# latex over oil.



## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Ok. So I know this is a common problem especially in repaints. And I'm not new or inexperienced, I've done a whole lot of scraping in my day. But I thought I would post this thread just to see what kinds of crazy, unique, different things other painters out there do to combat this age.old.problem. because as we all know, being the creative hands on type we painters are, the tips tricks and advice we can give one another if willing to learn can be absolutely crucial sometimes. Knowledge is power so help me out. How do u deal with the problem of latex over oil. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes not so much. Sometimes both on the same piece of trim or wall. Always out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered. Lol. Thx guys.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I scuff sand, wipe, prime and topcoat.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Do not trust top coats to adhere well to oil base repaints without the use of a primer.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

paintgurl said:


> Ok. So I know this is a common problem especially in repaints. And I'm not new or inexperienced, I've done a whole lot of scraping in my day. But I thought I would post this thread just to see what kinds of crazy, unique, different things other painters out there do to combat this age.old.problem. because as we all know, being the creative hands on type we painters are, the tips tricks and advice we can give one another if willing to learn can be absolutely crucial sometimes. Knowledge is power so help me out. How do u deal with the problem of latex over oil. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes not so much. Sometimes both on the same piece of trim or wall. Always out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered. Lol. Thx guys.


What ca said......we use cover stain, no need to sand


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

S.w. promar 200 acrylic/alkyd. Try it.


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## lmvp17 (May 15, 2010)

SW has Adhesion Primer. Then there's Superstix which is really good. My fav inexpensive latex primer over oil is GoPrime by Sico. I'm sure there's more but I stick to those 3.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Pro Classic.I have it over all the oil trim in 2 of my homes


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> I scuff sand, wipe, prime and topcoat.


 Proper prep steps.:thumbsup:


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## TNpainter (Dec 7, 2011)

Home depot has a bonding primer that's works wonders latex and yes I've tested over and over again it's called gripper price is good also. I used on stained cabinets sanded uses deglosser and gripper two topcoats of good quality latex and it stuck like glue.


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## wncpainter (Aug 7, 2010)

I am facing the same deal today,, scuff , sand Cover Stain and repaint. Client does not want oil smell.... I love oil enamels and why not repaint oil over oil.... what a pain in the ass


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

For brush methods:

De-gloss either with liquid or sandpaper & use:

SW200 waterborne alklyd 

Corona from Benny Moore

I had a large 100yr old oil repaint all the trim/mantles/ect... nothing would stick to it. I found out they were wiping the trim down with murphy oil soap for the last 40 years

I used SW interior oil primer low odor, & SW200 waterborne alklyd, it stuck like glue. PeelBond, SW Adheason primer, Gripper, Zinser, all failed scratch tests, Proclassic curtled!


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## lmvp17 (May 15, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> Pro Classic.I have it over all the oil trim in 2 of my homes


Really? Proclassic straight over oil? Bonds well?


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

lmvp17 said:


> Really? Proclassic straight over oil? Bonds well?


Yes...this has also been my experience. I do more than scuff. However, I now use the ProClassic hybrid. I'm liking it so far.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I think the promar 200 acrylic/ alkyd is a less expensive version of the pro classic . It grabs on great to oil I usually light sand it with my duster- golden.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Oden said:


> I think the promar 200 acrylic/ alkyd is a less expensive version of the pro classic . It grabs on great to oil I usually light sand it with my duster- golden.


My rep encouraged me to try it. I haven't yet. Thanks for the info.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

TNpainter said:


> Home depot has a bonding primer that's works wonders latex and yes I've tested over and over again it's called gripper price is good also. I used on stained cabinets sanded uses deglosser and gripper two topcoats of good quality latex and it stuck like glue.


 I agree.They gave it the right name!Though Im a big Zinsser fan when it comes to primers I really have come to grips with this.:yes:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

mudbone said:


> I agree.They gave it the right name!Though Im a big Zinsser fan when it comes to primers I really have come to grips with this.:yes:


get a grip mud.:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Latex over oil.I always heard that most paint failures happen more with oil over latex than vice-versa.Applying the alkd when it drys hard, over the top of the soft strechie latex, causes it to move and hairline cracking occurs.Makes sense not sure if its true or not.Care to comment?:blink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I've always used the UMA Bonding Primer by XIM to go over oil before converting to waterbased. Never had a failure.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

mudbone said:


> Latex over oil.I always heard that most paint failures happen more with oil over latex than vice-versa.Applying the alkd when it drys hard, over the top of the soft strechie latex, causes it to move and hairline cracking occurs.Makes sense not sure if its true or not.Care to comment?:blink:


That's exactly what I've always heard.


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

the champ:blink: zinsser cover stain . although last year i did a job, lead paint buried under a few coats of semi gloss non lead alkyd. so as not to disturb the surface gave it a quick wash and pro classic waterborne alkyd and it held up to the old thumb nail the next day


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

epretot said:


> Yes...this has also been my experience. I do more than scuff. However, I now use the ProClassic hybrid. I'm liking it so far.


The OP was referring specifically to a latex top coat over an existing oil base paint. The alkyd /waterborne hybrids still rely on the alkyd binders to adhere.

It would be the same as painting over oil with oil. We've all done this with just a little sanding and a top coat of oil base paint without a primer. I would trust this more to adhere then if it was strictly an acrylic.

So I thought, why use an alkyd then if the point is to reduce the alkyd resin odors and VOC's . Then I looked at Proclassic Alkyd, Acrylic, and Acrylic/Alkyd Hybrid and found the following:

PC Alkyd VOC 458 g/l
PC Acrylic VOC 145 g/l
PC Acrylic/ Alkyd VOC 49 g/l

The hybrid not only provides a lower VOC product, but may even adhere better with the alkyd hybrid resin.

In summary, if cost was an issue and a one coat finish was all there was in the budget, I would feel confident that the Hybrid would adhere fine to a sanded unprimed oil base surface. The Acrylic/Alkyd hybrid also stated in the TDS that it could be used on exterior trim but not the entire body of the exterior. The acrylic in the hybrid is UV resistant and helps retain the color longer then conventional alkyds.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Im with RH- i use XIM bonding primer UMA. But coverstain, SW adhesion primer, Ben moore fresh start would all work as well. scuff sand first, sand lightly after prime. finish, 220 sand lightly, 2nd coat finish.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

StripandCaulk said:


> Im with RH- i use XIM bonding primer UMA. But coverstain, SW adhesion primer, Ben moore fresh start would all work as well. scuff sand first, sand lightly after prime. finish, 220 sand lightly, 2nd coat finish.


Though this is the best method, many HOs are not willing to pay the labor to do it. That's why so many have had to find less labor-intensive methods and still get a decent quality result. Think about going in a house that's occupied and start prepping all the base, then priming, then sanding, and so on.
One or two rooms wouldn't be so bad, but a whole house is killer.

To the OP-I use denatured alcohol on the trim to see just how well the mystery coat sticks by wiping a clean rag soaked in it on a spot. Wait 20 seconds and wipe with dry cloth and see if it shines or gets gummy.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

mudbone said:


> Latex over oil.I always heard that most paint failures happen more with oil over latex than vice-versa.Applying the alkd when it drys hard, over the top of the soft strechie latex, causes it to move and hairline cracking occurs.Makes sense not sure if its true or not.Care to comment?:blink:


Wow. Thank u! I think u may have just answered a completely different problem I've been dealing with in my own house in the bathroom. When I moved in I stripped some horrible ugly foam fish wallpaper off the one main wall and then prepped and top coated all the walls with generals hp 2000. About 4 months later all of a sudden I started noticing all this strange cracking going on all over the place. Ok let me just stop for one second there amd mention that when I say I prepped and painted I mean I did use a primer first before top coating. I think it might have been killz. Anyways, all the walls started getting this weird cracking sort of like that crackle effect stuff u can get to make furniture and craft items look old. Faux finish kind of deal. I had never seen anything such as this before and so I ended up spending two months (time was an issue as I'm a single mom who works full.time) and I scraped about ten coats of paint off the three little walls and then pretty much gave up after that when it came to the big one. too messy, gross labour intensive and noisy with a year and a half year old sleeping in the next room. One of the drywallers I work closely with offered to come skim out the entire wall so I sanded the rough edges off with a screen and he mudded it. Then I primed it once again this time using a latex primer sealer and top coated with hp and it looked beautiful. For about 3 months. When the cracking started all over again. Incidently I gave up on it totally out of complete frustration and it now looks really gross every time I bath my kid I end up picking at spots and it just looks awful. So I'm wondering now.after reading ur post if this is what the problem might be.....


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

mudbone said:


> Latex over oil.I always heard that most paint failures happen more with oil over latex than vice-versa.Applying the alkd when it drys hard, over the top of the soft strechie latex, causes it to move and hairline cracking occurs.Makes sense not sure if its true or not.Care to comment?:blink:


Wow. Thank u! I think u may have just answered a completely different problem I've been dealing with in my own house in the bathroom. When I moved in I stripped some horrible ugly foam fish wallpaper off the one main wall and then prepped and top coated all the walls with generals hp 2000. About 4 months later all of a sudden I started noticing all this strange cracking going on all over the place. Ok let me just stop for one second there amd mention that when I say I prepped and painted I mean I did use a primer first before top coating. I think it might have been killz. Anyways, all the walls started getting this weird cracking sort of like that crackle effect stuff u can get to make furniture and craft items look old. Faux finish kind of deal. I had never seen anything such as this before and so I ended up spending two months (time was an issue as I'm a single mom who works full.time) and I scraped about ten coats of paint off the three little walls and then pretty much gave up after that when it came to the big one. too messy, gross labour intensive and noisy with a year and a half year old sleeping in the next room. One of the drywallers I work closely with offered to come skim out the entire wall so I sanded the rough edges off with a screen and he mudded it. Then I primed it once again this time using a latex primer sealer and top coated with hp and it looked beautiful. For about 3 months. When the cracking started all over again. Incidently I gave up on it totally out of complete frustration and it now looks really gross every time I bath my kid I end up picking at spots and it just looks awful. So I'm wondering now.after reading ur post if this is what the problem might be.....


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

So I guess the only question I have left after all of ur wonderful advice is the methods of prep u use before u prime and topcoat. I was under the impression that all the latex had to be removed before u could sand and prime and top coat. And that simply sanding the latex paint and then priming still didn't resolve the problem it basically just added another coat of primer over paint that was still not sticking in the first place. I'm sorry was that totally confusing? Lol. I was trying not to get all wordy but I think I failed miserably there. My apologies. For example, in the photo I have, that was a piece of trim on a doorframe in one house I did some work at. I took that strip off using only my fingernail. I ended up scrapeingp all of that latex off on all the trim in the house. Is it possible I could have just scuffed and primied it instead and I didn't actually need to remove the original latex over the oil at all?:confused1:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

the cracking sounds like it may be from the wallpaper paste residue that could have been left on the wall. 

Hard to say without good solid information.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> the cracking sounds like it may be from the wallpaper paste residue that could have been left on the wall.
> 
> Hard to say without good solid information.


What other information do u need? The cracking also occurred on walls that there was no wallpaper on. The ones I spent months removing layers of paint from. Those walls r still fine to this day now. No cracking on any of them. I will post a picture on here in a few minsbmaybe someone can tell what it is.....


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

If all the paper paste was not removed and then primed with either Gardz ( my preference) or a good sealing oil to make a vapor barrier- any new waterborne paint + humidity will reactivate the paste and you will have exactly what I think you are describing. 
Gardz will take care of it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

paintgurl said:


> What other information do u need? The cracking also occurred on walls that there was no wallpaper on. The ones I spent months removing layers of paint from. Those walls r still fine to this day now. No cracking on any of them.


Ok so you removed layers of paint from the walls before priming?

What type of walls are they? Plaster? I got a feeling it was plaster. 

What prep did you do? Just prime? What type of primer? Oil or waterbase?

If the paint was failing before you paonted chances are the old paint is causing failure of the new. Or the existing problem before painting is still causing problems.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

WTG, TJ

Now turn the lamp so it shines in her face, and make her watch you pour some water!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> WTG, TJ
> 
> Now turn the lamp so it shines in her face, and make her watch you pour some water!


Just a sec, gotta put my boy down for his nap. He doesn't want to nap though, he wants to run around and try to break my computer when I'm refilling my coffee...


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> Just a sec, gotta put my boy down for his nap. He doesn't want to nap though, he wants to run around and try to break my computer when I'm refilling my coffee...


 :no: some Gestapo-like interrogator you turned out to be.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> :no: some Gestapo-like interrogator you turned out to be.


Sorry, just was watching dragnet and the show must be carrying over to PT.:blink:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

...from the time we put it on in the morning, until the time we take it off at night...we've seen it all, we've heard it all. We're painters.

My apologies to the OP.

Over and out


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> ...from the time we put it on in the morning, until the time we take it off at night...we've seen it all, we've heard it all. We're painters.
> 
> My apologies to the OP.
> 
> Over and out


are you getting philomensophical on us?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> are you getting philomensophical on us?


:blink: I don't think so.

I was only taking up space while paintgurl prepared a response(s) to your question-barrage.

I hope I didn't chase her off before she even realized she should just be ignoring me.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

On topic, I've scuffed sanded, tacked and applied signature select over trim a dozen times and never had a call back. Tried Proclassic for the first time on some louvered doors today and I'm not concerned about failure. Though maybe runs that crap sagged like a mopho.

It's all about the surface prep.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

TJ Paint;294722[COLOR=red said:


> ]the cracking sounds like it may be from the wallpaper paste residue that could have been left on the wall.[/COLOR]
> 
> Hard to say without good solid information.


 
exactly:thumbsup::notworthy:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> :blink: I don't think so.
> 
> I was only taking up space while paintgurl prepared a response(s) to your question-barrage.
> 
> I hope I didn't chase her off before she even realized she should just be ignoring me.


Goodpoint.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I think we all have been inadvertently detoured as far as the OP topic/question is concerned.

It don't sound like this paint failure has to do with painted trim. It sounds like the walls are the issue.

Yeah, pretty basic for painting over oil. Clean, sand, prime, paint.

That's not the problem the op has.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I thought we are painters... Intermediate coat when in doubt or use Hybrid Alkyd straight over oil with no issues. I don't risk Acrylic paint over oil anymore. . I don't care what the MFG says. WB primers over wallpaper paste is a recipe for a callback in a humid area.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I think we all have been inadvertently detoured as far as the OP topic/question is concerned.
> 
> That's not the problem the op has.


Sorry, TJ...but I didn't really even SEE a problem mentioned in the OP.

Just that the OP was curious about what "people" did for latex/oil.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow. Boy did this post end up in left field and back again. Lol. Partly my fault for.sure. yes originally all I was asking was what everyone did when it came to the latex over oil thing. I was merely curious and wanting to find out everyone's thoughts and ideas. I got sidetracked on the issue with my bathroom. That was my fault. Lol. Oops. Sorry guys.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

That's ok this time.

But we don't much care for troublemakers around here.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

So, did you ever get the bathroom walls figured out?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

paintgurl said:


> Wow. Boy did this post end up in left field and back again. Lol. Partly my fault for.sure. yes originally all I was asking was what everyone did when it came to the latex over oil thing. I was merely curious and wanting to find out everyone's thoughts and ideas. I got sidetracked on the issue with my bathroom. That was my fault. Lol. Oops. Sorry guys.


Personally *I* was never sidetracked by all the irrelevant posts. I completely understood what you were asking from the very beginning and homed in on the salient point like an inter continental missile. :yes: :whistling2: :blink:


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

paintgurl said:


> So I guess the only question I have left after all of ur wonderful advice is the methods of prep u use before u prime and topcoat. I was under the impression that all the latex had to be removed before u could sand and prime and top coat. And that simply sanding the latex paint and then priming still didn't resolve the problem it basically just added another coat of primer over paint that was still not sticking in the first place
> 
> 
> But what about this question. no ones ansewred this yet


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HQP2005 said:


> paintgurl said:
> 
> 
> > So I guess the only question I have left after all of ur wonderful advice is the methods of prep u use before u prime and topcoat. I was under the impression that all the latex had to be removed before u could sand and prime and top coat. And that simply sanding the latex paint and then priming still didn't resolve the problem it basically just added another coat of primer over paint that was still not sticking in the first place
> ...


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

paintgurl said:


> I was under the impression that all the latex had to be removed before u could sand and prime and top coat. And that simply sanding the latex paint and then priming still didn't resolve the problem it basically just added another coat of primer over paint that was still not sticking in the first place.


Im not trying to beat a dead horse, but im curious about this. Ive seen this alot, some has gone over oil w/ latex and would usaully remove whats loose, sand and prime. But what about what not loose? Are you saying the "right" thing to do is sand back down to the oil or just scuff the latex that is not loose.
just trying to clarify


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HQP2005 said:


> Im not trying to beat a dead horse, but im curious about this. Ive seen this alot, some has gone over oil w/ latex and would usaully remove whats loose, sand and prime. But what about what not loose? Are you saying the "right" thing to do is sand back down to the oil or just scuff the latex that is not loose.
> just trying to clarify


Not at all. I was responding to the original post. I think another issue has since been raised (the cracking). Others have addressed that as well as they can for now with the information supplied. 
Latex over poorly prepped oil can be a real b!tch.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Ok. Yes. The cracking issue. No I've no idea what the heck it is. I've never seen anything quite like it so if anyone out there has any ideas pls put them out there coz I've about given up on it. Well. I have given up on it so my bathroom is in a state of frightening and has been for a long time. Not good. Lol. I've attached two images. They r both the same except I've enhanced the one so u can really see what it looks like on an up close and personal kind of level.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Oh and just to clarify the same thing is also happening on the door of the cabinet that is built into the bathroom as well. Pls ask me any questions u have I will be more than happy to fill u guys in. If someone can help me solve this mystery I'll......hmmm. be forever greatful? Lol. Pretty lame incentive I guess eh? Ha ha ha.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Welp..Got me. 

I don't think it's a wallpaper-paste issue anymore. (I did..so did TJ though)

Damn TJ...


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

HQP2005 said:


> Im not trying to beat a dead horse, but im curious about this. Ive seen this alot, some has gone over oil w/ latex and would usaully remove whats loose, sand and prime. But what about what not loose? Are you saying the "right" thing to do is sand back down to the oil or just scuff the latex that is not loose.
> just trying to clarify


I've always thought it best to get as much of that latex off as possible even if it involves a little more time and effort. However I've worked for a company who just filled where the loose stuff had come off easily and then primed and painted. Maybe there is no right answer. But as a matter of personal preference I try to take as much of the latex off as possible. I once had to do a bathroom in an old heritage house where the homeowner had painted everything (coves ceiling and all) with latex. Over oil of course. Every time the guy had a shower the paint would lift and bubble. Well no one actually informed us of this beforehand so I was in there prepping the trim and my putty knife slipped off and nicked the wall. And peeled a large strip off. Oh crap. Long story short I ended up stripping all the latex off the ceiling walls and trim. It took me about a week to do it too. Everywhere the guy had done any patching of course the latex was stuck on good. Everywhere else it came off with only a small amount of effort. It still sucked. By the end if the week I had a bottle of goof off and a spray nozzle and sprayed and scraped it all back down to the oil. It was nasty. Horrible. Gross. And I never want to do it again. Lol. I probably didn't need to get that anal about it. I was only in my 4 th year or so of painting so I had never seen anything like that before.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

PG..is it doing this on interior AND exterior walls?


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> Welp..Got me.
> 
> I don't think it's a wallpaper-paste issue anymore. (I did..so did TJ though)
> 
> Damn TJ...


Oh Lord don't say that. Actually. It gives me some peace of mind coz if it was a wallpaper paste issue that woulda been my fault. Lol. And I really didn't want that. Lol. Have u ever seen anything like that before? Seriously messed up. I can't even put wallpaper back over it those cracks r raised right up off the wall. I don't know what to do Bout it.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

paintgurl said:


> Oh Lord don't say that. Actually. It gives me some peace of mind coz if it was a wallpaper paste issue that woulda been my fault.


You did (at least)attempt to remove the remaining/old paste though..right?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You said you did thoroughly clean the walls and used a quality bonding primer prior to top coating right?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm kinda stumped.

I have seen that kind of cracking before...but I don't remember where, or what I thought at the time had caused it.

sorry I can't be of more help.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Nope. Just the interior. Mind u, the exterior wall I spent months scraping layer upon layer of paint off. Right back down to the actual original board underneath. Must have been at least ten coats of paint on there. And what is under it all is this weird super shiny smooth looking wallboard. Plaster for sure. But those walls r the only ones not cracking now. So really I guess I know what I have to do. And damnnit I just don't want to. Lol. But it still leaves me wondering exactly what it is that's causing the problem. U know what I mean?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Tell me this...when you're removing fingernail polish in there...do you ever throw your acetone on the walls?


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Yes I totally removed the paste. Sanded like a mother and then primed it all with killz before I top coated with hp 2000 from general paint which is supposed to be good to go over oil and metal with no primer ( although I still wouldn't trust it) personally


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Very interesting...thanks for the pics. I think I've spent more time looking at them than any others I've ever seen posted here.

There are some pretty knowledgeable folks here...I bet they can figure it out for ya.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> Tell me this...when you're removing fingernail polish in there...do you ever throw your acetone on the walls?


Lmao. Sorry. The only colour my fingernails ever see is whatever colours I happen to be painting that day, and whatever colour the stain was that I used during that week that got stuck under there. I don't even own a bottle of polish or remover. However I do use the little pads once in a while to test whether someone's paint is latex or oil if I'm at all in question about it. Lol.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

I've seen it before. It was wallpaper over horsehair plaster. The wallpaper was stripped. The walls were stick sanded..which removed any and all adhesive because the walls were crumbling but still intact..meaning no gaping holes/buttons needed to hold the plaster to the studs/slats. 

The walls were then painted with a "self-priming" and "ceramic reinforced" paint. Within a year, the walls looked like your bathroom walls do.

Are you absolutely certain that you primed before you painted? The pictures you posted look exactly like old plaster coated with a newer latex paint without a primer. Not judging if you didn't prime..lots of people do this. 

It's not a fun clean up either way.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

It's all good Steve Richards. Lol. I appreciate u taking the time to look at the pictures and pick on me a little. Even if my bathroom is still an unsolved.mystery at least I got a few laughs in anyways. Lol.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Csheils said:


> I've seen it before. It was wallpaper over horsehair plaster. The wallpaper was stripped. The walls were stick sanded..which removed any and all adhesive because the walls were crumbling but still intact..meaning no gaping holes/buttons needed to hold the plaster to the studs/slats.
> 
> The walls were then painted with a "self-priming" and "ceramic reinforced" paint. Within a year, the walls looked like your bathroom walls do.
> 
> ...


Absolutely 110% positive. I prime everything. Always. My boss at work absolutely hates me for it too. But yes I primed it with a product called killz.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

Oh let me just mention the house is a rental. So whatever was put on there before the wallpaper that I removed I couldn't tell u. But that's why I thought I would be safe by priming it with the product I chose.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Right. I've never used kilz for something like that, so I can't give a response from experience. 

It looks like either a no primer jobber, or it was skimmed with junk jc after a prime, without a re-prime before a topcoat. I know you said you primed it, I'm just saying that this is what it looks like. It could totally be a structural issue, who knows.

The other option is..it's brown board acting as a wick with either some kind of leak from above or below. That'll cause failure..just odd the way the paint is curling the way parched land does, especially in a moist room. But it happens.

Wash your hands. Tell the landlord to fix it. Maybe you'll get a whole new bathroom out of it.

Good luck.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Pic 2, is the black stuff mold, or shadowing?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

paintgurl said:


> Absolutely 110% positive. I prime everything. Always. My boss at work absolutely hates me for it too. But yes I primed it with a product called killz.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> there is no such product:blink:
> ...


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

paintgurl said:


> Ok. Yes. The cracking issue. No I've no idea what the heck it is. I've never seen anything quite like it so if anyone out there has any ideas pls put them out there coz I've about given up on it. Well. I have given up on it so my bathroom is in a state of frightening and has been for a long time. Not good. Lol. I've attached two images. They r both the same except I've enhanced the one so u can really see what it looks like on an up close and personal kind of level.


 
Still looks like painted over paste to me:yes:


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I have seen similar cracking in bathrooms, specifically in rental bathrooms... I think it may be layers of soap,shampoo etc. from the 1000s of showers building up on the walls. Maybe mildew that is living underneath as well. I say this because whenever I have seen this type of cracking and looked underneath after scraping, there was usually some mildew. 
Scrape it again,(although there are lot of layers now) wash it with Moldex or other ammonium sulfate product, patch, prime, paint.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Still looks like painted over paste to me:yes:


Maybe if it was newly applied paste... put on nice and thick, and then painted over while it was still wet.

(I do that sometimes)


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

kdpaint said:


> I have seen similar cracking in bathrooms, specifically in rental bathrooms... I think it may be layers of soap,shampoo etc. from the 1000s of showers building up on the walls.


Good point.

I imagine shampoo/soap on the wall, primed with (any) latex primer, might result it what her pictures show.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

chrisn said:


> paintgurl said:
> 
> 
> > Absolutely 110% positive. I prime everything. Always. My boss at work absolutely hates me for it too. But yes I primed it with a product called killz.[/QUOTE]
> ...


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

paintgurl said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> > Ok pls excuse my spelling. It was kilz. I believe is a shellac based product. But let me check my basement first before u quote me on this. And believe me if I didn't prime it then I would know what the problem was and why it was happening and I wouldn't be on here asking any of u respectable painters anything about it out of complete embarrassment in making such a newbie mistake. Lol. I'm just saying. What I'm wondering is if maybe the problem was there before hence the hideous padded foam fish wallpaper that was on there when I moved in. The black and white photo is just one I've enhanced. It just did that to try and give a sharper image because the original was kind of hard to see I thought. I'm gonna post a few more pictures now my kid is down for a nap in hopes of giving u all a clearer idea of what is going on. Bear with me guys. Thx.
> ...


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)




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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

You try to talk like a pro- but you seem to not now much about products or problems. Paintgirl- I believe you are a DIY. Not a problem, but you do not seem like a pro.
JMO


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## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

just going to throw this out there....is that room vent properly...Bath fan that is working cause it sure looks like high moisture levels to me.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

From the looks of those pics I would say it looks alot like paintcurl paintgurl.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Irrespective of whether the problem was there before or not you should not have this happening if you performed the steps you've described.

So now what? Obviously you'll have to scrape and sand to get off the failing paint. Once again, wash the surface down with a well performing cleanser (TSP or Krudcutter) and allow to dry thoroughly. I'd apply a high quality bonding primer like XIM UMA bonding primer. A bit spendy but pretty much the final answer in dealing with adhesion problems. I'd then let the primed surface go a week or so to see what happens. If all is well I'd apply a topcoat and then watch that for another week. If all is still good, I'd go with the final topcoat.

I recently did a problem wall in a product called PEEL Stop by Zinsser but since I've had little experience with it I can't speak from experience if it would work here. If you did decide to try it I'd follow it up with a bonding primer or All-Prime as extra insurance before top coating. Regardless, I'd allow time between coats to judge how things are going and to ensure maximum dry time between coats.


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## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

paintgurl said:


> Ok. Yes. The cracking issue. No I've no idea what the heck it is. I've never seen anything quite like it so if anyone out there has any ideas pls put them out there coz I've about given up on it. Well. I have given up on it so my bathroom is in a state of frightening and has been for a long time. Not good. Lol. I've attached two images. They r both the same except I've enhanced the one so u can really see what it looks like on an up close and personal kind of level.







Just off center to the left. What is that line, roller mark? Seam of some sort showing through.

How many layers of paint do you think is on this wall?

Can someone tell me if this what happens when a wall has reached its limit as to how many coats of paint it can withstand?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

That is proof that the problem is old paper paste. That is where the seam was.


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## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

WhatIs it possible the paint was applied thick and not allowed to dry for a sufficient length of time before the shower was used?

I have never seen this.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Paste was not cleaned off, and then not primed with either an oil sealer or Gardz, and then painted over several times, and the moisture continued to reactivate the paste. I'm really sure.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> That is proof that the problem is old paper paste. That is where the seam was.


 
yes, TJ said that way back in post 28:yes:


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Im creating a new account and pretending to be girl so I can ask all the questions Im too embarased to ask :jester:

5 pages!

Sorry if this offends anyone:whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

HQP2005 said:


> Im creating a new account and pretending to be girl so I can ask all the questions Im too embarased to ask :jester:
> 
> 5 pages!
> 
> Sorry if this offends anyone:whistling2:


Deleting your account?


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

No, so i can ask mystery questions like this where only I have all the info and after everyone else tries to figure it out, HQP swoops in and saves the day. 

Anyway, I think someone took the wallpaper down and painted, and is now afraid to show the landlord what happand.


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## ddemair (Nov 3, 2008)

paintgurl said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> > It was kilz. I believe is a shellac based product.
> ...


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I wash with a strong solution of tsp and hot water,,,,


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> You try to talk like a pro- but you seem to not now much about products or problems. Paintgirl- I believe you are a DIY. Not a problem, but you do not seem like a pro.
> JMO


Define pro. I've been painting for 12 yrs. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to products and problems. But I don't ever recall giving myself the title of pro. Especially in a trade where a million different problems could possibly arise and where new products and techniques and information are abundant and come out and an almost daily basis. But a pro? No. I'm just a person who truly loves and respects this trade and has a great interest in the new information and things I learn about it every day. Hence the reason I am on this forum. I believe I've put myself out there as paint girl junior member not paint pro or pro painter. But I thank u for ur somewhat uniformed opinion nonetheless.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

paintgurl said:


> Define pro. I've been painting for 12 yrs. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to products and problems. But I don't ever recall giving myself the title of pro. Especially in a trade where a million different problems could possibly arise and where new products and techniques and information are abundant and come out and an almost daily basis. But a pro? No. I'm just a person who truly loves and respects this trade and has a great interest in the new information and things I learn about it every day. Hence the reason I am on this forum. I believe I've put myself out there as paint girl junior member not paint pro or pro painter. But I thank u for ur somewhat uniformed opinion nonetheless.



I may be wrong but I think the reason he said this is how you answered questions about the details. Like how you didn't know for sure what primer you used, for example. Usually a painter can give exact details off the top of their head, unless it was a couple years ago. 

I guess after all the information has been exchanged in this thread, I'm still confused about what steps you did for prep, which walls are failing, and which ones aren't. And, what primer you used. 

You should be able to succinctly list the steps and products used in a sentence or two. I also think this thread was confusing because you started out asking a non-specific question about painting over oil with a waterborne but then it migrated to discussing a specific failure issue in your bathroom.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

You are not wrong. And this is not a pro thread ( this IS a pro forum) but a DIY question.
There are lots of talented DIY who do it often and have an interest in the paint.
A pro could answer the questions without hesitation like TJ said.
And the problems and solutions have been offered several times.
peace out.


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> I may be wrong but I think the reason he said this is how you answered questions about the details. Like how you didn't know for sure what primer you used, for example. Usually a painter can give exact details off the top of their head, unless it was a couple years ago.
> 
> I guess after all the information has been exchanged in this thread, I'm still confused about what steps you did for prep, which walls are failing, and which ones aren't. And, what primer you used.
> 
> You should be able to succinctly list the steps and products used in a sentence or two. I also think this thread was confusing because you started out asking a non-specific question about painting over oil with a waterborne but then it migrated to discussing a specific failure issue in your bathroom.


Ok. Let's get this straight. Ur right. This is in a bathroom that I did the work in 3.5 years ago. As I said I work full time, painting believe it or not, with a team of painters who work for a group of well respected designers in the upscale areas of vancouver and Victoria bc. I get paid a lot of money to do what I do and I've never had a client who has been unsatisfied with ly work. The question came about as an off shoot of my original question which btw was posted because I was interested in what other people out there did. I also apologized for my.getting offhand with the topic and to all of those members who took the time to give me their advice and knowledge at the start of this thread I thank u very much. 
Maybe it's an island thing but I was always taught that there are no stupid questions and if u have nothing nice to say then don't.say anything at all. I apologize for.troubling u with.my.apparent diy question. And I thank u for your judgemental and ignorant comments. I think I will be deleting my account so.u won't have to worry about any more diy type questions from me.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

paintgurl said:


> Define pro. I've been painting for 12 yrs. I have a lot of knowledge when it comes to products and problems. But I don't ever recall giving myself the title of pro. Especially in a trade where a million different problems could possibly arise and where new products and techniques and information are abundant and come out and an almost daily basis. But a pro? No. I'm just a person who truly loves and respects this trade and has a great interest in the new information and things I learn about it every day. Hence the reason I am on this forum. I believe I've put myself out there as paint girl junior member not paint pro or pro painter. But I thank u for ur somewhat uniformed opinion nonetheless.


The simple answer to defining a pro for this site is somebody that does this for a living. This can be somebody that works in any wide range of the painting field such as a paint store owner employee or what not but making a living full time is the gist. 

If this basic definition does not define you and you are essentially a hobbyist that loves painting then a site like www.diychatroom.com is a better fit for you. If you are in the paint field for a living then stay and contribute. 

Granted I have seen many pros that do not deserve the title but it is what it is.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

ddemair said:


> paintgurl said:
> 
> 
> > Kilz is not a shellac-based product. It is oil-based.
> ...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I guess the issue in your bathroom may never be solved. What type of work do you do on the crew?


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## paintgurl (Sep 20, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> I guess the issue in your bathroom may never be solved. What type of work do you do on the crew?


I've already stated I paint. Daily. I do heritage homes, and up scale renos and repaints. I also do new construction which I don't generally care for much but when the work with the designer is in a lull its work so I can support myself and my.little one. The same cracking is also happening on my bathroom door and the cabinet doqor as well. I have been painting for only 12 years. Not including the year and a half I was off when I had my daughter. I do it for a living. Not as a hobby. Not once in a while just for fun. I do it 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Sometimes more . But once again this thread seems to have taken off on a tangent hasn't it. many thx for the info on my latex over oil question. I do believe my question.has been answered. Till next time. Paintgurl.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

paintgurl said:


> Ok. Let's get this straight. Ur right. This is in a bathroom that I did the work in 3.5 years ago. As I said I work full time, painting believe it or not, with a team of painters who work for a group of well respected designers in the upscale areas of vancouver and Victoria bc. I get paid a lot of money to do what I do and I've never had a client who has been unsatisfied with ly work. The question came about as an off shoot of my original question which btw was posted because I was interested in what other people out there did. I also apologized for my.getting offhand with the topic and to all of those members who took the time to give me their advice and knowledge at the start of this thread I thank u very much.
> Maybe it's an island thing but I was always taught that there are no stupid questions and if u have nothing nice to say then don't.say anything at all. I apologize for.troubling u with.my.apparent diy question. And I thank u for your judgemental and ignorant comments. I think I will be deleting my account so.u won't have to worry about any more diy type questions from me.


Sorry to see that you're upset by a few of the answers posted in reply to your questions. By my count, of the 100 posts in your thread, you had approximately 50 replies that attempted to help you with your problem. 20 more were your own. Another 20 or so were off topic banter replies. That leaves a fairly small number of replies you may have found objectionable. That's really a pretty good (and typical) range of responses. 

Personally, I hope you stick around - always nice to have another lady join the group. With that said, you'll have to expect to get some replies that you'll perceive as somewhat negative. Just comes with the territory. 

As has been noted, part of the problem was the confusion as a result of two separate issues being brought up in one thread. Confusion can lead to frustration and then things can go in a direction you may feel are negative. Regardless, try not to take it personally and ignore the replies that you don't like and focus on the ones you feel are helpful.


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## ddemair (Nov 3, 2008)

chrisn said:


> ddemair said:
> 
> 
> > Never said it was:no::no::no:
> ...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ddemair said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> > I never said you said it was. I was replying to paintgurl who said that Kilz might be shellac-based.
> ...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

paintgurl said:


> I've already stated I paint. Daily. I do heritage homes, and up scale renos and repaints. I also do new construction which I don't generally care for much but when the work with the designer is in a lull its work so I can support myself and my.little one. The same cracking is also happening on my bathroom door and the cabinet doqor as well. I have been painting for only 12 years. Not including the year and a half I was off when I had my daughter. I do it for a living. Not as a hobby. Not once in a while just for fun. I do it 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Sometimes more . But once again this thread seems to have taken off on a tangent hasn't it. many thx for the info on my latex over oil question. I do believe my question.has been answered. Till next time. Paintgurl.


I'm leaning towards a chemical issue since it's showing up on so many different surfaces. Something like hairspray, an oil, lotion or soap residues, a cleaning product - some substance that just didn't get fully removed and the primer didn't contain. Again, scrape, sand, clean really, really well, and hit it with a strong primer, then top coat. Just do one wall for now and see how it goes.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

ddemair said:


> chrisn said:
> 
> 
> > I never said you said it was. I was replying to paintgurl who said that Kilz might be shellac-based.
> ...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

researchhound said:


> I'm leaning towards a chemical issue since it's showing up on so many different surfaces. Something like hairspray, an oil, lotion or soap residues, a cleaning product - some substance that just didn't get fully removed and the primer didn't contain. Again, scrape, sand, clean really, really well, and hit it with a strong primer, then top coat. Just do one wall for now and see how it goes.


This makes the most sense to me too. If it's happening to basically all the painted surfaces, it can't be from the wallpaper paste. Bathrooms do have a lot of chemicals all in the air. 

Probably insufficient prep, or, the only other thing I can think of is the possibility of extensive moisture before the paint could cure. Or a combination of the two.

Paintgirls been painting for 12 yrs, she will know how to fix it.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I have seen some crackling like that before in oil paint in a bathroom without proper ventilation.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Paintgurl, you said you think this thread has gotten off on a tangent?

How else would it have 110 replies?:thumbup:


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I painfully read through this post. Could this be a result of hairspray. I had a door do this about head high on the outside of the door. The women always had the door open when she sprayed her hair. The door swung in resulting in the build up on the outside of the door. I sanded it down to the wood and started over. Could this possibly be hairspray?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

epretot said:


> Could this possibly be hairspray?


Yes, there is a possibility.

Hey painters, it's always a good idea to make sure the surface is free from: dirt, grease, wax, or other contaminants. Just like the back of the paint can says:thumbsup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

epretot said:


> I painfully read through this post. Could this be a result of hairspray. I had a door do this about head high on the outside of the door. The women always had the door open when she sprayed her hair. The door swung in resulting in the build up on the outside of the door. I sanded it down to the wood and started over. Could this possibly be hairspray?


I too have dealt with HS what a pain.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

nothing a little liquid sand paper can't take care of.

Or tsp like HighFibre said 1000 posts back.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> nothing a little liquid sand paper can't take care of.
> 
> Or tsp like HighFibre said 1000 posts back.


Not until I look at the job, give my proposal, sign the contract, knock it out and get paid.


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## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

Many years ago, a guy that lived in one of my parent's rentals blew his brains out in the lr. I remember seeing spots all over the walls and ceiling.

I remember being told that hair spray was used to finally cover the spots.

I do not know what was tried before the hair spray or how much hair spray was used. Nor do I know the brand, sorry. :jester:

Regardless, we are not talking years of buildup.

I had mentioned this once before somewhere, and someone suggested it may have been the laquer ( I think ) in the hair spray.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> Not until I look at the job, give my proposal, sign the contract, knock it out and get paid.


I can have a proposal emailed to you within the hour.


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## Painter Chick (Mar 1, 2012)

Just want to add, this is a wallpaper glue issue. The bes thing to do now would be scrape the loose stuff us a product called Gardz, this is a problem solving primer that I use on all my wallpaper removal projects. Repair your walls as needed, you may need to skim coat the entire wall, sand and apply another coat of the Gardz. Now you are ready for paint.

If by some chance all the crackling paint comes off, mix amonia and warm water solution and wash the walls. This should remove any wallpaper glue that was left over!:thumbup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I trust no acrylic or hybrid over oil, ever. Sand, Cover-Stain, then paint. I do not ever sand my Cover-Stain. I take care of sanding prior to applying primer.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Painter Chick said:


> Just want to add, this is a wallpaper glue issue. The bes thing to do now would be scrape the loose stuff us a product called Gardz, this is a problem solving primer that I use on all my wallpaper removal projects. Repair your walls as needed, you may need to skim coat the entire wall, sand and apply another coat of the Gardz. Now you are ready for paint.
> 
> If by some chance all the crackling paint comes off, mix amonia and warm water solution and wash the walls. This should remove any wallpaper glue that was left over!:thumbup:


Welcome to the forum PC


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Paintgurl now Paintchick very interesting.:whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> I trust no acrylic or hybrid over oil, ever. Sand, Cover-Stain, then paint. I do not ever sand my Cover-Stain. I take care of sanding prior to applying primer.


Not thinking this isn't reasonable but why don't you like to sand coverstain?


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Coverstain sands pretty nice imo. even if you sand before application your not going to get the same finish if you dont sand lightly after. I love oil primers for this reason among others, they seem to sand the best. you use a latex/ acryllic bonding primer its alot easier to burn through. With the oil theres more build up and is easier to smooth. I always sand before application, but i think the after is just as important.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Painter Chick said:


> Just want to add, this is a wallpaper glue issue. The bes thing to do now would be scrape the loose stuff us a product called Gardz, this is a problem solving primer that I use on all my wallpaper removal projects. Repair your walls as needed, you may need to skim coat the entire wall, sand and apply another coat of the Gardz. Now you are ready for paint.
> 
> If by some chance all the crackling paint comes off, mix amonia and warm water solution and wash the walls. This should remove any wallpaper glue that was left over!:thumbup:


 
NOT glue

IS paste and or adhesive


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