# Advice on Underbidding & underestimating jobs



## HorizonPainting (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm on my 5th day doing an interior, 3 bedrooms (walls, ceilings, & trim), 1 - 2 story hallway (walls, ceiling, & trim). Lower level is all wainscoting (high gloss paint). Anyways, I've been painting a few years, but just started my own business last year. I have mainly stuck to exteriors, but I'm trying to learn and improve my skills so I'm doing whatever jobs I can. This is a part time career for me at the moment until I can gain a little more momentum. Well, I try to stick to the (materials x 4) or 5 but it never seems to end up that way. On this job it's more like x2. The client is a regular, but the job always seems to get more involved the further I get into it. "Just a quick coverup coat here and there" turns into prime & 2 coats. I know I don't have the experience or expertise to get the x5 pricing, but I can't go on like this. I try to price it to where I can make a good profit, but I end up working for peanuts and it just ends up not worth my time when I'm done. I know my inexperience leads to this, I'm just looking for any advice any of those out there have on underbidding & underestimating what size of job it will actually be.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We have all been there, it sucks, but stick it out you will be able to figure out the pricing thing sooner or later. I still fell like I am underbidding but I am comfortable with my numbers andwe make money, some on here are great at the money thing, this is our second year in business and are getting better every bid.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Always track the actual time spent on doing any aspect of your jobs. Reviewing those numbers and comparing them to what you bid will allow you to get a better handle on being accurate. It's a lot of work at first, and will always require adjusting, but you will eventually get more comfortable with the numbers you are coming up with. 

If you get into something that you just aren't sure about how much time might be involved (ex. wallpaper removal), just suggest bidding it at time and materials. My pitch is that it will likely be less than any fixed price I give them - which is totally true.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Get a ledger book and start keeping track of your PRODUCTION RATES. You need to get a handle on this now, so start taking detailed notes for every task you do. This should be an ongoing task for you and the exercise in itself should be an eye opener.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

RH said:


> Always track the actual time spent on doing any aspect of your jobs. Reviewing those numbers and comparing them to what you bid will allow you to get a better handle on being accurate. It's a lot of work at first, and will always require adjusting, but you will eventually get more comfortable with the numbers you are coming up with.
> 
> If you get into something that you just aren't sure about how much time might be involved (ex. wallpaper removal), just suggest bidding it at time and materials. My pitch is that it will likely be less than any fixed price I give them - which is totally true.


What he said, only better. :yes:


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## HorizonPainting (Apr 1, 2011)

I'll have to start that...My time management is way off.. I keep getting into the habit of doing more than 1 room at a time (ADD). I started with 1st coat on 3 bedrooms & the hallway. Then ceilings, cut ins & 2nd coats.. In hindsight, it probably would have been easier doing 1 room at a time top to bottom.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Horizon,

I've been in this trade since '72, and I still keep track of how long tasks take. And we are ALL ADD. 

I'm in the process of changing my estimate approach, so I'm taking more precise notes. There was one day I was jumping from task to task that not only did I use a full sheet of paper, but I think I took more time writing notes than getting any one task done (not recommended)


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

You can try this tool to maybe help with recording your times and chit. It was written by a clown and a goon but it might help.

http://www.painttalk.com/f23/production-rate-recorder-tool-17325/

Pat


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## HorizonPainting (Apr 1, 2011)

I know this client had other bids for this job. I don't want to be rude and ask how much he was quoted for the others, but I'd sure like to know.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

HorizonPainting said:


> I know this client had other bids for this job. I don't want to be rude and ask how much he was quoted for the others, but I'd sure like to know.


It really should not matter what others are biding it at. You just gotta do your own thing and make sure it's working for you.

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HorizonPainting said:


> I know this client had other bids for this job. I don't want to be rude and ask how much he was quoted for the others, but I'd sure like to know.





PatsPainting said:


> It really should not matter what others are biding it at. You just gotta do your own thing and make sure it's working for you.
> 
> Pat


Yep. We are currently doing a job of $3200 that another outfit bid at $1700. Go figure (I personally think he had to be nuttier than squirrel poo).


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

RH said:


> Yep. We are currently doing a job of $3200 that another outfit bid at $1700. Go figure.


I have seen that many times myself. Recently I did a job at $5800 and the other bid was $2500. I can guess what it was. The other guy just did not listen to the customer when doing the estimate. They just assumed cheap wins. 

Pat


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## HorizonPainting (Apr 1, 2011)

RH said:


> Yep. We are currently doing a job of $3200 that another outfit bid at $1700. Go figure (I personally think he had to be nuttier than squirrel poo).


Yea, that's me.. only worse I'm sure. I appreciate the help, next job will definitely be a different process in bidding.


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

Confidence will come with time and experience. Always look to improve.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

HorizonPainting said:


> I'm on my 5th day doing an interior, 3 bedrooms (walls, ceilings, & trim), 1 - 2 story hallway (walls, ceiling, & trim). Lower level is all wainscoting (high gloss paint). Anyways, I've been painting a few years, but just started my own business last year. I have mainly stuck to exteriors, but I'm trying to learn and improve my skills so I'm doing whatever jobs I can. This is a part time career for me at the moment until I can gain a little more momentum. *Well, I try to stick to the (materials x 4) or 5* but it never seems to end up that way. On this job it's more like x2. The client is a regular, but the job always seems to get more involved the further I get into it. "Just a quick coverup coat here and there" turns into prime & 2 coats. I know I don't have the experience or expertise to get the x5 pricing, but I can't go on like this. I try to price it to where I can make a good profit, but I end up working for peanuts and it just ends up not worth my time when I'm done. I know my inexperience leads to this, I'm just looking for any advice any of those out there have on underbidding & underestimating what size of job it will actually be.


Do you mean you add up how much materials you need and then multiply it by 4 or 5 to get the total job cost?

What if you are doing detailed trim or french windows that could take you 2 days to use up one or two gallons?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Do you mean you add up how much materials you need and then multiply it by 4 or 5 to get the total job cost?
> 
> What if you are doing detailed trim or french windows that could take you 2 days to use up one or two gallons?


As a an approach to estimating, multiplying your materials times any factor is a terrible idea. No offense Horizon, I'm sure you're realizing this. As a general rule painting companies (residential anyways) typically spend 10-15% of sales on paint, which would mean materials x 6.5-10. However you can't use those as a factor as some jobs can take two gallons of paint and take 40 hours to complete. If you don't have notes yet on your production rate and you need to bid something, you can also go through the steps of visualizing doing all the operations required - prep, mask, prime, patch, paint etc for that particular item (15 life French door, etc) and extrapolate from there. You can also ask people what their production rates for different things are, look into the PDCA estimating guide, etc. be careful though, as the estimating guides can be awfully optimistic.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

," but I end up working for peanuts "

peanuts and water will keep you alive till the next job


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## Red Truck (Feb 10, 2013)

RH;392663
If you get into something that you just aren't sure about how much time might be involved (ex. wallpaper removal) said:


> Excellent advice. Have a clearly outlined estimate. And if the customer decides to ask for more - address it! Be very polite and say you have time to add to the scope. Time and materials is a great idea - especially for add ons. You don't need to keep pricing things. And guess what - at the end you get compensated for all that extra time without seeming like a jerk. Because they asked - you discusussed - and then delivered.
> 
> I always try to do a few small things for free - its good business - but after a couple hours - remember to charge extra for extra :thumbsup:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I am way confused on the x2 x4 x5 stuff. I have never heard of that. If you cant gauge your own time, how will you be able to gauge spread rates and and material counts? Especially if you go from a one coater to a full reprime and topcoat?


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## schimper (Jan 28, 2013)

Bidding a job, room, exterior, or any other item that needs to be painted varies from job to job. They are never the same. Prep time , primers, scraping, mudding, etc. I simply go to a job estimate, listen to what customer wants, bid it on how long I think how many hours will be involved with my 1 employee and myself. Add materials you think will be used and quote it. Some will have higher profits then others, but you will always make money. Get everything in writing on what your bidding, that way extras are extra.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I am also new at the estimate thing, and the one thing that I quickly figured out was that I was not figuring in the cost of set up and clean up every day. Plus getting all my equipment there and cleaning up after the job is done. Although it is not actually painting, it is working. I have started adding on time after I figure out what I think the actually paint time will be.

Peter


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

HorizonPainting said:


> Well, I try to stick to the (materials x 4) or 5 but it never seems to end up that way. On this job it's more like x2.


I missed this yesterday.

You need to get out of the going rate mentality, as ANY multiplier has nothing to do with how long the job will take, or the cost involved. Create a spreadsheet for each job and map out each task, and how long it will take. Lets take a bedroom for example.

Move furniture- .25 hours
Drop out and mask- .50 hours
Caulk- .25 hours
Patch- 1.25 hours 
2 coat ceiling- 1.25 hours
Etc
Etc

Then total up the room hours, and check your estimated hours with the actual when you are done! You should be estimating like this on EVERY job, I do, and most of the contractors here do.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I missed this yesterday.
> 
> You need to get out if the going rate mentality, as ANY multiplier has nothing to do with how long the job will take, or the cost involved. Create a spreadsheet for each job and map out each task, and how long it will take. Lets take a bedroom for example.
> 
> ...



So... ho much should I charge for the room you are describing Paul?:jester:


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> So... ho much should I charge for the room you are describing Paul?:jester:


****head banging on desk****


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> ****head banging on desk****


Don't knock out the last remaining hairs on your head.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> Don't knock out the last remaining hairs on your head.


LOL. Good laugh to start my day out with. :notworthy:


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

What all the guys said. Read the sticky at the top .. so you want to be..

Simple meathod- make a graph of each and every step of the project- give each an est of time-material- 
Your time $ needs to be worked out including over head costs, and incidental time ( set up , clean up, getting materials, bidding etc. ) not just with brush in hand.
Then profit( which is above what you would call your "wage") is what grows your company.

Being a businessman is a different job that being a painter. You need to be good at both.


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## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

The main problem we all have is that painters and homeowners always underestimate the time, cost and value of a good paint job. There is always another painter who can do it for less. Value your time, do the best work you can and charge a good wage. Posts like this help spread the word about our worth and the effort involved to do a good paint job.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Move furniture- .25 hours
> Drop out and mask- .50 hours
> Caulk- .25 hours
> Patch- 1.25 hours
> ...


Then when you get home, and the next morning sitting on the toilet... you start questioning yourself.."let's see, can I do that in 1.5 hours, and that in .75?"

So you go through each task again while timing it in your head.

Soon enough, you've already painted it, cleaned up, and driven home... all in your head...for free!


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Damon T said:


> As a an approach to estimating, multiplying your materials times any factor is a terrible idea.


I totally agree.
If it's not the worst idea I've ever heard, it's certainly in the top 3.
(dart board would be #1)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I always thought that estimating materials at 20% of job cost [aka materials x 5] worked as far as setting a bench mark, but I would never rely on it to be an accurate assessment for a final estimate of the job. There are too many variables. 

The best advice has always been to do the work it takes to know your numbers. I still don't really know them after 20 + years of painting, and that's why I often find myself under estimating a project. I find I over estimate my abilities too. Especially the older I get.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I find I over estimate my abilities too. Especially the older I get.


I've been figuring old-age-slow-down into my estimates for awhile now


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

when I was starting out, I went to a local library and perused the Means Estimating Guide.

It helped, but I soon learned it was not my bible.

as you start out, it is not a bad idea to *USE* someone else's numbers as a reference, but be sure you actively and immediately start your own database.

And then once you have a handle on your production rates, you next have to figure out your hourly rate to cover ALL your costs plus make a little to buy that can of tuna fish for supper.

And I don't think there is one person here who ever stops tweaking all those formulas.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I've been figuring old-age-slow-down into my estimates for awhile now


My problem is I keep feeling guilty about doing that, so I rationalize it by calling it "they are buying experience"


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I've been figuring old-age-slow-down into my estimates for awhile now


That part is called your "retirement plan".


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I've painted this house 3 times.
Last year it took a full day longer than it did the first time (in my early 20's).
And I doubt it was because of my extra attention to detail.

Old-Age-Slow-Down is real...remember it during your bids. (like I didn't)


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Pete the Painter said:


> I am also new at the estimate thing, and the one thing that I quickly figured out was that I was not figuring in the cost of set up and clean up every day. Plus getting all my equipment there and cleaning up after the job is done. Although it is not actually painting, it is working. I have started adding on time after I figure out what I think the actually paint time will be.
> 
> Peter


That's a great point. The intangibles like that can easily add 20% time to a job. On exterior restoration jobs setup and cleanup is a huge factor.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

My first boss, while being a horrible teacher, taught me something about estimating. He said figure out how long it will take and what you want to make per hour and then double it. 

I thought he was crazy. I then did a few jobs and realized the time I estimated was way off. I was way too optimistic, and forgot a bunch of stuff like set up and clean up, unforeseeable things like something needed a prime coat or second coat when I figured one would be good.

Until you have a solid idea of how long things will take, you could either double your estimated time, work for time and materials, or continue to do jobs where you underestimate and make hardly nothing.

After more than a decade of doing this, I still miscalculate my times once in awhile. What's nice is I bid higher and add a buffer so if this happens it doesn't really hurt as much as it used to. 

When things go faster than I expected, I don't feel guilty either. I figure my experience and expertise is worth something too.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

This is how I see it. You can either be cheap and let your work reflect that, or do things right and charge according.

Maybe you should just charge hourly, and let them decide how expensive they want their paint job to be.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> Then when you get home, and the next morning sitting on the toilet... you start questioning yourself.."let's see, can I do that in 1.5 hours, and that in .75?"
> 
> So you go through each task again while timing it in your head.
> 
> Soon enough, you've already painted it, cleaned up, and driven home... all in your head...for free!


Exactly where I'm sitting while I read this.....I was just going over my own estimates on the throne...


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> This is how I see it. You can either be cheap and let your work reflect that, or do things right and charge according.
> 
> Maybe you should just charge hourly, and let them decide how expensive they want their paint job to be.


Yup and there"s always going to be somebody working cheaper!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I've painted this house 3 times.
> Last year it took a full day longer than it did the first time (in my early 20's).
> And I doubt it was because of my extra attention to detail.
> 
> OASD is real...remember it during your bids. (like I didn't)


Is that a Toyota Tacoma Steve? No ladder rack? :blink:


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

HorizonPainting said:


> I'm on my 5th day doing an interior, 3 bedrooms (walls, ceilings, & trim), 1 - 2 story hallway (walls, ceiling, & trim). Lower level is all wainscoting (high gloss paint). Anyways, I've been painting a few years, but just started my own business last year. I have mainly stuck to exteriors, but I'm trying to learn and improve my skills so I'm doing whatever jobs I can. This is a part time career for me at the moment until I can gain a little more momentum. Well, I try to stick to the (materials x 4) or 5 but it never seems to end up that way. On this job it's more like x2. The client is a regular, but the job always seems to get more involved the further I get into it. "Just a quick coverup coat here and there" turns into prime & 2 coats. I know I don't have the experience or expertise to get the x5 pricing, but I can't go on like this. I try to price it to where I can make a good profit, but I end up working for peanuts and it just ends up not worth my time when I'm done. I know my inexperience leads to this, I'm just looking for any advice any of those out there have on underbidding & underestimating what size of job it will actually be.


There is a ton of information here as well as online for estimating. A very simple read but well worth it is Paint Contractors Manual by David Matis and Jobe Toole search craftsman books. The best book if you can find it that covers almost every single thing we do is Estimating Painting Costs by Dan Gleason it's a older old school book but to me is the best for any painter starting out or 30 yrs down the road. I attached a photo of front cover and a sample sheet he used to track his rates. Search goggle maybe you can find one well worth the price of admission.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Horizon, this is how I do my take off. But first, I want to give credit to John Peek out of San Diego for giving this to me. It's helped me over the years to keep organized during the walk through. 

I'll total up hours for each and every task to paint the room, then count my gallons. I really think you need a consistent and organized system to estimate the TIME for the job. Once you have than on track, you can start to figure out what you need to charge per hour. But that's a topic for another time.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

what I love is that the successful trades people on this forum ALL follow the same practice. Different methods, same results.

When I first started taking my notes, I thought I was one of the few that did, NO one I knew was doing it 

I wonder if THEY are still in business :whistling2:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> I've painted this house 3 times.
> Last year it took a full day longer than it did the first time (in my early 20's).
> And I doubt it was because of my extra attention to detail.
> 
> OASD is real...remember it during your bids. (like I didn't)


 
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense.:blink:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

You need to look beyond the "horizon".:whistling2:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Exactly where I'm sitting while I read this.....I was just going over my own estimates on the throne...


Nice.:thumbsup:I hope all of us do at least some of our business on the toilet.



ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Is that a Toyota Tacoma Steve? No ladder rack? :blink:


 F150 (my 3rd). Not when the shell's on.
You got a Tacoma, Rent?



Schmidt & Co. said:


> Horizon, this is how I do my take off.


Mine looks like that too, Schmidt, only more scribbly. (I don't want anyone to be able to read it but me.)



chrisn said:


> Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense.:blink:


May not be political, but close enough.
I've warned you before, chrisn...as soon as I find my ban-button, you're out of here.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> I've been figuring old-age-slow-down into my estimates for awhile now


 Dang, that's a factor I haven't considered. I may be in denial!


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## HorizonPainting (Apr 1, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> This is how I see it. You can either be cheap and let your work reflect that, or do things right and charge according.
> 
> Maybe you should just charge hourly, and let them decide how expensive they want their paint job to be.


Around here, the client sometimes sees this as you wanting to 'milk' the job as long as you can. I quote a price, sometimes it takes longer, sometimes shorter (usually not), but they know what the total will be beforehand.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Horizon, this is how I do my take off. But first, I want to give credit to John Peek out of San Diego for giving this to me. It's helped me over the years to keep organized during the walk through.
> 
> I'll total up hours for each and every task to paint the room, then count my gallons. I really think you need a consistent and organized system to estimate the TIME for the job. Once you have than on track, you can start to figure out what you need to charge per hour. But that's a topic for another time.


not a bad deal... i just write random stuff down as im doing my walk thru... never taken the time to design something so use ful.....


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I love the title of this thread. I have lots of experience underbidding and underestimating jobs. It looked like the OP wanted advice on how to do that by the title. Man I could write a book on jobs I've underbid. Actually that could be fun. We could each write a chapter on a job we totally underbid and all the adventures that came with that job. I think they're commonly referred to as "jobs from hell".


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Nice.:thumbsup:I hope all of us do at least some of our business on the toilet.
> 
> F150 (my 3rd). Not when the shell's on.
> You got a Tacoma, Rent?
> ...


 
OASD

so, what is it?:blink:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Could one of the mods please help me?

I went to my control panel and typed in [chrisn delete/ban] and then I tried [chrisn abracadabra ban] but it doesn't seem to be working.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisn said:


> OASD[/QUOTE]old age slow down


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> OASD
> 
> so, what is it?:blink:





Steve Richards said:


> Could one of the mods please help me?
> 
> I went to my control panel and typed in [chrisn delete/ban] and then I tried [chrisn abracadabra ban] but it doesn't seem to be working.


if you boys can't play nice, we will have to take your shovels and buckets away and you;ll have to learn how to share the sand box 

 :whistling2: :jester:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Could one of the mods please help me?
> 
> I went to my control panel and typed in [chrisn delete/ban] and then I tried [chrisn abracadabra ban] but it doesn't seem to be working.


You have to rub the lamp. You know like AJ was rubbing his lamp in that video to PT....:whistling2:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> There is a ton of information here as well as online for estimating. A very simple read but well worth it is Paint Contractors Manual by David Matis and Jobe Toole search craftsman books. The best book if you can find it that covers almost every single thing we do is Estimating Painting Costs by Dan Gleason it's a older old school book but to me is the best for any painter starting out or 30 yrs down the road. I attached a photo of front cover and a sample sheet he used to track his rates. Search goggle maybe you can find one well worth the price of admission.


Just ordered, thanks.


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

funny an old timer told me to price jobs labor and materials X 2 that way you get your profit and over head.


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## justadude (Feb 16, 2012)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Horizon, this is how I do my take off. But first, I want to give credit to John Peek out of San Diego for giving this to me. It's helped me over the years to keep organized during the walk through.
> 
> I'll total up hours for each and every task to paint the room, then count my gallons. I really think you need a consistent and organized system to estimate the TIME for the job. Once you have than on track, you can start to figure out what you need to charge per hour. But that's a topic for another time.


Do you share this with the customer?


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## justadude (Feb 16, 2012)

Yep, that is my experience.



HorizonPainting said:


> Around here, the client sometimes sees this as you wanting to 'milk' the job as long as you can. I quote a price, sometimes it takes longer, sometimes shorter (usually not), but they know what the total will be beforehand.


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## justadude (Feb 16, 2012)

I was told, If you are winning most of your bids, you are bidding too low!


Damon T said:


> I love the title of this thread. I have lots of experience underbidding and underestimating jobs. It looked like the OP wanted advice on how to do that by the title. Man I could write a book on jobs I've underbid. Actually that could be fun. We could each write a chapter on a job we totally underbid and all the adventures that came with that job. I think they're commonly referred to as "jobs from hell".


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## justadude (Feb 16, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> Just ordered, thanks.


Me too!
:thumbsup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

justadude said:


> I was told, If you are winning most of your bids, you are bidding too low!


This bit o' wisdom comes up periodically on PT and I usually end up playing the contrarian. If you're constantly bidding against other painting companies, I think it's probably valid.

The approach that we've taken for some time is to pre-qualify our leads very thoroughly so we don't waste time and effort with tire-kickers/price-shoppers. We narrow down the leads to those potential clients who have decided that, based on referrals, we're the company that they want to do their painting. Typically, we have several meetings, some in person and some by phone, to negotiate a contract. I haven't calculated our closing rate in a while, but it's on the order of 95%. Whenever I mention that on PT, it brings out a flurry of comments that we're bidding too low. Trust me, we're not.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> F150 (my 3rd). Not when the shell's on.
> You got a Tacoma, Rent?


No Steve. I cannot own a Toyota. I'm a Ford guy


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Add up your hours for each task,but dont beat it down too tight.Round off to make it full days..8,16,24,etc.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No Steve. I cannot own a Toyota. I'm a Ford guy


 Your a-ford-able?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

My dad would say " if you bite off more than you can chew.... Chew harder"
And try to remember it on the next one


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No Steve. I cannot own a Toyota. I'm a Ford guy


I've never owned a truck that wasn't a Ford.

Why would I?

Why would anyone?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Whenever I see someone driving a new truck that isn't a Ford, I figure they must have won it on a game show.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Whenever I see someone driving a new truck that isn't a Ford, I figure they must have won it on a game show.


More like... :whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

One of the longest days that I've ever spent painting was one where I was painting door frames on a NC job while the house was filled with floor guys. Eight full hours of "the Ford-Chevy Debate". By noon, I was sorry that I hadn't brought a radio...by 5, I was ready to hang myself in a closet. 

So far, our work rigs have included Toyota, Ford, Chevy, and International. That last one was a '67 IH Travelall that did the job for 10+ years, what a beast.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

justadude said:


> Do you share this with the customer?


Sorry, just saw your post.

No I don't. Its just my hourly take-off and really would't clearly say much to the home owner as to whats actually included in the job. I have a separate proposal explaining exactly what we are doing that I submit. Its two pages and and has the work standard, warrantee, how many coats, whats excluded etc.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> I've never owned a truck that wasn't a Ford.
> 
> Why would I?
> 
> Why would anyone?


I know right, Here are my two babies !


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Gough said:


> One of the longest days that I've ever spent painting was one where I was painting door frames on a NC job while the house was filled with floor guys. Eight full hours of "the Ford-Chevy Debate". By noon, I was sorry that I hadn't brought a radio...by 5, I was ready to hang myself in a closet.
> 
> So far, our work rigs have included Toyota, Ford, Chevy, and International. That last one was a '67 IH Travelall that did the job for 10+ years, what a beast.


One time I was working for a veteran guy that was pow. He would come out and talk for a bit. Some day a guy was going to do some other service and he parked a toyota truck on his drive way. Apparently the HO was tortured really bad, so he came out and told him flat out to park his piece of **** toyota around the corner.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> Typically, we have several meetings, some in person and some by phone, to negotiate a contract.


Gough,

This (in red) caught my eye. Can you elaborate on that.What's the process ?

(I assume it's not like at a Flea Market, or a Marrakesh souk.)


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Gough,
> 
> This (in red) caught my eye. Can you elaborate on that.What's the process ?
> 
> (I assume it's not like at a Flea Market, or a Marrakesh souk.)


We don't really have a formal process, but it usually amounts to a fair bit of give and take with budgets, schedules, and scope of work. Often, the clients end up paring down the immediate S.O.W. once we start to talk numbers and scheduling issues. It's fairly common that we come up with a long-term plan and set priorities: these items this year, those next year, etc.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> We don't really have a formal process, but it usually amounts to a fair bit of give and take with budgets, schedules, and scope of work. Often, the clients end up paring down the immediate S.O.W. once we start to talk numbers and scheduling issues. It's fairly common that we come up with a long-term plan and set priorities: these items this year, those next year, etc.


Thanks,

so if I may, you do not negotiate your price so much as the scope of the work ?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Thanks,
> 
> so if I may, you do not negotiate your price so much as the scope of the work ?


Scope of work and schedule, mainly.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

RH said:


> More like... :whistling2:


Since I bought my Ford F150 8 months ago I have wanted to flush it down the toilet for the last 6 months . Fix one thing some thing else goes, this is not "First on race day" it is "Found on road dead" or "Fixed And Repaired Daily". I love throwing $500 a month out the window plus repairs.


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## South-FL-Painter (Jan 17, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> Since I bought my Ford F150 8 months ago I have wanted to flush it down the toilet for the last 6 months . Fix one thing some thing else goes, this is not "First on race day" it is "Found on road dead" or "Fixed And Repaired Daily". I love throwing $500 a month out the window plus repairs.


What year and model f150 you have? 

I have 09 STX and its a excellent truck.

And by the way its not "fixed and repaired daily" but "Fix Or Repair Daily" otherwise it would not be Ford it would be Fard  maybe thats what you bought?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Since I bought my Ford F150 8 months ago I have wanted to flush it down the toilet for the last 6 months . Fix one thing some thing else goes, this is not "First on race day" it is "Found on road dead" or "Fixed And Repaired Daily". I love throwing $500 a month out the window plus repairs.


Dave, was it new? or used?

Not to defend (or condemn) Fords, but I come from a Ford Family. My father bought nothing BUT Fords. (even a Pinto). He had pretty good luck (except the Pinto).

I bought a Ranger in '83, new. It was a POS. Nice enough idea, but the engine was bad. 

I guess if I were to judge them honestly, I'd have to give them a "I" for Inconsistent


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> Dave, was it new? or used?
> 
> Not to defend (or condemn) Fords, but I come from a Ford Family. My father bought nothing BUT Fords. (even a Pinto). He had pretty good luck (except the Pinto).
> 
> ...


Bill, it was a used one, 2005 F150. I like the way Fords drive and look but like you said inconsistent. My van which is a Ford E250 has 2 blown head gaskets runs better than the F150, but still a POS. 
I am thinking a horse and buggy next.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Sharp_Painting said:


> Fard  maybe thats what you bought?


Damn I got one of those Chineese rip offs. I thought they spelled Ford wrong at the dealership.
2005 F150 5.4 that eats coil packs like they are going out of style.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Bill, it was a used one, 2005 F150. I like the way Fords drive and look but like you said inconsistent. My van which is a Ford E250 has 2 blown head gaskets runs better than the F150, but still a POS.
> I am thinking a horse and buggy next.


See, and I've had awesome luck with the three e-250s I've had. Never a problem other than normal wear and tear.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> See, and I've had awesome luck with the three e-250s I've had. Never a problem other than normal wear and tear.


Thats what I am going after next a F250, once I fix this again I am selling it to one dealership and going to another to buy the 250, I need about $1,500 in repairs first.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Bill, it was a used one, 2005 F150. I like the way Fords drive and look but like you said inconsistent. My van which is a Ford E250 has 2 blown head gaskets runs better than the F150, but still a POS.
> I am thinking a horse and buggy next.


Dave,

I will admit to a love/hate relationship with Fords. I kinda hope (for the sake of my father's memory) that your problem was based on it being used. 

But then again, I stopped buying used in 1980.


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## South-FL-Painter (Jan 17, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> Damn I got one of those Chineese rip offs. I thought they spelled Ford wrong at the dealership.
> 2005 F150 5.4 that eats coil packs like they are going out of style.


Sorry to hear about your truck,maybe its just a "monday" truck.

Never had trouble with fords.Any trucks I will buy in future is fords.

I am ford guy all the way.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> Dave,
> 
> I will admit to a love/hate relationship with Fords. I kinda hope (for the sake of my father's memory) that your problem was based on it being used.
> 
> But then again, I stopped buying used in 1980.


Bill, according to the Ford dealerships there is a problem with the sparkplug wells being to deep and holding water/moisture in as soon as it splashes up on the coil packs it starts to kill them, the local Ford dealers say they fix 20-30 a month no recall in sight.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Sharp_Painting said:


> Sorry to hear about your truck,maybe its just a "monday" truck.
> 
> Never had trouble with fords.Any trucks I will buy in future is fords.
> 
> I am ford guy all the way.


I want my little Datsan 280Z back, granted can't haul paint but that car sure did haul some a$$, bored and stroked, wrist flick shift kit, it was a corvette eater. Other wise I do prefer Fords over GM and Dodge.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> I want my little Datsan 280Z back, granted can't haul paint but that car sure did haul some a$$, bored and stroked, wrist flick shift kit, it was a corvette eater. Other wise I do prefer Fords over GM and Dodge.


and want my 510 wagon back

DATSUN RULES :thumbup: :thumbsup: :thumbup:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

did someone underbid a ford dealership cause this is way off topic :zorro:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

ewingpainting.net said:


> did someone underbid a ford dealership cause this is way off topic :zorro:


The Chinese that built my truck.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

daArch said:


> and want my 510 wagon back
> 
> DATSUN RULES :thumbup: :thumbsup: :thumbup:


Those 510 were awesome cars.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> did someone underbid a ford dealership cause this is way off topic :zorro:


One of the problems with going Ford around here is the local dealers. They come and go like summer painters. The most recent one was just indicted because he was taking trade ins and NOT paying off the loans on them, as he was required to do by law.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Since I bought my Ford F150 8 months ago I have wanted to flush it down the toilet for the last 6 months . Fix one thing some thing else goes, this is not "First on race day" it is "Found on road dead" or "Fixed And Repaired Daily". I love throwing $500 a month out the window plus repairs.


CD is it the Ecoboost engine, the 5.0 or other? What type of problems have you had?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> I want my little Datsan 280Z back, granted can't haul paint but that car sure did haul some a$$, bored and stroked, wrist flick shift kit, it was a corvette eater. Other wise I do prefer Fords over GM and Dodge.


When I graduated from high school my folks got me a sweet 280Z 2+2. Man that thing was nice! Lost my license not long after....what were they thinking!?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> One of the problems with going Ford around here is the local dealers. They come and go like summer painters. The most recent one was just indicted because he was taking trade ins and NOT paying off the loans on them, as he was required to do by law.


You've got that giant dealership that people come from states away near you don't you? Can't remember the name, I wanna say Dwayne or something?


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## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

HorizonPainting said:


> I know this client had other bids for this job. I don't want to be rude and ask how much he was quoted for the others, but I'd sure like to know.


No harm in asking.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Westview said:


> No harm in asking.


 
I thought we were talking cars? Well, not me, I don't really give a sh*t


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Damon T said:


> CD is it the Ecoboost engine, the 5.0 or other? What type of problems have you had?


It has the 5.4,coil packs, crank position sensor, spark plugs that wont come out (these are those 100k mile plugs) now added to the list is wheel bearings and the ABS jamming up (I hit the brakes and the bangs and pulses and no stopping, so far I have been lucky and not hit any one), MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure) fuel pump.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Damon T said:


> When I graduated from high school my folks got me a sweet 280Z 2+2. Man that thing was nice! Lost my license not long after....what were they thinking!?


I lost me license 4 times in that Z, but it was worth it at that young and dumb age.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> It has the 5.4,coil packs, crank position sensor, spark plugs that wont come out (these are those 100k mile plugs) now added to the list is wheel bearings and the ABS jamming up (I hit the brakes and the bangs and pulses and no stopping, so far I have been lucky and not hit any one), MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure) fuel pump.


The spark plugs can only be replace at the dealership. Shop around, I did mine last year and the dealership by my home wanted $350 to replace them and $90 for every one that breaks. I called the dealership across town where I was working and the charged me $198 total and they had a fee of $35 for every broken one.

Seeing your posts about your Ford truck reminds me of Captain Sheetrock and his Graco Sprayer.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> The spark plugs can only be replace at the dealership. Shop around, I did mine last year and the dealership by my home wanted $350 to replace them and $90 for every one that breaks. I called the dealership across town where I was working and the charged me $198 total and they had a fee of $35 for every broken one.
> 
> Seeing your posts about your Ford truck reminds me of Captain Sheetrock and his Graco Sprayer.


You went with the lowballer?!?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> You went with the lowballer?!?


No. I went with the Ford dealership that was going to do the same labor and use the same parts. They both are Ford dealerships. Would you've gone with the more expensive one? Why?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No. I went with the Ford dealership that was going to do the same labor and use the same parts. They both are Ford dealerships. Would you've gone with the more expensive one? Why?


Same reason people go with a more expensive painter?:blink:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Same reason people go with a more expensive painter?:blink:


I'm gonna have to get the BS card out. if both are gonna do the same service, same parts, There is no way in hell that I'm gonna go with the one is charging almost double.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm gonna have to get the BS card out. if both are gonna do the same service, same parts, There is no way in hell that I'm gonna go with the one is charging almost double.


How do you know if the service quality is the same with the lower priced one?

I would have my mechanic girlfriend do the work for me.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Seeing your posts about your Ford truck reminds me of Captain Sheetrock and his Graco Sprayer.



Man, there is a blast from the past. Imagine if someone dropped a Sev reference.....


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> How do you know if the service quality is the same with the lower priced one?
> 
> I would have my mechanic girlfriend do the work for me.


Just so you know only dealerships replace spark plugs on Ford 150's 04 and up.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Just so you know only dealerships replace spark plugs on Ford 150's 04 and up.


Spark plugs are pretty technical...


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Spark plugs are pretty technical...


:thumbsup: Your eyes are turning brown TJ.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Sometimes I look at some of these "won't die" threads and think, where else can they go..
Then you guys amaze me.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> The spark plugs can only be replace at the dealership. Shop around, I did mine last year and the dealership by my home wanted $350 to replace them and $90 for every one that breaks. I called the dealership across town where I was working and the charged me $198 total and they had a fee of $35 for every broken one.
> 
> Seeing your posts about your Ford truck reminds me of Captain Sheetrock and his Graco Sprayer.


I have a list that resembles the bible for all the problems I have had with my Chevy truck. 

I think a few on here who are on other internet lillypads know what I am talkin bout.

Last year.. OH CRAP! LMAO Here since we are talking about it I will just show you 

I did some work on the road this past late 12'. I went rolling through a 2 horse town and my throttle body cable decided to give up ghost on me.

I had to be back in KC because I had a final that night. I called my instructor and told him the news. He told me that since the class was a late start class I had to be there because he had to turn the grades in the next morning (the way colleges do their grading).. so if I missed it I was fooked.

I walked into town and their only parts store had closed a couple years earlier  double fooked. Since it was a dealer only part.. fooked on that too.. 

What does a person do in a situation like this? 

This is what I did:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Will be buying a (new to me) white Ford pickup truck as soon as I can this year. This chevy truck has been nothing but a thorn in this Ford guy's side since I got it.

Oh and my hand had serious problems after holding tension and keeping a speed for 98miles till I pulled into the college and took my test. I was 1hr late getting in, but tore a hole in that test with a 98%!  dats how we does it 

Was like riding a metal horse home.. Heeeya!


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## jonathanthepainter (Jul 5, 2011)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Horizon, this is how I do my take off. But first, I want to give credit to John Peek out of San Diego for giving this to me. It's helped me over the years to keep organized during the walk through.
> 
> I'll total up hours for each and every task to paint the room, then count my gallons. I really think you need a consistent and organized system to estimate the TIME for the job. Once you have than on track, you can start to figure out what you need to charge per hour. But that's a topic for another time.


 
Paul, would you post a copy of that document on the forms thread? Thanks Jonathan


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

nEighter said:


> Will be buying a (new to me) white Ford pickup truck as soon as I can this year. This chevy truck has been nothing but a thorn in this Ford guy's side since I got it.
> 
> Oh and my hand had serious problems after holding tension and keeping a speed for 98miles till I pulled into the college and took my test. I was 1hr late getting in, but tore a hole in that test with a 98%!  dats how we does it
> 
> Was like riding a metal horse home.. Heeeya!


So what did you miss?:whistling2:


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

HorizonPainting said:


> I'll have to start that...My time management is way off.. I keep getting into the habit of doing more than 1 room at a time (ADD). I started with 1st coat on 3 bedrooms & the hallway. Then ceilings, cut ins & 2nd coats.. In hindsight, it probably would have been easier doing 1 room at a time top to bottom.


 You cut and roll with the paint you are in. I wrap the pan or bucket whatever in plastic or with a lid while I'm cutting in the second coat then I roll the second. This eliminates down time with clean up. Wrap the roller up tight in a plastic bag and you can use it the next day. I usually work alone so by the time I finish rolling the first coat i might take a few minutes to eat and then start cutting in again where I start. Thats the great thing about latex. It dries in 30 minutes. I had to put 4 coats on a powder room one time in like 6 hrs.lmao. Sometimes I have two or three wall colors out and a pail of trim paint. I just put a wet rag over it. The only time I clean out the brushes is at the end of the day or if they get gunky. Even if i do most of a house interior, I drop out the whole place and do all the ceilings at once. By the time your done the first coat you can start the second. That's where the moneys at in this business. Imo the money is all in the second coat. It goes on faster, everythying is already out and you can put it up an hour after you rolled on the first coat.


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