# Does Hardie Board need to be primed?



## One Coat Coverage

And yes, I already did a forum search and found stuff from 2007-08.

I am putting a bid on a house completly sided with what is suppossed to be pre-primed hardie board.

What I'me wondering is how good does Duration hold up on this type of siding.

Or should I not trust the factory primer and prime it anyway, then topcoat with Superpaint Satin (my usual house paint)?


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## straight_lines

2 coat Duration will do just fine on factory primed stock. SP would as well.


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## Gough

One Coat Coverage said:


> And yes, I already did a forum search and found stuff from 2007-08.
> 
> I am putting a bid on a house completly sided with what is suppossed to be pre-primed hardie board.
> 
> What I'me wondering is how good does Duration hold up on this type of siding.
> 
> Or should I not trust the factory primer and prime it anyway, then topcoat with Superpaint Satin (my usual house paint)?


When was the siding installed? If it's just been installed, there should be no problem. My concern would be if it's been exposed long enough for the primer to deteriorate. According to the James Hardie Website, the pre-primed version needs to be painted within 180 days. I'm assuming that, after that, it needs to be washed down and re-primed.

To avoid having to worry about it, we apply one coat before the siding is installed, but it doesn't sound like that's an option for you.


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## RH

What Gough said. I didn't do any additional priming on mine and it's been golden for almost 11 years now. But make sure you do prime the cut ends.


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## Jmayspaint

I wouldn't trust it. There is a lake house in a sub division I work in that a friend did with duration and no prime. It's faded surprisingly. 
The hardee factory prime seems chalky/dry to me. I'm sure the age/exposure before painting has a lot to do with it.
I like to use loxon masonry primer on it.


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## NCPaint1

RH said:


> What Gough said. I didn't do any additional priming on mine and it's been golden for almost 11 years now. But make sure you do prime the cut ends.


This is sort of a gray area. Pre-primed is different than pre-finished. As said, the pre-primed needs to be coated in a certain time frame. Most primers deteriorate fairly quickly, and this can be problematic on pre-primed substrates. Its hard to determine exactly how long something has been exposed for. It could have been stored outside, sat on a job site, or been installed and not finished for some time. Usually its a combination of those scenarios. Put something in your contract to CYA just in case and you should be fine.

Almost every paint manufacturer has something on their label about going over previous coatings. They don't want someone coming after them for a product failure when theirs wasn't the problem...it was the previous coatings.


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## Gough

NCPaint1 said:


> This is sort of a gray area. Pre-primed is different than pre-finished. As said, the pre-primed needs to be coated in a certain time frame. Most primers deteriorate fairly quickly, and this can be problematic on pre-primed substrates. Its hard to determine exactly how long something has been exposed for. It could have been stored outside, sat on a job site, or been installed and not finished for some time. Usually its a combination of those scenarios. Put something in your contract to CYA just in case and you should be fine.
> 
> Almost every paint manufacturer has something on their label about going over previous coatings. They don't want someone coming after them for a product failure when theirs wasn't the problem...it was the previous coatings.


Good point. We've probably been averaging one Hardi re-side job a year for a while now, and I know we've gotten units that were made up from returned material. Obviously, we have no idea how that stuff was treated. That's one of the reasons that we paint it before we install it. The other big reason is that we can hang siding any time of the year without having to worry about the time window for painting it.

How did we know that we'd gotten returned plank? Footprints and dirt all over the planks in the middle of a unit. Nothing seems to interrupt the work flow like having to pull out planks to wash them down and let them dry before they can be painted.


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## RH

Gough said:


> Good point. We've probably been averaging one Hardi re-side job a year for a while now, and I know we've gotten units that were made up from returned material. Obviously, we have no idea how that stuff was treated. That's one of the reasons that we paint it before we install it. The other big reason is that we can hang siding any time of the year without having to worry about the time window for painting it.
> 
> How did we know that we'd gotten returned plank? Footprints and dirt all over the planks in the middle of a unit. Nothing seems to interrupt the work flow like having to pull out planks to wash them down and let them dry before they can be painted.


Gough -
Do you use a circular to cut it or the shears? I broke down and bought the shears about a 1/4 of the way through residing my place. One of the best buys I've ever made. I used them numerous time for cutting the Hardie backer board for tile as well.


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## Gough

RH said:


> Gough -
> Do you use a circular to cut it or the shears? I broke down and bought the shears about a 1/4 of the way through residing my place. One of the best buys I've ever made. I used them numerous time for cutting the Hardie backer board for tile as well.


We use both. We started with the shears and then got one of the Makita F/C saws and hooked it up to a shop vac with a HEPA filter. I thought the saw was a bit of a clunker, so we switched to one of the Rigid saws, which is a winner. We have the shop vac hooked up to an airswitch, so we step on the switch before sawing and end up with virtually no dust.


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## mcradice

joshmays1976 said:


> I wouldn't trust it. There is a lake house in a sub division I work in that a friend did with duration and no prime. It's faded surprisingly.
> The hardee factory prime seems chalky/dry to me. I'm sure the age/exposure before painting has a lot to do with it.
> I like to use loxon masonry primer on it.


This is spot on! You WILL get premature fade if you rely on the piss-coat some like to call 'pre-primed'.....You're best to prime with a masonry primer first.


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## Stonehampaintdept

NCPaint1 said:


> This is sort of a gray area. Pre-primed is different than pre-finished. As said, the pre-primed needs to be coated in a certain time frame. Most primers deteriorate fairly quickly, and this can be problematic on pre-primed substrates. Its hard to determine exactly how long something has been exposed for. It could have been stored outside, sat on a job site, or been installed and not finished for some time. Usually its a combination of those scenarios. Put something in your contract to CYA just in case and you should be fine.
> 
> Almost every paint manufacturer has something on their label about going over previous coatings. They don't want someone coming after them for a product failure when theirs wasn't the problem...it was the previous coatings.


Yup. You don't know how long something has been sitting around from time of manufacture, storage, shipping, more storage, to jobsite and completion and finally ready for paint. I always tell people prep surface and re-prime. They don't exactly use top quality primers when factory priming.


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## One Coat Coverage

joshmays1976 said:


> I wouldn't trust it. There is a lake house in a sub division I work in that a friend did with duration and no prime. It's faded surprisingly.
> The hardee factory prime seems chalky/dry to me. I'm sure the age/exposure before painting has a lot to do with it.
> I like to use loxon masonry primer on it.


Was it FLAT duration? Because I have seen big time fading and discolration issues with that stuff.


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## alertchief

One Coat Coverage said:


> Was it FLAT duration? Because I have seen big time fading and discolration issues with that stuff.


The house down the street from me was done in duration 3 years ago. It was done in a pottery barn green color .... Now it's a wonderful shade of pottery barn pink in many spots. Our own house was painted with super paint and after 2 years with suitable brown sw 7036 I think it looked like this....






















The second picture is the original touch up paint used to show how it looked.

Now it's BM GENNEX it call another painter.


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## Gough

alertchief said:


> The house down the street from me was done in duration 3 years ago. It was done in a pottery barn green color .... Now it's a wonderful shade of pottery barn pink in many spots. Our own house was painted with super paint and after 2 years with suitable brown sw 7036 I think it looked like this....
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16114
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16115
> 
> 
> The second picture is the original touch up paint used to show how it looked.
> 
> Now it's BM GENNEX it call another painter.



That's about the experience we had with PPG solid color stain a few years ago. Now it's BM ArborCoat and holding its color just fine.


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## straight_lines

I think the fading issues are a result of styrene being in the paint as much as the factory primer. I am seeing the same thing with duration here. 

I stopped using it for anything but trim, I still love the gloss white.


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## Jmayspaint

One Coat Coverage said:


> Was it FLAT duration? Because I have seen big time fading and discolration issues with that stuff.


Flat yes. On the lake too


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## Gough

straight_lines said:


> I think the fading issues are a result of styrene being in the paint as much as the factory primer. I am seeing the same thing with duration here.
> 
> I stopped using it for anything but trim, I still love the gloss white.


I hadn't thought about the styrene, since the reps had been blaming UTCs, but I agree that it's not the primer that contributes to the fading. 

With saponified primers, I thought the big concern was premature failure of the bond between the primer and the top coat(s).

EDIT: I have no idea what type of tints are used in Duration. Are they UTCs or something analogous to GENNEX?


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## One Coat Coverage

Flats have poor color retention.


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## Gough

One Coat Coverage said:


> Flats have poor color retention.


One more reason not to use them....


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## Northwest_painter

No you don't have to prime hadie plank if you don't want to. Just know it sucks up paint like a spounge. three coats for no prime two with prime.


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## paintpimp

You need to prime Hardie Board. Reason you see "fading" issues, is because of alkali burn. The ph levels on hardie board vary with every batch. To help prevent issues you need to use a masonry primer and then your suitable topcoat.


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## Bender

straight_lines said:


> I think the fading issues are a result of styrene being in the paint as much as the factory primer. I am seeing the same thing with duration here.
> 
> I stopped using it for anything but trim, I still love the gloss white.


I agree. That and 1 coat of finish.

Anybody try Emerald flat? Its a hoot to work with


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## RH

Northwest_painter said:


> No you don't have to prime hadie plank if you don't want to. Just know it sucks up paint like a spounge. three coats for no prime two with prime.


Things must have changed drastically with this product - and not for the good. 

When I put mine up (I rechecked my records, it was in 99' so approaching 14 years) I couldn't believe had easy it painted and how little paint it took. I rolled and brushed two full coats and it took a little over half the paint a typical house it's size, sided in a traditional (natural) siding, would have needed. Plus the paint went on like butter. Still looks great - no fading, no flaking, no peeling. We're about ready for a color change so a paint job is on the schedule for this summer, but not because it needs it.


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## ewingpainting.net

its better to prime and find out it wasn't needed than to not prime to find our you should of.


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## Gough

Northwest_painter said:


> No you don't have to prime hadie plank if you don't want to. Just know it sucks up paint like a spounge. three coats for no prime two with prime.


We've been averaging about one Hardi installation per year lately, and I haven't seen that problem. We do two coats: one before we hang it and one after. I've been having to dial down my material estimates because of better coverage.

The only fading we've seen is from a fairly dark blue one that we did in '02. We used PPG SunProof, which clearly wasn't, but I think that's because of the glycol -based UTCs. The paint has stood up fine other than the fading.


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## ewingpainting.net

Bender said:


> I agree. That and 1 coat of finish.
> 
> Anybody try Emerald flat? Its a hoot to work with


dam, thats emerald, 1st coat or 2nd. this tails would bug the crap out of me. and you can see your breaks. was this the south side?


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## alertchief

Bender said:


> I agree. That and 1 coat of finish.
> 
> Anybody try Emerald flat? Its a hoot to work with


Wow... I am sure your rep would say your guys don't know how to paint.. Whatever ....


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## SemiproJohn

Well, once again I feel compelled to post on an ancient thread. My recent experience painting new, pre-primed yellow Hardie siding was an eye-opener, to say the least.

I chose not to prime or seal, just pressure wash (more of a rinse, as there was no dirt or dust), caulk the verticals (not the butt joints) and then apply 2 coats of SW Superpaint.

The siding sucked up the paint at an alarming rate. Everywhere that I had stop-start breaks because of having to move a ladder flashed. I even had flashing at the gables where I sprayed (once again, due to having to stop, move ladder).

The only areas that did not flash were those I could spray from the ground and could walk continuously, never letting off the trigger from one end of the wall to the other. The 2nd coat improved things, but not enough to hide the stop start breaks where ladder work was involved. 

So, I 3rd coated a good part of the building, using a roller and rolling each individual panel from right to left.

I managed to make the paint job presentable, but it was in no way up to my standards and I consider it an embarrassment, to be honest. I got paid, the customers are happy, but anyone with a discerning eye that stands at the right angle to the gables and in the proper light could point out flash marks. The lower stuff looks just fine.

I'm posting so that, hopefully, this does not happen to any of you.

What I learned:

Do not trust the pre-primed yellow Hardie siding as a surface that doesn't need priming.

I would think that a masonry primer would be best practice. I'm not sure if ph issues were a problem, the fact that it was hot and windy most of the time, or a combination of these.

I keep thinking, after the fact, that even sealing the siding with Sealkrete could have prevented the flashing issues (I would at least have had a sealed, uniform surface), and would have been a cheaper alternative to applying Loxon or some other masonry primer.

The only way I could have prevented the flashing issues without priming or sealing would have been to have scaffolding erected around each side. I would then have had to start at the top, and paint each individual piece of siding from one corner of the wall to the other, before the paint had a chance to dry. It was me going back into the drying paint that caused the flashing.

As I said, I ended up using a nine inch roller for a 3rd coat, one piece of siding at a time. What a pain. 

The Superpaint was "Dormer Brown" and a satin sheen. I think any touch up on the siding is going to flash, even after 3 coats. 

I did not take any pictures showing the flashing, as I honestly did not want to risk getting caught doing so. Here's a couple, showing the unpainted siding and the finished product. 

I thought my only uncertainty before starting this job was what to caulk and what not to caulk. I researched this old thread before deciding not to prime or seal.

I just don't want this happening to anybody else.


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## Gough

SemiproJohn said:


> Well, once again I feel compelled to post on an ancient thread. My recent experience painting new, pre-primed yellow Hardie siding was an eye-opener, to say the least.
> 
> I chose not to prime or seal, just pressure wash (more of a rinse, as there was no dirt or dust), caulk the verticals (not the butt joints) and then apply 2 coats of SW Superpaint.
> 
> The siding sucked up the paint at an alarming rate. Everywhere that I had stop-start breaks because of having to move a ladder flashed. I even had flashing at the gables where I sprayed (once again, due to having to stop, move ladder).
> 
> The only areas that did not flash were those I could spray from the ground and could walk continuously, never letting off the trigger from one end of the wall to the other. The 2nd coat improved things, but not enough to hide the stop start breaks where ladder work was involved.
> 
> So, I 3rd coated a good part of the building, using a roller and rolling each individual panel from right to left.
> 
> I managed to make the paint job presentable, but it was in no way up to my standards and I consider it an embarrassment, to be honest. I got paid, the customers are happy, but anyone with a discerning eye that stands at the right angle to the gables and in the proper light could point out flash marks. The lower stuff looks just fine.
> 
> I'm posting so that, hopefully, this does not happen to any of you.
> 
> What I learned:
> 
> Do not trust the pre-primed yellow Hardie siding as a surface that doesn't need priming.
> 
> I would think that a masonry primer would be best practice. I'm not sure if ph issues were a problem, the fact that it was hot and windy most of the time, or a combination of these.
> 
> I keep thinking, after the fact, that even sealing the siding with Sealkrete could have prevented the flashing issues (I would at least have had a sealed, uniform surface), and would have been a cheaper alternative to applying Loxon or some other masonry primer.
> 
> The only way I could have prevented the flashing issues without priming or sealing would have been to have scaffolding erected around each side. I would then have had to start at the top, and paint each individual piece of siding from one corner of the wall to the other, before the paint had a chance to dry. It was me going back into the drying paint that caused the flashing.
> 
> As I said, I ended up using a nine inch roller for a 3rd coat, one piece of siding at a time. What a pain.
> 
> The Superpaint was "Dormer Brown" and a satin sheen. I think any touch up on the siding is going to flash, even after 3 coats.
> 
> I did not take any pictures showing the flashing, as I honestly did not want to risk getting caught doing so. Here's a couple, showing the unpainted siding and the finished product.
> 
> I thought my only uncertainty before starting this job was what to caulk and what not to caulk. I researched this old thread before deciding not to prime or seal.
> 
> I just don't want this happening to anybody else.


Once the paint starts to fail on the right-hand gable where it meets the lower roof, no one will worry about the lap marks.

Not your problem, the Hardi was improperly installed: insufficient clearance to roof and no kickout flashing. There is probably insufficient clearance above the window heads as well, but I couldn't tell from the photos.


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## Painter

With Duration you can paint raw wood two coats and SW will stand behind their warranty. I have done this on the bottom of some decks up to ten years ago with no issues and still looking good. So you should not have any issues.


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## PACman

you pretty much summed up every reason why hardi sucks. PPG in Columbus used to sell the cheapest exterior oil stain they had to a couple major home builders for new builds. That crap would fade to white in 3 years it sucked so bad. But it was the cheapest oil based product around at the time and only had to last as long as the 1 year warranty they had on the houses. I'm pretty sure there were a couple thousand pissed off home owners in the Columbus area when that crap had to be repainted three years after they bought their brand new house. But the generic hardi they used barely out lasted the stain if you didn't repaint it so they had to do it. But cheap sells!


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## Gough

PACman said:


> you pretty much summed up every reason why hardi sucks. PPG in Columbus used to sell the cheapest exterior oil stain they had to a couple major home builders for new builds. That crap would fade to white in 3 years it sucked so bad. But it was the cheapest oil based product around at the time and only had to last as long as the 1 year warranty they had on the houses. I'm pretty sure there were a couple thousand pissed off home owners in the Columbus area when that crap had to be repainted three years after they bought their brand new house. But the generic hardi they used barely out lasted the stain if you didn't repaint it so they had to do it. But cheap sells!


So this was some off-brand fiber-cement siding? As long as I can remember, Hardie specs have called for acrylic paints only...no oil-base, no stain.

As I've posted before, nearly every problem that we've encountered with Hardi® waste result of improper installation. Mostly, clearance/spacing issues, with some from improper nailing. The only exceptions that I can recall were on one of the projects where we were hanging the siding. We got two bad units: in one, the boards were bowed; in the other, they were cupped. In both cases, Hardie replaced the units and reimbursed us for our trouble.


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## SemiproJohn

Gough said:


> Once the paint starts to fail on the right-hand gable where it meets the lower roof, no one will worry about the lap marks.
> 
> Not your problem, the Hardi was improperly installed: insufficient clearance to roof and no kickout flashing. There is probably insufficient clearance above the window heads as well, but I couldn't tell from the photos.


Yes, I definitely noticed the lack of kick out flashing. And as far as the use of spine flashing behind the butt joints, I can't be sure as I don't know what it looks like. I saw something behind the butt joints that looked like square pieces of thin white plastic. There were only two windows. They were recessed and well out of the way of the weather, so I think those areas will be safe.

I reminded the owner twice that he needed at least 6 inches of clearance underneath the bottom siding (again, no flashing). There was dirt pushed up against it already in various places. 

At this point I'm just relieved I'm done with this job, and will take what I learned and apply it to the next Hardie job (if I want to do another).


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## PACman

Gough said:


> So this was some off-brand fiber-cement siding? As long as I can remember, Hardie specs have called for acrylic paints only...no oil-base, no stain.
> 
> As I've posted before, nearly every problem that we've encountered with Hardi® waste result of improper installation. Mostly, clearance/spacing issues, with some from improper nailing. The only exceptions that I can recall were on one of the projects where we were hanging the siding. We got two bad units: in one, the boards were bowed; in the other, they were cupped. In both cases, Hardie replaced the units and reimbursed us for our trouble.


yup. I didn't spec it. I just had to sell the crap. And yes, the Hardi trademarked product is a lot better then the cheap crap that's out there. You would have thought someone at the home builder or PPG would have given a crap about it but nope.


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## ParamountPaint

Whenever that siding is sitting on the shingles like that, it is a guaranteed problem down the road. I've painted some new builds like that, shaking my head in the process.

A few years ago, I got a call from a GC I hadn't worked with before. They were in the process of residing a house with pre-primed Hardi and for whatever reason, didn't have anyone to paint it (in November, to boot). Luckily, the homeowners were desperate, so they agreed to let me tear up the yard with a lift (only way I was taking it on). We lucked out with a week of warm weather, BUT that Hardi was looking real bad. I don't know if it was a bad batch, but there were large blob shaped spots bleeding through. It was obvious that the primer coat was either not consistent, or it was some old stuff that had sat out in the weather.

Long story short, we had a change order to topcoat the entire house again with Duration, and it looks fine to this day. Since then, I've always shot fiber cement with a primer coat of PPG Permacrete before top coats and have nary a problem since. 

Most factory prime coats are garbage, and I feel it would be better if they didn't even bother with it. It just breeds false hopes and then resentment when clients find out that they are going to have to pay to prime it again anyway.


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## NACE

paintpimp said:


> You need to prime Hardie Board. Reason you see "fading" issues, is because of alkali burn. The ph levels on hardie board vary with every batch. To help prevent issues you need to use a masonry primer and then your suitable topcoat.


This is a great point. A primer that will tolerate a 13 pH. Not only provides adhesion but will minimize and act as a barrier to higher pH.


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## CNClark

NACE said:


> This is a great point. A primer that will tolerate a 13 pH. Not only provides adhesion but will minimize and act as a barrier to higher pH.


Agreed. Loxon XP will tolerate high PH as well. And can work as a single coat system.


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## PACman

NACE said:


> This is a great point. A primer that will tolerate a 13 pH. Not only provides adhesion but will minimize and act as a barrier to higher pH.


You do know that this almost never happens in the real world right? Every time i bring the pH thing up my customers look at me like i suddenly started speaking chinese.

And unfortunately, Hardi clones are out there and for some reason they just get cheaper and cheaper. The first thing that goes out the door is primer quality.


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## Jmayspaint

PACman said:


> You do know that this almost never happens in the real world right? Every time i bring the pH thing up my customers look at me like i suddenly started speaking chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> And unfortunately, Hardi clones are out there and for some reason they just get cheaper and cheaper. The first thing that goes out the door is primer quality.




I didn't realize primer quality ever came in the door when it comes to factory primed siding from any manufacturer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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