# BM for cabinet



## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

Hi, 
we have to spray paint a bathroom cabinet this week and the client wants us to use benjamin moore paint. What primer and finish coat would you use?
I was thinking of doing it with the PS FF. 
The cabinet have never been painted. It looks like some kind of laquer on them at the moment.
Thanks


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Insl-X Stix and BM Advance


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Yup, or Insl-X cabinet coat.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Insl-X Stix and BM Advance


What he said!


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Yup, or Insl-X cabinet coat.


How has that been for you. I have not tried it yet.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

With humidity being a concern I like it better than advance. It hardens way faster, and easily sprays flat.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I have never used the Cabinet Coat. Does it have a smell like Stix?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

No, I don't think so. Its a different smell than anything really. Urethane acrylic.


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

wow that was fast, thanks. I'll check if cabinet coat is available at my BM. I know we used it when it came out on oak cabinet and it didn't work well, but I think it was because the prep wasn't done right.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I am having lots of blocking issues with Advance lately (humidity) - we are waiting longer to re-coat, and it is tying up shop space waiting up to 2 weeks (to prime, side at a time, spray backs - flip in 2 - 3 days and spray fronts, let cure before packing up for install).....too long. It is a good product but I need to turn these projects over faster or it's not worth it.

Is the cabinet coat as durable as Advance?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ROOMINADAY said:


> Is the cabinet coat as durable as Advance?


I cannot speak for durability. But I don't think so. Also I don't think you can get Cabinet Coat like on dark colors only whites and pastel.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Don't get me wrong MonPeintre, Advance is a very nice product, you need to take time unless you hang doors to spray.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I cannot speak for durability. But I don't think so. Also I don't think you can get Cabinet Coat like on dark colors only whites and pastel.


You are correct, only in pastels. I have advance cabinet samples right now that are over six months that a finger nail can mar the surface and ruin the finish. :no:



ROOMINADAY said:


> I am having lots of blocking issues with Advance lately (humidity) - we are waiting longer to re-coat, and it is tying up shop space waiting up to 2 weeks (to prime, side at a time, spray backs - flip in 2 - 3 days and spray fronts, let cure before packing up for install).....too long. It is a good product but I need to turn these projects over faster or it's not worth it.
> 
> Is the cabinet coat as durable as Advance?


I am doing my current set in kem aqua plus waterborne lacquer.They for sure harden up enough to stack and move within 36 hrs. I love advance for trim work especially on repaints, but the lack of hardness is why I stopped using it.

That door sample was a repaint, which is what most of my business is. It is a prefect example of what to expect for my clients. If the kem aqua doesn't perform, I am stuck going back to oil and having to get my room dust proof. 

If I were doing new cabs I would for sure be using a hq mlc pre cat solvent lacquer.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> You are correct, only in pastels. I have advance cabinet samples right now that are over six months that a finger nail can mar the surface and ruin the finish. :no:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what are you using to spray the wb lacquer,chem aqua? an airless or air assisted airless? i've tried spraying wb lacquer with my 3 stage hvlp with lousy results. the air is just too hot coming out of those turbines. i haven't tried shooting it with an airless yet. i fear lots of runs on vertical surfaces.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

It is a difficult product to spray honestly. Verticals do run very easily. I am using aaa, and have to constantly play with the pressure and air. To much pressure you get microfoaming really bad. 

I don't think you could spray it with airless and get good results.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I was doing so furniture with AAA and black WB lacquer. I could not get rid of the micro foaming. Very frustrating.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Sweet spot for this white satin was around 600-650 fluid and 18-22 psi. That is the highest air setting I have used with the 395 fp.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I cannot speak for durability. But I don't think so. Also I don't think you can get Cabinet Coat like on dark colors only whites and pastel.


I'm pretty sure it meets the standards of the kitchen cabinet industry. Can't remember it's acronym. Very hard once cured. Don't give it the fingernail test the next day....wait a week and adhesion is great. That being said we hung the doors the next day or two after shooting with no problem. I shot them vertical, all sides at once. Worked great, no runs. Did have issues with airless and air bubbles or solvent pops. Recently shot with Titan hvlp using #5 needle setup and it worked great. No air bubbles, solvent pops, whatever the heck it was I got with airless I didn't get with hvlp, which is their suggested method of application.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

damon t said:


> i'm pretty sure it meets the standards of the kitchen cabinet industry. Can't remember it's acronym. Very hard once cured. Don't give it the fingernail test the next day....wait a week and adhesion is great. That being said we hung the doors the next day or two after shooting with no problem. I shot them vertical, all sides at once. Worked great, no runs. Did have issues with airless and air bubbles or solvent pops. Recently shot with titan hvlp using #5 needle setup and it worked great. No air bubbles, solvent pops, whatever the heck it was i got with airless i didn't get with hvlp, which is their suggested method of application.


kcma


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Sweet spot for this white satin was around 600-650 fluid and 18-22 psi. That is the highest air setting I have used with the 395 fp.


I am working with agualente around 350psi fluid and 20-25 psi air. First time agualente has microbubbled on me using the same setups. I must be missing something.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I am working with agualente around 350psi fluid and 20-25 psi air. First time agualente has microbubbled on me using the same setups. I must be missing something.


I think you are cursed Dean. First the Picasso's and now the clears.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I am either the unluckiest painter here or the only one that does not lie. Not sure which...and it has gotten worse lately it seems.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Dean have you been in contact with an MLC rep to see what he had to say? I won't use any more of this product or any like it if I can't figure it out. Nothing worse than doing all the prep work and then the last thing you do cause more work. Even worse its supposed to be the easiest part. 

I am at the point that I think using solvents and wearing a full suit is the only way I want to go. I need to invest in better ventilation but I will gladly due it not to have to sand down and recoat.


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## tidenumone (Sep 11, 2012)

I am a parttime handyman, so the cure time does not impact me as much - I only paint on the weekends. I am concerned about the comments on the BM advance not being hard & can scratch with a finger nail.

Is anyone else seeing this?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Dean have you been in contact with an MLC rep to see what he had to say? I won't use any more of this product or any like it if I can't figure it out. Nothing worse than doing all the prep work and then the last thing you do cause more work. Even worse its supposed to be the easiest part.
> 
> I am at the point that I think using solvents and wearing a full suit is the only way I want to go. I need to invest in better ventilation but I will gladly due it not to have to sand down and recoat.


Can you guys post some pics of all this problems you guys are having with clears.

I've only use lacquers, polyurethanes and shellac but none of the WB's.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

tidenumone said:


> I am a parttime handyman, so the cure time does not impact me as much - I only paint on the weekends. I am concerned about the comments on the BM advance not being hard & can scratch with a finger nail.
> 
> Is anyone else seeing this?


Not after is fully cured, I painted some kitchen cabinets a little more than a year, they get a lot abuse from kids, I went by that home 3 weeks ago and they still look like new.

I just finish painting a bedroom with lots of trim with Advance, after 3 days i could not scratch it with my finger nail. Very good product.


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

My BM doesn't carry Cabinet coat, so we will go with BM Melamine paint. It's a polurhethane paint that is discontinued but my store still have some gallon left.
Anybody used it before? Do you think we should prime first. I'm not sure if there's an advantage to prime with a WB like stix before an allyd finish???


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

MonPeintre.ca said:


> My BM doesn't carry Cabinet coat, so we will go with BM Melamine paint. It's a polurhethane paint that is discontinued but my store still have some gallon left.
> Anybody used it before? Do you think we should prime first. I'm not sure if there's an advantage to prime with a WB like stix before an allyd finish???


I would prime with Stix, I've never heard of that product (melamine) so I can not comment on that.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

MonPeintre.ca said:


> My BM doesn't carry Cabinet coat, so we will go with BM Melamine paint. It's a polurhethane paint that is discontinued but my store still have some gallon left.
> Anybody used it before? Do you think we should prime first. I'm not sure if there's an advantage to prime with a WB like stix before an allyd finish???


BTW I've seen alkyds and oils fail when just applied over something that was lacquered before even if it was scuffed and de-glossed. :thumbsup:


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## greg cain (Oct 18, 2012)

I like Zinners B-I-N (white pigmented shellac), top coated with Satin Imprevo.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

greg cain said:


> I like Zinners B-I-N (white pigmented shellac), top coated with Satin Imprevo.


It's a great combination, but I'm personally trying to use Low VOC, Low Odor products and mainly WB's.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Can you guys post some pics of all this problems you guys are having with clears.
> 
> I've only use lacquers, polyurethanes and shellac but none of the WB's.


Edgar these aren't clears we are referring to right now. I have some of what both wet, and cured microfoam look like. These expanded as the finish cured, millage was to spec, and prep was all the same. Had this happen on about six or seven doors.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Edgar these aren't clears we are referring to right now. I have some of what both wet, and cured microfoam look like. These expanded as the finish cured, millage was to spec, and prep was all the same. Had this happen on about six or seven doors.


Sorry I meant to say Pigmented WB's. I got confused with clears.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Does that happen with clears too? I was just today asking at the paint store about Agualente.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

usually, right after spraying everything looks good. But, soon after the coating is laid down the microbubbles start forming.

I really thought this was not going to be an issue with ML Campbell since our first run with it was very promising. Now, I just do not know anymore. I keep thinking I must be doing something wrong and keep trying to change pressure, tips, product, etc to little avail it seems. I do need to track down sec-butyl and try that (Wolfgang mentioned that in an old post). My shop is not to code for solvent based stuff and I really do not want to drop 30k to upgrade. There would be no payback on that investment.

The downside is that when this stuff works well, it is my favorite kind of project to do. When it goes wrong, I usually do not find reps are much help. It is always the same song and dance..."No one else...., Never heard of it...., first time...." And then later you hear it is a known issue, other people have problems as well, etc.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have more experience with the clear Agualente and that product is doing it as well over the black polystar ML Campbell black wb lacquer. And over itself.

It tends not to be a problem with HVLP but more with AAA (and I would assume airless, just guessing). But, I prefer the way AAA applies to HVLP. AAA, for me, is the best of airless and the best of HVLP. Talking more of the Kremlin, CA Tech, Merkur style AAA than the Graco FinishPro 395. Not knocking the FinishPro, but it is not the same things as the others. More airless like than an even split IMHO. And my IMHO is usually wrong.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have a feeling you may be right about these types of finishes. 395 does really well pushing heavy acrylics.

You have a CA tech pump thou right?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Yep. Once I got it up and running, I really liked it. Now, I am not certain. I think it is more a finish issue than a machine issue though. Or applicator. Or conditions. Or position of the Moon. Or it is Steve Richards fault.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

I've had this similar bubbling effect using cabinet coat but only in select areas. I figured it was because I was applying the product too heavily with lapped passes on some kitchen chairs. I swapped tips rather than adjusting my movement and the issue was resolved. Maybe we're talking about different things, but I'm offering this as an option because these photos look like the same issue I was having.

Anybody shooting in cooler temperatures?


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

DeanV said:


> usually, right after spraying everything looks good. But, soon after the coating is laid down the microbubbles start forming.
> 
> I really thought this was not going to be an issue with ML Campbell since our first run with it was very promising. Now, I just do not know anymore. I keep thinking I must be doing something wrong and keep trying to change pressure, tips, product, etc to little avail it seems. I do need to track down sec-butyl and try that (Wolfgang mentioned that in an old post). My shop is not to code for solvent based stuff and I really do not want to drop 30k to upgrade. There would be no payback on that investment.
> 
> The downside is that when this stuff works well, it is my favorite kind of project to do. When it goes wrong, I usually do not find reps are much help. It is always the same song and dance..."No one else...., Never heard of it...., first time...." And then later you hear it is a known issue, other people have problems as well, etc.


You might want to read Greg Saunders stuff about wb lacquers. he likes to use retarders,specifically 50/50 mix of glycol & water mixed together and gently added to wb lacquer while stirring. he says up to 7% for pigmented lacquers or 4% for clears.

http://woodfinishings.wordpress.com...-retarding-water-based-lacquers-and-coatings/

he also like to heat wb lacquers.

that kremlin inline heater runs about $1500

http://woodfinishings.wordpress.com...minal-results-kremlin-in-line-lacquer-heater/

http://woodfinishings.wordpress.com/category/wood-finishing/water-based-lacquers/


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Most important thing I got from both of those was heating your material.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Bm high gloss advance almost looks like colored lacquer. If sprayed properly it looks incredible.


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