# I think I’m gonna switch to Benjamin Moore



## SweetLu (Feb 28, 2017)

So I’ve been pretty loyal to SW, because of the price and my Rep is a great guy. But I’ve been having too many problems, especially with Opulence (Cashmere). It bubbles over patches if it’s humid out and it literally can ruin an entire day of painting. Also I’ve noticed a lot of Top Hatting and it’s just disappointing.

I’ve used a lot of Regal Select before and love it, buts I don’t get the best price for it, so I tried out Ben, and I’m really liking it. Do any of you use Ben a lot? Thoughts?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SweetLu said:


> So I’ve been pretty loyal to SW, because of the price and my Rep is a great guy. But I’ve been having too many problems, especially with Opulence (Cashmere). It bubbles over patches if it’s humid out and it literally can ruin an entire day of painting. Also I’ve noticed a lot of Top Hatting and it’s just disappointing.
> 
> I’ve used a lot of Regal Select before and love it, buts I don’t get the best price for it, so I tried out Ben, and I’m really liking it. Do any of you use Ben a lot? Thoughts?


top hatting? With a Sherwin Williams product? The HELL you say!:devil3:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Well, after the last discussion on top hatting, at least I know we're not talking about the definition that involves honest Abe!:biggrin:

The things one learns on Paint Talk!


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

There is a world of difference between Ben and Regal. Regal is far superior, and worth its pricetag.
Ben does not cover anywhere near Regal, you can spot prime patches with Regal with no flashing, 
and Regal dries to a much more extremely durable finish. In my opinion, Ben is just one step above all Ultra Spec 500 where Regal is a whole flight of steps above Ben. As far as pricing goes I know all contractors would like a huge discount on products, and on some products I get outstanding pricing on others not so much. The client pays for materials so it really shouldn't be an issue what you are paying for Regal especially when its makes your job so much easier. The Regal line really helped make Benjamine Moore what it is today. Again Regal is an outstanding product and well worth its price tag.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Ahh, the days of explaining to customers that Regal Wall Satin was a flat, not satin, finish. Probably the most misleading label in paint labeling history...and it took BM decades to rectify! smh


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Ben is fine for rentals, etc. but for anything else you're gonna love regal. Nice quick dry time, higher solids, etc. As previously mentioned it's miles ahead of Ben. I've used tons of ben, but over the past couple of years I've noticed the blistering happening over patches that have been primed. Not sure what that's about, but it certainly made me shy away from it.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

loaded brush said:


> There is a world of difference between Ben and Regal. Regal is far superior, and worth its pricetag.
> Ben does not cover anywhere near Regal, you can spot prime patches with Regal with no flashing,
> and Regal dries to a much more extremely durable finish. In my opinion, Ben is just one step above all Ultra Spec 500 where Regal is a whole flight of steps above Ben. As far as pricing goes I know all contractors would like a huge discount on products, and on some products I get outstanding pricing on others not so much. The client pays for materials so it really shouldn't be an issue what you are paying for Regal especially when its makes your job so much easier. The Regal line really helped make Benjamine Moore what it is today. Again Regal is an outstanding product and well worth its price tag.


Gonna have to agree to disagree and say I think Ultraspec is above Ben in performance and finish. I realize it's not meant to be that way, but in my experience it definitely is. I also feel like sometimes the higher end Ben Moore products dry a little too fast and kind of drag more than glide when you're applying whereas the Ultraspec hits more of a nice balance


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Finally got to run some Scuffx this week. Man that stuff is nice to cut with, zero drag going over garbage builder flat.

Hide was a little questionable but that could have been the color, it was BM Butternut which is a yellowish cream going over a darker muted out beige.

The matte finish was more is an eggshell imho but it might dry out flatter. The satin was nice, both had an amazing feel to the the touch.

I've used Ben before and hated it, reminds me of Promar 200 I don't like either.

Regal is a nice product! Thick and has some weight to it, however for as thick as it is the paint brushes and rolls like a champ. Covers amazing and has a nice finish but it didn't seem to go as far as other BM products.

Aura is my choice for Red or any real deep colors for that matter. I know people have had issues applying it, while it's not my favorite application wise I don't find it too bad.

Even though I still use plenty of SW Benjamin Moore scuffx and Regal destroy Sherwin on almost every level. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Aura is my choice for Red or any real deep colors for that matter. I know people have had issues applying it, while it's not my favorite application wise I don't find it too bad.


When Aura first came on the scene I was painting an Atlanta Braves themed game room - red and blue color scheme. New construction. It was a bonus room, so it had 4 foot knee walls with sloping ceilings. Normally in new construction work I spray walls first, mask walls with 18" kraft paper, then spray ceilings. With knee walls and sloping ceilings this method doesn't work well, so after painting the ceiling and priming the walls (tinted grey) I cut in the walls and sprayed the wall to within about 2 ' of the ceiling and backrolled. After 3 coats (actually followed specs on dry time between coats, as it was a dark color), the cut in still looked lousy. Ended up masking the ceiling with 4' kraft and spraying the ceiling wall interface. One day job turning into a two day event.

To this day I have no idea why that particular color of red did not want to cover. Had I not been spraying, I know coverage would have been a real problem. It was literally the worst coverage I've ever seen in a deep base color. 

But with most colors (even most reds I'm sure) Aura does better than it did in this incident. I'd still rather use Regal .


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## SweetLu (Feb 28, 2017)

So what I’m getting here is that Regal should be my go to? If so I wanna get my pricing down. Better get on the phone with my Benjamin Moore rep.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

SweetLu said:


> So what I’m getting here is that Regal should be my go to? If so I wanna get my pricing down. Better get on the phone with my Benjamin Moore rep.





If you can get Regal as your go to, yer not gonna be dissapointed. I can guarantee you that. Any step up or down from there on occasion you'll notice and that eventually will be something you'll get used to.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Used a 4b aura (exterior satin)arroyo red. Legitimate 1 coat coverage over moorewhite 100 primer. I was absolutely shocked. In a good way.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Well, after the last discussion on top hatting, at least I know we're not talking about the definition that involves honest Abe!:biggrin:
> 
> The things one learns on Paint Talk!


Who's honest Abe?:biggrin:


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I love Regal for brushing trim. Is the eggshell too shiny? I've only used the Regal matte for walls. My favorite from paint to roll is the Ultra Spec 500 'low sheen'. It looks fantastic so it's my go-to paint for houses about to be sold.

I wish I knew the durability of the ultra spec 500 as I would use it 100% of the time, but I suspect that it is just above contractor grade judging by the way it feels to the touch.


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

The Ultra Spec 500 has a 2500 scrub test rating. pm200 is 500 for a quick comparison.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

KooLayed369 said:


> The Ultra Spec 500 has a 2500 scrub test rating. pm200 is 500 for a quick comparison.


What is your source? Do you have a link? 

I've been asking my paint reps for years about actual durability tests and none of them have an answer.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> What is your source? Do you have a link?
> 
> I've been asking my paint reps for years about actual durability tests and none of them have an answer.


scrub tests used to be in the tech data sheet for most products. I don't think they are anymore for most manufacturers.

FYI, EVO had to turn their scrub test machine off because the motor was about to burn out it went so many reps. On their flat. Or so i've heard.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

Mr Smith said:


> I love Regal for brushing trim. Is the eggshell too shiny? I've only used the Regal matte for walls. My favorite from paint to roll is the Ultra Spec 500 'low sheen'. It looks fantastic so it's my go-to paint for houses about to be sold.
> I wish I knew the durability of the ultra spec 500 as I would use it 100% of the time, but I suspect that it is just above contractor grade judging by the way it feels to the touch.


I've been to houses and projects that we've used ultraspec on nearly ten years ago and it held up exceptionally well. I like regal and don't hate aura but Ultraspec will always be my go to.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've never tried Ultraspec but I used to hate superspec. 

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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've never tried Ultraspec but I used to hate superspec.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk



Superspec was trash. Complete garbage. I've used a lot of ultraspec flat for ceilings, but that's about it. Never tried the eggshell for walls. Should give it a go some time.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Ok. Like every post this one has gone into several tangents. The big question is BM better with less problems than SW. Just use a daily log book and jot down notes on every project that you do. keep notes of every product that you use from every manufacturer. At the end of each job note how the paint products performed how easy they were to apply and how much time was involved to touch them up due to difficulties or product failures. We did this for an entire year. Approximately 325 days of notes. After going back and reading through this log book we determined that SW required more time more effort more labor cost and more difficulties for every aspect of painting. A Benjamin Moore equivalent to every SW product worked better saved time was easier to apply and lasted longer. labor cost more than material. If you have to spend a couple of dollars more per gallon for BM it's still more cost-effective then the amount of labor required for inferior SW products.


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## SweetLu (Feb 28, 2017)

Zoomer, post of the year.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

SweetLu said:


> Zoomer, post of the year.


Thanks SweetLu👍


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> What is your source? Do you have a link?
> 
> I've been asking my paint reps for years about actual durability tests and none of them have an answer.


I dont have a link, but Benjamin Moore teaches this to their store employees. Ill look for some info and post if I find it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

KooLayed369 said:


> I dont have a link, but Benjamin Moore teaches this to their store employees. Ill look for some info and post if I find it.


Arent you a Kelly Moore guy?


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Arent you a Kelly Moore guy?


Used to be. I now work for a larger Ben Moore dealer in the Houston area. I still have a good relationship with my old boss at the Kelly Moore store, and we talk about product quite often. I was just offered a better opportunity here to advance faster and learn more. Maybe Ill unite both brands in one store and take over the paint retail market in ways never imagined possible!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

KooLayed369 said:


> Used to be. I now work for a larger Ben Moore dealer in the Houston area. I still have a good relationship with my old boss at the Kelly Moore store, and we talk about product quite often. I was just offered a better opportunity here to advance faster and learn more. Maybe Ill unite both brands in one store and take over the paint retail market in ways never imagined possible!


wouldn't that be like....incest?


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

KooLayed369 said:


> I dont have a link, but Benjamin Moore teaches this to their store employees. Ill look for some info and post if I find it.


Store employees implies that they have stores. No they have individual suppliers. Independant stores that carry their products. They do have a superior paint, but some of their distributors are pretty weak. I have ordered 10/5's in the morning only to be told in the afternoon they only have 4/5 in the deep base and will not have the rest until the next day. Say what you will about SW but they are well stocked and they are everywhere and their paint sucks. Except for the preindustrial enamel.


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## colorbuzz (Dec 6, 2018)

SweetLu said:


> So I’ve been pretty loyal to SW, because of the price and my Rep is a great guy. But I’ve been having too many problems, especially with Opulence (Cashmere). It bubbles over patches if it’s humid out and it literally can ruin an entire day of painting. Also I’ve noticed a lot of Top Hatting and it’s just disappointing.
> 
> I’ve used a lot of Regal Select before and love it, buts I don’t get the best price for it, so I tried out Ben, and I’m really liking it. Do any of you use Ben a lot? Thoughts?


I am a color consultant. My favorite paint is Benjamin Moore Regal Select in Matte finish. It is washable and zero VOC. SW has paints that are zero VOC but their tints are not zero VOC... Benjamin Moore manufactures their own zero VOC tints (which is why I don't recommend matching BM colors with another brand paint). You can buy cheaper paints, but you can end up spending more if you have to paint more coats.

H


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Store employees implies that they have stores. No they have individual suppliers. Independant stores that carry their products. They do have a superior paint, but some of their distributors are pretty weak. I have ordered 10/5's in the morning only to be told in the afternoon they only have 4/5 in the deep base and will not have the rest until the next day. Say what you will about SW but they are well stocked and they are everywhere and their paint sucks. Except for the preindustrial enamel.


Yes every store is individually owned, but Benjamin Moore still sends out reps from the Benjamin Moore brand (not individual stores) to train employees at their dealer stores so that they can be knowledgeable about the product they sell. The company I work for is independent, and we carry several top brands of paint and coatings, covering various sectors, and Benjamin Moore is the only one that sends out training reps to (individual) stores to train employees on their product. Other reps will come in and give a binder and a short presentation, but not a 3 hr training session. I cant speak to other dealers operations, but we keep a decent sized stock, and if we dont have something that is ordered, we let the customer know right then, not later. Of course, there are special order items, and smaller dealers cant keep everything in stock. Keeping 50+ gallons of every line in every base including the premade colors, plus stain and sundries, would require a rather large store space with deep pockets. If something doesnt sell much, why have so much space dedicated to it? 1 day isnt long, order ahead and boom its there. But, for some (a lot), planning ahead is hard so convenience is above quality. Thats why big box stores exist. 

Another benefit of being a dealer vs. corporate store, I can sell you anything I want. Not just the corporate branded product. I could even sell you a truck if you wanted to pay my markup :wink:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Store employees implies that they have stores. No they have individual suppliers. Independant stores that carry their products. They do have a superior paint, but some of their distributors are pretty weak. I have ordered 10/5's in the morning only to be told in the afternoon they only have 4/5 in the deep base and will not have the rest until the next day. Say what you will about SW but they are well stocked and they are everywhere and their paint sucks. Except for the preindustrial enamel.





FFS give your store a heads up you need those materials. How can you not know ahead of time you needed 50 gallons of a deep base color? Seems like poor planning and communication on your part to be honest.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> FFS give your store a heads up you need those materials. How can you not know ahead of time you needed 50 gallons of a deep base color? Seems like poor planning and communication on your part to be honest.


I order from 1-5 paint stores every morning, for afternoon delivery. Usually e-mail my PO's. Each of these stores service numerous contractors. The call always comes in the afternoon about any shortages leaving you little time to go to another supplier. The company I work for prefers to have all paint the day before so they can send the painters straight to the job in the morning. The warehouse is not so big that you can buy your paint a week out ( unless it's a specialty coating or some idea paint crap ) Our super gives us 1-2 day notice before jobs start. I guess I just assume the paint store has everything I need and if they don't they will get it without telling me.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Vinyl 54X said:


> I order from 1-5 paint stores every morning, for afternoon delivery. Usually e-mail my PO's. Each of these stores service numerous contractors. The call always comes in the afternoon about any shortages leaving you little time to go to another supplier. The company I work for prefers to have all paint the day before so they can send the painters straight to the job in the morning. The warehouse is not so big that you can buy your paint a week out ( unless it's a specialty coating or some idea paint crap ) Our super gives us 1-2 day notice before jobs start. I guess I just assume the paint store has everything I need and if they don't they will get it without telling me.



Just saying... most of my large orders give me at least a weeks notice to order materials. Most jobs are planned months and even years out. Seems crazy to not let them know ahead of time... Most BM dealers in my area only keep 45-60 gallons of regal in stock for example. Not saying you have to order and have them mix it.. but I really don'y understand how it could be last minute all of a sudden you need 50 gallons for a job. That must have been in the pipeline for quite a long time. Just let them know 'hey I have a job coming up. such and such color about 50 gallons'. Then they can have it in stock for you. Easy!


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

SweetLu said:


> So what I’m getting here is that Regal should be my go to? If so I wanna get my pricing down. Better get on the phone with my Benjamin Moore rep.


BM really doesn't play with pricing in my experience. All the stores around here just give a flat 5 or 10% off for contractors off retail and that's it. No games like SW, for better or worse. Better in that pricing is consistent, worse in that sometimes if you're friendly and the people like you at your local SW store, they'll do steep discounts. 

For me honestly, I wish I could really be gung ho about BM, but I actually mostly prefer SW for wall and ceiling paints. Mainly that I don't like the fast dry times of a lot of BM stuff, and I've had a lot of issues with flashing on certain surfaces/conditions. Advance probably is the best easy stuff to get on the market for trim with Muralo gone, though. SW's Emerald urethane alkyd is close and is a little like Advance with better workability, but MSRPs for a lot more and isn't as proven as Advance. Proclassic Latex by comparison is just complete trash, compared to Advance, but it's the closest in MSRP. 

I will say for wall paints, one thing that DOES make BM better is SW tends to gray out their bases a bit, to get better coverage with less titanium. BM's whites tend to be truer whites, and everything tends to be truer to color chips. So for high end ceilings prepped well, it's very good, but again I've had issues with the fast dry times of 508. SW's ceiling paints by comparison tend to be grayer and flatter and hide more issues. I will be quite honest and say Regal Matte is the best looking wall paint on the market if conditions are good while you're applying it, or you add a bit of water. 

Ben and Ultra Spec are OK. I think Ultra Spec flat actually kind of sucks, though. I think even Valspar 2000 is a better flat than it, at least on walls, though the Ultra Spec flat is "deader." The eggshells and all the other sheens are actually really durable, though. Ben is a bit less shiny for eggshell than Ultra Spec. I've not used Natura, though the guy I work for a lot who uses almost all BM now says he likes it.

I think switching to all BM is an OK idea, as it tends to make you look more "premium" and all that. But as much as SW is the Evil Empire, for the most part it worked out that I had less issues with SW on walls and ceilings, and more issues with it on trim, and less issues with BM on trim but more on ceilings and walls. Thankfully the BM wall issues was not my job and I was just subbing, but SW on trim just can't really compete.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

"hey guess what! I'm going to be a painting contractor today! I should go to a paint store and order a bunch of paint in a base they haven't sold in 2 years and expect them to have it all! Then bitch because they don't."


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

so all joking aside, who do you think ultimately pays for all that inventory sitting around waiting to be bought at the local SW store? YOU DO! Either in increased pricing or LOWER QUALITY/COST! It comes out of your pocket eventually. The more times an independent store turns it's inventory the more profitable it will be. SW charges enough, and has lower enough costs that the stores can sit on unsold inventory. It does cost money to have it sit and wait, and you are paying for that. Just like how you are all paying for the convenience of having an SW store 5 minutes from every job you have. Kind of like paying $7.99 for a 2.25 oz bag of beef jerky at the Speedway as opposed to paying $3.99 for a 3 oz bag at Walmart. If any independent paint store had a comparable percentage of local paint sales to what a Walmart does in general sales, you would be able to get much higher quality paint at a significantly lower price than you currently do at most independent paint stores. Sales volume and inventory turns drive profits, and SW has completely eliminated the potentiality of those things happening at the independent stores simply by enlarging the gap between their cost and their selling price (higher pricing and lower cost/quality) to pay for the ability to sit on inventory. This is why having fewer paint sku's (different items) is so critical to independents. It behooves then to have much, much more of the items that they sell the most of and very little of what they don't. 

If you like the product and service of an independent store than it behooves (my new word i guess) you to accommodate them just a little bit and let them know ahead of time of any potential product needs you may have. Most of my customers gladly do it and it is a big help.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I don't have a lot of experience using Sherwin Williams paints. My rep there says the eggshell paints are really shiny so I haven't tried them. I also find their paints costs unreasonable. I get much better prices with Dulux, which is a company owned by PPG in Canada. I also use BM but tend to use only Regal or Ultra Spec 500 for walls. The Natura is a nice paint but expensive. The semi-gloss is great for trim because it levels out fantastically. I'll bet most of you didn't know that about Natura. It might be better than Regal for brushing trim.

Also if spraying, BEN is a great choice for trim and doors. Not so much for walls unless you add extender.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

PACman said:


> "hey guess what! I'm going to be a painting contractor today! I should go to a paint store and order a bunch of paint in a base they haven't sold in 2 years and expect them to have it all! Then bitch because they don't."


Not a contractor. I just work for one. We only order draw downs when we have the job, So If the paint store makes samples in 7 colors 5 of them deep. That's fair warning. I know colors get changed or deleted all the time and the store does not know if you will need 1 or 20 gallons of each color. I just figure we are not the only ones being beaten down with Pantone colors out there. I can bitch if I want.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Not a contractor. I just work for one. We only order draw downs when we have the job, So If the paint store makes samples in 7 colors 5 of them deep. That's fair warning. I know colors get changed or deleted all the time and the store does not know if you will need 1 or 20 gallons of each color. I just figure we are not the only ones being beaten down with Pantone colors out there. I can bitch if I want.


never said you couldn't bitch. Have at it! But what about "about three gallons of this drawdown, 10 of this one, 8 of this." Or "this is the main wall color in 4 rooms, this is the bedroom color in two rooms." etc. It is a big help. But then again now that SW controls the contractor paint business, why bother? They'll always be right where i need them with just the paint i need. Until they aren't...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

What you guys are saying about ordering in advance makes perfect sense. Ists something us painters dont think about. Apparently, Im one of few people that would order Manor Hall exterior and Pure Performance, so they didnt have what I needed in stock once in a while. 

Know this though. This is the first time I've ever heard from a paint salesman that we should give a heads up before ordering. No in store salesman has ever said to me: "We dont keep a lot of this in stock, so let us know a few days in advance before ordering 15 gallons of it. Kthanksbai.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

My BM dealer stocks more than most, but also moves more paint than most paint stores. And a lot of contractors. More than once they would be short on 5's of Regal ,Ben or Ulta Spec (well Super Spec for most of my career). They got trucks on Tuesday and Thursday. I learned early on to always have large orders placed in time to accommodate their delivery schedule. Otherwise might be SOL. And if you didn't pre order large orders they would give you a friendly b1tchin' out.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> My BM dealer stocks more than most, but also moves more paint than most paint stores. And a lot of contractors. More than once they would be short on 5's of Regal ,Ben or Ulta Spec (well Super Spec for most of my career). They got trucks on Tuesday and Thursday. I learned early on to always have large orders placed in time to accommodate their delivery schedule. Otherwise might be SOL. And if you didn't pre order large orders they would give you a friendly b1tchin' out.



Don't even need to necessarily 'order', probably just let them know your planning on using a large quantity. I would just order in extra with my regular order. Also nice because then you wouldn't clean out my inventory.


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

Ya, between our 7 locations, we get deliveries daily from BM, and if one of our stores is out but another location has it, we make the drive to get it from the other location then deliver to the job site. Even if we get something in the next day or a few days later, we deliver to the job site. For free. But, we have to get daily deliveries because we go through alot of paint. And each of those deliveries does not contain all of the different BM paints, just what we were low on. And quite often, we sell through the new delivery the next day. Our customers appreciate the efforts we go to to get them their product as quickly as we can. They all know the other store is just down the street, but they also know its not worth it.


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## Sn0man (Sep 15, 2017)

SweetLu said:


> So I’ve been pretty loyal to SW, because of the price and my Rep is a great guy. But I’ve been having too many problems, especially with Opulence (Cashmere). It bubbles over patches if it’s humid out and it literally can ruin an entire day of painting.


Using a primer first will solve all your problems.


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