# [email protected]



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

So I stopped at the depot today to grab a light bulb, and cruised through the paint department. I saw the big sign touting Behring as #1 by a leading consumer report. So I decided to ask the employee which report and who did it. First answer I received was Consumer Reports, wrong, try again, JD Power.....nope. I finally got the answer "I don't know." I asked if they had any documentation or proof of this report, who did it, what it was tested for, and what was the competition. Again....nothing. They had no clue, even the store manager had no idea. So im concluding that the test was performed by Behr themselves. 

You guys give it a try and see what the answer you get is. 

My new slogan "the only paints on the market approved by Chinese Pandas" 

If this is indeed a lie, I may change my entire marketing strategy.


----------



## Sammydog (Oct 7, 2010)

I have, too, wondered who rated them number one...Perhaps I will ask 
next time I am there.

The major problem I have with this is that I have had more than one homeowner tell me that "Home Depot paint is good" and then
go out and buy it and have me apply it. I have only used it a few 
times, but it seems like half of those times I had problems (mostly
coverage issues). Maybe I will implement a surcharge for using customer
supplied paint! I think that I read that here once somewhere....


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Consumer Reports June 2010. Berh was picked as the "Best Buy" exterior paint. Not the "Best" exterior paint, which wound up being California's Fres-Coat.


----------



## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

*Behr aggghhhhhhh*

Hey guys, I have some knowledge of how they keep getting to be #1. One of the highest rated questions is "afforability," and compared to Benjamin moore they are certainly more affordable. Better in anyway...NEVER, but they rate affordabilty and availiblity high and this puts them at the top of consumer reports. Despite the fact that I wouldn't paint an outhouse with it.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

Another question to ask is "when was it rated #1?" I seem to recall that years ago Consumer Reports did rate Behr #1 (according to BobVila.com it was in 2005), but a rating from 5 years ago is hardly something to brag about today. 

Brian Phillips


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/.../home-garden/paints-stains/overview/index.htm


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I asked HD too about the test, no one knew but didnt expect they would.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/.../home-garden/paints-stains/overview/index.htm


I laugh when I see that pic of those tiny sample boards on that link above. There are so many problems with that testing method I dont know where to start.

The first and most important... those sample boards need to be identical and so does the location and a hell of a lot more specific than how they show it in that pic. I can show you pics of a house that has mildew only on two boards but the board 5" above it none. So does that mean the paint failed or not or failed kind-of but not really? Did someone paint those tiny boards with a 2" brush and did they apply the same film thickness too all of them?

I've seen other silly photos from the tests CR does. My reaction was, "you've got to be kidding me". They were using wienie rollers on tiny sample boards!


----------



## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

I don't know who did the "test" but I do know that Behr beats LifeMaster any day of the week with any kind of brush or roller


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Almost any product can claim to be #1. The only trick is to figure out #1 for what. A product could be the #1 disappointment when used and could claim to be "rated #1".

Visited some friends two weeks ago in eastern PA - across the Delaware from Trenton. When they bought the house last winter, the kitchen was PeptoDismal Pink. They painted over it and I saw a pink bias coming through and two cans of Behrly in the basement. 

It definitely ranks #1 paint not to use in my book.


----------



## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

daArch said:


> Almost any product can claim to be #1. The only trick is to figure out #1 for what. A product could be the #1 disappointment when used and could claim to be "rated #1".
> 
> Visited some friends two weeks ago in eastern PA - across the Delaware from Trenton. When they bought the house last winter, the kitchen was PeptoDismal Pink. They painted over it and I saw a pink bias coming through and two cans of Behrly in the basement.
> 
> It definitely ranks #1 paint not to use in my book.


 What was the name on the can of "primer" laying next to the behr???

Oh, they didn't prime it???


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> What was the name on the can of "primer" laying next to the behr???
> 
> Oh, they didn't prime it???



Primer? Behr don't need no steeenkin primer


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

i miss formula5...


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Sammydog said:


> I have, too, wondered who rated them number one...Perhaps I will ask
> next time I am there.
> 
> The major problem I have with this is that I have had more than one homeowner tell me that "Home Depot paint is good" and then
> ...


 I do....I just don't anounce it! There is always an issue when customer supplies paint.They don't get the amount you requested because the guy at the paint store told them that was to much.They buy cheap.Don't check color.Etc.... One way or another it will cost YOU!


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

behr was rated no 1 for homeowners. for example, they rated duraton lower because its thick and hard to apply for the ho/diy crowd.


----------



## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

Our biggest gripe with using Behr is having to deal with Home Depot. The stores are not well stocked. The paint department employees spend way too much time with HO's doing color matching that it takes forever to get any paint out of them for us.

The way we deal with a request to use Behr is that we say 'our guarantee doesn't cover Behr paint'. This usually works for most homeowners.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

As previously stated by Roamer and Aaron, I only use _my _paint. Aside from the paint itself (Behr), theres the wait, idiot behind the counter, etc. I just plain can get materials faster at my local paint store.

I also won't use paint provided by the customer and will not warrantee it. I have no idea how old it is, did it freeze in there car if its winter etc......


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

When a HO request Behr, what do you guys tell them why it's not a quality paint? The only defense I have come up with is the coverage. Once it up (int) and set it seems to be fine. Have you ever walked in a house and told the owners, "paint job looks good, what paint brand you use" then they reply proudly "Behr". Do you tell them their paint is gonna fall off the walls?


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> When a HO request Behr, what do you guys tell them why it's not a quality paint? The only defense I have come up with is the coverage. Once it up (int) and set it seems to be fine. Have you ever walked in a house and told the owners, "paint job looks good, what paint brand you use" then they reply proudly "Behr". Do you tell them their paint is gonna fall off the walls?


One of the things I say is, that I know my production rates with the products that I am familiar with. For me to switch to a product that I dont use may take me _longer _to get looking right and therefore cost more.....


----------



## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

I never bad mouth Behr or any of the other big box brands, I just tell them that it is a hassle to deal with the big box stores. I also tell them, and this usually seals the deal, I know all of my paint reps on a first name basis and can get them to come out to any job to back up their product. I can't say the same thing about Behr, etc.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> One of the things I say is, that I know my production rates with the products that I am familiar with. For me to switch to a product that I dont use may take me _longer _to get looking right and therefore cost more.....


Basically coverage rate that increases the labor rate. As I said that's the only defense I can come up with. Do you question the integrity of the paint? Do you explain why they are not #1? Other than coverage what is your argument?


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Roam I get you on the service, I will do the same as you. I merely am talking about the product itself. I would like to hear a legitimate argument outside of coverage. A HO might think that's just what it will cost to buy the #1 paint product.


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

I get better prices at S.W. which I pass on to clients.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Basically coverage rate that increases the labor rate. As I said that's the only defense I can come up with. Do you question the integrity of the paint? Do you explain why they are not #1? Other than coverage what is your argument?


I just say that my experience had not gone well, and I don't know how CR collects its datta....

I remember a number of years ago they rated a Fuller Obrien latex floor paint poorly. They said it did not perform well outside. It was an _interior _floor paint!!! Duh!

I also am looking for a word track to use to combat the "Behr is the best" line of thinking and will follow this thread with intrest.....


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> I get better prices at S.W. which I pass on to clients.


Reply from the client
"I want the best paint, which the report from the testing say's Behr is #1, I will pay the extra for Behr"
What's your argument that Behr is not #1? (Other than coverage and service) speaking of the integrity of the coating.


----------



## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

My lr still has Behr on it from a several years ago. It irks me that some of the cut-tin has shiney places. I haven't gotten around to gutting the room yet. That being said, considering the shape the walls are in with patches and what not, the actual paint looks bullet proof with no chips, etc..

A few years ago, I painted some rooms in a rental I have that my daughter lives in. It seemed to me I had trouble getting the second coat to cover the first.

Some say a good painter can make anything look good. I don't know.

Like I said, the paint looks stable in regard to knicks and whatever.

Not sure why I had the flashing shiney area around the top in my lr. That may have just been me. Maybe I am just getting better at reading the paint as it goes on. Maybe I didn't tip it off correctly.

Would I use on a ho's house? I would be a leery of that until maybe I use it again a time or two.


I saw a house today (aluminum siding) that I was told it took priming and 4 coats of Behr (white). Not sure I believe that.

Btw, it may have been shady places from the trees near the house, but it looked to me like it needed at least one more coat for good even coverage.

I may have to try Behr one more time. I need to dos ome work on a foyer. The foyer may not be a good test though. It is so small.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Reply from the client
> "I want the best paint, which the report from the testing say's Behr is #1, I will pay the extra for Behr"
> What's your argument that Behr is not #1? (Other than coverage and service) speaking of the integrity of the coating.


The latest CR ratings does not say that Berh is the best. Just the best for the buck. It has to be read carefully. If they want the best according to the reports, they would want Califonia Paints Fres-coat.

Berh spins being rated the best buy the same as being best overall.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I just say that my experience had not gone well, and I don't know how CR collects its datta....
> 
> I remember a number of years ago they rated a Fuller Obrien latex floor paint poorly. They said it did not perform well outside. It was an _interior _floor paint!!! Duh!
> 
> I also am looking for a word track to use to combat the "Behr is the best" line of thinking and will follow this thread with intrest.....


*Consumers Tests *
*How do "Consumer" paints measure up against "Commercial Quality" paints?*








In response to many requests from architects and specifiers throughout the United States, MPI acquired the 2007 report from "Consumer Reports" on paint. 

MPI then sent out "mystery shoppers" in Washington State to purchase the top five products listed as by Consumer Reports as "CR Quick Recommendations" and "Best for high-traffic areas". The products obtained, and tested, were those identified by Consumer Reports. 

"High scores for staining and scrubbing, and resisted gloss changes." 

"Behr $24 CR Best Buy"
"Kilz $19 CR Best Buy"
"Valspar $27"
"True Value $23 CR Best Buy"
"Dutch Boy $15 CR Best Buy"
It has been the position of MPI, as well as major specifiers and users, that paint products formulated for the consumer or DIY markets have different pros and cons from those products specified for commercial and institutional market segments where performance and durability are of much more concern than aspects such as application properties and spatter resistance. 
MPI has requested information on test methods and the 'weighting' of characteristics from Consumer Reports - all without success. On the other hand, the test methods used by MPI are published and are either ASTM, or those approved by major users such as the paint experts at Navy Facilities, Army Corps of Engineers, GSA, etc.. MPI paint standards replaced GSA-maintained U.S. Paint Specifications in 2000. The MPI paint standards are used by both the U.S. and Canadian Governments. 
The "high-traffic" areas in both the master guide specification (UFGS) for all Department of Defense facilities (e.g. Navy, Air Force, Army, and Marine military facilities, NASA, etc.) and the master guide specification used by the American Institute of Architects MasterSpec® call for paints in an MPI category entitled "High-performance Architectural Latex". The UFGS says for "High Traffic Areas". The AIA MasterSpec® says "High Performance architectural latex systems are used in interior locations subject to high traffic ..".
Although some specifiers would prefer a higher gloss and sheen than the "low-luster" used by Consumer Reports for "high-traffic" areas, MPI used the category for MPI Gloss Level 2 in order to provide an apples-to-apples comparison with that listed by Consumer Reports (even though the 5 listed were all not the same gloss and sheen). That category is MPI #138 (High Performance Architectural Latex - Gloss Level 2).

*Summary*

*Only 1 of the 5 passed* qualification tests for performance contained in the test standards and protocol for MPI #138. Some failed cleansability or burnish resistance, or scrubbability, etc. 
For reference, MPI's minimum number of scrub cycles for this standard is *3000*, but 1 of the 5 Consumer Reports "Best for high-traffic areas" products actually failed by film breakthrough observed as early as *319* cycles. 
That only 1 of the top 5 of Consumers Reports "Best for high-traffic areas" paints passed the MPI performance standards does not indicate that the products tested are not good paint products, but it does indicate that the performance and durability standards needed for commercial projects are somewhat more stringent. Until accepted performance test methods are adopted by any consumer product testing, perhaps professional specifiers of commercial products should avoid DIY paint recommendations for commercial and institutional projects.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks BB! Copied and saved. If I could thank you more than once I would! :thumbsup:


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Thanks BB! Copied and saved. If I could thank you more than once I would! :thumbsup:


Here's your chance to thank me again. It's the current list of paints that reach the standard.

And a link to the site.

http://www.specifypaint.com/APL/paintinfo_APL/MpiNumber.asp?ID=138000



*previous*​
Product Index
Alphabetical ​ 
*next*​
http://mpi.rotator.hadj7.adjuggler....648549F56K52434K52433QK21408QQP0G00G0K5243378 MPI # 138 Latex, Interior, High Performance Architectural, (MPI Gloss Level 2) Note: Requires a properly-prepared Level 4 drywall finish (i.e. assuming no critical lighting conditions). See "Standard Specification for Application and Finishing of Gypsum Board – ASTM C 840". A high performance architectural latex coating, Gloss Level 2 (a 'velvet-like' finish). Designed to provide a significantly higher level of performance than conventional latex paints in the areas of scrub resistance, burnish resistance, and ease of stain removal. [Characteristics evaluated include gloss levels of maximum 10 units @ 60° and 10-35 units at 85°, hiding power, scrubbability, stain removal, burnish resistance, flexibility, and application properties. See MPI 'Detailed Performance' Specs for complete details, specific requirements, and/or reference specs.] 
MPI VOC Ranges (grams/L)E3 <51 g/l E2 51 - 100 g/l E1 101 - 150 g/l E '0' - outside range, n/a - unavailableEPR - Environmental/Performance Rating (VOC & Relative Performance of Category+Gloss & Appropriate Specified Use).







meets GPS-1-08,







meets MPI GPS-2-08 for Standard Category: Interior Architectural Non-Flat Intermediate/Top Coats 

Listing MfrLabelProduct NameCodeE Range

EPR
GPS-1
GPS-2​
Benjamin MooreRegal SelectPremium Interior Paint & Primer Eggshell Finish549/K549E 3 

6 
​
Cloverdale PaintCloverdaleAcrylic Kitchen & Bath03620E 2 

5 ​ 

Cloverdale PaintPerformance PlusSuper Acrylic II Eggshell43051E 0 

3​ 


Dunn-EdwardsSuprema VelvetInterior Velvet PaintSPMA20E 3 

6 
​
Durant Performance CoatingsDur-A-PlexHigh Performance Latex1380E 1 

4 ​ 

General PaintHi-Performance 2000Eggshell58-030E 0 

3​ 


InPro CorporationInPro Interior CoatingsInPro Interior Coatings 2500IC2500E 3 

6 
​
MicroBlend Technologies Inc.freshChoiceCostco Designer Interior (eggshell)383850E 2 

5 ​ 

MicroBlend Technologies Inc.freshChoicedesignerPinnacle Interior (eggshell)3220E 2 

5 ​ 

MicroBlend Technologies Inc.freshChoicehomePlatinum Interior (eggshell)3230E 2 

5​ 


Rodda PaintUnique IIInt/Ext Latex Enamel - Velvet33576E 1 

4 ​ 

Sherwin-WilliamsDuration HomeInterior Latex SatinA97W00151/A97WQ8151E 3 

6​ 


Sherwin-WilliamsSuperPaintInterior Latex SatinA87W000151/A87WQ8151E 1 

4 ​ 

ValsparSignature ColorsInterior Eggshell Finish213447E 3 

6 
​
ValsparSignature Colors Hi-DefSignature Colors Int. Eggshell Ultra-White221399/OW51***E 3 

6 
​
Vista PaintVista CarefreeCarefree Velva Sheen Finish8200E 3 

6 
​ 
Home | Site map | MPI Store | Contact Us |

The PaintInfo website and contents are copyright ©1996- 2010 Master Painters Institute Inc. All Rights Reserved.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Got me trying to find my MPI specification manual now..... Where the heck did I put it?


----------



## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

In regards to CR's rating it is definitely a bang for the buck deal. 

They rate Milwakee's Best as America's best domestic beer.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Roamer said:


> They rate Milwakee's Best as America's best domestic beer.


So whats the problem? :whistling2:


----------



## mr.fixit (Aug 16, 2009)

kind of like the Lowe's add. paint while you prime and prime while you paint.
Home Depot advertising a #1 position for anything and saying that it is the #1 paint is a joke. It is like the political campaigns that we all are going through right now they can say anything you want and dont have to have a shred of evidence to back it up. you cn spend 20 years doing everything possible to make your business #1 and if I tell a homeowner I am better than you they will believe if I am a couple of dollars cheaper


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I dont understand why you all dont put "Rated #1" or something to that effect on your vans. Obviously people are sheep and believe whatever is in print, and never ask to see proof. 

You could put "Rated #1" on your vans, hell, even if the rating system is nothing more than survey cards you send out....you're still #1 !!!!


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Hell, when I drive the highways of Mass, other drivers are forever indicating that I am # 1.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Roamer said:


> I never bad mouth Behr or any of the other big box brands, I just tell them that it is a hassle to deal with the big box stores. I also tell them, and this usually seals the deal, I know all of my paint reps on a first name basis and can get them to come out to any job to back up their product. I can't say the same thing about Behr, etc.


See there you said a mouth full.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I see my favorite $16 paint sits right next to Aura on the MPI list of approved. The paint used in most of my old site archive posts. the paint used straight over bare drywall and beat out performance of 10+ primers vs straight on bare drywall.

They sell it too at HD, does that make it bad despite MPI saying it meets their standards. That is the cheapest paint HD sells btw.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> Hell, when I drive the highways of Mass, other drivers are forever indicating that I am # 1.


I have done that to you and a few others around here....and never saw any of you driving!!  :jester:


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> I see my favorite $16 paint sits right next to Aura on the MPI list of approved. The paint used in most of my old site archive posts. the paint used straight over bare drywall and beat out performance of 10+ primers vs straight on bare drywall.
> 
> They sell it too at HD, does that make it bad despite MPI saying it meets their standards. That is the cheapest paint HD sells btw.


Under which listing/specification?


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

JP, could you just once list products by name. Unless you are just trying to drive traffic to your site, it would be helpful if you did something other than just speaking generically while making dubious sounding claims.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> JP, could you just once list products by name. Unless you are just trying to drive traffic to your site, it would be helpful if you did something other than just speaking generically while making dubious sounding claims.


I mention product and I get railed for advertising product, I dont mention it and now this. Everything I do both in painting homes or the jp site is ALL product specific so it does make it tough trying to not mention product by name. Im not trying to drive traffic Dean. I don't sell anything on my site nor is it sponsored by anyone. It would make it easier for me to cut and paste things from my site here but I tried that and that didnt go over too well. 

Glidden Ultra-Hide 150 1410 Been spreading it for years or forever it seems. Seen some changes through the years but its a real great product. Used it in many of the videos I made. It was the only paint I could find that allowed me to apply paint to bare drywall without a primer and produce better results vs applying primer and paint. 

1410 is listed as 1 of only 8 paints in MPI #44 X-Green Gloss Level 2 (its not very shiny at all) meets GPS-1-08 and MPI GPS-2-08

The old pre-Glidden Professional label was sold as lo-sheen, its now listed as semi-matte. Meets MPI # 43, 44 & 54

My bad... its $14 per gallon. A bit of history about how I came to use 1410: I needed a washable paint as close to flat as possible for new construction homes, also needed to be able to apply it directly to bare drywall without primer, needed a uniform finish in a low sheen product on smooth flat walls. Also needed a paint that wouldnt spatter because I dont tape. When most every builder around here was applying builder flat paints, we were applying 1410. The local store stocked it for me and another guy.

Sorry I keep adding to this... there is a ton of history behind me and 1410. It was the product that prompted my first video on youtube. I scoured through TDS for months before I came across 1410. It also had to meet a certain price point for the builder although I was willing to absorb some additional cost if I had to go more expensive if it saved me labor. Many people assume because its cheap, its no good. The whole "you get what you pay for" frame of mind. Not the case here. 1410 was also the paint I used testing against sherwin williams duration home when it came out which made DH look like a bum in a tux. 1410 was the product that prompted all the drywall primer tests on my old site and 1410 was also the product that led me to using Gardz for even better results.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do not consider mentioning products by name advertising. Now, if you were sponsored or had a unique relationship with any manufacturers, it might be worth disclosing that just for clarity's sake. I can see where copying and pasting from your site might be going too far though.

To me, saying you have this great product to use and not naming it does no one any good. Naming product alone is not enough to be pushing a product. If other mods feel you have crossed a line with that before, I am sure they will let me know the error of my ways  Or if you come across as a product pusher, I am sure one of us will gently tell you to back off a bit.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

the glidden ultra hide 150 is decent. I've used the semi gloss alot lately and it has the best touchup out of any semi I've ever tried.


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

briancreary said:


> Hey guys, I have some knowledge of how they keep getting to be #1. One of the highest rated questions is "afforability," and compared to Benjamin moore they are certainly more affordable. Better in anyway...NEVER, but they rate affordabilty and availiblity high and this puts them at the top of consumer reports. Despite the fact that I wouldn't paint an outhouse with it.


 Affordability and"bang for your buck" is why it is number one. When painting the interior drywall where there is no elements the only factor is washability and I think any of the satins work good. I've used Behr and valspar premium paints and They looked the same when I was done as any other and never got called back. I've never seen an interior wall paint peel. Hell I used PM 200 EG to paint an addition for a GC( the paint he wanted to use to save money) And I was impressed. The customer wanted a satin but the builder wanted to use the cheap 200 eggshell.WTH, I think I'm convinced, satin and eggshell are pretty close. What is the difference. Why doesn't SW offer PM200 in a satin?


----------



## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

SW does make 200 satin. Any store can get it. You might want to also try 200 low sheen.


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks for the tip. I'll talk to the manager.


----------



## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Careful though, 200 satin burnishes really easily. Look towards the 200 low sheen.


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

Do you guys prefer the PM200 eggshell or the low sheen and what's the difference? I'm doing some walls/ceilings in a church that are the old bumpy texture sort of thing and a little glossy. I assume the exsisting paint is an egshell or semi-gloss. I want to match the color for a one coat clean-up job. Do you guys think the 200 is all that much better than the 400?


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

You gurs want to discuss SW, start you're own thread.
This is a BEHR post:whistling2::blink::yes:
By the way


----------

