# Emerald/ Duration exterior over bare wood



## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

So I have a house where the black trim is very flaky. This would require a lot of spot priming and I was wondering how you guys feel about 2 coats of E or D over bare wood and how it will look. I have had problems with duration looking see through when using white so I wouldn't consider this if the trim wasn't black. It would save me a lot of time but I really don't fully trust the claims on the can. Opinions please


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I wouldnt. Just get the darkest tinted primer you can and spot prime with that, then 2 coats on top. Those high dollar paints should be able to cover.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

That was the other option in my mind, to tint oil primer and use 2 coats A100 instead.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

Put some Peel Bond on it, then two coats Duration. My magic tint formula for Peel Bond is 1/8 oz black and 1/2 oz white. It makes a medium grey, and the white adds opacity.

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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Skip the oil. I think the exterior oil primers are junk these days. The damn tree huggers ruined it. Quality exterior latex wood primer and top coat. Skip the duration too. The ultra deep base is very prone to looking like garbage. Especially if it gets any moisture on it within a week.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

If the wood is flaky that is not bare wood. That is a previously coated surface that requires prep and an appropriate primer for the scenerio. I would sand, then coat with Peel Bond or SW's same type, then two coats of Duration. Even though the can says one coat over existing paint, it is very difficult to get the mil build it requires. I have tried using 3/4 nap minis on fascia and still need another coat.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Dont some of the peel stop paints come in clear? That might be a good idea if you're worried about color coverage on top.


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## EveryDay (Mar 23, 2019)

All who suggested Peel Bond instead of oil primer (or any other primer) are 100% correct. 
Peel Bonded and then paint it. 
I wonder if "SW Pro Industrial Multi-Surface Acrylic" would be better option than the Duration ?.
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/painting-contractors/products/pro-industrial-multisurface-acrylic


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I know the op was for black. Does anybody know if bm still has an exterior stock black? I remember using it in Moore glo and Moore guard. That stuff literally covered in one coat over moorewhite primer. If they do make it maybe give that a try. I know you'll be satisfied 


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I know the op was for black. Does anybody know if bm still has an exterior stock black? I remember using it in Moore glo and Moore guard. That stuff literally covered in one coat over moorewhite primer. If they do make it maybe give that a try. I know you'll be satisfied
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes both available in stock black. though not all dealers are going to stock them.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

MikeCalifornia said:


> If the wood is flaky that is not bare wood. That is a previously coated surface that requires prep and an appropriate primer for the scenerio. I would sand, then coat with Peel Bond or SW's same type, then two coats of Duration. Even though the can says one coat over existing paint, it is very difficult to get the mil build it requires. I have tried using 3/4 nap minis on fascia and still need another coat.


That's part of the "scam"! It's next to impossible to apply Duration and PPG Timeless at the wet mil thickness required to satisfy the warranty requirements. I tried to do it with Timeless and it was extremely difficult to do. Like you i tried a 3/4" nap roller on aluminum siding and couldn't get the proper wet mil thickness for the life of me. When i called PPG tech, (i was working for them at the time) all they said was "put on a second coat". I could never get a proper answer from anyone at PPG on why it was spec'd at a mil thickness that was nearly impossible to achieve. Just "another coat" was all anyone would say. From what i understand Duration is the same way. They are after all very similar to each other chemically.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

Thanks guys, does anyone know the actual equivalent to peel bond at SW? I just used Emerald exterior on a house and a light cream covered incredibly well over a darker green after one coat ( still did 2 obv). I wouldn't worry too much with it but still I like the idea of adding tint in my primer for this.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

BrushPro said:


> Thanks guys, does anyone know the actual equivalent to peel bond at SW? I just used Emerald exterior on a house and a light cream covered incredibly well over a darker green after one coat ( still did 2 obv). I wouldn't worry too much with it but still I like the idea of adding tint in my primer for this.



Sherwin Williams carries Prime Rx Peel Bonding Primer. It goes on milky white and dries clear. It can be tinted.


I've used quite a bit of it and I think it performs very well.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I think Duration would be a poor choice if you’re dealing with flaky paint. 

I’ve seen Duration cause lots of bubbles and delamination issues when it was used on older homes with multiple layers of old paint. I have no reason to believe you might not encounter some of the same issues on a newer home that has flaking paint. 




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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

PNW Painter said:


> I think Duration would be a poor choice if you’re dealing with flaky paint.
> 
> I’ve seen Duration cause lots of bubbles and delamination issues when it was used on older homes with multiple layers of old paint. I have no reason to believe you might not encounter some of the same issues on a newer home that has flaking paint.
> 
> ...


This is a pretty good point. I'm more of a Benjamin Moore guy, but for older homes I use Ultra Spec rather than Regal for the reasons you just mentioned. The thicker millage and higher adhesion of a product like Duration can cause problems with poorly adhering undercoats. It is a situation where the contractor spec products work a little bit better because they actually don't stick as well. I'm just really not impressed with A100. What about Superpaint?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Zinser Cover Stain (tinted dark grey). Dries in 20 min.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

BhamPainter said:


> PNW Painter said:
> 
> 
> > I think Duration would be a poor choice if you’re dealing with flaky paint.
> ...


I didn't know this potential issue thank you for bringing it to my attention. I rarely use duration or Emerald only when the customers want it. The previous paint on this house was Cloverdale covercoat (bc, Canada) so basically just spec paint similar to A100 or even duracraft. I like A100 or resilience for most of my jobs so any more recommendations will be considered. What do you like about SP vs A100 or resilience? Wouldn't SP gave similar issues like duration


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Its true, you might consider a less than premium paint to use on this home that has had problems in the past. Moisture vapor is always an issue for homes that do not have good insulation. MV will always find a path out of a home, premium paints are more stretchy and can lead to bubbling. Flat finish is the best choice, probably A100.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

BrushPro said:


> What do you like about SP vs A100 or resilience? Wouldn't SP gave similar issues like duration


SP is not quite as high build, but it might give some issues. Again, kind of a Ben Moore snob, but I consider SP to be equivalent to Ultra Spec rather than Regal, as SW would like to claim. I see houses painted with A100 showing massive fading and wear after for our five years. It strikes me as the cheapest of the cheap.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Exterior super paint is a nice product especially since they introduced the "low sheen." A true exterior eggshell. I used it last summer on an old cedar clapboard house and really liked it. Color was repose grey so coverage was not an issue with 2 coats.


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## RR60 (Jul 26, 2012)

PACman said:


> That's part of the "scam"! It's next to impossible to apply Duration and PPG Timeless at the wet mil thickness required to satisfy the warranty requirements. I tried to do it with Timeless and it was extremely difficult to do. Like you i tried a 3/4" nap roller on aluminum siding and couldn't get the proper wet mil thickness for the life of me. When i called PPG tech, (i was working for them at the time) all they said was "put on a second coat". I could never get a proper answer from anyone at PPG on why it was spec'd at a mil thickness that was nearly impossible to achieve. Just "another coat" was all anyone would say. From what i understand Duration is the same way. They are after all very similar to each other chemically.


That is why I am always surprised at how many use Duration on exterior. I find the super paint to last just as long. And goes on better.
If you are going to 2 coat anyway.

Am I missing something?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RR60 said:


> That is why I am always surprised at how many use Duration on exterior. I find the super paint to last just as long. And goes on better.
> If you are going to 2 coat anyway.
> 
> *Am I missing something?*



mooreguard & mooreglo


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> mooreguard & mooreglo




Do they still make that? All I ever see is regal select hi build


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Do they still make that? All I ever see is regal select hi build
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes it is manufactured and BM's #1 selling exterior paint. Some stores carry the high build because it costs the dealer $2.5 less per gallon but then charge the same as mooreguard for it. The highbuild is not the same product and removes the alkyd component that makes mooreguard such a good exterior workhorse. Aura is a highbuild product which I also carry so I don't see the reason to carry to high build products.



I carry mooreguard over the highbuild for that reason.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> I think Duration would be a poor choice if you’re dealing with flaky paint.
> 
> I’ve seen Duration cause lots of bubbles and delamination issues when it was used on older homes with multiple layers of old paint. I have no reason to believe you might not encounter some of the same issues on a newer home that has flaking paint.
> 
> ...


The crosslinking mechanism in the acrylic resin will cause Duration (and Timeless) to actually shrink a little bit more than older generations of acrylics. That and it's early adhesion can cause a lot of issues if the previous coating is not in good condition. "The moose at the front gate (the SW sales person) should have told you."


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

bhampainter said:


> sp is not quite as high build, but it might give some issues. Again, kind of a ben moore snob, but i consider sp to be equivalent to ultra spec rather than regal, as sw would like to claim. i see houses painted with a100 showing massive fading and wear after for our five years. It strikes me as the cheapest of the cheap.


bingo! We have a winner!


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yes it is manufactured and BM's #1 selling exterior paint. Some stores carry the high build because it costs the dealer $2.5 less per gallon but then charge the same as mooreguard for it. The highbuild is not the same product and removes the alkyd component that makes mooreguard such a good exterior workhorse. Aura is a highbuild product which I also carry so I don't see the reason to carry to high build products.
> 
> 
> 
> I carry mooreguard over the highbuild for that reason.




I would much rather use that product but I doubt my supplier would bring it in.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I'm using it on an old cedar clapboard house. Was hoping to use an acrylic primer on the bare wood most likely fresh start 046. Oil primer these days are so brittle. Topcoat was quoted for regal select hi build. Think it's a good way to go?


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I'm using it on an old cedar clapboard house. Was hoping to use an acrylic primer on the bare wood most likely fresh start 046. Oil primer these days are so brittle. Topcoat was quoted for regal select hi build. Think it's a good way to go?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Acrylic primer on cedar still scares me. Moorewhite or another long oil primer might be better. Over freshly primed wood, Regal HB will do great.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Aura is a highbuild product which I also carry so I don't see the reason to carry to high build products.
> 
> 
> 
> I carry mooreguard over the highbuild for that reason.


I started using Regal HB in 2013, and from my perspective it seems to weather better than Moorgard/life/glo. I see a marked difference in the color retention of the jobs from that year when compared to the ones I did with Moorgard in 2012. Maybe it was just the colorant change, though. Three different product names for three different sheens just seemed so needless, though. 

Aura doesn't build as high or cover as well as Regal HB in my experience. It does lay down nicely, though. I basically only use it for hand-painted doors and for houses right next to saltwater bodies.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

BhamPainter said:


> Acrylic primer on cedar still scares me. Moorewhite or another long oil primer might be better. Over freshly primed wood, Regal HB will do great.




Moorwhite is no longer carried in New York State. I used to like the Sherwin Williams long oil but that's dry to the touch in 4 hours now. When it used to literally be 24-36 hours. Any other suggestions on a good long oil?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

BhamPainter said:


> Acrylic primer on cedar still scares me. Moorewhite or another long oil primer might be better. Over freshly primed wood, Regal HB will do great.


Raw Cedar almost always has Tanin Bleed. Cover Stain would be my choice, or another oil-based primer.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

BhamPainter said:


> I started using Regal HB in 2013, and from my perspective it seems to weather better than Moorgard/life/glo. I see a marked difference in the color retention of the jobs from that year when compared to the ones I did with Moorgard in 2012. Maybe it was just the colorant change, though. Three different product names for three different sheens just seemed so needless, though.
> 
> Aura doesn't build as high or cover as well as Regal HB in my experience. It does lay down nicely, though. I basically only use it for hand-painted doors and for houses right next to saltwater bodies.



Switching from universal colorant to Gennex big difference color retention.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I'm using it on an old cedar clapboard house. Was hoping to use an acrylic primer on the bare wood most likely fresh start 046. Oil primer these days are so brittle. Topcoat was quoted for regal select hi build. Think it's a good way to go?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Might need 2 Coats of 046 over cedar. There is also inslx product formulated for bleeding type woods. Still calls for 2 coats though.

http://www.insl-x.com/product-detail/inslx-products/blockout-exterior-tannin-blocking-primer


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## ElegantPainting (Aug 25, 2014)

BrushPro said:


> So I have a house where the black trim is very flaky. This would require a lot of spot priming and I was wondering how you guys feel about 2 coats of E or D over bare wood and how it will look. I have had problems with duration looking see through when using white so I wouldn't consider this if the trim wasn't black. It would save me a lot of time but I really don't fully trust the claims on the can. Opinions please


Neither product can go over bare wood. Remove loose paint, backroll/brush slow-dry oil primer. 2 coats of Duration or Emerald. 

Self-priming only means it will block certain stains.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

ElegantPainting said:


> BrushPro said:
> 
> 
> > So I have a house where the black trim is very flaky. This would require a lot of spot priming and I was wondering how you guys feel about 2 coats of E or D over bare wood and how it will look. I have had problems with duration looking see through when using white so I wouldn't consider this if the trim wasn't black. It would save me a lot of time but I really don't fully trust the claims on the can. Opinions please
> ...


On the TDS for Emerald it says over previously painted surfaces, spot prime bare wood with Emerald and then apply 1 top coat over the entire surface. They claim more than just blocking certain stains. It does say some stains/ knots etc may require oil primer first though.


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## ElegantPainting (Aug 25, 2014)

BrushPro said:


> On the TDS for Emerald it says over previously painted surfaces, spot prime bare wood with Emerald and then apply 1 top coat over the entire surface. They claim more than just blocking certain stains. It does say some stains/ knots etc may require oil primer first though.


You are right. 

"Previously Painted Surfaces-Spot prime bare
areas with Emerald, wait 4 hours, and paint the
entire surface. Some specific surfaces require
specialized treatment. "

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777107843/


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## detailssls (May 23, 2018)

I’m not loving Emerald as much as I thought I would. I used it on my own house in a black two years ago and it doesn’t seem to have the flexibility of Bm top line. I used it bc it was 40% off.


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