# Need Advice for Hi Gloss Walls and Trim



## Eric Normand (Jan 7, 2016)

I have a client who requested the walls and trim of her dining room to be painted with Fine Paints of Europe gloss (she didn't specify which FPE product, but from what she described I'm thinking Hollandlac or Eurolux high gloss). Due to the extremely high cost of this paint, around $800 for this project, we are looking at other products. The best alternative I have found is Benjamin Moore Advance - high gloss. I read an old thread on here where somebody mentioned using Advance in this type of application. The walls and trim will be the same color, a dark blue. The walls are in pretty good shape, and I plan to repair everything I see, then prime all the walls corner to corner. I plan to apply the finish coats with brush and roller (I'm thinking a 3/8 inch soft woven nap). One thought is to paint all the trim first, then paint the walls one wall at a time by cutting into the trim and corners with a mini roller (using a small brush to paint the crease), then roll out the wall. I've used this method previously on a job that called for semigloss walls and it worked pretty well. I would love to hear some feedback regarding tips and tricks for this type of application - best type of primer to use, characteristics of Benjamin Moore Advance, other high gloss product alternatives, best roller nap, application techniques, things to look out for. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Good luck. I would say to make sure all your final rollers strokes are in the same direction. I would prime it with something like gardz to get it sealed as tight as possible before you roll it.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I second the Gardz recommendation. It will provide a more uniform surface than most primers, which you will need for high gloss walls. If the client wants FPE, charge her for it, unless she got sticker shock as well. For $50 or so a gallon, Advance is pretty sweet. I would definitely roll out a "test wall" and see what nap (microfiber, etc) provides best finish. BM has a mini roller they recommend for Advance, it's red, that's all I remember.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I wouldn't just assume a customer wants high-gloss, and I'd do everything I could to talk them down at least one sheen whenever possible. Advance HG is awesome, but in a dark blue, be prepared for extremely long dry times.


----------



## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

I would do a sample if You're going with the deep base Advance in high gloss. Had a small home library (wall to wall built-ins and cabinets) last summer and the designer called for a high gloss eggplant color. I made sample boards and the finish would sort of fish-eye. Ruled out the tints after a couple of samples and did one draw down with just the base and it did the same thing. Ended up using a BM DTM oil per my reps suggestion for the hardness and gloss and just about ruined the job.

Had problems on a front door with BM Caliente and the other in a F&B Bringal for this room. Tried different batches from different stores and all the 4x deep base high gloss were doing it. Not surprising I never heard back 

Not sure if anyone else ran into this issue. My suggestion would be to go with FPOE and massive prep to bring everything up to a level 5 finish


----------



## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

BTW that was a BM Aura semi-gloss ceiling. I wished I used something else or sprayed the ceiling. I had it at a level 5 but still couldn't get the finish I wanted even after 3 coats with sanding in between. As much as I use Aura it just did not finish the same for the ceiling. Couldn't get it to level out without the stipple. I used the 3/16 roller and think it would have done better with the 5/16 or even 3/8. Some reason I was thinking the Aura didn't level as well as if it were on a vertical or flat service.


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I'd have a serious conversation with the client about the difference between spray vs. brush & rolled finish. 

Also, is this project a remodel or repaint? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'd pass and let a young guy earn his stripes on this one. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'd pass and let a young guy earn his stripes on this one.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


I am betting he is:whistling2:


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I have a customer who's whole interior is FPOE Hollandlac brilliant (except ceilings) in many vivid colors. They did not want it sprayed so all brush and roll. Walls need a full skimmed, primed with Eurolux acrylic tinted to finish color. Woodwork is primed with Hollandlac oil. Sand to 220 before primers, 320-500 after 1st topcoat on trim. Sand, vac and tack every coat and keep the room clean. Use 5/16 microplush sleeves. And after hundreds of gallons I have found that XIM xtender is better then FPOE spirits for reducing.
And quadruple the number of hours you think it will take.
In general the only reason to use Hollandlac gloss is for their vivid color, extremely high gloss and depth of color. If the customer is not that discerning then use Advance, it's a good paint.


----------



## Eric Normand (Jan 7, 2016)

She definitely wants high gloss, she just wasn't sure of which specific line of FPOE. She said something like "high gloss, lacquer like finish", and she showed me a picture of a room painted with FPOE high-gloss blue paint in which the walls looked like mirrors. Her interior designer has sold her on this particular look for this room. When I told her that the oil base paint would be an extremely powerful odor in her house for several days, she seemed concerned. That's what got me thinking about using Advance. The house is one year old, the drywall is in very good shape, and the walls are painted with flat paint with almost no stipple. After reading through these comments, I kind of don't really want the job, but it's a really good client and I'm trying to make it happen for her. Is there any reason to think I would have the fisheye or other problems if I prime with guards and roll with the correct nap? Will this achieve a mirrorlike finish?


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Eric Normand said:


> She definitely wants high gloss, she just wasn't sure of which specific line of FPOE. She said something like "high gloss, lacquer like finish", and she showed me a picture of a room painted with FPOE high-gloss blue paint in which the walls looked like mirrors. Her interior designer has sold her on this particular look for this room. When I told her that the oil base paint would be an extremely powerful odor in her house for several days, she seemed concerned. That's what got me thinking about using Advance. The house is one year old, the drywall is in very good shape, and the walls are painted with flat paint with almost no stipple. After reading through these comments, I kind of don't really want the job, but it's a really good client and I'm trying to make it happen for her. Is there any reason to think I would have the fisheye or other problems if I prime with guards and roll with the correct nap? Will this achieve a mirrorlike finish?


If by mirror finish you mean smooth with no stipple then no that will not give you a mirror finish. Only spraying a skimmed wall prime to finish will do that with this paint. Roll and back brushing the walls is the next closest thing.
It's not worth using FPOE unless you take the time to do it right.


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Eric Normand said:


> She definitely wants high gloss, she just wasn't sure of which specific line of FPOE. She said something like "high gloss, lacquer like finish", and she showed me a picture of a room painted with FPOE high-gloss blue paint in which the walls looked like mirrors. Her interior designer has sold her on this particular look for this room. When I told her that the oil base paint would be an extremely powerful odor in her house for several days, she seemed concerned. That's what got me thinking about using Advance. The house is one year old, the drywall is in very good shape, and the walls are painted with flat paint with almost no stipple. After reading through these comments, I kind of don't really want the job, but it's a really good client and I'm trying to make it happen for her. Is there any reason to think I would have the fisheye or other problems if I prime with guards and roll with the correct nap? Will this achieve a mirrorlike finish?


You're not going to have a problem with fisheyes after gardz. Your biggest concern should be the drywall. I dont care how good it looks with some crappy dead flat paint on it. That high gloss will show everything. The only way to do it without major problems is a full on level 5 skimming and sanding. Then priming and sanding again, then coating and sanding again each time with a finer grit paper and tacking in between. 

It's crazy labor intensive and if you don't take all that time in to account you're gonna get burnt. If you try doing it without skimming it's gonna look like garbage and you'll risk not getting paid.

Also I'd be spraying it. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Prc 
Isn't xim extender for water based ?
I don't know that product ( will look it up )
And Briggs 
Have you sprayed f p o e ?
What do you use ?


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Phinnster said:


> Prc
> Isn't xim extender for water based ?
> I don't know that product ( will look it up )
> And Briggs
> ...


No I haven't but I've sprayed advance with good results. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks 
I think spraying advance and f p o e are two different beasts


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Eric you are stepping into automotive like finishing when working with hollandlac. Prep has to be flawless and application technique has to be spot on. You also have to be able to work clean. A tiny spec of dust looks huge in this finish. 

This is a single strand of dust that dried in the middle of this table. It can drive you a little crazy working in this sheen. PRC wasn't joking about a normal painting cost multiplier.


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Phinnster said:


> Prc
> Isn't xim extender for water based ?
> I don't know that product ( will look it up )
> And Briggs
> ...


They make both. It is way better then penetrol or spirits.

http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/xim/additives/x-tender


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Phinnster said:


> Thanks
> I think spraying advance and f p o e are two different beasts


Definitely. I wouldn't attempt FPoE on a job without either bringing on someone with experience or having done it and on my own test boards first.


----------



## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

It would be nice if some one documented their process for rolling f p o e 
What exact roller are you using 
Nap ? Brand ?
Also their spray system

I know shearer does a ton 
Maybe he would chime in ?
Or others


----------



## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Phinnster said:


> It would be nice if some one documented their process for rolling f p o e
> What exact roller are you using
> Nap ? Brand ?
> Also their spray system
> ...


Umm I think PRC did that in post 10


----------



## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks tony 
I must have missed the spraying info 
I must be going blind


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Phinnster said:


> It would be nice if some one documented their process for rolling f p o e
> What exact roller are you using
> Nap ? Brand ?
> Also their spray system
> ...


I'm pretty sure Shearer brushes it. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## fredo (Nov 20, 2011)

We just finished a high gloss room, it was a medium base blue(Farrow and Ball Dix Blue), and it took forever. Wainscoting, crown, and picture frames above the wainscoting, all in high gloss single color.

Forget everything you know about fine finishes when you start this project!!!!

Every blemish in every square inch will show like a beam of bright light in a dimly lit room! 

So, first every square inch really needs to be perfect...yes perfect. And after you think its perfect, spray your first coat and you'll see what I mean when I say perfect. It took us four coats, sanding 320 between every coat. And it's almost perfect....after a week of prep and layers of paint. 

Remember this, primer is flat, so you can't see the imperfections in the wall. After the first coat you'll develop a complex, lol. We will only do one of these again time and material. Also, I don't think your designer is looking for roller nap and brush ropes. You have to spray gloss and high gloss in my opinion.

Note: the designers we deal with are in love with this high-gloss european look. 

Also, for reference we used Coronado Rust Cat Gloss(oil-base). It looked wet when it dried and the designer loved it.

I'll post pictures next week after the floors are finished.


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

If your client couldn't stomach the cost of FPOE, then I'm doubtful that they'll be willing to fork out the $$$ for the amount of time it would take to produce a finished product that's even close to what Fredo's describing.

Budgets are of little to no concern for the types of clients that hire contractors to do the type of work that Fredo is describing. These type of clients only concern is the end result.

There is an old post somewhere on PT from Shearer that describes a similar process for a project they sprayed with Holandac. If I'm not mistaken they wet sanded up to about 1200 grit and they used a Kremlin Airmix and several air scrubbers while they were spraying. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

I'd just get the non glossy color in uniform manner on and top it off with clear gloss polyurethane sprayed on for best shin with no roller overlaps and debris. Clean, durable, solid, shiny and.. non-breaking the bank. But that's just me.


----------



## Eric Normand (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks for all this info, everybody, I really appreciate it. Your comments confirm some of my fears about this project. I originally tried to steer her towards semigloss, but she didn't think that was shiny enough. The closest thing I've ever done to a project like this was semigloss walls - we did a thorough prep, primed corner to corner, then brushed and rolled two coats of Benjamin Moore Regal Select Semigloss, sanding between all coats. The walls looked outstanding, probably a halfway point between typical wall coatings and high-gloss. I hate to let her down, but at this point I might have to tell her that a high-gloss finish is beyond the scope of what I can do.


----------



## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Eric Normand said:


> Thanks for all this info, everybody, I really appreciate it. Your comments confirm some of my fears about this project. I originally tried to steer her towards semigloss, but she didn't think that was shiny enough. The closest thing I've ever done to a project like this was semigloss walls - we did a thorough prep, primed corner to corner, then brushed and rolled two coats of Benjamin Moore Regal Select Semigloss, sanding between all coats. The walls looked outstanding, probably a halfway point between typical wall coatings and high-gloss. I hate to let her down, but at this point I might have to tell her that a high-gloss finish is beyond the scope of what I can do.


I would love a project like that! Don't let all the comments scare you off. The point was that it will be very time consuming and take a fair amount of skill and patience but knowing that up front is necessary. 

Just charge appropriately and remember, in business we sell and manage expectations so as long as the HO fully understands that this would be a beautiful room but would come at a price. Most likely T&M or a CYA price.

Or you could just paint apartments or room in a day jobs with everything an off-white. This is a job that sets you apart and makes it fun!


----------



## ptbopainter (Sep 10, 2013)

Phinnster said:


> Prc
> Isn't xim extender for water based ?
> I don't know that product ( will look it up )
> And Briggs
> ...


For water "modified" paints which advance is
It works really well with advance, the 4x base is useless without it


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Shearer Painting also uses kiddy pools of water to catch errant dust when they use FPE. Go to his website and you will see the madness that entails when you need a perfect gloss look.

As someone noted, if this client balks at the cost of FPE, they will [email protected] themselves when you show them a reasonable estimate that takes into account the labor necessary on this type of job.


----------



## fredo (Nov 20, 2011)

For high-end painting in affluent areas, this is a very quickly growing trend in Kansas City...just to let you know, cause it may be on the other side of your phone soon.


----------

