# Painting over smoke damaged walls



## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

I have been contacted by a family friend to do some painting after a tiny fire with lots of smoke. His furnace was installed improperly and caught fire but luckily another hose near by burned and pissed water on it. this happened a couple of times through out the day causing a lot of smoldering. but no visible soot anywhere.So my question is. Should the drywall areas be cleaned with a solution? I am planning on oil priming the walls and ceilings with either coverstain or zinsser odor less oil. I am waiting to hear from the insurance company to see if they have any wacky protocol for this. All info would be appreciated, i want to have ammo for my guns with insurance company.....also should my rates change a little for the job???:whistling2::whistling2:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

dhlll said:


> .so my question is. Should the drywall areas be cleaned with a solution?


duh!


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

timhag said:


> duh!


really duh? thats your intelligent response? I feel the that sealing properties of an oil or shellac based primer would holdout the smell, but want to double check. Thats why this website was originally created so we can interact and educate each other. So thanks for you mindlless response brother brush-------> douche


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

DHlll said:


> I have been contacted by a family friend to do some painting after a tiny fire with lots of smoke. His furnace was installed improperly and caught fire but luckily another hose near by burned and pissed water on it. this happened a couple of times through out the day causing a lot of smoldering. but no visible soot anywhere.So my question is. Should the drywall areas be cleaned with a solution? I am planning on oil priming the walls and ceilings with either coverstain or zinsser odor less oil. I am waiting to hear from the insurance company to see if they have any wacky protocol for this. All info would be appreciated, i want to have ammo for my guns with insurance company.....also should my rates change a little for the job???:whistling2::whistling2:


Yeah,I'd TSP the walls then use coverstain or Killz oil..Don't forget to wash the trim and seal/paint the ceiling as well.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

DHlll said:


> really duh? thats your intelligent response? I feel the that sealing properties of an oil or shellac based primer would holdout the smell, but want to double check. Thats why this website was originally created so we can interact and educate each other. So thanks for you mindlless response brother brush-------> douche


Why would you ask" Should the drywall areas be cleaned with a solution?" ---------------> Mr Obvious?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Maybe you can use soot sponges before you seal.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...ult&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q8wIwAg#

There are other kinds but that's the idea...


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

i like to have a belt and suspenders approach on all tasks. My initial thought was because there were no actual flames that the oil primer would be enough, but want to cross reference with other professionals. Thanks
By the way i saw pictures on your site of you painting in blue jeans......lol!!!!:laughing:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

<----Mr. 1 upper

You want to use Shellac not Oil.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

DHlll said:


> i like to have a belt and suspenders approach on all tasks. My initial thought was because there were no actual flames that the oil primer would be enough, but want to cross reference with other professionals. Thanks
> By the way i saw pictures on your site of you painting in blue jeans......lol!!!!:laughing:


When you ask a kindergarten question you'll get retarded response. You are still at basic level. Stick around and learn, you need educated.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> <----Mr. 1 upper
> 
> You want to use Shellac not Oil.


thanks....not looking forward to a shellac shower on the ceilings!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DHlll said:


> thanks....not looking forward to a shellac shower on the ceilings!


Dont blame you, but shellac will seal out odor. Oil will block the stain, but do nothing for smell.


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

Clean with the soot sponge, then seal with BIN shellac before repainting, and you'll be fine.


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## TWPainting (Jan 30, 2008)

Clean and Bin everything the only way to go


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

If this is an insurance job, wouldn't the insurance company contract out the cleaning portion to a jprofessional cleaning service?
Sage


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

If there is no visible soot I wouldn't worry about cleaning the surface. But I would use kilz or BIN.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

EricTheHandyman said:


> Clean with the soot sponge, then seal with BIN shellac before repainting, and you'll be fine.


Eric, how the hell are ya?


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> <----Mr. 1 upper
> 
> You want to use Shellac not Oil.


 
I've used Killz original (oil based) to cover smoke damage many times with great results.That's what all the insurance restoration companies use here.Ya, a shellac based primer is also a great product too.



*KILZ® Original* 







Home













KILZ® ORIGINAL is the original stainblocking primer. It's an interior oil-based primer that tackles tough stains including water, smoke, tannin, grease, pet stains and more.












*Where to Use *
KILZ® ORIGINAL blocks most stains including water, smoke, tannin, ink, pencil, felt marker and grease, and seals pet and smoke odors. Use on interior surfaces including wood, drywall, plaster, paneling, wallpaper, masonry, brick, painted metal and properly prepared glossy surfaces.† KILZ ORIGINAL is not recommended on flooring.













*Surface Preparation† *

Wash off any dirt, grease or smoke damage with a non-soapy detergent or a TSP substitute, rinse well and then allow to dry.
Remove all mildew with a commercially available mildew remover, rinse well and then allow to dry. *Note*: KILZ PREMIUM and KILZ 2 are recommended for mildew-prone surfaces.
Unpainted, exterior wood exposed to sun and/or moisture longer than 2-4 weeks must be cleaned and sanded before priming.
For maximum adhesion, scrape off loose paint and scuff sand the surface thoroughly before priming. On glossy surfaces: scuff sand the surface thoroughly before priming.
 








*Application *

Eye protection is recommended.
For best results, use when substrate and air temperatures are between 35°F (2°C) and 90°F (32°C).
Stir or mix prior to and during use, do not thin.
Prime the entire surface to ensure a uniform appearance of the topcoat.
Tough stains may require two coats to block completely.
KILZ ORIGINAL may be used on clean, dry, aged masonry surfaces that have cured (dried) at least 90 days. If masonry has cured less than 90 days, use KILZ PREMIUM, KILZ 2 or KILZ ODORLESS.
Coverage varies by surface. Coverage will be approximately 300 square feet per gallon on rough surfaces; up to 400 square feet per gallon on smooth, nonporous surfaces.
Can be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon.














*Dry Time *

<LI style="MARGIN: 0px">Dries to the touch in 30 minutes at 77°F (25°C) and 50% humidity.
Recoat or topcoat after 1 hour.
 








*Clean Up & Disposal *

Use mineral spirits to clean tools, spatters and spills.
Spills can be contained with dry sand or other inert absorbent.
For recycling or disposal information in your community, call 1-800-CLEANUP.
Loading


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DHlll said:


> really duh? thats your intelligent response? I feel the that sealing properties of an oil or shellac based primer would holdout the smell, but want to double check. Thats why this website was originally created so we can interact and educate each other. So thanks for you mindlless response brother brush-------> douche



Of course it needs to be cleaned. How is paint going to adhere with crap on the substrate? If it were me I would hire a fire and water crew to come in and clean the soot before I painted anything.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

DHlll said:


> I have been contacted by a family friend to do some painting after a tiny fire with lots of smoke. His furnace was installed improperly and caught fire but luckily another hose near by burned and pissed water on it. this happened a couple of times through out the day causing a lot of smoldering. *but no visible soot anywhere*.So my question is. Should the drywall areas be cleaned with a solution? I am planning on oil priming the walls and ceilings with either coverstain or zinsser odor less oil. I am waiting to hear from the insurance company to see if they have any wacky protocol for this. All info would be appreciated, i want to have ammo for my guns with insurance company.....also should my rates change a little for the job???:whistling2::whistling2:


I said there is no soot!! thats is why i asked. no soot......the walls are clean....they just smell like smoke.....holy moley. Bender thank you for reading and responding to my question. NC too


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

DHlll said:


> I said there is no soot!! thats is why i asked. no soot......the walls are clean....they just smell like smoke.....holy moley. Bender thank you for reading and responding to my question. NC too


Duh


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DHlll said:


> I said there is no soot!! thats is why i asked. no soot......the walls are clean....they just smell like smoke.....holy moley. Bender thank you for reading and responding to my question. NC too


This is why I suggested Shellac primer. Kilz wont block odor so you would have to scrub every inch really well. Shellac is much more forgiving.

I would imagine that the carpets will probably be replaced, sometimes they are sometimes not. If they are, shellac prime the subfloor too.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I'd wait until the insurance adjuster looked at it, we have done a few that the house was taken to studs, then framing sprayed and re rocked because of the smell. They even replaced all the cabinets!


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> This is why I suggested Shellac primer. Kilz wont block odor so you would have to scrub every inch really well. Shellac is much more forgiving.
> 
> I would imagine that the carpets will probably be replaced, sometimes they are sometimes not. If they are, shellac prime the subfloor too.


Killz does block smoke odor.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Killz does block smoke odor.


I think the odor of Kilz probably just drowns out the smoke smell. I haven't read anywhere that Kilz is a vapor barrier.....I think the Depot guy lied to you.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

RCP said:


> I'd wait until the insurance adjuster looked at it, we have done a few that the house was taken to studs, then framing sprayed and re rocked because of the smell. They even replaced all the cabinets!


Google "protein fire" . Customer of mine had one of those. They replaced the entire hvac system, hardwood floors, cabinets, and even the granite countertops. Probably would have been better off bulldozing the house and starting over. A year and a half later the house still smells....like rotten meat.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

I've seen guys use Kilz with a bit of Odo-Ban added...seemed to work well.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> I think the odor of Kilz probably just drowns out the smoke smell. I haven't read anywhere that Kilz is a vapor barrier.....I think the Depot guy lied to you.


Killz was in regular paint stores decades before HD started to carry it.

Here's one happy user:

GRAHAM — Graham is bowled over by recent improvements to its longtime bowling alley.
In May 2010, local resident David York purchased the Steer Bowl and immediately began an overhaul of the building.
The renovation project took a little over five months, and the business reopened Oct. 21, said manager Leland Harcrow.
"Now that we can see the end result, we can look at how beautiful it turned out. We're very pleased with the outcome," he said. "It's packed in here on the weekends."
The major challenge in renovating the bowling alley, which first opened in 1959, was getting rid of decades of damage caused by indoor smoking, York said.
*"You can imagine 50 years of cigarette smoking in a confined area with poor ventilation. The smoke just sat there. It was an accumulation," he said.*
*Construction crews tore out the old insulation and the dropped ceiling, spraying the entire ceiling with foam to get rid of smoke damage. It took countless hours to clean the brick walls, he said.*
*"We literally had to scrape the walls and then we had to spray them with vinegar. And then we had to spray them with vinegar. And then we had to spray them with vinegar," York said, discussing the amount of nicotine stains in the interior. "We used between 40 to 50 gallons of Kilz (primer) on the walls. *Those bricks breathe and are porous and they just sucked in the smoke over the years."
York said he knew that the building would have to be gutted when he started the project, because he wanted the bowling alley to be a place that would attract families and bowlers of all ages.
The building is now smoke-free and the distinct smell of newness fills the air.
"We wanted to try to create an environment like you'd find in a Metroplex, only find in a small town," he said. "Our goal is for it to always be clean and always be fun."
The new interior features sparkling chairs and décor, painted in school colors of red and blue. There's a separate area with arcade games as well as an eating area.
The bowling alley's 12 lanes shimmer after some serious TLC, Harcrow said.
"We resurfaced all the lanes," he said. "And the pinsetter is in better shape than it has been in years."
York said he was motivated to renovate the bowling alley because he saw a need in the community for entertainment venues.
"I've lived here in Graham for 15 years, and I grew up in Archer City, so I know what it's like to not have anything to do," he said. "My dad is a bowler and he used to drag me around to bowling alleys, and I've always found them a cool place to hang out."

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2011/jan/14/bowling-alley-smoke-free-and-ready-to-roll/


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Josey, Kilz will block cigarette smoke, and staining, fire smoke ODORS it will not. It is not a Vapor Barrier.

That article also claims "countless hours" of cleaning. I'd rather half assed clean it and shoot shellac and be done and on my way....while they're on their 3rd or 4th vinegar wash.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Josey, Kilz will block cigarette smoke, and staining, fire smoke ODORS it will not. It is not a Vapor Barrier.
> 
> That article also claims "countless hours" of cleaning. I'd rather half assed clean it and shoot shellac and be done and on my way....while they're on their 3rd or 4th vinegar wash.


 
You are dead wrong...Restoration crews have been using Killz with great success for decades to seal smoke damage from fires......That company used Killz to seal off the brick walls which is very porous..They used vinegar to clean the brick.

Drywall would not need to be cleaned as much as the porous brick...I've used Killz for fire damage countless times with great success.


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## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

Bender said:


> Eric, how the hell are ya?


Great, Dan! How's life treatin' ya?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

EricTheHandyman said:


> Great, Dan! How's life treatin' ya?


Real good. We brought home a pound puppy 2 days ago. A border collie/something or other. Trying to decide if shes going to make the cut...
Hows the crew?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Josey, Kilz will block cigarette smoke, and staining, fire smoke ODORS it will not. It is not a Vapor Barrier.
> 
> That article also claims "countless hours" of cleaning. I'd rather half assed clean it and shoot shellac and be done and on my way....while they're on their 3rd or 4th vinegar wash.


Shellac works great, but so does kilz:yes:
We used to use in fire resto work all the time. If the trusses were burned through more then 1/4" they had to be replaced. If not we would wire brush the char and kilz it.

I've also used it in some section 8 homes that had piss soaked sub floors (trailer trash, absolutely disgusting) with great success.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I believe if you took a poll, most painters with the most experience would rate BIN far superior over Kilz for smoke and odor sealing.

I understand that there is a cadre of folks who insist Kilz is adequate, but I'm just saying , IF one took a poll, BIN would gain more votes. 

Personally, I have found that BIN and Kilz have their own forté. For my money and reputation, I always relied on BIN for smoke and odor.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

BIN can encapsulate stink like nothing I have ever seen.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

daArch said:


> I believe if you took a poll, most painters with the most experience would rate BIN far superior over Kilz for smoke and odor sealing.
> 
> I understand that there is a cadre of folks who insist Kilz is adequate, but I'm just saying , IF one took a poll, BIN would gain more votes.
> 
> Personally, I have found that BIN and Kilz have their own forté. For my money and reputation, I always relied on BIN for smoke and odor.


 
Far superior? What does that mean? I've never had Kilz fail as a smoke sealer.Are you talking about bringing in a bloodhound as a judge and jury? Ridiculous.What is the so-called criteria you base your judgement on? You gotta do better than say a poll of painters {YOU GUESS] would subjectively pick shellac based primers over kilz.We've already had 3 painters in here who've had no problems with kilz....And these are professional painters.

Adequate? What do you mean by adequate? Be specific and quantify it.{ps, I know the definition of adequate}

I'd bet my bottom dollar that you would not be able to tell if a house had been treated with BIN or KILZ a month after the house has been finished.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> Far superior? What does that mean? I've never had Kilz fail as a smoke sealer.Are you talking about bringing in a bloodhound as a judge and jury? Ridiculous.What is the so-called criteria you base your judgement on? You gotta do better than say a poll of painters {YOU GUESS] would subjectively pick shellac based primers over kilz.We've already had 3 painters in here who've had no problems with kilz....And these are professional painters.


Have you ever used BIN? You seem to be married to Kilz? Bin covers, seals, penetrates, and dries in a fraction of the time of Kilz. How is this not a better choice? I think Kilz is geared more for the DIY'ers.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Lambrecht said:


> Have you ever used BIN? You seem to be married to Kilz? Bin covers, seals, penetrates, and dries in a fraction of the time of Kilz. How is this not a better choice? I think Kilz is geared more for the DIY'ers.


Yes I've used it..It's a good primer,no doubt...It's also twice the cost of kilz..Kilz dries in an hour BTW...Not sure you need anything much faster drying than that.

Again, a month after the house is finished you would not know if it had been treated with BIN or KILZ.


I seriously think that because it is sold at Home depot,you have a problem with it.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> I believe if you took a poll, most painters with the most experience would rate BIN far superior over Kilz for smoke and odor sealing.
> 
> I understand that there is a cadre of folks who insist Kilz is adequate, but I'm just saying , IF one took a poll, BIN would gain more votes.
> 
> Personally, I have found that BIN and Kilz have their own forté. For my money and reputation, I always relied on BIN for smoke and odor.


 
If you are polling, I will be the second to agree:whistling2:


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I really like some oil primers(Killz included) but when it comes to odor, nicotine,body fluids/solids, etc, BIN, with its sweet, sweet boozy vapor, is the smell of success. Plus, the odor of BIN dissipates waaay quicker than any EFFECTIVE (Coverstain, Killz...), full strength alkyd primer. That being said, 35$ a gallon can be rough, but factored into a job, the cost doesnt bother me. Just dont forget to scuff BIN for topcoat adhesion.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Lambrecht said:


> I think Kilz is geared more for the DIY'ers.


Its a good product, I really like the Low Odor Kilz. Its useful for sealing many things, I just dont think Smoke Odor is one of them....smoke staining yes, nicotine stains yes...smoke odor from a fire, no :no:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I think you should tear out the drywall, reframe the room and put a vapor barrier up.

Here's what I would do: Hire the Captain to drywall it, Aaron to orange peel texture it, Lambrecht to paint it and Tim Hag to keep dummaszzes in their place. :jester::jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> Far superior? What does that mean? I've never had Kilz fail as a smoke sealer.Are you talking about bringing in a bloodhound as a judge and jury? Ridiculous.What is the so-called criteria you base your judgement on? You gotta do better than say a poll of painters {YOU GUESS] would subjectively pick shellac based primers over kilz.We've already had 3 painters in here who've had no problems with kilz....And these are professional painters.
> 
> Adequate? What do you mean by adequate? Be specific and quantify it.{ps, I know the definition of adequate}
> 
> I'd bet my bottom dollar that you would not be able to tell if a house had been treated with BIN or KILZ a month after the house has been finished.


Josey,

You will notice that I proposed an opinion of what would happen if one took a poll. I did not make an attack on anyone or any product. I simply stated from my experience with other painters what I think the majority would choose. If you would like to set up a poll and prove me wrong (or right) have at it.

You seem AWFULLY defensive on this subject. This is a discussion forum about paint, there are going to be different opinions about different products. Acting like you are being personally attacked, when you are not, really isn't the best tactic to use. One may be inclined to conclude you have a pony in this race.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

daArch said:


> Josey,
> 
> You will notice that I proposed an opinion of what would happen if one took a poll. I did not make an attack on anyone or any product. I simply stated from my experience with other painters what I think the majority would choose. If you would like to set up a poll and prove me wrong (or right) have at it.
> 
> You seem AWFULLY defensive on this subject. This is a discussion forum about paint, there are going to be different opinions about different products. Acting like you are being personally attacked, when you are not, really isn't the best tactic to use. One may be inclined to conclude you have a pony in this race.


 
Attacked?....interesting view.

I'm the one who asked YOU to prove your claims and you are the one who clearly won't put this to rest or answer my question.

My point is that if somebody makes exaggerated claims like "far superior" then you must back it up with more than hyperbole.The difference between the products is not that great when it comes to sealing smoke damage.

A "Pony in the race"?...Again with the silly comments.I'm a painter not a shareholder in the Zinsser corporation,nor am I a paint store owner who carries BIN or Kilz on their shelves.

Yes this is a painting forum and this discussion is well within the parameters of the rules of appropriate behaviour.I'm not taking this personally {And I don't need somebody to tell me I am},I'm just trying to put the truth out there about this product.There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings that need to be corrrected.If you have any data that proves that BIN is "far superior" to KILZ then my ears are open.

And this is not a discussion about BIN vs Kilz in every application....First of all I rarely use BIN or KILZ for anything anymore...Both products stink and are tough to clean up...BIN needs denatured alcohol or ammonia for clean-up which is nasty stuff...Using BIN you also must be careful of it's explosive properties...KIlz also stinks like crazy...Originally,I brought up that Kilz is used often to seal smoke damage by restoration companies.I was called on it [challenged] by the Benjamin Moore paint store owner.

In conclusion,KILZ is NOT just for the DIY crowd (when sealing smoke damage is your goal),as 4 PROFESSIONAL painters have already attested to.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Did a fire job three years ago. A GC that I work with bought the the existing structure and gutted it to the outer brick walls. I'd guess 50% of the charred framing was replaced. I gave him a split price to spray before the build-out, a price for Bin that I recomended, and a price for Kilz because I knew he was price sensitive. He chose the Kilz. We sprayed 200 gallons of Kilz to seal that baby.

We also did the build out, and I've also worked for the new homeowners. In _that _situation, there is not an ounce of smoke smell. And this is coming from a Bin guy........


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

Bender said:


> Duh


lol!!!!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Also, the DFT is pretty low on shellac. For gypboard sure, but for trusses I like some build.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Bender said:


> Also, the DFT is pretty low on shellac. For gypboard sure, but for trusses I like some build.


Apples to oranges, film build is irrelevant


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> Yes I've used it..It's a good primer,no doubt...It's also twice the cost of kilz..Kilz dries in an hour BTW...Not sure you need anything much faster drying than that.
> 
> Again, a month after the house is finished you would not know if it had been treated with BIN or KILZ.
> 
> ...


Used both. Kilz, you may think it works but the smell will return. Bin is the only product to use for vapor. Bin is different solution than regular oil based primers. Denatured alcohol.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Did a fire job three years ago. A GC that I work with bought the the existing structure and gutted it to the outer brick walls. I'd guess 50% of the charred framing was replaced. I gave him a split price to spray before the build-out, a price for Bin that I recomended, and a price for Kilz because I knew he was price sensitive. He chose the Kilz. We sprayed 200 gallons of Kilz to seal that baby.
> 
> We also did the build out, and I've also worked for the new homeowners. In _that _situation, there is not an ounce of smoke smell. And this is coming from a Bin guy........


Keywords are "gutted it to the outer brick walls. I guess 50% of charred framing was removed."

This would be different than sealing out smoke smell on drywall.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> Keywords are "gutted it to the outer brick walls. I guess 50% of charred framing was removed."
> 
> This would be different than sealing out smoke smell on drywall.


Agreed. Thats the only reason I gave the Kilz option in my price.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

There was still a lot of charred joists and beams left that had me concerned. But three years later, all is good. If i was painting smoke damaged plaster or drywall, I would just go and use Bin and be sure of it.......


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

CPFSam said:


> Used both. Kilz, you may think it works but the smell will return. Bin is the only product to use for vapor. Bin is different solution than regular oil based primers. Denatured alcohol.


You have PROOF that the smell will return? Restoration companies would be liable for millions of dollars in damage if that was true but they still use KILZ on a daily basis.The largest restoration company in my city uses it every day on every smoke damaged job.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> You have PROOF that the smell will return? Restoration companies would be liable for millions of dollars in damage if that was true but they still use KILZ on a daily basis.The largest restoration company in my city uses it every day on every smoke damaged job.


People speed in cars, drive drunk, smoke cigarettes, text while driving....just because alot of people do it, doesnt make it right


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> People speed in cars, drive drunk, smoke cigarettes, text while driving....just because alot of people do it, doesnt make it right


 
You comparing THAT to the largest,most reputable restoration company in my city? ...They have been in business for 40+ years and do millions in business every year through insurance work...4 painters in here have used Kilz with zero problems.I have used it for years with ZERO problems.

Interesting take.

I'll bet that you sell BIN and don't sell KILZ...Money is often a very powerful motivator.I'll bet that Kilz is sold 50-1 over BIN .

Again BIN is a fine product and I would use it over KILZ in other applications {if I really had to}.I prefer to use water based products unless it won't work.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I agree with daArch
Kilz is for hacks, and shouldn't be discussed here.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)




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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Interesting take.
> 
> I'll bet that you sell BIN and don't sell KILZ...Money is often a very powerful motivator.I'll bet that Kilz is sold 50-1 over BIN .
> 
> ...



:yes:


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> I agree with daArch
> Kilz is for hacks, and shouldn't be discussed here.


Now that's inappropiate...That's taking it personal.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Now that's inappropiate...That's taking it personal.


Only if you're a hack :jester:


J/K

Hey man, you totally set yourself up for that one :thumbsup:


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> :yes:


*I do sell Kilz, not the regular, I prefer the Low Odor personally*

This discussion is about the regular Kilz...Sounds like you have a horse in this race.{BIN}

*I agree. There are plenty of water based products out there, many of which claim to do this or that...and we all know it just doesnt*

*Nice strawman response.That response was so off topic I don't know where to begin..Are you against water based paint products?...haha*


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

Shellac= the ultimate sealer. I think we can all agree on that. 

That said, I really don't like using BIN on large areas. It smells, it's hard to clean up, it's runny, can be relatively difficult to work with, etc. Without seeing your situation I am inclined to say that I would use the BIN, and not worry to much about washing, unless there is a film on the surface. Otherwise I would sand for tooth, and be confident that the BIN will do the job. I would be more comfortable using the KILZ if I did a careful washing job.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Josey,

We understand how you feel and nothing anyone says will change your opinion.

However, most posts here are not made to try to win an argument or to turn one person's unwavering opinion around, but the posts are made for others to absorb. 

BTW, did I see that you were from NJ? You definitely have that New Jersey "resolve". Were you born and bred there?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TheRogueBristle said:


> Shellac= the ultimate sealer. I think we can all agree on that.
> 
> That said, I really don't like using BIN on large areas. It smells, it's hard to clean up, it's runny, can be relatively difficult to work with, etc.


That's the truth. 

Gardz is also smelly, harder to clean up that other coatings, runny, and can be relatively difficult to work with. HOWEVER, it is real good at what it does. The product from which it was reverse engineered, Draw-Tite, also has those characteristics, but I would not use something else when they are needed.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

daArch said:


> Josey,
> 
> We understand how you feel and nothing anyone says will change your opinion.
> 
> ...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

whatever

ta ta


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Go use SOMETHING on the walls to cover up the smells cause all this bickery is giving me a headache....


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Tim Hag to tell everyone how friggin slow they are at doing their jobs. :jester::jester:


TimHag doesn't tell anyone how slow they are moving. Timhag hates uneducated people. Timhag hates morons. Timhag will attack if an uneducated moron approaches. I can understand someone asking and trying to learn. I can't understand a know it all asking basic, dumb, retarded, moronic questions.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I understand completely. Let me edit that so it is dead on. 

one sec..


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## Rob (Aug 9, 2009)

Here is one I am working on now. The house next door caught on fire and this house had smoke damage from the carport that caught on fire.
I used Primz Kilstain Alkyd and it blocks the smell real well.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

timhag said:


> TimHag doesn't tell anyone how slow they are moving. Timhag hates uneducated people. Timhag hates morons. Timhag will attack if an uneducated moron approaches. I can understand someone asking and trying to learn. I can't understand a know it all asking basic, dumb, retarded, moronic questions.


You paint in blue jeans and I paint six and seven figure contracts. sorry i dont deal with smoke damage alot. See my photos and realize how small you are to me!!!! 1 up!!!:thumbup:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

DHlll said:


> You paint in blue jeans and I paint six and seven figure contracts. sorry i dont deal with smoke damage alot. See my photos and realize how small you are to me!!!! 1 up!!!:thumbup:



DHill, dont be a hater. Truth is no one cares how much anyone else makes. Take everything at face value and dont let it get under your skin. Tim has a gruff personality, but thats him, like it or not. Nothing wrong with that. Relax, and when I said earlier to paint it with SOMETHING, I meant it. I have used oil based primers for ever to cover up smoke smells. Use a shellac, use an oil based, use whatever. If the substrate is fully sealed, it doesnt matter. As long as it isnt a waterborne, and you lock up the scent, you should be good to go. 

I like kilz, I like coverstain, I like bin, i like xim, I like problock. They all should get you in the 97-100% scent blocking.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> Tim has a gruff personality, but thats him, like it or not. .


He's a pussy cat, c'mon.

But like those of us in Boston, he's still a little shaken by his beloved team losing a big one.

We all get over it eventually. 

we're not "gruff" , just passionate.  :thumbup:

:laughing:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Wow! I probably averaged a dozen fire jobs per year. Some small, some major. Not sure if I qualify on participating in this thread or not.

On wood and brick surfaces I usually used either Pro-Block or Bin, though I leaned more towards the oil based sealers on those surfaces. Walls, painted trim, and the such - I didn't have a problem using Kilz or a shellac based product. Either way, you need to make sure you have the entire surfaces covered. I wasn't concerned about dry times as it was usually the next day that you could comfortably work in the area anyway.

On a personal note: Josey you either need to lighten up or cut back on the caffiene. Bill probably said it best.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

DHlll said:


> You paint in blue jeans and I paint six and seven figure contracts. sorry i dont deal with smoke damage alot. See my photos and realize how small you are to me!!!! 1 up!!!:thumbup:


Dude, you know nothing about me, never will. Doesn't matter what attire I work in. Not impressed with your six or seven or eight or nine figure contracts. That being said, I will always have one up on you.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

DHlll said:


> You paint in blue jeans and I paint six and seven figure contracts. sorry i dont deal with smoke damage alot. See my photos and realize how small you are to me!!!! 1 up!!!:thumbup:





timhag said:


> Dude, you know nothing about me, never will. Doesn't matter what attire I work in. Not impressed with your six or seven or eight or nine figure contracts. That being said, I will always have one up on you.


"Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him." - Thomas Carlyle


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Getting really stupid.
Kilz is for water stains, or crayons or baby stuff.
Bin is for vapor barrier.
Different solvent bases all together. Different solvent bases for different applications. If Bin is too smelly or hard to clean then get out of fire damage jobs. If you want to use kilz then stick to your water stains on ceilings. Nuff said.

And BTW I've tried to use kilz for vapor barrier and it didnt work. Smell came back in 2 weeks.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

DHlll said:


> You paint in blue jeans and I paint six and seven figure contracts. sorry i dont deal with smoke damage alot. See my photos and realize how small you are to me!!!! 1 up!!!:thumbup:


Isnt that you in that other thread 3 pictures down painting in blue jeans? You may want to invest in a step ladder also. And BTW what are you doing in that pic, cutting while rolling or what?


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

This paint store owner,NCPaint1 was clearly wrong and because he has made friends in here nobody called him on it ...This is supposed to be a forum for professionals but you chose largely,[and I'm talking about the mods] to take his side...

He said:

-"You want to use Shellac not Oil".

-"shellac will seal out odor. Oil will block the stain, but do nothing for smell."

-"Kilz wont block odor so you would have to scrub every inch really well."

-"I think the odor of Kilz probably just drowns out the smoke smell. I haven't read anywhere that Kilz is a vapor barrier.....I think the Depot guy lied to you." *[notice the smart azz remark]*

-"Josey, Kilz will block cigarette smoke, and staining, fire smoke ODORS it will not."

-"Kilz. Its useful for sealing many things, I just dont think Smoke Odor is one of them....smoke staining yes, nicotine stains yes...smoke odor from a fire, no :no:"

Now SIX painters in this thread have agreed with me that KILZ works well to seal smoke damage.


Look at all the number of replies he made...He was clearly NOT going to budge on his erroneous opinion but DaArch claimed I was the one being too combative...lol

Either you want the truth or you turn this forum into an old boys club that is closed to new ideas and opinions,where friendship is more important than truth...jmo


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> Isnt that you in that other thread 3 pictures down painting in blue jeans? You may want to invest in a step ladder also. And BTW what are you doing in that pic, cutting while rolling or what?



Blue jeans, yep. But no rolling here. He is hatching. ya know, "x" ing up. This is a subtle faux technique used with suedes, sands, and metallics. A ladder will just get in the way because you need to keep a wet edge.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Josey, Kilz will block cigarette smoke, and staining, fire smoke ODORS it will not. It is not a Vapor Barrier.
> 
> That article also claims "countless hours" of cleaning. I'd rather half assed clean it and shoot shellac and be done and on my way....while they're on their 3rd or 4th vinegar wash.


I also said this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

So I suppose if you spend "countless hours" cleaning, that it will work. Me, personally, id rather not risk it. Hey, do what works for you and your system :thumbsup:

The point of this forum is to share ideas and techniques. If everyone agreed all the time and did everything the same, there would be about 10 threads, and no members. We share ideas and techniques here, thats how we learn from each other. Every job is different, thats what keeps me interested in paint/coatings. You rarely see the same thing twice.


Oh, and Josey, I dont hate you...I just disagree with you on this. Stick around a little while and i'll probably agree with you on many more posts. Some of my best customers, that are now good friends, started out really rough. :thumbup:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> This paint store owner,NCPaint1 was clearly wrong and because he has made friends in here nobody called him on it ...This is supposed to be a forum for professionals but you chose largely,[and I'm talking about the mods] to take his side...


That is your opinion.



JoseyWales said:


> Look at all the number of replies he made...He was clearly NOT going to budge on his erroneous opinion but DaArch claimed I was the one being too combative...lol
> 
> Either you want the truth or you turn this forum into an old boys club that is closed to new ideas and opinions,where friendship is more important than truth...jmo


Everyone is entitled to their opinions. It is when it starts getting combative then a mod steps in. You continue to want to debate the opinions of others, not the pros/cons of the products being discussed. Please stick to the topic.
Thanks


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Oh and that is the handsome and debonair Timhag in the photo, not Josey!


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

RCP said:


> That is your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually it is more than my opinion,it is a fact backed up by 6 professional painters in here,and i gave examples of big contractors using it very successfully...

My beef was not with the product he recommended,BIN...It's an excellent primer/sealer for smoke damage..I never once disputed that.

My problem is with NCPaint1 saying that KILZ ABSOLUTELY WON'T WORK to seal smoke damage...And he repeated it 6-7 times in responding threads...

If you feel that giving out bad information is OK in this forum then fine,I'll let this slide...Being complicit of a LIE is not good business for a professional painting forum...

carry on.......


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> My problem is with NCPaint1 saying that KILZ ABSOLUTELY WON'T WORK to seal smoke damage...


I said that it isnt a vapor barrier. Sealing the stains it will do. :thumbsup:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

....just waiting for the LOCK.:whistling2:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> ....just waiting for the LOCK.:whistling2:


You have all the time in the world to do so huh?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Some days yes, some days no. Waiting for UPS and FedEx trucks.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm waiting to be lent Das BanHammer


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> Actually it is more than my opinion,it is a fact backed up by 6 professional painters in here,and i gave examples of big contractors using it very successfully...
> 
> My beef was not with the product he recommended,BIN...It's an excellent primer/sealer for smoke damage..I never once disputed that.
> 
> ...


I understand.

Tell me about your childhood?:euro:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

*Josey*

You had some other professionals agree with you and some that disagreed, it is because many of us operate our businesses in our own ways and we use a product because that is what we were taught or simply had good results with over the years. 
There is more than one way to skin a cat and if you like to skin yours front to back and I like to skin mine from under the belly does that make either one of us wrong? It is simply a difference of opinion and I have learned on this forum not everything is worth fighting about. Take what you want from this place, give what you want and leave the rest.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> Actually it is more than my opinion,it is a fact backed up by 6 professional painters in here,and i gave examples of big contractors using it very successfully...
> 
> My beef was not with the product he recommended,BIN...It's an excellent primer/sealer for smoke damage..I never once disputed that.
> 
> ...


Josey, you're taking all this too personal. It's a forum. I may disagree with some of the things on here and never post a reply just due to the fact that I've seen many an arguement get out of hand, get locked, etc..

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, just as they are to the products and equipment they use. I don't come on here and say if someone uses a product that I dont that they are idiots, rather I read what they have to say, mull it over, and try and make a balanced opinion on it. Probably how I learned about different products, techniques, and equipment through much of my career.

Use what works for you. If you're open to trying other products, do so. Draw your own opinions from your experience and results. With all the new and re-formulated products coming out, it may not be a bad idea.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

BTW: The reason I don't use Kilz on smoke and fire damaged wood and brick and block, is that over time I've noticed some adhesion problems. More so on the block and brick. It was just easier for me to go to an oil-based sealer for these surfaces. I've also had a few jobs where I had to do a second coat on the brick with the oil-based.

The shellac based products can actually dry and harden to the point where they can't handle the temp/humidity changes of expansion and contraction. The oil-based is a little more forgiving. But, these are just things that I've experienced and in no way should they be viewed as either an endorsement or put-down.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Josey, you're taking all this too personal.


There is a difference between taking it personal, and making it personal. :whistling2:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> There is a difference between taking it personal, and making it personal. :whistling2:


Oh....I see how you are.....now you're going to make it personal with me huh? You're right though.....as usual. LOL


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> The shellac based products can actually dry and harden to the point where they can't handle the temp/humidity changes of expansion and contraction. The oil-based is a little more forgiving.


Yep:yes:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Money bags hasn't piped in lately, he must be work on a 22 figure job.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

timhag said:


> Money bags hasn't piped in lately, he must be work on a 22 figure job.


I have one of those daily!! I figure there's at least 22 reasons not to get out of bed in the morning.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> I have one of those daily!! I figure there's at least 22 reasons not to get out of bed in the morning.


I have the hardest time getting out of bed. I hit the damn snooze button at least 5 times. WTF?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

timhag said:


> I have the hardest time getting out of bed. I hit the damn snooze button at least 5 times. WTF?


That's called depression because your a Steeler's fan. You should stay in bed.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That's called depression because your a Steeler's fan. You should stay in bed.


You know the feeling all too well. That really hurt, still feeling the effects of the after math.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> BTW: The reason I don't use Kilz on smoke and fire damaged wood and brick and block, is that over time I've noticed some adhesion problems. More so on the block and brick. It was just easier for me to go to an oil-based sealer for these surfaces. I've also had a few jobs where I had to do a second coat on the brick with the oil-based.
> 
> The shellac based products can actually dry and harden to the point where they can't handle the temp/humidity changes of expansion and contraction. The oil-based is a little more forgiving. But, these are just things that I've experienced and in no way should they be viewed as either an endorsement or put-down.


I agree. I didnt even want to go into the brick and block issues. I feel poor KILZ is taking a bad rap here. Its a stain killer not a vapor barrier, did I mention that yet?


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Oh yea hey tim hag, sorry I think I got the pics wrong. I thought the guy ripping on someone else posted a pic of himself in blue jeans. Looks like my bad. BTW I usually wear whites but as a business owner can wear a tuxedo to work if he wishes, why, its his company, so no prob with anybody wearing jeans, to each his own. My bad. I owe you a coffee, a water, a soda or a beam. Your choice. :notworthy:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

CPFSam said:


> Oh yea hey tim hag, sorry I think I got the pics wrong. I thought the guy ripping on someone else posted a pic of himself in blue jeans. Looks like my bad. BTW I usually wear whites but as a business owner can wear a tuxedo to work if he wishes, why, its his company, so no prob with anybody wearing jeans, to each his own. My bad. I owe you a coffee, a water, a soda or a beam. Your choice. :notworthy:


It's all good bro


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> I agree. I didnt even want to go into the brick and block issues. I feel poor KILZ is taking a bad rap here. Its a stain killer not a vapor barrier, did I mention that yet?


Burnt wood _smell_ is not a vapor, it is an _odor_


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Why wont this thread die?


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## rws (Apr 16, 2007)

To be called a vapor barrier a coating has to have a perm rating no higher than 1,I think Kilz has that rating but some latex primers do too.Bin has a perm rating of 0.4


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Why wont this thread die?



Then you'd have dead smell....what would put on that?


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Then you'd have dead smell....what would put on that?


Lime!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

timhag said:


> Lime!


Is lime a vapor barrier? :whistling2:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Is lime a vapor barrier? :whistling2:


Absolutely! :whistling2:


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## mistcoat (Apr 21, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Is lime a vapor barrier? :whistling2:


It is if you add coconut...


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm gonna set a couple rooms in my house on fire just to do a test to see who wins. Why let it die, isnt it fun to see people get all worked up.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Finally...this thread has a purpose.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> I'm gonna set a couple rooms in my house on fire just to do a test to see who wins. Why let it die, isnt it fun to see people get all worked up.



Burn, baby, burn....


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## alstrss210 (May 13, 2010)

hes right... who cares about jeans or painter whites i wear whites but only cuase i have to but if his work quality is good an works hard who cares


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

So the smoky rooms have cleared, I'll clean them with some THC, then light a smoke and apply some binz kilzer, then spray some jim beamzer and see what works best.
And topcoat with some thelastamerican.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> Burnt wood _smell_ is not a vapor, it is an _odor_


Nice, I almost didn't notice the smiley face and was ready to post a serious reply.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> So the smoky rooms have cleared, I'll clean them with some THC, then light a smoke and apply some binz kilzer, then spray some jim beamzer and see what works best.
> And topcoat with some thelastamerican.



Clean them with some THC... :laughing:


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