# Learning the hard way



## finishesbykevyn

So I've been experimenting with different finishing techniques on cabinets/furniture etc. when the client is wanting a paint/coloured finish.
My main system has been to wash/degreese with either ECO TSP, Crud cutter deglosser, light sanding, Stix Primer (Awsome stuff), then Aura Semi-gloss or Satin top coat. I've been brushing and rolling everything onsite, but have now set up a shop and want to start spray finishing doors in shop.

Now. The reason I'm using the the regular Aura, which has been working fine BTW. Is mostly because of the quick dry time. It is also pretty bullet proof by the time it sets up. However I thought maybe adding a couple coats of varnish on top of this would make it less susceptible to scratching and more durable in the long run. It would also be an up-sell to the customer to "Add Clear Coat".

Sooo, did my first "upsell" on a set of bookshelves. did everything as usual, spray finished with Aura Matt as a base for the Satin finish clear coat.
Now here's where I think I screwed up...
As I'm not an expert in the clearcoat department.. I used the Minwax Waterbased Polyurethane. I sprayed it on the shelves in my shop and brushed it on the units. All looked great! Like a sheet of glass. 
Next day, I noticed it had a little amber tone to it. I thought no big deal.
Day by day it has gone more and more yellow. Did I mention that this was over an off white colour..
Long story short, customer is very unhappy and I need to redo. Will probably just re-sand and coat with advance.. 
Anywhow, I'm all ears. Give it to me..


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## PACman

MINWAX! And why put a clear on a paint that is going to cure HARDER then the clear in the first place? It makes it impossible to do any simple repairs! As you are going to be finding out!


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## PACman

Ok people, and I'm not picking on the OP here because I know this is very common to put clears over acrylic paint on cabinets and such, but NO ONE THAT HAS ANY REAL KNOWLEDGE OF PAINT SYSTEMS IS GOING TO RECOMMEND THIS SYSTEM! NO ONE! I know it is quite common among the box stores and even SW to recommend this, but it is NOT a good idea AT ALL! Every time I see this being recommended on HGTV and the like I CRINGE!

The ways this can fail are almost immeasurable! And not least it requires a complete strip or sand to fix even the smallest of damage instead of a simple sand and re-coat. I have seen SO many times this has failed.

So let me say this, track down whoever it was that recommended this, whether it be SW or Home Depot or lowe's,hgtv, whoever they are...... and throat punch the sons of b*tches for me!


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## sayn3ver

There was just a thread about this in the photo area. :whistling2:

http://www.painttalk.com/f24/sw-proclassic-kitchen-cabinets-nightmare-69642/#/topics/69642?_k=qjgisg


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## finishesbykevyn

PACman said:


> Ok people, and I'm not picking on the OP here because I know this is very common to put clears over acrylic paint on cabinets and such, but NO ONE THAT HAS ANY REAL KNOWLEDGE OF PAINT SYSTEMS IS GOING TO RECOMMEND THIS SYSTEM! NO ONE! I know it is quite common among the box stores and even SW to recommend this, but it is NOT a good idea AT ALL! Every time I see this being recommended on HGTV and the like I CRINGE!
> 
> The ways this can fail are almost immeasurable! And not least it requires a complete strip or sand to fix even the smallest of damage instead of a simple sand and re-coat. I have seen SO many times this has failed.
> 
> So let me say this, track down whoever it was that recommended this, whether it be SW or Home Depot or lowe's,hgtv, whoever they are...... and throat punch the sons of b*tches for me!


Ya, so first off, No one recommended this to me. So I won't be "throat punching" anybody. Haha.
2nd of all I still think this could be a good system for longevity. I originally meant to use the Benjamin Moore "Stays Clear" which won't yellow. This is kind of new territory for me.
However I believe the cured varnish would be much harder and more durable than the advance or Aura. Plus less chance of scuffing or marking the surface with daily use.
What are the other downsides of this besides my obvious screw up and Which system would you go with for diffence levels of durability? Open to suggestions. ..


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## CApainter

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, so first off, No one recommended this to me. So I won't be "throat punching" anybody. Haha.
> 2nd of all I still think this could be a good system for longevity. I originally meant to use the Benjamin Moore "Stays Clear" which won't yellow. This is kind of new territory for me.
> However I believe the cured varnish would be much harder and more durable than the advance or Aura. Plus less chance of scuffing or marking the surface with daily use.
> What are the other downsides of this besides my obvious screw up and Which system would you go with for diffence levels of durability? Open to suggestions. ..


I have no problem applying a clear over a base coat. The auto industry does it all the time with two stage systems. I would just make sure the base coat is compatible with a clear finish. That the base coat is cured enough to prevent off gassing. And, that the clear coat is compatible with the base coat.


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## PACman

CApainter said:


> I have no problem applying a clear over a base coat. The auto industry does it all the time with two stage systems. I would just make sure the base coat is compatible with a clear finish. That the base coat is cured enough to prevent off gassing. And, that the clear coat is compatible with the base coat.


Automotive paint systems are engineered from the start for a color coat/clear coat. Architectural paints are not. Unless you use a system specifically designed for a color coat/clear coat system, you open the door for a bunch of potential problems, such as yellowing of the clear coat, yellowing of the color coat, de-lamination of the clear coat from the color coat, solvent entrapment in the color coat, solvent entrapment in the clear coat, mud cracking of the clear coat, mud cracking of the color coat, difficult to repair scratching of the clear coat, impossible to repair damage to the color coat without stripping, bubbling of the clear coat, bubbling of the color coat,....shall I continue. Ask the paint store where you buy your paint two things. Will they guarantee a clear coat/color coat system, and are they going to help you strip it when it fails. No and no. You get to do those two things for a system that THEY won't stand behind AT ALL! Not bright if you ask me.

Go to your Ben Moore dealer, ask them if they can get Cabinet Coat, use two coats of cabinet coat, and you and your customer will be happy for long time.


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## thinkpainting/nick

PACman said:


> Automotive paint systems are engineered from the start for a color coat/clear coat. Architectural paints are not. Unless you use a system specifically designed for a color coat/clear coat system, you open the door for a bunch of potential problems, such as yellowing of the clear coat, yellowing of the color coat, de-lamination of the clear coat from the color coat, solvent entrapment in the color coat, solvent entrapment in the clear coat, mud cracking of the clear coat, mud cracking of the color coat, difficult to repair scratching of the clear coat, impossible to repair damage to the color coat without stripping, bubbling of the clear coat, bubbling of the color coat,....shall I continue. Ask the paint store where you buy your paint two things. Will they guarantee a clear coat/color coat system, and are they going to help you strip it when it fails. No and no. You get to do those two things for a system that THEY won't stand behind AT ALL! Not bright if you ask me.
> 
> Go to your Ben Moore dealer, ask them if they can get Cabinet Coat, use two coats of cabinet coat, and you and your customer will be happy for long time.


Just remember CC is light colors only no mid or deep base colors. Great product way underrated in my opinion just need a deep base. Lots of cabs and built ins are deep greys last couple years in my area.


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## CApainter

PACman said:


> Automotive paint systems are engineered from the start for a color coat/clear coat. Architectural paints are not. Unless you use a system specifically designed for a color coat/clear coat system, you open the door for a bunch of potential problems, such as yellowing of the clear coat, yellowing of the color coat, de-lamination of the clear coat from the color coat, solvent entrapment in the color coat, solvent entrapment in the clear coat, mud cracking of the clear coat, mud cracking of the color coat, difficult to repair scratching of the clear coat, impossible to repair damage to the color coat without stripping, bubbling of the clear coat, bubbling of the color coat,....shall I continue. Ask the paint store where you buy your paint two things. Will they guarantee a clear coat/color coat system, and are they going to help you strip it when it fails. No and no. You get to do those two things for a system that THEY won't stand behind AT ALL! Not bright if you ask me.
> 
> Go to your Ben Moore dealer, ask them if they can get Cabinet Coat, use two coats of cabinet coat, and you and your customer will be happy for long time.


The OP did mention he used a WB polyurethane clear. I don't understand how this would cause dis coloring but it did. Probably because of the alkyd film formation of the Advance rather than that of an acrylic.

Aside from automotive systems, the only SB polyurethane clear I've gone over finishes, like PPG Pitt Tech Plus for example, was when I was encapsulating vinyl labeling with a protective clear coat. It didn't appear I had any problems.

And for the record, I don't recommend spraying clears over finishes that are spec'd as just that, finishes. But I believe there are combinations that will work if matched correctly. 

Bottom line, you don't get much more of a durable finish than you do with a two component pigmented, or un pigmented polyurethane. But unfortunately, these products are not recommended for residential use because of the Isocyanate hazards.


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## PACman

CApainter said:


> The OP did mention he used a WB polyurethane clear. I don't understand how this would cause dis coloring but it did. Probably because of the alkyd film formation of the Advance rather than that of an acrylic.
> 
> Aside from automotive systems, the only SB polyurethane clear I've gone over finishes, like PPG Pitt Tech Plus for example, was when I was encapsulating vinyl labeling with a protective clear coat. It didn't appear I had any problems.
> 
> And for the record, I don't recommend spraying clears over finishes that are spec'd as just that, finishes. But I believe there are combinations that will work if matched correctly.
> 
> Bottom line, you don't get much more of a durable finish than you do with a two component pigmented, or un pigmented polyurethane. But unfortunately, these products are not recommended for residential use because of the Isocyanate hazards.


You believe there are combinations that will work if matched correctly. And how do we find what those combinations are? We experiment! But i really don't think the OP is enjoying his experiment very much.

And out of curiosity, does anyone know what the normal new automobile paint warranty time period is? No where near as long as people typically expect their cabinet finishes to last. And have any of you gotten to repair an automotive finish? Believe me, I know first hand that it isn't easy. It's a lot of work, and the clear coat makes it much harder. Back when they were straight lacquers, repaints and touch-ups were much easier to do. And there is a big reason why. Lacquer burns into itself when it is reapplied. Polys, alkyd or w/r don't. They often will de-laminate from any paint underneath. They are meant to go on bare wood or a wax free stain, not a non-porous paint. Again, catalyzed automotive paints are a completely different thing! There are catalyzed poly systems to do cabinets out there, and they are incredible finishes. I know, I used to make them. But even then, they are extremely hard to recoat or repair and the lighter colors and clearcoats will yellow over time.


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## CApainter

PACman said:


> You believe there are combinations that will work if matched correctly. And how do we find what those combinations are? We experiment! But i really don't think the OP is enjoying his experiment very much.
> 
> And out of curiosity, does anyone know what the normal new automobile paint warranty time period is? No where near as long as people typically expect their cabinet finishes to last. And have any of you gotten to repair an automotive finish? Believe me, I know first hand that it isn't easy. It's a lot of work, and the clear coat makes it much harder. Back when they were straight lacquers, repaints and touch-ups were much easier to do. And there is a big reason why. Lacquer burns into itself when it is reapplied. Polys, alkyd or w/r don't. They often will de-laminate from any paint underneath. They are meant to go on bare wood or a wax free stain, not a non-porous paint. Again, catalyzed automotive paints are a completely different thing! There are catalyzed poly systems to do cabinets out there, and they are incredible finishes. I know, I used to make them. But even then, they are extremely hard to recoat or repair and the lighter colors and clearcoats will yellow over time.


The polyurethanes I was talking about, for cabinets, were industrial coatings with a higher solid content, like Devoe 379, or PPG Pitthane.

As far as applying clear coats over paints that are not designed for a clear, do at your own risk, as I mentioned earlier. Meanwhile, all of the pigmented polyurethanes I apply have such a nice gloss and uv retention, that I don't have to apply a clear coat.


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## finishesbykevyn

CApainter said:


> The polyurethanes I was talking about, for cabinets, were industrial coatings with a higher solid content, like Devoe 379, or PPG Pitthane.
> 
> As far as applying clear coats over paints that are not designed for a clear, do at your own risk, as I mentioned earlier. Meanwhile, all of the pigmented polyurethanes I apply have such a nice gloss and uv retention, that I don't have to apply a clear coat.



Hey CAPainter. Are the 2 polyurethane products you speak W/B or Alkyd?


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## PremierPaintingMa

finishesbykevyn said:


> So I've been experimenting with different finishing techniques on cabinets/furniture etc. when the client is wanting a paint/coloured finish.
> My main system has been to wash/degreese with either ECO TSP, Crud cutter deglosser, light sanding, Stix Primer (Awsome stuff), then Aura Semi-gloss or Satin top coat. I've been brushing and rolling everything onsite, but have now set up a shop and want to start spray finishing doors in shop.
> 
> Now. The reason I'm using the the regular Aura, which has been working fine BTW. Is mostly because of the quick dry time. It is also pretty bullet proof by the time it sets up. However I thought maybe adding a couple coats of varnish on top of this would make it less susceptible to scratching and more durable in the long run. It would also be an up-sell to the customer to "Add Clear Coat".
> 
> Sooo, did my first "upsell" on a set of bookshelves. did everything as usual, spray finished with Aura Matt as a base for the Satin finish clear coat.
> Now here's where I think I screwed up...
> As I'm not an expert in the clearcoat department.. I used the Minwax Waterbased Polyurethane. I sprayed it on the shelves in my shop and brushed it on the units. All looked great! Like a sheet of glass.
> Next day, I noticed it had a little amber tone to it. I thought no big deal.
> Day by day it has gone more and more yellow. Did I mention that this was over an off white colour..
> Long story short, customer is very unhappy and I need to redo. Will probably just re-sand and coat with advance..
> Anywhow, I'm all ears. Give it to me..


Piece of advise do not try new stuff on a customer house before you do any hard testing prior to the job.


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## CApainter

finishesbykevyn said:


> Hey CAPainter. Are the 2 polyurethane products you speak W/B or Alkyd?


Sorry for the late reply. The PPG polyurethane is a solvent borne aliphatic.


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## Dave Mac

hard lessons are often the best lessons


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## finishesbykevyn

CApainter said:


> Sorry for the late reply. The PPG polyurethane is a solvent borne aliphatic.


Ya. I definitely won't be using any alkyds or aliphatics in my customers homes.
I agree that the clear coat was a rookie move. I ended up resanding, priming with stix and coating with BM's Advance. I can see it working on a darker colour with ample drying time between coats. However, a good semi-gloss latex enamel I'm sure is quite sufficient. I've been quite happy with the Aura for the quick recoat times. 
Can't say I'm a real fan of the Advance. Flows out nice, yes, but 16 hour recoat time is a little much..I wonder about using thier epoxy enforced latex?


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