# Paint Cost Too High



## Jesse KY (Jun 23, 2011)

I recommend Sherwin Williams products to my customers almost every day. It seems to me that painting contractors across the nation are by far their best sales force. SW could never employ enough sales reps to even come close to the number of contractors out there. Lately its like they are the enemy. We have a price increase about 3x a year. I think there should be lower contractor prices. I also see residential customers walk in and open an account and their prices are pretty close to mine. They have declined to provide a price list that is good for a certain period of time. Any thoughts?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Support local small business' buy Ben Moore.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Jesse KY said:


> I recommend Sherwin Williams products to my customers almost every day. It seems to me that painting contractors across the nation are by far their best sales force. SW could never employ enough sales reps to even come close to the number of contractors out there. Lately its like they are the enemy. We have a price increase about 3x a year. I think there should be lower contractor prices. I also see residential customers walk in and open an account and their prices are pretty close to mine. They have declined to provide a price list that is good for a certain period of time. Any thoughts?


I wouldn't be too sure about that. Last time I heard, consumer sales were hefty...


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## Jesse KY (Jun 23, 2011)

Harry said:


> I wouldn't be too sure about that. Last time I heard, consumer sales were hefty...


 well everyday day year after year we purchase more than a typical homeowner that may paint their house or a room once a year. right?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Jesse KY said:


> well everyday day year after year we purchase more than a typical homeowner that may paint their house or a room once a year. right?


I don't know ...


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

You can always boycott them and spend extra time going to HD or some hardware store.


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

Never, BM to expensive and the product really isn't what it used to be


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

There are other options, depending on where you live. 

Are there other paint stores? BM, Diamond Vogel, Pratt & Lambert, PPG, Vista, other regional paints. 

My Dad always says, it don't hurt to shop around. SW isn't the only paint maker of quality.


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

Im with you jesse. SW doesnt want to work with contractors even tho we are basically their salesmen. I dont use the stuff and I recommend u do the same.


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## phildvr (May 24, 2011)

we are important to SW but they are catering more and more to the DIY customers. 
I noticed this week my SW Ext Super Paint Satin is $29 a gal


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

phildvr said:


> we are important to SW but they are catering more and more to the DIY customers.
> I noticed this week my SW Ext Super Paint Satin is $29 a gal


So what's the problem? Guys were paying near that 10 years ago. Should it be less still?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Why is everyone always crying about high paint costs? I just don't get it. It's not like its some additional tax or something. The Freaking customer pays for materials. 

Pat


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Why is everyone always crying about high paint costs? I just don't get it. It's not like its some additional tax or something. The Freaking customer pays for materials.
> 
> Pat


Exactly...

When everyone has to pay the extra, it's a moot point.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Yes they do Pat.They pay for everything.But where ever you can shave a little off your price to close the deal will make a difference.We all already know that the most prominent deciding factor in most HO's decisions is bottom line price. If my total price including paint is $2,500 & Jimmy the Painters price is $2,625 I think you know where they are going.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Jesse KY said:


> I recommend Sherwin Williams products to my customers almost every day. It seems to me that painting contractors across the nation are by far their best sales force. SW could never employ enough sales reps to even come close to the number of contractors out there. Lately its like they are the enemy. We have a price increase about 3x a year. I think there should be lower contractor prices. I also see residential customers walk in and open an account and their prices are pretty close to mine. They have declined to provide a price list that is good for a certain period of time. Any thoughts?


I actually received over $6,000 in credit back to my account a few months back because they increased our pricing with out notice.
I have them quote me my pricing once a year for the whole year. In order for me to bid projects properly I must have fixed costs.
My company has much lower prices than HO's and most other contractors in my area and I plan to keep it that way.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> If my total price including paint is $2,500 & Jimmy the Painters price is $2,625 I think you know where they are going.


In my experience if the price is only a difference of a few hundred dollars they typically will go with their gut feeling. The details of the proposal, how you presented yourself on the initial estimate. The follow up calls. You can really separate yourself this way. 

But I can see your point if your market is mostly from advertisement. They don't know that BM is better then glidden.

Pat


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> In my experience if the price is only a difference of a few hundred dollars they typically will go with their gut feeling. The details of the proposal, how you presented yourself on the initial estimate. The follow up calls. You can really separate yourself this way.
> 
> But I can see your point if your market is mostly from advertisement. They don't know that BM is better then glidden.
> 
> Pat


I think you would be surprised as to how many guys are doing the same thing you are and impressing them just like you are so now we are back to price


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Aaron is right IMHO,I use mostly BM but the cheapest price wins more often than the most expensive. if sw paint comparable to bm paint is a bit cheaper for same quality, then the sw contractor has the advantage. Now, we only need to hammer out which lines are equivalent in quality.


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## Estimator Dave (Jun 6, 2011)

Sure the customer pays for the paint...but if you're paying 10-20% more than you competition on the same gallon of paint, it will be hard to land a job. PS...the customer also pays for the labor and your overhead...doesn't mean you should pay your painters a million a year or buy them each a Mercedes to drive to the job site


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I dunno then.. lol . In my experience the cost of materials has made the lease amount of damage when it comes to loosing jobs. 

Pat


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> I think you would be surprised as to how many guys are doing the same thing you are and impressing them just like you are so now we are back to price


I think this is a pretty far reach saying most are equal in their presentation. Such small things can make a difference specially when we are only talking a few hundred dollars in difference.



Estimator Dave said:


> PS...the customer also pays for the labor and your overhead...doesn't mean you should pay your painters a million a year or buy them each a Mercedes to drive to the job site


Really have no clue what this has to do with the thread. We are talking about material costs. Labor and overhead is a completely separate issue and in my opinion this is where jobs are lost due to the vast difference between one company and another.

Pat


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> I dunno then.. lol . In my experience the cost of materials has made the lease amount of damage when it comes to loosing jobs.
> 
> Pat


 But it does (some) damage


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Pat,I never said most.I said many.

By that I mean those HO's that are eliminating the hack with a price on the back of a burger king receipt and are looking at the 2 guys that really presented themselves well,you are back to price.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> Pat,I never said most.I said many.
> 
> By that I mean those HO's that are eliminating the hack with a price on the back of a burger king receipt and are looking at the 2 guys that really presented themselves well,you are back to price.


I dunno about that. There's a fair amount getting jobs, and from their appearance, odor, rampant use of profanity, and obviously no wardrobe ....I wouldn't want them in my driveway let alone my house. Yet they still land jobs, and most are buying top shelf products. 

I'd take material cost out of the equation on residential jobs. Commercial work is totally different and material costs play a bigger role.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> I dunno about that. There's a fair amount getting jobs, and from their appearance, odor, rampant use of profanity, and obviously no wardrobe ....I wouldn't want them in my driveway let alone my house. Yet they still land jobs, and most are buying top shelf products.
> 
> I'd take material cost out of the equation on residential jobs. Commercial work is totally different and material costs play a bigger role.


I think you missed my point.I said those that have eliminated the hack from their possible choice.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess, but I just think there is a little more that plays into this or at least I hope so. lol. To me this is a service, we are not televisions or ipods where the products are exactly the same. So I really don't believe price is the issue when the customer is looking for a quality paint job. Now I know there are many that are strictly looking at price as the bottom line. I really try to stay away from those but its not possible to do this.

Anyway, I see your point and it makes sense.

Pat


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## DGideon (May 24, 2011)

Not only are the prices too high but the products are starting to suck as well. I have been sending my customers to Home Depot.


Jesse KY said:


> I recommend Sherwin Williams products to my customers almost every day. It seems to me that painting contractors across the nation are by far their best sales force. SW could never employ enough sales reps to even come close to the number of contractors out there. Lately its like they are the enemy. We have a price increase about 3x a year. I think there should be lower contractor prices. I also see residential customers walk in and open an account and their prices are pretty close to mine. They have declined to provide a price list that is good for a certain period of time. Any thoughts?


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> I dunno then.. lol . In my experience the cost of materials has made the lease amount of damage when it comes to loosing jobs.
> 
> Pat


I'll grant you that - actually, let's assume it makes no difference at all in the awarding of the job. Further, say you charge the same as the other guy/gal.

When your cost structure is higher by say $7 per gallon and you put 5000 gallons on the wall a year, that's 35K you're losing because "you don't care" about the cost of paint because the customer pays for it. I'd rather negotiate the hell out of my cost/gallon and take the 35.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DGideon said:


> Not only are the prices too high but the products are starting to suck as well. I have been sending my customers to Home Depot.


That's a great alternative. 


Totally need a sarcasm font


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

y.painting said:


> I'll grant you that - actually, let's assume it makes no difference at all in the awarding of the job. Further, say you charge the same as the other guy/gal.
> 
> When your cost structure is higher by say $7 per gallon and you put 5000 gallons on the wall a year, that's 35K you're losing because "you don't care" about the cost of paint because the customer pays for it. I'd rather negotiate the hell out of my cost/gallon and take the 35.



Well the way I do estimates is for example lets say my bid is $2545.00 and I'm going to use regal at $35.00 per gallon. I figured 8 gallons to do the job. Now if I negotiated a better price for the regal and now get it 10% less. My revised price would be $2517 which I would just round up to $2520. I'm not loosing any money for the year.

I don't put much energy or effort on fooling with materials when it comes to doing estimates. My focus is more into the company profit percentage

Just a note - I'm not a commercial painter and I only do a few NC a year. Most of my jobs are craftsman type houses where materials are low and labor is high.

Oat


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> I actually received over $6,000 in credit back to my account a few months back because they increased our pricing with out notice.
> I have them quote me my pricing once a year for the whole year. In order for me to bid projects properly I must have fixed costs.
> My company has much lower prices than HO's and most other contractors in my area and I plan to keep it that way.


Is that guaranteed pricing for the year? I haven't had that in 10 years. Is there a expiration date signed by the manufacture representative? If not, it not guaranteed, rather just a deal on a handshake. Just wondering cause I couldn't get that even at 300k+ a year

I'm not that concerned about price increases. I know my rep goes to bat for me, that's all I need. Besides prices get locked PER job account, so increases don't effect my current jobs, only future jobs.


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## Jesse KY (Jun 23, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> I dunno then.. lol . In my experience the cost of materials has made the lease amount of damage when it comes to loosing jobs.
> 
> Pat


 Its not all about loosing jobs for me. It normally doesnt affect the HOs decision. Its about where will it stop? SW will continue to raise prices unless people stop buying or really complain. 10 years from now will a gallon of premium paint be 100 bucks? I feel like they raied prices to compensate for less sales due to the economy.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is that guaranteed pricing for the year? I haven't had that in 10 years. Is there a expiration date signed by the manufacture representative? If not, it not guaranteed, rather just a deal on a handshake. Just wondering cause I couldn't get that even at 300k+ a year
> 
> I'm not that concerned about price increases. I know my rep goes to bat for me, that's all I need. Besides prices get locked PER job account, so increases don't effect my current jobs, only future jobs.


 signed & dated


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> signed & dated


Its hard for me to believe it's a year out, at least with SW, without some disclosure. Raw materials fluctuate to much, sometime they just can't absorb it. I don't think dealers even get that great of a document. But if you say so.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Jesse KY said:


> I feel like they raied prices to compensate for less sales due to the economy.


Thats what you're supposed to do. Thats smart business. :thumbsup: You all should do the same. You should raise your prices yearly, and as overhead changes.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Estimator Dave said:


> Sure the customer pays for the paint...but if you're paying 10-20% more than you competition on the same gallon of paint, it will be hard to land a job. PS...the customer also pays for the labor and your overhead...doesn't mean you should pay your painters a million a year or buy them each a Mercedes to drive to the job site


Please explain...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Jesse KY said:


> Its not all about loosing jobs for me. It normally doesnt affect the HOs decision. Its about where will it stop? SW will continue to raise prices unless people stop buying or really complain. 10 years from now will a gallon of premium paint be 100 bucks? I feel like they raied prices to compensate for less sales due to the economy.


I'd like to see a poll on how many customers were lost because paint went up...I'll almost bet this is a ridiculous notion...


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Do most painters have a product or line that they will not deviate from? I ask because I see many arguments about materials and costs and BM versus SW, etc. Materials are another source of profit for a business owner. Is it feasible to let the customer choose from within the same paint manufacturer's line? 

"This premium SW, low odor, washable paint used in your 3 bedrooms and hallway will run you $3,340 for the job. 

To save you some money, while still giving you a good quality paint, we can use the Dimension line, which should suit your needs fine in my experience and give you the ability to wash up fingerprints. That would be $2,980. A nice bonus is that they have great designer color charts to help you match your trim and accent walls. That should make all of our lives easier! ::smile and laugh::

You also mentioned budget concerns so I will also give you an option to use the SW economy line of paints. These aren't bad and we can make them look good, you would just have to sacrifice the scrub-a-bility you were looking for and some long term color retention. That would bring your job down to just under $2600.

Which way do you would think you would be leaning?

Note to business owners: Build your highest markup in the middle tier. That is what 95% of people are going to choose. No matter which they choose, you are locking out your competition by presenting a multi-choice close.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Do most painters have a product or line that they will not deviate from? I ask because I see many arguments about materials and costs and BM versus SW, etc. Materials are another source of profit for a business owner. Is it feasible to let the customer choose from within the same paint manufacturer's line?
> 
> "This premium SW, low odor, washable paint used in your 3 bedrooms and hallway will run you $3,340 for the job.
> 
> ...


Exactly...good, better, best.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Yes they do Pat.They pay for everything.But where ever you can shave a little off your price to close the deal will make a difference.We all already know that the most prominent deciding factor in most HO's decisions is bottom line price. If my total price including paint is $2,500 & Jimmy the Painters price is $2,625 I think you know where they are going.


Your assumption must be a Florida thing. I hear it so often from you guys down there. Every article, expert, study and bit of personal experience says the opposite is true. I have people show me bids for $800 and $1000 while they are signing the contract with me for $1,500. Nobody chooses a contractor based upon a price difference of 5% unless all else were identical and the painting is presented as a commodity. This is going to be extremely arrogant but I say it with confidence. Put me in there and I will beat you both and land the bid at $3000.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Why is everyone always crying about high paint costs? I just don't get it. It's not like its some additional tax or something. The Freaking customer pays for materials.
> 
> Pat


 
I like using SW products they cost far more then porter products, competition uses porter, customer doesnt know or care about the difference, I hope this clears things up for all you always wondering about why people complain about price increases


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Really I pay way more for Porter


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Durations im at 46 otd
porter is 35 for a similar product


what do you pay, just curios


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

what about portercept


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Not sure AAron I dont use much of their products, but i have a old sw sales rep that went to work for them and is always calling me and sending me price list, their 35degree exterior paint is what i was talking about.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

I guess we can all "feel" that the cost of paint is too high. We can "feel" that it should be lower...but I don't really think it will affect business or competitiveness...unless someone is stealing the stuff.

"A rising tide raises all ships"


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## LOSTinDETAILS (Jun 17, 2009)

Dave Mac said:


> Durations im at 46 otd
> porter is 35 for a similar product
> 
> 
> what do you pay, just curios


Permanizer=45
Acri-Shield=26
Speedhide=18


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## bwpainting (Jun 1, 2011)

Permanizer -32
Acri sheild - 20

What exactly is better about SW...advertising and branding?

IMO permanizer is a great product for stucco, its like elastomeric on steroids. All the good properties, doesn't chalk out.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

If you are losing alot of jobs over material costs, you are in a tough market or attracting a less than ideal demographic. 

Geesh, if you are going to lose jobs, lose them by thousands, not hundreds. Thats how I lose them. I WANT to lose the $5000 job by $2500 because it reminds me that my pricing is where it should be. Let the other three guys at $2500 figure out how to make a dollar.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> If you are losing alot of jobs over material costs, you are in a tough market or attracting a less than ideal demographic.
> 
> Geesh, if you are going to lose jobs, lose them by thousands, not hundreds. Thats how I lose them. I WANT to lose the $5000 job by $2500 because it reminds me that my pricing is where it should be. Let the other three guys at $2500 figure out how to make a dollar.


Post of the year!
:notworthy:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Dave Mac said:


> I like using SW products they cost far more then porter products, competition uses porter, customer doesnt know or care about the difference, I hope this clears things up for all you always wondering about why people complain about price increases



Then you are not doing your job explaining the difference between the two. Also its not to often where I run into a customer that does not care what brand of paint I use.

Pat


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Sorry, the customer doesn't pay for paint, I do


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> Sorry, the customer doesn't pay for paint, I do


Do they pay you back for it and stuff, er nah? It is generally accepted that the end user of a product pays for the product, even if through the service that installs it.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Do they pay you back for it and stuff, er nah? It is generally accepted that the end user of a product pays for the product, even if through the service that installs it.


What if it's buy one get one free? Is the free one really free?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Is it feasible to let the customer choose from within the same paint manufacturer's line?
> 
> "This premium SW, low odor, washable paint used in your 3 bedrooms and hallway will run you $3,340 for the job.
> 
> ...


You have a good point, but... The difference in price between the paint lines will not have that much deviation in overall price for most jobs. 

What does happen is by using the cheaper lines, it makes labor cost go up because the cheaper lines aren't as easy to work with. So, in effect, using the cheaper lines actually costs more.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> You have a good point, but... The difference in price between the paint lines will not have that much deviation in overall price for most jobs.
> 
> What does happen is by using the cheaper lines, it makes labor cost go up because the cheaper lines aren't as easy to work with. So, in effect, using the cheaper lines actually costs more.


Great post :thumbsup: 

Pat


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> If you are losing alot of jobs over material costs, you are in a tough market or attracting a less than ideal demographic.
> 
> Geesh, if you are going to lose jobs, lose them by thousands, not hundreds. Thats how I lose them. I WANT to lose the $5000 job by $2500 because it reminds me that my pricing is where it should be. Let the other three guys at $2500 figure out how to make a dollar.


Well...

You losing the job by $2,500 doesn't really say anything unless it's proven that your price is correct or the other price is wrong.

Naturally, more prices would probably help...

Now, in terms of losing jobs, why would it be better to lose them by thousands, than by hundreds???

My opinion is that if I lost by hundreds, it means that I'm playing with competition that is GOOD competition and those are the guys that I want bidding against me.

I surely don't want the guys who are half my price bidding against me...at least not all the time because that would mean that I'd have to change my market or hope my competition passes away, lol.

I see all the guys who cheered you on on this one and at first glance, I would have too...but after considerable thought I will stay with my opinion that it's better to lose a bid by a few bucks than to lose to a low baller who will always be way lower...forcing me to find a different venue.

Losing to someone who is half your price doesn't necessarily tell you anything. PROVING it does tell much...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Post of the year!
> :notworthy:


I don't see it at all...

If ya lose to such a large difference...odds are you have a low baller in your area. Nobody wants to bid against a lowballer, it only proves that bidding the job is futile...and causes you to waste your time and money.

Now...if your price is CLOSE to the other guy, you are playing on a level field. A level field is the best field to play in...


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Harry said:


> I don't see it at all...
> 
> If ya lose to such a large difference...odds are you have a low baller in your area. Nobody wants to bid against a lowballer, it only proves that bidding the job is futile...and causes you to waste your time and money.
> 
> Now...if your price is CLOSE to the other guy, you are playing on a level field. A level field is the best field to play in...


We all have a general market. But in reality we always don't get calls from this market, this lady who referred us to this lady who passed our card to someone else. Well this someone else is a guy who used to pick his painters from craigslist and still does. He just figured to get one more bid. So if you lost a bid by someone who quoted half your price then I would think you would be happy as you know you are on track and you just eliminated a customer who would have never been your customer in the first place. I think this is what he is saying.

Now if your lost all your bids this way then yea, your in trouble. 

Pat


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

You guys are the best, and really know your stuff lol

I live in the real world lol a certain percentage off all customers buy on price and you can still make a profit on them then yes I like to be careful with everything that effects real world estimating, including price of paint. 

Yes I can tout my chest and tell stories of many of my customers that say just do the work and bill me later or people that i know for a fact use only me and don't get other estimates. Majority of my business

But I also advertise a lot and most of these people buy on several things and weather you admit it to yourself or not price plays a factor in their decision, you chest beaters are funny that you think your above selling on price. you can bet your ass if they buy on my price I'm gonna make a profit. You guys keep telling yourself that 100% of your clients buy you because of your the best thing since slice bread keep living the dream. 

I have several hundred customers a year, we like to make a profit off of all types of clients. That includes ones that buy on price, if you cant figure out how to make a profit from these types of clients then I dint blame you for not wanting to work for them. 

Its all good I just feel we have some paint snobs around here someties ha ha as long as everybody is making a profit and a good living I say keep on doing what your doing, I know I am and love buisness good day all


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> You have a good point, but... The difference in price between the paint lines will not have that much deviation in overall price for most jobs.
> 
> What does happen is by using the cheaper lines, it makes labor cost go up because the cheaper lines aren't as easy to work with. So, in effect, using the cheaper lines actually costs more.


That's what I figured and is why I asked. 

The numbers themselves I just pulled from my azz and are not really relevant.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> If you are losing alot of jobs over material costs, you are in a tough market or attracting a less than ideal demographic.
> 
> Geesh, if you are going to lose jobs, lose them by thousands, not hundreds. Thats how I lose them. I WANT to lose the $5000 job by $2500 because it reminds me that my pricing is where it should be. Let the other three guys at $2500 figure out how to make a dollar.


 
scott if you loosing jobs by a certain amount is how you know your pricing is whear it should be your in big trouble my freind :jester:

Geesh I hope you were kidding ha ha


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Well...
> 
> You losing the job by $2,500 doesn't really say anything unless it's proven that your price is correct or the other price is wrong.
> 
> ...


My point, which I think the contractors who "cheered me on" already know was not to be influenced by competetive pricing to the point where you are trying to trim 10% off your materials (read: trim 10% off 15% of your job). I think that if a contractor is blaming material costs for losing jobs, it might mean that is the only one of his costs that he can figure out enough to blame. 

I am not surprised to see you go the other way on this one though!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> scott if you loosing jobs by a certain amount is how you know your pricing is whear it should be your in big trouble my freind :jester:
> 
> Geesh I hope you were kidding ha ha


llool dave


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> We all have a general market. But in reality we always don't get calls from this market, this lady who referred us to this lady who passed our card to someone else. Well this someone else is a guy who used to pick his painters from craigslist and still does. He just figured to get one more bid. So if you lost a bid by someone who quoted half your price then I would think you would be happy as you know you are on track and you just eliminated a customer who would have never been your customer in the first place. I think this is what he is saying.
> 
> Now if your lost all your bids this way then yea, your in trouble.
> 
> Pat


Pretty much. 

If you choose not to compete on price, meaning you dont want to enter the race to be the lowest price, you might be a paint snob. lol


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> I don't see it at all...
> 
> If ya lose to such a large difference...odds are you have a low baller in your area. Nobody wants to bid against a lowballer, it only proves that bidding the job is futile...and causes you to waste your time and money.
> 
> Now...if your price is CLOSE to the other guy, you are playing on a level field. *A level field is the best field to play in*...


Harry

I dont expect you to be fully in tune with what residential contractors are talking about on all threads, so I can see where you may not agree with or get some of the discussions. 

A level field is the best field to play in, if you are bidding against contractors that are similarly priced and run legitimate business models. Unfortunately, when homeowners do the old 3 estimate deal on small projects (under $5k), you will be bidding against some odd ducks. 

The point is to not worry about that, price based on your costs and let the chips fall where they may. When the customer reports back that we were several thousand higher than the next bidder, I know what happened. To try to compete with that would be a waste of time.

I believe you are smart enough to understand this. (Please acknowledge so Dave will know what to think too )


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

As long as I make a what I want to make off the job I dint care if I'm the lowest or highest, What I see in todays market in my area is people get so many estimates, most of which are very close, then they decide to go with the guy they like the best. This is the majority of what I see,from advertising leads,in the repaint residential market.

I also see a lot of customers call and say I have a price for 1700 to paint the outside of my house can you beat it, now this I want nothing to do with,this is a low ball shopper.

To me a price shopper wants a competitive bid, but also want someone that they are comfortable with.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I believe you are smart enough to understand this. (Please acknowledge so Dave will know what to think too)


 
I learned not to mess with a pro pot shottter such as yourself, I could never match your witt or your personal attacks:notworthy: and if i tried I would get to pissed off lol 

shame souch talent being waisted, :jester:

the thing i think is as long as my job reports and budgets come in whear i estimated them i dont give a rats azz whear my price was compared to the other guys,


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> I learned not to mess with a pro pot shottter such as yourself, I could never match your witt or your personal attacks:notworthy: and if i tried I would get to pissed off lol
> 
> shame souch talent being waisted, :jester:


Sorry Dave their was suppose to be a :jester: in their.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Sorry Dave their was suppose to be a :jester: in their.


 
a simple thanks would of been good enough hint hint


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> I dont expect you to be fully in tune with what residential contractors are talking about on all threads, so I can see where you may not agree with or get some of the discussions.
> 
> ...


I think he is out of touch with what kind of market we understood in your post you are aiming for.

Coming form the commercial side where the winning bid is someone who missed something, I can understand why. From my brief, but informative dabbling in commercial finishing I just can't see bidding to break even in hopes that markups at really high rates after you are on the job being the way I want to do business.

I guess that is why Harry could relate to the $69 room guy so well.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> That's what I figured and is why I asked.
> 
> The numbers themselves I just pulled from my azz and are not really relevant.


I do think your idea of giving the customer options and choices is valid and has merit!

For one, the customers response to the options may give important information as to their expectations and goals for the project. You can then hopefully communicate to them that you understand that and can provide it for them. This clicking of the minds, I believe, has sold many jobs for me through the years. 

The customer feels empowered and they can tell you understand what they want and they like that, you have a clear understanding of what they want, and you can price it in a profitable way. There is little miscommunication as a result, and they are most always satisfied with the results because of it.

As for using the price differences of paint lines, sometimes that may work, other times it won't. But I think the principle underlying your suggestion is effective and yields results for sure.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I live in the Magic Kingdom. Nothing matters in my bids. Not my labor cost, not my material cost, not my presentation, not my


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> I dont expect you to be fully in tune with what residential contractors are talking about on all threads, so I can see where you may not agree with or get some of the discussions.
> 
> ...


let me begin by stating that if you make a post that I disagree with, I'll probably post my opinion and when I do post, it's usually from an educated opinion...I'm not posting just to post.

I do have experience in the residential sector and still feel the same in regards to my posts.

Bottom line is...if you're bidding on price ya need to learn how to separate yourself from your competition.

It sure is a hell of a lot easier to separate yourself from your competition when numbers are closer because like some have posted...today's economy and low prices are very hard to refuse.

And if 50 people agree with you, that's fine. I happen to think otherwise and well, if we all agreed, it would be boring as hell.

Just realize that you and I made a Gentleman's agreement to not get personal. Stating things like I may not realize what's going on here is a jab, IMO.

So, what do you say? Let's keep it 100% non personal?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Harry said:


> Stating things like I may not realize what's going on here is a jab, IMO.


I think he is just stating his personal opinion, and its based off his education. I don't think he just posts to post.

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> let me begin by stating that if you make a post that I disagree with, I'll probably post my opinion and when I do post, it's usually from an educated opinion...I'm not posting just to post.
> 
> I do have experience in the residential sector and still feel the same in regards to my posts.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, Harry! It was nothing personal, pointing out that you were a commercial estimator. 

ps...I think part of our agreement should be no posting after midnight!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Sounds good, Harry! It was nothing personal, pointing out that you were a commercial estimator.
> 
> ps...I think part of our agreement should be no posting after midnight!


Gross...you guys just forum kissed.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

:lol:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Sounds good, Harry! It was nothing personal, pointing out that you were a commercial estimator.
> 
> ps...I think part of our agreement should be no posting after midnight!


Scott, I have done a lot of residential painting and estimating and still do residential estimating...I have no clue where you got that idea. But now that I just told you that I am quite versed in residential work and estimating, we shouldn't have THAT confusion any more 

I respect your opinions, I just don't agree with some of them. I think the purpose of this board is to communicate our differences in a civil and respectful way. How boring it would be for everyone to agree on everything.

You wrote...

"I WANT to lose the $5000 job by $2500 because it reminds me that my pricing is where it should be. Let the other three guys at $2500 figure out how to make a dollar."

I can see the sentiment in your paragraph...with you meaning to assume that the other three guys were all too low. If that's the case, then of course, I agree.

But also, my feeling is that..losing a job for a few bucks vs a lot of money...means that the competition is on the same page as you...and that means...that you have a level playing field. It means that they know how to price as good as you...which is a good thing.

Now, if you lose to the guy at $2,500, it means that he's a low baller or he made a mistake. If he's a low baller, he's in town and he's taking a customer away. But not only that, he's spreading his prices around which may set a lousy trend. And even if he goes away, the next one comes.

Our ultimate goal or wish should be to lose to a reputable player...not a low baller.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Harry, Scott, you guys are suppose to be in truce mode, I suggest you guys not take each others posts to heart. I am not saying anyone is in the wrong here I just think I am seeing the beginning of what I have seen in other threads lately and feel that it can be nipped right here rather turning into a multiple page issue.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Harry, Scott, you guys are suppose to be in truce mode, I suggest you guys not take each others posts to heart. I am not saying anyone is in the wrong here I just think I am seeing the beginning of what I have seen in other threads lately and feel that it can be nipped right here rather turning into a multiple page issue.


Workaholic, you're not seeing anything. Things are fine.

Start a great thread so we can all join in...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Good point Sean


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

The real victim here is Jesse KY


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

A lot of folks are talking about paint prices per gallon as they relate to an individual job and get all sentimental about it - that's ridiculous! The difference in a job price - solely based on material pricing variability between two otherwise comparable companies - is negligible to make any significant difference in the awarding of the job.

I think the correct approach is to look at yearly averages - average sale, average gallons per year, average price. The reality is that yes - the customer pays for the paint. No s....Sherlock! But you are also leaving money on the table when you don't negotiate your price per gallon! 

If for jobs that, on average are priced similarly by both your company and Smith's Painting Company, Smith's Painting Company has an average cost structure per gallon $10 less than yours - you're leaving money on the table! If both your company and Smith's each put up on average 5000 gallons on the wall a year at a similar average job price, you're leaving 50K on the table compared to Smith. You're leaving 50K that you could have negotiated for with an easy 30 minute meeting with your rep. It's an easy win!

PS - please note that the above example assumes comparisons between two similar companies ie "apples to apples".


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

y.painting said:


> A lot of folks are talking about paint prices per gallon as they relate to an individual job and get all sentimental about it - that's ridiculous! The difference in a job price - solely based on material pricing variability between two otherwise comparable companies - is negligible to make any significant difference in the awarding of the job.
> 
> I think the correct approach is to look at yearly averages - average sale, average gallons per year, average price. The reality is that yes - the customer pays for the paint. No s....Sherlock! But you are also leaving money on the table when you don't negotiate your price per gallon!
> 
> ...


Hate to tell ya but Smith reduced his material cushion to beat you out of that job. You don't have it, you padded your price and now Smith has been awarded the job.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Harry said:


> Hate to tell ya but Smith reduced his material cushion to beat you out of that job. You don't have it, you padded your price and now Smith has been awarded the job.


Average residential repaint hovers around 15 gallons per project, not enough to make a significant enough dent in price to affect your award averages.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

y.painting said:


> Average residential repaint hovers around 15 gallons per project, not enough to make a significant enough dent in price to affect your award averages.


I'm just throwing the monkey wrench here.

But if you had 15 gallons and there was a $5 per gallon difference, plus markups, you could be talking about $7 or $8 per gallon times 15 gallons.
That would be $105 to $120 difference.

Say the job was $3,000...that would be 3.5% to 4% ?

Seems very possible to me...


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

anybody here do a 15 gallon residential repaint for 3k?

seems kinda low to me (like around 1/2 price) and i am pretty cheap

no offense harry-just a thought- you been at this longer than me


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> anybody here do a 15 gallon residential repaint for 3k?
> 
> seems kinda low to me (like around 1/2 price) and i am pretty cheap
> 
> no offense harry-just a thought- you been at this longer than me


I guess it depends on what you're painting and even if you doubled the job price to $6,000 and used a percentage of 1.75% to 2%...it's possible to lose a job because of the difference.

Not only that but I'm betting that beating on the suppliers can gain MORE than the $5 per gallon that I used in my example sometimes.

Bottom line is...unless you can document every job with hard facts about who won or lost and by what percentage, etc...it remains a possibility.

BTW, I run into plenty of guys who are still bidding with that $100 a gallon mentality, lol.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Harry said:


> Workaholic, you're not seeing anything. Things are fine.
> 
> Start a great thread so we can all join in...


See how it works? I could of immediately responded but instead I chose not to. Try it.


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## Jtpaintalot (May 4, 2011)

Ya I agree here in Bc Canada Benmoore won't slice any deals either so I try not to support them but they have a few products like aura that Cloverdale and Gp can't compete with!


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Harry said:


> Now, if you lose to the guy at $2,500, it means that he's a low baller or he made a mistake. If he's a low baller, he's in town and he's taking a customer away. But not only that, he's spreading his prices around which may set a lousy trend. And even if he goes away, the next one comes.


Unless I am missing something, there is no solution to this problem other than to ignore Mr. LB, continue to bid the way you do and work with customers that appreciate quality work at a fair price.

If we lose a bid due to a 5% price difference, it wasn't the paint cost to blame, it was our ability to sell ourselves and close the deal.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

WarlinePainting said:


> Unless I am missing something, there is no solution to this problem other than to ignore Mr. LB, continue to bid the way you do and work with customers that appreciate quality work at a fair price.
> 
> If we lose a bid due to a 5% price difference, it wasn't the paint cost to blame, it was our ability to sell ourselves and close the deal.


Yes, you're right most of the time...except when all is even and it comes down to price. As I said, I'm just throwing in the monkey wrench here because most of the posts here, including yours and mine are based on some sort of opinion.

But in the end...when there are apple to apple comparisons, math prevails.
If you and I deliver the same speech to the homeowner, have identical scopes and are liked equally, etc... the only thing to go on is price...and IF your price is lower by2 %, you're going to win the job...

And yeah, I realize that there are so many variables, I just work with numbers all day and it's fun to throw in the monkey wrench as I stated...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

WarlinePainting said:


> Unless I am missing something, there is no solution to this problem other than to ignore Mr. LB, continue to bid the way you do and work with customers that appreciate quality work at a fair price.
> 
> If we lose a bid due to a 5% price difference, it wasn't the paint cost to blame, it was our ability to sell ourselves and close the deal.


Yes, bid as usual but don't ignore...acknowledge and try to educate...


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Harry said:


> acknowledge and try to educate...


All I do, all day long.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

WarlinePainting said:


> All I do, all day long.


And didn't I just read something you just wrote along those lines?:whistling2:


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Harry said:


> But in the end...when there are apple to apple comparisons, math prevails.
> If you and I deliver the same speech to the homeowner, have identical scopes and are liked equally, etc... the only thing to go on is price...and IF your price is lower by2 %, you're going to win the job...


Its a good thing then Harry that you and I live in different countries. 
Mind you, I agree with you and would love a level playing field and a generally higher standard than what I currently see. It makes everybody up their game and everybody that's any good benefits.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Harry said:


> I'm just throwing the monkey wrench here.
> 
> But if you had 15 gallons and there was a $5 per gallon difference, plus markups, you could be talking about $7 or $8 per gallon times 15 gallons.
> That would be $105 to $120 difference.
> ...


If a customer chooses another company over a measley $120 then you didn't sell yourself very well at the estimate. 


Just MY opinion :rockon:

Edit: just noticed warline beat me to it...


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

When its apples to apples, I see that is comes down to trust. People will go with who they are the most comfortable with. Particularly for interior work.
Doesn't even need to be a2a- so part of that educating the client is showing trustworthiness. And presentation , timeliness, courtesy all play into that.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Everyone seems to assume that even with only a $120 difference in price somehow the other painter is an unworthy and lesser painter than they are. That is often not the case. They may even be a better painter/salesman/etc.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> See how it works? I could of immediately responded but instead I chose not to. Try it.


Monkey wrenches are best thrown early and often.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

WarlinePainting said:


> Its a good thing then Harry that you and I live in different countries.
> Mind you, I agree with you and would love a level playing field and a generally higher standard than what I currently see. It makes everybody up their game and everybody that's any good benefits.


Exactly!
Do you realize that when my grandfather was painting, things were small...meaning, he'd have breakfast with his competition?

Many times, my grandfather's competition would tell me to say hi to him, etc. They competed on the same jobs but they knew damn well that each other's price was close to theirs unless one of them screwed up.

They used to discuss pricing in coffee shops!

Today, that would probably border on collusion, lol.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

I guess my final point is that I realize that others are calling $120 difference measly and negligible and I DO AGREE for the most part.

But the fact remains...that by receiving deep discounts and APPLYING them, we CAN POSSIBLY win more jobs...ESPECIALLY in today's economy.

That's all I was saying...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Why does everyone always want to "beat up" the supplier for a better price? I don't get it? What kind of markup do you all think we have? 100%....200%? Do you think the stuff is free, and we just roll around in profit all day? 

Why not focus on efficiency? Labor costs are your biggest overhead, trim the fat off of there. Anybody that wants to respond that they're as efficient as possible is simply full of crap. JP spends countless hours on this, maybe one of the top guys here on the subject, and he's still not there yet.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Why does everyone always want to "beat up" the supplier for a better price? I don't get it? What kind of markup do you all think we have? 100%....200%? Do you think the stuff is free, and we just roll around in profit all day?
> 
> Why not focus on efficiency? Labor costs are your biggest overhead, trim the fat off of there. Anybody that wants to respond that they're as efficient as possible is simply full of crap. JP spends countless hours on this, maybe one of the top guys here on the subject, and he's still not there yet.


Easiest, most obvious target. What are they gonna do, call the IRS and negotiate their payroll tax rate? 

Everybody knows the manufacturers and suppliers are making too much :jester:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Everybody knows the manufacturers and suppliers are making too much :jester:


Yeah tell me about it. Just bought a new Bentley, and had to settle on a used Lear Jet to fly me to my private island in the Caribbean. 

Seriously though, years ago the Guy I painted for used to give guys a bonus and a raise if they simply quit smoking. The amount of time wasted going outside 12 odd times a day adds up over the year.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yeah tell me about it. Just bought a new Bentley, and had to settle on a used Lear Jet to fly me to my private island in the Caribbean.
> 
> Seriously though, years ago the Guy I painted for used to give guys a bonus and a raise if they simply quit smoking. The amount of time wasted going outside 12 odd times a day adds up over the year.


It's a lot more work to hire and train good people, build and manage a good crew with efficient systems and well defined roles. It is often thought to be impossible. What continues to always be fun, easy and possible is complaining about the price of paint. It won't be long before use of ultra premiums is a point of differentiation.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yeah tell me about it. Just bought a new Bentley, and had to settle on a used Lear Jet to fly me to my private island in the Caribbean.
> 
> Seriously though, years ago the Guy I painted for used to give guys a bonus and a raise if they simply quit smoking. The amount of time wasted going outside 12 odd times a day adds up over the year.


 
that guys first problem was hiring a smoker in the first place:jester:

when i have had smokers work for me inthe past, it was always fun to see them in the morning with a brand new pack of smokes, at the end of the day I would count how many cigeretts were missing in the pack to see how many brakes they took busted ha ha


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

i always did wonder what the markup on flagship paint was. I speculated it had to be 100% or more. cant see a shop staying open w/o it.

i do think harry throws out a solid philosophy.
sharp pencils are critical.
over time pennies on the dollar are significant.

being vigilant carries over into many aspects.
knowing right where the mark is, controlling all costs to the best reasonable extent

fixating on any single aspect, and using it as a black sheep, is a cover I use for turning a blind eye to the rest of my act


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Harry said:


> Our ultimate goal or wish should be to lose to a reputable player...not a low baller.


Why is this or why should this be our goal? Say we eliminate the lowballer completely from the equation, and only have "apples to apples". 

Why is it desirable to lose a job to some company we would consider to be on a level to our own?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Why is this or why should this be our goal? Say we eliminate the lowballer completely from the equation, and only have "apples to apples".
> 
> Why is it desirable to lose a job to some company we would consider to be on a level to our own?


Because fixing that problem is easier.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Why is it desirable to lose a job to some company we would consider to be on a level to our own?


Because it means you both have integrity.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> Because it means you both have integrity.


Yeah I get that part, but, the goal is to make money and provide a great service (least thats my goal for a business). 

If you lose jobs to companies you respect, you're still losing jobs and an opportunity to grow, and also means that, if they didn't make a mistake, they are either more efficient or have some sort of competitive advantage you don't. 

That is the part I'm having difficulty seeing as a desirable outcome.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Yeah I get that part, but, the goal is to make money and provide a great service (least thats my goal for a business).
> 
> If you lose jobs to companies you respect, you're still losing jobs and an opportunity to grow, and also means that, if they didn't make a mistake, they are either more efficient or have some sort of competitive advantage you don't.
> 
> That is the part I'm having difficulty seeing as a desirable outcome.


If they're more "efficient" by a couple hundred bucks, that's easy to overcome. The ones that are cheaper by a couple grand ...there's no competing with that.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> If they're more "efficient" by a couple hundred bucks, that's easy to overcome. The ones that are cheaper by a couple grand ...there's no competing with that.


In a way, if your competition is exactly level with your own, "apples to apples", would that not imply you are the same? How do you distinguish yourself in that scenario? If we take that to the extreme, would that not transform us into a commodity as harry suggests? If it does, then price is the only other factor to consider for a customer.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Ahh, the curse of Capitalism


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Why does everyone always want to "beat up" the supplier for a better price? I don't get it? What kind of markup do you all think we have? 100%....200%? Do you think the stuff is free, and we just roll around in profit all day?
> 
> Why not focus on efficiency? Labor costs are your biggest overhead, trim the fat off of there. Anybody that wants to respond that they're as efficient as possible is simply full of crap. JP spends countless hours on this, maybe one of the top guys here on the subject, and he's still not there yet.


It's JUST a TOPIC...not the ONLY topic.
Look, if I can get a discount, I'll take one...people have been doing this since the dawn of paint I'm sure.

Every little bit counts.

"Watch your pennies, the dollars will take care of themselves".

Things are tough out there for a lot of people and when trimming the fat and cutting costs, there certain places to look and one of them is to the supplier.

Sometimes beating on the supplier can help people stay afloat. It all matters...

Shopping paint prices, beating on the supplier
Lowering wages
Lowering overhead.
Better job costing

It all counts...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Yeah I get that part, but, the goal is to make money and provide a great service (least thats my goal for a business).
> 
> If you lose jobs to companies you respect, you're still losing jobs and an opportunity to grow, and also means that, if they didn't make a mistake, they are either more efficient or have some sort of competitive advantage you don't.
> 
> That is the part I'm having difficulty seeing as a desirable outcome.


There is plenty of work for all GOOD competition. Get rid of the low baller and you'll breathe easier...easier said than done, I know.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Why is this or why should this be our goal? Say we eliminate the lowballer completely from the equation, and only have "apples to apples".
> 
> Why is it desirable to lose a job to some company we would consider to be on a level to our own?


I typed that wrong. The goal isn't to LOSE at all. The goal is to WIN. And if the low ball price doesn't exist, we're already winning.

For one thing, every job that was won would be a job that had enough money in it to enjoy a good profit. All the good guys would have enough work at a great price...the low baller would be eliminated, causing the jobs that the low baller would have won to be back on the block so to speak..


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> In a way, if your competition is exactly level with your own, "apples to apples", would that not imply you are the same? How do you distinguish yourself in that scenario? If we take that to the extreme, would that not transform us into a commodity as harry suggests? If it does, then price is the only other factor to consider for a customer.


If we were to bid apples for apples, including price, the odds are probably...that the company that worked on their image (looks, personality, reputation, etc) may win the job. Or it may come down to the simple human factor of who the customer LIKES more...

There are many stores around that sell the same thing for the same price...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ok lets say somehow all the lowballers were gone. They decided to move to Mars, on a mission from God.

Now lets suppose a customer calls three identical, legit, paint companies for bids. 

there is a 400 dollar spread amongst them. If everything is the same, why wouldn't the customer go for the lowest price at that point?

I'm saying that, in the service industry, the perceived wisdom has always been to distinguish your company/product from the others (and this assumes legit business). 

And what it sounds like you guys are demanding or thinking to be ideal, is for the lowballer to be gone, and for the remaining to be basically the same. 

I'm not sure if I'm seeing this accurately, but if this is the case, ironically price will come back to being the deciding factor again - something that everybody here wants to thwart.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> ok lets say somehow all the lowballers were gone. They decided to move to Mars, on a mission from God.
> 
> Now lets suppose a customer calls three identical, legit, paint companies for bids.
> 
> ...


I just typed some ideas...
The big problem or complaint of MOST painters would be eliminated.

It sure would be nice to bid against others who were on the same page as you wouldn't it be?

As I said...the jobs that the low baller would have taken are now back in circulation and hey...the rest is up to you buddy...lol


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> i always did wonder what the markup on flagship paint was. I speculated it had to be 100% or more. cant see a shop staying open w/o it.


OH that IS funny. But I guess it's a common misconception and that's why any Tom, Dick, and Harry coming off the street thinks they DESERVE a discount on paint. When I worked retail, I wondered what the hell was going on. Do these HO's walk into the grocery store and ask for "your best price" on milk? Or a gas station? So why a paint store?

We were marking up in the vicinity of 34%. That means for every $25 gallon (paint was cheap in 1990) we sold, $6.50 was banked by the store. Do the math and figure how many gallons would be needed to pay rent, utilities, salaries, and all other overhead. And Suzie wants 10% off !!!!!!

At least that's how it was in 1988 - 1990 in Wellesley MA. Perhaps our retailers here can update the numbers


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Tom, Dick, and Harry


What's that supposed to mean and stuff? :detective:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Not much has changed Arch, except that $25 gallon in 1988, Joe contractor wants to pay $20 for it in 2011.  then complain when it sucks....and by complain, I mean blog lol.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> What's that supposed to mean and stuff? :detective:



Scott, you're just being too sensitive









Now doncha be goin reading too much into expressions older than all of us . Taint no hidden meaning to it. 

(After I posted that, I figured I'd catch it from someone :whistling2


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

If he asks Y'all to spell it out, I'll ban him myself!:hammer:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Scott, you're just being too sensitive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll stop reporting posts and wasting everyones time with pm's then.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok, I'll stop reporting posts and wasting everyones time with pm's then.


Thank You, I can finally delete a few pm's so my box is not full any more. :whistling2:

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Thank You, I can finally delete a few pm's so my box is not full any more. :whistling2:
> 
> Pat


Yes, I am calling it a "green" approach to conserving bandwidth.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok, I'll stop reporting posts and wasting everyones time with pm's then.


NO, don't stop. We mods deserve the entertainment. At the end of the day, we do a conference call and have great fun with all the reported post entries. It's what keeps us fulfilled. :thumbup:


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

daArch said:


> OH that IS funny. But I guess it's a common misconception and that's why any Tom, Dick, and Harry coming off the street thinks they DESERVE a discount on paint. When I worked retail, I wondered what the hell was going on. Do these HO's walk into the grocery store and ask for "your best price" on milk? Or a gas station? So why a paint store?
> 
> We were marking up in the vicinity of 34%. That means for every $25 gallon (paint was cheap in 1990) we sold, $6.50 was banked by the store. Do the math and figure how many gallons would be needed to pay rent, utilities, salaries, and all other overhead. And Suzie wants 10% off !!!!!!
> 
> At least that's how it was in 1988 - 1990 in Wellesley MA. Perhaps our retailers here can update the numbers


well at 6.50 a can, i have no idea how a store can stay afloat.
i didnt mean the store had a ton of room to discount.
i meant i can appreciate how tough it is to stay open.
my BM stores give me 20%, so i am around 37.00 on regal and 50.00 on aura. I dont think they are too high


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

I wont shop at sw just off principle alone. I know a water based gallon of paint cant cost **** to make, especially considering the scale on which they make it. How much can it really be? 5? less? Somehow it makes its way up to 50-55 bucks when it gets to me and they dont want to negotiate...what are they putting uranium in their recipe now? The hell with SW and BM.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

cappaint said:


> I wont shop at sw just off principle alone. I know a water based gallon of paint cant cost **** to make, especially considering the scale on which they make it. How much can it really be? 5? less? Somehow it makes its way up to 50-55 bucks when it gets to me and they dont want to negotiate...what are they putting uranium in their recipe now? The hell with SW and BM.


Sounds great dude. 

Good thing there is more than those two making paint! 
Lets celebrate the good times bro. :thumbsup:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

cappaint said:


> I wont shop at sw just off principle alone. I know a water based gallon of paint cant cost **** to make, especially considering the scale on which they make it. How much can it really be? 5? less? Somehow it makes its way up to 50-55 bucks when it gets to me and they dont want to negotiate...what are they putting uranium in their recipe now? The hell with SW and BM.


Who gives a chit whats in it. As long as it makes me money and keeps the customer happy then I will keep buying from BM 

Pat


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*No uranium, but*



cappaint said:


> I wont shop at sw just off principle alone. I know a water based gallon of paint cant cost **** to make, especially considering the scale on which they make it. How much can it really be? 5? less? Somehow it makes its way up to 50-55 bucks when it gets to me and they dont want to negotiate...what are they putting uranium in their recipe now? The hell with SW and BM.


the acrylic resins, TiO2, additives, containers, electricity to run the machines, premiums on health insurance for the workers, cost of diesel to truck the heavy paint to the stores, all are going up at a fantastic rate. Some of the raws, like TiO2, you can't even get if you're willing to pay a premium. You can buy cheaper Chinese materials, but you're taking a big chance in terms of quality assurance. I've had five price increases on one of my main raws in the last year.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> the acrylic resins, TiO2, additives, containers, electricity to run the machines, premiums on health insurance for the workers, cost of diesel to truck the heavy paint to the stores, all are going up at a fantastic rate. Some of the raws, like TiO2, you can't even get if you're willing to pay a premium. You can buy cheaper Chinese materials, but you're taking a big chance in terms of quality assurance. I've had five price increases on one of my main raws in the last year.


Everybody has a cost of doing business...bottom line is...are you making the same profit as you were two years ago? Or has your profit dropped in the last two years or so?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> ok lets say somehow all the lowballers were gone. They decided to move to Mars, on a mission from God.
> 
> Now lets suppose a customer calls three identical, legit, paint companies for bids.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right with one caveat.. its never equal. Three companies can be qualified. Three owners can present the same level of knowledge. Still the deciding factor is going to be who the customer likes best and trusts most. The goal, as it always is in sales, is selling yourself first and selling the benefits of the job as a close second. 

All of my points are geared at residential sales. Commercial is a different beast. Jobs are usually spec'd and the person making the decision is weighted by budget. There is still some margin of salesmanship, but not like in residential where the right style of selling will make all the difference.

It goes without saying, regardless of how good a salesperson you are, as a business owner you should work first towards efficiency with a product, gain customer count, then negotiate your materials supply.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I've said it a million times.Painters are funny! They negotiate the 5hit out of everything they want to buy but when a customer wants to negotiate they are offended.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> You're absolutely right with one caveat.. its never equal. Three companies can be qualified. Three owners can present the same level of knowledge. Still the deciding factor is going to be who the customer likes best and trusts most. The goal, as it always is in sales, is selling yourself first and selling the benefits of the job as a close second.
> 
> 
> It goes without saying, regardless of how good a salesperson you are, as a business owner you should work first towards efficiency with a product, gain customer count, then negotiate your materials supply.


Yes, I agree. That was the point I was trying to render from creating a unnatural scenario with 3 "identical" competing contractors on a bid.

I think it comes back to the lowballer basically being irrelevant. It just felt like the general sentiment here was: all we have to do is eliminate the lowballer and everything will be fine. But, we can see that, if that element is gone, what we really have is a real sense of competition which requires improving ones own systems in order to outperform. It requires constant improvement.


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*I'm not complaining*



Harry said:


> Everybody has a cost of doing business...bottom line is...are you making the same profit as you were two years ago? Or has your profit dropped in the last two years or so?


Just pointing out that paint makers aren't fat cats rolling in money. We don't take dirt and convert it to gold. It's hard work, with a lot of risk involved, and many unforeseen pitfalls in the way. We must cope with inflation and economic uncertainty, just like the painting professionals.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Yes, I agree. That was the point I was trying to render from creating a unnatural scenario with 3 "identical" competing contractors on a bid.
> 
> I think it comes back to the lowballer basically being irrelevant. It just felt like the general sentiment here was: all we have to do is eliminate the lowballer and everything will be fine. But, we can see that, if that element is gone, what we really have is a real sense of competition which requires improving ones own systems in order to outperform. It requires constant improvement.


TJ, I know you get it. For me, the internet is the changing factor. I try to be everywhere. People see that in their searches. Each time I give advice in a thread, it shows up on someone's search. By the time I get to many estimates, the trust is there. I know my trade, I speak clearly and do my best to sound like I know what I am talking about and usually price is a distant factor in their decision making..as long as they can afford the service to begin with. I try to keep my marketing targeted to the demographic that can afford to say yes to $700 house/property washes. With enough time in business, and references to back me up, my closes have become much easier. A guy coming in cold with no time in business, (let's call him a lowballer) doesn't have much of a chance to compete so he throws out low price. That triggers a red flag in people and thus, he is eliminated from my concern as a viable competitor.

If I don't get their business today, there's a good chance they call me on the next round because the low price person is either out of business or botched the job. That is why I do not really worry about these companies that pop up with hopes and dreams of a volume model from Jump Street. It just doesn't work that way.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> TJ, I know you get it. For me, the internet is the changing factor. I try to be everywhere. People see that in their searches. Each time I give advice in a thread, it shows up on someone's search. By the time I get to many estimates, the trust is there. I know my trade, I speak clearly and do my best to sound like I know what I am talking about and usually price is a distant factor in their decision making..as long as they can afford the service to begin with. I try to keep my marketing targeted to the demographic that can afford to say yes to $700 house/property washes. With enough time in business, and references to back me up, my closes have become much easier. A guy coming in cold with no time in business, (let's call him a lowballer) doesn't have much of a chance to compete so he throws out low price. That triggers a red flag in people and thus, he is eliminated from my concern as a viable competitor.
> 
> If I don't get their business today, there's a good chance they call me on the next round because the low price person is either out of business or botched the job. That is why I do not really worry about these companies that pop up with hopes and dreams of a volume model from Jump Street. It just doesn't work that way.


:thumbup::thumbup::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Just pointing out that paint makers aren't fat cats rolling in money. We don't take dirt and convert it to gold. It's hard work, with a lot of risk involved, and many unforeseen pitfalls in the way. We must cope with inflation and economic uncertainty, just like the painting professionals.


Everybody has hard work, lol. Everybody has pitfalls. I realize this but am just wondering if your profits have dropped like most.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> TJ, I know you get it. For me, the internet is the changing factor. I try to be everywhere. People see that in their searches. Each time I give advice in a thread, it shows up on someone's search. By the time I get to many estimates, the trust is there. I know my trade, I speak clearly and do my best to sound like I know what I am talking about and usually price is a distant factor in their decision making..as long as they can afford the service to begin with. I try to keep my marketing targeted to the demographic that can afford to say yes to $700 house/property washes. With enough time in business, and references to back me up, my closes have become much easier. A guy coming in cold with no time in business, (let's call him a lowballer) doesn't have much of a chance to compete so he throws out low price. That triggers a red flag in people and thus, he is eliminated from my concern as a viable competitor.
> 
> If I don't get their business today, there's a good chance they call me on the next round because the low price person is either out of business or botched the job. That is why I do not really worry about these companies that pop up with hopes and dreams of a volume model from Jump Street. It just doesn't work that way.


PP, I know that you know what your own deal is but the vast majority of painters out there work at a different level...and the lowballer is very real and exists in their neighborhoods.

I deal with many people who can't pick up and move or separate themselves anymore than they have. Not everyone can be chiefs but if the low baller is gone, the option that is too low to be the right price will be eliminated...leaving the lowest price that is available...a decent price where everyone is happy at the end of the day. Not only that, it changes the odds for the buyer. if there is no low ball number, they'll have to go with the next number which is a number that is good.

Low ballers aren't irrelevant to a lot of people...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

It was my first thought as well when I read that. I haven't been in business nearly as lomg as you Harry, but I have had many old timers talk to me of the golden days, saying they are working much cheaper than in the 80s.

Just doesn't seem like progress for tradesmen.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Harry said:


> PP, I know that you know what your own deal is but the vast majority of painters out there work at a different level...and the lowballer is very real and exists in their neighborhoods.
> 
> I deal with many people who can't pick up and move or separate themselves anymore than they have. Not everyone can be chiefs but if the low baller is gone, the option that is too low to be the right price will be eliminated...leaving the lowest price that is available...a decent price where everyone is happy at the end of the day. Not only that, it changes the odds for the buyer. if there is no low ball number, they'll have to go with the next number which is a number that is good.
> 
> Low ballers aren't irrelevant to a lot of people...


I understand your point, Harry. It makes sense. I guess where I would maybe play advocate is in asking you how realistic it is to think we can eliminate them from any business or trade. We can invent things to help cure people from sickness, but the bacteria causing the infections will never be eliminated. They mutate and breed too much. We all tend to look at lowballers as intentional parasites that operate around the law. That's not all of them. I would bet many are honest, hard working people that just don't understand business. They are willing to pay all the licensing fees and get the right certs, but what they don't understand, and what those certs don't teach them, is how much it costs to do business. They either learn, adapt and restructure or they go out of business. For every one that dies, two more newbies-with-no-clue are born somewhere else. 

There is just no possible way to regulate them out of existence. So you either set yourself apart and don't worry about them.. maximize your efficiency and worry about every nickel and man hour to be the lowest priced guy and hope your marketing is strong enough to make it on volume.. or you go work for someone. No matter which, I stand by my premise that lowballers become irrelevant to the choice of business model. There is always another one waiting in line.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> It was my first thought as well when I read that. I haven't been in business nearly as lomg as you Harry, but I have had many old timers talk to me of the golden days, saying they are working much cheaper than in the 80s.
> 
> Just doesn't seem like progress for tradesmen.


I guess I'm trying to figure out how many low baller sales would go to the next price which would be a decent price to make a profit.

I just read that 38% of automobile buyers, buy on price...

That would be a lot of jobs being done for a decent price if the low baller was eliminated.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> I understand your point, Harry. It makes sense. I guess where I would maybe play advocate is in asking you how realistic it is to think we can eliminate them from any business or trade. We can invent things to help cure people from sickness, but the bacteria causing the infections will never be eliminated. They mutate and breed too much. We all tend to look at lowballers as intentional parasites that operate around the law. That's not all of them. I would bet many are honest, hard working people that just don't understand business. They are willing to pay all the licensing fees and get the right certs, but what they don't understand, and what those certs don't teach them, is how much it costs to do business. They either learn, adapt and restructure or they go out of business. For every one that dies, two more newbies-with-no-clue are born somewhere else.
> 
> There is just no possible way to regulate them out of existence. So you either set yourself apart and don't worry about them.. maximize your efficiency and worry about every nickel and man hour to be the lowest priced guy and hope your marketing is strong enough to make it on volume.. or you go work for someone. No matter which, I stand by my premise that lowballers become irrelevant to the choice of business model. There is always another one waiting in line.



Here's the scenario...

20% of the painters say the low baller doesn't matter because they don't bid against him and continue to do what they do

80% of painters say the low baller doesn't matter because there is no way to get rid of him and continue to do what they do.

You're right...


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Harry said:


> I guess I'm trying to figure out how many low baller sales would go to the next price which would be a decent price to make a profit.
> 
> I just read that 38% of automobile buyers, buy on price...
> 
> That would be a lot of jobs being done for a decent price if the low baller was eliminated.


That's a perfect stat. That is maybe a little more than one out of three people. Which means if you are the granddaddy pimp of marketing and selling you have the potential of closing 62% of your sales. Cars are even slanted because for many people, a car is get from point A to point B.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PP said:


> I would bet many are honest, hard working people that just don't understand business. They are willing to pay all the licensing fees and get the right certs, but what they don't understand, and what those certs don't teach them, is how much it costs to do business.


Yep. I'm sure that covers 95% of us starting out.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> That's a perfect stat. That is maybe a little more than one out of three people. Which means if you are the granddaddy pimp of marketing and selling you have the potential of closing 62% of your sales. Cars are even slanted because for many people, a car is get from point A to point B.


Only 20% have the potential of that closing rate...the others lose because of the low baller.

I'm all for the rich getting richer I guess but I'd like to see the poor get richer too. I realize it's in the cards sometimes but then again, that answer just isn't good enough for me...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Bender said:


> Yep. I'm sure that covers 95% of us starting out.


And what percentage...finishing that way?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Well, I guess we beat the crap out of THAT topic, lol.

I guess it all comes down to comparing the painting industry to other industries that have their stuff together...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Harry said:


> Well, I guess we beat the crap out of THAT topic, lol.
> 
> I guess it all comes down to comparing the painting industry to other industries that have their stuff together...


I think this thread has a few more pages of life to it.

So what would be a relevant industry to compare the Painting/finishing/decorating industries?


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

Harry said:


> Everybody has hard work, lol. Everybody has pitfalls. I realize this but am just wondering if your profits have dropped like most.


Yes. It's called "margin compression". There's always the temptation to cut corners, such as using tap water instead of deionized water, which would save a lot of money on each gallon, but tap water has varying properties that would make for batch to batch quality control problems. I'll never make a change just for the sake of maintaining profit margins. I'm not a professional painter, but I was once a piano refinisher, and I know what it's like to open a can and find something radically different from the last batch. I couldn't bear to have that happen to any of my customers.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> I think this thread has a few more pages of life to it.
> 
> So what would be a relevant industry to compare the Painting/finishing/decorating industries?


Relevant, meaning, professionals who perform work in a specific trade?

Name 10 and you'd probably right...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Yes. It's called "margin compression". There's always the temptation to cut corners, such as using tap water instead of deionized water, which would save a lot of money on each gallon, but tap water has varying properties that would make for batch to batch quality control problems. I'll never make a change just for the sake of maintaining profit margins. I'm not a professional painter, but I was once a piano refinisher, and I know what it's like to open a can and find something radically different from the last batch. I couldn't bear to have that happen to any of my customers.


You're skirting the issue IMO.

In plain English are ya 'hurtin' ?

You, me and everyone else that lives in this country realize that we entered a recession and that things just aren't the same for most people as they were before the recession hit.

BUT...

I don't see your company being at the mercy of anyone, I really don't. Maybe I'm all wet but I think you can eat and chew gun at the same time...I think that you'll get what money you need and want before the applicator does...

BTW, I don't mean anything in a hateful or hurtful way. I realize that business is business. It's just that I heard a lot years ago when I used to pick up tons of Hancock paint in Ludlow, MA.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

So Harry, would you like to see paint manufacturers cheapen their paints so they can maintain that holy grail, aka: profit margin ?

And I am not sure what you mean by saying that a paint company isn't at the mercy of anyone. If less paint gets applied, less paint is needed to be made, if less paint is made, manufactures are affected. Thank god one is not reducing the quality of their product just to meet past profit margins . Maybe I'm all wet, but I am failing to fully comprehend your point.

And I also do not understand the reference to a Mass. based paint manufacturer who was absorbed years ago (by ICI ?) and is now no longer.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

daArch said:


> So Harry, would you like to see paint manufacturers cheapen their paints so they can maintain that holy grail, aka: profit margin ?
> 
> And I am not sure what you mean by saying that a paint company isn't at the mercy of anyone. If less paint gets applied, less paint is needed to be made, if less paint is made, manufactures are affected. Thank god one is not reducing the quality of their product just to meet past profit margins . Maybe I'm all wet, but I am failing to fully comprehend your point.
> 
> And I also do not understand the reference to a Mass. based paint manufacturer who was absorbed years ago (by ICI ?) and is now no longer.


I think he meant 'hurting' Bill.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Just do things lowballers cant do, with customers who dont like sketchy dudes in wifebeaters and late model wagons and things will be just fine. 

How many things did you do today that a lowballer cant pull off?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

daArch said:


> So Harry, would you like to see paint manufacturers cheapen their paints so they can maintain that holy grail, aka: profit margin ?
> 
> *No...would you?*
> 
> ...


*Again, it's okay if you don't understand things. Fact is, I spent a lot of time at the Hancock paint factory and learned a thing or three...and I don't believe that paint manufacturers are hurting. I could be wrong and if so...so be it.*


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## isaac (Jun 27, 2011)

*mad as hell*

Im with jesse its hard to keep chargeing more for paint from sw I think we should all go with porter until we get a set price that will make them think twice about ripping off the working man and our customers


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> how many things did you do today that a lowballer cant pull off?


Bought lunch
Filled my car with gas
Started my car
Drove my car legally
Made a bank deposit
Paid bills
Picked up my child from daycare (although I only have one and not 30 )
Went home without fear of all my crap sitting on the lawn

I'm sure there's more.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Harry said:


> *Again, it's okay if you don't understand things. Fact is, I spent a lot of time at the Hancock paint factory and learned a thing or three...and I don't believe that paint manufacturers are hurting. I could be wrong and if so...so be it.*


I know you weren't talking to me, but being an open conversation, you are also not talking under a cone of silence. That's the beauty of these interent forums, we are all privy to the conversations and look forward to learning from them.

And that's what I'd like to do, learn. 

What did you learn from Norwell (I assume that's where you went to visit the Hancock factory). And why do you not believe that paint manufacturers (or ANY manufacturers) are NOT hurting. I don't got no PhD or even Masters in economics, but my intuition says during a recession, very few businesses are not hurting to some degree. Why would paint manufacturers be any different?

Seriously, I want to know. I'd love some facts, figures, and examples. I'm not learned in this so if you could take me through it, I'd appreciate it. Sorta like a "Dummies" book.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

daArch said:


> I know you weren't talking to me, but being an open conversation, you are also not talking under a cone of silence. That's the beauty of these interent forums, we are all privy to the conversations and look forward to learning from them.
> 
> And that's what I'd like to do, learn.
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right, it's Norwell, near Quincy. Ludlow was near Springfield.

No big secret Arch, just a fact that guys with buying power get much better deals. I also know that some guys could get their paint "dummied" up and we put on thousands of gallons of this paint...heavy as hell for certain customers.

Here's one for ya...if you were a large customer of Hancock, you could have bought your fives for $1.50 cheaper if you didn't get their labels or bucket handles. My father's buddy used to save $75k a year doing this...more money than most painters buy in paint. All fives on pallets with marker. The guys had fun running those up the stairs.

And no, I didn't "visit" as in "tour", I was there many times.

And like I said...if I'm wrong about things...so be it...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

All very well and good. That's kinda SOP. Volume discount. Unlabeled. Less hardware attached. Better pricing.

But you still haven't answered to your comment that "I don't see your company being at the mercy of anyone,"

I inferred (perhaps wrongly) that you implied that paint manufacturers were not hurting like others during this recession.


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

BM and SW are price so high because they want to be the mercedes of the paint industry.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

daArch said:


> All very well and good. That's kinda SOP. Volume discount. Unlabeled. Less hardware attached. Better pricing.
> 
> But you still haven't answered to your comment that "I don't see your company being at the mercy of anyone,"
> 
> I inferred (perhaps wrongly) that you implied that paint manufacturers were not hurting like others during this recession.


What's this, 20 questions drill?
My final response to you on this will be ...no, I really don't think they are at the mercy of anyone and that's my opinion.

And what do you know about SOP from guys who do millions in paint volume? You're a paperhanger aren't ya?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

And in the corner to my right, wearing the black trunks...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

cappaint said:


> BM and SW are price so high because they want to be the mercedes of the paint industry.


Not want....ARE. then again, they have something for every need and budget. They make $10-$60+ paints, what do you need, and how much do you want to spend?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

weighing one-hundred-seventy-five pounds.. Harry, The Esssstimaaatttoorrrr

and in this corner... wearing an I ♥ Harry T-shirt and weighing in at 160 lbs, Bill Da Arrrrrrrrrrch


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> weighing one-hundred-seventy-five pounds.. Harry, The Esssstimaaatttoorrrr
> 
> and in this corner... wearing an I ♥ Harry T-shirt and weighing in at 160 lbs, Bill Da Arrrrrrrrrrch


In the ring, it is actually: 

Harry "THE TRUTH" Carter 

and 

Bill "the one armed paperhanger" Archibald

:yes:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)




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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> In the ring, it is actually:
> 
> Harry "THE TRUTH" Carter
> 
> ...



:thumbup:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> weighing one-hundred-seventy-five pounds.. Harry, The Esssstimaaatttoorrrr
> and in this corner... wearing an I ♥ Harry T-shirt and weighing in at 160 lbs, Bill Da Arrrrrrrrrrch


:boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm thinking about changing my avatar to fit the spirit of this main event.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

What are you thinking of changing to? Its time to update mine as well.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> What are you thinking of changing to? Its time to update mine as well.


Just thinking of a time when things were more fun around here and we could diffuse contentious situations with humor. I want to do something fun. Any suggestions?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)




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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

patspainting said:


> why is everyone always crying about high paint costs? I just don't get it. It's not like its some additional tax or something. The freaking customer pays for materials.
> 
> Pat


 
end thread


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

<- Sorry Bill.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Just thinking of a time when things were more fun around here and we could diffuse contentious situations with humor. I want to do something fun. Any suggestions?


:lol::lol:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

And the crowd is restless...nothing like mob mentality...whoo!:jester:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> <- Sorry Bill.


Some guys on here KNEW it!
Why am I the last to know??

Hahaha...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Some guys on here KNEW it!
> Why am I the last to know??
> 
> Hahaha...


You must not have read the post where I announced that I would be changing my avatar.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Screw you VP...


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I like the theme, Scott. 

Cause we love ya, Harry. Even though the love is not reciprocated.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> You must not have read the post where I announced that I would be changing my avatar.


I did! I did!
But I didn't know today would be the day that you would "come out".
I'm proud of you, you, you vermont guy you...:clap:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its not that its not reciprocated, its just tough love. 

Nice avatars guys. Its about time we got some team spirit around here, even if we are divided.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> I like the theme, Scott.
> 
> Cause we love ya, Harry. Even though the love is not reciprocated.


Aww come on, you know I love you guys. I wouldn't be here if I thought otherwise...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> I did! I did!
> But I didn't know today would be the day that you would "come out".
> I'm proud of you, you, you vermont guy you...:clap:


So far so good, but I suspect that when David Weeks rolls in, he will choose the Bill goods and boost his numbers a bit.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Im in!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Somebody get a blog out in syndication please.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> So far so good, but I suspect that when David Weeks rolls in, he will choose the Bill goods and boost his numbers a bit.


Exactly what do you mean Scott?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Somebody get a blog out in syndication please.


Exactly what do you mean Scott?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I too needed to show my love via my avatar.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Checkmate!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Checkmate!


That one could be a big hit. Is it available to others?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Did you guys make those in Photoshop?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Exactly what do you mean Scott?


I mean that this type of excitement could be good for painttalk ratings, which we need to keep the lights on around here. Things had been a bit stale.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Now it's checkmate


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Now it's checkmate


I like that one.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I love wearing other peoples shoes.

I think Bobby Z had a line about it. :thumbsup:


Love to all.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

RCP has already sent in a order of 1000 of these.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> RCP has already sent in a order of 1000 of these.


RCP is like the Don King of painttalk.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> RCP is like the Don King of painttalk.


Chris is gonna kill me for raiding her FB page. I'm taking one for the team.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

She'll be busy handing out infractions for the next 24 hrs.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> She'll be busy handing out infractions for the next 24 hrs.


She'll think she's back at school with a room full of pre-adolescents :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> She'll think she's back at school with a room full of pre-adolescents :thumbsup:


Well, thats why I think it is important that we gain market share, get more advertiser/partners and get you moderators your long overdue raises. If you should need representation, I know a very tough negotiator.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Look at what you boys have done to Harry's thread while I have been gone!
Paul, Dean, bring me the big ban stick!

:boxing:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> Look at what you boys have done to Harry's thread while I have been gone!
> Paul, Dean, bring me the big ban stick!
> 
> :boxing:


Jesse KY's thread...


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Harry said:


> Jesse KY's thread...


Nice try!


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

"Or it may come down to the simple human factor of who the customer LIKES more..."


this is where I would have something to say, because right now, where Ipaint or what I am running into here in WV is very different than the S.ca. scene where it seemed there were jobs with multiple bidders and a major feeling of more competition.

just two evenings ago, I had a call(referral) and a referral from someone that I had not even painted for, as of yet. She is tossingme some bones, because she would like a "good price" and is showing me her abilities to send things my way and quickly. (Her family owns multiple restaurants in town and has so since I can remember growing up here from the 70's)

anyway- I never had met this woman. 

I knocked at her door and noticed a flier from "baptist temple" between the two doors, and I handed it to her. To keep it simple, I expained that I am the painter and it was here-but what a coincedence because my dad was a member of this same church.....one member had come by to give her a bulletin.....
she was in the same bible study as my dad(before he died) and was fond of him. she right away is completely comfortable with me......big human factor.

later on in the estimate she is describing another painter who had mentioned that she "should us satin " so she can clean the walls off-and she thought that was a pretty stupid suggestion because of her age(must have been in late 70's early 80's) and he was insitent that that was a better paint than flat. This woman in her lifetime also sold paint-so she is familiar with sheens......and lives by herself........

she gives me an old receipt from SW from painting the room back in 1995.

roller covers $1.99
classic 99 flat $13.99
classic 99 satin(trim) $16.99

now as I am working up her estimate in writing(lol RCP)

my materials will cost
white dove cover ($ 7-8 dollars)
off coarse there are other choices
flat pro mar-$ 21.35 other choice is available here, too
proclassic increases from $45..now to $48.29 and other choice is available here too.
*****************************************************
And for a curve ball- I had a friend in san diego that is an architect and he would go in and group up with other business owners and they would "barter" between themselves. I thought that is a pretty unique idea to do business.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> Nice try!


I meant that he created the topic...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

And this thread still lives..


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

this thread has Tiger Blood


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

http://dividata.com/stock/SHW


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Poor Jesse KY. Thread overtaken by the big guns of PT. Probably had no way of knowing it could happen to him but probably will be pissed after he wades through 219 posts.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Sticky?





And the "I Love VerNeps" pins have been ordered and will be available in 4-6 weeks. PM your addy.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I had some custom bobble heads made today. Limited supply. All the stars of painttalk.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Sticky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great, now you tell me, spent all morning at the tattoo parlor!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I had some custom bobble heads made today. Limited supply. All the stars of painttalk.


Bobbleheads are pricey. I looked into them.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

This thread is so phucked up. :yes:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Bobbleheads are pricey. I looked into them.


Its an emotional purchase.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> This thread is so phucked up. :yes:


Until Dean comes along and sucks all the oxegen out of the room. :jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bad Luck Veltman. Wowsie wowsie woo woo, miserable day out today, isnt it gang?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Very humid. I had a real bad hair day.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

So get this one:

On one of my sites there is a real good roach coach. Guy cooks all kinds of stuff. Chili, pasta, burgers, ect. So about a half hour after lunch I go to use the porta toilet to do a number one and there is a newpaper in there (written in portuguese) spread out and empty food contaners all over the side (by the urinal). It looks like one of the framers (over here on a student visa of course) had himself a 3 course meal while takin a duece. Now my question is: How the hell could anyone eat a meal in one of those things on a 90 degree day? Also that thing was ripe as can be. I bet that thing hadnt been pumped in at least two weeks. 

End rant.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Very humid. I had a real bad hair day.


Humidity is no good for an afro of your caliber.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> This thread is so phucked up. :yes:



Actually for the guys touting bobbleheads their thinking this should be a natural course for every thread. 

Wanna talk price?..."buy my bobblehead".
Wanna talk Proshot?..."buy my bobblehead".
Wanna talk brushes?..."buy my bobblehead".
Wanna talk sprayer tips?..."buy my bobblehead".


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> So get this one:
> 
> On one of my sites there is a real good roach coach. Guy cooks all kinds of stuff. Chili, pasta, burgers, ect. So about a half hour after lunch I go to use the porta toilet to do a number one and there is a newpaper in there (written in portuguese) spread out and empty food contaners all over the side (by the urinal). It looks like one of the framers (over here on a student visa of course) had himself a 3 course meal while takin a duece. Now my question is: How the hell could anyone eat a meal in one of those things on a 90 degree day? Also that thing was ripe as can be. I bet that thing hadnt been pumped in at least two weeks.
> 
> End rant.



Maybe the guy was just laying everything out trying to figure what the culprit was that put him in there in the first place?

Pat


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> So get this one:
> 
> On one of my sites there is a real good roach coach. Guy cooks all kinds of stuff. Chili, pasta, burgers, ect. So about a half hour after lunch I go to use the porta toilet to do a number one and there is a newpaper in there (written in portuguese) spread out and empty food contaners all over the side (by the urinal). It looks like one of the framers (over here on a student visa of course) had himself a 3 course meal while takin a duece. Now my question is: How the hell could anyone eat a meal in one of those things on a 90 degree day? Also that thing was ripe as can be. I bet that thing hadnt been pumped in at least two weeks.
> 
> End rant.


Maybe it was the roach coaches cook preparing his trays while he took a duece. Ever hear of multi tasking?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Maybe it was the roach coach food vender packing up a delivery

where's that sewage "mud" burger link when you need it ?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Bad Luck Veltman. Wowsie wowsie woo woo, miserable day out today, isnt it gang?


Where did my Internet Cloak of Annonymity go????


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Where did my Internet Cloak of Annonymity go????


Those days are over, embrace it young jedi. .


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

:yes:


Jesse KY said:


> I recommend Sherwin Williams products to my customers almost every day. It seems to me that painting contractors across the nation are by far their best sales force. SW could never employ enough sales reps to even come close to the number of contractors out there. Lately its like they are the enemy. We have a price increase about 3x a year. I think there should be lower contractor prices. I also see residential customers walk in and open an account and their prices are pretty close to mine. They have declined to provide a price list that is good for a certain period of time. Any thoughts?


:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:


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