# Commercial bidding how long should it take



## seacleaner

Any one out there know how long it takes to hear back on bids, I get a little concerned I am fairly new to bidding commercial jobs and Iv'e sent out several bids this month on some large projects and some small but I haven't heard back on them. I know my pricing is good but it's not like residential where you get a answer back fairly quick. Any ideas??? beach painter NC


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## Schmidt & Co.

Could be weeks, or up to a year. Did they break ground yet?


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## Schmidt & Co.

I also ask them what timeframe they are looking to have the work done before I bid the job. Helps me decide if I even have the manpower, as I might already be committed. It also helps you answer your question a little.


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## RH

Follow up with a phone call and find out


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## TJ Paint

Never hurts to ask.

You might feel stupid, but that feeling is only temporary and fleeting.

After that, butter and the big time baby!


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## seacleaner

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Could be weeks, or up to a year. Did they break ground yet?


 Hey thanks I kinda thought that myself, some of these projects are large one is for the university here a research facility, some are for the military , a couple of smaller national chain stores fast food etc. I had to make the switch the residential work here in SE N.C. is slow at least for me it is.


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## seacleaner

TJ Paint said:


> Never hurts to ask.
> 
> You might feel stupid, but that feeling is only temporary and fleeting.
> 
> After that, butter and the big time baby!


 well for now its bologna and beans the residential work is very slow for me


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## seacleaner

TJ Paint said:


> Never hurts to ask.
> 
> You might feel stupid, but that feeling is only temporary and fleeting.
> 
> After that, butter and the big time baby!


 well for now its bologna and beans, the residential work is very slow for me here at the beach


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## seacleaner

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I also ask them what timeframe they are looking to have the work done before I bid the job. Helps me decide if I even have the manpower, as I might already be committed. It also helps you answer your question a little.


 well when work is slow it all sounds good at the time, but yea your right the GC gives you a deadline to submit but then you don't hear squat from them, so you can start looking down the road a little in order to schedule yourself my luck they will all come at me at once. that's what scares me


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## straight_lines

seacleaner where are you from?


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## ewingpainting.net

Has the GC actually been contracted the work. They may be just getting #'s from you to bid it themselves. Retail work I could guarantee they are bidding. Have you bid their work before?


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## RCP

Gabe, how many jobs do you bid where you don't have a relationship with the GC? I pretty much quit doing those unless I do.


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## ewingpainting.net

Yep, stopped that nonsense myself. They'll have you bidding your azz off, neglecting your real jobs. It's that carrot chase for sure. Bluebook is the biggest corporate of it. I will bid the one that will take the time to call me, go a few rounds if no results I'm out.


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## bodean614

*Commercial work*

I know here we have to bid 100 jobs to get 5-8 . not very good but still living. We bid our jobs to every GC usually around 10. seems that I am going up against 20 different painters all the time. Todays market 90% of the time LOW guy wins. I call or email all the Gc I bid to about a week later ask how my number looked , most seem to like me following up and are more likely to see you are interested anyway. the biggest key is to make sure all the bidding GC get your proposal.


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## straight_lines

bodean614 said:


> I know here we have to bid 100 jobs to get 5-8 . not very good but still living. We bid our jobs to every GC usually around 10. seems that I am going up against 20 different painters all the time. Todays market 90% of the time LOW guy wins. I call or email all the Gc I bid to about a week later ask how my number looked , most seem to like me following up and are more likely to see you are interested anyway.* the biggest key is to make sure all the bidding GC get your proposal*.


How do you do that? I am seeing some local stuff from BB I would consider bidding. I just don't want to waste time bidding with one GC.


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## bodean614

*Bidding GCs*

Well alot of the time they list more than one gc on BB, I also use the Builders Exchange which is real good about listing all GCs and last call the Architects and ask them if they have a bid list. If you really want to do more commercial work you need a goos estimator. I have grown my #1 client 30% each year Already at 500k in awards this year. I freelance estimate and think that its good for small companies because you dont have to employ a full time estimator. email me if you might be interested in my services.


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## ewingpainting.net

If you become a premier member at BB it will show you who the players are. Once you see how many GC's are biding, and considering each GC has at least 3 painters biding the job, you will realize you how slim your chance's are. 
20 GC biding-1 awarding contract to the apparent lowest bidder 
60 paint subs-1 awarding contract to the apparent lowest bidder of the awarding GC. 
Once you bid a job for these GC's, you will be on their bid list, they then will send you 3-5 bids a month. They only want to use the lowest #'s. They don't care about presentation, follow ups, professionalism, etc. Only who is the foolish lowest bidder. There is no loyalty to those GC's! Next job will be lowest bidder, not taking into account how well you serviced them. So these are relationships that are disposable, meaning if your awarded, don't take any ch!t from them, charge for any lil extra work, absolutely no free bees and do nothing without a change order. 

It a freaking rat race with no cheese at the finish line. It worse than bidding against low ball residential, in fact they are worse, because most are. Trying to get their "foot in the door" through wh oreing out their work. 

However you will find a good GC, 1 out of 100, less than 1%. You just have to deal with the 99 to get to that 1

Good Luck :laughing:


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## straight_lines

I pretty much experienced that last year. Sunk probably over 5k without a return, and that is only counting money paid to estimators. If I included my hours in that ugh it makes me sick to think about it.

I felt so discouraged trying to break into the commercial market, but like seacleaner the residential market here was horrible. So many guys working for just enough money to buy food and keep the rent up and lights on. 

I think I will just try and develop some relationships with the GCs. See how that goes, and hopefully find some good ones I could work with. I am totally out of my comfort zone, and the fact that I learned the winners were usually the guy who missed something makes it even worse.


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## seacleaner

bodean614 said:


> I know here we have to bid 100 jobs to get 5-8 . not very good but still living. We bid our jobs to every GC usually around 10. seems that I am going up against 20 different painters all the time. Todays market 90% of the time LOW guy wins. I call or email all the Gc I bid to about a week later ask how my number looked , most seem to like me following up and are more likely to see you are interested anyway. the biggest key is to make sure all the bidding GC get your proposal.


 Hey that's sounds like the track I'm on down here finding out who they all are seems to be the one key you need to have once you have the #s down. Right now if there are 6 bidding I will know about 4 of them, and yes I do follow up with them just getting them to get back to you is like pulling teeth oh well I guess I'll bid my ass off until one comes through, but it is a lot of work I try to do 3 or 4 a week. thanks


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## seacleaner

straight_lines said:


> How do you do that? I am seeing some local stuff from BB I would consider bidding. I just don't want to waste time bidding with one GC.


 Hey man I'm right here in your back yard, and to answer your question for every invitation I receive to bid I have to take the time to research other plan rooms etc... to see if other GCs are bidding that I don't know about. Then after I get my bid prepared I wait until a couple of hours before the due time and I do one more check. This increases the odds of covering most of the GCs bidding and it works as well as it get's. If there are 10 I will usually hit 6 or 8 and then all I do is change the heading on the proposal around, and so what if your not on there list, like the other man said they are only looking for the low # and you can believe if you come in low they wont give a double *%#^ if your on there list or not. money talks and..............


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## vermontpainter

Depressing.


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## seacleaner

sent you a messege


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## seacleaner

vermontpainter said:


> depressing.


 word !!


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## vermontpainter

Palabra. And stuff.


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## Harry

seacleaner said:


> Any one out there know how long it takes to hear back on bids, I get a little concerned I am fairly new to bidding commercial jobs and Iv'e sent out several bids this month on some large projects and some small but I haven't heard back on them. I know my pricing is good but it's not like residential where you get a answer back fairly quick. Any ideas??? beach painter NC


The first thing that you need to make sure of is that you bid to all the GC's who may have been bidding the project themselves. If you submitted your price to all GC's involved...the next thing to do is find out which one of them was awarded the project.

If there was only one GC involved or you bid to the owner or Construction Manager, you're all set.

Don't let any of these jobs get away because if you're out of sight, you may be out of mind. Don't assume that the GC received your bid or that he he didn't lose it.

When you do speak to the awarded GC, ask him how your price looked. He'll either tell you he's busy, hasn't gotten to it yet or he'll tell you where you stand.

Just remember...if the GC tells you that you're 5-10 percent high...you're probably where you should be.

Be careful of playing games with these guys as some of them are in it for commission and want to pocket your loss.

Don't be afraid to keep in touch, perhaps once a week with these guys. If your price is appealing, they're not going to throw your bid in the trash.

Lastly, don't be afraid to do your homework. You put the time in to perform the estimate, don't just have a laissez-faire attitude...it may be your loss...

Let me add...before you bid these jobs, inquire as to their start date. You need to plan for material changes if the job is in the future. Also, you want to keep track of this information because your goal is to bid 3 months ahead all the time.

Sometimes the project is just a preliminary bid (they're just looking for budget pricing) but if you like the job and have the time, bid it because if not, you may not be invited to bid the real thing...


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## ewingpainting.net

vermontpainter said:


> Depressing.


Like being in a slow-motion car crash


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## Harry

bodean614 said:


> I know here we have to bid 100 jobs to get 5-8 . not very good but still living. We bid our jobs to every GC usually around 10. seems that I am going up against 20 different painters all the time. Todays market 90% of the time LOW guy wins. I call or email all the Gc I bid to about a week later ask how my number looked , most seem to like me following up and are more likely to see you are interested anyway. the biggest key is to make sure all the bidding GC get your proposal.



Recipe for disaster if those odds aren't changed...


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## Harry

straight_lines said:


> I pretty much experienced that last year. Sunk probably over 5k without a return, and that is only counting money paid to estimators. If I included my hours in that ugh it makes me sick to think about it.
> 
> I felt so discouraged trying to break into the commercial market, but like seacleaner the residential market here was horrible. So many guys working for just enough money to buy food and keep the rent up and lights on.
> 
> I think I will just try and develop some relationships with the GCs. See how that goes, and hopefully find some good ones I could work with. I am totally out of my comfort zone, and the fact that I learned the winners were usually the guy who missed something makes it even worse.


Here's the deal on hiring freelance estimators.
Most guys think that hiring an estimator here and there will pay off. Truth is, it won't...or you MIGHT get lucky.

Hiring a freelance estimator takes money and commitment. The estimator has to perform magic by being high and low at the same time...high to make a profit, low to win the job...

With all due respect, the 5k that you spent on an estimator was probably "beat the odds" money because no estimator can perform miracles for 5k.


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## Harry

BTW...in regards to bidding commercial...

You may have a list of 10 GC's but realize that 2 of them are bums...what do you do?

You've got three choices, don't bid the job or bid the job with "pita premiums" or bid the job to the bad GC's for the same price.

We don't want to work with all of the GC's, just the good ones but sometimes when siht hits the fan, we've got to do or die...and MAYBE, doing that job with "pita premiums" is worth it.

Naturally, the odds of winning decrease using the "pita premiums" method but the jobs that you are awarded usually end up as winners.


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## ewingpainting.net

Harry said:


> BTW...in regards to bidding commercial...
> 
> You may have a list of 10 GC's but realize that *9* of them are bums...what do you do?
> .
> .............


Fixed it for ya, less than 1% of those GC's in that market are good, worth repeat business, and 10% of the good GC's are outstanding.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> Fixed it for ya, less than 1% of those GC's in that market are good, worth repeat business, and 10% of the good GC's are outstanding.


Delete that misquote please...


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## Harry

I have never seen a commercial market where 90% of the GC's are bums.
Where are you getting this from?


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## ewingpainting.net

From years of experience with GC's. I have performed work for global to national to home grown mom and pop GC's. Those GC's that bid that market of commercial are the absolute worse. They are the most ruthless breed of GC's I have ever seen or dealt with. If you are unfortunate to be awarded a job, your 1st thought should be "what did I miss" because you only got the job because A. The GC was low bid, B. You were the GC's low bid. Then hold you to it. They truly are the cowered of the GC market. Not to mention the time you waist bidding on dead jobs. If you did 5 of those GC's you'd be looking at 10-15 bids a week. You will win 1 out of a 100 bids, it can be as low as a $3000 job. So 15- 25 hours a week and you get a whopping 3k job. Worthless.


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## straight_lines

Harry said:


> Here's the deal on hiring freelance estimators.
> Most guys think that hiring an estimator here and there will pay off. Truth is, it won't...or you MIGHT get lucky.
> 
> Hiring a freelance estimator takes money and commitment. The estimator has to perform magic by being high and low at the same time...high to make a profit, low to win the job...
> 
> With all due respect, the 5k that you spent on an estimator was probably "beat the odds" money because no estimator can perform miracles for 5k.


If I had the time and money to invest I would have taken your class and done all my own estimates. Like I said it was a learning experience for me. I don't think I want to play the game, I really don't like the rules. 

I just don't have the resources and I refuse to bid just to sub it out to illegals. Which is what I was seeing.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> From years of experience with GC's. I have performed work for global to national to home grown mom and pop GC's. Those GC's that bid that market of commercial are the absolute worse. They are the most ruthless breed of GC's I have ever seen or dealt with. If you are unfortunate to be awarded a job, your 1st thought should be "what did I miss" because you only got the job because A. The GC was low bid, B. You were the GC's low bid. Then hold you to it. They truly are the cowered of the GC market. Not to mention the time you waist bidding on dead jobs. If you did 5 of those GC's you'd be looking at 10-15 bids a week. You will win 1 out of a 100 bids, it can be as low as a $3000 job. So 15- 25 hours a week and you get a whopping 3k job. Worthless.


If you believe that it is that way, no matter what...you're right, lol.

Come on now, be serious. If the game was like that, I wouldn't be in it. There are plenty of jobs for plenty of money out there.

That excuse may have help water for a short time but everyone I know is bidding and working...

I work on retainer for a good amount of contractors and if they felt that they were throwing bad after bad, they wouldn't do it.

I can put you in touch with people who will tell you otherwise also...


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## ewingpainting.net

Harry, I have plenty experience in this, I don't need any more experience. I'm interested in running a efficient profitable business. You make your salary off business owners that are paint contractors. I once worked for a large paint company, I practically ran the whole thing, at least I thought I did, until I started my own business. It's a HELL of a deference. My time, my money. That all the difference in the world when its was employer time employers money. Don't be offended by this. If you are so knowledgeable, why do you put you knowledge and balls on the table and start your own business. It's a different story when your looking at it from a business owners point of view. Because in the end, it's our balls that hanging out there, not yours. 

There is good money to make with that market, I'm saying, you don't just jump in there, most companies that do well in that market have been it for years, built relationships, know the game. When new PC comes along and says "I want to do commercial". Their only way to compete is price. So they put everything at risk. Harry, I think you offer good advise, however I think you need a HUGE disclaimer in your sig. 
it's easy to sit where you are and give the advise you give. It's another story when joe the painter started his own business, and gets rapped in that market. 

Lol.


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## vermontpainter

Like Gabe, I caution guys about leaping into the nc market. Sometimes they are lured by what they perceive to be large numbers. Those numbers are not a two edged sword to the unequipped company, they are a one edged sword that only cuts against them. My advice is always to start with small projects. Remods and additions, before going in for the 10k sf home. I would think same would apply in commercial to an extent. Do a dentist office or law office, before bidding a wal mart. 

You wouldn't believe how many guys jump on $100k worth of work, well before they realize that it will cost them $110k to do. 

I also am not a believer in getting my number out with every contractor who is bidding. I prefer relationships that are built slowly and characterized by trust, and those are the guys I bid with. They are also the guys who get the jobs. The better contractors are not looking for the lowest price, and they are not selling at the lowest price. There is still alot to be said for "best fit." build relationships with the good contractors. They are hard to please, but willing to pay well for what they want. I like this business because it is total put up or shut up. The thing I enjoy the most is working with contractors to complete large projejcts. Believe me, they really don't understand how our business works, and what a good paint contracting business should look like, and that is because there are so few around. Show them. Show them the whole package, business sense and quality, and pricing templates and precedents become irrelevant. 

This isn't really a whose right whose wrong issue. I just hate seeing guys jump into the deep end of a pool that they haven't dangled their feet in much. I've seen it happen all too much. I've even seen contractors turn guys away because their number was just too low, or their estimating was not good enough to inspire confidence.


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## ewingpainting.net

That's what worries me to Scott, a great painter does great on some repaint work. Then next he's thinking I can go bigger, and I want more NOW! I went all in when I started. I freaked out everyone around me. Believe me I had a few close calls that could have fried me. I've dealt with and performed on enough of those job to know how to wiggle out of it. Thank God! 

Performing the work is the easiest thing of the whole project. Cash flow is the biggest problem. I would suggest to build a slow simmering business. I've scaled back a bit and am reviewing my goals I want for my business and life. It down to, having a life that can support my business and a business that can support my life.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> Harry, I have plenty experience in this, I don't need any more experience. I'm interested in running a efficient profitable business. You make your salary off business owners that are paint contractors. I once worked for a large paint company, I practically ran the whole thing, at least I thought I did, until I started my own business. It's a HELL of a deference. My time, my money. That all the difference in the world when its was employer time employers money. Don't be offended by this. If you are so knowledgeable, why do you put you knowledge and balls on the table and start your own business. It's a different story when your looking at it from a business owners point of view. Because in the end, it's our balls that hanging out there, not yours.
> 
> There is good money to make with that market, I'm saying, you don't just jump in there, most companies that do well in that market have been it for years, built relationships, know the game. When new PC comes along and says "I want to do commercial". Their only way to compete is price. So they put everything at risk. Harry, I think you offer good advise, however I think you need a HUGE disclaimer in your sig.
> it's easy to sit where you are and give the advise you give. It's another story when joe the painter started his own business, and gets rapped in that market.
> 
> Lol.


Where have you been?
I'm a 4th generation painter.
I walk the walk, talk the talk. I've done every damn thing that you and everyone here has. I've painted, stained, sprayed, hung all types of vinyl. I've done residential, commercial and industrial.

Why would I want to go back to painting when I love what I do???

Listen, if you want to test me, give me a call and we'll make a go of it. I enjoy talking to other contractors...


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> That's what worries me to Scott, a great painter does great on some repaint work. Then next he's thinking I can go bigger, and I want more NOW! I went all in when I started. I freaked out everyone around me. Believe me I had a few close calls that could have fried me. I've dealt with and performed on enough of those job to know how to wiggle out of it. Thank God!
> 
> Performing the work is the easiest thing of the whole project. Cash flow is the biggest problem. I would suggest to build a slow simmering business. I've scaled back a bit and am reviewing my goals I want for my business and life. It down to, having a life that can support my business and a business that can support my life.


It's obvious that there are requirements to starting and maintaining any business and cash flow is king.

I think that steady growth of 5% per year is not embarrassing or dangerous. But more than 20% may be detrimental.


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## ewingpainting.net

Harry said:


> Where have you been?
> I'm a 4th generation painter.
> I walk the walk, talk the talk. I've done every damn thing that you and everyone here has. I've painted, stained, sprayed, hung all types of vinyl. I've done residential, commercial and industrial.
> 
> Why would I want to go back to painting when I love what I do???
> 
> Listen, if you want to test me, give me a call and we'll make a go of it. I enjoy talking to other contractors...


Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.


We ran up to 40 men in our family business...

But let's get back to the advice thing. if you feel that someone can't offer you advice without having swung a brush, you're sadly mistaken and probably should change you're thinking.

When I came on these boards, I touted my family's experiences on them and used to think that there was no way that someone could tell me how to run my business if they never swung a brush...I was wrong.

Running a business has nothing to do with swinging a brush...apples and oranges.

As far as being on someone else's dime...ANYONE and I mean ANYONE who knows of me or my family knows that we've always gone way beyond the call of duty. We made many people rich and sunk no one. It's not about taking, fella, it's about giving...and we always give more than what was paid for...that's what we do.

You don't paint for 103 years and estimate for 90 by accident...


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## ewingpainting.net

Harry, I never said someone can't run a business if they never slapped paint on a surface. I know a few cats like such myself. The fact you come from a generation of painters doesn't impress me much, its interesting and cool, but not impressive. Some on this very board can make that claim, and they embarrass the industry. Yet their are 1st gen painters that blow them away. I grew up under and learned under a 2nd gen painter. Does that mean I have more or less experience? No, I don't discount your experience, I think it can be valuable to these boards, your advise is insightful. Concerning these 2 threads, I just disagree with your methods for a owner operator small repaint business, it could be catastrophic to them.


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## Bender

ewingpainting.net said:


> Plain and simple, have you owned and operated a business? Or have you always been a employee, sub or whatever you want to call it (depend on other PC for your check). I only ask cause I think it play's a huge part in your advise. Whether you agree or not, being a estimator on someone else's dime is far easier than estimating on your own dime, as time and money is more of an issue. I believe you give solid advise Harry, however what you are up against compares very little to what a business owner is up against. I am not doubting your experience in your areas, I believe you can sling a brush, as well as being a good estimator. I just think your role far differs from role of owning, managing, performing on the job and the official duties.


I don't agree with that. Being a bad estimator is no different then being a bad painter. You run out of customers. You have to have a mad love of an industry (and have earned a lot of respect) to stay in it that long.


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## ewingpainting.net

Who said anything about being a bad estimator? What I'm disagreeing with is the method for a certain business model. I'm not questioning his experience or saying he is good or bad at all.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> Harry, I never said someone can't run a business if they never slapped paint on a surface. I know a few cats like such myself. The fact you come from a generation of painters doesn't impress me much, its interesting and cool, but not impressive. Some on this very board can make that claim, and they embarrass the industry. Yet their are 1st gen painters that blow them away. I grew up under and learned under a 2nd gen painter. Does that mean I have more or less experience? No, I don't discount your experience, I think it can be valuable to these boards, your advise is insightful. Concerning these 2 threads, I just disagree with your methods for a owner operator small repaint business, it could be catastrophic to them.



You're a hoot...


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> Who said anything about being a bad estimator? What I'm disagreeing with is the method for a certain business model. I'm not questioning his experience or saying he is good or bad at all.


First off Ewing, I have no clue as to what you describe as a "business model". I don't believe I've ever thrown that out. I work with all sorts of companies who have numerous types of business models.

I'm not just an estimator. I take people like you and help them put more food on their table or take an extra vacation now and then. I help contractors become better contractors.

I also could care less what your thought regarding what I've done in my life, are, lol. I'm here simply to help...remember that. If you aren't interested, that's fine but unless you want to call me to see what the deal is, don't keep banging away at the keyboard with your doubts.

For christ sake, every friggin two weeks, one of you guys does the same damn thing...and most of you could use the help!

I've "done it all" man and if you need any help, call me...


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## ewingpainting.net

I'm not asking for your help, nor am I wanting you to prove yourself. I just questioned your methods you offered to a business specific business model. I find it fascinating you think "most of us need YOUR help" lol 

Fact is the method you advised, at one time you had to pay big bucks for. Why! Cause it was designed for mid to large size contractors. Contractors that could handle it, have 2-6 estimators on payroll, each plugging 2-3 bids a day, ranging from 50-500 employees. A owner operator can not compete with that other than price. No biggy Harry. Carry on.


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> I'm not asking for your help, nor am I wanting you to prove yourself. I just questioned your methods you offered to a business specific business model. I find it fascinating you think "most of us need YOUR help" lol
> 
> Fact is the method you advised, at one time you had to pay big bucks for. Why! Cause it was designed for mid to large size contractors. Contractors that could handle it, have 2-6 estimators on payroll, each plugging 2-3 bids a day, ranging from 50-500 employees. A owner operator can not compete with that other than price. No biggy Harry. Carry on.


What I'm saying is...if you disagree, move on. There's no need to try to discredit anyone in the process.

You tell me what the heck you're talking about and I'll answer to it. At this moment, it's still not clear. I've offered a lot of information here...clue me in please.

If you don't need help that's fine but others do and my ideas do work and I offer them for free, here.

Again, clue me in so I can rebut your post...


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## ewingpainting.net

No discredit. I have said many times, I appreciate your post. 
Thanks for your info. you share here. I can disagree with you, as disagreement is a part of discussion 

Moving on now
Gabe


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> No discredit. I have said many times, I appreciate your post.
> Thanks for your info. you share here. I can disagree with you, as disagreement is a part of discussion
> 
> Moving on now
> Gabe


I agree that disagreeing is okay, lol.

I'm asking you...what exactly are you disagreeing on?


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## RCP

OMG, if you two knuckleheads start disagreeing about disagreeing I'm gonna thump you both!:laughing:


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## ewingpainting.net

Harry said:


> I agree that disagreeing is okay, lol.
> 
> I'm asking you...what exactly are you disagreeing on?


I think this has exhausted itself. I already posted it 3 or 4 time. 
As I said moving on.....


RCP said:


> OMG, if you two knuckleheads start disagreeing about disagreeing I'm gonna thump you both!:laughing:


What if I'm starting to agree now

:lol:


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## Harry

ewingpainting.net said:


> I think this has exhausted itself. I already posted it 3 or 4 time.
> As I said moving on.....
> 
> 
> What if I'm starting to agree now
> 
> :lol:


So...ya won't post exactly what you disagree about but you definitely disagree?

You're alright man...:thumbsup:

:thumbup:


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## ewingpainting.net

:wallbash: I did!

For someone that doesn't want to be pounding on your keyboard, there seem so be a whole lot of pounding going on.


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## Ultimate

EWP I get the point that it is harder for the money man due to the bottom line being on his/her shoulders alone. I think Harry probably understands that as well. It is like having an accountant trying to operate a paint business. One of those would rather finger paint an entire house so he doesn't have to pay for a brush. They don't understand the man hours saved by spraying v/s brushing. All they know is it costs money to buy that!!!! ARGH! 

It is still good to receive the input even though we, the burden takers, ultimately make the day to day decisions based upon facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about. Like relationships with GC's and building long term relationships with the one in a million good ones. Whatever the next move is based upon unique facts in the playing field that we know about with that specific piece in the game of chess. So the input is still good nonetheless. I am pretty sure Harry realizes that as well. I assume someone as successful as you realizes that from your experience. Just assuming this but......There are so many strategies in The Art of War it is good to have options. I want to be as big as you tomorrow. It would mean sure failure. I came to that realization again in this thread.

Anyway thanks for debating with each other I learned me some things.


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## Harry

FatherandSonPainting said:


> EWP I get the point that it is harder for the money man due to the bottom line being on his/her shoulders alone. I think Harry probably understands that as well. It is like having an accountant trying to operate a paint business. One of those would rather finger paint an entire house so he doesn't have to pay for a brush. They don't understand the man hours saved by spraying v/s brushing. All they know is it costs money to buy that!!!! ARGH!
> 
> It is still good to receive the input even though we, the burden takers, ultimately make the day to day decisions based upon facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about. Like relationships with GC's and building long term relationships with the one in a million good ones. Whatever the next move is based upon unique facts in the playing field that we know about with that specific piece in the game of chess. So the input is still good nonetheless. I am pretty sure Harry realizes that as well. I assume someone as successful as you realizes that from your experience. Just assuming this but......There are so many strategies in The Art of War it is good to have options. I want to be as big as you tomorrow. It would mean sure failure. I came to that realization again in this thread.
> 
> Anyway thanks for debating with each other I learned me some things.


There is no debate if the other side refuses to state their case when asked politely, 3 or more times.

I fluffed Ewing off because RCP had to butt in and call people knuckleheads...not too cool since "we ain't all from yer town" 

You said... "facts that the estimator or accountant don't know about."

I challenge you or anyone to call me on that. I guarantee that there is very little that you could approach me on regarding the painting business that I don't have or had my hands in.

I was spraying open joist ceilings when I was 15. I was estimating when I was 17.

I'll be 50 at the end of August...


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## PatsPainting

Harry said:


> You're a hoot...



Harry - Please keep the name calling to a minimum. This is a professional place where we try to keep that type of shenanigans to the DIY forums.

Thank you

Pat


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## Harry

PatsPainting said:


> Harry - Please keep the name calling to a minimum. This is a professional place where we try to keep that type of shenanigans to the DIY forums.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Pat


Pat, if you read up you'll find that my reference to "a hoot" means that someone is funny.

If you have a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you...


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## Ultimate

Harry I was seeing both of your positions not questioning your talents. 

Although.

You don't know my specific positions with my banker this or next week like I do. You don't know my competitors comings or goings in my specific area like I do. You don't know my suppliers inner workings in management and their relationships with my competitors like I do. My relations with my customers and my competitions specific actions in attempting to aquire them as well as mine in trying to aquire theirs. etc..... You don't know my next move because I am not even completely sure what it is. The unexpected opportunity may or may not present itself and my next move is based upon those and many other factors. 

I myself don't doubt your capabilities and talents. The 'facts' I am speaking of relate to certain aforementioned unique inside workings, not your understanding of the business in general. I would like to one day be able to afford your services. Come stay at my house for a month. Get to know the market here. Advise me all you want. Yea right.... I can't afford you for a day. 

I think for me or anyone to brush off your advice would be foolish. I think for anyone to _blindly_ accept and risk their livliehood based upon it would be foolish as well. I think EWP is just saying it's a little more stressful when it's his own money involved. Surely you understand that having been there yourself. I understand that and agree as well. 

I wasn't proposing a challenge Harry. Just butting in a conversation with two seemingly impressively experienced and knowledgeable people seeing if I can fit in. hahaha Different people can view the same thing differently, but I interpreted Ewing as just saying what I said in my second paragraph of this post. Except for the 'business model' thing. That is my understanding anyway. 

Since presenting some of your past accomplishments as a contractor I think it is safe to say you understand the stresses of risking your own money. 

I like boxing. A lot. The trainer is every bit as vested as the boxer to win the match. Each has their own way of feeling the pain in loss as well as sharing the goodness of victory. Even though the trainer knows the right things to do and ways to make his fighter win, the fighter is still the one in the ring taking body shots. Both of their reputations are just as important. The trainer may have been in the ring in days before but he isn't at that moment going through the same mental stresses that affect decisions made by the fighter during the fight. The fighter takes the training, goes in the ring and wins or loses. ---- If the PC get's KO'd, his family suffers. If the PC wins he takes care of his family. Either way the trainer(teacher) has a job to go to tomorrow. 

I think that explains it somewhat.

Man I love teachers. I was complimenting you earlier. A teacher with field experience is even better. Teach me mister. How do I make my business fruitful for my family? 

With that in mind, you can't outpaint me. Just sayin. :no:


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## aaron61

PatsPainting said:


> Harry - Please keep the name calling to a minimum. This is a professional place where we try to keep that type of shenanigans to the DIY forums.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Pat


I think that was sarcasm as to your level of restraint.


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## tcharby

Give me a call. I can only tell you what has worked for me.
720-384-3746


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## Blueprint

I'm certainly sorry I missed out on this thread ....


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