# Painting a stained ceiling.



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

A customer wants this ceiling painted (see pic). Can I use a latex primer like Fresh Start or do I have to use oil or Bin or the stain. There is nothing on top over the stain. I beleive that I did something like this on exterior trim once and used latex, but my memory is failing me.

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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

A good latex primer should do just fine. Talk to your rep about a bonding primer. And I would also give the entire ceiling a good stuff down. You shouldn't have any problems.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I would use BIN but I am biased towards it. Esp since that looks like pine. Coverstain would work. I have used 123 on rough sawn beams stained dark without any problems. If you use BIN then you can rest assured and finish in one day. Prob have to use two coats of topcoat if light color. That much surface area with BIN will gas the whole house unless you create a neg priessure out one of those windows. Good luck.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'd go with BIN on that too. I'm done getting burnt by latex primers. It's Bin, coverstain, or nothing on most of my jobs that need to be primed. 

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

How do you guys apply bin on such a large surface?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

I've done miles of stained wood with a coat of gripper/sealgrip and then two coats of quality finish coat and never ran into a problem. The closest thing I've ever run into being a problem was needing a second coat of gripper to fully hide the stain.

You couldn't pay me to use BIN unless I absolutely had to. Lol last time I used shellac I could barely walk in a straight line.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

If you use Bin or Coverstain on an area that big, warn the occupants of the noxious fumes so they may opt lo leave for a day or so.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

That's the reason we like it for the buzz! Kidding aside is is a PITA to use. It messes with my head when I just spot prime 2 or 3 feet out of a rattle can. This is not pleasant...you know its killing brain cells. Ventilation is the key to getting rid of the fumes, getting a fast cure and protecting yourself. Spraying is the only practical way of getting in on a surface that large. I isolate work area from rest of house ventilate good, and use a respirator. If ventilation is good smell is gone in 2-3 hr and you are ready to spray topcoat. Adhesion and stain blocking are about as close to 100 percent as you can get. It is a much bigger PITA to do it all over... I use the box fan with ac filter method to create negative pressure, seal up room and make a couple holes in plastic to create draft across work area. Same method I use for cabinet frames. May have to use two box fans to get enough ventilation. Watch where your fan is blowing. You may get a little dryfall through cheap ac filters. Probably overkill but I get burnt seems like everytime I shortcut process. Sometimes several years later with peeling and/or bleed thru.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

PaPainter:. I definitely hear you about BIN. Guess I have learned to deal with it...I will try your method next time I have something of mine to experiment on... What topcoat would you use if you were going back white? Are you rolling?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ive had great success with spraying, rolling and brushing. Like I said, I use Gripper or Sealgrip because it bonds very well and it almost forms a shell over the stain. As for topcoats, it really depends on the customer. I'm pretty spoiled because I only use California Paints (formerly Muralo) Ultra aquaborne ceramic paint for trim. It's by far the best trim paint in my opinion. A little pricey but not unreasonably so. If you can't use that (or they don't want a sheen) I've had great luck with PPG pure performance or their Manor Hall lines. Speedhide is okay but that's going a bit more into the commercial side where price is king. I'm sure you use good paint, so anything that you like from one of the big brands works. Only brand I'm not a fan of for their whites is Sherwin Williams because their whites have a blue tint to them.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

If use bin or coverstain. And a respirator. I don't like questioning whether or not something will seal or bond. The answer is yes with either of these products. And we're painters. We get paid to do the stinky stuff nobody else wants to do....lol

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Going over stain, I would never trust a waterborne stain blocker. I would use BIN, cuz its easier to deal with than other oils.


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

Anyone try this yet?

https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/smart-prime


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Ubercorey said:


> Anyone try this yet?
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/smart-prime


Seen it, but have not tried it.

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> If use bin or coverstain. And a respirator. I don't like questioning whether or not something will seal or bond. The answer is yes with either of these products. And we're painters. We get paid to do the stinky stuff nobody else wants to do....lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I know either will work. I hate using Bin on ceilings becasue it is so watery and tends to make a huge mess. I just used Coverstain in a bathroom and I was not happy with results. Uses it to block the knots in pine on shiplap. But, the finish was very ropey, even after a good sanding.

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I know either will work. I hate using Bin on ceilings becasue it is so watery and tends to make a huge mess. I just used Coverstain in a bathroom and I was not happy with results. Uses it to block the knots in pine on shiplap. But, the finish was very ropey, even after a good sanding.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Tried BM 024?


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

If you're top coating it in anything other than a deep base color you should avoid using a water based primer. The wood tannin will stain through that stuff like crazy. Coverstain, Shellac, or any other oil based primer will work. Or maybe just use an oil based paint. If it were my job I would either brush/roll or spray coverstain. Just remember that brushing or rolling that stuff leaves heavy stipple and brush strokes because it's a modern alkyd oil.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Smart Prime TDS*



Ubercorey said:


> Anyone try this yet?
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/zinsser/primer-sealers/smart-prime


Here is the TDS for Smart Prime:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...nglish/CBG/Zinsser/SPM-01_SmartPrime_TDS.ashx

If I were to use Smart Prime alone, I would probably let it dry overnight and/or do 2 coats of it, just for experimental purposes, that is. If I did not want to experiment or take the word of several others here, I would put 2 coats of BIN on and rest assured that there will be no knots bleeding through.

futtyos


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

I've had Bin fail to adhere to surfaces. Anything can fail under the right conditions, but there's a lot of misinformation about latex paints and how reliable they are. 

My paint rep has a degree in chemistry/chemical engineering and I used to be like most of you guys not trust latex primers to stick. But he schooled me on theory of adhesion. There are three types of adhesion: penetration, chemical and mechanical (abrasion). As long as you have two out of those three, you're in good shape.

With latex primers they are created to make a chemical bond, but they don't always form a penetrative bond with oil based paints because of low surface energy. However, if you take an abrasive, i.e. sandpaper and lightly sand the surface it will allow the paint to form a mechanical bond by interlocking the surfaces. As long as the primer itself has good cohesion (tensile strength) in which the case of Gripper and SealGrip they do, then it will stick with no problems. I've never had them fail on me after proper prep, and the worst issue I've ever encountered was needing a second coat of primer to make sure there was no color bleed through and that was only on a really difficult stain. If you guys are interested in more info on adhesion I have some links I could post up. 

The only reason I'm personally making such a defense of latex is I know how awful shellac is to work with and I worry about long term health effects and would rather see my fellow painters live a long, prosperous life.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Cracks*



Pete Martin the Painter said:


> A customer wants this ceiling painted (see pic). Can I use a latex primer like Fresh Start or do I have to use oil or Bin or the stain. There is nothing on top over the stain. I beleive that I did something like this on exterior trim once and used latex, but my memory is failing me.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Are you caulking or filling in the cracks?

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It does look like Pine. It’s notorious for bleeding, especially around the knots. I too would play it safe and use Bin or Coverstain. Would hate to have to prime it a second time after a waterbased primer failed - something that once happened to me when I decided to give one of the man made “shellac” primers a try over nicotine stained walls and ceilings - never again.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

If it’s just stained wood with no finish then I don’t think adhesion is going to be a problem. Maximum stain blocking is what’s needed. 

I have used the Smart Prime on a pine trim job and it did work that time. Two coats and an overnight dry is recommended for max blocking IIRC. 

Pine knots are notorious for bleeding. I’ve seen them come through both Bin and Coverstain over time. 

Bin shellac might be your best bet, but even it isn’t fool proof. I’ve had bleed through when using Bin on a few oak cabinet jobs, and so have others here. There have been a few threads on this forum about Bin failure. 

It failed me just this past week on some nicotine (I assume) staining. Sprayed all the trim, walls and ceilings in an old house with a heavy coat of Bin. The primer film looked fine but when I top coated it bled like crazy. Had to go back and prime most of it again with Coverstain. 











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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

futtyos said:


> Are you caulking or filling in the cracks?
> 
> futtyos


Yes!

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Assume you realize that many, if not all of those knots are also going to have all sorts of cracks around, or radiating out from them. Trying to caulk all of those is going to be... fun. Maybe using some sort of filler that can be applied with a large bladed putty knife might work out better? Just a thought.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Assume you realize that many, if not all of those knots are also going to have all sorts of cracks around, or radiating out from them. Trying to caulk all of those is going to be... fun. Maybe using some sort of filler that can be applied with a large bladed putty knife might work out better? Just a thought.


I only have seen guys using it for exterior but elastomeric knife grade patching compound...


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

RH said:


> Assume you realize that many, if not all of those knots are also going to have all sorts of cracks around, or radiating out from them. Trying to caulk all of those is going to be... fun. Maybe using some sort of filler that can be applied with a large bladed putty knife might work out better? Just a thought.


The HO, luckily, told me that she does not want them filled. Just the gaps between the boards filled.

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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I would use cover stain or bin to be safe. If you are going to use waterbased the Smart prime that was mentioned early is actually really good. I have used it when homeowners will not allow oil and it has worked but I dont trust it 100% especially around knots. 

It worked on the jobs I used it on at least until I left. I have not had call backs about bleed through but I also warned them by not letting me use oil I could not be responsible for it so it may have and they did not call me.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Pete, you bought a sprayer right? If so, bag the room suite up, and spray that ceiling twice with BIN, make sure to get the knooks and cranies, have a rattle can or 2 with you.

Let it dry over night (it'll only take an hour or 2 to really dry) then spray away

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

journeymanPainter said:


> Pete, you bought a sprayer right? If so, bag the room suite up, and spray that ceiling twice with BIN, make sure to get the knooks and cranies, have a rattle can or 2 with you.
> 
> Let it dry over night (it'll only take an hour or 2 to really dry) then spray away
> 
> Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk


I still haven't bought a sprayer yet. Kind of wishing that I had one for this job.

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> I would use cover stain or bin to be safe. If you are going to use waterbased the Smart prime that was mentioned early is actually really good. I have used it when homeowners will not allow oil and it has worked but I dont trust it 100% especially around knots.
> 
> It worked on the jobs I used it on at least until I left. I have not had call backs about bleed through but I also warned them by not letting me use oil I could not be responsible for it so it may have and they did not call me.


About six years ago I used Smart prime on a set of dark stained cabinets prior to painting. They bled through like crazy. Unless they have improved it's formula for this type of use, I think it's a crap shoot.




Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I still haven't bought a sprayer yet. Kind of wishing that I had one for this job.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Years ago I painted a rather large vaulted ceiling that was stained tongue and groove. That job is the one I credited with my eventually having to have neck surgery a few years later. I agree about spraying the sucker - this might be the time to invest in one.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Speaking about shellac.........*

I believe that this has been mentioned here at PT before, but it may bear bringing it up again. Shellac has a shelf life that may affect how it performs. Here is an article that discusses this:

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/...log/user-unfriendly-zinsser-bulls-eye-shellac

futtyos


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

futtyos said:


> I believe that this has been mentioned here at PT before, but it may bear bringing it up again. Shellac has a shelf life that may affect how it performs. Here is an article that discusses this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. Very interesting article. 
That would explain a lot. I’ve always heard the old timers mixed their own shellac from flakes and alcohol. 

I have some empty cans at the job site from this last batch. Wonder how old they are. 

Too bad shellac comes from a rather rare bug, and supply is limited. I imagine that factors into the decision to extend shelf life. The stuff costs $50-$70 a gallon already. If they scrapped old product earlier, it would be even more. 


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

RH I agree waterbased primers are not ideal at all for this. I only use them for stain blocking if the homeowner refuses oil or bin. I have actually turned down jobs because the homeowner would not let me use oil and this might be a job I would because I don't know that I would trust a waterbased.

I have used smart prime on two jobs and at least for a week it held back stains. Again I have not been called back but I told them I was not responsible if it bleed not sure that is the best way to handle it but they refused oil primers. To give it a fighting chance to hold back stains and tannins I did two coats of primer with 24 hrs dry time after each coat. I did not sand either coat of primer only after the first coat of finish I did a light sanding. I was afraid I would sand through the primer and compromise the stain blocking.

Good luck on the Project Pete I think it might be time for a entry level sprayer and have at it.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

A good deal of my painting is in my rentals which I treat better than my home. This provides me with the opportunity to see what happens over time. I too have seen BIN stain blocking failures to the point that I will most always spray two coats. I have never seen it fail to adhere. Peeling is unheard of. Ten years ago I painted a dirt cheap set of cabinets in a trailer. The end box was a china cabinet with a full length glass insert. Owner wanted it painted. Cleaned good with windex shot it twice with BIN, topped proclassic latex gloss. Got a peek at the job the other day. Good as the day I painted it. BIN odor will dissipate much faster than any oil, it will sand smooth, and can topcoat in a couple hours. As far as toxicity ethyl alcohol is a familiar chemical to most of us.....glycol ethers and all that stuff only PAC can pronounce is a huge question mark. I think you could classify shellac as a natural product.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> RH I agree waterbased primers are not ideal at all for this. I only use them for stain blocking if the homeowner refuses oil or bin. I have actually turned down jobs because the homeowner would not let me use oil and this might be a job I would because I don't know that I would trust a waterbased.
> 
> I have used smart prime on two jobs and at least for a week it held back stains. Again I have not been called back but I told them I was not responsible if it bleed not sure that is the best way to handle it but they refused oil primers. To give it a fighting chance to hold back stains and tannins I did two coats of primer with 24 hrs dry time after each coat. I did not sand either coat of primer only after the first coat of finish I did a light sanding. I was afraid I would sand through the primer and compromise the stain blocking.
> 
> Good luck on the Project Pete I think it might be time for a entry level sprayer and have at it.


At the time, Smart Prime was relatively new and was considered to be the bees knees, whatever the hell is special about those. I was using it on pretty much everything - and then along came that rather large set of cabinets. Long story short, I decided I would never use anything but BIN or an oil based primer on stained or raw wood, or badly stained walls and ceilings. About two years ago, I decided to break that rule and try a synthetic shellac primer. Got bit in the butt again so...


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Jmayspaint- Thanks for posting that pic of the BIN failure. I think I have seen that before. The brown spots getting through in a day or two. Through primer and finish. It was a cabinet job around the stove/hood area. Stained pine top coated with poly. Prepped normally by washing down with Dawn, scuff sand, one coat of BIN, 3 coats of Greneral Finishes white poly. 24 hr later a few little brown spots. Not all that bad but a little much for my standards. They were almost perfectly round and all about same size. I spot primed them with BIN and blended in topcoat. Next day a few more popped up in same area. Scuff sanded whole area two coat BIN from rattle can sand topcoat. Spots solved but what caused them. I think it was grease...If your problem is limited to that area I would lean more to a hinge lubricated with a sprayed lubricant such as WD-40 rather than nicotine. Just a thought that popped in my head.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Tprice2193 said:


> @Jmayspaint- Thanks for posting that pic of the BIN failure. I think I have seen that before. The brown spots getting through in a day or two. Through primer and finish. It was a cabinet job around the stove/hood area. Stained pine top coated with poly. Prepped normally by washing down with Dawn, scuff sand, one coat of BIN, 3 coats of Greneral Finishes white poly. 24 hr later a few little brown spots. Not all that bad but a little much for my standards. They were almost perfectly round and all about same size. I spot primed them with BIN and blended in topcoat. Next day a few more popped up in same area. Scuff sanded whole area two coat BIN from rattle can sand topcoat. Spots solved but what caused them. I think it was grease...If your problem is limited to that area I would lean more to a hinge lubricated with a sprayed lubricant such as WD-40 rather than nicotine. Just a thought that popped in my head.


I've had it happen on cabinets before. Not everywhere just weird random spots and they don't show until you've applied the finish paint.

The best solution I've found is to hit those spots with coverstain and that takes care of the problem. If I remember correctly that's how Jmays solved it too. 

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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Rbriggs82 - Thanks for the tip and confirmation of the problem. That problem made me wash a little more carefully and up the coverage with the BIN. Haven't seen them since. I am still waiting to try the Krud Kutter tsp substitute you mentioned in another post. Could probably spray that on and let it soak good. I still think its an oily substance, wax, or silicone.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

great time to buy a sprayer, i wouldnt attempt this job with a brush and roller if youre using bin. charge 2 to 3 times more than your go to ceiling price


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Nicotine or mold?*



Jmayspaint said:


> If it’s just stained wood with no finish then I don’t think adhesion is going to be a problem. Maximum stain blocking is what’s needed.
> 
> I have used the Smart Prime on a pine trim job and it did work that time. Two coats and an overnight dry is recommended for max blocking IIRC.
> 
> ...


Jmayspaint, is that nicotine bleeding through or mold? I have had nicotine bleed through, but it didn't look like this whereas mold does look like this. Shellac is from the laq beetle and would presumably provide food for any mold that is underneath. Perhaps there was mold on the oak trim that you couldn't see until priming? Just curious.

futtyos


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