# Flat paint isn't flat anymore!



## Ze Paynter (Feb 20, 2015)

I've been painting for about 30 years now and over the last few years I've suspected that flat paint just isn't flat like it used to be. I used to be able to get a cheap flat paint that went on flat and it looked good and even in reflective quality in just one coat (assuming it covered color wise in one coat). These weren't very good paints of coarse but they were flat. I could even touch up a rolled wall right in the middle with a brush and it would dry and basically blend right in when dry. 

Not so anymore. At least not with any paint I've tried. They all have some sheen. I know they are tougher than the older flat paints but sometimes I just want the benefits of the flatness. On ceilings for sure. The problem isn't so much when you are looking straight at a wall. It's when you are off to the side looking down the length of the wall and light is coming from the other end. I could say a lot more. Like talk about differences in reflective quality between brushed or rolled areas. Spots patched with drywall mud that take 2 or 3 coats of paint over top before the sheen blends in with the rest of the wall even if it covers in just one coat color wise. etc. But I just wanted to get this out there and see if other painters are noticing this and if they have found any solutions. Maybe there is a true flat paint somewhere, or an additive I could use to make it flat.

I'm beginning to believe this is partly a conspiracy that paint manufacturers are in on because it takes more paint to deal with this situation. I would love to hear some discussion on this subject. Please respond back. Thanks.


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## DONZI (Dec 23, 2013)

SW pro mar 400 is my go to flat!


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

You need to be like "I need a gallon of flat flat".... Gotta be 2 flats or they won't know what your talking about and doesn't hurt to add a "for real for real" in there also


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

You sound like you were raised on decent quality flat alkyds, the most widely known one being sani-flat. Yes, back then flats were flat. 

Now it seems wall paint attempts to be more "washable", which will be, by nature, not absolutely dead flat

If you want the flattest waterborne, they are now available as less expensive high build "builders flat" , which have a high filler content (usually clay). These are used to not only fill small voids but also disguise less than perfect surfaces by being so flat - which can be ideal for ceilings.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> You sound like you were raised on decent quality flat alkyds, the most widely known one being sani-flat. Yes, back then flats were flat.
> 
> Now it seems wall paint attempts to be more "washable", which will be, by nature, not absolutely dead flat
> 
> If you want the flattest waterborne, they are now available as less expensive high build "builders flat" , which have a high filler content (usually clay). These are used to not only fill small voids but also disguise less than perfect surfaces by being so flat - which can be ideal for ceilings.


PPG #6-50 was our go-to flat alkyd for a long time.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> PPG #6-50 was our go-to flat alkyd for a long time.



Never used PPG oils, except for one exterior. 

Hancock's flat (503 ?) was the bestest ceiling paint I found. I thought Sani-flat flashed too readily. 

Calcimine was good and flat :whistling2: AND high build :thumbsup:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

We usually use pro mar 400 flat, but recently have been trying out glidden hi hide which is a dead flat from Dulux, which seems to be really nice for 40$ less a five gallon pail


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

I used eminence for the last time on our last job because of WAY to much sheen for a flat lid paint. Curse you eminence!


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## paint guy 71 (Feb 15, 2015)

SW's CHB, Promar 700 flat, or Property Solutions Flat should do the trick


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Painter-Aaron said:


> We usually use pro mar 400 flat, but recently have been trying out glidden hi hide which is a dead flat from Dulux, which seems to be really nice for 40$ less a five gallon pail



Can you get that at Home Depot? lol

Actually I have got fivers of Glidden flat and been quite happy with the paint for ceilings and has been a go to paint for ceilings and for the price heck yes.

There was a recent thread about priming drywall or primers in general, what I found myself is PVA drywall primer has a sheen and zinzer 123 has a sheen but one fellow mentioned that it is good to use a primer with a sheen under a flat paint and I must agree it looks good.

I had this tough wall in the line of a bank of windows that would flash on every condo I did with any paint sheen I used on top and the zinsser solved that, would PVA primer solved that? I do not know but at close to 15 dollars a gallon vs. 30 a gallon for paint I would like to know peoples thoughts?

An observation I have made is flat paint in a 5 gallon bucket seems heavier the a 5 of satin or semi and so on. Also flat does flash and can and does have a sheen and can have touch up troubles whether sprayed, rolled, or sprayed and back-rolled, dry-brushed or dry-rolled and even after 2 or 3 coats the touch-up spots can appear darker then the wall coat, I say that using super spec.

I have had good success with higher end flat paints like 40 dollar a gallon or more on ceilings which have a nice soft flat sheen but do have a sheen. 

After all I have seen Primer on new drywall is the best way to ensure a good finish and I think some primers soak in to the drywall to seal and bond and others just seal the outside or surface of the drywall.


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Painter-Aaron said:


> We usually use pro mar 400 flat, but recently have been trying out glidden hi hide which is a dead flat from Dulux, which seems to be really nice for 40$ less a five gallon pail


Really it is a good product and Glidden may be marketed to homeowners but so is much of SW products and I found I was going to Home Depot (after hours) to finish interiors on weekends and was usually masking walls to spray ceilings weather flat or popcorn and off the shelf Glidden performed better then others for less then 20 a gallon.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

MIZZOU said:


> I used eminence for the last time on our last job because of WAY to much sheen for a flat lid paint. Curse you eminence!


that and terrible hiding properties, bad paint period:yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Allow me, as a paperhanger, to opine on hi hide, high filler paints. As I stated above, these less expensive products, better known as "builders flat", are full of clay. This makes them exceptionally UNSUITABLE as a surface to hang paper. 

I understand not many here would be applying these specifically as a prep for paper, but down the road some unsuspecting DIY'er or hack hanger could think "oh, it's painted, I'll just hang this paper on it" (as a matter of fact, many mural makers explicitly direct their product be hung on top of inexpensive flat paint)

Just for informational value (not accusatory) when paper is hung on these "builders flats" the clay in the paint absorbs lots of moisture from the paste and the wall surface, paint, and paper become one. Making stripping an absolute nightmare.

When I install, I test to see if the surface is a cheap hi-hide hi-filler flat paint. If it is, I apply a DRC (Draw-tite or gardz) to seal the surface. Once in awhile I've been caught without a DRC and have used Swing Wallpaper PrepCoat, which APPEARS to work, but I haven't stripped one of those yet, so no guarantees. 

Just bank this info for future use, please.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

daArch said:


> Allow me, as a paperhanger, to opine on hi hide, high filler paints. As I stated above, these less expensive products, better known as "builders flat", are full of clay. This makes them exceptionally UNSUITABLE as a surface to hang paper.
> 
> I understand not many here would be applying these specifically as a prep for paper, but down the road some unsuspecting DIY'er or hack hanger could think "oh, it's painted, I'll just hang this paper on it" (as a matter of fact, many mural makers explicitly direct their product be hung on top of inexpensive flat paint)
> 
> ...


And that it why I cringe when a DIY'er comes in my store and says they can't strip their wallpaper. Because i'm the one that has to tell them someone did a hack job putting it up and what a pita it is going to be to fix.
My third most common issue I deal with as a store. The two worst ones have to do with Be** paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I remember one thing Martha Stewart said that I agreed with whole heartedly. Anyone who wants to do their own wallpapering has never had to strip it.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Benjamin Moore Ultra flat for me.


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## ttalbon (Aug 6, 2009)

daArch said:


> Allow me, as a paperhanger, to opine on hi hide, high filler paints. As I stated above, these less expensive products, better known as "builders flat", are full of clay. This makes them exceptionally UNSUITABLE as a surface to hang paper.
> 
> I understand not many here would be applying these specifically as a prep for paper, but down the road some unsuspecting DIY'er or hack hanger could think "oh, it's painted, I'll just hang this paper on it" (as a matter of fact, many mural makers explicitly direct their product be hung on top of inexpensive flat paint)
> 
> ...


Just to add to that, when you use builders flat on a ceiling and hang wallpaper you have to be really careful if you get paste on the ceiling and try to wipe it off. If your flat paint is anything like ours (UK) it comes off with a damp cloth!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

General rule the cheaper the flat paint the more flat it is.

General rule. Anybody who finds themselfe altering what they do today so some painter/paper hanger whatever 4, 6,10 or whatever years from now has a easier time at ur expense ought worry about something more eminent to their own immediate welfare. IMHO anyhow.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Ultra hide from dulux is as 'dead' a flat I've ever seen or used. Touches up great, zero sheen (or Charlies ) and covers like a dream


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## Ze Paynter (Feb 20, 2015)

OK. This is great all this response to my thread. I will try some of these paints and compare the sheens. That would be Pro Mar 400, Pro Mar 700, and the Ultra Hide from Dulux or is that a Glidden thing? So I'll also ask about high filler content or "builders flat".
I realize that these paints are terrible underneath wallpaper. So ceilings are really the main thing here. 

However on walls occasionally a customer prefers flat finish and I have had a similar problem where the sheen is uneven between where it's been rolled and where brushed. Pretty much impossible to avoid in certain lighting. It will give the appearance of the brushed area looking lighter than the rolled areas, or visa versa. I really don't know what to do about it sometimes. I don't really want to use super cheap paint on the walls. 

It's funny, we used to say that the flat paint was the "forgiving" paint and it was the shinier paints that were the trouble makers (didn't touch up well..etc) Now it seems reversed where the eggshell/satin paints seem to blend in pretty well (between the brushing and the rolling) and the flat is just nothing but trouble.

Now if I could find a flat that didn't have this problem and was pretty durable that would be great. But I'm not holding my breath.


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## Ze Paynter (Feb 20, 2015)

By the way, I'd ask daArch what does DRC stand for?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ze Paynter said:


> By the way, I'd ask daArch what does DRC stand for?


Drywall Repair Coating (or Clear)

It is what Draw-tite (and it's lesser clone, Gardz ) is specifically marketed for. To coat ripped and damaged drywall so that it can be sanded and skimmed with out the "fuzzies" popping through the surface. The penetrating properties of these DRC's make them great sealers for many porous surfaces.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Oden said:


> General rule the cheaper the flat paint the more flat it is.
> 
> General rule. Anybody who finds themselfe altering what they do today so some painter/paper hanger whatever 4, 6,10 or whatever years from now has a easier time at ur expense ought worry about something more eminent to their own immediate welfare. IMHO anyhow.


I don't know about your Karma, but I doubt I am alone in having realized that it is best to "pay forward" by applying the appropriate prep coat today. 

I believe professional paperhangers will apply a prep coat. I'm just offering that it may be good karma to determine if the existing surface is a builders flat and if so, apply a DRC. No extra time or expense to prepare the wall correctly :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ttalbon said:


> Just to add to that, when you use builders flat on a ceiling and hang wallpaper you have to be really careful if you get paste on the ceiling and try to wipe it off. If your flat paint is anything like ours (UK) it comes off with a damp cloth!


Have you tried using a piece of wax paper, or strip of plastic film (crime scene tape) placed over the paste at the top of the strip to protect the ceiling from getting pasty ?

Another technique is to fold the top few inches of the strip over (paste to paste). It's not only builders flat that needs protection.


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## ttalbon (Aug 6, 2009)

Never tried the wax paper but i have tried the fold over technique many times.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

daArch said:


> Never used PPG oils, except for one exterior.
> 
> Hancock's flat (503 ?) was the bestest ceiling paint I found. I thought Sani-flat flashed too readily.
> 
> Calcimine was good and flat :whistling2: AND high build :thumbsup:


Believe it or not, I can still get this!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Believe it or not, I can still get this!


Have you ever used it ? And if so, what was your impression?

I've always thought it would be great stuff - UNTIL people decided to paint over it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Have you ever used it ? And if so, what was your impression?
> 
> I've always thought it would be great stuff - UNTIL people decided to paint over it.


As I understand it, one great use for it was on decorative plasterwork, especially intricate medallions, strapwork, etc.. The idea being that the old calcimine could be washed off before repainting, avoiding the buildup that would obscure the detail. Along the line, people lost track of that notion and stopped washing it off.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> As I understand it, one great use for it was on decorative plasterwork, especially intricate medallions, strapwork, etc.. The idea being that the old calcimine could be washed off before repainting, avoiding the buildup that would obscure the detail. Along the line, people lost track of that notion and stopped washing it off.


ALSO, being a lime product, it helped heal cracks. 

And as you know, to make a surface look fresh and clean again, a partial wash was all that was needed. Re-coating was necessary less frequently.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

daArch said:


> Have you ever used it ? And if so, what was your impression?
> 
> I've always thought it would be great stuff - UNTIL people decided to paint over it.


I didn't even know anyone still made it until a couple of weeks ago. I've never used it but I have seen it being used years ago. The main market for it is in historic restorations.
And by years ago we are talking 40-45 years.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I didn't even know anyone still made it until a couple of weeks ago. I've never used it but I have seen it being used years ago. The main market for it is in historic restorations.
> And by years ago we are talking 40-45 years.


yeah I know, I'm awful old to be here just to stock shelves and run the register.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Dutch Kalsomine is listed as available in the current Muralo catalog if anyone needs any. 25# pails only.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I didn't even know anyone still made it until a couple of weeks ago. I've never used it but I have seen it being used years ago. The main market for it is in historic restorations.
> And by years ago we are talking 40-45 years.


Hah. I imagine Arch has socks older than that!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Hah. I imagine Arch has socks older than that!


his toothbrush is probably older then that!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Socks - yes (my aunt knitted them for many X-masses in the late 60's early 70's)

Toothbrushes ??? Perhaps some for cleaning in my automotive toolbox 

Definitely a few ties 

U-trou ? I think I threw them away last year (I washed them and all that was left was the waistband :whistling2: )

and my favorite pair of red-white-and blue pin stripped seersucker bellbottom pants I still CAN wear on July 4 :thumbsup:

And my daily (and favorite) brass belt buckle that was bought in '67. Belts disintegrate, so it gets transferred to each new one.

OH and my pocket knife. It was my father's. The maker of it went out of business in about 1931

BUT I am NOT a hoarder, I'm a sentimentalist :whistling2:  :blink:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Socks - yes (my aunt knitted them for many X-masses in the late 60's early 70's)
> 
> Toothbrushes ??? Perhaps some for cleaning in my automotive toolbox
> 
> ...


Yeah, the Collyer brothers just thought they were being sentimental as well:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Ppg has a vinyl flat that is a true dead flat. You'll shell out 30$ a gallon for it though. But my does it look good!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Yeah, the Collyer brothers just thought they were being sentimental as well:
> 
> 
> View attachment 39017


No no no, like my mother, they were "collectors".

jeeesh, yah gotta know the difference


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Exactoman said:


> Ppg has a vinyl flat that is a true dead flat. You'll shell out 30$ a gallon for it though. But my does it look good!


gotta name for that?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> Yeah, the Collyer brothers just thought they were being sentimental as well:
> 
> 
> View attachment 39017


I see lots of open space in this photo.

futtyos


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

chrisn said:


> gotta name for that?


vinyl flat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Exactoman said:


> vinyl flat.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using PaintTalk.com mobile app


brand name, like speedhide. manor hall, pure performance, etc


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## Happee_grrl (Feb 9, 2014)

True value has a great "dead"flat.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

For ceilings I like the Benjamin Moore K508 Waterborn ceiling paint. (http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...t=use_paint&s_cu=clean_soapwater&advs=0&tab=2). 

It's pretty flat and it covers well. If the ceilings are low and/or the windows high and let a lot of light hit the ceiling at an angle that shows defect, the only thing is that it was showing roller drying lines. I always keep a wet edge, I even sometimes use extender (or fleotrol for other brands) and it's almost impossible not to have rolling lines with the new fast drying fast setting paints. 

As for difference between brush and roller marks, after I cut a certain area (let's say a lamp for example), I roll with a small roller as close as I can to my cutting. With that paint and that technique I never have a problem on that regards.

If anybody has some good insiders to avoid showing rolling marks when the lighting hits the surface sideways, please let me know.


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

I have and do go as far as to end the roll in the same direction like on a wall all the ending strokes go downward but again if the paint is not over worked or over rolled and was thinned properly.

BM is a product that has to have 2 coats to achieve the maximum color meaning each coat it gets darker and even after 3 roll coats I have seen where the touch up is darker.

That is a great looking ceiling paint though and Jazz, If you are doing new drywall a primer may cure that problem


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I always use a primer sealer on new drywall. The problem I've been having is even on prepainted ceilings, on which I used a primer sealer. There seems to be no way around roller marks on a surface that is exposed to side lighting, other than spraying. I'm totally new to sprayers, but I figure you'd need an air assisted airless pump to get a nice finish without the need for backrolling (which I guess could create those unwanted marks again).

Some paints forgive more than others. Here in province of Quebec we have a brand called Sico (owned by PPG), and their new second best line (the evolution) is really hard paint without getting roller marks, so I only use it in situations where the lighting doesn't hit from the side. I find the ultra spec from BM does the same thing, on walls and ceilings (not a great flat for ceilings, unless you're doing a standard bedroom with not much natural light coming in).

Latex products set more and more quickly and they might get better in terms of finish and washability, they're not always easier to apply to get a perfect result.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Jazz...roll in the same direction is the key man. I roll all mine up. No differential...walls look totally even from all angles, and this is even more important for walls over 9 ft,


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Exactoman said:


> Jazz...roll in the same direction is the key man. I roll all mine up. No differential...walls look totally even from all angles, and this is even more important for walls over 9 ft,


Does that mean that you never do a downstroke with your roller? How do you then go about spreading the paint evenly : do you go back at the bottom of your collumn with the roller off the wall then roll up again to get your even spread? I know some guys (and I do sometimes) go back after let's say rolling 3-4 collumns wide and roll in one direction without adding paint.

I might have jumped the gun earlier. There are some products that will give me good results. For example the BM Regal never gave me any trouble. That being said the Aura, even when using extender and recommended application techniques, will be harder at avoiding those rolling lines.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Does that mean that you never do a downstroke with your roller? How do you then go about spreading the paint evenly : do you go back at the bottom of your collumn with the roller off the wall then roll up again to get your even spread? I know some guys (and I do sometimes) go back after let's say rolling 3-4 collumns wide and roll in one direction without adding paint.
> 
> I might have jumped the gun earlier. There are some products that will give me good results. For example the BM Regal never gave me any trouble. That being said the Aura, even when using extender and recommended application techniques, will be harder at avoiding those rolling lines.


I'm assuming that Exactoman means to make your final pass with the roller in a consistent direction. We always finish with a downstroke on walls, for instance. Another tip is to keep the "hook" of the roller frame pointed in the same direction. What works for us is to keep the open side of the frame toward the wet side, that gives us fewer problems with roller tracks.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I am assuming that it is a given that when one makes that final pass, pressure is applied more to the dry side (I like my hook on the dry side) so that the cover is feathering the wet edge.

In the old days, with long open time oils, it was sooo much easier achieving a perfect finish. I do admire the way you guys can work these blasted quick dry waterbornes - and I don't think there are any extenders that give enough open time.

I suppose having two guys working as a team would help on larger ceilings.

I guess this and the http://www.painttalk.com/f2/what-direction-roll-ceiling-36305/ thread are converging


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> brand name, like speedhide. manor hall, pure performance, etc


It was originally a Porter product. Vinyl flat was the actual name. God knows what PPG calls it or what brand label it has now! We sold tons of it for N/C homes in Columbus. Great touch up.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Gough said:


> I'm assuming that Exactoman means to make your final pass with the roller in a consistent direction. We always finish with a downstroke on walls, for instance. Another tip is to keep the "hook" of the roller frame pointed in the same direction. What works for us is to keep the open side of the frame toward the wet side, that gives us fewer problems with roller tracks.



I do that as well, but still it's not enough for some products. Some paints make it worse if you go again to a set of 3-4 collumns (roller wide) then downstroke (like the Aura for example, you cannot go back at a collumn).


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Keep in mind most/many Tech Data Sheets have sheen at a certain angle on them. Look at the sheen, compare between brands, and see what you like. The 0508 waterborn ceiling from BM is quite low sheen (0-2 at 85 degrees) compared to some of the others around, but obviously a bit pricey.

There was a question regarding flat on walls and not wanting crappy paint- have you ever considered a matte instead of a dead flat? I might try to convince my customers of that, were I you. You can get a good quality matta (Regal Select, for instance) that's not going to have a ton of sheen, will touch up nicely, and is also very scrubable. Otherwise, there's a Regal Select Flat as well that's a good quality paint (1-3.5 @ 85 degrees).


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

http://solutions.kilz.com/TDS/PX310_TDS.pdf


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

It's called Vinyl Flat!!!!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Exactoman said:


> It's called Vinyl Flat!!!!


ok ok ok got it:blink:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Hey Chris I think it's called Vinyl Flat:whistling2:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Hey Chris I think it's called Vinyl Flat:whistling2:


Or maybe not. PPG is starting to reduce Porter's presence in the market, just like they have with Devoe, monarch, pioneer, etc. It's hard to tell if it has the same name or not. I can contact my contact if someone can't find it as Vinyl Flat if they need me too.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Woodford said:


> Hey Chris I think it's called Vinyl Flat:whistling2:


you sure?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Or maybe not. PPG is starting to reduce Porter's presence in the market, just like they have with Devoe, monarch, pioneer, etc. It's hard to tell if it has the same name or not. I can contact my contact if someone can't find it as Vinyl Flat if they need me too.


You don't have to on my account, I really don't care


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Yeah eminence isn't that great...


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Yeah eminence isn't that great...


That's the one I use. What's wrong with it? Natura sucks BTW.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> That's the one I use. What's wrong with it? Natura sucks BTW.


I like muresco better.

You don't like heaven if you don't like natura.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> You don't have to on my account, I really don't care


I don't really care myself. If PPG wants to mess with one of their better products, it's fine with me.
Kind of what SW did with Duron PlastiKote.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Yeah eminence isn't that great...


Agree!:yes::yes:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Happee_grrl said:


> True value has a great "dead"flat.


Whatever!


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

mudbone said:


> Agree!:yes::yes:


true! any so called flat white that does not cover a white.. stinks. period....


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

mudbone said:


> Whatever!


actually, they do!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> I like muresco better.
> 
> You don't like heaven if you don't like natura.


I hate Muresco. I'd rather use Kilz Pro 300.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I hate Muresco. I'd rather use Kilz Pro 300.


Su loco bra.

Muresco smells like money to me.


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