# Re-painting over Gaco-deck type products



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I have a house to do with several decks coated with that waterproof membrane stuff. Spantex and Gaco deck are two popular ones around here. Problem is no idea what product exactly is on there now. I've used super deck Deck & Dock successfully on a small re paint last year but I'd like to be really confident going into this one. What do you usually do in this case?


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Deck and dock


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Any long term results? Like several years and still holding strong?


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## Cam3sc (Mar 25, 2013)

I did a draw down at the store to test the adhesion of deck and dock and amorseal treadplex on that deck product . The armorseal stood up better to the finger nail test.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Cam3sc said:


> I did a draw down at the store to test the adhesion of deck and dock and amorseal treadplex on that deck product . The armorseal stood up better to the finger nail test.



Armor seal from SW ?


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## Cam3sc (Mar 25, 2013)

Damon T said:


> Armor seal from SW ?


Yes. I let it cure for two weeks before I tested them


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Does that have pretty good flexibility? 
Have you seen the projects a year or two later? Thx


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Anyone else paint over those water proof decks?


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Treadplex is one of my favorites but deck&dock is very good. isn't that Gaco stuff with walnut shells?? Very thick similar to deck over I beleive ?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gaco is super thick super expensive stuff. Not sure about the walnut shells.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Damon T said:


> Gaco is super thick super expensive stuff. Not sure about the walnut shells.


Pretty sure they have that option to add them. My BM supplier brought some in years ago to didn't really sell here. Then I saw it in Big Orange. It is thick if it's solid and not failed either one should work. Maybe get SW rep on it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Maybe get SW rep on it.


:yes:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm painting over some right now with sherlastic. But I'm only point the where the vertical portions of it, not anything horizontal.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

sorry guys but that stuff will have to come completely off. If SW says it can be painted go ahead, but don't expect to get anything out of them when it fails.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

There ain't no getting the old stuff off. That's part of the waterproof deck. It's a fully taped system. "Wouldn't be prudent"


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> There ain't no getting the old stuff off. That's part of the waterproof deck. It's a fully taped system. "Wouldn't be prudent"


good luck then.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm with PACman. I wouldn't paint over that product. When it delams inevitably and then the HO finds the decks completely rotted out, they're going to blame you. I'd walk away, and let them know that they used a product that ruined their deck (in as nice a way as possible). People need to know what this stuff does. Good luck.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

My Miller rep says the Deck & Dock works good over the elastomeric Gaco decks which makes sense since they're both elastomerics. Just different chemicals.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Woodford said:


> I'm with PACman. I wouldn't paint over that product. When it delams inevitably and then the HO finds the decks completely rotted out, they're going to blame you. I'd walk away, and let them know that they used a product that ruined their deck (in as nice a way as possible). People need to know what this stuff does. Good luck.


It boggles my mind how many PTers suggest walking away from jobs. Never leave money on the table. No one is going to blame me for an original coating failure, it's in my warranty terms.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

AV Painting said:


> It boggles my mind how many PTers suggest walking away from jobs. Never leave money on the table. No one is going to blame me for an original coating failure, it's in my warranty terms.


That's good because every paint warranty says the same thing. You sure don't want to be responsible for something the paint manufacturers aren't responsible for. But, having it in your warranty terms and potentially being blamed for a product failure are two different things. You may not be legally responsible for the failure, but that doesn't mean your client won't blame you for it. And tell all their friends about it. Just a thought.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

AV Painting said:


> It boggles my mind how many PTers suggest walking away from jobs. Never leave money on the table. No one is going to blame me for an original coating failure, it's in my warranty terms.


It's not leaving money on the table if it potentially costs you money or referrals in the future. It's nice that you think you should take every job, but as you mature as a business owner (assuming you are one) you'll come to understand. You can ask how many guys here got burned by jobs that they shouldn't have taken; the answer is almost all of them who've been doing it for a while.

Further, it's a bit naïve to think that just because your warranty says something that means people won't blame you for it. We've all seen that that's not true. And further still, if you painted a coating onto something that doesn't work and isn't meant to be coated over (like the Restore-esque products) then maybe you _should_ be held accountable for it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> That's good because every paint warranty says the same thing. You sure don't want to be responsible for something the paint manufacturers aren't responsible for. But, having it in your warranty terms and potentially being blamed for a product failure are two different things. You may not be legally responsible for the failure, but that doesn't mean your client won't blame you for it. And tell all their friends about it. Just a thought.


make sure your clients expectations meet the reality of the situation beforehand. There is no perfect solution for this situation.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Woodford and ProAlliamce are you saying the waterproof elastomeric deck coatings can't be painted over or are you saying you shouldn't paint over them with elastomeric coatings like Deck & Dock? Trying to clarify. My Miller rep said the instructions on her Gaco deck said to recoat every few years. Which nobody does.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Woodford and ProAlliamce are you saying the waterproof elastomeric deck coatings can't be painted over or are you saying you shouldn't paint over them with elastomeric coatings like Deck & Dock? Trying to clarify. My Miller rep said the instructions on her Gaco deck said to recoat every few years. Which nobody does.


Maybe the Gaco is different than the other products I'm used to in that vein. I don't have any experience with that specific product, so just take what I say with a grain of salt there. If your rep says go for it- go for it. All I know is that the other, similar products I've seen don't recommend it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> Woodford and ProAlliamce are you saying the waterproof elastomeric deck coatings can't be painted over or are you saying you shouldn't paint over them with elastomeric coatings like Deck & Dock? Trying to clarify. My Miller rep said the instructions on her Gaco deck said to recoat every few years. Which nobody does.


If the Gaco instructions say to recoat it, a good competitive product such as Deck & Dock should work fine. But I don't think anyone at Gaco will tell you that. I think Woodford and I are a little bit stunned that it lasted long enough to be able to be recoated. It's the first time I have heard of it! The product you recoat with has to have at least an equivalent flexibility. Most elastomeric products for vertical surfaces will have that in their spec's, but I don't know if the horizontal surface elastomeric products mention it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Interesting to me is that after a quick search through some of my favorite paint product review sites, is that most of the reviews for Gaco deck are positive. BUT, all of them are 4-6 years old and there are no follow-up reviews. Is this product still on the market? I thought I heard it wasn't. If the response was that positive why would they take it off the market? It would have been the only one that I have seen that actually works! Anyone know if it is still being sold? The deck finish that is.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Interesting to me is that after a quick search through *some of my favorite paint product review sites*, is that most of the reviews for Gaco deck are positive. BUT, all of them are 4-6 years old and there are no follow-up reviews. Is this product still on the market? I thought I heard it wasn't. If the response was that positive why would they take it off the market? It would have been the only one that I have seen that actually works! Anyone know if it is still being sold? The deck finish that is.


Hey, I got a three day weekend and time to browse. Do you like any of those sites so much as to recommend by name? Or are these some retail insider only things?

If the latter, us outsiders will just have to get Woodford drunk and then pretend to innocently pick his brain.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Hey, I got a three day weekend and time to browse. Do you like any of those sites so much as to recommend by name? Or are these some retail insider only things?
> 
> If the latter, us outsiders will just have to get Woodford drunk and then pretend to innocently pick his brain.


Just type in "elastomeric deck stain complaints" and you'll get a bunch of them. As usual with the internet, only believe about 10% of those comments and complaints. When that 10% gets to be a couple of hundred legitimate complaints, you'll understand full well what woodford and I deal with on a daily basis. Those people are so fed up and upset that they rarely go back to the original retailer or call the original painter. They come to us, then we have to break the news to them.
The coating you used sucks.
You'll never be compensated for your time (that's in the "warranty")
You'll play hell getting it off to use anything else
At best the original seller will replace it with the same faulty product and make you sign a waiver that you accept that replacement as the sole corrective action you are entitled to.
There is NO warranty the second time you use it
It will fail just as bad the second time.
and here is the biggie- There are many paint companies and chemists that know full well why they fail, and that's why they don't have them!
I could have sold thousands of gallons of various products like this in the last 4 years but I refuse to do so. I don't have a multibillion dollar company behind me so I can't absorb the expense of replacing this crap.
They are bound to fail. They do not allow trapped moisture escape by evaporation.
If the Graco deck has worked, and I really don't see many comments about that product other than comments that were posted shortly after it being applied, it would be the only one that I have seen or heard of that worked for a year or two at the most. That's why I am curious as to whether it is still available or not. If it works, I want to sell it.
I have sold elastomeric coatings for years. Horizontal application materials and vertical. I have never seen anyone sell an elastomeric coating for wood until the original Restore came out several years ago. (the originating company sold out to Rustoleum to avoid bankruptcy) All of the ones I have dealt with were for concrete, asphalt, or metal only.

I currently sell California's sport coatings. These are very popular as tennis court coatings and they have a reputation for being among the best there are. They are very similar to what is being sold for use on decks by just about every other paint company out there. But for some reason they are extremely clear about the product NEVER being used on wood. Their literature clearly states that they will absolutely fail if used on wood. Why do you think that is?

I have talked to Pratt and Lambert's marketing department about whether they are ever going to make a similar product or make available to their dealers a similar product or even a Superdeck product. They were very adamant that that would never happen. Very adamant. 

Sorry about the rant but I'm slow as crap this afternoon.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Woodford said:


> It's not leaving money on the table if it potentially costs you money or referrals in the future. It's nice that you think you should take every job, but as you mature as a business owner (assuming you are one) you'll come to understand. You can ask how many guys here got burned by jobs that they shouldn't have taken; the answer is almost all of them who've been doing it for a while.
> 
> Further, it's a bit naïve to think that just because your warranty says something that means people won't blame you for it. We've all seen that that's not true. And further still, if you painted a coating onto something that doesn't work and isn't meant to be coated over (like the Restore-esque products) then maybe you _should_ be held accountable for it.


I should clarify, I don't think you should take every job, and I don't just hope my warranty terms cover me, because clients will still blame you, you're right. What I do is educate the customer, tell them this is what we can do, but just so you know, if the undercoating ever fails, I can't do anything about it. Then they won't blame me if it does. Never just walk away unless the client is too stubborn to be educated.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Gaco is solid because you prime it first with their system. I won't do straight Deck and Dock to bare wood anymore, it doesn't stick.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Main thing I would be worried about Damon would be exceeding max dft for eleasto.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Just type in "elastomeric deck stain complaints" and you'll get a bunch of them. As usual with the internet, only believe about 10% of those comments and complaints. When that 10% gets to be a couple of hundred legitimate complaints, you'll understand full well what woodford and I deal with on a daily basis. Those people are so fed up and upset that they rarely go back to the original retailer or call the original painter. They come to us, then we have to break the news to them.
> The coating you used sucks.
> You'll never be compensated for your time (that's in the "warranty")
> You'll play hell getting it off to use anything else
> ...


Thanks for all that. I think I forgot that VERY important distinction between concrete and wood applications.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Maybe they're not as common out East but in the NW two products, Spantex and Gaco-deck have been around a long time. They are designed to use as full waterproof deck systems over livable spaces even. Starting with a new plywood deck careful flashing and fiberglass taping is used with multiple layers to create a waterproof system. Much different than the thick deck restore products being sold now. I'm a little leery of Deck & Dock as its marketed in a similar vein as the other Restore type products. However I have one small deck we did last year and it gets blasted by the sun. Still looking good. Only a year though. I want something to last a long time without problems.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

The important thing is the Gaco underneath is sound, getting something to stick on top of it should be easy. Porch paint, solid stain, deck and dock would probably all work.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

AV Painting said:


> The important thing is the Gaco underneath is sound, getting something to stick on top of it should be easy. Porch paint, solid stain, deck and dock would probably all work.


Initial adhesion wouldn't be the problem; just have to make sure that the substrate is sound, and that whatever you put on can flex as much as the original coating, otherwise it's going to separate.



Just to add on to what PACman said, I talked to my BM rep about the Restore type coatings last week and he assured me BM would never touch them. The warning signs should be there for people- none of the decent quality manufacturers will touch these products with a 20-foot pole.

Cabot's come out with a coating like this now. Say it's their best selling product and they can't make it fast enough. Their reps were trying to ply it on me the other day. I grilled them about the tech details of the product, which of course they had no idea about. Didn't have an answer for me about what happened to the moisture that was entrapped. Know what their biggest selling point to me was? "Oh, but you don't have to buy a special roller cover for it like that _aweful_ Restore product."

I was like, "gentlemen, if you think the roller covers were problem with Restore, we have nothing else to discuss."


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Initial adhesion wouldn't be the problem; just have to make sure that the substrate is sound, and that whatever you put on can flex as much as the original coating, otherwise it's going to separate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And to add to this, Krylon pulled their version out of their warehouses when they found out the underlying reason for the 90% failure rate. They took a multi-million dollar hit scraping the whole line before they released it. Not to mention a huge disposal charge for the thousands of gallons they had already produced and labeled. If anybody wants to go neck and neck product wise with Rustoleum, it would be Krylon, as they have been each others' primary competition for decades. The fact that Krylon said "no way" to the product tells me all I need to know.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Initial adhesion wouldn't be the problem; just have to make sure that the substrate is sound, and that whatever you put on can flex as much as the original coating, otherwise it's going to separate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, when I used the original Synta Restore and It failed the first time, their customer service rep asked me if I used the roller cover that came with it. And, he asked me if I could prove I used it! Do you believe that crap? If you don't use their specific cover and are able to PROVE you used it they would void the warranty! So tell me, how can you prove 8 months after the fact that a particular roller cover was used? The warranty specifically states "when applied according to label instructions", and the instructions specifically say that you must use their roller cover that's how!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm sure that's all about film thickness. Still I agree with your thoughts on using it on a wood deck.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

AV Painting said:


> I should clarify, I don't think you should take every job, and I don't just hope my warranty terms cover me, because clients will still blame you, you're right. What I do is educate the customer, tell them this is what we can do, but just so you know, if the undercoating ever fails, I can't do anything about it. Then they won't blame me if it does. Never just walk away unless the client is too stubborn to be educated.


That's a good plan; apologies if I misread your post before. I'm a big fan of educating customers, it makes a better world for everyone.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

DrakeB said:


> Initial adhesion wouldn't be the problem; just have to make sure that the substrate is sound, and that whatever you put on can flex as much as the original coating, otherwise it's going to separate.


Good point. Better to stick with elastomeric on elastomeric


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