# Exterior prep.. is is scrape, spot bare wood with oil still the gold standard?



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Got an old house with a lot of alligatoring paint. I've already power-washed and about 20% more paint came off than the pics show.

The question - is scrape, spot prime all bare wood with a long oil then 2 coats finish still the gold standard.

I've been reading about the joys of Peel Stop Triple Thick. Can/should I put that stuff straight over bare wood and skip the oil?
If so is there a latex primer that should also be used? Is there a role for latex primer in any part of this job?

I have never used a latex primer anywhere on an exterior except for some crazy venture where the guys were spraying an elastomeric Latex on "EVERYTHING" before the elastomeric topcoat.

For what it's worth, I'm planning on using Duration White for the top coat
Thanks in Advance(If I were doing interior trim that would be a pun).


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

With white, I would probably stick with oil for the primer. i have done oil, then PeelBond on old homes like that as well. Oil stops the bleed, PeelBond for the build and filling abilities. 

MadDog/Dura-prime appears to be able to block tannin with 2 coats (it did work on a job I did with white), but I would test before assuming anything non-oil will stop bleeding. I know PeelBond does not stop tannins. I do not know about PeelStop.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

I would be comfortable using Mad Dog and two topcoats. TWO topcoats. 


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Let me rephrase: a FULL coat of Mad Dog (entire house). 


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

So with the Peel Stop it's the tannin bleeding through the white that may be the problem and not the adhesion to bare wood?
No problems with the wood rotting out with just Peel Stop then an acrylic topcoat?


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

804 Paint said:


> I would be comfortable using Mad Dog and two topcoats. TWO topcoats.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The upper section of the house was ground down to bare wood and finished properly in the past and has absolutely no peeling.
If I don't Mad Dog/Peel Stop that section(which is about 30% of the house) will I have sheen issues using Duration Satin?
Thanks again!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

In my opinion, there's no way you can warranty your work with the condition that the existing coating is in. No matter what kind of high build primers and treatments you use.

However, it's obvious the owner chose to settle for a quick fix in the past rather than perform the proper prep work needed. It could have been that the costs of removing the fractured lead paint down to the wood substrate was beyond their budget.

The gold standard would be to remove all existing paint and start over with a better system. But, if I had to provide something with such an anemic budget, it would be to: 

1. Power wash
2. Scrape off loose paint (no digging!)
3. Prime with oil base primer (Spray and back roll or brush. Nasty looking profile says it doesn't matter.)
4. Optional : Apply a high build waterborne treatment/primer (maybe cost prohibitive to the budget)
5. Two coats of finish with an exterior low sheen. (no question, two coats of finish. And at least the low sheen will help hide the irregular surface.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

For the absolute best system, that dead gray wood has to go too. If not you may be wasting your no matter what primer/paint system you use.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

That is a huge mess. Hand scrape, hand sand would barely scratch the surface of the problems there. 
Option 1 - Needs to be power sanded and full scope prep but that is 20 times the scope of work of just spot priming and painting. The wood is so decayed that new coatings could fail afterwards anyways. 
Option 2 - Coat it with BM fast dry oil prime or Zprime Plus,, then possibly peel bond and double coat paint. Spots will still fail as time goes on....

** I personally would avoid scraping, and sanding, or avoid the project altogether. **

You don't want to expose yourself and family to that dust so be careful, don't use drop clothes or they'll be forever spreading that crud into your vehicle, your home, and other jobs at the least. If your make dust, don't use your regular shop vac or it's gonna spew lead dust everywhere for a long time, use a lead filtering vac and power tools.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I wouldn't use duration over that either. Duration likes to grab old failing paint and make it peel again faster. Don't get me wrong it's a good product but I've encountered issues with it over these types of surfaces. I'd go with Resilience or SuperPaint on this one. 

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> For the absolute best system, that dead gray wood has to go too. If not you may be wasting your no matter what primer/paint system you use.



I put two coats of Mad Dog on a shed that had grey wood on it. In my opinion it should have never have been painted...When I was at the house three years later this past summer, it looked brand new...that is the paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I put two coats of Mad Dog on a shed that had grey wood on it. In my opinion it should have never have been painted...When I was at the house three years later this past summer, it looked brand new...that is the paint.


then i guess the Mad Dog will work then! I'm sure they'll help him re-scrape and paint it if their product does end up failing. Just like every other paint company.

Kind of like the motor oil companies that guarantee that if their oil fails they will replace it.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Ok, I am going to state that obvious. That house has lead paint all over it and really should not be power washed.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Ok, I am going to state that obvious. That house has lead paint all over it, and really should not be power washing.


That's a good point. But if no children occupy it, or visit it regularly, and there is no plans to sell it, do the RRP rules still apply?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Ok, I am going to state that obvious. That house has lead paint all over it and really should not be power washed.


well yeah! That should be obvious huh? Probably shouldn't be sanded without the proper sanding equipment either. Or respirators, etc.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> That's a good point. But if no children occupy it, or visit it regularly, and there is no plans to sell it, do the RRP rules still apply?


Yes. Any time a you are getting paid to do the work the rules apply. If the HO did the work themselves then the rules do not apply. Makes no sense to me, but thems is the rules.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Yes. Any time a you are getting paid to do the work the rules apply. If the HO did the work themselves then the rules do not apply. Makes no sense to me, but thems is the rules.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


But I thought the RRP criteria only applied when children are part of the equation. What if they're not and it's a rural area? In other words without the children can there be an exemption?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> But I thought the RRP criteria only applied when children are part of the equation. What if they're not and it's a rural area? In other words without the children can there be an exemption?


It applies for any residential job. :yes:

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

*Is it defined as any of the following?:*


Definition: Target Housing - is a house or apartment (including mobile homes) built before January 1, 1978 except for: 

1) 0-bedroom units (like dorm rooms or studio apartments) 
2) housing that is officially designated for the elderly or the handicapped 
3) housing that has been tested by a State Certified Lead Inspector and found to be free of lead-based paint. 
Definition: Child-Occupied Facility - is a building, or portion of a building, constructed prior to 1978, visited by the same child, 6 years of age or under, on at least 2 different days within any week, provided that each day's visit lasts at least 3 hours, the combined weekly visit lasts at least 6 hours, and the combined annual visits last at least 60 hours. Such facilities may include, but are not limited to, day-care centers, preschools and kindergarten classrooms. 

*NOTE:* _On August 26, 2009, EPA announced plans to, "expand lead safe work practices and other protective requirements for ... work involving lead paint to most buildings, including public and commercial structures, built before 1978."_


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

In other words, item 2 under "Target Housing" could exempt the building from RRP rules. Albeit, it'll need an "official" designation. Whatever that is.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Did I stump the panel? Times up! Close the web sites. You must respond.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm thinking if the hatchet murderer living next door doesn't drop a dime on ole' Lakesidex, it should be good to go. I mean, we're talking Amityville horror here. Look at that house!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Damn you Hootsuite! we're losing people here!


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I'm thinking if the hatchet murderer living next door doesn't drop a dime on ole' Lakesidex, it should be good to go. I mean, we're talking Amityville horror here. Look at that house!


Cannot say thay I have ever heard of exemptions. Although MA laws are stricter than federal laws.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Cannot say thay I have ever heard of exemptions. Although MA laws are stricter than federal laws.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


The ethical thing to do would be to contain and collect all the water, vacuum seal the house, yadda yadda. So you are right.

But if you ever want to watch a complete breakdown of ethics, watch the Netflix documentary called "The Seven Five" It's about NYPD corruption in the 80's to 90's. Very disturbing.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

There used to be an opt out clause, but that was taken away. The "child occupied facility" is for commercial stuff. There is not exclusions for a home. RRP applies.

According to my class this year, you do not need to collect your power washing water now. Just scrape first to remove loose paint, then wash and clean up chips or put down mulch, etc. I think each instructors take on this issue is different.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I wouldn't use duration over that either. Duration likes to grab old failing paint and make it peel again faster. Don't get me wrong it's a good product but I've encountered issues with it over these types of surfaces. I'd go with Resilience or SuperPaint on this one.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Yup. The tensile strength is too great on duration. Not to mention the expense of a product thats only as gpod as whats under it.. It will pull the remaining old paint off. Superpaint all day long. Heck, a100 would do the job....thats gonna keep peeling and checking unless it's stripped....we won't even mention the L word I guess. 
Upon further reading of all the posts apparently you guys have mentioned that already...and no there are no exemptions ca.

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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> That's a good point. But if no children occupy it, or visit it regularly, and there is no plans to sell it, do the RRP
> 
> Yup.
> 
> ...


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

CApainter said:


> In other words, item 2 under "Target Housing" could exempt the building from RRP rules. Albeit, it'll need an "official" designation. Whatever that is.


That should not be under the exemptions category considering elderly people are more susceptible to the harmful effects of lead than mid aged or healthy adults. 

The criteria needed to be deamed a child care facilty, covers the fact that it MUST be treated as a lead rrp job if the building is older than 78 regardless of any test, so no need to test I believe.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

I respect all the posts pointing out the lead issues with these older houses. There are a ton of these in rural New England.
At some point, the upper half of the front and back of the house was ground down to bare wood. I can still see the swirls. Must of been a snowstorm of lead. Scary.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Yup. The tensile strength is too great on duration. Not to mention the expense of a product thats only as gpod as whats under it.. It will pull the remaining old paint off. Superpaint all day long. Heck, a100 would do the job....thats gonna keep peeling and checking unless it's stripped....we won't even mention the L word I guess.
> Upon further reading of all the posts apparently you guys have mentioned that already...and no there are no exemptions ca.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


On a target house, disturbing less than six square feet of lead paint per interior room, and less than twenty square feet of exterior wall, consitutes an exemption, as I see it.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

CApainter said:


> On a target house, disturbing less than six square feet of lead paint per interior room, and less than twenty square feet of exterior wall, consitutes an exemption, as I see it.


Yes, you are correct.

However not many educated painters are going to grind on 15 to 18 square feet of wall and pretend there is no "problem ". Therefore it's good to get certified even if you don't plan on doing lead work. Good to get that knowledge for the sole reason to learn to not mess with the stuff. Or take precaution and at least use dispiable plastic, lead dust extractors, proper ppe stuff, and keep it off the tools and van and one's clothing.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ridesarize said:


> Yes, you are correct.
> 
> However not many educated painters are going to grind on 15 to 18 square feet of wall and pretend there is no "problem ". Therefore it's good to get certified even if you don't plan on doing lead work. Good to get that knowledge for the sole reason to learn to not mess with the stuff. Or take precaution and at least use dispiable plastic, lead dust extractors, proper ppe stuff, and keep it off the tools and van and one's clothing.


And even with those exemptions, I would never suggest using anything other than the proper PPE and containment methods. Including proper disposal.

But the point is, there are exemptions to the RRP rules.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

OSHA has had requirements for handling lead paint long before the RRP regulations were established. But the culture of the trades industry ignored the hazards. Which ultimately lead to the RRP regulations. The RRP likely would have never been born had reckless workers, apathetic employers, and cheap owners not allowed it to happen. Particularly in the painting industry where costs are always questioned, and a lack of oversite enables a wide range of affordable options.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It is not just grinding. It is disturbing. Which means scraping, power washing loose paint off, etc. not just sanding.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Ok, I am going to state that obvious. That house has lead paint all over it and really should not be power washed.


Pete - It's almost summer. Your picture makes me feel hotter than I already am!


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## allaboutfun (Apr 2, 2015)

Kind of behind the 8 ball already. No mention of giving the owner the Renovate Right book and blowing Lead paint chips everywhere can put you in a bad position. Might want to mix in an RRP class. 
I wouldn't over think materials. That project will have paint coming off no matter what you use. Spot prime and paint with a back brush or roll is the best you can do. We've painted thousands of LBP houses here and most in this condition need attention within 5 years - some sooner. 

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

804 Paint said:


> Pete - It's almost summer. Your picture makes me feel hotter than I already am!


I have been using the same picture for four years and have no desire to put in the effort to change it. We had a mini heat wave in MA the past few days. Downed a lot of H2O.

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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> And even with those exemptions, I would never suggest using anything other than the proper PPE and containment methods. Including proper disposal.
> 
> But the point is, there are exemptions to the RRP rules.


Those aren't exemptions. It's part of the rrp parameters. Outside of those parameters the rule applies across the board.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Those aren't exemptions. It's part of the rrp parameters. Outside of those parameters the rule applies across the board.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Anything outside of a parameter is an exemption. In this case, Joe Blow, without a certi, can paint that residential as long as he doesn't disturb six square feet of each interior room, and twenty square feet of the exterior. And as long as he is using safe practices defined by OSHA.

As I understand it, anyone without a certi can paint a leaded pre 78' home for compensation as long as the paint is not disturbed. I believe it's called encapsulation. Applying paint over a lead surface is not considered disturbing it. I read that in the RRP.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Some Peel-away would work wonders on that house Btw.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

allaboutfun said:


> Kind of behind the 8 ball already. No mention of giving the owner the Renovate Right book and blowing Lead paint chips everywhere can put you in a bad position. Might want to mix in an RRP class.
> I wouldn't over think materials. That project will have paint coming off no matter what you use. Spot prime and paint with a back brush or roll is the best you can do. We've painted thousands of LBP houses here and most in this condition need attention within 5 years - some sooner.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


 I was lead certified when I was doing some work for "Smart Permanent Coating System" - Basically a 30 mil elostomeric prime and top-coat on everything.

Owner is also completely aware of the situation.

I was thinking Duration because I believe it will hold up well on the 40% of the wood that is in very good condition. After scraping, there should be even less "bad paint" that may get pulled off. And if the duration grabs and pulls off the rest of the bad paint then that may be a good thing in the long run.

I need enough sheen in the paint so that the house will self clean a little with the rain and keep the mildew at bay. I see Duration doesn't offer low-luster but the satin is nice. Mix the flat with the satin maybe?

I do want the paint job to last as long as possible on the new clap and the ground areas of the house that are in very good condition.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Lakesidex said:


> Got an old house with a lot of alligatoring paint. I've already power-washed and about 20% more paint came off than the pics show.
> 
> The question - is scrape, spot prime all bare wood with a long oil then 2 coats finish still the gold standard.
> 
> ...


Safest thing to do would be to strap it out and put up new prepainted clapboard siding..


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Anything outside of a parameter is an exemption. In this case, Joe Blow, without a certi, can paint that residential as long as he doesn't disturb six square feet of each interior room, and twenty square feet of the exterior. And as long as he is using safe practices defined by OSHA.
> 
> As I understand it, anyone without a certi can paint a leaded pre 78' home for compensation as long as the paint is not disturbed. I believe it's called encapsulation. Applying paint over a lead surface is not considered disturbing it. I read that in the RRP.


Sure, if all the painter does is clean and paint without any prep at all (except for cleaning). Seems it would be wiser to pay to have the work done properly...not scraping and sanding will just cause more problems in the future.

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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Anything outside of a parameter is an exemption. In this case, Joe Blow, without a certi, can paint that residential as long as he doesn't disturb six square feet of each interior room, and twenty square feet of the exterior. And as long as he is using safe practices defined by OSHA.
> 
> As I understand it, anyone without a certi can paint a leaded pre 78' home for compensation as long as the paint is not disturbed. I believe it's called encapsulation. Applying paint over a lead surface is not considered disturbing it. I read that in the RRP.


The problems arise when Joe blow is oblivious to the rep rules because s/he isn't certified, never took the clasd, and never read the literature or did any homework. They take on a job and do t even consider it as a factor. They just start pressure watching and scraping and let it all fall. Maybe grab a rigid if it's real bad. All while little 5 yr old Bobby plays happily on the swing set a few feet away, and walks through the mess to get a cookie from the kitchen. Then the guy moves onto the next job still ignorant (or out right defiant) of the concerns.

And I guess I'm misunderstanding the context of the word "exemption" . My thoughts say it's just not applicable. 

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> then i guess the Mad Dog will work then! I'm sure they'll help him re-scrape and paint it if their product does end up failing. Just like every other paint company.
> 
> Kind of like the motor oil companies that guarantee that if their oil fails they will replace it.


Not saying that removing the grey wood is not the best practice, just that Mad Dog is a darn good product. Has become my go to primer when the wood is in rough shape and using chemicles is not an option due to not being able to power was becuse of lead paint.

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> But I thought the RRP criteria only applied when children are part of the equation. What if they're not and it's a rural area? In other words without the children can there be an exemption?


I was speaking to a HO that owns a few rentals and took a RRP class. The instuctor of the class told the students that a rental owner was sued by the parents of the grandchildren of his tenants. The kids had lead poisioning and had visited the grandparents. The apartment had lead in it. The house that they lived in may have also had lead, but legally they could not check the parents house.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Sure, if all the painter does is clean and paint without any prep at all (except for cleaning). Seems it would be wiser to pay to have the work done properly...not scraping and sanding will just cause more problems in the future.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Well, you get what you pay for. And according to those photos posted by the OP, no one was ever interested in best practices or the future. And frankly, a full coat of oil base primer over dirt, dust, and debris, would achieve the same results as the prior paint job. 

And as long as there is no judicial over site in terms of painting materials and application processes, just about anything is open to interpretation of what a painting finished product is. Despite common sense. That's the beauty of this industry. And because painting is the most popular trade for breeding hacks, the opportunity for even the most mediocre, albeit compliant, painter can thrive and shine. In other words, it really doesn't take much to be a pro in this biz.:wink:



lilpaintchic said:


> The problems arise when Joe blow is oblivious to the rep rules because s/he isn't certified, never took the clasd, and never read the literature or did any homework. They take on a job and do t even consider it as a factor. They just start pressure watching and scraping and let it all fall. Maybe grab a rigid if it's real bad. All while little 5 yr old Bobby plays happily on the swing set a few feet away, and walks through the mess to get a cookie from the kitchen. Then the guy moves onto the next job still ignorant (or out right defiant) of the concerns.
> 
> *And I guess I'm misunderstanding the context of the word "exemption" . My thoughts say it's just not applicable*.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


You need to report that to the EPA. They use it like tabasco sauce on scrambled eggs all throughout their mumbo jumbo.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

So is the mad Dog primer I want the Dura-Prime?
There seems to be a lot of similar products in the Mad Dog line:
Dura-Build
dura-Last
Dura-prime

Want to try a Mad Dog product but want to choose the right one.
I figure spot prime the bare wood with Dura-Prime, then a full coat on all sections that are peeling.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lakesidex said:


> So is the mad Dog primer I want the Dura-Prime?
> There seems to be a lot of similar products in the Mad Dog line:
> Dura-Build
> dura-Last
> ...


I'd be inclined to fully prime that siding with and oil based product, then top coat with an acrylic low sheen.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I'd be inclined to fully prime that siding with and oil based product, then top coat with an acrylic low sheen.


Damn.. still old school. Wanted to try something new and different....and better.:glasses:


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Lakesidex said:


> Damn.. still old school. Wanted to try something new and different....and better.:glasses:




If you want think outside the box, you might try Palk Armor. That's my made up name for smearing acrylic caulking and paint on old peeling lead. 

Squirt a bunch of caulk across the surface, knife it down somewhat, and while it's still wet brush or roll your acrylic primer or paint on as well. 

I know that sounds like hackery of the first order, but I've done it for years on jobs with massive lead peeling where complete removal wasn't an option. And it works. Works great actually. 


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> If you want think outside the box, you might try Palk Armor. That's my made up name for smearing acrylic caulking and paint on old peeling lead.
> 
> Squirt a bunch of caulk across the surface, knife it down somewhat, and while it's still wet brush or roll your acrylic primer or paint on as well.
> 
> ...


It's not so unusual. Kelly Moore used to have a brush and knife grade elastomeric/caulk that came in gallon containers in either smooth or textured grades. I've used the smooth grade over mangled facia boards with good results.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> So is the mad Dog primer I want the Dura-Prime?
> There seems to be a lot of similar products in the Mad Dog line:
> Dura-Build
> dura-Last
> ...


Dura-prime 
It is pricey though 
Peelbond is less so


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PRC said:


> Dura-prime
> It is pricey though
> Peelbond is less so


I love Mad Dog's TDS's. They read like one those bubble gum packets from the 70's. I think they were called WACKIE PACKS

I ought to post their deck primer to the deck thread. https://maddogprimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Specifications-Deck-Fix-2016.pdf


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I love Mad Dog's TDS's. They read like one those bubble gum packets from the 70's. I think they were called WACKIE PACKS
> 
> I ought to post their deck primer to the deck thread. https://maddogprimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Specifications-Deck-Fix-2016.pdf


I have yet to try the deck fix. I think Tonyg gave it a good review though.

The Dura-Prime and Dura-seal have performed great for us. We have painted a lot of old peelers with their products and have excellent results and longevity across the board.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Filled out some contact information on the Mad Dog website and got a phone call from the guy who I think created the Mad Dog primers, Steve I think it was. I know he is legit because he said he would send me a couple hats. Spoke to him for about a half hour and he was great.Talked me through a couple painting scenarios. 

A lot of my questions were about the different flavors of Mad Dog primers to choose from. Most of the answers were common sense.

For my job, Steve first recommended the Dura-Last primer because it is more cost efficient than the Dura-Prime and comes in white. The Dura-Last does not stop tannin or rust.The Dura-Prime's main benefit is that it helps lock in the tannin and rust. Tinting the Dura-Prime reduces its ability to block stains.

But tanins are a slight issue with this job, so Dura-Prime would be the right choice. So my procedure would be to spot prime all bare wood with Dura-Prime, then a full coat of Dura-Prime on everything. 

If I want to "showcase" an area, like the clap around the front door I could brush on some Dura-Build, which is their high build, over the Dura-Prime, to help fill and even out the boards.

Quick hits: 
Was told not to spot-prime with oil and then top coat with Mad Dog. Didn't like the primer over primer thing.

When paint finally fails, it will fail like normal paint(whatever that means).

Liked the BM Moorglo as a top coat but any quality paint was ok.

1 finish coat of paint was possible.

Pro's for the Mad Dog approach were 20% reduced prep time and a much longer lasting paint job.

Quick summary: 
Use Dura-Last for a more economical product were rust and tannin are not an issue. Use Dura-Prime where it is. Use Dura-Build to even out extremely cracked and peeling paint. Brush heavy where needed.

I'm not sold at this point but am very interested. Maybe a spot prime with straight Dura-Prime un-tinted, a full coat of Dura-Prime tinted white, and 1 finish coat is where it's at.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

So the duraprime is an oil based primer I assume? Why not just do One whole coat of primer on everything? Why spot prime and then re coat with the same procuct? Also, I wouldn't think there would be many tannins left in wood that old.. Definitely better for rusty nails etc. All the same they should just cover it up with new siding. Sounds like a nightmare job. Good luck.!:vs_whistle:


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> So the duraprime is an oil based primer I assume? Why not just do One whole coat of primer on everything? Why spot prime and then re coat with the same procuct? Also, I wouldn't think there would be many tannins left in wood that old.. Definitely better for rusty nails etc. All the same they should just cover it up with new siding. Sounds like a nightmare job. Good luck.!:vs_whistle:


Dura prime is not oil based.

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Lakesidex said:


> Filled out some contact information on the Mad Dog website and got a phone call from the guy who I think created the Mad Dog primers, Steve I think it was. I know he is legit because he said he would send me a couple hats. Spoke to him for about a half hour and he was great.Talked me through a couple painting scenarios.
> 
> A lot of my questions were about the different flavors of Mad Dog primers to choose from. Most of the answers were common sense.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info. I have used Dura Prime many times with very good results, but based on the info that you gave I decided to go with Dura last on the job I am doing now. I had to order it online. No one around me carries it, nor did my store's supplier have it in stock.

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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Thanks for all the info. I have used Dura Prime many times with very good results, but based on the info that you gave I decided to go with Dura last on the job I am doing now. I had to order it online. No one around me carries it, nor did my store's supplier have it in stock.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Cool. Glad I could add to the conversation, even if a bit long-winded.

Let us know about the Dura-Last when you get a chance!


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Using it now. Love it. These guys make awesome products. I have a gallon of the crack fix I am waiting to use on my old horse hair ceiling. My only problem is convincing my guy to trust the primer....he thinnks he needs to remove all of the old paint no matter what. But after I convinced him that he does not, and he used the primer he was impressed. He is old school and has trouble trying new things. It is kinda strange that he acted this way since we used the Dura Prime on a house that was in much worse shape...the home owners did the scraping...and that job came out really good.

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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Old painters can be hardheaded. At least that's what I've heard.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> Old painters can be hardheaded. At least that's what I've heard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was talking to the guys at my paint store awhile back about that subject and they told me they have painters that refuse to use any thing but the old BM Regal. Had painters across the street from use last summer that were amazed by our ladder levelers. They were struggling to get their ladder level with shingles. 
I am constantly looking for, and trying, new things to make my job easier.

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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I still don't own any ladder leveler. But at this point, I'm hoping my days of using extension ladders are few and far in between.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

slinger58;1428634[COLOR=red said:


> ]I still don't own any ladder leveler.[/COLOR] But at this point, I'm hoping my days of using extension ladders are few and far in between.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
I don't either


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

chrisn said:


> I don't either


Ditto. Just keep a few sticks of scrap 2X12 in the van for when I need them. Why are we painters such cheapskates? lain:

Walked by another painter's van the other day and rather than having the yellow rubber ladder mitts, he had old towels wrapped around the tops of his extension ladders. The bumpers are $12.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Necro post just to add a couple pics of the finished house.

2 full coats of Mad Dog primer 2 full coats BM Soft Gloss.

She shines like a beacon in the winter sun.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I've never heard of Mad dog primer. Is it $85 USD per gallon?

Where can it be purchased in Canada? I like to use 'XIM Peel Bond' after spot priming with oil primer. I don't trust it on raw wood.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Mr Smith said:


> I've never heard of Mad dog primer. Is it $85 USD per gallon?
> 
> Where can it be purchased in Canada? I like to use 'XIM Peel Bond' after spot priming with oil primer. I don't trust it on raw wood.


Don't know about Canada.

https://maddogprimer.com/our-products/

Their Dura Prime is their most expensive primer but the only difference between the Dura Prime and Dura Last is that Dura Prime has stain killing properties.

Dura Last is 20-25 dollars cheaper.

I was also told never to put Dura-Prime directly over a primer, that it would peel. I think the Mad dog products need some kind of film to grab onto. I did use it over bare wood because I knew the owner and he was ok with it and it's spec'd to use directly over bare wood. Supposedly works very well over bare plywood or T-111.

That Mad dog primer is like an elastomeric puzzle glue. Paint it within a couple days because it stays wet like fly paper and will get decorated like a Christmas Tree on a real windy day.

People use it around here to encapsulate lead paint on old exteriors.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Another vote for mad dog here. Worth it's weight in gold. You MUST do two coats though. Or spot finish if the customer is only paying for one coat.

I think their deck prime is even more expensive than dura prime.

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## Ccmpainting (Nov 10, 2020)

Lakesidex said:


> Got an old house with a lot of alligatoring paint. I've already power-washed and about 20% more paint came off than the pics show.
> 
> The question - is scrape, spot prime all bare wood with a long oil then 2 coats finish still the gold standard.
> 
> ...


Please don't prime areas that aren't peeling! Why fix what isn't broke? Use Coverstain on after its scrapped down tight. Let it dry for.at least 24 hours and paint it. Beed doing this for 24 years in the north east and it works! I only do it the right way.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ccmpainting said:


> Please don't prime areas that aren't peeling! Why fix what isn't broke? Use Coverstain on after its scrapped down tight. Let it dry for.at least 24 hours and paint it. Beed doing this for 24 years in the north east and it works! I only do it the right way.


You wanna stop with the necroposting, FFS????


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

I have been doing outside houses for 37 years, starting with my Grandfather from 1945. 

Lots of bad information in this thread. Firstly, never paint a house without the most aggressive grinder you can get your hands on. This is the secret to a 30 year job on old homes painted 35 times and peeling. Think 24 grit, not 36, and lots of speed, above 10 K. Vacuum sand or wet sand. First you need to triple blast. So, think 8 hours of ground taping to collect chips up to 20 feet from house, 20 hours blasting, 20 hours planing and smoothing the surface, maybe 4 hours or less of scraping, then another 20 hours of bare wood priming, and about 20 in caulking, dryrot fill, chip shop vac.

As far as oil v. Self priming, v. Water based. In the 80s, oil won for the first 7 years. Water borne primers actually shortened life. Definitely stay away from short oils and non breathing primers. By 2000, I realized thicker hybrid, oil + breathing water borne, had the best 14 to 17 year life, while doing an excellent job with cedar bleed. I have been trying to get away from oil hybrid in the last 4 years, but, the adhesion and stain blocking is not as good. 

I have not seen any failures with duration on my old houses. On the contrary, they are holding up 20 years better than the 90s paint. Although, low temp Glidden professional grade in the 90s had excellent fade and mildew resistance... However, I am seeing superpaint and resilience bubbles in the hot sun that pop up and lay back down in the cold. The bubbles do not care what surface it is over. Duration is doing this too in satin. It is likely caused by the crosslinking in the satin of the modern paint. However, I ran into this in 1988 with super paint. The solution is to use flat. Actually, flat paints have always been several times more peel resistant than satin or gloss, when it comes to vapor and expansion and contraction. 

I have tried peel away and had reps try to demo it. Never once could it touch the old 1920s oil base coat. Plus it is like 10 dollars a square foot, just for the product. I stay away from chemicals because they are generally ineffective and there are much cheaper methods. 

Infrared and heat guns suck too, because they loose too much energy and a house hold outlet does not have enough watts to remove paint by heat in any time efficient manner to strip more than a few square feet. Plus, if you strip old tight paint you need 40,000 lb of force to cut the old tight oil bonds in 1 square foot of base paint. Plus, you got an old 100 year old house that has been beaten for other paint preps and weathered. Once you strip everything off, some of the insane customers will want auto body work, like in the inside, with no end and no payment. This is against their own best interest. All they will get is a failed attempt to recreate aluminum siding and lower the charm and resale value. Old tight paint that cannot be removed without heat is tight enough to last another 30 to 100 years. 

It has been measured by engineers that if you vent the bottom and top between all of the studs, that it can double the life of any system. So, a crappy 7 year job, might get 14. A 14 year job, get 28 years. Obviously, dirt, fade, leaks, areas that are in direct contact with the snow, bad gutters, will need ongoing touchup. Probably south side refresher thin coats every decade. 7 years for people who have lots of money, yet are mindful of overkill. 

There is only one breathable oil, which can breath about 1/3 of a waterbased. This is why it is wise to not go crazy with oil primers on exterior siding. I used oil primers from 1987 to 2000. By 2000, I could see that the hybrid was winning over the oils. By 1990 I realized that the waterborne primers of the time failed sooner than no priming, because they needed to dry too quickly in order to block the staining. 

In the 90s people experimented and realized certain thick elastomerics primed old houses really well. This is the idea of the Duration, permalast resin. However, add some eb on the first coat to help the cedar bleeding. Duration will breath better than the oil, but offer the elastomeric. 

However, I have not vetted peel bond as a duration alternative to an undercoater for other thinner paints. Probably, is expensive as heck for an entire house, as it is thick and will get you 50 to 150 sq foot, at best, yet not pigment for better coverage of the top coat. 

Mas dog looks interesting. 

Sw multi purpose primer is thin, extremely messy, as one bent hair on the brush would throw paint 20 feet.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Is it even worth the cost, at that point? You can't blast with anything in public, anymore. At least not here in Canada. It would be cheaper to get new siding, of any type, than to set up for a 30 year paint job.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

Ccmpainting said:


> Please don't prime areas that aren't peeling! Why fix what isn't broke? Use Coverstain on after its scrapped down tight. Let it dry for.at least 24 hours and paint it. Beed doing this for 24 years in the north east and it works! I only do it the right way.


Correct. 

The only exception is when the primer is the exact color of the topcoat, half the price, and it is a color change. Priming old paint then saves money and is worth a little extra time. Of course, labor intensive areas like windows, it is better to just 3 top coat if necessary, because you are not saving enough money on the paint. 3 coats of the same product is quicker than a primer and 2 coats. In many ways better. However, the insane prices of paint, where large house can now cost $3500, might make it necessary to look for tricks to cut down material price and still use the insanely expensive, self priming top coat.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I would typically just gloss over a post like this, even if there was so much of it that I didn't agree with, but when you preface with "_Lots of bad information in this thread_", and then contribute to providing bad information, I gotta call you out on it. 

_"Firstly, never paint a house without the most aggressive grinder you can get your hands on. This is the secret to a 30 year job on old homes painted 35 times and peeling. Think 24 grit, not 36, and lots of speed, above 10 K." _
-High speed grinders can compromise old coatings from the heat generated while using them. This is easily shown when returning next day after feather-sanding an old home with high-speed grinders in the form of the feathered edge lifting from the substrate. This was something an old Mod here, (Gough), brought to my attention more than a decade ago, and it probably took me a few years to fully believe him. The high speeds from grinders creates tremendous heat, so that area which you're feather sanding is also being compromised while doing so. 

_"First you need to triple blast."
-When you refer to "blasting", I hope you're talking about anything other than "water-blasting", but since you did not specify and you consider yourself an authority on this subject, perhaps you could clarify for the rest of us._

"_By 2000, I realized thicker hybrid, oil + breathing water borne, had the best 14 to 17 year life, while doing an excellent job with cedar bleed."
-What waterborne hybrid primer were you using in 2000 that did an excellent job with cedar bleed? How come you didn't share it with the rest of the world?_

_"The bubbles do not care what surface it is over. Duration is doing this too in satin. It is likely caused by the crosslinking in the satin of the modern paint."_
_-Bubbles in the finish isn't because of some phantom cross-linker. Guess again.

"The solution is to use flat. Actually, flat paints have always been several times more peel resistant than satin or gloss"
-Flat paints aren't several times more peel resistant than satins. If anything, the opposite would be true.

"if you strip old tight paint you need 40,000 lb of force to cut the old tight oil bonds in 1 square foot of base paint"_
_-Where did this statistic come from?_

_"It has been measured by engineers that if you vent the bottom and top between all of the studs, that it can double the life of any system."_
_-Where did this statistic come from?_

_"There is only one breathable oil, which can breath about 1/3 of a waterbased "_
_-Which one might that be?

"In the 90s people experimented and realized certain thick elastomerics primed old houses really well." 
-In the 90's many painters used elastomeric on old wood homes as a primer, simply due to the fact that it hid all the sins of those older homes so well. The problems arose when any water got behind it, and water almost always got behind it. Due to the thickness of elastomeric, coupled with the low permeablility, the water that got behind it stayed behind it, leading to premature rot as well as bubbles the size of basketballs. Elastomerics are a very poor choice when priming old homes. _

I'd strongly recommend when you give a suggestion, that you not qualify it as fact or the ONLY way. There's countless ways to paint a house while still achieving a favorable outcome. If your way works for you great. My way works for me too, despite it being very different from your way.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

degarb said:


> Correct.
> 
> The only exception is when the primer is the exact color of the topcoat, half the price, and it is a color change.


Actually, incorrect. What if the surface was oxidized? What if you were switching solvents and needed a tie coat? What if you were going from flat to gloss and needed excellent holdout? What if you were going from gloss to flat and needed adhesion promotion? 

As stated in my previous post, there's lots of ways to get to the finish line.


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