# They Spec'd Latex for Metal Door frames



## burlyman (Aug 25, 2009)

Hey guys, with the new VOC compliance, they want me to use an acrylic latex on the gray-primed metal door frames. I've done this before and had it not adhering well at all. I was thinking about submitting a material change for an acrylic DTM, figuring it would be harder, more durable, and adhere better. I cannot afford to have my paint rubbing off with general use. 

Any Ideas?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Is it int or ext.? I believe DTM is ext only, i would just slap a primer on. The grey primer on those metel doors sucks and, I wouldnt trust it. Pluse you dont know how long those doors sat around a shop.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

i agree that the factory prime is not really any good. there is grease, dirt, and other contaminants on there. Plus, in general, the factory prime on doors and frames are mainly designed to cover and inhibit flash rust while in storage and transit until they are delivered. The factory prime often can deteriorate and cause failure, especially if not cleaned and sanded, and then primed with a product compatible with the topcoat. I think if you put a good bonding primer on them after you prep them real good, an acrylic can withstand moderate traffic.

With all this said, I would still tell the customer that wb won't hold up as good so that you are protected from possible illogical anger in the future. It depends on the kind of traffic too. I've painted many doors and frames in a factory that welds and fabricates windmill parts. No matter what I use, the doors get banged up and the paint comes off after awhile. Job security I guess....


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I have used Devflex HP from ICI on steel entry doors and frames before with nice success. It is pretty durable stuff if it is allowed to set up completely , which I believe is a 30 day full cure time. I know Sherwin and Porter both carry a product that is similar to the Devflex HP, I just dont know the names off hand.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is it int or ext.? I believe DTM is ext only, i would just slap a primer on. The grey primer on those metel doors sucks and, I wouldnt trust it. Pluse you dont know how long those doors sat around a shop.


yep that old primer on metal is a real problem. You remember seeing a certain run of Dodge Ram pickups, or Neons that have a HUGE problem with peeling paint? You will see LARGE portions of the car that the paint failed on and it is just primer. Those were due to bad primer/parts being preprimed and not properly prepped for paint. There may be other models that were effected, but those two were the big ones.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree, clean and prep the door and prime then topcoat. It always works for me without errors. My biggest complaint would be all the dang dings a door can take before you get to it.


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

*Cover your ARSE*

Hello, another idea is to do a adhesion test of the factory primer before you start. Put on a 1-1/2 piece of tape and score an X in it with a razor balde then peel tape off. This is an industry standard type test. The amount of paint that comes off is what is telling. If a little comes off it is okay a lot is an issue. Re-priming is a very good idea. My other concern would be if it is something that is to be handled ie: handrails is to back brush/roll. Adhesion of the finish paint will go way up if you touch these areas with a tool.


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## Mantis (Aug 4, 2008)

We've used waterbased epoxy on grey primed metal doors with no problems. If they refuse to allow you to oil prime, this may be an compromise alternative.


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## upnorthmn (Jun 14, 2009)

I have painted hundreds of new hollow metal frames. I have always used acrylic DTM sprayed out of the HVLP or brushed. Scuff the factory primer, give it a wipe and paint. Never had any problems with interior frames, exterior is the typical rust a few years later were it hits the ground.


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## burlyman (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks for your input guys. I have to do 2 topcoats, so if I can just scuff the existing frames, wipe and go, that'll save me a lot of time. Upnorthnm, I've only used solvent-based DTM in the past, so is there anything I should know about the Acrylic's spray/flow properties? I have 3, 3-story staircases to do, too, and was wondering if using the weenie roller would show stipple, or would self-level. With the solvent-based DTM, all I did was add more min spirits to get it to flow better and it worked like magic, but I didn't know if you've done much reduction on the Acrylic.


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## DarthPainter (Jul 26, 2009)

upnorthmn said:


> I have painted hundreds of new hollow metal frames. I have always used acrylic DTM sprayed out of the HVLP or brushed. Scuff the factory primer, give it a wipe and paint. Never had any problems with interior frames, exterior is the typical rust a few years later were it hits the ground.


This has been my experience as well. If you think about it, it's called Direct to Metal for a reason; it's supposed to be applied directly to metal. However, if you're feeling uncertain about it, use some bonding primer, and it will work wonderfully as well.

Burlyman, I wouldn't thin waterbased DTM at all; it's usually pretty watery to begin with. With a mini roller, it does usually self level, but why takes chances? Just use a 4 inch foam cover. It levels beautifully this way, damn near as nice as spraying it on.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

DarthPainter said:


> This has been my experience as well. If you think about it, it's called Direct to Metal for a reason; it's supposed to be applied directly to metal. However, if you're feeling uncertain about it, use some bonding primer, and it will work wonderfully as well.
> 
> Burlyman, I wouldn't thin waterbased DTM at all; it's usually pretty watery to begin with. With a mini roller, it does usually self level, but why takes chances? Just use a 4 inch foam cover. It levels beautifully this way, damn near as nice as spraying it on.


but since they have a factory prime on, the dtm isn't applied _directly to the metal_. Its being applied directly to the factory primer. Its a bit different', although I agree dtm is a decent product if you cant use alkyd base, epoxy might be alright but working with it would suck.


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

ModernStyle said:


> I have used Devflex HP from ICI on steel entry doors and frames before with nice success. It is pretty durable stuff if it is allowed to set up completely , which I believe is a 30 day full cure time. I know Sherwin and Porter both carry a product that is similar to the Devflex HP, I just dont know the names off hand.


We are actually using Sher-Cryl HPA on some jet bridges. The stuff is absolutely amazing. It bonds to everything extremely well (including your hands!) and seems to cure out to a pretty hard finish too. I believe it is interior or exterior...I also used the Devflex a few weeks ago on some doors at an airport and it was decent too...The acrylics they are coming out with now are amazing. I used to be one that preached oil for everything for durability, but I might be swaying now after using these products recently.:yes:


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## DarthPainter (Jul 26, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> but since they have a factory prime on, the dtm isn't applied _directly to the metal_. Its being applied directly to the factory primer. Its a bit different', although I agree dtm is a decent product if you cant use alkyd base, epoxy might be alright but working with it would suck.



True, but he could always sand or blast the factory primer off and use it as it was intended! 


Anyways, DTM will hold up just fine, even in fairly heavy traffic. It holds up a lot better than some examples of "highly durable" finishes I've seen recently: Zolatone, I'm looking at you!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

michfan said:


> We are actually using Sher-Cryl HPA on some jet bridges. The stuff is absolutely amazing. It bonds to everything extremely well (including your hands!) and seems to cure out to a pretty hard finish too. I believe it is interior or exterior...I also used the Devflex a few weeks ago on some doors at an airport and it was decent too...The acrylics they are coming out with now are amazing. I used to be one that preached oil for everything for durability, but I might be swaying now after using these products recently.:yes:


Jet bridges!? I wanna see!


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

RCP said:


> Jet bridges!? I wanna see!


I'll try to get some pics up soon. They are beasts to paint. Gotta do 'em all by hand, since we can't have any airlines getting overspray on them...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

michfan said:


> We are actually using Sher-Cryl HPA on some jet bridges. The stuff is absolutely amazing. It bonds to everything extremely well (including your hands!) and seems to cure out to a pretty hard finish too. I believe it is interior or exterior...I also used the Devflex a few weeks ago on some doors at an airport and it was decent too...The acrylics they are coming out with now are amazing. I used to be one that preached oil for everything for durability, but I might be swaying now after using these products recently.:yes:


I think Im gonna use some shercryl also for some light industrial stuff. sounds like a good coating. thanks for the headsup


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## burlyman (Aug 25, 2009)

I was at Sherwin-Williams and they have a 0 VOC Acrylic that has some amazing specs for adhesion and abrasion resistance, even better than the Acrylic DTM. I was wondering if anyone has used it. I think that and the Acrylic DTM are about the same price. 

Also, it was mentioned that the Acrylic DTM was sprayed out of an HVLP. The data sheet says it can be sprayed HVLP or airless. Any thoughts on that?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I agree, DTM is a great product. The Ben Moore Acrylic DTM is int/ext and no need to prime. DTM = Direct To Metal. Just make sure that the area is clean and grease/oil free.


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## burlyman (Aug 25, 2009)

Looks like that Sher-Cryl is almost the same as SW's Pro Industrial 0 VOC Acrylic. The Sher-Cryl weathers a little better for exterior, and the 0 VOC has a little better adhesion.


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