# OIL vs LATEX and historic windows



## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

OK, Guys. I am a Historic window and door restoration contractor in the MD, VA southern PA area. I restore old historic wood windows,( with the ropes and weights). These old windows need special care when painting. Specially with regards to the kind of paint used. These old windows must be painted with Oil based paints. There is no way around it. You cannot use Latex paint and expect these windows to operate properly and smoothly. They were designed in an era before latex. Latex paint does not let the sashes move smoothly, specially when the sun hits it. Oil paint develops a hard chalky surface to it witch allows the windows to operate very smoothly and not stick shut. I don't care how advanced the latex paint is it will not work as well as oil on these old windows.
Painters are my nemesis. I restore the windows to perfect working order and the painters come in and ignore the request for oil paint and paint my windows shut. Now they will not operate smoothly and they stick. And the customer wants to know why they don't operate properly. Every painting contractor I have had experience with is sloppy with how they paint windows and balks at using oil paint. They try to sneak latex in ignore basic principles for painting windows. They caulk all my Sash stop moldings up after I go through the trouble to recreate original moldings with proper shadow lines and reveals. They come in with a crew that seems to have no clue as to our requests and proceed to screw up my windows. 
I had to start putting it in all my quotes that We will not warranty any window in any way that has been painted with latex paint. I have had a couple jobs since, that have had to pay me to take the windows apart again so they can remove all the latex in all the sash contact areas. 
WHY is it so damn hard to find a painter that will do these windows properly and use oil like is needed? If anyone knows of someone in my area that knows how to do windows properly and will do as I require please let me know.
Albert / Fairviewglass.com


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

you guys know who you are !!


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I always use oil on old windows. If the windows were restored like you do I always ask about caulking as well. If we lived closer we would offer our services but we are out of MA.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

albert kreis said:


> OK, Guys. I am a Historic window and door restoration contractor in the MD, VA southern PA area. I restore old historic wood windows,( with the ropes and weights). These old windows need special care when painting. Specially with regards to the kind of paint used. These old windows must be painted with Oil based paints. There is no way around it. You cannot use Latex paint and expect these windows to operate properly and smoothly. They were designed in an era before latex. Latex paint does not let the sashes move smoothly, specially when the sun hits it. Oil paint develops a hard chalky surface to it witch allows the windows to operate very smoothly and not stick shut. I don't care how advanced the latex paint is it will not work as well as oil on these old windows.
> Painters are my nemesis. I restore the windows to perfect working order and the painters come in and ignore the request for oil paint and paint my windows shut. Now they will not operate smoothly and they stick. And the customer wants to know why they don't operate properly. Every painting contractor I have had experience with is sloppy with how they paint windows and balks at using oil paint. They try to sneak latex in ignore basic principles for painting windows. They caulk all my Sash stop moldings up after I go through the trouble to recreate original moldings with proper shadow lines and reveals. They come in with a crew that seems to have no clue as to our requests and proceed to screw up my windows.
> I had to start putting it in all my quotes that We will not warranty any window in any way that has been painted with latex paint. I have had a couple jobs since, that have had to pay me to take the windows apart again so they can remove all the latex in all the sash contact areas.
> WHY is it so damn hard to find a painter that will do these windows properly and use oil like is needed? If anyone knows of someone in my area that knows how to do windows properly and will do as I require please let me know.
> Albert / Fairviewglass.com


Why do you not paint them yourself?


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

I don't paint them myself because I like to keep to what I know and do best. I am very particular about my work. Everything my name is on I have to put my hand on to make sure it is right. I am busy enough with my restoration work and don't have time to go out for more trips to the house to paint them. I cant do that part as efficiently as I would need to make what I need to off of it. I have considered it many times though.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Oil is hard to find. And not as good for exteriors. What you want is paints with good blocking resistance. Ppg breakthrough would work well for that. Not ok for siding but fine for windows and doors. I suppose you can find some oils with BM and other companies. 
I coach my customers to open and close their windows several times a day for a while after we paint them. That usually is all it takes. We typically use BM aura or regal for exterior trim.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

When you hire a painter do you include using oil in your contracts?


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Damon T. It doesn't matter how many times you open and close them or how well the paint has cured. Latex of any kind will NOT work. Even after 10 or more years, if you put two surfaces together that were painted with latex for any significant time, specially in the sun, they will stick to each other. If You get sun on a window painted with ANY kind of latex, the window will stick. there is no way around it.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

I do not hire the painters. The homeowner or the general contractor does. I prime everything I do with oil primer and leave it at that. Customers are always asking if I know any painters for the job. I have not found anyone yet that I would recomend locally


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

albert kreis said:


> I don't paint them myself because I like to keep to what I know and doo best. I am very particular about my work. Everything my name is on I have to put my hand on to make sure it is right. I am busy enough with my restoration work and don't have time to go out for more trips to the house to paint them. I cant do that part as efficiently as I would need to make what I need to off of it. I have considered it many times though.


I think I've zeroed in on your problem.
If you'll do a thread search for "Pre-Madonna", I think you'll find your answer.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Window repair guys are my nemesis. 

They always attempt to prep the window (caulk and putty) rather than let a professional do it. Every window repair guy I have ever met caulks like a plumber. They use crappy caulk and fill holes with it too. Drives me crazy! They use crappy lumber as well. Some warped piece of home depot crap!

I hate window repair guys! I would pay triple to have a window specially made to match the existing historical window before I would let some half-wit wanna-be carpenter window hack fix them.

Drives me crazy!


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Slinger58. I do quality work and will not accept less that properly done. I am busy and have built a name and reputation on doing quality work. That's why my customers call me. Call it what you will but I like having the best reputation at what I do.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Epretot. I hear you. That's why I have a good reputation. I don't do that ****. I use quality products and do it properly. Like you say, every wannabe carpenter and contractor thinks they can do windows. When in reality they don't know **** about these historic windows. I am constantly fixing what some hack tried to fix before me.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Here is a window I did in oil. You're telling me you can find a single painter to paint you windows in oil?

I will personally fly there and paint them for the right price.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

albert kreis said:


> Damon T. It doesn't matter how many times you open and close them or how well the paint has cured. Latex of any kind will NOT work. Even after 10 or more years, if you put two surfaces together that were painted with latex for any significant time, specially in the sun, they will stick to each other. If You get sun on a window painted with ANY kind of latex, the window will stick. there is no way around it.


Now I live in the Seattle area, so we don't see a lot of sun, but it does come out in the summer, and I have to disagree with the above statement. It's not an open and shut case. (I had to throw that in there). If what you're saying were true, then all the people I've painted for over the last 20 years would be calling me up saying that their windows are stuck. But they don't. Cuz they're not. And aside from one job where the HO spec'd BM high gloss impervo oil on the trim, they've all been latex. Now they are a good quality latex, I typically use premium paints, especially on trim, but still latex. Or acrylic. WB for sure. 
We are very neat and clean, and I have done a bit of window restoration in my time, so I am always on my guys not to paint windows shut etc, but I don't think it's quite as black and white as you are portraying.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Did you happen by chance to work on The Lincoln Cottage?


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

No, I did not get to work on the Lincoln Cottage. Would have loved too. I think the general contractor there did it themselves. He actually came to my shop looking for a specific glass but I didn't have what he needed.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Damon T. It is as cut and dry as I said. I will NOT warranty any window painted with any kind of latex. Too many possibilities and issues. Not worth the trouble. I am tired of customers calling me to tell me their windows are sticking just to find that the latex paint is the problem.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

albert kreis said:


> OK, Guys. I am a Historic window and door restoration contractor in the MD, VA southern PA area. I restore old historic wood windows,( with the ropes and weights). These old windows need special care when painting. Specially with regards to the kind of paint used. These old windows must be painted with Oil based paints. There is no way around it. You cannot use Latex paint and expect these windows to operate properly and smoothly. They were designed in an era before latex. Latex paint does not let the sashes move smoothly, specially when the sun hits it. Oil paint develops a hard chalky surface to it witch allows the windows to operate very smoothly and not stick shut. I don't care how advanced the latex paint is it will not work as well as oil on these old windows.
> Painters are my nemesis. I restore the windows to perfect working order and the painters come in and ignore the request for oil paint and paint my windows shut. Now they will not operate smoothly and they stick. And the customer wants to know why they don't operate properly. Every painting contractor I have had experience with is sloppy with how they paint windows and balks at using oil paint. They try to sneak latex in ignore basic principles for painting windows. They caulk all my Sash stop moldings up after I go through the trouble to recreate original moldings with proper shadow lines and reveals. They come in with a crew that seems to have no clue as to our requests and proceed to screw up my windows.
> I had to start putting it in all my quotes that We will not warranty any window in any way that has been painted with latex paint. I have had a couple jobs since, that have had to pay me to take the windows apart again so they can remove all the latex in all the sash contact areas.
> WHY is it so damn hard to find a painter that will do these windows properly and use oil like is needed? If anyone knows of someone in my area that knows how to do windows properly and will do as I require please let me know.
> Albert / Fairviewglass.com


Why am I not having a Happy Time on a Professional Painters forum?:blink:
Perhaps it's not the type of paint they use, it's the technique they use.
I can take a oil base paint and lock a window shut just as easy as with a latex paint. Just "flood it" and it'll all be the same.
What I'm saying is, it's not the paint; it's the painter.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Slinger. Yes you can lock a window with oil. But once you break it loose it will never stick again. Oil gets a chaulky residue on it where as latex can become sticky in the sun or heat. I see it all the time. There has to be some paint on the inside jambs where the sash contacts the frame. And when that paint is latex it causes issues every time. 2 or 3 years later your customers aren't gonna call you cause their windows are sticky and not operating smooth. They are just gonna chaulk it up to the old windows, not the painter from 3 years ago. I am sure you are careful when you paint, That helps a whole lot, but its not a cure for the problem. If its working for you you don't need to change. It hasn't worked for me so I will not warranty it any more. Way too many problems. its not just the paint or just the painter. Its both! Both have an effect on the final result.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

The problem seems to be with the HOs hiring painters who don't adhere to your requirements. Solve the problem by hiring the painters yourself thereby retaining control. Sounds like the extra work and effort required would be worth it.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

RH said:


> The problem seems to be with the HOs hiring painters who don't adhere to your requirements. Solve the problem by hiring the painters yourself thereby retaining control. Sounds like the extra work and effort required would be worth it.


 No, not worth the trouble. It would spread me too thin without the compensation needed to actually make it worth it. I solved my issue by just adding it to my contracts that I will not warranty latex. I am just here to vent and hoping to find someone locally I can recommend in the future. And learn whatever I can here.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

albert kreis said:


> No, not worth the trouble. It would spread me too thin without the compensation needed to actually make it worth it. I solved my issue by just adding it to my contracts that I will not warranty latex. I am just here to vent and hoping to find someone locally I can recommend in the future. And learn whatever I can here.


Oh... I thought you were after a common sense solution. Vent away.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

RH said:


> The problem seems to be with the HOs hiring painters who don't adhere to your requirements. Solve the problem by hiring the painters yourself thereby retaining control. Sounds like the extra work and effort required would be worth it.


Just what I was going to say and then you said it.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

RH said:


> Oh... I thought you were after a common sense solution. Vent away.


 
Oh I am, That's the learning part. I am open to anything I can learn. I will never know it all no matter how much experience I have.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

He's not looking for answers, he's looking for an out.:yes:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Seems like its a big deal to you. Seems a shame you let those windows go to crap like that. 

How can you change that?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

albert kreis said:


> Damon T. It is as cut and dry as I said. I will NOT warranty any window painted with any kind of latex. Too many possibilities and issues. Not worth the trouble. I am tired of customers calling me to tell me their windows are sticking just to find that the latex paint is the problem.


Perhaps you are restoring the window to incorrect tolerances given real world conditions. Perhaps if you left a little more wiggle room in the windows they wouldn't stick so much. It might not be a painter or paint problem. Just sayin.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Personally, I think it would be great to come in and only have to apply the paint to a fully restored window and not have to mess with any of the prep. It would be a gig I would certainly be interested in doing - and I don't mind using oil at all. Perhaps you can go to some of the paint stores in your area and share your problem and then ask if they can give you the names of some guys who would do reliable and conscientious work. Then interview them just like you would somebody you might be hiring to work on your house. Seems like you ought to be able to find somebody willing to follow through on this. But be warned, as soon as you do recommend someone to an HO, you become somewhat accountable for the work they do. Perhaps not in the strict legal sense, but if they mess up, it will reflect badly on you.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

RH said:


> Personally, I think it would be great to come in and only have to apply the paint to a fully restored window and not have to mess with any of the prep. It would be a gig I would certainly be interested in doing - and I don't mind using oil at all. Perhaps you can go to some of the paint stores in your area and share your problem and then ask if they can give you the names of some guys who would do reliable and conscientious work. Then interview them just like you would somebody you might be hiring to work on your house. Seems like you ought to be able to find somebody willing to follow through on this. But be warned, as soon as you do recommend someone to an HO, you become somewhat accountable for the work they do. Perhaps not in the strict legal sense, but if they mess up, it will reflect badly on you.


Go ahead and reason with him, RH.
See what it gets ya. :no:


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Damon. I am adjusting the windows properly. They must be tight enough so that when latched they do not rattle. Yet they should move up and down with one hand or even one finger operation. Properly adjusted these old windows wedge themselves tight in the closed position. This allows the windows to seal better than anyone ever thought these windows could be. I could adjust them loosely and they would operate fine with latex but wouldn't be as weather tight as they could be. When adjusted properly the latex causes issues. Latex is a modern invention. It just isn't compatible with proper operation and proper adjustment of historic windows.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Slinger, If you cant post constructive ideas or posts don't even post. OK


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

RH, That's a good idea and it could work to an extent for me. I have found that most of the painters don't want to travel too far. they have lots of work without traveling much. I will travel an hr or slightly more in any direction from me for work. That could mean a 2 hr travel time for some painters. I do however work is most of the same neighborhoods regularly. So I could find someone for each neighborhood to recommend. Something to look into.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Go ahead and reason with him, RH.
> See what it gets ya. :no:


LOL... it's the ex-teacher in me.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

albert kreis said:


> Slinger, If you cant post constructive ideas or posts don't even post. OK


Lol. Have a good night guys.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> He's not looking for answers, he's looking for an out.:yes:


Yep. Typical window repair hack. 

Probably uses silicone too.


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## harmonicarocks (Nov 29, 2013)

albert kreis said:


> Damon T. It doesn't matter how many times you open and close them or how well the paint has cured. Latex of any kind will NOT work. Even after 10 or more years, if you put two surfaces together that were painted with latex for any significant time, specially in the sun, they will stick to each other. If You get sun on a window painted with ANY kind of latex, the window will stick. there is no way around it.


I think Damon is telling you right. If you use a Waterborne product like Aura, or Muralo Ultimate, I don't think you will have the sticking problems. The WB products dry harder than regular latex exterior.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

harmonicarocks said:


> I think Damon is telling you right. If you use a Waterborne product like Aura, or Muralo Ultimate, I don't think you will have the sticking problems. The WB products dry harder than regular latex exterior.


I need answers that explain why. Don't just tell me something, explain how or why it does what it does. This helps ME learn. I am not a painter and don't know all of whats out there or the whys and hows of painting. This answer helps me understand just a little better Damans claims. I doubt most painters will be using a premium paint unless specifically asked too. I am going to look into this, get me some samples and do some testing. Worth a try.
Most of my testing is done on My old house. My windows have gone through quite an evolution.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

is oil based top coat enamel unavailable in the U.S ? We still use it down here. Its a rock hard finish and excellent for window frames.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Yes Brian, Oil Alkyd enamel is available and the preferred for windows. Our problem is 2 part. The Government is trying to discourage its use and move away from it altogether. It is not available in some localities, where it is locally banned. We can still freely get primer but not top coat everywhere. Or in all forms. I can buy a quart labeled for wood and metal but the gallons of the same stuff are only labeled for metal. The other is the ease of use and clean up of the latex. Painters don't want to have the extra troubles and expence there.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

This Month I have been painting 22yrs 
At 16 nearly most surfaces were painted in oil based paint in Sydney 

This Year I have used oil based maybe two times in a Top Coat finish and maybe used the same amount in undercoat . And all my work is domestic repaint I can't believe i hardly touch oil based paint anymore 

So I paint allot of old timber sash windows and I use Dulux Aqua Enamel and I'm very happy with it no call backs : ) 

This Front Door I would of painted in oil based a few years ago 
The old acrylics the spine of the door would stick 
No problems with the Aqua Enamel the main key for me is dry time I think recoat is 2hrs even then 
I would get a coat On in the morning and recoat the next day that has worked for me a full day before recoating it's all about embracing the new products and how to use them some painters don't want to or know how to use them 

I found what works for me and my type of work and put the time into the product I like 

I'm a sole trader with my Name on my work
I would be getting call backs if my windows are stuck lol instead I get call backs for more work or referrals 











This white Front door I did last week also done in Aqua Enamel and coming from an Old School background oil-based Gloss Enamel would of been first choice but when you find a product that you have faith in and hey I'm the professional that's my job that door was done in Aqua Enamel it will outlast the oil based which will cop the morning Aussie sun everyday


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm a sole trader with my Name on my work

Me too. My name and reputation is everything to me.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Ben, you are a true profesional painter to use grey primer for green topcoat.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

albert kreis said:


> Painters are my nemesis.





albert kreis said:


> I need answers that explain why. Don't just tell me something, explain how or why it does what it does. This helps ME learn. I am not a painter and don't know all of whats out there or the whys and hows of painting. This answer helps me understand just a little better Damans claims. I doubt most painters will be using a premium paint unless specifically asked too. I am going to look into this, get me some samples and do some testing. Worth a try.
> Most of my testing is done on My old house. My windows have gone through quite an evolution.





albert kreis said:


> Yes Brian, Oil Alkyd enamel is available and the preferred for windows. Our problem is 2 part. The Government is trying to discourage its use and move away from it altogether. It is not available in some localities, where it is locally banned. We can still freely get primer but not top coat everywhere. Or in all forms. I can buy a quart labeled for wood and metal but the gallons of the same stuff are only labeled for metal. The other is the ease of use and clean up of the latex. Painters don't want to have the extra troubles and expence there.


Albert,
Just a thought- since you are coming to a forum for professional painters asking for advice and cooperation in solving your problem, you might want to avoid using statements like those above. 

It's true that the painting industry has it's share of guys trying to get by on the cheap, and those that may not care about doing a job properly. But I don't think it's too much higher than in any other trade profession (like window restorations). Many painters take great pride in their skills, have extensive knowledge of the proper products to use and the proper application techniques, and care about doing a job properly so it will not only look good but last and protect. It sounds like you have had some bad experiences with some painters you have come into contact with. But it also sounds like you haven't been going about the right way to locate quality people. Trust me, they are out there and many of them are active participants on this forum. Just don't let your experiences so far affect the way you write about our profession. If you do, you may effectively cut your own throat here before you've even gotten started.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

So Ben, exactly what is behind the green door? :whistling2:


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

I may be generalizing a bit. But this is exactly my experience. I am sure there are good, professional and conscientious, painters out there. But I do stand by my experience that they are the minority. Not your everyday painters. 
Sorry for the generalization.

I will also add that, I have never so far gone out of my way to try and find good painters. All that I have delt with have been through jobs I have done and the painters already working other parts of those jobs. I have always just primed all my work and left the painting up to the HO or general contractor. This is the first time I have actively reached out to try and see what I can do about this because I know they are out there. If I can help my customers its worth the trouble.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

We use a linseed oil based glazing/paint system for old windows.
Works like a charm except for the dry time between coats.
Strip 'em first with infra-red and then go to town!
Ship the windows up here and we'll paint them for you.

http://www.solventfreepaint.com/


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I missed this post yesterday, but hey, I will paint all your windows with oil, no problem and I am not that far away.


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## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

albert kreis said:


> Damon T. It doesn't matter how many times you open and close them or how well the paint has cured. Latex of any kind will NOT work. Even after 10 or more years, if you put two surfaces together that were painted with latex for any significant time, specially in the sun, they will stick to each other. If You get sun on a window painted with ANY kind of latex, the window will stick. there is no way around it.


 Install weather stripping instead of relying on two painted surfaces to make a weather tight seal. Small sacrifices sometimes must be made in maintaining historical appeal.

I used to paint the inside tracks of old double hungs with flat oil back in the day so it would powder up and operate freely.


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## dnegri (Jun 16, 2012)

if I continually ran into that situation I would do 1 of 2 things ,! I would hire a qualified painter or 2 semi retired painters 
and include the painting in the price of the restoration. You have already established your self as the expert.
You could charge a premium. you would tell the story of your past dilemma of trying to find qualified painters ,
thats why you chose to include the painting in the proposal

Or number 2 find a couple of painters in your area that you can interview and would feel comfortable referring.

now you are in control of the process and the hero because everything works the way its suppose to be you get more referrals
and on grows the businness


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

:sleep1:


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

dnegri said:


> if I continually ran into that situation I would do 1 of 2 things ,! I would hire a qualified painter or 2 semi retired painters
> and include the painting in the price of the restoration. You have already established your self as the expert.
> You could charge a premium. you would tell the story of your past dilemma of trying to find qualified painters ,
> thats why you chose to include the painting in the proposal
> ...


He isn't interested in taking on responsibility. He is interested in shifting responsibility.

I work with a window restoration contractor two times (on average) each year. He repairs and preps the windows for painting. They don't stick. 

Of course, he knows what he's doing.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

liability,liability,liability

I have a couple names I can send you


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

epretot said:


> He isn't interested in taking on responsibility. He is interested in shifting responsibility.
> 
> I work with a window restoration contractor two times (on average) each year. He repairs and preps the windows for painting. They don't stick.
> 
> Of course, he knows what he's doing.


(can't seem to find a "popcorn" smiley)


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Albert,

As much as I understand your plight, I have a feeling if you came to this forum with a carrot rather than a stick, you and the PROFESSIONAL painters here could reach a mutually beneficial solution. 


Unfortunately, we have had our fair share of folks who come here more willing to be confrontational than open to the other guy's obstacles, and perhaps it's just coincidental that they also call the mid-atlantic seaboard home. 


just sayin


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Gough said:


> (can't seem to find a "popcorn" smiley)


I'm subtly trying to bait daarch into closing this thread. 

I hope I don't have to resort to name calling.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Albert,
> 
> As much as I understand your plight, I have a feeling if you came to this forum with a carrot rather than a stick, you and the PROFESSIONAL painters here could reach a mutually beneficial solution.
> 
> ...


For years, I've been figuring out what's cause and what's effect.

Actually, I sorted it out. My brother and SIL moved there...and they've both become MASAHs.


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## EnglishDecorator (Sep 11, 2011)

sorry aint read the whole thread sorry if this has already been mentioned. 

Sash windows should not be painted where they slide up and down, there is your problem. Wax the inside edges.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

EnglishDecorator said:


> sorry aint read the whole thread sorry if this has already been mentioned.
> 
> Sash windows should not be painted where they slide up and down, there is your problem. Wax the inside edges.



That's what is confusing me about this thread. It sounds like the painters are coming in after the restorer is done and gone so how could they be painting the edges? But if the edges are not being painted, how could they stick no matter what kind of paint is being used, short of someone just not knowing how to paint a window. 

Do the painters take the windows apart after you leave and do edges? Makes no sense.
Unless your just talking about the bottom sticking to the sill.


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## EnglishDecorator (Sep 11, 2011)

notsure if your sash windows are similar to are sash windows, but the edges where the rope is , they should not be painted and you can wax or whatever with the sash in place. sounds like the guy restoring them is priming them? if so you are the one in the wrong.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

epretot said:


> I'm subtly trying to bait daarch into closing this thread.
> 
> I hope I don't have to resort to name calling.


I'm betting the OP doesn't come back.
Bender hurt his feelings with the snoozing emoticon.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

Isn't this forum for professional painters/contractors.....? If so why is this thread such a big debate? It should be closed by now. OP is clearly not a painter.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TrueColors said:


> Isn't this forum for professional painters/contractors.....? If so why is this thread such a big debate? It should be closed by now. OP is clearly not a painter.


I gave him the benefit of the leeway as being in a "related trade" .

He was expressing his perception of how painters affect his work - valid subject. However, I thought his internet people skills were lacking a certain finesse.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

daArch said:


> He was expressing his perception of how painters affect his work - valid subject. However, I thought his internet people skills were lacking a certain finesse.


 
You mean telling a group of painters that there are not any good painters isn't a good way to make friends?


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Yay it's that time of the year woo hoo Sorry just got excited put some tinsel on my Ute


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

Albert,
Sadly most of the alkyd paint that is available locally is a shadow of its former self. Most are made to dry faster and are generally high solids. What's more, almost all alkyd paint in areas governed by the OTC are only available in quarts.

I don't know what kind of guys painted after you in the past but we recently were involved with the window restoration at Woodlawn Plantation. Details of the restoration are in the following article:
http://blog.preservationleadershipforum.org/2013/01/25/restored-woodlawn-windows/#.Urg9I7RuEXg

We used donated paint. Valspar Duramax. Haven't had any complaints yet. All of the second story windows were painted so that they could operate.

Give me a buzz if you want to discuss working together. We have worked all over the metro DC area on a variety of historic landmarks and homes.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Roamer said:


> Albert,
> Sadly most of the alkyd paint that is available locally is a shadow of its former self. Most are made to dry faster and are generally high solids. What's more, almost all alkyd paint in areas governed by the OTC are only available in quarts.
> 
> I don't know what kind of guys painted after you in the past but we recently were involved with the window restoration at Woodlawn Plantation. Details of the restoration are in the following article:
> ...


 
Yes, I would agree that the oil paint available today isn't the same as in the past. While talking to the guy in the paint store I learned that while only the quart containers were labeled for wood and metal, The gallon containers labeled for metal only are actually the same thing. Even though the modern oil is different it is still better to use on these windows than latex. I have never had an issue with a window painted with oil, no matter how sloppy the painters were. Once the window is broken loose from the sloppy painting, it still works like a charm with no sticking. But I always have issues with the latex. I like to stick with what works for me and the oil works. I may be giving you a call.
If any of you here had the option of painting a window with the most modern latex or with oil. But the HO said they would hold you responsible for their sticking windows if you used latex, even a year or 2 down the road, knowing that responsibility was on you, what would you paint with? Would you still use latex with the confidence that there would be no issues at all? Or play it safe and use oil?
I want to learn more from people that actually know the ins and outs and can explain the whys and hows to me. I have a lot more questions in my head I want to know about. I may not take everything at face value and start doing everything you guys say, I do respect you opinion but have to 
ultimately do what I feel is best for my work.
Thanx


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

albert kreis said:


> Yes, I would agree that the oil paint available today isn't the same as in the past. While talking to the guy in the paint store I learned that while only the quart containers were labeled for wood and metal, The gallon containers labeled for metal only are actually the same thing. Even though the modern oil is different it is still better to use on these windows than latex. I have never had an issue with a window painted with oil, no matter how sloppy the painters were. Once the window is broken loose from the sloppy painting, it still works like a charm with no sticking. But I always have issues with the latex. I like to stick with what works for me and the oil works. I may be giving you a call.
> If any of you here had the option of painting a window with the most modern latex or with oil. But the HO said they would hold you responsible for their sticking windows if you used latex, even a year or 2 down the road, knowing that responsibility was on you, what would you paint with? Would you still use latex with the confidence that there would be no issues at all? Or play it safe and use oil?
> I want to learn more from people that actually know the ins and outs and can explain the whys and hows to me. I have a lot more questions in my head I want to know about. I may not take everything at face value and start doing everything you guys say, I do respect you opinion but have to
> ultimately do what I feel is best for my work.
> Thanx


I would use latex because I'm the painter. 

You basically have no idea what you are talking about.

You have ignored every single technical explanation for why latex will work. Not every latex will, but many do. 

You're welcome.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

What do people in Europe do with their 300 yr old buildings? 

The answer is out there.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

The last two historic places I've done I never had to worry about the windows sticking using latex paint cause both had me caulk the windows shut!


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

epretot said:


> I would use latex because I'm the painter.
> 
> You basically have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


 I have not ignored every explanation of why latex will work. Only one post actually gave me an answer as to exactly why it should work. And that made me decide to check it out. I hear them and I will be doing some testing to see if it in fact it does work for me. Maby it will and I will have learned something very valuable. I wont know for sure until I actually see it work. You don't have to take such a nasty tone. I am trying to fully understand some things here, Im not trying to start an argument. Maby I don't know much about paint, that's why Im here right now. I do know what has worked for me and what hasn't, That's all.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> What do people in Europe do with their 300 yr old buildings? The answer is out there.


Do they have Behr in Europe?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

epretot said:


> I would use latex because I'm the painter. You basically have no idea what you are talking about. You have ignored every single technical explanation for why latex will work. Not every latex will, but many do. You're welcome.


Stop beating around the bush epretot and tell him what you really think.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

albert kreis said:


> I have not ignored every explanation of why latex will work. Only one post actually gave me an answer as to exactly why it should work. And that made me decide to check it out. I hear them and I will be doing some testing to see if it in fact it does work for me. Maby it will and I will have learned something very valuable. I wont know for sure until I actually see it work. You don't have to take such a nasty tone. I am trying to fully understand some things here, Im not trying to start an argument. Maby I don't know much about paint, that's why Im here right now. I do know what has worked for me and what hasn't, That's all.


I could be wrong, but I believe there are some of the nations greatest painters on this site. Their knowledge is invaluable. Yet, it seems you don't value it. 

Your black and white perspective is ignorant. You just lamented how latex sucks and there are no quality painters. And you did it in a paint forum. 

I'm not being nasty. You just seem to have an axe to grind.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

epretot said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe there are some of the nations greatest painters on this site. Their knowledge is invaluable. Yet, it seems you don't value it.
> 
> Your black and white perspective is ignorant. You just lamented how latex sucks and there are no quality painters. And you did it in a paint forum.
> 
> I'm not being nasty. You just seem to have an axe to grind.


:gun_bandana::jester:


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I am an old school painter. My own house has timber window frames that are finished in gloss oil paint.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

hey, I like oil based paint. I just repainted my kitchen cabinets on my own place.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Oil or latex what ever, just another window to me.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

epretot said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe there are some of the nations greatest painters on this site. Their knowledge is invaluable. Yet, it seems you don't value it.
> 
> Your black and white perspective is ignorant. You just lamented how latex sucks and there are no quality painters. And you did it in a paint forum.
> 
> I'm not being nasty. You just seem to have an axe to grind.


 Have you not read any of my posts after the first couple? You are being nasty. I have said several times in different ways how I respect the knowledge here and want to learn something from you guys. I am listening and have said that in my experience I have not seen any latex work for what I need. The key words here are " in my experience" It may work for what you need, or what someone els needs. But so far it hasn't worked for me. I will look into what has been said here and try to find something that will work for me. What the hell els do you want me to do? Im not going to just blindly say , oh you are the almighty so if you said it it must be infallible fact and written in stone. Im not gonna do that. So get off your damn high horse and don't even reply to my posts if your gonna act like that. I am gonna investigate it and see for myself if I can make it work for me before I use it on a customers job.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Like Ben suggested, Try "water based enamel", it blocks much less than the more flexible exterior paints but can handle a bit of abuse by the weather.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Albert, simply buy the oil based paint yourself and instruct your painting contractor to use that product.
Simple. Problem solved.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Brian C said:


> hey, I like oil based paint. I just repainted my kitchen cabinets on my own place.


Nice Kitchen Brian


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

albert kreis said:


> Have you not read any of my posts after the first couple? You are being nasty. I have said several times in different ways how I respect the knowledge here and want to learn something from you guys. I am listening and have said that in my experience I have not seen any latex work for what I need. The key words here are " in my experience" It may work for what you need, or what someone els needs. But so far it hasn't worked for me. I will look into what has been said here and try to find something that will work for me. What the hell els do you want me to do? Im not going to just blindly say , oh you are the almighty so if you said it it must be infallible fact and written in stone. Im not gonna do that. So get off your damn high horse and don't even reply to my posts if your gonna act like that. I am gonna investigate it and see for myself if I can make it work for me before I use it on a customers job.


Hey, I already told you I would paint them all with oil, and got no response


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

chrisn said:


> Hey, I already told you I would paint them all with oil, and got no response


 Sorry, I did get your message and will be in touch at some point.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> What do people in Europe do with their 300 yr old buildings?
> 
> The answer is out there.


Do you suppose it's FPOE?
Or do they use FPOUS in Europe?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Monstertruck said:


> Do you suppose it's FPOE?
> Or do they use FPOUS in Europe?


Not sure. Havnt been there in a few years.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Painters are a funny group. If a guy wants something painted With a certain product then IMO you do and use what he wants. Besides for he's paying you to do it. Using what he wants releases you from culpability in any problems that could be material related. Your free and clear as far as material failure that way. It's a no brainier.

t


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

Oden said:


> Painters are a funny group. If a guy wants something painted With a certain product then IMO you do and use what he wants. Besides for he's paying you to do it. Using what he wants releases you from culpability in any problems that could be material related. Your free and clear as far as material failure that way. It's a no brainier.
> 
> t


 My opinion exactly. you do what the guy paying wants


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I would agree up to a point. That point is if the material selected is obviously such a poor choice that failure is assured. Then it's our duty as professionals to speak up.
Being asked to use oil versus latex would be a non-issue. At least for me.


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## albert kreis (Dec 22, 2013)

RH said:


> I would agree up to a point. That point is if the material selected is obviously such a poor choice that failure is assured. Then it's our duty as professionals to speak up.


Your right


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> I would agree up to a point. That point is if the material selected is obviously such a poor choice that failure is assured. Then it's our duty as professionals to speak up.
> Being asked to use oil versus latex would be a non-issue. At least for me.


It's been unclear in this thread whether we're talking about the interior or the exterior of the windows. If we're talking about the interiors, we'd have no problem using oil. In most cases, I'd probably walk before using oil on the exteriors. It has nowhere near the service life, at least in this climate. At the very least, we'd put together a disclaimer that the client acknowledges that the material they insist upon using is not consistent with best practices and will likely fail prematurely.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

RH said:


> I would agree up to a point. That point is if the material selected is obviously such a poor choice that failure is assured. Then it's our duty as professionals to speak up.
> Being asked to use oil versus latex would be a non-issue. At least for me.


Why do you say that ? Oil based enamel would last 5 to 7 years if its been primed properly and penetrol added.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Brian C said:


> Why do you say that ? Oil based enamel would last 5 to 7 years if its been primed properly and penetrol added.


Fades faster, cracks more, harder to maintain...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Why do you say that ? Oil based enamel would last 5 to 7 years if its been primed properly and penetrol added.


Not around here it won't. I think the combination of cold. wet winters and hot, dry summers is especially hard on oil paints. We've had some projects that would have to be repainted after every colder-than-average winter, as long as they were painted in oil. Change to acrylic...not a problem.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Fades faster, cracks more, harder to maintain...


G'day TJ

I have only used oil based twice this year and that was on an two interior job's 

Both white Gloss Enamel which also I found yellowed very quickly compared to the old Enamels 

But exterior I just don't use Oilbased on Exteriors for your reasons above anymore 

And have not looked back


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> It's been unclear in this thread whether we're talking about the interior or the exterior of the windows. If we're talking about the interiors, we'd have no problem using oil. In most cases, I'd probably walk before using oil on the exteriors. It has nowhere near the service life, at least in this climate. At the very least, we'd put together a disclaimer that the client acknowledges that the material they insist upon using is not consistent with best practices and will likely fail prematurely.


Yeah, only doing interior work I was thinking along those lines. Can't remember last time I used oil based for exterior work except maybe a front door under a full porch. And that was years ago.


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