# Is anyone clear-coating painted cabinets?



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I paint cabinets using Advance (Benjamin-Moore). White and light tints dry hard, but the dark colors (recently emerald green) take a long time to cure and never seem quite hard enough. 

It lays down nicely and looks very good, but does not seem hard enough to withstand steady use.

I tested clear coating black cabinets a while back and the satin clear made the black look more gray than black. I ended up using a glossy clear. 

Questions:

1. How long do I have to wait before clear coating? I am worried that the clear will retard further curing of the Advance.
2. What clear would you recommend (waterborne only).
3. Is a satin possible without graying down the color?
4. I shoot HVLP (4-Stage). What tip do I use? Do I shoot straight from the can?

So far, no customer complaints, but still it has me concerned.

Thanks for the assistance.

Packard


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I agree with you on the dark colors. Advance does make a Stock Black that should be better than a tinted 4x. That being said, I have been clearing darker colours with Saman Waterborne Poly. Generally 24hrs is a safe bet. I give a light sand with 400 grit prior to clear. I shoot it straight from the can in a gravity fed conventional hvlp 1.4 tip. i think General Finishes has a good black that may be a little tougher. I can't get any of the good stuff up my way. This one I did last year with Advance and Saman Clear.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

The cabinets and doors look excellent in your images. A few questions.

1. This product is available from Amazon.com. Is it the same as you are referencing? It is available in gloss, semi-gloss and flat. 








SamaN Interior Water Based Satin Varnish with Aluminum Oxide – Crystal Clear Wood Finish (Satin Finish) - Household Varnishes - Amazon.com


SamaN Interior Water Based Satin Varnish with Aluminum Oxide – Crystal Clear Wood Finish (Satin Finish) - Household Varnishes - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com





2. It is available in gloss, semi-gloss and flat. It sells for $28.00 per gallon. Is that a fair price for this?

3. When I tried using a satin finish over black, it looked distinctly gray. Is there any way around that issue?

4. I have a 1.3 and a 1.5 tip for my 4-stage HVLP sprayer. Which would you suggest I try first?

I appreciate your help.

Regards,

Packard


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Waterbornes are gonna look a little foggy on black. I dont think theres a way around it.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

The glossy version looked OK, but the satin looked dreadful.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Packard said:


> The glossy version looked OK, but the satin looked dreadful.


What clear did you use? Wow. $28/ Gal? That's a good deal for Saman.. I'm sure you could different clears available in your area, but my local BM supplies this and I know it's compatible. Also a very true clear. My setup is conventional, so it pushes a 1.4 no problem. Depends on your setup I would imagine.🤷‍♂️
You may try getting your hands on some GF, CIC or Envirolak. I imagine their black would be a lot tougher..but have not used them yet..


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

My error. That is for 32 ounces-- quart. I probably used Polycrylic, though I have some General Finishes clear in stock. I went over GF's milk paint. Adhesion was good and the color was too (but very glossy).


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Aside from having an amber tone which might add value over a dark color, I wonder how a hybrid emulsion such as Target Coatings EMTECH EM8000CV WB Conversion Varnish would work? Their flat is more like a low luster satin and is a pretty durable finish. It should spray just fine right out of the can with a 4 stage HVLP & 1.3mm–1.5mm needle set/corresponding air cap.

Edit:
It’s been my observation over the years that some waterborne urethanes and poly-acrylics develop a milky haze in the longer term. Unless the clear was specifically engineered to be applied over an opaque painted surface, I’d tend to steer clear of using them over dark colors.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I know that the oil modified stuff will age and add some amber to the color, so I am going to steer clear of the oil modified poly. I will do some Internet research and then test.


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## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

Ive clear coated black entry doors with Sher-Clear and never had any clarity problems, satin and SG.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. I will make some tests to check appearance and then go forward.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

A painter acquaintance of mine used a waterborne clear by Old Masters over black Advance but it turned cloudy above range, coffee maker, and around dishwasher every time the appliances were used, but the film recovered when moisture evaporated. Don’t know what eventually became of that..


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Well that is something to think about. I will make a test piece and tape it to the front of my dishwasher which exhausts the wet, hot air from vents in the front. It is enough that I had to replace the Formica counter because the particle board was turning to dust, so I think that would be a reasonable test.

I'm glad you brought that up. I would never have thought to test for humidity.

I wonder how Sealcoat (water-clear shellac, 1 pound cut) would fare as a topcoat. It dries fast and no alcohol or water will sit on it. It is not particularly shiny unless it is polished. And it dries and cures fast. I may test that also.

I found this evaluation of clear finishes at a shuffleboard blog (of all places!). They compare shellac, lacquer, poly, and epoxy finishes for shuffleboard applications which is basically all abrasion from the sliding pucks, and in bars, so alcohol and hot drinks. Interesting and diverting.



https://www.shuffleboard.net/blog/table-shuffleboard-finish-comparison/


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Packard said:


> Well that is something to think about. I will make a test piece and tape it to the front of my dishwasher which exhausts the wet, hot air from vents in the front. It is enough that I had to replace the Formica counter because the particle board was turning to dust, so I think that would be a reasonable test.
> 
> I'm glad you brought that up. I would never have thought to test for humidity.
> 
> ...


Shellac will turn white if moisture gets beneath the film. I’ve gotten white water spotting due to Seal Coat turning white beneath clear waterborne top coats in a couple of instances.

Another thing to consider when using waterborne clears on top of black is white line syndrome aka WLS. Although the term is more associated with the hardwood flooring industry, WLS is when the clears stretch at joints rather than break, and the clears take on an opaque milky white appearance where stretched. Had it happen on a factory finished window and door pack a few years ago and everything needed to be stripped and redone.

I’ve had good long term results with OMU waterborne clears over black alkyds.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Redux said:


> Shellac will turn white if moisture gets beneath the film. I’ve gotten white water spotting due to Seal Coat turning white beneath clear waterborne top coats in a couple of instances.
> 
> Another thing to consider when using waterborne clears on top of black is white line syndrome aka WLS. Although the term is more associated with the hardwood flooring industry, WLS is when the clears stretch at joints rather than break, and the clears take on an opaque milky white appearance where stretched. Had it happen on a factory finished window and door pack a few years ago and everything needed to be stripped and redone.
> 
> I’ve had good long term results with OMU waterborne clears over black alkyds.


I think we are damn lucky to have you here @Redux. Seriously.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I'd be weary of putting Shellac over a waterborne product. As Shellac has a slight amber tone and is also Alcohol based. I would wonder if the Alcohol would react with the paint..?But maybe not.
Let us know!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I think we are damn lucky to have you here @Redux. Seriously.


Thanks….I’ve been very reluctant to use waterborne clears over dark colors after personally experiencing three near-catastrophic incidents of WLS on work amounting to over $400K..the saving grace was all three incidents occurred over bleached white oak, so it wasn’t obvious to the layperson’s eye. Had it happened over black, I’d pretty much be screwed. All three incidents involved three entirely different waterborne clears by three different manufacturers.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> Thanks….I’ve been very reluctant to use waterborne clears over dark colors after personally experiencing three near-catastrophic incidents of WLS on work amounting to over $400K..the saving grace was all three incidents occurred over bleached white oak, so it wasn’t obvious to the layperson’s eye. Had it happened over black, I’d pretty much be screwed. All three incidents involved three entirely different waterborne clears by three different manufacturers.


WLS?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> WLS?


White line syndrome…it’s when a clear finish stretches rather than breaks at joints causing the finish to turn white where it bridges joints. It happens almost exclusively with waterborne clears. The term is more associated with the hardwood flooring industry but also occurs with waterborne clears on millwork, trim, etc.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I finished this cabinet a few months ago. Despite waiting 2 weeks for the paint (Advance) to cure, and working very carefully installing the cane panel, I still managed to scar the door frame and I had to retouch by brush. Also, the base was built separately from the cabinet and I managed to scuff up the board (lower right) during the installation. I had to retouch that also.

I don't have this issue with white or light colors. 

I have another dark cabinet to build (dark blue) for a kitchen island. I am concerned that the finish will cure just as soft as this green cabinet did. That is why I am asking about a topcoat. My clear coated cabinets have a pretty tough film.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Packard said:


> I finished this cabinet a few months ago. Despite waiting 2 weeks for the paint (Advance) to cure, and working very carefully installing the cane panel, I still managed to scar the door frame and I had to retouch by brush. Also, the base was built separately from the cabinet and I managed to scuff up the board (lower right) during the installation. I had to retouch that also.
> 
> I don't have this issue with white or light colors.
> 
> I have another dark cabinet to build (dark blue) for a kitchen island. I am concerned that the finish will cure just as soft as this green cabinet did. That is why I am asking about a topcoat. My clear coated cabinets have a pretty tough film.


I find all the typical 1 part generic paints are the same. The dark colours just don't stand up and mar like crazy.. I've tried Advance, Cabinet Coat, Breakthrough, DTM, Command. Unless you get into the high-gloss, but maybe not a desired look. If your an actual cabinet maker and painting these from fresh stock, you have so many better options for finishes than a repaint. Lots of good waterborne lacquers out there for instance.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Same issue with Emerald Urethane in dark colors. In fact I have a dark blue sample door I sprayed two weeks ago and every day I scratch it to see how long it'll take to cure. It's still easily scratching off down to the prime. I guess one day it won't? 

I've been using the Emerald Urethane for light colors and Breakthrough for dark. Breakthrough is nearly impossible to scratch off just a few hours after applying.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Same issue with Emerald Urethane in dark colors. In fact I have a dark blue sample door I sprayed two weeks ago and every day I scratch it to see how long it'll take to cure. It's still easily scratching off down to the prime. I guess one day it won't?
> 
> I've been using the Emerald Urethane for light colors and Breakthrough for dark. Breakthrough is nearly impossible to scratch off just a few hours after applying.


Are you speaking of the newer v52? I sprayed a sample door with a darker green a couple months ago. Satin. Looks fantastic, but I can still Mar it with my finger nail no problem, It won't scratch off, but definitely mars. Lighter colors are no problem. I go back to jobs that I have done with Advance a few years later and those doors are bullet proof. The darks not so much. The clear is an extra tedious task, but I have had good success with it. The trick is not getting any rack marks on your door prior to clearing!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Another observation when using waterborne clears over alkyds is that in some instances it resulted in moderate to sometimes extreme alkyd yellowing of the underlying paint which it otherwise wouldn’t had it not been clear coated, even with #2 & #3 base colors, but to a much lesser degree with the deeper bases


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