# Cabinet Primer Advice



## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

I have a occupied 50 door drawer/drawer OAK kitchen I'm working on. I just finished the boxes with BIN, SmartPrime and Advance. Applied with foam roller/Syntox brush. Looks great.
I'm working on the doors now in my shop and as I'm sanding these I am beginning to dread the thought of rolling and brushing all this real estate with BIN. Some of the doors are large pantry doors. I considered spraying BIN but I only have a Titan 440 sprayer. I am committed to the Advance top coats for this project. As such I'm looking for a good blocking w/b primer that sands well so I can spray. Apparently SmartPrime doesn't stain block well but it does sand well. Local BM doesn't have Fresh Start. I guess it's getting reformulated.
BM, SW, PPG and Renner are all available to me. Your advice is much appreciated.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Knobbe said:


> I have a occupied 50 door drawer/drawer OAK kitchen I'm working on. I just finished the boxes with BIN, SmartPrime and Advance. Applied with foam roller/Syntox brush. Looks great.
> I'm working on the doors now in my shop and as I'm sanding these I am beginning to dread the thought of rolling and brushing all this real estate with BIN. Some of the doors are large pantry doors. I considered spraying BIN but I only have a Titan 440 sprayer. I am committed to the Advance top coats for this project. As such I'm looking for a good blocking w/b primer that sands well so I can spray. Apparently SmartPrime doesn't stain block well but it does sand well. Local BM doesn't have Fresh Start. I guess it's getting reformulated.
> BM, SW, PPG and Renner are all available to me. Your advice is much appreciated.


Fresh start isn't being reformulated as far I know... is getting a label refresh along most of the other product lines. I just got some new ones in.

IMO I would check out whatever Renner has to offer as far as their 2K primer. product lines 602 vs 643? Not real clear to me which to use where. Maybe give them a call.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Some of the members on here swear by 2 coats of the smart prime for stain blocking and grain filling. Maybe now is a time to invest in a 2nd sprayer..


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Some of the members on here swear by 2 coats of the smart prime for stain blocking and grain filling. Maybe now is a time to invest in a 2nd sprayer..


I did notice that. I've never used Smart prime without BIN first on oak cabs. May be worth a try. I'm going to call the local Renner guy tomorrow and see what they have to say but it might be a bit pricey for this one.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Knobbe said:


> I did notice that. I've never used Smart prime without BIN first on oak cabs. May be worth a try. I'm going to call the local Renner guy tomorrow and see what they have to say but it might be a bit pricey for this one.


Or invest in an hvlp system for spraying stuff like BIN etc. I like having a dedicated sprayer for my topcoats only.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Why cant you spray BIN?

Run a 1-1 solution of Ammonia-water through your rig first,then get it into the BIN,spray it,then more Ammonia - Water to clean it out.

Take out the Manifold filter first,


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Hey Knobbe

Just for shits and giggles how many man hours did it take you to cut n roll the cabinet frames in that kitchen?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Knobbe said:


> I did notice that. I've never used Smart prime without BIN first on oak cabs. May be worth a try. I'm going to call the local Renner guy tomorrow and see what they have to say but it might be a bit pricey for this one.


I've refinished around 20 or so kitchens with smart prime as the only primer and had great luck with tannin blocking. It even blocked them on some exterior cedar shakes on a project we had where the factory primer hadn't sealed them in.


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

propainterJ said:


> Hey Knobbe
> 
> Just for shits and giggles how many man hours did it take you to cut n roll the cabinet frames in that kitchen?


26 hours for BIN, 2 coats SmartPrime 2 coats Advance. Includes Island and toe kick and lots of shoe mould caulking. Not including set up, door removal, degrease. 


propainterJ said:


> Why cant you spray BIN?
> 
> Run a 1-1 solution of Ammonia-water through your rig first,then get it into the BIN,spray it,then more Ammonia - Water to clean it out.
> 
> Take out the Manifold filter first,


I am tempted to do that but it seems others have had difficulty properly cleaning and if running lots of DN or Ammonia through my machine creates a problem, I'm screwed. So I'm a bit nervous about it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Oak isnt bad about staining. I wouldnt worry too much about it. Just look it over and maybe rattle can anything if you see it.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Oak isnt bad about staining. I wouldnt worry too much about it. Just look it over and maybe rattle can anything if you see it.


Depends on the oak..red oak experiences minimal tannin pull while tannins in white oak can pull and stain like mad..


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We get bleed all the time on oak cabinets with waterborne. Anything but rare in our experience.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Yeah I've had a lot of bleed on oak as well


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've had older oak doors bleed with Bin, even after multiple spot primes. I've found that when it happens it'll only stop if you switch to an oil to spot prime the bleeding areas. I definitely wouldn't trust smart prime on it, any other type of wood smart prime is probably good enough but oak can be a different beast.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've had older oak doors bleed with Bin, even after multiple spot primes. I've found that when it happens it'll only stop if you switch to an oil to spot prime the bleeding areas. I definitely wouldn't trust smart prime on it, any other type of wood smart prime is probably good enough but oak can be a different beast.


A lot of the times it's not even the tannins, but the grease that is wedged down in the grain that squeezes out.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I've had older oak doors bleed with Bin, even after multiple spot primes. I've found that when it happens it'll only stop if you switch to an oil to spot prime the bleeding areas. I definitely wouldn't trust smart prime on it, any other type of wood smart prime is probably good enough but oak can be a different beast.


Actually the reason I started using smart prime was because I was using aqua lock (another water based primer) and was having a heck of a time with tannins. I switched to smart prime and it blocked the stains. Since then I've probably done 10-12 oak jobs, mostly white top coats. Lots of tannin stains showing through the smart prime but sealed in, and no bleed through on top coat. It's been a real nice product for me, I don't have a shop so being able to use all water-based products on site is great.


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

finishesbykevyn said:


> A lot of the times it's not even the tannins, but the grease that is wedged down in the grain that squeezes out.


And these doors were loaded with grease. When you start with straight edge razors to scrape layers off you know your in for a fun time.


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## Mrk (Sep 18, 2017)

2K water based coatings can be hit or miss at stopping bleeding, depends on the user allowing first coat to dry properly. But use caution, most ppl I see using 2k coatings are not taking proper precautions. 3M does not recommend cartridge filters when using anything with hardeners or cross linkers. Invest in an air feed system! And cover every inch of your body. Once an individual reaches saturation, they will struggle to spray anything 2k again. I know companies state their ISOs are encapsulated, but have a hard time believing they are safe with cartridge respirators. 3M published an article discussing dangers of ISOs, Google search it.

As for air feed systems, I use a system made by Allegro, works great and will never go back to cartridge respirators again.

BIN has always worked for me. I tired 2k water based primers, and would still get bleed here and there. Now I use BIN then Hydro-Sand by Lorchem and top coat with Renner 1245, Renner 851 or Lorchem Aqua LS (have local vendor for Lorchem products).


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I guess Ive gotten lucky...

Of course, its not very often when Ive had to paint raw oak either, so maybe thats why...


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Actually the reason I started using smart prime was because I was using aqua lock (another water based primer) and was having a heck of a time with tannins. I switched to smart prime and it blocked the stains. Since then I've probably done 10-12 oak jobs, mostly white top coats. Lots of tannin stains showing through the smart prime but sealed in, and no bleed through on top coat. It's been a real nice product for me, I don't have a shop so being able to use all water-based products on site is great.


I used it on one job. It was cherry and I didn't have any bleeding. I liked it but the Breakthrough I top coated it with didn't play well with the smart prime so I had to sand them all then ended up repriming it all with Bin. Now that I've made the switch from Breakthrough to Emerald Urethane I should give smart prime another shot.


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## Macsimus (Jun 24, 2008)

What about Zinnser Coverstain? I use that on cabinets all the time. It has excellent adhesion and stain blocking properties. I spray the doors with a titan 440 that i also use for acrylics. You just have to flush with mineral spirits before and after the Coverstain. Not a big deal. Don't worry about contamination if you run a couple of gallons of water through it before you put it into the Advance. And if you spray it you can lay it on thick enough where one coat is sufficient. You can always easily spray another coat if you feel it's necessary. I will then "sand" with either a green or red scotch pad. I used to sand the primer with 320 but I noticed it really doesn't make the finish any better and just creates a shi!load of fine dust.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I used it on one job. It was cherry and I didn't have any bleeding. I liked it but the Breakthrough I top coated it with didn't play well with the smart prime so I had to sand them all then ended up repriming it all with Bin. Now that I've made the switch from Breakthrough to Emerald Urethane I should give smart prime another shot.


What happened with the Breakthrough? 
I've only used Breakthrough on two jobs. It's a very tough finish but it was a bit too much of a learning curve to spray at least for me. 

We usually use scuff-X but we just finished a remodel last week with emerald urethane semi gloss (per GC request) over smart prime and everything played together well. 

Are you using satin or semi on cabs? I haven't used the satin in a few years, but I heard they may have upped the sheen a little bit. Last time I used it was looked more like a matte.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Macsimus said:


> What about Zinnser Coverstain? I use that on cabinets all the time. It has excellent adhesion and stain blocking properties. I spray the doors with a titan 440 that i also use for acrylics. You just have to flush with mineral spirits before and after the Coverstain. Not a big deal. Don't worry about contamination if you run a couple of gallons of water through it before you put it into the Advance. And if you spray it you can lay it on thick enough where one coat is sufficient. You can always easily spray another coat if you feel it's necessary. I will then "sand" with either a green or red scotch pad. I used to sand the primer with 320 but I noticed it really doesn't make the finish any better and just creates a shi!load of fine dust.


Who the heck wants to wash out an airless with mineral spirits everytime they use it? What do you do with all your waste is the question? Wouldn't be so bad if that sprayer was dedicated to oils, but switching back and forth to waterbornes. No thanks.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

What is the advantage of BIN over using Sealcoat? I get good adhesion with Sealcoat. The pigment seems optional if you are putting down two coats of finish.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> What is the advantage of BIN over using Sealcoat? I get good adhesion with Sealcoat. The pigment seems optional if you are putting down two coats of finish.


sealcoat is a one pound cut of shellac, bin is a 3lbs cut. More shellac.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> sealcoat is a one pound cut of shellac, bin is a 3lbs cut. More shellac.


OK. Same price (about $45.00 per gallon) but better sealing. Now that makes sense to me.


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## Macsimus (Jun 24, 2008)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Who the heck wants to wash out an airless with mineral spirits everytime they use it? What do you do with all your waste is the question? Wouldn't be so bad if that sprayer was dedicated to oils, but switching back and forth to waterbornes. No thanks.


Thanks for reminding me why not to comment. I should have noticed you already chimed in so the issue was settled.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Macsimus said:


> Thanks for reminding me why not to comment. I should have noticed you already chimed in so the issue was settled.


 More just just trying to save someone the pain of switching from oil to water. Just not a pleasant experience imo.🤷


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I have a dedicated pump just for solvents, much easier that way.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

fromthenorthwest said:


> What happened with the Breakthrough?
> I've only used Breakthrough on two jobs. It's a very tough finish but it was a bit too much of a learning curve to spray at least for me.
> 
> We usually use scuff-X but we just finished a remodel last week with emerald urethane semi gloss (per GC request) over smart prime and everything played together well.
> ...


That's nice to know that the Urethane works well over the smart prime, I may have to revisit it.

The Breakthrough dried with a weird kind of rough texture. Luckily it sands like oil after a couple hours so I sanded it smooth and thought I'd be good for the second coat. The second coat dried the same so I had to sand again and start over with Bin. That was the first and last time I used smartprime.

Spraying Breakthrough definitely has a learning curve, I've used so much over the years I have it down to a science now. The key is a 308 tip and just a little bit of water. Took me a long time to figure out, I've never been able to get it to spray right with any other tip size.

The Emerald satin is a lot nicer than what it used to be and I'd say that it's a true satin now after the reformulation. It's also a lot nicer to the touch now as well.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> That's nice to know that the Urethane works well over the smart prime, I may have to revisit it.
> 
> The Breakthrough dried with a weird kind of rough texture. Luckily it sands like oil after a couple hours so I sanded it smooth and thought I'd be good for the second coat. The second coat dried the same so I had to sand again and start over with Bin. That was the first and last time I used smartprime.
> 
> ...


Why did you switch products? I did finally spray some of the new V52? The Satin has a really nice sheen.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Why did you switch products? I did finally spray some of the new V52? The Satin has a really nice sheen.


A couple reasons, I don't particularly care for the store I get the Breakthrough from is one. The main reason is that I brush and roll the frames and I've never been completely happy with how it covers and how it lays out by hand. The Emerald covers way better and with rolling and tipping it off I can get a damn near sprayed looking finish.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Macsimus said:


> What about Zinnser Coverstain? I use that on cabinets all the time. It has excellent adhesion and stain blocking properties. I spray the doors with a titan 440 that i also use for acrylics. You just have to flush with mineral spirits before and after the Coverstain. Not a big deal. Don't worry about contamination if you run a couple of gallons of water through it before you put it into the Advance. And if you spray it you can lay it on thick enough where one coat is sufficient. You can always easily spray another coat if you feel it's necessary. I will then "sand" with either a green or red scotch pad. I used to sand the primer with 320 but I noticed it really doesn't make the finish any better and just creates a shi!load of fine dust.





Rbriggs82 said:


> That's nice to know that the Urethane works well over the smart prime, I may have to revisit it.
> 
> The Breakthrough dried with a weird kind of rough texture. Luckily it sands like oil after a couple hours so I sanded it smooth and thought I'd be good for the second coat. The second coat dried the same so I had to sand again and start over with Bin. That was the first and last time I used smartprime.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips, I'll keep that in mind if I ever try breakthrough again. I have had some weird top coat issues lately and I'm not sure if it's related to the smart prime or not. But being as how it's sort of a hybrid I'm not surprised that it could cause some problems.

I'll probably go with satin next time I use Emerald urethane


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> A couple reasons, I don't particularly care for the store I get the Breakthrough from is one. The main reason is that I brush and roll the frames and I've never been completely happy with how it covers and how it lays out by hand. The Emerald covers way better and with rolling and tipping it off I can get a damn near sprayed looking finish.


 Yep. Same reason I still use Advance. It flows out like a dream when brushing and rolling boxes. Although coverage is not the best in brighter whites. And yes, I tried rolling the Breakthrough and it leaves a pretty heavy stipple in comparison. I would definitely use it on a full spray job though where recoat times would be an issue. I think the whole fisheye thing is mostly with the Urethane paints. They are so fussy I find. You have to do a darn good job of tacking off your surface etc.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Yep. Same reason I still use Advance. It flows out like a dream when brushing and rolling boxes. Although coverage is not the best in brighter whites. And yes, I tried rolling the Breakthrough and it leaves a pretty heavy stipple in comparison. I would definitely use it on a full spray job though where recoat times would be an issue. I think the whole fisheye thing is mostly with the Urethane paints. They are so fussy I find. You have to do a darn good job of tacking off your surface etc.


I've only ever had a problem with fisheyes when I used Command over BIN. You warned me ahead of time and I should've listened. If I were spraying everything Breakthrough would be a no brainer, at least the newer v52 is easier to work with and lays out nicer by hand than the v50 but it still doesn't beat Emerald or advance.


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