# Not a fan of tape but....



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I usually only tape off baseboards and freehand everything else, but as I grow my business I am wondering if using more tape would be a good idea since it helps to standardize the application process and get more consistent results regardless of who is doing the cutting in. I can teach someone to tape in far less time than it took me to learn to cut in well.

Any thoughts?


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

The only time i would use tape is when rolling out walls. I will run a strip over the lip of the base so the over spray doesn't get on the baseboard.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

I only use it to protect against over spray too. I'm thinking about using it for front doors though to make perfectly straight lines on the intersections & not have any paint gumming up on the overlaps. Never had a problem in the past till recently with 2 exterior doors.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I usually only tape off baseboards and freehand everything else, but as I grow my business I am wondering if using more tape would be a good idea since it helps to standardize the application process and get more consistent results regardless of who is doing the cutting in. I can teach someone to tape in far less time than it took me to learn to cut in well.
> 
> Any thoughts?


We use it quite a bit and I have one builder who uses us because of it. He's proud of the razor sharp lines acheived with tape, it make him (and us) look good. Generally do baseboards and the verticle trim on doors and windows for the higher end jobs.

Our system is to wipe the trim with a clean damp rag, somtimes followed with a clean rag to dry it if in a hurry. After the tape is applied we jam a rag in the corner and rub back and forth to make sure the edges are down.

When applying the paint, you still cannot load up on the taped surface.

Just my opinion, but I can get any level of painter to produce consistant results this way. As good as everybody tells me they are, nobody cuts as straight a line as the tape does.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> nobody cuts as straight a line as the tape does.


Blasphemy!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Bender said:


> Blasphemy!


Most good painters can paint an acceptable line, just not as straight as the tape. 

Here's the throwdown, if any of you Prima Donna's can, take a video and prove it, typing (like talk) is cheap 

:furious:

(not knocking you Bender, to most it is blasphemy, to me it's finished product and money)


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I like my cut lines better than my tape lines, assuming I am not having an off day. The main issue I have with tape is the line is not usually right in the corner just so, it is usually a little to far on the wall. The tape line can be razor straight, but it does not always look right to the eye.

The biggest thing about freehand is customers notice and comment on it, since most assume that tape is needed. It impresses them and most HO's can tape, but most cannot cut in.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

When I start finding perfectly straight walls maybe I'll consider using something "perfectly straight" as a crutch to cut lines

As I've yet to find a room that's true, I'll still keep cutting the lines to make up or smooth out the differences to make the room _look_ true


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

My..., my..are we starting to get defensive?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I did this room once with chair rails - and after I was basically done with the job - I had to go back and put on a 3rd and even 4th coat of trim paint - as the deep blue that was originally there bled through a primer and 2 topcoats. At that point I just taped up all the trim - and painted away - it took a while to take the tape off - as I especially didn't want to rip off the brand new wall paint. But I loved the results!

If I took on helpers - and dabbled a little more into the different tapes - as that was standard 'brown' masking tape - I believe you could get exceptional results, with little worry about the walls. I think that frog tape might fit the bill nicely!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dean

If you teach them to rely on tape from the beginning, they will never learn to cut. Clearly, there are two schools of thought, and I am most decidedly on the freehand cutting side, but all that aside...there are situations where taping is not possible or practical and you just plain have to cut. Exteriors for instance, many painters jam the siding paint into the edges of the corners and casings and run a roller over the faces. We cut all those little edges, and it would be an embarrassment to see tape all around the outside of a house. A competent painter really should be a good cutter. I start them on easy colors and cuts to build their confidence and skills, but we have made some pretty good cutters in 3-6 months. Granted, theres no comparison to those of us who have been cutting freehand for 20-25 years, but like George Z has said, we have to let go of a little bit of that perfection in order to grow a business.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Man we just keep bringing up old threads are we out of things to talk about? Tim, I figure you would post a link to the thread we everyone was arguing the same point... 



Your tape line is only as good as the straightness of the tape that was applied. I have seen tape line that are as wavy as a free hand..


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This thread has a different twist. Its not freehand vs tape, which do you prefer, its more about Dean trying to decide what to implement in his business for a procedure. Its a good question. And there are pros and cons in this case. For immediate impact, taping. For the big picture, take off those training wheels and ride.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I understand that the OP was not a free hand vs ? but you know where it will go


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> I understand that the OP was not a free hand vs ? but you know where it will go


:yes: Bikerboy issued the challenge. But of course we all know that no human could cut a line that looked as good as tape. :no:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

For new construction when we spray and back roll walls we use "easy-mask" to tape off casing sides .....razor sharp line ...2 hours to tape a average 3k home and countless hours saved cutting. Consistant results no matter who is tapping. Production. (spray right into it)

On repaints I have used "easy-mask" before ...but only if dealing with bad walls, trim and old caulking ...good way to achieve a straight line on a over caulked casing. It's kind of like a french cut on crown molding that has too much caulk. 

I never tape off base. We bring walls down over the top edge of all the base ...I make my painters do this. We then always recoat base.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> :yes: Bikerboy issued the challenge. But of course we all know that no human could cut a line that looked as good as tape. :no:


Bikerboy also admits that it is not an every occasion solution, or that it should supplant learning good skills. (or that we use it all the time) Never use it for ceilings, or exteriors (except to hold masking paper), but think it is ridiculous to let one's pride keep you from delivering the kind of excellence that some customers want. (even if it is a small group)

As far as "walls that aren't straight", who cares about the wall, I want the line at the trim to be straight. If the trim is that screwed up, then tape is not a solution, nor does the customer want that kind of perfection. Again, it is not for every job, because not every customer desires (or cares, or will pay for) it. I just have some who do, and we get positive feedback because of our methods. (which means more to the business than anything else)

It's really more of a post about our positive experiences using tape, to answer a question that was asked.

If you want to swell your chest and relive the either/or debates, go here:
http://www.painttalk.com/showthread.php?t=896&highlight=tape


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I never tape off base. We bring walls down over the top edge of all the base ...I make my painters do this. We then always recoat base.


I tape base to keep the spatter off of it, but we use 2" tape and you can roll right to it. Just have to leave it sticking out at a 90 degree angle to the floor.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> Bikerboy also admits that it is not an every occasion solution, or that it should supplant learning good skills. (or that we use it all the time) Never use it for ceilings, or exteriors (except to hold masking paper), but think it is ridiculous to let one's pride keep you from delivering the kind of excellence that some customers want. (even if it is a small group)
> 
> As far as "walls that aren't straight", who cares about the wall, I want the line at the trim to be straight. If the trim is that screwed up, then tape is not a solution, nor does the customer want that kind of perfection. Again, it is not for every job, because not every customer desires (or cares, or will pay for) it. I just have some who do, and we get positive feedback because of our methods. (which means more to the business than anything else)
> 
> ...


Biker

Its good that you have a method that pleases your clientele. Perfection is a relative and elusive term, so if you have hit on something that works for you, thats awesome.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> I tape base to keep the spatter off of it, but we use 2" tape and you can roll right to it. Just have to leave it sticking out at a 90 degree angle to the floor.


That's about as amatuer as your fantasy team ...hahahahahahaha


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That's about as amatuer as your fantasy team ...hahahahahahaha


That's a pretty good shot! :thumbup:

In eight weeks we will see what you say then.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Biker
> 
> Its good that you have a method that pleases your clientele. Perfection is a relative and elusive term, so if you have hit on something that works for you, thats awesome.


 
Only about half, we don't do it all the time. Don't want to mislead anybody that everything we do is high end jobs. (wish it was)


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

Has anybody tried a pencil? We use a pencil and line it along window/door casings, base and ceilings. I keep a pencil sharpener with me and keep the pencil point sharp as it wears quickly. It works well especially when the caulk job from the previous painter leaves a slightly rounded edge between the molding and the wall. The pencil line seems to divide this space evenly. The first cut will not be perfect. Your eye will be able to fill in the parts that are not exactly straight when cutting in the room the second time. I like it also because when your working with bright lights they tend to cast shadows in certain places along the molding and the pencil line takes care of this problem. I only use this method when cutting in deep colors. I also use a Corona 2&1/2" chinex sash brush. We used the wooster sash brushes for many years but had to find something else as the Woosters don't hold a good line with the new water born products. The chinex brush is very easy to clean as the paint even after a full day does not adhere to the bristles.I don't mean to knock Wooster they make excellent products and we use a number of them but the brushes don't seem to work too well for us anymore.

Sal


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> (not knocking you Bender, to most it is blasphemy, to me it's finished product and money)


No stress my brother
I was't trying to stir the $hit:no:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

salmangeri said:


> Has anybody tried a pencil? We use a pencil and line it along window/door casings, base and ceilings. I keep a pencil sharpener with me and keep the pencil point sharp as it wears quickly. It works well especially when the caulk job from the previous painter leaves a slightly rounded edge between the molding and the wall. The pencil line seems to divide this space evenly. The first cut will not be perfect. Your eye will be able to fill in the parts that are not exactly straight when cutting in the room the second time. I like it also because when your working with bright lights they tend to cast shadows in certain places along the molding and the pencil line takes care of this problem. I only use this method when cutting in deep colors. I also use a Corona 2&1/2" chinex sash brush. We used the wooster sash brushes for many years but had to find something else as the Woosters don't hold a good line with the new water born products. The chinex brush is very easy to clean as the paint even after a full day does not adhere to the bristles.I don't mean to knock Wooster they make excellent products and we use a number of them but the brushes don't seem to work too well for us anymore.
> 
> Sal


wooster (as does purdy) makes a Chinex also you may want to try that. But you usually can not go wrong with a corona.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

salmangeri said:


> Has anybody tried a pencil?
> Nope, always been curious to do so.
> I like it also because when your working with bright lights they tend to cast shadows in certain places along the molding and the pencil line takes care of this problem.
> I got one of those hats from Sears with the LED's in the brim. From that I upgraded to those clip on brim lights so that I am never cutting in my own shadow. I look like a geek but cut like a champ.


Hat lights


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## frankcanpaint (Apr 22, 2007)

*Tape? Yes for me*

I use 3m #2080, it's a thin blue 60 day tape.I have been using tape for about a year now. I use it for window, door verticals and top of baseboards. My work is noted for razor cut lines. Of course my ceiling lines are all handcut and also my inside/outside corners. So I can cut a straight line and have been for many a year, however that vertical tape line just looks sweet.. There is no excuse I.M.O. for *not* putting tape on straight and ending with a wavy line. If its only outside of vertical door and window trims plus the tops of baseboards that you tape then you can put that tape on pretty darn quick. I LIGHTLY put my tape on and I have a quart of zinnser 1-2-3 coloured to the trim colour. I quickly touch/seal the edge of the tape with a small brush, takes like 2 minutes to put on. After cutting the walls in to the tape i then generally remove the tape when the walls are dry. I can take the edge of the tape and walk away and just pull it off on an angle without lifting any paint. I.M.O. pressing the tape down with 5 in 1 can sometimes potentially lead to lifting paint especially if your trims are water based.
Also craftsmanship isn't an issue here since my trims are all brushed oil- one coat of oil primer followed with two topcoats of BM oil and all cut with penetrol so the trims look sprayed but show the vertical row of brushlines that my moneyed customers want to see. To sum it up I think for me the issue boils down to the end result/finished product not whether you are a purist or not . Letter writers initally resisted e-mail and also cell phones and even the automobile supposedly wasn't expected to win over. My clients want that razor line and are willing to pay someone to do it. It's a no brainer I.M.O. :yes:
Cheers
Frank


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## frankcanpaint (Apr 22, 2007)

*headlamps*

Quote:
Originally posted by tsunamicontract
I got one of those hats from Sears with the LED's in the brim. From that I upgraded to those clip on brim lights so that I am never cutting in my own shadow. I look like a geek but cut like a champ

I have been using a small headlamp from a mountaineering store. Really bright led's and lasts for a long time before changing batteries . Haven't had to worry about either shadows or being blinded by the light. I see plumbers, cabinet guys and many other trades with them on sites I have worked. Haven't been laughed at yet?
frank


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Interesting thread. I read the title and thought, "OH BOY, I can opine on the evils of tape and the virtues of brush", then Scott reminded us what Dean had actually asked, and I read all the posts and realized all my thoughts had been expressed by others.

But at this point I just like to say my mind has been alterterred about the REASONS folks here use tape. I've seen tape used _mostly_ by hacks who can't brush a straight line, hell they can't even lay tape correctly. It's been a crutch for crippled of talent.

So, I'm impressed that the pro's here use tape not as a short cut, but as a tool to make the job better. And as with every tool, there are times to use it and times not to.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> Interesting thread. I read the title and thought, "OH BOY, I can opine on the evils of tape and the virtues of brush", then Scott reminded us what Dean had actually asked, and I read all the posts and realized all my thoughts had been expressed by others.
> 
> But at this point I just like to say my mind has been alterterred about the REASONS folks here use tape. I've seen tape used _mostly_ by hacks who can't brush a straight line, hell they can't even lay tape correctly. It's been a crutch for crippled of talent.
> 
> So, I'm impressed that the pro's here use tape not as a short cut, but as a tool to make the job better. And as with every tool, there are times to use it and times not to.


 
OH MY GOD!....that _*almost*_ sounds like a concession! Say it ain't so.:thumbup:​ 
(just kidding...)​


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> OH MY GOD!....that _*almost*_ sounds like a concession! Say it ain't so.:thumbup:​
> (just kidding...)​


OK, it ain't so ! :no:


But seriously, I do often concede to diverse methods supported by decent logic or sound reasons. 

-Bill


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## Truecraft (Oct 30, 2008)

Blow-and-go guys freehand their rental apartment repaints etc. High-end custom painters use tape to produce perfect lines for their clients who are willing to pay for craftsmanship. Decide what kind of painter you want to be. Personally, I approve of all the guys freehanding. It makes my tape lines look that much better and allows me to charge higher rates. Any guy who says his freehand line looks better than a real caulked tape line has been spraying too much laquer without a mask.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Truecraft said:


> Blow-and-go guys freehand their rental apartment repaints etc. High-end custom painters use tape to produce perfect lines for their clients who are willing to pay for craftsmanship. Decide what kind of painter you want to be. Personally, I approve of all the guys freehanding. It makes my tape lines look that much better and allows me to charge higher rates. Any guy who says his freehand line looks better than a real caulked tape line has been spraying too much laquer without a mask.


Same here, if the home is older there no need for tape, but if the home is new, with new caulking and high end, the tape comes out. I would not let anyone working for me to free hand base on a nice new house.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You two can't be serious? Can you? A name like true craft and you have no craftsmanship? 

We Vermont on this one!


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> You two can't be serious? Can you? A name like true craft and you have no craftsmanship?
> 
> We Vermont on this one!


If the truth were know there is probably more that just two of us.Every home is different and if a painter uses the same approach on every home, it's just dumb pride and stupity at his side.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Now were talking.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its times like this when I lose a bit more faith in our trade.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This is like Twilight Zone or something. So, on the planet you live on do pro painters use Wagner Powershot cup sprayers, power rollers, and those dorky little paint edger tools?

Someone please set up a poll of pt members. If there is a number of larger than say 10% who rely on tape for their cutting, I will enthusiastically cancel my membership. 

And John, I'm not sure if you are a builder or painter or both, but you couldnt be much more wrong in your assessment, at least according to my experience on the planet I live on (which is high end custom residential new construction.) I can assure you that painters who tape would be laughed off the project.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Truecraft said:


> Blow-and-go guys freehand their rental apartment repaints etc. High-end custom painters use tape to produce perfect lines for their clients who are willing to pay for craftsmanship. Decide what kind of painter you want to be. Personally, I approve of all the guys freehanding. It makes my tape lines look that much better and allows me to charge higher rates. Any guy who says his freehand line looks better than a real caulked tape line has been spraying too much laquer without a mask.


Funny. Because you can't cut straight lines you choose to insult those who can? I'm not saying tape will not give good results, as I use when need be, but to suggest I couldn't cut lines as good as you as you use tape is a joke. Not to try start a girly arguement here, but this job I cut comes to mind when reading this, as the colors were pretty different so flaws will show. No tape just a 2 1/2 Wooster. Keep on taping... Make me not look like a DIYer. :thumbsup:










I especially love when the customers are amazed by how sharp my lines look and I don't use tape. Makes them gain alot of respect towards you as professional & understand why they're paying you to do it. Anybody can tape a line... Now pick what kind of painter you want to be.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Its times like this when I lose a bit more faith in our trade.



Scott, am I reading these last few entries correctly? They are SPRAYING them there cuts ? Both free hand and with tape? How does one free hand spray a line?

Someone stated the state of the up and coming cub painter would no longer know how to use a brush. Are we witnessing this transformation ??

-Bill


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Scott, am I reading these last few entries correctly? They are SPRAYING them there cuts ? Both free hand and with tape?
> 
> Someone stated the state of the up and coming cub painter would no longer know how to use a brush. Are we witnessing this transformation ??
> 
> -Bill


Bill

Thats really up to us as a trade. If we allow misinformation to be passed on uncorrected in this and other forums and media, then you betcha it will catch on. 

For the record:

_*TAPE IS FOR: SPATTER PROTECTION, BLIND SPOTS, STRIPES, HOMEOWNERS AND OTHERS WHO HAVE NO BRUSH CONTROL.*_


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This is like Twilight Zone or something. So, on the planet you live on do pro painters use Wagner Powershot cup sprayers, power rollers, and those dorky little paint edger tools?


Say what Monte Man? Them dorky little gizmos work super. I zip around window and door frames--one in each hand-meet in the middle--done-they look great--are fast--throw away and definitely the new age tool for edging--just look at the ads for these babies Scott.

JTP


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

JTP said:


> Say what Monte Man? Them dorky little gizmos work super. I zip around window and door frames--one in each hand-meet in the middle--done-they look great--are fast--throw away and definitely the new age tool for edging--just look at the ads for these babies Scott.
> 
> JTP


as in this ?

https://www.officialtvwebsite.com/p...vanced&OVADID=29358256512&OVKWID=227878776512


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> as in this ?
> 
> https://www.officialtvwebsite.com/po...D=227878776512


Dead Link Bill--try again.

JTP


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

JTP said:


> Dead Link Bill--try again.
> 
> JTP


https://www.officialtvwebsite.com/p...vanced&OVADID=29358256512&OVKWID=227878776512


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> This is like Twilight Zone or something. So, on the planet you live on do pro painters use Wagner Powershot cup sprayers, power rollers, and those dorky little paint edger tools?
> 
> Someone please set up a poll of pt members. If there is a number of larger than say 10% who rely on tape for their cutting, I will enthusiastically cancel my membership.
> 
> And John, I'm not sure if you are a builder or painter or both, but you couldnt be much more wrong in your assessment, at least according to my experience on the planet I live on (which is high end custom residential new construction.) I can assure you that painters who tape would be laughed off the project.


So you are saying that you use (free hand technique) with accent walls, neutral base colors, against white base on a new home?


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Truth is, it is the end result not the process.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

JNLP said:


> https://www.officialtvwebsite.com/p...vanced&OVADID=29358256512&OVKWID=227878776512


Thanks my friend JNLP-- For those DIYers who snuck up on Paint Talk--"When you're down and troubled and need a helping hand, and nothing, nothing is going right (do I hear Carole King?)"--get yourself some tape. Make sure you lay it down very hard and fast--now use Behr super-superduper and slap it on the wall and baseboard. Next--cut the baseboard with your trim color--make sure that's super-duper latex semi-gloss--let the walls and base dry properly according to manu. label instructions--come back and pull your tape off by carefully removing at an angle and away from the wall. Now--notice the ragged edge where your fresh paint has peeled away from both the wall and the baseboard. You're done--in more than a couple of ways.

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> So you are saying that you use (free hand technique) with accent walls, neutral base colors, against white base on a new home?


Yes, and my employees do as well.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

In fact we do it with deep base colors into white case and base every day. Here's how:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

To be honest, all the other painters I work with and talk to in my area including high end work use tape for their lines. I am sure I am not the only one in my area that prefers free hand, but we are few and far between. At 32 years old, I am already a dinosaur.

Although I will tape the base for roller spatter unlike VP's picture above.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Same here, if the home is older there no need for tape, but if the home is new, with new caulking and high end, the tape comes out. I would not let anyone working for me to free hand base on a nice new house.


This is the easiest cut that exists. If you can't make this cut perfectly and consistently, you should use tape. I can make it so I freehand.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

GMack said:


> This is the easiest cut that exists. If you can't make this cut perfectly and consistently, you should use tape. I can make it so I freehand.


Indeed you can. Here's how:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> So you are saying that you use (free hand technique) with accent walls, neutral base colors, against white base on a new home?


95% yes. Some houses the lines are pretty fudged up. Would have to keep playing the back & forth game with colors to get it perfect so I'll just tape it up.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Well then if that's what you like to do then thats great, I just do it a different way. sometimes I do it your way, sometimes I don't, it all depends like the job.
I'm happy with my way and you are happy with yours.Life is good.Just don't be hatin, because it's not worth. I'm sure you do a great job, and I do a great job. So like I said it's the finished product that counts.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

GMack said:


> This is the easiest cut that exists. If you can't make this cut perfectly and consistently, you should use tape. I can make it so I freehand.


New homes are what taught me to cut straight & fast. Lines are usually perfect, the tip of your brush just falls into that little grove & makes for a perfect line. :yes:


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Stripes taped, ceiling cut.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice GMack, I dig those colors.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> I would not let anyone working for me to free hand base on a nice new house.


 
Hire a painter then.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> If the truth were know there is probably more that just two of us.Every home is different and if a painter uses the same approach on every home, it's just dumb pride and stupity at his side.


 
"dont be hatin" ??????

look at this post ..... dumb pride and stupity ..( is stupity a word?) Easy does it slick. Those dumb painters might have a thing or two to teach you about business and painting. 

By the way ....sweet rims :jester:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Hold on-- I believe strongly both ways--no sitting on the fence for me--

If you can make a straight line with tape effectively and well--why not use it? I see no shame at all in using methods that work well for each individual. My tongue and cheek scenario for the diyer group does not apply to pros here--we all should know how to use tape if we are going to use it.

Now with that said--free hand cutting has always been a marker indicating good craftsmanship. It is a required skill for every painter. It seems to me that free hand cutting requires less work and clean up. I venture a guess many are uncomfortable about hand cutting because they have not performed the hours and hours of work required to get acquainted with even the basics. Those painters here who have the skill level to cut crisp 180ies free hand will not start taping those lines.

The tapers will keep on taping with great results too. Should we insist my way or the highway on this issue? 

JTP


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

GMack said:


> Stripes taped, ceiling cut.
> View attachment 2159


While it looks nice, you really needed tape for those lines? C'mon man learn how to paint. :laughing:


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

Bender said:


> Nice GMack, I dig those colors.


Thanks Bender. My customers picked them out by themselves. Their place should be in some home decor mag, immaculate.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> At 32 years old, I am already a dinosaur.
> 
> Although I will tape the base for roller spatter unlike VP's picture above.


I'm a dinosaur too Dean. My employees actually insisted that we stop taping for spatter because they considered it a waste of tape when they have damp rags in their pockets to wipe them down with.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Of course tape is used in one way or in other but to come out the way this guy and true craft did was just opening a can of worms.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

JNLP said:


> While it looks nice, you really needed tape for those lines? C'mon man learn how to paint. :laughing:


I was only kidding . . . We cut the whole thing freehand:whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Of course tape is used in one way or in other but to come out the way this guy and true craft did was just opening a can of worms.


Osama Bin Laden could start a thread here claiming that the best formula for deep red paint is human blood, complete with pictures and a video of himself cutting a line with his product, screaming "death to America" as he cut, and there would be those who would not only support his right to his opinion, but would agree with his practice and pm him to commend him for his courage in posting in the face of us radical old fashioned painters.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Sorry guy's if anyone got insulted, I did not mean to sound that way, sometimes things don't sound as good on the internet as they sound inside your head.I'm sure all you guy do a fantastic job or you would not want to continue talking about painting all the time.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Anybody who calls himself a J-man should be able to ace a line without tape. Unfortunately this is a major problem with being an "unskilled" trade.
My freehand.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

*base*



vermontpainter said:


> I'm a dinosaur too Dean. My employees actually insisted that we stop taping for spatter because they considered it a waste of tape when they have damp rags in their pockets to wipe them down with.


I only started taping base because the Graham paint stuck so much better and quickly compared to the previous version of BM products. As soon as the paint was dry, the Graham would not want to come off but the Moore stuff could be wiped off hours later.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Sorry guy's if anyone got insulted, I did not mean to sound that way, sometimes things don't sound as good on the internet as they sound inside your head.I'm sure all you guy do a fantastic job or you would not want to continue talking about painting all the time.


I'm not insulted by you. Only those who call themselves a better painter than somebody else cause they use tape. :thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Sorry guy's if anyone got insulted, I did not mean to sound that way, sometimes things don't sound as good on the internet as they sound inside your head.I'm sure all you guy do a fantastic job or you would not want to continue talking about painting all the time.


John you're right, we all need to remember that there is room for misinterpretation here. 

Dean, we cut base last.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Osama Bin Laden could start a thread here claiming that the best formula for deep red paint is human blood, complete with pictures and a video of himself cutting a line with his product, screaming "death to America" as he cut, and there would be those who would not only support his right to his opinion, but would agree with his practice and pm him to commend him for his courage in posting in the face of us radical old fashioned painters.


HMM--that's the spirit Monte Man--Graphic-In Your Face-Take it or leave it. No room for any misunderstanding on this one. I applaude your decibel level. And F---k Bin Laden!:thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OK, before things even start to get heated and demeaning. There are definitely a few camps here. Each of us know which campfire we cook our marshmallows at. 

Some like their marshmallows turned slowly until golden brown, some like them flamed and blackened. And we all know those who don't like our way are hacks, frauds, and overly prideful.

We ain't gonna change the other. If a newbie comes on and asks which is better, we should tell them why we like our marshmallows gently crafted to a golden brown or why we like the time saving technique and charred flavor of a marshmallow stuffed into the center of the flame. But please, let's not make any judgement of character, even though we know who's a hack and a DIY


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

What's a guy got to do for a good fight around here?


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> OK, before things even start to get heated and demeaning. There are definitely a few camps here. Each of us know which campfire we cook our marshmallows at.
> 
> Some like their marshmallows turned slowly until golden brown, some like them flamed and blackened. And we all know those who don't like our way are hacks, frauds, and overly prideful.
> 
> We ain't gonna change the other. If a newbie comes on and asks which is better, we should tell them why we like our marshmallows gently crafted to a golden brown or why we like the time saving technique and charred flavor of a marshmallow stuffed into the center of the flame. But please, let's not make any judgement of character, even though we know who's a hack and a DIY


Knew I liked you--now I remember why Bill.

JTP


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

and speaking of striped rooms, many many years ago, I was asked to design and paint simple graphics in a boy's room. I chose concentric semi-circles on three walls. I had to draw them with a pencil on a string and a nail as a compass. Needless to say, tape could not be used for those lines.

IMO, one really needs to be proficient at free hand cuts in order to accomplish all tasks that may be thrown at you. 

And, conversly, one needs to know how to apply tape for the times that it is the only way to achieve an end product. (although I've never seen it as the "only" way :jester: )


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> What's a guy got to do for a good fight around here?



Come up to Patriots Place wearing Jets or NY Giants gear. I'll meet you in the parking lot :thumbup:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*Lets Duke it Out NEPS*

Lets Duke it Out NEPS--


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I think this is a better depiction of US ALL here :


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Must be sumthinidawaterbill

JTP


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

JTP said:


> Must be sumthinidawaterbill
> 
> JTP


just a little :


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> Each of us know which campfire we cook our marshmallows at.
> 
> Some like their marshmallows turned slowly until golden brown, some like them flamed and blackened.


Thats right. Its all about diversity.
Whereas Bills marshmallow might be soft, mushy and unusable, mine tends to be the marshmallow of choice at most social gatherings.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Well, it's either the 99 dollar bedroom, or the whether to use tape or not that always gets us.I get tripped up everytime.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I too am a free hand kind of guy. And anybody working for me learns to free hand also. While I hesitate to knock anyone's abilities, I fear that the ones who 'have' to use tape are losing the 'craft' from the craftsmanship of the trade. I have huge respect for guys who can spray most anything, and do it well, because I can't and don't. But I recently heard another painter on another forum who has painted for years (mostly apartments, condos, exteriors and such) admit that he still was learning to use a brush and roller. My first thought was "Holy Crap, that guy ain't no painter." But unfortunately, in this day and age, the term "painter" is being defined by a whole new set of terms and skills than what I was taught and practice. Is this wrong? I'm not the guy to say, but if you came to me and said you were a _professional_ painter, yet couldn't handle a brush correctly, we wouldn't be seeing eye-to-eye at all.

Carry on.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

And I'd like to say that those who say a straight line _can't_ be achieved _without _tape, well, those are some mighty tall words. My first instinct would be to say that those who claim that are the ones who _can't_ get a straight line _without_ tape. Same goes for windows. If you need to use masking of any kind while brushing a frenchy, learn to use a brush like a tool, not a club.

Some of my guys on a job last year, all cutting damn good lines with no tape:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

There is just a certain beauty, style, and form when a brush is used properly.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> There is just a certain beauty, style, and form when a brush is used properly.


I'll spot her ladder any day - ALL day.



I once had a partner who claimed it was faster to to paint panes sloppy and razor them clean later.

GRRRRRRR! :thumbdown: :cursing: :furious:

I also know a local "professional" paperhanger who don't wipe strips clean as they're hung.

But then again not everyone agrees with my techniques :whistling2:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I once had a partner who claimed it was faster to to paint panes sloppy and razor them clean later.


I have heard that is the way it is done sometimes down in the city( Washington,DC) spray the interior windows and hire a bunch of( insert noun here) to clean then cheap.


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## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

I know who I will call next time to do my wallpapering


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## mjkpainting (Feb 12, 2008)

*What type of tape?????*

Just curious- What tape do you guys use. I was used to buying the blue 3M 2090 and by mistake I grabbed the 3M 2080. Apparently the 2080 it has a much lower adhesive so the tape didn't stick well to the semi gloss trim. Of course we were painting red??? NIGHTMARE

Anyone ever use that Frog tape???? What's that about and when would it be appropriate to use it???


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## mjkpainting (Feb 12, 2008)

I learned how to paint from a real old school guy (my cousin). He said taping trim for cutting in purposes only wastes time and the tape is expensive. He said I should be good enough to cut in a room twice as fast as I could tape it. So, I've been on my own now for about 6 years I never used to use tape with the exception of hanging plastic, spraying, or taping those hard to get areas.

A few months ago we painted a dark brown color and I told my partner to tape the trim. The lines came out a hell of lot crisper than I could ever do. It looked very proffessional and I think it may have even saved some time. I have been taping trim ever since.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> There is just a certain beauty, style, and form when a brush is used properly.


I agree. That photo would make a nice wallpaper. Got it in 1440x900? :w00t:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

JNLP said:


> I agree. That photo would make a nice wallpaper. Got it in 1440x900? :w00t:


Yes I do. :thumbsup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> Yes I do. :thumbsup:


send him the one she sent you  :thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

salmangeri said:


> I know who I will call next time to do my wallpapering


I hope you mean me Sal, and thank you if you do. But chrisn is right up 81 from you. 
Rumors are that he is more than competent and willing to work. 

Not that I won't travel, but I feel uncomfortable working in an NGPP brother's neighborhood without the courtesy of giving them first refusal.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Bill, I think he meant this one:










And for the love of GOD will you either shrink that monkey picture or just plain delete it. It's really screwing up my reply box.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> There is just a certain beauty, style, and form when a brush is used properly.


I see no lines .....:brows::bangin:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> And for the love of GOD will you either shrink that monkey picture or just plain delete it. It's really screwing up my reply box.


Don't worry, just a few more posts and it will be on another page. 

I wish I had that control over a hot link. Large pix are annoying.

BTW, how many MB's do you have of Mega Beth ?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> But I recently heard another painter on another forum who has painted for years (mostly apartments, condos, exteriors and such) admit that he still was learning to use a brush and roller. My first thought was "Holy Crap, that guy ain't no painter." But unfortunately, in this day and age, the term "painter" is being defined by a whole new set of terms and skills than what I was taught and practice. Is this wrong? I'm not the guy to say, but if you came to me and said you were a _professional_ painter, yet couldn't handle a brush correctly, we wouldn't be seeing eye-to-eye at all.


I was thinking the same thing when i was reading that. You are right so many people are dependent on the spray gun.


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## Truecraft (Oct 30, 2008)

All these pictures are of smooth wall and must be East Coast. Of course you can cut a great line with a brush on a slick wall. But out West, all the walls are heavy knockdown texture. Understand the problem there? I was simply standing up for tapers, not knocking you old freehanders. There is a quick method for completely eliminating any bleed-through on tape. I will guarantee I can tape cut a heavy knockdown texture room faster than you can freehand it with better results. Anyways, I can see this forum is kind of a closed club for a few old friends to rip apart anyone who disagrees with them. I thought it was more of an open place for people to discuss their methods. I've learned my lesson and will keep my ideas to myself. Good luck to all of you.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

You have this place all wrong. No one really likes each other or themselves. No one gets along and no one agrees on anything. Its a wonder people keep showing up. Please dont go.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

I can see this forum is kind of a closed club for a few old friends to rip apart anyone who disagrees with them. I thought it was more of an open place for people to discuss their methods. I've learned my lesson and will keep my ideas to myself. Good luck to all of you.[/quote]

Truecraft,

Unless I missed something, different methods WERE discussed in this thread. There was, very simply, some disagreement as to which method was better. Are you really taking your 3-m and going home?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

This whole thread has been all about technician mentality! Who cares what is a better job?!?! I can probably cut faster and nicer than most of you - but if tape will give me an 80 out of a 100 and allow me to grow my business - then guess what I will be using tape! When you are making a living charging a measly 500-600 bills for a bedroom repaint - don't get caught up on ultimate luxury quality painting - you are there to provide a service, give them a decent product and get paid.

I'd prefer to see labor rates in this thread - and possible advantages of systemizing your company such that you can get lower quality cheaper help and get good results. McDonalds is huge succesful company with basically teenage incompetent help. Those that wish to keep these threads about 'quality' and 'professionalism' - you are missing the point. Getting a guy that cuts beautiful lines is a craftsman - and many business models can no longer support having 'craftsmen' on board. Heck with my painting skills - I wouldn't want to work less than $25/hr for someone else.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> a measly 500-600 bills for a bedroom repaint -


5-600 bucks is measly for a bedroom repaint? maybe if you have a lot of prep or cleaning or retexturing and such. if i could get 5-6 big ones for just a re paint id do 4 a week and be a happy man.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Truecraft said:


> All these pictures are of smooth wall and must be East Coast. Of course you can cut a great line with a brush on a slick wall. But out West, all the walls are heavy knockdown texture. Understand the problem there? I was simply standing up for tapers, not knocking you old freehanders. There is a quick method for completely eliminating any bleed-through on tape. I will guarantee I can tape cut a heavy knockdown texture room faster than you can freehand it with better results. Anyways, I can see this forum is kind of a closed club for a few old friends to rip apart anyone who disagrees with them. I thought it was more of an open place for people to discuss their methods. I've learned my lesson and will keep my ideas to myself. Good luck to all of you.


 
It's too bad. Your two posts were informative and enlightening. Maybe if you explained the substrate on the first post more of us would of agreed with you. Take care and happy taping.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I wouldnt think of using tape on a repaint. I do use it for new construction. We use easy mask tape to tape off the side of casings ..cut in ceiling, crown, bottom of windows and we spray into the tape ...back roll and pop the tape off. Its a paper tape that comes from 2inches to 1 foot. I prefer the 6inch type. You get a perfectly straight line and is great for production NC painting. 

Right method for the right job.

There is nothing wrong with being a technician and a craftsman. You can be both a tech and a successful business man running several crews. Those that cant do both use it as an excuse that it cant or doesnt need to be done.


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