# Wood Quandry



## fauxlynn

1. Longtime wonderful client/designer
2. Beautiful, expensive piece of furniture
3. It’s badly faded over time
4. It’s veneer

I tried to push for a scuff and re-stain, maybe I’m wrong. She doesn’t want to go that way because of a few shallow scratches on the top surface.

She wants me to woodgrain to match former color, visible on the interior of door.



















I guess I’m okay with that. 
My question is: has anyone been able to duplicate that glimmer that you see in woods of this type? I’ve often thought about trying to incorporate mica powder but, I know glazes tend to negate the effect,

Thoughts? On any of it?


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## RH

wow - faded is an understatement. 

As to the glimmer (which I am not seeing- or not sure what you are referring to), I would probably be asking you.


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## fauxlynn

RH said:


> wow - faded is an understatement.
> 
> As to the glimmer (which I am not seeing- or not sure what you are referring to), I would probably be asking you.


Is it called effervescence? It’s maple.
Ugh,I can’t remember.
Point taken RH but, I thought maaaaaybe Mr. NY Fancy painter/woodworker/part time stand in for James Bond/ conqueror of band groupies might have a suggestion.


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## Redux

fauxlynn said:


> Is it called effervescence? It’s maple.
> Ugh,I can’t remember.
> Point taken RH but, I thought maaaaaybe Mr. NY Fancy painter/woodworker/part time stand in for James Bond/ conqueror of band groupies might have a suggestion.


You forgot to add Wilson to the description...

It looks more like domestic black walnut that’s been bleached out by UV light. 

The shimmery look which I suspect you’re referring to is achieved with molecular dyes. I’ve only used pearlescent mica powders with encaustic type plasters & waxes, but I don’t see why they wouldn’t work with other mediums such as clear coats or glazes.

Edit: Maybe the shimmery thingy you’re referring to are ray flecks which act like tiny mirrors and bounce light off the surface. The fleck in walnut is usually too small to be noticed.


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## RH

fauxlynn said:


> Is it called effervescence? It’s maple.
> Ugh,I can’t remember.
> Point taken RH but, I thought maaaaaybe Mr. NY Fancy painter/woodworker/part time stand in for James Bond/ conqueror of band groupies might have a suggestion.


No, no, I really don't.







:devil3:


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## fauxlynn

Redux said:


> You forgot to add Wilson to the description...
> 
> It looks more like domestic black walnut that’s been bleached out by UV light.
> 
> The shimmery look which I suspect you’re referring to is achieved with molecular dyes. I’ve only used pearlescent mica powders with encaustic type plasters & waxes, but I don’t see why they wouldn’t work with other mediums such as clear coats or glazes.
> 
> Edit: Maybe the shimmery thingy you’re referring are ray flecks which act like tiny mirrors and bounce light off the surface. The fleck in walnut is usually too small to be noticed.


I agree that picture looks like walnut, I’d be surprised if it is because everything in the house is maple. Thanks for your opinion. Man, Leo over at ContractorTalk told me a while back what it’s called.


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## fauxlynn

RH said:


> No, no, I really don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :devil3:


Sir, this is a Wendy’s.


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## Redux

Chatoyance


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## fauxlynn

These illustrate that glimmer pattern better. Fiddleback?


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## fauxlynn




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## Joe67

I get the shimmer, and have gotten it with real wood and clears (if the wood is right).


Unfortunately, we already know I'm not a faux guy. Seems like Redux is your best resource. And then there's break out some scrap and start playing around. I love it when I get to just play around to figure out how to do something. Far more interesting than cutting and rolling another wall.


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## Redux

fauxlynn said:


> These illustrate that glimmer pattern better. Fiddleback?
> 
> View attachment 107005
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107007


The photos are clearly better..obviously maple..yes, fiddleback aka flamed or tiger maple.
Nitric acid aka aqua fortis really pops the figure and color, only on raw wood which goes without say.


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## fauxlynn

Chatoyance!!!! Thank you.
How am I supposed to remember that?!

I guess I’m going to get out the mica powder and give it a go. I wish just carefully stripping and re staining would work but the wood guy already looked at it and said no way. I really hate that I’m going to put primer and paint on that. I’m confident I can make it look real, just a shame to lose the actual real. thing, imho.

Edit- in 50 years someone is going to look at that and wonder what knucklehead painted over beautiful maple.


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## Joe67

fauxlynn said:


> Chatoyance!!!! Thank you.
> How am I supposed to remember that?!
> 
> I guess I’m going to get out the mica powder and give it a go. I wish just carefully stripping and re staining would work but the wood guy already looked at it and said no way. I really hate that I’m going to put primer and paint on that. I’m confident I can make it look real, just a shame to lose the actual real. thing, imho.
> 
> Edit- in 50 years someone is going to look at that and wonder what knucklehead painted over beautiful maple.



In that case, I suggest a signature and a middle finger. Leave a number too. You'll still be around to take calls for it.


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## fauxlynn

Joe, that’s what I would say if I came upon such a piece. 

You reminded me of a friend’s car that his grandma gave him. For whatever reason it still had her license plate - ‘OH2B29’


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## Joe67

fauxlynn said:


> Joe, that’s what I would say if I came upon such a piece.
> 
> You reminded me of a friend’s car that his grandma gave him. For whatever reason it still had her license plate - ‘OH2B29’



OH2B25 must have been taken. I remember being 25 and clearly thinking it was exactly the right age to be. Now in my 50s I can't think of any reason that I was wrong about that. But at this point 29 would still do just as well. Hell, by now I'd take 40 again.


And yes. Chatoyance! With the right species/quality/cut of wood, it's not hard to get. In faux work? I have no idea. But I have faith in you. If we weren't into craft we wouldn't be here. (Well, ok. Some of us worry more about production than craft, but there's still craft either way).


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## fauxlynn

Don’t give up!


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## Brushman4

RH said:


> wow - faded is an understatement.
> 
> As to the glimmer (which I am not seeing- or not sure what you are referring to), I would probably be asking you.


Ditto, what RH said, how old is this piece of furniture?


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## fauxlynn

Brushman4 said:


> Ditto, what RH said, how old is this piece of furniture?


It’s been in this foyer for 20 years. The house is modern with huge glass panels and skylights. When you stand outside you can see the 20 or so pieces of Chihuli glass mounted 20 ft . up on the interior walls. Huge. Weird that they had the windows coated just a few years ago.


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## Joe67

That can't be fade. For one thing, it's just far too even in color. And far too light. You couldn't make walnut - or whatever the dark stuff is - look like that even in a vat of bleach and left in the desert. And it certainly wouldn't have faded on the interior of the cab/drawers which match the exterior rather than the inside of the door. The grains are totally different too. The current exterior just looks like classic tiger maple veneer, while the inside of the door looks like a walnut veneer. Why it would be designed that way, who knows. Very weird. Maybe there was an initial option to install the doors for contrast or to match. 



Guess I don't actually have a point that helps figure out what to do. But that thing was never the same as the door interiors.


Though the thought comes to mind to find some actual wood veneer that matches the insides of the door, lay it on as a new layer, and then lacquer it (or the like). I don't know if doing veneer is in your skill set - not in mine. I've done it DIY, but not good enough to pass it off professionally, so I wouldn't try.


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## fauxlynn

Yeah, the wood guy already passed on this job. I’ve stripped veneer but haven’t applied veneer.

Anyway, I questioned the evenness of the fade as well. Under those sculptures is darker and every door and rawer top edge is dark. The insides were not originally stained. I don’t have pictures but, the top edges of the large doors are dark and then faded out at the front edge. I think too, maybe the inside door panels got darker from no sunlight. 

IDK. The wood guy probably built the thing for this designer so I’ll take her at her word.


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## Redux

Joe67 said:


> You couldn't make walnut - or whatever the dark stuff is - look like that even in a vat of bleach and left in the desert. .



Walnut fades like mad in UV light and can turn bleached blonde in < 5 years.


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## Joe67

Redux said:


> Walnut fades like mad in UV light and can turn bleached blonde in < 5 years.



I've never seen that, and have seen plenty of the opposite. But I'll not argue the point as it won't help anyone. 



But all the UV light in the world won't re-arrange the grain from tiger maple stripes to basic long grain walnut. Look at the grains on the top. That and the interior of the door are two totally different things. Although, I just looked closer at the pics on the sides, and there I don't see the tiger stripes. The top is tiger maple (or similar). The sides? Can't say. Strange piece to be sure.


But if the wood guy passed on it, then worrying about this aspect of it doesn't help the conversation. All I know at this point is that I'd likely learn a lot watching lynn experiment with how to replicate it. And I look forward to seeing pics.


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## Redux

Joe67 said:


> I've never seen that, and have seen plenty of the opposite. But I'll not argue the point as it won't help anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> But all the UV light in the world won't re-arrange the grain from tiger maple stripes to basic long grain walnut. Look at the grains on the top. That and the interior of the door are two totally different things. Although, I just looked closer at the pics on the sides, and there I don't see the tiger stripes. The top is tiger maple (or similar). The sides? Can't say. Strange piece to be sure.
> 
> 
> But if the wood guy passed on it, then worrying about this aspect of it doesn't help the conversation. All I know at this point is that I'd likely learn a lot watching lynn experiment with how to replicate it. And I look forward to seeing pics.




I’m not debating or in disagreement that the wood is maple, agreeing that it is as previously stated. I’m also well aware that UV light doesn’t magically rearrange figure in wood and create tiger stripes. FYI, tiger or flame figure is inherent to several different species including black walnut, flamed walnut looking very similar to the maple’s in Lynn’s photos, less the brown tones. There’s a good example at the following link:

https://lairat.com/portfolio_page/flamed-walnut-3/

Recent experiences also dictate, after having spec’d, provided resources for sourcing, and having finished ~ 15,000 board feet of lumber which consisted of a mix of domestic black and white walnut (aka butternut) on my present project, that black walnut is very susceptible to drastic color fade in the presence of sunlight, so much that my client had Lutron solar shades installed, and scoffed up every cotton duck drop cloth at every local Sherwin Williams dealer within a 20 mile radius, using them to cover all the more expensive walnut furnishings & countertops in order to protect them from fading when the home isn’t occupied during the week.


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## fauxlynn

That photo is stunning. I’ve never seen black walnut like that. Gorgeous. I’m no wood expert but what I've always have seen in walnut that I don’t think I’ve seen in other wood is how jiggidy jaggedy the growth rings are. 

So there’s a 100 year old black walnut tree directly across the street from my house. Every time we get thunderstorms I picture it getting struck in half and demolishing my house. I wonder if the county knows how valuable that tree is.


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## Joe67

A stunning pc of walnut that will make a stunning guitar body. (And hopefully play loud, obnoxious hard rock music).


@*Redux*, looking at what I wrote I guess it seemed more argumentative than intended. I was looking at the pic of the interior of the door, and of the top of the piece and just didn't see any way that these were the same species or cut of wood regardless of fade. I was just trying to imagine the interior of that door fading to look like the top and couldn't see it. Of course they're just pics which are not worth 1,000 words in the subtleties of wood finish.


Anyway, I'm sure lynn will come up with something good and inspire us with pics.


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## CApainter

I'm wood ignorant. So, having FauxiLynn and Redux discuss it, is inspiring. I wish I'd learned more about wood so I could provide some input. Alas, I have nothing.


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## Redux

I know of one type of wood that would be impossible for Lynn to emulate by any faux means due to it’s chatoyancy & iridescence. 

A client of mine had a custom dining table fabricated out of a massive live edge slab of 50,000 yr old prehistoric Kauri wood, having never seen or heard of the wood before.

The ancient Kauri trees thrived in New Zealand’s swamp-like environments, living for nearly 2000 years before dying off. After dying off, the massive trees remained perfectly preserved for tens of thousands of years in the peat bogs where they fell. The prehistoric trees are extracted from the bogs and sawn into useable timber. The iridescence and chatoyancy of the ancient Kauri is unmatched, almost resembling a 3-D hologram. The present day Kauri trees are however a protected species and aren’t harvested for timber. Below is a link illustrating the Kauri’s iridescence.






Below is a link of the extraction.


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## Joe67

Redux said:


> I know of one type of wood that would be impossible for Lynn to emulate by any faux means due to it’s chatoyancy & iridescence.
> 
> A client of mine had a custom dining table fabricated out of a massive live edge slab of 50,000 yr old prehistoric Kauri wood, having never seen or heard of the wood before.
> 
> The ancient Kauri trees thrived in New Zealand’s swamp-like environments, living for nearly 2000 years before dying off. After dying off, the massive trees remained perfectly preserved for tens of thousands of years in the peat bogs where they fell. The prehistoric trees are extracted from the bogs and sawn into useable timber. The iridescence and chatoyancy of the ancient Kauri is unmatched, almost resembling a 3-D hologram. The present day Kauri trees are however a protected species and aren’t harvested for timber. Below is a link illustrating the Kauri’s iridescence.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nFeL6ijIxOI
> 
> Below is a link of the extraction.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nU2vcYuutWA



Holy shhhh cow. That's pretty amazing. I do love wood.


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## finishesbykevyn

Redux said:


> I know of one type of wood that would be impossible for Lynn to emulate by any faux means due to it’s chatoyancy & iridescence.
> 
> A client of mine had a custom dining table fabricated out of a massive live edge slab of 50,000 yr old prehistoric Kauri wood, having never seen or heard of the wood before.
> 
> The ancient Kauri trees thrived in New Zealand’s swamp-like environments, living for nearly 2000 years before dying off. After dying off, the massive trees remained perfectly preserved for tens of thousands of years in the peat bogs where they fell. The prehistoric trees are extracted from the bogs and sawn into useable timber. The iridescence and chatoyancy of the ancient Kauri is unmatched, almost resembling a 3-D hologram. The present day Kauri trees are however a protected species and aren’t harvested for timber. Below is a link illustrating the Kauri’s iridescence.
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nFeL6ijIxOI
> 
> Below is a link of the extraction.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nU2vcYuutWA


That's incredible!


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## Brushman4

Old-growth logs especially ones that have been underwater for hundreds of years are extremely valuable and highly sought after. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...the-sea/245e847a-57e1-4a88-b011-6b81cc820d61/

And lets not forget about petrified wood! 
https://geology.com/stories/13/petrified-wood/#forest


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## Redux

Brushman4 said:


> Old-growth logs especially ones that have been underwater for hundreds of years are extremely valuable and highly sought after. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...the-sea/245e847a-57e1-4a88-b011-6b81cc820d61/
> 
> And lets not forget about petrified wood!
> https://geology.com/stories/13/petrified-wood/#forest


Yup. I’ve worked a lot with old growth sinker cypress pulled from swamps. The pics are of old growth cypress which had been submerged for ~ 200 years. I wet the boards with mineral spirits just to illustrate the colors. The different colors are due to the different bottoms where the logs were pulled from. 

I once did a floor that was fabricated out of 1000+ yr old English bog oak. The logs were extracted from peat bogs and milled up into a grid work which picture framed reclaimed 13th century medieval heraldic tiles. I did all the final surfacing using crude hand tools in order to maintain period character.

I also had a client purchase a 16th century English countryside timber frame relic farmhouse. The oak skeleton was carefully disassembled, each part labeled, shipped to the US, and reassembled, with a new structure built around it. I was told that the oak sub-species had long since been extinct. Don’t laugh at the photo...it was taken some 38 years ago in the early 80’s..been at this painting & wood finishing way too long..


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## fauxlynn

You never told us you were lead for REO Speedwagon.


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## RH

So, that's where all those 80's **** flicks where the housewife seduces the painter got their start.


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## Redux

RH said:


> So, that's where all those 80's **** flicks where the housewife seduces the painter got their start.


Actually you’re not too far off...rather than adult entertainment flicks, it’s actually where several Oscar winning movies got their start, being that the client was a Hollywood screenwriter & movie director..


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## fauxlynn




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## gemstone

Woodgraining is a lost art, it was usually done to imitate quarter sawn oak in the very early 1900's. Anyone ruining that fiddle maple with a paint brush trying to woodgrain it should be forced to paint the Brooklyn Bridge with a 2" sash brush. The piece needs to be sent out to a furniture restoration shop. My 2 cents...

Regards
Gemstone


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## JMoorhouse

My 2 cents, it looks like it was bleached with wood bleach. Way to even to be color fade.

I would suggest staining, if it was bleached it will absorb even more stain. If there is a clear coat, obviously that would have to be removed.


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## fauxlynn

As hard as it is to believe, this piece has not been chemically bleached.
As far as wood bleach, it’s clear coated. It would need to be stripped to be bleached. I know it’s clear coated based on my observation of missing areas of clear on the top surface,wear and tear. As I already stated, the tops of drawers that were protected are very dark. The wood guy refused to strip it because it’s veneer. 

In person it’s much easier to see the variances due to sun damage. On the one picture with the Christmas bulbs you can see a faint vertical line on the leg demarcating the faded part from the unfaded.














































This piece sits in a house that literally has 20 ft of glass front, right, left and skylights.


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## Redux

fauxlynn said:


> As hard as it is to believe, this piece has not been chemically bleached.
> As far as wood bleach, it’s clear coated. It would need to be stripped to be bleached. I know it’s clear coated based on my observation of missing areas of clear on the top surface,wear and tear. As I already stated, the tops of drawers that were protected are very dark. The wood guy refused to strip it because it’s veneer.
> 
> In person it’s much easier to see the variances due to sun damage. On the one picture with the Christmas bulbs you can see a faint vertical line on the leg demarcating the faded part from the unfaded.
> 
> View attachment 107031
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107033
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107035
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107037
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107039
> 
> 
> 
> This piece sits in a house that literally has 20 ft of glass front, right, left and skylights.


The fading doesn’t surprise me and I deal with it often, working primarily on modern beach homes where all the perimeter curtain walls are floor to ceiling glass.

Many times faux wood graining is really the only option due to a lot of furniture veneers being just too darn thin in order to strip, or by being limited by having to work with the existing finishes. 

This thread sorta reminds me of one instance with that DC designer David who you’ve worked with, having me look at 4 beautiful custom built veneered furnishings which were made for one of my clients, yet the clients wanted them redone shortly after taking delivery for one reason or another. After I’d met with his furniture maker, both he and I had concurred that the veneers were just too darn thin to strip or to work with the existing finishes in order to achieve the look the client had hoped for. Being somewhat inept at wood graining and not a faux artist by any means (aside from the basics), I didn’t put that option on the table, having passed, more like ran and didn’t look back. 

Looking forward to seeing what a real artist (you) can do @ making magic happen with that piece.


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## fauxlynn

Trust me, if this were my credenza I’d be paying someone to replace the veneer. Knowing these clients as I do, I’m confident that they’re ok with going to a faux option. As this is most likely an expensive piece of furniture, it’s not an important antique. If it were, I wouldn’t touch it.


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## kentdalimp

I realize I am late to the party. My only suggestion would be to look at something like Belbien before committing to painting over it. 

We use it somewhat regularly for Door Repairs. It's EXPENSIVE (even more so with Shipping) But most people with some common sense and attention to detail could do a decent install. 

Anyway, just my $0.02. At least if they went with Belbien they could remove it in the future!


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## fauxlynn

kentdalimp, I checked out the Belbien website, awesome stuff. I invented that in my head ten years ago, doh! Thanks for the idea, client is undecided as to what to do.


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## PPD

Whoa...late to the party (whats new?) but that fade is mind-blowing! Is she positive thats all from UV damage? The color is so even...

Hope u topped that sucker w/ some serious UV protectant at the end to avoid a call 10yrs from now to do it all over again


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## fauxlynn

PPD said:


> Whoa...late to the party (whats new?) but that fade is mind-blowing! Is she positive thats all from UV damage? The color is so even...
> 
> Hope u topped that sucker w/ some serious UV protectant at the end to avoid a call 10yrs from now to do it all over again


Trust me, it’s decades of sun. Last night I had a call with the designer and she said they asked about fade resistant protectant. She told them most likely not. They live in a huge contemporary home. The front entry is probably 10 x 20+, every bit of it getting sunlight from the ceiling of skylights. She told me for whatever reason the skylights can’t be coated with anything.

If it takes thirty years for it to fade again we’ll probably be dead. 

Anyway, there’s a meeting tonight to see if they want to proceed.


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## IKnowNothing

fauxlynn said:


> Trust me, it’s decades of sun. Last night I had a call with the designer and she said they asked about fade resistant protectant. She told them most likely not. They live in a huge contemporary home. The front entry is probably 10 x 20+, every bit of it getting sunlight from the ceiling of skylights. She told me for whatever reason the skylights can’t be coated with anything.
> 
> If it takes thirty years for it to fade again we’ll probably be dead.
> 
> Anyway, there’s a meeting tonight to see if they want to proceed.


I guess by now the meeting is over.
I hope you got the job.


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## fauxlynn

It’s a go. On hold until February. That’s fine, gives me time to paint the Brooklyn Bridge with a chip brush.


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## kentdalimp

fauxlynn said:


> kentdalimp, I checked out the Belbien website, awesome stuff. I invented that in my head ten years ago, doh! Thanks for the idea, client is undecided as to what to do.


Sorry I missed this before! Good luck with the work...in February. At least you have plenty of time to come up with a plan of attack! :biggrin:


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## fauxlynn

I’m going to sub it out to my intern, Joe67


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## Joe67

fauxlynn said:


> I’m going to sub it out to my intern, Joe67



Oh boy Lynn. You'll have to rethink that one. I haven't had my training yet! I can't even do a simple one like those dumb distressed blue chairs I asked about. I've got something working that she's happy with though. I'll be posting an update sometime soon...


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## fauxlynn

Joe, I’m sure those chairs look fine. I’m going to test my other theory on this before Feb. I also have to figure out how I’m going to copy it more exactly , as in they would like the grain lines in the same place. Ha.


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