# Cleaning equipment without putting water in yards?



## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

I am transitioning into doing "green" painting. One problem that I am having trouble finding a simple solution to is "eco-friendly" ways to clean equipment. For my repaint jobs, I hate when my crews clean their equipment in customer's yards. I tell the customers that I am environmentally friendly, but then they see my guys letting all that paint water go into the grass/sewer. The easiest thing I have thought of is to have the crews get an empty bucket with water, put the tools into it and clean at their house. However, this is ultimately not solving the problem. 

Does anyone have any solutions to this?

Thanks


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

I wont clean up brushes, etc on the job (residential). I am small enough to have a trailer where I can contain everything. As far as waste water - the most environmentally way I know is to collect it in a fiver and put it down the toilet. At least that way it is processed through the city's waste water treatment center. If it goes into the ground it is part of the eco system. Solvents are collected and saved and reused after settling.


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## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

Good idea Tony,

I didnt think about letting the city clean the water for us.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I got to ask. (no sarcasm intended in spite of what others believe) 

If you are using environmentally safe products, what are you worried about the wash water for? Is it not eco-friendly? (or at least eco-neutral)


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

I clean out the sprayer into waste water 5ers and let them evaporate fora while. then I take them to the recycling station. But I figure any paint that does go into the grass dry up on the surface and just breaks down and is already diluted with water. Soil is a great filtration system.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Yea we clean everything off site for residential repaints... I have heard horror stories from client about previous painters and there cleaning habits at their houses.


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## frankcanpaint (Apr 22, 2007)

*cleaning*

I don't clean my equipt. at my clients cause I don't want my clients to question my professionalism which is usually the begining of questioning the amount of money being charged.
I:no: never wash my roller sleeves, I will reuse for about 3 days when using the same colour and then let it dryout overnite and then chuck it. Similar with tray liners- i brush out all the paint - let them dry out and re-use a couple of times and just before they start to flake i chuck um. My brushes sit over a fiver with a piece of clothes hanger through the handles- different colour on the job means using another brush. I dump my 5 ers in my back yard in my "untamed corner" and then clean it all out with the hose and when its relatively clean I finish up in my brushes in the laundry sink. I haven't found a better way to go about clean-up.
Is it true that treatment plants recycle water for bottling? Thats why I don't dump it in the toilet


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dmax Consulting said:


> I am transitioning into doing "green" painting.


Thats awesome! 

There are several third party organizations trying to define it these days, so it can be a bit confusing. You might want to check out Greenguard, GreenSeal, Degree of Green and LEED for ideas.

You must have a clear sense of what "green" means to you since you are transitioning your business model to the "green" side. 

If you dont mind me asking:

What type of painting did you do prior to going to "green"?

What motivated your change?

How would you define "green" painting?

Anything you could share would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

As Scott suggests, research is the key.

I'm no coatings engineer or chemist, but I wonder how truly "green" any architectural coating can be. My logical side says there must be some kind of preservatives and biocides in almost any coating - unless technology has advanced far beyond my scope of understanding.

And then there are the colorants and vehicles. 

I've seen folks wash their waterbornes out in the driveway and even kitchen sink saying that because they are not solvent based, this is OK. 

I wonder.

Call your city/town and see if adding these chemicals to the town's waste water treatment system is "environmentally safe". Call your local waste disposal companies and find out their recommendations. Look at the MSDS of your coatings and discover what is in them.

Personally, if I can't drink it, then I would be careful how I dispose of it.

This is a new area and a lot of claims are being made. A lot of painters are advertising being green without doing the necessary research to find out all the facts.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

daArch said:


> This is a new area and a lot of claims are being made. A lot of painters are advertising being green without doing the necessary research to find out all the facts.


Seems like there are a lot of "everything'ers" promoting them selves as green, its starting to drive me nuts. Green grocery stores (no, everyone carries locally sourced and organic foods), Green realtors (how so?) Green Law offices (again, what?). Unless they all drive plug in electric cars and use George Z style of paperless communication I don't buy into it.


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

I would say that about 90% of the time I clean my brushes on site and don,t really see a problem with it. I have about 2 gallons of water in one bucket that we use as a first rinse, and an equal amount in another for a second rinse. Now mind you this is all outside on a drop cloth (I could see how it would be problematic inside) we wash our brushes, put a lid on the bucket, and throw it in the van. I think if anything it just completes the storyline in the HO's eyes. They see you show up, set up, do a nice neat job, clean your brushes and pull out of the driveway with them admiring the way you care for their home, and your tools.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

frankcanpaint said:


> Is it true that treatment plants recycle water for bottling? Thats why I don't dump it in the toilet


If it will clean this then I'm not worried about a little bit of paint.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174995,00.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080128120727.htm


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## frankcanpaint (Apr 22, 2007)

*Paint water down the toilet ?*

Quote: Originally Posted Tonyg...Thats why I don't dump it in the toilet
If it will clean this then I'm not worried about a little bit of paint.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174995,00.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0128120727.htm

Holy sh*t! We will be drinking our paint water at this rate.
"San Diego has cited Orange County's successful "sewer to showers" program in arguing for its proposal to begin treating sewage for drinking.."."...Earlier in January, for instance, California approved operation of the Advanced Water Purification Facility (AWPF), the largest water reclamation plant in the nation. It will yield 70 million gallons per day of drinkable water from sewage."


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## AuntieJan (Feb 6, 2008)

Hope you don't mind if the ole Florida gal chimes in here... I agree with not cleaning your equipment at the customer's house, it's more professional to tidy everything up at the end of a job and clean the equipment at home or the shop if you have one. 

To clean, I use a spray nozzle and a 5gal bucket, that way the water doen't just run and run while you clean. The soil/grass itself is a pretty good surface to disperse any pollutants so I don't sweat that a lot. I do wet down my whole cleaning area around me before I begin cleaning, it keeps the paint from showing as much.

I have taken to storing my roller covers in a plastic bag and putting them in my fridge while I'm in the same color, paint stays soft and then I spray them out well at the very end of the job. Sounds weird I know but it works!

As for "green", I think that term is becoming way overused but I also try my best to be as eco-friendly as I can, in other words I try to keep my crap out of the landfill and recycle as much as I possibly can.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Dmax Consulting said:


> Does anyone have any solutions to this?


A shop with a slop sink
Seriously, unless the H/O absolutely insisted that I should, I'd never clean brushes in their yard...or their sink












....while they were home


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

> The soil/grass itself is a pretty good surface to disperse any pollutants so I don't sweat that a lot.


This from our website:
_"It is environmentally irresponsible (illegal too) to pour paint and paint contaminated water into the sewer and storm water drainage system. Washing of painting tools outdoors or rinsing them with the hose is even worse, as the contaminated water will enter the natural waterways and eventually pollute our beautiful lakes and rivers."_

_"_ _When water based paint waste enters the waterways_
_Paints contain solid pigments that can increase the turbidity of water. In addition to making the water "muddy" and unsightly, they can cause particles to clog the gills of fish, and restrict their ability to breathe. Increased turbidity can also block out sunlight and reduce photosynthesis in plants. Paints also contain several biodegradable substances. As they break down, they can reduce the oxygen level in the water making it difficult for fish and other organisms to survive. _
_When solvent based paint enters the waterways_
_Solvent based paint waste contains many organic solvents and compounds. These substances don't mix well with water. When they eventualy break down they deprive organisms of the oxygen they need to survive. Solvent paints can contain lead, mercury, zinc and chromium. These heavy metals can contaminate the sediment and poison the food chain. In addition, toxic ingredients in solvent based paints can cause tumors to be formed in fish and other water organisms. "_

http://ecopainting.ca/dispose.art.html


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> But I figure any paint that does go into the grass dry up on the surface and just breaks down and is already diluted with water. Soil is a great filtration system.


You figure wrong. That is the least responsible way to dispose of it.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

George Z said:


> You figure wrong. That is the least responsible way to dispose of it.


why not suggest a more responsible way


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> why not suggest a more responsible way


I have Dave, just read the post before that.

Most of the time, plain common sense is best.
Down the sink is better than directly in the waterways (at the very least).
It is even illegal in most states anyway.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have read that down the sink is not so great either. If you have a septic system, latex paint kills the bacteria in the septic tank that are supposed to be breakdown solids.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Is this too much?
A contractor close to here I know, does that.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Lets face it, no matter what we do it is not going to be very green. Down the drain, in the yard, just try to keep as much paint in paint containers to be used in the future or disposed of properly as solid waste. Use extra caution if you are near a stream or lake and favor using a sink for sure in that case. Of course, we will find out in the future that some unimaginable horror is being wrought on the environment from the paint in landfills breaking down and leaching through the land fill liners somehow.

One thing I find very odd about the green finishing (not you George, just products in genral) is the push for green wall paints in homes while on a new construction job I have had going this summer, we used 45 gallons of pre-cat lacquer and 20 gals of spray stain. Seems like if paint companies were really concerned with being green, the benefits would be from getting lacquer out, not tweaking latex formulas. Oh what I would give for a waterborne finishing system that would not raise grain on wood.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Lets face it, no matter what we do it is not going to be very green. Down the drain, in the yard, just try to keep as much paint in paint containers to be used in the future or disposed of properly as solid waste. Use extra caution if you are near a stream or lake and favor using a sink for sure in that case. Of course, we will find out in the future that some unimaginable horror is being wrought on the environment from the paint in landfills breaking down and leaching through the land fill liners somehow.
> 
> One thing I find very odd about the green finishing (not you George, just products in genral) is the push for green wall paints in homes while on a new construction job I have had going this summer, we used 45 gallons of pre-cat lacquer and 20 gals of spray stain. Seems like if paint companies were really concerned with being green, the benefits would be from getting lacquer out, not tweaking latex formulas. Oh what I would give for a waterborne finishing system that would not raise grain on wood.


 
Dean

I have been researching this concept heavily lately. Product developments are geared to market share. Research and Development dollars go into the largest product markets. I think its important for the manufacturers to hear the message that we would appreciate better performing low voc products in other types of finishes we use besides latex.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Lets face it, no matter what we do it is not going to be very green. Down the drain, in the yard, just try to keep as much paint in paint containers to be used in the future or disposed of properly as solid waste. Use extra caution if you are near a stream or lake and favor using a sink for sure in that case. Of course, we will find out in the future that some unimaginable horror is being wrought on the environment from the paint in landfills breaking down and leaching through the land fill liners somehow.
> 
> One thing I find very odd about the green finishing (not you George, just products in genral) is the push for green wall paints in homes while on a new construction job I have had going this summer, we used 45 gallons of pre-cat lacquer and 20 gals of spray stain. Seems like if paint companies were really concerned with being green, the benefits would be from getting lacquer out, not tweaking latex formulas. Oh what I would give for a waterborne finishing system that would not raise grain on wood.


You are right in a way, the greenest paint job is... no paint job.
That can't be good for business though.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

George Z said:


> Is this too much?
> A contractor close to here I know, does that.


From George's link:

To you, the customer, costs are less than zero. How? Simple; I get paid for the work I provide at your property, and* all washing of brushes, rollers etc. is done off sight, and off the clock, so there is a net savings in time and a reduction rather than increase in costs to you.* 

His procedure in no way saves time. It has high expenses (running dehumidifiers and air exchangers) not to mention the time "off the clock" that must be accounted for. If he has employees or is a large company, the time for his system would have to be accounted for with a larger hourly rate. If he is a single operator, he still should be compensated.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

DeanV said:


> From George's link:
> 
> To you, the customer, costs are less than zero. How? Simple; I get paid for the work I provide at your property, and* all washing of brushes, rollers etc. is done off sight, and off the clock, so there is a net savings in time and a reduction rather than increase in costs to you.*
> 
> His procedure in no way saves time. It has high expenses (running dehumidifiers and air exchangers) not to mention the time "off the clock" that must be accounted for. If he has employees or is a large company, the time for his system would have to be accounted for with a larger hourly rate. If he is a single operator, he still should be compensated.


I agree. 
His customer only saves money in his Time and Material situation.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George Z said:


> You are right in a way, the greenest paint job is... no paint job.
> That can't be good for business though.


 
Actually, I have not found that to be the case. My brother bought from a builder who was selling the "no maintenance" home. Exteriors were unfinished white cedar (yes, wood aficionados, I said white). After 2 years every house is all gray and black water stained. The amount of pressure washing water, chemicals and then stain to make such houses look right far exceeds the environmental impact of a proper initial paint job that is propertly maintained within 2 years. It is that sort of selling that makes people bitter and questioning of the "green" contractor. No paint job is not an option, unless the house is vinyl sided.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Actually, I have not found that to be the case. My brother bought from a builder who was selling the "no maintenance" home. Exteriors were unfinished white cedar (yes, wood aficionados, I said white). After 2 years every house is all gray and black water stained. The amount of pressure washing water, chemicals and then stain to make such houses look right far exceeds the environmental impact of a proper initial paint job that is propertly maintained within 2 years. It is that sort of selling that makes people bitter and questioning of the "green" contractor. No paint job is not an option, unless the house is vinyl sided.


Not sure.

What is more Eco-friendly?
Satin Impervo lasting 10 years or 
Ecospec semi every 2 years.

Five times as much waste,
as much plastic
as much gasoline
wear and tear of vehicles, 
equipment,
5 times as much transportation of paints,
cleaning of tools etc... etc... 
You get the idea.
Is it the VOC or all the above.
A great low VOC product that will perform as welll as the Satin Impervo would be obviously best.
Aura may address some of that


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Actually, I have not found that to be the case. My brother bought from a builder who was selling the "no maintenance" home. Exteriors were unfinished white cedar (yes, wood aficionados, I said white). After 2 years every house is all gray and black water stained. The amount of pressure washing water, chemicals and then stain to make such houses look right far exceeds the environmental impact of a proper initial paint job that is propertly maintained within 2 years. It is that sort of selling that makes people bitter and questioning of the "green" contractor. No paint job is not an option, unless the house is vinyl sided.


Most of the cedar we are getting for trim boards around here is white cedar...


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Dean
> 
> I have been researching this concept heavily lately. Product developments are geared to market share. Research and Development dollars go into the largest product markets. I think its important for the manufacturers to hear the message that we would appreciate better performing low voc products in other types of finishes we use besides latex.


 
I'm on it! Rust-Oleum should be your alkyd house of choice! We are also into all technologies and are doing our best to go lower and lower VOC across all of our products. I developed a base formula for something I'm sure you'll be interested in. When we get there, I'll enhance your collection!

Carter

p.s. What's the Gold finish for?


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

George Z said:


> Not sure.
> 
> What is more Eco-friendly?
> Satin Impervo lasting 10 years or
> ...


 
This is a great point and something we've been trying to quantify in the industry. Is having something with zinc chromate in it really that bad? We used to make paint with zinc chromate, lead and all other great stuff in it, but it's immediate toxicological effects are much greater than the paints we produce now. I was just at the Springhouse facility at Rohm and Haas this week and they had a panel on their test fence out there that has been out since the 1950s and it still looked great. It was a zinc chromate type of thing over an asbestos shingle. We can say all we want about environmentalism, but you are talking 4-5 paint jobs minimum to equal the performance of that one paint which is so "environmentally irresponsible". 

That said, I believe that these chemical compounds are NOT good, but I think it is hard to quantify the immediate damage of some of these things vs. the long range durability and environmental impact of the product. 

Carter

p.s. If you guys want a full report on Rohm and Haas, I will tell you what I can. They were very impressive, so just let me know if you want a full write up of my experience.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I hate the word:yes:

Please, no offence


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

George,

Thanks for the tip of the hat, no billing for washup saves my clients money hands down. (I expect I will offer a brush and roller rental service, and flat rate wash-up costs, to re-coup the time and money.

Have to run, all the best, 

Jeremiah Seip,
Guelph, Ontario, Ca.

p.s. check out the old thread titled "paint wastewater", I'll keep updating it, but I'm going to abandon the spin offs, no pun intended.


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

*To Dean in Michigan and Frank out west:*

I didn't have a chance to read the whole post, and now that I have I realized I missed a couple important points.

Dean, you're right on the money with laquer, urethanes, fast dry stains etc.
(I like oil stain, or alcohol if in a rush, then fast dry oil sanding sealer to keep the wet oil depth, then top coat with 1 or two coats varathane waterborne satin, sometimes adding a little colour to the topcoats adds depth and gives a richer look...a one day system if you play your cards right....)

Frank, don't go to "Georges link" I have no idea what he has up there, go to my site. By the looks of it, George is currently willing to mis-characterize what I do because I compete on service, quality and value, and he's, so far, just niche marketing. (No offence George, I tryed the same thing about 5 years back...I wasn't (yet) ready to compete and market, on even ground), and we both run our businesses in a highly competitive market, perhaps to close for (easy) comfort.

p.s. I like George, when I first hit on his site and found out that Eco-painting was right next door I was shocked (and delighted), now I no there are perhaps 1000+ "eco-painters" across N. America, and I don't mean to sound arrogant but if we had to guess, I don't think we would consider them to be the fastest, leanest, most diciplined service providers in their region...

Scott, You are doing a good job on here, you are just on here way to often to actually be running a busy service company on the side...(On the Berkshire payroll? or painttalk payroll?) Forgive me if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, but at least I tell you what I think.

All the best,
Good luck with the elections,
And now I'm going to quite this site (again),

Seip.


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## SeipJere (May 25, 2008)

*After thought,*

Frank, my home away form home is the Bow valley, (Canmore). I don't know a whole lot of folks there anymore, but certainly a few, I don't keep in touch, but it feels like just as much of a home to me as anywhere else.

Where do you work out of?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

SeipJere said:


> Scott, You are doing a good job on here, you are just on here way to often to actually be running a busy service company on the side...(On the Berkshire payroll? or painttalk payroll?) Forgive me if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, but at least I tell you what I think.
> Seip.


Thats funny. Come on down and shadow me for a week.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I was still cracking up about this today, as I was running a rather large project...also thinking of George Z and his house of eco cards. :lol:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Lets all just stop painting until we come up with a solid alternative to degrading the environment. I suggest all our energies be directed toward solving this problem. I am not going to sleep tonight until I get agreement here that all of us will work toward an enviromentally neutral manner in which to dispose of of our toxic chemicals. The next call I get will be answered this way:

Thanks for calling me to set up a free estimate. Unfortunately, I can no longer degrade the enviroment by putting used chemical into our eco system. When I solve this waste problem, I will set up a free estimate which, in part, will have a surcharge based on the added cost of being environmentally considerate.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it.

JTP


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

and the surcharge for all the down time spent trying to figure it out


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

SeipJere said:


> Frank, don't go to "Georges link" I have no idea what he has up there, go to my site. By the looks of it, George is currently willing to mis-characterize what I do....


"George's link" *is* a link to your site. It is not possible to mis-characterize what you do by doing that.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

SeipJere said:


> I didn't have a chance to read the whole post, and now that I have I realized I missed a couple important points.
> 
> Dean, you're right on the money with laquer, urethanes, fast dry stains etc.
> (I like oil stain, or alcohol if in a rush, then fast dry oil sanding sealer to keep the wet oil depth, then top coat with 1 or two coats varathane waterborne satin, sometimes adding a little colour to the topcoats adds depth and gives a richer look...a one day system if you play your cards right....)
> ...


Nobody is on the painttalk payroll. It is a volunteer position.
And I am sure Scott is not Warren Buffett's bitch.



> George is currently willing to mis-characterize what I do because I compete on service, quality and value, and he's, so far, just niche marketing. (No offence George, I tryed the same thing about 5 years back...I wasn't (yet) ready to compete and market, on even ground), and we both run our businesses in a highly competitive market, perhaps to close for (easy) comfort.


I don't paint in your area, so we don't compete.
In fact, we don't compete with anyone here, we like it like that.

There are a whole bunch of people that will offer "service quality and value" or "quality work at a reasonable price"
I don't expect paint contractors to say they do "bad work very expensive"
and unless anybody cares, it is just self proclaimed greatness.
At the end. it doesn't matter, we like what we do, we do ok. I am sure you do likewise.


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