# Another deck stain question (Sansin?)



## Dario (Aug 10, 2017)

Any experience with the Sansin water based stains? I have about 1000 sf of deck to do + rails. Part of the deck is South facing and gets beaten with rain for 8 months, then baked in the sun, and has heavy food traffic all year.

I found out the hard way that Sikkens is not the same as it used to be. The home owner wants something they can re-apply every year or as needed without stripping. I don't know of an oil stain that can be layered. 

The paint store is pushing Sansin on me. The store is somewhat confusing and so is the Sansin web site. Not clear at all which products need a clear sealer after being applied and which don't. 

Any experience? I'd like to use a water-based stain that can easily be cleaned and re-applied annually for maintenance. Will the Sansin water-based stains do this? Any comments on durability or other issues? 

If if I use oil it'll likely be Armstrong Clark. I had good experience last time I used it and it's available locally.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Deck Magazine conducted a stain shootout and Sansin Dec was the runner up. Here's a link to the article:
http://www.deckmagazine.com/design-construction/decking/the-great-stain-shoot-out-the-sequel_o

What material is the decking?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm still a little wary of the water based stains capability to be just "recoated" every year or two. I think that will cause it to start building a film which will start to fail. Unless it is stripped and recoated i am not a big fan of the maintenance possibilities of waterbased stains. I myself would go with an Oil based simply because they can be recoated with less prep every couple of years. My last deck was stained every two years with a cheap linseed oil based redwood stain and it lasted 37 years before it became so unsound it had to be replaced, and it was just untreated pine. The deck i have now i did with a water clean up oil stain 10 years ago, which I've re-coated twice, but now i really feel it needs to be stripped before i recoat it again. If i had used a true oil based stain i could probably just recoat it without stripping it.

To some painting contractors this may seem obvious, but the actual maintenance of the waterbased stains is something that most retailers and stain manufacturers never mention. It does take more effort to do correctly for the most part than the true alkyd based stains do.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PAC, you mentioned a "water cleanup oil stain". Was that CWF?


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## Dario (Aug 10, 2017)

PNW Painter said:


> Deck Magazine conducted a stain shootout and Sansin Dec was the runner up.
> 
> What material is the decking?


Will take a look. Material is cedar. Some 12 years old, some newer. Older stuff has been stripped and sanded. All of it will get light sanding and acid treatment. 



PACman said:


> I'm still a little wary of the water based stains capability to be just "recoated" every year or two. I think that will cause it to start building a film which will start to fail. Unless it is stripped and recoated i am not a big fan of the maintenance possibilities of waterbased stains. I myself would go with an Oil based simply because they can be recoated with less prep every couple of years. My last deck was stained every two years with a cheap linseed oil based redwood stain and it lasted 37 years before it became so unsound it had to be replaced, and it was just untreated pine. The deck i have now i did with a water clean up oil stain 10 years ago, which I've re-coated twice, but now i really feel it needs to be stripped before i recoat it again. If i had used a true oil based stain i could probably just recoat it without stripping it.


Good points and I agree. Seems like a lot of marketing. I considered linseed oil. Only issue I can see is that I'd need to stain first (they want some darkening) and there's no UV protection. Otherwise linseed seems like a great idea. Clean and re-apply as needed.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Penofin


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## Dario (Aug 10, 2017)

Based on the Deck Magazine testing I'd like to try Cutek but it's not available locally. Sunfrog, Olympic, Armstrong-Clark, and Sansin are the other recommended products and seem to be available locally. (Assume Olympic is at big box stores - maybe this is a pro-grade product they don't carry.) 

Anybody used the Sunfrog stuff?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> PAC, you mentioned a "water cleanup oil stain". Was that CWF?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. It was PPG sunproof. Which they changed since then!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Dario said:


> Based on the Deck Magazine testing I'd like to try Cutek but it's not available locally. Sunfrog, Olympic, Armstrong-Clark, and Sansin are the other recommended products and seem to be available locally. (Assume Olympic is at big box stores - maybe this is a pro-grade product they don't carry.)
> 
> Anybody used the Sunfrog stuff?


I would myself recommend the Armstrong-Clark as they are true linseed oil based penetrating stains. No need for a clear coat. In fact you really don't want to put a clear coat on exterior wood. There are some systems that use a clear, but unless you use those entire systems i wouldn't recommend a clear over stain. Any quality exterior stain, such as the armstrong-clark, will not need a clear. Clear is just to give a gloss look, and they typically wear off pretty quickly. It can be done, but that would create an every year strip and re-finish maintenance requirement to keep it looking good.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Oh and as far as Olympic? It's a PPG product, meant to be sold through discount DIY box stores and Walmart. Do the math.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It's funny, but the homeowner next door is refinishing her two small decks and asked for my advice. I told her that she needs to strip or sand the deck to raw. I said the finish wasn't as important as the prep. My recommendation was Storm Systems or Daly's.

"Wow, that sounds like a lot of work." She said. Later she told me she went to the store and the Storm Systems rep happened to be at the store when she was there. His advice was to sand with 80 grit to raw. 

We'll see how long she last since she's using a small quarter sheet sander.


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## Dario (Aug 10, 2017)

PACman said:


> I would myself recommend the Armstrong-Clark as they are true linseed oil based penetrating stains. No need for a clear coat. In fact you really don't want to put a clear coat on exterior wood. There are some systems that use a clear, but unless you use those entire systems i wouldn't recommend a clear over stain.


Yeah... had this discussion in the paint store. They were trying to tell me that Sansin clear over their stain would be the most durable because it can easily be layered. With foot traffic and weather I imagine clear stuff peeling off. 



PNW Painter said:


> "Wow, that sounds like a lot of work." She said. Later she told me she went to the store and the Storm Systems rep happened to be at the store when she was there. His advice was to sand with 80 grit to raw.
> 
> We'll see how long she last since she's using a small quarter sheet sander.


Poor thing with that small sander. Her hand is going to vibrate off. Like the rest of us she's likely not thrilled about the sanding. Would really like to not have to strip every two years. Not seeing a reasonable way around this.

Update: I read and get the Penofin reference above. For ease of reapplication it looks like the one to beat. The question is if it will retain color through 8 months of rain?


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Dario said:


> Yeah... had this discussion in the paint store. They were trying to tell me that Sansin clear over their stain would be the most durable because it can easily be layered. With foot traffic and weather I imagine clear stuff peeling off.
> 
> 
> Poor thing with that small sander. Her hand is going to vibrate off. Like the rest of us she's likely not thrilled about the sanding. Would really like to not have to strip every two years. Not seeing a reasonable way around this.
> ...


It seems to hold up in the Pacific northwest pretty well.....we get A LOT A RAIN!

Just follow the directions. I just finished an ipe deck today....ill go throw another coat on it (hopefully) in a couple weeks but definitely in the spring. Then it's just a matter of clean it and recoat it....might need a little more cleaning as time matches on, but that's more dependant on whether or not the ho follows the maintenance schedule not the quality of the product itself. WEAR GLOVES.
I forgot to take after pics...ill do that tomorrow....


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Dario said:


> Poor thing with that small sander. Her hand is going to vibrate off. Like the rest of us she's likely not thrilled about the sanding. Would really like to not have to strip every two years. Not seeing a reasonable way around this.



I felt kinda bad because my Festool setup was sitting about 5ft from where she was working and I wasn't using it at the time. Unfortunately, I've learned the hard way that loaning tools often ends with tools being damaged, or not acting like they previously did.



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## Dario (Aug 10, 2017)

Late reply to this... I ended up using Sansin DEC (water based and requires two coats). I sanded the deck with 60 grit and applied it. Went on very well. I used a brush for both coats. Probably could have used a pad for the 2nd coat. My from deck is mostly stairs, so a lot of 8' wide risers and I was worried about drips. Brush worked well. 

Has a nice satin finish to it that I prefer to oil-based stains. So far, it looks great and I like it. Will see how it holds up. 

I used DEC for two reasons: I waited too long - rain was approaching and temps had dropped. Was concerned that oil wouldn't be dry in before rain hit it. Also am hoping I can put on a new coat every year or two without stripping - will have to see. 

So far so good. I went with the pre-mixed Gold Rush color. Much more orangy on my deck than expected after the 2nd coat. Wife doesn't hate it, so that's a win. Will try to go with something more reddish than orangy on the back deck in the spring. 

Other downside is the cost, which is significant relative to some of the oil based stains. If it does what it says, then it'll be well worth it.


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## ortiz23 (Aug 31, 2009)

I have been using it this year for the first time as well. Heard it's one of the best and I am trying to "go green" and not leave an imprint on the environment by using waterborne products where at all possible. Sure industrial and some commercial still require certain oils/solvent based etc products. 
So I am in the same predicament as yourself. We will have to monitor and see how the coatings with Sansin hold up over time. I have a similar deck to you -stripped it, sanded, 2 coats DEC. Also did a window trim oil conversion job with Sansin SDF and colour matched it. I liked the product also but the octagon shaped big deck was a tough couple of coats in the heat with some wind by myself. Fast as i could go no stopping for a few hours straight.

I do believe in the sansin products offered but I guess farther time will be the ultimate teller over time. I am also in the northwest (BC, Canada) where its hot and fairly dry in summer and can get cold in the winter. All four seasons here. Best of luck with your coatings.


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## MendocinoPaint (Mar 25, 2018)

I live in a weather heavy area where we get heavy rains and some snow in winter and 100° plus temps in summer. Ive used both water based and oil based stains on cedar. So far the winner for me has been sickens semi transparent stain. Maintenence is tsp wash and thin recoat


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

MendocinoPaint said:


> I live in a weather heavy area where we get heavy rains and some snow in winter and 100° plus temps in summer. Ive used both water based and oil based stains on cedar. So far the winner for me has been sickens semi transparent stain. Maintenence is tsp wash and thin recoat


worth noting proluxe/ppg/sikkens semi transparent is now a water based product. Used to be a great product now not so sure...

I had the sunfrog rep in my store last week. worst sales pitch ever. Same with sansin his sales pitch was to *show me a picture on his phone* how there stain penetrates a plain sheet of paper but arborcoat will not! Of course they do not bring any samples to try


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> worth noting proluxe/ppg/sikkens semi transparent is now a water based product. Used to be a great product now not so sure...
> 
> I had the sunfrog rep in my store last week. worst sales pitch ever. Same with sansin his sales pitch was to *show me a picture on his phone* how there stain penetrates a plain sheet of paper but arborcoat will not! Of course they do not bring any samples to try


seriously? people are still using that bit?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> seriously? people are still using that bit?


Got to love when someone walks into your store and says your product is ****. His main reason to stop in was that they are selling direct to one of the largest contractors in town. Well if they are selling direct why do I need to invest to bring their product in?

But Hey it was better than the sunfrog pitch. Guy walked in and _threw_ a product brochure on my counter. Didn't bring any samples, didn't even really try to sell me the product.. just told me that it exists. And of course their main feature of his pitch is a printout of that deckmagazine article, which is dubious at best.

OH and he yelled "who are you looking at!" to my BM rep who was sitting at my counter. It was beautiful :vs_OMG:

Best sales pitch I have seen is from the ReadySeal rep. Its a little gimmicky but at least they let you demo some product.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I sell the Storm Stains, so i don't get a lot of stupid sales pitches. Just send me some samples and don't even bother with the sales pitch.


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