# Need Advice on Removing Latex Paint From Deck



## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

Howdy!
My first post here.
I got corralled into working on a friend of a friend's deck. It is PT pine 14 x 19 upper deck and 14 x 14 lower, as show in the attached photo. The previous homeowners foolishly used is what I think is acrylic latex house paint on the deck. I do mostly drywall finishing and interior painting, but even I know a penetrating semitransparent or transparent stain should have been used. The paint comes off on a rag with acetone, so it' nearly certain it's a latex. Sodium Hydroxide mixed very strong does NOT attack it very much. The pressure washer with the NaOH got most off by brute force (not enough to rough up the wood though) simply because the paint was failing (no small wonder there though, and thank God too!). But it also got rid of the grays and mildew/mold. I will replace a number of wornout boards but it looks like only about 10% of the flat area. The rails will be handled by just replacing the spindles as they are relatively cheap and the top rails replaced as they are beat to death by the sun/weather, so that simplifies a lot of headaches there. (I ain't refinishin' all those spindles!)
So now what about the other 90% of the flats: 
1) I could use something like Citristrip, I suppose (they don't want methylene chloride). But there's still large areas though, I will take forever it seems. 
2) Rent a vibrating flat plate sander, one of my paint contractor friends suggested. looks like almost all the deck screws are sunk down good below surface (which incidentally will also make board replacement a PIA)
3) a combination of 1) and 2)
Where do you rent one of those sanders?

So it seems to me that a lot of Citristrip ( or the like) could be just as much money and time as the sander.
What is the best way to attack this problem? 
I already suggested replacing all the boards but the answer was to avoid this if at all possible.
I've never dealt with anything like this before, but I know there's probably a few good approaches out there.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

You'll have to sand it somewhat regardless of which way you do it. Personally, I'd highly recommend doing a big sander. It shouldn't take terribly long for that size deck and you'll get a better finish for it in the end.

That being said, I'm just a vendor so I'm not out in the field doing it day in/day out. One of the deck guys will hopefully pop by and give you a few words of advice as well.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

There ARE citrus & soy-based strippers which could work, but are very expensive. Which product did you use that had Sodium Hydroxide in it? At what strength did you try it and how was it applied?

More than likely, if methylene chloride isn't an option, the remaining choices will contain some form of sodium hdroxide.
Powersolve DSI is a stripper which can be downstreamed. It's fast & effective.
HD80 can also be effective when stripping acrylic stains, but not always, and it has to be applied either by brush or pump-up sprayer.

Research, "boosting HD80 with butyl cellulosive".

You can also look into potash flakes or caustic soda beads, both of which are NaOh based.

This job is going to be a nightmare. Most deck guys I know would RUN from this job. The caustic nature of these strippers makes for a dangerous work environment, so proper clothing & eye protection must be used at all times. The additional element of working overhead on that elevated deck is just icing on the cake...be careful and do your homework. Might wanna seriously considering deferring this job to a pro who specializes in wood restoration, (if you can find one...they are a dwindling breed).

As a side note, if you decide to take on this time-hog of a job, take your initial figure that you had planned to charge and multiply it by 4. Not joking.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

I've done two of these in the last 14 years. Both times the customers didn't want caustic strippers used so both times I rented the vibrating sander. I spent all day with 36 grit simply trying to sand out the crowns and cups. When I finally got it 80% I switched to 60, then to 80 grit. I then had to follow with my 5 inch random orbit sander to get all the low spots. Followed again with my Festool RO 90 with the delta extension to get under the handrail. Some scraping was also necessary. After that it was a breeze.

I feel your pain.

Good luck.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.
NaOH was mixed 4 lbs into a 2 gal pump sprayer. That's pretty damn strong (This is pure NaOH, USP)- I'd be willing to bet stronger than HD80 judging from the MSDS. No butyl alcohol or anything like that, of course. Problem is, I think that very concentrated NaOH wil not attack acrylic latex paint effectively - maybe stain but I'm sure it has not much of an effect on this paint. You can leave it on for 1/2 hr. 45 min, but not that much will come off.
I can try leaving it on overnight I guess. Can't hurt to try.

**I'm finding the name to be: butyl _Cellosolve_ from the chemistrystore.com 
How much do you use in a two gallon pump srayer containing the NaOH?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Soda Blast


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Time hog is an understatement. Decks like this are a nightmare. The last time I did a deck like this, the customer probably could have replaced the decking for the price they paid. They didn't want to do that, in spite of the fact that I told them it was going to be horribly expensive to strip, etc.

I'm at the point where I don't even want to touch decks anymore. After 6 years, I haven't even applied ANYTHING to my own deck because around here I know whatever I put on is going to fail and I also know there's no way I'm doing yearly maintenance to my own deck.

My deck is for relaxing, throwing the ball for my dog... Not working. Wait till boards fail. Replace.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

With the amount of time, energy, material, and money it will take, talk your friend into the natural way.

Let nature take it's course. It should be fully devoid of paint in about two years if you just sit by and watch it - with an adult beverage in your hand. :thumbsup:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

daArch said:


> With the amount of time, energy, material, and money it will take, talk your friend into the natural way.
> 
> Let nature take it's course. It should be fully devoid of paint in about two years if you just sit by and watch it - with an adult beverage in your hand. :thumbsup:



Could be a relaxing process, like watching paint dry.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I am doing a deckover job about the same size. Cant wash or strip it as its a boathouse. Carbide scrapers, Step puller, and a 6 amp Dewalt ROS with Shopsmith 40 60 and 80 grit sandpaper. The Dewalt is a beast. Not great for spindles and detailed stuff but makes quick work on deckboards. Not as fast as a drum sander but does a better job.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

No way you are getting that off. You may get the floor with application after application of stripper then sanding but they own those spindles. Paint = ruined deck. Your best outcome would be two toning if you can strip the floor.. semi trans on floor (good luck under those rails) and the rails done in white solid stain or paint. 

Count me as a proficient deck pro that would run.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

The spindles you just replace since they cost only a little. Same with the top board on the rails. Not that expensive. It's the floor where the headache is.

I thought of pulling up the salavgeable boards and running them through a jointer, but that will make them thinner than the replacements. So that Idea is out.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

That deck is a piece of crap 
Seriously why would u not just prep it good and slap two coats of a solid deck stain 
Then plan on maintaining it 
This deck is not worthy of a clear or anything close to it


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

Phinnster said:


> That deck is a piece of crap
> Seriously why would u not just prep it good and slap two coats of a solid deck stain
> Then plan on maintaining it
> This deck is not worthy of a clear or anything close to it


Who said anything about a clear? you're afda.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

But wait. Your client is removing the solid latex to do what?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

If it were my deck, if it were my client's deck, I would scrape the loose paint and put a solid stain in same color on top.

Year after year repeat/touchup as needed.

You/your client will need to do that with whatever new finish you/they choose after you get done with all this mess that you/they have decided is necessary.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

It's PT pine, after all. Not teak.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

The color remaining is the problem and the fact that it's latex house paint.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

What makes you think the existing coating is latex house paint and not a latex porch and floor?


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

The owner found a can in the garage (from previous homeowner) and the color is very close as we are able to tell. Can reads Behr acrylic latex. Doesn't prove that IT IS house paint (maybe the color just happens to be very close). At the same time an acetone test says that it is extremely likely it latex. Thirdly in my previous posts I mentione damn strong NaOH will not budge it hardly. That seems to point at house paint and not opaque stain, IMHO.
Even if it were latex porch and floor I'm pretty sure the same problem: how do you get it off because the color is a problem (and that NaOH probably won't attack latex porch and floor paint either)


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

applejak_2000 said:


> The spindles you just replace since they cost only a little. Same with the top board on the rails. Not that expensive. It's the floor where the headache is.
> 
> *I thought of pulling up the salavgeable boards and running them through a jointer, but that will make them thinner than the replacements. So that Idea is out.*


You stated in OP that you were only replacing 10% of the boards.

And now you say you are willing to pull up all 90% of salvageable boards, and you are willing to run all 90% through a jointer (not a planer?) … but where you draw the line is running the remaining 10% new stock through said jointer to match everything up?

I don't understand.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

I considered that- running the 10% through as well. The idea was not rejected on that basis alone. It's what is involved in doing so - a lot of work. secondly you wouldn't need a planer (and I have a sweet Makita) because you really just need to joint that ugly face and a jointer won't have the same possible snipe problem and not to mention, is easier to setup. I'm still weighing the jointer (not really rejected yet as an idea), just want to see if there may be another way yet.
There was one other nagging cosideration: in the future, any replacement boards would be thicker than all those run through the jointer. Meaning if they ever repaired in the future they'd have to joint the boards to match.
I could just try a 1/32" see how that looks on just one board though. A 1/32" isn't that noticable in terms of the original thickness, I think.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

......Or I could listen to this retarded suggestion:


Phinnster said:


> That deck is a piece of crap
> Seriously why would u not just prep it good and slap two coats of a solid deck stain ....This deck is not worthy of a clear or anything close to it


 [my underline emphasis.]
Nice!
Undoubtedly didn't bother to think of the blotches that will occur by "slapping on two coats of solid stain" over the latex (which incidentally WE"RE TRYING TO REMOVE!!) and all the inherent problems in doing that. Not to mention since the color of offending latex is not acceptable, how well will the solid stain (of the desired color) cover that you are going to "slap on"?
"Prep it good"? How about removing the offending latex and you "prep it good" BY DEFAULT! Doesn't seem to have any idea how to do that, of course. Jeeze. About as helpful as a screen door on a submarine, and equally as bright in the idea department.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Let's work together!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

applejak_2000 said:


> ......Or I could listen to this retarded suggestion:
> [my underline emphasis.]
> Nice!
> Undoubtedly didn't bother to think of the blotches that will occur by "slapping on two coats of solid stain" over the latex (which incidentally WE"RE TRYING TO REMOVE!!) and all the inherent problems in doing that. Not to mention since the color of offending latex is not acceptable, how well will the solid stain (of the desired color) cover that you are going to "slap on"?
> "Prep it good"? How about removing the offending latex and you "prep it good" BY DEFAULT! Doesn't seem to have any idea how to do that, of course. Jeeze. About as helpful as a screen door on a submarine, and equally as bright in the idea department.


In all honesty that retarded suggestion is the only cost effective coarse of action. 

Solid stain looks like flat paint and IS latex so it will not appear blotchy. Scrape and sand anything loose and go with two coats of Sherwin Williams Super deck, maintenance as needed. 

Here's a pic of one I did yesterday. It had multiple coats of built up latex semi-transparent stain. I ran my Festool RO150 with 60grit over it to get a good amount off then two coats of solid. 










Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

I would scrape and sand lightly with 60 or 80 grids, Put BM fresh start tinted oil primer let it dry a couple of days than go with a solid deck stain. It will look decent.
I wouldn't spend that much money on this deck.
Good luck.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Apple
My suggestion is retarded Hugh ?
We do at least twenty five decks s year 

This is not a retarded suggestion 
Thanks


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

It may very well turn out that solid stain has to be used. The HO will not like it too much. I'm still looking to see if there isn't a way, since the HO really wants a stain that does not have appearance of a paint, let alone (red !) paint. That may not be possible, unless almost all the floor board are replaced. Oddly the vast majority of the railings except the posts DO NOT have the red latex. How that came to be I have no idea.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> I would scrape and sand lightly with 60 or 80 grids, Put BM fresh start tinted oil primer let it dry a couple of days than go with a solid deck stain. It will look decent.
> I wouldn't spend that much money on this deck.
> Good luck.


Is that primer labeled to be walked on??


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Is that primer labeled to be walked on??


It's not, I don't see why you can't.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> It's not, I don't see why you can't.


I was always told to never oil prime a floor. I don't know the reasons behind it but I do know some primers like Coverstain say not to on the can.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

applejak_2000 said:


> It may very well turn out that solid stain has to be used. The HO will not like it too much. I'm still looking to see if there isn't a way, since the HO really wants a stain that does not have appearance of a paint, let alone (red !) paint. That may not be possible, unless almost all the floor board are replaced. Oddly the vast majority of the railings except the posts DO NOT have the red latex. How that came to be I have no idea.


If she doesn't want red have her pick another color. :blink:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I was always told to never oil prime a floor. I don't know the reasons behind it but I do know some primers like Coverstain say not to on the can.


My understanding has always been that primers do not dry to the same "firmness" as floor paints, thus if torquing, dragging stuff, etc. occurs the paint would get torn off when the primer did.

However, that's just what I was told when I started out and I've stuck with that ever since. Guy who told me is an incredibly knowledgeable guy so I never had any reason to question him.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

How old is that deck? Many times when this situation comes up I'll sit down with the customer and explain in detail the amount of labor involved to bring it back to new LOOKING wood. I'll emphasize that, after all that time and money, it's still an OLD deck. It would make much more sense to pull up all the boards, reboard it, possibly with higher grade wood, apply a good oil semi trans and they'll be thrilled by the results.

The idea of pulling up all the boards to plane or joint (planing would be much easier) makes no sense to me. It's way too time consuming, you'll damage the boards trying to remove old fasteners and you'll ruin planer blades as they melt the paint.

Time to get some sample boards of kdat pt, ipe, cedar, tigerwood etc with some oil samples on them, and even some man mades. They'll drool over the prospect of a beautiful new deck.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I had to strip a deck in a very similar situation to this one a few years ago at a cottage. Deck was only a few years old, but the guy who built it painted it with porch and floor that wasn't meant to be used in non covered areas. Since it snows sideways here, it sat with several feet of snow on it all winter.

I explained that the process would be incredibly labour intensive and would cost a fortune and would be better to simply replace the decking. They couldn't get through the idea of replacing and had me go ahead with stripping and restaining. Probably cost them 3X what it would have to simply replace the decking boards.

People never, ever follow through on the concept that decks require annual maintenance, or recoating every few years. They'd rather just complain.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

I thought if you add paint thiner to the primer will make it penetrate and dry completely.
But again I learn new stuff every day thanks to PT and you guys.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

Rbriggs82 said:


> If she doesn't want red have her pick another color. :blink:


 Well, the HO are trying to avoid solid stain that, to them, looks like paint in general, not just that it's red


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

From what I can tell the deck is maybe 10 years old. Built during the previous HO, not the current ones. Hard to say, probably > 5, but < 10. The previous HOs did not tell them when it was built. I would have liked an accurate answer on that too, had I been able to get one.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> I thought if you add paint thiner to the primer will make it penetrate and dry completely.
> But again I learn new stuff every day thanks to PT and you guys.


you telling me I was actually helpful?:smartass:


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

This week I'm going to try a little 60 grit sandpaper on the RO sander and see what that does in a small area. Might as well try it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

applejak_2000 said:


> This week I'm going to try a little 60 grit sandpaper on the RO sander and see what that does in a small area. Might as well try it.


I started a similar thread a few months ago, think it was titled "deck stripping".
Same situation you're facing, PT pine deck with multiple coats of solid color deck stain and customer wanted to strip and coat with a semi-trans stain. That deck is now in the process of being reboarded. 

Just my opinion, but with a PT pine deck of very much age at all, the process of stripping and prepping such a deck to accept a semi-trans stain is false economy. 

We have a few here at PT that I think of as the masters of deck finishing and doctors11 is one of the best. Take his advice to heart. Also, If you can't trust a guy with a pic of Doc Watson for his avatar, you cain't trust nobody.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

You just made my night! :yes:


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

chrisn said:


> you telling me I was actually helpful?:smartass:


Absolutely :yes:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, have you up front come out and said "after labor and materials for stripping this whole deck, getting a new deck will not cost much (if any) more and it will look much better"? Since customers really, really don't want to here that you have to kind of be a little up front and bold about stuff like that.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you up front come out and said "after labor and materials for stripping this whole deck, getting a new deck will not cost much (if any) more and it will look much better"? Since customers really, really don't want to here that you have to kind of be a little up front and bold about stuff like that.


I've gotten better at this over the years. When I first started out I'd take on those nightmare paint jobs, which inevitably became my own nightmare and made you feel like a hack. At this point, I know when to say "you need a carpenter, not a painter".

Last year I was painting a cottage and the guy next door asked me to give him a price on his cottage. The thing was virtually unpaintable as there was so much rotten wood. I almost felt mean about it, but had to tell the guy he'd let the thing go to the point I wasn't even sure if it was structurally sound anymore.

He wasn't exactly happy with me telling him this, but why would you want to take on a job when there was absolutely no chance that the end product was going to even look halfway decent or be so cost prohibitive that simply replacing what's there would be a better idea.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> I started a similar thread a few months ago, think it was titled "deck stripping".
> Same situation you're facing, PT pine deck with multiple coats of solid color deck stain and customer wanted to strip and coat with a semi-trans stain. That deck is now in the process of being reboarded.
> 
> Just my opinion, but with a PT pine deck of very much age at all, the process of stripping and prepping such a deck to accept a semi-trans stain is false economy.
> ...


Everybody that ventures into exterior wood restoration has one (or more if stubborn) of these jobs under their belt. I did quite a few jobs where my labor bill exceeded my profit (or loss). You learn to be candid with people. There is a ton of profitable work out there and spinning wheels chasing nightmare jobs is absolutely a waste of time. With that said, not all old decks are a waste of time. I have some 30 yr old PTP decks that were maintained from back when everything was oil. 

The best thing anyone learns in business is when to fire bad customers and not take on dead end jobs.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PressurePros said:


> Everybody that ventures into exterior wood restoration has one (or more if stubborn) of these jobs under their belt. I did quite a few jobs where my labor bill exceeded my profit (or loss). You learn to be candid with people. There is a ton of profitable work out there and spinning wheels chasing nightmare jobs is absolutely a waste of time. With that said, not all old decks are a waste of time. I have some 30 yr old PTP decks that were maintained from back when everything was oil.
> 
> The best thing anyone learns in business is when to fire bad customers and not take on dead end jobs.


That's "sig line" worthy right there. :yes:


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Woodford said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you up front come out and said "after labor and materials for stripping this whole deck, getting a new deck will not cost much (if any) more and it will look much better"? Since customers really, really don't want to here that you have to kind of be a little up front and bold about stuff like that.


 When I first started years ago I was a little hesitant about that conversation but after years of doing it it's pretty easy now. I actually love to reboard decks and rebuild handrails, especially if they choose some better products so I don't mind either decision. If they really can't afford all new product, I understand and do the best I can with what they've got. Their education and the way you present it is the key. Walk firmly but gently...if that makes any sense (grasshopper)...


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> We have a few here at PT that I think of as the masters of deck finishing and doctors11 is one of the best. Take his advice to heart. Also, If you can't trust a guy with a pic of Doc Watson for his avatar, you cain't trust nobody.


 I just got back from visiting my parents (90 and 92) up in Virginia and wanted to say a few things. 

First, thanks again to Slinger for the very kind words. It's funny how, as the years go by, you kind of slip into the "elder statesman" category. I have never considered myself an expert at anything. When reading hundreds of posts over the years by people like Ken (Pressure Pros), I know how amazingly lacking I still am in wood refinishing knowledge.

Still, if I'm honest with myself, I do realize that I've learned an immense amount from Painttalk, reading, talking, making mistakes, and good ol' experience. 

I figure, at almost 57 years of age, if there's anything I can "pay forward" to the younger generations to help them out I'll gladly do it.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

applejak_2000 said:


> Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.
> NaOH was mixed 4 lbs into a 2 gal pump sprayer. That's pretty damn strong (This is pure NaOH, USP)- I'd be willing to bet stronger than HD80 judging from the MSDS. No butyl alcohol or anything like that, of course. Problem is, I think that very concentrated NaOH wil not attack acrylic latex paint effectively - maybe stain but I'm sure it has not much of an effect on this paint. You can leave it on for 1/2 hr. 45 min, but not that much will come off.
> I can try leaving it on overnight I guess. Can't hurt to try.
> 
> ...


It IS Butyl Cellosolve. That's the 2nd time I've typed Cellulosive. It's 2-Butoxyethanol. Too many factors to give you exact proportions. I was using Hydrox beads @ 3:1 Hydrox/Butyl per 5 Gal mix, (3 cups hydrox and 1 cup butyl). None of this is set in stone and I'm not an expert with these anyways, just learning as I go for the past few years, and doing a ton of reading. 

Just FYI, Glycol based additives can work well with HD 80. Pretty sure the one I used is 633-ADD, (although if that's not right, someone please correct me). Propylene Glycol can be found in some antifreeze, NOT to be confused with Ethylene Glycol, which is way more toxic than Propylene, and can also be found in some antifreeze.


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## applejak_2000 (Jun 10, 2015)

Woodford said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you up front come out and said "after labor and materials for stripping this whole deck, getting a new deck will not cost much (if any) more and it will look much better"? Since customers really, really don't want to here that you have to kind of be a little up front and bold about stuff like that.


Thanks for all your help everyone!
Well it turns out I convinced them to have the deck replaced (someone else doing it). I told them: the wood is 8-10 yrs old, the cost of stripping the wood (old wood at that) exceeds the cost of new wood! And you'd still be left with 8-10 yr old wood, which 8-10 years from now will then be 20 yr. old wood!! There's no sense in it! They agreed.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Congrats and well done. Definitely a smart decision on your part and on theirs in my humble opinion.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

You'll never catch me doing deck work unless it's solid. In my opinion it's to hard to make money with semi transparent because it's too labor intensive with the prep work. I've wasted to much time working on bids for this type of work. If it's solid I sand oil prime tinted to the color then stain using arbor coat.


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