# Bidding exterior painting *lead removal RRP job*



## overthepondpainting

I've painted several exteriors last year, which required the removal of lead paint. These jobs became extremely labor intensive not to mention the additional costs we have all had to incur following the new EPA requirements. 

Having the same issue as last year customers just don’t want to pay for the removal of lead paint. Most opt to have an unlicensed painter do the work illegally. 

Even using tools like the paint-shaver it takes many man-hours to remove paint from say cedar shingles. I have four houses to estimate so far this year that require lead removal as paint is in terrible shape. 

So to my question how much should a licensed painter charge in addition to the normal paint contract for lead removal? I have been charging 
$0.80 per sq ft and customers think it’s too high! They just expect us to somehow absorb the additional cost if we want the job. I’ve checked with other companies they charge $4-$7 per sq ft, nationally removal costs an estimated $8-$15 per sq ft according to EPA and RealtyTimes. 

Many thanks for your time. Carl


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## RH

Carl -
Can't help you with the rate question but will say that at least one of the larger and well known outfits in my area is now refusing to do exteriors on houses where lead paint is a potential issue.


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## Tonyg

What about encapsulation rather than removal?


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## Brian C

I have the same problem convincing my customers to have all the old exterior weatherboard paint removed back to bare timber for a long lasting new paint job. 
They generally don't want to pay for the old paint to be removed. I purchased the paint shaver and its a great tool but a bit tricky to use.


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## Dean CRCNA

Why are you or the homeowners being "required" to remove all the paint? If the intent is to remove all lead based paint, this is abatement and needs to be done by a certified abatement contractor.


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## CliffK

overthepondpainting said:


> I've painted several exteriors last year, which required the removal of lead paint. These jobs became extremely labor intensive not to mention the additional costs we have all had to incur following the new EPA requirements.
> 
> Having the same issue as last year customers just don’t want to pay for the removal of lead paint. Most opt to have an unlicensed painter do the work illegally.
> 
> Even using tools like the paint-shaver it takes many man-hours to remove paint from say cedar shingles. I have four houses to estimate so far this year that require lead removal as paint is in terrible shape.
> 
> So to my question how much should a licensed painter charge in addition to the normal paint contract for lead removal? I have been charging
> $0.80 per sq ft and customers think it’s too high! They just expect us to somehow absorb the additional cost if we want the job. I’ve checked with other companies they charge $4-$7 per sq ft, nationally removal costs an estimated $8-$15 per sq ft according to EPA and RealtyTimes.
> 
> Many thanks for your time. Carl


The problem has been solved in my area by covering just about everything in vinyl.:yes:


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## overthepondpainting

Tonyg said:


> What about encapsulation rather than removal?



I'm going to include a quote for encapsulation with the normal lead removal quote in the hopes the home owner will go with one of them. 

I operate in Kansas and already seen the blow and go guys power washing this stuff off and painting - just can't compete and run the risk of fines.


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## overthepondpainting

Dean CRCNA said:


> Why are you or the homeowners being "required" to remove all the paint? If the intent is to remove all lead based paint, this is abatement and needs to be done by a certified abatement contractor.


The condition of the paint is extremely bad there isn't a sound surface to paint off. There has been too many coats applied in an unprofessional manner. To give a lasting paint finish a more stable paint surface is required. Really starting to think wet scrape and encapsulation is the most cost effective way to go but worry how long it will hold up.


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## overthepondpainting

CliffK said:


> The problem has been solved in my area by covering just about everything in vinyl.:yes:


Vinyl or Hardie planks sure would make it easier. However the home owners still think it costs two grand to have 3500sq ft houses painted - perhaps they have been around the peeling lead paint to long.


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## RCP

Dean has a good point, you are not doing "lead paint removal" you are removing paint and taking precautions because it is lead paint. I would not be using the term.


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## Dean CRCNA

overthepondpainting said:


> The condition of the paint is extremely bad there isn't a sound surface to paint off. There has been too many coats applied in an unprofessional manner. To give a lasting paint finish a more stable paint surface is required. Really starting to think wet scrape and encapsulation is the most cost effective way to go but worry how long it will hold up.


What you are trying to do is sell the customer on removing all paint, when their *need* is just to have the house painted. Some way, you either have to change their need in their mind or you won't get the job.

The same is true when selling RRP jobs. They are just wanting their house painted, but you have to change their need to ...

1. I want to do this legally.

2. I want to do this safely.

3. and/or I want to avoid liability.

Older clients tend to be interested in doing it legally. Younger clients tend to be interested in their kids or they're pregnant (in child bearing years). On exterior painting, they are motivated to avoid liability (don't want to put lead dust on neighbors)


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## straight_lines

overthepondpainting said:


> Vinyl or Hardie planks sure would make it easier. However the home owners still think it costs two grand to have 3500sq ft houses painted - perhaps they have been around the peeling lead paint to long.


There is your answer. If they are that budget conscious then let another painter have the work.


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## straight_lines

RCP said:


> Dean has a good point, you are not doing "lead paint removal" you are removing paint and taking precautions because it is lead paint. I would not be using the term.


I agree you are responsible for contamination prevention.


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## Posten Painting

*Abatement vs. Scraping*

When we have a customer with a pre-1978 home that is a scraper we give them two options:

1. We can scrape the house working lead-safe and then use Peel Bond primer on the house and then paint. No sanding or feathering will be done. Or

2. We give them a couple of referrals for a lead-abatement company to have their house stripped. Then we come in and pressure wash, prime, caulk, and paint the house. Again, no sanding because the lead actually bonds with the wood so sanding the wood will release the lead as well.

If the customer isn't happy with either of these options then we won't give an estimate for the job. We aren't willing to work illegally on a lead house. 

Pretty much once the situation is explained it is about 50/50 between options 1 and 2. Most of our customers understand that there are new laws in place and are themselves willing to abide by them.

Kevin
www.postenpainting.com


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## kmp

The lead base houses I do are not brought down to bare wood as no one here could afford it.
I pressure wash it and wet scrape it peel bond it and use an encapsulant paint called Lead Stop.It takes alot of mill thickness to work but is more affordable than stripping to bare wood.
When I pressure wash I use a garden mesh ,stuff that lets water thru but weeds can't grow up,stapeled and duct taped to the wall and at the edge of that I run plastic out the required distance.I use tent pegs to hold it in place.That way the water runs thru the mesh collects the paint chips and then roll it up and toss it.


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## 6126

researchhound said:


> Carl -
> Can't help you with the rate question but will say that at least one of the larger and well known outfits in my area is now refusing to do exteriors on houses where lead paint is a potential issue.


I took the class right after they passed the new law in April 2010. Got certified, bid quite a few jobs, only got two and decided its a waste of my time. Lead or no lead, I dont do anything pre 78 period.


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## premierpainter

kmp said:


> The lead base houses I do are not brought down to bare wood as no one here could afford it.
> I pressure wash it and wet scrape it peel bond it and use an encapsulant paint called Lead Stop.It takes alot of mill thickness to work but is more affordable than stripping to bare wood.
> When I pressure wash I use a garden mesh ,stuff that lets water thru but weeds can't grow up,stapeled and duct taped to the wall and at the edge of that I run plastic out the required distance.I use tent pegs to hold it in place.That way the water runs thru the mesh collects the paint chips and then roll it up and toss it.


Power washing is not allowed for lead homes


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## tonyman

premierpainter said:


> Power washing is not allowed for lead homes


_I have never heard this! Is this a law?_


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## kmp

I thought it was acceptable since there were no air born particles or dust and all debris was contained and disposed off.When I took the class I thought it was brought up but the instructor was very new and did'nt know all the answers.
Fortunatly I do'nt get many call's for rrp but I will do some research. Thanks.


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## Gough

premierpainter said:


> Power washing is not allowed for lead homes


There is an EPA law that pertains to power washing buildings with LPB. I don't have a link handy, but what I remember is that the wash water has to be filtered before being released, I think to whatever is the liquid equivalent of HEPA. This was a surprise to all of the people in our RRP class except for two, one was the instructor.

EDIT: Some states have stricter regulations about handling this. I know WI bans it, and NJ may as well.


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## kmp

I just found something ,of course I forgot to write down where, but it said pressure washing was ok but all water had to be contained or collected.It din't say anything about filtering or disposal.As with all these rules there is no one easy place to get all the answers.


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## Gough

kmp said:


> I just found something ,of course I forgot to write down where, but it said pressure washing was ok but all water had to be contained or collected.It din't say anything about filtering or disposal.As with all these rules there is no one easy place to get all the answers.


I've seen several references to using a 5-micron filter in documents from several different states. A lot of the EPA documents just defer to local environmental laws.


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## caulktheline

kmp said:


> I just found something ,of course I forgot to write down where, but it said pressure washing was ok but all water had to be contained or collected.It din't say anything about filtering or disposal.As with all these rules there is no one easy place to get all the answers.


The instructor told us we had to dig a hole at the lowest side of the house, put our plastic down, have someone on a push broom pushing the water toward the hole, use a sump pump to pump the water through a 5 micron filter, collect water in buckets, and flush water down the toilet.


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## Dean CRCNA

http://toxics.supportportal.com/lin...ontainment-and-other-preparation-are-required


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## caulktheline

oh so that's how you do it...:detective:


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## richmondpainting

EPA is a conspiracy and full of ****.... just make an attempt to follow there dumb rules and they will stay away and keep it low key...no yard sign ..be quick about and don't piss of neighbors... lead jobs are a gold mine..just be smart....


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## Epoxy Pro

richmondpainting said:


> EPA is a conspiracy and full of ****.... just make an attempt to follow there dumb rules and they will stay away and keep it low key...no yard sign ..be quick about and don't piss of neighbors... lead jobs are a gold mine..just be smart....



They are a gold mine until you get caught doing it wrong. You are one reason these laws are in place and why us that do it right have to spend a fortune on doing it correctly.
I have to check the MA laws on this as far as I remember caulktheline is right on this, all water must be contained and disposed.
We priced a lead job last summer, told the HO straight out it would be cheaper to reside the one side of the home that had lead, he wanted it all removed, between our repaint price and the lead abatment price it was close so he resided and we had no lead to deal with. As the HO he could remove the lead clapboards himself with out having to follow the MA/EPA laws which has always had me scratching my head. You can also get the HO to sign a release for releaseing you from and further issues that may come out of it.

I stand corrected.


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## Epoxy Pro

Directly from the IEE MA book.

MA/RI RRP laws pertaining to powerwashing.

MA:
Don't use uncontained Hydroblasting.
In MA the use of power operated equiptment that removes lead based paintthrough high speed sanding, grinding, planing, impact blasting or abrading is prohiited by the DOS except where such power tools are equipted with Hepa-filtered exhaust ventilation.
MA does notinclude the word "abrasive" prior to the word "blasting". In discusions with the DOS this may have been a transcription oversite. However, as theregulation is writtenit could be interpreted that the MA regulation prohibits preasure washing.
Removal of paint using this method can spread paint chips beyond th work area. This result makes it difficult to clean up these hazards at the end of the day.

RI:
DEM states hydroblasting or wet abrasive blasting may be used for exterior lead paint removal provided that a vertical cotainment system is employed that prevents any and all fallout generated by the operation from traveling beyond the ground containment. Additionally any and all liquid waste generated by the operator must be adequately contained and handled in accordance with applicable waste disposal regulations.

Contain Preasure Washing is Acceptable per EPA.
Removal of paint using contained preassure washing within a protective enclosure to prevent the spread of the paint chips, dust, and debris may be done. bcause this method requires additional precautions that are beyond the scope of this guide, it should only be used by Certified lead abatement workers.
Preasure washing is not a prohibited pratice under the EPA RRP Rule. Preasure washing is subject to the same containment requirements a other permissible work practices. Before begining the renovation the firm must isolate the work area so that no dust or debris (including in the waste water)leaves the work area while the renovation is being preformed. In addition, the firm must maintain the integrity of the containment by ensuring that any plastic or other mpermable are not torn or displacedand taking any other steps neccessary to ensure that no dust or debris leaves the work area while the renovation is being preformed. The firm must also ensure that containment is installed in such a manner that it does not interfere with occupant and worker egress in an emargency.


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## richmondpainting

cdpainting said:


> They are a gold mine until you get caught doing it wrong. You are one reason these laws are in place and why us that do it right have to spend a fortune on doing it correctly.
> I have to check the MA laws on this as far as I remember caulktheline is right on this, all water must be contained and disposed.
> We priced a lead job last summer, told the HO straight out it would be cheaper to reside the one side of the home that had lead, he wanted it all removed, between our repaint price and the lead abatment price it was close so he resided and we had no lead to deal with. As the HO he could remove the lead clapboards himself with out having to follow the MA/EPA laws which has always had me scratching my head. You can also get the HO to sign a release for releaseing you from and further issues that may come out of it.
> 
> I stand corrected.


Ridiculousness


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## Gough

richmondpainting said:


> Ridiculousness





richmondpainting said:


> EPA is a conspiracy and full of ****.... just make an attempt to follow there dumb rules and they will stay away and keep it low key...no yard sign ..be quick about and don't piss of neighbors... lead jobs are a gold mine..just be smart....


So your approach to working in two states with two different sets of LPB rules and two different sets of occupational safety rules is just to ignore all of it?


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## richmondpainting

Gough said:


> So your approach to working in two states with two different sets of LPB rules and two different sets of occupational safety rules is just to ignore all of it?


Targeted once again.....nooo i did not say that.....as long as your not violating every rule in the book and your "trying" to obey the rules....plus its hard to be caught...if you throw some plastic out and well thats about it....


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## chrisn

Gough said:


> So your approach to working in two states with two different sets of LPB rules and two different sets of occupational safety rules is just to ignore all of it?


 
I really don't think anyone is going to get through to this guy. I ,for one am giving up. I think he is just trolling and or just( I don't want to say stupid) but something, young and dumb? Something.

Tim's famous train wreck photo comes to mind.:whistling2:


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## richmondpainting

chrisn said:


> I really don't think anyone is going to get through to this guy. I ,for one am giving up. I think he is just trolling and or just( I don't want to say stupid) but something, young and dumb? Something.
> 
> Tim's famous train wreck photo comes to mind.:whistling2:


Thanks bud.....ill keep my comments to myself on that one......its cool...


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## Epoxy Pro

richmondpainting said:


> Targeted once again.....nooo i did not say that.....as long as your not violating every rule in the book and your "trying" to obey the rules....plus its hard to be caught...if you throw some plastic out and well thats about it....



No one should violate any or the lead laws PERIOD! I am speechless at some things you say. I am the type that will drop a dime on some one not following the lead laws. How is this fair to the ones who really CARE.
If you want the respect of people here don't be so dumb with your comments and then back track and say "Targeted once again."
If you don't know the laws don't act like you do. If you do know the laws you are just as a$$hat for breaking the laws.


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## Epoxy Pro

chrisn 
"I really don't think anyone is going to get through to this guy. I ,for one am giving up. I think he is just trolling and or just ........................"
I agree.

Gough 
I am just going to call our company richmondpainting for all of our lead jobs only so if I get caught because of his so called expert advise he will have to pay the heafty fines not me :thumbup:


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## richmondpainting

cdpainting said:


> No one should violate any or the lead laws PERIOD! I am speechless at some things you say. I am the type that will drop a dime on some one not following the lead laws. How is this fair to the ones who really CARE.
> If you want the respect of people here don't be so dumb with your comments and then back track and say "Targeted once again."
> If you don't know the laws don't act like you do. If you do know the laws you are just as a$$hat for breaking the laws.


Wow......Don't be mad cause I talk the truth ....your one of them guys....glad I know to stay away from you.....snitch ass dude......


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## richmondpainting

cdpainting said:


> chrisn
> "I really don't think anyone is going to get through to this guy. I ,for one am giving up. I think he is just trolling and or just ........................"
> I agree.
> 
> Gough
> I am just going to call our company richmondpainting for all of our lead jobs only so if I get caught because of his so called expert advise he will have to pay the heafty fines not me :thumbup:


Yall are straight up disrespectful....I didn't disrespect you ....I don't expect to be treated in this way....and y'all are mature adults?..get outta here....


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## chrisn

says the troll


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## richmondpainting

yall are just on some uncalled for ****....


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## Roamer

richmondpainting said:


> EPA is a conspiracy and full of ****.... just make an attempt to follow there dumb rules and they will stay away and keep it low key...no yard sign ..be quick about and don't piss of neighbors... lead jobs are a gold mine..just be smart....


I think what Richmond's intent with this post, and by all means correct me if I'm wrong, it that as long as you are taking 'reasonable and prudent' measures, as pertaining to the RRP rules, then you are likely safe from scrutiny by the EPA. This is probably true. The EPA does not have the resources to police every job. They typically respond to complaints from neighbors or the client themselves.

Has anyone on this site actually captured all of the water after washing a pre-78 home and dealt with it in accordance with the regulations?


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## Gough

Roamer said:


> I think what Richmond's intent with this post, and by all means correct me if I'm wrong, it that as long as you are taking 'reasonable and prudent' measures, as pertaining to the RRP rules, then you are likely safe from scrutiny by the EPA. This is probably true. The EPA does not have the resources to police every job. They typically respond to complaints from neighbors or the client themselves.
> 
> Has anyone on this site actually captured all of the water after washing a pre-78 home and dealt with it in accordance with the regulations?


If you take a look at the pictures on his FB page, I think you'd have to agree that he's not taking reasonable and prudent measures, on many levels.


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## Jmayspaint

I did my first EPA compliant lead job two years ago. It's sad to say that I really didn't understand the dangers of lead until my local BM dealer started an awareness campaign when the new laws took effect. I mean I'm not a dumb a##, as a painter I knew lead paint existed and was bad. But honestly I just didn't understand the dangers. Thinking back now to jobs of the past gives me the willies, I've got kids! They are the ones at risk most when one of us creates lead dust. Saw a sign the other day said " one million kids affected by lead every day! The instructors of the certification class my BM rep organized were good. I really had no idea I'm ashamed to say.
But too the technical stuff. I actually had already bid the job when I took the class so I explained it to the customer, who was a landlord renting to a small day care. I added the 20% to the price that the government says complying adds, did a class at the shop to train the guys and gall, and went to work. We wet scraped, did some (moist) hepavac sanding, and washed the house at the end of the prep by hand with sponge and bucket. All lap siding and windows. I consider the job a success, but not the pricing technique, as I ended up making 10$ hr.
The lead out stripper advertised around this site looks promising. Any body use it? We need to find a more efficient way to deal with these jobs. I think the cost hike could be kept at around 20% with better methods than I used. Those of us who care have to make it affordable and inform people about the risks, I do feel like it is our 'duty' or something to help reduce lead poisoning. Or at least my duty because I'm sure I have poisoned kids unknowingly in the past.


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## chrisn

joshmays1976 said:


> I did my first EPA compliant lead job two years ago. It's sad to say that I really didn't understand the dangers of lead until my local BM dealer started an awareness campaign when the new laws took effect. I mean I'm not a dumb a##, as a painter I knew lead paint existed and was bad. But honestly I just didn't understand the dangers. Thinking back now to jobs of the past gives me the willies, I've got kids! They are the ones at risk most when one of us creates lead dust. Saw a sign the other day said " one million kids affected by lead every day! The instructors of the certification class my BM rep organized were good. I really had no idea I'm ashamed to say.
> But too the technical stuff. I actually had already bid the job when I took the class so I explained it to the customer, who was a landlord renting to a small day care. I added the 20% to the price that the government says complying adds, did a class at the shop to train the guys and gall, and went to work. We wet scraped, did some (moist) hepavac sanding, and washed the house at the end of the prep by hand with sponge and bucket. All lap siding and windows. I consider the job a success, but not the pricing technique, as I ended up making 10$ hr.
> The lead out stripper advertised around this site looks promising. Any body use it? We need to find a more efficient way to deal with these jobs. I think the cost hike could be kept at around 20% with better methods than I used. Those of us who care have to make it affordable and inform people about the risks, I do feel like it is our 'duty' or something to help reduce lead poisoning. Or at least my duty because I'm sure I have poisoned kids unknowingly in the past.


You ever see a sign that says how many kids are affected by sugar every day?


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## Gough

chrisn said:


> You ever see a sign that says how many kids are affected by sugar every day?


OTOH, I think sugar gets metabolized a lot faster than lead and doesn't cause demyelination.


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## kdpaint

There are peer reviewed (as in other smart science-y people review the work) studies that link lead poisoning to the rise of violent crime rates throughout the late 70s and 80s. The theory is that as the kids in housing projects were exposed to the deteriorating lead paint, their brains were affected and their impulse control was damaged. That and they couldn't learn anything in school because it fried all sorts of other parts of their brains as well. 

My friend is a pediatrician and she sees lead poisoning in the children of people who work in the trades all the time. The kid rides in the truck, the jacket hanging in the hall, covered in lead, etc....


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## Jmayspaint

Something I've done when encountering lead on a small scale, like a door or couple windows, Is just to calk and paint over it with minimum or no prep. It's not dangerous if you don't make dust, except if there is existing dust from deterioration. I use a lot of caulk and a good latex. If you smear the caulk on the weathered/ checked / peeling areas, then paint it while the caulk is wet it creates a very sticky flexible coat that will hold together even if it pops up underneath. It's a low cost alternative to all the hassle of wet scraping etc. 
I noticed years ago in the bad old days of working on old homes that often the paint would be peeling everywhere except around the caulking. So I thought why not smear caulk everywhere to prevent future peeling. Have a couple houses done this way going on ten years and they are still holding for the most part
Going back to one, done four years ago like this, tomorrow to do a low pressure wash. It's holding great, just a few areas have popped up and I plan to glue them back down with caulk.
I have done this on a lot of old homes with great success. You basically end up with a super-elastomeric coat of paint and caulk mixed together. I call it PALK Armor.


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## BrushJockey

You might try products like Peel Bond, and Peel Stop- they do similar things


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## chrisn

Gough said:


> OTOH, I think sugar gets metabolized a lot faster than lead and doesn't cause demyelination.


 
not exactly my point but OK

you never see signs for the millions upon millions of fat kids and the danger of sugar intake


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## kdpaint

Yeah, will someone tell just the hell is up with all the fat kids? Man, in the 70s and 80s it seemed like hardly anyone was fat. Sugar? Antibiotics in meat? BPH? Video games and parents who are full of fear and don't like their kids playing outside?


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## Gough

chrisn said:


> not exactly my point but OK
> 
> you never see signs for the millions upon millions of fat kids and the danger of sugar intake


I get that long term intake of large amounts of sugar is a bad thing, no question. You made the comparison and I don't think it's a valid one. It's not even apples to oranges, it's apples to anvils.


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## chrisn

Gough said:


> I get that long term intake of large amounts of sugar is a bad thing, no question. You made the comparison and I don't think it's a valid one. It's not even apples to oranges, it's apples to anvils.


 
well kdpaint got it, anvil and all


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## Steve Richards

You can't compare sugar and lead dust.

(but I still love you chrisn)


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## chrisn

Steve Richards said:


> You can't compare sugar and lead dust.
> 
> (but I still love you chrisn)


 
you can
and I did:laughing:


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## howe

Glad to know i'm not the only one! I do the same and am observing 5 homes and they are all holding great after 3-4 years, which is really hard to achieve in the Pacific NW. I also prime my houses completely before caulking.


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## marksimon112

It all depends on preparation and quality expected. You have to be experienced to give proper price.

Since you are asking we must assume you are not a pro so keep in mind you can't shoot for pro pricing.


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