# Mad Dog FAILURE - Beyond Livid



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Used Mad Dog Durabuild on an interior today. Lots of peeling paint scraped yada yada. Specs for the customers budget were to scrape what would come off without too much time consumption and leave the rest. 

Lots of areas ended up being scraped down to lead paint. Lots. Some areas were ok and the previous acrylic topcoat was left intact. 

Sprayed two coats of Breakthrough today over the Mad Dog. Everything looked fine. Homeowner just sent me pics. It is alligatoring EVERYWHERE it was stripped down to lead. Everywhere the acrylic coatings were are FINE. 

No idea WTF to do. I mean this sh*t is designed for such applications...or so they say. That’s the entire friggin point. Go on their site. They have an historical renovations showcase. You think none of those were stripped to lead paint??

I’m at the point with this job where I’m about to tell the homeowners there’s nothing I can do you just got a free alligatory trim job. 


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Hopefully you’re insured. Sounds like it might be time to talk with your agent about making a claim. 


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> Used Mad Dog Durabuild on an interior today. Lots of peeling paint scraped yada yada. Specs for the customers budget were to scrape what would come off without too much time consumption and leave the rest.
> 
> Lots of areas ended up being scraped down to lead paint. Lots. Some areas were ok and the previous acrylic topcoat was left intact.
> 
> ...


How much dry time between the mad dog and the breakthrough?
As much as I hate to say it, I'm betting the breakthrough shouldve just been self priming, no MD. I'm thinking it's so tenacious that it either pulled the md and the primer coat is cracked OR there was still moisture in it and be ause the BT dries so fast, it dried harder and faster than the md and cracked the finish. Hard to say....just a theory from behind the screen here with no pics.

Solution:
Thick prime rx, peel bond, (insert high build ppg bonding primer here that I cant remember the name of...might even just use their latex undercoater *way cheaper* talk to them about compatability) 2 coats. Hit it with some manor hall satin, get your check and run like hell.

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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> How much dry time between the mad dog and the breakthrough?
> As much as I hate to say it, I'm betting the breakthrough shouldve just been self priming, no MD. I'm thinking it's so tenacious that it either pulled the md and the primer coat is cracked OR there was still moisture in it and be ause the BT dries so fast, it dried harder and faster than the md and cracked the finish. Hard to say....just a theory from behind the screen here with no pics.
> 
> Solution:
> ...



The reason Mad Dog was used was LOTS OF PEELING PAINT. Mad Dog Dura Build is a high build elastomeric primer. Again, the specs for the job were to scrape away as much peeling paint as would scrape away and not get into sanding stuff that would not scrape off. Think of Mad Dog as being a way to "shrink wrap" the entire substrate (intact topcoat and undercoat) together so the new paint job lasts longer. *If* the specs for the job were to scrap/sand everything down to the original lead coating, I would have just used a latex bonding primer (and certainly woudln't have relied on any finish coat being "self priming" after all that labor.


Anyway, originally I spec'c Scuff X for the trim. After reading the Mad Dog TDS, which says to use a FLEXIBLE latex topcoat, I decided that Breakthrough would be better suited because Scuff X is SO hard when it dries. The new low-VOC formulation of Breakthrough is not nearly as aggressive as the original in dry time or bite. Also one of its advertised selling points is that it is FLEXIBLE.


Unfortunately the compatibility test I did was on a small baseboard where all the latex paint was intact. *Again I want to stress that the alligatoring only occurred where it was stripped down to the lead paint. *Everywhere the previous latex coating was intact there is *NO* alligatoring.


Pics to come later...I haven't returned to the job yet.



I waited 3-4 hours to top coat the Mad Dog. It says recoat in 1-2 hours. Even the areas that are right next to the HVAC returns, windows and doors that were open (so they dried quickest) have the alligatoring.


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## Joshua1304 (Jun 10, 2015)

What was the temp in the room during application, millage and humidity ?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Joshua1304 said:


> What was the temp in the room during application, millage and humidity ?




75
60%
6 mils prime
3 mils first finish
5 mils second


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## Joshua1304 (Jun 10, 2015)

Well within the products data page spec. Get a rep out there and problem shoot with them. I’m not familiar with mad dog/breakthrough as it’s not sold in my area but if a hard product dries to quickly ontop of a soft flexible coating it can lead to cracking/alligatoring. Can you tell if it’s just the top coat that’s doing it or is the primer as well? 

Like like lilpaintchic said I’d prob try some PrimeRX or Peelbond, give it a full day then come back with a finish


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

I’m testing out several primers as we speak. I am:

- Simply brushing more Breakthrough only 

- Zinnser Triple Thick

- More Mad Dog Dura Build (I know)

- BM 046

- SW Prime Rx 

Mad Dog directly over lead:










Mad Dog over sound latex:










NO alligatoring whatsoever when over latex!

My spectrum rep is stumped. He’s called his Mad Dog rep and left a message. 




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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

my guess....A little too thick and the outer portion of the filmed dried quicker than the film directly in contact with the oil based substrate. Why it happened? I have no idea.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've had breakthrough do similar when sprayed too thick, It works best with multiple light coats. I doubt that's the problem in your case though because it would crack everywhere not just the lead. 

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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My first guess is that MadDog is too soft to go under Breakthrough. They do not market it for interior products and exterior products are softer than interior enamels. I believe they want a lower sheen exterior paint used over it before a gloss paint is used on exteriors. They do not recommend flats much either, but we have had good luck there, they recommend testing for that effect first.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

DeanV said:


> My first guess is that MadDog is too soft to go under Breakthrough. They do not market it for interior products and exterior products are softer than interior enamels. I believe they want a lower sheen exterior paint used over it before a gloss paint is used on exteriors. They do not recommend flats much either, but we have had good luck there, they recommend testing for that effect first.




Mad Dog Dura Build is interior exterior. Breakthru is interior exterior. And flexible. And did not alligator over mad dog over sound latex.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My guess is still the breakthrough might be too hard. From their pds sheet


> Not for use with oils or latex enamels or other coating which dry to a hard finish.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

The 2 surfaces in the photos are likely different temps while drying.
One appears to be a single paned window.
The other appears to be base or case maybe?
How much alligatoring is there on exterior wall surfaces compared to other areas? Typically single hung=lath and plaster and very little insulation thus cooler and more humid conditions...I'm making several assumptions. I know. Curious more than anything I guess.
My question is with respect to that and the outside co editions and temp. Raining?cold? I'm still thinking the primer wasn't quite ready for a tenacious top coat and it simply shrunk up and took the top coat with it. You see the same effect on caulk or mud that gets painted too quickly. 

Also, any idea as to why there was so much paint failing in an interior space? Might be a clue there to factor in....I dunno. I'm bummed for ya though. What a pita.

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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

People. It doesn’t matter where in the house it was applied. Upstairs. Downstairs. Window pane. Casing as far away from a return or window as you can get. It’s not the temperature differential. It’s not the incompatibility of Breakthru and Mad Dog. BECAUSE: Every single solitary place both were applied over latex are fine...NO ALLIGATORING. Every single solitary place that they were applied over lead alligatored. End of story. Both lead and sound latex are equally through the house. 

As to why it was failing. Old as crap. Originally lead. Then oil. Then latex over oil. And some more in between. There were lots of layers. 


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It’s quite possible that it took the Maddog longer to dry over the lead portions and that caused the alligatoring. 

Based on what you said the amount of dry time you allowed before top coating was about the bare minimum recommended. It also takes products longer for paint to dry indoors because you raise the relative humidity pretty substantially when you spray a trim pack and there is typically less air flow.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

You should have gave the Mad Dog over night to dry specially over an old oil. It will take alot longer for most paints to dry on top of oil paints. Plus Breakthrough drys really hard. Isn't mad dog super flexy?
Who said that was a good compatible 
system?



804 Paint said:


> People. It doesn’t matter where in the house it was applied. Upstairs. Downstairs. Window pane. Casing as far away from a return or window as you can get. It’s not the temperature differential. It’s not the incompatibility of Breakthru and Mad Dog. BECAUSE: Every single solitary place both were applied over latex are fine...NO ALLIGATORING. Every single solitary place that they were applied over lead alligatored. End of story. Both lead and sound latex are equally through the house.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

should have cleaned with thinner, or a cleaner prior to priming. should have let the primer dry longer, or used different primer. Theres a list of things that "could have" been here. 

but what is important now is how to fix it. see which primer does best in your test areas. scrape, fill the crackling, prime and repaint. 

I would be interested to hear what the mad dog rep says.. To be honest, I dont think mad dog would be my go to choice for primer in that situation. But I'd like to hear their solution.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Real question now is. How do you plan to fix it? 



PrimeRx or PeelBond might do the job, but I doubt it. Will only help, but not eliminate. 



My suggestion to get you out of there, skim coat those areas with wood filler. Quick scuff sand, PrimeRx/Peelbond it, and hopefully call it good. 



Probably a reaction with the lead or like others have said, primer may not have been dry enough and movement caused it. Movement from primer or top coat, either one will make things alligator. 



Good luck and let us know how things go. 


P.S.
Just thought of this. In faux finishing when an alligatoring finish is desired, the under coat is designed to dry at a slower rate than the top coat. With the top coat setting up quickly and the under coat setting at a slower rate, creating shrinkage/movement of the top coat, hence causing alligatoring. 



So.....applying the same logic, that's probably your issue. MD not dry enough prior to top coating. Freak accident, sorry to hear it happened to yah.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

woodcoyote said:


> Real question now is. How do you plan to fix it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


pretty much what i said. With a little more detail. Especially the way it alligatored on the flat portion and not the milled curved areas. I've seen the exact same thing happen when intentional cracking is being attempted. It's a weird surface tension thing along with the natural tendency to apply a thicker coat on a flat surface. A harder drying primer would have been a better choice.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PACman said:


> pretty much what i said. With a little more detail. Especially the way it alligatored on the flat portion and not the milled curved areas. I've seen the exact same thing happen when intentional cracking is being attempted. It's a weird surface tension thing along with the natural tendency to apply a thicker coat on a flat surface. A harder drying primer would have been a better choice.


I'm thinking a less tenacious top coat. That's like putting Duration over failing lead. I dont care how good the prep is....It'll blister. Creates a whole host of problems over existing coatings because of its tenacity! Only good on sound surfaces. Imo. Same with bt. 
804 is pretty adamant about it being an inconsistent issue tho. Does the lbp effect md? Who knows...
Gotta fix it and move on.



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## SwampCat (Aug 31, 2018)

Talk about reinventing the wheel.What you should have done was just painted using paint.Have you all forgotten that paint is capable of adhering to a surface on its own?What you should do now is sand and paint.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

My gosh. I wonder what he used on those frames if it wasnt paint!?..Do tell!




SwampCat said:


> Talk about reinventing the wheel.What you should have done was just painted using paint.Have you all forgotten that paint is capable of adhering to a surface on its own?What you should do now is sand and paint.


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## SwampCat (Aug 31, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> My gosh. I wonder what he used on those frames if it wasnt paint!?..Do tell!


It's my understanding that the entire interior was primed using mad dog am I wrong?To me that is totally pointless.Prime bare wood,drywall etc Prime over stains,prime in order to get a uniform finish especially with a glossy finish.But you don't need to prime to get the paint to stick to a previously painted surface.Apply multiple coats,pole sand between coats.Save some work for the paint to do.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> Used Mad Dog Durabuild on an interior today. Lots of peeling paint scraped yada yada. Specs for the customers budget were to scrape what would come off without too much time consumption and leave the rest.
> 
> Lots of areas ended up being scraped down to lead paint. Lots. Some areas were ok and the previous acrylic topcoat was left intact.
> 
> ...


Are you saying you scraped it down to the lead paint? If so did you take the necessary steps to prevent contamination?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Are you being serious right now.?
And what kind of "paint" do you recommend that will go over 100 year old oil paint? Sure Theoretically 100% Acrylic might stick, but I'm pretty sure 95% of the other people here would say a good bonding/bridging primer would be highly recommended. 



SwampCat said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > My gosh. I wonder what he used on those frames if it wasnt paint!?..Do tell!
> ...


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

woodcoyote said:


> Real question now is. How do you plan to fix it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah Triple Thick, Prime RX did very little to really fill the alligatoring. In fact, Fresh Start 046 looked just as good as those with one top coat, so I’m not sure I see the point in using those. 

Wood filler is a bit thick I think to fill the alligatoring. I’m trying Crack Shot in a test area. Have 046 drying over it right now. 

The homeowner asked what I thought of stripping it back down. If it came down to that I would loose my shirt. That would take weeks.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> Are you saying you scraped it down to the lead paint? If so did you take the necessary steps to prevent contamination?




I found out what cereal you like and put the chips in a box of it, sealed it up and mailed it to you. 

YES I took the necessary steps and what does that have to do with anything? Are you the PT Police?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

804 Paint said:


> I found out what cereal you like and put the chips in a box of it, sealed it up and mailed it to you.
> 
> YES I took the necessary steps and what does that have to do with anything? Are you the PT Police?


I'll be looking for the package to come in the mail. Is it Special K, Red Berries?

Yes, I'm a Sargeant hands up, your under arrest!


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> I'll be looking for the package to come in the mail. Is it Special K, Red Berries?
> 
> Yes, I'm a Sargeant hands up, your under arrest!




Dang it. Strawberry Fields. Sorry I tried. 

Seriously it’s just a frustrating situation but I shouldn’t have directed any ill contempt towards ya. Sorry Sargent!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

@804. You may consider more of a grain filler. You can thin it down which would make it really easy to work with.
Some others have suggested " Timbermate" or "Aqua Coat'.


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## SwampCat (Aug 31, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Are you being serious right now.?
> And what kind of "paint" do you recommend that will go over 100 year old oil paint? Sure Theoretically 100% Acrylic might stick, but I'm pretty sure 95% of the other people here would say a good bonding/bridging primer would be highly recommended.


Literally ANY PAINT.Any paint at all.I'm talking from actual experience if you want to read some data sheet read me the side of a can don't bother.The trick to getting paint to stick is to work it into the surface.I can tell there is a very limited number of pros on here.Over complicate things to the home owner not to me.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> @804. You may consider more of a grain filler. You can thin it down which would make it really easy to work with.
> Some others have suggested " Timbermate" or "Aqua Coat'.




Thanks. I’m ordering some Aqua Coat if I can’t find any at my local Woodcraft. I wasn’t thinking those were grain fillers.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

SwampCat said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > Are you being serious right now.?
> ...


Umm. Okie doke. I'm just gonna leave this one alone. 
Good luck 804.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Umm. Okie doke. I'm just gonna leave this one alone.
> Good luck 804.



Just grab some behr semi gloss and really 'work it in' to that 100 year old hard lead paint then hermetically seal it in a glass case _then _be careful to never look at it sideways. Its pretty simple really. All these new paints have primer in them just like the commercial says!


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