# Painting Over Paneling



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It's been quite awhile since I've painted over real wood paneling since I usually advocate removing it and sheet rocking, or just rocking over it, but I have a job I'm bidding where there is a 1986 home where there is a fair amount of it and HOs just want it painted for now. They will then will tackle it bit by bit down the line. 

My plan is to lightly power sand it then vacuum. Wipe it down with Krud Kutter deglossing formula and then caulk with Tower Tech 2. Lastly, prime with a good quality bonding/stain sealing primer followed by two top coats. 

Am I missing anything?


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Skip all above steps and oil prime.

If you're hesitant you could lightly sand first


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Customer has a 5 week old and an 18 month old so trying to keep it as voc free as possible.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As an exercise, this is how I would approach this request:

1.) Understanding that the customer has plans to replace the paneling down the road, I would give them the option of the most minimal of applications that would last in the interim, saving them a few un-necessary spent dollars.

2.)Besides the basic good practice of cleaning and sanding the surface, I would skip the primer coat, and apply two coats of a primer finish. Possibly eggshell finish 

3.) I would caulk as needed in between coats.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

You're not missing anything. OLDCCM's way would have worked fine if not for those kids. In my opinion, there is absolutely no way to skip the primer coat on paneling.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> As an exercise, this is how I would approach this request:
> 
> 1.) Understanding that the customer has plans to replace the paneling down the road, I would give them the option of the most minimal of applications that would last in the interim, saving them a few un-necessary spent dollars.
> 
> ...


For economic reasons, I'd skip primer ONLY if they were going with a dark wall color. If not, the chance of tannin bleed could be to high.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SemiproJohn said:


> You're not missing anything. OLDCCM's way would have worked fine if not for those kids. In my opinion, there is absolutely no way to skip the primer coat on paneling.


But they have plans to remove the paneling. Does it make sense to charge them for a primer coat and the labor for the extra work when it will all be yanked?

BTW, a year ago, I applied BM Regal Select Pearl finish directly over an existing oil base gloss finish that contained lead. No primer, just a twenty four hour re-coat window. Tested it yesterday. Sticking beautifully!

I'm not recommending this would be the best application for paneling if you expected it to last the next ten years, but it sure cuts out a lot of extra labor.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> For economic reasons, I'd skip primer ONLY if they were going with a dark wall color. If not, the chance of tannin bleed could be to high.


The tannin bleed is a good point. But I have a sense that this particular job may have a clear coating on it already. I'd at least do a sample area before proceeding.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> But they have plans to remove the paneling. Does it make sense to charge them for a primer coat and the labor for the extra work when it will all be yanked?
> 
> BTW, a year ago, I applied BM Regal Select Pearl finish directly over an existing oil base gloss finish that contained lead. No primer, just a twenty four hour re-coat window. Tested it yesterday. Sticking beautifully!
> 
> I'm not recommending this would be the best application for paneling if you expected it to last the next ten years, but it sure cuts out a lot of extra labor.


The smoother the paneling, the more I am concerned about topcoat adhesion if not first applying primer. I have found that sanding can be largely avoided if using a good primer. And who knows how long it will be before that paneling gets removed. I just look at it as playing if safe. Heck, you guys have been around a lot longer than I have...I'm not the painting sage here....:jester:

I have noticed the drying time of topcoats is faster when going over a smooth surface that has been primed as opposed to not being primed. Just my two cents.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> The tannin bleed is a good point. But I have a sense that this particular job may have a clear coating on it already. I'd at least do a sample area before proceeding.


Even if the clear-coating WAS still in tact when he begins, we all agreed that sanding would be integral in preparation, so wouldn't that negate the clear in regards to a tannin-barrier?

Just sayin.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SPJ,

You make really good points. And obviously best practices would dictate what you suggest. However, this is one of those interesting situations that RH eluded to in another thread, in terms of how much are you willing to compromise your standards to meet a jobs "real" requirements.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> SPJ,
> 
> You make really good points. And obviously best practices would dictate what you suggest. However, this is one of those interesting situations that RH eluded to in another thread, in terms of how much are you willing to compromise your standards to meet a jobs "real" requirements.


Perhaps this comes down to the type of wood paneling...I have been assuming a smooth surface...if it is a porous type I would then be concerned with tannin bleed. I would still use primer lol


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Even if the clear-coating WAS still in tact when he begins, we all agreed that sanding would be integral in preparation, so wouldn't that negate the clear in regards to a tannin-barrier?
> 
> Just sayin.


If you are suggesting that sanding off all of the clear would expose the bare substrate, then yes, I suppose there could be a tannin bleeding issue . However, I would lightly sand (without power) with no greater then then 180, and probably 220 grit paper so as to not completely destroy the existing coating.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Turned into a rather interesting little academic exercise didn't it?

Pretty smooth Birch or Hemlock paneling, natural finish that has a fairly high sheen. It's in good condition.

My thought was to use a light grit and lightly hit it with the power sander in order to save some time - just a light pass to give it a bit of a scuff coat. I'll need to wipe it down with something so I felt the deglossing KK was as good as anything plus it will help strip off any cleaning oils used over time.

Through my discussion with the HO they may need to live with this for some time and quality is more of a factor to them than price (within reason of course) so neither of us is interested in cutting corners. Hence the priming base prior to top coating. Maybe we could get by with one top coat instead of two but again, price isn't the main concern here.

Any more feedback or critiquing would still be appreciated.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've never found tannin bleed to be much of a concern with paneling. There just isn't much tannin in the thin laminate that its made of, and if there was the finish has it sealed in. 

One thing I like to do if its grooved paneling is caulk the groves. Sometimes the groves are rough or irregular and caulking can make them look more uniform and smooth. I don't mean fill them with caulk, just run a bead inside the groove and smooth it out. Caulking them also makes them easier to paint.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've never found tannin bleed to be much of a concern with paneling. There just isn't much tannin in the thin laminate that its made of, and if there was the finish has it sealed in.
> 
> One thing I like to do if its grooved paneling is caulk the groves. Sometimes the groves are rough or irregular and caulking can make them look more uniform and smooth. I don't mean fill them with caulk, just run a bead inside the groove and smooth it out. Caulking them also makes them easier to paint.


Jmays, what is your choice of primer for this type of paneling? I prefer Coverstain or Bullsye, but both of those aren't good for the kids to breathe. I have used the inexpensive latex SW primer, and had it tinted. I got away with one topcoat. However, I didn't use that on wood paneling but rather on that glossy, smooth manufactured home paneling. I don't want to assume or suggest that it would work on real wood, but I don't really see why it wouldn't? Those kids make this a head-scratcher for me.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys. Turned into a rather interesting little academic exercise didn't it?
> 
> Pretty smooth Birch or Hemlock paneling, natural finish that has a fairly high sheen. It's in good condition.
> 
> ...


I've learned to ignore clients when they say that they'll be re-doing the panelling, or remodeling the room, or whatever soon. In fact, I was in a house last week where the client ( three owners ago) had told us the exact same thing. We had washed it down, sanded it, oil-based enamel undercoater, and two coats of finish. That was about 20 years ago. The present owner had us repaint last fall, just to update the color.

Plans change, and that quick-and-dirty paint job may be there of a long time, serving as an ad for the quality of your work.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> Jmays, what is your choice of primer for this type of paneling? I prefer Coverstain or Bullsye, but both of those aren't good for the kids to breathe. I have used the inexpensive latex SW primer, and had it tinted. I got away with one topcoat. However, I didn't use that on wood paneling but rather on that glossy, smooth manufactured home paneling. I don't want to assume or suggest that it would work on real wood, but I don't really see why it wouldn't? Those kids make this a head-scratcher for me.



I've mostly used Coverstain or 123.
Used the SW multipurpose a couple times, it did well too. That stuff surprises me with how well it can bond to slick surfaces.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> I've learned to ignore clients when they say that they'll be re-doing the panelling, or remodeling the room, or whatever soon. In fact, I was in a house last week where the client ( three owners ago) had told us the exact same thing. We had washed it down, sanded it, oil-based enamel undercoater, and two coats of finish. That was about 20 years ago. The present owner had us repaint last fall, just to update the color.
> 
> Plans change, and that quick-and-dirty paint job may be there of a long time, serving as an ad for the quality of your work.


Considering how much the lady of the house seems to hate paneling I'd say it won't be there for 20 years - but I could easily see it being there for the next five or so. Regardless, as you say, any work we do is an ad for us and since they are willing to pay for the right process and products then that's what they are going to get. Just checking here to see if I'm on track or if something has changed with regards to painting this stuff since the last time I did some.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've mostly used Coverstain or 123.
> Used the SW multipurpose a couple times, it did well too. That stuff surprises me with how well it can bond to slick surfaces.


It seemed to me if I recall correctly that the SW primer didn't have the overpowering smell to it that the Zinsser products have. That is why I mentioned it as a possible choice.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Considering how much the lady of the house seems to hate paneling I'd say it won't be there for 20 years - but I could easily see it being there for the next five or so. Regardless, as you say, any work we do is an ad for us and since they are willing to pay for the right process and products then that's what they are going to get. Just checking here to see if I'm on track or if something has changed with regards to painting this stuff since the last time I did some.


I'd say your plan sounds about right. What we found is, as much as the clients talked about hating the panelling, what the really hated was the color and how it made the rooms feel. One it was painted, the problem was solved and they decided that they didn't need to take the next step.

I don't think there's anything we've done that improves the look and feel of a room more than painting over dark panelling. The clients are always amazed.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Added kids, parameters changed a bit. More of a vigorous sanding, zinsser 1-2-3, caulk as necessary. Topcoat 100% acrylic latex low or no voc


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I just wish you guys would all get on the same page and give me the correct answer since I have to have the bid to her in 15 minutes. 

Also, how much should I charge and how much paint and primer will be needed?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

RH said:


> I just wish you guys would all get on the same page and give me the correct answer since I have to have the bid to her in 15 minutes.
> 
> Also, how much should I charge and how much paint and primer will be needed?


HAHA...methinks we have all been set up by Master RH, who knew all the right answers before beginning the thread.

Just tell her to take the kids away for a day and bomb the place with Coverstain or Bullsye...:thumbup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> I just wish you guys would all get on the same page and give me the correct answer since I have to have the bid to her in 15 minutes.
> 
> Also, how much should I charge and how much paint and primer will be needed?


As much as you can and more than you'd like.

As far as the first one is concerned, I like to use the client's address as a starting point..at least for the first 3-5 numbers ( to the left of the decimal point). For instance, if the address was something like 1865 or so, we might bid 11,865.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I did a bank job during business hours last summer. 1 coat SW probloc tinted. 1 coat of superpaint. Degloss first. For bid I went 1.5 Xs normal rate but should have doubled it. Cuttin in is slower at the top to quarter round and bottom to base boards. Even if you caulk it its still a bitch to get perfect lines.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I BIN all paneling jobs RH. Send the kids out for the morning and run the fans. As soon as it's dry- the odor is gone. Solves the bonding and possibly bleed problems(many bleed in the grooves). I caulk after the BIN and before the first top coat. I've done hundreds RH without ever a problem. The gloss off should be fine to wipe it down. Sometimes I use denatured alcohol. I rarely sand...the BIN takes care of it. Best of Luck...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've never found tannin bleed to be much of a concern with paneling. There just isn't much tannin in the thin laminate that its made of, and if there was the finish has it sealed in.
> 
> One thing I like to do if its grooved paneling is caulk the groves. Sometimes the groves are rough or irregular and caulking can make them look more uniform and smooth. I don't mean fill them with caulk, just run a bead inside the groove and smooth it out. Caulking them also makes them easier to paint.


I concur. The only time I've ever seen paneling bleed through a coat of waterbase paint, was if the homeowners had been smokers. And given that paneling was used back in the day when everyone smoked, I could see that nicotine bleed through may pose a problem.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I concur. The only time I've ever seen paneling bleed through a coat of waterbase paint, was if the homeowners had been smokers. And given that paneling was used back in the day when everyone smoked, I could see that nicotine bleed through may pose a problem.


Being that you can usually feel and smell smoke residue, not to mention seeing where pictures used to hang, I wasn't too concerned here. Just to be safe I did a test wipe of some of it and nothing came off. This house is immaculate and in very good condition. Just lots of white walls and ceilings and wood paneling.

As for already knowing the answer to my original question; no, not really. Things sometimes change and since it's been awhile I just wanted confirmation that how I would be inclined to do it was more or less still correct.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

I'd caulk after the prime coat. Or does Tower Tech recommend against this? Seems to me that open grain might wick the moisture from the caulking and allow for cracking. What's Tower Tech say?


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Its not rocket science. Just use a good stainblocking latex primer like primecoat 2.:yes:


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

I just renovated my basement room this past February that was originally done back in 1974. Here's what I started with.










As you can see, I had a ton of that Walnut colored paneling. I was concerned with tannin bleed as well as the adhesion issues and decided to roll the dice and sand the crap out of it before trying out Glidden's "Gripper" latex primer. I'm glad I did because the results were well worth it. 

I started by removing the top half of the paneling, installing new sheetrock and a cap for the top of the paneling. I then sanded the crap out of it with my DeWalt random orbital sander and 100 grit paper. This was a lot easier than I thought and I was able to get it down to the bare wood rather easily. 

Here's a pic to show you how far down I was able to get it.










A thorough vacuuming of the entire room and paneling, and then I was on to the primer. This was followed up by a filling of any nail holes, caulking of any cracks, and two coats of Benjamin Moore's Interior Semi-Gloss Brilliant White latex paint, with a sanding/vacuuming in between all coats. The finish looks uniformly awesome and it's as smooth as glass. 










I wasn't sure how it was going to turn out and I have to admit that in the beginning, I was not excited to do the job at all. That all changed when I did not see any tannin bleed through on day # 2. It came out a lot better than I was anticipating.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Bonding primer, bridging liner, and wallpaper. 

VOILA, no more paneling.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So clearly the consensus is to use a primer. With those best practices established, I'll just take my bucket of primer/finish and go home.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

RH said:


> Customer has a 5 week old and an 18 month old so trying to keep it as voc free as possible.


1) shellac primer
2) coat of finish
3) caulk
4) 2nd coat of finish

Realistically, how much of the VOC's hang around or offgas over time? If the HO leaves with kids for a few hours, and u do steps 1 and 2, and get the fans going in one door and out the other, there wont b much for stinkiness anyway...

I redid my entire house this past winter. It was paneling top to bottom. Thats the process I used. Shellac stuck like glue with no sanding or other prep. Just pull in the 1095 and let er rip lol. Would save a ton on prep/labor anyway, but then again if theyre painting the paneling just so they can rip it out maybe they aint too worried about cost...


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

If it's the good thick sturdy stuff be a hero and offer a cheaper alternative to removal. 

Mud all the seams and skim coat the entire thing, and sand (preferably dustless). Prime with SW multipurpose, it's zero VOC, so plus one in the kid friendly column, and paint. 

Bing bang boom the paneling is gone and everyone's happy.  

Since you're in the west, and ya'll have some weird obsession with texture you can have that done after skimming and stuff.  

Here's a little blog post I wrote in the subject, and yes there's pictures too. http://www.paragonpainting.com/remove-old-wood-paneling-the-easy-way/


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Pull that stuff down, paint the back side, one minute per side, BAM bill em 2 hours, BAM century mark!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bryceraisanen said:


> 1) shellac primer
> 2) coat of finish
> 3) caulk
> 4) 2nd coat of finish
> ...



This is what I was going to suggest. With the quick dry and recoat time of shellac you could prime, caulk and get a coat of low voc paint on quickly. 

If the family was out of the home all day shouldn't be a problem.

This is our own family beach house we did a few weeks back when we got rained out.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

bryceraisanen said:


> 1) shellac primer
> 2) coat of finish
> 3) caulk
> 4) 2nd coat of finish
> ...


Considered this route but the number of rooms involved (five) means it wouldn't be a quick in and done job. The previous owners really liked liked paneling considering that in 1986 it was already pretty much a thing of the past.


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## ttalbon (Aug 6, 2009)

In my opinion if they hire a professional they want a professional job, go with your gut instinct and do the best you do.


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

I had one lady started painting a room with paneling. No primer. Went straight on no scuff,degloss, nothing. I tried to scrape it off to test adhesion and it was solid. And the paint was......... Behr Ultra. 

I primed it anyhow though and redid her work.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

The amount of and type of prep works all depends on the paneling. As we know there are a multitude of material and coatings used. In the OP Dan says it is REAL wood, but did not say if it was 1/4" ply with a thin veneer of printed/stain pattern or bead board.

In this house, the kitch was the thin 1/4 ply with a thin veneer. I quickly sanded, set the nails, applied B.I.N., a coat of wallpaper prep, and then bridging liner and a crappy paper. That was 15 years ago and it's holding up fine.

The living room was the cheap pressed sawdust with a printed something on the surface. The previous owners had applied a coat of obviously cheap paint. I had to SCRAPE it all off (which was quite easy as it did not even pass the finger nail test). Primed with X-Prime, mudded the groves, primed the mud, and hung commercial vinyl over it. 

I've seen paneling in a mobile home that was coated with a type of contact paper. 

friends had some type of paneling that appeared to have a waxy film on it. They B.I.N'ed and painted. 

And obviously if it is bead board, one treats it like any other type of wood.

Many solutions depending on type of paneling.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It appeared to be real wood all the way through. Definitely not a printed veneer or bead board. Although I guess the surface could be a stained veneer but hard to know without seeing some off the walls. Also different paneling in different rooms although all of it seems to be higher quality.

All of this may be moot since when I called to give the HO a number all I got was her machine and I've not heard back from her. I looked at the job on Friday so she may have found some desperate soul who could start Saturday. I couldn't.

I know it comes with the territory but I hate when you go out and spend the time to do a thorough, professional evaluation of a project, and then compose a comprehensive bid, and they don't even have the courtesy to get back to you.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

RH said:


> All of this may be mute since when I called to give the HO a number all I got was her machine and I've not heard back from her. I looked at the job on Friday so she may have found some desperate soul who could start Saturday. I couldn't.


whether it's MOOT or not, I am sure in five years some grave digger won't be MUTE about commenting :whistling2:  :no:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> whether it's MOOT or not, I am sure in five years some grave digger won't be MUTE about commenting :whistling2:  :no:



Damn auto correct!!!

Now days you have to proof read to be sure the computer hasn't "mistaked your mistake".


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

RH said:


> All of this may be moot since when I called to give the HO a number all I got was her machine and I've not heard back from her. I looked at the job on Friday so she may have found some desperate soul who could start Saturday. I couldn't.


Well, she called this morning asking if I had a number for her and that she hadn't heard back from me. Guess that's the disadvantage of not wishing to be a pest - even though I did call her Saturday and left a message asking her to call me, for some reason she didn't get it.

So, gave her my price and she said she had another bid coming in later today. Next message from her is one telling me we are about $400 over the other outfit and can we meet their price. From this point on you know the drill - called her back and said the we don't do that. I can only bid what I will do and how I will do it and charge accordingly. That I can't reduce my price to meet the other guy's scope and processes. In other words, pretty much what most here would say when asked to do that. She ended up going with us anyway. 

Once again, thanks for everyone's feedback concerning the job. Nice to know my prep procedures still make sense.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Have you decided upon your primer of choice?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SemiproJohn said:


> Have you decided upon your primer of choice?


My regional company that I usually deal with has a pretty darned good primer that is great for adhesion and pretty good at stain blocking. Leaning towards using that. Would like to use oil but that isn't an option there.


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## Zman828 (Mar 11, 2013)

I've used Zinsser oil based primer that sticks to anything without sanding. I've test it on a lot of applications and it works. If you want to sand go ahead, but i'm done sanding stuff like that! :thumbsup:



painting contractors Jacksonville FL


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Zman828 said:


> I've used Zinsser oil based primer that sticks to anything without sanding. I've test it on a lot of applications and it works. If you want to sand go ahead, but i'm done sanding stuff like that! :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> painting contractors Jacksonville FL


Yeah, I'd use oil if I could. Don't want to due to the children living in the residence.


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