# Cigarette smoke



## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Paperhanger here asking for a professional courtesy.

Did my due diligence in the search mode but found nothing on walls coated with cigarette smoke here on PT.

I found plenty of info on how to clean but didn't see anything on what would happen if you ignored the instructions.
I assume stains would wick through and the smell wouldn't go away, but would it cause 'unfixable' damage, the kind that you couldn't make up for after the smoker left the residence. 
In other words, would a temporary shortcut (In a rental property where the smoker will stay and not quit smoking) cause permanent damage? 

Thanks in advance.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I wouldn't think that you could cause any permanent damage worse than has already been caused by the smoke. That's purely speculation, though, I haven't tried it. If you're skipping the cleaning, maybe just BIN the ruddy thing? I guess the only thing I'd be worried about would be sealing "in" the smoke smell and then having to remove the coatings later to get the smell out? Dunno if possible.


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## Jab1 (Aug 14, 2015)

2 coats of BIN will do the trick.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I assume by short cut you mean you don't want to prime, or even clean, and just want to paper over it as is? I would be somewhat concerned but if you are being pressured by the owner to keep costs down then explain the possible implications of skipping those important steps and have him/her sign off on it. Just cover your ass if you aren't going to cover the wall.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Seems like a question @driftweed might be able to weigh in on, also.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

BIN it. That's what it's for. Blocking bleed through stains and smells.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Interesting question. Painting wise, the stain will bleed through latex finish coats if not cleaned and/or primed with stain blocking primer. No permanent damage. 

Whether nicotine stains will bleed through water based paste and then through the paper, I don't know. Maybe Bill or Chrisn know.


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

RH said:


> I assume by short cut you mean you don't want to prime, or even clean, and just want to paper over it as is? I would be somewhat concerned but if you are being pressured by the owner to keep costs down then explain the possible implications of skipping those important steps and have him/her sign off on it. Just cover your ass if you aren't going to cover the wall.


 Oops, sorry I wasn't clear. The property management company wants to paint.


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## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

Shellac based primers work best for smoke damage.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Underdog said:


> Oops, sorry I wasn't clear. The property management company wants to paint.


Ah. No permanent damage, but it's gonna look pretty crappy if no stainblocker is used.


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> Ah. No permanent damage, but it's gonna look pretty crappy if no stainblocker is used.


 Thanks everybody, now I've got an idea of what I'm up against.

It's just that management is having a hard time with cost when it's going to be back in its previous condition in a very short amount of time.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Underdog said:


> Thanks everybody, now I've got an idea of what I'm up against.
> 
> It's just that management is having a hard time with cost when it's going to be back in its previous condition in a very short amount of time.


1 coat of BIN and top coat with something cheap, imo. The BIN will block the stain "good enough" until they can get rid of the tenant. The top coat will get ruined whether it's garbage or the best stuff out there, eventually. Can later be done right.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Why the heck are they in the rental business for then!


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Lambrecht said:


> Why the heck are they in the rental business for then!


 It's a big company politics/financial/decision making thing, I think.
I'm helping the bottom rung (my wife manages it).


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Underdog said:


> It's a big company politics/financial/decision making thing, I think.
> I'm helping the bottom rung (my wife manages it).


make that "bottom rung" look like TOP rung material 

B-I-N plus Fin


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

daArch said:


> make that "bottom rung" look like TOP rung material
> 
> B-I-N plus Fin


 Thanks.
I try. She only has one part-time maintenance worker to do quite a bit of work. But it's not one of their larger apartment complexes, and it's in a small town, and some of the apartments are assisted for rural development.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

Zinnser cover stain works well too. Just finished this one. Home owners still smoke inside haha


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

TrueColors said:


> Zinnser cover stain works well too. Just finished this one. Home owners still smoke inside haha


 Well see, I wasn't too far off asking. This brings up another issue. Mine was semi-gloss but that looks flat.


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## Paint medics (Aug 8, 2015)

Oil primer of any kind really will work to seal it. then a coat or two of finish product . I usually tint the primer to the same color of finish ,if its light enough . Or at least in the same family .


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Paint medics said:


> Oil primer of any kind really will work to seal it. then a coat or two of finish product . I usually tint the primer to the same color of finish ,if its light enough . Or at least in the same family .


 There ya go, thanks. I might get the maintenance guy to be able to do it in two coats at that. I'll find an area that has a critical light to experiment.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This is one of those time's when you just run in shootin' BIN like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

CApainter said:


> This is one of those time's when you just run in shootin' BIN like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.


Yes that's what I'm talking about right there. Tell em again they didn't hear you!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

And what's even better about BIN - besides the fact that it ALWAYS works - is that it's cheaper, goes on quicker, has higher coverage rate, odor dissipates faster, and can be top coated quicker.

win-win-win-win-win-win


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

daArch said:


> And what's even better about BIN - besides the fact that it ALWAYS works - is that it's cheaper, goes on quicker, has higher coverage rate, odor dissipates faster, and can be top coated quicker.
> 
> win-win-win-win-win-win


The production time is definitely super nice for applications like this.


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

And you can tint BIN?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Underdog said:


> And you can tint BIN?


Up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. Dark colors aren't possible obviously, but you can get close to most light ones.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Underdog said:


> And you can tint BIN?


that porch ceiling I'm working on (at my leisure) has tannin bleed that will be BIN'ed. I plan to tint it light blue. I'll let you know how it works. 

(I have plans to do that today, but I also plan to procrastinate as needed - maybe I'll procrastinate tomorrow).


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

daArch said:


> that porch ceiling I'm working on (at my leisure) has tannin bleed that will be BIN'ed. I plan to tint it light blue. I'll let you know how it works.
> 
> (I have plans to do that today, but I also plan to procrastinate as needed - maybe I'll procrastinate tomorrow).


Too funny, life is better when you don't take yourself too seriously.

I have used Cover Stain with success to stop nicotine, latex sealers have never worked, eventhough the can label guaranteed it, and I seem to be suckered in every time to try each new waterbourne type, because of hope for less smell. Thanks all for the tips on lower odor of BIN...I have used BIN for spot touch ups....just never on a whole room. There I go again, taking the bait in hopes of lower odor every time.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

BIN has a pretty strong odor to me~ not fond of it. But there's definitely applications where oil (or shellac) based products are the best, and stain covering like this is certainly one of them. Maybe latex paints and primers will get there one of these days, maybe not. I think at the end of the day it's just all about learning what's right for what application- I'm not a fan of the 1-solution-fits-all marketing and products.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

When the was coming up we always used the alkyd kills
The kinda work we did it wasn't uncommon. So whole houses we'd roll out. The stuff of s filthy to use but you put it on and you got a brand new canvas.
Ain't no two coats. Nothing is coming through a nice coat of that stuff
The bins. It smells like flowers compared to the kilz but it's so watery. Loose.
Never do see any pro kilz posting on the PT. and I got to assume that it is because it is so nasty to work with. The fumes.
The binz complaints about the fumes. To me? I honestly think the binz smells pleasant. Its alcohol. Got a clean smell IMO.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> And what's even better about BIN - besides the fact that it ALWAYS works - is that it's cheaper, goes on quicker, has higher coverage rate, odor dissipates faster, and can be top coated quicker.
> 
> win-win-win-win-win-win


cheaper than what?:blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> cheaper than what?:blink:


Well, it's cheap enough so *I'll * buy it. :thumbup: :whistling2:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> When the was coming up we always used the alkyd kills
> The kinda work we did it wasn't uncommon. So whole houses we'd roll out. The stuff of s filthy to use but you put it on and you got a brand new canvas.
> Ain't no two coats. Nothing is coming through a nice coat of that stuff
> The bins. It smells like flowers compared to the kilz but it's so watery. Loose.
> ...


Even before BIN, we used to paint smoked out interiors with one coat of alkyd flat finish from Hoffmans paint, or Sinclairs if my memory serves me. 

The thing apprehensive painters don't understand about pigmented shellac, is that the fumes dissipate more rapidly than alkyds or oils. Plus, the recoat time makes it a no brainer.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> Well, it's cheap enough so *I'll *buy it. :thumbup: :whistling2:


$42 @ the bear place, but you have to pay that for results







well, not exactly, if blowes had it for $50, I would still get it there


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> $42 @ the bear place, but you have to pay that for results
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blowes has it for $42.00, and last week they had a 10% off sale. I bought what I needed for the ceiling.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Underdog said:


> And you can tint BIN?


I BIN'ed that ceiling yesterday. Tinted the BIN with enough ancient universal colorant, added a little denatured alcohol, and applied with a weenie roller. Being old warped bead board, the weenie was more efficient than a 9". 

When you tint BIN, it dries a LOT darker. The color I achieved was between robins egg blue and azure -sorta 30 degrees up from the horizon midday on a clear day.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Wear throwaway clothes when painting the cigarette infested rental. Nothing like coming home smelling like a tobacco factory.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Interesting question. Painting wise, the stain will bleed through latex finish coats if not cleaned and/or primed with stain blocking primer. No permanent damage.
> 
> Whether nicotine stains will bleed through water based paste and then through the paper, I don't know. Maybe Bill or Chrisn know.


Yes, water and tobacco stains will bleed through "thin" wallpapers (more noticeable with light background papers). Thick vinyl - no.


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## GoTime (Jul 2, 2013)

This. Re-coat time is fast also. 

I used the new SW synthetic shellac last winter, worked great. And it's a lot cheaper than the regular stuff.



Mike2coat said:


> Shellac based primers work best for smoke damage.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I must admit, I'm curious about "synthetic shellac." I haven't done much looking into it since I had a couple of local painters tell me they didn't like it. Does anyone know if it's actually the same chemical makeup as real shellac, or whether it's just a formula that tries to emulate it? If it's just artificially created (but real shellac compound) then theoretically it should work the exact same as 'real' shellac minus a bit of bug guts. There's no reason why this shouldn't be able to dominate the market since 'real' shellac is so labor intensive to harvest.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> cheaper than what?:blink:


Maybe he hasn't bought any since the price damn near doubled.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I must admit, I'm curious about "synthetic shellac." I haven't done much looking into it since I had a couple of local painters tell me they didn't like it. Does anyone know if it's actually the same chemical makeup as real shellac, or whether it's just a formula that tries to emulate it? If it's just artificially created (but real shellac compound) then theoretically it should work the exact same as 'real' shellac minus a bit of bug guts. There's no reason why this shouldn't be able to dominate the market since 'real' shellac is so labor intensive to harvest.


It has no shellac or shellac by products in it. It's just another water based "sealer" that is markedly less effective then BIN. Although it is slightly better then most waterbased sealers. I've done a coffee stain test with it against several other brands and it was probably the second best waterbased product. Believe it or not a coat of Marquee was better at sealing coffee stains then it was. But the weird thing was, when you used a second coat of synthetic BIN, there was less stain bleed then there was with two coats of Marquee. When you put a topcoat on the synth BIN and a third coat of Marquee they were pretty much equal, in that there was still a slight bleed through showing.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

FYI I checked online a couple of years ago when thhe price went through the roof on shellac based products to find out what happened and it turned out that the beetles the stuff was made from had a similar problem as the honey bees had. Suddenly 7/8th's of the beetles had died and no one was quite sure why. At the time it was believed it could take 10-15 years for them to recover.
Most of the shellac produced is being sold to the electronics industry, and the coatings industry is only getting about 1/4 of the product they used to be able to get.


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## judgeservices (Feb 21, 2014)

Could one or two coats of BIN be left as a flat finish coat? 
These rooms have cigarette smoke damage. I'm wondering if I BIN the room (walls and ceilings) could I get away with not putting a flat white finish on the ceiling?


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

judgeservices said:


> Could one or two coats of BIN be left as a flat finish coat? These rooms have cigarette smoke damage. I'm wondering if I BIN the room (walls and ceilings) could I get away with not putting a flat white finish on the ceiling?


Funny you mention that we just did a house where the couple were both smokers and we got a coat of bin on the walls and ceiling and they were so amazed that the ceiling did not bled through orange right away that we cut it in a second time and left it. Although the bin is probably closer to a satin finish


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## judgeservices (Feb 21, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Funny you mention that we just did a house where the couple were both smokers and we got a coat of bin on the walls and ceiling and they were so amazed that the ceiling did not bled through orange right away that we cut it in a second time and left it. Although the bin is probably closer to a satin finish


Ok great. Does anyone know what the cons are to leaving it as a finish? Will it yellow over time?


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## judgeservices (Feb 21, 2014)

Also, does everything have to be thoroughly cleaned prior to using BIN, or will it stick?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

judgeservices said:


> Also, does everything have to be thoroughly cleaned prior to using BIN, or will it stick?


From the TDS:

"Surfaces should be clean, dry, sound and free of dust, dirt,excessive chalky material, grime, grease, oil, wax, mildew,
wallpaper adhesive or any contamination that may interfere
with adhesion."


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## judgeservices (Feb 21, 2014)

Ok but to what extent? Scrubbing all walls and ceilings to remove all nicotine?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

judgeservices said:


> Ok but to what extent? Scrubbing all walls and ceilings to remove all nicotine?


That's what I've done in the past. At least get as much of it off as you can. I did a job a few years ago where a hoarder hadn't left his house once in several years. All he did was drink, smoke, eat and never clean. He kicked the bucket. When we were scrubbing the walls down the water running off them was DARK brown. No way was I gonna put any product on top of that.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cleaning before priming*

I am just finishing priming a small house that had smokers for years. They got old and now their children are getting the house ready for sale. The walls and ceilings had been cleaned a few years ago, but I decided to clean them anyway before priming. 

I used a combination of Vission cleaner/degreaser and Smoke & More (on all the painted surfaces as well as the wood floors and bath and kitchen cabinets), both made by OmniPro. The Smoke & More has a chemical called Hydrocide that they claim neutralizes cigarette odors. Seems to be working according to those who have strolled on through to check the progress. I can see the cigarette residue dripping down the walls after spraying the solution, so I know it is cleaning, even on the wallpaper they did not want removed. I am using a pump up sprayer that foams the solution so that it stays on the surface longer (more dwell time for chemical action I presume), then I scrub it with a brush similar to a wiondow washing brush, then vacuum it off with a squeegee designed for floors, rinse with water and vac off again. Wallpapered areas are done with hand held sprayer and sponges.

We are priming 2 coats Kilz Max which claims to block, among other things, cigarette smoke odors. There has been bleed through on only 2 doors and that is because I don't think they were cleaned properly (my partner did the cleaning on those doors, not me!). The owners do not want to pay for painting, just priming. Even thought the Kilz Max has a stinky odor, it is nowhere near as bad as BIN or any oil or alkyd based primer, all of which I try to stay away from so the brain cells I have left thank me.

Obviously, this is not a cost effective way to de-cigarette-smoke-a-tize a rental unit, but hopefully it is for selling the place.

All the carpeting is being removed and the floors will be washed with the chemical combo above. We will see/smell how it ends up. In the meantime, have a good laugh if you are not partial to washing prior to priming. 

One thing I will say, thoroughly cleaning and rinsing the painted surfaces takes longer to do than the painting itself!

futtyos


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

futtyos said:


> I am just finishing priming a small house that had smokers for years. They got old and now their children are getting the house ready for sale. The walls and ceilings had been cleaned a few years ago, but I decided to clean them anyway before priming.
> 
> I used a combination of Vission cleaner/degreaser and Smoke & More (on all the painted surfaces as well as the wood floors and bath and kitchen cabinets), both made by OmniPro. The Smoke & More has a chemical called Hydrocide that they claim neutralizes cigarette odors. Seems to be working according to those who have strolled on through to check the progress. I can see the cigarette residue dripping down the walls after spraying the solution, so I know it is cleaning, even on the wallpaper they did not want removed. I am using a pump up sprayer that foams the solution so that it stays on the surface longer (more dwell time for chemical action I presume), then I scrub it with a brush similar to a wiondow washing brush, then vacuum it off with a squeegee designed for floors, rinse with water and vac off again. Wallpapered areas are done with hand held sprayer and sponges.
> 
> ...


where did you hear the term "dwell time"


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

chrisn said:


> where did you hear the term "dwell time"


From my uncle Zeke.

futtyos


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I'll be doing a hard core nicotine apartment tomorrow, care for pics and documentation?


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I don't clean any of it off the walls. Last 5 really bad nicotine jobs I've done I have used zinsser coverstain. It covered the orange nicotine so well I was amazed. No bleed threw at all and I have been back at a few of them a year later and they looked great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cigarette odor*



TrueColors said:


> I don't clean any of it off the walls. Last 5 really bad nicotine jobs I've done I have used zinsser coverstain. It covered the orange nicotine so well I was amazed. No bleed threw at all and I have been back at a few of them a year later and they looked great.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How do they smell?

futtyos


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

TrueColors said:


> I don't clean any of it off the walls. Last 5 really bad nicotine jobs I've done I have used zinsser coverstain. It covered the orange nicotine so well I was amazed. No bleed threw at all and I have been back at a few of them a year later and they looked great.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly. Let the product do its job....i used to use that or I used a boat load of kilz also on fire restoration crap. Works exactly like it's supposed to. Seals the stains and the odors. No cleaning that crap off, just hit it and keep paintin'.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

futtyos said:


> How do they smell?
> 
> 
> 
> futtyos




Honestly don't care, Most of them are residential repaints. Unless the homeowner buys all new furniture, flooring, clothes, beds and have their furnace filter changed and hvac system scrubbed the smell will always be there.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

lilpaintchic said:


> Exactly. Let the product do its job....i used to use that or I used a boat load of kilz also on fire restoration crap. Works exactly like it's supposed to. Seals the stains and the odors. No cleaning that crap off, just hit it and keep paintin'.




Agreed! However coverstain is way better then kilz. I get bleedthru with kilz. One coat coverstain no problem.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

TrueColors said:


> Agreed! However coverstain is way better then kilz. I get bleedthru with kilz. One coat coverstain no problem.


I agree. We were contracted through state farm and forced to use only hd materials (which meant kilz and boat loads of behr at the time...) didn't have much by way of choices...I never had issues with it (primer) though, the paint though...OMG nightmare. I shoulda opened an L&I claim for mental and emotional trauma.lololl


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

Smoker units are one of my specialties. The protocol is:

if it's really really really bad wash all paintable surfaces with Kurd cutter / TSP substitute / degreaser / soapy water, or a cleaner of your choosing. Scrub off the bulk of the nicotine residue with rags and get ready to apply primer. 

Prime all paintable surfaces with cover stain after all your usual prep work is complete. We used to use shellac but have learned cover stain beats shellac in covering and penetrating nicotine stains. Spray it or brush/roll it. One cost is usually enough. We rarely have to do two costs. 

Then apply your paint. If the carpet and flooring has been removed before painting we will usually roll cover stain (or kilz, shellac, etc...) onto the bare subfloor to seal odors as a courtesy.


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

driftweed said:


> I'll be doing a hard core nicotine apartment tomorrow, care for pics and documentation?


 let's see it!


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Ok, I actually pushed it off until tomorrow so I'll live post progress shots.


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## judgeservices (Feb 21, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> I agree. We were contracted through state farm and forced to use only hd materials (which meant kilz and boat loads of behr at the time...) didn't have much by way of choices...I never had issues with it (primer) though, the paint though...OMG nightmare. I shoulda opened an L&I claim for mental and emotional trauma.lololl


Yeah I decided to just go with cover stain. It's blocking the stains perfectly well. And it is half the cost as BIN. Not to mention you can use mineral spirits or paint thinner to clean and don't have to use denatured alcohol


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## VisionFinishes (Apr 30, 2016)

Shellac is the way to go for 100% seal and fast cure. I know this is a bit older, but that's all I use for these situations.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Finally got around to my nicotine unit...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

driftweed said:


> Finally got around to my nicotine unit...


I'm surprised there isn't an outline of some fat a55 siting in his chair on the wall somewhere.

Did they have to use a crowbar to get that stuff off the wall?


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

There sure was outlines of everything else, that's for sure!


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Gee....why so much paint????


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

What kind of ceiling is that? It looks super porous, like nicotine would drip out of it....


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Popcorn ceiling.

700 sf (floor) 2 bedroom apartment. 1 coat shellac, waited 45 minutes, 1 crazy thick coat Eggshell Property Solutions (sprayed and backrolled)...

Check plz

Paint usage: 8 gallons shellac, 17 gallons property solutions


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

driftweed said:


> Popcorn ceiling.
> 
> 700 sf (floor) 2 bedroom apartment. 1 coat shellac, waited 45 minutes, 1 crazy thick coat Eggshell Property Solutions (sprayed and backrolled)...
> 
> ...


I figured you would have sprayed 2 coats of Property Solutions (one coat one direction, the other coat from another direction, like 90 degrees from the first), and not backrolled at all to save from pulling any popcorn down.

What did you use, an inch and a quarter nap?


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

Thought I recognized you from the old days...

http://s108.photobucket.com/user/doubletakespresents/media/Villain_zpsowlyzbhj.jpg.html


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Believe it or not, 3/4 inch. It helps that it had already been painted. 

That property solutions junk...well, it would have been 1 normal coat with promar 200. Solutions has zero hiding characteristics.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I went back today to check the finished product. Let's face it, ALL paint jobs look great when wet.

I used a VERY low end topcoat of paint, applied extremely generously to achieve the desired result. Now, I know promar 200 isn't much of an upgrade from property solutions, but in apartments that is the dominant paint (thusly my preferred brand).

The dry result DID make the odor and stains go away, however at a cost. There was cracking all over the place. Not alligator cracks, but cracks like on a sidewalk. Whoever will be following this could very well be in for a nightmare scenario if they do not know what to do, as I fully expect there to be problems. 

Had I done this exact thing with promar 200, the results would have much different and much better.

Just because you shellac nicotine, do not cheap out on your topcoat guys.


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

driftweed said:


> I went back today to check the finished product. Let's face it, ALL paint jobs look great when wet. I used a VERY low end topcoat of paint, applied extremely generously to achieve the desired result. Now, I know promar 200 isn't much of an upgrade from property solutions, but in apartments that is the dominant paint (thusly my preferred brand). The dry result DID make the odor and stains go away, however at a cost. There was cracking all over the place. Not alligator cracks, but cracks like on a sidewalk. Whoever will be following this could very well be in for a nightmare scenario if they do not know what to do, as I fully expect there to be problems. Had I done this exact thing with promar 200, the results would have much different and much better. Just because you shellac nicotine, do not cheap out on your topcoat guys.


Driftweed: two things here. Wait longer for the primer to dry. Shellac dries so fast that it sometimes causes the previous finish to crackle. It's even worse when the wet topcoat crackles over it. 

Second: property solutions has no coverage. In your bad units use something better. Even Promar is a step up from PS. PS is for straight forward apartment repaints.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

WestCoast99 said:


> Driftweed: two things here. Wait longer for the primer to dry. Shellac dries so fast that it sometimes causes the previous finish to crackle. It's even worse when the wet topcoat crackles over it.
> 
> Second: property solutions has no coverage. In your bad units use something better. Even Promar is a step up from PS. PS is for straight forward apartment repaints.


Did he not just say all that in post 75??


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Time is the major issue In apartment oainting. Regardless of the condition of the walls, you still only get 1 day to paint it. Usually am overnight dry is not am option.

If the customer won't buy decent paint, your hands are tied. I had 2 chiices:

1: do what I did in 2 coats 
2: stay longer and do a third normal coat

This customer has insisted on lesser nicotine units of 2 coats of property solutions and no primer before. This particular unit, was a ripe opportunity for me to show both this forum (and the customer) the effects of trying to do it on the cheap.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

driftweed said:


> Time is the major issue In apartment oainting. Regardless of the condition of the walls, you still only get 1 day to paint it. Usually am overnight dry is not am option.
> 
> If the customer won't buy decent paint, your hands are tied. I had 2 chiices:
> 
> ...


IMO, you should try going with high grade paint. Twice the price, use half as much, and cover better. Also less chance of cracking. Which IMO was caused by putting the Property Solutions on too thick. Also, by using less paint you'll get the work done quicker.

IMHO, using mid-high grade paint would pay for itself. Maybe even net you a little return. 17 gallons in a two bedroom is a LOT of paint.

Learned that trick from The Legend. We were doing an apartment exterior that was specced for two coats of cheap crap. Bought Duration and did it in one. Covered better than two coats of the cheap stuff. Sprayed it. We're talking red over yellow, yellow over blue etc etc.

We've done several/tens of thousands of apartments. I always chuckle at the guy dragging in the Sherscrub. Little does he know it takes him twice as long to cut/roll (or do anything) cause he's only getting 175 sqft per gallon and his brush is drooling down into his armpit.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cleaned and Kilz Maxed*



futtyos said:


> I am just finishing priming a small house that had smokers for years. They got old and now their children are getting the house ready for sale. The walls and ceilings had been cleaned a few years ago, but I decided to clean them anyway before priming.
> 
> I used a combination of Vission cleaner/degreaser and Smoke & More (on all the painted surfaces as well as the wood floors and bath and kitchen cabinets), both made by OmniPro. The Smoke & More has a chemical called Hydrocide that they claim neutralizes cigarette odors. Seems to be working according to those who have strolled on through to check the progress. I can see the cigarette residue dripping down the walls after spraying the solution, so I know it is cleaning, even on the wallpaper they did not want removed. I am using a pump up sprayer that foams the solution so that it stays on the surface longer (more dwell time for chemical action I presume), then I scrub it with a brush similar to a wiondow washing brush, then vacuum it off with a squeegee designed for floors, rinse with water and vac off again. Wallpapered areas are done with hand held sprayer and sponges.
> 
> ...


Finished the above house. We put 2 coats of the Kilz Max on all ceilings, walls, doors and trim. Owners did not want to pay for paint, just to make it look clean and not smell of cigarette smoke. This we accomplished even though the duct work looks like shag carpeting inside. Everyone who goes in the house says they cannot smell any cigarette smoke.

Not saying its the cheapest or most effective way of dealing with getting rid of cigarette smoke, but we probably got rid of the least brain cells doing it this way. The cleaning products I used (described above) really seamed to work well. I know a local carpet cleaner who says he has no problem getting the cigarette smell out of carpeting by adding Hydrocide to his shampoo. 

futtyos


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Bryce,

You are so right on using quality paint. All my other clients just say "tell us what to order!" Because they already know there going to spending some $$ so what's a few hundred more in paint.

But every know and then you gotta teach a client why you can't scrimp on these type of jobs. Prove them wrong so to speak. These maintenance guys seem to know everything haha


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