# Painting a garage door....



## endingman (Jul 3, 2008)

I have been hired to paint two identical garage doors that can accommodate one car each. There is some rusting and flaking, which I can remedy. I am using Rust-O-Leum to paint the doors. What would be a decent rate for the entire service?


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

i charge $15 a door


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> i charge $15 a door


That sounds high. With spray cans they take like 2 minutes per door. :blink:


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

endingman said:


> I have been hired to paint two identical garage doors that can accommodate one car each. There is some rusting and flaking, which I can remedy. I am using Rust-O-Leum to paint the doors. What would be a decent rate for the entire service?


 
they hired you without a price?? when you say rate are you talking production rate or price??


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

I would have figure out how to figure a price for that service before I offered it.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That sounds high. With spray cans they take like 2 minutes per door. :blink:


 
I'm considered high priced in my area, i use quality spray paint like rust o leum


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

If I can't figure out a price for something. I stick to the $9.99 rule, that way I know I am covered.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

So at 2 they would be looking at $19.98 plus a 7.75% tax:jester:


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> So at 2 they would be looking at $19.98 plus a 7.75% tax:jester:


You don't do discount for more than one? I could do three double size doors for that and pre-treat the rust with some acrylic primer thrown in...


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> i charge $15 a door


Good to see you increased your prices brother. I think that little chat we had helped. I think I get credit for this one. You took my advise, I want a pat on the back. That was trademark material.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

endingman said:


> I have been hired to paint two identical garage doors that can accommodate one car each. There is some rusting and flaking, which I can remedy. I am using Rust-O-Leum to paint the doors. What would be a decent rate for the entire service?


The following formula applies to any kind of painting job—interior or exterior, large or small, commercial or residential: 

Total price = (((Overhead per man hour) + (Average wage + labor burden)) X Man hours) + (Materials + Material markup) + (Other expenses + markup) + Profit 

I agree with the others-- why didn't you give a price before you took the job? What will you do if they don't like your price?

Brian Phillips


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

What's wrong with all you guys? The poor guy asked a legitimate question. Rather than a straight answer, you guys make fun of him. This is the problem with this site. A bunch of smart a$$ "painters" that can't come up with a number so they belittle the question asker.

Here's a real answer:

$200 per door. If the door has windows, $20 per window. I wouldn't use rust-o-leum. Prime the door if the rust is really bad and go get a gallon of Pittsburgh Paints Timeless Exterior Satin. Two coats will be beautiful and wash easily.

I understand that you guys can't estimate a lot of jobs on a description alone; however, a garage door? Are you kidding? So what if this is a DIY'er or newbie to the business? Don't you remember when you first started out and were lost when it came to certain estimates? Don't you remember when you weren't getting calls back and started wondering to yourself why? Was your price to high? Maybe it was so low the homeowner didn't trust you knew what you were talking about. All of us have been there and you guys can't help out an up and comer? I thought thats what this site was for.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> What's wrong with all you guys? The poor guy asked a legitimate question. Rather than a straight answer, you guys make fun of him. This is the problem with this site. A bunch of smart a$$ "painters" that can't come up with a number so they belittle the question asker.
> 
> Here's a real answer:
> 
> ...


 
No your the problem, you are acting as if there is some set rate for a ****ing door. My overhead and your overhead are different and our prices will reflect that. So for some one to come and ask us how much to charge is not possible because we don't know the overhead. If he asked what the best way to paint the door then we would have answered to the best of our ability because that is relatively constant but pricing never is.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

That's brilliant home guards. I never thought of it that way. So if your overhead is $1000 monthly and mine is $200, and we estimate the same job, could you possibly explain to the ho why your price for the same door is $400 while mine is $200. Same experience, same products, would you tell the client that your overhead is higher so he has to pay more? If so, would you get the job? 

I didn't say there's an exact science. There's not. But this guy didn't ask for a precise number to tell his customer - he asked what might be a reasonable price. Maybe if I said $200 p/d and you said $250 p/d and the next guy said $175 and the next guy said $215, he could have at least had an idea what everyone else was charging so he would have known a "reasonable rate." I have been estimating jobs for years both for myself and for other companies and there are still times when I have to sit back and think to myself, does this seem right? This is especially true on small jobs. I've had customers ask me to paint a closet. 3'X6'. I say $200 and wonder what the client thinks because the bedroom that the closet is in only cost $425. It's no crime to ask the question. And your overhead should have nothing to do with your quote. If the going rate is $65 an hour in your area, you won't get away with $95 just because you are spending too much on marketing and salaries. Your overhead, instead, should be dictated by your hourly rate. Right or wrong?


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Homeguards, let's be honest, you are a 24 year old know-it-all that doesn't have enough business to keep busy so you sit on painttalk all day to discourage newbies.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> What's wrong with all you guys? The poor guy asked a legitimate question. Rather than a straight answer, you guys make fun of him. This is the problem with this site. A bunch of smart a$$ "painters" that can't come up with a number so they belittle the question asker.


I gave him a real answer. The price of any job has variables, and he did not provide the variables. To give a price without knowing those variables is irresponsible in my opinion. I provided the formula for him to plug in his variables. 

Give a man a fish, or teach him to fish?

Brian Phillips


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Your overhead, instead, should be dictated by your hourly rate. Right or wrong?


Wrong. How do you come up with an hourly rate while ignoring your overhead? Using your hourly rate to determine overhead is putting the cart before the horse, and that's a very certain way to never get to the market.

Brian Phillips


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Im more worried about the HO this guy is going to be working for. I dont think its fair to come across as a professional and try to sell a service if you have no idea of what your doing. It really doesnt get any more basic then a garage door or two, I thaught the post was a joke, sorry if that offends someone.

I would suggest you go work for some one and learn the trade.

Pinnicle I agree with you in a way, but Im get sick of every guy that gets laid off from the plant ala of the sudden is a paint contractor.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

No it's not Brian. You need to go to business school to figure this one out. If you are making $5000 per month and spending $6000. You have to make $1000 more to compensate. Well, if you start charging more, you will begin to lose money because your client base is going to go elsewhere. Maybe you need to hire someone so that they can start making you more money but bumping up your prices (too high at least) is going to lose you business. Therefore, your overhead can only go as high as you are able to charge in your area. How can that be wrong?


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

dave mac, i agree with you as well. but, the more hack jobs out there, the easier it is for us to gain a loyal client base


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Homeguards, let's be honest, you are a 24 year old know-it-all that doesn't have enough business to keep busy so you sit on painttalk all day to discourage newbies.


 
Yeah, I'm just a 24 year old running a 1.5 million dollar business at last projection(going into my 3rd year). And because of how my business is set up, I have free time often during the day. But obviously you know too much about me.




> That's brilliant home guards. I never thought of it that way. So if your overhead is $1000 monthly and mine is $200, and we estimate the same job, could you possibly explain to the ho why your price for the same door is $400 while mine is $200. Same experience, same products, would you tell the client that your overhead is higher so he has to pay more? If so, would you get the job?
> 
> I didn't say there's an exact science. There's not. But this guy didn't ask for a precise number to tell his customer - he asked what might be a reasonable price. Maybe if I said $200 p/d and you said $250 p/d and the next guy said $175 and the next guy said $215, he could have at least had an idea what everyone else was charging so he would have known a "reasonable rate." I have been estimating jobs for years both for myself and for other companies and there are still times when I have to sit back and think to myself, does this seem right? This is especially true on small jobs. I've had customers ask me to paint a closet. 3'X6'. I say $200 and wonder what the client thinks because the bedroom that the closet is in only cost $425. It's no crime to ask the question. And your overhead should have nothing to do with your quote. If the going rate is $65 an hour in your area, you won't get away with $95 just because you are spending too much on marketing and salaries. Your overhead, instead, should be dictated by your hourly rate. Right or wrong?


 
Overhead is everything in your price. And it does dictate my price because I am not concerned with what the "going rate" is. 

Also Looking at the first sentence, All variables being exactly even yes $200 does beat $400, however when I'm selling a job it's hardly even. Customers do pay for the privalage to work with some contractors.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> And because of how my business is set up, I have free time often during the day. But obviously you know too much about me.
> 
> 
> 
> > It's none of his business how much time you spend here.:no:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> No it's not Brian. You need to go to business school to figure this one out. If you are making $5000 per month and spending $6000. You have to make $1000 more to compensate. Well, if you start charging more, you will begin to lose money because your client base is going to go elsewhere. Maybe you need to hire someone so that they can start making you more money but bumping up your prices (too high at least) is going to lose you business. Therefore, your overhead can only go as high as you are able to charge in your area. How can that be wrong?


 
Wow time to get your head out of the text book. You do realize there is a difference in running a business on paper and in the real world. The logic is price goes up, demand goes down. but that is simplified and based on equal products being availible. so If you were selling a wiget and i was selling a wiget then lower price wins. 

However a service is made of more than paint applied to wood. When you are offering a service the variables change dramatically from company to company. Service level, painter neatness, painter appearence, product, company image, referrals, attentiveness, ect all affect the end result. 
Therefore I'm not selling the same product to a customer, and may or may not have a distinct advantage, creating the ability to raise prices and increase sales at the same time.


Your text book cannot account for all the variables that differenciate two service companies.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

timhag said:


> HomeGuardPaints said:
> 
> 
> > And because of how my business is set up, I have free time often during the day. But obviously you know too much about me.
> ...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints;35684
I don't know what his issue is said:


> Homey
> 
> This may be the funniest thing you have ever said. :laughing::lol:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I never said a client wouldn't pay a higher price for better service. Thats a given. I am saying if you run a company known as one of the best in the industry - and I run the same - i win on price. Also, if you run a company that's known as the best in the industry and the customer gets 5 quotes all around $200 and then you come over and quote $500. Your reputation will quickly shift from best of the best to overpriced and unreasonable. The most ridiculous comment I have heard on this site yet is that you pay no attention to the going rates in your area. 

So you mean to tell me that if you are charging $40 an hour and you came to find that your competition is staying just as busy at $70 an hour, you wouldn't change your pricing structure? Come on. Get serious. 

I couldn't care less about your projected income. 60k, 90k, 500k, or 1.5 doesn't change the fact that you have forgotten what it was like coming up in this industry and needing a helping hand once in a while.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> No it's not Brian. You need to go to business school to figure this one out. If you are making $5000 per month and spending $6000. You have to make $1000 more to compensate. Well, if you start charging more, you will begin to lose money because your client base is going to go elsewhere. Maybe you need to hire someone so that they can start making you more money but bumping up your prices (too high at least) is going to lose you business. Therefore, your overhead can only go as high as you are able to charge in your area. How can that be wrong?


I'm not interested in petty arguments or exchanging insults. If you want to talk actual facts, I'll stay with you.

Your premise is that our price determines our overhead. So, if we charge $15 an hour we probably can't afford any overhead. Then how do we pay for: advertising, insurance, office supplies, gas, vehicle mainenance, equipment, equipment maintenance, taxes, etc? These are all overhead items that every business has, though to different degrees.

If we charge $15 an hour we can't afford to be in business, because we can't afford the overhead that is a part of being in business.

On the other side, if we charge $50 an hour we can afford overhead. We can afford advertising, insurance, office supplies, gas, vehicle mainenance, equipment, equipment maintenance, taxes, etc. In other words, we can afford to stay in business.

In my area, there are a lot of people who insist that a painter can only charge $25 an hour. They are simply wrong, and I prove it daily. 

They think they have no overhead, which is essentially what you are saying. You are saying that our overhead can only increase as our price increases, and our price is determined by factors outside of our control.

I am saying that our overhead determines our price, and we have control over that. Our ability to sell at the necessary price point is a different issue. But if we aren't getting the right price-- i.e., a price that makes us a decent wage-- then why do this? 

Brian Phillips


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I never said a client wouldn't pay a higher price for better service. Thats a given. I am saying if you run a company known as one of the best in the industry - and I run the same - i win on price. Also, if you run a company that's known as the best in the industry and the customer gets 5 quotes all around $200 and then you come over and quote $500. Your reputation will quickly shift from best of the best to overpriced and unreasonable. The most ridiculous comment I have heard on this site yet is that you pay no attention to the going rates in your area.
> 
> So you mean to tell me that if you are charging $40 an hour and you came to find that your competition is staying just as busy at $70 an hour, you wouldn't change your pricing structure? Come on. Get serious.
> 
> I couldn't care less about your projected income. 60k, 90k, 500k, or 1.5 doesn't change the fact that you have forgotten what it was like coming up in this industry and needing a helping hand once in a while.


Hey Gene

Why do people buy Mercedes and Porsches and Land Rovers? It aint about price big kid.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Homegaurd said "However a service is made of more than paint applied to wood. When you are offering a service the variables change dramatically from company to company. Service level, painter neatness, painter appearence, product, company image, referrals, attentiveness, ect all affect the end result. 
Therefore I'm not selling the same product to a customer, and may or may not have a distinct advantage, creating the ability to raise prices and increase sales at the same time.
Your text book cannot account for all the variables that differenciate two service companies."
I agree

This is a point that is often overlooked. We focus on the numbers, rightly so, but the level of service offered has its own value that differentiates each of us.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

RC Painting said:


> This is a point that is often overlooked. We focus on the numbers, rightly so, but the level of service offered has its own value that differentiates each of us.


I agree. That is a value that we can't necessarily compute except by testing the market. (We need to know what our minimum price is regarding the additional value.) But the more value we offer, the higher the overhead (as a general rule). The additional overhead and value is reflected in the price, for example, having insurance.

Brian Phillips


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Brian said:


> I agree. That is a value that we can't necessarily compute except by testing the market. (We need to know what our minimum price is regarding the additional value.) But the more value we offer, the higher the overhead (as a general rule). The additional overhead and value is reflected in the price.
> 
> Brian Phillips


Oh, so you mean we can sell our service based on something other than price? :yes: This is good, I love it when guys like Pin run around thinking they will win in the long run on price. There are so many guys circling the drain and they dont even know it.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Oh, so you mean we can sell our service based on something other than price? :yes:


I'm tempted to be really sarcastic and say that it is an idea that I've been experimenting with, but I won't.

Pin's argument is: Price determines overhead. Price is determined by the customer (i.e., low price wins). Therefore, overhead is determined by the customer and our overhead will be driven as absolutely low as customers can manage.

What is interesting is that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe this, you try to operate with no overhead-- no insurance, advertising, etc. You wind up offering no value other than painting. And since we all know that anyone can paint, that doesn't put you much above the DIYer. Except that maybe you have a drop cloth and ladder. So he'll be willing to pay you $15 an hour for the priviledge of breaking out the equipment to paint his house.

Brian Phillips


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> You don't do discount for more than one? I could do three double size doors for that and pre-treat the rust with some acrylic primer thrown in...


Ya that my 3 for 2 deal


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You guys want to keep arguing me on this fine - go to What is wrong with all you guys post in general discussions. You guys have selective hearing (or reading). I never said you can't charge a higher price for quality work - BUT - if everyone is charging $65 an hour, you aren't going to last long charging $200 an hour and telling your customer, I pay more for advertising. And I shouldn't have said that overhead doesn't go into price at all. Materials, Insurance, the basics like that obviously have to be absorbed by your price. Marketing, however, is the largest expense in most of our companies. Mailers, newspaper ads, internet marketing, etc, can not become so expensive that you have to charge your clients a premium because of them. If there's a premium in your price, isn't it for quality and not because you over exerted yourself in your ad campaign?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Your starting scare me


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> You guys want to keep arguing me on this fine - go to What is wrong with all you guys post in general discussions. You guys have selective hearing (or reading). I never said you can't charge a higher price for quality work - BUT - if everyone is charging $65 an hour, you aren't going to last long charging $200 an hour and telling your customer, I pay more for advertising. And I shouldn't have said that overhead doesn't go into price at all. Materials, Insurance, the basics like that obviously have to be absorbed by your price. Marketing, however, is the largest expense in most of our companies. Mailers, newspaper ads, internet marketing, etc, can not become so expensive that you have to charge your clients a premium because of them. If there's a premium in your price, isn't it for quality and not because you over exerted yourself in your ad campaign?


We are making some progress. I disagree that marketing is the largest expense in most of our companies. It certainly isn't in mine.

My salary and the company profit are the largest overhead items. Then comes insurance. Marketing is way down the list.

I agree that marketing can't completely and totally overcome bad work. It can do so to an extent, but I don't think anyone here is advocating that. 

My issue with you is the role of overhead in our price. Irv Chasen has long taught that overhead is typically 55% of a small contractor's selling price. My experience confirms this. Overhead (within reason) drives price, not vice versa.

BTW, welcome to Paint Talk.

Brian Phillips


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Homey
> 
> This may be the funniest thing you have ever said. :laughing::lol:


I agree. thats a classic.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I get your point, but I think you get mine to. You do agree that you have to keep in line (within reason) at the current "going rate" do you not? If going rate is 50, you can get away with charging $75 because you are such a better painter than the rest of the schmucks in the area, but you probably won't be getting $150p/h. My point is that you do have to keep tabs on market pricing. If you are charging 40 and going rate is 50, you can bump it up and make some more money. If you are charging 70 and not getting any call backs, you may want to bump it down a bit to stay competitive. 

Not to argue semantics, but company profit is not considered an overhead expense.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Brian said:


> I gave him a real answer. The price of any job has variables, and he did not provide the variables. To give a price without knowing those variables is irresponsible in my opinion. I provided the formula for him to plug in his variables.
> 
> Give a man a fish, or teach him to fish?
> 
> Brian Phillips


I agree Brian's answer was a legit response... and applys to all "what the rate questions... "


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

like Brian said, none of the variables were given. How extensive the rust was, what the disired look is, is there a 3 coat color change, stuff like that.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

All businesses must abide buy the law of free enterprise. Meaning you can only recieve what someone is willing to pay.( thats a given) also supply and demand does affect overall price. however you have to realize that you and the next guy aren't selling the same thing. although to some it looks like they are both selling a paint job, really they are provide that basic service and additional value. Some customers only want the paint job, they will base there decision on price, others want the extra and they will base the decision on the company first and price next. 

There are only so many hours that X company is offering to paint each year(supply) and there are Y number of clients<demand>(whether they know it or not) that want to work with X company. So the rate that X charges is determined by the Y number of clients. Too many clients, price goes up to weed a few out, to few customers price comes down to increase Y number of clients. If the price goes to low then X company owner decides to either: 
A. Close up shop, not making the right amount of return or 
B. Cut costs to be able to lower rate.

Owner of X business never worries what others are charging because it is irrelavent to him. He is only concerned with filling his book and making his money. If he can't then he moves on. (funny thing is if he does, then the balance of supply and demand shifts, raising prices and attracts him or someone like him back to the business) For the vast majority,this is a model that will work and make the owner successful. 


"going rate" implies that there is some secret meeting that all painters have agreeing on a price.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> "going rate" implies that there is some secret meeting that all painters have agreeing on a price.


umm, yah there is. You and Scott and NEPS and Tim Hag missed it the last two years. Sev was there this year, as well as pinnacle, Gabe was there asking about the rate for just regular wood fences, and ******** released his Kiddy Containment Pool 4000. We all got demo models and are going to get back to him on how we like it in 4 months.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

:laughing::lol::laughing::lol:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Kiddy Containment Pool 4000


:thumbup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Kiddy Containment Pool 4000.


I second that one, that was great...


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## endingman (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm painting the doors in September, and I'm not charging hourly rate. (Should I?) I need a good quote to charge for the entire job. Rusting is minimal, flaking is omnipresent. It will take me one day to scrape, one day to prime, and another day to paint. I'm using rollers and brushes to paint with. *The woman charging me is insistent on using Rust-O-Leum Flat White, and using brushes.
*

For the record, I'm going to college, and I want to be a professional painter someday. I can't find a contractor to be an apprentice of.


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2007)

endingman said:


> For the record, I'm going to college, and I want to be a professional painter someday. I can't find a contractor to be an apprentice of.


What college? What state do you live in?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

*Attention Pinnacle*



Brian said:


> The following formula applies to any kind of painting job—interior or exterior, large or small, commercial or residential:
> 
> Total price = (((Overhead per man hour) + (Average wage + labor burden)) X Man hours) + (Materials + Material markup) + (Other expenses + markup) + Profit
> 
> ...


Pin

Print this out and memorize it. Now you wont have to keep asking for someone to please answer your question. This is good info, go out in the field and find your own answers. Keep track of costs on every job, and establish your own database. That way you wont need losers like us.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok homeguards, you still haven't answered - if the guy down the street keeps as busy as you charging 70 per hour and the level of work is equal to yours at 40 per hour, you're telling me you wouldn't bump your price to 70 knowing you could make more money?

There is a going rate. Ask your paint store guy. He'll tell you low end painters are at around 30 an hour, your average joe is charging about 55 per hour, and your high end painters are anywhere from 60 to eighty an hour. It;s not an exact science - I never said it was. But even you admitted if you were charging $150 an hour and your competition was at $50 you would start to lose work. Let's take Toyota for example. The build a quality truck (Tundra). However, it's priced about 5k higher than an f-150. They sell their quality so people still bought the Tundra but they soon realized that F150 was more popular because it was still a good quality product at a lower price. To readjust to the market conditions, Toyota releases a $3000 rebate. And now Tundra outsells the competition. Toyota's price is now more comprable, an even though it's still a little higher, the quality is worth $2000.

That's the story of the largest auto manufacturer in the world. I'll be happy to follow their business model. For some reason though, you are still arguing that that's not how it works. I can guarantee one thing, Toyota never set it's vehicles prices based on it's marketing expense.

My father used to work for Toyota and their only concern was building the highest quality vehicle available at a price that was competitive in the market. 

As far as the BMW or Mercedes customer - you may think that pricing plays no role but you aren't right. If an S 550 cost $120,000 and a BMW 750il cost $100000, which vehicle do you think will sell more? Which one does? BMW is the answer.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

If a guy can paint two rooms for $200.00 then $15.00 for a garage door sounds expensive on that basis - The guy who charges $200.00 for two rooms isn't busy so how do you figure that pricing has a role?

If you're in business then you are a salesman - You need to sell yourself and the product. You should have an idea of what is involved in the job and roughly how long it's going to take - It's up to you to convince the client that they are making the right choice when they employ you, even if it does cost them a few $ more. 

Thank heaven for the fly-by-night contractors. They keep me in business because my customers know that I will do the job properly and if something does go wrong then I will put it right.

You'll always get people who'll shop at the 99c store but they know they aint gonna get the same product/quality as they would from a regular high street place.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Tooled up, I agree with your comment. I am saying that equal painters (same experience and quality) in the same market are priced similarly. One isn't @ 50p/h and the other at 100. If they were, the guy at 100 would go out of business


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

where I am at I make 50% of my income from fix-up jobs from those hack job contractors that screwed things up to begin with.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Tooled up, I agree with your comment. I am saying that equal painters (same experience and quality) in the same market are priced similarly. One isn't @ 50p/h and the other at 100. If they were, the guy at 100 would go out of business


It's called competition. It's what keeps the economy going. When i know I'm competing against another local guy for a job (which happens frequently), it means I got to keep my pencil sharp. If I lose one job then I know I've got to drop the price on the next. I know we're not far away from each other on price - I've been told that there's only been about 50 or so difference on jobs that we've competed against. If I don't really want the job then I price high so if I do get it then it's going to be worth while. If not then I'm not bothered. 

You'd be suprised how many people make a good living out of high prices. They maybe don't have a huge regular client base, or they might just specialize in (very) high class work. Which takes us back to the 'car' thing. If somebody can afford a top of the range bmw then they might just treat themselves... 

I'll do high specification work. I'll adjust my price accordingly to compensate for the extra time involved but I wouldn't expect to make any more money on a regular job taking the same amount of time. That's just because I wouldn't raise my rate just because of the type of work it is. Everyone has their own way of doing business. If you're making a living out of it then your way is right - If the next guy does it different to you and he still makes a living out of it then his way is right too.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

"if i loose one job, then i know i've got to drop my price on the next"

i hope people dont come to this forum for advice on salesmanship.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> "if i loose one job, then i know i've got to drop my price on the next"
> 
> i hope people dont come to this forum for advice on salesmanship.


You win some and you lose some. If I want the next job and I'm competing against the same guy as the last time then know I've got to be more competetive on the next to get it. There's always a limit to what you can come down to - That's what competition is all about. If I give them my lowest possible and still don't get it then I know whoever does get it is working for less than I would work for. 

Basic business sense really...


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

I can't answer the question because I don't believe there is a going rate, and furthermore I don't care what other contractors in my area are doing. I plan on leading my region in home improvement projects so what good would it do me to follow the pack. If my number works for me and makes me profitable, and i'm booked then I am happy and won't change anything. Of couse I adjust my pricing if I become over booked, but again that would be because demand has exceeded supply, not because I heard that high end cantractors are charging $75 an hour.


I base my bids on: Cost of labor + Cost of material + Profit= contract price. So my equation doesn't include other contractors charge x amount.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Tooled up, I agree with your comment. I am saying that equal painters (same experience and quality) in the same market are priced similarly. One isn't @ 50p/h and the other at 100. If they were, the guy at 100 would go out of business


Pin

You are assuming all things being equal between two competitive companies. There is no such thing. If I have a crew of 5 people and I am the guy charging $50 and the other company is a one man show at $100, who is more profitable? If my people have a combined 75 years of experience compared to his 15 and they work efficiently as a team, who will be more profitable? The guy at $100 can keep himself busy, and so can I. We can both be profitable. But its not apples and apples. Its a great theory in a text book, but no two companies are that identical, period. This is what differentiation is all about. Those of us who believe in marketing are always looking for ways to present uniquely integrated services to show customers in a tangible way why we offer the better value as a company. This is what you are not understanding. 

To me, my rate is the going rate. I have had other companies try to take my clients for less money and they have been unsuccessful. I have had others try to sell their company to my clientele at similar pricing and they have been unsuccessful. My clients have told me who, when and how much and why they were not interested. 

If you base your rates on what others are doing, you will only be as successful as they are, which these days is probably not good enough.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Pin
> 
> You are assuming all things being equal between two competitive companies. There is no such thing. If I have a crew of 5 people and I am the guy charging $50 and the other company is a one man show at $100, who is more profitable? If my people have a combined 75 years of experience compared to his 15 and they work efficiently as a team, who will be more profitable? The guy at $100 can keep himself busy, and so can I. We can both be profitable. But its not apples and apples. Its a great theory in a text book, but no two companies are that identical, period. This is what differentiation is all about. Those of us who believe in marketing are always looking for ways to present uniquely integrated services to show customers in a tangible way why we offer the better value as a company. This is what you are not understanding.
> 
> ...


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
Worded perfectly


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> If you base your rates on what others are doing, you will only be as successful as they are, which these days is probably not good enough.


In kindergarden didn't they teach you to not do what everyone else is doing? I believe it went something like this:
If all the other painting contractors in your area were jumping off a cliff, would you do it too?


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> You win some and you lose some. If I want the next job and I'm competing against the same guy as the last time then know I've got to be more competetive on the next to get it. There's always a limit to what you can come down to - That's what competition is all about. If I give them my lowest possible and still don't get it then I know whoever does get it is working for less than I would work for.
> 
> Basic business sense really...


That thinking is not good. How do you know what the other painter needs to earn to be profitable? I have over 20 guys so my overhead is going to be FAR less than the guy with 1-5 painters. A single man shop has to charge $60 plus dollars an hour just to survive. We know that our numbers are in the $30+ range due to the amount of men we have. Our hourly rate covers all overhead, salaries, vacations and so on. You lowering your rates when you bid against the other guy will lead you to scratching your head at the end of the year, wondering what went wrong.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> That thinking is not good. How do you know what the other painter needs to earn to be profitable? I have over 20 guys so my overhead is going to be FAR less than the guy with 1-5 painters. A single man shop has to charge $60 plus dollars an hour just to survive. We know that our numbers are in the $30+ range due to the amount of men we have. Our hourly rate covers all overhead, salaries, vacations and so on. You lowering your rates when you bid against the other guy will lead you to scratching your head at the end of the year, wondering what went wrong.


Well put Premier. Man its scary some of the talk lately about guys lowering their prices to align them with the competition. 

Its one thing to look at your own numbers and say ok, usually we go for 30% margin, maybe we will price a few at 25% and watch the closing rate. We do the opposite when we have to much work, and thats fine. 

Its becoming more and more apparent that maybe alot of people truly have no idea what their numbers are and the only barometer they have on their business is what other people are charging and beating them with.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Well put Premier. Man its scary some of the talk lately about guys lowering their prices to align them with the competition.


Not really. Businesses compete all the time - Not just in construction but right throughout the board. I'm not saying I drop my price so low that it gets stupid. Just saying that say I priced a job at $1.00 a foot (just for a figure) and didn't get it then the next job I price, competing against the same guy, I might price at .98/.99 - Nothing wrong with that. It's when you start chopping large percentages off that you're going to see problems.

Like I said - If I give it my lowest shot and still don't get the work then I know the other guy is working for less that I would get out of bed for. 

The majority of my work comes from a regular client base or their recommendations. I might have to compete against somebody else maybe once a month or so - I tend to get about 80% of those jobs and haven't lost any money on them yet. Sure, there's nothing wrong with having a fixed rate and not being negotiable with it. If it works for you then that's fine. I have fixed rates too but when it comes to competing for work that you might want, or even need and are bidding against others, then you have to be flexible with your rates to a certain extent.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> Not really. Businesses compete all the time - Not just in construction but right throughout the board. I'm not saying I drop my price so low that it gets stupid. Just saying that say I priced a job at $1.00 a foot (just for a figure) and didn't get it then the next job I price, competing against the same guy, I might price at .98/.99 - Nothing wrong with that. It's when you start chopping large percentages off that you're going to see problems.


In other words, you compete on price. There are other ways to compete, such as offering more value.

At the end of the day, I imagine that the work most of us do looks pretty similar. I'm sure some are better and some are worse, but I suspect most do good quality work. The same is true in my market.

But it's not just the final product that the customer is paying for. A Yugo will get you to the store, but I don't notice many of them in the parking lot. Same with our customers. It's not just where they get, it's also how they get there.

If you compete on price there is always someone who will beat you. You become reactive and allow your competition to define how you run your business.

If you compete on value you are proactive. You define the terms of how your business operates and how you price your jobs. The competition is almost irrelevant at that point.

Brian Phillips


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Basic business sense really...[/quote]


this is a sales technique i am unfamiliar with,,,,but i am eager to learn,,,,

ive painted my neighbors bathroom in her double wide, a few picket fences, mailboxes, and even some toenails


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the blind leading the blind


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Brian said:


> In other words, you compete on price. There are other ways to compete, such as offering more value.
> 
> At the end of the day, I imagine that the work most of us do looks pretty similar. I'm sure some are better and some are worse, but I suspect most do good quality work. The same is true in my market.
> 
> ...


Yup, I agree to a certain point. I don't let other contractors dictate my rates. I know how much I have to play with when bidding so know how low I can go. There's nothing wrong with some healthy competetiveness (it stops us getting greedy lol). You're correct, there is always somebody who will do the job cheaper so that's why you have to know when to draw the line.

I've been in business for 22 years now so I've seen and experienced most of the pitfalls. The only time I sharpen my pencil to bid for a job is when the job is over a certain $value, going out to others to bid for and it's going to be a worth while project. Mostly new build/renovation etc. The guys who you're giving your bid to in those cases tend only to look at the bottom line and don't want to listen to any 'choose me because' pitch. I'm not interested in what the other guy's overheads are or how much he needs to turnover to make a profit. As I've alreasy said, if he can do it for less than my lowest bid then he's working for less than I would. That's not to say he isn't making profit - Like you've said, his o/heads will be different.

Having said that, I (think I) can see where you're coming from. There are some guys who will keep on going lower and lower until they start winning bids without doing the math. They don't last long but there's plenty of others right behind them. 

There's different ways to run a business. Mine works, yours works and heaps of other people's methods work. There's no 'rule of the thumb' method but there are a lot of basics that the majority of failed businesses just don't take the time to learn.


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> There's different ways to run a business. Mine works, yours works and heaps of other people's methods work. There's no 'rule of the thumb' method but there are a lot of basics that the majority of failed businesses just don't take the time to learn.


I can agree with you there. Too many don't know the basics (which could be considered "rule of thumb") and they are resistant to those basics. That is why most don't make it 5 years.

Brian Phillips


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Brian said:


> But it's not just the final product that the customer is paying for. A Yugo will get you to the store, but I don't notice many of them in the parking lot. Same with our customers. It's not just where they get, it's also how they get there.
> Brian Phillips


All of your post was great Brian, but I liked this part. It is an expample that most people could see or understand.



johnthepainter said:


> ive painted my neighbors bathroom in her double wide, a few picket fences, mailboxes, and even some toenails


So John, how do price toenails, by the square foot or square inch? Or by the total area of footprint?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> ive painted my neighbors bathroom in her double wide


This brings back memories, I went and looked at my first doublewide last winter. I didn't get the job, or even a call back.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the going rate is $40 for 10 toes (this is what the competitors charge)

so,,,,, $4 per toe

or,,,,,,4 square inches for $40= $10 per square inch

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

trailers??? i did paint a lid in a single wide,,,lol

an insurance job

in and out in about 3 hours,,,,,,,,,$1000


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## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

many winters ago when I was much younger I worked at a cracker/cookie factory up north. now these cookies would go down the convaer belt and at the package part of the line theyd split the ones on the right went to the cheap dollar store cookie package. the ones on the left went to the exspensive package, now its the same damn cookie! the customer is gettin the same affect no matter wich he buys. but some will never buy the cheap packaged ones, theyll spend 2 bucks more for it in the fancyer package.Why? because they do! it is very possable for a painter to work for 10 or 20 bucks more a hr than his local compition and stay very busy. it takes years, but when your name is really there. they are payin the fancy package price because they can! and they want the very best, not all HO's are out for the cheapest painter round. alotta my customers never even get another bid besides mine! now are they just dumb? no! they know beyound the shadow of a frogs ass that I gonna do what I do and stand behind it. your wrong bout the higher guy going outta business. really wrong, now if you aint gotta name out in your area then yes you betta slam that trunk with pride my brother. just cause you cant or aint doing it dont mean it aint being done.


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## MHI1976 (Jul 15, 2009)

What did you end up charging endingman?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

MHI1976 said:


> What did you end up charging endingman?


Do you have one to do yourself?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> Do you have one to do yourself?


haha that was exactly my thought.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

MHI1976 said:


> What did you end up charging endingman?


That was the guy's last post. He did log in a couple months ago though. Maybe the garage door became ready and he returned to the thread in May to see if his question was answered.


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## 1977corey (Feb 27, 2009)

:yawn: all of this bibble babble and penis measuring over a simple question about a garage door?
To the OP, if your going to college, why would you want to become a pro painter anyway?


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## sttryffe (Apr 18, 2007)

Brian said:


> In other words, you compete on price. There are other ways to compete, such as offering more value.
> 
> At the end of the day, I imagine that the work most of us do looks pretty similar. I'm sure some are better and some are worse, but I suspect most do good quality work. The same is true in my market.
> 
> ...


 
Brian...this is something I really needed to read again! Thank you!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> What's wrong with all you guys? The poor guy asked a legitimate question. Rather than a straight answer, you guys make fun of him. This is the problem with this site. A bunch of smart a$$ "painters" that can't come up with a number so they belittle the question asker.
> 
> Here's a real answer:
> 
> ...


here is why these same guys complain about being low balled. When someone comes on here asking for a price, give it to them from your area. That helps all of us in the long run. If you ask me on these doors, its $250+ per door 250 on the low side.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

crow said:


> ...now if you aint gotta name out in your area then yes you betta slam that trunk with pride my brother. just cause you cant or aint doing it dont mean it aint being done.


:notworthy:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Blast from the past.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Pinnacle...its too bad we never got to see him argue with our current staff debate champ.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I wanted to hear how the prefinishing for the lumber yard came out for him. Maybe it worked out so well he forgot about this place./


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## client123 (Jul 27, 2010)

Just wanted to thank Pinnacle for what I think is the only estimate and answer to original question. I found this thread by chance just by googling on how much it would cost to paint a garage door. I have never been on this site before. I don't do painting even on DYI level, so sorry for posting here, but just could not resist because the discussion (or at least first couple pages) seems one-sided and IMO Pinnacle provided by far the best answer. (I don't mind if admins will disable my account, and in any case, I am unlikely to return or stick around for long.)

Here is how it works in my "real-world" case. I need to paint a garage door. I just got a local guy (he looks like a professional painter but what do I know) to do it in a weekend for $100 for a 2-car garage door + cost of paint (with receipt from the store). No, I don't know any companies here well and don't have any loyalties to them. If / when I am going to do any comparison shopping, I will go with lowest price since I don't know their quality anyway. If I see you are a very "successful" business, that probably means your profits are high, which means you overcharge compared to others, or you are really good and have a client base willing to pay up, in which case you should not be looking for more work from me... I am very unlikely to hire you. 

If I don't like the guy I hire, next time I'll look for another one. If I like him, I will give him preference for future work, and since his original price is low, it's likely to stay low going further.

This approach worked well for me over years (really good painter I found this way left the area, so I now have to look for a new one this time).

As for original question, the guy was just asking for reasonable price for a given job. Not how to run a business. 

Thank you Pinnacle


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow. The more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## Wallnut (May 4, 2010)

150 per door


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

client123 said:


> If I see you are a very "successful" business, that probably means your profits are high, which means you overcharge compared to others, or you are really good and have a client base willing to pay up, in which case you should not be looking for more work from me... I am very unlikely to hire you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for the great info


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## mikemb72 (Dec 13, 2011)

Theres not that many variables with a garage door. We can reasonably assume the doors are metal, previously painted in fair condition. So its basically a color change/maintenance coat. Heres how I would bid it.
Step 1. Clean the door[let dry]
Step 2. Prime [let dry]
Step 3. 2 top coats
Assume quick drying materials would be used[unless rust was real serious or there was patching or repair work] That stuff is the only variables. Otherwise its absolutely text book painting.
It's a one to two day job in terms of man hours. 200.00 per door is a very reasonable price I'd say. More money if the doors were wood, if there was extensive repair work etc.
I would go 250.00 make sure everything was brushed or sprayed out real nice or use a fine nap roller, mask everything, use dropclothes etc. top quality paint. Don't need to use oil. Acrylic would be fine.


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## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

Phew! Glad we finally got a pro here to answer this question.

I CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT!!!


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