# How will the Coronavirus affect our work?



## WestKyPainter (Nov 7, 2018)

I'm in Western Kentucky and I have two jobs on the books worth approximately 12k-13k. That's a lot of money to me. 

One job is a new construction home and the other is a repaint. This is looking bad folks. I don't even know if I will get to do these projects. 

Thankfully, I have an emergency fund stashed away. It should pull me and my family through 6+ months. Who knows how long this craziness will last.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I've shut down, have a lot of jobs on the books, approx 60k worth of work. I've laid off my three employees, filed for unemployment, not sure if they will grant to self-employed person, but we will see. My wife will still get paid, working for school district, she watches the kids now that they are out. No phone calls in the last week, so expect that to go away. I am expecting this to last over three months for sure, July is the target that most experts are looking at. I've got a good amount of savings, so we will be ok.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

MikeCA
I’m in CA too. I am down to 1 employee and been thinking what to do. We have been off for a week because of rain(exterior project). 
Have a couple other small gigs on the books but nothing too pressure. Pretty much totally shut down for a good month at least. Trying to decide whether to have employee file unemployment, or get an sba loan and just pay him until things clear up. (Any thoughts?) I don’t want to lose him as an employee either so I’d like to be able to take care of him. I do feel like it’s going to last a few months at least though. Maybe I’ll file for myself as well(who knows what the parameters are right?) tough times, at least my wife still has a job and from home too. Thanks 


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I've shut down, have a lot of jobs on the books, approx 60k worth of work. I've laid off my three employees, filed for unemployment, not sure if they will grant to self-employed person, but we will see. My wife will still get paid, working for school district, she watches the kids now that they are out. No phone calls in the last week, so expect that to go away. I am expecting this to last over three months for sure, July is the target that most experts are looking at. I've got a good amount of savings, so we will be ok.


If your incorporated you may be able to collect unemployment comp.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

With this pandemic, all bets are off. Nobody has a firm idea of how long this situation is going to last. It's been contemplated that the virus may affect 60 to 80% of the populace. The start of wholesale blood tests for the Covid-19 virus for antibodies will show how many have had it even without symptoms, it may also lead to a vaccine. The State of New York on Tuesday will start testing a few anti-malarial drugs and let's hope this will be a game-changer.
New York state is also running a clinical trial beginning Tuesday of a treatment regimen of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, two drugs that doctors in Africa and elsewhere say they’ve seen good results in fighting the virus..


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

juanvaldez said:


> MikeCA
> I’m in CA too. I am down to 1 employee and been thinking what to do. We have been off for a week because of rain(exterior project).
> Have a couple other small gigs on the books but nothing too pressure. Pretty much totally shut down for a good month at least. Trying to decide whether to have employee file unemployment, or get an sba loan and just pay him until things clear up. (Any thoughts?) I don’t want to lose him as an employee either so I’d like to be able to take care of him. I do feel like it’s going to last a few months at least though. Maybe I’ll file for myself as well(who knows what the parameters are right?) tough times, at least my wife still has a job and from home too. Thanks
> 
> ...



With the new package the feds are putting through, plus the one the president already put through, your employee should get immediate unemployment benefits plus money coming directly to him. Also, call any bill makers and I have heard a lot of them will put off any payments for a few months. Not sure about rents, but if we all have to hunker down, worry about food as our priority, we all will be ok.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

*Nationwide's Health of Housing Market Report *

2020Q1 HoHM Report: Housing market health remains solid for 2020

"While the risk that the coronavirus outbreak will disrupt economic activity has increased significantly, the national LIHHM* projects that the housing sector will remain a source of growth for the economy in 2020. The key to this positive outlook is strong underlying housing demand factors — including above-trend household growth, solid job gains, and low mortgage rates. Regionally, housing trends have improved in many local markets with more than half of metro areas showing a positive ranking this quarter. This suggests that the odds of a downturn in most housing markets during 2020 are low.

While mortgage delinquencies and foreclosures are not a concern at present, some homeowners could be at greater risk during the next economic downturn. Looser lending standards for FHA, VA, and jumbo loans since 2012 suggest that these loan types would be more vulnerable than plain vanilla conventional, conforming loans to worsening economic conditions." *End Quote*

Based on the housing report and the solid foundation supporting the recent booming economy, I think the Trades are poised to burst back into action once strict quarantine measures are lessoned. 

I see the current economic crisis more of a pause rather than the catastrophe associated with the 2008 housing collapse.

* LIHHM-Leading Index for Healthy Housing Markets 
https://blog.nationwide.com/housing/


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

We've got some remodel projects going that should continue for now. If and when the powers that be shut down such things, I suppose I'll work on some of my own properties. I've got a house that was almost ready to hit the market (D'oh), so we can finish it up and at least it will be ready to go when things get back to normal.

I've also got this 1860 4700sf home that was converted to apartments to work on. We already gutted it back to the original home, but it all needs put back together. I'm putting it back as a single family home and adding a garage addition.

That could probably keep us busy for the next year, as long as I don't run out of money or material availability. 

All else fails, I guess I'll be sitting at home with the wife and daughter and everyone else will have to take unemployment. I've got savings, but I can't just keep payroll running if nothing is getting done.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Picture the economy as one of those big beautiful Blue Whales you've seen silently cruising along a vast and mysterious ocean scape. Typically, you'll notice a bunch of Barnacles and small fish either attached to the whale, or steadily swimming next to it to keep up in order to benefit from whatever opportunities may arise by way of this mammoth's path. 

Eventually, the whale is faced by what could be a shark, or a human threat. The whale becomes agitated, or even harmed. This provocation forces the clingers to flee in a panic. And while many clingers will busily return when the whale escapes it's peril, others will have been consumed by the terror.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Well, the effects are already broad and deep through all economic sectors and in very bad ways. I'm lucky since my primary job is salaried and can be moved online. As for my painting, my GC still has things going, but there's a lot of uncertainty about for how long just because people will be freezing up their spending.

But if you have people who are mostly worried about virus transmission, it's a good time to chase exterior work. It's getting to be that time of year and the whole "social distancing" thing is easy for exterior. You never have to go inside and breathe the same air or touch any of their normally touched stuff...

On the whole, as CApainter said, you hope that all of this is just a pause rather than a crash. But one nice thing about being in the - probably - least appreciated trades is that we're also relatively cheap. At a time when many people are shy to do any major renovation or whatever, a new paint job is sometimes a viable substitute for the time being.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Things in PA are at a standstill by order of the Governor effective Friday, March 20. No non-essential businesses may operate, and painting is deemed non-essential. Not to be enforced until Monday March 23, which is today. 

There have been some businesses resisting, and the Governor has ordered the PA State Police , Board of Health, and Liquor Control Board to start enforcing the edict today at 8:00 am. Those found not in compliance will face legal action.

Fast becoming the norm across the Country.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

If you're a painter, solo or with employees, and your cash on hand is basically job to job - you're probably looking at some tough times.

Residential - you have HO's who may be worried about exposure. Then their financial situation kicks in. Do they go ahead and spend the money on painting or keep it in savings for the foreseeable future?

New construction - builders look at what the sales market is going to do. If it stagnates for a couple months, are they better off putting the project on hold and hanging on to the money, or finishing and hoping for a sale?

Obviously, geographic location comes into play. Some areas have been hit harder than others.

Here's the kicker, or kick in the a55; they get this virus under control. How long that takes is anyone's guess. Everybody is going to be trying to get back on their feet, and that is going to tie up the funds they'd have available for their projects. It may be longer than a couple of months.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Many a time I’ve said nobody needs ‘faux’.

Anyone that thinks homeowners will have disposable income in a few months to do painting projects is delusional. The people spraying apartment turnovers or NC will be fighting over scraps.

I’ll be living in a van down by the river by the time this is ‘over’.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Endeavor to persevere, Lynn. 

BTW, I worked on a job with the “Pony tail through the cap” faux finisher a couple of weeks ago. Hadn’t seen her in about 10 years. 


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Endeavor to persevere, Lynn.
> 
> BTW, I worked on a job with the “Pony tail through the cap” faux finisher a couple of weeks ago. Hadn’t seen her in about 10 years.
> 
> ...


Is she a hottie?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Many a time I’ve said nobody needs ‘faux’.
> 
> Anyone that thinks homeowners will have disposable income in a few months to do painting projects is delusional. The people spraying apartment turnovers or NC will be fighting over scraps.
> 
> I’ll be living in a van down by the river by the time this is ‘over’.


When the $hit, hit the fan in 2008 I was working for a PC who was located on the North Shore and did most of his work there which was high-end residential. He had some of the richest people as clients. Before the recession hit they had 25 painters two weeks later me and 19 other painters were laid off, the ones that remained were all relatives. They told us they got calls every day from customers canceling or postponing their decorating jobs! Mind you most of them had many, many millions, a few were worth a billion.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Many a time I’ve said nobody needs ‘faux’.
> 
> Anyone that thinks homeowners will have disposable income in a few months to do painting projects is delusional. The people spraying apartment turnovers or NC will be fighting over scraps.
> 
> I’ll be living in a van down by the river by the time this is ‘over’.


I hope your van has some nice shag carpeting, it makes it so much more livable.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> Is she a hottie?




She doesn’t hurt my eyes. 


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> She doesn’t hurt my eyes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Got any pics?:biggrin:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Afraid not.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

slinger58 said:


> Afraid not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what they called the piece of rope after he got into a bar room fight!
:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

...as always, take care of your waitress....


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Like most states now, here in Ohio non-essential businesses are shut down. My local SW store just banked its best sales day of the year. The salespeople got run ragged. All I can think of is that people are flocking to get paint because there is literally nothing else to do at home and paintstores will soon be labeled as non-essential business and no one will be able to buy paint.

I'm only doing exteriors for now but of course the Ohio weather is awful right now. It will likely be another week or so before I can get back at it. No interiors as I don't want to risk passing CV on to elderly customers. My wife is a nurse so who knows how much exposure she has had and passed on to me.

I've only seen the paint biz slow down 3 other times in my 42 years. Mid 90's type recession hit. Twice in the 2000's with the housing glut and then the collapse of the Big 3 Automakers, etc. and now this. Hard to say how it will all shake out. I know one thing, it's hard to sit still!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Thankfully I've had a few cabinet and furniture jobs on the go at my shop. Everythingelse is on lockdown and rightfully so. Nobody should be working in anybody's home right now.
The sooner we all follow the rules, the sooner this will be over..


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

We are closed in WV now. We built some walls today, packed up the tools and went into hiding.

I'll be a one man show for the duration of this stupid virus, I guess. Not that I can go do any paying work anyway.

I figure I'll probably start re-roofing some of my properties in the interim. Not the most glamorous thing to do, but some of them are getting due and it will pay off in the long term. Got some lawn maintenance, personal projects, paperwork and everything else to catch up on.

I've got one house ready for market, so I'll tie up the loose ends there and start readying the next one. At the very least, they'll be ready to go when thing improve.

I'm also keeping an eye out for bargains on the real estate side. This is the opportune time to make hay there.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gymschu said:


> Like most states now, here in Ohio non-essential businesses are shut down. My local SW store just banked its best sales day of the year. The salespeople got run ragged. All I can think of is that people are flocking to get paint because there is literally nothing else to do at home and paintstores will soon be labeled as non-essential business and no one will be able to buy paint.
> 
> I'm only doing exteriors for now but of course the Ohio weather is awful right now. It will likely be another week or so before I can get back at it. No interiors as I don't want to risk passing CV on to elderly customers. My wife is a nurse so who knows how much exposure she has had and passed on to me.
> 
> I've only seen the paint biz slow down 3 other times in my 42 years. Mid 90's type recession hit. Twice in the 2000's with the housing glut and then the collapse of the Big 3 Automakers, etc. and now this. Hard to say how it will all shake out. I know one thing, it's hard to sit still!


Are you allowed to do exteriors. Masschusetts start its "shelter in place" today and I am under the impression that I cannot do even outside work.

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Oregon closed down yesterday. Only critical services allowed to continue functioning (medical, fire/police, supermarkets, gas stations, etc). So far restaurants are still allowed to remain open for pickup and delivery but many have chosen to shut down.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Apparently despite the "shelter in place" in Massachusetts I am allowed to work. Hopefully home owners will have the cash. Have several exterios that I can start prep work on.

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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

iv mostly been a one man show through most of my mid and late 20s and ive gone through some long winters with no work, im not all that worried if i slide into a bit of debt. 
when you work for yourself its always a bit of a gamble, i look at it differently if things go south


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

In PA you can't work inside or out if non-essential.

I don't think the work stoppage will be more than a few weeks. I'd be more worried about the long term effects on the economy. It could take a year or two, maybe more for people to start spending much money on painting again.


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## craig14tc3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster here. I am a OMS at this time in Michigan. We just went into the stay at home order yesterday and have no idea if I am allowed to work or not. I am ok financially to not work but I do not want to tell my scheduled jobs I cannot work only for them to find out other contractors are working.

It seems as if the non-essential wording is the same state to state but I have heard of other contractors in my area still planning on working.

Anyone else in Michigan with some input? Thank you


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

In CA if you are self employed and didn’t contribute to a disability plan then you are pretty much SOL. no filing for unemployment. Possibly if you are incorporated and an employee of the company and paid into it. 


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

We’ve got exterior work but the rain has stopped us. In So Cal I think it can be construed as a grey area in the shutdown. We aren’t classified as essential but we are doing work to protect safety, health, and security and other trades are considered essential. So, I guess if a HO says they are ok to work, and employees want to work, then unless the law stops us, we work. 
I for one am staying at home, ordering paint and supplies for my guy to PU curbside and work solo, with proper PPE(mask and gloves) outside only, until
Things clear up. Slow going I’ll admit and going nuts at home 


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

craig14tc3 said:


> Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster here. I am a OMS at this time in Michigan. We just went into the stay at home order yesterday and have no idea if I am allowed to work or not. I am ok financially to not work but I do not want to tell my scheduled jobs I cannot work only for them to find out other contractors are working.
> 
> It seems as if the non-essential wording is the same state to state but I have heard of other contractors in my area still planning on working.
> 
> Anyone else in Michigan with some input? Thank you



If you really need to, I would chose your work appropriately. Also try to plan for noone to be there, as to practice social distancing. If your not following proper protocol, your just part of the problem. Everybody just need s to chill for a couple weeks and let things settle down. 
Send your clients an email explaining the importance of this!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> If you really need to, I would chose your work appropriately. Also try to plan for noone to be there, as to practice social distancing. If your not following proper protocol, your just part of the problem. Everybody just need s to chill for a couple weeks and let things settle down.
> Send your clients an email explaining the importance of this!


Yep, and if they are stupid enough to still want you there, you should definitely stay away.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

We have been shut down for about a week now in RI. I do about 60% kitchen cabinet refinishing, 30% interior painting, and the balance exterior work. I have quite a few jobs booked, but starting last week, every single customer has put me on hold. No one wants me in their house yet. The governor has most non essential businesses closed and I don't really see a light at the end of the tunnel yet.  I am an S corp, so I was able to file for unemployment personally, but it really is just enough to put food on the table, and it doesn't do anything to pay the businesses bills. I only have one employee at the moment and he is collecting now, too. I was just getting ready to hire probably 2 more guys because things were steaming along and we were supposed to be in a Home Show next week that gives us a ton of business, but it got cancelled and will not resume till next year. It is a little early here to start exterior stuff. Everything is so wet at the moment. In fact, it is raining today.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Respec said:


> We have been shut down for about a week now in RI. I do about 60% kitchen cabinet refinishing, 30% interior painting, and the balance exterior work. I have quite a few jobs booked, but starting last week, every single customer has put me on hold. No one wants me in their house yet. The governor has most non essential businesses closed and I don't really see a light at the end of the tunnel yet. I am an S corp, so I was able to file for unemployment personally, but it really is just enough to put food on the table, and it doesn't do anything to pay the businesses bills. I only have one employee at the moment and he is collecting now, too. I was just getting ready to hire probably 2 more guys because things were steaming along and we were supposed to be in a Home Show next week that gives us a ton of business, but it got cancelled and will not resume till next year. It is a little early here to start exterior stuff. Everything is so wet at the moment. In fact, it is raining today.


Unemployment, as you say, is enough to put food on the table and maybe pay a bill or two nothing more. It always gets me pissed when I hear someone saying those lazy bastards are sitting at home, living the good life.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

*Lost work*



Gymschu said:


> Like most states now, here in Ohio non-essential businesses are shut down. My local SW store just banked its best sales day of the year. The salespeople got run ragged. All I can think of is that people are flocking to get paint because there is literally nothing else to do at home and paintstores will soon be labeled as non-essential business and no one will be able to buy paint.
> 
> I'm only doing exteriors for now but of course the Ohio weather is awful right now. It will likely be another week or so before I can get back at it. No interiors as I don't want to risk passing CV on to elderly customers. My wife is a nurse so who knows how much exposure she has had and passed on to me.
> 
> I've only seen the paint biz slow down 3 other times in my 42 years. Mid 90's type recession hit. Twice in the 2000's with the housing glut and then the collapse of the Big 3 Automakers, etc. and now this. Hard to say how it will all shake out. I know one thing, it's hard to sit still!


I have also lost some work because of this. One of my cabinet jobs also included interior painting of the kitchen, about $3300 worth of interior work. They just got back from vacation and he is an orthodontist. All dental practices in RI are closed for the next 3 weeks, and they are quarantined for 2 weeks anyways because of their vacation. They are painting the kitchen because they have nothing better to do and they feel it is a project they can tackle, and I don't blame them. We still have the cabinet portion, but lost the interior painting.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

I went ahead and applied for a SBA disaster loan for economic distress yesterday. I’ll see what happens hopefully soon. Could be a good option for those of us w employees that maybe don’t want to lay them off or have them file unemployment, but just kinda want to wait out the storm CV. 
We have work to do but I kinda just want to wait it out. This could drag on for quite a while and a loan at 30 yrs/3.75% is a good option to have in the bank. 
#justincase

Anyone else think about this option?


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## SweetLu (Feb 28, 2017)

On a positive note, my business is only 4 years old and the economy has been great til now. For some reason I’m actually looking forward to a recession to see if we can survive, what tactics will work, how it will affect my prices and competition. It’s going to be a time to learn for me. I just hope I don’t “learn” myself into bankruptcy lol.

I have a lot to be thankful for though. Taxes are already paid, had a busy winter, and have enough to survive for a few months. After my last job finishes (next Friday) if I haven’t booked anything else I’m gonna apply for the Canada Benefit. Apparently 2k per month per person. So my wife and I might both be able to get it. If not we’ll find a way to survive.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

craig14tc3 said:


> Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster here. I am a OMS at this time in Michigan. We just went into the stay at home order yesterday and have no idea if I am allowed to work or not. I am ok financially to not work but I do not want to tell my scheduled jobs I cannot work only for them to find out other contractors are working.
> 
> It seems as if the non-essential wording is the same state to state but I have heard of other contractors in my area still planning on working.
> 
> Anyone else in Michigan with some input? Thank you


I am in Michigan as well. As best as I can tell, it is pretty clear we are shut down by the governor. I think if a tree fell in a roof, fixing that would be an emergency but painting the ceiling after the roof is patched is not. Originally, I thought we could could interpret things a little more broadly but I think it is pretty clear that the governor is trying to shut down as much as possible. Landscaping companies cannot work outside, so I think we are out of luck. 

I was counting on a early exterior season and thought this would be a safe option during the Coronavirus, but it looks like it is not an option.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Same here. Taxes already paid for the most part. Had a busy winter as well, so money wise we're fine. For now.


My main concern is hearing so many people talking about their investments crashing. So many people getting laid off as well. Money will be very tight for some. Those of us who do mainly residential repaints might be in for a tough time for a while as people conserve "luxury" non essential things like painting. Thankfully I'm still getting calls from people who want to be on my schedule for when things settle down. As well thankfully, most of them aren't expecting me to come to look at the jobs right now (although some idiots are). Might not be a bad idea to throw some exterior stuff in the mix for this summer.


I've been thinking about that $2k Canada Benefit. Haven't looked into it much though. It's a loan right? My wife was working from home, but got called back to work the floor since so many people are taking leaves of absence or just not showing up for work. She's getting paid an extra $2/hr for I'd guess you'd call it danger pay?



Still have one totally empty building starting tomorrow, but nothing after that. Paint and supplies preloaded prior to the poop hitting the fan.


I have to imagine the long term effects of this could be pretty significant. Financially and otherwise.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I just worry about how long it will continue. We can handle it for awhile, but exterior season is critical to my business. If we lose much of that at all we won’t be able to “catch up” plus the challenges of hiring for the rest of the exterior crew. 

I know some younger people (in their 30’s) that sold off their mutual funds from retirement accounts at the bottom of the crash so they would not lose more money. Such a bad mistake to make, especially at that age.

Oh, and I did get a MUCH hiring tax bill than expected. That does not help.


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## Pray4surf (Oct 18, 2013)

Anybody that's still working, are you getting negative feedback about working when most others have to stay home?

I'm fortunate to have quite a bit of exterior and vacant interiors to do but I'm not sure how to handle some of the comments. 

People that are still working how are you handling this?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Pray4surf said:


> Anybody that's still working, are you getting negative feedback about working when most others have to stay home?
> 
> I'm fortunate to have quite a bit of exterior and vacant interiors to do but I'm not sure how to handle some of the comments.
> 
> People that are still working how are you handling this?





I haven't had any negative feedback whatsoever. People have asked (via the interweb) how I'm working and I explain that I'm working in a building that was sold over a month ago and nobody except for me has been in it since. I've managed to minimize extra trips to the paint shop to virtually nil.


Then again, I've been showing up to work in the dark at 6:30am and going straight home after work so I guess I should say I'm not aware of any negative feedback. Maybe someone out there is saying "What's that Ahole doing painting!!"


At the end of the day, here in Ontario construction including residential is allowed to continue. It might get shut down at some point, but for now I'm good.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I had a client pull me out of retirement to perform a 2 month exterior which was scheduled to begin on April 1st. I had received a text message from the client earlier this morning indicating that her son had contracted COVID-19, and will need to push things off until May. The son is now recovering in Manhattan after a tough bout with the virus. The balance of the family moved to their Hampton’s summer home where they’ve self quarantined. 

Prior to the pandemic, I’d spent the better portion of 3 months prepping my home which was scheduled to be listed for sale on April 15th. I was also in negotiations on the purchase of a new home in FL with hopes of relocating on or about Memorial Day. 

With business shutdowns here in NY, everything is on hold for what appears to be an indefinite period. Even if I could list it, I wouldn’t want to place myself or my family at risk by showing the house. I also suspect that real estate values might come crashing down in this region after all is said and done. Trying to keep a positive attitude through all this..I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t scared though..

Disaster Unemployment Assistance is now available to self employed business owners in NY.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I do a lot of work for the biggest real estate guy in our area. To say he moves and owns a massive amount of property would be an understatement. When I've worked in his own house and he's there his cel never ever stops going off.


I was asking his wife the other day how he's dealing with people wanting him to come and look at their house, etc. since I'm still getting calls from bone heads. She said his phone has stopped ringing. Completely. That's not good at all.


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## Pray4surf (Oct 18, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> At the end of the day, here in Ontario construction including residential is allowed to continue. It might get shut down at some point, but for now I'm good.


I work in MD/DC/VA and we fall under the "essentials" that are allowed to work. 
One of my painters was approached by a resident of the building we're working in and proceeded to tell him that he should be at home like most others are. This is the second time that someone took umbrage with us working in this building. 
I only have two painters in the unit and we access the building through the garage freight elevator which fortunately is only a few steps from my clients place. All materials have been on site for months and there are no other trades on site. 

It's tough to listen people tell you that you're part of the problem especially when the people being critical have the ability to work from home.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> Endeavor to persevere, Lynn.
> 
> BTW, I worked on a job with the “Pony tail through the cap” faux finisher a couple of weeks ago. Hadn’t seen her in about 10 years.
> 
> ...



Quite a few of us cannot forget ‘pony tail girl’. I’m sure you behaved yourself like the gentleman you are.

As far as persevering, I was one of a few to make it through the housing crash. I’m not going to be that fortunate this time. There’s one big fat snowball coming down the mountain aimed at me.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Schools and Churches are closed...

Yeah!!! By the grace of God (no pun intended) I had two big jobs contracted to begin after 3-15-20.
One is a new school gym with dining hall, classrooms, locker rooms, kitchen etc.
The other is an old church where we will be texturing, painting and doing other repairs.
The church elders are excited that I can be doing this while the building is not in use. I'm kinda happy about not having to clean up each Friday for weekend services.
I'm not gloating. I have no confirmed projects beyond these two, but they will get me out of the house and my mind off local and national concerns for a while.
I am so grateful for the work. I take being busy for granted; even stress about it most of the time.


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## deadend (Aug 1, 2013)

...sending my application this evening...I'm against debt but as you said...this is likely a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a FORGIVABLE 3.75% loan...no payments for a year and terms up to 30yrs...at minimum is the $10k grant for first million applicants...beyond that with some discipline and the loan may very well be a very smart option going forward...




juanvaldez said:


> I went ahead and applied for a SBA disaster loan for economic distress yesterday. I’ll see what happens hopefully soon. Could be a good option for those of us w employees that maybe don’t want to lay them off or have them file unemployment, but just kinda want to wait out the storm CV.
> We have work to do but I kinda just want to wait it out. This could drag on for quite a while and a loan at 30 yrs/3.75% is a good option to have in the bank.
> #justincase
> 
> ...


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Are you allowed to do exteriors. Masschusetts start its "shelter in place" today and I am under the impression that I cannot do even outside work.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


Pete, somehow I missed your question. Yes, we are allowed to do exteriors but so many people are "experts" now on what is considered essential that if I'm up on a ladder I'm getting all kinds of snide remarks, some jokingly, but some quite serious. My local SW store is getting bashed for being open even though they are still only doing phone-in orders and then curbside pickup.
@Pray4surf stated farther down in the thread that they too are facing "umbrage" for doing work that is still considered, "essential."


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

On the CRA website for Newfounland Canada, there was post for construction workers being essential. Obviously situational. There was guidelines for jobsite distancing and cleanliness. One trade at a time, No jackets inside. Leave them in your car. etc, etc.
I'm still freaked out though. Some clients want me to come do quotes for empty places which is ideal, but still feal unethical about actually leaving the house. It's a lot of work staying sanitized!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

In terms of essential work, the following link, by US Home Land Security March 19, 2020, describes areas of the work force that should continue working. This emergency guideline does not describe work that can't, or shouldn't be done. https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/...Critical-Infrastructure-Workers-1-20-508c.pdf

Local jurisdictions apparently determine their own policies in terms of what remains open, or not, outside of the essentials described by the federal government. 

The point of non essentials is to minimize close contact among people. Unless spelled out by a local government to limit, or terminate movement among construction workers, there are no guidelines that say you are restricted to paint a house.

In CA, the Big Box Hardware stores are still open. This implies the ability for the building sector to continue working as long as their activities aren't contributing directly to the spread of Covid 19.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Here is the quote from the just update on March 28 CISA. 

https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce

Workers such as plumbers, electricians, exterminators, builders, contractors, HVAC Technicians, landscapers, and other service providers who provide services that are necessary to maintaining the safety, sanitation, and essential operation of residences, businesses and buildings such as hospitals, senior living facilities, any temporary construction required to support COVID-19 response.

The question is, is painting essential to operation of homes? Color changing or updating an interior, probably not. Exterior painting? Maybe????


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

All non-emergency construction is basically stopped in Michigan.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

im just gonna enjoy the time away from the brush and not worry


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

DeanV said:


> All non-emergency construction is basically stopped in Michigan.


I wish I could, but I have 7 mouths to feed, even with savings in reserve, things could get skinny after a while.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

I don't know about anywhere else but in this area, Car Dealerships are closed, but you can go in and do a test drive and dicker with the salespeople as long as you set up an appointment!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Here is the quote from the just update on March 28 CISA.
> 
> https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce
> 
> ...


In the CISA memorandum, I read where sub categories, not specifically described, can be considered related to essential work. Where I work, painting has always been considered part of a hygiene program, not just for repairs, or aesthetics. Residential painting may have a more difficult time making that argument. But as I mentioned, if it isn't spelled out as a restricted activity, what prevents anyone from painting in an empty home or exterior? 

Outside of an actual criminal violation, I don't think ethics, morality, consideration, conscientiousness, agreeableness, or any other virtuous attribution should be enough to prevent people from putting food on their table. Now, common sense is another thing. If you're sick, stay home. And if the only work opportunity available requires you to be in crowds, or around potentially sick people, stay home! And always wash your hands. Don't cough, spit, sneeze, or rub your bare hands on your face.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

DeanV said:


> Here is the quote from the just update on March 28 CISA.
> 
> https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce
> 
> ...



I see it Painting as necessary to the safety sanitation and security of residences. Depends on how you see it. A grey or gray area right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

After this there will probably be a bigger shift towards anti microbe coatings, hospital paints like sw harmony and paint shield ( both crappy products ) Might see less flat in the future. Stay well.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

DeanV said:


> Here is the quote from the just update on March 28 CISA.
> 
> https://www.cisa.gov/publication/guidance-essential-critical-infrastructure-workforce
> 
> ...


I would say email that to your attorney and have him explain it to you in plain English!


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## Geddy L (May 11, 2013)

I'm in CT,about an hour away from NYC,to say I'm in "ground zero"
is an understatement.Am I scared?,of course,but I still have customers who are saying that if I do jobs alone,they don't mind if I do them.The other day a closed restaurant owner called and wants the restaurant painted.I would prefer to stay home and be safe,but the fact of the matter is I have to make money for my family.I'm extremely careful,I wear gloves,mask etc.If the work is there,I'll do it..


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I've been very lucky in the sense that I've been in complete isolation at work for months now. Nobody else comes in the buildings I've been working in except for me. Today that changes as an unruly crew of electricians and plumbers are showing up. I know these guys as they're about as blunt as a ball peen hammer.


Hopefully people are cooperative and sensitive to the current situation. I'll have to step up the 3F rule I learned while working in the prison system. Firm fair and friendly. I personally added an F to the list.


Don't F with me.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I haven't worked for 10 days with no work on the horizon. I'm guessing it will pick up by June-1.

scary


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Same here. I'm afraid it may not with all the money spent on hoarding and loss of jobs. My best months are during this time. 100 to 0.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

This is going to be a major economic disruption for some time. We have a whole summer's worth of exterior booked, but I'd bet 90% will cancel.

Despite what we might think, painting is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of life. Mortgage, groceries, property tax...just about anything in the whole universe is more important than repainting the house.

Many of us are going to go out of business.

I really dislike being a debbie-downer, but this is a real problem. Hopefully, we can figure this stupid virus out and get back to work before too much time passes.

Otherwise, we'll see a 2008 contraction in building trades, where the well-capitalized survive to prosper and the lackadaisical will wilt. I made it through that one and I'll make it through this one.

If you can, take advantage of the stimulus monies. We're going to end up paying it all back eventually. I decided against the payroll protection part, because of extenuating circumstance, but you should be looking into it.

Call your CPA to do the application process for you. That is their job to navigate federal bureaucracy. Your odds of getting some sort of money by yourself are probably pretty slim.

Stay home: I understand how it is to be broke, but if everyone can just stay home, it'll be over sooner rather than later. That seems to be the best course of action. We can be broke for a year or broke for a couple months.

Now I might not be a micro-economist, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express...2 years ago...well before coronovirus.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Poof. In a flash, my empty building bubble got burst yesterday. I'm done as well. C'est la vie.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Poof. In a flash, my empty building bubble got burst yesterday. I'm done as well. C'est la vie.


Electricians heated out the scene?! Dang


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Electricians heated out the scene?! Dang



Nah. Woman who owns the house that's gonna be her cottage when it's done shut the job down. She doesn't live anywhere near here. Says she's concerned about me working in there alone. She also saw the announcement that all residential construction is suspended. I explained that if a job is in progress and near completion it can continue, but she wants me to finish it when things get better.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ParamountPaint said:


> This is going to be a major economic disruption for some time. We have a whole summer's worth of exterior booked, but I'd bet 90% will cancel.
> 
> Despite what we might think, painting is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of life. Mortgage, groceries, property tax...just about anything in the whole universe is more important than repainting the house.
> 
> ...


I think painters, at least of exteriors, are going to have to take similar steps that I see electricians, HVAC people, and plumbers adopting - reassuring their customers that they can still attend to jobs and describing the steps they are taking to try and ensure safety to both themselves and the customers. True, painting isn't an emergency service like those can be, still, many people will be fine with proceeding if they feel it will be safe. 

Interiors jobs, not so much.

We are scheduled to have new wood floors installed the middle of next month. We are proceeding mainly because we were going to have to be out of that area of the house anyway. We have a full downstairs we can relocate to and sequester ourselves in, plus, we can also bring our camp trailer out of storage and park it on our property and live out of for the two weeks it will take.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

I'm going to start some roofing jobs alone. I've got two personal ones and various ones for family (that have been patiently waiting for us to have some downtime).

Well, downtime is here, so I may as well go do them. They are paying work, so it couldn't hurt and probably be a win-win for everyone. If things look rosier, I might even do the ones on my own properties.

I did get a random work call (first one in at least a week) to remodel a bathroom and do something with a barn that I'm unclear about. The bathroom will have to wait, but the barn could be somethinged (whatever it is that needs done about). I'll go check it out and see.

I'll tell you what, though. I'm not really programmed to sit at home for weeks on end. I can't bring myself to watch TV (which I've never been into) and I've about explored most corners of the internet that hold interest. I do enjoy reading books, but not for 16hrs a day.

I had some grand ambitions about working on my own properties, but as this has intensified, I'm pretty loath to part with the cash outlays to do so. I have an 1860 building that needs new roof and windows: roof is not bad, but it's about $40K for the windows, which is money I don't really want to part with at the moment. The roof materials are only about $3k, so I might do it after I do the paying ones.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Also, another question: Has anyone seen any delays on corporate A/Rs?

I've got some 30 day and 60 day accounts coming due soon. I've got my fingers crossed that they will pay as usual, but I'm also a tad concerned about delays in the pipeline.

Luckily, none are retail business accounts. They are all financial institutions, but I wouldn't put it past that bunch to come up with excuses to delay.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

ParamountPaint said:


> Luckily, none are retail business accounts. They are all financial institutions, but I wouldn't put it past that bunch to come up with excuses to delay.


A bank using the excuse "We don't have the money to pay you right now???:surprise:

That's when you know things are bad!!!

Good luck....


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Nah. Woman who owns the house that's gonna be her cottage when it's done shut the job down. She doesn't live anywhere near here. Says she's concerned about me working in there alone. She also saw the announcement that all residential construction is suspended. I explained that if a job is in progress and near completion it can continue, but she wants me to finish it when things get better.


Totally understandable, but if there were a perfect situation to keep life/economy moving forward, that would be it..
I also have a couple jobs like this, but am taking it more serious than some of the trades. Everytime I have to fill up with gas or touch a door handle seems like a big moment and you actually do have to take precautions..
If another trades person is careless, stopping for coffee and snacks before the jobsite. Not washing his hands etc. and your on the job after him there could be consequences. So much to think about just getting from A to B..


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Anyone in Canada looking into the CEBA? $40K loan, no scheduled minimum payments, $10K forgivable if balance is paid in full by end of 2022. I'm not sure who's eligible, what information you have to provide. Very little information about it at this point from what I can see. I would think everyone would be applying if they are just giving away $10K if you were to just hang on to it and pay it off. 



https://www.td.com/ca/en/personal-banking/covid-19/small-business-relief/


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Got this text from a great customer today.


"Hey Bill how are you guys doing? Please don't be offended by my question... Has work slowed down and are things getting tight? If so, could we pre pay you for painting that we will get done some time in the future (when Covid 19 decides to leave us all)? Regards and best wishes, Paul."


I've painted two houses for these folks. Top to bottom. Everything. They've got nothing left that needs painting. I've painted their two daughters homes when they got married and bought houses.


Very generous offer from some wonderful people. Couldn't believe it when I read it. Brought a tear to my wife's eye when I read it to her. I declined, but thanked them graciously.


There really are some very kind people out there.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Got this text from a great customer today.
> 
> 
> "Hey Bill how are you guys doing? Please don't be offended by my question... Has work slowed down and are things getting tight? If so, could we pre pay you for painting that we will get done some time in the future (when Covid 19 decides to leave us all)? Regards and best wishes, Paul."
> ...


Wow! that is vey considerate and generous of them. That's a great example of people helping people through this crisis. Thanks for posting that.


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## AnthonyFalzon (Feb 24, 2020)

With all commercial properties closed, it will be a good opportunity for commercial painting and decorating especially office painting. Therefore, i'd imagine bigger brands looking to get renovations done during this period of no trading.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Got this text from a great customer today.
> 
> 
> "Hey Bill how are you guys doing? Please don't be offended by my question... Has work slowed down and are things getting tight? If so, could we pre pay you for painting that we will get done some time in the future (when Covid 19 decides to leave us all)? Regards and best wishes, Paul."
> ...



That right there goes to show your investment in the lives of your clients. From all my booked clients, no one has cancelled, all have said just keep us on the books, this will pass.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

AnthonyFalzon said:


> With all commercial properties closed, it will be a good opportunity for commercial painting and decorating especially office painting. Therefore, i'd imagine bigger brands looking to get renovations done during this period of no trading.



In the short term, I would say no to this. Commercial painting generally involves some higher level of "ok's" and its already on the budget agenda. I highly doubt commercial clients will use this time to spruce up the office on a whim. Long term, I think we will see lots of downsizing for offices. People who can work at home away from the office will be adjusting and be able to continue after this is all said and done. So, I see plenty of movement downward, but in a good way, as companies seek smaller spaces that will need renovation and larger offices that can be cut up for multiple clients. My 2c


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## Ken Odell (Mar 29, 2013)

I spoke with my attorney (in Pa) and he said that the governor has no legal authority to tell anyone not to work as we do not live in a dictatorship (yet). He said the worst that could happen is that we could be given a warning. I have ONLY exterior work and have laid off my guys and am contemplating next moves. The rub for me is that in Pa landscapers are deemed "essential" and they have just as much interaction with ho's as we would doing exterior work. My attorney also said that exterior work can be considered "repair" work just as a plumbing leak or an electrical short. We have been sitting on our hands for three weeks now, because I think it is the right thing to do, but am not sure how long I can have no income. The whole determination of who is "essential" and who is not seems arbitrary and I have NO FEAR about the liquor control board rolling up and handcuffing me. : )


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Ken Odell said:


> I spoke with my attorney (in Pa) and he said that the governor has no legal authority to tell anyone not to work as we do not live in a dictatorship (yet). He said the worst that could happen is that we could be given a warning. I have ONLY exterior work and have laid off my guys and am contemplating next moves. The rub for me is that in Pa landscapers are deemed "essential" and they have just as much interaction with ho's as we would doing exterior work. My attorney also said that exterior work can be considered "repair" work just as a plumbing leak or an electrical short. We have been sitting on our hands for three weeks now, because I think it is the right thing to do, but am not sure how long I can have no income. The whole determination of who is "essential" and who is not seems arbitrary and I have NO FEAR about the liquor control board rolling up and handcuffing me. : )


Supposedly the City of Chicago can fine a business with non-essential workers up to $10,000 for staying open.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200327-3opkju2p3bdaza35ohueplo5ze-story.html


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Brushman4 said:


> Supposedly the City of Chicago can fine a business with non-essential workers up to $10,000 for staying open.
> https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200327-3opkju2p3bdaza35ohueplo5ze-story.html


I just read the mayor of Chicago went out to get a haircut, and hear I am looking like one of the freaking beatles.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> I just read the mayor of Chicago went out to get a haircut, and hear I am looking like one of the freaking beatles.


Ya, and let me tell you she got a lot of flak for doing so, not exactly a good example of social distancing.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Brushman4 said:


> Ya, and let me tell you she got a lot of flak for doing so, not exactly a good example of social distancing.


did they shut the barber shop?


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh please, like Mayor Daley never did anything scandalous. It’s a haircut.

She probably had the stylist come to her. It was reported they had masks and gloves.


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Anyone in Canada looking into the CEBA? $40K loan, no scheduled minimum payments, $10K forgivable if balance is paid in full by end of 2022. I'm not sure who's eligible, what information you have to provide. Very little information about it at this point from what I can see. I would think everyone would be applying if they are just giving away $10K if you were to just hang on to it and pay it off.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.td.com/ca/en/personal-banking/covid-19/small-business-relief/


I was going to look into this, but the ads I hear about it they claim the money has to directly related to a cost of Corona. Don't really know what that means. I don't think the government even knows what you need.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Vinyl 54X said:


> I just read the mayor of Chicago went out to get a haircut, and hear I am looking like one of the freaking beatles.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

We have a tree removal crew of about eight guys working on the property directly behind us. Not really close to each other but imagine it varies.

Down at the end of our cul-d-sac is a siding crew putting Hardi-Plank on a house. Crew of four working pretty bunched up at times. Fiber dust is drifting through the neighborhood from the circular saw but none of them is wearing any kind of mask or respirator. IMO, that is pretty fricken' stupid - CV19 or not.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

RH said:


> We have a tree removal crew of about eight guys working on the property directly behind us. Not really close to each other but imagine it varies.
> 
> Down at the end of our cul-d-sac is a siding crew putting Hardi-Plank on a house. Crew of four working pretty bunched up at times. Fiber dust is drifting through the neighborhood from the circular saw but none of them is wearing any kind of mask or respirator. IMO, that is pretty fricken' stupid - CV19 or not.


Very dumb. It's like they don't care about their own future health (Hardiboard contains Silica) or their present health (reference: Global Pandemic).


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Yesterday, A cop pulled over somebody in front of my neighbors house. Within 20 minutes there were 4 police cars, another 20 minutes and the person who was pulled over was gone. There were still 4 cops chatting it up in the street, no masks. A lot of talk not much enforcement.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> did they shut the barber shop?


I believe they came to her home, I wonder if her wife and daughter got one too?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Holland said:


>


I'm really liking that look, maybe it will become a trendsetter.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

So are any of you guys working still in a state with a shelter-in-place in effect? I was working up until last week, and was actually feeling a bit guilty the last few days as I could almost feel people watching me work from neighboring houses, people walking by, etc and wondering why I was still working. So I shut down.

Now it's a beautiful 60° day, ideal exterior weather, and I'm feeling kinda guilty that I'm collecting unemployment for not doing anything!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Our governor finally issued a shelter in place order Monday. I got an email from the state saying we're exempt so I'm still working so far. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Brushman4 said:


> I believe they came to her home, I wonder if her wife and daughter got one too?


Her hairstyle indicated to me that she may have a wife.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gracobucks said:


> I was going to look into this, but the ads I hear about it they claim the money has to directly related to a cost of Corona. Don't really know what that means. I don't think the government even knows what you need.





Very little information about it. Although I would imagine a wide range could be attributed to Cvid. Either way, I'm back up and running in empty buildings again for now and if things go right for the next while as well.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Holland said:


> Very dumb. It's like they don't care about their own future health (Hardiboard contains Silica) or their present health (reference: Global Pandemic).


Yeah, I did all the replacement siding (Hardi) on my own place a number of years ago and I lived in my respirator. Hated seeing clouds of that stuff floating through the area whenever I used my circular saw on lt. Finally had enough and went and bought one of the cement board shears. One of the best purchases I ever made.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Her hairstyle indicated to me that she may have a wife.


She most definitely does!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Very little information about it. Although I would imagine a wide range could be attributed to Cvid. Either way, I'm back up and running in empty buildings again for now and if things go right for the next while as well.


I was also just discussing this with other contractor peeps. It does say for operating costs due to Covid19. Was thinking Maybe just get it and put in another bank account, maybe one that acrues interest? Hang on to it, "just in case" then pay it back. Just don't blow it all if you don't have to..My only question is would the "loan" come in form of cash or would it be all paperwork..?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I was also just discussing this with other contractor peeps. It does say for operating costs due to Covid19. Was thinking Maybe just get it and put in another bank account, maybe one that acrues interest? Hang on to it, "just in case" then pay it back. Just don't blow it all if you don't have to..My only question is would the "loan" come in form of cash or would it be all paperwork..?



That's what I was thinking of doing as well. Still no new information about it, just "Come back soon".


6 half lines of information describing a $40000 loan.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Her hairstyle indicated to me that she may have a wife.


https://gossipgist.com/lori-lightfoot


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Correct me if I’m wrong Chicago peeps, it was never a secret that Mayor Lightfoot is gay. She openly ran as gay, right? 

So what’s the big deal?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong Chicago peeps, it was never a secret that Mayor Lightfoot is gay. She openly ran as gay, right?
> 
> So what’s the big deal?


No big deal for me, but others out of the area may not know.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> No big deal for me, but others out of the area may not know.


Guess it’s a good thing she’s got the haircut to let those out of towners know then. lain: womp womp


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

fauxlynn said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong Chicago peeps, it was never a secret that Mayor Lightfoot is gay. She openly ran as gay, right?
> 
> So what’s the big deal?


No big deal. I didn't know how she ran I thought that emanual guy was still mayor. Until I saw the yahoo article about the haircut. It had her picture. I thought the doo was a little high and tight. And in my own head I took a guess and a few moments later brushman said it was so. I have no issues with the subject. I wish everybody peace, love and happiness. I just reserve the right to goof on any politicians hair be it blagovitch, trump or Maxine waters. If the goofy hair defines them it's fair game.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Vinyl 54X said:


> No big deal. I didn't know how she ran I thought that emanual guy was still mayor. Until I saw the yahoo article about the haircut. It had her picture. I thought the doo was a little high and tight. And in my own head I took a guess and a few moments later brushman said it was so. I have no issues with the subject. I wish everybody peace, love and happiness. I just reserve the right to goof on any politicians hair be it blagovitch, trump or Maxine waters. If the goofy hair defines them it's fair game.


Oh, I must’ve missed the part where you goofed on her hair. I thought you were stereotyping her based on her coif. But hey, it’s 2020! Nobody does that anymore.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Vinyl 54X said:


> No big deal. I didn't know how she ran I thought that emanual guy was still mayor. Until I saw the yahoo article about the haircut. It had her picture. I thought the doo was a little high and tight. And in my own head I took a guess and a few moments later brushman said it was so. I have no issues with the subject. I wish everybody peace, love and happiness. I just reserve the right to goof on any politicians hair be it blagovitch, trump or Maxine waters. If the goofy hair defines them it's fair game.


Blagojevich's hair is no longer black!
https://www.shutterstock.com/editor...son-release-chicago-usa-19-feb-2020-10561551b


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

To the point of the SBA loans:

My wife's company applied for a payroll protection loan on the first day it became available. We haven't seen any money yet from there.

This morning, my accountant called me and advised me to apply for an EIDL loan (letting them do the applying). Supposedly, the first 10K can be forgiven as a grant. I don't really follow the technicalities of such things (which is why I have a CPA). I'm pretty much going along with whatever advice they give me. Far be it from me to express expertise in tax law and federal programs...that's the reason to have a CPA in the first place.

Here's what I think about the whole thing: an individual has a close to zero percent chance of taking advantage of these programs on their own. The process is ever changing and very complex, so I'd take it to your CPA or find one to do it for you.

Hopefully, by the time everyone gets all this free money (which we'll end up paying for one way or the other), we'll be back to work anyway.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is what I am worried about, by the time the money gets here, it will be too late to use it for its intended purposes.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

DeanV said:


> That is what I am worried about, by the time the money gets here, it will be too late to use it for its intended purposes.


It's already too late. How many people are paying their employees to stay at home and do no work?

If the government decrees you can't work, that's on them. We had months of work lined up to do. If you go and give a decree that you can't do it, I'd like to get some of my tax money back in exchange.

I gave them that money on good faith (begrudgingly) and in return we're told to stay home and not work. I want some of it back.

Sure, I'll sit in my house for a month or two, but you'd better return some of it.

*Not directed at DeanV, but just expressing frustration with the whole thing.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Wolfgang said:


> Here's the kicker, or kick in the a55; they get this virus under control. How long that takes is anyone's guess. Everybody is going to be trying to get back on their feet, and that is going to tie up the funds they'd have available for their projects. It may be longer than a couple of months.


I believe many businesses are going to go out of business. 
This virus may affect earning a living and 'living life as we once did' for years. 

The only solution to the current state or the world - is to create a vaccine for Covid-19. Until then, people will be on their toes regarding spending $ and bringing strangers into their homes.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

HC-Raad said:


> I believe many businesses are going to go out of business.
> This virus may affect earning a living and 'living life as we once did' for years.
> 
> The only solution to the current state or the world - is to create a vaccine for Covid-19. Until then, people will be on their toes regarding spending $ and bringing strangers into their homes.



Yup, and hope that it doesn't mutate or continue to do so. I've been hearing there are somewhere between 2 and 9 different variants around the world. 



I agree this is gonna go on for years. In some regard. The amount of money (obviously necessary) that's being thrown at this is staggering. If I had kids, they would go to their graves paying for this. Can't imagine how high taxes are going to be raised in the near future.


I think that in terms of social mores are concerned, people are definitely going to be more conscious of who is coming into their homes, what they're doing, what they're touching, when they were there, etc.


People keep saying they can't wait till things go back to normal. There is no normal yet. It hasn't been created. The old normal is definitely gone.


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## SolidXter (Apr 11, 2020)

Maybe


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Some people in Korea who have already recovered from Covid-19 are testing positive for it again! This is worrisome. 

The thinking was once you get it you are safe to go back to work because of an immunity to the virus. I assume they are testing positive for the same thing so it's not a mutated strain. I wonder if they are being tested positive with little or no symptoms or illness? This would mean they have no idea they are spreading the virus to others. This is like a horror film in real life.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Ha! So I talked about being ‘corona virus free’ certified and BAM!, Fauci said something similar.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> Some people in Korea who have already recovered from Covid-19 are testing positive for it again! This is worrisome.
> 
> They thinking was once you get it you are safe to go back to work because of an immunity to the virus. I assume they are testing positive for the same thing so it's not a mutated strain. I wonder if they are being tested positive with little or no symptoms or illness? This would mean they have no idea they are spreading the virus to others. This is like a horror film in real life.


The are testing positive again, they are still coming up positive. Big difference. I heard Dr. Agus who's studying the virus discuss this. He said some people are testing positive up to 30 days after showing symptoms. They aren't contagious and won't get it again there's just some bits of it still in their system which is why they still test positive.

He said the big question is how long immunity will last for after getting it. Could be a year, two years, life, who knows its anyone's guess at this point. He also said 50% of people don't show any symptoms at all, which is crazy. You could have been exposed and immune without even knowing which is why cheap and easy immunity tests need to happen soon if we want to get everything back up and running. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

SolidXter said:


> Also, another amateur question. Why do all painters and tradesmen wrap their trucks and vans with their logos? I get that blank white cargo vans are sketchy, but if you wrap your van with your Logo, 1. Aren't you basically just doxxing yourself when you park at home? 2. Does it really get you that much more business? 3. Is it a liability, that if someone doesn't like your driving or something that it will leave a sour taste in potentially 1000s of peoples mouths? Is it just that having a wrapped van/truck is just an industry standard and is what is expected, like a minimum requirement?


Working out of an unlabeled vehicle is like working in the dark: You know who you are and what you're doing...but nobody else does.


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## SolidXter (Apr 11, 2020)

Holland said:


> Working out of an unlabeled vehicle is like working in the dark: You know who you are and what you're doing...but nobody else does.


Thanks for the reply, but does driving a vehicle with company name and logo really get you that much more business? Is it more of an industry standard where people see that you have a presence and your not just a listing on Google or a flyer in the mail, make your business a bit more real?


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

SolidXter said:


> Thanks for the reply, but does driving a vehicle with company name and logo really get you that much more business? Is it more of an industry standard where people see that you have a presence and your not just a listing on Google or a flyer in the mail, make your business a bit more real?



I kinda agree. I’ve worked with but mostly without, signage for quite a while. When I’ve had signs on truck, some towns around me that I work in occasionally, send their code enforcement out and about. Sometimes if they see a truck labeled, they will stop and check to see if you have a business license in their city. If not, one in particular, will come to the door, ask for you to your customer, ask about your license, and literally make you goto city hall and pay for one, plus any penalty. Full money grab!! 
Because of that, I pretty much just ride unlabeled. I’ve got a lot of referral work all over my area. If I have to get a business license for 5 other neighboring cities I’d re-consider this job. 
I realize it makes you appear more professional and legit, but doesn’t always make you more money!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

You guys are painters right?

Thats construction isnt it?

Thats essential business.why are you idle?


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

propainterJ said:


> You guys are painters right?
> 
> Thats construction isnt it?
> 
> Thats essential business.why are you idle?


Because Harry and Susie Homeowner don't want a bunch of yahoos running around their house right now. They also may be laid off and not looking to spend money to "freshen up" the dining room.

Because businesses are shuttered. They're not looking to repaint, as they are more concerned with covering their overhead without any income.

You sound either tone-deaf or foolish. If you have new construction work, well, maybe you can work, but it all varies state to state.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Propainterj it depends on what state you live in. In my state (wa) construction is not considered essential unless its an emergency repair or supports an essential business. 

Having said that there is a town up the road from here where the city manager issued a memo stating that residential construction could continue, and as of Friday it was. It seems like if enforcement is really a case by case basis.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

propainterJ said:


> You guys are painters right?
> 
> Thats construction isnt it?
> 
> Thats essential business.why are you idle?



In CA to me it’s a gray area. Painters aren’t technically spelled out as essential however by painting we do keep things secure, and continue a healthy environment. So to me we are essential. I’m not idle. I’ve got work. I have clients and contractors that have work as well. It’s more about scheduling and being safe at this point. Work em in a little by little, so as not to lose the job but get things done. Clients definitely understand. Got kids at home too being distance schooled and a wife working from home. So I do need to stay at home quite a bit to help. Good luck to you!!!
Who knows what’s going to happen. Work May totally die, or continue. Staying healthy is key. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

SolidXter said:


> I'm new to PaintTalk, I joined cause I recently got hired at a local painting company in Canada. I did some training and was supposed to start work next week actually, but it got postponed indefinitely, maybe even until 2021 or 2022. Trudeau said things won't got back to normal until vaccine comes which could be another 18 months. I'm getting my first $2000 check in 2 weeks and will get another $6000 (Canadian money) by August. Is there really anything to do with this money if everybody gets it? Buy Gold if there is significant inflation? My best guess is that after the 1st wave passes sometime this year, they will semi-reopen the economy with lots of social distancing and all.
> 
> Before, I used to work in a restaurant, we all got minimum wage ($14 an hour) and nobody got more than 30 hours a week. Quite literally everybody at the restaurant is now making more money doing nothing then they were working a job they hated (they were open about it). How are we going to convince a significant portion of the population to go back to work at these jobs weather it be few months or a few years? Most restaurants that close won't comeback, restaurants buy from different food suppliers than retail.
> 
> ...


And why is the sky blue?


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

ParamountPaint said:


> Because Harry and Susie Homeowner don't want a bunch of yahoos running around their house right now. They also may be laid off and not looking to spend money to "freshen up" the dining room.
> 
> Because businesses are shuttered. They're not looking to repaint, as they are more concerned with covering their overhead without any income.
> 
> You sound either tone-deaf or foolish. If you have new construction work, well, maybe you can work, but it all varies state to state.



Edited for a breach of forum rules.


Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on PaintTalk.com. Ideas and opinions may be challenged, but name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause your account to be banned.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

propainterJ said:


> You guys are painters right?
> 
> Thats construction isnt it?
> 
> Thats essential business.why are you idle?


That's a state by state call....not doubt about it in PA. Painting is non essential in PA and you can't legally work.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I do mostly repaints. I wouldn't consider that construction. It's a service business. 

The folks in new construction certainly are but not me, and 80% of painters who repaint offices, homes, condos, apt's, commercial,industrial, etc.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

I am very surprised - this week I got 4 requests for estimates. That's a good sign.


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## SolidXter (Apr 11, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> And why is the sky blue?


What do you mean by that? (technically I think it's because the sky reflects blue light or something)


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

HC-Raad said:


> I am very surprised - this week I got 4 requests for estimates. That's a good sign.


Good for you. Feast before the famine perhaps?

If I had any advice I would recommend cutting your prices by 40-50% if you want to win the bids. 3 weeks ago I was in a similar position and only won 20% of the bids despite slashing prices by 20-25%. I'd be tickled pink just to be working right now.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> I do mostly repaints. I wouldn't consider that construction. It's a service business.
> 
> The folks in new construction certainly are but not me, and 80% of painters who repaint offices, homes, condos, apt's, commercial,industrial, etc.



I've been asking this question for years now. What is a construction site? Nobody has ever been able to give me an answer. Place I'm working on right now is a renovation. There's chop saws out, circ saws, sawzalls, lumber all over the place, stacks of drywall, etc. Then there's all my stuff. That to me is a construction site. But at what point when reducing that list does it cease to be a construction site?


I agree with you to a large extent. Most of the time I'd say my job sites would not necessarily be considered construction sites. But right now that determination is what could completely shut me down. Are we, in general considered property maintenance, service or construction?


In Ontario, property maintenance supposedly is allowed to continue. Residential construction if it was started before April 4 is allowed to continue. Health care construction is eligible to continue.


Miraculously I've managed to find yet another empty building in the middle of farming country someone wants me to paint. Nobody has lived there since November. I could start it later this week but I'm not sure whether I'm allowed and I'm scared to ask.


I'm not even sure if we're allowed to do any exterior stuff if things remain exactly the way they are right now.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> Good for you. Feast before the famine perhaps?
> 
> If I had any advice I would recommend cutting your prices by 40-50% if you want to win the bids. 3 weeks ago I was in a similar position and only won 20% of the bids despite slashing prices by 20-25%. I'd be tickled pink just to be working right now.



That's absolutely brutal to hear. If I had to drop my prices by 50%, I'd hang up my brush and find something else to do. No idea what it'd be, but there's no way I'm going back to what I made almost 20 years ago. That being said, I do live in an economic bubble. Local nuclear power plant pays their guys and gals fortunes. They basically feed this town and most of the towns surrounding us.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> I do mostly repaints. I wouldn't consider that construction. It's a service business.
> 
> The folks in new construction certainly are but not me, and 80% of painters who repaint offices, homes, condos, apt's, commercial,industrial, etc.


NAICS code 238230 for painting & wall covering contractors falls within the construction industry sector. The work performed may include new work, additions, alterations, maintenance, and repairs...so I think.


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

No calls in two weeks. "Harry and Susie homeowner" definitely doesn't want me around.... or can't afford it.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Around here, all construction except public works projects are shut down. No new homes. No repaints. No exterior landscaping, no exterior painting, etc either.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> Good for you. Feast before the famine perhaps?
> 
> If I had any advice *I would recommend cutting your prices by 40-50% if you want to win the bids*. 3 weeks ago I was in a similar position and only won 20% of the bids despite slashing prices by 20-25%. I'd be tickled pink just to be working right now.


Thanks for the tip however, I will go work at wal-mart for $14 per/hr, before I cut my prices by 50%. I normally am not the low price to begin with. 

Lucky me - I have $25,000 in my savings account. I will spend time painting my own home - and just wait it out!


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

There's always going to be work to do and people willing to pay to have it done.

However, on the residential side, our best customers are retirees. They have the money and no desire to do it themselves.

But, they dont want to catch this stupid virus, so there's that. Secondly, many retired folk live off of dividends on investments and other market returns. Market and dividends not good = less work for painters.

Commercial stuff is a wreck and will be for awhile. Wait until lease payments go unpaid and watch those dominoes fall.

I hate being a doom and gloom prognosticator, but every day that passes make it less likely that this is a temporary blip. I mean, you've got millions of people without work, and it happened in the span of a week and a half. The news is always carrying on how people dont have 400 to cover emergencies. $400...if the stories are true and people are that stretched, there's going to be a problem.

It starts as the 'shame on you' problem for not having any savings, but it spreads quickly. Rent...ain't got it. That's the next shoe to fall, if it isn't already falling.

Ripples on a pond.

Personally, I imagine I'm going to have some non paying tenants, so I've got to figure that into things. I cant really blame them, but I've got bills to pay as well, so I'll do what I can to make it work. I've got good reserves, but if it stretches out more than a couple months, I'll be looking real hard at options. I'm not willing to bankrupt my family to carry rentals with non-payng tenants.

There's not really any terrible consequences for being over prepared for things, on a reasonable level. I'm not talking having 15 metric tons of canned goods...just being prudent.

I did receive payment on a net 45 job 20 days early, which gives me hope that all is not lost. In any case, I've rolled up the entry mat, pulled the shades and am hunkering down for the moment. I've also got a 1yo, without a nanny at the moment, so she keeps me hopping.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

SolidXter said:


> What do you mean by that? (technically I think it's because the sky reflects blue light or something)


I just meant that was a lot to digest in 1 sitting...All that aside, I have magnets on my truck that I can remove when I want.
Rolling up to a jobsite with company logos is a good look.
A) The client can immediately see that you mean business.
B) The nosey neighbors can see that your not just some creep in a white Van cruizing thier street while thier kids are playing outside.
C) I've actually had people come up to my window and ask for a business card.
D) Being a business man is a responsibility. If your driving like an idiot in a company vehical , yes ,it's a direct reflexion of your character and you have to keep that in mind the same way you ask your guys not to sware and talk s#$t on the job site.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've been asking this question for years now. What is a construction site? Nobody has ever been able to give me an answer. Place I'm working on right now is a renovation. There's chop saws out, circ saws, sawzalls, lumber all over the place, stacks of drywall, etc. Then there's all my stuff. That to me is a construction site. But at what point when reducing that list does it cease to be a construction site?
> 
> 
> I agree with you to a large extent. Most of the time I'd say my job sites would not necessarily be considered construction sites. But right now that determination is what could completely shut me down. Are we, in general considered property maintenance, service or construction?
> ...


Are the paint shops open in your area? Things are changing daily. You may ask your local paintshop what word on the street is..Sounds like some perfect gigs you have lined up. 
I've also got an empty full house reno I'm starting next week and another empty-ish apt. to paint.. trying to line up more shop work mostly.
All the same, I've got my own kitchen ripped apart right now and would just love to have this time to get it back together!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Are the paint shops open in your area? Things are changing daily. You may ask your local paintshop what word on the street is..Sounds like some perfect gigs you have lined up.
> I've also got an empty full house reno I'm starting next week and another empty-ish apt. to paint.. trying to line up more shop work mostly.
> All the same, I've got my own kitchen ripped apart right now and would just love to have this time to get it back together!



Only paint shop around here worth going to is Home Hardware. They're pretty incredible for being a paint department. Staff are amazing. Still open, curb side pickup only. Call your orders in, they put it in your car. When this is over, I'd be happy if they carried on this way! lol. I haven't been there in weeks though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Only paint shop around here worth going to is Home Hardware. They're pretty incredible for being a paint department. Staff are amazing. Still open, curb side pickup only. Call your orders in, they put it in your car. When this is over, I'd be happy if they carried on this way! lol. I haven't been there in weeks though.


Oh the curbside delivery is deadly! No waiting around in the store etc. although that used to be half of my social life. haha. I have alsways found the staff in the smaller HH stores to be super knowledgable! Usually some old timer that has seen it all.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Oh the curbside delivery is deadly! No waiting around in the store etc. although that used to be half of my social life. haha. I have alsways found the staff in the smaller HH stores to be super knowledgable! Usually some old timer that has seen it all.



If they sold beer, smokes and groceries I wouldn't need to go anywhere else. Your last sentence describes everyone in the store I go to.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

HC-Raad said:


> Thanks for the tip however,* I will go work at wal-mart for $14 per/hr, before I cut my prices by 50%.* I normally am not the low price to begin with.
> 
> Lucky me - I have $25,000 in my savings account. I will spend time painting my own home - and just wait it out!


Lots to unpack here with that response.

Remember the phrase, "Pride comes before the Fall'. Hubris can often lead to failure and loss.

I don't know about you but my labor rate before the pandemic was $60/hour. Half of that is obviously $30/hr. I don't like cutting prices, in fact I hate it, but tough times can produce tough decisions.

I'd rather earn $30/hr than sit at home and lose any momentum and/or savings I've put away. There can be a danger to inactivity and that includes my mental state. I simply feel better about myself when working.

Will earning $30/hr make me rich? Hell no but at least I won't be leaking oil in terms of my savings. I'll be holding firm until things get better. I'll be in a better position to come back than others who have closed their business for 2-3-4 months.


You would work at Walmart for $14/hr before you cut your price by 50%? That sounds like Hubrus to me, but to each his own.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> Lots to unpack here with that response.
> 
> Remember the phrase, "Pride comes before the Fall'. Hubris can often lead to failure and loss.
> 
> ...


I think you have missed my point. As of April 13th, I will not cut my prices by 50%. I will bid my normal rate - period. Just like always, if I get the job, I get the job, if I don't, I move on to the next estimate. I have enough coin in the bank, I am not at a point where I have to work at desperado rates. Besides that, my wife brings home $1,000 per week. Plus, I have applied for unemployment as an independent contractor. Wish me luck... :biggrin:

Do what you think is best for you. At $60 an hour (what you claim you charge), that's $125k per/year. I hope you have socked some of that cash in the bank. lain:

Carry on!


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

HC-Raad said:


> I think you have missed my point. As of April 13th, I will not cut my prices by 50%. I will bid my normal rate - period. Just like always, if I get the job, I get the job, if I don't, I move on to the next estimate. I have enough coin in the bank, I am not at a point where I have to work at desperado rates. Besides that, my wife brings home $1,000 per week. Plus, I have applied for unemployment as an independent contractor. Wish me luck... :biggrin:
> 
> Do what you think is best for you. At $60 an hour (what you claim you charge), that's $125k per/year. I hope you have socked some of that cash in the bank. lain:
> 
> Carry on!


I didn't miss your point. I just gave my 2 cents and you are free to take it or leave it.

You say you charge on the 'higher end' and think $60/hour is a lot? Ever heard of overhead and business expenses?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Each individual has to make their own decision on how they will adjust to doing business, or whether to even stay in business. For one to deride another on their decisions, for their reasons, just doesn't seem right.

Everyone handles their finances differently. Some owners are financially dependent from job to job. Others may have a savings. A lot of painters are dependent on their wife's job to supplement their income and in some cases to provide their health insurance.

For many years on this forum I always stressed the importance of a business plan. But then a business plan is only as good as how honestly it's drawn up and how diligently one sticks to it. If you walk into the paint store and make a impulsive buy on a new piece of equipment, then a plan probably isn't a viable part of your business.

But, now's not the time to be critical on another's choices of how they conduct their business.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Wolfgang said:


> Each individual has to make their own decision on how they will adjust to doing business, or whether to even stay in business. For one to deride another on their decisions, for their reasons, just doesn't seem right.
> 
> Everyone handles their finances differently. Some owners are financially dependent from job to job. Others may have a savings. A lot of painters are dependent on their wife's job to supplement their income and in some cases to provide their health insurance.
> 
> ...


Are you referring to my comment?

If so, I originally gave some good advice, based on my real life experience. He didn't have to come back with a smart azz response:

* "I'd work at Walmart for $14/hr before cutting my price by 50%.". *

Reread my FIRST post and don't try to come across as a wise man with some sage advice in these trying times. I don't appreciate the patronizing response. 

If it wasn't my post, ignore it.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> Are you referring to my comment?
> 
> If so, I originally gave some good advice, based on my real life experience. *He didn't have to come back with a smart azz response:*
> 
> * "I'd work at Walmart for $14/hr before cutting my price by 50%.". *


Mr Smith, do you think I was born yesterday? I am 58 y/o, I've been painting since 1978 and running my own business since 1989. I am financially secure and I also have a credit score of 816 and I have ZERO debt. So, worst case scenario, I can take out a loan -- again, worst case scenario. 

Like Wolf stated - you shouldn't tell another business how they should handle their finances. Your life experiences, tells you nothing of my life, or my situation. I am not you! Again, I'm a 58 y/o man, and I have a fairly high IQ. Thank you very much! :vs_cool:

I am not being a smart ass. I would go to Wal-Mart and stock shelves (over night), before I provide my services for 50% off - I am being serious! In 2008, when the economy tanked, guess what I was doing? Working over night, stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, and it was a steady paycheck. Not sporadic painting work at 50% off.

Lighten up!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Mr Smith said:


> Are you referring to my comment?
> 
> If so, I originally gave some good advice, based on my real life experience. He didn't have to come back with a smart azz response:
> 
> ...


LOL. I don't even find you worth patronizing if truth be told. Truth be told, I don't find anyone worth patronizing. I just put it out there. If it grated your butt, get over it.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

My rep at PPG told me they were temporarily shutting down about 300 stores in the US and lots in Europe and Asia. For a company that large to be shutting down full stores, that does not sound good.
And just for reference, in San Diego County there are three stores, they are closing two.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

mug said:


> No calls in two weeks. "Harry and Susie homeowner" definitely doesn't want me around.... or can't afford it.


The last job I looked at was about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It was for a previous client and the husband is a doctor in Boston, so they are fairly sheltered from an economic downturn. However since this is the only call I have had in some time, and since I looked at the job my outlook for the economy has diminished severely, I sent them an email to tell them that if they get a lower bid let me know because I might be willing to meet it.
The plus for me is that I have 4 exteriors book and all of them are still planning to have the work done.
However, these past 4 years I have hired a helper. I really have no intention to do that this year. I do not want the responsibility and stress of keeping 2 painters busy.

On a side note...I am in the process of planning a trip to hike the Long Trail in VT in the fall. It should take me about 3 weeks. When I cam up with the Idea I was concerned about leaving work at the end of the lucrative exterior season. Now, I am not as concerned. 

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> The last job I looked at was about 3 1/2 weeks ago. It was for a previous client and the husband is a doctor in Boston, so they are fairly sheltered from an economic downturn. However since this is the only call I have had in some time, and since I looked at the job my outlook for the economy has diminished severely, I sent them an email to tell them that if they get a lower bid let me know because I might be willing to meet it.
> The plus for me is that I have 4 exteriors book and all of them are still planning to have the work done.
> However, these past 4 years I have hired a helper. I really have no intention to do that this year. I do not want the responsibility and stress of keeping 2 painters busy.
> 
> ...


Maybe you could do the trail now? It seems like a good time to do something like that, if it is allowed. I'd like to take a vacation like that, but my wife is somewhat working from home and my daughter is too young to do much of anything outdoors-related. Thus, I'm confined to chasing her around the house all day for the time being.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

ParamountPaint said:


> Maybe you could do the trail now? It seems like a good time to do something like that, if it is allowed. I'd like to take a vacation like that, but my wife is somewhat working from home and my daughter is too young to do much of anything outdoors-related. Thus, I'm confined to chasing her around the house all day for the time being.


This is suppose to be a terrible time to do it...really muddy. I am doing it in the fall with the hope that I will hit it around the time the leaves are changing. I am going to start at the Canadian border and head south to Massachusetts.

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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

In good news, my wife's company applied for a Paycheck Protection Loan on Friday morning. Approval came this morning and she will be signing the papers tomorrow. This was through a small community bank that she uses.

I haven't heard anything about my own EIDL application yet, so we shall see on that one. Supposedly, I can apply for unemployment, but it doesn't seem to be set up yet in my state. 

I'm going to build a deck solo starting Friday, anyway...assuming my materials get delivered. I can't imagine any legal issue with it as I could technically walk there from my house, and I have no reason to see or interact with anyone. I got a roof request from someone, so I can always do that as well, though I'm not used to solo roofing.

Got a cancellation on a ~$100k deck build for the summer, so that's not great. That was going to be a nice project, although I was secretly dreading some aspects of it.


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## JohnDoor (Apr 7, 2020)

Here in Mich our governor is taking a pretty hard stand on the definition of 'essential' and threatening some pretty stiff fines. I'm near Ann Arbor which is very liberal and there's a very good chance I'd get reported if I started a project. So, I'm just catching up on my home to-do list, cleaning the shop, spending time on forums, etc. Oh, it's great family time too. My mother-in-law, who is wonderful, moved in w us in January, before COVID was on the radar screen. We're so glad she's here and not stuck alone in the condo. Also, 2 of my daughters are home when their colleges sent everyone packing. Really enjoying family time.....but eager to start the projects that are booked.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I just received my EIDL advance!! 

Got an email about it, then it was in my account. Not sure of how much the loan will be for total yet but at 3.75 for 30 years, the payments will be awfully low.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Hmm, so I just found out that two of my competitors are working.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fauxlynn said:


> Hmm, so I just found out that two of my competitors are working.


 I get the feeling that the black market will be in full effect. Lots of cash jobs etc. All situational of course, but if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem.
Theoretically, the guidelines around my parts are quite grey. They say contruction and renos in general are OK.
However I don't want to be working in occupied homes. I have an empty full house reno I will start next week, but will still be very cautious. 
You gonna Fib Fauxlynn?


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Fib as in lie? Guess I’m just envious that as much as I wrack my brain, I can’t figure out a way to get to the jobs I did have lined up without putting myself at large risk. These jobs are public spaces or homes with kids. 


In MD there is a ‘don’t leave your home’ order.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I just received my EIDL advance!!
> 
> Got an email about it, then it was in my account. Not sure of how much the loan will be for total yet but at 3.75 for 30 years, the payments will be awfully low.


When did you apply? I'd like to know what is going on with that program.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

ParamountPaint said:


> When did you apply? I'd like to know what is going on with that program.



I applied on March 29th, I think it was the first day it came out.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

I was reading that the EIDL pays out only $1k per employee you
May have totaling no more than $10k. Is that what your loan equates to? Thanks 


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

juanvaldez said:


> I was reading that the EIDL pays out only $1k per employee you
> May have totaling no more than $10k. Is that what your loan equates to? Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats the advance portion, as for the loan amount? Im really not sure, it just says up to 2mil, but I would assume it is based off the sales and expenses that you answered on the application. I would think it would be similar to the PPP loan which is 2.5 months of employee wages based on 2019.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fauxlynn said:


> Fib as in lie? Guess I’m just envious that as much as I wrack my brain, I can’t figure out a way to get to the jobs I did have lined up without putting myself at large risk. These jobs are public spaces or homes with kids.
> 
> 
> In MD there is a ‘don’t leave your home’ order.


Ya, as in call out your competitor's for breaking the order. If people don't respect the rules, thing may never normalize.. Amazing some people are just clueless..


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, as in call out your competitor's for breaking the order. If people don't respect the rules, thing may never normalize.. Amazing some people are just clueless..


One of them was featured on our local news for painting an outdoor mural for the past three weeks. I doubt any viruses were spread by doing this, but it did make me do a double take about what is an essential business.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fauxlynn said:


> Fib as in lie? Guess I’m just envious that as much as I wrack my brain, I can’t figure out a way to get to the jobs I did have lined up without putting myself at large risk. These jobs are public spaces or homes with kids.
> 
> 
> In MD there is a ‘don’t leave your home’ order.


And I thought fibs were what Wisconsinite drivers called drivers with Illinois license plates.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Redux said:


> And I thought fibs were what Wisconsinite drivers called drivers with Illinois license plates.


Brings back fond memories of my Grandpa telling us to watch out for cops on our outings to the Shedd Aquarium.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Back to topic.
Apparently Gov. Newsom is rolling out some guidelines to get business back on track. The small part I heard was about re thinking how places such as restaurants operate; gloved waiters and throw away menus. 

This has me thinking about what things might our industry do to instill confidence in future customers. Would small gestures such as wearing shoe protectors or gloves, etc. make a difference?


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

MikeCalifornia said:


> ParamountPaint said:
> 
> 
> > When did you apply? I'd like to know what is going on with that program.
> ...


My accountant applied for on my behalf, but I haven't seen anything yet. I think it was on the same day as you. Did you get $1k per employee as the advance or did they give you the $10k?


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Actually, I believe that I applied on the first day that the disaster was declared for my state. I'm not sure exactly when that was, without looking into it further.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

I was fortunately notified of my approved PPP loan thru SBA today. Super happy to get that notice today! Should be seeing funds within 3 days. Hopefully more of you can capitalize on the PPP or EIDL programs. Get it while you can, if you don't someone else will!

And although we are working and have some work lined up for the next month or two, I am expecting some sort of slowdown in the near future. I am in it for the long haul so hoping to make it thru ok.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Also, my local SW manager told me today apparantly I am one of the few that have work or lined up work currently. He said many commercial painters with many employees are down and out as well as quite a few other residential guys that shop at my local. Go figure, I am super appreciative of my continued referrals, and I've worked very hard to run a solid referral based business on quality and integrity while being fair and reasonable.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

ParamountPaint said:


> My accountant applied for on my behalf, but I haven't seen anything yet. I think it was on the same day as you. Did you get $1k per employee as the advance or did they give you the $10k?



It's 1k per employee, I had two on my app as of the date they requested. If you are applying for the PPP as well, the stipulation is if you get the EDIL loan and the PPP, you must refi the EDIL loan (keep the advance, it will reduce your available forgiveness on the PPP) with the PPP. So essentially they don't want you to have two loans. You would get the PPP and then roll the total of the EDIL minus the advance together for a combined total PPP. Hope that makes sense.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

What a confusing attempt at helping out small business. 
First came the sba loan. Then the eidl. Then the ppp. Scrambling to figure out a backup plan, I first applied for the sba. Then the next day or two the eidl came out so the sba has me reapply for that. Then two days later the ppp came out and I applied for that. No where I read said you should t not could t apply for any or all at the same time. And neither did any one of them state it’s either this or that. Super confusing but then again everything is super confusing right now huh? Thanks 


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/16/sma...49-billion-limit-and-is-now-out-of-money.html

well the next step should be interesting....


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Brings back fond memories of my Grandpa telling us to watch out for cops on our outings to the Shedd Aquarium.


Why did he have outstanding warrants out on him?:surprise:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Restaurants and other small businesses across the country are suing their insurance companies for failure to cover their losses during COVID -19. This sounds all too familiar They love to take your premiums but don't like paying out when their insured really need it! https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0200416-b5kl3xaweja7refbqfr4cpkp3u-story.html


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> Why did he have outstanding warrants out on him?:surprise:


Ha!
No. It’s largely known that you gotta have a couple bucks to pay the po po if you get stopped. Also, don’t ask me why, those stickers for the window aren’t always real. ❤


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

fauxlynn said:


> Ha!
> No. It’s largely known that you gotta have a couple bucks to pay the po po if you get stopped. Also, don’t ask me why, those stickers for the window aren’t always real. ❤


Back in the '50s my old man had a couple of good buddies that were Chicago's finest out of the Shakespear District. Each district had a limited number of radar cars, so every month they would bid on them with the shift Sargeant, Highest bidders got the radar cars!
It was common practice back then to have your driver's license together with a $20 bill to hand to the cop when you got pulled over.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Yeah, my dad got pulled over plenty of times.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Stolen from FB


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

fauxlynn said:


> Stolen from FB
> 
> View attachment 106171



That would work! (For like 3 seconds which is about how long it would take to eat it.)


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Joe67 said:


> That would work! (For like 3 seconds which is about how long it would take to eat it.)


Joe67, did you know that bacon was one the the rewards that mods get for their service?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

With retirement and relocation plans now on indefinite hold due to not being able to list/sell my home & downsize as a result of NY’s Pause order, I’ve committed to a couple of wood finishing projects which will carry me through June of 2021. Hopefully the local real estate market will somewhat stabilize and/or rebound by then. In the interim, I’ll be going at it solo w/out employees. Single person operations in the skilled trades are exempt from the non-essential business mandate here in NY. With face coverings now being required in COVID County, I broke out my P100 respirators before jumping back into the trenches. Looks like it’s game on..


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Saw my first Ben Moore ad on TV the other day related to the virus. Nice to see. A few funny things in it though. What is that woman doing slathering paint on the field of a wall with a brush? Hate to be the poor person scraping the failing paint off that siding. Thanks for hiring me for that job. lol.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Speaking of commercials; not sure if Windermere Reality is nation wide or not but they currently have one of the all time stupidest ones running now. 

Narrator shares that the day before the showing, “someone” steps forth to repair and stain the damaged deck of a house. Video shows a guy (from the knees down) wearing nice slacks and dress shoes putting down new lumber on a badly weathered deck.The implied message is that in one day a realtor stepped in and replaced a bunch of damaged decking and stained it to match. Didn’t know there was a deck stain color called, “ass-ugly weathered and mildewed wood gray”. 

Where the heck do the people making these commercials come up with this crap? Okay, realtors might step up and occasionally go beyond the call of duty. But this is just blatantly idiotic and misleading.


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## GBH2 (Apr 12, 2020)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Saw my first Ben Moore ad on TV the other day related to the virus. Nice to see. A few funny things in it though. What is that woman doing slathering paint on the field of a wall with a brush? Hate to be the poor person scraping the failing paint off that siding. Thanks for hiring me for that job. lol.


And they were showing interior paint while they were talking about the exterior; and they were painting that railing by starting on the top of the rail and using that crappy brush; and they were painting the shingles starting at the bottom and working their way up. lol


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Windermere realty is not where I live but they are handling my deceased brother in laws house in Port Angeles, Washington for my wife who has the task of selling a very distressed property. As in tear down distressed.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Worth a read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/...te=1&user_id=28e3432d2649c1e11aba0bd79ae961d9

Answers to many questions about shoes, mail, etc.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

fauxlynn said:


> Worth a read:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/...te=1&user_id=28e3432d2649c1e11aba0bd79ae961d9
> 
> Answers to many questions about shoes, mail, etc.


Good info indeed, Thanks. I can't help but think back to 2 weeks ago when they told us nobody needs to be wearing a mask. I bought a box of the n95 for family use from ppg that day. They have since run out.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Good info indeed, Thanks. I can't help but think back to 2 weeks ago when they told us nobody needs to be wearing a mask. I bought a box of the n95 for family use from ppg that day. They have since run out.



Lucky, we haven't seen them in paint stores since end of January.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Lucky, we haven't seen them in paint stores since end of January.


Right. Thank gawd I have 3M respirator with my p100 filters for sanding atleast. My backup is the tradesmen special. (pulling shirt up over nose).


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## GBH2 (Apr 12, 2020)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Good info indeed, Thanks. I can't help but think back to 2 weeks ago when they told us nobody needs to be wearing a mask. I bought a box of the n95 for family use from ppg that day. They have since run out.


I hope you saved them for reuse. Coronavirus doesn't survive on them past 72 hours.(as long as they are not torn or heavily soiled) There are also methods to disinfect to get multiple uses out of them.

I found 4 unused n95 masks I had leftover and I probably have a few more barely used(for sanding) ones stuffed in some box somewhere. I have been saving them all for when I really need them.:wink:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I placed an order for 30 N95 masks at the spring contractor order sale just as this was all starting. Got the rest of the order but masks were back ordered until who knows when. I ended up getting a box of 10 but gave them to the hospital. Hopefully more come in eventually for us painters.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I’m presently using the 3M and MSA respirators with P100 cartridges, and I’m wondering what the useful life for the 3M P100 cartridges is. My pest control contractor who is using them when on service calls told me they don’t provide the stated 99.97% efficacy against COVID-19 after 40 hrs use. Can’t seem to find any literature on it though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> I’m presently using the 3M and MSA respirators with P100 cartridges, and I’m wondering what the useful life for the 3M P100 cartridges is. My pest control contractor who is using them when on service calls told me they don’t provide the stated 99.97% efficacy against COVID-19 after 40 hrs use. Can’t seem to find any literature on it though.


Those cartriges do clog up after a while, but it totally depends what your using them for. Dust will clog them up faster than anything..As far as not being effective against Covid -19 after 40 hrs. that would be a grey area. Are you planning on using a respirator in high risk situations? Either way, those filters are actually quite inexpensive. I try to keep my filters in a ziplock bag when not in use.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It’s really unfortunate that there isn’t more info out there about respirator cartridges and Covid-19 effectiveness. I’ve got two sets of slightly use P100 cartridges and quite a few new organic cartridges with N95 pre-filters. So is the P100 provide enough protection against Covid-19 or should I use the organic cartridges with pre-filters? 

I’m taking the assumption that a P100 respirator is probably more effective than N95 mask? 

If you’re thinking about more DIY style face masks here a link to a study a comparing various materials people have been using for their DIY face masks and their effectiveness:

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-diy-coronavirus-homemade-mask-material-covid/


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I know you guys think I’m nuts sometimes but, I still say going forward this industry needs to re think how we work in peoples homes. This article talks about what the Marriott chain is doing. It reports about the study of uv light to sterilize keys, etc. Interesting.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzann..._QhOjJdcoQe4btLzhBRzTnuPfiXXcpgI#1646d59843c1


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

fauxlynn said:


> I know you guys think I’m nuts sometimes but, I still say going forward this industry needs to re think how we work in peoples homes. This article talks about what the Marriott chain is doing. It reports about the study of uv light to sterilize keys, etc. Interesting.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzann..._QhOjJdcoQe4btLzhBRzTnuPfiXXcpgI#1646d59843c1



Well, yeah we think you’re nuts. But that’s why we love ya. 

And yes, I’m thinking the old “normal” procedures aren’t coming back anytime soon, if ever. 


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> Well, yeah we think you’re nuts. But that’s why we love ya.
> 
> And yes, I’m thinking the old “normal” procedures aren’t coming back anytime soon, if ever.
> 
> ...


Big D in da’ house! Ha!
I hope you’re playing some golf at least while we’re all twiddling our thumbs.


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## Hunter22 (Apr 13, 2020)

The whole world is stopped. Even we can't go out without an emergency.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Hunter22 said:


> The whole world is stopped. Even we can't go out without an emergency.



We're beginning to ramp up here in California. I could tell just by the increase in traffic during my morning and evening commute. I'm sure other states will be getting back to business soon too.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> We're beginning to ramp up here in California. I could tell just by the increase in traffic during my morning and evening commute. I'm sure other states will be getting back to business soon too.


Just throw a couple tide pods in yer lunch box to snack on..Good for the day!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Just throw a couple tide pods in yer lunch box to snack on..Good for the day!


I had to look up the reference. I guess it's a thing.

Nope. For me, just the usual lunch. But I sure will miss the social distancing. The commute has been incredibly light for the past month and a half. Just as predicted, people are flooding back into the work place. It won't be long before we're complaining about terrible traffic and hordes of people at the malls. 

God Bless the insatiable consumer!


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Ive been as busy as ever this last 6 weeks

Getting busier now

Course its not too hard to keep just me busy,1 man band and lovin every minute of it,tone deaf and foolish as can be


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

I went back to work Monday out of sheer boredom. I hired a new guy and have been showing him the ropes. I had hopes of being stimulated in some way by the government, but that doesn't seem to be happening, so off to work I'll go.

It feels good to be out and about. I'll probably catch coronavirus, but I'm pretty much done with sitting still. It's been over a month. I don't really need the money, but sitting at home all day wears on a person.

My wife is talking about re-opening her office as well, which will ease the childcare situation. I've loved every minute with my daughter, but at some point, things need to move forward. It's impractical to sit at home all day, every day.

It'll be coronavirus, or death by a thousand cuts. I'm going to take my chances with coronavirus.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Hunter22 said:


> The whole world is stopped. Even we can't go out without an emergency.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm starting to think that old people have nothing better to do than call me and nag about when I'm coming to paint. I'm not even answering my phone any more. What's even more irritating is when I explain that I could be fined, they write that off and say "I think you'll be ok. You shouldn't worry about it." That just makes me want to put them on 'the list'.



Read a book or something. Or just stare at your powder blue walls. I don't care.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

This Corona thing is gonna turn you into an old curmudgeon if you ain’t careful, Bill. Lol

Hang in there.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> This Corona thing is gonna turn you into an old curmudgeon if you ain’t careful, Bill. Lol
> 
> Hang in there.
> 
> ...



I think I've held that label for a while now son! The fact that for the most part I've been spending my days painting in complete social isolation for the past roughly 6 months hasn't helped things along. That all ended yesterday when I ran out of empty buildings. Apparently now I kiss my wife goodbye in the morning when she leaves for work at the local weed farm and get to hang out with the dogs all day!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm starting to think that old people have nothing better to do than call me and nag about when I'm coming to paint. I'm not even answering my phone any more. What's even more irritating is when I explain that I could be fined, they write that off and say "I think you'll be ok. You shouldn't worry about it." That just makes me want to put them on 'the list'.
> 
> 
> 
> Read a book or something. Or just stare at your powder blue walls. I don't care.


Sheesh...I’ve only called three times! Sheesh again.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Here's a good one for you: on the advice of my accountant, she applied for a EIDL loan on my behalf. This was quite some time ago, so I figured it went into the circular file somewhere.

Meanwhile, the week before last, I got a notification from Quickbooks Online Payroll that I was eligible to apply for a PPP loan through them. I figured, what the hay, and went ahead and did it to see what would happen.

Well, lo and behold I checked my bank account today and it seems that I managed to get both. Now I'll have to have my accountant untangle it all, but it seems that some of these programs are slowly being processed.

Either way, I put a new guy on payroll last week and one of my other guys is coming back part-time (he managed to snag a federal job in the interim, but he has a couple days a week to work), so I'm hoping that I'll be able to spend 100% of the PPP on payroll in the 8 week time period. Lord knows, we can work some overtime to try and catch up. I don't know what the EIDL has to do with anything, but my accountant can sort it out.

Work is still splotchy, not because there isn't anything to do, but because of site restrictions. I've been moving forward on a few deck construction jobs, which we can easily do within the current restrictions and without being in customer's homes. The weather is doing us no favors, though.

We're still gonna be 2 months behind coming out of this, but such is life. We had a few decent-sized cancellations (probably $160K or so, gross-wise), but thus far the schedule looks OK for at least the summer. We shall see where this all goes.

Some of my remodels are going to be in disarray, because I had scheduled subs for flooring and drywall, and I imagine their schedules are shot as well. We'll just have to do the best we can.

Also, on Saturday, my uncle passed away from Covid-19. We were worried it could happen, as he was in a nursing home in Trenton, NJ and came down with pneumonia earlier this year. He was 83. It's a sad thing to die alone and even harder on the ones left behind that were unable to be with him at the end. This is indeed a strange time in history. 

Damn you, coronavirus.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

ParamountPaint said:


> Here's a good one for you: on the advice of my accountant, she applied for a EIDL loan on my behalf. This was quite some time ago, so I figured it went into the circular file somewhere.
> 
> Meanwhile, the week before last, I got a notification from Quickbooks Online Payroll that I was eligible to apply for a PPP loan through them. I figured, what the hay, and went ahead and did it to see what would happen.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle dying alone as most are in hospitals and nursing homes, my wife has been in a nursing home since January 18, and I've not able to visit since the ban took effect.
She had her 66th birthday on May 4th, and all I could do was give her my Love on the phone and deliver her flowers and dinner to the front door of the nursing home.

The nursing home she is in has had 33 confirmed cases of COVID -19 with 7 deaths, our 46th wedding anniversary is on May 26th, I can only hope that I will get to see her by then!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle dying alone as most are in hospitals and nursing homes, my wife has been in a nursing home since January 18, and I've not able to visit since the ban took effect.
> She had her 66th birthday on May 4th, and all I could do was give her my Love on the phone and deliver her flowers and dinner to the front door of the nursing home.
> 
> The nursing home she is in has had 33 confirmed cases of COVID -19 with 7 deaths, our 46th wedding anniversary is on May 26th, I can only hope that I will get to see her by then!


I hope you'll be able to see her again. 46 years is a really impressive demonstration of commitment.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle dying alone as most are in hospitals and nursing homes, my wife has been in a nursing home since January 18, and I've not able to visit since the ban took effect.
> She had her 66th birthday on May 4th, and all I could do was give her my Love on the phone and deliver her flowers and dinner to the front door of the nursing home.
> 
> The nursing home she is in has had 33 confirmed cases of COVID -19 with 7 deaths, our 46th wedding anniversary is on May 26th, I can only hope that I will get to see her by then!


Damn, Brushman, I'm so sorry to hear this! I hope she gets home soon!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

And..The under cutting has begun. I just lost atleast 2 jobs that would have been gravy Pandemic jobs. Apparently thier prices were "considerably" lower. There's no doubt that every layed off fireman and oil field worker are out doing cash jobs on the side.. More than usual..They're probably collecting the emergency benefits on top of it too.. 
At that price, I may as well stay home and collect myself and have a paid vacation. Why bother.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> And..The under cutting has begun. I just lost atleast 2 jobs that would have been gravy Pandemic jobs. Apparently thier prices were "considerably" lower. There's no doubt that every layed off fireman and oil field worker are out doing cash jobs on the side.. More than usual..They're probably collecting the emergency benefits on top of it too..
> At that price, I may as well stay home and collect myself and have a paid vacation. Why bother.



Because you are a professional!! These lowballers will be gone as soon as their crappy work leads to a deadend. Continue to preach how long you have been in business, don't lower your price but raise your price, as you will have to pay for lots of new ppe protocols. Stay firm, you don't want those jobs anyway.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

finishesbykevyn said:


> And..The under cutting has begun. I just lost atleast 2 jobs that would have been gravy Pandemic jobs. Apparently thier prices were "considerably" lower. There's no doubt that every layed off fireman and oil field worker are out doing cash jobs on the side.. More than usual..They're probably collecting the emergency benefits on top of it too..
> At that price, I may as well stay home and collect myself and have a paid vacation. Why bother.


I agree. Why bother to compete with a bunch of desperate furloughed workers when you can sit home and collect a check. Especially when you consider how confused homeowners are in general when it comes to home improvement services. Good luck pitting your integrity against a firefighter's. 

The good news is, it won't be long before they're all scrambling back to their prospective jobs because not only will they tire of painting for a living and be itching to do what they do, but they'll also get tired of accommodating picky homeowners. And they're all picky! And since painters are naturally picky, only a true professional painter could tolerate that behavior from others.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I agree. Why bother to compete with a bunch of desperate furloughed workers when you can sit home and collect a check. Especially when you consider how confused homeowners are in general when it comes to home improvement services. Good luck pitting your integrity against a firefighter's.
> 
> The good news is, it won't be long before they're all scrambling back to their prospective jobs because not only will they tire of painting for a living and be itching to do what they do, but they'll also get tired of accommodating picky homeowners. And they're all picky! And since painters are naturally picky, only a true professional painter could tolerate that behavior from others.


Never minded picky customers. Hated unreasonable ones.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

How's that Hydroxychloroquine working out?


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

This whole thing is a damned mess. 

What I’m finding the most difficult is following ‘the rules’ to protect myself and others, but others aren’t following so well. If I head out to the store I always regret it afterward. There’s a false security wearing a mask I think.

I got asked a few weeks ago to do a quick little marble job in a bathroom remodel. Occupied house and workmen present. Nope. 8 ft of baseboard with three trips to the house for what? 

Masks and gloves aren’t going to be 100% guarantee of not getting sick. 

Putting a sticker on the pizza box to ‘prove’ it’s safe because nobody touched it is a joke.

Kids in 15 states getting strange inflammatory distress to organs, but schools want their deposit checks for fall. 

I got a very part time gig sewing surgical gowns through a partnership with the state of Maryland and private companies, mine being through a boat upholstery supplier. Governor Hogan is doing a great job for us here.

Okay, whining over.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

fauxlynn said:


> This whole thing is a damned mess.
> 
> What I’m finding the most difficult is following ‘the rules’ to protect myself and others, but others aren’t following so well. If I head out to the store I always regret it afterward. There’s a false security wearing a mask I think.
> 
> ...



I've started to get a little bit of [email protected] fatigue. I'm still careful as I can be when out in public. But keeping up the full blown precautions is exhausting, not to mention impossible, as you note.



Most, if not all, humans will have contact with this damn thing eventually regardless. I still know its best to keep up with all of the precautions to make it gradual rather than an overwhelming explosion. But yes. Tired of it and sometimes thinking the sooner my immune system sees it the better. Except I know that's dumb too. I'll just sigh and stick with the precautions.



But, uh, in the end I guess I can't really elaborate on "This whole thing is a damned mess."


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Some homeowner jobs have been delayed, but most of our commercial jobs are wanting it done ASAP. I don't have any retail clients, which I would imagine might be completely trickling right now, but we do banks and health care. They both seem to want the jobs done, but the healthcare sites are locked down at the moment. The banks are still good to go, as we show up after everyone leaves and leave before everyone shows up.

My biggest problem now is childcare. My wife and I are both trying to work around each other's schedules as best we can. If she opens her office next week and our caretaker can return, we can be back up and running full steam.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Joe67 said:


> ......Tired of it and sometimes thinking the sooner my immune system sees it the better. .....


I haven’t read anything confirming there is a herd immunity acquired here, jury is still out on that, correct?

For people with co morbid autoimmune issues, such as myself, I can’t think of anything worse than meeting this bug.

So now we see other industries coming back with virus protocols in place. Plastic dividers, floor decals, sanitizing stations, etc. What do we do as an industry to protect ourselves and our people? Gloves and masks are a given. Do we write into contracts that we block off the rooms we’re working in, clean all surfaces afterward, not use any personal areas of the customer, such as bathrooms? I know this might be area dependent, some states here might just resume as normal. The liability here boggles my mind. Has anyone seen any insurance policy changes yet?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yep, it's definitely going to be different. Since roughly November, to the best of my recollection I've spent two weeks working in occupied buildings last of which was well before the poop hit the fan. Otherwise I've spent my days painting in complete isolation. All day long. That all ended a week ago today. Now I get up in the morning and my wife leaves for work and I'm roaming around the property trying to keep myself busy. Alone again. I have no idea how people have been doing this for a few months.



I went into a store yesterday for the first time in months. It felt weird. Creepy. I couldn't get out of there fast enough with all the people around.


I have no idea what it's going to be like working in peoples houses with them there. Maybe it'll be the same for some people and not others? Are people going to expect all of your tools to be sanitized? How 'bout dropsheets? Some guy hands you a cheque are we gonna be wondering where his hands have been? Not to mention someone wanting to pay you in cash. Loads of businesses around here are strongly advising people to use credit or debit to pay for stuff.


Weird times a comin'. Things are starting to open up around here. Supposedly the Ontario premier is gonna speak today about moving things forward with regards to construction, etc.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

fauxlynn said:


> I haven’t read anything confirming there is a herd immunity acquired here, jury is still out on that, correct?



Yeah, as far as I know the jury is out. Too soon to tell, I suppose. Lots of questions about it yet to be answered.




fauxlynn said:


> For people with co morbid autoimmune issues, such as myself, I can’t think of anything worse than meeting this bug.



Yes, you should stay hunkered down. And, no I don't really want to meet the bug at all either despite what has thus far been a healthy immune system. Just frustrated and tired of it as most of are.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I’m not trying to argue with you, just, as you said, tired of it. What’s making it worse is the misinformation out there and lack of strong federal leadership, but that’s for a different thread I guess.


My brother is a machinist in a meat processing plant. He’s a smoker. He’s considered an essential worker. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around dying for ground beef. 

This ain’t herpes where we don’t know who we got it from and then lie to our SO that it must’ve come from them. Wink, wink. Herpes doesn’t kill you or your grandma.

I just can’t shut up. 
Anyway, in our business there is a lot to be said for the personal connection we make with the homeowner to land jobs. It’s a big deal to trust someone to paint your home, your castle, your nest. It’s going to take some creative thinking to make that bridge while trying to keep safety in mind.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

fauxlynn said:


> I’m not trying to argue with you



Yeah, I didn't think so. I just didn't want to sound cavalier about it and like I was ready to doubt the risks or take them lightly. And yes, some manner of real leadership would be helping a great deal, but I'm not going down that road either...


My brother's a maintenance guy in a plant for a manufacturing supplier, not in the hottest of hot New York zones, but a pretty hot one. He's asthmatic and has a nasty heart condition, and likely to see many things these days as the latest "hoax," unfortunately. Luckily his wife is a bit of an OCD cleanliness person, so her policing helps some.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Well, here in Ontario it looks like I'm back in business as of Tuesday. All construction and household maintenance given the go ahead. Hopefully this goes well.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Just came to mind- here’s some corporate responsibility for you.

My ex works for a major soft drink producer that doesn’t sell Pepsi. Anyway, he’s been working this entire time. What did corporate do for him and his crew? They each got ONE mask per week to wear during work. Those guys you see slinging cases in those big trucks lift the weight of their truck in product every day. 

Here’s one mask, see ya’ next week. 
Appalling. And not enough.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Things are continuing to ramp up in the San Francisco Bay area. Many are eager to go back to work. I know, because I'm witnessing more idiots re-entering the commute who've forgotten that the speed limit is around 70 mph on the freeways. Just because there are large gaps between cars due to many still at home, doesn't mean commuting is a personal video game where you can zig zag through cars at 100 mph.. Slow down you freakin idiots!

I'm pretty impressed by the way we have all navigated through this crisis. I think for many who have experienced trauma, and or personal crisis before Covid 19, have a deep understanding of those who are collectively having an emotionally difficult time with the upheaval and isolation in their lives due to this virus. Isolation is very difficult. But to be isolated by a personal trauma, or crisis while the rest of the World is happily going about their business, is the deepest isolation of all. Yet some how we pull out of it and get on with our lives.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I hope I get it or have had it already to get it over with. Most of us will at some point anyway. Sorry to be there bearer of bad news but I don't think there will be a vaccine and those cloth masks don't protect you from anything. IMHO the best way to protect those at higher risk is for the young and healthy to develop herd immunity. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Well, here in Ontario it looks like I'm back in business as of Tuesday. All construction and household maintenance given the go ahead. Hopefully this goes well.


Just take regular precautions Bill. I'm kind of over it. I've been working the whole time with a just a handful of trades. Mostly just trying to keep distance from other people and doing my best not to touch my face too much..It's the grocery and drug store that spooks me out. 
Usually a dozen heroin addicts in line with thier methadone prescriptions coughing and sniffling out loud behind you..masks are kind of useless in my opinion if your following distance rules. Way over rated.
I see people walking and driving down the street by themselves with a mask on. I mean seriously? Totally pointless.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Masks of any kind do more than nothing. E.g. if I'm around those "heroin addicts in line with thier methadone prescriptions coughing and sniffling out loud" I want them masked. It doesn't zero anything out. But it reduces it. None of the masks - even the N95s - will guarantee anything. But there's a lot more gray to it than black and white.


Certainly those masking while not anywhere near another human (like in their car) is impossibly dumb. (Though my wife comes home from the store often with the mask on her head. It does make a funny hat.)


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

At the end of the day I guess if people wearing masks while driving by themselves makes them more comfortable go for it. I'm sure some are just trying to get used to wearing them. They do keep you from touching most of your face which is a good thing.


I've had to wear one when I've been called by the local nursing home to do work during this. Sadly they had the cheapest, crappiest made things I've ever seen. Plastic face shields that fell apart in your hands. Masks where the strings were bonded to the paper with a dot of glue that broke as soon as you tried to put it on. I told them I had a full face 3m respirator with me but they wouldn't let me use it. I had to use theirs. Said I couldn't bring anything in from outside. I pointed to my big tool box on wheels with all my gear in it. "Just go paint the rooms we need". Ugh.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Some observations of face covering during Covid 19 precautions:

1. N95 dust masks, with built in exhausts, are better than anything else because they don't allow a build up of CO2 (carbon dioxide) when exhaling. Plus, the exhaust helps prevent glasses from fogging up.

2. All of these fancy fabric cloth masks, without exhausts, prevent proper exhaling. Extended exposure to elevated CO2 levels can lead to mental fatigue.

3. Of course, APR respirators, or supplied air respirators, are the ultimate respiratory protection but are also completely impractical when grocery shopping. However, they may actually fit right in with the ambiance of a Walmart. 

4. Wearing a mask when alone in a car, elevator, on a bicycle, or in the middle of a meadow, makes sense if you're concerned about contaminating a steering from a sneeze, spreading a potential virus from a cough on the elevator buttons, or picking your nose after touching a contaminated bottle of water you picked up at the gas station. 

5. Wearing a mask makes sense during these times. But try to breath without one as much as possible.

6. Washing hands and keeping your grubby fingers out of your nose, mouth, ears, and eyeballs, are practices that are probably better than wearing a mask. And eat with utensils. We're not a tribe of Neandrethals.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

My artsy wife made me a mask out of this crazy looking fabric. Her words were "I know you probably won't wear it in public", which I know is a trick. Basically I'll have to put it in the van and rough it up every now and again to make it look like I'm wearing it or I'll be in trouble. I did give her some babble about work safe regulations which she understands because she works in an 'ultra clean' environment where they have to change uniforms, shower, change masks, boot sanitize, etc. several times a day to reduce contamination.


I swear though that masks are becoming a fashion thing pretty quickly. Lots of people around town are making them and lots are buying. Most probably not understanding whether they actually do anything whatsoever.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Face coverings absolutely aid in curbing transmission. Research in Japan showing how far and how long your cough hangs in the air:

https://petapixel.com/2020/04/03/sc...apture-microdroplets-that-may-transmit-virus/

Even while talking:

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/05/12/2006874117

Anything is better than nothing but, it does matter what fabric you use. There are a lot of poor quality masks out there. I’ve been working on a prototype for three days now. Anyway, there’s a lot of info out there on masks. Tightly woven cotton, preferably with a non woven insert and if you can believe it, adding a layer of silk or nylon over it makes the effectiveness go up. Start cutting up those old nylons! 

I never could stand wearing a mask while working.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> My artsy wife made me a mask out of this crazy looking fabric. Her words were "I know you probably won't wear it in public", which I know is a trick. Basically I'll have to put it in the van and rough it up every now and again to make it look like I'm wearing it or I'll be in trouble. I did give her some babble about work safe regulations which she understands because she works in an 'ultra clean' environment where they have to change uniforms, shower, change masks, boot sanitize, etc. several times a day to reduce contamination.
> 
> I swear though that masks are becoming a fashion thing pretty quickly. Lots of people around town are making them and lots are buying. Most probably not understanding whether they actually do anything whatsoever.


Yep. The whole mask trend is right up there with Zoom. For example, Zoom has become an excuse for adult professionals to act like goofy children at a slumber party. Constantly giggling at each other's little Zoom environmental quirks and mishaps. It's like:

"Bob, what's the latest report on Caltron's risk exposure to market fluctuations?"

"Excellent question Dave. It appears quarter two may result in...Aw fluffy! what are you doing you silly girl? Can't you see I'm in the middle of a meeting? I'll feed you real soon!" 

Then the next half hour turns into a discussion about cats.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Got three great phone calls about work today.


A single dormer on a two story house.


A stairwell.


A gate on a fenced garden.


All three said they were trying to support local businesses. Thanks for that.


I think I'm being ungrateful.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Yep. The whole mask trend is right up there with Zoom. For example, Zoom has become an excuse for adult professionals to act like goofy children at a slumber party. Constantly giggling at each other's little Zoom environmental quirks and mishaps. It's like:
> 
> "Bob, what's the latest report on Caltron's risk exposure to market fluctuations?"
> 
> ...


Well it can only help to wear a mask to protect others from you and you from others, the people in Asia start wearing them as soon as there's news about any outbreak.

As far as Zoom and all the other remote hook up sites go, this will be somewhat like the new normal will be. Offices will look totally different than what they looked like two or so months ago, restaurants will have to change everything up to reopen, casinos will only have 3 players at a blackjack table separated by plexiglass shields between themselves and the dealer. Slot will have every other machine shut down with the stool or chairs removed.

This is the reality of the post COVID-19 world!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> Well it can only help to wear a mask to protect others from you and you from others, the people in Asia start wearing them as soon as there's news about any outbreak.
> 
> As far as Zoom and all the other remote hook up sites go, this will be somewhat like the new normal will be. Offices will look totally different than what they looked like two or so months ago, restaurants will have to change everything up to reopen, casinos will only have 3 players at a blackjack table separated by plexiglass shields between themselves and the dealer. Slot will have every other machine shut down with the stool or chairs removed.
> 
> This is the reality of the post COVID-19 world!


.....Happy Monday!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> Slot will have every other machine shut down with the stool or chairs removed.
> 
> This is the reality of the post COVID-19 world!



This just reminded me of my first trip to Vegas and my first time playing slot machines. They were still using coins at the time instead of cards. I remembered how black your hands would get handling all the coins and being completely disgusted by it at the time. Good times.


The thought of that now almost makes me want to barf.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

It’s slowly affecting my work. Getting way less calls for estimates for much smaller jobs. Catching up to our schedule for the last few months now. I Have a couple few jobs on the books but unless things change soon my forecast is looking slow here in so cal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Anyone else seen the BM commercial suggesting to people that although they may be sheltering in place inside, they should consider having the outside of their homes painted by a professional painter? It’s pretty good.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> Anyone else seen the BM commercial suggesting to people that although they may be sheltering in place inside, they should consider having the outside of their homes painted by a professional painter? It’s pretty good.



I think I posted a link to the Canadian version of that video a while ago somewhere in this thread. Interestingly it was before anyone was allowed to return to work. Haven't seen it on tv for a while now though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

RH said:


> Anyone else seen the BM commercial suggesting to people that although they may be sheltering in place inside, they should consider having the outside of their homes painted by a professional painter? It’s pretty good.


Ya, BM and also my local BM dealer advertising like crazy. It's great. My phone still ringing thankfully. Although I may need to sharpen my pencil a tad and brush up on my selling skills. Have let my gaurd down a bit over past few years, as I always had work..


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I’ve only seen it once down here and that was just a few days ago.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> This just reminded me of my first trip to Vegas and my first time playing slot machines. They were still using coins at the time instead of cards. I remembered how black your hands would get handling all the coins and being completely disgusted by it at the time. Good times.
> 
> 
> The thought of that now almost makes me want to barf.


Similar to the observation I read the other day about the quaint idea of having someone blow all over a cake before everyone has a slice. Wonder if that ritual will go by the wayside (which is ironic considering the happy birthday song, x2, has been held up as a model for hand washing time)?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Fortunately in my state we didn't have the stringent lockdown rules affecting all businesses. Talked with a couple of painters I know yesterday and they said they've only noticed a slight dip in business. Though, some have asked to reschedule some of the interior work. New potential customers haven't tried to take advantage of the situation and ask for low ball pricing either.

I'll continue to support the small businesses. Needed some parts that a few guys make and instead of waiting a while to order and buy, I just went ahead and ordered and paid letting them know there was no rush to ship and to take care of themselves, their families, and other customers. 

Now I did hear of a local painter who applied for one of these special loans to keep their employees paid. Interestingly enough, he was a single operator, but made his wife and other family members "employees". Got caught and is looking at some serious charges.

I had a CT scan at the VA yesterday. The place is on stringent admittance to the facility and you are escorted from the door to your clinic and escorted back to the door when done. Seemed to be a smart way of doing it. Pre-screening questions asked when coming on the grounds, entering the hospital, checking in at the clinic, and the persons doing the procedures and appointments.

Our best friend is the Pulmonary/ICU doctor there. Every other week he is only in the COVID ICU. Self-quarantines at a local hotel during those weeks. I think we're at about
132 deaths statewide attributed to the virus out of a little less than 11k cases.

Now a question for you guys and gals: We're all painters and at some point we've all worn masks. Remember taking off your mask and seeing where the dust and overspray got under your mask and onto your face? Makes you wonder about the virus doesn't it?


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

Wolfgang said:


> Fortunately in my state we didn't have the stringent lockdown rules affecting all businesses. Talked with a couple of painters I know yesterday and they said they've only noticed a slight dip in business. Though, some have asked to reschedule some of the interior work. New potential customers haven't tried to take advantage of the situation and ask for low ball pricing either.
> 
> I'll continue to support the small businesses. Needed some parts that a few guys make and instead of waiting a while to order and buy, I just went ahead and ordered and paid letting them know there was no rush to ship and to take care of themselves, their families, and other customers.
> 
> ...


I think I see the problem. It's one that is effecting much of the country right now. You were just at the VA and your best friend is a pulmonary/ICU doctor- and you're asking _painters_ for advice about masks! 

Consult the experts. Anecdotal advice on Facebook and similar sites should be taken with a grain of salt. This plague is a time for expert advice.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

No, you took the mask paragraph all wrong. I have better sense than to ask painters about masks.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Wolfgang said:


> No, you took the mask paragraph all wrong. I have better sense than to ask painters about masks.



In fact, it sounded to me like he was rather explicitly saying "painters don't know how to put on a mask properly." :devil3: All the more reason NOT to to ask the painters.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

To be fair to me, I was just messin' with him.


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## GBH2 (Apr 12, 2020)

Fman said:


> I think I see the problem. It's one that is effecting much of the country right now. You were just at the VA and your best friend is a pulmonary/ICU doctor- and you're asking _painters_ for advice about masks!
> 
> Consult the experts. Anecdotal advice on Facebook and similar sites should be taken with a grain of salt. This plague is a time for expert advice.


A typical "Medical Professional" probably knows less about wearing masks/respirators than a professional painter. At least we have had the visual feedback of seeing the dust/paint under the mask when we wear it improperly - not to mention the awful headaches when we spray stuff like lacquer or BIN and didn't fit the respirator correctly. :surprise:

I know how to fit a mask/respirator properly because of a lot of trial and error - just like I learned most things I know.:wink:


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

RH said:


> Anyone else seen the BM commercial suggesting to people that although they may be sheltering in place inside, they should consider having the outside of their homes painted by a professional painter? It’s pretty good.



I'm sure HD will counter that one, with "since you all have time on your hands and no money to pay a professional, do it yourself with ultra-premium-super-not a turd-Marquee exterior paint-primer-patch-sandpaper-powerwash ten in one exterior paint. One coat is all you need along with a weekend of easy application. We're here to help with all the paint essentials you may need as well." Cut to a dude sitting in his rocker sipping a cocktail at the end of a hard days work!!


You saw it here first


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

GBH2 said:


> A typical "Medical Professional" probably knows less about wearing masks/respirators than a professional painter. At least we have had the visual feedback of seeing the dust/paint under the mask when we wear it improperly - not to mention the awful headaches when we spray stuff like lacquer or BIN and didn't fit the respirator correctly. :surprise:
> 
> I know how to fit a mask/respirator properly because of a lot of trial and error - just like I learned most things I know.:wink:


I'm not going to get down on experiential ("trial and error") learning. But there's another way to describe "professional" - and that certainly includes "medical professional." It means somebody who's learned from generations of prior people's learning so that many of the "errors" from the trials were not necessary.


To suggest that medical professionals don't know about PPE is weird. 



And I have to say that since I was trained by professional painters, I've never experienced the headaches or whatever of improperly chosen or improperly fitted PPE. It's really something to be able to learn from generations of built-up human experience. I didn't have to F up my body and brain because I thought that some bunch of "professionals" didn't know any better than I did. 



Experience is also a good teacher, but there are plenty of errors that just don't need to be made.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

So, I'm all for trying to be sympathetic to people who are kind of losing it during this, but if you're completely freaking out just stay home.


Earlier today I'm working in this house some lady from the city bought to use as a cottage. The GC I'm working for tells me she's showing up to have a look at things. He warns me that "She's a little different."


Car pulls up out front. He gets a text saying she's here. We hear a voice at the back door. "Ok, I'm at the back door. Ok, I'm coming inside. Everyone stay where you are. Ok, I'm entering the kitchen. Ok, I'm in the kitchen now." She's creeping through the house like a cat that got slipped a hit of acid. Finally she comes near the room where we are and freezes as soon as she sees us. There's a moment of silence, then the inevitable happens. My GC friend clears his throat. She freaks out and runs out the back door. Refuses to come back in while we're in there.


Eventually, through text messages he convinces her that we could have a meeting on the back deck where we'll be on one side and she can be on the other. Literally 20 feet apart. Turns out she hasn't left her house since the beginning of March. Groceries delivered, etc.


She said she probably won't be coming back until we're completely done and gone.


I'm not exactly one to tell people they're over reacting during this whole thing, but wow. That was probably the worst I've ever seen. Take it seriously, use common sense, take precautions, etc. Who knows, maybe she's on medication or something I have no idea. Maybe she's got a compromised immune system? Stay home.


This is going to be something we're going to have to take into account in the future. Reading people and where they're mentally at with things. One more thing to deal with.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

GBH2 said:


> A typical "Medical Professional" probably knows less about wearing masks/respirators than a professional painter. At least we have had the visual feedback of seeing the dust/paint under the mask when we wear it improperly - not to mention the awful headaches when we spray stuff like lacquer or BIN and didn't fit the respirator correctly. :surprise:
> 
> I know how to fit a mask/respirator properly because of a lot of trial and error - just like I learned most things I know.:wink:


 Curious as to why you put medical professionals in quotes? Doctors and nurses get some pretty intense training. It takes years before they're licensed and certified. You'll never find them hanging around outside Home Depot looking to pick up some work. Well, you might if you had been spraying lacquer with that ill-fitting mask...:wink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> This is going to be something we're going to have to take into account in the future. Reading people and where they're mentally at with things. One more thing to deal with.


I am over trying to read people. I just assume they are all f*****g crazy until they prove otherwise. Heck, it wasn’t all that long ago I decided I was okay myself - and some days I still have doubts.


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## SweetLu (Feb 28, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Got three great phone calls about work today.
> 
> 
> A single dormer on a two story house.
> ...


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

SweetLu said:


> Wildbill7145 said:
> 
> 
> > Got three great phone calls about work today.
> ...


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The move back to working in occupied homes is becoming frustrating.


People are calling about wanting painting done, so you set up a time to check things out. Shortly thereafter you get a call back saying they're gonna hold off as other family members are freaking out that someone is coming into their home. Could you not check with everyone before you ask me to come to your house?



People are still living on quarantine time and whining about 8am starts. "Wow, that's early" "See you at day break!" "See you bright and early!" It's 8am, it's not that early.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*The last 2 weeks for me*

I had not been busy since last March 21 when I finished my last paint job and got my check. Last year I joined an online forum called Nextdoor.com. When you join you give your location and then you are filed into an area that Nextdoor.com has already mapped out. There are several areas in each town (more or less depending on population, I guess) and it appears from my area that I am lumped in with approximately people from one town away from my town. Some people chime in just to make comments about this or that, but many come there asking for help or recommendations. When the rains in the Chicago area hit this May, there were a lot of requests for help with water in basements. I have helped some of them and picked up a few bucks here and there. People also ask about painters. I am currently working on a bid to re-drywall a basement that had flooded (from the sump pump failing) and the drywall was removed up 1 foot from the floor, so they need new insulation, drywall, painting and baseboard installation.

Other things seem to be popping as well. I do recommend joining Nextdoor.com (or whatever similar thingy is in your area) and have emails come to your phone. I just tell people that I can come over and give an estimate for whatever and leave my phone number. I have gotten about 6 or 7 calls since I joined last year, most calls from the last month or so.

futtyos


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I have really debated in my mind about trying to hang on this time . I weathered through 2008, but this seems so much worse. I had a brief talk with my agent about renewing my insurance or just letting it all go. 
Then that night the fire broke out in DC, it was at first being said it was The Hay Adams. I take care of that building! Turns out the fire was behind it. I guess I’m going to try to hang on a little bit longer in case someone needs me. 


I wish 2020 would just be over.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

This is definitely shaping up to be a year for the record books. Between the Covid and the protests/riots there just seems to be an air of uncertainty that I’ve never seen before. 
And then throw in the fact that it’s an election year. 

I’m kinda glad that I’ve made it to the semiretired stage of my life. The downside to that of course, is it means I’ve gotten old. Lol. 

I’ve wondered before if faux finishers can or do take straight painting work as a fill in when the faux work slows down. 

Anyway, hope you hang in there, Lynn. You’re too talented to be wasting away as a greeter at Wally-World.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

2020 is a marathon. Control your breathing and maintain a pace. When we get over the finish line we'll reflect on WTF happened back there.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

In the finishing stages of two jobs.

One for the most covid paranoid people I've ever met. GC on the job is going nuts when they keep bringing new concerns to us daily. Worried about aerosol contamination when we eventually cut the hole through the wall of existing structure to the new addition to hang the door. Electrician screwed up and walked through a storage area the customers never ever use without a mask (we're wondering if they have cameras). The list goes on and on. The old man who hired the GC is the only one who communicates with us. Of course he never wears a mask when he comes into the addition we're doing. The rest of his family haven't left the house since March. He does all the shopping, etc.

Other job is for a total anti masker. Old man wanders around the house ranting and raving about how masks are killing us all. Restrictions are destroying the country, etc. etc. etc. Constantly wanting to shake my hand. Said when the job is done he "Wants to give me a big manly hug" for all the great work I've been doing. Um, yeah no thanks, just the cheque will be fine.

Got a call today to come look at a job on the weekend from a real estate guy I get a lot of work from. He told me to be sure to bring a mask.... and gloves because his client is extra paranoid. Never, not once have I been asked to wear gloves to look at a job. Mask for sure, but not gloves.

Last week, the local nursing home had me come do some painting. Full surgical gown, mask, gloves, face shield the whole time. Gown kept getting caught on my ladder which wasn't very fun. Given the environment, I totally understand the added concern but I hope they don't call me again any time soon.

It's really becoming a chess game trying to figure out where people are at in terms of dealing with things these days. I'm all for taking precautions, using common sense, taking peoples concerns seriously, etc. but wow it's never easy.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I love how you Canadians spell check cheque. I've dealt with the same type of thing as you. Some people look at you like you're a gashole when you show up for a quote in a mask while others would not even open the door if you weren't wearing one. I'm over it and can't wait for the day when this whole nonsense is behind us.


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## Madriverpainting (Aug 21, 2020)

Here in Vermont we’ve had a [email protected]&* ton of folks moving to the county side to get outta the urban life. Every week the phone rings with the same story “just bought this house need work done etc....” I was having to turn work away...passed a lot of it off which I HATE doing...maybe time to hire more help😬🙄

it’s also brought a few scams...folks emailing me with the address...can’t make it there to meet me...do you take electronic payment...get me the “high cost” estimate ASAP and we’ll pay you...yeah right!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Madriverpainting said:


> Here in Vermont we’ve had a [email protected]&* ton of folks moving to the county side to get outta the urban life. Every week the phone rings with the same story “just bought this house need work done etc....” I was having to turn work away...passed a lot of it off which I HATE doing...maybe time to hire more help😬🙄
> 
> it’s also brought a few scams...folks emailing me with the address...can’t make it there to meet me...do you take electronic payment...get me the “high cost” estimate ASAP and we’ll pay you...yeah right!


Why are these folks escaping the Urban life? Is it due to the Corona virus, lawlessness, general urban noise and congestion, retirement, or all of the above?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I've had a lot of people calling for work and never following through with the quote. One lady wanted me there at 830pm on a Saturday to give her a quote. I said I could do it Monday and I never heard back from her.


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## Madriverpainting (Aug 21, 2020)

CApainter said:


> Why are these folks escaping the Urban life? Is it due to the Corona virus, lawlessness, general urban noise and congestion, retirement, or all of the above?


I think all of the above! The housing market here is insane!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Why are these folks escaping the Urban life? Is it due to the Corona virus, lawlessness, general urban noise and congestion, retirement, or all of the above?


I think it's a combination of all of the above and more. Real estate in rural areas is incredibly cheap. People from the city are buying massive cottages around here for less than half the price they'd pay for similar square footage in the city. Instead of living in urban noise they're getting lakeside property. Less ammenities, but that's never far away. Lots of executive types are working from home and maybe commuting to the city once per week or not at all.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Masterwork said:


> I've had a lot of people calling for work and never following through with the quote. One lady wanted me there at 830pm on a Saturday to give her a quote. I said I could do it Monday and I never heard back from her.


Someone who insisted I be at their house at 8:30pm on a Saturday night is likely not someone I'd bother with. Guaranteed I'm in my jammies at that point.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

That being said, here I am getting ready to go see a potential customer who's probably going to throw a bucket of methyl hydrate at me upon my arrival then insist that I suit up in a full biohazard suit prior to looking at what they want painted. At least that's happening in the middle of the day.

I get a little nervous when being around people who have caged themselves up in their houses since March watching 24hr news channels. There's no way that much isolation hasn't left some mental scars.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Someone who insisted I be at their house at 8:30pm on a Saturday night is likely not someone I'd bother with. Guaranteed I'm in my jammies at that point.


Now I’m trying to reconcile the screen name Wildbill with a fella who’s in his “jammies” at 8:30 on a Saturday night. 



Keep that ban hammer holstered, Bill. Just poking a little fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Now I’m trying to reconcile the screen name Wildbill with a fella who’s in his “jammies” at 8:30 on a Saturday night.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're probably right. I've had that screen name for a very long time now. I'd have to assume that 'mildbill7145' is probably a more accurate descriptor at this point but doesn't pack the same oomph as wildbill. lol. So many factors numb one as the days pass. Marriage, owning a home, sounding like popcorn when you get out of a chair, etc.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Although I have admitted that 2020 has resulted in the most hours I've ever worked in my entire lifetime, there are some pretty strict Covid -19 guidelines I've had to follow since the outbreak. For example:
1. Constant face covering when in any building
2. Daily health status questionnaire
3. Daily end of day tracking report
4. Maintain 6.5 ft. of social distancing
5. Attend zoom, or "Teams" meetings
6. Tracking reports of Contractor visits
7. Relocate to mobile offices, or converted shipping containers
8. Maintain restricted occupancy protocols. This one really gets to me because some locations require one occupant at a time. So, I find myself waiting for someone to take their sweet ass time before they leave so I can enter.

9. Endless space improvements to accommodate Covid 19.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> Why are these folks escaping the Urban life? Is it due to the Corona virus, lawlessness, general urban noise and congestion, retirement, or all of the above?


Speaking from one place in the world...I'm not there any longer, but grew up in the Hudson Valley of NY - was rural, dairy farm country - about an hour drive from NYC. Most of my family is still there. Once the shizzle hit the fan, real estate prices skyrocketed. This was long before the Floyd eruption.

So it was the virus. The "lawlessness" thing is typical sensationalism. The "general urban noise and congestion" is a way of putting things for people who don't like cities. Lots of people, especially "New Yorkers" love the urban "noise." I'm not among them and am more prone to see it as noise and congestion. When I bought a house it was down a rural backroad in the woods. But a lot of people thrive on the vitality of it all.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Wildbill7145 said:


> You're probably right. I've had that screen name for a very long time now. I'd have to assume that 'mildbill7145' is probably a more accurate descriptor at this point but doesn't pack the same oomph as wildbill. lol. So many factors numb one as the days pass. Marriage, owning a home, sounding like popcorn when you get out of a chair, etc.


I'm sticking with the _Wild_ bill aura. Its more fun that way


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

thornation said:


> Just found this thread and just wanna share my piece of the cake. Work has been mellow for quite a while now. I've been hired by a construction company on a per project basis. Luckily, they received projects which are deemed "essential" during this pandemic. I mainly work on healthcare facility expansion now, it's quite scary because of the health risk, but it's also a blessing since I still have a decent source of income despite everything going on. Good thing construction projects are still considered essential, you can learn more about essential jobs during the pandemic to give you an idea of what you could do as an alternative to your usual job.


So, you’re brand new to this forum and you want us to click on the ‘learn more’ link in your post? Nope.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Well, Ontario was already in lockdown after Christmas. As of last night, state of emergency declared so the province is trying to figure out what this all means. Sounds like we went from 'lockdown light' to stay at home order. People are actually asking whether or not you're allowed to walk their dogs. Lucky me, I've managed to find another big empty house to paint from top to bottom. Gonna be there out in the middle of nowhere by myself again for weeks on end. This is all getting a little draining.

Only thing I'm a little concerned about is getting there every day. People are talking about whether the cops are going to be pulling folks over and questioning your reasons for travel, then using their own discretion as to whether what you are doing is 'essential'. I've looked it up and determined that I'm allowed to keep this job going, but still it's a little unnerving.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I made it from Goderich to Elmira with no issues, this morning. Also, just as much traffic as usual. Seems like this "lockdown" isn't anything near what we had in the spring.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

Interested to know the state of things from the rest of the forum. 

Here in SoCal on Union projects, things are definitely slow. Residential and open shop are still plugging along but slowing down. Our Paint Reps who call on lots of different companies talk about everyone they visit having slowed down. Many of my friends in the rest of the country are as busy as ever. Lots of people had their best year last year.

We just bid a Large job and called the Hall to see how many Painters are on the list (Looking for work) Currently there are 67. To give perspective, even in 2008-2009 the worst it ever was was 10-15. 

There are a few things to consider that affect our company specifically: 
1) California is not super Business Friendly even without Corona Virus.
2) We are in a specific niche (We don't do small jobs and we don't do the REALLY big jobs (Bridges/Powerplants/Pipelines) 
3) We are Union

We are going to survive, but I worry there are a lot that won't. I also believe (in the US) that things slow down in CA and NY before they slow down everywhere. (Starting with Commercial working down to Residential) Buddy of ours that is out of NJ told us the other day that Manhattan is basically a ghost town right now. 

Hoping everyone stays busy! And interested to hear if anyone else has seen signs of slowdown in your area?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Masterwork said:


> I made it from Goderich to Elmira with no issues, this morning. Also, just as much traffic as usual. Seems like this "lockdown" isn't anything near what we had in the spring.


Yikes. That's a long drive for work. Yep, people are getting fed up. Rules are no longer making sense. Total lack of information, contradictory information, etc. I spent hours yesterday trying to find out whether or not I could keep going. Ended up finding out I was in the exact same situation I was during the Spring lockdown. As long as a job has started prior to a specific date, it's allowed to continue.

I even called the 1800 number that's supposed to resolve any questions for small businesses. Got a one minute message giving me a few more numbers to call about nothing that pertained to me, then got hung up on. lol.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Yeah, I moved from Kitchener a few years ago. Still getting lots of work in that area.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm finding it difficult to schedule work with any helpers, as it is a challenge to "socially distance" when working in the same room. Finding I'm taking the small jobs myself, because there's no way to work with more than one person in a room and follow safe protocols.

We specialize in re-paints, so we are typically in customers homes, and working in spaces that are difficult to spread out maintain space.

Just received a call today from a customer that was scheduled for next week. They tested Positive for Covid (tests came back today), are now in quarantine and need to cancel.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I splurged on some N95 masks for residential jobs.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Here in so cal, adjacent to la county, work was really busy august thru December. Now it seems to be slowing down a bit. (Kinda normal for me)
I send out a Covid safety protocols agreement I made back mid November for our interior clients. They agree to it, we come paint. Seems to work well and the people who are careful seem to appreciate it. Since the weather has been nice, exterior work is chugging along well too. Like I said though it seems to be slowing down some. Hopefully things will just keep moving along. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

juanvaldez said:


> Here in so cal, adjacent to la county, work was really busy august thru December. Now it seems to be slowing down a bit. (Kinda normal for me)
> I send out a Covid safety protocols agreement I made back mid November for our interior clients. They agree to it, we come paint. Seems to work well and the people who are careful seem to appreciate it. Since the weather has been nice, exterior work is chugging along well too. Like I said though it seems to be slowing down some. Hopefully things will just keep moving along.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 That's just January. People are paying off thier Visa. Good time to go surfing.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I had a 4 day job lined up for after the new year. Major PIA customer, but it was a rental and I wouldn't have to deal with her much. I swore in the past I'd never deal with her again. The night before I was supposed to start she texts me and says kitchen cabinet guys will be in there for a few days and they made her sign a covid contract meaning that no other trades would be in the building for two days prior to them starting and while they are working. She said I would have to wait a week before starting.

I told her she'd have to find someone else and good luck with that. We'd booked this months prior. Luckily it didn't slow me down a bit, I just went somewhere else. Never going to talk to her again.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So, the commute home in the San Francisco Bay Area is moving towards pre Covid conditions. Traffic is increasing exponentially due to the increase of workers returning to their jobs. This was confirmed as I barely missed smashing into the car in front of me as the driver suddenly slowed to gawk at a group of flag wavers on the pedestrian overpass. 

The good old days of Lock Down traffic are sadly ending.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

This morning I'm reading headlines where the provincial police are pleading with people to stop calling 911 to ask questions about lock down restrictions. Basically, everyone is trying to find loop holes to keep doing what they want to do and carry on like normal.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> So, the commute home in the San Francisco Bay Area is moving towards pre Covid conditions. Traffic is increasing exponentially due to the increase of workers returning to their jobs. This was confirmed as I barely missed smashing into the car in front of me as the driver suddenly slowed to gawk at a group of flag wavers on the pedestrian overpass.
> 
> The good old days of Lock Down traffic are sadly ending.


The Pandemic is getting worse, not better. 
Covid set to become leading cause of death in US (again). 

Notably, x-rays reveal severe, permanent scarring of the lungs for many affected.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Supposed to start a job, Monday, but now someone has tested positive for covid. So I'm staying far away for a few weeks.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> This morning I'm reading headlines where the provincial police are pleading with people to stop calling 911 to ask questions about lock down restrictions. Basically, everyone is trying to find loop holes to keep doing what they want to do and carry on like normal.


Sadly, that's why there's 3000 cases a day in Ontario. We have only about 4 active cases here in NL. And they're all travel related. Coming from either TO or Calgary..Every time its non Essential travel, people get pretty agitated. Doesn't help that the TO airport is the major artery for travel.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I live in an area where there are almost no restrictions at all. It's frustrating, because I see and meet a lot of people that have been sick. 

Everything is open: schools, gyms, restaurants. No travel restrictions, no work restrictions.
Masks are encouraged but not enforced.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Holland said:


> I live in an area where there are almost no restrictions at all. It's frustrating, because I see and meet a lot of people that have been sick.
> 
> Everything is open: schools, gyms, restaurants. No travel restrictions, no work restrictions.
> Masks are encouraged but not enforced.


That’s my kind of area! People have absolutely lost their minds in the past year. This shutdown will have negative economic ripple effects for the rest of this decade. All the people who are afraid can stay home and be a hermit for the rest of their lives. We do not wear masks in someone’s house and if asked to wear a mask on a job I simply pass on it. Case in point, job we’re on now the neighbors to the left of the house we’re at go for a walk everyday. They both have masks on and it’s only the two of them with nobody else in sight! You have got to be kidding me!?!?!? That’s just plain crazy. We need to open up and end this nonsense. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

The new strain of Covid is ramping up in the US. It’s most likely going to be worse before it gets better.

I put off that woodgrain job indefinitely. I’ve got too much going on right now to deal with other trades in the house and non mask wearers around me.

I want to add- me and my family know personally of several people that have DIED of COVID, the youngest being in her early thirties. 
It’s not a joke. If you can’t wear a mask or wash your hands, stay home and out of my face. I’ve stopped frequenting local businesses for being lax about following the CDC guidelines. Gone, no more business from me.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

jr.sr. painting said:


> That’s my kind of area! People have absolutely lost their minds in the past year. This shutdown will have negative economic ripple effects for the rest of this decade. All the people who are afraid can stay home and be a hermit for the rest of their lives. We do not wear masks in someone’s house and if asked to wear a mask on a job I simply pass on it. Case in point, job we’re on now the neighbors to the left of the house we’re at go for a walk everyday. They both have masks on and it’s only the two of them with nobody else in sight! You have got to be kidding me!?!?!? That’s just plain crazy. We need to open up and end this nonsense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I reject that position outright.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Holland said:


> I reject that position outright.


What’s your position?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Science over feelings









US life expectancy drops dramatically due to COVID-19


It's the largest drop in life expectancy in at least 40 years.




www.livescience.com


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I have no idea why people go off about other people wearing a mask while in their car alone or walking outside or whatever. Calling people crazy or stupid or whatever is ridiculous. You've got no idea what their medical situation is. Maybe they're just trying to get used to wearing one. Maybe it just makes them feel more comfortable or whatever. Judging someone because they're wearing a mask for whatever reason while they're doing anything is just silly. It's really none of your business what choices they're making in this regard. Why would anyone care what someone else is wearing?

I've been pretty happy thus far that PT hasn't had much incidence of anti mask rhetoric. I hope it stays that way. This is a pretty serious situation we're all dealing with.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

If they were wearing an n95 I’d say yes they’re protecting themselves and others. But the blue paper ones, a bandanna, or one of those homemade jobbers? Those are nothing but a feel good government mandate. 


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

jr.sr. painting said:


> If they were wearing an n95 I’d say yes they’re protecting themselves and others. But the blue paper ones, a bandanna, or one of those homemade jobbers? Those are nothing but a feel good government mandate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh man... The list of science I could link you you to....

No point, though. People like you are never going to change their minds. I bet you could lose someone close to you due to Covid and you'd blame it on something else.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Let's keep the discussion respectful folks. Don't care how you feel about the issue being discussed. No name calling whatsoever. Period.
I understand this is a highly polarized issue. Whichever side of that teeter totter you're on, if you need to walk away from the discussion do so. Don't want to see any members going on a vacation from the forum.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Masterwork said:


> Oh man... The list of science I could link you you to....
> 
> No point, though. People like you are never going to change their minds. I bet you could lose someone close to you due to Covid and you'd blame it on something else. You're a brain dead fool.


In the same post you say you use science but let emotions get the best of you. Doesn’t sound to scientific to me. I don’t need to get all bent out of shape over it. What good is a layer of fabric going to do? Put one on and cough. It stops nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> I live in an area where there are almost no restrictions at all. It's frustrating, because I see and meet a lot of people that have been sick.
> 
> Everything is open: schools, gyms, restaurants. No travel restrictions, no work restrictions.
> Masks are encouraged but not enforced.


That sounds fantastic We have plenty of restrictions and mandatory mask wearing and there's a lot who've gotten it so I don't think it really matters My kids need to be back in school, they're learning nothing with this virtual learning from home!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Although in violation of the NYS COVID mandates, I’ll stick with my CDC tested & approved “valved respirator” with P-100 cartridges, both of which have been tested and approved by the CDC, are NIOSH stamped, and provide 99.97% efficacy against the COVID, yet they’re in violation of the NYS mandate when in a situation where it’s not possible to socially distance...yet the cloth masks and other non-scientifically tested face coverings which provide little and/or questionable efficacy based on pre-COVID studies, are permitted.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Rbriggs82 said:


> That sounds fantastic We have plenty of restrictions and mandatory mask wearing and there's a lot who've gotten it so I don't think it really matters My kids need to be back in school, they're learning nothing with this virtual learning from home!


My man! That’s a great point about the kids and I think about that often seeing kids riding their bikes at 1 in the afternoon on school days. These kids are going to be socially awkward morons.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

jr.sr. painting said:


> In the same post you say you use science but let emotions get the best of you. Doesn’t sound to scientific to me. I don’t need to get all bent out of shape over it. What good is a layer of fabric going to do? Put one on and cough. It stops nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Here’s a study by scientists testing different fabrics. You might be surprised what a piece of cotton can do.



https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252#



It’s unfortunate that the mask mandate hasn’t included some sort of education on how to choose the best mask option for oneself. N-95’s are generally not readily available.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

The way masks are worn is a different story. That might hold true for a brand new mask out of the package. Most masks are re used over and over, people put them on with dirty fingers, store them in dirty pockets, let them dangle from their rear view mirrors and then straight to their face. Repeat that cycle until the mask starts falling apart and then onto another one. Meanwhile I go get a coffee and the person handles my money with the gloves the just buttered a bagel with and then straight back to the next person’s food. That’s just nasty. 


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

jr.sr. painting said:


> The way masks are worn is a different story. That might hold true for a brand new mask out of the package. Most masks are re used over and over, people put them on with dirty fingers, store them in dirty pockets, let them dangle from their rear view mirrors and then straight to their face. Repeat that cycle until the mask starts falling apart and then onto another one. Meanwhile I go get a coffee and the person handles my money with the gloves the just buttered a bagel with and then straight back to the next person’s food. That’s just nasty.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now I think gloves are a different thing; as far as Covid I believe they’re pointless. 

If I saw a food handler use their dirty glove on my bagel, I’d refuse it. Then I’d call the manager. Yes, I’m that person. Lol.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Redux said:


> Although in violation of the NYS COVID mandates, I’ll stick with my CDC tested & approved “valved respirator” with P-100 cartridges, both of which have been tested and approved by the CDC, are NIOSH stamped, and provide 99.97% efficacy against the COVID, yet they’re in violation of the NYS mandate when in a situation where it’s not possible to socially distance...yet the cloth masks and other non-scientifically tested face coverings which provide little and/or questionable efficacy based on pre-COVID studies, are permitted.


I did not go look up the details regarding NYS mandates or specs. But valved respirators have a problem where they only filter air on the way in, but not on the way out. So to the extent that masks/respirators do help, it's to reduce (though obviously most don't _eliminate_) contamination in both directions - both input and output. The valves don't handle the output end. So to the extent that they work (and I have no doubt that they do, but I'm not trying to play any "sides" in this convo), the valved ones only work for you but not those around you.

This is my understanding of the valved respirators, and, as I said, I didn't go look up details on what NYS includes or doesn't or why and etc.

_[And here I'm branching off to the general discussion, no longer replying to Redux's post]_
Personally, I just wear a mask so that I can fit in... 😝 But seriously, it's more just that if it reduces the risk that I pose to others then I don't see why I wouldn't. And _if it doesn't_ reduce the risk to others (i.e. even if people claim the science is wrong or they have "alternative facts"), then I don't see any way that I've been harmed by participating in current public health measures. It's sort of like that old Pascal argument about why logic dictates that non-belief in God is illogical. If you believe in God, but it turns out that God does not exist, then so what? But if you _don't_ believe in God, but God _does_ exist - well, now you're f'd. (Of course, I'm basically somewhere between atheist and agnostic, so I guess I just don't care about logic? ;-)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Holland said:


> I live in an area where there are almost no restrictions at all. It's frustrating, because I see and meet a lot of people that have been sick.
> 
> Everything is open: schools, gyms, restaurants. No travel restrictions, no work restrictions.
> Masks are encouraged but not enforced.





Holland said:


> The Pandemic is getting worse, not better.
> Covid set to become leading cause of death in US (again).
> 
> Notably, x-rays reveal severe, permanent scarring of the lungs for many affected.


Be that as it may, people are practically killing themselves to get to work where I live.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

In terms of mask wearing, I'm actually a professional at it. It's second nature to me during this pandemic. The mask of choice is a CAT 2 rated baclava. We were told the N95's dust masks with exhausts were not to be used unless we are working in conditions where nuisance dust was present. I find social distancing pretty easy since I'm some what anti social. It's been a great excuse to avoid people I've otherwise been obligated to interact with. Teams has been pretty cool for business meetings.

Teams: A whole nother subject. How about some of the conduct on that platform?


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

Holland said:


> I live in an area where there are almost no restrictions at all. It's frustrating, because I see and meet a lot of people that have been sick.
> 
> Everything is open: schools, gyms, restaurants. No travel restrictions, no work restrictions.
> Masks are encouraged but not enforced.


Sounds like UT or ID to me! 

We have Family in Southern UT and it's like the whole population refuses to even acknowledge that Covid is real!


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

kentdalimp said:


> Sounds like UT or ID to me!
> 
> We have Family in Southern UT and it's like the whole population refuses to even acknowledge that Covid is real!


Well...as you know, there is currently a world-wide conspiracy. It involves virtually all governments on the whole planet at all levels. It involves virtually all medical/health professionals and scientists on the entire planet. It involves virtually all new organizations that "make up" stories about overflowing hospitals and their ICU units, including even the claims that their ability to supply oxygen for the ill is being taxed. The staging is apparently as intense and intricate as that which went into faking the moon launch and that ridiculous story that the planet is actually round (ish).

And this entire world-wide conspiracy was all, quite nefariously, dreamed up just because there's this one guy "they" don't like. I can't remember who the one guy - the "victim" - is right now. But since this is just one big global conspiracy cooked up just to tarnish the reputation of this one guy, you can safely ignore the whole thing.

😝


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

Joe67 said:


> Well...as you know, there is currently a world-wide conspiracy. It involves virtually all governments on the whole planet at all levels. It involves virtually all medical/health professionals and scientists on the entire planet. It involves virtually all new organizations that "make up" stories about overflowing hospitals and their ICU units, including even the claims that their ability to supply oxygen for the ill is being taxed. The staging is apparently as intense and intricate as that which went into faking the moon launch and that ridiculous story that the planet is actually round (ish).
> 
> And this entire world-wide conspiracy was all, quite nefariously, dreamed up just because there's this one guy "they" don't like. I can't remember who the one guy - the "victim" - is right now. But since this is just one big global conspiracy cooked up just to tarnish the reputation of this one guy, you can safely ignore the whole thing.
> 
> 😝


I guess this is what it feels like to be Woke huh?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Graphs from the CDC’s NIOSH 2010 study entitled, “Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles”.

(Author: Samy Rengasamy
National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health/National Personal Protective Technology Laboratory—Technology Research Branch)




























The graph in figure 1. illustrates that the cloth masks tested provide little to no efficacy at filtering out aerosols.
I’ll stick to my selfish “valved” P-100 respirator..by protecting myself and remaining COVID-free, I’m protecting others.

Simple Respiratory Protection—Evaluation of the Filtration Performance of Cloth Masks and Common Fabric Materials Against 20–1000 nm Size Particles


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I prefer the "selfish valved mask" also, as I wear glasses, and they are the only ones that don't fog up. However, many seem to frown upon them when used in public space. oh, well- better than nothing.

Found a few interesting facts by the technical and regulatory manager at 3M Dr. Nikki McCullough:

Respirator vs. Face Mask

"your average face mask doesn’t filter small particles while you breathe, acting instead as a “barrier” to catch large particles and droplets."

KN95s and N95s, on the other hand, are respirators. While a cloth face mask might allow some gaps—such as at the bridge of the nose or near the cheeks—respirators, McCullough says, should seal completely to the skin.

These respirators filter out 95 percent of particles that are 0.3 microns or larger in diameter, explains Dr. Michael Schivo, a pulmonologist and an associate professor of internal medicine at UC Davis Health.

“That’s important because most bacteria are larger than 0.3 microns,” he says. “Many virus particles are small, and some are smaller than 0.3 microns, but they’re suspended in water droplets that make them effectively bigger. So these masks filter out 95 percent of those small particles.”


Difference Between N95 and KN95:
"KN95s are typically regulated by the Chinese government, while N95s are regulated by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health in the U.S.
Approved KN95s will perform almost identically to N95s"


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

What about surgical masks?

The CBC here in Canada did a study. Surgical masks were close to N95.
www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5795481


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

As a painter there are worse things to have than a stockpile of masks when this is all over.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

The superiority of N95 for filtering is really old news. Not sure what the Ross Perot moment does for anyone. But it doesn't "kill" the other old news many other kinds of masks _reduce_ particulates. And the fact that different fabrics/constructions/etc. are variable in that regard is also old news. Yes - some are nearly useless (like a cheap t-shirt - might as well not bother). But many others, not so much useless as just highly variable in their efficacy. As for the valved designs, it's simply the most likely reason that they aren't on some "approved" list. Obviously people will do with these things what they will.


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