# When good paint goes bad...another front door experience.



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

So I think I posted a while ago while struggling with the new BM Grand Entrance. I shot a first coat on my front doors, and on a clients front doors. Both were over properly prepped Fine Paints of Europe gloss oil black. These pics are of my clients door, but both had the same reaction on the second coat. 







































So the first three pics are after shooting the second coat. The first coat sprayed out great and looked great. I should have left well enough alone. I didn't sand between coats for the second coat, and waited at least 24 hours, but not more than two days. When I sprayed the second coat all heck broke loose. The coating acted really weird, and would not lay out. It did the opposite of lay down. I ended up wet sanding the mess out after freaking out for a few minutes. I came back to my clients house about a week or so later, giving it lots of time to cure. I sprayed another coat, heated up the material, all that good stuff, and it started acting weird again. This was kind of a cold day this time though, last chance of the season to finish their doors so admittedly it was about 52 degrees. Not ideal. When the paint started acting strange I just shot it on heavy and tipped it off with a brush. The last two pics are of the tipped off finish. Not perfect, but a lot better than the mess I had on my hands. 

On my house I used the same paint earlier in the summer, so temps were good. When the second coat acted weird I took a wet rag and wiped it off. They look good with one and that's all they're getting for now.

I guess the pics didn't post in order. I think the first two and last are pics of the bad finish, 3rd and 4th are after tipping off. Anyways, should be pretty obvious.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

wow!


----------



## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

I hate when something like this happens.

Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Did you get a BM rep out to look at them? Ugh nothing worse than doing all that work and the final coat ruin the finish.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Did you get a BM rep out to look at them? Ugh nothing worse than doing all that work and the final coat ruin the finish.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Blistering? What was the temp when you did them. Were they done in place or at the shop?


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Blistering? What was the temp when you did them. Were they done in place or at the shop?


The door in the photo was done in the fall. The temps were cool but within the specs. I heated up my paint to where it was warm to the touch, by placing the spray cup in a bucket of hot water. The paint wasn't hot though. My best guess and this is only a guess is that the coating has a certain amount of surface tension, and since I did not sand before the second coat it did not break the surface tension. I would be very interested in hearing from others who have sprayed high gloss BM Grand Entrance as to their results. 
When I did my own door the same thing happened and this was during 70 degree weather, not in the sun, so ideal temps really. Again, the first coat looked awesome and the second coat went to heck.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Did you get a BM rep out to look at them? Ugh nothing worse than doing all that work and the final coat ruin the finish.


I sent my rep photos. She forwarded them onto the regional reps but nobody had a clue. I had already wet sanded out the mess before I left that day, so there wouldn't have been much for them to see if they came out another day.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Blistering? What was the temp when you did them. Were they done in place or at the shop?


Actually it wasn't blistering as much as the paint crawled away from itself. That's what made me think of surface tension. I did it on site. Thanks for asking. I know you're a BM guy so let me know if you have any ideas.


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Wow  That really sucks


----------



## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

This thread begs the question....Why did you use the product again if it failed you once before?


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Delta Painting said:


> This thread begs the question....Why did you use the product again if it failed you once before?


Exactly!!
I thought the first time it was because I had cleaned my cup gun with krud kutter and hadn't rinsed it well enough between coats. So I assumed it was my fault and not the product. I didn't think there was a product issue because when I used it for the second time at my clients house (see I tested on my own house first) the first coat was flawless. It was only after running into trouble again while second coating that I realized there was some kind of problem in the recoat process. 
I'd love to hear from VP on this as it sounds like he's been using the product with success.


----------



## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

Seems like the first pic shows blistering. If not blistering due to application conditions then I'd say its a reaction from a contaminant. I would have scuffed between coats, especially being a gloss finish. Not sure what surface tension is. Maybe paint was too warm and cured to fast.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Andyman said:


> Seems like the first pic shows blistering. If not blistering due to application conditions then I'd say its a reaction from a contaminant. I would have scuffed between coats, especially being a gloss finish. Not sure what surface tension is. Maybe paint was too warm and cured to fast.


The coating has a very slick feel being an ultra high gloss. I do believe sanding between coats is very important. It was not stated that way on the TDS. 
Think of surface tension as when water hits your windshield. It kind of breaks up, as opposed to if you pour oil on a surface, it will all flow together. I'm probably not explaining it well,
So here is a good but very deep article on it. Page 13 actually starts getting into some useful info. My attention span and science training is rather limited for most of it. 
http://www.afcona.com.my/Slip_and_Leveling_agent_mar_2010.pdf


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

High surface tension means the coating won't flow out well, lowering the surface tension helps it flow out better.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Damon T said:


> High surface tension means the coating won't flow out well, lowering the surface tension helps it flow out better.


Would Advance High Gloss been any better given the conditions?


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Would Advance High Gloss been any better given the conditions?


I've had the same issue with the advance high gloss before.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Maybe we should all heed Brian's warning about BM experimenting with their products on our dime.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Would Advance High Gloss been any better given the conditions?


It was an exterior front door so I went with GRand Entrance. The store owner later told me he thought advance was ok to use on exterior front doors.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

This is the kind of stuff that we have bad dreams about. 

Were you using your HVLP system? I know I always worry about contaminates in my spray system and feel this can especially be an issue with HVLPs due to their smaller size. So other than water and thinner I don't use anything else to clean mine out. 

Other than the product itself being the issue I don't have any other suggestions.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

researchhound said:


> This is the kind of stuff that we have bad dreams about.
> 
> Were you using your HVLP system? I know I always worry about contaminates in my spray system and feel this can especially be an issue with HVLPs due to their smaller size. So other than water and thinner I don't use anything else to clean mine out.
> 
> Other than the product itself being the issue I don't have any other suggestions.


Hi RH
I have only ever cleaned out the sprayer with krud kutter solution once, which was the one time before second coating at my house. Since that time I've only used water to cleanup acrylic coatings. I thought maybe I had contaminated it, but when I shot the first coat at the clients house and it came out great I figured that the gun and coating weren't contaminated. I talked with some BM guys at the PDCA meeting tonight, and showed them the pics. Still no solid answers, other than give more time before second coating, and sand lightly before re coating. 
Meanwhile my Dalys rep tells me he has a new cabinet grade coating by C2 made with whey. Available in all color bases. Hmm. Another new coating to test...


----------

