# H&C Semitransparent concrete stain... help!



## whammo77

We are 'attempting' to use the H&C semitransparent concrete stain... here is what we have done...
1) Removed carpet from floor (house is 40 years old)
2) Concrete looked good, but whoever painted in the room back when, was really sloppy, so we used a floor buffer and got the concrete nice and clean. 
3) Scrubbed and mopped and scrubbed and mopped and scrubbed and..... you get the point
4) Used the H&C cleaner/degreaser as instructed, then scrubbed and mopped and scrubbed and mopped to make sure we got it all up
5) Used the H&C etching (full strength), let it sit 10 minutes as the directions say, then and mopped and scrubbed and mopped to make sure we got it all up
6) We wanted a light brown color, which H&C doesn't seem to make, so I emailed them and they suggested blending 2 colors.. so we blended 2 parts arctic stone and 1 part expresso. It make a nice light tan/brown color, and we figured it would darken a little when dried and sealed, and we were cool with that
So here's the story.... 
First problem, the color swatches H&C provides are so tiny that you can't tell what dang color you are actually buying. Try to ask someone.... they don't know. So all SW (Sherwin Williams) and H&C can tell you is "do color samples". Ok, yes, let's buy all 16 colors at $64 per gallon and do color samples (only $1,024 dollars to do samples... great idea!). And in case you are wondering, NO, they do not sell it in pints or anything so that you can do samples. They only sell it by the gallon. Brilliant!!! 
So we did some 18" x 18" samples... looked ok... but hard to tell what the final look will be without sealer. So then we mixed up the stain and applied it as directed. It looked really good as it went down.... was just about the right color that we wanted. We knew when it dried it would vary a little, and we expected that. What we DIDN'T expect is that when it dried it would turn a dried blood red color!!!! So then we were like "Oh [email protected]! Now what do we do?????!!!" So we called H&C directly... first we got a woman who repeated the same thing about 20 times ("I can't imagine what would cause it to turn that color, I probably need to send you over to the technical support department"). So finally, we got transferred to some guy in "technical support" and when I explained to him what happened, he was like "so what's the problem??" Really? He was rude as rude could be, and truly offered no advice or "support". What a waste of time. At the end of the call he said "is there anything else I can help you with" and I was like "Help us with? You haven't helped with anything. This call has been totally useless". 
What we have learned thus far is that if you buy this product, you are completely on your own. Don't expect ANY help from H&C. And unfortunately, the SW people want to help, but they really just don't know anything about it (we called all of the stores in our immediate area.... all they could do is cite what it says on the package), All of the SW folks have been really nice and supportive tho. Currently, my local SW store is doing what they can to help, and I really appreciate it. Unfortunately, they just don't know any more about the product than I do..... and the folks that make the product and SHOULD know what we need to know, don't want to be of any assistance. 
We went back in a little while ago and scrubbed the heck out of the floor with sponges and clean water.... it got rid of all the blood red tones, and now it really does look marbelized and looks like real stone.... only problem is, it is varying colors of pinks, reds, maroons and whites. Still no brown tones. Dang it!!! Not sure what to do from here. Just talked to a guy at SW again, he is trying to figure out what we can do to turn it from pink to some shade of brown..... what a mess. 
Well, like I said, SW is really trying to help although I can't find anyone there that knows the product. And H&C is worthless. 
Not sure what to do from here... was really hoping to end up with a nice light brown/tan color, and I got pink. I'm almost scared to try and put another color over it, lord only knows what we might end up with! I could really use some advice from anyone who has experience with this stuff....


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## Bender

But think of all the money you saved by doing it your self!


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## whammo77

Well wasn't that insightful! not......


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## MikeCalifornia

Sounds like you are using the WB? Your first problem is the two colors you are mixing. Arctic Stone is "white" and espresso is "dark red brown", so obviously the color you would get is lighter red brown only pink, because you used white instead of a yellow green color, like cork. Anyway, because it is wb you can just spray on more color, I would thin the espresso down and hudson spray on top. Do not saturate, just blend and sponge if needed. After it dries to you liking clear. If you don't want the dark espresso look, henna or cork color would be good.

H&C used to make samples in half pints that the store could order, not sure if available anymore. Most concrete companies are the same way, very small samples or none at all. Just too many colors to have available. These are normally sold to professionals who do this for a living and make samples for the customer before starting.


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## whammo77

Hi Mike, 

Thank you for an intelligent reply. I appreciate it. 

Yes, we are using the WB stain. 

See, what little info I DID get from H&C, they stated that the Cocoa Bean was a red-brown and that the expresso would be the prefferred choice for mixing down to get to a good medium brown. That's been our problem with this stuff, a total lack of good information. Like I said, SW didn't have a clue. If you have dealt with H&C's color swatches, then you know they are tiny and no way to really distinguish what color you are really getting. All the SW guys could do was look at the swatches and try to give us advice. They honestly don't know much of anything about the product even tho they sell it. 

I have been in general contracting for a long time. I have talked to several painters I know, and they didn't know anything about this stuff either. I have reached out to just about everyone I personally know in the area that might have a clue, and no one really knows anything about it. The stuff just hasn't really caught on here too well yet I guess. The few people who knew anything about concrete staining only knew about acid staining. 

I will work on it and see if some of the tips you gave help. I definitely appreciate it. I'll let you know how it turns out. 

Thanks!


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## straight_lines

You should have demanded to speak to someone at SW that could help you. Skip the counter and ask to speak to a paint rep.


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## whammo77

MikeCalifornia said:


> Sounds like you are using the WB? Your first problem is the two colors you are mixing. Arctic Stone is "white" and espresso is "dark red brown", so obviously the color you would get is lighter red brown only pink, because you used white instead of a yellow green color, like cork. Anyway, because it is wb you can just spray on more color, I would thin the espresso down and hudson spray on top. Do not saturate, just blend and sponge if needed. After it dries to you liking clear. If you don't want the dark espresso look, henna or cork color would be good.
> 
> H&C used to make samples in half pints that the store could order, not sure if available anymore. Most concrete companies are the same way, very small samples or none at all. Just too many colors to have available. These are normally sold to professionals who do this for a living and make samples for the customer before starting.


Thanks for the help Mike. We re-coated the floor with a 1:1 mix of Expresso/water..... after it dried, we used a sponge to dab in the areas that didn't coat well, as you suggested. After everything was dry, it was QUITE dark, and had a VERY strong red hue. So I got my mop bucket out, and mopped it quite well. What could it hurt, right? Apparently the red hues go right to the top, so as soon as we mopped it, it took away the red hues and left us with a very nice medium brown. It has now dried from the mopping, and looks very good! I am now quite pleased with what we are left with. (see attached picture)

I am thinking that maybe the guy at H&C who said that the Cocoa Bean had the red hues had his colors backward... because the Expresso has VERY strong red hues. I am going to go by SW tomorrow and pick up a jug of the Cocoa Bean and do some tests with it. We still have 4 more rooms to do, so hopefully the Cocoa will be the actual look we are looking for. Maybe? If not, I will just drop back to the Expresso, and then mop it afterwards to get rid of the red hues that float to the top. 

That being said, for anyone who reads this, once the product dries (from our experiences), you CAN mop it to get rid of darker tones and lines. Just start with a light mopping, and get more aggressive as you see fit. A certain amount of the stain will penetrate into the concrete and will not be removeable, while another amount will be able to be mopped away. Some of the areas we stained were almost black from the Expresso, so I was a little more aggressive with the mop in those areas.... they ended up a nice medium brown, and didn't get rid of the nice marbelizing look. Actually, it made the marbelizing stand out more. We used a standard mop to clean it up, then a sponge mop for the more aggressive scrubbing. 

Also, if you ARE happy with the color you get after the application (without mopping), you will get some puddling of the stain in various areas... that's almost unavoidable. Make sure to wipe them up. In our case, when we did that, it left a VERY light color (way lighter than the other areas, but I don't know why). So we did as Mike suggested, and went back and dabbed them with a sponge. After it dried, it blended right in, and you couldn't tell. 

We still have a lot of experimenting with this product to become 'proficient' with it, but we are learning. 

Also, in the etching portion, you will get some severely dicolored areas that you would THINK would really show up when you do the stain.... we did 8x8 sections and used a standard shop broom, and did everything the same every time... but we were left with some areas that were extremely discolored and we were worried it would show up after staining.... nope! Everything stained even. I can't promise you that you will have the same results, but that's our experience... hope it helps...


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## Repaint Florida

straight_lines said:


> You should have demanded to speak to someone at SW that could help you. Skip the counter and ask to speak to a paint rep.


 :laughing: :laughing: :lol:

Am i right H&C is owned by SW and good luck ... you'll need it
that why i went from $60,000 with SW last year to maybe $600.00 this year


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## MikeCalifornia

Nice job!! I wouldn't mess with it anymore. Remember when you clear it, the color will be very enhanced.


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## whammo77

Repaint Florida said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :lol:
> 
> Am i right H&C is owned by SW and good luck ... you'll need it
> that why i went from $60,000 with SW last year to maybe $600.00 this year


I honestly couldn't tell you about the relationship between SW and H&C... but I will say that IF SW owns H&C, they should be extremely ashamed of the disconnect they have between the two. We ended up changing our original plan from using the Cocoa Bean to using the Expresso because several of the SW stores in our area swore that H&C had discontinued the Cocoa and that it wasn't available.... however, today, we were told by H&C that heck no, Cocoa was NOT discontinued. So I called back SW and told them what H&C said, and then they checked, and low and behold, now they can find an ample supply of it.  On top of that, if SW owns H&C, then why in the heck does no one at the SW stores in our city not know jack about the product???? 

Honestly, I quit using SW years ago due to repeated problems. However, I went back to them on this deal because it's the only wb stain that anyone actually said was good. I still can't confirm that, but I can defintely say that the customer support for the product SUCKS.....


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## whammo77

MikeCalifornia said:


> Nice job!! I wouldn't mess with it anymore. Remember when you clear it, the color will be very enhanced.


Not about to touch it anymore. I really like the color we came up with! 

Tomorrow we clear coat... then I will update with new pictures when dry. 

I know from reading that everyone prolly thinks we are inexperienced dumb*ss homeowners with no construction experience.... but that's not the case. As said in another thread, I am a commercial GC, and I have had a lot of years doing projects for the govt. Most of my work (90+%) is govt related, so it's not like I'm a retard, I just don't know this product, and info on it is very limited. Therefore, I am trying to explain everything as best as I can as we go through this whole trial and error phase. 

I hope our experience can help others who are looking to use this product. I bashed it pretty hard to start out just because of the limited info avail from H&C and SW.... but I am getting more happy with it as we learn... 

I will keep updating as we progress. 

Thanks!


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## MikeCalifornia

I see you are in the trade. I got that from your other posts. Your OP seemed to be very HO'ish. I am sorry for the accusation I made. 

I worked for SW for 13 years. They have owned H&C since I worked there. Getting into semi-stains, dyes, and acids is new, but not that new for them. Most stores will carry some WB stuff but unless they have had a training session or tried it themselves, they would be useless. The deal with these stains is they are generally sold to people in concrete trade. They are the experts and as a store employee, you don't have to know anything to earn their business as these products are "I've got that too" products. In each district there is usually one or two stores that carry the bulk of concrete products. They might even have a dedicated rep in concrete. The products are expensive and most stores shy away from carrying due to carrying costs and lack of knowledge. As you have found out, most customer service departments are data page knowledge only. Dumb for this type of industry, but that is the way it is. Hope this sheds light on your situation.

I went through the training and carried all the colors, so to me what you are experiencing would not have happened at my store. But that was over a year ago. You did good to make it happen like you did.


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## whammo77

MikeCalifornia said:


> I see you are in the trade. I got that from your other posts. Your OP seemed to be very HO'ish. I am sorry for the accusation I made.
> 
> I worked for SW for 13 years. They have owned H&C since I worked there. Getting into semi-stains, dyes, and acids is new, but not that new for them. Most stores will carry some WB stuff but unless they have had a training session or tried it themselves, they would be useless. The deal with these stains is they are generally sold to people in concrete trade. They are the experts and as a store employee, you don't have to know anything to earn their business as these products are "I've got that too" products. In each district there is usually one or two stores that carry the bulk of concrete products. They might even have a dedicated rep in concrete. The products are expensive and most stores shy away from carrying due to carrying costs and lack of knowledge. As you have found out, most customer service departments are data page knowledge only. Dumb for this type of industry, but that is the way it is. Hope this sheds light on your situation.
> 
> I went through the training and carried all the colors, so to me what you are experiencing would not have happened at my store. But that was over a year ago. You did good to make it happen like you did.


Well, as you suggested, SW does have a main distribution center here, but even they carried almost no product and knew nothing about it. It was the first place I called. A friend of mine was a manager down there way back in the day, so I knew exactly where to call here locally, but unfortunately it was to no avail. 

I have found the process to be very aggravating. I am actually in the process of remodeling our house (we purchased it back in July of this year). I have had numerous people ask me if we know how to do the water based stain, and we had to turn them away because we have no experience with it. So, I figured, why not try it on my own house and let it be the guinea pig? Since I can't find anyone around here that knows the product, I thought maybe it would be a nice little extra niche for us. And we're never going to learn it if we don't try. I figured in a worst case scenario, I could carpet over it if it turns out hideous lol. Until last night I felt like a hampster in a cage running fast as I can and going nowhere. lol

I did contact SW today, and they emailed me back and a District Manager is supposed to call me tomorrow about the H&C product. Hopefully he can come up with a little info on the product for us.


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## straight_lines

Repaint Florida said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :lol:
> 
> Am i right H&C is owned by SW and good luck ... you'll need it
> that why i went from $60,000 with SW last year to maybe $600.00 this year


My rep is awesome. What ever I need I only need to call, text, or email and he will make it happen.


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## Repaint Florida

straight_lines said:


> My rep is awesome. What ever I need I only need to call, text, or email and he will make it happen.


send him to Florida ... them could use the help 

sad when you sw rep left and went to work for behr

had issue with hc clear coat , 15 site visits from sw and 1 from h&c and 9 months later their answner is strip off clear and leave

never mind ho paid for clear they tell me to spend my labor & time to remove their product ... very professional imo


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## paintball head

straight_lines said:


> My rep is awesome. What ever I need I only need to call, text, or email and he will make it happen.


My SW rep would take his dear sweet time the few times I had questions for him. On top of that SW pricing and service has pushed me away.


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## brewwrig

*Quick question*

is this a product I can roll onto the concrete floors? :thumbup:



MikeCalifornia said:


> Sounds like you are using the WB? Your first problem is the two colors you are mixing. Arctic Stone is "white" and espresso is "dark red brown", so obviously the color you would get is lighter red brown only pink, because you used white instead of a yellow green color, like cork. Anyway, because it is wb you can just spray on more color, I would thin the espresso down and hudson spray on top. Do not saturate, just blend and sponge if needed. After it dries to you liking clear. If you don't want the dark espresso look, henna or cork color would be good.
> 
> H&C used to make samples in half pints that the store could order, not sure if available anymore. Most concrete companies are the same way, very small samples or none at all. Just too many colors to have available. These are normally sold to professionals who do this for a living and make samples for the customer before starting.


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## CRS

In the future .... just follow their motto. Ask Sherwin Williams!

I am glad you did get it worked out. I have had painter friends in similar situations. The aqueous concrete stains are tricky.


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## rbtucson

I just used H&C concrete water based stain on my side walk and patio after waiting 45 days for it to set. Do I need to use sealer on this low traffic area.


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