# 18" roller cages



## josey wales (Mar 1, 2009)

Went to go look at a job for a client i do some work for. he has a 3 car garage fresh boarded and taped. He wants it primed and 2 coats. Usually i would spray a large garage like this one, but owner does not want any spraying. So i figure i will roll it off with an "18 roller. I have never used one of these for walls and ceilings before,(only on expoxy floors). So i an heading out to get me one of those Wooster 5gal green roller buckets and a roller cage. Looking at woosters sherlock 18" cage, this is going to sound stupid but how does the sleeve fit on to this cage from the pic all i see is a couple of pins, one each arm. somone fill me in LOL is there another piece to this cage? Sorry i admit it sounds stupid. The other style of cages are just like a normal cages but doubled up, i would like to stick with the wooster sherlock system.

Thanks


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

There are clips on the top ( or wing nuts on older models) that adjust the arms in and out. You can use that frame on 18", 12, etc.


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## josey wales (Mar 1, 2009)

OK lol the pic they show for it on thepaintstore . com, is a little deceiving.

thanks


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)




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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I spy HD paint in JP's pic.. is that why you started the Behr thread cause you like the Glidden paint better?? Looking for the ICI endorsement :whistling2:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> I spy HD paint in JP's pic.. is that why you started the Behr thread cause you like the Glidden paint better?? Looking for the ICI endorsement :whistling2:


Lol, I like that stuff and ICI Diamond Matte, it's allegedly 10x tougher than traditional paints and has micro-sphere technology and 48% volume solids. Only thing I don't like is the recoat time. Small learning curve to apply it, its not as forgiving as traditional flats to roll.

Stuff sticks hard to plastic 5's too. Good luck getting it off if you dont wash them.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

JP you ever clean that thing? 


Josey... They take a few minutes to get used to on walls as the steering is a little different. You'll fall in love though. One thing with the Sherlock is when you push the two ends of the frame into the roller caps, you want to keep both ends even in length. You simply align the little cut ends to be even with eachother. They'll both stick out from center frame about an inch. This allows better balance.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JNLP said:


> JP you ever clean that thing?


No. Waste of time. I rotate 6 of them and when they become too full of paint I set them in the rain and peel them back to clean.

I typically do not have water on my jobs. I have to take 5's with me.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> I typically do not have water on my jobs. I have to take 5's with me.


Jack, what percentage of your work is new construction versus repaints?


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> No. Waste of time. I rotate 6 of them and when they become too full of paint I set them in the rain and peel them back to clean.
> 
> I typically do not have water on my jobs. I have to take 5's with me.


I see. I usually don't wash mine, but run my 5 down them for a minute and they stay looking good as new. I like to do this as paint build up near the nap sometimes causes it to drip. Also allows you to adjust the frame & tighten up nicely. The green part (or once was) I let go though.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> Jack, what percentage of your work is new construction versus repaints?


Started off repaints, then went to mostly new homes keeping what I can handle of repaints now a mix. New homes is down here so its mostly repaints, remods or additions this year. I'd say in the past 90% new now its the opposite. I prefer new.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JNLP said:


> I see. I usually don't wash mine, but run my 5 down them for a minute and they stay looking good as new. I like to do this as paint build up near the nap sometimes causes it to drip. Also allows you to adjust the frame & tighten up nicely. The green part (or once was) I let go though.


Those little VVVV's on that pan in the pic takes a lot of water to clean and if not completely clean I noticed some paints rewet and pull off the pan. That might be why I decided to leave them to dry too. Easier to swap a pan at first sign of paint lifting from the pan.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

I was speaking of the frame. :thumbsup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JNLP said:


> I was speaking of the frame. :thumbsup:


Oh. duh. Yeah i was thinking scraping with a 5 didnt make sense to me. lol

Im with you, I scrape them too. 6 pans, 6 frames


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Do you prefer the tray over the bucket? I had a tray but didn't like how it scooted across the floor when I kicked it. Bucket is nice in new construction. Can kick it along pretty fast & holds a hell of alot of paint. Also a handle is nice to have when moving rooms, etc.


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## josey wales (Mar 1, 2009)

Ah it was the end cap system that was throwing me off, anytime we have used 18's for floors we always used cages like the one Corona sells with the double wire cage set up. Do the end caps come with the wooster frame? Looking forward to trying some walls with an 18" roller, don't know why i never considered it before.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

josey wales said:


> Ah it was the end cap system that was throwing me off, anytime we have used 18's for floors we always used cages like the one Corona sells with the double wire cage set up. Do the end caps come with the wooster frame? Looking forward to trying some walls with an 18" roller, don't know why i never considered it before.


They usually come with the nap. :thumbsup:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Another tip now that I think of it...

When you tighten your nuts, you don't want the frame to be too tight. Not only is it harder to roll but you'll melt the caps causing grey drips on your walls. Adjust the nap loosness to feel pretty much like your 9" would. Not to loose, not to tight.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Do you prefer the tray over the bucket? I had a tray but didn't like how it scooted across the floor when I kicked it. Bucket is nice in new construction. Can kick it along pretty fast & holds a hell of alot of paint. Also a handle is nice to have when moving rooms, etc.


I've used all the bucket types Wooster has. I prefer the easy access to a pan mainly to meet my rolling style. I drag the Big Ben with the frame as I move through a house. Buckets are nice to carry but I dont miss that feature.

ANOTHER worth mentioning> Its more difficult to roll a 16' ceiling using obviously the 16' pole and having to load into a bucket vs easy lower access to the pan. Stating the obvious here but setting the pan on the other side of the room vs walking up to a bucket and dunking downward.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I use a paint scuttle (mine's an 18"). You're not prone to standing on a corner and tipping them like the trays and they also hold more paint.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> I use a paint scuttle (mine's an 18"). You're not prone to standing on a corner and tipping them like the trays and they also hold more paint.


 
Tooled. I like that! Is that hooks on the back? 

How come it is not measured in metric increments? 

Are you becoming a nation of Yanks?

You want our president?


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> You want our president?


_Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes. Please take him..._


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This thread had the first group of useful post by Ralph .... prolly because he wasnt self promoting.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I like both Wooster buckets and frames. The shallow 18 pan is better for high areas like Ralph mentioned.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Tooled. I like that! Is that hooks on the back?


Yes it is. You can get them with hooks or without. The hooks are for ladder work and come in real handy 



> How come it is not measured in metric increments?


We still talk in feet and inches when it comes to painting tools here. Don't ask why coz I don't know :confused1:



> Are you becoming a nation of Yanks?


No, mostly a nation of Eastern European and Asian :whistling2:



> You want our president?


He would have to produce his original birth certificate to get into the country so that might be a problem for him


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Do you wear a white kilt?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Do you wear a white kilt?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

TooledUp said:


>


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


>


Nahhh. This is a fail...


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

I work up a little 4 wheel cart that I roll my tray around with.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I work up a little 4 wheel cart that I roll my tray around with.


Now I've got this mental image stuck in my head :blink:


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## 1977corey (Feb 27, 2009)

josey wales said:


> Went to go look at a job for a client i do some work for. he has a 3 car garage fresh boarded and taped. He wants it primed and 2 coats. Usually i would spray a large garage like this one, but owner does not want any spraying. So i figure i will roll it off with an "18 roller. I have never used one of these for walls and ceilings before,(only on expoxy floors). So i an heading out to get me one of those Wooster 5gal green roller buckets and a roller cage. Looking at woosters sherlock 18" cage, this is going to sound stupid but how does the sleeve fit on to this cage from the pic all i see is a couple of pins, one each arm. somone fill me in LOL is there another piece to this cage? Sorry i admit it sounds stupid. The other style of cages are just like a normal cages but doubled up, i would like to stick with the wooster sherlock system.
> 
> Thanks


why not just go with using a 14" ? in my------OPINION-------, the 14" is easier to handle, rolls tighter in corners, weighs less, and spreads just about the same amount of paint an 18" does.
I guess it comes down to personal preference.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Does anyone know of an 18 inch roller frame that does NOT have the angled head?

That husky with the angled head is the one I have because it rolls close in the corners. I have another 18 inch frame that is straight like a regular roller but it only gets in as close as two inches.

Does anyone know of an adjustable 18 frame that rolls real close in the corners but is NOT angled.

That angle is retarded. It sucks for most things, especially ceilings.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Big Ben.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)




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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Does anyone know of an 18 inch roller frame that does NOT have the angled head?
> 
> That husky with the angled head is the one I have because it rolls close in the corners. I have another 18 inch frame that is straight like a regular roller but it only gets in as close as two inches.
> 
> ...


I use the Big Ben for ceilings.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Nice vid neps. I find that if I shake my roller at the wall it gets paint right on there and that means less re-loading. Gotta love those superior painting vids. Primer is just cheap paint anyways . . .


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That must be one of Ralph's productions, with his alter ego Brian H at the wheel. Is it just me or does something about rolling first then cutting just seem like putting your underwear on top of your pants? That was some professional rolling, especially where he slides it around on the wall and then runs it horizontally across the wall. Would that be considered 2 coats, wet on wet? Good thing Raul has the custom tricked out pole sander modification to rub out all the roller slides. That dude knows how to grease up a roller. Good stuff, thanks for posting NEPS.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

but on a serious note, I use the big ben that neps pictured for us and a low big ben pan. The buckets work better with the angled frames for walls.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It is embarrassing that this guy is really giving advice.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> but on a serious note, I use the big ben that neps pictured for us and a low big ben pan. The buckets work better with the angled frames for walls.


:yes: I keep breaking the tabs.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> It is embarrassing that this guy is really giving advice.


Who you talking about? JP?


NEPS.US said:


> :yes: I keep breaking the tabs.


You have to be gentle grasshopper


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Who you talking about? JP?
> 
> You have to be gentle grasshopper


That is JP's video.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Who you talking about? JP?
> 
> You have to be gentle grasshopper


The tabs break in the truck ....not rolling LOL


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> It is embarrassing that this guy is really giving advice.


According to the text at the beginning, the dude Brian, er Raul, could have rolled that wall in 60 seconds. Then another 60 seconds to cut it in. Then, about 90 minutes of pole sanding to prepare for paint, which will be applied in the same manner. That sure did show the efficiency of the 18". Ralph is right, he does alot of little things that the rest of us don't. :blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> The tabs break in the truck ....not rolling LOL


Yeah I have seen that video to many times.

I figured you were breaking them taking them on and off. 
I keep mine in the pan bungied under one of my shelves


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I use the Big Ben for ceilings.


The big ben doesnt get close enough in the corners.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> The big ben doesnt get close enough in the corners.


For 18's its the best i know of. let me know if you find something better. :thumbsup:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> For 18's its the best i know of. let me know if you find something better. :thumbsup:



The wooster sherlock gets in close to 1/2 inch. But it has an angled head wich SUCKS for ceilings.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That must be one of Ralph's productions, with his alter ego Brian H at the wheel. Is it just me or does something about rolling first then cutting just seem like putting your underwear on top of your pants? That was some professional rolling, especially where he slides it around on the wall and then runs it horizontally across the wall. Would that be considered 2 coats, wet on wet? Good thing Raul has the custom tricked out pole sander modification to rub out all the roller slides. That dude knows how to grease up a roller. Good stuff, thanks for posting NEPS.


Should watch the whole vid NEPS, the whole wall got last stroke down and if you had the slightest clue about painting you would clearly know all the benefits of rolling 1st then cutting on 1st coat. You are one guy on here who keeps on with nothing but BS and I seriously and floored by your ignorance. You make yourself look like a fool when you say stuff like that.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> According to the text at the beginning, the dude Brian, er Raul, could have rolled that wall in 60 seconds. Then another 60 seconds to cut it in. Then, about 90 minutes of pole sanding to prepare for paint, which will be applied in the same manner. That sure did show the efficiency of the 18". Ralph is right, he does alot of little things that the rest of us don't. :blink:


That wall can easily be rolled in half the time the video shows. I know thats hard for you to grasp but im clearly rolling that wall casually.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Should watch the whole vid NEPS, the whole wall got last stroke down and if you had the slightest clue about painting you would clearly know all the benefits of rolling 1st then cutting on 1st coat. You are one guy on here who keeps on with nothing but BS and I seriously and floored by your ignorance. You make yourself look like a fool when you say stuff like that.


Okay Ru Paul, you da man!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Should watch the whole vid NEPS, the whole wall got last stroke down and if you had the slightest clue about painting you would clearly know all the benefits of rolling 1st then cutting on 1st coat. You are one guy on here who keeps on with nothing but BS and I seriously and floored by your ignorance. You make yourself look like a fool when you say stuff like that.


That was VP ..donkey. Maybe you should read. You are embarrassing. If you pulled that crap on one of my sites you would be tossed. I guess that is why you were here posting your great advice all day today. Your a hack.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> That was VP ..donkey. Maybe you should read. You are embarrassing. If you pulled that crap on one of my sites you would be tossed. I guess that is why you were here posting your great advice all day today. Your a hack.


My bad. Are you seriously (trying) to tell me that rolling 1st is wrong. I would love to know why. Then I might tell you all the reasons (advantages) of rolling 1st vs cutting first on first coat. If you're nice.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*Jack Pauhl...*

I appreciate your video. And I appreciate that you are trying to challange established notions in the industry. You aren't afraid to push the envelope or go against the grain. Those are all good things.

I saw your video rolling with 18 inch roller.

All in all that's pretty good efficiency. I have a few questions.

1: did you add water to that PVA? It sounds and looks very thin. This can be a good thing when priming. We used to cut PVA back in 1990 to spray and back roll.

2: Why aren't you spraying and back-rolling? With two guys spraying an backrolling is at least 3 times faster if not more than the fastest you could possibly roll that wall even sprinting. AND the corners would be done. Which is another question. Even if you could roll that wall in 60 seconds...That would be full out SPRINTING. Sprinting for 8 hours is not realistic.

3. You changed your form over the course of the wall. When laying off your nap, for the first 1/4 of the wall you rolled up and down, then you switched to only straight down. I think both can work, but why a different form 1/4 way through?

4: At 1:16 when you got to the end of the wall, it sounds like you scraped the sheetrock mud. Did it gouge there?

These questions are not meant to be antagonistic. I would like to discuss and refine methodology. This is a good learning experience.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> My bad. Are you seriously (trying) to tell me that rolling 1st is wrong. I would love to know why. Then I might tell you all the reasons (advantages) of rolling 1st vs cutting first on first coat. If you're nice.


I love how you slide the roller to each move on your last pass across the wall. What technique is that? Nice texture to the wall too.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Is it just me or does something about rolling first then cutting just seem like putting your underwear on top of your pants?


There are some good reasons to roll primer first. The most important being that when you cut in sometimes the mud is delicate enough that your paint brush will actually scratch or gouge it.

By rolling first, and letting the primer dry, this minimizes the area of the mud that will be affected when cutting in. I roll real tight in the corners, and there is only about 1/2 to cut.

However I spray and backroll all new wall board so it's a moot point for me.

However when I occasionally have to paint just a bathroom, or one room I will not spray.

I roll the walls first when priming, then cut.

But EVERY other coat other than the PVA gets cut THEN rolled as one normally would.




vermontpainter said:


> That was some professional rolling, especially where he slides it around on the wall and then runs it horizontally across the wall.


That part was a little weird. I think the purpose of that was to remove excess paint from the roller before laying off the nap, but I am not sure.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I appreciate your video. And I appreciate that you are trying to challange established notions in the industry. You aren't afraid to push the envelope or go against the grain. Those are all good things.
> 
> I saw your video rolling with 18 inch roller.
> 
> ...


1) No water. I don't thin it, too much ****in around. I think that was ICI 1410 low sheen. Sounds loud on video, hollow room no flooring.

2) I can move three 5's in under 2 hours by myself, about 2100 to 2300 sq ft home with 9' ceilings. I have no problem rolling a nice pace for a few hours, even 4 hours. I never spray walls because I cant stand wasting paint, the mess of it and I can spread 15 gallons faster than 2 guys spraying and backrolling and cleaning the rig. Please dont argue that with me.  Gotta just take my word on that.

3) Simple after thought. I was rolling this room and came around to the wall the video starts on. I had to back track. The first 18" on that wall got it twice. For this paint it doesnt matter on 1st coat if it gets last stroke down but on second coat it does. This paint penetrates very well and still leaves a nice surface to sand. It was pointless. Just demonstrating it.

4) I run the arm into the corner intentionally. Its rounded and will leave a trail but what I do is not fully shown in the video.

When I get 18" from the corner (end of video) I go to the next wall and run 18" there then go back to the wall in the video and run it directly into the corner then clean it up on the next wall. Back n forth so its tight then clean it up and go.

I have different styles for different paints. Im so into the "system" i tweak everything to specifically what I am spreading. Like I cant roll for example ICI Diamond the way I did in the video, two paints are breeds apart.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I love how you slide the roller to each move on your last pass across the wall. What technique is that? Nice texture to the wall too.


LOL, no lazy. Last room of the day. That rig weighs 100 lbs after a couple hours.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> My bad. Are you seriously (trying) to tell me that rolling 1st is wrong. I would love to know why. Then I might tell you all the reasons (advantages) of rolling 1st vs cutting first on first coat. If you're nice.


I have never brushed primer on drywall. I have always sprayed in back rolled. I have maybe done 1 drywall house in the last 12 years. We only see plaster homes here in the northeast. The only drywall we see is on commercial sites and 75% of the time the tapers prime.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Let me clarify this statement.
"I can spread 15 gallons faster than 2 guys spraying and backrolling and cleaning the rig"

You would need more than 15 gallons to spray vs what rolling gets you with 15 gallons. You will spend more on materials and labor than I will rolling it.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I have never brushed primer on drywall. I have always sprayed in back rolled. I have maybe done 1 drywall house in the last 12 years. We only see plaster homes here in the northeast. The only drywall we see is on commercial sites and 75% of the time the tapers prime.



This is a perfect example of what I was trying to point out with that longwinded post about standards and communication.

The job types that everyone does are different. So one person might aquire a set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types he always encounters, and another person might aquire a different set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types HE encounters.

Then we waste time arguing back and forth that "this brush" is better, or "this spackle" is better etc. without ever SPECIFYING what the needs of the job type are.

Like a logger saying "A chain saw works best". And a landscaper saying "a hedge trimmer works best" while arguing with each other and never describing anything about what their application is.

Futility.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> My bad. Are you seriously (trying) to tell me that rolling 1st is wrong. I would love to know why. Then I might tell you all the reasons (advantages) of rolling 1st vs cutting first on first coat. If you're nice.



Jack, why are you so incessant on keeping your perceived helpful secrets. No one here appreciates or acknowledges them. We don't give a crap if you think were nice or not as you hopefully posted before. I, as many others know that rolling offers a thicker coat than the cut, and covers better. Rolling first, on the first coat, can leave a cleaner line to cut to, and can help prevent picture framing. Stop acting like you are the PAINT QUEEN and post like someone who doesn't have an agenda.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I have never brushed primer on drywall. I have always sprayed in back rolled. I have maybe done 1 drywall house in the last 12 years. We only see plaster homes here in the northeast. The only drywall we see is on commercial sites and 75% of the time the tapers prime.


Why do the tapers prime? Just part of their bid? I'd try steeling that away. I had a drywall company try to pull that crap on me with a builder. Seriously, leave it to a painter to determine what is best.

Goes back to the question of what primer to use I keep talking about. How does the tapers have any clue what finish will be applied over their work. Its that BS thinking that as long as it has primer it must be fine and that couldn't be further from the truth.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> This is a perfect example of what I was trying to point out with that longwinded post about standards and communication.
> 
> The job types that everyone does are different. So one person might aquire a set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types he always encounters, and another person might aquire a different set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types HE encounters.
> 
> ...


Good point. The point of video was only demonstrating the efficiency of an 18 and nothing more. I remember talking on other forums when I made that video and most guys were not using 18's and asking about them. So I threw together a quick demonstration trying to roll slow and casual to be more realistic in comparing to average guy rolling with a nine.

Thats why I dont talk in those videos. Each video was made for specific reasons and had I wanted it to be known I would have mentioned details.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Dude, you are over the top.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

painttofish said:


> Jack, why are you so incessant on keeping your perceived helpful secrets. No one here appreciates or acknowledges them. We don't give a crap if you think were nice or not as you hopefully posted before. I, as many others know that rolling offers a thicker coat than the cut, and covers better. Rolling first, on the first coat, can leave a cleaner line to cut to, and can help prevent picture framing. Stop acting like you are the PAINT QUEEN and post like someone who doesn't have an agenda.


Sorry, I was under the impression everybody already knows all this stuff I post and its just a waste of time. 

Seriously though, I have everything tweaked to ridiculous levels to allow me to do what I claim I can do. I honestly cant post every single thing or I would never get anything done but those of you questioning my methods - all I can say is hang tight, let me share mine, you share yours and maybe at some point as time goes on and more posts are made that the bigger picture starts to develop. I'm all about learning what others do and I dont care how good you are, its a good idea to know how others do things too.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Let me clarify this statement.
> "I can spread 15 gallons faster than 2 guys spraying and backrolling and cleaning the rig"
> 
> You would need more than 15 gallons to spray vs what rolling gets you with 15 gallons. You will spend more on materials and labor than I will rolling it.


I *must* protest. Quadruple fat chance. 

First of all, you have to go back and cut in all the corners. 15 gallons is a LOT of corners.

secondly, there are ALL kinds of heights, angles, and difficult to reach walls (not to mention CEILINGS) that will get painted WAY faster with a 4 foot extension spray wand with angle adapter, and a second guy rolling.

If you are painting a 20 foot wall, everytime you reload your paint you have to come all the way down. A lot of times, you have to shorten the extension JUST to load the roller EVERY time you load it.

Third. A lot of times, you can bypass the backrolling either on the first or second coat of finish paint. (not the primer, primer is ALWAYS backrolled.) This step can be saved usually in the spots that are hardest to paint.

Also you can spray out ENTIRE closets without backrolling on one or two finish coats depending on circumstances.

I can spray out an ENTIRE large closet in under a minute. This means corners, walls, and everything.

Can you cut and roll a large closet in under a minute? Not likely.

I think you have a lot of good ideas JP. I think you are on the right track simply for making a point of trying to see what can be improved and to document methods and compare efficiency. It shows initative and a drive for progress.

I think sometimes you might benefit from the realization, that in just the same way you have things you have discovered that are more efficient than other painters, there are other painters, who have things they know that are more efficient than your methods.

Just food for thought.

BTW. I am not even remotely offended by your disagreement with me.

I just know you are being overly optimistic on this particular issue.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> I *must* protest. Quadruple fat chance.
> 
> First of all, you have to go back and cut in all the corners. 15 gallons is a LOT of corners.
> 
> ...


I can appreciate that. Im speaking from experience working with hundreds of painters. Why cant I ever find good guys that can produce? I honestly do not believe that a home lets say 2200 sq ft with 9' ceilings can be sprayed and back rolled quicker with 15 gallons. No paint on ceilings, windows, or sub flooring. Let me say this, I've seen guys do this day in and day out and what they do is 2 guys spray and backroll but by the time they get set up to shoot, im leaving the job I rolled.

"Can you cut and roll a large closet in under a minute? Not likely." How large?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

What really sucks Jack is that you didn't tackle world hunger or time travel

Just think where the world could be with you at the scientific helm:notworthy:


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Sorry, I was under the impression everybody already knows all this stuff I post and its just a waste of time. .


So, what you post is a waste of time..... I agree:thumbsup:


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## 1977corey (Feb 27, 2009)

how large?......................wow


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

LC we should do a new post on this. Interesting. I would love to learn how its possible. I can gather details. I would think it would take some time to run a shop vac along the baseboards and electrical boxes to avoid all that drywall dust but maybe there are ways around doing that I may have overlooked.

Do you put plastic around tubs etc? How does that work out? Just curious if you do it different than what Ive seen guys do.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> I honestly cant post every single thing or I would never get anything done but those of you questioning my methods.


Im pretty sure we could get along with that hack.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

1977corey said:


> how large?......................wow


What? Thats a legit question! Things like closets can be rolled tight. Im assuming for 60 secs it not that big.


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## 1977corey (Feb 27, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> What? Thats a legit question! Things like closets can be rolled tight. Im assuming for 60 secs it not that big.


you seriously think you could apply more coverage area in a closet by ROLLING, than as by applying more coverage area by spraying?
dude, think about it....dont MATTER what size the closet is, for me, i'd put that puppy on full blast, and then a simple flick of the wrist, and few squeezes on the trigger.....yeah baby


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Let me say this, I've seen guys do this day in and day out and what they do is 2 guys spray and backroll but by the time they get set up to shoot, im leaving the job I rolled.


When you say leaving the job you rolled, you mean _CUT_ and rolled right?

First of all you are basing your example on one instance of two guys setting up to spray?

I have a question. You have seen two guys take as long to set up for spray as it takes you to prime an entire house.

Do you PERSONALLY have any experience spraying and back-rolling? And I don't just mean trying it once or twice. I mean say working for a company for at least a year who was proficient at the process?

It would be helpful to know if you are comparing two processes that you have learned to their maximum potential, or are you comparing one process that you have learned to it's maximum potential to a process that you aren't personally that familiar with?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Do you put plastic around tubs etc? How does that work out? Just curious if you do it different than what Ive seen guys do.


Yes of course. Plastic over windows, entry doors and tubs. Paper in light cans.

Bear in mind, that time gets subdivided into a primer coat AND one coat of finish.

A lot of the time the first coat of finish (not primer) can just be sprayed on. You can definately just spray the first coat on all the closets without a problem. When flat is used through out, you can often finish out high walls and ceilings too. That can all be done with just the one investment in masking.

Lets say the most obvious example: The PVA has been sprayed and backrolled, and the first coat can be sprayed.

You think when you go back and cut and roll the first coat, that time would come ANY where near the speed of one guy going in the next day after pva and shooting the first coat on when the house just has bare walls?

Remember, under that scenario the ceilings would all be getting their primer and first coat with the house empty. What about a flat with high ceilings? All the high ceilings could get their 3rd coat sprayed and backrolled while the house is empty too. All with that inintial investment to prepare the house to spray.

There are plenty more examples of ways you can cut time by spraying and backrolling. It varies from job to job.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Jack stop hijacking the thread.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Sounds like we need a showdown... 

LC.. that's why JP is here to tell people like you that your doing it wrong and inefficient. I know your trying to be nice with your post # 68. JP is coming off as nice but he really is here mocking the way things get done by "other true professionals"


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> When you say leaving the job you rolled, you mean _CUT_ and rolled right?
> 
> First of all you are basing your example on one instance of two guys setting up to spray?
> 
> ...


LC, I am simply trying to give you a (common) an example. Why it works for me and why it takes me less time than watching and knowing how others do it in my area. A guy spraying has more to worry keeping stuff free from overspray than a guy with a roller.

Here are a few items in a house that a guy spraying would need to address.
Fireplace box
Bare wood on stairs
Bare wood for basement steps
Windows
Bath tub
Shower
Pocket Door Jambs
Fiberglass Entry Doors
Slider or patio doors
Flooring or sub flooring
Drywall Dust around perimeter
Electrical boxes
Ceilings
Inside openings of heating and cooling vents (these are painted black before we start)

When I roll I do not need to do anything to those items before I paint. Walk in, open all 5's and roll. When I'm done rolling I simply bag my covers and load the trays, 5-in-1, frames, poles in the truck and toss 5's into dumpster. Im done. The covers are bagged for use later. Nothing to clean.

No I never worked for a company for 2 years who did it however I've been on jobs where they have and I shake my head at it. I do have experience doing it. Its more common to see a company with 3-4 guys doing this because they are typically hired to "get 1st coat on walls" including the cut. 2 spray/roll 2 cutting. 

It's typically my experience to see the guy back rolling standing around waiting.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Sounds like we need a showdown...
> 
> LC.. that's why JP is here to tell people like you that your doing it wrong and inefficient. I know your trying to be nice with your post # 68. JP is coming off as nice but he really is here mocking the way things get done by "other true professionals"


No MAK. Simply offering my experience and why I do things certain ways. We all know there are countless ways of doing things. Just sharing mine. I never came on here telling anyone how to do their job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> LC, I am simply trying to give you a (common) an example. Why it works for me and why it takes me less time than watching and knowing *how others do it in my area*. A guy spraying has more to worry keeping stuff free from overspray than a guy with a roller.
> 
> It's typically my experience to see the guy back rolling standing around waiting.


Jack, er, Brian

Finally, I get it. You refer way too often to observing others in your area. It must be that the other painters in your area are hacks and you are the best by far in the area. Thats cool for your pond. Welcome to the ocean.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jack, er, Brian
> 
> Finally, I get it. You refer way too often to observing others in your area. It must be that the other painters in your area are hacks and you are the best by far in the area. Thats cool for your pond. Welcome to the ocean.


blah blah blah... It’s really irrelevant, you can be anywhere, even the best 2 guys you can produce (in your area) to do it in 2 hours (in and out) and mask off whatever needs it and have one guy shoot and one guy roll, it’s still 4 man hours. I would be done in 2 eating lunch while you guys remove paper, tape and plastic and clean your rig. Just sayin' 

Let’s say your two guys can together clean it, mask it off and get spraying in an hour, it’s not very likely at all the house can get sprayed and back rolled in the second hour and if it could happen, it’s still 4 man hours and more paint.

Why is this so hard to understand?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> blah blah blah... It’s really irrelevant, you can be anywhere, even the best 2 guys you can produce (in your area) to do it in 2 hours (in and out) and mask off whatever needs it and have one guy shoot and one guy roll, it’s still 4 man hours. I would be done in 2 eating lunch while you guys remove paper, tape and plastic and clean your rig. Just sayin'
> 
> Let’s say your two guys can together clean it, mask it off and get spraying in an hour, it’s not very likely at all the house can get sprayed and back rolled in the second hour and if it could happen, it’s still 4 man hours and more paint.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand?


Jack

You arent understanding scale. Yes, on a small scale, couple of rooms, you may be right. On a 3k sf new house, no, get up to 6 or 10 and you are not going to stand a chance. Ever roll out a 10k sf house manually? 2 guys can mask off an entire 3k sf house in about 2 hours. And spray it in the remaining 6. Thats why I am suggesting that you broaden your perspective. Clearly, you dont understand spraying at a very deep level.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jack
> 
> You arent understanding scale. Yes, on a small scale, couple of rooms, you may be right. On a 3k sf new house, no, get up to 6 or 10 and you are not going to stand a chance. Ever roll out a 10k sf house manually? 2 guys can mask off an entire 3k sf house in about 2 hours. And spray it in the remaining 6. Thats why I am suggesting that you broaden your perspective. Clearly, you dont understand spraying at a very deep level.



Thats my point scott. I was talking a 2200 sq ft house scott. I can roll 3300 in under 4 and according to what you wrote my 4 is still quicker. You would have 4 man hours masking and I would have 4 man-hours painting. I know exactly what you are saying, it very common. Spray in the remaining 6? Holy cow.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Thats my point scott. I was talking a 2200 sq ft house scott. I can roll 3300 in under 4 and according to what you wrote my 4 is still quicker. You would have 4 man hours masking and I would have 4 man-hours painting. I know exactly what you are saying, it very common. Spray in the remaining 6? Holy cow.


Jack

I know that you have a very high opinion of yourself, but in spite of that, sometimes you will be wrong. In this case, you are wrong. 

Plainpainter has the fastest individual production rates on painttalk, handsdown. What you are describing is something that even he could not do. 

I am sorry to break it to you Jack, but you cannot manually cut and roll a 3300 sf home with primer on new drywall in under 4 hours. Perhaps if it was just one big open space with no rooms or partitions, even then not likely. You should come back to painttalk when you arrive at planet earth.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jack

Do you even have any idea how many sf of drywall there are in the ceiling and walls of a 3k sf home? Do the math, and tell me how many sf per minute you would be brush cutting and rolling to prime that house in under 4 hours. Then I will show you how I can run faster than a speeding bullet.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do not think Jack is cutting in, just rolling and leaving also, right???

I have primed out new drywall with a roller and with a sprayer. Spraying and back rolling produces a nicer, solid foundation coat in my opinion.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I do not think Jack is cutting in, just rolling and leaving also, right???
> 
> I have primed out new drywall with a roller and with a sprayer. Spraying and back rolling produces a nicer, solid foundation coat in my opinion.


 
I think he might be skipping a wall here and there too. If you remove enough steps, you can really speed up the process. Its too bad the rolling video he posted was slowed down for educational purposes. :thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> That was my take on it.
> 
> Yep


Well no wonder he cant get eggshell to look right in the joints...:blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I do not think Jack is cutting in, just rolling and leaving also, right???


That was my take on it. 


DeanV said:


> I have primed out new drywall with a roller and with a sprayer. Spraying and back rolling produces a nicer, solid foundation coat in my opinion.


Yep


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Jack
> 
> Do you even have any idea how many sf of drywall there are in the ceiling and walls of a 3k sf home? Do the math, and tell me how many sf per minute you would be brush cutting and rolling to prime that house in under 4 hours. Then I will show you how I can run faster than a speeding bullet.


I'll give you a hint, there are 240 minutes in 4 hours. How many sf of rock on the walls and ceilings of a 3k sf two floor house? Lets get a production rate. Its going to be the only way to put your claim in perspective for all of us wannabes.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Crickets Chirpping?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'll give you another hint...in a 2 story 3k sf house, there is likely to be about 6k sf of rock in the ceilings alone. Now you figure out the walls and add that in. I dont mean just the exterior walls, all the bedrooms with their partition walls, closets, the whole deal. How many sf?

I'll give you another hint, there is more in the walls than the ceilings. 

_Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk to you again..._


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Ahhhh, VP is back and is in shape from his winter respite.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

how do you get 6k ceilings in 3k floor space???


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> how do you get 6k ceilings in 3k floor space???


2 floors. Often the ceilings mirror the floors. With some variation in open spaces like stairways or cathedrals. We are doing a 3k sf contemporary where the ceilings mirror the floors exactly.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

DeanV said:


> how do you get 6k ceilings in 3k floor space???


Clue:

Upstairs and ...?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

When I say a 3,000 sq. ft. home, it includes all finished areas, main floor, upper floor, basement, hallways, where ever (except garage). So (unless I am having a brain fart), there are 3,000 sq. ft. of ceilings.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> 2 floors. Often the ceilings mirror the floors. With some variation in open spaces like stairways or cathedrals. We are doing a 3k sf contemporary where the ceilings mirror the floors exactly.


I would think that a 3k sq ft house is total floor space on both floors. not basement tho.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Tooled;

How many square meters would that be?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

damn same time Dean..


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jack
> 
> I know that you have a very high opinion of yourself, but in spite of that, sometimes you will be wrong. In this case, you are wrong.
> 
> ...


Scott, hang on man. Your production rates and mine are not even close. Its no wonder why I get so much flack. I can roll by myself a 3300 sq ft home with a 16' great room and foyer in under 4 easy. Not cut.

Another example: me and another guy rolled a 5800 sq ft. home 47 gallons in 3.5 hrs. This house had every PITA feature you can stick in a home along with 20' great rm through 20' foyer, 4 stairways. So when you tell me I'm not on earth, I cant help but to shake my head (like I always do) when I talk production rates on these boards. Its becoming very clear that what I read here is the exact same I experience locally. I see no difference. 

I should also say, I track everything to the minute. So i don't want you thinking I'm coming on here talking off the top of my head. I can pull up documentation on any house I did and know exactly what it took.

Look, bottom line is this. I claim to do a lot like the saving 13k and this post is exactly part of how I can do that. Changing methods. Spraying inherently has disadvantages over rolling in this case. Your example puts 16 man hours on that job, even with my cut, I bet I would be 6-8 tops in man hours and this is such a tiny thing to cut man hours from in the wide scope of painting a home.

I can post pics if you need them of the 5800 sq ft home.

So I agree, I cant cut AND roll 3300 in under 4 but I would have it done before 2pm.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Triple post dead ahead at 6:00 Captain, look out.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That would be a very small house to have only a 1500 sf footprint. I am talking 3000 sf footprint, which is 50x60' for instance of footprint. Then the same for the upstairs. There is a big difference between sf of finished living space and sf of footprint.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I do not think Jack is cutting in, just rolling and leaving also, right???
> 
> I have primed out new drywall with a roller and with a sprayer. Spraying and back rolling produces a nicer, solid foundation coat in my opinion.


Right, no ceilings. Just roll and go.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> That would be a very small house to have only a 1500 sf footprint. I am talking 3000 sf footprint, which is 50x60' for instance of footprint. Then the same for the upstairs. There is a big difference between sf of finished living space and sf of footprint.


I am sure that JP is saying 3300 total sq ft floor space not double.. Were talking floor space here..


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Tooled;
> 
> How many square meters would that be?


square feet is a measure of area, so you could think of a square that has dimensions which are the square root of 3000 feet to get how many feet on a side, then convert to meters.

square root of 3000 is 54.77 feet, so the square is 54.77 feet on a side. 

1 meter = 3.2808399 feet, so 

54.77/ 3.2808399 = 16.694 feet on a side

or if you want square feet, square the answer
16.694 squared = 278.7 square meters

or 

(3000 ft^2)*[(12^2 in^2)/(ft^2)]*[(2.54^2 cm^2)/(in^2)]*[(1 m^2)/(100^2 cm^2)] 

3000 ft^2 = 278.7 m^2


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> I am sure that JP is saying 3300 total sq ft floor space not double.. Were talking floor space here..


Turns out no ceilings or cutting either. This is sounding like a great paint job.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That would be a very small house to have only a 1500 sf footprint. I am talking 3000 sf footprint, which is 50x60' for instance of footprint. Then the same for the upstairs. There is a big difference between sf of finished living space and sf of footprint.


Dif between 1900-3300 is only 1 more room usually, 1 more bath and larger open areas.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

So now we are not priming ceiling nor cutting in. Do you paint ceilings at a later time, or call them good enough with the unsealed texture from drywallers?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Turns out no ceilings or cutting either. This is sounding like a great paint job.


No I dont do those homes that get one coat, one color and one type of paint on the whole house and ceilings. I do only custom stuff.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> square feet is a measure of area, so you could think of a square that has dimensions which are the square root of 3000 feet to get how many feet on a side, then convert to meters.
> 
> square root of 3000 is 54.77 feet, so the square is 54.77 feet on a side.
> 
> ...


 

Well........I asked and am now totally confused. Metric system, who needs it!! 

I hope you have to buy paint in gallons!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> No I dont do those homes that get one coat, one color and one type of paint on the whole house and ceilings. *I do only custom stuff*.


:thumbup: It shows.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Custom and rolling 3000 sq ft in a day seems to be an oxymoron?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Well........I asked and am now totally confused. Metric system, who needs it!!
> 
> I hope you have to buy paint in gallons!



I call a 5 litre can a gallon. It's near enough :thumbsup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> I call a 5 litre can a gallon. It's near enough :thumbsup:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> I call a 5 litre can a gallon. It's near enough :thumbsup:


I'd ask how many sq meters a 5 litre can covers but I am still confused from your previous answer. :jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jack

Thanks for the clarification. If you dont cut, or do ceilings, you could roll out a house pretty darn fast. And yes, that would be custom, or at least unique. You are too much.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Jack,

When you post of your amazing time saving methods, but leave out details (because you want people to apparently pay for them), you really are just advertising without paying for it. 

And then we find out that you are not cutting in the prime or painting the ceilings. Really, this is just cutting corners, not revolutionizing the paint industry with your wizardry. When I do a repaint of a home with unpainted textured ceilings, I say ummm, looks like a hack painter did this job. Cutting corners to save time is not what I or others are about here. 

You really need to either start being specific when you post, or just pay for an add banner. Enough with the smoke and mirrors.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Jack,
> 
> When you post of your amazing time saving methods, but leave out details (because you want people to apparently pay for them), you really are just advertising without paying for it.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup::clap::thumbup1:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

What Dean said...


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> What Dean said...


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I can see why a lot of Jack's methods are top secret now.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


>


NO NO its like this


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> NO NO its like this


Isn't that #38 in the kama sutra?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> NO NO its like this



yours looks like hes squatting a dumping a turd!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> Isn't that #38 in the kama sutra?





MAK-Deco said:


> yours looks like hes squatting a dumping a turd!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Instead of Jack Pauhl's painting techniques I would be more interested in his pricing. If I rushed and tried rolling 3k sq/ft in 2 hours in any of my customers sites I would be fired. Quality not quantity. It could be that Jack Pauhl is alway under the profit margin gun and he HAS to complete the job in 2 hours to be profitable. I have seen no evidence of quality in any of his videos. 

I'm sure Jack Paulh is going to reply with ... "I know you are but what am I" or "Im the bestest and highest paid painter on the planet", but the fact remains that I do not have to jump through my asshole or pull a rabbit out of a hat in order to make money painting. 

Jack must be at his night job stocking shelves at Home Depot. It is amazing that the wonder kid has time to post here all day during business hours. Clean up asle 7.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I finally got it NEPS, he keeps referring to all the painters in his area...he is the best of a weak lot. Put him up against any kind of good pitching and he wouldnt get the bat on the ball.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Jack,
> 
> When you post of your amazing time saving methods, but leave out details (because you want people to apparently pay for them), you really are just advertising without paying for it.
> 
> ...


Dean I made it clear I am not selling anything here. Its the builders choice not mine to not paint ceilings because the drywall finish is nice enough to leave as-is. I think there is a difference when you have a hack drywall job with spots of bare drywall showing. I imagine you need to paint then. Do you honestly think is the builder says NOT to paint ceilings I automatically become a hack? huh interesting concept.

Not cutting on first coat is all part of the plan. Its a time management issue.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Why do the tapers prime? Just part of their bid? I'd try steeling that away. I had a drywall company try to pull that crap on me with a builder. Seriously, leave it to a painter to determine what is best.
> 
> Goes back to the question of what primer to use I keep talking about. How does the tapers have any clue what finish will be applied over their work. Its that BS thinking that as long as it has primer it must be fine and that couldn't be further from the truth.


Ever been on a commercial job?

Primers and paint are found in the finish schedule and are done by the architect. Seriously, leave it to a architect to determine what is best.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> This is a perfect example of what I was trying to point out with that longwinded post about standards and communication.
> 
> The job types that everyone does are different. So one person might aquire a set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types he always encounters, and another person might aquire a different set of standards, tools, materials that are best for the job types HE encounters.
> 
> ...


Exactly LC. Once again I agree. The problem with Jack is that he can not see the forest through the trees.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Instead of Jack Pauhl's painting techniques I would be more interested in his pricing. If I rushed and tried rolling 3k sq/ft in 2 hours in any of my customers sites I would be fired. Quality not quantity. It could be that Jack Pauhl is alway under the profit margin gun and he HAS to complete the job in 2 hours to be profitable. I have seen no evidence of quality in any of his videos.
> 
> I'm sure Jack Paulh is going to reply with ... "I know you are but what am I" or "Im the bestest and highest paid painter on the planet", but the fact remains that I do not have to jump through my asshole or pull a rabbit out of a hat in order to make money painting.
> 
> Jack must be at his night job stocking shelves at Home Depot. It is amazing that the wonder kid has time to post here all day during business hours. Clean up asle 7.



I've been told I can be expensive but I'm not doing the status quo quality. My whole being efficient is because I like to get in and get out so can have a life to post on here. iPhones are great! I can post anywhere anytime, Im efficient like that . Posting here is like sending a text message with unrestricted length. I will be posting this evening from the living room watching the eliminations on American Idol with the girls. Earlier I sent a post on 75 heading to paint store. I'm sending this post feeding the baby on my lap. 

NEPS I have a lot of close up photos on my website. Did you see the wall finish photo for eggshell paints? That way you can see the quality. If you want I can send you a 3000 pixel pic if you need more hi-res clarity.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> iPhones are great! I can post anywhere anytime, Im efficient like that . Posting here is like sending a text message with unrestricted length. I will be posting this evening from the living room watching the eliminations on American Idol with the girls. Earlier I sent a post on 75 heading to paint store. I'm sending this post feeding the baby on my lap.
> quote]
> 
> And you dont see a problem with any of that?
> ...


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Ever been on a commercial job?
> 
> Primers and paint are found in the finish schedule and are done by the architect. Seriously, leave it to a architect to determine what is best.


Yes I have. Painted the BAYER building last year here in OH. My focus is residential so i only do light com like offices. I made an exception to do the BAYER building. Commercial is beyond what me and one other person can do. I wont hire help other than an occasional bailout.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

JP you posted a video of a guy rolling one wall, that guy was not braking no production rates, why not post a video of you working at that these fast productions rates you speak of here. Man I would hate to have roll at super human speed all day. Do you have to have a special diet, and train as a athlete to make such fast production rates possible? Post a video


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Yes I have. Painted the BAYER building last year here in OH. My focus is residential so i only do light com like offices. I made an exception to do the BAYER building. Commercial is beyond what me and one other person can do. I wont hire help other than an occasional bailout.


There is some more info in my understanding of how you operate. 

Interesting.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Dave Mac said:


> JP you posted a video of a guy rolling one wall, that guy was not braking no production rates, why not post a video of you working at that these fast productions rates you speak of here. Man I would hate to have roll at super human speed all day. Do you have to have a special diet, and train as a athlete to make such fast production rates possible? Post a video


Really Dave I'm not sure I'm moving overly fast. Im just moving steady. It does have a lot to do with product in this case than the technique rolling. But like everything, so many variables make it happen, tools, product, etc. 

Seriously take a second to look at this: Im kinda done with this thread.

In the video I start painting at 0:15 and finish at 1:25 +/- a sec. The total time to roll this wall is 1:25 secs and I just watched it and I can tell you I am moving at a snails pace, slow and casual. This room is 12'-14' square. This is a dining room that has a double window on the next wall im rolling to and the double wide opening many dining rooms have. If it were a box it would be 5 mins rolling at a snails pace like in the video.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

:yawn::sleeping:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> :yawn::sleeping:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Jack. How many times have you sprayed and back-rolled? And was it working for someone who is proficient at it. 

_Fireplace box_

Sometimes.

Bare wood on stairs

??? Around here trim goes in AFTER the drop coat is sprayed.
_
Bare wood for basement steps_

Again. ???

_Pocket Door Jambs_

I can mask that track in 30 seconds. There is no way you can brush out the raw sheet rock in that track in 30 seconds. Even if you could, I can put 3 coats on at 2 seconds per coat for the time it takes me to mask it once.

Flooring or sub flooring

For God's sakes why? There's all kinds of markings and foot prints allover it. And it will get covered by carpet pad, or hardwood floors. Occasionally there is something special for tile etc to kkep paint off of. Big whoop. 
_
Drywall Dust around perimeter
Electrical boxes_

I rarely have to clean either of those two items.

_Ceilings_

You keep saying this. Excuse me? Around here we PAINT ceilings. You just leave the bare sheet rock where you are? As a matter of fact the painting of ceilings is one of the biggest advantages of spraying and backrolling.

_Inside openings of heating and cooling vents (these are painted black before we start)_

You cant see the insides of a heat register ducting so protecting them OR painting them black is a huge waste of time.
_
No I never worked for a company for 2 years who did it however I've been on jobs where they have and I shake my head at it._

I said ONE year, and this means you have never worked for a company who sprayed and backrolled proficiently.

_It's typically my experience to see the guy back rolling standing around waiting.

_This is exactly my point. You apparantly haven't seen spraying and back-rolling being done even CLOSE to how it should be, and you are comparing your method of cutting and rolling to a completely sub par example of spraying and back-rolling.

The spraying ALLWAYS goes faster than the backrolling. The sprayer has to stop every few walls and wait for a minute for the guy rolling to catch up.

Ans since you have displayed such an absolute ignorance about the process of spraying and backrolling, please dont_ speculate_ that the time the spray guy has to stop and wait for a minute slows the procedure down to where your way of painting is faster.

You simply don't actually know how efficient spraying and backrolling is, because you are completely unfamiliar with any decent examples of the process, including the one or two times you have tried it.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)




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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Jack. How many times have you sprayed and back-rolled? And was it working for someone who is proficient at it.
> 
> _Fireplace box_
> 
> ...


Nicely said...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Last Craftsman;65059.
And since you have displayed such an absolute ignorance about the process of spraying and backrolling said:


> speculate[/I] that the time the spray guy has to stop and wait for a minute slows the procedure down to where your way of painting is faster.


I have sprayed 55 gallons of primer this week with a new employee (training). He is 23 and working his ass off to keep with me on the sprayer. When I am waiting for him to catch up, I am either topping off the bucket on the sprayer, or getting this guy his water bottle from the last room. Well said LC.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Its the builders choice not mine to not paint ceilings because the drywall finish is nice enough to leave as-is. I think there is a difference when you have a hack drywall job with spots of bare drywall showing. I imagine you need to paint then. Do you honestly think is the builder says NOT to paint ceilings I automatically become a hack? huh interesting concept.


WTF:confused1:
Not painting ceilings at in NC is that what you are saying?


jack pauhl said:


> Not cutting on first coat is all part of the plan. Its a time management issue.


I have seen a lot of people roll the walls out before cutting so that they get some paint on the walls to draw the thing. Is that part of the plan?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'll give you another hint...in a 2 story 3k sf house, there is likely to be about 6k sf of rock in the ceilings alone. Now you figure out the walls and add that in. I dont mean just the exterior walls, all the bedrooms with their partition walls, closets, the whole deal. How many sf?
> 
> I'll give you another hint, there is more in the walls than the ceilings.
> 
> _Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk to you again..._


Yeah, and it's likely there will be some VAULTED ceilings in a 3 k sf house.

What about high curved staircases, entry promenades and other tall hard to paint features? How long does it take to cut and roll those?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> square feet is a measure of area, so you could think of a square that has dimensions which are the square root of 3000 feet to get how many feet on a side, then convert to meters.
> 
> square root of 3000 is 54.77 feet, so the square is 54.77 feet on a side.
> 
> ...



I would say this constitutes a ban. I don't want to see more decimals than it takes to calculate the price of gas. I don't even know what those up arrows mean. It makes my head hurt. Please stop.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Jack. How many times have you sprayed and back-rolled? And was it working for someone who is proficient at it.
> 
> _Fireplace box_
> 
> ...


LOL, Rob and I have been following this thread and he said the same thing almost verbatim! He has developed a system of masking and spraying that is poetry to watch!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Jack Pauhl approaches this forum and his blog like he approaches his business. No one is good enough to work with him. He refuses to hire and grow because he is one of those painters that believe no one is as good as he is. He will be stuck rolling walls at a ridiculous pace to make a profit on his sub par new construction job. This is the same manner in which he attacks this forum. His way or the highway. In his small world of painting he believes he has it all figured out and his ways are the fastest, most efficient and provide the best quality possible. He doesnt care what a painter from Chicago or a painter from Vermont does like he claims. He is here to beat his own chest for his own gain.

We are a group of contractors of all sizes and levels and not one of us seem to agree with his thinking. While coming on this site has helped to gain hits on his blog (which he can send those results to perspective sponsors) it has hurt his credibility. All Jack Pauhl gets is negative feedback and is deserving of every last word. I encourage all of you to use his full name when criticizing him. Google searches will pull your posts.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> LOL, Rob and I have been following this thread and he said the same thing almost verbatim! He has developed a system of masking and spraying that is poetry to watch!


Chris

I dont spray nearly as much as Rob or NEPS, but when I do, I appreciate the little nuances. Particularly things like how no matter how much you dust the walls and corners you always find some when starting a wall/ceiling joint. Its cool how you can blow dust away from the corners using the gun, without even getting any primer on the wall...muzzle blast control, if you will. There are alot of little tricks that a truly innovative person who likes process and efficiency would really appreciate.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

This is funny. You guys are arguing over the fastest part of our work. ooooooh I rolled a wall 3 seconds faster than you did. Big deal. Now if you could show us a faster way to glaze old sashes I might care.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daren said:


> This is funny. You guys are arguing over the fastest part of our work. ooooooh I rolled a wall 3 seconds faster than you did. Big deal. Now if you could show us a faster way to glaze old sashes I might care.


Daren

Go back and read the thread. You are missing alot if you think thats the argument.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

daren said:


> Now if you could show us a faster way to glaze old sashes I might care.


That's my favorite. :yes:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*J.P...*



jack pauhl said:


> Dean I made it clear I am not selling anything here. Its the builders choice not mine to not paint ceilings because the drywall finish is nice enough to leave as-is.


Could someone PLEASE tell me what I have been arguing about for this entire thread?

Jack are you telling me that: 

*A*: This entire time you were comparing how long it takes you to paint ONLY walls without cutting in corners?, to how long it takes me to paint walls, corners AND ceilings? Then you would arrive at a conclusion where you make the blanket pronouncement that:

"Rolling primer is faster than spraying and back-rolling primer"?

This is like saying that: 

'a butter knife can chop though a toothpick faster than a chainsaw can chop a cord of wood, therefore the butter knife is more efficient at cutting through wood products.'

*B*: You actually _DON'T_ paint the ceilings? I was JOKING. I was being intentionally over-the-top absurd. Not in *million* years would I have imagined that this entire time you were referring to a painting "strategy" that DOESN'T involve painting ceilings!

Furthermore...What on earth do you mean the builder thinks "the drywall finish is nice enough to leave as is"???

Are we talking about the same thing here? You mean sheet-rock seamed together with tape, and drywall mud floated over the seams right? Even if the mud was floated to make a continuous layer, this is an option?

I have never heard of unpainted sheet-rock as a finish option. Do they at least blow the dry wall dust off so it doesn't fall into the homeowner's Cheerios when their kids slam the front door? 

Do they paint the ceilings of the bathrooms at least? Or is brown waterstained Beadex melting from the ceiling and forming a delta in the shower drain part of "the Look"

----------

Why has it not ocurred to you to mention during this entire thread that you were comparing the time it takes to NOT cut in the corners to the time it takes to cut in the corners AND walls/ceilings.

So you _don't_ cut in the corners???

This must be where the expression "cutting corners" comes from. The irony being that in actuality you _AREN'T_ cutting the corners.

---------------

I am not even opposed to the possibility that you have a "time management" method of *not priming the corners*. Fine, I am open to this. If you have a way of skipping this step that results in an aesthetically acceptable result, I am all ears. 

*Explain the procedure to me.* I am listening. But why would you repeatedly insist others are wrong, then refuse to illustrate your reasoning/evidence?

I don't mind if your inclination is to keep your knowledge secret. That is fine also. But it feels like you are cultivating strawman arguments by trying to get people to argue that (5) is less than (10), then after they have stated their positition, you are going to change the definition of what (10) means so the value actually represents (1), then say: "See you guys were wrong, and I was right". Which would be disengenous because the people were never arguing that (5) was less than (1) in the first place.

---------

I have been trying to keep an open mind. I was all for the idea someone has been doing research, and comparisons, and progressive experimentation rather than getting stuck in the same pattern they have been repeating for the last 20 years.

If you are going to keep you information secret that is totally ok. I guess I would recomend you don't challenge people about their methods, then be vague and evasive about yours.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Can we please get a thank you button like at CT!:thumbup:
LC, thank you!!!!
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Usually when you cant give all the information, you dont have all the answers. It aint a perfect "painter's world" and it never will be.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The only thing I think LC is missing from the equation is that the ceilings are textured, probably stomped and if the drywalls put a heavy coat on, they will often look mostly uniform in color. So, some companies will skip ceilings in the painting process.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DeanV said:


> The only thing I think LC is missing from the equation is that the ceilings are textured, probably stomped and if the drywalls put a heavy coat on, they will often look mostly uniform in color. So, some companies will skip ceilings in the painting process.


This must be a mid-west thing. I have never heard of it. What do you mean by "probably stomped"?

I have actually noticed before that I like the look of unfinished texture. I can't imagine that it would have the durability needed to maintain an equilibrium.

BTW. They wouldn't leave the ceilings unfinished in the bathrooms, correct?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Usually bathroom ceilings are painted, but I bought a house that was about 15 years old and the way water splashed onto the stomped ceiling and soaked in seemed to imply it was not primed or painted.

It can be annoying on repaints if you forget to factor in that the ceiling you are painting may be getting its first coat of paint ever, and go through twice the planned material.

Stomped texture is when the drywallers used those mop-like things to put texture on (also called crow's feet). Check out this link for pictures http://www.drywallschool.com/textures.htm.

The higher end homes more often have smooth ceilings. I think it is cheaper to finish ceilings with the stomp texture, since the seams do not have to be as thoroughly done. Standard procedure is to at least hit them with one coat of white in all but the cheapest of homes.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

On another forum Jack Paulh was stating just using primer as a finish for ceilings. So I guess that was a special request. I can't imagine leaving ceilings with only a drywall finish. I guess in some texture situations it could be like popcorn ceilings but stomped ceilings are suppose to get painted. Are they not? He also never came back to this thread to clarify this ceiling stuff.

As I said before some people that are looking for a draw or trying to give the impression of stuff getting done will roll out the walls without cutting them in.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Stomped ceilings in my area very rarely get painted.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Sorry about all the confusion, the details were posted on #81 - #86 then further clarified on #104. 

I’m not sure why people thought it was painting ceilings too. 

So that would mean 1 guy spraying and 1 guy backrolling a 2200 sq ft house would have to mask off whatever you feel you need to and put 1st coat on the walls without hitting the ceiling in 1 hour. I have to say I am surprised so many guys can do that. 2 guys working for 1 hour is 2 man-hours.

I would paint the ceilings if I could but its rare on the more expensive homes here locally but common for the national builders who build locally to shoot 1 color (same paint) on walls, ceilings and closets.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Sorry about all the confusion, the details were posted on #81 - #86 then further clarified on #104.
> 
> I’m not sure why people thought it was painting ceilings too.
> 
> ...


In high end custom new construction, to skip the ceilings in the priming stage is unheard of around here. The ceilings usually are not very white then and look dingy compared to ones that get hit with white. Add in how dirt and cobwebs stick more to raw mud for the future homeowners. Even in the cheapest tract homes I do, I shoot the ceilings. Even if they look solidly white.

I do not do it, since I do not spray finish coats on walls, but you would be surprised how well a lot of guys can work a paint spray shield along ceiling lines. 

For me, a sprayed coat of primer that IS backrolled is the best way to help hide the texture on the face paper of drywall, help sets a constant texture to the wall to hide the texture difference between seams and the drywall. The painter I used to work for would have use roll the drywall primer on the walls and cut it later (with primer). Sure it rolls on fast if you are not rolling ceilings as well. But, after compared the two methods, the walls clearly looked better with a sprayed and backrolled coat of primer.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Sorry about all the confusion, the details were posted on #81 - #86 then further clarified on #104.
> 
> I’m not sure why people thought it was painting ceilings too.
> .


That does help to clear up the dispute. I definitely was under the impression the entire time that you were talking about rolling AND cutting, AND painting ceilings.

This is the confusion that can happen when we don't clarify things.

The confusion wasn't just about ceilings, it was also that people assumed you were talking about rolling AND cutting in, They assumed you were referring to completing the primer stage, not just completing part of it.

I made this statement in post #68.



> First of all, you have to go back and cut in all the corners. 15 gallons is a LOT of corners.


You did not address the comment in post #69.

---------------

I asked this question in post # 77 


> When you say leaving the job you rolled, you mean CUT and rolled right?


You quoted my question in post #81 but still not not answer it.

I am willing to chalk it up to getting overwhelmed with people all asking you questions at the same time. It would be helpful if you could understand why people started to get frustrated that you weren't answering all of the questions.

--------

I believe you _have_ discovered lots of unique and innovative techniques and products.

I believe you DO have a lot of valuable contributions for this profession.

I am not sure if you are holding out on some of the details becuase you don't want to give away to much just yet, and you have plans publishing the entire strategy at a later date.

I don't really see anything wrong with that if that is your plan.

Which ever parts you do decide to share in public forums, I would be prepared to discuss them in their entirety. Most people will be confused if you are vague about the techniques. Whether it's because of being swamped by more questions than you can answer or not, people will be confused if you do not clarify what you mean.

I know I was personally frustrated because I felt I had spent a lot time engaging in the dialogue, only to find out way afterwards that we weren't even discussing the same thing.

I hope you can see why this would be frustrating to me and others in the forum.

-LC.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I think there is some confusion between "high end" work across the country. A double wide with indoor plumbing could be "high end" for a few here. The same people might only understand painting double wides and think that type of painting conveys to all aspects of painting. Lack of understanding each others markets is the basis for most of the argument here. 

Beating your own chest stating ridiculous production rates is not helping anyone. All that does is ruin your credibility. If you want to offer tips to help with production times then that would be great. Or if in all of your product testing you have found a certain product to work better when priming new construction then that would be great as well. The pen name of Jack Pauhl is a little irritating as well. He make silly claims on his posts, back pedals, changes the parameters and is hiding behind a fake name. 

I am all done with Jack Pauhl posts. I think he has a agenda and I do not think he is a positive influnce to this site. LC and Wolf have been stating the same things over and over and JP replies the same way, but with different words. It is not even a discussion, it is tedious. 

To each their own. Good luck and I hope all of you are profitable in your own techniques.


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## 1977corey (Feb 27, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> I think there is some confusion between "high end" work across the country. A double wide with indoor plumbing could be "high end" for a few here. The same people might only understand painting double wides and think that type of painting conveys to all aspects of painting. Lack of understanding each others markets is the basis for most of the argument here.
> 
> Beating your own chest stating ridiculous production rates is not helping anyone. All that does is ruin your credibility. If you want to offer tips to help with production times then that would be great. Or if in all of your product testing you have found a certain product to work better when priming new construction then that would be great as well. The pen name of Jack Pauhl is a little irritating as well. He make silly claims on his posts, back pedals, changes the parameters and is hiding behind a fake name.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## CLASSY COLORS (Mar 29, 2009)

Take The Bulldog [18 Inch] Over The Nine Anyday


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I still don't know why more people don't use the Wooster Big Ben System. I have used the sherlock but if those wing nuts choose to loosen up, you wind up with an 18" on the ground and it's a mess to clean. The beg ben is stronger and more stable.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I still don't know why more people don't use the Wooster Big Ben System.  Because it doesn't get close enough to the corners. I have used the sherlock but if those wing nuts choose to loosen up, you wind up with an 18" on the ground and it's a mess to clean.  Keep an eye on that! The beg ben is stronger and more stable. I agree.


Use it if it works for you! For new work I agree it is better. We should have lunch sometime and talk PT and NW MI.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I still don't know why more people don't use the Wooster Big Ben System. I have used the sherlock but if those wing nuts choose to loosen up, you wind up with an 18" on the ground and it's a mess to clean. The beg ben is stronger and more stable.


Just look at the thing:

http://www.castlewholesalers.com/WOOSTER-BR045-BIG-BEN-18-Roller-Frame.html

It's ridiculous the way they designed the clearance for the roller edge. As if it wasn't bad enough there is the width of a big round plastic cylinder in the way, they angled it inward to boot. That frame cant get safely into a corner closer than 2 inches.

The sherlock gets in close to almost 1/2 inch and I can think of a way they could get in even closer with the same design.

The problem with the sherlock is the ENTIRE head is angled, which puts the center of pressure off axis when you roll ceilings. Not to mention the fact that you have to keep flipping the roller 180 degrees to roll into opposite corners in the ceiling.

I am quite certain the people who design these products doesn't use them. ARE YOU LISTENING WOOSTER? Contact me, I'll revamp your entire product line. ( Your brushes and your roller covers are fine, I won't mess with them) 

Why on earth they decided the entire head needed to be angled for an 18 inch roller, when 9 inch rollers had allways worked just fine without an angled head is beyond me.

WOOSTER...Here is a hint: Make an 18 inch roller frame that gets into the corner like the Sherlock, but leave the angle alone, just let it be aligned with the handle like all rollers have been since the beginning of time.

If I want an angle, I will just change the axis of the roller pole. Not that this will make a lick of difference seeing as how the roller is ROUND. That angle is more in the way, than it is out of the way.

There is nothing advantageous, or magical, or space-age about having the roller kick off at an angle like that. 

You could design the sherlock to get even a little more clearance by re-positioning the round reenforcement portion of the roller arms to the _inside_ rather than the outside of the arm. This way there will be nothing between the roller and the wall except the narrowist flat portion of the arm that the spindle is attached to. You could get the clearance down to less then half an inch. While you are at it, make sure the fastening system locks. 

I conceptualized this 18 inch roller frame 20 years ago...*please make it soon.*


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

LC, could you please be more specific and maybe show some passion:jester:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Just look at the thing:
> 
> http://www.castlewholesalers.com/WOOSTER-BR045-BIG-BEN-18-Roller-Frame.html
> 
> ...


Just a guess, but I'd bet that the frames were designed for the most prevelent uses, commercial. They don't normally roll ceilings, so you would design it (or any tool) for it's most logical user.

As far as wing nuts coming loose for some guys, we learned to carry pliers long ago.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

They have a version of the sherlock one without wingnuts, but some kind of locking tab now.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

DeanV said:


> They have a version of the sherlock one without wingnuts, but some kind of locking tab now.


Yep! The new version is the Hulk.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Yep! The new version is the Hulk.


But it is _STILL_ *ANGLED!*

I'm getting ANGRY...you WOULDN'T LIKE ME WHEN I'M *ANGRY*......


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


>


Wow! you turned into a ninja turtle :thumbup:


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## jordanski (Feb 5, 2009)

*holy cow!*



ewingpainting.net said:


> NO NO its like this


dude, where did you find the emoticon for tea-bagging?

bad ass!
J


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## jordanski (Feb 5, 2009)

*Beef, it's what's for dinner...*

OOH WEE this thread is hysterical!

I would like to thank last craftsman, vermont painter, and NEPS for writing stuff that I have actually learned quite a bit from in this thread. I don't blast out big empty houses but I think I have a good idea how to do it now, should it ever come up...:notworthy:

And I love nothing more than a well thought out back-handed pimp slap...kudos

I don't see how this guy has a foot to stand on. 

In seattle we paint ceilings cuz we got moisture issues...

Dude, you're obviously shooting down real pros with ape chanting of how fast you paint half of an applicable surface... you got your backside thoroughly handed to you and you should just man up, apologize, and move on.

A debate that we can all pool knowledge from and advance our businesses with has been hijacked by 47 arrogant Iphone latherings.

I'm sure I won't get the last word on this, but you should think about this:

Dude, people who text while driving are ignorant, self-important DOOSHBAGS! you were on the freeway texting about your ridiculous claims & production rates rather than paying attention to your 4000 lb. sled? that's my family, friends, and loved ones out there on the road with you... put that yuppie play toy away and drive you insipid tool...:no:

the pic below should be the new masthead for this thread: here's to ya!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

LOL! :thumbup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> In high end custom new construction, to skip the ceilings in the priming stage is unheard of around here. The ceilings usually are not very white then and look dingy compared to ones that get hit with white. Add in how dirt and cobwebs stick more to raw mud for the future homeowners. Even in the cheapest tract homes I do, I shoot the ceilings. Even if they look solidly white.
> 
> I do not do it, since I do not spray finish coats on walls, but you would be surprised how well a lot of guys can work a paint spray shield along ceiling lines.
> 
> For me, a sprayed coat of primer that IS backrolled is the best way to help hide the texture on the face paper of drywall, help sets a constant texture to the wall to hide the texture difference between seams and the drywall. The painter I used to work for would have use roll the drywall primer on the walls and cut it later (with primer). Sure it rolls on fast if you are not rolling ceilings as well. But, after compared the two methods, the walls clearly looked better with a sprayed and backrolled coat of primer.


You dont have to sell me on painting ceilings.  Its money in my pocket I would love to have but if the builder says no, then its no. Unfortunately the drywall guys provide a very nice finished ceiling. 

They use ProForm drywall topping (Blue) its the whitest white mud there is to my knowledge, they look painted where USG blue looks dingy.

I'm familiar with the method you use on primer coat, its common and on many homes its the best option, like you said "sets a constant texture". Many walls need that but there are other options and product that can get nice results too.

Ultimately the homes look great finished but I am surprised how much some of them skimp on materials. I did a house last year with bare MDF cut (open end) for all trim. 1x10" wide. Looked awesome finished but it was MDF.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> That does help to clear up the dispute. I definitely was under the impression the entire time that you were talking about rolling AND cutting, AND painting ceilings.
> 
> This is the confusion that can happen when we don't clarify things.
> 
> ...


LC, Sorry about the confusion, the thread kind of took off fast. 

Here are the missing answers
#69 You wrote:
First of all, you have to go back and cut in all the corners. 15 gallons is a LOT of corners.

JP: Yes during second coat. The corners are brought down 3' to 4' while cutting the ceiling in. Then while on base the corners are ran up to complete. Then when I roll, the corners are rolled tight.

#77 You wrote: 
When you say leaving the job you rolled, you mean CUT and rolled right? You quoted my question in post #81 but still not not answer it. 

JP: No cut, just rolled like I mentioned in post #69 
"... im leaving the job I rolled". DeanV asked the same question on #89 and I replied on #107

You wrote: I am not sure if you are holding out on some of the details becuase you don't want to give away to much just yet, and you have plans publishing the entire strategy at a later date.

JP: I try not to talk about certain things that pertain to a system I use. I feel it's irrelevant as long as I provide the means for a reader to accomplish what I post and I hope I provide at least that. I'm just like a few others here and like to keep certain things out of discussion. 

Sometimes I may miss questions too like you mentioned. I will try to be more clear and specific in the future posts.

Thanks LC


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Not to get off topic, but this thread is about 18" rollers...at least I think it is. The local SW store have the wooster frame for about $43 and Lowes has the same for just under $20. In case you were interested....


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

.........been using the Wooster WideBoy for 18" rollers and the Wooster 4gal bucket for 9" rollers about 11 years now........my crew and I developed a disposable liner system that cuts clean up time down to one minute and without water.......the wooster buckets also come with an air tight lid that keeps the paint wet on the liner overnight.........we also like the buckets because of the design, the metal handle allows you to carry 25lbs of materials from the van to the jobsite.......they stack well also as I have a shelf in my van that holds three of each size................:thumbsup:


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

josey wales said:


> Went to go look at a job for a client i do some work for. he has a 3 car garage fresh boarded and taped. He wants it primed and 2 coats. Usually i would spray a large garage like this one, but owner does not want any spraying. So i figure i will roll it off with an "18 roller. I have never used one of these for walls and ceilings before,(only on expoxy floors). So i an heading out to get me one of those Wooster 5gal green roller buckets and a roller cage. Looking at woosters sherlock 18" cage, this is going to sound stupid but how does the sleeve fit on to this cage from the pic all i see is a couple of pins, one each arm. somone fill me in LOL is there another piece to this cage? Sorry i admit it sounds stupid. The other style of cages are just like a normal cages but doubled up, i would like to stick with the wooster sherlock system.
> 
> Thanks


FOR EXTERIORS, IF YOU HAVE TO ROLL AND IT'S NOT A SUPER ROUGH SURFACE, and can't convince him to spray and back brush, WOOSTER's roller frames ( the green lock in kind) are the best on the market. Don't go with anything else.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

hammerheart14 said:


> IF YOU HAVE TO ROLL, and can't convince him to spray and back brush, back roll, WOOSTER's roller frames ( the green lock in kind) are the best on the market. Don't go with anything else.


Depends on what you are rolling. I have one that works good for walls but for backrolling ceilings I prefer the Wooster Big Ben because it does not have a tilted head like the adjustable green wooster frame does, and so I just use the Big Ben for walls too.


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> IF YOU HAVE TO ROLL, and can't convince him to spray and back brush, back roll, WOOSTER's roller frames ( the green lock in kind) are the best on the market. Don't go with anything else.


You recommend back-brushing gypboard?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

fo sho


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

this is a epic thread btw.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> this is a epic thread btw.


Only because of your contributions.


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## LOSTinDETAILS (Jun 17, 2009)

Wheres WALDO?


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

We use to use 18 inch roller covers, but they hard to get into corners with. The best roller cover you can go with is a 14 inch roller cover. It offers the best of both worlds where you get a lot of coverage, and you can get very tight into the corners. If you go with a 14 inch roller, especially for block or drywall jobs, you will never go back to the 18 or 9 inch roller again.


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## dubinpainting (Feb 16, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


>


This is the set up I use as well very effective. Don't get cheap roller cover's from the depot they will snap in half under the weight of the paint. Make sure the inside of the roller is made of hard plastic and not carboard. I would use a thicker nap as well!


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

On the question of why the drywallers end up priming I think it would be due to their numerous experiences of low ball painters coming in and spraying w/o back rolling the prime coat. All the joints telegraph out.

The painter blames the rocker and vice versa. So the drywallers just started doing it to prevent the complaints.


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## ClaytonPainting (Jan 28, 2011)

*Wooster Wide Boy 18" bucket with wheels*

I know this is an old thread and i am new to this board but i have been using the wide boy bucket for years and if you turn it over and look on the bottom there are holes made to insert wheels. Insert wheels with the proper stud size and just kick it along like a mop bucket as you are rolling. I never have to bend over and move my bucket or scoot it with friction on the floor. Weld 2 9 screens together and lay on the opposite side of the useless plastic rolloff area and you are set.


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

Clayton.........since you want to get the most out of your Wide Boy bucket check out my website..........


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