# GARDZ vs. primer on bare drywall



## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

i was hellbent on sealing all of the drywall in my new place with GARDZ rather than using primer on bare drywall, then just painting directly with 2 coats of aura. everyone is trying to talk me out of using GARDZ and pushing the primer on me. hmmm. why...


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

What primer?


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> What primer?


Exactly.....


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Use a waterbased primer. Then sand the drywall before painting.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

This will be interesting


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I would prime with the Gardz, lightly scuffle it, and apply the Aura.


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

ProWallGuy said:


> I would prime with the Gardz, lightly scuffle it, and apply the Aura.


well that's what i was planning on doing.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Not scuffle, scuff. Damn auto correct.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

i undercoat bare rock with flat ceiling white then another coat for ceilings an closets then 2 coats of whatever finish for the walls .....DONE


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Jenni, I will say that Guards can be difficult to work with as it is so runny. If you decide to use regular primer go with PPG 6-2. I've been using it for years and its a great product.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Jenni,

I am not sure why you want to seal with Gardz, not that I think it is a wrong choice, just wondering about your reasoning. 

If you do have a good reason for it, as Paul says, it is difficult to apply. To make it easier, use a MICROFIBER roller cover. Not a cheap one (I found out the hard way). I use the Whizz brand and they are very adequate. Then load it, and roll UP, pooling the gardz between wall and roller. The microfiber sleeve will hold the Gardz better than other sleeves, but still roll slow and UP. 

Speaking of microfiber covers, I went to a local paint store in Wellesley MA, (C&T) which has always had the reputation as being a good and knowlegable place. I was first surprised they did not carry Gardz (but their stores in Dedham and Natick do) and when I asked for a microfiber cover, the guy pointed to the Ben Moore *Aura* cover (dark purple wrapper). NO WHERE on it did it say "Microfiber", nor did it look like a microfiber. So I bought a cheap one. It shed a bit - useable, but still infuriating. Looking on line, I see the BM microfiber cover looks like this:










So be careful when a store drone recommends a specific item. Read the label. Better to insult his/her intelligence than buying the wrong product. 

For those in the area, I now no longer will go to C&T in Wellesley. Hometown Paint & Hardware (fka Town Paint) & Debsan in Natick or Babel's & Sh Wm in Needham will get my business in that area.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This isnt rocket science. Use PVA on drywall and backroll.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

DELETED

Ole, the ice just got thinner - Bill


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Jenni, it depends on who your paint dealer is. You can get regular drywall primer from SW pretty cheap, and it does what it's supposed to do. I've never used Gardz. But from the sound of what the other guys are saying, it seems like it will be a wasted extra effort.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Jenni, just remember if you use Aura vs their preferred method that u risk no help in the event something goes wrong because they can say u didn't follow directions. 

Or any paint.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> This isnt rocket science. Use PVA on drywall and backroll.


On a house right now with PVA and paint from same company over new board. 2 coats of paint. Should I count the present issues for why I'm on this job looking at their walls another painter applied? Or leave this one alone?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> On a house right now with PVA and paint from same company over new board. 2 coats of paint. Should I count the present issues for why I'm on this job looking at their walls another painter applied? Or leave this one alone?


I've never had a issue in a commercial application. Never. We dont have drywall houses here, everything is plaster. I have had countless issues with any SW primer over new plaster. Mostly having the scratch coat flashing throughout. I have had great success with SuperSpec undercoater/primer (253). IMO the best primer for rock we use.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I've never had a issue in a commercial application. Never. We dont have drywall houses here, everything is plaster. I have had countless issues with any SW primer over new plaster. Mostly having the scratch coat flashing throughout. I have had great success with SuperSpec undercoater/primer (253). IMO the best primer for rock we use.


Really, is it all homes or just a certain market/level? Why plaster instead of drywall?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

RCP said:


> Really, is it all homes or just a certain market/level? Why plaster instead of drywall?


Mostly a regional thing. Plaster is viewed as a higher end wall product by this market.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Back to Jenni- If you are going to an eggshell, gardz is good because it makes a nice even sealed wall that has good holdout. Flat- use any of the above.
I like to mix 1/4- 1/2 paint into the gardz to give it a little color and also thickens it up a bit and make it easier to handle. For basic priming it still has enough gardz in it to do the job.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Can't aura be used on bare drywall and seal pretty well? I heard it can, but never have. I've always primed bare drywall.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

yes, gardz will work.

are you trying to re-invent the wheel?


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## crazyson2001 (Jan 3, 2010)

Gardz is cool stuff. I never used it before reading about it on here. Now I use it frequently, in particular on walls that get a lot of critical lighting. It is a cheap insurance policy to ensure you get good holdout.

I will second the comment on it being slower to apply though. Takes some getting used to as it is water-like consistency. Also, don't believe the soap and warm water cleanup. Once that stuff gets a bit tacky, its hard to clean off tools.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

yes- but a 60+ a gal, why? Here is a good time to use 50/50 with Gardz- great distance and the Aura will give it a ton of color.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

BrushJockey said:


> yes- but a 60+ a gal, why? Here is a good time to use 50/50 with Gardz- great distance and the Aura will give it a ton of color.


You guys mix gardz with regular waterborne paint?

I'm all for playing home chemist, and I know paperhangers who mix Shieldz with Gardz (Shardz) because they were (supposedly) assured by the big Z that they are made with the same resins, BUT I would be leary of mixing Aura, or other waterbornes without being educated as to the compatibility. 

I would LOVE to mix Gardz with my favorite wallpaper prep coat (Swing Wallpaper Prep Coat), but I would also hate to be responsible for any possible failure.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Just add a cup of cornstarch Bill.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

You should reference the product data sheet, it is important to maintain manufacture warranty. Aura does not spec a primer just 2 coats finish. 


> Primer/Finish Systems
> Aura® Matte Finish is self priming on most surfaces. On bare substrates two coats are required; previously painted surfaces can be finished with 1 or 2 coats. Special Note: For certain deep colors, Aura® Color Foundation must be used to achieve maximum hide and the desired topcoat color. Consult your retailer.
> Wood and engineered wood products: Primer: For non-bleeding woods, use Fresh Start® All-Purpose 100% Acrylic Primer (N023) or 100% Acrylic Superior Primer (046). For bleeding woods such as cedar and redwood, use Fresh Start® All-Purpose Alkyd Primer (024) Finish: 1 or 2 coats Aura® Matte Finish.
> Plaster/Wallboard: Primer/Finish: 1 or 2 coats of Aura® Matte Finish.
> ...


 Aura Product Information


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Isn't Gardz a specialty primer, and isn't it a clear pigmentless product? Why would you spend good money as well as lose the ability to get some pigment on the wall?????

I don't know what cheap a$$ sheetrock they apply in Cleveland - but I've never seen an issue with pva on drywall. We have mostly veneer plaster in New England, and trust me there are issues you can't believe with the stuff. Sheetrock is easy - heck we all use to use ceiling paint back when it was cheap as primer, never had a problem.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Just a a cup of cornstarch Bill.


That one went WAY over my head. Enlighten me, I need a giggle. :thumbsup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

This is the house we got called out to look at today. Painted by another paint contractor. We not only receive tons of calls on this but we are frequently emailed on it over the years. It is extremely common and noticeable in the majority of paint finishes we get our eyes on and it always comes down the the primer, always. Not only is this house a mess, it needs repainted and its brand spankin new. Sucks to be that guy. He also has adhesion issues where blue tape pulls the stuff right off. 

Its 1 PVA primer 2 eggshell



We provide solutions when other product and company recommendations fail.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> That one went WAY over my head. Enlighten me, I need a giggle. :thumbsup:


I should have said ADD a cup of cornstarch. It thickens up soup & gravy.....


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I should have said ADD a cup of cornstarch. It thickens up soup & gravy.....


I get it :jester:

Or buy some Draw-Tite No Run . :thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Seems like you can't throw a dead cat in Cleveland without hitting some poor painter who doesnt know what he is doing and needs a bail out. 

Jack, you gotta start getting to these guys before they spread any paint.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> This is the house we got called out to look at today. Painted by another paint contractor. We not only receive tons of calls on this but we are frequently emailed on it over the years. It is extremely common and noticeable in the majority of paint finishes we get our eyes on and it always comes down the the primer, always. Not only is this house a mess, it needs repainted and its brand spankin new. Sucks to be that guy. He also has adhesion issues where blue tape pulls the stuff right off.
> 
> Its 1 PVA primer 2 eggshell
> 
> ...


Why is it we use to use ceiling paint with no problems? Drywall primer has less pigment and more resins, it's referred to in teh industry as more of a pigmented sealer than a primer. Maybe the products your competition uses is cheap crap? I could get better results than that with one coat of tinted pva and one topcoat of Regal or Accolade. The adhesion issues has more to do with the amount of dust that's on those walls after the drywallers have sanded the mud down. I've always seen tons of dust with those jobs - are those guys even backrolling - or is that primer just being sprayed and left alone?


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

1 coat of pva backrolled looks better than that,,,,those guys are some real winners!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

It's another episode of "The Phantom Paint Failure", and the mystery machine is going to JP's to investigate...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> It's another episode of "The Phantom Paint Failure", and the mystery machine is going to JP's to investigate...


No, TJ, Plainpainter drives the Mystery Machine. Otherwise, yes, another mystery is afoot.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Jenni, I am stuck in my ways I guess, I would use the 6-2 that paul suggested and then two coats of topcoat.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Is there anything more basic than priming and painting new drywall?

I think we should have a conference on this pronto. Get this painting thing figured out...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Do you guys sponge down new drywall before priming or gardzing? Just curious.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

jenni said:


> i was hellbent on sealing all of the drywall in my new place with GARDZ rather than using primer on bare drywall, then just painting directly with 2 coats of aura. everyone is trying to talk me out of using GARDZ and pushing the primer on me. hmmm. why...



Jenni,

I painted my whole house last year with Aura Matte - Most walls are excellent but some are in critical light are not. We buy alot of Aura and I can tell you from experience that 2 coats of Aura on bare rock is not very durable (you will find the walls where there is heavy mud ie beads will damage easier) and it will not build an even finish.

The Aura short cut is only good for some instances. When I did my basement, I primed, then Aura - much better finish.

My advice - Use the PPG 6-2 primer, sand and finish with Aura. It is easier to cut the 1st coat of Aura on to primer than bare mud. The walls will be more durable and a more even finish. 

In my tall hall at sunset I can see everywhere there was mud - a high build primer would have solved it - I will level 5 it this winter, prime and coat with Aura Eggshell - (Matte was a mistake in a hall with a 5 year old!)


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## walldog (Jul 28, 2011)

Jenni,

Do your walls have texture? Never had any problems using PVA
primer and two coats of paint on textured bare drywall. We don't do much smooth wall down here and maybe its different.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

daArch said:


> You guys mix gardz with regular waterborne paint?
> 
> I'm all for playing home chemist, and I know paperhangers who mix Shieldz with Gardz (Shardz) because they were (supposedly) assured by the big Z that they are made with the same resins, BUT I would be leary of mixing Aura, or other waterbornes without being educated as to the compatibility.
> 
> I would LOVE to mix Gardz with my favorite wallpaper prep coat (Swing Wallpaper Prep Coat), but I would also hate to be responsible for any possible failure.


We've done primers and flat paints but nothing with sheen. No issues. The mix depended on the thickness of the primer or the flat paint to keep it tolerable to roll. 

It's still experimental for me but I keep trying Gardz on all sorts of things. Most recently we've had the top edge of our MDF baseboard pull off when we pulled our tape. General Blue, and you name it. Gardz fixes that. The paint and primer layer was pulling off almost entirely to bare MDF.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Seems like you can't throw a dead cat in Cleveland without hitting some poor painter who doesnt know what he is doing and needs a bail out.
> 
> Jack, you gotta start getting to these guys before they spread any paint.


The website brings them in from all over. Its not a Cleveland thing and its heavily hit on the site.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Why is it we use to use ceiling paint with no problems? Drywall primer has less pigment and more resins, it's referred to in teh industry as more of a pigmented sealer than a primer. Maybe the products your competition uses is cheap crap? I could get better results than that with one coat of tinted pva and one topcoat of Regal or Accolade. The adhesion issues has more to do with the amount of dust that's on those walls after the drywallers have sanded the mud down. I've always seen tons of dust with those jobs - are those guys even backrolling - or is that primer just being sprayed and left alone?


Its not product specific. Its across the board. No primer excluded so far. The guys on this job rolled primer and both finish. I didn't take any ceiling photos but oh man you should see that train wreck. 

I've used the paint these guys used and I know for fact they would not have that problem had they skipped the PVA and their paint wouldn't pull off even with duct tape.


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

daArch said:


> Jenni,
> 
> I am not sure why you want to seal with Gardz, not that I think it is a wrong choice, just wondering about your reasoning.
> 
> ...


my reasoning for wanting to seal all of the drywall is that i want to protect it thoroughly. my place is a studio with 13' ceilings, with a built in loft space. so the only separate little room is the bathroom. i'm going to have a ventilation fan in there, but i just don't want to have any moisture problems affect the drywall/paint in any way, for a long time. 
also, since it's a pretty small space, they had to mud like every 2 ft of drywall. i'd say there's more mud than bare drywall in tha whole place.

and thank you for the application tips!


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> Back to Jenni- If you are going to an eggshell, gardz is good because it makes a nice even sealed wall that has good holdout. Flat- use any of the above.
> I like to mix 1/4- 1/2 paint into the gardz to give it a little color and also thickens it up a bit and make it easier to handle. For basic priming it still has enough gardz in it to do the job.


extra thanx


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gardz is a nice choice.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jenni

We have done BM 253 and Aura in many multi million dollar new construction homes over the past decade. You would have no problems. Please, skip the Gardz. Just cut and roll like its your business. Or spray and backroll if you are into that.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

My hat is off to you for giving a crap in your own place. You should see the island of misfit cans that is my home paint inventory.


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> My hat is off to you for giving a crap in your own place. You should see the island of misfit cans that is my home paint inventory.


thanx! it's like a regular paint job in that you wanna do it right the first time and leave it be. except this time i don't have to put up with client wanting this or that paint. no pay... but i can do everything exactly my way = priceless


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jenni said:


> thanx! it's like a regular paint job in that you wanna do it right the first time and leave it be. except this time i don't have to put up with client wanting this or that paint. no pay... but i can do everything exactly my way = priceless


I bet you a dollar you never finish it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I bet you a dollar that there will be another thread about drywalll primer next week.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I bet you a dollar that there will be another thread about drywalll primer next week.


Yah, when Jenni stomps this thing and posts it up to show that drywall is, in fact, about the easiest thing in the world. 

Then, you and I will chip in and get t shirts made up that say "Paint like a Girl".


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Its not product specific. Its across the board. No primer excluded so far. The guys on this job rolled primer and both finish. I didn't take any ceiling photos but oh man you should see that train wreck.
> 
> I've used the paint these guys used and I know for fact they would not have that problem had they skipped the PVA and their paint wouldn't pull off even with duct tape.


 :blink:


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Its not product specific. Its across the board. No primer excluded so far. The guys on this job rolled primer and both finish. I didn't take any ceiling photos but oh man you should see that train wreck.
> 
> I've used the paint these guys used and I know for fact they would not have that problem had they skipped the PVA and their paint wouldn't pull off even with duct tape.


 They must have been using BEHR... that damn PVA messed it up...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Has anyone here other than Jack Pauhl ever experience these issues with using primer on sheetrock? This is so unbelieveable to me, I've never seen these issues. The only thing I have ever seen is excess dust that screw up adhesion.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Has anyone here other than Jack Pauhl ever experience these issues with using primer on sheetrock? This is so unbelieveable to me, I've never seen these issues. The only thing I have ever seen is excess dust that screw up adhesion.


I think only the chosen ones real ever really know the true mystery. I realize I may never reach this plane of existence, and, am preparing myself for that reality.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dan

No. Drywall is one of the easiest nc finishes to do - if you dont try to skip a step. Its essential to backroll, and to know how to do it properly. The easiest way to create a visual as shown in this thread is to spray any primer - skip backrolling and pole sanding and turn right around with some non premium eggshell and do the same. That would create the bad visual of joint telegraphing, dust haze, sheen variation and poor adhesion all in one bad day of spraying. 

Its really not a mystery. The mystery is how painters could think that trimming those few hours off the process would be worth the risk. Done properly, drywall is not a mystery, nor is the primer that should be used on it. Worst case, once in a while you get an open span flat ceiling ceiling in an open floor plan with floor to ceiling windows, and you might pick up angular sheen in the ceiling paint (no flats are truly dead flat) if you sight down from different angles from 48' away, but most houses dont pose that particular challenge.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Drywall has a paper front!! We have done plenty of residential new construction with the substrate almost always being drywall. Wipe the walls, spray and backroll primer, pva, ceiling paint, any latex primer... sand.. paint.. on to the next one. Never ever have I had an issue with paint adhering to drywall, the paper front couldn't be more porous, it sucks the primer right in, how could it not stick?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> No. Drywall is one of the easiest nc finishes to do - if you dont try to skip a step. Its essential to backroll, and to know how to do it properly. The easiest way to create a visual as shown in this thread is to spray any primer - skip backrolling and pole sanding and turn right around with some non premium eggshell and do the same. That would create the bad visual of joint telegraphing, dust haze, sheen variation and poor adhesion all in one bad day of spraying.
> 
> Its really not a mystery. The mystery is how painters could think that trimming those few hours off the process would be worth the risk. Done properly, drywall is not a mystery, nor is the primer that should be used on it. Worst case, once in a while you get an open span flat ceiling ceiling in an open floor plan with floor to ceiling windows, and you might pick up angular sheen in the ceiling paint (no flats are truly dead flat) if you sight down from different angles from 48' away, but most houses dont pose that particular challenge.





Julian&co said:


> Drywall has a paper front!! We have done plenty of residential new construction with the substrate almost always being drywall. Wipe the walls, spray and backroll primer, pva, ceiling paint, any latex primer... sand.. paint.. on to the next one.


ahhh, come on guys, that's so boring.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

The only issue I have experienced or witnessed was not properly sealing the rock, including a overkill of the prime coat or not rolling it properly.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jenni
> 
> We have done BM 253 and Aura in many multi million dollar new construction homes over the past decade. You would have no problems. Please, skip the Gardz. Just cut and roll like its your business. Or spray and backroll if you are into that.


That was my first impression too after reading post #1. Gardz is more often used for producing premium finishes or when adhesion is needed and it will make any paint finish look different over it vs two coats of its own, including Aura. When people ask me about Gardz, I always ask "what are you trying to accomplish?" 

She's paying all that money for Aura and shouldn't have any problem getting the results seen below in one coat over bare drywall like we achieve using BEHR ULTRA. Sheen uniformity at its best.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm still not buying into the whole large scale self priming movement. Primer is still important and pretty cheap insurance in the grand scheme. 

I have been through the discussion with architects specifying jobs, and changed specs based on the reality that I am not going to use Aura as a primer at $50+ per gallon when 253 is a great primer at less than half that. Primer is the largest dump of materials in nc. And it still works, regardless of whats on the paint can label.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm still not buying into the whole large scale self priming movement. Primer is still important and pretty cheap insurance in the grand scheme.


Nuff said, end of conversation, no more need for anymore follow up posts. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Nuff said, end of conversation, no more need for anymore follow up posts. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Please, shut her down before this one explodes. And yes, I have explored this in manufacturer R&D facilities in person on raw drywall, and I even know how they feel about the issue of scale in regards to this question.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> That was my first impression too after reading post #1. Gardz is more often used for producing premium finishes or when adhesion is needed and it will make any paint finish look different over it vs two coats of its own, including Aura. When people ask me about Gardz, I always ask "what are you trying to accomplish?"
> 
> She's paying all that money for Aura and shouldn't have any problem getting the results seen below in one coat over bare drywall like we achieve using BEHR ULTRA. Sheen uniformity at its best.


 Unbelievable, Behr has some of the worst coverage in reds I have ever seen. And you are advocating not only skipping a primer step and putting paint to raw rock. You are saying it has the best uniformity. I know for a fact if I used that garbage paint in a red on raw sheetrock, it would look so lousy. I am assuming Behr enamel latex undercoater shares the same properties as their paints? I have used it and can tell you first hand why, it doesn't penetrate worth crap. That's the secret to the sheen holdout - there is no penetration - all the resins are sitting on top.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Oh, yeah - the peeling problems you are referring to are the incompatibilities between one manufactureres paint and anothers' primer. If you use latex primers, you have to stay with the same manufacturers' paint. If you use glidden primer and behr paint - you can run into issues.


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

plainpainter said:


> Has anyone here other than Jack Pauhl ever experience these issues with using primer on sheetrock? This is so unbelieveable to me, I've never seen these issues. The only thing I have ever seen is excess dust that screw up adhesion.


i had this happen once. i was flown down to paint the interior of a big house in key west. the humidity just about killed me, but it also did something funny to the mud/primer adhesion. the places where i had to use blue tape (delicate), it peeled off all the primer/paint down to the mud! i screamed into a t-shirt i was so mad! i should've sealed it! but guy i was working for opposed and in the end it made way more work and frustration for me. booo!


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

ok guys so i took some pix of the new place today. there's mud like every other foot. there's more mud than drywall! i just figured that in this case i might as well just seal everything, forgo the primer, then do 2 coats of aura. i've painted new construction before...i'm not a total dumbazz...or am i?


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Jenni,


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Jenni,

Use SW Latex Problock. Trust me.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm still not buying into the whole large scale self priming movement. Primer is still important and pretty cheap insurance in the grand scheme.
> 
> I have been through the discussion with architects specifying jobs, and changed specs based on the reality that I am not going to use Aura as a primer at $50+ per gallon when 253 is a great primer at less than half that. Primer is the largest dump of materials in nc. And it still works, regardless of whats on the paint can label.


I agree, you don't have to talk me into useing primers. However some primers are just flat overkill as is using Aura as a primer. There should be a "if priming is desired" recommendation. I will always prime, it sniffs good!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Am I the only one that thinks Jenni is a HO and not a contractor?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

you are sealing when you use primer - am I missing something?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

253 is a primer/sealer. Are we really still talking about this?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Lets back up a bit and define primer, sealer, and any possible distinctions (but lets limit this rehashing to drywall only).


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Jenni is a HO and not a contractor?



IMO, all her previous posts indicate she's NOT just a homeowner, but a profesional. Yes, she's doing her own space here, but that's legit. 

Besides, I bet when she cleans up, she smells better than I do if and when I bathe :yes: But hell, Chris, I bet even YOU do :thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Hang on...I'm on the phone with n8er discussing the nuances between DOT5 and DOT4 brake fluids. After that, I will be calling Steve Richards to discuss how I can hear the differences between different battery manufacturers on the pickups of my APX10 acoustic/electric. 

Be back soon...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> 253 is a primer/sealer. Are we really still talking about this?


That's the exact crap that I used on tons of drywall jobs, I think we may have actually used a step down from it - never had a problem. You are absolutley right - I can't believe I got sucked into this thread.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Verm,

I blew the woofer on my '68 KLH 24, can you find me info on that ?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm still not buying into the whole large scale self priming movement. Primer is still important and pretty cheap insurance in the grand scheme.
> 
> I have been through the discussion with architects specifying jobs, and changed specs based on the reality that I am not going to use Aura as a primer at $50+ per gallon when 253 is a great primer at less than half that. Primer is the largest dump of materials in nc. And it still works, regardless of whats on the paint can label.


Scott, I am unable to recommend readers to use a wall primer. Thats why we make a great team as product reviewers--our readers get two entirely different perspectives because our views, requirements, specifications and efficiency schemes vary greatly. We both operate painting companies but our field differences come from working with hundreds of painters who, like you and I, operate their own business. 

There is something to be said about the consistency of the issues we face on our jobs when we find the same issues on their jobs. Product testing allows us to provide a solution when recommendations fail. The poor guy who's job I posted a pic of followed recommendations on the can and rolled all 3 coats. That was no surprise to me to see when I showed up, it was expected. Its great you and I and members on PT don't have those issues but so many painters do. Some don't care, some don't even know paint should look any different, some know but it's not their problem.

When paint applied directly to bare drywall adheres and equalizes porosity far better than the primer architects specify for the job--I'm going to want immediate answers as to why the primer was recommended in the first place. Because what they in fact did, was specify failure. If a primer does not stick, does not equalize porosity, does not provide a solid foundation for paint on new surfaces as our customers expect, then primer is not important regardless of who tells me it is. It's applying failure. 

Why can't you use Aura as a primer and 1 finish? Also, what if you applied Aura directly to bare drywall and it sticks better and equalizes the porosity better than the primer specified? What if you can't pull Aura directly off bare drywall but you can pull Aura off with a primer under it because the primer doesn't offer the same adhesion as Aura?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I good with Jen, she may be green, but my bet is she is worth keeping around. :thumbsup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Aura as Primer: first coat locks down drywall nicely, covers almost perfectly, but should still do a second coat to build film properly. Soaks in on first coat. The downside? For middle range and up homes, we are doing an average of 8 wall colors and prime day is all about getting in, shooting everything quickly, and getting out. No multiple primer colors, etc. Add material loss to overspray plus how much the first coat of aura soaks in, and it gets expensive. If you just cut and roll, it does not mask the drywallers handy work as well (seams will telegraph more, sanding scratches show, etc and this holds for all brush and roll primers) as a sprayed and backrolled prime job. A straight sprayed on primer coat also does not hide these things on smooth drywall.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

1 primer 3 finish (all rolled) and drying. Different products than last pic but this is common with wall primers. Seriously can post photos like these all day long.

This photo shows no equalization was achieved and the 2 coats of paint was not capable of picking up where the primer failed either. Applied by recommendations on the can.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Scott, I am unable to recommend readers to use a wall primer. Thats why we make a great team as product reviewers--our readers get two entirely different perspectives because our views, requirements, specifications and efficiency schemes vary greatly. We both operate painting companies but our field differences come from working with hundreds of painters who, like you and I, operate their own business.
> 
> There is something to be said about the consistency of the issues we face on our jobs when we find the same issues on their jobs. Product testing allows us to provide a solution when recommendations fail. The poor guy who's job I posted a pic of followed recommendations on the can and rolled all 3 coats. That was no surprise to me to see when I showed up, it was expected. Its great you and I and members on PT don't have those issues but so many painters do. Some don't care, some don't even know paint should look any different, some know but it's not their problem.
> 
> ...


Jack

I definitely agree that one's experience forms their opinions of best practice. 

Is there a website for your paint contracting company? I would be curious to view the body of work that has led you to where you are today on the paint contracting side of things. 

My experience from the late 80s to present has been everything from beachfront exterior to apartment turnovers to residential repaint to condo association to light commercial work to finally settling in the market of high end new construction for the past 15 years. Its most of what we do. By high end, I mean multi million dollar residential projects. 

I don't say this at all as a measurement of one's success. Its entirely possible to be successful in any of these markets. I just happened to land in the one that I understand the process of as well or better than anyone else in the chain of it. 

The stakes are intense in high end work. There is very little margin for error and many sets of eyes on the process and product. We spend a considerable amount of time chasing down a perfection that doesnt exist. Getting as close to it as possible, identifying the line of diminishing return and finishing. 

On that basis, from my experience, there is absolutely no reason to deviate too much from the conventional wisdom of primer on drywall being the cheapest insurance one could possibly buy for sheen uniformity, adhesion and color intensity. Sure, we have a bunch of little tweaks in our system. Which drywall primer, whether we modify it, which tips, which rollers, what the harmony between the spray and backroll guys needs to be, etc. Then, as Dan noted, which ceiling paint over which primer, and as Dean noted, which one primer will satisfy both the ceiling and wall coatings. But, after so many years, and so many projects without issue, it has become the one part of the job that is predictable and consistently efficient. Mostly because it is the one stage of the project where you are guaranteed an empty house because no trades can tolerate spray days. 

I do respect your passion for product, but alot of times, when I interpret specifications at the point of blueprint estimating, the initial litmus test in my head is AIA? MPI? PDCA? Which template do I need to go to bat against to get my system approved. If you're system is truly Behr and no primer, then that is sufficient for the market you work in and that is all that matters. 

You may be painting cookie cutters in Cleveland, and if so, thats absolutely fine. Differences in body of work mostly define differences in systems that will work for you but not for me. There are many different levels of nc, and my business path has just happened to lead me to the highest end of the spectrum. Alot of it is on our website and even though they are often multi year projects of multiple phases, there isnt a year that goes by when a couple of projects dont end up in Tauntons or AD. There are many, many layers of scrutiny put on the work that my company puts out, and there is no way that I would take an unnecessary risk on those projects. We take on projects that allow for experimentation, but our signature work is pretty set with systems that basically fall into the lines of 2-3 manufacturers for interior product. Within that, sure, we will explore, but we can quickly identify deviation in the process that will skew the desired result. 

All this to say, there is no right or wrong, just differences in expectations of everyone in the chain that leads you to the wall with paint. I would like to think that regardless of the type of work I was doing, I would be inclined to put out the most responsible finish systems possible, and as above, parallel with the budgets and schedules of the projects.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> 1 primer 3 finish (all rolled) and drying. Different products than last pic but this is common with wall primers. Seriously can post photos like these all day long.
> 
> This photo shows no equalization was achieved and the 2 coats of paint was not capable of picking up where the primer failed either. Applied by recommendations on the can.


 
And this has nothing to do with using a 3/4 nap, the speed or or application methods?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The problem is that ournindustry has been driven to the "cheaper, quicker"mindset so to remain profitable, a lot of niches are forced to find steps to cut and ways to make it work at ridiculous prices. I know I let myself be caught in this mindset a little too much this summer trying to satisfy GC price expectations. The problem is the expectations of finished product are no different than for a finished product at a higher price point, butin appearance and material durability of lesser products.

Jp seems to have found some systems that cut out steps for him. But, a lot of his stuff may not be repeatable since not all painters are equipped with his personal hyperdrive unit as well.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

This says its a bonder/stainblocker. Does that mean it dont seal? Its a full moon, enjoy.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> And this has nothing to do with using a 3/4 nap, the speed or or application methods?


Ever notice how when a wall is wet it shows everything because there are different rates of absorption between the mud and the wallboard? Not the basis from which to draw global conclusions.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Ever notice how when a wall is wet it shows everything because there are different rates of absorption between the mud and the wallboard? Not the basis from which to draw global conclusions.


And with the shadows in that picture it almost looks like he sprayed doors against the walls. Almost looks like semigloss under the paint the way its drying.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> And with the shadows in that picture it almost looks like he sprayed doors against the walls. Almost looks like semigloss under the paint the way its drying.


There is kind of a big wavy halo around top of wall. Must be funky lighting.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> There is kind of a big wavy halo around top of wall. Must be funky lighting.


You can see the semi under the wall paint at the crown. Jack loves spraying crown.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> You can see the semi under the wall paint at the crown. Jack loves spraying crown.


And thats the whole point. Everyone has a system that works for them and it usually matches up pretty consistently with the situations in which they work. For all the stops Jack pulls out, I think his work looks good. That is why I was curious to see more context of the types of projects that form his perspective.


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## crazyson2001 (Jan 3, 2010)

Not trying to start a war here....just wondering why some replies are so against using Gardz as the primer coat? I'm personally leery of not using a primer on bare drywall, and agree with the need to put something on there. The theme of this thread seems to be prime it, but prime it with anything other than Gardz.

However I have not seen any specific reasons posted as to why _not_ to use Gardz? I have used Gardz some after hearing about the product here. Other than the aplication quirks, it is reasonably priced and does a solid job of sealing the porosity of the surface. 

This is coming from a guy that does not paint multi-million dollar homes and my work has not appeared in Architectural Digest. There is a lot of experience and knowledge here...I'm just a schmo asking a question trying to learn.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> This says its a bonder/stainblocker. Does that mean it dont seal? Its a full moon, enjoy.


Don't use it, man. That stuff saponificates wicked.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Are we really still discussing this? 

Post count:
vermontpainter-15
jack pauhl-10
TJ Paint-9
NEPS.US-8
plainpainter-7

:jester:


:lol:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> Am I the only one that thinks Jenni is a HO and not a contractor?


 
yeah your the only one


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

btw premium flat white is the best ''primer'' for bare rock :thumbsup:......NOOBS


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Ole34 said:


> yeah your the only one


You too video door boy. :thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Ole34 said:


> btw premium flat white is the best ''primer'' for bare rock :thumbsup:......NOOBS


They use rock in outhouses in the backwoods of PA?


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

go ahead an pinch me ......i exist


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

You guys are making my head hurt.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> They use rock in outhouses in the backwoods of PA?


 


yes they do !! ...........you have 30 more seconds to talk to me then im going back to something more important


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> You guys are making my head hurt.


This is part of what is cool about the paint business. I run into guys locally at the paint stores and what not. We all have different specialties. 

A big commercial guy will say to me: "I couldn't do what you do", and I say "likewise." 

We _could_ do what each other does, but its not what we want to be doing. There is a healthy respect that goes along with that, in my opinion. Nothing I say in these ridiculous diatribes is intended to offend. 

Just think, in 100 years when archeologists dig up all of the porta lets we wrote on, we can rest assured that they will also dig up painttalk and confirm that painters are knuckleheads. 

By the way, speaking of volume posting, where the heck did LC ever go?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> This is part of what is cool about the paint business. I run into guys locally at the paint stores and what not. We all have different specialties.
> 
> A big commercial guy will say to me: "I couldn't do what you do", and I say "likewise."
> 
> ...


I'm thinking he got tired of threads like this one.:whistling2:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Maybe we should turn all our attention to pressure washing.......


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

WWLCD? He would prime.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> I'm thinking he got tired of threads like this one.:whistling2:


And I know you mean literally, mentally TIRED of it. Man that dude could put up some fast word count. I remember telling him that he would never rack up posts writing the chapters he was writing. I miss him.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Queen for a few days ?? ................yeah im a bit observant :jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Maybe we should turn all our attention to pressure washing.......


Yah that was really funny whoever dressed up Harry as a pressure washer and shoved him back in here. Really funny.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

RCP said:


> Maybe we should turn all our attention to pressure washing.......


We have a section on that?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> WWLCD? He would prime.


He would prime with a brush.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Vote for Ron Paul?


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

LC = Last Craftsman?

I remember when he was upset about 'freedom of speech' on here. I think his diatribes got locked twice and he'd start a new thread because he wasn't 'done'.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> And I know you mean literally, mentally TIRED of it. Man that dude could put up some fast word count. I remember telling him that he would never rack up posts writing the chapters he was writing. I miss him.


I do too. He could write some good stuff. You may not have always agreed with him, but he could get you thinking. I thought you and he were quite a bit alike in your writing skills. He was very articulate in what he had to say and didn't mind taking the time and space to voice his views.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> I do too. He could write some good stuff. You may not have always agreed with him, but he could get you thinking. I thought you and he were quite a bit alike in your writing skills. He was very articulate in what he had to say and didn't mind taking the time and space to voice his views.


He could outlast me. It was like the dude was on Writers Viagra. 

He was a great writer, and I agreed with alot of what he had to say. It was never really argumentative. It was just excruciatingly detailed. Every time.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

He pm'd me over the summer, he is fine, busy.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> He pm'd me over the summer, he is fine, busy.


Now there...there is a blogger just waiting to happen.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Scott, I think you may have got the wrong msg from my post. You described exactly the same scope of work i've been doing since the late 80's, 12 million to 95,000 to apartment repaints. For the record, I never stripped a log cabin before. I was aware you did all that. Their size has no barring on the work we perform. You also described many other paint contractors I've worked with, none of which have similarities other than the scope of the work we perform. Its likely many PT members do the same scope.

The interesting aspect with our systems is the seamless unique integration no matter who's house we are standing in. It does not cost any more to produce top notch finishes in a multi million dollar home vs cookie cutters with exception of additional components. The parts are very similar, often identical substrates. The system is efficient and accommodating to common variables by design. This list of fail-safe go-to products is short, few products have good range. This provides consistency and expected results within the systems. The list is very short and it changes more often than I care to deal with. The range of a gallon of wall primer is limited. For me to recommend it would be as vague as me telling readers to use a quality paint.

My goal is aways to produce top notch finishes the most efficient way possible. Collectively the systems are intense in comparison to common competition. We do far more (processing) than competition in a fraction of their time and who better to know than the guy who works with the competition. 

What I meant by my post in the simplest form is that I find the time it takes to coil the cord on the CT 26 far more of an inconvenience vs throwing the cord around my RIDGID in less time. 2 factors play a role in that, 1) the rubber coating on the cord does not slide through your hands like the smooth cord on a RIDGID. 2) its easier to lasso a cord around the top of the RIDGID vs how the cord can be put away one of two ways on the CT 26. You and I would have different views on the importance of a cord and the function of a vac from a productivity standpoint for example. On the other side of the coin, it's extremely difficult to find one product to fit many variables. 

How all this relates to the use of primer in this thread is our differences. My system is 2 coats of finish or 1 gardz 2 finish. We are not exclusive to any specific product or brand but I do use BEHR where I see fit. 

I'll email you on the other.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> He would prime with a brush.


If you are finished with the primer dilemma could you give me your opinion on some cedar siding?
I will start a thread.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> If you are finished with the primer dilemma could you give me your opinion on some cedar siding?
> I will start a thread.


I would love to stop thinking about drywall.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## ArcherThePainter (Jul 23, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Scott, I think you may have got the wrong msg from my post. You described exactly the same scope of work i've been doing since the late 80's, 12 million to 95,000 to apartment repaints. For the record, I never stripped a log cabin before. I was aware you did all that. Their size has no barring on the work we perform. You also described many other paint contractors I've worked with, none of which have similarities other than the scope of the work we perform. Its likely many PT members do the same scope.
> 
> The interesting aspect with our systems is the seamless unique integration no matter who's house we are standing in. It does not cost any more to produce top notch finishes in a multi million dollar home vs cookie cutters with exception of additional components. The parts are very similar, often identical substrates. The system is efficient and accommodating to common variables by design. This list of fail-safe go-to products is short, few products have good range. This provides consistency and expected results within the systems. The list is very short and it changes more often than I care to deal with. The range of a gallon of wall primer is limited. For me to recommend it would be as vague as me telling readers to use a quality paint.
> 
> ...


Forgive my stupid, I always have to read your post for at least 4times to get understand, maybe too deep for me, sometime I even feel I'm not a painter, I'm a nuts. Am I the only one?


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Do you guys sponge down new drywall before priming or gardzing? Just curious.


ok i have an update for you guys...

i walk in to seal the place and the GC already had his guys prime the whole place, disregarding our specific instruction not to prime!!! i was screaming and swearing in 3 different languages. they used Glidden PVA - which i HATE. it took me 3 days to calm down. i had to return the fiver of GARDZ that i bought and paint over their stupid primer job. drip marks everywhere and they didn't even prime the corners, which of course were all mud. i had them finish their stupid priming job.
then i sanded the walls and cleaned them off. rolled 2 coats of aura eggshell in super white, using the BM extender (which is great stuff), sanding in between coats with 220 grit. i rolled using the 0.5" aura roller covers then backrolled lightly (last pass down) with a microfiber roller cover. walls are smooth like a baby's butt now and no lap marks. 

HOWEVER i dont think the degenerates that primed the walls wiped it down before rolling the PVA. adhesion is chitty. and all the mudded areas flashed thru primer and somewhat thru the first coat of aura. after PVA, walls were really thirsty and it took a LOT of paint for the first coat. second coat was a breeze tho. 

conclusion: 1) *I SHOULD DEFINITELY HAVE USED GARDZ* and then proceeded with 2 coats of aura. 2) BM extender for aura really helps for tall walls. 3) love the guys at my fav epco on irving park rd.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

jenni said:


> ok i have an update for you guys...
> 
> 
> 
> conclusion: 1) *I SHOULD DEFINITELY HAVE USED GARDZ* and then proceeded with 2 coats of aura. 2) BM extender for aura really helps for tall walls. 3) love the guys at my fav epco on irving park rd.


Wow, sorry to hear. What a irony after all the stuff in this thread too, that they primed it. 

I agree gardzing woulda saved on paint, wouldnt have been so thirsty.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

PVA is what guys use to make it look like theyre workin ......kills time anywho should have just done 2 coats of Aura .......


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

jenni said:


> love the guys at my fav epco on irving park rd.


I love the new location there. Much nicer store than the old one down the block. And I agree, good guys there. I use the one on Harlem at Foster.

Sucks that they didn't listen to you regarding the primer, but sounds like you did a top notch job. Hope you enjoy the new place!


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