# Getting paid for prep



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Talk about surface prep... more than 1 hour went into just sanding and detailing each of these poplar casings. (not the door). They have plinth blocks too. You can use a magnifying glass on them, they're flawless because a magnifying glass was used to prep them with a halogen. They were palm sanded with 220 then sanded by hand. What grain?

You are looking at 2 coats of sanded Zinsser CoverStain oil-base over bare poplar ready to be sprayed.

Ya gotta love these jobs. Cant wait to shoot them, all 70 of them!


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

wow, that looks really nice. I can't even see a nail hole or patch. Is it okay to ask how you priced something so labor intensive, or can we still not do that even though it's specific. I'm very curious. Again, nice job:thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It's about time you got away from those tract homes. Welcome to real NC painting!:thumbup:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Is that a pocket door?

From what little I see in the pic it looks nice.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Just thought I saw a bunch of nail holes. But they went away when I washed my screen...... :whistling2:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

:laughing:


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Seriously, kind of figured it out when they _moved_ while I scrolled down. I really need to clean the office.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Just thought I saw a bunch of nail holes. But they went away when I washed my screen...... :whistling2:


That is funny i almost said the same thing.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Hope that is cost plus.


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## Bighead (Nov 28, 2008)

Nice work. I always think to myself that it would be nice to be paid to do the job perfect with no constraints on budget, etc. Perfection is expensive.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

briancreary said:


> wow, that looks really nice. I can't even see a nail hole or patch. Is it okay to ask how you priced something so labor intensive, or can we still not do that even though it's specific. I'm very curious. Again, nice job:thumbup:


We used Sherwin Williams brown patch (the Elmers-like wood filler). All flat areas were knifed and any hole on a profile was pressed by hand. 

Here is another job with the Elmers version (below). The SW filler tends to sand a bit easier, both sand nicely but its not a fast task by any means. Thats why we knock it off with a palm sander then finish any areas by hand. The palm sander (orbital) makes short order of anything flat like baseboards etc. (as seen in that photo)

We spent a considerable amount of time estimating this job knowing the level of detail they wanted. These job types are kind of name your price jobs and the people wanting that type of work typically dont care what the cost is. It was very expensive. Insanely expensive.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Try "Crack Shot" Jack. You will never use the SW or Elmers again.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> It's about time you got away from those tract homes. Welcome to real NC painting!:thumbup:


haha NEP's I'll have you know... I did my very first tract in July of 2009. Those are interesting. I never really fully understood what you guy were talking about when I heard "tract" home until then. We made em nice tho. Thats just how we roll. :thumbsup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Try "Crack Shot" Jack. You will never use the SW or Elmers again.


We only used sw or elmers so we didnt need to tint the filler on such a huge job. A colored filler on these high detail jobs is best. Simply because you can see your work better. I like CrackShot, its one of my favs.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Is that a pocket door?
> 
> From what little I see in the pic it looks nice.


yep, tons of pockets doors on this job. All solid poplar. 2 floors preprimed poplar and 2 floors bare poplar.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Famowood filler that we use on all our painted trim is similar to that filler.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Famowood filler that we use on all our painted trim is similar to that filler.


How is that stuff to finger? Does it knife easy? I noticed using a finger with the sw or elmers is slow and tacky. The warmth of your hands tend to dry the filler quick so requires constantly knifing your fingers clean along with a damp rag.

I'm still in search of the ultimate filler. I'm at a point now where I select a specific filler, or two to finish things. Most NC gets either Crackshot, Elmers or SW brown filler (i dont remember the name) on anything flat, and its knifed. Then anything with a profile gets SW Shrinkfree or DAP Fast N Final, both of which take no effort to sand.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

what's the rationale to priming twice?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Nice looking work Jack. Hope that's not an applied backband with perimeter fastening. We finished one like that recently. I love trim heavy houses.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> what's the rationale to priming twice?


Its all science. ha ha

The first coat is reduce 16-18oz p/gal and shot with FFT. It gets a brief knockdown type sanding then its shot reduced 8-10oz p/gal.

First primer coat penetrates and gives some color. The second builds film because the first keeps it from penetrating back into the poplar.

Sometimes we do one coat reduced Zinsser CoverStain then, sand that nice and reprime with Gripper for gloss retention. Gripper doesnt really sand so its best to apply it to stuff thats smooth. You dont want to put Gripper on bare poplar. You'll sand yer butt off getting it smooth and it'll never look as nice.


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

Nice work!
I like the famowood too. Have had good luck. 
Priming twice....I usually always do with woods that bleed. Or do weird color things. Even when using shellac for tannin bleeds they recommend 2 coats.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We use 3/4 inch wide putty knives and yell at carpenters who nail in the detail areas. Famo dries fast, so we put some on a wider flat surface to work from. Do not work from a open tub or it will get crusty. Add water to keep it moist as needed and it will keep smooth.

For the best job, do not skip the yelling at carpenters step. This is key.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Nice looking work Jack. Hope that's not an applied backband with perimeter fastening. We finished one like that recently. I love trim heavy houses.


Its 2 pieces. I forget the name the guy used. That what you're talking about?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Its 2 pieces. I forget the name the guy used. That what you're talking about?


Yup, that's the stuff. Typically we see a three piece...square stock, applied inner bead and backband. How did pre priming work out? Did they sand out joints on installation?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Here is a nice alternative to Zinsser CoverStain oil-base. Shooting such a large amount of trim with oil is pretty nasty and messy. Our boots had thick clumps on the bottoms like we were walking in mud. I lost track of how many 5's we shot. We still have doors to do.

This water-base primer works pretty good, been using it for over 2 years on poplar. VIDEO is in HD 720p but you have to select it. Might need to select to watch on YouTube.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yup, that's the stuff. Typically we see a three piece...square stock, applied inner bead and backband. How did pre priming work out? Did they sand out joints on installation?


Yep. Prior to our sand party... we went around with the CAPSpray 10,000 and shot anything that needed hit. Some stuff was planed, sanded raw again etc.

The trim guys basically treated that trim as if it wasnt primed. They went to town on it. Nice of them to do some of their own sanding. They took care of splices etc.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

do you guys use crackshot for nail pops, nail holes, light drywall repair?

can you use a heatgun to speed set up w/o problems?

do u use crackshot for exterior work as well?

what caulk do you like for this work, as cost and time are less of an issue.

do you allow longer cure time for caulk since the budget doesnt pressure production rates as much.?

i see so many caulk failures. A painter I respect insists low quality caulk and inadequate cure before painting are the cause

i see the 12% caulks, and the 25% caulks TJM. Big stretch TDS says wait 24hrs on interior applications. I dont hear caulking discussed that much on paint talk (not saying it isnt or hasnt been) 
search function has not been that effective for me either


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We usually use Zinsser Water base for our primer. It may be similar to PrimeCoat2. It is a step down from 123 (does not have the sheen and sands better). There is a better WB primer around here, but it costs mid $30's per gallon, which makes it a little pricey for a primer. It does sand and fill better than the bullseye waterbase though.

I just do not like the mess of oil primers in the spray phase if I can avoid it.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> do you guys use crackshot for nail pops, nail holes, light drywall repair?
> 
> can you use a heatgun to speed set up w/o problems?
> 
> ...


Not so much for nail pops. Depends --if its just a few. Works good on nail holes but many guys apply it wrong and make more work than they need.

You knife it like this. Press twice so it puckers out of the hole. Keep the area around the hole fairly clean. When using your finger, avoid heavy build around the hole. Force the putty swiftly over the hole like you would using a knife and it should crown.



I've used a hair dryer without issue. Heavy areas should be patched twice. No sense in packing a deep hole and forcing it to dry. Kinda fill it, dry it, hit it again.

I tend to use the Elmers more often outside.

DAP Alex Plus 35 year, NR 4000 from SW, or 850A/950 or1st Choice 35 yr. If cure time is an issue, I use DAP FAST DRY. I prefer over night dry for any if possible.

On these OP casings (not photo above), the caulk was knifed clean and we realize that will fail but it will be a clean break. These jobs are all detail so there is no welding joints anywhere paying attention to not change the profile-look.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

this is what it looks like when I use DAP CrackShot over profiled holes. Nice, full and clean. Little to sand.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We knife the famo the same way. Try to knife from 2 directions so it does not pull away from one side on the fill. The better prep guys keep the overfill mostly confined to the nail hole. Leaving too much is a mistake you only make once with the harder sanding fillers!!!!!

For caulk, we used to use White Lightening Pro-Duty, but when SW bought WL out, they dropped it. Now we have not found a fixed replacement. I do not like regular white lightening (3006) since it does not smooth out as well. White Lightening quick dry is the smoothest, but it does not seem to have a very high solids content. It is smooth though. There is one from SW that seems pretty good as well but I do not remember the name right now.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

thanks for taking the time for the thoughtful replyJP


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Another shot of Elmers wood filler knifed on the outer profile edge of a casing. Leaving a slight crown.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> thanks for taking the time for the thoughtful replyJP


You are very welcome!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Its all science. ha ha
> 
> The first coat is reduce 16-18oz p/gal and shot with FFT. It gets a brief knockdown type sanding then its shot reduced 8-10oz p/gal.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't have much experience applying latex primers to bare wood. I usually just use oil primers the way it comes out of the can and brush it on with chine bristle wooster brushes. I don't like poplar trim. The first time I came into contact with it - the builder used No. 75 latex Behr primer on some trim. It looked awful, the grain was all raised - and it wasn't sandable. Then I primed the remainder with Muralo's interior oil undercoater - and it kicked up the grain so bad it was like I was sanding down grass, it took forever. Almost like I should have presanded the wood. Then another time a builder used poplar that was so loaded with resins, that half of it was mill glazed, some of it was outright charred black from the milling process. I feared callbacks so much for the paint not adhering - I steel wooled all of it down with acetone. And yes it dried up the wood of all the resins and mill glaze - but also left an awful kicked up grain mess I had to sand down before priming. Poplar sucks!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> To be honest, I don't have much experience applying latex primers to bare wood. I usually just use oil primers the way it comes out of the can and brush it on with chine bristle wooster brushes. I don't like poplar trim. The first time I came into contact with it - the builder used No. 75 latex Behr primer on some trim. It looked awful, the grain was all raised - and it wasn't sandable. Then I primed the remainder with Muralo's interior oil undercoater - and it kicked up the grain so bad it was like I was sanding down grass, it took forever. Almost like I should have presanded the wood. Then another time a builder used poplar that was so loaded with resins, that half of it was mill glazed, some of it was outright charred black from the milling process. I feared callbacks so much for the paint not adhering - I steel wooled all of it down with acetone. And yes it dried up the wood of all the resins and mill glaze - but also left an awful kicked up grain mess I had to sand down before priming. Poplar sucks!


UGH! No question poplar is the beast of woods to finish on many NC jobs and remodels. Pretty much all we see if it involves bare wood. I've put tremendous time into finding water-base primers for poplar. That PRIMECOAT2 is the only one I'd use as an alternative to CoverStain oil-base to date. 

No question it takes time to put a nice finish on poplar, oil or water-base. Poplar is such a sponge and very colorful wood. Purple to black, brown and green etc. We are finishing poplar almost daily.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I will have to say, I was so pissed at one contractor I stole a can of the behr #75 from the jobsite. Then I tried it on newly installed windowns in my house made of regular pine finished with regular pine trim. Filled the holes and pre-sanded the wood, and have to admit, it really primed the wood nicely! I just hate how all these latex primers have so much ammonia in 'em - they're worse to breathe than oil primers. I actually think oil base kilz works nice on wood, sands like glass. Heck, I might go old school and try BIN on poplar next time - one guy I knew, that's all he ever used.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

i wonder what the difference is between that stuff you use JP and this stuff. I've found this to sand great for a wb.


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## woodtradesman (Sep 22, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> i wonder what the difference is between that stuff you use JP and this stuff. I've found this to sand great for a wb.


Its supposed to be the same stuff with a different label/name for lowes.

And I'll second how great that stuff is for paint grade wood projects.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Why not a good enamel undercoater for the primer. PPG sealgrip and SW 's (whatever they call it now) both cover well, sand great and are just plain wonderful to work with. Don't care about latex raising the grain because it's getting sanded at least once.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think fast prime 2 is Menards. I have seen the Bullseye Waterbase at lowes (for a lot cheaper than my contractor price).

Given the common practice of box stores carrying lesser quality products than others stores, the rebadged stuff from Menards scares me a bit.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

DeanV said:


> I think fast prime 2 is Menards. I have seen the Bullseye Waterbase at lowes (for a lot cheaper than my contractor price).
> 
> Given the common practice of box stores carrying lesser quality products than others stores, the rebadged stuff from Menards scares me a bit.


yeah me too. I've bought quite a bit of the bullseye wb from lowes. I get it several dollars cheaper there than my favorite paint store. Its just too much to pay. And usually I don't need to worry about tinting or if I do, its not that critical. Although a few times have had to make sure the lowes employee didn't overload the primer with tint.


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## woodtradesman (Sep 22, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I think fast prime 2 is Menards. I have seen the Bullseye Waterbase at lowes (for a lot cheaper than my contractor price).
> 
> Given the common practice of box stores carrying lesser quality products than others stores, the rebadged stuff from Menards scares me a bit.


Don't be too put off by the price difference as menard's doesn't have anywhere near the same bulk purchasing power as blowes or home dopey.

How much does it cost at menard anyway?


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

i like to save money as well.
but the paint store does 20% off, that splits the difference in cost w/ the depot, and my local merchant gets the cash, as opposed to The Giant Chain Stores.

That local store sells the specialty items I cant buy at Big Box, and they know what they are talking about.
I want to see them survive


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

For the most part I've used Kilz oil base on bare wood. I like the way it sands, and it lays down really well. I can't wait to try the WB primer in the video. That chaulked up really nice. I used SW "all purpose oil primer" ONCE. I am thinking about trading the rest of the gallon for Michigan11's 395 sprayer.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Different Strokes said:


> I used SW "all purpose oil primer" ONCE. I am thinking about trading the rest of the gallon for Michigan11's 395 sprayer.


:thumbsup:


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

When you started talking about primers I was wondering if you were going to get back to Primecoat2. I also use that and like it. I have tried it with most other primers and I don't think it is exactly the same as Bullseye. Bullseye is actually flatter and raises the grain a bit more. 
Another one that is close is Muralo 563. 
The biggest prob I see with the WB's is the filled area is much smoother than the rest- I really need to prime and sand before filling. I used to prime , fill then sand with BM's oil underbody. Gets to be prime sand,fill, sand, reprime and then 2 coats. On small jobs like I do that can happen quickly, but on those big ones that adds up.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> i like to save money as well.
> but the paint store does 20% off, that splits the difference in cost w/ the depot, and my local merchant gets the cash, as opposed to The Giant Chain Stores.
> 
> That local store sells the specialty items I cant buy at Big Box, and they know what they are talking about.
> I want to see them survive


I'd like to and do on small orders.

But for bigger orders I'm going to lowes when I get $4-8/gal off my normal stores price. I don't need the lowes employee to know whats going on except to shake it up and not over tint.


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## saveonpainting (Mar 17, 2010)

..its a low deff picture and i can still clearly see the seperation between the casings..

For the most part it looks clean..but if your already investing a full hour prep per frame how can you justify that as a billable hour if the frame is not seamless..

Sorry for the critizism


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

saveonpainting said:


> ..its a low deff picture and i can still clearly see the seperation between the casings..
> 
> For the most part it looks clean..but if your already investing a full hour prep per frame how can you justify that as a billable hour if the frame is not seamless..
> 
> Sorry for the critizism


I'm not sure I understand... "if the frame is not seamless.."

We have about 4 man-hours in each casing so far to get them ready to spray. These will be shot twice.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think he is referring to the miter joint on the casing.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I think he is referring to the miter joint on the casing.


ah maybe. thats just because these were primed off the wall. The miters will not be visible through the finish. That would make all of our efforts pointless if they did.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

DeanV said:


> We use 3/4 inch wide putty knives and yell at carpenters who nail in the detail areas. Famo dries fast, so we put some on a wider flat surface to work from. Do not work from a open tub or it will get crusty. Add water to keep it moist as needed and it will keep smooth.
> 
> For the best job, do not skip the yelling at carpenters step. This is key.


With the elmers wood filler i keep a damp rag in the container when the lid i shut....helps from getting crusty. small rag wet with water, thats all


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DHlll said:


> With the elmers wood filler i keep a damp rag in the container when the lid i shut....helps from getting crusty. small rag wet with water, thats all


Do you knife it wet? It says to wet the knife on the container. Just curious if you guys do that.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Do you knife it wet? It says to wet the knife on the container. Just curious if you guys do that.


if i am doing alot of fairing and floating with it i will mix some up in a bread pan and work out of it that way. It definitely knifes smoother wet. i also do the same when knifing and fairing on exterior jobs with mh ready patch. Ready patch has some solvents in it, i believe flash naptha, but i have found that if i am floating out some seams on butt joints, or columns thinning out the ready patch with water makes a smoother product.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wetter is better. But, as with many of lifes pleasures, when you get it wet, it will dry. When things dry they shrink. When they shrink they dimple. When they dimple you skim. When you skim, you sand. Repeat too many times and you might get to do some spot priming. On nc, nail hole filling is a big topic. The bottom line is to find some combination of product and process that is most likely to succeed. There's no perfect system.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

*there is no doubt*

Is no doubt that all nail hole have to be coated twice. if you want a perfectly filled hole it has to be done twice. the key is not burning the primer too much.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DHlll said:


> Is no doubt that all nail hole have to be coated twice. if you want a perfectly filled hole it has to be done twice. the key is not burning the primer too much.


I agree. Others may not.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I agree. Others may not.


Not. Once.  Remember Scott... I put countless hours into figuring out a way to get it done once. Many different products, many different types of MDF, different sandpaper, different knifes etc. The PC job I just performed this on was using 2 to get them flush. Now only one. He told me it couldn't be done too.

I've found on MDF the trick is getting the hole smooth before you start. You can burn it to bare MDF but the area around the hole has to be smooth.

Components to get it done

Flexible knife (springy)
Fair amount of pressure applied
The angle of the knife
2 presses in 2 different directions
Sanding area around hole smooth first
Type of sandpaper used. Fuzzy MDF is bad. Smooth bare MDF good.
Filler type (vague because different MDF types require different fillers)
Filler must crown. No crown? You'll likely hit it twice.
Critical is the sandpaper used to sand the filler. 3M fine/med blocks bad. 220 paper good, orbital sander better on flats. 220 folded twice bad. Folded 3 times good.
Glossy MDF bad. Glossy MDF needs low abrasion new primer. Gripper bad. PrimeCoat2 good.

If filling rounded profiles, the thumb pressure needs to be great enough to crown then using many of the above.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Our success rate is maybe 75% at a high level. 100% at a generally accepted level that doesn't meet our trim standards. They just have to be gone in the houses we do.



jack pauhl said:


> Not. Once.  Remember Scott... I put countless hours into figuring out a way to get it done once. Many different products, many different types of MDF, different sandpaper, different knifes etc. The PC job I just performed this on was using 2 to get them flush. Now only one. He told me it couldn't be done too.
> 
> I've found on MDF the trick is getting the hole smooth before you start. You can burn it to bare MDF but the area around the hole has to be smooth.
> 
> ...


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We get most of ours in one pass. We do find some that need a little attention on the second coat. I have not tried sanding by the hole before filling, which I could see getting rid of the ones that need attention a second time around. But, I am not sure it would save time compared to the quick touch-up on some of the nails.

I will say that I tried swapping out famo for Crackshot and Crackshot needed two on almost everything.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Our success rate is maybe 75% at a high level. 100% at a generally accepted level that doesn't meet our trim standards. They just have to be gone in the houses we do.


There is nothing worse than putting a fine finish on MDF and having your nail holes seen in the finish.

I'll end up doing a video on MDF, at least on one type. I'll do it in great detail because there is so much trivial stuff that makes or breaks the finish. So many things to avoid etc. I've actually tried to make MDF finishing videos before but I lose the clarity after its uploaded. I might try two tripods, one with video and the other shooting stills on a 3 sec timer and maybe drop in those stills where they fall into discussion. The detail is somewhat important to see otherwise it just looks like another hole filled. I'd like to be able to show the fill type scenario most likely to need two coats so it can be avoided. 

If you do two coats of filler ... do you guys sand between them or just knife off bulk like a mudder would do then hit it again w/o sanding between?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We rarely see mdf trim. 

As to your question...combo. Knife, finger wipe, secret abrasive wipe, then buttery final skim. I don't like to see alot of elbow grease and abrasives in between rounds. We can usually tell while the first fill is wet if further attention will be required.

One critical dynamic that hasn't been covered is that filling is different on raw wood vs primed. Totally different products and process for me. I don't want to explore it here because there are guys who don't prime door tops and bottoms. 







vermontpainter said:


> Our success rate is maybe 75% at a high level. 100% at a generally accepted level that doesn't meet our trim standards. They just have to be gone in the houses we do.





jack pauhl said:


> There is nothing worse than putting a fine finish on MDF and having your nail holes seen in the finish.
> 
> I'll end up doing a video on MDF, at least on one type. I'll do it in great detail because there is so much trivial stuff that makes or breaks the finish. So many things to avoid etc. I've actually tried to make MDF finishing videos before but I lose the clarity after its uploaded. I might try two tripods, one with video and the other shooting stills on a 3 sec timer and maybe drop in those stills where they fall into discussion. The detail is somewhat important to see otherwise it just looks like another hole filled. I'd like to be able to show the fill type scenario most likely to need two coats so it can be avoided.
> 
> If you do two coats of filler ... do you guys sand between them or just knife off bulk like a mudder would do then hit it again w/o sanding between?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Fill once, prime, sand, light up and tweak filler and trim as needed (hopefully minimal), caulk, finish coat, light and tweak, final coat.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> There is nothing worse than putting a fine finish on MDF and having your nail holes seen in the finish.
> 
> I'll end up doing a video on MDF, at least on one type. I'll do it in great detail because there is so much trivial stuff that makes or breaks the finish. So many things to avoid etc. I've actually tried to make MDF finishing videos before but I lose the clarity after its uploaded. I might try two tripods, one with video and the other shooting stills on a 3 sec timer and maybe drop in those stills where they fall into discussion. The detail is somewhat important to see otherwise it just looks like another hole filled. I'd like to be able to show the fill type scenario most likely to need two coats so it can be avoided.
> 
> If you do two coats of filler ... do you guys sand between them or just knife off bulk like a mudder would do then hit it again w/o sanding between?


 You can use another video site like viemo for HD video. Youtube really butchers videos.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We do not see much poplar on trim anymore. Same filler for use though. Same order as well. It has been years since I had poplar for trim. I have had maple for painted cabinets on occasion.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> We get most of ours in one pass. We do find some that need a little attention on the second coat. I have not tried sanding by the hole before filling, which I could see getting rid of the ones that need attention a second time around. But, I am not sure it would save time compared to the quick touch-up on some of the nails.
> 
> I will say that I tried swapping out famo for Crackshot and Crackshot needed two on almost everything.


Dean I've seen some MDF types that do not need any sanding at all. The nail holes tend to break through the MDF clean without chipping or crowning (puckering). 

The MDF seen below borders on getting re-primed. Its a bit too smooth but not glossy. Filling on any glossy surface is bad. Have you tried filling on Gripper before... bad news... difficult to get flush.



The PC I am working with now was using CrackShot too and doing twice. Not all holes but many of them. His methods were less favorable seen below. 

Both of these next two photos are CrackShot done in a bad way.
1) no pre-sanding
2) are we patching the holes or building mountains?
3) glue from nail gun sticking out of the holes (yellow strips)
4) after the filler is sanded to the point you see the hole, the MDF around the hole will be burned out 
5) once you see the hole, now the crown around it needs to be smooth so you keep sanding which burns more mdf out and also chips out the area around the holes. Just making more work then needs more filler and more sanding


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Fill once, prime, sand, light up and tweak filler and trim as needed (hopefully minimal), caulk, finish coat, light and tweak, final coat.


You said fill once, prime, sand. No sanding the filler or typo?

The PC I am working with now was caulking first. umm yeah. thats not a good idea.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Fill and sand holes and bad mdf edges or areas, then prime. 

Now I need to be more specific


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> We rarely see mdf trim.
> 
> As to your question...combo. Knife, finger wipe, secret abrasive wipe, then buttery final skim. I don't like to see alot of elbow grease and abrasives in between rounds. We can usually tell while the first fill is wet if further attention will be required.
> 
> One critical dynamic that hasn't been covered is that filling is different on raw wood vs primed. Totally different products and process for me. I don't want to explore it here because there are guys who don't prime door tops and bottoms.


You have a secret abrasive wiper? ah man. jealous.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> You have a secret abrasive wiper? ah man. jealous.


Yup. :thumbup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yup. :thumbup:


what color is it? :whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> what color is it? :whistling2:


Somewhere between khaki and honey mustard dipping sauce.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Somewhere between khaki and honey mustard dipping sauce.


Sounds gross. I'll try anything as long as it doesn't smell like mc donalds chicken nuggets.


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