# Siding that never got back primed



## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

I went to look at the side of a house today which was painted last October is failing miserably, its coming off in sheets. I saw some drips coming from the butts of the boards that looked like they were watered down tannin and decided to pop one off and take a look. Sure enough, the siding was never back primed before it was hung. I feel like even if I strip what I can get off the fronts and do an oil prime there will still be problems. Any ideas as to how I can actually do the job and stand behind it?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

The only way you can guarantee the restoration work is if you get it stripped completely and start again. I've been in similar sittuations where they want it put right but the cost is prohibitive. All I say is that I can get off as much as is reasonably possible and treat the exposed areas as they should have been originally.

Be honest with them and tell them that they will have problems with the areas that you cannot get stripped in the future. Maybe even the parts that you've prep'd and redone as it should be because of the surrounding areas.

I've never come across a h/o yet who was willing to have something like that completely stripped and repainted up to spec. I think if they can see you're sincere and honest in the advice you're giving then they understand the predicament that _they_ are in.

Tell them you'll do your very best but won't be able to guarantee the work. Let them know that you'll give it the best chance of some sort of lifespan that you can given the limitations (time, cost etc).


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

That's basically the conversation that I had with the HO today and she is amazingly understanding. I told her that there are things I can do that I *think* might do the trick, but I have never been in a situation like this before, and really would hate to let her down. As far as I understand it though, if the backs of those boards stay exposed, then essentially the flood gates to the paint are open, and I have seen the effects of this first hand this afternoon. Even if I take everything down to bare wood, I still don't beleive the coatings would be successful unless I actually pull the boards off and prime the backs. The bottom line is that she wants to put an end to this problem if it means taking the siding off and priming it, or replacing it, so be it. I just need to be very sure that there is no X factor involved and that whatever I do is a sure thing, not a hopeful experiment.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Well if she's prepared to go all the way then do just that. Take a board off and see how long it's going to take to strip down completely. If it's going to cost more to strip than it is to buy new timber then replace it.

Remember, whichever route you go down, the paint job is going to cost the same. The extra $ is going to be in removing the timber and stripping or removing the timber and replacing with new. From what you've said, it doesn't sound like the paint will take a lot to come off - Maybe a pressure washer for the tough bits?

I always feel bad for the people when they've been given a shoddy job. I'd hate to find myself in that position. All for the sake of the price of a can of paint and a couple of hours labor...


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It can be really tough on homes that are not back primed. I worked on one that we scraped failing areas, spot primed with slow dry oil, and then topcoated and enough moisture was coming through the siding that it push everything off. A year or two later we had a carpenter pull off the siding in the worst areas. Areas that the sun hit directly has moisture condensing behind the siding on the foil backing of the foam sheathing (if that makes descriptive sense) and the cedar siding was resting right on the foil so the water just wicked right through. The builder put a mesh spaced behind the areas so the water could run out and backprimed the siding before it was reinstalled. 

Another job I am dealing with is another white home with major tannin bleed issues and fascia peeling. Again, nothing was back primed.


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

It really is a shame that a lot of contractors don't have the foresight to consider the fact that what they do does effect these homes. At the company I used to work for one of the other foreman (the big money maker) would do the most horrible things to houses and the boss never had any problems with it because he had a high turnover rate. Now mind you this is an established, decade old company that is still continuing to grow, and that foreman is still there to this day not putting primer on, doing one coat when the HO paid for two, shotty scrape jobs, latex when they paid for oil, etc. It just disgusts me because not only are people paying for things that they aren't receiving, but they are being forced to have the job re-done (hopefully by someone who cares) sooner than they should have to. Not only that, but it gives us all a bad name. Now I need a cigarette


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

I think this system would work without failure.
Wedge Vents, peel bond, and top coat. Make sure there are no funny rooflines or anything else funneling water back into the siding. Not sure how time consuming installing wedge vents would be but I would think that system would end up working fine. Just let it dry out for a while after you scrape it.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> I think this system would work without failure.
> Wedge Vents, peel bond, and top coat. Make sure there are no funny rooflines or anything else funneling water back into the siding. Not sure how time consuming installing wedge vents would be but I would think that system would end up working fine. Just let it dry out for a while after you scrape it.


That system looks cool! I can see the principles behind it. Have you seen any successful results from it?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I agree with Dean. If it is not backprimed, I would be hesitant to oil prime the whole thing. I would use the best acrylic breathable primer possible to allow moisture coming from the backside to escape without pushing the coatings off.


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## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

Read the data sheet for XIM Peel Bond. It's pretty good at sealing everything and leveling out the uneven layers. It is also flexible and breatheable.


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks for everything fellas. It looks like were gona go with the peel bond and wedge vents. I am still a little bit weary of the long term results, but the HO is aware that there is still a risk involved, and we came to the conclusion that it would be a worth while venture.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

PVP, please take pictures of your wedgevent instal and give us a report!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PVPainter said:


> Thanks for everything fellas. It looks like were gona go with the peel bond and wedge vents. I am still a little bit weary of the long term results, but the HO is aware that there is still a risk involved, and we came to the conclusion that it would be a worth while venture.


PV

Its nice to see a paint company explore the options in a tough situation instead of just throwing more paint on without thinking about it. That was a tough situation and you handled it well.


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## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

wedge vent...XIM peel bond ... top coat with Cabots PROVT stain Now you can sleep at night with this system.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

We see a lot of this out here
Clapboard shims and latex
No oil...that would be bad...it would (most likely) peel like a banana
Usually a solid stain is the best choice...especially if it is a "wet" house (exuding moisture from the inside peeling off the paint)


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

slickshift said:


> We see a lot of this out here
> Clapboard shims and latex
> No oil...that would be bad...it would (most likely) peel like a banana
> Usually a solid stain is the best choice...especially if it is a "wet" house (exuding moisture from the inside peeling off the paint)


Slick, I would think the peel bond would dictate the breathability of the system. Lets say it has a breathability of 15. Solid Stain has a breathability of lets say 30. Will putting a more breathable coating on over it have any benefit besides not lasting as long as paint (probably not a benefit to the HO . . .)


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> ... Lets say [peel bond] has a breathability of 15. Solid Stain has a breathability of lets say 30. Will putting a more breathable coating on over it have any benefit...


I can't say for Peel Bond as I am not familiar with it

I can say that with the numbers you mentioned, and addressing the specific problem (moisture inside), there's no specific advantage to putting a less "breathable" coating on top of a more breathable one that I can see
Though the science behind it is not really my gig
I'm pretty sure there was a thread picking these specific nits around here a while ago, maybe try a search

Sometimes the compromise may lean more towards one side for a specific reason

That the solid stain won't last as long as a paint is an arguable position
I personally and professionally disagree with it, but my experience on the shorelines of New England may be specific to the environment I live and work in


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

slickshift said:


> I can't say for Peel Bond as I am not familiar with it
> 
> I can say that with the numbers you mentioned, and addressing the specific problem (moisture inside), there's no specific advantage to putting a less "breathable" coating on top of a more breathable one that I can see
> Though the science behind it is not really my gig
> ...


And my specific environment here in the midwest is completely different. And not to have this turn into another paint vs stain thread. And there are other things like smooth or rough siding. But I was trying to specifically address the breathable product over a not as breathable one.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> ...I was trying to specifically address the breathable product over a not as breathable one.


IIRC, the discussion here came down to one of the more technical dudes saying moisture can only wick at XX rate anyway, so there is a point of no return at which the rate of specific products doesn't matter much

But yes, it certainly could be an issue so to speak

You'd need those numbers to make an accurate determination


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I might be using peelbond on a cedar fence. Its about 50% raw or a least it will be when I'm done pressure washing it.Top coating with flat acrylic paint. We are not doing the homeowner side so it should be an interesting test.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Yeah I think that all you can do is use a good latex primer, ask the home owner to install some extra venting in the roof, make sure the bath room/ kitchen fan are in good shape and repaint it. Also let them know you will see them again in about a year or two when it peels.Most home owners really like for us to be honest with them.I also think that people with older homes know that they are in for a lot of maint on there home.


http://www.JohnHowellConstruction.com


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## mjay (Oct 19, 2007)

What is the age of the house? Do you have any pictures?


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

The house was built in 1980. I don't have pics, with the way things are going weather wise (wet walls until 10 am) I think I will finish what I have already lined up and make it a top priority project in the spring.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

You may want to consider if back priming would have solved or minimzed this problem. Is the Tyvek installed properly? Is there moisture behind the Tyvek or any other insulation? Can there be moisture instrusion from lack of proper soffit and ridge vents? Is there sufficient ventilation for the square footage of the house? Are there gable vents, are they blocked? How about ice dams? Are the gutters in good shape and kept clean? Even back priming of wood may not be enough if there are design defects, poor construction, or insufficient respiration of the house. Was the house ever added onto? Did they install central air? How is the attic? The attic should always be + or - 5 degrees of the outside temperature. Is insulation blocking the soffit vents? I may do some sniffing around before you challenge your reputation with a surface that is failing. Correcting a problem with paint may not be the way to go here. Consider looking a little further to find the source of the moisture and then a coating system can be properly recommended IMO. Hope that helps?


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## danfrmmaine (Sep 26, 2008)

*Consensus then?*

I'm putting clapboards on a gutted farmhouse. New vapor barriers inside, tyvek on outside. Wondering what the consensus is for best priming of wood clapboards. I've seen trim primed with oil then latex. I was hoping oil on both sides and latex on face after installation would be enough.
Any comments
Thanks


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## CobraCDN (Jan 8, 2008)

Ya I'm a little suspect of the wedge vent fix... I suspect there is another problem. I'm in a different climate then a lot of you... extreme temperature changes.. harsh winters, warm summers. Seems to me there is an insulation and or vapor barrier prob.

With that said... cost wise to HO.. I would be exploring removing the wood... replacing the tyvek, reseal the windows and install vinyl siding. If the soffits are plywood, yank them too and install aluminum soffits. A lot of the '80's houses here did not have adequate roof venting also.. so the HO may look into adding a few more. Gable end vents don't work as well.


Cheers


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I think back priming is way way way overated. We're not talking a moisture problem that is causing all that peeling - I have run into this problem many many times, you have a waterfall going on behind those clapboards, shakes. Typically a leaky roof near the eaves lets in considerably water - especially during the freeze thaw cycle of the winter months. I have studied and studied this problem and came up with the conclusion that peeling paint is due 95% of the time to large amounts of ingress coming from the backsides. There is a good chance if the home was built in 1980 - that it didn't have ice & water shield membrane installed along the bottom course of shingles. And it could still be on the original roof - a.k.a 28 yr. old roof with roof granules totally gone from the 'bond' lines. They need a new roof.


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