# Pricing per sqft of wall?



## CNQ (Mar 5, 2010)

In residental, all the pricing is done by the sqft of living area. I'm pricing out some industrial jobs and they want a price per sqft of wall/ceiling etc... Anyone have any suggestions on how to make a take off go quicker and more accurate?

Thanks in advance


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Figure the square footage, then divide by your price including materials. Should give you a cost per foot.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Figure the square footage, then divide by your price including materials. Should give you a cost per foot.


No, that's not correct...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Harry said:


> No, that's not correct...


What am I missing? Did I reverse it?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> What am I missing? Did I reverse it?


Sort of...

Impossible to come up with separate numbers for walls and ceilings based on floor area. Also, it's against the law now to use floor area square footages...pass it on 

But...if one wanted to break the law they could find the square foot area price by dividing the price by the floor area...but not the reverse.

But that's against the law, right?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

CNQ said:


> In residental, all the pricing is done by the sqft of living area. I'm pricing out some industrial jobs and they want a price per sqft of wall/ceiling etc... Anyone have any suggestions on how to make a take off go quicker and more accurate?
> 
> Thanks in advance


There's no magic bullet here.
You need to know how to price by the sf of substrate.
Coming up with these unit prices has absolutely nothing to do with sf floor prices.

Call me tomorrow, after 12:30 eastern time and I'll help you arrive at some workable numbers... 603-645-6700


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Harry said:


> Sort of...
> 
> Impossible to come up with separate numbers for walls and ceilings based on floor area. Also, it's against the law now to use floor area square footages...pass it on
> 
> ...


That's what I was trying to say. He can do the takeoffs of wall/ceiling area. Be the same as I do coming up with a cost per ft materials.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> That's what I was trying to say. He can do the takeoffs of wall/ceiling area. Be the same as I do coming up with a cost per ft materials.


I'm thinking that he may not know how to do this. if he did, I doubt he'd be messing around with floor area numbers.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I took as he wanted a better way to measure wall space. Harry, do you have your own takeoff software?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> I took as he wanted a better way to measure wall space. Harry, do you have your own takeoff software?


I think Harry is right though. The estimating I do is predominantly from blueprints. In my experience, there is really no other way to do it accurately than to get really good at reading plans. I study exterior elevations and then find the corresponding interior spaces. Miss a cathedral ceiling and you are in for a big surprise. I think Harry has referred to degree of difficulty factors coming into play, and all square feet not being created equal. There just really doesnt seem to be a shortcut. Now, if the house is already framed, life just got a whole lot easier to estimate. Measuring in real time is nice.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I think Harry is right though. The estimating I do is predominantly from blueprints. In my experience, there is really no other way to do it accurately than to get really good at reading plans. I study exterior elevations and then find the corresponding interior spaces. Miss a cathedral ceiling and you are in for a big surprise. I think Harry has referred to degree of difficulty factors coming into play, and all square feet not being created equal. There just really doesnt seem to be a shortcut. Now, if the house is already framed, life just got a whole lot easier to estimate. Measuring in real time is nice.


Agree, I have a large detailed print on my desk now, every time I look at it, I see something new!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Agree, I have a large detailed print on my desk now, every time I look at it, I see something new!


Some of our long term projects, the estimating process can take months as info, specs and details keep filtering in, and even so, sometimes that bid package is still not complete as the project commences. 

One thing I do do, is post project job costing where I figure out just for my own information what a 10k sf home cost to paint. Its interesting how no two custom homes of the same size and scope end up costing out the same, or really even very close. I think alot of this is why so many paint contractors get so frustrated when they attempt nc.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Do you do "allowances" at all? 
I got a plan the other day from a builder we do a few spec homes, just the link to the online place where you buy the plans!

Our projects are nowhere near that size, but I often have to "rebid" as details come in or the scope changes mid job too. That Alder job is a good example, it would have been much less to stain and seal it all at once.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

it is also why good gc's are important. Too many are just looking for a base price of $x/sq.ft. and then adding on for custom features.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Do you do "allowances" at all?
> I got a plan the other day from a builder we do a few spec homes, just the link to the online place where you buy the plans!
> 
> Our projects are nowhere near that size, but I often have to "rebid" as details come in or the scope changes mid job too. That Alder job is a good example, it would have been much less to stain and seal it all at once.


Often times we will carry allowance items such as cabinetry or floor finishes or stair treads. Or if there is discussion amongst the design team of some cool idea that is not even in conceptual form yet, I will attach a heavily asterisked allowance. Its nothing I will be held to, and basically just creates a budget spot for something that will be estimated later. Its funny, a couple of times my allowance items turned out to actually be accurate, based on nothing at all.


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## Felan Painting (Jun 24, 2010)

CNQ said:


> In residental, all the pricing is done by the sqft of living area. I'm pricing out some industrial jobs and they want a price per sqft of wall/ceiling etc... Anyone have any suggestions on how to make a take off go quicker and more accurate?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Pricing out the sq ft of living only works if you have done them before . sq ft of living is something builders like to use . We paint walls and ceilings not so much the floor . However , we bid jobs based on the sq ft, of living only because this is what the builder wants, when we get the call. We already have price sets for custom or spec homes based on past work .
Example if home is 4500 sq ft of living we know that the actual sq ft of board will be about 28000 sq ft . Either way the cost for sq ft of living or sq ft of actual surface will be the same cost . Difference is you will bid in whole dollars like $2-$3 per sq ft of living or .30 - .60 for actual surface area. (These are not actual numbers just example.) So when bidding by sq ft of living , everyone should have it based on the actual drywall surface and not the floor sq ft of living , unless you know the actual sq ft of wall and ceiling areas and can do the math to make it work by bidding the sq ft of living . Which is how we bid all work.By Sq ft of living in residential. Once you know what it takes to complete these homes you can fine tune your cost ,and when that builder calls for a fast number you know your bottom line ! Custom or spec!:yes:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> I took as he wanted a better way to measure wall space. Harry, do you have your own takeoff software?


Soon!


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

_Impossible to come up with separate numbers for walls and ceilings based on floor area. Also, it's against the law now to use floor area square footages...pass it on 
_
OK, I do mostly repaints in occuppied homes and square floor feet is a rule of thumb for me as a starting point, but is it really against the law, or am I missing an inside joke?
I just bid a 4056 square foot job and came up with about 13000 sq ft of sheetrock surface to paint, all by looking at plans. Though I did not place a bid using sq ft rate, most guys ask what that rate is.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

A+HomeWork said:


> _Impossible to come up with separate numbers for walls and ceilings based on floor area. Also, it's against the law now to use floor area square footages...pass it on
> _
> OK, I do mostly repaints in occuppied homes and square floor feet is a rule of thumb for me as a starting point, but is it really against the law, or am I missing an inside joke?
> I just bid a 4056 square foot job and came up with about 13000 sq ft of sheetrock surface to paint, all by looking at plans. Though I did not place a bid using sq ft rate, most guys ask what that rate is.


While I did write it as a joke, I WISH it was against the law 
Seriously, I teach construction estimating and always present the idea of bidding by square foot floor area as a joke, a ridiculous thing to do. I DO use floor footages as a CHECKING measure only...

Send me a link to those plans, I'd like to make sure you did ok


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

"Example if home is 4500 sq ft of living we know that the actual sq ft of board will be about 28000 sq ft ."

Is that your final answer?


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Harry said:


> While I did write it as a joke, I WISH it was against the law
> Seriously, I teach construction estimating and always present the idea of bidding by square foot floor area as a joke, a ridiculous thing to do. I DO use floor footages as a CHECKING measure only...
> 
> Send me a link to those plans, I'd like to make sure you did ok


Hmm... they gave me physical copies of the plans. Would they have them online too?

I really just use floor footage as a first impression of the general size of the job. Complex floor plans and crazy twisty hallways with ten doors is a real time consumer, but would not cost much if bid by the floor footage!


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

"Complex floor plans and crazy twisty hallways with ten doors is a real time consumer, but would not cost much if bid by the floor footage!"

Can I quote you on that? lol
Look, nothing costs more than screwing up a bid. Every good to great estimator spends the needed time on each and every print, period. Anybody who takes shortcuts is a fool as far as I'm concerned. I've been doing this for over three decades and believe me if there was a magic bullet, I'd be using it.

Bottom line is...we paint what gets measured...


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Harry said:


> "Complex floor plans and crazy twisty hallways with ten doors is a real time consumer, but would not cost much if bid by the floor footage!"
> 
> Can I quote you on that? lol
> Look, nothing costs more than screwing up a bid. Every good to great estimator spends the needed time on each and every print, period. Anybody who takes shortcuts is a fool as far as I'm concerned. I've been doing this for over three decades and believe me if there was a magic bullet, I'd be using it.
> ...


Please quote me on that! My was point was that you can't rely on floor feet for that very reason. A hallway can take forever, even though it only measures a few floor square feet.

BTW-I would love to take a class like you offer. I have never been trained formally.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

A+HomeWork said:


> Please quote me on that! My was point was that you can't rely on floor feet for that very reason. A hallway can take forever, even though it only measures a few floor square feet.
> 
> BTW-I would love to take a class like you offer. I have never been trained formally.


I'd like to take a class too, the PDCA offers them, I keep waiting for Brandt to come to Utah!

Does not look like the schedule is up to date, but there is a phone number.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> I'd like to take a class too, the PDCA offers them, I keep waiting for Brandt to come to Utah!
> 
> Does not look like the schedule is up to date, but there is a phone number.


Give me a call, I'll start you on the right path...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

A+HomeWork said:


> Please quote me on that! My was point was that you can't rely on floor feet for that very reason. A hallway can take forever, even though it only measures a few floor square feet.
> 
> BTW-I would love to take a class like you offer. I have never been trained formally.


Ahhh...I get it now .
By all means, get in touch...


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## Mod Paint Works (Jul 2, 2010)

I find it hard to believe that bidding on sq ft/living space would turn out an accurate number. I guess for NC that can be the only option when working with 'prints'. Plus, once you have an idea of one style home being built in a 'hood' they might turn out 'similar'...???  How much time do you guys spend reviewing prints? Are you already THE contractor or is that time wasted? Bidding NC would take a bit of a learning curve for me! Props to you NC contractors!

Doing 99% repaints I only strictly measure sq ft/wall space. Will not go by living space. Not only are my numbers accurate every time, but I never screw up on my paint/materials quantities!


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## Rockford Il Painter (Feb 12, 2011)

I would like more information too Harry. I'm often asked for my sq. ft. price and I don't do alot of blueprints so i'm kinda at a loss here.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Rockford Il Painter said:


> I would like more information too Harry. I'm often asked for my sq. ft. price and I don't do alot of blueprints so i'm kinda at a loss here.


Sure, give me a call next week sometime - 603-645-6700


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## SuperiorPainter (Feb 12, 2011)

You need to figure out what your linear sq/ft is if you want to price a job by the sq/ft.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

SuperiorPainter said:


> You need to figure out what your linear sq/ft is if you want to price a job by the sq/ft.


Educate us superior. Watcha mean?

Sent from my PC36100 using Paint Talk


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

SuperiorPainter said:


> You need to figure out what your linear sq/ft is if you want to price a job by the sq/ft.


That's right.

The square foot floor area price has absolutely nothing to do with anything UNTIL the correct price is figured.

Once the correct price is figured PER JOB...the prices can be divided by the floor area to arrive at the IDIOTIC numbers that GC's want.

And the ONLY times that two square foot floor area prices can be the same is by either, coincidence or exact duplication, meaning two jobs are 100% identical.

There are so many variables on jobs. It's not enough to think in terms of..."well we have so many doors, so many windows, walls, ceilings, etc". 

The deal is that some interior windows have a drywall return, some have wood. Some windows are vinyl, some need to be painted. Some doors are single panel flat, while others are 6 panel. Some closets have cased openings, some don't. Some closet doors are flat bi-folds, some are louvered. Some kitchen cabinets have a filler panel above, some are open (you have to paint the header above the cabinets. Some ceilings are flat, some are textured.

Some 1,500 sf units have 2 bedrooms, some have three. If they have three, it's certain that you have extra wall space and doors to paint.

And on and on...


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## DT&P (Feb 27, 2011)

another variable is...

a sq ft I can paint from standing on the floor doesn't cost the same as a sq ft 20' off the deck

I NEVER bid by the sq ft!


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## SuperiorPainter (Feb 12, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> Educate us superior. Watcha mean?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Paint Talk


My estimator does my bidding for me, but I will tell what he does, he basically calculates the length of the walls and multiply that by the height of the walls which gives you your area. Once you have your area you multiply that by your cost per ft and viola you have your estimate. 

If you are just using living space you could get burnt if there are more walls in an area.

I am no genius so if you need more help than that you either need to get an estimator or use google.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

__________________________________________________________________________
[email protected] Unit Matl Labor Total
__________________________________________________________________________
Measurements are based on the square feet of wall coated. Do not deduct for openings less than 100 square feet. These figures assume paint products are being applied over a smooth finish. For heights above 8 feet, use the High Time Difficulty Factors on page 137. These figures include brushing-in at corners when all walls are the same color, and at ceilings that are the same color or finished with acoustic spray-on texture. ADD for cutting-in at ceilings if they're a different color than the walls, or at corners where walls in the same room are painted different colors. Do not include cutting-in time for ceilings unless you're only painting the ceilings, not the walls. "Slow" work is based on an hourly wage of $13.25, "Medium" work on an hourly wage of $19.50, and "Fast" work on an hourly wage of $25.50. Other qualifications that apply to this table are on page 9.
Walls, Gypsum Drywall Walls, Gypsum Drywall Roll 1st coat of water base latex on smooth finish gypsum drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
[email protected] Unit Matl Labor Total
__________________________________________________________________________
Walls, gypsum drywall, smooth-wall finish, roll, per 100 SF of wall area
Flat latex, water base (material #5)
Roll 1st coat
Slow 300 SF/MH, 325 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 7.29 5.71 13.00
Medium 513 SF/MH, 313 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 6.61 5.15 11.76
Fast 725 SF/MH, 300 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.90 5.51 11.41
Roll 2nd coat of water base latex on smooth finish gypsum drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Roll 2nd coat
Slow 375 SF/MH, 375 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 6.32 4.58 10.90
Medium 563 SF/MH, 363 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.70 4.70 10.40
Fast 750 SF/MH, 350 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.06 5.31 10.37
Roll additional coats of water base latex on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Roll 3rd or additional coats
Slow 450 SF/MH, 400 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.93 3.81 9.74
Medium 625 SF/MH, 388 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.34 4.22 9.56
Fast 800 SF/MH, 375 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 4.72 4.99 9.71
Roll prime coat of water base sealer on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Sealer (drywall), water base (material #1)
Roll prime coat
Slow 245 SF/MH, 350 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 6.11 7.00 13.11
Medium 485 SF/MH, 325 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.78 5.44 11.22
Fast 725 SF/MH, 300 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 5.37 5.51 10.88
Roll prime coat of oil base sealer on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Sealer (drywall), oil base (material #2)
Roll prime coat
Slow 245 SF/MH, 325 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 9.20 7.00 16.20
Medium 485 SF/MH, 300 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 8.73 5.44 14.17
Fast 725 SF/MH, 275 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 8.15 5.51 13.66
Roll 1st finish coat of water base enamel on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Enamel, water base (material #9)
Roll 1st finish coat
Slow 235 SF/MH, 325 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 9.88 7.31 17.19
Medium 438 SF/MH, 313 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 8.98 6.02 15.00
Fast 640 SF/MH, 300 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 8.03 6.22 14.25
Roll additional finish coats of water base enamel on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Roll 2nd or additional finish coats
Slow 280 SF/MH, 350 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 9.17 6.13 15.30
Medium 465 SF/MH, 338 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 8.31 5.68 13.99
Fast 680 SF/MH, 325 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 7.42 5.87 13.29
Roll 1st finish coat of oil base enamel on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
Enamel, oil base (material #10)
Roll 1st finish coat
Slow 235 SF/MH, 300 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 12.30 7.31 19.61
Medium 438 SF/MH, 288 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 11.22 6.02 17.24
Fast 640 SF/MH, 275 SF/Gal [email protected] CSF 10.07 6.22 16.29
Walls, Gypsum Drywall Walls, Gypsum Drywall Roll additional finish coats of oil base enamel on smooth finish drywall, per 100 SF of wall
__________________________________________________________________________
[email protected] Unit Matl Labor Total
__________________________________________________________________________


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

SuperiorPainter said:


> My estimator does my bidding for me, but I will tell what he does, he basically calculates the length of the walls and multiply that by the height of the walls which gives you your area. Once you have your area you multiply that by your cost per ft and viola you have your estimate.
> 
> If you are just using living space you could get burnt if there are more walls in an area.
> 
> I am no genius so if you need more help than that you either need to get an estimator or use google.



:w00t::lol:.... I was pulling your leg brotha. Give me your estimators number, and we'll shoot the bull....

Unfortunately, I dont run enough crews to hire an estimator. Until then, I will have to do...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Woodland said:


> __________________________________________________________________________
> [email protected] Unit Matl Labor Total
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Measurements are based on the square feet of wall coated. Do not deduct for openings less than 100 square feet. These figures assume paint products are being applied over a smooth finish. For heights above 8 feet, use the High Time Difficulty Factors on page 137. These figures include brushing-in at corners when all walls are the same color, and at ceilings that are the same color or finished with acoustic spray-on texture. ADD for cutting-in at ceilings if they're a different color than the walls, or at corners where walls in the same room are painted different colors. Do not include cutting-in time for ceilings unless you're only painting the ceilings, not the walls. "Slow" work is based on an hourly wage of $13.25, "Medium" work on an hourly wage of $19.50, and "Fast" work on an hourly wage of $25.50. Other qualifications that apply to this table are on page 9.
> ...



My suggestion is that you hide that crap from Craftyouknowwho as I find it to be garbage. I actually use it as a joke for my classes as that's all it is, IMO.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I have never in my life bid a job by floor space??? Although I probably get 3-5 call a week where they will say my home is 2500 sqft.What would it cost to paint...interior or exterior.
When I go through my unwelcomed explanation it usually falls on deaf ears!


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

NC here on Vancouver Island in BC is all by floor sq.ft and with also a sq ft price for ceilings added on. For example :
I just bid a 7200 sq ft NC higher end home.at $3.00 sq. ft. walls and $1.00 sq. ft for ceilings 
so 7,200 sq ft. walls = $21,600 + ceilings= $7,200 for a
total of $28,800 + H.S.T. tax @12% ($3456.00)
my base line bid is $32,256.00.

This is for primer and 2 top coats on both walls and ceilings. 
This includes trim/windows/baseboards and materials at Cloverdale pricing.
If Benjamin Moore paint then the difference between cost
at Cloverdale and Benjamin Moore'e higher price will be added on.
Doors if clear are included in the price, Doors if stained are $20.00 xtra
crown molding is around $300 per room or charged hourly.
Wainscotting is by the hour.


.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> NC here on Vancouver Island in BC is all by floor sq.ft and with also a sq ft price for ceilings added on. For example :
> I just bid a 7200 sq ft NC higher end home.at $3.00 sq. ft. walls and $1.00 sq. ft for ceilings
> so 7,200 sq ft. walls = $21,600 + ceilings= $7,200 for a
> total of $28,800 + H.S.T. tax @12% ($3456.00)
> ...


Read what you just wrote (top paragraph) again please, it makes no sense to me...


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

*Hi Harry*



Harry said:


> Read what you just wrote (top paragraph) again please, it makes no sense to me...


hang on for the translation. In my area new construction pricing is determined by: 1. total floor sq. ft. price 
2. add on total ceiling sq. ft pricing
3. add on crown + wainscotting


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

....easy now Harry.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> hang on for the translation. In my area new construction pricing is determined by: 1. total floor sq. ft. price
> 2. add on total ceiling sq. ft pricing
> 3. add on crown + wainscotting


And where do you live? In youvegottabekiddingmeville ?

Seriously, learn a better method. Price each item that needs painting, not the ridiculous SF floor way... 

I've worked with people from your area...only the guys who can't estimate do what you do...the others all use proven estimating methods...


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

*another frog in the well looks out his hole and thinks he surveys the big picture*



Harry said:


> And where do you live? In youvegottabekiddingmeville ?
> 
> Seriously, learn a better method. Price each item that needs painting, not the ridiculous SF floor way...
> 
> I've worked with people from your area...only the guys who can't estimate do what you do...the others all use proven estimating methods...


haha too funny. you mean that BC never got the go-ahead/approval from you before their pricing methods were set up. Matter of fact
I do quite well estimating and see your quassi school as an unnecessary step, really just another greedy open hand that wants filling/cut of the pie.
There are many methods/ways to skin a cat. You may have systems that are helpful but you are far from the end all/be all of price setting.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Harry said:


> And where do you live? In youvegottabekiddingmeville ?
> 
> Seriously, learn a better method. Price each item that needs painting, not the ridiculous SF floor way...
> 
> I've worked with people from your area...only the guys who can't estimate do what you do...the others all use proven estimating methods...




.....never mind.....:whistling2:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> haha too funny. you mean that BC never got the go-ahead/approval from you before their pricing methods were set up. Matter of fact
> I do quite well estimating and see your quassi school as an unnecessary step, really just another greedy open hand that wants filling/cut of the pie.
> There are many methods/ways to skin a cat. You may have systems that are helpful but you are far from the end all/be all of price setting.


I guess I hurt your feelings...that's why you did a "personal" on me. Sorry if I offended you but the truth is that your method is inferior.

You want to know something about these boards and me?

I have been on boards for 13 years and never asked anyone for a dime or to come to my school. I have offered free help and a bunch of guys through the years actually called me. Matter of fact, i've ALWAYS remained low key when it came to my classes.

Truth is, most residential painters don't see the value of my classes and/or feel as if they can't afford them.

In 13 years, I have had ONE student from the boards so believe me when I say that this venue is not my bread and butter winner.

Ok, so back to the SF floor area system. Anyone who BOTHERS to take the time to evaluate such a system will realize that it doesn't work beyond a cookie cutter scenario, period.

Nothing "quasi" about the school either, we've been in existence for almost 35 years.

If you ever need help in seeing the light, feel free to call or write me, i'd be glad to help.

If you're NOT interested, we STILL make a good team..with you promoting the SF floor area system and me shooting it down...


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

hurt my feelings? huh, man only my wife can do that and it has its rewards. Naw, you were being an arrogant d**k and I don't have any patience for this pedestal thing. Like I said you probably have your strong points but.... anyway I was not promoting the sq ft way of bidding, i was working to my own advantage within that system in my area. Your way or no way is just tiring idealism. Did you shoot it down? not really you just said it was inferior. Not very constructive or enlightening in any way. Like I said you make your living either doing estimating for painters and drywallers and you have a vested interest in pushing that your way is the only way. As for 35 yrs. in the business....what is your point? There is a restaurant down my street that has been serving bad food for 40 years and is still in business


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> hurt my feelings? huh, man only my wife can do that and it has its rewards. Naw, you were being an arrogant d**k and I don't have any patience for this pedestal thing. Like I said you probably have your strong points but.... anyway I was not promoting the sq ft way of bidding, i was working to my own advantage within that system in my area. Your way or no way is just tiring idealism. Did you shoot it down? not really you just said it was inferior. Not very constructive or enlightening in any way. Like I said you make your living either doing estimating for painters and drywallers and you have a vested interest in pushing that your way is the only way. As for 35 yrs. in the business....what is your point? There is a restaurant down my street that has been serving bad food for 40 years and is still in business


Alright, here comes the name calling...nice. Profanity is no sign of intelligence.

I don't think measuring walls when walls have to be painted or counting doors when doors have to be painted is considered proprietary information by a long shot.

How about we place a bet right here on this board that I'll present 5 jobs to you and you'll screw up the pricing on every one of them if you use your system.

THEN...

You present 5 of YOUR jobs to me and I'll estimate with MY method and I'll come darned close and will be competitive.

I'm not here to argue with you or to try to hurt you, i'm here to TRY to show you that your system is not only inferior, but dangerous.

But your system is still inferior...:yes:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Harry, I would love to see you post a plan and break it down, not so much for the $$, but for the components.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

RCP said:


> Harry, I would love to see you post a plan and break it down, not so much for the $$, but for the components.


 and the man hrs that would be awesome:notworthy:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Yeah, that would be, but I understand if Harry can't. First, because of it being his business and second,everyone having different production rates, I doubt we could agree on anything anyways!


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

Harry said:


> Alright, here comes the name calling...nice. Profanity is no sign of intelligence.
> 
> I don't think measuring walls when walls have to be painted or counting doors when doors have to be painted is considered proprietary information by a long shot.
> 
> ...



now who is acting like a hurt little sissy?,

you gotta to expect a little flack when you are running around with yur head in the air pounding your chest and Matter of fact YOU did want to argue. You went out of your way to be nasty and I am not buying the'-"I did it for your own good" scenario

Regarding that circle jerk thing you want to do with me.... I am not playing anything with you. If you want to educate all of us ignorant painters then buck up -you now have the floor.... you post 2 or 3 examples of both ways of doing things and if it makes sense then I will say "Wow Harry you are great!" So show me/us what you got?
Come on Harry-it is your time to shine.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> Yeah, that would be, but I understand if Harry can't. First, because of it being his business and second,everyone having different production rates, I doubt we could agree on anything anyways!


You're right Chris, i can't give it all away.
But, talking about production rates...

I deal with all of the USA and Canada too...a few other countries.
Truth is, no matter where you go (except Florida) most production rates are pretty darned close. matter of fact you could take a guy from Michigan, send him to new Hampshire, take a guy from Virginia, send him to California and so on.

You'd be amazed at how close production rates are. 

The big variables are OH rates and payroll rates.

Funny thing (and I do this all the time) is I will estimate the same projects with many students from many areas...and the prices do vary. One 2 story office building I did came to $28 k in Toronto but only 15K in Atlanta...using the SAME production rates!


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Everyone has their own way of estimating. I've always considered proposing a sq ft price as nothing more than an easy way for a gc to compare your bid with others bidding against you. It's for ease of operation, and that may be one reason why gc's request the bid in that format.

To me, estimating by the sq ft of living space would at best, just a guess. I prefer measuring the area of the surface to be painted and applying my own production numbers to it.

I'm one of the painters that Harry has been kind enough to help out over the phone. For free, and with great results on a commercial bid. And it's the method that makes the most sense to me. 

An electrician or plumber could also offer a sqft price, but i'm sure that would occur after he's measured the length of pipe or wire needed, the size or gauge of either, where it's going to be installed, and how many walls or ceilings it will run in to come up with his actual price. Then he would take his actual price and make it a simple read for a gc by dividing by the sqft of floor space.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

RCP said:


> Yeah, that would be, but I understand if Harry can't. First, because of it being his business and second,everyone having different production rates, I doubt we could agree on anything anyways!


I'd agree with that.

Actually forget about 'us' agreeing....... there is benefit in process. I think some here would compare pistols, but many would take what benefits and apply to themselves.

Also agree that 'putting it out there' would kind of be like asking NEPS to come over and show me how to paint a room just 'cause he's a nice guy.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> I'd agree with that.
> 
> Actually forget about 'us' agreeing....... there is benefit in process. I think some here would compare pistols, but many would take what benefits and apply to themselves.
> 
> Also agree that 'putting it out there' would kind of be like asking NEPS to come over and show me how to paint a room just 'cause he's a nice guy.


I'm not that bad, am I?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Harry said:


> You're right Chris, i can't give it all away.
> But, talking about production rates...
> 
> I deal with all of the USA and Canada too...a few other countries.
> ...


There has to be a blip in your rates for OHIO (JP's stomping grounds). What is different about FL?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> now who is acting like a hurt little sissy?,
> 
> you gotta to expect a little flack when you are running around with yur head in the air pounding your chest and Matter of fact YOU did want to argue. You went out of your way to be nasty and I am not buying the'-"I did it for your own good" scenario
> 
> ...


There is no one running around beating their chests...I hope not at least, lol.

I do want to help everyone but not everyone wants help and I can identify with that. You made some remarks that were pretty much hinting that you've made it this far with your SF floor area system...and my only reply to that is, that you're either lucky or you don't even know where you've been leaving money on the table.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. I have no wish to antagonize or be antagonized...at least not when it gets personal...


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm not that bad, am I?


Jason123 is singing a song about you:jester:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

So is JasonAPI


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DeanV said:


> There has to be a blip in your rates for OHIO (JP's stomping grounds). What is different about FL?


Florida is a phenomenon, lol. I don't quite know why Florida has notoriously lower production rates than everywhere else. Some people try to attribute it to the heat but it's hot in many places.

Final opinion here is that it's simply the way it is. This difference of production is truly evident in commercial work. For instance, if a typical drywall hanger hangs 40 sheets in a day in Texas, a comparable guy will hang only 30 sheets in Florida...go figure...


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> So is JasonAPI



And EIEIO!


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

Harry said:


> There is no one running around beating their chests...I hope not at least, lol.
> 
> I do want to help everyone but not everyone wants help and I can identify with that. You made some remarks that were pretty much hinting that you've made it this far with your SF floor area system...and my only reply to that is, that you're either lucky or you don't even know where you've been leaving money on the table.
> 
> Let's agree to disagree and move on. I have no wish to antagonize or be antagonized...at least not when it gets personal...


Harry lets lay off the victim thing, ya made it personal when you choose to be nasty and antagonistic. Also You reacted and never actually looked at what I wrote about my sq ft bidding or else you would of known that I had been to the site, measured it up and knew what I was bidding on and had tweaked things in such a way that I was ending up with a good bid. I left nothing on the table. I not only bid the floor sq ft once, I bid it twice by putting a sq ft price on the ceilings and then had hourly rates for unknowns such as crowns and wainscotting which had not been decided yet by the builder. Also I had added costs for things like staining to be decided at a later date. My process was a living thing with flexabilty cause I know my production rates and ability. My area has a way of doing business and you don't seem to get that one can function creatively within a system and come out on top rather than needing to jump up and front about how you are not going to go along cause your way is better. I have no room for that sort of idealism in my life. It is possible to end up on the same place by different means. You seem to have a following on this forum and that probably means that your system works. Dude it is not the only way. The end
by frank


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

dude, your estimating method sucks, get over it and move on. nobody cares

Pat


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> dude, your estimating method sucks, get over it and move on. nobody cares
> 
> Pat


And you have an problem with my attitude?


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

looks like harry's girlfriends are coming to his rescue


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> dude, your estimating method sucks, get over it and move on. nobody cares
> 
> Pat


You are learning young Jedi, Key is to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, but never walk away nor ever run.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

crownislandpainting said:


> looks like harry's girlfriends are coming to his rescue


I've seen pics of Tim. Harry must be one butch dude for Tim to be his girlfriend. Hehehe

Sent from my PC36100 using Paint Talk


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> I've seen pics of Tim. Harry must be one butch dude for Tim to be his girlfriend. Hehehe
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Paint Talk


 what you tryin to say dude?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

timhag said:


> You are learning young Jedi, Key is to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, but never walk away nor ever run.


Heh, I hear ya, Sometimes I can get out of hand, start chit, take a beatin, whatever, its all fun and when all is said n done there is not one guy on this forum who I would not have a beer with.

With that being said, when I see one guy saying its ok, what ever, we can learn to disagree and the other guy who bids his job by the number of electrical outlets errr floor space keeps pushing something when there's nothing to be pushed, you just feel like saying stfu and move on..

Pat


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

With respect to everyone's methods, One thing that gets feathers ruffled a lot of times in regard to coming up with a price based on fl area sq ft is this. 

Take for example a room that is 30'x40' equaling 120 sq ft takes (X) amount of hrs to paint. Take the same size room only lets assume it has enough inner walls that it's now divided into 4 smaller rooms. The sq footage stays the same, only the amount of hours it takes to paint goes way up. (more surface area to paint)

I'm not saying that you don't realize this Crown, or that you wouldn't take the difference into consideration when you do your estimates. All I'm saying is that often times it's easy to assume that someone who estimates by floor sq ft even adding for ceiling sq ft ,wainscotting etc.. would be at risk of not being very accurate or consistent with their estimates. It's also probably safe to say that your entire process for estimating was not fairly documented in the short paragraph you gave describing it.

I'm not taking sides, I'm only taking into consideration what could be easily assumed when reading the cliff notes of someone's estimating process.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Heh, I hear ya, Sometimes I can get out of hand, start chit, take a beatin, whatever, its all fun and when all is said n done there is not one guy on this forum who I would not have a beer with.
> 
> With that being said, when I see one guy saying its ok, what ever, we can learn to disagree and the other guy who bids his job by the number of electrical outlets errr floor space keeps pushing something when there's nothing to be pushed, you just feel like saying stfu and move on..
> 
> Pat


Funny thing, I didn't read this thread, not interested. I couldn't tell you what was said prior to your attitude post. Just happened to click on the thread.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

timhag said:


> what you tryin to say dude?



All I was saying, Harry must be super manly (cause you seem like an alpha dog yourself) to make you be a girlfriend. Unless you want to be Harry's girlfriend?  

It was poorly written... My bad.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> Harry lets lay off the victim thing, ya made it personal when you choose to be nasty and antagonistic. Also You reacted and never actually looked at what I wrote about my sq ft bidding or else you would of known that I had been to the site, measured it up and knew what I was bidding on and had tweaked things in such a way that I was ending up with a good bid. I left nothing on the table. I not only bid the floor sq ft once, I bid it twice by putting a sq ft price on the ceilings and then had hourly rates for unknowns such as crowns and wainscotting which had not been decided yet by the builder. Also I had added costs for things like staining to be decided at a later date. My process was a living thing with flexabilty cause I know my production rates and ability. My area has a way of doing business and you don't seem to get that one can function creatively within a system and come out on top rather than needing to jump up and front about how you are not going to go along cause your way is better. I have no room for that sort of idealism in my life. It is possible to end up on the same place by different means. You seem to have a following on this forum and that probably means that your system works. Dude it is not the only way. The end
> by frank


You've GOT TO BE related to Charlie Sheen...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> Harry lets lay off the victim thing, ya made it personal when you choose to be nasty and antagonistic. Also You reacted and never actually looked at what I wrote about my sq ft bidding or else you would of known that I had been to the site, measured it up and knew what I was bidding on and had tweaked things in such a way that I was ending up with a good bid. I left nothing on the table. I not only bid the floor sq ft once, I bid it twice by putting a sq ft price on the ceilings and then had hourly rates for unknowns such as crowns and wainscotting which had not been decided yet by the builder. Also I had added costs for things like staining to be decided at a later date. My process was a living thing with flexabilty cause I know my production rates and ability. My area has a way of doing business and you don't seem to get that one can function creatively within a system and come out on top rather than needing to jump up and front about how you are not going to go along cause your way is better. I have no room for that sort of idealism in my life. It is possible to end up on the same place by different means. You seem to have a following on this forum and that probably means that your system works. Dude it is not the only way. The end
> by frank


First off, if telling you that your estimating method is primitive, inferior and dangerous is nasty and antagonistic, then you're right!

Second...I DID read what you had to say and even asked you a question in regards to what you wrote.

Third, any estimating system that uses a GUESSING GAME that is tweaked...is crap, period.

Now, I could care less what you think of me but at least take some time to think about what you're saying. I've been estimating for a long, long time and a method such as yours isn't going to beat my system, ever.

I keep responding to you in hopes that you'll "come around" but I guess it's futile.

At least, I'm getting emails and PM's asking for help with estimating the PROPER way...and THAT is what it's all about :thumbup:


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## crownislandpainting (Nov 29, 2010)

ahaa, here we go again. 
Like I said Harry you are a pompous dude dependent on we painters and drywallers to keep ya living the good life and it is in your vested interest to always come out way over the top . "MY ESTIMATING IS DANGEROUS" hahah too funny , lay off the cool-aid. My guess-work, as you call it , has my own methodology but is not wrapped up and papered with your bulls**t. Lets just move on here.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

crownislandpainting said:


> ahaa, here we go again.
> Like I said Harry you are a pompous dude dependent on we painters and drywallers to keep ya living the good life and it is in your vested interest to always come out way over the top . "MY ESTIMATING IS DANGEROUS" hahah too funny , lay off the cool-aid. My guess-work, as you call it , has my own methodology but is not wrapped up and papered with your bulls**t. Lets just move on here.


There's still time to learn!:thumbup:

And of course it's in my vested interest. Not in terms of money for me but in terms of trying to help contractors, one by one learn proven methods of estimating that won't hurt them or their families. I am here on this board to help, period.

I offered you a chance to prove me wrong but you chose to rant like a child instead...banging on your keyboard. Make a believer out of me based on your "methodology" and I'll spread the word!

Also... I wrote, "Let's agree to disagree and move on. I have no wish to antagonize or be antagonized...at least not when it gets personal..."


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Harry what do you see for rates around the country? Florida the lowest just curios, how does North Carolina compare to the rest of the country. Just curios if care to humor me if not no big deal:thumbsup:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> Harry what do you see for rates around the country? Florida the lowest just curios, how does North Carolina compare to the rest of the country. Just curios if care to humor me if not no big deal:thumbsup:


Gee Dave, the rates vary quite a bit, even county to county. I just had a student from Virginia and her rates were quite high from my other student who was from Atlanta. But she was closer to DC also.

Typically, at least in my experiences, the rates nearer the big cities are higher and if you look at the Davis Bacon wages (prevailing wages) http://www.gpo.gov/davisbacon/allstates.html you'll USUALLY find that open shop rate fluctuations do coincide with the Davis Bacon wages.

Take a look at your area in the above link, you may find fluctuations in your state also...


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