# Old Exterior Oak Door - Gel Stain Process?



## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

Hey peeps. I've got a worn out oak panel front door on the docket, the client would like it refinished and they are talking about using gel stain to do so. I think they are looking for a more inexpensive alternative to stripping the whole door. I'm looking for some advice!

My plan was to leave it hanging, sand really well, wood condition (?) (wait 2 hours), gel stain (wait 8-10 hours which will be overnight). Next day spray 3 coats of Helmsman Spar Urethane Clear. Although someone on here said Sikkens door and window clear satin was better. I was going to go with Old Masters gel stain or Minwax (no General Finishes in my province as far as I know).

I've never used gel stain before, although I've wanted to try it. The client knows it will be the first time I'm using gel stain, and I plan to find some cabinet doors to practice on first. I have experience with regular stain, just not get stain. I'm looking for any advice on this project, or if someone thinks I shouldn't use gel stain - why, and what would you suggest? Or, if you've had good experience with gel stain, I'm curious about your process. 

This door has some pretty greyed out/black areas on the lips of the panels where it looks like the clear coat failed over time and the wood has been compromised. Is there any product that I can apply to these areas to revive them before I stain? i don't want them to be darker than the other areas and I'm not sure sanding alone would do it. 

I've also been thinking that after sanding I could apply a wood conditioner prior to staining? I know oak is a hard wood but since there's some damage, I wonder if it might help the stain go on evenly. Gel stain apparently doesn't penetrate like regular but it could still get caught up in the damaged areas...right? I've also heard tell of the idea of sealing the door first with clear coat and then gel staining. 

Any advice on method or product in this process would be ever so helpful. I've seen some pictures of gel stained doors and some are really nice looking but some are horrible...I really want to do this the right way. 

I've attached some pics of the door as it is now, and there's 1 picture of a neighbors door that they like and it's pretty much what they're after for the end result. They want to see the oak wood grain.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Have you tried to sand, clean, and test a small spot with normal stain?

If the regular stain works, it seems to me like it may be best for you to go that route perhaps instead. The gel stains work good when you apply and wipe them off. 

They can be used to do some selective faux work, but can be temperamental to work with depending on brand/mixture. When you do faux wood type staining, you have to know how to fade the color with a brush fairly well...and that takes a lot of experience/time. 

I would try a sample of regular stain and see if that works. If so, then it's business as usual. 

The darker spots, try and sand to bare wood if possible, and go from there. Let us know how the test worked or what you decided to do.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I would suspect it will be tough to get the even look that the neighbor's door has, at least without more extensive sanding than it sounds like your customers want. If they are okay with a more consistently darker stained look, I have had success taking pretty badly messed up doors and getting them looking good without having to do extensive sanding.

My process is to sand as much as is possible (or practical) and then lay down a normal stain coat (I prefer Old Masters or Rudd). Then I take a tinted water based clear coat and mist on light successive layers of it using my HVLP - building up the color until a nice even, but not overly built up, look is achieved.

I believe it's Woodco who does a similar process using solvent based stain and lacquer thinner (1 to 5 ratio?). Maybe he will chime in.


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

That mold will be difficult to sand out if it has rooted in, I suggest a bleach solution to brighten it as much as possible and kill it. You will probably have less grain contrast with gel over penetrating stain, but you mentioned they wanted the grain. I wouldn't spray the Helmsman unless you buy it in a rattle can ready to go. Mix it with mineral spirits and BLO to rub it on would be my method.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I did this door recently. This door was about ten years old, and I dont think it had ever been coated.... I spent about 4 hours sanding and staining (both sides). I suggest you do the same. Yes, I have a method for tinting stuff/evening out stain. mix a little stain, with about 5 parts lacquer thinner, put it in a gravity feed, hold it about two feet from the surface, and go over it several times quickly. It will gradually get darker and darker. DONT try to get it really dark all at once. I do this AFTER I have applied a stain on it. This is merely to darken the stain further, not to replace the staining process! I dont suggest doing this over clear coats either, unless you use lacquer based stain. I did not do this with this door, BTW.

The darker the stain color you're doing, the less perfect you need to be about sanding. Orbital sand what you can, hand sand what you cant. The worse shape its in, the easier the sanding will be. I'd forget the gel stain if I was you


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Are you mixing an alkyd stain with lacquer thinner?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I have done that, but I try not to spray it on anything clearcoated, I think lacquer based stains would be okay to spray on other, cuz they wont leave an oil barrier. I try to use lacquer stains whenever possible anyway. 

None of this is by the book in any way, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but what I've found is alkyd stain mixed with 5 parts lacquer thinner works on uncleared wood, or over lacquer, as the thinner burns the stain in. I would NOT spray the stain mix over waterborne clears. Over oil clears is questionable. I would only do it lightly, and I'd make sure it dried for a a day or two before topcoating.

I think to tint a clear coated surface with alkyd stain, the mixture would need some clear coat in it to bind the stain. 

Im just not a big fan of using tinted clears. Lots of people do it though, but i'd rather just spray the color.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Painting Practice said:


> That mold will be difficult to sand out if it has rooted in, I suggest a bleach solution to brighten it as much as possible and kill it. You will probably have less grain contrast with gel over penetrating stain, but you mentioned they wanted the grain. I wouldn't spray the Helmsman unless you buy it in a rattle can ready to go. Mix it with mineral spirits and BLO to rub it on would be my method.


Why wouldnt you spray the helmsman? I've done it plenty of times with no bad effects. I would probably just brush on that particular door, but Im curious as to why you wouldnt spray it?


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

Woodco said:


> Why wouldnt you spray the helmsman? I've done it plenty of times with no bad effects. I would probably just brush on that particular door, but Im curious as to why you wouldnt spray it?


I have never attempted, assuming it would need dilution and didn't know what cutting it would do. I've read about fogginess and irregular drying. That and If I am going to spray, Helmsman seems a bit low end I guess.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Helmsman is low end. There is no question about that. Brushing on multiple coats of it is the best way to use it if you are brushing it. And i do mean MULTIPLE coats. In other words, if you are planning on brushing a door do yourself a favor and find another exterior poly.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Don't gel stain. It won't hold up long term.

Sand the whole door down (it won't take as long as you think.
Wash in wood brightener, or oxylic acid. Rinse, and give a quick sand.
Use a wiping stain, then a quality exterior pigmented clear coat

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Painting Practice said:


> I have never attempted, assuming it would need dilution and didn't know what cutting it would do. I've read about fogginess and irregular drying. That and If I am going to spray, Helmsman seems a bit low end I guess.


If you're gonna use a low end Spar, why would it be any worse to spray it or brush it? And why would it be okay to rattle can it? And you also said you'd thin it down anyway... YOu lost me.. Anyway, I usually put a little lacquer thinner in if Im spraying anything oil based, to help it dry quicker. For the first coat, I will thin it a bit more, to make it sort of a sanding sealer. Let it dry overnight, give 'er a sand then spray a good second coat, and it always looks tits. (Im talking about Spar urethanes in general here. Not helmsman specifically.)

On a side note, NEVER use a sanding sealer on an exterior door.... I had this dumbass boss that made me do that, so we could do it in one day.... I looked at a brand new door four months later, and the finish as all f*cked up. You could tell the sand sealer was failing.


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

Woodco said:


> If you're gonna use a low end Spar, why would it be any worse to spray it or brush it? And why would it be okay to rattle can it? And you also said you'd thin it down anyway... YOu lost me..
> 
> 
> I'll rephrase: I would never use Minwax spar urethane on anything on my own accord. If somebody else wanted to spray it I would suggest a rattle can so at the very least they can hold Minwax accountable when it fails.


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

PACman said:


> Helmsman is low end. There is no question about that. Brushing on multiple coats of it is the best way to use it if you are brushing it. And i do mean MULTIPLE coats. In other words, if you are planning on brushing a door do yourself a favor and find another exterior poly.


Perfect. I've never used the Helmsman but one of my favorite youtube painters seems to use it a lot. Figured it was good quality but the votes are in and apparently its boo-urns. It was you that was talking about Sikkens. Door and Window Cetol Coating? I've used Sikkens stain products but never used the clear coat. Is it better quality then?


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

Woodco said:


> On a side note, NEVER use a sanding sealer on an exterior door.... I had this dumbass boss that made me do that, so we could do it in one day.... I looked at a brand new door four months later, and the finish as all f*cked up. You could tell the sand sealer was failing.



Good to know. I've heard tell of using a sanding sealer and was looking into it but didn't know much about it. Yeah I'm not looking to save time and end up with poor results so I won't go down that path. Cheers.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

My understanding is that multiple clear coats should be SOP regardless of what you use. The whole point of it is to protect the actual finish so that all you need to do is hit it with a maintenance coat every few years. Or am I wrong? Or maybe this only applies to brush work?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Sop?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Sop?


Standard operating procedure


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Military term, sorry.


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

i would absolutely stay away from Helmsman Spar Varnish- it is an inferior product- I've seen it fail in less than a year.

Try a real marine varnish like Epifanes Clear Varnish, or Pettit Flagship


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

eews said:


> i would absolutely stay away from Helmsman Spar Varnish- it is an inferior product- I've seen it fail in less than a year.
> 
> Try a real marine varnish like Epifanes Clear Varnish, or Pettit Flagship


Man-O-War varnish is also a very good product.

Valspar's wood division got spun off recently, but the company claims they are using it as a plug-and-play business model. So I'm sure nothing has changed, make it, sell it, ship it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

getrex said:


> My understanding is that multiple clear coats should be SOP regardless of what you use. The whole point of it is to protect the actual finish so that all you need to do is hit it with a maintenance coat every few years. Or am I wrong? Or maybe this only applies to brush work?


Now that I know what SOP means. 

I agree. With brushing, three coats is normal. With spraying, if I could lay it down, I would only do two, with the second being heavy.

However, I have switched to have switched over to Defthane Waterborne Spar, so I would spray a third coat of that cuz it dries quick enough. I know its not as good as the oil, but I dont have the option of leaving the door off overnight to dry., so I just explain to the clients that they might need to do maintanance coats more often, but its also easier to do, and they always go for it.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

I last used Helmsman WB Spar. Goes on super easy. Wish regular paint was that smooth.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

You could always take the weatherstripping off. That way the fully closed door will still lock and not make contact with the jamb. We use sikkens door and window a lot and that stuff takes forever to dry. It also sticks to any exterior door we've used it on even if there is not sikkens on there currently


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## canopainting (Feb 12, 2013)

Try to find a stain that is UV resistant. I have stained then sealed with general finishes and then finished with multiple coats containing UV resistant dye. I like what Journeyman said, I would keep it simple, you will gain experience and knowledge with each entry door you complete.


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

jr.sr. painting said:


> You could always take the weatherstripping off. That way the fully closed door will still lock and not make contact with the jamb. We use sikkens door and window a lot and that stuff takes forever to dry. It also sticks to any exterior door we've used it on even if there is not sikkens on there currently
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whaaat? that's crazy talk! Actually I have never thought to do a door without removing the WS because it takes three seconds per piece and that is saved ten fold with quality and labor.


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

journeymanPainter said:


> Don't gel stain. It won't hold up long term.
> 
> Sand the whole door down (it won't take as long as you think.
> Wash in wood brightener, or oxylic acid. Rinse, and give a quick sand.
> ...


Thank you - I've definitely decided to sand the whole door down as you've suggested, do a wood brightener and then stain. 

I'm not going to use a gel stain anymore - you suggest a wiping stain, so I'm looking at Old Masters Wiping stain but I'm not sure if I should be using a penetrating stain or a wiping stain. Not finding much about the difference between the two, but I'll keep looking. Do you have any suggestions either way?

I've decided to use a water based clear due to faster recoat time - this will suit this situation better I think. Looking at Old masters WB Spar...any experience with this product?

Thanks for your help!


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

woodcoyote said:


> Have you tried to sand, clean, and test a small spot with normal stain?
> 
> If the regular stain works, it seems to me like it may be best for you to go that route perhaps instead. The gel stains work good when you apply and wipe them off.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'll let you know how it works out!

Yes I've seen the faux work with gel stains and I'm just not interested in doing that - or at least, I have never done it and I'm not going to attempt it for the first time on this customer's door. 

I'm going to sand the door down fully now, use a wood brightener, stain, and clearcoat with a WB spar like Old Masters, or if you have any better suggestions for waterbased, I've love to hear them! Don't know if that is any better quality than Helmsman Spar - maybe it's a same *** different pile situation. Also wondering about your opinion on penetrating stain vs wiping stain. Going for Old Masters still.

Do you always remove the door for sanding and staining? I was planning to remove the weather stripping and do a little masking so I could leave the door on while doing all of this. This door is the only work at this location and with all the dry time factors (brightener, stain, clear coats), I'll be coming and going so I can't leave the house without a door. Bad idea?


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

RH said:


> I would suspect it will be tough to get the even look that the neighbor's door has, at least without more extensive sanding than it sounds like your customers want. If they are okay with a more consistently darker stained look, I have had success taking pretty badly messed up doors and getting them looking good without having to do extensive sanding.
> 
> My process is to sand as much as is possible (or practical) and then lay down a normal stain coat (I prefer Old Masters or Rudd). Then I take a tinted water based clear coat and mist on light successive layers of it using my HVLP - building up the color until a nice even, but not overly built up, look is achieved.
> 
> I believe it's Woodco who does a similar process using solvent based stain and lacquer thinner (1 to 5 ratio?). Maybe he will chime in.



Thanks! I've decided to try to sand to bare wood, as much as possible. Headed in Old Masters direction - no gel stain anymore. Wiping or penetrating. 

I'm going to use water based clear as well. I don't have an HVLP yet, but thanks to you and Woodco I've now done some research on them and I want to get one for down the road. Currently have an airless Titan 440i. Was going to spray clear, now contemplating brushing it since the door is a little rough...maybe that would help the clear get into the cracks etc. 

If I do spray though, curious about this tinting the clear. I've never done it. Can I get the store to tint it with the color of stain the clients choose? Or how does this work? Sounds like a good idea though.


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

Woodco said:


> I did this door recently. This door was about ten years old, and I dont think it had ever been coated.... I spent about 4 hours sanding and staining (both sides). I suggest you do the same. Yes, I have a method for tinting stuff/evening out stain. mix a little stain, with about 5 parts lacquer thinner, put it in a gravity feed, hold it about two feet from the surface, and go over it several times quickly. It will gradually get darker and darker. DONT try to get it really dark all at once. I do this AFTER I have applied a stain on it. This is merely to darken the stain further, not to replace the staining process! I dont suggest doing this over clear coats either, unless you use lacquer based stain. I did not do this with this door, BTW.
> 
> The darker the stain color you're doing, the less perfect you need to be about sanding. Orbital sand what you can, hand sand what you cant. The worse shape its in, the easier the sanding will be. I'd forget the gel stain if I was you



That door was looking rough, I can't believe how great it looks. It's beautiful. My hat is off. 

Thanks for the advice. I'm sanding it down and forgetting the gel stain. 

I'm unsure if I should get Old Masters Wiping Stain or Penetrating Stain. Maybe it's me but I've been reading up on it and I'm not finding out what the big difference is. Can I use both of these if I'm staining the door upright on the hinge instead of taking it off?


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Why wouldnt you spray the helmsman? I've done it plenty of times with no bad effects. I would probably just brush on that particular door, but Im curious as to why you wouldnt spray it?



Would you brush this particular door instead of spraying because it's old and weathered and the clear will get in the cracks better?


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## Leopard (Sep 3, 2017)

*Gel Stain or traditional*

Just my two cents worth as a new guy to the forum. Gel stain seems to be the go too stain/coloring for fiberglass doors. But not necessarily for wood and in this case, bleaching out the mold and hopefully whitening the damaged area followed with a preconditioner, stain and finish could be the best solution.

Specific to fiberglass doors, you will find manufacturers like Jeld-Wen, Feather River, Masonite and Thermador suggest gel stain for their fiberglass products. But neither they or wood only manufacturers suggest it for wood products. At least from what I have seen and read.

Let us know how it works out.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Fitzy said:


> Thanks, I'll let you know how it works out!
> 
> I'm going to sand the door down fully now, use a wood brightener, stain, and clearcoat with a WB spar like Old Masters, or if you have any better suggestions for waterbased, I've love to hear them! Don't know if that is any better quality than Helmsman Spar - maybe it's a same *** different pile situation. Also wondering about your opinion on penetrating stain vs wiping stain. Going for Old Masters still.
> 
> Do you always remove the door for sanding and staining? I'll be coming and going so I can't leave the house without a door. Bad idea?



My first thought is, you can skip the brightener. I wouldn't wast they money on it. Put that money toward a chemical stripper to get off any old sealer or residue instead, you'll money will be better placed there.

When you add a stain to wood, you don't necessarily need the wood to be brightened, that stuff is more for decks than a re-stain with a transparent stain. Your adding color anyway and when you clear coat, it'll bring the richness and color back out with the sealer. So my take on it: skip.

*WB Sealers:* Personally I've had good luck with General Finishes 450 exterior clears. They seem to hold up well to u.v. exposure and of course are designed to handle rain, etc. But our main concern out here is u.v. exposure, the sun fades things fast and destroys a lot of things. 

But I'd personally be very careful when using an oil based stain with a wb top coat. It can be done and I've done it without issue..BUT...I would suggest you test a sample or two out to make sure you don't have any hiccups in the process. On scrap of course, because after all you spent many hours sanding the real door down. 

I personally like to stick with water base stain, water base clear. Or oil/solvent based stain, oil/solvent based clear. Makes things much easier and I don't have to worry or think about compatibility issues. 

If you use fast drying products you could probably leave the door in place. Just depends, but if you plan on taking your time or really needing to work over the door with sanders, etc. then you'll need to take the door off.

The local door suppliers here (some lumber yards too) have temp-doors or temporary doors. Can be purchased for about $50-70 with a $15-20 return fee when brought back in to return. The purpose of them is basically to replace a door temporarily. 

They are used mostly in new construction to seal the house up but not put the nice front/back doors on with risk of damages via other trades. So they put temp doors on and then when the project is closer to completion, pop the hinges (return the door), and put the real door in.


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## Fitzy (Jan 9, 2017)

woodcoyote said:


> My first thought is, you can skip the brightener. I wouldn't wast they money on it. Put that money toward a chemical stripper to get off any old sealer or residue instead, you'll money will be better placed there.
> 
> When you add a stain to wood, you don't necessarily need the wood to be brightened, that stuff is more for decks than a re-stain with a transparent stain. Your adding color anyway and when you clear coat, it'll bring the richness and color back out with the sealer. So my take on it: skip.
> 
> ...




This is likely the best chunk of good solid info I could have ever gotten. My many thanks to you kind sir. I'm right in the thick of it now. I'll give details later, but at this point due to circumstances and changes in the weather, I'm going to do an oil based clear instead of waterbased on top of my oil based stain. I researched waterbased and knew my contenders well, but now that I'm looking for an oil based, input is good. I'm in Canada so I've realized sometimes I can't find the product being discussed but I found a furniture store that carries General Finishes. I'll call them tomorrow. I can't use the 450 like I planned though, I need to coat the door with the clear the day after I stain it and if I'm coating oil stain with water clear I should have more time. Also temps are getting low here which I've read that oil can withstand more than waterbased clears. 

Any info on a good oil based exterior clear from GF or Pro luxe or Old masters?


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

If you go with the oil base clear you can actually put the first coat on over an oil stain before it gets tacky. I've never done it myself but I watched someone do it a few times and it turned out really nice.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Fitzy said:


> This is likely the best chunk of good solid info I could have ever gotten.
> Any info on a good oil based exterior clear from GF or Pro luxe or Old masters?


Thanks, I try to give relevant information when possible. 

Here's my advise since your using oil based stain. I would pick a marine varnish. It has a longer open time (temperature dependent). 

*My vote goes to Man-O-War Varnish.* I've field tested it out and the stuff is good. I did a faux garage door with the man-o-war on it 2 years ago in gloss. Gloss is high and fading has been very minimal. For our climate out here that's a huge win in my book. 

I try to shy away from oils because the way we work, I require speed. So everything we use dries fast so we can process more and get more done. Oils just slow things down far too much for us, but there are occasions where we use it because its a better alternative for certain things (faux, etc. included). 

General Finishes has some decent products, never experimented with their oil line up too much. I have used the Enduro Amber finish and it works pretty well, but that wasn't used in an extreme environment like outside. So I don't have any real world feedback on that product's test of time. 

Epifanes also has a good reputation. But long story short, look for a marine varnish. It is meant to take extremes and generally weathers better than "normal" exterior sealers.


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