# Gardz over new drywall.



## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Earlier this year I was curious as to how well Gardz would work as a straight primer over new drywall. 

I was not dissatisfied but was wondering if anyone had done this before and had any unpleasant results from doing so. 

P.S. I topcoated with two coats of S-W Superpaint satin sheen. 


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Ramus8T said:


> Earlier this year I was curious as to how well Gardz would work as a straight primer over new drywall.
> 
> I was not dissatisfied but was wondering if anyone had done this before and had any unpleasant results from doing so.
> 
> ...


The following is from the GARDZ TDS:

NEW DRYWALL/JOINT COMPOUND AND SPACKLING 
GARDZ penetrates and uniformly seals, creating a moisture resistant film that protects drywall from blistering, tearing and other damage when re-decorating in the future.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Ramus8T said:


> Earlier this year I was curious as to how well Gardz would work as a straight primer over new drywall.
> 
> I was not dissatisfied but was wondering if anyone had done this before and had any unpleasant results from doing so.
> 
> ...


It's totally designed for drywall. However, I don't like how it dry's clear, as I like to see where difficincies are..Downsides would probably be that it drys clear and maybe longer dry times between coats..as it seals so well..


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> It's totally designed for drywall. However, I don't like how it dry's clear, as I like to see where difficincies are..Downsides would probably be that it drys clear and maybe longer dry times between coats..as it seals so well..



I had it tinted with 2oz of white but it didn’t do anything to show any imperfections. 

You are correct, it seals very well. I’ve used it for plaster repair, drywall repair, and in a bathroom and a couple of room thus far. It has a learning curve though since it has a consistently akin to water. 


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Ramus8T said:


> I had it tinted with 2oz of white but it didn’t do anything to show any imperfections.
> 
> You are correct, it seals very well. I’ve used it for plaster repair, drywall repair, and in a bathroom and a couple of room thus far. It has a learning curve though since it has a consistently akin to water.
> 
> ...


I'll generally use GARDZ for problem surfaces like damaged drywall, plaster, or when a consistent sheen holdout is required on a finish. Otherwise, I think it runs too much, has a pretty strong odor, and probably not cost effective to apply on raw drywall for basic painting. I prefer Zinsser Bullseye 123 as a general raw drywall primer.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I'm with CAPainter - it's not at all fun to use unless needed for one of its specialized purposes. And for new drywall you don't need it. One of the worst things is the fumes. I won't roll it without a respirator and make sure I have someplace else to be for a good 1-2 hrs after.


I didn't think it could be tinted, but sounds like it didn't help much anyway.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I prefer Zinsser Bullseye 123 as a general raw drywall primer.



I've been a huge fanboy of 123 for years. Up until the last couple of years. I know PAC used to say they'd changed the formula when they started selling it in big box stores, but I know it's been available at big orange since I started painting almost 20 years ago. It seemed to be the same until a few years ago. Now, the hiding is terrible and I'm really starting to question the adhesion.


Unfortunately I'm somewhat limited in terms of my options around here.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've been a huge fanboy of 123 for years. Up until the last couple of years. I know PAC used to say they'd changed the formula when they started selling it in big box stores, but I know it's been available at big orange since I started painting almost 20 years ago. It seemed to be the same until a few years ago. Now, the hiding is terrible and I'm really starting to question the adhesion.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I'm somewhat limited in terms of my options around here.


I suppose I favor Bullseye 123 because of it's ready availability. Everyone seems to sell it. As far as diminishing qualities of the product, perhaps it's true. But what hasn't been diluted down, or altered for better or worse in the interest of money, and or environmental concerns? Not saying that's a bad thing. Just the consequence of the lessons learned from an industrial era.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I think the final nail in the coffin for me about 123 occurred about a month ago. Substantial kitchen reno, walls moved, significant drywall repair, etc. GC and I decided we'd just drive over everything with 123. He walked in after I'd done so and said "I thought you were going to prime everything rather than just spot prime?" It was brutal. The existing paint colours weren't anything concerning, but you could barely tell I'd rolled over it all with a 13mm sleeve.


Even over raw drywall, you can see right through the stuff now seeing every single tape joint, every single screw.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I think the final nail in the coffin for me about 123 occurred about a month ago. Substantial kitchen reno, walls moved, significant drywall repair, etc. GC and I decided we'd just drive over everything with 123. He walked in after I'd done so and said "I thought you were going to prime everything rather than just spot prime?" It was brutal. The existing paint colours weren't anything concerning, but you could barely tell I'd rolled over it all with a 13mm sleeve.
> 
> 
> Even over raw drywall, you can see right through the stuff now seeing every single tape joint, every single screw.


Opacity was never a concern for me with 123. Even thirty years ago, it covered only slightly better than a PVA sealer would in my opinion. It was the bonding qualities I was more interested in. 

There are better waterborne primers for providing opacity. One being BM Fresh Start, or Zinsser Drywall Primer. With that said, B-123 was very limited when I needed it the most. And that was for stain control.

It seems the Holy Grail for Stain Killers, is a waterborne that works. I believe the search continues.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I think the final nail in the coffin for me about 123 occurred about a month ago. Substantial kitchen reno, walls moved, significant drywall repair, etc. GC and I decided we'd just drive over everything with 123. He walked in after I'd done so and said "I thought you were going to prime everything rather than just spot prime?" It was brutal. The existing paint colours weren't anything concerning, but you could barely tell I'd rolled over it all with a 13mm sleeve.
> 
> 
> Even over raw drywall, you can see right through the stuff now seeing every single tape joint, every single screw.



I’ve used 123 quite a bit in my early days(still young though 27) and had adhesion issues, cover issues, and actually this year I used it on OSB and it didn’t cover any of the tannin or bleeds. 

I prefer SW multipurpose at the moment because it’s what I know that adheres well and covers minor tannin bleed. 


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I'll generally use GARDZ for problem surfaces like damaged drywall, plaster, or when a consistent sheen holdout is required on a finish. Otherwise, I think it runs too much, has a pretty strong odor, and probably not cost effective to apply on raw drywall for basic painting. I prefer Zinsser Bullseye 123 as a general raw drywall primer.


Gardz actually IS cost effective, cuz it goes a LONG way. you can get 600 ft per gallon. Also, it can be mixed with 123 and it works great too.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Ramus8T said:


> I’ve used 123 quite a bit in my early days(still young though 27) and had adhesion issues, cover issues, and actually this year I used it on OSB and it didn’t cover any of the tannin or bleeds.
> 
> I prefer SW multipurpose at the moment because it’s what I know that adheres well and covers minor tannin bleed.
> 
> ...



Seriously? You've got nothing but "early days" :biggrin:


I can't comment on how 123 may have changed just because I used to use it all of the time because it's basically a multi-purpose - so that's what's great about it. Int / Ext, multi-surface. But lately I've mostly been on the Freshstart for the same reasons which is why I can't comment on recent 123. But the multi-purpose is always a bonus. And, of course, how well a primer covers doesn't really say how well it's bonding and providing suitable conditions for top-coat. But - then there's speeding up the process so sometimes we do care about how well it covers.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I just use the bm k253. great stuff.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

superspec 253 for new drywall 'its got what plants crave'


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> superspec 253 for new drywall 'its got what plants crave'


i dont get it.?:confused1:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> i dont get it.?:confused1:


Watch Idiocracy and you'll get the reference. 

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Gardz actually IS cost effective, cuz it goes a LONG way. you can get 600 ft per gallon. Also, it can be mixed with 123 and it works great too.


I'm still not a big fan of the GARDZ odor. But it certainly has an important roll in the painting industry. I'm also not a big fan of mixing different products together. 

And although 123 and GARDZ share similar resins (styrenated Acrylic), the GARDZ is an emulsion (whatever that means) and the 123 isn't. (at least it doesn't say it is in the TDS. Nope. Not a big fan of mixing products.

I guess it's a way of inventing a trick or something. Maybe Zinsser should just make BullsGARDZ 123.1 and call it good. At least it would likely have a warranty.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Joe67 said:


> Seriously? You've got nothing but "early days" :biggrin:
> 
> 
> I can't comment on how 123 may have changed just because I used to use it all of the time because it's basically a multi-purpose - so that's what's great about it. Int / Ext, multi-surface. But lately I've mostly been on the Freshstart for the same reasons which is why I can't comment on recent 123. But the multi-purpose is always a bonus. And, of course, how well a primer covers doesn't really say how well it's bonding and providing suitable conditions for top-coat. But - then there's speeding up the process so sometimes we do care about how well it covers.



Lol, 4 or 5 years ago would be my “early days.”

I’m 27 now and have been painting since I was 18. 

I used 123 for the first time when I was about 22 or 23. 


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> superspec 253 for new drywall 'its got what plants crave'


Water?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think the peak age in painting is thirty five. 

Before thirty five, I was a recklessly competitive painter juiced up on caffeine and spraying my skill sets like a sawed off shot gun. 

By thirty five I was in total control and confident like a sniper, although I'd taken up smoking to calm the stress of maintaining my peak.

By forty two I became distressed at my diminishing speed and waning physicality. Caffeine was no longer the NO2 in my engine, but more like life support. 

By fifty two, I was like "WTF am I still painting?" Even fancy coffee couldn't satisfy me.

By sixty I'm like "You da man!" Coffee never tasted so good!

I guess the moral of the story is, I don't have to compete anymore. And I expect everyone younger than me to be painting circles around me. If not, there's something dramatically wrong.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

I used PPG Gripper from Home Depot the other day and was quite impressed. It dried fast over quad caulk and exposed siding. 


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Fman said:


> Water?



Plants crave electrolytes.


If you are liking 123 for new drywall then superspec253 would blow you away especially spraying.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I think the peak age in painting is thirty five.
> 
> Before thirty five, I was a recklessly competitive painter juiced up on caffeine and spraying my skill sets like a sawed off shot gun.
> 
> ...



LOL. Got that right. If you like writing you should do a memoir - An Ode to Olde Painters...

But you know, CA - the moderators might have to move you out to the DIY boards sometime soon. Word has it you're just a retired DIY guy now.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Joe67 said:


> LOL. Got that right. If you like writing you should do a memoir - An Ode to Olde Painters...
> 
> But you know, CA - the moderators might have to move you out to the DIY boards sometime soon. Word has it you're just a retired DIY guy now.



I sure hope not. He’s still a professional since he’s done it for so long. 


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Plants crave electrolytes.
> 
> 
> If you are liking 123 for new drywall then superspec253 would blow you away especially spraying.


Ah- so Gatorade for plants!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Joe67 said:


> LOL. Got that right. If you like writing you should do a memoir - An Ode to Olde Painters...
> 
> But you know, CA - the moderators might have to move you out to the DIY boards sometime soon. Word has it you're just a retired DIY guy now.



You're probably right. lol! 


I'm still in the work force, but not specifically painting. However, staring at my polished and oiled up taping knives the other night, I had to smile at how far they'd brought me.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I'm still not a big fan of the GARDZ odor. But it certainly has an important roll in the painting industry. I'm also not a big fan of mixing different products together.
> 
> And although 123 and GARDZ share similar resins (styrenated Acrylic), the GARDZ is an emulsion (whatever that means) and the 123 isn't. (at least it doesn't say it is in the TDS. Nope. Not a big fan of mixing products.
> 
> I guess it's a way of inventing a trick or something. Maybe Zinsser should just make BullsGARDZ 123.1 and call it good. At least it would likely have a warranty.


Us paperhangers mix 123 and gardz all the time. And its about 10 times more important to have a properly primed wall underneath paper than paint. WE wouldnt take the chance if it wasnt tried and true.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Draw-Tite anyone?*



Ramus8T said:


> Earlier this year I was curious as to how well Gardz would work as a straight primer over new drywall.
> 
> I was not dissatisfied but was wondering if anyone had done this before and had any unpleasant results from doing so.
> 
> ...


I love the way Gardz preps new drywall for painting. When used as directed, Gardz seals the new drywall and mud and evens out the porosity of both so that there is no flashing. When I say "used as directed" that means putting a 2nd coat over areas that are still dull. To accomplish this, I just roll a 2nd coat over everything rather than try to 2nd coat the dull spots as it is much faster and I don't have to worry about missing any dull spots. The paint then goes on like a dream as the water in the paint stays in the paint and does not get sucked into the ceiling or walls. This allows a much longer dry time and thus I can keep a wet edge far more easily than with with a primer, such as 123.

The problem with Gardz is that it is clear. On new work or skim coats it is best to coat the work with a white primer or sealer so that imperfections can easily be seen and corrected (pointing up) before top coating with paint.

According to DaArch (where did he go?), Gardz was re-engineered from Gardz by Zinsser after Scoth Paints refused to sell Draw-Tite to them. Draw-Tite comes in 4 flavors, one of which is white:

https://scotchpaint.com/drawtite/

I have never used Draw-Tite. I am surprised that out of all the painters on this forum, none have any experience with Draw-Tite to speak of....literally here in this forum. The closest dealer to me (in northern Chicago burbs) is in Wauwatosa, Wisconsin, at Steinkellner Deco Center 8834 W. North Ave Wauwatosa, WI 53226 1-(414)-778-0580. I just spoke with someone there and she said that Draw-Tite is the #1 product wallpaper hangers use under the wallpaper. Draw-Tite also makes a white pigmented sealer that might be good for pointing up on new drywall or skim coats. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has used Draw-Tite recently.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> I love the way Gardz preps new drywall for painting. When used as directed, Gardz seals the new drywall and mud and evens out the porosity of both so that there is no flashing. When I say "used as directed" that means putting a 2nd coat over areas that are still dull. To accomplish this, I just roll a 2nd coat over everything rather than try to 2nd coat the dull spots as it is much faster and I don't have to worry about missing any dull spots. The paint then goes on like a dream as the water in the paint stays in the paint and does not get sucked into the ceiling or walls. This allows a much longer dry time and thus I can keep a wet edge far more easily than with with a primer, such as 123.
> 
> The problem with Gardz is that it is clear. On new work or skim coats it is best to coat the work with a white primer or sealer so that imperfections can easily be seen and corrected (pointing up) before top coating with paint.
> 
> ...


You cant buy draw tite anywhere.

I got lucky and found three gallons at half off at my paint store. It was the draw tite "No Run." I really liked it. It didnt smell anywhere near as bad as gardz, but it had a strange, but good property to it. It had a consistancy similar to shaving cream, so you dip your roller or brush, and it wasnt drippy at all, BUT, when you put it on the wall and start working with it, it sort of liquified, like regular gardz. 

My paint store siad they could order it for me, but I'd have to buy 20 gallons at a time, and I just dont use that much of it. I mean, I use it often, but it goes so far, I only use about a half gallon per job. I recently asked them if the 20 gallon deal was still on, and they've been 'working on it' for three weeks now. I figure I could find a paperhanger to split it with...

BTW, I still adamantly maintain that theres no reason for a second coat. Even on raw skim coated mud, I put one good coat of gardz, and its good to go, even under really expensive wallpaper. Its like exterior waterborne stain. You want it to penetrate, but not leave a film. If anything, its better to reroll a wet area so it all penetrates.

Personally, I dont want my paint to stay wet longer... Call me crazy. I like it to dry, so I can either get to the second coat or cleanup faster. 

Just learn from my lesson, and dont spray it on walls without backrolling it...

Also, one of the reason I mix 123 in the gardz is so it comes out whitish. You can see defects better. It also gives it a little bit of build. The other problem Gardz is it doesnt have any build, and some wallpapers are so thin, you can see sanding marks through the paper.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Us paperhangers mix 123 and gardz all the time. And its about 10 times more important to have a properly primed wall underneath paper than paint. WE wouldnt take the chance if it wasnt tried and true.



I'm not disputing that it works. I just don't like to endorse DIY chemistry. Especially, when it isn't substantiated and warranted by the manufacturer. With that said, I've mixed latex paint with fast set, mixed primers with finishes before primer/finishes were popular and experimented with spray equipment. Some were successful, some were not. 


And as far as primer under wallcovering, I get it. I did quite a bit of hanging myself, and there was nothing worse than removing paper from unprimed walls, or having bubbles form over damaged drywall.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

On the subject of mix and match - classic painter stuff, I suppose. Virtually everything in my house has been painted with mis-tints off the clearance shelf. I mean, you know - why not? $5 a gal or so much of the time. I pass a mis-tint shelf and browse for things that aren't totally hideous and might come in handy some day. 



And I have liberally just created colors by mixing paints completely ignoring the various chemistries. An ugly dark-ish aquamarine blue that would look pretty good if it was a lot lighter? Sure - just dump some white something in it until you think it looks good! I've never actually had any trouble. Touched up my kitchen last year with some manner of wacky terra-cotta like color I'd mixed up willy-nilly about 10yrs ago. The mix was still just fine and touched up fine...



Of course, I'd never do that for a client. At my own house if it all goes south I don't care. Not only can I just fix it on my own time, but I can also ignore ugly things at my own house for very long periods of time. Now, just don't ask my wife about me ignoring things...


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

I just started using 123 in the last couple years on new drywall. I learned my lesson trying to apply BM 508 Ultra Flat on an huge ceiling of un-primed drywall on a hot day with horrific results. All I want the 123 to do is seal the un-primed drywall enough so that I can work with the top coat. Dries fast, cheap and does that job well enough.

If I need something better I use one of the Fresh Start products.

I've used that Sherwin Williams Multi Purpose a few times and liked it. It reminded me of 123 but sanded/powdered a little better.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I'm not disputing that it works. I just don't like to endorse DIY chemistry. Especially, when it isn't substantiated and warranted by the manufacturer. With that said, I've mixed latex paint with fast set, mixed primers with finishes before primer/finishes were popular and experimented with spray equipment. Some were successful, some were not.
> 
> 
> And as far as primer under wallcovering, I get it. I did quite a bit of hanging myself, and there was nothing worse than removing paper from unprimed walls, or having bubbles form over damaged drywall.


They do make Sheildz, which is zinnsers attempt at a 123 gardz mix, at least thats what it seems like. Most hangers dont really like it though. It doesnt harden up fast enough, or penetrate good enough. blue tape pulls it off the wall unless its dried overnight. With a gardz123 mix, an hour later its hard as a rock, and passes adhesion tests. The gardz really lets it penetrate into the wall.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Yesterday, I went to hang grasscloth in a dining room. Everything was supposed to be cleared out. They left a big table and rolled up the rug in the middle. I knew I was gonna trip over the damn rug too. Sure enough, I was cutting in the ceiling with gardz, went to move my ladder, tripped over the rug, and the gardz splashed out of my cut pot all over the wall, the table (covered) the floor, and all over my shorts. Luckily I keep a spare pair of pants and shorts in my van, and the homeowners are out of town, so I threw my shorts in their washing machine. I was so p*ssed, cuz I KNEW that rug was gonna get me...

FYI, I was by myself, so moving the table, and getting the rug out wasnt an option.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Woodco said:


> Yesterday, I went to hang grasscloth in a dining room. Everything was supposed to be cleared out. They left a big table and rolled up the rug in the middle. I knew I was gonna trip over the damn rug too. Sure enough, I was cutting in the ceiling with gardz, went to move my ladder, tripped over the rug, and the gardz splashed out of my cut pot all over the wall, the table (covered) the floor, and all over my shorts. Luckily I keep a spare pair of pants and shorts in my van, and the homeowners are out of town, so I threw my shorts in their washing machine. I was so p*ssed, cuz I KNEW that rug was gonna get me...
> 
> FYI, I was by myself, so moving the table, and getting the rug out wasnt an option.



I love when that happens!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Joe67 said:


> I love when that happens!


That wa a first for me. With Gardz anyway... Regular paint still would have splashed a little, but Gardz is like water. I had a pot hook on. It didnt fall off the ladder, the ladder knocked against the wall and it rained gardz...


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

I am with CA painter. I cant wait to somewhat hang up the brush next year. I gave up one 123 something like 20 years ago. Starting with when I sprayed it and turn my baCK IT WOULD RUN. Love gripper. Just recently had a gallon of Gardz do some funky. Like was lifting and mixing with maybe wallpaper glue. But in general I all is use it on paper strips


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