# Problems with 508 in Black



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Had to do a Theatre wall in flat black. It was 20ft high x 30 ft wide. They wanted it as flat as possible so we decided to do it in the BM 508. (Last people did it in a Satin)..We added extender and had 2 people rolling. Even after 2 coats it looked like garbage. In hind sight thinking we should have just gone with the Regal Ultimatte, but wanted it as flat as possible.. Could not get rid if the zebra stripes. Almost like the colourant was flashing.. We used 18mm micro fibre sleeves. Maybe too much nap?? For the love of gawd will be losing sleep tonight.🙄.thoughts?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

guardz and maybe I would switch to regal flat which comes in a stock black


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> guardz and maybe I would switch to regal flat which comes in a stock black


Regal comes in Flat?!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Regal comes in Flat?!


yes... though I don't see it comes in a stock black for the canadian version.
US: N547-80 (stock black)




__





Regal Select Interior Paint


Regal Select Interior has been a trusted brand for more than 50 years and is formulated for easy cleaning in a wide variety of sheens.




www.benjaminmoore.com





canada:




__





REGAL Select Interior Paint


REGAL Select Interior is a trusted brand that is formulated for easy cleaning and great scrubbability in a wide variety of sheens.




www.benjaminmoore.com


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

That’s certainly not an applicator error and looks like pigment floatation. You can determine if a coating is susceptible to pigment flotation by conducting a simple rub-up test.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> That’s certainly not an applicator error and looks like pigment floatation. You can determine if a coating is susceptible to pigment flotation by conducting a simple rub-up test.


Totally what I was thinking. What would be the likely cause for this?? Obviously black is the worst colour to work with and I agree a premixed black would likely be a better option..?Or maybe a product with more sheen? Have had a real run of black painted projects lately.. 😆


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Totally what I was thinking. What would be the likely cause for this?? Obviously black is the worst colour to work with and I agree a premixed black would likely be a better option..?Or maybe a product with more sheen? Have had a real run of black painted projects lately.. 😆


Pigment floatation is when pigments separate into distinct layers due to pigment dispersion instability and other factors. When disturbing the pigments by overlapping into the wet film with each pass of the roller, the underlying pigment layer becomes exposed. As far as solution, I’d try a pre-mixed black and would nix the extender.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

There’s a pretty good example of a rub-out test illustrating pigment floating in the following video:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> There’s a pretty good example of a rub-out test illustrating pigment floating in the following video:


Ive seen that when mixing older cans of paint and sometimes deep base stuff with a high pigment load, you could even see it in the can. One day I started to premix all deep base products for 2 minutes in the 3 axis vortex shakers prior to tinting and I don't recall having any issues after that.

Also that's an interesting way to get a draw down, doesn't control for mil thickness?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Older unopened cans of paint with high pigment loads can and do result in pigment floating…the fresher the paint, the less likely it’ll happen.
Edit:
The use of extenders (not the glycol ethers or acrylic resins in common extenders, but additional water in extenders) and even thinning with just a splash of water can also destabilize the dispersion and cause floating.


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## stenhouse (Nov 2, 2019)

since we have a mix of painters and store owners here, I'm curious if the original poster should ask for a refund for his paint? Is this defective paint?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I have had problems with microfiber and flat finishes. Not with the finish per se, just matting up after absorbing so much paint, and not being able to release nicely after some time rolling.
Is that black? looks like a dark grey next to the door and base?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stenhouse said:


> since we have a mix of painters and store owners here, I'm curious if the original poster should ask for a refund for his paint? Is this defective paint?


possibly; I can count on my hand how many gallons of 4X base 508 I ever sold so it may have been old can and not mixed as well as the store intended.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I have had problems with microfiber and flat finishes. Not with the finish per se, just matting up after absorbing so much paint, and not being able to release nicely after some time rolling.
> Is that black? looks like a dark grey next to the door and base?


Good point, maybe switch to a superfab


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

When you back rolled did you start at the top and roll down and only roll down rather than up and down. That's what do when I have dark colors and it helps sometimes.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm not a fan of microfibers with flat paint, I'd switch to something like a prodooz and like kmp said start at the top and only roll down. Obviously a stock black would be best but I feel like trying to find that in a flat is going to be hard. Either way, since you're doing it again I'd switch products.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Redux said:


> Pigment floatation is when pigments separate into distinct layers due to pigment dispersion instability and other factors. When disturbing the pigments by overlapping into the wet film with each pass of the roller, the underlying pigment layer becomes exposed. As far as solution, I’d try a pre-mixed black and would nix the extender.


As a person selling paint I did the following 3 steps. 1. To check for flashing or colorant separation, take a draw down card. dip 2 fingers in and apply heavily, swirl around to the size of a tennis or baseball. take your first finger and apply in 1 direction across the circle. take your middle finger and spread across the circle in the opposite direction. This is called cross hatching, watch for color separation. @. Allow the sample to dry or blow-dry and look for inconsistencies. The pictures from above, notice the shadowboxing around the outlet. I notice the overlap differences with the roller crawling up the wall, inconsistent application, wither wrong type of cover was used? I prefer lambswool or ArrowWorthy 9/16th for a flat. 3 or Third and I cannot emphasize this enough. Always, I repeat, always use a standardized or factory batch black from the manufacturer. 

Since the beginning of time, there has never been a true flat black. Many a can will say flat, but its always a matte at best, at least I have never seen it. I have always told my contractor to resell his customer on a matte finish to avoid these problems. If your customer insisted that you use Ben Moore, I absolutely believe the above mentioned or pictured is because of the roller cover used. Go with the smallest nap lambswool or ask your ben Moore dealer for suggestions. I would give you a replacement gallon with my recommended roller cover, but I am retired. lol


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> As a person selling paint I did the following 3 steps. 1. To check for flashing or colorant separation, take a draw down card. dip 2 fingers in and apply heavily, swirl around to the size of a tennis or baseball. take your first finger and apply in 1 direction across the circle. take your middle finger and spread across the circle in the opposite direction. This is called cross hatching, watch for color separation. @. Allow the sample to dry or blow-dry and look for inconsistencies. The pictures from above, notice the shadowboxing around the outlet. I notice the overlap differences with the roller crawling up the wall, inconsistent application, wither wrong type of cover was used? I prefer lambswool or ArrowWorthy 9/16th for a flat. 3 or Third and I cannot emphasize this enough. Always, I repeat, always use a standardized or factory batch black from the manufacturer.
> 
> Since the beginning of time, there has never been a true flat black. Many a can will say flat, but its always a matte at best, at least I have never seen it. I have always told my contractor to resell his customer on a matte finish to avoid these problems. If your customer insisted that you use Ben Moore, I absolutely believe the above mentioned or pictured is because of the roller cover used. Go with the smallest nap lambswool or ask your ben Moore dealer for suggestions. I would give you a replacement gallon with my recommended roller cover, but I am retired. lol


Its hell getting old. First question1. What is the square footage? Looks like 5 or 600 square foot on one wall. 2. how many gallons used? Was a primer used? Were the walls sanded? appears to be sanded with the dust on the baseboard. Appears to be over rollled, that is the roller became dry at a certain point and lifted the finish coat. The roller lines are in an exact roller pattern, The paint was not applied in the W method of application, tried to make the appearance by rolling from bottom to top and then when moved over caused the zebra striping appearance. Conclusion, either not enough paint used or over-rolled the substrate ending in the blotchy finish. Pics do not show color separation. I'm sorry, but I still like you. Have a good day


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I have had problems with microfiber and flat finishes. Not with the finish per se, just matting up after absorbing so much paint, and not being able to release nicely after some time rolling.
> Is that black? looks like a dark grey next to the door and base?


That's what I was thinking!! 🙄


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

kmp said:


> When you back rolled did you start at the top and roll down and only roll down rather than up and down. That's what do when I have dark colors and it helps sometimes.


I was thinking of doing that, but walls were too tall (20ft) and really didn't think with a flat paint that it necessary!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Its hell getting old. First question1. What is the square footage? Looks like 5 or 600 square foot on one wall. 2. how many gallons used? Was a primer used? Were the walls sanded? appears to be sanded with the dust on the baseboard. Appears to be over rollled, that is the roller became dry at a certain point and lifted the finish coat. The roller lines are in an exact roller pattern, The paint was not applied in the W method of application, tried to make the appearance by rolling from bottom to top and then when moved over caused the zebra striping appearance. Conclusion, either not enough paint used or over-rolled the substrate ending in the blotchy finish. Pics do not show color separation. I'm sorry, but I still like you. Have a good day


HAHA. Thanks. Ya, its a big wall. We drained 2 gallons, but did not skimp on the mil thicknes. Infact it looked worse at the side we started on where the mil thickness was greatest. I am chalking it up to a combination of maybe the thick microfiber rollers or the extender or the 4x base with so much colourant. Or a perfect storm of all of the above. Could I have rolled a coat if gardz on first. Sure. But honestly we were trying to keep costs down for the theatre as they are always running on a limited budget. Also it was Black over black, so was secretly hoping for a 1 and done, but even 2 looked like poo.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I was thinking of doing that, but walls were too tall (20ft) and really didn't think with a flat paint that it necessary!


I either have lead poisoning or hardening of the arteries. What was the temperature at time of application? Too cold may cause the paint to set up too quickly causing the zebra like appearance when you backrolled. The problem I have seen recently is high end interiors set up too quickly. I had the same problem with a gallon of emerald applied on my bedroom wall


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Ive had the 508 do that to me two times when it was tinted a darker color. I quit using it if its not white or close too it. Its a great paint in white but otherwise not so much.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mike mineral spirits said:


> I either have lead poisoning or hardening of the arteries. What was the temperature at time of application? Too cold may cause the paint to set up too quickly causing the zebra like appearance when you backrolled. The problem I have seen recently is high end interiors set up too quickly. I had the same problem with a gallon of emerald applied on my bedroom wall


On the first coat it was warmer because there were baseboard heaters directly beneath the wall. We shut them off for the second coat, But It was still room temperature..


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

The following striping was due to pigment floating w/Regal Select flat. I initially discounted the idea of pigment floating due to the color having a low pigment load, yet after trying every application method and roller cover under the sun, including breaking out the 18”, it still striped. There was also some pretty egregious hat-banding. It wasn’t until doing a rub-out test I discovered it was pigment floating. I also noticed when scuffed, the underlying pigment layer where scuffed yielded a completely different color.

I ended up switching to Ben which I’d never used before which resolved the issue.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> On the first coat it was warmer because there were baseboard heaters directly beneath the wall. We shut them off for the second coat, But It was still room temperature..


Get on a ladder where the electrical outlet is located. Take a magnifying glass, is the color separating? it will have a clear line of linear separation, rub your hand across the variance or lines on the wall. Is the surface smooth or does it have a slight ripple? A slight ripple would mean you rolled over it too late while the paint has already began to set up. This usually causes a pimpling effect, otherwise, there maybe a chance the store put too much colorant for the base. That is the wrong base may have been used or suggested by the factory. Here are the maximum amount of colorant that may be used, this was told to me by a blue star paint chemist in the early 90's. Only 3 ounces per base. that is max in a white/pastel is 3 a medium base is 6, a deep base is 9 and a ultra or clean would be 12. I know the label on Rustoleum products have this warning for 2 ounces on their roofing products. I believe mentioned this in another thread, My store paid out over $200,000 in a complaint on a floor with 12 ounces being put into a deep base color? A lot of Formula Book colors at PPG also violated this basic principal so there were a tremendous amount of touch-up complaints. Colorant only until a few years ago used to be ethylene glycol based, which is virtually anti freeze. Colorant will not dry in its untinted form in the can. Yes, a darker color totally effects the performance of the paint. A dead flat will never be achieved if the paint is tinted because of the colorant. Black, blue, red, does not matter, it will always be at least a matte. I do not care what the mavens or powers to be say from the factory, or what the factory spec sheets say.. What happens at the lab level is not what happens in real life, especially in Florida as most contractors know. 

Ask any paint store employee, when a light color is tinted for matching, it will dry at least twice as fast as a deep color. Colorant absolutely affects performance. In Florida, compare a white car versus a black or red vehicle? The paint on the white will always outlast the deeper colors on any vehicle. Same goes for houses. Its a untold truth that few store employees know or comprehend. Have a great Sunday.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> Get on a ladder where the electrical outlet is located. Take a magnifying glass, is the color separating? it will have a clear line of linear separation, rub your hand across the variance or lines on the wall. Is the surface smooth or does it have a slight ripple? A slight ripple would mean you rolled over it too late while the paint has already began to set up. This usually causes a pimpling effect, otherwise, there maybe a chance the store put too much colorant for the base. That is the wrong base may have been used or suggested by the factory. Here are the maximum amount of colorant that may be used, this was told to me by a blue star paint chemist in the early 90's. Only 3 ounces per base. that is max in a white/pastel is 3 a medium base is 6, a deep base is 9 and a ultra or clean would be 12. I know the label on Rustoleum products have this warning for 2 ounces on their roofing products. I believe mentioned this in another thread, My store paid out over $200,000 in a complaint on a floor with 12 ounces being put into a deep base color? A lot of Formula Book colors at PPG also violated this basic principal so there were a tremendous amount of touch-up complaints. Colorant only until a few years ago used to be ethylene glycol based, which is virtually anti freeze. Colorant will not dry in its untinted form in the can. Yes, a darker color totally effects the performance of the paint. A dead flat will never be achieved if the paint is tinted because of the colorant. Black, blue, red, does not matter, it will always be at least a matte. I do not care what the mavens or powers to be say from the factory, or what the factory spec sheets say.. What happens at the lab level is not what happens in real life, especially in Florida as most contractors know.
> 
> Ask any paint store employee, when a light color is tinted for matching, it will dry at least twice as fast as a deep color. Colorant absolutely affects performance. In Florida, compare a white car versus a black or red vehicle? The paint on the white will always outlast the deeper colors on any vehicle. Same goes for houses. Its a untold truth that few store employees know or comprehend. Have a great Sunday.


The reverse is also true in tinting paint. Use too little colorant and the finish will have a translucent appearance. Lets say 3 ounces used in a deep base will produce an unusual effect. Possibly what pictures denote. I take it you used an 18" cover then backrolled the wall. The new pictures are more pronounced then the first two. Use the paint in the can and use the cross hatch, is the separation obvious. How about opening the can when left overnight, does the colorant separate in the can. Too little or too much will have the same effect. The colorant will gravitate towards the clear resin, like a flower is about to bloom. If the colorant is at fault, virtually every ben Moore store will have a complaint with the Black colorant. Ask the dealer if he has any other complaints pending?

20 years ago I used to have the finest of Faux Finishers come into the store. They would buy a gallon of satin Ultra deep or clear base, we would take their ketchup bottles and dispense colorant into their bottles. They would add small amounts of colorant to the tint base and produce that swirling or rubbed effect on their job site. Their workmanship could not be duplicated at the store level. Those of you who can remember when a paint outlet would add a dollar for tinting charges A gallon of white would be 12 and a gallon of deep would be 14 and so on. Much better pics, but I still cannot tell?


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

mike mineral spirits said:


> The reverse is also true in tinting paint. Use too little colorant and the finish will have a translucent appearance. Lets say 3 ounces used in a deep base will produce an unusual effect. Possibly what pictures denote. I take it you used an 18" cover then backrolled the wall. The new pictures are more pronounced then the first two. Use the paint in the can and use the cross hatch, is the separation obvious. How about opening the can when left overnight, does the colorant separate in the can. Too little or too much will have the same effect. The colorant will gravitate towards the clear resin, like a flower is about to bloom. If the colorant is at fault, virtually every ben Moore store will have a complaint with the Black colorant. Ask the dealer if he has any other complaints pending?
> 
> 20 years ago I used to have the finest of Faux Finishers come into the store. They would buy a gallon of satin Ultra deep or clear base, we would take their ketchup bottles and dispense colorant into their bottles. They would add small amounts of colorant to the tint base and produce that swirling or rubbed effect on their job site. Their workmanship could not be duplicated at the store level. Those of you who can remember when a paint outlet would add a dollar for tinting charges A gallon of white would be 12 and a gallon of deep would be 14 and so on. Much better pics, but I still cannot tell?


One more shot, ha ha ha. A tinted paint that is shook for under 3 minutes using a deep, ultra or clear base at the store level may also lead to these complications. I'm sure your dealer told you to box your paint before applying. The under activation or shaking will be noticeable while pouring the paint from one can to another. When you apply the sample onto a card, the colorant separation will be seen immediately. All else fails, just go to a different supplier, have them match your paint. If no problem with the new paint, send your bill to Ben Moore. I seriously doubt this will happen.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

mike mineral spirits said:


> One more shot, ha ha ha. A tinted paint that is shook for under 3 minutes using a deep, ultra or clear base at the store level may also lead to these complications. I'm sure your dealer told you to box your paint before applying. The under activation or shaking will be noticeable while pouring the paint from one can to another. When you apply the sample onto a card, the colorant separation will be seen immediately. All else fails, just go to a different supplier, have them match your paint. If no problem with the new paint, send your bill to Ben Moore. I seriously doubt this will happen.


3 minutes often isn't enough even in a vortex especially when a can like 508-4X is likely to sit on the shelf for a long time (years). Need to pre-shake for a minute then give it 6-8 minutes in the vortex

regarding colorant fills12flz wouldn't physically fit into a 3x base, it would over flow so doubt that would happen. UPC verification when tinting also prevents this unless the store is stupid enough to turn it off (Looking at a local competitor who mocked me for taking too long to scan a barcode while simultaneously complaining about their amount of mis-tints).

BTW Sherwin emerald designer ultra bases have 16-20 oz colorant lol


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 3 minutes often isn't enough even in a vortex especially when a can like 508-4X is likely to sit on the shelf for a long time (years). Need to pre-shake for a minute then give it 6-8 minutes in the vortex
> 
> regarding colorant fills12flz wouldn't physically fit into a 3x base, it would over flow so doubt that would happen. UPC verification when tinting also prevents this unless the store is stupid enough to turn it off (Looking at a local competitor who mocked me for taking too long to scan a barcode while simultaneously complaining about their amount of mis-tints).
> 
> BTW Sherwin emerald designer ultra bases have 16-20 oz colorant lol


Great points on shaking and pre shaking, the fill levels at SW and PPG were not that controlled by the factory. The cans were filled by weight and not volume. 

SW always used Scanning the barcodes in their tinTing process. The problem @ PPG was their order entry system. An employee always had to manually enter the complete formula on a match. Imagine 5 colorants with a lot of Bx-46.75/48ths etc and then entering the formula again at the time of writing an invoice? The new Elevate system a 2022 addition should reduce their mistints, however, the errors will continue from previous formulas. Let me give you an example, Take Einstein and have him key enter 99 lines to add. The average human will make 3 key entry errors. The PPG order entry is done a lot at the tint machine. Put or key enter the tint amounts and the screen is 3 feet away, its very common to enter 15/48s on the DX line instead of the Ex line. SW had all their formulas transferred from the order entry screen. Manual entry was virtually non existent thus eliminating key entry errors. Problem was especially elevated when a product was purchased at a different location. This is why the MisTint ratio is 10 times that of SW Human error. Improper training, Superiors do not know how to open a can of paint, much less tint a gallon. 

The color eye utilized by PPG is horrible. Most of their employees do not understand what the readings are like "Delta" when choosing a formula. Absolutely amazing the ignorance at the corporate level. Virtually all their decisions are based on cost only. In 2022 their offer to a store manager is below 40k a year. All paint companies usually exceeded $40k a year in the early 90's. Most of their managerial hires have absolutely Zip paint store experience. Imagine giving advice on whether to use a latex or alkyd. Give me a gallon of oil and they do not understand what you are talking about. Yes, they do have a few long time veterans, but they are becoming extinct. Their low end lines like Mopako and Speed-Hide Exterior are popular by overseas dealers. The siloxane and poly siloxane lines are very popular {PSX700 and PSXOne} and have made the durathane lines near extinct. Resin availability dictates what they make and the Epoxies have become very rare. It is usual and customary for a SW manager to earn in excess of 100k a year with base and bonuses. My city 24 stores and probably 4 or 5 have met the 100k. In 2017 I heard a city manager say there were quite a few millionaires working at the store and sales level in the city, Salary and a Company stock savings would guarantee this. I had well over 500 shares of SW stock in 2006, unfortunately due to health reasons I was forced to sell most of them. 500 shares would be about 400k earlier this year with stock splits {5for 1} a couple of years ago. Have a great day.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Had to do a Theatre wall in flat black. It was 20ft high x 30 ft wide. They wanted it as flat as possible so we decided to do it in the BM 508. (Last people did it in a Satin)..We added extender and had 2 people rolling. Even after 2 coats it looked like garbage. In hind sight thinking we should have just gone with the Regal Ultimatte, but wanted it as flat as possible.. Could not get rid if the zebra stripes. Almost like the colourant was flashing.. We used 18mm micro fibre sleeves. Maybe too much nap?? For the love of gawd will be losing sleep tonight.🙄.thoughts?


I don't recall ever having problems with pigment floatation so I don't know if any of my comments would be of use, but if this was my job I might consider the following:

1. Try to talk the owners out of using a flat finish if they want black. I just painted an exterior door a couple months ago. since the front door has a storm door 1 foot away, great heat is generated during the summer and lighter colors might have been better, but the customer wanted black. I specified BM Moore glo, but the customer went to my paint store and settled on BM Low Lustre and marked it into my proposal. I figured that if the people at the paint store recommended Low Lustre who am I to disagree. After 2 coats were on the front door and I had gone home the customer touched the newly dried paint and I could easily see where she touched the following day. I rolled another coat over the flat panels and told her not to touch the surface for at least a couple of days. After the whole job was finished she realized that she had chosen the wrong paint for the door, so I will probably go back in the spring and repaint with a higher sheen black to avoid the easily seen finger marks. (any recommendations on the best black paint to avoid finger and smudge marks would be welcome.) I am now wondering what you 20 foot walls will end up looking like from floor to about 6 feet up after they are subjected to the reach of human hands. My guess is it won't be pretty.

2. I am wondering what material he walls are made of and how porous the surface is. One would think that the satin finish underneath would have sealed the surface before you painted flat, but if not, I would apply 2 coats of Gardz (the directions say to let the first coat dry and then touch up dull spots that can be seen, but I find it much easier to roll a 2nd coat as it takes the guess work out of trying to do a thorough job and gives peace of mind, at least to me.) The second coat uses half as much material and takes half the time to roll. Now your surface will be sealed and your wall will probably still be wet where you started when you finish at the other end, giving you the maximum wet edge time to work the paint.

3. I would use a 9" (or 14" if you are confident that the walls are reasonably flat - they generally aren't flat at Marina Towers in Chicago where I do a lot of painting and can only use a 9") Wooster Micro Plush, taking care to bevel the edges with a curved pair of scissors to cut down on roller lines. I like the Micro Plush line (they come in 5/16", 9/16" and 3/4) as they seem to leave a fairly uniform finish rolling both up and down, although I do try to finish rolling each area from top to bottom. Before I found them I remember rolling a very long continuous wall at Marina Towers from the bathroom into the bedroom with floor to ceiling windows at the end. Even though I had finished each section rolling only top to bottom I saw a series of lines when I was done. After using that roller (I think it was a 1/4 or 3/8 Purdy) on another wall I watched the roller cover as I was rolling from top to bottom. To my horror I could see that the roller cover was exhibiting the reverse mohair effect. While rolling down, one half of the roller left a smooth finish (as mohairs are designed to do) while the other half was leaving a rough finish as when happens when the mohair is rolled the wrong way! Needless to say, I immediately threw that roller cover away and found one more suitable. The GC (who is my friend) was concerned with how the long wall turned out. I told him to go home and I would take care of it. I then rolled 2 coats of Gardz on the wall, followed by a coat of finish paint. All was well the next day. On your 20' walls, if you think the 18mm nap is too much I would recommend trying the 9/16 Micro Plush.

I don't envy you with this job and hope you find a good solution although I think that even if you end up with a great finish with flat black paint, the finish will be mucked up by hands, elbows and other scuffs in short order.

futtyos


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

futtyos said:


> I don't recall ever having problems with pigment floatation so I don't know if any of my comments would be of use, but if this was my job I might consider the following:
> 
> 1. Try to talk the owners out of using a flat finish if they want black. I just painted an exterior door a couple months ago. since the front door has a storm door 1 foot away, great heat is generated during the summer and lighter colors might have been better, but the customer wanted black. I specified BM Moore glo, but the customer went to my paint store and settled on BM Low Lustre and marked it into my proposal. I figured that if the people at the paint store recommended Low Lustre who am I to disagree. After 2 coats were on the front door and I had gone home the customer touched the newly dried paint and I could easily see where she touched the following day. I rolled another coat over the flat panels and told her not to touch the surface for at least a couple of days. After the whole job was finished she realized that she had chosen the wrong paint for the door, so I will probably go back in the spring and repaint with a higher sheen black to avoid the easily seen finger marks. (any recommendations on the best black paint to avoid finger and smudge marks would be welcome.) I am now wondering what you 20 foot walls will end up looking like from floor to about 6 feet up after they are subjected to the reach of human hands. My guess is it won't be pretty.
> 
> ...


I never had success using latex on elevator doors, commercial garage doors lets say like a fire department and finally aluminum windows, but many a manufacturer had claimed their product would work. . The smooth finish is very hard to paint, that is you would need a product with superior adhesion strength and hardness for touch. Alumium windows and doors have been refinished in latex during the past 15 years in our area, however, do not work. Peeling, fading/flattening and dirt accumulation are guaranteed after a few/couple of years. I would recommend an epoxy (interior) Urethane or Acrylic Siloxane product. We have a tremendous amount of commercial blogs and High-rises on the Resorts on the beach from Key West to the Jupiter inlet, The latexes are an obvious failure. Hardness is the only answer in my opinion. Costs? At least triple your bid depending on accessibility to the project. Have a good day 

Color floatation or separation is easy to detect by looking at the end result. Try another test on a piece of drywall, take a 4X4 area and roll it out. Don't have a separate piece?, mask it off with tape, Using the 2020 or CP66 beige tape will indicate the hardness of your finish coat see if you can achieve a solid appearance in a small test area.. Top of the line from manufacturers have been terrible to apply. Emerald, I did not like the appearance when it came to leveling, Ultra Last is the worst paint when it came to keeping a wet edge, brushing or rolling will show an obvious and distinct difference. I've never handled a gallon of the BM508 but play with it on a separate substrate and see what the shortcomings are? A paint such as Breakthrough does not keep a wet edge and was designed for specific reasons. e.g. front doors, in and out applications and I recommend spray application for a mirror like finish.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Had to do a Theatre wall in flat black. It was 20ft high x 30 ft wide. They wanted it as flat as possible so we decided to do it in the BM 508. (Last people did it in a Satin)..We added extender and had 2 people rolling. Even after 2 coats it looked like garbage. In hind sight thinking we should have just gone with the Regal Ultimatte, but wanted it as flat as possible.. Could not get rid if the zebra stripes. Almost like the colourant was flashing.. We used 18mm micro fibre sleeves. Maybe too much nap?? For the love of gawd will be losing sleep tonight.🙄.thoughts?


We do business with two Theatre companies that produce all the Broadway show sets. We have been providing them with aqua lock ready mixed black in fives and gallons and it works extraordinarily well and is dead flat


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

NACE said:


> We do business with two Theatre companies that produce all the Broadway show sets. We have been providing them with aqua lock ready mixed black in fives and gallons and it works extraordinarily well and is dead flat


Janovic in Long Island City used to provide us with their proprietary dead flat waterborne poly which was specifically developed as a clear coat to be used over paint on theatrical sets and was used for filmography/cinematography to reduce glare during shoots. We used it to clear coat dark flat colors such as black which prevented marring.


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## mike mineral spirits (Dec 5, 2020)

Redux said:


> Janovic in Long Island City used to provide us with their proprietary dead flat waterborne poly which was specifically developed as a clear coat to be used over paint on theatrical sets and was used for filmography/cinematography to reduce glare during shoots. We used it to clear coat dark flat colors such as black which prevented marring.


One point I did not mention about the "zebra like effect" on the finish coat. Viscosity of a coating has everything to do with the leveling of a paint. Higher viscosity means less self leveling. The higher the solids by volume of a material, the higher the viscosity. Classic example, lets say we wanted a material that absolutely covered in one coat,, we bring the titanium level to 3 lbs per gallon. One coat coverage, absolutely, but the wall will look like it was painted with a rope? Higher solids of the colorant like PPG {previously explained}. the more uneven the finish. How thick is the 508 Black? I sold a minor film studio in Dania Florida, they used SW 400 flat B30w4651 on all their colors with the exception of the "Green"? FWIW. Have a good day


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mike mineral spirits said:


> One point I did not mention about the "zebra like effect" on the finish coat. Viscosity of a coating has everything to do with the leveling of a paint. Higher viscosity means less self leveling. The higher the solids by volume of a material, the higher the viscosity. Classic example, lets say we wanted a material that absolutely covered in one coat,, we bring the titanium level to 3 lbs per gallon. One coat coverage, absolutely, but the wall will look like it was painted with a rope? Higher solids of the colorant like PPG {previously explained}. the more uneven the finish. How thick is the 508 Black? I sold a minor film studio in Dania Florida, they used SW 400 flat B30w4651 on all their colors with the exception of the "Green"? FWIW. Have a good day


 I have another theory that has kind of been mentioned already. With the paint being so flat and the thick nap micro fibre roller, I'm feeling a bit of the shag carpet theory here. Like when you run your hand one way through the carpet and then the other it looks like a completely different colour. Light hitting the nap at different angles.. So maybe rolling the same direction on the backroll could have worked..?And yes a clear poly would help with the marring for sure. Although the dead flat finish was the biggest concern for projections and glare.. Thanks for all the feedback! You folks are awesome.


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## Shum218 (25 d ago)

I agree with a stock black. We have used promar 200 flat in theaters 3/8 woven cover without problems lay off in one direction


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

I think back rolling is the mistake here, you cannot or it will flash. Mix paint and box it all before starting. Thicker nap and leave it alone. Micro fiber nap is way to thin.


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

No extender and no micro fiber and no back rolling it will break the sheen. Mix it well and box it all. Heavier nap 1/2 minimum and apply generously, just not to the point of runs. The more you mess with deep colts in application the more issues you will have.


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

Meant deep colors.


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

Also just joined had some glitches on multiple replies.

however the other thing is with BM black (it does look gray here) I have them shoot straight black instead what the Genex system says to do on tint. Because it adds white to the formula..thus gray black. Hold the white!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

We had a pigment floating issue with Aura Exterior Low Luster, and I posted a pic in an earlier thread of a rub-out test with the Aura in question illustrating the pigment layering which was several shades off. I first noticed it when touching up and the touch-ups were several shades off.


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

Ok newbie so glad to join here..last thing why the hell did they want it flat? I get it for screen reflection but in a theater it will burnish super easy and no way in hall it can be cleaned. Ahh ok feel better just had to say it. You know painters paint in the brain.

MCP


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

Redux said:


> We had a pigment floating issue with Aura Exterior Low Luster, and I posted a pic in an earlier thread of a rub-out test with the Aura in question illustrating the pigment layering which was several shades off. I first noticed it when touching up and the touch-ups were several shades off.


Ya I’m not an Aura fan here and the problem with low luster is that it is just floating pigments in something that is really deep. Honestly I’ve had better results in the cheaper stuff. I work in pacific heights in San Francisco so it’s not about cutting corners or saving Money but aesthetic results. I would dump the Aura!


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## mdcraven7777 (25 d ago)

I don’t think deep colors touch up or any touch ups ever work really. Just me


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## tmcpaintingservice (4 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Good point, maybe switch to a superfab


 Try spraying it


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## tmcpaintingservice (4 mo ago)

mdcraven7777 said:


> I don’t think deep colors touch up or any touch ups ever work really. Just me


Reduce 25% for touch ups


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mdcraven7777 said:


> No extender and no micro fiber and no back rolling it will break the sheen. Mix it well and box it all. Heavier nap 1/2 minimum and apply generously, just not to the point of runs. The more you mess with deep colts in application the more issues you will have.
> 
> Michael Craven Painting


Sorry, I'm not buying it. First off we did use 20 mm sleeves for mileage. If you don't backroll you will have holidays on a 20ft wall. The only wall we were doing the flat on was the back stage wall where they screen projections. The rest of the walls are an eggshell. It feels odd to have been rolling walls for 35 years and having people teaching me how to roll. Never in my life have I encountered this issue before to be honest.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Sorry, I'm not buying it. First off we did use 20 mm sleeves for mileage. If you don't backroll you will have holidays on a 20ft wall. The only wall we were doing the flat on was the back stage wall where they screen projections. The rest of the walls are an eggshell. It feels odd to have been rolling walls for 35 years and having people teaching me how to roll. Never in my life have I encountered this issue before to be honest.


It was pretty embarrassing when I had that same issue with the Regal Select pictured in my earlier post being we had used Regal Classic earlier for 90% of the walls and it didn’t stripe, but had been unable to procure new old stock for the remaining 4 rooms due to being discontinued plus it was a $330K paint job for an OCD/ perfectionist yet favorite client. I think many of the Moore’s products have gone down hill over the years due to VOC changes & reformulations.

Edit:
It also happened with the Ben I switched to but to a considerably lesser degree except if back-rolling more than a couple of roller lengths into the wet film it would yield a completely different shade due to what I suspected was pigment floating as well.


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## jmfamp (Sep 17, 2018)

Wow...long thread, so I don't know if these have been mentioned, because I'm not going to read though it all...first, on using stock black...spot on. As it was explained to me, stock colors made at the factory use dry colorants, which suspend better. To get really dark 'custom' tints, so much liquid colorant has to be added to the base, they don't have very good coverage, as most of the hiding ingredients are removed from 'neutral' or dark bases so they can suspend tons of colorants. Second, some of the 'flashing' may dissipate as the paint fully dries and cures...in a week or so, that may not show as much.


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## Brush5555 (11 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Had to do a Theatre wall in flat black. It was 20ft high x 30 ft wide. They wanted it as flat as possible so we decided to do it in the BM 508. (Last people did it in a Satin)..We added extender and had 2 people rolling. Even after 2 coats it looked like garbage. In hind sight thinking we should have just gone with the Regal Ultimatte, but wanted it as flat as possible.. Could not get rid if the zebra stripes. Almost like the colourant was flashing.. We used 18mm micro fibre sleeves. Maybe too much nap?? For the love of gawd will be losing sleep tonight.🙄.thoughts?


 If you have a section somewhere on its own I would try a good primer sealer 1st.


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