# Exterior SPRAY PROBLEMS



## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

I've been painting for 15 yrs. I'm 3rd generation. We were taught how to repaint aluminum siding by Alcoa Aluminum. Since the paint industry has been trying to comply with the epa with their latex paints I have had a lot of problems with repainting old aluminum. We have painted over 5,000 aluminum houses, buildings and other structures. I can not get a house to spray out uniformally. Spray lines and shadowing. I have changed tips and tip sizes. I have changed sprayers, graco and titan. I started having issues with Sherwin Williams 4 years ago and switched to Ben Moore. Within the last 2 years I am now having the same problems with BM. Last summer a BM rep finally said that I am not doing anything wrong, it's an industry wide problem, but they are not admitting to it yet for various reasons. SW said they haven't changed the paint which they obviously have been and now advirtising on their cans that their product is compliant with EPA. I spray in ideal temps and have even gone to the extreme of spraying one coat per day to ensure dry time. Looking at the structure straight on, it looks good, from an angle spray lines and shadowing is everywhere. The structure looks like I power washed it with spray lines. I know a lot of contractors in my area that are having the same issue. With textured siding there is no problem. We even went to a flat finish... Better but not eliminated! Any suggestions?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Try adding a wetting agent?


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Without seeing it,are you using an acrylic primer before the finish paint?

Maybe the pressure is too much with an airless...Have you tried using an air assisted airless with a flat tip?

Yeah a flat sheen is the way to go for sure.

Does backrolling help or hurt?

You cleaning it properly?

Have you talked to a rep about using a DTM paint?


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

I spray a lot of aluminum sided houses every year and never have the problems you described. I use PPG's Manor Hall in flat, satin, and semi ( on trim). I have also used there Sun Proof line and was impressed at how well it covered and finished. 
Are you using a cleaning agent when cleaning the building before painting. My guess on what you described would be that all the " chalking " is not being removed when you clean and is causing the uneven fiinish.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Lambrecht said:


> I spray a lot of aluminum sided houses every year and never have the problems you described. I use PPG's Manor Hall in flat, satin, and semi ( on trim). I have also used there Sun Proof line and was impressed at how well it covered and finished.
> Are you using a cleaning agent when cleaning the building before painting. My guess on what you described would be that all the " chalking " is not being removed when you clean and is causing the uneven fiinish.


He is talking about flashing and it happens a lot, drive through any new housing area and you will see it a good bit.This is why you really need to plan your attack, every house will be different and every color will be different and every sheen will be different and depending on the time of day and how much wind you have it all will make flashing happen.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Sorry if you said so but what product are you using? I have never had these issues with Mooreglo.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Could just simply be lap marks from overlapping your spray passes. Heavier build on the overlaps that are sticking out. Those marks would be hidden on siding with texture.

How to fix this I couldn't tell you. I like the air assist suggestion, sounds plausible, but I think the material is just going on too heavy. 

I would say to increase the distance between the gun and siding while you're spraying. Almost like fogging a ceiling. Just gonna have overspray like a mofo.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Floetrol helps to slow drying times and keep a wet edge. When I do that type of substrate I use .013"-.015" depending on material and surface condition. Also I found that it's best to cross hatch my spray finish. First pass horizontal second pass vertical working one long wet edge and not breaking my spray pattern. I have found I get "flash, blush, all those inconsistent sheens when I break my spray pattern! I do not try to one pass aluminum. Too risky


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

robladd said:


> Floetrol helps to slow drying times and keep a wet edge. When I do that type of substrate I use .013"-.015" depending on material and surface condition. Also I found that it's best to cross hatch my spray finish. First pass horizontal second pass vertical working one long wet edge and not breaking my spray pattern. I have found I get "flash, blush, all those inconsistent sheens when I break my spray pattern! I do not try to one pass aluminum. Too risky


 
I'm not sure I'd spray up and down on horizontal siding.I know you said cross or both ways, but spraying perpendicular to the siding seems odd ...[i'm not saying you are wrong]


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

Did an aluminum home two years ago. Still looks like day one. Sherwin super paint. Applied with 313 tip.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

If you've been painting for 15 years, and have done over 5000 houses, I would think that you'd have this worked out by now.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

The thing with siding is you have to spray with a slight angle,  be it horizontal or vertical siding. One main direction and another to fill in the blanks. That's where eye hand coordination comes into the game. When in doubt "Back Roll"! Lol


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

As stated before, I have used different tip sizes all new and have been spraying for 15 years with no problems until about 4 years ago. I normally use a .413 or a .415 and I am not spraying too close to the siding, I am not a rookie! It hasn't made a difference whether applying during ideal temps... 70 degrees with no wind. When power washing I hand scrub the siding, so there is no oxidized residue left on the siding. I also do not spray in direct sunlight! Spraying the siding too light actually has made it worse! It dries too fast and I have used extenders to lengthen the drying time with better results, but not a cure. As for a primer.... If using a 2 coat 100% acrylic paint, it is not necessary to use a primer on aluminum. I don't have an adhesion problem. I have applied a third coat with a better outcome, but not a cure. I've set my ladders up all the way across the building and don't come down from my ladders and have sprayed from one side of the building to the end, dropped my ladders and made my next pass just to avoid lapping. If anything I would expect a horizontal lapping, but that is not what I am getting. As for changing paint lines... We've used SW A-100 Satin for years until they juiced it down, then moved to Super Satin. We started using Duration with the same result and can't justify the cost while getting the same result. When switching to BM the problem was eliminated until about two years ago and now it back. The industry has changed its formulation, specifically the resins. The paint is also drying a lot faster than ever before. In cool temps, I understand getting some surfactant leaching, but this is not what I am describing. 7 different contractors all different machines and spray techniques having the same issue..... don't think it's the application!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Which end of the stir stick did you stir with?


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## Ace Painting (Jan 11, 2011)

Doesn't make sense. I don't notice any difference on any of my spray jobs. But I don't spray much any more.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

I have no doubt you know exactly what your doing. Sounds to me like a product issue. I could see if it's just your eye catching the flashes, blushes. But if it sticks out like a sore thumb maybe it's time to change coating systems


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

MCS, even though you only have two posts I can see you know some things about spraying and a guy like you I would rather have around because you are going to see things maybe some of us on here can't see, or maybe haven't experienced enough to realize can and does happen, but getting back to your question. Are you noticing this problem on all colors or just the darker ones?


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks JohnPaint... It is def more noticable with certain colors! Deep tones especially, but mid tones, not as bad. Crazy as it sounds, We have had problems matching the original color. Even had a white over white issue. When the problem originally started, it was only with the deep tones. Then it started with all the others. The white over white surprised the hell out of us! My BM rep confessed that there is a problem and even came to my jobsite and talked with the homeowner. He told the homeowner that I did go up and above a normal repaint, however that there is an industry wide problem. The homeowners asked my rep the same question I did. If you knew, why didn't you let us know that there is a problem? The response was, there isn't enough science and numbers to accurately define the problem. They weren't happy, but understood I did all I could to make the situation better. A third coat made an improvement, but it certainly is a lot of material on aluminum siding! If anyone has used AURA, it's similar to how that product picture frames on interior walls. The second issue I have is that the paint manufacturers deny a problem when introducing a new or changed product and then as time passes, they come out with a statement of how the product in question is "new and improved" in regards to the complaints I know I have made that they denied. I can remember back in the 80's and 90's, you could take a gallon of SW A-100, open the lid and throw it on the side of a building and it would paint itself... I don't have a problem with new technology, but if the application side needs to change, the industry needs to re-educate us. I appreciate all valid responses and suggestions, you guys are only helping out all of us here, however some of the other comments?? I guess you got your rediculous moment in the spotlight and it is rather embarrassing to all of us that are maintaining a level of professionalism:jester:.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MCS have you tried Aura on any of the homes? Any improvement?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I hear what you are saying. All the basics are covered, chasing the sun, lapping properly, tip size, distance. I have noticed the flashing off the tips because the paint is becoming atomized and drying quicker, not allowing for a rewetting on the subsequent pass. I have never gone to the extent of adding an extender (mainly brick homes with paint grade fascia and soffit here) but that would be my next plan of attack. 

I think the build up you are getting is simply build up from paint drying to quick and not rewetting on next pass. It makes sense you take out VOC's that allow the paint to rewett upon recontact (before they dissipate, that is) and these problems are going to be more and more prevellant.


(Maybe paint stores can sell the VOC's and we can readd them ourselves?) :jester::whistling2:


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> I hear what you are saying. All the basics are covered, chasing the sun, lapping properly, tip size, distance. I have noticed the flashing off the tips because the paint is becoming atomized and drying quicker, not allowing for a rewetting on the subsequent pass. I have never gone to the extent of adding an extender (mainly brick homes with paint grade fascia and soffit here) but that would be my next plan of attack.
> 
> I think the build up you are getting is simply build up from paint drying to quick and not rewetting on next pass. It makes sense you take out VOC's that allow the paint to rewett upon recontact (before they dissipate, that is) and these problems are going to be more and more prevellant.
> 
> ...


I actually brought the atomization from spraying up at a recent BMoore contactor expo here in the NE. If anyone has ever sprayed, knows that it's tough not to get flashing from touching up with a brush after because of how the paint atomizes. This past year I have tried everything from the Aura extender to juicing the paint with water.... better results, but still get dissapointed in the fact that I can't deliver a perfect product to my customers. Thanks for your input.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MCS PAINTING said:


> I actually brought the atomization from spraying up at a recent BMoore contactor expo here in the NE. If anyone has ever sprayed, knows that it's tough not to get flashing from touching up with a brush after because of how the paint atomizes.


Spray any touch-up paint into a separate can/bucket. Do your touch-ups with that paint. Spraying can change the color slightly.


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

A few guys have asked what product I have been using/ having issues with... Five years ago I was using Sherwin Williams Super Satin for exterior siding, both wood and aluminum. As an upgrade I would spec Duration. When we started having problems, SW denied that the paint has changed. I was also involved as the original testing contractor for woodscapes when it was first introduced, (remember when it could hold a paint stick straight up?), and it was a great product, now it's border line water. They denied changing anything with that product either, but today it is just short of water. I swithed to B Moore solid exterior stain which is still very thick. Not to get off track here, so I have moved a majority of my paint to Ben Moore with a few SW products. The last few years I have used BM Mooregard on aluminum with much better success, however the last two years have been down hill with the same issues with SW. 

I know the industry is changing the formulation across the board, but it used to be a bad paint job from a bad or inexperienced painter. Now it seems that you just can't get the paint to come out perfect. If you have noticed, all manufacturers are taking products and changing them to conform to EPA Voc laws. This is a federal law not an individual state by state law. Here in the northeast, it's illegal to buy paint in CT and bring it over the state line to MA. You have to buy the paint in the state your working in. MA was considered the leader in environmental law, (lead in petiucular), and now VOC's are the hot topic right behind the lead laws. I read a study recently on the painting industry and the VOC's emitted and as compared to big industry polluters.... there is really no comparison. I think the Gov. has their priorities a little out of whack, but that is.....I guess, "What it is!" I just want to solve this spray issue......:detective:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Your using a 413 on exterior siding?


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

We are getting to where we are setting up as many ladders as possible as to keep a wet edge all the way across the exterior. That is why I love to see windows and anything that will give you a start and stop line. Some times I will spray the top floor of a house and switch to a 8 foot extension pole to spray the bottom as to start from one lap board and hold the trigger down all the wall to the other end of the house.When I do this I will throw a 17 or 19 tip. You have to make sure you can walk along without tripping over stuff though.When I do the first floor like this it always come out great.


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> MCS have you tried Aura on any of the homes? Any improvement?


I tried it, didn't resolve the issue. As well as it was the 3rd coat with the extender added to it. It made the customer happy that I tried everything to make it right. I didn't want to do anything else at that point. A lot of paint build up! Another coat and it would have been equal to an elastimeric or rhino coating. It only happens with smooth surfaces. When there is a texture, it hides and barely can be seen. It was suggested that I move up to Mooreglo, but geeze higher gloss on siding... scared me a little given the issue and glossier finish on siding and it seems to go against normal rules of shinny finishes show more imperfections?? Might as well wear sunglasses from the glare....


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

johnpaint said:


> We are getting to where we are setting up as many ladders as possible as to keep a wet edge all the way across the exterior. That is why I love to see windows and anything that will give you a start and stop line. Some times I will spray the top floor of a house and switch to a 8 foot extension pole to spray the bottom as to start from one lap board and hold the trigger down all the wall to the other end of the house.When I do this I will throw a 17 or 19 tip. You have to make sure you can walk along without tripping over stuff though.When I do the first floor like this it always come out great.


True... still you always have to change your gun angle to get into the j-track at intersections for windows, doors and corners. I can understand "Shadowing" from a burst of wind or overspray when you get a rough spot, but it's def a sheen diference. It's def not light refraction!


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

robladd said:


> I have no doubt you know exactly what your doing. Sounds to me like a product issue. I could see if it's just your eye catching the flashes, blushes. But if it sticks out like a sore thumb maybe it's time to change coating systems


Agree with you here, but after 30 years of a proven coating system, it's thrown me for a loop! The paint manufacturers are still insisting that the system is the ideal way to go. I hate to test products on customers houses and cross my fingers that it may or may not work. I know that now, it's not working.


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

Bender said:


> Your using a 413 on exterior siding?


For aluminum siding. Depending on weather conditions, between a 413 and a 415.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Have you tried any of PPG's exterior products?


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

At any rate on difficult walls I will set up two guns one with a very long poll and the other with shorter one.The long poll always get a big tip. This way all I have to do is switch one with the other in a heart beat. On the end caps you want to lightly mist them, and then come back over without triggering when you do the field.I have also found that wind is worse than sun as for a drying paint. If you do have to trigger your gun you want to have an angle as your spraying sideways when you release the trigger.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

The best paint I have used when it comes to these issues is SW super Paint, but above all you need a plan on how to spray the house with a min amount of triggering.


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## MCS PAINTING (Feb 10, 2011)

Lambrecht said:


> Have you tried any of PPG's exterior products?


 
The closest store closed down season before last. Right about the time I switched from Sherwin to BMoore. They had better pricing and were pushing a new up end line. Then they closed and now they are like 4 towns over.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

MCS PAINTING said:


> The closest store closed down season before last. Right about the time I switched from Sherwin to BMoore. They had better pricing and were pushing a new up end line. Then they closed and now they are like 4 towns over.


That sucks. Their Timeless line works great on aluminum. Never had an issue with flashing or lap marks. If you have a chance I would highly recommend trying it.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MCS PAINTING said:


> The closest store closed down season before last. Right about the time I switched from Sherwin to BMoore. They had better pricing and were pushing a new up end line. Then they closed and now they are like 4 towns over.


Throwing this out there...Sikkens RSF maybe? Hybrid technology, longer dry time...decent sheen but not too shiny.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Throwing this out there...Sikkens RSF maybe? Hybrid technology, longer dry time...decent sheen but not too shiny.


Sikkens RSF is a wood product?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

I have has good results with KM 1245 acri-shield. It's a low glo


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

With all this extra effort (labor) in ladder set ups etc.... I would suggest:spray,then use a mini roller or back brush it.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

robladd said:


> Sikkens RSF is a wood product?


:yes: Yes sir it is. Just thinking outside the box. It does work on cement board, and I did put it on my fiberglass garage doors...no problems whatsoever. :thumbsup: Might be worth a call to your Sikkens rep, or Sikkens Tech Services. Tell them the problems you are having with other products, and see if this would work better or has been tested. If it hasnt been tested, it may be something that they would be interested in....might even get some material and/or labor to do a test home. Who knows? :thumbsup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

johnpaint said:


> We are getting to where we are setting up as many ladders as possible as to keep a wet edge all the way across the exterior. That is why I love to see windows and anything that will give you a start and stop line. Some times I will spray the top floor of a house and switch to a 8 foot extension pole to spray the bottom as to start from one lap board and hold the trigger down all the wall to the other end of the house.When I do this I will throw a 17 or 19 tip. You have to make sure you can walk along without tripping over stuff though.When I do the first floor like this it always come out great.


To avoid this problem, we started having to do more and more elaborate scaffolding set ups: sectional scaffolding with continuous decks on side brackets. That gave us the ability to shoot whole walls while walking from one end to the other. It looked great, but there were two problems: one was the technical issue of managing an airless hose for the long, fast walk down the planks (and not walking into thin air at the end); the other was that the time saved by spraying was more than lost in setting up all of that scaffold.

On second thought, we couldn't have walked off of the ends. The OSHA-mandated guardrails and toe-boards would have kept us from doing so:whistling2:


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## Dbo (Nov 29, 2009)

I would brush and roll it and see what happens.


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## SuperiorPainter (Feb 12, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> I would say to increase the distance between the gun and siding while you're spraying. Almost like fogging a ceiling. Just gonna have overspray like a mofo.


I was going to say the same thing.


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