# Stained Cedar, Prime?



## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

Still on the brick and cedar frame house.

The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.

The Contractor agreed, but has since amended the contract to just scraping except for the dormers and rails on the deck, those are going to bare wood using stripper.

Since working on it, I've determined that the original job was fine and all the failure looks natural to me. I didn't ask how long ago it was done but it's just the same as any typical cedar needing stain. 

Whats the school of thought on priming cedar before stain? 

Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you're going to prime, you might as well use paint. I don't think the HO understands the properties of cedar or stain.

Cedar needs to breathe. Stains soak into the pores and hairs, it doesn't fill and seal, like paint does. Tanin or other chemicals can leach out past stain without removing it. Whereas, paint will probably peel. I'm suspecting that this house was painted rather than stained. What we're scraping off is one layer and it's too thick to be stain IMO. I could be wrong.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Joewho said:


> Still on the brick and cedar frame house.
> 
> The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.
> 
> ...


I never heard of "priming" before staining. but I have heard of conditioning the wood before staining which we always do prior to staining. This gives better control of your stain and reduces the blotches. Is the stain peeling or the clear coat peeling?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I always use a basecoat on new/untreated/bare timber that's for staining. That's a uk product but I guess you have a similar material over there...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

paint companies recommend priming before staining to lock in the tannins if you are using a real light light color. So I have gotten into the habit of priming even before staining - I assume you mean oil based products? IF latex - heck no brainer, always prime - latex stain is still paint imo.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

We prime cedar before applying Cabot's ProVT, also due to the tannins... (spot prime scraped areas and full prime on replacement boards)


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

So Joe your back in Chicago? Maybe we can hook up for coffee and talk shop...


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Cobot ProVT requires priming of bare wood before solid stain. If the coating is failing then just scraping the affected areas and recoating just means that the other areas are going to fail under the new coat eventually. Make sure you are covered from any liability! This is one I would be careful getting in to.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Joewho said:


> The HO told the contractor that the stain (paint?) is peeling even though it was just done. Contractor calls in a Cabots rep. He determines that the original job wasn't done properly. Suggests complete strip and prime before using Cabots stain. It's white so I can't tell how old it is by the fading.
> 
> .


I'd be wary of the Cabot rep telling you that the original job was done wrong, he is getting out of any liability.. Joe if the job is in the Chicago area, the Cabot Rep might be who I think it is (I won't name names) but hes a snake oil salesman reminds me of a used car salesmen 

Do you what product is one there?? Is it ProVT or an oil?


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

My guess is that the rep just helped the painter sell the job.

It's going to be solid body white. I didn't check to see if we're using provt yet, and wasn't aware you had to prime before using it. 

To me, stain is stain. It's not going to last, and if you buy cedar it simply has to be maintained more often. 

As far as liability, I don't have any. It's not my job!

I've been around long enough to know that this job isn't an unusual failure. It's nomal. More failure where the sun shines. Scraping won't remove material from knots, all the usual stuff. It's not falling off the house or anything.
Thanks for the replies.

MAK, pm on the way. I've been trying to get together with a couple other guys too, just haven't gotten it together yet. I'm in Cary, working in the Barrington area. Pretty far from you guys.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Joewho said:


> It's going to be solid body white. I didn't check to see if we're using provt yet, and wasn't aware you had to prime before using it.



You don't have to prime under provt if a tannin isn't an issue, I do it to me safe.

here is the data sheet on ProVT... http://www.cabotstain.com/pdf/PROV0800.pdf


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Joewho said:


> To me, stain is stain. It's not going to last, and if you buy cedar it simply has to be maintained more often.


Oil prime under latex stain:yes: If there is bare wood on an exterior always use an oil primer. ProVT is a good product. IMO solid stain doesn't peel like paint but fades more. It breathes better. There is a miss conception that new cedar can be sealed with a solid paint. The natural oils in cedar that make it resist rot, are what make paint systems on new cedar fail IMO. I would suggest using a transparent stain for new cedar, build to semi-solids over time, and years later applying a solid once the cedar has aged out. I see lots of failed cedar siding and if you look at the back of the peeled sheets of paint you will see a veneer of cedar on the back. This tells me that the paint adhered but the cedar rejected the paint (couldn't breath). Cedar needs to age before solid stains or paints are applied, but I believe solid stains do breath better and should be used if a solid is spec'd for cedar.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Oil prime under latex stain:yes: If there is bare wood on an exterior always use an oil primer. ProVT is a good product. IMO solid stain doesn't peel like paint but fades more. It breathes better. There is a miss conception that new cedar can be sealed with a solid paint. The natural oils in cedar that make it resist rot, are what make paint systems on new cedar fail IMO. I would suggest using a transparent stain for new cedar, build to semi-solids over time, and years later applying a solid once the cedar has aged out. I see lots of failed cedar siding and if you look at the back of the peeled sheets of paint you will see a veneer of cedar on the back. This tells me that the paint adhered but the cedar rejected the paint (couldn't breath). Cedar needs to age before solid stains or paints are applied, but I believe solid stains do breath better and should be used if a solid is spec'd for cedar.


if breathing is an issue, why on earth would you oil prime it? That stuff does not breath at all.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

That was my point why I recommend using transparents on new wood. I simply pointed out that if you are going to use a solid latex stain that I would oil prime it first due to tannin bleed and adhesion issues. I did not say that this method is ideal on new wood. I don't buy into the self priming biz. Also if you read what I wrote you could have came to the finding that you may not be priming and sealing new wood, but aged cedar, and IMO now a solid system can work well. I color coded it for you so I trust you will better understand. Next time try slowing down a bit, maybe re-read if necessary, and I won't have to type another paragraph explaining what I already wrote.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

P2F, I am fairly certain I understood what you wrote. Usually when I see "failed" solid stain it is because it is over oil primer. Stain needs to soak in to a substrate and when you seal it with oil primer, it can not do that. It is stain, not paint, even though it may seem like paint. It essentially has to be self priming due to its nature. I hear you with the concern of tannin bleeds, I wonder if that XIM product mixed in would to your latex stain would help (base coat). I see many systems of water based solid color 2 coats on new cedar that work fine (rough cedar) and look great after 8 years. I also think on new cedar a semi trans system for a few years to let the tannins do their thing and the cedar to be able to breath and age is a good idea, then maybe a coat of semi solid followed by solid color. But if you oil prime it can flake off. If you do not, typically it just starts to erode after years. The latter is much easier to maintain (just stain over it) instead of having to strip and scrape and sand. Obviously these are my opinions and this is what I see here in south central WI.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I think we have had this debate "solid stain is paint" I think the manufacturers specs for the product is what should be adhered too. ProVT does state to prime areas that problems with tannin etc...

I treat ProVT as a flat exterior coating...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> I think we have had this debate "solid stain is paint" I think the manufacturers specs for the product is what should be adhered too. ProVT does state to prime areas that problems with tannin etc...
> 
> I treat ProVT as a flat exterior coating...


Mac's right, Cabot's recommends it's oil based Problem solver as the primer. Just went through this with a homeowner and Cabot's


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I'd ask the contractor if he wants it done or done right. You gotta watch what bridges you burn with the contractor. We just had a job where the contractor wanted "A" and we told him (actually her) that it needed "B" and we would not do it their way and backed it up with documentation. It took over a week, but they called us back. We finished the job Thursday.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> if breathing is an issue, why on earth would you oil prime it? That stuff does not breath at all.


Because the back of the can told me to:whistling2:


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

Tsu, do you not get tannin bleed from cedar if you don't prime?


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

My point was simply this. If you have any leverage in what your customer or GC wants to put on there siding I recommend what I stated above. If I know someone wants a solid color, and they are deciding on siding, I will recommend not using cedar and that maybe they would like cement board siding. If a customer is debating a solid or transparent finish and they have raw cedar siding, I will give them my two cents. I have seen the most nightmares with smooth cedar.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Tsu, do you not get tannin bleed from cedar if you don't prime?


I have not been getting problems with tannin bleed. Rust bleed yes so I spot primed those. I wonder if that XIM additive in the first coat would stop the issues you are having. I assume you are talking rough cedar?


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

It's great to be back here for some quality painter discussion.

There's two issues here regarding primer. One is that it should be used over tannin, the other is that the whole house needs it so the stain will stick.

I agree with priming tannin spots.....AFTER it's been stained.

I don't agree with automatically oil priming cedar before stain.

Who ever said that they see stain fail over oil is what I've seen also.

That being said, suppose we get a nice breathable oil primer.Great, but stain is stain. It's not intended to hold up for an extened period of time. 

So, even if oil primer is ok, the stain will still fade and die is natual death.

Cedar is very light, meaning very porous. On a standard job, where the ho has a reasonable budget, IMO, good stain, without primer would be the rx. Maybe even two coats. I'm talking solid body stain. Keep in mind that in the old days, there was no solid body stian. Solid stain applys like paint so it's easy to use and protects the wood from the sun longer, but it's still stain, not paint.

I think it boils down the to basics. Painting is for protection and beautification. 
Cedar is a wood to use if you want it to last a long time, that's the protection. Cedar likes to twist,cup, buckle, lose knots etc, etc. This is what make long lasting beautification difficult.

I'm working for someone on an hourly basis. I've shared some of my ideas with him on other issues and we get along well. 

As far as the primer, I'd have to look up the specs, as it may be possible the cabots rep did give him a breathable primer. But, he switched over to a BM oil primer.lol.

I'm just throwing this out for discussion, give a little of what I have and take a little of what you guys throw out there.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Here's what I don't get, why spend all the money to side your home with beautiful cedar and then cover it up with a solid stain? I agree that you shouldn't put a solid over the new wood. Start w/ a semi, go to solid over time. Also, I keep saying it - why not paint? I don't get the whole solid stain thing. It doesn't last as long as paint and doesn't cover as well. I always try to convince my customers to go w/ paint rather than stain if they are looking for a solid color.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Here's what I don't get, why spend all the money to side your home with beautiful cedar and then cover it up with a solid stain? I agree that you shouldn't put a solid over the new wood. Start w/ a semi, go to solid over time. Also, I keep saying it - why not paint? I don't get the whole solid stain thing. It doesn't last as long as paint and doesn't cover as well. I always try to convince my customers to go w/ paint rather than stain if they are looking for a solid color.


We are getting 7 -8 years out of ProVT here in Chicago and I wouldn't put anything shiny on rough cedar... I could go longer then 8 on some but the south sides are usually showing wear by then. No peeling just wash and re coat...


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