacky. Make sure to dispose of the rags properly because they can spontaneously ignite (just store in water or leave in open air to dry).


But what do I know, I'm just a store clerk. We're all idiots.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> ^^^^ Dude I was not attacking you or any other member.
> 
> But the guy Pete talked to. It's obvious that he doesn't know how to maintain an Ipe deck.
> 
> ...


I know. Just joking.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I wouldn't recommend Arborcoat acrylic for Ipe, definitely. As has been mentioned, it's not a high penetrating stain to begin with and Ipe doesn't take stain easily in the first place.
> 
> Penofin has a hardwood oil that I've heard is fantastic: http://www.penofin.com/wood-stains/hardwood-formula-wood-stain It's specifically formulated for woods like Ipe, and the Penofin I sell and have used are all great products.
> 
> ...


Now, now. If all store people where as smart as us there wouldn't be a need for PT! And then where would we meet chicks?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> That looks awesome. I decided to go with Arborcoat at first because it is what my store recommended, not a suprise since it is almost exclusively a BM store.I have used timber oil only once and a distinvtly remember that is had somewhat of a amber color to it? Does this change the look of the wood? Are there other oils I can use? Also I am kind of new to power washing and do not want to f&#$ up the deck. So would prefer to sand instead of using Restore. This is what the wood looks like now.


 I'd still recommend cleaning it, even if you're planning on sanding the whole thing. I'd be afraid there could be some mold spores that sanding won't eliminate. You don't need to use a pressure washing, if that's what is making you nervous. Follow the directions on the Restore, and brighten containers from your BM store and you can't go wrong. All you need is a pump sprayer, a stiff bristle brush, and a garden hose. After it drys, rent a floor cleaner/buffer from the local HD and your good to go. Any hardwood oil should be fine, I personally have had good luck with Messmer's.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

After talking to one of my brands' tech services I have a little more information. Basically nothing works on ipe as a"finish" per se. It has to be oiled. Nothing in the Storm system will work. Hardwood oil as mentioned earlier is the only way to go. And it cannot have any resin in it. It has to be a straight oil product.

And, ipe really shouldn't be used outside of some tropical and sub-tropical areas of the US. Any lumber company that sells it for use in the north is doing a great disservice to the end user. But as we all know, if someone wants it, someone will sell it to them. But obviously a company that sells it in an area of the country where it shouldn't be used isn't going to become suddenly forthcoming with the consumer regarding the proper care and maintenance of it, are they?

It needs to be oiled every 4-8 months, depending on rain and UV exposure. And there is no good way to maintain the natural tone and look of it if it is subjected to snow coverage in the winter. It also can crack and become somewhat unstable if it is subjected to repeated freeze thaw cycles. And here is the big thing I learned! Most of what is being sold as "ipe" isn't really "ipe" but another type of wood that is not as rot resistant. (forgot what he called it.) Now who would believe that someone would do something like that!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> Most of what is being sold as "ipe" isn't really "ipe" but another type of wood that is not as rot resistant. (forgot what he called it.) Now who would believe that someone would do something like that!


That's actually almost universally true for the "exotic" hardwoods that are sold for decks. It's not necessarily a bad thing (for example, mahogany normally isn't mahogany if I recall correctly, as the "true" mahoganies are getting to be an endangered species), it's just something to be aware of.

Worth noting that some people are okay with the gray/'patina' look. Even the fake Ipe is far more rot resistant than even a cedar deck and can last quite a long time with proper care. It's really just all about knowing what you're getting.


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## Paint Chip (Dec 25, 2013)

Avoid the arborcoat translucent. I use messmers uv plus natural with good results. Tho ipe IMO is best to be left alone


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

DrakeB said:


> I wouldn't recommend Arborcoat acrylic for Ipe, definitely. As has been mentioned, it's not a high penetrating stain to begin with and Ipe doesn't take stain easily in the first place.
> 
> Penofin has a hardwood oil that I've heard is fantastic: http://www.penofin.com/wood-stains/hardwood-formula-wood-stain It's specifically formulated for woods like Ipe, and the Penofin I sell and have used are all great products.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I intended on using the oil arborcoat. Checked oit the Penofin webiste and there are a bunch of stores near me that sell its products.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> Thanks, I intended on using the oil arborcoat. Checked oit the Penofin webiste and there are a bunch of stores near me that sell its products.


Even the oil Arborcoat doesn't penetrate as well as Ipe needs; definitely go with a "hardwood oil." I've been consistently impressed with Penofin's products- if you decide to go with that, I'd love to see before/after pics.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

You should check out www.ipehelp.com and register. You can learn all you'll need to know about refinishing IPE here.

Another good resource is East Teak. They're a large supplier of IPE and have a lot of info about IPE maintenance on there website at www.eastteak.com

Beyond that I'd follow Excel's advice because it's spot on. If they want to keep up the appearance you'll likely need to apply a maintenance cost every year as well.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Here's another good link http://www.eastteak.com/all-resources/care/


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Another quick question. The HO told me something was put on a deck when it was built, which I think was 2-3 years ago, but she is not sure what it was. I poured a little water on the deck, at one of the more protected from the elements areas, and the wood absorbed the water. Do I need to strip the deck since I do not know what was put on, or does the absorbtion of the water indicate that it has pretty much worn off, and a good sanding will surfice.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PNW Painter said:


> You should check out www.ipehelp.com and register. You can learn all you'll need to know about refinishing IPE here.
> 
> Another good resource is East Teak. They're a large supplier of IPE and have a lot of info about IPE maintenance on there website at www.eastteak.com
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links, the first one comfirmed that the BM stain is not the way to go.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I'd imagine that most of the product from when the deck was installed has probably worn off unless the deck doesn't get much sun exposure.

Take the extra time to strip and brighten the deck. Messmer's and Woodrich both have kits that I've heard good things about. 

Take the time you need to do the job right and it'll likely lead to future work/referrals form this client.











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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> strip it, brighten it, let it dry, run a floor buffer over it to remove any loose wood fibers. Apply one coat of any hardwood oil. I've been using Messmer's UV plus hardwood oil. You can wipe it down with acetone immediately prior to applying the finish to aid in penetration.
> View attachment 58985
> 
> 
> Edit: I just noticed where you said it's 3 years old with nothing on it. Instead of stripper strength sodium hydroxide, run a much more diluted mixture. Properly deluted BM Restore mix would be perfect, if your not sure. That will sterilize it and remove the dead wood layer. Then brighten and proceed as usual.


Excel has it right. I've never used Messmers, but any good hardwood oil WITH regular maintenance. I have used both lacquer and acetone thinner as a prep before oiling. IME, it is an important step. Ipe is an naturally oily wood which is one of the things that make it hard to stain. A solvent wipe helps draw some of those oils off the surface.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> Another quick question. The HO told me something was put on a deck when it was built, which I think was 2-3 years ago, but she is not sure what it was. I poured a little water on the deck, at one of the more protected from the elements areas, and the wood absorbed the water. Do I need to strip the deck since I do not know what was put on, or does the absorbtion of the water indicate that it has pretty much worn off, and a good sanding will surfice.


If it were me, I'd do a really solid job prepping it since you don't know what the deck's been through in the past. Tell the HO that it's a one-time thing, and that as long as they keep it maintained (preferably by calling you) it will be much quicker, cheaper, easier in the future.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

If your customer wants it back to the original color of ipe, all of the cleaners in the world won't be much help. You are going to have to sand all of that old dead gray wood off.
And be forewarned, it will probably be a bi+ch to sand.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PACman said:


> If your customer wants it back to the original color of ipe, all of the cleaners in the world won't be much help. You are going to have to sand all of that old dead gray wood off. And be forewarned, it will probably be a bi+ch to sand.


 actually, properly diluted sodium hydroxide will completely remove all the old, dead, grey wood fibers, and as a bonus, sterilize the wood of any mold that might have worked its way into the grain. Then only a quick machine buffing is necessary to remove the loose fur. It's a piece of cake to do, no sanding is required, and it will be baby-butt smooth. The oil finish will penetrate, there will be no film build sheen, the deck will look better than ever, and Pete will be a hero!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> actually, properly diluted sodium hydroxide will completely remove all the old, dead, grey wood fibers, and as a bonus, sterilize the wood of any mold that might have worked its way into the grain. Then only a quick machine buffing is necessary to remove the loose fur. It's a piece of cake to do, no sanding is required, and it will be baby-butt smooth. The oil finish will penetrate, there will be no film build sheen, the deck will look better than ever, and Pete will be a hero!


Also sold as a deck "brightener". I am a big fan. If it will work that well on ipe in this condition I am a bigger fan. Worth a try. Probably work fine. But if you go this route and buy a deck "brightener" product make sure you are not getting one of the cheapo brands that have a very low level of active ingredients. Behr sells one that doesn't have enough active ingredients to flavor my eggs at breakfast. Why they have a poison/burn warning on that watered down crap is beyond me. Also make sure it is sodium hydroxide and not another type of "bleach" product. Although i would be interested to know if a hydrogen peroxide type would work on ipe. That's what Cali is pushing now.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PACman said:


> Also sold as a deck "brightener". I am a big fan. If it will work that well on ipe in this condition I am a bigger fan. Worth a try. Probably work fine. But if you go this route and buy a deck "brightener" product make sure you are not getting one of the cheapo brands that have a very low level of active ingredients. Behr sells one that doesn't have enough active ingredients to flavor my eggs at breakfast. Why they have a poison/burn warning on that watered down crap is beyond me. Also make sure it is sodium hydroxide and not another type of "bleach" product. Although i would be interested to know if a hydrogen peroxide type would work on ipe. That's what Cali is pushing now.


 Sodium Hydroxide is a strong base that will dissolve dead wood, stain and finish. It will darken wood, rather than brighten it. Most wood brighteners that I'm familiar with are combinations of oxalic and citric acids.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Sodium Hydroxide is a strong base that will dissolve dead wood, stain and finish. It will darken wood, rather than brighten it. Most wood brighteners that I'm familiar with are combinations of oxalic and citric acids.


You know you are absolutely correct. Chemistry is not my strongest science.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Sodium Hydroxide is a strong base that will dissolve dead wood, stain and finish. It will darken wood, rather than brighten it. Most wood brighteners that I'm familiar with are combinations of oxalic and citric acids.


I'd be curious how much it can actually "dissolve" dead wood. Obviously it can and does to a certain extent, but I'm not sure to such an extent that it makes a good sanding optional. But, decks really aren't my area of expertise, so I couldn't say for sure. I'm always overcautious, though, so maybe that's just that side of me speaking. If there's a question, my answer is usually "yes you should prime" and "yes you should sand." I'd still give the deck a thorough sanding after Sodium Hydroxide. Perhaps not necessary.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

My experience with ipe is that it's so strong and dense that sodium hydroxide will very effectively remove all the dead fibers, but leave the layer of fresh wood furred up. The fur can be sanded, but I've found a buffer is easier, quicker, and more effective.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Sodium Hydroxide is a strong base that will dissolve dead wood, stain and finish. It will darken wood, rather than brighten it. Most wood brighteners that I'm familiar with are combinations of oxalic and citric acids.


I think Sodium Hydroxide is used in deck strippers sometimes, as a cheaper alternative to Potassium Hydroxide which (imo) does a better job. That may be what Pacman was thinking of. They both have very similar properties.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> I think Sodium Hydroxide is used in deck strippers sometimes, as a cheaper alternative to Potassium Hydroxide which (imo) does a better job. That may be what Pacman was thinking of. They both have very similar properties.


 sodium hydroxide is the main ingredient in BM remove and restore products, as well as countless other stain strippers. It's also used as a commercial grade degreaser and sterilizer in the food processing industry.

Edit: curious why you think potassium hydroxide is better? What deck stripper uses it as its primary active ingredient?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> sodium hydroxide is the main ingredient in BM remove and restore products, as well as countless other stain strippers. It's also used as a commercial grade degreaser and sterilizer in the food processing industry.


Yup. It's very similar to potassium hydroxide, but costs about 30% as much. There's a bit about the differences here: http://info.soapwarehouse.biz/blog-...-vs-Potassium-Hydroxide-what-s-the-difference

Potash is marginally better, but much more expensive, which is why you don't see it as much. I actually stock the Penofin deck stripper/cleaner/brightener line rather than the BM one. The Penofin uses Potassium Hydroxide.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bleach; Very effective at removing mold but whitens deck.

Sodium hydroxide: Very effective at removing existing finish but no at killing mold. It also darkens the wood.

Both combined: Nirvana, especially if you are not refinishing. Your result will be closest to new ipe. If you are refinishing the wood and have to strip, best to use an acid brightener as your final cleaning/prep step.

If you are getting a sheen from a penetrating sealer.. you are overapplying.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Bleach; Very effective at removing mold but whitens deck.
> 
> Sodium hydroxide: Very effective at removing existing finish but no at killing mold. It also darkens the wood.
> 
> ...


Simultaneously? I see a lot of people mixing products that I'm not always comfortable with. I think sometimes this decreases the effect of both. For a deck with product on I often recommend the old 3-step prep (even though it's time consuming)- strip, clean, brighten.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Simultaneously? I see a lot of people mixing products that I'm not always comfortable with.


No doubt. When I was a kid, first job I had at a huge cafeteria a guy I worked with mixed bleach with some other cleaner to mop a floor that resulted in mustard gas or something like that. Whole building had to be evacuated.

Oh, and it wasn't me.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Simultaneously? I see a lot of people mixing products that I'm not always comfortable with. I think sometimes this decreases the effect of both. For a deck with product on I often recommend the old 3-step prep (even though it's time consuming)- strip, clean, brighten.


There is certainly nothing wrong with being thorough but as professionals we are always fighting the clock for efficiency. Sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite are 100% compatible and in fact, synergistic. Much of the bleach you buy at stores has sodium hydroxide in it to lengthen its shelf life. 

Sometimes you need all stripper or all bleach on a deck. In the case of ipe since mold does not penetrate deep, mixing the two chems is efficient and desirable.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bleach and acid? Different story. That will knock you on your azz.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> There is certainly nothing wrong with being thorough but as professionals we are always fighting the clock for efficiency. Sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite are 100% compatible and in fact, synergistic. Much of the bleach you buy at stores has sodium hydroxide in it to lengthen its shelf life.
> 
> Sometimes you need all stripper or all bleach on a deck. In the case of ipe since mold does not penetrate deep, mixing the two chems is efficient and desirable.


I figured with both being basic they likely would be. Didn't realize that about household bleach- good to know.

Have you ever used a product with potassium hydroxide? I appear to be somewhat of an outlier in using that product judging by the responses so far.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> No doubt. When I was a kid, first job I had at a huge cafeteria a guy I worked with mixed bleach with some other cleaner to mop a floor that resulted in mustard gas or something like that. Whole building had to be evacuated.
> 
> Oh, and it wasn't me.


Ammonia.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> Bleach and acid? Different story. That will knock you on your azz.


What? No Oxalic acid and sodium hydroxide concoctions then? Where's the fun?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> No doubt. When I was a kid, first job I had at a huge cafeteria a guy I worked with mixed bleach with some other cleaner to mop a floor that resulted in mustard gas or something like that. Whole building had to be evacuated.
> 
> Oh, and it wasn't me.





PACman said:


> Ammonia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine is what you get, mostly.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> What? No Oxalic acid and sodium hydroxide concoctions then? Where's the fun?


Those two would probably just cancel. But an oxidizer like bleach mixed with an acid.. OUCH. I'm fairly certain the resultant gas is lethal. I know it will choke you from 20 yards.

Disclaimer: I make my living using chemicals and am versed in chemical combinations. Even chemicals I know that are compatible, I would never mix up in close quarters, like the inside of a van or box truck. Guys new to chemical use would be best served by buying pre mixed cleaning solutions that come with an MSDS. (ie don't try this at home.. we are professionals )


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> I figured with both being basic they likely would be. Didn't realize that about household bleach- good to know.
> 
> Have you ever used a product with potassium hydroxide? I appear to be somewhat of an outlier in using that product judging by the responses so far.


Potassium hydroxide is a great chemical. I use it on gutter exteriors to remove streaks. It is also good for cutting grease and soot damage from fire.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> Yup. It's very similar to potassium hydroxide, but costs about 30% as much. There's a bit about the differences here: http://info.soapwarehouse.biz/blog-0/bid/83765/Sodium-Hydroxide-vs-Potassium-Hydroxide-what-s-the-difference Potash is marginally better, but much more expensive, which is why you don't see it as much. I actually stock the Penofin deck stripper/cleaner/brightener line rather than the BM one. The Penofin uses Potassium Hydroxide.


 that's good to know. I wonder if it would strip cetol 123. That stuff can be a challenge.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Bleach; Very effective at removing mold but whitens deck. Sodium hydroxide: Very effective at removing existing finish but no at killing mold. It also darkens the wood. Both combined: Nirvana, especially if you are not refinishing. Your result will be closest to new ipe. If you are refinishing the wood and have to strip, best to use an acid brightener as your final cleaning/prep step. If you are getting a sheen from a penetrating sealer.. you are overapplying.


 I was hoping you would chime in here. I've never used sodium hydroxide on a surface that I wasn't stripping. When used at stripper strength, I'm pretty sure it kills mold, and anything else it touches. I did some work in an industrial food processing plant. They had a room with a giant 1000's gallon sodium hydroxide tank with pipes running to various stations in the factory, a couple of the pipe joints had very slow drip leaks. The concrete on the walls and floor subjected to the drips were cratered several inches deep. One of the old timers there pulled me aside and warned me not to get to close. He said many years ago one of the factory workers got some sodium hydroxide in his shoe. It stung at first but he carried on with work. When his shift ended, he took his work shoes off and discovered his foot was dissolved down to the bone. Apparently the chemical did nerve damage so he couldn't feel it. True or not, it got my attention.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> Those two would probably just cancel. But an oxidizer like bleach mixed with an acid.. OUCH. I'm fairly certain the resultant gas is lethal. I know it will choke you from 20 yards.
> 
> Disclaimer: I make my living using chemicals and am versed in chemical combinations. Even chemicals I know that are compatible, I would never mix up in close quarters, like the inside of a van or box truck. Guys new to chemical use would be best served by buying pre mixed cleaning solutions that come with an MSDS. (ie don't try this at home.. we are professionals )


Like professor Beaker?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> Those two would probably just cancel. But an oxidizer like bleach mixed with an acid.. OUCH. I'm fairly certain the resultant gas is lethal. I know it will choke you from 20 yards.
> 
> Disclaimer: I make my living using chemicals and am versed in chemical combinations. Even chemicals I know that are compatible, I would never mix up in close quarters, like the inside of a van or box truck. Guys new to chemical use would be best served by buying pre mixed cleaning solutions that come with an MSDS. (ie don't try this at home.. we are professionals )


Well yeah with the "over the counter" concentrations. I definitely wouldn't recommend any inexperienced person to start mixing up a deck prep product from scratch!

I'm curious about something I have seen in the 2015 California paint storm stain data sheets though, and maybe you will be able to give me a good answer. All they can say is they have tested it and it is the best recommendation. They are saying to clean new pressure treated wood with a TSP concentration before staining. I was under the impression that this was considered to not be the best product to use. But they actually updated their data sheets to include this recommendation this year. Do you suppose they know something most other paint brands don't? Maybe the treatments have changed recently?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PACman said:


> Well yeah with the "over the counter" concentrations. I definitely wouldn't recommend any inexperienced person to start mixing up a deck prep product from scratch!
> 
> I'm curious about something I have seen in the 2015 California paint storm stain data sheets though, and maybe you will be able to give me a good answer. All they can say is they have tested it and it is the best recommendation. They are saying to clean new pressure treated wood with a TSP concentration before staining. I was under the impression that this was considered to not be the best product to use. But they actually updated their data sheets to include this recommendation this year. Do you suppose they know something most other paint brands don't? Maybe the treatments have changed recently?


TSP is a great cleaner. It is a phosphate and has its own inherent issues so I would still sya its not the best choice. It won't strip stain and it will not kill mold. Perhaps it is best for cleaning new PTP.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Ok, so the plan is to use Penofin. Spoke to them. No need to strip, because Ipe is soaking up water. Told to clean, sand and brighten. Told that power washing not reccomended becasuse any "mistakes" will be very noticable. Since I am new to power washing I will follow this advice. My big quuestion is that this deck is a little over 75p sq ft. I am thinking 2 days to sand with Festool RO 90. Is this reasonable? Also told to use nothing above 80 grit sandpaper because higher will close grain. Will 80 be fine or should I use 60.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Start with 100 grit on some boards and see how you like it. Wipe the boards with acetone before applying the Penofin.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Ok, so the plan is to use Penofin. Spoke to them. No need to strip, because Ipe is soaking up water. Told to clean, sand and brighten. Told that power washing not reccomended becasuse any "mistakes" will be very noticable. Since I am new to power washing I will follow this advice. My big quuestion is that this deck is a little over 75p sq ft. I am thinking 2 days to sand with Festool RO 90. Is this reasonable? Also told to use nothing above 80 grit sandpaper because higher will close grain. Will 80 be fine or should I use 60.


Say WHAT! What is that called again?:vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> Say WHAT! What is that called again?:vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked::vs_shocked:



Ask @Gough I bet he knows.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Ask @Gough I bet he knows.


Kumquat...it's called kumquat.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Kumquat...it's called kumquat.


I'm going to take my mid morning between rushes nap now so don't PM me ok?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> I'm going to take my mid morning between rushes nap now so don't PM me ok?


Is that your nap...or do you have to "drop off the twins at the pool"?

EDIT: in a much-earlier thread about "m... g....", I suggested kumquat as an alternate name for the condition.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Ok, so the plan is to use Penofin. Spoke to them. No need to strip, because Ipe is soaking up water. Told to clean, sand and brighten. Told that power washing not reccomended becasuse any "mistakes" will be very noticable. Since I am new to power washing I will follow this advice. My big quuestion is that this deck is a little over 75p sq ft. I am thinking 2 days to sand with Festool RO 90. Is this reasonable? Also told to use nothing above 80 grit sandpaper because higher will close grain. Will 80 be fine or should I use 60.


You could use the ro90 but its really too small, slow and underpowered for that kind of work. You could buy a ro125 and do it in half a day. If already bid 2 days then it will pay for itself. And your knees will thank you.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> Is that your nap...or do you have to "drop off the twins at the pool"? EDIT: in a much-earlier thread about "m... g....", I suggested kumquat as an alternate name for the condition.


 I don't think M... G.... Is as relevant to ipe as it is to cedar. Ipe is going to give crap penetration regardless, where cedar definitely benefits from an 80-grit sanding.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Just finished the deck. Had a couple of weather related delays. Used Penofin Hardwood oil. Very happy with the results. But, will definately charge more next time I do one. Had to purchase a Festool RO 125. I tried to use a deck sander, but all of the wood was warped and the sander would only get the edges. Still took me a little over 2 days to sand with the Festool. Very hard ln the back and leg muscles.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> Just finished the deck. Had a couple of weather related delays. Used Penofin Hardwood oil. Very happy with the results. But, will definately charge more next time I do one. Had to purchase a Festool RO 125. I tried to use a deck sander, but all of the wood was warped and the sander would only get the edges. Still took me a little over 2 days to sand with the Festool. Very hard ln the back and leg muscles.


Looks great Pete but you'll be back in a year or to nothing holds up on ipe nothing. Nice work:thumbsup:


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Looks great Pete but you'll be back in a year or to nothing holds up on ipe nothing. Nice work:thumbsup:


Already have plans to return early spring. Told the HO is she does not keep it up, I will have to do the whole process again.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> Already have plans to return early spring. Told the HO is she does not keep it up, I will have to do the whole process again.


Looks great! Overall did you like the Penofin? I've loved it for normal decks, but haven't had the chance to use or sell the Hardwood Oil yet. Seems like they make top notch products. Any complaints with it?

Edit: And I hope my advice was useful overall.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Is this the deck you asked me about Pete?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Is this the deck you asked me about Pete?


Yes, it is.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

DrakeB said:


> Looks great! Overall did you like the Penofin? I've loved it for normal decks, but haven't had the chance to use or sell the Hardwood Oil yet. Seems like they make top notch products. Any complaints with it?
> 
> Edit: And I hope my advice was useful overall.


I like the Penofin a lot. Easy to apply. I found it to be a lot like Cabot's Timber Oil. Its help line is also awesome. I called Penofin many times and they were very knowledgeable. The only issue I had is that despite going over the deck many times to ensure that it was nice and smooth (free of scratches from the sander), when I view the deck from certain angles I could see areas where the sander left scratches. Luckily this was only evident when I was applying the oil, down on my knees and leaning over, and really was not evident when I was standing up.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

Best product for IPE is Sikkens Cetol 1. Yes I know it's not specified for it but trust me I maintain over 100 properties that have IPE decks, docks and walkways. You apply the Cetol 1 with brush and brush it out. Do not put a second coat on it as it will not penetrate and will a get film build. I get an average life of about two years on all of them. Mesmers the recommended product is trash and if you get six months your lucky. Cabot is not much better. This is also in SW Florida where the UV exposure is at its greatest.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

NaplesPainter said:


> Best product for IPE is Sikkens Cetol 1. Yes I know it's not specified for it but trust me I maintain over 100 properties that have IPE decks, docks and walkways. You apply the Cetol 1 with brush and brush it out. Do not put a second coat on it as it will not penetrate and will a get film build. I get an average life of about two years on all of them. Mesmers the recommended product is trash and if you get six months your lucky. Cabot is not much better. This is also in SW Florida where the UV exposure is at its greatest.


What kind of prep do you have to do after two years in order to recoat?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Not to be difficult but isn't that technically a porch and not a deck? It looks like it's covered.

Looks beautiful regardless! That has to make a huge impression to anyone who walks up to that house. I bet the HO loves it!


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

NaplesPainter said:


> Best product for IPE is Sikkens Cetol 1. Yes I know it's not specified for it but trust me I maintain over 100 properties that have IPE decks, docks and walkways. You apply the Cetol 1 with brush and brush it out. Do not put a second coat on it as it will not penetrate and will a get film build. I get an average life of about two years on all of them. Mesmers the recommended product is trash and if you get six months your lucky. Cabot is not much better. This is also in SW Florida where the UV exposure is at its greatest.


 let's see some pics!


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Not to be difficult but isn't that technically a porch and not a deck? It looks like it's covered.
> 
> Looks beautiful regardless! That has to make a huge impression to anyone who walks up to that house. I bet the HO loves it!


Yes, I believe you are correct. But, it is a darn big porch...about 750 sq. ft.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

CApainter said:


> What kind of prep do you have to do after two years in order to recoat?


You will need to pressure wash to eliminate the mold and dirt pickup. Depending on the depreciation of the coating you sometimes have to sand some boards back raw so the stain goes on evenly and doesn't look blotchy. If the color has depreciated evenly you can just apply another coat on top as the boards will be porous enough to accept it.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> let's see some pics!



I apologize I prefer not to post any pictures as I have been contacted before by my clients legal representation for posting/using pictures without their acknowledgement and approval. This has happened to me on two different occasions. I would need to get there permission first and it's not worth asking my clients for this request.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

That porch deck looks really nice.

Perhaps we should now refer to you as Pete "the Stainer."


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

NaplesPainter said:


> I apologize I prefer not to post any pictures as I have been contacted before by my clients legal representation for posting/using pictures without their acknowledgement and approval. This has happened to me on two different occasions. I would need to get there permission first and it's not worth asking my clients for this request.


Wow, so you were threatened with law suits, twice, for posting pictures of your work? What are they afraid of? It's just anonymous wood. 

Here's what messmers (what you call junk) looks like with annual maintenance, after 4 years. 









This one has full southern, waterfront facing, exposure.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Wow, so you were threatened with law suits, twice, for posting pictures of your work? What are they afraid of? It's just anonymous wood.
> 
> Here's what messmers (what you call junk) looks like with annual maintenance, after 4 years.
> 
> ...


It wasn't just a picture of a deck, it was a picture of their residence, but I have learned not to post anything without permission. Great looking deck. Looks to be done exceptionally well and yes it looks great when you complete it with messmers, but as you stated with annual maintenance. We are getting an average of two years with the coating we are applying. In my opinion messmers is an inferior product.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

NaplesPainter said:


> It wasn't just a picture of a deck, it was a picture of their residence, but I have learned not to post anything without permission. Great looking deck. Looks to be done exceptionally well and yes it looks great when you complete it with messmers, but as you stated with annual maintenance. We are getting an average of two years with the coating we are applying. In my opinion messmers is an inferior product.


I could be wrong, but I don't think he means "annual recoat" he means "annual maintenance." Decks should get annual maintenance no matter what is on them. And a 4 year cycle with that kind of product is excellent.

Gotta keep in mind, also, that different products hold up better or worse in different parts of the country and on different types of wood.


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