# applying polycrylic



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Sort of a DIY question but I am working at home on a coffee table. Stripped and stained and ready for poly. put 4 coats on , sanding in between with 220, used a good oil brush. Not real happy with the results,( kind of streaky) so went and got a 3/8 4 inch ( I thought mico fiber) cover and tried that. Welllllll, how about 10 million or so little bubbles? Figured maybe they would dry down, NOT.Just got done sanding down THAT mess and was wondering is this the place for a crap foam cover??:blink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You might just try it. Use the widest you can find and don't press down too hard when applying or you might get bubbles with it as well. Also, you will get thin spots so set up a work light so it's shining across the surface towards you.

For larger surface I usually like using my HVLP for applying this product.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Sort of a DIY question but I am working at home on a coffee table. Stripped and stained and ready for poly. put 4 coats on , sanding in between with 220, used a good oil brush. Not real happy with the results,( kind of streaky) so went and got a 3/8 4 inch ( I thought mico fiber) cover and tried that. Welllllll, how about 10 million or so little bubbles? Figured maybe they would dry down, NOT.Just got done sanding down THAT mess and was wondering is this the place for a crap foam cover??:blink:


Foam cover...but don't let it roll. That's a trick I borrowed from the Gougeon Brothers/West System Epoxy people. For epoxy top coats, they suggest slicing a foam cover into several arcs and holding that applicator with a pair of vice grips. Basically, that makes a 9" foam applicator pad. We've also had reasonable luck with mohair paint pads. 

In any case, for table tops and other large flats, we figure that the water-borne Polys are going to need buffing out at the end. We start wet sanding with soapy water and wet/dry paper, 320-600 to start. Then we work our way up to 1500-2000 and then switch to auto polishing/buffing compounds, Meguiar's seems to be a widely available brand.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Believe it or not I have had many painters tell me they have used those cheap diy pad painters with Polyacrylic and they work well. Kind of along the same lines as the cut foam roller. I would also think a high density foam roller would work well.( the white ones, not the black ones. Compare them and you'll see what I mean.)

I know minnywax recommends a pad painter for their w/r floor poly.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Believe it or not I have had many painters tell me they have used those cheap diy pad painters with Polyacrylic and they work well. Kind of along the same lines as the cut foam roller. I would also think a high density foam roller would work well.( the white ones, not the black ones. Compare them and you'll see what I mean.)
> 
> I know minnywax recommends a pad painter for their w/r floor poly.[/QUOTE]
> 
> yea, I used one for my floors but this table top is only like 2 1/2 by 4 feet, thanks, I will have a go with the white foam cover in the morning


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> Foam cover...but don't let it roll. That's a trick I borrowed from the Gougeon Brothers/West System Epoxy people. For epoxy top coats, they suggest slicing a foam cover into several arcs and holding that applicator with a pair of vice grips. Basically, that makes a 9" foam applicator pad. We've also had reasonable luck with mohair paint pads.
> 
> In any case, for table tops and other large flats, we figure that the water-borne Polys are going to need buffing out at the end. We start wet sanding with soapy water and wet/dry paper, 320-600 to start. Then we work our way up to 1500-2000 and then switch to auto polishing/buffing compounds, Meguiar's seems to be a widely available brand.


you kiddin me that sounds like WORK, this is my own damn table:whistling2:


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

chrisn said:


> you kiddin me that sounds like WORK, this is my own damn table:whistling2:


The extremely simplified version of all that is to buff it down with a piece of smooth cardboard after its cured. I can't ever seem to get WB polly to smooth out like I want it to without spraying either.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

The only waterborne poly I have found that doesn't get small air bubbles in the dried finish is Richards brand. Dries clear and very slick just like a true oil.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> you kiddin me that sounds like WORK, this is my own damn table:whistling2:


Think of it as a show piece. It'll look so good, other people will want to hire you!


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Like Jmays said with cardboard, or like an older gentleman once showed me, use the back side of that 220.

Meguiars polishing pads work great too, but if you're like me..once the bubbles are out, it's good enough for my house. And toss that waterborne poly when you're done..some things cant hold a candle to oil finishes, and the poly substitute is one of them, in my opinion.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I've had success with these covers in the 1/4" size. My SW store does not stock the 6" frame for some reason, I have to get the frame from Lowe's.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Sorry, why were you not using oil? The size of that table lends itself nicely to a good brushed finish. 

Also, did you notice the bubbles while rolling or after you stopped? I've never rolled it, but I have noticed bubbles when brushing faster than I should. Just had to slooooow down. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

One of the huge advantages of waterborne finishes like this: they are water clear. We started using them mainly over decorative finishes to avoid the amber cast. For pieces that are really light woods, like unstained maple, they can be just the ticket.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks to all, probably should have gone with an oil but this is what I had. The bubbles(?) where there immediately but there were so many, I thought they would level out, they did not. I will go with a foam cover in a little while and report back

PS maybe even a pic!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Proalliance coatings said:
> 
> 
> > Believe it or not I have had many painters tell me they have used those cheap diy pad painters with Polyacrylic and they work well. Kind of along the same lines as the cut foam roller. I would also think a high density foam roller would work well.( the white ones, not the black ones. Compare them and you'll see what I mean.)
> ...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Thanks to all, probably should have gone with an oil but this is what I had. The bubbles(?) where there immediately but there were so many, I thought they would level out, they did not. I will go with a foam cover in a little while and report back
> 
> PS maybe even a pic!



Can we also get a pic of you throwing the frame across the room if it doesn't work?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> One of the huge advantages of waterborne finishes like this: they are water clear. We started using them mainly over decorative finishes to avoid the amber cast. For pieces that are really light woods, like unstained maple, they can be just the ticket.


Some of my carpenter/painters swear by the w/b ones for a good looking finish. No idea how they pull it off, but I had to stock it just because they were asking for it so much.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Gough said:


> Foam cover...but don't let it roll. That's a trick I borrowed from the Gougeon Brothers/West System Epoxy people. For epoxy top coats, they suggest slicing a foam cover into several arcs and holding that applicator with a pair of vice grips. Basically, that makes a 9" foam applicator pad. We've also had reasonable luck with mohair paint pads.


I take a 9" roller cage and pull out one of the wires and wrap it around the frame. That keeps it from spinning and you can load up a nice 3/4" lamby (for stains).


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Shouldn't this be in the diy section? 

I would've sprayed the finish. With so many nooks and cranies the spray would've covered all of that


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

journeymanPainter said:


> Shouldn't this be in the diy section?
> 
> I would've sprayed the finish. With so many nooks and cranies the spray would've covered all of that


That has been addressed and I don't own a sprayer


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Well the foam thing worked marginally better, still not real happy, even after the cardboard trick.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Still getting bubbles or something else? How many coats? Looks pretty good in the pics but then I know they can be deceiving.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

If the main problem is seeing "brush" strokes it's because it's drying too fast. I was taught when using water based poly's to do it in a cool humid environment. Even going so far as to wetting the floor with a little water to add to the humidity and keep the dust down. As soon as it's dry to the touch bring up the heat to quicken the cure time.

Also, make sure you're applying it heavy enough to aid in the leveling.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

doctors11 said:


> If the main problem is seeing "brush" strokes it's because it's drying too fast. I was taught when using water based poly's to do it in a cool humid environment. Even going so far as to wetting the floor with a little water to add to the humidity and keep the dust down. As soon as it's dry to the touch bring up the heat to quicken the cure time.
> 
> Also, make sure you're applying it heavy enough to aid in the leveling.


And that can be an issue if using the foam applicators.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Chris, the NWS says it's 50 F with an RH of 89% right now, so just apply the next coat outside.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Poly junk and doesn't hold up well either none do.... I've used probably 10 different ones they all suck.. and none hold up either like an oil. I like the amber tone myself. Stay Clear by BM isn't bad , Zara makes a decent WB but again nothing like an oil.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Can I sand the hell out of the water based and apply an oil?

I believe you all have hit the drying too fast thing for sure, I am doing this in the warmest part of the basement.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

chrisn said:


> Can I sand the hell out of the water based and apply an oil?
> 
> I believe you all have hit the drying too fast thing for sure, I am doing this in the warmest part of the basement.


Isn't putting floetrol in it an option? Sorry I'm chiming in late, hope it's going good Chrisn. 

I have been brushing some stays clear lately with good success, no floetrol but I think it can be added.

I absolutely love a hand rubbed oil poly method on raw wood. Thin down oil poly 50%, and wipe on wipe in, sand in while wet, wipe off in less than 5 minutes.
Then just keeping adding coats every 2 hours or so. It comes glass smooth, but I have wondered if this works over a stain or will it pull the stain....


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

ridesarize said:


> Isn't putting floetrol in it an option? Sorry I'm chiming in late, hope it's going good Chrisn.
> 
> I have been brushing some stays clear lately with good success, no floetrol but I think it can be added.
> 
> ...


don't know, is it? can anyone comment on adding the oil on top, if I sand the hell out of it?:blink:


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

I don't see why oil wouldn't work on top if you sand it smooth with 220. Whether it not it will look as good as it would if the first coat had been oil, I'm not sure. 

Old Masters poly is great stuff.

Rides - How do you sand a wet coat of poly? And what is the benefit?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

804 Paint said:


> I don't see why oil wouldn't work on top if you sand it smooth with 220. Whether it not it will look as good as it would if the first coat had been oil, I'm not sure.
> 
> Old Masters poly is great stuff.
> 
> Rides - How do you sand a wet coat of poly? And what is the benefit?


Wet sanding the thinned poly is like wet-sanding oil finishes (like Watco), the finish itself acts as the lubricant and mixes with the fine sawdust. That "sludge" fills the wood pores and you get an amazingly smooth finish. When we do that with Danish oil, we work our way up to finer and finer grits, generally to at least 600.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Good related info here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-9vCSJWDQ

There's also a part 2.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

...and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9LOtYFMb-A


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Gough said:


> Wet sanding the thinned poly is like wet-sanding oil finishes (like Watco), the finish itself acts as the lubricant and mixes with the fine sawdust. That "sludge" fills the wood pores and you get an amazingly smooth finish. When we do that with Danish oil, we work our way up to finer and finer grits, generally to at least 600.



You said it, except I have heard it called "slurry".


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ridesarize said:


> You said it, except I have heard it called "slurry".


You're right, "slurry" does sound less inelegant. 

In fact, I was teaching a class on wood finishing last week, and distinctly remember using "slurry" when I was talking about this. Doy.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Gough said:


> You're right, "slurry" does sound less inelegant.
> 
> In fact, I was teaching a class on wood finishing last week, and distinctly remember using "slurry" when I was talking about this. Doy.


Ha ha awesome, you da man.


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

The Minwax wb poly is prone to foaming... a defect in my opinion. If your going to stay with an aqueous system, consider w/b urethanes for flooring. Or perhaps spray one of the w/b lacquers in multiple thin coats.

You mentioned you used a good "oil" brush? Hopefully not the china bristle, water will kill them. Chinex would be a better choice there. I have seen excellent results with the W/B urethanes for wood floors that were brushed...i.e. wood stair treads, built in wood benches, etc. The urethanes are tougher... geared for abusive areas.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Gough said:


> Wet sanding the thinned poly is like wet-sanding oil finishes (like Watco), the finish itself acts as the lubricant and mixes with the fine sawdust. That "sludge" fills the wood pores and you get an amazingly smooth finish. When we do that with Danish oil, we work our way up to finer and finer grits, generally to at least 600.


OK…to be clear, you are talking about applying the thinned poly and sanding it while still wet, correct? Not traditional wet sanding as shown in the videos linked in the thread. 

So…when it dries, it's…smooth? Sorry I can't wrap my brain around it!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

804 Paint said:


> OK…to be clear, you are talking about applying the thinned poly and sanding it while still wet, correct? Not traditional wet sanding as shown in the videos linked in the thread.
> 
> So…when it dries, it's…smooth? Sorry I can't wrap my brain around it!


Yeah, sorry. A critical step is to remove the excess after sanding...and treat the poly-soaked rags appropriately.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Update, I got a quart of Minwax, oil modified water based poly, turned the heat off and got a new chinex brush and all is well

Thanks to all:notworthy:


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

chrisn said:


> Can I sand the hell out of the water based and apply an oil?


The question I have about this is how will you remove all of the clear without sanding into and removing some of the stain? I think I would try to sand down enough to remove most of the imperfections and switch to another compatible WB product.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Never has so much accumulated skill and experience been applied to the finishing of such a small surface. Next week I'm gonna' start a thread on how I should stain and finish a wooden light switch cover. Think I can hit three pages? :whistling2:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Update, I got a quart of Minwax, oil modified water based poly, turned the heat off and got a new chinex brush and all is well
> 
> Thanks to all:notworthy:


Quick question for you, because I have seen this hundreds of times. I guess I should have chimed in a little earlier, but did you use the actual Polyacrylic From Minniewax or are you just using the term polyacrylic generically? Because you should have known better than to use Minnie wax, in my opinion. Because next to Behr, I have had more complaints about Thompson's Minwax than any other brand I have ever sold. Polyacrylic amongst the top.

Also, and I probably am stirring up a hornets nest here, but was that can of waterbourne poly shaken or mechanically agitated at any point? You should NEVER, EVER, EVER shake any waterbourne clear finish! And the experts at most paint stores will happily shake it for you! But, you will NEVER, EVER, EVER get all the tiny bubbles out! If any of those "sales" people would ever take the time to read a spec sheet, they would know that. Unless they are selling MINNIEWAX or any of the other DIY grade w/r clears. JUST DON'T DO IT OR ALLOW ANY ONE TO DO IT!

I have fought this battle over and over again, even to the point of refusing to do it. It isn't worth a few dollars of profit, and I would rather risk losing a customer than have to pay to have something stripped and recoated. 

Unfortunately, when you buy from most retailers, you have no idea if something might have been shaken previously and returned to the shelf. And those bubbles would still be there, waiting for the next unsuspecting customer.

Also, the flatteners that settle out can be very difficult to get stirred up. But even then, NEVER, EVER,EVER shake it! Turn the can upside down for a while, preferably over night, than stir it. And don't stir it in a frenzy, you're not whipping cream. Although the process is very similar to what happens when you agitate w/r clears. 

In fact you should refer to the spec sheet whenever you use a catalyzed or pre-catalyzed clear as well, because you can have a similar issue, especially with conversion varnishes.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not saying Minwax products are good, but I have a few pros who ask for Helmsman's enough that I wouldn't get rid of it.

I had one of my coworkers argue with me about shaking the stuff- she thought it wouldn't hurt anything... I knew it would. She shook it anyways. Sigh.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Woodford said:


> I'm not saying Minwax products are good, but I have a few pros who ask for Helmsman's enough that I wouldn't get rid of it.
> 
> I had one of my coworkers argue with me about shaking the stuff- she thought it wouldn't hurt anything... I knew it would. She shook it anyways. Sigh.


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85V1Xewv20k


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Wellllllllll, yes it was Minwax, but it was NOT shaken ( at least not by me) all the bubbles originally happened when I tried a 4 in mini roller ( mistake!). Also I do believe the product is most likely right down there with the dreaded bear. As the Who said, "I won't get fooled again"


I will say that after switching to the oil modified version and following all the advise here that it turned out great.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Because next to Behr, I have had more complaints about Thompson's Minwax than any other brand I have ever sold. Polyacrylic amongst the top.
> 
> NEVER, EVER, EVER shake any waterbourne clear finish!


Agreed! And you should never *shake solvent based* clear coats either.

And regarding the Thompson's and minwax complaints you talk about, you never give explicit detail. Please elaborate? And are the complaints from pros or DIY'ers? Thanks.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

To answer the question about floetrol: yes you can add it to a waterborne clear. For whatever reason, I prefer xim extender in clears but it's all compatable. We've also used it with success in Zar Ultramax, an oil-modified.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

GMack said:


> To answer the question about floetrol: yes you can add it to a waterborne clear. For whatever reason, I prefer xim extender in clears but it's all compatable. We've also used it with success in Zar Ultramax, an oil-modified.



NOW you tell me:blink:


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

*Shaking Poly*

I agree completely that any sort of *gloss* poly should never be shaken, only stirred gently. 

However, any other sheen should be shaken as the matting agents in satin/semi finishes can settle out and aren't always easily reincorporated by stirring alone.


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