# Underbid by my competitor



## AngieM

Just need to vent 

I spent hours on an estimate for a new construction 4500 Sq ft house. Walls, trim, doors, and all. Tons of windows in an open atrium, just lots of work.

I know i spent more time on this than I should have but I really wanted to give an accurate bid instead of throwing a number out there. So after adding up the dimensions of every room and linear feet for trim, dividing it out for spread rates and production rates I came to a number of almost $20k.

Just to make sure that number wasn't outrageous for the amount of work required, I went back and pulled old invoices for new construction jobs I did years ago to compare before sending it.

I sent it off and got a quick reply saying he got 2 other bids in the $6500 rage! I'm not unhappy about losing the job as much as I'm frustrated about all the time wasted coming up with a reasonable bid just to be so grossly under bid.

Part of the job, I know. Can anyone relate? 

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## CApainter

Was the job scope the same? A 300% bid discrepancy seems too wide of a range to be apples to apples.


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## DeanV

A new construction job for $1.44/ sq. ft.????? Those are two crazy bids.


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## RH

Some companies enjoy racing each other to the bottom. Not that it helps you now, or will even make you feel better, but chances are both will be gone by this time next year.


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## MikeCalifornia

Its probably not that outrageous if the bidders were only doing tract type specs. One coat of heavy body flat on walls and ceilings, self priming. A decent enamel on the doors, trim, and wet areas. Any thing else would be an option change order. Its cheap, but can be done. Not my gig but, they are not doing custom work.


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## Rbriggs82

Being that it's new construction I wouldn't kick yourself over it. I just got done finishing one that was 1300sqft 1 bed for $12,800. 10ft ceilings, custom colors, crown throughout, window sash, stained doors.

The only reason why I did it and got the job is because I worked directly for the home owner and have done lots of work for them in their primary house. Had I bid for the GC against guys that only paint NC I would have been at least 300% higher too. 

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## PACman

Nothing screams "I'm a cheap a-hole" like a 5hitty paint job on a brand new 4500sqft house! All that money building that house...unbelievable. Like putting Goodyears on a Bentley. Just wish them good luck (they'll need it) and move on to the next one. There are plenty of people out there who don't want their brand new house to look like 5hit. You just gotta keep it up until you find them. Not much you can do to fix cheap skates.


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## RH

Have never done new construction myself (except some additions) but I’ve often heard that by the time contractors reach the point of painting, their budget is gone and so the cheapest job they can find will win out. But of course, there are those who will always go cheap regardless.


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## Whiskey

I had similar thing happen to me on new construction house. I measured one night and the next night I was working on the bid. I had my Paint and Materials estimated at $2500 and was working on the Labor portion of the bid when the Homeowner called asking for a number. I just told him what numbers I had at that time. He laugh at me and said he got a price from one of the tapers saying he would do it for $2600 with materials. I figured the taper is either stealing paint from his employer or he is just spraying everything with cheap flat with no primer. You can't compete with people doing that.


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## CApainter

This is one of those cases where maybe a premium painting company is competing within a general painting, or even an economy painting company field. And there's no question that the $6,500.00 job will be adequate enough to keep things moving.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

It wasn't a waste a time at all. If anything, you've sharpened your skills and furthered your knowledge with your production rates and costs associated with completing certain tasks. If your price was remotely similar to others and you didn't get the work, I'd say you should focus on communicating the value of your service and what sets you apart from your competitors. Since your price, (seemingly very reasonable btw), was nowhere near the other 2 bids, I'd say the GC is probably not anyone you'd want to work with anyways. He's either bluffing about already receiving way lower bids in an attempt to get you to lower your quote, or he's found desperate, unqualified, and/or uniformed painters who don't truly understand the cost of operating a legit business. 

These are the types of GC's who are always looking for a new painter on every job. Why do you think that is?


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## PACman

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> It wasn't a waste a time at all. If anything, you've sharpened your skills and furthered your knowledge with your production rates and costs associated with completing certain tasks. If your price was remotely similar to others and you didn't get the work, I'd say you should focus on communicating the value of your service and what sets you apart from your competitors. Since your price, (seemingly very reasonable btw), was nowhere near the other 2 bids, I'd say the GC is probably not anyone you'd want to work with anyways. He's either bluffing about already receiving way lower bids in an attempt to get you to lower your quote, or he's found desperate, unqualified, and/or uniformed painters who don't truly understand the cost of operating a legit business.
> 
> These are the types of GC's who are always looking for a new painter on every job. Why do you think that is?


And they only use the cheapest paint they can buy too!


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## CApainter

Whiskey said:


> I had similar thing happen to me on new construction house. I measured one night and the next night I was working on the bid. I had my Paint and Materials estimated at $2500 and was working on the Labor portion of the bid when the Homeowner called asking for a number. I just told him what numbers I had at that time. He laugh at me and said he got a price from one of the tapers saying he would do it for $2600 with materials. I figured the taper is either stealing paint from his employer or he is just spraying everything with cheap flat with no primer. You can't compete with people doing that.


I think you can compete if your business model is similar. And it's amazing just how much work the economy painter will get. Mainly because the general consumer consensus places less value on painting than they do other trades. I believe gardeners are valued higher than painters. Probably because gardening requires continuous maintenance. 

Ultimately, painting contractors who model and advertise themselves as premium painting companies, and who follow the best of painting practices, will continue to find themselves disappointed with the bidding results when pitted against companies whose model supports an economical and adequate painting product. Frankly, this is what the primer/finish products are marketed towards. And homeowners aren't the wiser.

Paranoia is the scourge of the conscientious painter.


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## CApainter

The title suggests that the OP was under cut by their competitor. I'm not sure they were categorically competitors.


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## AngieM

No doubt I don't fit the economy painting model. I'm way too slow and OCD for production painting.

You all make excellent points. I feel so much better. And I agree it wasn't a waste of time. Every time I do large bids like that, I get better. 

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## ParamountPaint

PACman said:


> Like putting Goodyears on a Bentley.


What sort of tires would be preferable on a Bentley? I've never had any troubles with Goodyear tires. Michelin, Firestone, Cooper, Pirelli, Continental?

They seem to price out the same (or thereabouts). I'll say that I don't have a Bentley, but that should be inferred from the fact that I'm in the painting business.:smile:


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## PNW Painter

I hate losing bids too, but I’d rather let someone else work for peanuts. You should ask the GC is you could see the other guys bids.

Companies that specialize in New Construction can blow my production rates out of the water. They also have much larger crews that are probably paid substantially less than I am. Of course they aren’t achieving the same quality level. 

I’ve also seen quite a few spec homes where all the walls and ceilings are the same product and color. If all they’re doing is spraying without backrolling there is a massive cost difference compared to applying different wall and ceiling products and backrolling everything. That easily adds 2x or 3x the amount of labor to the project.






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## Fman

On the bright side, they've got your number for when the winning bidder realizes he's so deep in the hole of the weeds that he bails! 

A buddy of mine was asked to bid by another friend on yet another friend's house. Despite a friend's recommendation, someone else beat his price by $100. Just a hundred bucks. Strangers. But, they bailed at first draw leaving a mess and the HO called my bud to fix everything. He told them exactly where to go to find someone to finish the job.


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## AngieM

Fman said:


> On the bright side, they've got your number for when the winning bidder realizes he's so deep in the hole of the weeds that he bails!
> 
> 
> 
> A buddy of mine was asked to bid by another friend on yet another friend's house. Despite a friend's recommendation, someone else beat his price by $100. Just a hundred bucks. Strangers. But, they bailed at first draw leaving a mess and the HO called my bud to fix everything. He told them exactly where to go to find someone to finish the job.


I can predict exactly what will happen. This painter probably shot off a number without really studying the specs. As soon as he starts he's going to either ask for more money, or like you said, bail to cut his losses. Then I'll get a call. It's happened before. We'll see. 

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## PNW Painter

Or they just ask for more money because the specs in their bid didn’t match the specs on the plans


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## deadend

...my life for the last year...scrambling to recover as we speak...


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## jennifertemple

That is not as bad as being informed your bid was precisely the same as a competitor and the HO calls to tell you that and we are going with the other guy. Gee, thanks for TMI on a job I will not be doing. I did not need to know the other bid was the same as mine to be rejected! That happened to me not long ago!


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## RH

jennifertemple said:


> That is not as bad as being informed your bid was precisely the same as a competitor and the HO calls to tell you that and we are going with the other guy. Gee, thanks for TMI on a job I will not be doing. I did not need to know the other bid was the same as mine to be rejected! That happened to me not long ago!


Yeah, that definitely sucks. Did you happen to ask why they went with him?


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## Woodco

I guess teh GC will be okay with one spray coat Painters Edge on the walls, and one spray coat of Pro Mar 700 on the trim. I see it with paint job in every new tract home here in Austin. Its mindbogglingly bad. Back in Reno, the tracts were at least painted with a quality paint when we were doing one coat blowouts. 

In the future ask the GC beforehand if they are after a good job, or the cheapest job they can get. It'll save you a lot of time.


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## CApainter

Woodco said:


> I guess teh GC will be okay with one spray coat Painters Edge on the walls, and one spray coat of Pro Mar 700 on the trim. I see it with paint job in every new tract home here in Austin. Its mindbogglingly bad. Back in Reno, the tracts were at least painted with a quality paint when we were doing one coat blowouts.
> 
> In the future ask the GC beforehand if they are after a good job, or the cheapest job they can get. It'll save you a lot of time.



That's precisely the point I was trying to make. I think Angie was over qualified for the job. Unfortunately, the builder didn't know how to differentiate what he was looking for before he invited bids.


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## RH

CApainter said:


> That's precisely the point I was trying to make. I think Angie was over qualified for the job. Unfortunately, the builder didn't know how to differentiate what he was looking for before he invited bids.


Not sure “over qualified “ is the right term, I suspect there are outfits geared to do quality work as well as being able to adjust to do work that may be deemed “good enough” for new construction. I think painters just need to figure out what the GC is after either by having an open discussion with him or from past experience working with him. 

But I know what you mean; there is an outfit in our area that seems to do the majority of the new construction work. They probably have their process down cold, have dealt with most of the main GCs in town, and therefore know what is expected in order for them to get the job. However, I would not recommend that Joe HO have them in to paint the inside of his home which is filled with furniture, has carpeting and hardwood throughout, and houses several pets and kids, as he would probably be less than pleased with the result. For that he needs somebody with Angie’s mindset.


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## CApainter

RH said:


> Not sure “over qualified “ is the right term, I suspect there are outfits geared to do quality work as well as being able to adjust to do work that may be deemed “good enough” for new construction. I think painters just need to figure out what the GC is after either by having an open discussion with him or from past experience working with him.
> 
> But I know what you mean; there is an outfit in our area that seems to do the majority of the new construction work. They probably have their process down cold, have dealt with most of the main GCs in town, and therefore know what is expected in order for them to get the job. However, I would not recommend that Joe HO have them in to paint the inside of his home which is filled with furniture, has carpeting and hardwood throughout, and houses several pets and kids, as he would probably be less than pleased with the result. For that he needs somebody with Angie’s mindset.


 
And there in lies the interesting dilemma with painting. The range of acceptable outcome of the finished product is so broad that it can negatively affect the processes, productivity, employment requirements, and general culture and values of a painting operation. Particularly, for painters who demand of themselves, the best of painting practices.


It can be argued that you can become a hybrid painter and hope that you are flexible enough to manage the range of expectations, or specialize in either premium painting, or economy painting. 


However, I'm not sure if there is any other trade that offers such a wide range of acceptable product outcome with such a narrow customer cost expectation.


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## RH

CApainter said:


> And there in lies the interesting dilemma with painting. The range of acceptable outcome of the finished product is so broad that it can negatively affect the processes, productivity, employment requirements, and general culture and values of a painting operation. Particularly, for painters who demand of themselves, the best of painting practices.
> 
> 
> It can be argued that you can become a hybrid painter and hope that you are flexible enough to manage the range of expectations, or specialize in either premium painting, or economy painting.
> 
> 
> However, I'm not sure if there is any other trade that offers such a wide range of acceptable product outcome with such a narrow customer cost expectation.


Sometimes the reply, “Sorry, but I don’t think our company is a good fit for your project.”, is an honest and accurate one and not just something to say in order to get out of doing a particular job.


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## CApainter

RH said:


> Sometimes the reply, “Sorry, but I don’t think our company is a good fit for your project.”, is an honest and accurate one and not just something to say in order to get out of doing a particular job.


 
I used to think that phrase was a little elitist, but it really does make a lot of sense. Particularly in the case of Angie, who thought she was providing a fair bid based on her service model, but found she was completely in the wrong ball park.


But here's the rub. Just because Angie was drastically under bid, doesn't mean the customer isn't getting exactly what they wanted. And it doesn't mean the painting contractor will not provide them with an acceptable product given the acceptable range of service and outcome.


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## vwbowman

There seems to be a tactic to low bid and then massive ad-ons at the end. As a paint salesman, the important part is to determine what level the GC or owner wants to make sure they are comparing apples to apples.


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## jennifertemple

RH said:


> Yeah, that definitely sucks. Did you happen to ask why they went with him?


I think it may simply have been that it was a "Him". I really did not want to discuss it with him, He left the message on my service and I just moved on, (Some what irritated, though.)


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## PACman

Try selling paint sometime. You get underbid by everyone. Even Drug Mart.


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## PACman

for example Lowe's has $15.00 off every gallon through memorial day. Rebate store credit though.


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## alcordova

AngieM said:


> Just need to vent
> 
> I spent hours on an estimate for a new construction 4500 Sq ft house. Walls, trim, doors, and all. Tons of windows in an open atrium, just lots of work.
> 
> I know i spent more time on this than I should have but I really wanted to give an accurate bid instead of throwing a number out there. So after adding up the dimensions of every room and linear feet for trim, dividing it out for spread rates and production rates I came to a number of almost $20k.
> 
> Just to make sure that number wasn't outrageous for the amount of work required, I went back and pulled old invoices for new construction jobs I did years ago to compare before sending it.
> 
> I sent it off and got a quick reply saying he got 2 other bids in the $6500 rage! I'm not unhappy about losing the job as much as I'm frustrated about all the time wasted coming up with a reasonable bid just to be so grossly under bid.
> 
> Part of the job, I know. Can anyone relate?
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


I was just introduced to useSmartQuote.com. AWESOME!!


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## BhamPainter

AngieM said:


> Just need to vent
> 
> I spent hours on an estimate for a new construction 4500 Sq ft house. Walls, trim, doors, and all. Tons of windows in an open atrium, just lots of work.
> 
> I know i spent more time on this than I should have but I really wanted to give an accurate bid instead of throwing a number out there. So after adding up the dimensions of every room and linear feet for trim, dividing it out for spread rates and production rates I came to a number of almost $20k.
> 
> Just to make sure that number wasn't outrageous for the amount of work required, I went back and pulled old invoices for new construction jobs I did years ago to compare before sending it.
> 
> I sent it off and got a quick reply saying he got 2 other bids in the $6500 rage! I'm not unhappy about losing the job as much as I'm frustrated about all the time wasted coming up with a reasonable bid just to be so grossly under bid.
> 
> Part of the job, I know. Can anyone relate?
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


I know prices vary widely by region, but your bid sounds like it's in the right range to me; maybe even a little low. Walls, ceilings, trim? I would think the paint would be more than $4k, unless you're using garbage. At $6500, that's less than $3k for the labor--I don't think so.


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## BhamPainter

BhamPainter said:


> I know prices vary widely by region, but your bid sounds like it's in the right range to me; maybe even a little low. Walls, ceilings, trim? I would think the paint would be more than $4k, unless you're using garbage. At $6500, that's less than $3k for the labor--I don't think so.


Sorry, just got caught in a zombie thread.


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## PApaints

PACman said:


> Nothing screams "I'm a cheap a-hole" like a 5hitty paint job on a brand new 4500sqft house! All that money building that house...unbelievable. Like putting Goodyears on a Bentley. Just wish them good luck (they'll need it) and move on to the next one. There are plenty of people out there who don't want their brand new house to look like 5hit. You just gotta keep it up until you find them. Not much you can do to fix cheap skates.


I agree completely with PACman.... other than I would probably take the effort to ask to see the other bids and try to save the sale if you want it. There is no possible way anyone can put any kind of paint job on a 4500 sf house for 6500. Not a chance, unless it's flat white walls, ceilings, and trim and they aren't doing any punchout after the cabinets and floors go in. 
As far as the venting goes.... yep, every good company faces that all the time. It never stops being frustrating. I have my bids cut in half all the time. Sometimes it works out for the cheap customer, sometimes they end up paying me more than I originally bid to come fix their problems. That's a great feeling.


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