# Finish advice for window sills



## PNW Painter

I'm finishing some Beech window sills and I'm attempting to match the built-in cabinets done by a local prefinisher. The prefinisher gave me a gallon of the stain they used for the cabinets, but that's all the info I have at the moment.

At this point I'm trying to figure out what products and process I should use for these sills? I'm guessing they used lacquer for the cabinets, so I was thinking about using SW high-Bild Precat Lacquer, but I'm not sure what sanding sealer to use if I use this product.

Any advice, guidance, etc... would be helpful. Basically, what would you do if you were in my shoes?



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## CApainter

PNW Painter said:


> I'm finishing some Beech window sills and I'm attempting to match the built-in cabinets done by a local prefinisher. The prefinisher gave me a gallon of the stain they used for the cabinets, but that's all the info I have at the moment.
> 
> At this point I'm trying to figure out what products and process I should use for these sills? I'm guessing they used lacquer for the cabinets, so I was thinking about using SW high-Bild Precat Lacquer, but I'm not sure what sanding sealer to use if I use this product.
> 
> Any advice, guidance, etc... would be helpful. Basically, what would you do if you were in my shoes?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not much of an expert at wood finishing, but from reading some automotive painting books, lacquer is not UV stable. That's why polyurethanes are preferred.


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## CApainter

The product TDS does state it has some UV stability.


From the SW High Bild PreCat lacquer:

• Contains UV absorber to significantly reduce the discoloration of natural wood from exposure to sunlight. • Good resistance to household chemicals. • Good flexibility - passes 20 KCMA cold check cycles.

The choice to use lacquer is significant when considering chemical contact and resistance. It appears to be a better choice in those situations than most waterborne products.


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## RH

We do a fair amount of sill refinishing and I use Target Coating’s Emtech 8000 Pre-Catalyzed Waterborne Conversion Varnish. A bit spendy (you can order it online) but it’s easy to work with, dries fairly quick, brushes out nice, low odor, and is supposed to be good on the UV and moisture fronts. Time will tell I guess, but experience has shown me most of the older products don’t hold up with time so...


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## CApainter

RH said:


> We do a fair amount of sill refinishing and I use Target Coating’s Emtech 8000 Pre-Catalyzed Waterborne Conversion Varnish. A bit spendy (you can order it online) but it’s easy to work with, dries fairly quick, brushes out nice, low odor, and is supposed to be good on the UV and moisture fronts. Time will tell I guess, but experience has shown me most of the older products don’t hold up with time so...


It looks like a good product. At a hundred bucks a gallon it better be good.


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## RH

CApainter said:


> It looks like a good product. At a hundred bucks a gallon it better be good.


Wow - is that with shipping added on? 

I pay about $65 through my local Miller dealer - a place PNW should have access to. I think Dean mentioned once that he found it for less than $60 online somewhere but not sure if shipping was included.


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## CApainter

RH said:


> Wow - is that with shipping added on?
> 
> I pay about $65 through my local Miller dealer - a place PNW should have access to. I think Dean mentioned once that he found it for less than $60 online somewhere but not sure if shipping was included.


I think it included shipping. It was just some arbitrary site.

But even at $100.00 a gallon, if it works, it's worth it.


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## ridesarize

PNW Painter said:


> I'm finishing some Beech window sills and I'm attempting to match the built-in cabinets done by a local prefinisher. The prefinisher gave me a gallon of the stain they used for the cabinets, but that's all the info I have at the moment.
> 
> At this point I'm trying to figure out what products and process I should use for these sills? I'm guessing they used lacquer for the cabinets, so I was thinking about using SW high-Bild Precat Lacquer, but I'm not sure what sanding sealer to use if I use this product.
> 
> Any advice, guidance, etc... would be helpful. Basically, what would you do if you were in my shoes?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not sure if you have to match the clear coat as well. A good cabinet shop probably would use conversion varnish instead of lacquer, but lacquer might work if the client isn't really particular.

For sanding sealer with lacquer... I think thinning the lacquer about 10-15% works just fine for a sanding sealer coat.

Do you think the stain was put on the raw wood, or put in between clear coat to even the color? If you put the stain on the wood, I would think about putting a wood conditioner on first. Do some samples of course to figure out what is needed.


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## woodcoyote

I would suggest using a waterbased finish coat. 

General Finishes 450 exterior. 

It's an exterior product yes, but it will resist fading which is your primary concern for window sills. Not many people will sit on them as most won't even be able to fit on them. So color retention is your main concern for a long lasting job. Dries hard enough to not mar up easily too.

If your stain is oil based, which more than likely it is, wait overnight to finish it. It can be done in the same day, but you risk having undried stain in the pores or cracks/crevices and causing issues with the water based top coat.


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## Haris

We do quite a bit of staining and lacquering and I find Cloverdale clear solvent base precat lacquer works the best. We don't use sealers, just spray 3 coats of lacquer using 210 fine finishing tip and get excellent results every time. If you are using alcohol base stain let it dry for at least 24 hours before spraying first coat of lacquer.


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## PNW Painter

Here's a pic of one of the cabinet doors and a sample piece of the sill sanded with 150 grit and then stained. It's too blotchy, so I know I'll need to use a sealer.

The SW vinyl sealer recommended in this system has a 24 hr pot life once it's been catalyzed, which makes it a little tougher to test.

At this point I really want to say f-it and just go water based. It feels like I'm gambling by going with a solvent lacquer system, because it's so unfamiliar to me.

As I see it my options for Waterbased finishes that are locally available are Valspar Zenith, SW Kem Aqua Plus, SW Sayerlack and General Finishes 450. The Target Emtech 8000 may be available, but the last time I talked with my Miller dealer they said they stopped stocking it because it wasn't selling.











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## woodcoyote

PNW Painter said:


> As I see it my options for Waterbased finishes that are locally available are Valspar Zenith, SW Kem Aqua Plus, SW Sayerlack and General Finishes 450. The Target Emtech 8000 may be available, but the last time I talked with my Miller dealer they said they stopped stocking it because it wasn't selling.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A couple of notes.

- Zenith has a good reputation but Valspar recently sold off their wood finishing division. Not that that means much, but usually when a company is going through a transition phase or a new company buys out another one, I tend to shy away from the product until things "settle down" some.


- Kem Aqua Plus is a good product, very stout when I used it for doors. It does yellow just a tad bit over time, but not much. Does contain U.V. absorbers as well. If memory serves me right it isn't a crystal clear or water white finish so it does impart a tad bit of yellow when first goes on. 

- Sayerlack generally has excellent products. Never used their waterbased finish system, but have used their 2 part poly and that stuff is awesome. I'd double check your local sw store because chances are they won't have it in stock and it could take some shipment lead time to get it. It wouldn't be a product I would expect to get within a week or just by walking in, but you never know. 
When you have a foot note like this about it: "Catalyze with XA4081 to improve early hardness". I would definitely heed the advice and do it, anything catalyzed is stronger than without the catalyst and stronger means less chance of damage/touch-ups, so you can spray and walk away. 

- General Finishes 450 is a great product. I've used their stains and sealers outside and when done right (3 coat sealer system outside), they tend to last a long time (several years without top coating). Other than the Kem Aqua, this is probably your easiest out-of-the-can product that delivers good results. I wouldn't expect this product to be as tough as the Kem Aqua, but I would expect it to resist color change and fading far better than the Kem Aqua. So it's a trade off of characteristics. 

If you might have an indication that kids play with the window sill, people put cold glasses of water on them maybe, etc., I wouldn't use the 450 product. It will have a softer finish than the above mentioned products. If not and you want max color retention/fade resistance, I would use 450 exterior clear. 

Hope that helps. 


Side note: 
Looks like a dye stain or a spray no wipe stain on the sample of the left. Your best bet (easiest) would be to take it in to the store, get a match as close as possible and stain/tone your sills. It won't be exactly the same, but the color will be similar and that's what people are really after. An after market stain job when mimicking another finisher's finish is generally accepted to be different, but color differences are not acceptable in the customer's eyes.

I prefer BAC wiping stains because they generally dry fast and I can top-coat sooner. Another benefit to working with General Finishes is that they have the best water based stain system I've encountered. Look into investing in their RTM (ready to mix) system, or if anything their color box. 
I can't cound how many times I've used that box and it always impresses the customer when you show up with 300+ stain samples to pick from in a polished wooden box.


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## RH

PNW Painter said:


> Here's a pic of one of the cabinet doors and a sample piece of the sill sanded with 150 grit and then stained. It's too blotchy, so I know I'll need to use a sealer.
> 
> The SW vinyl sealer recommended in this system has a 24 hr pot life once it's been catalyzed, which makes it a little tougher to test.
> 
> At this point I really want to say f-it and just go water based. It feels like I'm gambling by going with a solvent lacquer system, because it's so unfamiliar to me.
> 
> As I see it my options for Waterbased finishes that are locally available are Valspar Zenith, SW Kem Aqua Plus, SW Sayerlack and General Finishes 450. The Target Emtech 8000 may be available, but the last time I talked with my Miller dealer they said they stopped stocking it because it wasn't selling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When I first started using the Emtech 8000, Miller had to order it in since I was the only one using it. Now they stock it since quite a few of us around here are. Still, when I know I am going to need it I make sure they will have some in for me. Like most clear coat products, a gallon will go a long way. Emtech also makes a flattening agent which can be added to the 8000 to knock the satin sheen down a notch or two if needed. My Miller guys just do that for me when I buy it - no charge.


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## PNW Painter

The prefinisher gave me the stain they used (I have no idea what it actually is) and the GC said you could either spray or wipe it on. I'm calling them first thing this morning to see if they'll give me any additional info about the stain or what products they used.

Woodcoyote, thanks for the info on all the products I mentioned. It's very helpful and appreciated. The sills are for a 3rd story addition on a house and two of the rooms are for 2 kids under 6 years old.






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## XYZ

Thanks *woodcoyote* for sharing your experiences.
_Screen saved for future references. _


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## PNW Painter

So, I ended up picking up 4 gallons of SW Hydroplus and started experimenting with it today. 

The first thing I figured out is that you can't use Hydroplus as a sanding sealer and then apply a solvent based stain over it. The stain won't penetrate into the wood. Now I need to take a step backwards and apply a solvent based sanding sealer, then the stain and then the Hydroplus. Hopefully, I'll be able to produce a sample that my client will approve tomorrow.

It's been a good learning experience so far, but at this point deadlines are looming and I need to figure this out.


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## Woodco

Why are you using sand sealer before the stain?


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## Delta Painting

Woodco said:


> Why are you using sand sealer before the stain?



Seals the wood so the stain will have a even finish..


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## PNW Painter

Delta Painting said:


> Seals the wood so the stain will have a even finish..




Exactly. Without the sanding sealer the wood looked very blotchy when I tried staining it.


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## lilpaintchic

PNW Painter said:


> Exactly. Without the sanding sealer the wood looked very blotchy when I tried staining it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why not use Benite?


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## Woodco

Use pre-stain conditioner, not sanding sealer... 

IDK what you guys use, but every sanding sealer I've ever used is merely an easily sandable version of the clear coat that goes on top of it.

If you seal the wood, how is it supposed to absorb stain?


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## lilpaintchic

My understanding is a pre conditioner or Benite is essentially a "primer" to aid in consistent coloring....im with you woodco, sealing it doesnt make sense until the color is right..the stain can't penetrate.youd put it on then wipe it all off...


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## PNW Painter

Funny you mention it, but I ended up using Benite to seal it. After applying the stain and 2 top coats for my sample, it looks a little lighter compared to the doors the pre-finisher produced.

Hopefully the clients will approve it, but if they don't I'll have my BM dealer do a custom match using General Finishes stains. It's a bummer that I just found out today that they offer this service. Had I known earlier, I wouldn't have bothered using the stain the pre-finishers gave me.




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## XYZ

Technogod said:


> lilpaintchic, the real purpose of sealing the wood is controlling the blotching and creating a foundation to the next level of your schedule.
> you really cannot seal the wood like you are sealing a wall or priming for a solid color.
> you have to know the solid content of your sealer.vinyl or not,valspar or sherwin or else brand,what matters is the solid content.
> once you get that number the rest is really very easy.
> Every wood has a different reaction and saturation.We call this step WASHCOAT.
> Many type of wood has like %5 percent solid washing needs.
> The questioner uploaded a sample photo and if you look to the left side of the sample you will see the yellow hue wash coat on the backround.
> thats the color added wash coat foundation.
> 
> I am so tired of commercial bull****.sell their 5 dolars worth product to 50 and get rich from hard working ppl like us. at the end of the day it is all about simple diluted clear sealer.
> i even love to use shellac for the sealing purpose.more cheaper and pleasure to work with.
> 
> i keep asking questions to help the original questioner of this threat but he dont answer and loves to experiment tough and make his job hard:smile: oh well.i will be posting a tutorial about wood finishing when i have time just to return the favor to community.


. . . . . . . . :yes::thumbsup:


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## ridesarize

Woodco said:


> Use pre-stain conditioner, not sanding sealer...
> 
> IDK what you guys use, but every sanding sealer I've ever used is merely an easily sandable version of the clear coat that goes on top of it.
> 
> If you seal the wood, how is it supposed to absorb stain?


It doesn't, that's called toning at that point which avoids staining the summer growth (softer grain) and making it dark.


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## ridesarize

lilpaintchic said:


> Why not use Benite?


I am a big fan of Benite. But staining the wood with traditional stains is just not how the cabinet guys achieve their look. Traditional stain reverses the shades of light and dark grains.

Using dye and toning will preserve the grain coloration like the cabinet dudes do it.


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## PNW Painter

@Technogod Thanks for your help!!! I'll try my best to answer your questions.

The wood species is Birch.

A sealer wasn't used in the picture I previously posted. The wood was sanded with 150 grit and then stained. 

All I know about the stain is that its manufactured by Rudd and it has a strong solvent smell (maybe lacquer) compared to SW BAC wiping stain. According to the pre-finisher, they sprayed a coat of lacquer thinned 20-30% and then they applied the stain with an HVLP.

Benite is 30% solids by volume. Here's a link to the spec sheet:
http://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/PDF/specs/S-Benite.pdf

I don't have a picture of the sample board where I applied Benite. Most of the blotchyness is gone after applying Benite, but a little was still present. I really pushed the envelop by applying the stain about 3 hours after applying the Benite (a fan was blowing on it) and then applied 2 top coats about 45 minutes after that. 

The Benite data sheet says to wait 12-24 hrs of dry time, but at this point I didn't want to lose another day waiting for the Benite to dry. I pushed the envelope, but at this point all the sills are masked and ready go. If I don't get approval tomorrow morning it really starts messing up my production schedule.


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## PNW Painter

ridesarize said:


> I am a big fan of Benite. But staining the wood with traditional stains is just not how the cabinet guys achieve their look. Traditional stain reverses the shades of light and dark grains.
> 
> Using dye and toning will preserve the grain coloration like the cabinet dudes do it.


At this point I've learned a lot and in hindsight I would have approached this project very differently. If I could go back in time I would have given my BM dealer a sample to match with General Finishes or had SW Product Finishes do a match using the Hydroplus Stain. 

I've also realized that it would be helpful to have spray equipment that I can use to apply stains. All I have at the moment are two airless pumps and unless someone says otherwise, I don't think airless pump would be the best way to spray stains.


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## lilpaintchic

PNW Painter said:


> Funny you mention it, but I ended up using Benite to seal it. After applying the stain and 2 top coats for my sample, it looks a little lighter compared to the doors the pre-finisher produced.
> 
> Hopefully the clients will approve it, but if they don't I'll have my BM dealer do a custom match using General Finishes stains. It's a bummer that I just found out today that they offer this service. Had I known earlier, I wouldn't have bothered using the stain the pre-finishers gave me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Daly's can get you hooked up!! They do a fantastic job of it  and they can hook you up with exactly what you need to achieve the desired results.


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## lilpaintchic

Technogod said:


> lilpaintchic, the real purpose of sealing the wood is controlling the blotching and creating a foundation to the next level of your schedule.
> you really cannot seal the wood like you are sealing a wall or priming for a solid color.
> you have to know the solid content of your sealer.vinyl or not,valspar or sherwin or else brand,what matters is the solid content.
> once you get that number the rest is really very easy.
> Every wood has a different reaction and saturation.We call this step WASHCOAT.
> Many type of wood has like %5 percent solid washing needs.
> The questioner uploaded a sample photo and if you look to the left side of the sample you will see the yellow hue wash coat on the backround.
> thats the color added wash coat foundation.
> 
> I am so tired of commercial bull****.sell their 5 dolars worth product to 50 and get rich from hard working ppl like us. at the end of the day it is all about simple diluted clear sealer.
> i even love to use shellac for the sealing purpose.more cheaper and pleasure to work with.
> 
> i keep asking questions to help the original questioner of this threat but he dont answer and loves to experiment tough and make his job hard oh well.i will be posting a tutorial about wood finishing when i have time just to return the favor to community.


THAT'D BE AWESOME! I don't do much wood finishing...a tad here or there but it's be great to have a resource like the one you're talking about here on or. Not sure if there have been others in thevpadt, but the search function isn't great sometimes and it's be nice to have something fresh.


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## PNW Painter

I figured that it must be a fairly "easy" process since pre-finishers need to move projects through their shops quickly.
@Technogod Would it be wise for me to have BM create a stain match with General Finishes water based products, instead of using the lacquer toner that I've been using?

In the past 4 years I've applied clear finishes on a couple projects, but this is one of two projects I've worked on that involves staining. Needless to say I have a lot to learn, but I'm willing to spend the time and effort to learn. 


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## PNW Painter

lilpaintchic said:


> Daly's can get you hooked up!! They do a fantastic job of it  and they can hook you up with exactly what you need to achieve the desired results.



I used Daly's once in the past and they did a great job creating a custom stain match to a piece of flooring I gave them.


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## se;riv58srilejo gv

PNW Painter said:


> I figured that it must be a fairly "easy" process since pre-finishers need to move projects through their shops quickly.
> @Technogod Would it be wise for me to have BM create a stain match with General Finishes water based products, instead of using the lacquer toner that I've been using?
> 
> In the past 4 years I've applied clear finishes on a couple projects, but this is one of two projects I've worked on that involves staining. Needless to say I have a lot to learn, but I'm willing to spend the time and effort to learn.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


PNW painter,the purpose of lacquer toner is keeping the grain definition clean and speed up the finishing process.
i am assuming you are going to spray the lacquer toner.

all you need is a clear lacquer sealer and toner.(do not use any conditioner bull **** or something 
spray the sealer in full strenght.let it dry and sand with 220.(usually dryes in 30 minutes).
spray your toner as much as you need to get the color you want.
spray your sealer to set the color and your clear coat after.
do not delay your process after toning.try to spray your sealer in 5 minutes.

Stain have no place in this job you have.i mean the color and look you are after.sorry i know stain is your comfort zone but nothing you can do.
ohh by the way please do not use water base anything if your toner sealer and clear are lacquer.make sure all your products are same brand and same type solvent.do not listen what other ppl say.this is the rule for safe finishing.


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## XYZ

Technogod said:


> PNW painter,the purpose of lacquer toner is keeping the grain definition clean and speed up the finishing process.
> i am assuming you are going to spray the lacquer toner.
> 
> all you need is a clear lacquer sealer and toner.(do not use any conditioner bull **** or something
> spray the sealer in full strenght.let it dry and sand with 220.(usually dryes in 30 minutes).
> spray your toner as much as you need to get the color you want.
> spray your sealer to set the color and your clear coat after.
> do not delay your process after toning.try to spray your sealer in 5 minutes.
> 
> Stain have no place in this job you have.i mean the color and look you are after.sorry i know stain is your comfort zone but nothing you can do.
> ohh by the way please do not use water base anything if your toner sealer and clear are lacquer.make sure all your products are same brand and same type solvent.do not listen what other ppl say.this is the rule for safe finishing.


*Technogod*,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with all of us.
I have a question, (since I do not spry) do you think it's possible to achieve decent results following your 'recipe' by applying those products by brush and roll.


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## PNW Painter

Technogod said:


> PNW painter,the purpose of lacquer toner is keeping the grain definition clean and speed up the finishing process.
> i am assuming you are going to spray the lacquer toner.
> 
> all you need is a clear lacquer sealer and toner.(do not use any conditioner bull **** or something
> spray the sealer in full strenght.let it dry and sand with 220.(usually dryes in 30 minutes).
> spray your toner as much as you need to get the color you want.
> spray your sealer to set the color and your clear coat after.
> do not delay your process after toning.try to spray your sealer in 5 minutes.
> 
> Stain have no place in this job you have.i mean the color and look you are after.sorry i know stain is your comfort zone but nothing you can do.
> ohh by the way please do not use water base anything if your toner sealer and clear are lacquer.make sure all your products are same brand and same type solvent.do not listen what other ppl say.this is the rule for safe finishing.



Thanks for all your advice. Your system makes complete sense. Do you often use this type of system for on-site finishing, or do you only use in a shop based environment? 

Also, what type of spray equipment are you typically using to apply your sealer and toner? 

I'm now kicking myself for not following my gut and using a system I'm more familiar with from the start. At this point I put myself in a difficult situation because the client approved the sample where I applied Benite, Toner and then Hydroplus as the topcoat. 


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## Haris

There are many ways of applying stain and clear coats on top of it but I personally always liked the beauty of all the " imperfections " in real wood, different grain patterns, knots and colors. If you look at a single piece of hardwood flooring you'll find 10 different shades of color and grain patterns. In my opinion the whole point of using real wood and staining it it's to highlight all those wood "imperfections" and not to hide them. I realize different clients have different taste and request and they need to be met but having same colour uniformed coat takes away the beauty and unique look for each piece and different types of wood. Customer is always right of course and we need to do what they ask of us but it defeats the purpose of using real wood in my opinion.


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## lilpaintchic

PNW Painter said:


> Thanks for all your advice. Your system makes complete sense. Do you often use this type of system for on-site finishing, or do you only use in a shop based environment?
> 
> Also, what type of spray equipment are you typically using to apply your sealer and toner?
> 
> I'm now kicking myself for not following my gut and using a system I'm more familiar with from the start. At this point I put myself in a difficult situation because the client approved the sample where I applied Benite, Toner and then Hydroplus as the topcoat.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it's approved, go with it. Change it up on the next job.


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## PNW Painter

Hopefully the client and GC will be happy when I'm finished. When I was applying the stain I noticed a few spots that could have used additional sanding because you could see some mill marks. In the future, I'll ask the GC to include time in the schedule for sanding all the wood before it's installed.

Here's a couple pics I took after I applied the stain. With all the issues I had I think it turned out pretty good. Tomorrow I'll apply the clear and fill the nail holes. If all goes well I should be able to finish the sills tomorrow.



















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## XYZ

Looks very nice to me...
Let's hope the clear coat will make it... outstanding, and everybody will be very happy with your work.
Looks like you put so much effort in it, you deserve full happiness from your work.


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## Woodco

So you used a sealer first, then sprayed a dye and toner?

I've worked in cabinet shops, but we never used and dyes or sealers or anything like that, so I dont know that whole process. I checked the stains in Woodcraft once, and I dont know anything about those systems. 

In houses, I've always sprayed a coat of conditioner, then spray and wipe stain( Preferably lacquer based) sand sealer then lacquer.

In the cabinet shops I worked (which were mainly supplying tract homes, I'll admit) we would sometimes spray a toner that they called NGR. (I dont really know what it actually is though) then spray and wipe lacquer stains, then immediately spray three coats of catalyzed lacquer, sanding really good after the first coat.


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## woodcoyote

PNW Painter said:


> Also, what type of spray equipment are you typically using to apply your sealer and toner?
> 
> I'm now kicking myself for not following my gut and using a system I'm more familiar with from the start. At this point I put myself in a difficult situation because the client approved the sample where I applied Benite, Toner and then Hydroplus as the topcoat.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First off, good job on the staining. I think once you hit them with the clear it'll look sharp. 

Let me clear a few things up for you:
*1.)* You can skip the step of sealing before toning, not necessary. 
Good practice? Yah. Does it help? Somewhat. Just remember we're in the business of finishing so we can get paid, anything you can do to become efficient will help you. 

Just stain it,load your toner, and go. Quick scuff sand of the toner coat and apply 2 coats of top-coat finish with sanding in between. Done. 

*2.)* When you tone you want to use an HVLP setup. *Period*. It can be done with an airless but you really have to know what your doing and your results are probably going to suck. You just don't have so much control. Why? 
Here's an example:
Airless spray around 1,000 psi and up. 
HVLP sprays at around 10psi + or - a few. 

That should tell you a lot right there.

Edit:
Another example:
Spray patterns for airless are fans. That can only be controlled by changing the tip size. 

Spray patterns for HVLP guns can be controlled at the gun, including a round pattern. The round pattern is a life safer. 

*3.)* Top coats should always be applied with airless. It can be done with HVLP but you won't get your film build and your overall finish will be much better with an airless. It'll give you the mils you need and it's a ton faster. 

Hope that helps some.

Keep up the good work.


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## PNW Painter

Luckily I was able to finish the sills yesterday. Overall, I think they turned out really well and the only minor issues with the finish were a few spots where the mill marks weren't completely sanded out.

Thanks for everyone's advice. In the future I'll take a completely different approach based on what I've learned from everyone. 

Here's a couple pics. The most difficult area to finish was a sill that was about 10' high and 16' long. 











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## RH

I appreciate your dedication to your craft and desire to replicate the cabinet maker’s look. But, other than the wall caps which will be highly visible, it’s been my experience that window frames hardly ever get a second glance once they are up. Getting them close in appearance (even if they don’t quite match the built ins) but with a clear coat product that will stand up to severe UV abuse, is, IMO, a more than satisfactory goal.


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## RH

woodcoyote said:


> First off, good job on the staining. I think once you hit them with the clear it'll look sharp.
> 
> Let me clear a few things up for you:
> *1.)* You can skip the step of sealing before toning, not necessary.
> Good practice? Yah. Does it help? Somewhat. Just remember we're in the business of finishing so we can get paid, anything you can do to become efficient will help you.
> 
> Just stain it,load your toner, and go. Quick scuff sand of the toner coat and apply 2 coats of top-coat finish with sanding in between. Done.
> 
> *2.)* When you tone you want to use an HVLP setup. *Period*. It can be done with an airless but you really have to know what your doing and your results are probably going to suck. You just don't have so much control. Why?
> Here's an example:
> Airless spray around 1,000 psi and up.
> HVLP sprays at around 10psi + or - a few.
> 
> That should tell you a lot right there.
> 
> Edit:
> Another example:
> Spray patterns for airless are fans. That can only be controlled by changing the tip size.
> 
> Spray patterns for HVLP guns can be controlled at the gun, including a round pattern. The round pattern is a life safer.
> 
> *3.)* Top coats should always be applied with airless. It can be done with HVLP but you won't get your film build and your overall finish will be much better with an airless. It'll give you the mils you need and it's a ton faster.
> 
> Hope that helps some.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


I agree about the value of an HVLP in doing this work. I bought mine originally for applying acrylic enamels to doors only to find out it sucked at doing that. It then sat on a shelf for a few years until we started doing more cabinet refinishing work. Now it is an invaluable part of my spray arsenal.


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## woodcoyote

RH said:


> I agree about the value of an HVLP in doing this work. I bought mine originally for applying acrylic enamels to doors only to find out it sucked at doing that. It then sat on a shelf for a few years until we started doing more cabinet refinishing work. Now it is an invaluable part of my spray arsenal.


Another use I've found that an HVLP can do very well is in relation to metal work. 

Granted, you have to thin the material...but, spraying rails/spindles, detail work...hard to beat. Gives you that factory finish. 

Airless puts too much product out and the chances that you'll have runs is just so much higher than with an HVLP which dries almost instantly once its on. Can't beat it.


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## RH

I’ve also had good success using one to spray oil based products. Again, thinning is required but I feel doing so doesn’t quite ruin the product’s integrity as much as thinning down a water based product does. At least that’s what I keep telling myself.


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## PNW Painter

All the wood sills were installed by a finish carpenter and the cabinet shop didn't have any involvement with that work. 

I spent quite a bit of time sanding all the sills, but it can be tough to see mill marks in raw wood and the project has a tight deadline so I could only allot so much time for sanding. 

What really bugged me was that the carpenter only eased the edges of some of the sills and other trim that was installed. How hard is it to run a router over everything before it's installed? A good 4-6 hrs was spent easing the edges on all the trim. 


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## Sn0man

Woodco said:


> Why are you using sand sealer before the stain?


Rookie mistake.


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## PNW Painter

I'd really like to know more about the difference between a sealer and a wash coat and what applications they're intended for.

Earlier, @Technogod asked about solid content of the sealer, but I wasn't exactly sure how that effected the stain. Can I assume that a higher amount of solids means that the wood won't absorb as much of the stain?


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## RH

As I’ve always understood it, softer woods (like pine and fir) will absorb stains unevenly due to differences in the porosity of the wood. Harder woods will not do so as much. A sealer will be absorbed more into the softer wood and seal it so it absorb the stain more like the harder areas therefore giving a more uniform (non-blotchy) look. 

From what I’ve gathered reading from others here, the concept of using a sealer is a pretty uniform practice and far from being a rookie mistake. The valid debate seems to be more around what to use as a sealer; a store purchased variety or one you create yourself.


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## woodcoyote

Technogod said:


> .Every wood has a different reaction to stain and you need to adjust the solid ratio accordingly.


*RH*. There's your answer as far as if you should use a store bought or a personal concoction. The correct answer is....make your own. Because you have to adjust the ratios. 




Technogod said:


> you have to know the behavior of your animal and tame as it should be. since there is not a book for taming it is all about individual choice and ways.This is mine and some masters who holds the flag in finishing industry(Jeff jewitt,Paul synder e.t.c.)


Good call. That's exactly what I prescribe, teach, live, and work by...situational painting. 

I've spoken with Jeff personally several times and he's a good guy, definitely knows his stuff along with Bob Flexner. I'd say Bob probably knows more than Jeff, but both are masters of the craft regardless. Seeing how Jeff does some of his stuff is what lead me to creating my own witchery. 

Game day is easier when you've already been there, done that, in practice.


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