# Self Priming My Butt!!



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

This was a first time for me buying such a product (AND THE LAST!) Thank heaven I read the label! In effect, it will prime anything that does not need primer! Why has no one mentioned that here? I was not counting on buying the primer but now see it is not optional. What a BS product! I though I knew: ALWAYS start with superior adhesion primer. 30 years in and I feel like an idiot!


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

What product? Sounds like it Behrly worked


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Self priming your butt is usually a good call if you're into that kind of thing


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I have made plenty of posts about self priming paint being crap. Maybe try that Glidden 3 in 1 crap. That's even more of a joke. Fill nail holes, primes and finish paint all in 1 can.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

jennifertemple said:


> This was a first time for me buying such a product (AND THE LAST!) Thank heaven I read the label! In effect, it will prime anything that does not need primer! Why has no one mentioned that here? I was not counting on buying the primer but now see it is not optional. What a BS product! I though I knew: ALWAYS start with superior adhesion primer. 30 years in and I feel like an idiot!


:lol: :lol: That's the funniest comment I've read in a long time :lol: :lol:

Your mastery of sarcasm is supreme :thumbsup:


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I don't know guys..... I've had amazing results with Aura and its self priming. But I guess you get what you pay for.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I was expecting pictures. Sort of disappointed.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> :lol: :lol: That's the funniest comment I've read in a long time :lol: :lol:
> 
> Your mastery of sarcasm is supreme :thumbsup:


if only that were true


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> if only that were true


and I too am never sarcastic


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> and I too am never sarcastic


me either:no:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> This was a first time for me buying such a product (AND THE LAST!) Thank heaven I read the label! In effect, it will prime anything that does not need primer! Why has no one mentioned that here? I was not counting on buying the primer but now see it is not optional. What a BS product! I though I knew: ALWAYS start with superior adhesion primer. 30 years in and I feel like an idiot!


Do you think the people who's jobs depend on selling it are going to tell you? I've been on this "stop the paint and primer" bandwagon since day one. But when consumers see 30-40 paint and primer commercials a day I what do you expect. When I have customers who ask about them I usually point out the fact that right next to them in the store is a 24' section of 30 different primers. But you are absolutely correct, if you actually read the label, the only things they self prime don't need a primer to begin with. Two coats and good to go. But every quality paint in the last 40 years could do that. it's just a marketing scam, and we as the painting professionals need to re-educate our customers.

But as usual, painters will still flock to the paint company that started it all.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Hasn't it been a big debate here and on other forums about applying paint directly on new rock vs primer? There are various schools of thoughts and both have have good and bad results according to the posters. I've had a contrator ask me to paint directly without primer, the paint is still there, although I prefer to use a primer myself.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

And doesn't priming your butt get itchy?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Hasn't it been a big debate here and on other forums about applying paint directly on new rock vs primer? There are various schools of thoughts and both have have good and bad results according to the posters. I've had a contrator ask me to paint directly without primer, the paint is still there, although I prefer to use a primer myself.


I think what we've determined from the primer/finish discussions, is that there is a general consensus that best painting practices suggests using a specific primer designed to be compatible with a specific substrate prior to applying an intermediate, or finish coat.

However, we've also determined that current paint technologies, including primer/finishes, have the capability to adhere adequately to bare surfaces. 

So what the real debate comes down to is, are those who are expediting a paint job by eliminating the traditional priming process in favor of the primer/finish products available, somehow less scrupulous then those who subscribe to the more traditional methods of application? 

The conclusion would be that since the painting industry, and its product manufacturers, have enabled such a wide range of the so called "finished painting product", not subject to enforced standards by a governing body, that the employment of a primer/finish for bare substrates, has become an unofficial industry standard.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

AV Painting said:


> Self priming your butt is usually a good call if you're into that kind of thing


It also is a reminder of the importance of punctuation.:whistling2:

After all, punctuation CAN save lives:

"let's eat grandma" versus "let's eat, grandma"


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> It also is a reminder of the importance of punctuation.:whistling2:
> 
> After all, punctuation CAN save lives:
> 
> "let's eat grandma" versus "let's eat, grandma"


Given the punctuation error in the thread title, I'm surprised no one in this bunch has suggested the OP post a picture of the substrate in question. :whistling2:

Not that I would ever do such a thing. :jester:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Given the punctuation error in the thread title, I'm surprised no one in this bunch has suggested the OP post a picture of the substrate in question. :whistling2:
> 
> Not that I would ever do such a thing. :jester:


I do believe post #7 suggested as much.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

For what it's worth, the product you bought probably isn't crap (depending, of course); chances are it's the exact same product you've been buying for the last however many years you've been painting with latex paints, give or take.

In the vast majority of cases, there was no formula change when "paint and primer" got slapped on the label. Most companies just did a bit of testing, noticed that paint adheres alright to some substrates, and slapped it on there- sometimes literally (I know many paint stores actually had "paint and primer" stickers shipped to them to stick on extant products).

Latex paint is the same as ever, there's just one more marketing scam out there. Do what you've always done- apply the appropriate primer and enjoy not having problems.

And... maybe this was just lack of clarity from CAPainter, but I don't believe there's any consensus at all that paint has enough adhesion to stick to bare substrates. Sure, there are _some_ that they will, but many more that they won't in reality- not to mention issues such as sealing.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CApainter said:


> *I think what we've determined from the primer/finish discussions, is that there is a general consensus that best painting practices suggests using a specific primer designed to be compatible with a specific substrate prior to applying an intermediate, or finish coat.*
> 
> However, we've also determined that current paint technologies, including primer/finishes, have the capability to adhere adequately to bare surfaces.
> 
> ...


No...I was pretty clear.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

chrisn said:


> I do believe post #7 suggested as much.


Don't know how I missed that. :blink:

Now _I_ feel like an unprimed @ss.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

*Eats, Shoots & Leaves. Lynne Truss*



Gough said:


> It also is a reminder of the importance of punctuation.:whistling2:
> 
> After all, punctuation CAN save lives:
> 
> "let's eat grandma" versus "let's eat, grandma"


^Brevity is the soul of wit.^

vI'm not witty, so here's my favorite:v

A panda walks into a café. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.

"Why?" asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"Well, I'm a panda," he says. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. "Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves."


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

slinger58 said:


> Don't know how I missed that. :blink:
> 
> Now _I_ feel like an unprimed @ss.


Would all those with a PRIMED ass please stand up.

.

.

.

looks like you're in good company, Dennis :thumbsup:


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

@ Drake. It is also known that many "official" primer sealers don't adhere well to bare rock, even after removing the dust.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jazz_Painter said:


> @ Drake. It is also known that many "official" primer sealers don't adhere well to bare rock, even after removing the dust.


So what would you consider to be a best painting practice for bare drywall?


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## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

Idk this post seems like smoke and mirrors. Even great adhesion products like breakthrough recommend a primer before application. This post comes from reading a can and realizing that the manufacturer recommends a primer.... ofc they do to cover the bottom line. 

Not impressed by this thread. It would be one thing if the product failed you but it seems you just failed to read the can.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

CApainter said:


> So what would you consider to be a best painting practice for bare drywall?


Like I said I like to use a primer, but not just any primer sealer, even if it's recommended for drywall. I've had good adhesion from good paint too. Regal, Ben, Aura and many other brands/models can work.

Personnally though, I prefer to use a good primer. Aqualock works well for drywall, but the ultraspec doesn't satisfy my standards of adhesion. I mentionned the products I use often but other products will work well too.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jazz_Painter said:


> *@ Drake.* It is also known that *many "official" primer sealers don't adhere well to bare rock*, even after removing the dust.


If you leave out the space and add his full screen name, @DrakeB, a notification will pop up in his control panel, so long as he hasn't disabled them.

What are the top 3 or 4 most common "official" primer sealers that don't adhere well to bare rock?


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I always spot prime bare timber. I reckon the homeowner will think you are taking shortcuts if they see you putting topcoat onto a bare surface.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> No...I was pretty clear.


I'm not sure, butt I think you two are arguing about agreeing. Butt let it be known that I am all for butt priming before painting butts.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Like I said I like to use a primer, but not just any primer sealer, even if it's recommended for drywall. I've had good adhesion from good paint too. Regal, Ben, Aura and many other brands/models can work.
> 
> Personnally though, I prefer to use a good primer. Aqualock works well for drywall, but the ultraspec doesn't satisfy my standards of adhesion. I mentionned the products I use often but other products will work well too.


Don't forget that some long time quality primers have mysteriously turned to crap as they have to keep costs down for the box stores. There is no way Bullseye 123 can be the same retail price now that it was 20 years ago without some of the quality being compromised. I did adhesion tests on it 16-17 years ago on melamine for a job and it performed as well as just about anything then on the market. I ran a test on it a couple of months ago on the same type of melamine and the adhesion was dismal.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Like I said I like to use a primer, but not just any primer sealer, even if it's recommended for drywall. I've had good adhesion from good paint too. Regal, Ben, Aura and many other brands/models can work.
> 
> Personnally though, I prefer to use a good primer. Aqualock works well for drywall, but the ultraspec doesn't satisfy my standards of adhesion. I mentionned the products I use often but other products will work well too.


Since you didn't mention a primer/finish paint, I'm presuming that you agree with the general consensus that a product specifically designed for priming bare substrates or difficult surfaces, would be considered a best practice.

And as far as what to use, in terms of PVA, masonry, metal, wood, and multi purpose primers, is a topic for another thread IMO.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Since you didn't mention a primer/finish paint, I'm presuming that you agree with the general consensus that a product specifically designed for priming bare substrates or difficult surfaces, would be considered a best practice.
> 
> And as far as what to use, in terms of PVA, masonry, metal, wood, and multi purpose primers, is a topic for another thread IMO.




There's the reason that even the box stores have 24' sections dedicated to primers. No primer works the best in every situation. Again I ask, why do the box stores give up 24' of prime selling space to primers if the paint and primer products actually work?


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Since you didn't mention a primer/finish paint, I'm presuming that you agree with the general consensus that a product specifically designed for priming bare substrates or difficult surfaces, would be considered a best practice.
> 
> And as far as what to use, in terms of PVA, masonry, metal, wood, and multi purpose primers, is a topic for another thread IMO.


I did mention Aura, Regal, Ben, which have a primer included in the paint.

That being said I prefer using a primer on drywall. As for the other substrates like metal etc..., I agree 100% that it's another topic but a good primer for the right use is needed.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> ^Brevity is the soul of wit.^
> 
> vI'm not witty, so here's my favorite:v
> 
> ...


There's a book entitled "Eats, shoots and leaves," have you read it?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

"Does this primer make my butt look big?"


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jazz_Painter said:


> @ Drake. It is also known that many "official" primer sealers don't adhere well to bare rock, even after removing the dust.


You can buy crappy anything, so I'm not sure how much that proves.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jazz_Painter said:


> I did mention Aura, Regal, Ben, which have a primer included in the paint.
> 
> That being said I prefer using a primer on drywall. As for the other substrates like metal etc..., I agree 100% that it's another topic but a good primer for the right use is needed.


And there in lies the paradox with using primer specific products verses primer/finishes. Because, although all properly trained and conscientious painters know that the best practice is to apply a primer to all bare substrates prior to applying a finish coat, many are eliminating that step in favor of the primer/finish products. And in fact, many of those products are performing fine.

The painting industry is weird like that. And since the industry along with the home improvement centers, caters to the DIY in a manner not reserved for other trades, its no surprise that primer finish products are becoming a logical choice for many professional painters. Especially, for those who whine that primer specific products, like PVA Sealers, never work and are just marketing gimmicks of the big bad paint manufacturers.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jazz_Painter said:


> I did mention Aura, Regal, Ben, which have a primer included in the paint.


Sorry, I can't let this pass by without saying something. There is no primer in any Benjamin Moore wall paints. None at all. These are the exact same products they were before the "paint and primer" labels hit. I can't stress this enough, if there's one thing anyone takes away from this conversation, _there is no primer in paint & primer paints._

Edit: Which I'm sure you knew. Phrasing it that way just bugs me because people see that and get confused.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> You can buy crappy anything, so I'm not sure how much that proves.


Of course, but like I said, the ultraspec primer isn't a crap product but doesn't give me the insurrance of good adhesion such as aqualock for example.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

CApainter said:


> And there in lies the paradox with using primer specific products verses primer/finishes. Because, although all properly trained and conscientious painters know that the best practice is to apply a primer to all bare substrates prior to applying a finish coat, many are eliminating that step in favor of the primer/finish products. And in fact, many of those products are performing fine.
> 
> The painting industry is weird like that. And since the industry along with the home improvement centers, caters to the DIY in a manner not reserved for other trades, its no surprise that primer finish products are becoming a logical choice for many professional painters. Especially, for those who whine that primer specific products, like PVA Sealers, never work and are just marketing gimmicks of the big bad paint manufacturers.



I think we agree on this. In fact I think we've agreed all along. My point is that I haven't done hundreds of lab test but only rely on my experience and what info I gather from various sources (including here). I feel better to use a primer, but some products, like you've mentionned, perform well directly on some substrates. Most guys here feel that using a primer is the way to go, but there's also a fair share of guys that find it useless on bare drywall. I read here some guys that have always used primers all of their lives but a few times have been forced to cut corners by using straight paint and were amazed at the result.

Jack Paulh has made some pretty interesting tests (and well documented) on that question and he applies paint directly to drywall. 

So my point is that there is no consensus on that question, and that's what I was trying to point out in my first post. What I think which practice is best is relatively irrelevant as I don't have infused science and I always want to improve my skills and knowledge. 100% acrylic paints do seal well, I guess you use more paint in the end but skip a step. Isn't that a step towards good efficiency or sloppy practice to cut corners and save a few $$? I'm not sure I have the answer to that question honestly.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Sorry, I can't let this pass by without saying something. There is no primer in any Benjamin Moore wall paints. None at all. These are the exact same products they were before the "paint and primer" labels hit. I can't stress this enough, if there's one thing anyone takes away from this conversation, _there is no primer in paint & primer paints._


I'll have to discuss that with my rep as I've been informed otherwise. Thanks for letting me know!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> And there in lies the paradox with using primer specific products verses primer/finishes. Because, although all properly trained and conscientious painters know that the best practice is to apply a primer to all bare substrates prior to applying a finish coat, many are eliminating that step in favor of the primer/finish products. And in fact, many of those products are performing fine.
> 
> The painting industry is weird like that. And since the industry along with the home improvement centers, caters to the DIY in a manner not reserved for other trades, its no surprise that primer finish products are becoming a logical choice for many professional painters. Especially, for those who whine that primer specific products, like PVA Sealers, never work and are just marketing gimmicks of the big bad paint manufacturers.


Not to mention the fact that you can lose bids because the consumer doesn't want or think they need a primer due to all the marketing bull.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jazz_Painter said:


> I'll have to discuss that with my rep as I've been informed otherwise. Thanks for letting me know!


Definitely do. There is (unfortunately) a lot of misinformation floating around about it. Like I mentioned in a different thread, some companies actually just sent out stickers that said "Paint and Primer" and had paint stores stick the stickers on their extant product when they decided to swap the labels. I can't speak for any companies other than BM (though I have heard similar stories from the other manufacturers) but as far as I know no formulas were changed- TDS's are exactly the same, no tint formulas changed, it was purely cosmetic.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Sorry, I can't let this pass by without saying something. There is no primer in any Benjamin Moore wall paints. None at all. These are the exact same products they were before the "paint and primer" labels hit. I can't stress this enough, if there's one thing anyone takes away from this conversation, _there is no primer in paint & primer paints._
> 
> Edit: Which I'm sure you knew. Phrasing it that way just bugs me because people see that and get confused.


There is no "primer" in any BM paint. They just found out that their products out performed the so called "paint and primer" products and had to do something to not lose sales to the box stores and SW. There is no "primer" in any of them. In fact, none of the P&P paints on the market say anywhere that they actually have a primer "in the paint" as I often hear. That is just a misinterpretation of the marketing. None of them say one coat on anything either. They just basically are "prime with the first coat" then "paint with the second coat". Which eliminates any need to mention "one coat" in their marketing. And they all say two coats on a previously painted/properly prepared substrate. The real fascinating thing for me is that a couple of them have the need for a primer conveniently hidden in the surface preparation section of their data sheets and not in the section that tells how many coats on what substrates are required.

For example (brand excluded for sanities sake!) one major brand's data sheet says two coats of the product on properly prepared drywall. Then farther down the data sheet it goes on to say that to properly prepare drywall it has to be primed with such and such primer! 

And when it peals, guess what? No paint for you! Surface no prepped! So sorry! Read direction.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Definitely do. There is (unfortunately) a lot of misinformation floating around about it. Like I mentioned in a different thread, some companies actually just sent out stickers that said "Paint and Primer" and had paint stores stick the stickers on their extant product when they decided to swap the labels. I can't speak for any companies other than BM (though I have heard similar stories from the other manufacturers) but as far as I know no formulas were changed- TDS's are exactly the same, no tint formulas changed, it was purely cosmetic.


Valspar, Behr, Pittsburgh(Menards), Dutch boy, Ace, and True value were all just label changes. I have first hand knowledge and witnessed these brands doing it. Also, I witnessed the Kilz paints at Home depot being relabeled as Behrpro. I actually have video of it somewhere.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> Don't forget that some long time quality primers have mysteriously turned to crap as they have to keep costs down for the box stores. *There is no way Bullseye 123 can be the same retail price now that it was 20 years ago without some of the quality being compromised.* I did adhesion tests on it 16-17 years ago on melamine for a job and it performed as well as just about anything then on the market. *I ran a test on it a couple of months ago on the same type of melamine and the adhesion was dismal.*


You just ruined my week.

What are the products you tell your customers to considered if they ask for 123?

I'm willing to switch, and pay more. What are some alternatives that basically do the same things 123 does?

I use "specialty" primers like Stix, Gardz, BIN, etc., but I also want to always have a "general purpose" water-based primer/sealer option even though there will be compromises.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> There's a book entitled "Eats, shoots and leaves," have you read it?


No, but I painted a bathroom once and when I was clearing it out to prep I noticed the paperback version next to the toilet. If that's not an endorsement…

(Also, I did post the author's name at the top of my post so others didn't think I was claiming the quote as my own.)


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

PACman said:


> There is no "primer" in any BM paint. They just found out that their products out performed the so called "paint and primer" products and had to do something to not lose sales to the box stores and SW. There is no "primer" in any of them. In fact, none of the P&P paints on the market say anywhere that they actually have a primer "in the paint" as I often hear. That is just a misinterpretation of the marketing. None of them say one coat on anything either. They just basically are "prime with the first coat" then "paint with the second coat". Which eliminates any need to mention "one coat" in their marketing. And they all say two coats on a previously painted/properly prepared substrate. The real fascinating thing for me is that a couple of them have the need for a primer conveniently hidden in the surface preparation section of their data sheets and not in the section that tells how many coats on what substrates are required.
> 
> For example (brand excluded for sanities sake!) one major brand's data sheet says two coats of the product on properly prepared drywall. Then farther down the data sheet it goes on to say that to properly prepare drywall it has to be primed with such and such primer!
> 
> And when it peals, guess what? No paint for you! Surface no prepped! So sorry! Read direction.



Please explain to me how the TDS for BM 508 is any different than the mystery brand you're slamming. BM 508 states that it's self-priming over drywall, but page 2 under, "Primer/Finish Systems", goes on to explain that new drywall should be primed first. They recommend 046 Fresh Start, and they even state that some previously painted drywall areas may require spot-priming. 

I love 508, so don't get me wrong, but it seems like lately on PT there's been a disproportionate amount of time slamming other brands, and it's getting really old. 

No disrespect intended. If I'm wrong or misinterpreting something, please let me know.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

How come the self priming butt girl has not been back?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> How come the self priming butt girl has not been back?


Usually once folks escape from quicksand, they don't jump in for more. :whistling2:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> You just ruined my week.
> 
> What are the products you tell your customers to considered if they ask for 123?
> 
> ...


I actually only sell the California and P&L primers a present. Cali has a product called Gripcoat which will blow your mind for adhesion. I am looking into carrying the Insul-x primer products as I have always found they worked quite well.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Please explain to me how the TDS for BM 508 is any different than the mystery brand you're slamming. BM 508 states that it's self-priming over drywall, but page 2 under, "Primer/Finish Systems", goes on to explain that new drywall should be primed first. They recommend 046 Fresh Start, and they even state that some previously painted drywall areas may require spot-priming.
> 
> I love 508, so don't get me wrong, but it seems like lately on PT there's been a disproportionate amount of time slamming other brands, and it's getting really old.
> 
> No disrespect intended. If I'm wrong or misinterpreting something, please let me know.


When did I slam BM? I was just pointing out that they were pretty much forced to do what the market demanded of them. And yes, you are correct. The drywall priming specification is quite misleading on many TDS sheets of many different brands. But the brand I am referencing seems to have more than it's share of supporters, even though it is the most mis-leading brand there is. I don't even want to mention them any more because the resulting threads are barely tolerable.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Regarding the 508 TDS- typically speaking, the top of the TDS will list the applications the product has been tested for and performed in a way BM was comfortable with. The bottom, however, lists the _optimal_ primer/finish system. Of course, they don't come out right and say this, but this is my understanding. For example, if you go look at the 046 Fresh Start primer TDS, the top will say it's fine for galvanized metals and ferrous metals. But then if you go down to the primer/finish systems at the bottom, the 046 isn't even mentioned in either of those sections. On its own TDS!

Admittedly, it's not the most clear system in the world, but I get why they do it that way- they want to tell people the best/industry standard way to do things as well as what they've tested. I usually recommend going with the industry standard version of things, because I like giving people the best shot at success possible.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

PACman said:


> When did I slam BM? I was just pointing out that they were pretty much forced to do what the market demanded of them. And yes, you are correct. The drywall priming specification is quite misleading on many TDS sheets of many different brands. But the brand I am referencing seems to have more than it's share of supporters, even though it is the most mis-leading brand there is. I don't even want to mention them any more because the resulting threads are barely tolerable.



You weren't slamming BM. It was another manufacturer. My point was that BM is just as guilty as the company you were slamming in regards to misleading info sheets, at least in the context you described.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

DrakeB said:


> Regarding the 508 TDS- typically speaking, the top of the TDS will list the applications the product has been tested for and performed in a way BM was comfortable with. The bottom, however, lists the _optimal_ primer/finish system. Of course, they don't come out right and say this, but this is my understanding. For example, if you go look at the 046 Fresh Start primer TDS, the top will say it's fine for galvanized metals and ferrous metals. But then if you go down to the primer/finish systems at the bottom, the 046 isn't even mentioned in either of those sections. On its own TDS!
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, it's not the most clear system in the world, but I get why they do it that way- they want to tell people the best/industry standard way to do things as well as what they've tested. I usually recommend going with the industry standard version of things, because I like giving people the best shot at success possible.



My point was that they're doing the exact same thing as what PacMan described the other manufacturer is doing. I love BM. I'm not putting them down.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> My point was that they're doing the exact same thing as what PacMan described the other manufacturer is doing. I love BM. I'm not putting them down.


I know, I understood you. Just thought it'd be something worth mentioning, since it didn't seem like a fact that you (or most people, I'd wager) were aware of.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> You weren't slamming BM. It was another manufacturer. My point was that BM is just as guilty as the company you were slamming in regards to misleading info sheets, at least in the context you described.


Yes they are. Honestly I can't think of a way to legitimately tell a consumer that a primer isn't needed but it really is on any paint. You can put a coat of paint on anything if you want too. Whether it will stick or hide or not look like **** kind of depends on what the consumers expectations are. No paint brand can sell by promoting their product by using best practices any more. That's the root of the problem.

Oddly enough, the P&L "self priming" Redseal and the "paint + primer" Accolade TDS sheets both show two coats on drywall OR one coat of primer and two coats of topcoat. It just comes down to what the end user expects from it I guess.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If a primer/finish fails on a surface, the manufacturer will claim it was poorly prepped. Absolutely no recourse for the sad painter. At best, some paint will be tossed back to the sad painter out of sympathy, with little to no damage incurred by the paint manufacturer. Unfortunately, no one pays for the painter's labor. Very sad.

Now if you claimed to use a brand named primer prior to applying the primer/finish paint, and you experience a fail, you better make sure its a primer recommended on the primer/finish can or TDS, and not one of your favorite all purpose primers. Or, you'll be SOL. 

I hope you've enjoyed this sage advice.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I think it's despicable that these paint sellers here on PT actually have time to research the TDS, MDS, and other docs for the products they sell, and then even go even further beyond all decency and try to inform their customers. 

That's why I shop at S-W, and the Big Boxes :whistling2:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> I think it's despicable that these paint sellers here on PT actually have time to research the TDS, MDS, and other docs for the products they sell, and then even go even further beyond all decency and try to inform their customers.
> 
> That's why I shop at S-W, and the Big Boxes :whistling2:


I know! that's what I've been trying to get across about these two and....oh..you were being sarcastic. Never mind:blink:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> If a primer/finish fails on a surface, the manufacturer will claim it was poorly prepped. Absolutely no recourse for the sad painter. At best, some paint will be tossed back to the sad painter out of sympathy, with little to no damage incurred by the paint manufacturer. Unfortunately, no one pays for the painter's labor. Very sad.


Not to be contrarian, but I just had my first BM warranty claim for an extremely minor color fade/change, and they're covering the whole thing. Labor and paint, even though their warranty specifies that they don't cover labor. Might be different if it was a $ 100,000 job, but they weren't finicky about the prep or anything else. Came out, had a look, and paid the entire quote for labor to redo it without even haggling.

Edit: And maybe that's not the kind of failure you meant, I was just somewhat surprised by how easy the process was myself considering how much people bemoan the normal warranty process for some companies.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Somewhat ironically, people shopping the big boxes is why I have occasional time to educate myself about the specifics of my products. Though, I must admit, I rarely browse MSDS sheets- just TDS.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Not to be contrarian, but I just had my first BM warranty claim for an extremely minor color fade/change, and they're covering the whole thing. Labor and paint, even though their warranty specifies that they don't cover labor. Might be different if it was a $ 100,000 job, but they weren't finicky about the prep or anything else. Came out, had a look, and paid the entire quote for labor to redo it without even haggling.
> 
> Edit: And maybe that's not the kind of failure you meant, I was just somewhat surprised by how easy the process was myself considering how much people bemoan the normal warranty process for some companies.


Well, since BM is produced out of the Vatican, I don't think we can really compare them to the others. Let's keep this real.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Well, since BM is produced out of the Vatican, I don't think we can really compare them to the others. Let's keep this real.


Actually just gets the water from the Vatican. The resins are bona fide comet dust and the binders are only found in the arctic circle.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

daArch said:


> I think it's despicable that these paint sellers here on PT actually have time to research the TDS, MDS, and other docs for the products they sell, and then even go even further beyond all decency and try to inform their customers.
> 
> That's why I shop at S-W, and the Big Boxes :whistling2:


Disgusting isn't it! Next thing you know some idiot will start painting competitors products all over his walls to see how they work! MAYBE EVEN ENCOURAGE CUSTOMERS TO DO IT TOO! What is the world coming to!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I know! that's what I've been trying to get across about these two and....oh..you were being sarcastic. Never mind:blink:


THESE TWO? What do you mean THESE TWO? I'm being discriminated against! Waaaaaaa!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Somewhat ironically, people shopping the big boxes is why I have occasional time to educate myself about the specifics of my products. Though, I must admit, I rarely browse MSDS sheets- just TDS.


 I peruse the MSDS sheets quite often during down time myself. It's amazing some of the crap they put in paint these days. Actually a lot of it is the same crap they've been putting in paint since the stone age. They just didn't charge $45 a gallon for it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Somewhat ironically, people shopping the big boxes is why I have occasional time to educate myself about the specifics of my products. Though, I must admit, I rarely browse MSDS sheets- just TDS.


We in the stores can have days when we have quite a bit of down time. Maybe we should be searching for some good bikini pics or something.
You'd be amazed how quickly you can make 40 phone sales calls. It gets tedious sometimes. So rather then spend ALL my downtime with you guys, I occasionally spend a half hour or so looking for ****** in my competition's armor, so to speak. Occasionally on a particularly slow afternoon, I will put a sign with my cell number on the door and go visit my local paint retailers. It amazing how relaxing it can be when the sales clerks can't give up their gossip session at the tint counter to approach a customer. A customer with paint all over his shoes at that. First rule of paint retailing- wrong, actually the second rule of paint retailing-if someone has more than 3 or 4 paint colors on his shoes, he paints for a living. Get in his face with service! Now!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

That damn Thompson's seal is staring at me again!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> THESE TWO? What do you mean THESE TWO? I'm being discriminated against! Waaaaaaa!


You can't lump me with him; he doesn't even drink gin!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PACman said:


> We in the stores can have days when we have quite a bit of down time. Maybe we should be searching for some good bikini pics or something.
> You'd be amazed how quickly you can make 40 phone sales calls. It gets tedious sometimes. So rather then spend ALL my downtime with you guys, I occasionally spend a half hour or so looking for ****** in my competition's armor, so to speak. Occasionally on a particularly slow afternoon, I will put a sign with my cell number on the door and go visit my local paint retailers. It amazing how relaxing it can be when the sales clerks can't give up their gossip session at the tint counter to approach a customer. A customer with paint all over his shoes at that. First rule of paint retailing- wrong, actually the second rule of paint retailing-if someone has more than 3 or 4 paint colors on his shoes, he paints for a living. Get in his face with service! Now!


Wanna draw customers into the store during a slow time?

Grab the daily paper and head to the crapper. As soon as you're settled and the barn door is open, the store will fill.

GUARANTEED


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

daArch said:


> Wanna draw customers into the store during a slow time?
> 
> Grab the daily paper and head to the crapper. As soon as you're settled and the barn door is open, the store will fill.
> 
> GUARANTEED


Whats the first rule?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bryceraisanen said:


> Whats the first rule?


I give up, what is it ?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

daArch said:


> Wanna draw customers into the store during a slow time?
> 
> Grab the daily paper and head to the crapper. As soon as you're settled and the barn door is open, the store will fill.
> 
> GUARANTEED


Until the smell hits them!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PACman said:


> Until the smell hits them!


BTDT

The "washroom" in the store I served time in was RIGHT next to the counter. I couldn't even pretend I was in a back room when I (and companion, P.U.Stinky) exited.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The first rule of retail, according to my as yet unpublished book, Is approach and offer your help to EVERYONE who enters the door! Even people who just go to the color gallery need to be addressed, even if it is just to say hello and offer to help them if they need help. And make sure your are available to them if they do need help. They aren't there just to look at colors no matter what they say. They are already "Shopping" your service. Don't be stupid and lazy, or if they are smart they will take there business somewhere else. Unfortunately, this way of doing business has been buried under mass marketing and cheap pricing so long it takes forever for it to be viable.

For rule three you'll have to buy the book.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Everyone who comes in my store gets talked to in the first 30 seconds, even if it's just to say that I'll be with them as soon as I finish up with the customer I'm with. It's a good rule XD


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

PACman said:


> Not to mention the fact that you can lose bids because the consumer doesn't want or think they need a primer due to all the marketing bull.


Exactly. I just lost a bid because I wanted to prime paneling in a basement .


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Not to be contrarian, but I just had my first BM warranty claim for an extremely minor color fade/change, and they're covering the whole thing. Labor and paint, even though their warranty specifies that they don't cover labor. Might be different if it was a $ 100,000 job, but they weren't finicky about the prep or anything else. Came out, had a look, and paid the entire quote for labor to redo it without even haggling.
> 
> Edit: And maybe that's not the kind of failure you meant, I was just somewhat surprised by how easy the process was myself considering how much people bemoan the normal warranty process for some companies.


Didn't he win the Preakness a few years ago?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Maybe I've got a shot at it, then. I can outrun any horse named contrarian, I dare you to say otherwise!


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> Maybe I've got a shot at it, then. I can outrun any horse named contrarian, I dare you to say otherwise!


Back on topic. So did we ever get a pic of the substrate in question or r we still waiting on that?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

bryceraisanen said:


> Back on topic. So did we ever get a pic of the substrate in question or r we still waiting on that?


Still waiting. But I don't have much hope at this point.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

mug said:


> Exactly. I just lost a bid because I wanted to prime paneling in a basement .


this paint and primer bs hurts all of us.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

bryceraisanen said:


> Back on topic. So did we ever get a pic of the substrate in question or r we still waiting on that?


Wait, there was a substrate?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

bryceraisanen said:


> Back on topic. So did we ever get a pic of the substrate in question or r we still waiting on that?





PACman said:


> Wait, there was a substrate?


He must be referring to the titular butt.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

bryceraisanen said:


> Back on topic. So did we ever get a pic of the substrate in question or r we still waiting on that?


We are still waiting on the prostrate substrate.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> We are still waiting on the prostrate substrate.


Or the exterior of the posterior.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

:whistling2:Sometimes I wonder if threads such as this one are started by a bored mod who wishes to see how far from the original post we can, and most definitely will, take it. A trolling mod, if you will. "Cause we are sure suckers to take the bait.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

SemiproJohn said:


> :whistling2:Sometimes I wonder if threads such as this one are started by a bored mod who wishes to see how far from the original post we can, and most definitely will, take it. A trolling mod, if you will. "Cause we are sure suckers to take the bait.


No, that mod resigned many months ago :whistling2:


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## Pro Color (Nov 6, 2013)

Stay away from the easier, softer way. Without question, prime first.

Now how about the photo?


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

jennifertemple said:


> This was a first time for me buying such a product (AND THE LAST!) Thank heaven I read the label! In effect, it will prime anything that does not need primer! Why has no one mentioned that here? I was not counting on buying the primer but now see it is not optional. What a BS product! I though I knew: ALWAYS start with superior adhesion primer. 30 years in and I feel like an idiot!


Adhesion primer is an interesting idea, it's pretty outside the box thinking. Standard practice is to spec Astroglide primer for these type of jobs.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

TrueColors said:


> I don't know guys..... I've had amazing results with Aura and its self priming. But I guess you get what you pay for.


It was a CIL product. That severed any possibility of an on-going relationship with CIL as well as making me decide to avoid any self priming paint. I generally use Para or BM and always INSUL-X primers, most often Aqua lock. I have never found better primers than theirs in all these years. I simply never trusted the idea of combo paints and now, never will. 

What does the Aura label's fine print say about use and applications?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Pro Color said:


> Stay away from the easier, softer way. Without question, prime first.
> 
> Now how about the photo?


IT LOOKS FINE! I just read the label's fine print and went for primer. So there was no problem with application. CIL gives lousy coverage though. 4 coats over builders beige before the coverage looked even. 

It was all a case of lazy! I did not want to drive back to my regular paint supply and bought what was closer. I know, a stupid, bad move! We all do dumb things a few times in a life.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I was expecting pictures. Sort of disappointed.


There was no need, after reading the label I went for the primer. The job looks great. I don't gamble! If the labels say it works under given conditions, I take them at their word. I just should have read the fine print before putting my money down. It might have been OK anyway but why chance it?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Hasn't it been a big debate here and on other forums about applying paint directly on new rock vs primer? There are various schools of thoughts and both have have good and bad results according to the posters. I've had a contrator ask me to paint directly without primer, the paint is still there, although I prefer to use a primer myself.


It will be the poor slob that gets the repaint that will suffer either during prep or when he stats to roll. The stuff generally looks like it's adhering. I have had jobs where the first time out was not primed and they are often a nightmare!


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

surreal painting said:


> idk this post seems like smoke and mirrors. Even great adhesion products like breakthrough recommend a primer before application. This post comes from reading a can and realizing that the manufacturer recommends a primer.... Ofc they do to cover the bottom line.
> 
> Not impressed by this thread. It would be one thing if the product failed you but it seems you just failed to read the can.



 mea culpa!!​


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

chrisn said:


> How come the self priming butt girl has not been back?


She went out for primer and started working! She has a life off the boards. Where else would she find things to bitch about here?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> Not to be contrarian, but I just had my first BM warranty claim for an extremely minor color fade/change, and they're covering the whole thing. Labor and paint, even though their warranty specifies that they don't cover labor. Might be different if it was a $ 100,000 job, but they weren't finicky about the prep or anything else. Came out, had a look, and paid the entire quote for labor to redo it without even haggling.
> 
> Edit: And maybe that's not the kind of failure you meant, I was just somewhat surprised by how easy the process was myself considering how much people bemoan the normal warranty process for some companies.


 YUP!! BM did the same for me when a product they recommended ruined a big Faux finish job. They paid the labor plus every scrap of material to the last inch of painters tape. I do love them when they stand up!


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the laughs & the useful info about the nature of self primers. 

As for my punctuation, MAN!, I really need to be more careful. NO PICTURES OF THE POSTERIOR OR OTHER! I decided to prime the walls instead of my butt! Don't ask me why, it just seemed to make sense after I gave the situation a little more thought.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

In new construction here, companies are very competitive and push their employees to work as fast as they can, not always doing the best job. They often spray and back roll 2 coats of "self priming" paint straight on new drywall. I don't feel it's the best practice, and they don't use the best paint anyways, but it'd be a problem if all the jobs were pealing off and had to repaint everything.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate, for the knowledge's sake.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> She went out for primer and started working! She has a life off the boards. Where else would she find things to bitch about here?


You can understand our confusion can't you?


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