# Minimum required wall prep?



## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Hello. New here. I've scoured the site for any discussion on the subject but could not find a specific answer to my question.

Anyway, I have a potential client/customer who would like her entire first floor repainted using the same finish (flat) and color. Everything is the same off-white.

She is an elderly lady who wants everything freshened up but doesn't want to spend a lot so she suggested one-coating walls only.

I realize a professional would typically not recommend one coat only but I need the job right now so I want to give her what she is asking for. 

She bought the house new 7 years ago (Jacksonville, FL). It has never been painted since the home builders so I assume it is not the highest quality paint currently on the walls. 

I am trying to estimate the job but I am stuck on how much prep I need to do to the walls. They are in good shape. But still, I'd like to meet her half way on quality. 

Can I just paint right over the existing without any prep? Should I wash all the walls first? If I sand all the walls first, do I then need to wash after or remove the dust another way?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

yes.
wash, scrape, power sand, power wash, repeat as needed


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> yes.
> wash, scrape, power sand, power wash, repeat as needed


That's cruel Steve. Sorry, BHawk66 this sounds more like a DIY question. No disrespect, but a professional painter would have more ideas on how to proceed with this, even if he was a rookie, at least I would hope so.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Tough crowd. I guess I am a rookie. I spent two years painting under the tutelage of a very Professional Painter doing only interiors in Chicago's exclusive North Shore area. He would always sand, patch and prime first and used only oils. Hence my doubt in this case. I m not used to doing a cheap job like this.

I did search DIY and other sites and got a variety of mixed suggestions. Some say sand, some say wash, some say spot wash, some say all the above.

I just want to be sure, from a reliable source, that if I just paint directly over what is existing, I am not totally screwing her over. If i need to wash walls, i will. Just want to get paid for it.

Sheesh.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Are the walls dirty? Containminated? If not, why wash? 
Adhesion is your concern- and latex to latex shouldn't have a problem. 
This really is 101 stuff. If you've been working with only oils you have had your head in the sand ( and fumes) for 2 years. Things are moving on.
If you think it has bulders flat on it, it will suck like a sponge. If you want to do right by this lady, first know what you are talking about, and then give her good advice. one coat will look like one coat. Not very good. 
patch, sand, prime as needed, 2 finish coats would be a pro job.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks BrushJockey. My experience with the painter who used oils was like 20 years ago. He would mix colors himself right on site. I'm telling ya this guy was good.

Anyway, job layoff forced me into painting for a living now. I can suggest it to her and see what she says, but if not, I was looking at second best option for her.


Man, you old pro's are a proud bunch. :notworthy:


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Incidently, BrushJockey, with what you said I suggest as a pro job, doesn't the price at least double, triple even?

Whats the difference in cost of doing one coat (high/cathedal ceilings) versus the "pro way", patch, sand, prime, 2 coat finish?

See what I mean?

If it's the same color and finish, couldn't I just apply a heavy coat?

(using Behr....let the harassment begin)


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Hawk

"cheap jobs" usually end up costing the contractor, either financially, or, worse yet, in reputation. That's why the respondents are uneasy in sending you down this road.

The fact is, customers think it should be half the price to do one coat instead of two. It's not. You still have to prep, protect, and get full coverage with one coat. It would be best to plan for two, especially if you are not that experienced or your skills are rusty.

It's one of those things...we could wear our boots with no laces, but it's best not to.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks guys, two coats it is. No wash this time. 

I do need the job as I am trying to break into this neighborhood and want a GOOD reference. If i have to loose money on this job, so be it.

FWIW, I hate doing a hack job. I was lucky to be taught first by someone who was a superior painter. Unfortunately, that can be a curse and a blessing. Now I can never seem to allow myself to do a half assed job even when it's worthy of one.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Also- If you're starting down the path of painting contractor as fall back plan- you should know ( by what you've said already) that you are not ready to do that as a pro. Your little experience is way out of date, and you have no one to show you what's up. Read the sticky here- 

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/new-members-visitors-so-you-think-you-want-painting-contractor-2879/

That's why you might get a little harshing on your buzz here. 

Best thing would be to find a good contractor and go work for him. Contractors are always looking for dependable, interested and valuable employees. And you'd learn stuff. 

BTW- I was doing what your old boss was 20 years ago too. Actually 30 come to thing of it.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

bhawk66 said:


> Thanks guys, two coats it is. No wash this time.
> 
> I do need the job as I am trying to break into this neighborhood and want a GOOD reference. If i have to loose money on this job, so be it.
> 
> FWIW, I hate doing a hack job. I was lucky to be taught first by someone who was a superior painter. Unfortunately, that can be a curse and a blessing. Now I can never seem to allow myself to do a half assed job even when it's worthy of one.


You might want to reconsider your comfort level with losing money on this job. You need to be as protective of your profit as your quality.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> Also- If you're starting down the path of painting contractor as fall back plan- you should know ( by what you've said already) that you are not ready to do that as a pro. Your little experience is way out of date, and you have no one to show you what's up. Read the sticky here-
> 
> http://www.painttalk.com/f2/new-members-visitors-so-you-think-you-want-painting-contractor-2879/
> 
> ...


Well, I never gave up painting. It became more of a side job for friends and family. Also, I used to buy fixer-uppers to live in and always rehabbed walls and experimented with different applications.

The neighborhood I am in is middle class with seemingly not a lot of extra money. So, I am confident enough in my abilities (I have some skillz) that I'm pretty sure no one in this neighborhood will be disappointed.

BTW, as a neewbie for the guy I worked with I was doing 90% of the prep work. If I was allowed to paint a wall it was like a holiday for me. I am well versed in prepping trim and doors, patch work, etc.

Just seems the average Joe homeowner down here wouldn't know a good brush from a ham sandwich.

Thank you for the links. I look forward to reviewing them.


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

bhawk66 said:


> BTW, as a neewbie for the guy I worked with I was doing 90% of the prep work. If I was allowed to paint a wall it was like a holiday for me. I am well versed in prepping trim and doors, patch work, etc.


 In the old days, you'd be lucky, aside from wiping pots and cleaning them, to put fingerprints on a brush in the first year. 

Bhawk, if the lady doesn't want, or have the money, to spend and she only wants a clean-up, give it to her. Just tell her what you're going to do. Tell if she wants more it's going to cost more. If she knows exactly what she's getting for the price she's paying, nobody's getting screwed. This isn't a decorative job, it's a clean up, she wants to brighten. Fix whatever pops or cracks there are and put two coats of standard contractor grade flat and all will be peachy. Don't make it complicated. There are Taj Mahals and chicken coops, you have to differentiate. In the words of a guy I use to work for, Stop thinking and paint.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

If those walls haven't been touched for some time, I don't know WHY you wouldn't wash them?!?!?

You eliminate the risk of any surface-contamination...period.

If they are in fact a "Flat", wash lightly.

I STRONGLY recommend POWDERED Dirtex...NOT the spray-bottle version of anything. Powdered Dirtex rarely requires rinsing. Most TSP's require 2 or 3 rinsing-passes.
I've used it myself...it's a very good pre-painting cleaner.
IMHO-It should be a "Painting Law"!
I stress this step to all our customers.

When dry...probably next day to be safe...do your coat of Finish-paint.
* Don't put it on heavy cuz "it's only one coat". That will likely lead to cracking, etc.
* Just one/normal full coat, ending with a vertical lay-off.

Faron


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

That was the conundrum I was dealing with. Given the two options of methods, wash walls with one coat finish, or no wash and straight two coat, I was trying to reason the first option being the better choice...Or if you'd rather, the lesser of two evils.

My common sense was telling me that applying paint to untouched walls of seven years would be...er...not wise.

Thank again, everyone!


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Yes...it can be a conundrum!

I would rather see you do the "Wash and 1-coat" scenario.

2 coats on UN-cleaned walls is rolling-the-dice...both with HER money and YOUR time!

Faron


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

Hahaha...okay, maybe not actually a conundrum. 


Still, one rookies conundrum is another pro's slam dunk.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Faron- 7 years, ( i assume) no visible contamination, possible builders flat and you're recommending washing with dirtex??? Sounds like adding a problem where none exists. 
I have read and appreciated your advice for a long time, but I have to call you on this one buddy...


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah...I kinda figured I'd get "called out" here!:yes:

I DID say "wash lightly" because of the high probability of a cheap flat. I'll still stand by that...but I should've also said...

"Use a weak solution, barely get the walls damp, and wash lightly"!

IMO...this will probably ward-off more problems than it creates. Believe-it-or-no"!
Try a small area first, on an out-of-the-way wall. Inspect the sponge closely. 
* If the existing paint just powders-off too easily, stop...and tell the H.O. that the wall should be primed first to stabilize the substrate. Some flats are better than others, so pay attention to this step.
* THEN...your one coat of flat (after primer)!
* If it's really coming off easily, haul out a gallon or 3 of Zinsser's Gardz primer. You'll be doing BOTH of you a favor!:thumbup:

Faron


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

bhawk66 said:


> Anyway, I have a potential client/customer who would like her entire first floor repainted using the same finish (flat) and color. Everything is the same off-white.
> 
> She is an elderly lady who wants everything freshened up but doesn't want to spend a lot so she suggested one-coating walls only.
> 
> ...


I'd say start from scratch and re-rock the whole first floor, but we'd be back to this same question after the drywall guy finished sanding, trapping us in a downward death spiral of torturous second guessing and worry. Paint the walls, give the old gal what she wants. If you don't, the next guy will. If you want to be "professional", give her a price to do whatever spackling/caulking is necessary and two coats, one primer/one finish or two finish, whatever. Then tell her you recommend doing whatever you feel will give her the better job, and tell her it'll be this much extra. She might trust/like you and part with the Franklins. If she says no, you gave her the option, she signed off on it. That's professionalism. Professionalism is not always walking away from a proposal because the customer doesn't want, or want to pay for, what you think should be done. A guaranteed failure or safety issue, absolutely, walk away. I know builder's flat is notorious as junk, but in my life I've never encountered systemic paint failure because a painter didn't wash the walls. I've never even heard of washing walls for this exact condition. We have to fight tooth and nail to get a decent buck to paint them, let alone wash them-- for what?, dust, next. I've painted new construction and repainted new construction, both for the first time and subsequent repaints. I've seen it create problems with sheen and absorbption rates, but you're using flat and ball park the materials if uncertain. Maybe it's a Florida thing, I don't know, but I know MAB made a flat specifically for Florida markets that ran about 30-35/5. After year one you probably had to wear a particle mask in the house. The bottom line is that you care, and the next guy may not. That counts, even though you feel the job may not be up to the standards you like, it's her house and she has to live with it. You're not bidding on coating the space shuttle, where lives could be lost if your coating fails. I said in my earlier post, stop thinking and paint. And Faron, Faron Faron, twenty five years ago some guy was probably standing around a paint outlet saying, You know, this lead thing, someday I'm gonna make a law . . .. 
Respectfully


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

LOL JS,JS,JS...
I thought you knew I WAS behind all the lead laws?!?!?:whistling2:

Again, respectfully...most jobs would benefit some from a wall-wash. In this case, a very LIGHT one! I realize it's fairly arbitrary, but any walls over 5 yrs. old are a little dirty.
It's not a huge deal obviously! I just don't like the idea of throwing paint on walls with NO prep. That's just ME though...

I'll shut-up now...

Faron


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

Unless these walls are covered in grandma's bacon grease why wash? If its dusty broom it off, if you can find out what product of paint was used ;one coat will be ok if they still make that product.(as long as grandma is not a smoker or lights cheap candles)


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

Faron79 said:


> LOL JS,JS,JS...
> I thought you knew I WAS behind all the lead laws?!?!?:whistling2:
> 
> Again, respectfully...most jobs would benefit some from a wall-wash. In this case, a very LIGHT one! I realize it's fairly arbitrary, but any walls over 5 yrs. old are a little dirty.
> ...


It's all good Faron. When you truly care about your product, it's easy to cross the line of overly cautious. I've had plenty question me over the years. Many have accused me of worrying too much, and in some cases I say they're right, and in others I've been proven right to worry. I was just starting to wonder if you secretly sell Dirtex, and just pretend to be a paint guy:shifty:. Just curious, BTW, how do you _lightly_ wash a wall, wouldn't it better to have them drycleaned?


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

what i would do .did the elderly lady smoke in the house im talking about nicotine stained walls ? that's another story.if she didn't then no worries . spot wash around light switch,dust baseboards dust walls ,i mean 10 min. per room tops . kitchen might need a little cleaning around stove and ceiling around stove maybe 30 min.top. then paint it man you got to know how to read your clientele . this is perfectly acceptable.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Doing the job the right way is always my first recommendation. However, in many places the economy is still in a slump and not everybody has money to burn. That said, if she wants a one-coat paint job then all you can do is offer her your recommendations, tell her why you don't think it would be enough, but still offer to provide the service while covering your ass should it not work out the way she wanted it to. 

One coat of the same colour same sheen shouldn't be a problem. Just give the walls a scuff sand and a good coat of paint. No need to wash them. 

Now had you said you were going to one coat it with behr in a different colour.........:no:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bhawk66 said:


> Thanks BrushJockey. My experience with the painter who used oils was like 20 years ago. He would mix colors himself right on site. I'm telling ya this guy was good.
> 
> Anyway, job layoff forced me into painting for a living now. I can suggest it to her and see what she says, but if not, I was looking at second best option for her.
> 
> ...


 We are also accustomed to having someone like you around for the past 3 years, who lost their real job and woke up one day a painting contractor. You seem smart, even educated, lets assume you are a stand up guy.

So when a homeowner reviews our bids yours is usually thousands less. Considering you sold the client on the pros I listed in the previous paragraph, makes other business' with real employees, insurance, 10s of thousands in vehicles and equipment, look like we are completely price crazy.

Bah thus is the free market thou. I see guys in the trades selling every tool they own, trailers and all for a fraction of their worth at least once a week in my town. 

Its sad, and yet I rejoice when I see this because the law of supply and demand is equalizing things. 


PS you sound like a low balling hack. No offense, but its true and I can't believe no one has posted it yet.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

No offense either, straightlines, but you sound a little bitter. Life's a bitch all over, not just in the field of painting. You think this is the only industry where "low-ballers" invade? Think again, it's everywhere, my friend. Why do you think I was layed off from my last gig?

I don't consider myself a hack, thank you very much. But I also don't consider myself a 4 star professional either. There is room for all of us, imo. Did you ever think that those guys selling their equipment in your neighborhood did that for other reasons besides "low-ball hacks" taking all the work? Maybe some realized it wasn't worth it, or maybe, just maybe, the general public isn't spending extra dollars on having their rooms painted by a painter who bids only the most professional paint job?

I graduated from Northern Illinois University with a B.F.A in Graphic Design, hated my chosen field and wound up trying 10 different things for the next 20 years. The first two years were spent with the aforementioned pro-painter. been painting rooms ever since...just not full time.

I use my design skills in everything I do. I know how to paint....good enough to be paid for it. I combed my neighborhood going door to door with flyers I made dropping each one off at the doorstep. (the flyers looked good thanks to my design education)

I earned the bid.

and I have the utmost respect for quality professional painters.

PS: The bid which she accepted today, including the suggestion of two coats....thanks to the advice received here. Respectfully, Mark


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am not bitter, I am an observer of fact. Trade work has gone downhill since the 90s. Now there are illegal Hispanics everywhere.

I digress, and that isn't the reason I responded. You asking surface preparation on interior repainting of GWB shows just how unqualified a painter you are. These are things an $8/hr painters helper would know. Yes methods, and materials have changed drastically since you painted for a couple of years 20 years ago.

I didn't read every reply in this thread, but proper surface prep would be sanding and dust moping. You should do a light sanding, and dusting between each coat as well.

edit..

Also if I had a degree in graphics design I would do whatever I had to do to land a job with Valve, or a couple of other cool gaming studios. Always wanted to design games for a living.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd rather slap an extra coat on for free then wash walls. 
I'm a painter, not a cleaning lady.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Bender said:


> I'd rather slap an extra coat on for free then wash walls.
> I'm a painter, not a cleaning lady.


 
you mean you dont have any soap in your tool box????


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Rcon said:


> Doing the job the right way is always my first recommendation. However, in many places the economy is still in a slump and not everybody has money to burn. That said, if she wants a one-coat paint job then all you can do is offer her your recommendations, tell her why you don't think it would be enough, but still offer to provide the service while covering your ass should it not work out the way she wanted it to.
> 
> One coat of the same colour same sheen shouldn't be a problem. Just give the walls a scuff sand and a good coat of paint. No need to wash them.
> 
> Now had you said you were going to one coat it with behr in a different colour.........:no:


You may have missed it...there was a thread recently in which the majority determined that a quick pole sand prior to any wall paint application was absurd and unnecessary. Get with the times.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> I am not bitter, I am an observer of fact. Trade work has gone downhill since the 90s. Now there are illegal Hispanics everywhere.
> 
> edit..
> 
> Also if I had a degree in graphics design I would do whatever I had to do to land a job with Valve, or a couple of other cool gaming studios. Always wanted to design games for a living.



Hasn't there always been "illegals" working everywhere? I know we had them in Chicagoland in the 80's. 

To your edit: It's kinda funny you say that. Any job I've ever done where manual labor is involved, and there have been more than a few, whenever I would tell a co-worker that I had a degree in something they would all say the same thing. "If I had a degree, I'd be..." Grass is always greener...

But hey, it's never too late.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> You may have missed it...there was a thread recently in which the majority determined that a quick pole sand prior to any wall paint application was absurd and unnecessary. Get with the times.



I don't know if you guys have the option here, but I've been a member of a hockey fan board for the last couple years and when someone is being sarcastic they highlight the text in a different color. Helps keep everyone on the same page.

Now, take that pole sander and...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

No we didn't have millions of Mexicans in the south 10 years ago. I know up north it has always been different, however I didn't think illegals were a huge problem until the last decade or so.

Yea I seriously thought about going back to school for game design, especially during the recession. I love digital art, and am a self taught PS user. Never done animations, but have made a couple of maps for PC games like TF2 and Cod4. :thumbsup:


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## paintr56 (Jan 21, 2010)

You do not want to lose money to get into a new area. You are hoping she will spread the word about you, and if you do a good job she will. The problem with losing money on this job to get into the area is that the word will always include how cheap you are. When you bid after that using the correct pricing people will feel you are ripping them off because you only charged half that for Mrs. X.

Jim


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

If it's going back the same color, I don't see the problem with one coat. Patch what you need to, sand walls and patches, spot prime patches, paint walls.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

just walk away.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Paint your mom's house (or your own) with one coat to see how it turns out. Then do your brother's, sister's, aunt's til you know what to expect. I think the advice of working for a modern day painter for a few months is best. You may also get some experience at the most important part of this equation... how to price.

In your head is this little voice telling you that you are going to break into this neighborhood. It won't happen. Two possible outcomes.
1. Your job is going to look like crap. No referral there.
2. Your job will look good but it will take you 3x-4x as long as any real professional and you will inconvenience the customer to the point she will be anxious for you to be GONE.

No referral there either. This is not you. This happens to all of us in our chosen vocation. You try to work out the kinks and do research on a game plan BEFORE you start handing out fliers. Sorry, man, I agree you sound like another potential hack.


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## tapont71 (Mar 24, 2011)

paintr56 said:


> You do not want to lose money to get into a new area. You are hoping she will spread the word about you, and if you do a good job she will. The problem with losing money on this job to get into the area is that the word will always include how cheap you are. When you bid after that using the correct pricing people will feel you are ripping them off because you only charged half that for Mrs. X.
> 
> Jim


Hello guys...I just joined here and decided to just jump in and see whats going on...

I totally agree with you on this. I say stick to a price..if you want to get in a specific area, run a special discount for that specific area. But don't skimp on your bids just to get in. I noticed the original poster is from Jacksonville as I. If its one thing I've learned here and this goes for any business you have...you must be transparent to your client. If you bid on a job, you have to have a detailed list to justify your price. People will spend the money if you can give a detailed list for what you are asking and it has to be justifiable and you have to know your business in order to do that. NO B.S. Theres plenty of work out there still...you just have to separate yourself from the "weekend" painters. How do you that? Be a professional and learn your trade.


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## bhawk66 (Mar 19, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Paint your mom's house (or your own) with one coat to see how it turns out. Then do your brother's, sister's, aunt's til you know what to expect. I think the advice of working for a modern day painter for a few months is best. You may also get some experience at the most important part of this equation... how to price.
> 
> In your head is this little voice telling you that you are going to break into this neighborhood. It won't happen. Two possible outcomes.
> 1. Your job is going to look like crap. No referral there.
> ...


You lifers really need to get over yourselves. It pisses some off that any Moe could hand out flyers and get the job. Boo hoo. You know what? The job is done and I got paid 750 for just walls. No trim. She loves it and offered to be used as a reference, any time. That's right. SHE offered to be used as a reference

This "hack" just scored. 

Next!


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

good for you man keep on going.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

bhawk66 said:


> She loves it and offered to be used as a reference, any time. That's right. SHE offered to be used as a reference


That is good, keep up the good work as most of your leads as a start up should come from referrals. :thumbsup: Well after the friends, friends of friends and family thing dries up. 

Is licensing required in your area? If so get one so you are operating legally.


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