# Windows 10 - subscription based?



## daArch

Saw something that made my blood boil: Winder$ 10 will be subscription based.

So I tried to research this. 

There is a lot of unclear hype coming from Redmond about "unifying" platforms, "evolving pricing plans", "productivity offerings", "one-year free upgrade promotion ", "as a service", and so forth.

The more I read, the more confused I get. And you can be sure I trust M$ not to fleece us sheep :no: :no: :no:


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## ewingpainting.net

Most everything is going subscription based now.


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## Gough

daArch said:


> Saw something that made my blood boil: Winder$ 10 will be subscription based.
> 
> So I tried to research this.
> 
> There is a lot of unclear hype coming from Redmond about "unifying" platforms, "evolving pricing plans", "productivity offerings", "one-year free upgrade promotion ", "as a service", and so forth.
> 
> The more I read, the more confused I get. And you can be sure I trust M$ not to fleece us sheep :no: :no: :no:


Oh, Jeez. We've been trying to limp along until 10 came out, but this is one more thing that gives me pause. Maybe it's time to make the move to a fruit-based platform.

Besides, K. gets a new machine paid for by the feds and Gough Jr. just took a job in Cupertino....


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## daArch

Gough said:


> Oh, Jeez. We've been trying to limp along until 10 came out, but this is one more thing that gives me pause. Maybe it's time to make the move to a fruit-based platform.
> 
> Besides, K. gets a new machine paid for by the feds and Gough Jr. just took a job in Cupertino....


I didn't know there was a fruit named *Linux* !!!! :whistling2:


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## Gough

daArch said:


> I didn't know there was a fruit named *Linux* !!!! :whistling2:


Funny, Gough Jr. runs Linux on his Macs. I wonder how that will play.


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## SemiproJohn

I liked Windows XP. And now I'm really comfortable with Windows 7. I guess that makes me resistant to change and, well, old? I wish they would refrain from offering up glitch-laden "new" operating systems every year or two, but I'm weird that way.


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## daArch

SemiproJohn said:


> I liked Windows XP. And now I'm really comfortable with Windows 7. I guess that makes me resistant to change and, well, old? I wish they would refrain from offering up glitch-laden "new" operating systems every year or two, but I'm weird that way.


 Search for the M$ hype about this new OS and the benefits of what they are doing. They say this will be the last OS they are going to put out with only updates instead of periodic brand new platforms. 

I promise you will wet yourself laughing, if you don't drown yourself in tears of disgust.


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## Gotdibz

I've been keeping up with win10 news. I've been using the preview builds on my desktop and like allot of what I see.
cant wait for the final retail version. 

They still have allot of things to clear up but from my understanding;
free upgrade in the first year for any win7 and win8.1 users.

I assume after that first year they will bring large updates (service packs) that you have to pay. I don't see a problem with that model, Apple has been doing incremental updates and no one blinks an eye. I don't understand why Microsoft cant.

You want the latest you have to pay for it, that's basically what it comes down too.


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## daArch

Gotdibz said:


> I've been keeping up with win10 news. I've been using the preview builds on my desktop and like allot of what I see.
> cant wait for the final retail version.
> 
> They still have allot of things to clear up but from my understanding;
> free upgrade in the first year for any win7 and win8.1 users.
> 
> I assume after that first year they will bring large updates (service packs) that you have to pay. I don't see a problem with that model, Apple has been doing incremental updates and no one blinks an eye. I don't understand why Microsoft cant.
> 
> You want the latest you have to pay for it, that's basically what it comes down too.


And what if we don't WANT updates? What if we are happy with the status quo?

How about developing a stable platform the FIRST time? 

This is the American business model. You grow so damn big and are so driven to profits by the stock holders that you MUST build in three year obsolescence which requires millions of users to shell out for "upgrades" & "improvements" when the old version is "sunsetted" . 

I'd be happy with a reliable stable vehicle that got me where I want at a reasonable speed. Let the gamers buy a Lamborghini every freaking year. Just let me drive my Fairlane until I drop. But do I have a choice of models, performance, mileage, and extras ? Nope.


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## Gotdibz

daArch said:


> And what if we don't WANT updates? What if we are happy with the status quo?
> 
> How about developing a stable platform the FIRST time?
> 
> This is the American business model. You grow so damn big and are so driven to profits by the stock holders that you MUST build in three year obsolescence which requires millions of users to shell out for "upgrades" & "improvements" when the old version is "sunsetted" .
> 
> I'd be happy with a reliable stable vehicle that got me where I want at a reasonable speed. Let the gamers buy a Lamborghini every freaking year. Just let me drive my Fairlane until I drop. But do I have a choice of models, performance, mileage, and extras ? Nope.


 I get what your saying, and agree with just about all your points. I actually want to purchase an older F-150 (92-94), they're built to last ( want to find one with out rust) .


But an OS that never updates?, I don't think I've ever heard of such a thing. Any OS in any platform anywhere will need to be updated, bugs and vulnerabilities will be found. 

The perfect OS does not exist if someone is working on one, It would never be released. 

I fee like Microsoft is fairly good when it comes to supporting their older OS's. Win XP just this last Year stopped receiving official updates I believe.

At the end of the day if you don't want updates, simply don't update.


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## Admin

> Microsoft: Windows 10 will not be sold as a subscription
> http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-windows-10-will-not-be-sold-as-a-subscription/
> 
> At its press event today, Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will be a free upgrade for Windows 7 and Windows 8 users during its first year of availability. There was some confusion, however, when Microsoft's Terry Myerson started talking about Windows 10 "as a service." Did that mean that after that first year of free availability, Windows 10 would cost an annual fee? I asked Myerson for clarification after the presentation, and he confirmed that there will be no additional fees attached to Windows 10, whenever you buy it.





> And yes, Windows 10 will be a free upgrade—at least for consumers: “As we announced earlier this year, for the first time ever, we are offering the full versions of Windows 10 Home, Windows 10 Mobile and Windows 10 Pro as a free and easy upgrade for qualifying Windows 7, Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8.1 devices that upgrade in the first year after launch,” Microsoft’s Tony Prophet, the company’s corporate vice president of Windows and search, wrote in a blog post. “Once you upgrade, you have Windows 10 for free on that device.”
> 
> Microsoft has said previously that Windows 10 beta testers, known as Insiders, will receive a free upgrade to the so-called “RTM” version of the software, the same version that will be shipped to stores and to hardware makers. Windows 7, Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8.1 users will be able to upgrade for free, as long as they do it within the first year that the OS ships, http://www.pcworld.com/article/2922...r-and-business-but-pricing-remains-murky.html


Just an FYI...


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## straight_lines

I can't wait for windows 10, 8 was the flop. MS always gets it right the second time.


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## daArch

Cricket said:


> Just an FYI...


Thank you Cricket, but this line from the second link (written around noon today) sure leaves the waters a little muddied

"Microsoft did not say, however, what Windows 10’s eventual price would be, nor did the company say whether it would be offered on a subscription model (or what that subscription cost would be). "

I been planning on waiting to buy a new computer until after 10 was out, I was hoping it was going to be so last month. 

Perhaps if I can sort this all out, I will buy with one with 8.1 and take advantage of the free upgrade - if I can be certain M$ isn't taking an Adobe or Intuit path to corporate profits through subscriptions or rapid sunsetting.


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## Epoxy Pro

I just signed up for the free windows 10 upgrade.


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## daArch

cdpainting said:


> I just signed up for the free windows 10 upgrade.


how does that work that you "just signed up".

W 10 ain't due for release until 7/29.

My new box with 8.1 arrived last Saturday and I saw that I could "sign up" for 10 and didn't quite understand what the benefit was.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> how does that work that you "just signed up".
> 
> W 10 ain't due for release until 7/29.
> 
> My new box with 8.1 arrived last Saturday and I saw that I could "sign up" for 10 and didn't quite understand what the benefit was.


a little window box shows up in the bottom right of your desktop and says "get windows 10":blink:


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## Epoxy Pro

chrisn said:


> a little window box shows up in the bottom right of your desktop and says "get windows 10":blink:


Exactly. A little pop up window. It started last week. Some PC's are eligible for the free upgrade. 

When Windows 10 is ready it will automatically download to me PC. Then I can install it any time. And yes it's the full version.


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## daArch

Thanks, but I do not embrace Big Brother auto downloading something onto my computer.

I sure I hope I can CHOOSE when I want to download it. Hell, I don't even have the thing fully functional with 8.1 yet. 

And as Cricket quoted, 7 and 8.1 should be eligible for 10 for a year after release. 

I may want to see how buggy it is.


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## doctors11

Does this help any?...

http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-windows-10/


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## daArch

doctors11 said:


> Does this help any?...
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-windows-10/


Yup!



> but there's still plenty left to iron out before the next generation of Windows is humming along on our PC


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## Epoxy Pro

daArch said:


> Thanks, but I do not embrace Big Brother auto downloading something onto my computer.
> 
> I sure I hope I can CHOOSE when I want to download it. Hell, I don't even have the thing fully functional with 8.1 yet.
> 
> And as Cricket quoted, 7 and 8.1 should be eligible for 10 for a year after release.
> 
> I may want to see how buggy it is.


Big brother will enjoy snooping on my pc. it's full of x-rated stripped houses.

Big bro will get into our computers weather we want them to or not.


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## chrisn

cdpainting said:


> Big brother will enjoy snooping on my pc. it's full of x-rated stripped houses.
> 
> Big bro will get into our computers weather we want them to or not.[/QUOTE]
> 
> already there and have been forever


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## daArch

Well, maybe he will, can, and is, but my philosophy is that if you already have unwanted house guests, that's all the more reason to keep additional ones out.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> Well, maybe he will, can, and is, but my philosophy is that if you already have unwanted house guests, that's all the more reason to keep additional ones out.


good luck


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## daArch

chrisn said:


> good luck


Chris,

Explore your firewall and how to customize what IP's can walk in unannounced. As the internet turns more into the wild west sheriffed by Wall Street, it's enlightening to know that we can actually control the in and out flow.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> Chris,
> 
> Explore your firewall and how to customize what IP's can walk in unannounced. As the internet turns more into the wild west sheriffed by Wall Street, it's enlightening to know that we can actually control the in and out flow.


you think a stinkin firewall is safe?:blink::laughing:


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## daArch

chrisn said:


>


Well, obviously I don't. :no: :no:


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## Wildbill7145

Doing a search for Windows on here was painful.

Anyhoo, anyone got this downloaded yet? Supposedly 14 million computers downloaded this in the background in the first 24 hours.


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## Admin

Wildbill7145 said:


> Doing a search for Windows on here was painful.
> 
> Anyhoo, anyone got this downloaded yet? Supposedly 14 million computers downloaded this in the background in the first 24 hours.


I downloaded it yesterday morning. I actually love it.


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## DrakeB

Just for what it's worth... Firewalls have nothing to do with the government. And you really should download a third party one rather than trust Windows Firewall, because it's awful.

As far as usability goes, it's probably a big step up from the disastrous flop that was Windows 8. I've heard great things about the interface (though, sad to say, most of those "great things" are that it's not Windows 8. It's a bit silly everyone is praising it for going back to being like every other OS in recent memory- usability should be a given, not a bonus). Unfortunately, there are several downsides:

Graphics drivers for Windows 10 are currently quite sparse and in general very, very bad. Probably doesn't influence most of you guys; working in the tech industry at my second job, it very much does me.

There's also several very intrusive and worrying "features." Windows 10 will now automatically share your wifi connection with any of your Skype, Outlook, etc. contacts that happen to be lurking outside of your house. They won't get your password, but they will have unlimited access to your wifi without asking your permission, at all. Further, if you've ever told a friend your wifi password in the past, _their friends will have access to your wifi as well. Potentially complete strangers to you._

The terms of use are also a bit scary- not that that's particularly new to MS.

Chances are most people will keep mindlessly eating out of MS's hand, because that's what they're familiar with and they aren't educated enough or don't care enough to find something better or different. Personally, I dual boot Windows and OS X most of the time. I boot up Linux on occasion and will probably get all three working on the PC I built harmoniously soon. That being said, my Windows 8 install has been pretty hamstrung- go into the registry and disable all the MS "features" I didn't want stealing my personal information, etc.


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## daArch

DrakeB said:


> Just for what it's worth... Firewalls have nothing to do with the government. And you really should download a third party one rather than trust Windows Firewall, because it's awful.
> 
> As far as usability goes, it's probably a big step up from the disastrous flop that was Windows 8. I've heard great things about the interface (though, sad to say, most of those "great things" are that it's not Windows 8. It's a bit silly everyone is praising it for going back to being like every other OS in recent memory- usability should be a given, not a bonus). Unfortunately, there are several downsides:
> 
> Graphics drivers for Windows 10 are currently quite sparse and in general very, very bad. Probably doesn't influence most of you guys; working in the tech industry at my second job, it very much does me.
> 
> There's also several very intrusive and worrying "features." Windows 10 will now automatically share your wifi connection with any of your Skype, Outlook, etc.contacts that happen to be lurking outside of your house. They won't get your password, but they will have unlimited access to your wifi without asking your permission, at all. Further, if you've ever told a friend your wifi password in the past, _their friends will have access to your wifi as well. Potentially complete strangers to you._
> 
> The terms of use are also a bit scary- not that that's particularly new to MS.
> 
> Chances are most people will keep mindlessly eating out of MS's hand, because that's what they're familiar with and they aren't educated enough or don't care enough to find something better or different. Personally, I dual boot Windows and OS X most of the time. I boot up Linux on occasion and will probably get all three working on the PC I built harmoniously soon. That being said, my Windows 8 install has been pretty hamstrung- go into the registry and disable all the MS "features" I didn't want stealing my personal information, etc.


Can I assume there's a list of what graphics cards are supported? Or at least be able to look up an older card and see if it's supported? 

And if my win 10 machine is hard wired and I never use skype or outlook, will my network be at risk ?

that's just WRONG. I'm forever allowing friends access to our wi-fi for their i-Toys. Perhaps this is M$ way of making people afraid to use i-Toys ? 

Any idea on plugging these security holes? Jeeesh, with the increased prevalence of internet spying, hacking, ID theft, etc, one would like to believe Redmond was not cranking out swiss cheese.


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## DrakeB

Your best bet for graphics drivers is to check with your graphics card manufacturer directly via their website. MS's automatical driver detection is flawed at best- the "generic" drivers from manufacturer are usually more reliable and more recent. Intel, AMD (also own ATI), and NVidia should all have auto-detection tools on their website that can (hopefully) at least find you a generic driver that will work with Windows 10, but using the ones built-in has been spotty at best right now.

Regarding the network sharing, I'd have to double check to be sure, but if you ever enter your wifi password on any Windows 10 device on your network, it will automatically be shared. There was another place it took contacts from which I can't remember off hand, but I think it might have been Facebook. There is a way to turn this "feature" off in the control panel if I recall correctly, but unfortunately even this doesn't solve the issue- there's no "ownership" of wifi as far as MS is concerned now, so even if you have it turned off for all of your Windows 10 devices, if any of your friends have your password it will still share it with everyone they know. Unfortunately there's no secure way to stop this entirely unless you've never shared your password with anyone, ever, or unless you convince all of them to turn this "feature" off on all of their Windows 10 devices. Only bright side? People with good phones (read: non-Windows phones) won't share your info.

It might be worth double checking with your wifi device company if they offer any additional security. I know some systems require a two-tiered authentication to access (normal wifi pass and one extra layer) but I'm not sure it's available for any residential machines.

Alternatively, unplug your wifi entirely and move everything to hardwire. Welcome to the future, where you're so scared of MS sharing your info you have to go back to crappier tech to feel secure.


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## DrakeB

Gotdibz said:


> I assume after that first year they will bring large updates (service packs) that you have to pay. I don't see a problem with that model, Apple has been doing incremental updates and no one blinks an eye. I don't understand why Microsoft cant.


Microsoft has been doing incremental updates for most of the last 10+ years, too, essentially. Very little has changed in the underlying OS since they moved on from DOS. As an end user, it might look like a lot has changed, but very little has in reality. Windows 7 was functionally identical to Windows 8, for instance, the only major change was the UI- but that's like changing a coat of paint. The house underneath is still the same, as much as MS would like to convince you that each 'new' operating system is an astonishing new development. The change from 8.1 to 10 is the same. It's the same OS, just with updates and UI tweaks.

The same is true for Apple's OS's since the transition from OS 9 to OS X, with the only major underlying change being the drop for OS 9 (aka Classic) support in OS X 10.6. The biggest difference is that Apple doesn't try to reinvent the wheel every time they update. The just polish and make it a bit sleeker each time. Sometimes they try small changes like Spaces or the Dock. Some of it works (Dock) and sticks around, some of it doesn't (Spaces) and goes away. 

Personally, I'd use a mix of OS X and Linux for most everything if my job didn't require Windows.

TL;DR "new" operating systems in the last decade+ are really the exact same as the old OS's, but with minor tweaks and new features tacked on.


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## SemiproJohn

DrakeB said:


> Microsoft has been doing incremental updates for most of the last 10+ years, too, essentially. Very little has changed in the underlying OS since they moved on from DOS. As an end user, it might look like a lot has changed, but very little has in reality. Windows 7 was functionally identical to Windows 8, for instance, the only major change was the UI- but that's like changing a coat of paint. The house underneath is still the same, as much as MS would like to convince you that each 'new' operating system is an astonishing new development. The change from 8.1 to 10 is the same. It's the same OS, just with updates and UI tweaks.
> 
> The same is true for Apple's OS's since the transition from OS 9 to OS X, with the only major underlying change being the drop for OS 9 (aka Classic) support in OS X 10.6. The biggest difference is that Apple doesn't try to reinvent the wheel every time they update. The just polish and make it a bit sleeker each time. Sometimes they try small changes like Spaces or the Dock. Some of it works (Dock) and sticks around, some of it doesn't (Spaces) and goes away.
> 
> Personally, I'd use a mix of OS X and Linux for most everything if my job didn't require Windows.
> 
> TL;DR "new" operating systems in the last decade+ are really the exact same as the old OS's, but with minor tweaks and new features tacked on.


I'm not the most computer savvy person, but much of what you just described reminds me of "improvements" in laundry detergent. New and improved usually means a prettier box, while the contents remain largely unchanged.


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## DrakeB

SemiproJohn said:


> I'm not the most computer savvy person, but much of what you just described reminds me of "improvements" in laundry detergent. New and improved usually means a prettier box, while the contents remain largely unchanged.


To carry on the banal house metaphor, each update is like a fresh coat of paint. Sometimes you might get new windows or enclose the screen porch or add air conditioning, too- but at the end of the day, it's still the same house. There's nothing specifically wrong with that, but it is a bit unfortunate that they're always marketed as "new."


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## Wildbill7145

I always find it amusing when you grab your regular jug of laundry detergent and it says "NEW LOOK!" on it. That's just silly.

I would agree that not much has changed in windows over the years other than aesthetics.

I've tried using different firewalls over the years. Never found one that didn't cause more problems than they were worth. Peter Norton's products used to be the cat's butt, but when he sold it off to Symantec they went to crap. Badly.

One thing I do know, is that before I do this upgrade to Win 10 I'm backing up all my invoices, drivers, bookmarks, etc. just in case.


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> One thing I do know, is that before I do this upgrade to Win 10 I'm backing up all my invoices, drivers, bookmarks, etc. just in case.


This is probably the best advice you can give anyone before making major changes to their operating system. I have my files backed up on 3 computer hard drives, an external drive, and most of my important stuff with an off-site backup as well. And that's just my personal files.


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## daArch

DrakeB said:


> Your best bet for graphics drivers is to check with your graphics card manufacturer directly via their website. MS's automatical driver detection is flawed at best- the "generic" drivers from manufacturer are usually more reliable and more recent. Intel, AMD (also own ATI), and NVidia should all have auto-detection tools on their website that can (hopefully) at least find you a generic driver that will work with Windows 10, but using the ones built-in has been spotty at best right now.
> 
> Regarding the network sharing, I'd have to double check to be sure, but if you ever enter your wifi password on any Windows 10 device on your network, it will automatically be shared. There was another place it took contacts from which I can't remember off hand, but I think it might have been Facebook. There is a way to turn this "feature" off in the control panel if I recall correctly, but unfortunately even this doesn't solve the issue- there's no "ownership" of wifi as far as MS is concerned now, so even if you have it turned off for all of your Windows 10 devices, if any of your friends have your password it will still share it with everyone they know. Unfortunately there's no secure way to stop this entirely unless you've never shared your password with anyone, ever, or unless you convince all of them to turn this "feature" off on all of their Windows 10 devices. Only bright side? People with good phones (read: non-Windows phones) won't share your info.
> 
> It might be worth double checking with your wifi device company if they offer any additional security. I know some systems require a two-tiered authentication to access (normal wifi pass and one extra layer) but I'm not sure it's available for any residential machines.
> 
> Alternatively, unplug your wifi entirely and move everything to hardwire. Welcome to the future, where you're so scared of MS sharing your info you have to go back to crappier tech to feel secure.


I did a quick search on the network sharing. You can opt out.

This is a good article that explains it better

http://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/07/windows-10-shares-your-wi-fi-with-contacts/

One thing about winders that I like is that most "features" can be customized. YES, you need to do some research and some tweaking, but there is usually a work-around


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## DrakeB

I already mentioned that you can opt-out of it 

But like I mentioned, that still doesn't keep your wife or any of your friends who you've given your password to from mashing "yes" when it pops up. Answering honestly, do you think all of your friends will read the prompt thoroughly or even at all when it comes up, or will they just mash "Yes" so they can get to playing Candy Crush?


Edit: Though I had forgotten that you could edit the SSID of your device to disable this entirely. Still, that's a pretty severely power-user only type deal. It'll work for the more computer savvy of us, but I reckon the vast majority of Windows users could never figure it out if they even knew to try.


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## DrakeB

daArch said:


> One thing about winders that I like is that most "features" can be customized. YES, you need to do some research and some tweaking, but there is usually a work-around


This is true of all OS's, though- and it's least true of Windows out of all of them. For instance, I really have no wish to have Windows Defender trying to tell me what I can and can't do with my own computer, but it's built so deeply into the core of the OS that it can't be fully disabled or removed. Windows does maintenance without telling or asking you, downloads stuff without telling or asking you, and most of this stuff is impossible or extremely hard to stop. With the other OS's, not only do they just not do this kind of stuff, but they also offer easy options to disable features that you dislike without having to do registry hacks and editing device ID's and other insane workarounds. Hell, there's a bunch of programs that Windows won't even let me delete off of the hard drive purely because they're Microsoft programs and people should have those shoved down their throats regardless of whether they want them or not, right?


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## daArch

DrakeB said:


> This is true of all OS's, though- and it's least true of Windows out of all of them. For instance, I really have no wish to have Windows Defender trying to tell me what I can and can't do with my own computer, but it's built so deeply into the core of the OS that it can't be fully disabled or removed. Windows does maintenance without telling or asking you, downloads stuff without telling or asking you, and most of this stuff is impossible or extremely hard to stop. With the other OS's, not only do they just not do this kind of stuff, but they also offer easy options to disable features that you dislike without having to do registry hacks and editing device ID's and other insane workarounds. Hell, there's a bunch of programs that Windows won't even let me delete off of the hard drive purely because they're Microsoft programs and people should have those shoved down their throats regardless of whether they want them or not, right?


Interesting perception.

I've always had the feeling that Macs were the least tweakable. Applephiles are simply adamant that the Jobs-way is the best way and doesn't need customization.

I've always found instructions on the net to get Winders to start or stop doing what I wanted.

And sure Linux is the most accessible to tweaks, but unfortunately it's the real geeks who write those tweaks for other hard core geeks. Mint is supposed to be the most "loser" friendly, but even with it, just getting two Mint machines to network is fraught with bugs - unless you have memorized the network IP of all the computers in the house. And don't even try to explain how to get my Linux boxes to connect via wi-fi. 

I'm going to de-evolve and pull out my slide-rule, typewriter, and tin cans on a string. :thumbsup:


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## SemiproJohn

daArch said:


> Interesting perception.
> 
> I've always had the feeling that Macs were the least tweakable. Applephiles are simply adamant that the Jobs-way is the best way and doesn't need customization.
> 
> I've always found instructions on the net to get Winders to start or stop doing what I wanted.
> 
> And sure Linux is the most accessible to tweaks, but unfortunately it's the real geeks who write those tweaks for other hard core geeks. Mint is supposed to be the most "loser" friendly, but even with it, just getting two Mint machines to network is fraught with bugs - unless you have memorized the network IP of all the computers in the house. And don't even try to explain how to get my Linux boxes to connect via wi-fi.
> 
> *I'm going to de-evolve and pull out my slide-rule, typewriter, and tin cans on a string. :thumbsup:*


*
*

What, no abacus?


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## daArch

SemiproJohn said:


> What, no abacus?


I never learned how to use one, they were before even MY time. :whistling2:


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## DrakeB

daArch said:


> Interesting perception.
> 
> I've always had the feeling that Macs were the least tweakable. Applephiles are simply adamant that the Jobs-way is the best way and doesn't need customization.
> 
> I've always found instructions on the net to get Winders to start or stop doing what I wanted.
> 
> And sure Linux is the most accessible to tweaks, but unfortunately it's the real geeks who write those tweaks for other hard core geeks. Mint is supposed to be the most "loser" friendly, but even with it, just getting two Mint machines to network is fraught with bugs - unless you have memorized the network IP of all the computers in the house. And don't even try to explain how to get my Linux boxes to connect via wi-fi.
> 
> I'm going to de-evolve and pull out my slide-rule, typewriter, and tin cans on a string. :thumbsup:


Macs are actually quite tweakable, much like Linux- given that they're both Unix systems, this makes sense. It's a matter of know-how, much like Linux, though usually a good deal more accessible. Rarely ever needed to sudo on OS X, have to all the time on Linux.


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## DrakeB

http://imgur.com/gallery/8OJ4t

For the record.

I think the Windows service guy is probably wrong (surprise) but I do think if you change your HD or motherboard you will lose your license to Windows 10 and have to re-purchase. Welcome to Microsoft's idea of "free."


----------



## Wildbill7145

I have to wonder what happens if something goes seriously wrong on your PC and you have to reinstall your OS from scratch? Would you then have to purchase a license?


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> I have to wonder what happens if something goes seriously wrong on your PC and you have to reinstall your OS from scratch? Would you then have to purchase a license?


According to everything I've read, Windows 10 will check a unique key on both your motherboard and your hard drive when you attempt to reinstall Windows 10. If either one of those has changed, you'll be required to purchase a new license. Of course, things are still a bit foggy so this could change, but as it currently stands that seems to be the case. A bit unfortunate since hard drive changes are pretty common; motherboard mostly not so much.


----------



## Gotdibz

Wildbill7145 said:


> I have to wonder what happens if something goes seriously wrong on your PC and you have to reinstall your OS from scratch? Would you then have to purchase a license?


if you have a FULL RETAIL version of Win10,
Includes transfer rights to another computer.

If you have an OEM or Upgrade, then you might be out of luck.

For those wondering I got my upgrade on 1 of my PCs.
for the other that didn't receive update, I went to Microsoft website downloaded the MediaCreationTool to make an ISO file for my thumb drive. No need to wait on Microsoft, You first have to "upgrade" and then you can do a Clean install if you want. I did not use a key(skip), Microsoft servers will recognize if your computer has a genuine license. Search the web there's a few How to's or just wait your turn.

Link to Microsoft http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10


----------



## straight_lines

Liking the new os on my surface. Love that it was free.


----------



## goga

Wildbill7145 said:


> I have to wonder what happens if something goes seriously wrong on your PC and you have to reinstall your OS from scratch? Would you then have to purchase a license?


As for myself, I don't get the "newest and greatest must have" when OS is taken into account. Still happily using XP on all my notebooks and PCs, runs like a tank, runs everything I use out there. Tried newer systems, neah, stuck with it till no hardware will support it. But as they say - each has its own.


----------



## daArch

goga said:


> As for myself, I don't get the "newest and greatest must have" when OS is taken into account. Still happily using XP on all my notebooks and PCs, runs like a tank, runs everything I use out there. Tried newer systems, neah, stuck with it till no hardware will support it. But as they say - each has its own.


I can really empathize - I tried to stick with XP for as long as possible. But finally gave into to 7 when I need proggies that needed the newer OS.

And just last week the screen on my lappy broke, so there goes my last XP machine 

BTW, on this machine - my main work-a-day one, it boots up SOOOOO much faster with 7 than XP. As resistant as I was to 7, with the proper tweaks, it is an improvement over XP. 

I'm very reticent to upgrade this to 10. I'll have to try 10 on my recently purchased 8.1 machine.


----------



## goga

daArch said:


> I can really empathize - I tried to stick with XP for as long as possible. But finally gave into to 7 when I need proggies that needed the newer OS.
> 
> And just last week the screen on my lappy broke, so there goes my last XP machine
> 
> BTW, on this machine - my main work-a-day one, it boots up SOOOOO much faster with 7 than XP. As resistant as I was to 7, with the proper tweaks, it is an improvement over XP.
> 
> I'm very reticent to upgrade this to 10. I'll have to try 10 on my recently purchased 8.1 machine.


I never shut the PCs down, 24/7, hibernate or stand by, so boot times have never played a key role in my case. Kid using 7, cause newer games. I'm getting IBMs T series from eBay, cheap, nice to work with, tough, run XP)

But yeah, 7 is a nice system when you get used to it. 

PS: For me.. I need to do fax service editing and sending which 7 is lacking, so that's the main reason for XP.


----------



## SemiproJohn

Not to derail this Windows 10 thread, but I have to share my annoyance pertaining to "updating" in general.

For the last six years or so, I have been using itunes on my Windows-based computer to play and burn music which is stored on an external drive. I have about 200 gigs of music.

I have had no problems with this method. That is, until I decided in a moment of great faith and stupidity to click on the "itunes version blah blah needs updating. Do you wish to update now?" I ignored this message for over 2 years. Guess what? After clicking to update, I receive a message that itunes was improperly installed, and that I need to re-install it. After 4 attempts (uninstalling, re-installing), and after googling the error message, etc. I gave up. I am now using Windows Media Player (reluctantly).

I don't feel as if we should have to be computer geeks to successfully click on an update prompt. Ok, I'm done with my rant. Back to Windows 10 talk!


----------



## daArch

SemiproJohn said:


> Not to derail this Windows 10 thread, but I have to share my annoyance pertaining to "updating" in general.
> 
> For the last six years or so, I have been using itunes on my Windows-based computer to play and burn music which is stored on an external drive. I have about 200 gigs of music.
> 
> I have had no problems with this method. That is, until I decided in a moment of great faith and stupidity to click on the "itunes version blah blah needs updating. Do you wish to update now?" I ignored this message for over 2 years. Guess what? After clicking to update, I receive a message that itunes was improperly installed, and that I need to re-install it. After 4 attempts (uninstalling, re-installing), and after googling the error message, etc. I gave up. I am now using Windows Media Player (reluctantly).
> 
> I don't feel as if we should have to be computer geeks to successfully click on an update prompt. Ok, I'm done with my rant. Back to Windows 10 talk!


DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT F-ING iTUNES.

After HOURS of trying to back grade to 10.6 (Win 8.1), I found the way. If I can relocate the steps, I'll post them.

BUT first try this, right click the install exe file and "Run as administrator", it MAY work.

iTunes 12.x.x just plain SUCKS btw. There is NO way to load a playlist in YOUR play order onto a device.


----------



## SemiproJohn

daArch said:


> DON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT F-ING iTUNES.
> 
> After HOURS of trying to back grade to 10.6 (Win 8.1), I found the way. If I can relocate the steps, I'll post them.
> 
> BUT first try this, right click the install exe file and "Run as administrator", it MAY work.
> 
> iTunes 12.x.x just plain SUCKS btw. There is NO way to load a playlist in YOUR play order onto a device.


Thanks Bill. I'll give that a try just for the masochistic thrill. 
I've been screwing with media player...it works fine as far as burning discs, but I'm still having trouble getting all my music imported into it. I might as well torture myself further and try to re-install itunes again.


----------



## daArch

SemiproJohn said:


> Thanks Bill. I'll give that a try just for the masochistic thrill.
> I've been screwing with media player...it works fine as far as burning discs, but I'm still having trouble getting all my music imported into it. I might as well torture myself further and try to re-install itunes again.


John,

When I back graded to 10.6 (after STUPIDLY okaying an upgrade :cursing: :wallbash I was advised to delete ALL apple apps/proggies/etc. NOT only through the control panel, but also through the registry. (obviously DO NOT remove your music,vid, etc files) 

Before you do that, if you have any playlists you want to keep, save them somewhere, they are small files (xls ?)

I'll try to find time to find that interweb forum post I found. I think my search parameters was something like "itunes error message ...."[I can't even remember now the message I got, I'll have to look on that computer] 

This was over a week ago, so it will take some time.


----------



## daArch

OK, found it. 

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5418367?start=0&tstart=0

scroll to post by Crusisx on Mar 19, 2014 11:44 AM

he/she says (apparently english is an alternate language)



> Had this issue, and none of the solutions above worked, here is what I did to fix the issue, Install Itunes like you normally would, admin rights ect. When you get the error message "Itunes errors occurred during installation before itunes could be configured" do not click finish, leave that folder up, no navigate to your appdata directory such as example C:\Users\Your Username\appdata\local\temp, inside there look for a file called iTunes64Setup.log or iTunes32Setup1850.log, open that up and scroll down, look for these key things as in example, "Executing: "C:\windows\system32\msiexec.exe" /i "C:\Users\Crusisxx\AppData\Local\Temp\IXP593.TMP\iTunes64.msi" INSTALL_SUPPORT_PACKAGES=1" so I would navigate inside the folder in my temp called "IXP593.TMP, there you will find all the installation packages, copy all of those files and paste either on your desktop or a new folder ect, once done you can now click finish on the failed itunes installer, now whether or not where ever you decided to place your files you copied from that temp folder you will want to run Itunes64.msi or Itunes.msi ect, and run the installer, you should now have successfully of installed Itunes.


So let me try to describe better what it means. As he said, do not click finish (if you do, the installation files will be removed from the temp folder)

As said, move to your C:\Users\_username_\appdata\local\temp dierctory and find the log file for the itunes set up. What I did was viewed the files details and ordered by date modified - brought the log file right to the top. (make sure all hidden files are not hidden).

The next step is to search that log file just to find the iTunes64.msi and related installation files. Since I am running 64 bit, those files were in 

C:\Users\_username_\AppData\Local\Temp\IXP106.TMP

In that folder should be these (or similar) files:
AppleApplicationSupport.msi
AppleMobileDeviceSupport64.msi
AppleSoftwareUpdate.msi
Bonjour64.msi
iTunes64.msi
SetupAdmin.exe

I copied that whole IXP106.TMP folder to my desktop

As instructed, I now hit the "Finish" button on the failed installation. I opened up the folder I just copied to my desktop and clicked "iTunes64.msi" and watched the successful install - pressing prompts as it went smoothly ahead. 

If you have a 32 bit system, I am sure you can figure out Crusisx' instructions.

If you don't understand any of this, just do what I did and blunder forward using your good sense.


----------



## daArch

BTW,

I found this AFTER I had removed all apple crap from my computer. I don't know if that step was necessary, but I am glad that I got that extraneous stuff off.


----------



## daArch

ALSO there are many alternatives to iTunes. I only torture myself with it because we have too many iToys that may get totally f'ed up if I go to MediaMonkey, which I have on my main box (I'm now on the box we use for music and the WW's stuff)


----------



## Wildbill7145

daArch said:


> ALSO there are many alternatives to iTunes.


A short while ago, we got an android box for our home theater system. It has a streaming MP3 app. We've been throwing every single obscure artist, album, song at it we could think of. It hasn't failed to be able to stream anything whatsoever.

Did you know Johnny Cash made a children's album? Fulsom Prison Blues was on it? For some reason kids love that song.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Wildbill7145 said:


> A short while ago, we got an android box for our home theater system. It has a streaming MP3 app. We've been throwing every single obscure artist, album, song at it we could think of. It hasn't failed to be able to stream anything whatsoever.
> 
> Did you know Johnny Cash made a children's album? Fulsom Prison Blues was on it? For some reason kids love that song.


I love my android box. It makes roku and apple TV look like child's play. 

If you really want to amp it up look up how to install kodi and add some repositories like 1channel. You'll be able to watch virtually any movie/TV show ever made. :yes:


----------



## Wildbill7145

Rbriggs82 said:


> I love my android box. It makes roku and apple TV look like child's play.
> 
> If you really want to amp it up look up how to install kodi and add some repositories like 1channel. You'll be able to watch virtually any movie/TV show ever made. :yes:


Yep. Got KODI running. We use the Genesis addon. Absolutely never paying for cable tv ever again. Sometimes the streams are a little slow with buffering, but you can often find a different stream.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yep. Got KODI running. We use the Genesis addon. Absolutely never paying for cable tv ever again. Sometimes the streams are a little slow with buffering, but you can often find a different stream.


Good man! Genesis and 1channel are my favorites. Cut the cord 6 months ago and haven't looked back.  :


----------



## Wildbill7145

Rbriggs82 said:


> Good man! Genesis and 1channel are my favorites. Cut the cord 6 months ago and haven't looked back.  :



Not to completely derail this thread, but you should check out:

http://www.tvaddons.ag/

I run KODI on my pc as well. Test addons that way before installing on android box.


----------



## daArch

Wildbill7145 said:


> A short while ago, we got an android box for our home theater system. It has a streaming MP3 app. We've been throwing every single obscure artist, album, song at it we could think of. It hasn't failed to be able to stream anything whatsoever.
> 
> Did you know Johnny Cash made a children's album? Fulsom Prison Blues was on it? For some reason kids love that song.


so it's a streaming service?

Cost ?

Two priorities I have for my music, OWN IT, and pay little or nothing for it - no subscription fees . . . .


----------



## Rbriggs82

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not to completely derail this thread, but you should check out:
> 
> http://www.tvaddons.ag/
> 
> I run KODI on my pc as well. Test addons that way before installing on android box.


Bill loves a good derail.  

Do you run xbmc or tvmc on your PC? 


Wildbill7145 said:


> Not to completely derail this thread, but you should check out:
> 
> http://www.tvaddons.ag/
> 
> I run KODI on my pc as well. Test addons that way before installing on android box.



Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## daArch

Rbriggs82 said:


> Bill loves a good derail.


I do indeed. Never seen me complain or close, unless it turns nasty and personal :thumbsup:


----------



## Wildbill7145

daArch said:


> so it's a streaming service?
> 
> Cost ?
> 
> Two priorities I have for my music, OWN IT, and pay little or nothing for it - no subscription fees . . . .


You really should check these out Bill. You purchase the android box, plug it in to your router, install XMBC/KODI and that's pretty much it. No further costs. The android boxes run around $100.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find just about any tv show that's ever been on TV, every movie, every song that's ever played on the radio.

After dumping cable TV, this thing paid for itself in the first month.

You don't own any of the content though. You are streaming it from the interweb.

Try out KODI on your computer first and see if you like it.

http://kodi.tv/

Go to TVADDONS and download and install Genesis:
http://addons.tvaddons.ag/show/plugin.video.genesis/

We got the Matricom GBox Q android box and we love it.


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## Rbriggs82

I have gbox :yes: when I bought it from Amazon I also bought a "key" that plugs in and installs kodi + the most popular addons automatically. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## daArch

Wildbill7145 said:


> You really should check these out Bill. You purchase the android box, plug it in to your router, install XMBC/KODI and that's pretty much it. No further costs. The android boxes run around $100.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find just about any tv show that's ever been on TV, every movie, every song that's ever played on the radio.
> 
> After dumping cable TV, this thing paid for itself in the first month.
> 
> You don't own any of the content though. You are streaming it from the interweb.
> 
> Try out KODI on your computer first and see if you like it.
> 
> http://kodi.tv/
> 
> Go to TVADDONS and download and install Genesis:
> http://addons.tvaddons.ag/show/plugin.video.genesis/
> 
> We got the Matricom GBox Q android box and we love it.


Damn you "kids" with your new fangled picture boxes. When I was your age . . . . 

seriously, thanks Bill, I'll HAVE to look into it more. 

This what I love about PT, it ain't just business and techniques about paint and paper :thumbup:


----------



## Wildbill7145

daArch said:


> Damn you "kids" with your new fangled picture boxes. When I was your age . . . .
> 
> seriously, thanks Bill, I'll HAVE to look into it more.
> 
> This what I love about PT, it ain't just business and techniques about paint and paper :thumbup:


Yep, no problem. I think it came up a while ago in your thread about partition size on your hard drive (yet another derail).

Anyhoo, try it out on your PC first. It's free. The insane thing is that sometimes you can actually watch movies at home, on your TV.... When they're still in the theaters.

I have also yet to find any information about streaming from the interweb that indicates it is illegal in any way shape or form.


----------



## Wildbill7145

Rbriggs82 said:


> I have gbox :yes: when I bought it from Amazon I also bought a "key" that plugs in and installs kodi + the most popular addons automatically.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


Huh, I've heard of the keys. Didn't bother getting one, just did it myself. (stupid stubborn OMS determined to OMS independently).

If you ever need customer support, don't bother getting in touch with Matricom themselves. They're absolutely brutal. Just surf the forums.

One thing we determined with the GBox Q was that the remote it comes with sucks. Horrible. Got a Logitech K400 wireless keyboard/mouse combo and tossed the remote. Couldn't be happier. Wife has spilled my drink on it several times and the thing keeps on truckin'. I think she's trying to send me a message.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Yeah the first thing I did was toss that remote. I can't remember the brand I got but it's a keyboard mouse combo like you have, way better. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## Epoxy Pro

Just installed it. So far it is ok. I hate the start menue, no more eq in my audio settings. Other than that I've had it for a couple of hours now.


----------



## Wildbill7145

cdpainting said:


> Just installed it. So far it is ok. I hate the start menue, no more eq in my audio settings. Other than that I've had it for a couple of hours now.


Did you make a recovery disk prior to upgrading? No way am I doing the install until I get that process accomplished.

Edit: Holy crap, I just realized that my upgrade is ready to go and I haven't done my own recovery disk yet! I'm not going ahead without that.


----------



## daArch

My preliminary investigation (asking two 20-somthings) indicates that this is a torrent streaming app.

Not to say ALL torrents provide "underground" material, but in terms of movies, music, etc, bit-torrents are associated with high profile servers such as Pirate-Bay.

AND not that I have a lot of ethical questions about those types of torrents, but it does raise the specter of risks. I also understand there is a HUGE grey legal area and controversy between downloading and uploading. And that said, who pays the royalties for the end user to view these?


----------



## Wildbill7145

daArch said:


> My preliminary investigation (asking two 20-somthings) indicates that this is a torrent streaming app.
> 
> Not to say ALL torrents provide "underground" material, but in terms of movies, music, etc, bit-torrents are associated with high profile servers such as Pirate-Bay.
> 
> AND not that I have a lot of ethical questions about those types of torrents, but it does raise the specter of risks. I also understand there is a HUGE grey legal area and controversy between downloading and uploading. And that said, who pays the royalties for the end user to view these?



It's not really bit torrent tech, but it is streaming. The content isn't coming from sites like Pirate bay though.

There are some illegal/pirate type addons, but many that aren't.

I'll get into this more later. Just on a break from breaking bad when my Mominlaw called.


----------



## daArch

Wildbill7145 said:


> It's not really bit torrent tech, but it is streaming. The content isn't coming from sites like Pirate bay though.
> 
> There are some illegal/pirate type addons, but many that aren't.
> 
> I'll get into this more later. Just on a break from breaking bad when my Mominlaw called.


Oh I know that there is more LEGAL bit-torrents flowing across the web than illegal content linked from those high profile sites such as PB and others

My son wanted to know if the streaming is routed through VPN's (Virtual Private Networks) for security.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Hey Bill have any good add-ons for live TV you could recommend? 
I'm not sure of the legality of it all but you are not downloading anything. Instead you are streaming much like YouTube and that's where the legal gray comes into play. 

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


----------



## Wildbill7145

daArch said:


> Oh I know that there is more LEGAL bit-torrents flowing across the web than illegal content linked from those high profile sites such as PB and others
> 
> My son wanted to know if the streaming is routed through VPN's (Virtual Private Networks) for security.


I honestly have no idea. I was just checking out the KODI forum today and learned more about the legality issues than I knew before today.

Either way, getting back to winX, prior to upgrading I'd recommend everyone run a belarc advisor scan and print it out before upgrading as well. Gives you all your hardware specs, key codes, etc. All in a printable format.


----------



## Wildbill7145

Rbriggs82 said:


> Hey Bill have any good add-ons for live TV you could recommend?
> I'm not sure of the legality of it all but you are not downloading anything. Instead you are streaming much like YouTube and that's where the legal gray comes into play.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


I'm still learning about all this stuff too, so I don't have any info about live TV stuff. I spent hours trying to figure out how to watch the superbowl which one would think would have been easy. I'm not exactly tech stupid and I couldn't figure it out.

This whole thing is indeed a grey area. I know they don't like you talking about Genesis on the KODI forums. That does not appear to be a grey area.


----------



## Epoxy Pro

Wildbill7145 said:


> Did you make a recovery disk prior to upgrading? No way am I doing the install until I get that process accomplished.
> 
> Edit: Holy crap, I just realized that my upgrade is ready to go and I haven't done my own recovery disk yet! I'm not going ahead without that.


I did on my laptop but not my PC. laptop is all business stuff, pc is for what ever.


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Either way, getting back to winX, prior to upgrading I'd recommend everyone run a belarc advisor scan and print it out before upgrading as well. Gives you all your hardware specs, key codes, etc. All in a printable format.


You should also be able to get most if not all of this information by typing "dxdiag" without the quotation marks into the "Run" field.



Regarding legality, rest assured that if you're watching movies prior to them leaving theaters, it's illegal- both for them to distribute and for you to watch. The middle-man distributors sometimes get away with it "legally" by saying they just query other sites for content and thus they aren't responsible for what they stream to you. Skirts the word of the law quite nicely.

At the end of the day, you just have to decide what you're willing to do and not do. I prefer to own my stuff the majority of the time; otherwise I use services like Netflix and Hulu. Chances of you ever getting in trouble for this kind of thing is relatively low, though you should be aware that your ISP knows when you're torrenting and streaming and holds on to those records, and also that those records are available at the snap of a finger to the courts. Just information to keep in mind.


----------



## Wildbill7145

Yep, I still haven't watched too many movies or TV on it for that matter. There have been very few movies in the last few decades I've had any interest in watching. I basically watch CBC's The National every night because I'm a boring middle aged Canadian.

My wife's been loving the hell out of Netflix on the box though. She likes that it suggests stuff to you based on your viewing history.

Regarding the WIN10 upgrade, I just started the backup process. I had no idea it was going to backup the whole primary drive. Found a handful of blank DVDs until I realized I was going to need about a hundred of them!

Brought back memories of backing up a 40Mb drive and having a stack of 3.5" disks 25 years ago. Ended up shoving the backup on my external 1Tb drive as it still had enough space.


----------



## Wildbill7145

I was just thinking of my process here though. What's the point in backing up my boot drive to an external drive when the external drive isn't bootable? Or is it?


----------



## johnnyb

My alienware which is a full time job of its own to keep running, has the option under the bios settings that I've had to do many times. Can change the boot order sequence from there, and I just would set it as usb first, then hard disk or cd drive etc.

Only reason I mentioned the type of computer, is dell decided to make things real goofy with those, but I would imagine you can access the boot sequence that way. They make them so unique, they barely know how to work on them, after 30+ hours with tech support I became my own tech support lol.

Because of how much they abandoned drivers with those machines is what led me here reading about windows 10, knowing I'll be using it on my new laptop. On a 2 in 1 hp laptop now running windows 10, coming straight from windows 7 was a pretty easy transition for me. Still learning something new with it though, thank goodness for search engines.


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> I was just thinking of my process here though. What's the point in backing up my boot drive to an external drive when the external drive isn't bootable? Or is it?


I don't back up anything other than my files, to be honest. Backing up boot drive is only really relevant if you haven't backed up your files(!) or aren't competent enough to just do a full reinstall if something goes wrong.

Though, thinking of that, maybe you'd have to buy Windows 10 if you had to do a full reinstall. So I guess there's your reason. And yes, external drive should be bootable via BIOS as long as it's connected.


----------



## DrakeB

johnnyb said:


> My alienware which is a full time job of its own to keep running, has the option under the bios settings that I've had to do many times. Can change the boot order sequence from there, and I just would set it as usb first, then hard disk or cd drive etc.
> 
> Only reason I mentioned the type of computer, is dell decided to make things real goofy with those, but I would imagine you can access the boot sequence that way. They make them so unique, they barely know how to work on them, after 30+ hours with tech support I became my own tech support lol.
> 
> Because of how much they abandoned drivers with those machines is what led me here reading about windows 10, knowing I'll be using it on my new laptop. On a 2 in 1 hp laptop now running windows 10, coming straight from windows 7 was a pretty easy transition for me. Still learning something new with it though, thank goodness for search engines.


Unfortunately, Alienware went to hell really fast when it became Dellienware. I don't think Dell knew what they were getting into, and the only thing they've kept the same since was the goofy look and the big markup.


----------



## Wildbill7145

DrakeB said:


> I don't back up anything other than my files, to be honest. Backing up boot drive is only really relevant if you haven't backed up your files(!) or aren't competent enough to just do a full reinstall if something goes wrong.
> 
> Though, thinking of that, maybe you'd have to buy Windows 10 if you had to do a full reinstall. So I guess there's your reason. And yes, external drive should be bootable via BIOS as long as it's connected.


That's the way I used to do backups in the old days. Just data. But so much stuff comes preinstalled these days and you don't get DVDs or CDs to reinstall. Downloadable software, etc. I never even got a DVD with Windows 7 on it when I got my Acer desktop, although I have a valid registered copy of windows on the machine.

I keep all my data (pics, videos, etc.) on the external hard drive.

Basically I just want a way back if something goes wrong during the installation.


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> That's the way I used to do backups in the old days. Just data. But so much stuff comes preinstalled these days and you don't get DVDs or CDs to reinstall. Downloadable software, etc. I never even got a DVD with Windows 7 on it when I got my Acer desktop, although I have a valid registered copy of windows on the machine.
> 
> I keep all my data (pics, videos, etc.) on the external hard drive.
> 
> Basically I just want a way back if something goes wrong during the installation.


Yah that's understandable. I usually keep a backup copy of my OS disc image on a USB stick. I don't like not having a hard copy backup.


----------



## Wildbill7145

Well, this was anticlimactic. I guess I was expecting a little more excitement after upgrading.

I got no excitement.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Wildbill7145 said:


> Well, this was anticlimactic. I guess I was expecting a little more excitement after upgrading.
> 
> I got no excitement.


I haven't gotten excited about windows since 3.1.


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Well, this was anticlimactic. I guess I was expecting a little more excitement after upgrading.
> 
> I got no excitement.


That's the best possible outcome after upgrading, honestly.


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## daArch

Son Jake says he's heard rumors that with 10, Micro$oft can decide it doesn't approve of software you are running and prevent it from running, for whatever reason. Purportedly to protect us from malware and to protect intellectual properties from being pirated, but others feel it opens the door for MS to block usage of Open Office, Chrome, and anything else that doesn't provide cash flow to Redmond.

Anyone know anything about this? I haven't had time to search - and besides which, I much prefer to spread unsubstantiated rumors :thumbsup:


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## chrisn

Wildbill7145 said:


> Well, this was anticlimactic. I guess I was expecting a little more excitement after upgrading.
> 
> I got no excitement.


I got pissed at it and went back to 8.1, I feel much better now


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> Son Jake says he's heard rumors that with 10, Micro$oft can decide it doesn't approve of software you are running and prevent it from running, for whatever reason. Purportedly to protect us from malware and to protect intellectual properties from being pirated, but others feel it opens the door for MS to block usage of Open Office, Chrome, and anything else that doesn't provide cash flow to Redmond.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this? I haven't had time to search - and besides which, I much prefer to spread unsubstantiated rumors :thumbsup:


Would not surprise me in the least, I cannot be specific but when I was done "upgrading" things were just not right, so I went back to what I knew.


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## goga

daArch said:


> Son Jake says he's heard rumors that with 10, Micro$oft can decide it doesn't approve of software you are running and prevent it from running, for whatever reason. Purportedly to protect us from malware and to protect intellectual properties from being pirated, but others feel it opens the door for MS to block usage of Open Office, Chrome, and anything else that doesn't provide cash flow to Redmond.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this? I haven't had time to search - and besides which, I much prefer to spread unsubstantiated rumors :thumbsup:


The bigger number of Windows there is, the bigger bloatware is inserted into checking if it is what it is and why it is. MS only and don't ask why))

PS: I used to work for them, don't even mention it..


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## DrakeB

daArch said:


> Son Jake says he's heard rumors that with 10, Micro$oft can decide it doesn't approve of software you are running and prevent it from running, for whatever reason. Purportedly to protect us from malware and to protect intellectual properties from being pirated, but others feel it opens the door for MS to block usage of Open Office, Chrome, and anything else that doesn't provide cash flow to Redmond.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this? I haven't had time to search - and besides which, I much prefer to spread unsubstantiated rumors :thumbsup:


As far as I know, they've had this ability for quite a while. Windows Granny (UAC is what they actually call it) that's always popping up going "are you sure you want to do that, dearie?" has had the power to shut you out from anything they wanted to for a long time.

Though, in the interest of full disclosure, OS X has had that capability for a while now as well (at least in theory), but they've been responsible about it so far.


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## Wildbill7145

My understanding from what I read about the upgrade yesterday that it could detect pirated games and prevent them from running. The article I read didn't mention applications, but I would assume it could do the same.


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> My understanding from what I read about the upgrade yesterday that it could detect pirated games and prevent them from running. The article I read didn't mention applications, but I would assume it could do the same.


That's... very interesting. I wonder how they think they can manage that? There's no way for a computer to know whether a game is pirated or not unless it ran some kind of checksum on the files (and even then, they can usually be spoofed), and even doing it that way would require a full database of checksums for each game you were checking. Maybe it's just for games that you could normally buy from the MS Store or whatever. Sounds like a "feature" I'd delete ASAP.


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## Wildbill7145

DrakeB said:


> That's... very interesting. I wonder how they think they can manage that? There's no way for a computer to know whether a game is pirated or not unless it ran some kind of checksum on the files (and even then, they can usually be spoofed), and even doing it that way would require a full database of checksums for each game you were checking. Maybe it's just for games that you could normally buy from the MS Store or whatever. Sounds like a "feature" I'd delete ASAP.


Yep, you're right. They clarified yesterday this only pertained to Xbox live and Windows Store products. Not all pirated software.

One functionality I'm really surprised they disabled was the ability to apply scheduled virus scans. My understanding is that MSE is gone, and Windows Defender is the new anti virus app. You have to run virus scans manually. That makes no sense.

Lol, I'm probably not reading that right either.


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yep, you're right. They clarified yesterday this only pertained to Xbox live and Windows Store products. Not all pirated software.
> 
> One functionality I'm really surprised they disabled was the ability to apply scheduled virus scans. My understanding is that MSE is gone, and Windows Defender is the new anti virus app. You have to run virus scans manually. That makes no sense.
> 
> Lol, I'm probably not reading that right either.


MSE has actually been gone or disabled since Windows 7 if I recall correctly. A lot of the files were still lingering on the OS, and many references to it, but Defender has replaced it fully already.

Just hazarding a guess, I think the virus scans may have been rolled into the "system maintenance" that Windows does without your permission all the time. This is one of the things I absolutely deplore about more recent Windows OS's. I'm trying to do CPU or read/write intensive tasks and everything gets bogged down even with one of the best CPU's in the industry because Windows is doing something I didn't ask it to and chugging all my resources. 

Unfortunately, Windows Defender is insanely hard to tear out of the OS, since they've made it critical to tons of different systems (much like UAC is). Most people know how utter garbage Windows virus scanners have always been (not to mention not having any real-time protection to speak of), so even if I have a third party virus scanner active I can't get Windows Defender to stop existing.


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## daArch

In my quest to research Win 10 before I let it run my life, this is one article whose author had lost total faith in M$ but is now embracing Win 10



Installing Windows 10 convinced me that Microsoft is back


here are a couple of passages to tweak your interest



> I had thought I would never install a Microsoft operating system ever again after my experience with Windows 8. It was terrible: inelegant, difficult and expensive. It took me about 10 minutes to conclude that Microsoft had lost touch with its customers and was destined to go the way of AOL and Myspace, and I switched all I could to Apple.





> The CIOs said that Microsoft is a much better company to deal with than Apple, which has become known for arrogance and a lack of concern for the needs of enterprise customers.





> The default options for consumers in the Windows 10 installation are indeed problematic. I would not suggest that anyone use its default installation settings. They grant Microsoft the right to use your data to market to you; to automatically connect you to Wi-Fi networks and marketing "beacons;" and to sell some of your information. But all of these options can be turned off. Microsoft is actually being more honest than other technology companies are that do much of this without informing customers and hide details in the lengthy contracts that no one reads.


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## johnnyb

The downside for me is that microsoft is linking the OS to the hard drive. So if your hard drive fails, you'll need to go buy a hard drive, then an official copy of windows 10. Then from there, every future hard drive failure you can use that copy of win 10 you bought to reinstall for any future swaps. Even with this computer I'm using now which came out of the box with win10.

While I love the simplicity of apple making both the hardware and the software, so things run smooth, it's too much of a dictatorship for me. You can by all means tell me that my screen made in japan won't work well with the hard drive from korea, and the firmware from the china complicating things with the parts were made from the philippines. :yes: I agree with ya too lol, I just like as little puppet strings attached as possible.

For me computers are getting like politics, I have to settle for which ever one I hate the least. For me microsoft isn't back, they're getting more money hungry, but that just seems the way any big business is getting for me. If windows gets much worse I'll just start to learn linux.

During my recent laptop setups (1 lenovo I took back, and the HP I'm using now), I wait to connect it to the internet after I'm done setting up the computer, and after I remove all bloatware and set everything auto to manual. For me, this has been the biggest help on having gone through all this.


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## DrakeB

johnnyb said:


> While I love the simplicity of apple making both the hardware and the software, so things run smooth, it's too much of a dictatorship for me. You can by all means tell me that my screen made in japan won't work well with the hard drive from korea, and the firmware from the china complicating things with the parts were made from the philippines. :yes: I agree with ya too lol, I just like as little puppet strings attached as possible.


Have you ever heard of a Hackintosh? Apple doesn't tell you you can't use your own tech to use their computers, it's just a bit more complicated than buying one at the store- just like making your own PC is a bit more complicated than buying one at the store. In that regards, the only difference between them and Windows is that they make the tech in-house so it's guaranteed to be compatible and good quality (unlike manufacturers of PCs, where neither is guaranteed or even likely in some cases). It's still pretty simple to use whatever computer you want to run OS X.


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## johnnyb

DrakeB said:


> Have you ever heard of a Hackintosh? Apple doesn't tell you you can't use your own tech to use their computers, it's just a bit more complicated than buying one at the store- just like making your own PC is a bit more complicated than buying one at the store. In that regards, the only difference between them and Windows is that they make the tech in-house so it's guaranteed to be compatible and good quality (unlike manufacturers of PCs, where neither is guaranteed or even likely in some cases). It's still pretty simple to use whatever computer you want to run OS X.


Great point Drake, I have heard of hackintosh. I do love how they make in house, like ya said things actually get built with some quality.

For the future that will probably be the ticket for me. :thumbsup:

Looks like from now till my budget for that computer comes together, I have some research to do :yes:


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## daArch

johnnyb said:


> The downside for me is that microsoft is linking the OS to the hard drive. So if your hard drive fails, you'll need to go buy a hard drive, then an official copy of windows 10. Then from there, every future hard drive failure you can use that copy of win 10 you bought to reinstall for any future swaps. Even with this computer I'm using now which came out of the box with win10.
> 
> While I love the simplicity of apple making both the hardware and the software, so things run smooth, it's too much of a dictatorship for me. You can by all means tell me that my screen made in japan won't work well with the hard drive from korea, and the firmware from the china complicating things with the parts were made from the philippines. :yes: I agree with ya too lol, I just like as little puppet strings attached as possible.
> 
> For me computers are getting like politics, I have to settle for which ever one I hate the least. For me microsoft isn't back, they're getting more money hungry, but that just seems the way any big business is getting for me. If windows gets much worse I'll just start to learn linux.
> 
> During my recent laptop setups (1 lenovo I took back, and the HP I'm using now), I wait to connect it to the internet after I'm done setting up the computer, and after I remove all bloatware and set everything auto to manual. For me, this has been the biggest help on having gone through all this.


I know this rumor is spreading fast, but it apparently has no truth in reality.

The digital entitlement will be registered with a hardware ID, which is unique to your PC. It is comprised of information about the CPU, motherboard and, if available, TPM (Trusted Platform Module). 

When this was first mentioned here, I've searched and searched and can find no reliable confirmation that one needs to buy a new license each time the OS's hard drive is swapped.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> In my quest to research Win 10 before I let it run my life, this is one article whose author had lost total faith in M$ but is now embracing Win 10
> 
> 
> 
> Installing Windows 10 convinced me that Microsoft is back
> 
> 
> here are a couple of passages to tweak your interest


So does this mean you are going for it?:blink:


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## daArch

chrisn said:


> So does this mean you are going for it?:blink:


I'm getting closer. One review said to install over 8/8.1 now but to keep 7 until the next update in October.

I will "upgrade" to 10 on all machines eventually, I'm just trying to figure out which one will be the guinea pig. I think my new 8.1 will be the one since it has the least amount of stuff on it. 

And I am planning to have an "internet machine" and one off line to do a lot of hard work - photo editing etc.


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## DrakeB

daArch said:


> I know this rumor is spreading fast, but it apparently has no truth in reality.
> 
> The digital entitlement will be registered with a hardware ID, which is unique to your PC. It is comprised of information about the CPU, motherboard and, if available, TPM (Trusted Platform Module).
> 
> When this was first mentioned here, I've searched and searched and can find no reliable confirmation that one needs to buy a new license each time the OS's hard drive is swapped.


You may not need to when swapping hard drives; you definitely _will_ need to if you swap your motherboard. Granted, this won't effect most users, but it's still a bit of a downer in my opinion.


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## daArch

DrakeB said:


> You may not need to when swapping hard drives; you definitely _will_ need to if you swap your motherboard. Granted, this won't effect most users, but it's still a bit of a downer in my opinion.


But I believe that is nothing new. You've always have had reactivate if you've swapped a motherboard or or even prolly a CPU. 


Here's a quote:

https://www.thurrott.com/windows/wi...ate-your-pc-with-your-free-windows-10-license



> If it’s something major like a motherboard replacement, its hardware ID will no longer be the same. If this was done by your PC maker or an authorized repair center, no worries: they can inject an OEM key and make sure the system remains activated and will be good going forward (because the new ID is now registered with the store). If you do this yourself, you will need to phone activate.


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## Wildbill7145

I've had this running for about a week now and have noticed virtually nothing different. I suppose I haven't really gone and looked for differences like new apps included or whatever though.


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## DrakeB

daArch said:


> But I believe that is nothing new. You've always have had reactivate if you've swapped a motherboard or or even prolly a CPU.
> 
> 
> Here's a quote:
> 
> https://www.thurrott.com/windows/wi...ate-your-pc-with-your-free-windows-10-license


In the olden days all you needed was a CD key and your CD and you were pretty golden.


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## daArch

DrakeB said:


> In the olden days all you needed was a CD key and your CD and you were pretty golden.


Hell, for XP Professional all you needed was a burned CD and an MIT license . . . . 

Oh wait a minute, I think that still works  :thumbup:

Obviously there was a lot of abuse and M$ didn't like making their OS freeware. 

But don't worry there will be plenty of enterprising young hackers out there that will always beat the system. The honest folks will just place a call to M$ and get the product key and activation code. 

And if the general public don't like supporting either evil empire, there is always Linux.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> I'm getting closer. One review said to install over 8/8.1 now but to keep 7 until the next update in October.
> 
> I will "upgrade" to 10 on all machines eventually, I'm just trying to figure out which one will be the guinea pig. I think my new 8.1 will be the one since it has the least amount of stuff on it.
> 
> And I am planning to have an "internet machine" and one off line to do a lot of hard work - photo editing etc.


good luck, me, I am sticking with 8.1, it works, so why f*$^k with it


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## daArch

chrisn said:


> good luck, me, I am sticking with 8.1, it works, so why f*$^k with it


Did you ever have the opportunity to use Win 7 ? 

Just interested if you had an opinion about the difference between 7 & 8.1. 


(I've gotten familiar with 7, not so with 8.1. I'm hoping the migration to 10 is an easy one from 7)


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## slinger58

chrisn said:


> good luck, me, I am sticking with 8.1, it works, so why f*$^k with it


Yup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## daArch

slinger58 said:


> Yup. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


c'mon, what painter hasn't replaced an UNbroken window


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## slinger58

daArch said:


> c'mon, what painter hasn't replaced an UNbroken window
> View attachment 57569


Lol. Well, ya know it's a lot easier to get the old glazing out once the f**king glass is out of the way. :whistling2:


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## soperfect paint

It will depends upon the type of subscription you have choose.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> Did you ever have the opportunity to use Win 7 ?
> 
> Just interested if you had an opinion about the difference between 7 & 8.1.
> 
> 
> (I've gotten familiar with 7, not so with 8.1. I'm hoping the migration to 10 is an easy one from 7)


I believe I went from 7 to 8.1, but I could not tell you the difference, except that 8.1 is very stable and I have never had a problem with it. If I recall, 7 was good also



now, that was probably the wrong thing to say


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## DrakeB

soperfect paint said:


> It will depends upon the type of subscription you have choose.


Citation?


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## jason123

Ah man I hate when this happens I had a long drawn out reply and the I hit the back button or something.

I dont need the new update and all this hype and me shivering in my boots about this windows 10. Im happy with what I have now windows 7 and haven't updated since may.

This consumer culture is pissy

I almost grabbed a android box recently . We have a few tvs in the household three people and a limit on our data usage, plus I just got a smart tv and it looks like it can do a lot of stuff, so for now I have passed on a box but intend on getting one in a couple years.


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## Wildbill7145

jason123 said:


> Ah man I hate when this happens I had a long drawn out reply and the I hit the back button or something.
> 
> I dont need the new update and all this hype and me shivering in my boots about this windows 10. Im happy with what I have now windows 7 and haven't updated since may.
> 
> This consumer culture is pissy
> 
> I almost grabbed a android box recently . We have a few tvs in the household three people and a limit on our data usage, plus I just got a smart tv and it looks like it can do a lot of stuff, so for now I have passed on a box but intend on getting one in a couple years.


Interesting. I did the update as soon as it was available. I honestly haven't noticed one change whatsoever. I have no idea what they updated other than the version number.

As for android boxes, they're incredible. Ours probably paid for itself in roughly two months. We haven't seen advertising since. We watch what we want to watch, when we want to. We've got data limits as well, but we've never had an issue. My wife has the thing running pretty much all the time for background noise or something else I don't understand. I'm sure I can check how much we're using but haven't bothered.


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Interesting. I did the update as soon as it was available. I honestly haven't noticed one change whatsoever. I have no idea what they updated other than the version number.


That's the insidious part of Microsoft, though. Most people have no idea what they're doing when they update or what they're agreeing to. If you clicked "standard install" then it's likely everyone on your Facebook friends list has access to your wifi. If you have ever given your wifi password to anyone, chances are anyone _they're_ friends with has access to your wifi.

And that's just one background feature that people may or may not be aware of when they upgrade. There's stuff like this with every update. MS slowly but surely infringes on your information, your privacy, your rights. Every update it gets that much worse.

I'm a practical guy, I don't expect everyone to jump off the Microsoft train. It's convenient. But it's a nasty thing to watch.


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## Wildbill7145

DrakeB said:


> If you clicked "standard install" then it's likely everyone on your Facebook friends list has access to your wifi. If you have ever given your wifi password to anyone, chances are anyone _they're_ friends with has access to your wifi.


Not terribly concerned about this, mostly because I'm somewhat ignorant of the ramifications. My interweb/tech kung fu isn't what it used to be. That being said, if my Facebook friends have access to mine I likely have access to theirs if they did the standard install? How does one go about testing this?

I seem to remember this being mentioned by someone at the time the installation became available. Wasn't/isn't there a workaround to this issue? I can't remember if I did anything about it at the time.


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not terribly concerned about this, mostly because I'm somewhat ignorant of the ramifications. My interweb/tech kung fu isn't what it used to be. That being said, if my Facebook friends have access to mine I likely have access to theirs if they did the standard install? How does one go about testing this?
> 
> I seem to remember this being mentioned by someone at the time the installation became available. Wasn't/isn't there a workaround to this issue? I can't remember if I did anything about it at the time.


Most of this "feature" can be toggled off. I believe we mentioned it earlier in this thread as well. Basically all you have to do to test is go over to anyone's house (or just park your car in their block) with a laptop running Windows 10 or any Windows 10 phone or tablet and click on their internet. You should just connect automatically if the feature is enabled. Depending on the install settings this could also automatically share with your Skype and Outlook contacts as well.

From a non-tech standpoint it sounds like a super convenient way to not have to fuss with passwords and such with your friends.

From a realistic standpoint, this means (especially in a small town) someone can pretend to be a pretty girl or just send out tons of friend requests on Facebook. Build up a big friends list. Then drive around town until they find a network they can connect to. Then, they can commit any kind of cyber crime they want and it will direct police/FBI directly to _your_ home address when it's tracked. There's a bit more to it than that- there's device ID's and such that can be checked, but the short version is that it would be quite easy to abuse this for all kinds of bad deeds. There's also legitimate reason to worry about this 'feature' being hacked and simply giving people your wifi password. This leads to the same kinds of potential shenanigans, with the added benefit that if you use the same pass for that and banking or anything else online they'll have access to that, too.

It's just one more completely unnecessary security vulnerability that never should have made it off the drawing board.


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## Wildbill7145

Interesting (not overly so), but someone on here (I think) mentioned that Windows Defender which appears to have replaced MSE doesn't have the capability to do regular scheduled scans. I was just going to run one and it says that it did one itself at midnight last night. Maybe they changed that situation in an update?


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## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> Interesting (not overly so), but someone on here (I think) mentioned that Windows Defender which appears to have replaced MSE doesn't have the capability to do regular scheduled scans. I was just going to run one and it says that it did one itself at midnight last night. Maybe they changed that situation in an update?


Windows Defender essentially does do scans, they're just all wrapped up into a maintenance cycle and very user unfriendly. I'd recommend something like Malware Bytes Antimalware for functional, non-bloated security. You can run scans in the free version; if you get the paid version (it's almost always worth while to get paid security for your computer) it will also do active scanning. I wouldn't recommend McAfee, which is pushed on people a lot- it is essentially Malware itself these days. It installs a bunch of extra garbage on your computer and attempts to modify your browsers.


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## jason123

The WiFi seems completely ludicrous. That means my neighbours can down load off of my WiFi and I'll be billed for it.


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## DrakeB

jason123 said:


> The WiFi seems completely ludicrous. That means my neighbours can down load off of my WiFi and I'll be billed for it.


Assuming you have them on Facebook or Outlook/Skype and that feature is turned on, yup. And that's just the most benevolent possible use of it, too.


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## jason123

Well here is a link I found about disabling the WiFi sharing apparently you have to do more than turn it off, you also have to add the word _optout to your ssid. 

http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-kill-wi-fi-password-sharing-in-windows-10/


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## jason123

Had to upgrade my lap top for this huge job I landed. I got a 16 g memory, quad core with true hd 17.3".Im pretty happy like a little school girl right now. 
Of course it came with windows 10, so far so good. Actually find it very easy to use. Doesn't feel like a whole new interface just an updated version of windows I'm happy.


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## jason123

Actually a few hrs after I left the last message my internet just started dropping off. Restart, drop off instantly again and I was plugged in. Maybe I'll wait on my recommendation just yet.


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## jason123

Ok I might have to retract this statement, after I got over my assumption and tantrum I followed this step , 




It has worked so far for me.

The disabling automatic updates requires a few more steps but can be done. Im still happy with this. I have disabled the automatic updates and can choose when I want to install them. 

If no one continues this thread I will let it rest in peace from here on. Thank you.


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## LakewoodPaintingPro

I've been delaying the upgrade to 10 for about a month now, don't really want to do it but the notifications are driving me crazy. Guess I will eventually give in, lol.


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## chrisn

LakewoodPaintingPro said:


> I've been delaying the upgrade to 10 for about a month now, don't really want to do it but the notifications are driving me crazy. Guess I will eventually give in, lol.


Not me, I am sticking with what works and what I know, so there


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## bocaratonpainters

I think you can go back to your old version if you do not like windows 10. I kept my windows 8, will probably regret it later


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## bocaratonpainters

_"If you do upgrade within the first year, you get Windows 10 for free, permanently. You don’t have to pay anything. Even after it’s been a year, your Windows 10 installation will continue working and receiving updates as normal. You won’t have to pay for some sort of Windows 10 subscription or fee to continue using it, and you’ll even get any new features Microsft adds." 
_
Found this after a quick google search


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## bocaratonpainters

You cannot update for free anymore though


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