# Best paint for steel doors



## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

Hi all
I am not a painter but a caulker (hope that's OK) but i have a painting problem.
I am doing the security caulking in a new 96 bed prison expansion, as part of that i had to caulk around the steel window frames.
In doing so the soapy water mix that i use too tool the caulking got onto the painted window frames and they are showing rust where ever the water touched the painted frame.
The painter used Sherwin Williams Eminence hp paint, which i believe is a latex paint, it looks like to me this paint is for drywall ect not the best choice for steel, I am assuming that maybe the paint was not on thick enough to prevent the water from getting to the metal or perhaps not the proper product at all.
This is in a jail Am i wrong in thinking that perhaps they should have used a different product for the steel frames, as this is turning into a big problem any advice greatly appreciated,As you can see in pic rust is every where on the frame


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

it looks to me like your pulling the rust out of the crack you are caulking and it would wipe off(I say that because I see the rust stains on the block-block don't rust) But I'm not there to observe more closely. In A prison expansions I would surely expect that all materials were specked, draw downs supplied and mock-ups performed. What I mean that so long as you and the painter are doing and using the materials that were specked, as specked then it's somebody else's problem. I'd let it be their problem.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

caulkingguy said:


> Hi all
> I am not a painter but a caulker (hope that's OK) but i have a painting problem.
> I am doing the security caulking in a new 96 bed prison expansion, as part of that i had to caulk around the steel window frames.
> In doing so the soapy water mix that i use too tool the caulking got onto the painted window frames and they are showing rust where ever the water touched the painted frame.
> ...


It looks to me as if the rust is more widespread that just where the soapy water touched the frame, unless you got water everywhere. From what I can see, this looks like a major problem with the painted steel. It's not as if the cells are never going to get hosed down or anything, right? 

I'd have to wonder what the specs were for the painted steel...and if they were followed.

I'm not an expert, but I can play one on the internet and I'd have to guess that someone else dropped the ball on this.


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

Oden said:


> it looks to me like your pulling the rust out of the crack you are caulking and it would wipe off(I say that because I see the rust stains on the block-block don't rust) But I'm not there to observe more closely. In A prison expansions I would surely expect that all materials were specked, draw downs supplied and mock-ups performed. What I mean that so long as you and the painter are doing and using the materials that were specked, as specked then it's somebody else's problem. I'd let it be their problem.


The rust is between the two joints that i caulked (frame too window and frame to concrete block)on the steel frame, the painter is trying to make it my problem lol,as i got the frame wet as i was tooling the caulk


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

Gough said:


> It looks to me as if the rust is more widespread that just where the soapy water touched the frame, unless you got water everywhere. From what I can see, this looks like a major problem with the painted steel. It's not as if the cells are never going to get hosed down or anything, right?
> 
> I'd have to wonder what the specs were for the painted steel...and if they were followed.
> 
> I'm not an expert, but I can play one on the internet and I'd have to guess that someone else dropped the ball on this.


Yes I use a spay bottle to wet the caulk or otherwise it is impossible too tool where ever u see rust thats where the spay hit the frame as you can see i had to run a bead on both sides of the frame so it did get wet,but i dont think it should rust like that? Iam thinking paint not on thick enough or wrong paint perhaps a coating instead of a water based paint for steel?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

caulkingguy said:


> Yes I use a spay bottle to wet the caulk or otherwise it is impossible too tool where ever u see rust thats where the spay hit the frame as you can see i had to run a bead on both sides of the frame so it did get wet,but i dont think it should rust like that? Iam thinking paint not on thick enough or wrong paint perhaps a coating instead of a water based paint for steel?


I'm curious about the "rust" on the CMUs that Oden pointed out. Does any of the rust wash/wipe off? 

I'm sure that the painting contractor is pointing fingers, mainly because I'm suspicious that he may have cut some corners. The specs for the metal frames and doors that we've done on commercial jobs have always been thorough: SSPC standards for prep, or field priming even though all materials were shop primed by the manufacturers, ASTM standards for the primers and topcoats, etc.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

caulkingguy said:


> The rust is between the two joints that i caulked (frame too window and frame to concrete block)on the steel frame, the painter is trying to make it my problem lol,as i got the frame wet as i was tooling the caulk


Sounds like you r trying to make it the painters problem. LOL 
Seriously though this is what you do- DENY! DENY! DENY! LOL
This is why projects go over budget and low balers stay in business-unforeseen problems. At the end of the job, typically, the painter is going to fix up all the damage on the job. I'm sure your caulk line/rust problem isn't the only thing that needs to be repainted. Typically every trade has created issues that require touch/up repainting. Typically the painter will fix up all the issues and the G.C will either eat it or divi up the costs between all the comtractors. If I were you I wouldn't worry about it a little bit. It's part of the process. 'Deny' and 'cry poor' is about all you can do.


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

Here is a better pic i hope to explain


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm curious about the "rust" on the CMUs that Oden pointed out. Does any of the rust wash/wipe off? 

I'm sure that the painting contractor is pointing fingers, mainly because I'm suspicious that he may have cut some corners. The specs for the metal frames and doors that we've done on commercial jobs have always been thorough: SSPC standards for prep, or field priming even though all materials were shop primed by the manufacturers, ASTM standards for the primers and topcoats, etc.

Not sure what Cmus is but there is metal inbeds in the block wall that is also showing rust, i think that is what your curious about?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Not your fault. Based upon the story you provide. Either architect/engineer that spec'd the wrong thing or painter that didn't follow directions. 

Best thing to do is decide whether or not to stop with the discovery brought to light or keep getting it done. If I were you, I would have conversations with whoever is responsible for paying you via e mail if you can finagle it. Be clear that as a result of paint failure you are unsure whether or not to continue until remedy is accomplished either before you go any further or if it can be accomplished after. Act as if you are concerned about that (paying) party's loss and you don't want to make it any harder on them by continuing to caulk if it will make the painter have to do more work to fix it as a result. Something along those lines should induce a response that will be admissible in court should they try to play with your money. 

Just don't be so naive as to let them say it is your doing. Get your own paint rep in there from SW and then have e mail correspondence with him as well about his findings.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

caulkingguy said:


> Here is a better pic i hope to explain


Why is their rust on the block? I'd think, from what I see that. It should all clean off with a clean damp rag but I would have to think that somebody tried by now but maybe nobody did.


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

Oden said:


> Why is their rust on the block? I'd think, from what I see that. It should all clean off with a clean damp rag but I would have to think that somebody tried by now but maybe nobody did.


There is no rust on the block that is a steel inbed,why its there i dont know


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

caulkingguy said:


> There is no rust on the block that is a steel inbed,why its there i dont know


On the right of the right-hand bead in both pictures, isn't that concrete block? That's what Oden and I are asking about.

PS CMU=Concrete Masonry Unit=Concrete block.


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## spotco2 (Sep 18, 2012)

Are these not concrete blocks with the paint dripping off them?

That all looks like it should wipe off with some cleaner.

What specifically did you have mixed in your water for tooling?


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## caulkingguy (Oct 26, 2012)

spotco2 said:


> Are these not concrete blocks with the paint dripping off them?
> 
> That all looks like it should wipe off with some cleaner.
> 
> What specifically did you have mixed in your water for tooling?


The section in red that says block on the picture is a piece of steel imbedded in the concrete block.There are other sections of metal within the blocks in the cell that they used to weld a bookcase too, i assume so inmates can not move bookcase or use as a weapon.Possibly something will be welded to that piece of metal in the picture but I am not sure as they are a work in progress. In a nut shell the blocks aren't rusting it is a piece of metal placed into the blocks that is showing the rusting I have tried wiping the rust off with Tsp xylene ect it wont come off 

i use water and dishsoap for the tooling


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## 1963 Sovereign (Dec 14, 2011)

I also think the steel was poorly if at all primed. see how the rust has a slight pattern on the steel and not just a bloom in the shape of a spray pattern , check to see if a primer was used at all .


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

1963 Sovereign said:


> I also think the steel was poorly if at all primed. see how the rust has a slight pattern on the steel and not just a bloom in the shape of a spray pattern , check to see if a primer was used at all .


I know that the specs we've seen for the steel on our commercial jobs always include information about "shop coats" on metal and how that doesn't constitute priming, or how shop coats may need to be repaired or re-primed. I'm with Sovereign in thinking that there were some corners cut along the way. It's now coming back to haunt the painter and he's looking for a fall guy. Stand your ground on this one. If a little bit of soapy water caused that, what is everyday use and cleaning with industrial cleaners and disinfectants going to do?

Do you have access to the specifications for this job? I'd take a look at Section 9900 to see what was "spec'd" for the metal.


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## johnny949 (Apr 13, 2012)

It's all the painters fault. I can tell by that god awful run on the bottom right


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## TNpainter (Dec 7, 2011)

Sw eminence is a flat ceiling paint imo I'd have went with a dtm. But as far as rust goes if they used ceiling paint which isn't case cause of the sheen. Lack of prep is my guess.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Gough said:


> It looks to me as if the rust is more widespread that just where the soapy water touched the frame, unless you got water everywhere. From what I can see, this looks like a major problem with the painted steel. It's not as if the cells are never going to get hosed down or anything, right?
> 
> I'd have to wonder what the specs were for the painted steel...and if they were followed.
> 
> I'm not an expert, but I can play one on the internet and I'd have to guess that someone else dropped the ball on this.


 Ball and chain!:whistling2:


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

Did anyone test for soluble salts such as chlorides, sulfates or ferrous ions ? Water soluble salts that are allowed to remain on the bare surface can absorb moisture, create a corrosion cell and stay active even after a coating is applied.This can lead to premature failures such as flash rusting or osmotic blistering. My guess is that when you sprayed the surface, the moisture activated the corrosion cell. Anyone that has done any abrassive blasting has possibly encountered chemical salts being activated by the humidity in the air and noticed rust flash back almost immediately.
Another possibility could be pin point rusting. If the surface profile of the metal is too high or if the DFT of the paint is too thin to properly cover the peaks of the profile, the peaks will poke through the paint film as it drys and shrinks. Once moisture is introduced to the painted surface the high peaks will begin to rust. A low voltage holiday test could be performed to determine if this is the problem.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Prison specs are usually very specific. Pick proof caulks, lots of epoxy both solvent and water based and aggressive SSPC Standards etc. I'm surprised that product was on the spec. Prisons we have done would have called for a polyamide epoxy in that scenario. Looks like corners were cut as that's flash rusting.


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## nerijus (Nov 2, 2012)

Here in Britain we use hamerite. It goes over anything you like, even rust hardly ever goes through.:thumbup:


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## nerijus (Nov 2, 2012)

If anybody needs any more info please see
http://njdeco.co.uk/Dulwich.html
http://village-decorators.co.uk/Sevenoaks.html


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I thought inmate workers did all this type of work.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

not on original construction. That would be rather silly.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> not on original construction. That would be rather silly.


My bad I pulled a Kev and skimmed the op. The pics did not look like a newly constructed facility. Hence the problem I suppose.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Should have used a different paint.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

dont worry Sean, just grinn and behr it :thumbsup:


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

FYI, if steel doors are galvanized dont paint over them with a alkyd.. Sponification will happen and the paint will peel off on sheets... Alkyds don't like alkali surfaces.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> My bad I pulled a Kev and skimmed the op. The pics did not look like a newly constructed facility. Hence the problem I suppose.


Ouch. I heard that. Hah!:notworthy:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

TrueColors said:


> FYI, if steel doors are galvanized dont paint over them with a alkyd.. Sponification will happen and the paint will peel off on sheets... Alkyds don't like alkali surfaces.


?? Wrong thread? Correct info though.:thumbsup: Oh wait a minute. Why is this thread called best paint for metal doors?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

caulkingguy said:


> Hi all
> I am not a painter but a caulker (hope that's OK) but i have a painting problem.
> I am doing the security caulking in a new 96 bed prison expansion, as part of that i had to caulk around the steel window frames.
> In doing so the soapy water mix that i use too tool the caulking got onto the painted window frames and they are showing rust where ever the water touched the painted frame.
> ...


This being a prison I would "file" a complaint.


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