# ceiling lap marks



## tomato head (11 mo ago)

suddenly I'm questioning everything I've done in the past with great success because my last two projects, my ceilings looked like I sat and ate a sandwich between each pass of the roller. The shadowing/lat marks were awful. (No, not lines of paint from the roller edge). And I had a wet edge for sure. I think it must have been years of good luck because now that I'm having issues I dont know why or what to change. 
I have a large new build coming up with huge rooms, 12'-15' walls, and windows from every direction. 
I'd like to spray and backroll to keep up with a good wet edge but have never done this since I have never had a second person. I do now so my question is: Do I spray left and right while other person rolls up and down (obviously the last swipe would all be going in one directions). This seems like it would make for more consistant coverage but that's just a guess. 
And my god, what about celings? Any advice on high large ceilings? The thought of shadowing on the ceilings has me terrified. I use an 18" so def. want to spray due to my arms would want to fall off with all that dipping and rolling.
What's your favorite roller sleeve? I get a 1/2" holds more paint but wouldnt that leave more stipple then? I usually use a 3/8" but I'm a little afraid of not being able to keep a wet edge.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

edit


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

pro doo wooster is a great sleeve. 15 mill, not sure what size that is in freedom units.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

9/16" Arroworthy Microfiber, ideally 14" or 18" for larger ceilings.

The "secret" to ceilings, though, is to roll perpendicular to the biggest light source in the room. So say you have a 15x10 room, but the windows are on the 15' long exterior wall, you actually want to roll horizontal to the 15' wall and not just do it the easy way by doing 10 feet at a time vertical to the windows. By having all your lines be perpendicular to the window/light source you're less likely to see any lap lines. With artificial light it's harder to judge, generally for that I roll perpendicular to the main entrance of the room. 

Some stuff too is depending on the conditions cheap paint (ie, SW Masterhide) can be better, due to being deader flat and somewhat grayed out. You can also prime with a primer like Gardz or even Zinsser Bullseye with a sheen for more open time, but it depends on paint and the conditions, if it's a hot and dry room or humid, etc. I found in particular BM 508 to sometimes not have a lot of open time and flash/picture frame easily without extender, though it only happened drastically on one job for me, other jobs were fine but had less harsh conditions, though it still definitely had less open time than my cheap SW Masterhide. But that one job I was on was really particularly awful using 3/8" Pro-Dooz covers (even little boxes around can lights) but was fixed with a good amount of extender and prewetted microfibers.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

If your taking on jobs that size, you definitely need an extra set of hands. For a ceiling that high, you'll need an extension on your spray gun and either a set of stilts or rolling scaffold. Use a better quality drywall primer and a good hiding ceiling paint like BM Ultra Spec or the 508 (if you can afford it). Spraying and backrolling can be much more efficient, but if the backroller doesn't roll over all your over-spray, you will see that too..Or if your doing it yourself, use a really thick roller and 18'sleeve with extender in your paint. And have a chiropractor booked for the end of the day.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

18" or even a 14" rollers are a MUST HAVE.... What paint were you using?

I suggest spraying and backrolling in the same direction, to keep the wet edge. if you have an 18" and a helper, it will be EASY, and far less intense on shoulders and back.


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## Forest Dan (12 mo ago)

Great suggestions already mentioned. 

Did you notice any shadows before applying fresh coats? I take as many photos before starting any project just in case...


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

If you're masking up to spray, I'd spray all surfaces once without backrolling. This will help seal it up and give you way more working time on the second coat. I'm assuming you're applying 2 coats. There's no benefit to rolling the ceiling twice, especially if you're masking to spray. If I'm setting up to spray anyways, I see very little value in backrolling a ceiling at all, but that's just me. You haven't mentioned whether or not walls & ceilings are same color as one another or different, which makes a difference in the order of operations. 

Even if you can't find someone else to help, if you're masking to spray, it can still be done with 1 person. If it's just you doing the work, you could:
-first spray the walls without backrolling, (gasp)
-spray a coat on the ceilings without backrolling, (gasp again)
-spray 2nd coat on ceilings, but this time in smaller sections, so you could backroll as you go, (if you want) .
-brush & roll 2nd coat on walls

In the above order of operations, I'm assuming you're painting a different color on the walls than ceilings. Spraying the walls & ceilings first without backrolling is fast, and it allows you to get a good solid coat on them, which should make your second coat via brush & roll much easier. Don't worry about wall overspray on the ceilings. They'll get covered up with 2 coats of ceiling paint. Don't worry about ceiling overspray on the walls, since they'll get brushed & rolled after ceilings. 

Provide pics so we can see the lap marks. If you're painting over a poorly sealed surface, it makes a difference. Sometimes even 2 coats of good paint can show laps over crappy builders flat. Also specify which products you're using, including the colors & sheen/s, the current temps, the applicators you're using, and whether you're dealing with smooth wall or texture. Here in the Oregon, we have way more texture than smooth, so walls are typically orange peel and ceilings are usually knockdown/brocade. If your ceilings are like ours with heavy texture, you can skip the rolling altogether and just spray 2 good coats on the ceiling. Rolling would be a complete waste of time. 

*If you want good advice tailored to your specific situation, you must first provide specifics. The amount of useful feedback people receive here is directly proportionate to the amount of info they provide. *


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

I don't know if Jack Pauhl videos are taboo here or not anymore, but with the open time thing, you can see how much of a difference open time makes. The ceiling is still 100% wet and he's halfway through. Of course lots of cheats in that video like no cutting in first, speeding it up, etc. Not that every single job needs Gardz, etc, but just some food for thought.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

celicaxx said:


> I don't know if Jack Pauhl videos are taboo here or not anymore, but with the open time thing, you can see how much of a difference open time makes. The ceiling is still 100% wet and he's halfway through. Of course lots of cheats in that video like no cutting in first, speeding it up, etc. Not that every single job needs Gardz, etc, but just some food for thought.


They aren't taboo as far as I know. I remember that vid and wonder why he chose not to tint the Gardz at least 2/oz per gal. I also remember wondering why he didn't cross hatch it by rolling the opposite direction, (since he clearly rolled the same direction with the Gardz as he's rolling in that image). 

I think JP offered up a lot of useful info, and I liked the fact the he was constantly trying to improve efficiency without (hopefully) sacrificing quality. Some of his vids were rather humorous though, like watering down his cut bucket 20% +, then taking a few swipes to cut in the smooth wall next to ceiling, then proceeding to boast about how quick he is. Still though, I almost always enjoyed his posts & vids.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

celicaxx said:


> I don't know if Jack Pauhl videos are taboo here or not anymore, but with the open time thing, you can see how much of a difference open time makes. The ceiling is still 100% wet and he's halfway through. Of course lots of cheats in that video like no cutting in first, speeding it up, etc. Not that every single job needs Gardz, etc, but just some food for thought.


I wonder if I should start a new thread asking those here who are interested in getting an even coat of paint on a wall or ceiling that gets an inordinate amount of exterior light if they have ever given such walls or ceilings 2 coats of Gardz or equivalent sealer before rolling paint on.

futtyos


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

I think another technical aspect to ceilings sort of regardless of the paint you use is obviously everyone says "keep a wet edge" but what does it actually mean? 

I think the biggest trouble I see with ceilings done by DIYers, but even some pros, is that on ceilings people tend to be very miserly with paint, as in, they just simply don't apply enough paint, and don't dip back into their tray often enough once they start hearing the roller run dry. They do this because dipping back up and down seems like more work than just pushing harder to get the last drops out of the roller. And/or they're miserly with paint due to cost. Pushing down hard is when all the bad stuff happens. If you "paint like your daddy owns the paint store" on ceilings, while there might be freak bad conditions, etc, for the most part it shouldn't give you trouble. By doing that you'll get a thick consistent mil layer of paint on. Roller texture/etc can theoretically be an issue, but again if it's a thicker layer it'll have more open time to level off compared to a thinner layer, so you should still aim generally on the side of thicker and more paint than thinner and less paint. If a ceiling is vaulted or slanted in some manner then obviously you need to be more careful on how you apply it as now you can have runs and sags, but I would still say 99% of the problems I see from painting ceilings are just not applying enough paint. 

That JP video shows this kinda thing, too, he dips his roller approx every 8 feet, and is using a 1/2" nap roller cover, but then lays off the whole section in one go to make it one consistent mil thickness and moves on and doesn't screw with it more. So obviously part of it is the Gardz, but even without Gardz his technique alone on the ceiling would help a lot compared to someone without that kind of technique. 

The "bad" technique would be someone going in the M/W pattern until the roller is totally out of paint, then you'd get your weird lines and textures, as when you overlapped then the heavier filled roller would then be a way different paint layer thickness than the last line made when the roller was run dry, and since the roller was run dry that line is probably already starting to set up so it can't be backrolled without messing it up, and backrolling won't create a the consistent layer anyway as the mil thicknesses are still way different. 

So Gardz is good, and especially on new construction or skimcoat it seems like a no brainer to use nowadays, but I think mainly it's technique related.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> They aren't taboo as far as I know. I remember that vid and wonder why he chose not to tint the Gardz at least 2/oz per gal. I also remember wondering why he didn't cross hatch it by rolling the opposite direction, (since he clearly rolled the same direction with the Gardz as he's rolling in that image).
> 
> I think JP offered up a lot of useful info, and I liked the fact the he was constantly trying to improve efficiency without (hopefully) sacrificing quality. Some of his vids were rather humorous though, like watering down his cut bucket 20% +, then taking a few swipes to cut in the smooth wall next to ceiling, then proceeding to boast about how quick he is. Still though, I almost always enjoyed his posts & vids.


All this talk of Gardz over the years, I don't recall anyone mentioning that you could actually tint it. Honestly, why wouldn't you?!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> All this talk of Gardz over the years, I don't recall anyone mentioning that you could actually tint it. Honestly, why wouldn't you?!


Wouldn't that be like desecrating holy water?


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> All this talk of Gardz over the years, I don't recall anyone mentioning that you could actually tint it. Honestly, why wouldn't you?!


I was once told that it can't be tinted. Perhaps what they meant is "_we won't_ tint it" - ? But now I'm wondering again.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I have to be honest, when I read posts about guys using 18” rollers, especially for ceilings, I cringe. Never used one in my entire painting career, even though I can understand the potential benefit of doing so. The part that makes me cringe is what frequent use might be doing to guys’ necks and shoulders. Those covers hold a fair amount of paint which equals increased weight which is compounded even more by putting the whole thing at the end of an extension pole.

In my fifties I started to develop pain in my neck, across my right shoulder, and down my arm that got so bad that I eventually had to have spinal surgery to fuse several of my vertebrae. The surgery was successful and I was able to return to work but ever since I have had to severely limit or carefully pace the ceiling work I do. If not, the same issues I had pre-surgery would begin to flare up. In looking back, I can actually pinpoint several jobs that were likely the tipping point between me being okay after a specific job to where I could never completely recover - only endure continuous and slowly increasing pain. I wish I had listened to my body and understood and heeded the warning signs before reaching the point where my body could no longer heal itself.

Now, to be clear, I am not advocating you guys give up using 18” rollers, only that you be careful and pay attention to those nagging body aches, especially any in your back, neck, or across your shoulders, as well as any numbness in the fingers of your affected side. And _really_ pay attention if they start to become chronic. Do warm ups, stretching, and break up your ceiling work as much as you can. Better yet, get help on jobs where you have a lot of ceilings to do.

I know you young bucks out there will likely scoff and think, “Whatever old man.”, but trust me, us old farts once thought we were invincible too and often abused our bodies because we never thought about the consequences. But the years move fast and if you don’t take care of yourselves now, you WILL eventually pay the price.

Okay, slowly (but surely) climbing down off my soap box now.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> All this talk of Gardz over the years, I don't recall anyone mentioning that you could actually tint it. Honestly, why wouldn't you?!


Remember DeArch speaking of how Gardz was a concrete sealer that was reformulated by Scotch Paints in southern California under the name "Draw-Tite" to act as a seal for torn wallpaper after being removed? Woodco seems to be the only one here who now uses Scotch Paint's Draw-Tite. Draw-Tite comes in several versions: Draw Tite™ Products, The Original High Performance Sealer/Primer.

I do not use the likes of white-tinted Draw-Tite so much that I would drive from near Chicago to Wawatosa near Milwaukee (75 miles), Wisconsin to get it, but they do have a white tinted version.

futtyos


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

RH said:


> I have to be honest, when I read posts about guys using 18” rollers, especially for ceilings, I cringe. Never used one in my entire painting career, even though I can understand the potential benefit of doing so. The part that makes me cringe is what frequent use might be doing to guys’ necks and shoulders. Those covers hold a fair amount of paint which equals increased weight which is compounded even more by putting the whole thing at the end of an extension pole.
> 
> In my fifties I started to develop pain in my neck, across my right shoulder, and down my arm that got so bad that I eventually had to have spinal surgery to fuse several of my vertebrae. The surgery was successful and I was able to return to work but ever since I have had to severely limit or carefully pace the ceiling work I do. If not, the same issues I had pre-surgery would begin to flare up. In looking back, I can actually pinpoint several jobs that were likely the tipping point between me being okay after a specific job to where I could never completely recover - only endure continuous and slowly increasing pain. I wish I had listened to my body and understood and heeded the warning signs before reaching the point where my body could no longer heal itself.
> 
> ...


I'm 61 now and starting to feel the results of a life long working man, but I may have a bit of a different perspective. I know guys my age that have worked at a desk all their life and they look 10 years older than me. Years ago when I first joined this forum I boasted that the young guys still couldn't keep up with me. I think it might have been you, RH, that cautioned me not to get too full of myself because time catches up with all of us. You were right, and I have learned to work within the limits of my age. But, that being said, I believe that the years I spent working hard, pushing 18s on ceilings to get the job done etc., kept me in shape when others were wasting away. Some guys go to a gym to work out, lots of guys like us work out every day getting the most they can out of their work. The thing I tell the younger guys that ask for my advice is listen to your body. If you feel good after a day of hard work then keep it up. If you get to the point that you're recovery time is taking a toll then it's time to re-think your work strategy. I'm pretty sure that was the advice you were giving me, and I think that it is sound advice.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gwarel said:


> I'm 61 now and starting to feel the results of a life long working man, but I may have a bit of a different perspective. I know guys my age that have worked at a desk all their life and they look 10 years older than me. Years ago when I first joined this forum I boasted that the young guys still couldn't keep up with me. I think it might have been you, RH, that cautioned me not to get too full of myself because time catches up with all of us. You were right, and I have learned to work within the limits of my age. But, that being said, I believe that the years I spent working hard, pushing 18s on ceilings to get the job done etc., kept me in shape when others were wasting away. Some guys go to a gym to work out, lots of guys like us work out every day getting the most they can out of their work. The thing I tell the younger guys that ask for my advice is listen to your body. If you feel good after a day of hard work then keep it up. If you get to the point that you're recovery time is taking a toll then it's time to re-think your work strategy. I'm pretty sure that was the advice you were giving me, and I think that it is sound advice.


I just recently retired at the age of 68 and felt pretty proud that I could still go out and put in a full day’s work and not end up feeling like crap at the end of the day. Like you, I felt that doing what we do helped me stay in generally good shape as well as fairly flexible.

And I agree with your assessment that being physically active on a daily basis is better than sitting all day. If something were bothering me I could often work away the tension associated with it rather than letting it build up. When I taught school, I would come home exhausted at the end of the day - but it wasn’t a good type of tiredness since it was primarily stress induced. When I painted, I might come home equally exhausted but it was the result of physical activity and generally felt good compared to the other kind.

And, as you said, my message was primarily aimed at the younger guys, suggesting that as they age they try and adopt practices that won’t beat up their bodies quite as much and to not ignore the signs if semi-chronic pain or numbness problems crop up.

Still, with carpel tunnel slowly creeping into my left hand, and arthritis issues popping up here and there, I realized there were kinder, better, and more controlled ways (ex. - the gym) for me to maintain my strength and flexibility. So, I decided it was time to hang it up before some other debilitating condition showed up. Still, I do find myself missing it - but pretty sure I’ll get over it.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

celicaxx said:


> "I think another technical aspect to ceilings sort of regardless of the paint you use is obviously everyone says "keep a wet edge" but what does it actually mean?"
> 
> Here is what "keep a wet edge" means to me. Back in 2012 I had to get back into painting to make money. I had several jobs come up that involved skim coated ceilings. I joined Paint Talk and did some research. Along the way I read Jack Pauhl and watch some of his videos. I decided to use Gardz more than was directed. Here is the actual verbiage for the application of Gardz:
> 
> ...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

RH said:


> I have to be honest, when I read posts about guys using 18” rollers, especially for ceilings, I cringe. Never used one in my entire painting career, even though I can understand the potential benefit of doing so. The part that makes me cringe is what frequent use might be doing to guys’ necks and shoulders. Those covers hold a fair amount of paint which equals increased weight which is compounded even more by putting the whole thing at the end of an extension pole.
> 
> In my fifties I started to develop pain in my neck, across my right shoulder, and down my arm that got so bad that I eventually had to have spinal surgery to fuse several of my vertebrae. The surgery was successful and I was able to return to work but ever since I have had to severely limit or carefully pace the ceiling work I do. If not, the same issues I had pre-surgery would begin to flare up. In looking back, I can actually pinpoint several jobs that were likely the tipping point between me being okay after a specific job to where I could never completely recover - only endure continuous and slowly increasing pain. I wish I had listened to my body and understood and heeded the warning signs before reaching the point where my body could no longer heal itself.
> 
> ...



Because using an 18" is FAR LESS WORK. Its not like its that much heavier than a 9" roller anyway. With a 9" roller, you basically go up and down 60-70 times on a wall, and with an 18", you only do it about 20 times. Its less work, less energy spent,, less strain on your shoulders and back. Same with a ceiling. Not to mention, it looks better. the only PITA is cleaning it. 

Its especially easy for backrolling a ceiling. You just walk from one side to the other, and you just laid off an 18" strip of paint. Youd have to do that 4-5 times with a 9"


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

As far as using gardz to keep an open time, i dont understand how thats even gonna be beneficial, as its only gonna work for the first coat of paint. The second coat will still be exaclty the same as any other time you do a second coat, so it really seems like it would be defeating the purpose, and you just turned a two coat job into a three or four coater for no reason. I still say the best way to do it is to simply MOVE FASTER.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Because using an 18" is FAR LESS WORK. Its not like its that much heavier than a 9" roller anyway. With a 9" roller, you basically go up and down 60-70 times on a wall, and with an 18", you only do it about 20 times. Its less work, less energy spent,, less strain on your shoulders and back. Same with a ceiling. Not to mention, it looks better. the only PITA is cleaning it.
> 
> Its especially easy for backrolling a ceiling. You just walk from one side to the other, and you just laid off an 18" strip of paint. Youd have to do that 4-5 times with a 9"


Guess you missed the parts where I said I understood the benefits of using them and that I wasn’t advocating for guys to stop using them. Only that they be alert to any warning signs their body might be sending out with regards to possible neck and back problems.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

What Im saying is that you will have LESS neck and back problems by using a wider roller, as it doesnt strain your body as much with so many repetitive motions. Doing 80 reps with 40 lbs, will tax your body far more than 20 reps with 50. I think thats a fair analogy. Try it sometime. Its not as physically demanding as using a 9". Especially backrolling. Backrolling with an 18" you will do more standing around waiting for the sprayer to catch up. With a 9", the backroller is moving nonstop while that sprayer has to wait for them to catch up.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> What Im saying is that you will have LESS neck and back problems by using a wider roller, as it doesnt strain your body as much with so many repetitive motions. Doing 80 reps with 40 lbs, will tax your body far more than 20 reps with 50. I think thats a fair analogy. Try it sometime. Its not as physically demanding as using a 9". Especially backrolling. Backrolling with an 18" you will do more standing around waiting for the sprayer to catch up. With a 9", the backroller is moving nonstop while that sprayer has to wait for them to catch up.


Regardless, just take care of yourself and be aware of what you’re body is telling you. Ignoring the signs and powering through them ( because that’s what we do) is probably one of the biggest mistakes I made in my “younger” years.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

is it just me or are flat ceilings never perfectly flat? i just did a flat ceiling at a 45 degree angle and when the natural light hits it it still doesnt look that good


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Vylum said:


> is it just me or are flat ceilings never perfectly flat? i just did a flat ceiling at a 45 degree angle and when the natural light hits it it still doesnt look that good


The secret is to just not look up. No one else does.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Vylum said:


> is it just me or are flat ceilings never perfectly flat? i just did a flat ceiling at a 45 degree angle and when the natural light hits it it still doesnt look that good


No, ceilings and walls are never flat. Try putting a 4 ft level across it sometime. You'll see for yourself. Only as good as the guy who plastered it.


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## Three putt yony (Jan 30, 2018)

Joe67 said:


> The secret is to just not look up. No one else does.


My biggest problem I am always looking up for glasses. Just crazy


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Woodco said:


> What Im saying is that you will have LESS neck and back problems by using a wider roller, as it doesnt strain your body as much with so many repetitive motions. Doing 80 reps with 40 lbs, will tax your body far more than 20 reps with 50. I think thats a fair analogy. Try it sometime. Its not as physically demanding as using a 9". Especially backrolling. Backrolling with an 18" you will do more standing around waiting for the sprayer to catch up. With a 9", the backroller is moving nonstop while that sprayer has to wait for them to catch up.


What you say might be true for some people some of the time. I tried rolling a large ceiling with an 18" roller back in the late 1980's. Never again for me! I will use 14" rollers, but not 18". If I did more work and was in better shape I might try taking on an 18" again, but I am confidant I won't kill myself using a 14".

futtyos


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

I would use a decent drywall primer, I liked Coronado but primer specific for new drywall. They quit carrying Coronado here so next job I will try the new PVA primer from Benjamin Moore, if anyone has used it let me know if it is better then PVA of the pat that people did not like.
I use both extender and Floetrol together for a wet edge the Floetrol seems to level better and less struggle rolling. 
I back roll the primer and use a decent Flat only spraying the flat and not back roll usually using 517 tip. 
one could use a wider tip for bigger ceilings and extension wand for less trips up and down ladders.


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

tomato head said:


> suddenly I'm questioning everything I've done in the past with great success because my last two projects, my ceilings looked like I sat and ate a sandwich between each pass of the roller. The shadowing/lat marks were awful. (No, not lines of paint from the roller edge). And I had a wet edge for sure. I think it must have been years of good luck because now that I'm having issues I dont know why or what to change.
> I have a large new build coming up with huge rooms, 12'-15' walls, and windows from every direction.
> I'd like to spray and backroll to keep up with a good wet edge but have never done this since I have never had a second person. I do now so my question is: Do I spray left and right while other person rolls up and down (obviously the last swipe would all be going in one directions). This seems like it would make for more consistant coverage but that's just a guess.
> And my god, what about celings? Any advice on high large ceilings? The thought of shadowing on the ceilings has me terrified. I use an 18" so def. want to spray due to my arms would want to fall off with all that dipping and rolling.
> What's your favorite roller sleeve? I get a 1/2" holds more paint but wouldnt that leave more stipple then? I usually use a 3/8" but I'm a little afraid of not being able to keep a wet edge.





tomato head said:


> suddenly I'm questioning everything I've done in the past with great success because my last two projects, my ceilings looked like I sat and ate a sandwich between each pass of the roller. The shadowing/lat marks were awful. (No, not lines of paint from the roller edge). And I had a wet edge for sure. I think it must have been years of good luck because now that I'm having issues I dont know why or what to change.
> I have a large new build coming up with huge rooms, 12'-15' walls, and windows from every direction.
> I'd like to spray and backroll to keep up with a good wet edge but have never done this since I have never had a second person. I do now so my question is: Do I spray left and right while other person rolls up and down (obviously the last swipe would all be going in one directions). This seems like it would make for more consistant coverage but that's just a guess.
> And my god, what about celings? Any advice on high large ceilings? The thought of shadowing on the ceilings has me terrified. I use an 18" so def. want to spray due to my arms would want to fall off with all that dipping and rolling.
> What's your favorite roller sleeve? I get a 1/2" holds more paint but wouldnt that leave more stipple then? I usually use a 3/8" but I'm a little afraid of not being able to keep a wet edge.


I had a similar question that I wanted to put out there about issues with ceiling paint jobs. Years ago, I seem to remember that I was able to spray large ceilings with an airless sprayer, without back rolling and without getting lap marks in the overall finish.

Recently I struggled with a large (40 x30) ceiling that was cross lit by high windows. I purchased a Graco 'Clean Shot' valve ahead of time, to eliminate gun spit. This device performs exactly as promised. I painted the ceiling with two finish coats, which were applied days apart. At the end of application, the entire ceiling was soaking wet from corner to corner, but once dry, the signs of application strokes on the final pass (I crossed applied the pattern on the last coat) were clearly evident.

In the end, we had to use large format rollers to apply a final coat and this approach proved acceptable. 

The finish paint was Ben Moore Matte, and while the slight sheen of this paint was likely part of the striping issue, I feel that I would have the same issue using a water-borne flat.

I think that some of the issue may be 'dry fall' coming off the edge of the spray pattern and landing in the drying finish, although there was zero evidence of any striping during and immediately, post application.

Does anyone have any input on this issue?

I am wondering if the use of a low-pressure tip might eradicate the problem, or should I just resign myself to the fact that back rolling is the necessary final touch?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Boston Paint said:


> I had a similar question that I wanted to put out there about issues with ceiling paint jobs. Years ago, I seem to remember that I was able to spray large ceilings with an airless sprayer, without back rolling and without getting lap marks in the overall finish.
> 
> Recently I struggled with a large (40 x30) ceiling that was cross lit by high windows. I purchased a Graco 'Clean Shot' valve ahead of time, to eliminate gun spit. This device performs exactly as promised. I painted the ceiling with two finish coats, which were applied days apart. At the end of application, the entire ceiling was soaking wet from corner to corner, but once dry, the signs of application strokes on the final pass (I crossed applied the pattern on the last coat) were clearly evident.
> 
> ...


Low pressure tip would be the exact opposite of being useful for your situation. If you're still seeing lines in your ceilings after 2 coats sprayed, it's most always due to a lack of pressure producing an insufficient spray pattern. Crosshatching the 2nd coat helps. Having some reflective light during application helps as well.


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Low pressure tip would be the exact opposite of being useful for your situation. If you're still seeing lines in your ceilings after 2 coats sprayed, it's most always due to a lack of pressure producing an insufficient spray pattern. Crosshatching the 2nd coat helps. Having some reflective light during application helps as well.


Brand new Tri Tech T5 boosted up to create nice 'tail' free pattern. Graco Clean Shot for zero spit and a wand of the perfect length. I probably coated the thing with the cross hatch in 20 minutes, and still don't really understand how there could be ghosting lines dry, when the thing was totally soaked and glossy, wet.

Perhaps my primer didn't have enough 'hold out'. I was using acrylic over veneer plaster, and perhaps it was not holding the matte paint fully on the surface?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Boston Paint said:


> Brand new Tri Tech T5 boosted up to create nice 'tail' free pattern. Graco Clean Shot for zero spit and a wand of the perfect length. I probably coated the thing with the cross hatch in 20 minutes, and still don't really understand how there could be ghosting lines dry, when the thing was totally soaked and glossy, wet.
> 
> Perhaps my primer didn't have enough 'hold out'. I was using acrylic over veneer plaster, and perhaps it was not holding the matte paint fully on the surface?


Why were you using a matte on your ceilings? Switch to a dead flat. All the same, I've never had luck getting a good look without backrolling. But that's just my experience.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Boston Paint said:


> Brand new Tri Tech T5 boosted up to create nice 'tail' free pattern. Graco Clean Shot for zero spit and a wand of the perfect length. I probably coated the thing with the cross hatch in 20 minutes, and still don't really understand how there could be ghosting lines dry, when the thing was totally soaked and glossy, wet.
> 
> Perhaps my primer didn't have enough 'hold out'. I was using acrylic over veneer plaster, and perhaps it was not holding the matte paint fully on the surface?


Did you read Celicaxx' post #9 above as well as watch the Jack Pauhl video he posted showing a ceiling being painted over a surface sealed with *_*? You will have to check that post out to see what product I am referring to. I have done this on a number of large ceilings and have never had a problem with lap marks. 

futtyos


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Why were you using a matte on your ceilings? Switch to a dead flat. All the same, I've never had luck getting a good look without backrolling. But that's just my experience.


Designer specified the Matte finish and to make matters even more difficult, there were transom windows almost to the ceiling, so a ton of raking light. I have never had a problem with flat, but any higher in sheen seems to be an issue unless using oil.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Had to do a kitchen ceiling a few years ago where the HO wanted a semi-gloss sheen. Horrible.


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

RH said:


> Had to do a kitchen ceiling a few years ago where the HO wanted a semi-gloss sheen. Horrible.


I don't doubt that! We have done ceilings in semi gloss oil before and those work out OK because of the extra working time and spray application, but in general, a ceiling in anything other than dead flat is trouble.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Matte on ceilings are harder that satin or semigloss, IMO... You kinda NEED an 18" to make it look nice. We learned that on a job once. Three coats of matte, all looked like crap, then the original painters said they used 18" in the first place, so when we did that, it came out good. (the company I worked for did the drywall on this job, and something went wrong, so we had to repaint another paint companies work, rather than repay them to redo it. My boss was such a cheapskate he wanted us to borrow the other companies 18" to do it right...)


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Boston Paint said:


> Brand new Tri Tech T5 boosted up to create nice 'tail' free pattern. Graco Clean Shot for zero spit and a wand of the perfect length. I probably coated the thing with the cross hatch in 20 minutes, and still don't really understand how there could be ghosting lines dry, when the thing was totally soaked and glossy, wet.
> 
> Perhaps my primer didn't have enough 'hold out'. I was using acrylic over veneer plaster, and perhaps it was not holding the matte paint fully on the surface?


What size tip?


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

Woodco said:


> Matte on ceilings are harder that satin or semigloss, IMO... You kinda NEED an 18" to make it look nice. We learned that on a job once. Three coats of matte, all looked like crap, then the original painters said they used 18" in the first place, so when we did that, it came out good. (the company I worked for did the drywall on this job, and something went wrong, so we had to repaint another paint companies work, rather than repay them to redo it. My boss was such a cheapskate he wanted us to borrow the other companies 18" to do it right...)


After failing with sprayer, we resorted to rolling with 14" kit and got great results. I just don't understand why the spray approach failed, given that I was able to apply so much paint so quickly. I think it is because the paint at the edge of the spray pattern is actually drying in the air and landing on the wet surface and causing some subtle change in the sheen as it all dries.

Paint is always a mystery and never boring!


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

My opinion is that when you roll, or backroll, you add texture, which diffuses the light. That is why I think backrolling, even on the prime coat, will give better results and make touch ups harder to detect also.


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## Boston Paint (Apr 16, 2021)

Gwarel said:


> My opinion is that when you roll, or backroll, you add texture, which diffuses the light. That is why I think backrolling, even on the prime coat, will give better results and make touch ups harder to detect also.


I think you make a great point there - thank you!


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> If your taking on jobs that size, you definitely need an extra set of hands. For a ceiling that high, you'll need an extension on your spray gun and either a set of stilts or rolling scaffold. Use a better quality drywall primer and a good hiding ceiling paint like BM Ultra Spec or the 508 (if you can afford it). Spraying and backrolling can be much more efficient, but if the backroller doesn't roll over all your over-spray, you will see that too..Or if your doing it yourself, use a really thick roller and 18'sleeve with extender in your paint. And have a chiropractor booked for the end of the day.


Lol… everything you said, I already do 🤣. EVERYTHING…(scaff. not stilts though), including the BM ultra AND the chiro. That’s hilarious 😂.
my 1/2” was/is SO heavy after a bit, my helper couldn’t keep up worth a crap so I went back to dipping every 5 seconds, the homeowner wanted a tinted paint (NOT just ceiling g white, it’s more yellow than white) .
Looks good from every direction from the floor but up on scaffold at eye level, it’s questionable. I’m assuming the homeowners won’t be crawling up my scaffold


Woodco said:


> Because using an 18" is FAR LESS WORK. Its not like its that much heavier than a 9" roller anyway. With a 9" roller, you basically go up and down 60-70 times on a wall, and with an 18", you only do it about 20 times. Its less work, less energy spent,, less strain on your shoulders and back. Same with a ceiling. Not to mention, it looks better. the only PITA is cleaning it.
> 
> Its especially easy for backrolling a ceiling. You just walk from one side to the other, and you just laid off an 18" strip of paint. Youd have to do that 4-5 times with a 9"


Cleaning it?! Good lord. For the time it takes, throw the 16$ thing away!


finishesbykevyn said:


> If your taking on jobs that size, you definitely need an extra set of hands. For a ceiling that high, you'll need an extension on your spray gun and either a set of stilts or rolling scaffold. Use a better quality drywall primer and a good hiding ceiling paint like BM Ultra Spec or the 508 (if you can afford it). Spraying and backrolling can be much more efficient, but if the backroller doesn't roll over all your over-spray, you will see that too..Or if your doing it yourself, use a really thick roller and 18'sleeve with extender in your paint. And have a chiropractor booked for the end of the day.


lol. Everything g you said I already do/use/did… right down to the chiropractors 🤣. Unfortunately my “help” ended up being more work than help, so I ditched the spraying-back rolling because he couldn’t even backroll straight. 
yes, it’s a bit ridiculous the size of jobs I take on, but if the builders want me knowing I work alone, then who am I to say no? Lol Less loading, moving and unloading from job to job. A bit stressful when on one job for a month but far less stressful than redoing crappy helper work.


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

Gwarel said:


> My opinion is that when you roll, or backroll, you add texture, which diffuses the light. That is why I think backrolling, even on the prime coat, will give better results and make touch ups harder to detect also.


Oh absolutely!


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

tomato head said:


> Lol… everything you said, I already do 🤣. EVERYTHING…(scaff. not stilts though), including the BM ultra AND the chiro. That’s hilarious 😂.
> my 1/2” was/is SO heavy after a bit, my helper couldn’t keep up worth a crap so I went back to dipping every 5 seconds, the homeowner wanted a tinted paint (NOT just ceiling g white, it’s more yellow than white) .
> Looks good from every direction from the floor but up on scaffold at eye level, it’s questionable. I’m assuming the homeowners won’t be crawling up my scoffold


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

celicaxx said:


> 9/16" Arroworthy Microfiber, ideally 14" or 18" for larger ceilings.
> 
> The "secret" to ceilings, though, is to roll perpendicular to the biggest light source in the room. So say you have a 15x10 room, but the windows are on the 15' long exterior wall, you actually want to roll horizontal to the 15' wall and not just do it the easy way by doing 10 feet at a time vertical to the windows. By having all your lines be perpendicular to the window/light source you're less likely to see any lap lines. With artificial light it's harder to judge, generally for that I roll perpendicular to the main entrance of the room.
> 
> Some stuff too is depending on the conditions cheap paint (ie, SW Masterhide) can be better, due to being deader flat and somewhat grayed out. You can also prime with a primer like Gardz or even Zinsser Bullseye with a sheen for more open time, but it depends on paint and the conditions, if it's a hot and dry room or humid, etc. I found in particular BM 508 to sometimes not have a lot of open time and flash/picture frame easily without extender, though it only happened drastically on one job for me, other jobs were fine but had less harsh conditions, though it still definitely had less open time than my cheap SW Masterhide. But that one job I was on was really particularly awful using 3/8" Pro-Dooz covers (even little boxes around can lights) but was fixed with a good amount of extender and prewetted microfibers.


Oh I def. “go towards the light”.. lol. Last two jobs just threw me off but come to find out, it was a bad batch of paint. The paint store I go to had a lot of complaints about it. They never did figure out what happened. Who knows. Maybe it froze enroute to the store…


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

Woodco said:


> Because using an 18" is FAR LESS WORK. Its not like its that much heavier than a 9" roller anyway. With a 9" roller, you basically go up and down 60-70 times on a wall, and with an 18", you only do it about 20 times. Its less work, less energy spent,, less strain on your shoulders and back. Same with a ceiling. Not to mention, it looks better. the only PITA is cleaning it.
> 
> Its especially easy for backrolling a ceiling. You just walk from one side to the other, and you just laid off an 18" strip of paint. Youd have to do that 4-5 times with a 9"


Cleaning?! The cost vs my time… it gets tossed!


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

Woodco said:


> 18" or even a 14" rollers are a MUST HAVE.... What paint were you using?
> 
> I suggest spraying and backrolling in the same direction, to keep the wet edge. if you have an 18" and a helper, it will be EASY, and far less intense on shoulders and back.


I use an 18” almost always. 
My paint from the local paint store and I won’t mention any names but it ended up being a bad batch of paint after finding out several of us had problems. Not sure what happened to it!


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## tomato head (11 mo ago)

Woodco said:


> As far as using gardz to keep an open time, i dont understand how thats even gonna be beneficial, as its only gonna work for the first coat of paint. The second coat will still be exaclty the same as any other time you do a second coat, so it really seems like it would be defeating the purpose, and you just turned a two coat job into a three or four coater for no reason. I still say the best way to do it is to simply MOVE FASTER.


Gardz puts a layer between the paint and the drywall or crappy primer, keeping the moisture from the paint from being sucked away. So once it’s on there, any amounts of coatings will be kept from having this happen. I get what you’re saying about the two coats three coats etc etc though. Depends.


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