# Warning: long post: HEELLLLPPPP!!!!!!!! me save my a**!!



## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi all, 

I have quickly scanned paint talk (about 45 min) for info about Peel Bond, and have gone to their website, too. Very compelling! And I need your advice!! I have a cardboard box over my head for protection from all the "what are you, an idiot?" rotten tomato comments headed my way. They are somewhat deserved... but I prefer to think of myself as having greatness thrust upon me... (and will gladly go for having "Adequateness Thrust Upon Me").

I am in over my head on approx 8500 sq ft exterior job that I believe is underbid, and yet, "was by no means the lowest bidder" according to homeowner. (It was quoted for me by an exterior painter I partner with, superior at running exteriors than I, who has not been on the job yet in 3 weeks...) But I think I can save the job! The way I would have done this house (and had begun to approach it before realizing I was going to be in deep doo doo) would cost 60K and not 20K. So I have to go quicker and still be good enough! 

Scraping is FAR worse in places than anticipated. Will be purchasing dust sucking equipment (already have, am returning, a story for another post ). Job was estimated at about 480 hrs, I realize. We've spent about 60 hours just scraping the worst section, of about 500 sq ft. 12% of labor on 5% of the job. YAIGHHHHH!!!!!! TAnd the rest of the house is only moderately better. This is very embarrassing to admit to you all. (The actual painting is going very fast, however.)

This is my last house for the season, we are in Maine, we've had a lot of rain this October. I have painted successfully into November using Resilience from SW for the previous two seasons. The customer is aware that the job may (HA! WILL!) go into next year.

So my 2 primary questions--is Peel Bond good for 35 degrees like the SW acrylic latex exterior wood primer I have been using? It has been in the 60s and 50s days, 50s and 40s nights, just beginning to drop into night time 30s. Should have a good week next week, 4 good days, nite temps 40s. I don't usually apply anything below 45 degrees.

Do I have to put Peel Bond on heavy for the bonding action to work? I am more concerned with the bonding action and drying time than the filling action. I want durable. Pretty will have to wait for another time, on this house.

Also, my plan--if peel bond is the way to go---please critique or affirm--is this--buy the grinder w/shroud from the paint shaver people. Minimum scraping, go over with grinder using a bit of finesse (my people are capable), and spray, brush or roll peel bond, as appropriate. Then do resilience, which is the product I am the least worried about. I had gotten some advice about the ras 115 grinder from festool from Vermont Painter, as well--my partner pushed the paint shaver people and I got stuck in the head around it.

Any ideas? I'm climbing into my cardboard box right now...

And thanks in advance, for your advice.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Apply at between 40-100 degrees.
http://www.ximbonder.com/upload/pdfs/Peel%20Bond%20Data%20Sheet%201146%202%2015%202010.pdf


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

Info on Peel Bond:

http://www.peelbond.com/pdf/PeelBondHowTo.pdf

In general you can google the product and go to the manufacturers website to find out the coolest it can be applied in.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Some greek philosopher was quoted to have said...'There is no Royal road to Geometry'. The same could be said of painting - there are no shortcuts to prep. Get a self priming paint and just get it painted with standard issue prep. Manage the job - figure out what your 'budget' is for prep and stick to it. Paint it and be done with it. You'll be surprised at how sometimes lower quality paint jobs will last. Your better off risking this and do some touchups next year. You will be doing touchups next year no matter how much labor or production you throw into the job. Better quality jobs don't really factor until 5-6-7 years later, that's when you realize a better quality job leads to less prep down the road.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> Some greek philosopher was quoted to have said...'There is no Royal road to Geometry'. The same could be said of painting - there are no shortcuts to prep. Get a self priming paint and just get it painted with standard issue prep. Manage the job - figure out what your 'budget' is for prep and stick to it. Paint it and be done with it. You'll be surprised at how sometimes lower quality paint jobs will last. Your better off risking this and do some touchups next year. You will be doing touchups next year no matter how much labor or production you throw into the job. Better quality jobs don't really factor until 5-6-7 years later, that's when you realize a better quality job leads to less prep down the road.


I wanted to write something like this but I could not word it properly.

My basic feeling was, why spend so much money on Peel Bond to just have it fail from improper prep. Peel Bond is a real "warranty extender" addition to a job that constitutes a higher price. IT does not safe you from scraping and sanding, so do that, spot prime bare wood and paint it!!


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I like the responses so far from the first three replies and I bet you do too! So now lets keep it going in this direction. 

I will say that I think it is ok and I am glad that you can ask a question and ask for help. It is so easy to get overwhelmed and then get overwhelmed with not producing what you thought you wanted to have happen. 

These are the elements that define you and your company. You don't give up and I don't recommend compromising anything regarding my stated/documented scope of work. Getting it done is the key. There is quite a difference from 20k to 60k. maybe you mean that exactly, maybe you don't.

Just keep moving and I hope that it unfolds to everyones benefit and that you learn to ride the stress and weather and to be very thoughtful again and again in bidding. I consistanly think I am faster than I am---

I don't think anyone "deserves" unnecessary comments and I refuse to belief there are any folks in here that have not been somewhere close to your predicament anywhere in their painting business history. 

Holly- I hope the best for you and your paint partner and the situation to be all ok, in the end.

So- I don't offer any solution or a** saving tips. Just hang in there support.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Dan and Coby. 

Holly, not beating you up, but 60 hours on 500 sqft doesn't add up. What type of scrapers you using, what the siding?

I've done numerous 100-ish old, 2.5 story homes (lots of layers and ugliness) that are 500-600 sqft a wall. Takes me a day or two to scape (carbide tip scrapers that I flip and replace constantly), power sand, and prime by myself. 

I used Peel Bond a few times this summer. Its effects weren't as great as I had hoped in reading about it. Like the other guys, I don't feel it will save your butt in itself. If you do go that way, I found either just brushing or spraying and brushing was the best method. 

Don't hesitate to buy quality sanders, they, on the otherhand will save your butt. :thumbsup:


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Apply at between 40-100 degrees.
> http://www.ximbonder.com/upload/pdfs/Peel Bond Data Sheet 1146 2 15 2010.pdf





Dunbar Painting said:


> Info on Peel Bond:
> 
> http://www.peelbond.com/pdf/PeelBondHowTo.pdf
> 
> In general you can google the product and go to the manufacturers website to find out the coolest it can be applied in.


Thanks you guys--I checked the FAQs section on XIM's site and then didn't get to the "how to apply section" (oy). It didn't mention the 40 degrees, though, thanks CApainter.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks Sagebrush, Paint and Hammer and everyone,

My (domestic and carpenter) Partner and the guy I partner with on exteriors are two different people, actually. I have never run a large exterior project before, was expecting the exterior partner to manage it as we have done on other jobs. My role with exteriors was getting leads, selling the quote and doing interface with customer, providing the workers, getting supplies/handling money, painting somewhat on the job, and making sure the job was done properly (overlapping here with exterior partner).

So I have the whole thing in my lap now. I have just begun to leave the panic zone after mismanaging the job a bit, and am starting to get a little excited, like, "yes, I can run jobs of this size, just not the way I have been running this one!"

I am realizing I just need to focus on the sander/sanding part and it will be ok. It's a lead job (I've always refused them, but decided to try it with the ext. partner...and now...) I have the lead certification. I think I just need to set up a system. I have always just scraped and palm sanded. My paint job on my own house lasted almost ten years before I needed to do touch ups. 

But now I need efficient exterior equipment and I've let the whole dust extracting business throw me for a loop, and I've wasted way too much time with dithering. 

To Paint and Hammer--I know--I was expecting it to take about the same time you mentioned. It's insane with the 500 sq. ft. That's why I have to decide on something and FAST! We have been using the Sandvik-style carbide scrapers because of not having dust extracting equipment. It is high-test lead paint on there, at least 1/16" thick, and I wonder if the old-time painters threw extra lead in the mix, because our scraper blades go dull abnormally fast. 
It was scraped but not sanded at some point in its recent painting history, so it is very plateau-like in its surface. The lead paint doesn't always come off with the scrapers, but is still lifting away from the wood like little tectonic plates with air underneath them, so then we've gone after those with 5-in-ones and it comes off easily. The quote is for 20K plus any wood repairs tacked on. 

I just don't have the experience to figure out how to do a 20K job with this thick and funky a paint layer. 

I am able to use a grinder with a bit of finesse on wood--Scott from Top Coat mentioned the RAS 115 and the RO 125 sander from festool but also mentioned in a recent post that the RO 125 sander can remove 16 layers of paint, and it seems like a sander could have more uses than the grinder, but I need to get %$#king MOVE on. What about the grinder or the sander from the paint shaver people? Which is better? Scott recommends Festool, so I assume that is better. I have the resources to buy ONE. I ordered a hood from CDC Larue to attach to a grinder I have, and I am in the process of returning it now. WAAAH!!

It seems to me we should grind and not scrape, except in hard-to get areas. Will this work? I just don't have much knowledge about these types of tools, how soon the disks or heads wear out, etc, though using them comes naturally when I have one in my hands. I have been driving my domestic partner crazy with my getting my knickers in a twist over this, and meanwhile, time's a-wasting. 

We got the 2400 sq ft of barn wall sprayed in 3 man hours yesterday, at least.

So Festool? And which one? I'm inclined toward the grinder because I know I will get to fresh wood fast, there will be a few curly marks but not gouges.

And then I get all stuck again because we don't have to strip the whole house, but the problem is the flaking paint is all over the place, so we might as well, except that it's a 20K job, not a 60K.

I have been told I think too much, but it's only when I don't have enough information! 

There is a better, faster way to do this than how I am doing it. I'm not sure what that way is, and I am panicky because with the money remaining in the job, if I make the right choice, I will be okay, and if I don't.... I really will be in trouble. Very much so. And I think I am making this more difficult than I have to, but I am frozen with indecision.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Holly, I'm on my phone so I can't do links and such conveniently. (plus writing is slow)

Check out my two last projects on the "show and tell" section. That one big wall was about 550 sqft and I did 300 of it with a RO125 hooked up to a CT 26. With the right grit you will be able to mow threw layers. Now in fairness it sounds like my project was easier than yours as I had only three layers to get threw. **warning- watch for swirls, seems you are already aware, but sometimes watching that paint go can be a distractor. One you realize when the first coat goes on. 

Can't say if the 115 would do better. I'll get one next summer. 

The trick for me was two things: 1 let the sander do the work. 2 replace that paper often don't try to get all kinds of milage out of it. I found Festool paper to do better than Abernet. JP-may disagree with that.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Dunbar Painting said:


> I wanted to write something like this but I could not word it properly.
> 
> My basic feeling was, why spend so much money on Peel Bond to just have it fail from improper prep. Peel Bond is a real "warranty extender" addition to a job that constitutes a higher price. IT does not safe you from scraping and sanding, so do that, spot prime bare wood and paint it!!


This, unless I had warranted the job for a long time, or had it spec'ed I would just spot prime. Would save a considerable amount since you mentioned it was underbid.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

For all the time you have alotted for prep, I'd have sprayed on this and let it sit overnight and scrape it off the next day. There is a contractor around here that does just that. A side/section a day. (next opportunity I get I'm doing it)

Then follow up with this it works as good or better than Peel Bond, costs about 40% less and goes farther. It does not build as thick a coat as Peel Bond though. (and its gotta be 50 or higher to apply)


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't do exterior so I can help much, but I will say this. If my partner who was superior to me in exterior had (under)bid the job, and hadn't been there in three weeks, I'd grab him by his ear, drag his ass to the jobsite, and tell him get to scraping knucklehead.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> I don't do exterior so I can help much, but I will say this. If my partner who was superior to me in exterior had (under)bid the job, and hadn't been there in three weeks, I'd grab him by his ear, drag his ass to the jobsite, and tell him get to scraping knucklehead.


Thanks, I hadn't laughed yet today. :thumbup:

The days are very numbered Holly. We really have never done much outside past Halloween. It is time to remember customer relations. Communication in this situation is the critical stage, with the homeowner, so that they understand what is happening and your plan on how to proceed. What portion of the workload will be left in spring, and your plan to make sure that it gets finished efficiently at that time. It is the trust factor that the customer needs to feel at this point for a happy result to occur.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> This, unless I had warranted the job for a long time, or had it spec'ed I would just spot prime. Would save a considerable amount since you mentioned it was underbid.


2 years! All my other jobs (only about 10) have lasted much longer! Thanks for input.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> Thanks, I hadn't laughed yet today. :thumbup:
> 
> The days are very numbered Holly. We really have never done much outside past Halloween. It is time to remember customer relations. Communication in this situation is the critical stage, with the homeowner, so that they understand what is happening and your plan on how to proceed. What portion of the workload will be left in spring, and your plan to make sure that it gets finished efficiently at that time. It is the trust factor that the customer needs to feel at this point for a happy result to occur.


Thanks, Scott, that's a good reminder. All I want to do is finish up the 500 sq ft side and get 2nd paint coats on other 4 areas. It just kills me because she waited till fall to protect her gardens, and I feel bad about that. I think we could have banged it out despite my dithering if it hadn't been for all the rain. I told her in advance we might have to finish next year. But I'll definitely communicate with her. We have a good trust relationship.

But if I could get out one more section next week with a good sander, that would feel like we were at the right place.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

id square that house up an hit it hard next year an take what ever loss but keep your head up an do the right thing an that partner of yours needs to get his ass kicked. botched the bid then pulled a no show ??? damn :no: fair weather friend


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Good thread, Holly.

The desperation you conveyed...was almost riveting!

My only advice, would be to relax a little. It's only a paint job, and it's only money.

(easy for me to say from where I'm sitting )


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I for one want to help save your ass Holly at all costs but I do not have any experience with peel bond so I will have to sit quietly while taking notes so when he next opportunity arises I may be of some help.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

first thing i though when i read the post was ''damn i wannna help'' but then i looked at her location an it said MAIN.... cant go to main cause to many libs up there ya know :whistling2: ............ 10 mary 3 we got a painter down !! ..........or what ever they said on C.H.I.P.S .........


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

As far as the festool sanders, RAS 115 is much faster at removal than the ro125 but the RO 125 catches more dust with the vac. My take after only 5 minutes running the 115.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

I beg the question why are you painting this and not staining it?


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Delta Painting said:


> I beg the question why are you painting this and not staining it?



Why would you stain?


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Why would you stain?



Well first off no priming involved and second with older homes that are pealing like Holly describes I have found over the years it hold's up better that paint...


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Delta Painting said:


> Well first off no priming involved and second with older homes that are pealing like Holly describes I have found over the years it hold's up better that paint...



Not to side track your thread here Holly...but,

I don't 'get' stain. To be clear, I'm talking about solid stains as an alternative to prime and top coat with 100% latex or acrylic. I mentioned this in another thread, but aside from what you mentioned (saving a prime step) it doesn't seem to be a better longevity option. 

Maybe....one situation I feel it can be better is where there is moisture from the inside. Nothing is going to win that situation, but maybe a stain will do better than skinning it with acrylic or latex. 

The downside of using it on older homes is it doesn't have the build therefore athletically it looks like crap if there is lots of scraping to be done. 

Collage Pro and those type companies use a ton of it around here. 

I'm open to anyone correcting my thinking on this....


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

The only step in what needs to be done that staining saves is priming. Still needs to be scraped and sanded thoroughly. 

Depending on the colour being used for the top coat, a tinted primer could be used and a better quality top coat that may cover in one (duration?).

That being said, a solid stain may be a smart as the oil based primers may not be able to dry fast enough in cool temps.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

If you do 2 coats like a PC should I don't see a disadvantage over painting as far longevity goes. The stain will penetrate the the wood better than any primer would in a cold climate IMHO. Yes one still need's to prep the job as you would for painting I mean that kinda goes without saying..No?

Collage pro (I use that term loosely) Or those kinda companies as you put it are a get in get it done cheaply as possible. I was simply offering up what I thought was a good alternative to peel bond and then painting.


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## jonathanthepainter (Jul 5, 2011)

We completed a 100+ year old home this year, 3 story victorian. combination of cedar shake, and beveled siding. The paint shaver pro took care of the beveled , the shakes were too brittle and began shattering. The shaver is not good if the siding is cupped. ( It should be replaced) The shaver will gouge cupped siding.

With the paint shaver pro the tool removes alot of material quickly, however not totally.. 

* familarize your self with the depth guage, practice first before going full scale. Watch very carefully what you are removing with the tool. WEAR SAFETY GLASSES. and long sleeves , gloves and respirator. The shrould catches alot of material but not all of it.

The bottoms of the siding need careful attention. 

The corners cannot be reached with the shaver so must me sdealt with seperately, we found shave with 4 inch scraper, then sand, with palm 60, 80 grit .

The shaver pro require alot of sand paper, we found the johnson abrasives were about the best and longest lasting. You will begin with 50 grit and finish with 80. We used close to 1k in abrasives.

Have many filters ready for your vac, you will need them.

We hooked up the dust deputy, half way through the job, definately worth the $. saved alot on filters.

Peel bond was used on the cedar shakes, after scraping to stop any checking paint from continuing to flake. We prime bare wood with ppg seal grip , we use the peel bond 50/50 mix of top coat ( Manor hall ). finish coat with Manor Hall.

I too am fighting the weather trying to get a number of projects done this year.. Hoping for an indian summer after the first snow.

Good Luck.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Delta Painting said:


> Collage pro (I use that term loosely) Or those kinda companies as you put it are a get in get it done cheaply as possible. I was simply offering up what I thought was a good alternative to peel bond and then painting.


Agreed....wasn't making judgement here, just stating the majority of local use I see.

Peace.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

*small update*

Hi all,

THANKS SO MUCH for everyone's input. :notworthy: :thumbup: 

I bought a paint shaver and orbital vac-sander kit. The business owners were really helpful in their low key New England way, and they sold me a used/reconditioned set for a little less -- looked brand-new to me, though. The shaver is a bit of a monster, which is good, and is moving the job along much faster. 

Thanks for such detailed input about it, Jonathan. We seem to be having a bit of luck with the weather, thank heaven. I think it's gonna be okay. I won't send pictures, as it will be a "C" job as to physical surface appearance, but at least a solid "B" for durability. It'll still be an improvement over the previous job. She's having us replace her horribly leaky gutters as well, so that will help prolong the life of the job, and maybe help catch up on lost income. Also, time and materials for wood replacement here and there. Ah, the beauty of the honest upsell! Everybody ends up happy. 

Ole, thanks for your chivalrous impulse to help out a dame in distress in liberal wilds of southern Maine. The rest of the state is unpredictable in its politics, libertarian as much as anything. 

In defense of my exterior partner, it's sort of complicated. My first exterior partner and I had a good thing going, and the current partner paired up with him quite a bit on my jobs. When first partner moved away to go to school, there were still quoted & scheduled jobs waiting, and #2 had his own jobs hanging over his head. I was mad and scared when I posted, but upon reflection I can't blame him. He did a huge amount before this last job, and he's a good, honest guy. Then my domestic partner/carpenter was going to help, and has to some degree, but not as much as I had hoped. It is what it is, and I have begun to calm down a bit as other money comes in.

Thanks again for the advice and kind input! I'm still nervous, but that's just a given anyway.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Post some photo's. It could be a real educator to some of the less experienced on exteriors.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

Lee Decorating Corp. said:


> Post some photo's. It could be a real educator to some of the less experienced on exteriors.


Thanks for being interested! We are doing an okay job, I know the paint will stick, and the customer is happy about it, but it is no tour de force of painting. It's a wonderful house, over 200 years old, original old growth pine claps--but we are racing the weather and it's a bit of a rough finish. I'd be embarrassed to show it close-up... :whistling2: We're lucky, though--everything is the same paint, trim and claps, except for 1 blue door.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Holly said:


> Thanks for being interested! We are doing an okay job, I know the paint will stick, and the customer is happy about it, but it is no tour de force of painting. It's a wonderful house, over 200 years old, original old growth pine claps--but we are racing the weather and it's a bit of a rough finish. I'd be embarrassed to show it close-up... :whistling2: We're lucky, though--everything is the same paint, trim and claps, except for 1 blue door.



Holly, don't be embarrassed, this place can create a skewed perspective of 'quality'. 

Hope the project worked out for ya!


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

Hi All, haven't been here for a little while, nose to the grindstone. We appear to be closing in on the final stretch, please, please please... 40-50 (hu)man hours to go.... still 2-3 days predicted this week of no rain and above 35-degree nights... wish me luck!!!!!!!!! And thanks for support and input :thumbup: You all are the best.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

*pictures*

Hi folks,

Thought I would post some pics after all. 

HO is happy, I've got 2 calls already from new customers who saw the work we were doing, I am pretty sure I made no money for the last 6 weeks, but I am also pretty sure I didn't actually pay to do the job either, and at east got a paint shaver and sander out of it. 

This job has been a blessing in disguise--not that I want too many of these kinds of blessings!--a reverse of Heidi Nyline's experience of wanting to take back her best year, but still in the same continuum. This job has highly focused my brain, and I learned a lot about a few different types of management. We pulled this under-priced job from the jaws of financial and marketing disaster, and I feel pretty good about that. A lot of that is thanks to one particular employee who really got off on using the paint shaver. Bless you Sean (a workaholic, but not Workaholic). 

All in all it is at least a 30K job just to do it leaving the clapboards shaggy like we did (that hurt a little, to come so close and then leave it), and it was bid for 20K. There is about 20% left to do next year, and I should make a bit of money off it then, as we are now rather experienced with this house...

I got a Paint Shaver Pro and the accompanying orbital sander (I should have got a festool instead of paint shaver's sander--festool would be more versatile for indoor use, as well). Our production rates for using both: with moving the pick around on the gable end, the shaver took 3 man days, about 20-22 sq. feet an hour. It was about 100 sq ft an hour with the sander using 40 grit. I didn't go finer. We do better work than that, but customer could see she was already getting a better job than quoted. On the long end next to the gable going to the garage, it took two man days to shave, and we sanded quick around the entry and the garage. Being careful of the garden plants and wrassling with the trees slowed us up a bit. We sprayed and backbrushed some areas, rolled and back brushed other areas. We started out with a 519 tip on the barn, but switched to a 3 15 after that for better control. We were all pretty new to spraying.

I am actually excited now about our next job, about 2 1/2 weeks of interior work. I want to see how well I can apply some of my new methods, including tracking the job using a procedure for checking actual hours worked against hours quoted.

Thanks to everyone for checking this out and for holding my hand, it ended ok, and it was very close. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Photos: front of house got both gable ends and blue door side, the section from gable to end of garage (not gable you see above garage, the gable at far end, in 2nd picture), and the barn, 120' long! Also did half of a small studio building not shown; it's a modern addition attached to barn.


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

That is a monster of an exterior , nice work Holly & co!


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