# Spraying BM ADVANCE: Hvlp or airless?



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Anyone have any experience spraying ADVANCE?...I have a Kit cabinet job to do..I'll probably use STIX primer and shoot 2 finish coats and let them dry for a few days lying flat on my steel wire rack...I hope it doesn't leave marks on the other side as it is curing...Will be spraying doors off-site and roll/brush the carcass on-site..

I can HVLP it or use my airless...suggestions?


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

hmmm.

I have never sprayed it.

Even using waterborne alkyds by hand, I have been disappointed that the can says *do not thin*.

I need a paint that I can reduce to varying degrees, for varying reasons/applications.

I have tried advance, and another waterborne alkyd from PPG. I was not that happy with them. The Advance definitely leveled out really well, and I got the PPG to work. But surprisingly the open time was not that great on either of them, certainly not compared to Satin Impervo alkyd.

But I will say, the smell was not nearly as bad as traditional oil paint.

But I can't imagine spraying any material that I did not have the ability to reduce to whatever viscosity I felt was necessary to achieve a good finish.

And in particular with HVLP, proper reduction becomes even more critical.

I have read you can thin waterborne alkyds with a "little water".

I haven't had the nads to try it. I have also heard there is tipping point where too much water will change some some kind of balance point in the mixture, and will cause problems with drying/curing.

It seems like the stuff doesn't wash out of my brushes that well. In particular the advance left my brush stained in a way that no acrylic would have.

I definately don't like the idea of putting a waterborne alkyd into an airless paint sprayer, then cleaning it out with water.

I am leaning towards avoiding waterborne alkyds all together.

The acrylic technology has really come a long ways. I feel like we are within reach of using acrylic finishes for everything, and not needing oil except for certain priming applications, clear finish applications, or industrial applications.

I would rather just have one medium, it makes life easier.

But then, I could just be biased from living under a lifelong rule that you don't mix oil and water.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

1.5 for HVLP or 211 fft for your airless. 1575 on pressure for my airless co lp540. 

I would wait as long as possible to flip and paint if I were laying flat to spray.


----------



## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I spray advance with an AAA, no thinning needed, I don't see the need. If you want to shot less paint then adjust your tip size. If you want total control then shot with HVLP. Open time has been good;its Not satin impervo and its not an acrylic. I say its somewhere in between(which is a good thing, to long of an open time allows airborne dust to land on the cabinets).


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

That looks really good..Can I borrow your AAA?


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> 1.5 for HVLP or 211 fft for your airless. 1575 on pressure for my airless co lp540.
> 
> I would wait as long as possible to flip and paint if I were laying flat to spray.


My HVLP only has a 1.4mm and a 2.0 mm...Do you think oil satin Impervo would be easier?...I'm a bit worried about the hot air from the turbine messing with the finish...I have a 4 stage.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

If I had a 4 stage I wouldn't hesitate to spray them. 1.4 would work I think. 

Oil is always easier to work with, at least in my eyes. Like someone said it does allow more dust to settle on your finish with the longer cure time. 

I like spraying advance though, just flipping them before a few days cure would worry me.


----------



## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

AAA or HVLP would be the best. The issue i would have with airless is would the product atomize correctly? some of the hybrid products do not atomize well with the airless causing major issues with leveling. if you have a AAA then that would be 100% my vote, if not HVLP. or maybe an old diafram sprayer before the airless.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Of course an HVLP will give you a finer finish. 










However advance levels very nicely. These two shot with an airless.


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Didn't someone recently post photos etc. praising BM advance with a titan 440i with a fft for a set of cabinets? Could've sworn I saw it, because it had me considering messing around with my own cabinets. 

Or was that you Gotdibz, with the AAA?


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Csheils said:


> Didn't someone recently post photos etc. praising BM advance with a titan 440i with a fft for a set of cabinets? Could've sworn I saw it, because it had me considering messing around with my own cabinets.
> 
> Or was that you Gotdibz, with the AAA?



Ya, that was Jeff. Room in a Day...he'll be along I'm sure.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I messed around with it with my 5 stage a while back. I really didnt care for thinning it down. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it with my AA.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> I messed around with it with my 5 stage a while back. I really didnt care for thinning it down. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it with my AA.


If that's the case ,I'll just use my airless and a 312FF...Keeping the pressure as low as possible...Wish I had a AAA...I don't want to thin it more than 5-10%.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Last Craftsman said:


> hmmm.
> 
> I have never sprayed it.
> 
> ...


I always wash my stuff with water then thinner then water again when using the hybrids.


----------



## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Have sprayed it a couple of times with a graco ff tip 310 or 212. Dries very nice at indoor temp set to 70 with very little humidity inside.


----------



## b2dap1 (Mar 18, 2009)

i have a house to start next week. All builder grade stained trim and 28 six panel solid wood flat doors. I was thinking about giving Advance SG a try but have never sprayed it. What would my best FF tip through a 440i?


----------



## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Buy a conversion tip guard to convert from titan to graco. Graco x the blue tip guard and a graco ff tip. No thinning required. Hit the doors with a good primer, 2 coats, let dry, sand, tach cloth 1~2 coats depends on quality of wood and open grain or not.


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Csheils said:


> Didn't someone recently post photos etc. praising BM advance with a titan 440i with a fft for a set of cabinets? Could've sworn I saw it, because it had me considering messing around with my own cabinets.
> 
> Or was that you Gotdibz, with the AAA?


That was me. I used a 411ff and turned up to about 3/4 on my 440i Quick passes,let cure for 2 days before flip. We set the doors on strips of laminate foam underlay for insurance. It is a hard finish after 24 hours. I have a Erectarack now so i wouldnt worry so much.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> If that's the case ,I'll just use my airless and a 312FF...Keeping the pressure as low as possible...Wish I had a AAA...I don't want to thin it more than 5-10%.


you gotta do tack coats if using a 12orfice size, other wise it will run like a mofo on you.

Pat


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Ps. That kitchen job got me 3 more...
just closed one today!


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

b2dap1 said:


> i have a house to start next week. All builder grade stained trim and 28 six panel solid wood flat doors. I was thinking about giving Advance SG a try but have never sprayed it. What would my best FF tip through a 440i?


Don't load it on. 2 quick coats...411ff worked for me on the 440i


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Gotdibz;
Candy! Love it :thumbsup:


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> I always wash my stuff with water then thinner then water again when using the hybrids.


You have to with the Proshot.....which by the way is the wrong weapon to use with Advance.:whistling2:


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

ROOMINADAY said:


> Ps. That kitchen job got me 3 more...
> just closed one today!


Isn't that awesome how that works


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> Isn't that awesome how that works


The only reason I run ad's is so that people can find us, it isn't for leads -

One was a relative of the lady we did it for, one was from our facebook posting of the project and the last one was a referral from a custom Kitchen manufacture who saw our work when they installed the new counter.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Gotdibz said:


> I spray advance with an AAA, no thinning needed, I don't see the need.


Air Assist makes that possible. I spray everything with a standard airless and get perfect leveling on everything except really detailed/ornate trim work which, needs finer atomization combined with less volume, than a standard airless can provide.

But I need to be able to reduce paint to desired viscosity to achieve that.

Especially if I want to shoot through a 309.



Gotdibz said:


> Open time has been good;its Not satin impervo and its not an acrylic. I say its somewhere in between(which is a good thing, to long of an open time allows airborne dust to land on the cabinets).


When spraying surfaces vertically, rather than horizontally, dust is much less of an issue.

And spraying cabinet doors by laying them flat means you can not finish both sides at one time.

Also, sometimes, depending on the profile of the edge of the cabinet door, there is also a detectable overspray transition from where wet paint meets dry paint.

Spraying cabinet doors vertically eliminates both of those issues, but you definitely need a lot of control over the millage to achieve that, and to avoid getting runs or sags.

Nothing that I know of drys faster than acrylic when you have the heat cranked up other than lacquer and shellac. A

Also, oil yellows.

Since I have switched to acrylic, dust has been less of an issue than ever before, even when I spray horizontal surfaces like mantles or window boxes.

And I was a die hard alkyd satin impervo user for many years, and I perfected the use of Naptha for quick dry, and perfect leveling. I never thought in a million years I would use an acrylic product.

But I have changed my ways, and I am not looking back.

DEATH TO OIL!

:whistling2:

***

But sometimes projects are speced for a oil, and I guess that needs to be accommodated.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> I always wash my stuff with water then thinner then water again when using the hybrids.


Yeah, I think it was the Advance if I remember correctly which said wash with both water and thinner.

I would rather just wash with water.

That is another main reason I like not dealing with oil.

I don't like dealing with paint thinner. I don't like carrying it around. Or carrying a container and funnel to put it in. I don't like breathing it. I don't like getting it on my hands or drop cloths. And of course, buying it sucks.


----------



## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Last Craftsman said:


> Yeah, I think it was the Advance if I remember correctly which said wash with both water and thinner.
> 
> I would rather just wash with water.
> 
> ...


Should be using thinner to store your airless? Or kerosene. Imho.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Last Craftsman said:


> Yeah, I think it was the Advance if I remember correctly which said wash with both water and thinner.
> 
> I would rather just wash with water.
> 
> ...


I use acrylics for just about everything...Kitchen Cabinets take so long to cure (using an acrylic) that I thought I would try a hybrid like Advance...It is a rock hard enamel that cures much faster than an acrylic...I've had ONE complaint of the cabinets sticking together using acrylics...Therefore I'm trying something new.

My go-to cabinet paint is called "cabinet coat"...It's a poly acrylic.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> My go-to cabinet paint is called "cabinet coat"...It's a poly acrylic.


Agreed. It's F-ing awesome.

You have had problems with cabinets sticking?

I have not had that. Do you crank the heat during spraying, during, drying, then all night to kick off the curing process?

Also, do you tell customers not to wash them for a month?

I tell them the longer they wait to wash them the better. And to never use anything abrasive.

Acrylics don't have the ability to withstand a hurricance the way other paints do, but I make sure to tell the clients not to subject the cabinets to a hurricane.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Last Craftsman said:


> Agreed. It's F-ing awesome.
> 
> You have had problems with cabinets sticking?
> 
> ...


Also many customers want a semi-gloss and Cabinet Coat only comes in a low luster satin...You also can't get it in dark colors.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Julian&co said:


> Should be using thinner to store your airless? Or kerosene. Imho.



Corrocheck works good. Water soluble. A little dab'll do ya'.

Our airlesses don't sit for too long, and they never freeze.

I have not used thinner to store an airless in quite a while.

I use almost exclusively acrylic. I would not want to have to put an oil base product in the machine between each job, then purge it out, chase with a little water, then back into the acrylic paint between every job.

That would be hassle.

I keep everything water base, it's easier.


----------



## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

This thread is as good as any to ask these questions.
I have read the threads I can find and don't seem to be better off in deciding the best way to go on a remodel project.

The details are that customers are at there winter home and the summer home is getting work done on it. I can move furniture around as needed.
From whole rooms to fix this fix that in other areas.

No paint records or paint left to see what was used except from the last painter. The same painter I compete with for this re modeler. I have been given the job over him. He used BM Satin Impervo(oil).

Sadly to say my brush skills are not what they should be since most of my experience was in new construction. I tend to do what I do best and that is cover and spray.

There will be a good deal of repair done by both the re modeler and myself so some priming will need to be done.

If my brush skills were better I would just use the same product that was used before and only spray the larger areas. But there not.
I want to keep basically the same look since repainted and old work will be butting up to each other.

I don't want to use oil! but if it sounds like that is the best bet I will.

Does it sound like BM Advance is a good alternative product to use?
If I use Advance do I need to prime all surfaces I will use it on or just the repaired areas?
Best primer to use under the Advance? I have ideas from other posts.
I can use the Titan 440i and have no problem running both thinners and water though it. Or I can use the Graco AAA but I have only run waterborne though it and don't like the idea of thinners in it at all. I know it is unfounded.:blink:

If I do this right I am supposed to be the go to painter for these customers. I would love to switch now to waterborne but don't know if I should push it.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> I use acrylics for just about everything...Kitchen Cabinets take so long to cure (using an acrylic) that I thought I would try a hybrid like Advance...It is a rock hard enamel that cures much faster than an acrylic...I've had ONE complaint of the cabinets sticking together using acrylics...Therefore I'm trying something new.
> 
> My go-to cabinet paint is called "cabinet coat"...It's a poly acrylic.


JW - 
Have you sprayed it out of a HVLP and if so, how'd it work? Anyone else?


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

researchhound said:


> JW -
> Have you sprayed it out of a HVLP and if so, how'd it work? Anyone else?


If you are asking about the Cabinet Coat,YES I have used a HVLP to spray it...I thin it with about 10% distilled water.I like the round spray pattern that allows you to spray the sides and the tricky routered areas easily...I have always sprayed the doors flat and really put on a thick wet coat...That stuff levels out amazingly...It's a pretty slow process with a HVLP......The instructions say to use a HVLP as an airless might not lay it down properly because it's a poly blend paint...{Maybe they have updated the spray instructions to include an airless...I don't know.}


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> I use acrylics for just about everything...Kitchen Cabinets take so long to cure (using an acrylic) that I thought I would try a hybrid like Advance...It is a rock hard enamel that cures much faster than an acrylic...I've had ONE complaint of the cabinets sticking together using acrylics...Therefore I'm trying something new.
> 
> My go-to cabinet paint is called "cabinet coat"...It's a poly acrylic.


Let me share how we combat sticking cabinets. Don't close them. Ever! Problem solved.

Nah, after cleaning 'handled' areas with krud kutter, we take a can of Cover Stain and shoot those areas including the back side stile of the doors. By doing it that way, you know for certain if its paint or if was oils under the new coat of paint. Bifold knobs... a quick spray around them too. Anything where cooking grease and oils from hands. Krud kutter works incredibly good on cabinets before a repaint.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> If you are asking about the Cabinet Coat,YES I have used a HVLP to spray it...I thin it with about 10% distilled water.I like the round spray pattern that allows you to spray the sides and the tricky routered areas easily...I have always sprayed the doors flat and really put on a thick wet coat...That stuff levels out amazingly...It's a pretty slow process with a HVLP......The instructions say to use a HVLP as an airless might not lay it down properly because it's a poly blend paint...{Maybe they have updated the spray instructions to include an airless...I don't know.}


Thanks JW - that is what I was asking.
Yeah, it is somewhat slower with an HVLP but I've always liked the amount of control and lack of over spray you get with it. Just haven't had good success spraying water-based products out of it. Looking for something to use on cabinets, doors, and trim that will give the leveling and durable finish of an oil but with the quicker dry time of a water-based.


----------

