# Staining New Window casements and trim



## KBPaintingIowa (12 mo ago)

I am staining 23 window casements and trim in a house that just got news windows. It has existing trim throughout the house around doors and base. The homeowner wasn't certain on what was used on the trim...but had a quart of Sher-Wood BAC wiping stain. 

I have a scrap piece of existing trim and scrap piece of the new pine trim they are using to make sure the stain they had was a match. I have attached a picture of my sample (top piece of wood) compared to the existing piece. The piece I put a sample test on has 2 coats and as you can see the existing piece is still much different.

Do you think it was a gel stain? Not wiped off? Or left on for more than the 10 min I left each coat on?

Any tips or help would be much appreciated!

Thank you,
KB


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Sand to 150 apply with brush and wipe off in a few minutes and see where it's at.

It's very blotchy doesn't look good at all. Maybe even done at 220. Doubt whoever did it spent a lot of time with prep


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Not to insult your expertise - but did you stir it? I mean REALLY stir it?


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Likely not the same stain that was used on the existing trim. Did you stir all of the solids on the bottom of the can?

Looks like RH stated the obvious about stirring before I commented but also is there a stain color or formula on the can? 
wood should be sanded with 120 to 150 or so sandpaper to remove mill glaze and open and or close the grain and use a wood conditioner for even stain penetration. 
Properly sanded and and treated with a wood conditioner wood will not adsorb much more color leaving it on longer vs shorter. I saturate the heck out of the wood with stain and wipe it with first saturated 
stain rages then a semi-wet rag then a dry rag to remove the rest of the stain. 

Work with your local paint store to get a stain match with pine scraps you have that have been sanded and has a coat of wood conditioner.
Like I said the wodwork I do is treated with a pre-stain and when I stain the wood it is dripping with stain and worked in then wiped off.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

The can looks like the right colour. Your sample doesn't. I agree about the stirring..


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Some of the color difference could be due to naturally occurring oxidation, being that white pine has a tendency to darken with age. Below is an example of 20 years worth of oxidation on eastern white pine which I recently stripped/refinished, yet hadn’t originally been stained, but was clear coated with a waterborne clear finish. The lighter color is where I had sanded out the oxidation.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> Some of the color difference could be due to naturally occurring oxidation, being that white pine has a tendency to darken with age. Below is an example of 20 years worth of oxidation on eastern white pine which I recently stripped/refinished, yet hadn’t originally been stained, but was clear coated with a waterborne clear finish. The lighter color is where I had sanded out the oxidation.
> 
> View attachment 113692


Have you any good method to replicate this oxidation?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Have you any good method to replicate this oxidation?


Nitric Acid works pretty well depending upon the particular species of whitewood pine.

The naturally occurring undertones due to oxidation are “very difficult” to replicate with stains when matching new to old…I’ll often use different chemical oxidizers first to simulate aging when matching new to old followed by staining or dyeing.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Nitric Acid works pretty well depending upon the particular species of whitewood pine.
> 
> The naturally occurring undertones due to oxidation are “very difficult” to replicate with stains when matching new to old…I’ll often use different chemical oxidizers first to simulate aging when matching new to old followed by staining or dyeing.


I’ve run into this problem recently… trying to match a new window going in an old pine-paneled room. The paneling had darkened a lot, but was never stained.
In the end I decided to stain the window a similar color, but left it lighter in value than the existing panels, guessing that It would amber and darken when closed for the season.

? - where would I get Nitric Acid, and is it safe for someone not experienced to use it? It is similar to oxacylic acid in that it is a powder that mixes with water?How to use it?

I see there are Nitric Acid substitutes. That suggests it may be a toxic substance. Are the substitutes any good?

thanks @Redux. Appreciate your contributions.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> I’ve run into this problem recently… trying to match a new window going in an old pine-paneled room. The paneling had darkened a lot, but was never stained.
> In the end I decided to stain the window a similar color, but left it lighter in value than the existing panels, guessing that It would amber and darken when closed for the season.
> 
> ? - where would I get Nitric Acid, and is it safe for someone not experienced to use it? It is similar to oxacylic acid in that it is a powder that mixes with water?How to use it?
> ...


Below is an article which pretty much sums up most of the chemical reagents used to artificially age wood. I’ve employed most but not all the methods described in the article plus a few of my own chemical concoctions not mentioned. 

Nitric Acid can be readily purchased from a number of online resources including Grainger, and is a liquid, not a crystal like OA. Best to read through the manufacturer’s SDS before trying. When diluting with water, always add acid to water, not the other way around. It behaves differently on different pine species based on the actual chemical composition of the wood.

The Chemical Dyeing Of Wood | uWoodcraft.com

Edit: forgot to mention that when using nitric acid, to apply it liberally to thoroughly wet the wood w/out puddling followed by applying heat with either a heat gun on low setting or a hairdryer on the hottest setting.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I'd first ask the same question as the posters before me who asked about how thoroughly you mixed the stain. Also of note would be how OFTEN you mixed it, since the pigments & resins will settle to the bottom without frequent stirring. 

How long ago was the pre-existing trim stained?
How old is the can of wiping stain you're working with?
What were your prep procedures, (if any), before staining?

*Please provide more info if you're looking for the best possible advice. * 

-Maybe your sample was lighter because you didn't sand beforehand and there may have been some mill glaze which limited the amount of stain absorption.
-Maybe you sanded with too high of a grit; limiting the ability of the stain to penetrate fully. 
-Maybe the trim has just aged and darkened if enough time has elapsed. 
-Maybe you're working with old stain. IIRC, BAC has a shelf life of around 2 years *UNOPENED.*

If you sanded with no higher of grit than 220 and the pre-existing trim is only a few years old, you could try water popping, which I find especially useful for woods like pine, as it allows the stain to penetrate deeper and more evenly, reducing the risk of blotching. All of this is assuming you're working with a stain which hasn't exceeded its useful life. In any event, if and when you do get an acceptable match, I'd suggest buying a new can of stain. As you know, the material cost is quite minimal in regards to the type of work you're doing, so it'd be money well spent imho.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I also wonder about stirring, but I've also always just usually done A LOT of experimentation whenever needing to match a stain. I actually have a reasonably large bin of stains on hand that I go to, largely from past jobs. So I always keep them so that I always have stuff to play with when needed. And if I can't make anything work...well, I just buy more and end up with more stains in the bin for next time.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> I’ve run into this problem recently… trying to match a new window going in an old pine-paneled room. The paneling had darkened a lot, but was never stained.
> In the end I decided to stain the window a similar color, but left it lighter in value than the existing panels, guessing that It would amber and darken when closed for the season.
> 
> ? - where would I get Nitric Acid, and is it safe for someone not experienced to use it? It is similar to oxacylic acid in that it is a powder that mixes with water?How to use it?
> ...


Pretty descriptive video at link describing the process at length:


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Pretty descriptive video at link describing the process at length:


Thank you. Very informative!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> Pretty descriptive video at link describing the process at length:


Thank you. 10% dilution seems quite strong. I assume the effect is different at 1-5%? I'll have to find some to play with. I like how he had a stain board of different species pushed together. useful!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Thank you. Very informative!


I also use the chemical reagent bottles with the glass stoppers he mentions in the the video:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Thank you. 10% dilution seems quite strong. I assume the effect is different at 1-5%? I'll have to find some to play with. I like how he had a stain board of different species pushed together. useful!


I’ve only worked with more highly concentrated dilutions when trying to match antique pumpkin pine…I’m guessing that a lesser dilution would result in a yellow to slightly amber look.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> I’ve run into this problem recently… trying to match a new window going in an old pine-paneled room. The paneling had darkened a lot, but was never stained.
> In the end I decided to stain the window a similar color, but left it lighter in value than the existing panels, guessing that It would amber and darken when closed for the season.
> 
> ? - where would I get Nitric Acid, and is it safe for someone not experienced to use it? It is similar to oxacylic acid in that it is a powder that mixes with water?How to use it?
> ...


I also ran into the same difficulty not too long ago when trying to match new oak to older existing ….stains & dyes just wouldn’t cut it.

I ended up using chemical stains illustrated in the following photos. What initially appeared to be easily matched with a stain or dye, actually wasn’t, being that two other wood finishing firms before me were unable to provide an acceptable match for the client to sign off on.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

What you guys produce certainly makes a regular ole resi repaint kind of guy jealous. lol. Here I am stuck filling nail and screw holes and piling on paint. Wish I had got into this kind of stuff years ago. C'est la vie. Always love to see the pics.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Hey KB - just curious…what part of Iowa are you in?!


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