# You MUST read this!



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Below is a letter of requirements I received from a "potential customer" during an estimate today. Have you ever come across one of this? Any thoughts? 

Project
1. Paint 4 rooms with agreed upon quality paint and color 
2. All walls and windows to be prepared before painting with quality materials 3. Surfaces not to be painted need to be taped to avoid any sloppy/messy appearances 
4. Ceiling cracks need to be Spackled 
5. 750 square feet entire house 
5. Two floors with stairwell to be painted- cathedral ceiling with sky light. 
7. Wooden beams NOT to be painted and must be protected from drips 
8. Some windows need to be painted. These will be identified 
9. Estimated costs and time to completion required beforehand 
10. lf time to complete is inaccurate, write out remedies here in advance 
11. lf city permit required, contractor to obtain 
12. Other:

Requirements
1. References from 3 recent clients 
2. Attention to detail critical. Drop clothes must be used, any spills cleaned up immediately with proper cleaners 
3. Courteous workers and consideration to neighbors 
4. No criminal and/or child molestation records of persons to be working 
5. Names and addresses of persons to be on the job by day of work 
6. Proper supervision of whole project. Name of supervisors 
7. Proper insurance coverage for employees and property 
8. Ladders and staging to be up to code and safe 
9. Name of paint used and batch number provided to owner for future touch ups 
10. No dirty workers shoes allowed on white carpets 
11. No smoking by anyone in house 
12. Smokers need to be sure to change their clothing OUTSIDE to avoid smoke contamination smells in house 
13. Proper clean up mandatory 
14. Final payment after inspection of completed job 
15. Consideration of lost heat - do not keep windows open 
16. Doors are not to be propped open which potentially allows mice and/or chipmunks entrance 
17. Cooking facilities not allowed 
18. Use of refrigerator not allowed 
19. Proper use of toilet 
20. Showering not allowed 
21' Other


Thanks,

Sal


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

As weird as it is that the customer put this in writing, it really isn't more than I would expect from a contractor that I hire.


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Amazing!


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Wow, that guy sounds like he had a Bad experience with a painting contractor! He's trying to head every potential problem off at the pass. 

"Proper" use of toilets lol

I don't see anything unreasonable except maybe keeping the windows closed. Explain the need for ventilation. 

It could be a red flag for a pita customer.. But perhaps not. I don't think I would make that judgment myself based solely on that document.


----------



## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

Yep 1 time in 34 years of business. 3 page letter of telling me how to prep & paint a garage floor. Was told 3 bidders & no franchisees allowed. He called & said I was high bidder & he gave it to the low man who owned a local painting franchise:thumbup: 
I didn't tell him about the owner being a franchisee I was just glad I didn't get the job.
if I were you I would bid it HIGH & then refigure it higher, good luck.
The requirements #12 is


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

By my count, I see 21 red flags here. The last ten or so are pretty amazing and make me wonder what happened the last time the client had some painting done. I'm surprised they didn't list "no sleeping in the beds".

This reads of some serious OCD.

If it were a matter of doing this to put food on the table or fighting the dog for her Alpo...no, I don't think even then.


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

i agree with everything but #16 ...

16. Doors are not to be propped open which potentially allows mice and/or chipmunks entrance

no chipmunks is a deal breaker :whistling2:

whats next no kangaroos ... help me out here Ben


----------



## Professional Painter (Mar 15, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> .....It could be a red flag for a pita customer.. But perhaps not. I don't think I would make that judgment myself based solely on that document.


Bid high. _Really_ high.

Professional Painter


----------



## DonMcAnallyPainting (Jan 31, 2012)

Crazy ..... I believe I would skip this one ::::


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Do not walk. RUNNNN


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

epretot said:


> As weird as it is that the customer put this in writing, it really isn't more than I would expect from a contractor that I hire.


It's the fact that the client put it in writing that is the real red flag. You're right about most of the details, although I'm not giving them the addresses of my employees. 

Would the client provide more information about # 19?


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

^ Yep. Even though the stated "requirements" in themselves may not be anything most of us wouldn't already do, the fact that he feels the need to write them down and present them would cause me to say we aren't a good fit.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Man you must of made one hell of a first impression lol


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> Man you must of made one hell of a first impression lol


Lmao... :yes:


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Nothing too unreasonable but I'd still run like hell. :yes:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It's the "others" that would really concern me.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm guessing the HO is a freshly graduated engineer whose politically connected father has lined up a mid-level administrative position for him with the EPA.


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Ya too many ifs there. Reminds me of the lady I worked for who called the cops on me for being an hour late on a Saturday. She was also not a big chipmunk fan.


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

figure out the price, then triple it.


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I had a customer tell me I had to purchase new drops and brushes for her job.

Another one said I wasn't allowed to sand anything because she hates dust.

Some people are just plain crazy.


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Proper use of toilet. What the hell does that mean? Dont pee on the edges?


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Where is CDPainting? I think i am going to refer this customer to him.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> It's the fact that the client put it in writing that is the real red flag. You're right about most of the details, although I'm not giving them the addresses of my employees. Would the client provide more information about # 19?


One of these guys on the site already had jammed a wizz in some dudes toilet. He had no idea where that wizz came from but there it was on the end of the plumber's snake.

Must've been left over from the civil war and was just a coincidence that the house just got painted the day before, and the toilet jammed up and that wizz got Jared lose after all them years sitting in that pipe......

P--lease.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Without knowing the full story of the project/home owner, it's hard to say exactly how I would react. I would either run, or be prepared for a challenge that, if accepted, would be very profitable. Personally, I'm usually up for a good challenge if $$$$ are attached.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Sal,
I'd take the opportunity to use that info and craft a blog post for your site addressing some of those concerns. Most customers are not comfortable, or even know, to ask some of those things.


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

RCP said:


> Sal,
> I'd take the opportunity to use that info and craft a blog post for your site addressing some of those concerns. Most customers are not comfortable, or even know, to ask some of those things.


Very good point ... letting ho know this BEFORE shows that your a professional company


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Boco said:


> Proper use of toilet. What the hell does that mean? Dont pee on the edges?


don't poop and leave a skid mark in the bowl.


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I am pretty sure you can get the job done but it will a pain in the rear. I have done work for some anal people and this to me seams like a bit of a control freak with a touch of OCD. Anyways bid high but just make sure to allow for prep and clean up time daily. Mask everything, drop cloth everthing. Do the obvious hire non smokers and bring a change of shoes to work. i would actually go out and buy all new drops (on there dime) and then make sure everyone has new whites and shirts. Anyways appearances do help but let your work speak for itself.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

epretot said:


> I had a customer tell me I had to purchase new drops and brushes for her job.
> 
> Another one said I wasn't allowed to sand anything because she hates dust.
> 
> Some people are just plain crazy.


After all the discussion, there's the answer right there.:yes:


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

The "no ventilation" clause would be the only real deal-breaker for me.


----------



## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Is leaving a upper decker o k?


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't know, I'm taking a different view.

This person has obviously had a VERY bad experience with previous contractors, there's NO WAY a first timer could imagine all these things - unless there's a new reality show we haven't heard about.

This actually could be a cake walk. This is SOP for most here, and this person will pay premium for it.

the first couple of days may be a little nerve wracking for HIM/HER. But we all have the natural charm and sincerity to easily put this person at ease. 

Yah, I say HIT it, hit it hard.


----------



## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Kind of what I would expect to see working for a PM or someone who works as a Purchaser.


----------



## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I bet Sal has used college painters in the past. I only have a problem with Requirement #1. The last thing in the world I would want is to have this guy calling my previous customers.


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

*Education is key!*



RCP said:


> Sal,
> I'd take the opportunity to use that info and craft a blog post for your site addressing some of those concerns. Most customers are not comfortable, or even know, to ask some of those things.


Hi Chris,

This is exactly what I thought when this homeowner handled me her requirements list. 
I thought this would be a great opportunity to educate some homeowners who only care about the bottom line. This is a perfect example of "you get what you pay for".
It is obvious to me that this lady has had a REALLY bad experience in the past. Although she has some unmeetable requirements (like requesting the addresses of my employees), most of the items on her list are just expected common sense when you hire a professional from an established business. 
Do you really think that the Maytag repair man/woman is going to take a shower when he comes to fix your dishwasher? Or that he/she is not educated enough to know how to "properly use the toilet? Come on, really? I don't know about you all, but I find that insulting to professionals like us.
Back to my point...Some homeowner need to understand that hiring the cheapest painter can be expensive and cause a lot of unnecessary stress. The "bottom line" is, if she had hired a true professional in the past, she wouldn't have to waste her time putting this requirement list together.:thumbsup:


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

epretot;480228 said:


> I had a customer tell me I had to purchase new drops and brushes for her job.
> 
> Another one said I wasn't allowed to sand anything because she hates dust.
> 
> Some people are just plain crazy.


We had this and I line itemized it in the estimate. She then asked me why I was charging her for new drop cloths, I told here we have interior drops and exterior drops, our interior drops are interior use only. If you want me to buy new ones your going to have to pay. She then said if I pay for them I am keeping them, I sid that's fine. Needless to say we didn't get that one.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Amazing Painting said:


> Where is CDPainting? I think i am going to refer this customer to him.


LOL. Give them my number I already know what my price will be. Very Very expensive.

Is this job in Amesbury? I'm trying to think where it could be.

I find customers like this a great challenge. I like a great challenge every so often.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Carl said:


> I bet Sal has used college painters in the past. I only have a problem with Requirement #1. The last thing in the world I would want is to have this guy calling my previous customers.


When emailing my estimates I always provide a list of references. I have my best at the top. I also submit an INS cert. All done before even landing the job. To me this is a must.

Most of our customers have and will say we just did the work there and not give the potential customer the real date we did the job on.


----------



## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Wow, that guy sounds like he had a Bad experience with a painting contractor! He's trying to head every potential problem off at the pass.
> 
> "Proper" use of toilets lol
> 
> ...


 Sometimes I need ventilation to properly use the toilet. I would pass.


----------



## DONZI (Dec 23, 2013)

When potential customers ask me for references I say sure I can, but are you going to give me your bankers name and account number so I know you have money to pay me? That ends that conversation , and I tell them, Im trusting your going to pay me, so you trust me that ill do a good job!


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> LOL. Give them my number I already know what my price will be. Very Very expensive.
> 
> Is this job in Amesbury? I'm trying to think where it could be.
> 
> I find customers like this a great challenge. I like a great challenge every so often.


The house is in Newburyport. A short drive for you! I forgot to mention that there are 6 doors that will need to be repaired and brought back to it's original condition.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Amazing Painting said:


> The house is in Newburyport. A short drive for you! I forgot to mention that there are 6 doors that will need to be repaired and brought back to it's original condition.


We are getting good at these types of repairs. Lots of practice this winter. If your going to pass on this one you can give them our name. PM me for my number.


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> We are getting good at these types of repairs. Lots of practice this winter. If your going to pass on this one you can give them our name. PM me for my number.


I already sent her a quote last night. All jokes aside, this is a detailed project with tons of repairs needed throughout the house. Needless to say that it was priced accordingly. 
I do have a multi-family exterior project in Amesbury that I will have to pass due to the condition of the house. I can give you the information for that one if you want?


----------



## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

How about making a list of silly requirements to give her?

I bet the people here at PT would be happy to help you with that. Here, I'll start...

1. Phone numbers of all neighbors supplied (in case of non/late payment)
2. Smoking painters will be allowed to change clothing in front yard
3. Doors will be propped open. "No mice or chipmunks allowed" signs will be posted
4. Toilet seat(s) will be left UP


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Amazing Painting said:


> I already sent her a quote last night. All jokes aside, this is a detailed project with tons of repairs needed throughout the house. Needless to say that it was priced accordingly.
> I do have a multi-family exterior project in Amesbury that I will have to pass due to the condition of the house. I can give you the information for that one if you want?


Pm me the info, we will at least take a look.

Hopefully you get that interior and the HO turns out to be a nice easy going person who just had a difficult time with a contractor in the past.


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> I don't know, I'm taking a different view.
> 
> This person has obviously had a VERY bad experience with previous contractors, there's NO WAY a first timer could imagine all these things - unless there's a new reality show we haven't heard about.
> 
> ...


That's kind of what I thought. I have had many "red flag" customers that ended up being great. It is nice knowing their expectation (exactly) ahead of time.

I'm super charming though.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> How about making a list of silly requirements to give her?
> 
> I bet the people here at PT would be happy to help you with that. Here, I'll start...
> 
> ...


5. No members of customer's family, or any friends, with criminal or sex offender records to be in house while workers are there. This especially means no females ever convicted of being raging nymphomaniacs.

6. All rooms to be worked in to have current building code compliant statement from licensed inspector. All rooms to be deemed "safe". This includes, but is not limited to, safety gates in each doorway and caps on all electrical outlets.

7. Food for breaks and lunch to be provided daily (no burritos or sour kraut since windows will not be able to be opened).


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

steve richards said:


> how about making a list of silly requirements to give her?
> 
> I bet the people here at pt would be happy to help you with that. Here, i'll start...
> 
> ...





''chipmunk free zone''


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> How about making a list of silly requirements to give her?
> 
> I bet the people here at PT would be happy to help you with that. Here, I'll start...
> 
> ...


LOL I loved it!:thumbup:


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

RH said:


> 5. No members of customer's family, or any friends, with criminal or sex offender records to be in house while workers are there. This especially means no females ever convicted of being raging nymphomaniacs.
> 
> 6. All rooms to be worked in to have current building code compliant statement from licensed inspector. All rooms to be deemed "safe". This includes, but is not limited to, safety gates in each doorway and caps on all electrical outlets.
> 
> 7. Food for breaks and lunch to be provided daily (no burritos or sour kraut since windows will not be able to be opened).


Nice!


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

There is a fine line between a fastidious client with very high standards and a nut job. For a long time, we've focused on the former and tried to avoid the latter...not always successfully. Even though nearly all of the requirements are SOP, they reflect such an undercurrent of deep mistrust that I'd pass on this one.

Not to mention #15. She wants you to jump through all these other hoops, but she's worried about paying for heat loss through opened windows?? Crazy AND cheap? There's a winning combination.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> There is a fine line between a fastidious client with very high standards and a nut job. For a long time, we've focused on the former and tried to avoid the latter...not always successfully. Even though nearly all of the requirements are SOP, they reflect such an undercurrent of deep mistrust that I'd pass on this one. Not to mention #15. She wants you to jump through all these other hoops, but she's worried about paying for heat loss through opened windows?? Crazy AND cheap? There's a winning combination.


At least she's putting it all out there before the bidding process. The worst are the people who you would least expect are going to be a problem, then end up totally unreasonable when it's time to cut the final check.


----------



## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

19.Proper use of toilet


We had a client that required us to polish the stainless steel toilet seat after each use to maintain the shine.........Proper? or Crazy?


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> At least she's putting it all out there before the bidding process. The worst are the people who you would least expect are going to be a problem, then end up totally unreasonable when it's time to cut the final check.


Absolutely! I'm a lot happier when potential clients are upfront about their expectations. The nightmarish ones are those who talk about "just a quick coat of paint" in the beginning, but then bring out the post-its and the 500 W Halogen lamp when it's time to pay the bill.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Not to mention #15. She wants you to jump through all these other hoops, but she's worried about paying for heat loss through opened windows?? Crazy AND cheap? There's a winning combination.


I know many folks who will spend thousands to conserve non-renewable, polluting energy. 

Although there's a fair chance this person is totally nuts, it's also possible she's a dyed in the wool CONSERVEative Yankee who just hates being wasteful.

I'd have to meet her before I rubber stamped her as anything.


----------



## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> When emailing my estimates I always provide a list of references. I have my best at the top. I also submit an INS cert. All done before even landing the job. To me this is a must.
> 
> Most of our customers have and will say we just did the work there and not give the potential customer the real date we did the job on.


In 12 years of being self employed I have had 2 ask me for references. To me, this is not a must at all. Of course, I work off 100 percent referrals so I guess the person who referred me has already told the next potential customer how great I am.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> I know many folks who will spend thousands to conserve non-renewable, polluting energy.
> 
> Although there's a fair chance this person is totally nuts, it's also possible she's a dyed in the wool CONSERVEative Yankee who just hates being wasteful.
> 
> I'd have to meet her before I rubber stamped her as anything.


Bill, you're right that there are other possibilities, but that doesn't seem like the way to bet.

That's brings up another point: the regional differences between customers. It seems like most of our difficult clients have fallen into one of several groups. Geographically, the most troublesome group is those people who moved here from the East, more specifically the Northeast. 

It may be the water, too much time on the LIE or the SE Distressway, or their memories of what you guys did from them on previous projects, but my guess is it's the last one. As a group, they are by far the most mistrusting people that we've worked with. They nearly all want to make sure that they're able to watch us constantly; some will even lock the door when we go out to get something from the truck, so we have to ring the bell for them to let us back in. What did you guys do to them??

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here on PT. Your names haven't come up when I've talked to the clients, with one notable exception, and you know who you are.

Obviously, this is a broad generalization, but it's been so common in our experience as to become unremarkable. It's another reason I'm glad the family left there and moved to the Northwest in the 1700's.


----------



## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

8. Dogs bathed before painting begins.
9. Litter box emptied before work begins (Actually if you could put that thing in the garage, that would be great!)
10. Boogars removed from walls.
11. Urine removed from walls around toilet and floors behind toilet where your cleaning lady never touches.
12. 3 pounds of dustballs removed from behind fridge.
13. 12 years of accumulated grease removed from cabinets and walls above stove.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough,

in my (limited) travels, I have concluded it is toughest and takes the longest to gain REAL trust from us Yankees, but once you do, it's forever.

Some other places (not naming) trust and friendship APPEARS to be immediately forthcoming, but it is shallow and easily broken.

Still other places it's a total facade as they stab you in the back as soon as you turn

And still other places, trust and friendship is as easy as pouring a glass of water. 

Yes, we are a hard lot to please, but once you do, loyalty is unwavering.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Gough,
> 
> in my (limited) travels, I have concluded it is toughest and takes the longest to gain REAL trust from us Yankees, but once you do, it's forever.
> 
> ...


Jeez, at my age, I don't have that kind of time. I don't even buy green bananas.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Carl said:


> In 12 years of being self employed I have had 2 ask me for references. To me, this is not a must at all. Of course, I work off 100 percent referrals so I guess the person who referred me has already told the next potential customer how great I am.


We work off referrals as well and have still been asked to provide some more. Even with a referral some people still get more than one estimate for large expensive jobs. We have only been asked 3 times for additional referrals but I still provide them any ways.


----------



## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

What surprises me is how many total strangers 100% trust us. Never meet face to face and they leave a key and full run of the house.
I also find the higher the income of the customer the more trusting they are.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Jeez, at my age, I don't have that kind of time. I don't even buy green bananas.


you think you're old NOW? Just wait nine days.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gough said:


> Jeez, at my age, I don't have that kind of time. I don't even buy green bananas.


Lmao ----Jeez, at my age, I don't have that kind of time. I don't even buy green bananas.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> We work off referrals as well and have still been asked to provide some more. Even with a referral some people still get more than one estimate for large expensive jobs. We have only been asked 3 times for additional referrals but I still provide them any ways.


The last three referrals I quoted I lost. If my price is not in line with what the HO thinks it should be they will get another referral or cold call another contactor. Thers no sure thing in this economy I don't care if your Picasso . I educate the HO I have tons of references sometimes its not enough they looking for a Cadillac job with a moped budget.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Did she use red font in the letter she wrote for you? 

One thing I've learned is red font=red flag. No matter what the writing spells.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> The last three referrals I quoted I lost. If my price is not in line with what the HO thinks it should be they will get another referral or cold call another contactor. Thers no sure thing in this economy I don't care if your Picasso . I educate the HO I have tons of references sometimes its not enough they looking for a Cadillac job with a moped budget.


The 3 I was asked to give all our prices were very close according to the HO's.


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> When emailing my estimates I always provide a list of references. I have my best at the top. I also submit an INS cert. All done before even landing the job. To me this is a must.
> 
> Most of our customers have and will say we just did the work there and not give the potential customer the real date we did the job on.


 ya the references on estimate is a good idea. I normally use my GCs for references. Most of my highend clients dont want to be bothered with that stuff. As for the insurance I usually send it out with the estimate. It can make the difference of getting the job or not.


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

wje said:


> Did she use red font in the letter she wrote for you?
> 
> One thing I've learned is red font=red flag. No matter what the writing spells.


Yes! Red font. Yellow paper!


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Absolutely no reason on earth to take on a customer like this. They will want you to tape off the ceiling,up the sides of the frames, etc... They will want you to paint the way they would do it.
If you think that looks bad wait till you start!
You will be their employee
I have been handed scopes of work by HO's but never been told how to do my job.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'll take demanding customers all day long.


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

They couldn't afford you Scott


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> They couldn't afford you Scott


70% cannot, that's correct. :thumbsup:


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Before we even entered the house, she mentioned over and over again that I should be careful not to paint the wooden beams. "You must use blue tape to protect the wooden beams". Guess what I found when I inspected the wooden beams? Yep, brush strokes and spray marks all over them. I pointed them out to her, as I always do before starting a project, so we are not blamed later on. Her reply was "You gotta make sure you clean them up".


----------



## bmoorecl (May 29, 2013)

Looks like to me,someone is trying to say,....I'm more smarter than you think,so don't try to get over on me.I know all th ropes...(NO FUNNY BUSINESS)..


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Amazing Painting said:


> Before we even entered the house, she mentioned over and over again that I should be careful not to paint the wooden beams. "You must use blue tape to protect the wooden beams". Guess what I found when I inspected the wooden beams? Yep, brush strokes and spray marks all over them. I pointed them out to her, as I always do before starting a project, so we are not blamed later on. Her reply was "You gotta make sure you clean them up".


From the pictures you've posted, it looks as if she's trying to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Amazing Painting said:


> Before we even entered the house, she mentioned over and over again that I should be careful not to paint the wooden beams. "You must use blue tape to protect the wooden beams". Guess what I found when I inspected the wooden beams? Yep, brush strokes and spray marks all over them. I pointed them out to her, as I always do before starting a project, so we are not blamed later on. Her reply was "You gotta make sure you clean them up".



I can see why she's a little paranoid. Hopefully they didn't sell her that they were the best money could buy. One thing to be piss poor, but arrogantly over priced on top? I can understand if they were the ONLY painting crew within 50 miles, but jeeesh, down here it's competitive.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ill be looking forward to a few new posts in the ''HATE'' thread soon :whistling2:


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

looks like she had a very poor quality paint job before, so you kinda understand why she's particular this time around.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> looks like she had a very poor quality paint job before, so you kinda understand why she's particular this time around.


Looking where the "beams" meet the wall, the crown, and the door and frame, The finish carpentry won't win any prizes either.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Looking where the "beams" meet the wall, the crown, and the door and frame, The finish carpentry won't win any prizes either.



nothing to beam about
.
.

Yup they were beaming . . . . . JIM Beaming


----------



## Happee_grrl (Feb 9, 2014)

*Yikes! But...*

This post gave me the heeby-jeebies...

And then I remembered last spring, when a local decorator called me. She had a client she called "particular." No one in three counties would touch her. I had nothing going on, it was spring break. (I filled in for a maternity leave at the local high school last spring.) She had been trying to get someone to paint since November.

Apparently she was a neat freak, and everyone thought she was a little bit cuckoo about things. Turns out she has an allergic grandchild who she babysits quite often.

I gave her a hefty estimate, and she took it. I showed up in fastidiously clean clothes, didn't get a drop on myself, by the way.

Finished the job in 4 days. She even insisted on feeding me every day. She even gave me a $100 bonus for being quick and clean. 

Sometimes people surprise you. One of my favorite ladies. Plus she makes a mean pulled pork, and I've made 1000's off her referrals. I'd go back in a heartbeat.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> Looking where the "beams" meet the wall, the crown, and the door and frame, The finish carpentry won't win any prizes either.


 
Hell, I could do better than that


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> Hell, I could do better than that


with your eyes closed and BOTH hands tied behind your back


----------



## 12th man (Mar 18, 2014)

As far as the propper toilet use....
I worked with a guy that totally wrecked someones bathroom..plumber had to be called. It was definately a nightmare. Kinda funny now though


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

How can someone be so ape like to wreck the homeowners bathroom ? That sort of behaviour gives tradesmen bad reputations.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

12th man said:


> As far as the propper toilet use....
> I worked with a guy that totally wrecked someones bathroom..plumber had to be called. It was definately a nightmare. Kinda funny now though


 
we need details man


----------



## 12th man (Mar 18, 2014)

I cant really speak for the details beause I was not in the bathroom with him obviously. But there was flooding.. I picture it going something like that scene from dumb and dumber


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Alright, so here is what is happening. I sent her the quote on Saturday without the references. I didn't want her calling my previous customers without knowing if she was comfortable with my quote. She called me yesterday looking for the 3 references. I asked her if she was okay with the quote i gave her and she said "yes".
However now she wants me to paint 14 vinyl windows. Obviously I told her that they were not included in the original quote. She was okay with paying for that. However I told her that I did not recommend painting vinyl windows And I explained to her that some manufacturers will void the warranty if the vinyl windows are painted.
What is your opinion regarding painting vinyl windows?


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Amazing Painting said:


> Alright, so here is what is happening. I sent her the quote on Saturday without the references. I didn't want her calling my previous customers without knowing if she was comfortable with my quote. She called me yesterday looking for the 3 references. I asked her if she was okay with the quote i gave her and she said "yes".
> However now she wants me to paint 14 vinyl windows. Obviously I told her that they were not included in the original quote. She was okay with paying for that. However I told her that I did not recommend painting vinyl windows And I explained to her that some manufacturers will void the warranty if the vinyl windows are painted.
> What is your opinion regarding painting vinyl windows?


IIRC, the issue is painting them colors with a low LRV. I'd check with the manufacturer.

Good luck.


----------



## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

We provide the names, addresses and phone numbers of the last 30 jobs we've done with every proposal to a new prospective client. We get permission from our previous clients to do so. References are a basic component our work. 

We would only push back with her about our employees personal information The other push back would be about setting a particular start and finish date as weather and other factors out of our control could impact those promises.

This customer definitely seems to be waving a red flag but by the looks of the pictures of the beams it looks too like she had a nightmare experience with the last 'painter'. As someone said earlier, do a good job for her and you'll likely have a referral and client for life.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just saw the pics. :blink:

Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words!


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Write up a ridiculously long proposal highlighting YOUR expextations, and bid extremely high.


----------



## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

Missed something very important, #22: No sleeping with my wife :whistling2:


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Stonehampaintdept said:


> Missed something very important, #22: No sleeping with my wife :whistling2:


We will be in your neck of the woods looking at a couple jobs the next week or two.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Stonehampaintdept said:


> Missed something very important, #22: No sleeping with my wife :whistling2:



Yah know,I think if the customer said, "Take my wife . . . . PLEASE!"


That just MAY be a red flag


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

#23 had better be "bring or back" ...I'm a very literal person


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

Roamer said:


> We provide the names, addresses and phone numbers of the last 30 jobs we've done with every proposal to a new prospective client. We get permission from our previous clients to do so. References are a basic component our work.
> 
> We would only push back with her about our employees personal information The other push back would be about setting a particular start and finish date as weather and other factors out of our control could impact those promises.
> 
> This customer definitely seems to be waving a red flag but by the looks of the pictures of the beams it looks too like she had a nightmare experience with the last 'painter'. As someone said earlier, do a good job for her and you'll likely have a referral and client for life.


Hey Roamer,

I also provide prospective customers with a list of previous customer. I was a little nervous to send her that list, because I could picture her calling every single person on the list.

I politely ask our prospective clients to only call 2-3 customers. I explain to them that we do several estimates throughout the month, so we try not to disturb our previous customers too much.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Amazing Painting said:


> Hey Roamer,
> 
> I also provide prospective customers with a list of previous customer. I was a little nervous to send her that list, because I could picture her calling every single person on the list.
> 
> I politely ask our prospective clients to only call 2-3 customers. I explain to them that we do several estimates throughout the month, so we try not to disturb our previous customers too much.


With our reference list we provide we only give email address no phone numbers. If a potential customer asks for a phone number I simple say we can not provide a phone number per the peoples request. An email is provided for you to contact them with. So far every one who has emailed our past customers has gotten a response.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

One good thing about Angie's list reviews is the client doesn't need to check references. Bad thing, they think all A companies are the same. They're not. We're the best. ;-)



Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Brian C said:


> How can someone be so ape like to wreck the homeowners bathroom ? That sort of behaviour gives tradesmen bad reputations.


Burritos can do that!:whistling2:


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> I'll take demanding customers all day long.


Great Scott!


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Damon T said:


> One good thing about Angie's list reviews is the client doesn't need to check references. Bad thing, they think all A companies are the same. They're not. We're the best. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


 
speaking of

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2013/09/10/aint-it-time-to-say-goodbye-to-angies-list/


----------



## mastr (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm going to go against the grain on this thinking in the homeowners point of view. 

If I am the homeowner and I have had problems in the past this document will:

1. scare off hacks
2. dictate the pace and quality of the job
3. keeps contractors on their toes
4. set the requirements that are expected

Will ultimately create a better outcome quality and money wise.

This is a lot better than a crazy customer who you don't know is crazy before you put the bid in.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

chrisn said:


> speaking of
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2013/09/10/aint-it-time-to-say-goodbye-to-angies-list/



Interesting article. Hard to imagine they lose money every year, as they charge a lot of money to a lot of people. Crazy! 
It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see them lose their power. I say we go back to the way things were before cell phones, Internet and all that fancy stuff. Nobody calling me during the day while I'm off at work. Remember the good old days? ;-)


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> They couldn't afford you Scott


 Who cares?
Find the ones who demand the best and are willing to pay for it.
That is where the greatest margins are.
Fill in work with the next lowest income level for your area.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Monstertruck said:


> Who cares?
> *Find the ones who demand the best and are willing to pay for it.
> That is where the greatest margins are.*
> Fill in work with the next lowest income level for your area.


generally speaking your margins will be relative to your skill set and have very little to do with how pretty the house looks


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Ole34 said:


> generally speaking your margins will be relative to your skill set and have very little to do with how pretty the house looks


I guess my skill set isn't profitable enough to do low-end repaints and NC.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Some people get TOO damaged by their past experiences. This person is emotionally disturbed and will find problems even if they don't exist.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

I think they're putting something in the water again......I got a similar email last night. Not as bad as this one but still, 600 words describing the scope of the project to me. Its a complete exterior and 99% or clients simply say "we'd like and estimate please" this guy felt the need to write up an essay for us. Reply: Unfortunately your requested dates do not work with our schedule.


----------



## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

*Decide for yourself*

Look at the other criteria surrounding this job and decide for yourself. #1 Do you think he will pay you? #2 How many days will you have to endure his micro-management? (The list is just the beginning) #3 How did the trades before you find him? #4 What other work do you have?

I recently did a job for a micro-manager. On day 1 I was getting ready to spray 20 solid doors that I carded on strips and tacked on top with dbl strips. He came in to inspect. He decided to move an empty double door frame a little farther away (although it was covered with a drop sheet.) When he swung it around he knocked down one whole line of about 10 solid doors! Good thing I was working by the hour! I bit my tounge for the following 2 weeks as did all the other trades. He literally ruined his entire renovation. 
That said you are running a business. Every client isn't going to be perfect but their money spends the same so satisfy them, yourself and GET PAID. If you don't your competitor will. I would have a short friendly chat with the HO. Then, If you decide to bid, 1. Get a materials deposit before you start, 2. Get a signed work order with a few changes suggested above IE: no employee addresses) A WO is only reasonable as he has issued you a document). He thinks he's acting in a business like fashion so he will respect you more if you act that way too. It's just about respect. #4 Your work order should include payments to you at 33%, 66% and 100% completion #5. Before starting each phase have him approve a small sample BEFORE you complete the phase. #6 Oh ya, the other thing. When working for any micro- manager put your work lights in the truck at the end of the day. If you don't he will have a ToDo list for you in the morning.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

epretot said:


> As weird as it is that the customer put this in writing, it really isn't more than I would expect from a contractor that I hire.


As far as I needed to read. :thumbsup:


----------



## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Amazing Painting said:


> Below is a letter of requirements I received from a "potential customer" during an estimate today. Have you ever come across one of this? Any thoughts?
> 
> Project
> 1. Paint 4 rooms with agreed upon quality paint and color
> ...


I would tell her, I will agree to your 1 thru 12 and 1 thru 21, if you can kindly slip in "22" for me. :jester:
　
*22.* All painting work to be done on a time & material basis @ $60.00 per hour (time clock starts upon arrival to the jobsite and includes all hours worked, load in, setup and clean up time, with (2) 15 min breaks. Lunch break would be off the clock).


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> I would tell her, I will agree to your 1 thru 12 and 1 thru 21, if you can kindly slip in "22" for me. :jester:
> 
> *22.* All painting work to be done on a time & material basis @ $60.00 per hour (time clock starts upon arrival to the jobsite and includes all hours worked, load in, setup and clean up time, with (2) 15 min breaks. Lunch break would be off the clock).


If anything, I'd bump the hourly rate UP, not down, plus I'd include travel time, as well as administrative time to take care of her paperwork.


----------



## Amazing Painting (Sep 29, 2013)

*I got the job!*

Hi Guys,

So here is where we stand. We charged her accordingly to the quality of materials and workmanship she expects. She requested that we added the inside of closets, exterior of the front door and back deck to the scope. Once again I quoted accordingly. We have received a 10% deposit and will start next week. So fair she has been extremely pleasant and we are looking forward to the challenge. 
I will keep you posted. :thumbsup:


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

putlotson said:


> Look at the other criteria surrounding this job and decide for yourself. #1 Do you think he will pay you? #2 How many days will you have to endure his micro-management? (The list is just the beginning) #3 How did the trades before you find him? #4 What other work do you have?
> 
> I recently did a job for a micro-manager. On day 1 I was getting ready to spray 20 solid doors that I carded on strips and tacked on top with dbl strips. He came in to inspect. He decided to move an empty double door frame a little farther away (although it was covered with a drop sheet.) When he swung it around he knocked down one whole line of about 10 solid doors! Good thing I was working by the hour! I bit my tounge for the following 2 weeks as did all the other trades. He literally ruined his entire renovation.
> That said you are running a business. Every client isn't going to be perfect but their money spends the same so satisfy them, yourself and GET PAID. If you don't your competitor will. I would have a short friendly chat with the HO. Then, If you decide to bid, 1. Get a materials deposit before you start, 2. Get a signed work order with a few changes suggested above IE: no employee addresses) A WO is only reasonable as he has issued you a document). He thinks he's acting in a business like fashion so he will respect you more if you act that way too. It's just about respect. #4 Your work order should include payments to you at 33%, 66% and 100% completion #5. Before starting each phase have him approve a small sample BEFORE you complete the phase. *#6 Oh ya, the other thing. When working for any micro- manager put your work lights in the truck at the end of the day. If you don't he will have a ToDo list for you in the morning.[/*QUOTE]Absolutely crucial!:thumbup:
> ...


----------



## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> putlotson said:
> 
> 
> > Look at the other criteria surrounding this job and decide for yourself. #1 Do you think he will pay you? #2 How many days will you have to endure his micro-management? (The list is just the beginning) #3 How did the trades before you find him? #4 What other work do you have?
> ...


----------



## putlotson (Feb 22, 2012)

Amazing Painting said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> So here is where we stand. We charged her accordingly to the quality of materials and workmanship she expects. She requested that we added the inside of closets, exterior of the front door and back deck to the scope. Once again I quoted accordingly. We have received a 10% deposit and will start next week. So fair she has been extremely pleasant and we are looking forward to the challenge.
> I will keep you posted. :thumbsup:


Hi Amazing, good on ya for stepping up to the challenge! Please keep us posted. We wanna hear how this plays out. For example if your smoking staff are undressing in the driveway as regulated in Requirement#12 will the neighbours (Requirements#3) see that as a good thing or a bad thing depending on the size of extension pole they may be using?


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

OMG you took this job? you, my friend, got some massive balls.


----------



## kevinmfaust (Dec 3, 2012)

Good Luck...she may just be cool once she knows you are following her guide lines. On the other hand, this could be the calm before the storm.


----------

