# problem with deck finish



## bigbolek (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi, I hope someone can help me. I sanded a deck down to bare wood and refinished it with a semi-transparent oil finish from Benjamin Moore, wood cedar deck. the deck gets a black soot on surface and tracks into house, pressure washed it to see if it would correct situation, but, it did not. yet underneath storage chest it's clean. I'm 25 yrs in business and have done many decks, but, never came across this problem.

I am new to this site, I read the rules and suggestion and it said something about not asking questions or about pricing, that this is frond upon, kind of confusing as I thought that's what these sites are for. Hope I am not out of order, if not looking for some suggestions as to what this problem is, it's a first for me. Thanks Bill


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Im confused..you refinished the deck(you sure its cedar? odd wood for decking) and how long after is this black soot appearing? what did you try cleaning it off with? just water with the washer? any cleaners/chems?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Strip, he lives near me and we have a ton of cedar decks in this area. 

I also have never seen black soot. I have seen tanin bleed on cedar decks that showed up as black in the deck/finish. I would never put that BM stuff on a deck or any paint company products for that matter.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

What is the fundamental difference between products you like for decks and the ones BM, Cabot's, Silkens, etc sell? Is it something you can tell by looking at the ingredients on the can?


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

We have some cedar decks around here. Other than not eliminating mold and mildew before staining I've never seen any black show up on them.

Ken, if I remember you like Armstrong Clark and a few others (TWP, Ready Seal?). Are any of those available from local retailers? I can't do the bulk orders you do. If you were forced to buy off the shelf what would you choose...other than to retire?


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## Steveqpp (Apr 25, 2012)

Could the problem be something in the air? Something that is reacting to the finish? You said there was nothing under the storage chest. Just a thought

Steve


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Sounds like pollen that is on the deck. If the stain was over applied, or did not absorb properly from oversanding, the pollen would/could appear to be soot like. I had something similar in color but it wasn't trackable and just attracted mildew. Under the plants/boxes it looked great. Not sure about the BM product but if there were any oils sitting on top, and if you're having a heavy pollen year from the warmer temps, the pollen will stick/blend pretty easily.

It's a BM product - call your rep and make them explain it - that's their job.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

DeanV said:


> What is the fundamental difference between products you like for decks and the ones BM, Cabot's, Silkens, etc sell? Is it something you can tell by looking at the ingredients on the can?


Its a formulation vs profit issue. All of the oils from Cabots, BM, etc used to be great products. Then when VOC laws changed they had to fill that void with solids (more oil). This threw all of their formulations out of wack. Mineral spirits are cheap. Good oils are not. They all tried blending cheap oils into their mixes and they were bad. No penetration, long dry times (Tony is probably right about the pollen sticking to the deck), and they don't hold up. That is why most of those big companies went straight to waterbornes and/or created weird alkyds. 

Of the VOC compliant oils only Armstrong or maybe Ready Seal are the real deal. I like Armstrong because it has deep penetrating oils like the Ready Seal but also drying oils that lock in mildewcide and actually cure. 

The pigments are another profit issue with the paint store stuff. They all use earth/clay pigments. I prefer transoxide as they hold up longer and accentuate grain better.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

doctors11 said:


> We have some cedar decks around here. Other than not eliminating mold and mildew before staining I've never seen any black show up on them.
> 
> Ken, if I remember you like Armstrong Clark and a few others (TWP, Ready Seal?). Are any of those available from local retailers? I can't do the bulk orders you do. If you were forced to buy off the shelf what would you choose...other than to retire?


You can order one pail at a time of Armstrong from theprosealerstore.com and it will be on your doorstep in 3 days. 6 pails gets you free shipping. Call Armstrong and talk to Jake Clark. He may be able to get you sample. You will not find better customer service anywhere.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We do not tint the paint store stuff like BM, it comes with the transoxide tints off the shelf. I always have customers choose a standard color for that reason.

I am tempted to try the Armstrong stuff, I just really like dealing with local dealers whenever possible.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

DeanV said:


> We do not tint the paint store stuff like BM, it comes with the transoxide tints off the shelf. I always have customers choose a standard color for that reason.
> 
> I am tempted to try the Armstrong stuff, I just really like dealing with local dealers whenever possible.


I can appreciate that, Dean. I am the same way. I have had really good success with certain internet dealers. Pressure Tek, Sealer Store and Armstong are really the only three I will deal with.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Good luck with the Armstrong if you go that route, by Spring last year, I got a lot of heavy feedback and some notorious failures using A.C. By that time I had started modifying the product, I was cutting it 25% with mineral spirits to make sure it penetrated and didn't leave any surface soft resins to attract mildew growth {took stock of the spread rates to make sure I was using the same amount of of stain, even after being thinned to make sure I wasn't skimping on product} 

I also was putting a capful {from a mineral spirits can} of jap drier into each resultant gallon of modified stain, and a full bottle of M-1 mildewcide as well to the resultant gallon. And here are the results even after all that....

The corner is where the customer discussed with me that he was going to brush on a store bought cleaner and see the results - I said sure go ahead - this deck went black by August of last year. this was taken a week ago - about 11 months after it was first finished.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Lest you think you will be supported by the manufacturer in case this happens to you, you won't be. In fact the manufacturer bad mouthed me, said I had no idea what I was doing and didn't know how to restore decks. Interesting. Well here is a deck that was completed within days of the first deck using waterborne defy stain - pictures taken the same day as the first deck. And if I remember correctly - I didn't put 1/2 the effort to getting this deck back up to snuff as the first deck. Keep your options open, and have many back up plans. This product that everyone is raving about online nearly put me out of business.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Dan, sorry to hear about your difficulties with the A/C. Did you have the same results when you used the product as it was manufactured (no spirits or other additives you put in)? I've had good luck with the product holding up extremely well. I will be out this week and I will post three year old A/C before and after cleaning. Since Baker changed their formula to be VOC compliant, I have been giving the A/C more attention. I put 50 gallons on last week and the coverage rate was definitely better than bakers.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ken, I had an abundant of failures before doing all this. Those failure are what made me go those lengths. I wanted extra driers to speed up the drying on the surface to lock in the mildewcides faster and perhaps make it cure harder - but I didn't want to sacrifice penetration, so that's why I added all those mineral spirits - so to get it in the wood faster before the extra jap drier sets it up faster. Then I added my own M-1 mildewcide for extra protection on top of what the manufacturer puts on. 

I don't understand the disparity in what you guys report and what I've been seeing. Dimaond Jim says he sees the exact same thing. And Celeste had a bunch of issues. 
I definitely do not think we are outliers, there are issues with the product. Now whether or not the product is friendly to some weather/environments vs. others - or if there is a quality control problem that could explain this - I don't really know. But the product goes bad from mildew on too many species of wood, trans oxide pigments disappear leaving the wood with nada, all the way to the stuff coming off with something as weak as a house washing solution.

I am taking care of some 'legacy' decks that had so-so performance, but not bad enough for me to change to a different product if I could help it. And I actually just wash them with house solution and it strips 90% of the deck using 350 psi. 

If you held me against a wall, I'd say the semisolids are least worse offenders - safest to use. And perhaps most friendly to Mahogany.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I guess the reality is that all decks are just maintenance black holes. I'll post those pics for you in a different thread by the end of the week.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ken - I am really being sold on waterbornes now, especially Defy. They have a way different learning curve than oils during application - and perhaps don't look as 'rich' as an oil finish. But all the other variables in what goes into making a happy customer and viable deck business seem to be right.

TWP is another product I like, their 500 series has drying issues and was discontinued - but for a 'thirsty' deck, worked well. The other line, the 200 series meant for cedar roofs - is an application nightmare for decks, unless you think pushing around tinted transmission fluid is viable - almost impossible to control the spill off - as it doesn't absorb into vertical surfaces fast enough due to it's out of this world viscosity. 

But man o man o man - does that finish look great and has this toughness in a deck stain I have never seen in my life!!!!! and no hint of mildew whatsoever after 8 months. 

BTW - I think you've got big balls if you rely on that west coast stain, consider the fact you've been lucky up to this point and tread carefully. AC is a low voc stain - so what have you got to lose if you stick with Bakers? I think bakers is the same base as TWP - and so far that's where the performance has been.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Cortisolve is a benzene based solvent that is the only solvent that is VOC approved since it is organic and does not effect the OTC regs. It comes from Venezuala and is used by several industries from dry cleaning to paint as it evaporates quickly and mimics solvents used Pre VOC. it adds $4.00 per gallon of Raw material cost to a gallon of stain. Some manufactures decided not to use it as it would effect market pricing dramatically and destroy market share. Some manufactures decided to not use it and blame the applicator for putting it on too thick in conjunction with the compliant or thicker alkyds. Some will use it and eat the cost. As a raw material it is hard to get because it is in such high demand from so many industries, challenging to make and Venezula has the market cornered. The bigger you are, the better chance you have as a manufacture to get it as a raw material. Paint companies are developing water reducible alkyds in conjunction with trans oxide pigments to combat the high cost of Cortislove and it's scarcity. Some of the paint companies have very good WRA that penetrate equally as well as Pre VOC alkyds, don't flash, and have blended acrylics to control color retention and hardness. Not to mention any brands, but depending on the state law that the products are made in the company can either pay to pollute or label the product to be in compliance.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Acetone is another solvent that is not regulated due to the fact it doesn't contribute to ozone production. The problem is that it evaporates too fast making stains flash upon application.

My dream stain would be an oil with added water reducible alkyds and have water and acetone in the same can. Water and acetone being miscible mix beautifully and would slow down the evaporation rates.


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## leeski (Sep 15, 2012)

bigbolek said:


> Hi, I hope someone can help me. I sanded a deck down to bare wood and refinished it with a semi-transparent oil finish from Benjamin Moore, wood cedar deck. the deck gets a black soot on surface and tracks into house, pressure washed it to see if it would correct situation, but, it did not. yet underneath storage chest it's clean. I'm 25 yrs in business and have done many decks, but, never came across this problem.
> 
> I am new to this site, I read the rules and suggestion and it said something about not asking questions or about pricing, that this is frond upon, kind of confusing as I thought that's what these sites are for. Hope I am not out of order, if not looking for some suggestions as to what this problem is, it's a first for me. Thanks Bill


Hi,
I had the same problem with black soot appearing on a mahogany deck. I used Benjamin Moore deck stain translucent mahogany finish. I had not seen it before but I have heard this does happen to cedar and mahogany. Not sure how to restore it back to it's original condition. The deck is about 10 years old.


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