# How Much Does It Cost To Paint A House?



## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

For interior & exterior work, he claims that he charges by floor sq. ft.
He also claims that estimates are simple. 
2,200 sq. ft. home @ 1.00 per sq = $2,200 to paint. :jester:


----------



## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I wouldn't do it for that cheap!


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

agree, he's an amateur.


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm sure at a base price that is a fair amount. Start adding extra's like, eaves and trim different color than the body, garage door, front door, upgrade paint, etc. 

I average around $1.50-$2.25 for exteriors. Stucco homes are pretty easy though, not like the all wood homes some of you all have to deal with. What are your averages? $3.50?


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Lol a full exterior in a day with his crew.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I'm sure at a base price that is a fair amount. Start adding extra's like, eaves and trim different color than the body, garage door, front door, upgrade paint, etc.
> 
> I average around $1.50-$2.25 for exteriors. Stucco homes are pretty easy though, not like the all wood homes some of you all have to deal with. What are your averages? $3.50?


That's getting a little close to the dreaded "going rate" question...AKA the Red Zone.

We never priced interior work by the floor square foot when we were doing NC, but I can understand the approach. I can't even fathom pricing exteriors that way.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

"My price here in Idaho is going to be different.... ". Now there's an understatement!

I'm just glad that I don't live in the same Idaho that he does. Woof.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

The Earl Scheibe of house painters. I'll paint any house for 399.99. No ups, no extras!


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Brian C said:


> agree, he's an amateur.



With over 250 youtube videos & over 4million views on his channel I would say he is doing just fine.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

In his comment section he says they paint 4-5 houses a week. I wounder how much prep really goes into these homes. I bet he skips a lot. Any one can make a youtube video and explain stuff like he does. But how good is his work and how many return calls does he get for paint failures?


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, one things for sure, he gets a lot of exposure. This is at least the third thread about him in the past few months. And his vids are posted/ referenced all the time on the forums, usually in a positive light. 

I think its a pretty cool idea, doing some filming today myself.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> Well, one things for sure, he gets a lot of exposure. This is at least the third thread about him in the past few months. And his vids are posted/ referenced all the time on the forums, usually in a positive light.
> 
> I think its a pretty cool idea, doing some filming today myself.


Yeh, I agree. 

Who's to judge him for putting himself and his business out there.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I wouldn't want to be too quick to judge this guy based on the content of one YT video. However, I get the impression that he's using a McDonalds type business model. Consistent, reliable results, with high volume and low margins. That being said, I couldn't help but find myself wondering what corners he's cutting, either through his production systems, or employee/accounting methods.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

matt19422 said:


> With over 250 youtube videos & over 4million views on his channel I would say he is doing just fine.


The amount of YouTube videos you have does not have any indication of how well your painting business does, 

The age old sq foot of floor space price is getting out of hand. 

How much floor space you have in a home has no relevance to how much the house should cost to paint inside or out, period. Anyone who prices this way, or expects you to price this way has no idea of there real numbers so they are just happy to keep landing work with these foolish estimating tactics.

Sure, use it as a guideline... "The last home like this one we did came it to $4.50 a sq ft. So it should be somewhere near there"

But not as an accurate estimate which your income depends upon. Insane that this is how it is done by a lot of painters IMO


----------



## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

This question is the most viewed page of my site. A lot of people would ask the question because they have absolutely no idea how much it would cost to paint a house. I don't even know if I answer the question properly but it gets a lot of hits. 

BTW I don't have a cool video! 

The link http://repaintpro.com.au/#/blog-repaintpro/4569372424/How-much-will-it-cost-to-paint-my-house/4168447


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

wje said:


> The amount of YouTube videos you have does not have any indication of how well your painting business does, The age old sq foot of floor space price is getting out of hand. How much floor space you have in a home has no relevance to how much the house should cost to paint inside or out, period. Anyone who prices this way, or expects you to price this way has no idea of there real numbers so they are just happy to keep landing work with these foolish estimating tactics. Sure, use it as a guideline... "The last home like this one we did came it to $4.50 a sq ft. So it should be somewhere near there" But not as an accurate estimate which your income depends upon. Insane that this is how it is done by a lot of painters IMO


As long as every house there're painting are exactly the same , then I could see his system working fine. I don't take the you tubes as gospel. There's a lot of BS out there.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

*


wje said:



The amount of YouTube videos you have does not have any indication of how well your painting business does,

Click to expand...

*


wje said:


> Your correct, of course it doesn't. But criticizing and dissecting his videos, speculating his method or accounting doesn't tell anyone on this forum either.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I can't remember if Bender has weighed in on this character, they're not far from each other down there in South Idaho.

Knowing the area a little, I'd guess that he's working the newer areas down there, which do have a LOT of cookie-cutter houses. Parts of the Boise Valley look like a mini version of some of the SoCal builder subdivisions.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

It doesn't surprise me in the least that painting contractors can be successful with all kinds of approaches to the painting business, given the different accepted levels of a finished product, and materials that allow adequate performance while reducing prep and application proceedures. The industry is generally designed to accomplish the application of paint to as much square footage as possible, and within the least amount of time, materials, and resources. Unless a painting contractor's market is a specialty niche, i.e. custom homes, high end remodels, or industrial applications, how could you compete with those that are giving what most paint customers are looking for, and what they're willing to pay? Which isn't really much at the end of the day given the economy's affect on budgets.

As much as I would like to believe that I only provide the best I have to offer, all of the time, I don't. There have been countless times where I've had to make the less then desirable decision, in terms of procedures and products, in order to fullfil time or budget constraints. But then again, I don't have the customer base or skill set leverage, to always negotiate for the premium applications that would better serve the industry, standards, and my own ethical sensibilities.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

matt19422 said:


> Your correct, of course it doesn't. But criticizing and dissecting his videos, speculating his method or accounting doesn't tell anyone on this forum either.


People like to believe everything they see and hear, so if one guy is telling the masses how things are correctly done, and they believe him,, it will cheapen our trade. 

I haven't watched any of the videos you guys are referring too, but I don't need to. I've seen enough videos on YouTube to get the gist of it. 

Then again, if people are educating themselves on YouTube before they call me, they are probably not the people I am looking to work for anyways, so I guess it really doesn't concern me in the least.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

wje said:


> People like to believe everything they see and hear, so if one guy is telling the masses how things are correctly done, and they believe him,, it will cheapen our trade.
> 
> I haven't watched any of the videos you guys are referring too, but I don't need to. I've seen enough videos on YouTube to get the gist of it.
> 
> Then again, if people are educating themselves on YouTube before they call me, they are probably not the people I am looking to work for anyways, so I guess it really doesn't concern me in the least.


Yeah, we saw that in the cold and flu remedy thread...:whistling2:


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Some of you crack me up.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

To hell with his pricing and marketing strategies, he can't be any good - just look at his tats.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

wje said:


> The amount of YouTube videos you have does not have any indication of how well your painting business does,
> 
> The age old sq foot of floor space price is getting out of hand.
> 
> ...


I agree that square foot number means jack squat. The scope of work, and the end product is what matters. 

Its Mercedes to a Chevy cobalt.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Goes back to one of my old posts on being a craftsman vs being a business man. Is he qualified to make a video on pricing? I don't know.. who would be though?


----------



## READY TO ROLL (Dec 12, 2011)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I'm sure at a base price that is a fair amount. Start adding extra's like, eaves and trim different color than the body, garage door, front door, upgrade paint, etc.
> 
> I average around $1.50-$2.25 for exteriors. Stucco homes are pretty easy though, not like the all wood homes some of you all have to deal with. What are your averages? $3.50?


I agree, It's a whole different ballgame in the east with all the wood siding and all.


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

His prices are too cheap, so regardless of how many U Tube hits he has, he's not earning what he should.


----------



## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

I like how he asks for donations lol
Maybe he does quote to low


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

He's charging 175 to spray a flat door, which is not bad.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> With over 250 youtube videos & over 4million views on his channel I would say he is doing just fine.


Great, so now 4 million people believe they should only have to pay $1/ft to have their houses painted. What a crock of sh!t.


----------



## Grateful_Monk (Jul 17, 2012)

Before I drive out to an estimate I always ask several questions pertaining to the job including if they received an other quotes. From this I give them a ballpark sq. ft. price so I don't waste my time.

I'm not sure this guy is claiming he charges $1 a foot or is just using it as an example. I think it's a great tool to get your phone to start ringing. He states that the price changes. I bet he's never sold a job for $1 a foot and the video is clearly working for him.

Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Great, so now 4 million people believe they should only have to pay $1/ft to have their houses painted. What a crock of sh!t.


No, but I bet his phone is ringing, his crews are busy, and he figured out a system that works for him.

Yes some outfits are production based, and others are craftsman, ultimately the homeowner decides what they want from who they want.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

wje said:


> People like to believe everything they see and hear, so if one guy is telling the masses how things are correctly done, and they believe him,, it will cheapen our trade.
> 
> I haven't watched any of the videos you guys are referring too, but I don't need to. I've seen enough videos on YouTube to get the gist of it.
> 
> Then again, *if people are educating themselves on YouTube before they call me, they are probably not the people I am looking to work for* anyways, so I guess it really doesn't concern me in the least.


BINGO! We have a winner.:thumbup:


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Gough said:


> "My price here in Idaho is going to be different.... ". Now there's an understatement!
> 
> I'm just glad that *I don't live in the same Idaho that he does*. Woof.


Do you live in your own private Idaho?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEEl4dZzV8g


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

East coast or west coast charging $1.50 a sq ft of floor is nuts. Pick up a painting book from the 80"s on running a paint business or estimating that's what most painters were charging then -- its now 2014!!

It will always boggle my mind how hard painters are willing to work for so little money. Painting here has gone backwards in pricing not forward and it's the so called painting contactors fault . A good friend of mine who owned a local independent paint store for 30 plus years used to say. I can count the number of businessmen that come into my paint store on one hand.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Do you live in your own private Idaho?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEEl4dZzV8g


Thanks for that.

It's a bit of a running joke that there are actually two Idahos: North Idaho and South Idaho. Some people even say that South Idaho is really North Utah.


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

You do know there is a recession that we are still climbing out of. There was a huge construction bubble that burst and these rates and wages are the result


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

RH said:


> To hell with his pricing and marketing strategies, he can't be any good - just look at his tats.


Tats out number his stats!


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> No, but I bet his phone is ringing, his crews are busy, and he figured out a system that works for him.
> 
> Yes some outfits are production based, and others are craftsman, ultimately the homeowner decides what they want from who they want.


Bet his ears are ringing as well!:whistling2:


----------



## SprayCutAndRoll (Oct 12, 2013)

I actually find his videos to be really good. He has some pretty good tips & tricks to share. Also, I watched a few videos of him prepping houses, and doesn't seem to be missing anything (as in mask windows with 3M Masker, tie down bushes, mask everything in the house to spray woodwork).

I think he's doing just fine, lol.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I think a lot of guys are still stuck on the brush and roller....
Them days are over


----------



## SprayCutAndRoll (Oct 12, 2013)

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

But yeah, I agree.


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

If you watch some of his other videos, which I have because I watch and read almost anything paint related I can find, he has a business model that clearly works for him.

He has production levels with a sprayer that would take me years to match, but just as his business model wouldn't work for me, mine probably wouldn't work for him.

He sprays entire exteriors, gutters, fascias, everything (at least from what I can tell). I would imagine he mostly does houses that don't need a lot of prep work, but if that's his niche then he's done something that most painters will never do- stop chasing every last lead he gets and focus on something he is comfortable doing day in and day out. 

From what I've seen it doesn't look like he is running around not prepping houses or painting over peeling paint, he's just a production painter with unorthodox methods.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> No, but I bet his phone is ringing, his crews are busy, and he figured out a system that works for him. Yes some outfits are production based, and others are craftsman, ultimately the homeowner decides what they want from who they want.


Thats right. Exactly how HD, WM, and McDonalds are so profitable. Selling huge volumes of sub-par products to masses through slick marketing campaigns. I just get upset when I see it happen in my profession. I guess it's inevitable though. Carry on.....


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Gough said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> It's a bit of a running joke that *there are actually two Idahos: North Idaho and South Idaho.* Some people even say that South Idaho is really North Utah.


It's all Greek to me.
A quick look at the geography shows two distinctly different areas within the state. Hillbillies and Flatlanders. Much the same here.

I've watched a few of this guys vids and they're not my cup of tea.
Bits of misinformation mixed in with some moxie.
Gotta hand it to the dude, he's not camera shy.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Thats right. Exactly how HD, WM, and McDonalds are so profitable. Selling huge volumes of sub-par products to masses through slick marketing campaigns. I just get upset when I see it happen in my profession. I guess it's inevitable though. Carry on.....


Spot on.
You've spotted another sprinter in the race.


----------



## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Thats right. Exactly how HD, WM, and McDonalds are so profitable. Selling huge volumes of sub-par products to masses through slick marketing campaigns. I just get upset when I see it happen in my profession. I guess it's inevitable though. Carry on.....


I know lots of painters who may look the part but you get past there smoke & mirrors and the whole marketing they are a little sloppy like the pics lol

But saying that it doesn't stop them getting work 
They seem to keep being busy


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I should make a YT video saying my exteriors cost $40/ft. Then any calls I get from it will be from people looking to spend big $$$$.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I should make a YT video saying my exteriors cost $40/ft. Then any calls I get from it will be from people looking to spend big $$$$.


Try it, you'll like it.:yes:


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

CApainter said:


> It doesn't surprise me in the least that painting contractors can be successful with all kinds of approaches to the painting business, given the different accepted levels of a finished product, and materials that allow adequate performance while reducing prep and application proceedures. The industry is generally designed to accomplish the application of paint to as much square footage as possible, and within the least amount of time, materials, and resources. Unless a painting contractor's market is a specialty niche, i.e. custom homes, high end remodels, or industrial applications, *how could you compete with those that are giving what most paint customers are looking for*, and what they're willing to pay? Which isn't really much at the end of the day given the economy's affect on budgets.
> 
> .




I think for the most part contractors are providing HO'ers with what they want within budgets provided. its only on here where everything is done to make believe standards


----------



## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

Ole34 said:


> I think for the most part contractors are providing HO'ers with what they want within budgets provided. its only on here where everything is done to make believe standards




LOL.................Nice! :thumbup:


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Did he make the example of $1/floor sq/ft or $1/square?

This would make a huge difference as I will estimate the later way for exteriors sometimes with very little prep. I just run the perimeter of the house then multiply the height including the eaves and fascia. Usually a 2500 sq/ft house will run 3600 squares. So that would be $3600 plus add any doors that get painted. 

We have some guys that drop flyers for $1.25 sq/ft but they dont specify floor or wall. At $1.25 that is pretty high for CA.


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Did he make the example of $1/floor sq/ft or $1/square?
> 
> This would make a huge difference as I will estimate the later way for exteriors sometimes with very little prep. I just run the perimeter of the house then multiply the height including the eaves and fascia. Usually a 2500 sq/ft house will run 3600 squares. So that would be $3600 plus add any doors that get painted.
> 
> We have some guys that drop flyers for $1.25 sq/ft but they dont specify floor or wall. At $1.25 that is pretty high for CA.


If I'm doing 1 coat thats doesnt sound too far off.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Let's do the math:

2000' house =
3600' of painted surface including soffits and gables =
Minimum of 12 gal body paint x $25=$300, for one good coat of cheap paint +
2 gallons trim paint $60 +
Masking, caulk, misc =$60
Materials=$420 minimum one coat, cheap paint
No door painting
Painting labor: 5 guys, one 8 hour day= 40 hours
Conservative average labor cost, wage+employment tax+ WC=$23
Overhead w/o owner salary:$3/hr
Owners salary:$12/hr
Total labor rate before net profit:$38 x $40= $1520 + $420= $1940
Net profit =$60 or 3%
What about pressure washing? Or any overages? I guess that comes out of the owners salary? 
I stand by my BS call.


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

sorry double post


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

It's going to take 5 guys 8 hours to spray a 2000' house and your only getting 300' a gallon spraying.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Toolnut said:


> It's going to take 5 guys 8 hours to spray a 2000' house and your only getting 300' a gallon spraying.


 logistics and deployment, set up, scrape, mask, caulk, fill sand, prime, spray body, paint trim, touch up, clean up. 40 hours is a lot quicker than we do it. 300'/gal is pretty generous considering it's a sprayed ( back brushed/rolled?) one coat system.


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Ya, I'm not doing a 2000 sf house in 40 hours. 

I did a 2200 sf house in January and it had 43 windows. I don't see how including windows in your wall sf price could be accurate when every house has a different number and size of windows.


----------



## ttalbon (Aug 6, 2009)

He must be professional cos he wears whites! :thumbup:


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Repaintpro said:


> LOL.................Nice! :thumbup:


Most contactors here give HO"s what's in there own budget cause they bid the job way to low and do shoddy work cut corners. There's not allot of long time panting contactors here and the number biggest reasons are lack of estimating knowledge and what to charge .They the contactor even with all the tools a available to them do not know how to run a business to make a profit and earn a good living or wage.

That's not make belive where I hang my brush that's a fact! :thumbsup:


----------



## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Let's do the math:
> 
> 2000' house =
> 3600' of painted surface including soffits and gables =
> ...


I believe he said he charges $1.50 per sq., so that would be a 2000 sq., ft., house = $3,000 paint job. 

Now if he is one of the 5 man crew, he would earn $304 for his days labor, plus an additional $1,000 for the missing .50 per sq., plus the $60 profit totaling: $1,364 (in the owners pocket for 1 days work).

But we don’t know what the actual scope of work is, or the real numbers.


----------



## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Nick, that is why we are "breaking the painting cycle" !


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> *Most contactors here give HO"s what's in there own budget cause they bid the job way to low and do shoddy work cut corners.* There's not allot of long time panting contactors here and the number biggest reasons are lack of estimating knowledge and what to charge .They the contactor even with all the tools a available to them do not know how to run a business to make a profit and earn a good living or wage.
> 
> That's not make belive where I hang my brush that's a fact! :thumbsup:


most contractors here give HO'ers what they want within budgets PROVIDED by the HOMEOWNERS... has nothing to do with bidding. kind of like how walmart prvides merchandise for people within their budgets and if people want better they can go to a premium store. 

i never understood why some guys feel the need to shove ''quailty'' down peoples throats. its up to us as proffesionals to educate the consumer an then LISTEN to their needs an budget limits then put together a package that best fits their situation


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

A craftsman can't help being a craftsman, no matter how much or little he gets paid.

"The way you do anything is the way you do everything."


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I dont get out of bed for less than $ 500- a day.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Ole34 said:


> most contractors here give HO'ers what they want within budgets PROVIDED by the HOMEOWNERS... has nothing to do with bidding. kind of like how walmart prvides merchandise for people within their budgets and if people want better they can go to a premium store.
> 
> i never understood why some guys feel the need to shove ''quailty'' down peoples throats. its up to us as proffesionals to educate the consumer an then LISTEN to their needs an budget limits then put together a package that best fits their situation


Because the next guy will listen just like you and then lowball the price and do **** work . I feel the need to inform my customer about the quality and warranty of my work. If they want a blow and go I'm not there guy. I understand all about budgets but wasting hard earned money on a job that might last couple years is allot more expensive then doing it right and having it last. I LISTEN to my customers and I want them to listen to me so they don't piss there hard earned money away on a **** job or **** low grade paint.


----------



## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Because the next guy will listen just like you and then lowball the price and do **** work . I feel the need to inform my customer about the quality and warranty of my work. If they want a blow and go I'm not there guy. I understand all about budgets but wasting hard earned money on a job that might last couple years is allot more expensive then doing it right and having it last. I LISTEN to my customers and I want them to listen to me so they don't piss there hard earned money away on a **** job or **** low grade paint.


I agree Nick, it's very frustrating sometimes.
Just yesterday at a house failing miserably after only 3 years.

HO kept saying she wanted 'best price' and wanted an extensive warranty.
I pointed at the house and said "you already got the best price, see where that leads?"

House was failing at original prime coat, no way I was taking responsibility for that or any of the crap work that happened before.

Educated her and will be providing a couple options but if she wants a warranty all the paint is coming off the siding so I have a fresh start. If she can/will pay she'll get what she wants otherwise she'll be repainting every couple of years.


----------



## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

The 3rd Coat said:


> "The way you do anything is the way you do everything."


One of my favorite quotes.
I'm about to tattoo it on my son's forehead.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The 3rd Coat said:


> A craftsman can't help being a craftsman, no matter how much or little he gets paid.
> 
> "The way you do anything is the way you do everything."


In my opinion, If you're going to be a craftsman, all of the time, and expect to make a living at it, you'd better have a niche and reputation to sustain it. Otherwise, you'll always feel like you're compromising you're ethics. And the fact is, too many painters who believe they're craftsmen, are kidding themselves. Identifying one's self with being a Craftsman is often a way to defer the fact that many painters just are not as fast as too many others, or they don't have the resources to complete jobs in a timely manner. 

I would think that a business model that has a little flexibility, in terms of being able to meet the varying economies within the home improvement market, would provide a good balance for a painting business faced with a very competetive market.

Another observation about painting craftsmenship. Sometimes all the efforts one puts into a painting project can fail just the same way as a project with less effort put in. For example. T3C (The 3'rd Coat) made a fantastic video of himself repairing the interior plaster around a window. From prepping to finish. Beautiful job! But as good as that job was, it is only going to be as good as the leak repair that caused the damage in the first place. 

The point is, Craftmenship depends on everyone doing the right thing all of the time. And in this era of "Let's move on to other things", good luck depending on others.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Because the next guy will listen just like you and then lowball the price and do **** work . .



Why are you so fixated on low balling?.... An experienced painter can do a professional Job well within most reasonable budgets especially on interiors.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can come in low on a job because I know what I'm doing and I know what needs to be done while another guy with less experience has to practically double my bid to get the same
Results .....


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I never ask a person's budget. Why? For one it's irrelevant. The second reason is that very rarely does anyone have an idea what things truly cost. As a painter I would sell my level of quality, convenience and reputation and maybe offer the homeowner the option of saving a little bit on materials. Other than that, what they are willing to spend ties into what Nick is saying.. either they can afford my service or they can't. 

During a presentation is the time to slowly and methodically tick up that price the homeowner has in his or her head. Selling value (benefits, benefits, benefits) is going to beat selling on cost every day of the week.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Budget wasn't meant to be takin literally .... Over the years I've learned to feel people out without having to ask them


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> Budget wasn't meant to be takin literally .... Over the years I've learned to feel people out without having to ask them


I hear what you are saying. After you have been in business awhile you develop a sixth sense for things. So let's say you feel me out and think I don't want to or can't afford to spend money. I live in a modest house, modest car sitting in the driveway. What would you propose to me that would be different than a guy you perceive as loaded and looks like he spends money?


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> I hear what you are saying. After you have been in business awhile you develop a sixth sense for things. So let's say you feel me out and think I don't want to or can't afford to spend money. I live in a modest house, modest car sitting in the driveway. What would you propose to me that would be different than a guy you perceive as loaded and looks like he spends money?



I don't bid them different really. Ken were from the same area so you'll understand this. Say I bid a Philly row home and a main line house with equal quality in mind. The main line house is gonna cost more jus by the nature of how it's constructed. To achieve the same results on the ceilings the main line home is gonna require 2 coats on practically the entire first floor due to all the vaulted ceilings an huge bay windows. Not an issue with the row home. The main line home will have huge built ins and crown molding in every room the row home will have a pine book shelf and so on an so on

My issue is with the guys who bid row homes out with 2 coats on ceilings an trim ....skim coating closets et etc just so they can be PRO.... Just not needed for that type of market unless expressly required by the Ho'er.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Gotcha and that makes sense. You're offering less (because that is all that is needed) and that is what makes a job fit into the budget of someone in a row home. The higher end work is sold to people that need/demand it.


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

CApainter said:


> For example. T3C (The 3'rd Coat) made a fantastic video of himself repairing the interior plaster around a window. From prepping to finish. Beautiful job! But as good as that job was, it is only going to be as good as the leak repair that caused the damage in the first place.


In the case of these plaster repairs, almost all of them I do are insurance jobs. They pay for fixing the leaks first, then we can move on to the plastering/painting.
Obviously my warranty can't cover the roofers' mistakes or slack work, but providing quality helps my reputation grow and allows me to charge decent prices.
The way to make money is not to change your quality of service depending on how much you're getting, but to focus on a market niche that will pay good money for the kind of service you like to provide. That's what I try to do, I get a lot of requests that I don't even consider quoting on because I know I can't do well out of them. Not everyone is suited to spraying apartments, just like not everyone is suited to do elaborate repairs.
Hopefully we can all work ourselves into a market where we are the happiest.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> I never ask a person's budget. Why? For one it's irrelevant. The second reason is that very rarely does anyone have an idea what things truly cost. As a painter I would sell my level of quality, convenience and reputation and maybe offer the homeowner the option of saving a little bit on materials. Other than that, what they are willing to spend ties into what Nick is saying.. either they can afford my service or they can't.
> 
> During a presentation is the time to slowly and methodically tick up that price the homeowner has in his or her head. *Selling value* (benefits, benefits, benefits) is going to beat selling on cost every day of the week.


2 words sum it all up.
Are you the better value or is the other guy?
Prove it. Sell it. Be it.

Or relegate yourself to some hyper-competitive middle earth where somebody (HO or competitor) is hungrier than you are.
F that.
Raise the bar.
It's waaaaay more fun.
Trust me.


----------



## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

Painting isn't cheap....work hard and love to paint...imo remember I was a block Mason and painting was my my passion from 18


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Monstertruck said:


> 2 words sum it all up.
> Are you the better value or is the other guy?
> Prove it. Sell it. Be it.
> 
> ...


Or, you can accept the fact that trying to be a craftsman in this trade will require a commitment and reputation that most painters don't have the stomach for to survive. Therefore, you become the hamburger instead of the steak. But hey, there's a big appetite for burger.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Or, you can accept the fact that trying to be a craftsman in this trade will require a commitment and reputation that most painters don't have the stomach for to survive. Therefore, you become the hamburger instead of the steak. But hey, there's a big appetite for burger.


I didn't take that he was touting craftsmanship per se, but overall value. My definition of value is helping the customer understand that you are worth what you are providing. That could be speed, cleanliness, less expensive, communication or an incredible paint job for top dollar. I was asking Ole to define because I wasn't sure how he was tying that to a budget. That may work for Ole but it would never work for a perfectionist who, no matter what he charges, is compelled to do every job at craftsman level. Ole will survive and thrive. The latter will not unless he/she charges much more and has the sales skill and organization to back it up (like you mentioned.. rare)


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We just looked at a job. just a shade under 2k sqft, water damage all over the ceilings and going down the walls plus crappy mud/tape repair. We came in at our price and even dropped it 15%. The HO says we only budgeted $1500 for the entire project. We came back and said we can do T&M until we hit your budget and stop. No call back yet.

We do try to work with people that are on a limited budget and do what we can. This house was just way to much work to even think $1500 would be enough.

We did that last week, a different Lady was screwed over by all her contractors who bled her dry. We came in T&M and got a good amount of work done. This helped her out. She does have another painter doing exterior who wouldn't budge off his interior price. The new addition we worked in we now have the exterior, garage and stairs to do later this summer. In the end working with her helped us land more work.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I chose to go the craftsman route from the very beginning. Working on challenging projects, for challenging people can be very rewarding. I feel like it's better for the industry, as a whole, as well. Craftsman can charge more, thus raising the bar, allowing even low-ballers raise there rates. Low ballers have the opposite effect. For example, I think it would be much more effective to make a series of YT videos that show off the highest level of craftsmanship that justify higher prices. Like what Shearer does up here in my market for example. The opposite of telling the world on YT that exterior painting should only cost $1/ft.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I should have said craftsmen and concierge, because service is equally important as craftsmanship.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I chose to go the craftsman route from the very beginning. Working on challenging projects, for challenging people can be very rewarding. I feel like it's better for the industry, as a whole, as well. Craftsman can charge more, thus raising the bar, allowing even low-ballers raise there rates. Low ballers have the opposite effect. For example, I think it would be much more effective to make a series of YT videos that show off the highest level of craftsmanship that justify higher prices. Like what Shearer does up here in my market for example. The opposite of telling the world on YT that exterior painting should only cost $1/ft.


But just like Ole alluded to, sometimes a paint job just doesn't require primer, extra preparation, a spray finish, or multiple finish coats. Particularly since advancements in paint resins, patching compounds, and spray technologies, allow paints to perform with less support from primers, wait times, and multiple coats then they had in the past.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

CApainter said:


> But just like Ole eluded to, sometimes a paint job just doesn't require primer, extra preparation, a spray finish, or multiple finish coats. Particularly since advancements in paint resins, patching compounds, and spray technologies, allow paints to perform with less support from primers, wait times, and multiple coats then they had in the past.


Agreed that products seem to be evolving at an ever quickening pace. Although, I'm still a believer that two coats are almost always (I know there are exceptions) better than one. My perception has always been that the craftsman/concierge will be rewarded with the more profitable jobs. I know that's not always the case, and high profits can also be had through efficiency and volume. For me, I guess it's easier to offer high quality work and service, rather than be ultra efficient and high volume. Maybe one day I'll be able to do all of the above. I know I have lots of room for improvement.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

He's very much right about the bid packet. I took a college course on writing technical documents and our closing rate improved noticeably.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SeaMonster said:


> He's very much right about the bid packet. I took a college course on writing technical documents and our closing rate improved noticeably.


But still keep it at a level your typical HO can comprehend. Don't ever start writing things up like a damned lawyer.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

RH said:


> But still keep it at a level your typical HO can comprehend. Don't ever start writing things up like a damned lawyer.


Consumers are accustomed to a certain type of presentation. You can't just go with what you think is best.


----------



## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Yea but not all customers. I don't know why we can't treat each customer as an individual. There is no one way to bid every job. Some people want a craftsman and others just want a paintjob. They all have money. It would be pretty stupid to walk away from jobs just because they don't view painting like you do. It is only painting after all.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Carl said:


> Yea but not all customers. I don't know why we can't treat each customer as an individual. There is no one way to bid every job. Some people want a craftsman and others just want a paintjob. They all have money. It would be pretty stupid to walk away from jobs just because they don't view painting like you do. It is only painting after all.


that sounds great in theory. In reality though, you can't go into a fine steak house a request a $1.00 hamburger because that's how much they are at McDonalds. The steak house doesn't know how to make a $1.00 burger. The same goes for my business. I don't know how to paint a house at $1/ft and make a profit. I can't be the end-all-be-all painter for everybody. I target a segment of the market and focus on serving that segment to the best of my abilities.


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Maybe I'm wrong but I understood him to say he used the $1/$1.50 as a base then went and looked as to prep or anything else extra and adjusted price. Sure seems like he has found something that works for him. Did not see anywhere on that 6 minute video where he said anybody else had to do it that way.
Just out of curiosity does anyone fell you can over price yourself out of business just as easy as under pricing?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Toolnut said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but I understood him to say he used the $1/$1.50 as a base then went and looked as to prep or anything else extra and adjusted price. Sure seems like he has found something that works for him. Did not see anywhere on that 6 minute video where he said anybody else had to do it that way.
> Just out of curiosity does anyone fell you can over price yourself out of business just as easy as under pricing?


This is exactly what I had interpreted floor space square foot pricing to be in previous threads about this subject. It's only a standard base method of pricing that has the potential to build on once the contractor has visited the job site. How hard can it be to create a very basic square foot price?


----------



## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

Good for him. I have watched some of his videos in the past. As far as his pricing, as long as it works for him who are we to judge.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Toolnut said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but I understood him to say he used the $1/$1.50 as a base then went and looked as to prep or anything else extra and adjusted price. Sure seems like he has found something that works for him. Did not see anywhere on that 6 minute video where he said anybody else had to do it that way.
> Just out of curiosity does anyone fell you can over price yourself out of business just as easy as under pricing?


Maybe.. if you are an absolute glutton. If you walk in and ask for $8K to paint a 15'x18' bedroom I doubt you would get much business. 

Closing jobs is directly proportional to your company's ability to sell. I sold $30K basement remodels for a company that competed with guys offering the same square footage for $10K. The company I was subbing sales for does $4M a year. I am guessing the $10K independent guy does maybe $250K/yr.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> that sounds great in theory. In reality though, you can't go into a fine steak house a request a $1.00 hamburger because that's how much they are at McDonalds. The steak house doesn't know how to make a $1.00 burger. The same goes for my business. I don't know how to paint a house at $1/ft and make a profit. I can't be the end-all-be-all painter for everybody. I target a segment of the market and focus on serving that segment to the best of my abilities.



I think that's great, and that is the direction I'm wanting my business to go. 
It seems like Idaho painter is targeting a different segment of the market, and that's fine too. 

In my career I have had the opportunity to do a wide variety of different levels of work. Early on I was lucky to work with a couple high end custom builders who did houses where literally 'money was no object' I was thinking about that this morning, one house we did came out to $20+ a square (floor) to paint inside and out. I had a real good start with a formal apprenticeship, and the opportunity to develop my skills at a very high level. 

From there (for reasons completely unrelated to business) I moved to a different area and got into doing NC for prices in the neighborhood of $1.25 a square. At first I was completely baffled at how this would even be possible. But after a while I learned a new skill set, and got to where I could do those type homes to an acceptable level of quality and still make money. 

Right after the crash I moved back home, got back in with one of my old builders and restarted with my old customer base here. Since then, I try to get as much high end work as possible, but I also don't mind to do simpler jobs for average middle class people who really don't mind if you don't point up there walls for a week and detail out the trim work. 

My point is that painters that focus on different segments of the market are not necessarily "hacks" or even a threat to those who focus on other segments. Some of us focus on a wide range of market segments, and need to be flexible both in pricing, and level of detail. 

'Raising the bar' can mean more than targeting higher and higher level work. It can also mean raising the value provided at all levels of work.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> 'Raising the bar' can mean more than targeting higher and higher level work. It can also mean raising the value provided at all levels of work.


Nice quote!

In discussions where the subject matter provides multiple levels of acceptability, a social status will ensue. At Paint Talk, it is the "High End" painters verses the "Production" painters, and every thing in between. "High End" denotes a sense of craftsmanship, where as "Production" denotes less then craftsmanship, but not quite hack. And just like in the larger context of the building industry, where the social structure of all trades are inclusive if not necessarily equally respected, so are the different levels of painters.

Personally, I like the momentum of being a 'logistical" painter. Meaning, that instead of being mired down in the minutia of perfection and craftsmanship, I prefer to focus on what's going to get me in and out of a project as soon as possible without completely compromising basic painting standards. As a consequence of my efficiency, sometimes I will provide a very high quality product, but most of the time it's acceptable, to an average degree. But hey, I've made a pretty good living at it!


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Personally, I like the momentum of being a 'logistical" painter. Meaning, that *instead of being mired down in the minutia of perfection and craftsmanship, I prefer to focus on what's going to get me in and out of a project as soon as possible without completely compromising basic painting standards.* [/QUOTE
> 
> Bingo. And, you don't strike me as someone who cuts corners or does subpar work.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> CApainter said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, I like the momentum of being a 'logistical" painter. Meaning, that *instead of being mired down in the minutia of perfection and craftsmanship, I prefer to focus on what's going to get me in and out of a project as soon as possible without completely compromising basic painting standards.* [/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree that all levels can be rewarding and profitable. As a matter of fact, I believe that it would be more difficult to develop systems that are both low priced, and value driven. I guess that's one reason why I have chosen my path. The only point I've been trying to make is that making YT videos promoting low prices can have the negative effect of lowering the expectations of normal people who view the videos, and thus be damaging to the industry. No disrespect was intended to the low price value producers.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I agree that all levels can be rewarding and profitable. As a matter of fact, I believe that it would be more difficult to develop systems that are both low priced, and value driven. I guess that's one reason why I have chosen my path. The only point I've been trying to make is that making YT videos promoting low prices can have the negative effect of lowering the expectations of normal people who view the videos, and thus be damaging to the industry. No disrespect was intended to the low price value producers.


I'm not convinced that the average homeowner will ever put the value on painting that we all know we deserve. And as long as that demographic exists, there will always be a market for an average paint job. Not to be flippant, but Steak houses aren't the only ones who are selling meat.

On the other hand, there are craftsmen like your self, who we need to thrive in order to maintain the painting standards and skill sets that we can all refer to. I just think that that market requires more of a commitment then most of us are willing to make.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Any savvy businessman should (most of the time) be able to determine the level of quality and resulting effort a customer wants and is willing to pay for. As long as the remuneration matches those then work is work. Turning it down because of pride or an unwillingness to adjust is shortsighted IMO.

Professionalism should never be sacrificed regardless of what type of job it is.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

RH said:


> Any savvy businessman should (most of the time) be able to determine the level of quality and resulting effort a customer wants and is willing to pay for. As long as the remuneration matches those then work is work. Turning it down because of pride or an unwillingness to adjust is shortsighted IMO.
> 
> Professionalism should never be sacrificed regardless of what type of job it is.


Well said:yes:


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

_Remuneration_ is the compensation that one receives in exchange for the work or services performed. Typically, this consists of monetary reward


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Personally, I like the momentum of being a 'logistical" painter. Meaning,* that instead of being mired down in the minutia of perfection and craftsmanship, I prefer to focus on what's going to get me in and out of a project as soon as possible without completely compromising basic painting standards*. As a consequence of my efficiency, sometimes I will provide a very high quality product, but most of the time it's acceptable, to an average degree. But hey, I've made a pretty good living at it!




add tight lines an you have yourself what the majority of homeowners in america are looking for ..... A PROFFESIONAL PAINT JOB.

now granted there are exceptions for niche markets i.e HIGH END and apt jobs but in general people just want a proffesional paint job


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> _Remuneration_ is the compensation that one receives in exchange for the work or services performed. Typically, this consists of monetary reward


How about _atypical_ remuneration? There's a topic that would be interesting.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> add tight lines an you have yourself what the majority of homeowners in america are looking for ..... A PROFFESIONAL PAINT JOB.
> 
> now granted there are exceptions for niche markets i.e HIGH END and apt jobs but in general people just want a proffesional paint job


And after twenty years of stroking a brush, by default you'll make a decent straight line whether you meant to or not.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> And after twenty years of stroking a brush, by default you'll make a decent straight line whether you meant to or not.


:notworthy:
That's why I think of myself as a technician as opposed to an artist. I can make a straight line or _follow_ a crooked line with a paint brush. But I don't _create_ lines that are artistic.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I only consider myself an artist in the medium of BS. Probably why I feel so at home on PT. :yes:


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

RH said:


> I only consider myself an artist in the medium of BS. Probably why I feel so at home on PT. :yes:


 And as a connoisseur of your art form, I salute you, Dan. :thumbup:


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> :notworthy: That's why I think of myself as a technician as opposed to an artist. I can make a straight line or follow a crooked line with a paint brush. But I don't create lines that are artistic.



Those attic rooms with the ceiling that curves down into the wall can be boarder line artistic at times especially with deep colors


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ole34 said:


> Those attic rooms with the ceiling that curves down into the wall can be boarder line artistic at times especially with deep colors


No doubt. We have to try and create an "illusion" of a straight line.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> No disrespect was intended to the low price value producers.


Low price is not an indicator of value. Just wanted to clear up my stand on the issue of presenting value. You provide a high quality job, above-and-beyond customer service and an overall good experience (just based on my interpretation of what you have written). For the customers that are willing to pay for that level, you too provide value. Low price can in turn be a terrible value for the homeowner if all he got was low price, terrible customer service and a hack paint job.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

You guys have some great points, but I think things are being a bit over complicated here. 
The best advice I ever received was from that jerk Donald Trump; give the customer more and charge less. I've been fully focused on that for about 3 years. In this business giving them more simply means the paint job looks great and lasts long, which is the easy part. Now figure out the cheapest way of delivering that...hopefully I'll figure it out in the next 20 years


----------



## painter1986 (Mar 19, 2012)

I've actually spoken with him on the phone at length. We bought his bid packet (which was kind of a waste of $150.00) because we ended up creating our own, but it was helpful. I'll tell you he definitely charges more than $1.00/sq ft. From what I could tell just from talking to him, he averages between 3-4k per exterior. Mostly all suburbs, no scraping, doesn't back-roll (I know there's some debate about the efficacy of that around here). He adds a lot of stuff on. 

He has a ton of YouTube videos - all for SEO purposes. Truth be told, he's kind of a cocky fella, bragged quite a bit. Definitely wanted me to know that he's doing well and speaking with me was just a favor. I would assume this video is just to get people to call him.

I actually met a guy who learned to paint just by watching his how-to videos. Needless to say, he didn't last a year.

I like to see how other people do stuff - for better or worse, I think it's fun.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

SeaMonster said:


> You guys have some great points, but I think things are being a bit over complicated here.
> The best advice I ever received was from that jerk Donald Trump; give the customer more and charge less. I've been fully focused on that for about 3 years. In this business giving them more simply means the paint job looks great and lasts long, which is the easy part. Now figure out the cheapest way of delivering that...hopefully I'll figure it out in the next 20 years


I'm wondering if Donald trump sells his NYC apartments for a dramatically lower s.f. price? 

You won't figure it out in 20 years because.. it can't exist in this universe. The happy reality is to give exactly what the customer is willing to pay for. No more, no less. Everyone walks away satisfied.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't know if you guys subscribe to many peoples channels on youtube, but there are a lot of youtube celebrities out there. Some have become full time youtube posters, making money from tshirt sales, sponsored ads and other ads.

I think if you check out all of this guys videos, you will realize he loves being in front of the camera, like so many people do. He has videos of himself riding a stationary bike for 7 minutes.. 

Some people will do whatever it takes to have a few minutes of fame, and if they get recognized a few times on the streets they feel it is all worth it. 

Making youtube videos is not rocket science, and it is also not for everybody. You are putting your whole personal life out there for people to see, and bring a lot of slack upon yourself no matter what you are selling. You have to take youtube videos for what they are, and that is entertainment. As many of his videos were very entertaining, but really not all that helpful. IMO of course.....


----------



## SprayCutAndRoll (Oct 12, 2013)

I think people should give the guy a break, lol.

He's posting videos so peoples' paint jobs will be easier, I actually find it cool how many videos he has posted.

I find he explains all he does extremely well, albeit somewhat awkward at times.

If you guys look at some of the jobs towards the end, they are pretty much flawless, as should be.

There's a video of him explaining all the steps he takes when painting a house, which his company has adopted as the best option for how he wants his company to run. It obviously works for him. Maybe not right for all, but it seems perfect for his needs.

The only thing I don't agree with is how he asks for donations when people ask questions in the comments, now that I find rude.


----------



## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

wje said:


> I don't know if you guys subscribe to many peoples channels on youtube, but there are a lot of youtube celebrities out there. Some have become full time youtube posters, making money from tshirt sales, sponsored ads and other ads.
> 
> I think if you check out all of this guys videos, you will realize he loves being in front of the camera, like so many people do. He has videos of himself riding a stationary bike for 7 minutes..
> 
> ...


Donation ungotzz.....


----------



## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Donation ungotzz.....


Means nothing in Italian. ..


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PressurePros said:


> Low price is not an indicator of value. Just wanted to clear up my stand on the issue of presenting value. You provide a high quality job, above-and-beyond customer service and an overall good experience (just based on my interpretation of what you have written). For the customers that are willing to pay for that level, you too provide value. Low price can in turn be a terrible value for the homeowner if all he got was low price, terrible customer service and a hack paint job.


I would consider myself a high value contractor for sure! I believe that to get the highest value, one should use the highest quality materials and practice the highest level of craftsmanship. I sell what I believe in, and I believe in what I sell. I was referring to a few of the posters here, who can still do a good job (albeit not quite as good : ) while still offering value to the HO. Not hack work, blow-n-goes. Just good fair priced, middle income, bang for the buck. I will occasionally do that, and did even more so after the economy tanked. However, I've found that if you always strive for excellence, then people who demand excellence will seek you out. People who seek that level of craftsmanship don't typically price shop (or they may even be suspicious of a low price, and choose the higher price contractor).


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I would consider myself a high value contractor for sure! I believe that to get the highest value, one should use the highest quality materials and practice the highest level of craftsmanship. I sell what I believe in, and I believe in what I sell. I was referring to a few of the posters here, who can still do a good job (albeit not quite as good : ) while still offering value to the HO. Not hack work, blow-n-goes. Just good fair priced, middle income, bang for the buck. I will occasionally do that, and did even more so after the economy tanked. However, I've found that if you always strive for excellence, then people who demand excellence will seek you out. People who seek that level of craftsmanship don't typically price shop (or they may even be suspicious of a low price, and choose the higher price contractor).


I agree with your thoughts on higher end customers. Let me redefine value again. Value has nothing to do with the price, the materials or the craftsmanship. (or lack thereof). That premise comes from fast food joints marketing the term value meal. Value is the mutually beneficial exchange of money for goods or services. The amounts or the services themselves are irrelevant. 

If you are the lowest price guy, your value is in that pricing. You have no choice but to skimp on customer service, materials and craftsmanship. The highest priced craftsman in the area is a good value because those that can afford him get better quality work, always get a hold of him when they have concerns and have a great experience from start to finish. Two different ends of the scale both representing value to different market segments.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

My clients are not comparing my bids to college pro. They're putting me up against a list of great companies we have around here. There are a few dozen businesses around here whose quality does not come into question, so basically comes down to price. I think what we have around here is just standard quality. Benjamin Moore + precision painting, and we got a bunch of firms offering it along with excellent customer service. So for me to tell the client I cost more than this other well known company because my quality is better is kind of a joke.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

SeaMonster said:


> My clients are not comparing my bids to college pro. They're putting me up against a list of great companies we have around here. There are a few dozen businesses around here whose quality does not come into question, so basically comes down to price. I think what we have around here is just standard quality. Benjamin Moore + precision painting, and we got a bunch of firms offering it along with excellent customer service. So for me to tell the client I cost more than this other well known company because my quality is better is kind of a joke.


If your dealing with price shoppers, then your lucky to be up against other quality companies. At least it gives you a fighting chance at being price competitive. I never bring up the competition during a sales presentation. I sell on my own merits. What the competition charges is largely irrelevant.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> If your dealing with price shoppers, then your lucky to be up against other quality companies. At least it gives you a fighting chance at being price competitive. I never bring up the competition during a sales presentation. I sell on my own merits. What the competition charges is largely irrelevant.


I just said no to 6 estimate requests. Neighborhood where we've done 7 exteriors and very profitable in the past 3 years. Just learned other painters are bidding much much higher! So I figured I walk away from the entire neighborhood since they're all talking about how much we charge, restrategize, and approach the other neighborhoods more cautiously. So I think it helps to know what others are doing. I could have charged the 7 in that neighborhood hundreds more each.....and they'd still say yes since they know us so well and the HOA is recommending us. 

BTW excel, are you one of the companies bidding on the pink victorian?


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

SeaMonster said:


> I just said no to 6 estimate requests. Neighborhood where we've done 7 exteriors and very profitable in the past 3 years. Just learned other painters are bidding much much higher! So I figured I walk away from the entire neighborhood since they're all talking about how much we charge, restrategize, and approach the other neighborhoods more cautiously. So I think it helps to know what others are doing. I could have charged the 7 in that neighborhood hundreds more each.....and they'd still say yes since they know us so well and the HOA is recommending us. BTW excel, are you one of the companies bidding on the pink victorian?


No, on the pink Victorian. I did a little interior project in your 'fence tread' neighborhood this winter though. I had to go peak over it when a car ran into a school bus while I was unloading the truck.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

lol just got the fence across the street from it. Got to get out of the fence business!!


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I would consider myself a high value contractor for sure! I believe that to get the highest value, one should use the highest quality materials and practice the highest level of craftsmanship. I sell what I believe in, and I believe in what I sell. I was referring to a few of the posters here, who can still do a good job (albeit not quite as good : ) while still offering value to the HO. Not hack work, blow-n-goes. Just good fair priced, middle income, bang for the buck. I will occasionally do that, and did even more so after the economy tanked. However, I've found that *if you always strive for excellence, then people who demand excellence will seek you out. People who seek that level of craftsmanship don't typically price shop* (or they may even be suspicious of a low price, and choose the higher price contractor).


That's been my experience.

'Value' means different things to different people.


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

SeaMonster said:


> I just said no to 6 estimate requests. Neighborhood where we've done 7 exteriors and very profitable in the past 3 years. Just learned other painters are bidding much much higher! So I figured I walk away from the entire neighborhood since they're all talking about how much we charge, restrategize, and approach the other neighborhoods more cautiously. So I think it helps to know what others are doing. I could have charged the 7 in that neighborhood hundreds more each.....and they'd still say yes since they know us so well and the HOA is recommending us.
> 
> BTW excel, are you one of the companies bidding on the pink victorian?


I must be a real dumb ass I don't understand this at all. You turned down 6 possible jobs that in your own words "were very profitable" because other painters were charging more. Not trying to be smart I just can't understand the reasoning behind this.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

That stopped me in my tracks as well. Why not just raise your prices?


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Toolnut said:


> I must be a real dumb ass I don't understand this at all. You turned down 6 possible jobs that in your own words "were very profitable" because other painters were charging more. Not trying to be smart I just can't understand the reasoning behind this.



I'm interested in this too. I think what he is saying is that I'm that particular neighborhood he had set a precedent on pricing that, while profitable, was still way low compared to the competition. So he felt like he was leaving money on the table. Rather than raise prices in that neighborhood where he had already set that precedent, he decided to start over in another area where he hadn't already done "cheap" work. 

That was my take anyway. Is that anywhere close?


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> That stopped me in my tracks as well. Why not just raise your prices?



I think I kinda understand. I've priced myself into a corner with certain groups of customers in the past as well. Once you set a precedent, it can be hard to raise prices much without being perceived as price gouging.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> That stopped me in my tracks as well. Why not just raise your prices?


I did! They started freaking out! "you've been charging this much, now you r charging ME this much?" 2 homeowners felt singles out. I felt I made the mistake of giving myself a reputation for being the guy who does a good job cheap. when subdivision neighbors start talking about your price its impossible to raise it


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> I think I kinda understand. I've priced myself into a corner with certain groups of customers in the past as well. Once you set a precedent, it can be hard to raise prices much without being perceived as price gouging.


Exactly! priced myself into a corner and could not get out. Of course if demand was not high at the moment I'd still take them.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SeaMonster said:


> I did! They started freaking out! "you've been charging this much, now you r charging ME this much?" 2 homeowners felt singles out. I felt I made the mistake of giving myself a reputation for being the guy who does a good job cheap. when subdivision neighbors start talking about your price its impossible to raise it












I think there are some other young guys on PT who might want to heed this advice.:whistling2:


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

SeaMonster said:


> Exactly! priced myself into a corner and could not get out. Of course if demand was not high at the moment I'd still take them.


"Priced" yourself into a corner??? Isn't there a metaphor more appropriate to PT that you could use?:jester:

But seriously, I get what you're having to do. We also needed to leave the market where we started out.


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm sorry but to walk away from 6 jobs that would be "very profitable" not cheap seems wrong. I could understand if the profit was marginal. I feel knowing what the other painters were charging cost you a lot of money, but if at my prices I'm profitable, I have a good rep. in the area, and am recommended by the HOA, to walk away and start in another place. What if someone comes to that neighbor hood and charges more? I don't know maybe I'm wrong or not looking at it right. 
I'm really not trying to argue but what if the other painters were charging less would you lower your prices?


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

SeaMonster said:


> I did! They started freaking out! "you've been charging this much, now you r charging ME this much?" 2 homeowners felt singles out. I felt I made the mistake of giving myself a reputation for being the guy who does a good job cheap. when subdivision neighbors start talking about your price its impossible to raise it


Not much you can do if they won't accept your new pricing.


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Toolnut said:


> I'm sorry but to walk away from 6 jobs that would be "very profitable" not cheap seems wrong. I could understand if the profit was marginal. I feel knowing what the other painters were charging cost you a lot of money, but if at my prices I'm profitable, I have a good rep. in the area, and am recommended by the HOA, to walk away and start in another place. What if someone comes to that neighbor hood and charges more? I don't know maybe I'm wrong or not looking at it right.
> I'm really not trying to argue but what if the other painters were charging less would you lower your prices?


Well of course I would not do it if I didn't have other neighborhoods where I did not make this mistake. "great company with prices right in the middle" is where I try to be.


----------



## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Not much you can do if they won't accept your new pricing.


True, but you can illustrate other life costs that have increased substantially in the 6-8 years since you last worked on their home.

I had similar experiences when growing.
We went above and beyond during the early years, likely at a too low price point, to build a clientele.

When those houses came around for repaints we'd already moved up several tiers in pricing with the result being quotes 2x the last project. Some continued to use us, some looked elsewhere, some I was happy to let go.

I would've quoted those jobs regardless as you could've landed a couple. If they're getting quotes from the outfits you mention working the 'hood (and you know they are) they'll quickly find out their options re: price and would probably rather spend that amount with a known entity: you.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

SeaMonster said:


> Exactly! priced myself into a corner and could not get out. Of course if demand was not high at the moment I'd still take them.


Of course you can get out. Your "prison" is one that only exists in your mentality. There is so much wrong with the way you are looking at things evidenced by these statements:
_
"I just said no to 6 estimate requests. Neighborhood where we've done 7 exteriors and very profitable in the past 3 years. Just learned other painters are bidding much much higher! So I figured I walk away from the entire neighborhood since they're all talking about how much we charge, restrategize, and approach the other neighborhoods more cautiously."_

Huh? 
1. You're established in the neighborhood. 
2. Other guys are charging more.

Do you realize that is the perfect scenario to raise prices and you say "no" to even giving bids? I'm just being candid with you.. That's absurd. You're hangup is worrying that someone thinks you are price gouging? Again.. huh? You said the other guys are charging more. That lets you walk into a bid and say, "I am less expensive and here are seven references from the neighborhood of the quality of work I perform." That's living the dream in estimating land. All the pieces of the puzzle are there and you walk away from 6 estimates. AND, you say you are busy.. PERFECT! Now you can give a higher bid and not worry about who accepts and who does not. 

I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to berate you but open your eyes to business. Never sell with your own wallet. My brain will often tell me, "that's too much, they will never accept that bid". You have to grow a set and put those thoughts aside. It is what it is.. things cost what they cost. Not sure how long you have been in business or where you stand with company size and future growth but you are proverbially painting yourself into a corner and its not necessary.


----------



## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Never sell with your own wallet.


this.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Well said Ken.

If I am getting a decent closing rate on my bids I never lie awake at night worrying that my prices may be too high. My customers might, but not me.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I totally agree with what you are saying Ken. Although, how would you respond to a HO who says, "why is my price $3k more than my neighbors house you painted last year"? Assuming there is no real significant difference in scope. Btw, thank you for sharing your sales skills with us here!!


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I totally agree with what you are saying Ken. Although, how would you respond to a HO who says, "why is my price $3k more than my neighbors house you painted last year"? Assuming there is no real significant difference in scope. Btw, thank you for sharing your sales skills with us here!!


Assuming the scope* is *similar, and the first job wasn't grossly underbid, I'm not sure why there should be a $3000 increase either. A modest one, sure, but that much? Is this just a hypothetical situation or did it actually occur?


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Purely hypothetical roll playing. Say it's a fancy neighborhood with newer, big 4-5k sq ft houses. You were bidding and completed several homes for $8-9k , and then found out the competition was more inline with $10-12k and closing deals.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I totally agree with what you are saying Ken. Although, how would you respond to a HO who says, "why is my price $3k more than my neighbors house you painted last year"? Assuming there is no real significant difference in scope. Btw, thank you for sharing your sales skills with us here!!


If the numbers are that far apart, he may hear grief. I would be candid..

I understand my pricing is higher than what I charged your neighbor. If I can be candid with you, I was trying to build up my portfolio being new to the neighborhood and was severely underpricing. I want to be in business 5 years from now to service you and hopefully your family and friends. To do that I have to make some profit and had to discontinue my earlier special rates. I do welcome you to get other bids and I think you will find that for the professional level of service and detail I gave to your neighbors, you will find my price is still on the lower end of the scale. 

Then you shut up. There is absolutely nothing lost because these people know the quality, they trust they will have a good experience and they will still be saving money. So if he would have closed 5 of those 6 leads before, he now closes 2 or 3. Now he is making money and that is what is needed to market to new neighborhoods, add employees and really go above and beyond on craftsmanship. Referrals from there will start being money makers. There is nothing wrong with firing old customers that aren't willing to pay current rates. . Its a part of business

I do understand and empathize with his dilemma. It is the inevitable result of every company that thinks low price is what sells. After awhile they realize what it really costs to run a business and do things to near perfection. Its a doomed model from Jump Street. A lot of guys do it in my business as well and at the end of the day all they are is.. busy.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Brilliant!


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Assuming You made money, not lost money, at the $3000 cheaper price Why would you need such a large increase? An increase, yes, labor and materials both went up. It seems like if you are doing say high end homes most of the owners will be business people and they understand an increase due to increases in labor and materials, but you need to keep these increases in line. If you try to go too much, too fast, you can hurt yourself because then they feel like you are trying to gouge them. 
I think we all walk a tightrope when it comes to bidding. I doubt there is anyone on here who has not got halfway thru a job and said to themselves "I should have bid more" or the other way "I overbid that job and could have got the contract." But my bidding would be based on my profit, not another painter price. Sometimes I'm higher sometimes i"m lower. I know how I came to my price, I have no idea how he came to his.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> Assuming You made money, not lost money, at the $3000 cheaper price Why would you need such a large increase? An increase, yes, labor and materials both went up. It seems like if you are doing say high end homes most of the owners will be business people and they understand an increase due to increases in labor and materials, but you need to keep these increases in line. If you try to go too much, too fast, you can hurt yourself because then they feel like you are trying to gouge them.
> I think we all walk a tightrope when it comes to bidding. I doubt there is anyone on here who has not got halfway thru a job and said to themselves "I should have bid more" or the other way "I overbid that job and could have got the contract." But my bidding would be based on my profit, not another painter price. Sometimes I'm higher sometimes i"m lower. I know how I came to my price, I have no idea how he came to his.



You left out my personal favorite, " I bid this one way high but still got it."


----------



## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> If the numbers are that far apart, he may hear grief. I would be candid..
> 
> I understand my pricing is higher than what I charged your neighbor. If I can be candid with you, I was trying to build up my portfolio being new to the neighborhood and was severely underpricing. I want to be in business 5 years from now to service you and hopefully your family and friends. To do that I have to make some profit and had to discontinue my earlier special rates. I do welcome you to get other bids and I think you will find that for the professional level of service and detail I gave to your neighbors, you will find my price is still on the lower end of the scale.
> 
> ...


You are also not fully understanding the situation which is fine it's a forum so thats how it goes. Somehow all conversations here end with people braggin about their experience, or arguing over the very basics of the actual painting process. Lets just go back to talking about the idaho painter. $1 sqft, whats with that!


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

SeaMonster said:


> You are also not fully understanding the situation which is fine it's a forum so thats how it goes. Somehow all conversations here end with people braggin about their experience, or arguing over the very basics of the actual painting process. Lets just go back to talking about the idaho painter. $1 sqft, whats with that!


I did quote you for accuracy and read every post you made. I thought I had the gist of what you were saying but I don't want to misinterpret you either. Several others were perplexed by your posts as well. 

There is no bragging going on in my post that you quoted. Excel asked me a direct question that I answered. If I was bragging I would tell you I have 25 years of sales experience, worked as a corporate sales trainer, have done thousands of in home presentations and owned businesses since I was 17 years old. :whistling2:


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

SeaMonster said:


> You are also not fully understanding the situation which is fine it's a forum so thats how it goes. Somehow all conversations here end with people braggin about their experience, or arguing over the very basics of the actual painting process. Lets just go back to talking about the idaho painter. $1 sqft, whats with that!


That's not what I've perceived of this forum in the brief time I've been here.

You have to keep an open mind and not be sensitive to differing opinions.:yes:


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

in a country of over 300 million all with varying degrees of wealth it would seem pointless to focus on raising your prices .....right? 

your rate comes with variables....your skill set does not but greatly affects your rate. as RH would say ''There's a lesson somewhere in there''


----------



## Paintinglife (Sep 13, 2012)

*Cost of painting a house.*

It's a fair but ambiguous question. What's the substrate? How high are the walls? how much trim? Doors? Fascia soffit? How long do you want before you repaint, 5, 7 10yrs? Any repair issues? Any complications?

Get no less than three bids (unless mine is one:thumbsup. Call the manufacture to verify that the quoted "process" is correct. Ask if they have experience with the contractor. Compare products, paint price is wildly varied based on quality. Will the contractor be on site?

Every contractor has a different price and process. Some brush and roll (LABOR INTENSIVE), some spray only (good for economical repaint), others spray and roll (preferred method by manufactures). The end goal is to make sure that the paint is applied to meet the manufactures millage requirements.

I use the spray and back roll method. After pressure washing and sealing the home it is caulked and patched, then painted. This method provides an even film build and is actually cleaner and more even than brush and rolling.

To answer your question, the typical 2,200sq/ft exterior (stucco or block, body only) with 8' walls would start at apx $1,650 with 7yr life of paint and go up to $1,975 for a 10yr product. And should take 2 days with only one person, weather permitting.

Get references and proof of insurance as well.

PS: Interiors cost more than exteriors most of the time unless it's a wood structure.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paintinglife said:


> It's a fair but ambiguous question. What's the substrate? How high are the walls? how much trim? Doors? Fascia soffit? How long do you want before you repaint, 5, 7 10yrs? Any repair issues? Any complications?
> 
> Get no less than three bids (unless mine is one:thumbsup. Call the manufacture to verify that the quoted "process" is correct. Ask if they have experience with the contractor. Compare products, paint price is wildly varied based on quality. Will the contractor be on site?
> 
> ...


Be prepared for a bit of "discussion" concerning this time frame.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

2 days with a HELPER.........er, i mean ''associate''


----------



## Paintinglife (Sep 13, 2012)

*Time frame.*

A 2,200 sq/ft stucco or block home, after pressure washed, can be done by one person in two days. Masked, sealed, caulked & patched then painted if it's 8' walls with no fascia and soffit. 

I do it myself because I'm good, but I've hired others that are way better. They make me sickly jealous so I won't give them a shout out, lol.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paintinglife said:


> A 2,200 sq/ft stucco or block home, after pressure washed, can be done by one person in two days. Masked, sealed, caulked & patched then painted if it's 8' walls with no fascia and soffit.
> 
> I do it myself because I'm good, but I've hired others that are way better. They make me sickly jealous so I won't give them a shout out, lol.


Thanks for the clarification- that makes sense.


----------



## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

Paintinglife said:


> A 2,200 sq/ft stucco or block home, after pressure washed, can be done by one person in two days. Masked, sealed, caulked & patched then painted if it's 8' walls with no fascia and soffit.
> 
> I do it myself because I'm good, but I've hired others that are way better. They make me sickly jealous so I won't give them a shout out, lol.


Your good: jester


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Your good: jester


Yeah but his guys are better than him


----------



## House painterz (Jul 30, 2014)

*Not a chance*

Way too low even in Canada..lol


----------



## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

$2200 to paint a 2200 square foot house.  With paint? Ceilings? Trim? Prep? You have to be joking me. I wouldn't touch that with a 12 foot extension pole. :no:


----------



## Paint Pro CA (Jun 17, 2014)

House painterz said:


> Way too low even in Canada..lol


What do you mean "Even in Canada?". We have some of the most valuable real estate prices in North America here and our economy and construction market is booming. Contractors charge big time bucks here. Adjust your prices and join the party. :whistling2:


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

*Are you kidding????*

Really, I make a simple video and put one basic number in it and all these assumptions and this long conversation is created over that???? Really???? Its very unfortunate that there are so many judgmental people and painters out there. I have made this channel for you. To help you. Here is a fact. I painted 5 exteriors a week since march 1st with a 6 man crew. Fact, I work right along with my crew. All jobs were by referral and every customer was extremely happy and every paint job was done with Sherwin Williams Superpaint and 950a caulking. Hardly cheap stuff. If you watch my videos and look at my webpage you will realize I am a man of high moral character and integrity. I don't cut corners nor does my crew. Another fact is my crew is the highest paid crew in Idaho. Another fact. I've already booked jobs for the spring of 2015. Hardly a testament of an "amateur painter at best" nor one of one who cuts corners. Well hope you all enjoy the rest of my videos as much as you enjoyed this one. Best of wishes and hope your businesses do well.


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Check out my channel and webpage out at www.idahopainter.com YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/idahopainters


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

idahopainter said:


> Really, I make a simple video and put one basic number in it and all these assumptions and this long conversation is created over that???? Really???? Its very unfortunate that there are so many judgmental people and painters out there. I have made this channel for you. To help you. Here is a fact. I painted 5 exteriors a week since march 1st with a 6 man crew. Fact, I work right along with my crew. All jobs were by referral and every customer was extremely happy and every paint job was done with Sherwin Williams Superpaint and 950a caulking. Hardly cheap stuff. If you watch my videos and look at my webpage you will realize I am a man of high moral character and integrity. I don't cut corners nor does my crew. Another fact is my crew is the highest paid crew in Idaho. Another fact. I've already booked jobs for the spring of 2015. Hardly a testament of an "amateur painter at best" nor one of one who cuts corners. Well hope you all enjoy the rest of my videos as much as you enjoyed this one. Best of wishes and hope your businesses do well.


Okay, let's be honest here. If your actually doing what you should be doing on an exterior it should take you more than a day.

We all cut corners. But I don't care how big your crew is getting a house done in a day your missing something, always.

I've seen a lot of your videos and learned a lot. A lot of how not to do things. Take that extension wand off of your spray man's gun, and tell him to hold it perpendicular to the substrate; he's arcing like crazy and not getting an even finish.

If you really want to know how to paint join the local union, don't show them your videos though, otherwise you'll get laughed out of the hall.

Also, I have 4 exteriors booked for next summer, but my referrals come from quality, not 'speed' and probably being the cheap price. There are a few in and out in a day painting companies in my area, and we call them splash and dashers for a reason.....cause they can't paint with quality or precision.


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

*$1 a sqft its that simple*

Yep its that simple. That's where I start. Is there extras?????? Well you would assume so right?????? I have not made a video yet on that subject. That is that important part of making money at this business. Its called up selling. I don't want to give out all my secrets so fast. I'm not stupid, I have 9 years of college education. Hopefully this answers some of the myths and mysteries of how I could do it that cheap. Keep this thread rolling guys.http://www.painttalk.com/images/smilies/whistling2.gif


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

*Come on guys REALLY????*

I said I paint it in a day. Well me and my crew. My awesome crew. I did not say I power wash it, prep it, and paint it in a day. Gosh dudes really. Don't be so quick to pass judgement and want to hate. I PAINT IT IN A DAY. How I power wash, prep, and paint 5 houses in a week is another good question. I am motivated, educated, have the best crew in the US, understand management, give my employees incentives, and more. If you question any of that why don't you just call ten random customers of mine and ask them what they think. Go ahead it all public information. I'm not A+ certified for 13 years with the Better Business Bureau for nothing.


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Unions still exist??????? Really????????????????


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

An exterior in a day?

Something seems fishy. 

But, I'm not going to spend any time on this...


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm glad you admit you cut corners. Hope your customers see this. I am glad to say me and my crew do not. Quality and satisfaction guaranteed and customer service surpassed by none. That is what we do. Me nor my crew cut corners. Cutting corners would leave one to question your honesty and integrity. Not what I want for my business. Its easy to slash and bash someone else's work or how I spray in my videos. I would not expect anything more. I would hope you could get to the point someday of encouraging fellow painters an pointing out the things they are doing correct and being happy in their successes. If you think I am so bad and have nothing to offer you could just happily not watch my videos. Being laughed out of your union hall does not define me. Im not going to be ashamed for trying to help. Im sure there is someone good in that hall that understands that I Chris am just offering help to DIYers and fellow painters free of charge and with a good heart.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

idahopainter said:


> Really, I make a simple video and put one basic number in it and all these assumptions and this long conversation is created over that???? Really???? Its very unfortunate that there are so many judgmental people and painters out there. I have made this channel for you. To help you. Here is a fact. I painted 5 exteriors a week since march 1st with a 6 man crew. Fact, I work right along with my crew. All jobs were by referral and every customer was extremely happy and every paint job was done with Sherwin Williams Superpaint and 950a caulking. Hardly cheap stuff. If you watch my videos and look at my webpage you will realize I am a man of high moral character and integrity. I don't cut corners nor does my crew. Another fact is my crew is the highest paid crew in Idaho. Another fact. I've already booked jobs for the spring of 2015. Hardly a testament of an "amateur painter at best" nor one of one who cuts corners. Well hope you all enjoy the rest of my videos as much as you enjoyed this one. Best of wishes and hope your businesses do well.


 
Idaho is a pretty big state and that is a pretty bold statement. Just post the facts, Jack


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

idahopainter said:


> Check out my channel and webpage out at www.idahopainter.com YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/idahopainters


 
Why does this guy remind me of JP? Of course JP had a little more tact and wasn't so braggadocio......


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

On a 2,200 sqft home I know we could spray the claps/siding in a day 2 coats. Trim maybe hit some.

As for $1.00 a sqft even the cheap arse house flippers paid way more than that. I wouldn't get off my arse for that kind of money. The only time we did charge near there was for another painter who ran into a jam and needed us to just spray the house, no prep, trim and siding same color. Carly and I did 2 coats in a day (2,300 sqft). Our sprayer also helps with 2 guns running.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Idaho is a pretty big state and that is a pretty bold statement. Just post the facts, Jack


I had to wonder that myself. I don't recall anyone even asking us.


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

idahopainter said:


> I said I paint it in a day. Well me and my crew. My awesome crew. I did not say I power wash it, prep it, and paint it in a day. Gosh dudes really. Don't be so quick to pass judgement and want to hate. I PAINT IT IN A DAY. How I power wash, prep, and paint 5 houses in a week is another good question. I am motivated, educated, have the best crew in the US, understand management, give my employees incentives, and more. If you question any of that why don't you just call ten random customers of mine and ask them what they think. Go ahead it all public information. I'm not A+ certified for 13 years with the Better Business Bureau for nothing.


Guys, get off the guys ass!! Yes a house can be painted in a day without cutting corners. Powerwash a couple days before. Hit the house very early having men prep the house, if there is alot of scraping that is another day and extra, but normal caulking stucco patch, wood fill, etc is easy stuff for a few guys to do. The other guys are masking windows laying drops etc. The spray man starts on the body, when the paint is dry, one hour, next spray man start spraying eaves, then the trim guys start after that. Usually its not an eight hour day, more like 10-12 but still one day. That is for a really big house!! A 2200 sq footer would take like 2-3 hours for a good spray man to knock out with the other guys working behind him. 

When I was with SW, one of my best customers used this exact model and painted a house a day, all referral, and was always booked weeks in advance. And when I say weeks, ten jobs out was his norm. Its not for everybody, and sounds like most on here including myself would have a tough time managing the speed, but it does work. And $2200 for the house, yea I'm sure this guy will not end up doing it for that, more like $4-5k and profit 2k for the day. Not a bad haul!!


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

*Facts only my friend.*

The facts are exactly what I posted. And it is also a fact that Idaho is not a very large state. Idaho, 8,485 sq mi. 2010 resident census population (rank): 1,567,582 now compare that to LA county. A county in California. The county is now estimated at 10,019,365 people as of July 1, according to California Department of Finance data released Thursday. An you say I live in a large state????? Really???? Did you notice the numbers and what they say? They say there is only 1.5 million people in my WHOLE state. Not even a quarter the size of a county is our state. Just stick to the facts Jack. Not hard to figure out if you are paying your employees over the top of the pay scale as a painter.http://www.painttalk.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

It's the model itself that makes painters look like thieving a$$e$. 

Oh, you want me to scrap that wood? That's an extra.
Oh, you want to change the colour? That's an extra.
Oh, you want 3 colours and not 2? That's an extra.
Oh, you want me to prime that before I paint? That's an extra.

If you have the man power to put 10 guys on a house go nuts, but then your also going to have to have one guy walking around doing constant micro managing, and quality control.

Plus wouldn't a home owner be concerned if you were done in a day? Even with 10-12 guys


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Idaho Occupational Employment & Wage Survey 2014. Yeah they actually did ask you. It exists. As an employer I am familiar with it along with the Davis Bacon act. You should make yourself aware if it also.


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Wow your way to funny. Thats how I do it Journey Man?????? Thats my model???? So you have seen my estimates and have been there when I meet with the customer to discuss the job???? Dude, are you for real???? Here is another fact, my estimates are over 20 pages long. Every estimate. What do you think it includes? How long is yours 1 scribbled page? Why don't you contact 10 random customers of mine and asked if they have been thieved? Really, if that's my reputation how did a thief paint 5 houses a week by referral? Do thieves really get referred that much? Do theives have A+ ratings with the better business bureau, do thieves have 5 star ratings with Yelp, do thieves have 4.9 star ratings with Google +, the thieves have 4.7 star ratings with Facebook? Later the Idaho Painter.


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Do you need to know how your wages compare to others in the same occupation or other similar occupations? Answer these questions with this year's occupational employment and wage survey from the Idaho Department of Labor. View and Download 2014 Survey Tables (updated 7/21/2014).


----------



## idahopainter (Oct 22, 2014)

Well did you check it out? Posted not to brag but just so you can see who I am before you become so judgmental and nasty. Wasn't trying to be tactful just straight forward and giving you the links.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

idahopainter said:


> Well did you check it out? Posted not to brag but just so you can see who I am before you become so judgmental and nasty. Wasn't trying to be tactful just straight forward and giving you the links.


Hey man, I have nothing against you. I think your claims of having the best painters in the State might have soured an otherwise delightful conversation. Further, there is no easy way to prove your assertion. 

Perhaps you will stick around, find some threads to participate in where you don't need to feel defensive, laugh and cry, heck, maybe you can even learn something, although besides the cardboard wall patch, I can't think of much I've learned...


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

And this guy does(or tries) to do the same thing.

http://www.northstars-painting.com

We obviously work for a different clientele. You make your money doing what you do(I'm sure you have satisfied customers, and I'm sure your a nice guy). The clientele that I service wouldn't appreciate that. In fact some of my customers won't even let us bring employees on site, just me and the other owner.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Chris" IdahoPainter" :

I Like Your videos,

I can also appreciate the amount of effort that goes into making a video, some here are quick to judge, but they have nothing to back it up by.

Don't take it personally, You certainly do not need to justify your business to this forum, it is wasted energy trying to get others to understand what works for you.

Keep on doing what your doing...


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Wow, forum is angry today...


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Nothing wrong with saying you do good work or your painters are skilled. However, to boast about being, "better than", countless skilled painters, most of whom you've never met, invalidates all previous claims. That's all I have to say about that. 


Stelzer Painting Inc.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

It seems a lot of this back and forth is based on "painting a house in a day," with one guy being literal, as in the PAINTING part is done in a day, and the other guy assuming that it meant all the steps in painting a house in one day. We have all seen what the latter looks like...


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

idahopainter said:


> Do you need to know how your wages compare to others in the same occupation or other similar occupations? Answer these questions with this year's occupational employment and wage survey from the Idaho Department of Labor. View and Download 2014 Survey Tables (updated 7/21/2014).


Thanks. Interesting, our stating wage for a inexperienced helper is above the "high" number for the middle range.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Hahaha, my wife called us a bunch of old bickering women


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Hahaha, my wife called us a bunch of old bickering women


So she's the one who knows how much it costs to paint a house? Why didn't she say anything earlier? Could have saved a boatload of bickering.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

journeymanPainter said:


> Hahaha, my wife called us a bunch of old bickering women


 
Sig Line of the Day!:thumbup:

........and more often than not, your wife is probably right when it comes to this place.:yes:


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

idahopainter said:


> Wow your way to funny. Thats how I do it Journey Man?????? Thats my model???? So you have seen my estimates and have been there when I meet with the customer to discuss the job???? Dude, are you for real???? Here is another fact, my estimates are over 20 pages long. Every estimate. What do you think it includes? How long is yours 1 scribbled page? Why don't you contact 10 random customers of mine and asked if they have been thieved? Really, if that's my reputation how did a thief paint 5 houses a week by referral? Do thieves really get referred that much? Do theives have A+ ratings with the better business bureau, do thieves have 5 star ratings with Yelp, do thieves have 4.9 star ratings with Google +, the thieves have 4.7 star ratings with Facebook? Later the Idaho Painter.


wow


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

idahopainter said:


> The facts are exactly what I posted. And it is also a fact that Idaho is not a very large state. Idaho, 8,485 sq mi. 2010 resident census population (rank): 1,567,582 now compare that to LA county. A county in California. The county is now estimated at 10,019,365 people as of July 1, according to California Department of Finance data released Thursday. An you say I live in a large state????? Really???? Did you notice the numbers and what they say? They say there is only 1.5 million people in my WHOLE state. Not even a quarter the size of a county is our state. Just stick to the facts Jack. Not hard to figure out if you are paying your employees over the top of the pay scale as a painter.http://www.painttalk.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


I am not paying my painters a damn thing:whistling2:


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

chrisn said:


> wow


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I lost a nice job to a company who had a large estimate. After taking a close look at it, it talked mainly about what they aren't responsible for, and that the customer only get 8 hrs of touch ups.

Now, I know different company, different scope of work, etc


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Hahaha, my wife called us a bunch of old bickering women


Who's she calling "old"?


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

RH said:


> Who's she calling "old"?


She specifically mentioned you to RH


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

idahopainter said:


> The facts are exactly what I posted. And it is also a fact that Idaho is not a very large state. Idaho, 8,485 sq mi. 2010 resident census population (rank): 1,567,582 now compare that to LA county. A county in California. The county is now estimated at 10,019,365 people as of July 1, according to California Department of Finance data released Thursday. An you say I live in a large state????? Really???? Did you notice the numbers and what they say? They say there is only 1.5 million people in my WHOLE state. Not even a quarter the size of a county is our state. Just stick to the facts Jack. Not hard to figure out if you are paying your employees over the top of the pay scale as a painter.http://www.painttalk.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


I think he may have been referring to your "fact" about your painters being the highest paid in the state...and wondering how you could know that. Do you know the wages of all the other painters?

Idaho may be bigger than you think. Your number for the area is off by a factor of ten! There are some differing values, but they're all about 83,500 square mikes. Just stick to the facts, indeed.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

No here
P.t. Barnum
Lol


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Oden said:


> No here
> P.t. Barnum
> Lol


Oden, this seems to have become your stock answer lately. Would you card to elaborate?


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

idahopainter said:


> Yep its that simple. That's where I start. Is there extras?????? Well you would assume so right?????? I have not made a video yet on that subject. That is that important part of making money at this business. Its called up selling. I don't want to give out all my secrets so fast. I'm not stupid, I have 9 years of college education. Hopefully this answers some of the myths and mysteries of how I could do it that cheap. Keep this thread rolling guys.http://www.painttalk.com/images/smilies/whistling2.gif


That pretty much confirms my assertion from my earlier posts in this thread, stating that painting an exterior for $1/ft is BS. I always figured it was a "foot in the door" approach to selling. I also stand by the idea that stating such price points can have confusing effects on homeowners expectations, especially in other markets. For the record, I never personally attacked you, or said that my crew was better than yours. I'm sure you're capable of success with your systems. However; to seriously say that you have the best, highest paid crew, is both arrogant and ignorant. Either you say those things in jest, or you don't know many other painters, especially outside of your "small" state.


----------



## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

It's funny I can't stand to go in Low and charge extra for every little thing. 

I like to get enough money the first time around that if I get asked to do something really minor I can just do it. IMHO that goes a long way with people 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

http://www.evancarmichael.com/Famou...-2-Promotion-is-Your-Companys-Best-Punch.html


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Painter-Aaron said:


> It's funny I can't stand to go in Low and charge extra for every little thing.
> 
> I like to get enough money the first time around that if I get asked to do something really minor I can just do it. IMHO that goes a long way with people
> 
> ...


That's exactly how our business model is set up. My partner got us a job for a new custom home painter. We went in lower than we normally would so we could prove ourselves. We kept that model through the entire job. When extras came up, we charged him our wage. Now that the job is done he says to us, you are the only guys I'm going to use, and I hope you charge more than that on the next one. He's also introduced us to 2 of his buddies who are home builders as well. 

He was telling us that his last painter would charge 30% for the job, but nickel and dime for every little thing and extra.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Some times I have a hard enough time pricing let alone giving a bottom barrel bid just for painting then adding the extras. Like others I prefer to bid it right the first time. 

Also around here if you give a price to just paint then slam the HO's with all the extras we would not survive at all. Word of mouth spreads like wild fire around here. So easy to go out of business doing crap like the OP.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> Some times I have a hard enough time pricing let alone giving a bottom barrel bid just for painting then adding the extras. Like others I prefer to bid it right the first time.
> 
> Also around here if you give a price to just paint then slam the HO's with all the extras we would not survive at all. Word of mouth spreads like wild fire around here. So easy to go out of business doing crap like the OP.


A lot of people forget that this describes the classic "lowballer" approach. It's the notion that you can bid the original job at a loss and make it up in change orders. And I totally agree, CD, that the word gets around that a company pulls this kind of nonsense. The only way to get away with it is to work farther and farther afield.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Gough said:


> A lot of people forget that this describes the classic "lowballer" approach. It's the notion that you can bid the original job at a loss and make it up in change orders. And I totally agree, CD, that the word gets around that a company pulls this kind of nonsense. The only way to get away with it is to work farther and farther afield.


I think your getting out of line Gough, you along with others are picking at this guy like a vulture. 

This guy wouldn't have good online reviews, doing videos, a website showing his work, thriving forward if "your word on the street low ball theory was true"

Thats a common problem here on painttalk, people like to pounce on others because their ignorance can't see past what is working for others success in this market.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

really...


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As a happy employee, I hope everyone is successful and at their best! I'm Dahli Lamish like that. Peace, love, and prosperity to all!


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

My take on this is: he's not coming in at a lowball price, then profiting from change orders. I think he states the lowball ($1/ft) price in the videos, to get his "foot in the door". Then during the sales presentation he explains that $1/ft is a base line and if you want your doors, windows, gutters, etc, etc, whatever else included, then it's going to be extra $$$. Then he presents a very detailed contract with the correct $$$ amount and scope. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that and actually think it's descent marketing. My only problem with it is that for all the homeowners in other markets, that don't have the benefit of listening to his presentation, are going to think that $1/ft is the going rate, which is misleading.


----------



## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Sucks when you're talking about someone and they freakin' show up


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> My take on this is: he's not coming in at a lowball price, then profiting from change orders. I think he states the lowball ($1/ft) price in the videos, to get his "foot in the door". Then during the sales presentation he explains that $1/ft is a base line and if you want your doors, windows, gutters, etc, etc, whatever else included, then it's going to be extra $$$. Then he presents a very detailed contract with the correct $$$ amount and scope. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that and actually think it's descent marketing. My only problem with it is that for all the homeowners in other markets, that don't have the benefit of listening to his presentation, are going to think that $1/ft is the going rate, which is misleading.


I had the very same interpretation. And, once again, with geographical differences comes different pricing. I take it that most on here can't survive at $1 a square foot for exteriors. For perspective, here in Lake County, Fl, I get underbid more often than not when bidding exteriors (residential) at this price (labor). I can get this and more with high end customers, but usually not for the average homeowner. Yes, it stinks, but that seems to be the nature of the beast where I'm at.


----------



## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Wow an entire post filled with assumptions. Give the guy a break already. Makes me wonder why there are only a handful of painters that make comments on PT. Why bother cause all they get is grief.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

[

Remember the video of the guy painting a door super fast with a 15mill microfibre? That was fun.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

premierpainter said:


> Wow an entire post filled with assumptions. Give the guy a break already. Makes me wonder why there are only a handful of painters that make comments on PT. Why bother cause all they get is grief.


Yup, its pretty sad sometimes.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

The Idaho Painter has a Youtube channel with 17,067 subscribers and 312 videos. That say's a lot as far as I am concerned.

Chris, I apologize for some of the guys negative and judgmental comments regarding you, your skills and painting business. In my eyes, you are a top notch pro, and I've been painting over 30+ years. 

In the near future, please come back and participate in some painting discussion. They can use some new blood in these parts. 

Thanks!


----------



## SprayCutAndRoll (Oct 12, 2013)

premierpainter said:


> Wow an entire post filled with assumptions. Give the guy a break already. Makes me wonder why there are only a handful of painters that make comments on PT. Why bother cause all they get is grief.


This is why I don’t like posting on PT too much.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

matt19422 said:


> I think your getting out of line Gough, you along with others are picking at this guy like a vulture.
> 
> This guy wouldn't have good online reviews, doing videos, a website showing his work, thriving forward if "your word on the street low ball theory was true"
> 
> Thats a common problem here on painttalk, people like to pounce on others because their ignorance can't see past what is working for others success in this market.


Matt, sorry if you had the impression that I was referring to idahopainter, I wasn't. I was replying to CD's comment about the general practice of lowballing.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> My take on this is: he's not coming in at a lowball price, then profiting from change orders. I think he states the lowball ($1/ft) price in the videos, to get his "foot in the door". Then during the sales presentation he explains that $1/ft is a base line and if you want your doors, windows, gutters, etc, etc, whatever else included, then it's going to be extra $$$. Then he presents a very detailed contract with the correct $$$ amount and scope. I don't believe there is anything wrong with that and actually think it's descent marketing. My only problem with it is that for all the homeowners in other markets, that don't have the benefit of listening to his presentation, are going to think that $1/ft is the going rate, which is misleading.


A very general question, not related to a particular company or individual: is there a line between up-selling and bait-and-switch? If so, where is it?


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> A very general question, not related to a particular company or individual: is there a line between up-selling and bait-and-switch? If so, where is it?


IMO, there is a huge difference. Related to painting, bait and switch would be promising to deliver something far better than what is actually performed. I would consider such practice to be very poor business and lacking in character. Up selling is adding services, or offering higher quality materials that increase the price of the project legitimately.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> IMO, there is a huge difference. Related to painting, bait and switch would be promising to deliver something far better than what is actually performed. I would consider such practice to be very poor business and lacking in character. Up selling is adding services, or offering higher quality materials that increase the price of the project legitimately.


EP, I was under a different impression. I thought it could mean either delivering an inferior product/service. OR, more commonly, convincing a buyer/client to purchase a more expensive version.

Here's Wikipedia's main definition: "Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud used in retail sales but also employed in other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by merchants' advertising products or services at a low price, but when customers visit the store, they discover that the advertised goods are not available, or the customers are pressured by sales people to consider similar, but higher priced items ("switching")."


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> EP, I was under a different impression. I thought it could mean either delivering an inferior product/service. OR, more commonly, convincing a buyer/client to purchase a more expensive version. Here's Wikipedia's main definition: "Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud used in retail sales but also employed in other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by merchants' advertising products or services at a low price, but when customers visit the store, they discover that the advertised goods are not available, or the customers are pressured by sales people to consider similar, but higher priced items ("switching")."


Wikipedia defines up selling: Upselling (sometimes "up-selling") is a sales technique whereby a seller induces the customer to purchase more expensive items, upgrades, or other add-ons in an attempt to make a more profitable sale. Upselling[1] usually involves marketing more profitable services or products but can be simply exposing the customer to other options that were perhaps not considered. I would conclude that as long as you do indeed offer the lower priced option, then it's up selling.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Wikipedia defines up selling: Upselling (sometimes "up-selling") is a sales technique whereby a seller induces the customer to purchase more expensive items, upgrades, or other add-ons in an attempt to make a more profitable sale. Upselling[1] usually involves marketing more profitable services or products but can be simply exposing the customer to other options that were perhaps not considered. I would conclude that as long as you do indeed offer the lower priced option, then it's up selling.


Thanks. Where it seems venture into a gray area might be the amount of pressure to upgrade, or failure to fully disclose items not included in the original offer.

Like a lot of what we do, this seems like a balancing act. I've talked to a lot of clients over the years who had experiences with aggressive up selling that felt to them like bait and switch. A classic example, "Certainly we could use BrandX paint for that price, but are you going to be happy with that?"

EDIT: a quick perusal of the intertubes points out a substantial difference between bait and switch as legal fraud and how it's perceived by clients. While it may not be legally actionable, heavy-handed upselling can be off putting to clients.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Wikipedia defines up selling: Upselling (sometimes "up-selling") is a sales technique whereby a seller induces the customer to purchase more expensive items, upgrades, or other add-ons in an attempt to make a more profitable sale. Upselling[1] usually involves marketing more profitable services or products but can be simply exposing the customer to other options that were perhaps not considered. I would conclude that as long as you do indeed offer the lower priced option, then it's up selling.


Here's a flip side, "down selling". After reading more about it, I realized that it's the approach we use most widely.

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/marketing/sales/14722-20100521-what-is-down-selling.html#


----------



## Seattlepainting (Jun 8, 2010)

I just watched two videos from Idaho Painter.

From a video perspective I give a thumbs up; and I understand the form and challenges better than 99% of this forum. He will keep making them and get better.

From one painting contractor to another I give another thumbs up. Actualizing your opinions about anything subjective like art, or paint application methods opens to ridicule. But this man dies not really need to impress this forum; his conversion are the good people of Idaho no?














?


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Seattlepainting said:


> I just watched two videos from Idaho Painter.
> 
> From a video perspective I give a thumbs up; and I understand the form and challenges better than 99% of this forum. He will keep making them and get better.
> 
> ...


word


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Seattlepainting said:


> I just watched two videos from Idaho Painter.
> 
> From a video perspective I give a thumbs up; and I understand the form and challenges better than 99% of this forum. He will keep making them and get better.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Not Idaho...Southern Idaho. That's different, in so many ways.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Seattlepainting said:


> I just watched two videos from Idaho Painter.
> 
> From a video perspective I give a thumbs up; and I understand the form and challenges better than 99% of this forum. He will keep making them and get better.
> 
> ...


I think what it comes down to is a lack of quality. I'm not saying that the product he puts out won't last but if your blowing a house out a day your quality control is going to take a hit. 

Also watch him or his guys spraying, then watch a video ridisize posted of himself spraying a door, then tell me who the more controlled sprayer is.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

*Dare to paint this in one day!*

With all do respect, I am not judging anyone just trying to see if it is possible!
This house is about 1800 SQ very dry 2 different shingle siding, back side has not been painted for a long time.
Can you explain to me how can you painted it in one day?
We scrap and sand first, then we power wash, full coat of tinted oil primer sprayed and back brushed, full coat of waterborne solid stain sprayed and back brushed.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> With all do respect, I am not judging anyone just trying to see if it is possible!
> This house is about 1800 SQ very dry 2 different shingle siding, back side has not been painted for a long time.
> Can you explain to me how can you painted it in one day?


PAINTING it in one day is easy, it's the PROPER PREPARATION that would extend it to . . . what ? A day and a half :whistling2:


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> With all do respect, I am not judging anyone just trying to see if it is possible!
> This house is about 1800 SQ very dry 2 different shingle siding, back side has not been painted for a long time.
> Can you explain to me how can you painted it in one day?
> We scrap and sand first, then we power wash, full coat of tinted oil primer sprayed and back brushed, full coat of waterborne solid stain sprayed and back brushed.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYVpd5EjDCc


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

PRC said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYVpd5EjDCc


Yeah! good luck with that :sailor:


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Yeah! good luck with that :sailor:


There was a old wagner commercial that had a HO standing in front of his house with sprayer. He makes one pass the whole front of his house was painted. Trim and body different color, one pass, no masking, no mess. Lol


----------



## sdoran (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm pretty sure he just means that he sprays them in one day... I know that he pressure washes them a couple days before he gets to them. I have also noticed that most of the houses in his videos seem to be in pretty good shape. I'm sure if he has a house in bad condition, it's going to take more than a day. But mostly it seems they need minimal prepping and the prepping that I've seen him do, he does it well and thoroughly. He also has a crew of 5 guys I think with him on one house at a time... So 5 guys, house in pretty good shape, spot scraping and priming, masking, I don't see how a good crew couldn't tackle it in a good hard working 12 hour day.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

sdoran said:


> I'm pretty sure he just means that he sprays them in one day... I know that he pressure washes them a couple days before he gets to them. I have also noticed that most of the houses in his videos seem to be in pretty good shape. I'm sure if he has a house in bad condition, it's going to take more than a day. But mostly it seems they need minimal prepping and the prepping that I've seen him do, he does it well and thoroughly. He also has a crew of 5 guys I think with him on one house at a time... So 5 guys, house in pretty good shape, spot scraping and priming, masking, I don't see how a good crew couldn't tackle it in a good hard working 12 hour day.


sdoran!
Please understand that I am not putting this guy down, I am sure he does what he think is right everyone have different strategy, for me i can paint the siding of his house by my self in one day it's small house but I still have to wait for my oil primer do dry need at least 12 hours before I i do my finish coat, I live in New England and trust me if you don't take it step by step the first freeze you will get a phone call very soon about the paint is peeling, if we don't roll or back brush we will have a big problem as you now.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> With all do respect, I am not judging anyone just trying to see if it is possible!
> This house is about 1800 SQ very dry 2 different shingle siding, back side has not been painted for a long time.
> Can you explain to me how can you painted it in one day?
> We scrap and sand first, then we power wash, full coat of tinted oil primer sprayed and back brushed, full coat of waterborne solid stain sprayed and back brushed.


First off...no sanding....no pressure wash...could be lead paint...pre 78...next I would spot prime...but why are you putting stain over oil primer? Stain only.....


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> First off...no sanding....no pressure wash...could be lead paint...pre 78...next I would spot prime...but why are you putting stain over oil primer? Stain only.....


richmondpainting!
Good question!
First I have a Festool sander with HEPA vac, Second that's why i power wash after i do all the scraping and sanding so nothing will fly away, in the early days in MA we could power wash and rinse all the dirts. Third I like to do full coat of tinted oil primer mixed with paint thinner that will make my top coat adhere better, no bleeding better finish. I like to use solid body stain it is lighter in mill. the lighter the paint the better it is, when you put 3 to 4 mill on an old previously peeled house most likely the new thick paint will peel in some areas specialy when dealing with lead. Don't forget stain fade latex paint chip.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I love the rrp rules. Washing all the lead dust into the ground


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> I love the rrp rules. Washing all the lead dust into the ground


Hi TJ Paint!
This house was painted about 3 to 4 years ago.
You are absolutely right, It was a learning curve for all of us.
As you can see from the pictures i had 3mill plastic all around when i was scraping and sanding most of the dust come out with the HEPA vac, i know some dust my still there i don't think we can eliminate all the dust 100% it will be a big cost factor to the HO, we ran true all facts those days to ensure proper way.
That's why for the past few years i try to stay away from painting lead houses.
I am always open for improvement.
Regards Dan.


----------



## sdoran (Feb 15, 2014)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> sdoran!
> 
> Please understand that I am not putting this guy down, I am sure he does what he think is right everyone have different strategy, for me i can paint the siding of his house by my self in one day it's small house but I still have to wait for my oil primer do dry need at least 12 hours before I i do my finish coat, I live in New England and trust me if you don't take it step by step the first freeze you will get a phone call very soon about the paint is peeling, if we don't roll or back brush we will have a big problem as you now.



Premier... I'm not specifically addressing you. It just frustrates me when people try and make a judgement off of one video and don't watch any other video he puts out... I definitely agree with you in the pictures that you posted that that house would definitely take way more than just one day. You're looking at multiple days of prep because of poor condition.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> richmondpainting!
> Good question!
> First I have a Festool sander with HEPA vac, Second that's why i power wash after i do all the scraping and sanding so nothing will fly away, in the early days in MA we could power wash and rinse all the dirts. Third I like to do full coat of tinted oil primer mixed with paint thinner that will make my top coat adhere better, no bleeding better finish. I like to use solid body stain it is lighter in mill. the lighter the paint the better it is, when you put 3 to 4 mill on an old previously peeled house most likely the new thick paint will peel in some areas specialy when dealing with lead. Don't forget stain fade latex paint chip.


Except your not suppose to put stain over oil primer....when we oil prime it because the house was previously painted and not stained....


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> Except your not suppose to put stain over oil primer....when we oil prime it because the house was previously painted and not stained....


Who said that?
You are mistaken richmondpainting.
You can use oil primer than use latex paint or water Solid stain on top,
ARBORCOAT Solid stain is 100% Acrylic Latex,


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Who said that?
> You are mistaken richmondpainting.
> You can use oil primer than use latex paint or water Solid stain on top,
> ARBORCOAT Solid stain is 100% Acrylic Latex,


When we stain..we spot prime with stain....

We only use oil when we use paint...

That doesn't make sense to use oil under stain....how does the stain pent rate through paint??


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> When we stain..we spot prime with stain....
> 
> We only use oil when we use paint...
> 
> That doesn't make sense to use oil under stain....how does the stain pent rate through paint??


Solid colors acrylic stains are basically thin paints and don't penetrate to an appreciable degree. It's common to prime under them in some situations and it's even called out in the manufacturer's specs.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Often we figure a first coat of a deep base oil primer that penetrates in plus an acrylic stain is the best of both worlds when a 2 coat system is needed for bare wood.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

For instance, here's the TDS for BM's ArborCoat Solid Color Acrylic Stain.

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo..._US&np=productcatalog_datasheets/tds/TDS_0640

Sometimes, it *does* make sense to read the directions.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> When we stain..we spot prime with stain....
> 
> We only use oil when we use paint...
> 
> That doesn't make sense to use oil under stain....how does the stain pent rate through paint??


read the directions:yes:


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> When we stain..we spot prime with stain....
> 
> We only use oil when we use paint...
> 
> That doesn't make sense to use oil under stain....how does the stain pent rate through paint??


richmondpainting!
Maybe that will clarify the different for you, one coat system oil stain two coats system water base stain :confused1:
These two houses where painted almost same color with two different stain, one oil and one solid water base stain.
First House was painted with one coat system with oil stain, second house was painted with two coat system with tinted oil primer and water solid stain personally i prefers two coat system it looks better easy to re-coat doesn't flash, if i have to use one coat system i prefer to paint the six side before installing. The Cabot oil stain is one coat only, you can't do 2 coats with this.
Hope this help you to distinguish the different.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> read the directions:yes:


Who has time for THAT?


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

We always do wood scape latex...with no primer......

If some one "paints" it....then we stick with oil primer and paint....

We do more cedar lap siding than anything else we do....


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> We always do wood scape latex...with no primer......
> 
> If some one "paints" it....then we stick with oil primer and paint....
> 
> We do more cedar lap siding than anything else we do....


And the PDS for Woodscapes Solid Color Acrylic Stain suggests bleed-prone woods be primed with...wait for it...Exterior Oil-based Primer.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

chrisn said:


> read the directions:yes:


:boat:


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> And the PDS for Woodscapes Solid Color Acrylic Stain suggests bleed-prone woods be primed with...wait for it...Exterior Oil-based Primer.


really? unbelievable


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Gough said:


> And the PDS for Woodscapes Solid Color Acrylic Stain suggests bleed-prone woods be primed with...wait for it...Exterior Oil-based Primer.


Maybe oil priming red cedar siding (especially in lighter colors) is one of those "value-added services" that people keep posting about.:whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

I'll stick with how I learned it.....never steered me wrong so far....


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Ok here's a trip. Three houses were recently built across the street from me so I got a chance to see the NC process in action. The new cedar shingles they thinned latex paint 50% with water and sprayed and back rolled one coat. It was all SW cheap stuff. Latex for Hardi siding and shingles for the gables, I think oil solid stain for trim. 
The guys said that even if they are painting bare wood or the shingles they thin the first coat 50% and then full strength on the second coat. I know it makes no sense but these guys do tons of jobs so it must work. 
Now the painting inside looked pretty bad. Low sheen on all walls and ceilings, spray, minimal back roll I'm guessing by the lines, trim had lots of texture, nail holes with bumps etc, and these were supposedly "luxury homes". 
The kicker was that the superintendent said he paid $1.00 per floor SF for interior and exterior, and an additional .65 per floor SF if they have a painted interior mill pack as opposed to a pre stained mill pack. Geez. I didn't try to get in on that action!


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Damon T said:


> Ok here's a trip. Three houses were recently built across the street from me so I got a chance to see the NC process in action. The new cedar shingles they thinned latex paint 50% with water and sprayed and back rolled one coat. It was all SW cheap stuff. Latex for Hardi siding and shingles for the gables, I think oil solid stain for trim.
> The guys said that even if they are painting bare wood or the shingles they thin the first coat 50% and then full strength on the second coat. I know it makes no sense but these guys do tons of jobs so it must work.
> Now the painting inside looked pretty bad. Low sheen on all walls and ceilings, spray, minimal back roll I'm guessing by the lines, trim had lots of texture, nail holes with bumps etc, and these were supposedly "luxury homes".
> The kicker was that the superintendent said he paid $1.00 per floor SF for interior and exterior, and an additional .65 per floor SF if they have a painted interior mill pack as opposed to a pre stained mill pack. Geez. I didn't try to get in on that action!



Maybe it'd make for an interesting follow-up in 1 yr. I'd like to see those cedar shingles then. When the painters swore it, "worked", maybe they were referring to the fact that it worked long enough to get paid? 

I also find it funny, (and sad), that their prices were based on floor square-footage. Seeing how I just finished a 1218 sq. ft. Interior with 32' ceilings, I'm thankful I left my price-per-sq ft formulas at home while giving the price.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah price per floor SF is a moving target. Although if they do enough of the same type of house they might have a decent idea. Still, I would probably need to be 5 to 7 times the price. But then again these guys masked and painted the whole exterior (about 3200 floor SF) in a day with three guys. 
The interior they primed in a day, then came back and spent several days doing walls and trim.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> I'll stick with how I learned it.....never steered me wrong so far....




or , you have just been doing it wrong all this time and are steering in the wrong direction :blink:


----------



## luny2nz (Nov 14, 2008)

chrisn said:


> or , you have just been doing it wrong all this time and are steering in the wrong direction :blink:


I am one of the most stubborn, hard headed, persons I know. 
One of the hardest/best lessons I have learned is that there may be a better way of doing something.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

luny2nz said:


> I am one of the most stubborn, hard headed, persons I know.
> One of the hardest/best lessons I have learned is that there may be a better way of doing something.


The most important stuff we learn... is what we learn after we know it all.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> The most important stuff we learn... is what we learn after we know it all.


Gough!
I am impressed!
I like reading your Quotes short and on target :thumbsup:


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Gough!
> I am impressed!
> I like reading your Quotes short and on target :thumbsup:


Yeah, you say that now. But if you hang around here long enough, you'll be wanting to whack him with a shaved rubber chicken. 

Trust me on this.:yes:


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Yeah, you say that now. But if you hang around here long enough, you'll be wanting to whack him with a shaved rubber chicken.
> 
> Trust me on this.:yes:


shhhh you will be :ban:


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Yeah, you say that now. But if you hang around here long enough, you'll be wanting to whack him with a shaved rubber chicken.
> 
> Trust me on this.:yes:


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Yeah, you say that now. But if you hang around here long enough, you'll be wanting to whack him with a shaved rubber chicken.
> 
> Trust me on this.:yes:


Slinger, just so you know, the rubber chicken has been our unofficial mascot for 35+ years.

Clients are a little surprised when they give me a key to their house and I put it on one of these:


----------



## luny2nz (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey Joe.
What made you decide to choose that particular chicken picture?


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

luny2nz said:


> Hey Joe.
> What made you decide to choose that particular chicken picture?


Keep what???


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

luny2nz said:


> Hey Joe.
> What made you decide to choose that particular chicken picture?


I did a google search for shaven chicken, and I thought that one/find was funny. :jester:


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

chrisn said:


> or , you have just been doing it wrong all this time and are steering in the wrong direction :blink:


I give a three year warranty which only one other contractor within 100 miles offers.......And we have very minimal issues if ever on cedar houses as that is what we do the most of......not to mention we do most of them in one day....


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> I give a three year warranty which only one other contractor within 100 miles offers.......And we have very minimal issues if ever on cedar houses as that is what we do the most of......not to mention we do most of them in one day....


Never mined that :sneaky2:warranty! Wrong way is a wrong way :hammer:


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> I give a three year warranty which only one other contractor within 100 miles offers.......And we have very minimal issues if ever on cedar houses as that is what we do the most of......not to mention we do most of them in one day....


Do they give a longer warranty?. 

Given the ~ 9 million people in that radius, which includes Chicago, I'll have to say that I'm skeptical of your claim.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Do they give a longer warranty?.
> 
> Given the ~ 9 million people in that radius, which includes Chicago, I'll have to say that I'm skeptical of your claim.


No the company who does....I use to sub for....I have researched painters sites all over the country and especially in my area....I've torn sites apart and read all different aspects of there sites...especially any contractor who really is worth anything.....


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> I give a three year warranty which only one other contractor within 100 miles offers.......And we have very minimal issues if ever on cedar houses as that is what we do the most of......not to mention we do most of them in one day....


I am hoping you don't give a warranty on a warranty:sweatdrop:
You will end up baptizing their grand childrenarty: or have a timeshare or maybe you'll grow up old together:wheelchair:


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> No the company who does....I use to sub for....I have researched painters sites all over the country and especially in my area....I've torn sites apart and read all different aspects of there sites...especially any contractor who really is worth anything.....


Thanks for the clarification. That you haven't found a painting company website offering the same warranty is just a little different than only one company within 100 miles does.

If I recall correctly, your warranty was discussed in a previous thread, right?


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> Thanks for the clarification. That you haven't found a painting company website offering the same warranty is just a little different than only one company within 100 miles does.
> 
> If I recall correctly, your warranty was discussed in a previous thread, right?


I love to see that tread Gough


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> I love to see that tread Gough


What do you want to know?


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> What do you want to know?


I always find warranty interested, like to see how other feel about warranties.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> I always find warranty interested, like to see how other feel about warranties.


Think it's crap...9 out of 10 times it's not our fault but we fix it anyways as we're already there and obviously want a happy customer.....


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Think it's crap...9 out of 10 times it's not our fault but we fix it anyways as we're already there and obviously want a happy customer.....


good feeling to have about you're own warranty :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------

