# BM "Advance" primer? Has anyone used it?



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Im curious if anyone has used BM Advance primer yet? I would be using it on MDF. Feedback? Thanks.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

we have a few who tired it all hated it. "too thin, coverage was crap, and forever dry" this was before they changed it. since then no one has tried it. However, if you do use it i would like to know how the "new" works


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

We'll do. Im mostly curious on how well it sands. Back in the day when I did trim packs on a regular basis, we used white lacquer undercoater and it sanded awesome but I really dont wanna go there.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have Mike, and use oil primer when I can instead. The cure time to powder is what I didn't like. If you don't mind waiting then its a great primer that will sand dead flat with great enamel holdout.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> I have Mike, and use oil primer when I can instead. The cure time to powder is what I didn't like. If you don't mind waiting then its a great primer that will sand dead flat with great enamel holdout.


I was waiting for you to come along Tommy :thumbup: What kind of cure time to sand? Considering it the NW and the damp season? If its more than 24hrs I might go another route. Either way, its still getting two coats Advance SG over the primer and Im looking forward to finally getting to spray the stuff :thumbup: Yes, more of my never ending jobsite photos posted on FB all day :whistling2:


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

Woodland said:


> I was waiting for you to come along Tommy :thumbup: What kind of cure time to sand? Considering it the NW and the damp season? If its more than 24hrs I might go another route. Either way, its still getting two coats Advance SG over the primer and Im looking forward to finally getting to spray the stuff :thumbup: Yes, more of my never ending jobsite photos posted on FB all day :whistling2:


old stuff was 2-3 days before it was "workable" cannot tell you on the new stuff. "Rep say" 8 hours, but over the years i trust the ones putting it on vs what the the rep say.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

madochio said:


> old stuff was 2-3 days before it was "workable" cannot tell you on the new stuff. "Rep say" 8 hours, but over the years i trust the ones putting it on vs what the the rep say.


Thanks. I called my BM rep after I read your first post and he didnt know anything about the primer being changed. He actually seemed to not have much experience with the primer period.  He is still a great rep and has always been very helpful :thumbsup:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

The reason I am considering the Advance primer is I feel a solvent based primer would defeat the whole purpose of using a WB oil. Also, I have had problems in the past applying oil over latex primers with fish eyes. I figured this would be a good route. If it needs to sit a couple days I can handle it. Im going for it. Updates coming next week


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

that or smart prime, we have had better feedback on smart primer vs advance


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

madochio said:


> that or smart prime, we have had better feedback on smart primer vs advance


Thanks. I've never used Smart Prime either. I havent done much new work lately. I guess thats WB?


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

water based oil, same idea as advance. they work on the same idea, but the smart prime is far less $$ and more "battle tested"


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

madochio said:


> water based oil, same idea as advance. they work on the same idea, but the smart prime is far less $$ and more "battle tested"


Thanks. I have seen quite a few guys mention SP here but havent used it. Maybe that is a better route? Perhaps its time to make another call to the paint store? :yes:


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Very good analysis. Slow dry, mediocre hide, sands great to a fine powder, excellent enamel holdout.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks. Looks like its going to be Advance after all. I just called the paint store and they dont carry Smart Prime and I dont really care to track some down. The place is heated and will be drying overnight regardless of what I use, so I guess I get to do my review after all


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I like BM Superior better, give it a try is cheaper than Advance primer


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## xr4ticrew (Nov 24, 2007)

I haven't used advance primer, usually Coverstain on MDF. Anything WB will cause the MDF to roughen too much in my exp.


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## Mod Paint Works (Jul 2, 2010)

Ohh, I have a project coming up... MDF built ins. Excited to hear your review, Woodland. Jeez, was unaware there was an Advance primer. What about Fresh Start or Zinsser 123?


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Mod Paint Works said:


> Ohh, I have a project coming up... MDF built ins. Excited to hear your review, Woodland. Jeez, was unaware there was an Advance primer. What about Fresh Start or Zinsser 123?


I was unaware too til I saw it sitting on the shelf at the paint store the other day. I wanna try it, so Advance it is. :thumbup:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

madochio said:


> water based oil, same idea as advance. they work on the same idea, but the smart prime is far less $$ and more "battle tested"


I talked with my Zinsser / RustOleum rep tonight and she said smart prime is not alkyd at all. It's a low voc all purpose WB primer with the benefits of alkyd including sealing water stains etc. I've even used it with mixed success on cedar bleed. It wasn't always effective so i went back to cover stain or slow dry oil to make sure no bleed. I used smart prime on the last couple jobs and it dried real fast and sanded nice. I'm looking forward to hearing your review of Advance primer Mike, as I'm putting some samples together for my local BM rep. She's comping me the primer and all 3 sheens of advance and I'm doing some brush outs on mdf trim. Some for her, some for me.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

i will say that the hide on advance is good, but the sand time is the major issue for most. I did use smart prime on a ceiling fix (leaky toilet, another issue, not going to get into it) and was happy with it. pls let me know how this goes. I have had a lot of people ask on this one and have little to go by. if it is like the undercoater bm 21700 then i can relate to it


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

Damon T said:


> I talked with my Zinsser / RustOleum rep tonight and she said smart prime is not alkyd at all. It's a low voc all purpose WB primer with the benefits of alkyd including sealing water stains etc. I've even used it with mixed success on cedar bleed. It wasn't always effective so i went back to cover stain or slow dry oil to make sure no bleed. I used smart prime on the last couple jobs and it dried real fast and sanded nice. I'm looking forward to hearing your review of Advance primer Mike, as I'm putting some samples together for my local BM rep. She's comping me the primer and all 3 sheens of advance and I'm doing some brush outs on mdf trim. Some for her, some for me.


i would still use the "old school" slow dry oil on cedar. I hear the same song from the "rep" as well..( agian I do not trust rep vs "real world") I will not say that smart prime will work on cedar or redwood... I will say that it has worked on MDF and millwork. waterstains have been an issue with some. BTW what does she define as low VOC??? last i knew it was not a low VOC? then again i have been wrong more times then i care to amit.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Mike in my usage this Fall it was 48 hrs to get a full powder sanding of Advance primer. Humidity is pretty high here, but it was probably 50-65% when I used it. Anything less and it would gum up paper. 

I just trust a good oil primer for enamel holdout better than a wb primer. I have been using insulx aqua lock plus this week and really like it. IDK how it would perform for advanced enamel. Most of my advance work was primed with BM long oil and/or SW easy sand oil. 

https://picasaweb.google.com/johnsonhomeco/AquaLockWbPrimer?authuser=0&feat=directlink


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Mike in my usage this Fall it was 48 hrs to get a full powder sanding of Advance primer. Humidity is pretty high here, but it was probably 50-65% when I used it. Anything less and it would gum up paper.
> 
> I just trust a good oil primer for enamel holdout better than a wb primer. I have been using insulx aqua lock plus this week and really like it. IDK how it would perform for advanced enamel. Most of my advance work was primed with BM long oil and/or SW easy sand oil.
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/johnsonhomeco/AquaLockWbPrimer?authuser=0&feat=directlink


 Thanks Tommy. It dawned on me last night that Thanksgiving will give me an extra day for primer to dry since I will shoot primer on Wed. I havent also forgotten the request for feedback on Advance either. Soon as I finish this one I will shoot you an email


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Any time Mike. I am waiting till I can test the flat on drywall. I will do a room in my house and let it fully cure then test scrub and scratch resistance. 

The old flat oils were amazing. If it fills your paper it isn't ready to sand. I could have probably done a lighter coat, but I needed to build.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Finally tried the stuff out today. I used a 411. Sprays nice, lays down well, covers ok, defineatly went farther than I anticipated (looks like I get to bring a couple gallons back) dries pretty slow, but its also that time of year around here. Monday I will see how it sands.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Why go through all the trouble of masking off wall - why not spray the trim first and then cut and roll walls last? - sorry to derail.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Why go through all the trouble of masking off wall - why not spray the trim first and then cut and roll walls last? - sorry to derail.


This could be just a trim package only, no walls? I've done those... what a pita!


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> Why go through all the trouble of masking off wall - why not spray the trim first and then cut and roll walls last? - sorry to derail.


No problem Danny. Normally that would be the productive way. Im not doing the walls on this one. Its a remodel addition. The HO painted all the walls before the trim was even installed.  My first thought when I first saw the job was brush trim, but the HO insisted on a sprayed finish. So thats what I bid for. I generally still mask walls after first coat on walls before spraying trim, but only one strip of paper and also not quite to the extent of fine taping I did on this one. The real PITA was all the wood floors, carpet, cabinets, tile, fixtures, etc were also installed. No big deal. All the masking was figured into the bid. I also figured in 8 hrs just for unmasking.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

madochio said:


> we have a few who tired it all hated it. "too thin, coverage was crap, and forever dry" this was before they changed it. since then no one has tried it. However, if you do use it i would like to know how the "new" works


I should have listened to you. Pretty much everything you said. I let it sit several days and it still sanded like chit. I see absolutely no benefit to using this product. :no:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I agree with you Mike, after using it on two jobs. I would not use it again. I wonder how SW wall & wood sands? Maybe Scott can tell us how it works, I think he was using that on a PS video.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Damon T said:


> I talked with my Zinsser / RustOleum rep tonight and she said smart prime is not alkyd at all. It's a low voc all purpose WB primer with the benefits of alkyd including sealing water stains etc. I've even used it with mixed success on cedar bleed. It wasn't always effective so i went back to cover stain or slow dry oil to make sure no bleed. I used smart prime on the last couple jobs and it dried real fast and sanded nice. I'm looking forward to hearing your review of Advance primer Mike, as I'm putting some samples together for my local BM rep. She's comping me the primer and all 3 sheens of advance and I'm doing some brush outs on mdf trim. Some for her, some for me.


Smart prime is WB and pretty popular around here. I've experienced some bleed through going over some dark stained cabinets but should do pretty well on MDF. Not sure how it'd be under the Advance. 
Sorry to hear about the issues with the Advance Primer Mike. As you said the other night - hate to use a customer as a guinea pig but ya' gotta' give the new stuff a try eventually and you'd think it's be the best to use with the Advance topcoat. Coverstain is usually a good bet. Let us know what you end up using under the Advance and how you feel about the finished product.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I agree with you Mike, after using it on two jobs. I would not use it again. I wonder how SW wall & wood sands? Maybe Scott can tell us how it works, I think he was using that on a PS video.


I will have to look into that one. Is it waterbourne? I went back to oil which is what I am familiar with today and used SW "Easy Sand" today. As for Benjamin Moore, I will say this.....The Advance primer didnt happen to meet my needs. Nothing against BM in general. I still like their products. My rep has offered to reimburse me for lost time and also the materials on this particular job. You cant beat that. :thumbsup: And who knows? Maybe they will make some changes on that particular product?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Yes Mike is Latex check it out


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Here is on Topcoat Review :thumbsup:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Yes Mike is Latex check it out


Cool. Thanks Edgar :thumbsup:


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

thanks for the info on said product i will continue to not sell it. sad thou most BM products are good (primers are one of the best line i have) but advance not so much.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

madochio said:


> thanks for the info on said product i will continue to not sell it. sad thou most BM products are good (primers are one of the best line i have) but advance not so much.


Benjamin Moore makes great products :thumbsup: I guess they dropped the ball on the Advance. It happens.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

It just takes to long to cure and sand to a powder easily. Only thing that needs improvement imo.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Mike, You sprayed that primer when it was freeken cold in the house (50 degrees) do you think that's a fair evaluation of the product under said environment?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Woodland said:


> I should have listened to you. Pretty much everything you said. I let it sit several days and it still sanded like chit. I see absolutely no benefit to using this product. :no:


I absolutely love this primer. Sprays just like oil, I used a 3-10 ff tip like Tommy suggested. Sprayed these doors last Friday, These are solid mdf doors that came pre primed a light gray color. I let them dry over the weekend and they sanded like a dream today.

I used my camera phone so these pictures suck

Pat


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Although I want to know how it is for a next day sand. That is very important for us.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Although I want to know how it is for a next day sand. That is very important for us.


I have several more doors I'm going to prime this week, I will let you know.

Pat


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Better primers out there, but advance sprays out beautiful in the semi gloss version. It looks like oil when dry.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> I absolutely love this primer. ....... I let them dry over the weekend and they sanded like a dream today.
> 
> Pat



Good to know. I found a half gallon from another job, so hopefully I can give this stuff a try. 

I can't see how a new product that is comparative to other brands would not hold to the properties that are VERY important for workability and ease. So, I do find your experience encouraging.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

funny for the 1st time in a long time i talked a con't out of advance and since i do not have a "replacement" for said product yet. he asked me about the new pro classic water/ oil dealio. anyone use this yet? if you any feedback would be nice


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Yes, Zinsser 123 gives you better finish


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

madochio said:


> funny for the 1st time in a long time i talked a con't out of advance and since i do not have a "replacement" for said product yet. he asked me about the new pro classic water/ oil dealio. anyone use this yet? if you any feedback would be nice


Do yourself a favor if your looking for a water/ oil hybrid and set your nav to BM. My experiences out of the can with no adds says advance is far more workable and does the best job of an oil clone. For me the open time and workability of PC didn't approach advance! Although advance is no Impervo it has a short learning curve and it's final appearance is very good .


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

alertchief said:


> Do yourself a favor if your looking for a water/ oil hybrid and set your nav to BM. My experiences out of the can with no adds says advance is far more workable and does the best job of an oil clone. For me the open time and workability of PC didn't approach advance! Although advance is no Impervo it has a short learning curve and it's final appearance is very good .


From what I understand, Advance is not a "hybrid". It is an oil product, suspended in a latex vehicle. :blink: My technical jargon is terrible, and when the technology was explained to me it was dumb'd WAY down so please forgive.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

alertchief said:


> Do yourself a favor if your looking for a water/ oil hybrid and set your nav to BM. My experiences out of the can with no adds says advance is far more workable and does the best job of an oil clone. For me the open time and workability of PC didn't approach advance! Although advance is no Impervo it has a short learning curve and it's final appearance is very good .


funny i just talked to a con't who said nearly word for word that same thing. dries way to fast and brush marks everywhere. the job was spec'd for said product he wanted to use SI oil, which was a far cry from PC. then again nothing is.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> From what I understand, Advance is not a "hybrid". It is an oil product, suspended in a latex vehicle. :blink: My technical jargon is terrible, and when the technology was explained to me it was dumb'd WAY down so please forgive.


i heard the same thing..... i am not sure what that means. :blink: when i hear paint and vehicle i think of a work truck


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

BrushJockey said:


> I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!


I was going to point out webster's definition but now I don't have to! Thanks !!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

madochio said:


> funny for the 1st time in a long time i talked a con't out of advance and since i do not have a "replacement" for said product yet. he asked me about the new pro classic water/ oil dealio. anyone use this yet? if you any feedback would be nice


I haven't yet, am planning to do some shop testing in Jan. Advance has a learning curve but once you adjust the finish quality is fantastic, I am sure PC/hybrid would as well. Only thing I am unsure of with advance is the finish durability over time vs other enamels.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

As far as the primer goes here is a sneak peak at some testing I have done until I can publish the full article. 

Application in this example was done with a 4" microfiber over yellow pine that had been stained and cleared with poly. It was thoroughly sanded and cleaned before application. 

I had to wait 36 hrs to get it to sand to a powder. The knots bled through, and there was little to no hiding or sealing. A couple of coats of cs from a rattle can was required to seal them. 




























Finish product, three top coats Advance satin shot through an hvlp.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> I have several more doors I'm going to prime this week, I will let you know.
> 
> Pat


Primed these doors yesterday and 24 hours later it powered up nicely. I did thin it a little more then the first time because I was runny a little low and did not want to get another gallon. 

Just wanted to update about the next day thing. btw the pink shade you seeing is from the camera on my phone.

Pat


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Pat is your humidity low there?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Pat is your humidity low there?


Seems low, been windy but just looked it up and it says 66%. Maybe that's because the its early evening or something.

I think the main factor on drying times for this product is the type of surface you are putting it on. These were pre primed mdf doors. Which we all know the primer that these things come with is junk. I'm guessing the dry time would take much longer on something that is completely sealed. New wood I would imagine should be good to go after 24 hours.

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SL - Looks like it sprayed nicely through your HVLP and gave you a great looking finished product. What size tip and how much thinning?
I've been looking for a waterborne product that I could run through my HVLP and get good results on trim and doors (especially doors). I've been hoping the Advance might be it.

Dan


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Dan - if I was blindfolded and was asked to spray this product through my airless and did not know the product. I would swear it was oil. I'm talking about the primer. The advance finish, you can tell its waterbase, it has that sound and pattern of a wb.

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> Dan - if I was blindfolded and was asked to spray this product through my airless and did not know the product. I would swear it was oil. I'm talking about the primer. The advance finish, you can tell its waterbase, it has that sound and pattern of a wb.
> 
> Pat


Pat, 
Good to hear about the primer. Have you ever sprayed the Advance finish through an HVLP? I get great results with oil but not so much with waterbased products. Hoping the "hybrids" might be the answer but haven't experimented with the Advance yet.
Dan


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## dvab (Mar 12, 2008)

BrushJockey said:


> I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!


I tend to think of hybrids as latex/oil emulsions. Advance is an alkyd suspended in water - no latex to be found - which is not the case in some of the other products out there. Once Advance is dry, all you do have left is an alkyd coating like SI which means you get the same adhesion, hardness and durability as SI. No surprise with the lack of tannin holdout for the primer since the water simply carries the tannin to the surface before the coating dries.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> SL - Looks like it sprayed nicely through your HVLP and gave you a great looking finished product. What size tip and how much thinning?
> I've been looking for a waterborne product that I could run through my HVLP and get good results on trim and doors (especially doors). I've been hoping the Advance might be it.
> 
> Dan


A slight reduction about 5%, and a 1.5. I live in a fairly humid climate though.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

BrushJockey said:


> I would think "oil suspended in water" pretty much would define hybrid..?!


Its not though, its a different type of technology. "Hybrids" have been around for years, the old Moorgard was a "hybrid". Sikkens Rubbol is a "hybrid". Advance is a Waterborne Alkyd, not a "hybrid".


Think of it like hybrid vehicles. The Prius has a gas motor and an electric motor. The electric motor runs in stop and go traffic usually under 15mph, over 15mph and your're running on a standard gasoline engine. The Volt uses an electric motor solely for power, it does use standard gasoline to power a generator to run the electric motor when the batteries are out. The gasoline generator is not providing power to the wheels. So the Volt is not a hybrid, although it may seem similar, its not.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix. 

It is a fantastic finish.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix.


Its Paint VooDoo. I ordered a shrunken paint can, some enchanted rollers, and a holy paint brush from Ebay :jester:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Just admit it, BM used magic to make Advance. Everyone knows oil and water don't mix.
> 
> It is a fantastic finish.


I still dont like the primer. As for the Advance Enamel? I never really got a chance to use it. My local BM dealer totally droppped the ball on a color match so I went with SW Pro Classic Water/Oil. Personally, I think that stuff is garbage. That job from my original post turned into a complete disaster. I finally went with products Im used to. I ended up reshooting everything with SW Easy Sand and two coats of Pro Classic Oil. Everything ende3d up with 5 and 6 coats.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodland said:


> I still dont like the primer. As for the Advance Enamel? I never really got a chance to use it. My local BM dealer totally droppped the ball on a color match so I went with SW Pro Classic Water/Oil. Personally, I think that stuff is garbage. That job from my original post turned into a complete disaster. I finally went with products Im used to. I ended up reshooting everything with SW Easy Sand and two coats of Pro Classic Oil. Everything ende3d up with 5 and 6 coats.


Even my SW supplier won't say anything nice about their water/oil product. He kinda' acts like it doesn't exist.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Even my Rep said I shouldnt have used it.  I was like...."ok, your supposed to tell me that BEFORE!" They did make it right. Sorta. Some free products. But, BM insisted I send a bill for labor on lost time with the primer. :thumbup: Heck, I should just start complaining all the time :whistling2: Unfortuneatly, thats not my style though. :no:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Its not though, its a different type of technology. "Hybrids" have been around for years, the old Moorgard was a "hybrid". Sikkens Rubbol is a "hybrid". Advance is a Waterborne Alkyd, not a "hybrid".
> 
> 
> Think of it like hybrid vehicles. The Prius has a gas motor and an electric motor. The electric motor runs in stop and go traffic usually under 15mph, over 15mph and your're running on a standard gasoline engine. The Volt uses an electric motor solely for power, it does use standard gasoline to power a generator to run the electric motor when the batteries are out. The gasoline generator is not providing power to the wheels. So the Volt is not a hybrid, although it may seem similar, its not.


Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.


The wb/alk are the best of both worlds. You get the oil performance with the ability to clean up with warm soap and water.i would still concerned them a hybrid product since they take the oil resins and make water the "solvent"..two into one..to me they still smell like an oil just not as bad. There is a difference between water born and water based. Water born means it cleans up with water, but still has resins that are not water soluable. Water based means that the resins clean up with water.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Sorry, your analogy doesn't work for me. In the case of the car it's an either/or thing. With the waterborne/alkyd paint the properties must work as one (not independently) with each other. How is a WB/ALK different from a hybrid? Not trying to be a smart ass or difficult - just curious.


A hybrid product is one that incorporates both "latex" and "oil" resins into the same can. Like he stated with the old B.M. exterior paints - they are a "latex" product for the most point, but incorporate alkyd resins as well, thus it's a hybrid.

Waterborne technology is only referring to the actual thinner being used, in this case, water. They've re-engineered an alkyd molecule, I'd assume to have near neutral buoyancy in H2O, that's how it is suspended in water. Where as practical experience with many oils from cooking to motor to paint, oil is usually too light and floats to the top. Throw in some surfactants for good measure, and *pooof* you have a water based oil paint, which by definition is a waterborne technology.

Just remember, latex paints when they first came out were suspended in paint thinner! We've all come to think latex/vinyl/acrylic as being naturally suspended by water, but in reality it took years to get those molecules to suspend in water as well. Heck there is still a Zinsser primer product that is latex resin in paint thinner - that's how it use be!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks for the replies.

Can still remember my dad (not a painter) using a latex on the outside of our house for the first time (mid sixties?) - "Well, this stuff is just plain [email protected]!!!"
The look on his face when he said it still makes me laugh.

As I've mentioned before, what I'm really looking for is a product that will spray out of an HVLP and level out like an oil with the dry time being closer to that of a waterbased product. Hope they are there or getting close


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

researchhound said:


> As I've mentioned before, what I'm really looking for is a product that will spray out of an HVLP and level out like an oil with the dry time being closer to that of a waterbased product. Hope they are there or getting close


Dan nailed it with his reply. Im not a chemist by any means, but Dan pretty much summed it up.

As far as your product, I know some of my customers and a member ( cant remember his name but hes posted pics ) here have had good luck spraying Aura Satin with HVLP setups.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Woodland said:


> Even my Rep said I shouldnt have used it.  I was like...."ok, your supposed to tell me that BEFORE!" They did make it right. Sorta. Some free products. But, BM insisted I send a bill for labor on lost time with the primer. :thumbup: Heck, I should just start complaining all the time :whistling2: Unfortuneatly, thats not my style though. :no:


It's cool they insisted on making it right.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> A hybrid product is one that incorporates both "latex" and "oil" resins into the same can. Like he stated with the old B.M. exterior paints - they are a "latex" product for the most point, but incorporate alkyd resins as well, thus it's a hybrid.


 Excellent point Dan. Remember Moorgard years back? That was a hybrid then-just no one was calling it such. Try to wash out a brush that had been in Country Redwood all day with some H20-not gonna happen:no:
You're were left with a sticky mess...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I always thought black was/is the worst. You have to keep a water bottle handy in the summer time as well. I will never be able to forget the smell.


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