# Another Advance thread.



## Jmayspaint

We got a gazillion threads here about spraying Advance, and here's another one

I'm continually impressed with this materials spray qualities. It's resistance to orange peel and leveling is unparalleled in my experience with spraying waterbornes. 

This millwork had a rolled finish originally. Not a real bad one, but not great either. We sanded and primed it all with Bin, then sprayed two coats of Advance semi on all the trim and built ins. 








































This job was done in conjunction with the Arte Bella group in Johnson City TN. There a great bunch of guys and gals and they did most of the prep and masking for this project as well as finishing the walls and ceilings in this area. Maria has mad skills with color coordination and faux finishing, check them out on Facebook. 


I'm curious if anyone has sprayed much of the Pro Classic hybrid or any similar products and how they compare with Advance.


----------



## straight_lines

Pro Classic acrylic alkyd isn't my favorite product. I have some fpoe ECO on order now, and will be able to see how it applies and holds up. Advance is great, it makes painting really easy but it is not a very durable finish. 

John Shearer painting uses a bunch of these types of coatings, and has more experience with them than anyone I know. I think they use a lot of eco and C2.


----------



## Epoxy Pro

straight_lines said:


> Pro Classic acrylic alkyd isn't my favorite product. I have some fpoe ECO on order now, and will be able to see how it applies and holds up. Advance is great, it makes painting really easy but it is not a very durable finish.
> 
> John Shearer painting uses a bunch of these types of coatings, and has more experience with them than anyone I know. I think they use a lot of eco and C2.


The quality of his work is very impressive. I like looking up his videos. I know he likes C2 and FPoE.


----------



## Epoxy Pro

Looks awesome. We have yet to try Advanced.


----------



## paintball head

I haven't sprayed Advance but have used it for some commercial jobs, door frames and doors and it really levels out nice. The slow cure times causing problems on shelving or a window seat, and also the recommended recoat times are an issue for me. I spray Muralo Ultra for all of my interior trim work.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo

straight_lines said:


> Pro Classic acrylic alkyd isn't my favorite product. I have some fpoe ECO on order now, and will be able to see how it applies and holds up. Advance is great, it makes painting really easy but it is not a very durable finish. John Shearer painting uses a bunch of these types of coatings, and has more experience with them than anyone I know. I think they use a lot of eco and C2.


The only downside I've experienced with Advance is a long cure time with dark colors. I've never experienced anything that would suggest it's not durable. What makes you think it's not durable?


----------



## Lambrecht

Looks good. I like to use Aqua Lock under Advance because it gives you build and sands super smooth making the Advance topcoat look like glass.


----------



## jw129943

I've found that once Advance cures, it's very durable. The cure time stinks though, for sure. The only issues I've seen in terms of durability, relate to prep, or issues occurring before the paint is fully cured.


----------



## straight_lines

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> The only downside I've experienced with Advance is a long cure time with dark colors. I've never experienced anything that would suggest it's not durable. What makes you think it's not durable?


Because you can mar a cured finish with your fingernail. Lay you finger down print facing you on the surface, drag and it leaves a dull streak. Won't wash off the sheen has been damaged.


----------



## jacob33

I have never tried advanced. That looks good though looks like oil.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Great work!


----------



## ridesarize

Great looking project, quite the design, very eye catching.

We used pro classic wb last winter and had major issues with fish eye. I believe it was not the hybrid but that made me not want to go with pro classic again.

We use advance often, and we're using it on our current project, brushing all the base and some other trim in this home.

Now a wb product I was super impressed with last winter is KM Durapoxy. It lives up to it's name and is very durable in my opinion.


----------



## Damon T

Beautiful work Jmayspaint!!
So much of our stuff is brush or brush and roll with fine finish roller that the Advance works great. Also is great for spray. Both airless and HVLP. If we did primarily spray I would probably dig into the wb lacquer more. Or even use more breakthrough. But since we brush a lot Advance is great. Looking forward to hearing from Tommy how he likes the Eco


----------



## straight_lines

Used a different kind of advance today. :shifty:


----------



## Jmayspaint

straight_lines said:


> Used a different kind of advance today. :shifty:



What's the scoop on that stuff? Did a search but couldn't find the tds. 
Waterborne alkyd?


----------



## straight_lines

No its acrylic, from a test lab. Really slow dry time.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo

straight_lines said:


> Used a different kind of advance today. :shifty:


 I like that SW called it Advanced. That's actually what I thought BM Advance was called until I was corrected by another painter a couple weeks ago. SW should run with it! Btw, I going to try a finger nail/mar test on some Advance soon. I've never experienced that type of marring with it yet. I'm not doubting that it's possible, just a little surprised.


----------



## straight_lines

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I like that SW called it Advanced. That's actually what I thought BM Advance was called until I was corrected by another painter a couple weeks ago. SW should run with it! Btw, I going to try a finger nail/mar test on some Advance soon. I've never experienced that type of marring with it yet. I'm not doubting that it's possible, just a little surprised.


Most WB enamels do it. My end table in a deep blue with ASE does it. Not saying Advance is less durable than other waterborne paints. Just not durable like oil, or lacquer. WB lacquers are the best I have seen at that. 

Tested out a product called commercial ceiling paint today as well. Very nice product. :thumbsup:


----------



## capn26

Okay, so I posed this on a different thread about a month ago, I've asked my SW rep, and my BM store, and no one has sounded sure at all about the answer they give me. There's always a ton of "that's what they say" in the response. These water bournes, use over oil? Over acrylic? Everyone around here swears that you can paint over either just fine....."that's what they say anyway." I'd love to try advance and the PC. PC is my go to enamel, I'm just a little hazy on this.


----------



## TJ Paint

Test it out. Only way to know for sure.


----------



## ridesarize

capn26 said:


> Okay, so I posed this on a different thread about a month ago, I've asked my SW rep, and my BM store, and no one has sounded sure at all about the answer they give me. There's always a ton of "that's what they say" in the response. These water bournes, use over oil? Over acrylic? Everyone around here swears that you can paint over either just fine....."that's what they say anyway." I'd love to try advance and the PC. PC is my go to enamel, I'm just a little hazy on this.


Yes it will work over oil. Of course sand it and dust it first.

Also it would be debatable as to whether or not it's a hack short cut. I say it's okay if the job scope will not allow for repriming and such beforehand. Especially repaints when you are just brushing it on, it seems much harder to brush any primer first, then brush 2 coats of Advance. 

A company I just worked for just used it over existing oil trim, and the only places that didn't cover easy (first coat) were in the bathrooms by the shower. After 2 coats it's all good.


----------



## capn26

Cool. Thanks. I guess my personal confusion always came from the fact that it's alkyd solids, just in a water base instead of oil. I'm not sure why I'd use it in PC since you already have oil or acrylic, But I've really been wanting to try the advance. And I think I'd still prime. It's so much cheaper than a failure, and when in doubt, oil prime.


----------



## TJ Paint

capn26 said:


> And I think I'd still prime. It's so much cheaper than a failure, and when in doubt, oil prime.


I agree and great point. But then, why are you asking?


----------



## Damon T

I've done several jobs now with Advance over oil. We typically sand thoroughly, wipe with Krud Kutter Gloss-Off and paint. Sticks great. 
If spraying we will usually use Smart Prime or Stix first, but as mentioned when brushing the primer doesn't flow as well so if I don't think we need to prime we don't.


----------



## Jmayspaint

I think kinda the point of Advance is to be a modern replacement for solvent borne alkyds. Seems like it came out right about the time Satin Impervo was phasing out (in my locale anyway). 

The first job I ever used it on was re coating Impervo. It was recommended to me by the store for that job. It worked great then, and many times since then. 

The official word from the lab rats at BM about using Advance over oil is that the surface should be "primed or de glossed". Not scuff sanded, but straight up de glossed. Going over many old oils like the Impervo, that's pretty easy to do. But I have had a few jobs (mostly gloss oil) where it's been easier to just sand and prime than totally de gloss.
Interestingly, BM recommends using acrylic fresh start as the ideal primer in these cases, not oil.


----------



## CApainter

Excellent job Jmays! I have yet to spray Advance, but I should have on a recent door. 

*Following Advance Details:*
1. Newly installed exterior steel door, factory primed. Practically a 42" width and standard height.

2. Expected two coats would need to be applied given the dark bronze finish color.

3. Standard prep. Degrease, light sand, tack cloth. 

*First coat summary (and I cut in around the lever by the way)*
For several reasons I had to brush rather than spray. Active pedestrian thorough way, Windows that would need to masked near by, and a constant flow of forced air from a blower within the proximity of the door. Logistics suggested brushing would be quicker.

Since I chose the gloss exterior Advance for it's performance on a previous door, I decided to do the same on this one. I also chose to brush rather than roll because I knew how the gloss would reflect the roller stipple. I should have tried rolling.

I did a vertical brush pattern, only able to work within twelve inch width at a time. I completely brushed without using a roller first. I found that the air from the blower was not allowing me enough open time before creating a lap mark, but I kept going. Sure enough, three vertical lap marks from top to bottom when the door dried. Of course, the rest of the door in between the laps laid down beautifully.

*Second coat summary:*
Probably because of the forced air, that I had no control of stopping, the Advance dried hard enough to sand. I used 400 grit, tacked it, but decided to roll a tight pattern this time. Although the roller pattern leveled very well, I could still see the lap marks from coat one. Probably because of the gloss. I also could see some weird blotchy roller marks at certain angles. Probably because of the forced air.

*Conclusion: *
I would have never had as much problems had I used the semi gloss. Conditions have to be just right, even on top of the certain conditions required to use Advance, when using a gloss. Also, had there not been the forced air issue, things would have turned out better.

*Bottom line:* 
I need to begin spraying Advance whenever possible.


----------



## Gough

CApainter said:


> Excellent job Jmays! I have yet to spray Advance, but I should have on a recent door.
> 
> *Following Advance Details:*
> 1. Newly installed exterior steel door, factory primed. Practically a 42" width and standard height.
> 
> 2. Expected two coats would need to be applied given the dark bronze finish color.
> 
> 3. Standard prep. Degrease, light sand, tack cloth.
> 
> *First coat summary (and I cut in around the lever by the way)*
> For several reasons I had to brush rather than spray. Active pedestrian thorough way, Windows that would need to masked near by, and a constant flow of forced air from a blower within the proximity of the door. Logistics suggested brushing would be quicker.
> 
> Since I chose the gloss exterior Advance for it's performance on a previous door, I decided to do the same on this one. I also chose to brush rather than roll because I knew how the gloss would reflect the roller stipple. I should have tried rolling.
> 
> I did a vertical brush pattern, only able to work within twelve inch width at a time. I completely brushed without using a roller first. I found that the air from the blower was not allowing me enough open time before creating a lap mark, but I kept going. Sure enough, three vertical lap marks from top to bottom when the door dried. Of course, the rest of the door in between the laps laid down beautifully.
> 
> *Second coat summary:*
> Probably because of the forced air, that I had no control of stopping, the Advance dried hard enough to sand. I used 400 grit, tacked it, but decided to roll a tight pattern this time. Although the roller pattern leveled very well, I could still see the lap marks from coat one. Probably because of the gloss. I also could see some weird blotchy roller marks at certain angles. Probably because of the forced air.
> 
> *Conclusion: *
> I would have never had as much problems had I used the semi gloss. Conditions have to be just right, even on top of the certain conditions required to use Advance, when using a gloss. Also, had there not been the forced air issue, things would have turned out better.
> 
> *Bottom line:*
> I need to begin spraying Advance whenever possible.


Thanks for the summary. I think if we end up using it for some of our older clients, we'll wait until they are out of town. They have a tendency to heat their houses to match their age. We're working on an 80-year old's house this week and It was so toasty that I wanted to wear shorts. 

On the door that you wrote about, I do have one important question: did you take off the door knob? :jester:


----------



## PRC

Jmays- from your OP, what made you go with BIN for primer?


----------



## CApainter

Gough said:


> Thanks for the summary. I think if we end up using it for some of our older clients, we'll wait until they are out of town. They have a tendency to heat their houses to match their age. We're working on an 80-year old's house this week and It was so toasty that I wanted to wear shorts.
> 
> On the door that you wrote about, I do have one important question: did you take off the door knob? :jester:


No. "To the Moon Alice! Too the Moon!"


----------



## thinkpainting/nick

Last winter I took down 3 old 6 panel solid wood doors had stowed away. Stripped them primed all with Advance primer . Finished one with Advance semi, one with PPG breakthrough , and the last one with C2 semi. Hands down the best finsh , smoothest, mirror like finsh was Adnave semi. It's a thing of beauty really. As I've said before I also box Advance satin and semi 1-1 tones diwn the shine a little but makes for more of a old Impervo oil finsh look.

My second choice would be the C2 and the Breakthrough I know guys here love it but the satin is like a flat. 

Just my 2 cts and ill post pics ASAP, :thumbsup:

Sorry typing on iPad bad grammar spelling.


----------



## Jmayspaint

PRC said:


> Jmays- from your OP, what made you go with BIN for primer?


 It was technically a smoke damage job. A pan had been badly scorched on the stove while no one was home. Seemed like overkill to Bin two entire floors of a 6k ft house because of a scorched pan, but the client was insistent and the insurance company paid for it so.. Easiest insurance adjuster I've even seen.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Last winter I took down 3 old 6 panel solid wood doors had stowed away. Stripped them primed all with Advance primer . Finished one with Advance semi, one with PPG breakthrough , and the last one with C2 semi. Hands down the best finsh , smoothest, mirror like finsh was Adnave semi. It's a thing of beauty really. As I've said before I also box Advance satin and semi 1-1 tones diwn the shine a little but makes for more of a old Impervo oil finsh look.
> 
> My second choice would be the C2 and the Breakthrough I know guys here love it but the satin is like a flat.
> 
> Just my 2 cts and ill post pics ASAP, :thumbsup:
> 
> Sorry typing on iPad bad grammar spelling.


Just wanted to update my post , still a huge fan of Advance but it has it's limitations . As we know it can take a long while to harden up and dry . If doing a cabinet job one must think it through whether it will be the best corse. I recently switched back to BM 314 on a couple of CaBinet jobs for the dry time. Also 314 sprays nice and great finish differn animal for sure but made me look and good and most important made me $$$$


----------



## Damon T

We've had two jobs this week with Advance semi. Had only used satin up till now. My guys had trouble with the flocked foam rollers making it look nice. With satin it can look sprayed. I will be pushing satin again. 
Was the C2 their cabinet & trim paint? I loved it sprayed but not so much brushed.


----------



## Jmayspaint

We had some isolated bonding problems with Advance semi over oil this past week. It appears that a few areas didn't get sufficiently de-glossed before application. The existing coating was very old and quite dull, but still had some problems in a few places that didn't get prepped well enough. 

The majority of the trim in the house did great, but the problem areas were enough to remind me that while this stuff will work well for this, it needs help in the form of very thorough de-glossing.


----------



## PRC

Jmayspaint said:


> We had some isolated bonding problems with Advance semi over oil this past week. It appears that a few areas didn't get sufficiently de-glossed before application. The existing coating was very old and quite dull, but still had some problems in a few places that didn't get prepped well enough.
> 
> The majority of the trim in the house did great, but the problem areas were enough to remind me that while this stuff will work well for this, it needs help in the form of very thorough de-glossing.


I had similar isolated issues with the gloss over thoroughly preped oil. I found that adhesion did improve with time.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick

Used Aura Satin today on a repaint exsitting trim had a semi gloss white . One coat of the Aura Satin we (5 painters) were all very impressed. Nice product very nice finish . We had used Advance on the upstairs of this house gave us a few issues. This Aura we will use agin for sure . We use allot of the Exterior Aura Satin but never thought of trying interior line. 

The finish dosent have that plastic look to it.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick

Damon T said:


> We've had two jobs this week with Advance semi. Had only used satin up till now. My guys had trouble with the flocked foam rollers making it look nice. With satin it can look sprayed. I will be pushing satin again.
> Was the C2 their cabinet & trim paint? I loved it sprayed but not so much brushed.


Agree on sprayed not brushed ..:yes:


----------



## DeanV

Ever have a hard time getting good coverage out of advance with the flocked covers? It puts on a thin coat.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa

DeanV said:


> Ever have a hard time getting good coverage out of advance with the flocked covers? It puts on a thin coat.


Hi DeanV!
I use a microfiber then i back brush it lightly you will never see a brush mark.


----------



## DeanV

I the hiding power is the only issue I have had with flock or microfiber covers. Linen white on new cabinets over primer. Vey smooth finish though.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa

DeanV said:


> I the hiding power is the only issue I have had with flock or microfiber covers. Linen white on new cabinets over primer. Vey smooth finish though.


I am with you there on the hiding power.
Lately that's all I use.


----------



## Damon T

Yeah Dean. Just finished a job OC-118 snowfall white. Needed 3 coats over primer. Two full walls of bookcases by hand lots of work.


----------



## Seth The Painter

If you can get away with it use decorators white guys it covers alot better.


----------

