# Compatibility of paint retarder question



## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

I'm using an oil based high gloss enamel, plagued with solvent pop from the second the product hits the substrate. 2-Butoxyethanol i've heard stops solvent pop, however is it compatible with an oil based enamel? And also i've looked into Lacquer retarder but this paint isn't a lacquer what is one to do.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Can you post some pictures? Are you sure it's solvent pop and not dust? FPE has such a long open time it's really difficult to not find dust in things. In fact I haven't ever seen solvent pop but plagued by dust every time I move to a different corner

And yes 2-Butoxyethanol can be added to most oil and water based coatings where it acts as a surfactant to lower surface tension


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

Yan1 said:


> I'm using an oil based high gloss enamel, plagued with solvent pop from the second the product hits the substrate. 2-Butoxyethanol i've heard stops solvent pop, however is it compatible with an oil based enamel? And also i've looked into Lacquer retarder but this paint isn't a lacquer what is one to do.


I used it before and had great results with it.
Marvelous finish.


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Can you post some pictures? Are you sure it's solvent pop and not dust? FPE has such a long open time it's really difficult to not find dust in things. In fact I haven't ever seen solvent pop but plagued by dust every time I move to a different corner
> 
> And yes 2-Butoxyethanol can be added to most oil and water based coatings where it acts as a surfactant to lower surface tension


Yes, so far it sounds like a an application error.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

When choosing the proper solvent to retard the drying of oil paints, you would first need to look at the SDS and determine the diluent type solvents and their initial boiling points/ranges, then use a non-polar organic solvent with a higher initial boiling point/range, being that a solvent’s boiling point is inversely proportional to its rate of evaporation.

Using Hollandlac Brilliant 98 as an example, the diluent-solvent listed on the SDS is naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy which has an initial boiling point/range of 155-217°C. You’d want to use a heavier solvent with a higher boiling point which would be Kerosene (petroleum) CAS Number: 0008008-20-6 with an initial boiling point/range of 180-245 C.

Although 2-butoxyethanol aka butyl cellosolve has an initial boiling point of 171 C and is used in several solvent borne alkyd formulations, it’s not miscible in all organic solvents and might require a co-solvent for it to disperse if added to oil paint.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I think this is your second post regarding solvent pop??

You give no indication what product is that you are using? Just generic oil-enamel. Some of us around the country do not, can not, want to, use oil-enamels so what you are asking is pretty archaic to say the least. 
With the issue at hand, substrate and previous coating plays the biggest roll in how your current coating will play with the old stuff. Did you prime? I doubt it, so that would be your first step. Prime out a section with compatible primer then apply a coat to see what happens. Honestly this will solve your problem, but really just read the PDS of your product and see what they recommend. An extender would be penetrol, extender solvent would be VM&P naptha.


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I think this is your second post regarding solvent pop??


Yes, it is.
Yes, there is something odd about the OP.
Maybe he is not using a respirator.


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Can you post some pictures? Are you sure it's solvent pop and not dust? FPE has such a long open time it's really difficult to not find dust in things. In fact I haven't ever seen solvent pop but plagued by dust every time I move to a different corner
> 
> And yes 2-Butoxyethanol can be added to most oil and water based coatings where it acts as a surfactant to lower surface tension


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I think this is your second post regarding solvent pop??
> 
> You give no indication what product is that you are using? Just generic oil-enamel. Some of us around the country do not, can not, want to, use oil-enamels so what you are asking is pretty archaic to say the least.
> With the issue at hand, substrate and previous coating plays the biggest roll in how your current coating will play with the old stuff. Did you prime? I doubt it, so that would be your first step. Prime out a section with compatible primer then apply a coat to see what happens. Honestly this will solve your problem, but really just read the PDS of your product and see what they recommend. An extender would be penetrol, extender solvent would be VM&P naptha.


Fine paints of europe. brushing, the substrate is wooden cabinets with prior FPE coating from two years ago, yes I primed did everything by the book, so thank you for the "i doubt it" the primer is the most important step. FPE told me i didnt even need to because i was doing it over there product but I did anyway. and i tried all forms of thinning and yes penetrol. the oddity is two years ago when i used this same painting system, penetrol and warming the paint it worked fantastic. why now. is it the sandpaper, is it the humidity, is it paint seeding. is it the pigment because its a white with a touch of black. it could be a myriad of things. however it was not dust as i know its 98 specular gloss I had a negative pressure no dust room and a tyvek suit and all. please tell me where i failed.


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

Don Painting Services said:


> Yes, it is.
> Yes, there is something odd about the OP.
> Maybe he is not using a respirator.


Are you on here to troll and make childish little digs like that? are you 14? You seem to enjoy instigating and antagonizing is that how a professional of many decades conducts himself? moreover. we are here to help one another. please desist with your sophomoric trolling and display (not just declare) display your professionalism as a painter and your common decency as a human.


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Can you post some pictures? Are you sure it's solvent pop and not dust? FPE has such a long open time it's really difficult to not find dust in things. In fact I haven't ever seen solvent pop but plagued by dust every time I move to a different corner
> 
> And yes 2-Butoxyethanol can be added to most oil and water based coatings where it acts as a surfactant to lower surface tension


I did. and these microbubbles appear when it hits the substrate, and they dont go away its not dust. its gotta be something reactive or too much solvent thats why I keep mentioning a retarder. i cant use too much penetrol it has an amber color.


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

Redux said:


> When choosing the proper solvent to retard the drying of oil paints, you would first need to look at the SDS and determine the diluent type solvents and their initial boiling points/ranges, then use a non-polar organic solvent with a higher initial boiling point/range, being that a solvent’s boiling point is inversely proportional to its rate of evaporation.
> 
> Using Hollandlac Brilliant 98 as an example, the diluent-solvent listed on the SDS is naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy which has an initial boiling point/range of 155-217°C. You’d want to use a heavier solvent with a higher boiling point which would be Kerosene (petroleum) CAS Number: 0008008-20-6 with an initial boiling point/range of 180-245 C.
> 
> Although 2-butoxyethanol aka butyl cellosolve has an initial boiling point of 171 C and is used in several solvent borne alkyd formulations, it’s not miscible in all organic solvents and might require a co-solvent for it to disperse if added to oil paint.


Thank you, thats all viable info, I did look at the boiling points and I did use white kerosene but that made a horrible reaction, and I beg of you, what co-solvent dispurses it? I found a product called no-Pop and in the msds it says its made from diethylene glycol monobutyl ether, claiming it is meant for oil based coatings.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

This may be a silly question, but do you have a temp/humidity gauge in the booth. I would imagine climate control would be quite important with that product, but have never used it. Some of the pics almost look like seeding, but I proper curing temp/times more probable.? Also, What sort of tack cloth are you using if any?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Yan1 said:


> Fine paints of europe. brushing, the substrate is wooden cabinets with prior FPE coating from two years ago, yes I primed did everything by the book, so thank you for the "i doubt it" the primer is the most important step. FPE told me i didnt even need to because i was doing it over there product but I did anyway. and i tried all forms of thinning and yes penetrol. the oddity is two years ago when i used this same painting system, penetrol and warming the paint it worked fantastic. why now. is it the sandpaper, is it the humidity, is it paint seeding. is it the pigment because its a white with a touch of black. it could be a myriad of things. however it was not dust as i know its 98 specular gloss I had a negative pressure no dust room and a tyvek suit and all. please tell me where i failed.


Have you tried batch of paint over a different substrate or does the bubbles only appear on these cabinets?


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> This may be a silly question, but do you have a temp/humidity gauge in the booth. I would imagine climate control would be quite important with that product, but have never used it. Some of the pics almost look like seeding, but I proper curing temp/times more probable.? Also, What sort of tack cloth are you using if any?


I do and im going by the book on FPE guidlines. the only thing I can fester a guess is I used a glass chalice to hold some of the paint mixing with some of there mineral spirits and penetrol, wouldnt you know the paint on the cabinets was botched but the glass i left dried flawless finish. I wonder if im not wiping the stearate from the sandpaper well enough, or its surface tension.
View attachment 114781


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Have you tried batch of paint over a different substrate or does the bubbles only appear on these cabinets?


Painting over fine paints seems to be the death but the irony is it states: multiple thin coats. well hows that possible. i wonder if the stearate from the sandpaper is leaving a residue, that and surface tension.


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> This may be a silly question, but do you have a temp/humidity gauge in the booth. I would imagine climate control would be quite important with that product, but have never used it. Some of the pics almost look like seeding, but I proper curing temp/times more probable.? Also, What sort of tack cloth are you using if any?


Aha! you see the seeding too! but it only happens after i apply it, i've run it through a filter why seed after the fact. and i used dura gold tack plus vacuum and a cloth with a bit of water (as recommended by multiple ppl though i dont like the idea) its almost as if the newly applied layer affects the previous layer which I wouldve staked my life on that after 4 days it had cured.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Yan1 said:


> Aha! you see the seeding too! but it only happens after i apply it, i've run it through a filter why seed after the fact. and i used dura gold tack plus vacuum and a cloth with a bit of water (as recommended by multiple ppl though i dont like the idea) its almost as if the newly applied layer affects the previous layer which I wouldve staked my life on that after 4 days it had cured.
> ..
> *Painting over fine paints *seems to be the death but the irony is it states: multiple thin coats. well hows that possible. i wonder if the stearate from the sandpaper is leaving a residue, that and surface tension.


I would guess some sort of solvent entrapment. These oil paints can take many months to completely off gas and if applied heavy like the pictures I sent you of the red room we just completed may find wet spots a year or two later. If we had applied a second coat even several days later the entire ceiling may have curtained as it was ever so slightly on an angle.


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

_I have a novel idea how to deal with this problem!!!_
If it was me...
I would contact FPOU directly, sending them the pictures and asking them for help, instead on a forum where it's obvious that there are not many
painters who are experienced with this very temperamental paint.
But what do I know, I'm just a sophomoric troll.

BTW,
to make your life easier, here is a link to FPOE.
(Don't say that I never did anything for you).








Fine Paints of Europe - Luxurious Lasting Color. Imported from Holland


Provides the finest paints and personalized service to discriminating homeowners, paint professionals, and the architectural and design community.




finepaintsofeurope.com





BTW-2,
you already know the answer to your problem, you mention it already few times.
Unless your spray hose is contaminated.
But I think it's the other thing.

I really like the first picture, it looks like a moon surrounded by stars, lol


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

FPOE
SuperNova


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## Don Painting Services (4 mo ago)

FPOE
Glass chalice in blue.


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## cbinc (Mar 16, 2015)

looks like air entrainment to me. as the paint film dries, it shrinks...those bubbles almost make to the surface...and can't quite pop. sometimes a backbrush technique will fix. ??? not sure what the fix is really.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

cbinc said:


> looks like air entrainment to me. as the paint film dries, it shrinks...those bubbles almost make to the surface...and can't quite pop. sometimes a backbrush technique will fix. ??? not sure what the fix is really.


We were brushing out hollandlac and feathering it out with a Wooster black foam jumbo koter. Indistinguishable from the sprayed portions it was blended into


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## Sashwright (4 mo ago)

@Yan1 I’m having the same issue with Fpoe hollandlac brilliant with ‘seeding’. Every precaution related to cleanliness and contamination is being followed. Have you found a solution here? Despite the grumpys there are great resources here! 



Yan1 said:


> View attachment 114765
> View attachment 114766
> View attachment 114767
> View attachment 114769
> View attachment 114770


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## Yan1 (4 mo ago)

Sashwright said:


> @Yan1 I’m having the same issue with Fpoe hollandlac brilliant with ‘seeding’. Every precaution related to cleanliness and contamination is being followed. Have you found a solution here? Despite the grumpys there are great resources here!


No there are more than grumpys, idk what the point of this forum is nobody really helps they just state what they did and how perfect it worked. yes the seeding is an issue ive averted ive found there mineral spirits is too harsh and causes seeding aswell as warming it so if i can help, Try a thinner coat, and use if you can a mineral spirits thats not theres.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> We were brushing out hollandlac and feathering it out with a Wooster black foam jumbo koter. Indistinguishable from the sprayed portions it was blended into


Just read this for the first time now. That's good info. You may have used FPOE more than I, so in your experience, is the Wooster black foam jumbo koter the best applicator you've found to most resemble spraying?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Just read this for the first time now. That's good info. You may have used FPOE more than I, so in your experience, is the Wooster black foam jumbo koter the best applicator you've found to most resemble spraying?


yes but you jut kiss the material with it to get rid of the brush marks, not as an applicator


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> yes but you jut kiss the material with it to get rid of the brush marks, not as an applicator


“Just kiss the material with it”? 
That’s a new one for me but I like it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

slinger58 said:


> “Just kiss the material with it”?
> That’s a new one for me but I like it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't think it would work with anything water base, FPE has enough open time to do it


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

slinger58 said:


> “Just kiss the material with it”?
> That’s a new one for me but I like it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is how I was taught to kiss the material by my wood finishing mentor:
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/28/e7/4a/28e74a316f41078e840870ba4234635b--tung-oil-wood-finishing.jpg


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Don't think it would work with anything water base, FPE has enough open time to do it


Do you have a link to that roller?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Do you have a link to that roller?











Wooster 4-1/2 in. High-Density Pro Foam Cage Frame Mini Roller Cover (2-Pack) 0HR2670044 - The Home Depot


Get a super-smooth paint finish with the Wooster Pro Foam Mini Cage Roller Covers. There is no texture or stipple with the high-density foam and they won't skid when in use. These covers are ideal for



www.homedepot.com


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