# Commercial vinyl removal and paste clean up



## xr4ticrew

Hey guys, 

I have a fairly large commercial project underway that I was hoping to get some advice on. The job is 2 entire floors of an office building, approx 15000 sq ft of floor space per floor. In total there is around 50,000 sq ft of wall, of which maybe half is existing vinyl. 
We are removing vinyl in the corridors and some of the offices to replace with paint. So far our process has been as follows:
-Remove carpet base and plates
-Strip vinyl (it is non-paper backed and so is coming off easily in full sheets. 
-As we strip it, we are laying out the vinyl paste side up as a floor covering for the messy paste removal process.
I believe the paste to be wheat based, it is a golden brown when dry and lighter brown when wet. 
Now the fun part,
We are using rollers with warm water to soak the paste, and sponges for the tops (against acoustic ceiling). 
Letting it sit, keeping it wet
Then scraping off with large mud knives, collecting the goop in waste buckets etc
Washing the walls after with sponges. 
Then pole sanding and priming using Zinnser coverstain. Can't seem to find Gardz anywhere in Calgary. 
It is a challenge to keep the floors clean while cleaning the walls as there is a ton of water in play and the paste sticks to everything. We are using shoecovers while in the messy areas and removing them after. 

We haven't tried adding anything to the water to make the process easier or faster, and I'm just wondering what the best solution for this is. 

Would some DIF gel or something similar speed up the process enough to justify the cost vs free water?
Any tips from the experts are appreciated here. 

Also, in some areas the vinyl has imprinted a crosshatch pattern on the wall which I'm hoping will be hidden under 3 coats of paint (coverstain + 2 coats BM super spec). Anybody encounter a similar problem?

Thanks for your help!


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## Lambrecht

The only suggestion I would make is maybe using a pump sprayer to soak the walls. It might reduce some production time enough to balance out the cost of using Dif or another surface tension reducer if really needed. I find that a three man system works best. First man soaks, second scrapes, and third wipes remaining glue.


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## Schmidt & Co.

I use just about the same exact process as you. The only thing I do different is use a hudson with some Diff to wet the walls. Just keep them wet, and after a bit you will hit that "sweet spot" when the paste will come off! :thumbsup:


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## Lambrecht

What is a Hudson?


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## Schmidt & Co.

Lambrecht said:


> What is a Hudson?


Pump up sprayer. It is, or was a brand name and everyone around here just calls it a Hudson. :yes:


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## CliffK

You got lucky that it is coming off in full sheets and again with no paper backing. It sounds like the walls were prepared properly as well, you don't mention a lot of damage to the walls which can happen when pulling commercial vinyl. We would put some DIFF in a pump sprayer. It actually helps you control the amount of water on the walls. Try those scouring pads like you would use on pots and pans, but the SUPER coarse version. They even make a plastic hand grip for them. they cut the paste better than just a sponge. Also, make sure the walls are super dry if your using Cover Stain to prime. With the odor I would think twice about that here in an office building. In my experience they would be bitchin. I like a high quality acrylic primer after wallcovering removal. I find it binds better long term if there should be any residue of paste and if the wall should be even slightly damp it is not a major concern. The Cover Stain will work and is a great product, I question if it is necessary under the conditions-it may very well be. Other than that, it is a slop fest as you describe. Not my favorite thing to do-wish you luck.


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## xr4ticrew

Thanks for the tips guys. I will look into a garden sprayer, that sounds like a good idea. 

The vinyl came off pretty cleanly but did take parts of the wall with it here and there, so we have some areas to skim. 

As for the primer, I would definitely rather use an acrylic, but the reps at my paint store told me the Coverstain would be better at sealing in any paste residue that happened to remain after cleaning it. I was planning to save that step for the weekend or at night so the tenants in adjoining floors aren't bothered...

Thanks
Rick


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## Paradigmzz

I would be under the impression that coverstain would seal better than a waterborne. Just my .2 cents


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## CliffK

Paradigmzz said:


> I would be under the impression that coverstain would seal better than a waterborne. Just my .2 cents


 Up until a few years ago I would agree completely and still do for many applications. Keep in mind Gardz is a waterborne product and it is an excellent sealer, but not for stains and such.


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## xr4ticrew

Cliff what primer are you using over the paste? I would say 90-95% of it is gone but the bit that remains worries me.


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## Schmidt & Co.

xr4ticrew said:


> Cliff what primer are you using over the paste? I would say 90-95% of it is gone but the bit that remains worries me.


Kover Stain is a sure fire way to go. I've used Guards also, but I just get to nervous about a possible falure....


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## chrisn

xr4ticrew said:


> Cliff what primer are you using over the paste? I would say 90-95% of it is gone but the bit that remains worries me.


Here is the best:yes: and there will be NO argument about it, period!


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## Lambrecht

chrisn said:


> Here is the best:yes: and there will be NO argument about it, period!


Have you used the newer gel formula?


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## ProWallGuy

That brown paste would be clay. doubtful anybody would use a wheat paste on commercial vinyl.

Use hot water, and your removal solution of choice in a pump sprayer:










When sufficiently wet/soft, blade off the paste with a wallpaper scraper:










Or a 6" stiff putty knife:










IMMEDIATELY after blading the walls, have a guy come behind and scrub the wall off a coarse scrubby pad. I use the 3M Doodlebug Baseboard cleaning system with the brown pad:










Wipe wall with clean rinse sponge. When dry, apply coat of Zinsser's Gardz:










Or Scotch Paint's DrawTite:










I personally don't like the No-Run (gel) version as I'm not convinced it penetrates as well as the regular runny stuff.

And there you go.


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## ProWallGuy

I forgot to add this. After pulling the vinyl, I apply 3M pre-taped plastic to the baseboard, or at the floor:










It goes on easy by hand or with a masking gun, and unfolds out to 3'.

When you wet the walls, you should just _mist_ them at first to avoid having the water just run down the walls. After you have misted them a time or two, then you can really soak them without it running off the wall.

Scrape all the paste downward, and let it all slop onto the plastic. Then you can fold up the sides of the plastic, and roll it up and throw it away. Keeps the cleanup/mess down to a minimum.


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## Schmidt & Co.

^^^:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:^^^

End of discussion.........


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## Schmidt & Co.

ProWallGuy said:


> I forgot to add this. After pulling the vinyl, I apply 3M pre-taped plastic to the baseboard, or at the floor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It goes on easy by hand or with a masking gun, and unfolds out to 3'.
> 
> When you wet the walls, you should just _mist_ them at first to avoid having the water just run down the walls. After you have misted them a time or two, then you can really soak them without it running off the wall.
> 
> Scrape all the paste downward, and let it all slop onto the plastic. Then you can fold up the sides of the plastic, and roll it up and throw it away. Keeps the cleanup/mess down to a minimum.


 
I will admit, when removing 54'' goods, I like to lay it on the floor as runners like the OP said. :thumbsup:


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## ProWallGuy

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I will admit, when removing 54'' goods, I like to lay it on the floor as runners like the OP said. :thumbsup:


When I pull vinyl, we lay it on the floor and stack it up as it comes off. Roll it up, duct tape it, and chuck it. You try to roll up stiff old vinyl with paste and whatnot slopped all over it, you might just cry. Catching the slop and disposing of it in the plastic is just plain easier.


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## xr4ticrew

chrisn said:


> Here is the best:yes: and there will be NO argument about it, period!


I don't think I can find that one in Canada!


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## CliffK

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Kover Stain is a sure fire way to go. I've used Guards also, but I just get to nervous about a possible falure....


 It's funny, I am more concerned about future failure with the oil if there is any adhesive residue. I switched over years ago. I have had great success and NEVER a problem with Gardz, Aqualock and even 1-2-3. With the acrylic I am not as concerned with a 100% dry wall. I imagine both methods will work, it's interesting how different guys have different systems.


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## CliffK

chrisn said:


> Here is the best:yes: and there will be NO argument about it, period!


 I am not familiar with this product(Draw Tite) in my area. Is this an acrylic ? Clear or pigmented ?


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## Schmidt & Co.

CliffK said:


> I am not familiar with this product(Draw Tite) in my area. Is this an acrylic ? Clear or pigmented ?


Its the product the Guards was copied from. And Draw Tight is a better product...... :yes:


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## daArch

OK, now that the process has been well hashed, let me divert a tad.

For those that need to park a vehicle or two outside in the cold, take some of that old vinyl and use it to protect your windshield from frost, ice, sleet, and snow.

Lock it tight by closing the ends in the doors. Keep it wide enough and the wipers stay clean too:










OH, leave it paste side to the weather


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## Lambrecht

Paste side down would be a real mess.


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## daArch

Yes it is :whistling2:


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## Lambrecht

Be good for another trade guy that has pissed you off though.


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## chrisn

xr4ticrew said:


> I don't think I can find that one in Canada!


 

http://www.scotchpaint.com/drawtite.html


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## chrisn

Lambrecht said:


> Have you used the newer gel formula?


See post 15, pro said it all:notworthy:


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## xr4ticrew

CliffK said:


> It's funny, I am more concerned about future failure with the oil if there is any adhesive residue. I switched over years ago. I have had great success and NEVER a problem with Gardz, Aqualock and even 1-2-3. With the acrylic I am not as concerned with a 100% dry wall. I imagine both methods will work, it's interesting how different guys have different systems.


I had my paint rep try to bring in Gardz but they said it was unavailable in Canada. Anything equivalent that I ould use? I would like to avoid using the coverstain as it stinks bad and might cause problems with lingering odor even if we rolled it at night.


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## Schmidt & Co.

xr4ticrew said:


> I had my paint rep try to bring in Gardz but they said it was unavailable in Canada. Anything equivalent that I ould use? I would like to avoid using the coverstain as it stinks bad and might cause problems with lingering odor even if we rolled it at night.


_For me, _Guards is the only water base that I would feel comfortable with. You _might _get away with using something like 123, but I don't like going into something not being confident with the outcome of my product selection.


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## CliffK

xr4ticrew said:


> I had my paint rep try to bring in Gardz but they said it was unavailable in Canada. Anything equivalent that I ould use? I would like to avoid using the coverstain as it stinks bad and might cause problems with lingering odor even if we rolled it at night.


 Depends on what the concern is. The key is to get the old adhesive off-that being said, if it's clean I feel confident with the Aqualock or the 1-2-3. Then it depends on how much damage there is to the wall. If it is extensive where you are concerned about the spackle work bubbling and giving you trouble over the sheetrock where the paper surface has been damaged then the Gardz is a better bet then the others. Make a sample over a damaged spot with a product like 1-2-3 and spackle it out and see what you get. If when you roll the acrylic primer(over the undamaged areas),which ever one it may be, and you roll back into it-if it picks it off then you know there is still quite a bit of old adhesive on the wall. The Cover Stain is a great product, but in today's day and age with all the "green" concern it has a big odor especially in a closed in building without a lot of windows or ventilation. Sometimes the a/c-heat ducts can actually transport the odor to other areas where you aren't even working and you've got them bitchin too. I just find people are very sensitive to this stuff anymore. It's one thing if it is a homeowner and you tell them it's gonna stink get out for the day, but an office building comes with a lot of intolerant people in my experience. Hope it works out well for you, let us know which way you go and the results. Cliff


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## Different Strokes

Lambrecht said:


> Be good for another trade guy that has pissed you off though.


That would be a mess!! almost as bad as when that guy finds out who did it, and then goes to his house and pours part A of a 2part epoxy all over his driveway. :no: not good willis, not good


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## the paintman

ProWallGuy said:


> That brown paste would be clay. doubtful anybody would use a wheat paste on commercial vinyl.
> 
> Use hot water, and your removal solution of choice in a pump sprayer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When sufficiently wet/soft, blade off the paste with a wallpaper scraper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or a 6" stiff putty knife:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMMEDIATELY after blading the walls, have a guy come behind and scrub the wall off a coarse scrubby pad. I use the 3M Doodlebug Baseboard cleaning system with the brown pad:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wipe wall with clean rinse sponge. When dry, apply coat of Zinsser's Gardz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or Scotch Paint's DrawTite:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally don't like the No-Run (gel) version as I'm not convinced it penetrates as well as the regular runny stuff.
> 
> And there you go.


Thanks to this thread and all the good answers I don't have to pose the same question. I have a very similar job as the original poster. Actually 2 jobs for the same customer on an assisted living facility. Probably 26k of walls each. Yeah, all wallcovering and huge.
Now I am wondering if i bid it to low. Probably .25/sf. Thereabouts just for removal. But worse than that one has new carpet I will have to worry about. Didnt really factor that like i should of I now know. But the other will have the old carpet replaced after paint. I have lots of experience with removing vinly that comes off in full sheets. But never this much. We actually encourage them and most our customers in the past to paint over it to save the xpense of removal. And that has sufficed 90% of the time. With ok results. I do have a caveat in thier for wall damage and wall repairs if needed. I have only included spot spackling. I have never encountered a labourous glue removal process as mentioned here. I think I have been lucky. I know we have scraped it off dry before. Does that make sense?


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## chrisn

the paintman said:


> Thanks to this thread and all the good answers I don't have to pose the same question. I have a very similar job as the original poster. Actually 2 jobs for the same customer on an assisted living facility. Probably 26k of walls each. Yeah, all wallcovering and huge.
> Now I am wondering if i bid it to low. Probably .25/sf. Thereabouts just for removal. But worse than that one has new carpet I will have to worry about. Didnt really factor that like i should of I now know. But the other will have the old carpet replaced after paint. I have lots of experience with removing vinly that comes off in full sheets. But never this much. We actually encourage them and most our customers in the past to paint over it to save the xpense of removal. And that has sufficed 90% of the time. With ok results. I do have a caveat in thier for wall damage and wall repairs if needed. I have only included spot spackling. I have never encountered a labourous glue removal process as mentioned here. I think I have been lucky. I know we have scraped it off dry before. Does that make sense?


 
That part makes NO sense what so ever, un freekin believable


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## the paintman

chrisn said:


> That part makes NO sense what so ever, un freekin believable


 Excuse my ignorance. But what part of painting over wallpaper don't yo understand and i will try to explain. :whistling2:


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## Scannell Painting

What we have tried on commercial office space is remove vinyl, sand walls with 60 grit to remove dried paste. Resand with 150 & spot skim. Seems to work well :thumbsup:


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## daArch

That sounds like a decent compromise, and maybe the residue paste will rewet with the wet skim (I assume joint compound) and act as a little "bonding agent"

As long as everything seems tight and no bubbling, that should work well.


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## Painter Chick

My suggestion as stated before in another post is remove the vinyl/ top layer. Then I use a chemical/ plant sprayer with warm water to saturate the paste. I then use ammonia and warm water solution, this really dissolves the paste and is the best thing I have found for cleaning up the paste. I would have someone go right behind the guy who is removing the majority of the paste and wash the walls. Usually I wash the walls 2 times just to make sure. Then I sand the entire wall and apply Gardz/ primer to the area, after a few hours I then repair any spots as needed and after this dries I apply Gardz again over these areas. There is no need to size your walls if you use Gardz so now you can hang the new paper or Paint your walls.

If there are alot of spots that are touched up( and you are going to paint) I would suggest skimcoating the entire wall so you will not see the touched up spots!


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## chrisn

Painter Chick said:


> My suggestion as stated before in another post is remove the vinyl/ top layer. Then I use a chemical/ plant sprayer with warm water to saturate the paste. I then use ammonia and warm water solution, this really dissolves the paste and is the best thing I have found for cleaning up the paste. I would have someone go right behind the guy who is removing the majority of the paste and wash the walls. Usually I wash the walls 2 times just to make sure. Then I sand the entire wall and apply Gardz/ primer to the area, after a few hours I then repair any spots as needed and after this dries I apply Gardz again over these areas. There is no need to size your walls if you use Gardz so now you can hang the new paper or Paint your walls.
> 
> If there are alot of spots that are touched up( and you are going to paint) I would suggest skimcoating the entire wall so you will not see the touched up spots!


 
Thank you times 4


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## cdaniels

yes different guys have different systems.What works for YOU is always the best. It's a messy job no matter how you do it you just try to keep it to a minimum. Just my 2 cents....I have used a lot of the 1-2-3 and never had a problem with it altho if stains are a problem nothing covers a stain better than an oil-based stain killer.


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## TrueColors

the paste under the vinyl is not going to be wheat paste. wheat pastes dry by evaporation. vinyl will not allow evaporation and wheat paste would mould or create mill due... its more likely some kind of HD clear or clay.


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## chrisn

TrueColors said:


> the paste under the vinyl is not going to be wheat paste. wheat pastes dry by evaporation. vinyl will not allow evaporation and wheat paste would mould or create mill due... its more likely some kind of HD clear or clay.


 
I believe that was established like, 3, YEARS ago.


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## TrueColors

Ahh yes thanks for the tip! But I believe it was 2 YEARS ago wise guy


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## chrisn

true enough:yes:


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## daArch

let me see, can I find a picture that differentiates between REALLY old necroposts, or EXCEPTIONALLY old necroposts ...........


NOPE


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