# Fish eyes in my Stix again!



## finishesbykevyn

Ok. Wtf. I've been using BIN lately through my hvlp with no issues. I ran out and had a brand new can of Stix. Sprayedbit through my airless. Fish eyes like crazy!
Side note: This was 2and coat over the BIN. Not sure if that is the issue, but I have had problems with Stix doing this in the past.. what the heck man. What a pain.
Never again.


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## jennifertemple

"This was 2and coat over the BIN. Not sure if that is the issue" Maybe the BIN was not cured enough prior to applying STIX. IMHO, it is not a good idea to mix primers, start with one, stay with that one. I have not yet tried Stix so maybe someone with more experience using the stuff...


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## finishesbykevyn

jennifertemple said:


> "This was 2and coat over the BIN. Not sure if that is the issue" Maybe the BIN was not cured enough prior to applying STIX. IMHO, it is not a good idea to mix primers, start with one, stay with that one. I have not yet tried Stix so maybe someone with more experience using the stuff...


 Ya maybe, but it had dried over night. Usually BIN is coatable in 30 mins.. I just can't see it. It's done it over other coatings too. When it works, it works well. Totally perplexed.


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## Rbriggs82

Ugh, I hate nothing more than fish eyes! 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn

FishStix!


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## Joe67

Just leave it and explain that you went with a faux finish because the fish eye thing is all the rage these days.


I don't think I have any answers, but I'm wondering whether the equipment cleaning to switch over from BIN to Stix could have had a glitch?


And if it was me and I cared enough to spend the time, probably worth asking for some tech support from Insl-X (http://www.insl-x.com/contact-us)


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ok. Wtf. I've been using BIN lately through my hvlp with no issues. I ran out and had a brand new can of Stix. Sprayedbit through my airless. Fish eyes like crazy!
> Side note: This was 2and coat over the BIN. Not sure if that is the issue, but I have had problems with Stix doing this in the past.. what the heck man. What a pain.
> Never again.


Just brainstorming, but are you sanding with a non-loading (stearated) sandpaper, it's possible its leaving a residue on the surface?

Contamination from your sprayer?


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## SWPB

Yeah, the source of the fish eye is hard to find. I've seen everything from contaminants in the spray line to maintenance crews lubing items 30 feet from the finishing room. Point is, it's a contaminant, not the product.


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## vwbowman

*Possible batch issue*



finishesbykevyn said:


> Ok. Wtf. I've been using BIN lately through my hvlp with no issues. I ran out and had a brand new can of Stix. Sprayedbit through my airless. Fish eyes like crazy!
> Side note: This was 2and coat over the BIN. Not sure if that is the issue, but I have had problems with Stix doing this in the past.. what the heck man. What a pain.
> Never again.


Take a picture of the lid of the Stix, it has the batch number and let your BM dealer know about it, I have had a customer with the same issue and was told that BM was aware of the issue in a batch produced near the end of 2019. 

Give Aqua Lock a try, it will save you some money and performs very well.


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## cocomonkeynuts

vwbowman said:


> Take a picture of the lid of the Stix, it has the batch number and let your BM dealer know about it, I have had a customer with the same issue and was told that BM was aware of the issue in a batch produced near the end of 2019.
> 
> Give Aqua Lock a try, it will save you some money and performs very well.



stix and cabinetcoat were both having product issues... is BM having an issue with their urethanes?


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## vwbowman

cocomonkeynuts said:


> stix and cabinetcoat were both having product issues... is BM having an issue with their urethanes?


I have one customer that uses 90% of the CabinetCoat we sell and haven't anything from him, nor I have I experienced in any other issues. Fingers crossed!


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> Just brainstorming, but are you sanding with a non-loading (stearated) sandpaper, it's possible its leaving a residue on the surface?
> 
> Contamination from your sprayer?


I'm Not sure I'm familiar with a non loaded paper? Was using a fine grit sponge sanding block. Was thinking it could be my sprayer, but cleaned it like crazy and it still happened. Wiped everything down with micro fibre cloth and compressed air.
I used to think it was contamination from the Advance, having oil properties and all, but had not used Advance in my sprayer for a while. Stix has been letting me down which is too bad, because it is a fantastic product. Maybe as a 2nd coat Aqua Lock would have been a good choice as vwbowman mentioned..


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## finishesbykevyn

Joe67 said:


> Just leave it and explain that you went with a faux finish because the fish eye thing is all the rage these days.
> 
> 
> I don't think I have any answers, but I'm wondering whether the equipment cleaning to switch over from BIN to Stix could have had a glitch?
> 
> 
> And if it was me and I cared enough to spend the time, probably worth asking for some tech support from Insl-X (http://www.insl-x.com/contact-us)


 Good thought, but I don't run the BIN through my airless. Exclusively through my HVLP. Sprays like a dream out of the HVLP. However my compressor is out of commision right now, so had to switch to airless, which is why I went with the STIX.


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## finishesbykevyn

On second thought @Holland. These are the same cabinets that had the glue on them from the thermofoil.. It's possible that some of the glue residue got on the sanding sponges and transfered to the surfaces!. Hmm. Definitely a possibility. This has been the job from hell.


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> On second thought @Holland. These are the same cabinets that had the glue on them from the thermofoil.. It's possible that some of the glue residue got on the sanding sponges and transfered to the surfaces!. Hmm. Definitely a possibility. This has been the job from hell.


You might be getting fish eyes due to a silane based residue on or within the MDF. Organosilane coupling agents are sometimes used with resins and adhesives to promote adhesion such as when applying thermofoils to MDF, the residue of which, might result in fish eyes.


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## finishesbykevyn

Redux said:


> You might be getting fish eyes due to a silane based residue on or within the MDF. Organosilane coupling agents are sometimes used with resins and adhesives to promote adhesion such as when applying thermofoils to MDF, the residue of which, might result in fish eyes.


Only thing is, I primed them with BIN first and it went on flawless. The only reason I did a second coat with Stix, is because I burned through a lot of the primer while sanding, because a lot of the end grains raised like crazy..
This is when the fish eyes happened. So either the Stix didn't like going over the BIN, or the can was tainted. Any glue residue was already sealed with the BIN.
I seem to have rectified the situation with another sanding and 2 solid coats of Advance. (Out of the same sprayer might I add)..flowed out perfect.


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## fromthenorthwest

Hey Kevyn, not that this will be helpful in your situation, but I've sprayed Stix twice through my 440 and both times it fish-eyed on me. Used a different primer and no fisheyes both times, so im pretty certain it wasn't a surface contaminant issue. Not sure what the deal is, but I don't use it anymore. I have used it brushing and rolling with no problems though.


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## Joe67

fromthenorthwest said:


> Hey Kevyn, not that this will be helpful in your situation, but I've sprayed Stix twice through my 440 and both times it fish-eyed on me. Used a different primer and no fisheyes both times, so im pretty certain it wasn't a surface contaminant issue. Not sure what the deal is, but I don't use it anymore. I have used it brushing and rolling with no problems though.



Starting to smell like some InslX quality control/batch contamination issues...


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## finishesbykevyn

fromthenorthwest1681809 said:


> Hey Kevyn, not that this will be helpful in your situation, but I've sprayed Stix twice through my 440 and both times it fish-eyed on me. Used a different primer and no fisheyes both times, so im pretty certain it wasn't a surface contaminant issue. Not sure what the deal is, but I don't use it anymore. I have used it brushing and rolling with no problems though.


Ya thanks for the feed back FTNW, interesting. I'm starting to suspect the Stix.. Too bad, as Stix normally is a superior primer for adhesion. Correct though, no issues when when brushing/rolling..Which primer did you switch too?Think I'll just stick to BIN for Cabinets. Have never had any issues with it.


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## Respec

*fish eyes*

We have had Stix fish eye occasionally, but after a light sand to smooth it out, there was no problems with the top coat.


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## Redux

finishesbykevyn said:


> Only thing is, I primed them with BIN first and it went on flawless. The only reason I did a second coat with Stix, is because I burned through a lot of the primer while sanding, because a lot of the end grains raised like crazy..
> This is when the fish eyes happened. So either the Stix didn't like going over the BIN, or the can was tainted. Any glue residue was already sealed with the BIN.
> I seem to have rectified the situation with another sanding and 2 solid coats of Advance. (Out of the same sprayer might I add)..flowed out perfect.


I still think the fisheyes could be the result of organo-silanes. They are sometimes used in the manufacture of MDF to reduce water permeation and formaldehyde out-gassing. The nano particles can rise through BIN, resulting in fisheyes. I think they’re also alcohol soluble and would not result in fisheyes in the BIN.

I’ve only had STIX fisheye when used over organo-silane crosslinked finishes, as well as when coating over residues left by paintable OS containing caulk.


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## finishesbykevyn

Redux said:


> I still think the fisheyes could be the result of organo-silanes. They are sometimes used in the manufacture of MDF to reduce water permeation and formaldehyde out-gassing. The nano particles can rise through BIN, resulting in fisheyes. I think they’re also alcohol soluble and would not result in fisheyes in the BIN.
> 
> I’ve only had STIX fisheye when used over organo-silane crosslinked finishes, as well as when coating over residues left by paintable OS containing caulk.


How do you know this sh*t? lmao!


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## fromthenorthwest

Hey Kevyn i switched to Smart prime by zinsser for cabinets. Water based and blocks tannins. Passes the scratch test too so does everything i need it too without bothering my customers. Here's a job we finished prior to the shelter in place deal.


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## finishesbykevyn

fromthenorthwest said:


> Hey Kevyn i switched to Smart prime by zinsser for cabinets. Water based and blocks tannins. Passes the scratch test too so does everything i need it too without bothering my customers. Here's a job we finished prior to the shelter in place deal.


Nice! Smart prime eh. How was the adhesion compared to Stix? Did you spray it on or roll.? I haven't tried the smart Prime but am very intrigued. Nice work.
I had a friend doing some cabinets around the same time using Stix over some varnished cabs. His project was fisheying too! Compared product #'s and they were the same batch. So, I'm now 99% convinced it was the product. Such a shame.


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## JohnDoor

SWPB said:


> Yeah, the source of the fish eye is hard to find. I've seen everything from contaminants in the spray line to maintenance crews lubing items 30 feet from the finishing room. Point is, it's a contaminant, not the product.


 When I've seen fisheyes it's usually because I did something dumb like wipe the surface with denatured alcohol or a rag that hid min spirits. Don't know how any contaminants could have gotten on your surface but that's what crossed my mind. The consistent think for you is that it's always been w Stix and that I can't explain. Eliminate this factor and if the problem is solved, stay away from Stix.


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