# Seeding



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Someone mentioned in another post, the term "seeding". Was it Nace? I had not heard this term before, but now understand it first hand.
Sprayed first coat on some cabinets yesterday and saw what I thought were micro bubbles or contaminants landing in my paint.
After further investigation, it was indeed something in the paint itself. This could be the seeding that was talked about..
Not sure if pictures show it properly.
Going to paintshop to exchange today..


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I can see it. If I remember correctly, it was bad oil based paint from the factory?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

This was Advance btw. Possibly it flash frozen on truck or something. .?

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Old timers have told me it happens with all alkyd type paints every now and then even new unopened cans, however I havn't had it happen with advance. Here is a better picture of what it looks like. Very small particulate that would cog up any filter very quick. I don't think that advance froze, it doesn't survive a freeze cycle well at all.


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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

huh, I actually got a few cans of pigmented shellac from SW that did that. I gave them the batch number, got a different batch and everything was cool. They gave me free stuff too because of the product failure/extra prep I'd have to do.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

So I got 2 new gals. Different batch, different store. Had same problem! Thought I was going crazy. Cleaned out my sprayer, changed tips etc. Still happening. But proof was in the pudding..
Can you see it?! Cloud white on the left, ballet white on the right. Straight out of the can..This is turning into an epidemic! Ahhhhhh


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

That maybe unground pigment. The filtering process is very aggressive when filling paint. However this time of year with the rapid cooling after filling or the interior gallons on a pallet cooling differently then the exterior gallons may cause seeding. It’s never or rarely evident in the retain because it occurs after the batch is filled and shipped. Ask the rep to check the batch. Have a draw down done before you use the paint to determine if it’s in your lines filters or gun or if it’s in the paint. Always strain this time of year I hate to say.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

NACE said:


> That maybe unground pigment. The filtering process is very aggressive when filling paint. However this time of year with the rapid cooling after filling or the interior gallons on a pallet cooling differently then the exterior gallons may cause seeding. It’s never or rarely evident in the retain because it occurs after the batch is filled and shipped. Ask the rep to check the batch. Have a draw down done before you use the paint to determine if it’s in your lines filters or gun or if it’s in the paint. Always strain this time of year I hate to say.


 Ya, I guess straining could be an option. Funny the simple things. Which grade of strainer would you use. Like 180? The grits are so fine. Its definitely in the paint. I dried it down straight from the can..


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, I guess straining could be an option. Funny the simple things. Which grade of strainer would you use. Like 180? The grits are so fine. Its definitely in the paint. I dried it down straight from the can..


125 or 190 mess.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

NACE said:


> 125 or 190 mess.


I strained it but don't think it did much..ahhhhh.

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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Really sorry. I’d report those batches. Haven’t seen that in Advance before.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Old timers have told me it happens with all alkyd type paints every now and then even new unopened cans, however I havn't had it happen with advance. Here is a better picture of what it looks like. Very small particulate that would cog up any filter very quick. I don't think that advance froze, it doesn't survive a freeze cycle well at all.
> 
> 
> View attachment 103717


Funny you posted that Ironclad with the issues. I had the same exact thing with two gallons of ironclad this year. It was probably new old-stock, but it was a big issue.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I had this happen with satin impervo and it was a pain. We were matching existing impervo on new plantation shutters and I strained it with 190 mesh and that helped with most of it but if you looked close it was still on the final product. I bought three separate gallons from different stores but they all had the issue.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> I had this happen with satin impervo and it was a pain. We were matching existing impervo on new plantation shutters and I strained it with 190 mesh and that helped with most of it but if you looked close it was still on the final product. I bought three separate gallons from different stores but they all had the issue.


Ya, same here. Bought from 2 different stores. 2 different batches. Same issue. It's almost like a very fine sand in my paint. Can hardly see it until paint drys down. Talking with paint rep today to figure it out, but apparently it's all contaminated! Smack dab in middle of this cabinet job too. What a pain.

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I strained it but don't think it did much..ahhhhh.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


strain it through an old pair of panty hose. You can even fold the hose and double or quadruple strain it. Once you strain it run water through the strainer until all the paint is washed away. If it is seeds you will have hard little chunks in your strainer. If those chunks can be smashed, it is pigment. It they are too hard to smash they are a contaminant from the manufacturing process. Usually anyway.

are they round or odd shaped?

White in color or dark? Or another color? Smooth or rough?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

myself i think it's non-spec TiO2. I had an issue last year with a product doing the same thing. After i did my straining and washing and smashing and looking at it under magnification it was clear that it was TiO2 that was not properly ground. Probably from China. They have a tendency to send bulk products that are not to spec. Anyone who says BM processes their own TiO2 is full of 5hit! If they did their paints would be 40-50% more expensive than they are. Sourcing it from China is just too damn cheap for a company to be able to complete processing their own. It's about 1/10 the cost per pound from China than it is to source it from North America right now.

But sometimes they send some that isn't to spec, and BM or any company wouldn't catch it if they are scrimping on quality control.


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

PACman said:


> myself i think it's non-spec TiO2. I had an issue last year with a product doing the same thing. After i did my straining and washing and smashing and looking at it under magnification it was clear that it was TiO2 that was not properly ground. Probably from China. They have a tendency to send bulk products that are not to spec. Anyone who says BM processes their own TiO2 is full of 5hit! If they did their paints would be 40-50% more expensive than they are. Sourcing it from China is just too damn cheap for a company to be able to complete processing their own. It's about 1/10 the cost per pound from China than it is to source it from North America right now.
> 
> But sometimes they send some that isn't to spec, and BM or any company wouldn't catch it if they are scrimping on quality control.


Wouldn't this effect the color too? if it was non-spec TiO2.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cardgunner said:


> Wouldn't this effect the color too? if it was non-spec TiO2.


no. I'm talking about the grind spec. It may effect the color a tiny bit but could also effect the hide. if the seeds are perfectly round, hard, and white then it is an off spec microsphere issue.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

PACman said:


> strain it through an old pair of panty hose. You can even fold the hose and double or quadruple strain it. Once you strain it run water through the strainer until all the paint is washed away. If it is seeds you will have hard little chunks in your strainer. If those chunks can be smashed, it is pigment. It they are too hard to smash they are a contaminant from the manufacturing process. Usually anyway.
> 
> are they round or odd shaped?
> 
> White in color or dark? Or another color? Smooth or rough?


I'll do some more tests tomorrow. Rep is bringing me more paint. At this point, it's hard to tell if its granules or micro bubbles that are popping and leaving a tiny bump. If that's the case it may be something to do with an anti foam agent or something.. i dunno..Will keep ya'll posted. So stressful..:vs_OMG:


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

I'd like to know, if it is non-spec pigment, why was it in my gallons of Ironclad?

According to many, BM is the Christ Child of greatness. I forgot about the whole incident until this thread, but it's mighty saucy to excuse a big problem like that.

Two days of labor was expended on this garbage. Two guys @ 20 for 16 hours. So, $320 in direct labor cost, plus another $250ish in indirect. $570 out of pocket for nothing.

It's not a BIG problem, but you've got people on here complaining about someone owing them 200 bucks.

I just wasted $570 for zero result, not to mention having to re-sand everything.

If you flush half a grand down the toilet every couple days, you're not likely to find to much profitability in a small business. 

Pisses me off, is all.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

for more detail:

We were re-glazing and restoring 9 over 9 sashes in the shop. Painting and racking. The issue was not apparent until we pulled the sashes off the rack for the second coat. 

The only saving grace in my case was that the house had full wood storms and we were doing it as a winter fill-in.

If it was time-sensitive, we'd have be hosed.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ParamountPaint said:


> I'd like to know, if it is non-spec pigment, why was it in my gallons of Ironclad?
> 
> According to many, BM is the Christ Child of greatness. I forgot about the whole incident until this thread, but it's mighty saucy to excuse a big problem like that.
> 
> ...


there would still be some TiO2 in a neutral base. Unless it is a factory black and even then there is some. Unless a base is completely clear, which is rare in architectural paints, there will be some TiO2. AND any other pigment colors can have a non-spec grind. TiO2 is just in almost everything, that's why i usually go to it right off the bat. That's why i asked what color the seed were. 

Of course none of this actually helps you with your problem though!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

ParamountPaint said:


> I'd like to know, if it is non-spec pigment, why was it in my gallons of Ironclad?
> 
> According to many, BM is the Christ Child of greatness. I forgot about the whole incident until this thread, but it's mighty saucy to excuse a big problem like that.
> 
> ...


 C163 Ironclad was discontinued almost 10 years ago. No offense but use old product at your own risk as its well past its supported shelf life... P23 is the current product to use.



If it was 'off spec' Ti02, which I do not believe is sourced from china and thus more stable pricing compared to SW & PPG, why would I only see this in alkyd paints?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> C163 Ironclad was discontinued almost 10 years ago. No offense but use old product at your own risk as its well past its supported shelf life... P23 is the current product to use.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was 'off spec' Ti02, which I do not believe is sourced from china and thus more stable pricing compared to SW & PPG, why would I only see this in alkyd paints?


now that is a good question. I guess it's up to BM to figure that one out. And it simply isn't economically feasible for a company to not source a large percentage of their processed TiO2 from China. The commodity pricing they base their production cost forecasts on and the trade futures are based on China's wholesale cost. They may be actually paying a US based company for it, but it is physically coming from China, at least a large percentage of it.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Update! Ok. Well this is getting disturbingly interesting..
Paint Rep is half dumbfounded and half wondering if its because humidity is so low right now..
I'm calling BS.
I dont think this is seeding.. It appears more like these are micro bubbles in the paint that are getting trapped in the film and drying with the appearance of sand or something. 
He thinks it's because paint is drying too fast but... I tested with other cans of Advance in my shop that aren't leaving these micro bubbles.
In fact you can see it right in the can! It's so obvious to me now. Wtf?! Im thinking something to do with anti foaming agents??! I've been comped 6 gals now and they all are doing the same thing..This last test I did with a can of Advance 1 base , no tint! Straight out of the can at paint shop..same thing. Need to get to the bottem of this..


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

looks like bubbles in these pics. can you look at them under a magnifying glass? 20x is best if you can. I use jewelers loupes i bought at harbor freight for $5. At that magnification it will be clear whether it is a bubble or a solid mass. It certainly looks like bubbles from Ohio though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

PACman said:


> looks like bubbles in these pics. can you look at them under a magnifying glass? 20x is best if you can. I use jewelers loupes i bought at harbor freight for $5. At that magnification it will be clear whether it is a bubble or a solid mass. It certainly looks like bubbles from Ohio though.


Good idea pacman. And yes it is looking like bubbles to me too. Gonna dig deeper into this.. stay tuned. However any input is appreciated..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

All paint cans have bubbles like that straight out of the mixer though.... That's why you don't shake a can of poly if your going to use it right away.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Here is a sample board with advance satin 1X base. Same can of paint. One with the air bubbles was applied with microplush, other was applied with 3/16 prodoozftp and 1oz/gal distilled water. We noticed the side with microplush dried 2x as fast as the prodoozftp side so we conclude microplush applies too thin.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> All paint cans have bubbles like that straight out of the mixer though.... That's why you don't shake a can of poly if your going to use it right away.


Totally understood. However, these cans have sat over night and still have bubbles on the surface. So weird..
I mean, they are try to mix oil and water are they not?!
At this point I'm paranoid, I've been wasting my days cracking every can of Advance to experiment..
I never noticed this before and now it seems like every can has it..! 
Maybe Advance has always been that fussy but just lucked out? The humidity has been down 35% , but I don't know if that has that much to do with it or not,..
How does one raise the humidity in a room..without an air exchanger?

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Totally understood. However, these cans have sat over night and still have bubbles on the surface. So weird..
> I mean, they are try to mix oil and water are they not?!
> At this point I'm paranoid, I've been wasting my days cracking every can of Advance to experiment..
> I never noticed this before and now it seems like every can has it..!
> ...



Advance has always been fussy for me. Have you tried thinning with just a bit of distilled water to reduce surface tension?


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Humidity seems like a cop out, but it could be that the water portion is evaporating and drying the film too quickly, leaving it uncured beneath.

I don't know about that, but hot mud works like that if you try and paint it too soon.

My rant on the seeding in the Ironclad was a mostly-forgotten wound ripped open...I was very bitter about it at the time.

If you wanted to test the humidity thing, room humidifiers are pretty cheap. I just bought a warm mist ultrasonic one for the baby's room for $150. I doubt paint cares if the mist is warm or cool, and the cool mist ones are very inexpensive.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Here is a sample board with advance satin 1X base. Same can of paint. One with the air bubbles was applied with microplush, other was applied with 3/16 prodoozftp and 1oz/gal distilled water. We noticed the side with microplush dried 2x as fast as the prodoozftp side so we conclude microplush applies too thin.


I'm applying mine by airless spray. 208fflp. However, I've even had success applying with an hvlp which go on thinner an drys the paint much quicker..just never noticed this issue befoe..

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Advance has always been fussy for me. Have you tried thinning with just a bit of distilled water to reduce surface tension?


Distilled as in Bottled water? And not tap water? I was alsonthinking about some extender..

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

seems like a lot of work just to use a paint. If you ask me anyway.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Distilled as in Bottled water? And not tap water? I was alsonthinking about some extender..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk



You can use XIM or M1 extender. Or just clean water. Maybe also try a 0.10" Tip like a 310.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> You can use XIM or M1 extender. Or just clean water. Maybe also try a 0.10" Tip like a 310.


Ya, I primarily use a 310 or 208 fflp. Bought a humidifier yesterday. Gonna Try to pump up the humidity levels a bit add a litttle extender .and try another go today. So behind schedule!

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

PACman said:


> seems like a lot of work just to use a paint. If you ask me anyway.


Right! Trust me, I would love to try your ultra plate, but seems unfeasible to be constantly ordering it all the way to NL.. 

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Ok. So here's the update. I Bought a humidifier and stuck it in the spray room over night, Got the humidity up to almost 50% (from 30)..
I added some extender to one of the gals. Stirred it and let settle over night.
I gently loaded my airless and gave it a go. May I add that I turned the heat down a smig as well.
Seemed to do the trick. Like a sheet of glass as always. I've never had this issue before, but must conclude that the very low humid conditions along with freshly shaken Advance is a bad combo.
I agree that Advance is a fussy product, but man what a good looking finish when things are going right. .live and learn 

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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks for coming back letting us all know what you found, glad you got it shorted out. I sprayed Advance once got a stellar looking finish on some built in's. I have been gun shy after reading all the problem's PC's are having with micro bubbles in the finish with this product. I think the viscosity of a lot of the new formulas are a problem not only in low humidity conditions but outside as well ..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Delta Painting said:


> Thanks for coming back letting us all know what you found, glad you got it shorted out. I sprayed Advance once got a stellar looking finish on some built in's. I have been gun shy after reading all the problem's PC's are having with micro bubbles in the finish with this product. I think the viscosity of a lot of the new formulas are a problem not only in low humidity conditions but outside as well ..


So you've heard of other people mentioning micro bubbles with this product?!

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