# Knotholes



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Need to fill the knot holes and prime/paint this, looking for some input.
What would you use?
Thanks!


----------



## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

I "may" personally use ready patch and BIN (shellac)

I say 'may' because I'm assuming the holes arent huge, but the knots must be BINNED to be sure they don't bleed if there is any part of the knot left even if you can't see it


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*Got the answer on this one*

I asked the same question a few months ago. I had a few e-mails back and forth with a forum member here who does restoration work in Canada.

Now listen up, I tried the following for outside Pine knots.

1) Amber Shellac--Zinsser

2) Cover Stain--Zinseer

3) Tite Bond III Brown Carpenter's Glue--that's right glue

I tested areas with each product. As my Canadian contact said, the exterior brown carpenter's glue sealed the knots efficiently without bleed through. I applied one medium coat of Cabot's Provt Exterior Latex Stain over the primed test areas.

Results: Cover Stain bled through and was unacceptable

Amber Shellac--straight out of the can-- slight bleed

Tite-Bond--Best coverage, no bleed through

As explained to me--the glue will expand and contract with weather conditions. Shellac and other materials are more brittle, thus they will crack rather than give allowing the tannins to seep through the primer.

BTW--The glue goes on with a throw away 1 inch. Spreads in a similar way to any primer. Do not cut. Hope this helps.

I am doing a large barn restoration job this year and this tip really will make my life easier. First, I'll hand prime with the glue--then finish up with two coats ProVT via spray.

I did not use the BIN because I was lazy and figured the Amber Shellac should do pretty much the same thing. I use BIN for other purposes, and it might be fine. But, I think you will be more pleased with the lasting result of the brown glue.

JTP


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

RC Painting said:


> Need to fill the knot holes and prime/paint this, looking for some input.
> What would you use?
> Thanks!


Rich


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Dang, my neck is hurting just looking at that
Are all those "dings" actually knot holes that need to be filled?
Like with wood filler?
Ouch


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Rich


You would fill the knotholes with Rich?


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Lol...


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Well, looking at that pic and my neck is already hurting
I wouldn't do it myself, I'd call Rich

Get a good price to sub it out, add a little for myself, then call Rich and see if he'll do it



> Need to fill the knot holes and prime/paint this...
> What would you use?


Rich


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Oh ok now I am with ya! 
Message to builders and carpenters: 
Buy a better grade of wood, it will cost you less than what you are about to pay a painter to make that mess look good. Poplar is painter friendly.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

How does one even quote a job like that? I'd tell 'em it's by the hour, and I don't care how long the project lasts.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks for the responses, yeah I need to fill the holes. When we met at the house for the bid, it wasn't up yet. HO picked wood, said there would be a few holes to fill The house is a new 6,000 sq ft farmhouse, lots of work.
Here is another pic.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its a bad scene. Everything about that deal is wrong. Bad looking wood. Should have been installed with the BIN work done and preprimed for two obvious reasons. The painter could do that alot more efficiently and ergonomically on sawhorses. And being tongue and groove, as the wood expands and contracts there is the risk of seeing where the painter couldnt get. Ceilings like that are nutbusters. I'd budget in several trips to the chiropractor.


----------



## Z paint (Jan 16, 2008)

bin shellac and lay it on heavy because with that many knots i see flashing in the future...i would try to convince them it would look bad painted no matter what and have u seal it..lol


----------



## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

John would use me....and I'd do it too! I like this kind of stuff. 

I've done the exterior underside of a porch where the knots needed 4+ coats (we finally got so sick of doing them by hand, we got rattle cans to finish)
....and some of them still bled

you are definitely in for a 'fun' time...like others said, bid well-preferably by the hour


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Its a bad scene. Everything about that deal is wrong. Bad looking wood. Should have been installed with the BIN work done and preprimed for two obvious reasons. The painter could do that alot more efficiently and ergonomically on sawhorses. And being tongue and groove, as the wood expands and contracts there is the risk of seeing where the painter couldnt get. Ceilings like that are nutbusters. I'd budget in several trips to the chiropractor.


Ayep! 

"Z paint	bin shellac and lay it on heavy because with that many knots i see flashing in the future...i would try to convince them it would look bad painted no matter what and have u seal it..lol"

tried

"Rich	John would use me....and I'd do it too! I like this kind of stuff. 
Like a working vacation in Utah?"

Thanks guys, It's going to be a lot of work for me and my guys. The HO is very nice and specific about what she wants and willing to pay for it.
I am still debating on what to fill the holes with. She wants a smooth look.
Looks like I have to learn how to do multiple quotes!


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

ok triple post!


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

oops, double post


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

I see now
This homeowner made a few big big mistakes
(at least I can't for the life of me think of why they did them on purpose)

They went with the cheaper wood (lower grade, more knots and holes) thinking they'd save money because it was "...just being painted anyway"
This is not true, as the labor and product to properly paint this is way more than if it were "clear" wood

They installed it before having it shellacked, filled, primed, and first coated, thus adding even more labor to the bill...lots more labor...and PITA labor too

That being said, I'd fill it, sand it, BIN it, re-fill it (the spots that need it), prime it, paint it
Obviously it's not going to be as easy as that sentence makes it sound

The fill and sand is going to be tough, being upside down and all
As much as I like Elmer wood filler, it will sag horribly when up-side down
I'd try Minwax Wood Filler, that tends to cling better
Works well in odd upside down spots where Elmer's sags
But I've never had to use so much upside before
Might want to try a few spots first just to make sure
You just don't want t e using a two-part epoxy on this thing if you don;t have to (time consuming and over-kill for the non-structural fill job)

The re-fill after the BIN, I'm just assuming it will need some to be nice and flat
Depending on how it comes out, spackle or joint compound _may_ be an option
Maybe you won't need this, but I'd plan for it in the bid/time estimate anyway


----------



## dincao (Oct 25, 2007)

no matter what u do it will not look good being filled in w/ wood putty or anything else you might try....The not holes are close to the tounge and grooves and it is my experience that no matter how hard you try it never looks right....what cant you ask them to just paint it without filling in holes considering it is a farmhouse....im sorry that forget that she said ahe wanted it smooth but no matter it will look like crap!!! what sheen level does she want?? If shes going w/ anything other then flat you really have problems!!!


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Oh by the way, is that sombitch blind nailed or do you get to fill face nails too? :thumbdown:


----------



## T200 (Nov 11, 2007)

Do they have insurance?

If so, is there a water source above that you could leave "accidentally" running for a few days?


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

dincao said:


> ...it will not look good being filled in w/ wood putty or anything else you might try....The not holes are close to the tounge and grooves and it is my experience that no matter how hard you try it never looks right...


It would be tough that's for sure
I think it's possible....but then most anything is possible
It would just take a huge amount of time and effort (= money) for it to look good

I would not be surprised if the total bill for putting lipstick on this pig was just about the same as the bill to re-do it with the proper grade wood and simply prime/paint-ing that
Actually, I would not be surprised if it were more


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slickshift said:


> It would be tough that's for sure
> I think it's possible....but then most anything is possible
> It would just take a huge amount of time and effort (= money) for it to look good
> 
> ...


Absotutely. We've been down that road so many times. It seems there is not enough we can do to educate those who install such materials. There is a prevailing mindset out there that "the painters will take care of it". Then in the end guess who looks ridiculously expensive?


----------



## Ball's (Jan 15, 2008)

Good Luck, that is way more work than I would want to do. I agree, I don't know if you can ever get that to look right. Make sure you put in your contract that if it bleeds through in the future after expansion and what-not that it will be an extra charge to fix it.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks for all the help!
The HO ordered clear pine, they were out so she got knotty pine 
It is face nailed every 16 inches, carpenter did not sand edges!
We are going to discuss this more before proceeding.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

:sneaky2: When they are not looking, throw up some pergo flooring.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RC Painting said:


> Thanks for all the help!
> The HO ordered clear pine, they were out so she got knotty pine
> It is face nailed every 16 inches, carpenter did not sand edges!
> We are going to discuss this more before proceeding.


Throw a couple of coats of poly on and call it a day, errr, call it rustic.


----------



## Housepainter (Jan 6, 2008)

I wish you the best on the project! 

Make sure you run your prep rates up or maybe just charge $XXXX. per knothole ..:yes:


----------



## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

...uh, yeah..."rustic" has been uber-hot lately
I've been doing a lot of rustic
My clients are digging the rustic


(now you can tell them you heard rustic is a hot trend lately)


----------



## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

Knotty pine look great with clear, especially in log home.

For future reference, you might want to let the customer know that there are other grades of pine. If you can't get or afford clear (no knots), then go to #1, #2 etc. These grades have some knots, but not nearly as many as knotty pine. And are generally less expensive than clear or knotty. Naughty pine at times like this.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

We finished, the HO loved it! Lots of work, worth the effort.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

A few more


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Nice job RC, how long did the job take and what method did you use?


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

2 more,


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks, on the T&G ceiling, patch and prep, spray SW shellac primer, then a Devoe high hide primer, patch and sand, more high hide primer, SW finish paint.
Took 9 days, me and 2 helpers. 5,000 sq feet living, 2,000 sq garage. 20 degree weather, lots of snow. 
HO was pretty involved and great to work with. 
Lot of MDF trim, turned out like glass.
Here in Utah, having a 2 year food supply is a big thing. My helper spent a full day caulking the 20 by 10 pantry with angled shelves!


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Here is a before


----------



## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Sounds like someone chose the wrong product for that lid, if they now want to patch and fill...

I'd do it, but they better have DEEEP pockets!

Gonna take every type of filler from bondo to zar!


----------



## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

Like he said


----------



## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

JTP glad you took my advice...not sure way more people can not get their head around using glue. I will bet any money that six months from now that the knots will be burning through on that ceiling.


----------

