# Paint Peelings on T-111 siding need help!



## ctw1287 (Oct 9, 2016)

Ok so I have this exterior that I'm painting now since being in the painting industry I know the proper steps that I have used is to scrape all peeling/flaking paint with a 5 and 1 then sand to smooth out edges and prime and paint.. ok but even when completing those steps I can still see where the peeling and edges still show after painting the home!! so frustrating so how do I eliminate the eye sore of not seeing the paint peel? I need your help my fellow painters! is there any product I can use to help fill the void? I feel like I should tell the customers since the T-111 is de-laminating that bad maybe they should just replace the siding.


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## ctw1287 (Oct 9, 2016)

Here is my image I was talking about. forgot to include image of my issue to give you a Idea of what I'm talking about


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

T 1-11 is not the best exterior siding that's for sure. After I clean it up, I use a wire brush with the grain, I will caulk the worst of the worst parts. I use xim peel bond primer on it to help seal the cracks, sometimes two coats.It won't level the cracks but it does work real well. S/W makes a similar product but xim is better. Anything you do with worn T1-11 is a band aid but if it gives the owner a few years they can save up for new siding.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Get a good orbital sander. Like a Festool RO150 and sand that crap off already. Then clean, and oil prime the whole thing and backroll with 3/4 or 1" nap.

Trying to hand prep that peeling is futile. 

Also you can sand it really well but you'll still have Decayed wood which does not hang onto any products well When primer or paint peels off in the future there will be wood fibers stuck on the back of the paint chip, indicating decayed wood surface due to uv, heat, and water exposure.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

another issue is that unfortunately there is a very big difference in T-111 from one brand to another as well. Some of it is 5hit. Well in reality all of it is 5hit. But it's relatively cheap so.......just use it and pass that expense on to someone else.

It needs to be sanded down to the point where it is a consistent natural T-111/wood tone color before re-painting or at some point the next coating will peel prematurely. Peel bond will help considerably but sanding it down to get rid of any dead wood fibers is the best practice. Kind of depends on how much you and your customer want to put into it.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

As ridesarize said, I will sand, power wash, prime it with good tinted slow drying oil primer, let it dry and use BM Arborcoat solid stain. It will look very good.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> As ridesarize said, I will sand, power wash, prime it with good tinted slow drying oil primer, let it dry and use BM Arborcoat solid stain. It will look very good.


Years ago t-111 was always primed with a long oil alkyd. Unfortunately we live in a waterbased world now. But somehow i really don't think t-111 has changed at all. In fact they used to let it weather like a deck at one time.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*What I did*



ctw1287 said:


> Here is my image I was talking about. forgot to include image of my issue to give you a Idea of what I'm talking about


I don't do much exterior work, but I did some T-111 back in 2014. I had a front and back with no more than 350 sq ft total area. I spent a full 4 hours pressure washing, being careful not to dig into the wood too much. This got a lot of the loose stain off. After it was thoroughly dried, I scraped the heck out of it, mostly with this:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/418Mvq0br1L._SY355_.jpg

as well as assorted other scraping tools. I don't recall if I needed to sand it after scraping. I think the old stain was weathered enough that the scraper smoothed out the edge between stain and wood. I suppose that if it had looked like it needed sanding, I would have sanded it. Every job is somewhat different. On this job, I definitely think that the pressure washing and long, hard hours of scraping were needed to get the T-111 ready for staining. The scraper I used would probably shave some of the edges of whatever is on your T-111 down so that there would not be not be such a difference between paint/stain and bare wood. I just used this carbide scraper on the edge of a recently painted door that was sticking on the jamb. The blade is so sharp that it did not chip the paint on the front or back of the door, saving me from having to re-roll either side. Sanding after scraping might also be a good idea to get rid of any wood fibers that scraping made stick out.

I don't think a 5-in-1 would do a very good job of scraping, but I am not there looking at the siding. Since you mentioned that the T-111 looks like it is delaminating, perhaps they waited too long to have it redone.

Now that I am thinking about it, I did work on another T-111 job a couple of years ago. Helped a friend do his house and large 2 car garage up in Wisconsin. We ran 2 pressure washers over one weekend. Got a lot of loose stuff off. I would say that you should try using a pressure washer first and be very careful not to destroy the wood. Then let it dry very thoroughly. I am no expert on pressure washing. You might hear differently from others here, but it worked for me. Perhaps the fact that the siding is delaminating might prevent you from doing this. Good luck.

futtyos


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just to be clear, you spent 4 hours pressure washing 350 sq. ft. of T-111?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

MadDog is king , P3 from Superdeck is next then peelbond but all if these are much better then oil anyway all day.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> Years ago t-111 was always primed with a long oil alkyd. Unfortunately we live in a waterbased world now. But somehow i really don't think t-111 has changed at all. In fact they used to let it weather like a deck at one time.


Personally, no offense to any one, Every outside job I do if it's wood I use oil primer and try to convince the customer to do a Solid stain for a finish.
Every new wood siding even if it does come pre-prime I will prime it with oil, I never had any problem for the past 14 years.
what i like about solid stain is it doesn't peel or chip it will fade or flake, BM Arborcoat is a good quality stain and has a good sheen will almost last as the paint.
For exterior on an old historic lead paint I do the same, lead doesn't like thick mill.
I can't replace oil primer yet.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> MadDog is king , P3 from Superdeck is next then peelbond but all if these are much better then oil anyway all day.


I never try MadDog, P3 from Superdeck or peelbond so I can't compare them but I take you word for it, I know your quality of work is excellent.
I will give it try some day :wink:


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Personally, no offense to any one, Every outside job I do if it's wood I use oil primer and try to convince the customer to do a Solid stain for a finish.
> Every new wood siding even if it does come pre-prime I will prime it with oil, I never had any problem for the past 14 years.
> what i like about solid stain is it doesn't peel or chip it will fade or flake, BM Arborcoat is a good quality stain and has a good sheen will almost last as the paint.
> For exterior on an old historic lead paint I do the same, lead doesn't like thick mill.
> I can't replace oil primer yet.



So you've never had any problems with doing arborcoat over oil? I find it won't soak in and you're lucky if their isn't peeling or bubbling when the sun hits it. . Note: I do like arborcoat solid, but would avoid going over a slick oil primer. I guess something like coverstain might give better grip than say BM fast dry oil with a sheen to it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> Years ago t-111 was always primed with a long oil alkyd. Unfortunately we live in a waterbased world now. But somehow i really don't think t-111 has changed at all. In fact they used to let it weather like a deck at one time.


We switched to WB primers for T1-11 about 30 years ago after repeated longevity issues using long-oil primers. Since then, we've had no reason to switch back.

I have a vague recollection of reading an article in a trade rag about the rationale. IIRC, it has to do with water intrusion through surface checks and voids in the plies that allow water to penetrate along the edges of the grooves. The notion is that the WB primer are more vapor permeable.

These days, Peel Bond is our go-to.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Ironically, I read somewhere on a manufacturers T1-11 finish instruction sheet is NOT supposed to be primed with oil primer. They want acrylic products.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Log sheet*



slinger58 said:


> Just to be clear, you spent 4 hours pressure washing 350 sq. ft. of T-111?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I kept an hourly log for this job. Four hours is what I put down for the pressure washing. I kept washing until it looked like no more would come off without damaging the wood. After letting it dry for a couple of days while I worked on the garage door, I spent about 20 hours scraping and prepping the siding, then another 10 hours applying 2 coats of solid color stain and a 3rd coat in a couple of spots. The HO and realtor were very pleased. The realtor thought that I had painted the siding from the way it looked. Maybe I spent too much time on that job, but I certainly feel good about the finished product.

The OP said that the T1-11 is delaminating. I can't see it in person, so I don't know how it compares to what i was working on. I can only tell him what I did and how that worked out successfully for me. Perhaps that would not have worked for his situation, but I am just putting in my 2 cents for what they are worth.

futtyos


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Mostly I don't deal with T1-11in my area we don't have T1-11 maybe a few shed here and there. 
Good to know. Thanks Gough and DeanV.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> So you've never had any problems with doing arborcoat over oil? I find it won't soak in and you're lucky if their isn't peeling or bubbling when the sun hits it. . Note: I do like arborcoat solid, but would avoid going over a slick oil primer. I guess something like coverstain might give better grip than say BM fast dry oil with a sheen to it.


No never ever run to this problem, and most of my customer are repeat, I would have know. In my area we have a lot of cedar Shingles and cedar clapboards. If I don't use oil it will bleed sooner or later.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Just to be clear, you spent 4 hours pressure washing 350 sq. ft. of T-111?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes! TREE FIDDY!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Personally, no offense to any one, Every outside job I do if it's wood I use oil primer and try to convince the customer to do a Solid stain for a finish.
> Every new wood siding even if it does come pre-prime I will prime it with oil, I never had any problem for the past 14 years.
> what i like about solid stain is it doesn't peel or chip it will fade or flake, BM Arborcoat is a good quality stain and has a good sheen will almost last as the paint.
> For exterior on an old historic lead paint I do the same, lead doesn't like thick mill.
> I can't replace oil primer yet.


I'm big on long oil alkyds on bare wood. I always recommend it as a best practice. For longevity I don't really think anything comes close.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> We switched to WB primers for T1-11 about 30 years ago after repeated longevity issues using long-oil primers. Since then, we've had no reason to switch back.
> 
> I have a vague recollection of reading an article in a trade rag about the rationale. IIRC, it has to do with water intrusion through surface checks and voids in the plies that allow water to penetrate along the edges of the grooves. The notion is that the WB primer are more vapor permeable.
> 
> These days, Peel Bond is our go-to.


That's what they say nowadays, and it was right about 30 years ago when things started changing. I think that was the reason for the ageing of the t-111, to open the pores so the alkyd resin could penetrate. It was about 30 years ago that true 100% acrylic primers started to become prevalent. Again, my biggest concern is my same as drywall, in that not all "t-111" is equivalent in quality. 

At PPG they sold just a solid stain acrylic for thousands of M/I and Dominion homes new builds. PPG Prostain i think it was called. It would fade to nothing in three years so longevity was obviously not of any concern to anyone! Painters couldn't even come close to touching it up if the house sat for 3-4 months before the buyer punch-out. If the house sat that long they basically had to repaint anything that was t-111 or hardlyplank. Great product for resales though!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DeanV said:


> Ironically, I read somewhere on a manufacturers T1-11 finish instruction sheet is NOT supposed to be primed with oil primer. They want acrylic products.


Yes the spec's are typically for a "100% acrylic". Before there was a 100% acrylic they recommended oil. The older vinyl acrylic primers of 25-30 years ago didn't give the adhesion on t-111 that a 100% acrylic will.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> I'm big on long oil alkyds on bare wood. I always recommend it as a best practice. For longevity I don't really think anything comes close.


I share that view...for most exterior woods. Around here, we haven't seen anything better for western red cedar, Doug fir, cypress, and redwood. On the other hand, for wood species less appropriate for exteriors, like pine, we've gotten better durability with acrylics. 

Like the T1-11, I think the tendency of the pine to shrink/swell and check leads to primer failure with the more brittle alkyds.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I remember a primer from SW called check stop or check coat or something to that effect that was specifically made for exterior plywoods and T-111. It was basically an early 100% acrylic primer. Worked pretty well, but now most exterior water based primers are 100% so i don't know if they sell it anymore.


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

PACman said:


> I remember a primer from SW called check stop or check coat or something to that effect that was specifically made for exterior plywoods and T-111. It was basically an early 100% acrylic primer. Worked pretty well, but now most exterior water based primers are 100% so i don't know if they sell it anymore.


I'm pretty certain the SW product was called "Check Guard" (and if you give me a few years, I'll even recall the rex#) - it wasn't a solid acrylic, it was vinyl. This was back in the day when SW said for bare wood, oil had to be somewhere in the system - as a prime coat, an intermediate, or finish coat - and thus, recommended SWP Exterior Wood Undercoat, over the Check Guard, with A-100 as the finish... The problem, of course, is that even long oils would "check" on plywood (given plywood's unique expansion and contraction characteristics) - They (SW) may have continued on with Check Guard after solid acrylics made their way onto the scene, but I haven't seen, nor heard, of this product since the 70's...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> I remember a primer from SW called check stop or check coat or something to that effect that was specifically made for exterior plywoods and T-111. It was basically an early 100% acrylic primer. Worked prettwell, but now most exterior water based primers are 100% so i don't know if they sell it anymore.


I think the first one we went with was PPG's Permanizer Plus. Later, we switched to United Coating's Bonding Primer and finally to Peel Bond.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Ric said:


> I'm pretty certain the SW product was called "Check Guard" (and if you give me a few years, I'll even recall the rex#) - it wasn't a solid acrylic, it was vinyl. This was back in the day when SW said for bare wood, oil had to be somewhere in the system - as a prime coat, an intermediate, or finish coat - and thus, recommended SWP Exterior Wood Undercoat, over the Check Guard, with A-100 as the finish... The problem, of course, is that even long oils would "check" on plywood (given plywood's unique expansion and contraction characteristics) - They (SW) may have continued on with Check Guard after solid acrylics made their way onto the scene, but I haven't seen, nor heard, of this product since the 70's...


That's probably a little earlier then the one i'm thinking of but i believe the name was the same. The one i'm thinking of was from the late 80's and i'm pretty sure it was 100% acrylic. It might have been a replacement for the vinyl acrylic as that was the time frame that the vinyl acrylic paints started being superseded by the 100% acrylics. A-100 was one of the first 100% acrylics and it came out in 1984 or thereabouts. (A-100----100% Acrylic. Get it?) It wasn't a big seller and i don't think it was around for long. I'm pretty sure the Checkguard name has been retired by SW.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gough said:


> I think the first one we went with was PPG's Permanizer Plus. Later, we switched to United Coating's Bonding Primer and finally to Peel Bond.


 P
PPG PP was the start of these primers used it often on window seals , concrete , T-111 etc. I've been a fan a big fan and user of peelbond, MadDog and now we use P3 quite often. But again I'll say the crem ga le crem lol like my French eh
is MD it's the top dog for us anyway. 

We use it on interior problem areas as well like calic ceilings as well to seal and then again over are skim ( vinyl paste never joint compounds as a waterbased patch activates the calci ) and it works.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Interesting way to use a primer in different areas then designed. I was talking to a painter who uses Peel Bond on interior oak cabinets to hide the grain when he paints old kitchen cabinets.


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## steverfish (Sep 28, 2017)

I have to add my experience w/T-111 and long oil primer.
We bought a house in Chicago's Western Suburbs in 2000. The house was 23 years old when we purchased it. The T-111 had the original semi-solid oil stain on from 1977. It was in bad shape. Especially on the Southern & Western sides. I pressure washed the house. After sufficient dry time I sanded the rough/open grain areas and then mopped on two coats of long oil on any bare wood, open grained areas, etc.. (I sand between coats & I thinned the first coat). I followed w/two coats SW Super Paint Semi-Gloss. I know, semi on siding but I wanted it to shed as much water as possible. This was supposed to be temporary...
I finally had to repaint in 2020. Truth be told, I probably should have done it in 2018. 
Like the rest of you, I do this for a living. I don't know anyone that wouldn't take that longevity on an outside paintjob. I'm nothin' special. I didn't use anything special. I have to attribute it to the long oil primer. I think two coats, sanded between is also key. Then again I've sniffin' paint for forty years. What do I know?

Newmi


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

steverfish said:


> I have to add my experience w/T-111 and long oil primer.
> We bought a house in Chicago's Western Suburbs in 2000. The house was 23 years old when we purchased it. The T-111 had the original semi-solid oil stain on from 1977. It was in bad shape. Especially on the Southern & Western sides. I pressure washed the house. After sufficient dry time I sanded the rough/open grain areas and then mopped on two coats of long oil on any bare wood, open grained areas, etc.. (I sand between coats & I thinned the first coat). I followed w/two coats SW Super Paint Semi-Gloss. I know, semi on siding but I wanted it to shed as much water as possible. This was supposed to be temporary...
> I finally had to repaint in 2020. Truth be told, I probably should have done it in 2018.
> Like the rest of you, I do this for a living. I don't know anyone that wouldn't take that longevity on an outside paintjob. I'm nothin' special. I didn't use anything special. I have to attribute it to the long oil primer. I think two coats, sanded between is also key. Then again I've sniffin' paint for forty years. What do I know?
> ...


Thank you for finally adding your input. I've been holding my breath now for like 5 years. Finally I can exhale and breathe normally again.


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