# Re finishing a coffee table



## finishesbykevyn

I have a designer who wants me to refinish a coffee table that is apparently a black laquer or something now. She wants it white.. What would you do. ?


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## Gracobucks

Have you refinished furniture before or have any experience with lacquer?


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## jennifertemple

My approach would be as follows:

I would sand it down to bear wood. If you can take it out side, give it a good final scrub with toluene with medium fine steel wool to remove any trace lacquer from detailed areas if need be. It will require no primer, you can go straight to spraying on a white lacquer. My guess is it will require a minimum of 3 coats and you must wet sand each coat 600 grit. After the final spray (depending on how much you are getting for the job) You can wet sand the top with 600, then 800, then rub well with pumice powder and water until you have a nice satin look and finally rub it with rotten-stone & mineral oil. Keep rubbing the rotten-stone until you have a nice gloss finish. You will need to wash off the rotten-stone to check the gloss. ALWAYS WORKING IN THE DIRECTION OF THE GRAIN! OR if there is not enough money in it, settle for wet sanding between coats with 600, final spray and call it a day.


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## finishesbykevyn

Gracobucks said:


> Have you refinished furniture before or have any experience with lacquer?


No, I don't use lacquer at all. In fact it's hard to get around here.


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## finishesbykevyn

Is it really necassary to remove the old finish? Could I not just sand and prime it, then proceed? Would it not need a clear coat for added protection?



jennifertemple said:


> My approach would be as follows:
> 
> I would sand it down to bear wood. If you can take it out side, give it a good final scrub with toluene with medium fine steel wool to remove any trace lacquer from detailed areas if need be. It will require no primer, you can go straight to spraying on a white lacquer. My guess is it will require a minimum of 3 coats and you must wet sand each coat 600 grit. After the final spray (depending on how much you are getting for the job) You can wet sand the top with 600, then 800, then rub well with pumice powder and water until you have a nice satin look and finally rub it with rotten-stone & mineral oil. Keep rubbing the rotten-stone until you have a nice gloss finish. You will need to wash off the rotten-stone to check the gloss. ALWAYS WORKING IN THE DIRECTION OF THE GRAIN! OR if there is not enough money in it, settle for wet sanding between coats with 600, final spray and call it a day.


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> Is it really necassary to remove the old finish? Could I not just sand and prime it, then proceed? Would it not need a clear coat for added protection?


 What kind of finish is going on it?
I expect, if it is not lacquer, than probably a good sanding will do fine. Mea Culpa, for assuming it would be a lacquer.


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## finishesbykevyn

@Jennifertemple Ya, Honestly not sure yet. Haven't even seen it. Just wanted to get some info first on possible procedures for some amo..
Not that I don't mind sanding it all the way down, but can you not just prime with BIN and Laquer over that? Or would the laquer eat it.? Guessing I could use a waterborne lacquer also. But was also curious as to the durabilty of a laquer on its own as a table top.


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> @*Jennifer*temple Ya, Honestly not sure yet. Haven't even seen it. Just wanted to get some info first on possible procedures for some amo..
> Not that I don't mind sanding it all the way down, but can you not just prime with BIN and Laquer over that? Or would the laquer eat it.? Guessing I could use a waterborne lacquer also. But was also curious as to the durabilty of a laquer on its own as a table top.


I would NOT use Bin, I think it would really make a mess as it melted into the lacquer. ANY OTHER good quality primer would be better!


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> @Jennifertemple Ya, Honestly not sure yet. Haven't even seen it. Just wanted to get some info first on possible procedures for some amo..
> Not that I don't mind sanding it all the way down, but can you not just prime with BIN and Laquer over that? Or would the laquer eat it.? Guessing I could use a waterborne lacquer also. But was also curious as to the durabilty of a laquer on its own as a table top.


I’d steer clear of WB lacquer for a coffee table. Just not durable enough for a tabletop wear surface. I recently revisited a project I did 11 years ago, most of the furniture was custom made for the home (the George Jestson house from a prior thread), and “every” piece finished with WB lacquer experienced finish failure of sorts, some of the heavier use pieces failing within the first year placed in service. I did not do the furniture finishing on the failed pieces, yet it was 2 of the more widely touted production lacquers that failed. I’ve since refinished a number of the pieces, 3 being tabletops on lightly used occasional tables, the client wanting 5 more failed pieces refinished. After witnessing and dealing with the failures firsthand, I’m not much of a fan of WB lacquers for furniture wear surfaces, particularly on tabletops, nor would I recommend them.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Alchemy Redux said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Jennifertemple Ya, Honestly not sure yet. Haven't even seen it. Just wanted to get some info first on possible procedures for some amo..
> Not that I don't mind sanding it all the way down, but can you not just prime with BIN and Laquer over that? Or would the laquer eat it.? Guessing I could use a waterborne lacquer also. But was also curious as to the durabilty of a laquer on its own as a table top.
> 
> 
> 
> I’d steer clear of WB lacquer for a coffee table. Just not durable enough for a tabletop wear surface. I recently revisited a project I did 11 years ago, most of the furniture was custom made for the home (the George Jestson house from a prior thread), and “every” piece finished with WB lacquer experienced finish failure of sorts, some of the heavier use pieces failing within the first year placed in service. I did not do the furniture finishing on the failed pieces, yet it was 2 of the more widely touted production lacquers that failed. I’ve since refinished a number of the pieces, 3 being tabletops on lightly used occasional tables, the client wanting 5 more failed pieces refinished. After witnessing and dealing with the failures firsthand, I’m not much of a fan of WB lacquers for furniture wear surfaces, particularly on tabletops, nor would I recommend them.
Click to expand...

We're those acrylic lacquers or urethane?


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## finishesbykevyn

Ya I guess I could just use Stix Primer and then..?What about Advance with a Waterborne Clear Coat over it or somethingn of the likes..Or if I clear coated the Lacquer..


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## Redux

cocomonkeynuts said:


> We're those acrylic lacquers or urethane?


What I gathered from the tech sheets, the two products by two different manufacturers were both acrylic production lacquers with non identified polymer resins, not knowing if they also contained PU, one being a pre-cat product and the other utilizing an optional non-aziridine crosslinker. Just wondering what you’d recommend in a waterborne pigmented finish for something like a coffee table?? I’m in a similar thought process having to tackle some similar pieces.


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya I guess I could just use Stix Primer and then..?What about Advance with a Waterborne Clear Coat over it or somethingn of the likes..Or if I clear coated the Lacquer..


The potential problem using any finish containing an alkyd resin such as Advance is that it typically needs exposure to sunlight otherwise it may yellow. If there are decorative objects placed on the table for any length of time, the finish beneath them devoid of sunlight may turn yellow, sometimes the yellowing can be extreme, but it doesn’t necessarily always happen. I’ve had a couple of instances where it did and others where it was fine. I don’t use Advance but I’ve used other alkyd paints where it did happen, so I’m only “guessing” it could happen with Advance. 

In the waterborne lineup maybe an aziridine crosslinked poly-acrylic pigmented coating would work, possibly something such as Sayerlack Hydroplus. A 2K isocyanate pigmented PU would also be a bullet proof option but then you’d end up incurring a huge material cost just to finish one piece, not to mention the learning curve and nuances of applying iso 2Ks. There was a recent new member here earlier this year who posted about clearing their lacquers with 2K iso PUs to provide durability on furniture. 

Before ditching solvent borne lacquers many moons ago I’d alway do as Jennifer suggested, post catalyzed solvent borne lacquer being the better.

The “best option” which I’ve been using a lot lately is to utilize the less durable WB finishes and to educate the client on the care of the finishes, incorporating exclusions in my contracts outlining the can’s and cannot’s for each particular finish. As a selling tool I’ll always throw out the environmental pluses as well as health concerns with potential outgassing when using more durable solvent borne finishes, the clients always signing off on the less durable “green” options and accepting the consequences for potential failures when utilizing less durable yet environmentally friendly finishes.


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya I guess I could just use Stix Primer and then..?What about Advance with a Waterborne Clear Coat over it or somethingn of the likes..Or if I clear coated the Lacquer..


If your doing WB paint, I'd go with Para Ultra Hybrid, I use it on cabinets all the time. It's tough, lays down beautifully and takes high grit sanding well if applying a clear coat on top.


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## finishesbykevyn

Para is really hard to get over here. Used to order it in for the Bulk Barn Stores..Sounds pretty much the same as Advance anyhow. Alchemy Redux is right about the possible yellowing too. Would a white lacquer not yellow?
I\m really trying to stay away from using solvent lacquers. Or solvent anything really. Being new to this furniture stuff, I'm starting to realize the value of potent materials. They work.. All that aside, Jennifer your saying a straight up 1 part tinted white lacquer would be tough enough on its own? If I stripped it down to bare wood.



jennifertemple said:


> If your doing WB paint, I'd go with Para Ultra Hybrid, I use it on cabinets all the time. It's tough, lays down beautifully and takes high grit sanding well if applying a clear coat on top.


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> Para is really hard to get over here. Used to order it in for the Bulk Barn Stores..Sounds pretty much the same as Advance anyhow. Alchemy Redux is right about the possible yellowing too. Would a white lacquer not yellow?
> I\m really trying to stay away from using solvent lacquers. Or solvent anything really. Being new to this furniture stuff, I'm starting to realize the value of potent materials. They work.. All that aside, Jennifer your saying a straight up 1 part tinted white lacquer would be tough enough on its own? If I stripped it down to bare wood.


With the solvent borne lacquers, nitrocellulose & catalyzed lacquers do yellow, CAB doesn’t. Before dropping the solvent borne lacquers I’d use CAB when doing whites or pastels. White WB acrylic lacquers won’t yellow either.


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## Mr Smith

finishesbykevyn said:


> I have a designer who wants me to refinish a coffee table that is apparently a black laquer or something now. She wants it white.. What would you do. ?


Renner 643 High Build 2K sealer

Renner 851 2k topcoat


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## mug

Mr Smith said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a designer who wants me to refinish a coffee table that is apparently a black laquer or something now. She wants it white.. What would you do. ?
> 
> 
> 
> Renner 643 High Build 2K sealer
> 
> Renner 851 2k topcoat
Click to expand...

Are you using these products frequently yet or just following Eric Reasons !


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## finishesbykevyn

That stuff does look pretty good. Water based too, which I like..Would have to order to NL though. Probably better chance at getting Lenmar products.



Mr Smith said:


> Renner 643 High Build 2K sealer
> 
> Renner 851 2k topcoat


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## finishesbykevyn

Would I need to remove old finish? And would you add a clear over that or no?



Alchemy Redux said:


> With the solvent borne lacquers, nitrocellulose & catalyzed lacquers do yellow, CAB doesn’t. Before dropping the solvent borne lacquers I’d use CAB when doing whites or pastels. White WB acrylic lacquers won’t yellow either.


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> Would I need to remove old finish? And would you add a clear over that or no?


You’d need to strip it if using CAB. Dry film thickness for entire systems over the wood’s original surface shouldn’t exceed 4 mils. I’ve always stripped furniture when refinishing with CAB. You need to use the specified undercoater or vinyl sealer followed by 2 top coats. Clear coating is optional but not necessary. CAB or any other solvent borne lacquer is nasty stuff to shoot if you don’t have proper venting with an explosion proof fan. It doesn’t have the greatest chemical or moisture resistance either. It’s really the only solvent borne lacquer that I’ve used when yellowing is a concern. I mentioned in a prior thread that I don’t use WB lacquers, the reason being is I’ve had too many second hand experiences seeing the finishes not perform all that well, those using them getting a lot of warranty callbacks. 

The 2K WB urethane option that Mr Smith mentioned is ideal for a table and any other wood surface for that matter. Finishes just don’t get better than that in terms of durability. I think I might have suggested a 2K PU in a prior post @ this thread as being the better option. Been using Euro 2K WB finishes regularly for about 11 +/- years now with -zero- issues. There are several good Italian options. Renner is probably the easiest to source being one of the only online retailers. 

Fine finishing commands equally fine finishing systems. When a paint company evolves into the finer aspects of wood finishing, especially when getting into furniture grade finishing, there comes that time when a painter has to stop thinking like a painter, and more like a wood finisher, stepping outside the comfort zone and take the plunge. Takes a bit of R&D, testing out different products, learning all the nuances and intricacies of each product and the applications, not to mention both the time and money spent. I look at it as an investment which always seems to pay off, even if it seems like a lot of work just for one coffee table. I always view it as a feather in the cap.


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## finishesbykevyn

Well said Alchemy Redux. And your so right. The fine finishining game is on a different level. Always appreciate your knowledge. I'm actually fascinated at how much info you have stored in your head. Haha. Definitely loving the challenge of all this new finishing work. It is definitely alot different than the regular painting contractor stuff that I've been doing for the past 20 yrs. Although that is still my bread and butter and an "in" for other more interesting projects.
I'm definitely not setup for spraying super flamable stuff, so sourcing the WB stuff may be a better option for now. Although I do spray BIN in my shop, but not in large production type spraying by any means.. My ventilation at the moment is a bathroom fan on the wall, which actually does great for my little operation.. mostly kitchen cabinets which everyone knows is really hot right now.



Alchemy Redux said:


> You’d need to strip it if using CAB. Dry film thickness for entire systems over the wood’s original surface shouldn’t exceed 4 mils. I’ve always stripped furniture when refinishing with CAB. You need to use the specified undercoater or vinyl sealer followed by 2 top coats. Clear coating is optional but not necessary. CAB or any other solvent borne lacquer is nasty stuff to shoot if you don’t have proper venting with an explosion proof fan. It doesn’t have the greatest chemical or moisture resistance either. It’s really the only solvent borne lacquer that I’ve used when yellowing is a concern. I mentioned in a prior thread that I don’t use WB lacquers, the reason being is I’ve had too many second hand experiences seeing the finishes not perform all that well, those using them getting a lot of warranty callbacks.
> 
> The 2K WB urethane option that Mr Smith mentioned is ideal for a table and any other wood surface for that matter. Finishes just don’t get better than that in terms of durability. I think I might have suggested a 2K PU in a prior post @ this thread as being the better option. Been using Euro 2K WB finishes regularly for about 11 +/- years now with -zero- issues. There are several good Italian options. Renner is probably the easiest to source being one of the only online retailers.
> 
> Fine finishing commands equally fine finishing systems. When a paint company evolves into the finer aspects of wood finishing, especially when getting into furniture grade finishing, there comes that time when a painter has to stop thinking like a painter, and more like a wood finisher, stepping outside the comfort zone and take the plunge. Takes a bit of R&D, testing out different products, learning all the nuances and intricacies of each product and the applications, not to mention both the time and money spent. I look at it as an investment which always seems to pay off, even if it seems like a lot of work just for one coffee table. I always view it as a feather in the cap.


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