# How to charge for painting French Doors



## Mimsli (Dec 17, 2014)

Hello all,

I am Mimsli, the painting lady...brand new here and hoping that you can help me. I am an independent interior wall painter, but agreed (reluctantly) to paint a set of interior/exterior NEW French doors. These were made of birch and had been primed. The front door also had a set of windows next to it. So…interior and exterior of both doors, plus the set of small windows, plus trim that surrounded doors both on the interior and exterior. I learned many hard lessons on this project, the main one being that I should have much more closely observed the prep job that had been done on all of this. I could see when I started the job that it was a terrible prep job and if I didn't correct it the doors would not look professional. Bottom line, I had to caulk, fill in nail holes, sand, and re-prime all of the surfaces. The exterior paint color was SW Still Water, very dark. The interior was white, so I had to tape off a lot. VERY VERY time consuming. The first paint I started to use on the exterior was terrible. So had to sand and prime the strip I had done. Lots of taping because of the glass, because of weather stripping, because of two different colors. I normally paint by the hour, but I could tell very quickly I would not be able to charge by the hour on this job, as it took me about 40 hours to complete the job to perfection. SO…after all that, could you all give me advice on how to charge for a job like this? I was way in over my head, but the doors did turn out to be lovely. I don't want the owner (who is a friend) to gag when I give them my invoice. Thank you so much for any help you can give. ~Mimsli


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Hey Mimsli. So you had a learning experience, French doors are time consuming. A painter experienced in this aspect of the trade should be able to prep and paint an average set of French doors in a day. Both sides, two coats. While we can't realistically talk pricing, I would bill them for 8-10 hours at your normal rate. Your customer shouldn't have to pay for your "education" IMHO.


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Hmmm
Since you're new to the industry perhaps you should invoice your friend for how long it should've taken rather than how long it actually took you and consider the loss the cost of experience. 

The side windows are sometimes referred to as sidelites or side lights.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Danahy said:


> The side windows are sometimes referred to as sidelines.


You mean sidelights? (Stupid autocorrect)


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> You mean sidelights? (Stupid autocorrect)



Yup lol. 
I was autocorrected. Hurray for edits


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## Mimsli (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks, ya'll. I am not new to the industry, just new to a set of doors like this. i agree, the owners should not have to pay for my education. I want them to be happy going in and out of these doors, rather than feeling regret over having asked me to paint them. And I am so sorry…I just read on the introduction page that I should not ask questions about charging. I appreciate you all taking the time to answer, and ask your forgiveness for breaking the rules.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Mimsli said:


> And I am so sorry…I just read on the introduction page that I should not ask questions about charging. I appreciate you all taking the time to answer, and ask your forgiveness for breaking the rules.


It's perfectly fine to ask HOW to charge, just not WHAT. We all have regional pricing differences, different overhead, different size company's etc. I'm in Chicago and your in Austin, I'm sure right there we would be hundreds of dollars apart. :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Mimsli said:


> Thanks, ya'll. I am not new to the industry, just new to a set of doors like this. i agree, the owners should not have to pay for my education. I want them to be happy going in and out of these doors, rather than feeling regret over having asked me to paint them. And I am so sorry…I just read on the introduction page that I should not ask questions about charging. I appreciate you all taking the time to answer, and ask your forgiveness for breaking the rules.


Mimsli,

As Paul says, we are more than happy to teach you HOW to charge.

With that said, may I suggest that you take notes on how long each procedure (fill, sand, prime, 1st finish, 2nd finish, and whatever else) takes on the doors. That way when faced with something similar, you will have a basis for your estimate/invoice.

And be assured, you WILL be forever changing your production notes.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Am I correct that when you say a set of French doors you mean two plus the sidelights on either side of them? If so then I think it would take more than the 8-10 hours. Especially with the dark color on the outside. I wouldn't go less than half the hours on this one if I were you. 20 hours is not unreasonable imo for a large custom set of doors. So if your hourly rate was $40 then multiply by 20 etc. plus materials of course. Plus travel time, setup time, time going to the store, time preparing the bill, time posting on Painttalk asking about the project, time worrying about how much it cost, time wondering why the heck you got into this mess in the first place. Ok I think we are back up to your original 40 hours. See , you were right on time the first time around. 

Good luck!


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

just deduct the time you spent when you stuffed up, if you didn't give them a price to begin with then its like a mechanic, it takes what it takes to get it right. if you got the wrong paint and had to strip it then yeah your mistake your time, but as for the rest should be fine. maybe if you feel bad or what ever lower your hourly rate so you break even.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

If it took 40 hours, then charge for 40 hours.

(That's how T&M works)

Next time you see one...you'll know it takes 40 hours, and you can bid it (@ 45 hours).


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I thought I could refinish these in 10-12 hours (and I told the HO's that)

But I wasn't really sure, so I did 'em T&M.

Should I have "made them a deal" because I wasn't sure how long custom mahogany doors with a buncha little squares in it would take?

It took 20 hours, so I charged them for 20 hours...cuz that's how T&M works.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can see her coming back in a few years saying how some "low baller" out bid her on a job .... She bid 75 hrs On a bedroom an he came in at 10hrs


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not gonna comment on the 40hrs thing.

Sounds like a hellofa long time...but I wasn't there.

Ole...2 minutes and 40 seconds :thumbsup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

8-10 hours to paint both sides of the door and sidelights? I take half that time and they always come out looking great for new doors, exiting hard to say as it depends on condition. But I have never taken 8-10 hrs even on the worst looking doors I have done.

If you have the right tools this should be a fairly quick type of job.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think the point is, how long these doors should take, but how to charge when you're working T&M.

Maybe the OP only charges $15 an hr..if that's the case. the HO's got a good deal.

$15per x 40hrs= 600.00

$80per per x 8hrs = $640

$13,000per x 2 minutes 40 seconds = $650

so we can see using my math, that Ole would be the worst deal!


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

The doors need to be in the $400-$850 price range ..



Just bill her something along those lines and after a few months you'll forget all about it (lesson learned)


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

When I start a T/M job it's at $75 per man hour..... It doesn't always end up at that rate. If I was in your shoes I would do as Steve said an work it out at $15 per man hour an call it a day


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> When I start a T/M job it's at $75 per man hour..... It doesn't always end up at that rate. If I was in your shoes I would do as Steve said an work it out at $15 per man hour an call it a day


We like the idea of painter + helper = $120/hr, because it makes the math easier for the client. Want to stop us and just chat with us both for 5 minutes? That one's pretty simple to figure.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Gough said:


> We like the idea of painter + helper = $120/hr, because it makes the math easier for the client. Want to stop us and just chat with us both for 5 minutes? That one's pretty simple to figure.



I do that also if I'm with somebody..... Easier to justify as well and doesn't give them your exact rate just a rate that's split between 2 guys... Could be $100 an $20 for the other guy or $60 each ... Who knows


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I slipped once an told a lady that lunch was included in my bid an she was like "I'm paying for your lunch?".....well, yes ..indirectly right?



She didn't agree with me lol


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

You should charge for French doors in francs. 

Not sure what the exchange rate is. Sorry.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> You should charge for French doors in francs.
> 
> Not sure what the exchange rate is. Sorry.


 


it would be about $4,500 Euros ........



theres just NO way to get out of spending 40Hrs on a set of doors


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Not a business man, bit the oldest trick in the game. time and material you put on helpers/.apprentices and charge full rate for em. He's wearing whites. He's a painter.....

I'm sure none of the PT ers would pull that one, though. 

All Kimda ways to make money on a time and material job.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I thought I could refinish these in 10-12 hours (and I told the HO's that)
> 
> But I wasn't really sure, so I did 'em T&M.
> 
> ...


OOOOPS, Steve, you just blew your cover. It looks like you are NOT a hack :thumbup:


pay no attention to that man behind the pseudonym


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> I do that also if I'm with somebody..... Easier to justify as well and doesn't give them your exact rate just a rate that's split between 2 guys... Could be $100 an $20 for the other guy or $60 each ... Who knows


Or 10$ for the painter and the rest for ME!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> You should charge for French doors in francs.
> 
> Not sure what the exchange rate is. Sorry.


They're not "French" doors to us, they're Freedom Doors!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

This is a great example of always talking money before you start


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

daArch said:


> OOOOPS, Steve, you just blew your cover. It looks like you are NOT a hack :thumbup:
> 
> 
> pay no attention to that man behind the pseudonym


Thanks Arch! Here's the "after" pic...


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> Thanks Arch! Here's the "after" pic...


The distressed finish. The faux finishers around here will pm'ing you for your technique. :thumbup:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yep cats out of the bag now SR! Damn fine work for a hack!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If I knew you didn't need any experience other than how to paint interior walls, I would have started my own painting business years ago. And to claim to be a painting business, without having any idea how to go about painting french doors, or windows, is absolutely amazing!


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

CApainter said:


> If I knew you didn't need any experience other than how to paint interior walls, I would have started my own painting business years ago. And to claim to be a painting business, without having any idea how to go about painting french doors, or windows, is absolutely amazing!


 


i knew a guy who had never seen a pot hook before .......he didnt do exteriors and always worked off a step ladder holding the can in his hand ... he was dead serious to about never seeing one lol wierd


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> i knew a guy who had never seen a pot hook before


 I'd never used a store-bought one until after I'd been in business for 20 years.. but could never find them when I needed them, and have gone back to the bent-bale (cuz they're everywhere).


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I'd never used a store-bought one until after I'd been in business for 20 years.. but could never find them when I needed them, and have gone back to the bent-bale (cuz they're everywhere).


We don't use pot hook, period. That's what your other hand is for. 

Need to hold onto the ladder? That's why you have knees.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Once before starting on my own I was layed off for the winter. I had an ad out for little side jobs

This company calls me asking if I'd like a job subbing from him. He said "it's about 4 days worth of work for a painter that knows what he's doing" 

So I go to look at it and it's this massive noise in the beginning of the richest neighbourhood In the city. It's got massive French panelled windows, doors crown, wainscotting, the works and it all needed lots of prep and two coats. 

Well I thought to myself. Wow there's a lot of work here but if I quote kore team 4 days he might think I don't know what I'm doing. As I was terrible at bidding things 

So I quoted for 38 hrs. 

It took me 140 hrs. Lesson learnt. Just because it doesn't seem like am altogether big space or item to paint, it can still take a lot of time to paint.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Damn, P.Aaron..you got beat up ever worse than Mizz did over in Ole's F-up thread!

102 free hours? I wonder if that's a PT record?

I'm glad everyone's taking their bumps and learning their lessons.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> Damn, P.Aaron..you got beat up ever worse than Mizz did over in Ole's F-up thread!
> 
> 102 free hours? I wonder if that's a PT record?
> 
> I'm glad everyone's taking their bumps and learning their lessons.



Lol and would you believe he still ripped me off 100$! 

On an extra though


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Lol and would you believe he still ripped me off 100$!
> 
> On an extra though


I knew this guy, was nice enough to add on a buncha extra work, and only asked for the (extra $200) materials in return.
HO let him do the work, nit-picked all the way through, and then ripped him off for the $200.

Oh wait..that was Mizz!

LOL

Sorry Mizz, I couldn't help it. (your story touched me today)


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Why are some of us afraid to charge? If a task takes 40 hours it takes 40 hours.

You didn't put 15 lights in a door, you didn't choose the colors, you didn't fail to prime the tops and bottoms of a pre-primed door, you didn't smear weather stripping goo all over the glass, you didn't price a gallon of paint at 60 bucks and a roll of tape at 10, and on and on and on. 

It costs a lot to put a nice finish on a detailed piece. 

It is what it is.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Damn, P.Aaron..you got beat up ever worse than Mizz did over in Ole's F-up thread!
> 
> 102 free hours? I wonder if that's a PT record?
> 
> I'm glad everyone's taking their bumps and learning their lessons.


I don't really want to go into details, but I'll say this: not even close.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Come on, Gough.. type it up! What else ya got to do?

Don't leave out any juicy details (no matter how twisted or perverted) either.

Maybe start a new thread, and give the winner an award!

I won't have much to offer. Once I see I'm gonna have to work more than about 45 minutes for free, I start pulling the hack-tricks out.


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## capn26 (Aug 17, 2014)

GMack said:


> Why are some of us afraid to charge? If a task takes 40 hours it takes 40 hours.
> 
> You didn't put 15 lights in a door, you didn't choose the colors, you didn't fail to prime the tops and bottoms of a pre-primed door, you didn't smear weather stripping goo all over the glass, you didn't price a gallon of paint at 60 bucks and a roll of tape at 10, and on and on and on.
> 
> ...



I'm guilty of doing it and know I'm am idiot for it too. I can't tell you how many sticking doors I've taken down trimmed and painted for naught. And it kills me b/c you know if u go to a mechanic, hell charge 50 if he has to change one extra spark plug and no one bats an eye. 

The flip of that is the amount of customers who don't blink elsewhere and gripe about your price. The very first job I did on my on was a small one for my dad. Guy has ~50' of rotten facia. Someone added a piece of Mdf (not making this up. Mdf outside) base cap as a rake moulding. Okay. We tear off facia. I back prime everything in oil. Put it up. Add PVC base cap. Caulk paint and two coats of oil. Customer supplied valspar 4000 oil (yippee). $600. We were doing him a huge favor. He was in a tight spot, needed to sell house, yada yada. He complained like we'd run off with his wife, and tried for four weeks to get the price lower. We finally told him 600 wouldn't break us and if he couldn't afford to pay for the whole thing just keep it. He finally paid. But no one else would've shown up for that price, he knew it, and STILL griped. Every time I do a favor with a good intent, I get well and truly screwed. 

In other words, charge for what you did and let the cards fall where they fall.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gough said:


> We don't use pot hook, period. That's what your other hand is for.
> 
> Need to hold onto the ladder? That's why you have knees.


Whaaa???

I love paint hooks. The only ones I like are made by werner. I like em so you can use your other hand for stability while reaching and covering a greater area. Especially while working under eaves, say for cutting in before rolling. Another place is interior stairways when using an extension ladder.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

capn26 said:


> I'm guilty of doing it and know I'm am idiot for it too. I can't tell you how many sticking doors I've taken down trimmed and painted for naught. And it kills me b/c you know if u go to a mechanic, hell charge 50 if he has to change one extra spark plug and no one bats an eye.
> 
> The flip of that is the amount of customers who don't blink elsewhere and gripe about your price. The very first job I did on my on was a small one for my dad. Guy has ~50' of rotten facia. Someone added a piece of Mdf (not making this up. Mdf outside) base cap as a rake moulding. Okay. We tear off facia. I back prime everything in oil. Put it up. Add PVC base cap. Caulk paint and two coats of oil. Customer supplied valspar 4000 oil (yippee). $600. We were doing him a huge favor. He was in a tight spot, needed to sell house, yada yada. He complained like we'd run off with his wife, and tried for four weeks to get the price lower. We finally told him 600 wouldn't break us and if he couldn't afford to pay for the whole thing just keep it. He finally paid. But no one else would've shown up for that price, he knew it, and STILL griped. Every time I do a favor with a good intent, I get well and truly screwed.
> 
> In other words, charge for what you did and let the cards fall where they fall.



I used to give out a freebie here and there. One day I offered to do something free for a customer and he said

"No, it would be nice but if I can reach you one thing is to not give out freebies. You can give someone freebies day in and day out but as soon as you make a mistake they will feed you to the dogs".


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