# Painting Oak Trim



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I am looking for the best product to use on previously stained and lacquered oak trim and cabinetry. The idea is to go to paint grade. 


My thoughts are this so far: 

1) Paso deglosser to clean, and make some minor bite (in case cleaning products or polish were used
2) High build oil based primer
3) sand
4) High build oil primer
5) sand
6)topcoat etc...

My concern is in step 2. I need something with great grip but slow drying time. My logic is that I want to avoid the grain ghosting through. Final goal is "fantastic plastic" not "faux wood grain" 

SW rep recommends Easy Sand, I have also had recommendations for Bin or Bin 2. The dry time is pretty quick with Easy Sand, i have no experience with Bin.

Would love to cut out step 4 and 5, but I do realize it may be necessary to achieve my goals. 

Any painters out there that have had experience with oak cabinetry repaints, I would desperately appriciate your input.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I always use this one from BM :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Paradigmzz said:


> I am looking for the best product to use on previously stained and lacquered oak trim and cabinetry.
> there are several decent products that can work
> 
> My logic is that I want to avoid the grain ghosting through. Final goal is "fantastic plastic" not "faux wood grain"
> ...


It will probably take several coats to fill in all the grain on oak. I've heard guys say they actually fill the grain in with putty. I generally stay away from oak unless they don't mind the grain showing. Can't get the money out of it to cover all the labor involved.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> It will probably take several coats to fill in all the grain on oak. I've heard guys say they actually fill the grain in with putty. I generally stay away from oak unless they don't mind the grain showing. Can't get the money out of it to cover all the labor involved.



Wolf recommended the fill as well. The job right now is hypothetical (as in still unbid) trying to gather a concensus before I persue. The nice thing is I know that the oak was sanding sealed and laquered 2 coats- sanding between each pass. Its the main deep grains that I am concerned about.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

To answer the question clearly, I'm trying to hide all the grain.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

If you use filler try a plastic spreader like you use with car bondo.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I always use this one from BM :thumbsup:


 Exactly what I suggested over at CT.:thumbsup:

This is the wood filler I was talking about.

http://www.mlcampbell.com/products/searchdetail?search=C211314


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Swedish putty from Fine Paints of Europe would be good. Check out the FPE website. Its really informative about filling woodgrain and other surface issues on wood. I dont know if any US company makes an equivalent product, close, maybe.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

kdpaint said:


> Swedish putty from Fine Paints of Europe would be good. Check out the FPE website. Its really informative about filling woodgrain and other surface issues on wood. I dont know if any US company makes an equivalent product, close, maybe.


 I've used it, but not recently. Pricey, but a good product. If you spend some time you can really create a very high end finish. If you want to knock their socks off- finish with Fine Paints Of Europe products as well. Just make sure you price out the products first. They are not cheap.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Please keep in mind I don't make a living painting cabinets, but I did paint my own this past year. Para, I had to skim coat the door faces to fill the grain. I was going to try and skip the skim coat, but after the first prime it was apparent it was needed. These are the steps I took, I'm not saying this is a recommended procedure. But if you can take something from it, great. Looking back on it now I would have used a different filler to skim them. 

Step 1- sanded cab shells and fronts. 
2- Sprayed with Bin oil primer 
3- light sand, skimmed all door and drawer fronts 
with lightweight compound
4- sand smooth, sprayed high build primer
5- sand , and sprayed topcoat and resanded with 400 grit
6- one more topcoat (i used a satin)

After all that I can still see some variation where the grain is. I wasn't going to go back and skim them again so the wife will have to love them the way they are for now. Heck she found a way to love me, loving those cabinets should be a breeze. :yes:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Exactly what I suggested over at CT.:thumbsup:
> 
> This is the wood filler I was talking about.
> 
> http://www.mlcampbell.com/products/searchdetail?search=C211314




Thanks. Any experience with spraying this product? The MDS sounds like you let it air dry to a dull finish and kind of wax it like a car polish to fill in grains?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Here's a crazy idea I want to try.
Peelbond.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Bender said:


> Here's a crazy idea I want to try.
> Peelbond.


Not good, I tried it. Does not flow out good enough, does not sand good, if you use a brush it leaves brush marks like crazy, but you know all peel bond is different, so with maybe a thinner product it would have been better.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Thanks. Any experience with spraying this product? The MDS sounds like you let it air dry to a dull finish and kind of wax it like a car polish to fill in grains?


 Yep thats what I did with an oak fish tank stand I did a month or two back. I would put it on really thin, start at 50/50 and see how it does, and when it skims you just buff it. You may want to do numerous coats to get the desired fill.

As I said it won't completely fill the grain, but will produce a really nice painted finish.

* Edit 
*
Forgot to add I was using my conventional to apply the paste and finish coats.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Not good, I tried it. Does not flow out good enough, does not sand good, if you use a brush it leaves brush marks like crazy, but you know all peel bond is different, so with maybe a thinner product it would have been better.


Got to be a way to tweak it.


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

why not use a sandable underbody, or lacquer? I used something from SW about a year ago and the name is escaping me, but I remember it smelled really strong, but sanded baby butt smooth and filled grain


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

kdpaint said:


> Swedish putty from Fine Paints of Europe would be good. Check out the FPE website. Its really informative about filling woodgrain and other surface issues on wood. I dont know if any US company makes an equivalent product, close, maybe.


 
We've used it as well, especially for top-end entries, etc. After we ran short on several projects, we started making our own from an old (but simple) recipe: oil-base paint + whiting. When we found a supplier of whiting, we were surprised to find the recipe on the side of the box!

For our Swedish putty, we've been using a regular oil-based enamel undercoater. Now that I've been able to get BM #217, I think I'll try that for the next batch.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

What is whiting? I googled and came up with fish.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Lambrecht said:


> What is whiting? I googled and came up with fish.


 http://www.bigmsg.com/chemicals-whiting-powder-c-200_219.html


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I was looking through the Fine Paints of Europe specifier's manual and there is a product called Brushing Putty. I have not used it personally, but it sounds like exactly what may help you. It says it will conceal grain patterns even in oak and luan and will fill minor nicks and dents and sands glass smooth.
http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

Wow, that brushing putty looks really cool. 

I have used Elmer's putty thinned down a little, followed by BM's Gloss Enamel Undercaoter with good results, but the putty is a little messy and requires thorough sanding.

BIN will give a great seal, but is nasty to use and is a very brittle finish. I would recommend the Enamel Undercoater.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

briancreary said:


> why not use a sandable underbody, or lacquer? I used something from SW about a year ago and the name is escaping me, but I remember it smelled really strong, but sanded baby butt smooth and filled grain



I thought about this. Easy Sand from SW is about as sandable. The problem with Laquer underbody is that it flashes so quick, I dont think it would fill the grains.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> It will probably take several coats to fill in all the grain on oak. I've heard guys say they actually fill the grain in with putty. I generally stay away from oak unless they don't mind the grain showing. Can't get the money out of it to cover all the labor involved.


Yep, Tj nailed a lot of good points here. The words "labor" and "intensive" come to mind. Using a material that can be brushed or sprayed on, that's not gonna fill the grain. You'll probably be ahead of the game going into a project like that assuming you'll have to skim coat the majority of what will be painted. Not unlike skim coating a car with your favorite body filler before final prep. You'll have to "push" the filler into the grain is was i'm trying to say. :thumbsup:

That said, the cabinets you would be working on sound like they are in a lot better shape than the set that I painted. A lot of the grain on mine was open.


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## venetian designs (Nov 24, 2007)

I had a job like that last summer. After a light sanding, I applied a coat of Cover Stain with a bit of Penetrol added, then followed by 2 coats of BM Oil Impervo. Only light sanding was needed between coats, no grain showed. It's important to really brush in the primer.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Lambrecht said:


> What is whiting? I googled and came up with fish.


Sometime, try adding some to soft/slimy window glazing.:thumbsup:


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## HeadHoncho (Apr 17, 2007)

BM Fresh start comes in water based too! It is awesome stuff and when you sand it...it powders very well, doesn't gum up. BM also makes a top coat in water based that does the same thing when sanding, its lays out smooth when brushing..can hardly tell if they where sprayed or brushed! You can get a very smooth finish with these products...easy clean up and not much smell or VOC for indoors use.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I have done lots of oak cabinetry with laquer based primer,sand the heck out of it after 1 coat,lay it down flat and flood them with at least 2 more coats of primer,finish sand and topcoa,with great results,very little if any of the deep grain holes.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Resurrecting this thread to see if anyone has had an epiphany since March. This job may pop up in the near future (thought it was a dead lead). It would be pretty cool since I finished this house the first time around. Maybe I'll do 2 videos for it, once at the start to see my first finish, then another one after the complete revamp is done. Either way, I'll know in the next 3 weeks if this project is a go.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Interesting. I was on a job last week where the GC decided to patch some oak doors with drywall mud. Yes drywall mud. Don't ask.

It made me think of this thread so I snapped a pic. After sanding it you can still see the grain.
Bonding primer and 2 finish.


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## Scraper (Nov 22, 2009)

I have always wondered ....Why does everybody dislike painted grain so much? It is textured wood after all. If coated properly, it is pretty. JMO
Eddi


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Bender said:


> Interesting. I was on a job last week where the GC decided to patch some oak doors with drywall mud. Yes drywall mud. Don't ask.
> 
> It made me think of this thread so I snapped a pic. After sanding it you can still see the grain.
> Bonding primer and 2 finish.


Actually I'm guilty of doing the same thing on some of my own oak cabinets years ago. I skimmed them. 2 coats of high build primer. sanded, 2 coats of finish, cleared. actually turned out pretty nice. 

I would obviously use a different filler today, but at the time I took a play outta my dad's handbook. "I just used what I had available" lol :thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Don't get me wrong - I totally understand where you're coming from, but isn't it interesting that we've gotten to a point where even a little bit of grain bothers us (me included) on "real" wood cabinets?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Paradigmzz,

It's going to be a helluva lot easier to get new doors. Try to convince your customer to get maple shaker doors or even MDF - you'd be surprised how inexpensive they are when compared with the time/labor/material cost of trying to fill the grain. 

But, you could try MLC Level primer. You can build it to 12 mils dry. If that doesn't work then nothing will.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I especially like the before and after photo Different strokes. super great job on the cabinets!!! what a remarkable difference.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

My god,the waste of time I see bandied about on this forum is incredible.

Get some Lacquer undercoat.

Spray it on the oak,let it dry,sand the hell out of it.

Spray on some more lacquer undercoat,let it dry.spray on some more,let it dry,finish sand it,finish it with topcoat of your choice.

Lacquer undercoat is as good a grain filler for Oak as any putty ot glaze or glue.

Jeezus H Christ.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

propainterJ said:


> My god,the waste of time I see bandied about on this forum is incredible.
> 
> Get some Lacquer undercoat.
> 
> ...


I had no idea he was a member... I'm watchin' what I'm sayin' from now on.:icon_eek:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

propainterJ said:


> My god,the waste of time I see bandied about on this forum is incredible.
> 
> Get some Lacquer undercoat.
> 
> ...


Most lacs are not great to spray in an occupied home, much less multiple coats. 

I like your style, however.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

The job requirements spec'd for jobs such as this or others where the painter is required to do so much work to aquire a particular finished product, yet still cost less than replacement is an example of where I quickly make a point of suggesting install of a different material if they want a different look. Here, for instance, I would suggest hanging cabinets without a grain pattern like this if they don't want to see it. Either way the customer is going to pay to have the grain removed. Either by enclosing the area and spraying laquer undercoater, having the kitchen unoccupied for some time or by filling methods, or by purchasing new ones..... Likely could get new doors for less $ in the end and have a dob done 'right', unless the painter wants to pay for it just to prove it can be done. If that makes sense. Kind of like an exterior I am doing now, new PVC trim installed. Builder wants the joints feathered out to hide as much of the irregularities in the joints as possible. I have to explain to him how having them installed properly, beginning from the framing to the sheathing to the fastening of the trim, would be less expensive than me performing work likened to that of an auto body shop only to have it look patched rather than doing it right from the beginning. They want perfection? Cost plus.. 

Yes, painters make many carpenters look not so bad as they really are, but if your trying to dress up and put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. 

Customer wants to paint some real wood doors and have them smooth? Poplar is a good wood chioce. Oak? Be willing to pay more. A lot more. Make oak grain go away and be as nice looking as poplar doors painted, yea it can be done with time invested. 

Me? I'm selling time. Mine and my crews. This properly explained prior to beginning a project like this makes for a win for all parties involved.


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

I got some oak cabinets coming up 
In October . The HO wants them painted 
Wood grain not an issue , lacquer under coater not an option . More worried about smell thinking I could just use cover stain .
After I clean them , Not really tired the orderless stuff all that much. 
I really don't trust using a water Bourne primer on oak cabinets . The finish would either be cabinet coat if I can get it tinted to the color they want . Maybe advance or km dura poxy or 1930 hybrid . As top coats . Any suggestions ?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

BM advance.


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