# Mass to start enforcing?



## RCP

_At a recent safety workshop held in Waltham, Mass on 9/17/2010 it was learned that the EPA, DOS and OSHA are going to work together to insure companies comply with regulations of both RRP and OSHA. It was reported that if an EPA or DOS RRP inspector discovers OSHA violations that they would report it to the local OSHA office. Conversely OSHA will do the same reciprocally._




More here.....


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## RCP

Bill, you mentioned somewhere else that you have not seen much enforcement, it seems Mass. is taking a much stronger stance on RRP.
Have you seen this?



> For those Massachusetts renovators, there has been yet another wrinkle in the laundry list of RRP amendments. Renovators are now required to keep a log detailing the comings and goings of each worker. Workers must sign in once they enter the work area and sign out when they leave.




More here

Follow the link to McCaddens blog where someone asks about RRP vs Deleading.


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## aaron61

Doesn't RRP conflict with some OSHA regulations? Like ladders on plastic?


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## y.painting

No, you're supposed to make holes in the plastic. And then duct tape the opening around each ladder leg :whistling2:


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## RCP

aaron61 said:


> Doesn't RRP conflict with some OSHA regulations? Like ladders on plastic?


That's a whole 'nother can of worms Aaron, it is explained here pretty well.

OHSA has long had requirements to protect workers working with LBP. With OHSA, there is no "de minimus" level of lead, meaning workers may be required to have ppe, blood monitoring, respirators and in some cases, air monitoring is required. 
Signs are another conflicting rule, as explained here.


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## dubinpainting

That sucks.......


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## NEPS.US

Just say NO!


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## plainpainter

you gotta be a fool if you allow yourself to work on these projects. It's simple companies are not complying at all - I ain't seeing it.


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## daArch

RCP said:


> Bill, you mentioned somewhere else that you have not seen much enforcement, it seems Mass. is taking a much stronger stance on RRP.
> Have you seen this?


Chris, 

That "meeting" was said to have been held on sept 17. I have yet to see ANY compliance. 

I have visited all sorts of work sites and have seen nothing indicating any concerns. 

I have seen yard signs out front and contractors' vehicles and have seen no indication of containment. 

The chatter I hear is one of "Don't ask, don't tell"


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## plainpainter

I live north of Bill, and I agree with him 100%. I imagine if you are a high visibility job in the middle of Boston that's one thing. But I saw next door gut 3 rooms down to the studs in the last couple of months, and the work has a building permit, lawn sign, whole nine yards in a house that is 150 years old. And not once did I see any of this fabled lead contamination going on. And this is in the most scrutinized town in the state when it comes to building permits. 

I am afraid this epa crap has unecessarily scared me out of doing a lot of work.


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## straight_lines

NEPS.US said:


> Just say NO!


 I agree, if everyone did say no to these jobs, the angry mob of homeowners would get this crap fixed.


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## daArch

Dan,

I just completed an install in Boston on Comm Ave (between Berkeley & Clarendon), and I saw NO containment on the three renovations that were close by. 

I've been to a large renovation on Otis St in Newton a few times (as the HO adds more rooms) - an older home, complete renovation plus lots of exterior work - no containment. 

So, I wonder, PERHAPS if it is a total renovation where the HO is out of the building for the duration, does it count as children occupied? Do they need to contain as they go if no one is living in the house? I don't know. 

But then the job I did last week in Lexington which was occupied by 4 children under 6, the painters didn't even pretend to contain.


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## NEPS.US

Lexington and you didnt even call me for lunch??


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## PressurePros

I guess the non enforcement you guys have seen is like rolling the dice. I've seen drunk drivers weaving all over the road and no cop around to stop them. On the other hand I have a friend that got caught twice, spent 30 days in jail, another two years reporting to a probation officer, license suspended for 2 years. I've seen pressure washing hacks running wastewater straight into storm drains with no negative consequence and I have heard companies getting fined for $10G's for a first offense.


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## daArch

NEPS.US said:


> Lexington and you didnt even call me for lunch??


You still working there? SHEEET ! If I had know, I woulda called. I was on Hancock about 400 yds from the Green


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## RCP

That is too bad, I'd hope to see the state's that take it over do a little better. My own state has openly stated they will spend more on education rather than enforcement.


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## NEPS.US

daArch said:


> You still working there? SHEEET ! If I had know, I woulda called. I was on Hancock about 400 yds from the Green


Yup - we will be there for at least another 2 years for NC and another 5 for yearly maintenance contracts. I'm dug in like a tick. Plus another site on the other side of Lexington. I love driving back and forth between sites thru Lexington center seeing all of the painting companies working on homes from the 17-1800's with no sign of protection. I said from the start of this mess that enforcement will always be a issue. I dont mind them swinging the stick but they need to enforce on a consistant basis.


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## plainpainter

PressurePros said:


> I guess the non enforcement you guys have seen is like rolling the dice. I've seen drunk drivers weaving all over the road and no cop around to stop them. On the other hand I have a friend that got caught twice, spent 30 days in jail, another two years reporting to a probation officer, license suspended for 2 years. I've seen pressure washing hacks running wastewater straight into storm drains with no negative consequence and I have heard companies getting fined for $10G's for a first offense.


So what do you do? Be the honest guy and continue wasting gas delivering estimates 2X and 3X the competition that isn't following the rules? Or do what they do?

At some point I'd think the government is opening themselves up for lawsuit. If an honest contractor continually is trying to do the right thing and is going out of business for it - then the government is liable/culpable for undo duress both financial and emotional. If they can't enforce then the law should be stricken off. I'm scared as heck of the threats - yet I continue to see the hacks grinding happily away with lead based duststorms all over the place. It's ridiculous. Do I continue another year of observation for '11 to see what happens?


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## PressurePros

Welcome to gov't regulation, Dan. 

If they are going to make laws and collect fines they need to use that money to do public awareness campaigns and fine the hell out of businesses and home owners that cut corners with non-certified contractors.


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## plainpainter

You know Ken, I'd be happy with a "We're not gonna fine $37,500 for the first two years - but fine in the neighborhood of $300 initially and give everyone a chance to realize we're out their enforcing"

I'd go out tomorrow and work away and accept any $300 fine to see if they're really serious with this. As it is - I feel like they've scared the honest guy out of $hit load of business and left it to the hack so now they can go make more money at our expense. I am about to shop some insurance companies to see if they'll insure me against these fines, so I can go and work again and compete at the same level of non-confirmation. Sort of like an rrp bond - if you get caught - the insurance pays the bill.


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## Schmidt & Co.

PressurePros said:


> fine the hell out of businesses and home owners


Only when the HO gets fined will this situation change.......


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## RCP

plainpainter said:


> You know Ken, I'd be happy with a "We're not gonna fine $37,500 for the first two years - but fine in the neighborhood of $300 initially and give everyone a chance to realize we're out their enforcing"


There is a fairly complex fine schedule here.

Fines start @ $130, but sadly no fines for HO's!


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## daArch

Chris,

What was that link for? I only got some weird google doc page.

Dan, 

Granted I am speaking only from rumor, but as I understand those rumors (that I did NOT start - for once), Mass fines are much less than federal. I do not have the energy nor time at the moment to research and post now.

But you're right, the whole enforcement of this law is a big F.U. 

I still think the law is well intentioned, and needed. And I am also still convinced the implementation is just a typical bureaucratic cluster phuck .

And the individual states taking over adds another layer of crap. Some poor schmo up in your neck of the woods may have a chance to work three states - MA, NH, & ME. So that's three times the costs for certification and registration. Plus three times the hassles of dealing with slightly different regs. 

It's mind boggling how completely a few bozos can screw something up.


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## RCP

I guess if you are not using gmail, link no worky, sorry.
Go here, and look for the attachment on the mid right.

About page 40 was the fee schedule.

These are the EPA Rules, the states that have taken over may have different fines, like Utah, which capped it at 10k.


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## plainpainter

I've stopped doing research into this RRP, but according to a plumber friend of mine - they changed the rules recently so that homeowners will also be punished as well as contractors. And the 6 SF rule has been shrunk down to the area of a wall outlet. Anyone heard/seen a similar thing? Maybe just a mass thing.


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## plainpainter

Gave Bill a call this morning to hear more of his thoughts 'offline' about what is going on in the trades pertaining to the RRP rules. Great conversation {sorry Bill for talking your ass off} But it occurred to me what is lacking in the trades now and what I have noticed over the years. It seems to me there is no comraderie among contractors when the trades becomes filled with bottom feeders, hacks, & lowballer scum-bags.

So I can't really prove this - but I'd like to offer a 'law/theorem/axiom' as to whether or not your trade is in the dumpster or not. But I believe that comraderie among contractors is inversely proportional to the amount your trade has been whored out.

I have to say it's been real lonely the past few years up in my parts - it's tough to find comraderie anymore - and I believe that's due to my law I stated above, if there isn't much comraderie - then the industry is filled with whores, at least in my neck of the woods. 

Again - thanks Bill for all the greats heads up. Nice to hear from someone else with similar points of view of how the trades are these days.


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## daArch

Dan,

I enjoyed our chat. (I used to talk to more colleagues more often on the phone, but I've let that "reaching out" slide). Thanks for calling. 

As many issues as I have had this past summer with the ineptness, pettiness, vindictiveness, and unprofessionalism of leadership and management of the NGPP, one thing I will always be thankful for is the organization's ability to build camaraderie within the rank and file members. 

From what I have seen of the PDCA, this is also true of the NE council. Especially the chapters based in your area. There are many flaws in every organization (I think I have found all in the NGPP :whistling2: ) but the networking and bringing together of local craftspeople is a strong asset. 

Being a solo shop it is easy to hunker down and not see the whole picture. We all know there are whores in every trade, but not every tradesperson is a *****. I thoroughly believe that trade organizations attract the true professionals. I am not saying that to BE a true pro you MUST belong to one, I'm just saying the whores are NOT usually members

For instance, that traveling commercial installer I referenced, he belonged to the NGPP for one year. He quit because he did not feel membership brought him more work.


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## PressurePros

Dan's a smart guy and interesting to talk to. His internet persona on the other hand... 

:blink:


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## Dean CRCNA

plainpainter said:


> I've stopped doing research into this RRP, but according to a plumber friend of mine - they changed the rules recently so that homeowners will also be punished as well as contractors. And the 6 SF rule has been shrunk down to the area of a wall outlet. Anyone heard/seen a similar thing? Maybe just a mass thing.


Not an EPA change, so if it is happening, it's just in Mass.


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## plainpainter

PressurePros said:


> Dan's a smart guy and interesting to talk to. His internet persona on the other hand...
> 
> :blink:


what is that thing?


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## Workaholic

Looks like an alpaca to me.


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## Dean CRCNA

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Only when the HO gets fined will this situation change.......


I've mentioned this before, but when you are doing an estimate, you really don't know if you are going to have to follow the RRP or the Lead Safe Housing Rule (HUD's LSHR) ... and neither does the homeowner.

Under the LSHR, the homeowner is the responsible party ... not the contractor. The homeowner can be the one to get the fine.


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## PressurePros

plainpainter said:


> what is that thing?


Turd Beast


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## plainpainter

PressurePros said:


> Turd Beast


LOL - Turd beast - I think Sean has correctly identified this creature - but the ears look they were photoshopped off.


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