# Zero/Low VOC wood conditioner



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

In the past I have used Daly's water based benite as a 'greener' option as a wood conditioner. Is there any other options out there that work somewhat universally with various products?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Assuming you were referring to a pre-stain conditioner, what about glue size?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> Assuming you were referring to a pre-stain conditioner, what about glue size?


I thought about glue size but I really wanted to avoid DIY solutions on a 100M+ ranch. The daly's has worked well in the past but I have been informed the german resin manufacturer is no longer making that particular resin for them.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

What are you staining with and what species of wood. Alot of the waterbased stains claim a conditioner is not necessary.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

alder, using sansin stains that they already bought apparently and its turning out super blotchy so my guy has to go fix it. normally i would use benite as its very predictable but not available on this job due to VOC. Everything is already installed probably need 20 gallons worth on conditioner and I don't think that quantiity of shellac is gonna fly with the builder either.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> alder, using sansin stains that they already bought apparently and its turning out super blotchy so my guy has to go fix it. normally i would use benite as its very predictable but not available on this job due to VOC. Everything is already installed probably need 20 gallons worth on conditioner and I don't think that quantiity of shellac is gonna fly with the builder either.


 That sux. I guess it depends how particular people are. Personally, I've never used a wood conditioner ever. Although I don't do a ton of staining. All the same, a quick google search had a bunch of waterborne conditioners. Not sure of the quality or voc level. You would think Sansin would have one?!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I thought about glue size but I really wanted to avoid DIY solutions on a 100M+ ranch. The daly's has worked well in the past but I have been informed the german resin manufacturer is no longer making that particular resin for them.


I suspect that some of the water based conditioners are essentially Poly Vinyl Acetate glue size. Glue size is still used by many pro wood finishers. One product which comes to mind which is touted by many pros, is Charles Neil’s Pre-Color Conditioner, especially for use on cherry. I suspect it’s PVA white glue based on the SDS which states it has a mild acetic aroma.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> I suspect that some of the water based conditioners are essentially Poly Vinyl Acetate glue size. Glue size is still used by many pro wood finishers. One product which comes to mind which is touted by many pros, is Charles Neil’s Pre-Color Conditioner, especially for use on cherry. I suspect it’s PVA white glue based on the SDS which states it has a mild acetic aroma.


Most of the ready made water based conditioners have a windows of 30m-1hour where you have to apply stain over them, doesn't work if you completely let the conditioner dry first, making it useless for large applications IMO. Benite is like magic for this and its very predictable, I believe its mainly PTO and maybe some other resins. You apply it, let it dry completely, then stain over it anytime in the next 12hours - 6+ months. Water based Benite works similar with a different resin package.
I have had luck using GF RTM clear as a conditioner before but it doesn't meet the stringent VOC requirements and their regular water based stain seems to reactivate somewhat when used like that.

I see some talk on various wood forums of people making glue size themselves ratios of 4-8:1 depending on the glue used and wood porosity but I'm worried a water based stain will reactivate the PVA.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Most of the ready made water based conditioners have a windows of 30m-1hour where you have to apply stain over them, doesn't work if you completely let the conditioner dry first, making it useless for large applications IMO. Benite is like magic for this and its very predictable, I believe its mainly PTO and maybe some other resins. You apply it, let it dry completely, then stain over it anytime in the next 12hours - 6+ months. Water based Benite works similar with a different resin package.
> I have had luck using GF RTM clear as a conditioner before but it doesn't meet the stringent VOC requirements and their regular water based stain seems to reactivate somewhat when used like that.
> 
> I see some talk on various wood forums of people making glue size themselves ratios of 4-8:1 depending on the glue used and wood porosity but I'm worried a water based stain will reactivate the PVA.


A very reputable New England hardwood flooring & millwork vendor I know of, has used the Charles Neil product for years under a number of different water based spray stains on their pre-finished cherry, w/out issues. I personally haven’t used glue size in decades, so I don’t know how it behaves with the newer water based pigmented stains, which I’ve never used..nothing else comes to mind in the low to no VOC range.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> A very reputable New England hardwood flooring & millwork vendor I know of, has used the Charles Neil product for years under a number of different water based spray stains on their pre-finished cherry, w/out issues. I personally haven’t used glue size in decades, so I don’t know how it behaves with the newer water based pigmented stains, which I’ve never used..nothing else comes to mind in the low to no VOC range.


Well I guess I'll give that a whirl this weekend. Here is some GF hickory over RTM clear used as a conditioner on alder I did about 2 years ago. Worked a little too well actually, sort of unnaturally even


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> A very reputable New England hardwood flooring & millwork vendor I know of, has used the Charles Neil product for years under a number of different water based spray stains on their pre-finished cherry, w/out issues. I personally haven’t used glue size in decades, so I don’t know how it behaves with the newer water based pigmented stains, which I’ve never used..nothing else comes to mind in the low to no VOC range.


Just an update turns out the stain is rubio monocoat. I tried both glue size and RTM clear. Both worked great as a conditioner on knotty alder.

I tried and worked well both at 150 and 220. used titebond original diluted 1:4 with warm water, let dry completely then buffed with 220 to knock down the raised grain.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Just an update turns out the stain is rubio monocoat. I tried both glue size and RTM clear. Both worked great as a conditioner on knotty alder.
> 
> I tried and worked well both at 150 and 220. used titebond original diluted 1:4 with warm water then buffed with 220.


Isn't that Rubio Monocoat more of a 2 in 1 product? AKA has a finish built into it?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Isn't that Rubio Monocoat more of a 2 in 1 product? AKA has a finish built into it?


rubio monocoat is a PLO hardwax. So yeah you can consider it a finish, though its really not as durable as say a polyurethane there isn't much of a surface film that develops and it doesn't absorb very far into the wood so its easy to sand off.

These products are best applied when heated or using a buffer pad. Applying them like a regular wiping varnish/stain uses WAY more product and not very friendly to brush it feels very tacky and sticky. using a buffer you use vastly less material as well.

interestingly rubio uses a isocyanate catalyst that is labelled zero voc so its technically within the specs for this job. HO's don't care about toxicity just VOC's LOL.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

I am now a believer in glue size, works as good if not better than any commercial wood conditioner i've used to reduce blotching and its nearly as fast as shellac and powders up easy with 220. 1 coat really evens out a stain, and 2 coats seems to completely eliminate any blotching at all.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I am now a believer in glue size, works as good if not better than any commercial wood conditioner i've used to reduce blotching and its nearly as fast as shellac and powders up easy with 220. 1 coat really evens out a stain, and 2 coats seems to completely eliminate any blotching at all.


I was pretty certain it would work great. I’ve only used PVA white glue and not aliphatic yellow glue such as Titebond. I’m wondering if there’s a reason why white PVA glue is preferred over yellow glue, and does yellow glue darken with age & exposure?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Interesting, I Would have never considered a glue. What you learn on here. I was gonna suggest a homemade wash, like maybe a thinned down linseed oil or shellac, But I guess that wouldn't really be low VOC. Nevermind. This whole staining thing is a different world. Especially with all the newer technology and low VOC stuff..


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## thepm4 (May 18, 2020)

For me, I would classify this thread/discussion as priceless...such great info...something I will definitely incorporate


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> I was pretty certain it would work great. I’ve only used PVA white glue and not aliphatic yellow glue such as Titebond. I’m wondering if there’s a reason why white PVA glue is preferred over yellow glue, and does yellow glue darken with age & exposure?


Is it preferred? All the research I did saw people using yellow glue such as titebond or gorilla. Maybe a few people using white pva


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

could somebody clue me in please...
What exactly is "glue sizing" and how to use it before staining? 

Thank you.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> could somebody clue me in please...
> What exactly is "glue sizing" and how to use it before staining?
> 
> Thank you.


"Glue Size" as it is commonly referred is thinned PVA (elmers), hide, or just regular wood glue.
I first read about glue sizing as a way to stiffen soft wood fibers when making cuts and to stiffen end grain joints. Jeff Jewitt had a blurb talking about it in the 'complete illustrated guide' where he suggests a ratio of 10:1 as a pre-sealer on blotch prone woods. He says it can also be used on MDF but i'm not sure how well that would work without swelling up the fibers.

On this knotty alder I am using diluted titebond with water 4:1 and it appears with a thin second coat this really evens out the porosity of the wood. Applied a thin flowing coat with a brush and let dry for an hour then knock down the raised wood fibers with 220. There doesn't appear to be any window where it won't take stain, I've used oil stain (rubio) after an hour and after 24 hours with seemingly identical results.

It doesn't pop the grain and doesn't have the sealing capabilities that Benite has but it seems to work really well and its very economical.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> "Glue Size" as it is commonly referred is thinned PVA (elmers), hide, or just regular wood glue.
> I first read about glue sizing as a way to stiffen soft wood fibers when making cuts and to stiffen end grain joints. Jeff Jewitt had a blurb talking about it in the 'complete illustrated guide' where he suggests a ratio of 10:1 as a pre-sealer on blotch prone woods. He says it can also be used on MDF but i'm not sure how well that would work without swelling up the fibers.
> 
> On this knotty alder I am using diluted titebond with water 4:1 and it appears with a thin second coat this really evens out the porosity of the wood. Applied a thin flowing coat with a brush and let dry for an hour then knock down the raised wood fibers with 220. There doesn't appear to be any window where it won't take stain, I've used oil stain (rubio) after an hour and after 24 hours with seemingly identical results.
> ...


Thanks.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Is it preferred? All the research I did saw people using yellow glue such as titebond or gorilla. Maybe a few people using white pva


White PVA is preferred over yellow due to aliphatic amines in yellow glue reacting with tannins, sometimes turning the glue & wood black, especially if there’s sawdust in the pores.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Wouldn’t PVA (or any glue sizing) completely seal the wood, making it not absorb stain? So in other words, you’d just be putting a thin layer of stain on the surface, not soaking it into the grain? Is that the objective?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Wouldn’t PVA (or any glue sizing) completely seal the wood, making it not absorb stain? So in other words, you’d just be putting a thin layer of stain on the surface, not soaking it into the grain? Is that the objective?











73 – Coloring Blotchy Woods


The topic was staining blotchy woods. After the demo, I've included a portion of the Q&A from the chat room.




thewoodwhisperer.com




Glue size: Blotch Control to Rule Them All


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 73 – Coloring Blotchy Woods
> 
> 
> The topic was staining blotchy woods. After the demo, I've included a portion of the Q&A from the chat room.
> ...


Makes sense now why you have recommended Gelstains in the past.
He nailed that demo. Addressed the several issues I've been running into when using Sealcoat and stain. Interesting that he didn't lightly sand the sealcoat before staining. Is that typical?

#fightingbitchiness

Just saw the follow-up article. Reading now. Thanks for all the great info.

The Charles Neil Glue Wood size looks interesting. Do you happen to know if it is universally compatible with all stains, (oil and water)?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Makes sense now why you recommend Gelstains.
> He nailed that demo! Addressed the problems I've been running into when using Sealcoat and stain. Interesting that he didn't lightly sand the sealcoat before staining. Is that typical?
> 
> #fightingbitchiness
> ...


Generally I would follow up with a light buffing, personally I've never had good luck using shellac and would avoid it. Glue size definitely needs sanding as it raises the wood grain, it powders easily though.
I hardly ever recommend gel stains for most wood finishing, but when you need them nothing else would have worked as they have unique properties. As a finisher you need to have a large array of tools and knowledge to achieve professional results.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Seems like he primarily recommends dyes with his products. How do other products work with it. 
Wish I had this info last year. 

At 19:00 he demos application.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> ...
> 
> Seems like he primarily recommends dyes with his products. How do other products work with it.
> Wish I had this info last year.
> ...


I would say in general you can use any oil or water based stain over glue size or daly's benite (always test for adhesion). The glue size I made using titebond I was recoating within an hour with rubio monocoat, as he says I applied a full wet coat. 1 coat reduced like 90% of the blotching and a 2nd coat maybe 95+%.

I didn't want to use the charlie neil stuff because:
1) expensive, though customer wouldn't care
2) probably contains glycol, can't use on this job as VOC: 63g/L
3) shipping takes too long
4) only available in quarts and we need roughly* 20-30 gallons!*

Mixing 1 gallon titebond into a bucket with 4gallon water definitely the way to go on this one.

I will also say the general finishes RTM clear stain worked great as a conditioner too

Now you know why I shake my head when I see a professional reach for a can of minwax not knowing any better


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Mixing 1 gallon titebond into a bucket with 4gallon water definitely the way to go on this one.

I will also say the general finishes RTM clear stain worked great as a conditioner too

Now you know why I shake my head when I see a professional reach for a can of minwax not knowing any better 
[/QUOTE]
I do a lot of Knotty Alder trim packs and I have always used Verithane of Minwax conditioners and it sucks to spray, I wonder of the glue size could by applied with an airless and not give problems hitting knock down texture.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Interesting thread. 

What about warranty? If there's an issue, you're screwed because you used a homebrew.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> What about warranty? If there's an issue, you're screwed because you used a homebrew.


There is no warranty on this stuff, HO's know what they're getting with the zero VOC products and they're ok with potentially having to redo things long term. In fact I already have to go back to another job that another outfit screwed up with the stain and left way too much on or something, thus why were using the sealer on this one. Were talking about thousands of square feet that are probably going to be sanded off ceilings and walls then restained as I can't imagine any other way to fix it.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Krittterkare said:


> I do a lot of Knotty Alder trim packs and I have always used Verithane of Minwax conditioners and it sucks to spray, I wonder of the glue size could by applied with an airless and not give problems hitting knock down texture.


It sprays like water and is absorbed pretty readily by the wood then you come knock down the grain with a light buffing. They're doing a test run today and another 20-30 gallons this weekend so I'll let you know how it goes.

It does seem to settle out of solution somewhat quickly over the course of an hour and needs to be stirred. Maybe PVA glue would stay in solution longer


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Krittterkare said:


> I do a lot of Knotty Alder trim packs and I have always used Verithane of Minwax conditioners and it sucks to spray, I wonder of the glue size could by applied with an airless and not give problems hitting knock down texture.


An update:
We had 4 guys out there this weekend. After 10 hours I'm completely smoked.
A couple of observations from this job:
1) Because the wood was sanded to 150 and the glue size was applied via airless and not back brushed it did not completely remove the blotching as in my sample however it was very effective as a sealer and meets the VOC requirements for this job.
2) I love the look of glue size on alder on its own, almost a bleached look. Wish the HO's had seen this they might have just left it on its own.
3) I was told by the GC his guys had sanded the preinstalled package to 220 so that's what I had done with my submitted samples. Turns out they used 150 and didn't do a very good job sanding especially in the corners where they went across the grain. Would have been better if the painters had sanded, and ideally prefinished.
4) Glue sized sprayed great, we used a 308 tritech tip and two light coats. Sealer was given 48 hours before staining, much easier to use than minwax conditioner as there is no window to apply stain.
5) Had a couple runs in the glue size that needed to be sanded out; it sands very easy though you need to look for them before staining. I found just wet sanding the stain into the run worked well enough too.
6) The boards shrunk a lot so the GC some some fillter betweet the cracks
6) rubio monocoat is *very *thick and sticky. I suspect if we had sanded to 220 or perhaps even finer it would have been much easier to buff the finish but at 150 it was very difficult and we went through several 8lbs boxes of rags with excess stain needing to be buffed with completely dry rags. In total we used approximately 3 gallons monocoat. 8 parts castle brown : 1 part smoke. The stain color came out darker than my sample. If using this product by hand its very labor intensive to fully remove excess stain and I suspect sanding to finer grits would help with that.

Overall I'm happy with how it came out given the time restraints and existing restrictions. I only wish the contractor would consult me BEFORE everything is spec'd and installed and not wait until after to fix it:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> An update:
> We had 4 guys out there this weekend. After 10 hours I'm completely smoked.
> A couple of observations from this job:
> 1) Because the wood was sanded to 150 and the glue size was applied via airless and not back brushed it did not completely remove the blotching as in my sample however it was very effective as a sealer and meets the VOC requirements for this job.
> ...


Rather than messing w/pigmented oils and sizing, I wonder how bleaching followed by a diluted wash done w/something like Woca’a Grey Wood Lye would look on alder/w a clear hardwax oil...there are also a number of low to no VOC hardwax oils which are much user friendly than RMC...

Below is an example of the above mentioned done on white oak which is similar in tone to the finished alder...don’t know how it would work w/alder


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> Rather than messing w/pigmented oils and sizing, I wonder how bleaching followed by a diluted wash done w/something like Woca’a Grey Wood Lye would look on alder/w a clear hardwax oil...there are also a number of low to no VOC hardwax oils which are much user friendly than RMC...
> 
> Below is an example of the above mentioned done on white oak which is similar in tone to the finished alder...don’t know how it would work w/alder


Unfortunately we didn't get to pick the stain and finish on this job, it was already spec'd I just had to find a way to make it work.

I think bleaching would only fly if we could prefinish the boards down, woca wood lye + pure tung oil would be an option. I can't imagine trying to bleach all of that in place


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