# Brush strokes



## greensboro84 (Feb 15, 2008)

Why is it that when cutting in, sometimes I can see where I lifted the brush from the paint. Is this from thick paint, stiff brush, or color on wall being a different tint or color. Sometimes it seems like more than one. Maybe it's just my technique? This happened the other day with the lowes wooster brush, but I've seen it when applying duron weathershield outdoors too. Sometimes the strokes dry in and you cant see it, sometimes it needs another coat and I can still pick out where the brush was lifted from the wall. Whats up with this?


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

It's probably your technique since your new. It takes a bit to get past the learning curve while cutting in. It took me a good couple years to get 'good' at cutting and about another couple to get 'great'. 

...could also be a paint or substrate issue too...here's some info that may help you-keep in mind it may be a little DIY focused http://home.howstuffworks.com/paint-troubleshooting.htm

brush choice is a factor as well..._most_ brushes over $15 at _most_ paint stores will yield professional results, assuming your technique is good (keep in mind, us pro's will swear that we can make any brush work...)


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

Brush choice makes a big difference for me. I get the stiffest brush that I can (wooster extra firm) and it has made an incredible difference for me as far as accuracy and smooth finish.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

You may want to add some flotrol to your paint. This will help with what you are dealing with.


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## greensboro84 (Feb 15, 2008)

thanks for the replies. i think im going to try the flotrol. it seems to be more of a paint issue, paint being thick from being left in their van or house overnight, being really cold outside. will water have the same thinning affect as flotrol?


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

:no:NO NO NO!!!! Water will lower the quality of the paint. Flotrol will maintain the quality of the paint.


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

there is absolutely NO reason to add anything to paint to make it work...it's unnecessary


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## greensboro84 (Feb 15, 2008)

Well, the thing is, we do mostly repaints of rental units. Apts. condos, duples, so we take all of our equipment home even if we are coming back the next morning so it doesn't get stolen(and we've walked into a few jobs the next day to find appliances missing like stoves, fridge, washer'dryers,etc...) So the paint ends up in the cold van all night and it's super thick the next day, especially the exterior paint we use(durons weathershield, which is almost as bad as their signature series we use for painting over oil trim, which is like painting with water, a whole other story). Anyway, I was using a wooster ultrapro med-firm, but since I'm still trying to find my fav, i just bought a purdy xl glide 3in angled brush, but I havent got to use it yet. It's softer than the wooster and it seems like a firmer bristle would leave more strokes like I'm talking seeing. I figured out some of the marks are from not cutting in right, like if theres no crown and Im cutting in a ceiling and wall at the same time and the brush hits where I painted before, the marks show up, I can just pull those out though and learn a lil more brush control, but I can still see marks from where I lift the brush from the wall. Happens outdoors to with duron weathershield alot, but this dries up better and is barely noticeable with two coats, my customer rarely cares about durability or coverage as long as it looks better(cheap ass property managers) and will rent. But I want my own work to look good regardless, esp if its my own sidework.


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

I agree w/ Rich. As a rep for Kelly-Moore, we manufacture most paints to be used "as is". The chemists certainly say that. However, like you all have mentioned, storage is a big issue. IF I were to recommend an additive, I'd use "Latex Xtender" from XIM. 

I love MN, and I was born in Alexandria. However, Eric I am not sure that thinning w/ water will "lower the quality" of the paint. I'd suggest that %'s are key w/ thinning w/ any additive.

Quality of materials will make the biggest difference. If there is one thing I hate seeing in our stores, is a DIYer leaving w/ a $40/gln of premium paint and a chip brush to put it on with. Use premium tools. Like a Purdy or even Arrowworthy is making a very good brush these days.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Yuba

Most paints are manufactured to be used as is. The chemists dont paint much. The realities that guys in the field are faced with include: direct sun, humidity, temperature, air movement, colors, number of coats - none of which can be properly replicated in the lab and all of which affect brushability of the product. 

Different painters have different opinions on the additive topic. Personally, I have yet to find a trim paint, oil or latex, whose working characteristics were not enhanced through conditioning.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*Was paint frozen?!*

Freezing...even light freezing, is the death-knell of most modern latexes. It irreversibly changes the structure of the binder.

In late January, I had SIX HUNDRED GALLONS of Ralph-Lauren paint arrive frozen solid   .
Had to refuse the load. Was supposed to have been on an insulated trailer!!
I'll bet the carriers' insurance Co. loved THAT claim...nearly $20,000 ...at retail:blink: !!!

Floetrol is a big help with some paints/environments for trim use. Gives a paints' binder-resin more open time before it starts to set.

Faron


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

vermont,
your website is very nice, and easy to use. Nice article on Aura. Great links. As a rep, I realize the "rubber has to hit the road", and the lab doesn't always get that. No lab coat can match field experience for sure. Enjoy your week.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Yuba

Thanks for the feedback. As I said, just my opinion on additives. The lab guys cant paint and I cant make paint, so we do need each other in the chain.


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## DEELOBRIZZOWN (Mar 21, 2008)

so how do you fix this problem? Roll or brush over it?


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## Zip (Apr 18, 2007)

The problem can be partially advoided by reshaking or stirring until the material has a smoother flow. I prefer to use materials straight out of the can although many labels state that you can thin it 10-15%.

So big dogs........what about the extensive thinning that is done for many HVLP applications that I've read about in past posts?


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yuba
> 
> Most paints are manufactured to be used as is. The chemists dont paint much. The realities that guys in the field are faced with include: direct sun, humidity, temperature, air movement, colors, number of coats - none of which can be properly replicated in the lab and all of which affect brushability of the product.
> 
> Different painters have different opinions on the additive topic. Personally, I have yet to find a trim paint, oil or latex, whose working characteristics were not enhanced through conditioning.


 
One thing that I've been doing is brushing out my paints on a panel after every batch. There are things that you see when you brush them out that really you can't get if you are just evaluating the film by drawing it down. (Most chemists will just take a little puddle of paint and use a bar to give a consistent film thickness across a card.) For instance, I had one paint that I can make and it looks great on a draw down, but when I brush it out, it gives me craters. You would never know that otherwise. 

The other reason for brushing out every time is that you need to be aware of your flow and levelling. I really spent about 60 days work time developing the flow and levelling package for that paint. The goal is to make it brush out like an oil based paint (yeah, my boss wanted me to turn water into oil!). I think I've come as close as any paint that I've seen.

As for painting things out in varying conditions, we DO test for that and go to extremes. My boss has some crazy stories about the conditions he's tried his paints out in. So we ARE aware, but it's very difficult to formulate something that will work anywhere from ideal to the most extreme conditions.

As for an additive you can probably use in paints to enhance flow and levelling if you are having problems, the easiest would probably be Propylene Glycol. It WILL hurt your early water resistance. As Rich said, though, you shouldn't HAVE to add anything.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yuba
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. As I said, just my opinion on additives. The lab guys cant paint and I cant make paint, so we do need each other in the chain.


 
Haha. I can paint pretty well! It's those marketing folks that are terrible! They come over and make even the best paint look awful!


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

Faron79 said:


> Freezing...even light freezing, is the death-knell of most modern latexes. It irreversibly changes the structure of the binder.
> 
> In late January, I had SIX HUNDRED GALLONS of Ralph-Lauren paint arrive frozen solid   .
> Had to refuse the load. Was supposed to have been on an insulated trailer!!
> ...


 
Frozen paints are a huge problem. That is a problem with the company and formulator. Rust-Oleum has very strict requirements concerning freeze-thaw stability. I believe all except for one line are freeze-thaw stable. I could be wrong so don't quote me on that.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Formulator said:


> Haha. I can paint pretty well! It's those marketing folks that are terrible! They come over and make even the best paint look awful!


 
I'm sure you can paint pretty well by a standard other than most true pros would rank themselves on. But still, I am glad you are interested in how these things work.

Also, it is one thing to brush out a panel in the lab at the end of a batch, but quite another for those of us who count on them to work in whatever situation we walk into for air quality and drying characteristics on any given day. Just lately, what a difference between painting in dry homes in the winter, vs high moisture spring air with windows open. I wish we could count on the product to work properly regardless of the conditions, but that doesnt seem realistic.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm sure you can paint pretty well by a standard other than most true pros would rank themselves on. But still, I am glad you are interested in how these things work.
> 
> Also, it is one thing to brush out a panel in the lab at the end of a batch, but quite another for those of us who count on them to work in whatever situation we walk into for air quality and drying characteristics on any given day. Just lately, what a difference between painting in dry homes in the winter, vs high moisture spring air with windows open. I wish we could count on the product to work properly regardless of the conditions, but that doesnt seem realistic.


 
Well, I think we will probably be moving towards that in the future. You obviously understand how humidity etc. affects paint dry times and viscosity. There ARE ways of maintaining the viscosity of the paint across a wide temperature range. I think we'll see the industry moving towards that technology in the future. 

As for drying, many paints dry differently. Some rely totally on the liquids volatilizing into the air. Others will crosslink and start to harden up and dry out based on those reactions occurring. I'm not a wall-paint expert, but as far as I know they generally rely on the evaporation of the solvents. I think part of the problem is that the amount of wall paint produced is so high that using other technologies is too cost prohibitive at this point.

edit: And yes, I know I'm not a great painter. I was just pointing out that some of us DO brush our paints out and not just draw them down. You would probably be impressed with the amount of painting that I've done just in developing the flow and levelling package.

Carter


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## winecountrypainter (Jun 3, 2008)

it depends on what surface you are applying to be able to determine the problem


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## curiouspainter (Jun 19, 2019)

Rich said:


> there is absolutely NO reason to add anything to paint to make it work...it's unnecessary


Only reason I've ever encountered to do so would be if painting on exteriors in hot conditions when paint dries extremely fast. And even that can be remedied by things such as 1. keeping your brush clean/change as needed throughout day 2. strictly maintain that wet edge 3. Work quickly/don't brush back over what you've laid out any more than necessary and 4. Paint in the shade whenever possible. If you plan it out, you can usually paint in the shade throughout the day.


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## curiouspainter (Jun 19, 2019)

curiouspainter said:


> Only reason I've ever encountered to do so would be if painting on exteriors in hot conditions when paint dries extremely fast. And even that can be remedied by things such as 1. keeping your brush clean/change as needed throughout day 2. strictly maintain that wet edge 3. Work quickly/don't brush back over what you've laid out any more than necessary and 4. Paint in the shade whenever possible. If you plan it out, you can usually paint in the shade throughout the day.


And to be clear, I'm referring to adding Flotrol (water based extender) or Penetrol (oil based extender)


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## vikramsaith (Jun 21, 2021)

Rich said:


> there is absolutely NO reason to add anything to paint to make it work...it's unnecessary


Ahaan........


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)




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