# Yet another clear coat thread.



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

I've scoured the forum for clear coat info but my project seems just a little different.

I have a bathroom, mostly tongue and groove pine, where the poly and wood have been beaten by UV. The house is passive solar and the bathroom has a huge window which provides heat to the house. The woodwork doesn't need to be perfect but I prefer the finish last as long as possible.

So far I've washed down the walls with TSP and bleach and then used a little wood brightener. Then I hand-sanded most and palm-sanded some.

As far as a top coat, would Marine Varnish be overkill or just the right product. 

Many on this forum state that Helmsman doesn't hold up well outside in full sun. But would this actually be a reasonable situation to use the product or something similar - Lots of UV lots of moisture in this interior bathroom!

Any specific product recommendations? I don't want to strip what's left of the poly. Also, I don't spray. Strictly a brush and roll guy.


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## Hemlock (May 29, 2013)

The poly protected wood will eventually fade out from the sun. I try to avoid using poly if the wood is being subjected to uv rays. I would recommend using a high quality penetration oil that you re apply every year or two, or as soon as you notice the wood drying out, changing colors. Not sure what products are available to you but one I use a lot of is called penofin oil.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Sikkens door and window clear seems to be the best for holding up to UV's. Much better than spar in my experience.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Modern Masters Single Component Aliphatic Acrylic Urethane Waterborne.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

What NACE said. The other products mentioned are for exterior use. I would not use them inside, especially is a hot, moist environment. Modern Masters makes great stuff.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Thanks all for the input so far. I will do a little more research on the 3 products mentioned.

I have seen the Penofin around but never had the opportunity to use it. 

I've used a bunch of the Silkens SRD in the past and also the DEK. I like both products for decks so the Door and Window sounds interesting. 

Now the Modern Masters Aliphatic Acrylic Urethan sounds spiffy. Never really heard of it and wonder if it is available in Connecticut. Seems to go over anything including a little stain for color. Would be nice to use a product that won't leave me silly by the end of the day but the spec sheet mentions a respirator.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

We have in in CT.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NACE said:


> Modern Masters Single Component Aliphatic Acrylic Urethane Waterborne.


Are you talking MasterClear, the new MasterClear supreme or another?

The original masterclear seems to be the best WB finish we have tested for exterior door type finishes so far. Pricy, but a gallon will brush out a lot of doors.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Yes. MasterClear Supreme.


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

since it is the walls, and the moisture you refer to is the shower steam and such. I am assuming no sitting water. I would use Shellac.Contrary to popular belief Shellac actually holds up really well in humid areas as long as there is no sitting water on it. And it's not effected by UV like Poly is. To go over Poly you would need to use Dewaxed shellac. It's also very easy to touch up or re-do.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Lazerline said:


> since it is the walls, and the moisture you refer to is the shower steam and such. I am assuming no sitting water. I would use Shellac.Contrary to popular belief Shellac actually holds up really well in humid areas as long as there is no sitting water on it. And it's not effected by UV like Poly is. To go over Poly you would need to use Dewaxed shellac. It's also very easy to touch up or re-do.



That is very interesting. I love the color of shellac and have worked with it a little. Maybe a couple coats of shellac and then a topcoat of wb poly?


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Seems to me with the poly you just lost the advantages of the shellac.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

The Modern Masters is an Aliphatic. Not a poly. Very UV stable. Much more so then a poly


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

So what I'm hearing is that with shellac I won't have to worry about full sun pounding the shellacked wall all winter long. There are no UV inhibitors in the glass, the glass is designed to maximize allowing the sunlight into the house to provide heat.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Lakesidex said:


> So what I'm hearing is that with shellac I won't have to worry about full sun pounding the shellacked wall all winter long. There are no UV inhibitors in the glass, the glass is designed to maximize allowing the sunlight into the house to provide heat.


no, but Shellac will eventually crack and split because its brittle. Aliphatics are flexible and have much better UV. Similar to a clear coat on a car


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Have you tested MasterClear Supreme outside yet? I have only seen the previous version on shelves here, so I have not tried the new version. Any real differences between the two?


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

Those wood will expand and contrast like hell.
Plus Uv light from the window.
Oil based varnish is out

You would use marine varnish

Either Epifanes or Captain varnish will work.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=5725&SHOPZILLA&CA_6C15C=458318809

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...o?pid=100&familyName=Z+Spar+Captain's+Varnish


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## aroplate (Aug 21, 2013)

*Clear coat*

I haven't heard anyone mention conversion varnish, I know it has to be sprayed but it is a catalyst and extremely durable to moisture, not sure about the UV components but if you want a durable clear finish that would be my choice, avoid spar varnish like the plague.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Lakesidex said:


> So what I'm hearing is that with shellac I won't have to worry about full sun pounding the shellacked wall all winter long. There are no UV inhibitors in the glass, the glass is designed to maximize allowing the sunlight into the house to provide heat.


As usual, I'll be the contrarian here and suggest tackling the problem at the source: the window. I'd look at UV filtering window film. That will have minimal impact on solar heat gain, since that occurs from light in the IR portion of the spectrum.


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

The thing with Sellac is its so easy to re-do once old age gets the better of it. Each layer just melds into the old. The Alcohol reactivates it. really no sanding needed on future application if not necessary for a finish. where as any other finish will require much for prep for future applications. I Havent seen any dewaxed Amber or Garnet premixed shellac so since you are covering old poly I would go with a couple coats of the clear sealer dewaxed then follow up withe the amber or garnet if those are the tones your looking for.
as for Master Clear I don't have any experience with it. May work great but I doubt future applications will require so little prep to apply.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Lazerline said:


> The thing with Sellac is its so easy to re-do once old age gets the better of it. Each layer just melds into the old. The Alcohol reactivates it. really no sanding needed on future application if not necessary for a finish. where as any other finish will require much for prep for future applications. I Havent seen any dewaxed Amber or Garnet premixed shellac so since you are covering old poly I would go with a couple coats of the clear sealer dewaxed then follow up withe the amber or garnet if those are the tones your looking for.
> as for Master Clear I don't have any experience with it. May work great but I doubt future applications will require so little prep to apply.


Not to bash, but I wouldn't go over anything with an Amber or Garnet pre-mix with wax in it. Almost all premixed other than the Zinnser 100% dewaxed is wax-free. You limit yourself in the future to fix things because of the wax etc. You can get those flakes in shellac and make your own mixture, it isn't hard and would be ready within a couple of hours or even over night, no big deal + wax free.

To the original poster: 

I would recommend something like a marine varnish (epifanes) or general finishes 450 exterior. I wouldn't really hesitate to use the Helsman (waterborne version), just keep in mind it will probably require more regular re-coating. 

For the epifanes, since you say you don't spray, I'd recommend diluting it and then you can roll it on and back brush to lay it out faster. Of course spray=win especially for clear coats, but you gotta do what you gotta do to get it done.


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

woodcoyote said:


> Not to bash, but I wouldn't go over anything with an Amber or Garnet pre-mix with wax in it. Almost all premixed other than the Zinnser 100% dewaxed is wax-free. You limit yourself in the future to fix things because of the wax etc. You can get those flakes in shellac and make your own mixture, it isn't hard and would be ready within a couple of hours or even over night, no big deal + wax free.
> 
> No worries, but I haven't had a surface yet a couple more coats of dewaxed couldn't negate. Even over top waxed. As far as making it yourself wax is a natural element of the shellac beetles secretion rather than an additive, so you would have to filter it a couple times through pantyhose or coffee filters . Alot of the wax will settle over night after mix. But if wax free is imperative it will still need filtering. It's a pain in the arse so lately I just go with the pre mixed.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

> No worries, but I haven't had a surface yet a couple more coats of dewaxed couldn't negate. Even over top waxed. As far as making it yourself wax is a natural element of the shellac beetles secretion rather than an additive, so you would have to filter it a couple times through pantyhose or coffee filters . Alot of the wax will settle over night after mix. But if wax free is imperative it will still need filtering. It's a pain in the arse so lately I just go with the pre mixed.


They make pre-mixed that doesn't have any wax in it. Zinnser Seal Coat, Universal Sanding Sealer. The amber has wax in it. 

I've only had 1 experience putting something on top of a waxed shellac (a poly over it) and it failed/fish-eyed, because of compatibility issues. It was a test of mine, I experiment a lot, so I know never to use that setup on a real job. 

What I meant to say is: They sell wax-free shellac flakes that are 'amber', the actual color name is orange. Anyway, they sell them and all you have to do is go buy some denatured alcohol from lowes or wherever and make your own solution. No straining or removing wax necessary. Still gives the same color as the pre-mixed 'amber' that Zinnser sells (but wax free).

It's easy to make, just dump the flakes in a measured amount of alcohol, stir it a couple of times, let it sit, stir it again. Then let it sit over night. That's it. Then it's ready to use...wax free.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Thank you everyone for all the valuable input. 

And in the spirit of full disclosure, this is my bathroom.

If I had my way I think I would spring for the Epifanes or other marine varnish and treat those bathroom walls like a boat. I never owned a wooden boat, but as a true painter I really would enjoy using a high quality marine varnish and watch the UV and moisture play its games.

But as an older painter who slung to much Satin Impervo. I have to say, my body no longer likes to play nice with all those solvents. 

Also 80% of my house is oil-base polyurethane. So what I'm trying to achieve is a way to properly maintain the woodwork without losing the last of my sensibilities.

I'm very interested in trying to transition as much of the woodwork as I can to shellac. I've read a lot of info claiming that shellac is pretty non-toxic. So is this really the case?

I really must consider using a product that that won't wreck me over time.

The Modern Masters Single Component Aliphatic Acrylic Urethane Waterborne sounds like an awesome product. But those Aliphatic's concern me. Not sure if they will beat me up as much as the oil-base varnishes or what kind of health threats they pose. Like I said my liver-light is on.

I've heard good things about the Diamond Varathane WB and that's available locally, but again I'm not sure if that's any less toxic than the Modern Masters.

So to summarize, I would like to know what would be considered some of the safest clear-coat products to use over oil-poly'ed woodwork. I hope to be maintaining this wood for a long time and don't want to end up being dumber than the wood.

I understand that a bathroom is different and I may have to bite the bullet and use whatever it takes. But I believe there will be better options for the rest of the house.

Thanks again everyone and sorry for the long post!


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I would consider Zar's Ultra Max waterborne Alkyd. Great stuff to work with, low odor, I suspect with the usual scuff will bond just fine.


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

BrushJockey said:


> I would consider Zar's Ultra Max waterborne Alkyd. Great stuff to work with, low odor, I suspect with the usual scuff will bond just fine.


Ditto, I love Ultra Max. It's like Adavnce or Nextech in technology. Water based when wet for application, finish is an oil when dry/cured. Best of both worlds and easy on the olfactory.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Yup. Ultramax is my go to clear.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

Of all the choices offered here, the aliphatic is the best choice, however, it is only as good as the person who will be caring for the wood after the work is done.

The finish isn't going to encapsulate the wood, therefore, moisture will get behind the finish at some point and cause problems (like you are seeing in the picture) it's only a matter of time. The homeowner needs to exercise diligence by using the vent fan before, during and after using the shower to reduce the humidity in the room.

Good luck.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Looks like a lot of Zar Ultra Max fans out there. I like the fact that it is a Waterborne Oil Modified Polyurethane that resembles Advance. Will definitely give it a try somewhere.

But what about UV. Has anyone had any luck with any of the WB exterior varnishes like the Varathane Outdoor Crystal Clear Spar Urethane. Or something like General Finishes Exterior 450. Would these products do a good job and be relatively safe inside?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

This is interior, right? UV souldn't be as much a problem.
UV (spars and ext clears) are not as hard or as clear as interior finishes, need to move with expansion and contraction.
Decide what is more important.
BTW- Zar make a great exterior wb clear- but it will be softer.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

BrushJockkey, 

even though it's an interior there are huge amount of UV present. It's a passive solar house, with the South side having old 4' x 6' double panes of tempered glass trimmed into the house that offer no UV filtering.

So ideally I would like to find a clear coat system that I can use going forward that offers good protection and won't kill me with solvents.

Right now I'm leaning towards a coat of shellac over the old beat poly. I'm hoping that the shellac will add some color to the sun-beat wood and act as a sealer/adhesion layer. Then maybe top with some type of exterior WB finish that has good UV protection and is also enviromentaly friendly on me.

Pretty much just trying to get the warm amber look of a solvent based finish over old tongue and groove pine without the solvents. And UV protection is important.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Shellac ( amber) will add plenty of color. It is not compatible with polys as mentioned earlier, unless you use dewaxed, and usually dewaxed is not amber. 
Shellac is also not resistant to water or any other kinds of surface problems, and can be brittle.

I love shellac- but it has issues and can be hard to work with.

I'd consider this, adding a little color ( I like to use transtints) . 
I've resuscitated a few bad exterior side wood doors with this. 

Zar 32712 Exterior Water Based Polyurethane, Satin - Amazon.com


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> Shellac ( amber) will add plenty of color. It is not compatible with polys as mentioned earlier, unless you use dewaxed, and usually dewaxed is not amber.
> Shellac is also not resistant to water or any other kinds of surface problems, and can be brittle.
> 
> I love shellac- but it has issues and can be hard to work with.
> ...



Thanks BrushJockey, this is some of the practical advise I've been looking for. 

Do you think the Transtints, being interior only,will handle the UV? Or am I over thinking this.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

The transtints will just be for color, and you'll be adding a few drops to a short squirt ( experiment for depth of color- If I need a lot I usually do multiple coats rather than lots of tint in one- easier to get even), The Zar will give you the UV protection. 
Because it still is interior, I would bet the glass itself has some UV filtering if it has been installed in the last 20 years.


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## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

That glass was installed when the house was built in 1978


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

That's about all I have buddy- you're on your own!! lol


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

Transtint is like a water color painting

You put it on wood it will soak into it, but there is no protection. any water or light will fade, remove it

As for water based clear coat all waterbourne clear coating like minwax helsman.........Oil-Modified Polyurethane, Zar Ultra Max, Modern Masters............ they will fail in bathroom setting, they are even worse in exterior

I have been there before


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I was suggesting transtint IN the finish. And I can say for sure that there are differences in the finishes you listed. 
But YMMV..


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

I have yet to find a waterborne clear coat that last long as oil based. 
If you really want to use waterborne clear .........general finish Enduro Conversion Varnish or their Enduro Clear Poly, ML campbel Agualente, Kem Aqua sherwin-williams, 

All of these are better than the brands i listed above


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