# Conversion varnish not catalyzing



## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

I am a self-employed residential remodeling contractor. My formal training is with carpentry, but as I worked in the painting trade for 2 years full time before persuing carpentry trade, I also still do all my painting/finishing when jobs are only 1-2 rooms of a house. I read alot here, but post little as typically my experience is lacking to add to the professional advice already offered.

3 times now, I had a conversion varnish fail to set up....but it did air dry as a typical waterborne varnish does...so not a total bust, but chemist said though air dried non blended waterborne conversion varnish is much harder than High Performance(HP is also a hard finish), it still would have been harder had it catalyzed. Product is General Finishes Waterborne Conversion Varnish, sprayer was a Graco Finishpro HVLP 9.5.

I contacted GF after the first 2 failures and they responded very quickly and said the catalyst has to be thoroughly mixed.....saying a good 10 minutes. Never mentioned any DETAILS on the can. I only was using the quart cap gun, so I did not mix 10 minutes....can says mix...I mixed thoroughly, but not 10 minutes, 10 minutes is an incredible long time.

So GF kindly volunteered and sent me more product to assist my testing. So I started testing, but had same result. Product air dries, but when taking the leftover material and placing in scrap container, the thick material is supposed to set up like a concrete product does(for ex. 3" deep will still cure through in 6-8 hrs). I mixed a good 10 minutes the third time, but I did not use a power drill and paddle(overkill???). I wrote back to company just last Friday and still waiting for a response on detailed mixing and filtering instructions before I write off the product. Per some testimony here the product is supposed to be good. Be advised that after mixing, I filtered product through a medium mesh Trimaco filter, and each time the product filters poorly through the filter....very poor, indicating emulsion after mixing, but as I cannot see emulsion before filtering, what else am I to do? It is not like one product is blue and one yellow and you mix till a solid green. Nothing visible indicates the product did not blend. Kind of like oxygen in the air, you just hope its there each time you take a breath, but do not know until after you have done it. When I use GF High Performance waterborne, it filters perfect through those same filters, and so does latex paint. Filter is not the problem. Catalyst type is correct per label, and ratio was exactly per MFR spec.

An ideas on what can be done different, besides the obvious of using a different product? I am confident the chemist from GF will reply, very good customer service, I just want to coach his feedback with that of tradesman's experience.

Thanks for the consideration.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

As I understand it, General Finishes only sells waterborne products. WB conversion varnishes are not 'hot' like some solvent CV's. Even many solvent CV's use a weaker catalyst which won't gel up or harden in the can very quickly. 

Also, conversion varnishes dry slowly - not quick like lacquers do. It's because they're an amino alkyd product.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The only WB 2k I have tried is the ML Campbell one. I have not tried the General Finish one yet (on my "to test" list). It is a pretty new product and you are the first I have heard of using it, so it may be hard to find help. Check woodweb.com as well (look for their finishing subforum). More cabinet and furniture finishers over there.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Rcon said:


> As I understand it, General Finishes only sells waterborne products. WB conversion varnishes are not 'hot' like some solvent CV's. Even many solvent CV's use a weaker catalyst which won't gel up or harden in the can very quickly.
> 
> Also, conversion varnishes dry slowly - not quick like lacquers do. It's because they're an amino alkyd product.


 
Correctomundo.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

FYI, when I looked into the General Finishes CV, it is not any healthier for the painter in terms of isocyanates than solvent based. I know I sometimes falsely assume WB is healthier. The absence of solvents can help, but some of the other nasty stuff is present just as much or more in some cases. I read an article that in WB conversion varnsishes the isocyanates react with the water as well so to maintain effectiveness traditionally the manufacturers have increased the amount of catalyst to offset the water-isocyanate reaction. But, there is a new method of mixing something else in that can offset the water reaction. I do not know what method General Finishes uses.


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## bbair (Nov 18, 2012)

Try Kem Aqua! I really like it for a cabinet grade water-based lacquer. Works great and no mixing.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

Yes, my supplier said product was brand new...and supposed to be super hard finish so was a win/win as I just had a customer who purchased an antique table and old finish was lifting. See pic. Must have been a shellac applied over a varnish as the top cleaned off with denatured alchohol. Ingredients to GF waterborne conversion varnish read as follows: Acrylic resin, Glycol Ethers, Propylene Glycol, Urethane Resin. Catalyst says Dipropylene Glycol Dimethyl Ether and Aliphatic Polyisocyanate. I thinks this means do not drink it!

The little I understand of the science is that ethers dissolve the oils and ethers are also water soluble. Yes this product did stink and definitely had a mask on in that tent at all times. Job was pretty small so chose to finish right in the dining room(plus hard to move a table when working by yourself) and wanted waterborne so fumes would filter better through my Rainbow vacuum which uses water as a filter. Choice worked great to have home smelling good and fresh by the time children and owner came home from work and school. But like I said, product did not set up as per can. Drying time per can is tack free in 5-10 minutes, ready to sand in 30-45 minutes and recoat in 1 hour. That is less than 1/2 of the 2 hours Zar required me to wait for the Waterborne Spar Marine varnish I just used. Job was close to an hour 1 way from shop, so drying time was critical to making all work without multiple trips to an area I do not work in often. 

Was hoping maybe the technology of mixing was/is universal. Never heard from MFR today. Will follow up on this thread when detailed reply is provided by the chemist. Thanks again for the consideration.

I almost always have customers around when I spray so this is why I have been choosing to work with waterborne product. Waterborne is causing me fits to get it to lay down, but not be so heavy it runs. Have been trying many products and still not finding one I would call easy....but this waterborne conversion has been my best leveling product yet. A bit pricey @ $115 a gallon including the catalyst but it is said to be much harder than any other offering from GF. This table top was flat making all easier, sprayed edge down and then inserted 2 x 4 to prop and finish and not create an edge. Left top just down a little so did not glue leaf together.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

The term "waterborne conversion varnish" is a little misleading. There's not a true "conversion varnish" that's waterborne (at least not that I've seen), they are nearly always self-crosslinking aliphatic urethanes. The "catalyst" is a polyisocyanate resin that makes it harder, if you've ever used a plain old chain-stop alkyd (think cheap trailer paint) and added a "hardener" to it, this waterborne is similar in method. This is why your finish dried even thought the "catalyst" didn't seem to be working. They probably sent you the wrong one or it was defective.

True conversion varnish will not dry without catalyst.


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

The first time I talked to chemist before he sent me more sample for testing, he expected the product to dry. Chemical make-up was given above..I do not care what the product is called, I just want it to work. In this case food friendly(MFR said Enduro Conversion is) and extremely hard were the priorities. I would be hard pressed to believe 2 separate gallons are both bad????, who knows, I just do not deal with the volume of product to give an informed opinion.

Has anyone ever heard of the need to mix so thoroughly, or special mixing instructions? I just do not know if RPM's from a motor cause some unique reaction?


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Always Learning said:


> The first time I talked to chemist before he sent me more sample for testing, he expected the product to dry. Chemical make-up was given above..I do not care what the product is called, I just want it to work. In this case food friendly(MFR said Enduro Conversion is) and extremely hard were the priorities. I would be hard pressed to believe 2 separate gallons are both bad????, who knows, I just do not deal with the volume of product to give an informed opinion.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard of the need to mix so thoroughly, or special mixing instructions? I just do not know if RPM's from a motor cause some unique reaction?


No, vigorously or for several minutes yes. 10 minutes especially with power tools? A bit excessive in my opinion. 

Chemical reaction from a power tool? Other than heat from "friction", I doubt it. But then again, it's like the conundrum of a tootsie pop....the world may never know. <shrugs>

If I have problems with products from suppliers or support issues, I move on. GF is a good company I order a boat load of stuff from them, not this particular product, but have had good results with their stuff. A bit pricey, but chances are you pay for what you get as a result. 

But with anything this might be one product they aren't good at producing. Just like I don't always get every stain from them, some things are better some place else. 

keep us updated.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

Always Learning said:


> The first time I talked to chemist before he sent me more sample for testing, he expected the product to dry. Chemical make-up was given above..I do not care what the product is called, I just want it to work. In this case food friendly(MFR said Enduro Conversion is) and extremely hard were the priorities. I would be hard pressed to believe 2 separate gallons are both bad????, who knows, I just do not deal with the volume of product to give an informed opinion.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard of the need to mix so thoroughly, or special mixing instructions? I just do not know if RPM's from a motor cause some unique reaction?



I didn't mean the coating itself was bad, but the catalyst might be. I make one too, and for whatever reason, we'll have a bottle of bad catalyst 1-2 times a year (packaged by an outside company). I can only assume that since this technology is relatively new to the U.S., that General's formulation isn't much different than ours. 

I still think the General stuff is sound or else they wouldn't be selling it.

Have you tried brushing some out onto a piece of glass to see what it does? This would eliminate the wood, and the stain (if any) as a potential problem.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DeanV said:


> FYI, when I looked into the General Finishes CV, it is not any healthier for the painter in terms of isocyanates than solvent based. I know I sometimes falsely assume WB is healthier. The absence of solvents can help, but some of the other nasty stuff is present just as much or more in some cases. I read an article that in WB conversion varnsishes the isocyanates react with the water as well so to maintain effectiveness traditionally the manufacturers have increased the amount of catalyst to offset the water-isocyanate reaction. But, there is a new method of mixing something else in that can offset the water reaction. I do not know what method General Finishes uses.


I discovered only after blending and spraying the Sherwin William's WB Acrolon 100, that the catalyst contained a significant amount of isocyanate. The product did however perform well. The finish is hard and glossy.

All of the water borne two component materials I've used like PPG's Aqua Pon, SW Acrolon 100, and several others have never hardened in the waste pot like most of the solvent borne conversion coatings do. The waste pot should not be an indicator for how a waterbase epoxy is curing.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

GFCV requires a sweat in time. Sorry for posting the entire data sheet.



*GENERAL FINISHES CONVERSION VARNISH*Conversion Varnish is a post catalyzed high solids, two component urethane formulated for ultimate durability and chemical resistance. Note: Requires NCO Catalyst

Sheens: Flat, satin, semi-gloss, and gloss 
Sanding: Sand bare wood to 220 grit. 
Additives: Extender, adds more open time. Accelerator, quickens dry time. Do not use Crosslinker use the correct NCO catalyst. 
Use: Interior and Exterior.
Compatibility: Can be used over any GF water base Top Coat, Sanding Sealer, Wood Stains, Dye stains, RTM, Glazes, and Milk Paint
Color: Clear
Cure Time: 1 week
Application: Spray only - has excellent flow and level for heavy duty wear surfaces.
Coats: 3 coats, additional coats can be applied depending on use.
Recoat: 1-2 hours
Spray Tip Sizes: Tip sizes recommended: Compressed Air .040, HVLP— .043-.051, Airless .009-.013. Air caps should be medium size.
Cleanup: Soap and warm water
Coverage: 450-500 sq. ft/gal
Weight Solids: 28% VolumeSolids: 25.5%
Viscosity: 30-40 Seconds, Ford # 4 Pot Life: 6-8 Hours
VOC: < 195 g/l ( 1.63 lbs/gal.) Actual VOC < 65 g/l (0.45 lbs/gal.)
Recommended uses: suitable for com- mercial tabletops, bar tops, cabinetry, doors, and millwork.FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

*Can I thin Conversion Varnish? *Yes a small amount of water or GF Extender will thin product. Reduce only by 5% increments, it is best to use the correct recommended needle nozzle size instead.
*Can I brush on Conversion Varnish?* No it is a spray on product only. You could pad on a small area such as kitchen cupboard frames but larger areas would be hard to level. Use Extender to help wet out when brushing on 15-20%. (For brush applications a better option would be GF High Performance, add Crosslinker to move to a higher level of chemical and water resistance if needed.)
*What other GF top coats can I use the Conversion Varnish over?* Conversion Varnish can be applied over all the GF top coats. Enduro Lacquer & Poly, PolyAcrylic, High Performance, Pre-Cat or Sanding Sealer, and Enduro-Var. In fact it will adhere to most other solvent top coats as well, but it is always best to test over an unknown finish first and do proper cleaning for adherence. Clean all areas first with 50% denatured Alcohol and 50% water mixture. Dip scotchbrite pad into mixture and scuff surface. Let dry, then sand with 3M super fine soft backed sanding sponge.
*What GF stains can I use the Conversion Varnish over? *GF water base wood stains, dye, RTM, glazes and Milk Paints. Also can be used over GF oil base liquid or gel stains as long as they are dry 48 hours.
*Do I need to strain before spraying? *Yes it is recommended to strain product through a fine mesh prior to spraying.
*How thick do you recommend spraying the Conversion Varnish?* 3-5 mil thickness and spray medium wet films.
*Will Enduro Conversion Varnish add any color if sprayed over GF White Poly?* It will add minimal color change.
*Can Conversion Varnish be used for toning?* Yes - add GF Dye Stain, Wood Stain, RTM Stain or Trans Tints. Add no more than 5%-10% to tone. Apply two coats half strength vs. 1 heavy tinted top coat. Color will look even, with less chance of over laps or runs when layered on.
*How many coats are recommended? *Depending on use of furniture 3 coats minimum. Use 4 coats for best ware for commercial use on bars, commercial table tops, bathroom vanities, around dishwashers, kitchen cupboards or high moisture areas.
*How much catalyst do I mix in with the Conversion Varnish? *Mix 10% of NCO catalyst by weight or volume to the Conversion Varnish (e.g. 32oz. of CV add 3.2 oz. Catalyst) . Use gloves and eyewear when mixing. Stir well for *5 minutes, let sweat in for 10 minutes,* strain with fine cone filter. Mix only what you are going to use, left over product will solidify after 6-8 hours. Do not leave in gun or pot overnight, always clean out when done spraying. Wear a full filter respirator (NIOSH/MSHA approved), spray in spray booth with proper ventilation. The finish and hardener can only be mixed once. Caution: Do not re-cap Conversion Varnish once mixed with catalyst to avoid pressure build-up.


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks for continued feedback. So I did start a thread per recommendation above on Woodweb. Had 1 user of product reply:



> Chris Fischer
> 
> I have been using this product for about 5 months now and havn't had any issues like you are describing. the ratio is 10% catalyst by volume. you have to use a drill and paddle to mix it. you should be mixing as you are adding the catalyst. you can't just dump it in and start stirring.
> I have been told by the reps to mix for 5 minutes not 10. As far as it hardening up after the pot life has expired I have never been told it will dry up like concrete. it does however gel up and cannot be used again. Waterborne coatings are not the same as their solvent based counterparts in that regard. I have done some testing with the GF conversion varnish and can tell you that in all of my years of finishing with waterborne coatings I have not used a product that gives as hard of a final finish as this does. I have tested droplets of lacquer thinner on cured samples of this finish and it doesn't leave any marks or damage to the cured finish. You may want to start by mixing it with a drill and paddle and be sure to spray thin coats. I have had issues with it drying too fast in the winter months and was told to add some of the GF flow out thinner and that did slow it down enough to get and even wet coat otherwise here in the summer months the finish has not had to have anything added to it and it does dry and harden up faster than your typical waterborne finish.
> ...



*To comments from PT above, below is a portion of the post copied from directly above, as written on the can:* Note part highlighted with red text.


> How much catalyst do I mix in with the Conversion Varnish? Mix 10% of NCO catalyst by weight or volume to the Conversion Varnish (e.g. 32oz. of CV add 3.2 oz. Catalyst) . Use gloves and eyewear when mixing. Stir well for 5 minutes, let sweat in for 10 minutes, strain with fine cone filter. Mix only what you are going to use, left over product will solidify after 6-8 hours. Do not leave in gun or pot overnight, always clean out when done spraying. Wear a full filter respirator (NIOSH/MSHA approved), spray in spray booth with proper ventilation. The finish and hardener can only be mixed once. Caution: Do not re-cap Conversion Varnish once mixed with catalyst to avoid pressure build-up.


Clearly this product is different than those used by CApainter above- can says left over material cures hard. So you have to wonder if the poster from Woodweb is not having perfect results either? Hard means hard....NOT GEL! Be reminded the SPRAYED product dried fine on my TABLE, but my assumption is it air dried.  The only reason I think I have a problem, is because left over product is not setting up. GF Chemist confirmed it should harden. Good grief, all this fussing better not be for nothing. What is the purpose of a 2 part if it didn't chemically set???? 

To address PT comments above about the type of wood, stain, prep method, impurities...as if having an effect on the cure, all have nothing to do with the leftover material as it never contacted the project! And besides, this sprayer can is only used for waterborne finishes to prevent contamination.

One more test with a longer set time and a power tool with a paddle, and if it does not work....I am no science lab guy, I will just find another more user friendly product. My patience has run out. When this first happened and after I chatted with GF and was informed product is fussy, I called my supplier out of concern to give other contractors a heads up, and not have to go through my learning curve. Hope this thread has been of benefit.

Will confirm results of my next and last test. I am missing a detail somewhere, hopefully the power tool, adding catalyst real slow while mixing, and allowing to set very thorough before filtering, gives the desired result. And I will confirm with chemist if hard means hard or if gel is = in his definition of hard.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

When I have used catalyzed products, they gelled in large quantities, not rock hard, when left to dry. There is still solvent that needs to escape. Only 100% solids stuff has turned rock hard after cure time in a bucket for me.


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

Guys,
Compare these attachments of 1).original info on my can removed and scanned to file, and 2). photo of my catalyst bottle originally provided, to the  current web-site info shared above. Much less detail was provided me vs. that presently available, and I think more detail is still needed. Obviously GF took my concerns to heart and is trying to make the product mixing needs better understood for first time users. Also note different cure times on my catalyst bottle of 4 hrs to the 6-8 hrs stated on the can. At over $100 per gallon for both who wants to toss material prematurely? Is it 6-8 hrs or 4 hrs....huge difference IMO.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Always Learning said:


> Guys,
> Compare these attachments of 1).original info on my can removed and scanned to file, and 2). photo of my catalyst bottle originally provided, to the current web-site info shared above. Much less detail was provided me vs. that presently available, and I think more detail is still needed. Obviously GF took my concerns to heart and is trying to make the product mixing needs better understood for first time users. Also note different cure times on my catalyst bottle of 4 hrs to the 6-8 hrs stated on the can. At over $100 per gallon for both who wants to toss material prematurely? Is it 6-8 hrs or 4 hrs....huge difference IMO.


AL,

The pot life of 6-8 hours is the use time of the mixed concoction. The 4 hours on the catalyst bottle refers only to capping of the mixed concoction, and the potential for pressure to build up in a sealed container after that 4 hours of being mixed. The mixed material continues to create pressure as it chemically converts.


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

Updates. I did more testing of product. *Here is what I emailed to GF:* Pics attached


> I performed 2 additional tests since sending the email below, in which I implemented all professional advice shared on the threads referred to above. Attached are pics of test #4 (labeled as tray 1), and test #5 (tray 2). Both have 10 oz. + 1 oz catalyst = 11 total oz.
> * Tray 1 was the original batch I purchased, which still did not catalyze, even with adapting the new mixing method. Results are definitive that my initial batch was indeed "bad", in respect to that I could not get it to catalyze no matter what I tried. I still have material left over if you are interested for your own testing.
> *Tray 2 is the replacement batch you sent me, and per pics, clearly a reaction is occurring. After only a 5 minute mix and a 10 minute set time, and then filtering, I took these pics. Set material shown is that pulled from mixer and filter and then set on rosin paper. 2). Does the second batch look like it is setting up correct, or do you think too quickly based upon the filtered material? In spite of initial material that cured so quickly, it is 7 hours later and the rest of the material is not gelled in any manner. I can send product to you for your personal test confirmation. Even better, I could even drive it to you, and then perform the initial 15 minute prep along with you, and you can see firsthand I am not making up my method or results. I am sincerely trying to find resolution.
> 
> ...


*Here is their response:*


> Richard- I did send this on to Adam and Ryan they are both on the road this week but you will hear from one of them. Yes I still think you should stick to the Enduro Poly for table tops this is a very good product, I have many people using it for that purpose. It is water and chemical resistant and durable, most of my distributors are using this for that type of use and also for kitchen and bathroom cabinets.


*I talked to Ryan the chemist today:*


> The conversion varnish is actually a 2k polyurethane and was named by marketing a conversion varnish, against his advice


 He and I are going to meet at the factory in September to do more testing for me to verify if a 2k poly is for me....he did say mixing can be fussy....seems no specific method works for all users of the product.

Hope this was a benefit to all, and maybe prevents the frustration I went through....I learned alot...GF is working to help in what manner they can moving forward. Thank you for sharing all the great knowledge.


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## Always Learning (Mar 24, 2012)

2 more pics from test above.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Interesting stuff! Thanks


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