# PPG Breakthrough new formula problems



## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Old formula (250 VOC) was my favorite until this new lower VOC (50) came out.

Some stores didn't have the old one in stock and tried the new one.

Primed everything with CoverStain and I'm getting fish eye all over the topcoat.

Primer has dried overnight. 
Temp is 72. 

I've done this process countless times, never had this happen . I'm really picky with the prep work .

Called the sales rep, he said he had a similar complaint not too long ago.
Will give me some old formula stuff.

Noticed the paint behaves just like water poly would. If shaken it produces millions of micro bubbles on top of the can. Even if it's left to settle for hours or stirred gently, they're still there.
I can only assumed those are drawn in and sprayed on the surface , causing this.

The paint is really thin, but on the edge of the fan as it comes out of the gun looks dry on the surface.Not sure how to explain it better.

Never had a problem like this with any of the other paints like ProClassic, Cabinet Coat, Satin Impervo, etc.

Not sure what else to try other than the old formula , do a test and if everything is ok , shoot the top coat with it. 

Any of you guys tried the new formula? How did it behave for you?


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Comparing the old with the new, here are the things missing from the new formula:

Silica, talc, and 2-butoxyethanol all not listed in the low VOC MSDS vs the 250.

Not a chemist by any means, but do these affect any properties of a specific product?


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

DynaPLLC said:


> Old formula (250 VOC) was my favorite until this new lower VOC (50) came out.
> 
> Some stores didn't have the old one in stock and tried the new one.
> 
> ...


Hey Dyna...

I've heard of this with Breakthrough (and experienced it with a couple other similar products) - extenders seem to help (I'd recommend XIM Extender over Floetrol), but what I prefer, that seems to help more, is add a little paint thinner (mineral spirits) to the acrylic - if you've never done this, it doesn't take much to make a dramatic change - I use a couple of capfuls, per quart - and the spray comes out looking like glass. Keep in mind, this isn't necessarily recommended by the manufacturer, but the amounts added won't hurt the product, and won't significantly change the drying time - and because of how smooth it flows, the gloss seems to be slightly increased...You can accomplish the same thing with adding just a little ethylene glycol, but I can't stand the smell of it so I won't use it.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Ric thanks for that. I will probably try that technique on some test doors in the future .
When I do use extenders, I always buy the XIM. Sherwin is getting rid of the Floetrol and Penetrol (made by PPG )and replacing with their own , so I got a few gallons of each for 2$/ gallon . Maybe I'll use those before anything.
As of right now, I'm getting some old formula Breakthrough, and spray away. Hopefully I'll be back in business and no more down time because of a crappy product.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

How much you pay for that Breakthrough?


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

35$/g


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Ric said:


> Hey Dyna...
> 
> I've heard of this with Breakthrough (and experienced it with a couple other similar products) - extenders seem to help (I'd recommend XIM Extender over Floetrol), but what I prefer, that seems to help more, is add a little paint thinner (mineral spirits) to the acrylic - if you've never done this, it doesn't take much to make a dramatic change - I use a couple of capfuls, per quart - and the spray comes out looking like glass. Keep in mind, this isn't necessarily recommended by the manufacturer, but the amounts added won't hurt the product, and won't significantly change the drying time - and because of how smooth it flows, the gloss seems to be slightly increased...You can accomplish the same thing with adding just a little ethylene glycol, but I can't stand the smell of it so I won't use it.


Thinner in waterbased?? This is new to me. Could you explain how this works without causing issues.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

$35 a gallon?

Dang,are you buying it by the pallet or something?

I just paid twice that for Breakthrough Thursday.

Also the stuff I used was thick,thick,thick,almost like elasto meric thick

I sprayed it over lacquer undercoater,sprayed and flowed really nice,I liked it,but at 70 bucks a gallon IDK

I'm going to use it for this one cabinet job I have,but if they dont lower the price I'll have to look for something else

No ones going to take mybids using it if I have to pay that much for it

Heck the guy started out at 107 bucks a gallon,I squealed like a pig,and he lowered it to 70

I wa in the same store almost two months ago and the guy there at that time quoted me 53 bucks a gallon


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Not sure which store you're getting it from.
In my area only PPG and Miller carry Breakthrough.

Retail is around 75$. I've got pretty good prices with them. For example 15$/g for their Speedhide eggshell wall paint. The flat is 13$/g

And that paint retails a bit over 40$/gallon.
I'm happy, customers are happy, what more can I ask for?


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Im in California,it's a PPG Paint store

You must buy a lot of paint there


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

propainterJ said:


> $35 a gallon?
> 
> Dang,are you buying it by the pallet or something?
> 
> ...


WOW ... $70 a gal? i hope they give you dinner & roses :whistling2:

i pay $33

.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I get it for $52. The SW multi surface for $34, it's just about the same product yet covers better. No brainer as to which one I'm going to continue using. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

^i plan on getting some pro industrial acrylic for my next cabinet job. I've heard good things about it.


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

PRC said:


> Thinner in waterbased?? This is new to me. Could you explain how this works without causing issues.


Hey PRC,

This is actually an old painter's trick from the 60' & 70's when latex products were not the quite the same quality as they are today. Early latex enamels were notorious for bubbling and cratering, and post-added extenders weren't yet on the market. Painters would add small amounts of paint thinner to lower the film's surface tension (similar to extenders), allowing for better flow and more time for "trapped" air to escape before becoming encapsulated by the film...which results in craters once the film shrinks and dries.

While no manufacturer publicly recommends this practice, it is not necessarily introducing foreign, or destructive, chemistries to the paint formulation of "water-based" paints. Remember that acrylics, and most latex resins are petro-chemical by-products that are dissolved in solvents before emulsifying agents allow them to mix with water...so in a way, water is actually the more foreign component in a latex coating (plus, many acrylic products contain some petrochemical solvents already). 

And while it may sound like just a matter of semantics, the term "water-based", is not really an accurate description of emulsion coatings...it's more of the industry's lazy way of saying this product thins, or cleans up with soap and water - but they are not "water based". "Water-borne" is a more accurate, much better description of the purpose of water in a coating. "Latex" coatings are the only products that are described by their evaporative solvent (water)...Oil based, epoxies, urethanes, solution acrylics, solvent vinyls, etc. are all described by their resin type as opposed to what evaporative solvent they are suspended in. 

As I said earlier, no manufacturer will publicly endorse this "trick" - but it does work, and it's not harmful to the coating (when using mild aliphatic solvents in small quantities) - the mild solvent (mineral spirit), will not dissolve the resin, and will flash off somewhat harmlessly into space.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Ric said:


> Hey PRC,
> 
> This is actually an old painter's trick from the 60' & 70's when latex products were not the quite the same quality as they are today. Early latex enamels were notorious for bubbling and cratering, and post-added extenders weren't yet on the market. Painters would add small amounts of paint thinner to lower the film's surface tension (similar to extenders), allowing for better flow and more time for "trapped" air to escape before becoming encapsulated by the film...which results in craters once the film shrinks and dries.
> 
> ...


Thanks Ric! Good explanation. So now that extenders are available which is superior for flow, leveling and decreasing surface tension in waterbornes? And how about XIM extender for oil based being used in waterborne instead of spirits?


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

I read on one of the other post that cover stain and BT were not a good mix


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

How is this for an idea? And I will try to do this as civilized as possible (for me anyway) so no one push my buttons ok? Maybe try asking your PPG rep for a PPG product that used to be made under the Porter, PPG, and Pittsburgh labels. They may have to dig to find out what label it is now, but if I remember correctly it was Porter number 153 latex flow additive. It actually had a very small amount of mineral spirits in it and it didn't screw with the final hardness of the film. We used to keep a jug of it on the tint counter with a pump on it to add it into dark door and trim colors because it gave it more open time and leveled out better. Also kept well known bubbling products from bubbling when they dried. One of the most expensive components of water-borne paints is an anti-foaming agent that is put in paint so it can be mixed without bubbling. If you cannot take a gallon of paint off a shaker and use it immediately without bubbles in the finish when it dries, the manufacturer is scrimping on the anti-foaming agents and they shouldn't be.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Ric said:


> Hey PRC,
> 
> This is actually an old painter's trick from the 60' & 70's when latex products were not the quite the same quality as they are today. Early latex enamels were notorious for bubbling and cratering, and post-added extenders weren't yet on the market. Painters would add small amounts of paint thinner to lower the film's surface tension (similar to extenders), allowing for better flow and more time for "trapped" air to escape before becoming encapsulated by the film...which results in craters once the film shrinks and dries.
> 
> ...



Ric, you just don't post enough here on PT. Always a pleasure to read your posts.


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

PACman said:


> How is this for an idea? And I will try to do this as civilized as possible (for me anyway) so no one push my buttons ok? Maybe try asking your PPG rep for a PPG product that used to be made under the Porter, PPG, and Pittsburgh labels. They may have to dig to find out what label it is now, but if I remember correctly it was Porter number 153 latex flow additive. It actually had a very small amount of mineral spirits in it and it didn't screw with the final hardness of the film. We used to keep a jug of it on the tint counter with a pump on it to add it into dark door and trim colors because it gave it more open time and leveled out better. Also kept well known bubbling products from bubbling when they dried. One of the most expensive components of water-borne paints is an anti-foaming agent that is put in paint so it can be mixed without bubbling. If you cannot take a gallon of paint off a shaker and use it immediately without bubbles in the finish when it dries, the manufacturer is scrimping on the anti-foaming agents and they shouldn't be.



Is it possible the anti-foaming agent was one of the products scrimped on (or removed altogether) to get down to the "magic" 50 VOC?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

radio11 said:


> Is it possible the anti-foaming agent was one of the products scrimped on (or removed altogether) to get down to the "magic" 50 VOC?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good question. I'm sure there are many here more knowledgeable when it comes to the chemistry & rheology of paints, but from my limited understanding, the omission of 2-butoxyethanol, (a known retarder and de-foamer), would be my first guess. I don't think they'd omit it for VOC reasons though, since I'm pretty sure it's been on the exempt status for 10+ years.

Only reason I know this is because I use 2-butoxyethanol for several different tasks. For paints, I use it to improve flow & leveling, retarding dry times, & helps to reduce the chances of micro-bubbles. I also use it for power washing as an additive to boost my mix when stripping tough acrylic stains, (more commonly known to me as Butyl Cellusolve. 

https://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_A-F-Butyl_Cellosolve.html


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Breakthrough smells and acts more like an acrylic lacquer than any other product I have used. Foaming is always a concern with acrylic lacquers and we use butyl cellusolve to reduce this foaming.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Since it is one of the last things to go in the batch, and it is such a small quantity in relation to the total volume of the batch, I bet they flat out forgot to put any anti-foaming agent in the batch (they are probably trying to use something other then butyl cellusolve since they have changed it from the "old" version). I have seen it happen in the past.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I picked up a gallon today and it was the 50g VOC. Up till now we were getting the 150g VOC. So I setup the sprayer and did a sample. This door was factory finish. Prep was sand, vac and cleaned with Gloss off. Got about 2 dozen fisheyes. Never had this problem with the other formula.
It is also thicker than before.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Yup the 50 is thicker which I kinda liked with my airless. Sprayed the 250 VOC today on some cabinet boxes and it was just like a pigment lacquer as far as consistency...very thin and almost impossible to spray in and out of the corners with no runs. 310 FF tip, medium pressure, barely atomizing, anything past that would run .
I'm getting some pro industrial tomorrow to try instead. It drives me nuts when you barely have material on and it runs like heck. 
Can't blame the pump but really curious how this stuff will spray through an air assisted pump.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

DynaPLLC said:


> Yup the 50 is thicker which I kinda liked with my airless. Sprayed the 250 VOC today on some cabinet boxes and it was just like a pigment lacquer as far as consistency...very thin and almost impossible to spray in and out of the corners with no runs. 310 FF tip, medium pressure, barely atomizing, anything past that would run .
> I'm getting some pro industrial tomorrow to try instead. It drives me nuts when you barely have material on and it runs like heck.
> Can't blame the pump but really curious how this stuff will spray through an air assisted pump.


http://www.painttalk.com/f2/kitchen-cabinet-painting-orlando-fl-34377/


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

How about a capful of denatured alcohol?


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Sanded it all down, and sprayed Pro Industrial eggshell on top.
A bit thicker, better coverage, nicer to spray than Breakthrough....Will have to use it more in the future. Here some quick shots:


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

DynaPLLC said:


> Yup the 50 is thicker which I kinda liked with my airless. Sprayed the 250 VOC today on some cabinet boxes and it was just like a pigment lacquer as far as consistency...very thin and almost impossible to spray in and out of the corners with no runs. 310 FF tip, medium pressure, barely atomizing, anything past that would run .
> I'm getting some pro industrial tomorrow to try instead. It drives me nuts when you barely have material on and it runs like heck.
> Can't blame the pump but really curious how this stuff will spray through an air assisted pump.


As you build up Breakthrough with mutiple coats the sags don't occur that often. We have discovered that your first coat on the boxes has to be sprayed with fast thin passes. I suggest pre dry brushing in tight areas that are difficult to get a gun into. We use the dry brushing with Advance as well.
Typically 3 coats on the boxes and 2 coats on the doors, if sprayed horizontally. Here is a picture of cabinet doors.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I don't know what this is worth to you guys (and gals) because you are talking about spraying, but I did brushout samples of three different paints yesterday over coverstain and when i looked at them today every one of them had micro-bubbled to some extent.
I used Advance, Proclassic hybrid, and Ultraplate (urethane modified acrylic). Over Coverstain that had dried for two days and was sanded smooth. This isn't the first time I have had this problem, and Coverstain has been my long time go to when trying to make nice smooth paint samples. I don't know for sure, but it sure seems like something is up with the coverstain.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Nice avatar, PAC. Lol


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Nice avatar, PAC. Lol


Hey that was a real print add for them a few years ago. Just trying to help out.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

PACman said:


> I don't know what this is worth to you guys (and gals) because you are talking about spraying, but I did brushout samples of three different paints yesterday over coverstain and when i looked at them today every one of them had micro-bubbled to some extent.
> I used Advance, Proclassic hybrid, and Ultraplate (urethane modified acrylic). Over Coverstain that had dried for two days and was sanded smooth. This isn't the first time I have had this problem, and Coverstain has been my long time go to when trying to make nice smooth paint samples. I don't know for sure, but it sure seems like something is up with the coverstain.


Agreed


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Pacman, I've never had problems with Coverstain but I'll definitely do some samples next time. 
AllPrime is supposedly same thing as Coverstain but different label and lower cost . At least that's what BM tells me.

BIN has been a favorite but double the cost.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DynaPLLC said:


> Pacman, I've never had problems with Coverstain but I'll definitely do some samples next time.
> AllPrime is supposedly same thing as Coverstain but different label and lower cost . At least that's what BM tells me.
> 
> BIN has been a favorite but double the cost.


Who sells All prime?


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Benjamin Moore is the only place I know of that carry it.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

This is the 250g Breakthrough product in satin finish. We did not get any sags, but we sprayed three thin coats rather than two thicker coats. We have determined that by spraying the three thin coats you will lessen the chance of any sags.
This product does have a learning curve to it. Much like Advance it can be difficult to control if you are not used to it and are only use to acrylic latex products when spraying.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Pictures to follow. Upload problems


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Zoomer, are we talking one tack coat followed by another or actually 3 thin coats with dry time in between?

And what are you using to spray it? Pressure, tip, pump etc
With Advance I used to do a tack coat followed by another 10-15 min later with no runs. But the softness of the finish and slow dry time made me switch..

Breakthrough is different. That doesn't work. At least for me. 

I will definitely spray it again but for now, pro industrial acrylic works better.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

DynaPLLC said:


> Zoomer, are we talking one tack coat followed by another or actually 3 thin coats with dry time in between?
> 
> And what are you using to spray it? Pressure, tip, pump etc
> With Advance I used to do a tack coat followed by another 10-15 min later with no runs. But the softness of the finish and slow dry time made me switch..
> ...


We actually spray 3 light coats with dry time in between.
We use a Tritech T-7 sprayer with a ff 212 tip at about 1400 to 1500 psi.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DynaPLLC said:


> Benjamin Moore is the only place I know of that carry it.


Yeah pretty sure thats the 1,2,3 plus private label


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DynaPLLC said:


> Pacman, I've never had problems with Coverstain but I'll definitely do some samples next time.
> AllPrime is supposedly same thing as Coverstain but different label and lower cost . At least that's what BM tells me.
> 
> BIN has been a favorite but double the cost.


Doing a little research I have found that there are at present five different Coverstain products on the market in different areas of the country. 
Coverstain Classic oil 100-mineral spirits clean-up
C/S oil based- Mineral spirits
C/S Water based- water clean-up
C/S High Hide alkyd-water clean-up
C/S high hide oil based-mineral spirits clean-up

I went to my local Menard's to investigate what was available in my area. Be advised that they had the High Hide alkyd mixed in on the shelf with High Hide Oil based and the guy in the department had no idea that they were two different products. Just make sure that if you are wanting an oil based, mineral spirits clean-up/thinned product that you look at the recommended clean-up directions on the back of the can. There is no identification on the front of the can besides the terms "alkyd" or "oil based".

Just wanted to warn all of you.This may or may not be a problem at your supplier but it is worth being informed about.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

My Big Box Coverstain shopping was odd as well. They stocked it in quarts, gallons and 5s but they only stocked one version in each size and they stocked different versions.

Meaning, quart was CS oil.
Gallon was CS oil high hide.
5, I forget which version.

Dry time is why it mattered to me. I wanted the regular oil specifically because it was inexpensive, would easily block the stains in one coat, and would dry quickly.

Well the "high hide" is in small print and has a 2 hour recoat time versus 1 hour for regular version.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PRC said:


> I picked up a gallon today and it was the 50g VOC. Up till now we were getting the 150g VOC. So I setup the sprayer and did a sample. This door was factory finish. Prep was sand, vac and cleaned with Gloss off. Got about 2 dozen fisheyes. Never had this problem with the other formula.
> It is also thicker than before.



My rep is curious what color you used. She said they've seen some issues with the neutral base


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> My rep is curious what color you used. She said they've seen some issues with the neutral base


It's always the neutral base, isn't it? ?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PACman said:


> It's always the neutral base, isn't it? ?



Yeah sounds like they had issues with the original BT neutral base too and PPG colorants. Had to use their in-store colorants or they'd get fish eyes.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> Yeah sounds like they had issues with the original BT neutral base too and PPG colorants. Had to use their in-store colorants or they'd get fish eyes.


Wow. That's strange. Neutral bases can be picky with all that colorant in them.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Neutral base no problems


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