# semi-gloss garage walls and ceilings



## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

I suspect its going to be a while until I have anything to add to this forum except panicked requests for advice. Thanks everyone who answered my last post about filling in the knots on the wood paneling. Never even got a chance to try the BIN as the homeowner decided to tear it all out instead and start from the drywall. its a long and sordid story.

What I've got now is a 2 door garage/workshop .30 x 14. Taller ceiling, 10 or 12 feet? I haven't measured, taller than I can reach without getting a longer wand. New construction. I have been on my own about six months now and do a really good cut and roll, I have cut and rolled a similar garage before. with good results. not as tall of a ceiling though. 

I do not have a lot of experience with the airless sprayer. I have sprayed quite a bit of primer for the contractor I worked for but he treated finish coats like it was building an atomic bomb and always did it himself. ,

I got a good deal on a pump and picked one up, its been sitting in my shed for a couple months. and this garage seemed like the perfect opportunity to get some experience. Except. The HO is insisting on semi gloss. I was counting on backrolling everything to make up for any beginners mistakes I more than likely will make. But my Sherwin dealer is telling me "DO NOT back roll this semi gloss, it will make a big mess" - He is trying to get me to try a new brand and he paid for half of it to get me to try it out. He said. This is made for doors and trim but it will work fine for what you are doing. 

So. Am I just cruising for a bruising here? Why wouldn't i be able to backroll semi-gloss? Is my mistake trying to use a new product that i haven't used before? I dont have any experience spraying semi gloss on walls anyway, only on doors and trim.

Any advice on spraying semi gloss on ceilings and walls would be appreciated. Do I need to find a semi gloss that is tolerant of backrolling? is there such a thing? When I have sprayed trims and doors I use a smaller tip, can I safely step up to to a larger tip with semi gloss on walls? Also, I have a scaffolding that I can use to reach the ceiling with the wand I have, but would you recommend getting a longer wand so i can do it from the floor? Should I call the University and see how many more credits I need to finish my Social Work degree?

I am slightly freaking out. I know I have a tendency to overthink things but.. This is a small community and the HO is a prominant Physician . If I do a good job it could turn into a lot of references. If I mess it up, i will probably move to the next town over.

Ive got it all masked off and ready to spry the primer tomorrow morning, when it warms up a little


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I don't know why they are telling you not to backroll SG...I never backrolled SW SG, but never had any problems with other SG. The main ones I have experience being BM AguaGlo and SuperSpec. 

You may want to use a bit dryer tip than you would with flat....515 should work. And keep your gun moving , especially in the corners. The SG will not dry as fast and may sag/run a bit easier if you get too much buildup in the corners. You will have to pay a little more attention to feathering off your roller when nearing the edges, otherwise the small area that doesn't get backrolled may be noticable. A "hatbanding effect" if you will. This tends to vary with paint used. And with a SG paint, always 2 coats over the primer,overnight dry between coats.

A six foot pole gun is nice to have on such jobs, and something you probably should invest in. But it's not too difficult spaying 3 foot up a step ladder with a 3 foot gun. I'd actually rather do this than bother with a scaffold in this particular instance.. Quicker than continually moving scaffold. Even if your "surfing" your scaffold.

Stay calm, it's not a big deal. Error on the side of keeping the coats on the light side until you gain more experience.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

How about you just roll it??


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

MikeCalifornia said:


> How about you just roll it??


At the risk of giving TMI. Which I will anyway because thats what I do. 

He specifically asked me to spray it. I mentioned this morning that I just might roll it and he said "No , NO, I like the spray finish" . I know I made a couple of customer relations mistakes here. But, my relationship with him is a bit complicated. He is a friend of the family and he is really doing me a solid giving me this job. 
When he said he would rather I spray it I said "Yes sir" . I admit he intimidated me. Which doesn't happen often with customers. its , this guy. Doctors know how to do that , especially doctors who know my somewhat rocky person history.

Also I want to gain experience with the pump.

now
He is leaving town on moday. so I suppose I could just tell him tomorrow that the primer needs more time to dry and then come in monday and roll it . I have been using flotral and the sherwin equivelent with good effect to get very smooth semi gloss finish with a roller.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> This tends to vary with paint used. And with a SG paint, always 2 coats over the primer,overnight dry between coats.
> 
> 
> 
> Stay calm, it's not a big deal. Error on the side of keeping the coats on the light side until you gain more experience.


Do I need to wait overnight for the primer to dry before the first SG coat?

Thanks for reply , very helpful


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Firstly, get a couple fans for help with drying the paint. 
Spray primer with a 513-515 tip. If it’s problock primer you can use the 513, if it’s a heavy bodied primer the 515 or 517 thinned a bit with water should be fine. Fan dry to the touch and let dry overnight until the next morning. 
Spray paint with the 513, fan dry between coats. Don’t go heavy, just coat it. Spray 2nd coat when dry to touch or next day. 
You’ll figure out the gun pretty quick. Just keep it moving. 
That’s what I’d do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

DittonWilson said:


> Do I need to wait overnight for the primer to dry before the first SG coat?
> 
> Thanks for reply , very helpful


Most primers you can coat within an hour or two. its ok to do the primer and one coat of SG. Wait overnight to do second coat of SG. In case Juan's suggestion of a 513 tip to finish confuses you....this is more personal preference. try both a 513 and 515 and see which you like best.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I would use a good quality flat in the color as the primer coat, wait a few hours, topcoat once with the SG. If its new texture, it'll soak up the flat. I've done hundreds of houses that way, and I used a 619 to put it on. Always came out great, as long as the paint quality is good.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodco said:


> I would use a good quality flat in the color as the primer coat, wait a few hours, topcoat once with the SG. If its new texture, it'll soak up the flat. I've done hundreds of houses that way, and I used a 619 to put it on. Always came out great, as long as the paint quality is good.


You don't think a .019 orifice is a bit wet ? And 2 coats SG to ensure an even sheen??? Keeping in mind the poster has little experience....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Where's futtyos?

He would suggest at least a coat of GARDZ under that semigloss for sheen hold out. I tend to agree with him.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

619 for a first timer would turn that place into a dripping rain forest!
But for a slamma bamma garage, I’d be good with a primer tinted to topcoat color, and 1 finish coat. It’s just a garage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I think a good primer like BM 253 is fine....but GARDZ wouldn't hurt. Just have to put up with that nasty smell.

Just a garage....but might as well do a good job while you're at it.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*If I were doing this I'd........*



CApainter said:


> Where's futtyos?
> 
> He would suggest at least a coat of GARDZ under that semigloss for sheen hold out. I tend to agree with him.


I am a big fan of Gardz, especially on NC and skim coats. However, I don't spray, so I have no experience in spraying Gardz onto NC or spraying paint over a coat or 2 of sprayed Gardz. THe only one here that I have read about who has sprayed Gardz on NC (on garage walls as well!) is Woodco, and he did not seem to have a good experience with spraying Gardz as I recall.

If I was trying to sell the job to the physician I might point out to him that the shinier the paint, the more likely that it will show up imperfections in the ceiling and walls and that there is a good chance that the drywallers and tapers might not have paid as much attention to their work in a garage as they would on interior work. 

What I would suggest to him is rolling 2 coats of Gardz (the 2nd coat goes on twice as fast as the 1st coat) over the ceilings and walls, then roll 2 coats of SG over that and call it a day. I would explain to him that Gardz seals the surface of the drywall and mud so that I could get an even sheen on the SG as there would not be any porous areas to soak up the SG and make it look dull compared to the rest of the surface. 

If he was insistant on a sprayed finish I might get a 2x2 section of drywall and roll both the Gardz and SG out on it with Wooster micro plush mini 5/16" rollers and let him see the finished product. The stipple should be at a minimum and yet it will aid in hiding imperfections. I might also explain to him what a level 5 finish is, that that would be the best finish for large areas of SG and that it would be very expensive to do as it requires extra work to guarantee a perfectly uniform surface to prime and paint.

If the HO was dead set on having it sprayed, I would either be coming here to ask you guys about it or I would find a contractor that was proficient at spraying and knew how to get an even finish with SG. Based on what Woodco said about spraying Gardz before spraying paint, I would be hesitant to do the same thing myself.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

If you prime it with Gardz it'll smell like a high school gym locker room, not a garage.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

The good doctor wanting the aesthetic of a sprayed finish is interesting. Does he realize you'll be backrolling? I would want a bit of texture in the finish to help hide imperfections. As futtyos suggested, probably not a level 5 drywall finish in a garage. Very likely seams may show without backrolling, especially SG. Use whatever short nap roller you prefer, as long as it's a good one.

I'm all for using the sprayer.....be a good job to gain experience on, and will be quicker. Especially the ceiling....much quicker.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

futtyos said:


> I am a big fan of Gardz, especially on NC and skim coats. However, I don't spray, so I have no experience in spraying Gardz onto NC or spraying paint over a coat or 2 of sprayed Gardz. THe only one here that I have read about who has sprayed Gardz on NC (on garage walls as well!) is Woodco, and he did not seem to have a good experience with spraying Gardz as I recall.
> 
> If I was trying to sell the job to the physician I might point out to him that the shinier the paint, the more likely that it will show up imperfections in the ceiling and walls and that there is a good chance that the drywallers and tapers might not have paid as much attention to their work in a garage as they would on interior work.
> 
> ...


Ok. Did a little research on the Gardz and i will keep it in mind for the future. Specifically seems formulated for problem surfaces, which this is not, at least I dont think so . The drywallers did a fine job , it has a nice texture. We can talk about gardz later though. To the problem at hand

I know that you mentioned you dont spray , so . 
I sprayed a coat of PVA primer to the entire garage today . 515 tip I was somewhat disappointed with the uniformity of the coating as 1. as I mentioned before I dont have a lot of experience with a pump, but , I do understand the basics / 50/50 etc. 2 . It was very problematic to try and get an even coat while climbing up and down a ladder. I could only do half one side of the ceiling before I had to move the ladder and move to the other half. Same with the walls.. Had to do the bottom to where I could reach and then climb the ladder and finish the top half.

We will see how the primer coat looks tomorrow , but the way it looked when I left struck the fear of god into me knowing that there is no way I can get a uniform coat of SG climbing up and down ladders and trying to keep a uniform coat. 

The good Dr is leaving town tomorrow and will be gone to south america for the whole week. . I told sherwin that I do NOT want anything that cannot be backrolled. We went with Promar 200 hp.

Looking at how spotty my primer spraying went today I am considering either using the pump and backrolling. or just straight up rolling it with my 18 inch roller. 

I am confident that I can do a good job with the walls rolling it out like this. The ceiling, I have all week so i will do it twice or thrice if i have to to give it a uniform look. 

heck . I might just try spraying it for practice knowing that I plan on coming back with a roller to make it look right. 

Any tips on rolling out ceilings? its all one color. I have used both corner rollers in the past, and mini rollers for the edges and ceilings.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

juanvaldez said:


> Firstly, get a couple fans for help with drying the paint.
> Spray primer with a 513-515 tip. If it’s problock primer you can use the 513, if it’s a heavy bodied primer the 515 or 517 thinned a bit with water should be fine. Fan dry to the touch and let dry overnight until the next morning.
> Spray paint with the 513, fan dry between coats. Don’t go heavy, just coat it. Spray 2nd coat when dry to touch or next day.
> You’ll figure out the gun pretty quick. Just keep it moving.
> ...


Used the 515 for the primer and it looked uneven due to having to climb up and down the ladder and being able to reach only half of the wall and ceiling at a time. I might try the 513 and see how it looks, but I think I have decided to at least backroll it to get a uniform finish


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

MikeCalifornia said:


> How about you just roll it??


Its looking like thats what I am going to end up doing. I usually use an 18 inch roller for stuff like this. what do you use for the corners?


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Yea you have to move quickly to keep a wet edge so it dries evenly. Backrolling is good especially if there’s texture you can really push the primer into the surface. If it’s a smooth surface then use a low nap roller 3/8 microfiber works good. If texture then 1/2”-9/16” micro. 
Since you’ve already primed maybe just back roll the first coat and not the finish coat. 
Oh and uh, let’s see some pics of this project! Or it didn’t happen....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

juanvaldez said:


> Yea you have to move quickly to keep a wet edge so it dries evenly. Backrolling is good especially if there’s texture you can really push the primer into the surface. If it’s a smooth surface then use a low nap roller 3/8 microfiber works good. If texture then 1/2”-9/16” micro.
> Since you’ve already primed maybe just back roll the first coat and not the finish coat.
> Oh and uh, let’s see some pics of this project! Or it didn’t happen....
> 
> ...


Its pretty smooth but still textured. This is the closest I could find to what it looks like
https://imgur.com/WhMMgBN

I will send some pics on monday.
In the meantime, here's an airbnb I did this summer. HO just put the advert up. looks pretty good if i do say so myself.
https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/38250348?source_impression_id=p3_1573965431_zdMdD+9BbAXZ71Uw


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

The first coat of many types of coatings will tend to look uneven on new drywall. Not backrolling , at least the primer, is a mistake. IMO


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> The first coat of many types of coatings will tend to look uneven on new drywall. Not backrolling , at least the primer, is a mistake. IMO


One of the best PT arguments given for back rolling smooth walls, rather than leaving a sprayed finish, is the ability to touch up without it standing out like a rash on a baby's butt. Especially given the application is in a garage. We all know how those walls will look after awhile.

I actually switched from a brushed finish to a tight weenie roller finish on doors in industrial settings because of the necessity to touch up.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Pva?*



DittonWilson said:


> Ok. Did a little research on the Gardz and i will keep it in mind for the future. Specifically seems formulated for problem surfaces, which this is not, at least I dont think so . The drywallers did a fine job , it has a nice texture. We can talk about gardz later though. To the problem at hand
> 
> I know that you mentioned you dont spray , so .
> I sprayed a coat of PVA primer to the entire garage today . 515 tip I was somewhat disappointed with the uniformity of the coating as 1. as I mentioned before I dont have a lot of experience with a pump, but , I do understand the basics / 50/50 etc. 2 . It was very problematic to try and get an even coat while climbing up and down a ladder. I could only do half one side of the ceiling before I had to move the ladder and move to the other half. Same with the walls.. Had to do the bottom to where I could reach and then climb the ladder and finish the top half.
> ...


Why did you prime with PVA? That is a product I would NEVER use. Gardz is probably the best sealer for NC as well as skim coats. The good news is you can probably still put Gardz over that PVA mess as it will soak through that cheap ineffective primer and give you a good surface to get an even sheen with your SG.

futtyos


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Futtyos is right on the money there!!! Just eliminate PVA from your vocabulary.

But in my mind, it's hard to go wrong with BM 253 for most new drywall work.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

DittonWilson said:


> Ok. Did a little research on the Gardz and i will keep it in mind for the future. Specifically seems formulated for problem surfaces, which this is not, at least I dont think so . The drywallers did a fine job , it has a nice texture. We can talk about gardz later though. To the problem at hand
> 
> I know that you mentioned you dont spray , so .
> I sprayed a coat of PVA primer to the entire garage today . 515 tip I was somewhat disappointed with the uniformity of the coating as 1. as I mentioned before I dont have a lot of experience with a pump, but , I do understand the basics / 50/50 etc. 2 . It was very problematic to try and get an even coat while climbing up and down a ladder. I could only do half one side of the ceiling before I had to move the ladder and move to the other half. Same with the walls.. Had to do the bottom to where I could reach and then climb the ladder and finish the top half.
> ...



Falling into the same trap as many painters. _Just a garage so use cheap primer and paint._ Look at much your having to fight the product to make it look half decent! Use a decent drywall primer and a good topcoat. Promar200HP... ultraspec just blows it away, no comparison.

Get rid of the PVA crap whatever you do!


Superspec253 + ultraspec500 going to be like night and day. You won't have any issues spray and backroll.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Futtyos is right on the money there!!! Just eliminate PVA from your vocabulary.
> 
> But in my mind, it's hard to go wrong with BM 253 for most new drywall work.



253 is the bees knees. Its a bit higher solids version of superhide 284. 1 Hour recoat too. Both spray great and don't sting your eyeballs like the 100% acrylic primers.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I still believe PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate, rather than Poly Vinyl Acrylic) is an appropriate "treatment" for bare joint compound, because it is compatible with not only the high pH, but also the PVA binder found in the joint compound. However, it shouldn't be relied on solely as an undercoat for subsequent finish coats.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

CApainter said:


> I still believe PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate, rather than Poly Vinyl Acrylic) is an appropriate "treatment" for bare joint compound, because it is compatible with not only the high pH, but also the PVA binder found in the joint compound. However, it shouldn't be relied on solely as an undercoat for subsequent finish coats.



Pretty much all acrylic primers are 'compatible' with joint compound. PVA isn't rated for any higher pH than 253, maximum pH 10, just for example.


BM doesn't even bother to manufacture a PVA if that tells you anything.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Go with Gardz*



futtyos said:


> Why did you prime with PVA? That is a product I would NEVER use. Gardz is probably the best sealer for NC as well as skim coats. The good news is you can probably still put Gardz over that PVA mess as it will soak through that cheap ineffective primer and give you a good surface to get an even sheen with your SG.
> 
> futtyos


DittonWilson, there have been several posts since I broke bad on PVA that mention other primers to use that would be better than PVA. My advice, since you have already applied PVA to the ceilings and walls is to go over the PVA with Gardz. Gardz is much thinner than any primer and will actually soak into, harden and seal the PVA so that you will get a uniform coat with your SG. Good luck!

futtyos


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> The first coat of many types of coatings will tend to look uneven on new drywall. Not backrolling , at least the primer, is a mistake. IMO


I went and checked it this morning. It just looked uneven because it was still drying. looks very even now that it has had time to dry


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

futtyos said:


> Why did you prime with PVA? That is a product I would NEVER use. Gardz is probably the best sealer for NC as well as skim coats. The good news is you can probably still put Gardz over that PVA mess as it will soak through that cheap ineffective primer and give you a good surface to get an even sheen with your SG.
> 
> futtyos


Just reply to everyone that has asked about the PVA here. I used PVA because it is what both contractors I have worked for use on new construction. I didn't give it second thought because thats just what they always have had me use on new construction drywall. I have never had anyone, contractors or suppliers suggest another option. I am learning quickly that I have to figure out and research myself if I want to do a quality job.

I went and checked on the job today and the PVA coat looks pretty damn good. The streaks and uneveness was just because it was still drying and soaking . I dont see any tape lines or imperfections at all. 

The gardz has been recommended enough that I will probably follow your advice and put a coat on over the PVA. Whats the point of asking for advice here if I am not going to follow it? I will definitely go this route in the future.

My question though. What are the drawbacks to just finishing this job with a coat or two of the SG? The PVA will effect my ability to get an even sheen ?
Down the road it will fail in some way? 

What qualities does the PVA have that makes it undesirable?


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Falling into the same trap as many painters. _Just a garage so use cheap primer and paint._ Look at much your having to fight the product to make it look half decent! Use a decent drywall primer and a good topcoat. Promar200HP... ultraspec just blows it away, no comparison.
> 
> Get rid of the PVA crap whatever you do!
> 
> ...


Its not a question of the price. Its simply that I am ignorant. As i explained to futyos , its that both contractors I worked for use Sherwin for supply and PVA is just what they always have me use. I have not used Benjiman Moore for supply and although there is a supply shop here it is very small and the actual owner is never there. Its always collage girls behind the register who cant actually tell me anything about the product , and why I would be better off switching to them from sherwin..

Its just the inertia and me not knowing any better. AND the fact that I take the Sherwin salesmans advice a lot of the time. They have worked pretty hard to keep me as a customer and very rarely have said anything like "This is a more expensive and high quality product but you will get better results from it"
It is definitely becoming clear that the contractors I have worked for both seem to have used crappy cheap paint. Having never used anything else I dont have any way to compare quality vs crap.

I definitely want to set myself apart by using better product, and doing a better job.
That is one reason I went out on my own is because i was tired of the guys I worked for insisting that I do less than the best. "Its a Chevy not a Cadillac " they always say. And thats not product. Thats detail, cutting corners as far as prep , caulking. etc. 

I will definitely be experimenting with the products you guys have been mentioning. 
PVA, no good. Got it. 
That being said. What are the drawbacks to me finishing this job with a coat or two of SG over the PVA. I put a pretty good coat on it and when I stopped and checked it out today to make sure my heater was still on I was impressed with how good it looks. I dont see any tape lines or anything else. it looks good.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

CApainter said:


> One of the best PT arguments given for back rolling smooth walls, rather than leaving a sprayed finish, is the ability to touch up without it standing out like a rash on a baby's butt. Especially given the application is in a garage. We all know how those walls will look after awhile.
> 
> I actually switched from a brushed finish to a tight weenie roller finish on doors in industrial settings because of the necessity to touch up.



You used a brush to finish doors in the past? I have been using a weenie roller on doors and trim for a while. With a little additive like flotrol, with really good results. 

But the general attitude I get around here from contractors and homeowners is that a spray finish on trims and doors is smoother and more desirable.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Futtyos is right on the money there!!! Just eliminate PVA from your vocabulary.
> 
> But in my mind, it's hard to go wrong with BM 253 for most new drywall work.


In a broader reply to the advice I have got in this thread. Sherwin is THE paint store in this town and its just where everyone goes to get supplies. As I explained the BM shop is very small and I have not been able to talk to anyone there that can showcase their products. 

Do any of you guys use Sherwin? Does Sherwin carry any quality paints are primers that are comparable with the BM products you are recommending. Is the general opinion here that BM products are higher quality?

Do you guys all own BM shops and this is a slick advertising campaign ? :smile:


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> The first coat of many types of coatings will tend to look uneven on new drywall. Not backrolling , at least the primer, is a mistake. IMO


Ok. I wasn't going to reply to every post here but , why backroll the primer? This is something the contractor I worked for did on some jobs that were important to him (churches). But I don't understand how backrolling an undercoat helps for a better finish coat.

As I mentioned before. This is the first job I have used the spray pump on, usually I do roll everything out. Most guys I have worked for / or with insisted that I would not be able to get consistent even ceilings with a roller and that spraying ceilings is really the ONLY way to go.
My experience hasn't been that this is true though

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Its all very very helpful.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

The main thing your looking for in a new drywall primer is ability to seal and promote good holdout (preventing flashing). PVA will do this, to a point, but not near as well as a quality primer/sealer....again, I can't overstate how great BM 253 is !!!

Your former employers used PVA because its cheap. That's the only reason anybody would use PVA, given all of the superior alternatives. The huge difference in price should be enough to tell anyone that much.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

DittonWilson said:


> Ok. I wasn't going to reply to every post here but , why backroll the primer? This is something the contractor I worked for did on some jobs that were important to him (churches). But I don't understand how backrolling an undercoat helps for a better finish coat.
> 
> As I mentioned before. This is the first job I have used the spray pump on, usually I do roll everything out. Most guys I have worked for / or with insisted that I would not be able to get consistent even ceilings with a roller and that spraying ceilings is really the ONLY way to go.
> My experience hasn't been that this is true though
> ...


Backroll everything, ceilings included. As has already been mentioned, should touch up be necessary, it's darned near impossible to do so on a surface that has not been backrolled.

As for backrolling primer...very important. It pushes the primer into the pores of the drywall and mud, ensuring proper adhesion. I've seen delamination of paint due to spraying without properly cleaning dust from drywall, in jobs where the primer was not backrolled. The primer is applied to dusty drywall, sits on top of a barrier of dust, and drys. Any paint applied to this primer is sitting atop a layer of primer not properly bonded to the drywall. When tape is applied to that paint and then remove, big chunks of paint/primer will pull off along with the tape. Look at the backside of that chunk of primer/paint....you'll probably be able to see and feel the dust. I have seen this to a lesser degree in jobs where the walls were cleaned and the paint backrolled, but is always limited to the ceiling/wall interface and corners, where the dust may have not been cleaned off and the area not backrolled . So it always pays to be certain the corners are clean. But backrolling, even on a wall that has not been dusted properly, will "mix" the dust with the primer, and push the primer into the pores. This, while not ideal, will at least provide a much better bond than simply spraying and not backrolling.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Pretty much all acrylic primers are 'compatible' with joint compound. PVA isn't rated for any higher pH than 253, maximum pH 10, just for example.
> 
> 
> BM doesn't even bother to manufacture a PVA if that tells you anything.


Most PVA's these days are Polyvinyl Vinyl Acrylics. That's a given. But that doesn't mean if someone has access to and uses a Poly Vinyl Acetate, that they've breached a painting best practice. If anything, they've appropriately applied a substrate specific primer/sealer. And that's a good thing.

Poly Vinyl Acrylic primers are basically the same thing as the rest of the multi purpose products out there. They are simply designed to eliminate steps in the painting process.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DittonWilson said:


> You used a brush to finish doors in the past? I have been using a weenie roller on doors and trim for a while. With a little additive like flotrol, with really good results.
> 
> But the general attitude I get around here from contractors and homeowners is that a spray finish on trims and doors is smoother and more desirable.


Yes Grasshopper. I had to learn how to lay off a door with a China bristle, or face the prospect of a criminal career back in the mean streets of the SF Bay Area. That was the expectation of a painter worth their salt in the 1980's


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> Yes Grasshopper. I had to learn how to lay off a door with a China bristle, or face the prospect of a criminal career back in the mean streets of the SF Bay Area. That was the expectation of a painter worth their salt in the 1980's


Feel the brush....be the brush....:vs_karate:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

CApainter said:


> Most PVA's these days are Polyvinyl Vinyl Acrylics. That's a given. But that doesn't mean if someone has access to and uses a Poly Vinyl Acetate, that they've breached a painting best practice. If anything, they've appropriately applied a substrate specific primer/sealer. And that's a good thing.
> 
> Poly Vinyl Acrylic primers are basically the same thing as the rest of the multi purpose products out there. They are simply designed to eliminate steps in the painting process.



Know what else is PV(Acetate)? White Elmers glue. PVA's only cause headaches. No reason to use them at all when basically _anything_ else is better.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Backroll everything, ceilings included. As has already been mentioned, should touch up be necessary, it's darned near impossible to do so on a surface that has not been backrolled.
> 
> As for backrolling primer...very important. It pushes the primer into the pores of the drywall and mud, ensuring proper adhesion. I've seen delamination of paint due to spraying without properly cleaning dust from drywall, in jobs where the primer was not backrolled. The primer is applied to dusty drywall, sits on top of a barrier of dust, and drys. Any paint applied to this primer is sitting atop a layer of primer not properly bonded to the drywall. When tape is applied to that paint and then remove, big chunks of paint/primer will pull off along with the tape. Look at the backside of that chunk of primer/paint....you'll probably be able to see and feel the dust. I have seen this to a lesser degree in jobs where the walls were cleaned and the paint backrolled, but is always limited to the ceiling/wall interface and corners, where the dust may have not been cleaned off and the area not backrolled . So it always pays to be certain the corners are clean. But backrolling, even on a wall that has not been dusted properly, will "mix" the dust with the primer, and push the primer into the pores. This, while not ideal, will at least provide a much better bond than simply spraying and not backrolling.



Textured walls dont have dust on them. Not that Im saying it shouldnt be backrolled.....


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Textured walls dont have dust on them. Not that Im saying it shouldnt be backrolled.....


I don't recalling seeing the OP saying anything about textured walls???

If that is just a random comment you are throwing out there, why yes, you are correct.

In the NE textured walls are so rare, I barely give them a thought. I realize in your area they are the norm.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

DittonWilson said:


> You used a brush to finish doors in the past? I have been using a weenie roller on doors and trim for a while. With a little additive like flotrol, with really good results.
> 
> But the general attitude I get around here from contractors and homeowners is that a spray finish on trims and doors is smoother and more desirable.


While generally I agree a sprayed door looks best, especially on cookie cutter smooth steel entry doors, there is more than one exception to this rule. The determining factor being the architecture. If a farmhouse, rustic log building, or other olde timey building, I'd rather see brush marks. Albeit controlled brush marks....keeping them in the lines of the styles, rails and panels. On a smooth door this takes more skill than spraying, but when executed properly looks better. And of course doors with a grain pattern from the factory make getting a brush finish as good as sprayed pretty easy. Although I'm guilty of loving to spray doors, I must admit there are many times I've sprayed doors, in the interest of production, when I felt a nice brush finish was appropriate.

I've seen a few doors done with auto paint and done to auto specs...unless on an ultra modern building, these just look weird. They are about the smoothest door finish obtainable, they just don't look right. So, sometimes smooth is too smooth.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Post #20*



Lightningboy65 said:


> I don't recalling seeing the OP saying anything about textured walls???
> 
> If that is just a random comment you are throwing out there, why yes, you are correct.
> 
> In the NE textured walls are so rare, I barely give them a thought. I realize in your area they are the norm.


Ltb65, check out Ditton Wilson's post #20. He has a link to a photo of what looks similar to the walls he is dealing with.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Primer/sealer for a garage in Idaho*



Woodco said:


> Textured walls dont have dust on them. Not that Im saying it shouldnt be backrolled.....


Good point, Woodco. I am wondering what the best primer/sealer would be for a garage in Idaho. I would imagine that there is a pretty wide swing of temperatures there throughout the year.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Know what else is PV(Acetate)? White Elmers glue. PVA's only cause headaches. No reason to use them at all when basically _anything_ else is better.


What's wrong with Elmers Glue, what did he ever do to you? He was Elsie's husband and a good father. 
https://images.app.goo.gl/5c3tM7Gr1ws1fJoM6


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

futtyos said:


> Ltb65, check out Ditton Wilson's post #20. He has a link to a photo of what looks similar to the walls he is dealing with.
> 
> futtyos


Well, that one snuck by me....thanks for setting me straight. I agree with Woodco, in this case dust wouldn't play much of a factor. Carry on...:wink:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

futtyos said:


> Good point, Woodco. I am wondering what the best primer/sealer would be for a garage in Idaho. I would imagine that there is a pretty wide swing of temperatures there throughout the year.
> 
> futtyos


...and you need to worry about temps while drying this time of year. I've painted more than one new garage in the winter that has experienced paint freezing in the areas immediately adjacent to the overhead doors, even though heating the garage. This area tends to stay pretty cold, especially in the latter part of winter. Peeling paint due to freezing, a foot or so from these openings, is not uncommon. Especially if those areas are corners.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> ...and you need to worry about temps while drying this time of year. I've painted more than one new garage in the winter that has experienced paint freezing in the areas immediately adjacent to the overhead doors, even though heating the garage. This area tends to stay pretty cold, especially in the latter part of winter. Peeling paint due to freezing, a foot or so from these openings, is not uncommon. Especially if those areas are corners.





Not only that but you paint needs to come up to room temp before applying .Shouldn't have your paint sitting in the bed of your truck all morning when its 35 .


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> What's wrong with Elmers Glue, what did he ever do to you? He was Elsie's husband and a good father.
> https://images.app.goo.gl/5c3tM7Gr1ws1fJoM6


It was like a cross examination from Raymond Burr.

*Coco-* "On the evening of November 17th, were you aware that PVA was also found in the Elmers Glue lying next to Mrs. Collette's body?"

*Me-* "Uh..I...uh...

*Defense Attorney- *"Objection! Intimidating the witness your honor."

*Judge-* "Over ruled" "Please answer the question" 

*Me- *"Well,..uh.. I did know that the binders shared something in common with the joint compound binder, but I uh... Alright! I DID IT! I'm sorry...sob...sob...sob


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

futtyos said:


> Good point, Woodco. I am wondering what the best primer/sealer would be for a garage in Idaho. I would imagine that there is a pretty wide swing of temperatures there throughout the year.
> 
> futtyos


Doxed myself! realized as soon as i posted the link. Don't get me started on "Idaho Painter" . I refuse to watch any of his youtube vids until he takes that 100$ brush out of his online store.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Plaster Weld and Plaster Bond*



cocomonkeynuts said:


> Know what else is PV(Acetate)? White Elmers glue. PVA's only cause headaches. No reason to use them at all when basically _anything_ else is better.


That may be, but don't these 2 products have their place?

http://www.larsenproducts.com/plaster-weld-2/

https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/en/products/walls/drywall/plasters/plaster-bonder.161200.html

futtyos


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Not only that but you paint needs to come up to room temp before applying .Shouldn't have your paint sitting in the bed of your truck all morning when its 35 .


It's been unseasonably warm luckily . Paint still comes into the living room at night though . Learned that lesson the hard way.


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

I will take the advice and ditch the PVA in the future , but it looked good enough this morning that I went with it for this job. Sprayed and backrolled semi gloss coat. It was 46 degrees outside but I have had a heater running and it was warm enough for short sleeves in the garage. SG was kept in my living room last night . 

Everything looks great and I am feeling much more confident with the spray pump. looks great, er, except for one spot. near the attic entrance . its the closeup in the picture. Not sure why it looks spotty there, maybe got sloppy and missed that spot with the backrolling. 

I am going to go ahead and do another semi gloss coat tomorrow. I have enough paint and I have the time. I can say with confidence that the contractors I have worked for would call it good and pack it in . I think I want 2 coats though. 

Thanks everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it. It has taken a bit of courage, or perhaps desperation, to come clean here with the extent of my ignorance. :smile: I'll take your advice with the product choice on the next job and let you know what I think . 

computer is still hanging up trying to attach pics. so Im just going to use imgur again. It was kind of hard to get good light for pictures, but I am pretty happy with it. except for the one weird spot near the attic. There is a picture of that in the last link. 

https://imgur.com/6sx21an

https://imgur.com/kJ9Nfbr

https://imgur.com/TbYRC7S

https://imgur.com/AoFlXAp


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Forgive my ignorance, but....*



DittonWilson said:


> I will take the advice and ditch the PVA in the future , but it looked good enough this morning that I went with it for this job. Sprayed and backrolled semi gloss coat. It was 46 degrees outside but I have had a heater running and it was warm enough for short sleeves in the garage. SG was kept in my living room last night .
> 
> Everything looks great and I am feeling much more confident with the spray pump. looks great, er, except for one spot. near the attic entrance . its the closeup in the picture. Not sure why it looks spotty there, maybe got sloppy and missed that spot with the backrolling.
> 
> ...


DittonWilson, I do not spray myself, so I cannot comment about how this job looks, although it does look good to me. 

My question for anyone here is this: with the ceiling and walls textured as much as can be seen in Ditton's photos, why would just rolling 2 even coats with an appropriate napped roller sleave work just as well as spraying and backrolling? Does spraying and backrolling take that much less time than just rolling, at least on a job of this size? I would have to imagine that after all the fooling around with the sprayer - setting it up, spraying a coat, backrolling it, then cleaning the sprayer out - one would have spent as much or more time than just carefully rolling just one coat. Is enough time saved by not having to cut in? Since I don't have experience spraying and backrolling, I don't know the answer to this question.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

DittonWilson said:


> I will take the advice and ditch the PVA in the future , but it looked good enough this morning that I went with it for this job. Sprayed and backrolled semi gloss coat. It was 46 degrees outside but I have had a heater running and it was warm enough for short sleeves in the garage. SG was kept in my living room last night .
> 
> Everything looks great and I am feeling much more confident with the spray pump. looks great, er, except for one spot. near the attic entrance . its the closeup in the picture. Not sure why it looks spotty there, maybe got sloppy and missed that spot with the backrolling.
> 
> ...


It looks very acceptable seeing that you're going over a textured surface, and this a is frickin garage, NOT the Taj Mahal.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> DittonWilson, I do not spray myself, so I cannot comment about how this job looks, although it does look good to me.
> 
> My question for anyone here is this: with the ceiling and walls textured as much as can be seen in Ditton's photos, why would just rolling 2 even coats with an appropriate napped roller sleave work just as well as spraying and backrolling? Does spraying and backrolling take that much less time than just rolling, at least on a job of this size? I would have to imagine that after all the fooling around with the sprayer - setting it up, spraying a coat, backrolling it, then cleaning the sprayer out - one would have spent as much or more time than just carefully rolling just one coat. Is enough time saved by not having to cut in? Since I don't have experience spraying and backrolling, I don't know the answer to this question.
> 
> futtyos


Yes. It is far faster.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

DittonWilson said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice. I really appreciate it. It has taken a bit of courage, or perhaps desperation, to come clean here with the extent of my ignorance. :smile:


The old saying "the only stupid question is an unasked question" really does ring true. Smart people know when they need to ask questions, and ask them. Idiots don't ask and remain forever ignorant.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DittonWilson said:


> You used a brush to finish doors in the past? I have been using a weenie roller on doors and trim for a while. With a little additive like flotrol, with really good results.
> 
> But the general attitude I get around here from contractors and homeowners is that a spray finish on trims and doors is smoother and more desirable.


You have received enough feedback regarding sheen and application processes to have you adequately confused so I am not going there. But I will say that ditching the PVA is good advice; that’s a product from long ago and anyone recommending it (or using it - sorry) these days is a dinosaur. There are so many better primers to go to now that it’s ridiculous to even have PVA on the shelves.

Along with ditching the PVA, I would also recommend getting away from using Floetrol. Instead, get some of the XIM additives (they make them for both latex and oil). They are far superior products over Floetrol, at least IMHO.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brushman4 said:


> It looks very acceptable seeing that you're going over a textured surface, and this a is frickin garage, NOT the Taj Mahal.


Except, the customer is a doctor. Aside from engineers (and the occasional lawyer), they can be among the very worst when it comes to being anal about stuff. And if the doctor happens to be a surgeon, then heaven help him. lain:


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## DittonWilson (Jun 16, 2018)

RH said:


> You have received enough feedback regarding sheen and application processes to have you adequately confused so I am not going there. But I will say that ditching the PVA is good advice; that’s a product from long ago and anyone recommending it (or using it - sorry) these days is a dinosaur. There are so many better primers to go to now that it’s ridiculous to even have PVA on the shelves.
> 
> Along with ditching the PVA, I would also recommend getting away from using Floetrol. Instead, get some of the XIM additives (they make them for both latex and oil). They are far superior products over Floetrol, at least IMHO.


I will look into that. Its actually the Sherwin M1 that I usually use. 

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/sunnyside-m1-latex-paint-additive-extender


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DittonWilson said:


> I will look into that. Its actually the Sherwin M1 that I usually use.
> 
> https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/sunnyside-m1-latex-paint-additive-extender


Not familiar with it. Just a big fan of the XIM product line.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

RH said:


> Except, the customer is a doctor. Aside from engineers (and the occasional lawyer), they can be among the very worst when it comes to being anal about stuff. And if the doctor happens to be a surgeon, then heaven help him. lain:


Plastic surgeons are the worst of the worst when it comes to being anal. But if I were under his knife, I might appreciate that personality trait!:biggrin:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Not familiar with it. Just a big fan of the XIM product line.



XIM and M1 are pretty much the same thing. water and proplyene glycol.


BM extender has some Aura acrylic resin, doesn't weaken the paint film like XIM or M1 in large amounts.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Plastic surgeons are the worst of the worst when it comes to being anal. But if I were under his knife, I might appreciate that personality trait!:biggrin:


I’ve told customers before that they want their brain surgeon and painter to be the anal types.


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