# SW ProClassic Latex is an alkyd paint, whut?



## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

I recently accepted a job to repaint some very old and twice painted metal cabinets in a fine home. I took a drawer to the nearest SW and they matched the powder blue very well. Without testing we all assumed that they had a very slick coat of oil based paint on them. There was a lot of yellow on them and I was worried about blocking this or getting it off, so the guy behind the counter said, let me see if I can just wipe it off with some denatured alcohol since this wouldn't affect oil paint. Well, it turned out the second redo was just on the fronts of everything in a high quality latex and the rest was very glossy oil. It even appeared that he had varnished the backs of the doors at some point and this was yellowing some. I guess the yellow on the fronts of the doors and drawers, which was not on all of it, was cooking oil.

So, he tells me that the ProClassic waterbased stuff that I have been painting with for a long time does not need a primer that I can degloss-point and shoot. I called SW technical and they concurred!

Metal cabinets needing repainting does not come up too much for me and I have ALWAYS used some form of industrial enamel and recall on the last one, the fog from my hvlp got on my plastic covered flloor making it unpleasantly sticky etc. So I was ready to try this easier cleaner, greener method.

Does anybody have any first hand knowledge about ommitting primer and going over oil paint with ProClassic waterbased? :wallbash:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It's possible to get by with a good deglossing and cleaning agent like Krud Kutter and some scuff sanding but I personally prefer to also use a quality bonding primer (UMA by X-I-M is my preference) when switching from oil to latex.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I once accepted similar advice from the guy at the paint store, and he's a guy who is usually right. A week later I spent two days removing failed paint, priming, and re-painting the cabinets.........just sayin


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## double_cut (Aug 22, 2012)

How about pro classic HYBRID? The next best choice, next to a full alkyd. I would still prime though.

-Brian


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Are you going to listen to the guy behind the counter who sells paint or go with what the guy (youself) who puts in on already knows what needs to be done? Sand, degloss and prime.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Same old story.

Gamble with saving some time or doing a sure thing so that you don't have to worry.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Just a word of caution I shot some doors with Pro Classic in HVLP and was very disappointed with the results. Seems I had to thin so much for the HVLP. Let me clarify my HVLP is a really cheapo model. Finished with airless and everything was fine. Have read on here that 4 stage models will shoot it without thinning and some guys have used 3 stage with success. Don't know what you have but maybe want to try on something else first.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Advance covers better than PC.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

PC and many other hq acrylics will form a strong bond to properly cleaned, and sanded oil.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

This is true. I sanded, krudcuttered, rinsed and painted Ultra Spec semi (not a bad paint, but no one's idea of a super great one either) over oil baseboard, and 6 months later, that stuff is not coming off. Not with fingernail, x'd and blue taped, hardly even with a sharp 5in1. And Advance is a bit nicer than PC.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> Just a word of caution I shot some doors with Pro Classic in HVLP and was very disappointed with the results. Seems I had to thin so much for the HVLP. Let me clarify my HVLP is a really cheapo model. Finished with airless and everything was fine. Have read on here that 4 stage models will shoot it without thinning and some guys have used 3 stage with success. Don't know what you have but maybe want to try on something else first.


I never reduce PC latex, other than Flotrol for brushing.
I use a FF rac tip and my graco 395 because that stuff is thick!

Side story-

I sprayed some properly oil primed and sanded cabinets with PC latex and shot the unprepped formica back splash below it. We figured we'd be re-doing backsplashes later anyway. 4 years later, it is still there and passes the fingernail test.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I've put exterior acrylic over worn out, oxidized, industrial enamel and it bonded like crazy. Then again, I've seen old, interior oil that was so hard and slick that it was just daring you to try it. I think you just have to look at each job on it's own and use your best judgement.Most of the time a good prep job and bonding primer is worth the trouble.


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## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> Just a word of caution I shot some doors with Pro Classic in HVLP and was very disappointed with the results. Seems I had to thin so much for the HVLP. Let me clarify my HVLP is a really cheapo model. Finished with airless and everything was fine. Have read on here that 4 stage models will shoot it without thinning and some guys have used 3 stage with success. Don't know what you have but maybe want to try on something else first.


I sprayed the doors and drawers with a 413 tip and my airless yesterday---I know the bond will be good on the side that had previously been painted in latex. The backs and interiros of the drawers were solvent but we did a really really good job of sanding down the gloss, used some rust primer after heavy sanding those areas. I broke down and ordered an 5 stage HVLP which they say will have the power to atomize latex, but I had a 3 stage in the past and a couple of those el cheapos Gracos from LOWES ( OK for thinned StaysClear etc.) and they all had similar problems.........they will get their rig back if it does not perform as stated. Delivery got delayed because of the snow so we shall see. I am going to--I think-brush the cases except the bigger side panels because they do not want to take the stuff out---or I might try taping and using that taper I have that uses rolls of plastic and spraying, just depends on how good I can brush which is pretty damn good or when it arrives. Freaking ProClassic has gotten so damn expensive. I have to paint the refrigerator to match---I am probably going to use automotive paint for th


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

My Titan rep suggested spraying latex PC with the #5 cap and thin with one capful of xim extender to mostly full gun cup of paint. I can't confirm as I haven't sprayed it with hvlp. Always had great success shooting it with 310 & 312 ff tips.


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## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

double_cut said:


> How about pro classic HYBRID? The next best choice, next to a full alkyd. I would still prime though.
> 
> -Brian


Is there a special HYBRD one


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Damon T said:


> My Titan rep suggested spraying latex PC with the #5 cap and thin with one capful of xim extender to mostly full gun cup of paint. I can't confirm as I haven't sprayed it with hvlp. Always had great success shooting it with 310 & 312 ff tips.



As stated, that's the key is to get the right needle and nozzle for the material. I'd suggest using some Flotrol added into the mix. The reason why is if your spraying lighter coats (less material) the HVLP is going to blow air as well, drying things out quickly. I've had issues with PC before with touch-ups where the sheen doesn't come out the same, even though it's from the same bucket. So..it's crucial to get all the passes overlapped and done correctly the first time. Extend the drying time and it will all level out nicely. PC is awesome stuff! I'm using 10 gals of it now for some drywall in a house we're building. 

Good luck.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

woodcoyote said:


> As stated, that's the key is to get the right needle and nozzle for the material. I'd suggest using some Flotrol added into the mix. The reason why is if your spraying lighter coats (less material) the HVLP is going to blow air as well, drying things out quickly. I've had issues with PC before with touch-ups where the sheen doesn't come out the same, even though it's from the same bucket. So..it's crucial to get all the passes overlapped and done correctly the first time. Extend the drying time and it will all level out nicely. PC is awesome stuff! I'm using 10 gals of it now for some drywall in a house we're building.
> 
> Good luck.


That's exactly the problem I had was the air. Went to airless was happy with the results. My SW rep told me not to add Flotrol to PC as it already had the levelers in it and would self level. And to tell the truth on what I have brushed and rolled it seems like he was right. Maybe try and see.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

woodcoyote said:


> PC is awesome stuff! I'm using 10 gals of it now for some drywall in a house we're building.
> Good luck.


Man, I know what my price is on that stuff and I can't imagine using it on drywall, not that it wouldn't work, just expensive. What's the application?


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Has anyone used the ProMar200 enamel?


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## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

Rick the painter said:


> Advance covers better than PC.


Who makes that, Rick? I tried Aura once, but didn't like it too much. That is a BM paint.


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## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

woodcoyote said:


> As stated, that's the key is to get the right needle and nozzle for the material. I'd suggest using some Flotrol added into the mix. The reason why is if your spraying lighter coats (less material) the HVLP is going to blow air as well, drying things out quickly. I've had issues with PC before with touch-ups where the sheen doesn't come out the same, even though it's from the same bucket. So..it's crucial to get all the passes overlapped and done correctly the first time. Extend the drying time and it will all level out nicely. PC is awesome stuff! I'm using 10 gals of it now for some drywall in a house we're building.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks---I have had good luck in the past by adding a mix of water, XIM extender and floetrol and even a little water polyrueathane if it is not the top coat.

That Rustoleum water poly is a good product to spray through and HVLP but the satin finish is too opaque, the semi is fine.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

A+HomeWork said:


> Man, I know what my price is on that stuff and I can't imagine using it on drywall, not that it wouldn't work, just expensive. What's the application?


In this particular job I'm not using it for the whole house, it runs me around $29 a gallon, which is pretty steep for around here. The rest of the house is ProMar Zero VOC 400 for around $23 a gal.

The reason I'm using the enamel on the drywall is because we have some smooth texture and I felt that I'd get a better "feel/touch" factor by using some. I've used it on MDF and wood and it's come out pretty smooth to the touch, so I figured I'd go with what I know and shoot it on the primed drywall, make it look AND feel smooth. lol

We'll see how it turns out, I did a sample patch on the walls where the cabinets go and it looks/feels good, time to do the great room next week. I put it on kinda heavy so that might be another reason why it feels good lol.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Damn I must be getting ripped where I am pro classic runs me over $40 a gal.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I'm payin over $40 as well....I'm a little skeptical. You must be a high roller at SW


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm over $40 too, yet I would think pm 400 at $23 seems high. Not sure as I never buy the stuff, I go for the pm 200 0 voc if I'm using SW interior wall paint. My price for 200 ranges from 22-27 depending on sheen.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

PC is a styrene based paint. It may level great but has a gritty final "feel" to it sprayed. I never would consider it a wall paint. heck its hide is not all that stellar either. it performs for what I need it to do, but using a 40+ a gallon paint for walls is stupid when the alternatives are better. Unless the walls and trim are the same color and you are running and gunning to kick the job out. 

29 seems highly unlikely. But with SW, anything is possible.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> PC is a styrene based paint. It may level great but has a gritty final "feel" to it sprayed. I never would consider it a wall paint. heck its hide is not all that stellar either. it performs for what I need it to do, but using a 40+ a gallon paint for walls is stupid when the alternatives are better. Unless the walls and trim are the same color and you are running and gunning to kick the job out.
> 
> 29 seems highly unlikely. But with SW, anything is possible.



Really? I've never gotten a gritty feel when I've sprayed it, that's kind weird. It's always been smooth to me and everyone else that's felt it thinks it is pretty smooth to the touch. I just mix and strain. 

Yeah 29 is really close to their cost, at least my store's cost. One of the guys rang me up and even the manager thought it might be too low, but he checked and they are still making money, said it was like a dollar over their store cost. I'll try to post some receipts tonight when I get back from work. Gotta scan them in anyway for good 'ole Sam when the time comes lol.

Actually the house doesn't have any trim. It has shelves but those are going to be solid wood and stained. No baseboard or casing, which I think is good in some ways, bad in others.

Edit: Take that back it has baseboard just not painted/stained baseboard. It's all tile flooring.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Okay finally got back today ugh. :/ 

Found the receipts, just so no one claims I skipped out on anything. One purchase was $29/gal the other was $28.99/gal. Sorry about the size, the smaller version wouldn't show hardly any words/numbers.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Like you said, anything is possible with SW! Thanks for posting that. I've always thought PC was a nice paint. I used to shoot it with just.a little extender mixed in for fun with a 310 on trim and 410 on doors. Worked out really nice. Have been buying mostly BM for a while, so haven't used any lately. I tried their PC hybrid version once, but wasn't amazed, not like when I tried advance for the first time.


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## Painter One (Feb 5, 2012)

Damon T said:


> My Titan rep suggested spraying latex PC with the #5 cap and thin with one capful of xim extender to mostly full gun cup of paint. I can't confirm as I haven't sprayed it with hvlp. Always had great success shooting it with 310 & 312 ff tips.


After a long wait and just in time my 105 Titan Capspray showed up without a #5 despite my telling the saleman to be sure that I got the right projector set etc, and noting this I went to the sheet of paper and crossed my name out saying wiping out the contract but did some research and decided to go talk to the manager over the newbie sweet little thing assistant trainee. So we take the machine to the back and spray some latex he had --undiluted with a #4 setup and it looked pretty good. The Maxim 2 elite gun is a complete redesign from the one I got 14 years ago--a 3 stage unit. I knew that a three stage would struggle to spray latex. I showed up on the job without testing the ProClassic and it worked fine. I put a little more XIM in than what you said and maybe a little bit less paint too. I sprayed a lot like an airless with a fine finish tip--I was surprised at the power. So I guess I am happy---I will know tomorrow if the sheen is as good as the airless. Inside I was able to tweak the fluid tip and the air to basically make a big airbrush if needed, and I did need that since the wall paper was not coming down and was so old that I figured taping it at all would be impossible. :thumbsup:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Painter One said:


> After a long wait and just in time my 105 Titan Capspray showed up without a #5 despite my telling the saleman to be sure that I got the right projector set etc, and noting this I went to the sheet of paper and crossed my name out saying wiping out the contract but did some research and decided to go talk to the manager over the newbie sweet little thing assistant trainee. So we take the machine to the back and spray some latex he had --undiluted with a #4 setup and it looked pretty good. The Maxim 2 elite gun is a complete redesign from the one I got 14 years ago--a 3 stage unit. I knew that a three stage would struggle to spray latex. I showed up on the job without testing the ProClassic and it worked fine. I put a little more XIM in than what you said and maybe a little bit less paint too. I sprayed a lot like an airless with a fine finish tip--I was surprised at the power. So I guess I am happy---I will know tomorrow if the sheen is as good as the airless. Inside I was able to tweak the fluid tip and the air to basically make a big airbrush if needed, and I did need that since the wall paper was not coming down and was so old that I figured taping it at all would be impossible. :thumbsup:


Thanks for the update. Let me know how it looks tomorrow. Yes, you can use a spray shield and dial the fluid down low and not mask much. Make sure to get the #5 setup though.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

*2 things*

First-my shelf price on the PC is over $63, so I'm already $10 over before the discount. They had a sale last week and I was happy to get it for $40 something. $29 just blows my mind.

Anyway, to PainterOne, 

I consulted my rep about an hvlp that would move the PC latex lines and he suggested the 105 too, but what do you know about the Capspray 115? 

I am getting lots of interior kitchen a bath repaints/remodels and my 395 with ff tips just puts out too much. I love it in the NC jobs for doors and trim, though!!:yes:


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

How much are you guys buying your capsprays for? Looking online, I feel you'd be better suited with a 4 stage Fuji Gold. Sounds like a little vacuum cleaner, pretty quiet compared to others I've heard. Check it out, it's one of my champions, I use it for TONS of stuff!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

A+HomeWork said:


> First-my shelf price on the PC is over $63, so I'm already $10 over before the discount. They had a sale last week and I was happy to get it for $40 something. $29 just blows my mind.
> 
> Anyway, to PainterOne,
> 
> ...


Got my 115 with transfer pump which lets you shoot without the cup for $1500 plus tax at the SW pro show last year. I would get the 115 over the 105 because you can set it at 4 stage for thinner products, and 6 stage for thicker.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Damon T said:


> Got my 115 with transfer pump which lets you shoot without the cup for $1500 plus tax at the SW pro show last year. I would get the 115 over the 105 because you can set it at 4 stage for thinner products, and 6 stage for thicker.


I will be getting a quote tomorrow on the Titan hvlps.

Does $1175 sound good for the 105?

If so, do you think the 115 with transfer pump is worth $325 more?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

A+HomeWork said:


> I will be getting a quote tomorrow on the Titan hvlps.
> 
> Does $1175 sound good for the 105?
> 
> If so, do you think the 115 with transfer pump is worth $325 more?


I actually haven't even used my transfer pump other than testing it with water to see how it worked. I love how easy the cup gun is to clean up, and usually I'm not using more than 3 quarts per coat for the trim jobs I'm using it on. I never did put pump saver it after testing it, so hopefully it's not ruined now. 
I can't comment on whether the 105 would do the job. I have a feeling it would be fine. On the other hand it's nice having the two different stages on the 115. If you have it for 5 years that extra $325 doesn't seem to bad (spoken like a true salesman).


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