# Should i sue a client for $700?



## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

A friend of mine who is a kitchen and bath designer referred me to one of his clients for painting. I meet with what appeared to me as a nice intellectual couple. Gave them a quote, they agreed and before starting the job i made them sign a one page contract.
They were renovating an old home and my task was to REPAINT the interior.
The contract specifically stated. Prime to be used ONLY on areas where new dry wall was installed or plaster repairs. 
He paid me 50% upfront before i started then i started work. I promised them that painting will be done within a week if not earlier.
While me and my guys were working they would come and compliment me regarding my attention to details. 
Total amount was i believe $3700 not including paint.
towards the end he paid me another amount making the total paid amount to $3000, (he still owned me $700).

I also told him that in case there were scratches during floor installation (which was done after painting) i would come back and touch up the areas for free. 
A week goes by, floor was installed then i call him to get the last $700 payment. 
When i get there he started giving me attitude saying i didnt do the job properly because baseboards were previewsly painted in oil and i just painted them semigloss without primer. 
Apparently he went to Benjamin Moore store and they told him that the guy who is painting your house is not professional because they should buy this and that product to remove oil paint first then prime and 2 coats of semigloss paint. 

I was trying to be calm and i asked him a very simple question: " Do you still have a copy of the contract or you want me to provide you with one?, It specifically says that i will only prime areas where there are plaster or new drywall installations, nothing more and nothing less. If i start priming the whole house you would have been paying more. However i can redo it by priming it first and then giving it two coats of semigloss even though it is not part of our contract" 
He then said: No i want you to remove the paint you have used first then when that paint is completely off you will prime it and give two coats of semi.
I said Sir that is impossible... then he got more agitated and asked me to leave his property.

I know it is just $700 but i have never been treated like that before.
I was aware of the fact that baseboards were previously painted in oil, and thats why i ordered a special formula that works best to stick as much as possible to oil. 
The owner did not have scratches on the baseboards. He was just pissed off because These idiots that call them selves professionals at the paint store told him that oil can not be repainted without a primer. Which is true. That is the best way to go about it, but when you do not have a budget for it and you don't mention it i will consider it a repaint and my best to prime whenever it is absolutely necessary. 

Again he did not have one single scratch on the baseboards. if you tried to nail scratch it nothing would have happened to the paint. I did offer to repaint the baseboards and he refused. 

Should i sue this client or not?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I didn't read your story, but you don't sue over 700 bucks you take them to small claims. which you both represent yourselves, no lawyers.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

You ordered a "special formula" ?


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## Steve Burnett (May 28, 2012)

Auolona said:


> A friend of mine who is a kitchen and bath designer referred me to one of his clients for painting. I meet with what appeared to me as a nice intellectual couple. Gave them a quote, they agreed and before starting the job i made them sign a one page contract.
> They were renovating an old home and my task was to REPAINT the interior.
> The contract specifically stated. Prime to be used ONLY on areas where new dry wall was installed or plaster repairs.
> He paid me 50% upfront before i started then i started work. I promised them that painting will be done within a week if not earlier.
> ...


It's not worth the hassle. I'd let it go.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

And tell him you added urine in the semi to make it stick to oil better.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

What Gabe said, sounds like they went over budget and are trying to recover their loss by shorting your pay.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Or they are pissed because he put water over oil and now they can not vacuum or mop the floors because the paint will come off..

Regardless of the customers budget, I would never skip chit knowing it will fail. If they can't afford to do it right then they should hold off till they can.

Pat


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

roominaday said:


> and tell him you added urine in the semi to make it stick to oil better.


dont give away my secrets. Goshh. Btw your supposed to add bear fecees as well


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> Or they are pissed because he put water over oil and now they can not vacuum or mop the floors because the paint will come off..
> 
> Regardless of the customers budget, I would never skip chit knowing it will fail. If they can't afford to do it right then they should hold off till they can.
> 
> Pat


Agree 100% but its far from reality. Had a customer today bring pictures of his deck. A stain nightmare...he asked what to do. I said it definitely needs to be stripped or whatever he puts over it will fail. He proceeded to ask me at least 10 different ways about what would happen if he went over it with different brand stains without stripping.....I said they would all fail. He didn't believe me and left.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

What process, and product did you use to get good adhesion to the substrate? Are there any bonding issues, or just gouges and scratches on the base because of the floor guys? Just trying to clarify. 

I know that the customer got what was in the contract, and what he paid for. But sometimes they ask for something that isn't in there best interest. Homeowners aren't born with a painting manual in there heads. Its up to us as the professionals to educate, and deliver a job that will perform. Otherwise don't do it.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> What process, and product did you use to get good adhesion to the substrate? Are there any bonding issues, or just gouges and scratches on the base because of the floor guys? Just trying to clarify.
> 
> I know that the customer got what was in the contract, and what he paid for. But sometimes they ask for something that isn't in there best interest. Homeowners aren't born with a painting manual in there heads. Its up to us as the professionals to educate, and deliver a job that will perform. Otherwise don't do it.


Schmidt, in his post he said he used a "special formula"


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I didn't read your story, but you don't sue over 700 bucks you take them to small claims. which you both represent yourselves, no lawyers.


When you take someone to small claims court, you are suing them! 
I do believe you can hire an attorney if you want to. 

Small claims in NJ is up to $2,000. 

Special Civil is up to $5,000.

Civil, sky is the limit!


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Yes, sue the bastard!


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

StripandCaulk said:


> Schmidt, in his post he said he used a "special formula"


Is that a private label, and who makes it?


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Is that a private label, and who makes it?


Idk, hopefully i can get my hands on it though it sounds intense. When i can tell my clients i have a special formula im going to sell so many more jobs


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

How many hours and time off from work will it require to go to court?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> When you take someone to small claims court, you are suing them!
> I do believe you can hire an attorney if you want to.
> 
> Small claims in NJ is up to $2,000.
> ...


small claims in Calif is up to 10 k and you represent yourself. and you right it is still a lawsuit.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Auolona,

I can understand a paint store commenting that it is common practice to apply a bonding primer over old oil to ensure proper adhesion, but you state there is no adhesion problems.

If you prepared the surface correctly (sand & wash), applied a product that was suitable and have no adhesion issues, you should prevail in a small claims type of setting.

Do you Canadians have Small Claims Courts?

If you feel you acted responsibly to provide a professional service (not ONLY fulfilling the contract, but fulfilling it PROFESSIONALLY), then by all means, do what you can to recoup your $700.

I would first write him and describe how your process was suitable and within acceptable standards and that you feel the paint store was NOT giving sound advice. If he refuses to pay, then gather all your evidence (including manufacturer's recommendations for the product use over oil) and file a claim.

He will try to prove you did NOT use the product in a manner as recommended by the manufacturer regardless of what the contract stated.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

ewingpainting.net said:


> small claims in Calif is up to 10 k and you represent yourself. and you right it is still a lawsuit.


Calif - $10,000 (effective January 1, 2012), except that a plaintiff may not file a claim over $2,500 more than twice a year. Limit for local public entity or for businesses is $5,000. $6,500 is the limit in suits by an individual against a guarantor that charges for its guarantor or surety services.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Well mate, in my opinion you should have prepared and primed the skirting boards before applying the topcoat. Skirtings tend to get a hammering from the mop and the broom, so it needs a really hard durable finish. If you have applied acrylic topcoat over oil based then it will scratch off.

The homeowner has a legitimate point of concern.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> Calif - $10,000 (effective January 1, 2012), except that a plaintiff may not file a claim over $2,500 more than twice a year. Limit for local public entity or for businesses is $5,000. $6,500 is the limit in suits by an individual against a guarantor that charges for its guarantor or surety services.


now that this is all cleared up.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Brian C said:


> Well mate, in my opinion you should have prepared and primed the skirting boards before applying the topcoat. Skirtings tend to get a hammering from the mop and the broom, so it needs a really hard durable finish. If you have applied acrylic topcoat over oil based then it will scratch off.
> 
> The homeowner has a legitimate point of concern.


But why did the homeowner wait until the job was done to complain?


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> Or they are pissed because he put water over oil and now they can not vacuum or mop the floors because the paint will come off..
> 
> Regardless of the customers budget, I would never skip chit knowing it will fail. If they can't afford to do it right then they should hold off till they can.
> 
> Pat


I have been putting latex over oil without priming successfully for years. The idea of priming an entire interior to ensure adhesion is ridiculous. To be successful, one must design a system that meets the needs and budget of the customer. That system will sometimes include a complete priming of the trim. Most of the time it will include scuffing and cleaning. This is a sufficient preparatory method for latex over oil. 

I'm becoming quite tired of some on this site pouring comments out as though they do everything "by the book". 

It's an implication that those of us who are simply attempting to perform a quality job at a competitive price are "hacks". 


_
_


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Brian C said:


> Well mate, in my opinion you should have prepared and primed the skirting boards before applying the topcoat. Skirtings tend to get a hammering from the mop and the broom, so it needs a really hard durable finish. If you have applied acrylic topcoat over oil based then it will scratch off.
> 
> The homeowner has a legitimate point of concern.


Another one!


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I notice the OP hasn't been back since dropping the deuce in this one..


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

epretot said:


> I have been putting latex over oil without priming successfully for years. The idea of priming an entire interior to ensure adhesion is ridiculous. To be successful, one must design a system that meets the needs and budget of the customer. That system will sometimes include a complete priming of the trim. Most of the time it will include scuffing and cleaning. This is a sufficient preparatory method for latex over oil.
> 
> I'm becoming quite tired of some on this site pouring comments out as though they do everything "by the book".
> 
> ...


Good point. Murallo Ultra _can_ do it. Scuff, clean & paint and you would be surprised at the adhesion. I prefer to use a bonding primer, and have only done that twice in 27 years because I'm old and to stubborn to change some of my ways. But you have a good point. 

I'm just curious what the "special formula" is.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Regardless if he did it properly or not, is irrelevant. His contract stated what work he was going to perform, and he did. Just because the customer changed their mind towards the end, or got a second opinion doesn't change the contract, or the payment. He can take them to court, and most likely win. $700 doesn't seem like alot of money, but on a $3700 job that's a big chunk of profit.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Good point. Murallo Ultra _can_ do it. Scuff, clean & paint and you would be surprised at the adhesion. I prefer to use a bonding primer, and have only done that twice in 27 years because I'm old and to stubborn to change some of my ways. But you have a good point.
> 
> I'm just curious what the "special formula" is.


Probably Emulsa Bond or some other adhesion promoter.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Auolona said:


> A friend of mine who is a kitchen and bath designer referred me to one of his clients for painting. I meet with what appeared to me as a nice intellectual couple. Gave them a quote, they agreed and before starting the job i made them sign a one page contract.
> They were renovating an old home and my task was to REPAINT the interior.
> The contract specifically stated. Prime to be used ONLY on areas where new dry wall was installed or plaster repairs.
> He paid me 50% upfront before i started then i started work. I promised them that painting will be done within a week if not earlier.
> ...


 I would just leave him a-lone-a.:whistling2:


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

NCPaint1 said:


> Regardless if he did it properly or not, is irrelevant. His contract stated what work he was going to perform, and he did. Just because the customer changed their mind towards the end, or got a second opinion doesn't change the contract, or the payment. He can take them to court, and most likely win. $700 doesn't seem like alot of money, but on a $3700 job that's a big chunk of profit.


The painter is the expert not the customer. 

The floor guy may have come in and said, "this paint is scratching off bad", "your painter didn't do the job properly". Then the customer got a second opinion with the paint store, and then chose not pay the balance of the work!


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

epretot said:


> Probably Emulsa Bond or some other adhesion promoter.


Latex Kliz would do the trick!


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Customer would be the defendant and probably wins in court. IMO for $700 just forget about it and move on. The plaintiff can also be counter sued and therefore the painter may end up paying the customer if they can prove how the paint is failing.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Regardless if he did it properly or not, is irrelevant. His contract stated what work he was going to perform, and he did. Just because the customer changed their mind towards the end, or got a second opinion doesn't change the contract, or the payment. He can take them to court, and most likely win. $700 doesn't seem like alot of money, but on a $3700 job that's a big chunk of profit.


I respectfully disagree. WE are the professionals, WE are the ones who are responsible to know the parameters of the products we use. If I were to use the wrong paste and the paper fell off the walls, who is to blame ? I fulfilled my contract by "applying paste and hanging the paper on the wall"
The customer rightfully expects me to know my products and parameters.

The OP was charged to apply one coat of "latex" over oil. According to him there are NO adhesion issues, so he has a leg to stand on. HOWEVER, you said, "Regardless if he did it properly or not, is irrelevant." Doing it properly is absolutely relevant, IMO. And I'll wager it is relevant to a judge. 

Now, if the OP had recommended a bonding primer and the HO said NO, then the OP would need a signed statement indicating what he recommended and what the HO demanded. As professionals, we need be held responsible for using products within their parameters.


IMO


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> Latex Kliz would do the trick!


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

daArch said:


> I respectfully disagree. WE are the professionals, WE are the ones who are responsible to know the parameters of the products we use. If I were to use the wrong paste and the paper fell off the walls, who is to blame ? I fulfilled my contract by "applying paste and hanging the paper on the wall"
> The customer rightfully expects me to know my products and parameters.
> 
> The OP was charged to apply one coat of "latex" over oil. According to him there are NO adhesion issues, so he has a leg to stand on. HOWEVER, you said, "Regardless if he did it properly or not, is irrelevant." Doing it properly is absolutely relevant, IMO. And I'll wager it is relevant to a judge.
> ...


Honestly in that situation dont even sign off that you recommended a bonding primer. Dont do the job. Court system doesnt give a chit what you used, or didnt use. They dont know the difference.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Up to you to decide if 700 is worth it to go to claims over. The first step would be to try to do what you can with good communication to resolve the issue as it is your name he is now spreading around. If that is a lost cause then go to the court house and file the papers and lose a day while there, use your contract and any and all emails between you. Or say screw it and just move on.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

many years ago I did a bunch of work for a crusty old Yankee. A great man of principle and great wealth. When a contractor did what he thought was wrong, he'd sue. The amount was not the issue, but the other person's word was.

I was fond of that guy.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I don't know about you guys, but here you can check the Manitoba Court Registry online.

http://www.jus.gov.mb.ca/Domain/FileSearch/SearchByOtherInfo.aspx

I run most customers and GC's, etc through this. Its only happened once, but a name brought up a whole bunch of suits. Red flag. 

Justified or not, I would want to keep my name off those records.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

epretot said:


> Another one!


Well good on you for bagging a fellow painter that does things properly. Mod deleted insult


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I usually prime what needs to be primed. It's just the way I do things, call me crazy.

Good luck with the collections/situation.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I usually prime what needs to be primed. It's just the way I do things, call me crazy.
> 
> Good luck with the collections/situation.



What if its not in your budget errrr I mean the customers budget? :whistling2:

Pat


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Brian C said:


> Well good on you for bagging a fellow painter that does things properly. Mod deleted insult.


Simply pointing out that from in front of a computer monitor it's easy to tell everyone to do something a certain way or do that a certain way. You're "bagging" everyone else without knowing all of the details. You know as well as I do there could be several methods to ensure a quality job besides priming everything. 

Additionally, the paint has come a long way since you started painting in 1950. There are products that are engineered for this exact application. It is your responsibility as a professional painter to know the current products available to you as to design a system that suits your customers needs. 

Mod deleted insult If you are going to insult me...do it properly- Monsters Inc.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

epretot said:


> I have been putting latex over oil without priming successfully for years. The idea of priming an entire interior to ensure adhesion is ridiculous. To be successful, one must design a system that meets the needs and budget of the customer. That system will sometimes include a complete priming of the trim. Most of the time it will include scuffing and cleaning. This is a sufficient preparatory method for latex over oil.
> 
> I'm becoming quite tired of some on this site pouring comments out as though they do everything "by the book".
> 
> ...


The problem with painting latex over oil is that 95% of latex/acrylic paint can't do it. Period. I believe there are some that might in ideal situations, but never over 100 percent of the area. I paint behind hacks that espose that latex over oil is alright because there wasn't enough money in the budget. So you want to go trash all the trim in a home including doors because there wasn't enough money in the budget? It's cheap and cutting corners. I want you to go scarify and tape test trim on a full door casing on one side including trim to wall edge. Make sure there was a good color change so you can truly tell. When you peel off even 2 percent of the paint, you should re-evaluate your decision. When I said, 95%, i was being conservative, it's probably nearer to 100%.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

For those who have neglected to read the posting rules, insults and name calling are not considered to be respectful.

we can close the thread if you wish.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> The problem with painting latex over oil is that 95% of latex/acrylic paint can't do it. Period. I believe there are some that might in ideal situations, but never over 100 percent of the area. I paint behind hacks that espose that latex over oil is alright because there wasn't enough money in the budget. So you want to go trash all the trim in a home including doors because there wasn't enough money in the budget? It's cheap and cutting corners. I want you to go scarify and tape test trim on a full door casing on one side including trim to wall edge. Make sure there was a good color change so you can truly tell. When you peel off even 2 percent of the paint, you should re-evaluate your decision. When I said, 95%, i was being conservative, it's probably nearer to 100%.



Para, with respect I once more disagree with the way things were when I was still painting and before the resins of today were refined.

In the 70's, one could not successfully adhere the latexes to the existing oil paint surfaces. This was our mantra and we spent many hours educating both homeowners and hacks. That old crusty yankee I mentioned took a previous painter to court because the latex they applied over an oil was peeling off in rubbery sheets. Yes, that's the way it WAS.

Today's top quality 100% acrylics CAN adhere to oil IF properly prepared. You must establish an good mechanical bond by sanding. AND there are some waterborne primers that can and do bond well to oil satins without too much prep.

that said, one of my painting buddies ("Slap Dash" we call him) just throws Aura or whatever over old lead paint with no prep. That does not adhere. A moderate impact and it falls off.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Put yourself in the homeowner's shoes. He got spooked by what he considers another professional's opinion. If your technique works for you and you have a track record of that (latex over oil), then go back a few years to customers you have done it for. Call them and ask if everything has held up and give those names to this guy. Its not that he "ran out of money" or other things that have been implied. He doesn't pay for something that, in two years may be a nightmare for him. Surely you can understand his viewpoint. You have to put his mind at ease. If you don't have the data to back up your claim of it working out okay in the long run.. chalk it up to experience and move on.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Put yourself in the homeowner's shoes. He got spooked by what he considers another professional's opinion. If your technique works for you and you have a track record of that (latex over oil), then go back a few years to customers you have done it for. Call them and ask if everything has held up and give those names to this guy. Its not that he "ran out of money" or other things that have been implied. He doesn't pay for something that, in two years may be a nightmare for him. Surely you can understand his viewpoint. You have to put his mind at ease. If you don't have the data to back up your claim of it working out okay in the long run.. chalk it up to experience and move on.


Good perspective and solution, Ken :thumbup:


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## the paintman (Feb 3, 2012)

The op must be a novice or simply a ghost by not showing back up. 

anyways if thier is no paint failure he has a case and the owner is probably an oppurtunist. I meet them type once or twice a year. Usually i see it coming and anticpate and avoid trouble. One of the most common techniques is to have one spouse play front person and handle the contract/work stage and the other spouse the back end for the acceptance and pucnch out stage and final payment. Usually its the wife first and the husband takes over. (He hates to part with his money) It's a fairly common tactic for chiseler types.

Anyways this is one of the oldest paint failures known to painters, since latex/acrylic paints came out. Of course as all have mentioned its all about the prep. And thier is no way around painting latex over oil at some point in your career. So I suggest you follow these steps and charge for it or pass on the job totaly. If you do any kind of commercial interior work or health care interior work thier is no way you can use oil paint in these situations. (even if you have a paint company write the specs). Like others have mentioned you have to be the expert and educate them. 

And they were all painted with oil during construction. Because that is the way its done. So I come along and I got to convert. In fact the maintenance guy(s) in most cases have already started the process and usually adhesion problems are already present and noticable. 

But if I am lucky enough to get it before they have screwed it up its a simple process involving a lot of elbow grease. Power sand where possible. Hand sand the difficult to reach areas. It needs wiped any way so we use liquid sandpaper or Gloss Off which we have found to be really effective. And then we full prime with a tenacious Acrylic Bonding Primer. 

Prior to painting I have found for my own insurance that I do a key test on as many areas as I can prior to proceding with paint. Mainly because our jobs are sometimes large and have found that even honest guys get tired of sanding or rush over things and half ass sand. It has to be 100% on every step all the way to the bottom of doors and casings. That is where the wheelchairs and vacumes hit the most. 

And I throw in a good dose of honesty. I let them know this is what has to be done and they still may have some problem areas due to the size of the job. It works for me.

Finally one quick true story. This will hlep some of you. I never paint a job or give a warranty where they have done thier own pressure washing and i am the painter. BUT i made an exception one time for a large apartment complex because they just payed 4000 bucks to pressure wash and thats when they found out they also needed painted bad. They insisted they were not going to pay it again and I could see thier point. So we needed the work bad at the time. I simply wrote the contract with a caveat that, " I was in no way responsible for adhesion issues to substrates below my paint, since we did not pressure wash prior." they accepted. We changed the color of the place and painted 15 or 16 buildings. They screwed me on a change order in the end to the tune of about 1000 bucks for additional work above and beyond. I gave a 1 yr warranty. And predicted ahead of time i would hear from them assholes again. 

Sure enough 11 months later they were crying foul saying paint was peeling. "IN several areas." I knew what they were talking about before i went to investigate. The previous painter painted over chalky walls. I took a black sock with me. peeled the paint flipped it over. Wiped the chalk and took several pics of the chalky sock and the previous color on the flipped over sock. Proving it was not my paint peeling. So glad we changed colors. Wrote them a letter with a copy of my original proposal (with caveat) and also invited them to bring any other expert they wanted in to verify my results. Also reminded them that they still had an invoice oustanding that anyways voided any warranty since i was not payed in full in the first place. 

Ladies and gentlmen this was a big corporation and a big complex with adhesion problems all over. I am just a small fry in comparison. I told them had i pressure washed i would have uncovered the problem and blasted it all off for them. BOTTOM LINE. i NEVER HEARD FROM THEM AGAIN. And from that point on all my proposals say. "warranty in effect after final payment has been recieved". ChaChing. They had no case. The knew the failed payment in the end would have sunk them in court in front of any judge. Sometimes you can turn a loss in to a gain. Rewrite your warranties i suggest.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

daArch said:


> Para, with respect I once more disagree with the way things were when I was still painting and before the resins of today were refined.
> 
> In the 70's, one could not successfully adhere the latexes to the existing oil paint surfaces. This was our mantra and we spent many hours educating both homeowners and hacks. That old crusty yankee I mentioned took a previous painter to court because the latex they applied over an oil was peeling off in rubbery sheets. Yes, that's the way it WAS.
> 
> ...


You do realize I am advocating using a latex primer correct? That or a hybrid topcoat. Latex topcoat over oil topcoat equals fail.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> I notice the OP hasn't been back since dropping the deuce in this one..


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


>




Treats this place like his customers. 

Can you take those 4 posts back...he can sue you for them.


.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> You do realize I am advocating using a latex primer correct? That or a hybrid topcoat. Latex topcoat over oil topcoat equals fail.



yes, I understand that you were talking about ACRYLIC TOP COATS not being suitable, I contend with proper surface prep (sanding or even deglossing) to give a good mechanical bond, one would achieve good adhesion with modern top quality 100% acrylics.

I mentioned the primers as an addendum to that line to remind all that little prep is needed with some of those bonding primers. I did assume you understood that proper primers did exist and are suitable for good adhesion..

BTW, when you say latex, that word encompasses some waterbornes that would NOT be suitable. We all use the word latex, but erroneously. As latex (a natural product from rubber trees) is not used in paints. And "latex" in our world has come to denote paints with acrylic, PVA, and or acrylic styrene resins. I have been trying to steer away from that word and be more exacting in what I recommend.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

So which acrylic trim paint can be painted over oil without priming first? Lets get this figured out. 

And, what prep is needed before this can be done?

And what happens if your prep isn't at 100%? Say you miss a few spots here and there. 

Even if you convinced me that there are trim paints that can do this, I don't think you're going to convince me that it's less work to do it, plus after it's all said and done, you are left wondering if it's going to hold up.

VS:

decent prep: clean grease and dirt, can skip sanding in most cases if needed, quick bonding primer coat, then topcoat. No worries when finished. 

Seems like the priming scenario has the best going for it. Reduces the amount of sanding by a huge amount, sets up a great base for topcoat which means it's going to look better, no worries of failure when finished. Seems like I save time and future worry about failure with this option, plus it's going to look better. 

Yeah, I like being old school. 

Now if they really did come out with a acrylic topcoat that truly worked directly without a huge amount of prep required, I wouldn't hide my head in the sand about it. 

Thanks.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I always prime going over oil, and I would never do the job without priming over oil. because all my top coats are waterborne

oh and i still like mac and cheese


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You're upset that the paint guys told them about the right way to do the baseboards, yet you agree with what they said (your words), plus you are upset that the homeowner is upset that it wasn't done correctly? 

I know you said it wasn't "in the budget" to prime it before top coating but perhaps you should have educated the customer about the need for it and then perhaps you could have done it correctly, made some additional money, and had a satisfied client. If he still wouldn't have wanted to pay for a correctly done job, you could have had him initial a statement absolving you of any liability for paint failure caused by skipping the priming. I find that when I ask a customer to do something like that, they can suddenly find room in their budget to have it done correctly. If not, you've covered your azz.

Yes, you followed the letter of the contract, and can likely take him to small claims court, but I'm not sure you should. Maybe $700 is getting off cheap compared to rectifying the situation.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Bill, i like you. You hang wallpaper and are a recognized expert in your field. I'm pretty damn good in mine. I have tested and seen the folly with all brands of acrylics, styrene etc, directly over oil tops without primer-and I am calling your bull. 

As we say here in aggieland, that's some bad bull.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

OP is gone, so I guess it doesn't matter.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> So which acrylic trim paint can be painted over oil without priming first? Lets get this figured out.
> 
> And, what prep is needed before this can be done?
> 
> ...


pfft... old school is so... well, old school.

Surely Behr must have one out by now. :yes:

I not only like mac and cheese, I love UMA - not necessarily together though.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

place a mechanics lien and then take him to small claims court.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wood511 said:


> OP is gone, so I guess it doesn't matter.


 
And since when did that ever stop us from beating a topic to death?


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Just read page 2. I guess there was more to it.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Home owner has legit reason for not paying.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> Bill, i like you. You hang wallpaper and are a recognized expert in your field. I'm pretty damn good in mine. I have tested and seen the folly with all brands of acrylics, styrene etc, directly over oil tops without primer-and I am calling your bull.
> 
> As we say here in aggieland, that's some bad bull.


we disagree. That's fine. I respect you and your experience.

I have had acceptable results with both California and the latest generation of Moore paints in my home over oil - PROPERLY sanded. 

That's not to say I would follow the same procedures on a customer's house. I think shortcuts like that are folly. But we are debating whether it is possible, not advisable.

I think TJ touched on a good point. It probably isn't quicker to PROPERLY prepare an oil for a top coat with any waterborne.

This may not be related, but can I assume you would have no problems putting a waterborne top coat on like Fresh Start alkyd primer ?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I would not stake my reputation or respect by implementing any practice that could not be 100 percent replicatable in systems by employees.


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## the paintman (Feb 3, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> So which acrylic trim paint can be painted over oil without priming first? Lets get this figured out.
> 
> And, what prep is needed before this can be done?
> 
> ...


If I read this correct and you saying you can skip sanding you are so dead wrong. That is the one mistake i see made the most. Even by so called "professional painters" . If you don't do anything else that is the single best thing you can do. In fact oil or oil or latex over latex people think they don't have to sand. Why? Because no one likes to sand. So lets find a way around it. NOT! Now I know your all a bunch of hacks if you don't agree with that.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

the paintman said:


> If I read this correct and you saying you can skip sanding you are so dead wrong. That is the one mistake i see made the most. Even by so called "professional painters" . If you don't do anything else that is the single best thing you can do. In fact oil or oil or latex over latex people think they don't have to sand. Why? Because no one likes to sand. So lets find a way around it. NOT! Now I know your all a bunch of hacks if you don't agree with that.



I'd say cleaning and dulling any hard shiny surface are the most important when using a bonding primer. 

The way I clean these types of surfaces both dulls and cleans simultaneously. So, sanding isn't always necessary, even though I sometimes do if my professional opinion warrants it. 

Drop the crap talk you crusty old battle axe.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

the paintman said:


> If I read this correct and you saying you can skip sanding you are so dead wrong. That is the one mistake i see made the most. Even by so called "professional painters" . If you don't do anything else that is the single best thing you can do. In fact oil or oil or latex over latex people think they don't have to sand. Why? Because no one likes to sand. So lets find a way around it. NOT! Now I know your all a bunch of hacks if you don't agree with that.


1. Yes, sanding sucks. But who sands every sq. in. of every surface they paint over? 

2. Sherwin Williams has a latex primer @ $55 per gallon, that allows you to paint over - ceramic tiles and the smoothest, none porous surfaces, with amazing adhesion.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> The problem with painting latex over oil is that 95% of latex/acrylic paint can't do it. Period. I believe there are some that might in ideal situations, but never over 100 percent of the area. I paint behind hacks that espose that latex over oil is alright because there wasn't enough money in the budget. So you want to go trash all the trim in a home including doors because there wasn't enough money in the budget? It's cheap and cutting corners. I want you to go scarify and tape test trim on a full door casing on one side including trim to wall edge. Make sure there was a good color change so you can truly tell. When you peel off even 2 percent of the paint, you should re-evaluate your decision. When I said, 95%, i was being conservative, it's probably nearer to 100%.



I'll be happy to do that. In fact, I'll do it Monday when I return to the job. I painted 10 doors that were previously painted with oil on Friday. I sanded the doors, cleaned them and allowed them to dry prior to painting. The color wasn't changed. However, the tape will reveal pieces or paint if it didn't bond properly.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

daArch said:


> For those who have neglected to read the posting rules, insults and name calling are not considered to be respectful.
> 
> we can close the thread if you wish.


O.K point taken, but I thought painters were real men and not easily offended. Anyway my insult was very mild mannered.


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## Beth16 (May 23, 2012)

I'm Beth and I have painted waterborne paint over oil. 
October 2011 I did a previously-painted in oil kitchen cabinet redo. For a busy family with four children, a dog, two cats and they USE their kitchen.

Using TSP, we wet-sanded every square inch of the painted surfaces. This takes care of cleaning and sanding in one step. Rinse, tack, repair dings. Spot-primed repairs and the little bare wood existing with oil primer, sand again, caulk, paint two coats with wb ProClassic semi. I also painted the kitchen ceiling and walls and refinished their counter tops.

Was back last week to stain their deck, asked how everything was holding up. Perfect, as it happens. :thumbsup: A couple of hours after the first coat was applied, you couldn't scratch a molecule of paint off the surface; it was tight. I'm old-school too but over the years have found that a thoroughly sanded and cleaned substrate will hold the right type of waterborne finish just fine. Most of my work is word-of-mouth or repeats; I stay in touch with many of my clients and some have become friends (in fact one is now an employee LOL) so I can often keep tabs on how various finishes are holding up.

That said it seems the OP dropped the ball somewhere along the line and it would probably be futile to attempt collection for what is a relatively minor pay-off.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Folks, 

The OP got attacked for his "system". His question had to do with whether his contract would hold up in court. His "system" isn't on trial. No wonder he disappeared.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

epretot said:


> Folks,
> 
> The OP got attacked for his "system". His question had to do with whether his contract would hold up in court. His "system" isn't on trial. No wonder he disappeared.



His system failed and that's why he got stiffed 700 bucks. Think about it for a minute, why was the owner at the paint store trying to find out what happened after the floor guys came in and scraped the paint off the baseboards. He did what the typical homeowner does and put water over oil. The guys at the paint store pointed this out and this is why every one laughed at him because he is a so called expert. 

I don't blame the homeowner one bit, he put his faith into someone who said he was a professional only to get scammed by a clown.

Pat


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> His system failed and that's why he got stiffed 700 bucks. Think about it for a minute, why was the owner at the paint store trying to find out what happened after the floor guys came in and scraped the paint off the baseboards. He did what the typical homeowner does and put water over oil. The guys at the paint store pointed this out and this is why every one laughed at him because he is a so called expert.
> 
> I don't blame the homeowner one bit, he put his faith into someone who said he was a professional only to get scammed by a clown.
> 
> Pat


You are being disingenuous. 

His "system" DID NOT FAIL. He never stated that it failed. The flooring guys scratched, scuffed, nicked, damaged, etc. the base board. I suppose after painting baseboards using your "system" it is impervious to any type of damage? Are you saying had he used oil or primed first, the flooring guys would not have been able to scratch, scuff, nick, or damage the top coat in any way?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Im so over this thread.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Im so over this thread.


That implies that you were into it at some point.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> That implies that you were into it at some point.


Or under it...


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Or under it...


With that avatar...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> With that avatar...


I love being under salma.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I love being under salma.


Who wouldn't?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> Who wouldn't?


This guy from cali


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> 1. Yes, sanding sucks. But who sands every sq. in. of every surface they paint over?
> 
> 2. Sherwin Williams has a latex primer @ $55 per gallon, that allows you to paint over - ceramic tiles and the smoothest, none porous surfaces, with amazing adhesion.


 Zinsser has it for 14.00 a gal!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm in the process now on dealing with 20 interior doors and all the fluted trim through out the home.use to be stained and varnished and previous hack painter painted right over it all with oil paint without sanding slick finish.You can take your thumbnail and scratch it right off!Ended up cleaning substrate,sanded and applied Peel stop to stabilize it.Followed up with latex Gripper and Pro classic latex as finish coat.safe and sound.You couldnt pull it off with duct tape or scratch it off with your fingernails.:yes:


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

mudbone said:


> Zinsser has it for 14.00 a gal!


Yes, I know about 'Bin' in red and blue cans!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Kills2. 'nuff said.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

One example of an acrylic coating that is spec'd to apply over oil, among other surfaces, without priming. 

TAB #12 Cabinet CoatTM
Urethane Acrylic Satin Enamel CC-45XX Series

Glossy Surfaces – Although Cabinet CoatTM is formulated to be applied to hard to coat surfaces without the need for sanding, it is recommended that proper surface preparation still be completed to enhance adhesion properties. Surfaces such as Melamine Laminate, Formica®, ceramic tile and glossy painted surfaces should be properly deglossed.
Previously Painted Surfaces: No primer is needed if surface is in good condition. Clean or sand as described above. Spot prime bare spots with an initial coat of Cabinet Coat®. Melamine Laminate or Formica®: No primer needed. Lightly sand with fine sandpaper. Remove sanding dust with tack rag.
Ferrous Metal: Prime bare spots with metal primer.

Cabinet CoatTM is the ultimate finish for refurbishing dingy kitchen and bathroom cabinets, shelving, furniture, trim & crown molding and other interior applications that require an ultra- smooth, factory like finish with long lasting beauty. Its super adhering quality allows painting "hard to stick" surfaces, even polyurethane and varnish, without using a primer


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'd reckon here's another. 

A versatile, ultra-durable water-borne acrylic, BREAK- THROUGH!®, is formulated to bond to some of the most difficult substrates including fiberglass, laminate, and many plastics. The interior/exterior satin finish offers very fast dry and FASTBLOCKTM technology that ensures outstanding early block resistance for increased productivity with less down time. BREAK-THROUGH provides hardness similar to or better than standard alkyds with a low VOC formula, but maintains flexibility to endure extreme bends and deformation without cracking and peeling. BREAK- THROUGH is ideal for doors, windows, cabinets, shelving, hand rails, fixtures, trim, wood and concrete floors.

Of course sanding / deglossing is still necessary. 

Coatings achieve adhesion by mechanical and / or chemical bonding. Sanding creates the profile for mechanical bonding. The chemical makeup of the coating provides the chemical bonding. Why else would bonding primers work? Because they have the ingredients to create a chemical bond. Of course not all acrylic enamels have the resins for achieving a good bond chemically, but some do. At least that's what I believe to be true at this moment in time. I am not a chemist, if I were I'd probably have a better retirement and benefits package....


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

:hammer: This thread :hammer:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As an example of acrylic paints spec'd to be applied directly to "previously painted surfaces" by the manufacturer, and based on this particular BM's tech sheet for Regal Acrylic Semi Gloss (scroll to Regal N333) http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-contractors/master-list-of-technical-data-sheets-tds I'd say the OP would win a small claims case.

That is of course his "contract" wasn't just some pretty do it yourself EXCEL sheet that his wife or girlfriend made up for his "business", and isn't worth wiping someone's rear end with, without an actual contracting license.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> Kills2. 'nuff said.


Yep, I said Kilz in an earlier post. When in doubt, Kilz it!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Can cabinet coat be tinted?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Can cabinet coat be tinted?


Yes, at least in light colors. I think the benefit of Advance is that it's tint-able in all colors.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I've read the whole thread and was very interesting. First of all, floor guys are animals....they will destroy baseboards no matter what paint or system was used. It sounds to me like the problem here was what the paint store said....again. I don't know if paint stores are just trying to sell more primer or if they are really just not educated about what they are selling, but you do not need to use a primer to paint acrylic paint over oil based coatings. Sure, it's great to tell a homeowner to use a primer because they really don't know how to sand properly for sure. The primer is added insurance for them and a good thing to suggest, but to tell someone that your painter is a hack because they didn't prime is really unfair. I would want to find that store and have a chat with that person there who doesn't paint for a living screwing around with my livelihood. I have painted directly over oil with C2, Grahams and Benjamin Moore satin finishes and all of them adhere just fine as long as you sand. If the surface is clean and dull, the paint will stick. I think we are still giving advice about this from 10 or 15 years ago when paints of today are far better at sticking than they used to be. 

And quit joking around with the Kilz2 comments! People that don't know anything about paint are liable to think that stuff is actually a decent primer.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Carl said:


> And quit joking around with the Kilz2 comments! People that don't know anything about paint are liable to think that stuff is actually a decent primer.


You might have a point, although I think that anybody who decides to use a product from a joke in one post without any other research or experience for guidance may have what they get coming to them.

JMO.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Damon T said:


> Yes, at least in light colors. I think the benefit of Advance is that it's tint-able in all colors.


And yet the benefit of Cabinet coat sounds like a faster recoat time and return to service.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I have sanded the chit out of old oil base finished surfaces. I have yet to find a latex paint that will stick to my satisfaction. I always do a surface adhesion test and 90% of the time you can easily scratch it off. The products I have tested is just about all the lines of Benjamin Moore finish paints.

The guys at my local store know more about painting then half the freaking so called professionals out there.

For all those who love to put latex over oil, please keep doing so. Its more work for me when the customer calls me out to fix your chit 

Pat


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

ROOMINADAY said:


> And tell him you added urine in the semi to make it stick to oil better.


There are special formulas designed to adhere to oil paints. Educate your self then post ignorant comments.


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## snkd (Dec 29, 2011)

I am not sure this painters system was good or bad. He sounds like most of us, lost his temper when given an objection to his work. 99 times out of 100 these are not HO's questioning your quality work. They need to be educated on what work was being performed and why in that manner. This is were your paint rep should have been the next call to help mediate between to create a good situation and understanding for each person involved. The rep should know your system and work quality and help resolve it. He has a mutual interest it is his paint you applied. I have done this many times, ocassionally it does cost me a little more time but I have always come out with another customer with repeat work. He now knows the commitment of my company and paint store to make sure the HO's needs are taken care of. The last thing that should ever be looked at is court this usually never helps anyone involved.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm so over this thread. :blink:


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

Carl said:


> I've read the whole thread and was very interesting. First of all, floor guys are animals....they will destroy baseboards no matter what paint or system was used. It sounds to me like the problem here was what the paint store said....again. I don't know if paint stores are just trying to sell more primer or if they are really just not educated about what they are selling, but you do not need to use a primer to paint acrylic paint over oil based coatings. Sure, it's great to tell a homeowner to use a primer because they really don't know how to sand properly for sure. The primer is added insurance for them and a good thing to suggest, but to tell someone that your painter is a hack because they didn't prime is really unfair. I would want to find that store and have a chat with that person there who doesn't paint for a living screwing around with my livelihood. I have painted directly over oil with C2, Grahams and Benjamin Moore satin finishes and all of them adhere just fine as long as you sand. If the surface is clean and dull, the paint will stick. I think we are still giving advice about this from 10 or 15 years ago when paints of today are far better at sticking than they used to be.
> 
> And quit joking around with the Kilz2 comments! People that don't know anything about paint are liable to think that stuff is actually a decent primer.


AS in every other forum there would be A***H*** that pretend to know everything. 
Here is the whole story about the "special formula"
X company in Toronto/Canada has a contract with the city of Toronto to paint all apartment buildings that are owned by the city and rented to low income families. Usually when tenants leave the apartments the conditions are a disaster. This company simply can not afford to prime and paint these units 2 coats since the city has a low budget for these kinds of apartments. So they had to come up with a paint that didnt require primer and it would cover all sorts of stains with two coats maximum.
They paid thousands to glidden and Sherwin Williams to come up with this formula. They would never tell you the formula and you could get this paint only if it was ordered by this painting company or if you had a work order.
I had three gallons left and i used them for this client. 

Why i didnt tell him that baseboards needed primer? Well when i discussed prices he acted as if he just wanted the house to get a simple refreshin coat of paint indicating that he didnt want to spend to much money. 

Some "professionals" here suggest to tell clients what proper painting requires. Well proper painting means prime the surface first whether it is new drywall oil or eggshell/semigloss. Thats the only way to do it "properly" 
How many of you go by the book?? Nobody..


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Lets see, this property management company doesn't have the money to pay for repainting it's units but it has the money to pay a paint manufacturer to develop it's own custom paint for it's exclusive use?

Seems legit.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

Carl said:


> I've read the whole thread and was very interesting. First of all, floor guys are animals....they will destroy baseboards no matter what paint or system was used. It sounds to me like the problem here was what the paint store said....again. I don't know if paint stores are just trying to sell more primer or if they are really just not educated about what they are selling, but you do not need to use a primer to paint acrylic paint over oil based coatings. Sure, it's great to tell a homeowner to use a primer because they really don't know how to sand properly for sure. The primer is added insurance for them and a good thing to suggest, but to tell someone that your painter is a hack because they didn't prime is really unfair. I would want to find that store and have a chat with that person there who doesn't paint for a living screwing around with my livelihood. I have painted directly over oil with C2, Grahams and Benjamin Moore satin finishes and all of them adhere just fine as long as you sand. If the surface is clean and dull, the paint will stick. I think we are still giving advice about this from 10 or 15 years ago when paints of today are far better at sticking than they used to be.
> 
> And quit joking around with the Kilz2 comments! People that don't know anything about paint are liable to think that stuff is actually a decent primer.


Carl as i mention in my post i did offer to repaint it to his satisfaction, Either use prime + oil or prime + latex..... He said he wanted me to remove my paint first with some magical liquid that the benjamin store guys sold him then once the baseboards were "cleaned" i could repaint it. It was clear he was trying to save his $700 bucks.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

Steve Burnett said:


> It's not worth the hassle. I'd let it go.


That's what i did. just wanted to see what would other people do in a similar case. I am positive i could have won the case in small claims court but it wasn't worth it.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

BrushJockey said:


> I notice the OP hasn't been back since dropping the deuce in this one..


 I did today my friend.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> The painter is the expert not the customer.
> 
> The floor guy may have come in and said, "this paint is scratching off bad", "your painter didn't do the job properly". Then the customer got a second opinion with the paint store, and then chose not pay the balance of the work!


here is the funny part. I asked him to show me a scratch and there were none. Flooring guys did a good job it was the sales people at the store


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Auolona said:


> here is the funny part. I asked him to show me a scratch and there were none. Flooring guys did a good job it was the sales people at the store



Why was he at the store in the first place? he just decided "ah what the the hell, let me run down to the paint store to see if I can get any ammo so I can stiff this guy 700 bucks? 

in other words how did this even become a issue if there were no issues? Sure would love to hear the other side of this coin here.

Pat


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> Think about it for a minute, why was the owner at the paint store trying to find out what happened after the floor guys came in and scraped the paint off the baseboards.
> 
> Pat



People like you jump into conclusions without reading the entire post. That is what makes me sick. 
I spent time to explain what happened and you just read a few lines and call me a clown? ? 

There were no scratches on the baseboards from flooring guys. I tried to nail scratch the paint my self and nothing happened. It was a decent adhesion for a water based paint on oil.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> Put yourself in the homeowner's shoes. He got spooked by what he considers another professional's opinion. If your technique works for you and you have a track record of that (latex over oil), then go back a few years to customers you have done it for. Call them and ask if everything has held up and give those names to this guy. Its not that he "ran out of money" or other things that have been implied. He doesn't pay for something that, in two years may be a nightmare for him. Surely you can understand his viewpoint. You have to put his mind at ease. If you don't have the data to back up your claim of it working out okay in the long run.. chalk it up to experience and move on.


He had 2 years warranty for this project.
I offered to repaint them and he refused insisting " now i will have to hire someone else which is gone cost me more then $700" 
We are talking about the baseboards of livingroom.. He was going to pay someone more then $700 for the baseboards?

Another thing i didnt mention is that all trims doors were painted the same way. 2 coats water base on top of oil. He said : "why did you prime everything else and you left the baseboards only"  at this point i knew i wasn't getting paid and i didnt feel like arguing with him about the fact that everything was painted the same way and he was complaining only about baseboards.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Auolona said:


> Carl as i mention in my post i did offer to repaint it to his satisfaction, Either use prime + oil or prime + latex..... He said he wanted me to remove my paint first with some magical liquid that the benjamin store guys sold him then once the baseboards were "cleaned" i could repaint it. It was clear he was trying to save his $700 bucks.


Here's the deal. Putting primer over a coat that has poor adhesion will not make the job any better. Your as strong as your weakest link. Either you have excellent adhesion and no need to fix anything or you destroyed the HOs trim. I'm more interested in what my work looks like way down the road. 

For the record you CAN create enough mechanical adhesion by sanding and creating tooth, but you will never promote chemical adhesion by using acrylic topcoat over oil topcoat.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

....


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Auolona said:


> He had 2 years warranty for this project.
> I offered to repaint them and he refused insisting " now i will have to hire someone else which is gone cost me more then $700"
> We are talking about the baseboards of livingroom.. He was going to pay someone more then $700 for the baseboards?
> 
> Another thing i didnt mention is that all trims doors were painted the same way. 2 coats water base on top of oil. He said : "why did you prime everything else and you left the baseboards only"  at this point i knew i wasn't getting paid and i didnt feel like arguing with him about the fact that everything was painted the same way and he was complaining only about baseboards.


Sounds like you got screwed. Sorry bud. I don't know enough to have a clue as to what will help you. In my experience painting acrylic over oil has to many chances for issues and I don't promote it. Even if it works for you, it obviously didn't work out for you. 'Nuff said.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Are you more concerned about your reputation or your friends ( kitchen and bath designer ) ?

I can understand why you decided not to sue. Not only will this effect your reputation with the community but also his since he referred you.

There is only 1 thing I'm having trouble with why did he go to the paint store to get their opinion?

So let me get this straight. Your saying that he wanted oil base paint on the base board went to the paint store and had the guys behind the desk accuse you of being a hack so he could stiff you of final payment?

I have found this to be a very educational thread
and thank you for sharing. Not trying to be an a.. h... but it's a little confusion of his REAL intent.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Yea you should probably re-read the original post. It sounds like there was nothing wrong with the paint that the painter applied. The paint store just told the customer that the method used by the painter was wrong and that is where the problems started....that, or the customer was just trying to weasel out of paying the 700 bucks.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

robladd said:


> Are you more concerned about your reputation or your friends ( kitchen and bath designer ) ?
> 
> I can understand why you decided not to sue. Not only will this effect your reputation with the community but also his since he referred you.
> 
> ...


Exactly - there must have some sort of concern on the homeowners part for him to check your methods at the paint store. If there was no failure on the baseboards then how did he get these concerns? 

If a job was done right, the customer does not run to the paint store after job is done to look for reasons get out of paying the bill. Something happened.

The fact that he asked you to remedy the problem for you to get the final payment says there was no intent to stiff you. To me he just wants the job done right.

Pat


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## snkd (Dec 29, 2011)

If this "special Formula paint" is created and sold by a paint company ie. Glidden or Sherwin Williams that caused all the confusion why would you not get them involved? Instead just letting the home owner go off what ever was said by a Ben Moore person that didn't even know the product. Did you and HO get along thoughout the entire project. Why now? If he did just go weird at the end and has no justification than yes go to the ends of the earth to get the money. Specially if you think you might have to pay for someone else to repaint it. Did your friend have any problems getting paid for his services?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Special paint? Not hardly. Like a poster said before, if they're already cutting corners/can't afford things, they are NOT paying a major manufacturer R&D to develop a product specifically for them....that the manufacturer could also make millions off of. Now I'm going to straight up call BS on this entire thread. Everyone else has eluded to it, I'll throw the flag.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The longer this thread goes, the more questions arise. Interesting. As an exercise, I'm going to try and understand this thread. Too early for TV.


Known-Contractual agreement between customer and painter was to spot prime only bare areas, i.e. wood, drywall, etc., and to apply trim paint.

Unkown-Did the contract specify a waterborne coating system that included using a WB bonding pimer for the spots, and a self priming acylic product like BM Regal for the existing oil based trim?

Unkown-What brand of product did you use, and does the tech sheet specify self priming over "previously painted surface"?

Known-Customer was pleased enough with the coating system chosen and the procedures, to pay 50% of $3,700 up front, compliments through out job for workmanship, and $1,150. after the work was completed, minus the $700.

Unknown-How did the customer determine to withhold $700?

Unkown-did the customer in fact get his info from the BM store, or did he fabricate this to get out of paying. And why suddenly, not want to pay given the above knowns?

Unkown-Did you get your material from the same BM store that the customer went to?

Known-Benjamine Moore sells products like Regal Acrylic Semi Gloss that specify self priming over previously painted surfaces provided they are clean of contaminants and an application of the recommnded two coats 

In conclusion:
If you applied a similar product to BM, with similarly stated prep and application recommendations on the tech sheet, and if the coating on the base boards is in fact not showing signs of improper bonding due to inadequate preparation and application, then the customer has no grounds to withhold nearly 20% of of his promised obligation to you.


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## snkd (Dec 29, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Special paint? Not hardly. Like a poster said before, if they're already cutting corners/can't afford things, they are NOT paying a major manufacturer R&D to develop a product specifically for them....that the manufacturer could also make millions off of. Now I'm going to straight up call BS on this entire thread. Everyone else has eluded to it, I'll throw the flag.


:hangONE


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Special paint? Not hardly. Like a poster said before, if they're already cutting corners/can't afford things, they are NOT paying a major manufacturer R&D to develop a product specifically for them....that the manufacturer could also make millions off of. Now I'm going to straight up call BS on this entire thread. Everyone else has eluded to it, I'll throw the flag.


This thread is getting better, I'm glad I stuck with it, and:

Already said it here (first):whistling2:


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> Yep, I said Kilz in an earlier post. When in doubt, Kilz it!


 
I just wanted to repost this:thumbup:


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

StripandCaulk said:


> I just wanted to repost this:thumbup:


Actually the new Kilz that VP reviewed and tested sounds like a great product.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> This thread is getting better, I'm glad I stuck with it, and:
> 
> Already said it here (first):whistling2:


I know, I gave your post a plug in mine dude :-D


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> I know, I gave your post a plug in mine dude :-D


Thanks man but... you coulda mentioned my name... (I'm ok though)


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Thanks man but... you coulda mentioned my name... (I'm ok though)


I didn't know you had a name anymore, just thought you were going by your avatar.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Actually the new Kilz that VP reviewed and tested sounds like a great product.


 
I read that article a while back from scott, i liked what he had to say and i repsect his reviews. Id be inclined to give it a shot. 

Until then "kilz2 nuff said":blink:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

StripandCaulk said:


> I read that article a while back from scott, i liked what he had to say and i repsect his reviews. Id be inclined to give it a shot.
> 
> Until then "kilz2 nuff said":blink:


Dude, it's "kills2". Rocking it wif $12/gal what?


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Dude, it's "kills2". Rocking it wif $12/gal what?


I think i just hernietated a disc in my lower back. on the floor. LMAO

phuckin right


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wackiest Thread Award for the second quarter goes to....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Wackiest Thread Award for the second quarter goes to....


RH,

What makes this thread interesting is the underlying theme that exposes a cross roads between adapting to the new generation of waterborne paint technology, verses adhering to paint application procedures that have been the standard since the 1950's, if not earlier.

What complicates this issue, and creates as much polarization as political ideology, is the movement for a healthier global environment via reduced VOC's and the compromised craftsmen quality, and contractor liability, when proven products of the past are rendered obsolete, and in many cases illegal to obtain.

Add in the paint manufacturer who has to comply with the air quality regulations and be competetive at the same time, painters are left with little choice but to use self priming DTM's and waterborne enamels, unless they charge a premium for oil base, or charge more for the extra coat of acrylic primer. Homeowners just don't want to pay for this.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh it's been interesting alright. My reference was more towards how it's been all over the place and it's overall tone.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

this thread has disproved BOTH "evolution" and ""intelligent design"

It had survived without the influence of either.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I love this thread because it mirrors life. All over the place and doesn't make much sense.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I may be the only one, but I don't see how the supposed BM employees could be critical of the OP to the customer, thus causing the OP to lose $700!, while at the same time offer waterborne enamel products that don't require an additional "bonding" primer. This is an example of hipocrysy (spelt wrong possibly, BWGAF)


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Is this the right thread to mention that Ferrari built a car for Eric Clapton?

It's more than $700 though.


----------



## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Auolona said:


> here is the funny part. I asked him to show me a scratch and there were none. Flooring guys did a good job it was the sales people at the store



Why would the guy go to the paint store if there was no problems?
Why would he be discussing the baseboards (with a paint store), after the job was completed?
How did the customer know that the baseboards were originally painted in oil?
I normally don't tell a customer that I am using oil or latex unless they ask.
The only thing I ever use, in oil, is Kilz or Coverstain. 

He probably wasn't worried about a scratch, more so the work failing over time. I understand customers wanting the job done the most cost effective way. I've ran into tons of those types.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Wackiest Thread Award for the second quarter goes to....


 Wackiest or Hackiest?:whistling2:


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> Yes, I know about 'Bin' in red and blue cans!


 I thought that was "Bud and "Busch.":blink:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Can cabinet coat be tinted?


 They also have there own base colors.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> Sounds like you got screwed. Sorry bud. I don't know enough to have a clue as to what will help you. *In my experience painting acrylic over oil has to many chances for issues and I don't promote it.* Even if it works for you, it obviously didn't work out for you. 'Nuff said.


You shouldn't even paint oil over oil without thoroughly sanding.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Auolona said:


> That's what i did. just wanted to see what would other people do in a similar case.* I am positive i could have won the case in small claims court but it wasn't worth it.*


I wouldn't count on it! If the customer brings in an 'expert witness' that states, 'he did the job wrong', you lose. You get an A-hole judge, and he cracks that gavel, and states, "the plaintiff has no credibility", you're done! 

I know in your eyes, you know what you are doing, but its actually the party who can prove a better case that wins! :thumbsup:

Because judges want to be treated like royalty, sometimes its hard to get a word in during a lawsuit! Lawyers / Judges and the whole system, can go <bleep> themselves!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> I have sanded the chit out of old oil base finished surfaces. I have yet to find a latex paint that will stick to my satisfaction. I always do a surface adhesion test and 90% of the time you can easily scratch it off. The products I have tested is just about all the lines of Benjamin Moore finish paints.
> 
> The guys at my local store know more about painting then half the freaking so called professionals out there.
> 
> ...



The thing about the acrylic resins is that they develop adhesion over time. You can scratch Zinsser 123 or any other bonding primer, and cabinet coat for that matter, with your fingernail the next day. If you come back in a week or two you can't. Most of these products address this in the TDS.


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## pucks101 (Mar 29, 2012)

daArch said:


> this thread has disproved BOTH "evolution" and ""intelligent design"
> 
> It had survived without the influence of either.


So what you're saying is that we basically have years upon years of experience unimpeded by progress...


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## Dave (Jan 6, 2008)

Very amusing thread, although, it appears that the Paint Talk Forum has been unable to resolve the issue.....therefore it needs to go to court.....to be continued, on the next JUDGE JUDY!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Today I am continuing on OUR front room project. (as soon as I get my PT and Coffee fix). 

The trim was (badly) painted with oil. (Although smells like lead when I sanded some, it tested negative) 

I will test some processes. On the spandrel wall (triangular wall under the stairs) the stringer trim will be washed and sanded thoroughly and 100% Acrylic s/g applied w/o primer (remember, I'm also testing Behr Premium Plus Ultra, so that will be a double test). The baseboard on the spandrel will be washed, sanded, primed with XIM Prime Start, and top caoted with the same BEHR.

There will be some ceiling trim where I will slap dash some primers and top coat - maybe wipe the dirt off. 

results won't be posted until paints have had time to cure.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> Today I am continuing on OUR front room project. (as soon as I get my PT and Coffee fix).
> 
> The trim was (badly) painted with oil. (Although smells like lead when I sanded some, it tested negative)
> 
> ...


Bill, just in case you can't read the directions on the can, I'll post this data sheet for BPPU http://www.behrpro.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/3750_R0312.pdf

Cure time is 4 weeks before any testing be done. GL


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

daArch said:


> Today I am continuing on OUR front room project.


:huh: I figured you'd be slammed with people spending money again?


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Well Well Well...I disappear for 4 days to have a baby and come home to realize I helped launch Armageddon.

How delightful.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

epretot said:


> Well Well Well...I disappear for 4 days to have a baby and come home to realize I helped launch Armageddon.
> 
> How delightful.


Congratulations ....

on birthing BOTH.

Did you have a natural or a C-section.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> Congratulations ....
> 
> on birthing BOTH.
> 
> Did you have a natural or a C-section.


Expecting natural only to have a C-section. I'll put a post up later showing the little guy off.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

epretot said:


> Expecting natural only to have a C-section. I'll put a post up later showing the little guy off.


Congratulations!!!:thumbup:


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Wood511 said:


> OP is gone, so I guess it doesn't matter.


I'm enjoying reading this thanks.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

robladd said:


> Are you more concerned about your reputation or your friends ( kitchen and bath designer ) ?
> 
> I can understand why you decided not to sue. Not only will this effect your reputation with the community but also his since he referred you.
> 
> ...


Initially he didn't sound concern with "proper painting". His house was old and he was mainly concerned about the price. So i thought if i give him the option of priming he would think i am trying to make the job sound difficult and milk more money from him. I hear many people pretending to be ethical and caring mostly about the clients and their reputation. Today is all about competition. You dont give them a good price they will go somewhere else. 
If you tell them its better to prime and it will cost you more 8/10 times you will lose the contract. 
Thats why i specifically mentioned in the contract that only new drywall and plastered areas would have been primed.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Auolona said:


> Initially he didn't sound concern with "proper painting". His house was old and he was mainly concerned about the price. So i thought if i give him the option of priming he would think i am trying to make the job sound difficult and milk more money from him. I hear many people pretending to be ethical and caring mostly about the clients and their reputation. Today is all about competition. You dont give them a good price they will go somewhere else.
> If you tell them its better to prime and it will cost you more 8/10 times you will lose the contract.
> Thats why i specifically mentioned in the contract that only new drywall and plastered areas would have been primed.


You have to be competitive, but also do the work properly. If I mixed water and paint 50/50 and unknowingly sold it to you at a better price than the competition, would that be okay wth you?

I mean hey, its competitive right?


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> Exactly - there must have some sort of concern on the homeowners part for him to check your methods at the paint store. If there was no failure on the baseboards then how did he get these concerns?
> 
> If a job was done right, the customer does not run to the paint store after job is done to look for reasons get out of paying the bill. Something happened.
> 
> ...


Again you need to read my posts before making your self sound .... 
Despite everything he claimed i did not argue but i offered to repaint the baseboards the way he wanted them to be done "eventhough the contract stated i was not obligated to do so" He said he wants me to remove the paint i painted with first then restore baseboards to its previews conditions then prime. Does it sound like he is concerned with the quality here? Or may be trying to find excuses not to pay??


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> You have to be competitive, but also do the work properly. If I mixed water and paint 50/50 and unknowingly sold it to you at a better price than the competition, would that be okay wth you?
> 
> I mean hey, its competitive right?


:thumbup:
I do that with behr, then i put it in aura cans and sell it to the south of the border guys


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

snkd said:


> If this "special Formula paint" is created and sold by a paint company ie. Glidden or Sherwin Williams that caused all the confusion why would you not get them involved? Instead just letting the home owner go off what ever was said by a Ben Moore person that didn't even know the product. Did you and HO get along thoughout the entire project. Why now? If he did just go weird at the end and has no justification than yes go to the ends of the earth to get the money. Specially if you think you might have to pay for someone else to repaint it. Did your friend have any problems getting paid for his services?


He loved everything about what i did at his house. I have no freaking clue what happened to him. When my job was done He wasnt picking up the phone i had to go there 3-4 times to get a hold of him.
As i said a company i was working before use this formula to paint city houses. I have used this paint before and never had problems. Since the paint was made for another company not mine i cant get them involved. 
Listen this was not a big project. I dont even care about the money. I just wanted to share it with others and thats it. This became a huge thread, because some people started trolling and pretend to be more catholic than the Pope.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

Known-Contractual agreement between customer and painter was to spot prime only bare areas, i.e. wood, drywall, etc., and to apply trim paint.

Unkown-Did the contract specify a waterborne coating system that included using a WB bonding pimer for the spots, and a self priming acylic product like BM Regal for the existing oil based trim?* Contract specified "Primer to be used ONLY on new drywall and plaster repaired areas"*

Unkown-What brand of product did you use, and does the tech sheet specify self priming over "previously painted surface"? Mentioned earlier Glidden. *No there was no specifications since this paint was used by another company which uses it specifically for the same purpose. I have used this paint before and it worked fine. Of course priming the surface would have been ideal for bonding. Lets put it this way. This paint had the capability to adhere better than other acrylics you would buy in a paint store.*

Known-Customer was pleased enough with the coating system chosen and the procedures, to pay 50% of $3,700 up front, compliments through out job for workmanship, and $1,150. after the work was completed, minus the $700.* Initial deal was $3200. I added $500 to the contract because down the road Client requested me to repaint the poor job other painters did in the kitchen. He paid first half of the $3200 then he gave me another amount holding a $700 until the kitchen was done.
* 

Unkown-did the customer in fact get his info from the BM store, or did he fabricate this to get out of paying. And why suddenly, not want to pay given the above knowns? *No clue*
 
Unkown-Did you get your material from the same BM store that the customer went to? *No*

Known-Benjamine Moore sells products like Regal Acrylic Semi Gloss that specify self priming over previously painted surfaces provided they are clean of contaminants and an application of the recommnded two coats 
*That is why i wonder why they would make it sound impossible 
*


----------



## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

CApainter said:


> RH,
> 
> What makes this thread interesting is the underlying theme that exposes a cross roads between adapting to the new generation of waterborne paint technology, verses adhering to paint application procedures that have been the standard since the 1950's, if not earlier.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right


----------



## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> Lets see, this property management company doesn't have the money to pay for repainting it's units but it has the money to pay a paint manufacturer to develop it's own custom paint for it's exclusive use?
> 
> Seems legit.


It's not a management company but a painting company. There are at least 1000 appartment buildings owned by the city. 1000 x #of units do the math. Its a multli million $ contract. Yes it is worth paying 20 K to the paint company if they are going to save money with labor.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Auolona said:


> It's not a management company but a painting company. There are at least 1000 appartment buildings owned by the city. 1000 x #of units do the math. Its a multli million $ contract. Yes it is worth paying 20 K to the paint company if they are going to save money with labor.


So whats so good about the "special formula" that was developed? 

Whats the perk?


----------



## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

StripandCaulk said:


> So whats so good about the "special formula" that was developed?
> 
> Whats the perk?


Maximum hide. Two coats would cover everything and anything. Kilz is nothing compared to this paint. And it has a semi finish not flat. Adheres 50% better than any other paints i have tried from BM or SH.W. Of course preparation required. My friends used to call it "the monster"
All i know its done by glidden and they used to order it by code. No name.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Auolona said:


> Maximum hide. Two coats would cover everything and anything. Kilz is nothing compared to this paint. And it has a semi finish not flat. Adheres 50% better than any other paints i have tried from BM or SH.W. Of course preparation required. My friends used to call it "the monster"
> All i know its done by glidden and they used to order it by code. No name.


Right..so obviously theres a drawback to it otherwise it would be on the shelves everywhere.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Sorry but this is complete bs.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Sorry but this is complete bs.


NO ITS NOT DUDE< ITS SPECIAL FORMULA!!!!!!!!! PHUCK!!!!:gun_bandana:


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

I have nothing to say, I just saw how big this thread was getting and wanted to be part of something big.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

pacificpainters.com said:


> I have nothing to say, I just saw how big this thread was getting and wanted to be part of something big.


Hey Michael, you're part of PT. That should be more than enough. :whistling2:


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Nope, it just ain't worth the headache!


----------



## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> Here's the deal. Putting primer over a coat that has poor adhesion will not make the job any better. Your as strong as your weakest link. Either you have excellent adhesion and no need to fix anything or you destroyed the HOs trim. I'm more interested in what my work looks like way down the road.
> 
> For the record you CAN create enough mechanical adhesion by sanding and creating tooth, but you will never promote chemical adhesion by using acrylic topcoat over oil topcoat.


I have never denied in this thread the fact that priming would have been the best choice. Considering the conditions of the trim (very old), HO's budget and the contract signed i feel i had no liability. At the end of the day it is a business. I am hired to do whats in the contract nothing more and nothing less.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Auolona said:


> I have never denied in this thread the fact that priming would have been the best choice. Considering the conditions of the trim (very old), HO's budget and the contract signed i feel i had no liability. At the end of the day it is a business. I am hired to do whats in the contract nothing more and nothing less.


There is a major flaw in your logic. I have no idea on how you can think like you think. YOU ARE THE *PROFESSIONA**L*!!!!!. It is your job to educate the customer. The customer is hiring you because he trusts your judgement and knowledge and feels you know what your doing. I can pretty much guarantee if he knew you were going to screw his baseboards all up he would have never hired you. 

Come on man, think about it. Sheeze.....

Pat


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> There is a major flaw in your logic. I have no idea on how you can think like you think. YOU ARE THE *PROFESSIONA**L*!!!!!. It is your job to educate the customer. The customer is hiring you because he trusts your judgement and knowledge and feels you know what your doing. I can pretty much guarantee if he knew you were going to screw his baseboards all up he would have never hired you.
> 
> Come on man, think about it. Sheeze.....
> 
> Pat


Pat,

Auolona never indicated in this thread that the base boards were actually screwed up. It was the homeowner who assumed Auolona applied the paint incorrectly to the base boards because he didn't use a supplemental primer first. This was based on information the homeowner received from a Benjamin Moore employee. In fact, Auolona said the paint was adhering just fine for a self priming product. A technology, by the way, that is widely available to homeowners and professional painters alike by major manufacturers in the industry.

Are we to keep the option of self priming products from the homeowners because product integrity like Benjamin Moore's WB Regal Semi Gloss Enamel are not to be trusted to perform per application recommendations, as stated in the product data sheets. And if this were true, wouldn't Benjamin Moore be liable for false advertisement. And why would they legally bind themselves in that document if it wasn't tru? 

The point is, as long as these products are available and advertised by the suppliers as a means of reducing labor that in turn benefits the consumer, who are we as professionals to deny that to the homeowner. 

If Auolona had used a well recognized product rather then some mysterious super paint, this debate could focus more on whether we as professional painters can trust this new technology, or revert to what we're used to doing even if it may not be necessary.

And if any lesson was learned in this thread, it would be that the extra step of priming, despite using a self priming product, may be good insurance for high impact areas like baseboards. It may be true that Auolona didn't provide that insurance, but he can't be accused of improper application because the customer didn't pay for that insurance. 

My insurance company provides me with good coverage in the event that I suffer an unfortunate mishap. However, I don't have flood or earthquake coverage. Does this make State Farm Insurance company any less professional because I chose not to pay for that coverage?


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Pat,
> 
> Auolona never indicated in this thread that the base boards were actually screwed up. It was the homeowner who assumed Auolona applied the paint incorrectly to the base boards because he didn't use a supplemental primer first. This was based on information the homeowner received from a Benjamin Moore employee. In fact, Auolona said the paint was adhering just fine for a self priming product. A technology, by the way, that is widely available to homeowners and professional painters alike by major manufacturers in the industry.
> 
> ...


CA- while your comparison of insurance to paint jobs makes some sense, i would still disagree with you and tend to agree more with pat here.

Unless you have it in writing and singed off on that you are doing things wrong(signed by the HO), in todays shape of world its going to fall on the contractor. 

Insurance industry is documented by thousands of pages on exclusions and limitations per policy. You sign off on all of that.

You can say you dont take the risk because they didnt want to pay for it..or you can avoid the situation like this in the first place. Think thats pats point, in which id agree with.

Personally, i have a problem with that logic. I wont work for someone that doesnt want to pay to do it right. Even if i sign off on it with them, whats to say they arnt going to tarnish your reputation? When a person starts talking, they are going to talk 10x as much about a negative expierence than a positive one. All the headaches to work it out, not worth it IMO. Choose your markets. 

Walking away and saying, " o well he couldnt afford to do it that way so thats why theres a problem". That doesnt look good for business


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> *
> 
> Item 1*.CA- Unless you have it in writing and singed off on that you are doing things wrong(signed by the HO), in todays shape of world its going to fall on the contractor.
> 
> ...


Counter point to items:

*1. *Auolona specified "spot prime bare areas only" in his contract because he was using a self priming WB finish product. A product that exists everywhere in this industry because it does not require a pre prime step in the painting process according to their published data sheets. How do you conclude that the homeowner was signing off on something that was "wrong" when Auolona, by all counts was following proper recommended procedures for the self priming product.

*2.* It's great that you'll only sell the insurance of a prime coat to the homeowner, but it still doesn't make Auolona wrong or unprofessional for adhering to the system he chose based on the manufacturers recommendation and application procedures.

*3.* The homeowner assumed there was a problem based on information from a third party. There was no evidence according to what Auolona posted here that suggested that in fact there was a problem. 

The homeowner panicked because of misinformation from the BM employees and Auolona got screwed out of $700.00


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not here to defend Auolona. For all I know this mysterious paint formula he supposedly used doesn't exist. However, the main premise here is a self priming product, that according to major paint manufacturers doesn't require a supplemental prime coat, was used and a homeowner complained after the fact. 

The question is, do these products work as published, or is it false advertising where legal action should be taken against the paint manufacturers to stop these false claims.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CA- Im not trying to throw the guy under the bus, i read all of his statements. In his OP he even said the best way to do it would be to use a primer over oil.

To my knowlege there are not any WB finish products that do not require a primer over oil (advance may be the exception but that is a hybrid). Self priming? That term isnt universal, they list the exemptions on the can. Given the OP used a "special formula"(which we still dont have the name of) no one has any idea what he used. 

Id agree it is an unfortunate situation, but if he had used a bonding primer, documented in contract before topcoat. There would be no questions.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> To my knowlege there are not any WB finish products that do not require a primer over oil (advance may be the exception but that is a hybrid). Self priming? That term isnt universal, they list the exemptions on the can. Given the OP used a "special formula"(which we still dont have the name of) no one has any idea what he used.
> 
> Id agree it is an unfortunate situation, but if he had used a bonding primer, documented in contract before topcoat. There would be no questions.


Check out the tech sheets for Regal Premium N333 and 551 http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-contractors/master-list-of-technical-data-sheets-tds documents

These products do exist without specified limitations over oil base.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

*Difficult Substrates: *Benjamin Moore & Co. offers a variety of specialty primers for use over difficult substrates such as bleeding woods, grease stains, crayon markings, hard glossy surfaces, galvanized metal or other substrates where paint adhesion or stain suppression is a particular problem 

Doesnt specifically say oil..think it would be pretty easy to say oil fits in there though. No where does it say it was specified for going over oil. If it failed and you went to court, that is grey enough where the contractor would loose. 

I used muralo ultra when i was back east and there were no specific limitations on that either..most cans dont. 

CA bottom line is he got screwed, its not to have a pissing contest over whos right. Just to make sure it doesnt happen again right? Think we can find a common ground there.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The point you're missing SC is, professional painters are applying WB Enamels and DTM's (eg. PPG Pitt Tech) on commercial, industrial, and residential projects without using supplemental primers more often then you'd think. This doesn't make them any less professional then you. With that said, your system of always applying a primer underneath a self priming product will definitely insure you in good standings with the your customers. And your premium for doing so will no doubt excel you to financial independence.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> The point you're missing SC is, professional painters are applying WB Enamels and DTM's (eg. PPG Pitt Tech) on commercial, industrial, and residential projects without using supplemental primers more often then you'd think. This doesn't make them any less professional then you. With that said, your system of always applying a primer underneath a self priming product will definitely insure you in good standings with the your customers. And your premium for doing so will no doubt excel you to financial independence.


Whats the substrate? All over oil? 

Im not saying that self priming coatings cant be applied professionaly without suplemental primers. Im talking about this example.

Most of the people i know when going over poly with paint or oil with paint use a primer underneath for bond. Regaurding legal terminology on the manufacturer specs, that isnt a "premium". Rather recommended. The "difficult substrates" is a very loose term. I had problems using proclassic over oil two years back, i didnt use a primer..ended up failing. Cost me some coin. But i was told that it would work. Sanded up all the oil, cleaned it. Still was comming off with contact.

Im open to skipping that process, if you have a list of products that will work im all ears.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm not even reading more of this thread. I think I got to 1st 20 and gave up, but I see it keeps getting top billing so here's what you do.

Create a clause in your contract that will stop this from ever happening again....but name it after the person.. and let them know about. Highlight it, mail him/her signed copies from others, trademark the clause. 

Also buy Craftsman Manual, PDCA Membership and COPS - just sayin....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SC,

You really didn't have to enlarge or highlight the text for me. I had my reading glasses on when I pulled up the Benjamin Moore site and was able to read the same thing, but thanks.

I think the common ground is not only to agree that it would be prudent to apply a supplemental bond coat prior to using a self priming/finish on base boards, but also that a self prime/finish product without the use of a supplemental prime coat is considered a legitimate painting application. And, that contractors cannot therefore be liable for hearsay.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> I had problems using proclassic over oil two years back, i didnt use a primer..ended up failing. Cost me some coin. But i was told that it would work. Sanded up all the oil, cleaned it. Still was comming off with contact.
> 
> Im open to skipping that process, if you have a list of products that will work im all ears.


I could understand your concern of not priming given your experience with the Proclassic. However, I don't believe Proclassic is self priming according to the TDS http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777535257/ or am I missing something. You just may have to enlarge the text on your response.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I could understand your concern of not priming given your experience with the Proclassic. However, I don't believe Proclassic is self priming according to the TDS http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/PDS/en/035777535257/ or am I missing something. You just may have to enlarge the text on your response.


Did i offend you by enlarging the text somehow?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> Did i offend you by enlarging the text somehow?


No offense, just thought it was a little dramatic.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SC,

Did you find anything about that self priming Proclassic interior trim?


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> SC,
> 
> Did you find anything about that self priming Proclassic interior trim?


Nope, its not self priming to what i know of anyway. I took the word of a hombre who had used it over oil without problem, think ive actually read somewhere on here a couple of people were using it no problem as well.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Fun playing detective here 

Basically I'm just trying to read though the lines here. This is how I'm coming up with my conclusion that something must of happened to the baseboards to give the owner a concern - I know he said there was nothing wrong with them but not sure I believe him by what took place.

One thing I keep seeing is he never even brought it up to the HO. He just assumed that the customer was on a tight budget and he needed to give rock bottom price. In the OP mind, he is in a market where the cheap price wins every bid. In my market the cheap bid wins about 10% of the time.

So when he was scared to talk about the proper way to do the job because he was in fear he would loose the job is where he made his mistake. I'm pretty sure if you read about the self priming paints they say "self priming on most substrates" this does not mean all substrates. 

CAPainter - Your insurance comparison is not really a good one in my mind as when you sign the papers you have the ability to see all the details. The OP never even mentioned this so when the HO signed the contractor it was in good faith that the job was going to be done right.

I compare it to you getting your oil changed in your car. You show up to the shop, you sign the contract that says you getting your oil changed. When they are finished you notice they changed your oil with some else s used oil. I bet you would be pissed. They bust out the contract and say we changed your oil just like it says here. You never asked us if we would use new oil. And besides you told us you were on a tight budget so instead of us loosing you as a customer we used this method.

One last thing and that's ethics. It seems a few in this thread do not have it. I would never deliberately do something that I know will fail in a short time. I would eat it and do what ever it takes. I'm a man of my word and this is how my reputation is built. If somebody hires me to do a professional job then that's what they get. I have worked for free for days because I have underestimated something. My reward is I did the right thing. I came up with the price so it completely falls on me.

Pat


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> Fun playing detective here
> 
> Basically I'm just trying to read though the lines here. This is how I'm coming up with my conclusion that something must of happened to the baseboards to give the owner a concern - I know he said there was nothing wrong with them but not sure I believe him by what took place.
> 
> ...


It took me a while to figure this out. I can't prove it...but I'm pretty sure Pat and Paradimz are the same person. I'm thinking this is done in an effort to increase their "thanks" or to possibly always have at least one person in the thread to agree with their comment.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

epretot said:


> It took me a while to figure this out. I can't prove it...but I'm pretty sure Pat and Paradimz are the same person. I'm thinking this is done in an effort to increase their "thanks" or to possibly always have at least one person in the thread to agree with their comment.


lol - we are just having fun playing detective that's all. I really have no idea what really happened just as everyone else in this thread. Just guessing and If I'm wrong at all then my apologies to the OP. It's nothing personal, its just there's always two sides to a story and we only have one to go by.

Pat


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I thought the debate was no longer about Auolona and his mystery paint, but more about self priming interior trim paint and whether it's ethical to use without a supplemental primer when applying over previously painted oil surfaces. Some if not most on this forum are not comfortable with that. But does it make those that choose to use these products as directed any less professional. I don't think so because if it were unethical, you'd have to expose the false claims of the manufacturers first before you accuse the painter of being dishonest.

As far as your oil analogy Pat, and with complete speculation, it may apply to Auolona's situation if in fact he did a bait and switch where the homeowner didn't get the material he thought he paid for. But the analogy doesn't apply to the subject of self priming paints in general.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I thought the debate was no longer about Auolona and his mystery paint, but more about self priming interior trim paint and whether it's ethical to use without a supplemental primer when applying over previously painted oil surfaces. Some if not most on this forum are not comfortable with that. But does it make those that choose to use these products as directed any less professional. I don't think so because if it were unethical, you'd have to expose the false claims of the manufacturers first before you accuse the painter of being dishonest.
> 
> As far as your oil analogy Pat, and with complete speculation, it may apply to Auolona's situation if in fact he did a bait and switch where the homeowner didn't get the material he thought he paid for. But the analogy doesn't apply to the subject of self priming paints in general.


CA you have yet to post one WB product that is self priming that says it can be directly applied over oil per manufacturer specs.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

CApainter said:


> As far as your oil analogy Pat, and with complete speculation, it may apply to Auolona's situation if in fact he did a bait and switch where the homeowner didn't get the material he thought he paid for. But the analogy doesn't apply to the subject of self priming paints in general.


The problem is the homeowner never even got the chance to decide or not. He was never informed. 

If you read the back of the cans "BM regal series - it says "self priming on most substrates". Not mocking someone who uses this method at all. I would imagine they would do some sort of adhesion test prior to following through with the rest of the project. I know I would. 

For me the million dollar question is "What is a self priming paint anyways?" does this mean you can take a self priming semi gloss paint and paint over a patch and it will not flash? does it mean you can paint over stains and the will be blocked out? Can you use it on raw wood? and so on...

I have always been under the impression it is just a selling point from the manufacturers aimed at homeowners after the success they see from how berh did. 

The OP did not give the Homeowner a choice, he just assumed and that was a mistake in my mind. For the fact that the homeowner was at the store asking questions was because something happened when it should not have. 

Pat


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> lol - we are just having fun playing detective that's all. I really have no idea what really happened just as everyone else in this thread. Just guessing and If I'm wrong at all then my apologies to the OP. It's nothing personal, its just there's always two sides to a story and we only have one to go by.
> 
> Pat


Alright. Several of us got bent out of shape in this thread. I am one of them. It is my opinion that one can properly prep an oil base substrate for latex top coat without priming. I think you realize this. I also think you were really just saying to take the guess work out of it and prime. Obviously this covers the contractor and is a fail-safe measure.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Just for the record, In a residential I wouldn't want to put a self priming WB finish on previously painted oil base without a bond coat, not because I am so honest and professional, but because I have trust issues and I'm too paranoid.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Just for the record, In a residential I wouldn't want to put a self priming WB finish on previously painted oil base without a bond coat, not because I am so honest and professional, but because I have trust issues and I'm too paranoid.


OH so now you back away :whistling2: You preach these self priming paints, attempt to build them up then say you dont trust them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> CA you have yet to post one WB product that is self priming that says it can be directly applied over oil per manufacturer specs.


It doesn't say it can't either. And what do you think these products are intended for? Yes previously painted oil base surfaces. Otherwise, you'd use Proclassic if you were painting over previously painted WB trim.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> OH so now you back away :whistling2: You preach these self priming paints, attempt to build them up then say you dont trust them.


Don't hate me for what the industry's providing you.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> It doesn't say it can't either. And what do you think these products are intended for? Yes previously painted oil base surfaces. Otherwise, you'd use Proclassic if you were painting over previously painted WB trim.


I think theres a reason they sell bonding primers.


I havent had one rep from a store or manufacturer ever tell me that self priming paints are inteded for going over oil. Difficult surfaces.

And oil base surfaces vary. If it was an oil primer that is one thing. But an oil base paint like satin impervo. NO.

Self priming, on drywall. Some bare wood. 

Self priming over existing latex paint. 

Go find a manufacturers rep, and have him give you something in writing that says BM Regal will self prime over oil based impervo and be completely fine.


And CA i dont hate you for what the industry provides me. As you just said, you dont trust it so you use a bonding primer(yeah thats confidence). IF it was solid, you wouldnt need to say that. Also you havent provided an example of a product that says it can go over oil (WB paint)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good discussion everyone! and thanks.

Now it's time for episode three of Generation kill. Thanks to whom ever recommended that to me.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> Fun playing detective here
> 
> Basically I'm just trying to read though the lines here. This is how I'm coming up with my conclusion that something must of happened to the baseboards to give the owner a concern - I know he said there was nothing wrong with them but not sure I believe him by what took place.
> 
> ...


I am tired of explaining the situation over and over again. If you think i am lying about it, then you have a problem my friend. I write in this forum to relax not to write essays or troll other users. I find it very funny that people would write 1000 words comment giving absurd assumptions just to play devils advocate. 

Seriously i don't even know how this thread got so many comments. Anyway enjoy your self, im out of here.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I thought the debate was no longer about Auolona and his mystery paint, but more about self priming interior trim paint and whether it's ethical to use without a supplemental primer when applying over previously painted oil surfaces. Some if not most on this forum are not comfortable with that. But does it make those that choose to use these products as directed any less professional. I don't think so because if it were unethical, you'd have to expose the false claims of the manufacturers first before you accuse the painter of being dishonest.
> 
> As far as your oil analogy Pat, and with complete speculation, it may apply to Auolona's situation if in fact he did a bait and switch where the homeowner didn't get the material he thought he paid for. But the analogy doesn't apply to the subject of self priming paints in general.


Today i will reveal the mystery of my paint. The company that orders that formula is called The Byng Group. http://www.thebynggroup.com/

Look at the bottom of their page to see who they deal with.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Back again, still nothing to add, just want to be part of this huge thread.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Auolona said:


> Today i will reveal the mystery of my paint. The company that orders that formula is called The Byng Group. http://www.thebynggroup.com/
> 
> Look at the bottom of their page to see who they deal with.


You didn't reveal any mystery paint. All you did is point out a website for a big maintenance corporation. Cool site though.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Yea that's pretty much what I always do, if the customer can not afford a proper job, I try to order special formula's for all their paints where only a property maintenance can get their hands on.

Come on Auolona, you can do better then come up with this lame story.

Pat


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Just sue them so we can all put an end to this thread. :hammer:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Auolona said:


> Today i will reveal the mystery of my paint. The company that orders that formula is called The Byng Group. http://www.thebynggroup.com/
> 
> Look at the bottom of their page to see who they deal with.


what else is in your mystery van?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Yea that's pretty much what I always do, if the customer can not afford a proper job, I try to order special formula's for all their paints where only a property maintenance can get their hands on.
> 
> Come on Auolona, you can do better then come up with this lame story.
> 
> Pat


Morning Pat,

As I read it earlier in this thread, apparently Auolona had a few gallons of the special formula left over from another job. He used this paint on the customer in question. 

The "Company X" that Auolona referred to earlier in this thread has been revealed to be the Byng Group, a renovation contractor in Ontario Canada. It appears after further investigation, that the Byng group is part of a co op that can purchase paint products from manufacturers like ICI Dulux at discount prices. My research never uncovered an actual patented paint formula for the Byng Group, other then the possible use of a recycled paint material that helps keep costs down on numerous low income housing projects that the City is involved with renovating.

This thread definitely became a mountain from a mole hill with my help no doubt. Anyway, I'm done. 

Have a happy father's day weekend to all of you!


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I just wanted to have the last word

Thank You for posting on Paint Talk
This thread is now closed.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

epretot said:


> This thread is now closed.


It is ???

I don't remember seeing a mod closing it.

carry on.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Could a non-mod at least give this a shot? :yes:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

The only thing I would like to see is a Picture and a PDF of said "Special Formula".


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

robladd said:


> The only thing I would like to see is a Picture and a PDF of said "Special Formula".


I agree with that. And i really doubt he has it. I seriously doubt the OP even knows what it really is. And if was made for a maintenance company it probably isnt a high end product. Just sayin


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

I mean REALLY, how can you legally apply any coating without a PDF and a MSDS?

All products have a PDF and MSDS sheet PERIOD!!!


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

robladd said:


> I mean REALLY, how can you legally apply any coating without a PDF and a MSDS?
> 
> All products have a PDF and MSDS sheet PERIOD!!!


This guy probably got the stuff from a buddy who took it form the company he was working for..

So pretty easily. "dude check this out, special formula brah"

"sweet brah, specail formula"

"yeah dude, goes on anything"

"sweet man"

"special formula man"


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

S&C would you want it in your home? Know wonder the home owner wanted it removed.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

robladd said:


> S&C would you want it in your home? Know wonder the home owner wanted it removed.


Nope. Dont know what it is. 

Im not using something professionaly that isnt tested and labeled, bought through a reputable supplier.

IMO, you phuck up if you take the risk of using a product that you cant even say what it is.

Imagine going into court "well what did you use" "special formula" "special formula? what is that" "heres the site of the company it was made for" 

Seriously? Blame the BM store for telling the HO something, and saying you did it wrong. I have NEVER had a client go into a store and question anything i did. Thats a red flag. "it wasnt within the customers budget" Ok well you need to figure out what kind of jobs you want to do then. Its your name on it regaurdless of the budget. 

School of hard knocks isnt nice. Learn from it. Think the OP should take one away from this.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

pacificpainters.com said:


> Back again, still nothing to add, just want to be part of this huge thread.


I can't believe it's still going on. Been avoiding this train wreck.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I think this horse has been beaten to death.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

I think the horse was beaten to death and we've been beating a dead horse


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Guys...I closed this thread hours ago!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

StripandCaulk said:


> I think the horse was beaten to death and we've been beating a dead horse


My point exactly.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

What happen here??


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Besides the mistery van pic from Gabe I don't see any other useful post


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Some horses died.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Hello from Salma's #1 fan


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

even if you win in court it's another thing to collect.I'd pass for such a small amount.not worth your time in court.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Now THIS is entertainment !!!


I love it. 

Dan, I'm ain't even gonna single tap this zombie


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Can someone please photoshop tjs avatar and NEPS' track star from funny pics together? Cause that would be awesome.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

I wouldnt be surprised if salma has back problems


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Close?


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Just one more thing....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Well if this threads going to malinger around for awhile.......ah f it, I'm having too good of a time with my family today. Later!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Sue em and admit this whole thread as evidence. Or don't.


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## snkd (Dec 29, 2011)

It actually sounds like everything worked just the way it should have. You screwed the HO by using some off the wall (recycled mistint). And he didn't pay up the difference of what you tried to save. Mean while he is left with a mess. I think you got off lucky with this one from the sounds of it your lucky he doesn't take you to court for using products and procedures that arent recomended, as stated before YOU ARE THE PRO in this picture. If the homeowner doesnt want it done correctly or to your recomendation you need to walk away. You know without certain paper work he could claim that his family is now sick or something from the Special Formula of yours. Then what, could you prove differently. You dont even know what the product really is.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Auolona said:


> He loved everything about what i did at his house. I have no freaking clue what happened to him. When my job was done He wasnt picking up the phone i had to go there 3-4 times to get a hold of him.
> As i said a company i was working before use this formula to paint city houses. I have used this paint before and never had problems. Since the paint was made for another company not mine i cant get them involved.
> Listen this was not a big project. I dont even care about the money. I just wanted to share it with others and thats it. This became a huge thread, because some people started trolling and pretend to be more catholic than the Pope.


 Why sue then if you dont care about the money?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

... let it goooo..


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Come on guys. We still are a little short of having every single member that ever signed up for PT post in this thread. WE CAN DO IT! :thumbup::jester:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Is it time for my dead horse photo yet?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)




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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Is it time for my dead horse photo yet?


Ya think? :yes::yes::yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Is it time for my dead horse photo yet?


which goes first?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)




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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Seriously, if we don't unplug this soon all our heads are gonna look like this...:shutup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> Seriously, if we don't unplug this soon all our heads are gonna look like this...:shutup:


careful now, some of us ain't all that perfect


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

:whistling2:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

So what was the deAl anyways with the situation? 

How about some pics?


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Sue me biatch!


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

*More please!*

Look, I really don't think we have covered this subject thoroughly enough.

TJ, I want more input from you please, we can never have enough of your fine avat... I mean post. 

MORE PLEASE!


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

At least a few more posts to get to a new page. RH's post on the top of this page makes my tummy queasy.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> At least a few more posts to get to a new page. RH's post on the top of this page makes my tummy queasy.


Okay. But if you get up tomorrow, look in the mirror and your head's shaped like his, don't say I didn't warn you. Course by then you won't be able to remember that I warned you. :whistling2:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Okay. But if you get up tomorrow, look in the mirror and your head's shaped like his, don't say I didn't warn you. Course by then you won't be able to remember that I warned you. :whistling2:


What' that? What are you talking abooooooooouuu.....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This thread is starting to smell of decomposition. BURY IT ALREADY!


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

And just another thing!...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Thread... just die already! 

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

I think we should invite the homeowner into the conversation and go for extra innings.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

I agree


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I still have every intention to get the last word.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Would a hybrid paint have more mechanical bond than a acrylic enamel?


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> Would a hybrid paint have more mechanical bond than a acrylic enamel?


I wouldn't think so. Lets discuss at length.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Then what is the practical advantage of an acrylic alkyd?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Would a hybrid paint have more mechanical bond than a acrylic enamel?





Paradigmzz said:


> Then what is the practical advantage of an acrylic alkyd?


Good questions,
If you're talking about hybrid primer/finish enamels, I think a hybrid would have a better mechanical bond but only after a longer period of time since alkyds require oxidation to cure.

The practical advantage may be in it's bonding properties, leveling ability, and hardness when fully cured. However, the higher VOC's make it impractical when used where air quality sensitivity is an issue. I'm also not certain the UV resistance is as good as 100% acrylic.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Alkyds cure faster

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Okay you have my attention, what do you mean by hybrid primer/finish enamels? Is this the acrylic alkyd I have heard about?

We don't have these down here yet, we only have the acrylic enamels.

What are these "hybrid primer/finish enamels" like?

TJ when you said alkyds cure faster, do you mean full cure as opposed to touch dry?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

pacificpainters.com said:


> Okay you have my attention, what do you mean by hybrid primer/finish enamels? Is this the acrylic alkyd I have heard about?
> 
> We don't have these down here yet, we only have the acrylic enamels.
> 
> ...



Refering to the acrylic alkyd enamel paint such as Advance. which are suspended oils in a waterborne solution, or something scientific as such.

Don't know about primer finish enamels,unless we are talking market gimmicks, but products such as Olympic One and Behr Ultra are waterborne solely.

Alkyds overall cure quickly and dry slowly. I've never heard cured meaning anything other than length of time it takes to make a complete mechanical bond.




My main question is would we be having this thread had the painter used a hybrid acrylic alkyd. Would this be a more sound solution without a prime coat.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey PP- here's some good examples:
 Smart Prime 
Zar Ultra Max
BM Advance


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Refering to the acrylic alkyd enamel paint
> Alkyds overall cure quickly and dry slowly. I've never heard cured meaning anything other than length of time it takes to make a complete mechanical bond.
> 
> My main question is would we be having this thread had the painter used a hybrid acrylic alkyd. Would this be a more sound solution without a prime coat.


According to this attached link,http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...ners/master-list-of-technical-data-sheets-tds Advance is low VOC @ 50g/l . So the comparison to a self priming acrylic enamel's VOC is similar.

It does however require 4-6 hours to touch, 16 hrs to recoat, and 30 days to fully cure. And it also "requires" a primer over existing enamel.

It would be considered improper application had Auolona used Advance without a primer rather then using say Regal Premium that doesn't state in the Tech sheet that primer is "required". The homeowner would have been accurate to criticize Auolona's preparation prior to application.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

Just curious how this thread is still going strong? Anyone?


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

scottjr said:


> Just curious how this thread is still going strong? Anyone?


Yes it has been beat to death.:hammer::hammer:

Just imagine the thread after he sues the customer over the $700? Can't wait to hear the outcome.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)




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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

snkd said:


> It actually sounds like everything worked just the way it should have. You screwed the HO by using some off the wall (recycled mistint). And he didn't pay up the difference of what you tried to save. Mean while he is left with a mess. I think you got off lucky with this one from the sounds of it your lucky he doesn't take you to court for using products and procedures that arent recomended, as stated before YOU ARE THE PRO in this picture. If the homeowner doesnt want it done correctly or to your recomendation you need to walk away. You know without certain paper work he could claim that his family is now sick or something from the Special Formula of yours. Then what, could you prove differently. You dont even know what the product really is.


If his family gets sick?? Are you really serious?? I am not a paint manufacturer. This thread is getting really weird. People just comment for the sake of it.


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## Auolona (Jun 1, 2012)

mudbone said:


> Why sue then if you dont care about the money?


My thread was titled " Should i sue for $700" that doesn't mean i am suing


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Let it go bro.


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## finaltouch0 (Jul 14, 2011)

Dang! I thought this thread was dead a long time ago.....


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Back to the topic...

Yeah, you should sue.

Thread done. 

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Sue them and while you are at it sue everyone over $700.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Auolona said:


> My thread was titled " Should i sue for $700" that doesn't mean i am suing


Why did you resurrect this thread? Dude, just file the lawsuit and get it over with... :blink:


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

Ya let it go. This thread was over with a couple weeks ago.


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## Montana Painters (Oct 7, 2010)

Chalk up the loss and move on.

Develop better contract procedures.

99.99% of my own jobs are by a simple handshake, so I don't practice what I preach.

Money ain't the motive to do a job.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Montana Painters said:


> Chalk up the loss and move on.
> 
> Develop better contract procedures.
> 
> ...


You will get burned one day and wake up.
Its not just the price and getting paid that can bite you in the a*ss.

*The detials of the job need to be spelled out!* 
Nothing worse than having I customer state, "i thought that was included in the cost of the job"?


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

PhillysFinest said:


> You will get burned one day and wake up.
> Its not just the price and getting paid that can bite you in the a*ss.
> 
> The detials of the job need to be spelled out!
> Nothing worse than having I customer state, "i thought that was included in the cost of the job"?


Agreed. You have to be as detailed as possible. You have to list everything that is included and excluded so there is no confusion. 
If you dont do that then you open yourself up to get burned in the long run.
Also you need to include how the payment(s) will be made and when. In a nutshell, don't leave anything out.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

scottjr said:


> Agreed. You have to be as detailed as possible. You have to list everything that is included and excluded so there is no confusion.
> If you dont do that then you open yourself up to get burned in the long run.
> Also you need to include how the payment(s) will be made and when. In a nutshell, don't leave anything out.


_*Here is an email estimate I gave a guy a month ago.*_
***************************************************

*Labor prices only*

*Dining Room*: ceiling & walls - prime walls, then apply (2) finish coats. $390.00
*Foyer Stairway & Hall*: remove wallpaper and paste, prime walls, ceiling & wall - apply (2) finish coats. $1,139.00
*Kitchen:* remove wallpaper and paste, prime walls, ceiling & wall - apply (2) finish coats. $825.00
*Prep Work:* spackle & sand, nail pops, cracks and minor imperfections.
****************************************************
His first question to me was, "are you supplying the prime"? 
2nd question was, "I thought you were painting the window sill (2 x 5) in my dining room", (this was stated after the job started).

Even if its in writing, I find that you have to 'break out' the *contract* at times like these, or you will be doing free work and suppling free primer...


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Four hundred a man day for philly's finest?
just curiouss, why don't you just supply the materials and go, say, 550.00 or 600.00 a man day?
just curious is all.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Oden, you are saying I charge too much? You have me confused?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

PhillysFinest said:


> Oden, you are saying I charge too much? You have me confused?


No way am I saying that you charge too much.
What I'm saying is if you supplied the paint for the job instead of the customer buying it wouldn't you, with a discount on paint, make more money while the customers bottom line would be the same? Are you missing out on makingd a bit of money on materials is what I'm wondering?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Over 7,000 views to this epic thread. 

I am thinking I should close it now so it does not beat out my favorites lol. 

Seriously why is this dead horse still being beat? Is there no fresh horses out there to violate?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I am sorry I can't take it somebody start a new thread that I can spew my fresh diatribe all over.


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