# STOP Sherwin-Williams



## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

How much is too much? Sherwin-Williams posted a PROFIT of almost 4 BILLION dollars in the the first 3 quarters of 2011 in retail sales. This record profit was directly linked to the 5 price increases they passed on to us. Now they are planning another price increase for the new year. This keeps their stock price up, their investors happy, their Higher ups rich.
How about us the contractors and consumers. We have to stop them now
or this will continue.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

False...I have nothing else to say.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I wonder if any contractors passed on the 5% increase to their own customers and saw record profits as a result. I am so raising prices.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Sales at Sherwin-Williams rose 14%, to $2.48 billion from $2.17 billion. Yea don't know where you pulled 4 billion in profits from. Maybe your arse. 

Source

Seems they can pay the IRS now.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

Ok, I do have more to say. SW did not have a profit of 4 billion dollars. I would ask the OP to show us where is got that information.


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

DuPont Co. (DD), the world’s biggest maker of titanium dioxide, may struggle to maintain profits from the white pigment because mining companies supplying the industry with raw materials haven’t kept pace with demand. 
Developing economies are consuming more titanium dioxide, mostly used in paint, as living standards improve. China uses less than 1 kilogram per person annually compared with as much as 4 kilograms in developed countries, according to data from Iluka Resources Ltd. (ILU), which mines titanium-bearing ore. The pigment, also known by its chemical formula TiO2, has climbed 38 percent this year, according to ICIS-LOR data. 
The cost of rutile, a raw material containing as much as 95 percent Ti02, has jumped 77 percent in 2011 and is heading for the biggest yearly gain since at least 1997, according to Metal Bulletin data. Average prices may advance 62 percent to $1,700 a metric ton in 2012, according to a RBC Capital Markets presentation this month. There isn’t likely to be any “significant” new supply until at least 2015, RBC said. 
“The market will stay constrained in terms of supply for a significant amount of time,” Tom Casey, chief executive officer of Tronox Inc., a U.S. pigment producer, said Nov. 10 at a conference in Hong Kong organized by industry consulting group TZ Minerals International. 
Rutile, found in mineral-sand deposits, is upgraded into purified titanium dioxide, which is then sold as a white pigment that adds opacity to paint, plastics and paper. 
*Raising Prices *

DuPont said last month that earnings at its performance- chemicals unit doubled to $593 million, helped by the company passing on higher raw-material costs to buyers of its TiO2. Asia-Pacific prices for the pigment will rise by $200 a ton on Jan. 1, DuPont said yesterday in a statement. DuPont probably will announce similar 5 percent price increases around the world, Mark Gulley, a New York-based analyst at Ticonderoga Securities, said today in a telephone interview. 
Profit margins won’t grow next year because higher TiO2 prices may be offset by rising ore costs, Jeffrey J. Zekauskas, an analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. in New York, said in an Oct. 26 note. 
“We see continued demand growth in 2012 and beyond,” said Gregg Schmidt, a spokesman for Wilmington, Delaware-based DuPont. He declined to comment on predictions for TiO2 and ore prices.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Unless the OP is willing to cite the source, this thread will be deleted.

SW is entitled to a profit, just as any business is.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Before its deleted 

CONGRADULATIONS SHERWIN WILLIAMS for having a fantastic year :notworthy:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

RCP said:


> Unless the OP is willing to cite the source, this thread will be deleted.
> 
> SW is entitled to a profit, just as any business is.


Agreed, but SW is more than just SW paint. Does this number include EVERYTHING under the SW umbrella? All the private label products, sundries etc etc?


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

For the first nine months of 2011, the company's net sales increased 13.8 percent to a record $6.7 billion, while diluted net income increased 12.7 percent to $3.98 per common share. 
Net sales at Sherwin-Williams paint stores grew 10.2 percent to $1.42 billion for the quarter, helped by both increased paint prices (of 8 percent to 9 percent) and improving paint sales, and 7.8 percent to $3.65 billion for the first nine months of the year. 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/10/post_90.html

Sw guy should really do more research before stating the thread states false info..


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

:thumbup: Life is good :thumbup:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

optimal said:


> Sw guy should really do more research before stating the thread states false info..


He works at SW they don't know... You should know that by now


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## Conley (Dec 6, 2010)

Sounds like I need to start making paint, or mineing ore.:blink:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

when shwms starts carrying behr, ill shop there,,,


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

The information about Sherwin-Williams, theri profit and their greed are accurate. Check what you paid for paint 1 year ago versus your cost is today. Yes everyone is entitled to a profit but SW is out of control.
How many times are you going to buy the story about raw materials, transportation,etc. I meet with the reps. the district reps,and told them of my concerns, The result: another price increase. Check the SW stock price. Look at the picture of CEO annoncing profits to the stock holders. Then pictue SW the ONE% and us the Ninety Nine%.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ncaputo said:


> The information about Sherwin-Williams, theri profit and their greed are accurate. Check what you paid for paint 1 year ago versus your cost today. Yes everyone is entitled to a profit but SW is out of control.
> How many times are you going to buy the story about raw materials, transportation,etc. I meet with the reps. the district reps,and told them of my concerns, The result: another price increase. Check the SW stock price. Look at the picture of CEO annoncing profits to the stock holders. Then pictue SW the ONE% and us the Ninety Nine%.


What is your source for the original post? 
Are you a non profit paint contractor?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

No matter how this matter is resolved, consider my prices raised.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Let see...you have a total of two posts and both are denigrating SW.

Did you just get fired?


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

Occupy Paint Talk!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

You are crying to a large portion of small business people who are in business to.........
wait its coming..................................make a PROFIT!


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

Google: Sherwin-Williams reports record sales and profits for third quarter of 2011. Read it for yourself.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I think he is a Sherwin Williams suit that came here to brag, and troll us at the same time.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ncaputo said:


> Google: Sherwin-Williams reports record sales and profits for third quarter of 2011. Read it for yourself.


Just asking you to link your source. 
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/10/post_90.html
is what I read. 

Why does their profit bother you? They own a great more than the local paint stores.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I hear they lay some pretty serious carpet too.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

"Sw guy should really do more research before stating the thread states false info.."

I don't need to do more research. 

There is a huge difference between sales and profit. 

Again, I would like to see a source that says SW made 4 billion in profit. When you all say what your sales are for the year, is that all profit?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

In my fantasy world they would be. I think he misread who he was replying to.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

I love S.W. for so many, many reasons.

and always will.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

They shouldn't make any money. 

They don't deserve it.

They should lets us have paint for free.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Went on yahoo finance and looked at sherwin's income statement and from an EBIT point of view - they've made 9.63% net profit margin. Their Gross profit is on track to be about 4 Billion by year's end. The net profit margin, i.e. PROFIT, will be about 1/2 a billion by year's end. It's not companies like Sherwin Williams that makes me made at capitalism - these aren't the companies to be mad at. If painters weren't such an inbreed bunch - they'd learn to pass on costs to customers and mark up for profit as well and have real businesses that are sustainable.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Where to start.

Sales and profit aren't the same. 

Sales are up, profit will increase to. 

SW is a global company, sales numbers come from SW stores worldwide, automotive paint, floorcovering, industrial, chemical, sundries, vendors, market gain, 38 new stores this year, acquistions of companies 3 in last two years-which increase overall revenues.

Wouldn't you want to hear that your supplier is showing some success? It would be nice to know the place I rely on is going to be around, they will have employees to help me, develop new products to make painting easier. 

All paint companies are experiencing raw material costs, look under yahoo finance once in awhile, look up the paint companies and raw materials suppliers, they show exactly the pressure that is being dealt. Check out what steel prices and thinner prices (up/down) are doing.

"increased $814.5 million, or 13.8%, to $6.70 billion in nine months due to selling price increases, acquisitions and strong organic sales growth by the Global Finishes Group (worldwide group)."

Doing business is more expensive, competitive pressures are harder than ever, increased wages for employees, increased real estate costs, taxes, fines and fees, litigation, research and development, marketing, advertising, raw material costs, etc..


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

the real question is who here has sw stock, and is now a good time to get in??


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Just stop using their product and let them know why..That's the only power a consumer has.I rarely use Benjamin Moore anymore for the same reason.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Went on yahoo finance and looked at sherwin's income statement and from an EBIT point of view - they've made 9.63% net profit margin. Their Gross profit is on track to be about 4 Billion by year's end. The net profit margin, i.e. PROFIT, will be about 1/2 a billion by year's end. It's not companies like Sherwin Williams that makes me made at capitalism - these aren't the companies to be mad at. If painters weren't such an inbreed bunch - they'd learn to pass on costs to customers and mark up for profit as well and have real businesses that are sustainable.


It is very tough on the painters. Your material costs increase, your personal expenses increase and you compete against others who bid jobs just to make a couple bucks.

Based on your numbers up above, if you based a painting company on those percentages, You would do a $1000 job and net $96.30 Not sure if that's accurate.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> the real question is who here has sw stock, and is now a good time to get in??


 Not unless you like to buy high and sell low.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

8% increase in February and another 3-5 more by years end for SW. I'm so happy, it should weed the hacks out a bit.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

paintpimp said:


> It is very tough on the painters. Your material costs increase, your personal expenses increase and you compete against others who bid jobs just to make a couple bucks.
> 
> Based on your numbers up above, if you based a painting company on those percentages, You would do a $1000 job and net $96.30 Not sure if that's accurate.


Are you asking if I would run a company on a 9.63% net profit margin? Simple answer is no, but then again I didn't make any profit last year - so it's more than I did last year. I have quickbooks with real accounts and run my business like a real business, not a shared checking account with a g/f or wife. Most guys think profits are what they have after they paid for materials and labor. Most successful house builder/remodeler in my area I think does about 17-19% profit margin - so they are profiting $170-$190 for every $1,000 job.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Went on yahoo finance and looked at sherwin's income statement and from an EBIT point of view - they've made 9.63% net profit margin. Their Gross profit is on track to be about 4 Billion by year's end. The net profit margin, i.e. PROFIT, will be about 1/2 a billion by year's end. It's not companies like Sherwin Williams that makes me made at capitalism - these aren't the companies to be mad at. If painters weren't such an inbreed bunch - they'd learn to pass on costs to customers and mark up for profit as well and have real businesses that are sustainable.


I think I prefer wh-ore over inbred.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Imagine if SW did not turn a profit and go bankrupt. I know my business is better for the relationships I have with SW employee's and their products.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Imagine if SW did not turn a profit and go bankrupt. I know my business is better for the relationships I have with SW employee's and their products.


I could careless - have not used a SW paint product in over 15 years. Nothing against them, just for some reason I have had no need to.

Pat


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## HJ61 (Nov 14, 2011)

FYI, SW does ton of automotive paint as well, unlike most other paint manufacturers.


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## Ace Painting (Jan 11, 2011)

It does get crazy. It seems everytime I go to sw my prices are higher.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I've never liked SW in the first place, now that I understand they are greedy profit orientated capitalists, I will now never step foot in one of their stores.

anyone know of a paint company that is owned by the gov't and loses money every year and needs tax supported subsidies to survive? That's where I'm gonna do business.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> I've never liked SW in the first place, now that I understand they are greedy profit orientated capitalists, I will now never step foot in one of their stores.
> 
> anyone know of a paint company that is owned by the gov't and loses money every year and needs tax supported subsidies to survive? That's where I'm gonna do business.


You are looking for the Amtrack of paint stores? :blink:​


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> You are looking for the Amtrack of paint stores? :blink:​


 
:laughing: good one:thumbsup:


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

a few thoughts
1. every business is in it of the money. 
2. SW is something like the 2or 3 largest paint co in the world (ICI, Akzo nobel) they own, purdy, dutch boy, pratt lambert, ML campbell. etc....
3. are these numbers based on last year? did they have a lost last year and now are making up for it?
4. profit can be based on many,many things. how many empolyees have been let go? you can take that number of the bottom line. 
5. econ 101, you can word any report anyway you want to in order to make the shareholders happy. 
BM a few years back fired many people to make the bottom line look better for the shareholders. PPG did as well. HD hires cheap workers. Walmart pays min. i think they are all publicly traded companies. and yet they post a profit nearly everytime
any time there is a price increase it is often more then the cost of raw stuff. transporting and tint the paint has also gone up. you may not pay for that, but we do. this year we where up 1.5% and had a party. if we are up 9% we made wine form water. yes there is a major diffence between sales and profit, i would beilive 4 bill in sales. not in profit.
neverless,misquoted or not it is a good topic. I am not sitting in front of wall street with the whole 'movement deilo" 
just do what i try to do shop local knowing you money is well spend.
just some thoughts i have no proof on most of this. or as others call it the world in mikes head:thumbsup:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think the CEO of SW should run for president.Maybe the US would show a nice profit.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> I think the CEO of SW should run for president.Maybe the US would show a nice profit.


Yeah but the rest of us would have to pay for it..........oh wait........


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Imagine if SW did not turn a profit and go bankrupt. I know my business is better for the relationships I have with SW employee's and their products.


Even though I stick all up in your craw, because of that post, I believe that if you offered I would allow you to buy me a beer.
but not that domestic light in a can you drink.

S.W. has proven themselves worthy through issue remediation on several important issues, handing out my card from directly beneath the tray in the register (all others get washed away on the "wall of fancy cards and other homemad drivel), offer greatly reduced pricing based on the most used products, 3 lunch "meetings" on the S.W. charge account, free baseball tickets ( GREAT seats), and best of all...free shirts!!!

obviously the personal attention that only S.W. can provide due to outstanding sales/profits is the core of my relationship.

I hope they break $10 billion next year.

free vans with a purchase of 35 gallons Duration exterior.

rock.on.sw!!!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Can't beat free ticket, lunch and shirts. 
Oh wait...... 

Good product and service. In which SW has a history of. I much rather brag about that than getting tickets or a lunch at Chilies.


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Let see...you have a total of two posts and both are denigrating SW.
> 
> Did you just get fired?


Maybe he works for a big box?


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

The local BM dealer charges for shirts with his store logo on them. So I have to support Sherwin for keeping free clothes on my back


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Can't beat free ticket, lunch and shirts.
> Oh wait......
> 
> Good product and service. In which SW has a history of. I much rather brag about that than getting tickets or a lunch at Chilies.


chillies? with that profit it should be Ruths Steak house.


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

madochio said:


> chillies? with that profit it should be Ruths Steak house.


Ruth's Chris Steak house, a subsidiary of Sherman Willams!


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

Here's my take on this (being a manufacturer and all).

Do we live in a capitalist society? Do we all exploit opportunities to our own benefit (you're lying if you say no)? Don't we all who are in business have the opportunity to make a profit (notice I didn't say "right to a profit").

I consider SW to be my #1 competitor, and there are 50 things they do better than me, if I were a 6 billion dollar company I'd better be good at lots of stuff too. But I do compete and I do profit from opportunity, just like SW does. Just like everyone does (or should).

Are GM's profits obscene? What about General Electric? They are more profitable that nearly everyone on the planet. Who do you go after when you take the big guys down? Am I going to be persecuted next because I made a few bucks more than "protester x"?

I think the downturn in the economy has been tough for everyone, but I also think it's a great equalizer that weeds out the "hacks" in the marketplace. Those who remain when the dust clears make for a much stronger and profitable market, for everyone. Those who chose not to change with the times will be passed by.


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## tmort024 (May 23, 2010)

Every time SW increases prices, buy more SW stock!! Make up for the increased cost of materials by riding the stock higher.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

I don't care what their profits are. I only care that my price with them is cheaper than their competitions, and they've stood by me when I needed them to unlike their competitions. :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

SW prices go up the most for those who do not buy large volumes, i.e. the DIY'er. While the pros prices are somewhat more stabilized, even though the cost of doing business and raw materials are running rampant.

In other words, the public (DIY'ers) are in effect subsidizing the pros.

so who's complaining ?

I think I found that socialist paint manufacturer I was looking for :thumbsup:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I swear to god, every 5 minutes someone is on here reporting a price increase from SW - you'd think the price would be up to $150/gallon by now.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Instead of worrying about how much another individual or company is making why not look at it as an incentive to try and do better yourself.This jealous thinking will lead to your own down fall. Remember some (one) started SW and it has grown to what it is Today. Why not shoot for that yourself.Try contributing instead of taking.
http://excellence.sherwin.com/history_timeline.html


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

The local store just posted that beer will be increasing approx $1.00 per case


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I swear to god, every 5 minutes someone is on here reporting a price increase from SW - you'd think the price would be up to $150/gallon by now.


I know, every time I see a new thread on it I cringe! Scott wrote a good piece here,



> The whole material argument is a bit silly, as we all know that materials are typically at most 15% of the cost of our projects. I have always felt that if trimming a couple of bucks off a gallon of paint was critical to my ability to land work, then I would be better served to market better and learn to sell at a higher price.





aaron61 said:


> Instead of worrying about how much another individual or company is making why not look at it as an incentive to try and do better yourself.This jealous thinking will lead to your own down fall. Remember some (one) started SW and it has grown to what it is Today. Why not shoot for that yourself.Try contributing instead of taking.
> http://excellence.sherwin.com/history_timeline.html


Great point Aaron!


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

RCP said:


> Unless the OP is willing to cite the source, this thread will be deleted.
> 
> SW is entitled to a profit, just as any business is.


 

Please do not delete thread. The OP may sound like an occupy wall streeter but Optimal posted an very important post about the cost of Tianium Dioxide. Dupont, has bought out many distributors and has a huge share of the market and can dictate terms and prices.
I understand Labor is our main cost, but this is still an important issue.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

There are several good points in the thread now, it's just when you have a first time poster making a statement like that, the thread can quickly tank. Glad to see that was not the case here, thanks guys!


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Cusingeorge said:


> Here's my take on this (being a manufacturer and all).
> 
> Do we live in a capitalist society? Do we all exploit opportunities to our own benefit (you're lying if you say no)? Don't we all who are in business have the opportunity to make a profit (notice I didn't say "right to a profit").
> 
> ...


I would be curious if you could tell the board about your options regarding Titanium Dioxide now as compared to 5 and 10 years ago?


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

As stated before we are all here to make money. I want everyone to make a profit. I have worked for management companies that have dictated how much profit they felt I was entitled to make on them. They set the prices and I had to justify any price increase by showing my increased costs. I am glad I got away from that. Nobody has a right to dictate anothers profit margain in a capitalistic society. Though the man in the oval office might think differently.
OP I think you should start an occupy S.W. movement. As a N.Y.er I found it disgusting how those people were allowed to dictate to a whole City while they hurt small business with their retro 60's behavior.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I actually interviewed a Benjamin Moore spokesperson in the residential contractor segment about this paint price issue and will be putting that info out over the next several weeks if anyone is interested in hearing manufacturer answers to these questions.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I actually interviewed a Benjamin Moore spokesperson in the residential contractor segment about this paint price issue and will be putting that info out over the next several weeks if anyone is interested in hearing manufacturer answers to these questions.


Absolutely not! No one is interested in the truth, we can't handle the truth! :jester:

Seriously though, that would be great Scott.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Absolutely not! No one is interested in the truth, we can't handle the truth! :jester:
> 
> Seriously though, that would be great Scott.


now what makes you think the manufacture is going to tell you the truth:jester:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I have seen the interview, interesting stuff! It will be posted here soon.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> now what makes you think the manufacture is going to tell you the truth:jester:


You are right, Dave. The conspiracy theorists would find problems even if SW and BM offered all painttalk members free paint for all of 2012!

Meanwhile, I (and many contractors) have found the major manufacturers to be reaching out and actually trying to work WITH contractors more than ever. The smart ones are anyways.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

RCP said:


> There are several good points in the thread now, it's just when you have a first time poster making a statement like that, the thread can quickly tank. Glad to see that was not the case here, thanks guys!


I think the poster is confusing gross sales with profits - can you blame him? Seems like 80% of the guys in this trade make this same mistake and never learn.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Dave Mac said:


> now what makes you think the manufacture is going to tell you the truth:jester:


I have faith in Scott to slap the guy upside his head every time his nose starts to grow.

Pat


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

The funny thing about paint is my mentor use to tell me...._if you think it costs them more than $5 a gallon to make, you're knaive! _I don't know how true that is - I'd think it costs them a lot more - but a hardware store clerk, who had to finally stop selling paint told me just the costs of tints is so crazy - his average gross profit per can was like 2-3 bucks - and on the heavily tinted cans, he only broke even. Quarts are the only thing paint stores recuperate their money on - because folks always need quarts - and even though they'll balk at paying 50% for 1/4th the paint - it's still a 50% savings for some projects they dont' a full gallon for, and that's why paint stores will never lower price on quarts to 1/4th of a gallon price.


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

If you paint a room for $ 500 and the stock is $100 then increases by 10 percent is the job still worth taking. If not, send it my way, we will do it. A lot of people get hung up on the couple dollars here and there. Quit btchn and get painting and make some money


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ramsden Painting said:


> If you paint a room for $ 500 and the stock is $100 then increases by 10 percent is the job still worth taking. If not, send it my way, we will do it. A lot of people get hung up on the couple dollars here and there. Quit btchn and get painting and make some money


I think the real reason they are bitching is because they work for such cheap rates already - paying a real price for paint is enough to put them over the edge. That's why I welcome price increases, not only does it give more marketing dollars for paint companies to spend and help improve our sales, it slowly gets rid of the hacks - because now they have to raise their pricing closer and closer to a real contractor yet have no 'value' other than price to sell their work. Thus they slowly get eliminated. Cheap prices only helps the contractor when he's the only one in the universe getting the cheap pricing. I wish more guys would understand this.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> The funny thing about paint is my mentor use to tell me...._if you think it costs them more than $5 a gallon to make, you're knaive!_


I am sure when paint was still retailing for under $20 that was true. But then there were so many other costs needed to package and ship, plus the retail markup. 




plainpainter said:


> a hardware store clerk, who had to finally stop selling paint told me just the costs of tints is so crazy - his average gross profit per can was like 2-3 bucks - and on the heavily tinted cans, he only broke even. Quarts are the only thing paint stores recuperate their money on - because folks always need quarts - and even though they'll balk at paying 50% for 1/4th the paint - it's still a 50% savings for some projects they dont' a full gallon for, and that's why paint stores will never lower price on quarts to 1/4th of a gallon price.


Smart retailers understand the costs of the tints and price custom made accent colors more than pastels. I can see why that hardware store no longer sells paint.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

Maybe you don't care how much you are charged for the same or in some cases an inferior product but some people do. SW has increased their prices to everyone, including contractors nearly 40 % in the past 12 months. They will continue to do this as long as you don't speak up and try to stop this. Have you increased your prices the same 40%? I doubt it because eventually you will price yourself out of business. When you purchase gas or go to the grocery store do you have this same attitude. Let's just pay what they want, I don't think so.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Ummmmm our prices haven't increased 40% on SW products... buy paint wherever you want, stop purchasing paint at SW if you don't like the prices..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Would anyone like to see the new sw calendars hanging in my shop?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Would anyone like to see the new sw calendars hanging in my shop?


That's why they increase prices on us!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Did anyone else get the camo hat?


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## Rob (Aug 9, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Did anyone else get the camo hat?


Yes, and my wife is pissed she didn't!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

WTF, sending my rep a terse email right now!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

RCP said:


> There are several good points in the thread now, it's just when you have a first time poster making a statement like that, the thread can quickly tank. Glad to see that was not the case here, thanks guys!



why are you looking at me?

neps is waaaaaaay worse...

truth.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> why are you looking at me?
> 
> neps is waaaaaaay worse...
> 
> truth.


Ya, but he sends pics, sans tribbles!


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

Lee Decorating Corp. said:


> I would be curious if you could tell the board about your options regarding Titanium Dioxide now as compared to 5 and 10 years ago?


Options of Titanium or "opinion" on Titanium?

If you meant options, in the last 5-10 years, the number of suppliers has diminished (we used to get ours from Kerr McGee when I was in the plant) and the quality of Ti02 has diminished also, if you want the good stuff, it costs more (making that pure, bright white). Sure, you can get cheap Titanium from China and probably other places, but the color is off, they don't grind well and don't offer the opacity (hiding) demanded by our customers.


If you want my opinion, getting Titanium in the grade and quantities needed is getting harder, I think there was a Ti02 plant in New Orleans (or nearby) that got wiped out during Katrina (there's one reason the price went up), then the unrest in Egypt (where a great deal of the fine Ti02 comes from) has caused procurement issues and, of course, higher prices. Since we are much, much smaller than BM, SW, Valspar, etc.., our RMC (raw material cost) is going to be higher since we don't buy nearly as much as they do. 

There has been talk in the industry of an "offset" to Ti02 that is easier to get, cheaper and works the same, thing is, we haven't seen it, and I bet no one else has either. I am pretty confident that the big boys are working to reduce their dependency on Ti02, either by re-formulation and using less or developing an offset to Ti02 that eliminates the need entirely. Our need for Ti02 is much less, since we make only wood coatings, pigmented products are a much smaller percentage of our product offering.

My cost on Ti02 has climbed nearly 80% in since the first quarter of 2010.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Thank you, awesome answer.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

When you are notified of a price increase, what does your supplier do to help you understand the situation and the justification for the increase? Many of my customers are manufacturers too, so we all have a fairly good pulse on each other's costs, but what about the end-user?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Cusingeorge said:


> When you are notified of a price increase, what does your supplier do to help you understand the situation and the justification for the increase?


Print off this thread and have it on my counter. 


Seriously, if I had conversations with every customer that questions a price increase, i'd never do anything else all day. Its easier to say "raw material costs" than go into the long drawn out explanation. If I have time I will, but mostly its just the simple RMC.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

The big boys don't really explain anything . The smaller guy I deal with does and it does ease the pain as I know the reason.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

*Price gouging*

Maybe you just don't check your prices at SW but you should. I checked with our local store today in the past 12 months SW has increased prices across the board 38%. The proposed increase coming in January is an aditional 12%. Yes their cost of producing paint has risen; however, if they made the highest profit ever at SW for the year so far do they really need to keep making even more at our expense. We buy at one of the lowest levels (yes there are levels based on use and volume) and our prices are still high. No we are not jealous of SW we are just stuck with their greedy ways. 
Another way to look at it is: last year you paid $20.00 for a gallon (I mean less than a gallon READ the label it's not 1 Gallon) this year you are going to pay $30.00 for the same product. Did you change the price of that $200.00 extra to $300.00? How about that $2,000.00 job to a $3,000.00
job? Using the logic that some of you have given that is what should happen. That is great but I'll bet you would lose almost every bid you increased by 50%.
If we don't speak up as a group SW will continue their greed. Enough is enough.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Caputo, come on now....gallons are short filled to allow for colorant. If it was full, it would over fill when we tint it. Deep bases are even shorter filled. Dont worry, its full when it leaves the store. 55 gal drums have only 53 gallons in them (which is what we charge for....53).


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I figure all bids based on cost of materials and labor to do the job. I want competive paint prices, but just because paint goes up x % does not mean the entire job cost goes up the same %.


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## Mplspaint01 (Apr 20, 2011)

DeanV said:


> I figure all bids based on cost of materials and labor to do the job. I want competive paint prices, but just because paint goes up x % does not mean the entire job cost goes up the same %.


Agreed, let's use some critical thinking skills here. If you are marking up jobs like that, YES, you are going to lose them! Unless you are working for free and only billing for paint!

My confusion with the title of this thread is that SW is not the only vendor to have increases. This is a world wide issue tied to the prices of raw materials, even if you won't accept it. 

Should we also stop our paint manufactures from developing new products for us, from providing us with critical financing, from providing us with service in store and on site, from sending me leads on new jobs, and yes... also from providing me with those nice freebies? 

Maybe we ought to be looking at our preferred manufacture and these relationships as exactly that, business relationships. I find that often my rep is willing negotiate with me on these increases, especially at the end of the year when they are looking to hit their numbers.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

ncaputo said:


> Maybe you don't care how much you are charged for the same or in some cases an inferior product but some people do. SW has increased their prices to everyone, including contractors nearly 40 % in the past 12 months. They will continue to do this as long as you don't speak up and try to stop this. Have you increased your prices the same 40%? I doubt it because eventually you will price yourself out of business. When you purchase gas or go to the grocery store do you have this same attitude. Let's just pay what they want, I don't think so.


My prices have gone up in the last year, but no where near 40%. I called up my store manager and told him I didn't want to pay that much for PM200 and Master Hide and he dropped my prices on both. No offense or anything, but if you're going to whine this much you might at least get your info right. You just lost all credibility (not that you had much to start with) because you started making stuff up. You honestly sound like an ignorant little guy who was just charged more than he wanted to pay so OBVIOUSLY someone is screwing you. You don't seem to have any real understanding of how the paint business works (not that I'm an expert) and all you see is _price increase = GREED!_


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

mpminter said:


> My prices have gone up in the last year, but no where near 40%. I called up my store manager and told him I didn't want to pay that much for PM200 and Master Hide and he dropped my prices on both. No offense or anything, but if you're going to whine this much you might at least get your info right. You just lost all credibility (not that you had much to start with) because you started making stuff up. You honestly sound like an ignorant little guy who was just charged more than he wanted to pay so OBVIOUSLY someone is screwing you. You don't seem to have any real understanding of how the paint business works (not that I'm an expert) and all you see is _price increase = GREED!_


Exactly.


Paint prices are only "part" of a painters "overhead". When paint goes up, you raise your costs accordingly, not the entire job costs.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

it is funny if you look at the retail price for SW paint vs a con't price...it is huge. too many time i get a new con't that claims they get 30% off retail prices at SW and wants the same here. it is hard to explain to them that this is not the way we do our pricing. personally i think that without an account at SW you would be better off not shopping with them. last week i went into a store that i never have been in ( all the local SW know who i am) and ask for a retail price and then i did ohhhh yea so and so said i could use there account. and the price dropped almost 40%...anyone else see an issue with this? I know that this is a painters dealio, but really the mark up is that high for DIY that is greed. and make no mistake on it they are making money at 40% off retail for con't


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Nobody pays the price marked on paint at SW. Homeowners get hooked up with that "contractor price" it's a gimmick. Makes the customer feel good because they saved money, or so they think. They will keep coming back cuz they got the hook up over there.


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## optimal (Feb 5, 2010)

Sw pricing. Reason behind the high pricing scheme is so sw can run sales for 30%. This way the consumer feels like they are getting a high priced product at a discount. It is a way to create foot traffic through the retail stores. Once foot traffic is created other essential tools for painting are bought and they tend to be priced higher then box stores.

I like Sw and use the products daily. The problem with Sw pricing is list price. When ever i need a high grade commercial paint the list price is off the wall. If they would come up with some realistic pricing for there product and offer a discount like hd life would be easier. They have so many products and you can not get pricing for every single one. It is more of a hassle then anything. Word of advice, build more of a friendship with your rep and store manager and not a business relationship. Friends help friends out!!


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## saul (Mar 10, 2009)

*Good money*

If it right they have more money now...


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I had a store manager at Glidden get mad because I was trying to talk him down on some prices. He asked if I talk Walmart down when buying a gallon of milk. My reply was no I don't, but that gallon of milk cost everyone the same no matter who they are so if you charge my competitors what you charge me or me what you charge them then I will no longer attempt to haggle, but as long as I know someone is paying less then me then negotiations are in order.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

In Demand said:


> My reply was no I don't, but that gallon of milk cost everyone the same no matter who they are so if you charge my competitors what you charge me or me what you charge them then I will no longer attempt to haggle, but as long as I know someone is paying less then me then negotiations are in order.


LOL. 

Right, but not everyone BUYS the same amount either. I bet if I went into Wal-Mart and ordered a pallet of milk, I'd get a better price. 

Contractors, just by the label "contractor" feel entitled to a better deal. Ok fine, I get it, but just because you're a contractor doesnt entitle you to the same pricing as someone buying more than you. Guys negotiate all the time, its an everyday thing for us. Sometimes it feels more like the farmers market than an actual store. So thats why I like the tiered system and an open book. Heres the prices, and heres what you need to spend at each level.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> LOL.
> 
> Right, but not everyone BUYS the same amount either. I bet if I went into Wal-Mart and ordered a pallet of milk, I'd get a better price.
> 
> Contractors, just by the label "contractor" feel entitled to a better deal. Ok fine, I get it, but just because you're a contractor doesnt entitle you to the same pricing as someone buying more than you.


typical bm dealer...sw makes me feel like #1 big buyer everytime i cross their threshold.


did i mention free shirts?


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

ncaputo said:


> ]When you purchase gas or go to the grocery store do you have this same attitude. Let's just pay what they want, I don't think so.


Has something changed since I went on holidays? Do we now get to negotiate gas prices at the pump? Or the price of bananas at the grocery store?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

WisePainter said:


> typical bm dealer...sw makes me feel like #1 big buyer everytime i cross their threshold.
> 
> 
> did i mention free shirts?


I'm glad someone can.  I didn't realize paint company's were supposed to be in the apparel business. How come I don't get a Costco T-shirt, or IGA, or BP or Subway.....I mean I shop there and all.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> I'm glad someone can.  I didn't realize paint company's were supposed to be in the apparel business. How come I don't get a Costco T-shirt, or IGA, or BP or Subway.....I mean I shop there and all.



is the snarky response free?

:jester:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Even if SW used opaque polymers to decrease the TiO2 use level to increase scattering efficiency of TiO2, do you really think they would pass along that savings?

I can see it now... Two technologies from Dow address cost run-ups of TiO2 and we are passing along that savings to you. So that 38% increase we hit you with, we take that back. Thank you for your continued business.

Early tests with one particular exterior paint using opaque polymers reduced the use level of TiO2 by 38%. Substantial if you ask me. It should be interesting to see what these new technologies do for us. In theory, we should see better coverage and SW could really use it.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

WisePainter said:


> is the snarky response free?
> 
> :jester:


You're paying for it, just like the "free" T-shirt's LMAO. There's nothing like the feeling of a brand new shirt on your back, especially after a price increase, and record profit year...a constant reminder of being screwed.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> You're paying for it, just like the "free" T-shirt's LMAO. There's nothing like the feeling of a brand new shirt on your back, especially after a price increase, and record profit year...a constant reminder of being screwed.


haha funny you mention that. Yeah the free t-shirt is sort of an omen. We left ours on the counter. Thanks but no thanks. That whole good and evil thing never sits well with me.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> haha funny you mention that. Yeah the free t-shirt is sort of an omen. We left ours on the counter. Thanks but no thanks. That whole good and evil thing never sits well with me.


home depot...good or evil Jacques?




I so hope you rolled your eyes as you let out a huge pretentious sigh as you coldly rejected the shirt.

drama queen.

your future S.W. prices = worst evar.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Or you can pay for Aura in the 60-70 range and no t-shirt. You paid for it anyways and got screwed.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

paintpimp said:


> or you can pay for aura in the 60-70 range and no t-shirt. You paid for it anyways and got screwed.


boom goes the dynamite!!!!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

paintpimp said:


> Or you can pay for Aura in the 60-70 range and no t-shirt. You paid for it anyways and got screwed.


$51.....and you got a stir stick. Plus it made you money unlike (insert SW product) that cost you money due to failure, store screw up, or the hours of haggling.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> $51.....and you got a stir stick. Plus it made you money unlike (insert SW product) that cost you money due to failure, store screw up, or the hours of haggling.


 
Or $51, free stir stick, One hour commute to your 1 store at the other end of town, buying a beige so you got good coverage regardless, argue why your not in the next pricing tier for BM, no shirt and another hour back to the jobsite J/K I respect your business you are running


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

paintpimp said:


> Or $51, free stir stick, One hour commute to your 1 store at the other end of town, buying a beige so you got good coverage regardless, argue why your not in the next pricing tier for BM, no shirt and another hour back to the jobsite J/K I respect your business you are running


I think its just pick your poison at this point lol.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

*Where's the Valspar haters*

Well if we're complaining on SW on sales and profits why not Valspar.

Yahoo Finance article

Valspar’s solid results and robust margin gains in the past few quarters stem from its cost reduction efforts, increasing product prices and productivity gains. We are more optimistic on Valspar’s long-term performance, which is likely to be driven by volume increases in both the Paint and Coatings categories.

Quarterly sales jumped 19.4% year over year to $1.05 billion, driven by new business efforts, pricing and productivity, offsetting rising raw material costs and a challenging market conditions.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

We was talkin' paint that's why nobody brought up Valspar


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We stand united against any company that intends to make a profit. :whistling2:


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

*How about we STOP PPG*

How about we complain on PPG next. Another yahoo article

Today we announced third quarter sales of $3.8 billion, up 11% versus the third quarter of 2010. Our third quarter earnings per share of $1.96 were a record for any quarter in the company's history and up 24% versus the prior year. This represents 5 consecutive quarters in which we have eclipsed our prior quarterly earnings record, including last quarter where our earnings were also up more than 20%.

Aiding our sales and record earnings performance was higher pricing in all 13 of our businesses, led by our Commodity Chemical business. This marks the sixth consecutive quarter where the company has delivered higher pricing, reflecting our efforts to recover inflation we have already absorbed and counter flattening raw material inflation rates.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I always forget about PPG , I don't shop there so they always slip my mind when I think paint. I do have a jacket around here somewhere that they gave me so I guess they ain't for crap either


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> home depot...good or evil Jacques?
> 
> I so hope you rolled your eyes as you let out a huge pretentious sigh as you coldly rejected the shirt.
> 
> ...


It wasn't like that about the shirts. I don't shop there, its been years and don't plan on it. Felt weird to accept shirts so we just left them on the counter. My future prices? I have no future with SW. 

I would however love the opportunity to demonstrate the competitions product to SW so they understand reality a bit better.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> It wasn't like that about the shirts. I don't shop there, its been years and don't plan on it. Felt weird to accept shirts so we just left them on the counter. My future prices? I have no future with SW.
> 
> I would however love the opportunity to demonstrate the competitions product to SW so they understand reality a bit better.


Which product?


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Most all of them! Their R&D has fallen way behind the last 10 years!


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

The facts are the facts:

SW made the most profit ever, this year.

SW DID increase their prices to all contractors 38% ABOVE what a contractor paid 12 months ago. (Yes we all have exceptions on certain products but what about the other products and how about sundries)

SW is going to increase prices again in January. Watch what happens.
Proposed increase is 12%.

I agree other paint companies have also increased their prices as they
had to; however, 50% is not justified. We have not had this type of increase with others. Our increases have been around 10% to 15%.

As to the comment about negotiating gas prices--What happens when
people start using less gas because of the cost? The price of gas starts to drop because they can't sell it. Why not the same logic with SW and their overpricing?

As far as the volume of paint a contractor buys--wether you buy it for $15.00/gal or $25.00/gal you still had a 38% increase over what you paid a year ago.

SW has some good products but are they $10.00 to $20.00 a gallon better than some of the other paint companies?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Those are not facts unless you can provide the source. Those sound more like your opinions. We do business with SW and have not seen increases like that, nor have I heard that from other members.

So again, I am asking you to provide your source, or refrain from stating them as facts.
Thanks


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

alertchief said:


> Most all of them! Their R&D has fallen way behind the last 10 years!


Yep, but apparently the P&L department is in full swing. :whistling2:


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Eventually the path of declining product research and quality will likely pass the profit line . Having worked their for 12 years I see a culture change! The current CEO Chris Connor hired me in 1991 back when store managers were treated like small business owners . They could actually ask the painter what they wanted, decide on a reasonable margin, order it and sell it! Now it's down to 5 price levels all of which take a district managers approval to even offer. All stores are discouraged from deviating from the store plan o gram on sundries and pumps! 

Store managers were hired and trained to think, now they plug kids into a system that looks identical among its 3000 stores! Managers incentive to achieve sales bonus is limited and much more difficult! 

Innovation and incentive breed success! Both of these are on the decline at SW and I strongly suspect some of the numbers being seen result in growth in markets outside the US and purchases of new companies! I think my prices at SW have gone up around 15% in the last 12 months and that's fine because everyone is doing it! Sell quality and establish value and it's all relative.

We all have choices to shop elsewhere!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

It's encouraging that a thread about a paint company and their products is holding steady with intelligent input.
Everyone contributing is doing so in a positive manner.

bravo S.W. 
A topic that fosters quality discussion.


:whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I use SW and Porter (PPG) equally and their price increases have been very similar in timing and scale.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

All I can add to this is I am freaking tired of all the price increases. I don't care what is thought of me for it, and also it PISSES me off to have to contact my rep EVERY time they do to let him know I will not pay $40.00/gal for superpaint. Why do my numbers reset EVERY TIME???

I don't like the games and the poor customer (FOR CONTRACTORS) service that comes with Sherwin Williams.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

They are playing dirty right now wrt their pricing structure. Its a pita, add that with the new type of store employees it makes me buy more Benjamin Moore paint.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I get even with SW all the time. When I pour a cup of coffee I take 2 paper cups. Stick that in your profit margin suckas


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I am so totally boycotting manufacturers in '12. :jester:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Julian&co said:


> Which product?


Any architectural paint. I'm not going to pound out endless pages to support my thoughts but I would hope to discuss it with management. I actually tried to have these types of discussions with management back on 2006. (crickets) So if given the opportunity, I would prefer to just show them. Then they could accurately advertise the product and better manage painters expectations on what product is actually capable of vs what they sell it as. I think its only fair. I personally don't like being mislead. Those misleading purchases become very costly ones.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last month we were comp'd 5 gallons of a certain product from SW and I promised not to write about it if I didn't like it. *cough coerce cough* It was years since I used the product but guys on here talk it up good so I was both curious and based on my experience, skeptical. 

It turns out, the free paint cost me $1250 to use and I hate giving away free work. The job was spec'd with our normal product which actually costs quite a bit more per gallon but making a simple exception to my own rule which is clearly written and stated, I stuck it to myself and hard. Again.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I am so totally boycotting manufacturers in '12. :jester:


Nah thats too extreme. How about they just get with folks who actually know a thing or two about their product and their competition. There is such a huge wealth of information just sitting on my hard drive that manufacturers never see and they are the one who should see it. It sits there and gets benchmarked against their competition til I'm blue in the face and none of it is shared. 

You know I discussed with you the possibility of publishing our product analysis and benchmarking on the site. I actually went as far as formatting a 12-22 page standardized layout depending on product type to do it someday. For example, that quart of paint I sent you a pic of... I have 122 hours into that product so far.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Instead of managing painters expectations maybe they should produce some products that meet the expectations of their largest market. Almost 85% of store volume comes from professional painters! Take a cue from BM and just make some products that require no Jedi mind tricks! Aura, regal, Impervo, Advance. Just pick one and see what billions of profit can do!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Can this thread be closed? I am putting my official request in.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)




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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

The OP is right. SW is out of control. $65 for a gallon of Duration gloss is insane. $47 for Resilence. I have had enough, but am unfortunately limited since there is only SW and BM in my area. There greed sure makes that $20 a gallon ad for Behr look pretty good.
Everyone is entitled to make a profit but they are going overboard.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

941owassard said:


> The OP is right. SW is out of control. $65 for a gallon of Duration gloss is insane. $47 for Resilence..


Is Aura more than Duration? :blink: It should be in the $50's +/-. Or try Ben in the $30's +/-


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

941owassard said:


> The OP is right. SW is out of control. $65 for a gallon of Duration gloss is insane. $47 for Resilence. I have had enough, but am unfortunately limited since there is only SW and BM in my area. There greed sure makes that $20 a gallon ad for Behr look pretty good.
> Everyone is entitled to make a profit but they are going overboard.


 
your paying retail prices for your paint:blink:


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Nah thats too extreme. How about they just get with folks who actually know a thing or two about their product and their competition.


"They" just sold billions of dollars of product in 1 year.
My guess is, they got it covered.




> There is such a huge wealth of information just sitting on my hard drive that manufacturers never see and they are the one who should see it. It sits there and gets benchmarked against their competition til I'm blue in the face and none of it is shared.


Why aren't they contacting you? If only they could see the wealth of stored info on your hard drive.
Or how blue your face is.

S.W. #6578 Royal Blue...



> You know I discussed with you the possibility of publishing our product analysis and
> benchmarking on the site.


Vermont, get on this asap! Millions of dolars are being left on the table...GAH!



> I actually went as far as formatting a 12-22 page standardized layout depending on product type to do it someday. For example, that quart of paint I sent you a pic of... I have 122 hours into that product so far.


omg wtf.


:blink:


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

If Aura and Duration are being mentioned in the same breath and price structure SW has one hell of a marketing department !


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Bitching about paint prices is like bitching about the price of gas. Doesn't matter what they charge, you can't do without it. SW knows if they jack up that retail price 30% and accidentally forget to give you your discount on a ticket , that once they correct this oversight and only mark you up 15% you will be happy and shut up since you now feel special because you didn't have to pay the 30% marked on the shelf price. 
Where i used to live I was given my old boss's pricing even after I quit him. At the time he was buying over a million dollars a year worth of paint and supplies from Glidden. It was a pretty good discount. I haven't been able to wrangle a deal like that from SW.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

Duration exterior gloss and Aura are pretty closely priced here, at least for me. 

SW tells me that "no one" gets a discount on Duration Exterior.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

alertchief said:


> Instead of managing painters expectations maybe they should produce some products that meet the expectations of their largest market. Almost 85% of store volume comes from professional painters! Take a cue from BM and just make some products that require no Jedi mind tricks! Aura, regal, Impervo, Advance. Just pick one and see what billions of profit can do!


That would require hefty investments in R&D, something SW hasn't been interested in. Proof of that is they still don't have a complete product line, and when you land on certain color chips you have to go to another paint store.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> We stand united against any company that intends to make a profit. :whistling2:


lol it is nuts, some want top dollar for their service but complain about the operating costs. 



941owassard said:


> The OP is right. SW is out of control. $65 for a gallon of Duration gloss is insane. $47 for Resilence. I have had enough, but am unfortunately limited since there is only SW and BM in my area. There greed sure makes that $20 a gallon ad for Behr look pretty good.
> Everyone is entitled to make a profit but they are going overboard.


Those prices suck. I am in the 40's for Duration and about 34 for Resilience. 

How many gallons are you buying a year from SW? If you don't want to say on the board feel free to pm me. 



NCPaint1 said:


> Is Aura more than Duration? :blink: It should be in the $50's +/-. Or try Ben in the $30's +/-


Duratian is about 8 dollars a gallon less than Aura. I prefer the Aura. 



Dave Mac said:


> your paying retail prices for your paint:blink:


Looks like it.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

So, the biggest beef with S.W. is the percieved high prices.

not quality.

prices are too high.



High Quality = High Prices

my motto exactly.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I can get Glidden Speedwall for $8 a gallon at the Home Depot with my pro rewards card.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

In Demand said:


> I can get Glidden Speedwall for $8 a gallon at the Home Depot with my pro rewards card.


That will set you apart from the competition.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Don't hate


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

You can have those clients, I don't think you will find many here who will fight you for them. :no:


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I couldn't even get Speedwall to cover over Killz with 2 coats when the guy I was subbing for had me use it. Definitely get what you pay for. 
I wish there was an actual Glidden store around here I like Diamond


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

In Demand said:


> Don't hate


lol Not hating, I have interacted with you enough to think your previous Glidden post was sarcasm.



In Demand said:


> I couldn't even get Speedwall to cover over Killz with 2 coats when the guy I was subbing for had me use it. Definitely get what you pay for.
> I wish there was an actual Glidden store around here I like Diamond


No local Glidden stores in KY? I tried the Diamond a few years ago and did not think that much of it, glad you had better results maybe I should try it again, interior or exterior?


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## right? or right now? (Dec 15, 2011)

just shop the boneyard, always a good deal there,...may not get the color you want though:jester:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

right? or right now? said:


> just shop the boneyard, always a good deal there,...may not get the color you want though:jester:


Might find an suitable red or yellow though.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Interior. 
I used in on a lot of high end repaints and always had good results and positive reviews from the customers on it. Closest Glidden store is 45 minutes away. Can't really justify the drive when there are 2 SW's , a BM, and a Porter right here in town. 
Plus the Glidden store near here wouldn't know me as the charming devil that I am and would want me to pay way more then the one back home.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

In Demand said:


> Interior.
> I used in on a lot of high end repaints and always had good results and positive reviews from the customers on it. Closest Glidden store is 45 minutes away. Can't really justify the drive when there are 2 SW's , a BM, and a Porter right here in town.
> Plus the Glidden store near here wouldn't know me as the charming devil that I am and would want me to pay way more then the one back home.


I never tried the interior, I used it on an exterior but thought it was over priced when the Durus worked equally as well. We have a Glidden in Huntsville, it used to be a Glidden then turned into ICI and is now back to Glidden, circle of life I guess.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I never tried the interior, I used it on an exterior but thought it was over priced when the Durus worked equally as well. We have a Glidden in Huntsville, it used to be a Glidden then turned into ICI and is now back to Glidden, circle of life I guess.


Exterior Diamond ? Do you mean Fortis ?
It's all called Diamond and Fortis now, they just have different numbers behind the name. Worse marketing plan I ever heard of. Let's change the store name back to Glidden and have it associated with the crap we sell at Walmart and Home Depot. Then let's put it all in the most bland labeled cans we can come up with that all look the same so you can't tell what you have very easily. And finally let's name it all Fortis and Diamond so that it confuses everyone even more then our cans.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

*Check your invoices*

My whole point in starting this discussion was not to knock all SW products. Each paint company has some good and some bad products.

My complaint is with SW new pricing policies. The following things have happened at SW in the last year:

Prices have increased 38% and will increase 12% more in 2012.

Our price exceptions may not have increased as much but all other products have and will.

Prices are sometimes changed automatically overnight in the computer.
Check every time or you will get extra charges.

Store managers can not change prices without District Manager approval.
The old policy allowed you to deal directly with the store manager.

Prices qouted for jobs are only good for a limited time. If yu give an estimate and get the job 3 months later your price will increase and you will eat the difference.

Sundry and equipment prices are insane. You can purchase all these
products for less in many other places.

Before someone replies that we don't buy enough to receive good prices:
we have legitimate level 5 pricing and exceptions on at least a dozen paint products.

Since SW has made the most profit ever this year; even after paying he IRS a 75 Million dollar tax penalty settlement on their employee stock ownership plan, WHY do the want to bleed every dollar they can get out of the paint contractors.

I can't believe that some people are willing to keep taking this. Stop
letting SW dictate everything. Speak up and stop buying if they force us to. Maybe then they will listen.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Dude you keep repeating yourself, your prices have gone up 38% and that's unfortunate for you. Buy paint elsewhere.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

ncaputo said:


> My whole point in starting this discussion was not to knock all SW products. Each paint company has some good and some bad products.
> 
> My complaint is with SW new pricing policies. The following things have happened at SW in the last year:
> 
> ...


 
Please remind me, did SW make 6 billion in profit or didn't they?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

ncaputo said:


> I can't believe that some people are willing to keep taking this. Stop
> letting SW dictate everything. Speak up and stop buying if they force us to. Maybe then they will listen.


I would really suggest to locate a local Benjamin Moore store. If the BM store is half as good as mine it will be the best thing you ever did. Not only will SW not be getting your money, you will be supporting a local business which helps your area. For the most part, I typically get informed of any price increase at least a few months ahead of time.

Pat


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Yeap SW does not send out letters of price increase anymore, I'm usually tipped off in the store, from what I can tell all the different paint stores in my area have had as many price increaser's as SW. It bothers me as well they have so many increases because I think its human natured to be bothered by such things, but as the pros here say the customer is paying for materials so let it not bother you. I used BM this past week and the service was pretty good, but pricing for equally products were almost $10 a gallon more, I have the best guys behind the counter I could ever hope for at SW store I go to, (used to-be a Daron store) heck I pulled in the parking lot the other day sat in the truck and talked on the phone, while I'm on the phone the guys load the paint into the truck. I'm just a small residential repaint guy, I never buy more then 35 gallons at a time, and if I have a old bid they have honored the price I quoted for wit ht the old paint price, my sales rep is awesome as well, came out to job last summer that had a paint filer and didn't bat a eye to tell me we will handle this what every way I wanted, total strip and repaint whatever I thought was best. they would back me up. NCAPUT it made me mad at first but all other paint stores are doing it as well, so that really should be the issue, for me I want the best service possible and they give me that with very good pricing, just human nature for me to complain to them that they are to high lol


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## HeadHoncho (Apr 17, 2007)

SW does bother me... they should at least have the reps tell us, or email us when prices increase. The reps don't even know half the time when prices increase. SW banks on the little slip ups from us not checking our prices daily! 

It bothers me even more that SW caters to illegals by putting popcorn machines and chili sauce in all there stores, freaking dudes hover around those popcorn machines like its there last meal!


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

WisePainter said:


> So, the biggest beef with S.W. is the percieved high prices.
> 
> not quality.
> 
> ...


sorry i disagree, a BMW maybe a higher grade for a higher price. but a ford will get it done for you without paying the overhead for a name. BM is good paint and it is overpriced Behr is crap and not worth the time to buy it. SW maybe overpriced based on the pricing, but i do not see them as a high quality paint. if that was the case all companies would rise the price to make is seem the walmart product is better then it is. it still could be overpriced crap. take for example you buy gas from BP for X amount, but 7-11 has it for 10cents less, are you going to say well it is BP and pay more for it. In the paint world you find a product that will do the job for you weather it is Behr or BM or SW. Quality can be an after thought if said product gets the job done. value is hard to find anywhere, but higher prices does not mean a better product.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> I would really suggest to locate a local Benjamin Moore store. If the BM store is half as good as mine it will be the best thing you ever did. Not only will SW not be getting your money, you will be supporting a local business which helps your area. For the most part, I typically get informed of any price increase at least a few months ahead of time.
> 
> Pat


I would have thanked this post twice if I could.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'll say this;
if you can afford to have a 40% off sale you might be over charging.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

HeadHoncho said:


> It bothers me even more that SW caters to illegals by putting popcorn machines and chili sauce in all there stores, freaking dudes hover around those popcorn machines like its there last meal!


Yummy, nothing like a bag of popcorn topped off with some chili sauce..

Pat


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

WTF our SW doesn't have popcorn or chili sauce, only a 1 cup coffee maker. 

I haven't experienced a 38% increase. Nor have I ever had a increase from SW without a warning prior. For the most part SW has been fair to do business with. It boggles me that there is a 4 page thread that is solely bagging on SW, only due to SW showing a profit. If your so pizzed go OWS on them and stand in front of the store with a 99% sign. If your unhappy with your service, go get it somewhere else, that's what any right minded business person would do with out hesitation. They're not neo nazis forcing you in their stores with bombs strapped to your chest.

Another words quit your b!tchen and move on.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't eat paint store popcorn. I have seen guys take off their sweaty nasty hat and scoop out popcorn with it.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

But then how would it get salted?


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

ncaputo said:


> My whole point in starting this discussion was not to knock all SW products. Each paint company has some good and some bad products.:thumbsup:
> 
> My complaint is with SW new pricing policies. The following things have happened at SW in the last year:
> 
> ...


Instead of predicting the future, look into things. Create a relationship with your manager and rep. Become a business partner. If not go occupy something your not even aware of.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

HeadHoncho said:


> SW does bother me... they should at least have the reps tell us, or email us when prices increase. The reps don't even know half the time when prices increase. SW banks on the little slip ups from us not checking our prices daily!
> 
> It bothers me even more that SW caters to illegals by putting popcorn machines and chili sauce in all there stores, freaking dudes hover around those popcorn machines like its there last meal!


Your rep knows about the price increases before they happen. They don't bank on slip ups. The decision to inform of price increases is up to the rep and manager. 

Your last comment is just plain wrong, hateful and should be deleted.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> WTF our SW doesn't have popcorn or chili sauce, only a 1 cup coffee maker.


I saw that awhile back, was in a sw store getting some color chips to take to Bm to get matched. That's gotta cost them a arm and a leg, those things are not cheap as I own a Keurig coffee maker. A case of 80 cups at costco costs close to 40 bucks.

Pat


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## HeadHoncho (Apr 17, 2007)

paintpimp said:


> Your rep knows about the price increases before they happen. They don't bank on slip ups. The decision to inform of price increases is up to the rep and manager.
> 
> Your last comment is just plain wrong, hateful and should be deleted.


Thanks for your opinion.

Sometimes, well most times... when I see those guys filling there pockets with popcorn... I visualize myself shoving that great big chili sauce bottle down there pie hole! Pardon my hatefulness... I need to work on that, oneday...oneday...!


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Illegals do fill up on free popcorn and coffee. That's who I noticed doing the hat scoop usually.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> I saw that awhile back, was in a sw store getting some color chips to take to Bm to get matched. That's gotta cost them a arm and a leg, those things are not cheap as I own a Keurig coffee maker. A case of 80 cups at costco costs close to 40 bucks.
> 
> Pat


SW profit sharing


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

In Demand said:


> Illegals do fill up on free popcorn and coffee. That's who I noticed doing the hat scoop usually.


it's their secret to working 18 hour days, 7 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> it's their secret to working 18 hour days, 7 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year.


Which nets them a big $20,000 a year. I have seen 3 of them chip in together on a bag of chips out of a vending machine. Gotta be frugal, when there is no free popcorn


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

In Demand said:


> Which nets them a big $20,000 a year.



sure, but that's a 300% increase over what they would earn back home.



boy, i wish there was an "America" that i could cross into easily.
a place where $75.00 hr. was cheap...


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> sure, but that's a 300% increase over what they would earn back home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is! It's called North Dakota. All the work you could ever want. Name your price. Live in campers with 20 other guys. Just got to get there, find a place to sleep and not freeze to death.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I received a holiday card from the evil empire today.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Here is my 2 cents. Im a 3rd generation painter. Dad and grandpa had company before I took over. I am not loyal to any brand and will buy the paint that is priced well and has quality. Lots of Kilz Pro,Behr,and Glidden this past year. Kilz better than sw promar 200, Behr Ultra covers better and costs less than superpaint or duration. Glidden products decent everyday. Bottom line is my wallet. More money in it and less to SW profits. My dad asks, will sw lower their price since fuel cost went down. NOT.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> Here is my 2 cents. Im a 3rd generation painter. Dad and grandpa had company before I took over. I am not loyal to any brand and will buy the paint that is priced well and has quality. Lots of Kilz Pro,Behr,and Glidden this past year. Kilz better than sw promar 200, Behr Ultra covers better and costs less than superpaint or duration. Glidden products decent everyday. Bottom line is my wallet. More money in it and less to SW profits. My dad asks, will sw lower their price since fuel cost went down. NOT.


I lost you at kilz is good...


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> Here is my 2 cents. Im a 3rd generation painter. Dad and grandpa had company before I took over. I am not loyal to any brand and will buy the paint that is priced well and has quality. Lots of Kilz Pro,Behr,and Glidden this past year. Kilz better than sw promar 200, Behr Ultra covers better and costs less than superpaint or duration. Glidden products decent everyday. Bottom line is my wallet. More money in it and less to SW profits. My dad asks, will sw lower their price since fuel cost went down. NOT.


 Covers better, but does is brush out better?


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Actually it does brush out well. Right now our goto is sw treasure valley. Many claim its the old pm200. At 15 per gallon its hard to beat,but rumor is its going away. My goto for interior trim is BM oil dulamel or superspec, sw proclassic 2nd choice. Ceilings and closets in flat , we use Kilz pro 110. Hard to beat that quality at that price point. No loyalty to one brand. Best product at economical price. Duration and Aura, used them both int.and ext. Can't justify that price when customer repaints on avg.every 7 years inside. Who do you know who gives a crap about scrub cycles for paint? Duration and Aura a couple more than others but at twice the cost. My wallet and customer thank me for quality not higher cost.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> Actually it does brush out well. Right now our goto is sw treasure valley. Many claim its the old pm200. At 15 per gallon its hard to beat,but rumor is its going away. My goto for interior trim is BM oil dulamel or superspec, sw proclassic 2nd choice. Ceilings and closets in flat , we use Kilz pro 110. Hard to beat that quality at that price point. No loyalty to one brand. Best product at economical price. Duration and Aura, used them both int.and ext. Can't justify that price when customer repaints on avg.every 7 years inside. Who do you know who gives a crap about scrub cycles for paint? Duration and Aura a couple more than others but at twice the cost. My wallet and customer thank me for quality not higher cost.


Please don't change a thing. Do what you have to do for your wallet. Guys like you are good for my wallet when I get called to come sand all that freaking peeling paint from the junk you apply. 

Thank you again

Pat


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Sw treasure valley is for apartment repaints and people trying to get one over on the new buyers! If we can't sell a job with paint that costs $40 -50 per gallon we aren't spending enough time educating and selling people on what matters! I find using high end products does more for my referrals and reputation! I would gladly pay for that cheap advertising! An extra $50 in a master bedroom won't put me out of business any more than SW selling Duration for $55 per gallon!


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Ultra is good,treasure valley is good. you dont stay in the biz since 1958 by using bad products but you can go out if biz quick by insisting on spending too much for paint. We had 4 days all of last winter. Why? Good paint, fair prices. My wallet gets fatter everyyear. Aura drains the customer,losesbids on cost and makes you lose days of no work.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

....


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> Aura drains the customer,losesbids on cost and makes you lose days of no work.


:stupid:

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

:whistling2:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Hate to be a 'pumper' for B.M. - but the best profit margins I ever made was using their Aura products. But the thought did occur to me today talking to a customer about possible interior painting, they're basically starting a project on their own and perhaps want some work done by a 'professional' - what kind of world would you have to bridge from what they're doing to using aura?


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

We have knockdown texture in colorado. Aura cant cover in one coat. Our avg house repaint is 6 colors and 3200 sg ft. Do the math Stupid. Pay 22~25 per gallon instead of 53 for aura. 35 gallons of paint equals 980 in savings. You cheat the customer by trying to get one coat coverage. 2 coats is better than one. No advantage by paying 28 extra and still the same amount of labor regardless of paint. Aura flashes bad on exterior brushing of facia. Dad ead comped a gallon of dark blue/grey brushed it on and flashed bad. Superpaint and ultra same color no flashing. I will gladly repaint your flashing aura and save my customer money. Therefore making them happy, paint holds up and we stay in business year round with no slow down in winter months.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

We painted with these brushes to show that iy could be done old school and still look great


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> So wait a minute. HD is great because of the hours? Yet im supposed to deliver Sundries and cherry picked products to your job? Pound sand dude :yes:
> 
> I'd deliver a roll of tape to a regular customer if its not out of the way, but not to a guy whos buying all his supplies elsewhere and using me for odds and ends.


Hate to say it but unfortunately our "paint store" hours happen to be during my "time of work" hours so the HD hours are a huge benefit to me. Our Glidden store is out the door at 5 sharp. Don't shop SW even though they are there later. I wave though when I pass SW on way to HD just down the road.

To be efficient on the job means to be on the job and not in a PS at 8am. HD has a couple good products worth buying so I take advantage of that.

I think these paint forums are such a great place to understand how painters operate and to learn what is important to their operations. Its such valuable information. Some guys want to get in bed with their PS, I want to get my paint and get to work because I don't make money sitting on a chair.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I will apply anything to a wall if a HO is paying me to do it and provides the paint. If I provide the paint then there will be no Valspar, Behr, Dutch Boy, or any other big box brands. 
I know what products SW, BM , and Glidden carry and I know what each is good for. I am not going to experiment on a customers house with low end materials. What if they fail ? Do I tell the customer "oh sorry I was trying this cheap crap on your house to save $10". 
Part of my quote is to list all the materials used and to give a brief description of why I believe these products should be used and the advantages the products offer. I can't see myself writing I plan in using Behr because it is just so dang inexpensive. Let's say the next guy comes along and specs Aura on all surfaces, the HO will likely know that BM is a quality brand and that Behr is what they sell at HD. Perhaps they will also remember the time they bought some paint at HD and had issues with color matching and had to wait at the paint counter for an hour before anyone would wait on them. Even the average joe knows that real paint stores offer better products and service then HD. 
So now the only thing I can do to win this job is by being the lowest priced and hope the HO goes for that. 
I am not Budget Painting Inc. I am trying to sell on quality, image, and professionalism, not on price. 
Now if I was pounding out cookie cutter new construction then maybe it would be ok, but that's not what I am doing. 
That $10 you are saving per gallon by using Behr is costing you. 
You guys get a lot of leads from HD ? What about if there is ever a warranty issue, does your Behr sales rep come out and take a look ? 
Do you ever run into any commercial work where Behr is spec'd ? 
Standing in line with a cart full of paint at the HD is not the image I want for myself or my company. I don't want my truck in their parking lot. 
I don't want some snot nosed kid who was chasing carts last week but is mixing paint this week touching my materials or telling me I should prime all the walls on a repaint. 
Paint stores might not be perfect, but for an industry that makes their money off of making things look good, image is everything IMO.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Jack, I agree 100%. We are not 9~5. Those that treat the business as such dont stick around long. Who wants to wait in line at 7am at sw or ben. We are well under way at 7. 6pm rolls around, sw closed, and on the way to hd for paint for next day. Weekends are worse at sw and ben. Hours are limited on sundays. We work alot of sundays and can get paint if needed on sunday at 8am.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

In demand. Valid points. But how do you know what is out there if you never try differrnt products. True hd can mistint or colormatch but so does sw and ben. Warranty? When has sw or ben cut you a check for labot cost due to paint failure. Hd's here in colorado do like sw and ben and give you the paint for free to repaint the failure and comp you for labor with free paint. only happened once here in 2 years. Akzonoble makes goodpaint. So does masterchem/behr. Math says, 60 gallons for house. Customer needs good paint but will probably repaint in 7~10 years. Aura is 3200 for paint, hd is 1600 for paint. Total job is 8500 with aura or 6000 with us and hd. Customer saves 2500. Paint job lasts for 15 years. all the color breaks look razor sharp. Cant tell the difference between aura or hd but the customers wallet can. Who wins the job? Who gets a referral? Who is working on the next big house and not at home waiting for their phone to ring,wondering if they got the job and if maybe their bid was too high?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Zoomer, welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have a real passion for your job, as do many of us here. Here is a thread that might help you navigate the forum a little easier.
http://www.painttalk.com/f3/new-painttalk-please-read-15406/


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Btw Indemand. No leads given by hd. All referrals, word of mouth. That is why we stay busy year round. Not because of the prestige factor of using certain paints.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

We have different business models I guess. I have no interest in saving the HO money, they can either afford what I offer or they can't. 
I won't cut corners on craftsmanship or materials to lowball the competition. 
If I can't sell my services using the same materials that all of the other local painters are using then I do no deserve to be in business. 
I have never been the lowest bid on a job and I hope I never will be. I am not a Chinese factory competing to offer the lowest possible price to Walmart.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Thank you, RCP.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm thankful I don't have to work so many hours a day that I have to buy paint at the 24 hour super center.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

In Demand said:


> We have different business models I guess. I have no interest in saving the HO money, they can either afford what I offer or they can't.
> I won't cut corners on craftsmanship or materials to lowball the competition.
> If I can't sell my services using the same materials that all of the other local painters are using then I do no deserve to be in business.
> I have never been the lowest bid on a job and I hope I never will be. I am not a Chinese factory competing to offer the lowest possible price to Walmart.


Well spoken!


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> Pat, I could outpaint you anyday. Even with my left hand. How many down days did you have last winter? My crew and I had a total of 4 days from thanksgiving to march 1st. Successful company, good solid work, kick ass workers and knowing EVERY PAINToffered and when to use them accordingly. We dont paint apartments. Only high end residential, mainly repaints with ceilings,walls,doors and trim. Average house is 4 days labor.


I sure hope you stick around bud. Nice to have guys with your passion here :thumbsup:

Pat


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

We are always mid bid. We never lowball. But are you busy? Are you working today? Do you have business lined up for January.? Prestige doesnt put food on the table, kids through college, or makes the mortgage payment. Solid quality work and fair prices does. Especially in todays economy. I dont think using ben dulamel oil everyday is what you call apartment painting or lowballing. And at 65 per gallon. Cant get oil at hd.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Bender said:


> I'm thankful I don't have to work so many hours a day that I have to buy paint at the 24 hour super center.


I was thinking the same thing. I value my family and try to respect my employees family time as well by keeping OT and weekend work to a minimal. If weekend work and 10-12 hours days are the norm, it would be better to hire more painters. OT studies have shown workers are much less efficient when working OT hours.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I value my family and try to respect my employees family time as well by keeping OT and weekend work to a minimal. If weekend work and 10-12 hours days are the norm, it would be better to hire more painters. OT studies have shown workers are much less efficient when working OT hours.


Interesting to bring up. Good point. I have a small window of 5-6 hrs max where I am all game-on. That needs to start early for me. Late starts tend to throw off the day and kill the morning energy.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> Hey Pat, we're talking interior not exterior. We have used everthing under the sun since 58. What about you. we avg. 10 to 12 years with good color retention. Btw, bet you dont mix your own colors or even know how for that matter. Dad still mixes his own stains and paints and color matches dead on. And you?


*I can*:whistling2:, color match my own paints and stains prolly the majority of folks here can- if necessary. Years ago we didn't rely on the paint shops for custom tints, we had our own kit of colorants, that's just how it was done here. I can still do it if I *had* to but I can pop off to the RS in couple minutes. Your dad sounds like a helluva fella, guess the apple fell too friggin far from the tree huh ?:lol:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Zoomer said:


> In demand. Valid points. But how do you know what is out there if you never try differrnt products. True hd can mistint or colormatch but so does sw and ben. Warranty? When has sw or ben cut you a check for labot cost due to paint failure. Hd's here in colorado do like sw and ben and give you the paint for free to repaint the failure and comp you for labor with free paint. only happened once here in 2 years. Akzonoble makes goodpaint. So does masterchem/behr. Math says, 60 gallons for house. Customer needs good paint but will probably repaint in 7~10 years. Aura is 3200 for paint, hd is 1600 for paint. Total job is 8500 with aura or 6000 with us and hd. Customer saves 2500. Paint job lasts for 15 years. all the color breaks look razor sharp. Cant tell the difference between aura or hd but the customers wallet can. Who wins the job? Who gets a referral? Who is working on the next big house and not at home waiting for their phone to ring,wondering if they got the job and if maybe their bid was too high?


Forgot what this thread was about but wanted to drop in and mention... nice delivery. There is a strange phenomenon that keeps some people from seeing the bigger picture. I think you made the picture a bit easier to see, for some. Even tho, its sometimes difficult to deliver that message even when you show them on THEIR job. It takes some repeated pounding of the head for some guys to grasp and when they see the money stay in their wallets--its then they believe it and start seeking out other areas to save. 

I cannot stress enough to anyone here on this board or IRL how a single gallon of paint can impact your bottom line in ways never imagined. For some guys to think saving 50k is a great deal, boy I have stories to tell you. Thats a good starting point. Lucky for me, I get to see this impact daily on my jobs and other paint contractors jobs. It's still unbelievable at times even to me when the end result finally comes full circle and the bank has money in it.

The bottom line message to take out of this is (options). There is so much more out there if guys will take a moment to stop and realize they should entertain the idea of seeing what else other products can offer both to their bottom-line and the HO's wallet without compromising anything in that process. 

Nice post Zoomer :thumbsup:


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

A smart business man would keep the Behr a secret and blow away his competition. You guys done messed up now and told the world the secret to your success. 
Zoomers post proved nothing to anyone.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Forgot what this thread was about but wanted to drop in and mention... nice delivery. There is a strange phenomenon that keeps some people from seeing the bigger picture. I think you made the picture a bit easier to see, for some. Even tho, its sometimes difficult to deliver that message even when you show them on THEIR job. It takes some repeated pounding of the head for some guys to grasp and when they see the money stay in their wallets--its then they believe it and start seeking out other areas to save.
> 
> I cannot stress enough to anyone here on this board or IRL how a single gallon of paint can impact your bottom line in ways never imagined. For some guys to think saving 50k is a great deal, boy I have stories to tell you. Thats a good starting point. Lucky for me, I get to see this impact daily on my jobs and other paint contractors jobs. It's still unbelievable at times even to me when the end result finally comes full circle and the bank has money in it.
> 
> ...




Jack Paul sells his services to painting contractors. 
He'll enter your jobsite and reteach everyone his systems.


I have no idea what qualifies him, but apparently a couple of upside down contractors have hired him.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Let me find my checkbook !!!!!!


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> .
> 
> I cannot stress enough to anyone here on this board or IRL how a single gallon of paint can impact your bottom line in ways never imagined. For some guys to think saving 50k is a great deal, boy I have stories to tell you. Thats a good starting point. Lucky for me, I get to see this impact daily on my jobs and other paint contractors jobs. It's still unbelievable at times even to me when the end result finally comes full circle and the bank has money in it.


I'm sorry jack, but I just can't see how a single gallon can make major impacts when the direction is going to a lower cost product from home depot.

How does this put more money in your pocket? If anything it takes more out.

Estimates are figured this way for most - Time + overhead + profits + *Materials*

So if I just use a cheaper product then all this means is my price will be lower. I save nothing. Actually what this will do is increase my Time as each time I go to HD I will spend at least a half hour more driving there and waiting in line behind some Homeowner asking stupid questions then if I were just to go to my local paint store. This can add up quickly - lets just say 2 hours extra per week * 50. I now lost 100 hours for the year trying to save a few bucks. Say my rate is 40hr - that's 4000 bucks I lost.

The above is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other things this will cost you. From quality, chit getting ripped off out of your truck or van. The 8 million illegals hitting you up for work in the parking lot. All the call backs you get because little johnny put a booger on the wall, and when the customer tried to clean all the paint came off too. This can just keep going and going to where you have no choice but to call it quits and look for another job.

The general impression around here where the painters use stuff like Killspro or glidden is they are not really painters, or they are guys who sell up nothing but quality to land the job, then turn around and use the cheapest product they can find thus their belief that they are putting money in their pockets. The same guys that use their kids superman bedsheets for drops, same guys that use alex 25 year cualk, same guys that use toothpaste to fill nail holes. Same guys that steal their wives stalkings for straining bags and so on...

I will stick to using what has made me and my customers happy and that's Products from Benjamin Moore. 

Pat


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> In demand. Valid points. But how do you know what is out there if you never try differrnt products. True hd can mistint or colormatch but so does sw and ben. Warranty? When has sw or ben cut you a check for labot cost due to paint failure. Hd's here in colorado do like sw and ben and give you the paint for free to repaint the failure and comp you for labor with free paint. only happened once here in 2 years. Akzonoble makes goodpaint. So does masterchem/behr. Math says, 60 gallons for house. Customer needs good paint but will probably repaint in 7~10 years. Aura is 3200 for paint, hd is 1600 for paint. Total job is 8500 with aura or 6000 with us and hd. Customer saves 2500. Paint job lasts for 15 years. all the color breaks look razor sharp. Cant tell the difference between aura or hd but the customers wallet can. Who wins the job? Who gets a referral? Who is working on the next big house and not at home waiting for their phone to ring,wondering if they got the job and if maybe their bid was too high?


I sprayed Aura on on job and it failed. B.M. sent the rep. I got the paint and a check for most of my labor as it was product failure. Old stock that was sold before Aura was tweeked. It seems my supplier never rotated stock. B.M. gave me $600 and the supplier gave me $300 in store credit. I am happy with both. This was done last week.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Pat, Zoomers post was about BM vs HD not mine. Mine was talking about how a single gallon of paint can impact how you get things done. You've found that in BM. The cost of the materials is the least of the impact I look at. I wasn't endorsing the idea of drop your line and head over to HD. I'm simply stating a jar of putty can save you big money vs another jar of putty etc. or a brush or primer or paint, caulk and sandpaper.

I'm neck deep into various products all the time. There is no question one product vs another can produce some major savings over the course of a week not to mention a year. Even in a single days labor. Far more than you suggested you would lose shopping at HD for the entire year. 

When one of you BM guys pulls up something that impresses me over what we use. I'll be sure to comment on the results and jump ship like the rest singing praise and jumping around. I'm not knocking BM at all. I'm just saying the product I use meets my needs and a 65 gal of paint would need to do something different for me to use it. Do you really thing I haven't tried seeking that benefit out? "There would need to be a benefit." and somehow no one has been able to produce that to date, not even me.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Ok, sorry about that, I misread your post



> I'm simply stating a jar of putty can save you big money vs another jar of putty etc. or a brush or primer or paint, caulk and sandpaper.


This would not really save me anything, maybe the homeowner as the cost of materials I use gets factored into the price of the job, this would just mean my total price would be a little less.



> There is no question one product vs another can produce some major savings over the course of a week not to mention a year


again this is the same as what I wrote above.



> I'm not knocking BM at all. I'm just saying the product I use meets my needs and a 65 gal of paint would need to do something different for me to use it.


If you are referring to aura - it costs 51.99 a gallon plus tax. I think time will tell on this one on what it can do differently then the other brands you have tried.

Like I have said, its not about being the lowest price, or making top dollar on every job, to me its about providing the best job I can do based of my beliefs and past history. There are not very many things out there where a product that costs less will out perform a more expensive product. Few exception I can think of is generic drugs and amd processors vs Intel. I have always been a believer you get what you pay for and I try to pass this to my customers.

Pat


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

What sq. ft. per gallon do you get out of cheaper paints over a quality existing paint? Aura goes far and covers well, 600 sq. ft. per gallon.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Paint Talk


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

DeanV said:


> What sq. ft. per gallon do you get out of cheaper paints over a quality existing paint? Aura goes far and covers well, 600 sq. ft. per gallon.
> 
> Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Paint Talk


That's a good point, I would say 600sf is stretching it a bit, but I would say for every 3 gallons of superspec it would be 2 for aura 

Pat


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## walldog (Jul 28, 2011)

This is why america is so great and capitalism resolves these issues
If you have a problem with the price increase- don't by there product.
Bank of America decided to add fees and they got dumped by many of there customers. They soon changed there minds about there business decision. My local news paper where I advertise decided to drop a classified section sent through mail, so I'm canceling my contract once it is up. Oh, and by the way, I don't buy much paint from SW, DunnEdwards has much better prices and have decent quality paint for my market.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

walldog said:


> Bank of America decided to add fees and they got dumped by many of there customers. They soon changed there minds about there business decision. .


Netflix rings a bell


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Jack, your points are valid and sound. Being versatile instead of having tunnel vision allows us to stay in the biz for so many years. One brand does not do it all. I have a newer house. Moved in, painted walls with ultra,(bm concord ivory color), trim with sw pro classic oil. Ceilings did not paint. Ultra has withstood 3 kids, friends and a dog. I scrub stains and touch up all the time with no flashing. Same with trim. Point being, these products priced well and last. So why pay more. Same with my customers. Why would I buy a pair of winter gloves at Nordstroms when I could buy a pair at Gander mountain and have the gloves perform just as well,lasts just as long, and I save money. If the customer wants a certain paint I give it to them but if I pick I save them money. You have to be willing to test what is out there. Oil will soon go away. Latex on trim never looks good brushed out. So I have practiced with bm advance, a learning curve with different brushes and application methods but I am confident we can apply advance and make it look like oil with same amount of labor and cost. Tunnel vision would cause me to not ever try advance but to use oil until it disappears, then switch to say aura semi and never realize that advance works and looks so much better at much less per gallon. Our business model works. Companies come and go for their lack of knowledge and not being able to diversify. One brand does not do all things and can contibute to lost bids.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I am going with hiring illegals and using Behr, I am gonna be rich. Saving money never felt so good

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Zoomer said:


> Jack, your points are valid and sound. Being versatile instead of having tunnel vision allows us to stay in the biz for so many years. One brand does not do it all. I have a newer house. Moved in, painted walls with ultra,(bm concord ivory color), trim with sw pro classic oil. Ceilings did not paint. Ultra has withstood 3 kids, friends and a dog. I scrub stains and touch up all the time with no flashing. Same with trim. Point being, these products priced well and last. So why pay more. Same with my customers. Why would I buy a pair of winter gloves at Nordstroms when I could buy a pair at Gander mountain and have the gloves perform just as well,lasts just as long, and I save money. If the customer wants a certain paint I give it to them but if I pick I save them money. You have to be willing to test what is out there. Oil will soon go away. Latex on trim never looks good brushed out. So I have practiced with bm advance, a learning curve with different brushes and application methods but I am confident we can apply advance and make it look like oil with same amount of labor and cost. Tunnel vision would cause me to not ever try advance but to use oil until it disappears, then switch to say aura semi and never realize that advance works and looks so much better at much less per gallon. Our business model works. Companies come and go for their lack of knowledge and not being able to diversify. One brand does not do all things and can contibute to lost bids.


 
Say what? I am betting almost everyone here will argue that statement:blink:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Say what? I am betting almost everyone here will argue that statement:blink:


Aaaaaand here we go again !:blink:


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Or maybe we should just use aura, duration or accolade for every popcorn ceiling and closet. That warm fuzzy feeling of using high dollar paint for these areas will surely increase my profit margins and break my customers bank accounts.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

chrisn said:


> Say what? I am betting almost everyone here will argue that statement:blink:


I'll argue that MOST suck at it because if it were the opposite then I would be amazed by nearly all brushed trim finishes rather than looking at them going what tha'? Its far too common to see horrid brushed trim finishes than it it to find one that makes you study to tell if it was brushed or sprayed. Like mine of course.  One of the guys I'm working with thought my brushwork was actually sprayed. You really can't tell the difference. 

So if what you were saying is true then you too would see those nice finishes everywhere you look, according to you.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Jack you are so modest. Haha. Agreed, trim looks awesome whe you ask youself was that sprayed. I suggest purdy or corona oxhair and a little penetrol with good oil enamel.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Zoomer said:


> Jack you are so modest. Haha. Agreed, trim looks awesome whe you ask youself was that sprayed. I suggest purdy or corona oxhair and a little penetrol with good oil enamel.


haha you don't want to know how I pull that off. But the good thing is, it can be accomplished regardless where the paint came from. Cosmetics is the easy part of painting. Its the underlying science that can be a challenge.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Just did it on a new house with 5 panel flat/smooth doors. Customer had us come in day of closing on new house. Pm 200 on walls, superspec oil on trim. Brushed on oil, layed it off, then 3/16 mini roller from sw to lay off with no brush marks. BEAUTIFUL.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> I'll argue that MOST suck at it because if it were the opposite then I would be amazed by nearly all brushed trim finishes rather than looking at them going what tha'? Its far too common to see horrid brushed trim finishes than it it to find one that makes you study to tell if it was brushed or sprayed. Like mine of course.  One of the guys I'm working with thought my brushwork was actually sprayed. You really can't tell the difference.
> 
> So if what you were saying is true then you too would see those nice finishes everywhere you look, according to you.


Humble bugger aint you ?:whistling2:


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Just following the MASTER. Dad, not Jack. Haha.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Zoomer said:


> Just did it on a new house with 5 panel flat/smooth doors. Customer had us come in day of closing on new house. Pm 200 on walls, superspec oil on trim. Brushed on oil, layed it off, then 3/16 mini roller from sw to lay off with no brush marks. BEAUTIFUL.


Oil still going around where you are? Moving oil here in Cleveland is rare in res work. Satin Impervo w/b and oil are still two of my favs but its rare for me to use them. Those typically come in as a specific requests when they do and they are typically getting applied over oil.

I was actually surprised to see that Glidden Trim & Door paint was an oil. Actually had to make sure I read it correctly.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

It is an odd one. Glidden gave me 8 quarts free. Gave 4 to dad. He commented it reminded him of some oils in the late 1950s. It did ok but hide was poor.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I wish my dad was a painter ..........

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Not just a painter, a master painter


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> Not just a painter, a master painter


Oooh ...... Ahhh .....


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

We are allowed only look not touch the work of the master. Ha.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Julian&co said:


> Oooh ...... Ahhh .....


oh oh :whistling2:


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Master...... Oh you said painter. I gotcha.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## tide88 (Mar 18, 2008)

ncaputo said:


> The information about Sherwin-Williams, theri profit and their greed are accurate. Check what you paid for paint 1 year ago versus your cost is today. Yes everyone is entitled to a profit but SW is out of control.
> How many times are you going to buy the story about raw materials, transportation,etc. I meet with the reps. the district reps,and told them of my concerns, The result: another price increase. Check the SW stock price. Look at the picture of CEO annoncing profits to the stock holders. Then pictue SW the ONE% and us the Ninety Nine%.


The price increases are frequent and ridiculous. That being said, my rep usually will adjust my price if I ask to reflect the price before the increase. 

I do remember paying $18 a gallon for 200 eggshell about 5 years ago, now my price is $29. Kind of silly, since my cashmere price is 32. Guess I need to take my own advice and get my rep to review all my prices.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

SW reps must be getting a little desperate, last Friday I got a call from a local one saying " I see you have an account here but have not used it many years, how about giving me a call and lets talk" I just put it off and never called back. Today I get a call from the same guy asking if I would be interested in giving a bid for the outside of the store. Called him telling him I was not really interested as I'm pretty sure the reason of the call was to get me to return a call. Asked him why not let the guys that shop there bid on it? He's like "Oh we have a few bids already" I just thought it was cheesy and deceptive. Told him to come here and see how everyone complains about the service bs.

Pat


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Pat I am pretty sure we have the same rep! Or at least one with the same training! Anybody can read the dodge reports!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

alertchief said:


> Pat I am pretty sure we have the same rep! Or at least one with the same training! Anybody can read the dodge reports!


Ummm so anyone wanna come bid on my building? You may have to "rough it" though. I only have a single cup coffee maker and no popcorn machine. There is a Dairy Queen next door so I'll treat you to a small cone, you're on your own for toppings. :jester:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Ummm so anyone wanna come bid on my building? You may have to "rough it" though. I only have a single cup coffee maker and no popcorn machine. There is a Dairy Queen next door so I'll treat you to a small cone, you're on your own for toppings. :jester:


What's your lowest bid? I'll underbid it by a dollar and bleed you through the nose in change orders payable in the form of blizzards and dilly bars:jester:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> SW reps must be getting a little desperate, last Friday I got a call from a local one saying " I see you have an account here but have not used it many years, how about giving me a call and lets talk" I just put it off and never called back. Today I get a call from the same guy asking if I would be interested in giving a bid for the outside of the store. Called him telling him I was not really interested as I'm pretty sure the reason of the call was to get me to return a call. Asked him why not let the guys that shop there bid on it? He's like "Oh we have a few bids already" I just thought it was cheesy and deceptive. Told him to come here and see how everyone complains about the service bs.
> 
> Pat


Thats disgusting. I'd call the district manager.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

All it did was push me from never using their products. Sad thing is I'm sure they have some good stuff. I'm just not sure what his thinking is or the goons that train these reps. I can't stand lies and deceptive crap. Just be straight up with me and you will have my respect. I would have been really pissed if I went there and all he tried to do was spew his products on me. 

Pat


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have to say it, I have a great SW rep.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I have to say it, I have a great SW rep.


So do I!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Me too, but since I only use BM my prices at SW are really high


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

it is funny i work at a different store then SW, but i still have an account with SW for family out of state, and in the past used account. about every 3-4 months i get a call from a rep in the Chicago area even know the account is based in MN, asking me how are things going, after telling him it is an old account that i have kept open for family and friends out of state. Yet after 4 times he is still calling me. Soon i will get a call from a rep in Oklahmo where my brother lives. do your fact finding first please is all i ask


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Had my account open with SW for 2 years now. This year, over last year, I have tripled my sales with them. I've never received a phone call from a rep... to date.

I've decided to shop around starting the new year, and see what else is out there and how I might save a few bucks. Even just on covers, drops, plastic etc...

How long till he calls when my sales drop off? Guess we will see. :thumbsup:


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

Different Strokes said:


> Had my account open with SW for 2 years now. This year, over last year, I have tripled my sales with them. I've never received a phone call from a rep... to date.
> 
> I've decided to shop around starting the new year, and see what else is out there and how I might save a few bucks. Even just on covers, drops, plastic etc...
> 
> How long till he calls when my sales drop off? Guess we will see. :thumbsup:


no matter if you do only SW,BM PPG,PL,DV, etc... you should always have an account set up at most of these places if nothing else cash account. some Rep will "camp out" at other stores in fact the SW rep was in the lot this am. being the smart a$$ that i am i brought him a cup of coffee. havening these accounts gives you more power over the other in pricing. it is like the idea of walking into SW with a BM t-shirt, you are more likely to get a new SW t-shirt or BM shirt. while they will not "give away" the product you may as well get a better price if they know you have 'ties' elsewhere. 
back in the day if i went to SW i would have a few cans of BM in the truck just so they knew that i was using other products. It may or may not have helped my pricing but i felt it did.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Different Strokes said:


> Had my account open with SW for 2 years now. This year, over last year, I have tripled my sales with them. I've never received a phone call from a rep... to date.


 I buy next to nothing from SW and they call me all the time wanting to buy me lunch and give me free stuff to try. I guess we are still in the courting phase-the marriage phase I'm guessing is probably a different story


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

*Bottom Line*

SW is all about the numbers. I have dealt with SW as well as many other paint dealers for the past 30 years. The SW change in attitude started about 5 years ago. I have seen SW move from a company that cared about the contractor to a company that only judges their employees by the projected sales goal they set for each contractor. Pressure is on at all levels to reach or surpass the goal set by the higher levels. Some really good managers and reps have been fired because their numbers did not reach theses levels.

Gone are the days when they cared about the contractor--they are forced to care only about the contractors Bottom Line in their store.

I have found better service and people who still care in the smaller stores.

If you are going to reply that he ONLY reason you are in this business is your Bottom Line, then I don't think you last very long. There has to be a certain sense of pride, fairness and caring that we have for our customers. We all want to make a fair living but we don't have to be greedy. Our customers want to be more than a Bottom Line. Maybe SW should take the hint.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

So I hear one guy complaining that the rep calls him and another guy complaining his rep never calls him. And another complaining that he doesn't feel cared for. 

Being a rep is a very difficult job. Most reps are "assigned to about 250-450 accounts. It is difficult to contact each one regularly. They are SALES reps, their job is to sell. Along with that they also service the account. 

So the person complaining about being called too much, that's their job, is to try to sell you paint. I agree that inviting you to bid on the store is a bad move. But, you also did not respond to a message he left for you, that also leaves a wrong message too.

Don't judge a rep unless you've been one. Ask anybody who is a sales rep and it is one of the most difficult jobs. Reps do about 10 sales calls a day, you try to sell, try to grow business, show new products, build relationships, service needs and complaints, get lied to by customers, get hung up on, and yelled at. Next time you complain about your rep, maybe look at what you put into the relationship as well. A rep will help your business. It all depends on you whether you let them or not.

If you never been called on by a rep is because you probably aren't assigned a rep. 

For the one who doesn't feel cared for, based on your responses you post. Why would they want to have any type of relationship with you when you put down the company they represent? You can be cared for if you open up to a relationship with your rep and manager. It's a two way street.

I do about just anything to help out my customers. I care about them, their family and especially their business. 

You will come across not so great of reps and managers in this company. There are over 3800 stores and 2000+ reps you will have good and bad. The next top 5 competitors added together don't add up to that many. The program you complain about the company works for the people that care and work hard. It is not a show up, turn the key, turn on the computer and wait for people to come into the store, put in your time and go home type of job. 

It is easy on these type of forums to complain about everything, maybe you need to find the question behind the question. Not everybody is out to get you, to screw you and to exploit you. Open up your mind and ask the right questions to the right people. You may find your answers rather than pass judgement.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Boo phucking Hoo:whistling2:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

> I agree that inviting you to bid on the store is a bad move. But, you also did not respond to a message he left for you, that also leaves a wrong message too.


How in the world do you think it leaves a wrong message if I don't return the call. It simply means I'm not interested. I take it you call back every telemarketer that leaves a message trying to sell you something? I doubt it. 

Come on man...

Pat


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> How in the world do you think it leaves a wrong message if I don't return the call. It simply means I'm not interested. I take it you call back every telemarketer that leaves a message trying to sell you something? I doubt it.
> 
> Come on man...
> 
> Pat


A no reply is simply a no reply. The second call I make, the response usually is "I'm sorry man, I meant to call you but I was swamped and had no time to call you back right at that time."

Now if you return the call and say "I'm not interested at this time." leaves a distinct answer. That's all I'm saying.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> Boo phucking Hoo:whistling2:


Come on you now you know better than that. You are supposed to use this guy

After re-reading my post, I whined a bit. Had to get on my soapbox and complain, I'm good now. Sorry.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Different Strokes said:


> Had my account open with SW for 2 years now. This year, over last year, I have tripled my sales with them. I've never received a phone call from a rep... to date.


Ok so if you triple $10...its $30 :whistling2:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

A business making a profit? Investors seeing a return? That a crime!!!! Who do they think they are? Ocuppy Sherwin Williams!!!!!! :whistling2: Lol


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## Nephew Sherwin (Oct 7, 2011)

Woodland said:


> A business making a profit? Investors seeing a return? That a crime!!!! Who do they think they are? Ocuppy Sherwin Williams!!!!!! :whistling2: Lol


Lol,lol


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

I see a lot of complaints of something going up a couple bucks. What is the big deal? A $1000 jobs stock is $150 or so $$$, the paint goes up $ 2 a gallon and you just bought the cheap stuff at $30 a gal so your price of paint stock is now $ 160 for that job. Is this a problem? I just dont get it? 

If doing a 400 gallon job the price goes up $800 in stock cost but in the long run that job is prob in the 60k range. I assume it would be detrimental to larger jobs


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ncaputo said:


> SW is all about the numbers.
> 
> If you are going to reply that he ONLY reason you are in this business is your Bottom Line, then I don't think you last very long. There has to be a certain sense of pride, fairness and caring that we have for our customers. We all want to make a fair living but we don't have to be greedy. Our customers want to be more than a Bottom Line. Maybe SW should take the hint.


The main action is the bottom line, This is a service industry so providing the best service you can provide will sell within itself but without the dollar behind it the rest of the rewards would not be accomplished. 

You are making it more than it is, if you do not like SW buy somewhere else. If you don't like buying paint then find another way to provide income.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

I am not attacking my SW store manager at all. He feels the same way I do. It is not the fault of store managers or reps, the problem comes from much higher up. Everyone in SW is held to a number. If they reach it, then they have to make more. If they don't reach it they are gone or demoted. The thing that makes someone loyal to a product and their company is missing in this approach. Sit back, say and do nothing. Happy New Year SW--How much more is that paint????? What happened to the knowledgeable manager or rep that cared about the customer but had their hands tied by the GREED of the NEW SW????????


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Personally I have a hard time supporting SW anymore price increase or not! Having been a long time employee as both a rep and a manager I have seen there business practices and employee treatment take declines! Some long time employees in the 20 year range have been demoted to assistant managers after being multiple time president club members! The economy tanks and suddenly a hero who vacations in the Bahamas on the red white and blue is a bum! Not in my book and that type of behavior drains moral and eventually the talent pool! SW used to be great when they let each manager level person be a maverick so long as the net margin and sales growth were at a reasonable level! That's no longer the case ! 

In my mind they still have some talented people but if they don't turn around the culture I am pretty sure the end result will be an eroded customer base! So raise or lower your prices it really doesn't matter as I am not a supporter anymore as good friends have been embarrassed by demotions while young and far less talented kids tell them what to do! Shame on you SW!

Glad I have broken free and am looking at the boys in blue shirts and not wearing one !


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## SoCal Paint (Nov 7, 2011)

It's amazing this thread is 18 pages long. For an American Company that still manufactures all their paint in the U.S, and they have probably contributed to more job growth than any other paint company over the past year, or even decade for that matter, it's almost hard to believe the negativity here. Who has partnered up with PDCA, sponsored lead training in most markets, and invested in the improvement of the painting community as a whole more than S.W? Hopefully every business out there has some type of profit structure in place, and not merely working for wages alone.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

SoCal Paint said:


> It's amazing this thread is 18 pages long. For an American Company that still manufactures all their paint in the U.S, and they have probably contributed to more job growth than any other paint company over the past year, or even decade for that matter, it's almost hard to believe the negativity here. Who has partnered up with PDCA, sponsored lead training in most markets, and invested in the improvement of the painting community as a whole more than S.W? Hopefully every business out there has some type of profit structure in place, and not merely working for wages alone.


A f'n Men.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

Customers are the backbone of any business. If you continue to raise your prices while you are making RECORD PROFITS you will eventually price yourself out of the market. It is time for SW not only to stop their price increases but to roll back prices to the CONTRACTORS that are their life blood. Everyone that is sticking up for SW pricing must either have stock in the company or is just plain foolish. If you continue to pass on these UNWARRANTED INCREASES to your CUSTOMERS you too will price yourself out of the market. So insread of sucking up to SW stand up to them because believe me they don't care about anything but their bottom line.
Their NEW Year price increase will prove it.


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

If your theory is correct then it will correct itself with dropping sales margins. I get good pricing from my SW and like the product. I suggest you not buy SW. I hear Behr is good!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

i agree s.w. paint prices have continued 2 skyrocket. i feel also that they also need 2 give painters a brake.i was doing a residental repaint a while back and my client came home 4 lunch carrying her mail and handed me a card for 40% percent off paint and stains and ask me if i could use it cause they have never been there! ive noticed also since then they have targeted homeowners also with selling hgtv paint.not sure about sherwin anymore.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

Has any of the other Paint Suppliers not proposed a price increase for 2012?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

from a sher-win - to a sure-loss


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## SoCal Paint (Nov 7, 2011)

NCAP, you're right the market does dictate price. Not sure I follow your logic on the other points. Looking at the facts objectively, and without personal emotion, what are you saying? Raw material cost has not gone up, or other manufactures have not increased? Anyone can play the role of critic, and find flaws. Example, Behr and Kilz are owned by Masco who just a few years ago implemented a strategy to compete with all painters through their contractor services division. They wanted the best of both worlds to sell you paint and steal your work. Glidden is owned by Akzo Nobel an European company larger than S.W. Then there's B.M who's part of Warren Buffets conglomeration, definitely more successful than most paint companies but information is limited on their results. Bottom line is, you're free to make your own objective decisions hopefully based on what benefits your business in a positive way.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

What I am saying is that SW has been in business since 1866 (146 years in 2012) and this past year (2011) they have posted the greatest margin of profit EVER. Being a customer of SW for 30 years I have seen many things both good and bad. The SW initiative "10 by 10" speaks volumes about what is important to SW. The Future We Envision: (This was the SW Goal from 2003-2010)

"While some may think it difficult to add $5 billion in sales over the next 7 years, when it took 135 years to reach the first $5 billion, we can clearly see the opportunity and ability to achieve this milestone for our company."

What has happened to achieve this goal is not right. Bottom Line and Stock Prices have become the main focus of SW. Good people on their sales staff have been treated unfairly because of these policies. Prices continue to rise even though they have made more money this year than any other year in their 146 year history. Even after all of this SW still wants MORE. Are you starting to understand?

I believe they have decided to push the contractors to the side by inflating our prices and now want to cater to the DIY's where they believe they can make even more money. The reason for all this a bunch of GREEDY EXECS who want to become richer at the expense of US. Haven't we seen this too much in the Corporate World? How did that work out for us?? Contractors need to speak up to everyone at SW and tell them enough is enough. We helped them make the most profit ever and they are still looking for more: it is time to STOP SW and make them GIVE SOME BACK!!!!!!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

JoseyWales said:


> Just stop using their product and let them know why..That's the only power a consumer has.I rarely use Benjamin Moore anymore for the same reason.


 benjamin-no-more!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> Here is my 2 cents. Im a 3rd generation painter. Dad and grandpa had company before I took over. I am not loyal to any brand and will buy the paint that is priced well and has quality. Lots of Kilz Pro,Behr,and Glidden this past year. Kilz better than sw promar 200, Behr Ultra covers better and costs less than superpaint or duration. Glidden products decent everyday. Bottom line is my wallet. More money in it and less to SW profits. My dad asks, will sw lower their price since fuel cost went down. NOT.


 well put! the BEHR FACTS!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

ncaputo said:


> What I am saying is that SW has been in business since 1866 (146 years in 2012) and this past year (2011) they have posted the greatest margin of profit EVER. Being a customer of SW for 30 years I have seen many things both good and bad. The SW initiative "10 by 10" speaks volumes about what is important to SW. The Future We Envision: (This was the SW Goal from 2003-2010)
> 
> "While some may think it difficult to add $5 billion in sales over the next 7 years, when it took 135 years to reach the first $5 billion, we can clearly see the opportunity and ability to achieve this milestone for our company."
> 
> ...



an extra $4 per JOB/CONTRACT due to mark up doesn't hurt my chances for winning with my #.
let them roll naked in piles of cash, i don't care.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> an extra $4 per JOB/CONTRACT due to mark up doesn't hurt my chances for winning with my #.
> let them roll naked in piles of cash, i don't care.


Not everyone is fortunate to be in your position. Some people is does matter. 

You sure have a nice looking avatar. Can you tell us a little about it?

Pat


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

ncaputo said:


> What I am saying is that SW has been in business since 1866 (146 years in 2012) and this past year (2011) they have posted the greatest margin of profit EVER. Being a customer of SW for 30 years I have seen many things both good and bad. The SW initiative "10 by 10" speaks volumes about what is important to SW. The Future We Envision: (This was the SW Goal from 2003-2010)
> 
> "While some may think it difficult to add $5 billion in sales over the next 7 years, when it took 135 years to reach the first $5 billion, we can clearly see the opportunity and ability to achieve this milestone for our company."
> 
> ...


Hmm, have you considered making your own tempera with egg and pigment?:euro:


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Not everyone is fortunate to be in your position. Some people is does matter.
> 
> You sure have a nice looking avatar. Can you tell us a little about it?
> 
> Pat


i guess running around seeking the cheapest paint, is no different than homeowners seeking the cheapest painter.
also if it's an issue, discuss it with a rep. paint talk can't budge pricing.
post #265 is how I feel also.

wait, aren't you a B.M. dealer?

the avatar is something i pulled off of photobucket, old school dudes brushing walls.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

zoomer said:


> jack, your points are valid and sound. Being versatile instead of having tunnel vision allows us to stay in the biz for so many years. One brand does not do it all. I have a newer house. Moved in, painted walls with ultra,(bm concord ivory color), trim with sw pro classic oil. Ceilings did not paint. Ultra has withstood 3 kids, friends and a dog. I scrub stains and touch up all the time with no flashing. Same with trim. Point being, these products priced well and last. So why pay more. Same with my customers. Why would i buy a pair of winter gloves at nordstroms when i could buy a pair at gander mountain and have the gloves perform just as well,lasts just as long, and i save money. If the customer wants a certain paint i give it to them but if i pick i save them money. You have to be willing to test what is out there. Oil will soon go away. Latex on trim never looks good brushed out. So i have practiced with bm advance, a learning curve with different brushes and application methods but i am confident we can apply advance and make it look like oil with same amount of labor and cost. Tunnel vision would cause me to not ever try advance but to use oil until it disappears, then switch to say aura semi and never realize that advance works and looks so much better at much less per gallon. Our business model works. Companies come and go for their lack of knowledge and not being able to diversify. One brand does not do all things and can contibute to lost bids.


 well said!thats the way 2 lower the boom zoom! Opened minded 2 whats out there and what works. The old mind set weve never done it that way before chances are u never will either.great minds think alike. Theres painters and theres ainters.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

paintpimp said:


> so i hear one guy complaining that the rep calls him and another guy complaining his rep never calls him. And another complaining that he doesn't feel cared for.
> 
> Being a rep is a very difficult job. Most reps are "assigned to about 250-450 accounts. It is difficult to contact each one regularly. They are sales reps, their job is to sell. Along with that they also service the account.
> 
> ...


 is he called a rep or rip?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

WTF is a mudbone:blink:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> the avatar is something i pulled off of photobucket, old school dudes brushing walls.


That is really cool, who needs rollers and sprayers. Nothing like painting houses with a couple of 12" block brushes.

I think you are doing our industry good by displaying an avatar of a couple of old school dudes. Let's not forget our roots.

what else can you tell us about that pic? this is fascinating.

Pat


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

At sw i have notice that they r targeting more on the homeowner than the norm.selling of hgtv paints plus 40% discount cards 4 them plus farmers discounts at 30%. I cant hardly compete with that especially when the homemoaner tells me they will purchase the goods. Embarassing at times.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

In my personal life I prefer little change. I'm a minimalist/realist where structure and repetition is effecient but with work things are changed constantly and rapidly to maximize that bottom dollar. 

It always amazes me how different we do things today vs a few months ago. Even when glancing over some of my previous articles, it amazes me how dated they become so quickly. No question taking the progressive approach has been very rewarding. Its important to remove all variables possible in this business to get to the backbone of your business where focus means the most.

Zoomers comment on Advance runs together with the current thread on Advance and I am right there with you. Can it be applied to look awesome? Sure it can. Are you willing to fool with temperamental paints to get results? Thats entirely your call. 

I think companies should be a bit more proactive in dealing with feedback. There is such an enormous amount of feedback here on PT, has been that way for YEARS!!! and yet this thread exists and grows. Now had SW been doing something about the previous years feedback, this thread wouldn't be here to post to today. I think bottom line on this thread is... is your paint worth what you are paying for it? I think if it were, people wouldn't mind paying more for it because it benefits them in some way. All products have a 'value' to the consumer and when the price exceeds its value is when people jump ship and seek out new value. 

Switching product to a gallon of paint with a coverage of 600 sq. ft. per gallon vs. 400 is not exactly what I would consider important. One area important to me is product that does not give you near perfect coverage in one coat. Because two near perfect coats of paint is better than two half-ass coats where the first coat in largely dependent on the second. Yes, don't forget that 2nd coat of paint is covering just as bad as the first coat did. The only difference is--you cant see it now and you effectively just applied the equivalent of what other guys are doing on their first coat, and you probably paid a fortune for it and it did nothing for you.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

I had a customer just the other day assuring me she could buy SW cheaper than me! Not cool!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> That is really cool, who needs rollers and sprayers. Nothing like painting houses with a couple of 12" block brushes.
> 
> I think you are doing our industry good by displaying an avatar of a couple of old school dudes. Let's not forget our roots.
> 
> ...


lol, yeah...


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Bender said:


> WTF is a mudbone:blink:


its a nickname i received yrs. back when i did alot of drywall finishing and its stuck like paint every since.they would say" He doesnt only have Mud in the Blood but in the bones".sorta been my trade name every since.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

im not really sure if the individual posting this thread has any background in business or not, but theres this thing called accounting. Sherwin Williams is a publicly traded corporation, they are legally obligated to release financials on a quarterly basis. here is whats called an income statementhttp://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=SHW+Income+Statement&annual. If you read into this, the companys gross profit last year was 3.5 bil(under 4 by 500 mil) the net profit(was .5 bil not 4). I take pride on trying to get facts before i open my mouth..it frustrates me as a contractor that there are people in business that do not. my reputation gets tainted by a negative stereotype. The united states is a capitalist nation, big business, small business theyre all products of capitalism. Sherwin offers a quality product at very competitive pricing for contractors. they have always kept me happy and that is all i ask. take a look at ben moore..three price jumps in the past year. i dont see you complaining about them. how about the insurance companies? they create massive profits, every contractor out there has to have a liability policy. just my .02 tho


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

StripandCaulk said:


> take a look at ben moore..three price jumps in the past year. i dont see you complaining about them.


Its because they have better products. Also I only remember one price increase. was in July or something like that. Plus we get to support local business and not some greedy franchise. 

Pat


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> Its because they have better products. Also I only remember one price increase. was in July or something like that. Plus we get to support local business and not some greedy franchise.
> 
> Pat


i had one increase in january..one mid summer..and my rep told me they're having another on comming this jan. i live on the east coast. i dont have a problem with the company at all. i like their products and i buy them consistently..i prefer to support local business myself. Benjamin Moore is still a large corporation..a subsidary of berkshire hathaway. im not sure how theyre any less greedy. Idk if the products are necessarily better quality either..that would be debatable. im not favoring with either company..for me it comes down to the job, and price. i use both. but that still doesnt explain the rant on sherwin which is why i was posting a response.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

StripandCaulk said:


> i had one increase in january..one mid summer..and my rep told me they're having another on comming this jan. i live on the east coast. i dont have a problem with the company at all. i like their products and i buy them consistently..i prefer to support local business myself. Benjamin Moore is still a large corporation..a subsidary of berkshire hathaway. im not sure how theyre any less greedy. Idk if the products are necessarily better quality either..that would be debatable. im not favoring with either company..for me it comes down to the job, and price. i use both. but that still doesnt explain the rant on sherwin which is why i was posting a response.


Well I have to be honest, I have not used a SW product in 10 years. So its not fair for me to say BM has better products. By reading here though It does seem Aura beats duration. I do not remember a price increase in Jan like you said. I only remember the one in July. I have not heard of one coming in Jan either. Warren buffet, berkshire, what ever. They are still independent stores and they don't have guys in the middle of the night fooling around with prices.

Another thing I really like is the minimum pricing deal and the same cost for what ever sheen you like for the regal and aura series. 

It just seems there are more complaints here about SW then BM. Maybe that's just me being biased.

Anyway welcome to Paint Talk.

Pat


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't understand all the bitching. If all contractors receives the price increases, then we should all just be forwarding it on to the end user. If you're not forwarding on the increase to your clients then you are whoring out the market. You are the one to blame then when our margins are eroding. Eventually you will be out of business and the companies that are working with proper margins will get a greater market share.


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## ncaputo (Dec 4, 2011)

Ta all the "SW suckups"-- there have been 5 price increases since October 2010 to date. These price increases have totaled 38% across the board. There is going to be an additional price increase of 12% this month. You can defend SW all you want but check out these increases. If you keep any type of records compare your prices from then until now. SW is the one taking advantage they think painters aren't SMART ENOUGH" to catch on or stand up to them. With responses like yours maybe they are right. Do you really shop for and purchase other things in your life like this or are you just hooked on the"FREE T-SHIRTS"??


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Caput

Holy vendetta. We get it.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

ncaputo said:


> Ta all the "SW suckups"-- there have been 5 price increases since October 2010 to date. These price increases have totaled 38% across the board. There is going to be an additional price increase of 12% this month. You can defend SW all you want but check out these increases. If you keep any type of records compare your prices from then until now. SW is the one taking advantage they think painters aren't SMART ENOUGH" to catch on or stand up to them. With responses like yours maybe they are right. Do you really shop for and purchase other things in your life like this or are you just hooked on the"FREE T-SHIRTS"??


Since 2010 would you please let us know what the other manufacturers increases were? If you're throwing percentages out there, throw them for all the manufacturers so that way you can substantiate your point.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Well put Ncaputo, well put.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

This thread is going.....going......going.....


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

You saying it's Kaput?:jester:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> You saying it's Kaput?:jester:


:yes:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Are you sure...


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Gone!!!


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