# Power sanders



## OT Painting (Mar 2, 2019)

It’s been a while since a used a sander to prep surfaces due to all the dust that would fly around. So now I’m looking at the Festool sanders. What sander is best for prepping painted and old varnished brown doors that will be painted white, a random orbital sander, an orbital sander or a rectangular sander ?
Thanks


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

OT Painting said:


> It’s been a while since a used a sander to prep surfaces due to all the dust that would fly around. So now I’m looking at the Festool sanders. What sander is best for prepping painted and old varnished brown doors that will be painted white, a random orbital sander, an orbital sander or a rectangular sander ?
> Thanks


For that I'd use my DTS 400 and possibly a ets 125 because it's a little faster. 

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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

The RTS 400, rectangle is by far our most used sander, You can get these "interface pads" they come in a two pack, stack on or two between your sandpaper and sander for more contours.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

MikeCalifornia said:


> The RTS 400, rectangle is by far our most used sander, You can get these "interface pads" they come in a two pack, stack on or two between your sandpaper and sander for more contours.


I had a Festool RTS400 and returned it. I found that it burned through the BIN primer or topcoat too aggressively (even using 320 grit), especially around the panels and corners. It's also a bit too high.

I plan on buying a SurfPrep 3"x4" sander for cabinets. They sell the padded sanding pads and it is low profile with better balancing. It has gotten rave reviews in the FB finishing Groups.



https://surfprepsanding.com/product/3x4-electric-ray-sanders/


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

why do these things gotta be so darn expensive.? $500 just for the sander. Does that include the vaccuum hookup? I still use my 5" Dewalt with a bag attachment. Sometimes I'll hook my shop vac to it..Could see it being handy in a clients house..


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah I use 320 when sanding Bin any lower and you're eating through it. 

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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> why do these things gotta be so darn expensive.? $500 just for the sander. Does that include the vaccuum hookup? I still use my 5" Dewalt with a bag attachment. Sometimes I'll hook my shop vac to it..Could see it being handy in a clients house..


If I were in an area with texture, where I assume you rarely sand drywall patches, I probably wouldn't own a festool setup. That said, it's the bees knees for sanding smooth drywall. I can sand mud with my ets 125 directly over my face and not have a speck of dust on me.

Plus it's a big selling point for new clients who've previously experienced the amount of dust sanding mud can generate. I sell it and point them to a video on my website demonstrating it. 

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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Yeah I use 320 when sanding Bin any lower and you're eating through it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


I meant to say 320. I still burn through it. A lot of those paneled cabinet doors are not exactly perfectly flat in some areas. Time and time again I'm forced to seal the bare wood after sanding with a rattle can of BIN and then hand sand very delicately.


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## OT Painting (Mar 2, 2019)

So a random orbital sander and/or a rectangular sander are ok for surface prep then ?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> I meant to say 320. I still burn through it. A lot of those paneled cabinet doors are not exactly perfectly flat in some areas. Time and time again I'm forced to seal the bare wood after sanding with a rattle can of BIN and then hand sand very delicately.


I had the same problem so now I don't sand the bin, I'll wait until I put a coat of Breakthrough on then sand. Breakthrough sands to powder just like the bin buy doesn't burn through as easy. 

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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

OT Painting said:


> So a random orbital sander and/or a rectangular sander are ok for surface prep then ?


Yeah they're both good for surface prep. I tend to use the random orbital (ets 125) more for drywall work and the DTS 400 for trim type work. The DTS and RTS are exactly the same only the RTS is rectangular and the DTS is a delta shape. 

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I bought the Festool midi and a DTS400EQ triangular head sander primarily for doing window sills. I love that entire setup. Since I only do interior work, it has proved to be an amazingly versatile little beastie. Never felt the need to get any other attachments, but if I did I would consider them an investment well made.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> I had a Festool RTS400 and returned it. I found that it burned through the BIN primer or topcoat too aggressively (even using 320 grit), especially around the panels and corners. It's also a bit too high.
> 
> I plan on buying a SurfPrep 3"x4" sander for cabinets. They sell the padded sanding pads and it is low profile with better balancing. It has gotten rave reviews in the FB finishing Groups.
> 
> ...



I have the surfprep too!! I use it mainly for cabinets, front doors with small panels. The 3x4 takes longer to sand with vs the 4x6 festool, especially on flat surfaces. I feel the surfprep pads are not as good at smoothing out waterbase finishes as the festool sandpaper is. The pads are great for clears, primers like BIN, and lacquer.
On the BIN, you have to remember it is extremely thin and just hand pad sanding will burn the edges, so its really not the sander or the paper.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> why do these things gotta be so darn expensive.? $500 just for the sander. Does that include the vaccuum hookup? I still use my 5" Dewalt with a bag attachment. Sometimes I'll hook my shop vac to it..Could see it being handy in a clients house..



The surfprep is $500, the Festool RTS is like $250ish? The difference is total quality of the machine and there is no comparison when you put the sander on a surface. Most cheap RO sanders will leave swirl mark that are hard to sand out, not so with these sanders. IMO the HEPA sanders are so much better than just a regular shop vac. All waste goes into a bag instead of the shop vac, that needs to be cleaned out. For me I made the jump and have never questioned cost.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It seems like most painters I’ve met barely touch their sanders. It’s unfortunate because sanding makes a huge difference in the finish quality of your work.

After investing in Festool sanders I don’t spending a little extra time sanding. For me the smoother finish is worth it. Plus, the experience of using Festool sander is so much better. The ergonomics are better and I can sand for several hours without getting a numb tingling sensation in my hands.




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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

PNW Painter said:


> It seems like most painters I’ve met barely touch their sanders. It’s unfortunate because sanding makes a huge difference in the finish quality of your work.
> 
> After investing in Festool sanders I don’t spending a little extra time sanding. For me the smoother finish is worth it. Plus, the experience of using Festool sander is so much better. The ergonomics are better and I can sand for several hours without getting a numb tingling sensation in my hands.
> 
> ...


What are you normally sanding for several hours?


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## OT Painting (Mar 2, 2019)

Thanks for the info peeps.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> What are you normally sanding for several hours?


Though I haven’t taken on the bigger jobs for awhile now, it wasn’t uncommon to have it take that long (or much longer) in a bigger home where we needed to sand most of the bottom and sides of the stained window casings where fading had occurred and the clear coat had broken down. If any door or cabinet refinishing was also needed then you could easily eclipse that.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

We would always DA our wood trim packs on new homes...that would take several hours. 

I was always satisfied with with Porter Cable right angle RO sanders. Had about 10 of them....no way was I spending $500 for sanders for guys to take out of shop. The PC were about $150, did a good job, and lasted forever.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> What are you normally sanding for several hours?




Trim packs and in some rare cases decks.

The level of my prep is pretty high compared to many painters in my area. Im pretty OCD when it comes to prep work and I’ll sand the entire trim pack after it’s primed. 


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

I JUST got my festool sander & dust extractor before the 10% deal ended in 2019 (ordered on 12/31 haha). Spent like 4 months obsessively researching & trying out the various options at my local dealer. 

For doors I’d highly recommend you check out the rotex 90. It’s got gear driven mode + random orbital + the optional triangle vibration attachment (that’ll help get into all those raised panel nooks n crannies). 

I joined the festool owners group forum before purchasing & asked every single questions I could think of..they’re all really helpful & happy to give advice based on your use n desires. 

There’s A LOT of members who LOVE their RO90 despite the size & say it comes in handy way more often than a lot of their other ones. 

Ended up going with Rotex 125 + Midi extractor although a lot of ppl recommend the ets-ec 125, I knew the gear drive mode would come in handy sooner rather than later. Plan on getting the ets as soon as I’m able though as its a fabulous finish sander & the balance is amazing. Also love that u can add the 150 pad to it (the 150 doesn’t accept 125) so I can cover more area when needed. 

Have been happy with the RO125 although I do wish I coulda gone with the 150 since I loved how powerful the motor was but it was just too big for my female hands to comfortably use for extended periods of time.

Only other CON has been that although I got the 5” 125- I can’t use my paper stock cuz festool hole patterns don’t line up. I’ve had to start a new collection but the garnat paper HAS been super impressive & lasts way longer than my others.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> I had a Festool RTS400 and returned it. I found that it burned through the BIN primer or topcoat too aggressively (even using 320 grit), especially around the panels and corners. It's also a bit too high.
> 
> I plan on buying a SurfPrep 3"x4" sander for cabinets. They sell the padded sanding pads and it is low profile with better balancing. It has gotten rave reviews in the FB finishing Groups.
> 
> ...




I want a surfprep SO bad...just haven’t been able to justify it yet but its a brilliant concept. Keep meaning to see if there’s a way to add foam backed padding to a regular sheet sander or my rotex since that’s really the true genius of it all.


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 20, 2020)

Hello in there, this is my first post and yes, I’m greener than grass, but this is just the thread I’m looking for.
I originally wanted to talk paint which I can get to that later.
Anyway, here’s what I’m up against. I’m sanding the interior of my log home about 2500 linear feet of untreated spruce.
I’m about 500 linear feet deep and already cooked a Black and Decker orbital sander and just bought a Bosch as a replacement using 40 grit with vacuum attachment.
Yes, it’s a tedious time consuming venture but I have lots of time.
You guys mentioned a few sanders I’ve never heard of, but considering the application what would be the best sander for this job as I’m sure the Bosch won’t last much longer.
Thanks,
Joh


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## Gypo Logger (Feb 20, 2020)

I forgot to mention that I’m living in the house otherwise I’d just use an angle grinder.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

PPD said:


> I JUST got my festool sander & dust extractor before the 10% deal ended in 2019 (ordered on 12/31 haha). Spent like 4 months obsessively researching & trying out the various options at my local dealer.
> 
> For doors I’d highly recommend you check out the rotex 90. It’s got gear driven mode + random orbital + the optional triangle vibration attachment (that’ll help get into all those raised panel nooks n crannies).
> 
> ...



Wow, you got the RO125 for your first sander!! I have one and its a beast, we mainly use for fascia boards. Let me know if you have any interest in the DTS, delta head sander. I thought I would use it way more, but I love the RTS so much. I have one practically brand new.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Gypo Logger said:


> Hello in there, this is my first post and yes, I’m greener than grass, but this is just the thread I’m looking for.
> I originally wanted to talk paint which I can get to that later.
> Anyway, here’s what I’m up against. I’m sanding the interior of my log home about 2500 linear feet of untreated spruce.
> I’m about 500 linear feet deep and already cooked a Black and Decker orbital sander and just bought a Bosch as a replacement using 40 grit with vacuum attachment.
> ...



For 40grit or higher, RO125 for sure. You could add a backup pad for better contouring. But you are looking at a $400 sander plus paper


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PPD said:


> I want a surfprep SO bad...just haven’t been able to justify it yet but its a brilliant concept. Keep meaning to see if there’s a way to add foam backed padding to a regular sheet sander or my rotex since that’s really the true genius of it all.


Buy an interface pad and you'll be surf prepping with a festool.

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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Wow, you got the RO125 for your first sander!! I have one and its a beast, we mainly use for fascia boards. Let me know if you have any interest in the DTS, delta head sander. I thought I would use it way more, but I love the RTS so much. I have one practically brand new.




Ohhhh why u gotta tempt a girl?! 

Everyone warned me....Don’t stress too much, they said, ....you’ll be back to buy another sander soon. - I thought: Nooo way! @ this price its gunna be a 1 & done, even if it pays for itself I can’t justify that kinda money for prep tools....

Fast forward 1 week later & I’d sanded 23 primed MDF panels...never had to strap up a fine filter mask, shop is just as clean as when I started, paper thats barely worn, no hand fatigue or tingling even after extended use, & MOST important....a finish thats A+ perfect! 

I’m head over heels...Have already been creepin listings for lightly used ets ec. 

It is a beast for sure but I love it oh so much! My variable speed makita (which I thought was pricey @ the time ) always seemed to take 4ever w/ fine grit & was never quite good enough so I’d end up hand sandin the final stage.

Festool is magic fairy dust I tell ya...its impossible to describe until you own one & then its like “how the in H*ll did I live without this for so long?!” 

Now I’m off to research the DTS delta


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PPD said:


> Ohhhh why u gotta tempt a girl?!
> 
> Everyone warned me....Don’t stress too much, they said, ....you’ll be back to buy another sander soon. - I thought: Nooo way! @ this price its gunna be a 1 & done, even if it pays for itself I can’t justify that kinda money for prep tools....
> 
> ...


Yeah, it is kind of like a drug. I own six, and I keep on trying to find an excuse to get theLS 130..the one the shapes to uneven surfaces like crown moldings.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

When I first bought my Festool I figured that when I eventually retired I would sell it as part of scaling back. Nope - I will never sell it. My wife may get rid of it after I’m dead and gone - but I won’t.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> My wife may get rid of it after I’m dead and gone - but I won’t.



If you were able to get rid of it after you're dead and gone..... I'd be impressed.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you were able to get rid of it after you're dead and gone..... I'd be impressed.


Well, you can't take it with you.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you were able to get rid of it after you're dead and gone..... I'd be impressed.


Well, I do like it - but not enough to come back for it.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

PPD said:


> Ohhhh why u gotta tempt a girl?!
> 
> Everyone warned me....Don’t stress too much, they said, ....you’ll be back to buy another sander soon. - I thought: Nooo way! @ this price its gunna be a 1 & done, even if it pays for itself I can’t justify that kinda money for prep tools....
> 
> ...



This is pretty much what I tell everyone that’s thinking about buying Festool sanders.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you were able to get rid of it after you're dead and gone..... I'd be impressed.





PPD said:


> Ohhhh why u gotta tempt a girl?!
> 
> Everyone warned me....Don’t stress too much, they said, ....you’ll be back to buy another sander soon. - I thought: Nooo way! @ this price its gunna be a 1 & done, even if it pays for itself I can’t justify that kinda money for prep tools....
> 
> ...


My view is that Festool has taken an odious task and made it almost enjoyable.


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## AnthonyFalzon (Feb 24, 2020)

Agreed.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

RH said:


> Well, I do like it - but not enough to come back for it.


I guess you won't know until the time comes....don't count it out. I'd happily haunt my rotex.


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## vwbowman (May 15, 2017)

Find your the Festool dealer in your area and ask for a demo. (I am a retailer in Eugene, OR) They should bring a few of the options with a dust extractor and let you use them for an afternoon. Festool is an investment, so take the time and get what works best for you. Also, they have a 30 day NO QUESTIONS return policy. One of their most versatile sanders is the RO 90 - a dual mode sander that allows you to switch from a round 3" head to a triangular head. I have started many customers out with it as their first!


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## curiouspainter (Jun 19, 2019)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you were able to get rid of it after you're dead and gone..... I'd be impressed.


Bury along with me


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## curiouspainter (Jun 19, 2019)

Just want to say...thanks for this thread...surprisingly hard to find these type of recommendations on the web. Most seem to thing of vac systems as the non-portable kind...painters gotta keep moving


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

curiouspainter said:


> Just want to say...thanks for this thread...surprisingly hard to find these type of recommendations on the web. Most seem to thing of vac systems as the non-portable kind...painters gotta keep moving


Yep, since this thread started, I have aquired 3 festool sanders and the vacuum to go with it. It has been a game changer. Mostly use the RTS 400 for prepping cabinets and drywall repairs with the mesh paper. Sanding has never been so pleasurable.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

re: sandpaper

The Festool Granat line of sandpaper is considered their most "versatile" paper, but it is a "non-loading" sandpaper, meaning it has a stearate coating on the surface.
In the past, stearate were known to cause fish-eyes in water-based finishes. It has been argued that todays sandpaper manufacturers have made their stearate coating compatible with today's water-based coatings. 

Anyone care to comment?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

@finishesbykevyn "Yep, since this thread started, I have acquired 3 festool sanders and the vacuum to go with it. It has been a game changer. Mostly use the RTS 400 for prepping cabinets and drywall repairs with the mesh paper. Sanding has never been so pleasurable." I do hope you remain happy with the acquisitions! I ended up selling all of my Festool products except the RO 90 DX & even that, I rarely use any more because the corner attachment has had to be replaced 3 times at some cost.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> re: sandpaper
> 
> The Festool Granat line of sandpaper is considered their most "versatile" paper, but it is a "non-loading" sandpaper, meaning it has a stearate coating on the surface.
> In the past, stearate were known to cause fish-eyes in water-based finishes. It has been argued that todays sandpaper manufacturers have made their stearate coating compatible with today's water-based coatings.
> ...


Edit:
Silicon abrasives are a no-no according to a statement by Ilva (see later post), and can result in fisheyes..which I’m guessing includes silicon carbide sanding sponges, 3M 64660 gray synthetic pads, and silicon carbide wet/dry sandpaper.

I do however disagree…can’t find any info to validate that silicon abrasives cause fisheyes and haven’t experienced it myself.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Silicon abrasives are a no-no, and can result in fisheyes..including silicon carbide sanding sponges, 3M 64660 gray synthetic pads, and silicon carbide wet/dry sandpaper.


copy that.

1. Is Granat in fact a non-loading paper?
2. Which (Festool) paper is recommended for general use in painting, and which is best if fisheyes are a concern?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> copy that.
> 
> 1. Is Granat in fact a non-loading paper?
> 2. Which (Festool) paper is recommended for general use in painting, and which is best if fisheyes are a concern?


The Granat is a non-loading abrasive replacing the Brilliant & uses synthetic resins rather than wax plus aluminum oxide w/no silicon…it’s good under waterbornes and won’t promote fisheyes..

I use the Granat as a general purpose abrasive except for sanding bare wood…it cuts wood poorly..


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

On the topic of power sanders I have a question about silicon carbide abrasives for straight line sanders:

Fact or misinformation regarding silicon sandpaper resulting in fisheyes, poor flow out, and adhesion loss?

(I made note in a previous post that silicon is not to be confused with silicone, so I’m aware of the differences.)

I was hoping someone could offer an educated opinion on the following quote from page 77 of Ilva’s HIGH PERFORMANCE INDUSTRIAL WOOD COATINGS manual:

“Never use silicon sanding paper to sand sealer. The failure to observe this fundamental rule may result in "fisheyes", adhesion and flow out problems with all finishes.” 

https://www.ics-ilva.com/downloads/ILVA-Red-Book-5-20-20.pdf

I had stumbled across it when reviewing the sanding and polishing schedule for Ilva’s paraffinated polyester clears to be utilized for some upcoming non-business related work.

Is there any validity to silicon sandpaper potentially resulting in fisheyes and why?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> On the topic of power sanders I have a question about silicon carbide abrasives for straight line sanders:
> 
> Fact or misinformation regarding silicon sandpaper resulting in fisheyes, poor flow out, and adhesion loss?
> 
> ...


like you said…silicon carbide should not cause fisheyes, but stearates have been known to.

I read in a woodworkers forum that ‘white’ silicon paper is sometimes looked at as a culprit for contamination, but I have not been able to verify that again. It could come down to a coating on the paper, or an adhesive in the paper itself, but that wouldn’t apply in a general sense.

I like how the article has a sentence that doesn’t end. Could be misinformation.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

"Stearated sandpaper is most often of the silicon carbide type."


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> "Stearated sandpaper is most often of the silicon carbide type."


I do recall one member here using a 3M silicon carbide synthetic pad before a final waterborne clear, and the clear fisheyed like mad, yet the previous coat(s) when not used were fine..might very well be the type of stearate used or that silicon carbide cuts too uniformly, not providing an adequate scratch profile for finishes requiring a mechanical bond, which could result in crawl/fisheyes.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

jennifertemple said:


> @finishesbykevyn "Yep, since this thread started, I have acquired 3 festool sanders and the vacuum to go with it. It has been a game changer. Mostly use the RTS 400 for prepping cabinets and drywall repairs with the mesh paper. Sanding has never been so pleasurable." I do hope you remain happy with the acquisitions! I ended up selling all of my Festool products except the RO 90 DX & even that, I rarely use any more because the corner attachment has had to be replaced 3 times at some cost.


That is so weird. I bought a Festool MIDI and the DTS 400 a number of years ago and have done a ton of work with them without a single mechanical issue with either.
I hated sanding window sills, doors, trim, etc, but having the Festool took what was an odious chore and turned it into something that is almost pleasurable - almost. When I bought it I figured that when I retired and really wouldn’t need it much any more I would sell it off to recoup some of the initial cost. Nope! Gonna’ keep that baby.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> I do recall one member here using a 3M silicon carbide synthetic pad before a final waterborne clear, and the clear fisheyed like mad, yet the previous coat(s) when not used were fine..might very well be the type of stearate used or that silicon carbide cuts too uniformly, not providing an adequate scratch profile for finishes requiring a mechanical bond, which could result in crawl/fisheyes.


Other than a typo here and there the rest of the information (especially in regards to sanding) is explicit...adhesion/crawling makes sense. Would be interested in hearing the details if you ever find out. The Poly is listed as a "spray" finish. Could that be a factor?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Redux said:


> On the topic of power sanders I have a question about silicon carbide abrasives for straight line sanders:
> 
> Fact or misinformation regarding silicon sandpaper resulting in fisheyes, poor flow out, and adhesion loss?
> 
> ...


A great question, but likely one which won't be answered conclusively any time soon. The foremost "authorities" can't even seem to agree. With regards to Festool, Jerry Work's manual states that one should never use stearated sandpaper on pieces that will receive a water-based finish. Michael Dresdner seems to be in complete agreement. Bob Flexner is on the other side of the argument and professes that fisheyes in water-based finishes are absolutely not caused by the use of stearated paper. Since I respect all 3 of these gentlemen and their contributions to our trade, I'm left no more clear on the matter.

On a side note, I find it interesting that the addition of a fisheye eliminator (Smoothie, for example), seems to be nothing more than a silicone surfactant, so the remedy for fisheyes is to "contaminate" your work piece even more, at least enough to sufficiently reduce the surface tension. In all fairness though, I think there are as many proponents as opponents for fisheye removers, but that's a topic for another debate. My first experience with them was a disaster; brought about by my own doing, and resulted in sheen inconsistencies and adhesion issues. It was entirely operator error though, as I have had success with such products since.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Excuse my stupidity, but how do you know if it's "stearated"? Would that include any of these?









@ Redux I may have been the one with the fisheye problem after using the grey synthetic pad similar to the maroon one on the left..


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

IMO, these types of questions - on a subject like this, highlight the best of what forums such as PT can offer people in the trades.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

The following was taken from a Festool Owners Group chat. It worries me, because I’m not sure which Festool sandpaper is safe to use with waterborne products, and they’re not cheap. Granat appears to use zinc stearate.

“Zinc stearate is used on abrasives intended for sanding finishes as it helps prevent loading of the abrasive.
The reason to beware of it's presence is that it can cause fisheyes and other adhesion problems if you later apply a water based finish.”


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> The following was taken from a Festool Owners Group chat. It worries me, because I’m not sure which Festool sandpaper is safe to use with waterborne products, and they’re not cheap. Granat appears to use zinc stearate.
> 
> “Zinc stearate is used on abrasives intended for sanding finishes as it helps prevent loading of the abrasive.
> The reason to beware of it's presence is that it can cause fisheyes and other adhesion problems if you later apply a water based finish.”


Festool claim is that they don’t use wax(es) in Granat’s stearated non-slip coating layer. Many zinc stearate coated papers did or do contain wax/wax blends in the coating layer, wax being the concern resulting in fisheyes & adhesion loss. I’ve done a lot of adhesion tests of waterborne coatings using the Granat, particularly for floor coatings where adhesion is a critical concern, and the use of Granat hasn’t resulted in adhesion loss when testing.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> Festool claim is that they don’t use wax(es) in Granat’s stearated non-slip coating layer. Many zinc stearate coated papers did or do contain wax/wax blends in the coating layer, wax being the concern resulting in fisheyes & adhesion loss. I’ve done a lot of adhesion tests of waterborne coatings using the Granat, particularly for floor coatings where adhesion is a critical concern, and the use of Granat hasn’t resulted in adhesion loss when testing.


Edit:
thanks @Redux,
Before I drop a couple hundred on papers I just wanted to be sure.

*I appreciate the peace of mind.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> thanks @Redux,
> Before I drop a couple hundred on papers I want to be sure. is there a better paper?
> 
> just checking:
> Has anyone experienced “fisheyes” or have negative experiences with Festool Granat paper?


I’ve used the Granat on a couple of hundred thousand square feet of finished surface area under clear waterborne coatings and have not experienced one fisheye.


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## AmericanMasterworks (Oct 3, 2021)

I love all my festools. I love that they form a “system” and it all works together. It seems the Surfprep (or Ekasand) 3x4 sanders seem to be very highly regarded right now, my experience is mixed. I really like the size and the way it fits in my hand. They sand really nice, but there is nothing magical there. There are some things that I don’t love.

The number one thing that bothers me is if I have it set on Low or Medium speed, it doesn’t activate the AUTO setting on my Festool dust extractor. 
I do not like the paddle on the Surfprep. It forces one to keep their hand in the same position. On my RTS 400 the taller form factor and constant on switch allows multiple hand holds. This somewhat makes up for the form factor. Also if you move your hand off the paddle for for a split second, it triggers the dust extractor to cycle off/on. It irritates me. 

I prefer Festool paper. I prefer Surfprep pads. 🤷‍♀️

Surfprep seems rock solid, very little vibration, excellent customer service. I use it, but not as often thought I would.


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## pulloverweihnachts (Nov 3, 2021)

The RTS 400, rectangle is by far our most used sander,


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## apkplayfree (Dec 1, 2021)

pulloverweihnachts said:


> The RTS 400, rectangle is by far our most used sander,


Yeah That is true.


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## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

I use ETS EC 5- 6"s to remove material and flatten, and ETS EC 3-6"s for smoothing.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

The RO 150 & RTS 400 Req were my go to sanders and used daily for wood prep when in business. Now being a DIYer, I’m currently using both for prepping & refinishing my wood floors, ceilings, and shiplap wall paneling, ~ 5,000 sq ft in total..


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

Love the bung plugs!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Knobbe said:


> Love the bung plugs!


Unfortunately the floors had to be screwed and bunged being that they’re 6/4” thick and installed on a 1700s colonial era oak post & beam framework..the undersides of the floors serve as ceilings..


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