# garage doors



## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

I gave a bid to do 3 garage doors for a homeowner on 4-8-11. I have been in contact with her a few times through email and phone since then. I just received an email from her saying my bid was thousands above the other 2 bids. they said they would like me to do it but would like me to give another quote using a different process unless I think it isn't a good idea.

The doors were originally done with a custom minwax stain mix and minwax spar urethane. The doors are now flaking and there are areas where the wood has turned gray. The doors were resealed by a guy I worked for previously about a year ago.

I stripped, stained and sealed her front door unit in late march with which she is very happy. My proposal for the garage doors was to strip the doors and start from the beginning. Two other painters(one i worked for, and another i know) both tell her a light sanding and reseal will be good. I disagree. Wood darkens over time obviously. My concern is that if the gray areas are sanded to fresh wood and then the rest of the door scuff sanded and then re-stain gray areas, the color is not going to be consistent(seen it before). The guy I worked for before told the homeowner that the gray areas was just the sealer.

My question is what process would you follow? Would you strip these doors or would you "lightly sand" and reseal? I did not propose to strip these doors because i love to strip:whistling2:, but because I think that is going to ensure the best finish.

your thoughts?

the door in the middle is probably the worst. I am trying to resize a better picture of it so you can see.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Do what the customer wants. I personally think that stripping down to bare wood is not needed. If you were "thousands" over the other guys, it seems like you were really expensive. Stripping is not going to be easy with the hinges and tongue and groove boards.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Perfect candidate for Sikkens Door & Window, light oak. Clean, lightly sand, 2 coats...done.


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

premierpainter said:


> Do what the customer wants. I personally think that stripping down to bare wood is not needed. If you were "thousands" over the other guys, it seems like you were really expensive. Stripping is not going to be easy with the hinges and tongue and groove boards.



I have not had great success in the past touching up stain myself. This is where my concern lies. I just don't think that the job will be as good as it could be. 

The homeowners dont have a preference i dont think as far as process. I think they just want the least amount of cost but want to know why i feel it needs to be stripped.

The price increase comes not from me being really expensive but from 2 different processes. Of course i could scuff sand and reseal much faster than i could remove hardware,strip,sand,stain and 2 coats of sealer.

I worked for one of the guys before. He has no insurance and charges $30 an hour for himself. I do think he should make that much but he isn't if he is only charging $30 an hour. When i worked for him, I got a 1099. He has a job, not a business. enough about that.

My question remains, what process would you use and why?

I do thank you for your input .


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Perfect candidate for Sikkens Door & Window, light oak. Clean, lightly sand, 2 coats...done.


Thanks for your input NC. I am not familiar with that product. Are you saying to apply it over the existing coating?


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

They don't look that bad to me. I think sanding and recoat (like the other bids said) would be fine. Stripping isn't going to protect the wood any better anyway. In this case I'd just give the HO what they want.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I got a house that has 2 doors just like your pics, I'm going to sand and clear coat them. Think I will try the sikkens per NC, :thumbsup:

I've been thousands higher, prob 1 out of 5. I'm typically all ways higher. So I wouldn't care much if someone told me that. If your recommendation is a full strip, then you ought to stick too that with the option to just sand and recoat.


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I got a house that has 2 doors just like your pics, I'm going to sand and clear coat them. Think I will try the sikkens per NC, :thumbsup:
> 
> I've been thousands higher, prob 1 out of 5. I'm typically all ways higher. So I wouldn't care much if someone told me that. If your recommendation is a full strip, then you ought to stick too that with the option to just sand and recoat.



The price part, i am not concerned with one bit. I know who the other people are and i know what it would take me to do it to my satisfaction.

The homeowner already told me she would like me to be the one to do it, she just wants a price to do it just sanding and recoating. she also said if I feel that isn't sufficient to please explain.

Are the doors you are doing stained with gray areas? Will you touch up the stain or just clean, scuff and coat with sikkens?


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

Here is another picture. One thing you can't see in the pictures is the fact that there are putty ghosts around most of the nail holes also. I hope someone will address my concerns about discoloration in the final product with just sanding, touching up stain and a clear coat. They have already purchased the clear coat. I would be willing to suggest the sikkens route once i get some more info on it.


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

Without stripping, of course there will be some color variation between sealed and raw areas, but I doubt it will matter that much, and it's prolly not worth the extra $$$ to make it perfect. As long as you point that out to the HO, then you’re covered. If the HO’s goal is to just protect their investment, then sanding re-coating would do it. It they want it flawless, then they need to strip it. It’s their choice.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

GA Painter said:


> Thanks for your input NC. I am not familiar with that product. Are you saying to apply it over the existing coating?


Yes, its a pigmented clear coat. Sand whats flaking off, might need a bit of stain in the bare areas to help blend. The pigmented clear coat should help everything blend and look more uniform.


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## ligboozer (Oct 13, 2009)

LA Painter said:


> Without stripping, of course there will be some color variation between sealed and raw areas, but I doubt it will matter that much, and it's prolly not worth the extra $$$ to make it perfect. As long as you point that out to the HO, then you’re covered. If the HO’s goal is to just protect their investment, then sanding re-coating would do it. It they want it flawless, then they need to strip it. It’s their choice.


 
This. 


IMHO there is enough grain variation (type and direction) that will keep the eye from picking up any differences between raw and sealed areas.

X2 on the Sikkens, I have used their products extensively on some beachfront homes while I was in Canada, and have been very impressed with their products.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Those are some ugly azz doors..


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

give client what they want explain your concerns ,theses doors imho are not ready for an all out strip and restoration . lightly sand ,stain,the stain will only penetrate what little bare areas their are .wipe doors down let dry bla ,bla,then put your sealer on . what nc paint said sounds like a good approach. once the other guys get the job you be thinking well maybe i should have scuffed spot stain and sealed ,just saying man:blink:


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

I appreciate all your opinions. I am going to stick with my original recommendation. I will express to her my concerns and give her a price to just lightly sand, stain and seal. I will also give the option of the sikkens route.

Have any of you ever used http://www.generalfinishes.com/professional-products/water-base-exterior-finishes/exterior-450-outdoor-finish 

If so, what are your thoughts on the product? That is what I put on her front door at her request. I thought it went on nicely, but not sure about long term durability.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Stripping is necessary because they have Minwax stain on them. Minwax doesn't make an exterior stain for houses. That's why they are failing.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Sounds good but id be willing to call in that these doors do not have 4 coats of clear minimum and they were not recoated every 18 months.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Sounds good but id be willing to call in that these doors do not have 4 coats of clear minimum and they were not recoated every 18 months.


That's the truth, my climate experiences extreme heat, 120+ degrees. The sun beating on ext. woodwork kicks their azz. No matter what you put on them, except paint. I recommend clear coats/stains every 12 months. It cost $$ to keep that natural look.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> That's the truth, my climate experiences extreme heat, 120+ degrees. The sun beating on ext. woodwork kicks their azz. No matter what you put on them, except paint. I recommend clear coats/stains every 12 months. It cost $$ to keep that natural look.


Im sure extreme heat and direct sun would shorten it. We can successfully get away with 18 mo here in Cleveland. We enter anyone with these doors in the system for auto maintenance scheduling for a recoat in 18 mo. 

Its always best to find that point before the finish degrades too much that a simple recoat wont take care of them. Like the OP, those doors missed their mark because it got to "flaking."

Customers are surprised to learn these doors are high maintenance.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Stripping is necessary because they have Minwax stain on them. Minwax doesn't make an exterior stain for houses. That's why they are failing.


Minwaxs Gel stain is exterior 
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/wood-stains/gel-stain.html


http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/exterior-clear-protective-finishes/water-based-helmsman.html


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Double post


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Sounds good but id be willing to call in that these doors do not have 4 coats of clear minimum and they were not recoated every 18 months.


 I agree JP, it is really the clearcoat that makes the difference. The Minwax is not an exterior product and I have never seen it perform well outside, but that being said, it really doesn't know that it is outside if it is sealed under the clear properly. I have never had good luck with clearcoats exposed to the weather on the exterior. It is a very high maintenance deal. Not a lot of people are going to pay for several top coats and then reapply every 18 months. It's kind of like taking a beautiful piece of wood furniture and leaving it outside. It is also important to seal the doors on the reverse(garage interior) side as well.

NC-this Sikkens Window & Door. Is it a urethane? Like an exterior vamped up Polyshades? I do not have any experience with an exterior clearcoat that builds a finish that is pigmented. Tell me more........


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for the responses. You guys are right. I worked for the guy when these were done originally. They were stained with minwax and 2 coats of minwax spar urethane. Close to the 2 year mark, they were recoated one coat with same by my former boss. so in 3 years they have had a total of 3 coats (counting new construction).

Have you ever stained rough cut cedar with minwax stain and then coated with cwf? He has.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CliffK said:


> I agree JP, it is really the clearcoat that makes the difference. The Minwax is not an exterior product and I have never seen it perform well outside, but that being said, it really doesn't know that it is outside if it is sealed under the clear properly. I have never had good luck with clearcoats exposed to the weather on the exterior. It is a very high maintenance deal. Not a lot of people are going to pay for several top coats and then reapply every 18 months. It's kind of like taking a beautiful piece of wood furniture and leaving it outside. It is also important to seal the doors on the reverse(garage interior) side as well.
> 
> NC-this Sikkens Window & Door. Is it a urethane? Like an exterior vamped up Polyshades? I do not have any experience with an exterior clearcoat that builds a finish that is pigmented. Tell me more........


The fact that the initial bond with the substrate is compromised by a non exterior rated stain makes it so that the clear doesn't stand much chance. The stain can't take the uv and exposure range so it flakes and takes the clear with it. It's similar to bad primer or no primer as the initial substrate bond on paint grade. 

I know all of this because my neighbor had it happen on his new house a few years ago. Builder applied minwax to pine siding, painters top coated with spar. Within 6 months it was falling off the house. I contacted minwax and learned all the reasons why they don't recommend their stains on exterior other than lawn furniture and bird houses.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I've all ways had the understanding that Minwaxs products just suck in general. My opinion, it's a DIYer product like behr. That's why its on the shelf at HD


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

Sand them down, hit them with some brightener to kill the gray, wipe the exposed areas with existing stain, then three coats of your go to clear.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> The fact that the initial bond with the substrate is compromised by a non exterior rated stain makes it so that the clear doesn't stand much chance. The stain can't take the uv and exposure range so it flakes and takes the clear with it. It's similar to bad primer or no primer as the initial substrate bond on paint grade.
> 
> I know all of this because my neighbor had it happen on his new house a few years ago. Builder applied minwax to pine siding, painters top coated with spar. Within 6 months it was falling off the house. I contacted minwax and learned all the reasons why they don't recommend their stains on exterior other than lawn furniture and bird houses.


 I agree Vermont, but in my experience when I see this type of system failing it is the clearcoat that is failing and breaking down allowing moisture to penetrate. The color coat or stain seems fine until the moisture gets at it. I agree an exterior stain would provide more resistance, but I do not think the clear is failing and flaking because of the stain that is on the wood. Other than a 2 part clear epoxy system that you would see used on a wood canoe or boat, I haven't seen may clear coats that build a film perform well exterior without a crazy amount of maintenance and even then many fail in this environment. Maybe because we are close to salt water-I don't know, but I still do agree that Minwax is not the right choice for exterior application.

Have you any experience with the Sikkens Window and Door? What would be your system of choice? Would you use Penofin? Would you put a clear over it to get that depth of finish. Marine spar varnish? I know Aaron, from his posts, seems to do a lot of this down in Fla. I am sincerely interested. It has been a long time since I have seen an exterior clear coat system stand up well enough to justify the cost in this area. I usually say it's a sure way to make an enemy out of a good customer!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CliffK said:


> I agree Vermont, but in my experience when I see this type of system failing it is the clearcoat that is failing and breaking down allowing moisture to penetrate. The color coat or stain seems fine until the moisture gets at it. I agree an exterior stain would provide more resistance, but I do not think the clear is failing and flaking because of the stain that is on the wood. Other than a 2 part clear epoxy system that you would see used on a wood canoe or boat, I haven't seen may clear coats that build a film perform well exterior without a crazy amount of maintenance and even then many fail in this environment. Maybe because we are close to salt water-I don't know, but I still do agree that Minwax is not the right choice for exterior application.
> 
> Have you any experience with the Sikkens Window and Door? What would be your system of choice? Would you use Penofin? Would you put a clear over it to get that depth of finish. Marine spar varnish? I know Aaron, from his posts, seems to do a lot of this down in Fla. I am sincerely interested. It has been a long time since I have seen an exterior clear coat system stand up well enough to justify the cost in this area. I usually say it's a sure way to make an enemy out of a good customer!


Totally depends on the exposure. I do mostly clear houses. We have alot of Cabot and Penofin out on houses. We don't use Sikkens. For some applications that need more than penetrating oil, I go straight to serious marine grade, like Epiphanes, and even then (at $60/QT) I annually maintain, and they need it. Films are higher maintenance, penetrators are easier to maintain.


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

I was reading the TDS sheet on the sikkens door and window and found this (read last sentence) :

Preparation procedure for new, weathered and uncoated wood: Sand door and window
surfaces with 80-120 grit sandpaper. Hardwoods must also be wiped with acetone immediately prior to
application. Weathered wood affected with blue fungi or rust from nails may be treated by applying a solution
of 4 ounces of oxalic acid crystals in a gallon of warm water. This solution should be allowed to sit on the
surface for 15-20 minutes and scrubbed with a bristle brush before the final rinse with clean water.
Let dry 3 days before coating. Re-sanding may be necessary. Old damaged coatings must be completely
removed before application of Cetol Door & Window. Do not apply Cetol Door & Window over other
coatings.



NC, have you or your customers had much success with using over an existing coatings?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Cliff & GA, Sikkens Door and Window isn't really like most exterior clears. It stays somewhat soft. Even after full cure if you dig at it hard enough with your fingernail, you'll make a dent/scrape. The nice thing is that it stays flexible so its excellent for exterior wood, its also microporous. I've used it on fiberglass doors both stained with clear, and bare with the pigmented version. 

The only reason I would think they don't recommend it over previous coatings is that it's only as good as what its going over. I can call the chemists tomorrow and get a better explanation.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Is there a good exterior rated stain for under clear coats that is widely available?


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

GA Painter said:


> I gave a bid to do 3 garage doors for a homeowner on 4-8-11. I have been in contact with her a few times through email and phone since then. I just received an email from her saying my bid was thousands above the other 2 bids. they said they would like me to do it but would like me to give another quote using a different process unless I think it isn't a good idea.
> 
> The doors were originally done with a custom minwax stain mix and minwax spar urethane. The doors are now flaking and there are areas where the wood has turned gray. The doors were resealed by a guy I worked for previously about a year ago.
> 
> I stripped, stained and sealed her front door unit in late march with which she is very happy. My proposal for the garage doors was to strip the doors and start from the beginning. Two other painters(one i worked for, and another i know) both tell her a light sanding and reseal will be good. I disagree. Wood darkens over time obviously. My concern is that if the gray areas are sanded to fresh wood and then the rest of the door scuff sanded and then re-stain gray areas, the color is not going to be consistent(seen it before).


Where do you see a consistent, uniform color in there now? If you sand, brighten the gray areas to the original condition and spot stain it with the existing stain, I think the blend will be fine, at least far better than your competitors options of just sanding/clear coating, which is just going to leave freshly clear coated grayed areas, which will create color inconsistency. With all due respect, I think we're overthinking this.

Sorry guys and OP, didn't realize OP settled his mind and the subject changed slightly. Never mind:sleeping:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Is there a good exterior rated stain for under clear coats that is widely available?


 That is a good question, and I am glad I read this thread. I had no idea on minwax being no good for exterior. :whistling2:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think all the standard minwax, old masters, etc are fairly similar. They are mostly pigment stains, which us better than dye for UV exposure. I have pretty consistently read the worst things about minwax though in terms of topcoat adhesion failure, but that has been in regard to mainly interior products.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have used Zar for years with great results, but I have to drive 30 miles to get it. So when I am working locally its minwax. 

Some of you may remember that horse barn I did two years ago. The oak was done in minwax, and top coated with spar and it still looks great. Owner had me wash last week, and there were no failed areas. 

It is semi exposed, sorta like the door I was gonna stain tomorrow.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

If the varnish is flaking, then it needs to be properly striped off and start over. If you sand on current and apply varnish. It will fail.

Minwax Helsman does not come close to Marine varnishes.
It contains less UV inhibitor compare to those marine varnishes.

Even the best marine varnishes needs to be maintained every couple of years.
I've been told some boat builders strip their boat to bare wood every year, then 6 coats are applied.

What people do as a mistake is they wait until the finish fail. Maintain it when its still in good condition.Use a beat up 220 grit and sand entire surface, apply couples of coats.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

Has anyone used any water based exteriors clear lately?
Im really curious. With strict VOC regulations , eventually we all will be water base.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Zar exterior water base has a good rep around hear. Modern masters clear ext. Wb poly is another and the Sansin line (kind of like a wb sikkens). Sansin is a multi step and product system. I have not had a chance to do enough testing on all of these yet. I have a fresh batch of samples ready to go outside for testing though.


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## GA Painter (Jan 29, 2009)

I used general finishes exterior 450 on a front door unit. It is a water based sealer. I have only used it once and i liked the way it went on. I am not sure about long term durability. I posted a link for it in an earlier post.

anyone else used this product?


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## paintr56 (Jan 21, 2010)

http://www.painttalk.com/members/ga-painter-3032/ GA painter stick with what you think is the correct way to do this job. You may not get it this time, but let her know in a nice way that if she has future problems with the doors you would be more then happy to do the complete job at that time. She may or may not call, but you at least you know you won't be getting a call back to fix a job that you knew you were not doing how you thought it should be done.

Jim


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