# Aura streaking and sheen inconsistency



## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Long story short very large room. 16' floor to ceiling. Full popcorn removal and Cadillac prep job. All ceilings and walls primed using rx35. Ceiling 2 coats 400 flat. I applied the first coat of aura matte tinted to valley forge tan. Looked great with non streaking or sheen marks. Applied the second coat today and it's a total disaster. Looks like sh!t. Bm store comped me some regal matte saying it won't dry as fast as that was my problem (according to them) I'm thinking of repriming all walls using rx35 and use the regal. The bm store is insisting that a reprime is not necessary. What is my best option. I also have thought of using ppg 350 flat after the prime.the pics don't do it justice as to how bad it looks. Any advice would be appreciated










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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Why rx35 as a primer??


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Aura does indeed set up quick, regal is a bit more forgiving in that regard. Turn down the heat, _maybe _use a bit of extender. Lets your cut ins fully dry then roll. Work fast, don't back roll, just get it on the wall and let the paint do its thing. 14" or 18" prodooz ftp are my go to covers.

I am confident that if HO's armed with a 9" superdooz can make Aura look good then so can you


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Rx35 is the exact same thing as guardz. We use it seal all of our wall repair and it helps slow the topcoat to dry more evenly. I have used it for years and this is the first bad reaction



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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I am using a 14" pro dooz the white with the gold stripe 1/2" nap


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Only other time I have seen lap marks were from applying too much pressure while rolling. This was a professional painter using aura... Not sure what else to tell you other than I have seen people who have never painted a day in their lives use aura with good looking results.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Best guess is that yes, it's drying too fast on those big walls....also, it may even out a bit as it cures maybe? I'd give it the weekend and check it out on Monday, see if it lays down to a more acceptable and consistent sheen. No need to reprime, you've got a good base going, just some inconsistency. I'd grab another gallon of aura personally and just try rolling out a couple of small areas that you're unhappy with. If you change products, you'll definitely have to recut it all. Rolling the dice, with an 18, and just loading it and laying it off in 1 direction may well be all it needs if anything at all. No need to recut. Your products seem right (though I don't understand 400 over 508? But I'm also new to the bm game.) I love those covers but those big walls take time and aura doesn't give ya much....id probably go with a 3/4 just to get more product up faster with less loading....anyway, I do think it's process related. Might do well with a bit of extender and use regal next time on projects that have lots of big walls and critical light. 

I dunno....keep us posted!



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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Rx35 is the exact same thing as guardz. We use it seal all of our wall repair and it helps slow the topcoat to dry more evenly. I have used it for years and this is the first bad reaction
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really? I don't think so.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm not trying to split hairs over comparing guardz and Rx. I get rx from any store around me and it 10$ less a gallon compared to guardz available at 3 stores in my area and being over 30$ a gallon. It works fine for me


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> Best guess is that yes, it's drying too fast on those big walls....also, it may even out a bit as it cures maybe? I'd give it the weekend and check it out on Monday, see if it lays down to a more acceptable and consistent sheen. No need to reprime, you've got a good base going, just some inconsistency. I'd grab another gallon of aura personally and just try rolling out a couple of small areas that you're unhappy with. If you change products, you'll definitely have to recut it all. Rolling the dice, with an 18, and just loading it and laying it off in 1 direction may well be all it needs if anything at all. No need to recut. Your products seem right (though I don't understand 400 over 508? But I'm also new to the bm QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I use 400 flat bc it's way cheaper and I think the bm ceiling paint dries extremely fast and is harder to get a second coat over itself
> ...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Needed to use a higher solids primer. And i would go with the Regal. PM 400 is fine for ceilings.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> Needed to use a higher solids primer. And i would go with the Regal. PM 400 is fine for ceilings.


What is your logic behind needing a higher solids primer?

What I gather from this whole thing, is that the rx35 kept the aura from drying too quick, which is why the first coat looked fine, then the second coat dried quicker because it wasnt over the RX35.

Matte paints do this sometimes. I've had occasions where we had to use an 18" roller to get it to look right.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Ended up going with 2 coats of regal without the extra primer and two people rolling to split the large drop in half. Looked better but not stunning. I'm hoping as the paint cures some of the streaks will go away. The mantle I built went over great and the customer was tickled pink with the whole job







I was reluctant to use pine but the solid birch was so much more expensive. Lenmar alkyd stain and 3 coats of latex helmsman satin


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

We use rx 35 for most everything interior except stain blocking and adhesion and have loved the results. That's why I chose it. I can get S-W multi purpose for 17$ gallon and rx for about 18$ so it's really a toss up


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Fine looking mantle! Birch has some good figure...nice job!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I will just point this out, Gardz is a little more expensive for a good reason. It's a better product. If you are satisfied with the rx, then have at it. I am just an old painter trying to help.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> Needed to use a higher solids primer. And i would go with the Regal. PM 400 is fine for ceilings.


I like this suggestion. Higher film build on the wall may help create a better foundation and uniformity. May help too with the inherent undulations in dry wall that get picked up by the angular sheen of the finish.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Personally, I think it is going to be difficult to get rid of all of that with modern paints when viewed from the side. We had a 20’ tall, 5’ side entry like that which could be viewed from the side on an upper landing. Aura eggshell. From the front, it looked great. From the side angle, I don’t think it mattered what we did. Not enough room to lay it off in long roller passes. I think the PDCA “normal viewing angle” should be considered in these situations. Extreme side angles are not normal. Aura matte does it too.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

There's a lot of natural light poking through that entrance way as well. That's not exactly gonna help things.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

NACE said:


> I like this suggestion. Higher film build on the wall may help create a better foundation and uniformity. May help too with the inherent undulations in dry wall that get picked up by the angular sheen of the finish.


What is the purpose as the walls were previously primed and painted? The walls were already sealed, and already have build. What is the purpose of adding more?

I really dont understand why the walls were primed at all in this, case, but to each his own... Unless Im missing something, and the walls had fresh texture on them...

Anyway, my guess is that the streaking is from the matte finish. It acts weird sometimes.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

We primed the walls bc all the corner beads were scraped and remudded also screw pops and re taped all inside corners and all seams on ceiling after popcorn removal. 


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jr.sr. painting said:


> We primed the walls bc all the corner beads were scraped and remudded also screw pops and re taped all inside corners and all seams on ceiling after popcorn removal.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Okay, but for the most, part the walls were previously painted. Im still curious as to why others on here are saying you should have used a higher solids primer on walls that are already painted. Im guessing, that even without a high solids primer, all your corner bead patches blended in just fine. 

Personally, Im with you, in that I'd rather the first primer be thinner, so it penetrates the mud/texture better. Im sure rx-35 does an adequate job at that, even if it isnt quite as good as gardz.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If the "streaking" is the overlap flashing from the roller, I don't think anything will help that other than to drop the temperature in the house and don't use fans. It seems that many of these thermoplastic coatings are using alternative vehicle solvents to reduce VOC emissions, while excelerating dry times in order to reduce recoat times. 

The chemists are going to have to start collecting data outside of their controlled lab environments, and actually paint in the conditions we paint in, rather than making conclusions based on an instrument's results.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Personally, I think it is going to be difficult to get rid of all of that with modern paints when viewed from the side. We had a 20’ tall, 5’ side entry like that which could be viewed from the side on an upper landing. Aura eggshell. From the front, it looked great. From the side angle, I don’t think it mattered what we did. Not enough room to lay it off in long roller passes. I think the PDCA “normal viewing angle” should be considered in these situations. Extreme side angles are not normal. Aura matte does it too.


Totally agree. Any finish would be near impossible to get a complete even sheen on walls that size. A lot of walls turn out this way but you cant tell because you’re not able to catch that kind of angle on normal size rooms with standard 8 or 9 foot ceilings. Usually walls that size will look more uniform in whites or pastels. Just less obvious with lighter tones. Mid and deep tones forget about it. IMO thats one of the drawbacks to modern paints is they are so finicky in getting them to look even sheen wise. Same with patched areas. Getting them to blend with the rest of the wall can be a pita sometimes. Older generation paints were much better than today’s paints in regards to coverage and sheen consistentcy.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

loaded brush said:


> Totally agree. Any finish would be near impossible to get a complete even sheen on walls that size. A lot of walls turn out this way but you cant tell because you’re not able to catch that kind of angle on normal size rooms with standard 8 or 9 foot ceilings. Usually walls that size will look more uniform in whites or pastels. Just less obvious with lighter tones. Mid and deep tones forget about it. IMO thats one of the drawbacks to modern paints is they are so finicky in getting them to look even sheen wise. Same with patched areas. Getting them to blend with the rest of the wall can be a pita sometimes. Older generation paints were much better than today’s paints in regards to coverage and sheen consistentcy.


I concour. Not to mention , I find the colours/ additives in those darker tones, especially in the Aura line like to seperate pretty quickly. I always give the can a good mix before use...


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

From the 3rd pic, it looks like just laying it off in one direction woulda helped a lot....glad ya got it figured out though. Those types of situations can be quite the challenge. Gotta remember though, we are FAR more critical than the average ho. And I don't think primer had anything to do with it. Especially if the 1st coat was fine. 1st coat sucked the 2nd coat up a little and ya just needed an 18 and to lay it off. I see up and down streaks. Like sheen shearing. 

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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Wooster Micro Plush*



jr.sr. painting said:


> I am using a 14" pro dooz the white with the gold stripe 1/2" nap
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


jsp, have you ever tried Wooster's Micro Plush roller cover? Comes in various naps and lengths:

http://www.woosterbrush.com/rollers/catalog/micro-plush/

It seems different from most other rollers, including microfibers, and does not seem to leave as much difference in the paint when rolling up or down. Rollers with fibers that stcik straight out have a tendency to flatten out in one direction, then reverse that direction when rolling the other direction. I have had roller covers turn into dual mohair covers - such that one half of the roller rolls smooth going down and the other half rough, then reverse when rolling up! There is no way to tip off the paint when this happens.

The Wooster Micro Plush seems to stay in shape when rolling both up and down. Most of my experience is with the 5/16" nap, and it gives a very smooth finish. I recently used the 9/16" nap on a textured ceiling and it worked very well. I took the opportunity to do a test on a 2' x 2' piece of drywall using the 9/16" and it seems smooth enough to me, but I will have to do one with the 5/16" to get a side by side comparison.

I have read favorable comments from a number of others here regarding the Micro Plush. You may find yourself switching over to these for most of your work. I did. And I used to really like the Pro Dooz FTP, but now that I have the Micro Plush I don't use the FTPs anymore. Jest some thoughts.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*508 2nd coat problems*



jr.sr. painting said:


> lilpaintchic said:
> 
> 
> > Best guess is that yes, it's drying too fast on those big walls....also, it may even out a bit as it cures maybe? I'd give it the weekend and check it out on Monday, see if it lays down to a more acceptable and consistent sheen. No need to reprime, you've got a good base going, just some inconsistency. I'd grab another gallon of aura personally and just try rolling out a couple of small areas that you're unhappy with. If you change products, you'll definitely have to recut it all. Rolling the dice, with an 18, and just loading it and laying it off in 1 direction may well be all it needs if anything at all. No need to recut. Your products seem right (though I don't understand 400 over 508? But I'm also new to the bm QUOTE]
> ...


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Woodco said:


> What is the purpose as the walls were previously primed and painted? The walls were already sealed, and already have build. What is the purpose of adding more?
> 
> I really dont understand why the walls were primed at all in this, case, but to each his own... Unless Im missing something, and the walls had fresh texture on them...
> 
> Anyway, my guess is that the streaking is from the matte finish. It acts weird sometimes.


I can see your point however depending on the type of paint that was on the wall doesn’t mean it was sealed, or the age of the system. Agree that Aura Matte has that look and streaking can be associated with it in certain colors. Most times Aura has a tight enough film that it hides and seals well especially over itself. If there was a cheaper or flat system on the wall I believe a higher build primer may have helped. The angle sheen in the photos indicates undulations in the drywall and that can always highlight the finish of Aura Matte.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> futtyos


You gotta learn how paint goes on. You're so addicted to gardz, you forget how normal paint is. Thats my main issue with you and gardz. Yes, the FIRST coat goes on smooth as silk, but the second coat still goes on like a normal coat of paint. So, basically, you go through the extra effort of priming with gardz, so the next coat goes on nicer. If you learn how to apply the paint good without gardz, you can skip a whole coat of paint. I see ZERO reason to put a second coat of gardz on BTW. You're wasting time and material. One coat seals the surface sufficiently for a topcoat.

It seems like you are only using gardz to make YOUR job easier, instead of preparing the surface, but it takes longer because you're applying coats needlessly. think about it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

NACE said:


> I can see your point however depending on the type of paint that was on the wall doesn’t mean it was sealed, or the age of the system.


I dont buy that for a second. If its been painted, its been sealed. Rolling two coats over a high build primer is not gonna look any better than rolling two coats over a builders flat.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Aura seems to seal drywall better than drywall primer. At least, the second coat of aura goes a lot further than the first over primer.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Use microplush sleeves and switch to regal, it's better than Aura IMO. We also add a cup of water to every gallon.

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Okay, but for the most, part the walls were previously painted. Im still curious as to why others on here are saying you should have used a higher solids primer on walls that are already painted. Im guessing, that even without a high solids primer, all your corner bead patches blended in just fine.
> 
> Personally, Im with you, in that I'd rather the first primer be thinner, so it penetrates the mud/texture better. Im sure rx-35 does an adequate job at that, even if it isnt quite as good as gardz.


No need to use a high solids primer. You could just keep putting more coats of $70 Aura on until the holdout problem is gone. If that's your business model. Just saying. (And i've seen this at least weekly for the last 30+ years. And i see it in every building i go into that has a long, high wall painted with anything other than a flat and it drives me up a frickin' wall because it is so damn easy to correct.)

If the walls were painted with 10 coats of flat and never primed with a high solids primer it would still do this when painted with any kind of sheen the first time. In fact it happens on most walls you just never see it until the conditions are right. You can go in to any room in a house, turn the lights off and block out any sunlight, lay your head against the wall at one corner, have someone shine a penlight against the wall in the far corner at about a 60 degree angle, and you will see it almost every time. Until enough solids are put on that wall it will always be there, but you may or may not see it unless the lighting conditions are right. Dead flat paints do not reflect ANY light, and that is why you never see it until a sheen is applied. It is NOT the paint brand!

The biggest proof of the high solids primer i have ever seen was a painter that was painting the walls of a private 200 seat movie theater. The walls were to be painted a low sheen black. They had previously been flat black but the HO didn't like the way the flat was burnishing whenever someone brushed against it, so the painter correctly recommended a "low sheen" paint. After 6-7 coats of 4 different brands of paint, he came to us (I was at PPG at the time) and i recommended trying a high solids prime coat after consulting with tech services. The painter was quite skeptical, and like most painters failed to see how it would help. But i told him i would stand behind it 100% if he used the primer i recommended and two coats of our low sheen black. I tinted the primer gray, and after one coat of primer and a coat of paint the ho was quite satisfied with the result. The weird thing was that when the "house lights" were on, (the full lights in the room, theater term) you couldn't see the holdout problem with the previous coats. It was just when the lights in the sconces were on when the room was dimmed that is would show up. Very badly! Once the primer was used and the painter did the second paint coat, it didn't do it anymore.

Ever since then this has been my recommendation on high, long walls when any sheen is applied to a wall that is painted with flat. You CAN keep painting it until the sheen evens out if you want to. Trust me that is fine by most paint retailers. They get to sell more $70 a gallon paint that way, so why would they tell you the best way to avoid it?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> No need to use a high solids primer. You could just keep putting more coats of $70 Aura on until the holdout problem is gone. If that's your business model. Just saying. (And i've seen this at least weekly for the last 30+ years. And i see it in every building i go into that has a long, high wall painted with anything other than a flat and it drives me up a frickin' wall because it is so damn easy to correct.)
> 
> If the walls were painted with 10 coats of flat and never primed with a high solids primer it would still do this when painted with any kind of sheen the first time. In fact it happens on most walls you just never see it until the conditions are right. You can go in to any room in a house, turn the lights off and block out any sunlight, lay your head against the wall at one corner, have someone shine a penlight against the wall in the far corner at about a 60 degree angle, and you will see it almost every time. Until enough solids are put on that wall it will always be there, but you may or may not see it unless the lighting conditions are right. Dead flat paints do not reflect ANY light, and that is why you never see it until a sheen is applied. It is NOT the paint brand!
> 
> ...


To be clear i am referring to resin solids not total, pigment, or vehicle solids. Those are worthless for sheen holdout. Some paint companies like to throw them out there to show how gooder their paint is but in a case like this they do absolutely nothing to alleviate the problem.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Woodco said:


> I dont buy that for a second. If its been painted, its been sealed. Rolling two coats over a high build primer is not gonna look any better than rolling two coats over a builders flat.




I have to disagree with your statement about it looking any different over a primer or 2 coats straight over a builders flat. Those builders flats are like sponges when it comes to going over them. I'm not saying it has to be a clear primer but anything over that flat will help. You use so much more finish paint that way. If you always have a few cans of primer with you (atleast I do a white, clear, and a grey) it's worth priming. I know it may take an extra hour for a bedroom to do it that way but in the end I can say I did the best possible prep and finish to make my job stand out above the rest of the abc painting crews around me. Staying busy and booked especially this time of year def says something about the quality of my work and I'll hang my hat on that


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I have to disagree with your statement about it looking any different over a primer or 2 coats straight over a builders flat. Those builders flats are like sponges when it comes to going over them. I'm not saying it has to be a clear primer but anything over that flat will help. You use so much more finish paint that way. If you always have a few cans of primer with you (atleast I do a white, clear, and a grey) it's worth priming. I know it may take an extra hour for a bedroom to do it that way but in the end I can say I did the best possible prep and finish to make my job stand out above the rest of the abc painting crews around me. Staying busy and booked especially this time of year def says something about the quality of my work and I'll hang my hat on that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Builder's flats and in actuality any flat will have a high pigment solids percentage. They are low in resin solids percentage. That is what makes them flat. And cheaper then paints with higher sheens because resin solids are MUCH more expensive then filler pigments are. And as such they are MUCH more absorbent than paints with a higher resin solids percentage. Any wall that has never been primed and has only been painted with flats, unless many, many coats of said flat have previously been applied, will have poor sheen holdout if painted with a higher sheen paint. If enough coats of flat have been applied, then a coat or two of gardz will usually do the job, as it will seal the filler pigments of the flat from absorbing the resins of a higher sheen paint. BUT on walls such as this, the gardz may NOT be enough resin solids to do the job. As such i would recommend using a high resin solids primer as opposed to Gardz or multiple coats of the higher sheen paints.

It is quite common to have painters and DIY'ers in particular to have this issue when painting a previously flat painted wall in a satin for example. As much as i personally dislike satins for walls it is the trend in my geographic area and quite common among the box store paint customers to use it on repaints, especially over flat paint. It always looks like 5hit, and the customer AND the paint retailer don't have a clue why. This is why.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*High acrylic resin primers*



PACman said:


> Builder's flats and in actuality any flat will have a high pigment solids percentage. They are low in resin solids percentage. That is what makes them flat. And cheaper then paints with higher sheens because resin solids are MUCH more expensive then filler pigments are. And as such they are MUCH more absorbent than paints with a higher resin solids percentage. Any wall that has never been primed and has only been painted with flats, unless many, many coats of said flat have previously been applied, will have poor sheen holdout if painted with a higher sheen paint. If enough coats of flat have been applied, then a coat or two of gardz will usually do the job, as it will seal the filler pigments of the flat from absorbing the resins of a higher sheen paint. BUT on walls such as this, the gardz may NOT be enough resin solids to do the job. As such i would recommend using a high resin solids primer as opposed to Gardz or multiple coats of the higher sheen paints.
> 
> It is quite common to have painters and DIY'ers in particular to have this issue when painting a previously flat painted wall in a satin for example. As much as i personally dislike satins for walls it is the trend in my geographic area and quite common among the box store paint customers to use it on repaints, especially over flat paint. It always looks like 5hit, and the customer AND the paint retailer don't have a clue why. This is why.


PACman, do you have any suggestions for a high resin solids primer? I see that Gardz has 26% Styrenated Acrylic Emulsion by weight and 22% by volume while 123 has 50.5% by weight and 34% by volume. Even so, I like the way paint goes over Gardz better than over 123, but maybe this is just a psychological thing.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> Builder's flats and in actuality any flat will have a high pigment solids percentage. They are low in resin solids percentage. That is what makes them flat. And cheaper then paints with higher sheens because resin solids are MUCH more expensive then filler pigments are. And as such they are MUCH more absorbent than paints with a higher resin solids percentage. Any wall that has never been primed and has only been painted with flats, unless many, many coats of said flat have previously been applied, will have poor sheen holdout if painted with a higher sheen paint. If enough coats of flat have been applied, then a coat or two of gardz will usually do the job, as it will seal the filler pigments of the flat from absorbing the resins of a higher sheen paint. BUT on walls such as this, the gardz may NOT be enough resin solids to do the job. As such i would recommend using a high resin solids primer as opposed to Gardz or multiple coats of the higher sheen paints.
> 
> It is quite common to have painters and DIY'ers in particular to have this issue when painting a previously flat painted wall in a satin for example. As much as i personally dislike satins for walls it is the trend in my geographic area and quite common among the box store paint customers to use it on repaints, especially over flat paint. It always looks like 5hit, and the customer AND the paint retailer don't have a clue why. This is why.


Thanks for the explanation. I guess I've just never run into that problem, hence the skepticism.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> PACman, do you have any suggestions for a high resin solids primer? I see that Gardz has 26% Styrenated Acrylic Emulsion by weight and 22% by volume while 123 has 50.5% by weight and 34% by volume. Even so, I like the way paint goes over Gardz better than over 123, but maybe this is just a psychological thing.
> 
> futtyos


Of course Cali Drywall primer! 54400. It has a resin solids of 56%. And unless you are measuring resin solids you are just measuring pigments and any other solids you put in a can. 50.0% by weight could just mean the weight of the product is 50% chalk! And that makes for a crappy primer.

The Gardz relies on it's styrenated acrylic for it's sealing capabilities, which does seal much better than a straight acrylic/vinyl resin. But that is just part of what makes a primer function when it comes to holdout. More resin solids means that there is a THICKERER coat of solids when the product is dry.

Look at it this way. You are painting a cinder block wall. You coat it with two coats of Gardz. Is it sealed? Yup! But if you paint it with a semigloss topcoat, will you still see the pores in the cinderblock? Yup. 

now paint the block with a block filler. Is it sealed? Not really well. But if you paint it with a semigloss, will you see the pores? Not nearly as much as when you used the Gardz. Now if you could combine the properties of both....see where i'm going here? A proper high quality "level 5" high solids primer is specifically engineered to do both relatively well. That's why i recommend it when i hear that a customer is doing a potential problem area like the OP's job. It isn't always needed but is a good way to alleviate any potential for poor sheen holdout.

Oh and P&L Prohide Gold High Holdout Primer (z8165) is another good one i sell, but SW doesn't include the resin solids on the data sheet. (just like they don't for SW labelled products, for some reason.)


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I guess I've just never run into that problem, hence the skepticism.


There are a lot of variables that can cause the problem. I have known painters that have painted 20 years and have never had the problem. Or so they SAY. They just never noticed it!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

PACman said:


> Of course Cali Drywall primer! 54400. It has a resin solids of 56%. And unless you are measuring resin solids you are just measuring pigments and any other solids you put in a can. 50.0% by weight could just mean the weight of the product is 50% chalk! And that makes for a crappy primer.
> 
> The Gardz relies on it's styrenated acrylic for it's sealing capabilities, which does seal much better than a straight acrylic/vinyl resin. But that is just part of what makes a primer function when it comes to holdout. More resin solids means that there is a THICKERER coat of solids when the product is dry.
> 
> ...


Indeed some great technical info here Pacman. Tell me then, what makes paints like Aura etc. considered a self priming paint.? Is there just a higher than normal amount of resin or pigments in there for them to claim it? Or is it total BS..


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Indeed some great technical info here Pacman. Tell me then, what makes paints like Aura etc. considered a self priming paint.? Is there just a higher than normal amount of resin or pigments in there for them to claim it? Or is it total BS..


It's pretty much BS. There has been an increase in most pigment levels to help get paints below the VOC levels. Even in Non-voc restricted areas they are selling voc compliant latex paints because they can "sell" the "priming" capabilities of having a better hiding paint. Another thing is the introduction of the 9th generation acrylic resins several years ago. They do bond much better and are less likely to peel that the previous generation of acrylic resins were. (this would be the Durations, Manor Hall Timeless, Aura products for example, among others) They quite often can be used without a primer, but really not often enough that they should really be marketed as such in my opinion. But like everything else as soon as Home Depot and Lowe's saw Ben Moore and SW selling a "paint and primer" product, (and as such those products were not originally marketed as "paint and primer in one" but as an alternative new generation product that could REDUCE the need for primers but not by any means eliminate them!)

But once HD and Lowe's got "updated" (cough, cough) paint and primer in one products it has gotten to the point that you cannot even sell paint unless it is a "paint and primer in one" product. For that reason it is pure bull****. It's real to a very small extent, and they require certain application parameters to be met, (Durations for example has to be applied at a pretty high wet mil thickness to be a one coat product.) but the average diy'er has no way to apply or means to assure that the products are being applied at the proper thickness under the correct conditions for proper performance. That is why they so often don't meet the customers expectations.

A good example of this is the "paint, prime, and seal" marketing of the infamous Behr Marquee. It requires a wet mil thickness of 8 mils for 
one coat coverage, two coats at 8 mils for a "paint AND primer" system, and can require up to 6 coats of paint AND a coat of oil based primer to be a "sealing" product! FYI 8 mils is equivalent to TWO coats of what we consider a traditional paint! So you put on a coat twice as thick and then you get the "one coat" coverage! The problem? I defy ANYONE to apply Marquee to a wall at 8 mils wet! It cannot be done without some very serious runs and drips. CANNOT BE DONE! And imagine having to spot prime, first coat, second coat, and then having to do a coat of oil based primer and then two MORE coats for a water stain. And as we all know, water stains can take months to bleed through a couple coats of acrylic paint. Imagine doing two double thick coats then after a year or so having to go back and oil prime and re-coat a room. Why the hell would you NOT just prime any stains in the FIRST place? Marketing bull****, that's why.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Indeed some great technical info here Pacman. Tell me then, what makes paints like Aura etc. considered a self priming paint.? Is there just a higher than normal amount of resin or pigments in there for them to claim it? Or is it total BS..


100% marketing geared towards the DIY market. How could I sell Aura when one coat of Behr will 'cover' AND it has 'primer built in!' ? If all of these products were truly self priming for every substrate BM wouldn't manufacture and I wouldn't carry 10 different primers in my store. However I will say if you insist on using $70 paint as new drywall primer be my guest 

Keep your eyes peeled for some new 2018 BM commercials poking fun at the 'one coat coverage' products.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I think almost anyone who has been in the paint business for any length of time has always considered the p&pio products to be a marketing gimmick aimed at the DIY crowd. They aren’t necessarily crappy paints, just not what they claim to be.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

RH said:


> I think almost anyone who has been in the paint business for any length of time has always considered the p&pio products to be a marketing gimmick aimed at the DIY crowd. They aren’t necessarily crappy paints, just not what they claim to be.


My thoughts exactly. I just love hearing Pacmans detailed explanation. :biggrin:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I think almost anyone who has been in the paint business for any length of time has always considered the p&pio products to be a marketing gimmick aimed at the DIY crowd. They aren’t necessarily crappy paints, just not what they claim to be.


I agree. I also believe that the primer/finish paint product was designed because most homeowners are painting over a previously painted surface. And because homeowners think everything needs to be primed, whether it does or not, it was easier to put them at ease by providing a paint that also includes the primer all in one. Add to that, that it could cover in only one coat, reducing the time at the wall, and shazzam! A star was born.

However, the real problem with primer finishes is when the so called professional painter consistently uses it on bare substrates in place of the multitude of substrate specific primers out there. Because, at the end of the day, his interest is speed rather than best practices. And if there are any questions, the loop hole is right there on the can.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I agree. I also believe that the primer/finish paint product was designed because most homeowners are painting over a previously painted surface. And because homeowners think everything needs to be primed, whether it does or not, it was easier to put them at ease by providing a paint that also includes the primer all in one. Add to that, that it could cover in only one coat, reducing the time at the wall, and shazzam! A star was born.
> 
> However, the real problem with primer finishes is when the so called professional painter consistently uses it on bare substrates in place of the multitude of substrate specific primers out there. Because, at the end of the day, his interest is speed rather than best practices. And if there are any questions, the loop hole is right there on the can.


"Hey i advertise $99.99 a room for one coat! The Kilz Onecoat paint i bought at Walmart for $20 a gallon says one coat right on the can! If you don't like the way it looks, it'll be $300.00 to come back and recoat it! Not my problem, blame the paint!" Happens every day around here.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> "Hey i advertise $99.99 a room for one coat! The Kilz Onecoat paint i bought at Walmart for $20 a gallon says one coat right on the can! If you don't like the way it looks, it'll be $300.00 to come back and recoat it! Not my problem, blame the paint!" Happens every day around here.


And there enlies the problem with an unregulated industry. In terms of paint contracting.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> And there enlies the problem with an unregulated industry. In terms of paint contracting.


And as long as the paint manufacturers can put literally anything on their labels and not be held accountable for it, it will continue.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I agree. I also believe that the primer/finish paint product was designed because most homeowners are painting over a previously painted surface. And because homeowners think everything needs to be primed, whether it does or not, it was easier to put them at ease by providing a paint that also includes the primer all in one. Add to that, that it could cover in only one coat, reducing the time at the wall, and shazzam! A star was born.
> 
> However, the real problem with primer finishes is when the so called professional painter consistently uses it on bare substrates in place of the multitude of substrate specific primers out there. Because, at the end of the day, his interest is speed rather than best practices. And if there are any questions, the loop hole is right there on the can.


 
SOME maybe but not all by any means


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> SOME maybe but not all by any means


That's why I used the phrase "the so called professional painter" instead of the professional painter.

But I'm sure you're aware that many painters consider themselves professional, not based on their skills necessarily, but rather based on the amount of money they make. And when time is money, which it largely is in this business, there are a lot of so called professionals.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> That's why I used the phrase "the so called professional painter" instead of the professional painter.
> 
> But I'm sure you're aware that many painters consider themselves professional, not based on their skills necessarily, but rather based on the amount of money they make. And when time is money, which it largely is in this business, there are a lot of so called professionals.


True enough:thumbsup:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Cousin Eddie works for beer. He says he is a professional.


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

With the extensive masking Involved for the ceilings I think I would have just gone the extra mile and prepped for spray. It wouldn't take that much more than you already had to do and spray/backroll usually helps alot with preventing the striping you will see on stairwells and other high stretch walls. Especially with the brutal glancing light you have there.


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