# Surfactant Leeching on Concrete



## Tapwater (Aug 24, 2015)

Just wanted to ask around and see if anyone's had any problems with surfactant leeching using Dulux products on concrete/masonry substrates. 

Affected substrates were power washed, scraped where flaking and then primed using a latex masonry primer in it's entirety, corner to corner, top to bottom. 2 coats of the finish product over top. Everything looks great until it rains and heavy streaking becomes evident- far more noticeable on the darker panels. When power washed, the result is a moderate to heavy foaming during the wash, and streaking continues after. 

We've remedied the problem on our part, but I'm interested to know if anyone else out there's had similar problems


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I believe that those coatings are tinted with a glycol based colorant. These colorants contain lots of soaps, or surfactants that will leach when these ingredients can't escape normally due to high humidity, cooler temps, or high dew points and RH that transition at the end of the day or condensation forming on a film retarding the normal evaporation. Two coats applied quickly can enhance the process, or areas that are covered where air circulation is minimal. Normally SL can be removed when the film is allowed to cure, about three weeks and then removed with clean water. Adding another coat will only further add to the problem. This can also occur in ready mixed colors including white. The integrity of the paint film is not compromised but egos and aesthetics may be bruised. Insure your customer that this problem is easily fixed and is not the fault of the paint or your application. It is a time honored tradition to face this issue in the Northeast in the spring and especially fall when days are shorter and dew is formed more quickly on warm surfaces and cooler temps. Waterborne colorants can also leach just not as often and are generally more stable. Oil based coatings will also leach, and epoxy can blush under similar conditions. Let us know how you were able to solve the problem. It's just soap. It's ok.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

NACE said:


> I believe that those coatings are tinted with a glycol based colorant. These colorants contain lots of soaps, or surfactants that will leach when these ingredients can't escape normally due to high humidity, cooler temps, or high dew points and RH that transition at the end of the day or condensation forming on a film retarding the normal evaporation. Two coats applied quickly can enhance the process, or areas that are covered where air circulation is minimal. Normally SL can be removed when the film is allowed to cure, about three weeks and then removed with clean water. Adding another coat will only further add to the problem. This can also occur in ready mixed colors including white. The integrity of the paint film is not compromised but egos and aesthetics may be bruised. Insure your customer that this problem is easily fixed and is not the fault of the paint or your application. It is a time honored tradition to face this issue in the Northeast in the spring and especially fall when days are shorter and dew is formed more quickly on warm surfaces and cooler temps. Waterborne colorants can also leach just not as often and are generally more stable. Oil based coatings will also leach, and epoxy can blush under similar conditions. Let us know how you were able to solve the problem. It's just soap. It's ok.



What a great reply by NACE.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> What a great reply by NACE.


I agree. NACE would u mind sharing ur work history or experience? Im working on expanding my coating knowledge on the sciency end of things and would appreciate any tips in that regard.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

NACE said:


> I believe that those coatings are tinted with a glycol based colorant. These colorants contain lots of soaps, or surfactants that will leach when these ingredients can't escape normally due to high humidity, cooler temps, or high dew points and RH that transition at the end of the day or condensation forming on a film retarding the normal evaporation. Two coats applied quickly can enhance the process, or areas that are covered where air circulation is minimal. Normally SL can be removed when the film is allowed to cure, about three weeks and then removed with clean water. Adding another coat will only further add to the problem. This can also occur in ready mixed colors including white. The integrity of the paint film is not compromised but egos and aesthetics may be bruised. Insure your customer that this problem is easily fixed and is not the fault of the paint or your application. It is a time honored tradition to face this issue in the Northeast in the spring and especially fall when days are shorter and dew is formed more quickly on warm surfaces and cooler temps. Waterborne colorants can also leach just not as often and are generally more stable. Oil based coatings will also leach, and epoxy can blush under similar conditions. Let us know how you were able to solve the problem. It's just soap. It's ok.





bryceraisanen said:


> I agree. NACE would u mind sharing ur work history or experience? Im working on expanding my coating knowledge on the sciency end of things and would appreciate any tips in that regard.


I'll second that, and quote and mention @NACE while I'm at it.

Those of you PT members with professional certifications or science/engineering credentials, will you share how you got them and recommend what training programs/academic classes you've found most useful to get ahead in the industry.

(And if nothing comes of it here bryce, maybe just start a new thread.)


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

From my understanding, some of the new "moisture resistant" paints are supposed to have less leaching on a new coat then traditional paints. I believe Durations is early moisture resistant and i am sure that P&L Redseal is. I don't have any personal or customer experience/comments to back that claim up though. It is a fairly common issue in some areas of the country.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Tapwater said:


> Just wanted to ask around and see if anyone's had any problems with surfactant leeching using Dulux products on concrete/masonry substrates.
> 
> Affected substrates were power washed, scraped where flaking and then primed using a latex masonry primer in it's entirety, corner to corner, top to bottom. 2 coats of the finish product over top. Everything looks great until it rains and heavy streaking becomes evident- far more noticeable on the darker panels. When power washed, the result is a moderate to heavy foaming during the wash, and streaking continues after.
> 
> We've remedied the problem on our part, but I'm interested to know if anyone else out there's had similar problems


I'm going to try and put what @NACE said into simpler terms. 

High humidity during application/while paint was drying. Air moisture jumped during application, started raining while drying. 

I've had this happen to me on a wood substrate using Cloverdale. I remedied this by washing affected areas and touched up. No issues.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

bryceraisanen said:


> I agree. NACE would u mind sharing ur work history or experience? Im working on expanding my coating knowledge on the sciency end of things and would appreciate any tips in that regard.


 I started painting with a local high-end residential painter in New Jersey when I was eight years old. My dad worked for the FAA in Washington DC and only came home one weekend a month. My brother had a summer job with this local painter and he asked if I wanted to come work in the shop on Saturdays. This was the summer of 1968. My responsibilities were cleaning the shop folding drop cloths combing brushes cleaning out the vapor box, and even mixed lead paint. Eventually I was allowed to scrape shutters. He had his own tint machine and bases in his shop in addition to pure oil colors in squeeze bottles. I used to watch him tint paint at the job site and also in the shop. He was also a very high-end and skilled master carpenter. He used to make all of his own windows, mutton bars, stairs, trim. In the winter time we used to back prime clapboards with aluminum paint. He would purchase cedar clapboard's from a small mill in northern Maine and always insisted that the wood come from the north side of the Saco River. Everything he did was to ensure the highest quality and the longest lasting job he could possibly do. I worked and painted for him for 15 years. I was able to pay 100% of my college education as a result of painting houses. Eventually when I graduated from college I went to go work for a major paint company where I work for 25 years. 20 of those years was dealing primarily in very affluent high and demographics with very challenging and demanding customers. It was through the school of hard knocks and many many many complaints that I learned why things fail and how to articulate the solution. Mostly based on experience in addition to some in the industry with equal amounts of experience. Residential architectural coatings were becoming a bit of a bore and I wanted to learn SSPC and Nace for which I could sell and study high performance coatings. I started a career in the commercial and industrial category in which I took learning to a new level. I completed courses through SSPC and received my NACE certification in 2004 and 2007 respectively. I thoroughly to this day enjoy applying paints and experimenting with different brands. If I could make money teaching a class or classes it would be my dream. Paint talk is also a form by which lots of important information is available. Unfortunately many of the major paint companies and retailers have entry level positions with people that have no practical work experience and are unable to articulate and assist contractors with their every day problems. Because the trade is so competitive contractors get caught up in the what's the best price game as opposed to providing the very best quality product and service. I guess as a rep I have had the opportunity to talk with and watch many trades from apartment painters to painting the George Washington Bridge. If you love what you do and can maintain a positive attitude about your knowledge you can learn a lot from all applicators. I have seen some threads here from other highly experienced painters and have tremendous respect for their experience and their craft. Suffice it to say I incorporate their experience into my experience every day.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Great story NACE, I wish I had that much experience to bring to the table. Seeing people like you is why I'm driven to push my learning further every day. I won't be beaten just because I'm young. I still have a lot of mistakes to make and learn from, but the more knowledgeable here are why I'm a member at this site. I want to use you to make me a better and more knowledgeable salesman


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

NACE said:


> I started painting with a local high-end residential painter in New Jersey when I was eight years old. My dad worked for the FAA in Washington DC and only came home one weekend a month. My brother had a summer job with this local painter and he asked if I wanted to come work in the shop on Saturdays. This was the summer of 1968. My responsibilities were cleaning the shop folding drop cloths combing brushes cleaning out the vapor box, and even mixed lead paint. Eventually I was allowed to scrape shutters. He had his own tint machine and bases in his shop in addition to pure oil colors in squeeze bottles. I used to watch him tint paint at the job site and also in the shop. He was also a very high-end and skilled master carpenter. He used to make all of his own windows, mutton bars, stairs, trim. In the winter time we used to back prime clapboards with aluminum paint. He would purchase cedar clapboard's from a small mill in northern Maine and always insisted that the wood come from the north side of the Saco River. Everything he did was to ensure the highest quality and the longest lasting job he could possibly do. I worked and painted for him for 15 years. I was able to pay 100% of my college education as a result of painting houses. Eventually when I graduated from college I went to go work for a major paint company where I work for 25 years. 20 of those years was dealing primarily in very affluent high and demographics with very challenging and demanding customers. It was through the school of hard knocks and many many many complaints that I learned why things fail and how to articulate the solution. Mostly based on experience in addition to some in the industry with equal amounts of experience. Residential architectural coatings were becoming a bit of a bore and I wanted to learn SSPC and Nace for which I could sell and study high performance coatings. I started a career in the commercial and industrial category in which I took learning to a new level. I completed courses through SSPC and received my NACE certification in 2004 and 2007 respectively. I thoroughly to this day enjoy applying paints and experimenting with different brands. If I could make money teaching a class or classes it would be my dream. Paint talk is also a form by which lots of important information is available. Unfortunately many of the major paint companies and retailers have entry level positions with people that have no practical work experience and are unable to articulate and assist contractors with their every day problems. Because the trade is so competitive contractors get caught up in the what's the best price game as opposed to providing the very best quality product and service. I guess as a rep I have had the opportunity to talk with and watch many trades from apartment painters to painting the George Washington Bridge. If you love what you do and can maintain a positive attitude about your knowledge you can learn a lot from all applicators. I have seen some threads here from other highly experienced painters and have tremendous respect for their experience and their craft. Suffice it to say I incorporate their experience into my experience every day.


So r u currently a paint sales rep? 

What steps did u take to recieve your NACE certifications? How much book time? You pay for it or your boss?


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Currently doing training for several Paint and Hardware stores. It was a requirement to get NACE Certification when I was hired for Commercial & Industrial Sales. Book time is a lot. Classes are 8-10 hours a day for 6 days and usually 4 hours of study at night. Process may have changed since I did it. Company paid. It's hard but worth it.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

NACE, it was very interesting to hear story and your transition to industrial coatings.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tapwater (Aug 24, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies, everyone, especially NACE! 

My apologies for replying so late, but to make a long story short, there was some discussion/fingerpointing/mediation between the company I work for and our supplier and I felt it could be wise to wait. 



NACE said:


> Let us know how you were able to solve the problem. It's just soap. It's ok.


We ended up coating everything again with zinsser coverstain to seal in the surfactant and finishing that with a higher quality of paint. It re mediated the excessive leaching. Where the problem came in was that we were under water restrictions and weren't able to simply wash off the affected areas. As well, once the 'soap' had been baked onto the substrate, it's quite hard to remove.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Tapwater said:


> Thanks for all the replies, everyone, especially NACE!
> 
> My apologies for replying so late, but to make a long story short, there was some discussion/fingerpointing/mediation between the company I work for and our supplier and I felt it could be wise to wait.
> 
> ...


Your boss knows that at stage 3 you can use water for pre painting right?


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## Tapwater (Aug 24, 2015)

Yeah. In hindsight we could have disobeyed the 'no power washing for cosmetic reasons' on the restrictions, however, at the time, we weren't sure exactly what the problem was- from the paint-the previous paint job or from the concrete substrate. No one at our company/reps/GC had seen (or at least claimed) to have seen this problem before.


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