# Hatbanding as the result of different mfg. rollers?



## WooPaint! (Mar 29, 2014)

Hi, all,

Long time lurker, first time poster. Small one-man shop out of Chicago here who does strictly residential interiors (typically on a referral basis). I encountered a situation today that I was hoping to see if anyone else has encountered (and if so, possibly remedied).

I did a 20' single accent wall for a client today. Paint was BM Regal Select in matte, color was Affinity AF 175 "Barrista" (a dark coffee brown). I've done dark colors in the past, but never this specific brown. This specific color is a 4x base.

Knowing that dark/deep colors can be more ****e to typical issues, I taped baseboard, door frame, etc. (no windows on this wall, but a window is on the adjacent wall).

I used a Wooster 4.5" whizz roller (3/8" nap) to roll over all cut-ins as they were done, as close as possible due to everything adjacent being taped off. I was planning on rolling the wall with a Wooster 18" 3/8" SuperFab but didn't have one on my truck, so I picked up an 18" 3/8" microfiber from the local HD (it was either that or a generic, non microfiber brand, so I went for the microfiber).

Rolling an 18" microfiber on a BigBen frame, I came as close to the door frame, opposite walls, etc. as possible, given the profile of the frame.

When all was said and done, there is hatbanding around the door frame, despite close cutting, close rolling, etc. The adjacent wall's window accentuates this. Upon very close inspection, the hatbanding is clearly the result of the texture difference between the whizz roller and the microfiber, despite them being of the same nap length (3/8") -- as the hatbanding outline coincides exactly with the limits of how close I was able to roll with the 18" frame.

I've never seen such noticeable banding with two rollers of the same nap length, albeit from different mfgs. I'm assuming this was accentuated in this case due to the dark color, the slight sheen of the matte paint, and the natural light from the wall.

Anyone encountered this before? My assumption was that the only remedies were to either find a whizz and 18" roller nap from the same vendor with the same nap pattern, or switch to a 14" nap/frame and roll closer than I could with the 18".

Any insight is appreciated.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Yep, texture difference from different nap blends. Use micro with micro, poly with poly, nylon with nylon, lamb with lamb, etc. On textured walls you will never see the difference, on smooth oh boy!!


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## northcountrypainter (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes, I've had that problem. Kind of a drag when it happens, considering how much effort you've obviously put into achieving a quality finish. I think MikeC is correct, you need same texture because, as you noted, the difference is accentuated by light, sheen, etc.
Good luck!


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I believe I would try the 14" ad roll right up to the tape. You could even put an 18" nap on the 14" frame. It's just a little floppy for dip rolling.


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## WooPaint! (Mar 29, 2014)

northcountrypainter said:


> Yes, I've had that problem. Kind of a drag when it happens, considering how much effort you've obviously put into achieving a quality finish. I think MikeC is correct, you need same texture because, as you noted, the difference is accentuated by light, sheen, etc.
> Good luck!


When it happened, did you let the HO point it out or did you correct it (I assume simply by re-rolling?) just in the name of being a good painter?

I was planning on re-rolling (tighter, different roller/frame) when I was back on site on Monday -- but one thing I sometimes struggle with is knowing exactly what anyone other than a professional painter will pick up on. I sometimes find myself laying on the floor looking at the underside of chair rail lips, trim, etc. when I'm done painting -- something that no sane person would/should be looking at!

Thanks to all for the responses!

--jp


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Had the same problem with SW SuperPaint satin on a project last winter.
Div. sales rep and store manager both said that with many of the new products, specific brushes and rollers need to be used for each product.
Taped it off, rolled it in tight with the 9" using the paint they comped me.
The fun never ends!


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## Brush&RollerGuy (Oct 12, 2012)

This was one of the issues that was behind the introduction of Wooster's Jumbo-Koter roller system nearly 12 years ago. To avoid 'hatbanding' or 'picture framing' it is suggested that both the trim roller and standard roller be not only the same nap size but of the same material and construction. Keep in mind that the 1/2" nap woven cover will produce a distinctly different finish than a 1/2" nap knit cover. Wooster's Jumbo-Koter covers are made with the exact same fabrics that are used in the construction of their standard covers (4", 7", 9", 9 1/2", 14", 18").

http://http://www.woosterbrush.com/upload/catalog_home/pdf/JumboKoter.pdf


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## WooPaint! (Mar 29, 2014)

Brush&RollerGuy said:


> This was one of the issues that was behind the introduction of Wooster's Jumbo-Koter roller system nearly 12 years ago. To avoid 'hatbanding' or 'picture framing' it is suggested that both the trim roller and standard roller be not only the same nap size but of the same material and construction. Keep in mind that the 1/2" nap woven cover will produce a distinctly different finish than a 1/2" nap knit cover. Wooster's Jumbo-Koter covers are made with the exact same fabrics that are used in the construction of their standard covers (4", 7", 9", 9 1/2", 14", 18").
> 
> http://http://www.woosterbrush.com/upload/catalog_home/pdf/JumboKoter.pdf


Makes complete sense, just've never seen it so ****ounced before in other scenarios. I use largely BM RS matte, but I've found the sheen to be slightly inconsistent (or perhaps unpredictable is a better word) across different colors even within the same sheen.

I put a dark red (AF 300) onto a wall just the other day, same method (except I used a 4.5" and 9" vs. an 18"), and the red looked almost dead flat and showed no apparent difference in texture between the rolls at the cut line. This particular brown, on the other hand, is way shinier than expected.

Suppose I'll just re-roll the wall, tighter with a smaller frame, to even things out. The HO may not notice it one way or the other, but I do, and I want to deliver what's being paid for.

Thanks again!

--jp


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't use 2 rollers and I would use a 9" if it's only one 20' wall because at least then I know I can roll nice and tight with the same exact cover and nap size, but I do know from using Regal Matte classic back in the day and now Regal Select Matte that it's just not that good of a paint to avoid flashing issues overall. For example, I always notice the differential between the cut in and roll and I try to cut in very small around door frames and roll tight. No matter what I do, it just never comes out looking perfect but as you said, most customers do not notice such things so I try to move on. I do try to upgrade all customers to the eggshell but some of them insist on a no shine finish. Really, the better option is Aura Matte. Don't forget all this is complicated even further by the dark color.


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## WooPaint! (Mar 29, 2014)

Carl said:


> I don't use 2 rollers and I would use a 9" if it's only one 20' wall because at least then I know I can roll nice and tight with the same exact cover and nap size, but I do know from using Regal Matte classic back in the day and now Regal Select Matte that it's just not that good of a paint to avoid flashing issues overall. For example, I always notice the differential between the cut in and roll and I try to cut in very small around door frames and roll tight. No matter what I do, it just never comes out looking perfect but as you said, most customers do not notice such things so I try to move on. I do try to upgrade all customers to the eggshell but some of them insist on a no shine finish. Really, the better option is Aura Matte. Don't forget all this is complicated even further by the dark color.


I opted for the 18" because I figured with a 20' high wall (16' wide) in a dark color with sheen and natural light, the rolling itself would be "more" critical for an even finish. I'd assumed that the fewest number of light, even layoffs would be more of a factor. I guess in this case, I assumed wrong (or at least assumed the cut-ins wouldn't flash so drastically).

I'm going to re-roll Monday with a 14" SuperFab (closer nap to the cut-in roller than the microfiber) on a 14" frame and roll as tight as I can. Hopefully this will minimize the banding.

Thanks for the feedback.

--jp


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh sorry, I thought when you said 20', that you meant width. Yea, I guess that changes everything, though I have tried using the 18" a few times, I just hate the damn things.


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## northcountrypainter (Dec 7, 2012)

WooPaint! said:


> When it happened, did you let the HO point it out or did you correct it (I assume simply by re-rolling?) just in the name of being a good painter?
> 
> I was planning on re-rolling (tighter, different roller/frame) when I was back on site on Monday -- but one thing I sometimes struggle with is knowing exactly what anyone other than a professional painter will pick up on. I sometimes find myself laying on the floor looking at the underside of chair rail lips, trim, etc. when I'm done painting -- something that no sane person would/should be looking at!
> 
> ...


I would have similar ocd issues, and would take care of the problem whether or not someone else pointed it out.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*overlapped roller stipple*

I just painted 2 coats on some ceilings for a contractor. He had me cut in with a 4" mini roller (I believe it was a microfiber) and then roll 2 coats with a 1/4" regular roller sleeve. This is what he has been having his previous painter do and what he wanted me to do, so I did it. I noticed that where the 9" roller overlapped with the 4" mini there was pronounced stippling. Obviously. I have a feeling that even if I were to use the same roller and nap for both 4" and 9" there will still be 4 coats of paint about 2 to 4 inches away from the wall. He doesn't want brush marks where the ceiling is cut in, so I am trying to think of a way to produce minimum stipple for cutting in, thereby reducing the overall stipple effect. I am thinking of using a 4" foam roller to cut in. Any thoughts?

futtyos


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Edit: solution already suggest ed


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

WooPaint! said:


> When it happened, did you let the HO point it out or did you correct it (I assume simply by re-rolling?) just in the name of being a good painter?
> 
> I was planning on re-rolling (tighter, different roller/frame) when I was back on site on Monday -- but one thing I sometimes struggle with is knowing exactly what anyone other than a professional painter will pick up on. I sometimes find myself laying on the floor looking at the underside of chair rail lips, trim, etc. when I'm done painting -- something that no sane person would/should be looking at!
> 
> ...


Given the market in which you work( residential & referral), I think that you're ahead of the game to be the harsher judge of what's acceptable. In the long run, I think that's better than having the HO point things out.

There seems to be a growing trend to get away with doing as little as possible, witness one infamous poster who specs "second coat if needed", but there is a market for clients who respect, and will pay a premium to, contractors with high standards. It's not any easy market to break into, be it's there.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Ditch the mini roller if you can't make it work to your liking. Run the 9" right up to the wall and brush out the crack while its still wet. You gotta be pretty quick about it but done that way you can get an even stipple and almost no brush marks. 

I have to ask did you let the cut in dry before rolling? Or keep a wet edge? One thing that can cause what your talking about is rolling over a half dry cut in. Doing that can make the paint at the overlap nap up badly.





futtyos said:


> I just painted 2 coats on some ceilings for a contractor. He had me cut in with a 4" mini roller (I believe it was a microfiber) and then roll 2 coats with a 1/4" regular roller sleeve. This is what he has been having his previous painter do and what he wanted me to do, so I did it. I noticed that where the 9" roller overlapped with the 4" mini there was pronounced stippling. Obviously. I have a feeling that even if I were to use the same roller and nap for both 4" and 9" there will still be 4 coats of paint about 2 to 4 inches away from the wall. He doesn't want brush marks where the ceiling is cut in, so I am trying to think of a way to produce minimum stipple for cutting in, thereby reducing the overall stipple effect. I am thinking of using a 4" foam roller to cut in. Any thoughts?
> 
> futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> Ditch the mini roller if you can't make it work to your liking. Run the 9" right up to the wall and brush out the crack while its still wet. You gotta be pretty quick about it but done that way you can get an even stipple and almost no brush marks.
> 
> I have to ask did you let the cut in dry before rolling? Or keep a wet edge? One thing that can cause what your talking about is rolling over a half dry cut in. Doing that can make the paint at the overlap nap up badly.


Good idea, JMays. I do let the rolled cut-in dry thoroughly before rolling the whole ceiling. I like the idea of rolling right up to the edge and then smoothing the paint in the corner. The only problem I see is drying time. The ceilings have all been skim coated over texture, then 2 coats of Kilz 2 (as per contractor - it's what he is used to doing). When I skim coat over texture I put 2 coats of Gardz over everything. That really seals the surface and increases my drying time, which I don't have (as much) on the ceilings in question. I am worried about stopping to brush out the paint in the corners because the paint on the ceiling will be setting up soon enough. What I need is a second person manning the brush. The walls have to be cut in by brush so the question about no brush marks is moot there, but I think I will try to have someone help me out next time and do what you say about rolling right up to the edge. 

What I really am interested in is a ceiling paint that rolls and brushes well. I have used the BM 508 (over ceilings that were Gardzed and with Extender being put into the paint) and used Behr Premium Plus (not the ultra, just the regular) on the current hatbanded job. Both covered well with 2 coats and both look fine. I just hate the way both of them roll and brush and I want to get rid of the hatbanding in the future. I know this should be in another thread, but any recommendations for ceiling paint that rolls, brushes and dries slowly, as per the discussion above, would be appreciated.

futtyos


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Adding a small amount of XIM may help with the hat banding. The longer open time helps thick paint such as Regal Select level better. 

Does the wall get a lot of sun exposure? I've found this to cause some unevenness in the first coat of a repaint.


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