# Fish eyes in cratering in breakthrough 250



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Has anyone ever had this before? Used smart Prime went on no problem. Have cratering with the 250 even after second coat. Happens even when laid flat. Also getting Orange Peel. Using a 310 fine finish tip with the Titan 440


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Can't figure out how to add picture on my phone or I would. It's like hundreds of tiny little pin holes right as the paint goes on.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Ok here are a couple pics. one is right after spraying and the other is dry. my only thought is this could be a temperature thing as I was spraying in a garage. The temp was in the low 50's, which is (barely) within the range for breakthrough, but still within the range. Is this something that could be temp related? As a test tried some cabinet coat i had in the truck, same problem. Hmm must be either temp or something else in the air. The primer went on just fine.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

How long did you let the primer dry.? With it being that cool, i'd say your primer wasn't dry..or not compatible with the breakthrough. It's nice to have temps around 70deg. with 50% humidity for fine finishing. I also like to wait 24hrs before topcoating..You may have to remove paint or skim in cratering and reprime..


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I imagine its something with the temperatures and previous coat not being cured enough. I would let it dry a couple days sand it well and see if spraying another coat fixes it. Try to warm up your spray area and maybe thin the breakthrough with flotrol or water. I do not spray a lot and only breakthrough once but that is all I can think of.


Trouble with water based paints in my experience is they do not sand near as well as oil based so its harder to fix if there is a problem in the finish. I'm trying to get away from oils but there is nothing like sanding an oil finish to a powder and spraying the top coat smooth as glass.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thanks guys, I hadn't thought about the primer not drying. I smart Primed the night before and top-coated in the morning, it was at least 14 hrs between prime and top coat. Did a temp check this morning and it is in the low 60s in this garage, so I would have thought that would be far enough within the safe zone, but as my first boss liked to say, " painting can be a humbling trade sometimes" 😄. 

Last night I started wondering if there was some sort of contamination in the line because of the smart Prime. I believe it is a hybrid similar to advance, and have read elsewhere on paint talk about Advance contaminating lines because of the alkyds. Hmm..

I'm fortunate to have some very gracious customers on this job, and they do not think it is necessary to recoat. I'm lucky this is a satin Sheen too.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

On second thought, not sure about line contamination as the cabinet boxes inside sprayed out just fine. The only other variable that can think of is I sanded the doors after Prime, and left the boxes because they were real smooth still. I used that blue Norton saint-gobain paper 220 Grit. I believe I've read about possible sandpaper contamination on here. Hmmm...


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

*Pinholes in sprayed finish*

After viewing the pic close-up, these appear to be pinholes you're experiencing, completely unrelated to contamination btw. My guess is the finish is being applied too heavy when sprayed flat, (at least given the temperatures you're working in). That would certainly explain the orange peel texture. You said the boxes you sprayed had no issues, probably due to you having to spray a little lighter to avoid runs. 

Try first spraying a light dusting coat, allowing it to flash off, then apply a full coat, but avoid double-passes. Also, heating up the paint will help to lower the viscosity, which should take care of the orange peel problem. Additives such as Butyl Cellosolve would help to lower the surface tension and help eliminate the risk of pinholes in the finish, (assuming it's sprayed at the correct psi, mils, & at proper temps/viscosity).


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> After viewing the pic close-up, these appear to be pinholes you're experiencing, completely unrelated to contamination btw. My guess is the finish is being applied too heavy when sprayed flat, (at least given the temperatures you're working in). That would certainly explain the orange peel texture. You said the boxes you sprayed had no issues, probably due to you having to spray a little lighter to avoid runs.
> 
> Try first spraying a light dusting coat, allowing it to flash off, then apply a full coat, but avoid double-passes. Also, heating up the paint will help to lower the viscosity, which should take care of the orange peel problem. Additives such as Butyl Cellosolve would help to lower the surface tension and help eliminate the risk of pinholes in the finish, (assuming it's sprayed at the correct psi, mils, & at proper temps/viscosity).[/QUOTE
> 
> I agree with the description of the pinholes. Looking at the finish it does look like there was either too much or not enough paint. I don't believe it's a technique issue though, as I originally sprayed the doors vertically too, and only sprayed some flat after I was having the issue. I've finished a lot of doors and trim packs, and I've never seen paint laying out like it did on the doors. I tried running hot water on a gallon for 15-20 mins this morning similar to texture can, seems like it may have helped a little but not a drastic difference. Thank you for the info on the butyl Cellosolve I will look into that.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Not tacking off the dust from sanding could do that, also if you didn't clean your sprayer well enough. I've had that issue with cross contamination from hybrid products..I wipe my surfaces with microfibre cloths. I also run a little cleaner like eco tsp through my sprayer to scrub the lines between products..



fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks guys, I hadn't thought about the primer not drying. I smart Primed the night before and top-coated in the morning, it was at least 14 hrs between prime and top coat. Did a temp check this morning and it is in the low 60s in this garage, so I would have thought that would be far enough within the safe zone, but as my first boss liked to say, " painting can be a humbling trade sometimes" 😄.
> 
> Last night I started wondering if there was some sort of contamination in the line because of the smart Prime. I believe it is a hybrid similar to advance, and have read elsewhere on paint talk about Advance contaminating lines because of the alkyds. Hmm..
> 
> I'm fortunate to have some very gracious customers on this job, and they do not think it is necessary to recoat. I'm lucky this is a satin Sheen too.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thanks Kevyn. I remember reading on another thread you had said one of your machines was contaminated by Advance so I thought maybe the same thing happened with the smart prime. Only evidence against that is that the boxes inside the house sprayed out just fine. As far as the sanding goes I vacuumed the door, though I didn't actually tack off. The more I think the more it seems it was a temperature/viscosity issue like what you and several others were mentioning earlier. Thanks for all the feedback! Luckily that job is over and done with. For the most part it turned out good, but I knocked 10% off the bill and I can chalk one up to experience, as I am wanting to get more into the cabinet refinishing. Next time I'll get a good space heater.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Have you tried breakthrough primer ?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Never heard of breakthrough primer. Is the 250 the low Voc or older high voc? I tried the newer low voc once or twice but it was too thin and ran too much. Used their wrought iron black. Loved the high voc. Now using Scuff X. Guessing it was a temp / curing issue too. You got lucky they accepted it!!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks Kevyn. I remember reading on another thread you had said one of your machines was contaminated by Advance so I thought maybe the same thing happened with the smart prime. Only evidence against that is that the boxes inside the house sprayed out just fine. As far as the sanding goes I vacuumed the door, though I didn't actually tack off. The more I think the more it seems it was a temperature/viscosity issue like what you and several others were mentioning earlier. Thanks for all the feedback! Luckily that job is over and done with. For the most part it turned out good, but I knocked 10% off the bill and I can chalk one up to experience, as I am wanting to get more into the cabinet refinishing. Next time I'll get a good space heater.


Ya, the spray game can be stressful. Definitely more fickle than brush and roll. Prepwork and conditions need to be alot more optimal. If it's a small project with less than optimal conditions, brush and roll is sometimes a better option.
However, spraying cabinets for me has been a game changer. I have a space where the climate is somewhat controlled and rarely have any issues now. (knock on wood.)
Glad it worked out in the end.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, the spray game can be stressful. Definitely more fickle than brush and roll. Prepwork and conditions need to be alot more optimal. If it's a small project with less than optimal conditions, brush and roll is sometimes a better option.
> However, spraying cabinets for me has been a game changer. I have a space where the climate is somewhat controlled and rarely have any issues now. (knock on wood.)
> Glad it worked out in the end.


Of course you will now. :devil3:


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> Have you tried breakthrough primer ?


Repaint I have not heard of that one either? Is that your primer of choice?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Damon T said:


> Never heard of breakthrough primer. Is the 250 the low Voc or older high voc? I tried the newer low voc once or twice but it was too thin and ran too much. Used their wrought iron black. Loved the high voc. Now using Scuff X. Guessing it was a temp / curing issue too. You got lucky they accepted it!!


Yep I did get a bit lucky. Not that I like getting by on jobs by getting lucky, but it was appreciated this time. A lot of the doors look good, the pictured ones i posted were probably the worst. I told them if it ever starts to bother them and they want the doors re-shot I don't mind at all.


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## havepaintwilltravel (Jul 17, 2013)

couple things, breakthrough is sooo fast it cant lay down if it craters like that. i think its a mixture of too fine of a tip, too high of a temp, and im not sure your primer was thoroughly dry. Have you tried PPG wall and wood primer, its latex and sands as good as the old ez sand. If you keep having this problem maybe try a little xim latex extender - that should slow your dry time a tad, maybe enough for it to fix itself


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

havepaintwilltravel said:


> couple things, breakthrough is sooo fast it cant lay down if it craters like that. i think its a mixture of too fine of a tip, too high of a temp, and im not sure your primer was thoroughly dry. Have you tried PPG wall and wood primer, its latex and sands as good as the old ez sand. If you keep having this problem maybe try a little xim latex extender - that should slow your dry time a tad, maybe enough for it to fix itself


 I think you may have misread the OP. He said it was cold in his shop not hot.
A 310 FF tip is a great tip for spraying IMO. That's what I use. Although a paint conditioner/extender is a good idea also.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Here's a link to an post on 10/7/19 https://www.painttalk.com/f2/ppg-breakthrough-primer-van79-1-a-94903/

this primer works great for us , heavy bodied and sand easy. Bonds great only neg is it's not a stain blocker

if your painting doors white this is a must have as we all know white doesn't cover good


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> Here's a link to an post on 10/7/19 https://www.painttalk.com/f2/ppg-breakthrough-primer-van79-1-a-94903/
> 
> this primer works great for us , heavy bodied and sand easy. Bonds great only neg is it's not a stain blocker
> 
> if your painting doors white this is a must have as we all know white doesn't cover good


Interesting thread, thanks Repaint. I'll have to ask my store about getting a hold of some.
.
I had good luck using smart prime on a recent oak job. Tannins bled through the aqua lock like crazy, one coat of smart prime and all tannins gone. As far as adhesion, passed the scratch test, maybe not up to the standards of bin though. Still haven't sprayed much shellac and am hesitant to do it the customer's home, although I hear the smell dissipates quickly.

On a sort of related note I've tried stix on 2 separate occasions, and both times had major fisheye issues. Other primers did not have fisheye on same substrate. So as of now I'm going to skip the stix. Too bad as I've heard some have had good luck with this as a cabinet primer.


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## mDUB562 (Jul 31, 2012)

Most fish eyeing is caused by contamination. However, products molecules are much larger than they were in the past. Many of these products have a minimum tip size of .013 @ 2000 psi. If you overdue it the product will fish eye.


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## BristledPatina (Oct 10, 2019)

I’m in Kansas City and have been spraying a lot of Breakthrough. I experienced the same issue once. That one time was in the shop and I didn’t do enough to remove the particles after sanding/priming and coating. Had to make another pass with 220, then everything laid down fine. Since then, haven’t had any issues with the Breakthrough, but I’d be curious if anybody is thinning this stuff out. It’s already like water.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Well I finally had some time to do some experimenting. I haven't quite figured out the solution, but I've eliminated temperature (substrate/air being too cold) and contamination from smart prime. I'm actually suspecting that the packings on my pump are wearing out, causing fingering even at high levels, (spraying past 3 oclock with 308 fflp). Since this thread is probably dead I think I'll post this in another thread and see what people have to say


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I ran into this issue today. Sprayed Emerald over top of Aqua Lock. The boxes, doors and drawers look like the photos posted by the OP.

The sample I did last week was on the same doors, but I rolled Zinsser 123 on and had no issues. I switched to the aqua lock as a trial, since I didn't have enough Zinsser to fill the pump... 

Could it just be an incompatibility with the primer?

First picture is with the Zinsser, second is the Aqua Lock.

Update: I sprayed a third coat on my Zinsser doors. I'm having the same issue! I lightly sanded them and wiped them with the same damp rag... Maybe something in the sandpaper or the rag?


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## vwbowman (May 15, 2017)

I had an experience with a customer of mine that was getting results that looked just like your picture. It came down to reducing the pressure and moving the further away from the surface. They were used to staying about 8-10 inches off the surface and with waterborne, being that close put air into each coat. Moving back to between 12 - 14 inches solved the issue.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I'm at the correct pressure, as far as eliminating tails... I don't think it was the distance, either. I've done a butt load of spraying in factories, etc. My arm is like a robot.

I will try some scraps of wood and see if your suggestion helps, though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> I'm at the correct pressure, as far as eliminating tails... I don't think it was the distance, either. I've done a butt load of spraying in factories, etc. My arm is like a robot.
> 
> I will try some scraps of wood and see if your suggestion helps, though.


Personally I would use a dry rag instead of a damp rag. I always feel like water leaves a residue. Man those look horrible. lol. Maybe you dripped some robot grease on it.:biggrin:


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Masterwork said:
> 
> 
> > I'm at the correct pressure, as far as eliminating tails... I don't think it was the distance, either. I've done a butt load of spraying in factories, etc. My arm is like a robot.
> ...


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