# Some pro help for a semi pro, please.



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Old customer (as far as work at his home) bought a student rental house in the 'historic' district, and is doing major remodel update. The city will not let him replace the windows with new 'vinyl'. Since it is in the 'historic' district, he either has to keep existing, or buy 'new' wood frame windows of the 'type' of wood they specify.

This equates to big bucks, so he has decided to redo the existing. It is two story with probably 20 windows. These windows are in such rough shape that I have labored to try and come up with a fixed price per window to make them functional and presentable.

So, as much as I hate doing it, I have gone soft and safe, and presented him a 'time and material' proposal.

My question for the pros: what you see in these three photos is typical. To expedite the removal of the cracked and peeling paint from all wood, is there anything new, tool wise, that you would recommend?

I know it's hourly, but I still want to give him as much value as I can. Plus he has a August 1 move in deadline.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

looks like he needs new windows.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Have you been reading all the posts on lead paint?:whistling2:


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

"They look in good shape to me".... scrape, prime, caulk, paint.

I don't even see any glazing that needs done ?

Stop your whining..get to work. Are you scared ? Be honest; "we are here to help the cherry's survive, and run us out of business"


Glad to help.

LoVe WoOdY


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

doctors11 said:


> Have you been reading all the posts on lead paint?:whistling2:


.... It don't matter, they have 5 men working in 50 states.....wtf

Take it home, and put it on your Cherrios....use skim milk (don't wanna get fat)


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

is that a dead wasp on the windowsill on the last pic? If it is, its totally appropriate.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

kerk said:


> To expedite the removal of the cracked and peeling paint from all wood, is there anything new, tool wise, that you would recommend?


A bulldozer.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Have you read up on the new RRP laws?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Besides the RRP issue, I would think it would be cheaper to replace the windows, with the Energy Star rebates. I am sure the sash cords, wieghts etc are all shot as well.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

maybe this is a joke?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> maybe this is a joke?


If it _is _indeed a historical district, they have strict guidelines as to the type of work you can do on your home. Vinyl windows would most certainly be out.

About 15 years ago we were working for a customer that had done a major restoration to there victorian home in a historical district. Part of the restoration was the replacement of all windows. After they were installed someone pointed out that they were actually prairie style. Well they almost had to rip them out. After a lot pleading and butt kissing they were allowed to keep them. Could have been a costly mistake!


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Burn it now!


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you can buy kits from this guy to refinish windows.
www.betterthaneverwindows.com If you plan on making them lead safe you need to install vinyl or metal track liners to stop the sashes from rubbing on them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paint stripper. A high ph caustic type will break down the oils in the alkyd. Minimal dust. T&M may be the only way to manage this type of work. Hopefuly, they're willing to pay the price to preserve history.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

No, I meant burn it down.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> No, I meant burn it down.


The house!?:blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> If it _is _indeed a historical district, they have strict guidelines as to the type of work you can do on your home. Vinyl windows would most certainly be out.
> 
> About 15 years ago we were working for a customer that had done a major restoration to there victorian home in a historical district. Part of the restoration was the replacement of all windows. After they were installed someone pointed out that they were actually prairie style. Well they almost had to rip them out. After a lot pleading and butt kissing they were allowed to keep them. Could have been a costly mistake!


Yeah that is how historical districts are. They have a committee that you have to schmooze over and wait forever for them to meet and decide.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Seriously, those windows look salvageable. Don't they?

Call in the Brits! They deal with this stuff all the time.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Seriously, those windows look salvageable. Don't they?


I'd hit that.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

All that restoration and moving day is on August 1st? And you are just coming out with products to use? Shouldn't that be before you kinda quoted? Not a chance for August 1st, specially by the hour, don't you know you have to stretch it as much as you can to make good profit for doing that grossness? Just saying :blink:


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

CApainter said:


> The house!?:blink:


I be kidding, but you all can have that job if he is for real.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Check out this site.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> No, I meant burn it down.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

AztecPainting said:


> All that restoration and moving day is on August 1st? And you are just coming out with products to use? Shouldn't that be before you kinda quoted? Not a chance for August 1st, specially by the hour, don't you know you have to stretch it as much as you can to make good profit for doing that grossness? Just saying :blink:


"Just coming out"? 

I was just presented the opportunity 5 days ago.

"Products to use"?

If I recall, I ask for suggestions on 'tools'.

"Not a chance by August 1st"?

I'm impressed that just by the info in my original post, you are skilled enough to draw that conclusion.

"Stretch it out"?

I'm curious, how does 'stretching out' a T&M equate to 'profitable'? 'Profitable' comes from a good 'firm' bid, and then running the job to 'insure' a good profit.......and a good finished product.

All that 'stretching out' of a T&M does is screw your customer, and probably cost you their repeat business and any referrals they might provide. Thus causing you to have to 'stretch out' all your T&M jobs because you lack work.

Maybe it works for you.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

RCP said:


> Besides the RRP issue, I would think it would be cheaper to replace the windows, with the Energy Star rebates. I am sure the sash cords, wieghts etc are all shot as well.


Surprisingly, just about all of the windows function fine (open, close, and stay up).

This is not the owners first rodeo, he has 3 or 4 other student rental houses in town. He checked on the replacements specified by the city. $600 to $900 per window.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> Have you read up on the new RRP laws?


No I haven't, but I will. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

doctors11 said:


> Have you been reading all the posts on lead paint?:whistling2:


Not all........but lead paint? I suppose it's a remote possibility, but I my first behind the paint counter job was with SW in 1978, and even then, lead paint (except for strict industrial applications) was banned.

My math says that was 32 years ago. If those window frames have managed to keep any paint from 30 years ago, in Florida heat and humidity...........I think I'll eat it.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

kerk said:


> Not all........but lead paint? I suppose it's a remote possibility, but I my first behind the paint counter job was with SW in 1978, and even then, lead paint (except for strict industrial applications) was banned.
> 
> My math says that was 32 years ago. If those window frames have managed to keep any paint from 30 years ago, in Florida heat and humidity...........I think I'll eat it.


You might want to read about the RRP Rule before you do your bid. To do the work on a pre 1978 house, unless it has been certified Lead Free, you must be a Certified Renovator to touch it. 
http://www.epa.gov/lead/


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Kerk,

Aztec's response was not that unreasonable. I believe he made some good points about the pressures put on contractors to balance expediency and profitability, while complying with the new RRP regulations. I didn't get the sense he was being too critical of you personally.

Your situation does emphasize the need for contractors to be even more prepared then ever before when accepting these types of jobs.

The fines alone should motivate anyone in the business to become compliant, especially when you've got the Rat Patrol out there ready to turn you in.

J/K HF


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Hi Kerk,

My name is Edgar and I do Historical Renovations on a daily basis. By looking at your pictures, all I can say, the best way there was to remove the paint from them was by using a heat gun, which is illegal now with the RRP rules. With this method you could've had 2 windows per day stripped down to bare wood and ready for primer in a day. Now, on the first picture you can see glazing falling apart, a broken glass and I'm pretty sure that's lead paint. I wouldn't mess with that if I were you. I'm thinking $ 1,800 per window with my methods and my paints. The second option that I would recommend, is to locate a Marvin widows retailer. They have windows made of wood, low energy glass and weather stripping. They are also approved by the Histerical Board. I don't know how your market is, but here, it would cost you perhaps $ 2,800 per window, which would included the new window, installation and paint (both labor and materials). You would still have to take the RRP class ($500) to do this project. The RRP law applies to all removal and disposal of old windows. There is also a $32,500 fine per day if you are caught working without following the RRP law. My best advise would be to get new windows because restoring them using the heat gun is illegal now. Also, I would recommend you taking your RRP class. If you are going to do something, do it right. I hope this helps.


Edgar


(P.S) Remember to use serrated Ipe stir sticks :thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Edgar,

Have you used a chemical paint stripper, and how did it work? These may be used more inlight of the new RRP regulations.

Thanks


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Just to clarify, heat guns are allowed, as long as they are under 1100 degrees.

"(3) Prohibited and restricted practices. The work practices listed below shall be prohibited or restricted during a renovation as follows:

(i) Open-flame burning or torching of lead-based paint is prohibited.

(ii) The use of machines that remove lead-based paint through high speed operation such as sanding, grinding, power planing, needle gun, abrasive blasting, or sandblasting, is prohibited unless such machines are used with HEPA exhaust control.

(iii) Operating a heat gun on lead-based paint is permitted only at temperatures below 1100 degrees Fahrenheit."

Source


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Edgar,
> 
> Have you used a chemical paint stripper, and how did it work? These may be used more inlight of the new RRP regulations.
> 
> Thanks



Yes, like 3 years ago, I tried to use 5 different paint strippers on a door that had lead paint. They did not work like I anticipated them to. The door had 7 layers of paint and I had to apply the stripper about 10 times to be able to remove it completely. It takes up double the time than using a heat gun and the advantages of using a heat gun before were that you saved on chemicals. By using chemicals, it's difficult to protect the glass from damage. Removing lead paint with paint strippers is usually more difficult than removing regular paint with the same strippers. 

I really haven't tried any new products... usually replacing them is the best way to go. Now, windows come with better options with them... they include weather stripping and energy glass. Here, there is a place where you can take doors and trim (with no glass) and they soak them in a huge container with paint stripper, pressure wash very lightly and they leave them to bare wood. All is left on them to work on after that, is the sanding. The downside on this is that the process may take up to 7 days for them to dry completely before you commence the prep work.



Edgar


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

:thumbup: thanks RCP :thumbup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

http://www.thehardwarecity.com/products/00401-1g-Heavybody-Remover/3010873
this takes everything off. But use a good respirator and other skin/eye protection.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> http://www.thehardwarecity.com/products/00401-1g-Heavybody-Remover/3010873
> this takes everything off. But use a good respirator and other skin/eye protection.



Have you tried that on a 1880 historic home ?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Have you tried that on a 1880 historic home ?


no but, I have used it to take off industrial urethane

http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NR/r...8-43F0-BD10-E6DAB749EFBE/0/pittthaneultra.pdf

trust me, it will take off pretty much anything.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

If it is a HUD home or federally funded, there are other restrictions.
http://www.hud.gov/offices/lead/enforcement/lshr_rrp_changes.cfm


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The following link doesn't have much on the use of chemical stippers, but it has some good info on RRP. http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/steps.pdf


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

renta painter, It may not work, but if this don't, I'm not quite sure what would.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

its def not a wimpy latex only paint remover


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ok, one last, unneeded post to get to 800, thanks.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The more I read about the hazards of chemical strippers, the more I like the heat gun approach, or a low RPM HEPA vacuum supported grinder.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I have always use this one


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pneumatic grinders offer the ability to use smaller tools, and have better control of the speed. However, you have to drag a compressor and hose with you.

I have used this equipment on a lead job, and it did reduce the amount of fugitive dust significantly. Very pricy for the "Peanut" grinder with vacuum attachment.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Nice RAP.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I have no experience with pneumatic grinders. I use my orbital sander attach to my vacuum with an HEPA filter like this


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

kerk said:


> "Just coming out"?
> 
> I was just presented the opportunity 5 days ago.
> 
> ...


1.- You are right... I am not skilled (I just guess all the time)
2.- Our company does not work by the hour so I can't screw my customers (You have a lack of humor buddie :no 
3.- Until now I do have a lack of work starting February 2011. 
4.- For what I've read on PT you guys in the States require RRP certification or something like that and you don't even know about it. (That is lack of knowledge)
5.- With all you said about historic restoration on this job and without knowing the rules in your country I don't think you should be doing that job period. Don't take me wrong and get pissed of me, I didn't make the rules.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

AztecPainting said:


> 1.- You are right... I am not skilled (I just guess all the time)
> 2.- Our company does not work by the hour so I can't screw my customers (You have a lack of humor buddie :no
> 3.- Until now I do have a lack of work starting February 2011.
> 4.- For what I've read on PT you guys in the States require RRP certification or something like that and you don't even know about it. (That is lack of knowledge)
> 5.- With all you said about historic restoration on this job and without knowing the rules in your country I don't think you should be doing that job period. Don't take me wrong and get pissed of me, I didn't make the rules.


OUCH!!!!!:whistling2:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

AztecPainting said:


> 1.- You are right... I am not skilled (I just guess all the time)
> 2.- Our company does not work by the hour so I can't screw my customers (You have a lack of humor buddie :no
> 3.- Until now I do have a lack of work starting February 2011.
> 4.- For what I've read on PT you guys in the States require RRP certification or something like that and you don't even know about it. (That is lack of knowledge)
> ...


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


>


I thought that number 6 was pretty funny... :yes: Thanks for adding it on...


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

AztecPainting said:


> 1.- You are right... I am not skilled (I just guess all the time)
> 2.- Our company does not work by the hour so I can't screw my customers (You have a lack of humor buddie :no
> 3.- Until now I do have a lack of work starting February 2011.
> 4.- For what I've read on PT you guys in the States require RRP certification or something like that and you don't even know about it. (That is lack of knowledge)
> 5.- With all you said about historic restoration on this job and without knowing the rules in your country I don't think you should be doing that job period. Don't take me wrong and get pissed of me, I didn't make the rules.


Here, we say 'lack a 'sense' of humor'. You know, like when you stick your foot out to trip someone, and then tell them they 'lack' a sense of humor because they didn't laugh after they fell.

'Lack of humor' means you are not funny. 

I think my thread title was self explanatory as far as my need of information. It definitely lacked the arrogance displayed in your post.

Usually I find that such posts are often similar to statements made by schoolyard bullies..........they are used to try and prop up one's lacking self esteem. Maybe that doesn't apply in your case, but just an observation.

And for your last post........it kind of reminds me of a song that was a country hit not long ago: 'Be all you can be online'.

Now, if you don't find that funny..........you lack a 'sense' of humor.

As for the helpful posts, I thank you all for your input. It looks to me like I will let this one pass, and send along the info provided here, to the owner.


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Edgar,
> 
> Have you used a chemical paint stripper, and how did it work? These may be used more inlight of the new RRP regulations.
> 
> Thanks


Some states have there own delegation on rrp and the rules could vary. In RI it reads 
Chemical Removal - Paint strippers are allowed as long as the stripper is non flammable and contains no methylene chloride 

So check and see how it applies to you along with sanding and heat guns there could be some restrictions on paint strippers


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

clammer said:


> Some states have there own delegation on rrp and the rules could vary. In RI it reads
> Chemical Removal - Paint strippers are allowed as long as the stripper is non flammable and contains no methylene chloride
> 
> So check and see how it applies to you along with sanding and heat guns there could be some restrictions on paint strippers


From what I read about strippers, they seem to be more hazardous then then lead paint!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

CApainter said:


> From what I read about strippers, they seem to be more hazardous then then lead paint!



Agreed


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

CApainter said:


> From what I read about strippers, they seem to be more hazardous then then lead paint!


 
I agree working with lead paint can put money in your pocket but a stripper will always take your dollars and that's hazardous


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

CApainter said:


> From what I read about strippers, they seem to be more hazardous then then lead paint!


Only if they're of the dancing variety. :jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CApainter said:


> From what I read about strippers, they seem to be more hazardous *then then *lead paint!


Two drinks and I develop a stutter:blink:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Rcon said:


> Only if they're of the dancing variety. :jester:


They've been known to reduce the IQ's of adult males.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

i gotta say after using some hardcore stripper, my bones sorta itch


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> i gotta say after using some hardcore stripper, my bones sorta itch


Vicadin, and Viagra will cure that


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