# Re-staining question



## PaintProfessor (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey all-

I just met with a restauranteur who would like to create a whole new look for her restaurant. First off, she has a ton of wainscoting and other wood frames that are all stained an Early American color stain. They would like to go darker(close to a dark cherry). To get the best results, it really should get sanded/stripped to bare and re-stain, etc. However, I have heard of gel stains working over the existing wood...is this true?

Secondly, if we agree that sanding to bare wood is the best way, is wainscoting even sandable? I am thinking it is similar to veneer where there is only a thin layer of wood.

Any suggestions would be helpful...thanks!!


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Yes you can use gel stain or you can lightly sand and spray a stain/clearcoat mix. However from your question I am left wondering how much experience you have at this type of work. Stripping and refinishing is extremely labor intensive and expensive. You may be better off subbing this job to a company that does this type of workman regular basis.


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## PaintProfessor (Feb 28, 2008)

I definitely know that it is labor intensive to sand it down...I have done this type of work before, but there is SO much woodwork on this one. I almost think for the labor involved(if sanded/stripped) that it would be cheaper to replace some of the woodwork. Plus, with the doors and the thin layer of veneer always proves to be a tricky task.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Early American can be moved to dark cherry easily doing toner coats. Rather than sanding for adhesion, maybe shoot SealCoat then mix up your toner and make it cherry. HVLP would be perfect for this work.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

toner. use a finish coat tinted w stain. Hvlp is your prime applicator. I have a baby in my hands so small sentences today.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Striping = stupid. No money in it.


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

Certainly do not strip it. I would go the gel stain route. Have done it before, works well. You can then clear coat it. I know most guys here use different products but I've had great luck with Ceramathane (It's waterborne too so not much smell).


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Early American can be moved to dark cherry easily doing toner coats. Rather than sanding for adhesion, maybe shoot SealCoat then mix up your toner and make it cherry. HVLP would be perfect for this work.


toner coats...interesting, what brand do you usually use Jack?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

briancreary said:


> toner coats...interesting, what brand do you usually use Jack?


BAC works. ZAR and Old Masters are good for toning. Solid stains. I tend to use ZAR for toning. Typically I am mixing ZAR with sanding sealers. I get the stain color close and tone them out to match whatever it is I need to match.

This is a photo I used in another thread. Dont mind the orange arrow but the fireplace here was stained and then toned out so much that it looks like those kitchen cabinets that almost look painted. Hint of grain coming through. Photo was taken of dry penetrating stain prior.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Hang on, I'm confused. Are we talking Minwax Early American? Thats a pretty dark brown. How much darker do you need to be? How about a fresh round of early american?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Brian, you can tone with Ceramathane as well. Add water compatible dye concentrates (transtint) to it.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

The only problem I have with toners used in a clear base and sprayed on, is that the product, as best as I can word it, comes out "muddy" looking. Lose too much of the grain pattern. At least by using a gel-coat stain you can either keep the grain look or faux it in where it's needed. Maybe in the restaurant setting it isn't so important, but I could see it becoming an issue in a house. Another advantage of a gel-stain, is that it is easier to keep the consistency of the color through out the job even if you are doing just sections at a time.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> The only problem I have with toners used in a clear base and sprayed on, is that the product, as best as I can word it, comes out "muddy" looking. Lose too much of the grain pattern. At least by using a gel-coat stain you can either keep the grain look or faux it in where it's needed. Maybe in the restaurant setting it isn't so important, but I could see it becoming an issue in a house. Another advantage of a gel-stain, is that it is easier to keep the consistency of the color through out the job even if you are doing just sections at a time.


 I would probably go with a gel stain as well, just as Wolfgang mentions for control purposes. Depending on the finish that is on there now I would scuff sand or maybe a quick coat of shellac to get proper adhesion. You could also top coat with a urethane/stain combo product like polyshades if you still need to alter the color slightly after the gel stain. I have used the polyshades in a color like cherry which is light compared to the dark cherry you are looking for ,but it helps bring out the red-if necessary, and gives it a brightness over a darker cherry stain. I do not use these stain/poly combos on any raw wood, just for stuff like this to help tone a color or add a brightness, orange shellac can work as well to promote a brightness, but you have to make sure you are not going the wrong way in color. I would make them a sample in an inconspicuous spot so they can see what it will look like and you will know exactly what you need to do.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Early American can be moved to dark cherry easily doing toner coats. Rather than sanding for adhesion, maybe shoot SealCoat then mix up your toner and make it cherry. HVLP would be perfect for this work.





Paradigmzz said:


> toner. use a finish coat tinted w stain. Hvlp is your prime applicator. I have a baby in my hands so small sentences today.



i felt like a tardo when I saw Jack was quoted for the same thing and then realized he said it before me, until I saw the timestamp. Good minds think alike.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

The problem with gel stain or toner is that you are going to loose grain definition no matter which route you travel. you have already sealed the grain and you are "for all intense and purposes" topcoating the wood. Toning large open areas is not for the faint of heart. Thats why an HVLP with LIGHT passes (buildup) is necessarry. Gel stain is going to muddy it up just as quick, the difference is hand application vs. spray. In hand brushing or ragging, you can faux out grain, but you still are blocking the original grain patterns.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> The problem with gel stain or toner is that you are going to loose grain definition no matter which route you travel. you have already sealed the grain and you are "for all intense and purposes" topcoating the wood. Toning large open areas is not for the faint of heart. Thats why an HVLP with LIGHT passes (buildup) is necessarry. Gel stain is going to muddy it up just as quick, the difference is hand application vs. spray. In hand brushing or ragging, you can faux out grain, but you still are blocking the original grain patterns.


 Absolutely-no matter how you go you will end up with less true grain, unless you take off the existing finish and start from scratch-which is crazy in this case. A lot of high end dark cherry furniture I see has very little grain left showing as well, so I wouldn't think the loss of some of the grain will be a big problem.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Hang on, I'm confused. Are we talking Minwax Early American? Thats a pretty dark brown. How much darker do you need to be? How about a fresh round of early american?


Two different colors Scott. EA is closer to dark walnut with browns /blacks. The owner wants Cherry which has a lot more red in it.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> The problem with gel stain or toner is that you are going to loose grain definition no matter which route you travel. you have already sealed the grain and you are "for all intense and purposes" topcoating the wood. Toning large open areas is not for the faint of heart. Thats why an HVLP with LIGHT passes (buildup) is necessarry. Gel stain is going to muddy it up just as quick, the difference is hand application vs. spray. In hand brushing or ragging, you can faux out grain, but you still are blocking the original grain patterns.


Depends on your appliication techniques.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I usually use a couple brushes when doing these. One for application, and it doesn't have to go on heavy, and another old duster type brush for blending....almost dry-brushing. You'll have a greater amount of control over all aspects of gel staining by doing it this way. About the only time I use a rag is to rid the blending brush of any stain build-up on the bristles.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> I usually use a couple brushes when doing these. One for application, and it doesn't have to go on heavy, and another old duster type brush for blending....almost dry-brushing. You'll have a greater amount of control over all aspects of gel staining by doing it this way. About the only time I use a rag is to rid the blending brush of any stain build-up on the bristles.


 
This is the approach that we take as well. Another point that I raised in a Fiberglas door finishing thread: work on the large panels when it's cool, if possible. That gives more open time for blending/dry-brushing.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I wouldn't use gel for this. Trouble ahead.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For toning, are you guys adding color with pigment or dye?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> For toning, are you guys adding color with pigment or dye?


That pic I posted few posts back... I take that stain and mix it with sanding sealer and tone away. In some cases ive had to darken the stain mix for the toner and I'll use zar solid stains to deepen it. Takes little zar to change the appearance.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Using dye will help save transparency compared to pigment, IMO. If the particle size in a pigment stain is the size of the Empire State Building, the particle size of dye is one brick.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Using dye will help save transparency compared to pigment, IMO. If the particle size in a pigment stain is the size of the Empire State Building, the particle size of dye is one brick.


I'll have to try that. Thanks dean. Most of the time we tone it's to get the wood to look like those solid deep kitchen cabinets. Usually dark almost painted like. So more solids the better but baby steps.


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