# Primer good but Paint failure on cabinets



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Well I have read about this but have not yet had to deal with it. I primed some cabinets on Thursday, and top coated about half of them on Friday. The primed ones still look fine but the top coated ones are all crackled out. I know this is relatively common but what do you guys think is going on here? Could this be related to temperature? Cabinets were in the garage temperature probably around 40 to 45 degrees . I used Smart Prime with Scuff x as a top coat. The ones with just the smart Prime on them still look just fine. It's only the top coated ones . I've used both products together so I know they are compatible at least some of the times. And the top coat didn't occur until the day after the prime coat


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

That looks like primer failure, to me. The parts that are peeling up are grey on top, but white on the bottom. That means the grey paint stuck to the primer, but the primer is letting go.


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Well I have read about this but have not yet had to deal with it. I primed some cabinets on Thursday, and top coated about half of them on Friday. The primed ones still look fine but the top coated ones are all crackled out. I know this is relatively common but what do you guys think is going on here? Could this be related to temperature? Cabinets were in the garage temperature probably around 40 to 45 degrees . I used Smart Prime with Scuff x as a top coat. The ones with just the smart Prime on them still look just fine. It's only the top coated ones . I've used both products together so I know they are compatible at least some of the times. And the top coat didn't occur until the day after the prime coat


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Well I have read about this but have not yet had to deal with it. I primed some cabinets on Thursday, and top coated about half of them on Friday. The primed ones still look fine but the top coated ones are all crackled out. I know this is relatively common but what do you guys think is going on here? Could this be related to temperature? Cabinets were in the garage temperature probably around 40 to 45 degrees . I used Smart Prime with Scuff x as a top coat. The ones with just the smart Prime on them still look just fine. It's only the top coated ones . I've used both products together so I know they are compatible at least some of the times. And the top coat didn't occur until the day after the prime coat


It's been a while since I've posted here, so bear with me on this new format... Masterwork is right. Scuff X is pulling the primer from the surface - and i'm guessing it's due to the fact that the Smart Prime hasn't sufficiently cured. Nothing disrupts the coalescence of a latex film faster than application in cold temps, and that can affect so many of the film's intended attributes (strong adhesion being one of them) - one other consideration is the surface wasn't completely clean and free of oils/grease etc. before painting. If this is a coalescence issue, I'd check the adhesion on all surfaces that have been primed, and remove (by sanding) what isn't tightly adhering. Smart Prime is a good primer, but latex is latex and latex products will really perform best when application is above 50° F (surface & air temperature), w/relative humidity at, or below, 50%...Equally important is to allow ample time for the primer to dry before topcoating - especially with a hard-drying latex like Scuff-X (check the data page, but I'd recommend a minimum of 8 hours to recoat, if applied at cooler temps)


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thanks Masterwork, That's what I thought too.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Ric said:


> It's been a while since I've posted here, so bear with me on this new format... Masterwork is right. Scuff X is pulling the primer from the surface - and i'm guessing it's due to the fact that the Smart Prime hasn't sufficiently cured. Nothing disrupts the coalescence of a latex film faster than application in cold temps, and that can affect so many of the film's intended attributes (strong adhesion being one of them) - one other consideration is the surface wasn't completely clean and free of oils/grease etc. before painting. If this is a coalescence issue, I'd check the adhesion on all surfaces that have been primed, and remove (by sanding) what isn't tightly adhering. Smart Prime is a good primer, but latex is latex and latex products will really perform best when application is above 50° F (surface & air temperature), w/relative humidity at, or below, 50%...Equally important is to allow ample time for the primer to dry before topcoating - especially with a hard-drying latex like Scuff-X (check the data page, but I'd recommend a minimum of 8 hours to recoat, if applied at cooler temps)


Thanks Ric. I think You are correct in that the temperature definitely is playing a part here. It's odd because the half of the doors that I only primed are fine and pass the scratch test. The half that are failing were primed the day before and topcoated the next day. But I think the temperatures in this garage door in the mid 40s so even overnight may not have been enough time.

Interestingly enough, only the front of these doors have failed, and the backs are relatively unscathed. As it turns out these are both bathroom vanities so I'm also wondering if hairspray hasn't become a factor, since only the front has failed. All the doors were scuffed and decreased with a scour pad and tsp Deglosser degreaser. I'm thinking maybe contaminants combined with cold temperatures didn't allow the smart Prime enough time to cure up and bite. My plan is to top coat one of the doors that is only been primed today, and leave it sit overnight in the house. If everything looks fine then I can chalk the majority of the problem is up to temperature and not giving the primer enough time to cure. Thanks for your guys help. Gonna be a fun Monday!


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks Ric. I think You are correct in that the temperature definitely is playing a part here. It's odd because the half of the doors that I only primed are fine and pass the scratch test. The half that are failing were primed the day before and topcoated the next day. But I think the temperatures in this garage door in the mid 40s so even overnight may not have been enough time.
> 
> Interestingly enough, only the front of these doors have failed, and the backs are relatively unscathed. As it turns out these are both bathroom vanities so I'm also wondering if hairspray hasn't become a factor, since only the front has failed. All the doors were scuffed and decreased with a scour pad and tsp Deglosser degreaser. I'm thinking maybe contaminants combined with cold temperatures didn't allow the smart Prime enough time to cure up and bite. My plan is to top coat one of the doors that is only been primed today, and leave it sit overnight in the house. If everything looks fine then I can chalk the majority of the problem is up to temperature and not giving the primer enough time to cure. Thanks for your guys help. Gonna be a fun Monday!


Standard TSP must be rinsed with clean water. Have you ruled out residue from degreaser?
Could also be moisture (from cleaning) present in or on the surface that is causing issues, if not sufficiently dry before priming/painting.

but...sounds too cold for interior paint.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

An HVAC Technician suggested using these types of heaters to safely warm up spaces.

I have been using them for several years, and have been able to heat uninsulated garages up to 70 degree temps (and maintain temp) without feeling worried about burning the place down.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Standard TSP must be rinsed with clean water. Have you ruled out residue from degreaser?
> Could also be moisture (from cleaning) present in or on the surface that is causing issues, if not sufficiently dry before priming/painting.
> 
> but...sounds too cold for interior paint.


I did use the no-rinse tsp , so I'm hoping that's not part of it. but I also did give it a pretty decent rinse off with the rag. I see what you're saying with the moisture, I will say that the primer didn't have any problems though.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> View attachment 111363
> 
> 
> An HVAC Technician suggested using these types of heaters to safely warm up spaces.
> ...



Yeah you know when I was shopping for heaters last year for a similar job I looked at those infrareds, but ended up going for a couple milk house heaters. Maybe I'll pick up one of those infrareds.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Yeah you know when I was shopping for heaters last year for a similar job I looked at those infrareds, but ended up going for a couple milk house heaters. Maybe I'll pick up one of those infrareds.


I have one of the infrareds (1500W), partly to just keep my garage above freezing in winter. It's also handy in the house during power outages. It's handy for those things, but it won't "heat" the garage in the winter - just keep it from freezing. It is oversized though - 2 car +. (Like 20x30). Concrete block with no insulation, and no ceiling. Just open truss, so that doesn't help anything. It keeps me above freezing if we don't go below freezing for too long. In central VA, typical winter pattern is only below freezing at night, but when we hit those stretches where we stay below for several days straight I generally need to supplement the infrared.

In any case ... just saying that before you drop the $$, just read up on the capabilities and assess your own space. If I had a 1 car garage with a ceiling (and esp if insulated), whole different story. If it's 40 out (as opposed to in the 20s or something), also a whole different story.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Joe67 said:


> I have one of the infrareds (1500W), partly to just keep my garage above freezing in winter. It's also handy in the house during power outages. It's handy for those things, but it won't "heat" the garage in the winter - just keep it from freezing. It is oversized though - 2 car +. (Like 20x30). Concrete block with no insulation, and no ceiling. Just open truss, so that doesn't help anything. It keeps me above freezing if we don't go below freezing for too long. In central VA, typical winter pattern is only below freezing at night, but when we hit those stretches where we stay below for several days straight I generally need to supplement the infrared.
> 
> In any case ... just saying that before you drop the $$, just read up on the capabilities and assess your own space. If I had a 1 car garage with a ceiling (and esp if insulated), whole different story. If it's 40 out (as opposed to in the 20s or something), also a whole different story.


They require about a day to come to full temps in really cold weather. 
I use 2 of them (one in each corner) for really cold rooms, but open-truss may be too much heat loss. 

I have definitely warmed up garage spaces to t-shirt comfort.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Holland said:


> They require about a day to come to full temps in really cold weather.
> I use 2 of them (one in each corner) for really cold rooms, but open-truss may be too much heat loss.
> 
> I have definitely warmed up garage spaces to t-shirt comfort.


I'm conservative about electrical costs (1500W is pricey!), so I just set the thermo low. I have run it non-stop once in a while, but still won't keep up if it stays really cold. But, yeah - if I had 2 of them (3,000W!) - and ceilings! different story. When I need to supplement, it's torpedo heater.

I can say that I have used it in the house during a couple of power outages (running off the gen, of course). I burn a fire in my downstairs and the heater upstairs. That's about 1100 sq ft (w/ insulation) for the heater. It also won't literally "heat" the place but it keeps it comfortable enough even when it's cold out. Overall, I'm pretty impressed with them for their size. Those tiny little windows with mellow little fans just don't seem like they should generate as much heat as they do.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Joe67 said:


> I'm conservative about electrical costs (1500W is pricey!), so I just set the thermo low. I have run it non-stop once in a while, but still won't keep up if it stays really cold. But, yeah - if I had 2 of them (3,000W!) - and ceilings! different story. When I need to supplement, it's torpedo heater.
> 
> I can say that I have used it in the house during a couple of power outages (running off the gen, of course). I burn a fire in my downstairs and the heater upstairs. That's about 1100 sq ft (w/ insulation) for the heater. It also won't literally "heat" the place but it keeps it comfortable enough even when it's cold out. Overall, I'm pretty impressed with them for their size. Those tiny little windows with mellow little fans just don't seem like they should generate as much heat as they do.


The way it was explained to me, is that it’s a different kind of heat. 
It warms up objects (like radiant heat), rather than heating the air (like forced air). It takes longer to heat up, but stays warmer once it reaches desired temps, and is a more even heat.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Holland said:


> The way it was explained to me, is that it’s a different kind of heat.
> It warms up objects (like radiant heat), rather than heating the air (like forced air). It takes longer to heat up, but stays warmer once it reaches desired temps, and is a more even heat.


That is how I understand it as well. So what's weird is that in some respects my open trusses shouldn't matter as much as w normal heaters. A typical heater heats air which promptly rises (so mine would all be largely lost to the rafters...) But the radiant keeps things even throughout. I can vouch for that as I have a couple of thermometers out there and elevation doesn't seem to matter.

But, of course, w/ the open truss I have that much more space, and not much of anything to keep the cold from infiltrating. I just have too much space and not enough insulation. But it's pretty obvious that the IR heater does things a normal little electric/ceramic 1500W won't/can't do. They're pretty impressive to be sure.

The radiant effect is def relevant to when I go to torpedo. Crank up the interior temps and warm up everything in the garage. Then they continue to radiate that heat even once the heater is off. My best "weapon" is actually my slab. If the slab stays above freezing, that makes all the difference I need.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

@fromthenorthwest. That totally sucks. But ya, mid 40's is pretty cold. I think most of these paints are designed for 50plus degs. When I'm spraying In my shop, I have it about 65-68. I also have a cheap humidity reader and try to keep it about 50%. Thus having both a humidifier and de-humidifier in the shop if required. I find in the winter, the air can get really dry especially with a heater on.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> @fromthenorthwest. That totally sucks. But ya, mid 40's is pretty cold. I think most of these paints are designed for 50plus degs. When I'm spraying In my shop, I have it about 65-68. I also have a cheap humidity reader and try to keep it about 50%. Thus having both a humidifier and de-humidifier in the shop if required. I find in the winter, the air can get really dry especially with a heater on.


 hopefully on different circuits. 

(presses sprayer trigger) 
...hello darkness my old friend....


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> hopefully on different circuits.
> 
> (presses sprayer trigger)
> ...hello darkness my old friend....


lol. Ironically, I do have a heater, humidifier and sprayer all in the same outlet. Not sure how it doesn't trip the breaker? Albight, I don't usually have the de-humidifier and humidifier on at the same time. That would be redundant.


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## canopainting (Feb 12, 2013)

Looks like grease on the substrate


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Yeah one of these days I'll learn to follow the instructions on the can. When things have been going smooth for a while I start to think I can get away with whatever. I like these cabinet jobs but they sure do you throw a curveball at me from time to time. Good call on the humidifier.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah too cold imo. Also did you scuff then clean or clean and then scuff? Scuff first spreads dirt around and into the grain. We like Krud Kutter and the Jasco no rinse tsp. Both good. But both best when rinsed well. Cleaning cabinets really well is the first and most important step. I like Stix for adhesion even tho it always seems to fish eye on the first coat. 2nd.coat primer evens it out. And 2 coats Advance or Scuff X and good to go. Definitely crank those heaters up. Good luck


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks Ric. I think You are correct in that the temperature definitely is playing a part here. It's odd because the half of the doors that I only primed are fine and pass the scratch test. The half that are failing were primed the day before and topcoated the next day. But I think the temperatures in this garage door in the mid 40s so even overnight may not have been enough time.
> 
> Interestingly enough, only the front of these doors have failed, and the backs are relatively unscathed. As it turns out these are both bathroom vanities so I'm also wondering if hairspray hasn't become a factor, since only the front has failed. All the doors were scuffed and decreased with a scour pad and tsp Deglosser degreaser. I'm thinking maybe contaminants combined with cold temperatures didn't allow the smart Prime enough time to cure up and bite. My plan is to top coat one of the doors that is only been primed today, and leave it sit overnight in the house. If everything looks fine then I can chalk the majority of the problem is up to temperature and not giving the primer enough time to cure. Thanks for your guys help. Gonna be a fun Monday!


I agree with Ric and you may be right about bathroom contaminants too. We had a similar experience once with 4 kitchen cabinet doors that kept doing something similar. The rest of the job was fine except for these 4 stupid doors. They kept lifting in small spots. We tried to fix them a couple of times but new spots would break out. We ended up completely stripping, cleaning, and doing them over. That ended up solving the problem. When we installed them, we realized that the four doors were the 4 immediately around the cooktop hood. The hood recirculated the air into the kitchen instead of out of the house, and they were positioned so that they shot the greasy air (because you know the homeowner never cleaned them) directly across the doors. We thought we had cleaned and degreased everything well enough, but these four doors must have been embedded with grease.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

The way the paint is curling looks like maybe cold. 

*OP said only Paint layer was problem. 
Think the primer is rated for 35, most interior paint 50.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Holland said:


> The way the paint is curling looks like maybe cold.
> 
> *OP said only Paint layer was problem.
> Think the primer is rated for 35, most interior paint 50.


Have a closer look at the pictures. The primer is what failed, not the finish.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Masterwork said:


> Have a closer look at the pictures. The primer is what failed, not the finish.


agreed, it does look like the white showing under is primer. 

He said: cabinets with just primer look fine, but ones that were painted failed.
That is strange.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Yes the ones that hadnt yet been topcoated were fine, go figure. Past scratch test and everything. I moved all those into a warmer room around 65 or so, and over the next couple days top coated a couple each day. The problem got less and less pronounced with each door but there was still a little bit of it going on even several days after the primed days had been in the warm room.. I think leaving the primer in such a cold room that first night had retarded the curing process to the point of needing several days in warmer conditions before top coating. Not sure exactly, just glad that job's over. Ate some money and moved on.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Yes the ones that hadnt yet been topcoated were fine, go figure. Past scratch test and everything. I moved all those into a warmer room around 65 or so, and over the next couple days top coated a couple each day. The problem got less and less pronounced with each door but there was still a little bit of it going on even several days after the primed days had been in the warm room.. I think leaving the primer in such a cold room that first night had retarded the curing process to the point of needing several days in warmer conditions before top coating. Not sure exactly, just glad that job's over. Ate some money and moved on.


Do you think it was related to SmartPrime in any way? Would you use it again?
I have a gallon and was considering trying it on cabinets also.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

I wouldn't rule out the SmartPrime. But this is the first time I've had issues with it. I actually did a job last winter that was probably colder then this one, using Smart prime but I top coated with breakthrough. Been using Scuffx for the last five or six jobs with no problems over top of smart Prime. I have another cabinet set coming up in April and I am planning on using smart Prime again there because temperature seems to be the only variable I can think of that was different.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I liked and used Smart Prime quite a few times until I had some major bleed through occurring from dark woodwork being painted white. Never used it again except for walls.
The temperature issue could certainly be the culprit but anytime somebody says they are having issues with painting any type of bathroom surfaces, I immediately cringe since there are so many possibilities for chemical contamination of any of the surfaces.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

My Guess as to what is going on:

Most likely contaminates on the surface, but could also be tied into temperature as well.

There are two types of Bonds with Coatings: Mechanical and Chemical. Most paint is a mechanical bond. That's why sanding to abrade the surface and give a place for the paint to grab hold is important. (Lacquer to lacquer is a chemical bond, where the new coat actually melts into the existing coat.)

When Paint dries, and the liquids evaporate off, The paint actually pulls against the surface. Think of it as shrinking which pulls against the surface it's on. I’ve seen it a lot when you put High Solids Epoxy over an old existing coating. The Epoxy pulls so hard, that it actually lifts the coating underneath. (Which looks exactly like your photos.) It happens a lot on Exterior repaints as well [Article]

My guess is the primer is fine on it’s own, but once you apply the finish coat and it dries, it pulls so hard on the primer that it lifts it off the surface.

This would be because the primer isn’t sticking well enough. If there is grease, or some residue still on the cabinets, then the primer could fail one the paint pulls on it. If the primer hadn’t cured, then it could lead to adhesion problems too. Another possibility is that the existing clear coat is incompatible with the water based primer.

Masterpiece is spot on that you can see the primer on the back of the paint. The adhesion between the primer and paint is really good, it’s the primer that is failing, likely for one of the reasons above.

Can you do an adhesion test on some of the doors you’ve primed but not painted. If you can't just scrape it off with your fingernail, try tape first, stick on some 2 inch tape and pull it off after a few minutes and see if the primer fails. If not, do some small cross hatching with a razor blade then tape over it and pull it off and see if it fails. Then return and report and we can see where you are!

*Edit -* Sorry I just realized that you stated the job was over. I looked at the [PDS] for Zinsser Smart Prime to see if it had a minimum dry temp. I don't see one, but low temps will definitely affect the dry time.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

RH said:


> I liked and used Smart Prime quite a few times until I had some major bleed through occurring from dark woodwork being painted white. Never used it again except for walls.
> The temperature issue could certainly be the culprit but anytime somebody says they are having issues with painting any type of bathroom surfaces, I immediately cringe since there are so many possibilities for chemical contamination of any of the surfaces.


Thats the first id heard of bleed through w smart prime, but dark wood that makes sense, good to know for future reference


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

kentdalimp said:


> My Guess as to what is going on:
> 
> Most likely contaminates on the surface, but could also be tied into temperature as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kent, lots of good info there. 

I think your right about there being multiple possible factors. I know that as the days went on and the unpainted ones had more time to cure, the problem became less and less to the point of it all most not occurring on the last couple doors I top-coated. which is 3 or 4 days after them being primed. Also the island in the kitchen had no problems whatsoever and it stayed nice and warm the whole time. This makes me think temperature was the primary factor. 

Interestingly enough, when we rolled the doors there was also no problem, only when it was sprayed. Possible sprayer contamination? I thought of that one too but couldn't seem to find any, cant rule it out though. 

We have been scuffing and cleaning with a green or maroon scour pad and degreaser/deglosser and hadnt had a problem through the first 10 or so cabinet sets we've done. Maybe time to start hitting it with sandpaper though.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thats the first id heard of bleed through w smart prime, but dark wood that makes sense, good to know for future reference


I did like it for walls since unlike most primers, which are flat, it had a bit of an eggshell sheen. Typically did two coats anyway but that sheen similarity was just one less chance of something showing up wonky.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks Kent, lots of good info there.
> 
> I think your right about there being multiple possible factors. I know that as the days went on and the unpainted ones had more time to cure, the problem became less and less to the point of it all most not occurring on the last couple doors I top-coated. which is 3 or 4 days after them being primed. Also the island in the kitchen had no problems whatsoever and it stayed nice and warm the whole time. This makes me think temperature was the primary factor.
> 
> ...


The more I think about it, it was -probably- mostly due to the cold weather affecting the cure on the primer. Going to be hard to recreate, but its over so you at least have a sense for next time. 

As for the cleaning, The scouring pad may be enough, it may not. We would normally sand, unless I was certain of what the existing coating was. My only rule is to ALWAYS clean before you sand, so you aren't sanding any contaminates into the substrate. They get buried in the wood and now a cleaning may not get them out. 

As for the Roll vs. Spray. I can't come up with anything off the top of my head. I know that Film Thickness will play a role in the internal stresses created when paint dries. But I have no idea what the film thickness difference between your rolled and sprayed finishes could be. Lower solid coating will have less stress because they are still viscous as they begin to solidify (Viscous Creep), and Scuff X is pretty Low Solids [38% +/-2] It is likely related but there are too many unknowns to say for sure!


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