# ben moore 'deep base'



## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

OK, so the cust. wants deep colors (bdrms). deep plum & forest green. i get BM regal-matte... this stuff is somewhere between paint & water! seriously, 40 yrs, i have never opened a can of BM, to have it be that thin!!!

is this normal now? is it cause they are phasing out regal? should i have went w/ Ben, or ...

had i known, i would have spent the $ on aura. - i think that's their ploy!


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

*ps*

ps- of course coverage sucks. 4 or more coats!!! btw, i primed the walls w/ tinted primer (gray).
i could have done one coat w/ moorguard... just as long to dry.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Regal was always thinner in deep bases. 

Natura, Aura or Duration on 3 and 4's all day long.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

The BM Super Spec ulrtra deep bases cover nicely.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Weird..they're a bit thinner but not that bad. Was it regal classic or select? The deep bases are usually fine, was it an off the shelf color or a match? The can get goofy if the get over tinted, which sometimes happens with custom colors.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Deeper the base the less it will hide and the more colorant they put in it which makes it thinner.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

For ultra deep I've been recently converted to the power of Aura. 

Goodbye 1st primer coat, hello money.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Regal was always thinner in deep bases.


Regal has less viscosity in all bases, and plain and simple it sucks. its also a very soft coating. I would arm wrestle Vista Paints Carefree product over Regal, but that's JMO.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

i know , i know . but years ago it was better... thicker, coverage, etc.

i wanna leave it in a 5, uncovered, overnight to thicken!


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

rjensen ptg said:


> i know , i know . but years ago it was better... thicker, coverage, etc.
> 
> i wanna leave it in a 5, uncovered, overnight to thicken!


Formulas always change due to "Product enhancement" lol other wise known as "Increasing their profit margin"

Also, some paint companies go to different companies to provide their colorants used to tint paint.

As far as leaving the paint opened over night to thicken up. Never heard of that one unless you stuck it outside in the dead of winter, but I could be wrong.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> ps- of course coverage sucks. 4 or more coats!!! btw, i primed the walls w/ tinted primer (gray).
> i could have done one coat w/ moorguard... just as long to dry.


Moorguard, as in the exterior line of paint?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Moorguard, as in the exterior line of paint?


Think he may be confused :blink:


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

I would suggest ben. I've never needed more than two coats with ben.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Wood511 said:


> I would suggest ben. I've never needed more than two coats with ben.


What about with red?

and are you talking about after a primer block coat?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> What about with red?
> 
> and are you talking about after a primer block coat?


Much depends on the color and the specific tints and quantities going in the can. Certain Reds can hide without issues, others can have problems. Your dealer _should_ know if it will be a problem color or not.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Much depends on the color and the specific tints and quantities going in the can. Certain Reds can hide without issues, others can have problems. Your dealer _should_ know if it will be a problem color or not.


I did a red accent wall over builders white this week and used Aura. Two coats, solid coverage. It almost covered in one. I'm sold on it now. No other paint line that I've used would have covered in two like this. 

I also like the fast recoat time. 

When I talked to my dealer about the color, he said the color didn't have a suggested primer to go with it. Is that what you mean? Some formulas the computer will say if its suggested to prime first, even with aura?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> When I talked to my dealer about the color, he said the color didn't have a suggested primer to go with it. Is that what you mean? Some formulas the computer will say if its suggested to prime first, even with aura?


Yes depending on the color, sometimes it will recommend a primer. Most of the "affinity" colors AF-** dont require any primer. Some of the real vibrant colors, or competitor colors, SW, Ralph Lauren, Martha Stewart, etc etc...will recommend a primer. In order to make the color, the tints required are very bright with almost no hide, its a trade off I suppose. I guess on those type of colors it just sucks less with Aura than other brands


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

................................


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> What about with red?
> 
> and are you talking about after a primer block coat?


I'm also an Aura fan. Most Aura jobs are one coat for me.

If I know I'm going to have to do two coats, then I may go with ben just to save the expense.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Wood511 said:


> I'm also an Aura fan. Most Aura jobs are one coat for me.
> 
> If I know I'm going to have to do two coats, then I may go with ben just to save the expense.


even if the red I did covered in one, I'd still do two. and it almost did.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Doing a pale yellow today. 3 coats for sure


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> Doing a pale yellow today. 3 coats for sure


not with aura


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Bender said:


> Doing a pale yellow today. 3 coats for sure


Not with ben either. Seriously man...have you tried the stuff?

I did a tan (hopsack) over maroon a few months back with ben and if I had slow rolled it, it would have done it in one coat. The HO came in and asked why I was doing two coats halfway through the first coat. I was surprised that it hid that well, although it was flat over flat...so that helped. Egg over egg would have been two coats, but I have yet to run into anything where I've needed three.

I'm not saying it's not out there. Certain combo's could need three, but I just haven't run into that yet.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Wood511 said:


> Not with ben either. Seriously man...have you tried the stuff?
> 
> I did a tan (hopsack) over maroon a few months back with ben and if I had slow rolled it, it would have done it in one coat. The HO came in and asked why I was doing two coats halfway through the first coat. I was surprised that it hid that well, although it was flat over flat...so that helped. Egg over egg would have been two coats, but I have yet to run into anything where I've needed three.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not out there. Certain combo's could need three, but I just haven't run into that yet.


First off, I never understood all you guys who put flat on walls. And alot of you do. It don't wash good, etc. 

2nd, I've used hopsack as well. Seems to be a popular color

3rd, Have you never done a deep red over white? That will take three coats unless you use aura


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> First off, I never understood all you guys who put flat on walls. And alot of you do. It don't wash good, etc.
> 
> 2nd, I've used hopsack as well. Seems to be a popular color
> 
> 3rd, Have you never done a deep red over white? That will take three coats unless you use aura


I put the flattest stuff I can get away with on walls. Why shouldn't I make my work look good?

Having said that, most people want eggshell and I agree. In this particular situation, the guy already had flat on his walls. When doing the estimate I said "same sheen?" and he said "yep" - case closed. They are retired and this room gets very little traffic anyway. The flat they had looked fine in terms of wear after many years, so I doubt they'd ever need to wash it anyway. I've tried to talk people out of semigloss on walls, but never flat - unless it was an obvious situation where flat was going to be wrong for them.

I have not put deep red over white yet using BM products. Would this be a red that requires the primer for Aura? Do you mean primer plus 2 for Aura? If it takes three with ben, then I would do three with ben instead of primer and two with Aura.

I understand that BM suggests priming certain reds/yellows etc... when using Aura. I haven't heard that for ben. Is that the case? Both use gennex, but the base paint has an obviously different chemical composition.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Wood511 said:


> I put the flattest stuff I can get away with on walls. Why shouldn't I make my work look good?
> Not hard to make eggshell look good in most cases
> 
> Having said that, most people want eggshell and I agree. In this particular situation, the guy already had flat on his walls. When doing the estimate I said "same sheen?" and he said "yep" - case closed. They are retired and this room gets very little traffic anyway. The flat they had looked fine in terms of wear after many years, so I doubt they'd ever need to wash it anyway. I've tried to talk people out of semigloss on walls, but never flat - unless it was an obvious situation where flat was going to be wrong for them.
> ...


Yeah, theres no way to know for sure whether or not aura will require a primer base coat, although they will say on the computer in most cases when it is suggested for that particular color. In that case, I'd go with ben too, there is no savings going with aura in that situation, except for the fast recoat time, which other deep bases take longer. So aura could still save time and make it possible to get more done in a day.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Yeah, theres no way to know for sure whether or not aura will require a primer base coat, although they will say on the computer in most cases when it is suggested for that particular color. In that case, I'd go with ben too, there is no savings going with aura in that situation, except for the fast recoat time, which other deep bases take longer. So aura could still save time and make it possible to get more done in a day.


You sound more and more like a salesman everyday. Now dont go and show up at my house with muddy feet trying to tell me how awesome the Shark Steam Vac you're selling is :whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I never did that great with sales, I have a tendency to tell the truth and I don't like kissing ass.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> I never did that great with sales, I have a tendency to tell the truth and I don't like kissing ass.


That's my form of selling and it works  Tell the truth, don't BS, and nobody likes a kissass.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Bender said:


> Doing a pale yellow today. 3 coats for sure


No worries MON! Just do what I do.I explain what LH means to people and that low hyde paint does not cover well.I explain that we will do our best, but after our standard 2 coat we will charge per coat there after in the amount of ***.

I know home owners sometimes tell me they have a budget they can not go over, so I tell them I have a family that depends on my bottom line to survive and I cant bust that either.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

TJ said:


> not with aura


I cant get Aura for 100 miles from here



Wood511 said:


> Not with ben either. Seriously man...have you tried the stuff?
> 
> I did a tan (hopsack) over maroon a few months back with ben and if I had slow rolled it, it would have done it in one coat. The HO came in and asked why I was doing two coats halfway through the first coat. I was surprised that it hid that well, although it was flat over flat...so that helped. Egg over egg would have been two coats, but I have yet to run into anything where I've needed three.
> 
> I'm not saying it's not out there. Certain combo's could need three, but I just haven't run into that yet.


Yeah, but hopsack has a lot of pigment in it. It should cover well in Ace Hardware bases.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'ben'?



4ThGeneration said:


> No worries MON! Just do what I do.I explain what LH means to people and that low hyde paint does not cover well.I explain that we will do our best, but after our standard 2 coat we will charge per coat there after in the amount of ***.
> 
> I know home owners sometimes tell me they have a budget they can not go over, so I tell them I have a family that depends on my bottom line to survive and I cant bust that either.


Yep, pale yellow semi-gloss over a deeper yellow semi-gloss
In fact it was so pale that SW couldn't match the color because their bases are to dirty.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Bender said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by 'ben'?


http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-contractors/ben-low-voc-paint

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ben :thumbup: IMO one of the best products BM has come out with on the Gennex platform. Excellent cost/value.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

rjensen ptg said:


> OK, so the cust. wants deep colors (bdrms). deep plum & forest green. i get BM regal-matte... this stuff is somewhere between paint & water! seriously, 40 yrs, i have never opened a can of BM, to have it be that thin!!!
> 
> is this normal now? is it cause they are phasing out regal? should i have went w/ Ben, or ...
> 
> had i known, i would have spent the $ on aura. - i think that's their ploy!


UPDATE deep plum, 3 coats, looks great

forest green, 4th coat didn't cover. (btw, very small bdrm) so i bring what's left, 3/4 gallon to paint store. he opens it, says -yeah, that's pretty thin! he opens a new ultra deep base, its also thin, but not as thin. i said if it doesn't cover 5th coat... he says he'll comp me a gallon of aura.

well, guess what. rolled 2 walls, it starts to blister. AND, doesn't cover! now, i did 2 coats 1st day; 3rd coat 2 days later; 4th 3 days after that. then 5th next day. should have been enough time to recoat, no? i guess not w/ ultra deep bs pisspaint.

BTW- i did regal matte (regular-base) liv rm, dining rm, kitchen, hallways. one coat looked almost perfect (but did 2nd coat). so its only that ultra deep base - be afraid, be very afraid!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> UPDATE deep plum, 3 coats, looks great
> 
> forest green, 4th coat didn't cover. (btw, very small bdrm) so i bring what's left, 3/4 gallon to paint store. he opens it, says -yeah, that's pretty thin! he opens a new ultra deep base, its also thin, but not as thin. i said if it doesn't cover 5th coat... he says he'll comp me a gallon of aura.
> 
> ...



Yeah that sounds weird for sure, especially the blistering. Have the store check the batch #'s ( if they didnt already ), to make sure the can they opened in the store is a different batch # than the one you have. Have them comp you a gallon of Aura, they should be able to do that. :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> UPDATE deep plum, 3 coats, looks great
> 
> forest green, 4th coat didn't cover. (btw, very small bdrm) so i bring what's left, 3/4 gallon to paint store. he opens it, says -yeah, that's pretty thin! he opens a new ultra deep base, its also thin, but not as thin. i said if it doesn't cover 5th coat... he says he'll comp me a gallon of aura.
> 
> ...


Ultra deep base = aura, two coats and you're done, or 1 prime and 2 ben


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

update- (as if anyone cares at this point)

i got the 'comp.' aura gallon - forest green. 2 coats required to cover- over the same color! OY!... good thing it was a tiny room.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> update- (as if anyone cares at this point)
> 
> i got the 'comp.' aura gallon - forest green. 2 coats required to cover- over the same color! OY!... good thing it was a tiny room.


hmm.. Was there a sheen difference? Wondering why it needed two. Thanks for the update.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> update- (as if anyone cares at this point)
> 
> i got the 'comp.' aura gallon - forest green. 2 coats required to cover- over the same color! OY!... good thing it was a tiny room.


What cover did you use? Was it the roll, cut, or both that needed 2 coats?


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

1/2" nap, both needed 2 coats. maybe the sheen, but the color wasn't covering. oh well...


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

rjensen ptg said:


> 1/2" nap, both needed 2 coats. maybe the sheen, but the color wasn't covering. oh well...


Try a 3/8" next time. It seems the tighter shorter naps work better.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I once did a real deep base red over yellow walls in Aura - took 3 coats to cover. The remainder of the time it's hid well. For normal colors where normal paint will cover in 2 coats - why pay the additional expense?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> I once did a real deep base red over yellow walls in Aura - took 3 coats to cover. The remainder of the time it's hid well. For normal colors where normal paint will cover in 2 coats - why pay the additional expense?


Faster re-coat time, good touch-up, excellent burnish resistance, and Low VOC. :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> I once did a real deep base red over yellow walls in Aura - took 3 coats to cover. The remainder of the time it's hid well. For normal colors where normal paint will cover in 2 coats - why pay the additional expense?


Many deep base where 3 would be needed, aura needs only two. Had that last night getting a condo rushed, used the zero voc promar 200. needed two finish after base coat. I know aura woulda done it in 2. 
It was a very small accent wall so I kinda wanted to test the zero out anyway. 

auras fast recoat time does have value in alot of cases as well. 
I always used to scoff at aura for the same reasons Dan. I'm just saying sometimes its def worth it. Sometimes it might not be.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> I once did a real deep base red over yellow walls in Aura - took 3 coats to cover. The remainder of the time it's hid well. For normal colors where normal paint will cover in 2 coats - why pay the additional expense?


For two coats I see your point. Most of my Aura jobs have been one coat deals. No reds or yellows but just about everything else.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

*lolpromar200 low voc*

used the ultra deep base

1 base coat, and 3 finish coats

sticky, doesn't flow or level good

dries too fast, doesn't cover well (although not many in ultradeep do)

...but what do you expect from promar 200? I guess it would be the wrong assumption to expect great performance from it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Did it hatband?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Did it hatband?


Took 3 finish coats, plus a primer...i'd be surprised if it didnt.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Ultra deep is always a pita to work with in cheap paints, however sometimes its called for like in commercial work. I can deal with it being sticky and difficult to apply, but the finish has to be satisfactory. 

Four coats is unacceptable either way thou. :no:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

yeah it hatbanded. I coulda maybe got away with just cutting in instead of a whole 4th coat but, it was a small wall and these are good peoples and my name is on it


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Sometimes I'll run a strip of paper or 2" tape and (gently) jam the roller.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

The finish of this promar 200 zero is ok. If I had alot of wall to do with it, I'm pretty sure I'd opt for Aura to save a buttload of labor. I'd take 2 coats rather than 4 anyday.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Yea that looks pretty good for a $20 paint.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Yea that looks pretty good for a $20 paint.


Hey, give me a paint and I'll make it sing buddy


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Took 3 finish coats, plus a primer...i'd be surprised if it didnt.



Most of the times I see paint take more than two coats is because the paint store created the paint to work with the wrong base. (ie.- an ultra deep base color using a deep base because it was all that was in stock, or a real red base color being created with a deep base. ) Yea, you can match the color but it was not the right base for the job. IMO, I have yet to run into too many issues with the new zero voc 200. I would always prefer an ubber elite product, but 200 doesnt sling paint too bad and I have never had to run 3 plus a base. 

That sucks to hear TJ. Bad batch maybe?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Paradigmzz said:


> Most of the times I see paint take more than two coats is because the paint store created the paint to work with the wrong base. (ie.- an ultra deep base color using a deep base because it was all that was in stock, or a real red base color being created with a deep base. ) Yea, you can match the color but it was not the right base for the job. IMO, I have yet to run into too many issues with the new zero voc 200. I would always prefer an ubber elite product, but 200 doesnt sling paint too bad and I have never had to run 3 plus a base.
> 
> That sucks to hear TJ. Bad batch maybe?


I don't know. It was a ultra deep. If I had sprayed it, two coats would have been sufficient I'm sure, but was too small to do that for my taste. I could have masked the edges and just pushed the roller into the side walls but didn't want to do that. It wasn't a big deal, it was a small wall. Took 10 mins / coat after laying down tape lines.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

tj paint said:


> i don't know. It was a ultra deep. If i had sprayed it, two coats would have been sufficient i'm sure, but was too small to do that for my taste. I could have masked the edges and just pushed the roller into the side walls but didn't want to do that. It wasn't a big deal, it was a small wall. Took 10 mins / coat after laying down tape lines.


TAPE lines?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

rjensen ptg said:


> TAPE lines?


Yea tape lines. Just because you are proud about your "cutting skills" doesn't mean free hand is always the best method. I am so sick of looking at 95% of painters "good" cut ins. Anything requiring multiple coats and contrasting colors gets taped and sealed. 

I don't have the time nor the desire to put to chance the risk of an inferior end product with the high end clientele I work for. 

Go bag on a DIY'er that is blue taping a room to death. TJ is a bit smarter than that. His edges in the picture above look spot on.


This is new school painting my friend: utilizing skills that increase production, reduce time and create a better product.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Paradigmzz said:


> Yea tape lines. Just because you are proud about your "cutting skills" doesn't mean free hand is always the best method. I am so sick of looking at 95% of painters "good" cut ins. Anything requiring multiple coats and contrasting colors gets taped and sealed.
> 
> I don't have the time nor the desire to put to chance the risk of an inferior end product with the high end clientele I work for.
> 
> ...


:notworthy: Well said, my friend.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

just givin TJ a hard time. :jester:

tape vs freehand = new thread


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

rjensen ptg said:


> just givin TJ a hard time. :jester:
> 
> tape vs freehand = new thread



All good. :thumbup: Its actually an old thread. It is a theme that runs through a lot of threads. It is funny how battle lines are developed along both sides of this topic.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

The best covering paint I have used is the one componet epoxy egshell from SW. Reds and browns all cover very nicely. The epoxy egshell is close to looking like semi gloss and it touches up better than most paints I have ever used. I have touched up reds and browns without flashing. The next house I buy I will probably use it throughout the whole house.



TJ Paint said:


> Many deep base where 3 would be needed, aura needs only two. Had that last night getting a condo rushed, used the zero voc promar 200. needed two finish after base coat. I know aura woulda done it in 2.
> It was a very small accent wall so I kinda wanted to test the zero out anyway.
> 
> auras fast recoat time does have value in alot of cases as well.
> I always used to scoff at aura for the same reasons Dan. I'm just saying sometimes its def worth it. Sometimes it might not be.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

rjensen ptg said:


> just givin TJ a hard time. :jester:
> 
> tape vs freehand = new thread


That would be an interesting thread, and something that has never been done before on PT. :whistling2:


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> That would be an interesting thread, and something that has never been done before on PT. :whistling2:


do it, 'SLs' - i think i know were you stand.:thumbsup:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Pic sux but this is a frogtape job. Smooth wall which is pretty rare around here. Lines came out razor sharp:thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Very nice Dan.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

Bender said:


> Pic sux but this is a frogtape job. Smooth wall which is pretty rare around here. Lines came out razor sharp:thumbsup:


so dan, frog tape is worth the $$$$$$$$$$?

i just did a job w/blue tape and tape seal (new wood stairs w/ white sides)... i will have to touch-up lines... oh well!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

rjensen ptg said:


> so dan, frog tape is worth the $$$$$$$$$$?
> 
> i just did a job w/blue tape and tape seal (new wood stairs w/ white sides)... i will have to touch-up lines... oh well!


I don't think its a 'magic straight line maker' but I have good luck with it, even on texture. Or maybe I should say I have a lot less bleed with it on texture.

I think the more important thing is to dry brush the first coat.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Very nice Dan.


Thanks. Strange room. The gal does facial relaxation massage and stuff but there are 8 halogens in that 8x10 ceiling:blink:
Not very calming.


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