# Hiring Employees - Experienced or Not?



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok guys, do you prefer to hire experienced guys or guys (or girls) who seem to have a good personality, work ethic, and motivation, and train them?

I'll answer:

My first employee was an experienced guy. He's got 20 years on me. His first three months were excellent. Great work ethic, great skill, seemingly a great employee. Now that he knows I was impressed, things have slowed down. He's getting a little sloppy, a little slower, and when I bring the issues I am having up, he gets angry and doesn't want to hear it. It's been about two weeks now that I have been trying to work with him and get him to the point he was at earlier this summer but I am at the point where I am going to have to let him go and move on.

On the other hand, I hired a 23 year old without any experience about 4 months back. Great work ethic, great attitude despite the b*tchwork he gets stuck with on a regular basis and best of all - he will not leave a jobsite until everything I have asked him to do is done. He can't cut just yet, but I know he'll come around with practice and my bigger concern on a job is the prep. Spackling, sanding, caulking, and drywall repair is much more tedious to me than cutting in a wall. He costs me $5 per hour less than the experienced guy and works twice as hard.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Ok guys, do you prefer to hire experienced guys or guys (or girls) who seem to have a good personality, work ethic, and motivation, and train them?
> 
> I'll answer:
> 
> ...


I would take guy two, that's the guy I am looking for if he has anyone like him send'em my way.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

So the guy with 20 years experience is only making $5 more per hour than the rookie? That just might be the problem.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

I like to find young guys that have a few years exp. I really like to hire guys that i know whear they are comming from, a referral.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> So the guy with 20 years experience is only making $5 more per hour than the rookie? That just might be the problem.


 
depends, if the top guy is making $20 hour thats about right imo, if the rookie is making $15 a hour you Are over paying him. I have not found any guys with 20 year of experience worth paying a hourly rate. If they have 20 years they need to be piece or sub imo.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hey guys, let's not focus on the pay thing - truth be told, I rounded. My inexperienced guy makes $11 per hour. My experienced guy makes $18. Sorry for the mistake. The question has nothing to do with this. I'll ask again for those who can't read:

Do you prefer to hire experienced guys or someone without any experience?

One more thing: I like to think that I pay fairly - but - It will be 5 years before my inexperienced guy gets 18 per hour. However, probably only one year before he cuts at a professional level - in the long run - he'll cost me much less.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

better hope hes not reading this huh?


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> . I'll ask again for those who can't read:


If they or we cant read, asking again is not going to do any good. ha ha ha:jester:

I like guys with a couple years of exp, I do not like guys with 20 years exp working by the hour. I do not like guys with no exp.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

HA..... I guess so.

Truth is though, he knows. I wouldn't expect a 7 dollar an hour raise in less than 5 years. He has been told to expect about a dollar an hour per year. The faster he progresses, the faster he earns. I am a business man and I have to think like this though. And here's the thing I do with my employees - I think it's genius. All of my guys technically make minimum wage - $7.40 per hour. When they perform as asked and finish jobs on time, they get a bonus. This guys bonus right now is $3.60 per hour. When I have guys get off track at work, they are paid as if they were a basic laborer. When they stay on track and perform to their ability - they are paid accordingly.

When I am on the job site, all I have to say when my guys get lazy or behind is, "how much are you guys planning on making this week?" They jump back into gear and git r done.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You don't pay them hourly, how do you pay them? Sub? Salary?


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

I like the minimum wage with bonuses thing. Know of a couple companies who do that & they say it works great. A place my wife used to work would base you at minimum wage, but for every day you showed up & on time you got a $1 an hour more that week. Worked well on weeding out those who didn't want to work.

If I were to hire somebody, I'd want somebody with basic experience. Maybe a year or two. Those who have more are usually to hard headed to listen to your advice on how to do things & won't. Those with less take alot of time for training & you really need to watch over them for safety & accidents.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

We have both experienced and not.
I don't like hiring people that think they know everything.
We hire (and always fire) based on personality.
2 young guys we have are registered apprentices,
but personality rules anytime.
We like to train.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I like the guys with a couple of years of exp. Much more than that and they are set in their ways. If after 20yrs you don't have your own business or a high position in a larger company I think something is wrong.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

daren said:


> If after 20yrs you don't have your own business or a high position in a larger company I think something is wrong.


I agree, I have always wondered what the deal when I have a guy twice my age ask for work. It tells me that they have no motivation to advance. I had a guy once that stopped learning, he went 3 yrs making the same $ we ended up letting him go.
It depends on the personality. I would much rather have a motivated inexperienced guy. Than a unmotivated guy with experience, that thinks he knows it all.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This flies in the face of the advice we give all these guys who just went on their own and cant figure out how to price or get work. 

There aren't enough larger companies for people to go to and advance. This is one of the problems with our industry. As soon as someone gets a very basic level of proficiency as a painter, they think they should be on their own making the big bucks.

You will notice a high percentage of "companies" on this board that are one, maybe two man shows that either have no desire to grow or feel that they cant get good help. 

We do need experienced painters who want to work for a company, as well as companies that are built well enough to attract good experienced painters. Otherwise, there will just be a gazillion more one man shows driving prices down because they dont understand overhead and costs.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I prefer a mix. Guys who can do the job, and guys willing to learn to do the job. Most important is that they realize where their skill level is at.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This flies in the face of the advice we give all these guys who just went on their own and cant figure out how to price or get work.
> 
> There aren't enough larger companies for people to go to and advance. This is one of the problems with our industry. As soon as someone gets a very basic level of proficiency as a painter, they think they should be on their own making the big bucks.
> 
> ...


 
Scott, that is a very good insight, I have never thought of it that way before. Very good points made imo


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I agree that having an experienced guy is a good thing. I like a mix also. The problem is finding an experienced guy that won't bring his own bad habits or stubborness to the job. If I could find an experienced guy that did great work and left his ego or pride at home - I'd hire him over inexperience any day. The biggest problem I have found is that they don't want to be told how to do something quicker, faster, or better than they know how.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> The biggest problem I have found is that they don't want to be told how to do something quicker, faster, or better than they know how.


I would love to here some examples of this.

Also I have found for every 20 men you fire you find a good one.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I agree that having an experienced guy is a good thing. I like a mix also. The problem is finding an experienced guy that won't bring his own bad habits or stubborness to the job. If I could find an experienced guy that did great work and left his ego or pride at home - I'd hire him over inexperience any day. The biggest problem I have found is that they don't want to be told how to do something quicker, faster, or better than they know how.


What is your hiring process? Do you have an employee handbook and if so do you go through it before hiring? (We are working on one.) 

Reason I ask is to know how much "weeding out" you go through up front. What works and what doesn't.

I fired three last month and am going to be looking for more help before spring.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> This flies in the face of the advice we give all these guys who just went on their own and cant figure out how to price or get work.
> 
> There aren't enough larger companies for people to go to and advance. This is one of the problems with our industry. As soon as someone gets a very basic level of proficiency as a painter, they think they should be on their own making the big bucks.
> 
> ...


This is a very good observation. I believe it may be related to the fact that we have a very low start up cost. For just a few hundred $$ anyone can start a painting business just like I did. I think it is a reality of the trade we just have to deal with. There are many factors that determine how much we can charge and this is one of them. We overcome it by finding a way to stand out above the station wagon bandits. As many have said here, we sell value not price. I have many repeat customers because they know what I deliver. They know they can get a lower price but they also know they get what they pay for.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

WOW! A few hundrad dollars. Sounds like Sevs company. I just started a new painting company and I have over 18 grand in it. I gues it depends if you want to do it right


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

What did you spend 18K on:blink:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> WOW! A few hundrad dollars. Sounds like Sevs company. I just started a new painting company and I have over 18 grand in it. I gues it depends if you want to do it right


A brush, roller set up, couple of drop clothes, couple of ladders, 5 in 1 and a pot hook and I was up and running. A bit of reinvesting and the fun tools came as I needed them. If I have what I need to paint the house then I guess I am doing it right.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

daren said:


> A brush, roller set up, couple of drop clothes, couple of ladders, 5 in 1 and a pot hook and I was up and running. A bit of reinvesting and the fun tools came as I needed them. If I have what I need to paint the house then I guess I am doing it right.


 
This is all you really need. The broomstick in the customers closet makes a handy extension pole.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Daren,

How long have you been in business and what type of painting are you doing? It all adds up pretty quick. When I went out on my own I thought I could get by with the couple of ladders I had and a brush, roller, extension, and drop clothes. Boy was I wrong.

The first expense when you are a painter is getting that first client. We spent roughly $3000 in marketing to get our name out. Prior to that, our incorporation fees and licensing dues were about $1000 combined - That's $4000 total.

Then we got our first gig. I needed a 32' ladder to get to the peak of this home - $375.

Then we got our second gig - I needed a 12' A frame - $299

Then we got our third gig - I needed a sprayer to paint some cedar shake siding - $2500

The list goes on and on. When we got our first deck, I needed a power washer - $900.

You may think you can start a painting company with less than $1000. Guess what, you can't. Overall, I have invested $15,000 in our first year. Plus we just bought a new company truck so add $15,000 to that - $30,000 total.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I've been in business for 7 years. I've been painting for almost 20. Most of my work is residential repaints and drywall/plaster repairs. I started with $300. I reinvested and bought equipment as I needed it. Now my garage is full and I have a stack of ladders 5' high. It can be done because I did it.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Daren,

With your $300 how did you market yourself? Listen, I know, for a fact, that many painters start this way. It can be done until that call comes in where you need a tool you don't have - a sprayer - a power washer - a specific ladder. You can even get that first client without spending a dime by attending networking groups, offering free demos for the right people, etc. The problem is, you need to be ready with cash (or credit) in hand when the situations occur in which you need the proper tools to do a professional job. This is where a successful business plan comes into play. You did it and it worked for you. Great. But I think that more people (painters specifically) should plan on the unexpected before they quit their job and become a painter. Theres too many people out there that decide that they are now a painter because they have an old station wagon in the backyard and a couple of stepladders. This business is EASY to succeed in. All you have to do is outstanding work with even better customer service and you CAN make it. Many don't because they have improperly planned and don't have the assets to advance themselves and their company when the time comes.

Let's say that the first job you got was to paint an exterior cedar shake sided home. With only $300 you wouldn't have had the money to by the sprayer that you really need to get behind each one of those shakes. You would have had to turn the work down. That's not good business sense. When you are new, each and every client is vital to your success. That client may have had 15 wealthy friends to keep you busy for months. It's not that it can't be done, it's just that maybe it shouldn't.

Perhaps I worded my first post incorrectly


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I started back in 1992 with out any money, had the basic tools was given an apt complex contract by old boss and an exterior town home contract. Had to borrow a little money for ladders on the outside stuff finally got some credit in 95 and the rest was history, a one man show can certainly start out with little or no money Most guys dont jump the gate looking to hire five guys and send out 5 thousand post cards on the first day..


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You just made my point, you had to borrow some money. 

You don't have to spend tens of thousands, but I don't see it happening with $300 to your name, no credit, and no one to "borrow some money" from.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> You just made my point, you had to borrow some money.
> 
> You don't have to spend tens of thousands, but I don't see it happening with $300 to your name, no credit, and no one to "borrow some money" from.


true but I had less then 300 in the bank the day I started and borrowing 500$ to buy two ladders as I had one all ready isn't breaking the bank so to speak.. My point is you don't have to go crazy with the advertising.. you will be slow as you should have little or no overhead and it takes time to build a reputation...


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Daren,
> 
> How long have you been in business and what type of painting are you doing? It all adds up pretty quick. When I went out on my own I thought I could get by with the couple of ladders I had and a brush, roller, extension, and drop clothes. Boy was I wrong.
> 
> ...


Pin Man-- Your world may be different than someone elses. While I agree there is a certain amount of needed equipment to begin a painting business, experience in the trade and the ability to execute the work seems extremely important if you are going to have any chance at success. This point is probably so obvious, you just assumed a person going into painting contracting would have the experience as noted.

Required interior painting equipment:

Brushes-Roller frames and covers, 5 gallon bucket or two, paint tray or two-several different size step ladders, the ability to figure out difficult interior ladder set ups--other relatively minor and inexpensive sundries like spinner, broad knife and trowel, extension pole. 

As you mentioned, however, each new job brings new challenges and probably, if you are new, buying more equipment. You boot strap and reinvest in your business.

If you are doing a relatively simple job like a ranch interior, you can make a good buck with the initial equipment set-up.

Business wise--If you are a sole proprietor, you do not need to spend money on incorporation. Of course, there are business advantages to S corps and LLCs, but that process can come later.

I strongly encourage a business plan which includes marketing and a wide realm of other details. There is a ton of information on this site pertaining to business plans, options, and suggestions.

But--In my world of small town USA--I have found much success in the fact people know me, they trust me, I show up, do the work, get paid, and go on to my next job.

I have a beater truck, no logo, no business stationary. I have lots of equipment though. No scaffolds, or boom trucks--but one aresenal of ladders. The business folks here would say I own a job. That is probably true, but it is a job I manage, is self directed, and indepedent of a boss.

If you want to be a very successful painting business man, talk to some of the other folks here b/c I am relatively content running my own show and owning a pretty good paying painting job I created for myself.

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Let's say that the first job you got was to paint an exterior cedar shake sided home. With only $300 you wouldn't have had the money to by the sprayer that you really need to get behind each one of those shakes. You would have had to turn the work down. That's not good business sense. When you are new, each and every client is vital to your success. That client may have had 15 wealthy friends to keep you busy for months. It's not that it can't be done, it's just that maybe it shouldn't.
/quote]

You don't NEED a sprayer to do a cedar shake sided home. We have done many without a sprayer, and we own and use 3 sprayers. If a guy rolls up his sleeves, prices well and as JTP said, has the wherewithall to execute, he can do it with very little. We started on a shoe string, the knot of which was held together by our personal credit, and now have a corporate balance sheet that is not painful to look at. However, for every Daren, there are hundreds of Sevs.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Mak, 

I agree. As I said, spending thousands isn't necessary. Advertising doesn't have to be an expense at all if you are clever. But, people that are taking their first look at this site and seeing that someone says oh, all you need is $300 may decide to become painters like so many hack jobs already have. This IS A PROBLEM. Don't flood the industry with idiots. And don't let those idiots go bankrupt thinking that a couple of hundred bucks will make them their own boss.

You said your business started in 1992 for $500. 16 years has seen a bit of inflation. Don't you think your $500 back then would be at least $1000 now? A quality paint brush is $15-$30 - JUST FOR ONE! I once did an estimate for a guy that had not had his home painted since 1996. He had the old invoice in with the color swatches from back then. This guy paid $780 to have his home painted at $13 per hour! I estimated nearly $4000. He was shocked. Granted, our labor rates have changed quite a bit - but so have our material costs. Just because you did it then, doesn't mean you can now.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Vermont, there are some cedar shake sided homes that I have tried to paint without a sprayer and it is very difficult. What's more, if the shake is too thick and spaced too tight, there is no way to get into the gaps without a sprayer. 

You argue to argue. Just shut up already. If you have three sprayers, why would you even attempt to paint cedar shake without it? Do you pay your employees to waste their time? I'd pay my employees to wipe my a$$ before I paid them to brush or roll shake. And did you even read my previous post? I said that you didn't need thousands - But these days going into a paint store with $300 to get all the equip you need to be a painter isn't going to get you far. You said you need a couple of five gallon buckets, right? Thats about 5% of your $300. If you choose to use Aura on your first one bedroom repaint, plan on spending $100. Another $25 for ceiling paint. Look, half your money is gone before you even look at a ladder. Maybe you can be a true pro and use the fiver as your step stool until you finish that first job and get paid.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I would think that most guys that start out with little or no money will choose to do residential re paints (less equipment to buy)and the occasional easy exterior and work there way up from there. Also will use cheap paint... Certainly my first years I wish i could do all over again... 

I would think also that most guys who start out have some exp. (let's hope)


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I've seen some rough work by beginners who decided that painting their garage was plenty of experience.

I also must say that picking and choosing your work when you begin must be tough. I prefer interior work. Easy, straight forward. Cut some clean lines and learn your way around a tube of caulk and some spackle and your all set. But when I started, I didn't care what the call was for. And, when you don't yet have a reputation, you get all the odds and ends calls that everyone else turned down. I would take those jobs and run with them. Paint a garage door, stain a pier, whatever it was, I was money hungry and just looking for someone to tell their friend how good of a job Pinnacle did. I needed more specialty tools to start then I will ever need to use now.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> You said you need a couple of five gallon buckets, right? Thats about 5% of your $300. If you choose to use Aura on your first one bedroom repaint, plan on spending $100. Another $25 for ceiling paint. Look, half your money is gone before you even look at a ladder. Maybe you can be a true pro and use the fiver as your step stool until you finish that first job and get paid.


 
Pin

This makes no sense. 

I think you are taking things personally again. All I was saying, is that its possible to start without thousands of dollars and make it. I could show you shingle sided houses that we have brushed and been profitable on, but that would be counterproductive at this point. In your two years as an owner, things have been a certain way. That's great, but there are dozens of guys here with 2 and 5 and 10 and 20 and 25 years of this business who are probably getting a kick out of your passionate stances on things that you really dont know much about yet.

It's possible to make it without a business plan. Its also possible to not make it when you claim you wife is a CPA and you dont know the difference between salary and profit.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

There you go again Vermont - arguing to argue - not answering the question. Is $500 in 1992 what it is now??? Could you currently start a painting business with less than $1000???

Look, I have accepted the fact that you are semi-retarded. You keep saying stop taking things personally but you follow me to each post and have a negative jab to throw my way. Your view on salary and profit from, what, 2 months ago isn't exactly relevant to this particular conversation. However, you haven't answered the question I asked you back then either - so here it is one more time - lets see if we get a straight answer instead of another jab at me personally:

When you die, will your business die with it?
When you sell your company, will you sell your business account with it? 
When you decide to retire and close your company account, will the money in it go with you, or with the now, non-existent company?

Sorry, I asked three questions. I am trying to get a point across. Salary and profit are separated by business owners to determine what will go back into the company for expenses, growth, etc. In the end, however, your salary is directly related to your profit (your salary can't be $100,000 if your company only winds up making $80,000) and your profit, at some point in time, is your salary. You may not take the money out for 1, 2, 3, or 30 years, but at some point, when you close the books for good, that money is no longer the companies, it's yours. Why? You ignorantly ask, because you are the company. Without you, the company is no longer.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Pin--

I am an old guy for the painting trade. For the last two years, I have taken work without regard to physical requirements--in other words, lots of pretty high work--from 25 to 65 feet in the air. Granted--the 65 foot job was done with a boom. All the other work--required 28 to 40 foot ladders for the high trim. I have prepped thousands of feet of farm house clap board, bent over--looking up at countless yellow jacket and wasp nests, and sweet talked a couple of bats I woke up. I've taken work younger and better painters didn't want--too hard--too much ladder work- and so on. If people were willing to pay my price, give me a deposit, they get on the schedule.

Work ethic overcomes a lot of practical obstacles. If you show up every working day, produce results, and practice the do unto others formula, you will succeed is just about anything you do. Quickly?? I don't think so--but success will come. 

If you are painting a horse fence, know how to do it the right way. I have asked many technical questions here and received great solutions to situations I needed help with. One such suggestion was the use of brown exterior carpenter's glue for sealing pine knots--worked great.

In order to provide a valid service, you have to have the right equipment and experience. In other words, you must be able to execute and produce a finished product. Some jobs require more equipment than others. You can have lots of equipment and still produce terrible work.

Some old timers yet can paint with 10 inch block brush and cut a line like you wouldn't believe. Try telling them you have to roll the ceiling or else you'll leave brush marks. 

I am simply mentioning that the best way to do a job and build a business is to be sincere, honest, be willing to learn, teach, and mature gracefully.

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> There you go again Vermont - arguing to argue - not answering the question. Is $500 in 1992 what it is now??? Could you currently start a painting business with less than $1000???
> 
> *Yes.*
> 
> ...


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*Sit by the feet of the Master*

Hey--

Here's a brand new idea:

Find a painter you admire, runs an excellent business, has more work than he/she can handle. Study the operation, ask lots of questions, write down a few answers. Keep studying and learning and doing. How many mistakes and pitfalls will you avoid? A sh_t load.

If you want to do it your way, it's really fine. Some learn easy, some learn hard, some don't learn at all.

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I bet that its possible for a young painter to sit at his own feet.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

So with your business, you would hand over every cent in the bank account?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> So with your business, you would hand over every cent in the bank account?


Depends what month it is and who I am handing it to. 

What does this have to do with anything, by the way?

Would you please just answer the question?


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You keep stating the two year thing - I ran a company well before I started my own. You are arguing semantics and still didn't answer yes or no to just about the easiest questions I could have possibly asked. Hence the semi-retarded comment.

Stop following me to posts. If you read the Behr post you wouldn't have made that dumb comment either.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

You didn;t ask a question. So, I didn't answer


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I mentioned my total years of experience for a reason. By doing so I figured you would assume that I already had the basic tools before I started the business. I did fail to mention that I did not quit my day job until I had landed my first "big" job ($8500) and negotiated a payment schedule that let the job cash flow itself. As many painters do I had been doing side jobs at night and weekends for years so a customer base had been building already. When word got out that I was on my own the same people started calling with bigger jobs. I have not needed to advertise. I focus on building relationships with the people I want to work with. Most new customers already trust me because someone else told them about me.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

This has to do with your salary. Can you pay your salary when the phone doesn't ring for a month? Not a tough questoin, the answer is no. So once again, your salary is directly related to your profit.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Daren, I didn't know that so ok, fair enough. My comments are directed to the fool that thinks daddys station wagon and a two step is the way to the big money. Sorry if I offended you.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> You keep stating the two year thing - I ran a company well before I started my own.


Are you *sure* you ran your uncles company before you went out on your own, or did you paint for him? Don't make Timhag go through the archives and contradict you. 

Would you please just answer the question?


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Monte Man,

Re-inventing the wheel is a real challenge. If only we all could stop defending our own positions and listen to the other person.

What offends others is our often self-righteous tone about how good we are and how dumb they are.

Doesn't matter what point you are trying to make. If the other people reading perceive us talking down to them, defensive mode kicks in.

I think we need to convey our views in a manner conducive to being positively received.

This point pertains to the very many experienced people here who run into all sorts of red herrings when trying to give excellent input.

How about it? I have great respect for your judgement and business acumen. Or, should I just take my basketball and go home?

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JTP said:


> What offends others is our often self-righteous tone about how good we are and how dumb they are.
> JTP


Very true. Pin does keep using the term "half retarded". Whether he has been in this business for 2 years or 20, we can certainly all learn from him.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Daren, I didn't know that so ok, fair enough. My comments are directed to the fool that thinks daddys station wagon and a two step is the way to the big money. Sorry if I offended you.


 
Sorry but most of the most succesful companys I know started this way, it the school of hard knox, with desire. The way you start name calling and think you know everything is really getting old, :yes:


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## kdubya (Oct 2, 2008)

Holy Thread jack Paintman!!
I was unskilled once, weren't we all? someone hired me and I learned the trade. When I first went to work in construction I spent yrs w/ either a broom or a shovel, before I ever got to touch a hammer or saw. it sucked, its called paying your dues. 
If a guy has good attitude, work ethic, common sense and no drug or alcohol issues you can teach him your way. I've seen too many skilled guys that were prima donas (in every industry). Skill and attitude make a professional.
When looking at someone w/ 20 yrs and they dont have their own company, there are guys that dont want to go it on their own, worry about marketing, bidding, collecting, payroll, taxes, maybe they would rather spend time w/ their family. They just want to do a job, get paid and go home at the end of the day, nothing wrong w/ that, just different priorities.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

When I look back 10-15 years, we had a good 4x4 truck with a rack, ladders, and hand tools. We didnt have multiple trucks and vans, a full service shop, the ability to run more than one crew, and enough sprayers and pressure washers for each crew...but we could do fine going back to where we came from.

I have said it in the past, and I will say it here...when you know how to start the fire, you never forget how to start the fire. Sometimes we get traffic through here that just got a spark off the flint for the first time and dont realize they are talking to a room with alot of guys with pockets full of lighters.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

well Pinhead, hows this for a start up story.
I was 15, this guy came into my moms store, told her that he needed some help restoring his building and he knew she had an able bodied son. So I got my older brother to drive me out there, worked for $10 an hour demolishing, cleaning, insulating, putting up vapor barriers, and painting. I kind of took a knack to the painting. He had this one man show kinda guy, real good painter, come do some work, and I shadowed him for a bit. then The original guy's friend needed some painting done. So I painted out there for $12 an hour. I had probably 3 brushes, two of which were given to me, 1 roller frame, one roller pan, some canvas I found in my dads garage for drops, and no idea what I was doing other than a steady cutting hand. It was about $120 worth of painting stuff. I used kilz and top coated with behr paint (seriously) that the HO bought. And then I found my self needing some help painting that guys house. So I started bringing along a friend. I realized it was way better to work with 2 people, not just by myself. Keep in mind I was just half way through high school at this point. Then the original guy's friend whos house I had worked on, his girlfriend needed some painting. So I packed up my rolling tool box ($40, made me look professional) and headed over there. I spent a whole day sanding her screen porch, 5 days staining it with 5 coats of sikkens that she bought. I was working nights and weekends, working 10, 12, 14 hour days when I could. Still had about $120, maybe 150 in painting stuff. Then she was going to have a party and needed the front of her house painted. It was thursday afternoon and her party was at 4:30 the next day. Her boyfriend went out and bought me a wagner paint crew and paint eater combo pack. I brought 2 friends and boy, we got it done, even though we showed up and it was sprinkling until 10:30 and at one point the spray gun started spewing paint all over the place because it didnt get tightened properly. We were coming down off the ladder (the boyfriends) from cutting the last corner as the first guest arrived. Then her friend needed some painting. Then she needed her whole inside of her house repaired and repainted. then her friends friend needed some painting. I was bidding at $15 an hour, got every job, worked till it got dark, sometimes even brought out my $20 lights I got at Menards. I bought one ladder, and articulated one that would be an 8' step or 16' straight if I needed it. Also let me take on difficult stairway challenges. At this point I had $280 in my painting business. And my highschool buddies were all jealous of the money I was making. Eventually I got my first whole exterior through my windowcleaning buddy for one of his clients. I save money so I was able to afford a Graco 490 and a couple of extension ladders (those crappy Louisville ones). I subbed to my window cleaning buddy for $600 for letting me use his hardest worker and his ladders and van. We got it done, made a pretty penny, paid for the sprayer, I had two people working for me and I would just add equipment as needed. I still do not own a pressure washer, I rent it when I need it. I plan on purchasing a great one next spring. 

So absolutely you can start a painting business. And for much less than $300. And I bet I could find a similar business that I knew nothing about and start it for less than $300.
The key is that you pay attention and learn from everything that happens.

Scott tends to stay very objective in his posts and rarely just tries to cause trouble. If you think he is half or semi retarded, why don't you ask his clients? Or maybe his paint reps. Or his accountant. 

Now I have wasted too much of my evening typing this and must get back to work (darn painttalk).


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> well Pinhead, hows this for a start up story.
> I was 15, this guy came into my moms store, told her that he needed some help restoring his building and he knew she had an able bodied son. So I got my older brother to drive me out there, worked for $10 an hour demolishing, cleaning, insulating, putting up vapor barriers, and painting. I kind of took a knack to the painting. He had this one man show kinda guy, real good painter, come do some work, and I shadowed him for a bit. then The original guy's friend needed some painting done. So I painted out there for $12 an hour. I had probably 3 brushes, two of which were given to me, 1 roller frame, one roller pan, some canvas I found in my dads garage for drops, and no idea what I was doing other than a steady cutting hand. It was about $120 worth of painting stuff. I used kilz and top coated with behr paint (seriously) that the HO bought. And then I found my self needing some help painting that guys house. So I started bringing along a friend. I realized it was way better to work with 2 people, not just by myself. Keep in mind I was just half way through high school at this point. Then the original guy's friend whos house I had worked on, his girlfriend needed some painting. So I packed up my rolling tool box ($40, made me look professional) and headed over there. I spent a whole day sanding her screen porch, 5 days staining it with 5 coats of sikkens that she bought. I was working nights and weekends, working 10, 12, 14 hour days when I could. Still had about $120, maybe 150 in painting stuff. Then she was going to have a party and needed the front of her house painted. It was thursday afternoon and her party was at 4:30 the next day. Her boyfriend went out and bought me a wagner paint crew and paint eater combo pack. I brought 2 friends and boy, we got it done, even though we showed up and it was sprinkling until 10:30 and at one point the spray gun started spewing paint all over the place because it didnt get tightened properly. We were coming down off the ladder (the boyfriends) from cutting the last corner as the first guest arrived. Then her friend needed some painting. Then she needed her whole inside of her house repaired and repainted. then her friends friend needed some painting. I was bidding at $15 an hour, got every job, worked till it got dark, sometimes even brought out my $20 lights I got at Menards. I bought one ladder, and articulated one that would be an 8' step or 16' straight if I needed it. Also let me take on difficult stairway challenges. At this point I had $280 in my painting business. And my highschool buddies were all jealous of the money I was making. Eventually I got my first whole exterior through my windowcleaning buddy for one of his clients. I save money so I was able to afford a Graco 490 and a couple of extension ladders (those crappy Louisville ones). I subbed to my window cleaning buddy for $600 for letting me use his hardest worker and his ladders and van. We got it done, made a pretty penny, paid for the sprayer, I had two people working for me and I would just add equipment as needed. I still do not own a pressure washer, I rent it when I need it. I plan on purchasing a great one next spring.
> 
> So absolutely you can start a painting business. And for much less than $300. And I bet I could find a similar business that I knew nothing about and start it for less than $300.
> ...



what are you bidding out at now 18$ an hour??


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> what are you bidding out at now 18$ an hour??


Nah, the "going rate" here is only $17. But thats great to make $17 an hour right? Most people only make 10 or 12 or 14 right?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Nah, the "going rate" here is only $17. But thats great to make $17 an hour right? Most people only make 10 or 12 or 14 right?


But wait a minute, if theres three of you in the field, then you are charging $51/man hr right? :jester:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Namicon--Great start up story. 

JTP


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

If you were successful, whatever your view of success is (this applies to all), then it doesn't matter how you started. And arguing semantics over profit and salary all day will get none of us anywhere because everyones view will be slightly different. I don't care if others agree how my business is run. I don't care how you run yours. If you are making your money, and I am making mine, then all is well. If I wanted a business seminar, I would go to businesstalk.com. I wouldn't (no offense) come onto a website and ask a bunch of painters how they run theirs. We agree to disagree and can do so respectfully. I am not changing my mind on thinking that those with no experience should not jump jump into our trade. If you think that inexperienced painters are ok in our field and you aren't tired of dealing with all of the problems that these folks have left for us (SW A 100 painted on a deck floor by SEV for example) then I think you take an odd position. The other problem created by this is the fact that our clients are less trusting when they have been burned before. If you don't have any experience, go get a job as a painter. Stick with it at least a few years. Then, if you get good and want to start with no money - have at it. If it works, more power to you. And if it doesn't, I wouldn't be surprised. When you are talking about initial start up, you are talking about a few hundred bucks because you are thinking of that first initial job. I am talking about first year start-ups. My first year saw $30,000 in start-up costs. This is probably way above average. But I have to say that in a full year of painting, you are going to run into more circumstances that will need far more tools than a ladder and some rollers. If you pick and choose the work you do, then you could choose to stick with those initial tools for your entire career. I thought that I was talking to a bunch of guys with huge businesses as many of you state - not a bunch of one man interior operations whose big expense is a pivot tool.

I am not trying to stir a debate. I never should have touched this topic because I am an opinionated person and I don't care if I have been painting one week. I just think that in this economy, with so many tradesmen out there struggling, it's not a great time to just try to wing it.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> But wait a minute, if theres three of you in the field, then you are charging $51/man hr right? :jester:


nah, cause since I don't have any over head and all the profit is my salary, I make 17 an hour, and each of my workers gets 11.50 I only charge $40 per hour when I have a big job that I need all three for. That seems to be what the fancy painters around here get, $40 an hour.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Pin- You make a lot of good points. I don't think anyone disagreed with you regarding beginning a painting business with no experience.

Take a deep breath--we are all opinionated. We sometimes think because our way worked for us, it should work for someone else. I've been trying to point out that my style and your style may be equally successful given our individual goals in life.

Any poorly executed job bodes ill for that specific trade. I do know I started my business with nothing and ended up with more than something.

JTP


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> If you were successful, whatever your view of success is (this applies to all), then it doesn't matter how you started.
> oh, we have to be successful for our story to count? Damit. Well I wouldn't say I have hit success, but so far all the bills are paid.
> And arguing semantics over profit and salary all day will get none of us anywhere because everyones view will be slightly different.
> While my views on this subject are less strong than Brians or Scotts, I do know that the business needs to have a bank account and the owner still needs a personal one. I wish mine were more separated (dam online banking lets me transfer to easily)
> ...


and another disclaimer, Neps did not give me permission to use his name in a post :whistling2:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Daren, I didn't know that so ok, fair enough. My comments are directed to the fool that thinks daddys station wagon and a two step is the way to the big money. Sorry if I offended you.


Why would I be offended? My skin is thicker than that. You didn't even say anything about my mother. Now if you said, your moma is so fat, when I got done f***ing her, I rolled over twice and I was still on the b**ch. Then we would have a problem.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow Daren. That's quite a statement. Thank you for the input on my mother. I have been thinking about her whorish ways for a while and wondering if she is still spending her evenings on the corner. You have confirmed my fears. And, I told her to stay on her Ultra 90 supplements but I just can't get through to her. For this, again, I apologize.


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

What's wrong with this pinnacle guy,Ive recently moved to a bigger city to expand and been off the site for a while now but still look at the post every now and then.I was looking at this one and that guy seemed to go into a tizzy when he heard about the 300 dollar startup cost.I scrolled down and every post he made was talking about ceder shake,cedar shake,you need a $2500.00 sprayer to do cedar shake then it was gotta have a new truck gotta have this gotta have that.So then I decided to skip thru to check out the last page,and there he was again still talking about his big business pretending to be respectful but still being a prick his ego will not allow him to just say,well if you had a few tools and a vehicle that can haul ladders from ponit A to point B an opportunity comes along then go for it,(but stay away from cedar shake)I can't gaurantee you'll make but,If you don't try I can gaurantee you won't make it.But instead he has to say no sprayer,no llc,no money,I have a PERSONAL business consultant for my needs,not your personal consultant MINE.A used station wagon ha you need $3000.00 just to advertise,paper flyers wont cut it,every body knows when you first start you only do cedar shake and that takes a $2500.00 sprayer;and lets not forget about the truck $15000.00 minumum not financed I'm talkin cash if you can't do it like me then just don't do it.Forget about making extra money stick with your regular hourly wages untill you can figure out how to do it like me,just like me,excactly like me,me me me me me me,and no other way than mine.(then changed up and said)But if that's what you wan't to do(be an idiot)then have at it(sucker)I'm not saying my way is the recommendable but It just kind of happended I had 30 g's lying around and said why not,I'll just buy a sprayer and cedar shake siding here comes pinnacle.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

nextlevelpaintco. said:


> What's wrong with this pinnacle guy,Ive recently moved to a bigger city to expand and been off the site for a while now but still look at the post every now and then.I was looking at this one and that guy seemed to go into a tizzy when he heard about the 300 dollar startup cost.I scrolled down and every post he made was talking about ceder shake,cedar shake,you need a $2500.00 sprayer to do cedar shake then it was gotta have a new truck gotta have this gotta have that.So then I decided to skip thru to check out the last page,and there he was again still talking about his big business pretending to be respectful but still being a prick his ego will not allow him to just say,well if you had a few tools and a vehicle that can haul ladders from ponit A to point B an opportunity comes along then go for it,(but stay away from cedar shake)I can't gaurantee you'll make but,If you don't try I can gaurantee you won't make it.But instead he has to say no sprayer,no llc,no money,I have a PERSONAL business consultant for my needs,not your personal consultant MINE.A used station wagon ha you need $3000.00 just to advertise,paper flyers wont cut it,every body knows when you first start you only do cedar shake and that takes a $2500.00 sprayer;and lets not forget about the truck $15000.00 minumum not financed I'm talkin cash if you can't do it like me then just don't do it.Forget about making extra money stick with your regular hourly wages untill you can figure out how to do it like me,just like me,excactly like me,me me me me me me,and no other way than mine.(then changed up and said)But if that's what you wan't to do(be an idiot)then have at it(sucker)I'm not saying my way is the recommendable but It just kind of happended I had 30 g's lying around and said why not,I'll just buy a sprayer and cedar shake siding here comes pinnacle.


Funny stuff. :laughing:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Funny stuff. :laughing:


for sure, just wish they had typed it in a more readable format.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

As for starting on $300... I think it's possible depending on which direction you are going. When I first started off on my own I was hooked up with a couple of remodeling companies who subbed me out the painting. It was all interior work.

Bought 2 Wooster Extension Poles, 9" frame, 18" frame, and 2 buckets. Already had the basic hand tools, but even if I didn't I would've been ok. Adding them all up plus a 5/1, 4 brushes, caulking gun, pole sander, utility knife, screw drivers, taping knifes, mud pan, 3 drops, shop vac, wire brush, and 6 foot step.

My total would only be $320.00. I bought good tools, so I could've probably knocked $50 atleast off that total if I chose "ok" tools.

Now when you bid the jobs, you're not bidding for your wage + materials. You have markups, profits, etc. So by the time I finished one interior I'd have over a grand to play with on whatever I wanted. From that one job you can buy a decent sprayer & a few ladders. Next job you can buy a pressure washer and any more ladders you need. So long as you're not like many who low ball, don't make crap, then blow what they did make rather than re-invest it, you can start out pretty easy with minimum cash. That is depending on where you want to start though.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Some day I'll tell you about my $300.00 job that I had $317.00 in materials for

oops:jester:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

JNLP said:


> As for starting on $300... I think it's possible depending on which direction you are going. When I first started off on my own I was hooked up with a couple of remodeling companies who subbed me out the painting. It was all interior work.
> 
> Bought 2 Wooster Extension Poles, 9" frame, 18" frame, and 2 buckets. Already had the basic hand tools, but even if I didn't I would've been ok. Adding them all up plus a 5/1, 4 brushes, caulking gun, pole sander, utility knife, screw drivers, taping knifes, mud pan, 3 drops, shop vac, wire brush, and 6 foot step.
> 
> ...


This is similar to how I did it. I worked 12hrs a day for 18 days straight on that $8500 job. $1000 in materials. $7500 for me. Paid all my bills left $3500 back in the business and I was off and running.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daren said:


> This is similar to how I did it. I worked 12hrs a day for 18 days straight on that $8500 job. $1000 in materials. $7500 for me. Paid all my bills left $3500 back in the business and I was off and running.


Please refer to the last line of post #33 in this thread. :thumbup:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> However, for every Daren, there are hundreds of Sevs.


here is the last line of #33 for those to lazy to look 'er up.


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## nextlevelpaintco. (Jun 21, 2007)

Periodicly,we hire a hand full of workers from our local temp service to do jobs such as preping cielings,walls and floors,sweeping dry fall,cleaning equipment,and general cleaning they seem to have alot more get up and go compared to the full time employeees,but cannot compare to the speed and no hassle advantages of an experienced painter.


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## Tony Coats (Oct 12, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Daren, I didn't know that so ok, fair enough. My comments are directed to the fool that thinks daddys station wagon and a two step is the way to the big money. Sorry if I offended you.


Sorry to bump this old thread but I had to laugh at this guys posts.

The guy I work for now was living in a small 1 bedroom apartment 8 years ago with a newborn baby and wife. He was working for a guy (for about 6 years) who laid him off 3 weeks before Christmas with a small bonus, like clock work, til one year he gets laid off but no bonus, so he tells his boss to stick it up his a#s. 

He borrowed a step ladder off a friend, bought a couple brushes, roller setups, drops, an extension pole and put an ad in the paper for $80. All with the small amount of money they saved back for Christmas. 
His work truck was what He was driving. a beat up, dented Ford FESTIVA!!! Boy it looked funny with the hatch open and a couple 16 ft ladders he borrowed hanging out the back. He bought stuff as he went. After a few months he got a beater van, then a bit nicer van less than a year later.

Not even two years after he told his boss to shove it, he bought a 4 bedroom house. Now, 8 years later, he's driving a 1950's hot rod for his cruiser, a 2006 caddy for his wife and a nice 2005 econoline for work. He keeps me busy and is always throwing me my own jobs and trying to inspire me to start a business, even taking me on his bids to show me how he does it, even though he says how he'd hate to loose me as a worker, he wants me to succeed like he did. He says he don't mind the competition, and there is plenty of work to go around. On top of all this, he dosent advertise one bit! ALL word of mouth, repeats and paint stores sending him work.

I just thought I'd post that story since some of the idiotic posts in this thread and on this forum, saying how you need money to start, really piss me off. I hate people who try to discourage others. Any monkey can start a painting business, it just takes hard work and persistence to succeed. :thumbup:


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## Calist (Jul 19, 2009)

I only hire experienced painters, Min. of 5 years. The reason for this is I may have to send 1 painter to job 1, and another to job 2. If I have a guy who needs constant supervision then I'm limited to the amount of jobs I can do per week. In theory, 2 painters should finish a job twice as fast. But it seldom works that way. They get to bs'n and it slows down productivity.

The way my business model is set up, I book each painter individually.

I have 2 painters, Painter 1 gets booked by job and time for week 1, 2nd painter gets booked the same week by job and time. If I have a day or two where one painter isn't busy, he moves over to help the other guy and I adjust the schedule. This allows me to book more time and thus get more jobs done in a week.


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## Calist (Jul 19, 2009)

Irrelivant post by me.


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