# smoke damage



## ccpainting (Oct 17, 2007)

anybody ever fix some light smoke damage? there is a room right next to the kitchen(that had the small fire) with a 30 foot ceiling and there is smoke particles(black)cobwebs,but the ceiling doesn't look brown. would you prime the whole thing or just paint it? I am going to prime the whole kitchen because it looks pretty bad,but the great room only has smoke damage i can see right at the dorrway from the kitchen. what would any of you do?


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Wash the ceiling and apply a oil stain blocking primer.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Are you rolling or spraying?

In my experience, if your spraying, you don't need to do anything but spray it with your choice of paint. If your rolling it, it may need a couple coats, but that smoke damage will not come through if the paint covers well. The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I agree with TH, use a stain blocking primer. doesn't mater if you spray or roll, the smell will come back after a while if you don't take the correct steps


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Are you rolling or spraying?
> 
> In my experience, if your spraying, you don't need to do anything but spray it with your choice of paint. If your rolling it, it may need a couple coats, but that smoke damage will not come through if the paint covers well. The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


Man, I just about couldnt disagree more. Smoke is a stain. Why would you not block it as a precautionary measure? Sometimes I dont get this place.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? .


I always prime over any smoke/ water damaged areas no matter what. Just my way of doing things the proper way.:yes:


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Man, I just about couldnt disagree more. Smoke is a stain. Why would you not block it as a precautionary measure? Sometimes I dont get this place.


Ditto...

Stain killer ALWAYS will leave a better job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Tonyg said:


> Ditto...
> 
> Stain killer ALWAYS will leave a better job.


I hope I am wrong, but its stuff like this that makes it look like some painters just want to whitewash and move on...get in and out as quickly as possible and charge for a proper job whether one is delivered or not. Not pointing fingers, but that was a post that makes me wonder.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I hope I am wrong, but its stuff like this that makes it look like some painters just want to whitewash and move on...get in and out as quickly as possible and charge for a proper job whether one is delivered or not. Not pointing fingers, but that was a post that makes me wonder.


I cant agree more with this. I always want to take the proper steps. even with the new latex out that say you can apply over oil base. I have seen more and more painters that will take this chance to save a buck. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night worrying if it will hold up. It is better to do it right and sleep at night. Just like paying your taxes


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Are you rolling or spraying?
> 
> In my experience, if your spraying, you don't need to do anything but spray it with your choice of paint. If your rolling it, it may need a couple coats, but that smoke damage will not come through if the paint covers well. The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


So are you saying you wouldn't wipe it down? sand it? or any other type of prep??


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

If there are "smoke particles(black)cobwebs" on the ceiling, then there is smoke stain/damage. Brown or not. 

As much as I hate most things Zinsser, they know what they are doing with shellac. 

IMO, B-I-N has always set the standard for blocking smoke stains and even odor. AND yes, wash the area first. I always liked clear ammonia. 

I never had as good performance over smoke with other stain blockers. Each are good for different stains.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Are you rolling or spraying?
> 
> In my experience, if your spraying, you don't need to do anything but spray it with your choice of paint. If your rolling it, it may need a couple coats, but that smoke damage will not come through if the paint covers well. The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


This Question takes one back to the basics of painting. Even the HomeDepot paint mixer should know this one.:yes:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree I have used BIN for nicotine areas and smoke and it works well.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Are you rolling or spraying?
> 
> In my experience, if your spraying, you don't need to do anything but spray it with your choice of paint. If your rolling it, it may need a couple coats, but that smoke damage will not come through if the paint covers well. The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose? It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


You got me thinking bout you on this one. Respect level just dropped a few.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> It doesn't bleed through like nicotine or water damage stains.


Jason,

Gotta disagree on this one. Most smoke is lamp black - carbon. Lamp black is one of the most virulent colorants. 

All smoke I know also has other solids in it, such as creosote or grease or other chemicals that will leech and come through a finish paint. It may not come through a heavily bodied paint in time for you to cash the check, but it WILL come through a "regular" paint in the future.

Shellac has been an age tested sealer. The white pigment in B-I-N makes it, IMO, the best choice to STOP smoke stain bleed-through.

-Bill


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Smoke damage, smoke stains, smoke smell, whether actual black from a fire, or that oily greasy furnace blow-back, or too many Glade stinky candles...doesn't really matter how or why, nearly always will bleed through and should be sealed in with shellac

Admittedly, if it's not too bad, a quality alkyd (oil) stain sealer might work OK
Unfortunately, most of us can't base our bids and reps on "might work OK"

Zinsser's BIN white pigmented shellac has been the standard fire damage sealer for years
I can't see why Sherwin's or Insl-X's wouldn't work just as well, but personally I have only used BIN smoke situations


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

> I can't see why Sherwin's or Insl-X's wouldn't work just as well, but personally I have only used BIN smoke situations


You would think they'd all be close in performance but BIN puts the SW Shellac to shame. Haven't used the Insulx.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

GMack said:


> .. BIN puts the SW Shellac to shame....


Thanks for the heads up!!!


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Not being a SW guy I didn't even know that they made a pigmented shellac


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Apparently you weren't missing much


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Most of my experience comes from slamming out apartment interiors and it's not as crucial for bleeding issues, they get turned over so many times I don't think smoke damage has a chance to show itself after the paointing... lol. That has been a while. I rarely do an interior and when I do I rarely if at all get any smoke damaged jobs. I have no doubt that the experience you all talk about is true. I'll consider some new steps in my prep if I ever come to this issue. Thanks!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

don't things like Creosote and grease need to get washed with TSP, not just ammonia?
I am not questioning anyone anyone on BIN, but why does it or a shellac work so much better than say Cover Stain. I am just not a huge fan of BIN and am always looking for something else to use instead. Not that CS is that much better to deal with but.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> don't things like Creosote and grease need to get washed with TSP, not just ammonia?
> I am not questioning anyone anyone on BIN, but why does it or a shellac work so much better than say Cover Stain. I am just not a huge fan of BIN and am always looking for something else to use instead. Not that CS is that much better to deal with but.


TC,

IMO, ammonia is one of the best grease cutters, and it evaporates if you don't rinse completely clean. TSP is a good detergent, but I hate how difficult it is to rinse. (Your milage may differ). When I used to wash houses (by hand with dairy brushes, mind you), the solution was water, bleach, TSP, and a non-ionic detergent (liquid dish soap). Yup it worked, but damn, lotta rinsing.

Shellac is just one of those coatings that presents a great barrier. I find that it doesn't work well on alcohol based inks (Magic Marker et al), but for knots and smoke, it is the ballz. And, in case you didn't get the memo, B-I-N is a white pigmented shellac.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

wash and bin the room , and check out the adjacent rooms also,,, then blast it with some ozone.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

daArch said:


> TC,
> 
> IMO, ammonia is one of the best grease cutters, and it evaporates if you don't rinse completely clean. TSP is a good detergent, but I hate how difficult it is to rinse. (Your milage may differ). When I used to wash houses (by hand with dairy brushes, mind you), the solution was water, bleach, TSP, and a non-ionic detergent (liquid dish soap). Yup it worked, but damn, lotta rinsing.
> 
> Shellac is just one of those coatings that presents a great barrier. I find that it doesn't work well on alcohol based inks (Magic Marker et al), but for knots and smoke, it is the ballz. And, in case you didn't get the memo, B-I-N is a white pigmented shellac.


Great info Bill. I have been using the tsp rinse free liquid stuff. Much easier to rinse off (it is like I would not rinse something like tsp off . . . yea right). Does your clear ammonia have the typical ammonia smell? I don't mix soap with my tsp, though I am sure a surficant would benefit its cleaning abilities. Soap residue seems to be difficult to avoid though.

So shellac for smoke and knots, CS for marker and ink and the like. And yes, i did get the white pigmented memo, didn't participate though :whistling2:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> then blast it with some ozone.


what do you mean here John?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> Does your clear ammonia have the typical ammonia smell?


"Clear" as opposed to "sudsy" ammonia, and yes, it DOES have the typical ammonia smell! Prolly even more. 

If you go to a janitorial supply house you can buy INDUSTRIAL strength. That'll burn a hole through your sinuses quicker than snorting white crosses. 

I used to use ammonia for stripping wallpaper. But I realized no one liked the smell - although I got so I could barely notice it. 

We oughta start a thread about which stain blockers block which stains. CS, Kilz (oil), B-I-N, and the others all seem to work best on a certain category of stains. I used to know what to use when facing crayons, magic marker, smoke, "washable" markers, etc. It be a good resource for all to have the right sealer for each particular stain.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

daArch said:


> "Clear" as opposed to "sudsy" ammonia


You'll see a "sudsy" ammonia mix, often colored, sold as window wash
You don't want that kind
The "clear" should simply be labeled ammonia...and be clear


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

daArch said:


> As much as I hate most things Zinsser, they know what they are doing with shellac.
> 
> IMO, B-I-N has always set the standard for blocking smoke stains and even odor.


I was surprised to read so many posts before I heard shellac. It's the only primer that blocks the odor.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The ONLY reason anyone might or should prime over smoke damage is to seal in the smell, otherwise what's the purpose?



Why the hell wouldn't you seal in the smell????? If I came and sh!t on your rug would you wash it with water?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

oil based kilz blocks the oder as well



painttofish said:


> If I came and sh!t on your rug would you wash it with water?


paint, you are definitely NOT invited to my next party


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

I did a comparison test with S/W shellac vs. BIN.
BIN won hands down, and the S/W smells worse then the BINS.

Last August I did a fire damaged house, we primed the whole thing with BIN. I have returned to the home on 3 different occasions (not call backs) and there has been no odor. I would not consider using anything else for smoke, stains, knots and anything else that may need to be blocked. I keep a quart in the truck at all times.
Sage


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Bender said:


> oil based kilz blocks the oder as well



Oil Kilz does have its uses, but I've never know it to seal all smoke stains. Have they changed the formula in the past 15 years?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

sage said:


> I would not consider using anything else for smoke, stains, knots and anything else that may need to be blocked. I keep a quart in the truck at all times.
> Sage


Sage, don't get me wrong, I think B-I-N is the best stain sealer for many stains. BUT it is NOT a panacea. There ARE stains that bleed through it. I wish I could remember the list, but it's been to many years.

Kilz has its list of stains it will block, as does Cover Stain and every other one.

As I said in a previous post, we should compile a list of what stains each stain sealer will actually seal.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

daArch said:


> As I said in a previous post, we should compile a list of what stains each stain sealer will actually seal.


I'll start, BIN blocks smoke stain and smell:jester: Water seals Jason's rug:no:


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## ccpainting (Oct 17, 2007)

the only problem is it is such light smoke damage in this room you do not even smell the smoke and it looks white from what we can see.The room has a 26 foot ceiling and is painted with flat white paint. so its non washable. I also read you can't wash smoke with water you have to use a chemical sponge. this home owner wants me to remove the black cobwebs and prime where it smears on the wall. I am going to vacuum them out so they don't touch the walls. the kitchen is normal size and that is where most of the damage is over the stove. that room will get totally stain killed.


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