# Tannin Bleed Through on Pre-Primed Interior Wood



## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Hey guys & gals, a few years ago I took on a job where the interior woodwork was brand new and "Pre-Primed". It was also "finger jointed" woodwork that was comprised of multiple pieces of wood all glued together to make one piece. My customer purchased this wood, even though I wasn't a fan of it due to the fact that I had no control over the primer. I wanted to re-prime it but the customer didn't think it was needed so that was not done. After it was installed, I did the typical prep work such as filling holes, sanding, caulking, and the vacuuming of dust, then gave it three coats of Semi-Gloss interior trim paint with a sanding & vacuuming between coats. It looked fantastic when completed with an even sheen and smooth as glass. Everyone was happy!

Fast forward to this week when I got a call and the customer is telling me that their is considerable bleed through of the tannins all over the place. It's driving him nuts and he wants to hire me to come and fix it.

I went over to look at it and there is considerable bleed through. While there, I brushed on some Glidden "Gripper" primer over few spots as a test to see if it would hide the bleed through. I usually have excellent luck when using this product but this time it wouldn't hide the stains. 

I'm looking for feedback on the best interior latex primers that will hide these stains. I know that I could use B.I.N. but my experience with that product over the years tells me that it becomes brittle over time and eventually cracks and peels. I really don't want to go with an oil based primer because they have a child and are really concerned with the vapors.

Any feedback that any of you could offer on latex based stain blockers will be greatly appreciated. Oh, I have access to Benjamin Moore Paints and Sherwin Williams Paints as well. Thanks!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I've never had a situation where preprimed wood regardless as to whether it was finger jointed had bleed through. Weird.

Anyhoo, it would seem you're in a bit of a pickle here as I've never seen latex primers that would seal tannin bleed through or knots in wood. BIN does an excellent job for this, however the fumes, etc. are brutal. Oil will likely do the job as well, but again... Fumes.

It's tough in these situations with kids present. People want the job done well, but don't want to have to experience the process. I had one customer that was freakishly concerned and didn't even want me using latex paint when they were home. She'd call me the night before they were going somewhere expecting me to drop everything.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Is it poplar or pine? Sounds like"pitch" bleed. Pitch is solvent soluble. Latex primer first such as 046 Fresh Start. It may continue to bleed because of the disparity in different woods cut from different trees with different dimensional stability finger jointed together. Generally the "pitch" has to be "set" (setting the pitch) in lumber terms. If not properly set during the Kiln drying process at the proper temperature for a given species the wood will always weep. kilns sometimes don't raise the temperature enough to set it because of the energy expense is greater then the margins on the wood.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback. I feel as though I did everything correct on my part - with the exception of re-priming, which my customer did not think was necessary. I've never really seen the pre-primed finger jointed woodwork bleed inside either but I have seen it bleed on trim that was outdoors. In fact, this is the first time I've seen bleed through on interior woodwork. I'm in a dilemma! 

I don't know if it was Pine or Poplar because it was already installed when I showed up to do the work and being pre-primed, I couldn't really tell. Thanks for the recommendation on the Benjamin Moore primer! I was just on their website looking at the "Fresh Start" High-Hiding All Purpose Primer (046) that you recommended.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I know Dulux sells an 'odorless' version of coverstain. I'm not sure how well it works for tannins though. Anytime you work with new wood always prime with oil, period


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I've used Zinsser odourless oil primer in the past. Wasn't a huge fan of it though.

Keep in mind that just because it doesn't smell as bad as regular Coverstain doesn't mean the harmful fumes aren't still there. I've been poisoned by Coverstain in the past.

Wow, was that ever not a fun day.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Yes, Cover-Stain got me once before as well. I was priming a bathroom inside a giant industrial building and there was no ventilation whatsoever. I've refrained from that product for inside use ever since then. Not fun when you become delirious and can lose your balance.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Only thing I can think of is removing, take to the shop to redo, or remove and replace. Agree both suck but with the circumstances anything else seems like pulling the ''guess what" on the candy machine.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I would try SW problock. I have had some success when oder is an issue. It may take 2 coats but it doesnt stink. Works great on paneling if you degloss it first.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

I'd vote odourless or original coverstain. If fumes absolutely have to be avoided (brushing out some base wouldn't be bad IMO) I would try something like fresh start. Sometimes they work sometimes not but remember latex primers usually require 2 coats or more and need to be spaced out as per specs.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Try Zinnsers 123 primer plus. Low odor and excellent stain blocker!:yes:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I wasted 15 man hours last week on a 500 square foot ceiling and trim package thinking oil would block everything out. The next room we did a light shellac coat on everything and it came out great.


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## darrpreb00 (Aug 31, 2008)

I use zinnser oil on all mdf and other trim as well after my chinease fake primer nightmare. Waterbased blows. Done 4 houses since and no more issues. Good luck


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> I wasted 15 man hours last week on a 500 square foot ceiling and trim package thinking oil would block everything out. The next room we did a light shellac coat on everything and it came out great.



Did you use 1 or 2 coats of the oil primer? Most stubborn stains or tannins are blocked between 1st & 2nd coat of primer, provided sufficient time is allotted between coats. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Trossi3389 (Jul 14, 2014)

For situations like these i always went safe.. i'd recommend "Cabots "Problem Solver" Acrylic - it's more of a exterior Primer of course but it's a great product i used interior situations.. it comes white only (Never Tint) it's a killer product. also great as a cabinet primer too (eggshell & up topcoats) so as far as knots & heavy tanning bleed try that... zinn's or Stixx would prob be my 2nd option... whatever u do, don't let anyone talk you into killz acrylic but i have a hunch you know that already.. gl


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Zinsser Smart Prime should work.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> I wasted 15 man hours last week on a 500 square foot ceiling and trim package thinking oil would block everything out. The next room we did a light shellac coat on everything and it came out great.



I'm no expert and generally use BIN when I can but have found with tannins oils don't like redwoods. Sometimes 2 coats will do the trick though


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Did you use 1 or 2 coats of the oil primer? Most stubborn stains or tannins are blocked between 1st & 2nd coat of primer, provided sufficient time is allotted between coats.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


We did two coats, but the problem was really where the house had seen so much wind driven hurricane damage over 40 years. It had never been painted in that time. All stain grade trim, popcorn ceilings, and wood paneling. 

Generally we use oil for priming paneling, and it did well on it just the ceilings and crown that bled like crazy. It was 24 hrs between coats, and another 24 before topcoat.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys. I ended up picking up a quart of Benjamin Moore's "Fresh Start" High-Hiding All Purpose Primer (046) to try out. I went over there and sanded, vacuumed, and applied a coat to the worst areas and told him to see if it held back the bleed through for a few days or a week before calling me back. It seemed to cover it exceptionally well for one coat but I won't know if it bleeds through until we allow some time to go by. 

If this fails I will move on to B.I.N. but like I mentioned earlier, I've seen it become brittle over time and crack/peel, bringing the topcoats with it. I must admit that when I have seen it peel, it was on outdoor use where it was used to seal knots in exterior pine trim. Have any of you ever had that problem with B.I.N. before?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've seen Bin fail like that when used as a solid prime on exteriors. Bin is a vapor barrier, not permeable at all. That's why (partially anyway) its not rated for ext use except for spot priming.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Your post stated the wood was pre-primed and "cuss"tomer didnt see where it was necessary to reprime but I always re prime factory primed wood for added insurance for reasons such as your case.It hard fo know how long that primed substrate had been sitting around and anything over 30 days or so loses it performance to do what it was intended to do.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

mudbone said:


> Your post stated the wood was pre-primed and "cuss"tomer didnt see where it was necessary to reprime but I always re prime factory primed wood for added insurance for reasons such as your case.It hard fo know how long that primed substrate had been sitting around and anything over 30 days or so loses it performance to do what it was intended to do.


Ps. Any other approach your just Hissing into the wind I'm afraid:whistling2:


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## burchptg (Jun 30, 2013)

I'd try to find the water leak first. Tannin bleed means exactly that: bleed, ie, liquid is running through the wood. Tannins are chemicals that dissolve in water. That's why you don't normally see it in interiors. Unless, of course, water is getting into the wood. Even if you prime with oil, you'll have problems because the water is getting in from behind and the primer will lift off from underneath. Is it the roof? leaky pipes? steamy showers? sounds like it's not your fault.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

burchptg said:


> I'd try to find the water leak first. Tannin bleed means exactly that: bleed, ie, liquid is running through the wood. Tannins are chemicals that dissolve in water. That's why you don't normally see it in interiors. Unless, of course, water is getting into the wood. Even if you prime with oil, you'll have problems because the water is getting in from behind and the primer will lift off from underneath. Is it the roof? leaky pipes? steamy showers? sounds like it's not your fault.


It is my understandings tannins is oils in certain wood and these continue to leech for years even after the wood was cut if left unsealed. It has nothing to do with water. That is why some woods bleed tannins and some don't. And if you use the right wood in an interior you will certainly get bleed.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Tell the HO to take off for the day. Use bin and crack all the windows and doors and be done with it.


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## Trossi3389 (Jul 14, 2014)

You know what i've heard nothing but great things with that "Fresh Start" .. let us know how it worked out for ya in the end.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

burchptg said:


> I'd try to find the water leak first. Tannin bleed means exactly that: bleed, ie, liquid is running through the wood. Tannins are chemicals that dissolve in water. That's why you don't normally see it in interiors. Unless, of course, water is getting into the wood. Even if you prime with oil, you'll have problems because the water is getting in from behind and the primer will lift off from underneath. Is it the roof? leaky pipes? steamy showers? sounds like it's not your fault.


 There is no water leak. This tannin bleed through is random and is all over the house on window casings, door casings, baseboard, and ceiling molding. The pieces that are bleeding are individual boards within the finger jointed boards. For instance, picture an eight foot header board of trim over a triple slider and it's made up of 15 pieces of wood. Only certain pieces are bleeding while the others are still White as can be from the three topcoats. It's truly mind boggling but it's due to the crappy primer that was applied at the factory. Nobody knows what they're using except for the company that's buying it and having it applied, and the company that's selling it. The end user never knows.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Trossi3389 said:


> You know what i've heard nothing but great things with that "Fresh Start" .. let us know how it worked out for ya in the end.


 Will do! I've been on vacation this week but on Monday I'll call my customer to find out the verdict on whether the Fresh Start blocked the bleed through. If it did, I'll be over there soon to apply it to the rest of the bleed stains, and to finish it off.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

UPDATE: I called my customer last week and he said that the Benjamin Moore Fresh Start blocked the tannin bleed through so I went over there yesterday to continue the priming. What I found was that the Fresh Start did not block it out, so I didn't waste anymore time there. I told my customer that I'd do some more research on latex based products and get back to him. I've been doing a lot of reading on the XIM brand of primers/sealers. Has anyone tried these primers and if so, how did you like them?

http://ximbonder.com/?xim_products=prime-start

Personally, I believe that I am not going to get good results with a latex based product but I'm trying my hardest to appease this customer as they're really concerned about vapors.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Hissing Cobra said:


> UPDATE: I called my customer last week and he said that the Benjamin Moore Fresh Start blocked the tannin bleed through so I went over there yesterday to continue the priming. What I found was that the Fresh Start did not block it out, so I didn't waste anymore time there. I told my customer that I'd do some more research on latex based products and get back to him. I've been doing a lot of reading on the XIM brand of primers/sealers. Has anyone tried these primers and if so, how did you like them?
> 
> http://ximbonder.com/?xim_products=prime-start
> 
> Personally, I believe that I am not going to get good results with a latex based product but I'm trying my hardest to appease this customer as they're really concerned about vapors.


You're right acrylics won't stop the tannin bleed. One coat of an alkyd will. Try the odorless coverstain, or jammer, I've only ever used the odorless before and it works, but sands like a$$

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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Reviving this thread because I wanted to share with you the results of the XIM latex based primer. Simply put, it didn't work at all. I could tell within the first five minutes that it wasn't going to work. Thus, I made the call right then and there to go to an oil based primer.

That's 3 latex based primer's that failed to hold the bleeding in check. 

1. Glidden's "Gripper"
2. Benjamin Moore's "Fresh Start"
3. XIM's "Prime-Start"

After switching over to Benjamin Moore's oil Based "Fresh Start" I could tell that I was making progress. However, I needed two coats to completely kill 100% of the bleeding. Yes, the vapors were difficult for the homeowners to deal with but they understood that the oil based product was needed to rectify this problem. I finished it off with two coats of latex based White semi-gloss enamel and the woodwork looks outstanding!

Thanks all for your input!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Like I said in my previous post should have tried 123 primer plus.would have saved you time and frustration factors, let alone big headache from oil fumes.Live and learn I guess.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm not sure you can really tell in five minutes with a WB stain blocker. Sometimes stains will bleed through the primer but be locked in the film and not come through the finish. I still find it hard to trust WB primers for blocking myself, but I have seen 123+ perform very well on knotty pine. 

Oil is going the way of the dinosaur, going to have to adapt.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Really, I could tell. There was no way that it was going to cover it. It was acting the same way as the latex based Fresh Start and the latex based Gripper. I wasn't going to waste anymore time with it and went with an old, trusty product. Even with the oil, I could see that I was making progress but it did need a 2nd coat to hide it 100%.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, some knots just have an attitude and aren't about to be stopped easily.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yeah, some knots just have an attitude and aren't about to be stopped easily.


Sorta like knot heads.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

mudbone said:


> Sorta like knot heads.


 There's a lot of those! LOL!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

This is one of those countless threads I always talk about when I say, "Never use any paint that doesn't block stains." Does your high dollar paint block stains? Probably not. It is just one extra layer of protection, especially in regards to the OP. It his case, no primer would have been needed whatsoever and this post wouldn't exist.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> This is one of those countless threads I always talk about when I say, "Never use any paint that doesn't block stains." Does your high dollar paint block stains? Probably not. It is just one extra layer of protection, especially in regards to the OP. It his case, no primer would have been needed whatsoever and this post wouldn't exist.


Are you saying he should have just used an oil based finish paint and it would have solved it or do you have an acrylic trim paint that you use that blocks tannins?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

jacob33 said:


> Are you saying he should have just used an oil based finish paint and it would have solved it or do you have an acrylic trim paint that you use that blocks tannins?



I have a feeling we are hearing a legend of the mighty behr 

Good to see a post of two from JP.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

This picture is one of the rooms I completed 7 years ago and this is what it looked like when I was done. The bleeding that came through over the past 7 years is unbelievable, especially because it wasn't bleeding before I started.










These pictures are from the same house but from different casings.




























It's too bad too because the doors, window sashes, and moldings on top of the baseboards still look like I painted them yesterday. I'm really glad that the oil primer (although it needed 2 coats) has blocked the bleeding. 

I've learned a valuable lesson here as well. From now on, all pre-primed interior trim will get at least one coat of oil primer - even if that pre-primed trim is not bleeding.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Sorry I'm late to the game but I would probably have went with the Coverstain to solve that problem. To me that is what Coverstain is made for. 
You could even Coverstain in the morning and sand and 1st coat finish in the afternoon. That way the smell isn't as bad... stops the off-gassing I think.

But then again if you have a lot of trim to do, the slow dry is nicer to work with. Maybe a spot prime on the bleed thru areas then a full coat of slow dry on everything?

I've not yet been brave enough to skip the oil-base priming for interior trim. I like the Ben Moore Alkyd Interior Undercoater Primer thinned out just enough not to grab. It locks all that dusty sanded factory primer up and is the perfect base for any finish.

Those doors look real nice. I bet the trim looked even better over the oil-primer :thumbup:


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> I've not yet been brave enough to skip the oil-base priming for interior trim. I like the Ben Moore Alkyd Interior Undercoater Primer thinned out just enough not to grab. It locks all that dusty sanded factory primer up and is the perfect base for any finish.
> 
> Those doors look real nice. I bet the trim looked even better over the oil-primer :thumbup:


I also used the Benjamine Moore Interior Alkyd primer. It's my favorite for oil based products and I try to use it whenever vapors aren't a concern. As for the doors, thanks for the compliment! I do not spray any of my trim and brush everything. Doors are tricky but I've got a "routine" down where the brush marks are kept to a minimum and they're all "going the right way" such as if it were a wooden door and you were painting with the grain. I also hate "overlapping" marks so my "routine" eliminates them. Three coats of paint with a sanding of 220 grit paper in between each subsequent coat, a thorough vacuuming, a straining of the paint, and they come out smooth as glass.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Yea I brush everything too. No spray. I think good brush-work like you're talking about looks classy, especially on doors. A bit of old world craftsmanship that some really appreciate.


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