# Primer for New Drywall



## czego82

I used SW Lexon with SW Emerald on Exterior. Very happy with it. Now moving on to interior new dry wall paint. Drywall is not smooth finish, it has very light texture to it. Thinking of going to BM Aura for interior paint but not sure on primer. Can anyone recommend what to use for Primer and why? Thank you


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## ThreeSistersPainting

I mostly use Sherwin Williams PVA primer for new drywall and texture. Usually spray and backroll but could always cut and roll. It does a real good job of filling all those new texture micro holes. Also does a real good job softening the look of the texture, makes it look more natural. 

Kilz water base is also a great alternative that i've used on new texture on a previously painted wall.


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## PNW Painter

I've had excellent results with Zinsser Bulls Eye 1,2,3 on orange peel and level 4 drywall. It does a great job of sealing the drywall and the sheen is close to an eggshell when it dries.

If you're dealing with high ceilings or you want as much open time as possible I'd use Zinsser Gardz. It's the best at sealing the drywall, but it's a little messy to work with because it's so thin.


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## PRC

Ppg 6-4900


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## woodcoyote

Depends. Are you spraying it or just rolling it? I switch primers based on application methods also.


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## futtyos

*Gardz for me*

My favorite so far is 2 coats of Gardz, especially when top coating with eggshell or higher sheen. At some point I would be curious to try Gardz on new drywall BEFORE taping and mudding is done to see if the finish is any better. 

If you have never painted over 2 coats of Gardz on new drywall you should try it out before thinking that its a waste of time. And as far as its being sloppy to use, once you get the hang of rolling it you shouldn't have any problems. The first coat takes time as it is soaking into the drywall. The 2nd coat is much faster and is done to even out the sheen to prevent flashing. Directions are right there on the can.

futtyos


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

PRC said:


> Ppg 6-4900


Is that the Zero VOC version of PPG 6-2?


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## getrex

futtyos said:


> My favorite so far is 2 coats of Gardz, especially when top coating with eggshell or higher sheen. At some point I would be curious to try Gardz on new drywall BEFORE taping and mudding is done to see if the finish is any better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have never painted over 2 coats of Gardz on new drywall you should try it out before thinking that its a waste of time. And as far as its being sloppy to use, once you get the hang of rolling it you shouldn't have any problems. The first coat takes time as it is soaking into the drywall. The 2nd coat is much faster and is done to even out the sheen to prevent flashing. Directions are right there on the can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> futtyos




That sounds like an interesting method.


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## Delta Painting

2 coats of Gards seems like over kill..


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## PRC

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Is that the Zero VOC version of PPG 6-2?


I believe so. It's speedhide zero


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## chrisn

Delta Painting said:


> 2 coats of Gards seems like over kill..


I agree, one full coat is all I have ever used. Hint, throw in some 123 to give it some color to see what your doing.


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## Gymschu

Why is Gardz so hard to find? Menard's is the only place I've ever been able to find it and that's an 80 mile round trip for me...........

I'll say, I'm always looking for the BEST drywall priming procedure.......anything to make those top coats pop.


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## Jerr

You can overkill a primer coat and be screwed on toouch ups. PVA primer is always best.


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## czego82

woodcoyote said:


> Depends. Are you spraying it or just rolling it? I switch primers based on application methods also.


Rolling it on


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## futtyos

*Do you want to experiment?*



Delta Painting said:


> 2 coats of Gards seems like over kill..


Why would you say that 2 coats would seem like over kill? The directions say:

GARDZ appears milky blue-white during the application
but dries water clear. Properly sealed surfaces should
have a uniform sheen. Reapply to areas that have been
missed or lack sufficient coating. 

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

If you can 1-coat the Gardz, great, but if you see flashing, then you need to apply a second coat over the dull areas. The second coat goes so fast I do not try to just 2nd coat the areas that are flashing. If you can get away with one fully worked in coat, it might work, especially under flat paint. If you are going eggshell or higher sheen, 2 coats will ensure a uniform finish.

The reason I use Gardz is because I got tired of experimenting to see what the least amount of prep would work. If others want to experiment, that is up to them.

futtyos


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## chrisn

Jerr said:


> You can overkill a primer coat and be screwed on toouch ups. PVA primer is always best.


 
Please explain both of these comments, especially pva being the best. I will make the popcorn for everyone


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## CApainter

I lean towards Zinsser 123, but still think PVA sealer is a best practice until the industry standards say otherwise.

I do think the Zinsser Drywall Primer is pretty good, but will require two coats of any finish with a sheen.


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## Jerr

chrisn said:


> Please explain both of these comments, especially pva being the best. I will make the popcorn for everyone


Poly Vinyl Acetate is a primer that you can use on fresh drywall and fresh mud only. It not only seals the surface, it provides a more receptive base for the paint than other primers. PVA primers contains the same adhesive that makes carpenter's glue effective.PVA make a great foundation for top coats and I would only use it for new drywall. I like pop corn


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## getrex

I hate popcorn. Just saying.


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## SemiproJohn

Regarding the use of PVA primer versus 1,2,3, Guardz, other primers, or no primer at all, does anyone remember the name of the thread where this was discussed in detail? I think it was late last year. I remember Aura being mentioned as a solid two coat system over bare drywall. I know I mentioned a particular job where I had problems because I used PVA instead of Bullsye, my preferred primer for this application. I know Pacman commented. I would like to revisit that thread, and it might be beneficial to others, or at least entertaining!


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## RH

woodcoyote said:


> Depends. Are you spraying it or just rolling it? I switch primers based on application methods also.


Yep, there are always a lot of "depends" for me when choosing drywall primers. On the other hand, maybe that's an age issue. :whistling2:


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## SemiproJohn

This isn't the thread I was thinking about, but it has some opinions from respected members.

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/drywall-primers-33818/


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## Jerr

I think painters confuse plaster with drywall. I have used high quality primers for drywall vrs a PVA primer. I get better results from a PVA on fresh drywall. I would not use a PVA primer on patch work. PVA primers are meant for new construction or full remodels with new rock. If you have success with Bullseye then stick with what is working for you. I prefer PVA when painting fresh rock and mud.


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## PNW Painter

PVA is crap. It may equal the porosity of new drywall, but it doesn't seal worth crap. If you were to prime 1/2 a wall with 1,2,3 or Gardz and the other 1/2 PVA the paint will stay wet for much longer on the portion that was primed with 1,2,3 or Gardz. This is because those products have sealed the drywall, whereas PVA doesn't seal well.

At the end of the day your production rates for top coats will also be faster with 1,2,3 or Gardz.


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## Jerr

I disagree! I am sure those primers will preform. However I believe it is overkill using those primers. A good PVA primer coat is sufficient.


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## SemiproJohn

PNW Painter said:


> PVA is crap. It may equal the porosity of new drywall, but it doesn't seal worth crap. If you were to prime 1/2 a wall with 1,2,3 or Gardz and the other 1/2 PVA the paint will stay wet for much longer on the portion that was primed with 1,2,3 or Gardz. This is because those products have sealed the drywall, whereas PVA doesn't seal well.
> 
> At the end of the day your production rates for top coats will also be faster with 1,2,3 or Gardz.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Based upon my experience, I agree with what you just posted. I find that PVA doesn't do a good job sealing drywall, especially when a heavy knockdown texture was applied. I've had no issues when priming with 1 2 3. Based upon what I've read, I'm pretty certain Guardz would be a joy to use as a primer as it would seal better than anything else.


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## CApainter

Regardless of how and why a preferred primer appears to seal better than PVA over bare drywall/level five joint compound finish, painters continue to miss the point that PVA, or Poly vinyl acetate as Jerr points out, has the same resin properties as joint compound and therefore, is compatible in terms of ph.


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## ParamountPaint

I use PPG 6-2. No troubles.

I've also used PPG SealGrip, but it is way overkill for new DW.

SW Masterhide is the primer of choice on NC in these parts. Doubles as the ceiling paint.


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## chrisn

Jerr said:


> Poly Vinyl Acetate is a primer that you can use on fresh drywall and fresh mud only. It not only seals the surface, it provides a more receptive base for the paint than other primers. PVA primers contains the same adhesive that makes carpenter's glue effective.PVA make a great foundation for top coats and I would only use it for new drywall. I like pop corn


 
I would like to see proof of that. I understand you like it and think it's great but to state that it provides a more receptive base than other primers is pretty bold. Better than SOME maybe, but better than 123 or Gardz ,I would take exception to.


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## ParamountPaint

In my experience, damn near anything will work as long as you get the dust off. That is the number one issue you'll find.

Damp mop the dust and anything will work. Super-lightweight compounds have complicated this in this day and age. They are so fragile, if you look at them cross-wise, you'll have some problems.


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## Jerr

chrisn said:


> I would like to see proof of that. I understand you like it and think it's great but to state that it provides a more receptive base than other primers is pretty bold. Better than SOME maybe, but better than 123 or Gardz ,I would take exception to.


Those primers are overkill. I have no desire to prove myself to you or anyone else. Do what works for your systems.


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## goga

czego82 said:


> I used SW Lexon with SW Emerald on Exterior. Very happy with it.


If you are very happy with it, why bother questioning?



> Thinking of going to BM Aura for interior paint but not sure on primer. Can anyone recommend what to use for Primer and why? Thank you


Don't think, do, then figure out what is working, what is not, yet primers all about the same, they prime. They are more rosin based, which makes better bound. What is the worry about... just pick and prime.


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## futtyos

ParamountPaint said:


> In my experience, damn near anything will work as long as you get the dust off. That is the number one issue you'll find.
> 
> Damp mop the dust and anything will work. Super-lightweight compounds have complicated this in this day and age. They are so fragile, if you look at them cross-wise, you'll have some problems.


ParamountPaint, you mention a very interesting thing about new drywall, dust. I do not say that getting the majority of the dust off new drywall is a bad thing and I do that myself, but the really neat thing about Gardz (and I imagine the same for Draw-Tite and a couple of other sealers) is that it doesn't just seal the surface. It soaks through any dust remaining and goes into the drywall and saturates it because it is thin enough to do so. It is a sealer, plain and simple, no pigment to thicken it up. The dust on the surface literally becomes a part of the surface.

I would ask anyone here if they know of a better product to both seal a surface AND make dust a part of the surface so that a tape test will not even be affected by dust. I have heard that Draw-Tite is thicker than Gardz, so in this respect it might not be a good at binding the dust into the wall.

I will repeat my initial experience with Gardz. I used to strip and wax (acrylic finish) floors. The acrylic finish was milky white, smelled of banana oil and was thinner than paint. Early on in my floor refinishing days I stripped an old floor, then started applying acrylic floor finish. One coat, two coats, three coats - it wasn't covering, it was flashing. I went to my janitorial supply house and asked for help. I was told that on an old, porous floor, I needed to put down a sealer first, then the top coats would shine like the sun. I did this with the job I was having problems with and, voila! The top coats did not soak into the floor, but shined it up going over the top of the sealer.

DeArch has said here that Scotch Paint in CA took a concrete sealer and reformulated (did they, or did they just use it straight up) it for use on torn and damaged drywall, usually after stripping wallpaper. Zinsser wanted to buy the rights to Draw-Tite, but Scotch wouldn't sell, so Zinsser made their own version, Gardz.

When I first used Gardz I looked at it and thought "this looks like acrylic floor sealer." When I smelled it, I thought "this smells like acrylic floor sealer." When I used it and saw it's viscosity, I thought "this has a similar viscosity as acrylic floor sealer." 

To be fair, I have not used PVA since I misused it back ion the early 80's and had to strip it off what I was doing. PVA may very well work in the manner for which it was intended for, but I would be very surprised if it could solidify surface dust into the wall or ceiling like Gardz does, then provide a moisture barrier that lets the water in the paint wick off into the room instead of being sucked up into the surface being painted such that when you finish the wall or ceiling you started to roll, the starting point would still be wet and you would not be struggling to get roller lines smoothed out before the water in the paint gets sucked into the surface and you are left with sanding them later and recoating.

As far as super-lightweight compounds go, the GC I am currently working for uses a USG blue top that dries yellow. I can practically sand it with my eyes. I can certainly sand it with my bare hand. I like to use Gardz on this so it hardens it so it doesn't dent easily.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you haven't used Gardz for sealing drywall, you should treat yourself to the experience. You may come away feeling that it is not necessary for your line of work, but until you try it, you will not know how it works.

I guarantee that if you use 2 coats of Gardz on new drywall, you will have the best experience in putting the finish coats onto your walls or ceilings.

I have to go now. They are telling us that lights are off in 10 minutes.

futtyos


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## Jerr

A prep coat will do the same.


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## chrisn

Jerr said:


> Those primers are overkill. I have no desire to prove myself to you or anyone else. Do what works for your systems.


Whatever man. If you cannot or will not explain your comments, just don't comment


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## Rbriggs82

I think it really all comes down to what setting you're using it for. 

Run of the mill NC track homes getting cheap chit flat as a finish, PVA all day long. I think we'd all agree gardz would be overkill. In fact if that type of work was priced with gardz you'd never get it because I'll make you too expensive. 

For repaints or remodeling where the walls already have a satin type finish I'm spot priming with something like 1-2-3.

Gardz I'd consider for a custom high-end NC house getting a finish coated with good quality paint. The additional cost isn't a problem in that setting and it is by far the best drywall sealer. I'd also use gardz on a repaint that requires a full prime and is getting a satin type finish. I've tried using it for spot priming and that was a big mistake. It sealed the wall to good causing those spots to stay wet longer than everything else which resulted in flashing in certain lights. 

Any who to each there own. That's what works for me, but at the end of the day if the job looks good, your customer is happy, and you get paid it's all good.  

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## Jmayspaint

Jerr said:


> A prep coat will do the same.




What do you mean by prep coat? 

I like PVA for the adhesion insurance it provides. Being able to be confident in a good bond even if you maybe didn't get %100 of the surface dust off is certainly a plus. 

I have been disappointed with PVA for other reasons though. It doesn't seal as well as other all purpose primers like 123 do, and it can have a tendency to flash. 

I've told this story before, but a few years back I did a whole new house with SW PVA and low luster Cashmere finish coat. After a full prime sprayed and back rolled the first coat of finish was flashing horribly. You could see every seam and nail. Even a second coat wouldn't stop the flash. I posted pics at the time, they're buried in the threads somewhere. 

Got the rep and manager out to take a look, and he basically just said "well, that happens with PVA sometimes. Certain kinds of drywall mud just make it flash". They competed me the material to re-prime it, but having to do an extra coat was obviously a PITA. 

That experience as well as reading about similar experiences others have had has shied me away from PVA. 

I have to agree with others that Gardz is hard to beat. Nothing I've ever used even comes close to sealing the wall as well as it does. 


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## MurphysPaint

At $43.57 per gallon I personally might find Gardz a tricky sell for a whole home, especially if we're going to have to do two coats. I can't say that I have had any bad experiences using PVA even when top coating with Opulence (Cashmere). I would think it would be a good upgrade for walls with critical lighting or those awful ceilings I posted in another thread a few weeks back. Like everything else, it has its place.


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## Jerr

chrisn said:


> Whatever man. If you cannot or will not explain your comments, just don't comment


There is nothing to explain. Just do what works for you.


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## Jerr

Jmayspaint said:


> What do you mean by prep coat?
> 
> I like PVA for the adhesion insurance it provides. Being able to be confident in a good bond even if you maybe didn't get %100 of the surface dust off is certainly a plus.
> 
> I have been disappointed with PVA for other reasons though. It doesn't seal as well as other all purpose primers like 123 do, and it can have a tendency to flash.
> 
> I've told this story before, but a few years back I did a whole new house with SW PVA and low luster Cashmere finish coat. After a full prime sprayed and back rolled the first coat of finish was flashing horribly. You could see every seam and nail. Even a second coat wouldn't stop the flash. I posted pics at the time, they're buried in the threads somewhere.
> 
> Got the rep and manager out to take a look, and he basically just said "well, that happens with PVA sometimes. Certain kinds of drywall mud just make it flash". They competed me the material to re-prime it, but having to do an extra coat was obviously a PITA.
> 
> That experience as well as reading about similar experiences others have had has shied me away from PVA.
> 
> I have to agree with others that Gardz is hard to beat. Nothing I've ever used even comes close to sealing the wall as well as it does.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Prep Coat is a drywall primer that evens the surface from mud to the paper on the rock. It improve the overall quality of the drywall finish. Prep coat itself is not a “sealer”, but some primers like Sherwin Williams Preprite has prep coat properties in it. Prep coat re-wets the mud dust causing it to level out.


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## Jerr

MurphysPaint said:


> At $43.57 per gallon I personally might find Gardz a tricky sell for a whole home, especially if we're going to have to do two coats. I can't say that I have had any bad experiences using PVA even when top coating with Opulence (Cashmere). I would think it would be a good upgrade for walls with critical lighting or those awful ceilings I posted in another thread a few weeks back. Like everything else, it has its place.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great point Murphy!


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## Jmayspaint

MurphysPaint said:


> At $43.57 per gallon I personally might find Gardz a tricky sell for a whole home, especially if we're going to have to do two coats. I can't say that I have had any bad experiences using PVA even when top coating with Opulence (Cashmere). I would think it would be a good upgrade for walls with critical lighting or those awful ceilings I posted in another thread a few weeks back. Like everything else, it has its place.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Dang, everything's expensive in Canada. Gardz is about the same price as 123 or Coverstain here. Around $20.


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## Jmayspaint

Of course if cost is the main factor, it's Really hard to beat PVA. I see it on sale every now and then for less than $60 a five. 


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## Wildbill7145

Jmayspaint said:


> Dang, everything's expensive in Canada. Gardz is about the same price as 123 or Coverstain here. Around $20.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Holy crap. 123 where I get it goes for $35/gal. I actually remember paying around $27/gal, but that was 14 years ago!


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## SemiproJohn

I can get 123 for around 16 dollars a gallon. Guardz is in the mid 40's.


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## Jmayspaint

Wildbill7145 said:


> Holy crap. 123 where I get it goes for $35/gal. I actually remember paying around $27/gal, but that was 14 years ago!




I remembered you and PacMan (I think) talking about the big cost difference of 123 in different areas a couple weeks ago while walking through HD. 

I snapped a pic of the two gallon buckets of 123 for $29.98.


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## SemiproJohn

HD has some merits, and the availability and rather inexpensive pricing on Zinsser products is one of them.


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## Wildbill7145

SemiproJohn said:


> HD has some merits, and the availability and rather inexpensive pricing on Zinsser products is one of them.


That's one of the reasons I used to get 123 at HD, but over the years their pricing on it just kept going up. At this point they're actually selling it for more than what I can get it for at my local paint shop. $40/gal.

Never seen it in 2gal buckets before. That'd be handy.


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## Jmayspaint

SemiproJohn said:


> HD has some merits, and the availability and rather inexpensive pricing on Zinsser products is one of them.




Yeah. A little further left of that picture was the 5 gallon buckets of Coverstain for $79. 


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## MurphysPaint

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.zinsser-gardz-primer-sealer--36l.1000833047.html

FYI 3.6L is about one gallon 


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## futtyos

*What does "Best primer for drywall" mean?*

I have read and re-read most of the comments here about what people think is the "best" drywall primer out there and I would have to ask the following:

Is this question regarding the best primer in a technical sense or in a pragmatic and practical sense?

I, as well as others here, have been unable to convince Jerr that Gardz is better than PVA. Jerr may have been using a particular brand of PVA for a lot of NC and has had great success with it. I would imagine that PVA is certainly cheaper than Gardz (especially if I lived in Canada or Florida!) and can do most of what it is used for doing, to get a paint job done fast and efficiently enough to make the job worth doing or to remain among the competition as far as bids go.

There is no doubt that using Gardz is more costly and time consuming than using PVA, at least if nothing goes wrong with the PVA - that it makes the surfaces uniform and takes the top coats of paint adequately and no flashing occurs. If that has been one's experience using PVA, then why switch?

I personally have not used PVA for new drywall work. As I mentioned before, on one of my first paint jobs, I scraped paint off the top half of bathroom walls (bottom was tiled) in a building that was built at the end of the 19th century, so it was plaster. I thought I would get PVA and paint over it. The PVA started peeling almost immediately. I had to remove every square inch of it and have never used PVA again. Maybe not a good reason as I used it over a surface it was not intended to be used on, but there it is.

I have seen people here mentioning Gardz and 123 together as if they were comparable. In doing new remodeling work painting for a contractor in hi rise in Chicago, I was able to get him to go from Kilz 2 on new drywall and skim coated plaster to using 123, and I am happy about that, but even the 123 does not pass the tape test. He put yellow frog tape on my paint-over-123-job next to his shower tile work to grout or some such thing, and when the frog tape came off, so did the paint and 123. While I have not done the tape test with Gardz, I have to think that if a 1st coat of Gardz had been applied, at least on areas that might end up being taped, that this would not have happened. If the area had been Gardzed, then extra time would not have to be taken to correct this problem.

If I was bidding a job on NC drywall along with a number of others and did not use the most cost effective method for my bid, I might not get the work.

There are a lot of variables as far as what the "best drywall primer" is. From just a technical sense, the best new drywall primer I have used is not a primer, it is a sealer, 2 coats of Gardz. I cannot personally say that this works better than PVA, but, based on many comments from others here who have had experience using both, I will wait for the job where PVA is spec'd and I am just working by the hour.

What I like about Gardz on new drywall is that you only get one opportunity to put something on the drywall first. Everything else that goes on is going over what is put on first. I would be very surprised if there was any primer that soaks into new drywall and whatever dust is still on it, and solidifies everything down to the gypsum and possibly into that as well.

Using Gardz for a whole job may not be cost effective, but not using it on ceilings or walls that will get direct light that shows every little imperfection might be a mistake. That may be only 1 or 2 ceilings and maybe 1 to 3 walls in a whole house, but it just might save your f_nny.

Is Gardz (or any other material) the best primer for drywall? I guess it depends on why the question is being asked.

futtyos


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## futtyos

*Best drywall primer for what purpose?*



czego82 said:


> I used SW Lexon with SW Emerald on Exterior. Very happy with it. Now moving on to interior new dry wall paint. Drywall is not smooth finish, it has very light texture to it. Thinking of going to BM Aura for interior paint but not sure on primer. Can anyone recommend what to use for Primer and why? Thank you


czego82, I take it that you are the OP of this poll. Am I correct? If so, would you say that your question regarding what the best primer for drywall is has to do with which primer will make the drywall smoothest?

Or better yet, is your question really "how do I even the texture out on new drywall between the paper on the drywall and the mud?"

If this is actually the case, wouldn't we be talking about the level of finish on the wall and not what primer is best?

Could you clarify and restate your problem and what you are trying to accomplish. It sounds to me like you may be getting a lot of answers to a wrong or uncertainly understood (at least by me) question.

For example, if your concern is about evening the texture between the paper and the mud, why don't you skim coat the paper with the same mud, sand everything, then whatever you put on top will be going over all mud? Or are you trying to find a primer that will help you avoid doing a skim coat?

As I have said, could you be a little more clear on just what you are trying to accomplish?

futtyos


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## woodcoyote

I'm not going to jump into the mix with PVA and what primer is good, better, best. 

But I will say this, since I just scanned the thread and didn't see it come up:

When spraying NC (new construction), we almost exclusively use Hi-Bild or Hi-Build primer from Sherwin. It doesn't roll good at all and I wouldn't even want to try and roll it if I had to. But spraying...nothing like it. Thick stuff, meant to cover up drywall sanding scratches, level things out some, etc. Does a great job and when we're done most people think it's the paint, but it isn't. 

For rolling applications I'd say PVA or whatever will kill porosity. If it's a small wall or two, I like to use the multi-purpose primer (since we carry it around all the time and it's on hand). Same with patches, hit with multi, then top coat or 2 coat, depending on the situation, done. 

Anyway, just wanted to throw the Hi-Build out there, since it's our go-to product when doing NC.


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## ParamountPaint

I'm just getting around to checking on things here, so bear with me.

I am in full agreement that Gardz is great. But 2 coats of Gardz on a typical NC project costs more than the finish coats. As I mentioned above, SW Masterhide is the go to on NC here. I myself, being a minor rebel, prefer the PPG 6-2, but then we have to add an extra step of top coating ceilings.

Adding an extra coat of primer (and expensive primer, at that), won't be very budget friendly. Furthermore, if a primer is so great, why does it need two coats? The regular stuff seems to work fine 90+% of the time with one coat, so what is the point?

I don't use PVA, so I don't have any convictions about that one way or the other.

There is a time and place for everything. I try not to use a sledgehammer everywhere when a tack hammer will do. On a remodel, I tend towards the best products available: 1) the owners are paying out of pocket and 2) they probably are thinking of sticking around to enjoy it. (owner occupied homes).

NC is the wild west and demographics say that most homeowners will move in 5-7, custom homes notwithstanding.


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## goga

woodcoyote said:


> When spraying NC (new construction), we almost exclusively use Hi-Bild or Hi-Build primer from Sherwin. It doesn't roll good at all and I wouldn't even want to try and roll it if I had to. But spraying...nothing like it. Thick stuff, meant to cover up drywall sanding scratches, level things out some, etc. Does a great job and when we're done most people think it's the paint, but it isn't.
> 
> For rolling applications I'd say PVA or whatever will kill porosity. If it's a small wall or two, I like to use the multi-purpose primer (since we carry it around all the time and it's on hand). Same with patches, hit with multi, then top coat or 2 coat, depending on the situation, done.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to throw the Hi-Build out there, since it's our go-to product when doing NC.


To mention Hi-Build primer, I'm using same called thing from Miller on most of badly painted repaints with high porousness, new texture and such, sprays like rubber, but hardens like concrete, and it is less than 50 bux a bucket. 

One more primer I'd use on new texture is Roseal from Rodda. Very good uniform film and grabability. Backroll it thick to seal the surface, spray the paint one coat on top of it, solid uniform look at any angle at any light position. 

123 is used exclusively on patches and pretexture. 

To mention Frog tape.. from everything I've tried, AllPro Titanium and PG5 tape is the best on fresh paints if pulled when paint is still wet, it falls off by itself. No tape had worked better, even on yesterday's paints. Usually spraying walls today, tape them off tomorrow with PG5, plastic on top of it, spray, it falls off like it is on oil.


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## thinkpainting/nick

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Is that the Zero VOC version of PPG 6-2?


25 years ago there was no better system than 6-2 and 6-411 egg for topcoat. Unfortunately we can't get PPG easily around these parts anymore.


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## CApainter

I think people are confusing PVA with a primer and not as a sealer as it's intended to be. Once again, PVA is compatible with bare joint compound. It is designed to chemically bond with joint compound and drywall. Gardz is designed for messed up drywall. Claiming Gardz to be a replacement for a compatible sealer on bare joint compound, is hillbilly chemistry at best.

I mean sure, a banana cream pie would cover better than Glidden's PVA, but is it chemically compatible? We tend to overlook the functionality for the aesthetics. A bucket of clear nail polish would provide a hard impermeable surface over joint compound, but is it really compatible?


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## futtyos

*PVA vs Gardz*



CApainter said:


> I think people are confusing PVA with a primer and not as a sealer as it's intended to be. Once again, PVA is compatible with bare joint compound. It is designed to chemically bond with joint compound and drywall. Gardz is designed for messed up drywall. Claiming Gardz to be a replacement for a compatible sealer on bare joint compound, is hillbilly chemistry at best.
> 
> I mean sure, a banana cream pie would cover better than Glidden's PVA, but is it chemically compatible? We tend to overlook the functionality for the aesthetics. A bucket of clear nail polish would provide a hard impermeable surface over joint compound, but is it really compatible?


CApainter, have you ever rolled paint on new drywall that has been sealed with Gardz? If so, what sheens of paint have you used over Gardz?

futtyos


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## CApainter

futtyos said:


> CApainter, have you ever rolled paint on walls that have been sealed with Gardz? If so, what sheens of paint have you used over Gardz?
> 
> futtyos


I've used BM Regal Pearl over bare joint compound with a level five finish sealed with GARDZ. No doubt the GARDZ gives a superior foundation for paints that have a sheen. But so would a coat of shellac or polyurethane, albeit a lot more smelly than GARDZ and likely a lot less compatible with bare joint compound.

The point I'm trying to make is about compatibility rather than aesthetics. And frankly, painting is driven by aesthetics in the short term rather than compatibility or long term performance. We see this exampled in the preferred application of thin coats of paint in an effort to mitigate roller stipple, despite compromising the recommended DFT. We also see it in high solid all purpose primers that cover better than thinner coat sealers despite a sealer being more chemically compatible with the substrate.

So until the industry replaces PVA sealer with something else as a best practice over bare joint compound, GARDZ is merely a preference rather than a standard in my opinion, albeit a wonderful preference!


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## futtyos

*Question of OP*



CApainter said:


> I've used BM Regal Pearl over bare joint compound with a level five finish sealed with GARDZ. No doubt the GARDZ gives a superior foundation for paints that have a sheen. But so would a coat of shellac or polyurethane, albeit a lot more smelly than GARDZ and likely a lot less compatible with bare joint compound.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is about compatibility rather than aesthetics. And frankly, painting is driven by aesthetics in the short term rather than compatibility or long term performance. We see this exampled in the preferred application of thin coats of paint in an effort to mitigate roller stipple, despite compromising the recommended DFT. We also see it in high solid all purpose primers that cover better than thinner coat sealers despite a sealer being more chemically compatible with the substrate.
> 
> So until the industry replaces PVA sealer with something else as a best practice over bare joint compound, GARDZ is merely a preference rather than a standard in my opinion, albeit a wonderful preference!


Here is the original post following the OP's poll asking what we all here think is the best primer for new drywall and mud:

"czego82
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Default Primer for New Drywall
I used SW Lexon with SW Emerald on Exterior. Very happy with it. Now moving on to interior new dry wall paint. Drywall is not smooth finish, it has very light texture to it. Thinking of going to BM Aura for interior paint but not sure on primer. Can anyone recommend what to use for Primer and why? Thank you"

In my post #52 I asked the original poster czego82 what the main purpose of his poll was as he seemed to indicate that he anticipated problems with the texture of the drywall paper vs the mud. I am still waiting for his clarification.

That being said, I did find your post #57 interesting enough to respond to. Personally, I have zero experience applying PVA to new drywall, but from what I have read about PVA both here in Paint Talk and elswhere, I am not in a hurry to try it out. Perhaps if I get a job where PVA is spec'd for new drywall I might give it a try, but I get such good results with Gardz that I am reluctant to experiment when I know that Gardz will be cheap insurance that the job gets done and looks good. Even flat paint looks better over Gardz as many flat paints these days have a slight sheen to them

As far Gardz being less compatible with joint compound, from what I see, Gardz, being as thin as it is, soaks through the drywall, mud and any dust left on the surface, in fact glueing the dust into the wall and not sitting on top of the dust waiting for some tape to pull it off. I am not sure what the chemistry involved is with Gardz soaking into joint compound or drywall, but it appears to me that Gardz' resins are actually physically soaking into and becoming a part of the wall, probably to the point of going through the paper and soaking into the gypsum itself. I highly doubt there is any primer or sealer out there that will soak through and bond everything together as well as Gardz (maybe Draw-Tite, but that its supposed to be thicker than Gardz). I can't say for sure, but i wouldn't think that a shellac or a polyurethane would be as "wet" as Gardz is and soak in as far, but I could be wrong. Joint compound is water based, so it would only seem natural that a water based sealer would penetrate more easily into JC than an alcohol or alkyd based material would.

Just some thoughts. I am sure there are less expensive materials for sealing/priming new drywall, but if I can be convinced that there is something better than Gardz for doing so, I will say right here in PT "Spank my fanny and call me Sally!"

futtyos

P.S. - for the mods: "Spank my fanny and call me Sally" is the name of a hot sauce.


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## CApainter

Very funny!

I would welcome a product like GARDZ to be the new industry standard for bare drywall and joint compound. But until that's official, and despite all the theories of its properties and performance, PVA will win the case at the end of every day in terms of legal disputes over coating specifications or lack there of.


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## Pete Martin the Painter

I find this thread interesting. I have never used a PVA primer. This is one of those many times in the past few years that I have felt stupid when compared to all of those that have been painting much longer than me, and had a better painting eduaction before going out on their own. 
I Almost always use BM 046, or Zinsser 123 when priming drywall. After reading a thread some time back on PVA primer it seemed to me that the opinion was that is little more than a cheap primer to be used only when cost was a major issue. Had no idea that it is intended to bond with drywall and JC. I would like to try it...however
I searched both the Ben Moore and California websites and neither company seems to even make one. Theese are to two paint comapies to which I have easy access. Since neither of these comapnies seem to not make PVA and both make some of the best out there, I am wondering (or perhaps a better word is asking) are PVA primers a technology that is no longer necessary due to the quality of newer primers.

Edit...Cali does seem to make a PVA called Drywall Primer, but it is described as an "economical primer."

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


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## CApainter

I noticed the same thing Pete. Glidden was one of only a few PVA sealers that I could find. You may be right in that PVA is obsolete given the resin advancements of other primers. But I don't know if there is a general consensus on that. I would hope it would no longer be specified if it s obsolete. I need a paint Zsar to tell me PVA sealer has gone the way of calcimine paint.


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## Jerr

Why switch brands on a home?


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## Pete Martin the Painter

CApainter said:


> I noticed the same thing Pete. Glidden was one of only a few PVA sealers that I could find. You may be right in that PVA is obsolete given the resin advancements of other primers. But I don't know if there is a general consensus on that. I would hope it would no longer be specified if it s obsolete. I need a paint Zsar to tell me PVA sealer has gone the way of calcimine paint.


I was just in my Ben Moore paint store, and I asked two of the employees if BM made a PVA primer. Neither of them even knew what I was talking about. One of them is the son of the store's owners. Has been there a long time and knows his stuff....so perhaps PVA primer is somethimg past its prime and those who decide what is good practice have not realized it yet.

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## futtyos

*Best primer of legally sufficient?*



CApainter said:


> Very funny!
> 
> I would welcome a product like GARDZ to be the new industry standard for bare drywall and joint compound. But until that's official, and despite all the theories of its properties and performance, PVA will win the case at the end of every day in terms of legal disputes over coating specifications or lack there of.


CApainter, I am still not sure what the OP had in mind as far as what is the best primer for new drywall other than he mentioned that he wanted to equalize the texture between the paper and the mud.

That being said, you seem to indicate that PVA is an industry standar and mention that it might be involved in legal disputes. 

I would ask

A. Where is it written that PVA is an industry standard for new drywall, and

B. How would the use or non-use of PVA on new drywall be involved in any legal dispute other than not following through with the terms of a proposal that included or excluded the use of PVA on new drywall?

I am not trying to pin you against the wall here. I do very little NC or new drywall and so may not be familiar with writing up bids for large NC whre there is a lot of new drywall. Most of my work is repaints and helping people get their places ready for selling. I have not done any large jobs where I am bidding against a number of other contractors who all have to include certain standardized itmes in their bids ....... such as using PVA on new drywall.

You don't seem to be against using Gardz, you seem to lean towards PVA for possibly legal reasons. Can you elaborate on this and correct any of my false impressions of what you have posted?

futtyos


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## goga

Pete the Painter said:


> I searched both the Ben Moore and California websites and neither company seems to even make one.


Easily accessible nearly everywhere HD, Lowes and such have whole bunch of it. He, who had being seeking will be reworded)


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## Pete Martin the Painter

goga said:


> Easily accessible nearly everywhere HD, Lowes and such have whole bunch of it. He, who had being seeking will be reworded)


If it PVA is only easily accessible at the box stores, and many of the really good paint companies are not even bothering to make PVA primers, is this stuff little more than cheap primer and no longer necessary for drywall. As I mentioned in another post, the employees at my paint store kinda looked at me funny when I asked the if BM makes a PVA primer. Neither of them have heard of it.

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## getrex

SW sells a PVA primer. Take that as you will.


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