# Time to switch deck stain brands?



## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

I've been a loyal Cabot customer for decades, but the Valspar and VOC regs look like they're beating down the company's products. They released a new semi-trans this summer, Preservative Wood Finish. I'm hoping it's better than the other semi-trans since it _should've_ been conceived with VOC in mind unlike the older ones.

Also looking at migrating to Sikkens since others have traditionally praised their performance. Did the low VOC rules have major implications with SRD?

Anyone use Defy products? It's waterbourne and the company has a decent reputation. I'm wondering if this might be the way to go in future because of..wait for it...VOC rules. 

I've looked at TWP too, but two-coat is always a hard sell to h/o's.

Thoughts?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vinuneuro said:


> Also looking at migrating to Sikkens since others have traditionally praised their performance. Did the low VOC rules have major implications with SRD?
> 
> *Great product, you will be happy with it. No problems with VOC's. Sikkens has actually been lowering their VOC contents anticipating the law changes.*
> 
> ...


Here's my .02


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

The only reason I used Cabot was for their solid oil and I quit using them completely last year. For solids I use a an acrylic in the SW Deckscapes/Woodscapes now. Even though I will be completing a solid oil using Sikkens this afternoon I hope this will be the last one.

For Semi-trans look seriously into the Armstrong Clark stains (www.arm-clark.com) and talk with Scott over at the www.ProSealerStore.com about the Defy. From what I can remember reading the new Defy waterborne may be worth looking into but I will stay with the oil.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Tonyg said:


> The only reason I used Cabot was for their solid oil and I quit using them completely last year. For solids I use a an acrylic in the SW Deckscapes/Woodscapes now. Even though I will be completing a solid oil using Sikkens this afternoon I hope this will be the last one.


And it probably will be the last. Rubbol DEK ( oil ) is being discontinued. They have a hybrid formulation that is soap ( dish soap ) and water clean up, Rubbol Solid DEK. The nice thing about the Sikkens solid's is that they are microporous. It allows the wood to breathe resisting peeling and flaking.


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Here's my .02


Does the maintenance coat system apply to SRD (ie. tsp, neutralize, maintenance coat) or is it one that needs to be stripped and sanded every time? I've heard TWP is good in this respect.

You said TWP wears evenly. Is this not the case with SRD?

I'm at the edge of two states. One's VOC bound, the other not. Is there a huge performance difference between 100 and 500 in TWP?

Thanks to both for the feedback.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Here ya go 



vinuneuro said:


> Does the maintenance coat system apply to SRD (ie. tsp, neutralize, maintenance coat) or is it one that needs to be stripped and sanded every time? I've heard TWP is good in this respect.
> 
> 
> *The "maintenance coat" system doesn't apply to the SRD. SRD is a one coat product, I will usually do 2 coats back to back, wet on wet to ensure enough product is absorbed into the wood.*
> ...


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Here ya go


So I take it your preference is SRD over TWP?

How much of a performance difference (longevity) are you seeing between SRD and SRD Semi-trans?

Looking at the Sikkens site SRD comes pre-mixed colors whereas SRD looks like it needs to be tinted by the dealer. Even though Cabot offers extra tint options they typically frowned on dealer tinting. Will there be a difference in performance for that reason between SRD and SRD Semi-trans, maybe in penetration?

I'm at the IL/WI border so our customers see the same type of weather. What life are you getting out of TWP and SRD?

Thanks again!


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

last time I called sikkens and asked about maintenance on the SRD, they told me you could not put a coat over an existing coat, and that it had to be stripped. I actually lost a job after they told me this. Please tell me that this is true and you are basing your answer on factory specs


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I just started another thread also...did not see this one
I too am looking for a new deck stain 
http://www.painttalk.com/f12/cabots-australian-timber-oil-9599/


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Quaid? said:


> last time I called sikkens and asked about maintenance on the SRD, they told me you could not put a coat over an existing coat, and that it had to be stripped. I actually lost a job after they told me this. Please tell me that this is true and you are basing your answer on factory specs



Almost every manufacturer is going to recommend stripping before re-coating. You and I both know its a user judgement call whether a coating needs to be stripped or not depending on wear.


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

Quaid? said:


> last time I called sikkens and asked about maintenance on the SRD, they told me you could not put a coat over an existing coat, and that it had to be stripped. I actually lost a job after they told me this. Please tell me that this is true and you are basing your answer on factory specs


Sikkens tech and application documents say:
_
"apply a maintenance coat when visually required."_


In the faq section they say:
_
"Cetol SRD should be maintained when the initial coat is completely weathered so that the preparation will remove the old coat and the new one goes directly on the wood._"


The Sikkens Hardwoods Care document says:

_"A maintenance coat of Cetol DEK or Cetol SRD should be applied every 12-18 months for long-term maintenance.

1. Follow the preparation procedure using 2oz of 100% powdered Tri-Sodium Phosphate (TSP) or phosphate free
substitute instead of 4ozs and the power washing option.
2. Apply one coat of Cetol DEK or Cetol SRD with a long haired natural bristle brush.
Note: Areas that have minimum wear should only be lightly coated."

_Some other Sikkens doc I can't find now says to do the water absorption test to determine whether a maintenance coat is required.

hmm...

The SRD Semi-trans looks to be a low VOC formula whereas the regular translucent SRD isn't. I wonder if they'd end up performing about the same because of that despite pigment difference.

NCPaint1, the SRD documents all say to not apply more than one coat. And TWP says to apply two, wet on wet.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Right wet on wet. They want to ensure that enough product has penetrated. The same applies with SRD. Either a saturation coat, or like what I prefer.....3-4 boards the whole length of them...then immediately go over it again. So I guess you could call that 1 coat or a wet on wet coat. The big thing is not putting a second coat over a dry coat.

The tintable SRD I try not to sell for horizontal surfaces. ( Personal opinion ) I dont think that the tinted version holds up as well as the pre-mixed colors. If someone really wants a specific or custom color I'll do it, buy I always tell them it wont last as long.


The hardwood application also recommends a light scuff sand before applying ( probably a good idea with any penetrating stain )


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Right wet on wet. They want to ensure that enough product has penetrated. The same applies with SRD. Either a saturation coat, or like what I prefer.....3-4 boards the whole length of them...then immediately go over it again. So I guess you could call that 1 coat or a wet on wet coat. The big thing is not putting a second coat over a dry coat.
> 
> The tintable SRD I try not to sell for horizontal surfaces. ( Personal opinion ) I dont think that the tinted version holds up as well as the pre-mixed colors. If someone really wants a specific or custom color I'll do it, buy I always tell them it wont last as long.
> 
> ...


They're specific on not applying a second coat of SRD. If that working for you, I'll probably test that method separately and see how it works compared to single.

When you say tintable SRD are you talking about the transluscent or semi-transparent? Have you had customers complain about the semi-trans which only comes in a tintable base?

Sikkens' preferred method for prep is sanding for all woods types.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vinuneuro said:


> They're specific on not applying a second coat of SRD. If that working for you, I'll probably test that method separately and see how it works compared to single.
> 
> *Then only put 1 coat. I dont know how to explain myself over the internet any better. Put on enough product so that you get maximum penetration without over applying/puddling. I achieve this by applying a coat to 3-4 full board lengths...then...immediately back brushing a second time to ensure evenness. Does that help? Would you call that 1 coat or 2? I call it "works just fine" :thumbsup:*
> 
> ...


.............


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Anybody have any experiance with this?

http://www.readyseal.com/


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> .............


Ahh. I wouldn't call backbrushing applying a second coat. 

Have you had complaints with the 190 tint base?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vinuneuro said:


> Ahh. I wouldn't call backbrushing applying a second coat.
> 
> Have you had complaints with the 190 tint base?


Right, that's why I was saying wet on wet. Explaining things in text format is difficult for me sometimes.

Only complaint on the 190 tint base is color fade on horizontal surfaces. I think the color/tints plays a big part in the fading


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> think the color/tints plays a big part in the fading


You mean certain tints with the 190 base fade worse? Which ones?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vinuneuro said:


> You mean certain tints with the 190 base fade worse? Which ones?


The same ones that fade quicker in exterior paints. Red Oxide, Green, Magenta. Probably the most noticeable.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

We've introduced a waterborne exterior wood preservative (think waterborne TWP) called Storm Shield. 

We are also very close to introducing a revised formulation of the TWP 500 Series, I think we'll be calling it the "1500 Series". Same properties as the 500 Series, but in a positive dry system.

NC (or anyone else for that matter), if you would like to play around with some of either, and see how they work, shoot me a message.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Cusingeorge said:


> We've introduced a waterborne exterior wood preservative (think waterborne TWP) called Storm Shield.
> 
> We are also very close to introducing a revised formulation of the TWP 500 Series, I think we'll be calling it the "1500 Series". Same properties as the 500 Series, but in a positive dry system.
> 
> NC (or anyone else for that matter), if you would like to play around with some of either, and see how they work, shoot me a message.


We already carry the storm shield....can't say that its catching on. The name sucks and needs to be changed. People don't associate TWP and Storm Shield as being from the same company. I tell people that its made by Gemini, the same company that makes TWP. I get the response "gemiwho?"

I don't know what's going to happen when the VOC laws change here in Michigan. The 100 will no longer be compliant and the 500 aka "neverdry" concerns me. Storm shield needs a new name and a new label and it might catch on. Im hoping the new product you speak of George will be a viable alternative to the 500 series.

On a side note. You guys really need field reps. I have a store/field Rep who lives a few states away. I can't even remember his name, I've spoken to him a handful of times and seen him less in 14 years.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> We already carry the storm shield....can't say that its catching on. The name sucks and needs to be changed. People don't associate TWP and Storm Shield as being from the same company. I tell people that its made by Gemini, the same company that makes TWP. I get the response "gemiwho?"
> 
> I don't know what's going to happen when the VOC laws change here in Michigan. The 100 will no longer be compliant and the 500 aka "neverdry" concerns me. Storm shield needs a new name and a new label and it might catch on. Im hoping the new product you speak of George will be a viable alternative to the 500 series.
> 
> On a side note. You guys really need field reps. I have a store/field Rep who lives a few states away. I can't even remember his name, I've spoken to him a handful of times and seen him less in 14 years.


That is not good, especially for deck products (probably the most prone to complaints of any product out there, either due to over expectations of customers or misapplication).


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

I know we need representation in your area, we need more of this in more than just your area. (you are always welcome to contact me).

If the name "Storm Shield" sucks, what name would you use and why?

Unfortunately, Gemini has never (and may never) be a recognized name in retail, because that's not really what "brought us to the dance", it's the painting contractor's loyalty that got us where we are today. We are working on plans to increase brand awareness in retail, but at best, that is long-term project.

As far as the 500 series goes, we haven't heard anything about the VOC laws changing in MI, I just checked into this last week for another distributor (not located in MI). You should ask about the 1500 series the next time you place an order and see what you can get, if you need help with this, shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to help you.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

New names......hmmmm....TWP H2O......Waterborne TWP....TWP Oil Free......TWP Storm Shield.....I don't care what it is as long as TWP is somewhere on the label. Right now it appears as a completely different line rather than an addition.


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Right wet on wet. They want to ensure that enough product has penetrated. The same applies with SRD. Either a saturation coat, or like what I prefer.....3-4 boards the whole length of them...then immediately go over it again. So I guess you could call that 1 coat or a wet on wet coat. The big thing is not putting a second coat over a dry coat.
> 
> The tintable SRD I try not to sell for horizontal surfaces. ( Personal opinion ) I dont think that the tinted version holds up as well as the pre-mixed colors. If someone really wants a specific or custom color I'll do it, buy I always tell them it wont last as long.
> 
> ...


BINGO!!! You won't believe how many people don't apply oil stains wet on wet, but do it the wrong way, wet on dry!!!!! Anyways, as for as the cabot semi trans wood preservative, that is cabot's answer to a legal 350 voc that works good and can be used in all regions. I'd go with that if you can't get the 550 voc stains by cabot.


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> BINGO!!! You won't believe how many people don't apply oil stains wet on wet, but do it the wrong way, wet on dry!!!!! Anyways, as for as the cabot semi trans wood preservative, that is cabot's answer to a legal 350 voc that works good and can be used in all regions. I'd go with that if you can't get the 550 voc stains by cabot.


Have you used the new Preservative semi-trans stain? It's only a month or so old, so I'm skeptical since no one will know.

I did considering their original 550 semi-trans, but some people reported it attracting mildew pretty badly which worries me. I can get that stuff since the WI border isn't too far away.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

we did a large deck last week with Cabot solid oil decking stain after light power sanding/palm sand.Color was BM beige grey,it came out great.My question is how does a waterborne work on bare wood????


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

NC, 

PM Inbound in regards to the VOC laws on TWP.


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

Cusingeorge said:


> NC,
> 
> PM Inbound in regards to the VOC laws on TWP.


Would you please Cc me on that.


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

Rick the painter said:


> we did a large deck last week with Cabot solid oil decking stain after light power sanding/palm sand.Color was BM beige grey,it came out great.My question is how does a waterborne work on bare wood????


I've used Cabots solid acrylic stain on a few decks. It worked great and no complaints or call-backs after 4 years.


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vinuneuro said:


> Have you used the new Preservative semi-trans stain? It's only a month or so old, so I'm skeptical since no one will know.
> 
> I did considering their original 550 semi-trans, but some people reported it attracting mildew pretty badly which worries me. I can get that stuff since the WI border isn't too far away.


I sell over 100 gallons a week of the cabot 0300 series semi trans stain. No bad reports what-so-ever. It does have mildicides in the product, but the cabot wood preservative supposedly HAS MUCH MORE than the Cabot 0300 series. No, I haven't used it yet, but I sure will soon. I'll let you know. It's not a big problem for Big Bear, as we live in a dry mountain climate, not much moisture up here. I would suggest going with the Wood preservative over the 0300 series, personally.


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## vinuneuro (Jun 26, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> I sell over 100 gallons a week of the cabot 0300 series semi trans stain. No bad reports what-so-ever. It does have mildicides in the product, but the cabot wood preservative supposedly HAS MUCH MORE than the Cabot 0300 series. No, I haven't used it yet, but I sure will soon. I'll let you know. It's not a big problem for Big Bear, as we live in a dry mountain climate, not much moisture up here. I would suggest going with the Wood preservative over the 0300 series, personally.


I'm going to starting getting the 0300 from Wisconsin. In the mean time, I'll run a test with Wood Preservative 4300. 

What life are you getting from 0300? The VOC version 6300 is pathetic.


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vinuneuro said:


> I'm going to starting getting the 0300 from Wisconsin. In the mean time, I'll run a test with Wood Preservative 4300.
> 
> What life are you getting from 0300? The VOC version 6300 is pathetic.



life meaning voc or longevity? it's a 550 voc, worst case scenario, on the south side you have to recoat every 3 years with the semi trans and every year and a half to two years on horizontal surfaces.


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## C Parks Enterprise (Jul 11, 2012)

I think Storm Shield is a crap product. I spend about 20k a year on TWP and had no idea that Storm Shield was the same company. I can see why Gemini would not want people to know it is their product. 




NCPaint1 said:


> We already carry the storm shield....can't say that its catching on. The name sucks and needs to be changed. People don't associate TWP and Storm Shield as being from the same company. I tell people that its made by Gemini, the same company that makes TWP. I get the response "gemiwho?"
> 
> I don't know what's going to happen when the VOC laws change here in Michigan. The 100 will no longer be compliant and the 500 aka "neverdry" concerns me. Storm shield needs a new name and a new label and it might catch on. Im hoping the new product you speak of George will be a viable alternative to the 500 series.
> 
> On a side note. You guys really need field reps. I have a store/field Rep who lives a few states away. I can't even remember his name, I've spoken to him a handful of times and seen him less in 14 years.


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