# My BM Rep told me not to use Aura



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I am a PPG guy and personally can't justify the cost of Aura to make the switch 90% of the time. One instance, however, was today. I have a living room to paint red and the designer I am doing the work for uses Ben Moore Colors only. When I saw red on the work order, I decided to go over to Ben Moore and get some Aura to save the headache of never ending coats. The rep said "Oh, don't use Aura for this, there's enough red oxide in the mix to cover easily in two coats with super spec or regal." 

Now, I hear a lot of you guys say you use Aura for everything. Please, make me understand why you have made the decision to spend $50 per gallon on paint. One guy on this sites justification was washability and burnish resistance. I think Manor Hall is very washable and have never had a customer say, "now you are sure this paint is burnish resistant, right?" I also hear a lot of you guys say it's just a really good product. I believe that to be true. But aren't interior paints (at least premium lines) all pretty similar? I mean, I have never worried about premature failure with super spec or manor hall. Are you guys really concerned that the paint you were using is no good because Aura is out?

Here's my final question: A lot of you guys say that it's easy to justify the price difference to the client. I have lots of clients say, "so what type of paint do you use?" My reponse is always the same, "we only use high-perfomance premium coatings by PPG." I have never had a client respond, "well, what PPG line is it?" Have you? Exteriors are different. I explain to each and every client that we only use Timeless because of it's lifetime warranty and extreme durability. Exteriors are prone to failure and so people take an invested interest. But interior paint is not going to fail until well after the customer gets sick of the color regardless of whether you are using Manor Hall, WallHide, Super Spec, Regal, or Aura. 

Ok Aura guys, I am not attacking you, I just don't get why you are using so much of this stuff when even my Ben Moore rep is telling me it's overkill.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I am a PPG guy and personally can't justify the cost of Aura to make the switch 90% of the time. One instance, however, was today. I have a living room to paint red and the designer I am doing the work for uses Ben Moore Colors only. When I saw red on the work order, I decided to go over to Ben Moore and get some Aura to save the headache of never ending coats. The rep said "Oh, don't use Aura for this, there's enough red oxide in the mix to cover easily in two coats with super spec or regal."
> 
> Now, I hear a lot of you guys say you use Aura for everything. Please, make me understand why you have made the decision to spend $50 per gallon on paint. One guy on this sites justification was washability and burnish resistance. I think Manor Hall is very washable and have never had a customer say, "now you are sure this paint is burnish resistant, right?" I also hear a lot of you guys say it's just a really good product. I believe that to be true. But aren't interior paints (at least premium lines) all pretty similar? I mean, I have never worried about premature failure with super spec or manor hall. Are you guys really concerned that the paint you were using is no good because Aura is out?
> 
> ...


Penn I have wonderd the same thing, the one thing I here most is how fast you can recoat, good question.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have not found other premium reds to be washable. Also, the even sheen as you sight down a wall towards a window even in deep reds is great. Touch up is good in the deep colors also. Once you get the hang of using it, it is just very nice to work with.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok Aura guys, I am not attacking you, I just don't get why you are using so much of this stuff when even my Ben Moore rep is telling me it's overkill.[/quote]


Ok. I am an Aura guy. Its important to me that this come out the right way...I love Regal and can live very happily with it. Some customers might prefer Aura and be ok with its cost. Aura is not for every customer.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

I have no desire whatsoever to try and convince you to use Aura
I truly don't care if you like it or not

However, when asked why I like it, I will continue to spout what you've been reading from me, so no sense in repeating it here

As for your rep:
You may not know it, but in salesmanville, it's a real easy sale to say the more expensive product is over-priced, and push the mid-price
The customer thinks you helped them out, and played off a fear that the over-priced stuff is just fluff

That's why many line-ups have:
The Cheap Crap
For those customers who buy by price, and will never, ever, buy anything good
The Mid Stuff
Usually a decent product priced as it should be
The Top Tier
Often Mid Stuff with a few cheap bells and whistles, meant for a consumer who figures the most expensive must be the best

It's a cheesy way out for the salesman to diss the Top Tier to sell the Mid Stuff
Sometimes they will even bring in Ridiculously High Priced Stuff with no intention of selling it, just as a buffer to sell more Top Tier

Have you tried the color in SS or Regal?
Has your rep?
The answer is they MIGHT cover in two coats
Bid for three
And your rep should go back to selling stereos or dining room furniture


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Aura is not for every customer.


Nor is it right for every job


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Fast recoat is a nice thing but it seems I can always find something constructive to do until the first coat is dry enough to recoat.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Fast recoat is a nice thing but it seems I can always find something constructive to do until the first coat is dry enough to recoat.


Look there for lost profits.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

The Top Tier
Often Mid Stuff with a few cheap bells and whistles, meant for a consumer who figures the most expensive must be the best

Is this your explanation of Aura?

I didn't ask this guy what I should use, I asked him for Aura Matte. He said, are you sure, I wouldn't use it for that particular color. There was no selling involved, he flat out said he wouldn't have used it after I requested it by name.

I am not asking you to convince me to use it - I am asking why you use it. I probably would never even consider switching. But, if someone on this site could explain the huge benefit of the product, I would love to know because so far, it seems like a lot of hype that everyone thinks is the best thing since sliced bread but can't give me a reason why other than washability and burnish resistance.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't know about lost profits. Lets say I am doing two bedrooms. I cut each room once. Then, I cut the first room a second time and roll. Then I move to the next room and do the same. Then I go back to the first room, roll it out a second time and pull tape, clean up, and replace outlet covers. Then I move to the second room and do the same. No lost time. And, figure two gallons per room at $25 per gallon instead of $50 and look, I made an extra $100.


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

do you usually cut twice and then roll twice???


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I don't know about lost profits. Lets say I am doing two bedrooms. I cut each room once. Then, I cut the first room a second time and roll. Then I move to the next room and do the same. Then I go back to the first room, roll it out a second time and pull tape, clean up, and replace outlet covers. Then I move to the second room and do the same. No lost time. And, figure two gallons per room at $25 per gallon instead of $50 and look, I made an extra $100.


I think more in terms of having a man or two in each room and walking out of both rooms finished and looking sweet faster (not compared to you, but compared to us). 

If that works for you and your clientele, thats really all that matters. Aura is probably not right for your jobs.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hmmm.........

I currently have 5 guys. If the only job we had for the day was a couple of bedrooms, I would leave them at home and do it myself.

Again, even if we had a couple of guys in a room, I would have them clean up and get ready to leave in between rolls.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I have used reds from BM in SS and Regal and never again will I use them, Aura and two coats. Done...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Hmmm.........
> 
> I currently have 5 guys. If the only job we had for the day was a couple of bedrooms, I would leave them at home and do it myself.
> 
> Again, even if we had a couple of guys in a room, I would have them clean up and get ready to leave in between rolls.


I had a feeling you might take that the wrong way.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't take it the wrong way, I am just saying that I would rather get a couple of commercial fans going in the room to dry things off than spend $20 extra per gallon just for something that dries a little quicker.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

If, say, $100 is make or break on your jobs, then maybe Aura isnt a good bet for you.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Vermont, let's say I do 2 bedrooms by myself every day. That $100 becomes $500 per week. Over $2000 every month. If you are in the position to piss away that much money, all the better for you. But personally, I'll take my $24,000 per year and keep a smile on my face while painting away with my Manor Hall.

Everyone on this site loves to show off how successful they are by making comments like you just did. In all honesty, it's stupid. No offense Vermont but do you really not care about $100 per job? You love that phrase make or break too. The $100 isn't breaking the bank - it's just a poor business decision in my opinion. I buy top quality paint at half the cost. I have never had a problem with it drying and haven't been conned into spending $250 every time I need a fiver.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PR

Seems you are taking feedback personally tonight. Like Slick said, use whatever works for you...no one really cares.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

But either way the client is paying for the paint and if your marking the Aura 20 or 25% I don't see the problem with it. I have been able to bill out an 8 hour job and get it done sooner with Aura and that put money in my pocket.

PR if you don't like Aura don't use it, ever since you came to this site you seem to just want to stir the pot... Agree to disagree once in awhile. 

Personally I think Auras good paint, I charge my client the retail plus markup so I am not losing money by using it. I think PPG makes good paint just don't have it readily available as I do BM. Use what you want and move on...


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Brother, you take a shot and then tell me I am taking it personally. I wish someone could just answer the question. I guess no one has a good answer. Dry time and washability aren't good enough reasons for me to spend that much per gallon.

I also noticed you have nothing to say about the goofey $100 comment either.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I am not trying to stir the pot. I was just asking why everyone swears by it. Like I said, I think its a quality product.

As far as charging clients for it - yes, you can. But I charge $12 extra per gallon with Manor Hall. I think I would have to charge less mark up if I used that expensive of a paint.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Brother, you take a shot and then tell me I am taking it personally. I wish someone could just answer the question. I guess no one has a good answer. Dry time and washability aren't good enough reasons for me to spend that much per gallon.
> 
> I also noticed you have nothing to say about the goofey $100 comment either.


 
You asked people to convince you why you should use Aura. You seemed to have your mind pretty well made up that its not right for you. Myself and perhaps Slick were in agreement with you that its probably not right for you. You got upset, and when you get upset you have a pattern of lashing out about your success. I think thats what happened here. Honestly, use whatever paint you want. Buy more Aura and use it on a dozen jobs and form your own opinion. Just dont get upset. There are much more important tasks at hand.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Alright, enough. You use it, I don't. Good enough for me. Now, I am only still responding here because I am waiting on a reply to my faux finishing question. Any one know how to suede?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I am not trying to stir the pot. I was just asking why everyone swears by it. Like I said, I think its a quality product.
> 
> As far as charging clients for it - yes, you can. But I charge $12 extra per gallon with Manor Hall. I think I would have to charge less mark up if I used that expensive of a paint.


so your at $42 for manor hall?? and lets say you have a difference of $18 a gallon for Aura, on a 2 gallon bedroom job are you gonna lose the job over 36$ ?


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Would I loose the job, no. But I would rather mark my Manor Hall up more than spend more for Aura.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*I can't believe this...*

Havin' a hard time with some of the rationale here...

A BM-rep saying a type of paint is overkill. 
WOW.
A painter wasting time pondering why a few extra $$ for a top-notch paint is justified.
WOW.

Who the &#*% CARES what it costs?!?!? If the client wants a damn good paint AND paint-job, and is willing to pay for it, why is there 1 ounce of debate here?!??!

That BM rep is pretty damn arrogant...assuming "paint X" is or isn't "right" for a job...it's not their place to decide something for a customer.
WOW. 

If I was the client here...I know ONE supplier who wouldn't be making my paint!

Faron
(Couple weeks ago...tinted $2,600 worth of C2 paint for a new house here. They're gonna let me see the home when their painters' done!! Not a white wall or ceiling in the place. It was kinda cool...they walked in and handed me their floorplans. They had C2 colors :notworthy:chosen & noted for every room & ceiling. "Figure it up" they said. "Can we pick up the paint in 2 days?":blink


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Here's my take on your problem. Like you I am a PPG fan and last month I was telling my supplier about a job where I used S/W duration (customer wanted a non-voc product) and I wanted to save a few bucks and it took 4 coats in "Yellow Raincoat". 
So, the PPG rep was there and told me we should try the Timeless (their best, and a great paint), that it would cover in two coats. I doubted it and told them so, so they gave me 2 gallons. One mixed in BM's "Yellow Raincoat" and one in a red (which I cannot remember). The red took three coats to cover over a white wall and I have not tried the yellow yet.

Moral of the story:

A smart man learns from his mistakes........................

A wise man learns from a smart man's mistakes!


Don't re-invent the wheel, use the experience of others here. Paint is cheaper than labor. For the last year every red and yellow we used was in *Aura* and they all covered in two coats. In a quest to save a few bucks, I failed even though I knew better. Be a wise man.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> The Top Tier
> Often Mid Stuff with a few cheap bells and whistles, meant for a consumer who figures the most expensive must be the best
> 
> Is this your explanation of Aura?


No
With paints, unlike washing machines, you tend to get what you pay for


PinnacleResidential said:


> I didn't ask this guy what I should use, I asked him for Aura Matte. He said, are you sure, I wouldn't use it for that particular color. *There was no selling involved*, he flat out said he wouldn't have used it after I requested it by name.


Yes there was selling involved
And also, your rep is addition to being a poor salesman, your rep is also an idiot
This was a perfect time to sport you a few cans, and he blew it

Sounds more like a counter guy sick of contractors bitching about the price so he just headed you off at the pass

Either way, he made a mistake

Again, two coats of Regal MIGHT do it, bid for three
Two coats of Aura WILL do it


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

No arguement here for many reds. I said in my initial post that I have used Aura on NEEDED occasions. However, just because the paint has a red hue doesn't mean it will take 3, 4, or 5 coats. If a paint is strong in red oxide, it will cover fine. Red oxide has good hiding properties. SS covered this particular red with only two coats. 

I don't think that Aura is overkill in certain situations. I just think that using it on every paint job for every occasion is a waste of profit


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Faron79 said:


> Havin' a hard time with some of the rationale here...
> 
> A BM-rep saying a type of paint is overkill.
> WOW.
> ...


Are you serious? A paint store rep should guide it's clients. I don't claim to know it all so when I ask a question at the store, I expect a knowledgable answer.

In this economy, you better start wondering if $50 per gallon is justifiable. I don't know about you but our phone has slowed to a trickle in recent weeks and profit per job is becoming more important than ever. I am doing an interior right now that is going to take about 20 gallons on the walls. That's $500 in my pocket if I use Manor Hall instead of Aura. I charged this client $50 per gallon with my mark up and the designer told me that we got the job because we were $100 less than the other guy. $100!!!! These days people care about that $100 here and there and in this instance, had I used Aura I would have lost the bid. When all is said and done, I am very pleased with the profit I am making on the job, I am pleased with the product we are using, and most of all, I am pleased that we booked up a couple of extra weeks because I didn't fall for the "this is the best paint on earth" smoke and mirrors that it seems you have. At the end of the day, I'll have an extra $500 to do what I please when you would have been sitting there wondering why the client never called you back.

I don't like selling a job on price. I am usually the high bidder on jobs, sometimes I'm the middle, sometimes the lowest. I would rather have a client higher me for quality than to save a couple of bucks. However, no matter what a client hires you for, the key point is that they hired YOU. If I need to book up some work and I have a client that is buying price, I'll negotiate. Many of the folks on this site won't. But at the end of the day, even if I was only making $100 for the day of work, at least that number wasn't $0. Everyone here, at some point, whether they admit to it or not, has sold their job on price. It's sometimes the only way to get a particular client and it makes business sense because that client will become a client for life if you help them out a little bit and do an outstanding job on their home.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Faron, you work at a paint store? You have never had a client ask you what paint was right for a particular application? Then you want to tell a painter that runs his own company not to worry about spending $$$$$ on a paint because it's sooooo high quality?

Your rationale is off...........................
Let's say Aura was $100 per gallon. Should I still buy it? Screw it, in your opinion, I shouldn't care what it costs as long as you paint store guys promise:

"It's the best paint in the whole wide world Mr. Painter Man......."


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## johnisimpson (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Pinnacle, you ask "why use aura?" Reasonable questions, except that I've been following the boards now for a while and feel that there have been numerous examples and testimonials as to why to use Aura and I'm not sure how you missed them. One of the biggest reasons people here cite is that it covers in fewer coats. You say you get good coverage in same number of coats with other SS and Regal, well, great. Keep doing what you're doing and let others do what they're doing. The question has already been answered and you somehow have different experiences with it than a lot of others here. And forget about debating the $100 extra in material costs and how important that is. It's like bringing up the importance of a single branch when you're missing the tree and the whole [email protected] forest. There's too much detail and individuality to pricing to berate anyone on the materials cost difference between aura and timeless.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't want to berate anyone. I was asking because I didn't understand why someone would pay so much for a gallon of interior paint. If someone had said something fantastic other than good coverage and dry time, I may have made the switch. I am not too stubborn in my ways to know when someone else is right.

I was reading through this site a while back and came across a post regarding everyone's favorite brushes to use. A lot of people said Wooster Ultra Firm. I had always been a Purdy XL Glide man myself but everyone had such positive things to say about the brush and how it was firm enough to cut a perfect line but soft enough to be versatile and that sounded good to me so I tried it. I will never pick up another Purdy.

My hope was that someone would shed some light on what I was missing about Aura and instead, I had, as expected, a bunch of guys essentially tell me I am too cheap to buy the paint and how $100 will break my business. As is typical with this site, the loudest mouths, and quickest to reply to posts, never have an answer to the question asked. Had someone just said, "I like it because it covers well and it dries fast," I would have said, "nothing else?" They would have said, "no." And I would have said, "oh, ok." And moved on with my day because that wouldn't make it worth my extra money.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PR

That post is helpful.

I have seen enough to know that I have seen too much.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PR, you keep mentioning the difference in cost and extra money in your pocket if you buy Aura and mark it the same % as your PPG there is no lose of money. The client pays for the paint and you profit on the markup... Which would be more based on wha tthe paint costs.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i went to the ice cream parlor today, i wanted rocky road, but the chick behind the counter said the moose tracks was better, so i got some. i thought it sucked, especially with the peanuts in it,,,

im totally freaked out about this,,,she said it was good, what flavor do you guys say i should get, and dont give me some line of b.s.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> i went to the ice cream parlor today, i wanted rocky road, but the chick behind the counter said the moose tracks was better, so i got some. i thought it sucked, especially with the peanuts in it,,,
> 
> im totally freaked out about this,,,she said it was good, what flavor do you guys say i should get, and dont give me some line of b.s.


John, don't stir the pot  don't you have beer to drink at the Livery ??


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

My point was that my clients have asked what type of paint I use (PPG, BM, SW) but never what line. Why not mark my Manor Hall up to $60 and make even more. 

Look, you guys that use Aura and are happy with it - great. I am not telling you to stop using it. I was just asking if there was something special about it that I had missed. I get the dry time and everything, but I'd like to find a paint that applies itself to the wall. At $50 per gallon, I was hoping this was the one!


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Well when most other paints are forced to goto waterborne tints, your PPG will be 50$ a gallon anyways.. along with all others...


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I'll give you that, prices have been going up all year.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

very good point,,,,its the wave of the future.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I also agree with Pinnacle's assessment of material costs. That is an excellent point, and one that most of us have probably missed in our mindlessly blind use of Aura.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Vermont, let it rest. You use Aura, I don't. And I have found a great method to get my sub-standard paint to dry!!!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

let it rest vermont, enough sarcasm


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> let it rest vermont, enough sarcasm


Said the pot to the kettle :laughing:


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

John, I looked at your website - looks like very nice work.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

dont look to close, youll find plenty of mistakes


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> dont look to close, youll find plenty of mistakes



in the site or the work ???


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i have found fault in both


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*The qualities of "quality"...*

Hey PR & others,
Sorry if I was comin' off as "Snooty" in my post!!

I'm just saying that it's not the Rep's OR the Painters place to be deciding that the customer doesn't want/need a paint like Aura, C2, Timeless...or whatever....

What really irks me is people like that BM Rep. In essence, he's not giving the customer a chance at a high-end paint because HE thinks it's overkill.
THAT'S pretty darn arrogant.

Give THEM the right to decide!

Separately...
Others here have mentioned that the actual materials costs are the smallest part of the job...obviously. If the customer cares more about the price of the gallons than the total quality of the job, something's a little short-sighted there.

>>> Give them what they want...a high-quality paint-job using high-quality materials. Don't spend useless time quibbling about a few $$/gallon.

>>> Top-notch paints have the most....
* Percentage of Volume solids; which is what remains ON THE WALL...NOT evaporating away.
* The best levels of Rheology-modifiers. These are low-level ingredients affecting spatter-resistance & flow, etc., but have a big impact on price, depending on their quality.
* The best binders/resins, which hold the whole film together. There's a HUGE variation in this category of ingredients...therefore, a BIG variation in price.
* Depth & complexity of color, along with fade-resistance OF those colorants/pigments.
* Let your clients KNOW this!!! When they understand why it's worth it, the $$/gal. becomes meaningless.
* Remember...you're also paying for those big companies R & D budgets too!

C2 is a much smaller company. No national company ad-budgets, overhead, etc. All the effort/cost of materials goes into the paint.
* The tinter we use is a big D-600 COROB, that uses the C2-specific SIXTEEN colorants.
* 99% of paint lines out there use 9-11 colorants.
* The tinter/computer setup was in the area of $20,000...for ONE line of paint.
* You and your date could have a nice dinner-for-two for the price of ONE qt. of C2 "HR" (High-strength Red) colorant!

All the above info. is what I briefly explained to the couple. No BS, no "flowery" language, no talking-down any other lines of paint. I don't do that. I explained the benefits of higher-grade paints, etc. Only spent about 10 minutes with them...casual conversation...explaining what I just described...

Couple weeks later, as I stated, they came in and handed me their house-plans:yes::thumbup:. 
I had only spent a few seconds discussing price at their first visit...

Faron


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## mcf16 (Oct 29, 2008)

We used Aura Matte (Medium Gold color) on 1 job, because customer supplied the paint. A two story narrow foyer. Had a lot of trouble with roller marks. Never had this problem before nor since. We use Regal and SS without issue, but Aura gave us alot of trouble. I like to keep the customer happy, get the job done and move on. My only experience with Aura and the BM rep slowed the whole process down. I feel that there are many quality products out there to use, but the lack of knowledge or training on some of the newer products out there, can cost contractors from time to time. That will stop contractors from moving from a comfortable and profitable product to what we are going to be forced to use in the future. I hope that the industry will educate everyone on the benefits and downfalls of every product, and then let us choose. Don't lead us to believe that one product is superior for all applications. I haven't found one yet.


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## Art Works Interiors (Apr 4, 2008)

Anybody looked at the PPG Pro power tools offer?

Is it any good?


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

Spot on Faron!! Well done. Signature Service!


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

mcf16 said:


> We used Aura Matte (Medium Gold color) on 1 job, because customer supplied the paint. A two story narrow foyer. Had a lot of trouble with roller marks. Never had this problem before nor since. We use Regal and SS without issue, but Aura gave us alot of trouble. I like to keep the customer happy, get the job done and move on. My only experience with Aura and the BM rep slowed the whole process down. I feel that there are many quality products out there to use, but the lack of knowledge or training on some of the newer products out there, can cost contractors from time to time. That will stop contractors from moving from a comfortable and profitable product to what we are going to be forced to use in the future. I hope that the industry will educate everyone on the benefits and downfalls of every product, and then let us choose. Don't lead us to believe that one product is superior for all applications. I haven't found one yet.



interesting because I have had the best luck with Aura and roller lines, always thought SS sucked for showing roller lines esp. on the big foyer walls which we do a lot of...


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Hi PR,
I hope you see this post, as it's at the end of a long thread. I was interested in your application technique, where you describe cutting in one room, cutting in the next, coming back to room one, cutting and rolling, same in #2, then a final roll only coat in each room. Ironically Aura specifically specs out cutting in first and rolling after cut line is dry, I have never tried this with other paints. Do you do this only with flat, or with sheens as well (for example in Manor Hall, which I love but is very limited in Seattle)? 
thanks 
Damon


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

ive had no application problems with aura.

finest wall paint made.

i can hardly wait to use my rewards points. thanks benjamin moore.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Was this recommendation made by a Benjamin Moore Employee or from an employee of the retailer from which the Aura was purchased?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*Aura*



high fibre said:


> ive had no application problems with aura.
> 
> finest wall paint made.


 
Maybe I should try it again. I thought it was horrible. My employer at the time used BM for everything, and we had a change order on some walls that were already finished. The lady wanted a dark purple on some accent walls.

So my employer bought the aura to try to one coat the walls.

It held 3 times the pigment that's for sure, but it was sticky and rubbery and wierd.

It didnt flow off the roller at all, and it was so thick that it pulled off every where where there was a stipple from the roller, so we wound up painting a second coat any way.

I prefer liquidy paints that hold a lot of pigment and don't spatter so the paint really flows off the roller, and is easier to keep a wet edge. ( when using paints with sheen )

I have been wondering if the one coat precident set by using aura is going to threaten job security? I hope it doesn't mean that all other manufacturers are going to start shooting for a similar product.

I hate it when changes come along and all manufacturers decide to jump on the bandwagon, then you can no longer buy the products that used to work better.


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## Boyfromthenorth (Jun 18, 2008)

Maybe I missed it. But how come nobody on here mentioned Californias Super Scrub Ceramic Eggshell. Its cheaper than Aura. Its on par price wise with Regal and it comes in a Red Base which covers in two coats. I've done accents on furniture with it on bare wood in two coats. Seriously TWO COATS ALWAYS!!!!!!


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Maybe I should try it again. I thought it was horrible.


There is def. a learning curve...some of the old standby application techniques do not apply
In fact, some lead to frustration



Last Craftsman said:


> I have been wondering if the one coat precident set by using aura is going to threaten job security?


1) Sell the job quality, the finished product (at which Aura excels, on many levels), not the labor
Seriously, unless you are just a Labor Monkey With A Brush
2) After two dozen Aura jobs I could honestly say not one* was a "One Coat"
To be fair, some looked "OK', but each and every one rec'd two coats*
*aside from some same color maint. coatings which were one-coaters anyway

Again, there is no true One-Coat Paint
Not even Aura

However....it has (more than often) saved me a coat...and saved me labor in more subtle ways


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Kinda reminds of a PDCA meeting here years ago...The "then" president of the local PDCA wanted all the members to boycott SW because SuperPaint had a 25yr warranty. He actually wanted us to bow our heads and pray about it; not once but 3 times! I told him if God was really telling him thats what he should do, he should do it; but I was getting a totally different message. (The average house in this area gets painted every 6 to 8 years). I took him aside after the meeting and explained that there were medications available for any possible affliction he might have. All of us have our personal preferences for what tools, equipment, product, etc., we use. Does it make us wrong if we disagree with what others use? I'm in my 26th year of doing this professionally and I'm still open to learning and trying a new product, but there are times I resort back to what I like and am used to. It's not up to me to tell someone else they're wrong, (especially on a forum), or that they're running their business wrong, profits, etc.. One thing I've noticed on this forum are the large egos and really how fragile they really are. I've always felt that keeping things informative and constructive are the way to go. But hey, you guys do what you want; at times it makes for some real entertaining reading. Just my .02.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*aura*



slickshift said:


> There is def. a learning curve...some of the old standby application techniques do not apply
> In fact, some lead to frustration
> 
> 
> 2) After two dozen Aura jobs I could honestly say not one* was a "One Coat"


I don't want to have to change the way I have cut and rolled for 15 years to use a paint that is twice as expensive, and doesn't save any time on labor.

I guess I don't see the point of using it. I read an article in wired magazine about the paint, and it showed how the molecules in the binder actually held 3 times as much pigment.

That made sense to me as to why I should spend twice as much money on the paint, to save labor. If not, it seems like a waste.

Much more important than the cost is I really need the paint to flow effortlessly off the roller, and off my brush, and I dont want to see a big difference where I have cut it, and where I have rolled.

The Aura I used was like painting liquified rubber epoxy or something. It really was drastically different to apply than any other paint I have ever used.


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## mjkpainting (Feb 12, 2008)

*When do you use Aura*

Hey
The guys that use Aura- do you use it in all colors or do you use it for the darker 2B or 3B colors??????

For example would you use Aura for a linen white and try and get away with one coat?????? Just curious.

I use it for dark colors and I really like it.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

mjkpainting said:


> Hey
> The guys that use Aura- do you use it in all colors or do you use it for the darker 2B or 3B colors??????
> 
> For example would you use Aura for a linen white and try and get away with one coat?????? Just curious.
> ...


I was just given some white to finish some cabinets. The paint was comp'ed after some problems with another coating. I used the WB Impervo on earlier coats so I was able to compare the Low Lustre WB Impervo to the Satin Aura both in white. I think the Satin Aura had a far superior finish and appearance and will use the lighter colors again. 

I love if for darker colors but usually only use it if I can skip a coat with the coverage. If I run into something that would be able to show its appearance off I would buy it in lighter colors. If it is going to take two coats anyway or on a marginal room or substrate I can't justify the cost. 

I honestly have not had a hard time adjusting to it. Unless you have worked with only one paint for the last 15 years I just don't see where it would be so difficult. No different than adjusting between a semi-gloss and a flat, oil and a latex, etc.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Again, there is no true One-Coat Paint
> Not even Aura


I dunno...

This was the first time I used it and I did take my time when I was applying it but it really did cover excellently in one coat. This was over a contractor linen crap off white.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I really cannot see how someone would have a problem with how it rolls. Nothing rubbery about it at all. For me, getting the cut-in just right where I was benefiting from the better coverage, but not getting an sags was the challenge. With a little of the extender, satin white brushed out great on trim.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I bet BM is working on making it less finicky. They have never been ones to rest on their laurels.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

You cant even get aura in Boise


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Tonyg said:


> I was just given some white to finish some cabinets.
> 
> I honestly have not had a hard time adjusting to it. Unless you have worked with only one paint for the last 15 years I just don't see where it would be so difficult. No different than adjusting between a semi-gloss and a flat, oil and a latex, etc.


 
You used some on cabinets? I thought it was strictly a wall paint. It also functions as an enamel?

The acrylic enamels I use like impervo, miller, sw all surface, look like oil when I spray them out. The finish is thin, very hard, very durable, and zero orange peel.

I can not imagine the aura that I used even remotely functioning as an actual "enamel". 

Perhaps I used a bad batch or something, and should try aura again.

It really was different then any paint I ever used, it was in it's own category entirely with how rubbery and weird it went on.

I started painting 1989 and have not been doing it continuously, but I have used probably dozens of different brands of wall paint over the years, and the aura was in it's own category.

That isn't to say that I thought it was the worst paint, just that there was something about it that was difficult to work with that made it stand apart from all other paints.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I don't want to have to change the way I have cut and rolled for 15 years to use a paint that is twice as expensive, and doesn't save any time on labor.
> 
> I guess I don't see the point of using it. I read an article in wired magazine about the paint, and it showed how the molecules in the binder actually held 3 times as much pigment.
> 
> ...


 
That sounds shady to me.

I know I can make a paint that holds 3x as much pigment as is loaded now. There ARE pigment to binder ratios to consider, but getting it in there without settling wouldn't be a problem for me I think. 

(disclaimer: I don't make wall paint, so I could be full of ****.)


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I bet BM is working on making it less finicky. They have never been ones to rest on their laurels.


 
This is something I had a talk about with someone else in the industry and maybe you could answer:

People in the pro category just "think" that BM makes the best wall paint because everyone says so and not because they actually do. People believe it to be true from some hype and it is not actually the best.



I can't judge how to answer this question, but I understand the psychology behind the question. Hopefully some of you can shed some light on this?

Carter


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

That kind of hype has existed in the paint industry for years about all kinds of company's... I agree that a lot of designers pushed BM and it got a rep... The old guys I worked for used P&L and when it basically went away the other brand that independent stores carried was BM and that's how I transitioned into it... There are just as good brands out there.. but to me seems like in the last 5 years or so BM has made some strides in getting newer and different products out there for the pro to use.

Every company has good and bad sides... use what you like and moost importantly use who gives you good service!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My store carries a couple brands. When I started interior painting in 2000 aquavelvet turned me off to BM, since Graham Ceramic Flat was available also. Now that BM has reformulated and came out with Aura, I like them again. It sounds like BM is really leading the way in innovation with the stuff they have in the pipeline.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Wall paints in general I would say BM. They put a lot into rheology package. The negative about them is cost.

Carter: What gives?


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

Don't we have a yawn icon?:no:


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

NACE said:


> Wall paints in general I would say BM. They put a lot into rheology package. The negative about them is cost.
> 
> Carter: What gives?


 
I like the way it applies on the wall. That's all. I think it's a good paint and even an amateur like myself can tell the difference between BM and a can of valspar. As far as I know though, those bells and whistles don't make up for it being 45-60 / gallon or whatever ridiculous cost it is.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Formulator said:


> People in the pro category just "think" that BM makes the best wall paint because everyone says so and not because they actually do. People believe it to be true from some hype and it is not actually the best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found this to be true even three decades ago. Well, not to say that "People in the pro category" thought this, because I certainly never did. I think it was the HO who fell for the national ad campaign and the name recognition. It wasn't a bad paint, just not as good as some local brands back then. Hancock and California, IMHO, were superior. California had 100% acrylics long before BM. Hancock's flat alkyd did not flash like sani-flat. (don't get me going on how much I hated sani-flat  )

But that's just for interior wall paint. Their exterior oil was a good product. 

Brand recognition has a lot to do with it, and it snowballs. People recognise the name, so they buy it; because people buy it, it is sold in more stores; because it is sold in more stores, people recognise the name; because people recognise the name, the more they buy it; etc etc etc


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

The behr phenomenon.


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## zerowned (Jul 23, 2008)

(note that this is not zerowned, but his wife)

I happen to work at a Benjamin Moore store, as well as owning a painting company.

Has nobody here noticed what Aura is made with? The health implications are insane, and so depending on how often you are using it absolutely make sure you are in a WELLLLLLLLLLLLLL ventilated area, with no children or pets around. It may be claimed to be low (or is it "no") VOC but that doesn't mean its healthy :/ You want to make sure you don't spray it without a respirator (and I've heard store owners say they wouldn't even roll/brush/open a can it without a respirator)

Otherwise, I've heard many good things, but more bad things. The store I'm in wont even bring it in due to the number of bugs they're working out.

I haven't used it, will probably try it out (in a spaceman suit...), but definitely prefer the Collection line. (I believe Regal to you American's). Painting has enough health problems related to it as it is


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## VAInteriors (May 12, 2007)

zerowned said:


> (note that this is not zerowned, but his wife)
> Has nobody here noticed what Aura is made with? The health implications are insane, and so depending on how often you are using it absolutely make sure you are in a WELLLLLLLLLLLLLL ventilated area, with no children or pets around. It may be claimed to be low (or is it "no") VOC but that doesn't mean its healthy :/ You want to make sure you don't spray it without a respirator (and I've heard store owners say they wouldn't even roll/brush/open a can it without a respirator)


What is it made out of? It sure seems greener than most of the paints out there. Its greenguard certified as well as some others I think. It sounds to me like the store owners are being dramatic. I've never had a problem with it.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Formulator said:


> People in the pro category just "think" that BM makes the best wall paint because everyone says so and not because they actually do. People believe it to be true from some hype and it is not actually the best.


Not true...well that [all] pros think that BM makes the best wall paint
You'll find plenty of pros that prefer something else

The branding thing though...

In most cases, I believe it is a Chevy/Ford thing
Does one brand make the best, and the other crap?
No
Depending on your specific needs, one may have better offerings than the other, but that's about it
But we (in this society) tend to like to make ourselves feel better by clinging to these identifiers (see: people who don't work for the franchise say "_we_ won" when their favorite sports team wins a contest)

Sort of in the same vein, you can see that surveys will indicate most customers feel their Saturns had less problems then their Chevies or Fords
In reality, they had exactly the same amounts
But when they came into the dealer, Saturn buyers got an understanding ear, a cup of coffee, a "No problem, we'll take care of it" rather than the cold shoulder and some avoidance of responsibility, and the slim chance of a fix after multiple trips
(this was exceptionally noticeable a few years ago, the other companies have read these reports and some have focused to improve)

My point is, as long as you are talking apples to apples, and aside from some specific products that excel for specific apps, it's mostly about perception rather than reality
This would include a brand loyalty not necessarily based on actual evidence, facts, or data

However, a familiarity with the products from experience, can be a factor also
I feel this point is legit, as someone who has worked with a "lesser" product for years can certainly make it "out-perform" a newb with the latest greatest or biggest name
At the very least they may know it's limits, what it can do or not, and how much it can be pushed

So a (specific) pro thinking BM makes the best wall paint may be just following the herd, looking for that identifying factor, or, as it's a just fine paint anyway, actually be better off using it for service or familiarity reasons


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

zerowned said:


> (note that this is not zerowned, but his wife)
> 
> I happen to work at a Benjamin Moore store, as well as owning a painting company.
> 
> ...



I just re-read the MSDS sheets, and the only hazard is the usual inhaling of spray mist or sanding dust, which is common to all paints to the best of my knowledge. Crystalline silica is in there as the only known carcinogen and titanium dioxide as a possible one. Does not sound like insane health implications to me, but rather the standard precautions we have had to deal with for ever. At least the solvent hazards are gone. Nothing listed about any solvents that I could find. I think brushing and rolling without a respirator will be just fine, unless you have knowledge about Aura that is completely new information:thumbsup:

Bugs have been very few if any that I have seen with this product.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

zerowned said:


> (note that this is not zerowned, but his wife)
> 
> I happen to work at a Benjamin Moore store, as well as owning a painting company.
> 
> ...


Some evidence to back up this strong claim would be helpful. Otherwise, we might just think that the store you work in doesnt have the capital to invest in the Gennex mixing technology to bring in an ultra-premium line and are making silly excuses to disguise their embarrassment. It does happen, so any facts to substantiate your generalities would be a great way to avoid spreading slanderous misinformation. And, if you really own a paint company (in addition to working in the paint store), you would know that nobody really sprays anything without wearing a respirator.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> ...Otherwise, we might just think that the store you work in doesnt have the capital to invest in the Gennex mixing technology to bring in an ultra-premium line and are making silly excuses to disguise their embarrassment...


Most stores that do do wish to invest the substantial sums, for whatever reason(s) must have the counter persons say something to people that ask
Those of us that have dealt with, deal with, and/or recognize the sales manager instruction (to the salesperson) "You can say that..." when the sales person is presented an objection, tend to take these lines with a grain of salt
A simple " We ain't buying a $40K machine 'till it's been out a year" would suffice
Of course, it's been well over a year now (and millions of gallons), so I guess a new line is in order


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Most stores that do do wish to invest the substantial sums, for whatever reason(s) must have the counter persons say something to people that ask
> Those of us that have dealt with, deal with, and/or recognize the sales manager instruction (to the salesperson) "You can say that..." when the sales person is presented an objection, tend to take these lines with a grain of salt
> A simple " We ain't buying a $40K machine 'till it's been out a year" would suffice
> Of course, it's been well over a year now (and millions of gallons), so I guess a new line is in order


I agree. And Dean's analysis from the msds is right on. This is starting to feel like a drive by BM bash and run post. When you mods check isp locations can you detect BM competitors as well?


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Regardless from whence it came (<---heheh...I said "whence"), it certainly is something we as consumers hear, whether from a competitor, or from a dealer that doesn't carry it
So I think it's healthy to discuss these things
I'd like to comment more, but I still can't believe I typed "whence"


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Regardless from whence it came (<---heheh...I said "whence"), it certainly is something we as consumers hear, whether from a competitor, or from a dealer that doesn't carry it
> So I think it's healthy to discuss these things
> I'd like to comment more, but I still can't believe I typed "whence"


I too am eager to learn from our new contributor who comes bearing new information about the BM's skullduggery. I can't believe I typed "skullduggery". Could we set up an online scrabble tournament now that NEPS' football league is winding down?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't know of what you gentle personages speaketh, but heretowith, I shan't uttereth the verbiage "whence " nor "skullduggery". As the mere conjuring of those colloquials does portend a scant tad of pompousness


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> "You can say that..." when the sales person is presented an objection, tend to take these lines with a grain of salt
> A simple " We ain't buying a $40K machine 'till it's been out a year"


Heh, thats exactly what they told me. Except he said 75K.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Bender said:


> Heh, thats exactly what they told me. Except he said 75K.


you can get the gennex tinter for less then 18k, they offer a few different packages to retailers, its not as bad as its rumor to be. And with other products coming out to use that tinter its worth it and its the future of painting...


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## construk (Dec 15, 2008)

general paint has a red based hp 2000 that covers in 2 coats easy like you would never fukkin believe !


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

There is only one tint machine for the Gennex Platform that has a humidifier that was designed specifically for waterborne colorants. All the other machines are the same as used for UTC, the same machines used by all manufacturers for their glycol based tints. The cost of the automatic tint machines, range from $8-28,000 depending on the size, capacity, warranty, and speed of the machine. It is the same investment a retailer would have to make for standard tint machines. These machines that the retailers have to choose from are certified for Waterborne Colorants by Benjamin Moore for accuracy, as the Gennex tints and formulas have been painstakingly created for color accuracy. So far, most of the formulas have been extremely accurate. A retailer can choose not to participate in the Gennex Platform, however as all products are migrated to 0 VOC, waterborne colorants, they will miss an opportunity to sell products that will become the standard for all coatings, and likely include all manufacturers.


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## zerowned (Jul 23, 2008)

I will come right out and admit that I am 100% sure that the store I work for cannot afford the equipment required to run the store. The lady who owns it has just recently purchased it. I got the information, however, from the previous owners, who more than had the capital to invest (though I will say that in our town it probably wouldn't be a smart move, at least not in the next few years).

Crystalline silica is a very scary additive compared to those in other paints. It's easy enough to look up the side effects it can cause. And in my area, for some reason or another, most painters DO NOT use a respirator. I dont do any spraying myself, but thankfully my husband is smart enough to do things properly and provide proper equipment for our employees. (I just found out that the regal series also contains Crystalline silica, up here we don't have this product, just Collection ( which I assume is the equal to Regal in the states?) so most of you may be used to this component already).

I dont think its right to advertise it as a "green" product when it contains a carcinogen.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

zerowned said:


> I dont think its right to advertise it as a "green" product when it contains a carcinogen.


No thats actually alright though. A carcinogen only kills people and not plants thank goodness. So as long as it is good for the environment the humans will repopulate.

Oh, and Crystalline silica or not, paint has never been a dietary supplement and this is still much better than what we've been brought up on. I think their Natura line will address the other issues.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The crystalline silica is pretty universal in paint, so your store should not be using anything other than Mythic and maybe 1-2 other brands to my knowledge.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

this is scary stuff.

i dont want to die because i painted with aura.

i will have to rethink my paint choice.

thanks for the heads up.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

high fibre said:


> this is scary stuff.
> 
> i dont want to die because i painted with aura.
> 
> ...


 
:laughing: You may want to rethink trade/career choice


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

...sigh....

Products containing crystalline silica have to have that warning label because people exposed to it all the time can have serious health issues (silicosis)
I don't want to make light of a health issue, but it's really for miners, cement tile cutters, and other massive dust raising professions that raise lots of silica dust
So...everything with it needs a label (depending on state at this point)

Silica is also used in sandpaper, and abrasive cleaners....like toothpaste
(flour silica is also known to cause silicosis)


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