# I started an insurance claim for a HO...



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm puting myself into a peculiar position, and my intent is not to save face (well... sort of it is) so much, but to keep integrity with my client in regards to the issue I will describe below.

I have never had any of my jobs go south on me, so this is a new experience.

I have sooo many questions and really do not know where to start.

A brief discription:

I painted cedar gables on a house, it is now pealing in SHEETS! I know why it's peeling and it all comes down to my inexperience of preparation (at the time)... Again, another lesson learned... 

I started a claim thru my insurance Co. (it can be stopped at any time) for financial reasons only. 

The home owner would like to see the siding replaced because he does not have any confidence that stripping and repainting will keep this issue from happening again. I can understand why...

What do I do, offer to only strip and repaint, offer to go 50/50 on new siding, offer to replace ALL the siding at my cost?


My tax returns can pay for a complete residing contract, but with #6 (child) on the way and the need for a Suburban type vehicle (tax returns will pay for a nice used one in cash) I'm thinking Family before Business and at the same time am tossing some ideas around concerning my client. My customer is very patient and a kind man. We have entertained the idea of siding replacement and that can run up to $4K.

I value my customers house very much and decided on my own initiative to start an insurance claim just to see what they would cover financially.

Is starting the claim of my own initiative a good or bad idea?

How will the claim effect my insurance?

How will the claim effect my business?


What am I really responsible for? 

If you can keep to a serious discussion, I would appreciate it. I put my self into a vulnerable spot posting this.... I suspect some here have had some experience in this area, and I am really looking to glean from those people. I will take Phone calls if necessary (I prefer postings here so that others can learn), just PM me. 

I'm taking responsibility for the failing job, but I do not know where to the draw the line pertaining to what I need to do to make things right.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Your obligation is to make good the original work. No more, no less. Forget replacing the siding. Tell the H/O in the extremely unlikely event it fails then you will still warrant the work and repaint yet again. You have no obligation to replace the siding.

I doubt very much that your insurance would be valid in this case anyway because it's down to negligence and not a liability issue.


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

Is the coating coming off to bare siding? Did you not prime?..I think as Tooled Up said, forget the replacement of siding...strip, prep and finish at no cost to client...


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> Your obligation is to make good the original work. No more, no less. Forget replacing the siding. Tell the H/O in the extremely unlikely event it fails then you will still warrant the work and repaint yet again. You have no obligation to replace the siding.
> 
> I doubt very much that your insurance would be valid in this case anyway because it's down to negligence and not a liability issue.


I agree with Tool...

How long ago did you do the work Jason?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> Your obligation is to make good the original work. No more, no less. Forget replacing the siding. Tell the H/O in the extremely unlikely event it fails then you will still warrant the work and repaint yet again. You have no obligation to replace the siding.
> 
> I doubt very much that your insurance would be valid in this case anyway because it's down to negligence and not a liability issue.


:yes: I agree. I hope you didnt discuss re-siding it with the HO. $4k to re-side 2 cedar gables sounds low. 

Try to fix it yourself. Get your SW rep out there to document the chips and get all specs written up from him. Hand a copy of the steps and the product specs to the HO and strip/repaint it.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

My understanding is that liability does not cover matters related to workmanship, which is what you are describing. When insurance does cover, you pay them back through risk pool assignment. 

The other option is to explore product failure, which will bring a coatings expert to the job to announce your poor application. 

The best option is to correct the problem inhouse, in my opinion. School of hard knocks is brutal. I just hope that whatever prep inadequacy plagued you on that job doesnt start to turn up on a larger scale.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It should also be noted that it is good that you are being a responsible contractor. I've given you alot of crap here but maturing, learning from your mistakes and running your business with integrity is not a easy thing to do. These decisions are the hardest to make but if the right choice is made the reward of honesty and integrity is worth more than a few dollars for your time. And word of a honest contractor tends to get around. I hope it all works well for you. :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> :yes: I agree. I hope you didnt discuss re-siding it with the HO. $4k to re-side 2 cedar gables sounds low.
> 
> Try to fix it yourself. Get your SW rep out there to document the chips and get all specs written up from him. Hand a copy of the steps and the product specs to the HO and strip/repaint it.


There are about 4 gables in the front of the house. I just found out that insurance does not cover anything outside of damage... (mostly)...

Once I get the information about this from the insurance Co. I can take it to the HO. Yes we did talk about replacement, but when he realizes that I am only responsible for my workmanship and that he is under warranty, he will have to take my offer to strip and repaint and I will not be replacing any siding. I could take the cost of what it would take to strip and repaint and write him a check. That would give him some financial relief if he is really set on replacing the siding.

I agree with you Tool. I think your right.

NEPS, with this product: http://www.nichiha.com/ of choice, I got 3 bids and all of them where under $4300.

When it first started peeling, I had the SW rep do a chip test for me. Ends up being that the dead wood of the cedar was not removed before priming (2 coats,oil) and top coating with Duration.

I see us stripping and repainting... I know for sure by next week after I get all my ducks in a row... :yes:

You guys have been a great help. Thanks. :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

Don't give your money, give your time. Unless you have more money than time.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Here are a couple pics

























This one is with Primer, the first two are the completed pics...


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jason
> 
> Don't give your money, give your time. Unless you have more money than time.


Thanks.


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> When it first started peeling, I had the SW rep do a chip test for me. Ends up being that the dead wood of the cedar was not removed before priming (2 coats,oil) and top coating with Duration.


Jason...what does this mean?? dead wood? It might save me a headache someday...thanks


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Jason,

First, congrats on being honorable. The industry can use more like you.

The issue of responsibility for new siding is a good one. I can "understand" the HO's concern, but do not agree with it. And let me play the Devil's advocate, suppose the HO knows the siding was installed incorrectly and is trying to be reimbursed for that replacement. 

I would hire a pathologist (can't remember the names I've seen in the trade mags, anyone else remember?) to give an EXACT cause of failure. I would then consult with third party experts about remediation. The HO would need to sign off on the remediation. If industry experts all confer on the correct course of action, and the HO refuses to sign off, I would ask him to join you before a judge for arbitration. 

Keep it all "friendly" and "cooperative" but also professional.

I would consider seriously what a claim this size would do to the long range insurance premiums and weigh that against immediate out of pocket expense with consideration for tax write off. 

Good Luck !

EDIT - I wrote this at 6:15, got sidetracked by house guest, and then posted. It may not be "chronolocigally" correct (is that like politically correct ?)


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> When it first started peeling, I had the SW rep do a chip test for me. Ends up being that the dead wood of the cedar was not removed before priming (2 coats,oil) and top coating with Duration.
> 
> . :thumbsup:


 
That is a very heavy (thick) combo of paints for cedar. Strip it, wash it, XIM Peel bond, Super Paint or Duration 2 coat.


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## Quaid? (Mar 13, 2009)

that sucks after giving it 2 coats of oil it still peeled,


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Jason, what do you mean when you say dead wood? Rot?

Was reading and posting when slingah posted.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

We deal primarily with cedar, both white and red, as siding species. Your rep may be wrong. There is no "dead wood" layer on cedar or any wood. As long as it is wood it is organic, and as long as it is not rotted to the point of disintegration, it is not "dead". 

Cedar that is not properly protected forms a layer of cellulose (gray) as a God-given matter of self-preservation. It is often confused with mildew or mold, but is actually what cedar does to protect itself. This layer of gray, along with inhibiting uv and moisture damage, is also horrible for adhesion of paint, stain and oils. This is best removed by proper low pressure washing with chems. 

This sounds like the root of the problem. The paint coating is only as good as the weakest link, which in this case was the primer to the cellulose.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

We have issues still with oil primer on cedar and it has come back to bite on a few jobs. I really think cedar holds a lot more water than it leads on. We have used moisture meters on cedar and sometimes we never get it to an acceptable level.

I know you in one of the wettest areas of the country. Deadwood? what do they expect you to remove a layer on wood to expose fresh stuff? also what was on the house prior to you starting? and again how long was it before the failure started?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> I really think cedar holds a lot more water than it leads on. quote]
> 
> MAK
> 
> Red cedar and mahogany are the species I have dealt with the most on exterior. You are correct about red cedar, shakes especially. Having received and processed miles of lf of clapboard and s4s through our shop, and bundles upon bundles of shingles, I have a theory which points to the conclusion that shakes (shingles) are always wet and fall well outside of generally accepted moisture content standards for lumber. In which case, oil application is a recipe for failure. Dipping, which is the most common application mode, makes it even worse.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Slingah said:


> Jason...what does this mean?? dead wood? It might save me a headache someday...thanks


hold on and i'll answer this later... got other things on the mind atm..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> MAK-Deco said:
> 
> 
> > I really think cedar holds a lot more water than it leads on. quote]
> ...


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> MAK-Deco said:
> 
> 
> > I really think cedar holds a lot more water than it leads on. quote]
> ...


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> > V,
> ...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Yes. That's true. What about two coat of 123?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK and CA

WB is not ideal either. It is the lesser of two immediate evils if the cedar has an exceedingly high moisture content, as it will breathe out moisture. For the long term, wb doesnt have nearly the life cycle of a penetrator. So, in a perfect world, all cedar is dry and receives oil as its initial coating. Thats what we do in our shop for nc.

In the field on residential, as I noted to Jason, you have to remove the gray layer, let it dry well, then apply oil. There is nothing in the world that takes oils as well as rough cedar, which is what shakes (shingles) usually are. Its a thing of beauty. As J found, if you dont understand cedar, it can be very unforgiving.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Sounds like a solid stain might work.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oil that is.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Sounds like a solid stain might work.


That is what is always apply to cedar, oil prime and solid acrylic on top.. Again tho if the cedar is not completing dry its an issue that will haunt you..


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jason
> 
> We deal primarily with cedar, both white and red, as siding species. Your rep may be wrong. There is no "dead wood" layer on cedar or any wood. As long as it is wood it is organic, and as long as it is not rotted to the point of disintegration, it is not "dead".
> 
> ...


I agree with you whole heartedly... I have just recently learned this... :yes:

The cedar was originally coated with a semitransparent stain much like a white wash look, here is the before shot:








It was sooooooo faded and warn by natural elements, there was no sign of any stain accept that wich was surrounding the entry door. Being that no stain was existing, I thought just a PW and Primeand paint was the ony need. We did the same process on the siding of the lower covered front deck and there was no issue. The issue (obvious to me now) was only on the exposed surfaces.

I pressure washed it (no chems) oil primed it (Prep-rite quick seal, I think this is another issue.... not the best oil primer, again... another lesson attached to the belt..) with the fast drying product... 

I didn't have all the know how in prep, I just had what I thought would work and was very confident in my processes... at the time I had no idea about what VP has explained. :no: nope, nodda!

So ya! There it is...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wouldn't an oil stain, verses a film coat of paint, reduce de-lamination? I've had good success with Cabot. And it can be tinted to match existing Acrylics.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Wouldn't an oil stain, verses a film coat of paint, reduce de-lamination? I've had good success with Cabot. And it can be tinted to match existing Acrylics.



CA we use Cabots Acrylic both Cabots solid oil and Acrylic act almost like paint these days.(by the way they look when dry) but I would guess that the film thickness would be less then Duration


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

CApainter said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> > V,
> ...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I used solid Cabot on T-111 siding recently, and it looked just like an exterior flat. Everyone gave me grief though because it reeked for days!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good for you Jason!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CA

Yes. Usually, in the situation J has shown, we will strip what is there and apply solid oil stain (Cabot). 

J

If the previous semi trans coating had been on there for more than a couple of years, it was mostly gone. It would have been an easy strip and stain. Stain is by far preferable. Lower risk, lower maintenance. However, if you had tried to stain over that mess without the proper pw, the house would have turned all shades of black as soon as the oil hit.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> J
> 
> If the previous semi trans coating had been on there for more than a couple of years, it was mostly gone. It would have been an easy strip and stain. Stain is by far preferable. Lower risk, lower maintenance. However, if you had tried to stain over that mess without the proper pw, the house would have turned all shades of black as soon as the oil hit.


I hear ya! 

It had been more like 5 years... 

The HO wanted it to look like the rest of the house and simply priming and painting was what seemed a no-brainer at the time...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jason,
If you do go with a solid stain, make sure all the existing paint is removed or you'll have shiners in those areas.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

One of my favorite things about my business is handling raw materials. This is 16-18 ft western red cedar. You can learn alot from applying initial coats.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> One of my favorite things about my business is handling raw materials. This is 16-18 ft western red cedar. You can learn alot from applying initial coats.


Thanks V. I've learned allot from you handling it too!. uh..don't take that the wrong way.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Jason,
> If you do go with a solid stain, make sure all the existing paint is removed or you'll have shiners in those areas.


Roger that! :thumbsup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> One of my favorite things about my business is handling raw materials. This is 16-18 ft western red cedar. You can learn alot from applying initial coats.



Thats T&G is that flooring??


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Thats T&G is that flooring??


 
Exterior soffet. Yes, soffet.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Exterior soffet. Yes, soffet.



ahhh Soffit.. haven't seen that stuff pn Soffitt in a while..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> ahhh Soffit.. haven't seen that stuff pn Soffitt in a while..


We handled 13k lf. Got to know it very well.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I have found that if translucent penetrating stains have been used and the cedar has aged for a while (10 years or more) a proper cleaning and Acrylic ProV.T alone works great. The tannins have bleed out and oil prime or oil solid is not necessary. The solid stain breathes well also. 

I am a firm believer in not solid coating new cedar if you can offer your input and have the opportunity to do so. I recommend translucent for the first 2 applications (5-6yrs time), then a semi-solid stain, and if the homeowner wants on down the road a solid. Also, why would you want to spend the money on cedar and then cover it up?

Jason, first off good luck on the strip and clean (I feel for you). I would apply solid oil stain to those shakes.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

What do you guys think of a A-100 oil prime and two coats of Woodscapes solid on NC red cedar shakes?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> What do you guys think of a A-100 oil prime and two coats of Woodscapes solid on NC red cedar shakes?



I don't like it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> I don't like it.


Why?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Why?



Read post 45


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Read post 45


Thanks a-hole.

That was some great scientific stuff. The next time I get a scope from a architect I'll tell him painttofish said wait 5-6 years, then apply a semi solod.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I wrote what I recommend to homeowners, builders etc... The 5-6 yrs would include two apps of transparent during that time period, which I wrote. You can tell you architect whatever the hell you want. Im sure he cares little of the quality of your coating methods.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> I wrote what I recommend to homeowners, builders etc... The 5-6 yrs would include two apps of transparent during that time period, which I wrote. You can tell you architect whatever the hell you want. Im sure he cares little of the quality of your coating methods.


Actually the architects I deal with probably care more about the quality than the HO's do. That is their job.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Science it is not. Just what I recommend. Cedar can be tricky.

*A-HOLE*:jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

In all nc that we do, the house is intended to have a certain look about the cedar, whether clear oil, some flavor of stain or prime and paint. Thats not negotiable. The manufacturer and product, I pick. That way I can stand behind it. 

People will paint cedar because: a) they can; b) properly primed and painted cedar lasts a very long time. In these parts, waaay longer than pine. And, none of our stuff calls for synthetics. If its wood, its cedar, cypress or mahogany. 7 years ago I swore I would never paint these species. I am so over it.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> What do you guys think of a A-100 oil prime and two coats of Woodscapes solid on NC red cedar shakes?


I wouldn't have a problem with it if the cedar was truly dry.

PTF, I do like and understand what you are saying. Around here all we have is rough cedar claps and they are treated with oil prime and solid stain.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Actually the architects I deal with probably care more about the quality than the HO's do. That is their job.



Maybe, but there is a reason why they hire you. It's on your shoulders. Do what you like NEPS.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

painttofish said:


> Maybe, but there is a reason why they hire you. It's on your shoulders. Do what you like NEPS.


 
They hire neps because architects cant paint.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Maybe, but there is a reason why they hire you. It's on your shoulders. Do what you like NEPS.


Get over it. I simply asked you to elaborate on your recomendations and you wanted to be a wise ass. Go cry in the corner.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I understand sometimes a solid over new cedar is wanted. I just don't like it and don't get it. The customer is always right! I think we have all been over this topic before because I am having deja vu. Hijacking is a crime!


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Ya'all talk to much.... :yes:


Hey.. here is my next question:

What would be your recommended stripper for this project? I noticed 4 brands at SW today and they all ranged from $20 - $60 per Gal... A couple gave a 15 min waiting period before it needed to be washed away...

Any suggestions?


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I would warranty the coating. NOTHING MORE. Mother Nature... she is a beotch. You cannot win against her.. think of her as your wife X eleventeenbazillion. She wins. /thread.

Seriously. Just replace the coating.. if it wasn't for his skanky wood, your coating would not have failed. Who would have known his wood had a nasty film on it that screwed up your "years of experience" coating? Not you or him. Don't give these homeowners ANYTHING they don't deserve. There is being nice, friendly, customer oriented.. then there is being dumb.. you don't reside his house cause his old wood is crap. Bottom line. Maybe HE should have resided it before you coated it. I would recoat it after scraping/cleaning it and give it a 1yr warranty. THat is all. In essence you have repainted his house 2 times in Xamount of years at your cost. If it is THAT much of a problem he needs to fix the substrate so your coating will last. Tell him I, ME personally will come out and reside his house. I won't give him a discount, but I will do a bang up job that will do him for years to come..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Have you ever downstreamed?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> They hire neps because architects cant paint.



I agree


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> I understand sometimes a solid over new cedar is wanted. I just don't like it and don't get it. The customer is always right! I think we have all been over this topic before because I am having deja vu. Hijacking is a crime!


See ...now we are getting somewhere. This isnt hijacking, this is part of Jay's issue of poor prep and the wrong products. We are all here to learn something.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Got any pictures of the back side of the failed coating?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Jason what ever you chose for stripping make sure you protect that cedar shake roof, parts that under the eves nay get hit with stripper and your will discolor it and then you are opening a whole other can of worms.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> We are all here to learn something.


Got that right!

Now answer my damn question!!!  :laughing:




[email protected] said:


> Ya'all talk to much.... :yes:
> 
> 
> Hey.. here is my next question:
> ...



Today please....  lol....


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Jason what ever you chose for stripping make sure you protect that cedar shake roof, parts that under the eves nay get hit with stripper and your will discolor it and then you are opening a whole other can of worms.


Got that in my processes already. :thumbsup: Thanks!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Jason what ever you chose for stripping make sure you protect that cedar shake roof, parts that under the eves nay get hit with stripper and your will discolor it and then you are opening a whole other can of worms.


Good point. Things go bad on this round and J is going to be roofing and siding that sumbitch for free. Those shake roofs don't last forever, homeowner would probably love a new one.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Get over it. I simply asked you to elaborate on your recomendations and you wanted to be a wise ass. Go cry in the corner.



Not being a wise ass. Pretty sure you started that. I recommend the method I described earlier to allow the cedar to age, breath, and let the tannins come out. Not to encapsulate new cedar. Not saying it can't be done but it elimanates some tedious variables. Do I still have to cry in the corner king NEPS?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Jason what ever you chose for stripping make sure you protect that cedar shake roof, parts that under the eves nay get hit with stripper and your will discolor it and then you are opening a whole other can of worms.


:yes: ouch.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Bender said:


> Got any pictures of the back side of the failed coating?


 hmmmm.... not at the moment, but giving me some time within the next week, I could just drive by the home and pick a piece up off the ground for ya. Maybe send it to ya express mail? LOL....


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Have you ever downstreamed?


_I'd like to withdraw this question if I could._


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> _I'd like to withdraw this question if I could._


Is that peeing with the wind down a hill?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> hmmmm.... not at the moment, but giving me some time within the next week, I could just drive by the home and pick a piece up off the ground for ya. Maybe send it to ya express mail? LOL....



It is a smart thing to look at. I have seen multiple times that it is not the coating that failed but the cedar shedding the coating. The back side of the stain chip, or often sheet, will be a thin membrane layer of cedar. Something to look for!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Dude you really need a 3rd opinion. Unless you buy an awwwful lot of paint from SW I wouldn't trust their rep:no: 

I could tell you about my $200.00 job that cost me $1100.00 if it would make you feel better:whistling2:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

My head is spinning now!!


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

painttofish said:


> It is a smart thing to look at. I have seen multiple times that it is not the coating that failed but the cedar shedding the coating. The back side of the stain chip, or often sheet, will be a thin membrane layer of cedar. Something to look for!


This is exactly what determined the failure. It was that thin membrane layer. In my prep I could have scraped that off.... Never knew it would be an issue... I have seen the back of the chip myself and the test that SW put the chip through determined the same thing.

So, no... it was not product failure (except for the crappy primer...Even SW told me that was not a good primer for this job... ), it was my failure to recognize the appropriate steps to accomplish the goal effectively.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> It is a smart thing to look at. I have seen multiple times that it is not the coating that failed but the cedar shedding the coating. The back side of the stain chip, or often sheet, will be a thin membrane layer of cedar. Something to look for!


You should also get your rep to look at these and send it out to their lab. You will recieve a nice report stating where the failure happened. This may help with the HO's confidence that the right procedures are taking place to rectify the situation.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Here is the deal. There are guys all over greater KC area offering a 5yr warranty for their coatings. In the fine print they state that if the coating UNDER their coating fails, the warranty is null and void. What does your contract state? I don't want to screw anyone over 1st and foremost. I just know how people are. They don't want to replace stuff, yet they want you to be superman. You can't be superman if you have a shady surface to preform your work on. Fred Astaire couldn't dance like he did on a gravel surface.. your coating can't perform as well on a nasty surface either.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> You should also get your rep to look at these and send it out to their lab. You will recieve a nice report stating where the failure happened. This may help with the HO's confidence that the right procedures are taking place to rectify the situation.


Yup... did it! about a year ago...


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> This is exactly what determined the failure. It was that thin membrane layer. In my prep I could have scraped that off.... Never knew it would be an issue... I have seen the back of the chip myself and the test that SW put the chip through determined the same thing.
> 
> So, no... it was not product failure (except for the crappy primer...), it was my failure to recognize the appropriate steps to accomplish the goal effectively.



Ahh, this is not something you scrape, but remove with chems and wash, but I think you just had a lapse of prep thought there.:thumbsup:

How many years had the cedar been up?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Have you ever downstreamed?


Wouldnt that be difficult with that roof?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Wouldnt that be difficult with that roof?


Any wash is going to be difficult with that roof. That is why I am concerned for J now. I remember the great deck debacle of '08, and I am not going to advise him on a method that he is not experienced with.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Any wash is going to be difficult with that roof. That is why I am concerned for J now. I remember the great deck debacle of '08, and I am not going to advise him on a method that he is not experienced with.


Looks like V needs to take a cross country road trip.. while your swing thru IL I pay for the coffee...


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Ahh, this is not something you scrape, but remove with chems and wash, but I think you just had a lapse of prep thought there.:thumbsup:
> 
> How many years had the cedar been up?


I gotcha!

The cedar has been up since the build in 2000. 9 years.

-------

I have some ideas for water run-off and roof protection. Lots of thick plastic and duct tape!!! :yes:

Seriously, any suggestions for roof protection is a plus here. :notworthy:


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Ya know, if I was going to Paint it, rather than stain it, I honestly would have done pretty much the same procedure except using the A-100 oil with two coats of Duration. I would have "cleaned" it but would not have stripped it with the substrate to receive paint rathger than stain. I honestly do not have that much experience with cedar shake around here. I would have thought a better cleaning (not stripping) with a better primer would have been fine. So this is wrong?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Wouldnt that be difficult with that roof?



Jason, You could offer a roof cleaning with your siding wash. It might be a way to avoid the roof shake ordeal and make some money on your time. Even if you made some, you would not have to worry about spotting that roof. You could also offer sealing the roof.

Just what you need huh, another can of worms.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Just what you need huh, another can of worms.



Yup..... 

Ok guys... dinner is calling and I need a break from this subject...

cya l8ter


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Tonyg said:


> Ya know, if I was going to Paint it, rather than stain it, I honestly would have done pretty much the same procedure except using the A-100 oil with two coats of Duration. I would have "cleaned" it but would not have stripped it with the substrate to receive paint rathger than stain. I honestly do not have that much experience with cedar shake around here. I would have thought a better cleaning (not stripping) with a better primer would have been fine. So this is wrong?


A good cleaning with a good chem and a better primer applied certainly would have performed better.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Jason, You could offer a roof cleaning with your siding wash. It might be a way to avoid the roof shake ordeal and make some money on your time. Even if you made some, you would not have to worry about spotting that roof. You could also offer sealing the roof.
> 
> Just what you need huh, another can of worms.


That might be the best advice he has got tonight.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That might be the best advice he has got tonight.


Have you forgotten the great deck debacle of '08? I dont think we want to send Jason down the wrong road here. Lets keep it simple.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

How much time was there between the wash and the primer?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Have you forgotten the great deck debacle of '08? I dont think we want to send Jason down the wrong road here. Lets keep it simple.


I know .....but can you imagine being the HO and J starts duct taping plastic to your roof before washing? I would freak out on him. Washing the roof might be the simplest thing to do at this point.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That might be the best advice he has got tonight.


Hey, Thanks a-hole:jester:

Might even be able to turn a profit?? Doubt it. 

Good luck J! Let us know how it turns out. PICS!!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I know .....but can you imagine being the HO and J starts duct taping plastic to your roof before washing? I would freak out on him. Washing the roof might be the simplest thing to do at this point.


You and I know that wont work, but the homeowner won't.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Hey, Thanks a-hole:jester:
> 
> Might even be able to turn a profit?? Doubt it.
> 
> Good luck J! Let us know how it turns out. PICS!!


I know I am.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I know .....but can you imagine being the HO and J starts duct taping plastic to your roof before washing? I would freak out on him. Washing the roof might be the simplest thing to do at this point.



I hear ya with the HO. If I were in Jason's shoes, I would be more worried about the roof than the HO probably has a clue about. With all that water and chems I don't know if I would trust any tape. Definately nervous nelly!!

Double post: Writing while Scott was posting. Same idea=no bueano roof.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Dang... you guys mak-n me think that replacing the siding is the better option all around.... lol....

I have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO experience in this stripping process.. any advise is better than none. Thanks to all for your input thus far and to come. :yes:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You should just email VP. The guy is a expert with cedar and I'm sure he could walk you through the correct process.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

If you wore whites this wouldn't have happened
:jester:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

or call him.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> You should just email VP. The guy is a expert with cedar and I'm sure he could walk you through the correct process.


This is no longer a cedar issue. It is a stripping issue. I would have to defer to our most knowledgeable washing member, Daniel Tambasco. He would be the one to consult. He would be able to explain the ins and outs of caustics v. percarbs, downstreaming v. x-jet and how to do the darn thing without even raising a ladder. Just don't try to hire him to come and do the work.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Bender said:


> If you wore whites this wouldn't have happened
> :jester:



:thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> This is no longer a cedar issue. It is a stripping issue. I would have to defer to our most knowledgeable washing member, Daniel Tambasco. He would be the one to consult. He would be able to explain the ins and outs of caustics v. percarbs, downstreaming v. x-jet and how to do the darn thing without even raising a ladder. Just don't try to hire him to come and do the work.


I think the two of you could help. Sometimes I get you guys confused. How was it rooming with him at the show?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I think the two of you could help. Sometimes I get you guys confused. How was it rooming with him at the show?


GM is not going to appreciate that comment.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DAMN where were you guys when I was still painting ?!?! 

cedar shakes have caused me more problems on re-paints than any other.

We had on house that we scraped the bejesus out of, primed (BM oil) and applied BM House Paint (this was in mid-80's). one year later there were big problems. No repercussions, but we felt REAL bad.


It was hence told me by "others" when I managed a small Mom & Pop that the tannin in the cedar (more in red shakes than white) would reject paint - perhaps moisture was also a problem. 

One solution I was told by those "others"was to use Linssed oil primer (California Universal Primer - this was 1989) and Calif ext 100% acrylic house paint.

I am throwing this out for opinions, NOT as gospel.


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## dtrane65 (Mar 31, 2009)

daArch said:


> DAMN where were you guys when I was still painting ?!?!
> 
> cedar shakes have caused me more problems on re-paints than any other.
> 
> ...



It has always been my experience that using linseed oil is an invitation for mold or mildew.

I always use Problem Solver as my first coat over cedar and this was before they only offered the quick dry formula....I used the new formula last summer and have not gotten any call backs, however the slow dry worked so well for me I wish they never messed with it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Bender said:


> If you wore whites this wouldn't have happened
> :jester:


I wished some one would have told me about this !!!  I could of sacrificed my denim for a couple days....


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I wished some one would have told me about this !!!  I could of sacrificed my denim for a couple days....



You a denim painter J? I would not have commented on your predicament if I knew this.:jester: C'mon though, dress the part Donatello!


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

painttofish said:


> You a denim painter J?


:brows:










Dang... I miss those shoes....


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

why not use a stain like SW's deckscapes? It is a tintable stain. It is opaque and made for decks, why not use it for shake shingles/siding?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

You've got to get off your knees! Not necessary.:no:


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

painttofish said:


> You've got to get off your knees! Not necessary.:no:


I hear ya... The deck that followed this one was done standing up like that pick of yours.... when I go to service the deck in that pic of mine above us up there, you better bet I'll be standing... I'll also be applying the stain differently too. That there deck up there was my first and I learned alot of new things about decks and subs during the process... VP calls it


vermontpainter said:


> the great deck debacle of '08





nEighter said:


> why not use a stain like SW's deckscapes? It is a tintable stain. It is opaque and made for decks, why not use it for shake shingles/siding?


I did:










As for staining Cedar gables ect... No problem! I just *didn't think* about it at the time of the job..... SW will match the color of the house (in OP) in Deskscapes solid stain... I already called to be sure of it. I will be giving the HO this option.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> GM is not going to appreciate that comment.


 
NEPS, you should have been there. Simple Cherry and no ladders. A good time was had by all. We could have used a little more painter influence, though.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This is no longer a cedar issue. It is a stripping issue. I would have to defer to our most knowledgeable washing member, Daniel Tambasco. He would be the one to consult. He would be able to explain the ins and outs of caustics v. percarbs, downstreaming v. x-jet and how to do the darn thing without even raising a ladder. Just don't try to hire him to come and do the work.


 
I think he put down an oil primer and two coats of Duration. That should be 6 or 7 mils on those shakes. Using caustics and a PW is only going to take off about 1 mil each application and I doubt it would be recommended for stripping that much fresh paint. Pulling out a stain, even a solid stain, is very much different with a wood resto to restain than removing that much filmed paint. 

I would think you are looking at heavy duty paint strippers, With this option the roof would be protected but I wouldnt think the run off would be as detrimental as streaming caustics down it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

1 coat - prep-rite quick seal 

1 coat of Duration


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

what about using a paint shaver?You wont have to worry about the roof and it will clean up the cedar


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

That is a good idea


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Tonyg said:


> I think he put down an oil primer and two coats of Duration. That should be 6 or 7 mils on those shakes. Using caustics and a PW is only going to take off about 1 mil each application and I doubt it would be recommended for stripping that much fresh paint. Pulling out a stain, even a solid stain, is very much different with a wood resto to restain than removing that much filmed paint.
> 
> I would think you are looking at heavy duty paint strippers, With this option the roof would be protected but I wouldnt think the run off would be as detrimental as streaming caustics down it.


Tony

I agree in principle. What would make me consider caustics is the following:

a) the failure appears to be at the primer/substrate level which means it should be pretty easy to get behind it and get it to release. Mother Nature has it half way there and the caustics are bad enough to do the rest. 

b) Caustics, at least the ones I deal with through a supplier who I think we both use, is marketed as not intended for use on film forming coatings. Our supplier told me that this is in fact not the case and we used it last year for Sikkens strips on a deck and a cedar sided house and the stuff was phenomenal. When they call it "potent enough to be downstreamed" they are not kidding. 

c) With regard to the roof, I wouldnt even attempt duct tape and plastic as the protective measure. It doesnt work. Water will find its way in (thanks to lack of adhesion to the roof profile or flashing, and the WIND), and once its under the plastic its a mess. I think I would fear the neutralization process over the roof as much as the strip.

I know how I would go about dealing with preventing chem infiltration on the roof, but I don't want to be making suggestions here that could take an already tenuous situation to a whole nother level. We know Jason well enough to know that he is probably not ready for a relatively advanced washing procedure (ds-ing chems over a weathered wood roof). I am sure Jason will find a practical way to resolve the fundamental problem without it escalating.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Scott, When you are coating new red cedar with a solid oil stain, are you priming first or just applying the stain?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

painttofish said:


> Scott, When you are coating new red cedar with a solid oil stain, are you priming first or just applying the stain?


Are you serious?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think it is a fair question VP.

Around here, all exterior cedar is prefinished with one coat of solid stain with a final coat after installation.

However, oil stain does not really hold back tannin bleed much, an oil primer seems like a good idea.

My BM rep feels that a coat of oil primer (094) with two coats of acrylic stain would be better. Then, tinted 094 (they have another product that is the same, but comes in bases) with one coat acrylic stain would be next best, and the oil coat of oil stain plus a second coat of oil or acrylic stain would be the 3rd best option.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Are you serious?


Umm, Yes. I haven't heard what your procedure was after all the posting and thought it might be helpful.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I am not aware of an oil stain that is not built to penetrate. That being the case, applying primer first would prevent the stain from doing what it is intended to do. 

It may be a regional variance, but in my state, stained houses - even solid - are intended to be more organic, weathered than solid painted houses. Many of our jobs take clear oil, so tannins are not an issue. The solid stained ones usually have enough depth of color to camoflauge tannin as it starts to emerge. If you were doing light colors it would be a big problem.

The whole concept of the stained house here, is for people who want the wood grain to show. They do not want their house to look like it has a shell of paint on it. That being the case, there is some tolerance for wood to be wood. Paint grade, different story. Tannins in cedar are like knots in pine. Do what you want, the wood always wins.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

painttofish said:


> Umm, Yes. I haven't heard what your procedure was after all the posting and thought it might be helpful.


Again, if you have an oil stain that is not designed to penetrate and you have a customer that doesnt have tolerance for the organic nature of wood, then yes, I would prime it first. I have not yet experienced any of these conditions, especially the first. 

Sorry about all the posting.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I treat stain like stain as well. It is meant to penetrate. The tannin issue is why I asked. Would you go all SERIOUS on me If I would have asked the same question about Acrylic? That to is a stain as well and oil primer is used before it. Responses like that prevent people from asking questions.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

painttofish said:


> I treat stain like stain as well. It is meant to penetrate. The tannin issue is why I asked. Would you go all SERIOUS on me If I would have asked the same question about Acrylic? That to is a stain as well and oil primer is used before it. Responses like that prevent people from asking questions.


p2f

I'm sorry you took that question the way you did. I thought it went without saying that oil stains penetrate and that a primer would prevent that. It was surprising to me after your cogent explanation of 5 year cedar seasoning, thats all. No offense intended. I didnt want to spend alot of time typing out a thoughtful answer (which I did, and apparently you do not appreciate it as much as the opportunity to complain about my initial response) unless I knew for sure that that was your question, like for instance you didnt really mean to say acrylic stain and it was a typo. Acrylics, by the way don't penetrate, and so yes I would prime under that if tannin was a concern.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I am not aware of an oil stain that is not built to penetrate. That being the case, applying primer first would prevent the stain from doing what it is intended to do.



That is the trade off. The 094 primer has a relabeled can that specifically designated as a primer for under acrylic stain. I was always somewhat confused by this for the reasons you mention above. If primer seals the surface, is the stain doing anything different from a flat paint? I guess there is still significantly less film build as rough cedar still looks rough and not painted, but I wonder how breathability is affected. 

Interestingly enough, I asked the rep about the 100 primer (that is the looooooong oil primer, so thick and slow dry it is almost ridiculous). That one is more for under paint, but it lets the wood breath more (which I would not have guessed) but does not hold back tannins.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> That is the trade off. The 094 primer has a relabeled can that specifically designated as a primer for under acrylic stain. I was always somewhat confused by this for the reasons you mention above. If primer seals the surface, is the stain doing anything different from a flat paint? I guess there is still significantly less film build as rough cedar still looks rough and not painted, but I wonder how breathability is affected.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I asked the rep about the 100 primer (that is the looooooong oil primer, so thick and slow dry it is almost ridiculous). That one is more for under paint, but it lets the wood breath more (which I would not have guessed) but does not hold back tannins.


 
It does sort of depend on whats in fashion in the area you are working in. I guess I am of the school that appreciates wood character, which stain enhances. Too much film disguises it. I would rather see a house fade than flake over time and I appreciate low maintenance. 

We did a house last year in Aura and the house was yellow. We replaced a bunch of siding using red cedar, oil primed with two coats of Aura on top. Tannins came through in some areas in the first week. Alot of that depends on exposure.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It is definitely a lot of trade offs. Traditionally, first coat hear on cedar is solid oil stain, second coat could be either acrylic stain or oil and repaints are almost always acrylic. I think solid oil has more flaking problems than acrylic after a few coats. It seems to build more of a film and lacks the flexibility of acrylics IMHO.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> It is definitely a lot of trade offs. Traditionally, first coat hear on cedar is solid oil stain, second coat could be either acrylic stain or oil and repaints are almost always acrylic. I think solid oil has more flaking problems than acrylic after a few coats. It seems to build more of a film and lacks the flexibility of acrylics IMHO.


Honestly, overapplication is the only time I see it turn too filmy. We have used primarily Cabot for a very long time. But its the same with Penofin or most oils, over applying is a big no no. If its coming out of the factory with a dipped coat, I would make it a late season second coat and wash first to buy as much penetration as possible. Thats where rough cedar, like shakes, are a two edged sword. Its so rough that there is alot of "tooth" and if its not clean or if its overapplied it can't get in but will hold on top for a while, then start to self destruct. At the risk of sounding like a wood snob, which I am, its as much about understanding substrates (wood species characteristics) as it is understanding products. 

This is the fundamental issue that caused Jason's coating to fail. This has been a great thread to explore the roots of a widespread failure.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> p2f
> 
> I'm sorry you took that question the way you did. I thought it went without saying that oil stains penetrate and that a primer would prevent that. It was surprising to me after your cogent explanation of 5 year cedar seasoning, thats all. No offense intended. I didnt want to spend alot of time typing out a thoughtful answer (which I did, and apparently you do not appreciate it as much as the opportunity to complain about my initial response) unless I knew for sure that that was your question, like for instance you didnt really mean to say acrylic stain and it was a typo. Acrylics, by the way don't penetrate, and so yes I would prime under that if tannin was a concern.



VP, I think we all appreciate your feedback and comments. I was simply asking your procedure since I see this is something you do a lot of (finish new red cedar).

When I said "after all the posting" I was referring to the long thread and not you. I think solid acrylic is a stain for a reason and primer seals the wood and does not allow it to function like a stain. of course then you have the tannin issue.

Off to dinner.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

painttofish said:


> VP, I think we all appreciate your feedback and comments. I was simply asking your procedure since I see this is something you do a lot of (finish new red cedar).
> 
> When I said "after all the posting" I was referring to the long thread and not you. I think solid acrylic is a stain for a reason and primer seals the wood and does not allow it to function like a stain. of course then you have the tannin issue.
> 
> Off to dinner.


Misunderstanding understood. I think we are clear, er, solid now.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Funny posts PF.....isnt this the same question I asked last night? Woodscapes/A-100 combo?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Great info Scott. Thanks.


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This has been a great thread to explore the roots of a widespread failure.


I 2nd that...great thread & site....you guys are the bomb....'cept that a-hole neps...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Slingah said:


> I 2nd that...great thread & site....you guys are the bomb....'cept that a-hole neps...


I agree. Great post. I'm heading to Marshfield with a bat ...see you guys in an hour.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Funny posts PF.....isnt this the same question I asked last night? Woodscapes/A-100 combo?



Nope, you asked about a prime coat under woodscapes (an acrylic). I asked what Scotts procedure was for oil stain.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Read your 127 again ..... looks like that is what you are saying.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

The tannin bleed with new red cedar was the issue. Scott admits this happens even with solid oil stain which is why I asked him how he finishes new red cedar. Questioning him on how he handles this issue or his initial finishing techniques is not out of this world or funny. It really has nothing to do with what we all talked about last night. How things are perceived or interpreted on-line can make communication difficult sometimes. You are all a great wealth of knowledge.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

painttofish said:


> I treat stain like stain as well. It is meant to penetrate. The tannin issue is why I asked. Would you go all SERIOUS on me If I would have asked the same question about Acrylic? That to is a stain as well and oil primer is used before it. Responses like that prevent people from asking questions.



NEPS, This is another problem with reading and misunderstanding what I was trying to convey. Maybe I am not good at this. Scotts initial shock was my asking about priming under oil stain simply because I hadn't heard his procedures. Above I was assimilating the need to prime under acrylic stain. Being that they are both classified as stains, and they both bleed tannins, and they both need to be able to perform like a stain, I brought up the acrylic example. Not saying they are the same, but that they are both stains and I think that with new cedar, issues can be had with priming due to cedars natural resistant properties to rot and not being able to breath. This is why last night and now I am a proponent of transparent's on new cedar. I just see a contradiction between everyone excepting oil priming under acrylic stain and complete shock with priming under oil stain. I am not a fan of either. And if you don't prime under both, tannin issues can be had. This was all I was trying to convey.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

p2f

Now that I fully understand your question earlier, in the context of tannin bleed, the question becomes: if you intend to use solid (or any) oil stain, would you oil prime first to try to stop tannin bleed? The answer, although it would still be no, boils down to the performance compromise that would result. The oil primer would penetrate the cedar, then the stain would sit on top, unable to penetrate. It would wash off or wear down fairly quickly, exposing the primer. Oil primer has no uv resistance and needs to be sufficiently topcoated, and therefore would fail. In any kind of an exposure, I would give this about a year. I don't believe you were suggesting this as a system, and it was just a question out of curiosity. So, ultimately, to answer your question, if its oil stain its going right on the cedar directly. When we prefinish, then it gets installed, we try to give it several months of exposure before doing another coat. We have one sitting out there right now from last summer that we will topcoat this fall (14 months later).


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> p2f
> 
> Now that I fully understand your question earlier, in the context of tannin bleed, the question becomes: if you intend to use solid (or any) oil stain, would you oil prime first to try to stop tannin bleed? The answer, although it would still be no, boils down to the performance compromise that would result. The oil primer would penetrate the cedar, then the stain would sit on top, unable to penetrate. It would wash off or wear down fairly quickly, exposing the primer. Oil primer has no uv resistance and needs to be sufficiently topcoated, and therefore would fail. In any kind of an exposure, I would give this about a year. I don't believe you were suggesting this as a system, and it was just a question out of curiosity. So, ultimately, to answer your question, if its oil stain its going right on the cedar directly. When we prefinish, then it gets installed, we try to give it several months of exposure before doing another coat. We have one sitting out there right now from last summer that we will topcoat this fall (14 months later).



I agree about staining without primer, just asked to see if you had some products or procedures that worked for you that I didn't know about. Certainly not suggesting this as a system as I don't even like solid coats on new cedar (personal preference). Do you ever have issues with bleed after the second coat of solid oil stain?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

painttofish said:


> How things are perceived or interpreted on-line can make communication difficult sometimes. .


I agree.



painttofish said:


> NEPS, This is another problem with reading and misunderstanding what I was trying to convey. Maybe I am not good at this. Scotts initial shock was my asking about priming under oil stain simply because I hadn't heard his procedures. Above I was assimilating the need to prime under acrylic stain. Being that they are both classified as stains, and they both bleed tannins, and they both need to be able to perform like a stain, I brought up the acrylic example. Not saying they are the same, but that they are both stains and I think that with new cedar, issues can be had with priming due to cedars natural resistant properties to rot and not being able to breath. This is why last night and now I am a proponent of transparent's on new cedar. I just see a contradiction between everyone excepting oil priming under acrylic stain and complete shock with priming under oil stain. I am not a fan of either. And if you don't prime under both, tannin issues can be had. This was all I was trying to convey.


 
I have always been trained that you need oil for a first coat on shakes. If oil stain then two coat, unless bleaching oil or weathering stain ....then one coat, if acrylic - oil prime and top coat. In my experience latex stains do not act the same and oil stains when applied directly to bare cedar, or any wood. But this only applies to solid stains. No primer for semi trans. I also thought that oil priming is necessary because you are only applying paint to less than half of the entire shake. There is plenty of "bare" wood for breathing, especially if over a Tyvek.

I have done maintenence on Maybeck shingles (pre-dipped cabots solid and semi trans) were the shingles are 100% dipped. They hold up fantastic.

I think that conditions (temp and moisture) combined with quality products and proper prep and the three factors we can all agree on. There are many ways to skin a cat. We've all had success in our own ways. ....except Jay.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow. This was a great thread.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

yeah it was


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

indeed.. how is our painter friend from oregon these days?


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Hey MAK, doing well for what it is... 

Just as an update to the original post, I ended up paying a professional "paint stripping" company to remove the primer and paint to bare wood, then scrubbed with bleach and water solution with a rinse and applied 2 coats of SW WoodScapes about 2 weeks later. I am so relieved! The job is holding well AND I still have a great relationship with the homeowner. 

Thanks to all (topic participants) your advice!


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Hey MAK, doing well for what it is...
> 
> Just as an update to the original post, I ended up paying a professional "paint stripping" company to remove the primer and paint to bare wood, then scrubbed with bleach and water solution with a rinse and applied 2 coats of SW WoodScapes about 2 weeks later. I am so relieved! The job is holding well AND I still have a great relationship with the homeowner.
> 
> Thanks to all (topic participants) your advice!



Glad to hear...


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

I am wondering if you all discussed the shakes not being back primed? I quit reading at post # 100.

1. I have always heard that redwood/cedar siding should be back primed, I live on the coast of CA and it is used a lot. 
2. The other idea is that if the house does not have a proper vapor barrier the heating from the inside of the house will cook it off.
3. I have always used both Cabot's-latex and oil stains independently without primer with no issues,again I am a left coaster which is a different climate all together. 

I have used sand attachments w/powerwasher with good results but it was a hand split shake with the extremely raised grain and this was the only way really because they did not have the caustic strippers 15 years ago.

Sometimes mother nature is just going to let everyone know the she is the boss, after all painting those shakes is like trying to put a condom on a tree. It's not going to be easy and if you don't buy the right brand it's going to tear.

I wonder if roofing felt would protect the roof without being slippery. Staple/nail it down and overlap it. Could also build a troft with some gutter to trap the goop. Good luck dude and honestly if I were in your neck of the woods I would volunteer to come help you.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

Glad to hear it all worked out.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Jason
> 
> Glad to hear it all worked out.


Ditto to that. 

Jason, when you first did this did you use paint on the siding or did you use a siding stain? What did you use the second time around? (sorry didn't read the whole thread). 

I've done lots of houses with cedar siding and never had a problem - I use a latex/alkyd hybrid siding stain from GP called superstain. PITA to work with that stuff but it never fails.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I used a fast drying primer (Mistake!!!) and two topcoats of Duration Ext paint. Other factors that did not help was insufficient prep before priming. (This was my first cedar siding repaint/stain job.)... It was a learning experience, not regrettable by far.

After I had all that professionally removed, I scrubbed it clean with bleach and water then stained it with Sherwin Williams WoodScapes solid stain (waterborne). 2 Coats.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I used a fast drying primer (Mistake!!!) and two topcoats of Duration Ext paint. Other factors that did not help was insufficient prep before priming. (This was my first cedar siding repaint/stain job.)... It was a learning experience, not regrettable by far.
> 
> After I had all that professionally removed, I scrubbed it clean with bleach and water then stained it with Sherwin Williams WoodScapes solid stain (waterborne). 2 Coats.


Ya know, it's when things get really hairy that you have the biggest opportunity to make a great impression, and I bet you did with this client!

I'm willing to bet he'll be a customer for life. Good job :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Rcon said:


> Ya know, it's when things get really hairy that you have the biggest opportunity to make a great impression, and I bet you did with this client!
> 
> I'm willing to bet he'll be a customer for life. Good job :thumbsup:


I think so.

He mentioned some interior painting for the future. :thumbup:


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

Tonyg said:


> Ya know, if I was going to Paint it, rather than stain it, I honestly would have done pretty much the same procedure except using the A-100 oil with two coats of Duration. I would have "cleaned" it but would not have stripped it with the substrate to receive paint rathger than stain. I honestly do not have that much experience with cedar shake around here. I would have thought a better cleaning (not stripping) with a better primer would have been fine. So this is wrong?


The one thing that no one has brought up is that Duration has a very hard bite and is known to peel underlying coating away from the substrate! 

Your rep sure as $hit ain't going to bring that up. There are several threads where myself and others recommend not using duration on repaints. I think that generalization could be extended to cedar and softwoods that may easily delaminate. I'd be totally behind duration on new hardibacker and that's about it.

I say solid stain for primer with superpaint topcoat.


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