# Analine Dye Advice Please



## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Anyone have a brand they prefer? I'm probably going to be removing a clear coat from some solid maple cabinetry and thinking of dying it blue. 

Tips? Warnings?


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

fauxlynn said:


> Anyone have a brand they prefer? I'm probably going to be removing a clear coat from some solid maple cabinetry and thinking of dying it blue.
> 
> Tips? Warnings?


I had great success removing old paint using "Contractors Solvent" by De-Solv-it.
In one project working in a heritage house I needed to remove some paint from a stair post, sanding was not really good option because of dust even using vacuum cleaner assisted sander and using regular paint remover was not a good option due to the smell so I decided to give "Contractors Solvent" a try. 
Applied with a cloth (reapplied 3 or 4 times) and after 30 minutes I was able to scrape off 6 or 7 layers of old paint to the original wood.
Being a heritage house some of that paint was oil of course other layers were latex. 
I was very impressed with that product.
Also great to clean your hands. 

On another project metal door was painted with latex (with no primer underneath). 
In some places paint was stuck quite good in others (especially around the door handle) was peeling more easily.
I applied "Contractors Solvent" 4 or 5 times with a cloth and after 45 minutes scraped off the old pain with ease.


From their website:
Fast, Tough, Yet Gentle Pro Strength Remover
Specifically developed for the Contractor Trade. 
Designed for the contractor, this industrial degreaser workhorse is exceptional at cleaning concrete, removing silicone, caulk, putty nails, floor adhesive, water seal, wet paint (won’t harm dry paint), roofing tar and more from virtually any surface! 
A heavy duty degreaser and concrete cleaner; it’s even safe on vehicles, laundry, skin and hair! No harmful vapors, benzene or chlorinated solvents.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Hey there new to PT guy! So, I’m already certain how I will remove the clear coat. This snob is going to use her fancy Festool. I was really looking for tips, etc on aniline dyes. 

Good luck here and thanks for your otherwise helpful info.


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

fauxlynn said:


> Hey there new to PT guy! So, I’m already certain how I will remove the clear coat. This snob is going to use her fancy Festool. I was really looking for tips, etc on *aniline dyes*.
> 
> Good luck here and thanks for your otherwise helpful info.


Wow, Thanks for clarifying, because reading title of your thread I got worried...lol :smile:
"*Analine Dye*"


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh crap. Guess I spelled something incorrectly again. I’ve been on Reddit all day where everyone prefaces their thoughts with ANAL (am not a lawyer). 
Sorry about that.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

The only issue using water based dyes is that they have no binder so you have to be careful top coating with water based finishes and they dry really fast so I never had luck getting an even finish. That's probably one area that oil based stains are superior. I stick with acetate based dyes if using them at all or general finishes water based dyes stain.

Wood whisperer had a great video 
https://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/you-and-dye/


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for the link ccmn. I’ll probably just end up thinning some thalo blue tube oil into some thinner.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Sounds like a cool project!

My preference for aniline dyes is W.D. Lockwood. I use them often on species prone to blotching such as maple and birch, especially when doing flooring. They provide unrivaled uniformity and color saturation w/out blotching or obscuring the figure. I believe W.D. Lockwood has a water soluble metal complex dye in a blue. I haven’t tried the blues but have used some of their other metal complex dyes with terrific results. One thing to make note of is color fastness. If exposed to moderate to extreme UV light, aniline dyes will fade much quicker than pigmented stains, metal complex dyes having better color fastness than straight up anilines. When dyeing maple I do a wet on wet application, getting a couple of square feet ahead of myself then going back and quickly rewetting it, keeping two open wet edges, the first opens the grain, the second penetrates. Anilines and metal complex dyes are unforgiving if there is the slightest residual finish in the pores. The dye won’t penetrate and then you’ve got a bit of a problem. When dyeing, if you run into that situation, keep a piece of sandpaper handy and quickly work the wet dye into the wood. Also make note that you will have to alternate solvents when clear finishing. If using a water dye you will need to use a solvent based sealer, if using an alcohol dye avoid using an alcohol soluble sealer such as shellac. 

You also might want to look into NGR dyes.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I’m reading about those right now. It’s a kitchen cabinet job, not until summer. I need to nail down exactly the colorant to use.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

duplicate


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Sounds like a cool project!
> 
> My preference for aniline dyes is W.D. Lockwood. I use them often on species prone to blotching such as maple and birch, especially when doing flooring. They provide unrivaled uniformity and color saturation w/out blotching or obscuring the figure. I believe W.D. Lockwood has a water soluble metal complex dye in a blue. I haven’t tried the blues but have used some of their other metal complex dyes with terrific results. One thing to make note of is color fastness. If exposed to moderate to extreme UV light, aniline dyes will fade much quicker than pigmented stains, metal complex dyes having better color fastness than straight up anilines. When dyeing maple I do a wet on wet application, getting a couple of square feet ahead of myself then going back and quickly rewetting it, keeping two open wet edges, the first opens the grain, the second penetrates. Anilines and metal complex dyes are unforgiving if there is the slightest residual finish in the pores. The dye won’t penetrate and then you’ve got a bit of a problem. When dyeing, if you run into that situation, keep a piece of sandpaper handy and quickly work the wet dye into the wood. Also make note that you will have to alternate solvents when clear finishing. If using a water dye you will need to use a solvent based sealer, if using an alcohol dye avoid using an alcohol soluble sealer such as shellac.
> 
> You also might want to look into NGR dyes.


Great very useful info.


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## AlWood (May 29, 2019)

I've been doing quite a lot of testing with different color dyes for some upcoming projects. 
Some research I've read mentions caution for the blushing with maple and stains, using a very light coat of shellac to prevent it etc, just a minor warning.

I'm not sure on long-term results, but I've gotten great color from Most of the dyes I've tested, to be honest. To get really solid color a second coat actually helped.
Offhand I can recall:
Keda Dye, Transtint, and plain old Rit. I have several more but will need to check when I get back to the shop.

Like anything though, get some scraps and test test test. THis is a pretty easy one at least, wipe, wipe off, wait a few, no gun to clean!


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks for your insight


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## AlWood (May 29, 2019)

*Dye's tested*

FolkArt Ultra Dye (purple, infra red, agent orange, comes in quite a few colors)
This was good for a rich, deep color. You can still see grain, but did well
at making the test (birch) solid purple orange or red. I'd assume the blue 
would as well
Keda Dye (liquid red/crimson)
This also did a solid color well. Not a tint but a fullon dye. Still some figure
but very red.
K.E. Moser's (aniline gray)
Likely just an issue with the gray, but it just did a "graying" not a full gray
dye. Very useful for some things but not if you just want a gray dye. Was
not very noticable with water nor alcohol. I DO want to try again when I 
have time though, not convinced there isn't a better way to use. Soak?
Rit (both the "synthetic" and normal clothes variety) 
I had this around so just tried. Did a rather good job of attaining solid
color.

like I said, most worked pretty well. My judgement is still out on the Moser's, didn't spend much effort on working out why it didn't do much. Same with the alumilite black/gray, just didn't seem to go in much.

Humorously ALL of them worked much deeper than the minwax "true black", it barely left a shadow.

of course for black, nothing really beat the "rusty vinegar water" ie old nails in vinegar for a couple days, wipe it on the wood. Except maybe wiping tea on first (tannins), or following with straight-up india ink.

Hope this helps a little.

Of course, Try it yourself and make sure it's what you want


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

AlWood said:


> K.E. Moser's (aniline gray)
> Likely just an issue with the gray, but it just did a "graying" not a full gray
> dye. Very useful for some things but not if you just want a gray dye. Was
> not very noticable with water nor alcohol. I DO want to try again when I
> have time though, not convinced there isn't a better way to use. Soak?


I’m pretty certain that the J.E. Moser’s aniline dyes are W.D.Lockwood repackaged/rebranded just as several other house brands are. If you’re at a dead end with the grays, a way to achieve a really nice weathered/driftwood gray effect is to bleach the wood first (hydrogen peroxide in basic solution) and then apply a very dilute application of the J.E. Moser’s or W.D. Lockwood silver gray water dye. It looks really nice on rustic grade white oak. Also try bleaching followed by Woca Grey Lye, diluting the grey lye a bit with vinegar, knocking back the pH a bit. That too provides an authentic looking/beautiful weathered gray look. The grays are my biggest sellers.


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## AlWood (May 29, 2019)

Alchemy Redux said:


> I’m pretty certain that the J.E. Moser’s aniline dyes are W.D.Lockwood repackaged/rebranded just as several other house brands are. If you’re at a dead end with the grays, a way to achieve a really nice weathered/driftwood gray effect is to bleach the wood first (hydrogen peroxide in basic solution) and then apply a very dilute application of the J.E. Moser’s or W.D. Lockwood silver gray water dye. It looks really nice on rustic grade white oak. Also try bleaching followed by Woca Grey Lye, diluting the grey lye a bit with vinegar, knocking back the pH a bit. That too provides an authentic looking/beautiful weathered gray look. The grays are my biggest sellers.


Oh, the Moser's would probably work Fine for weathered/driftwood gray. Issue is I'm not looking for that whatsoever lol

I'm trying to find dyes not stains, trying to change to color of the wood, while still leaving the figure. Paint completely covers, where a dye contains both the color and the interest of figure in the wood.

Some customers like the natural of the figure, but don't want the rustic of bare wood grain. Or something.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

AlWood said:


> Oh, the Moser's would probably work Fine for weathered/driftwood gray. Issue is I'm not looking for that whatsoever lol
> 
> I'm trying to find dyes not stains, trying to change to color of the wood, while still leaving the figure. Paint completely covers, where a dye contains both the color and the interest of figure in the wood.
> 
> Some customers like the natural of the figure, but don't want the rustic of bare wood grain. Or something.


I strictly utilize chemical and molecular dying principles without the use of pigments as well. I’ve also had good success in achieving the darker grays without the use of pigments, the Moser’s only providing a subtle hint of gray as you mentioned.


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## AlWood (May 29, 2019)

Mind sharing what you use for darker grays @Alchemy_Redux?
The usual rusty vinegar water at lower concentration?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

AlWood said:


> Mind sharing what you use for darker grays @Alchemy_Redux?
> The usual rusty vinegar water at lower concentration?


Maybe you could post a pic of what you’re trying to achieve..grays can be very subjective. That way I could narrow it down and share a couple of procedures and photographs, possibly eliminating much of the time consuming experimentation. 

As far as the rusty nails/vinegar goes..you might want to try creating your iron acetate solution with fluffed out 0000 steel wool pads rather than rusty nails. I give the steel wool a quick rinse and shake with lacquer thinner to remove the oil, then submerse the steel wool in 5% distilled white vinegar. I find that 4 pads per qt of vinegar will yield a nice strength for a mid tone gray in 1-2 hrs for tannin rich species such as white oak...or when pretreating species with low tannin levels with tannic acid. 

The solution preparation is much quicker utilizing steel wool due to the surface area of the wool, and the formulations are more repeatable/predictable if you need to make another batch. Don’t let the wool rise to the surface, it needs to be submersed. After removing the steel wool I filter the liquid through coffee filters, removing any fine particulate steel to stop the reaction. 

The problem with the iron acetate is retaining the gray when clear coating. You tend start pulling the natural undertones of the wood out, the color often going more brown. A solvent borne lacquer sealer is usually best for color retention or just clear paste wax.

Copperas aka Iron II Sulfate lends a similar look, producing a greener-gray rather than the blue-grays associated with the rusty nail/vinegar solution. I purchase the copperas powders from Earth Guild as well as the tannic acid.

I’ve also gotten good results bleaching first, getting the wood as white as possible, and utilizing acid dyes which are utilized for dyeing protein based material and not cellulose wood fibers. It will however color the wood, and the color can then be locked down with a solvent borne sealer. 

Reactive black 31 with bleached wood works well. Reactive black 31 in combination with titanium dioxide is a common treatment for European parquet flooring in order to achieve the grays, although titanium dioxide is a pigment.


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## AlWood (May 29, 2019)

@alchemy_redux Excellent, thanks. That provides plenty of leads.

Thus far I've been working on getting very dark with IA and tea... nailed that. Getting thorough saturation is easier than reduced levels, looking forward to playing with that now.

I have a jar with my rusty nails (de-oiled already) with the vinegar in it that just gets refreshed. That should work fine just filtered and diluted far as I can figure, no need to redo with steel wool. That's all iron acetate.

Now Iron II acetate, I think I'll pick up and pray around with that also. I definitely like the "chemical reaction" over washed with color".

There's also copper sulfate or oxide for green or blue-green that sound interesting. oxide=vinegar, peroxide and vinegar, sulfate probably best purchased.

Yes, I'm learning!

Reactive black31/titanium dioxide, interesting tool

Thanks for sharing. Not sure I'll use much of this for production work, but for small work or personal use I'm interested.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

AlWood said:


> @alchemy_redux Excellent, thanks. That provides plenty of leads.
> 
> Thus far I've been working on getting very dark with IA and tea... nailed that. Getting thorough saturation is easier than reduced levels, looking forward to playing with that now.
> 
> ...


You might consider looking into Rubio Monocoat Fumed...it’s a very popular effect. I think it’s simply sodium nitrite which you can pick up for only pennies on the dollar.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Lots of great information, thanks to all. Unfortunately the homeowner is selling the house, so no beautiful blue maple cabinets.


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