# how many coats you do for white



## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

at the beginning of this job, i knew it was not easy, so i was already prepared for 3 coats for this color transitions from dark to white. but at the end of this job, i cut one coat of primer and two coats of paint plus i rolled one coat of primer and three coats of paint, it was total four coats to complete this job.

so, is there a trick and better way to paint white?

the color customer choose is OC-118


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Behr? Just a guess seeing the Husky tool bag.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

OC is usually a BM color I believe. Anyway, I would have skipped the primer, and used a flat version of the color for a first coat. Other than spraying, you just gotta put it on till it covers. 

There is a trick called tack rolling, you could have tried. You put the first coat on somewhat heavy, then lay it off again after it sets up for five to ten minutes. It helps the color even out a little. It makes the stipple look a little different though, fair warning.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

What material are you using? Though with today’s acrylics, that’s only marginally relevant I think. 

The more important question is how thick of a film are you applying with each application? Even crap paint will generally hide the underlying color in a couple applications if you can get enough of it on. 

My advice, ask for a wet film thickness gauge next time your in SW or PPG. They’re likely to have one lying around and usually they’re free. Knowing how much paint you’re actually putting on can make all the difference in the world. 

I would plan two finish coats for a color change like the one pictured. I wouldn’t see a reason to prime unless there was extensive repair work or some other special factor. Priming for color change never made sense to me as finish paint is almost always more opaque than primer. 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PACman said:


> Behr? Just a guess seeing the Husky tool bag.




Wouldn’t you think that purposefully engineered drag in Behr you are apt to point out would make it more likely to cover? 



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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

the primer is BM fresh start high hide from last project, and the finish paint is BM ultra spec low sheen, rolled both primer and paint with 15MM, the color does cover after two coats of finish paint but it gives me a picture frame, this is why i rolled the third finish coat


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

stl911 said:


> the primer is BM fresh start high hide from last project, and the finish paint is BM ultra spec low sheen, rolled both primer and paint with 15MM, the color does cover after two coats of finish paint but it gives me a picture frame, this is why i rolled the third finish coat


Honestly, that sounds about right all things considered. Hopefully your primer was tinted and not stock. Coulda gone with a higher quality of paint and MAYBE had better coverage, but that's quite a bit of transition on what I'm guessing are smooth walls. The cut always goes on heavier, thus the need for a final roll I'm guessing.
If it were me, I'd have gone with regal or maybe aura just to try to lay it on knowing those tend to be a pita... save the budget paint for the easy stuff, the ho pays for it anyway and if I even have a shred of better coverage (which is very likely) it's worth the extra few bucks.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

better quality paint might have avoided the picture frame. Whites dont do that often either. At the very least, use the Ben grade.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Honestly, that sounds about right all things considered. Hopefully your primer was tinted and not stock. Coulda gone with a higher quality of paint and MAYBE had better coverage, but that's quite a bit of transition on what I'm guessing are smooth walls. The cut always goes on heavier, thus the need for a final roll I'm guessing.
> If it were me, I'd have gone with regal or maybe aura just to try to lay it on knowing those tend to be a pita... save the budget paint for the easy stuff, the ho pays for it anyway and if I even have a shred of better coverage (which is very likely) it's worth the extra few bucks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


really?:vs_whistle:


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

chrisn said:


> really?:vs_whistle:


I was thinking the same thing...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> really?:vs_whistle:


Technically if you are doing it the recommended way than the cut will be heavier than the first roll. According to the paint manufacturers. When they see picture framing or hat banding the first thing they will ask is "did you do the cut a little heavier than the roll?" or something to that effect. Of course it could just be a way to instill doubt in the painter before they suggest something is wrong with the paint. An old negotiating tactic. Make your opponent doubt their side right from the beginning. Paint companies are quite masterful at it when they want to be. There is always something that could have gone wrong with the application and they can and will take advantage of that. That's their out when they need it.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*If it were me, I'd........*



stl911 said:


> the primer is BM fresh start high hide from last project, and the finish paint is BM ultra spec low sheen, rolled both primer and paint with 15MM, the color does cover after two coats of finish paint but it gives me a picture frame, this is why i rolled the third finish coat


Being as this is a kitchen, I would imagine that you would have made sure that the walls were cleaned first, then sanded appropriately. I would sand with a 5" orbital sander attached to a vacuum. This allows you to get close to the walls and see any imperfections that might need to be addressed that you might not see from just standing and looking at the walls.

I would then go along with Woodco and Jmays and skip the primer as paint does hide better than primer, at least the primers I am familiar with. You have already sanded what you are going to paint, so no more need to prime.

You say that you used a 15mm (1/2") nap roller. What brand and make? If I were to do this I would use a 9" x 5/16" nap Micro Plush from Wooster. This roller pretty much leaves a fine stipple that is almost the same whether you roll up or down.

http://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers/catalog/micro-plush/

For smaller areas I would use a 6 1/2" x 1/4" nap Contractor Series Woven Mini Roller from Sherwin Williams:

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/contractor-series-woven-mini-rollers

You may get more paint on with a thicker nap roller, but you will also get more stipple and less even coverage, at least IMO. If you were painting a big room where furniture would be coming between people and the walls for the most part, the appearance of a pronounced stipple might not be a big factor, but this is a kitchen where, at least from your photos, people are normally going to be within touching distance of many of the walls. Being this close to a wall allows one to closely see the actual texture of the paint job. I have to think that a smooth, fine stipple will look better than a heavier orange peel look. One advantage to using the above mentioned rollers is that, while being slower at getting paint onto the walls, they do cover better. I have done small kitchens and bathrooms with the 6 1/2" mini roller alone.

One last point. The mini rollers I speak of have plastic buttons on the end. This lets you roll right next to the ceiling without getting paint onto it. You can reproduce this on a 9, 14 or 18" roller by sticking plastic floor protectors for chair and table legs. They are designed to allow the chair or table slide over a hard floor without scratching it. Why not use it on the end of your roller to pervent any paint from hitting the ceiling? Obviously you will need a step stool or ladder to roll against the ceiling sideways. This may be a bit more than you might want to do, but it does get the stipple within 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the ceiling. This also works for wall to wall rolling, although in this case the paint on the adjascent wall needs to be dry before touching it with the plastic floor protector. I guess if you are careful enough, you don't need the knobs.

One more last point. I agree with some others here about using a better grade of paint, especially in the kitchen. If you could reduce your job by one coat, wouldn't the labor saved make up for the extra cost of paint? And you are giving a better quality finish to your customer to boot.

Just some thoughts.

futtyos


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Honestly, that sounds about right all things considered. Hopefully your primer was tinted and not stock. Coulda gone with a higher quality of paint and MAYBE had better coverage, but that's quite a bit of transition on what I'm guessing are smooth walls. The cut always goes on heavier, thus the need for a final roll I'm guessing.
> If it were me, I'd have gone with regal or maybe aura just to try to lay it on knowing those tend to be a pita... save the budget paint for the easy stuff, the ho pays for it anyway and if I even have a shred of better coverage (which is very likely) it's worth the extra few bucks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


at the store when buying paint, i asked the owner to tint primer to OC-118 but i was told it did not make big difference because i was painting white. i did not argue but now i think i should insist to make them tint for me. 

For BM product, i use ultraspec a lot for people on budget, regal select for upgrade and Aura for accent color. 

i am painting gray 90% of the time,and i never had any picture frame issue with those three BM product. next time, i think i need to convince customers to use regal instead. 

still, IMO, white is not easy color to repaint even painting it over builder's creamy white

however, HO always think it is a easy job because of painting white over white and they expect price to go down. 

I know some of guys in my area use primer instead paint when painting white but i refuse to do that


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Being as this is a kitchen, I would imagine that you would have made sure that the walls were cleaned first, then sanded appropriately. I would sand with a 5" orbital sander attached to a vacuum. This allows you to get close to the walls and see any imperfections that might need to be addressed that you might not see from just standing and looking at the walls.
> 
> I would then go along with Woodco and Jmays and skip the primer as paint does hide better than primer, at least the primers I am familiar with. You have already sanded what you are going to paint, so no more need to prime.
> 
> ...


thanks futtyos, I am in Canada, only few stores carries wooster rollers with limited selections. but i do use BM micro fiber rollers for low sheen and wooster superfab for flat.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

If you can convince people to go with Regal, go for it. I'd consider only going as far down the ladder as Ben for the more frugal customers. I've never considered white over white to be necessarily easy. Short while ago, I was using regal eggshell doing Snowfall white over an off white. Had to cut in three times to get it to look right.

If people expect a price reduction because you're doing white over white, that's just silly.

Only time I've seen guys use primer instead of paint for whites was when I was working for a 'frugal' GC doing new construction. Drywallers primed the ceilings and GC told me that was the finish coat and not to touch it. I couldn't imagine using primer on walls and calling it done. That'd look pretty horrible.

90% grey these days sounds about right. I'm getting kind of tired of grey. Although I do seem to like Silver Fox for some stupid reason.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

stl911 said:


> at the store when buying paint, i asked the owner to tint primer to OC-118 but i was told it did not make big difference because i was painting white. i did not argue but now i think i should insist to make them tint for me.
> 
> For BM product, i use ultraspec a lot for people on budget, regal select for upgrade and Aura for accent color.
> 
> ...


Ya just gotta use your experience to sell the ho on a product. Somebody's gotta pay for the additional work it takes and it shouldn't be you!
Personally, I never use stock white anything unless my finish coats are stock... a rare occasion. A little bit of tint is always helpful in the end. I usually tint the primer to 50% or more of the top coat depending on a few things...it doesn't matter to the sales guy but it sure does matter to me!
I've said it before, as have many others, tuition in this trade is expensive, but we do learn. Sorry ya had to take that class but we all have at some point so at least you're not alone.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you can convince people to go with Regal, go for it. I'd consider only going as far down the ladder as Ben for the more frugal customers. I've never considered white over white to be necessarily easy. Short while ago, I was using regal eggshell doing Snowfall white over an off white. Had to cut in three times to get it to look right.
> 
> If people expect a price reduction because you're doing white over white, that's just silly.
> 
> ...


I, too, am over the grey. And greige. Wondering when beige will make a huge comeback. It still gets used but not nearly as often as the other two these days.

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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*The Paint Store*



stl911 said:


> thanks futtyos, I am in Canada, only few stores carries wooster rollers with limited selections. but i do use BM micro fiber rollers for low sheen and wooster superfab for flat.


https://www.thepaintstore.com/Wooster_Micro_Plush_p/r235.htm


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you can convince people to go with Regal, go for it. I'd consider only going as far down the ladder as Ben for the more frugal customers. I've never considered white over white to be necessarily easy. Short while ago, I was using regal eggshell doing Snowfall white over an off white. Had to cut in three times to get it to look right.
> 
> If people expect a price reduction because you're doing white over white, that's just silly.
> 
> ...


haha, after painting gray for almost 3 years, i am looking at the wall and ask myself is this really gray or i am blind :smile:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Tint the primer!*



stl911 said:


> at the store when buying paint, i asked the owner to tint primer to OC-118 but i was told it did not make big difference because i was painting white. i did not argue but now i think i should insist to make them tint for me.
> 
> For BM product, i use ultraspec a lot for people on budget, regal select for upgrade and Aura for accent color.
> 
> ...


When I got back into painting in 2012 or so, I got a job painting a multi-colored condo all off white. I asked the clerk to tint the primer the color of the paint. He said it would not be necessary since I was topcoating with a light off white. Big mistake. The next time I asked for the primer to be tinted, another clerk told me the same thing. I told her that I wasn't asking her advice on whether to tint the primer, I was asking her to tint the primer. I then told her that there was a visible difference after priming with white white primer. After priming over a dark color, I could see white coming through my top coat of paint!

futtyos


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

futtyos said:


> https://www.thepaintstore.com/Wooster_Micro_Plush_p/r235.htm


I've never bought from there, but I know a lot of guys on here do as it's been mentioned many times. I've always wondered if we'd get hammered with massive duty fees ordering from Canada once the product hits the border.

That's something I imagine all Canadians have to consider when ordering stuff from down south of the 49th.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you can convince people to go with Regal, go for it. I'd consider only going as far down the ladder as Ben for the more frugal customers. I've never considered white over white to be necessarily easy. Short while ago, I was using regal eggshell doing Snowfall white over an off white. Had to cut in three times to get it to look right.
> 
> If people expect a price reduction because you're doing white over white, that's just silly.
> 
> ...


by the way, Snowfall white is the color I use this time 

I normally recommend regal to customers is because i tell them if paint smell bothers you, go with regal. it has less to zero smell after finish and you can move in on next day. 

for BEN, it still has the same smell as ultraspec to me


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wooster manufacturers the BM brushes and rollers. The roller covers are all rebranded woosters. 

Most of the sundries suppliers do not carry the full lineup of wooster or purdy items which is why you don't see certain things in your local store. I order direct from wooster to get 4.5", 6.5", 18" microplush for example because PSS does not carry them.

My advice would be to talk to your local guys and see if they can do a direct order from wooster.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I couldn't imagine using primer on walls and calling it done. That'd look pretty horrible.


In my first intro thread I talked about a HO who wanted to use the tinted 046 primer for a finish coat. I had my rep call her and she told him "it looks badass". She came back to my store last week, bought more paint and told me she ended up putting a finish coat and that her 'painter friend' made a complete mess of her cabinets.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> When I got back into painting in 2012 or so, I got a job painting a multi-colored condo all off white. I asked the clerk to tint the primer the color of the paint. He said it would not be necessary since I was topcoating with a light off white. Big mistake. The next time I asked for the primer to be tinted, another clerk told me the same thing. I told her that I wasn't asking her advice on whether to tint the primer, I was asking her to tint the primer. I then told her that there was a visible difference after priming with white white primer. After priming over a dark color, I could see white coming through my top coat of paint!
> 
> futtyos


Where? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've never bought from there, but I know a lot of guys on here do as it's been mentioned many times. I've always wondered if we'd get hammered with massive duty fees ordering from Canada once the product hits the border.
> 
> That's something I imagine all Canadians have to consider when ordering stuff from down south of the 49th.


If an equivalent product is available from a Canadian manufacturer, your tariff sky-rockets. I learned that trying to ship DTM acrylic to a cruise ship in Vancouver.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

No comment about white and coverage. Rare that two coats won't do it for me. But I do want to say that the thing that struck me when looking at the pic was the extensive masking job that was done. Don't think I have ever put plastic over woodwork under a peninsula. I just throw a drop over the whole thing and let it come down to the floor. But your job does look very professional.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

it was the day i went there to pick up the key at night and i run out of painter's plastic, the only thing available to me was 3M handmasker on that night


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Yeah, it looked like it was bagged off to spray.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Next time tint a quality flat to the finish, then top coat. The coverage will be amazing

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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> I, too, am over the grey. And greige. Wondering when beige will make a huge comeback. It still gets used but not nearly as often as the other two these days.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk




Personally, I’m still over beige. I was happy to see the end of the earth tone era. No more Monroe bisque with a Spanish Red accent. If those schemes do make a comeback, I have a feeling it’ll be many years from now. 

I like the grey trend, but it can’t last much longer. I’ve often wondered what will be the next big thing. 


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> Personally, I’m still over beige. I was happy to see the end of the earth tone era. No more Monroe bisque with a Spanish Red accent. If those schemes do make a comeback, I have a feeling it’ll be many years from now.
> 
> I like the grey trend, but it can’t last much longer. I’ve often wondered what will be the next big thing.
> 
> ...



Orange and purple combinations.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Drama alert!*



PACman said:


> Where? Inquiring minds want to know.


I can't Behr to tell you!

Futtyos


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Personally, I’m still over beige. I was happy to see the end of the earth tone era. No more Monroe bisque with a Spanish Red accent. If those schemes do make a comeback, I have a feeling it’ll be many years from now.
> 
> I like the grey trend, but it can’t last much longer. I’ve often wondered what will be the next big thing.
> 
> ...


Oh I'm over beige too, it just seems to keep going in cycles. Beige, gray, beige,gray, la la la.....speaking of...i think I need to repaint my house...interior. kilmn beige living room and hallway. Alabaster lids and trim, arresting auburn accents in the livingroom. I dunno....maybe next year.lol.

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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I hate to say it, but up here the trend trickling down from the city to our area is................................... White.

Everywhere.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I hate to say it, but up here the trend trickling down from the city to our area is................................... White.
> 
> Everywhere.


I knew it....bummer! SO BORING! Although, the job I'm on at present has a forest green media room, a bright blue bedroom an a fucia bathroom. New remodel. Pretty "busy"....but certainly not boring. Speaking of, I guess I have to match the bedroom blue in conversion varnish and hose out some cabinets, any thoughts anyone? I'd prefer a bm product but I'm clueless. Never done it before....

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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Next time tint a quality flat to the finish, then top coat. The coverage will be amazing
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk


thanks for the tip but i am wondering how this works from pricing point of view? my price for flat paint is $6 more than regular primer


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

stl911 said:


> thanks for the tip but i am wondering how this works from pricing point of view? my price for flat paint is $6 more than regular primer


$6 per gallon more is a no brainer if it solves your occasional problem.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

yea, it makes more sense if it saves on labor


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

for the coming project, the customer picks RED (color code 2001-30) for accent wall, it is about 10ftx8ft, i see the triangle primer sign for this RED on benjamin moore fan deck, so, what is the best way for this RED from your experience? gray primer with RED paint or RED flat paint and RED paint or multiple coat of Aura RED paint? by the way, i am painting it over builder's flat white


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

So, I have a theory, that I have not actually tested in field, but here it is: If you could look at the red color with colorblind eyes, that shade of gray should give you the best covereage. If you get a color strip of shades of straight gray, you could take a rag or finger or whatever, and lightly rub the red paint over several of the gray shades, and see which one it covers best over. Then, get that shade of gray in a cheap flat paint, and use it for your first coat. 

THEORETICALLY, the red should cover beautifully this way. I have NOT actually tested this in field though.

At the very least though, get a cheap flat version of the red for the first coat or two. flat paints cover a little better, and cheap flat paints are kind of porous, so they suck in the topcoat color, therefore you get better coverage.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

you just made me remember 3 years ago, we used gray owl to cover behr RED with two coats


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I'd use dark gray. p-5 And regal or aura.

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ok use gray then! Or grey! I wouldn't though. I'd use a pink primer. But what do i know. Only been selling the stuff since 1984. Gray/grey covers colors great, but will the red cover it? Some paint companies (BM for example) push the gray. Some push tinting the primer towards the top coat. BUT in MY experience, when using very bright reds and yellows that have very little "graying" to them already, they will actually hide better over a light shade of the same color tinted in a white or pastel base. AND the application technique and the applicator used will have less effect over the primer tinted to the finish coat than it will over a gray. Grey. (DAMMIT!) (I have the feeling that the whole gray primer thing comes from the need to have something to recommend when the paint company is selling through a box store or a store where the training and knowledge of the salespeople is somewhat suspect. I never heard gray recommended over tinted toward the finish coat in twenty + years between SW and PPG. Not until i worked for a BM dealer did i hear of it. Also there is the question of how dark of a tint to make the color if you tint towards the topcoat. It does take some skillz and experience to be able to pick the best color to tint too, as well as knowledge of the max amount of tint you can put in a base. So they came up with (BM) standardized gray primer shades to use with various hues of topcoat, instead of having to rely on such silly things as skillz and experience. Doesn't necessarily mean gray is the best for use, just easiest to sell.)


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> So, I have a theory, that I have not actually tested in field, but here it is: If you could look at the red color with colorblind eyes, that shade of gray should give you the best covereage. If you get a color strip of shades of straight gray, you could take a rag or finger or whatever, and lightly rub the red paint over several of the gray shades, and see which one it covers best over. Then, get that shade of gray in a cheap flat paint, and use it for your first coat.
> 
> THEORETICALLY, the red should cover beautifully this way. I have NOT actually tested this in field though.
> 
> At the very least though, get a cheap flat version of the red for the first coat or two. flat paints cover a little better, and cheap flat paints are kind of porous, so they suck in the topcoat color, therefore you get better coverage.


If the finish coat is a satin i would recommend a primer over a cheap flat to get a better hold-out though.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm gonna disagree. I say two coats of satin will look about the same over a primer or cheap flat, holdout wise. If you cant get that primer to the proper red, you'd probably have to put an extra coat on anyway.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> ok use gray then! Or grey! I wouldn't though. I'd use a pink primer. But what do i know. Only been selling the stuff since 1984. Gray/grey covers colors great, but will the red cover it? Some paint companies (BM for example) push the gray. Some push tinting the primer towards the top coat. BUT in MY experience, when using very bright reds and yellows that have very little "graying" to them already, they will actually hide better over a light shade of the same color tinted in a white or pastel base. AND the application technique and the applicator used will have less effect over the primer tinted to the finish coat than it will over a gray. Grey. (DAMMIT!) (I have the feeling that the whole gray primer thing comes from the need to have something to recommend when the paint company is selling through a box store or a store where the training and knowledge of the salespeople is somewhat suspect. I never heard gray recommended over tinted toward the finish coat in twenty + years between SW and PPG. Not until i worked for a BM dealer did i hear of it. Also there is the question of how dark of a tint to make the color if you tint towards the topcoat. It does take some skillz and experience to be able to pick the best color to tint too, as well as knowledge of the max amount of tint you can put in a base. So they came up with (BM) standardized gray primer shades to use with various hues of topcoat, instead of having to rely on such silly things as skillz and experience. Doesn't necessarily mean gray is the best for use, just easiest to sell.)


So what exactly is this (BM)standardized grey primer? Never heard of it. I'm sure you've heard of painters taking 4+ coats for some reds. If Grey (gray) works what's wrong with it? How is it any easier to sell than primer tinted red?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> So what exactly is this (BM)standardized grey primer? Never heard of it. I'm sure you've heard of painters taking 4+ coats for some reds. If Grey (gray) works what's wrong with it? How is it any easier to sell than primer tinted red?


The doofs in the box stores. it's easier to tell them to just sell a gray than to teach them how to pick a color for a base coat or how much to tint a primer. And BM used to have a chart that had several hues of grays and the tint formula on them. My old accutinter had the formulas on it and would actually tell you which gray to use. And test it if you want, gray does not work as well under a bright primary red or yellow as a pastel base tinted towards them. Try it, just don't back charge me for the paint or the labor you waste.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Lets get scientific, or as scientific as my non-color mixing self can get. I dont understand mixing colors, but I know how they work.

The "hue" is the actual color, in this case , red. Saturation is how much white is added to to the red, in this case none.. And 'value' is how much grayscale the color has.

The problem with bright reds, is the transparent base. It doesnt have any white or grayscale in it, as the white will ruin the saturation. All it is, is the hue. But, if you use that gray primer as the 'value' behind the red, the color becomes complete.

When a color doesnt cover, its because the color behind it is either too dark or too light. It has nothing to do with the 'hue' of the color. So, tinting a primer pink is not gonna help with coverage. If you have the same 'value' behind your color, whether the hue is red green or yellow, the topcoat is gonna cover. Gray is better, but it has to be the right value of gray. Thats what the gray primers stores sell are missing. Its darker, but if they would custom tint that gray to match the topcoat's value, it will cover amazingly well.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

If you’re using a gray primer under red for coverage, it’s really not covering, its creating an illusion of coverage. If it takes 3, 4 ,or 5 coats of red finish coat to cover white, it takes 3, 4, or 5 coats of red to truly cover gray to achieve the true color of the red that was picked. Myself, I’ll blitz 2-3 coats of the red color in flat, (flat always grabs onto itself for great coverage, rather than eggshell which slips on itself, than two coats of eggshell for final finish. Here eggshell is 99% of what’s used on walls. Yes a little more work but I don’t do it for free and the end result is the true red that was selected from the color chip.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

I dont know if you have BM fan deck, if you do i am not sure if you have the older version of the fan deck. the older version of fan deck has one for different sheen and one for different shade of gray primer, for this RED 2001-30, there is a triangle primer sign, so i know primer is required for sure but i am not sure which shade of gray primer is recommend, i have to check with store's computer

in the past, i call BM contractor support line and ask them to check if primer is required for certain color. but it seems they hire less experience guys to support contractors these days. I call contractor support line this morning, the guy told me this RED does not need primer, just do slightly sanding and paint.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

loaded brush said:


> If you’re using a gray primer under red for coverage, it’s really not covering, its creating an illusion of coverage. If it takes 3, 4 ,or 5 coats of red finish coat to cover white, it takes 3, 4, or 5 coats of red to truly cover gray to achieve the true color of the red that was picked. Myself, I’ll blitz 2-3 coats of the red color in flat, (flat always grabs onto itself for great coverage, rather than eggshell which slips on itself, than two coats of eggshell for final finish. Here eggshell is 99% of what’s used on walls. Yes a little more work but I don’t do it for free and the end result is the true red that was selected from the color chip.


Sorry, but's not true. Gray doesnt have a hue. Its blank as far as color goes. If the red has a 'value' of 44%, it would theoretically cover in one coat on a wall that was primed with a gray that was also exactly 44% all the topcoat would need to do at that point is add the red hue, and even a thin coat provides the proper hue.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Check this out: If you had this grayscale on a peice of paper, you could take a foam brush with your bright red, and do a thin coat all the way across. There will be a sweet spot that it will cover really good over. Scientifically, its because it has the same color "value" as your red. Mix that exact gray in a paint or even primer, and that will be the very best way to get coverage. 

If you have anything colored and transparent, (like thin plastic) you can try it on the computer screen.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stl911 said:


> I dont know if you have BM fan deck, if you do i am not sure if you have the older version of the fan deck. the older version of fan deck has one for different sheen and one for different shade of gray primer, for this RED 2001-30, there is a triangle primer sign, so i know primer is required for sure but i am not sure which shade of gray primer is recommend, i have to check with store's computer
> 
> in the past, i call BM contractor support line and ask them to check if primer is required for certain color. but it seems they hire less experience guys to support contractors these days. I call contractor support line this morning, the guy told me this RED does not need primer, just do slightly sanding and paint.


The people who answer the hotline are hit or miss unless you know who's direct number to call.
I have many fan decks, even MOM fan decks. Have not found one with a primer chart. The deep base primer recommendation for 2003-10:

046 Deep Base (or Aura color foundation)
Y2 1x 8.000
R2 4x 8.000


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

nevermind. Wish I could delete this.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I think the coat of flat red followed with two satin would work fine. Typically, I always plan for three coats when doing a red - regardless of sheen. Once did an old Devine brand of red on an accent wall that took five coats to look good. Ugh!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

The easiest answer is Aura. This week I did a darker red and and a very bright red. Both two coats of Aura eggshell over builder beige and it was done. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Lets get scientific, or as scientific as my non-color mixing self can get. I dont understand mixing colors, but I know how they work.
> 
> The "hue" is the actual color, in this case , red. Saturation is how much white is added to to the red, in this case none.. And 'value' is how much grayscale the color has.
> 
> ...


For the win!!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Lets get scientific, or as scientific as my non-color mixing self can get. I dont understand mixing colors, but I know how they work.
> 
> The "hue" is the actual color, in this case , red. Saturation is how much white is added to to the red, in this case none.. And 'value' is how much grayscale the color has.
> 
> ...


wrong. Hue is the comparative lightness/darkness of a color. According to the color theory courses i took at the expense of SW.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Check this out: If you had this grayscale on a peice of paper, you could take a foam brush with your bright red, and do a thin coat all the way across. There will be a sweet spot that it will cover really good over. Scientifically, its because it has the same color "value" as your red. Mix that exact gray in a paint or even primer, and that will be the very best way to get coverage.
> 
> If you have anything colored and transparent, (like thin plastic) you can try it on the computer screen.


no. It would have the same hue. I know this for a fact. 90% of the people calling something a "hue" are wrong. When you look at a spectrophotometer's numerical graphing of a color, there is a cross graph showing the Yellow/blue scale on the vertical, the red/green scale on the horizontal, and the lightness/darkness of the color on the side on a vertical scale labelled as "hue". What people are calling hue is an artistic term and is not correct as a color theory. Every high school and college art teacher teaches this incorrectly. Physics again. Physics always wins over art.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

In other words the "value" of a color has to be expressed as either yellow/blue and red/green. There is also brightness, which is also entirely different than hue. Hue is in effect the "grayscale" of a particular color "value". Or in layman's terms, the lightness or darkness. You going to believe me or the decorinas?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> In other words the "value" of a color has to be expressed as either yellow/blue and red/green. There is also brightness, which is also entirely different than hue. Hue is in effect the "grayscale" of a particular color "value". Or in layman's terms, the lightness or darkness. You going to believe me or the decorinas?


I think there is some disconnect here between computer RGB, HSL systems and what is Hue for pigments


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> no. It would have the same hue. I know this for a fact. 90% of the people calling something a "hue" are wrong. When you look at a spectrophotometer's numerical graphing of a color, there is a cross graph showing the *Yellow/blue scale* on the vertical, the red/green scale on the horizontal, and the lightness/darkness of the color on the side on a vertical scale labelled as "hue". What people are calling hue is an artistic term and is not correct as a color theory. Every high school and college art teacher teaches this incorrectly. Physics again. Physics always wins over art.


Can you post a pic of the graph? I am having a hard time picturing it when the spectrophometers we used in physics just produce values for absorbance/reflectance for given wavelength.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> no. It would have the same hue. I know this for a fact. 90% of the people calling something a "hue" are wrong. When you look at a spectrophotometer's numerical graphing of a color, there is a cross graph showing the Yellow/blue scale on the vertical, the red/green scale on the horizontal, and the lightness/darkness of the color on the side on a vertical scale labelled as "hue". What people are calling hue is an artistic term and is not correct as a color theory. Every high school and college art teacher teaches this incorrectly. Physics again. Physics always wins over art.


I went off of this system. If my terminology is wrong, or different so be it. IT doesnt change the science behind it. According to this article, and three others I looked at Hue is the color itself. Saturation is the actual 'brilliance.' Value is the lightness or darkness "grayscale."

Maybe all the stuff I just read has the wrong terminology. Doesnt matter., replace whatever word you use for 'hue' and 'value,' and it will ring the same. Im not arguing the terminology. 

What I called 'value' you called hue, whatever.

Provide me a link to the system and terminology you are familiar with so I can be on the same page. However, you should understand what Im trying to say, nonetheless. https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/16166/what-is-the-relationship-between-hue-saturation-and-value

This is what I looked up.

Whatever the names are, it doesnt change the fact that using the grayscale version of a bright red is gonna cover better than using a pink.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I gotta admit it is a nice product. I'm using matte in some really bold/dark colors and though it will take 3 it's so close!!!!! New smooth walls with a very light gray primer(didn't have a color selection when I primed and the lids are off white anyway) I'd bet money that if I had a dark gray behind any of these colors it would cover perfectly well with just 1 coat. And I'd consider leaving it. I've never even had that thought with another product except c2. Once.
Pricey, but worth it for the last few times I've used it. Hopefully it's consistent across bases and sheens....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I went off of this system. If my terminology is wrong, or different so be it. IT doesnt change the science behind it. According to this article, and three others I looked at Hue is the color itself. Saturation is the actual 'brilliance.' Value is the lightness or darkness "grayscale."
> 
> Maybe all the stuff I just read has the wrong terminology. Doesnt matter., replace whatever word you use for 'hue' and 'value,' and it will ring the same. Im not arguing the terminology.
> 
> ...


I'm with ya. I don't care what the terminology is, I care about the application. And you're spot on. Red doesn't cover over pink nearly as well as it covers gray.i don't care what the book says, I care about what the brush says.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm with Woodco and LPC on this one. My experience with the gray primer under reds made a believer out of me, regardless of what the science and theory is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

stl911 said:


> for the coming project, the customer picks RED (color code 2001-30) for accent wall, it is about 10ftx8ft, i see the triangle primer sign for this RED on benjamin moore fan deck, so, what is the best way for this RED from your experience? gray primer with RED paint or RED flat paint and RED paint or multiple coat of Aura RED paint? by the way, i am painting it over builder's flat white



Use Regal or Aura and bid it for 3 coats, but hope it only takes 2 coats.

I've never tried using a grey primer. If you have to apply three coats I'd rather just use the actual paint. Its possible that you'll end up at 4 coats if it takes 3 coats to cover the gray primer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PNW Painter said:


> Use Regal or Aura and bid it for 3 coats, but hope it only takes 2 coats.
> 
> I've never tried using a grey primer. If you have to apply three coats I'd rather just use the actual paint. Its possible that you'll end up at 4 coats if it takes 3 coats to cover the gray primer.
> 
> ...


The walls I just panted over had blue, yellow and unpainted brick. medium grey primer covered them all evenly enough that the first coat of Ben in red over that looked pretty good. Don't think that would have been the case if I had used red tinted primer.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PNW Painter said:


> Use Regal or Aura and bid it for 3 coats, but hope it only takes 2 coats.
> 
> I've never tried using a grey primer. If you have to apply three coats I'd rather just use the actual paint. Its possible that you'll end up at 4 coats if it takes 3 coats to cover the gray primer.
> 
> ...


The whole point of using grey primer is to only have to do two more coats, rather than 5 or 6.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> The whole point of using grey primer is to only have to do two more coats, rather than 5 or 6.


If it's a neutral based color and you use a gray primer, you may well be doing 5 or 6 coats to get an adequate looking finish.

A neutral base is essentially clear and to achieve a very deep color, a crazy amount of tint must be added.

Basically, a neutral base color has an extremely hard time covering itself, much less a different color (primer)! Ask me how I know?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

in the interest of not letting this become another "does the universe end?" thread, i will give the very basic reason why the terms "hue" and "value" are not generally used correctly. Basically, many years ago when people were first trying to assign different colors numerical values (first hint!), a very influential series of reports and then text books f*cked up and transposed the terms. And, because of that, they have been used incorrectly since.

What is a number used to designate something called?

A value.

so when you assign a number to something, that number becomes that somethings "value". So if you assign a number to a color difference, that number becomes a representation of that color, or the color's "value". Hue has nothing to do with it.

That comes in when people tried to graph or represent those color "values". It can't be done using just the color's value unless it is represented in three dimensions because you must use the three primary colors, red, yellow, and blue. At one time this was impossible to represent on paper or even on a computer model. So when the first numerical values were assigned to colors, the color was given a value, and the term hue was used to describe the comparative darkness of the color.

Eventually it was determined that is would be easier to describe this three dimensional color as a trigonometric function by adding green into the equation. This gives you red/green on the y axis and blue/yellow on the x axis. (i may be backwards on the axis thing. Don't have my books handy.) But this doesn't give a representation of the darkness of a color, so using the standard trigonometric representation a third graph was added. A simple vertical graph called "hue".

Now somewhere along the line these names were transposed and printed in scientific papers and the first text book regarding assigning numerical values to colors and the incorrect usage has stuck ever since.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I went off of this system. If my terminology is wrong, or different so be it. IT doesnt change the science behind it. According to this article, and three others I looked at Hue is the color itself. Saturation is the actual 'brilliance.' Value is the lightness or darkness "grayscale."
> 
> Maybe all the stuff I just read has the wrong terminology. Doesnt matter., replace whatever word you use for 'hue' and 'value,' and it will ring the same. Im not arguing the terminology.
> 
> ...


read my post. They are using the same incorrect terms that have been used for years. Because they are essentially artists, and are influenced by trends and not science and mathematics. Why change or correct something that makes sense and everyone else does. Trust me, i've been down this path many times in thirty + years, and although to anyone using the artistic terms i look like an idiot. But, to give a color a designation numerically you are giving it a "value" and not a "hue".


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Brushman4 said:


> If it's a neutral based color and you use a gray primer, you may well be doing 5 or 6 coats to get an adequate looking finish.
> 
> A neutral base is essentially clear and to achieve a very deep color, a crazy amount of tint must be added.
> 
> Basically, a neutral base color has an extremely hard time covering itself, much less a different color (primer)! Ask me how I know?


You must not have read anything I've said about this... I just explained it through color science, even though, as Pacman pointed out, my terminology may be incorrect.

ONCE AGAIN: if you take that bright red, and brush a light coat down this grayscale sample, there will be a sweet spot where the red will look like supposed to. Thats because every color has a grayscale value attached to it. Pacman calls it 'Hue.' If that red has a 'hue' value of 44% then you use a gray with a hue value of 44% behind the transparent red, and together, they make the proper red. Yes, the red is still transparent, but the gray behind it gives it its solidity.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

nope. seen the drawdowns. Bought the t-shirt. It is an optical illusion that a non-grayed color, such as a bright primary red or yellow covers better on gray. Kind of like how Pm200 seems to cover well in two coats, but the illusion is that the color looks uniform but it isn't a true representation of the color. To get the truest color, gray is not the best color to use as a primer or first coat. It is usually adequate, but it quite often results in more coats being required to get the truest color. NOT TO MENTION THE FACT THAT GRAYS ARE A LOT CHEAPER TO MAKE THAN ANY OTHER COLOR! You use the cheapest colorants to make grays and the most expensive colorants to make pinks and such. THAT is another reason why some paint companies push the grays so much, especially when you are talking about Gennex. The reds and yellows are multitudes more expensive to manufacture than black and umber. So even though the paint dealer may or may not be paying more for red/yellow over black, someone is paying for the difference somewhere. For example California used to charge a different price for every colorant, but this year they switched and are charging the same for each one. How, they are charging what is an averaged price for them all.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> You must not have read anything I've said about this... I just explained it through color science, even though, as Pacman pointed out, my terminology may be incorrect.
> 
> ONCE AGAIN: if you take that bright red, and brush a light coat down this grayscale sample, there will be a sweet spot where the red will look like supposed to. Thats because every color has a grayscale value attached to it. Pacman calls it 'Hue.' If that red has a 'hue' value of 44% then you use a gray with a hue value of 44% behind the transparent red, and together, they make the proper red. Yes, the red is still transparent, but the gray behind it gives it its solidity.


Quite true. But if you were to take that particular gray, whatever you want to call it (value,hue, GREY!) and add red to it, it would work even better! I GUARANTEE IT!

Again, when i say "pink" i am being quite generic in my terminology. Choosing a primer color that is the best combination of the topcoat color and gray for use with a particular color topcoat falls under the "skillz and experience" i described earlier. Obviously if you used a very pastel pink, you wouldn't be able to cover it any better than the lightest gray. The BEST primer color is a combination of both, and the choosing of the best primer color is dependent upon several things including colorant strength and amount of colorant allowed in a base. Again, this is were the "skillz and experience" comes in to play.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

As Pac-Man said which was my point in my first post, when you use gray primer to do less coats, your creating an illusion of coverage, sort of like cheating. Put it like this if you did a gray primer on one wall with two coats of red that you are saying it covered, and then do five coats of the actual red paint color over white on another wall to achieve coverage of the red color, than cut out a sample of each and had them both computer matched, you’re going to get two different formulas. The gray primed wall sample should create a formula that is darker than the original chosen color because the computer is going to read the gray through the two coats of transparent red. I get that to the eye they both walls will probably look the same, but the point being is, it’s not the true color representation of the red chosen color.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

loaded brush said:


> As Pac-Man said which was my point in my first post, when you use gray primer to do less coats, your creating an illusion of coverage, sort of like cheating. Put it like this if you did a gray primer on one wall with two coats of red that you are saying it covered, and then do five coats of the actual red paint color over white on another wall to achieve coverage of the red color, than cut out a sample of each and had them both computer matched, you’re going to get two different formulas. The gray primed wall sample should create a formula that is darker than the original chosen color because the computer is going to read the gray through the two coats of transparent red. I get that to the eye they both walls will probably look the same, but the point being is, it’s not the true color representation of the red chosen color.


exactly. When you put two coats of PM200 white on drywall, it will be a nice consistent color. But when you do touch up, you will get a brighter white on the touch-ups. That is the reason for most touch-up problems. The more coats you put on the closer to the true color you are getting. The more transparent the color (or the paint) the more coats you will need to get the true color representation. It may "hide" to a certain extent in that it is a consistent color, but it won't be a match to the color standard. To get a truer representation of a color standard with a transparent color, shading the primer to a "grayed" version of the color standard will get you to the truest representation of that color standard with fewer coats. 

Back to the op, if you want to get "white" to cover in fewer coats you need to offshade it or "gray" it. Of course this won't be the truest representation of a bright white, but it will in effect be "white".


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

To address the question about the "graph" used by color eyes. This is usually a proprietary graphic that the color eye manufacturers kind of want to keep to themselves, as well as there really being no need for someone to see it in normal color matching situations. Most color eye software does not include a means to show this theoretical graph as part of the color matching process. It exists, but it isn't needed most of the time so most color eyes ignore it as a display need.

If you are using the Matchrite software for example when you do a color match you will see a designation "DE:.00x" x being a number. That is a representation of the average of the graph measurements, i.e. the average of the y,x, and hue of the color. It is the easiest way to numerically represent how close the color formula SHOULD be. The graphs are of course how the trig waves are represented in their easiest visual form. Those waves you referring to are represented on that graph. That's what trigonometry does for us. Among other things of course.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> To address the question about the "graph" used by color eyes. This is usually a proprietary graphic that the color eye manufacturers kind of want to keep to themselves, as well as there really being no need for someone to see it in normal color matching situations. Most color eye software does not include a means to show this theoretical graph as part of the color matching process. It exists, but it isn't needed most of the time so most color eyes ignore it as a display need.
> 
> If you are using the Matchrite software for example when you do a color match you will see a designation "DE:.00x" x being a number. That is a representation of the average of the graph measurements, i.e. the average of the y,x, and hue of the color. It is the easiest way to numerically represent how close the color formula SHOULD be. The graphs are of course how the trig waves are represented in their easiest visual form. Those waves you referring to are represented on that graph. That's what trigonometry does for us. Among other things of course.


So its like a color wheel sort of? the graph maps a linear space to polar, parametric or something like this from your description:


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

loaded brush said:


> As Pac-Man said which was my point in my first post, when you use gray primer to do less coats, your creating an illusion of coverage, sort of like cheating. Put it like this if you did a gray primer on one wall with two coats of red that you are saying it covered, and then do five coats of the actual red paint color over white on another wall to achieve coverage of the red color, than cut out a sample of each and had them both computer matched, you’re going to get two different formulas. The gray primed wall sample should create a formula that is darker than the original chosen color because the computer is going to read the gray through the two coats of transparent red. I get that to the eye they both walls will probably look the same, but the point being is, it’s not the true color representation of the red chosen color.


I say it doesnt matter if its an illusion. Technically, since the base is translucent anyway, even four or five coats on the wall isnt a "true" coat. 

Im sure you've all painted walls from a cream color with blue tint, to a cream color with a red tint, and it covers in one coat. Well, thats an illusion too. you are still seeing a little bit of the underlying color but the "hue" or grayscale, is so close it doesnt matter. And it still touches up. The same concept works with dark colors too. The only difference is sometimes the color values or tints (whatever we're calling that term now) fight with each other. yellows under blues with a little translucency is greenish. Grays, however, dont have a color value. They only have that grayscale. If you see gray showing through the first coat, it is only because it is either lighter or darker, not because there is another color to fight with.

Anyway, touch up on those reds are a nightmare anyway. But, you spot prime the touch up with the gray, and it should be just about right anyway.

So, Pacman, how about a happy medium, of finding that perfect grayscale then adding some red in it as well? Would the gray then need to be just a little lighter to make up for the added 'dark' that the red tint would bring? 

Which brings us back to the point that its a hell of a lot easier to do this with a paint than a primer.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I say it doesnt matter if its an illusion. Technically, since the base is translucent anyway, even four or five coats on the wall isnt a "true" coat.
> 
> Im sure you've all painted walls from a cream color with blue tint, to a cream color with a red tint, and it covers in one coat. Well, thats an illusion too. you are still seeing a little bit of the underlying color but the "hue" or grayscale, is so close it doesnt matter. And it still touches up. The same concept works with dark colors too. The only difference is sometimes the color values or tints (whatever we're calling that term now) fight with each other. yellows under blues with a little translucency is greenish. Grays, however, dont have a color value. They only have that grayscale. If you see gray showing through the first coat, it is only because it is either lighter or darker, not because there is another color to fight with.
> 
> ...


yup, that works the best. In fact i have had painters mix some topcoat with the gray primer they bought. AND i have had plenty of painters complain because one paint store or another sold them gray primer that they couldn't get covered for 5hit! So here we are.........skillz man, skillz.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> You must not have read anything I've said about this... I just explained it through color science, even though, as Pacman pointed out, my terminology may be incorrect.
> 
> ONCE AGAIN: if you take that bright red, and brush a light coat down this grayscale sample, there will be a sweet spot where the red will look like supposed to. Thats because every color has a grayscale value attached to it. Pacman calls it 'Hue.' If that red has a 'hue' value of 44% then you use a gray with a hue value of 44% behind the transparent red, and together, they make the proper red. Yes, the red is still transparent, but the gray behind it gives it its solidity.


Go buy a quart, gallon or five of a super deep red or yellow mixed in a NEUTRAL base, not a deep tone base, you're grayscale value will go out with the trash.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I say it doesnt matter if its an illusion. Technically, since the base is translucent anyway, even four or five coats on the wall isnt a "true" coat.
> 
> Im sure you've all painted walls from a cream color with blue tint, to a cream color with a red tint, and it covers in one coat. Well, thats an illusion too. you are still seeing a little bit of the underlying color but the "hue" or grayscale, is so close it doesnt matter. And it still touches up. The same concept works with dark colors too. The only difference is sometimes the color values or tints (whatever we're calling that term now) fight with each other. yellows under blues with a little translucency is greenish. Grays, however, dont have a color value. They only have that grayscale. If you see gray showing through the first coat, it is only because it is either lighter or darker, not because there is another color to fight with.
> 
> ...


If you want illusion go get yourself some smoke and mirrors!


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> Use Regal or Aura and bid it for 3 coats, but hope it only takes 2 coats.
> 
> I've never tried using a grey primer. If you have to apply three coats I'd rather just use the actual paint. Its possible that you'll end up at 4 coats if it takes 3 coats to cover the gray primer.
> 
> ...


this is what i did in my quote, 3 coats with Aura, i prefer the gray primer for the reason that the fan deck clearly indicates primer required, second, i did a very small accent wall with BM color called bright yellow 2022-30. because the wall is too small, i applied Aura without primer and i ended up with 4 or 5 coats to achieve that yellow color correctly. i hope the gray prime can help this time, one coat of primer and two coats of finish


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

3-4 coats of white dove over beige, 1400sq/ft condo and 5 days to paint solo. Yay me! On day 3 today.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

TrueColors said:


> 3-4 coats of white dove over beige, 1400sq/ft condo and 5 days to paint solo. Yay me! On day 3 today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk


Are you getting paid by the hour or the job? Think about this one business owners. If you are getting paid hourly, why would you care if it takes 3-4 coats to get a true color? If you are getting paid by the job.........well you are getting SCREWED! And why would your hourly employees actually want to use a paint that would do the job in two coats? THEY WOULDN'T! It doesn't make THEM any money!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> And why would your hourly employees actually want to use a paint that would do the job in two coats?


when I was an employee, my motivation was to not get screamed at by my prick boss for not knowing how to do it in two coats.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

TrueColors said:


> 3-4 coats of white dove over beige, 1400sq/ft condo and 5 days to paint solo. Yay me! On day 3 today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk


you mean BM OC-17? with my experience, this color should be good to cover in two coats even with ultraspec


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

stl911 said:


> you mean BM OC-17? with my experience, this color should be good to cover in two coats even with ultraspec


Yes OC-17, please make a video I would like to see this.


PACman said:


> Are you getting paid by the hour or the job? Think about this one business owners. If you are getting paid hourly, why would you care if it takes 3-4 coats to get a true color? If you are getting paid by the job.........well you are getting SCREWED! And why would your hourly employees actually want to use a paint that would do the job in two coats? THEY WOULDN'T! It doesn't make THEM any money!


By the job. But in a way hourly as the contract States 2 coats of paint.... Anything above that is time + material. Just finished it the last Thursday but it took 3 to 4 coats using regal and pro dooz 13mm roller.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Has anyone mentioned one coat when spraying? Sorry, but I don't have the mental energy to read through pages of this topic.


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