# Problem understanding Low VOC or 0 VOC



## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

I got a big problem with understanding this concept of Low VOC or 0 VOC and just keep coming to my mind again and again.

For me Low VOC or 0 VOC means less heavy and harmful particles floating around in the air or evaporate as you paint, I understand that regular latex or acrylic might cause some people some nausea or some other allergic reactions but, I know even certified 0 VOC paint doesn't mean it doesn't smell like anything.

I now for fact that Low VOC's and 0 VOC might not be as harmful for us but still has that very particular smell.

I am just looking at more guys advertising how Low and 0 VOC means no smell, 

And a little expercience from 2 days ago I had an estimate, HO's questioned me when I told them that 0 VOC still had a little smell but just meant less harmful crap on it, yadda yadda (so they ended up looking at me like I don't know what I was talking about) cause some other painter told the HO's that 0 VOC paint doesn't smell.

My question is:
Is that right? Am I very missing a big chuck of information here?  Is it there that magic product that doesn't have any smell? I am just surprised that even if I am very concious not only for my clients but for myself I still don't know about such a product or came across one with no smell.  

PS: Please don't tell me BM Aura, SW Harmony or Duration doesn't smell cause it does...

Please help me clrarify if I am wrong so I need your intel! I appreciate it and thanks in advance. 

By the way... Hello all, I am back!!! :yes:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I found that promar zero had hardly any smell to it. 

Aura does somewhat. 

The thing about voc is, it's deemed to be a air pollutant.


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## dvab (Mar 12, 2008)

*Voc*

Not everything that smells is a VOC (think ammonia) and not every VOC has a smell (think methane without the added odor agent). That said, there is a strong correlation between VOC's and smell, but when the levels get low, it's more about the odor of a few particular VOC's and the individual's sensitivity to those VOCs that make the difference. That's why one person can walk into a room and smell nothing and another can walk in and feel overwhelmed.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The difference is that VOC's are* Volatile* Organic Compunds. Other compounds in paint may not be volatile, but still have an odor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I was just reading that ethylene glycol (anti freeze) found in some paints, is considered low volatility.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Welcome back Aztec...where ya been?

The first time I used BM Natura I was surprised how much it smelled. I too was under the impression that 0 voc meant no odor...:no:. So now I have to explain to the homeowners that it has to do with smog regulations and not necessarily chemical sensitivity problems. I'd love to try Mythic to see how it smells in comparison but no dealors around here.


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## Ace Painting (Jan 11, 2011)

I can't smell latex paint anymore.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Some waterborne primers really bother me. 

They must have something in em that others don't. 

Maybe it's the ammonia.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

I am familiar with a lot of 0 VOC products from BM, SW, KM, P&L and I can go on, I now for fact that no matter how low the VOC's are, paint still smells like paint, I use paint everyday and if I am sensitive to paint smell, even when I am used to so I can imagine a HO. 

The thing is that I found a bunch of painters claiming Low and 0 VOC paint doesn't smell like anything, and it kinda made me look like an idiot when I have responded that paint still smell like paint but it doesn't have harmful particules floating in the air and I didn't know yet of a paint that does not have a smell of any kind.

So HO's told me this: "It seems like you haven't done your homework very good cause obviously you don't know what you are talking about, the other 2 guys that came over knew it"

So I've been struggling thinking that I might be wrong but I can't find anywhere that says Low and 0 VOC it's supposed to have no odour,


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Okay in this dilemma today , omg ok post a thread earlier paint smells . Went and seen this job today . After 1 month painted with zero Voc promar 200 and still a strong paint smell . Wtf ok the room is hot pink . Walls got lets say 15 coats of paint last 6 coats of paint all low voc from harmony to Olympic zero voc . Not sure what to do ? Op 1 repaint with Eco spec zero voc or op 2 prime skim float and retexture . Prime with low voc primer then 
Eco spec for finish . Main question does the low or zero voc s colorants cause the paint to smell more ??? Or ripe the damn sheet rock out and start over . The smell is the issue ... They are having a baby


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

TERRY365PAINTER said:


> Okay in this dilemma today , omg ok post a thread earlier paint smells . Went and seen this job today . After 1 month painted with zero Voc promar 200 and still a strong paint smell . Wtf ok the room is hot pink . Walls got lets say 15 coats of paint last 6 coats of paint all low voc from harmony to Olympic zero voc . Not sure what to do ? Op 1 repaint with Eco spec zero voc or op 2 prime skim float and retexture . Prime with low voc primer then
> Eco spec for finish . Main question does the low or zero voc s colorants cause the paint to smell more ??? Or ripe the damn sheet rock out and start over . The smell is the issue ... They are having a baby


Sorry man, apparently I haven't done my homework very good so I don't know what paint to suggest.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Oddly enough one of the things discovered about low/0 VOC paints is that they can activate odors embedded in drywall and somehow keep the odors alive for quite a while. This is an issue that paint companies are finding perplexing. The solution for me is to seal with Cover Stain, Prime Lock, BIN or whatever oil base sealer you choose and follow up with low/0 VOC finish. Yes that sounds counter to what the customers needs are, but lingering odor can be a serious issue. Odor complaints were always my number one complaint challenge and ones that were taken very seriously.


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

NACE said:


> Oddly enough one of the things discovered about low/0 VOC paints is that they can activate odors embedded in drywall and somehow keep the odors alive for quite a while. This is an issue that paint companies are finding perplexing. The solution for me is to seal with Cover Stain, Prime Lock, BIN or whatever oil base sealer you choose and follow up with low/0 VOC finish. Yes that sounds counter to what the customers needs are, but lingering odor can be a serious issue. Odor complaints were always my number one complaint challenge and ones that were taken very seriously.


Thanks thats the problem , I am having . 
Multiple coats of low voc paint . Trapping in that first layer of bad voc paint from Olympic . Do you think agua lock water based would work just as good ? Scared to bring in a oil based primer . I don't think that will fly with the client ... The smell is strong paint smell . Like after a month !!


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Aqua-lock is good but has a high ammonia content and smell.


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## ajpace (Jan 6, 2008)

The EPA definition of a VOC is any carbon-based molecule that readily vaporizes at room temperature, that could react with nitrogen and UV to create low-level smog. Nowhere in that definition does it elude to human health. Yet, most paint manufacturers and the leaders of the green building movement continue to propagate the idea that VOC's in paint need to be avoided to improve the health of the human indoor occupants. 

While VOC's can be hazardous to humans, that is not always the case. Peel the skin off of an orange and you are releasing 850 g/l of VOC's into the air. Squeeze toothpaste onto a brush and you are releasing unknown quantities of VOC's from the propylene glycol (which is an FDA approved good-grade additive). It is also true that not all hazards in paint are classified as VOC's. When the EPA wrote the VOC regs, they gave specific exemption to a certain class of carbon-based solvents that didn't react to create smog. Ammonia, acetone, butyl acetate, as examples. While these solvents technically are VOC's, they do not have to be listed as such on an MSDS. Then, add in the fungicides, chemical masking agents and formaldehyde precursors, which do not have to be listed because they either make up less than one percent of the volume or they are part of a "proprietary blend", and you've got a product that is likely to be very harmful to humans but technically zero VOC.

If folks in the green building industry really want to help create healthy homes, then the discussion needs to change. VOC's are only regulated by the EPA because of outdoor air pollution. They're not addressing the 86,000 chemicals used in the production of building materials, in which we know the toxic effects of about 3% of those.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

As for Natura having a smell, I have used it EXTENSIVELY and I (and my clients)have found little to no smell, even immediately after painting rooms, in winter, with the windows closed... I wonder if certain colorants have more smell than others..... 

That being said, the previous post about low/no voc paints releasing odors within previous coatings/substrate is very interesting. I know BM has some lawsuits about Natura and awful odors, possibly caused reactions with substandard drywall.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

...a couple of posters' above hinted at this I believe...

VOC's and PERCEIVED Odors....
Are NOT even remotely related!!!

I say "Perceived" odor because "Odor" is such a subjective/individual thing.
A paint that I may think smells like Hell....You may not even notice....

For example-
Zinssers' 123 primer is a fantastic primer obviously! 
I CAN'T STAND the smell of it! I won't use it.
The C2-One primer, a very good Latex-stainblocker like 123, has little odor...TO ME. I could use it all day long.
Note- The C2 primer has higher VOC's than the 123!!

* Zero & "Low" VOC paints are where all companies are heading anyway, obviously.
* By the 2 most popular testing methods, the closer to "0" VOC that a paint gets, the harder it is to measure those levels!
* Soooooo....in a way, for most reasons, the difference between "Zero" and "LOW" VOC paints.....IS MAINLY IRRELEVANT.
* Neither type hurts the atmosphere anymore.
* ODORS?!?!?! Well....THAT'S a different matter obviously!!!

Faron


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Excellent thread, thank you to those who have educated me on low voc and zero voc products.

This is what painttalk is all about for me. :yes:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Many customers do think zero VOC means no smell so I make it very clear to those wishing me to use them that there may well be an odor - just that it's not the VOCs they will be smelling. 

I really can't smell the regular (non-zero VOC) paint I use anymore - at least as long as it's not Manor Hall .


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Many customers do think zero VOC means no smell so I make it very clear to those wishing me to use them that there may well be an odor - just that it's not the VOCs they will be smelling.


This is the answer to my my question... That's exactly what I thought, but oddly enough, by the HO's I was wrong and the other 2 painters that came in before to give a quote were right :blink:... I just don't feel right BSing people to make a sell (Or am I dumb) Or might be pure ignorance to not know paint still smells like paint... 

Not trying to be a know it all or perfect by any chance but I knew that 0 VOC's in paint doesn't mean that has no smell like other guys are selling... I think pure water has no smell, but paint? (Made out of chemicals, yeah right...)


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

AztecPainting said:


> This is the answer to my my question... That's exactly what I thought, but oddly enough, by the HO's I was wrong and the other 2 painters that came in before to give a quote were right :blink:... I just don't feel right BSing people to make a sell (Or am I dumb) Or might be pure ignorance to not know paint still smells like paint...
> 
> Not trying to be a know it all or perfect by any chance but I knew that 0 VOC's in paint doesn't mean that has no smell like other guys are selling... I think pure water has no smell, but paint? (Made out of chemicals, yeah right...)


Just to make it clear - there very well may be zero VOC paints that have no odor. But many do and it still may be an issue for a sensitive HO. My paint of choice is a low VOC (less than 200g/l) but it has very low odor. But this same brand's zero VOC line has more of an odor. Go figure.


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## joegreco (Jun 24, 2011)

Lifemaster was launched in 1992 as Canada’s first VOC-free paint. Now, more than 18 years after its introduction, Dulux Lifemaster is our leading product series where “green” building standards are sought. All Dulux Lifemaster products are LEED compliant.:thumbup:

http://www.dulux.ca/en/our-products/paint-products/interior-paints/dulux-lifemaster.html


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## Alchemist (May 2, 2012)

I've lurked on PaintTalk for years and am still astounded that so few painters know what VOC's are. Well, there is no way to explain it without getting a bit technical so if you really want to take the effort to learn this stuff, and look knowledgeable in front of your customers, read on. If not, you may as well stop reading now. This will get a bit complicated.

The term V.O.C. stands for Volatile (meaning it evaporates), Organic (made from carbon), Compound (is a physical material). What makes this a bit confusing is that this term has general meaning and also one that is very specific to the paint industry. 

1) The general meaning is that any material that evaporates, and is made of carbon, is a volatile organic material. The alcohol in a glass of scotch is ethanol and since ethanol contains carbon and evaporates so it would be a VOC in the general sense. So would acetone, the smelly solvent in nail polish. The same with mineral spirits in oil paint. It's not a big stretch to say that most of these materials have a noticeable odour and breathing these materials in may, in some cases, pose harmful health effects depending on exposure time and concentration. So, in the "general sense", V.O.C's imply an odour and the potential of health concerns. 

2) Now let's get to the paint industry. You have to forget the general meaning completely. The governmental bodies in North America have defined a material as a "VOC" in paint if it evaporates and helps to produce smog outdoors. It really has nothing to do with indoor air quality. More specifically, if a chemical compound in glue, caulking or paint evaporates and reacts with car exhaust and sunlight to produce ozone it's called a VOC. That's the official definition that paint manufacturers are forced to use. It says nothing about being toxic or smelly. If you want to see a list of materials that are made of carbon (some of which smell pretty bad) and are not counted as being an official VOC because they don't react sunlight to any great extent see the following link.
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/naaqs/ozone/ozonetech/def_voc.htm

This means that paints made from some of these compounds will smell bad, may be harmful (depending on exposure time and concentration) but can be legally labeled as zero VOC! Bet you didn't know that. Nail polish made with only acetone and an acrylic resin can be labelled as zero VOC.

3) The way paints are measured for VOC is also interesting. It turns out that the VOC stated on the label only refers to the paint before the paint store squirts colorant into it. Almost every can of architectural paint is tinted before the customer gets it so why not include the VOC's that come from the colorant in the calculation? These can add about 70 g/l of VOC. Since this makes the paint look bad manufacturers avoid doing this. However, If you look hard enough you will find some manufacturers that have tint materials that contain no VOC's. A much better choice.

4) To get around the limited definition of VOC look for products that state that they have very low levels of "total emissions" after tinting and not just official VOC's. This will capture all the volatile solvents that are excluded from the official VOC definition and will more closely match what your clients expect. They want a paint with the lowest amount of material that can evaporate into the indoor environment. There is no guarantee that these will be totally odour free. Even trace amounts of some materials (less that 1 VOC) can be detected by very sensitive people, but at least you will know that you are supplying a product that will introduce the least amount of material into their home. 
Hope that helped.

Alchemist


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Alchemist, thank you.
Very well said!


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## dvab (Mar 12, 2008)

Good summary. To point #3, the SCAQMD is introducing new rules in January that do include colorant in the VOC calculation. This is forcing everyone to adopt 0 or low VOC colorants. BM, Lowes, DE and HD are already there and all others that do business in CA will need to be there by year end. Unlike BM, which uses waterborne colorants, most others have or will likely go with universal 0 VOC colorants.


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## ajpace (Jan 6, 2008)

Referring back to my post a couple months ago, the VOC content of paint, whether you are including pigments or not, has absolutely nothing to do with the toxicity of the paint. Ingredients like acetone, ammonia, butyl acetate, as well as any other additives that make up less than 1% of the total volume, do not have to be listed on an MSDS and are not classified as VOC's by the EPA definition.


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## GeorgeG (Jun 2, 2012)

Excellent information here but there is more. It is important to understand the goal of the home owner, builder, and/or painting contractor so that you can meet their needs successfully. Is it to be Green (recycle, energy efficiency, low carbon footprint, etc.), meet a building certification level (LEEDS, CARB, CHPS, Green Guard, etc.), low odor, low VOC's as advertised, low toxicity for the indoor occupants, low health impact to a particular home owner.

Green:

This is a wide open topic with no clear definition so you have to ask. Containers made of recycled plastic, soy ink on the label, no silica (sanding dust), Green Guard, carbon footprint practices of the paint manufacturer, 0 VOC, etc. 

Building certification level:

Self explanatory, read the data sheets and rack up the LEEDS points or be CARB compliant.

Odor:

As mentioned in previous posts, 0 VOC does not mean no odor, or healthy. Some 0 VOC paints make some sensitive people sick (more on that later). Not all odors are offensive to a given individual and not all odors are the same on day one as on day 3 or beyond. Odor preference is a personal thing. Some people can't stand the smell of garlic but it is one of the healthiest things you can put in your body. Everybody has a different threshold for odors. Natura smells minty when new but still smells minty weeks later. Promar 200 0 VOC has a less pleasant smell initially but has essentially no smell in a week. PPG Pure Performance has a low level smell like oil based paint that is fairly persistant. Generally speaking, the higher the sheen, the higher and more persistant the odor. Mythics flat has almost no odor at week one but high gloss may make the house unliveable for some at one week. BTW no odor is sometimes achieved by using a masking chemical which paralyzes your noses ability to smell odors which may still meet the objective but not if healthy or low toxicity is the goal. You should understand time frame (new construction is not the same as a nursery repaint) as well as see if the customer wants to check a sample, fresh or aged if its really important to them. You can't unpaint a wall and most sealers are not 100% effective.

Zero VOC:

Covered pretty well here. Only means EPA defined VOC's below a certian threshold, not literally zero and not literally all VOC's. Not all VOC's have an odor and not all VOC's are unhealthy. Also, VOC's have a different persistance or ability to continue to off gass and effect the indoor air quality. formaldehyde is one of the worst because it has nasty health effects, is undetectable at levels that are still unhealthy and has a 20 year half life which means your particle board cabinets are offgassing at half the original level 20 years after installation. Other fairly nasty solvents like acetone/laquer thinner flash off very quickly. So its important to know why 0 VOC's. If its for the sake of it then check the label and breakout the cutting brushes. If its for odor, better make sure the person paying the bills agrees. If its for health, read on.

Low toxicity/indoor air quality:

Green, 0 VOC, LEEDS, etc. does not mean non-toxic. Adding fly ash to your concrete makes it stronger, recycles a waste material, and therefore to some is more "green" but some fly ash is very toxic. Some recycled plastic smells perfumy and bothers some sensitive individuals. If what the specifier wants is low toxicity and high indoor air quality (health concerns, new baby, pregnant lady, etc.), there other considerations. There are paint manufacturers that have this as their stated goal such as AFM, Mythic, Envirokote, etc. They may promote no silica (respirable sanding dust), no glycols, low total VOC's, no fungicides, no toxic preservatives, low overall toxicity, etc. They all smell different and some of their claims are hard to verify. The MSDS sheet is of limited value because not all ingredients are disclosed. Also, many of these products are regional with limited distribution, they cost more and some are harder to work with because they don't have some of the ingredients that improve performance but this geting better. If the customer wants better indoor air quality and healthy, one of these brands may be the best route.

Chemically sensitive:

If you are working with one of the growing number of people that are made sick from some or most of the thousands of synthetic chemicals in common use today in building materials this is a very different story. This person can become very ill from constant exposure to the wrong building products, paint included. Smell has nothing to do with it (although you still have to make sure that the choice is not offensive). Working with products that are shooting for non-toxic may be a better starting point. The key here is to respect the fact that this person needs help to be certain that their paint choice keeps their living enviorment safe. We may know pregnant women or people undergoing chemotherapy for cancer that suddenly get ill from the chemicals that used to be no problem in the house (hair spray, paint, deoderant, laundry products, etc.). The chemically sensitive person is stuck in this state. It is important to make up a sample board for the customer and give them time to determine if the products are non-toxic to them. People are bio-individual, there is no one right answer. Ironically, many sensitive people are not bothered by the catalyzed paint used on cars or cabinets. At time zero this is some of the nastiest stuff in the painting world where respirators and Tyvek suits are used for application and VOC's are 500 g/l or above but the film offgasses and catalyzes into a stable and low off gassing system after a few days or weeks. You may also want to start in a room that is used less frequently in case a larger area proves to be an issue. If all of this sounds a little hard to understand or believe then you should pass on customers who make this claim because the job may not go well and both of you may end frustrated. If you are OK with this type of customer and want to help and be patient then the job can be rewarding and the money will pay bills just as well as other work.

Hope this helps,

George


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## RxMan (Jun 5, 2012)

Zero VOC coatings have been over-marketed from the start and, as such, established an unrealistic expectation for the consumer. The promise that Zero VOC brings inherent health and environmental benefit is somewhat accurate, but WAY over-blown. All-in-all, I believe the trend is a positive step toward better and more sustainable coatings. As for the odor, a wet dog smells to high heaven yet emits Zero VOC.


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

This may have been answered. But, their are a couple paints that have a true zero VOC system after tinting. California has it's Trillion system and Moores has Gennex. Sherwin is developing one I think, but wont be compatible with all paint lines. The older tint system EVERYONE used added VOC's into the paint. So with the evolution of Zero VOC paints, combined with old technology, it was no longer a Zero VOC paint. Some of these can also get pretty damn expensive, $70 per gallon or more. Elements is a zero VOC, 100% acrylic and it has Microban in it which makes it an anti-microbial product at about $45.
I have noticed no "smell" with Elements when painting at all. My wife has developed a very sensitive nose after our daughter was born (very annoying by the way being a guy and all). She was OK with me re-painting her dance studio during classes in unused rooms with clients around.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I don't have anything to add to this thread which wasn't already said. I just wanted to put the defibrillator on its chest and make it beat once more. 

I learned more about Low/No VOC Paints from this thread than I had in my entire life. This is what PT is all about to me.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> I found that promar zero had hardly any smell to it.
> 
> Aura does somewhat.
> 
> The thing about voc is, it's deemed to be a air pollutant.


I'm not saying you're wrong.

I am saying ProMar 0-VOC got delisted from the Master Painters Institute listings across every single sheen because of its odor.

Just some free information.

I can't smell Natura unless my nose is touching the paint.

This was touched on in the thread, but all Benjamin Moore waterborne paints (which is what you're using for most everything unless you're adhering with Regal Classic/Super Spec [for some reason] or are using industrial coatings) use Gennex colorants which have always been Zero VOC. This doesn't mean healthy, necessarily, though- I'm sure there's some heavy metals and some of them reek. This could be why people claim Natura has a smell (painting on a black/dark brown coating in particular uses a lot of smelly colorant).

From a marketing/salesmanship standpoint:

Zero VOC helps indoor air quality in a very hard to measure way, and outdoor air quality in a much easier way, and as such should be presented to eco/environment conscious buyers.

Zero smell should be marketed to people who care more about the actual livability of their home, and people who might be sensitive to smells.

Some paints are also specifically made to be as non-toxic as possible. Natura is one of those. There's some from other brands, and also some mom & pop "milk" paints and such, though I strongly caution about the quality of some of those. These should be marketed to expecting mothers/families with young children/health conscious individuals.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Okay, I really understand this VOC thing a lot better now. However, I always thought that VOCs stop being a problem once the paint was dry. But, today I found this while doing some research. My question is, "does this person really know what he is talking about in terms of the time that VOCs are present in the air after painting.

 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "On two occasions in recent months we've needed painting done in our apartment -- once due to water damage and another time because we enlarged a room. For the first job, we got low-VOC paint; for the second one -- completed last night -- we forgot.  [/FONT] 
 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] What a mistake! We are living with the consequences this morning and will go on living with them for a long time to come. I don't just mean the new paint smell now pervading our home, but the health risks that go with it.  [/FONT] 
 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Conventional paint -- the kind you get if you forget to ask for something different-- emits volatile organic compounds, or VOCs, that are toxic. What makes them volatile is that they don't want to stay in liquid (or solid) form; they tend toward the gaseous state. Hence, first chance they get, they vaporize.  [/FONT] 
 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] In the case of paints, evaporation is greatest during and right after application, but continues at lower levels for months. The gases mix with the air in the room, exposing occupants to chemicals that can have a rash of short- and long-term effects, including eye irritation; respiratory problems; headaches; loss of coordination; nausea; and damage to the liver, kidneys and central nervous system. Exposure to VOCs has also been linked to cancer."

This quote was taken from http://www.nrdc.org/thisgreenlife/0905.asp
 [/FONT]


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I also found this information when doing some research. The text is from Casa Verde Paint--a paint manufacturer from Denver. It's website states "Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are a class of carbon-based chemical solvents that have historically been used as ingredients in paint for the purpose of spreading evenly and adhering to surfaces. They are what we associate with the odor of new paint."

No wonder why painters and home owners are so confused. Here is a paint manufacturer claiming that VOCs are responsible for the smell in paint.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

To be fair, many VOCs do smell, and many VOCs were responsible for the "traditional" paint smell. They just aren't the only thing that smells.

And yes, paint can off-gas (including VOC-free paint) for a long time after being painted on. Exterior paint is far worse than interior. The only paint that doesn't off-gas after drying that I know of is Benjamin Moore Natura. There may be more out there, but if so I've never heard of them. According to BM, Natura is a true no-offgassing product. Even VOC-free paints other than Natura WILL off-gas.

Hope this helps.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Woodford said:


> To be fair, many VOCs do smell, and many VOCs were responsible for the "traditional" paint smell. They just aren't the only thing that smells.
> 
> And yes, paint can off-gas (including VOC-free paint) for a long time after being painted on. Exterior paint is far worse than interior. The only paint that doesn't off-gas after drying that I know of is Benjamin Moore Natura. There may be more out there, but if so I've never heard of them. According to BM, Natura is a true no-offgassing product. Even VOC-free paints other than Natura WILL off-gas.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks, but the purpose of posting this quote was to point out that the OP was dealing with two painters telling a HO that no VOCs means no smell, and after he told the HO that this was simply not true being told that he does not know what he is talking about. This quote is from a paint manufacturer--if they are putting this information out there, what are HOs expected to believe?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> Thanks, but the purpose of posting this quite was to point out that the OP was dealing with two painters telling a HO that no VOCs means no smell, and after he told the HO that this was simply not true being told that he does not know what he is talking about. This quote is from a paint manufacturer--if they are putting this information out there, what are HOs expected to believe?


I don't know what they're "expected" to believe, I just know what's true. All I can do is try to get him/everyone else the most accurate information out there. Unfortunately I can't help much with his personal battle


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Woodford said:


> I don't know what they're "expected" to believe, I just know what's true. All I can do is try to get him/everyone else the most accurate information out there. Unfortunately I can't help much with his personal battle


This is what is so frustrating. Convincing HOs that a lot of the stuff that the hear or read is just not true--that it is no more than a marketing ploy.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

You can tell your customers that Low VOC Paints contain a minimal amount of carbon-based materials which, during evaporation, don't produce smog. Tell them Acetone is Non-VOC, as is Ammonia & Formaldehyde, all of which could be present in Low and No-VOC Paints, so the label of No/Low VOC doesn't guarantee their safety. For customers who are especially sensitive to paints, I'd suggest BM Natura. I'm currently reading up on Mythic Paints, as I hear they have some which are on the same level as Natura.

As far as the article you posted, as with any online content, we must consider the source. I don't know anything about that paint manufacturer, but it isn't a far stretch to think that some paint manufacturers will piece together bits of facts in order to make their products more desirable.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm thinking about writing up a nice long blog post style tome about it. Not sure if people might be interesting; I'm sure I still have a lot to learn before I get around to it. Seems like something the paint industry sorely needs, though.


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## decoraxion (Mar 7, 2015)

Some paints have no VOC...and it says so on the can...but the colourants have VOC's

This is an interesting case of paint cos misleading customers
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...-ppg-settle-ftc-charges-they-misled-consumers


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yup, that was mentioned earlier in the thread as well. There may be regulations coming at some point to stop people from marketing paint as Zero VOC that ends up WAY over even the "low" VOC guidelines after tinting.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Okay, I have a question regarding sheens abd voc paints. 

Today I was using Dulux lifemaster flat, and pearl in an apartment. The smell from the pearl almost kicked us out of the apartment, and it was just the bathroom that was painted. The smell from the flat was almost non existent. Lifemaster is a VOC compliant product from Dulux. Anyone else notice a smell difference from one sheen to the next?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

journeymanPainter said:


> Okay, I have a question regarding sheens abd voc paints.
> 
> Today I was using Dulux lifemaster flat, and pearl in an apartment. The smell from the pearl almost kicked us out of the apartment, and it was just the bathroom that was painted. The smell from the flat was almost non existent. Lifemaster is a VOC compliant product from Dulux. Anyone else notice a smell difference from one sheen to the next?


I haven't noticed much myself, but it's possible easily. It's also possible you just got a bad batch of the pearl.


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

*Tech Info VOC*

Okay guys, gotta respond to this one.

VOC = Volatile organic compound. That number related to the lbs/gal or grams per liter of any organic compound that evaporates into the atmosphere. It has nothing to do with smell. Many low TG polymers (that will coalesce without co solvents) have particular odors with in themselves. The most common vinyl acetate- ethylene polymers smell similar to the vinyl acetate -acrylics.

I can run a 100 grm/ltr. latex enamel "Utah compliant" product with virtually no odor, less than many 0 VOC products out there.

Odor comes from overall formula composition, not just the volatiles. 

As a chemist it is a challenge in this new age. But there are many new exciting technologies on the horizon and it is fun to see the industry develop.


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## montanapropainters (Mar 26, 2015)

*low voc,zero voc,free voc.*

voc is the grade of contamination some paints still have.
todays is very low those grades but still are bad for our organisms.
so if you use zero voc is better for you as a painter and for your customers.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

VOC is not the degree of contamination, its the amount of volatile organic compounds (thinners etc) in the paint.
Water based paints can be just as bad for the environment, if not worse. When spraying, for example, water based is more dangerous as your lung accepts the particles as if they were water.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

montanapropainters said:


> voc is the grade of contamination some paints still have.
> todays is very low those grades but still are bad for our organisms.
> so if you use zero voc is better for you as a painter and for your customers.



Please take the time to read this thread. It will explain what VOC's are, and the misconceptions.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

montanapropainters said:


> voc is the grade of contamination some paints still have.
> todays is very low those grades but still are bad for our organisms.
> so if you use zero voc is better for you as a painter and for your customers.


did you READ this thread????:blink:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

montanapropainters said:


> voc is the grade of contamination some paints still have.
> todays is very low those grades but still are bad for our organisms.
> so if you use zero voc is better for you as a painter and for your customers.


This right here is the reason why I want to write an article about VOC's.


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## BrightTrack (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks Troy Stevens,
I would be interested in your conclusions about Mythic Paints, and how it compares to Natura and Ecos Paints. 

Thanks,
Tracy
Bright Track Painting


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

BrightTrack said:


> Thanks Troy Stevens,
> I would be interested in your conclusions about Mythic Paints, and how it compares to Natura and Ecos Paints.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...



I'm not sure if I'm really qualified to give a conclusion on Mythic Paint, but from what I've seen so far, I've been pleasantly surprised. In regards to how it compares to Natura, here's my humble assessment thus far:

-Comparable in coverage/hide, (although Natura is slightly better with a DFT of approx 1.8 to Mythics 1.5, I think).

-Comparable in flow & leveling, giving a slight edge to Mythic, perhaps due to the longer open time of Mythic. 

-Takes longer to dry/re-coat than Natura, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, since it has a longer open time than Natura, it might prove easier to use if/when brushing large surfaces. 

-Mythic isn't self-priming on drywall, where Natura is, (although I don't really care, cuz I'm more of an old-school dumb-dumb who still primes drywall).

-Both have remarkably low odor, which is to say unless you're hovering your snout directly over an open can, chances are, you're not gonna smell it. 

Like I said, this is just from what I've seen so far, but I truly didn't expect Mythic to perform as well as it did, but overall, I'd say it's nearly as good as Natura in most aspects, and even better in a few.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks for the info Troy, stuff like that is always super useful.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Woodford said:


> Thanks for the info Troy, stuff like that is always super useful.



It's not as comprehensive as I woulda liked, but it's all I know so far. I'm testing the Mythic SG now. Funny they don't suggest, nor recommend, using any kind of an extender, (again, likely due to sufficient open time). I'm comparing brushed vs sprayed also.


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