# dealing with picky customers



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

We have been painting a large 2 story victorian home interior which was in poor condition and on completion of the job the the lady homeowner has been totally unreasonable with her expectations. She is a grumpy big bodied woman with cats, dogs, birds and goldfish everywhere in the house.

She wants 100 year old woodwork to be blade filled everywhere so they look like new. She has a floodlight which she points out minor imperfections in the plaster walls. This degree of preparation was not in my scope of work when I priced the job, but hey I will suck it up and make her happy. Now she is asking for me to price additional work for her which I am reluctant to undertake.

How do I tell her to shove it ?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PDCA industry standards. Work inspection shall be done under normal lighting from a normal viewing angle at 3' distance. 
Set the scope and expectations up front.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Other than just getting freaking paid, telling people to eff off is the hardest thing for me to do. Especially when they ask you to do more work.

One day i will be able to say no, one day....


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

driftweed said:


> One day i will be able to say no, one day....


I say YES to everything...always have always will and most times I say FUK right after it ......


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Brian C said:


> We have been painting a large 2 story victorian home interior which was in poor condition and on completion of the job the the lady homeowner has been totally unreasonable with her expectations. She is a grumpy big bodied woman with cats, dogs, birds and goldfish everywhere in the house.
> 
> She wants 100 year old woodwork to be blade filled everywhere so they look like new. She has a floodlight which she points out minor imperfections in the plaster walls. This degree of preparation was not in my scope of work when I priced the job, but hey I will suck it up and make her happy. Now she is asking for me to price additional work for her which I am reluctant to undertake.
> 
> How do I tell her to shove it ?


If you don't want to do it it's easy.Tell her you already have other work scheduled and you just can't do it.No need to piss her off now that the job is almost done.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

If she wants to give you more work and you know she's going to be picky, charge her more.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Damon T said:


> PDCA industry standards. Work inspection shall be done under normal lighting from a normal viewing angle at 3' distance.
> Set the scope and expectations up front.


Gday Damon 

Same in Australia


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

If she wants more work then shes happy with you. Degree of perfection should be discussed at the time of the estimate and put in writing. OR you could bid every job assuming they will require a flawless finish, and charge accordingly. Explain in detail 

I had a customer like that 2 years ago. Flood-light, rubbing hands on walls saying the master bedroom wall looks great, but it feels different than guest room walls....this wall looks great, but when I stand here, and shine my 600 Watt flood light from this angel, then I see some issues.....

So I started learning about obsessive compulsive disorder. Signs and symptoms, Now we turn down about 10 jobs a year and have not had one like that since. 

Its also possible to turn a normal customer into a picky one. If they lose trust in your quality, they start feeling that they need to be supervising you. I spend a lot of time thinking about what they see, and how they feel about our work from the initial phone call.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Brian C said:


> We have been painting a large 2 story victorian home interior which was in poor condition and on completion of the job the the lady homeowner has been totally unreasonable with her expectations. She is a grumpy big bodied woman with cats, dogs, birds and goldfish everywhere in the house.
> 
> She wants 100 year old woodwork to be blade filled everywhere so they look like new. She has a floodlight which she points out minor imperfections in the plaster walls. This degree of preparation was not in my scope of work when I priced the job, but hey I will suck it up and make her happy. Now she is asking for me to price additional work for her which I am reluctant to undertake.
> 
> ...


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

SeaMonster said:


> If she wants more work then shes happy with you. Degree of perfection should be discussed at the time of the estimate and put in writing. OR you could bid every job assuming they will require a flawless finish, and charge accordingly. Explain in detail
> 
> I had a customer like that 2 years ago. Flood-light, rubbing hands on walls saying the master bedroom wall looks great, but it feels different than guest room walls....this wall looks great, but when I stand here, and shine my 600 Watt flood light from this angel, then I see some issues.....
> 
> ...


I forget who on here said it but it holds true. Some of the best jobs are the ones you don't get.:yes:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

slinger58;418277[I said:


> [/[/I]QUOTE]
> 
> Tell her to log onto this forum and to ask for Steve Richards. :jester:


And I would say to her:

"you don't seem overly pleased with what Brian has already done, so why would he want to do any more for you?
Brian is a busy man, and as soon as he's finished with you and your nit-picking, he'll be moving on to a job where his craftsmanship is appreciated... so I'm sure you can understand his being in a big ass hurry to leave"


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanks guys, 
its completion tomorrow and we will see if there are issues. I just want my money !


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Oh, word of advice - don't work for fat ladies with migraines and have fluffily pets !


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Oh, word of advice - don't work for fat ladies with migraines and have fluffily pets !


What if you're married to one?

Oh yeah...I never paint around here.

never mind


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> What if you're married to one?
> 
> Oh yeah...I never paint around here.
> 
> never mind


you haven't told the little woman what your PT name is, have you?

I guess that's a rhetorical question, as you are still alive and apparently have access to the interent.  :thumbsup:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

daArch said:


> you haven't told the little woman what your PT name is, have you?
> 
> I guess that's a rhetorical question, as you are still alive and apparently have access to the interent.  :thumbsup:


Sometimes I'll mention stuff "Steve Richards on PT" says.

She thinks he's an ass and wonders why I even talk to him.


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

Bid it a 2x what you would normally bid it at. That way if you get it you won't be too mad...


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm sure my ignorance is in no small part due to my relative newness in the trade but why don't you guys just be upfront with the customer when you or they have issues or concerns? Does it matter if the issue(s) is/are tied to the scope of the work or the expectations of the customer? The first day of the job or the last day of the job? The price or the performance? 

I guess I don't understand all of the negative ramifications being honest and upfront can have. It seems like everyone is reluctant to 'quit' on a homeowner. I'm not suggesting anyone let the dog out the front door and flip over the kitchen table while screaming profanities but why not tell the customer that, for the price you quoted, you're beginning to have some serious reservations? When they ask why...tell them.

You don't have to be critical or insulting. You just have to be clear and probably a little apologetic. What's the issue with telling them you're not sure how to make their walls 'feel' the same within the scope you quoted? 

'I understand you're concerned about some tactile differences you've detected between wall A and wall K. This is something I've never had a client bring up before. If this difference in feel is something you really don't think you'll be able to live with then we are at a crossroads. The first option is that I can give you a quote to skim, seal, and paint the problem wall(s) and draw up a new contract that reflects both this additional increase in work and increase in price. The only other option is for us to end our working agreement right now. I have no interest in doing a job that won't exceed your expectations and frankly Im certain you dont have much interest in paying someone for work that you're not thrilled about. For the time and work I've put in this far I think $X is fair. Here is the contact info for 3 other qualified local painting companies. I think any of them will be a better match for you and for this specific job' 

I know it's wordy and gives no room for rebuttal but why not just say that kind of stuff to the customer? If it becomes evident that you can't do the job profitably for whatever reason (within reason) why not just...you know....quit before it eats into your pocket? Obviously try and work something out first but if they're unwilling to reconcile the areas of concern what's wrong with charging for the completed work, thanking them for the opportunity and graciously bowing out? 

Contracts are binding sure, but they're not a deed to your bank account held until a measure of slavery has been met. If they refuse to pay you I would imagine this was already coming. Same if they threaten to litigate. It just seems like being open to quitting offers a lot of upside.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanks for taking the time to post your comments. They are well thought out and interesting but you cannot walk off the job when the homeowner is being unreasonable.
I was recommended to this customer by a colour consultant / interior decorator who gives me a lot of referrals, so I didn't want negative feedback to my referring colour consultant. Anyway I completed the job today and I will see if my payment is promptly made or I get a list of touch ups to attend to.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Brian C said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post your comments. They are well thought out and interesting but you cannot walk off the job when the homeowner is being unreasonable.
> I was recommended to this customer by a colour consultant / interior decorator who gives me a lot of referrals, so I didn't want negative feedback to my referring colour consultant. Anyway I completed the job today and I will see if my payment is promptly made or I get a list of touch ups to attend to.


I guess maybe I put too much emphasis on the walking part and not enough on my question about the root issue. 
What I'm trying to ascertain is, if walking amicably is likely the worst case scenario, what is there to actually be lost by communicating openly, honestly, and promptly with the customer? People are pretty understanding, you know. Rarely do they want to feel responsible for ripping someone off. If they don't mind that then you are definitely better off parting ways earlier rather then later. 

Maybe I'm weird but as a consumer I wouldn't have anything negative to say about someone who honestly communicated their concerns about meeting my wants and expectations. Not toward the decorator, not toward the contractor, and not toward whomever I hired in the future. Honestly Id be thankful and appreciative that they guided me in a more appropriate direction before they progressed too far along in both work and cost. 

Please know I'm not trying to criticize you or this situation or this popular industry stance. I'm just legitimately curious as to why there are so many posts from members in situations like yours on this site and so few that share the results of different approaches.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Green - Not everyone in this world has common sense. Being truthful to some of these customers is just a waist of time as they will never get it or they will just turn it into something it's not. I'm sure you have ran into someone like that at one time or another. So this is why most would rather just make some chit up about being busy till the end of the year. It's just easier and you get the objective done quick and easy. 

Pat


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Sometimes I'll mention stuff "Steve Richards on PT" says.
> 
> She thinks he's an ass and wonders why I even talk to him.


 
My mother used to say that, it is alright to talk to yourself but when you start answering , your in trouble.

She never said what kind of trouble but her brother was a psychiatrist.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

PatsPainting said:


> Green - Not everyone in this world has common sense. Being truthful to some of these customers is just a waist of time as they will never get it or they will just turn it into something it's not. I'm sure you have ran into someone like that at one time or another. So this is why most would rather just make some chit up about being busy till the end of the year. It's just easier and you get the objective done quick and easy.
> 
> Pat


I think you've hit it on the head Pat. Or at the very least brought up something I hadn't thought of but can now clearly see happening. 

You said 'turn it into something it's not'. I hadn't really considered the customer processing the renegotiation and transforming it into...god only knows what! I think I'm correct in saying no one really likes ripping someone off. What I overlooked though is that there's something else people don't like. And that thing is........who the hell knows!? People are crazy! Anything can set them off and who knows what they're liable to do! 

I'm serious! Man THIS is exactly why I love this forum. Here I am green as a gelding with all my high and mighty ideas about compassion and empathy and communication with the customer. All fine and noble ideas. All EXACTLY the kind of stupid sh[t Id go piping off about to some barely-stable-to-begin-with customer. ".....and so Mrs Sourpuss I'm sure you can see how ending this contr...." and then the skin falls off her face and she releases her bowels and that's just the beginning! I haven't even gotten to the price increase yet. 

Holy Toledo Pat. I doubt when you typed those words you had any idea the match light of insight you'd be triggering inside my mind. God man, it's all so clear now. I can absolutely see scenario after scenario unfolding and escalating. The sum total of all scenarios breakdown like this: Customer: 100% Russ: 0% lol. Holy crap how could I have been so naive!?

I sincerely appreciate you responding Pat. I think there's some value in my previous idea about renegotiating but I'm pretty well convinced the avenue I thought would yield good results would instead yield catastrophe. Or at least extreme anxiety, confusion, eventual acquiescencts, and finally a complete breaking of my spirit and dignity. To review: more communication=good. My idea=.........risky!

Back to the drawing board!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Brian C said:


> We have been painting a large 2 story victorian home interior which was in poor condition and on completion of the job the the lady homeowner has been totally unreasonable with her expectations. She is a grumpy big bodied woman with cats, dogs, birds and goldfish everywhere in the house.
> 
> She wants 100 year old woodwork to be blade filled everywhere so they look like new. She has a floodlight which she points out minor imperfections in the plaster walls. This degree of preparation was not in my scope of work when I priced the job, but hey I will suck it up and make her happy. Now she is asking for me to price additional work for her which I am reluctant to undertake.
> 
> How do I tell her to shove it ?


 Sounds to me like your flooded with work!:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

SeaMonster said:


> If she wants more work then shes happy with you. Degree of perfection should be discussed at the time of the estimate and put in writing. OR you could bid every job assuming they will require a flawless finish, and charge accordingly. Explain in detail
> 
> I had a customer like that 2 years ago. Flood-light, rubbing hands on walls saying the master bedroom wall looks great, but it feels different than guest room walls....this wall looks great, but when I stand here, and shine my 600 Watt flood light from this angel, then I see some issues.....
> 
> ...


What you Sea, is what you get!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Brian C said:


> Thanks guys,
> its completion tomorrow and we will see if there are issues. I just want my money !


No wonder you turn to the bottle!


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Man, i hate crap like that.

I just finished my 2nd job for a pita client.

Jobe one: 3brm apartment. Gave a discount because hacks totally effed it up. Finished on the 17th may, was supposed to be paid june 1. Had to harras and threaten legal action to get paid. Paid 2 weeks late.

Told em next time, they have 3 days or cya in court.

Next time happen june 17th. Paint 1 bdrm in 13 hrs. I taped all trim because previous painters got paint everywhere. I pointed it out but they didn't want it fixed. I even called them in to verify everything BEFORE i painted. Got the ok and painted. To be paid july 1st.

Paid july 3. They deducted $75 because they had to come back & get paint off trim. They didn't address any issues or give me a chance to correct or defend myself.

And now they want me to do another one next week. Not gonna happen. 

Thanks guys, you help alot of us save headaches by turning down work. I can turn down the next one & not feel alone in my thinking.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

driftweed said:


> Man, i hate crap like that.
> 
> I just finished my 2nd job for a pita client.
> 
> ...



Are you serious??

#1: Why would you wait for money on a job that size?

#2: why would you go back for more punishment?

They have you right where the want you and you look like a guy hangin out in front of Home Depot
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Painting is an illusion and we are Magicians. Everything's cool until someone wants to break down your act. That's when we are at our most vulnerable. The difference between a professional painter and a green horn, is the ability to deflect these prying attempts to expose the inconsistencies and the subjective uncertainties of what we call a paint job. As Magicians, we must provide distractions through enchantment and entertainment, like bearing tattoos and ponytails. Or displaying well developed guns while blasting 90's Heroin Rock. 

We are a whirl wind that enters with chaos and leaves behind order and beauty.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Painting is an illusion and we are Magicians. Everything's cool until someone wants to break down your act. That's when we are at our most vulnerable. The difference between a professional painter and a green horn, is the ability to deflect these prying attempts to expose the inconsistencies and the subjective uncertainties of what we call a paint job. As Magicians, we must provide distractions through enchantment and entertainment, like bearing tattoos and ponytails. Or displaying well developed guns while blasting 90's Heroin Rock.
> 
> We are a whirl wind that enters with chaos and leaves behind order and beauty.


Hmmmm... and I thought I just painted stuff. I'm gonna' give myself a raise. :yes:


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Painting is an illusion and we are Magicians. Everything's cool until someone wants to break down your act. That's when we are at our most vulnerable. The difference between a professional painter and a green horn, is the ability to deflect these prying attempts to expose the inconsistencies and the subjective uncertainties of what we call a paint job. As Magicians, we must provide distractions through enchantment and entertainment, like bearing tattoos and ponytails. Or displaying well developed guns while blasting 90's Heroin Rock.
> 
> We are a whirl wind that enters with chaos and leaves behind order and beauty.


I think you've confused two separate entities. I, for example, am an illusionist. I obfuscate the painfully obvious. I don't create phantoms and faries from pure nothing. Rather I beguile the audience. I merely show them that the phantoms and faries have indeed always existed. Exactly where they always thought they did. 

The illusion isn't in creating a billowy, luminous specter. Any dolt can achieve that end simply enough with only rudimentary materials. The real illusion is much more cerebral. The real illusion is convincing the audience to surrender control , for just that split second, and (like all children) project the universe inside themselves onto the canvas of the world. Beleiving in oneself is by far the hardest belief system to maintain. 

Magicians do tricks. The same thing wh0r€s do for money and cocaine.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

GreenGuy said:


> I think you've confused two separate entities. I, for example, am an illusionist. I obfuscate the painfully obvious. I don't create phantoms and faries from pure nothing. Rather I beguile the audience. I merely show them that the phantoms and faries have indeed always existed. Exactly where they always thought they did.
> 
> The illusion isn't in creating a billowy, luminous specter. Any dolt can achieve that end simply enough with only rudimentary materials. The real illusion is much more cerebral. The real illusion is convincing the audience to surrender control , for just that split second, and (like all children) project the universe inside themselves onto the canvas of the world. Beleiving in oneself is by far the hardest belief system to maintain.
> 
> Magicians do tricks. The same thing wh0r€s do for money and cocaine.


Whatever the means to the end, its all about satisfaction.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Painting is an illusion and we are Magicians. Everything's cool until someone wants to break down your act. That's when we are at our most vulnerable. The difference between a professional painter and a green horn, is the ability to deflect these prying attempts to expose the inconsistencies and the subjective uncertainties of what we call a paint job. As Magicians, we must provide distractions through enchantment and entertainment, like bearing tattoos and ponytails. Or displaying well developed guns while blasting 90's Heroin Rock.
> 
> We are a whirl wind that enters with chaos and leaves behind order and beauty.


That was awesome CA.

I'm gonna go do my Friday night medicating, and read it again.

BRB

RH is right.
It's still awesome, but in a weirder way... plus I'm pretty sure someone's trying to sneak up me right now.
Thanks again, CA.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> That was awesome CA.
> 
> I'm gonna go do my Friday night medicating, and read it again.
> 
> BRB


After you do I bet it will be even awesomer.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, I can't really comment on the topic at hand. 

But I do have to say, Green Guy is pretty funny. Dude served Pat. You don't see that chit very often. 

(Pat still rocks the house, don't get all puffy GG)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> That was awesome CA.
> 
> I'm gonna go do my Friday night medicating, and read it again.
> 
> BRB


Don't forget to read Greenguy's interpretation of the painter. Its much more esoteric then mine.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Don't forget to read Greenguy's interpretation of the painter. Its much more esoteric then mine.


I'm gonna have to try and read it again tomorrow. GD drugs.

Could someone please make sure the mods don't delete this thread before I read it?

Thanks


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> I'm gonna have to try and read it again tomorrow. GD drugs.
> 
> Could someone please make sure the mods don't delete this thread before I read it?
> 
> Thanks


As long as we can keep muracoat out of here, we should be good up until tomorrows morning cup of Jo.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CApainter said:


> As long as we can keep muracoat out of here, we should be good up until tomorrows morning cup of Jo.


Jenkies.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> I'm gonna have to try and read it again tomorrow. GD drugs.
> 
> Could someone please make sure the mods don't delete this thread before I read it?
> 
> Thanks


Steve, I think it's time to pass the immunity idol to GG, he's a keeper!:thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Steve must not have Siri verbalize all paint talk reads like I do.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

You guys have got to start wearing respirators.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RCP said:


> Steve, I think it's time to pass the immunity idol to GG, he's a keeper!:thumbsup:


I don't know. You do that, and Steve's a goner for sure.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I don't know. You do that, and Steve's a goner for sure.


I think Steve would pass Green Guy the hippie, but not the idol.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

GreenGuy said:


> I think you've confused two separate entities. I, for example, am an illusionist. I obfuscate the painfully obvious. I don't create phantoms and faries from pure nothing. Rather I beguile the audience. I merely show them that the phantoms and faries have indeed always existed. Exactly where they always thought they did.
> 
> The illusion isn't in creating a billowy, luminous specter. Any dolt can achieve that end simply enough with only rudimentary materials. The real illusion is much more cerebral. The real illusion is convincing the audience to surrender control , for just that split second, and (like all children) project the universe inside themselves onto the canvas of the world. Beleiving in oneself is by far the hardest belief system to maintain.
> 
> Magicians do tricks. The same thing wh0r€s do for money and cocaine.


I have NO IDEA what you just said, but DAMN that is some good sheeet :thumbup:

But to answer you first post in this thread, where you claim naiveté about being up front and honest about expectations - and I do grok the concept. 

But the problem arises WITH those inexplicable expectations, when there is a disconnect between what two people expects the other to accept as reasonable. I think that some of the most fiercest confrontations have arisen over differences in what is "reasonable", to a point where neither party is reasonable. 

Being in the business for a couple of days myself, I have grown to realize that many HO's expect a trades person to be able to foresee and predict every problem that will arise, be able to read the HO's mind as to what level of "reasonable acceptance" he/she wants, and complete the job with such "reasonable expectation" at the stated estimated cost.

When trades person and HO are traveling on two different and never intersecting planes, there is no line of communication that can tangentially connect both. 

This is one reason I got out of the painting trade. I do not have X-ray vision and I am not a mind reader.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

daArch said:


> I have NO IDEA what you just said


 LOL
I thought it was just the GD drugs!


BTW
Sorry RCP, I sold the idol on ebay.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

I think you need to be honest with the customers, and its sad that some guy who repeatedly reminds us of his zillion years of experience is teaching the new guy how to lie. 

This is my email to my very last obsessive compulsive client: 

"Hi [name], Thank you again for choosing [my company name] for your painting project. Your quality requirements are very different than anything I have experienced in my 12 years of painting in this area. At this point, our small business is hurting to provide you a satisfactory finish. I fully appreciate your extreme attention to detail, but at this point, we have to simply say NO to coming back. Your invoice is attached, please pay what you think is fair. I would happy with whatever amount you decide "

He paid in full and I never heard from him again. His daughter called me a year later for an estimate and this is her house. She brought up her crazy picky dad and made fun of him. My point is, you make money by being honest and not the typical shady painting contractor they expect you to be. The daughter reffered 6 other houses to us in her neighborhood, and in about 10 days we are scheduled to paint the fence that wraps around the whole country club. 4 days of work, valued at $10k +. Bottom line; honesty pays.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok, I can't really comment on the topic at hand.
> 
> But I do have to say, Green Guy is pretty funny. Dude served Pat. You don't see that chit very often.
> 
> (Pat still rocks the house, don't get all puffy GG)


Maybe I'm unclear on the vocabulary. I'm not exactly sure what is meant by saying that I 'served Pat'. But if you're suggesting that I was lampooning him I assure you I was not. My response to Pat's post was and is 100% sincere. I think I'm a pretty sharp guy but often I find the things I overlook are the minor things I just take for granted. Taking things for granted is what gets you killed in war and broke business. 

Don't get me wrong, I hoped my response would give people a chuckle but I assure you I meant every word of it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I still like the mystic of the illusionist and magician, because if common sense doesn't carry you through the day, you still have something to fall back on.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I still like the mystic of the illusionist and magician, because if common sense doesn't carry you through the day, you still have something to fall back on.


I have always told everyone that has been part of my company, that the best painters have very rich inner lives. Its a solitary existence. A healthy imagination is a critical part of the skill set.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

GreenGuy said:


> Maybe I'm unclear on the vocabulary. I'm not exactly sure what is meant by saying that I 'served Pat'. But if you're suggesting that I was lampooning him I assure you I was not. My response to Pat's post was and is 100% sincere. I think I'm a pretty sharp guy but often I find the things I overlook are the minor things I just take for granted. Taking things for granted is what gets you killed in war and broke business.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I hoped my response would give people a chuckle but I assure you I meant every word of it.


I don't know whether to be concerned or delighted.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Dang, reading this "theory vs. practice" thread has kinda made my head hurt.
My simple way of seeing things is that some "first time/last time" customers are lunatic assholes and I move on.
I mean life is short and ya can't win 'em all! :thumbsup:


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

SeaMonster said:


> we are scheduled to paint the fence that wraps around the whole country club. 4 days of work, valued at $10k +


Look bro I know you're new here so I'll let it slide this time with a warning. Here on Painttalk pricing talk, questions about pricing practices, and pricing guidelines are frowned upon. 

Now I'm not gonna get the moderators involved this time but if you slip up like this again we have crews in every members hometown on standby. They're just waiting for the signal and before sunrise every key hole, and every door on your house and automobiles will be caulked shut. Sloppy style too. No second pass with the rag. Also all your brushes will be clipped at irregular lengths and all your paints will be boxed regardless of sheen. All your whites will be dyed pink and an organic brown 'stain' will be applied to the seat of all your trousers. Shirts will have the armpits yellowed and nipples cut out. 

They take pricing talk very seriously


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

SeaMonster said:


> I think you need to be honest with the customers, and its sad that some guy who repeatedly reminds us of his zillion years of experience is teaching the new guy how to lie.
> 
> This is my email to my very last obsessive compulsive client:
> 
> ...


Seriously though I appreciate your honest approach and your looking out for me man. And you don't need to worry about me being turned to the dark side or whatever. I think we all share a very similar value set on this forum. But, as is evident in every aspect of life, sometimes we don't quite communicate clearly with one another. 

For example I, in absolutely no way, took from any of the responses the idea that I should be deceptive or less than honest in business. I've reread them and can definitely see how it could come across that way though. What I got from the feedback (and what I honestly believe was intended by the authors) is that I am free to hang myself with whatever cord I choose. Lol. 

I believe what they were saying is that its wonderful, commendable, and appropriate to hold myself and the customer at an equal level. However, tread lightly when in someone else's home. Don't get too prideful . Don't get too comfortable. And certainly don't go in there like you're the cock of the walk. All the noble ideas and good intentions in the world won't be worth the paper they're written on should even your little toe cross that line between professional and pompous. 

I'm big on 'sayings'. I love them. I find them constantly surprising me with their simple brilliance. Their profundity in their poetry. One I've never cared for though is 'no good deed goes unpunished.' I find it too negative and too overbearing. Unfortunately I also find it to be truer and truer. But one I really love is one my parents used to seemingly never stop saying to me. Man it was like twice a day every day lol. I'll close with it now though. I see so much of the truth in it. I see so much of the selfishness in the world and within myself that I try to pretend isn't there. They used to tell me all these old sayings to keep me self aware. It's an invaluable lesson. One that obviously I'm still learning today. 
-The road to Hell is paved with good intentions-


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

I really just don't have a clue what you are talking about lol


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

GG

We may have to impose Twitter rule on you: 140 characters. 

Economy of words. We are skimmers.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

SeaMonster said:


> I really just don't have a clue what you are talking about lol


Now there's a f*cking surprise. :jester:

From the movie " My Cousin Vinnie".


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> GG
> 
> We may have to impose Twitter rule on you: 140 characters.
> 
> Economy of words. We are skimmers.


Thanks Scott. If you hadn't said anything I was going to. :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

GreenGuy said:


> Seriously though I appreciate your honest approach and your looking out for me man. And you don't need to worry about me being turned to the dark side or whatever. I think we all share a very similar value set on this forum. But, as is evident in every aspect of life, sometimes we don't quite communicate clearly with one another.
> 
> For example I, in absolutely no way, took from any of the responses the idea that I should be deceptive or less than honest in business. I've reread them and can definitely see how it could come across that way though. What I got from the feedback (and what I honestly believe was intended by the authors) is that I am free to hang myself with whatever cord I choose. Lol.
> 
> ...


DAMN, A painter that actually THINKS :thumbsup:

yah nose what we doos wid yur tipe . . . . . . . . ahhh . . . I fergit


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> GG
> 
> We may have to impose Twitter rule on you: 140 characters.
> 
> Economy of words. We are skimmers.


You're still just as free to skim. Spoiler: I repeat myself a lot in long posts. Or more specifically I circle-back a lot. It reenforces important points & helps keep the punch in the front of the mind. Seriously, reread one but skim it. You'll see that you still take away most of the high notes. Which is really what's most important, right? 

My prediction though is you'll feel less satisfied by what you read. Less interested or captivated. Or annoyed. Or bored. You'll ultimately feel...less. Because you're not letting go. Because the suffocating jacket adulthood forced on you is already 7 sizes too small and you're still not done growing yet. Because control always forces its' way to the front of every new experience. Because the coat is too tight and it's so uncomfortable and you resent how familiar its fabrics' become. Because you bought these damn tickets and no one else in the audience is anything like you. 
Because you can't surrender to the illusion.


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