# Thumbs down to Aura



## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Started a couple colourful rooms today . Thought it might be a good idea to talk the customer into using Aura to try for a 2-3 coat coverage. To make a long story short , that paint sucks . 3 coats of this Orange color and you can still see through it . The dark / white separation line is my primer meeting the old colour. "See pic" next time I get these colors to paint I'll be trying cloverdaleS Eco logic color base . Used a dark navy blue a few years ago and 2 coats did it no problem. $36 a gallon beats $70 .


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oranges, reds, and yellows are always going to give potential hiding problems. This can be solved with one coat applied by spraying...most of the time. Hee


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Ya maybe , but you cant spray in every place . I think BM needs to re vamp there marketing on that expensive product. Store here says 2 coats any color . Even when they handed it to me they said no problem , 2 coats . I shoulda known from experience, year ago I tried a quart for a red door. 3 coats , still not that great .


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NO product by any company will do ALL that the marketing guys say it will.

With *experience* we learn when to use something and when to not.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Tinted primer.....


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## HD painting (May 27, 2013)

I used aura once.. matte. The color was lighter beige so it might have passed on the first coat. 2nd made it durable. 
Does BM have a red or yellow base for vivid colors? 

I did a room for a friend.darker orange PM200 and 3coats and it still didn't look perfect. But what do you expect with 200...

I agree anything $70 a gal should cover! 
Maybe use grey primer or tint close to the color your painting...


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

I should have know better , I use BM once a month maybe on,y be uses I have to. Although i do love their ultra spec 500 flat for ceilings .... I was going to get that cloverdale factory tint base color , but when I was picking up my ceiling paint , the clerk ensured me it would cover. So I figured I'd give Aura another chance. Tinted primer wouldn't have helped with this Colour , no bigger , lesson learned, stick with what works . Good thing is it's a insurance claims, no trims or casing, so I could get easy 5 coats a day or more, just sour they didn't say your going to need 4 -5 coats with this colour.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Leeboy20 said:


> I think BM needs to re vamp there marketing on that expensive product. Store here says 2 coats any color . .





With the caveat that certain colors may require the color foundation primer for complete hide. The other thing is it has to actually be two coats, as in 4.3 mil wet film thickness each coat. 

A "coat" of paint means something specific in the pro realm, it's more than just smearing paint on the wall.

I don't mean to be rude, but this comes up over and over again here. Aura will do what it says it will, so will most other paints (in terms of hide) provided they are applied to there specifications. 

Maybe I'm way off base here and you're commenting on something more specific than I'm imagining. Personally, I've never seen Aura fail to achieve complete hide with two complete coats in any of the many colors I've tried it in. 

If you have never checked your film thickness as you apply, give it a shot sometime. It can be a real eye opener. 

If I'm being presumptuous, sorry. It's just that I see it so often that many professional coatings applicators in the residential field have no idea (indeed have never even considered) the effect of application thickness on there finished product. It makes a big, big difference if a product is applied to spec or not.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Leeboy20 said:


> Good thing is it's a insurance claims, no trims or casing, so I could get easy 5 coats a day or more, just sour they didn't say your going to need 4 -5 coats with this colour.





Not trying to break ball$ here, but in 2015 no paint should require 4-5 applications to achieve complete hide. If you have to coat that many times, your doing something (film thickness) wrong. 

Just trying to help. Get a wet film thickness gauge and see how thick your applying. If your having to apply 4 and 5 times, that tells me your probably at 2mil or less per application, which is about half a "coat" of paint. 

The key point here is that one application of paint does not necessarily equal one coat of paint. Check it out, realizing this concept and the importance of applying coatings to their specifications can only improve your game.


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## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

It's not the paint that covers but the pigments, unless you use cheap paint. I once used a more funky orange on top of a apple green with a hint of fluo. I oil primed the room first, then took 7 coats of paint to cover the green, yes 7 coats!!! The product was aura for bathroom, but I've use it before and had great coverage. I don't blame the product, but the color. I should have used a gray tinted primer.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Applying additional coats before the underlying coat is dry enough will result in re-wetting the original coat and pulling off as much of the original coat as you are putting on with the second coat. Resulting in less than desirable coverage. Mil thickness and dry time will affect coverage.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Seeing as you mentioned Cloverdale paint I'm assuming your in Canada. You should try accent from Dulux. I've only used it once and it wasn't to bad.


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

Jmayspaint and semiprojohn are right, the salesman at BM should of sold you or at least told you that you will need their foundation primer. I have used it before and has good coverage. Don't think I would top coat it with Aura. It's overpriced IMO, all BM paint is.


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

journeymanPainter said:


> Seeing as you mentioned Cloverdale paint I'm assuming your in Canada. You should try accent from Dulux. I've only used it once and it wasn't to bad.


I use it all the time. Works great and is a decent price.:thumbup:

Cloverdale used to have a really good deep base primer. Haven't been there in years don't know if they still have it


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Jazz_Painter said:


> It's not the paint that covers but the pigments, unless you use cheap paint. I once used a more funky orange on top of a apple green with a hint of fluo. I oil primed the room first, then took 7 coats of paint to cover the green, yes 7 coats!!! The product was aura for bathroom, but I've use it before and had great coverage. I don't blame the product, but the color. I should have used a gray tinted primer.


Aura's pigments are imbedded in the binders of the paint giving better coverage than other paints that have the pigments outside the binders.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

I did put it on pretty thick. I use 20- 25 mm rollers for everything . ( except doors and trim) the 3 coat section I took a pic of , I had a construction heater blowing on it between coats . It was dry as it gets . Here's a pic of the 1st coat. .


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

The lighter blocks are spot primes and the walls are grey . Just doesn't work like they say .


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

What sheen are you applying. Higher sheens will need a long dry time than lower ones. I use Aura for 95% of interior and exterior work and have always achieved full and complete coverage in any color with 2 coats. Most times I could get by with one coat. I mostly use either 5/16 or 1/2 Wooster Microplush.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lambrecht said:


> Applying additional coats before the underlying coat is dry enough will result in re-wetting the original coat and pulling off as much of the original coat as you are putting on with the second coat. Resulting in less than desirable coverage. Mil thickness and dry time will affect coverage.


I suspect a lot of guys regularly push the limits of recoating; if it's dry to the touch, it's good for another coat. Not saying I _always_ do, but I try to allow four hours minimum.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Leeboy20 said:


> I did put it on pretty thick. I use 20- 25 mm rollers for everything . ( except doors and trim) the 3 coat section I took a pic of , I had a construction heater blowing on it between coats . It was dry as it gets . Here's a pic of the 1st coat. .


I've often heard that it's not good for the paint to dry too fast. Now I'm no molecular chemist, but I do think having it do so may affect the integrity of the product. Although on occasion I have used fans, I've never used a heater. Anyone regularly do this with good results?


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes, id say half my jobs get done with heaters . Never have a problem , sure speeds things up


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

I did an orange room with $20 a gallon Olympic. 
3 coats over builders grade off white, and I walked. Customer bought paint.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Leeboy20 said:


> Started a couple colourful rooms today . Thought it might be a good idea to talk the customer into using Aura to try for a 2-3 coat coverage. To make a long story short , that paint sucks . 3 coats of this Orange color and you can still see through it . The dark / white separation line is my primer meeting the old colour. "See pic" next time I get these colors to paint I'll be trying cloverdaleS Eco logic color base . Used a dark navy blue a few years ago and 2 coats did it no problem. $36 a gallon beats $70 .


Why didn't the dealer you purchased the material from insist on using the yellow or red foundation primer tinted to that color that gives the person tinting the paint a formula and recommendation for that color before it allows you to tint the paint? There are 85 +\- Benjamin Moore colors that BM says will need a foundation primer first in order to achieve full opacity. Yes, that would be three coats. Was it a competitive color other then BM prescripted formulas?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

That's just weird. I've never had Aura fail to cover after two coats and I've used hundreds of gallons of the mush. You mentioned you're using 20-25mm sleeves? Those are huge! Only time I've used a sleeve that big was when I was doing heavily textured surfaces. Not sure what went wrong with your coverage.

As for the heaters, I'd rather let the paint dry at it's own pace. I also can't imagine using 240v construction heaters while I'm working. I'd be dying.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

HD painting said:


> I used aura once.. matte. The color was lighter beige so it might have passed on the first coat. 2nd made it durable.
> Does BM have a red or yellow base for vivid colors?
> 
> I did a room for a friend.darker orange PM200 and 3coats and it still didn't look perfect. But what do you expect with 200...
> ...


They had both a yellow and a red basecoat a couple of years ago in the Aura line. Don't know if they still do. Any color with that much bright yellow colorant isn't going to cover as well as any other colorant. Just physics. And it isn't the fault of the paint, but if you had used anything much cheaper then Aura you would still be there painting with it. Except of course any California line with trillium colorants.

Remember, it's the yellow colorant that causes most of the coverage/hide problems and not the paint. I wouldn't give up on the Aura without trying it in other colors. And if you had compared that same color in Emerald, You would have found that it would be like trying to get hide with a toner. I've seen 7 coats of Emerald needed in a dark green to get complete hide over white.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Never had any hiding issues with Aura and we must have used thousands of gallons by now.
In fact reds and oranges hide shockingly well. 
It may be the 20- 25 mm rollers. We only use these when the substrate makes us.
Also dense-tight weave rollers or good quality microfiber ones work well.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

With the rollers , I always back roll . I get as much paint on the wall with a dip, let the roller run out then immediately go over it again so it's like going over with it like a 10-15 . Kinda like spray/back roll without the sprayer .


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> As for the heaters, I'd rather let the paint dry at it's own pace. I also can't imagine using 240v construction heaters while I'm working. I'd be dying.


It gets smokin hot in the room, I do so many insurance claims I'm used to getting in and out of most jobs in a day doing double the production ...but that's another topic :thumbsup:


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

I did forget to mention last night , when I was picking up some primer at the end of the day, the clerk who was serving ( not the gal who sold me the aura) me asked how the colors went . I said aura isn't that good and it's gonna take at least 4 coats, she said of course , with those colors what do I expect ? Two diff stories from two clerks at the same store


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

NACE said:


> Why didn't the dealer you purchased the material from insist on using the yellow or red foundation primer tinted to that color that gives the person tinting the paint a formula and recommendation for that color before it allows you to tint the paint? There are 85 +\- Benjamin Moore colors that BM says will need a foundation primer first in order to achieve full opacity. Yes, that would be three coats. Was it a competitive color other then BM prescripted formulas?


It was a home depot match , that's probably the main issue


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Leeboy20 said:


> With the rollers , I always back roll . I get as much paint on the wall with a dip, let the roller run out then immediately go over it again so it's like going over with it like a 10-15 . Kinda like spray/back roll without the sprayer .


Believe it or not Benjamin Moore caution against backrolling Aura:



> As you brush and roll Aura, its fast dry time may make you think you’ve missed sections on the wall. Areas you’ve just painted will begin to look “patchy” almost right away and your tendency may be to go back and re-roll the supposed missed spots right away...*don’t!* -


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

All the BM guys have their undies in a bunch. 

I always get a laugh out of hearing painters debate their preferred paint. This is how I interpret some of the comments.

I find when using ________, if you use a specific roller being sure to back roll (but not too much), on a day where the conditions are warm (but not too warm), and add about 7.5 ml of conditioner (but not any brand conditioner), then one will achieve a good quality finish (not a great finish).


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

George Z said:


> Believe it or not Benjamin Moore caution against backrolling Aura:


That picture ( test wall) wall was about a foot and a half wide , and 7 feet tall so it didn't get back rolled, I knew it wouldn't cover so I just kept coating it normally .


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

epretot said:


> All the BM guys have their undies in a bunch.
> 
> I always get a laugh out of hearing painters debate their preferred paint. This is how I interpret some of the comments.
> 
> I find when using ________, if you use a specific roller being sure to back roll (but not too much), on a day where the conditions are warm (but not too warm), and add about 7.5 ml of conditioner (but not any brand conditioner), then one will achieve a good quality finish (not a great finish).


Sure, a good painter can make any paint work with our most tools.
They are all slightly different but it only takes a few gallons to adjust.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Leeboy20 said:


> It was a home depot match , that's probably the main issue


Couple issues. I won't try to defend the paint any; obviously I'm a bit biased.

As has been mentioned, I highly recommend a wet mils gauge. I think looking at one would open a lot of painter's eyes.

Other company's colors are obviously not formulated by Benjamin Moore technicians; they're just computer matches. This means both that you won't get the Aura Foundation you should have for colors like this, and that the computer may use wayyyyyyyyyyy too much toner to cover as well as BM colors cover.

Please don't use heaters to dry your paint. It can severely effect both long term and short term performance, especially if it's blowing directly on them. You may not have had trouble with it in the past; but it is a problem.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Couple issues. I won't try to defend the paint any; obviously I'm a bit biased.
> 
> As has been mentioned, I highly recommend a wet mils gauge. I think looking at one would open a lot of painter's eyes.
> 
> ...


 Ok I know. Not another painter story! But I had a painter that wanted to use propane heaters to warm up a warehouse while the were spraying acetone based dryfall once. It took us almost an hour to convince him it wasn't a good idea.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

What sheen were you painting over? What size nap were you using? Were you using synthetic or natural roller cover? Did you thin the paint? Did you roll horizontally or vertically? Are the walls smooth or are they textured? So many different variables that need to be determined before you can consider the paint a failure. I would first recommend a flat paint in this orange color. Giving it one coat with A smaller nap. Then two coats of the aura. As others have mentioned oranges and yellows can be very stubborn for coverage. Though I would not be surprised if any other paint would even take more coats to get coverage.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'd say grey primer or the foundation primer. I've had good results with grey primers in those instances. 
I've had several Aura exterior satin colors not cover in two on entry doors. With the red primer and two they usually do. I'm sure if I sprayed them it'd cover in one


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the problem, one quick idea is to do a brush out next time to ensure you are going to be able to get coverage. Just take a hair dryer to speed things up. This way if you do not get coverage you would be aware and could take a different approach.That is a wierd azz color BTW


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Just for the record, next time you want to do a trouble color like orange in a competitor's color, consider instead just asking the paint store for the next closest BM color. The machine will automatically get the closest one for you, it's usually nearly identical, and it will recommend the right primer and have the right colorants for the job.


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

Yep, as mentioned, if it's a match from a different company the computer isn't going to recommend the foundation primer. 
And even when the computer does give the prompt "This color requires the use of a deep foundation primer tinted to the following:" clerks are so excited that they're actually getting someone to buy Aura that they're not about to go tell the customer they need to spend double the amount they were expecting and will skip over it.

Grey primer could help, but an orange one will help more. Just a cheap gallon of primer tinted to 1/4 of the colorant recipe for your orange color and I guarantee you'll only need one coat of each for complete coverage and even color.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Criard said:


> clerks are so excited that they're actually getting someone to buy Aura that they're not about to go tell the customer they need to spend double the amount they were expecting and will skip over it.


Sounds like your local BM store needs better clerks. I sell plenty of Aura- and foundation, in the rare case people pick an ugly (I mean bright) yellow/red/orange. Regal Select will always be my favorite product, though- for interior, at least.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I had a customer paint a front door bright orange over the weekend (local high school color). Over a white primer two coats. And he said he probably could have gotten by with one coat but he did two because he expected to have to do 4.

But, I'm not supposed to be selling my products on this forum so......


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

PACman said:


> I had a customer paint a front door bright orange over the weekend (local high school color). Over a white primer two coats. And he said he probably could have gotten by with one coat but he did two because he expected to have to do 4.
> 
> But, I'm not supposed to be selling my products on this forum so......


What was the paint he used ?


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

i think I'm going to give this another try


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

You know, this logic is flawed. Say that you used some navy blue color in some random brand that covered great and then you went and used some orange color in Aura that covered poorly. That doesn't mean that Aura is crap and this other brand is great. You are not comparing apples with apples. One orange is not even the same as another. Every color is different and every color made in other brands differs even more. I will admit though that it is deceiving and unfair for the marketing materials of Aura to state that all colors will cover in two coats. This is a blatant lie, and sadly this is the current state of marketing with most companies. The goal is to sell products first and they all get away with a little lying in the process. Also, Aura is the kind of paint that you lay down with the roller and move on. You don't go back into it after it is on the wall...dip and move, dip and move. This probably affected your coverage as well.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Leeboy20 said:


> What was the paint he used ?


I could tell you but I would have to read 3 pages of "I tried their $10 a gallon paint line tinted with thirty ounces of bright red using a $1.00 3/16" nap cover from dollar general at .25 mils wet and it didn't cover worth a cr*p!" bs. Suffice to say that the Freshcoat of exterior paint was from a company based in Andover Ma. using their most current o voc colorant line. Mostly an east coast US brand, but I have heard that there are some vendors as far west as CALIFORNIA.


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

PACman said:


> I could tell you but I would have to read 3 pages of "I tried their $10 a gallon paint line tinted with thirty ounces of bright red using a $1.00 3/16" nap cover from dollar general at .25 mils wet and it didn't cover worth a cr*p!" bs. Suffice to say that the Freshcoat of exterior paint was from a company based in Andover Ma. using their most current o voc colorant line. Mostly an east coast US brand, but I have heard that there are some vendors as far west as CALIFORNIA.


California paints cannot be sold in California State (couple others I forget also) due to an agreement with Dunn Edwards sharing the same color palette. Storm stains can but no California label.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Leeboy20 said:


> With the rollers , I always back roll . I get as much paint on the wall with a dip, let the roller run out then immediately go over it again so it's like going over with it like a 10-15 . Kinda like spray/back roll without the sprayer .


No need too - that is bad technique. Sounds like you stretch the paint as far as you can, (that's the problem). My guess is, it's not that paint, it's the painter.

Check out this video, hope it helps. _*this video has been indorsed by PACman._ :jester:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnZIhBUhA30


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> No need too - that is bad technique. Sounds like you stretch the paint as far as you can, (that's the problem). My guess is, it's not that paint, it's the painter.
> 
> Check out this video, hope it helps. _*this video has been indorsed by PACman._ :jester:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnZIhBUhA30


Well you CAN over-roll. And that would definitely effect the hide. But can't you find another video to show that technique? Maybe make your own since you are a budding Hollywood director?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PACman said:


> Well you CAN over-roll. And that would definitely effect the hide. But can't you find another video to show that technique? Maybe make your own since you are a budding Hollywood director?[/QUOTE]
> 
> among other things


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

:thumbsup:


PaintersUnite said:


> No need too - that is bad technique. Sounds like you stretch the paint as far as you can, (that's the problem). My guess is, it's not that paint, it's the painter.
> 
> Check out this video, hope it helps. _*this video has been indorsed by PACman._ :jester:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnZIhBUhA30


That's a pretty insulting thing to say when you know nothing about me or my buisness. I've got 25 years of my own buisness , I don't advertise, work 7 days a week most of the year . The point I was originally trying to get across was paying $70 a gallon and having clerks say 2 coats no problem was my complaint. P.S. I woulda had that wall done in one dip


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Leeboy20 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I've got 25 years of my own buisness ....
> 
> P.S. I woulda had that wall done in one dip


Then it sounds like you have been doing it wrong for 25 years. Just because you have been doing something for a long time, DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT...


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

driftweed said:


> Then it sounds like you have been doing it wrong for 25 years. Just because you have been doing something for a long time, DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT...


Painting isn't rocket science


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Leeboy20 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> That's a pretty insulting thing to say when you know nothing about me or my buisness. I've got 25 years of my own buisness , I don't advertise, work 7 days a week most of the year . The point I was originally trying to get across was paying $70 a gallon and having clerks say 2 coats no problem was my complaint. P.S. I woulda had that wall done in one dip


Not to be insulting, but I think we've narrowed down the problem.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

No biggee, think/ say what you guys want , not my problem some of you want to paint at snail speed. Thanks again to all that gave advice on the Orange coverage problem. The rest of you paint princesses can ........

:thumbup:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

When I was growing up there was a saying "it's a bad carpenter that blames his tools"


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Leeboy20 said:


> No biggee, think/ say what you guys want , not my problem some of you want to paint at snail speed. Thanks again to all that gave advice on the Orange coverage problem. The rest of you paint princesses can ........
> 
> :thumbup:


I'm pretty sure I rank up there in speed my friend. And all my guys dip more than once per wall.

Here was today's workload, how many houses did you paint today?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ANYHOW, back on topic for a minute! You are correct that the salespeople should have been a little more knowledgeable about the coverage of Aura in that type of color. Just keep in mind that those salespeople kind of have to rely on the information they are getting from ben Moore. They typically don't have the opportunity to test their products in every type of color to see how it hides and how it compares to other paint brands. Most people in the stores, if they are lucky, will get to brush and roll straight whites upon occasion. And rarely do they do side by side comparisons with competitive products, whereas painting contractors for the most part are using and comparing products on a regular basis.

I do comparative product testing on an almost daily basis. This can happen because as the owner I believe it is of utmost importance for me to have some knowledge of my competitor's products. I am able and willing to set aside funds to buy product, and set aside time to apply and test them. As well as brushes and rollers. This ability and willingness to do this is extremely rare. Most store people never get to test a product and there sole source for information is the paint company literature and the can labels.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Carl said:


> I will admit though that it is deceiving and unfair for the marketing materials of Aura to state that all colors will cover in two coats. This is a blatant lie, and sadly this is the current state of marketing with most companies.


For what it's worth, that hasn't been on any Aura marketing in a very long time as far as I can tell. Last time I asked someone to show it to me they couldn't even find it. I've never marketed or advertised it that way.

Edit: Though I still know of one place that says that. It's unfortunate, but probably mostly comes down to it not having been changed in quite a while...


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

When Aura came out in Canada, some decorator on some popular HGTV show made a comment about Aura saying "looks great after just one coat!" Incredibly, this spread like wildfire to the point that the staff at the BM outlet I used in Vancouver were even saying this.

Soon enough boatloads of painters including myself were trashing them for telling home owners this. I'm pretty sure BM eventually got into it telling them to stop.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

driftweed said:


> I'm pretty sure I rank up there in speed my friend. And all my guys dip more than once per wall.
> 
> Here was today's workload, how many houses did you paint today?


None because today was a holiday here arty:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Leeboy20 said:


> None because today was a holiday here arty:


So, this wasn't one of those "7 days a week" weeks you wrote about in post #52?:jester:


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> Most people...





DrakeB said:


> For what it's worth...


Hey @PACman, @DrakeB and any other retailers out there, quick off topic question:

Do you guys stock any 12", 14" or 18" roller sleeves? If so, about how many of which ones?

Reason I ask is the independent paint store I shop at almost, literally, carries NONE. Never 12". And the only time there are any 14" or 18" on the shelves are when a customer special orders some, splits a box, and the leftovers are temporarily put out on some random display. There is no picking fabric, nap length or quantity for me. Just what happens to be returned or leftover.

Is that how it works at your stores?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm pretty sure @PACman carries longer sleeves if I recall correctly. I don't (at the moment), but you have to keep in mind that I'm also a lumber yard and working with only about 2,000 ft^2 of floor space. If I had more space (and more demand in my market) I would definitely have them. Given that I'm almost entirely residential repaint focused, I don't get a lot of demand for them right now. It's definitely something I'd stock if I had room.

TL;DR something a dedicated paint store should definitely have but one that's probably neglected by many depending on market pressure.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

Gough said:


> So, this wasn't one of those "7 days a week" weeks you wrote about in post #52?:jester:


Nope , worked Saturday and took 2 days off to reno my main washroom in my house .


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Hey @*PACman*, @*DrakeB* and any other retailers out there, quick off topic question:
> 
> Do you guys stock any 12", 14" or 18" roller sleeves? If so, about how many of which ones?
> 
> ...


I haven't had anyone even mention 12" or 14" sleeves in my store. I would certainly get them but there seems to be no demand for them in my area. In fact they have 12" sleeves marked down at the Home Depot just around the corner. Unfortunately I can't afford to bring in a product if there is no demand. I asked most of the painters that came in the first few months I was open and no one said they used them.

I even had to mark down the 18" that I had to move them out.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> I haven't had anyone even mention 12" or 14" sleeves in my store. I would certainly get them but there seems to be no demand for them in my area. In fact they have 12" sleeves marked down at the Home Depot just around the corner. Unfortunately I can't afford to bring in a product if there is no demand. I asked most of the painters that came in the first few months I was open and no one said they used them.
> 
> I even had to mark down the 18" that I had to move them out.


We only see 18" sleeves in our local during the boom times in NC. When that stops, they get marked down more and more 'til they're gone.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> If I had more space (and more demand in my market) I would definitely have them.





PACman said:


> I haven't had anyone even mention 12" or 14" sleeves in my store. I would certainly get them but there seems to be no demand for them in my area.
> 
> I even had to mark down the 18" that I had to move them out.


Yeah, all that makes sense. You stock what you have space for, and what people demand.

It just seems the 9" roller size is much less useful today than in years past. The proliferation of high quality mini roller sleeves 7'' and below seem to often work as good or better than the 9''. And the proliferation of high quality sleeves in 12'', 14'' and 18'' seem to be a better fit for big jobs.

Pro doo-z and White Dove come in all those sizes above 9'', and everybody makes their microfibers in the big sizes if woven fabric isn't your thing. And you don't need cages in all those increments, many cages adjust anywhere between 12'' and 18''.

So maybe when the need arises for large surfaces, all those guys are spraying instead of rolling? But even so, they can't really be back rolling with 9''s, can they? I would think even the spray crowd would be using the upper end sleeves.

That's basically why I'm curious.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

We use 18's all the time on big ceilings or larger walls. 

[http://m.benjaminmoore.com/paint-p...re than two coats even in the deepest colors.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

You lost a square bracket in there- should end with [/URL]

Edit: I'm guessing that's the mobile version of the site. I'm also guessing it's probably unfortunately been neglected. The full version of the site is this:

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-your-home/paint-products/aura-waterborne-interior-paint

And it says this instead:


> Visibly thicker, Aura paint covers like no other—even in the deepest shades.


Where the mobile version says this:


> With its superior hide properties, Aura interior paint never needs more than a second coat in even the deepest colors.


Really is crappy, I wish they'd get that off of everything. And while Aura probably will do just about any color given 2 coats (and the correct mils thickness) and foundation coat, there's still just no need for marketing it that way.



In other news, I caught a Dutch Boy/Menards ad on Hulu today which is touting their "new" "No Prep, No Primer" formula. At which point does marketing cross the line into bald faced lies, I wonder?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I used to sell bunches of 18" when I was in Columbus during the NC craze in the early 00's. Nowadays where I am most painters are doing custom homes and repaints, and other than weather considerations they typically have plenty of time to get them done. The only 18's I've sold were to a painter doing rental warehouses and store fronts. I'm sure there are guys using 18" in the area but they haven't started coming to me for a lower price yet, preferring to stay with SW and pay top notch prices on Purdy's even with their discount. I guess they have money to burn.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> We use 18's all the time on big ceilings or larger walls.
> 
> [http://m.benjaminmoore.com/paint-p...y better hide than any of them other than BM.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yellow's always been rough and probably always will be, even with the best colorant lines on the market. From private testing I can confirm the Gennex colorants do better than some other company's, but it's still a tough ask.

And yah, BM has backed off on the whole "two coat any color" deal for sure, all of the references to it are fairly deprecated. I'm glad they did- as has been mentioned by myself and others, it's crappy and unnecessary advertising and I wish they'd never done it. All it does is harm the reputation of the company.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> And yah, BM has backed off on the whole "two coat any color" deal for sure, all of the references to it are fairly deprecated. I'm glad they did- as has been mentioned by myself and others, it's crappy and unnecessary advertising and I wish they'd never done it. All it does is harm the reputation of the company.


Huh, I didn't know they'd backed off on that. Interesting. I still haven't found one instance where it didn't cover in two, but it's not often I have to do rich yellows or oranges which seem to be the one causing problems from what you guys are saying.


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

I just left the BM store and told the owner it was a 4 coater. He asked who sold it to me , so he could give them heck for not telling me to use Aura factory tint primer. He said no way do vibrant colours cover in 2 .


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Leeboy20 said:


> I just left the BM store and told the owner it was a 4 coater. He asked who sold it to me , so he could give them heck for not telling me to use Aura factory tint primer. He said no way do vibrant colours cover in 2 .


It depends on the color, but yah that's pretty accurate. It's probably more the owner's fault than the clerk's (or whoever trains the personnel). The computer won't tell you to use Foundation base unless it's a Ben Moore color, so clerks have to be trained to know when.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Just for the record, next time you want to do a trouble color like orange in a competitor's color, consider instead just asking the paint store for the next closest BM color. The machine will automatically get the closest one for you, it's usually nearly identical, and it will recommend the right primer and have the right colorants for the job.


I was wondering about this even for non-trouble colors.

Whenever I bring in a chip or sample of off-white to color match, I always wonder how it never comes back as an exact match to one of the endless BM whites (atrium, dove, linen, navajo, antique, cameo, cloud, paper, ivory, simply, bone, lily, china, decorator, cotton, ceiling etc.)

If I want to give a client a name for the white on their walls, I could ask the sales associate if there is a nearly identical factory white to my chip and have them mix that instead of the custom color match?


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Leeboy20 said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> That's a pretty insulting thing to say when you know nothing about me or my buisness. P.S. I woulda had that wall done in one dip


I know all I need to know! Let me guess, you can paint a whole room with a quart of paint? :blink:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> I was wondering about this even for non-trouble colors.
> 
> Whenever I bring in a chip or sample of off-white to color match, I always wonder how it never comes back as an exact match to one of the endless BM whites (atrium, dove, linen, navajo, antique, cameo, cloud, paper, ivory, simply, bone, lily, china, decorator, cotton, ceiling etc.)
> 
> If I want to give a client a name for the white on their walls, I could ask the sales associate if there is a nearly identical factory white to my chip and have them mix that instead of the custom color match?


On the Benjamin Moore program, if you bring up either a custom match color or a competitor color (which are just custom matches done on the _swatches_ of competitor colors in the BM lab with better machines), the computer will bring up the 5 closest BM colors.

Personally, I consider it retail "best practice" to give people the option of one of those before I mix their paint. It's more convenient to store in our system and on paper and there's a better guarantee that the tints are the right ones for the job (as per the orange in this discussion). People also just _like_ the BM colors, in a lot of cases, so they like to hear that we've got something that works for them.

I'd definitely recommend asking your local BM dealer to give you that option in the future. In many cases the colors are extremely close, though not typically identical. Considering paint formulas are accurate to more than 1/16th of 1/32nd of 1 ounce in some cases, there's almost always going to be _some_ difference- but most people don't have a good enough eye to tell the difference anyways.


Edit: I think there's 140 colors in the off-whites collection (though some stretch the definition a tad) not to mention probably dozens of others not in that collection- you can always get something close


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## Leeboy20 (Jul 28, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> I know all I need to know! Let me guess, you can paint a whole room with a quart of paint? :blink:


It's ok buddy , don't be jealous , you'll get there sometime buddy...maybe


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Something I have never figured out is why some painters color, rather than paint, just spreading color...

It is the contractors responsibility to study your Product Data Pages. I wouldn't trust a clerk any more than my feild reps. It is your ass on the line, do your homework and familiarize yourself with the coating. There is alot of good information on those sheets and you'd be surprised how many reps/managers/clerks get stuff wrong.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Something I have never figured out is why some painters color, rather than paint, just spreading color...
> 
> It is the contractors responsibility to study your Product Data Pages. I wouldn't trust a clerk any more than my feild reps. It is your ass on the line, do your homework and familiarize yourself with the coating. There is alot of good information on those sheets and you'd be surprised how many reps/managers/clerks get stuff wrong.


Why did I like this post? I dunno; it's not very nice about my kind  . But definitely read TDS/PDS. Also have a relationship with the people at a paint store. Find a place that you do trust, figure out which of them are knowledgeable about their products and which of them are making beer money.

It's not that you can't trust your paint stores, it's that you have to know them before you trust them- just like with everything else. And like Gabe said, if you're unsure it's always best to do your own research. Generally speaking the information is all easily at hand.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Something I have never figured out is why some painters color, rather than paint, just spreading color...
> 
> It is the contractors responsibility to study your Product Data Pages. I wouldn't trust a clerk any more than my feild reps. It is your ass on the line, do your homework and familiarize yourself with the coating. There is alot of good information on those sheets and you'd be surprised how many reps/managers/clerks get stuff wrong.


I always provide the Product data pages to painters when they are trying a new paint. And I refer to them (and my competitors) on a regular basis. There is very important info on them for professional painters. Things such as recommended mil thickness. So people don't try to paint 400 square feet with a quart and what not.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I dug up my old BM Gennex training guide, and it does say "Aura interior never needs more than two coats", so they have definitely backtracked on this.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Tint your primer....and use colors off the aura deck.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> I dug up my old BM Gennex training guide, and it does say "Aura interior never needs more than two coats", so they have definitely backtracked on this.


It's interesting. I was talking to one of the girls at the BM paint shop about this very issue today. For exterior stuff, she was still saying if you go with low sheen you can get away with one coat in most cases? I've just never even tried that before. I have to assume she means with minimal change of colour over what you're going over.

I always push for two coats on exterior as IMO it's more about protecting the surfaces and longevity of the paint job.

I don't use Aura exterior much except for doors due to the speedy dry time. That being said I just did a door for a real estate agent this morning and about 10 minutes ago he sent me a message saying the next door neighbours were so impressed they want me doing their door as well.

It was the first coat.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It's interesting. I was talking to one of the girls at the BM paint shop about this very issue today. For exterior stuff, she was still saying if you go with low sheen you can get away with one coat in most cases? I've just never even tried that before. I have to assume she means with minimal change of colour over what you're going over.
> 
> I always push for two coats on exterior as IMO it's more about protecting the surfaces and longevity of the paint job.
> 
> ...



Aura exterior can actually be warrantied with one coat over previously painted surfaces and will hide well in a lot of cases. Provided it's applied at 6mil wet. 

For commercial clients in some situations BM offers a 5 year non depreciable material And labor warranty with a one coat Aura system. I talked about this is the Aura extended warranty thread. For sure have to get a full 6mil wet coat though. That has to be verified by a rep during application to qualify for the warranty. That's a lot of paint to put on at one time. The DFT ends up being comparable to other exterior two coat systems.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Aura exterior can actually be warrantied with one coat over previously painted surfaces and will hide well in a lot of cases. Provided it's applied at 6mil wet.
> 
> For commercial clients in some situations BM offers a 5 year non depreciable material And labor warranty with a one coat Aura system. I talked about this is the Aura extended warranty thread. For sure have to get a full 6mil wet coat though. That has to be verified by a rep during application to qualify for the warranty. That's a lot of paint to put on at one time. The DFT ends up being comparable to other exterior two coat systems.


From my experience, trying to get a consistent mil thickness of 6 mils isn't worth the effort. It's much easier to do two normal coats in the first place.
When I painted a house with PPG Manor Hall Timeless it was recommended to be applied one coat at 6-7 mils. On aluminum siding and a 3/4" cover I had a hell of a time even hitting 6 mils. Give up on the instant gratification marketing and just plan on two coats, especially on exteriors.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally, I feel with most latex paints once you get to a certain thickness it will start inhibiting the drying process from functioning right. Obviously, Aura is spec'd up to something like 6.7 or 6.9 mils I think, but I'd always rather see 2 coats at 4.8-5 mils instead.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Personally, I feel with most latex paints once you get to a certain thickness it will start inhibiting the drying process from functioning right. Obviously, Aura is spec'd up to something like 6.7 or 6.9 mils I think, but I'd always rather see 2 coats at 4.8-5 mils instead.


Doing two coats will eliminate a lot of headaches in the long run. Proper mil thickness and complete coverage being the two main ones. Along with a more consistent sheen.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> I dug up my old BM Gennex training guide, and it does say "Aura interior never needs more than two coats", so they have definitely backtracked on this.


Does it go on to say something like, "over properly prepared surfaces"?

Maybe the fine print has always intended to include the need for color foundation base coat to constitute a properly prepared surface in some cases?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I sort of wonder which would achieve better hide in challenging colors:

Two average coats by an experienced painter not checking mil thickness, or

One color foundation base coat and one top coat each applied at recommended wet film thickness?


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## Jasonthep8nter (Aug 7, 2013)

I paint paint said:


> I sort of wonder which would achieve better hide in challenging colors: Two average coats by an experienced painter not checking mil thickness, or One color foundation base coat and one top coat each applied at recommended wet film thickness?


One color base one top coat works best


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Does it go on to say something like, "over properly prepared surfaces"?
> 
> Maybe the fine print has always intended to include the need for color foundation base coat to constitute a properly prepared surface in some cases?


Good point. The manual I was talking about was an internal training manual (I like to call them internal marketing manuals) so it really didn't go into that much detail. Many companies data sheets throw the need for a primer into the surface prep section. I'll have to look up the data sheet.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jasonthep8nter said:


> One color base one top coat works best


Probably. The base coat uses factory strength pigments and is a much more pigment saturated product. The base coat doesn't have to have as much durability so they can actually cut back on those additives and resins and dedicate more can space to pigments.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jasonthep8nter said:


> One color base one top coat works best


Yeah, that was my guess.

So for all you painters out there trying to get in and get out in two coats, you're better off buying two products.

For all you painters out there trying to get in and get out in two coats out of the same can, don't use vibrant colors and don't make drastic color changes.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

From actually reading the stuff I can find on the "covers in two coats" deal, as far as I can tell it's always qualified at some point to be more like "covers in two coats _with a correctly prepared substrate, sometimes including a primer underneath."_ So I'm a bit curious, given that the substrate is either coated with Fresh Start (046), Deep Base Fresh Start, or Foundation (depending on which color is going over it) if Aura really could do any color in 2. Still ****ty advertising, but without having to worry about the color underneath I have a feeling Aura could do most any colors pretty easily.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Aura might not be perfect, but it's still better than anything from SW, IMO.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Aura is one of the most advanced very good quality paints. I am sure there are others. Empirical and scientific info of those that know seem to back this up.
Maybe some don't like the price or the slight adjustment of habits, but seriously, bad paint it isn't.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

high fibre said:


> Tint your primer....and use colors off the aura deck.



Unfortunately i forget to do this, when rarely painting oranges and yellows and have had spot primed areas show through and sometimes banding with yellows. I am at the point now, where hopefully will remember simply not to spot prime at all, and prime whole walls. Especially spot primed spackle repairs show more.
Awhile back i had the paint store color match a behr orange sample to ben moore. My spot primes showed through the regal select ALOT. I then rolled aura and it still slightly showed. I think the color match to the behr color was part of the issue.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TKbrush said:


> Unfortunately i forget to do this, when rarely painting oranges and yellows and have had spot primed areas show through and sometimes banding with yellows. I am at the point now, where hopefully will remember simply not to spot prime at all, and prime whole walls. Especially spot primed spackle repairs show more.
> Awhile back i had the paint store color match a behr orange sample to ben moore. My spot primes showed through the regal select ALOT. I then rolled aura and it still slightly showed. I think the color match to the behr color was part of the issue.


As mentioned before, when a company comes up with a color, it's not just formulated to be "that" color, it's also formulated to have the right amount of the right colorants in it. Not all colorants are made equal- they have different properties and vastly different amounts of hide. When you get a custom/competitor match that all goes out the window and you just have a formula to 'get you there' so to speak. This is true across all brands of paint.

It seems like most people also don't get the idea that primers help immensely with color change. I have the hardest time convincing people (even painters) that they're better off doing one less coat and priming instead.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> As mentioned before, when a company comes up with a color, it's not just formulated to be "that" color, it's also formulated to have the right amount of the right colorants in it. Not all colorants are made equal- they have different properties and vastly different amounts of hide. When you get a custom/competitor match that all goes out the window and you just have a formula to 'get you there' so to speak. This is true across all brands of paint.
> 
> It seems like most people also don't get the idea that primers help immensely with color change. I have the hardest time convincing people (even painters) that they're better off doing one less coat and priming instead.


But, what about all of those TV commercials that say such and such paint has a primer in it? Are you implying that those people are LYING?


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