# PreCat Epoxy



## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm using SW ProIndustrial Precatalized waterbased epoxy on metal door frames and some corridors. I will also be using it on 38' tall columns in the lobby. I'm really impressed with this product. It brushed very well (better than Proclassic) covers great and has a nice finish. Any others used this coating? Thoughts?


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Andyman said:


> I'm using SW ProIndustrial Precatalized waterbased epoxy on metal door frames and some corridors. I will also be using it on 38' tall columns in the lobby. I'm really impressed with this product. It brushed very well (better than Proclassic) covers great and has a nice finish. Any others used this coating? Thoughts?


We have used a ton of it. It's one of the best latex paints I have used. It covers better than any other latex paint sw has including duration. The paint also touches up better than any paint sw offers. I used some very dark colors and was able to touch up without flashing. The only latex epoxy I would say is better is the tile clad as far as being durable.

On the other hand, I would never use latex pro classic. I think its the biggest junk paint. It doesn't hold up on frames and all it does is want to sag. Its also a pain to work with because it will dry too quick. I would still reccomend oil on any frames, steel columns, or whatever is going to take a beating. I think the pre cat would do okay on frames, but I would still be scared of them rusting out, unless they have already been painted with latex or primed.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

CHARACTERISTICS
Pro Industrial Pre-Catalyzed Water-based
Epoxies are revolutionary, single-component
pre-catalyzed waterborne acrylic epoxies that
offers the adhesion, durability and resistance
to stains and most cleaning solvents usually
characteristic of two-component waterborne
acrylic epoxy products.
These products are low in VOC, have a very
mild odor, and can be applied over a wide
variety of primers on properly prepared interior
metal, wood, masonry, plaster and drywall.
• Interior institutional/commercial high maintenance
areas
• Upgrade surfaces painted with conventional
coatings with a high performance
protection system with excellent adhesion
• Corrosion and Chemical resistant
• Hospitals and Schools
• Institutional dining and kitchen areas
• Suitable for use in USDA inspected
facilities
Color: most colors
Recommended Spread Rate per coat:
4.0 mils wet; 1.5 mils dry
350 - 400 sq ft/gal
NOTE: Brush or roll application may require multiple
coats to achieve maximum film thickness and
uniformity of appearance.
Drying Time @ 4.0 mils wet 50% RH:
temperature and humidity dependent
Touch: 1 hour
Recoat: 8 hours
Drying time is temperature, humidity, and film thickness
dependent.
Finish:
Eg-Shel 20 - 30 units @ 85°
Semi-Gloss 55 - 65 units @ 60°
Flash Point: N/A
Shelf Life: 36 months, unopened
Store indoors at 40°F to 100°F.
Tinting with Blend-A-Color:
Use SherCOLOR Formulation System
K45W00151
VOC (less exempt solvents):
141 g/L; 1.18 lb/gal
Volume Solids: 37 ± 2%
Weight Solids: 51 ± 2%
Weight per Gallon: 10.7 lb ± 0.2 lb



*Recoat in 8 hours is less than desirable and the multiple coats scares me a bit.*


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

We have to use waterbase on this job. Most frames are repaint and being scuff sanded and a few other will be new and primed. No problems with the build.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Andyman said:


> We have to use waterbase on this job. Most frames are repaint and being scuff sanded and a few other will be new and primed. No problems with the build.


We use to use a lot of pro classic. I just never liked it. I would use all surface enamel latex before it. With latex you get no coverage on your frames. You are usually painting them 3 or 4 times if you can't spray them. I have also seen pro classic rust out on frames. Before you know it, you wont be able to use oil on jobs anymore anyways.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

CK_68847 said:


> We use to use a lot of pro classic. I just never liked it. I would use all surface enamel latex before it. With latex you get no coverage on your frames. You are usually painting them 3 or 4 times if you can't spray them. I have also seen pro classic rust out on frames. Before you know it, you wont be able to use oil on jobs anymore anyways.


Actually the water based Alkyd's like "BM Advance" is an oil,sort of...Have you tried them yet?...Tough tough finish but water based cleanup,low VOC and minimal odour.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Another good characteristic about the pre cat is that you can paint over urethane caulking without it cracking. I just sprayed a gym out where it was poured walls. It was suppose to be semi gloss at the top 10 to 12 feet and expoxy below. There was no break off point, so I applied expoxy to the whole wall. The caulker caulked the top 10 feet which was mostly going to be covered by sound panel. It never did crack out.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

CK_68847 said:


> Another good characteristic about the pre cat is that you can paint over urethane caulking without it cracking. I just sprayed a gym out where it was poured walls. It was suppose to be semi gloss at the top 10 to 12 feet and expoxy below. There was no break off point, so I applied expoxy to the whole wall. The caulker caulked the top 10 feet which was mostly going to be covered by sound panel. It never did crack out.



Would you stick with that epoxy for normal residential trim and doors?..I'm just curious...Sounds like it is very thin and runny paint.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I haven't decided on using it in residential. I will be using it in all commercial jobs.


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## WiseGuys Painting (Feb 22, 2010)

i use it all the time, it covers great and has awesome adhesion. for doors and frames i prefer the sher/cryl hpa which is water based high performance acrylic. especially for dark colors if covers beyond belief. candy apple red in two coats over white. pretty expensive though


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

About 10 years ago I refinished a HPU that controls the entry gate into a national bank reserve in J-Ville Fl. It was a badly failed powder coating. I scraped, washed and treated it for the rust using ospho. I came back and applied 2 coats of a 2 part epoxy from Duron that I can not find since SW bought them. Maybe it is repackaged under SW now.

Worst failed Powder Coating I have seen. Looked like moisture must have been in the room or something cause there was speckled brown spots on the underside of the peeled paint.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> Actually the water based Alkyd's like "BM Advance" is an oil,sort of...Have you tried them yet?...Tough tough finish but water based cleanup,low VOC and minimal odour.


NO, BM is only sold in lumber yards around this area. Im guessing at some point we will have to switch to water based alkyds. Does SW or ppg offer anything that works well in that form?


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> Would you stick with that epoxy for normal residential trim and doors?..I'm just curious...Sounds like it is very thin and runny paint.


It is no more runny than 200 semi gloss. I can tell you that. We have actually put 200 semi gloss on pre primed doors and woodwork on some small cheap jobs. I personally think it would work well. I would reccomend putting the pre cat egshel epoxy on a whole house if you can get it for a decent price. It has a lot of sheen, and it also touches up well. When we do repaints of gyms, community centers, etc, we try to sell them on the precat expoxy because it holds up much better.

The most runny paint I have ever used by the way is the speedhide semi gloss from PPG. I did a a phase on a new jail last year which was mostly block. Even in hot temps, it seemed like you had to keep back rolling it over and over, so it wouldn't run. We went with 200 sg from sw on this phase. It is much easier to work with. I have always thought 200 sw is better than speedhide, but I know others think speedhide is much better.


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## PaintinNC (Dec 20, 2009)

PPG offerss a WB Alkyd in the Speedhide line and the Glyptex/Manor Hall Line. Blows the doors off of SW's similar products on price and quality.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

What's a bucket cost Paintin? What qualities do u notice a difference? Thanks


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## PaintinNC (Dec 20, 2009)

I am actually a PPG store manager so I would leave pricing up to your local rep or store manager but I know for a fact that I beat SW on a big job with it recently by 6$ a gallon. I wasnt that cheap, SW was just that high. And I'm not just SW bashing (although it is popular at this site) I worked for them for over a decade and was around when the WB oil Proclassic and PM 200 came out. They lap worse and aren't as brushable as even the Speedhide line. Main difference between SW and PPG, the products in the buckets may be comparable, but you pay a heck of a lot more for SW because of theor overhead (advertising, countless levels of redundant management, ect.)


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## MR.X (Mar 9, 2009)

Seriously? Im sorry I've just read the above reply and im shaking my head .... a decade is 10years... PM 200 has been around longer then years... and the main difference between the 2 is SW is overpriced? Have you stopped in your local big box lately? SW is priced logically within there range. And one last comment Ive read somewhere ppg now gets there resins from china... interesting isn't it not?


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

PaintinNC said:


> I am actually a PPG store manager so I would leave pricing up to your local rep or store manager but I know for a fact that I beat SW on a big job with it recently by 6$ a gallon. I wasnt that cheap, SW was just that high. And I'm not just SW bashing (although it is popular at this site) I worked for them for over a decade and was around when the WB oil Proclassic and PM 200 came out. They lap worse and aren't as brushable as even the Speedhide line. Main difference between SW and PPG, the products in the buckets may be comparable, but you pay a heck of a lot more for SW because of theor overhead (advertising, countless levels of redundant management, ect.)


I have used a lot of speedhide and promar 200. Promar 200 by far blows away the speedhide line. In my view speehide is junk paint. We pay less for promar 200 than ppg speedhide also. I have never had any problem with the 200 series, but for hatbanding on some deep base colors. We also did sports rehab center last year with speedhide and some of their deep base colors hatbanding badly. Dont get me wrong I like some PPG products better than sw, but when it comes to speedhide vs. promar 200, I will pick the promar 200 any day of the week.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

Maybe there is a newer thread that I haven't found on the SW precat water borne epoxy.

I just tried the eggshell. After sanding the oil eggshell trim (wood trim on residential repaint), then wiping with lacquer thinner, (then waterborn deglosser, which I suspect to be only effective over waterborne coatings, despite labeling), I couldn't get any waterborne to consistently stick. Then, I tried this waterborne precat epoxy paint. It sticks. Probably not as good as a $10 oil, but better than most waterborne. (I am sure devflex or sercryl would, but devflex is across town and glossy, while sercryl is too pricey at $130 a gallon.) 

The build was less than the Oil acrylic Proclassic, with a rougher, less smooth finish. But I got about 5 times the mileage for a first coat of the oil-acrylic. And no runs, which is caracteristic of a good leveling paint. Also, I did test of 50/50 mixture with the precat + the sw oil-acrylic. Egshell precat and semigloss oilacrylic. I like the sheen, but time will tell if it adherse better than the oilacylic.

I have yet to see, first hand, any waterborn that can cure up hard enough like a hard piece of plastic (like tv remote/your keyboard), within a reasonable period of time (which is not 2 months, but maybe a week, for customer credibility). The oil acrylic feels and looks like an oil (though semigloss is more credible than the eggshell), but the product fails the fingernail test miserably.

I am wondering if this precat wb can harden up in 5 days to be impervious to the fingernail. Then, it might just work on the trim of a new house. I guess time will tell. Though, on this job I must top coat with the oil acrylic as I have already purchased. I am toying with the idea of adding 1 part precat to 4 parts oil-acrylic to see it the epoxy might add hardness, while retaining the leveling and build of the sw oil-acrylic.

The paint companies forget that all first world adults are plastic property experts--starting from handling their first rattle. You cannot sell wax in a can call it trim paint; nor sell rubber in a can and call it trim paint.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

well, it has been close to the 5 day cure time for the precat epoxy.

In short, the sw precat waterborne eggshell does not adhere very well to wood work previously painted with oil eggshell. After thorough sanding, lacquer thinner wiping, de-glosser wipe, many places it is super easy, still after 5 days, to simply wipe off with finger nail. Only here and there, are places that I cannot scratch anything off.

Furthermore, the eggshell feels more like a flat wall paint, than a true oil eggshell. 

It did level out, and no tendency to run, like the water borne alkyds love to do. 

I have not tested film thickness v. adhesion. And I have not tested the semigloss. However, film thickness is a mute point for brush and roll, since you can only brush and roll on -in the real world- a limited thickness before the film runs. 

I will also reiterate, my conclusion that the waterborne deglosser (probably same thing as tsp substitute) is useless on oils, other than as a cleaner. Thorough drying is also very important, since it causes waterborne fish-eyes if even slightly damp.


Just about every waterborne, of every brand, fails over oil in my tests. Including, wb catalyzed epoxies (before 3 months), just about all ben moore high adhesion waterborne primers and finishes, including ICI oil-acylic. Only some of the industrial steel high gloss waterbornes work (shercryl, deflex). But they fail on look, price, ease of use, and feel for interior trim. The Precat, promises the adhesion and the primer/finish of a real oil; it just falls short on the adhesion.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I've had good adhesion with scuff sanding oil enamel followed by KK gloss off. I just completed 30 doors with no issues. PreCat SG.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

Andyman said:


> I've had good adhesion with scuff sanding oil enamel followed by KK gloss off. I just completed 30 doors with no issues. PreCat SG.


I think it depends on how long the oil has been on, and how close to a marine finish the oil was. Some brands are probably much harder and more resistant too. As I stated, there are areas that it worked. Also, perhaps spraying would allow a heavier coat of paint than brush and roller. The brushed lovre doors has clearly the worst adhesion; though the entrance doors are a close second-probably due to the tougher paint used there. 

In short, oils don't have this adhesion issue on any surface -- not even $12 a gallon big box store oil primers. ICI Devflex (which isn't suitable for trim, as it is rubbery) and Shercryl (again $130 a gallon and too glossy for trim), have never an adhesion issue. (procryl is not a primer + finish) It blows my mind that Ben Moore can sell high adhesive wb primers (and all their wb finishes) that simply could never be used on a new mandoor, since even after a month they easily scratch off. Even Ici's advanced alkyd cannot adhere to an oil with acceptable adhesion (contrary to the label), much less a man door. 

We need a good primer/ finish in the true eggshell range--and not the flats they sell as trim wb eggshells. This way, we can two step paint trim and be done, *as we have done for hundreds of years with oils*. 

I my bias is that the precat epoxy may be a little better with an applied thick film, than the SW oil/acrylic for adhesion. But the super easy to fingernail off areas, belie this.

Moreover, just about any acrylic paint can get a good purchase into most substrates after a year cure. But the good ones need to do it in a week. For example, you cannot use Tile clad epoxy on a wet sauna, with only 2 week cure before firing up the steam; but ICI Bar's rust 235 and 224 work fine (macropoxy might work, not sure). Lockers need also a day or two cure before usage. Most jobs need the customer credibility and payment in about 1 to 2 weeks. Else, we simply cannot get paid in many cases. Customers love excuses to not pay; All people believe what they want to believe: this is a recipe for disaster


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## Cord (Jul 23, 2013)

Dug up an old thread. I'm already familiar with the Pro Industrial™ Pre-Catalyzed Water Based Epoxy as I've been specifying it for years. I was planning on using it to paint some new wood (Poplar) trim in a home I'm remodeling. It will be sprayed in place. I'm looking for a good hard, durable, damage resistant paint and thought the single part epoxy would be perfect. However, I never realized the stuff sells for $100 a gallon! That's a bit too rich. As a plan B, what are your thoughts on a Alkyd Enamel? http://www.behr.com/cma/Behr/Marketing/Products/product_sheets/3900_PS_R412.pdf The local SW store and corporate are both recommending ProClassic which per this thread I do not want.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Coronado has a Pre-Cat in Eggshell and Semi Gloss that's about 60% less then $100.


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

Don't know about the 100 bucks, we pay about 45 per gal. a very good product.


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## Cord (Jul 23, 2013)

Scannell Painting said:


> Don't know about the 100 bucks, we pay about 45 per gal. a very good product.


Is that the Sherwin Williams product? Wife got the quote from the store and maybe they had some special pricing for her.
This is what we're talking about, right? http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...pro-industrial-precatalyzed-waterbased-epoxy/


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

Cord said:


> Is that the Sherwin Williams product? Wife got the quote from the store and maybe they had some special pricing for her.
> This is what we're talking about, right? http://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...pro-industrial-precatalyzed-waterbased-epoxy/


Yea that's it. Used it last night on trim in a doctors bldg. with heavy traffic, walkers wheelchairs etc. $46.86 per gal. tinted.


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## Cord (Jul 23, 2013)

Scannell Painting said:


> Yea that's it. Used it last night on trim in a doctors bldg. with heavy traffic, walkers wheelchairs etc. $46.86 per gal. tinted.


Hit them up again last night and they "discounted" their price to $65 a gallon. :whistling2:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah they're kinda funny that way!


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## Dkon7 (Jan 23, 2013)

Cord said:


> Hit them up again last night and they "discounted" their price to $65 a gallon. :whistling2:


Somethings wrong bud. Call back and ask the Manager (not a part timer) about REX # K45w151. Thats the SW descriptor for EgShel. The REX for SemiGloss is: K46W151.

Let me know what happens.


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## Midas (May 9, 2013)

MR.X said:


> Seriously? Im sorry I've just read the above reply and im shaking my head .... a decade is 10years... PM 200 has been around longer then years... and the main difference between the 2 is SW is overpriced? Have you stopped in your local big box lately? SW is priced logically within there range. And one last comment Ive read somewhere ppg now gets there resins from china... interesting isn't it not?


He said he worked for them over a decade. He never said when that decade was. Isn't it possible he has worked for the new company foe ten years and ten years before that SW? Interesting when someone jumps to such conclusion without putting in any thought


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## Dkon7 (Jan 23, 2013)

*Precat WB Epoxy*

I probably would not have speced WB Precat for exterior use as the color and gloss retention ratings are not as good as the Multi-Surface Acrylic. Its got much better exterior performance characteristics and is self priming to metal. If your spraying it, it even has the characteristics of a dryfall, so any cars parked close may get dusted, but they wont get oversprayed. I speced it for a pre-finished meal building repaint today for less than $46 p/g.


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

*Problem with precat*

We are doing a office repaint job with over 80 doors that have been painted with oil paint before. My SW rep told me to go directly over it with precat but it doesn't hold at all. I can scratch the paint off with my finger nails easily. Any suggestions? I don't want to prime the doors, because they are going the same dark grey color.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

MonPeintre.ca said:


> We are doing a office repaint job with over 80 doors that have been painted with oil paint before. My SW rep told me to go directly over it with precat but it doesn't hold at all. I can scratch the paint off with my finger nails easily. Any suggestions? I don't want to prime the doors, because they are going the same dark grey color.


How long has it been on the doors? Overnight? A week?

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

NACE said:


> How long has it been on the doors? Overnight? A week?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


24h, ill see this morning if It's better


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I've always use adhesion primer prior to precat. At a minimum would be orbital. I wouldn't suggest going directly over oil. I bet it doesn't get better...


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

Andyman said:


> I've always use adhesion primer prior to precat. At a minimum would be orbital. I wouldn't suggest going directly over oil. I bet it doesn't get better...


No it doesnt


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## ligboozer (Oct 13, 2009)

MonPeintre.ca said:


> No it doesnt


 

Did you paint all Eighty or did you do an adhesion test on just one and that's what is failing? 

I would have a hard time going over oil with any product without priming first, especially in a office where they will be destroyed by traffic, fingernails, and the cleaning crew.


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