# Sherwin should be ashamed



## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

I picked up a small job painting a garage ceiling and the customer had already grabbed a gallon of Promar 200. It wasn't going to be enough so I told him we need one more gallon. His response was "oof" I laughed I thought he was joking but then he told me he paid with tax $42 and change. What?! Are you effing kidding me?! There walk in price on that paint is what you would pay walk in on "Ben" and I wouldn't even put those in the same league. 
I know their response is that "this is what pays for the discounts they provide to the high volume clients" but really those prices are merely closer to what they should be charging. 
I have no complaints for most of their product line but their prices for products that are no better than other prominent competitors, and many times out classed in certain product lines, are ridiculous. For this reason alone they don't get my business no matter their promises. I would rather pay fair prices up front then to grab my ankles for a few hundred gallons trying to get a better price. PPG and Ben Moore treat their customers homeowners AND contractors much better in this aspect.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Its not SW's fault in a way its just the way the system is set up. SW does not want PM being sold to HO's. Yes PM 200 should be like $30 and PM 400 should be $25 to the retail person but its not. Its the idiot behind the counter who sells PM200 by the truck load to the contractor then is too lazy to help out the retail customer. I would assume the guy comes in and tells the counter guy what he is painting, then PM200 he assumes will be like $25, then at the register is $40 and he is stuck. I can go on, why this happens as I worked there for 13 years but it does and it is due to laziness and poor training at the store.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

$42 eh? And to think _that_ was at 40% off.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

i hear yah, f them. cloverdale and bm when i want the good stuff


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lazerlnes said:


> I picked up a small job painting a garage ceiling and the customer had already grabbed a gallon of Promar 200. It wasn't going to be enough so I told him we need one more gallon. His response was "oof" I laughed I thought he was joking but then he told me he paid with tax $42 and change. What?! Are you effing kidding me?! There walk in price on that paint is what you would pay walk in on "Ben" and I wouldn't even put those in the same league.
> I know their response is that "this is what pays for the discounts they provide to the high volume clients" but really those prices are merely closer to what they should be charging.
> I have no complaints for most of their product line but their prices for products that are no better than other prominent competitors, and many times out classed in certain product lines, are ridiculous. For this reason alone they don't get my business no matter their promises. I would rather pay fair prices up front then to grab my ankles for a few hundred gallons trying to get a better price. PPG and Ben Moore treat their customers homeowners AND contractors much better in this aspect.


$42 a gallon is with a 10% discount too! Their retail price on 200 is pushing $50! Disgusting isn't it. But somehow in the minds of the vast majority of painters this is not a problem. In fact it actually benefits a lot of painters when they buy it for $15 and mark it up to $35.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> $42 eh? And to think _that_ was at 40% off.


Nope. They don't discount the Promar line during those promos. They usually give a smaller discount, which they actually did this time.

And people, just so you know, the SW employees and manager can actually get in trouble if they discount the promar lines to retail customers! We used to have a fictitious contractor account so we could run invoices with a discount without being caught by an auditor. Most SW stores probably still do if they are smart!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The absolute WORST part? Promar 200 never costs more than $4-5 to manufacture.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

One of MANY reasons SW does not get my business unless absolutely necessary. Pm 200 is garbage paint that should never cost more than $25 a gallon.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> Nope. They don't discount the Promar line during those promos. They usually give a smaller discount, which they actually did this time.


I was being sarcastic.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

It's not only SW, all major paint stores mark up retail prices like crazy. How do you think they are able to give painting contractors discounts of 30-40% and still make a few bucks. Paint and automotive stores are the worst when it comes to retail prices, they are just ridiculous.


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## runnygrateful (Oct 26, 2017)

Haris said:


> It's not only SW, all major paint stores mark up retail prices like crazy. How do you think they are able to give painting contractors discounts of 30-40% and still make a few bucks. Paint and automotive stores are the worst when it comes to retail prices, they are just ridiculous.


Because they can be. Problem is that if there's not much competition, they can pretty much do whatever they want


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

We enable them. My rep says they get in trouble for manually discounting and their 40% off sales still net a 40GM at that discount level for the district. So if they ever say that they're selling it at cost, its at their "STORE" cost, not district. Independent retailers don't have that same luxury. They can't sell for a negative margin and show a net loss.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Sounds normal to me. And it isn't just Sherwin, so the bashing can continue on every other company out there. From mattress stores "going out of business" weekly advertisements, to 50% off Hobby Lobby discounts, etc. etc.

They make a good chunk off the retail customer, where gallonage comes from contractors. 

Kind of like contractors giving small discounts to customers who are repeat customers, vs a new one.

I just don't think it's a big deal. <shrugs>


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

You dont think its a big deal that SW charges ten more bucks a gallon for equivilant paints than everyone else? SW has an extra middle man that makes his profit. Thats part of it. That, and they advertise a lot more. 

Im guessing you get good prices, but I dont understand why people use them, when almost everything they sell costs significantly more than their competitors, (for the same thing, or equivilent, in the case of paints.)

Examples: one sided sanding sponges cost about 50 cents at any given paint store. $1.50 at Slick Willies. Contractor grade flat paint retail: $40 at SW, $25-30 everywhere else. Thats why its a big deal.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SWPB said:


> We enable them. My rep says they get in trouble for manually discounting and their 40% off sales still net a 40GM at that discount level for the district. So if they ever say that they're selling it at cost, its at their "STORE" cost, not district. Independent retailers don't have that same luxury. They can't sell for a negative margin and show a net loss.


Sw has already made a sizable profit as soon as the paint gets billed to the store.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> I was being sarcastic.


I know.:wink:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

woodcoyote said:


> Sounds normal to me. And it isn't just Sherwin, so the bashing can continue on every other company out there. From mattress stores "going out of business" weekly advertisements, to 50% off Hobby Lobby discounts, etc. etc.
> 
> They make a good chunk off the retail customer, where gallonage comes from contractors.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, if a retailer cannot show that a certain percentage of sales in a given time frame were at the full "retail" price, before any discount, they are in violation of federal law. BUT it takes quite an effort to get anyone to do anything about it. The only time I ever saw a government entity of any sort come down on SW was back in the late 80's when the state of California made SW quit advertising sale prices for months at a time. Technically, if a product is advertised for a "sale" price for more than 60 days then that legally becomes the "retail" price for a period of time. Again, almost never enforced. Is it a big deal? Not for the consumers. But this is one of the major issues that force small businesses to close!

There was a lawsuit last year against several major retailers for this, but I've never seen any results from it yet. It may have been settled out of court. I know Kohl's and Macy's were the two biggest companies in the lawsuit.

It's called "anchor pricing" by the way and IS illegal to a certain extent. But yes, almost everyone does it to a certain extent. Will it will ever be stopped? I doubt it as the small businesses don't have any political clout to speak of and never will.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

SW is smart . . . they rotate their sale prices every month. Month 1 = Cashmere, Month 2 = Superpaint, etc. There's never a time when there isn't a sale on their retail lines. And judging by the explosion of profit for Q3 at SW, business is good. Meet the Walmart of the paint industry.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> You dont think its a big deal that SW charges ten more bucks a gallon for equivilant paints than everyone else? SW has an extra middle man that makes his profit. Thats part of it. That, and they advertise a lot more.
> 
> Im guessing you get good prices, but I dont understand why people use them, when almost everything they sell costs significantly more than their competitors, (for the same thing, or equivilent, in the case of paints.)
> 
> Examples: one sided sanding sponges cost about 50 cents at any given paint store. $1.50 at Slick Willies. Contractor grade flat paint retail: $40 at SW, $25-30 everywhere else. Thats why its a big deal.


So why are painters drawn to SW like moths to a security light? I sell Purdy cheaper then SW even when they give a 20% contractor discount. And almost everything else i sell is cheaper than them. They OWN Purdy and i sell Purdy at RETAIL cheaper than they do with a contractors 20% discount! Honest to god, i give a 10% contractor discount on a price that is already cheaper than them, and i have pretty much quit carrying Purdy because it doesn't sell. Explain that to me. Their retail price on a microfiber 9x3/8 cover is over $6.00, and i retail that same cover for $4.79 and give a contractor discount of 10%. 20% off $6.00 is $4.80! And i'll gladly sell that cover to a painter for $4.25 and still make a nice profit off of it. Yet the painters around here swarm SW every morning!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SWPB said:


> SW is smart . . . they rotate their sale prices every month. Month 1 = Cashmere, Month 2 = Superpaint, etc. There's never a time when there isn't a sale on their retail lines. And judging by the explosion of profit for Q3 at SW, business is good. Meet the Walmart of the paint industry.


And the California lawsuit is the reason why! They didn't do that until California went after them. There was a period of time when California had different promo lengths then the rest of the country. Until SW found out that it worked quite well so they adopted the every month thing nationwide. They used to promote the old Styleperfect line for $8.99 and it NEVER went off sale. It was constantly promoted as being "on sale now". The "retail" price was always advertised in the sales as being $12.99, but it was NEVER sold for that.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

It's the convenience factor. Most painters don't drive 5 miles out of their way, pass two SWs and one PPG, to support the local moms & pops shops. And it's sad. SW knows the painters won't do it, so they make loot on the sundries & brush / rollers. Hell, I remember back in the day picking up Minwax for like $7 a quart and SW was selling it for like $10+. And now they "own" (high market share), TWO of the distribution channels (big box & company owned stores). That only leaves the independent channel where they get you with Pratt & Lambert. PPG has become less relevant over the years because they screw up everything they touch (i.e. Porter Paints). They're the only big company that could challenge SW's deep pockets.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> So why are painters drawn to SW like moths to a security light? I sell Purdy cheaper then SW even when they give a 20% contractor discount. And almost everything else i sell is cheaper than them. They OWN Purdy and i sell Purdy at RETAIL cheaper than they do with a contractors 20% discount! Honest to god, i give a 10% contractor discount on a price that is already cheaper than them, and i have pretty much quit carrying Purdy because it doesn't sell. Explain that to me. Their retail price on a microfiber 9x3/8 cover is over $6.00, and i retail that same cover for $4.79 and give a contractor discount of 10%. 20% off $6.00 is $4.80! And i'll gladly sell that cover to a painter for $4.25 and still make a nice profit off of it. Yet the painters around here swarm SW every morning!


I used to be able to go to Menards and buy Purdy's cheaper than S/W. Even HD and Lowes were cheaper. I wasn't aware about the factory, district, store, and retail sales/markup thing they have going. "Everybody" has their fingers in the till and that's just on the S/W side. lol What a racket....


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wolfgang said:


> I used to be able to go to Menards and buy Purdy's cheaper than S/W. Even HD and Lowes were cheaper. I wasn't aware about the factory, district, store, and retail sales/markup thing they have going. "Everybody" has their fingers in the till and that's just on the S/W side. lol What a racket....


Sw is described in the Wall Street Journal as a "manufacturing profit center", which means they actually make a profit by simply manufacturing their paint and distributing it to their stores and other retailers. They don't need to sell a drop to a consumer to actually make a profit as long as the retail outlets of their product keep ordering it. It's a weird concept. I guess you need an MBA to understand it.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

In the roughly 14 years I've been doing this, I honestly don't think I've ever even seen a SW store much less entered one. That being said, you guys certainly have me intrigued. Next time I hit the city, I'll have to check one out.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

those cheap [edited] even hide sims liners in the back. they cant display them because they like to peddle their [edited] purdy line


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

There is a lot more SW should be ashamed of besides their pricing! Especially in light of what is going on in hollywood right now.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Vylum said:


> those cheap [edited] even hide sims liners in the back. they cant display them because they like to peddle their [edited] purdy line


This is the second time a Mod has had to edit your posts for language. Consider this your one and only warning. Do it again and you're gone.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> In the roughly 14 years I've been doing this, I honestly don't think I've ever even seen a SW store much less entered one. That being said, you guys certainly have me intrigued. Next time I hit the city, I'll have to check one out.


Don't waste your time, it's not worth it.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

Wolfgang said:


> This is the second time a Mod has had to edit your posts for language. Consider this your one and only warning. Do it again and you're gone.


youre getting grumpy in your old age. maybe nap time ?


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

I can't complain about paint pricing I'm getting at SW and customer service is great, mind you I've known store manager there for 18 years and he always takes good care of me. Sundries are overpriced, most of them anyways but how many people are gonna get paint at SW then drive to paint store B to get a few brushes and then to paint store C to get some trey liners or anything else. It's just not convenient and people don't do it, well most people anyways. And another factor is small local stores don't have the funds to advertise like big boys do so how is a person to know that they can get better pricing on many items there. This morning driving to work listening to our local radio rock station in between songs there was a BM advertisement for Aura and driving home back from work there is Dulux advertising on that same station. Never hear the small local paint stores advertising on radio because they can't afford it and same goes for grocery, harware stores etc.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

This discussion isn’t new; it’s been had before and will be again. 

Personally I feel if SW wants to sell their products for $100 a gallon, and can get someone to buy em’, then fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the buyers’ heads. People buy from them because they are convenient, they are a national brand name, and they have effective advertising. Do your due diligence and determine which of their products may work for you and what a fair price is. 

I buy from them, but also give about 50% of my business to a regional company. Just depends on what I need, possible customer preferences, and if either gave me a referral for the job I’m doing. Prices from either place don’t worry me much.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

Vylum said:


> youre getting grumpy in your old age. maybe nap time ?


Dude, is that really necessary?


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

RH said:


> This discussion isn’t new; it’s been had before and will be again.
> 
> Personally I feel if SW wants to sell their products for $100 a gallon, and can get someone to buy em’, then fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the buyers’ heads. People buy from them because they are convenient, they are a national brand name, and they have effective advertising. Do your due diligence and determine which of their products may work for you and what a fair price is.
> 
> I buy from them, but also give about 50% of my business to a regional company. Just depends on what I need, possible customer preferences, and if either gave me a referral for the job I’m doing. Prices from either place don’t worry me much.


I agre with everything you've said RH but would like to add they are not only a national brand name anymore but rather international, they bought out General Paint stores across Canada and they are all over the country now. I never checked but wouldn't be surprised if they have stores across Latin America, Europe etc. and if they don't yet I'm pretty sure they will soon.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Haris said:


> I never checked but wouldn't be surprised if they have stores across Latin America, Europe etc. and if they don't yet I'm pretty sure they will soon.


They are, pretty much everywhere. 

There are outlets in Mexico, etc. 

Even 3rd party companies such as Sayerlack, which makes excellent products btw, which is owned by Sherwin Williams. It is an Italian company and has big in roads into the wood finishing segment of the European market.

Long story short, they have a lot of products and access to a lot of products, which is one reason myself and others shop there a lot. I don't always agree with the pricing things they do, but it is a business and there are other companies out there that do similar things or market similar ways.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

PACman said:


> Sw is described in the Wall Street Journal as a "manufacturing profit center", which means they actually make a profit by simply manufacturing their paint and distributing it to their stores and other retailers. They don't need to sell a drop to a consumer to actually make a profit as long as the retail outlets of their product keep ordering it. It's a weird concept. I guess you need an MBA to understand it.


Makes sense, but at the end of the tunnel someone has to buy the paint or else the factory closes due to no demand. So yes...from a financial aspect that is probably correct, but from a fundamental side it's all about sales..to someone. 

Kinda of like Walmart, they don't own 90% of their stores. Most walmarts people walk into don't belong to walmart.  :vs_cool:


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

RH said:


> This discussion isn’t new; it’s been had before and will be again.
> 
> Personally I feel if SW wants to sell their products for $100 a gallon, and can get someone to buy em’, then fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the buyers’ heads. People buy from them because they are convenient, they are a national brand name, and they have effective advertising. Do your due diligence and determine which of their products may work for you and what a fair price is.
> 
> I buy from them, but also give about 50% of my business to a regional company. Just depends on what I need, possible customer preferences, and if either gave me a referral for the job I’m doing. Prices from either place don’t worry me much.





woodcoyote said:


> They are, pretty much everywhere.
> 
> There are outlets in Mexico, etc.
> 
> ...


After I posted in this thread did a quick google search and found out they're on every continent already, didn't know that before but it doesn't surprise me one bit. Seems like some ppl don't like them but I have no problem dealing with SW.


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

There are only two places in my area to buy paint, S/W and Home Depot.I use Sherwin because they are everywhere.Would I buy from other vendors if I could,sure it is only good business to use what is best for your project. Would I drive 20 miles to get it,not if I can get what I need closer. But hey guys can we give the Sherwin bashing a break it's getting old. You know what they say about hitting yourself in the head with a rock, it feels good when you stop.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

You guys are pretty lucky. I have two choices of places to buy paint here in town. The local lumberyard and the local hardware store. Luckily for me the hardware store sells BM and have pretty dedicated staff running the paint department. Problem is theyr'e geared towards DIY folks, so when I need tools or gear I have to drive 85Km to the nearest actual paint store that deals with actual painters.

I can't even find a brush around here that's decent.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Don't waste your time, it's not worth it.


They do have really nice stores, if you are in to paying for stuff like that!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> This discussion isn’t new; it’s been had before and will be again.
> 
> Personally I feel if SW wants to sell their products for $100 a gallon, and can get someone to buy em’, then fine. Nobody is holding a gun to the buyers’ heads. People buy from them because they are convenient, they are a national brand name, and they have effective advertising. Do your due diligence and determine which of their products may work for you and what a fair price is.
> 
> I buy from them, but also give about 50% of my business to a regional company. Just depends on what I need, possible customer preferences, and if either gave me a referral for the job I’m doing. Prices from either place don’t worry me much.


Like the people paying $6 for a cheeseburger at McDonalds?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

so is having one place to buy a product a good idea? Is having one mega company all over the world going to be a good thing? A lot of history says it is a terrible thing. It leads to lower quality, higher prices, and a general lack of service. I have seen this get worse and worse. The current state we are in is one of the last phases of getting to only two paint manufacturers. SW and PPG. And how long do you think PPG would hold on when it gets to only those two? 5 years? Maybe 10? What happens when there is only SW? It may get to that point in 20 years or so. It is a very scary probability to those of us that have been in the paint industry for a long time. You don't have any concept of how it will effect your business. You will become 100% applicators. Absolutely nothing to differentiate between yo and any other applicator, other that the speed you apply the product. You will be paying god knows how much for what by that time will be Promar 700 quality paint. $400-500 a gallon is a real possibility in the next 30-40 years. There will be higher quality paints, but they will be out of the budget of all but the very richest consumers. I suggest reading a book called "the Rise and Fall of General Motors." as it spells out very well the potential for disaster the lack of competition can create. And we are startlingly close to that reality.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I know I continue to be one of the few "Sherman-Williams" guys left on here. As I've stated before, my SW is one of the very best SW stores, if not in Ohio, in the whole U.S.A. based on things I hear about poor customer service, lack of products, etc. elsewhere. 

Just the other day, a painter from out of town was in my SW store and he just raved about the place. He frequented other SW stores within a 50-mile radius and said, "They don't know anything (typical), and I can't get some of the product at these other stores that you readily have on hand here."

I've tried to buy into the BM, California, even PPG stuff, and I just don't have the same experience that the rest of you have with these other manufacturers. I can't get good pricing on BM to make it worthwhile, my California store only carries the mid to lower end stuff, and my PPG store is 20 miles further down the road..........


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gymschu said:


> I know I continue to be one of the few "Sherman-Williams" guys left on here. As I've stated before, my SW is one of the very best SW stores, if not in Ohio, in the whole U.S.A. based on things I hear about poor customer service, lack of products, etc. elsewhere.
> 
> Just the other day, a painter from out of town was in my SW store and he just raved about the place. He frequented other SW stores within a 50-mile radius and said, "They don't know anything (typical), and I can't get some of the product at these other stores that you readily have on hand here."
> 
> I've tried to buy into the BM, California, even PPG stuff, and I just don't have the same experience that the rest of you have with these other manufacturers. I can't get good pricing on BM to make it worthwhile, my California store only carries the mid to lower end stuff, and my PPG store is 20 miles further down the road..........


I have a good one out here too. The assistant manager is especially outstanding. The rest are okay but it's a training store so you have to know who to talk to about what.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

A. SW are marketing geniuses (to the homeowners anyways)
B. Their locations and hours are stellar. 
C. Prices? Who cares. I don’t pay for materials. 
These are great reasons to patron a SW store, but honestly for the few years I used to buy from them, in my opinion they don’t have one product that even comes close to Benjamin Moore as far as quality. SW paints to me, are like your top of the line big box store paint as far as quality.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

loaded brush said:


> A. SW are marketing geniuses (to the homeowners anyways)
> B. Their locations and hours are stellar.
> C. Prices? Who cares. I don’t pay for materials.
> These are great reasons to patron a SW store, but honestly for the few years I used to buy from them, in my opinion they don’t have one product that even comes close to Benjamin Moore as far as quality. SW paints to me, are like your top of the line big box store paint as far as quality.


I would use BM if either local outlet was any good as a paint supplier. One is a lumber yard and the other a farm supply store. In either you take your chances anytime you get paint mixed.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Gymschu said:


> I know I continue to be one of the few "Sherman-Williams" guys left on here. As I've stated before, my SW is one of the very best SW stores, if not in Ohio, in the whole U.S.A. based on things I hear about poor customer service, lack of products, etc. elsewhere.
> 
> Just the other day, a painter from out of town was in my SW store and he just raved about the place. He frequented other SW stores within a 50-mile radius and said, "They don't know anything (typical), and I can't get some of the product at these other stores that you readily have on hand here."
> 
> I've tried to buy into the BM, California, even PPG stuff, and I just don't have the same experience that the rest of you have with these other manufacturers. I can't get good pricing on BM to make it worthwhile, my California store only carries the mid to lower end stuff, and my PPG store is 20 miles further down the road..........


I get most of my paint from SW. It's a training store, but the trainers are good people. Seven miles from my house. BM, PPG, 25-35 miles away. It's an easy choice for me, and it's based upon convenience.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> so is having one place to buy a product a good idea? Is having one mega company all over the world going to be a good thing? A lot of history says it is a terrible thing. It leads to lower quality, higher prices, and a general lack of service. I have seen this get worse and worse. The current state we are in is one of the last phases of getting to only two paint manufacturers. SW and PPG. And how long do you think PPG would hold on when it gets to only those two? 5 years? Maybe 10? What happens when there is only SW? It may get to that point in 20 years or so. It is a very scary probability to those of us that have been in the paint industry for a long time. You don't have any concept of how it will effect your business. You will become 100% applicators. Absolutely nothing to differentiate between yo and any other applicator, other that the speed you apply the product. You will be paying god knows how much for what by that time will be Promar 700 quality paint. $400-500 a gallon is a real possibility in the next 30-40 years. There will be higher quality paints, but they will be out of the budget of all but the very richest consumers. I suggest reading a book called "the Rise and Fall of General Motors." as it spells out very well the potential for disaster the lack of competition can create. And we are startlingly close to that reality.


Well, for every Sherman Anti-Trust Act, there seems to be a Sherwin Anti-Anti Trust act, eh?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

My SW store is fantastic as well. My rep seems to change once every year or two but every rep I've had was great. 

To be fair my local Spectrum store is good as well and they just revamped their store which is nice. I get my breakthrough and brushes from there. 
Maybe for the limited amount of exteriors I go I'll switch to BM simply because I think they will hold up better to the crazy fading problem we have here than SW. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I wonder if ordering SW, or any other paint through amazon, would work out OK.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

CApainter said:


> I wonder if ordering SW, or any other paint through amazon, would work out OK.


I don't see why not, all the paint stores get their paint shipped and delivered from elsewhere. Only problem with that could be if you order tinted paint and match is off you have to send it back could be a hassle but if you are planing on tinting it your self you should be in good shape I would think.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I wonder if ordering SW, or any other paint through amazon, would work out OK.


A number of years ago I did a job where the paint (from Rhoda - a regional company), a bedspread, curtains, and pillows all came together, color coordinated. It was all for a little girl’s bedroom. It seemed to be decent paint and there was plenty of it so it worked out fine. That was a one and only of that type for me.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> so is having one place to buy a product a good idea? Is having one mega company all over the world going to be a good thing? A lot of history says it is a terrible thing. It leads to lower quality, higher prices, and a general lack of service. I have seen this get worse and worse. The current state we are in is one of the last phases of getting to only two paint manufacturers. SW and PPG. And how long do you think PPG would hold on when it gets to only those two? 5 years? Maybe 10? What happens when there is only SW? It may get to that point in 20 years or so. It is a very scary probability to those of us that have been in the paint industry for a long time. You don't have any concept of how it will effect your business. You will become 100% applicators. Absolutely nothing to differentiate between yo and any other applicator, other that the speed you apply the product. You will be paying god knows how much for what by that time will be Promar 700 quality paint. $400-500 a gallon is a real possibility in the next 30-40 years. There will be higher quality paints, but they will be out of the budget of all but the very richest consumers. I suggest reading a book called "the Rise and Fall of General Motors." as it spells out very well the potential for disaster the lack of competition can create. And we are startlingly close to that reality.


SW will not take out PPG. PPG is the biggest paint company in the world and still growing. They are just a little less concerned with homeowner paint, and more focused on commercial, and industrial, so they dont advertise. 

Honestly, I had no idea there was a PPG close to me, until one day I went into the BM store a block from my house, to get some new whites, and they dont sell them, so the guy gave me directions to the PPG a couple miles down the road, and the paint rep happened to be there, and came up to me, and he set me up an account and beat everyones prices by a longshot, and gives me great customer service. So, BM doesnt get much business from me anymore, all because they dont sell pants.... and the Rep there never gave enough of a shart to sit down and discuss prices with me. A gallon of BIN at BM cost me $40, and its $26 at PPG. Its a no brainer who Im gonna use. They actually did come down with their prices, but I keep asking them so send email me a list of prices, and I get crickets.


Theres an SW a block from me too. Thats where I buy stuff on weekends if Im desperate...


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't remember when I read it but it wasn't that long ago that the largest paint company in the world is actually based in India.Maybe not in number of stores but in volume of product.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I could see Amazon having a line of top quality paint in several sheens in a set range of colors, sort of a stock color selection like most brick and mortar stores used to do. If the price was right, and they offered free two day shipping through Prime, it might be a good deal to offer to clients. The downsides might be the limited color range and needing to wait two days for more product - but both issues could be dealt with IMO.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

kmp said:


> I don't remember when I read it but it wasn't that long ago that the largest paint company in the world is actually based in India.Maybe not in number of stores but in volume of product.


PPG #1, Sherwin #3, and the first Indian company is #10 This is by money made, not volume though. 

https://www.pcimag.com/articles/100808-global-top-10-and-the-pci-25


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> So why are painters drawn to SW like moths to a security light? I sell Purdy cheaper then SW even when they give a 20% contractor discount. And almost everything else i sell is cheaper than them. They OWN Purdy and i sell Purdy at RETAIL cheaper than they do with a contractors 20% discount! Honest to god, i give a 10% contractor discount on a price that is already cheaper than them, and i have pretty much quit carrying Purdy because it doesn't sell. Explain that to me. Their retail price on a microfiber 9x3/8 cover is over $6.00, and i retail that same cover for $4.79 and give a contractor discount of 10%. 20% off $6.00 is $4.80! And i'll gladly sell that cover to a painter for $4.25 and still make a nice profit off of it. Yet the painters around here swarm SW every morning!


Painters are still using Purdy's? :vs_laugh:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

According to the above article, Valspar is the 6th largest coatings manufacturer. I thought Sherwin-Williams bought them out last year or did the deal fall through?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I could see Amazon having a line of top quality paint in several sheens in a set range of colors, sort of a stock color selection like most brick and mortar stores used to do. If the price was right, and they offered free two day shipping through Prime, it might be a good deal to offer to clients. The downsides might be the limited color range and needing to wait two days for more product - but both issues could be dealt with IMO.


What a beautiful logistics arrangement! Order and have delivered everything needed for a job. The use of web based technology alone would impress the snobiest of tech nerds using a classic home service for the first time.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Honestly, I had no idea there was a PPG close to me, until one day I went into the BM store a block from my house, to get some new whites, and they dont sell them, so the guy gave me directions to the PPG a couple miles down the road, and the paint rep happened to be there, and came up to me, and he set me up an account and beat everyones prices by a longshot, and gives me great customer service. So, BM doesnt get much business from me anymore, all because they dont sell pants.... and the Rep there never gave enough of a shart to sit down and discuss prices with me. A gallon of BIN at BM cost me $40, and its $26 at PPG. Its a no brainer who Im gonna use. They actually did come down with their prices, but I keep asking them so send email me a list of prices, and I get crickets.
> 
> 
> Theres an SW a block from me too. Thats where I buy stuff on weekends if Im desperate...


Just to add to this, a gallon of BIN cost me $36. Your BM guys have a really small markup on that. Not sure how your ppg store is selling it for less than my whole sale cost... MSRP is $51.95


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

RH said:


> I could see Amazon having a line of top quality paint in several sheens in a set range of colors, sort of a stock color selection like most brick and mortar stores used to do. If the price was right, and they offered free two day shipping through Prime, it might be a good deal to offer to clients. The downsides might be the limited color range and needing to wait two days for more product - but both issues could be dealt with IMO.


Well at this time the high-quality paints available on Amazon appear to be Kilz Tribute, Diamond Brite and this gem of a paint http://prestigepaints.com/ 

Word on the street is better order early before they run out.:vs_laugh:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The only problem with dealing with the smaller independent stores is the one that I'm experiencing today. Went in to get a few gallons of Regal to start the job I'm supposed to be starting tomorrow morning. Somebody was in there earlier this morning and bought up 20 gallons of the particular base I need and now they're sold out. Won't be getting any more in until 'some time' Tuesday afternoon.

Customer didn't want to drop down to Ben and didn't want to bump up to Aura. So now the jobs getting pushed back two days. It rarely happens, but this is how smaller inventories can really screw a guy up.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> The only problem with dealing with the smaller independent stores is the one that I'm experiencing today. Went in to get a few gallons of Regal to start the job I'm supposed to be starting tomorrow morning. Somebody was in there earlier this morning and bought up 20 gallons of the particular base I need and now they're sold out. Won't be getting any more in until 'some time' Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> Customer didn't want to drop down to Ben and didn't want to bump up to Aura. So now the jobs getting pushed back two days. It rarely happens, but this is how smaller inventories can really screw a guy up.


I deal with this all the time. Get with your paint dealer a few days in advance and let them know your planning on needing a certain amount of paint. This let's me order in extra and set some aside. Once I had a HO who came in on a Thursday afternoon. Wanted 50Gallons regal matte 1X by the weekend. All my shipments are 2 days from Aura, CO. If she had let me know by Wednesday morning it would have been no problem. Instead I drove 200 miles that night to do a dealer transfer in order to not lose a sale to Sherwin.

If I was out of regal and you needed some next day I sure as hell would make sure to locate some and probably deliver it to your job site.

Btw when they say 'some time' paint is delivered by a third party freight company. We have no control on when they show up.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brushman4 said:


> Well at this time the high-quality paints available on Amazon appear to be Kilz Tribute, Diamond Brite and this gem of a paint http://prestigepaints.com/
> 
> Word on the street is better order early before they run out.:vs_laugh:


I’ve never bothered to check but it sort of makes sense. But if
Amazon ever decides to consider the type of set up I’ve described, and went with an outfit like BM or California Paints (never used CP myself, not available, but from what I hear it is a good line) then watch out. Quality at a good price coupled with Amazon service could be a powerful combo.

I have a neighbor who is way up there in their head marketing department (commutes weekly via his own plane). Maybe I’ll mention it to him.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I deal with this all the time. Get with your paint dealer a few days in advance and let them know your planning on needing a certain amount of paint. This let's me order in extra and set some aside. Once I had a HO who came in on a Thursday afternoon. Wanted 50Gallons regal matte 1X by the weekend. All my shipments are 2 days from Aura, CO. If she had let me know by Wednesday morning it would have been no problem. Instead I drove 200 miles that night to do a dealer transfer in order to not lose a sale to Sherwin.
> 
> If I was out of regal and you needed some next day I sure as hell would make sure to locate some and probably deliver it to your job site.
> 
> Btw when they say 'some time' paint is delivered by a third party freight company. We have no control on when they show up.


Wow that's some great customer service, driving 200 miles to get customer's paint. Not something big boys would ever do for their clients.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Haris said:


> Wow that's some great customer service, driving 200 miles to get customer's paint. Not something big boys would ever do for their clients.


It's easy to justify. 50 gallon sale to me or let it go to Sherwin. that's an easy choice anyway you look at it. Had to do the same thing when a HO needed 20 gallons deep blue aura exterior. I had the paint but not enough colorant. 100miles to pickup 2 gallons of blue gennex.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Brushman4 said:


> According to the above article, Valspar is the 6th largest coatings manufacturer. I thought Sherwin-Williams bought them out last year or did the deal fall through?


That article is a couple years old.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Just to add to this, a gallon of BIN cost me $36. Your BM guys have a really small markup on that. Not sure how your ppg store is selling it for less than my whole sale cost... MSRP is $51.95


I dont know, but they sell it to me for $26


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> It's easy to justify. 50 gallon sale to me or let it go to Sherwin. that's an easy choice anyway you look at it. Had to do the same thing when a HO needed 20 gallons deep blue aura exterior. I had the paint but not enough colorant. 100miles to pickup 2 gallons of blue gennex.


I realize you have to do what you gotta do to survive but that's some impressive customer service, not sure very many store owners are prepared to go to those lengths to earn some business. If I knew an independent small store owner was prepared to go that far to earn my business I would give them a lot more of my business based on that fact alone.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> That article is a couple years old.


I didn't see the date, sorry.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Haris said:


> I realize you have to do what you gotta do to survive but that's some impressive customer service, not sure very many store owners are prepared to go to those lengths to earn some business. If I knew an independent small store owner was prepared to go that far to earn my business I would give them a lot more of my business based on that fact alone.


The way I see it this wasn't just a one time sale. This HO is way more likely to become a repeat customer along with any friends/family. Same goes for any contractors I deal with. I listen to feed back and I will carry other products upon request even if I have to order them direct (which is a PIA). I am the only guy who carries a good assortment of 14-18in rollers and wooster bucket/tray liners.

For my contractors one example I have recently. Its sort of near the end of the exterior season here in MT so I am trying to wind down on ordering ext products. Painter tells me he will have a job in the coming weeks for 10-15 Gallons Arborcoat 640. He has a pretty good rapport with me, I order in 20 Gallons and set aside 15 for him. Everyone is happy.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I deal with this all the time. Get with your paint dealer a few days in advance and let them know your planning on needing a certain amount of paint. This let's me order in extra and set some aside. Once I had a HO who came in on a Thursday afternoon. Wanted 50Gallons regal matte 1X by the weekend. All my shipments are 2 days from Aura, CO. If she had let me know by Wednesday morning it would have been no problem. Instead I drove 200 miles that night to do a dealer transfer in order to not lose a sale to Sherwin.
> 
> If I was out of regal and you needed some next day I sure as hell would make sure to locate some and probably deliver it to your job site.
> 
> Btw when they say 'some time' paint is delivered by a third party freight company. We have no control on when they show up.


That's bad enough, but i have to drive to AKRON to get paint when i am short! I'd take a 200 mile drive in Montana over a 50 mile drive to Akron any day. The store i get it from and the owner are awesome, but Akron? Downtown Akron?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> It's easy to justify. 50 gallon sale to me or let it go to Sherwin. that's an easy choice anyway you look at it. Had to do the same thing when a HO needed 20 gallons deep blue aura exterior. I had the paint but not enough colorant. 100miles to pickup 2 gallons of blue gennex.


This and it is actually cheaper to drive 200 miles than to pay freight if you can't make a freight prepaid order. It costs me minimum of $75 Freight for less that a 60 gallon order, which certain times of the year may take a week or two to make up.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

These point you are all making are very valid and true, and it can be very difficult for a small independent to be able to maintain an inventory. It is a cost issue more than anything else. Not many people will be able or willing to put that kind of money into inventory that may sit for years or actually never be sold and have to be disposed of. Paint store inventory is a big gamble so to speak. Without input from customers or a sale record it is extremely difficult to have all the products in the quantities needed, all the time. A company like SW has many advantages in that the stores can pretty much order what they need and never really have to worry about the expenditure. It IS a concern, but it is also something that can be easily controlled by a good manager. They also have the ability to transfer product from store to store pretty quickly, and they also have the ability to return unused product back to the warehouses, although i know first hand what a pita that is! It is not easy, but it can be done. For me, it is pretty much impossible.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

On to the Amazon/Kilz thing. The Kilz Tribute paint line sold on Amazon runs from $49-$56 a gallon. The Kilz paint sold by Walmart runs from $22.86-26.86. No problem. Except for one small detail. Masterchem only makes ONE paint grade under the Kilz label! It is the exact same product line! Amazon only charges twice as much. Why? They have to cover all the costs associated with shipping and any return issues in advance. So while they SAY shipping is free, the consumer actually pays for it in the retail price. 

Another BIG issue with buying paint online, COLORS! People will be choosing colors from their computer monitors or a I-pad screen. And NONE of them accurately reproduce colors! There are just too many variables with color reproduction on a screen of any sort. Even down to the personnel adjustments on the consumers computer or pad. So a customer will find the perfect match to little Billie's bed spread on their i-pad. They order that color, and get an actual paint color that isn't close to what was on the screen! What happens then? At a brick and mortar paint store, that isn't a REAL big issue! But imagine, having to have a consumer repackage that paint and send it back, or that customer having to try to find someone to correct the color for them locally. This has already become an issue with me, and there is no way in hell I'm going to assume all the liability of a paint bought from someone else to re-tint it! That is a quick trip to the poor house! Online paint "stores" simply cannot give ANY kind of actual service for the paint that they sell. Even if a customer buys a brand that i carry online, which you can do with the P&L products, i am under no obligation to tint those products or return them. Not going to happen without a substantial $$$$$ agreement between myself and P&L!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Back to the proper content;
I hate when we have a new batch of pumpkin spice shine to drink and my head feels like i've been lobotomized several times this past weekend. Damn that stuff was GOOD! Never had it before. Except for the ice pick in my eyes feeling it was some dang good stuff!


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PACman said:


> so is having one place to buy a product a good idea? Is having one mega company all over the world going to be a good thing? A lot of history says it is a terrible thing. It leads to lower quality, higher prices, and a general lack of service. I have seen this get worse and worse. The current state we are in is one of the last phases of getting to only two paint manufacturers. SW and PPG. And how long do you think PPG would hold on when it gets to only those two? 5 years? Maybe 10? What happens when there is only SW? It may get to that point in 20 years or so. It is a very scary probability to those of us that have been in the paint industry for a long time. You don't have any concept of how it will effect your business. You will become 100% applicators. Absolutely nothing to differentiate between yo and any other applicator, other that the speed you apply the product. You will be paying god knows how much for what by that time will be Promar 700 quality paint. $400-500 a gallon is a real possibility in the next 30-40 years. There will be higher quality paints, but they will be out of the budget of all but the very richest consumers. I suggest reading a book called "the Rise and Fall of General Motors." as it spells out very well the potential for disaster the lack of competition can create. And we are startlingly close to that reality.


Monopolies are never good for anyone except for upper management. But, this is the way things have been trending in this country for the last 40 years. it all started with a certain leader whose initials were RWR! Just look at the conglomeration of communications (media), food, transportation, healthcare and many more sectors, all to the detriment of the consumer. Will America wake up to this before it's too late to do anything? I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PACman said:


> Back to the proper content;
> I hate when we have a new batch of pumpkin spice shine to drink and my head feels like i've been lobotomized several times this past weekend. Damn that stuff was GOOD! Never had it before. Except for the ice pick in my eyes feeling it was some dang good stuff!


Have a little bit of the hair of the dog that bit you.:biggrin:


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

PACman said:


> That's bad enough, but i have to drive to AKRON to get paint when i am short! I'd take a 200 mile drive in Montana over a 50 mile drive to Akron any day. The store i get it from and the owner are awesome, but Akron? Downtown Akron?


I'm with you on the Akron thing, PACman. I actually take route 21 if I'm going North towards Cleveland just to avoid that nasty, ugly cityscape of Akron OH. I used to pick up leaflets from a printing company near the U of A and dreaded each and every trip I had to make there. It was close to the U of A and Akron-Central Hower high school. Not exactly East LA, but, sometimes close........


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> I'm with you on the Akron thing, PACman. I actually take route 21 if I'm going North towards Cleveland just to avoid that nasty, ugly cityscape of Akron OH. I used to pick up leaflets from a printing company near the U of A and dreaded each and every trip I had to make there. It was close to the U of A and Akron-Central Hower high school. Not exactly East LA, but, sometimes close........


Their redoing all of the freeways downtown, and I-76 is a mess. It's like a mini "Boston" re-do from what i have heard. I have to use my GPS every time i go because something has changed, and that is a crap-shoot. The surface streets are even worse. And people can't drive there for 5hit in a handbag.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> This and it is actually cheaper to drive 200 miles than to pay freight if you can't make a freight prepaid order. It costs me minimum of $75 Freight for less that a 60 gallon order, which certain times of the year may take a week or two to make up.


Its not too bad taking an evening summer road trip, speed limit is 80 here too 

With BM at least the the prepaid minimum is pro rated so for a 50 gallon order it wouldn't be the full freight charge closer to 10$. Even then if someone paid me to order 40 Gallons I would take that opportunity to grow the inventory. Order 60 to get to the minimum, not like I won't sell them.


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