# Delaminated paint



## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

I have a stucco exterior that I repainted about 29 months ago. It was just brought to my attention that some of the paint is failing. I had my paint rep meet me at the home and we walked it with the home owner. At first, I was inclined to think it was a bad batch of paint. Once we pulled off some of the failed paint, we could see the previous coat on the back. This one house had paint failure in several areas on the house.....all 4 sides. All in areas exposed to the elements. Nothing in the covered areas like patio and entry. The previous coat is the builders coat. The home was pressure washed before application of paint and allowed to dry for 2 days. 

My rep sent the samples off to the lab. Lab came back stating paint delamination and possibly stucco delamination. The lab report states the PPG product that I used is adhering and that failure is on the previous coat. 

Heres the twist.........I painted another house just 7 houses down from the one I mentioned above. There is paint failure on that house as well. But only in 2 spots. Both spots are exposed to the elements as well. This house was also painted 29 months ago.

My question is this. Is it possible for the previous coat to delaminate once it has been repainted? I just dont know why this would happen 29 months later.

Thank you for any answers


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Stucco would only delaminate if it was a veneer applied over an existing stucco surface. It could be that an inferior bond coat was applied prior to the stucco veneer.

Were these houses resurfaced with a stucco veneer?


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Stucco would only delaminate if it was a veneer applied over an existing stucco surface. It could be that an inferior bond coat was applied prior to the stucco veneer.
> 
> Were these houses resurfaced with a stucco veneer?


I have never heard the term stucco veneer. The home was built in 2008 or so. Portland Cement stucco. Standard stucco for tract homes in the southwest. So its the original stucco and paint from Beezer Homes.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> I have never heard the term stucco veneer. The home was built in 2008 or so. Portland Cement stucco. Standard stucco for tract homes in the southwest. So its the original stucco and paint from Beezer Homes.


Was the stucco painted or was it simply a color coated un painted stucco? And did you prime before applying a finish?

Note: I reread the OP. Strike the question

It could be that the original paint was applied over the stucco before the stucco was allowed to cure


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Its most likely a new construction home that was fog-coated after stucco. If you don't know what that is look it up. I would guess that the fog coat is releasing from the stucco and off comes your paint. There is not much binder to the fog coat. Best just to scrape the loose stuff, prime then paint it for your client.


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Was the stucco painted or was it simply a color coated un painted stucco? And did you prime before applying a finish?
> 
> Note: I reread the OP. Strike the question
> 
> It could be that the original paint was applied over the stucco before the stucco was allowed to cure



That is what I have been thinking the cause is. So does that mean that the previous coat will continue to break down even after a new coat of paint?


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Its most likely a new construction home that was fog-coated after stucco. If you don't know what that is look it up. I would guess that the fog coat is releasing from the stucco and off comes your paint. There is not much binder to the fog coat. Best just to scrape the loose stuff, prime then paint it for your client.



I am pretty sure it is not a fog coat that was applied at construction. I have been painting here for 33 yrs and I have never known of any painting contractor to do just a fog coat on new stucco. 

That being said......I have seen and heard some questionable things that contractors have done. I know some contractors have used bad/spoiled paint as a primer. My rep told me last week that a contractor got caught just mixing paint together for the exterior finish. The new home owners would come into the paint store with all listed finish and colors on their paperwork and have a gallon of each color made up. Only to find out that the paint didnt match what was on the home. And the home colors didnt match the actual color cards & draw downs.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

What coating did you apply?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

lilpaintchic said:


> What coating did you apply?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



PPG Speedcryl


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Its most likely a new construction home that was fog-coated after stucco. If you don't know what that is look it up. I would guess that the fog coat is releasing from the stucco and off comes your paint. There is not much binder to the fog coat. Best just to scrape the loose stuff, prime then paint it for your client.



I noticed that you didnt say to power wash and then scrape. Is there a reason for that?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> That is what I have been thinking the cause is. So does that mean that the previous coat will continue to break down even after a new coat of paint?


Did you notice any original paint peeling from the stucco surface before you painted? I read that you pressure washed and let dry for two days. 

In any event, this will be a difficult thing to remedy without complete removal of original paint, particularly since it's been recoated. What percentage would you say the stucco paint is failing? 

If this were my job, I would consider the following options depending on what budget was available and given the determination that I was not at fault: 

1. Abrasive blast (This is not an impossible task but would require environmental controls like containment and dust collection. The actual task of sand blasting is not that big of deal for a competent blasting contractor.)

2. Use a masonry surface conditioner compatible with a high ph substrate. (There used to be an oil based product for this purpose, but it's been decades since I've used it.) It is likely too late to apply this. Surface conditioners are designed to be applied over chalky masonry surfaces not newly coated surfaces. 

3. If the percentage of failure is manageable, I would just scrape where the paint is peeling, prime with a masonry primer, and paint. (It's possible that the pressure washing drew alkaline to the surface. If you did not apply a high ph tolerant primer or paint to the prepped stucco, breakdown could occur)


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Did you notice any original paint peeling from the stucco surface before you painted? I read that you pressure washed and let dry for two days.
> 
> In any event, this will be a difficult thing to remedy without complete removal of original paint, particularly since it's been recoated. What percentage would you say the stucco paint is failing?
> 
> ...


The only paint failure I notice was on the fascia. I took care of that before I applied any paint. But there was no peeling paint on the stucco.

I believe the percentage is manageable. Its just spots here and there. Its not peeling off in sheets. If I had to give it a percentage value, I would say less than 10%.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> The only paint failure I notice was on the fascia. I took care of that before I applied any paint. But there was no peeling paint on the stucco.
> 
> I believe the percentage is manageable. Its just spots here and there. Its not peeling off in sheets. If I had to give it a percentage value, I would say less than 10%.


With that assessment, I would eliminate the need to abrasive blast. The recent failure may have been a one time episode. I would treat the problem areas by wire brush, prime, and paint. I'd be leery of introducing more water.


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> With that assessment, I would eliminate the need to abrasive blast. The recent failure may have been a one time episode. I would treat the problem areas by wire brush, prime, and paint. I'd be leery of introducing more water.



Thanks CA. I plan to wire brush it and then prime with Gripper and then follow up with the finish. 

Thanks to all who took the time to reply.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> Thanks CA. I plan to wire brush it and then prime with Gripper and then follow up with the finish.
> 
> Thanks to all who took the time to reply.


The Gripper 60000 TDS does say it's alkali resistant. Good luck!


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> The Gripper 60000 TDS does say it's alkali resistant. Good luck!



I use a lot of PPG products. Gripper is my go to primmer in most cases. The fact that it is alkali resistant was a bonus in this case.

Thanks


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Fog coating is applied by the stucco company not a painting contractor. It is possible that the stucco was painted after stucco, its not as common as leaving the color coat but still a possibility. If that is the case and it is coming loose from the color coat, most likely it got painted too quick (need 30 days to lower ph on masonry) or the if the stucco is coming loose, its just poor bond. Whatever the case is, you can't tell your customer its not my fault, so you most likely will fix it right? 
You can powerwash the house sure, its probably a good idea. But for a small fix its not necessary.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Was the pH checked? What is it? Was it checked on the front and back of the chip and the stucco surfaces in random areas of the failure? When a primer says alkali resistant what does that mean? Use one that says it will tolerate a 13 pH. Ben Moore 608 Ultra Spec Masonry Conditioner says on the PDS “High alkali resistant-up to 13 pH”. Same with the 609 Ultra Spec High Build Primer. Not endorsing a particular brand just know I’ve seen that on their data sheet. Alkalinity may be burning the original coat of paint and losing its bond. It may be time to start with a bare stable surface after checking all structural avenues that are potentially causing the original coating to disbond.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

NACE said:


> Was the pH checked? What is it? Was it checked on the front and back of the chip and the stucco surfaces in random areas of the failure? When a primer says alkali resistant what does that mean? Use one that says it will tolerate a 13 pH. Ben Moore 608 Ultra Spec Masonry Conditioner says on the PDS “High alkali resistant-up to 13 pH”. Same with the 609 Ultra Spec High Build Primer. Not endorsing a particular brand just know I’ve seen that on their data sheet. Alkalinity may be burning the original coat of paint and losing its bond. It may be time to start with a bare stable surface after checking all structural avenues that are potentially causing the original coating to disbond.


The only thing I could find on Dulux 60000 ph tolerance, was from a Break Through finish coat TDS that indicates a tolerance above 10.

CONCRETE: New concrete should cure for at least 30 days and preferably 90 days prior to priming and painting. The pH of the substrate must be less than 10 before painting. If pH is greater than 10, prime with an alkali resistant primer. Prime with Dulux WeatherGuard 1535 or Dulux Gripper 60000 or if chalky surfaces are evident use Perma-Crete Surface Sealer 4-808C or 4-809C.


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Fog coating is applied by the stucco company not a painting contractor. It is possible that the stucco was painted after stucco, its not as common as leaving the color coat but still a possibility. If that is the case and it is coming loose from the color coat, most likely it got painted too quick (need 30 days to lower ph on masonry) or the if the stucco is coming loose, its just poor bond. Whatever the case is, you can't tell your customer its not my fault, so you most likely will fix it right?
> You can powerwash the house sure, its probably a good idea. But for a small fix its not necessary.


In all likelihood, this home was originally painted before the stucco cured. From what I am reading, introduction of water (power wash) will make things worse. The governing body for my license states that I must stand behind my work for 2 yrs. At 29 months, we are past that window of time. That being said, I am going to fix this free of cost because I believe it is the right thing to do.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> In all likelihood, this home was originally painted before the stucco cured. From what I am reading, introduction of water (power wash) will make things worse. The governing body for my license states that I must stand behind my work for 2 yrs. At 29 months, we are past that window of time. That being said, I am going to fix this free of cost because I believe it is the right thing to do.


If you can, a ph test would be a good idea just to confirm your suspicion. I haven't bought a kit in a while, but I'm sure they're available at the paint store.


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## Challenger RT (Jul 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> If you can, a ph test would be a good idea just to confirm your suspicion. I haven't bought a kit in a while, but I'm sure they're available at the paint store.



I can I test for ph when there is no bare stucco?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Challenger RT said:


> I can I test for ph when there is no bare stucco?


You would want to test it on any bare stucco, or under the delaminated chip of paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Repainting stucco is a gamble, and it always has been mainly because of the cheap a55 products they use when they first coat it. We used to sell promar 400 INTERIOR flat for exterior stucco because it was the only paint we had that we could sell cheap enough for the builders to use. They typically will put a cheap, thin coat of the so called "stucco veneer" or "color coat", (quotation marks because it goes by several different names nationwide.) which is essentially a thin coat of stucco tinted to the desired final color or white. The issue comes when it gets painted with a higher quality paint without using the proper primer first! The best way to paint newer stucco is to use a cheap solid stain unless you are going to do some pretty extensive prep and use the correct prime coat. It kind of depends on how much money yo need to turn a profit and whether a new home owner feels like they should have to pay that much to get their house painted.

Stucco refinishing is often another one of those "scam" categories of painting in that to do it correctly takes some expense and products that most people aren't willing to justify, and that there are always plenty of painters willing to do a quick coat of cheap latex solid satin to get a check. There really isn't a happy medium the first time stucco gets painted. It is either pay to do it correctly because the builder did it as cheap as they can or just continue doing the cheap thing. No middle ground.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Repainting stucco is a gamble, and it always has been mainly because of the cheap a55 products they use when they first coat it. We used to sell promar 400 INTERIOR flat for exterior stucco because it was the only paint we had that we could sell cheap enough for the builders to use. They typically will put a cheap, thin coat of the so called "stucco veneer" or "color coat", (quotation marks because it goes by several different names nationwide.) which is essentially a thin coat of stucco tinted to the desired final color or white. The issue comes when it gets painted with a higher quality paint without using the proper primer first! The best way to paint newer stucco is to use a cheap solid stain unless you are going to do some pretty extensive prep and use the correct prime coat. It kind of depends on how much money yo need to turn a profit and whether a new home owner feels like they should have to pay that much to get their house painted.
> 
> Stucco refinishing is often another one of those "scam" categories of painting in that to do it correctly takes some expense and products that most people aren't willing to justify, and that there are always plenty of painters willing to do a quick coat of cheap latex solid satin to get a check. There really isn't a happy medium the first time stucco gets painted. It is either pay to do it correctly because the builder did it as cheap as they can or just continue doing the cheap thing. No middle ground.


There is a difference between a finish coat of stucco over the scratch coat during construction and a resurfacing stucco veneer that could be applied years later. Veneers are typically designed to even out a rough looking stucco exterior. The problem with them is, they are dependent on a bonding sealer, and they are a lot thinner than an original finish coat of stucco.

I've had good results painting over stucco veneers using BM's masonry primer followed by Moorelife exterior flat


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Is the coating soft and mushy? General indicates burn due to high pH. Supponification.


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