# Estimating by sq. ft.



## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

I never do estimates by the sq. ft. but I may have a situation where I might. I recently met a contractor who deals in forclosures. Once a house forcloses he gains access to the house, changes locks, and does whatever work neccessary to sell the home. He said more often than not that is carpet cleaning and painting. We started talking and he needs a painter. He estimates his painting by the sq ft to the bank and they either accept or deny. His number is $3.50/ sq. ft. All one color (navajo white) flat, no furniture, no home owners. It seems like 9 times out of 10 if I came at $3.00/sq.ft I would still make money. Of course there are jobs where there is a ton of trim or 20 ft high ceilings then that number would not work, but I would make it up on anoter job. Does any one have a similar agreement with a contractor that works.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Brother, *if it works for you*, have at it. Asking for others number is just gonna open up a can of worms.


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

Yea I probably shouldn't have put a number to it. Not what I was trying to do. I was just wondering if you were opposed to doing somthing like that


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

ogre said:


> Yea I probably shouldn't have put a number to it. Not what I was trying to do. I was just wondering if you were opposed to doing somthing like that


I know you are looking for some feed back brother. It's just, pricing is a very touchy subject here. WW II will start up and turn this thread upside down.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ogre said:


> His number is $3.50/ sq. ft. .


It sounds like he is looking for a formula to estimate what his profit could be. Its not like new construction or commercial work where the parameters are usually constant.
Try pricing it out several different ways ....man days + materials + overhead..... sq/ft .... and even a % of the anticipated sale price ...see what numbers work for you ....it is always good to try different methods to check youself..... it also depends on your situation ...overhead ...how busy you are .... Ive done work like this for some scummy house flippers before and just used it for filler work....sometimes you gotta make payroll ...cash flow work.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

Depends witch it is if floor or wall. I will not do floor because you lose to much control of the numbers. We have a company that want me to due there painting they pay only by the floor sq. If we did it we would be taking all most a cut in half in pay. If you real want to open your eyes take some of the PDCA estimating classes. The bigest thing you can do is keep GOOD TIME studys.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

The _only_ way I'd ever think of pricing by the sf would be if it was multiple tract homes, all nearly identical. Do a couple, figure it out, and price them that way. But if they are always different, I wouldn't touch give any universal price. I could look at the job, figure my price, _then_ divide it by the sf and say there you go. 

Plus, with the RE market the way it is today, I'd be real gun shy to do work for someone who makes their money off flipping or reselling homes. If these homes don't sell, will you get paid?


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

...also, you may want to pack some heat


I am not kidding


Some of these people will not be particularly happy about the situation


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## NuView Painting (Sep 25, 2007)

My take on this is that the Contractor told you his bidding 3.50 to the bank so in your mind you know you cant go over that because he wont give you the job...so you will bid lower than that..belive me...hes getting more than 3.50.. I would do surface area not floor area.. you might be better off making a by the day salary make yours no matter what..just something to think about


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## Boden Painting (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't know, I run across this a lot and the # you gave seems to be a pretty average price for what contractors are getting in these parts (upstate NY). Usually they're charging 3.50 sq/ft and paying 3 or less to the painter. There is always somebody who will grab it at that number. I can paint a 13x13 bedroom, with 1 double hung window,1 door and 1 closet easily in a day and make $500. Not a bad day. Would I do it all the time? No, but on occasion I sure will.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Boden Painting said:


> I don't know, I run across this a lot and the # you gave seems to be a pretty average price for what contractors are getting in these parts (upstate NY). Usually they're charging 3.50 sq/ft and paying 3 or less to the painter. There is always somebody who will grab it at that number. I can paint a 13x13 bedroom, with 1 double hung window,1 door and 1 closet easily in a day and make $500. Not a bad day. Would I do it all the time? No, but on occasion I sure will.


my math may be a little off.......but .....that sounds like $507 [email protected] $3.00 per sq/ft ..169 sq ft....minus materials and overhead .......I don't think your making $500 for the day ..... Sq/ft pricing is fine for basic new construction, some commercial and any volume type production work .... not for a room ... you will go broke.


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## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

As far as foreclosures go, my experience is very limited, but with one house there were so many holes in the walls(16) the realtor told the bank that no one would buy the place with so many holes. Also, the carpet wreaked of animal urine and had to be replaced. I have been told that the banks do not want to put out any money. I did the job, but it took several months to get paid. I think that the properties that are foreclosed are an untapped market, but maybe they do not need to look good and are sold "as is".

Happy painting, Paul.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

If you "take it". You may want to make sure it is for just applying paint. Not fixing the holes, caulking the trim, several touch ups. ect.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Take an average bedroom repaint, 12x14 - that would be $588 going by your $3.50 per floor sq.ft. I personally wouldnt' get out of bed for that - something that is going to take the better half of a week for one man to accomplish - from everything to loading up your van, fetching materials, prep, paint, clean up - move everything back to your van - if I was guaranteed I could do it all in a day - then sure - but I haven't done the smallest bathrooms in a day - half the time you are standing around waiting for things to dry.


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## Boden Painting (Dec 27, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> my math may be a little off.......but .....that sounds like $507 [email protected] $3.00 per sq/ft ..169 sq ft....minus materials and overhead .......I don't think your making $500 for the day ..... Sq/ft pricing is fine for basic new construction, some commercial and any volume type production work .... not for a room ... you will go broke.


I concur, and with my customers I wouldn't do it for that price,. However, I can't always get the people that want to pay to have it done our way. But when I do, they get the treatment, sanding between coats, fixing and filling holes, etc. and it would take me a good part of a week to paint that size room. This guy seems to be hooking up with a flipper whose bottom line is profit. Most of the people I've dealt with like that don't care about sanding between coats, fixing nail holes (heck, even taking the nails out of the wall). Basically you're just "freshening the place up" ,single coat of the same color over what you have. I make the GC buy materials at that price. 
Sorry, should have clarified a little more on the details. And like I said before, I wouldn't,and don't, take them all the time, but on occasion when I'm slow or am looking for a little money to go play with I'll take one.


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## thepainterr4you (Feb 8, 2008)

*bank question*

I did morgages for 10 years if the person is buying foreclosures and flipping them. He does the work and the bank has nothing to do with cost of paint. He buys the properties put what he feels is needed in it to sell it then he sells it. Once the banks sells it to him they could carelesss what he does...they have already taken a loss average loss on a foreclosure is 50K+....

have no idea why he would have to tell bank anything...

Even when he sells the property the person that is buying it does an appraisal and interior paint means nothing on an appraisal.....exterior does....


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

The contractor is contracted by the bank to make the house "sellable". The bank has already taken a significant hit on the property, and want to clean the house up the best they can so they can sell it as quickly as possible. His business is very interesting. We talked in great length at what he does. He said most of his homes are either 1000 sq.ft. condos or 3000+ sq ft. single family with a nasty divorce. I met him next door to my house where he was working on the later of the two.


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## wannabe1 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hey Ogre: A freind just got his real estate license and is looking for a painter. I've painted my own stuff, and a few jobs for close friends at or about cost. NOw, with much more work on the horizon, I'm trying to figure out how to bid. I note your S.F. price is $3. Is that for the dimensions of the room floor, or the dimensions of the walls?

Thx.


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## Mopaint (Oct 17, 2007)

As long as the money is good. Like paid in full in 30 days or less, you will do fine at that price. I would tell him this is a guidline and take it on a case by case agreement. Squ. foot pricing has never made sense to me but I realize a need to give people something to go by. I lot of people don't know if a room costs 100 or 1000 to paint. Again, use it as a guidline. If you get a house with 16' vaulted ceiling you would get burned. Hope this helps. MOPAINT


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## babflores (May 1, 2008)

Hello new to the site, doing to do a job but I don't know how much to bid it is painting a garage and do some caulking, can someone help!!!!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Go to search section and enter estimating.


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## Bluevan4 (May 2, 2008)

*Estimate woes*

I just found this site and it has already been a great help to read that others have much frustration with pricing.
I have been painting as a contractor for over twelve years now and still find estimating very difficult.
I use all the methods and formulas as a guide but it still seems to always come down to my "gut instincts" if will. A lot of estimating is guessing in my opinion anyway.
I am a very thurough painter and do not like to cut any corners when it comes to prep.
The problem I am having is when I estimate on what I think is the low side I end up making less than $25 per hour, if I Est. on the higher side $40 per hour I lose a lot of bids. Painters in my area are working real cheap these days. I have a great reputation amongst those who know me but the last couple of years I have spent too much time estimating and losing too many of the good jobs with new customers.
I just lost a bid on a 18 room very difficult scale residential older home with new addition. I bid $24,000.00 including materials and figured around five hundred hours to complete. In this particular case the very educated profesional owner who probably earns close to a million a year, pretty much accused me of being a crook!
Any comments would be appreciated.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

use several different techniques to estimate, and compare them,,,


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Bluevan4 said:


> I just found this site and it has already been a great help to read that others have much frustration with pricing.
> I have been painting as a contractor for over twelve years now and still find estimating very difficult.
> I use all the methods and formulas as a guide but it still seems to always come down to my "gut instincts" if will. A lot of estimating is guessing in my opinion anyway.
> I am a very thurough painter and do not like to cut any corners when it comes to prep.
> ...


Welcome aboard. When you say, you loose to many estimates, do you know your exact closing rate??? After studing many sucesseful painting contractors, I found a good close ratio for most is around 33%
and after tracking my numbers , my close rate was similar. So most are loosing more bids then winning them. The guys winning all their bids are usually the guys that are are not tracking their numbers and not making any money on the jobs, but dont know it, because they are not tracking their numbers.

Weather you bid bid square foot or by the hour, it all comes down to production rates, wich you have to have in order to have a accurate estimate, only way to get that is to start timming yourself for every task you do. Dont forget to add set up and prep, and clean up, typically if a door takes 15 minutes to paint, I allow 30 minutes.

As far as that HO calling you a crook, sounds like a good thing you didnt get the job, I wouldnt want to work for a jerk like that.


dave mac


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

Bluevan4 said:


> I just found this site and it has already been a great help to read that others have much frustration with pricing.
> I have been painting as a contractor for over twelve years now and still find estimating very difficult.
> I use all the methods and formulas as a guide but it still seems to always come down to my "gut instincts" if will. A lot of estimating is guessing in my opinion anyway.
> I am a very thurough painter and do not like to cut any corners when it comes to prep.
> ...


As Dave Mac said, if you know your production rates then your estimating can be pretty accurate.

As far as being called a crook, consider the source and the basis for his evaluation. He likely got a much lower price and that is the basis of his comparison. But that could be akin to someone calling Lexus a crook if one compares their prices to a Yugo.

Learning good sales skills can help overcome such attitudes. To command a higher price, we must first offer more value. And then we must communicate that value in terms of the benefit to the customer.

Brian Phillips


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## Wing 54 (Jan 3, 2008)

I purchased the 2008 Craftsman Estimator for 2008 because of very same problem. My closings have increased as well as understanding estimating. They also have a very good support system for questions.


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## Bluevan4 (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the comments & help. I guess I get most of the jobs I bid on except the "big ones" that every painter likes to get. I do a lot of jobs under five thousand and and every now and then one that hits over thirty. Seems like most folks including myself get nervous when the money is this high.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Bluevan4 said:


> . Seems like most folks including myself get nervous when the money is this high.


:no: :no: :no: :no:


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## paint_booger (Jul 1, 2007)

Fear of sucess?


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## Bluevan4 (May 2, 2008)

paint booger,
I think that could be a possibility!


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## paintguy3255 (May 30, 2008)

I do all residential repaints. I price all walls and ceilings by the sq. ft. But I do not price by floor sq. ft. I price by wall and ceiling sq. ft. The only help knowing the floor sq. ft. is to me, is it will tell me how much the ceiling will cost. Wood trim is priced by item. I don't know how else to do it accurately. 

That 13x 13 room 1 door 1 window 1 closet

$740

but if you are paint the closet door and frame also it would be

$893


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## meo814 (Apr 28, 2007)

*Help*

I am looking around at these estimating posts and i am truly feeling like an a**...for instance, your typical 12x14 bedroom with on closet with by pass doors and i double window and one entry door.are you guys really getting over 500 bucks for this??......what if there is crown all around the top and 9 foot cielings?? i just gave an estimate to someone for less than that and they said it was too high......im in NJ.any comments please feel free.also do you supply paint? they want to use bm.........no wonder im not surviving


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

meo814 said:


> I am looking around at these estimating posts and i am truly feeling like an a**...for instance, your typical 12x14 bedroom with on closet with by pass doors and i double window and one entry door.are you guys really getting over 500 bucks for this??......what if there is crown all around the top and 9 foot cielings?? i just gave an estimate to someone for less than that and they said it was too high......im in NJ.any comments please feel free.also do you supply paint? they want to use bm.........no wonder im not surviving


Sounds like your not marketing yourself to the right people. That size room with closet and the trim? yes over 500$ you don't get them all.. but the people not willing to pay for quality work are not truly looking for quality work.


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## meo814 (Apr 28, 2007)

are you including the paint as well...guess i need to make some serious changes:blink:


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Take an average bedroom repaint, 12x14 - that would be $588 going by your $3.50 per floor sq.ft. I personally wouldnt' get out of bed for that - something that is going to take the better half of a week for one man to accomplish - from everything to loading up your van, fetching materials, prep, paint, clean up - move everything back to your van - if I was guaranteed I could do it all in a day - then sure - but I haven't done the smallest bathrooms in a day - half the time you are standing around waiting for things to dry.


Wow, I've got men who will paint that room in 7 hours, trim, cieling and walls. I don't know if you are painting the whole thing with a 1 inch brush, but if a guy came to me and said Its going to take the better part of a week, he would find a new job. And before you retort with some kind of quality reply, I would put these men up against the best of the "custom" painters.


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## loser (Jun 12, 2008)

i totally agree with homeguard. 2 or 3 days to do a bedroom? i work for a company full time and do my own private work on week-ends. i do 3 bedrooms complete, minus closets in 16 to 20 hrs. thats caulking, patching, sanding, cleaning and priming where needed. 1 coat flat latex on ceilings, 2 coats eggshell on walls and 2 coats of semi gloss on trim. my customers are always more than happy.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I am not racing for a prize my friends, If I was on the job for that bedroom and had other work to do (more then one day) I would do the trim the second day always better that way.. If not I may try to squeeze it in the same day. But more then likely I would price it out accordingly for two trips. I am not trying to impress myself with how fast I do something. Its about the finish product and the quality and that what my clients expect.


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## meo814 (Apr 28, 2007)

this post has gotten off track.......i was asking everyones opinion on the pricing (for example) on a 12 x 14 bedroom.....one entry door, one bypass set of doors to closet, inside closet and one double window.also 4 inch crown all around......i gave a price of 400 and was told it was too high......and wanted to know if i am so off base as to how high i am or if i am very low and marketing to the wrong people.......also do you guys include paint...i did not.....please your opinions matter as this site has been very helpful to newbies


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Your price was low in my opinion, my prices always include paint won't do it any other way. I am the paint contractor they are the homeowner, they want to buy paint they can do it themselves.... move on to the next one.


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## meo814 (Apr 28, 2007)

Thanks Deco, I appreciate the input...what would you have done price wise if in fact the paint was included......also anyone elses input is appreciated as for some reason this is really bugging me........


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## acrylicrecoating (Jun 16, 2008)

Meo 
Want to know what is wrong with having the home owner get the paint?

The homeowner goes out and buys the cheapest paint they can find and then you are trying to pour water on the walls.

We are mostly exterior however when we do the interiors (winter only) we get the paint ourselves. We find that with the thin cheap paints it takes us twice as long as using our SW super paint.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

meo814 said:


> this post has gotten off track.......i was asking everyones opinion on the pricing (for example) on a 12 x 14 bedroom.....one entry door, one bypass set of doors to closet, inside closet and one double window.also 4 inch crown all around......i gave a price of 400 and was told it was too high......and wanted to know if i am so off base as to how high i am or if i am very low and marketing to the wrong people.......also do you guys include paint...i did not.....please your opinions matter as this site has been very helpful to newbies


 
Thats a bit low(even without paint). $400 would be a fair to slightly low price without the crown but that adds an extra 56 foot of detail work plus 3 cut lines. thats a good 2hrs of work and would add 100-150 on my pricing, not including paint. I wouldn't let this customer worry you about the price so much, some people can be really tight and will never understand how a room could cost more than $100 to paint. These are not the types you should be working for. Also you might want to work on your pitch to the homeowner because you might come off as inexperienced and they might think they can negotiate you down. Customers treat me this way often because of my age(24) but I just let them know that I run a clean, profitable, and productive company, if they would like to work with me then this is the price, I also let them know that I would love to do their job but at the same time there are plenty of people looking for a good painter. (meaning I'm not desparate).


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

3 reasons to supply the paint:

1. once you get used to a certain coating, you can predict how much to buy with amazing accuracy.

2. You will learn that all paints are not created equal and a few extra $$$ on a good paint will save many hours.

3. If you buy it from anywhere other than BLOWES and EL CHEAPO you will get a discount but are still able to charge full price so it will add to your bottom line.

oh yeah after you buy enough paint they start to give you some for free(occationally)


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## Pete's Painting (Mar 5, 2008)

Customers shouldn't have a problem with you buying the paint. Trust me, many will find a way to screw it up somehow. 
If you're just starting out and are having trouble estimating the cost of paint etc, maybe start by making your best guess, add some for breathing room (consider the extra part of a deposit)and tell the customer you will take any unused funds off the final bill until you get a grasp for it.


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## meo814 (Apr 28, 2007)

thank you all so much for your input..i am no longer going to worry about this customer and they can go get someone else to do it for less as i will not lower my price...:whistling2:


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