# Painting over vinyl wall covering- need advice



## dg1267 (Dec 6, 2012)

I searched through some older comments and didn't find anything definitive, so I thought I would ask again. 

I'm about to paint over a heavy duty, commercial grade vinyl wall covering. I've never really run into this before, but it isn't cost effective for the client to remove it. Should I use an oil based primer or a water based primer for this? And also, I need to skim coat some of the seams. Will regular skim coat work for this or do I need to prep the surface first?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, but if you provide your thoughts, could you go into some reasoning behind them please? I want to get this right first shot. I hate going back.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Bill is wallpaper expert and he loves when people paint over wall paper he should be along any minute now, you may want to sit down:jester:


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

As long as the adheasion is there, use shelach to prime then top coat it with paint.

Shelach, being alcohol based won't delaminate the wall paper and it dries super fast.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

WHY is it more beneficial to paint over than remove?

Commercial vinyl *should *pull off the wal, even dry. Even on raw rock and with any of the "strippable" pastes, it will do so. Have you tested the strippability?

If I were you, I would educate the customer why it is more cost effective to strip now than create larger issues for the future. 

Although, my expertise is in residential not commercial wallcoverings.


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## dg1267 (Dec 6, 2012)

Dave Mac said:


> Bill is wallpaper expert and he loves when people paint over wall paper he should be along any minute now, you may want to sit down:jester:


Haha! I sense some sarcasm there.:yes:



Custom Brush Co. said:


> As long as the adheasion is there, use shelach to prime then top coat it with paint.
> 
> Shelach, being alcohol based won't delaminate the wall paper and it dries super fast.


I'll check into that. Thanks!



daArch said:


> WHY is it more beneficial to paint over than remove?
> 
> Commercial vinyl *should *pull off the wal, even dry. Even on raw rock and with any of the "strippable" pastes, it will do so. Have you tested the strippability?
> 
> ...


It's a little late to do so. I just got the bid through the interior dec. and bids aren't due till the 9th of Dec. The job has to be completed before the 31st and I have to wait for the construction guys to finish before I can start.


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## dg1267 (Dec 6, 2012)

By the way, the prime coat has to be compatible with SW Pro Mar 200. Would the shellac be compatible?


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## dg1267 (Dec 6, 2012)

Okay, I talked with the SW rep here and got him to lock in a definitive answer. He's saying to go with the Pro Block Oil Primer. He said anything water based is going to bubble (which is what I was pretty sure of). He didn't have much time to talk at the moment so I didn't get to ask him about the shellac though. 

But as long as he says go with it, then I'm covered if something does happen. Thanks again for your prompt (and sarcastic LOL) responses.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Not a real wallpaper guy but I think the reason the guy from SW said go with oil is anything water based will tend to loosed the glue behind the paper. And in my opinion Bin (shellac based) will work.But if I could I would sure try to remove rather than go over as this can open a whole can of worms down the road. And yes the primer will defiantly work with Pro-Mar.


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## the paintman (Feb 3, 2012)

With all due respect Bill it is beneficial to paint over wallcovering for a few good reasons. You still might argue that they are not good reasons at all and i would probably not disagree with you either. I have read your post in the past on this subject and I fully respect your opinions too.

For background info to OP, We have painted over literally 100s of thousands of SF of vinyl in the past 30 years. And a lot of res type paper paper too. 

The main reasons to paint over vinyl or paper are:

#1 It blows the budget out of the water on big commercial repaint jobs like i do to strip wallcovering. Sometimes irregardless of how easy it pulls. More on that later. And it usually does come off in full sheets. Without water. Water is pointless on waterproof vinyl. No need.

2. Painting in a business is much different than a residence. It is a bad can of worms to open in a health facilty if thier is mildew present. And the dust is another problem created to for people with respiritory problems. Its a catch 22. The mildew present is a health issue to begin with. But out of sight out and for the most part out of mind. But I do see the old trend of painting over vinyl in most cases changing to stripping and painting now. And I think the reason why is administrators are more worried about the liablity and heath issues present with the mildew. 

#3 The unknown factor is potentially budget busting as well. We have to put a disclaimer on wallpaper removal jobs for several scenarios. To protect myself. I include it as an easy pull with only standard spot patching and filling. Full skims are not included either. I tell them I don't have xray vision. I have no way of knowing whats underneath and cant charge u up front for what i cant see..

#4 Res type paper paper does not strip easily ever. Sometimes in a million little pieces no matter what u do. In fact on our commercial jobs in many cases When we occasionally run into paper paper we still agree to paint over it if its sound and I can hide the seams well. Just to save me a hugh headache and him a lot of money.

#5 Belive it or not some textured papers, strings and grass acutally have a nice esthtic look when painted . And embossed 3d imprints when painted with a semi it looks really good sometimes. It has been an added bonus for the customer when they first see it. Its a WOW!! That really looks Great, moment!! We love when that happens too. We keep smug when we know its going to happen just for the instant reaction. 

#6 The final reason. Job Security. And it happened totally by accident bill. And it was not my original intention. But we have a 13 yr customer that we have painted over thier vinyl for years. We have recently started going back to some of those same jobs and stripping vinly and painting. LOL I swear i am innocent Bill. So in the end we are both very right. ChaChing ChaChing. ROFLMAO

Note: keep in mind OP the test piece that pulls easy could be a bad trap to fall into. Althought it dont usually happen on a res job 100 years ago i learned a valuable lesson. The test pull piece was the only piece that pulled easy. I still think it was a set up by the homeowner lol! 

If we encounter any one of the following problems thier could be minor or even major upcharges.

1. unprimed or unstrippable paper resulting in a lot of drywall face paper damage. This is challenging to fix and you want to avoid this type of damage as much as u can if possible
2. mild to severe mildew. The spores feed on the paste and thier is always some mildew present. Add moisture on exterior walls or from a water leak from any roof or plumbing or cieling ac units and you will have severe mildew
3. Less than sufficient drywall finish. Level 2 or 3 is encountered in a lot of cases since vinyl does not require a higher finish and even bad drywall joints do not show thru a dull, or flat or busy vinyl. Believe me they show like big bird when painted with satin or 200 eggshell.

We have stripped 2 large jobs that totaled 50000 sf this year and yes we have encountered all of the above. We are currently on our 3rd one for the year for the same customer. About 20k sf. We have had upcharges that addded an additional .05/sf on the overall job for severe damage in certain areas. Not entirely on the whole project but outside walls and leaks. 
The one we are on now is the best one so far. Very minimal mildew damage. Not enough to back charge for. And acutally a nice level 3 finish. Coming out primo after eggshell finish. 


Yes we believe in educating the customer. That is the way we roll. So to protect myself yes i do educate the customer and when I do in the past it is usually thier decision not mine to paint over. I only do what they want or I would be risking overselling and risking losing a big job. Again it goes back to reading the customer as mentioned in other threads. Just like you I don't want to do anything to lose a long term customer or do anything un professional in any way. Everything is market and budget driven no matter what part of the country u live in anyway.
Sorry this is so long. Got to much free time I guess. Just wanted to give the OP the whole deal in one message is all.


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## dg1267 (Dec 6, 2012)

@ "the paintman"... WOW! You really knocked it out of the ballpark in the knowledge department! I appreciate the long post, really. 

I've been painting for years, but not as a "professional painter. I was a remodeler and I've decided to narrow my scope to just painting. Like I said, I'm not a professional. So any info like you gave is great. I strive for quality and am continually looking to better myself and my knowledge base. This forum seems to be quite active unlike some of the others I've looked at. So you'll probably see me on here for a while posting noob questions. LOL 

But anyway, thanks again to everyone who helped point me in the right direction on this task. I do appreciate it!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Painting over wallcovering to me is a stopgap procedure!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

As I replied on the other forum. I would strip it or walk. Painting over it CAN work but I would not risk it, ESPECIALLY in a bank.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

This thread just made me throw up in my mouth. Just a little bit, but enough.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I don't care about painting over wallpaper.

On a good note, painted commercial wallpaper isn't as tough to take down as others. 

If someone pays good enough to paint over it and they know it's not as good as removing it, there's always going to be someone who will do it.

It usually looks bad though.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Toolnut said:


> Not a real wallpaper guy but I think the reason the guy from SW said go with oil is anything water based will tend to loosed the glue behind the paper. And in my opinion Bin (shellac based) will work.But if I could I would sure try to remove rather than go over as this can open a whole can of worms down the road. And yes the primer will defiantly work with Pro-Mar.


 Glue?:blink::no:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

mudbone said:


> Glue?:blink::no:


You tell him Chris.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

@ the paintman,

Thanks for the in depth reply. I understand your position and will grant you some points, but I disagree with others.

I will not even begin to take everyone's time and attention to discuss our differences and agreements for each point (although I would love to do so in person). I think the best that can be said is that every case should be judged on its own based on the knowledge that one has gained over the years through experience and listening to others. 

in other words, one size does not fit all.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I painted over a textured VWC this year with Glidden Lifemaster eggshell (2 coats). I did a test area using 123 primer and another test with no primer before starting the job. The paint bonded with no primer and looked great when finished. It just looked like new VWC in a new color.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gwarel said:


> I painted over a textured VWC this year with Glidden Lifemaster eggshell (2 coats). I did a test area using 123 primer and another test with no primer before starting the job. The paint bonded with no primer and looked great when finished. It just looked like new VWC in a new color.


How did it stand the test of time ?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

daArch said:


> in other words, one size does not fit all.


That's what she said...

:yes:


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

daArch said:


> How did it stand the test of time ?


I've done the same on other properties for the same customer in the past. They have always been satisfied with the results and I have not heard of any problems.


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