# Benjamin Moore problems



## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

Has anyone had any problems with Benjamin Moore paint or primer? If so, we're you able to get them to pay to have it fixed? I am dealing with a major primer failure on new drywall that is almost certainly a primer failure. I have not had any help from the paint rep. I would describe the rep as a used car salesman type. He has twisted me around in circles and refuses to see any possibility that the primer could have been bad. Does anyone know someone good to talk to at Benjamin Moore?


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## DeLauzonPainting (Dec 22, 2018)

I’ve never had problems aside from one gritty lot of Aura Exterior which was pulled from the shelves this past fall. Benjamin Moore is the only paint I’ve used the past fifteen years. I have never heard of any painting contractors having problems with any of the primers or paints.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I’d guess that manufacturing defects that lead to paint failures are pretty rare. Most failures are really issues caused by the painter and not the paint itself.

What’s the issue that’s going on? 




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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I have a hard time believing its bad primer on drywall.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

if it is the paint or the primer, there would be thousands of gallons of it out on the market and there would also be thousands of complaints. Failures of the paint itself don't happen in a vacuum or something. What exactly is it doing? Less than 2% of failures are caused by problems with the manufacturing of the paint, according to Sherman Williams research.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Joblow said:


> Has anyone had any problems with Benjamin Moore paint or primer? If so, we're you able to get them to pay to have it fixed? I am dealing with a major primer failure on new drywall that is almost certainly a primer failure. I have not had any help from the paint rep. I would describe the rep as a used car salesman type. He has twisted me around in circles and refuses to see any possibility that the primer could have been bad. Does anyone know someone good to talk to at Benjamin Moore?



I have heard of one failure but it was someone using a PPG primer with BM topcoat. sent to lab and turned out to be PPG incompatibility issue. PPG and BM did not pay out. Neither did the dealer that sold them both products. Now that customer shops with me!




> I am dealing with a major primer failure on new drywall that is *almost certainly* a primer failure.


If they take a sample and it turns out to be an product issue BM will help you out. Its not impossible there was a bad batch but it is extraordinarily rare and you wouldn't be the only one reporting it. 99% of issues are due to application, environmental, substrate issues, etc...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I have heard of one failure but it was someone using a PPG primer with BM topcoat. sent to lab and turned out to be PPG incompatibility issue. PPG and BM did not pay out. Neither did the dealer that sold them both products. Now that customer shops with me!


can you elaborate on that, so none of us ever make the same mistake?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I have only had one problem with BM. It was RS matte. When I opened it, it smelled like ammonia. Since I do not use matte a lot, I at first thought it might just be how the product smells. But, when I started working with it, it was very thick. Returned to the store, and the guys there confirmed it had gone bad.

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> can you elaborate on that, so none of us ever make the same mistake?


TBH I never got any specifics on that job other than the other store owner told this contractor to go pound sand. One of the largest and oldest operations around. Oh well more for me.

Lesson learned though is if your using primer and topcoat from different brands your sort of on your own as far as product support.


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

The sales girl in the store told me that they never, EVER sell this particular primer and paint. It just sits there in there store and gets old. The primer did not bond with the sheetrock. It just sat on the surface and didn't penetrate. The paint and primer never really got hard either. After 90 days of cure time, you can not put a piece of safe release tape on the paint. It all comes off the walls in bits and pieces or in sheets. The primer out if the can is very thick. I now have a big mess on my hands and don't know how to fix it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I take that back... It sounds like the primer may very well be the problem. At the very least, that store needs to help you resolve the problem.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Joblow said:


> The sales girl in the store told me that they never, EVER sell this particular primer and paint. It just sits there in there store and gets old. The primer did not bond with the sheetrock. It just sat on the surface and didn't penetrate. The paint and primer never really got hard either. After 90 days of cure time, you can not put a piece of safe release tape on the paint. It all comes off the walls in bits and pieces or in sheets. The primer out if the can is very thick. I now have a big mess on my hands and don't know how to fix it.



OK so what products did you apply? Do you have a batch number from the cans? I have opened and used 10year+ old latex paints, tinted and used them just fine. generally if i doesn't look like cottage cheese, doesn't smell 'bad', and looks like 'paint' solids are smoothly mixed then latex is usually good to go.


How likely is it that BOTH the paint and primer were both bad?


Go get some new scrap drywall (different than where you bought your current batch) and test it on those sheets. If it also fails on those then you have a legitimate product issue.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Ongoing.......see original thread.

https://www.painttalk.com/f6/help-major-paint-failure-92395/

If it's the primer, you may get a refund, but that's it. No way Is BM paying out money to you for new drywall or the original labor cost to apply the primer and topcoats.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Specifics, Bob.*



Joblow said:


> The sales girl in the store told me that they never, EVER sell this particular primer and paint. It just sits there in there store and gets old. The primer did not bond with the sheetrock. It just sat on the surface and didn't penetrate. The paint and primer never really got hard either. After 90 days of cure time, you can not put a piece of safe release tape on the paint. It all comes off the walls in bits and pieces or in sheets. The primer out if the can is very thick. I now have a big mess on my hands and don't know how to fix it.


Joblow, first off, is this, as Gymshu seems to indicate, a continuation of your earlier thread "Help! Major paint failure!" that you posted on 12-02-2018, 05:49 PM?

Next, what specific BM primer did you purchase and why?

futtyos


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Is the paint failure isolated to just the paint over the mud or is it failing on the gypsum board as well??


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

I would say that the paint failure is pretty much everywhere, but worst areas are the mudded areas. The primer is Fresh start no voc. The paint is Natura, no vocs. If the paint is bad, why wouldn't BM oay to replace drywall and repaint?


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

That question was...If the Paint is bad, why wouldn't Benjamin Moore pay for drywall replacement and repaint?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Primer thickness*



Joblow said:


> The sales girl in the store told me that they never, EVER sell this particular primer and paint. It just sits there in there store and gets old. The primer did not bond with the sheetrock. It just sat on the surface and didn't penetrate. The paint and primer never really got hard either. After 90 days of cure time, you can not put a piece of safe release tape on the paint. It all comes off the walls in bits and pieces or in sheets. The primer out if the can is very thick. I now have a big mess on my hands and don't know how to fix it.


I have never used BM Fresh Start. When you say that it was "thick" coming right out of new, unopened cans, did you get a feeling that perhaps something wasn't right? I know it can be hard to make judgement calls when one is not familiar with a product. Did you notice the "thickness" before or after the priming was done?

If I were applying a primer to new drywall and found it thick coming out of the can I might be worried that it would have problems soaking into and gripping the drywall and mud. That is one reason I am such a fan of using Gardz on new drywall as it definitely soaks into and bonds to the new drywall and mud without having to work it in too much. If I have to use something like 123 I find that I have to roll over areas a bit to work the primer into the surface. At any rate, I would be leary of applying anything too thick over bare drywall and mud as it would not seem like it would soak in enough to bond.

In your 1st post in *Help! Major paint failure!* you mentioned that your painter may have sprayed the primer, but not backrolled it. If he was spraying very thick primer and not backrolling it, I could see where there would be problems with it not adhering.

You also mention that *"The sales girl in the store told me that they never, EVER sell this particular primer and paint. It just sits there in there store and gets old."* I am guessing she told you this after the problems ocurred.

My guess is that it was the old primer being too thick as well as not being applied in a manner likely to help it bond properly to the new drywall and mud. I don't recall you mentioning anything specifically bad with the paint other than it sitting in the store for a long time, so I am going to go with the primer being bad to start with and then being improperly applied.

If all the foregoing is the case, I would defer to PACman and cocomonkeynuts as to how BM should remedy your situation.

futtyos

P.S. Why did you decide on Fresh Start and Natura for your primer and paint?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Joblow said:


> I would say that the paint failure is pretty much everywhere, but worst areas are the mudded areas. The primer is Fresh start no voc. The paint is Natura, no vocs. If the paint is bad, why wouldn't BM oay to replace drywall and repaint?


 @futtyos Freshstart is BM's line of 'premium' primers. In particular OP has used the Fresh Natura 511 primer. A hallmark of freshstart primers are high solids content, of course it will be thicker than a PVA and be thankful you didn't open a can of STIX! Its fairly obvious when latex paint has gone bad. As in the smell, or the paint looks not mixed or solids like cottage cheese. 



Do you have batch numbers? I can check manufacture date and if there are any open cases against those products.

*If *the paint is bad batch I would expect your BM rep to help you out. Again though its exceptionally rare for a bad batch of paint to make it to the shelf and not have any issue reported by someone else...

I know its easy to blame the paint but *99% of failures are not due to the paint! *Of course its _possible _the paint is bad, test it on a scrap piece of new drywall. If it fails on new drywall then maybe there really is an issue and I would escalate that to your local BM rep. If he isn't helpful then talk to his boss...


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Joblow, I thought you did a room yourself that ended up being just fine. If that is the case, how is the primer and/or paint the problem? Seems to me to be an application error on behalf of the painter you hired, in which case, HIS insurance company needs to be involved to get this settled. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think BM is going to make it all right.


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

So I did paint a room myself with the same product, but it was from a different store and different base. The primer in the room I painted was rolled. So the sales girl td me as I was purchaseing the paint that they never sell this product. The primer right out of the can is xtreemly thick. When I first opened the can I was surprised with how thick it was and was worried that I would have a problem. It seemed to roll ok, but again, I didn't attempt to spray with it. I went with this paint because of their claim that it does not have an odor after about one hour of dry time, which is true. It was virtually odor free the next day and we were able to move in quickly with our daughter who is sensitive.


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

I do not know if there was a bad odor with the paint and primer, because I did not apply it. But he was able to spray it. I will get the batch code for the paint and primer and post it.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

No need to post the batch codes. Just take that info to BM. Maybe it IS a bad batch. Have you had the BM rep out to your property to assess the situation? Seems like that would be the place to start and THEN get the insurance adjuster out there for your painting contractor. I see no other options other than that at this point.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm not sure what else you expect us in this forum to do for you. 
Your spinning your wheels here..take action.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

I opened some old cans of natura flat today, a lot of the solids had settled and felt 'thick'. This is common with many paints and shaking upside down in the 5g mixer, poking the bottom (scraping) with a stick, then mixing in the 1g vortex mixer seemed to mix them back up well enough.


Maybe your cans were similar and your store didn't mix them up enough.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Wait.... Stores are supposed to shake primer?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Wait.... Stores are supposed to shake primer?


I have *never* not shaken primer. Not a single can has left my store unshaken.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I usually dont think bout it. Sometimes they'll ask if I want it shaken though.


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## Joblow (Dec 1, 2018)

I have had the BM paint rep out. He immediately wanted to blame the past nter or the mud or anything but the primer. He was extremely difficult. He talked me around in circles. I have tried to talk to his boss and have gotten no where with them. They won't let me talk to his boss. Would I be better off going to small claims or trying to deal with the insurance company? The past nter is horrible to try and deal with. I dont know if he would even give me his number.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Take who to small claims? BM? LOL good luck with that considering all you said already in this thread and the last...


The store you bought that from needs to give your Rep a kick in the butt. Regardless what is underneath at the actual cause of the issue, and the end of the day that's his product on your walls. He should have already taken a sample to send to the lab and get your issue resolved.




> They won't let me talk to his boss.


Who is "they"? I find that extremely difficult to believe.


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## ScottsPainting (Jan 21, 2018)

I have had that issue with SW primers 12 yrs ago on new drywall, the bonding was not evident until remodeling, no real failures, just bad bond. Funny thing is the ProMar 400 that was sprayed near the ceilings stuck to dirty drywall better than the primer on clean drywall that was worked in with a roller.

It all comes down 2 ur relationship with the rep, and a terrible rep will be useless.


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## Greggy (Aug 24, 2021)

Anyone else having an issue with Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove enamel for trim going yellowish in just a few weeks after application? 
I used Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove on walls (flat) and trim (satin) and within 3-4 weeks most of the trim yellowed. This was on sanded and primed old trim and crown, as well as on brand new primed trim and crown. My contractor spoke with a BM rep and said the guy indicated that this is a known issue. Rep said something about "was the room dark a lot", like low to no light would cause this...Seriously!


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Greggy said:


> Anyone else having an issue with Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove enamel for trim going yellowish in just a few weeks after application?
> I used Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove on walls (flat) and trim (satin) and within 3-4 weeks most of the trim yellowed. This was on sanded and primed old trim and crown, as well as on brand new primed trim and crown. My contractor spoke with a BM rep and said the guy indicated that this is a known issue. Rep said something about "was the room dark a lot", like low to no light would cause this...HA HA HA. Seriously!
> Working on resolution now. Obviously they will replace the materials, but who will pay for labor to redo it all?


3-4 weeks is pretty quick, but if you are using an alkyd hybrid, then yes it does happen and it is a known fact. Welcome to the world of oil based enamels!! Have you ever opened a cabinet that had been painted with oil and wondered why the inside was so much yellower than the outside..that's it.


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## Greggy (Aug 24, 2021)

MikeCalifornia said:


> 3-4 weeks is pretty quick, but if you are using an alkyd hybrid, then yes it does happen and it is a known fact. Welcome to the world of oil based enamels!! Have you ever opened a cabinet that had been painted with oil and wondered why the inside was so much yellower than the outside..that's it.


So the darkness inside the cabinets really do impact the yellowing? The trim in my house are all in rooms with plenty of windows.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Greggy said:


> Anyone else having an issue with Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove enamel for trim going yellowish in just a few weeks after application?
> I used Benjamin Moore OC-17 White Dove on walls (flat) and trim (satin) and within 3-4 weeks most of the trim yellowed. This was on sanded and primed old trim and crown, as well as on brand new primed trim and crown. My contractor spoke with a BM rep and said the guy indicated that this is a known issue. Rep said something about "was the room dark a lot", like low to no light would cause this...HA HA HA. Seriously!
> Working on resolution now. Obviously they will replace the materials, but who will pay for labor to redo it all?


White dove alkyd Satin Impervo will yellow in a matter of weeks in the absence of UV light. It’s a common condition referred to as alkyd yellowing. 

Below is a picture of my basement laundry room which doesn’t receive natural sunlight. The ceiling, doors, and trim are all White Dove. The alkyd trim paint yellowed whereas the acrylic ceiling paint didn’t.


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## Greggy (Aug 24, 2021)

Redux said:


> White dove alkyd Satin Impervo will yellow in a matter of weeks in the absence of UV light. It’s a common condition referred to as alkyd yellowing.
> 
> Below is a picture of my basement laundry room which doesn’t receive natural sunlight. The ceiling, doors, and trim are all White Dove. The alkyd trim paint yellowed whereas the acrylic ceiling paint didn’t.
> 
> View attachment 112534


Interesting, thanks for the reply.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Greggy said:


> Interesting, thanks for the reply.


Vapors from alkaline floor finishes and even ammonia vapors from cleaning products can cause uncured alkyd paints to yellow.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

25 years ago, I did have a problem with Benjamin Moore BUT it was not the product or the painter that caused the problem. It was an idiot at a Benjamin Moore Outlet Store. One of their employees suggested a varnish over a flat faux finish. I was careful to explain to the young man it had to be VERY flat and basically invisible. I used the product he offered. I arrived the next day to see that the entire job had been ruined. When I spoke to BM, I explained what had happened and "I know that you say you do not pay the labour cost on a do over but I think you need to come and see what has happened here. I can not afford to do this whole job again!" They did, indeed, send two guys to look at the job. The end result was they paid for every scrap of material down to the last inch of masking tape; they refunded the cost of the inappropriate varnish. They also paid the labour for the do over, and all with out a squabble! It was a huge job, 2400 ft sq of wall that had that finish applied. In the end, the varnish used was a water colour varnish from an art supplies store & $200 a gallon. That did work. It was depressing to need to do the whole thing a second time and I nearly wore out my fing tips relaying all that tape. After that, I swore by Benjamin Moore's willingness to stand by their products. It is also the reason I refuse to use cheap paint! Buying on the cheap would have cost me a fortune on that job. If they feel it is clear they were in any way responsible for a failed job they will make good! On the other hand, they encounter so many shysters in any given year they are generally and justifiably suspicious. They have had painters do such things as pollute the paint with dirty pond water or defile it in other ways and try to claim the product was bad. In every case, samples are sent to a lab and they always know what was done to wreck the product. That is why they say they will never pay the cost of labour. Painters have pulled these stunts to try and generate more work. Phuck those AH painters. Finally, as PACman said "if it is the paint or the primer, there would be thousands of gallons of it out on the market and there would also be thousands of complaints." ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Wait.... Stores are supposed to shake primer?


 I always get mine shaken!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Greggy said:


> So the darkness inside the cabinets really do impact the yellowing? The trim in my house are all in rooms with plenty of windows.


Yes and if you stick the cabinets out side I the sun for a few hours 95% of the yellowing will go away. Don't use alkyds if you can't afford any yellowing.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yes and if you stick the cabinets out side I the sun for a few hours 95% of the yellowing will go away. Don't use alkyds if you can't afford any yellowing.


I had a builder freak after he removed floor protection on some antique reclaimed flooring which I cerused using an alkyd resin cerusing medium. The white ceruse turned a deep amber color in the absence of sunlight. I advised him not to fret over it and assured him that the ambering would revert to white within just a couple of days after being exposed to natural sunlight, which it did…alkyd yellowing reverses pretty quickly when exposed to sunlight.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> I had a builder freak after he removed floor protection on some antique reclaimed flooring which I cerused using an alkyd resin cerusing medium. The white ceruse turned a deep amber color in the absence of sunlight. I advised him not to fret over it and assured him that the ambering would revert to white within just a couple of days after being exposed to natural sunlight, which it did…alkyd yellowing reverses pretty quickly when exposed to sunlight.


I recall reading this article several years ago. I have my floors painted in the old porch & floor urethane alkyd and any customer that asks I show them under the mats where its not exposed to sun.








What is Dark Yellowing? | Just Paint


Dark yellowing is the reversible, temporary yellowing that dried oil paint undergoes when stored in the dark or subdued lighting. While noted in many historical writings, most painters remain unaware of it and become surprised or concerned when they discover it happening to their own works...




justpaint.org


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

jennifertemple said:


> 25 years ago, I did have a problem with Benjamin Moore BUT it was not the product or the painter that caused the problem. It was an idiot at a Benjamin Moore Outlet Store. One of their employees suggested a varnish over a flat faux finish. I was careful to explain to the young man it had to be VERY flat and basically invisible. I used the product he offered. I arrived the next day to see that the entire job had been ruined. When I spoke to BM, I said " I explained what had happened and I know that you say you do not pay the labour cost on a do over but I think you need to come and see what has happened here. I can not afford to do this whole job again!" They did, indeed, send two guys to look at the job. The end result was they paid for every scrap of material down to the last inch of masking tape; they refunded the cost of the inappropriate varnish. They also paid the labour for the do over, and all with out a squabble! It was a huge job, 2400 ft sq of wall that had that finish applied. In the end, the varnish used was a water colour varnish from an art supplies store & $200 a gallon. That did work. It was depressing to need to do the whole thing a second time and I nearly wore out my fing tips relaying all that tape. After that, I swore by Benjamin Moore's willingness to stand by their products. It is also the reason I refuse to use cheap paint! Buying on the cheap would have cost me a fortune on that job. If they feel it is clear they were in any way responsible for a failed job they will make good! On the other hand, they encounter so many shysters in any given year they are generally and justifiably suspicious. They have had painters do such things as pollute the paint with dirty pond water or defile it in other ways and try to claim th3e product was bad. In every case, samples are sent to a lab and they always know what was done to wreck the product. That is why they say they will never pay the costy of labour. Painters have pulled these stunts to try and generate more work. Phuck those AH painters. Finally, as PACman said "if it is the paint or the primer, there would be thousands of gallons of it out on the market and there would also be thousands of complaints." ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!


Even my SW rep admitted to me that paint prices are more or less determined by the warranty of the paint, and not so much the quality of the paint. As in, if a paint is likely to get a warranty claim the price has to be higher to offset the warranty claims. They gave me the example of SW Armorseal floor paint and people putting over oil and grease stains in garages and it failing in that scenario, and thus why the price tends to be high even though the product isn't really that expensive to make. It's also why you can basically put out the same product under different labels (ie, Emerald Urethane and Pro-Industrial) but price one higher, warranty claims. 

BM is obviously top notch at warranty claims and paying for materials, and I've heard stories like bad batches of Natura and BM paying for rooms to be re-drywalled entirely, which I doubt other paint companies would do in that scenario.

I think the warranty claim aspect gives BM the edge on "mission critical" kind of jobs, as I had a legitimate issue with a bad SW batch on my first larger new construction job and signing a paper saying you won't sue them and getting kicked a free gallon doesn't really help you much.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

celicaxx said:


> BM is obviously top notch at warranty claims and paying for materials, and I've heard stories like bad batches of Natura and BM paying for rooms to be re-drywalled entirely, which I doubt other paint companies would do in that scenario.
> 
> I think the warranty claim aspect gives BM the edge on "mission critical" kind of jobs, as I had a legitimate issue with a bad SW batch on my first larger new construction job and signing a paper saying you won't sue them and getting kicked a free gallon doesn't really help you much.


When a situation like the one I described happens and BM come through with flying colors, for you. It does have that WOW! factor and you promptly decide that any really important, expensive, big or complicated job, it's definately going to be BM that gets the order! The other thing is BM knows trades people share information; when they do a first rate job of backing up the products it has got to be the best advertising money can buy, after all, pros are their main customers.


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