# Police Detail



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Has any one had to hire a detail police officer? We may have to. Job we looked at peak is over 40', house is very close to the busy street.

I had to check into one in the next town over, might have to shut down one lane on route 1.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Ok after talking to a cop friend we do need a detail. This will add a huge cost to the job now.

House is lead paint, just a scrape but it's over 40' so it's not a days work, more like a week just on that side.

We need a cop and a cop car.

My friend said if any one tries working on that side of the home with no detail will be shut down and fined. It's a main road and where this house is the road is pretty tight.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Ok after talking to a cop friend we do need a detail. This will add a huge cost to the job now.
> 
> House is lead paint, just a scrape but it's over 40' so it's not a days work, more like a week just on that side.
> 
> ...


Get your signage cleaned and presentable. Great opportunity for exposure. As you know, Rte 1 is busy.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

It's not a big deal.
Just tell HO the daily rate and that it's their burden.
Bigger issue is ensuring that a detail is available when you need it.
With all the road construction going on there's no guarantee they'll be available on your timeline.

That said, I'd use pump jacks for that.
Stack two 24' poles, hang a big tarp off the top plank as vertical containment and forego the need for the cops.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

When I was in telecommunications, i shut lanes down daily. Of course, there are state laws identifying how far your signage has to be placed on either side of your project. Cones as well.

Your cop friend may be right, but not necessarily. Sometimes a oermit is required. I think a police detail can be circumvented with enough planning.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

What is a police detail going to do? Just go to your city hall and request a lane closure. Rent cones and signs.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

daArch said:


> Get your signage cleaned and presentable. Great opportunity for exposure. As you know, Rte 1 is busy.


Put the signs up before and after the police detail. During the times when/if "you" are creating a traffic jam, you don't necessarily want it easy for everyone to see which specific contractor they are cursing at.

And of course they won't be cursing at the HO. The road rage idiots will blame you.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Here in BC we have to buy a permit to shut the lane down for X amount of days, and working times.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

epretot said:


> When I was in telecommunications, i shut lanes down daily. Of course, there are state laws identifying how far your signage has to be placed on either side of your project. Cones as well.
> 
> Your cop friend may be right, but not necessarily. Sometimes a oermit is required. I think a police detail can be circumvented with enough planning.


Cones or doughnuts seem to work extremely well.:whistling2:


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> What is a police detail going to do? Just go to your city hall and request a lane closure. Rent cones and signs.


MA state law.
If working in high foot traffic area they are sometimes required for sidewalk closures.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

dan-o said:


> MA state law.
> If working in high foot traffic area they are sometimes required for sidewalk closures.


What do they do?

California even downtown San Diego, permit to close a lane and sidewalk, signs and cones, thats all it is needed


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Here in NY I would have to sub it out. No cop needed but the insurance is a killer. No insurance or (DOT#). No permit. That is if you need to close a lane.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

dan-o said:


> MA state law.
> If working in high foot traffic area they are sometimes required for sidewalk closures.


I was told that about an hour ago. School zone (Schools about a half mile away) and closing a sidewalk and half a lane. We have to have one. Plus it's a corner lot.

I still need to pull permits, since it's not road construction I have to leave sidewalks passable from 6:30-7:30 then again between 2 and 3. Regardless if we use ladders, lifts or pumps.

I know the cost is on the home owners not us.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CD,

I was just wondering if you really need the hassle of this job. You seem really busy, so why not just let this one go?


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> What do they do?


They'll shut you down.
BS but it's a PD union thing sold as 'public safety'.
Cop friends of mine get OT pay equal to/exceeding their standard pay by working these details.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Vertical containment not an option here Dave? Might be a PITA, but has to be cheaper than cop detail.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

dan-o said:


> They'll shut you down.
> BS but it's a PD union thing sold as 'public safety'.
> Cop friends of mine get OT pay equal to/exceeding their standard pay by working these details.


Shhh don't tell California


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

SemiproJohn said:


> CD,
> 
> I was just wondering if you really need the hassle of this job. You seem really busy, so why not just let this one go?


I am willing to bet we will be out of their price range. I'm not going to just toss a high number I will give them the real price. This one may have to be scheduled for next season other wise we will pass.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Vertical containment not an option here Dave? Might be a PITA, but has to be cheaper than cop detail.


Even with that there is lead paint so I would need a detail for sidewalk closure during school start and end times. Plus the height, it's close to 50', 4 stories plus tall basement.

I drive by this house a bunch any ways, since looking at it I have thought of different ways to get around a detail. The town/cities bi laws prevent that.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

dan-o said:


> They'll shut you down.
> BS but it's a PD union thing sold as 'public safety'.
> Cop friends of mine get OT pay equal to/exceeding their standard pay by working these details.


Since they changed that law for flaggers I have only seen 2 non police flaggers. Dead end streets guess who. Detail cop. They have us by the nuts on this. We have to hire cops if we need a detail, hell NH and most parts of the country I know would be easier to close a road. Just not in MA.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Are you allowed to scrape a Lead home?
Wouldn't think so. That might be a bigger problem than blocking half of a sidewalk


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

premierpainter said:


> Are you allowed to scrape a Lead home?
> Wouldn't think so. That might be a bigger problem than blocking half of a sidewalk


Yes you can, if you go by the rules.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

premierpainter said:


> Are you allowed to scrape a Lead home?
> Wouldn't think so. That might be a bigger problem than blocking half of a sidewalk


If your licensed or certified in either EPA or your states rules. Follow the rules and it's all good. Don't follow it's not good. I m meeting the lead inspector and a police officer there tomorrow to go over details and RRP changes.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> If your licensed or certified in either EPA or your states rules. Follow the rules and it's all good. Don't follow it's not good. I m meeting the lead inspector and a police officer there tomorrow to go over details and RRP changes.


BTW, Dave, I am assuming that all this research you are doing will be compensated for in your bid. You seem to be very conscientious and thorough with your preparatory research , just hope you ain't doing it for free.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

premierpainter said:


> Are you allowed to scrape a Lead home?
> Wouldn't think so. That might be a bigger problem than blocking half of a sidewalk


RRP is one thing; OSHA 1926.62, Lead in Construction, is something else.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Bill, I do add the time to the estimate. Weather we get the job is a different story.

I was taught to be as thorough as I can be.

If it was one house up or down we would only have to deal with closing the sidewalk and not the street. No parking zone in front makes it tricky.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Bill, I do add the time to the estimate. Weather we get the job is a different story.
> 
> I was taught to be as thorough as I can be.
> 
> If it was one house up or down we would only have to deal with closing the sidewalk and not the street. No parking zone in front makes it tricky.


I figured you would add appropriate costs to the estimate. That's one thing we need to make sure the less experienced here understand. Make sure we are compensated for all the time we spend driving our businesses.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> I figured you would add appropriate costs to the estimate. That's one thing we need to make sure the less experienced here understand. Make sure we are compensated for all the time we spend driving our businesses.


All of this stuff can add hours. I'm already 3 hours of time into this and have yet to even type the estimate.

Some would thing this is nit picking, anal, or asking why would some one charge for this.

This is our time we are spending on the customer estimates, the calls, research and so on. We need to make sure we are compensated one way or another.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

from what you guys say about lead regulations it almost seems like it would be easier to just nail on new siding and forget about the problem for all eternity...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> All of this stuff can add hours. I'm already 3 hours of time into this and have yet to even type the estimate.
> 
> Some would thing this is nit picking, anal, or asking why would some one charge for this.
> 
> This is our time we are spending on the customer estimates, the calls, research and so on. We need to make sure we are compensated one way or another.


ABSOLUTELY

And those who have not understood this or refuse to price accordingly due to a belief they must stay "competitive" are those that will not be in business in three years - or so burned out they will be seeking medical or psychiatric care - or in the care of their state for many years, if not life.


BTW, I posed the initial question hoping you would answer exactly as you have so as to drive the point home. We all see you doing thorough and meticulous work and I wanted to make sure appropriate people understood you ain't doing all the leg work for free. :thumbsup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> ABSOLUTELY
> 
> And those who have not understood this or refuse to price accordingly due to a belief they must stay "competitive" are those that will not be in business in three years - or so burned out they will be seeking medical or psychiatric care - or in the care of their state for many years, if not life.
> 
> ...


But then again all of this could be for nothing if we don't get the job. 

Talking with the HO, well 1 of the 3 condo owners I know just by thinking of the work involved painting and prep will be over 20 grand. This place is pretty rough.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> But then again all of this could be for nothing if we don't get the job.
> 
> Talking with the HO, well 1 of the 3 condo owners I know just by thinking of the work involved painting and prep will be over 20 grand. This place is pretty rough.


And the way out of that is to average your "non-productive" times and build it into your cost of doing business for all jobs.

The way I approached it was to figure the estimator always gets paid, whether the job is secured or not. If I had hired a dedicated estimator, his/her pay would be a built in CODB. Same with the bookkeeper, secretary, gofer, etc. All those people's wages were part of my CODB. Don't matter who does the work, the person gotta be paid.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

JourneymanBrian said:


> from what you guys say about lead regulations it almost seems like it would be easier to just nail on new siding and forget about the problem for all eternity...


exactly:thumbsup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

JourneymanBrian said:


> from what you guys say about lead regulations it almost seems like it would be easier to just nail on new siding and forget about the problem for all eternity...


If they over lay the siding it's good. If they have to remove the siding according to the RRp rules each board needs to be wrapped in plastic then lowered and tossed. I have yet to see a carpenter even wrap a stack of lead paint covered boards. All around here never do it.

Vinyl siding I am willing to bet will be close in price.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

amazing... even if youre not sanding them you have to wrap them up when removing?

At this rate, it makes me wonder why they havent mandated gas masks for filling up your tank at the gas station yet...


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

JourneymanBrian said:


> amazing... even if youre not sanding them you have to wrap them up when removing?
> 
> At this rate, it makes me wonder why they havent mandated gas masks for filling up your tank at the gas station yet...


It's still disturbing the lead paint.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

yes, but the stuffs not Asbestos...

Its just interesting to methat here in Germany, where security regulations pretty strict, there is not really any hubub about lead paint.

yes, lead dust and fumes are dangerous, but hardwood dust is also suspected to cause aerious illness, for example.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

JourneymanBrian said:


> yes, but the stuffs not Asbestos...
> 
> Its just interesting to methat here in Germany, where security regulations pretty strict, there is not really any hubub about lead paint.
> 
> yes, lead dust and fumes are dangerous, but hardwood dust is also suspected to cause aerious illness, for example.


With carpenters it's mostly to contain the lead paint chips.

I know the local lead inspectors watch us painters like a hawk. As for carpenters I have only heard of 1 getting fined and shut down.

I see it day in and day out illegal lead paint practice.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

JourneymanBrian said:


> yes, but the stuffs not Asbestos...
> 
> Its just interesting to methat here in Germany, where security regulations pretty strict, there is not really any hubub about lead paint.
> 
> yes, lead dust and fumes are dangerous, but hardwood dust is also suspected to cause aerious illness, for example.


The concern about lead is the permanent brain damage it causes in young children. The other concerns you raise are about the individual performing the task.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

JourneymanBrian said:


> yes, but the stuffs not Asbestos...
> 
> Its just interesting to methat here in Germany, where security regulations pretty strict, there is not really any hubub about lead paint.
> 
> yes, lead dust and fumes are dangerous, but hardwood dust is also suspected to cause aerious illness, for example.


The EU countries started banning Lead in household paints long ago. France started in 1870 and a lot of other countries had followed suit by the 1920's, Germany included, I believe. In the U.S., it was essentially banned in 1977.

A number of reasons, including early legislation, newer housing stock, and training may have helped the problem there. That being said, it still seems to be of some concern. There are a lot of recent studies about lead paint and lead levels in the population.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

yes and using lead is banned for good reasons, but there is no such red tape in scuffing over it and repainting.

If the whole issue is the kids and not the painters' health, why shouldnt a regular painter be able to scuff it and encapsulate it with a repaint?

as i said, coming from Europe, where chlorine-treated chicken from America elicits horror from your average citizen, its interesting that no one worries about their kids chewing lead paint off the doors.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

JourneymanBrian said:


> yes and using lead is banned for good reasons, but there is no such red tape in scuffing over it and repainting.
> 
> If the whole issue is the kids and not the painters' health, why shouldnt a regular painter be able to scuff it and encapsulate it with a repaint?
> 
> as i said, coming from Europe, where chlorine-treated chicken from America elicits horror from your average citizen, its interesting that no one worries about their kids chewing lead paint off the doors.


They might want to start worrying about it.......or soon that chlorinated chicken will be looking pretty tasty to those kids. Not to mention the irradiated lettuce and GMO salmon


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PRC said:


> They might want to start worrying about it.......or soon that chlorinated chicken will be looking pretty tasty to those kids. Not to mention the irradiated lettuce and GMO salmon


The EU seems to have a different approach to some of theses things, like the chicken. The overall approach seems to be that it's better to raise a healthy stock of birds from the beginning than it is to let them get infected at multiple stages along the way and then douse them with bleach to fix the problem.

Talk about Topic Drift! From closing off a street to international trade.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> The EU seems to have a different approach to some of theses things, like the chicken. The overall approach seems to be that it's better to raise a healthy stock of birds from the beginning than it is to let them get infected at multiple stages along the way and then douse them with bleach to fix the problem.
> 
> Talk about Topic Drift! From closing off a street to international trade.


I love Topic Drift! :yes::thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

slinger58 said:


> I love Topic Drift! :yes::thumbup:


considering the geographical scope of this thread, it could be termed "Continental Drift" which can be quite earth shattering and have us quaking in our boots as we make mountains out of molehills, but I think the tidal wave of opposing opinions may cause tectonic shifts in outlooks


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> considering the geographical scope of this thread, it could be termed "Continental Drift" which can be quite earth shattering and have us quaking in our boots as we make mountains out of molehills, but I think the tidal wave of opposing opinions may cause tectonic shifts in outlooks


If that happens Dave will be under the ocean


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> If that happens Dave will be under the ocean


He's capable of rising above all this foolishness :thumbsup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Im trying to figure out if I should keep this derailed or try to bring back on topic lol.

Hey at least we are learning some thing.


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