# Painting Oak Cabinets - grain fill or ignore?



## Holland

Just curious how you treat Oak Cabinets when re-painting? 

Do you leave the grain "open" and ignore it, or do you grain-fill. 

This adds a lot of time one way or the other, and must be reflected in the preparation and cost.


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## Masterwork

If you're spraying, you have to fill it otherwise it looks awful.


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## Holland

Masterwork said:


> If you're spraying, you have to fill it otherwise it looks awful.


what is your method for doing this? 
Is there a way that is not extremely labor intensive? 

Wunderfill (thinned with water) and then sand back? Other?


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## wepainthouston

This is an old cabinet door that we painted recently without grain filler it is one coat of kilz oil base primer two coats of satin oil pro classic. Unless your customer is looking for a perfectly smooth finish they are more than Acceptable in appearance.


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## Masterwork

Yup. Zoom in and it looks like **** lol.


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## wepainthouston

I agree but it wasn’t within their budget to grain fill the doors they just wanted to change the color to sell the house.


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## Holland

wepainthouston said:


> I agree but it wasn’t within their budget to grain fill the doors they just wanted to change the color to sell the house.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you brush and roll that, or spray? 

Its a fine line to walk. 
When you're doing 30-40+ doors that have a detailed profile, the cost/time can add up quickly.


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## wepainthouston

We sprayed everything including the boxes with a Graco 9.5 hvlp #3 needle set thinning 10 percent.










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## finishesbykevyn

Yes. Oak doors are the most problamatic of them all. I just had to re- do some for a client because of this. Filling the grain is not necessary IMO but backroll/brushing your primer is mandatory. It will drive the paint into the crevasses leaving a more evenly painted surface.
I'm thinking from now on my process will be this. 1 coat of BIN, sprayed. 1 coat of another high build latex primer on the fronts and edges only, back rolled/brushed. Noone cares about the backs.. Then 1 or 2 more coats sprayed as normal. Always brush and roll the boxes on Oak or they will look just as bad. I absolutely see no benefit to spraying the bases on Oak Cabs.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Holland said:


> what is your method for doing this?
> Is there a way that is not extremely labor intensive?
> 
> Wunderfill (thinned with water) and then sand back? Other?


Check out goodfilla, very easy to use


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## Rbriggs82

I spray bin and then back brush the first coat of Breakthrough, frames get brushed and rolled. I give every client wanting to do it a fair warning that it will not me a perfectly smooth finish they will still see the grain.


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## ParamountPaint

I just paint the damn things. Coverstain, sprayed and backrolled. Sand. Spray finish.

Oak cabinets are gonna look like oak cabinets. I personally don't feel that the grain looks that bad, even with a brilliant white. Absent a huge amount of solid-surface countertops, I don't see the economics behind putting so much money into painting the old ones to look like perfection.

That said, we remodel kitchens, so I might have a bit of bias in my opinion. Often, we can do brand new cabinets for slightly more than patching up and painting old ones. It's all very situational.


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## finishesbykevyn

ParamountPaint said:


> I just paint the damn things. Coverstain, sprayed and backrolled. Sand. Spray finish.
> 
> Oak cabinets are gonna look like oak cabinets. I personally don't feel that the grain looks that bad, even with a brilliant white. Absent a huge amount of solid-surface countertops, I don't see the economics behind putting so much money into painting the old ones to look like perfection.
> 
> That said, we remodel kitchens, so I might have a bit of bias in my opinion. Often, we can do brand new cabinets for slightly more than patching up and painting old ones. It's all very situational.


That being said, I think the main thing is to atleast backroll one of the under coats or it will indeed look like poop.


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## Masterwork

Front filled, back unfilled. One coat of primer, two finish, all sprayed.


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## Redux

My answer to grain filling vs ignoring it, is to price it out both ways, provide samples for each, and let the client decide..

I’ve only painted oak cabinets once. I provided 2 finished sample doors for the client, one grain filled, the other not. I provided 2 separate estimates letting the client choose. There was close to 200 running feet of oak cabinetry & 26 oak passage doors...grain filling would have easily added $25K on to the cost. The client didn’t think it warranted the expense. I had removed the existing finishes prior to painting so the grain pictured is very pronounced.


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## [email protected]

I agree with Redux on this issue. It really comes down to what the customer is satisfied with in relation to appearance and cost. What we think is bad vs good cosmetically really isn’t our choice, it’s theirs. Each of us has an opinion but that doesn’t matter in the long run, although it may have an impact on customer decisions (as usual). I have yet to do a grain fill per customer request. Can’t imagine the extra cost to do so...


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## Masterwork

I can't see it adding 25k to the cost. Be specific about what you're doing, and make sure their expectations are reasonable.

For an extra $30 per opening, one coat of grain filler. For islands or flat areas with no doors, an extra $30 per linear foot. At least that's what I charge. It adds about 15 minutes per door, and less than 5 minutes per box for that lip of laminate.


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## Redux

Masterwork said:


> I can't see it adding 25k to the cost. Be specific about what you're doing, and make sure their expectations are reasonable.
> 
> For an extra $30 per opening, one coat of grain filler. For islands or flat areas with no doors, an extra $30 per linear foot. At least that's what I charge. It adds about 15 minutes per door, and less than 5 minutes per box for that lip of laminate.


Although discussing pricing is frowned upon @ PT, just to give you an idea, I get an extra $12.50/sq ft for 100% pore fill finishes. One cabinet running ft x 36” H = 6+ sq ft front & back including face frame which equates to a $75/running ft up-charge which is competitive in my market. 

Accordingly, for a 2.5 x 84” passage door (35 sq ft) I get $437.50 additional for 100% pore fill finish which is also competitive in my market.

At the stated rate, the up-charge for 100% pore fill on 26 doors = $11,375 and for 200 running ft of cabinets = $15K, so $25K is actually a bit lean.


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## Masterwork

I could never come close to that, here. People only paint their cabinets because it's cheaper than replacing them. As soon as you get that high, I think a lot of people would rather replace them.


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## finishesbykevyn

Masterwork said:


> I could never come close to that, here. People only paint their cabinets because it's cheaper than replacing them. As soon as you get that high, I think a lot of people would rather replace them.


 I don't think your reading his post properly. This ain't no mom and pop kitchen. He said 200 running feet of cabinets plus 26 full size passage doors.. Im thinking g this must either be a mansion or a commercial setting.


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> I don't think your reading his post properly. This ain't no mom and pop kitchen. He said 200 running feet of cabinets plus 26 full size passage doors.. Im thinking g this must either be a mansion or a commercial setting.


Yeah that's massive!


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## Masterwork

finishesbykevyn said:


> I don't think your reading his post properly. This ain't no mom and pop kitchen. He said 200 running feet of cabinets plus 26 full size passage doors.. Im thinking g this must either be a mansion or a commercial setting.


Yeah, I missed that. I thought the thread was about cabinets lol. I was trying to figure out who the hell pays 25k to paint their kitchen cabinets


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## Rbriggs82

Masterwork said:


> Yeah, I missed that. I thought the thread was about cabinets lol. I was trying to figure out who the hell pays 25k to paint their kitchen cabinets


A hair over 10k was my biggest to date.


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## ParamountPaint

I still think the non-filled ones look fine. Like someone above mentioned, it's up to the customer to decide. One may like to see the wood grain in the finish.

I don't care one way or the other. If they want them filled and I don't feel like dealing with it, it's easy enough to politely decline the job. If we were slow and needed to fill some schedule, I'd be happy to do it. Fortunately, we're in a position to be selective about what we are going to do, but if the situation changes, and everyone wants oak cabinets filled and painted, I suppose we'll start doing so.

Cabinet repaints usually land somewhere between 4 and 7k for us. These would be smaller kitchens, as I've never had a call to paint a large kitchen with lots of cabinets. These customers skew to remodel with new, which we can provide. Our average kitchen remodel is all over the map, but a smaller, simple one can usually be pulled off between 10 and 15K. The top end is limitless: you start moving walls, changing layout, flooring, lighting and the works, it can start creeping up to at least 40K and above. I'd say our average lands at around 50, but we've hit six figures a few times.


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## ParamountPaint

These turned out ok. Coverstain tinted dark gray, sanded, 2 spray coats. We went around with a tiny carbide scraper and cleaned up between the stiles and the panels before installing and everyone was happy enough. This was Breakthrough.


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## finishesbykevyn

ParamountPaint said:


> These turned out ok. Coverstain tinted dark gray, sanded, 2 spray coats. We went around with a tiny carbide scraper and cleaned up between the stiles and the panels before installing and everyone was happy enough. This was Breakthrough.


Do the 2x6's leave marks on the backs of your doors?


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## Redux

Masterwork said:


> Yeah, I missed that. I thought the thread was about cabinets lol. I was trying to figure out who the hell pays 25k to paint their kitchen cabinets


Maybe some computer tech giant’s founder/CEO & one of America’s wealthiest 40 Under 40...just maybe..


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## wepainthouston

We use the PSDR spray rack and drying system it’s been a game changer it doesn’t leave any marks on the cabinets. 


















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## Holland

wepainthouston said:


> We use the PSDR spray rack and drying system it’s been a game changer it doesn’t leave any marks on the cabinets.
> View attachment 110895
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> View attachment 110896
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That looks like a nice set-up! 
Is there more than one PSDR set-up? Which one do you have, where can I buy one?


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## Holland

ParamountPaint said:


> These turned out ok. Coverstain tinted dark gray, sanded, 2 spray coats. We went around with a tiny carbide scraper and cleaned up between the stiles and the panels before installing and everyone was happy enough. This was Breakthrough.


The adhesion and stain blocking is great with Coverstain - no risk of failure- but have never been able to get it smooth enough without a lot of effort.

I like 123 better when no risk of bleed through. The glycol (?) makes it level-out nicely, and dries smooth.


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## Masterwork

I've been using the doorrackpainter.com stuff. I'm a huge fan of it.


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## finishesbykevyn

wepainthouston said:


> We use the PSDR spray rack and drying system it’s been a game changer it doesn’t leave any marks on the cabinets.
> View attachment 110895
> 
> View attachment 110896
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool idea, but takes up soo much space!


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## wepainthouston

Holland said:


> That looks like a nice set-up!
> Is there more than one PSDR set-up? Which one do you have, where can I buy one?





Holland said:


> That looks like a nice set-up!
> Is there more than one PSDR set-up? Which one do you have, where can I buy one?


It is the standard spray rack and dryer rack system but we also bought the wave hangers and the euro clips so you don’t have to drill holes in the doors


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## wepainthouston

wepainthouston said:


> It is the standard spray rack and dryer rack system but we also bought the wave hangers and the euro clips so you don’t have to drill holes in the doors
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk











Cabinet Spray & Drying System


This system is the most efficient way to spray cabinet doors. By using this system we cut our cabinet painting time in half.




paintlifesupply.com






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## ParamountPaint

finishesbykevyn said:


> Do the 2x6's leave marks on the backs of your doors?


Not at this point of the operation. These were all dried on those plastic pyramids. It was probably 3 days after painting them that we tossed them on the 2xs to sort them out and wrap them up for transport.


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Cool idea, but takes up soo much space!


Kevyn, what racks do you use? Do they take up less space?
Do you like them?

I have Erecta-Racks. a little slow to set up and use, but take up almost no space when storying. Require drying clips or will leave lines.


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## Holland

Masterwork said:


> I've been using the doorrackpainter.com stuff. I'm a huge fan of it.


re: doorrackpainter.com.

They look nice, but don't you have to adjust them all the time for the different door sizes? Seems like that would be time-consuming. ?


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## Masterwork

Watch the videos they have. It's faster than you think. The only setup is the initial assembly. Then you just have to setup the lazy Susan thing each time. The drying racks stay assembled.


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## Holland

Masterwork said:


> Watch the videos they have. It's faster than you think. The only setup is the initial assembly. Then you just have to setup the lazy Susan thing each time. The drying racks stay assembled.


I watched the videos, but there are about 10 sizes of kitchen cabinet doors...
How does that work?


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## Holland

Masterwork said:


> Watch the videos they have. It's faster than you think. The only setup is the initial assembly. Then you just have to setup the lazy Susan thing each time. The drying racks stay assembled.


thanks. I'm going to try the lazy Susan, because it will work with my existing set-up and improve my spray station.


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## Masterwork

Holland said:


> I watched the videos, but there are about 10 sizes of kitchen cabinet doors...
> How does that work?


Those little aluminum rods adjust for each door. So, true, there is a min/max size you can do at any given time, but I've only had a few oddball sized things that were an issue. Like a 2 inch tall drawer front for a weird cutting board drawer thingy. 









Paint Doors On Both Sides & Store Them Wet, On Sale See Video | Drying rack diy, Painted doors, Paint drying rack


Feb 6, 2014 - The best regular & cabinet door painting system that will give an excellent horizontally sprayed loaded up smooth finish.




www.pinterest.ca


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## Rbriggs82

Holland said:


> I watched the videos, but there are about 10 sizes of kitchen cabinet doors...
> How does that work?


I stack the doors according to size before hand from small to large. It goes fast, one guy spraying and one stacking I can do a set of 30 doors both sides in under 45mins.


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## Rbriggs82

Holland said:


> thanks. I'm going to try the lazy Susan, because it will work with my existing set-up and improve my spray station.


I built my own lazy Susan. We use the normal spray rack and have it sit on the lazy Suzy I built that I can spin with my foot. The one they sell can't hold larger doors which is why I built my own.


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## Holland

Rbriggs82 said:


> I built my own lazy Susan. We use the normal spray rack and have it sit on the lazy Suzy I built that I can spin with my foot. The one they sell can't hold larger doors which is why I built my own.


Thought about doing that - good idea with foot control and to accommodate larger doors.

It would save some money, and could make it spec to my situation. Decided to buy their pre-made lazy susan spray rack, so I could try out their products, and because don't want to spend the time/energy right now customizing something.

Hopefully it will clamp easily onto Dewalt Sawhorses without modification.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Kevyn, what racks do you use? Do they take up less space?
> Do you like them?
> 
> I have Erecta-Racks. a little slow to set up and use, but take up almost no space when storying. Require drying clips or will leave lines.


 I've built a couple racks myself from dowels and 2x4. Similar to the electrician rack. Also a type of bakers rack. Ill attach photos.







They're OK. But may consider the doorrackpainter system because it's so compact and doesn't leave lines on your doors. However It looks like it may have its issues also .


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## Holland

I like the wall racks. If I had enough wall space I would do that too. 

How did you make the (red) rolling rack? Did you make that?


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## finishesbykevyn

No. I bought the red rack off a friend. Its kind of like a bakers rack.. Can fit like 30-40 doors on that thing.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Kevyn, what racks do you use? Do they take up less space?
> Do you like them?
> 
> I have Erecta-Racks. a little slow to set up and use, but take up almost no space when storying. Require drying clips or will leave lines.


Whats these drying clips you speak of?👀


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Whats these drying clips you speak of?👀


The drying clips are a recent introduction from E-R, and is the missing piece to that particular puzzle. They are meant to work like painter's pyramids.

In the past I have just put a row of tape on the bars to keep them from sticking (which worked, but added some T+M).

Full disclosure: I have 3 sets of clips, but have not tried them yet.

*FWIW - I believe they fit standard electricians galvanized conduit pipe, so they could be used for a DIY rack.


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## Holland

Space is at a premium, so I make it work. 

Not as nice as premium spray racks for sure, but can accommodate 20 full size doors, and packs down into 2 duffel bags (pictured below):


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> The drying clips are a recent introduction from E-R, and is the missing piece to that particular puzzle. They are meant to work like painter's pyramids.
> 
> In the past I have just put a row of tape on the bars to keep them from sticking (which worked, but added some T+M).
> 
> Full disclosure: I have 3 sets, but have not tried them yet.
> 
> *FWIW - I believe they fit standard electricians galvanized conduit pipe, so they could be used for a DIY rack.
> View attachment 110944
> 
> 
> View attachment 110945


Yes. Those could come in handy for sure!


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> The drying clips are a recent introduction from E-R, and is the missing piece to that particular puzzle. They are meant to work like painter's pyramids.
> 
> In the past I have just put a row of tape on the bars to keep them from sticking (which worked, but added some T+M).
> 
> Full disclosure: I have 3 sets of clips, but have not tried them yet.
> 
> *FWIW - I believe they fit standard electricians galvanized conduit pipe, so they could be used for a DIY rack.
> View attachment 110944
> 
> 
> View attachment 110945


Just tried to purchase some to Canada. $60 for Shipping! What the heck? Where do they come from?? Oh well.


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## Masterwork

Plus duty once it hits the border!


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## Ricks Painting

Holland said:


> The adhesion and stain blocking is great with Coverstain - no risk of failure- but have never been able to get it smooth enough without a lot of effort.
> 
> I like 123 better when no risk of bleed through. The glycol (?) makes it level-out nicely, and dries smooth.


 123 is def a nice product even for brush and roll


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## Respec

Like some others have mentioned, I offer grain filling as an option and explain the differences. When we are filling the grain, we shoot two coats of primer to build and help fill, then sand it good. That fills all the minor stuff. We only have to fill the heaviest grain at that point, which is usually more like touch up filling. Regardless, there is definitely more time involved and therefore should be more charged. It sometimes does get pricey, but I would rather not do the job than work for a song and dance, besides filling the grain kind of sucks anyways. I have definitely had people tell me they can buy cabinets for what we charge, and yes, junk cabinets are cheap, and if you want to install junk cabinets, knock yourself out, but good cabinets are not cheap. And when you factor in installation, counter tops, plumbers, etc., it usually is cheaper by far and an easy sell.


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## michaeljmann2000

Holland said:


> Just curious how you treat Oak Cabinets when re-painting?
> 
> Do you leave the grain "open" and ignore it, or do you grain-fill.
> 
> This adds a lot of time one way or the other, and must be reflected in the preparation and cost.


That is brutal trying to fill them but some customers expect miracles don't give them false hope. Cabinets look great when they are done right. Use high build primer of some sort out here Kelly Moore has nice product start with couple heavy coats of high build and than one coat of XIM than two coats of Kelly Moore Dura Poxy. Sweet. Just enough grain left to "give them character" my customers love it.


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## thepm4

In the past, I have had good success (not 100%; tried to fill grain for my own learning..along with my customer didn't care and they were receiving a soft glaze) with first primer of Stix (mini rolled...bear with me I, I know I can improve with spray techniques..and that's part of why I joined the PT and Stix sand pretty well) then 2 coats of kilz. 
I have ventured into grain fillers (Aqua Coat only) and feel it has an strong upside, but applying a finish to oak and/or other wood species hasn't come up too often in my work.


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## Holland

Since were going to re-open this thread...
Having just finished painting a number oak cabinets, I think my new method is going top be focusing on the primer step to minimize (not necessarily eliminate) the grain. The sentiment was previously stated: oak gonna be oak. 

*-x2 coats primer*- sanding between coats would be enough to minimize the grain (acting as a grain filler).

*Glad to have found a water-based primer that works for my methods: Smart Prime (aka Bullseye 123Plus). It levels out, and is also a high-build primer that sands to powder easily. It fills in the grain pretty well with little effort on my part. 

*-x2 coats topcoat. *


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Since were going to re-open this thread...
> Having just finished painting a number oak cabinets, I think my new method is going top be focusing on the primer step to minimize (not necessarily eliminate) the grain. The sentiment was previously stated: oak gonna be oak.
> 
> *-x2 coats primer*- sanding between coats would be enough to minimize the grain (acting as a grain filler).
> 
> *Glad to have found a water-based primer that works for my methods: Smart Prime (aka Bullseye 123Plus). It levels out, and is also a high-build primer that sands to powder easily. It fills in the grain pretty well with little effort on my part.
> 
> *-x2 coats topcoat. *


 For me It'a all about the backrolling. I spray and backroll 1 coat of primer, then also backroll my first topcoat of paint. Then just spray final topcoat with no backroll. Only on the fronts. The back don't get the same love as the fronts..Although, because we normally hand paint the bases, especially the Oak ones, we will double prime for coverage..


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> For me It'a all about the backrolling. I spray and backroll 1 coat of primer, then also backroll my first topcoat of paint. Then just spray final topcoat with no backroll. Only on the fronts. The back don't get the same love as the fronts..Although, because we normally hand paint the bases, especially the Oak ones, we will double prime for coverage..


What specifically are you using to backroll? 
I could understand back-rolling with BIN, because it is so thin. I wonder how much of a difference it would make when using a primer that has more build? 

I may have to do a comparison, to see if it warrants the extra effort. Either way it makes more sense than grain-filling. I will never offer that as an option. 

Previous customer did was adamant that I not obscure the grain too much, because she liked the way it looks.

How does this process differ from how you approach cabinets in other woods (eg., Pine, Maple, Birch, etc...)?


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> What specifically are you using to backroll?
> I could understand back-rolling with BIN, because it is so thin. I wonder how much of a difference it would make when using a primer that has more build?
> 
> I may have to do a comparison, to see if it warrants the extra effort. Either way it makes more sense than grain-filling. I will never offer that as an option.
> 
> Previous customer did was adamant that I not obscure the grain too much, because she liked the way it looks.
> 
> How does this process differ from how you approach cabinets in other woods (eg., Pine, Maple, Birch, etc...)?


 I use the 4" microfibre wizz rollers. I personally find on Oak, that if you don't backroll, it's difficult to drive paint into the canals with just spraying alone. I too will never offer grain filling on Oak. That's just ridiculous imo. I don't backroll on other types of wood, birch mdf etc.


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