# Franchises



## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Is there a difference b/w a painting franchise and a food franchise eg McD? (well, besides their products/services). Thoughts?


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

Uh-oh. Can is now opened...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

There are a gazillion varieties of the franchice model.

Some are honest and honorable where they have strict guidlines on procedures and quality and then there are others where the fat cats sit in their ivory towers and sell/rent the name-use to poor unsuspecting college kids with pie-in-the-sky claims and then rip the poor kids off of all their earnings. 

Someone help me here. If I recall there was a big broo-ha-ha about some PDCA article that described the rip-off college/student/certified franchise painting companies. It went into explicit details how the poor kids were suckered. The particular franchises that were name attempted to sue, but lost.

Can anyone point to the articles I'm talking about?


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

This here is a personal story of one such kid. Pretty long....I actually bookmarked it a few years back.

*My experience with College Pro Painters, and other life-changing experiences of the last two years*


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

If we want to talk about franchises, let's do it here, not an intro thread.
Bill is the story you were thinking about?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> He could of been just looking to get his name out and build some SEO, or he could of just not gotten back to PT yet, and will in fact turn out to be a contributing member.
> I hope it is the latter as I always like to learn what i can about franchises.
> 
> I know you guys think you smell blood but take it easy. I would hate to see him come back to his thread and have it be all murky with this or that and be turned off from contributing to PT.


You're right Sean, but I do think it fair to give full disclosure about my prejudices and experiences. I told Fresh at the beginning what I thought about franchises and he did not run and hide. He has gained my respect for being honest.

If a franchise owner is going to be a professional and "do it right" this is a good place to come to understand what he needs to do to UNdo that crap that has been done by others. 

Hey, maybe we can contribute to the rebirth of franchises :thumbsup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Good thinking Chris. :thumbup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I try to learn what I can about the franchises, more out of morbid curiosity than anything. With all the horror stories I have heard i like to see if I can add balance by finding some positives.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

RCP said:


> If we want to talk about franchises, let's do it here, not an intro thread.
> Bill is the story you were thinking about?


that's them !!!

OK, I'll drop back a few yards now. 

It's just that the franchises that foster hackdom really burn my butt. They have done more harm than any laid-off office worker picking up a brush and calling himself a painter.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

My criticism isnt so much born out of concern for consumer experiences with franchises. Its more disbelief in what some of the franchise hq's are able to sell to the franchisees.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> My criticism isnt so much born out of concern for consumer experiences with franchises. Its more disbelief in what some of the franchise hq's are able to sell to the franchisees.


There's that aspect too. 

You just added another log to my fire !! I'm ablaze now


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This looks like my kind of thread. Can ya'll break it down for me?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> There's that aspect too.
> 
> You just added another log to my fire !! I'm ablaze now


*Fresh Coat Painters*













*Business Type:* Franchise
*Liquid Capital Required:* $27,900
*Total Investment:* $36,400 - $58,900

*Financing Assistance:* Available
*Training and Support:* Available
*Franchise Fee:* $27,900
For those interested in franchise opportunities, this information came from a really good site called franchisegator.com. They have helpful info on other great franchising opportunities as well, which could help you and your family to finally achieve the lifestyle you have always wanted through low cost, high margin home improvement service businesses.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I moved some of the posts, Bill and Sean, if you see others I missed, feel free to move.

LOL, look at the "thread" Yaros "started"!


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Certa:

_*Initial Investment:*_

Initial Franchise Fee $40,000 
Advertising $40,000 
Miscellaneous Openings Costs $3,000 
Equipment $6,000 
Office Equipment $500 
Vehicle $2,500
Computer System and Proprietary Software $9,500 
Travel and Living Expenses while Training $3,000
Insurance $5,000 
Additional Funds (3-6 months of operation) $9,500
*Total $129,000*

_*Ongoing Fees:*_

Royalties: 5% of Gross Sales 
Additional Training: $100 to $300 per day 
Advertising Fees and Expenses: Up to 10% of Gross Sales during your first year of operation and after that 6% of Gross Sales 
General Advertising Fund 3% of Gross Sales 
Local Advertising Cooperative Fees As voted by the individual cooperative franchisees 
Assignment/ Sale 10% of the sale price of the franchised business 
Renewal 10% of then current franchise fee; reasonable attorneys' fees Annual Conference $1,500 to $3,000 
Software Upgrade Fee Up to 0.25% of Gross Sales. 
Late Payment Penalty 1.5% or the maximum rate allowed by law, whichever is less 
Commercial Services Fee $6,000


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That fresh coat one looks like a bargain franchise. I can see why neps has been buying up territories along the east coast.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow, you can operate a certa for 3-6 months with just $9500 and you only need a $2500 vehicle.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That fresh coat one looks like a bargain franchise. I can see why neps has been buying up territories along the east coast.


I did that to chart all the customer data. I love digging into that stuff.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't see "Ethic's Training" in either of those outlines.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Perfect thread to welcome Cabin Fever :whistling2:


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

I'd like to attend a 3,000 conference. They better have damn good food.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I don't see "Ethic's Training" in either of those outlines.


that's because the professor, Bernie Madoff is on sabatical


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## Paint Works (Aug 1, 2007)

Not that I really have a opinion one way or the other, but I have no problem with a franchise. Franchise People are not looking to be self employed, they are looking to be business owners. I think sometimes the self employed almost take offense that somebody not as skilled as them dare try and own a business in their industry. I'll tell you, one of the most successfull painting companies in my area is owned and operated by a guy who had no idea how to paint when he startdd his company. I like hearing evryones input. IF I hear something I like from someone Ill use it, If dont Like what I hear I dont use It. There are lots of ways to succeed in doing this. Not all will agree on which way is the right way for them.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> I don't see "Ethic's Training" in either of those outlines.


It's buried in here.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> I moved some of the posts, Bill and Sean, if you see others I missed, feel free to move.
> 
> LOL, look at the "thread" Yaros "started"!


Yep his post looks like a thread starter too. 

Nice thread Y.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

I forfeit all credit to Chris for being such an astute moderator


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Dam - y'all petered out pretty quickly. I had no intentions of posting on this thread (for obvious reasons) but was looking forward to the entertaining posts.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> entertaining posts.


This is the only reason why we keep you around.:jester:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> This is the only reason why we keep you around.:jester:


The only reason? I thought it was because of my brilliant insight and my technical "know how" on painting techniques. :thumbup:


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## michfan (Jul 6, 2008)

Does anyone on here have any positives about franchises (besides fresh)?

I know that the fast food chains are successful because of organization and systems. I know some of those principles could apply to a small painting biz.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

y.painting said:


> Is there a difference b/w a painting franchise and a food franchise eg McD? (well, besides their products/services). Thoughts?


I actually addressed this exact comparison regarding my opinion of the difference between fast food franchises and professional trade franchises in a previous thread.

My take on the issue was this:



Last Craftsman said:


> The reason why the franchise model IS fair to the consumer in a restaurant capacity for example, is because it doesn't take 30 years for someone to learn how to make a sandwich.
> 
> When someone pays 8 dollars for a sandwich, there will be no appreciable difference between the sandwich prepared by an employee who has been making sandwiches for one month, or the employee who has been making sandwiches for 30 years.
> 
> ...


That was an excerpt from a thread I posted fairly extensively on the issue of franchises, and I also listed some VERY horrific links to people's experience with franchises.

Here is a link to the thread, which has some good reading, and is only one page long:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/multilevel-marketing-painting-outfits-franchises-6233/


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

great thread. I am floored at that guy's story, and then tone of this thread is cool and level headed and .. It was weird reading it.. eveyone is mellow and all.  Awesome read, and now I almost feel bad for bashing these companies.. almost


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

80% of new business will fail within 5 years. Then another 80% of those remaining will fail in the next five years. Franchises have a high success rate because they incorporate proven business models, including systems. 

Like them or not, franchisee's experience greater success than those who try it on thier own.


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

Franchises are like "revolving doors" in Dayton, Ohio.
....Theres a sucker born everyday..

Never herd of FC...but, CP has changed hands a few times, and there reputation sucks.

I'll take my $129,000.... and buy a boom truck, truck, deposit on some property,advertising, and a night in the city......Wait a minute, "I already did that" 20 years ago.

I'm going to take a pain pill ,and rest.... I've been up for 30 minutes....ra....ra


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

Here's a gem that just opened in my market.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

btw that comment above was to the local franchise painters. I don't see how they do it if they have to pay/repay all that money and still live. This reminds me of the Home Creepo painting scheme. It would have played out really similar to the college pro scheme that poor guy wrote about.


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## j0tun (Jan 10, 2009)

One Day Painting

This is a company in my area looking to franchise. I used to work for him, under his other painting company. I don't believe he has sold any franchises as of yet, but it is relatively new. What do you think about the 'one day' approach? He essentially piles a ton of guys onto the job to complete it in one day. It is an extremely stressful work environment, but homeowners love the concept because, obviously, the job is done so quickly. I do believe he charges quite a lot, certainly above average.

Also, read about the 'One Day Vacation"... basically, if the job will take more than one day to complete, they send you for a night on the town with dinner and a hotel paid for in downtown Vancouver, and when you return the next day, the job is complete.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

j0tun,

what a great concept, if only quality wash, patch, caulk, and prime could all dry within a few hours.

why do I have problems with this concept ?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree with Bill that drying time inbetween coats is the real issue not to mention painting over wet caulk or other uncured stuff.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

y.painting said:


> Is there a difference b/w a painting franchise and a food franchise eg McD? (well, besides their products/services). Thoughts?


Basically: No


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

slickshift said:


> Basically: No


No.. but the food industry has more recognizable franchises then the painting industry. I think it will take a long time for painting franchise to take off and get name recognition... College pro for one is the most noticeable in our industry and they have a bad rap for good reasoning and that's when Certapro came on the market... time will tell how there name holds up...


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

y.painting said:


> Is there a difference b/w a painting franchise and a food franchise eg McD? (well, besides their products/services). Thoughts?


I have been rereading The EMyth Revisited, in it Michael Gerber talks about the Franchise Prototype.
It is all about the systems in place and learning to manage the system.

I think LC covered that in a previous thread.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> It is all about the systems in place and learning to manage the system.


RCP my response is not towards you, and is not a comment on whether you do or don't support franchises, it's about the concept of managing a system when it comes to painting when a person has no experience.

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Whether a system can effectively be implemented and managed by someone with zero experience is where I take issue.

It depends very much on the COMPLEXITY of the task.

For example a system for making a sandwich, compare to a system for constructing a violin. Those are two VASTLY different tasks.

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Think about someone who has been skiing regularly for 20 years.

Think about all of the various skills and techniques that person has honed in order to go to the mountain, and be a well rounded skier that can tackle moguls, jumps, cliff drops, backcountry hikes etc.

Even getting to the mountain effectively, driving up a pass in the snow is a practiced skill. Just WALKING in ski boots is a practiced skill. Simply getting on and off a lift is a practiced skill.

Much less traversing an icy bridge with a 30 foot rocky drop below, then dropping in to a narrow chute.

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Now take that person and a brand new person who has never even been to a mountain before, and play a game of "follow the leader" where the inexperienced skier has to follow the experienced skier and do everything the experienced skier has to do, and keep up with him too.

Can can the person with no experience keep up? How many different tasks would the inexpereinced person fall behind on during the day?

100?150? 200? how many specific individual tasks related to going to a mountain and having an advanced all around day at the mountain would the inexpereinced person not accomplish effectively?

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How many days of follow the leader would be required before the inexperienced person could keep up with the experienced person on all of the various tasks?

Could it be done in 1 day? How about 2 days? how about 5 days? what about 10 days?

Can people see my point?

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Now, lets say a franchise comes along that says, "Join us, and you can be an advanced professional skilled all around skier, take a couple classes, and study our literature, and then you will be equipped to keep up with skiers with 20 years expereince."

So the person pays the fee, takes the class, and studies the liturature and gets his new goretex and skiboots and is ready to keep up with the pros.

Is this person going to be able to play follow the leader now?

Is this person not going to do the splits and fall on their ass the second the get a pair of skis strapped on? Are they going to be able to get off the lift without falling on their ass?

How about going off jumps, and keeping up down a mogul field, or dropping in to a double black diamond chute?

Did paying the franchise fee and reading a bunch of literature about systems sufficiently equip them to even hold onto a rope tow and make it to the top of the bunny hill?

:no:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This is an interesting topic. I think one of the major paint publications will be covering this topic in the january issue. Its an important topic as it relates to what is happening in the paint industry today.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Because I love playing Devil's Advocate with you, LC, I will bite.

Let's say, to throw a wrench in the gears, that the skiing franchisee doesn't have to set foot on the skis. He is given a manual written by a skier with 35 years experience and ten Olympic Gold medals under his belt. In the manual is a run down of nearly everything that can happen on a slope. In addition, it is spelled out what equipment to buy. 

In the first few chapters are the basics of how to ski that the franchisee can learn on the bunny trails. The next few chapters are how to advance rapidly in technique and contain a phone number directly to the lifelong skier. There are also in-person training sessions that the franchisee can take advantage of. After the franchisee falls a couple times he figures out this is not for him. The following chapters in the book tell him how to hire a professional skier to take his place on the slopes and still get credit as if he were the one strapped in the boots.

That, to me, is a closer approximation of what a franchise is. There is no franchised operation that guarantees instant experience or riches from the gate. Franchises are merely a model that has been proven successful and is provided to take years away from a learning curve... not eliminate it.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree with LC, I don't think much of the Franchise Model in respect to painting per se, but as a business model there is a lot of systems in place that many of us do not have the skills to put into place. 
Marketing, Website, Business Plans, Finances, etc.

The concept of a "Turn Key" operation it is best left to the types of businesses that produce the same service/product over and over again.
Painting is a skill that cannot be bought.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Its an important topic as it relates to what is happening in the paint industry today.


Yup, independent funeral homes (that used to be) can attest to that.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

RCP said:


> I agree with LC, I don't think much of the Franchise Model in respect to painting per se, but as a business model there is a lot of systems in place that many of us do not have the skills to put into place.
> Marketing, Website, Business Plans, Finances, etc.
> 
> The concept of a "Turn Key" operation it is best left to the types of businesses that produce the same service/product over and over again.
> Painting is a skill that cannot be bought.



That, I will buy as it refers to the technical side of the craft. Is that not easily rectified by hiring painters that know their trade but cannot run a business?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ken

Thats the part I am not clear on. There are some newer paint franchises that make it very unclear where the credibility factor for "proven" lies. Moreover, even the longer standing ones, which I guess would be considered the most successful, I am not sure how well they meet the criteria that many small paint companies would consider success. 

I have a guy working for me who worked for one of the largest franchise service providers in their "Elite" division for two years. I have picked his brain for the past 6 months about the "systems" used and in every round of discussion it comes back to the following:

"Be prepared to answer your phone 24/7, hop in your car, drive to the office, get in a van, drive several hours to a location that needs smoke/water damage repair, do the work, come home, wait for phone to ring again, all for $11/hr."

And this was for what would be considered an industry leading franchise. 

Needless to say, he is extremely happy to be working a regular 40 hour week within 1 hour of his family at all times, for a much better income.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

i get stories from my college helpers every summer about the franchise they worked for.. I won't beat a dead horse cause we all know the horror stories about them.. but it just amazes me sometimes.. My summer helpers who I always supervised personally learn more in two weeks then they would of in 4 summers working for said franchise.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Is that not easily rectified by hiring painters that know their trade but cannot run a business?




How is a person with no experience in the trade, going to know how to *recognize* painters that "know their trade"? You don't see the irony there?

That takes experience. It also takes experience to know if an employee was _exaggerating_ his own experience.

I have seen examples of business owners who don't know what they are doing, taking their cues from painters they hired who don't know what THEY are doing.

I even worked for a guy once who had no experience painting and who tried to hire painters to work for him.

It was impossible for him to function in his role as administrator. The whole fiasco was a joke, I quit after 2 days and he went out of business a few months later.

My first day on that job I got into an argument with the painter he previously hired who came out while I was getting ready to spray and backbrush solid body stain onto a brand new lakehouse, and when I wasn't looking this painter boxed 3 gallons of paint thinner into 8 gallons of solid body stain.

I saw this person mixing it all up, and said "what are you doing"? The painter then said "I mixed paint thinner in so it would soak in better."

Then I said "you don't need to mix anything in with that stain, it's ready to go out of the can."

So the person proceeded to get in a huge argument with me, ordering me to just put it on anyway. This person was hired a week before me and thought that meant I should take orders.

So I called the owner of the company to tell him we needed to get another 8 gallons of stain, that this batch was useless, and it took me 45 minute to explain over the phone why we couldn't just use the stain how it was.

The most ridiculous questions ensued: "can you get the paint thinner out"? "What if you spray it on heavier" etc. etc.

The dude STILL didn't believe me and had to call the paint store and go in and talk to them before he was convinced.

Half the things that company did went like that.

The dude didnt know what kind of tools worked good. He didn't know what kind of tape to buy, or what products to recommend to customers.

His consultations with customers would lead them in the most ridiculous directions.

It is unfair for a person with no experience to subject property owners to charging them fair market value for a paintjob while learning their ABC's as a painter, and letting unsupervised persons who weren't even hired by someone capable of determining experience also work on the customer's property.

Even if the workers _were_ supervised by the contractor, it wouldn't make a difference when the contractor doesn't know anything about painting.

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Ken, I would be interested to hear your answer to the following questions:

You ever heard of a person who knows nothing about skiing being the person responsible for judging a ski jumping competition?

How about a person who knows nothing about basketball being a referee for a basketball game? Are experienced people used for that? Or people who know nothing about the game?

When designing a golf course, do people experienced with golf do this? Or people who have only played the game a couple times, and took a couple lessons who have the phone number of a golf course designer do this?

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I don't want to launch into the full treatment again, there is an earlier thread I posted on where I outlined quite extensively why experience is necessary to interact with customers, and to provide a service that is fair and safe for the customers, and the employees.

The owner of a paint company has the responsibility of acting in an administrative capacity CONSTANTLY.

Tell me, how does someone who has no experience in a field, act as an administrator in said field?

For police chiefs do they choose officers with a lot of experience? Or rookies with two weeks under their belt?

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It's not like these franchise owners are SILENT PARTNERS. Then I would agree with you.

I mean if a guy wants to put up the money for a business license, and the bond, and the equipment, and the insurance, and the advertising, and then share in the profits, but they let someone else completely MANAGE all of the actual operations/decisions that have to do with the jobsite including all of the customer and client interactions...*that would make sense to me *how someone with no experience could operate as a "paint contractor."


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I'll tie my response in to both Scott and LC.

There are crap franchises out there. I will go one step further and say many of the crap ones are service oriented. LC, in another post I agreed that getting field time and learning your craft is very important, thus playing "devil's advocate". This is why I spent years sweating over decks that were 130 degrees at the surface and sprayed water in 40 degrees to learn what I was doing. No franchise would have taken away that learning curve completely, but I will tell you that much of that time was spent learning systems of efficiency. Perhaps a good franchise manual would have avoided much of me having to bust hump. 

LC, you are looking at this from the technical side of the equation. I know you well enough now to understand that no matter what argument was made to sway you, you will not look beyond the craft of painting (even if I didn't know you, your name implies the storyline). The real story of a franchise is in the administration.

A franchise is a business model. That's all. The output of that business model is based on what the owner is capable of putting into it. I have read the bad reviews on College Painters, etc. The skills of the kids getting financed in these things is for the most part, ZERO. Does that make the franchise model bad? I dunno. I think at the very least some could be called unethical in their sales process. The fact remains that franchises have to perform to a certain standard (ie success rate) or the SEC and other gov't agencies come in and shut it down. There are people out there making these franchises work. Can the definition of "work" be questionable? Certainly. 

Look at a good franchise as a head start. Let's blindly throw a number at success rate and say a franchise gives a would-be business owner a +35% chance of sticking around for the long haul. My number may not be accurate but the number of new business owners that fail is statistically and significantly lower in a franchise model. 

LC, you asked about judges having to have the skiing experience to sit and look for flaws. That is true but is not an apples-to-apples comparison. I'm not trying to offend your sensibility when I say that a paint job is not rocket science. The average person can walk into a room and look to see if lines are straight, the walls are smooth, there are no drips and color is not bleeding through. The average person, given a set of standards to review (let's say from a franchise manual) can tell if a business is profitable or not. I would venture that none of the executive officers of Ford have worked on the assembly line. I doubt the HR manager of Ford has either, yet he/she will hire the assembly line workers. Its all about systems and standardizations. You can either buy a system or devise one yourself.

I'll reiterate my point once more for the sake of closing my viewpoint. A franchise is a head start, not a panacea for success. I think much of the dissent for a franchise stems from the way these things are sold. Pie-in-the-sky dreams are sold to anybody with a few dollars to spend on them. The fact remains... If you have no business sense and cannot be taught business, you are likely to fail regardless of whether you were a union painter for ten years or bought a painting franchise. 

Where you are correct, LC and I believe are getting stuck in your own dissent is that a franchise owner will never be as good a painter as a guy that worked his way up the ranks. No, he will not but he doesn't have to be. There are more important skill sets that a business owner needs to have to be a success.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> This is why I spent years sweating over decks that were 130 degrees at the surface and sprayed water in 40 degrees to learn what I was doing. No franchise would have taken away that learning curve completely,


And trust me, I would hire you to work on my deck over a franchise deck maintenance person whom I knew had no experience.

I believe a franchise would not have even cut your learning curve in *half.* But it's the CONTINUING _*application*_ of experience that is important.

What if the franchise manual recommends a certain product that is a good solution, but then the market changes and that product no longer works.

A contractor with experience knew WHY the product worked well, and WHAT traits, and capabilities should be taken into consideration when looking for a replacement.

And maybe there is a replacement product, that will require a different tool or technique to use than the original product, and the EXPERIENCED contractor will be able to successfully weigh the pros and cons of this adaptation, and how to work it into his system.

The inexperienced franchise owner who was just painting by numbers has NO CONCEPT of the whys or hows of these things and is dead in the water at that point.

But that example/dynamic doesn't just apply to product choice, it applies to hundreds, maybe thousands techniques, strategies, jobsite management etc.



PressurePros said:


> LC, you are looking at this from the technical side of the equation. I know you well enough now to understand that no matter what argument was made to sway you, you will not look beyond the craft of painting


That is *not* true. I am looking at this from the CUSTOMER SIDE OF THE EQUATION.

This is the part of the equation that you have repeatedly ignored.

The customer who is lead to believe that they will be receiving professional experienced advice and people working on their homes for the SAME PRICE range as seasoned experienced paint contractors.

The customer who is paying 12.5 percent off the top that goes straight to the fat-cat multilevel puppetmasters who started the franchise in the first place.



PressurePros said:


> (your name implies the storyline).


My name implies a multitude of things:

A certain type of architecture I am fond of,
The stone the builders rejected,
And the obvious literal definition that you picked up on. 

I am not exceptionally offended by your multiple attempts to quantify me or my motivations, but my opinion is, that is not a task you are particularly suited for.

It would probably benefit your case the most, if you just stick to your arguments and your reasoning that supports your position, and avoid speculating on my pathology.



PressurePros said:


> A franchise is a business model


So is a multilevel marketing scheme.



PressurePros said:


> I have read the bad reviews on College Painters, etc. The skills of the kids getting financed in these things is for the most part, ZERO. Does that make the franchise model bad? I dunno.


Have you read how a significant majority of them FAIL and actually wind up OWING MONEY?

Does that make the franchise model bad? "I dunno"



PressurePros said:


> I think at the very least some could be called unethical in their sales process.


I think this is an understatement, but I agree with the sentiment.



PressurePros said:


> The fact remains that franchises have to perform to a certain standard (ie success rate) or the SEC and other gov't agencies come in and shut it down.


Yes there are cases pending as we speak. 

Besides, lots of people start unscrupulous businesses who operate for a number of years before anyone catches up to them. The fact that a business has not been shut down, is in no way proof that such a business is a legitimate enterprise.




PressurePros said:


> the number of new business owners that fail is statistically and significantly lower in a franchise model.


Please cite a source for this in relation to *painting.* If you are going to use a statement of fact such as this to support your argument, I would like to see the data that supports it.

Are you sure you aren't just taking the data that applies to things like restaurant franchises, and applying it to painting franchises with pure speculation on your part?



PressurePros said:


> The average person can walk into a room and look to see if lines are straight, the walls are smooth, there are no drips and color is not bleeding through.




Well, you summed up the responsibilties of a painting contractor, except you left out the part about collecting the check.

I agree %100 with your statement, the problem is, that it represents about 1 ONE THOUSANDTH of what a paint contracting business owner is responsible for.

Ken, I have never known exactly if your business is geared specifically towards decks? Do you guys do fullscale painting projects? Such as interiors/exteriors/restorations etc?

This would be helpful for me to understand your position.



PressurePros said:


> Its all about systems and standardizations. You can either buy a system or devise one yourself.


*
OR*...

you can _LEARN_ one by working for an *established* painter who has a proven track record in the community of doing quality work by the testimony of many satisfied homeowners.

And how did this person start out? By doing the SAME THING.

And with this model customers are always having experienced, effective, execution and management of tasks and employees on their property, and do not have to be the guinee pigs of people charging them market value to learn their ABC's.



PressurePros said:


> I'll reiterate my point once more for the sake of closing my viewpoint. A franchise is a head start


Is it a headstart for the _customer?
_
Ken, lets cut to the chase:

If you were going to hire a painting contractor to paint the inside and outside of your home, would you rather hire/interact with/take advice from a contractor from your community who you knew had 15 years experience, and who personally had been running jobsites for 10 years, and who had a long list of references of satisfied homeowners....

OR would you hire a guy by your own description who had no experience in painting, but had taken a few classes, and a manual to go by, and had the phone number of the person who sold him the franchise to call for input, and who would be leaving persons he hired with no actual knowledge to recognise their skill level on your property to do the actual work, while the contractor you hired was absent from the job?

Which one Ken? Which one would you hire to paint your home? Lets assume they were competitive bids.

 




PressurePros said:


> I believe are getting stuck in your own dissent


This is one of the possibilities, that I am getting stuck in some way that is not allowing me to see this issue clearly.

Have you paused for one second to consider the possiblity, that perhaps YOU are stuck in some way that is not allowing YOU to see this issue clearly?



PressurePros said:


> There are more important skill sets that a business owner needs to have to be a success.


I wouldn't say MORE imprtant, but I would agree that technical knowledge alone does not guarantee a sucessful painting business.

Personally I feel what benefits, and is fair to the CUSTOMER is when a contractor has BOTH technical knowledge from ACTUAL experience, AND business savvy.

Ken, I have seen you present many arguments on this topic and I don't remember any of them having anything to do with what is most beneficial to the customer.

I think we may be looking at this from different viewpoints.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

I think y'all are breaking this down to the 'nth degree. Not neccessary in my opinion. Painting is not nuclear technology. It is very comparable to any other industry (burgers, retail, industry, etc...). Bottom line: there is not a single one of us on this board that are expertize at all phases of running an empire. What you are not good at or are comfortable with - hire a freakin expert in that field.

Ohhh nooo - the sky is falling - how would one hire an expert if he / she was not an expert in that field. It's called good business sense!


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

You re correct, LC, I am addressing merely from business perspective and from the broad perspective of franchises. If I worried about franchises from a customer perspective they would be down the list behind the jack-of-all trades handymen that use CraigsList to slaughter all of the trades. Taking the customer into account is too broad of a scope. I am not a consumer advocate or watchdog. 

I am not attacking you or implying anything from your screen name LC. I have read many of your posts. I'm clear from what direction you are coming. Its nothing personal. We are having this discussion because I come from a diametric viewpoint. We are probably not that far off in agreement on many things. I do not doubt what you are saying. Experience is the only true teacher... in a trade. But, the fact remains everyone must start somewhere. The head start is in what the majority of painting contractors have not yet grasped... the nuts and bolts of the business, not the craft. 

I will say you are probably an awesome painter. Perhaps in the top 5% of all painters in the world. As you know, that still leaves many painters that are even better and more experienced than yourself. If I hire one tomorrow to run my franchise, does that make my company superior to yours? There are only two markers of successful business... longevity and profit. Everything in business is predictable. A good franchise is one part of the equation. A smart owner is the other. You are taking this too personally. A franchise is a business model. I thought I was clear about that in the above post. It goes back to my post about John and Allen (I think those were the names I used). Being a good painter is a poor marker for how successful a painting company (or a deck resto company or an electrician or a plumber) will be.

I don't own a painting franchise so I have no stake in protecting them. I do own two retail franchises and they are run by unskilled labor (mostly high school kids). Both have high customer retention and I don't set foot in either one more than twice per month. Why? Because the systems for hiring, selling, operations, and bookkeeping have all been laid out.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> If I worried about franchises from a customer perspective they would be down the list behind the jack-of-all trades handymen that use CraigsList to slaughter all of the trades. Taking the customer into account is too broad of a scope. I am not a consumer advocate or watchdog.


Well as a tradesman, I feel obligated to take the customer "into account", and promote the well being of the customers of my trade.

I guess this is what you mean when you say I am "taking this too personally"



PressurePros said:


> I am not attacking you or implying anything from your screen name LC.


I did not feel that you were attacking me regarding my screen name, but you were arriving at erroneous conclusions pertaining to my motivations for speaking on this topic. 

So what you were implying is that you understood my motivations for speaking on this topic, based in part on my screen name.



PressurePros said:


> I have read many of your posts. I'm clear from what direction you are coming.


Ok, I hope so.

Because when you say things such as:



PressurePros said:


> LC, you are looking at this from the technical side of the equation. I know you well enough now to understand that no matter what argument was made to sway you, you will not look beyond the craft of painting.


This indicated to me that you did NOT know from what direction I am coming.



PressurePros said:


> As you know, that still leaves many painters that are even better and more experienced than yourself. If I hire one tomorrow to run my franchise, does that make my company superior to yours?


Actually if you get lucky and randomly hire such a person without the skills to recognize him, then yes it *does* mean your company will be superior*...IF...*you are a silent partner and allow said painter to *manage everything pertaining to the jobsite*: including customer consultation, job sequencing, employee evaluation, task assignment, equipment and product selection etc.

But what will you do if he quits, moves, gets injured?

Hire someone else? What if the next available person is only half as good as that guy, which again an inexperienced person hiring personnel would have no barometer to determine that except to allow the person to go slop around on a few jobs to determine "profitability" while putting the customer at risk. How do the customers benefit from such a trial and error system for determining employee effectiveness?

But lets say your new manager is at least half as good. So then your whole company changes and becomes less efficient/sloppier etc, because you are relying on a person with less effective strategic and management skills?

Your company could just change and reflect a new management?

That's a horrible way to build a customer base.



PressurePros said:


> There are only two markers of successful business... longevity and profit.


That depends on your definition of success. 

I would define something as successful if it also takes into consideration what is most beneficial to the customers. 

And also what is most beneficial/sustainable from a societal standpoint. Which in my opinion is to avoid the proliferation of an entire new breed of middleman who's primary function is to insert themselves into the revenue stream of a system that existed just fine without the middlemen getting involved.



PressurePros said:


> I do own two retail franchises and they are run by unskilled labor (mostly high school kids).


And I am 100% OK with these types of franchises. If they are making sandwiches or selling clothes, I see ZERO downside for the consumer that the owner of the company previously had no experience in the field.

If all the personnel has to do is clip the security tag off, or stack tomatoes on top of ham and cheese, I see no problem for the customer.

But when it comes to a skilled trade such as painting, carpentry, masonry etc, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of benefit to the customer when the person contracted to do the work has ample on the job experience.

And I have no doubt that the vast majority of customers would not want to take advice from a contractor if they understood that the contractor had zero experience in the field, and if they understood that the contractor was coming from a foundation of having taken a couple classes, and having read a manual.

And remember some of the franchises in question actually state that they *PREFER *that you don't have any experience as a painter.


----------



## br1dge (Sep 4, 2007)

*Are you kidding me?*



RCP said:


> Painting is a skill that cannot be bought.


I buy it every day, and sell it too. If you aren't selling that skill, how are you running a business?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

I guess the real question out there is: Can somebody with absolutely no experience painting run a painting business. I know of no such operation but I bet they could.

LC: You seem to hammer the point home about the owner not knowing how to hire someone that is qualified if that owner has no real painting experience and then that business owner simply unleashes this potential hack into someones home. If I interpreted you posts right - then I absolutely agree. What kind of biz owner would do something as foolish as that?

If I had no painting experience (personally, I've got 3 yrs in the bucket) and wanted to start up a painting biz I would hire some technicians. Let me break it down for you. As a smart business man, I would talk to the local paint stores and see if they knew of good painters, work with the paint stores to develop an interview questionerre (although I bet most franchises already have that form for you). Then I would absolutely not unleash the candidate that 1) passed the interview, 2) passed the background check, 3) showed me pics of his work, 4) personally checked with his / her past clients about their experience with said applicant. ) onto a customers home.

I am pretty sure within the franchise there are some experienced painters that would be more then willing to do a phone interview for you - if you, as an owner, still had no clue. 

Lastly - something as simple as an equipment checklist could help you determine if the potential employee was for real. Does not speak to their quality but it speaks to their real experience.

So, now lets say the potential candidate made it through all of the above. I'd still not unleash to the public. Again, this is assuming the paint company owner doesn't even know what a paint brush looks like. They would have to paint a room in my home or a family member's home. Then I would decide to unleash or not. Pretty low risk - don't ya think?


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I only can reiterate one point. The HR person that hires highly skilled labor at a large manufacturer has probably never worked at, let alone mastered, the job for which she is hiring. There is a set of criteria followed by due dilligence she uses to find a quality employee. I'm not sure why you are so stuck that someone must know painting to hire a good painter?

There are NEVER guarantees with an employee. In fact, and this is a wild guess, I would venture that a surprising percentage of the best tradespeople out there (not business owners) are drunks, drug addicts and have problems making it to work. I could hire an LC level painter that is consistently late, doesn't show up at a customer's house, sells side jobs, smokes wherever he feels like it, leers at the homeowners daughter etc. You can be the best painter with 20 years and this type of guy may slide into your workforce. The chance is even greater if you are a master craftsman painter and bad business person.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> I'm not sure why you are so stuck that someone must know painting to hire a good painter?
> 
> quote]
> 
> If you were one you might understand. Your definition of a good painter and my definition are probably miles apart.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> PressurePros said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure why you are so stuck that someone must know painting to hire a good painter?
> ...


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

br1dge said:


> I buy it every day, and sell it too. If you aren't selling that skill, how are you running a business?



I think your interpretation of RCP's statement is an issue of semantics.

That's not exactly what she meant. Besides she never said anything about selling it.

And this gets a thanks from PressurePro's?

Sheesh.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> It doesn't matter what y'all think. I don't mean that to be rude. It matters what the customer thinks / perceives.


Perceives?

So the integrity of the work doesnt matter as long as the customer "thinks" that they are getting a job well done?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> > Perceives?
> ...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I think your interpretation of RCP's statement is an issue of semantics.
> 
> That's not exactly what she meant. Besides she never said anything about selling it.
> 
> ...


I believe she meant that you can not walk in off the street with your check to made out to a franchise and buy knowledge in the industry. 

It is very interesting to see the parties discussing each side of the topic.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I dont bother chasing mice around...


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

It's interesting that out of all the points made on both sides it is RCP's that is getting analyzed.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > Actually - yes. As long as you meet or exceed the client's expectations - then - hell yea - job well done. Collect your check and and move on. "Integrity of the work"? Are you kidding me? If you can't back up your sh!t then you will be eating ramen noodles for dinner very quickly. Reputation - my brother.
> ...


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> > Tail light warranty at Frech Coat.
> ...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > Shhhh... Yes - I have been. That's why I don't understand why most of y'all think this is the easy road...
> ...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > Shhhh... Yes - I have been. That's why I don't understand why most of y'all think this is the easy road...
> ...


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> > The strut tricked everyone. You rascal! :thumbsup:
> ...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> > WOW - You still stuck on that? LOL. I was referring to confidence - bro.:blink:
> ...


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> I only can reiterate one point. The HR person that hires highly skilled labor at a large manufacturer has probably never worked at, let alone mastered, the job for which she is hiring.


Ken, you keep making completely irrelevant comparisons.

Besides, at large manufacturers or other corporations skilled knowledgeable people do the evaluating and hiring. So in fact someone with experience in the field DOES do the hiring.

Here is an example. We do work for a large investment company. The company is in the business of investing people's money. The ceo's and other head honchos at the company are knowledgeable about INVESTING. 

They have an entire team of COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS who do various tasks such as customized software development for statistical analysis and personalized account software etc.

Now when the board of directors decides they want to open a new division in a different city, and want' to add to their programming team to take care of that division...

Do you think one of the ceo's of the company hires them? Do you think someone from the graphic design department hires them? Do you think one of the security guards hires them?

*NO*. One of the SENIOR COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS is responsible for evaluating and HIRING the new programmers. They even write the advertisements describing specifically what qualifications are required for the position.

Why you ask? Oh, well let me explain...

You see, they know what languages and coding skills are required for the applications they are developing, they know what kind of education is relevant to the task, they know what kind of previous job experience qualifies them for this particular computer programming objective, etc.

So not only is this example not relevant, even if it was, it is wrong, large companies use people with knowledge and understanding of the skillsets required for the position to HIRE for the position. 

----------------

Besides I have put forth so many other compelling points and questions that you have not addressed.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Where to begin....
I don't think you can buy a franchise and instantly become a craftsman. Yes, you can hire people to paint, but personally, I don't understand why someone would choose a painting business to buy if they did not have a passion, or at least an interest in painting. 

I was talking to the owner of pizza franchise the other day, she loves it because she does not have to be involved too much, she can hire employees that follow a preset script for every aspect of the business. She said the biggest issue she has is employees who want to "think outside the box" or "build a better pizza". She hires teens with no skills and wants them to do it a certain way. I think of that as the Franchise Model, I may be wrong.

Maybe I have a different view because I have been married to a painter for 27 years and see the skills his experiences have taught him. He is constantly trying new products and methods, experimenting and finding better ways to do the job. That can't be "bought".

Yes, you can hire a skilled painter, but the heart of the business should have paint pumping through it! OK, that was corny, but y'all get what I mean?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*Are you kidding me?*



RCP said:


> but the heart of the business should have paint pumping through it!


RCP...hearts don't have paint pumping through them, hearts pump BLOOD.

Everybody knows that, are you kidding me? If your heart is pumping paint, and not blood, how do you run the business of getting oxygen to your organs and extremities?


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

........


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> ........


Good call. :thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

A good horse begins to run when he sees the shadow of the whip.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Machine gun vs snowballs


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Actually I am thinking more like windshield toward a fly.


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## brushmonkey (Jan 4, 2010)

Insane story! You could'nt make this st up if you tried. I knew College Pro was sketchy but I had no idea it was to this extent.


y.painting said:


> This here is a personal story of one such kid. Pretty long....I actually bookmarked it a few years back.
> 
> *My experience with College Pro Painters, and other life-changing experiences of the last two years*


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Neither side is going to change the other's mindset no matter what they write. I appreciate the debate because at the end of the day I do learn something. I made my points clearly and they are from the business end/investor perspective. This perhaps is not the best place to do that as it can be viewed with offense. I respect what painters do (have done it and employed out of work union painters to do it). I don't get emotionally attached to business. Its an entity. Painting for many of you is a passion so I can totally understand the crossover. Thanks for the good discussion. Lookin' forward to the next one, LC!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ken

According to the most recent poll on this forum, the high percentage of members claim gross sales in excess of $40k per year. You may think you are in a room full of technicians...


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Ken
> 
> According to the most recent poll on this forum, the high percentage of members claim gross sales in excess of $40k per year. You may think you are in a room full of technicians...



I would never make that assumption. :thumbup: There is no foul...just different perspectives.


----------



## Calist (Jul 19, 2009)

There was this discussion on a previous thread already. link is here... http://www.painttalk.com/f4/accidental-entrepreneurship-6346/

I think its easy to single out franchises because of their size. They tend to bring alot of things to the table that most small painting companies can't compete with. They are in a position to negotiate better deals in everything from paint prices to insurance costs. This allows a franchise owner to offer a lower price to their customers and make a bigger profit margin than those same small painting companies.

I'm not argueing that companies like College Painters are a blight on the industry. Just saying that not all franchises are wrong, bad, unprofessional, what have you. With any industry, you have your bad, your good, and your best.

There are plenty of 1 to 5 man operations who are terrible at painting, do poor work, aren't on time, or even show up when they are supposed to. They drink on the job, have drug problems, ect... And everyone knows someone like that in their area. If you don't, its you. Problem is, only those in your area know about that company. On the internet, you can complain about Joe's Painting but only get a minor response because no one but you has heard of Joe's Painting. Franchises are everywhere, Everyone has heard of them, so its easy to jump on them.

Any company is only as good as the person running it, whether its a kid in school or a guy who's been at it for 40 years. And I've seen some guys who've been painting for 20, 30 years who aren't all that good. 

What I'm saying I guess, is judge the Franchise individually, not as a whole, just as you judge painters individually, not as an industry.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

I was completely finished with this thread after PressurePro's closure of the topic.

But sine there is a brand new participant, I feel I should address a couple of these points made by Calist.



Calist said:


> I think its easy to single out franchises because of their size.


Calist. I have brought up MANY very compelling and valid points during this thread, and NONE of them had to do with the "size" of franchises.

I am not saying it's intentional, but that statement is misdirecting. No one was singling out franchises because of their size, or because they supposedly are in a position to offer a "lower price to the customer"

This makes it sound like the franchises are somehow BENEFITING the customer in a way that established experienced paint contractors can not.

All of the points I made were quite the opposite, and were supporting a position that franchise owners are not in a position in the vast majority of instances to benefit the customer.

----------

If you would like to enter the dialogue at this point, I wouldn't mind if you would address a few of the points that I brought up that PressurePros and Fresh Coat chose not to.



Calist said:


> They tend to bring alot of things to the table that most small painting companies can't compete with. They are in a position to negotiate better deals in everything from paint prices to insurance costs. This allows a franchise owner to offer a lower price to their customers and make a bigger profit margin than those same small painting companies.


You followed this with a reference to a particular College Painter outfit.

Have you read the volumes of testimony regarding College Painting franchise owners who get roped into contracts which include production quotas and actually wind up OWING the franchise money?

A scenario where some kid gets conned into floating all the money for equipment, and working all summer to wind up owing money is pretty much diametrically opposed to your statement that owning a franchise allows one to "make a bigger profit margin than those same small painting companies"



Calist said:


> There are plenty of 1 to 5 man operations who are terrible at painting, do poor work, aren't on time, or even show up when they are supposed to. They drink on the job, have drug problems, ect...


But franchises also have the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS.

So *if* there is something intrinsically detrimental about franchises when compared to established contractors who are operating from a foundation of real on the job experience, ( which is my premise ) then, the fact that BOTH have the potential to have the problems you mentioned is irrelevant.

Either one has the potential to also be bank robbers, or brain eating zombies, so what?

That would be like the driver of a Pinto, or a Corvair, saying that a Volvo has the potential to slide out on black ice, so therefore, Pintos and Corvairs are just as safe as Volvos.

But ALL of them have the potential to slide out on black ice, so you have to look at what is remaining to draw a comparison.



Calist said:


> Franchises are everywhere, Everyone has heard of them, so its easy to jump on them.


Calist I really feel taking the debate in this direction is unfair on your part.

All of the points that I have made address issues that SPECIFICALLY pertain to the concept that franchises are geared towards people with NO EXPERIENCE as painters.

To dismiss the points that I have made as simply being the result of the fact that "franchises are everywhere", is completely erroneous.




Calist said:


> What I'm saying I guess, is judge the Franchise individually, not as a whole, just as you judge painters individually, not as an industry.


I would like to do this, but in my opinion the ENTIRE concept of franchises in the trades is flawed.

The closest I can come to doing what you ask is to make EXCEPTIONS for individual franchise owners who I happen to discover have enough experience to deliver a fair service to the customer.

Which is an exception that I HAVE made in *your *case. Which by way, you are the only franchise owner I am aware of that has convinced me that he/she was experienced enough to warrant such a distinction.

But I do think this is a rare exception, and I am not willing to just dismiss flaws intrinsic to an an ENTIRE SYSTEM, simply because on a very rare occasion, the flaws are not present.

----------

Calist you said yourself that the Fresh Coat Franchise:

*"Prefer that you don't have any experience as a painter."*

And if you look on Craigslist it is OVERFLOWING with examples where the franchises specifically state that the employees need no expereince, and the jobsite MANAGERS need no experience.

*This* is the problem. Not the fact that franchises are everywhere, not the fact established paint contractors might have a drug problem. It is not because of their "size". It is not because franchises are "easy to jump on".

None of these comments adequately address the issues that I have raised.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Last Craftsman said:


> I was completely finished with this thread after PressurePro's closure of the topic.
> 
> But sine there is a brand new participant, I feel I should address a couple of these points made by Calist.
> 
> ...


LC: I thought I addressed the "core" of issues in this post 

"I guess the real question out there is: Can somebody with absolutely no experience painting run a painting business. I know of no such operation but I bet they could.

LC: You seem to hammer the point home about the owner not knowing how to hire someone that is qualified if that owner has no real painting experience and then that business owner simply unleashes this potential hack into someones home. If I interpreted you posts right - then I absolutely agree. What kind of biz owner would do something as foolish as that?

If I had no painting experience (personally, I've got 3 yrs in the bucket) and wanted to start up a painting biz I would hire some technicians. Let me break it down for you. As a smart business man, I would talk to the local paint stores and see if they knew of good painters, work with the paint stores to develop an interview questionerre (although I bet most franchises already have that form for you). Then I would absolutely not unleash the candidate that 1) passed the interview, 2) passed the background check, 3) showed me pics of his work, 4) personally checked with his / her past clients about their experience with said applicant. ) onto a customers home.

I am pretty sure within the franchise there are some experienced painters that would be more then willing to do a phone interview for you - if you, as an owner, still had no clue. 

Lastly - something as simple as an equipment checklist could help you determine if the potential employee was for real. Does not speak to their quality but it speaks to their real experience.

So, now lets say the potential candidate made it through all of the above. I'd still not unleash to the public. Again, this is assuming the paint company owner doesn't even know what a paint brush looks like. They would have to paint a room in my home or a family member's home. Then I would decide to unleash or not. Pretty low risk - don't ya think?" 

I like how you picked part of my point in your bottom sig line. But you left out the important part that put it into context. If I was eight years old - I'd go through one of your posts and pull out a sentence or part of a sentence and leave out the rest to make it seem like a legit reponse on your end. But I won't. 

Without a 10 page response, I am curious about how you percieved the quoted response above.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

So Fresh, is that the hiring method you used? I thought you mentioned you have several subs? Do franchises generally hire experienced painters, use subs or train painters?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Kev

You gotta admit, LC's quote of you is kinda funny. He could have chosen "I respect lowballers." You are kind of like a highlights film when it comes to kooky paint business quotes. I still say, after you get 3, 4, 5, 10 years under your belt and look back at what you are saying and doing now, you will feel queezy. It happens to us all. Perfectly natural. For year 2, you are on it! Now, dont start strutting please. :thumbsup:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> You are kind of like a highlights film when it comes to kooky paint business quotes.


:lol:


Lol.

I swear to God this is almost identical to a point I was going to make a few days ago but didn't because I was trying to post on topic.

I suppose I made the point inderectly by pimping out my signature line.



P.S. Fresh Coat, I am working on your answer.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

RCP said:


> So Fresh, is that the hiring method you used? I thought you mentioned you have several subs? Do franchises generally hire experienced painters, use subs or train painters?


RCP. No that is not the method I used. I use subs - mostly. Your last question, I can't answer what franchises do. FC strongly advocates hiring vs. subs. Each franchise is different. Even franchises within the same franchise. Personally, I think a combination of all the ones you mentioned would be a great foundation. (experienced painters, use subs or train painters)


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Kev
> 
> You gotta admit, LC's quote of you is kinda funny.


Funny - yes. But, definitely out of context.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Last Craftsman said:


> :lol:
> 
> P.S. Fresh Coat, I am working on your answer.


Now see, that is why I am going to have to bow out. I was not looking for a debate but a simple , simple discussion. I dont want to have to "work on a reply". Just let it flow and type a response.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Kev
> 
> You gotta admit, LC's quote of you is kinda funny. He could have chosen "I respect lowballers." You are kind of like a highlights film when it comes to kooky paint business quotes. I still say, after you get 3, 4, 5, 10 years under your belt and look back at what you are saying and doing now, you will feel queezy. It happens to us all. Perfectly natural. For year 2, you are on it! Now, dont start strutting please. :thumbsup:


I know I'll look back and laugh. Hell, I look back at some of the stuff I tried a year ago and laugh. We are learning - though.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> Without a 10 page response, I am curious about how you percieved the quoted response above.


Don't ask me to do something then put a qualifier in that insists on how I do it.

It's ironic that you should say that though, because the reason why I did not respond to your post, is because the thread was already unwieldy as it was, and I was trying not to fracture the discussion.

Also, I found it quite annoying that I had brought up a MULTITUDE of very good points which no proponent of franchises including *yourself* went any where near, and you want to boil it all down to the one about someone with no experience in painting not being qualified to determine the skill of a painter applying for the position.



fresh coat said:


> LC: I thought I addressed the "core" of issues in this post


No, you addressed *ONE* of the issues I raised, certainly not the core.



fresh coat said:


> if that owner has no real painting experience and then that business owner simply unleashes this potential hack into someones home. If I interpreted you posts right - then I absolutely agree. What kind of biz owner would do something as foolish as that?


According to Calist, it is *"preferred that franchise owners have no experience painting."*

My premise is that someone who doesn't know anything about painting doesn't know what to look for in a prospective employee. Lots of people agree with this position, be it in relation to the painting trade, or auto mechanics, or computer programmers etc.

So I believe that "releasing a potential hack" into someone's home is exactly what a franchise owner with no experience is doing. 

Also, according to Calist, here a method that he explained that an inexperienced franchise owner not only hires, but MONITERS, and OVERSEES the performance of employees on a CONTINUING basis.

( remember my issues in this direction are not just about the moment a person is hired, but the CONTINUING oversight ofa non-experienced franchise owner regarding employee on the job performance. )



Calist said:


> *This question is a bit more technical but I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. It all comes down to data. Every employee and every job is tracked. We are looking for X amount of dollars per hour of job, if the painter is experienced he will meet this amount consistently. If he is consistantly below that number then its time to find another painter. .(portion removed for length) ..Then of course, you also look at the job. If the painter can't cut a line straight, you know he's not as experienced as he let on. Follow up with the customers, are they satisfied? If you get complaints about your painters, its another indication you need to hire new ones..."
> 
> *I see NO way to interpret any of these this comments other than AFTER THE FACT strategies.
> 
> ...


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> Now see, that is why I am going to have to bow out. I was not looking for a debate but a simple , simple discussion. I dont want to have to "work on a reply". Just let it flow and type a response.


Again with the qualifiers? This is a cheap tactic. You are finding ways that have ZERO to do with the topic which invalidate my posts, and absolve yourself of responsibility for you own posts.

Let it flow out and type a response is EXACTLY what I do.

But I was looking in old threads for quotes to answer your question which is what you asked me to do, and it takes time to find them.

I was only letting you know that I was "working on a reply", so that in the meantime, you would think I had ignored your request to address your questions.

I don't blame you for bowing out though,

You probably should have just replaced your post with several of these:

.........

BTW. 

I wasn't curious before, but I missed what you said in that post.

Would I find it interesting?


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

wow I think I just read a book...


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> That was tempting. Fresh Coat, you will never know how many *really good zingers* I have suppressed when viewing your posts in the name of staying on topic and not introducing ad hominem arguments into the forum:yes:


Now that would be a book!

Thanks for some great reading LC:notworthy:


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

LC: Just talking about a discussion not a debate. You know - kinda like shootin' the sh!t. Usually, during a a discussion one is not quoting the other and researching prior documents to support their argument.

If you want to shoot the sh!t - cool. If you want to debate - I am out. Not what I am here for.:no:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> If you want to shoot the sh!t - cool. If you want to debate - I am out. Not what I am here for.:no:


More signature quality posts.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have never known Kev to be argumentative.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I have never known Kev to be argumentative.


We all know he is unarmed in this battle. That's why the retreat.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> RCP. No that is not the method I used. I use subs - mostly.


Kev

What is it about this model that you prefer?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Y'all, I come here to banter, brainstorm, and - basically - kick back and shoot the sh!t. If this is not the forum to do that - just let me know.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> RCP. No that is not the method I used. *I use subs - mostly.* Your last question, I can't answer what franchises do. FC strongly advocates hiring vs. subs. Each franchise is different. Even franchises within the same franchise. Personally, I think a combination of all the ones you mentioned would be a great foundation. (experienced painters, use subs or train painters)


 
This is the foundation for most franchise painting companies. Cheat the labor and offer a lower price. 

Kev - you should stop posting. The more you write the worse it gets.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> Y'all, I come here to brainstorm,.


 
LOL!!!!

When have you ever brainstormed anything besides asking others how to market or paint?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> This is the foundation for most franchise painting companies. Cheat the labor and offer a lower price.
> 
> Kev - you should stop posting. The more you write the worse it gets.


I believe you mis-understood me. The foundation I was refering to was the labor force that RCP was inquiring about "(experienced painters, use subs or train painters)"


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

This thread seems to have strayed a bit and has become a little murky. SOT!!


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> LOL!!!!
> 
> When have you ever brainstormed anything besides asking others how to market or paint?


Plenty. Review my posts. Even, your boy, VP mentioned some of the hair brained ideas I've floated out there.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> This thread seems to have strayed a bit and has become a little murky. SOT!!


I'm sorry Sean but this guy is the topic of this thread. The more he reveals the more he tells the story of a franchise that everyone here has been discussing how much they despise. It doesnt get any truer than coming straight from the horse's mouth.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm sorry Sean but this guy is the topic of this thread. The more he reveals the more he tells the story of a franchise that everyone here has been discussing how much they despise. It doesnt get any truer than coming straight from the horse's mouth.


I understand that but to keep it all flowing we all need to try to be respectful of each other. 

His business model is not understood as the norm and has a lot of negative stigma attached to it. If we hope to learn any truth about the painting franchise we have to be adults about it. 


I am saying this in a general way as I can see how this thread might start to crumble.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm sorry Sean but this guy is the topic of this thread. The more he reveals the more he tells the story of a franchise that everyone here has been discussing how much they despise. It doesnt get any truer than coming straight from the horse's mouth.


See - here is my problem with the above statement. I run and operate (for the most part) my business the way I want to. Yes - I've got to be insured, w/c, etc.. to be compliant with the franchise agreement but we still get to do our own thing. How is that all that much different then an experienced painting contractor tryin to start up his / her own shop?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Kev

I dont think it so much matters that you spent too much money on a franchise to run and that the 7% lien makes it hard for you to operate profitably and make a salary. That was your call. 

I think the bigger issue at hand is that your posts come off as those of a commodity salesman with little regard for the bigger picture of the industry you chose to enter. A carpet cleaning franchise or something may have been a better fit for the attitude you take toward the service you deliver. Carpets clean, collect check, on to the next.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

To stay on topic:

What makes a person decide to buy into a painting franchise?


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I understand that but to keep it all flowing we all need to try to be respectful of each other.
> 
> His business model is not understood as the norm and has a lot of negative stigma attached to it. If we hope to learn any truth about the painting franchise we have to be adults about it.


I agree. 

But it is difficult to even address this issue at all, without saying things that might make someone feel bad.

Sometimes it is a difficult line to establish, when someone want's to express their true opinion about an issue that effects all of us, but that opinion has the potential to make someone feel bad, what do you do?

One thing NEPS said is true which is that in a way, FC is the topic of this thread. Or more succinctly, his position, and argument, and philosophy is the topic of this thread. 

I was content originally to not say anything directed specifically at FC, and keep my posts specifically on the topic of the structure and traits of franchises.

But he addressed me directly, and I responded.

( not that I interpreted your post as necessarily directed at me, but just explaining my involvement with FC. )

I honestly have no desire or intentions of challenging FC as a person.

But if he is stating a position and supporting a position/business model that I personally feel is harmful, and detrimental, I will need to challenge his position.

Unfortunately, people identify with their positions, and take it personally when someone speaks against their positions.

Sometimes it is difficult to address someone's position/statements/practices, without making that person feel bad.

And simply by making someone feel bad, that could be considered "being disrespectful."

It is difficult to know where the line is sometimes.

Incidentally, what does SOT mean?


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Stay On Topic


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Fresh, the reason I asked you about the subs is because of the "experienced painters" issues. Although you imply that franchises prefer to train/hire, you use subs. So you rely on their knowledge of product and procedures? Do they represent themselves to the HO as FC employees?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

We have to understand that it is not Kevin's fault. He was sold a model that he strongly believes in and is starting to understand that this business is tougher than the franchise sales booklet made it out to be. He is coming here trying to gain every kind of advantage possible to keep his head above water to succeed. I dont blame him as a individual. Although he does make some ridiculous posts and we are all guilty of that from time to time. It is unfortunate that Kevin is the lightening rod for most of the franchise slander that goes on but he does bring a fair share of that upon himself.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Truth be told, I feel sorry for Kev a little, except for when the cat struts. He spent alot of money on something. If the idea is that the franchise puts you a step ahead in your infrastructure, systems, procedures, website template, marketing strategy etc, my question would be: If FC is a new franchise, how could they even claim to be selling something that was proven in business, much less proven in the paint industry? I am sure the venture capitalist at the top of the pyramid researched a few years ago and read something that said that home improvement services were one of the top growing service oriented businesses to get into. Then everything changed. This cat is trying to sell paper for large commercial. Its a bum deal.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

The having to cough up the franchises % every month forever is what gets me. It should be a X-amount of time or X-% 



LC: 
I know what you mean. and it is great to be around so many people with passion for this industry and as Dean pointed out SOT = Stay On Topic.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> The having to cough up the franchises % every month forever is what gets me. It should be a X-amount of time or X-%


I think thats what alot of the questions circle around: what exactly did the franchise do for Kev that entitles them to keep that lien on his business? I can see if they set him up with branding and enough support to pretty much guarantee margins that would make the lien a spit in the ocean. Obviously, that hasnt happened for Kev. He wouldnt be here asking so many questions. The franchise should be the ones helping him. 

The other part of it...where did that $20somethingK he invested go? And what would have been the value of that money if he either kept it, or simply invested it in the launch of an independent business. That is more than most of us launched with, and some of us (not me, but some others) have done pretty well.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> Fresh, the reason I asked you about the subs is because of the "experienced painters" issues. Although you imply that franchises prefer to train/hire, you use subs. So you rely on their knowledge of product and procedures? Do they represent themselves to the HO as FC employees?


This is a very good question in my opinion as it pertains to things I value as to maintaining job quality and customer satisfaction.

Fresh Coat perhaps you could address this:

Another important point that I feel is relevant here is that a subcontracting business that is set up to sub out the work they are contracted for is a VERY CLEAR example of a superfluous middleman.

Once this route is standardized, why not establish a subcontracting company, that hires subcontractors, that hires subcontractors to do the actual work?


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I think thats what alot of the questions circle around: what exactly did the franchise do for Kev that entitles them to keep that lien on his business? I can see if they set him up with branding and enough support to pretty much guarantee margins that would make the lien a spit in the ocean. Obviously, that hasnt happened for Kev. He wouldnt be here asking so many questions. The franchise should be the ones helping him.
> 
> The other part of it...where did that $20somethingK he invested go? And what would have been the value of that money if he either kept it, or simply invested it in the launch of an independent business. That is more than most of us launched with, and some of us (not me, but some others) have done pretty well.


I think it will be better if we try and distance this a little from Kevin specifically and focus more on the franchises themselves.

Yeah they have that lein for the set up costs and the maintaining of the company image but there should be a cap on it. 

I think the investment money and the fees go to the same place.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I think it will be better if we try and distance this a little from Kevin specifically and focus more on the franchises themselves.
> 
> Yeah they have that lein for the set up costs and the maintaining of the company image but there should be a cap on it.
> 
> I think the investment money and the fees go to the same place.


The guy in that place must be feeling pretty good. I am sure they make the franchisees sign their life away with no recourse down the road. You're right, its not so much about Kev specifically as it is about the concept in general as it relates to painting in particular. Holy qualifiers. 

I think others have said, its one thing to franchise ice cream, frozen yogurt, sandwiches, burgers, all kinds of commodities. Services are a bird of a different feather. In my opinion.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Let's shift focus. I agree wholeheartedly that if a painting franchise is not providing systems for support, national advertising and brand recognition, clear cut administrative systems as well as technician stuff involving actually holding a paintbrush, it is not a good franchise. I'd like to hear more from the Fresh Coat guys. 

What are you getting/have you gotten from corporate?


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> The guy in that place must be feeling pretty good.


I one time was reading the promotional literature for one of the college franchises, and in an effort to validate how established they were, they bragged that the corporate headquarters grossed 12 million dollars that year.

:blink:

That's 12 million dollars that could have been divided up by the customers if you ask me.

I have a problem with the very FOUNDATION of these franchises as a concept.

In my opinion they are designed by people who just want to skim money off of the top of everything.

They then went on to show some kid in a cheap shirt and tie sitting behind a fold up table saying "our particiapants are learning a business skill".

And then they showed 8-12 college painters all standing around watching one college painter up a ladder with a roller painting the side of a barn.

Literally "the broad side of a barn".

Prompting the question:

How many student painters does it take to paint the broadside of a barn?


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

It's a lot easier to manage a service like a food franchise then a painting franchise. As RCP mentioned about the pizza joint, there is a simple routine that is followed with instructions for each step. It is a lot easier to deal with complaints about a burger missing the cheese then a poorly prepped trim package.

Some franchises can thrive and others bomb, it just depends on the individual operator. 

Are there other construction franchises beside plumbers painters and electricians?


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Are there other construction franchises beside plumbers painters and electricians?


ELECTRICIANS?

There are franchises for electricians.

I knew there was a new breed of all kinds of handyman, carpentry, plumber franchises. That is alarming enough.

Electricians?

I thought there were very strict regulations regarding the hiring and delegating of electrical services to the public.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> ELECTRICIANS?
> 
> There are franchises for electricians.
> 
> ...


lol that might of been a misassumption on my part.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> What are you getting/have you gotten from corporate?


I can't find the quote, but I think remember Calist saying something once about not being able to divulge certain proprietary information about how their franchise works.

I wonder what kinds of advantages this knowledge gives franchise members?

Are we privy to it as well?



Does any one know which quite this was? I paraphrased it, I couldn't find it using the search feature.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I was curious about that, I was just checking. Check this out, 6 of the 10 fastest growing franchises were commercial cleaning!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> ELECTRICIANS?
> 
> There are franchises for electricians.
> 
> ...


MR. Electric here has locations in other states, not sure how much of a franchise it is though.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> lol that might of been a misassumption on my part.


Sheesh. Try to be careful from now on.

I just about had a heart attack, thinking this is the end of all standards as we knew them.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Sheesh. Try to be careful from now on.
> 
> I just about had a heart attack, thinking this is the end of all standards as we knew them.


Actually i just looked into the MR, Electric franchise. 
It cost 19,000. start up 65,000. total investment and is in multiple countrys as well. 
I also found HVAC and Roofing as well.

http://www.thefranchisemall.com/franchises/details/10739-0-Mr_Electric.htm


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> I was curious about that, I was just checking. Check this out, 6 of the 10 fastest growing franchises were commercial cleaning!



I find this a little annoying from the proliferation of middlemen side of the debate, but I don't feel it is as much of an affront to direct consumers.

Because 

A: cleaning is a little like making a sandwich, allthough having been a janitor in my youth, experience definitely helps one clean more efficiently which leads to better results because the task is not so duanting.

and

B: Cleaning is a task that is done repeatedly many times in a month/week.

Meaning that if the job isn't done correctly, someone can woalk in the next day, and say "this is terrible" and not hire those people back.

Something not cleaned properly is VERY reversable, just have someone clean it properly the next day.

AN improperly painted house is not so easy to reverse.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Actually i just looked into the MR, Electric franchise.
> It cost 19,00 start up 65,000 total investment and is in multiple cuntrys as well.
> I also found HVAC and Roofing as well.


Painters, Electricians, HVAC, AND ROOFING????

AAAAAGGGHHHGHWWHHHH............

also *FRANCHISE MALL??????????????????????????????????????????????????????*

:confused1:  :cursing::wallbash::wacko::surrender::help:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

LOL!

Call it a night LC! Sweet Dreams:sleeping:


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> Call it a night LC! Sweet Dreams


Originally I had 16 emoticons, but I was forced to choose only 8. Here are the other 8 which I originally intended to complete the sequence.


:surrender::help::drink::drink::drink::drink: :drink: :hang:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Yep browse that site, all of the painting ones are there and thousands of others as well.
Hope it did not cause you to many sleepless nights.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

LC, I was going to franchise my operation. (sell PressurePros as a wood restoration franchise model). You should be proud of me.. Rather than seek investors to just bilk guys out of their cashed in pensions, I put it on hold to make sure my model is complete and will give a company a competitive starting edge with all marketing, selling and technique strategies that have been time tested.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

certa pro struggled here for a year or 2 and failed

same for fresh coat.

all that slick advertising, nationally recognized name, new van with a wrap, and a stack of ladders wont prop you up.

franchises are top heavy imo.

my grandfather looked at a franchise in the 50's. he drove on dirt roads from michigan to arizona to check one out. he came back and decided to do it on his own. he used the franchise as a rough model, (including the layout of the building) and has thrived for over 50 years. he had complete control.


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## Paint Works (Aug 1, 2007)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


PressurePros said:


> I only can reiterate one point. The HR person that hires highly skilled labor at a large manufacturer has probably never worked at, let alone mastered, the job for which she is hiring. There is a set of criteria followed by due dilligence she uses to find a quality employee. I'm not sure why you are so stuck that someone must know painting to hire a good painter?
> 
> There are NEVER guarantees with an employee. In fact, and this is a wild guess, I would venture that a surprising percentage of the best tradespeople out there (not business owners) are drunks, drug addicts and have problems making it to work. I could hire an LC level painter that is consistently late, doesn't show up at a customer's house, sells side jobs, smokes wherever he feels like it, leers at the homeowners daughter etc. You can be the best painter with 20 years and this type of guy may slide into your workforce. The chance is even greater if you are a master craftsman painter and bad business person.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I cant understand why people are stuck in this mindset either. This does tend to be more of the self employed mindset vs. the business owner way of thinking.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Paint Works said:


> I cant understand why people are stuck in this mindset either. This does tend to be more of the self employed mindset vs. the business owner way of thinking.


His post is sort of misleading because ANY company whether it is a franchise or not can have the problems he discussed.

SO the question is after removing those problems as an issue, what remains to compare between the two models.

I noticed on your website you were quoted as saying:

"*"**Any Body Can Paint" I hear this one a lot,"

*I agree with you 100%. Did you know the franchise we are talking about states that they PREFER their franchise owner has no experience?

I mean, what do they need experience for? "Anyone" can do it.

I mean who needs experience? All anyone needs is a manual and a couple classes, and their company can be just as efficient and effective as your company, Paintworks Inc.


----------



## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

Your only as good, as your WORST employee


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Woody said:


> Your only as good, as your WORST employee


What process does one need to go through to fire ones self?


----------



## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> What process does one need to go through to fire ones self?


I tried a 45 one time...forgot the ammo. 

I'm still working on another idea..I'll let you know "if I succeed"


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> What process does one need to go through to fire ones self?



HEY! I can't fire me....I _*QUIT!*_


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Does retiring count as firing yourself?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Does retiring count as firing yourself?


you arent out yet wg!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

3 more weeks Scott. As soon as things get finalized this week, I'll let you know the business details.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> 3 more weeks Scott. As soon as things get finalized this week, I'll let you know the business details.


pm me, I'd like to hear what you are up to


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Let's shift focus. I agree wholeheartedly that if a painting franchise is not providing systems for support, national advertising and brand recognition, clear cut administrative systems as well as technician stuff involving actually holding a paintbrush, it is not a good franchise. I'd like to hear more from the Fresh Coat guys.
> 
> What are you getting/have you gotten from corporate?


Pressure: Go to #86 post of this thread by Calist and click on the hyperlink: Accidental "something". I think that thread describes what fc is about. If you've got any other specific questions, I will try to answer but - like I said several times - I am not a rep of the franchise. I am an independent owner (sort of).


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## T200 (Nov 11, 2007)

The best thing about a painting franchise: Getting out.

http://www.certaprosucks.org
http://www.painting-franchise.net


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Great links T200!


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> wow I think I just read a book...


I feel like that every time I read one of LC's post. And like most books I skim through it and dont remember anything I read.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

T200 said:


> The best thing about a painting franchise: Getting out.


   

( 4 Eeks is a term I coined, known as a "Fourker". 5 Eeks is the the highest Eek rating, but 4 Eeks is traditionally used as the highest rating instead because of it's phonetic similarity to another cultural trump card. )

All I can say is....Uhhh. *Scary.*

**********

This part I find particularly interesting:
"The following is excerpted from a 1995 study byTimothy Bates, a professor at Wayne State University, who studied Census Bureau data on 20,000 new enterprises and found that 38 percent of franchises failed within four years of opening their doors, vs. 32 percent of independent start-ups that went belly-up. "​and this part:
*"Don't Have Any Painting Experience? No Problem.*

*False: *Knowing how to prep. surfaces is critical. Knowing what paint to apply is critical. Make a mistake, and it could cost you thousands of dollars--not to mention a very disgruntled customer.

Be prepared to learn "on the job", and it may be expensive.
Most people believe there's little involved with painting--you just brush on the paint. Far from it; there's more involved with painting than you may realize."

​( I guess now we know the truth why certain franchise corporations PREFER their franchisees have NO EXPERIENCE )


And this part:
*What if my area has pages and pages of painters in the phone book?*
That is good. This means you have a very strong market with a lot of demand. Remember, you are taking market share from your competition when you begin your franchise. The more fragmentation that exists, the more opportunity for you.. Why not go into that "fragmented market", recruit an _experienced_ painter, and sell him a franchise? My guess: Experienced painters might seriously doubt CertaPro's claims (such as revenue of "a million dollars or more" within 3 years).

​****************

So let me see if I understand this correctly. It is typical for these types of franchise corporations to be in the business of bankrupting their franchisees. It really makes no difference to them, they make money either way. They make money from their "successful" franchisees. And they make as much money as possible from their unsuccessful franchisees, before they go belly up. 

Their own stated goal is to *TAKE MARKET SHARE* from a strong and healthy market of established experienced painters. So essentially they understand that a few of their franchises will be "successful", and most will fail, and with that combination they will go into an existing market and extract as MUCH revenue as possible from the market.

And the whole time they are doing this, the corporate heads really could give a RAT'S ASS about the quality of the work and services that are being performed for the customer.

So essentially they are promoting and profiting from a system they designed that goes into an existing market, takes work away from experienced, established painters who are in a position to provide a MUCH BETTER/HIGHER QUALITY SERVICE/VALUE TO THE CUSTOMERS IN THAT COMMUNITY, and transfers the work to their inexperienced franchisees so the franchise heads can now have a structure from which to draw a percentage from.

   


**********


T200, thank you for taking the time to post these valuable links.


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## T200 (Nov 11, 2007)

Yeah, Last Craftsman, it is, in my opinion, it's a racket in which the franchisor doesn't really have to give a rat's ass whether the franchisee fails or not. 

As you said, if the franchisor succeeds, they get some good royalty revenue. If the franchisee fails, they go after him/her for remaining royalty ($100,000, $150,000, $200,000) on the franchise agreement or whatever they can get, then resell the franchise.

Franchisees can't do commercial painting (only "light commercial", like business offices). If they want to do commercial, they have to become CertaPro "certified" (pay about $6,000 and attend another one-week class).

Oh, and when the franchisee folds, they have the failed franchisee sign a non-disclosure agreement in which the franchisee swears to never publicly say anything negative about CertaPro. That's why you probably won't find any negative comments on the web (or anywhere) from failed CertaPro franchisees.

Minimum 1st year sales: $235,000
or pay the minimum royalty for that amount
 (5% = $11,750 + 3% advertising = $7,050)
Minimum 2nd year sales: $400,000
or pay the minimum royalty for that amount
Add $100,000 per year after second year.
or pay the minimum royalty for that amount

I think they say they've got about 300 franchisees.
Even looking at the minimum franchise fee:
300 franchisees X $11,750 = $3.5 million+
But they do have some heavy hitters doing $1 mil, $5 mil per year.
CertaPro's gross revenues 2007: ~$26.5 mil.
Not bad.

All this production is supposed to come from a guy who used to be an accountant or engineer or window salesman and who gets a few days of "hands on" painting experience and may have never run a business, let alone a painting business.

When the franchisee folds and they resell the franchise to some other chump and repeat as necessary. Some franchises may have been sold 7 or 8 times.

Everybody's in on the game. Franchise consultants (such as FranChoice) get as much as 50% ($20,000) of the franchise fee ($40,000) for referring people. I suspect the franchise salesman gets $10,000-$14,000.

CertaPro charges about $9,500 for "computer and proprietary software system", and CertaPro hauls in about $2 million a year just from "license fees" from "approved vendors" that franchisees are supposed to buy their stuff from (business cards, stationary, mailing, etc).

The guys in the corporate office who work with the franchisees? Many of them may not have any significant painting experience (running a painting company) either. They might have formerly worked in a bicycle shop or sold software or computers or worked for McDonalds.

CertaPro used to promote hiring painters direct. Now they recommend hiring subcontractors (lower costs that way). 

And they market using phrases like, "Painting with certainty".


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## Woody (Jan 7, 2010)

...... Dairy Queen is a franchise...maybe we could sell ice-cream for 500K down(franchise fee), plus property, and don't forget about "that monthly payment"

Franchises "suck eggs"...... 


I'll bet.. There isn't ONE guy/gal on these boards, who has been in a Franchise...and been in business OVER 8 years ?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

T200 said:


> Yeah, Last Craftsman, it is, in my opinion, it's a racket in which the franchisor doesn't really have to give a rat's ass whether the franchisee fails or not.
> 
> As you said, if the franchisor succeeds, they get some good royalty revenue. If the franchisee fails, they go after him/her for remaining royalty ($100,000, $150,000, $200,000) on the franchise agreement or whatever they can get, then resell the franchise.
> 
> ...


I got no love for Certa "pro"

End of '08 these pricks moved into my NC territory by undercutting us by thousands per job. 

Of course, i'd get the call from the GC to "fix" their work when all attempts at contacting them for warranty issues would fail. 

Eventually I stopped answering calls from the GC for this type of thing. Told them "if you hired us instead of these clowns you wouldn't have this problem".


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Rcon said:


> I got no love for Certa "pro"
> 
> End of '08 these pricks moved into my NC territory by undercutting us by thousands per job.
> 
> ...


My experience has been that they tend to bid the job for what they think it will sell for, not for the right value of time. They think that volume in sales will make up for low to no margins. Slippery slope.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

This was a very interesting thread to read from start to finish. I actually read through it after someone said "and then there was an awkward pause" on my introductions thread after I stated that I worked for CertaPro Painters.

I decided to do a search and see why 

I'll try to shed a little more light on the subject as I may have the most experience with some of these franchise companies than anyone else in here.

Personally I hate the idea of a franchised painting business that markets to people that have not painted before, ESPECIALLY students. ( On that note College Pro Painters are owned by the same company as CertaPro Painters, The Franchise Company ) Within my first summer of painting as a student I hated the lack of training I recieved as well as the care that some people that I worked with. 

A little background information, I was one of the idiots that got roped into the student painting franchise BS. It was actually fairly legitimate compared to some of the other companies, they were approved by the university to put up a stand, and held interviews in the university offices and such, and fully disclosed all of the negative possibilities of running the business. Reading online it seems like a lot of people get tricked into signing forms they do not understand, but personally I had everything thoroughly explained to me and I understood all of the risks.

I started marketing in my area ( University Heights ) it was full of student rental units, as well as a few scattered family homes and professors, but it was drowned with student housing so you can guess how well my marketing went. Cold calling was the main way to get leads, knocking on doors in the cold ( -45 C ). You could also draw leads from the Telemarketing agents that they provide, at a cost of $40 per estimate completed. I had many estimates that were around the $200 mark for a few windows and a door. About half of these leads I called had no idea who I was and told me not to call them again.

As I grew closer to the summer I was having an extremely hard time meeting the companies goals and was growing tired of the business model, as I started to realize how little I was able to book and what this franchise was going to cost me. I got very lucky however, before the summer started my franchisee approached me and offered for me to walk, scott free, if I was willing to give up my franchise to another trained franchisee that was waiting in the wings. I jumped on this since I didn't want to cough up roughly 20 grand in damages if everything went as badly as I had expected.

I worked for a successful franchisee for the summer following me leaving, and that is where I picked up most of my early painting experience. I mostly learned by trial and error, since the franchise manager spends most of his/her time doing estimates and doing crew moves. 

The following summer I needed a new job, and I made the decision to work for College Pro again, since my last summer had gone well. I was told to go work for a rookie manager, and I began doing things like training his new employees, half doing estimates for him, doing his painter interviews, I felt like I was running his business for him, then he wasn't returning my phone calls, and not giving me jobsites to go to. I eventually called the top returning manager and he had me working the next day. This franchisee that I left was out of business a month later.

This manager worked a college pro franchise for 5 years, and owned a house since his business had done well enough for him to enable him to do so. He also ran his business year round, which included interior work, so I was able to keep busy year round. I learned how to use a paint sprayer and this manager was very much hands on, he knew how to paint, which he had learned over time running his business and passed on what he did know to me, however i quickly outgrew his experience and was giving him pointers and fixing his mistakes.

The business structure is designed to be hands off for managers so it's expected that employees will outperform the franchisee.

That's it for my personal College Pro experience, I'll try to get back to the gritty stuff. I have a close friend that stayed with his franchise agreement for the summer.

His first paint job was for his parents and it was a total nightmare, he fired 2 employees and 2 quit, destroyed the gardens and could have been sued had it not been his parents house. College pro had put everyone through a one day how to paint seminar. This included how to hold a paint brush, we painted a board on a pallet, setup and climbed an extension ladder, then spent the rest of the day watching slides on surface prep and paint application procedures. Unfortunately that is where the training ends for most of the painters. I was fortunate enough to work for a returning manager that knew a thing or two about how to paint so I got a few tips and caught on quickly otherwise.

My friend just about lost his shirt that summer, learned a lot of life lessons, lost a few friends, but managed to eek out a few bucks profit for his extremely long hours through the summer.

Royalties of 35%ish once the marketing costs etc are included were the norm, and even after your royalty break of 75k where your royalty costs drop, they seem to keep thinking up new fees to charge you with anyways so you do not make more money off of the jobs you are running, but for these companies, it's a lot of money.

I would never work with or hire a company like this ever.... the lack of training and the taking advantage of students is terrible. There is a potential to make a profit, but it's rare, and a profit WORTH all the work is even more rare.

As far as CertaPro goes, I've had mostly positive experiences with so far. The 5 year College Pro manager I worked for purchased a CertaPro Franchise. He had years of hands on experience, and a couple of crews as well. The franchisee fees were much more reasonable, and the support offered by corporate CertaPro was far more impressive than we had ever seen with College Pro even though they were owned by the same company. Once you add the natianol marketing costs and such it's approximately 15% of the net margins that go to CertaPro as well as the initial investment required.

So far he has had his business for 4 years, and took over a dieing franchise next to his, after the previous owner pretty well burnt it to the ground. He purchased the franchise for 1 dollar, and took on the debt he owed to corporate CertaPro. This may have been the roughest step in his business so far, but he is still growing, and did close to a million dollars in revenue in his second year, and is still growing.

He mostly used employees, but in a recent conversation I learned that he now has converted all employees to subcontractors. Recently the local CertaPro franchise also converted many employees to piecerate/subcontracting agreements including myself. This is to help the franchisees control costs in a rought market i suppose.

The current franchise I am working for has been running for 14 years, and was bought by the current owner 10 years ago from his boss at the time. He was one of the top employees, and offered to buy the company when the previous owner decided to go into IT ( since the previous owner had no painting background and grew tired of the business ) The new owner is a certified journeyman painter, which in my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot for quality of work someone can do compared to someone who is not a journeyman like myself, but with a much better knowledge of the business I feel that he is able to run it much more effectively than a random person out to make a buck.

Last year this franchise did approximately 1.6 million in revenue and the owner made a tidy profit, even buying himself a new boat.

There are franchisees that run 20 million dollar businesses that don't know how to lift a brush, which makes my stomache churn a bit but they did at least something right. 

These franchises can make money, and the whole point is to make money right?...........



For years I have taken great pride in my work, and ran my own independent business for 2 years, and it wasn't even planned. I simply took on more and more jobs that came my way that started with friends and family, and the circle kept growing. Never spent a dime on marketing, customers sought me out after their friend gave them a raving review of me. Leaving this business behind was tough for me. 

Now that I am working as a subcontractor I make a fixed dollar amount per job, and with the way the market is, and the numbers I get I take it or someone else will. I still take pride in my work, and unfortunately suffer somewhat financially for it. It takes longer to do a damn good job than to get it done sloppy in and out as fast as possible. Many subcontractors are there simply to get the customer to sign off on the job and collect their check. I've personally spent 3 more days on a jobsite after the customer thought I was finished.

Call me crazy but that's what I call integrity. Was that customer thrilled? You bet.

Once again sorry if this was more of a life story, I tend to do that a lot, but my whole point is that these franchises can work, and I have personally seen many of the successful owners that run them. I have also seen the failures. 

My advice is to get your hands dirty, and learn as much about painting as you can, that way if you're operating these companies, you have much more control over problem solving major issues that can come up. I may not agree with everything my boss says, but at least he's got a foot to stand on rather than relying on some manual, or trying to BS his way through a major cost issue. The managers that have this experience seem to have slow steady growth, hire better, and overall are more successful.

Would I ever purchase a franchise? Probably not, I prefer to target high end customers that are out of reach most of the time for a company like CertaPro. I also tend to charge less than CertaPro does here in the cities I live in, but more than the average joes painting company as well, or at least I did in Calgary. I prefer to have the lower overhead of a smaller company and larger margins on fewer jobs, that the volume based cost controlling giant franchises that roll into town.

My 2 cents, or perhaps 12 in this case


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Just realized how long that was.....

Sorry


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## T200 (Nov 11, 2007)

BC_Painter said:


> Now that I am working as a subcontractor I make a fixed dollar amount per job, and with the way the market is, and the numbers I get I take it or someone else will. I still take pride in my work, and unfortunately suffer somewhat financially for it.


Anybody who takes pride in his work is a tremendous asset to the company and the customer...and has reason to be proud of himself.

Of course, that may not be the rule for others. I know of jobs that had to be redone because the subcontractor didn't care about the quality of the work.

To paraphrase Forrest Gump's mama, subcontractors are like a box of chocolates...

Now imagine a new franchisee who's never painted and never worked with painters, who has to produce a minimum of 5 or more jobs per week...and he's gonna have to find subcontractors to do the work. 




> ...my whole point is that these franchises can work, and I have personally seen many of the successful owners that run them. I have also seen the failures.


CertaPro touts several success stories--there are several multi-million dollar franchises, including San Fran, Indy, Tampa, and probably a few others. Some of them own multiple territories. Some of them do commercial work (which most new franchisees don't--and can't). They've had years to get to that size.

Success can depend on a number of factors: Knowledge of the business, the local market and how competitive it is, whether or not you can find decent painters, the effectiveness of your marketing, how much capital you have available, whether or not you need to draw money from the business in the first few years, even the weather.

I happen to believe CertaPro's marketing lures the unwitting into a business they may not prepared for (accountants, engineers, salesmen, desk jockeys of all sorts), dangling the promise of a million-dollar company in front of them, telling them they don't have to paint, and many of them end up failing. And when they fail, it can feasibly cost them $100,000 or more. 

I know of one ex-franchisee who had to move in with his parents because he was broke. There are numerous others who have taken out loans or second mortgages only to watch the business sink and their life savings disappear. I've heard of a franchise being resold several times (with no "winners").

Here's the big problem with it, IMHO: It's a ten-year franchise agreement with a fixed minimum royalty for all ten years. Whether the business succeeds or fails, the franchisee is contractually responsible for minimum franchise payments for the entire ten years.

Would you buy a car you've never driven and agree to make payments on it for ten years, even if it stops running and all the wheels fall off?

I imagine there are quite a few franchisees who aren't making any money, or struggling, but they simply can't walk away from a business they've got $150,00 or more invested in (possibly their entire savings and debt).

It's reported 80% to 90% of all new businesses fail within five years, depending on the source. I have to doubt that it's any different for CertaPro. 

The franchisor has nothing to lose; the franchisee can lose everything.
And some do.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

BC_Painter said:


> Just realized how long that was.....
> 
> Sorry


It's all good man. You sound like a guy with a good head on his shoulders and no one here is going to hold who you work for against you - you do what you can to survive in these times. Just don't let their 'work ethic' rub off on you and you'll do fine. 

On a side note, I happen to know your bosses personally. One of them I like and one I really don't. I've had a couple of their guys work for me in the past as well - all I can really say is that I wasn't too impressed with at least one of them for reasons I wouldn't get into on a public forum. 

Anyhow, i'd be happy to discuss more in PM when you have that capability. 

Cheers :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

BC Painter, Excellent perspective from a guy on the inside! That was one of the more interesting posts I've ever read on this forum, especially in light of all the controversy surrounding franchises lately. 

Thanks


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

CApainter said:


> BC Painter, Excellent perspective from a guy on the inside! That was one of the more interesting posts I've ever read on this forum, especially in light of all the controversy surrounding franchises lately.
> 
> Thanks


:yes::yes:
I know you are in Canada, so the rules on subcontracting are different, are you truly a sub?
You provide your own insurance,license , uniform, tools, dictate process and time?
Or can "anyone" be a sub?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

RCP said:


> :yes::yes:
> I know you are in Canada, so the rules on subcontracting are different, are you truly a sub?
> You provide your own insurance,license , uniform, tools, dictate process and time?
> Or can "anyone" be a sub?


CP subs are not real subs. 

Their insurance and WCB are supplied by CP and they pay a percentage for their coverage out of their contract. They are required to wear CP logoed gear and CP provides equipment. 

They are robbed blind on what they're paid to perform the work. 

How do I know this? I've employed 2 former CP painters and 1 former CP sub.


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

Rcon said:


> CP subs are not real subs.
> 
> Their insurance and WCB are supplied by CP and they pay a percentage for their coverage out of their contract. They are required to wear CP logoed gear and CP provides equipment.
> 
> ...


Doesnt need their own equipment, insurance, license, or even clothes. Sounds alot like an employee to me.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

capitalcity painting said:


> Doesnt need their own equipment, insurance, license, or even clothes. Sounds alot like an employee to me.


Basically. CP does it so they can have the work done for the least amount possible with no possibility of it costing them a cent more than they contracted with their sub. 

Of course, this is why much of their work is so shoddy. When they're getting paid $1200 to do a job that CP contracts for $7500 the do it as fast as possible and take as many shortcuts as they can so they will at least earn $10/hr. Of course i'm not saying_ all _their guys do shoddy work but that is perdominantly the case. 

I recall an exterior job I lost to CP 2 summers ago. I don't know what they got it for but I quoted 10G. I was working on an interior across the street when they started - 2 guys got out there with rollers and hammered all the fascia with them, gunning all the overhanging shingles in the process. They fired 2 coats on the frames but didn't prep 1. When I finished the house I was working on I got called over to finish all the jambs which were not touched, to do the overhead door which was not touched, and to do the front door which again was not touched. 

That wasn't the only job (in that neighborhood alone) I got called in to fix up after their subs left. 

BTW this isn't aimed at you BC_Painter and i'm not saying you'd work like this, it's just my experience with them is all.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Rcon said:


> 2 guys got out there with rollers and hammered all the fascia with them, gunning all the overhanging shingles in the process. They fired 2 coats on the frames but didn't prep 1. When I finished the house I was working on I got called over to finish all the jambs which were not touched, to do the overhead door which was not touched, and to do the front door which again was not touched.
> 
> That wasn't the only job (in that neighborhood alone) I got called in to fix up after their subs left.


This is the reality of any model where the structure is set up like this.

The more people taking a cut, the harder it is for everyone to make a living. Clearly the first place this is going to show is the work is going to suffer.

But again the franchise corporations don't give a rat's ass, because they make their money regardless of whether the franchisee fails or not.They saturate the market with desperate people, and that is the result.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Yeah I know of a few bad stories with subs, and unfortunately the system rewards shoddy work.

One thing however I do provide my own equipment and I have liability insurance. ( Any sub, no matter what should have this in case something happens and CertaPro's insurance company goes after you after you sign the form saying that you're responsible for any losses on the job, haha )

I have the option of using wither my own, or CertaPro's WCB since I am a one man operation ( I know this from my experience in Calgary ) so I am opting to use CertaPro's since it will cost me far less. As soon as I start doing anything outside of CertsPro again as well I will be setting up my own WCB account again, takes 5 minutes anyways 

I get to set all of my own hours as well, as long as I am working within the customers needs, which I would do anyways.

I do have to wear CertaPro garb (I'm not allowed to advertise my own business on theire sites, I already got nailed for an old toque )

Oh I am responsible for all materials on my jobs as well. 

There are a few different subcontractor relationships with this company, I prefer this one to the others, like the one described above this post ( I can't imagine getting paid 1200 to paint a 7500 job, I'd walk off. )


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

wow that's a lot of reading will there be a quiz?


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

MIGHT be a pop quiz on friday ** hint hint **


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Gonna have to study now .........


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

What do you guys make of the article in the last PWC on franchising? I took it as essentially an endorsement of the franchise model by PWC, although they do outline some common pitfalls to watch for.

Interestingly, in their list of national pain franchises, they do not mention certa, although both cf and 5star are mentioned.


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## T200 (Nov 11, 2007)

y.painting said:


> What do you guys make of the article in the last PWC on franchising? I took it as essentially an endorsement of the franchise model by PWC, although they do outline some common pitfalls to watch for.


The article:
http://www.pwc-magazine.com/archive...7eced1a26-E6B8604B-E868-0476-AE2A032D92CB3582

I've seen numerous similar articles: Quotes from a few people, often including the _franchise owners_ (like they will be objective). It's a shallow article--fluff -- although unlike most it does at least mention the possibility of failure.

I disagree with this:
_Buyers of franchises get a “giant safety net"_ (says a franchise owner).
[They also get a huge debt obligation in the form of franchise fees.]

and this seems to be a common selling point:
_“To me, the advantage of a franchise is that it helps you run
a painting business, rather than just painting"_
(You must know about painting, not just how to run a company)

Then there's this:
_"Success stories like these can make a franchise seem pretty
attractive—and for good reason"_ (what's the "good reason"?)

Most articles like this include a "success story" or two.
What they don't include: Balance.
Where are comments from failed franchisees?
And here's what's missing: What are the franchise's success rates?



> Interestingly, in their list of national pain franchises, they do not mention certa, although both cf and 5star are mentioned.


Yeah, that's curious.


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