# adhesion test



## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

for the sake of the less learned ( me ) would one of the tenured professors kindly provide a detailed description of a "tape pull test"

i searched the topic to little avail ( likely user error )

i know i have seen it lately, but i couldnt find it again


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## oldskool (Nov 17, 2009)

Is this what you are looking for
http://www.ipc.org/ContentPage.aspx?pageid=Solder-Mask-Adhesion-Pull-Test-Tape-List

You testing the tape or paint adhesion? The above appears to be for paint adhesion.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

You need to wait for a week after the caoting is applied to test for adhesion. Take a razor blade and create and X. Apply duct tape and firmly press the tape over the X. Pull the tape and see if any of the coating comes up.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I would just use making tape, duck tape would most likely be too strong.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

do you rip the tape off, or peel the tape off


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

You need to use duct tape, you want it to see if it sicks right. You rip it, again, you want to see if it sticks. Don't be gentle!!!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I use masking tape also. Not blue painters tape, but white masking tape. Duct tape IMHO is too aggressive.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

I have all is seen refernce to masking tape.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I have all is seen refernce to masking tape.


Answer: All I have seen is reference to masking tape. Bam! I win:yes:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The following link refrences ASTM D3359 (Pull testing with tape). It also decribes an inspection incident towards the end of the article http://events.nace.org/education/inspectthis/tech_art/spring_04/Tale.asp

We use the Elcometer 106 Adhesion Tester when determining bonding strength of epoxy coatings.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I too normally use masking tape, but as noted in that article, all tapes are different and so are the cuts.

IMO, duct tape could pull the stink off sh!t and should not be used. 

I have used blue tape with success. We had a failure with blue tape and was able to agree to remediation with the painting contractor. 

A few weeks ago, we hung some plastic with blue tape, a few small spots were pulled off when we removed the plastic less than an hour later. OOOPS !


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Sometimes they didn't put enough glue in the drywall mud, and it is too powdery when they painted over it.You pull the tape off and there is a film of mud behind the paint.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Sometimes they didn't put enough glue in the drywall mud, and it is too powdery when they painted over it.You pull the tape off and there is a film of mud behind the paint.


John, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that's un-removed dust from sanding.

Wallpaper exerts a lot of lateral pressure on the walls when it dries - because paper when wet, expands. And when it dires, it shrinks. We need a very sound surface on which to install.

We, us paperhangers, are very cognizant of the importance of applying a primer to DUST FREE walls. Most painters will brush and vacuum a wall after patching and sanding. Next time, after you dust a sanded wall in your normal way, run a bare hand over the surface. Is there any dust on your hand? If so, remove the dust from the wall. Hint: vacuuming won't do it. A slightly damp rag is the best. OR, I've heard that a "Swifter" works. 

Here's another little gem. Want to make your walls so hot (high pH) that nothing will adhere well? Mix hot mud with pre-mixed joint compound. Don't laugh, many do this because they get "the best of both worlds"


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Bill; you are so right. Darn-it, it takes to much work to paint walls.


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## mistcoat (Apr 21, 2007)

daArch said:


> IMO, duct tape could pull the stink off sh!t and should not be used.


Bill, I am starting to worry!!!
I am thinking you are showing signs of some sort of Scatologial obsession/humour (above quote and link below).

POST #22 BY YOU


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

the reason I ask is after my skim coat disaster, i pressed some blue tape hard onto the finish, waited ten seconds, and ripped it off. the finish came off all the wall down to the old wallpaper paste, which was brownish grey and seemed to have the impression of the paper on it's surface.
this area was below the finish coat of paint that was present when I started


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I have all is seen refernce to masking tape.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

This thread is confusing. Some say masking tape another says duct tape. If all masking tape and duct tape adhesion were equal, this might be helpful to someone reading this thread. But they're not equal. 

So some low tack tape might pass the adhesion test but high tack might not.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Masking tape test: 

After the paint has had 7 days to cure, cut an X to the substrate with a blade. Apply a strip of white 3M masking tape to X. Press firmly, wait 10 seconds, and rip off. If any paint is removed, the adhesion test fails. 

Duct tape test: 

Wait until paint has had 10 years to cure. Cut an X down to substrate. Apply duct tape and press firmly. Wait 10 seconds and rip off. If any wall remains under tape, adhesion test has failed.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

mistcoat said:


> Bill, I am starting to worry!!!
> I am thinking you are showing signs of some sort of Scatologial obsession/humour


Shirley, you jest. OH wait a minute, it's the weekend.

MANDY, there's no bout a doubt it. I majored in scatology at Poupon U. 



bigjeffie61520 said:


> the reason I ask is after my skim coat disaster, i pressed some blue tape hard onto the finish, waited ten seconds, and ripped it off. the finish came off all the wall down to the old wallpaper paste, which was brownish grey and seemed to have the impression of the paper on it's surface.
> this area was below the finish coat of paint that was present when I started


WAIT A MINUTE ???? You didn't say anything about paste being under the paint. And CLAY paste to boot. 

Am I remembering a thread recently about paste residue not being washed before paint is applied ???

Jeffie, find the previous painter and throw him to the wolves of Paint Talk.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

*paint finish failing over skimcoat* 
these are the 1st few lines of my skimcoat post:

did a job where wallpaper was stripped and painted w/o adhesive removed ( not me )

paint looked ok but was lumpy.

did a lot of sanding to knock down the high spots. 
sealed w/ guardz


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> *paint finish failing over skimcoat*
> these are the 1st few lines of my skimcoat post:
> 
> did a job where wallpaper was stripped and painted w/o adhesive removed ( not me )
> ...


OK , you DID say it in that thread. Flog me


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> This thread is confusing. Some say masking tape another says duct tape. If all masking tape and duct tape adhesion were equal, this might be helpful to someone reading this thread. But they're not equal.
> 
> So some low tack tape might pass the adhesion test but high tack might not.


From what I have learned browsing the subject, 3M 250 tape is the standard tape for field pull testing. However, I also read that it was discontinued and 3M offers another product. According to military specs., the tape can only have a shelf life of six months.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

3M 250 flat back tape data sheet, refers to pull testing under APPLICATION USES. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTt48TVlX&XEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

OK I've beat this horse to death. Must move on...


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

CApainter said:


> 3M 250 flat back tape data sheet, refers to pull testing under APPLICATION USES. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTt48TVlX&XEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
> 
> OK I've beat this horse to death. Must move on...


Thanks CA. This thread is useless. Way too many variables and criteria that could never be met to produce any kind of meaningful result outside of lab work.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Thanks CA. This thread is useless. Way too many variables and criteria that could never be met to produce any kind of meaningful result outside of lab work.


I agree.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

One last thought. What the thread does reveal, is that if you are using tape to perform adhesion tests, the characteristics of masking tape, like 3M 250, can be used as an approximate standard. What do you think? Thanks


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> This thread is confusing. Some say masking tape another says duct tape. If all masking tape and duct tape adhesion were equal, this might be helpful to someone reading this thread. But they're not equal.
> 
> So some low tack tape might pass the adhesion test but high tack might not.





jack pauhl said:


> Thanks CA. This thread is useless. Way too many variables and criteria that could never be met to produce any kind of meaningful result outside of lab work.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with the people posting what they got to say on the matter. How would one learn if they just keeped it to themselves? This thread is not useless, it a DISCUSSION!! Maybe we should just lock the place down, make everyone sit on a cold floor in a big empty room with nothing on the walls, and then you could teach us.
Then again you might find these guys knocking at your door.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Adhesion test


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## mistcoat (Apr 21, 2007)

Now that is damn funny :thumbup:
Moreso cos the babs looks like she is enjoying herself :w00t:

Now, forgive me I must rush, just gotta ring Social Services


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

What would we do w/out duct tape?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> What would we do w/out duct tape?


Superglue john


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

well the thread shows that there doesnt seem to be a simple field test that results in conclusive results for the layman

i appreciate the input of all parties


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I use contact cement or gorilla glue and burlap.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

SWGuy said:


> You need to use duct tape, you want it to see if it sicks right. You rip it, again, you want to see if it sticks. Don't be gentle!!!


 
Duct tape is silly. Personally I don't like the adhesion test as a true test of adhesion. 

Anyways, there is a special tape that you are supposed to use. You can buy a nice metal cross-hatch to use as a guide for your lines.

Cut a matrix of little squares and use some tape (masking is probably better than duct). Apply the tape over the matrix and press down with the eraser of a pencil or some other such object. Then you pull the tape back quickly at close to 180 degrees. 

You can choose whatever cure time you want for the test... we check all of our products at 24 hrs.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

_You can choose whatever cure time you want for the test... we check all of our products at 24 hrs.[/quote_]

You shouldn't choose whatever cure time you want. Most coatings are not even close to cure @ 24 hours. By doing it at 24 hours, you will usually get a fail. With SW industrial products, I always use duct tape. With proper cure time and surface prep, they almost always pass.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

SWGuy said:


> _You can choose whatever cure time you want for the test... we check all of our products at 24 hrs.[/quote_]
> 
> You shouldn't choose whatever cure time you want. Most coatings are not even close to cure @ 24 hours. By doing it at 24 hours, you will usually get a fail. With SW industrial products, I always use duct tape. With proper cure time and surface prep, they almost always pass.


 
You will usually get a fail? That's just flat wrong. Anyways, you just need to be consistent and comfortable with the timing of how long you want to wait for it to cure. There are so many ways to "trick" the tape test that I just don't think it's as good as it could be.

SW guy can probably easily get the procedure from his lab, but here is the proper adhesion test: http://www.astm.org/Standards/D3359.htm


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