# Deck Debate



## Caedmom (May 22, 2017)

Two paint contractors have given me differing opinions on redoing an old worn deck. Currently my client's deck has a failing reddish-brown solid stain on it. Both contractors agree that deck should be power washed, sanded and cleaned. Here's where the debate comes in... One says to apply 2 coats of solid stain. The other suggests using and undercoat primer first. Now I'm inclined to veto the primer because it is my understanding that stains, even solid stains, need to penetrate the wood. The current product we are considering is SuperDeck Solid Stain. I should also note that the color will be changed to a lighter stone color (floor) and a darker warm grey (verticals). Would that be the reason for the primer? Any thoughts/opinions on this?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

What specific primer is being suggested and for what purpose? 

I'm not aware of any primer that would be suitable for use with the Super Deck acrylic solid stain. It's self priming. 


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Maybe it's a pre stain treatment to help even out the stain.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Interesting. The superdeck waterborne 100% acrylic solid stain is actually a film forming coating. Up to 2.5 mils DFT. Much like a paint. Maybe that's why a primer is suggested. I'm going to read more.

TDS states it can be used over previously painted surfaces.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Interesting. The superdeck waterborne 100% acrylic solid stain is actually a film forming coating. Up to 2.5 mils DFT. Much like a paint. Maybe that's why a primer is suggested. I'm going to read more.
> 
> TDS states it can be used over previously painted surfaces.




The OP didn't specify if the product under consideration was the Super Deck %100 acrylic formula sold at SW, or the 9600 line listed under Super Deck brand. 

I think your thinking of the former, and I the latter. 

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777355107/

https://www.superdeck.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/9600-Series-100-VOC-PDG.pdf

Still, unless we're talking about a special cases of tannin bleed, I'm not sure what kind of primer would be advisable. 

In the case of the former, Something like Mad Dog might be a good idea. With the latter though, it wouldn't work since those types of primers are generally formulated for %100 acrylic only. The 9600 line is alkyd fortified. 


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## Caedmom (May 22, 2017)

It would be Superde


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

No, no, and no.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Maybe the primer suggested, is Restore. https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...ST-16_Restore_Deck_Start_Wood_Primer_TDS.ashx


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Maybe the primer suggested, is Restore. https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...ST-16_Restore_Deck_Start_Wood_Primer_TDS.ashx


Hey that Restore is good stuff! They've only been sued once so far! (and lost btw. Paying out right now as a matter of fact. No media coverage though......you know....trump and all.)


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## Caedmom (May 22, 2017)

The HO likes the colors on SuperDeck from SW. We looked at Arborcoat from BM and they said Mad Dog primer could be used with it. But I haven't heard many good things about Arborcoat. In any event, would the contractor be suggesting a primer so he could avoid having to remove the old stain? Can you use a solid stain (different color) directly over an existing solid stain without removing it first? I do not think it will be an easy task to remove the existing solid stain. If there is a better, readily available solid stain product, I'm happy to run it by the homeowners.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Sand off existing coating since it's failing. Have your painter take it all down to good, solid, stable wood. No need for primer. Pro Luxe makes a killer solid stain called Rubbol. 
It us superior to arborcoat. When done correctly it will last. Of course all decks need to be kept up but this stuff is the sh#t. You can touch up spots easily if you were to have some weak spots still for some reason, or handrail cap flakes after a few years etc.
Do not prime, period. 


This is your own deck though isn't it?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

You can tell in the photos that the wood is very degraded, decayed, cracked. So you can only hope for the best in that situation. The state of the wood boards will cause most any product to fail quicker than usual.

But Rubbol is good stuff. If the railings are in better condition you could do a cleaning and coat over it without sanding, or maybe do a scuff sand.. The handrail cap usually benefits from the sanding though.


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## Caedmom (May 22, 2017)

Nope, not my deck. But close, a neighbor's a couple streets over. I'm a designer and usually stick to interiors. Been hired to propose colors (easy) and coordinate with contractors (not so easy). Wasn't expecting the two contacts I have to recommend different approaches. Wanted to get some add'l feedback so I could go back and speak intelligently to the "primer" guy. His timing is better so ideally I'd like to see if we could work with him. I've heard of ProLuxe (used to be Sikkens, right?), but I cannot seem to find a local dealer for the product. We have a tight schedule, so I need to go with the best option I can get my hands on. I had SuperDeck Semi on my old home and it looked great, no experience with solid stains though. There you have it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Caedmom said:


> Nope, not my deck. But close, a neighbor's a couple streets over. I'm a designer and usually stick to interiors. Been hired to propose colors (easy) and coordinate with contractors (not so easy). Wasn't expecting the two contacts I have to recommend different approaches. Wanted to get some add'l feedback so I could go back and speak intelligently to the "primer" guy. His timing is better so ideally I'd like to see if we could work with him. I've heard of ProLuxe (used to be Sikkens, right?), but I cannot seem to find a local dealer for the product. We have a tight schedule, so I need to go with the best option I can get my hands on. I had SuperDeck Semi on my old home and it looked great, no experience with solid stains though. There you have it.


Since it appears it's not common to prime a wood deck before staining, I'd contact the person who recommended the primer and find out what the product is. If he sounds any way unsure of it, strike that process.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> You can tell in the photos that the wood is very degraded, decayed, cracked. So you can only hope for the best in that situation. The state of the wood boards will cause most any product to fail quicker than usual.


Sadly, that's pretty much what all PTP looks like around here after even a couple of years.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Hey that Restore is good stuff! They've only been sued once so far! (and lost btw. Paying out right now as a matter of fact. No media coverage though......you know....trump and all.)


Restore Deck Start Wood Primer was not among the Rustoleum products that the $9M class action suit was filed against. But the following were:

"The products included in the Rust-Oleum class action settlement include Deck & Concrete Restore, Deck Restore, Concrete Restore and Restore 10X."


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Restore Deck Start Wood Primer was not among the Rustoleum products that the $9M class action suit was filed against. But the following were:
> 
> "The products included in the Rust-Oleum class action settlement include Deck & Concrete Restore, Deck Restore, Concrete Restore and Restore 10X."


so we trust the product they came out with after the fact to "fix" the problem? That's makes sense.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> so we trust the product they came out with after the fact to "fix" the problem? That's makes sense.


Call it damage control, product opportunity, or good business sense. The fact is, a settlement was agreed upon for the defective products. Case closed.

Should Porsche be penalized because VW lied about emissions? The Porsche clearly didn't lose it's value or performance because of that debacle.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Pro Luxe is available at Benjamin Moore, Miller paints,, and HD, to name a few. Probably can he found at a local lumber or hardware store too.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Call it damage control, product opportunity, or good business sense. The fact is, a settlement was agreed upon for the defective products. Case closed.
> 
> Should Porsche be penalized because VW lied about emissions? The Porsche clearly didn't lose it's value or performance because of that debacle.


Not the same thing. It's that's like saying every Rustoleum product line should be sued because of Restore. It's not the products, IT'S THE ENTIRE CONCEPT! Wrapping exterior wood in what is essentially plastic wrap is NOT a good idea. And there WILL be suits against all of the other manufacturers before long. I've seen where people are trying to institute lawsuits against Behr, Olympic, and several other companies because their deck "restore" type products have done the same thing. The big issue is that these companies continued to sell the products knowing that they were causing major damage to decks. That is what really pushed the Restore verdict. It's going to happen, just be patient.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Not the same thing. It's that's like saying every Rustoleum product line should be sued because of Restore. It's not the products, IT'S THE ENTIRE CONCEPT! Wrapping exterior wood in what is essentially plastic wrap is NOT a good idea. And there WILL be suits against all of the other manufacturers before long. I've seen where people are trying to institute lawsuits against Behr, Olympic, and several other companies because their deck "restore" type products have done the same thing. The big issue is that these companies continued to sell the products knowing that they were causing major damage to decks. That is what really pushed the Restore verdict. It's going to happen, just be patient.


But with everything becoming low VOC and waterborne, or a blend of a modified Oil and acrylic stain, the consequences will be that all stains will be a type of film forming treatment and subsequently subject to failure.

So maybe substrate specific primers/treatment for wood decking as a part of a deck finishing process, will render straight stains, whether oil or waterborne, a thing of the past.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> But with everything becoming low VOC and waterborne, or a blend of a modified Oil and acrylic stain, the consequences will be that all stains will be a type of film forming treatment and subsequently subject to failure.
> 
> So maybe substrate specific primers/treatment for wood decking as a part of a deck finishing process, will render straight stains, whether oil or waterborne, a thing of the past.


California Storm System Alkyd primer. Made specifically for decks. VOC compliant nationwide. Higher perm rating than wood. It exists. People don't hear about it because Cali doesn't have the marketing money that SW,PPG,HD,Lowes's,Menard's, etc has. And people don't believe anything but what those companies say about stains anyway. They're the biggies so they must be telling the truth and not ripping people off, right?

Remember, if you want someone to believe you, make sure you tell a big lie and tell everyone that you can. That's how you sell to the average consumer. Thus we have super deck restoring finishes and super duper paint and primers. When all they really are is a marketing scam that they will never be held accountable for.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> California Storm System Alkyd primer. Made specifically for decks. VOC compliant nationwide. Higher perm rating than wood. It exists. People don't hear about it because Cali doesn't have the marketing money that SW,PPG,HD,Lowes's,Menard's, etc has. And people don't believe anything but what those companies say about stains anyway. They're the biggies so they must be telling the truth and not ripping people off, right?
> 
> Remember, if you want someone to believe you, make sure you tell a big lie and tell everyone that you can. That's how you sell to the average consumer. Thus we have super deck restoring finishes and super duper paint and primers. When all they really are is a marketing scam that they will never be held accountable for.


It's not the consumer's fault that a product manufacturer doesn't have the resources, wear with all, or strategic plan to reach a wider audience. 

But you basically supported my point about how deck finishing systems are now including a primer in the finish system.


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