# Why isn't anti-damp paint sold in the USA?



## denizen

Hello all. My name is Jim and I am a general contractor. I occasionally do small paint jobs for customers as a side service. I leave the big jobs to you guys, the paint professionals. 

I have a customer who wants "Anti-Damp" sealant paint on his walls due to mold accumulation. His walls are made of plaster without any type of insulation inside of the walls. Due to the lack of insulation, condensation forms on his walls and therefore mold. I told him I could fill the walls with foam insulation but he wasn't interested due to the costs involved.

The customer has been using the internet to search for such paint and he can only find them in the UK. None in the USA. I too have searched for it at Home Depot, Dunn Edwards, OSH, pool supply store (some sell sealants), and even a contractor building material store. None have this paint. The different UK companies that make them are Ronseal, Thompsons, and Polycell. I know that the mildewcide paints and additives like Kilz and Perma-Guard by Zinnser are only temporary fixes. Also, I have been told that the smell emitted from these mildewcides are horrible. I told him he requires a PERMANENT seal off between the moisture and the inside walls to permanently get rid of small moldly areas.

I am assuming there is an ingredient in the UK anti-damp paint that restricts their sales in the USA? Any other suggestions or a place I can purchase such patient for the client?

Thanks.

Regards,
Jim


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## ewingpainting.net

Never heard of this anti-damp paint. Sound like he has a structure issue. Anything else would just be a band aid. I don't see how insulation would help. This sounds like a job to walk from.


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## denizen

*my thoughts exactly but....*



ewingpainting.net said:


> Never heard of this anti-damp paint. Sound like he has a structure issue. Anything else would just be a band aid. I don't see how insulation would help. This sounds like a job to walk from.


My first thought was a leaky pipe or poor roof or gutter structure, but everything is sound. Also, there are no water pipes in that area of the home. I also checked in the crawl space and it was fine. The only thing I can think of is the moisture from the dirt in the crawl space. I did suggest a 6mil layout on the crawl space floor to form a vapor barrier between the dirt and his bottom flooring. 

I am working in a den addition to his house so I wanted to just help the guy out.


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## ewingpainting.net

I understand, but it seems there is a construction defect. Is there a water barrier paper between the stucco and the frames? Is there weep screed installed on the house?


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## Wood511

6 mil stuff might do the trick, but it needs to be 100% sealed and that's a bear on existing construction. If you go there, I'd suggest the spray foam adhesion instead of screws also. This is the same stuff used to seal wine cellars when humidity is kept very high - in the 70% range. 

As you know, the condensation is forming because of the temp difference inside vs. outside...and insulation is a great potential fix. He may have significant mold/mildew issues deeper in the walls already.

I'm with ewing though. He needs to fix the structural problem as opposed to seeking out some magical paint to cure his woes.


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## ewingpainting.net

This interesting me because I looked at a house the other day. It looked to be moisture intrusion. It was water stained along the 2nd story plate. Looked to be no way the water could intrude. I conclude that maybe the water barrier paper was ripped somewhere in the wall. There was no insulation on there was either. I still don't understand that insulation could help this. The ext substrate will still be exposed to the elements, the 2 different temps will still meet in the middle cause condensation to occur with insulation, resulting in a bigger mold issue. That makes me wonder if their is even a water barrier between the stucco and the frame. If the interior walls are exposed then they may just used the plywood as a backing. Nailing the wire right to it without the water barrier paper. Of course I'm just a painter here and would love to hear what some others might think. As it interest me.


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## denizen

*the only issue*



Wood511 said:


> 6 mil stuff might do the trick, but it needs to be 100% sealed and that's a bear on existing construction. If you go there, I'd suggest the spray foam adhesion instead of screws also. This is the same stuff used to seal wine cellars when humidity is kept very high - in the 70% range.
> 
> As you know, the condensation is forming because of the temp difference inside vs. outside...and insulation is a great potential fix. He may have significant mold/mildew issues deeper in the walls already.
> 
> I'm with ewing though. He needs to fix the structural problem as opposed to seeking out some magical paint to cure his woes.


the only issue would be that I am not certain the moisture is seeping through the dirt floor of the crawl space to the flooring to the walls. from certain angles, the walls look almost wet. it has the appearance of a different shade of paint on the wall, sort of speak. 

from my understanding, plaster walls were used without inner insulation because the plaster provided such a strong barrier between the exterior wall and the interior walls. the air pocket in between was to provide enough insulation. wrong. air pockets do provide enough insulation from my experience. therefore, the outer colder temperature coming into the rooms of the inner warmer temp is forming the condensation on certain areas of the walls. the number one rule in this case is to stop the moisture intrusion but from where? it could be coming from a variety of places. i recommended the insulation to at least keep the outer colder temps off the inner walls. also, why not stop the moisture from the dirt floor below as well. i spoke with the client this afternoon and he seems to have very low funds. either way i believe he is seeking just a temporary fix until then. 

one more thing, he has the old double hung single pane wooden windows we are all accustomed to seeing in old homes. another issue all together.

i am pretty sure there is some mold issue deeper within the walls. as long as the spores from the inner cavity of the walls do not expose themselves, i am assuming it would be fine. i would hate to be the contractor that busts through those walls and notice the abundance of mold. yikes! 

i think the sealant is definitely a temporary fix but a much better option than the mildewcide type paints. the key is the prevention of the moisture from forming on the walls. 

would paint products for marine vehicles work? i was told by a guy at OSH that the marine paints act as sealants as well? not sure if this is accurate information and whether it can be used indoors on plaster?

any other opinions? 

ps- have any of you gone to the ronseal, thompsons, or polycell websites? what do painters thing of it?

thanks everyone. this has been very informative thus far.


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## Wood511

I think the insulation would help.

Take the simplest condensation example, let's say a single pane window with no air flowing over the warm side surface. Outside it's 20F and inside it's 70F. Condensation forms because the glass cannot warm enough to match the inside temp since air is not circulating over the surface and the temp difference is too great to be "resolved" by a single pane of glass. Raise the blinds and now the inside surface goes to about 45F with air moving. The rest is absorbed by the glass.

With a layer of insulation, the cold outside is dissipated as air moves inside. The added layer serves to bring the temps more inline and reduce the possibility of condensation.

In your example, there was probably condensation as well...no water coming in...just sweating. The key is the temperature spread when the two air masses meet. I don't know the number, but it's probably in the 40-50-60F range in terms of condensation formation. If you have a glass of ice water, when does it sweat and when does it not sweat? More in the Summer, right? I think that's because it's 90F and the water is maybe 40F...if it's 70F it probably won't sweat.

Some of you science types can probably better explain this.


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## ewingpainting.net

I understand. Thanks


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## ProWallGuy

What about DryLok?


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## denizen

*i looked into drylock*



ProWallGuy said:


> What about DryLok?


i looked into drylock but seems as though they only have paints for masonary only. no interior plaster friendly paints.


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## Painterz

denizen said:


> Hello all. My name is Jim and I am a general contractor. I occasionally do small paint jobs for customers as a side service. I leave the big jobs to you guys, the paint professionals.
> 
> I have a customer who wants "Anti-Damp" sealant paint on his walls due to mold accumulation. His walls are made of plaster without any type of insulation inside of the walls. Due to the lack of insulation, condensation forms on his walls and therefore mold. I told him I could fill the walls with foam insulation but he wasn't interested due to the costs involved.
> 
> The customer has been using the internet to search for such paint and he can only find them in the UK. None in the USA. I too have searched for it at Home Depot, Dunn Edwards, OSH, pool supply store (some sell sealants), and even a contractor building material store. None have this paint. The different UK companies that make them are Ronseal, Thompsons, and Polycell. I know that the mildewcide paints and additives like Kilz and Perma-Guard by Zinnser are only temporary fixes. Also, I have been told that the smell emitted from these mildewcides are horrible. I told him he requires a PERMANENT seal off between the moisture and the inside walls to permanently get rid of small moldly areas.
> 
> I am assuming there is an ingredient in the UK anti-damp paint that restricts their sales in the USA? Any other suggestions or a place I can purchase such patient for the client?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Regards,
> Jim


Try behr basement masonry waterproofer. Way better than dryloc. In 2 coats it's a smooth finished look and holds 10psi


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## nEighter

Where do you live? Before foundations are poured there is a vapor barrier that is laid down, gravel over that then the foundation is poured. It is more than likely NOT from the ground. 

A vapor barrier is what you are talking about. When you do install a vapor barrier it needs to face the heated side. Insulation is laid into the stud bays with the craft paper facing the inside of the house (the heated side) and it is actually supposed to be a vapor barrier. If a plastic is used, it would be closest to the heated side.

All that said they need insulation. It is hard to say if just blow in would be good enough.

There are various vapor barrier primers on the market. Anything from BIN to VaporBarrier (glidden pro) or even a vapor barrier primer from Sherwin Williams. I am sure other companies have their own.. but at least you could seal the interior walls with that, then paint. Problem is where there is a temp differential there will still be condensation. The fix is going to be expensive. Be their guy. Charge accordingly.


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## ewingpainting.net

ProWallGuy said:


> What about DryLok?


I thought of that product but couldn't remember the name. Haven't used in 8 years. But remeber it is designed for a porous substrate like synder block. It was designer for planter walls or walls with a higher ground level on one side.


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## denizen

nEighter said:


> Where do you live? Before foundations are poured there is a vapor barrier that is laid down, gravel over that then the foundation is poured. It is more than likely NOT from the ground.
> 
> A vapor barrier is what you are talking about. When you do install a vapor barrier it needs to face the heated side. Insulation is laid into the stud bays with the craft paper facing the inside of the house (the heated side) and it is actually supposed to be a vapor barrier. If a plastic is used, it would be closest to the heated side.
> 
> All that said they need insulation. It is hard to say if just blow in would be good enough.
> 
> There are various vapor barrier primers on the market. Anything from BIN to VaporBarrier (glidden pro) or even a vapor barrier primer from Sherwin Williams. I am sure other companies have their own.. but at least you could seal the interior walls with that, then paint. Problem is where there is a temp differential there will still be condensation. The fix is going to be expensive. Be their guy. Charge accordingly.


my client's house is located in torrance, california. it is in close proximity to the ocean, about a 2 miles. i am sure the humidity flowing from the ocean is not helping the situation. 

i'll look into the vapor barrier paint. i wonder if it is similar to the anti-damp paint my client spoke of?

thanks.


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## denizen

do you guys think zinnser's bin primer would do the trick?


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## ewingpainting.net

I'd go ask the 'Pro's' at Sherwin Williams



> Ronseal Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of the international paint manufacturer, the Sherwin-Williams Company, which is based in Cleveland, Ohio and is the world's largest coatings company.


http://www.waytodeal.com/detail/product/8117/buy/One-Coat-Anti-Damp-Paint


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## denizen

ewingpainting.net said:


> I'd go ask the 'Pro's' at Sherwin Williams
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.waytodeal.com/detail/product/8117/buy/One-Coat-Anti-Damp-Paint


thanks, i'll give them a call on monday. glad there is contact number in the states.


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## nEighter

Make sure to post up what you find out. I think the anti-damp coating/paint they spoke of is just their term.. but what the ell' do I know?!


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## denizen

i stopped by a sherwin-williams paint store today and the salesman had no idea what i was talking about. the closest thing they had was for masonary only. oh well, i tried.

do you guys think this damp seal type paint is the same as anti-condensation paint? seems like it does the same thing. 

thanks for the help everyone. my client is gonna have to buy the stuff from the UK if he wants me to use it.


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## nEighter

THAT IS WHY YOU DON'T SHOP AT SHERWIN WILLIAMS! THEY ABSOLUTELY SUCK!!

THIS is THEIR gawddamn product: http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/products/moisture_vapor_barrier/

They are the stupidest bunch of people known to man. Don't even know their own product, can't help a contractor before a homeowner.. just plain SUCK. Might as well be freaking BEHR paint and standing in line at fecking home depot!



Glidden Pro: https://www.gliddenprofessional.com...ce_-_Special_Task/Vapor_Barrier_Primer_Sealer << which is what I am about to prime my place with..

Kelly Moore: http://www.kellymoore.com/site/search

Benjamin Moore: http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpsweb/portals/bmps.portal?_nfpb=true&_windowLabel=FooterContentRenderer_1_5&FooterContentRenderer_1_5_actionOverride=%2Fbm%2Fcms%2FContentRenderer%2FrenderContent&FooterContentRenderer_1_5cnp=public_site%2Farticles%2Fproducts_specs%2Fps_int_primers&FooterContentRenderer_1_5np=productcatalog%2Fproduct_pages%2Fpaint%2Fprd_260&_pageLabel=fa_footer_hiddenPage

it isn't a new product.  you got me all hot and heated about Sherwin Williams again..


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## straight_lines

LOL, I feel the same way N8. If I don't know who is behind the counter I would just as well ask the person at the Home Depot paint desk.

I went into my old store last week, and I swear everyone in there was in their 20s. The store manager was cool, but even he was younger than me.


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## ewingpainting.net

Ya, sometimes they do suck. Sorry they didn't help ya out. I have 3 SW's I can go to that have great employees. My Rep is a great and will dig for a answer if needed. Are you in Calif? Where PM me and I will give you my reps #


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## Wood511

My SW sucks too...kids behind the counter and I'd be surprised if the mgr is 30. My BM guys are on the younger side too, but they are far more knowledgeable.

In my area, it seems the SW store is targeting the HO more than the contractor. BM is tucked away behind a strip mall, kinda dark inside with a few guys always toiling away at something. SW has prime frontage, a bright open store and the kids are almost never doing anything when I arrive.


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## denizen

nEighter said:


> THAT IS WHY YOU DON'T SHOP AT SHERWIN WILLIAMS! THEY ABSOLUTELY SUCK!!
> 
> THIS is THEIR gawddamn product: http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/products/moisture_vapor_barrier/
> 
> They are the stupidest bunch of people known to man. Don't even know their own product, can't help a contractor before a homeowner.. just plain SUCK. Might as well be freaking BEHR paint and standing in line at fecking home depot!
> 
> 
> 
> Glidden Pro: https://www.gliddenprofessional.com...ce_-_Special_Task/Vapor_Barrier_Primer_Sealer << which is what I am about to prime my place with..
> 
> Kelly Moore: http://www.kellymoore.com/site/search
> 
> Benjamin Moore: http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpsweb/portals/bmps.portal?_nfpb=true&_windowLabel=FooterContentRenderer_1_5&FooterContentRenderer_1_5_actionOverride=%2Fbm%2Fcms%2FContentRenderer%2FrenderContent&FooterContentRenderer_1_5cnp=public_site%2Farticles%2Fproducts_specs%2Fps_int_primers&FooterContentRenderer_1_5np=productcatalog%2Fproduct_pages%2Fpaint%2Fprd_260&_pageLabel=fa_footer_hiddenPage
> 
> it isn't a new product.  you got me all hot and heated about Sherwin Williams again..


thanks for all the links. i'll try to talk the guy into vapor barrier paint rather than the damp seal stuff not even sold in the usa. it seems in his case, the vapor barrier would be better suited to take care of his problems. 

i do not do paint jobs that often but every time i walk into a paint only store, it seems as though i have more knowledge than them. it seems very odd to me. i am a general contractor and know very little of paints. 

i do agree that the vapor barrier or damp seal paint on the walls is only a temporary fix. i told him to save money for the foam insulation and crawl space vapor barrier. i also recommended a mold specialist to go in there and test the air in his house. to top it all off, he informed me today that he has several areas of roof leakage that he wanted me to fix. the house seems like it would be a great tear down. :yes:


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## denizen

I just read that the Zinnser BIN has a perm rating of 0.4.

Is that the way to go or stick to Glidden Vapor Barrier?

You wanted to ask you guys due to my limited paint knowledge. Anyone with any experience with BIN or the Glidden? 

Thanks.
*
*


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## YoungPainter

*Vapor Barrier my A$$*



denizen said:


> I just read that the Zinnser BIN has a perm rating of 0.4.
> 
> Is that the way to go or stick to Glidden Vapor Barrier?
> 
> You wanted to ask you guys due to my limited paint knowledge. Anyone with any experience with BIN or the Glidden?
> 
> Thanks.



We recently sprayed a latex vapor barior on a gutted basement's studs and wet paper... recently for an insurance claim type job. But ONLY because the HO requested it specifically. An extremely dumb choice....... Oil and water....... or water and water...... Cover stain would be at least a more effective band aid..... but yes a band aid is all....

Either way I say skip this "vapor barrier"


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## sendit6

I wanted to just help the guy out.[/QUOTE]

No good deed goes unpunished!


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