# Satin on trim



## Lambrecht

I have had many customers this year request satin to be used on the trim instead of semi- gloss or high gloss. I like the look of the satin finish especially against earth tones. Just wondering if others have had the same customer request more frequently this year.


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## DeanV

It has been that way here for probably decades. Glad to see the rest of the country catching on.


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## ltd

*yes sir re jim bob*

i usually have to educate clients on sheen levels . satin does look good but imho id rather go with semigloss on trim . on dry wall i always try to steer them to flat you know to hide imperfections but it seems they always want satin i swear i think its a name thing flat satin flat satin i guess satin does sound better


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## Workaholic

I like semi on trim but if. the trim is beat up I think satin is a good option.


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## johnpaint

That's why I see it in all the apt's from the 80's where the painters use to live before they could not get loans.


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## DeanV

Around here, new construction is satin trim. If you find semi-gloss, it is on lower end NC. There are exceptions but not very many I have seen.


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## daArch

Around these parts, I see a lot of satin on trim. Perhaps that's because I work in a lot of older homes and the satin hides the imperfections old trims naturally have.

My preference has always been SG. And I used to add a little raw linseed to retard the drying (better leveling) which would add a bit of gloss. SG, I explain to the HO is a lot easier to wash. 

One of my faves was (oil) Larcoloid by California. It was (is?) a urethane based paint and was bullet proof. Takes a bit more prep, but the final results makes one's work "SHINE"


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## Paradigmzz

Sheen is not king. I see semigloss in midranged homes and high end homes go to satin around here. Same is true with lacquer. the glossier the finish coats the lower the price range- it seems like. No fantastic plastic on my job sites. I use a lot of "dull rub" in my clear coats. (comparable to satin).


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## Lambrecht

I am finding the same here, higher ends are wanting the satin and mid to low ends want the shiny stuff. Maybe the higher ends don't want the trim work distracting the eyes from all high end furniture and fixtures.


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## Paradigmzz

Lambrecht said:


> I am finding the same here, higher ends are wanting the satin and mid to low ends want the shiny stuff. Maybe the higher ends don't want the trim work distracting the eyes from all high end furniture and fixtures.



I think it is a designer thing. I have yet to meet a quality designer that is in to "shiny" surfaces. Shiny doesnt always mean pretty. I think you may be right in your logic. 


BTW, Flat is builder grade for walls jim bob.... 

been using a bit of low sheen lately though


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## Paradigmzz

Here is another question....

Has anyone noticed that sheen means very different things to different paint companies or even within their own paint lines? ProClassic SemiGloss is comparable to Impervo Satin in terms of sheen level. I wish there was a uniform standard.... Oh wait there is, (ASTM STANDARDS) too bad manufacturers don't follow it.


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## Different Strokes

Hey everyone! Hows all my favorite jive turkeys doin? Proclassics satin equates to a velvet flat. I bought a gallon for trim and it was laughable the lack of shine this "satin" paint has. I usually go with Plastikote semi for trim, doors etc... the HO wanted a step down from semi in this case and so i went satin Proclassics. sherwin williams was great though, they understood i was misled and gave me a credit toward paint that labels their sheens correctly....NOT lol. f'ers Oh well. back to Duron from now on. atleast they have good service and friendly workers with good advice. Its just to bad all the money i spend in duron goes to those mofos at SW anyway.


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## TJ Paint

Paradigmzz said:


> Here is another question....
> 
> Has anyone noticed that sheen means very different things to different paint companies or even within their own paint lines? ProClassic SemiGloss is comparable to Impervo Satin in terms of sheen level. I wish there was a uniform standard.... Oh wait there is, (ASTM STANDARDS) too bad manufacturers don't follow it.


we should have the govt regulate sheen levels, should only add $2-? /gallon. Its for the good of the country right?:thumbsup:


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## ewingpainting.net

Well, this thread just took a twisted turn. 

Sheen levels are for different surfaces and 
The more the traffic, the higher the sheen. The more the money the lower the sheen. I love working with the lowersheens they really help you as far as finish product. The touch up is easier to. Most here go with semi, but as stated the higher end go with the lower sheens. I try to school my clients so they can make the right decision for their surface. The lower the sheen the softer the coatings going to be. So if they got kids, or they can't afford to paint at least every 5 years I would recommend the higher sheen. JMO


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## RCP

ewingpainting.net said:


> Well, this thread just took a twisted turn. <snip>


Yes it did, thanks for getting it back on track, the OT posts were moved here.


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## Lambrecht

Thank you Mods for keeping another thread on track.


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## DeanV

It seems to me that higher end trim paints come in satin only, both impervos, proclassic, cabinetcoat, or satin and gloss with no semigloss option (Graham, bm advance)


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## oldskool

mpi has a standardized sheen range.

I believe flat 0-10%
velvet 10-20
eggshell 20-30
low sheen 30-40
semi gloss 40+
Edit: I was close.
http://www.paintinfo.com/mpi/approved/sheen.htm
http://www.paintpro.net/Articles/PP505/PP505_Standards.cfm
http://www.betterpainters.com/paint-finishes.asp?n=betterpainters

A good painter should be able to make anything look good!
Its all about the look the customer wants. Non semigloss on the trim is fine, how many people really get down on their hands and knees to wash the trim? How often you you think people wash their trim and doors? Once or twice a year, I bet.


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## CK_68847

oldskool said:


> mpi has a standardized sheen range.
> 
> I believe flat 0-10%
> velvet 10-20
> eggshell 20-30
> low sheen 30-40
> semi gloss 40+
> Edit: I was close.
> http://www.paintinfo.com/mpi/approved/sheen.htm
> http://www.paintpro.net/Articles/PP505/PP505_Standards.cfm
> http://www.betterpainters.com/paint-finishes.asp?n=betterpainters
> 
> A good painter should be able to make anything look good!
> Its all about the look the customer wants. Non semigloss on the trim is fine, how many people really get down on their hands and knees to wash the trim? How often you you think people wash their trim and doors? Once or twice a year, I bet.


You are definately wrong about the good painter should be able to make anything look good. A poor drywaller can make a great painter's work look like crap. To me it just seems like drywall work has went really downhill. If the drywall is poor, and even if you do prime and put an average sheen on you are going to have problems.


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## MAK-Deco

DeanV said:


> It has been that way here for probably decades. Glad to see the rest of the country catching on.


yep thats how its been here for a while as well.


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## aaron61

It has always bothered me that so many expect an imperfect surface like drywall to be as slick,smooth & level as a polished slab of marble.

It's drywall for God's sake!!! You can only work with what you've got to start with.You can't hide humped or sunk seems with paint and you can only blame so much on the finisher.Drywall in itself is imperfect.
I have finished drywall for years.I ran the finishing crew & the painting crew for a large painting Company in Ohio for several years.
So if you've never been there don't bitch. Ask Capt'n shhetrock.He'll tell ya!


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## Paint and Hammer

hmmm, this thread has been 'censored'.

Is that because there is a link on Jack's site?


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## Workaholic

Paint and Hammer said:


> hmmm, this thread has been 'censored'.
> 
> Is that because there is a link on Jack's site?


Not censored, a thread split took place for the side topic. Here is the link for the other thread if that was what you were looking for. 
http://www.painttalk.com/f14/satin-part-duex-11431/


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## Paradigmzz

The other link is a completely derailed train wreck... In the words of Wise:

"Mah Bad."


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## Paint and Hammer

Workaholic said:


> Not censored, a thread split took place for the side topic. Here is the link for the other thread if that was what you were looking for.
> http://www.painttalk.com/f14/satin-part-duex-11431/



Ah...right, that's what happened....no I wasn't looking for that other thread...best forget it.

I came back to this only because I was on Jack's site and linked it here and thought something was missing.


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## Workaholic

Paradigmzz said:


> The other link is a completely derailed train wreck... In the words of Wise:
> 
> "Mah Bad."


I know I feel guilty for linking it. btw you cracked me up with that comment at CT.



Paint and Hammer said:


> Ah...right, that's what happened....no I wasn't looking for that other thread...best forget it.
> 
> I came back to this only because I was on Jack's site and linked it here and thought something was missing.


I was wondering why anyone would miss those posts, thought maybe it was simply the thought of censorship.


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## Capt-sheetrock

aaron61 said:


> It has always bothered me that so many expect an imperfect surface like drywall to be as slick,smooth & level as a polished slab of marble.
> 
> It's drywall for God's sake!!! You can only work with what you've got to start with.You can't hide humped or sunk seems with paint and you can only blame so much on the finisher.Drywall in itself is imperfect.
> I have finished drywall for years.I ran the finishing crew & the painting crew for a large painting Company in Ohio for several years.
> So if you've never been there don't bitch. Ask Capt'n shhetrock.He'll tell ya!


 I find it strange that painters want eggshell(shiny) on drywall, and satin(dull) on trim. Then scream at the drywaller cause drywall isn't as smooth as wood. 

Kinda strains credulity, don't it????


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## Paint and Hammer

Capt-sheetrock said:


> I find it strange that painters want eggshell(shiny) on drywall, and satin(dull) on trim. Then scream at the drywaller cause drywall isn't as smooth as wood.
> 
> Kinda strains credulity, don't it????


Isn't it always 'your' fault? 

BTW - I like watching what's going on in your home through your avatar. :thumbsup:


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## prophat

Although up close (to me) Satin looks professional and SG looks cheap, I'm personally thinking of doing my own condo in SG for the floor trim and everything else (Cabinets, Doors, Windows, etc) in Satin. 

With pets and dust, I've found it to be too much of a pain-in-the-ars to scrub up the dust and pet hair that gets stuck to the Satin floor trim. Not sure why exactly it sticks more to Satin, but that has been my experience with it.


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## mudbone

Lambrecht said:


> I have had many customers this year request satin to be used on the trim instead of semi- gloss or high gloss. I like the look of the satin finish especially against earth tones. Just wondering if others have had the same customer request more frequently this year.


 :yes:


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## TJ Paint

Always do a quality job by putting flat on walls...

Never have understood that, never will (unless you go with aura, regal, or the new SW primo stuff.)


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## Xmark

DeanV said:


> Around here, new construction is satin trim. If you find semi-gloss, it is on lower end NC. There are exceptions but not very many I have seen.


some of you pc's in the US have it easy with satin on trim and flat on walls. makes the job that much easier.around here in canada the customers always go with durabilty over appearance; which is semi on trim and egg on walls.


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## DeanV

It seems most of the higher end trim enamels are not offered in semi gloss. Advance, wb impervo, cabinet coat, graham ceramic, oil satin impervo. Satin and gloss available (in some of these brands), not semigloss.


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## Xmark

DeanV said:


> It seems most of the higher end trim enamels are not offered in semi gloss. Advance, wb impervo, cabinet coat, graham ceramic, oil satin impervo. Satin and gloss available (in some of these brands), not semigloss.



I've used Advance a couple of times in a semi-gloss.it's finish #793

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-ca/...interior-alkyd-paint#piSheen=793&advs=0&tab=2


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## DeanV

I stand corrected. Just not stocked here I guess.


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## BrushJockey

Dusty thread- but still good! I'm in the land of satin myself. 
But the sheens on every line of paint are different, even within one company. One's satin is anothers semi..


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## Xmark

BrushJockey said:


> Dusty thread- but still good! I'm in the land of satin myself.
> But the sheens on every line of paint are different, even within one company. One's satin is anothers semi..


very true. i've used some eggshell's that look pretty close to a semi-gloss.


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## Gough

There doesn't seem to be much agreement among paint companies about this. That's led to some spirited discussions with some designers/architects. They'd call out "Semi-gloss" for trim and create a huge fuss when we propose a product that the manufacturer calls eggshell, satin, or low-luster. It doesn't help that a number of mfgs don't even list the reflectivity of their products in the TDSs. The MPI has a guide that might be helpful:

http://www.paintinfo.com/mpi/approved/sheen.shtml


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## TJ Paint

I'm sick of the hacks on here that put flat on walls.

My dog could put flat on walls blindfolded. 

Matte is ok though. 

Poll?


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## Damon T

TJ Paint said:


> I'm sick of the hacks on here that put flat on walls.
> 
> My dog could put flat on walls blindfolded.
> 
> Matte is ok though.
> 
> Poll?


Flat is where it's at!


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## Dave Mac

we just did a nice insterior yesterday and used some pro classic oil satin finish looked great, but they just dont make oil paint like they used to


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## 6126

Dave Mac said:


> we just did a nice insterior yesterday and used some pro classic oil satin finish looked great, but they just dont make oil paint like they used to


One coat or two? We want photos  I still use the oil version of PC on ocaision, but it seems like I have to do two coats even on existing enamel repaint work to get the look I used to get in one coat. I will say this too, maybe its just me because I've shot so much oil in my career but I can still get the oil version to come out with a much btter looking final product than the acrylic. :yes:


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## Dave Mac

Woodland said:


> One coat or two? We want photos  I still use the oil version of PC on ocaision, but it seems like I have to do two coats even on existing enamel repaint work to get the look I used to get in one coat. I will say this too, maybe its just me because I've shot so much oil in my career but I can still get the oil version to come out with a much btter looking final product than the acrylic. :yes:


cant post pictures on this sight always get a error message after waiting 5 minutes for it to down load, I dint take any of this job, it was only one coat came out real nice, kind of fun because it was a job whear their was another paint crew in the house doing the kitchen first, remodel new cabinets and such, and the contractor wanted to use his painter, then the client who I have worked for many years used us for the rest of the job wich was a stairweel from the kitchen to the bonus room plus a office and a laundry room, well the painters before us used latex on the trim you could see a clear difference nobody said anything you could scratch their trim paint off with a finger nail, I kept my mouth shut not sure if that was the best thng to do or not.


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## 6126

Dave Mac said:


> cant post pictures on this sight always get a error message after waiting 5 minutes for it to down load, I dint take any of this job, it was only one coat came out real nice, kind of fun because it was a job whear their was another paint crew in the house doing the kitchen first, remodel new cabinets and such, and the contractor wanted to use his painter, then the client who I have worked for many years used us for the rest of the job wich was a stairweel from the kitchen to the bonus room plus a office and a laundry room, well the painters before us used latex on the trim you could see a clear difference nobody said anything you could scratch their trim paint off with a finger nail, I kept my mouth shut not sure if that was the best thng to do or not.


Depends on what you mean by "keeping your mouth shut". I will point out things to a customer that need attention, but at the same time I make a point not to bad mouth previous painters or competitors. Just not my style :no: Or do you mean you just painted over it? :whistling2:


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## Dave Mac

no I mean another painting company painted latex over oil on the trim and it will scratch off, we did not do any painting in this part of the house, so I didn, say anything about.

If I was painting in that part of the house I would of said something for fear of future failure.


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## TJ Paint

Here is the sister thread to this one.


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## propainterJ

Once in a Blue Moon somebody asks for Satin or lower around here.

Otherwise it's SG or Gloss

In 26 years of painting I can remember only a handfull of doors and trim being less then sg
.

But I've been putting Satin Finsh on Cabinets for the last 10 years,mostly.


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## prophat

*white*



prophat said:


> Although up close (to me) Satin looks professional and SG looks cheap, I'm personally thinking of doing my own condo in SG for the floor trim and everything else (Cabinets, Doors, Windows, etc) in Satin.
> 
> With pets and dust, I've found it to be too much of a pain-in-the-ars to scrub up the dust and pet hair that gets stuck to the Satin floor trim. Not sure why exactly it sticks more to Satin, but that has been my experience with it.


Before I head over to pick up the paint, I wanted to mention that I forgot to mention
...that the color I'm dealing with is WHITE. 

Not sure if that's why this has been such a PITA for me or not. 

I've got all white trim, cabinets and doors. 

The first test run was with ACE cabinet, trim and door (high hiding white) SG on my Fireplace trim/mantle. The paint as paint set in perfectly. The sheen however is what had me cringe.

Since I have all flat-surfaced doors in my condo, I imagined this/that SG sheen would look totally Fugly on them as well- which is really where Satin came to mind. 

Still on the fence with this. Wish I could get smaller samples of paint- the experimentation crap is getting expensive. 

Maybe I'll just do flat on the doors and put a few coats of polyurethane on...lol.
:wallbash:


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## Gough

propainterJ said:


> Once in a Blue Moon somebody asks for Satin or lower around here.
> 
> Otherwise it's SG or Gloss
> 
> In 26 years of painting I can remember only a handfull of doors and trim being less then sg
> .
> 
> But I've been putting Satin Finsh on Cabinets for the last 10 years,mostly.


Maybe it's a regional thing. For thirty+ years here, it's been PPG 6-90 or Satin Impervo, both considered "low-luster". I can remember a total of two exceptions, one about 20 years ago and one pending.


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## TJ Paint

How many guys here think some of the new lines sheen are lower than many older lines?

I noticed this with Promar 200 zero and natura semigloss. They almost looked like a satin to me.

I know it is sorta blasphemous to use this type of paint on trim. 

I have confessed my transgressions yet have not repented 100%.


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## Jtpaintalot

I use satin often! Especially when doing trim by hand. And usually use aura when doing it by hand. Turns out awsome!


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## DanielMDollaPainting

TJ Paint said:


> Always do a quality job by putting flat on walls...
> 
> Never have understood that, never will (unless you go with aura, regal, or the new SW primo stuff.)


 Most customers want something more washable. I work for a GC who does residential remodeling and always specs flat. I think designers like it too. Anything else is more money. They used satin one time upon request and had problems with the customer. This was before I painted for them. They tell the client "instead of washing it, you just touch up or repaint certain areas every 5 yrs." I guess that makes them more money. Flat does look better when it is first done imo. I have done enough big rooms and foyers with satin and get the roller mark glare in the light sometimes. 
Satin on trim almost looks flat sometimes. Maybe I'm so used to looking at semi gloss around here. Satin is great because it covers better imo.


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## Gough

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Most customers want something more washable. I work for a GC who does residential remodeling and always specs flat. I think designers like it too. Anything else is more money. They used satin one time upon request and had problems with the customer. This was before I painted for them. They tell the client "instead of washing it, you just touch up or repaint certain areas every 5 yrs." I guess that makes them more money. Flat does look better when it is first done imo. I have done enough big rooms and foyers with satin and get the roller mark glare in the light sometimes.
> Satin on trim almost looks flat sometimes. Maybe I'm so used to looking at semi gloss around here. Satin is great because it covers better imo.


Clearly, this is one of those things that varies by region. I can't remember when we last painted flat on walls or even ceilings, for that matter. I know it's been at least 15 years. The designers that we work with prefer velvet or satin on those surfaces. They fell that it adds some "life" to the surfaces, and I agree with them.

The GCs and GWB contractors like flat because it doesn't require the level of finish on the walls that sheened paints do. Quite frankly, it also doesn't require as much skill with a roller either. For much the same reason, the GC's mostly prefer satin poly, as it helps conceal a multitude of sins.


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## mudbone

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Most customers want something more washable. I work for a GC who does residential remodeling and always specs flat. I think designers like it too. Anything else is more money. They used satin one time upon request and had problems with the customer. This was before I painted for them. They tell the client "instead of washing it, you just touch up or repaint certain areas every 5 yrs." I guess that makes them more money. Flat does look better when it is first done imo. I have done enough big rooms and foyers with satin and get the roller mark glare in the light sometimes.
> Satin on trim almost looks flat sometimes. Maybe I'm so used to looking at semi gloss around here. Satin is great because it covers better imo.


 Your so right about this.Just finished up a sun room and did the walls in a flat matte and woodwork in pro classic satin and sheen level looked the same.


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## playedout6

We always use Manor Hall Pearl on NC . I could count the jobs where the trim was a Semi on my fingers for the last 10 years . Pearl covers better and hides more nasty finish jobs by poorer finish applicators . Now after saying that...I put some semi on my own living room trim last week but only because I had a can left over from a job .


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