# Flat paint that wont burnish



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Can anyone recommend a Benjamin Moore flat paint that wont burnish? And one you can wash that wont leave any indication that you washed it.

If it burnishes and leaves marks where you washed it I will come hunt you down. 

Thanks


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Can anyone recommend a Benjamin Moore flat paint that wont burnish? And one you can wash that wont leave any indication that you washed it.
> 
> If it burnishes and leaves marks where you washed it I will come hunt you down.
> 
> Thanks


another oxymoron. flat paints ARE NOT WASHABLE OR SCRUBBABLE. Don't listen to the salesmen who says it does. From personal experience, after you wash a flat, they always burnish. Just get an eggshell (or velvet) enamel, it's washable and ALMOST has a flat sheen. just a very , very, little shine!!!!!!!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Tough one JP, what color are you using? Are you looking for a true flat? 

IMO, The best true washable FLAT would be Ben Flat. Aura Matte and even Regal Flat have a slight sheen. I guess it depends a lot on the color as to what I would recommended. I kind of feel like this was a baited question, one that you already know the answer to. 

What color, what are you washing with, and what are you washing off?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Tough one JP, what color are you using? Are you looking for a true flat?
> 
> *IMO, The best true washable FLAT would be Ben Flat.* Aura Matte and even Regal Flat have a slight sheen. I guess it depends a lot on the color as to what I would recommended. I kind of feel like this was a baited question, one that you already know the answer to.
> 
> What color, what are you washing with, and what are you washing off?


Interesting - when I asked the same question my BM guy told me that ben flat was not washable. He's got no real painting experience though so I tend to believe you over him. 

Although it's not a BM product, the only flat that i've ever found to be washable is Private Estate from General Paints. I don't believe it's available in the US.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Regal Matte


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Regal Matte


Its not a true flat though, and in dark colors you can still get color rub off. Same with Regal flat. Ben flat has the acrylic colorants so the color rub off shouldn't happen.


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Tough one JP, what color are you using? Are you looking for a true flat?
> 
> IMO, The best true washable FLAT would be Ben Flat. Aura Matte and even Regal Flat have a slight sheen. I guess it depends a lot on the color as to why I would recommended. I kind of feel like this was a baited question, one that you already know the answer to.
> 
> What color, what are you washing with, and what are you washing off?


What is the answer?


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## M.Pillow (Jul 7, 2010)

I've had good luck with Regal Matte in lighter to medium colors not burnishing. 

I think it also depends on what is your perception of washing. Are you washing with the happy fluffy side of the sponge, or the mean nasty green scrubby side, which essentially becomes sandpaper and will knock down any sheen if you ask me.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Its not a true flat though, and in dark colors you can still get color rub off. Same with Regal flat. Ben flat has the acrylic colorants so the color rub off shouldn't happen.


I thought both the Ben and regal use the same colorants, at least here they do. Are you still mixing the regal in the old preview colorants? or the gennix system?

Pat


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> I thought both the Ben and regal use the same colorants, at least here they do. Are you still mixing the regal in the old preview colorants? or the gennix system?
> 
> Pat


Regal Select uses the new gennex colorants. I still carry the original Regal on the standards system, mainly for old custom color formulas. I don't have any experience with Regal Select yet.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Regal Select uses the new gennex colorants. I still carry the original Regal on the standards system, mainly for old custom color formulas. I don't have any experience with Regal Select yet.


interesting - never heard of regal select, the regal and morelife series switched over to the gennix system about two years ago. If you had a custom color match in the old system then you would have to get a re match. if it was a bm color then the computer would just give you the new formula. Only thing left here that still uses the old colorant system is the superspec and few other odd stuff.

Pat


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yep, you guys in California got all the gennex stuff years before the rest of us. I guess you guys got to be the test market.  not to mention the Voc regulations are much tougher in California, probably another reason why You guys were first.


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

Could be that Berkshire-Hathaway was sending a message to the mom and pop franchise holders that the end is near. The "new" colorant system has been on the West Coast almost from day one in the company stores. The stuff works great in even the old line BM materials. 

We put some red in some high gloss StaysClear to hose over a pearl base to make an all waterbourne candy color. Worked just fine. Just eyballed it and did some drawdowns until it looked good. Try it sometime.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

California was the test market Retired. We have gennex here now, its entirely up to the dealer which products to stock.


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

Test market for what? Can you be more specific? These all encompassing statements about these large corporations and how they do things, can be like conversations on a party line that get skewed with every telling. The Benny Moore folks have people who read these few and far between websites on painting and the suits like to have things right and not just something off the top that sounds good or is so generalized that under any scrutiny sound like a sales pitch more than a set of facts.

If a mom and pop Benny Moore dealer decides to not carry or supply what is new, does that not that leave him or her open to getting trounced by the company stores? I know I bought from company stores for years and the service was first class. I hope you are not incorrectley interpreting the message from the big boys at the top.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Retired said:


> Test market for what? Can you be more specific? These all encompassing statements about these large corporations and how they do things, can be like conversations on a party line that get skewed with every telling. The Benny Moore folks have people who read these few and far between websites on painting and the suits like to have things right and not just something off the top that sounds good or is so generalized that under any scrutiny sound like a sales pitch more than a set of facts.


Cali was the test market for Aura.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Retired said:


> Test market for what? Can you be more specific? These all encompassing statements about these large corporations and how they do things, can be like conversations on a party line that get skewed with every telling. The Benny Moore folks have people who read these few and far between websites on painting and the suits like to have things right and not just something off the top that sounds good or is so generalized that under any scrutiny sound like a sales pitch more than a set of facts.
> 
> If a mom and pop Benny Moore dealer decides to not carry or supply what is new, does that not that leave him or her open to getting trounced by the company stores? I know I bought from company stores for years and the service was first class. I hope you are not incorrectley interpreting the message from the big boys at the top.



Dude we get it, your not a BM fan, its ok. nothing wrong with wearing that Martha Stewart Collection t-shirt you got from being the number purchaser at your local HD. 

California seems to be the test market for many things, not just paint. However we were the test market for aura, that's what they told us when a few select painters went to the Pomona plant and got paid $200 bucks for a half a day of testing the stuff. I remember I was there, they had several buckets of paint, no labels so we had no idea what we were using. After rolling a few pieces of drywall they would ask us which one did we like and how come. 9 out of 10 times I picked the aura 

Pat


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## jimsonburg (Aug 4, 2010)

I preferred Benjamin Moore Aura paint, because it uses new colorant technology to create and extremely strong, durable and washable, environment friendly. It requires only a maximum of two coats.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Dude we get it, your not a BM fan, its ok. nothing wrong with wearing that Martha Stewart Collection t-shirt you got from being the number purchaser at your local HD.
> 
> California seems to be the test market for many things, not just paint. However we were the test market for aura, that's what they told us when a few select painters went to the Pomona plant and got paid $200 bucks for a half a day of testing the stuff. I remember I was there, they had several buckets of paint, no labels so we had no idea what we were using. After rolling a few pieces of drywall they would ask us which one did we like and how come. 9 out of 10 times I picked the aura
> 
> Pat


We did the same in Toronto, I was there. Similar experience.
Same money in Canadian?


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> Dude we get it, your not a BM fan, its ok. nothing wrong with wearing that Martha Stewart Collection t-shirt you got from being the number purchaser at your local HD.
> 
> California seems to be the test market for many things, not just paint. However we were the test market for aura, that's what they told us when a few select painters went to the Pomona plant and got paid $200 bucks for a half a day of testing the stuff. I remember I was there, they had several buckets of paint, no labels so we had no idea what we were using. After rolling a few pieces of drywall they would ask us which one did we like and how come. 9 out of 10 times I picked the aura.
> 
> ...


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

It was not about the money when I went to the factory to test out the Aura, I would have done it for free. It was a fun experience. It was also a honor too because they just wanted two painters from our paint store and the owner picked me. I thought that was pretty cool.

Not sure why you get so fired up over putting red over white. If it really takes you 4+ coats, then the first thing that comes to mind here is there is something wrong with the person applying the paint, not the paint. It also sounds like you are loosing sleep over this, This can not be healthy. Maybe there are few others in your area that are having the same issue. post a add in your local craigslist, and see if you could start a few meetings or something. This might help you sleep better at night.

"Hi, my name is Retired and I'm a Aura 4 coater" Welcome retired , we are glad to have you.

Pat


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> It was not about the money when I went to the factory to test out the Aura, I would have done it for free. It was a fun experience. It was also a honor too because they just wanted two painters from our paint store and the owner picked me. I thought that was pretty cool.
> 
> Not sure why you get so fired up over putting red over white. If it really takes you 4+ coats, then the first thing that comes to mind here is there is something wrong with the person applying the paint, not the paint. It also sounds like you are loosing sleep over this, This can not be healthy. Maybe there are few others in your area that are having the same issue. post a add in your local craigslist, and see if you could start a few meetings or something. This might help you sleep better at night.
> 
> ...


 By taking money, there are strings attached so basically you sold out. I would imagine "your paint store" dude had you all wrapped up in a neat package to deliver the the suits at Benny Moore. I can put you on to what a real blind test involves if you like. 

Naa, I'd do with Aura red like any other red and just like any trained craftsman use a grey undercoat. I'd have to price out the job first. If thats OK. I can probably get a match of that Aura red at Home Depot and tint up some Regal with a little carbon black for that undercoat. 



Sold and bought some things on Craigslist and no problems. Did you have a problem with them or is this some obtuse thing you are just tossing out because you had a problem at one time? I only say this because Craigslist sort of came out of the blue. Are you saying there are scammers on there? We ain't in Kansas there dude.. Thank the Good Lord there are none here or even one or two with agendas that somehow seem to always run to selling paint and not springing for an ad.

Next round you can try druggie, drunk or likes boys but be advised, Psych 101 I aced, and I don't do guilt trips. I don't smoke either.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Tough one JP, what color are you using? Are you looking for a true flat?
> 
> IMO, The best true washable FLAT would be Ben Flat. Aura Matte and even Regal Flat have a slight sheen. I guess it depends a lot on the color as to what I would recommended. I kind of feel like this was a baited question, one that you already know the answer to.
> 
> What color, what are you washing with, and what are you washing off?


Its baited no doubt... you havent met me. Looking for a true flat that you can touch with your knuckle and wont leave a mark or wash with a brand new white cotton rag you get from the paint store and not leave any indication that you cleaned or wiped the wall.

You're thinking Ben Flat should be a good choice? It needs to be non dependent of color choice because I can see burnishing on a color like White Dove from Sherwin Williams.

If I go with Aura I'll get a slight sheen... is that what you're telling me? Is it similar in comparison to say... Duration Home Matte? Now you can see burnishing on Duration Home Matte, will I see the same with Aura matte?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JP you did say flat, not matte, which was what led me to believe the question was baited.  

As far as a product recommendation, it does depend on the color and the application. There isn't one end all be all product out there as everyone knows.

If it were a darker color I would recommend Aura Matte, but that's not a flat finish. A lighter color, Aura or Regal Matte, again not a flat finish. 

Ben flat would be my best suggestion for an all around true flat finish. Color choice shouldn't be a huge factor with this product. Obviously the burnish resistance wont be as good as Aura or even Regal, but it would depend on what is being removed from the film, and the products/methods to remove it. The color rub off should be much better than any of the standard paints tinted with glycol based colorants. That's why I would recommend Ben. Fits the widest range of applications, without color being a factor. Probably the most bang for the buck, so to speak. Just my. 02


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I wish I was closer to a BM facility. I would love to be a part of their blind tests (and yes, if the applicator does not know what is in the cans, it is a blind test, if neither the applicator or test administrator know, it is a double blind). I do not think any true flat will be burnish resistant to any significant degree. The flattest matte I have used is Graham Ceramic Flat, but in deep colors burnish resistance is not very good.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Retired said:


> By taking money, there are strings attached so basically you sold out. I would imagine "your paint store" dude had you all wrapped up in a neat package to deliver the the suits at Benny Moore. I can put you on to what a real blind test involves if you like.
> 
> Naa, I'd do with Aura red like any other red and just like any trained craftsman use a grey undercoat. I'd have to price out the job first. If thats OK. I can probably get a match of that Aura red at Home Depot and tint up some Regal with a little carbon black for that undercoat.
> 
> ...


As I sit here scratching my head trying to figure a way to respond to your post, I think I'm just going to watch my favorite youtube video again.







Pat


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

LOL, that Mr. Bean cracks me up!


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

RCP said:


> LOL, that Mr. Bean cracks me up!


yep, I'm a huge fan of that guy 

Pat


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> And one you can wash that wont leave any indication that you washed it.



Can anyone recommend an airplane that can travel without flying? Can anyone recommend a sandwich that will make me full without eating it?

This whole flat needing to be washable is not necessary in my opinion.

The most important thing is NOT to mess up anything about how flats already apply/dry/ etc.

If you want washable go with a matte.

I am not opposed to a washable flat, just so long as the don't change the paint to such a degree that it undermines the ease and efficiency of painting with a flat.

Also, that they don't have to add some kind of extremely exotic chemicals that give you a headache or otherwise assault your nervous system more so that traditional paints, just to achieve this obsession of having a washable flat.

If they make one that in no way undermines the point of using a flat, and doesn't have any new health hazards, I will use it, and certainly will appreciate the fact that it doesn't burnish easily.

But in the mean time I hope the industry doesn't go messing up perfectly good functioning products to pursue this goal of a washable flat.


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## jonnythecutter (Mar 10, 2009)

Aura Matte, Collection Uliti Matte.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

jimsonburg said:


> I preferred Benjamin Moore Aura paint,
> It requires only a maximum of two coats.


unless it don't.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I personally don't want a washable non-burnishing flat. That would eliminate faster repaints and job security. On the bright side, flats can be touched up pretty easy and fast, without too much worry about lapping.


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## dvp (Jun 21, 2010)

what does non burnishing mean? just curious. i dont use flat exept on stucco.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

dvp said:


> what does non burnishing mean? just curious. i dont use flat exept on stucco.


i'm not trying to bust your balls or anything but, you use the internet to use this forum, lol, why don't you use it to look up the word "burnish"?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> i'm not trying to bust your balls or anything but, you use the internet to use this forum, lol, why don't you use it to look up the word "burnish"?


Different meaning when referring to paint...sort of.

Burnishing is when the flat finish builds a sheen, sort of like being polished. That happens when the surface is wiped when cleaned. You get a shiny spot :thumbsup:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

These colours took a lot of abuse after, but they were actually ok
when we went back months later.
But Aura is not 100% flat you can see some of the reflection of the light.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That must have taken 3-4 coats right, George? And you must have lost money since Aura is sooooooo overpriced. And I am sure you could have gotten identical results with brand XYZ paint including washablity with some $22/gallon or cheaper paint. You probably will never use it again.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

One coat, solid 100% hiding.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Here are some more Aura colours,
you think Aura makes us some money?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I haven't seen any 100% flat that won't burnish.
Maybe there are some out there. To most people matte is flat isn't it?
In French (the other side of the can here) flat means Matte.


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## saltairhhi (Aug 18, 2010)

I just wash the entire wall, then it doesn't matter!:tongue_smilie:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

saltairhhi said:


> I just wash the entire wall, then it doesn't matter!:tongue_smilie:


That makes sense


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

George Z said:


> I haven't seen any 100% flat that won't burnish.
> Maybe there are some out there. To most people matte is flat isn't it?
> In French (the other side of the can here) flat means Matte.


"matte" means: fancy flat:thumbsup:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> "matte" means: fancy flat:thumbsup:


Like my fancy martini










I add the extra olive to make it fancy.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It may be used incorrectly, but here matte means almost flat with some almost flats being very low sheen and still other almost flats being almost eggshells (how SOME companies get away with claiming washable flat status).


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Retired said:


> By taking money, there are strings attached so basically you sold out. I would imagine "your paint store" dude had you all wrapped up in a neat package to deliver the the suits at Benny Moore. I can put you on to what a real blind test involves if you like.
> 
> Naa, I'd do with Aura red like any other red and just like any trained craftsman use a grey undercoat. I'd have to price out the job first. If thats OK. I can probably get a match of that Aura red at Home Depot and tint up some Regal with a little carbon black for that undercoat.
> 
> ...


is this the borg/capt america???? if so,,,,welcome aboard dude!!!!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

a breath of fresh air


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

high fibre said:


> a breath of fresh air


 
Yes John, it's really me. I have retired and accepted Benjamin Moore as my personal saviour.

I was gonna shoot you a pic of the old boy but I'm getting the feeling that he may be sort of like Betty Crocker.

I did find some pix of Benjamin Franklin, Michael Moore and the very foxy Demi Moore that you might like.

Later dude!


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