# Tiny bubbles. Problems with spraying cabinet coat



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Has anyone had the experience of spraying cabinet coat and getting tons of little fisheyes which mostly level out when the finish dries, but can still be seen if you look closely? I've had this happen twice, last time on the cabinet job we are finishing up. The first time was spraying with airless and a FFT, this last time with hvlp, which Insl-x says is the preferred method of spraying. I really don't think it's a contamination issue, as we cleaned the cabinets 4x, twice with krud kutter, once with krud kutter gloss off, and then a final wipe with denatured alcohol. I shot two coats of BIN which looked perfect. The first coat of cabinet coat had the problem, and so did the second. I am anxiously awaiting getting back to the jobsite tomorrow to see if they leveled out enough after curing for a few days. Really don't want to have to sand and shoot some other product on top. Owners with new baby are coming home soon. Want to be done. Am thinking of not using this product anymore for spraying. The thing is is that I've also used it several times with no problem.


----------



## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

Just had the same problem but with Proclassic on a NC house. Not sure what the deal is. Never was able to fix it but it's hardly noticeable. And it was just in spots. Like... just completely random.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Romanski said:


> Just had the same problem but with Proclassic on a NC house. Not sure what the deal is. Never was able to fix it but it's hardly noticeable. And it was just in spots. Like... just completely random.


Weird. I haven't seen that with proclassic. Latex PC? Airless application?


----------



## tequilua (Sep 16, 2012)

Two weeks ago sprayed Cabinet Coat with airless FFT 310, over Stix primer, no fisheyes detected.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

The fish eyes I'm talking about aren't the typical ones that go all the way through the finish, and are smaller than normal ones. Approx 1/16" to 1/8" in diameter and totally random. They appear instantly when you spray. I even wiped one section of primed cabs with alcohol to see if that helped. Nope. Next day for 2nd coat only stirred instead of shake, still craters. I think craters is a better description than bubbles as bubble implies a thin layer on top. Some of the cab doors even showed the surrounding paint sag past the craters, as if they were fixed points of weirdness.


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

maybe the bin is not fully cured, and is outgassing, mimicking solvent pop...or krud kutter left a residue that its not dna soluble, and outgasses...


----------



## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

Yes Damon, exact same thing. PC latex, airless application with a 310 also. No amount of cleaning helped. At first I thought it was my sand pads (newer purple ones) were leaving residue???? beacuse that was the only thing I've done different on this job, but switched back to the black and still the same problem, on untouched trim. 

I would have called a rep if they were any more visible.. but house is done and HO is happy so what can I do without losing my ass.


----------



## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

more_prep said:


> maybe the bin is not fully cured, and is outgassing, mimicking solvent pop...or krud kutter left a residue that its not dna soluble, and outgasses...


2 + days cure with the heat pumping. I used Coverstain on a mix of preprimed mdf and raw trim, then switched to SW Easy Sand for the downstairs. Cabinet doors had 1~ week of cure and still same issue. I really can't explain it.

ONLY thing I can think of is a contaminate in the pump... but I would like to say it was damn clean.


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I have noticed that if I flush my pump with mineral spirits, then some remains in the pump, even after flushing with 5 gal water and then with dna. However, I had a similar microcracking proble with another brand, and it was a bad batch of the coating I was using. Did not have the issue with other brands, same substrate, same equipment.


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Thin your material more for your final coat.

Add more water. I label everything by fingers..in this case...3.5 instead of two. 

I don't know how to use a viscosity cup. Half the time, I don't know what you guys are talking about. It'd be interesting to learn, but I'd probably just keep on guessing and checking, the same way I made it through AP chemistry in high school.


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Csheils said:


> Thin your material more for your final coat.
> 
> Add more water. I label everything by fingers..in this case...3.5 instead of two.
> 
> I don't know how to use a viscosity cup. Half the time, I don't know what you guys are talking about. It'd be interesting to learn, but I'd probably just keep on guessing and checking, the same way I made it through AP chemistry in high school.


 Is this the cause of fingering paint?:blink:


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Csheils said:


> Thin your material more for your final coat.
> 
> Add more water. I label everything by fingers..in this case...3.5 instead of two.
> 
> I don't know how to use a viscosity cup. Half the time, I don't know what you guys are talking about. It'd be interesting to learn, but I'd probably just keep on guessing and checking, the same way I made it through AP chemistry in high school.


I have a viscosity cup but don't really get it either. I go by how long in between paint drips, you dip the stir stick in the paint, bring it out at an angle, after it runs off and you get individual drips at the end of the stick, I shoot for 1 second apart more or less. I've been told the paint should run through the cup in 18-22 seconds, but that seems really thin for acrylics. 
Not sure what you mean by measuring with fingers. 
The viscosity is affected in large part by temp of the paint so I like to stick the paint bucket in a bucket of hot water. This thins the paint a lot while not diluting it. From there you can add water / solvent etc to get to the final mix. I noticed on the last batch I was able to get the paint from 3 seconds between drips to 2 seconds on the stir stick just by heating.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

more_prep said:


> maybe the bin is not fully cured, and is outgassing, mimicking solvent pop...or krud kutter left a residue that its not dna soluble, and outgasses...


Waited until next day to paint. Bin powder sanded so pretty sure it was dry. 
What do you mean by dna soluble?


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Ever use the DeKups system? My favorite. 

Think of the finger system like this: "I'll have 3 fingers of Glenlivet, and some cheese."

Add your paint. Leave an appropriate amount of space at the top. Fill that space with water. Shake well. Come to think of it..the most water I've probably added using the DeKups is probably about half of an average water bottle. I doubt that's close to 3.5 fingers, unless you've got tiny hands. 

I'm also a fan of warming the material. Time and a place though, right?


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Csheils said:


> I'm also a fan of warming the material.


You don't have to worry about that in Texas.


----------



## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

We had same problem with porter paint oil hybrid. Only happened on certain bases. Had to switch to Advance.


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> You don't have to worry about that in Texas.


Nope. Nope you don't.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Could be one of 3 things. Got a pic? Need to see it.


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Damon T said:


> Waited until next day to paint. Bin powder sanded so pretty sure it was dry.
> What do you mean by dna soluble?


The krud cutter may have left a residue that the denatured alchohol did not
remove (it was not soluble in DNA). DNA doesn't dissolve everything --
it is one of the weaker solvents when it comes to grease and oils, for example.
Since you used a lot of krud cutter, and I know it has a residue (at least of
whatever it dissolved), maybe that residue was outgassing. This would make
micro-cracks as the paint dried. However, I can't explain how anything would get through the BIN layer, unless it cracked also. You might be able to
figure out more using a magnifier (30x is good). Check the BIN also...


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Could be one of 3 things. Got a pic? Need to see it.


No good pics. What are your thoughts JP?


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Damon T said:


> What are your thoughts JP?


He thinks that most painters don't know how to apply the paint and blame the product instead.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Actually he left me a very thoughtful and detailed answer in a PM. 
Possibly a defoamer issue. I may have needed to thin more and turn down the air more, however I shot it the same as I have many times over the past year.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> He thinks that most painters don't know how to apply the paint and blame the product instead.


I think that too for the most part. Some, like all us good folks at PT, of course, are pros and don't do this:whistling2:

Any time I have asked JP for information or advice he has been very helpful to me, by PM or posts.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Just quick follow up. Sometimes its difficult to identify in-the-field but having clear hi-res macro-type photos can help bring the issue closer to the human eye. We had a case not long ago where two issues were at play on the same surface. We had to ship the product back to the company and wait for the lab results to identify one issue was surface tension and the other was related to defoamer but both looked pretty much the same to the eye.

What I do when I experience some anomaly on the job is try to replicate the issue on another entirely different surface, as many as possible to isolate how it occurs. In this case, I would have tried brush vs spay over various surfaces and primers and then over the product itself.


----------

