# Staining fir question.



## dirtyjeep01 (Dec 19, 2015)

I have wiped a lot of stain on fir in the past but this whole house has for trim and jambs and sills ,crown etc. For sake of time thinking of spraying fir first with lacquer or shellac first to seal then spray staining then clear. Thoughts ?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

dirtyjeep01 said:


> I have wiped a lot of stain on fir in the past but this whole house has for trim and jambs and sills ,crown etc. For sake of time thinking of spraying fir first with lacquer or shellac first to seal then spray staining then clear. Thoughts ?


I use a wood conditioner prior to staining fir. I think that using shellac or laquer may seal it too much.


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## dirtyjeep01 (Dec 19, 2015)

Really not wanting to use conditioner because it has to be out in by hand 8000 sqft house with tonnes of millwork . I usually do maple ..fir is a hole other game . Need production ..aaa and hvlp


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Our go-to for fir and othe blotch-prone woods is thinned SealCoat. I'm not sure about spraying, that's a lot of dETOH to evaporate into a space in short order.

We've had more reliable results from using a wash coat of shellac than from wood conditioners.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Our go-to for fir and othe blotch-prone woods is thinned SealCoat. I'm not sure about spraying, that's a lot of dETOH to evaporate into a space in short order.
> 
> We've had more reliable results from using a wash coat of shellac than from wood conditioners.


I bow to Gough's experience with using a shellac wash. :notworthy:


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## dirtyjeep01 (Dec 19, 2015)

Gough said:


> Our go-to for fir and othe blotch-prone woods is thinned SealCoat. I'm not sure about spraying, that's a lot of dETOH to evaporate into a space in short order.
> 
> We've had more reliable results from using a wash coat of shellac than from wood conditioners.




Shellac would be nasty to spray yeah.especailly all day. I could probably brush a seal coat then spray stain and spray clear?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

dirtyjeep01 said:


> Shellac would be nasty to spray yeah.especailly all day. I could probably brush a seal coat then spray stain and spray clear?


spraying stain gonna be nasty and messy too.. No? Any chance of coating it all before it go's up. That would be ideal. ..


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Seems brushing sealcoat is always beyond frustrating since it sucks in and dries instantly and unevenly. I have brushed some t&g pine with 33% shellac mix and it is a chore. It gets you hot under the collar when it starts getting gummy and builds at the overlaps.

I know some ppl have recommended wood conditioners that I haven't used, but I like brushing Benite the day before staining. I wonder if you can spray benite and wipe it with benite rags...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ridesarize said:


> Seems brushing sealcoat is always beyond frustrating since it sucks in and dries instantly and unevenly. I have brushed some t&g pine with 33% shellac mix and it is a chore. It gets you hot under the collar when it starts getting gummy and builds at the overlaps.
> 
> I know some ppl have recommended wood conditioners that I haven't used, but I like brushing Benite the day before staining. I wonder if you can spray benite and wipe it with benite rags...


I'm not sure what you mean by "33% shellac". If you mean a 3-pound cut, then, yeah, that gets old in a hurry. 


I think Zinnser's recommendation for using SealCoat for a stain conditioner is mixing 60% dETOH to 40% SealCoat, ending up with 0.8 pound cut. Before SealCoat hit the market, we used shellac flakes and made our own stain conditioner by making up a 1/2 pound cut. In either case, cuts that thin haven't been a problem gumming up.

We did one whole house that had (tulip) poplar trim, the most blotch-prone wood that I've ever encountered. We tried a number of conditioners on samples, but the shellac wash coat was the only one that did the job.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Gough said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "33% shellac". If you mean a 3-pound cut, then, yeah, that gets old in a hurry.
> 
> 
> I think Zinnser's recommendation for using SealCoat for a stain conditioner is mixing 60% dETOH to 40% SealCoat, ending up with 0.8 pound cut. Before SealCoat hit the market, we used shellac flakes and made our own stain conditioner by making up a 1/2 pound cut. In either case, cuts that thin haven't been a problem gumming up.
> ...


My 33% shellac mix, meaning 2 parts denatured alcohol to 1 part bin sealcoat shellac.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

I don't understand what the issue is here. 

Just needs to get a good stain with blotch control, quickly? 

Why not just give it a good scuff sand with 220 and call it good. Spray/wipe/ and top coat with something quick like a cat lacquer or WB poly. 

I wouldn't even mess with the SealCoat and thinning it, etc. Been there done that, way better stuff that dries fast and doesn't have that odor that sealcoat does with the alcohol in it. 10x better in my opinion, just switch everything to WB and have an easier go of it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Sanding with 220 wont give blotch control. You have to put something on it. Personally, I just use conditioner. spray it on, quick wipe, then stain it half hour later or so. Never tried the thinned shellac method.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Sanding with 220 wont give blotch control. You have to put something on it. Personally, I just use conditioner. spray it on, quick wipe, then stain it half hour later or so. Never tried the thinned shellac method.


Sanding closes off the pores and by definition doing so, will give you better blotch control. 

Not as necessarily as good as a chemical would. But higher grit sanding will give you blotch control by nature of what it is doing. In fact, you can sand a piece of wood to a nice glossy shine and actually buff the wood, without any additives at all. 

In which case the wood will accept very little colorant, which afterall is similar to the blotch control liquids...seals off pores to give a more uniform stain appearance. That's all it does and is designed to do.

IF the Op is looking for speed than sand with a high grit. Do some quick passes and see if that' acceptable. If it is...saves dry time, in which case he can finish sooner.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Maybe to an extent, but I think it'd be faster and definitely look better to spray or wipe some conditioner first. I've done both methods. I always do a quick sand, then prestain on top of that, if the woods blotchy. I know 220 makes wood stain a little lighter, but theres no comparison to a conditioner. I also read that just denatured alcohol by itself will tighten the wood pores some. Havent tested it, but that would be super quick to spray on if it really works. 

When I worked in a cabinet shop, there was one stain color, that we needed to rub a little prestain on just the routed top and bottom of the middle bodyof the doors, and thats after a 220 sand.

All in all, testing a few boards with different methods is the best answer there.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Maybe to an extent, but I think it'd be faster and definitely look better to spray or wipe some conditioner first. I've done both methods. I always do a quick sand, then prestain on top of that, if the woods blotchy. I know 220 makes wood stain a little lighter, but theres no comparison to a conditioner. I also read that just denatured alcohol by itself will tighten the wood pores some. Havent tested it, but that would be super quick to spray on if it really works.
> 
> When I worked in a cabinet shop, there was one stain color, that we needed to rub a little prestain on just the routed top and bottom of the middle bodyof the doors, and thats after a 220 sand.
> 
> All in all, testing a few boards with different methods is the best answer there.


Agreed. Definitely nothing like conditioner first. It always depends on the job/speed, etc. 

We're all about getting good quality results with blazing speed. It's just how we do things. Could it be super high end? Of course. You can always make something look "nicer". Sanding, treating, re-sanding, dying, staining, sealing, toning, glazing, re-toning, etc. But you sacrifice time and time is money. 

I hope the OP posts before/after pics, always fun to see those!


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Depending on the sheen they want over the past summer we used one of the pre mix colors of sikkens door and window on all fir doors. No need to worry about blotchiness and the finish dried like glass. The smell on the other hand was pretty ridiculous 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dirtyjeep01 (Dec 19, 2015)

So I went to my supplier with a sample match. Tried different methods for time sake. Found a one pass match she made that works on sanded fir no conditioner. Thoughts. I do lots of staining but not lots of stained windows and trim. Thoughts on sequence . My thoughts were to finish coat walls. Sand and pre stain and one coat lacquer post cat on trim work. Stack for finisher. Spray stain windows and seal coat. Finish coat ceilings. When finisher is complete his install mask walls around doors and windows..sand and stain match putty fill holes two costs finish. Thoughts ?


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