# Product review-Bin Advanced synthetic shellac



## Jmayspaint

I'm giving this stuff a go on a set of cabinets and thought I would share my impressions. 

This set of doors had a dark stain and a polyurethane finish. I applied Bin Advanced after cleaning with DN alcohol and scuff sanding with 80 grit on an orbital. 

I will rate my impressions on a 1-10 comparison scale to regular Bin shellac primer with a "10" being equal to the performance of regular Bin. Lower numbers will represent the degree to which I felt the Advanced fell short of the regular Bin. 

Spray ability - 6
I started spraying with a new 211 spray tip. The material (un thinned) didn't seem to be breaking up like I wanted it to and there was a lot of overspray. Large drops of overspray it seemed. I switched to a 310FF tip and that improved the pattern and gave me a nice smooth film. It was nice to not have to worry about explosion hazard or solvent fumes, but overall it didn't spray as easily as regular Bin. 

Bonding - 10
Bin Advance dried very quickly and passed a scratch test over polyurethane after 4 hours. 

Stain Blocking - 9
The doors I primed had a very dark existing stain and a thin, worn out polyurethane finish. I expected bleeding to be a problem and some staining did show through the primer film. As of now however it appears that the stains were locked in the primer film (after overnight dry). 
















I considered applying another coat of primer to ensure these stains wouldn't come through, but in the spirit of experimentation I let it be. None of the stains came through the top coat (Advance satin). 

Sand ability - 4
Even after an overnight dry the Advanced did not dry sand well at all. Here's a side by side showing the drastic difference in sanding qualities. The regular Bin powders up nicely, while the Advanced rolled up and clogged the sandpaper. 









It did however wet sand very nicely. I was able to slick it down well with a little water and some 400 grit. 

Leveling qualities - 7
A side by side comparison of a brushed sample showed that the Advanced did not level out quite as well as the regular. Regular Bin will flow out very smoothly if applied thickly and quickly enough with a brush, the brush strokes almost disappear. The Advanced flowed out OK but I could see and feel the brush strokes more in it than I could in the regular Bin. 

Sheen holdout - 10
Bin Advanced seemed to have slightly better sheen hold out in a side by side comparison top coated with Advance satin.


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## Jmayspaint

Overall, I am very pleased this product. The benefits of having the performance characteristics of shellac primer in a water based formula are numerous and in one respect at least, the synthetic formula is superior. And that is flexibility. 

The dries film of Bin Advanced is quite flexible. This is a piece of it I peeled off of the Gorilla tape on top of my saw horses









It's very pliable and strong. Very different than the brittle, flaky film of traditional shellac primers.


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## PRC

Thanks for the comparison! I wonder how it will do on holding out stains long term.


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## Jmayspaint

PRC said:


> Thanks for the comparison! I wonder how it will do on holding out stains long term.



I will get to see how it does for about 10 days while the job is completed. Hopefully that will be enough time to see if anything is going to come through. If they do bleed after that, I'm sure I'll hear about it


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## Damon T

Thanks for the great review. The sanding issue is what kept me from using on trim a second time. Maybe I'll rethink that with the wet sand option. I hope Zinsser improves that aspect soon. Then it will truly be the bomb!


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## JoeAntilla

Awesome review! I can't wait to try it myself. I wish I would have read this 1 hour ago. I just sprayed out a bunch of oil primer on old cabinets.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Great review! Very helpful. If having to wet-sand is the biggest fault, I'd be very pleased.


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## driftweed

How was the odor, & would you recommend this vs shellac on nicotine/fire damage?


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## Brian C

great stuff. Thank you for posting this helpful topic.


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## DeanV

Have 6 gallons to use somewhere. Ordered it for a job that cancelled. Might try spot priming knots on exteriors with it for one job. 

I am really hoping to find a product that can be brushed, sprayed, etc and do what BIN does in waterbase. I have seen other products that seem to lock the bleed through into the primer film as well, but those are spray only. Hopefully we are getting closer and closer to the perfect WB primer.


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## Jmayspaint

driftweed said:


> How was the odor, & would you recommend this vs shellac on nicotine/fire damage?



Odor is comparable to other WB primers, perhaps a little milder. My shop is well vented, but when I took off my respirator between sets I didn't notice any odor. Smelling it in the can it reminds me of 123, just not as potent. 

I couldn't say from experience if it would work as well as regular Bin for smoke/nicotine and I can't find anything that confirms that the Advanced forms a total vapor barrier. Going by what I have seen and the specs, it should work. I will certainly try it next time that comes up for me. 

The literature would lead you to believe it seals completely like the regular Bin does, including a warning about using it for whole surface applications in humid areas, and being limited to spot priming on exteriors. Forming a vapor barrier would explain these limitations. 

Here's another little bleed test I did with Sharpie, stain, pen, and highlighting marker. The Advanced blocked everything except the highlighting marker with an overnight dry and top coated with ceiling paint.


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## DeanV

Only thing I question is using polyurethane for adhesion. Usually, I think of oil poly as a fairly soft coating that a lot of stuff can bite into. Gloss oil is my testing substrate of choice for adhesion, preferable an older piece of oil enamel.

Note to self: I do not have any old high gloss oil samples left for adhesion testing, make more.


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## driftweed

I have a nicotine unit coming up middle of the month. But I made my monthly paint order last week. I may sneak a gallon in anyway in a bathroom to try it out.


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## TJ Paint

Experiment for me.


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## driftweed

Sure thing. Got parameters to check for adhesion, color retention, etc...preferred cure time overnight vs recommended re coat time... 

I'll take 1080p pics with the go pro under 2500 lumens led light. 

Could be an interesting project. Won't be until later in may though.


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## PACman

Jmayspaint said:


> Odor is comparable to other WB primers, perhaps a little milder. My shop is well vented, but when I took off my respirator between sets I didn't notice any odor. Smelling it in the can it reminds me of 123, just not as potent.
> 
> I couldn't say from experience if it would work as well as regular Bin for smoke/nicotine and I can't find anything that confirms that the Advanced forms a total vapor barrier. Going by what I have seen and the specs, it should work. I will certainly try it next time that comes up for me.
> 
> The literature would lead you to believe it seals completely like the regular Bin does, including a warning about using it for whole surface applications in humid areas, and being limited to spot priming on exteriors. Forming a vapor barrier would explain these limitations.
> 
> Here's another little bleed test I did with Sharpie, stain, pen, and highlighting marker. The Advanced blocked everything except the highlighting marker with an overnight dry and top coated with ceiling paint.


 I would like to see a test on coffee stains. In my independent hillbilly testing lab I haven't yet found a water based stain killer that will work. Of course it is at the top of extreme stains, but it is a good test of how well a sealer works with extreme stains. Another good test I use is ink blotter ink. Brutal. There actually is a laboratory standard testing ink that is used for laboratory comparisons and it is basically a standardized india ink. I may buy a quart of this to test, as there is an increasing demand for a good w/r stain sealer now that everyone is saying their paints are stain sealers too. They will cover coffee stains if you use 6-7 coats with an overnight dry each coat!


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## Criard

For the record, there are 2 different BIN Advanced products.

Both are labeled "BIN Advanced: Synthetic Shellac" but one is white and labeled as a "primer" for stain blocking and some odor control, the other is clear and is labeled as a "sealer" specifically for odors.
















Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try either out, nor have we sold any to hear anything back from customers.


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## DrakeB

I've been waffling on whether or not to bring in the BIN Advanced. On the one hand, huzzah for stuff going waterborne, on the other hand... always hard to believe the performance will be the same at first. Really appreciate the review!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like waterborne products are, across the board, vastly inferior when it comes to sanding compared to oil based products. At the very least it's something I've been told frequently about the Ben Moore products.


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## Jmayspaint

Woodford said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like waterborne products are, across the board, vastly inferior when it comes to sanding compared to oil based products. At the very least it's something I've been told frequently about the Ben Moore products.



Oh yes, that's for sure. No WB primers can compete with the ease of sanding of an oil primer. That powdering up you can get from oil is sweet.... Then again, you have to deal with the powder and the mess that it makes and airborne dust. 

I've been going wet sand crazy lately. I got the idea a while back from a guy on DIY that was trying to wet sand Cabinet Coat. He was doing the whole step up to 2000 grit deal trying to basically "polish" a WB coating. I don't take it that far, but I haven't tried a WB primer that wouldn't wet sand great. Forget dust, and rolling up, clogging paper, etc. it simply works. It works great with Advance too. Just a damp rag and some 400 grit will slick it down just as well or better than an oil will dry sand. 

I'm really trying to get away from solvent based coatings all together. With stricter VOC regulations likely coming to all states, we're going to have to do it sometime anyway. Might as well figure it out now and not be left befuddled when the day comes that Coverstain and its cronies are pulled from the shelves. 

Besides, I feel that I owe it to my customers and myself to limit solvent exposure to an absolute minimum. Yes, we all know Coverstain and Bin work every time but other things can work also that don't cause brain and nervous system damage. 

It's the 21's century. Oil based coatings in the residential market are going away and good riddance. I'm proud that my local BM started carrying the new Bin so soon after its release. There are going to be bumps in the road in the transition to WB. I want to find those bumps and smooth them out now. We will figure this out because we have to. And personally, I want to.


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## DeanV

Lenmar Durlaq wb primer sands as well as any oil. So does ML Campbell Agualente. 

Brushing grade primers, different story usually. BM branded primers though are typically some of the worst sanding acrylics, IMHO.


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## thinkpainting/nick

SW gave me a man made synthetic shellac, which was the most foul smelling crap I've ever used. Absolutely awful worst tan than that Kilz max crap...


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## straight_lines

Isn't this an oil based product? I know the SW shellac replacement is. It works great on a lot of surfaces, I use the rattle cans all the time now in place of white shellac. Saves $.


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## straight_lines

Nevermind I read the tds it is a latex product.


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## Boco

How does it do on knots? I would like to see it on some new plywood. I have some concerns about the tannin bleed through. I live in the northeast so most of the pine is not kiln dried and gets put on the shelves directly from the sawmill. Coverstain has been my go to but its a pita to spray ceilings then clean with spirits.


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## Damon T

Criard said:


> For the record, there are 2 different BIN Advanced products.
> 
> 
> 
> Both are labeled "BIN Advanced: Synthetic Shellac" but one is white and labeled as a "primer" for stain blocking and some odor control, the other is clear and is labeled as a "sealer" specifically for odors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to try either out, nor have we sold any to hear anything back from customers.



That's a really good point. I wasn't aware of the difference! Will have to ask my Zinnser rep about this. I just put a bid priming all walls and lids with the white bin advanced but seems like clear is better in a smokers house. Of course I used it (white) in a major car pee house and was great.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Has anyone used the new clear synthetic BIN? I need to make time to test both the white & clear.


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## DrakeB

Jmayspaint said:


> Oh yes, that's for sure. No WB primers can compete with the ease of sanding of an oil primer. That powdering up you can get from oil is sweet.... Then again, you have to deal with the powder and the mess that it makes and airborne dust.
> 
> I've been going wet sand crazy lately. I got the idea a while back from a guy on DIY that was trying to wet sand Cabinet Coat. He was doing the whole step up to 2000 grit deal trying to basically "polish" a WB coating. I don't take it that far, but I haven't tried a WB primer that wouldn't wet sand great. Forget dust, and rolling up, clogging paper, etc. it simply works. It works great with Advance too. Just a damp rag and some 400 grit will slick it down just as well or better than an oil will dry sand.
> 
> I'm really trying to get away from solvent based coatings all together. With stricter VOC regulations likely coming to all states, we're going to have to do it sometime anyway. Might as well figure it out now and not be left befuddled when the day comes that Coverstain and its cronies are pulled from the shelves.
> 
> Besides, I feel that I owe it to my customers and myself to limit solvent exposure to an absolute minimum. Yes, we all know Coverstain and Bin work every time but other things can work also that don't cause brain and nervous system damage.
> 
> It's the 21's century. Oil based coatings in the residential market are going away and good riddance. I'm proud that my local BM started carrying the new Bin so soon after its release. There are going to be bumps in the road in the transition to WB. I want to find those bumps and smooth them out now. We will figure this out because we have to. And personally, I want to.


Yeh, great post and I agree with all of it. I've been focused on moving out the last of our oil based products recently and finding quality waterborne replacements for them. I'll probably hold on to BIN until the bitter end, but that doesn't mean I won't bring in the Advanced as well.

The one thing that I'm not quite comfortable with in waterborne yet is the deck stains. I feel like we're "close" but just not quite there yet. Until such a point as they are "there," I'm gonna keep oil stains on hand, because product performance reflects back on me when I make recommendations. Here's hoping ten years from now it'll be a waterborne world (but not Water World!).


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## Jmayspaint

Thought I would update this thread. Still using this product pretty often. Most recently on some stained wood walls. 




























It did great, outstanding adhesion Over the finish, and no bleed. 

One negative to report. It appears this product has the "curdling" problem like Smart Prime had when it first came out. Partially used cans, even in ideal storage conditions, get .......chunky after a while. 

I've noticed it with a few different left over cans. The first couple times it wasn't a real big deal. The "curdles" mostly broke up with mixing and didn't seem to affect performance. Though the product seemed to have thickened over time. 

I opened an old can that had about a quart left in it the other day. The liquid had separated to the top, and the solids had done the curdling thing (don't know how else to describe it, it looks like cottage cheese).


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## Wildbill7145

Wonder if it was transferred to a smaller container with less air in it would have an effect on this?

That's one thing with regular BIN that's always annoyed me. Getting all of the solids off the bottom of the can to properly mix with everything else.


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## Wildbill7145

I'm officially excited (no life obv), I just checked the Rustoleum Canada website and they now appear to be carrying Advanced synthetic BIN here in Canada. They even claim to be selling it at a store in town here that I know won't have any. I could possibly harrass them into ordering me a gallon.

Edit: Of course I went to the local store's website and of course they indicate that they don't carry it. Shoot me.


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## PACman

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm officially excited (no life obv), I just checked the Rustoleum Canada website and they now appear to be carrying Advanced synthetic BIN here in Canada. They even claim to be selling it at a store in town here that I know won't have any. I could possibly harrass them into ordering me a gallon.
> 
> Edit: Of course I went to the local store's website and of course they indicate that they don't carry it. Shoot me.


First no sausage gravy and now this? How do you do it man?


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## The Cutting Edge

Thanks for the awesome review. I must have missed it the first time around.


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## Wildbill7145

PACman said:


> First no sausage gravy and now this? How do you do it man?


It ain't easy.


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## Tonyg

Jmayspaint said:


> One negative to report. It appears this product has the "curdling" problem like Smart Prime had when it first came out. Partially used cans, even in ideal storage conditions, get .......chunky after a while.
> 
> I've noticed it with a few different left over cans. The first couple times it wasn't a real big deal. The "curdles" mostly broke up with mixing and didn't seem to affect performance. Though the product seemed to have thickened over time.
> 
> I opened an old can that had about a quart left in it the other day. The liquid had separated to the top, and the solids had done the curdling thing (don't know how else to describe it, it looks like cottage cheese).


Tried the BIN Advance months ago (spring I think) and went through 3 cans, different batches, and all three were almost completely solid right from the shelf. Never heard back about the problem and haven't tried it again.


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## Jmayspaint

Tonyg said:


> Tried the BIN Advance months ago (spring I think) and went through 3 cans, different batches, and all three were almost completely solid right from the shelf. Never heard back about the problem and haven't tried it again.



Funny you mention that. I bought 6 gallons the other day. Needed two for a set of cabinets we started yesterday, and I was going to keep the other 4 in stock because the only place I can get it is out of my normal area. 

Got to the job and opened the first can. It was almost solid like your saying. I thought maybe they just forgot to shake it









Turned out that 4 of the gallons were like that, and two of them were fine. I took the 4 back to the store. They only had three more gallons in stock and one of them was also half solidified like that. Shaking had no effect. 
I had seen no such problems with previous batches. 

At least I got enough to do this set of cabs out of the deal. Must be some weird quirk. Hopefully Zinsser will work it out soon. Until they do, better check the stuff before leaving the store.


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## DeanV

I bought 8 gallons this spring. Opened up a full gallon today and a partial that has sat for a month or so. No solidification so far. 


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## PACman

Jmayspaint said:


> Funny you mention that. I bought 6 gallons the other day. Needed two for a set of cabinets we started yesterday, and I was going to keep the other 4 in stock because the only place I can get it is out of my normal area.
> 
> Got to the job and opened the first can. It was almost solid like your saying. I thought maybe they just forgot to shake it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turned out that 4 of the gallons were like that, and two of them were fine. I took the 4 back to the store. They only had three more gallons in stock and one of them was also half solidified like that. Shaking had no effect.
> I had seen no such problems with previous batches.
> 
> At least I got enough to do this set of cabs out of the deal. Must be some weird quirk. Hopefully Zinsser will work it out soon. Until they do, better check the stuff before leaving the store.


Of course this may not be of any help to you, but that looks to me like it has been stored for an extended time in an area that was too hot. I have had paint come in that way and my supplier had stored it in a storage container that had temperatures reaching almost 120deg. It causes the acrylic resins to prematurely bond.


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## Tonyg

This has got to be manufacture error. No reason that multiple batches from around the country over 6 months are having the same problem. If you can't store in a tractor trailer, truck, retail store, etc then this is product error. 

It would suck if I planned a future job using this product only to find out I have to use the regular BIN. I'll wait before I try it again to hear a manufacturer acknowledgement of the problem.


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## PACman

Thread bump! Instead of starting a new thread i feel this is relevant enough to this thread to bump it.

Two years ago I used a 1"x10"x8' pine board to make a shelf in my store. I primed it with 3 coats of bin synthetic shellac, with care towards applying it at the recommended wet film thickness. Each coat was allowed to dry over night. I finished by applying two coats of Wallcharm Semigloss In a straight white. (Dutch Standard's premium interior s/g) It looked quite fine ate the time for a warehouse shelf.

Fast forward to yesterday. I removed the shelf to raise the brackets 6" (i had mounted it to low to put notebooks on it.) and found that there was significant bleed through 3 coats of primer and two coats of topcoat. And not just at the knots but along a pretty considerable area of grain. Now I have read the data sheet for this product, and it pretty much says i need to do a coat of straight shellac based bin to stop the bleed? Why the hell did I waste my time then? And what pray tell is the advantage to using this product?


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## 804 Paint

That is a bummer, PAC. JMays and several others have made the excellent point that regular BIN is just too BRITTLE. In just about every other category, it's the bee's knees. But it does not stand up to getting dings because it has no flex and it seems to CHIP very easily. 

Why did you apply 3 coats of primer? Just curious. 

I have some upcoming projects I was going to use this stuff on. Now it's back to the drawing board. 


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## Jmayspaint

PACman said:


> Thread bump! Instead of starting a new thread i feel this is relevant enough to this thread to bump it.
> 
> 
> 
> Two years ago I used a 1"x10"x8' pine board to make a shelf in my store. I primed it with 3 coats of bin synthetic shellac, with care towards applying it at the recommended wet film thickness. Each coat was allowed to dry over night. I finished by applying two coats of Wallcharm Semigloss In a straight white. (Dutch Standard's premium interior s/g) It looked quite fine ate the time for a warehouse shelf.
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to yesterday. I removed the shelf to raise the brackets 6" (i had mounted it to low to put notebooks on it.) and found that there was significant bleed through 3 coats of primer and two coats of topcoat. And not just at the knots but along a pretty considerable area of grain. Now I have read the data sheet for this product, and it pretty much says i need to do a coat of straight shellac based bin to stop the bleed? Why the hell did I waste my time then? And what pray tell is the advantage to using this product?




Too bad you didn't do one side, or half the board with regular for a comparison. It's not like regular shellac is %100 effective all the time, especially on pine knots. 

I remember when I was young my dad doing a set of pine cabinets in a 100 year old house. He primed them with shellac and oil and still a couple weeks later the knots came through. That's when I learned the trick of spotting with aluminum roof coating as a last resort to stop pine tannins. A few years ago I read on here about smearing wood glue on pine knots, and that seems to be another long term way to stop them. 

I've seen pine several times over the years that over time would bleed through any primer you could come up with, save perhaps the extreme examples mentioned above. Real shellac is one of the best no doubt, but it's not fool proof. 

Since the curdling issues, I've not used the new Bin as much. It could turn out to be a flop in the long run, or need reformulating. 

But the advantage to using it, or any new tech product seems clear. To get away from solvent based coatings, and coatings that rely on bug spittle only found in India. If we don't try these new coatings, there's no way to know which ones work and which ones don't. 

Thanks for the update. 


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## PACman

Jmayspaint said:


> Too bad you didn't do one side, or half the board with regular for a comparison. It's not like regular shellac is %100 effective all the time, especially on pine knots.
> 
> I remember when I was young my dad doing a set of pine cabinets in a 100 year old house. He primed them with shellac and oil and still a couple weeks later the knots came through. That's when I learned the trick of spotting with aluminum roof coating as a last resort to stop pine tannins. A few years ago I read on here about smearing wood glue on pine knots, and that seems to be another long term way to stop them.
> 
> I've seen pine several times over the years that over time would bleed through any primer you could come up with, save perhaps the extreme examples mentioned above. Real shellac is one of the best no doubt, but it's not fool proof.
> 
> Since the curdling issues, I've not used the new Bin as much. It could turn out to be a flop in the long run, or need reformulating.
> 
> But the advantage to using it, or any new tech product seems clear. To get away from solvent based coatings, and coatings that rely on bug spittle only found in India. If we don't try these new coatings, there's no way to know which ones work and which ones don't.
> 
> Thanks for the update.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did both sides. And the ends. It's bleeding through on both sides. (or it was anyway. I needed to put it back up so I put a coat of Cali Stainkill primer and another coat of paint on it.) And I too have seen pine bleed knots bleed through even the best of sealers, including BIN. But this was the grain bleeding through and not so much just the knots. And it was three coats,each applied after a good 12-14 hours of dry time. Just knot a good result as far as I'm concerned.


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## Jmayspaint

PACman said:


> I did both sides. And the ends. It's bleeding through on both sides. (or it was anyway. I needed to put it back up so I put a coat of Cali Stainkill primer and another coat of paint on it.) And I too have seen pine bleed knots bleed through even the best of sealers, including BIN. But this was the grain bleeding through and not so much just the knots. And it was three coats,each applied after a good 12-14 hours of dry time. Just knot a good result as far as I'm concerned.




No it's knot. Knot a good sign at all 


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## PACman

Jmayspaint said:


> No it's knot. Knot a good sign at all
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then again, maybe my expectations of this product are a little higher then the average consumer. I mean, I did expect it to do what the label said it would do....


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## KirthGersen

PACman said:


> .... Now I have read the data sheet for this product, and it pretty much says i need to do a coat of straight shellac based bin to stop the bleed? Why the hell did I waste my time then? And what pray tell is the advantage to using this product?


I read the data sheet, revision 081015 (Aug10 2015 ??) and I'm not finding this warning anywhere. Maybe it was an old sheet you read, or there's been reformulation since you bought it?
Otherwise, yes, seems stupid to have to use 2 different primers.


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## Zoomer

Not nearly as good as Smart prime by Zinnser


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## professionalpainter37year

DrakeB said:


> I've been waffling on whether or not to bring in the BIN Advanced. On the one hand, huzzah for stuff going waterborne, on the other hand... always hard to believe the performance will be the same at first. Really appreciate the review! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like waterborne products are, across the board, vastly inferior when it comes to sanding compared to oil based products. At the very least it's something I've been told frequently about the Ben Moore products.


 Ben moore? You have got to be kidding with your product manufacturer statement. The product manufacturer is the zinser which is owned by PPG/porter


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

The poster you're quoting worked at a Ben Moore store, so he was referencing what he knew about their products and was not claiming Zinsser was a Ben Moore product. Seems a bit odd for your first post to dig up an old thread and chastise a former member by taking his quote out of context. If you have time, maybe make your second post and intro to tell us a bit about yourself and your work. Welcome to PT.


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