# Is the Economy hurting you?



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

While business has still been coming in all season, it seems that people are starting to move towards painting a single room or just a couple of rooms rather than their entire interior. Smaller projects seem to be rolling in while the large 15 and 20k jobs are getting fewer and fewer. Anyone else experiencing this?

I got to thinking today and can't help but think this is helping more than hurting. More clients throughout the season means more repeat business. I also have always felt that in the long run, a one day in and out type of job is more profitable than a month long endeavor. Furthermore, a one bedroom repaint takes about 4 hours. I try to schedule two of these jobs on the same day. I am charging for a days labor on both projects and therefore, making two days labor rates for a long days work.

Anyone else feel this way?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

:no:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Not to speak for anyone but myself, but if you have been at this for 10-15 years, you kind of start to anticipate and adapt a bit sooner. 

To answer the OP question: Not so much...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

you can't paint a bedroom in 4 hours! We must have different types of clocks.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> you can't paint a bedroom in 4 hours! We must have different types of clocks.


 
Plain 

he has a bunch of guys who do like a 1/4 of a million a month in garage doors only...put them in a room and they are like sharks smelling blood. "Anything but garage doors, pleaaaaaassssee!!!"


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

A walls only repaint in a typical bedroom is 4 hours for two coats on the walls, no problem assuming there are only a few minor nicks, gouges, and nail holes to fill. Shoot, if dry times are good and you do stuff in the right order, you can even fit in the ceiling on a good day (but that can be tough). Must be MI time.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It's like driving by an accident or looking at the sun. Why the hell to I open Severson or Pinnacle threads?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Pinnacle, I think charging for a one day minimum on a job like that is fine. I have considered doing the same. For me, I have usually been able to fit them in well with another job nearby or something so it is not a huge problem, but if I was getting a lot of one room jobs, the one day price would be a good idea.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

We do the same if we can't squeeze the small room job in, it gets quoted as a full day.


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## Mantis (Aug 4, 2008)

Billed as full day. Yes.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You guys even get upset when I tell you how long a bedroom takes me? Come on, two guys, overhead fan running and one of our fans to help dry time - me and 1 guy start cutting 3/4 of the way through the first cut I pull out big ben to roll the walls. Take a smoke break and repeat. Four hours - no problem. 

My question wasn't regarding time to paint a room. My question was if any of you guys are experiencing the same thing - smaller jobs?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I see no problem with 4 hours to paint a bedroom. From the time you pull up at the curb, move furniture, throw down drops, pull switchplate/outlet covers, pull window treatments, retrieve tools, pour up paint, actually paint the room, and reverse the above steps, 4 hours is very acceptable. It really doesn't matter how long it takes for someone to do something, as long as they are billing/getting paid for all the time.

I am seeing smaller jobs because I actively seek them out. They seem to hold a higher profit margin for me.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I don't have a problem with 4 hrs for a bedroom, depending on the size and how much patching and using Aura I can see it... as for the smoke break, not allow around my jobsite.... too much time wasted on the smoke breaks


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Hey PWG we must of been typing at the same time!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Hey PWG we must of been typing at the same time!


Yep, same time stamp, but it appears I got top billing! :jester:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> Yep, same time stamp, but it appears I got top billing! :jester:


you damn moderators...


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## peoplearemorons (Aug 10, 2008)

its all about GW screwing up the economy nobody has any money to get stuff done....in most cases painting is pretty low on the totem pole as things that need to get done... try picking up side work installing new windows its a energy saver in the long run and thats mainly what people want done these days..even then though people cant really afford that so u wind up doing 2-3 windows a project ..just a thought SCREW BIG OIL RIDE A BIKE lol


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Pinn you bill two guys a full day- $300 each $600 total to paint walls only? Doubt it. You never mentioned trim or ceiling in your thread.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Never mentioned it because I'm not counting trim and ceiling. If I was, I would have mentioned it. As far as what you doubt, who cares? You're running out of New Jersey. How could you possibly know what I am billing - different markets, different price points.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> You guys even get upset when I tell you how long a bedroom takes me? Come on, two guys, overhead fan running and one of our fans to help dry time - me and 1 guy start cutting 3/4 of the way through the first cut I pull out big ben to roll the walls. Take a smoke break and repeat. Four hours - no problem.
> 
> My question wasn't regarding time to paint a room. My question was if any of you guys are experiencing the same thing - smaller jobs?


You guys missed it! He uses an 18 inch roller. (big ben) I tell ya they are the bomb! Twice the area in one swipe!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I like any jobs

I agree though with your question, but how do you bid a 1 room job? Over the phone or do you have to go look at it and write up a price? = at least an hour


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I think you are being silly.
To make 250,000 in sales by painting $600 4 hour bedrooms:

you need to paint 416 bedrooms.
To price them like that, you need to see about 1,249 bedrooms.
Your sales costs are huge, considering the price per unit.
If you are doing the sales yourself, there won't be any painting or smokes.
For 416 projects and just 250,000 the mobilization factor is also huge.
You also need dedicated field management to run such a number of jobs.
Marketing, marketing staff or outsourcing 
and someone picking up the phone, returning calls, scheduling, full time(not you, you are painting/smoking/selling non stop) 
to arrange and service 1,249 leads and a whole bunch of disqualified leads and enquiries.
And in an economy like this, how do you get the sales pipeline flowing
with thousands of people lining up to spend $600 for 4 hours of painting a bedroom?
The above hypotheticals are not far off from reality, 
so stop it now, it won't happen.
If it does let us know how.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George

I agree. Some individuals roll in here making outrageous claims, sometimes backed by an alleged business degree that doesnt seem to follow some pretty basic business concepts. When pressed to back the outrageous claims, they seem to stop posting in that thread. They are not even asked for specifics to verify the outrageous claim, just an explanation. Not surprisingly, there is none. 

Its all good though. If someone rolled through here thinking that there were no paint company owners here who knew more than they did, boy would that be a rude awakening. 

Lets just be witnesses to the rude awakening.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> George
> 
> I agree. Some individuals roll in here making outrageous claims, sometimes backed by an alleged business degree that doesnt seem to follow some pretty basic business concepts. When pressed to back the outrageous claims, they seem to stop posting in that thread. They are not even asked for specifics to verify the outrageous claim, just an explanation. Not surprisingly, there is none.
> 
> ...


Whoever could you be talking about?


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## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Things kinda slowed down somwhat, but I also do trim carpentry, so Im always busy. hell Im gettin where I need help. doing a real nice kitchen redoo, paintin it pretty yellow, new hickory cabinets and such. went an got 2 more jobs just being in that hood. folks still doing things round here, but the big $ jobs are gettin rarer. but I agree the small jobs are bringin more word a mouth jobs. I must be the high guy? cause I aint paintin no bedroom for a days labor, more like 2 an a half days labor.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

First everyone said I couldn't paint a bedroom in 4 hours (I did by myself today). Then everyone assumes I am charging $600 per bedroom because I have a helper with me. Then you assume I am painting only bedrooms all year. I don't get it. Homeguards tells you he makes 1.5 per year, you buy it. I tell you I am making 10% of that and hold on, I must be full of it. None of this had anything to do with the question I asked. I just wanted to know if you guys seem to be getting smaller jobs. It's an easy enough question. All of you guys want to attack the new guy to the room because a week ago I hurt your precious egos. Question my business degree, ok. Still haven't answered the question. Here's my favorite part though - you guys all told me last week it's irresponsible of me to quote prices without seeing the job (on a single garage door which I still don't know what there is to see). Then, you tell me the time frame I have to paint a bedroom and why I can't make a certain amount of money because of the price you came up with in your head. I never said the size of the room, I never said amount of doors or windows, I just said I could paint your typical bedroom in 4 hours (in my experience) and you guys start quoting prices. How irresponsible of you. This whole forum is like a big joke. Someone asks a question, nobody knows the answer, ATTACK!!!

I am starting to wonder if you guys are even painters with a remark like "You can't paint a bedroom in 4 hours." Are you kidding?

My favorite are the ignorant comment about smoke breaks. 1 break in 4 hours, especially considering me and my guys don't eat lunch until after work, is something to squack at? 

By the way, I have 2 secretaries. One answers phones, one cold calls all day long. She arranges interviews with contractors, calls old clients, calls new clients, asks for referrals, etc. I haven't taken a day off in over 6 months - I work Monday through Sunday. How could you guys possibly build a business model based on what you don't know. And why is my income so important to you anyway? Feeling insecure about your 30k job? Start painting quicker. Today my day consisted of 1 bedroom, then going to another client's house and painting 1 garage interior (walls & ceiling) and a garage floor clear coat over an epoxy I laid yesterday. I went to work at 6am. At lunch I stopped home, checked my e-mail, then went and power washed some deck spindles (we're just painting the spindles. not the floor).So, I had the bedroom done by 11, got home, spent a half hour there, went and power washed (another 30 min) then I went back and did the garage. After the first coat, I drove 10 miles to check on my crew who are working on a large exterior. Then I went back and second coated the garage and laid the clear epoxy. Luckily, the homeowner isn't there because I just got home. 6 am to 12:15am. Busy day. Had to stop home twice because I had to talk to a realtor that one of the secretaries called and arranged an estimate. Long day but I easily made over $1000. Multiply that by 365 and see what you get. My number still seem crazy? And why do I get so much work? One, there are a total of three painters in my town. One is known as the local hack job. The other just about matches every estimate I do but has a snaggle tooth and can't present himself. A total of $2000 a month on advertising and constant contact with three local chambers, multiple business expos and BNI groups, etc. Not every day is like today, but I never stop working. That's how I make the money I do........

I may not know everything a 30 year vet does about painting. But, I know about selling, I know about business, and I will out work every single person I ever met. Doubt it? Come out to Michigan. I'll work you under the table. 

Doubt the money I make? Ok. I brought it up once in a post in which someone claimed a 1.5mil income. You guys won't drop it. If your jealous, go ahead and be. If you don't believe it, Ok, you don't have to. All I asked was if you guys are getting smaller jobs lately. YOU turned it into this. Why did I stop posting on this thread today? Because while you idiots were sitting there on calculators trying to figure out how I make twice what you do, I was out busting my butt WORKING. 

I wish I could show you guys all the private messages I received after my "Whats wrong w/ you guys post." I swear it's driving me nuts. It's always the same 5 or 6 of you retards getting into it with me, then 30 guys write me and say they agree with me. I can't understand why no one just comes out with it. Maybe I'm opinionated to an extent of downfall. Honestly though, I gotta tell you, "professional painting forum" is the absolute last phrase I would use to describe the retardation I see day in and day out on this site. I'm not saying everyone. Some of you guys I think are just joining in to join in. But I gotta tell you, some of the things you guys come up with are simply priceless.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Pin

You seem to have 3 things going on here:

1. Persecution complex - everyone is out to get you :shifty:

2. Competitive young guy thing with Homey

3. Habit of making inaccurate statements about business, arguing them to the point of looking silly, then when you see the argument is not going your way, you go start a new thread. 

Here is something I posted a few days ago in a thread in which you had made some inaccurate statements about business. Inaccurate in the sense that they kind of defy generally accepted proper practices. To use a phrase that you use alot: Why won't you just answer the question?

_I hope you have a good bookkeeper and accountant. This approach is pretty much the other extreme from what my professionals advise. Nice to hear that its working for you. How long did you say you have been on your own?_

_If I remember right, you are about 24 years old, worked for your uncle for 10 years and then went on your own. Something here isnt quite adding up. How many years have you been running your business finances this way? You might want to seriously re-evaluate your methods. I know you are a business major and all, but you really should consult a good accountant several times a year. Lots of guys get in trouble during the first few years by making bad assumptions. Not being critical here, just trying to help_.

This, I think, is what you are running into on this forum. You say alot of things that, when you really think about them, just dont add up.

My intent is not to run you down as the new guy, or pick on you as the young guy. Its just, with this kind of information: you must have started with your uncle when you were about 14, and if you worked for him for 10 years then went on your own, at your age now, you cant have been in business for too many years. I wondered how many years of business ownership you have been doing the checkbook accounting thing successfully? It might not be too late to change your ways and get on a better track.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

My average bedroom repaint is somewhere along the lines of 16-20 hrs of labor. How can I focus on your question when you throw in stuff like 4 hr. repaints? Krikes - it takes me 4 hours on the last day of a job to clean up rosen paper, clean dust off floors, move out supplies back into truck, make some last minute touch-ups, and chat with customer and get check. 4 hour repaints is ghetto work in my opinion.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

It takes you 16-20 hours to skim coat nail holes, cut 4 walls a window, a closet, tape wood work, cut it, roll and vacuum afterwards? 

Laying tarps takes me about 15 minutes, skim coating another 15. 1st cut, about an hour and a half, second cut about 45 minutes. Rolling is about 30 min for each coat. I wet sand after the first cut which takes all of about 10 minutes. I'm talking about your typical 12 x 16 bedroom. 16 to 20 hours sounds like a lot. Are you stripping wall paper? Are you dealing with major drywall repair? Not sure exactly how it would possibly take that long. 

By the way, I am almost 26, not 24. I worked for my uncle 9 and a half years (I rounded up) and have been in business about a year and a half. If you don't like my business sense, you don't have to. If running your business a certain way works for you, that's GRRRRRReat! Running my business the way I do has worked for me.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> By the way, I am almost 26, not 24. I worked for my uncle 9 and a half years (I rounded up) and have been in business about a year and a half. If you don't like my business sense, you don't have to. If running your business a certain way works for you, that's GRRRRRReat! Running my business the way I do has worked for me.


Awesome. If it worked for you through your first tax season thats great. My point was, if you have been through just one tax season doing things the way you are doing them, try to keep an open mind that as your business evolves, you will learn alot about the financial side of it and maybe have to make some changes. 

You often dont find out about the mistakes you are making until a couple of years down the road. In spite of the fact that you call the members here idiots, failures and retards, no one here is trying to shoot you down. Believe it or not, people do want to help expand your understanding of your business. You seem to have a good handle on it though, so hopefully people will stop questioning it, and maybe start tapping more into your business experience and expertise. I think we will all learn alot from you.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Pin: Your really hung up on my numbers, what is so hard to believe? I only put a my gross reciepts up because you tried to call me out(something to the effect of 24 year old guy who doesn't have any work). I didn't put it up to give you a complex, but I'll be damned if it hasn't consumed you. 

There are varying degrees of success in contracting. Some guys will make plenty of money for themselves by themselves and that is what they want(they can work when they want, don't have to worry about employees,ect). these people have my respect because they have acheived what they wanted by themselves without any help. Other people like to be hardheaded and try to grow large with lots of employees with lots of problems, with the expectation of a large return. If they achieve their goals they are no more successful than the one man show. Both have achieved there goals of a successful business. Please take a minute and stop comparing your business to others and just build the business that you want. You have nothing to prove to us, afterall it's just the internet.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Isn't this $600 in 3.5 hours??? HHHHMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!


 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,702 
 My Photos 









Aaron/Brian

Here is a real world situation. I get called by my areas top realtor who has a bunch of newly built luxury townhomes for sale and wants to put custom paint in the master bedrooms, stage them, photo shoot them for a magazine, and then hold an open house. There are a bunch of these things, and each one gets a custom Ben Moore color that I will apply over linen white. I give a price per room of $600. No breakdown of materials or labor, just a flat fee per room. I have a very limited window of time between the rooms being staged for "before" photos", and then I do the paint work and they are redecorated for "after" photos and restaged for the open house. I did one today. I knew based on the color and timeframe that it would be to my advantage to use Aura instead of Regal. I have $600 to work with. I pay $48/gallon for Aura, I pay $28/gal for Regal. It took me 3.5 hours to apply 2 coats of Aura to this room. It is 20x20 with a 16 foot wall, two side walls that taper down to an 8' wall. 

I have had several situations like this lately where I give a lump sum for the job, and I know I can make it work, whichever way I go on materials. In this case, I was able to circle the room twice without stopping (by myself) and get the desired result within the timeframe I had. How did I do? I can play the numbers anyway I want to...I used 2 gallons of Aura @ $96 (no Markup), which means I had $504 left for my 3.5 hours labor. Someone, please, analyze my numbers, so I can figure out what happened today.
Attached Thumbnails  http://www.painttalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1472&d=1217981471 http://www.painttalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1473&d=1217981483 http://www.painttalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1474&d=1217981501 http://www.painttalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1475&d=1217981512 

__________________
Scott
Aura Review

_"...I may be the resident a-hole here on PT..."_ - NEPS 
_Last edited by vermontpainter; 08-05-2008 at 08:25 PM. _


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

aaron- I thought the same thing. Painting the room Pin is talking about should not take more than 4 hours. I thought that he was talking about all walls, ceiling and trim...not gonna happen. Just walls.....better happen. If my guys took 16 hours they would be looking for another job.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

4 hrs for walls only is possible15X15 or so. I think its light for ceiling and/or trim.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm not sure why you guys are assuming that he is painting ceiling, walls and trim. I believe it's pretty obvious since he did not mention that. 4 hours tells me walls only! If one of our guys spent much longer then that I would send him for a drug test!!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Oh, by the way yes the economy is starting to slow us down a little. Plus the rainy season seems longer than usual, killin our exteriors


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Isn't this $600 in 3.5 hours??? HHHHMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> __________________
> ...


Yes. And Pin claims to be able to work circles around anyone here, so he should be able to do that room in less than 2. :no:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> Isn't this $600 in 3.5 hours??? HHHHMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Have i seen this in a post before or is it a deja vu?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Aaron hauled it out from another post, evidently to support Pinnacles assertions. I dont think anyone here is arguing that you can paint the walls in a normal to large size bedroom in 4 hours. The pictures of what I did do show that happening.

That was me, one man, one day. As George noted, to create these opportunities day in and day out for a crew of 3-4 would take one heck of a marketing machine and alot of mobilization from day to day. Not impossible though. 

I never questioned Pin's ability to do walls in a room in 4 hours. I was more intrigued by his approach to accounting for profit. I now feel that he knows what he is doing and is confident in the approach he has. I agree, Homey, it will be great if he focuses on building the business he wants to own.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> First everyone said I couldn't paint a bedroom in 4 hours (I did by myself today). Then everyone assumes I am charging $600 per bedroom because I have a helper with me. .


What is it? You did it yourself or you had a helper? I'm confused.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I haven't taken a day off in over 6 months - I work Monday through Sunday. .


How about some sweet music?


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## Alex PCI (Jul 26, 2007)

4hrs is about max for any bedroom up to 15x15 even with trim.
I find it hard to believe that people disagree with this.


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## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Hell man Im so damn confused now I aint able to even remember what the hell we was makin words bout. but,, I aint really all bent on how long it takes to paint anything, I paint "alone". I get paid. then go somewhere else and do it again. and when I feel like it I take time off. I aint makin no mil. but Im always rollin with dead Presidents! thats what matters here. whether its takes me 2 hrs or 4 hrs Im gonna make the 6-7 hundred off the room anyhow, cause thats what I tell them it'll cost. done deal.. cause its a short day job! I love them little


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## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Hey man I forgot. pin, why you use the retard word so much? you ought not be callin folk retarded. (call em stupid or ignorant,) there might be folks here that have a child or blood member that has issues, and that aint being very respectfull of things that are out of a persons hands. and you sure know how to get things rowed up round here! tell me more my brother from the northwoods!


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

crow said:


> Hey man I forgot. pin, why you use the retard word so much? you ought not be callin folk retarded. (call em stupid or ignorant,) there might be folks here that have a child or blood member that has issues, and that aint being very respectfull of things that are out of a persons hands. and you sure know how to get things rowed up round here! tell me more my brother from the northwoods!


Brother Crow, I think a Hex is in order here.:thumbsup:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I understand Pin's frustration. If you look back in this thread, some became fixated on painting a bedroom and got it wrong when he clearly stated what he did in the bedroom. So his question didn't get answered. Then his painting skills get questioned. Yes he is a bit hot headed but damn you boys can be nit picky about things that have nothing to do with the topic.


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## Matt's Painting (May 14, 2007)

*I feel the same way. Agree.*

I'll answer the question. I feel the same way. I'd rather have smaller jobs myself. Get in and out. I love them. I don't see no problem with painting a bedroom in 4 hours or under.

I said the same thing in my 1st post about all the post whores jumping in and stealing the thread and being jerks. It's a pack mentality. The school bullies smell fresh meat. I just figure you can't get away from assholes. Unfortunately, they are everywhere. I seem to run into a few everyday. Whether, it's on the Professional Muscle Website. Where, the post whores do the same thing. They hijack threads, make stupid comments and remarks. Or on a jobsite. The grocery store. Or when I'm playing WoW online. Etc. There's assholes everywhere. I just usually shut my mouth and when I'm working out I visualize ripping their heads offs with my hands. It seems to help. For a moment or two at least. I've just found there's no getting away from it. About, 90+ % of people suck! 

Matt


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Matt's Painting said:


> I'll answer the question. I feel the same way. I'd rather have smaller jobs myself. Get in and out. I love them. I don't see no problem with painting a bedroom in 4 hours or under.
> 
> I said the same thing in my 1st post about all the post whores jumping in and stealing the thread and being jerks. It's a pack mentality. The school bullies smell fresh meat. I just figure you can't get away from assholes. Unfortunately, they are everywhere. I seem to run into a few everyday. Whether, it's on the Professional Muscle Website. Where, the post whores do the same thing. They hijack threads, make stupid comments and remarks. Or on a jobsite. The grocery store. Or when I'm playing WoW online. Etc. There's assholes everywhere. I just usually shut my mouth and *when I'm working out I visualize ripping their heads offs with my hands. It seems to help.* For a moment or two at least. I've just found there's no getting away from it. About, 90+ % of people suck!
> 
> Matt


 
Yikes please seek help:yes::yes:, this is the real world not World of Warcraft get a grip.(figuratively not literally)


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Matt's Painting;36844
the Professional Muscle Website. :blink:
There's assholes everywhere. I just usually shut my mouth and when I'm working out I visualize ripping their heads offs with my hands. About said:


> Good luck with your 10%:thumbsup:


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## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Matt, my brother you just need a couple days in the crows woods, make right by your ways. it could very well change your way a thinkin my brother. you seem to go outta your way to let the good folks here know bout your mucsles an such. we get the point you pump iron. but here on the magic wire it aint gonna mean no more to anybody than your opion. thats what cool bout this place. we be we. thats all. as for your ways bout wantin to take ones air, Ive seen your type, they end up in the cage tryin to convince the rest of population that they are bad a**'*,,like I said couple days in crows woods,,, you be alright my brother.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

crow said:


> Matt, my brother you just need a couple days in the crows woods, make right by your ways. it could very well change your way a thinkin my brother...like I said couple days in crows woods,,, you be alright my brother.


Ok my vote is set for the "Where should we hold the painttalk national convention?" ballot. 

Crow, you are the man.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Ocean City, MD. Off season, rates are low, golf courses if you play, (I don't)

Or Myrtle Beach, SC. Stays warm late, rates are low ion the offseason, and they have good strip clubs. (and golf courses)


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> Ocean City, MD. Off season, rates are low, golf courses if you play, (I don't)
> 
> Or Myrtle Beach, SC. Stays warm late, rates are low ion the offseason, and they have good strip clubs. (and golf courses)


I miss my OC days... was there every summer in my late teens and early 20's... good times...


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> While business has still been coming in all season, it seems that people are starting to move towards painting a single room or just a couple of rooms rather than their entire interior. Smaller projects seem to be rolling in while the large 15 and 20k jobs are getting fewer and fewer. Anyone else experiencing this?
> 
> I got to thinking today and can't help but think this is helping more than hurting. More clients throughout the season means more repeat business. I also have always felt that in the long run, a one day in and out type of job is more profitable than a month long endeavor. Furthermore, a one bedroom repaint takes about 4 hours. I try to schedule two of these jobs on the same day. I am charging for a days labor on both projects and therefore, making two days labor rates for a long days work.
> 
> Anyone else feel this way?


 
that is great you have been doing such large projects, what type of work do you get 15,000 for??

I thought I read you only keep two guys, how many weeks does it take you and your two guys to knock out these 15,000 jobs

Here my avg job is less then $5,000. our number of leads were at a all time low for july. Aug leads are still down, but closing rates are really high due to repeat and referall clients.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

After the election things will improve.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Bender said:


> After the election things will improve.


 
very good point, that does have a larger effect than we realize


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

It might get better after the election but I don't think it will go up fast. We still have a long haul ahead of us.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Things are not going to change after the election.... All of this stuff happening now happens in cycles... ride the wave or get out of the water...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Bender said:


> After the election things will improve.


Why? How?


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

some people(aware or not) will curtail large purchases when they are unsure of where the country is headed.(older people especially). After the election, no matter how it turns out they will return to their old spending habits. talk to some of the guys that have been through a few cycles they can vouch for this strange trend.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We are busy as ****e. I want to hire CAPainter to come and work for me.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> some people(aware or not) will curtail large purchases when they are unsure of where the country is headed.(older people especially). After the election, no matter how it turns out they will return to their old spending habits. talk to some of the guys that have been through a few cycles they can vouch for this strange trend.


It affects us all. My wife and I pre-purchased a tank of heating oil. We just bought 3 cord of firewood. We are consumers. We are also business owners. Now more than ever...market and differentiate. Its not too hard to stand out in a sea of lowball painters. We all complain about it, get out there and sell your services. Maybe the average job isnt $3000 anymore. If its $1500, get twice as many. MARKET.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hmm......

I agree that people will start spending more to an extent. However, I doubt that we'll be right back on track once the election is over. Iraq is still a lingering dilemma in the US along with fuel prices which is affecting everything right now including (not sure if you guys noticed) material pricing.

The problem with electing McCain, everyone will be upset that we're going to be staying in Iraq. The problem with Obama is that all the "old-timers" that used to spend more heavily because of a strong economy are going to be worried about an "inexperienced" politician. I'm not a racist in any way at all so don't take this wrong - but a lot of old-timers may also be concerned about Obama's race. More spending, I definitely see that happening. Economy - I think we are nearing the bottom (no, I don't think we are there yet) but we may still have a few years left. A bounce back is inevitable. It's just a matter of when.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Hmm......
> 
> I agree that people will start spending more to an extent. However, I doubt that we'll be right back on track once the election is over. Iraq is still a lingering dilemma in the US along with fuel prices which is affecting everything right now including (not sure if you guys noticed) material pricing.
> 
> The problem with electing McCain, everyone will be upset that we're going to be staying in Iraq. The problem with Obama is that all the "old-timers" that used to spend more heavily because of a strong economy are going to be worried about an "inexperienced" politician. I'm not a racist in any way at all so don't take this wrong - but a lot of old-timers may also be concerned about Obama's race. More spending, I definitely see that happening. Economy - I think we are nearing the bottom (no, I don't think we are there yet) but we may still have a few years left. A bounce back is inevitable. It's just a matter of when.


Don't watch the news. Go rent Wag the Dog. Just run your business. Go sell.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Don't watch the news. Go rent Wag the Dog. Just run your business. Go sell.


 
We increased our advertising and are working on offering financing options.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Pin would find a reason to disagree with me if i said the sky was blue, he'd say, "its white over there" and tell me i'm wrong when i say thats a cloud.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I am also considering financing programs. Any of you guys offer this? I am not sure whether to personally back the loans or get in with someone like HSBC or some other bank. I think a stringent credit check and references will be vital


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I agreed that there will be a bounce back. I am over the whole thing from a week ago brother, let's talk paint - not money, not politics.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I am also considering financing programs. Any of you guys offer this? I am not sure whether to personally back the loans or get in with someone like HSBC or some other bank. I think a stringent credit check and references will be vital


I just talked to a guy who specializes in financing homeowners who want to do home improvements. He said that would include painting. Was supposed to meet him tomorrow, but had to put him off to get a job done.

Also working on accepting credit cards, anything that will give customers a choice and make us different from the rest of the pack.


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## Bushdude (Apr 17, 2007)

Back in the day, election years were almost always good years. Whatever party was in power at the time would let the greenbacks flow. Today, after 8 years of this admin. there is nothing left to spend. Inflation is skyrocketing, manufacturing has all gone to China, were in a war thats costing 2 trillion plus, oil is at record prices, houses can't be given, etc. etc. etc. It will take years to turn things around, if that is still possible to do. Unless and untill corporate America and lobbyists are thrown out the mix, this country will be going to hell in a handbasket.


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## Alex PCI (Jul 26, 2007)

If you read articles from the 30's, 40's or 50's they were saying the same thing, and this country has yet to go to hell in a handbasket. 
negative thoughts are whats wrong with are economy, not the economy itself


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Alex PCI said:


> negative thoughts are whats wrong with are economy, not the economy itself


:yes:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Bushdude said:


> Back in the day, election years were almost always good years. Whatever party was in power at the time would let the greenbacks flow. Today, after 8 years of this admin. there is nothing left to spend. Inflation is skyrocketing, manufacturing has all gone to China, were in a war thats costing 2 trillion plus, oil is at record prices, houses can't be given, etc. etc. etc. It will take years to turn things around, if that is still possible to do. Unless and untill corporate America and lobbyists are thrown out the mix, this country will be going to hell in a handbasket.


I not a fan of either party, but the truth be told there's been a new sheriff in town for some time. The house and senate set the budget (remember high school civics class?) the president just signs or vetoes it. That said, there really is not that big a difference between the two. GOP and DEM both spend too much money, and neither is doing anything to stop the downward slide of the dollars value.

If you want real change, you need a whole new party.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

For God's sake, you have to adapt your business to current spending habits. You dont have to study the economy to follow your sales trends. Figure out what your most profitable jobs are this year and market to them more intensively. Oh, wait, that would require knowing your numbers, which is a touchy subject around here. We all just want things to be the way they were when it was easy to sell at a good price and everyone had plenty of work. Sometimes, its not that simple. Everyone here should be focusing on their business, and using the opportunity that this forum provides to pool resources and do so. Instead, we talk about painters whites and what size brush is best and disparage the guys who are trying to share ideas about business, marketing and sales. This is a reflection of the state of our trade. Right here.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Alex PCI said:


> If you read articles from the 30's, 40's or 50's they were saying the same thing, and this country has yet to go to hell in a handbasket.
> negative thoughts are whats wrong with are economy, not the economy itself


:yes::yes:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> For God's sake, you have to adapt your business to current spending habits. You dont have to study the economy to follow your sales trends. Figure out what your most profitable jobs are this year and market to them more intensively. Oh, wait, that would require knowing your numbers, which is a touchy subject around here. We all just want things to be the way they were when it was easy to sell at a good price and everyone had plenty of work. Sometimes, its not that simple. Everyone here should be focusing on their business, and using the opportunity that this forum provides to pool resources and do so. I*nstead, we talk about painters whites and what size brush is best and disparage the guys who are trying to share ideas about business, marketing and sales. This is a reflection of the state of our trade. Right here.*




if i hadn't read the name I would have thought Brian had posted that. Very True words, VP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> [/b]
> 
> if i hadn't read the name I would have thought Brian had posted that. Very True words, VP


Hey man, Brian has said it until he is blue in the face and God bless him for continuing to say it...most businesses fail. Focus on whats important. Its a message that we need to hear these days. Instead we fall into our comfort zone of apparell and brushes. It all makes sense.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Hey man, Brian has said it until he is blue in the face and God bless him for continuing to say it...most businesses fail. Focus on whats important. Its a message that we need to hear these days. Instead we fall into our comfort zone of apparell and brushes. It all makes sense.


 
I know, there are only a few guys here who seem to focus on the important stuff.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> I know, there are only a few guys here who seem to focus on the important stuff.


And imagine that, those guys get crap for having little patience with the sev factor (no offense sev, not referring to you personally, more the phenomenon you have brought to the site...we will emerge a stronger painttalk as a result, and you will be here to enjoy it.)


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> I know, there are only a few guys here who seem to focus on the important stuff.


One of the great things about this site is being reminded of and learning what is important. I have lot's of fun and aggravation here, but am here mainly to learn and grow.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok VP, me and you have disagreed on a few subjects here and there. I don't disagree with you on the fact that we should discuss marketing and sales. I think that everyone can help each other to determine some of the marketing ideas and strategies that work. On the other hand, this forum is also about materials and products. Share both with each other. You can't knock someone for talking about brushes, and they shouldn't knock you for talking about business.

Regarding business. I don't know if anyone disagreed with the fact you should know your numbers, keep records, test the market and see what works. I, personally, disagreed with you when you said that I should run my business a certain way. A basic business outline is one thing. But, Bill Gates didn't become a billionaire because he watched what everyone else did and copy it. Everyone needs to adapt to what works for them. If I think of my profit as essentially my salary, am I wrong? I think it's just a point of view. A perspective. It's a way that helps me keep a grasp on how much my company is making because at the end of the day, whatever is in the account (business or personal) is mine. If I cash out, fold my cards, etc, I am not leaving my money in the business account, I am taking it. This isn't the wrong way to view things, it's just a different way. Different from yours, different from homeguards, different from who ever elses point of view. How I run my company and how you run yours are on two sides of the spectrum. Opposite sides. But that doesn't make either of them wrong - Just different.

The way my mind works, if I looked at my salary and my companies profit as separate entities, I wouldn't be as worried as about our profit as I am my salary. That would be the wrong way to run my company. Semantics, yes. But I have to keep my own perspective to stay sane, rational, and most importantly, PROFITABLE.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I have to keep my own perspective to stay sane, rational, and most importantly, PROFITABLE.


But, if you take all that is left over for your salary, then your business doesn't show any profit. Because there is none. I was taught that the owner's salary is part of the company's overhead, and what was left over after all overhead and expenses were paid was profit. So, if there is nothing left over, then there is no profit. 

It appears to me that we could both be seen as being 'right'. You use the term profit in the economists definition, and I use it in the accounting definition.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I am also considering financing programs. Any of you guys offer this? I am not sure whether to personally back the loans or get in with someone like HSBC or some other bank. I think a stringent credit check and references will be vital


Get a wireless credit card machine and let the HO extend their own credit!


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

This goes back to another post. And I do pay myself x amount of dollars every month. Call it a salary if you will. And yes, all the deductions come out. and no VP, I never claimed a quarter mil a month - not even a year. Feel free to check my posts. At the end of the year, if I have a large amount left over in the business account, I am not going to leave everything in that account. I'll pay myself an end of year bonus to take SOME of the money out. I am not talking about removing every cent from my commercial account. I am just saying that if I have 70k in the business account at the end of the year, I am going to pay myself about half of it. Two reasons, one, I can invest in my 401k program, two, my income tax is less than my corporate income tax. As a corp, I get taxed twice. No, I don't do my own books by the way, my wife is a CPA


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I accept credit cards through quickbooks. It works pretty well but I think and in-house financing program would pay MUCH better. The 3% fee you are charged per cc charge is eliminated. The monthly service fee ($30) is eliminated. Also, you could charge interest. Guidelines would have to be strict but at 10% of a 7500 job is a nice amount to make over, let's say a 24 month period. Then add up 10, 15, 20, 25 of those. It is profitable. Just a matter of the risk.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

and cashflow, how would you pay your helpers without cash


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

That's where my own personal backing comes in. This could work well if you only offer it to a few choice customers to begin with. If you just said one day that you'll finance all your customer's and then you stop making money for months on end, it would run the well dry. Start slow, establish hundreds in payments coming in every month, then thousands, then hopefully, tens of thousands. In theory, it would be the best possible way to run a company. 8-10% more money per job without raising labor rates. Makes sense. It would simply take some smarts and a little luck regarding payment.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I accept credit cards through quickbooks. It works pretty well but I think and in-house financing program would pay MUCH better. The 3% fee you are charged per cc charge is eliminated. The monthly service fee ($30) is eliminated. Also, you could charge interest. Guidelines would have to be strict but at 10% of a 7500 job is a nice amount to make over, let's say a 24 month period. Then add up 10, 15, 20, 25 of those. It is profitable. Just a matter of the risk.


Try collecting ...not easy. Ever work for a builder? Any day of the week, every day of the year I am owed at least $40k in completed work. Lots of sleepless nights and I know I'm getting paid. I cant imagine trying to collect monthly for 12,18 or 24 months on a HO. If they have the credit let a CC company do all the dirty work. Too much risk. You'll need a leg breaker.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I will say this, there are only a few clients that have asked me about financing options. I tell them cc's are accepted and the question is squashed. By advertising financing, you open yourself up to a different clientele. That being said, with a proper credit check, I wouldn't worry. Someone with a 720 credit score isn't going to screw it up over a $100 painting bill. I feel like the only people that I would have interested in my area are the real scummies though. People like using their cc's for miles.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Around here the builders aren't so bad. I work for one frequently that pays very quickly (15 days tops). The problem is the cottage care guys. These guys hire you to paint a lakehouse, then don't pay until you call, email, etc 30 + times. I did a house over 90 days ago I have yet to be paid on. I sent them a notice that a $250 late fee would be applied if payment wasn't recieved in 7 days, they called yelling and saying I need to keep better contact with them. HA


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Im not saying builders in general are bad but when you have alot of money out on materials, overhead and payroll you have entered a different level of business stress. Financing directly for HO's smells like a recipe for disaster. I find it hard to believe that a HO with a 720 would want to finance with you directly. 

It's like Rent-A-Center for painting. I bet you'll get a good response from low-income households.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I explained a construction lien was next


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

That's probably accurate (the rent a center comment),


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I find it hard to believe that a HO with a 720 would want to finance with you directly.



Thats my thought also someone with a 720 score is more than likely gonna pay for the service out right or put it on a low interest cc they all ready have and pay it off in 30 or 60 days.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Let's be clear though, just because your credit score is good doesn't mean that you have the funds to pay for a 5 or 10k bill. It just means you pay your bills. I think that the clients you would get would be limited, but not non-existant. In the end though, it may not be worth having to filter through 50 low-income hos to find the one 720


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Let's be clear though, just because your credit score is good doesn't mean that you have the funds to pay for a 5 or 10k bill. It just means you pay your bills. I think that the clients you would get would be limited, but not non-existant. In the end though, it may not be worth having to filter through 50 low-income hos to find the one 720


They may not have the funds ready to pay on a instance but with a score like that you should a low interest cc or Heloc ready to use... Not sure your going to be able to offer that good of a rate... And if you do offer a really low rate it is not worth doing... Your not going to make much money...

Be a painter.. not a banker...


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> That being said, with a proper credit check, I wouldn't worry.


I would:yes:
Ever hear of IndyMac?


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