# Benjamin Moore Advance over oil trim



## CraigF (Jul 28, 2013)

Looking for advice. I've had a hit or miss using Advance over oil trim. My typical prep procedure includes includes a full sand, clean with lacquer thinner, vacuum and tack cloth (outside of course of the caulk, nail hole fill, spot prime are wood, etc..). The paint will seam stuck and look fine but on some jobs I can come back in days later and still able scratch off. Am I missing something? I'm trying real hard not to have to go back to oil for trim on my jobs. 

The reps at the store will tell me that Advance sticks to oil then from time to time I'll get " but I always recommend priming first." This in my opinion means it doesn't stick to oil it sticks to primer stuck to oil. If I'm re spraying or brushing the same color over trim it seems pointless to have to use a primer under it. 

Any thoughts?


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## ShermanMoore (Mar 23, 2014)

If you got Advance to stick to oil on some jobs, you got lucky. WB alkyds, in my experience, do NOT have the adhesion of solvent-borne alkyds. I would never put any waterborne finishes over oil without sanding AND priming. The TDS for Advance explicitly states: "Proper adhesion to existing enamel... will require sanding and priming with a specialty primer".


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## CraigF (Jul 28, 2013)

Is there a non oil fast drying primer you'd recommend? Maybe one that could be tinted to similar color? If I have to use an oil primer it defeats the purpose of using advance.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

In my experience, light colours are ok, with basic prep and they get harder after curing.
Dark colours is the main problem we have with Advance. 
If you use a primer first and two coats, what is the point?
We tried tinting STIX primer and using a pearl(satin) finish over it, it almost works.
I think a bonding primer with a slight sheen might be better.
XIM Urethane modified acrylic has a deep base that can be used as clear.
It's not 100% clear but it is very quick to apply, bonds amazingly and can save some time.
Semigloss or gloss over it will still flash with one coat. 
Overall Advance could be better. It's use is limited to light colours and jobs that allow curing time.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

From experimenting in my home, I have to say that the xpert waterborne alkyd has stuck well to the original oil semi I applied when originally painting my millwork. 

I too have used it with the intention of it sticking, but a complete sand would be required. A good one at that. Xpert makes the waterborne alkyd primer, which is incredible, but like you mentioned it defeats the purpose of going straight over the oil as anything with a sheen will need two top coats. 

I have have found the xpert seems to scratch and chip for about a month and then it is rock hard. 

We used an ultra deep colour in a commercial setting 2 years ago. Oil or anything with a potent odour was not allowed so we did a large sand and 2 topcoats of waterborne alkyd. Problem was humidity and it took 2 months to dry rock hard. At that point it has already taken some abuse. But the doors all had to be shut the night we painted them so no way around it.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

If you sand properly, and wipe down with a deglosser then you should be fine.


Here's me sanding an oil based stringer:

http://youtu.be/FrtLFLZmiro


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Scuff sand, Aqua Lock primer then top coat. Never have had a failure with this system over oil when using Advance.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Lambrecht said:


> Scuff sand, Aqua Lock primer then top coat. Never have had a failure with this system over oil when using Advance.


Aqua lock would need to be sanded for a level finish.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Krud kutter gloss off is pretty bad arse :yes: and it can be painted up to a week after you use it.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

From what I've seen it all depends on the prep. On several jobs over the past few years Advance has performed well over existing oil provided the surface is Completely de-glossed and scuffed. Any deviation from this prep procedure seems to invite adhesion problems. 

As much as I want Advance to work for this without primer, I'm beginning to doubt it's overall ability to do the job reliably. We're in the middle of a large restoration project at the moment using Advance over oil. Parts of the project have required priming the trim to facilitate cosmetic repairs, and part of it we have applied the Advance directly. 
I've seen isolated adhesion problems with both the Advance and the primer (Fresh Start acrylic as recommended by BM). And in both cases insufficient de-glossing seems to be the cause. 

I know I could just get Coverstain and not worry about it, but I feel like its imperative to figure out these lower VOC products before they become my only option. Plus I'm tired of smelling the sh!t. Surely we can get some of these WB products to work.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

matt19422 said:


> Aqua lock would need to be sanded for a level finish.


Not if you know how to spray it.:thumbsup:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've seen isolated adhesion problems with both the Advance and the primer (Fresh Start acrylic as recommended by BM).


Ben Moore dealer here: You should see if your BM dealer can get Advance Primer. It's a good product and should have the adhesion necessary for this kind of application. Unfortunately, many BM dealers (including myself) don't stock it because there's not a lot of demand for it.

Can find the info and TDS on it here: http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...-waterborne-interior-alkyd-paint#advs=0&tab=2

It is, unfortunately, a bit slow to dry, but it is more sandable than the Fresh Start.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Some more info in this thread here with people having good luck with adhesion but some sag problems (which I think has been fixed since then): http://www.painttalk.com/f6/advance-over-oil-14676/


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Lambrecht said:


> Not if you know how to spray it.:thumbsup:


My bad, I was thinking brush application


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## CraigF (Jul 28, 2013)

Maybe a dumb question but are you thinking using actual de glosser as final wipe after sanding as apposed to lacquer thinner would give better result?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CraigF said:


> Maybe a dumb question but are you thinking using actual de glosser as final wipe after sanding as apposed to lacquer thinner would give better result?



Not sure who the question was addressed to, but I'll bite. You can tack and de-gloss, but I wouldn't do a final wipe with lacquer, since it can leave residue, wrinkle paint, and damage adjacent surfaces.


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## davezedlee (May 27, 2012)

Advance also takes a week to cure


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

CraigF said:


> Maybe a dumb question but are you thinking using actual de glosser as final wipe after sanding as apposed to lacquer thinner would give better result?



Yes this is what we do. Final wipe with Krud Kutter deglosser after sanding. Seems to work well. I have had the guys do scratch tests on many jobs with good results. 
The problem with bonding primers on a brush job is they won't level as well as the advance, so you are adding brush marks. This is especially true when going over a sprayed finish. We do a lot of jobs that were sprayed originally but when we come in for repaint we just brush and roll. Have had great results with some of the whizz rollers, yellow flocked foam and mohair blends. Can come real close to a spray finish and looks better than some of the spray finishes we run into. 

I don't think the Advance primer is rated for bonding. It's more of a wood primer I thought or a general purpose primer. The tds calls for 046 for going over enamel. We did have good results recently priming over old oil with 046 and the flocked foam rollers and then topcoating with advance.


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

Zinsser Smart Prime is a W/A primer that has great adhesion over most anything. We seriously have a hard time keeping it in stock, our contractor clients love it. http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/smart-prime


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## Jay23 (Oct 23, 2014)

I've used Advance directly on top of oil since it came out and never had a problem. Both residentially & on commercial jobs. Application is a little different because of the fat set up time, I use about 2 ounces of paint thinner in a quart and mix it with a jiffy mixer and that solved my open time. These new water reducible alkyds do take a lot longer to get hard. You should talk to your customers and facilities about the cure time and watch out for the cleaners they use on these surfaces. They are usually bleach or ammonia in them and that will kill the finish


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'd love to hear a bm chemist chime in on mixing paint thinner with Advance. Maybe Spillane will honor us with a post.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Damon T said:


> I'd love to hear a bm chemist chime in on mixing paint thinner with Advance. Maybe Spillane will honor us with a post.


yeah, that's the first I've ever heard of that. Maybe lacquer thinner will help it cure faster?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Hell just mix it 50/50 with satin impervo!


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## boomertlive (Jan 25, 2015)

Full sand,, dust down good, clean.. Wipe down with will-bond.. Apply Advance within half hour after will Bond... Never had a problem... I liked to leave a fan on after first coat!! Second option... Degloss, Stix, Advance!!


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

I would strongly suggest against using paint thinner, at least until I can talk to or BM rep whos due in on Tuesday as is our own company chemist who designed our WRA paints (which I'm guessing are called "water reducible alkyd" for a reason)

From my understanding the WRAs or WAs, whichever term you prefer, usually use a certain soy based resin which blends easily with soy lecithin (am emulsifier) and water at high pH conditions, which is why they often have an ammonia odor


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TDS for Advance says to only thin with water, and never mix with solvents or other paints.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Sorry for the necro. Happy Halloween?

Just want to bump this to see if anyone has had any more experiences with Advance directly over oil in light colors. I'm estimating an interior...trim is an off-white semigloss oil. No color change. The customer wants Advance...the BM dealer told her no priming would be necessary. I'd love to just sand and tack but it's gotta stick.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

DrakeB said:


> Ben Moore dealer here: You should see if your BM dealer can get Advance Primer. It's a good product and should have the adhesion necessary for this kind of application. Unfortunately, many BM dealers (including myself) don't stock it because there's not a lot of demand for it.
> 
> Can find the info and TDS on it here: http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...-waterborne-interior-alkyd-paint#advs=0&tab=2
> 
> It is, unfortunately, a bit slow to dry, but it is more sandable than the Fresh Start.


Takes forever to cure and doesn't sand well.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

804 Paint said:


> Sorry for the necro. Happy Halloween?
> 
> Just want to bump this to see if anyone has had any more experiences with Advance directly over oil in light colors. I'm estimating an interior...trim is an off-white semigloss oil. No color change. The customer wants Advance...the BM dealer told her no priming would be necessary. I'd love to just sand and tack but it's gotta stick.




My experience has been that scuff sand and tack isn't quite enough to ensure a good bond. When I've really pressed them, the BM reps have said total deglossing is necessary. Depending on the existing sheen, sometimes it's easier just to prime. 

I have done it successfully though, just don't skimp on the prep. 


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> My experience has been that scuff sand and tack isn't quite enough to ensure a good bond. When I've really pressed them, the BM reps have said total deglossing is necessary. Depending on the existing sheen, sometimes it's easier just to prime.
> 
> I have done it successfully though, just don't skimp on the prep.
> 
> ...


Hmmm...so sand every square millimeter, or prime and sand the primer anyway. LOL. I think either way my job is really that of a sander, and not a painter. Maybe BIN is the way to go...best leveling primer I can think of. Doesn't seem to bond as well to oil as Coverstain tho, which levels horribly.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

804 Paint said:


> Hmmm...so sand every square millimeter, or prime and sand the primer anyway. LOL. I think either way my job is really that of a sander, and not a painter. Maybe BIN is the way to go...best leveling primer I can think of. Doesn't seem to bond as well to oil as Coverstain tho, which levels horribly.


Oooooo I would not use bin. Would be a pain to apply and it's way to brittle. Dries too fast to brush trim evenly. Are you brushing or spraying paint-primer?

Advance can go over oil, just sand the oil with 220, vac/dust all dust, then slightly damp rag to tack cloth. Although the semi gloss has a little more risk than say old satin impervo. So if the client wasn't against priming... it.might be worth it.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> Oooooo I would not use bin. Would be a pain to apply and it's way to brittle. Dries too fast to brush trim evenly. Are you brushing or spraying paint-primer?
> 
> Advance can go over oil, just sand the oil with 220, vac/dust all dust, then slightly damp rag to tack cloth. Although the semi gloss has a little more risk than say old satin impervo. So if the client wasn't against priming... it.might be worth it.


Client is also against the smell of oil. Ugh...I can't win. I'd really like to use an oil primer. I suppose though the Advance will do fine if I really, really sand the crap out of the previous coating.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Anybody ever try gripper over oil? Just curious....I remember painting bathroom tiles (ding dong commercial gig) with it about 15 yrs ago and was impressed with its adhesion to that slick surface. No prep, just straight over em. Haven't used it since though that I can remember, no real reason...I've been thinking about giving it a test run. I wonder if it's even available anymore?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Anybody ever try gripper over oil? Just curious....I remember painting bathroom tiles (ding dong commercial gig) with it about 15 yrs ago and was impressed with its adhesion to that slick surface. No prep, just straight over em. Haven't used it since though that I can remember, no real reason...I've been thinking about giving it a test run. I wonder if it's even available anymore?


I bet it would do fine. Stix too. But they don't level so well or sand all that great. The trim looks so great right now I'd hate to booger it up with brush marks.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

You don't need to "sand the crap" out of anything. Ugh. If you need a fantastic adhesion primer wouldn't 046 work from Ben moore. Didn't someone do an adhesion test here with a bunch of primers on glass, and 046 killed it. But I think one other guy said it well... Advance has over a week cure. I've never had any adhesion problems after a week over oil and this has been with very light sanding... And like its been said... Advance is a waterborne. So only mix with water... Not solvents.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Anybody ever try gripper over oil? Just curious....I remember painting bathroom tiles (ding dong commercial gig) with it about 15 yrs ago and was impressed with its adhesion to that slick surface. No prep, just straight over em. Haven't used it since though that I can remember, no real reason...I've been thinking about giving it a test run. I wonder if it's even available anymore?


 
homely despot sells it


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> I bet it would do fine. Stix too. But they don't level so well or sand all that great. The trim looks so great right now I'd hate to booger it up with brush marks.


 
or 123 or Fresh Start, they both stick to oil


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

804 Paint said:


> Client is also against the smell of oil. Ugh...I can't win. I'd really like to use an oil primer. I suppose though the Advance will do fine if I really, really sand the crap out of the previous coating.


Advance has a odor it's not odorless by any means. Also takes a good while to cure FYI.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

If it's going over old oil, and the trim is in good shape, why are we concerned with sanding it? New, I understand but we'd likely be blowing latex or hybrid. Old though I'm not sanding diddly over a simple color change if I don't have to...that's what primer is for, Bite. No?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> You don't need to "sand the crap" out of anything. Ugh. If you need a fantastic adhesion primer wouldn't 046 work from Ben moore. Didn't someone do an adhesion test here with a bunch of primers on glass, and 046 killed it. But I think one other guy said it well... Advance has over a week cure. I've never had any adhesion problems after a week over oil and this has been with very light sanding... And like its been said... Advance is a waterborne. So only mix with water... Not solvents.


When I say "sand the crap", I just mean very detailed and thorough sanding to make sure it's completely deglossed. When I scuff sand trim previously painted with acrylic, I pretty much just give it a once over to make sure it's "mostly" deglossed...especially in any high-contact areas. I'm not too worried about it if there's some detail here or there that gets missed in scuffing. I don't feel that way about this venture...Advance over oil.



thinkpainting/nick said:


> Advance has a odor it's not odorless by any means. Also takes a good while to cure FYI.


Yeah, I know. I told her that. I just said it's not quite as noxious a smell as traditional oil. It's been used in her house before. I also put a warning about its cure time in the quote I submitted. Really, this would be a good opportunity to use Breakthrough if only it came in semigloss. 



lilpaintchic said:


> If it's going over old oil, and the trim is in good shape, why are we concerned with sanding it? New, I understand but we'd likely be blowing latex or hybrid. Old though I'm not sanding diddly over a simple color change if I don't have to...that's what primer is for, Bite. No?


Yeah, but if I apply primer for bite, I have to sand the primer anyway to get rid of the brush marks. So I don't really think there is a time savings there.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> When I say "sand the crap", I just mean very detailed and thorough sanding to make sure it's completely deglossed. When I scuff sand trim previously painted with acrylic, I pretty much just give it a once over to make sure it's "mostly" deglossed...especially in any high-contact areas. I'm not too worried about it if there's some detail here or there that gets missed in scuffing. I don't feel that way about this venture...Advance over oil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Duh. No spray. I guess I was thinking about an upcoming job where I have a similar situation...it's vacant though. The previous painters shot the smooth paneled doors and foam rolled the trim. Old impervo.thanks for bumping this thread, it sucks that we're still at a crux with no real solution that we all trust 100% that will eliminate sanding and the mess that goes with it. We're spraying this one out....

I do have to say that in my bosses new house I ran a simple little test on a door frame. Duration, breakthrough and Pitt tech. Duration wouldn't scratch off after about an hour or so. The others did. No primer or other prep. I just slapped it up cuz I had it on my van and was curious. I was fairly impressed, actually. We ended up priming (coverstain)and going with pitttech (Never Again!) As I was curious and switching to ppg products. His place was a testing ground for several products.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Duh. No spray. I guess I was thinking about an upcoming job where I have a similar situation...it's vacant though. The previous painters shot the smooth paneled doors and foam rolled the trim. Old impervo.


LOL, yeah...VERY occupied. One of those places with lots of furniture and knick knacks, piano, rugs on wood flooring.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> LOL, yeah...VERY occupied. One of those places with lots of furniture and knick knacks, piano, rugs on wood flooring.


Good luck with that. Lol.  PITA!


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Breakthrough doesn't look half as good as advance. And when you tell ppl about long cure times, what exactly is your disclaimer? I tell ppl to be delicate with doors and to watch moving furniture etc... But beyond that... What happens if they do?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> Breakthrough doesn't look half as good as advance. And when you tell ppl about long cure times, what exactly is your disclaimer? I tell ppl to be delicate with doors and to watch moving furniture etc... But beyond that... What happens if they do?




It depends on what iteration of BT you are talking about. I've gotten really good results with it. Advance is definitely nicer though. What product would you say gets close to Advance? If you say Regal Select Semi I might throw up in my mouth. Just a little. 

I just warn them that the film will be soft for 20-30 days. They have the option of selecting a faster curing product knowing the finish won't be as nice. If they nick it ding it scratch it, not my problem. Really, what can you do?


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Muralo makes a fantastic waterborne acrylic that's actually a lot better than Advance. It's more expensive and can be hard to find. I don't use wall paint for trim. 
I pretty strictly use advance now. I used to use a lot of ppg advantage 900. Richard's make a trim paint called Rich Shield I think that performs way better than rust scat. 
I lightly sand all my trim, that's it. Never had any adhesion issues. If I was to "sand the crap" out of it, prime it, 2 coats... It would be Ridiculously expensive. Ridiculously. I'd love to do it, but I honestly don't see the point. If homeowners don't have kids I recommend oil. The smell isn't that bad!!


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

Rust Scat is a well kept secret in the industry. Some products may apply a little better, but you will not find one with the adhesion and hardness of WB Rust Scat (the oil is awesome too). I tried using Shercryl, MultiSurface Acrylic, DTM, you name it. None of them adhered to the prepainted concrete walls of the school than Rust Scat. And I'm not even a huge Coronado buyer.

Given the choice, I love using a lacquer undercoater on wood trim, sand smooth (powders great), then spray a coat of Rust Scat (oil preferably) or Advance. Looks like factory finish with a great distinctness of image (DOI). Most folks, unless their automotive painters, don't under DOI. Just imagine looking at a car's finish and notice how much detail that you see in your reflection. Is it hazy? Or is it crystal clear? Higher DOI = crystal clear.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

Did my whole house with advance pearl in Oxford white. All the doors were a semigloss oil. A quick scuff sand and 2 coats of paint that stuff is not going anywhere. You can even scratch it off.

So yea i believe advance works over oil. Done it in many applications with no problems. However fits it's super glossy and slick is prime first.


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