# The Dangers of Ladder Use on Trex Decking



## I Hate Painting

Dear Fellow Contractor,

I have read with great interest - on this and other Painting Contractor Forums - various posts regarding ladder slip-outs - and in particular - ladder slip-outs on Trex or other composite type decking. I note that the posts vary in comments such as "It was your own fault" all the way to "There needs to be warnings as to how slippery Trex is".

I am certain this post will generate comments - and I welcome them. Those who read this may - or may not - agree with what I have to say - however I assure you I am well qualified to put forth the following opinions about Trex Decking.

To begin we must turn our attention to the standards. There are numerous manufacturing standards found here and abroad. When we think of products manufactured in the U.S. we find that the standard applicable is called ANSI. ANSI is the acronym for the American National Standards Institute. ANSI does not create standards as their main function is accreditation for Standard Developers. 

Next we turn to the ladder. ANSI accredits what is known as the ASC A14 Committee. This is the committee which developed the ladder standards which are applicable for the ladders you and your employees use in your daily work.

This committee is comprised of various interested parties - some of which are ladder manufacturers. The committee also has government agencies on the committee - two of which are OSHA and the CPSC. In actuality the two government agencies are really only observers and do not have voting rights.

The Secretariat to the ASC A14 Committee is the American Ladder Institute the acronym for which is the ALI.

When we look for instance - on the subject of non-self-supporting ladders (extension type) - we find that there is a test applicable to the ability for the ladder to not slip-out when in proper use. This test is called the "Foot Slip Test".

The procedures for doing the test calls for a 16 foot ladder. The ladder is then extended to its maximum height and placed against a wall at 75 degrees. That angle by the way is the 1/4 the length. There is a pictograph located on the right hand rail of the ladder showing a man with his arms outstretched. The message is that with your feet touching the ladder feet - and the palms of your hands reaching the rung nearest in front of you - then you have the correct angle of inclination for safe use.

If you would like at some point you can comment on that particular design and tell me if you think I did a good job in designing that instruction.

Anyway - the "Foot Slip Test" - after the angel is set up - calls for a load of 200 pounds to be suspended from the third rung from the top of the ladder. The rational is that the third rung from the top is the highest rung you should climb on the ladder.

Once the ladder angle is set - and the load is applied - we test to see how much force it takes to make the ladder slip out at the bottom.

The standard calls for the ladder to be setting on A/C plywood. The standard calls for a pulling force to be applied 1 inch above the lower supporting surface. The standard calls for the ladder to resist - at a minimum - a force of 50 pounds. The standard states that if the ladder moves 1/4 of an inch or greater when 50 pounds of less is applied - then it is said that the ladder fails the test.

Now before I go on - all painters realize that you do not always set a ladder on plywood. We set ladders on all kinds of material such as glazed tile and hardwood floors.

But this thread is about Trex Decking so I will be specific.

During an investigation into a ladder slip-out on Trex Decking I conducted the above identified test. Here are the results:

First Pull: Ladder slipped out with 7 pounds of force

Second Pull: Ladder slipped out with 4 pounds of force

Third Pull: Ladder slipped out with 1 1/2 pounds of force

Expert Opinion: Trex Decking is incapable of supporting a straight or extension ladder when set up as per instruction label on ladder.

Summary: Trex Decking is a plastic material / Ladder anti-slip-pads are a plastic material. The two together can lead to disaster.

Thanks for reading this as I hope it will prevent someone falling.

Herb


To make this crystal clear to every painter out there - we have the ladder


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Can I get this dumb down??


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## Oden

That is a novel.


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## Gough

I Hate Painting said:


> Dear Fellow Contractor,
> 
> <<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>



Not to be rude, but that was one of the least helpful posts I've seen on PT.

Short Version: Trex and other composite decks are slippery.

A more helpful post would point out what to do about it.


We typically strap 2x4 cleats to the decks and set the ladder feet against them.


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## daArch

Ladders are unsafe on decking (composite or organic). 

PERIOD.


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## daArch

Gough said:


> Not to be rude, but that was one of the least helpful posts I've seen on PT.
> 
> Short Version: Trex and other composite decks are slippery.
> 
> A more helpful post would point out what to do about it.
> 
> 
> We typically strap 2x4 cleats to the decks and set the ladder feet against them.


One of the MOST helpful posts I've seen here was the one (and I wish I could credit the person) who showed how to place cleats WITHOUT nailing them through the decking, but to have the nails in the gaps between the boards :thumbsup:


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## Gough

daArch said:


> One of the MOST helpful posts I've seen here was the one (and I wish I could credit the person) who showed how to place cleats WITHOUT nailing them through the decking, but to have the nails in the gaps between the boards :thumbsup:


We've used Wonderbars dropped into the gaps, but switched to NRS straps. 

http://www.nrs.com/product/1440/nrs-1-hd-tie-down-straps


We've been using the straps for lots of jobs: securing equipment on the trucks; tying up bushes; fastening picks to scaffold frames; holding our pants up; hanging counterweights on scaffold towers; etc.


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## TJ Paint

Painting can be dangerous.


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## Tonyg

Flat pry-bars work great. Either drop one behind each leg or a 2x4 in front of them first.


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## CApainter

I hate painting= said:


> -"Summary: Trex Decking is a plastic material / Ladder anti-slip-pads are a plastic material. The two together can lead to disaster."
> -"To make this crystal clear to every painter out there - we have the ladder"


That was a lot of information to sell a ladder. One flaw in the poster's conclusion, IMO, that standard protective foot pads are plastic, is not entirely true. I believe they are rubber. And if they are not, you can get adjustable foot pads with rubber soles.


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## CApainter

I also use nylon rope whenever possible. I thought the OP was informing us of a class action suit.


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## I Hate Painting

When it comes to being a Painting Contractor it appears I look at things through a different set of eyes as opposed to those who responded to my post on Trex Decking I will list a few examples which would differentiate myself from those who responded on the subject.

Which of these answers would you consider to be more helpful to a potential client or fellow contractor?

Question: You are going to paint a clients front door and they ask you how long will it take the paint to dry?

Answer #1 Your answer is it is dependent upon the mill thickness, the humidity, and the temp.

Answer #2 I don't know. It takes awhile, I would give it a couple of hours.


Question: What variables go into developing the quote you gave me for painting my house?

Answer #1 Inspection of the substrate, measurements of the sq. ft. being covered, number of coats to be applied, cost of materials, estimate of labor involved.

Answer #2 I just walked around the project and come up with a figure. I have done this before so is do a guess-ta-mate.

Question: I heard that Trex Decking is slippery and dangerous for ladder use.

Answer #1 Yes the friction value is below what recognized standards consider safe. As a matter of information regarding that question - while the standard for safe use calls for the ladder to resist 50 pounds of resistance - test results indicate a ladder on Trex Decking provided less than 10% of the standard requirement. 

Answer #2 Even an idiot knows decks are slippery regardless of being Trex or other wise. Use some sort of board attached to the deck to stop the ladder from slipping.

Discussion:

It would appear to me that persons other than Painting Contractors may read what is posted on www.PaintTalk.com A part of those who are reading this may appreciate a scientific and measurable answer as to the friction value a ladder may - or may not have - on Trex Decking. 

I was under the impression that a Qualified Painting Contractor would be the first line of information to the consumer regarding all things which apply to Painting Safety. Personally I consider it an obligation to share what knowledge I have in Painting Safety with those who are consumers as well as those who may have just started a Painting Contractor business.

In closing there was at one time a great deal of respect between Painting Contractors. Their opinions were valued and often sought after by those who were up-and-coming. I guess my 52 years of actual painting is no longer of value to the new guys.


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## aaron61

Experts are so wordy


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## CApainter

I Hate Painting said:


> I was under the impression that a Qualified Painting Contractor would be the first line of information to the consumer regarding all things which apply to Painting Safety. No offense, but not all painting contractors are qualified to provide information on construction safety, as it relates to painting. However, as a licensed contractor, it should be their obligation to provide insurance in the event their ladder slips.
> 
> Personally I consider it an obligation to share what knowledge I have in Painting Safety with those who are consumers as well as those who may have just started a Painting Contractor business. There is no harm in pointing out safety concerns. However, and as summarized in all of the safety training classes I've attended, safety is a personal responsibility first and foremost, regardless if equipment or PPE is provided by an employer or not.
> 
> In closing there was at one time a great deal of respect between Painting Contractors. Their opinions were valued and often sought after by those who were up-and-coming. I guess my 52 years of actual painting is no longer of value to the new guys. In my thirty years of experience in the trade, I have witnessed only competition and contempt among painters and contractors alike. Only since the advent of internet communication, has there been a real effort to exchange information among painters. IMO


IHP,

I do appreciate your concern for painters and contractor safety, and would like to see the solution to the ladder slippage problem you alluded to in your opening post.

Thanks.


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## CApainter

aaron61 said:


> Experts are so wordy


This has all the workings of an AJ attack. But I really don't care. Any opportunity to have a brisk discussion is welcomed.


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## mudbone

Gough said:


> We've used Wonderbars dropped into the gaps, but switched to NRS straps.
> 
> http://www.nrs.com/product/1440/nrs-1-hd-tie-down-straps
> 
> 
> We've been using the straps for lots of jobs: securing equipment on the trucks; tying up bushes; fastening picks to scaffold frames; holding our pants up; hanging counterweights on scaffold towers; etc.


Man your really strapped for time!


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## I Hate Painting

I don't believe Painting Contractors realize the* importance and influence* that the Painting Industry has over the design and manufacturer of such things as ladders, (as a means of climbing to upper level work) and products manufactured which fall under the broad term "Walking and Supporting" surfaces. 

Compared to the Plumbing Industry, the Roofing Industry, the Siding Industry, the Window Replacement Industry, the Home Inspection Industry, and many others, *special recognition* was shown to the Painting Industry by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Administration (NIOSH), and the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). All three of these agencies *recognized and appreciated* the input and data the Painting Industry supplied in Safety Research conducted by these agencies. 

There is a reason for Painting Contractors importance regarding Safety Research into ladder use. In 1995 I was successful in pointing out to all three agencies that Painting Contractors *are the only industry* which use ladders - not only to climb to upper work areas - but also use ladders as a work station.

I pointed out that by way of example - the Roofing Industry will set up a ladder in one place - tie it off - and use that single ladder for all workers to climb up and climb down from the roof. I pointed out that in the Siding Industry you will find two ladders set up with ladder jacks and a pick. I pointed out that in the Home Inspection Industry the user will generally have one ladder which he uses to reach the roof.

I also pointed out that Painters have *greater knowledge based on actual use time of ladders *as opposed to all the other mentioned industries. This data was documented with the simple fact a Painter will move and re-set a ladder numerous times while painting something as simple as a typical two-story home. I compared this to the Roofer who uses one set-up to reach the roof. I compared this to the Home Inspector who also will set up and use the ladder once to climb to the roof.

Another importance the Painting Industry holds over all other Industries is the sheer number of ladders they buy and use. I pointed out that while the Roofer and the Home Inspector can get by with one ladder - I documented that the typical Painting Contractor will buy and own a minimum of 10 to 20 ladders. I actually took photographs of various Industry trucks while traveling about our city. I photographed Painting Contractors who had 10 or more ladders on their truck and compared this to the others who had 1 or 2 ladders on their truck.

But the most important item I pointed out regarding the Painting Industry was the vast array of materials which the Painter will eventually set their ladder on. This I identified as *the supporting surface*. I pointed out that in the Roofing Industry, the Siding Industry, the Home Inspection Industry, etc. - the ladder is generally placed on grass, earth, cement, and black top. I then documented that the Painting Industry is faced with the greatest variations of supporting surfaces. We are faced with setting a ladder on hardwood floors, ceramic tile, epoxy finished floors, decking materials and others.

This government research and their findings are followed closely by manufacturers of various products. There are several reasons why "Manufacturers" are interested in government research into the safety of products. In this case we can be proud that the *Painting Industry* had great influence in the way ladders are manufactured.

In closing - some may consider this post "A Novel" and some may consider this post "The Most Uninformative Post Ever" - but the fact is - the Painting Industry has been officially recognized as the leading source of information into ladder safety. That is a significant honor and one which should be shared with every one of us.

What can you do in the future? Use your own judgment to evaluate the tools and products you come in contact with while doing your work. Voice you opinions to the three government agencies I mention. *They are there to work for you.*

I Hate Painting


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## CApainter

I Hate Painting said:


> What can you do in the future?
> 
> Use your own judgment to evaluate the tools and products you come in contact with while doing your work. Voice you opinions to the three government agencies I mention. *They are there to work for you.*
> 
> 
> I Hate Painting


As much as I believe individuals are responsible for their own safety, I'm not confident that everyone has good judgment. Therefore, it is important that we all understand the proper and safe application of equipment as determined by those agencies responsible for not only regulating the standards, but who also determine fines for non compliance.

Thanks for the info and recognition to us painters!


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## Schmidt & Co.

So how is your Trex lawsuit progressing?


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## I Hate Painting

Paul, I am not at liberty to discuss this particular incident. What I can tell you is that Trex Decking has faced class action lawsuits based on failure of the product. That claim involved flaking of the finish as well as other problems. The failure of the finish alone can influence the friction value a ladder may have on Trex and result in a slipout. You can google Trex Class Action and find that information.

My concern is not only for Painting Contractors who may set a ladder up on this product - it is also for anyone who may read this information. Trex is manufactured from recycled plastic trash bags and other forms of plastic. I think most would understand that plastic would have less resistance to a ladder slipping out than having the ladder on wood. Treated yellow pine - which for years was the deck builders material of choice - has twice the slip resistance than Trex.

As I pointed out before - ladder anti-slip pads are also manufactured from plastic. I know the composition of ladder feet for every ladder manufacture - and I assure everyone - they all use plastic.

In closing there are no less than 150,000 ladder injuries per year. That is down from 500,000 which were taking place 8 to 10 years ago. I attribute the reduction in accidents to the economy. Construction and Homebuilding has gone down and that means less ladders are being sold and used. 

Be safe and thanks for the inquiry 

I Hate Painting


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Jeez and they wanted to ban our guns!! Let's ban Trex Decking and ladders instead


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## ProWallGuy

Your point is taken.


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