# low ballers



## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

Everybody out there that low balls jobs just to get them you have to stop doing that cause your hurt the business i just lost another job by alot and i cant figure it out how there going to get it done 
the painting company that won the job was 15,000 dollars lower than me the job is worth about $47,000 i was told that the other two bids were near mine but that 4th one beet everybody i just don't get it how these idiots r making ends meet there is no profit in it


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

ellas70 said:


> Everybody out there that low balls jobs just to get them you have to stop doing that cause your hurt the business i just lost another job by alot and i cant figure it out how there going to get it done
> the painting company that won the job was 15,000 dollars lower than me the job is worth about $47,000 i was told that the other two bids were near mine but that 4th one beet everybody i just don't get it how these idiots r making ends meet there is no profit in it



Try this for lowballing.

A company I used to work for, other quotes for a building were around 50-60 grand.

Their quote 15 grand.

They sub everything, giving about 6,500 to a sub for labor and materials.
The time of year, economy, people are WILLING to do it. Makes me hate this industry.



Easy way to make your subs lose their shirt bigtime. :whistling2:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

These guys only deal in cash most of the time. And then they can't pass a drug test to get a job at Home Depot - so to them making $15/hr without having a boss is great. You can't compete with scum bags.


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## dvp (Jun 21, 2010)

i prefer to high ball. i dont get much work anymore, but when i do i make alot of money.


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## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

this low balling thats has to stop cause its killing the business and what i dont understand is that i lost about 35 jobs last year to low ballers and 22 of them called me to come and fix the headaches of the low ballers but the places would ask me if i would finish or fix the job for the same money cause thats what is in there budget the other guys price i would laugh and tell them to loose my phone number


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ellas70 said:


> this low balling thats has to stop cause its killing the business and what i dont understand is that i lost about 35 jobs last year to low ballers and 22 of them called me to come and fix the headaches of the low ballers but the places would ask me if i would finish or fix the job for the same money cause thats what is in there budget the other guys price i would laugh and tell them to loose my phone number


Man, you sure are a "cup is half empty" kind of guy :jester: You should look at it as 22 customers that wont hire lowballers anymore. :thumbsup:


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

It's not going to stop. It's basic economics and part of the human condition.

What you are going to have to do is learn to deal with that reality. Accept that it exists and will always exist and sell your services for what they are. Nobody that delvers a quality product likes it, but we'll all go batsh1t insane if we dwell on it and lose sight of what we are trying to deliver.

I would also suggest taking the "repair" opportunity to educate your customers about the hazards and pitfalls of trying to save a buck or two. Obviously they are half way there because they called you to fix the crap...use that...win them over.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Wood511 said:


> I would also suggest taking the "repair" opportunity to educate your customers about the hazards and pitfalls of trying to save a buck or two. Obviously they are half way there because they called you to fix the crap...use that...win them over.


Exactly :notworthy:


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

It's one of the crappiest things to have to do is fix someone else's messed up job! I would have to say go and do it. You can ether expect to be there painter in the future or at least have there respect when they look over your bid the next time.

This is why I do all painted cabinets for one customer. I got the call, I fixed as if there was not mess up. They only had to pay double what I would have charged.


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## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Man, you sure are a "cup is half empty" kind of guy :jester: You should look at it as 22 customers that wont hire lowballers anymore. :thumbsup:


it is a lesson learned on there part
i don't advertise my business everything i do is word of mouth i just signed 6 more jobs yesterday 
i was referred to them and i am doing work for them on other properties
they have been giving me work since then cause the contractors that they got to go and fix the headaches ripped them off big time 
you have to make a stand 
i never back down but i know how to play the game
i just cant stand loosing nice deals to idiots that have no clue as to what they are doing or asshole contractors that have illegals working for them 
i don't care what nationality your are but if i have to pay taxes then so should you 
there are two reason that these guy's can low ball illegal immigrants, and lack of knowledge


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

No doubt more often it takes much longer to fix it than it would take to do it "properly" the first time. So your high bid becomes higher to fix it.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Lol, None of this is anything new. Losing bids happens. Move on. Maybe work on your sales skills?


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## mr.fixit (Aug 16, 2009)

went to the local Sherwin Williams pro show last night and heard a lot of horror stories about lowballers. there are a lot of guys out there working for grocery money it seems


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

Hmm... I'm suffering of the same thing in here, you can't get rid of lowballers, nowadays anybody that pick up a brush think is a painter. I've lost around 12 jobs in the las couple of weeks, I know what I can do and for much I can do it but, don't low ball the jobs, something else will come up for you, let the lowballers dig their own grave, that will happen eventually, they can just go for so long until they blow.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

ellas70 said:


> Everybody out there that low balls jobs just to get them you have to stop doing that cause your hurt the business i just lost another job by alot and i cant figure it out how there going to get it done
> the painting company that won the job was 15,000 dollars lower than me the job is worth about $47,000 i was told that the other two bids were near mine but that 4th one beet everybody i just don't get it how these idiots r making ends meet there is no profit in it


 It's frustrating ellas. This has been talked about *a lot* here. Many will tell you to differentiate yourself and improve your skills as a salesperson and they are correct. Adjustments need to be made. I will also tell you that I see the gap between legitimate and illegitimate is wider now than I have ever seen it in over 35 years in my area. It does effect me(where it *never* did before)and I am operating a third generation referral based business. Combine that with the general public being very price conscious and working in a service profession where the customer can not see the finished product or "experience" until they have already bought it and it becomes even more difficult. Add to that an imbalance in many areas of just too many service providers for services needed. In areas that experienced a lot of new construction over the past decade or so and now the building has stopped, a lot of the NC guys have had to "adjust" and enter the repaint market. 
The killer is that many of the guys you call low ballers actually make more profit on a project than a legitimate contractor-from their perspective they are NOT working cheap. The $ that legitimate contractors are out there fighting for everyday is usually not their own-it's payroll and income taxes, workers comp and employe benefits. I am actually starting to see a "if you can't beat them-join them" movement going on(maybe this is what some mean when they say make "adjustments"). Obviously, this only makes it worse.
The only advice I can give you is what has worked for me-stay true to yourself. The bottom line is-"we" can not _compete_ with this type of competition-it is impossible. You sound like you have built a nice referral based business. Take care of the people that take care of you. For me it has meant scaling back a little and focusing on the most profitable projects and customers. For others the answer has been to grow and pound the internet with advertising and do volume. I feel your pain, keep the faith:thumbsup:


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## Final Element (Apr 10, 2011)

I have been experiencing the same effect, I bid on jobs, provide a transparent quote, just to have it low balled by some hack with a van and some tools. 

I bid on my own condo building in Victoria for exterior repaint, I quoted 15,642. on point got the tender for 15000. they did a shizer job, damaged the lawn, and were forced to provide the extras I had stipulated for a lesser price. The end result: a poor job. I mean its bad when you get under bid by $30,000 but its worse when your loosing jobs over, a grand or less. 

At the end of the day, when a potential client has chosen to go with my competition, and they call me back for a fix, or to finish, I tack on an additional 20% to the original quote. as it says on paper. 

Now I understand that if your a big company, you have more over head, and a little crew has less, and thats why small guys can bid a job at 75% less, but when your a small guy, and other small guys are out there lowballing each other, its hard to do business, and at the end the customer always pays for it. one way or another. 

But to tell you the truth, I wouldn't have it any other way. Without the bad guys, I wouldn't look so good. :thumbup:


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

You have to take lowballers and use them to soak up the muddy water.. that is what they are there for.. to take everything you don't want to or have to work on.. so it leaves the better projects for you to quote a price and get the work from.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

because if you tell the customer.. "here is my price, this is what it costs to do X,Y, & Z.." you have them see what your #'s stand for, the work that is being done and knowing you are just getting the $$ to cover for the time and material, taking care of your company.. and then some company comes in with an AMAZING PRICE!! and takes the work.. I ask the customer.. 

*ME:*"how are they able to take 25% off a job? You knew what the cost was to do the job.. how are they going to be able to come in and do the same work, same quality for LESS than it costs to do the work?" 

*THEM:*"I don't know but they said they will give me a FREE color consultation to boot!".. 

Isn't too good to be true.. true? That saying wasn't just invented.. sure it has been passed down way before the days of the bible and all of that.. nothing new yet people never seem to learn. 

You get what you pay for. Don't you guys lower your rates to meet the hacks, that is the wrong way to go about it. You will be in a race to the bottom with them if you do.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

nEighter said:


> You get what you pay for. Don't you guys lower your rates to meet the hacks, that is the wrong way to go about it. You will be in a race to the bottom with them if you do.


 I totally agree, but it's really not an option unless you make the decision to become an outlaw. To do it properly and legally it's worth what it's worth. It's not like the numbers just come out of the sky and you can knock 30% off and just make a little less on that job. I've been doing this too long and have too much to loose to go there.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

They are going to go with you or not. Bottom line. If they are price shoppers.. then they will get what they get. My dad has always been the "thrifty guy". Would buy a "to good to be true" computer from some infomercial or some ad in the back of a magazine.. they NEVER worked.. or were so crappy that you had to constantly send them back to the company (which was the case for him).

There is a cost to be in business, to run a legitimate company. The public would not want it any other way. I would think you would want a real company to work on your property. I want insured & certified people coming out working on my gas and plumbing.. would not entertain anything less.

I was thinking about it last night. We have alot riding on our shoulders as self employed business folks. We have to provide for ourselves, our business, a quality job for our customers, we have to do bill enough money to pay for everything AND warranty our work.. which is a whole OTHER can of worms. 

Wasn't it a known that you would pay for a service? I mean back in the day the Milkman was a respected service. What would it take for our trade, and THE trades to re-establish this respect?

shut up Neps..


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

nEighter said:


> They are going to go with you or not. Bottom line. If they are price shoppers.. then they will get what they get. My dad has always been the "thrifty guy". Would buy a "to good to be true" computer from some infomercial or some ad in the back of a magazine.. they NEVER worked.. or were so crappy that you had to constantly send them back to the company (which was the case for him).
> 
> There is a cost to be in business, to run a legitimate company. The public would not want it any other way. I would think you would want a real company to work on your property. I want insured & certified people coming out working on my gas and plumbing.. would not entertain anything less.
> 
> ...


Re-establish the respect?
Where have you been?

The painting industry hasn't had respect in many moons. Take a look at the mission statement of the PDCA from 120 years ago...you'll find that nothing has changed. For crying out loud, my grandfather was painting back in the 1920's and said painters losing their eyesight because they were drinking the alcohols that were dirty. BTW, now we have denatured alcohol...so drunk painters can't drink it.

We also have the reality that MOST people can paint, vs MOST people can't do plumbing or electrical work...or at least beyond the simple stuff. Therein lies the problem IMO. For crying out loud, my grandmother was hanging her own wall paper 90 years ago.

Simply put...if change were to come to the painting industry, it would be a first.

What's the answer?

I know what it is but nobody wants to hear it...trust me, lol.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'd like to hear it, Harry.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I'd like to hear it, Harry.


 Me too!


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## It's the painter (Nov 19, 2009)

I get what you're trying to say Harry,and in a way you are right everyone can put paint on something.But when i paint something there's a process that i follow and the results are always the same having my client tell me it looks great or complementing me on how i'm a true professional at what i do.I take pride in what I do and alot of knowledge comes in play to get the results.:thumbsup:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

painters these days are mostly glorified HO'ers anyway and if you noticed even here on a so called ''pro'' website they have an add for that cut in tool that HO'ers use lol ..............wierd but its business i guess


cant forget about Bobbo either and his blue tape baseboard pics...........YOUR A PRO :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schnapp.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Schnapp.


aawwwwwwww schnaaapppppp!:laughing:


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## Final Element (Apr 10, 2011)

What I've been seeing allot of, is guys bidding on jobs cheap, and skimping on the prep.

so prep work is a luxury that client gets if they pay enough? 

IF i am going to chop someone's grass, and lowball it, I am expecting to take a financial hit. I dont cut corners just to quote an attractive price. Sometimes you have to quote a cheep price, just to teach a competitor a lesson, but expect that making money is not the intention of that specific project, but advertising, and pissing off the other guy is. 

just saying.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

It's the painter said:


> I get what you're trying to say Harry,and in a way you are right everyone can put paint on something.But when i paint something there's a process that i follow and the results are always the same having my client tell me it looks great or complementing me on how i'm a true professional at what i do.I take pride in what I do and alot of knowledge comes in play to get the results.:thumbsup:


Sure, but your quality is not going to change the industry...there is quality everywhere. You and 500,000 other painters have quality.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

So what's the answer, Harry? I figured the answer was just to get out of the business.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> So what's the answer, Harry? I figured the answer was just to get out of the business.


You would, lol.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Do not keep us allmwondering Harry!

With such low start up cost for basic painting, I do not think much will change.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Very simple.

bigger gov't.


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## It's the painter (Nov 19, 2009)

No it isn't going to change the industry it's just gives me and edge toward getting repeats ans referrals and quality isn't everywhere, hard time trying to find a good painter to say the least.But low balling is a huge problem in my area.Back when i was working for someone i was making $1000-1300 a week to take home started my own biz did really good for 4years now the $1000 a week and no headaches sound good.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Very simple.
> 
> bigger gov't.


Like the RRP stuff, right only much bigger and better!


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

2 months ago in the dead of winter I was getting 95% of all bids. For some reason latley I'm only hitting about 60%. Ive lost some good jobs this past month to lowballers. Ive even tightend up a bit just to test market on the bigger stuff and still get beat out. I've even thrown out the "We'll beat any quote" and customers still disappear when i think I got the job.
I think it may those gypsies someone around here was telling me about.


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## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

A realtor I work with uses lowballer prices. I'm sure she makes them up. I'm sure she almost has to be. I bid a small rent house touch up job for $650. She came back with "I have a guy that can do it for $300." I told her I'd go down to $625 and that's all and for her to go ahead and get the "other guy" to do it if she didn't accept my price. AND his price included materials...shower door, paint, light bulbs for entire house. No way he coulda made anything off it. She's tried to play me before and I stick to my price. I usually get the job but sometimes I wonder if there ARE these lowballers out there


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> 2 months ago in the dead of winter I was getting 95% of all bids. For some reason latley I'm only hitting about 60%. Ive lost some good jobs this past month to lowballers. Ive even tightend up a bit just to test market on the bigger stuff and still get beat out. I've even thrown out the "We'll beat any quote" and customers still disappear when i think I got the job.
> I think it may those gypsies someone around here was telling me about.


95%, 60% and "We'll beat any quote"

Sound's like this thread is about you buddy. 

Maybe your competition sharpened their selling skills and out sold you with a higher price. :yes:


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> 95%, 60% and "We'll beat any quote"
> 
> Sound's like this thread is about you buddy.
> 
> Maybe your competition sharpened their selling skills and out sold you with a higher price. :yes:


Do you know how to read the words TEST MARKET right there in my reply or did you skip that part in school and went right to painting houses for a living. For someone that sits on a chat board all day about painting houses you would think youd be smart enough to interpret the proper meaning before letting your nonsense dribble down your chin.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Vermont and Dean...you know the truth.
Bottom line is...if we don't have any entry level requirements comparable to plumbers and electricians, we'll never be taken seriously.

If a registered and licensed painter is the only game in town, it may be worth it. I do realize that it would be a bitch to try enact because for one thing...just looking at what trades need permits and for good reasons...we can't easily state that a HO needs a permit to paint?

I guess we could lobby to have all sorts of airborne contaminants put in paint which necessitates ambient air, suits, etc....nah


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The paint industry made it's bed 100 years ago. So did the plumbers and electricians. We just have to look a little harder for the unsoiled spot. Alot of people in this industry aren't willing to do the work it takes to make it work. But alot are. It's not the Hotel California some think.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> Do you know how to read the words TEST MARKET right there in my reply or did you skip that part in school and went right to painting houses for a living. For someone that sits on a chat board all day about painting houses you would think youd be smart enough to interpret the proper meaning before letting your nonsense dribble down your chin.


:thumbsup: He says at 10:48 am.

Thanks for the chuckle.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> The paint industry made it's bed 100 years ago. So did the plumbers and electricians. We just have to look a little harder for the unsoiled spot. Alot of people in this industry aren't willing to do the work it takes to make it work. But alot are. It's not the Hotel California some think.


So, what are you saying?


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Harry said:


> So, what are you saying?


 Don't wet the bed!


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> :thumbsup: He says at 10:48 am.
> 
> Thanks for the chuckle.


Right here son, right here.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Painting Contractors should have a county licensining certificate of competency. First you would have to turn in copy of drivers license, credit report and resume, taxes, w2s showing 3 years in directly related industry. It would cost about 200 bux to apply for the exam. Once approved you would have to invest in about 500 bux worth of books. The P & D of America book. Workers comp law book, accounting book and a safety guideline book. The exam is 8 hours and based on information from all of these publications. It is an open book exam. The exam to be composed by someone like Block and Accosiates. The county construction board hosts the exams for painters, plumbers,electricians,etc.
After passing with 75% you get the county certificate of competency. All contractors must have on or in violation. The license number you get must be on all truck signs advertisements, etc.
Each neighboring county usually reciprocates the neighboring license and the contractor pays a maybe 200 fee to extend license to neighboring counties.

This my freinds will eliminate contractors working illigally and contractors working for wages. Lowballing would drop considerably and your charges will be that of a true business owner. Those too stupid to pass the exam or fullfill qualifications will just throw in the towel and give up.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> So, what are you saying?


I'm saying that if you look at the true history of this trade comparatively with the higher paying trades (plumbing and electrical, for instance), decisions that were made collectively within the respective trades about how they would value themselves long ago actually had great influence over the perceived value of each going forward. On average, other trades command more of a premium. Painters can, but it's alot more work. In my area, it's generally accepted that plumbers and electricians might cost $60-90/hr. The expectation for paint costs is much lower, which creates a built in obstacle in this low cost of entry trade. I'm ok with it.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm saying that if you look at the true history of this trade comparatively with the higher paying trades (plumbing and electrical, for instance), decisions that were made collectively within the respective trades about how they would value themselves long ago actually had great influence over the perceived value of each going forward. On average, other trades command more of a premium. Painters can, but it's alot more work. In my area, it's generally accepted that plumbers and electricians might cost $60-90/hr. The expectation for paint costs is much lower, which creates a built in obstacle in this low cost of entry trade. I'm ok with it.


OMG!!! So what your saying is painters are known historically as a bottom feeder trade??? Alcoholics, crackheads and now with intrernet chatboards, EGOMANIACS????
And we dont make as much as other trades???
Say it aint so.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> Painting Contractors should have a county licensining certificate of competency. First you would have to turn in copy of drivers license, credit report and resume, taxes, w2s showing 3 years in directly related industry. It would cost about 200 bux to apply for the exam. Once approved you would have to invest in about 500 bux worth of books. The P & D of America book. Workers comp law book, accounting book and a safety guideline book. The exam is 8 hours and based on information from all of these publications. It is an open book exam. The exam to be composed by someone like Block and Accosiates. The county construction board hosts the exams for painters, plumbers,electricians,etc.
> After passing with 75% you get the county certificate of competency. All contractors must have on or in violation. The license number you get must be on all truck signs advertisements, etc.
> Each neighboring county usually reciprocates the neighboring license and the contractor pays a maybe 200 fee to extend license to neighboring counties.
> 
> This my freinds will eliminate contractors working illigally and contractors working for wages. Lowballing would drop considerably and your charges will be that of a true business owner. Those too stupid to pass the exam or fullfill qualifications will just throw in the towel and give up.


FINALLY I get someone to nail my point!
Yes, exactly...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm saying that if you look at the true history of this trade comparatively with the higher paying trades (plumbing and electrical, for instance), decisions that were made collectively within the respective trades about how they would value themselves long ago actually had great influence over the perceived value of each going forward. On average, other trades command more of a premium. Painters can, but it's alot more work. In my area, it's generally accepted that plumbers and electricians might cost $60-90/hr. The expectation for paint costs is much lower, which creates a built in obstacle in this low cost of entry trade. I'm ok with it.


Based on your post we can all agree then, that the PDCA was garbage then and it still is garbage...when speaking of how it changed the reputation of the industry.

"The Painting and Decorating Contractors of America (PDCA) traces its history to 1884 when it was established by a group of contractors. The first name of PDCA was the "Master House Painters Association of the United States and Canada". It came into legal existence in New York City on January 15, 1885 for the specific purpose of attacking industry abuses which arose from "unwise competition", to remedy a defective apprentice system, to solve problems created by unsatisfactory materials, and to devise a means for assuring the public of the "skill, honorable reputation, and probity" of master painters. "


Seriously, the PDCA has a few good things, including those cool stickers, lol.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> Painting Contractors should have a county licensining certificate of competency. First you would have to turn in copy of drivers license, credit report and resume, taxes, w2s showing 3 years in directly related industry. It would cost about 200 bux to apply for the exam. Once approved you would have to invest in about 500 bux worth of books. The P & D of America book. Workers comp law book, accounting book and a safety guideline book. The exam is 8 hours and based on information from all of these publications. It is an open book exam. The exam to be composed by someone like Block and Accosiates. The county construction board hosts the exams for painters, plumbers,electricians,etc.
> After passing with 75% you get the county certificate of competency. All contractors must have on or in violation. The license number you get must be on all truck signs advertisements, etc.
> Each neighboring county usually reciprocates the neighboring license and the contractor pays a maybe 200 fee to extend license to neighboring counties.
> 
> This my freinds will eliminate contractors working illigally and contractors working for wages. Lowballing would drop considerably and your charges will be that of a true business owner. Those too stupid to pass the exam or fullfill qualifications will just throw in the towel and give up.



How does this fix anything? We have plenty of rules right now that go unenforced. We have immigration rules and every day tons of cops drive by 100 illegals standing outside the 7-11 waiting to be picked up for day labor. My state requires PC licensing, yet tons of people advertise hack labor on Craig's list and undercut me all the time. 

Who does anything about it? Put another way...who cares? If none of the authorities are doing anything about it, then I think they don't care.

So your answer is to make THOSE THAT CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE RULES go through more and bigger hoops to obtain legit paperwork (and qualifications that the vast majority of HO's don't know or care about) just so we can still get lowballed by a dude with a ladder sticking outta the back of a Hyundai?

That doesn't change our reality. Because no one cares enough to enforce these "rules' we allegedly have.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Wood511 said:


> How does this fix anything? We have plenty of rules right now that go unenforced. We have immigration rules and every day tons of cops drive by 100 illegals standing outside the 7-11 waiting to be picked up for day labor. My state requires PC licensing, yet tons of people advertise hack labor on Craig's list and undercut me all the time.
> 
> Who does anything about it? Put another way...who cares? If none of the authorities are doing anything about it, then I think they don't care.
> 
> ...


Rules, Licenses, Certifications etc. that aren't policed are only more taxes for those that choose to do the right thing.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

CliffK said:


> Rules, Licenses, Certifications etc. that aren't policed are only more taxes for those that choose to do the right thing.


Lets all clip the hairs out of our ears, put down the whiskey bottles and crackpipes and listen up. Ready... here we go.

First the model I presented is what is used in Palm Beach County Florida. Also in many counties in Florida now. Licensing for trades was cracked down upon after hurricane andrew hit Miami and many building codes were flawed that resulted in homes not able to withstand hurricane force winds, thus south Florida counties began regulating all licened trades including Painting Contractors.

Guess what...it works...regardless of your negative attitude towards "who does and who doesnt do the right thing". Dont shoot yourselves in the foot AGAIN.

How does it work. 
1. Cant get an occupational license without the certificate of competancy.
2. Paint suppliers love it. Cant get an account without the certificate of competancy. Sherwin Williams is the first to push for the competency certificate. 
3. It gets around to the general public. Some dirtbags may slip through the cracks but most customers will ask for licensing.
4. Advertise in the yellow pages? Better show that license number, you will get a call form the construction board.
5. Drive around town in a lettered truck advertising your company? Better have that license number on there, other contractors will turn you in.
6. We pay out the rear to take that exam. Think we dont add it into the labor charge? We do.
7. Go give an estimate to some rich folks on Palm Beach island? Here sir, here is my competancy card Im a licensed painting contractor in Palm Beach county certified by the construction board. 
8. Those that generally lowball, work for wages,etc. Are usually too stupid to pass this exam. Nor do they have the cash or time to put into it. They die off. Ive seen it.

Other counties in Florida started doing this. Yes there were issues on who was going to police it. The cops werent going to touch it. Usually the licensing board handles it. Sherwin Williams sales reps seem to have the paths to generate interest in the local sources to get it going. The lead based paint thing isnt strong enough. You need full licensure for painting contractors.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

My state has a pretty good licensing program. You can't do any commercial work, GC's won't touch you without License and WC. My guys get "carded" by the state about twice a year on NC/Commercial jobs.

Some HO's care, some don't. They may be willing to take the risk for smaller jobs. I make sure to educate the customer on our licensing requirements and even provide a comparison sheet. I also have an app on phone to check License status.

I get lowballed more often from a Licensed one man band type than I do unlicensed contractors though.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

RCP said:


> My state has a pretty good licensing program. You can't do any commercial work, GC's won't touch you without License and WC. My guys get "carded" by the state about twice a year on NC/Commercial jobs.
> 
> Some HO's care, some don't. They may be willing to take the risk for smaller jobs. I make sure to educate the customer on our licensing requirements and even provide a comparison sheet. I also have an app on phone to check License status.
> 
> I get lowballed more often from a Licensed one man band type than I do unlicensed contractors though.


Exactly. One cant get rid of lowballing completely but licensure does indeed help. Ive been in Florida where there was pretty strict licensing and now in an area that has none whatsoever. While I get more work in my current location the going rate of a paint job isnt anywhere near that of a licensed state or county.
Good point, GC's wont touch you without the license.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Wood511 said:


> How does this fix anything? We have plenty of rules right now that go unenforced. We have immigration rules and every day tons of cops drive by 100 illegals standing outside the 7-11 waiting to be picked up for day labor. My state requires PC licensing, yet tons of people advertise hack labor on Craig's list and undercut me all the time.
> 
> Who does anything about it? Put another way...who cares? If none of the authorities are doing anything about it, then I think they don't care.
> 
> ...


With that mentality, we should just get rid of all the rules, lol.
I think it would be good...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

CPFSam said:


> Lets all clip the hairs out of our ears, put down the whiskey bottles and crackpipes and listen up. Ready... here we go.
> 
> First the model I presented is what is used in Palm Beach County Florida. Also in many counties in Florida now. Licensing for trades was cracked down upon after hurricane andrew hit Miami and many building codes were flawed that resulted in homes not able to withstand hurricane force winds, thus south Florida counties began regulating all licened trades including Painting Contractors.
> 
> ...


Of course it works. Just like the crime in India is low because they cut your fingers off if you steal 
Seriously, this country has gone to siht with all the wimps and pansies crying about this and that.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> Exactly. One cant get rid of lowballing completely but licensure does indeed help. Ive been in Florida where there was pretty strict licensing and now in an area that has none whatsoever. While I get more work in my current location the going rate of a paint job isnt anywhere near that of a licensed state or county.
> Good point, GC's wont touch you without the license.


 The situation here is that we get lowballed by licensed contractors. Guys that have 5 trucks all lettered, beautiful websites, Facebook pages and marketing and advertising campaigns. They are members of the PDCA and have nice uniforms. The problem is they have 1 or 2 employees that are legit and a team of Latinos that are paid in cash avoiding the majority of payroll taxes and the projects get gang banged for 30 & 40% less than a totally above board guy.
I operate a completely legit shop and have never been asked to present my license's(2 different counties), I have never had an income tax audit & never had a state sales tax audit. We need to present our certificates of insurance and workers comp on some projects, but they are for the company-I can bring anyone I want to work on the job and if nobody is checking to see if each guy is legit than everything seems fine.
My wife works at a hospital. They used to do all their own landscaping by in house people with health insurance, pensions etc. Now they hire it out to AAA Landscaping. As long as the company can provide the necessary paperwork the hospital don't care who's cutting the lawn. The crew is still made up of guys from the Home Depot Parking lot and the work is being done for a lot less than it was costing the hospital prior. The hospital is happy, the landscaping company is making money and the guys from Home Depot are making $125/day off the books and they think they are getting rich. Workers Comp is about the only one really checking with annual audits and these guys are clever enough to keep a couple of legit guys just for show.
I think as long as there is a huge workforce out there that is willing to work for low cash wages I think there will be contractors finding a way to take advantage of them to undersell the competition.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

CliffK said:


> The situation here is that we get lowballed by licensed contractors. Guys that have 5 trucks all lettered, beautiful websites, Facebook pages and marketing and advertising campaigns. They are members of the PDCA and have nice uniforms. The problem is they have 1 or 2 employees that are legit and a team of Latinos that are paid in cash avoiding the majority of payroll taxes and the projects get gang banged for 30 & 40% less than a totally above board guy.
> I operate a completely legit shop and have never been asked to present my license's(2 different counties), I have never had an income tax audit & never had a state sales tax audit. We need to present our certificates of insurance and workers comp on some projects, but they are for the company-I can bring anyone I want to work on the job and if nobody is checking to see if each guy is legit than everything seems fine.
> My wife works at a hospital. They used to do all their own landscaping by in house people with health insurance, pensions etc. Now they hire it out to AAA Landscaping. As long as the company can provide the necessary paperwork the hospital don't care who's cutting the lawn. The crew is still made up of guys from the Home Depot Parking lot and the work is being done for a lot less than it was costing the hospital prior. The hospital is happy, the landscaping company is making money and the guys from Home Depot are making $125/day off the books and they think they are getting rich. Workers Comp is about the only one really checking with annual audits and these guys are clever enough to keep a couple of legit guys just for show.
> I think as long as there is a huge workforce out there that is willing to work for low cash wages I think there will be contractors finding a way to take advantage of them to undersell the competition.


 
There is a difference in lowballing and losing a job to someone that operates with less overhead, thus, can do the job cheaper than another contractor. Assuming that everyone that under bids you is operating with illigal employees is not correct.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

CPFSam said:


> There is a difference in lowballing and losing a job to someone that operates with less overhead, thus, can do the job cheaper than another contractor. Assuming that everyone that under bids you is operating with illigal employees is not correct.


 I agree. It is not "everyone", probably only about 95% in this area:yes:


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Harry said:


> With that mentality, we should just get rid of all the rules, lol.
> I think it would be good...


I think it would be great. I'd love to have more rules, higher quals and we all get on board. But without someone carrying a big stick around none of it matters. It really has to be everyone on board to make it work. It would work tomorrow if they regulated paint like alcohol.


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

Low balling can be a good way to make money if used wisely. I will low ball occasionally when I am almost sure that the job will require additional work. The additional work can be charged at 5 times the rate of the original and is hardly ever questioned. I don't advise doing this to often because you risk being burned if they don't go for the additional work. Once again it is up to our skill as contractors to know how and when to extract the largest amount possible from our customers. sincerely james a. blackwell


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Harry said:


> FINALLY I get someone to nail my point!
> Yes, exactly...


I think I said it first. 

Bigger Gov't.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

blackwell said:


> Low balling can be a good way to make money if used wisely. I will low ball occasionally when I am almost sure that the job will require additional work. The additional work can be charged at 5 times the rate of the original and is hardly ever questioned. I don't advise doing this to often because you risk being burned if they don't go for the additional work. Once again it is up to our skill as contractors to know how and when to extract the largest amount possible from our customers. sincerely james a. blackwell


You sound like some of the bigger commercial outfits in my area just praying for the big change orders. Not the business model I desire.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

blackwell said:


> Low balling can be a good way to make money if used wisely. I will low ball occasionally when I am almost sure that the job will require additional work. The additional work can be charged at 5 times the rate of the original and is hardly ever questioned. I don't advise doing this to often because you risk being burned if they don't go for the additional work. Once again it is up to our skill as contractors to know how and when to extract the largest amount possible from our customers. sincerely james a. blackwell


 
Thats not lowballing. Thats called Fondeling the Customer.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

> i have decided to go with someone else that was a little cheaper and a
> friend of a friend...thank for your time


next!


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> You sound like some of the bigger commercial outfits in my area just praying for the big change orders. Not the business model I desire.


We work both the commercial and residential side but my business model demands that that I net a six figure income otherwise I'll find another trade or business to make my living. I like the current system where a contractor can make big money using his skills and wits the last thing I want is the government stepping in and trying to make parity. This isn't the NFL .


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

blackwell said:


> We work both the commercial and residential side but my business model demands that that I net a six figure income otherwise I'll find another trade or business to make my living. I like the current system where a contractor can make big money using his skills and wits the last thing I want is the government stepping in and trying to make parity. This isn't the NFL .


Those that live by the sword, die by the sword.


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## Whajado (Aug 14, 2010)

So now you blame people low balling jobs for your failure, REALLY! 

Is this something you tell your employee’s when they are sitting on the bench?

So the customer was sitting in front of you and you blew it. You drove off the property without a sale, shame on you. I guess you had something more important to do, like get on here and whine about how you failed to close the deal. 

And you call yourself an employer? 

You let the customer beat you and that’s on you. 

Get back out there and don’t take no for an answer, understand? Sell sell sell! 

 Good Luck


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

Whajado said:


> So now you blame people low balling jobs for your failure, REALLY!
> 
> Is this something you tell your employee’s when they are sitting on the bench?
> 
> ...


Thats my point instead of whining about it losing a sale learn from it. It seems like some guys are always complaining about how unfair life is instead of doing something about it. I have no sympathy for cats that come to a forum to learn and then refuse to listen to proven methods. As owner contractors we have sales tools if we don't use them then why cry about it. If you just want to paint and not deal with sales why go in business to begin with. sincerely james a. blackwell


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## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

Confession of a Lowballer

Well I presume some out here probably would denominate me as a lowballer. I do fit a bit of the criteria. I have done solo jobs for cash and then bought groceries..yes yes yes at one time was a full fledged technician having a seizure .see ive read a book.
Is self depricating humor all i know? peer in further and find out.

I will wear the badge of horror and can oust my self here among the fiercely determined painting captains, alas but a small speckle in the polymerization of your life.I have as much faculty to hinder you as overspray does for you to get the check. yet there is an inkling that many out here might be from my side of the tracks. get to the point!!!

This topic is so vast the variables are boundless. I dont really have a firm opinion at this moment I am in transition , to what ? So I will talk as I was around 2 years ago.( i like being the devils advocate).and rambling on... 
I remember when I first came out here mak-deco said something about how you cant be a legit business without making over 50 k. I have never reached that yet. Dont know if i want to either. I have nothing but respect for you complete go getters you know early to rise.. ... ya thats it... Like nEighter says Im just muddy water. And it might be true. 

Why cant prep be something that a customer has a choice to pay for if they want to shoot themselves in the foot so be it. And If i chose to embody that position all of a sudden I cant do a good job when asked?? Sure I take pride in my work look how long this F$%^IN rant is. The countless hours I have been up tormenting myself about what could of been done . I would love for someone to pay enough to do the most outlandish meticulous job ever. Im probably not the best seller out here... YA think aduh..

Point your fingers ooohhh im hurting the business. My van has rust on it,, I guess thats how i got the job done. Ya theres a problem with our industry you cant electrocute yourself when you’re painting or if the job is done wrong the whole house will not flood. Plumbers and electricians are the stars.. My question is carpenters should be more regulated then they are “from what I know”.. provided your house could be SOL if your stars screw up, but that’s assuming the house is still standing!!! You don’t think I am jealous when the inspector comes and just cracks a joke to me.. It would be great if our paint job had to pass code, wouldn’t it! And no Harry that’s not what we should do … Its to bad but human are greedy suns of biatch’s wood511 was just saying bin dar dundat.. Unfortunately a rule is made to be broken or atleast subverted.

Ive come to the conclusion that if I lose a bid based on price then an asian guy .. That’s a Toronto Mexican… What im just sayin!!… has won the bid. 
This is my first stupendously long post.:thumbup:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Toronto Bohemian Painters is more like it 



Nothing wrong if that's what works (or doesn't) for you


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

jason123 said:


> Confession of a Lowballer
> 
> Well I presume some out here probably would denominate me as a lowballer. I do fit a bit of the criteria. I have done solo jobs for cash and then bought groceries..yes yes yes at one time was a full fledged technician having a seizure .see ive read a book.
> Is self depricating humor all i know? peer in further and find out.
> ...


The question is not about whether we WANT rules and regulations at all.
The question is...what does the PROSPECT want.
When searching for a plumber or electrician, HVAC guy, etc...we don't usually call a neighbor, we call someone who seems to be a professional.

If you had credentials, you probably wouldn't be driving a rust bucket.

Opinions are great but in the end, the truth is right in front of your face...


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## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

yeah yeah.. bohemian painter:thumbsup: I think I just found my title...lolz,, good one

wether or not you like it we are just step above roofers. If you want to get crews and make$. rock rock on
Like vermontpainter say we made our bed a 100 years ago.
It doesn't seem to absurd that painting is found at the level it is.

credentials shmedentials??? what does that mean? so you have a bigger profit margin than me.. I suppose people will always illuminate our difference's ( im a people to,,, a bohemian peep) harry you have seemed to reach the basis for my mild indignation.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

jason123 said:


> yeah yeah.. bohemian painter:thumbsup: I think I just found my title...lolz,, good one
> 
> wether or not you like it we are just step above roofers. If you want to get crews and make$. rock rock on
> Like vermontpainter say we made our bed a 100 years ago.
> ...


Jason, a self proclaimed title (or a confession) will get you that kind of discussion.
As much as I know you, I know Harry too. He doesn't sit on fences much.
The Bohemian thing expresses you in a good way I think(music connection there)
Lots of room in my world for that kind of thing as you know.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

With as much respect as I can muster under the premise of despising big government... anybody that wishes more regulations on a business deserves what they get. Cliff nailed it. Its only a tax for legitimate businesses. Lowballers operate under the radar of licensing, insurance and taxes. What exactly would increasing regulations do to deter that?? All it will do is create an even wider gap between those bidding legitimately and those not running a real business. The side effect would be that "low ballers" could charge more, make more and still be the lowest bidder by dramatic margin. Economics dictates that that would breed even more lowballers.

ummm. No thanks.

If the gov't would increase enforcement and public education about the laws they already have, then maybe they could think about making tighter standards. Even then, its BS and a detriment to capitalism.

So many people miss the point. Who cares about people offering lower price? You have to sell better. You have to generate more leads. Then you'll have enough business that it doesn't matter what the other end of the gene pool is doing.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

jason123 said:


> yeah yeah.. bohemian painter:thumbsup: I think I just found my title...lolz,, good one
> 
> wether or not you like it we are just step above roofers. If you want to get crews and make$. rock rock on
> Like vermontpainter say we made our bed a 100 years ago.
> ...


What the hell are you talking about?
At 23 years old I was running between 23-40 men. I walked the walk man.
If you want to lay down and die, go ahead, lol.
If you want to believe all that crap about what a painter is destined for...go ahead...I could give 2 crappolas...


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## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

Harry said:


> What the hell are you talking about?
> At 23 years old I was running between 23-40 men. I walked the walk man.
> If you want to lay down and die, go ahead, lol.
> If you want to believe all that crap about what a painter is destined for...go ahead...I could give 2 crappolas...


congrats... 


See the prob with this is were it ends up ultimately is i can do this better you can do that better... I hate quoting myself,, but like I said if you want to get crews and make $ then rock rock on...

If it is true that a painter is id hope above roofing.. then that is all that means.. you can decide what that determines,, the option and opportunities are endless..

thank you for your time..
here at painter for hire we are not just painters but customer care specialist..


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

jason123 said:


> congrats...
> 
> 
> See the prob with this is were it ends up ultimately is i can do this better you can do that better... I hate quoting myself,, but like I said if you want to get crews and make $ then rock rock on...
> ...


Oh well,,, were just painters


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

All the business mumbo jumbo aside, if you are honest, that's what matters. It's not a perfect world. Painting isn't entirely by numbers. There have been some tough years and most of us are still around. 

I was thinking about your post earlier, and about how other trades more predominantly command much higher rates. Then I thought about the water in my basement and how a water pump can move water at 1800 gallons per hour.

Per hour. Then I thought how much it would suck to be the plumber who caused the third floor master bath drain to flood the house and damage a couple of floors and ceilings. And then I think of the painters up on the roof sweating their asses off, trying to keep a wet edge, and not look down.

There isn't really anyone who is going to save the day for everyone, so everyone has to do what they feel is best, and use good judgment, and then hopefully things get better for everyone.

I learned this from jtp during the Collective Consciousness years at paint talk.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> With as much respect as I can muster under the premise of despising big government... anybody that wishes more regulations on a business deserves what they get. Cliff nailed it. Its only a tax for legitimate businesses. Lowballers operate under the radar of licensing, insurance and taxes. What exactly would increasing regulations do to deter that?? All it will do is create an even wider gap between those bidding legitimately and those not running a real business. The side effect would be that "low ballers" could charge more, make more and still be the lowest bidder by dramatic margin. Economics dictates that that would breed even more lowballers.
> 
> ummm. No thanks.
> 
> ...


Elitist. :jester:


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

jason123 said:


> congrats...
> 
> 
> See the prob with this is were it ends up ultimately is i can do this better you can do that better... I hate quoting myself,, but like I said if you want to get crews and make $ then rock rock on...
> ...


Hold on now...it's you who makes the "better" distinction, not me.
If you think you're a loser, you're right. If you think you're a winner, you're right...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm no fan of big government but i am a fan of organization. I'm not left or right in my opinion, I'm just trying to look at the situation logically.

The truth is that the system that has been in place does not work well. I don't know what the exact solution is, I just feel that there is one out there.

I get a kick out of the fact that when subjects like this come up, we see everyone scatter to the left or right but no one stays in the middle.

Perhaps THAT is where the problem lies.

I've never seen anything dumber than words like "democrats" and republicans" in the year 2011...should be as obsolete as the Burgermeister 

Talk about segregation, lol...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

They come in khaki too.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Are you guys calling getting a license for competancy bigger govt? Is that what you mean? Plumbers and electricians must take exams to get licensed in their trade. Why would any painting contactor not want more regulation in their trade to help weed out those that lowball and dont know what they are doing? Your trade is filled with drunks and crackheads, why, because ANYONE can open a painting business.
Ive seen the difference with my own two eyes. The going rate to paint a house is higher in a licensed regulated state or county than in one that isnt. PERIOD.

In another thread someone is complaining that in a neighborhood where they have lots of referals a unlicensed uninsured painter is lowballing, taking his customers, if his area were regulated to whom holds a painting contractor license it would take 1 phone call and the county would be on that guys tail. Problem solved.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CPF, he (the LB'er) is already regulated to have a contractor's license (not everywhere), to carry insurance and to pay taxes. Chances are he does not do all the above, if any at all. Let's say you, CPF, do all three. Now add in having to send yourself and any employees through all of this certification and testing you talk about. Your labor now becomes more skilled. On top of your cost for the certification of your employees, their salary also rises... It costs Uncle Sam more to enforce these added laws and regulations so guess where that money comes from? Taxes on your small business. Now go ahead and factor all of that overhead and markup into your bids.

Here is where it really falls apart. The person hiring you is a self serving individual. All he/she may see is the dramatic price difference. Your cost of doing business has escalated so of course you have to charge enough to stay in business. Here comes our buddy the LB'er who worries about none of this regulation nonsense. The gov't is too disorganized to enforce some residential job in East Podunk and is overburdened in Philadelphia, Chicago and San Francisco so you, the honest and legitimate business person, get pushed further out of the bid running. Your only choices are to cut your own margins or lower your work quality. 

Its a slippery slope and the hill gets steeper the more regulations get put into place. Nobody really wins from that except the people its meant to destroy. Irony at its best.

My political party is untethered capitalism. I am firmly middle of the road, I just think the gov't runs a lousy business and has no right getting its fingers into what I do. I believe the lowballers are necessary for the whole thing to work. Someone has to handle that work. When they venture into higher end and higher paying jobs, their risk of getting exposed or fined goes up. Perfect. That means they stay out of the serious end of the pool. 

Damn.. I AM an elitist I guess. I've worked hard to get where I am. I don't make any apologies for it.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Untethered capitalism already exists for the 1% of the population,
gas companies and many others as you have witnessed 
in the last few years. 
The rest of you fry with taxes, or user fees, or astronomical gas prices.

Nothing middle of the road there PP, right wing to extreme oblivion.
Unless you still dream of trickle down Reaganomics coming back.

Nothing wrong with legitimacy, lack of enforcement does not make it wrong.

Politics Alert!
I can't even be around later and I am a "last word" freak.
Take it away Ken


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

George says...
"Nothing wrong with legitimacy, lack of enforcement does not make it wrong."

I agree...


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

In order for all the regulations to really work there needs to be a huge crackdown on income tax and payroll tax evasion. *Everyone* would have to be scrutinized and audited all the time to cut down on evaders. (Do "I" really want this much government in my face?) More importantly there would need to be permit process in place in order to do paint work on your home similar to that of construction, plumbing or electrical work. There would need to be a painting inspector that comes and makes sure that the customers dining room has been painted "properly"-whatever the hell that means, in order for the homeowner to get a certificate that it has passed inspection. This certificate would be something the *homeowner* needs in order to be "legal". Some of the burden would need to be placed on the home and business owners hiring for the work, just like when there is a building permit. This being said-it's never gonna happen. Maybe for the RRP work, but not for standard paint work. 
Painting is part skill, trade, craft, but mostly service. The hairdresser is licensed, but who's to say that it's a nice haircut. You can get a haircut for $7 or for $70. It's still a service, and there is someone out there for everybody. The quality of a service is mostly in the eye of the beholder or the recipient. It is difficult to legislate that.
I firmly believe that it is not a license or insurance that differentiates a legit contractor from a "lowballer". The cost of license and insurance is minimal compared to income and payroll taxes. It's the taxes that are the reason some can underbid "legit" contractors by 30%-50% not a license or insurance. It is very difficult to tell the customer you are 40% more than the next guy because you pay your and your employer taxes-most DON'T CARE. I can justify and sell being more $ than the next guy because we provide a better service, do a better job or are more handsome, but not because I pay my taxes. It is also like negative campaigning, which I HATE. I've been at this a long time and I know what I'm doing, we do a nice job and we are efficient. You can not do the same project for 40% less than me, make the customer happy and have it be worthwhile unless you are cheating. Customers only want a nice job/experience for the best price they can get, for the most part they don't care who's paying what. With the huge influx of Latino workers in this industry has come a huge cash payroll system. The workers want the cash-they don't want a check, the contractors saves A LOT of $ when he pays in cash and he can pass that savings on to the customer and under bids the competition. The customer gets a lesser price. It has become the standard for pricing in my area. Everyones happy, except poor slobs who are exhausted from trying to justify being more than 30% above the competition for $ that isn't to be theirs and the government that is going broke by the day.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

George Z said:


> Untethered capitalism already exists for the 1% of the population,
> gas companies and many others as you have witnessed
> in the last few years.
> The rest of you fry with taxes, or user fees, or astronomical gas prices.
> ...


Perhaps a right wing idealism but it has nothing to do with political party affiliation... that's an assumption on your part. I am in favor of pro-choice, gay marriage rights, and pretty much all socially liberal viewpoints. Fiscally, I am conservative. Its a simple mantra I have learned through my own mistakes... If you cannot afford it, you don't buy it. I am a business owner and eyes-open person that has seen what gov't does and how it runs its operations. Poorly. Why? Because there are no shareholders and P&L statements to answer to. It is the exact opposite of capitalism. 

As a corporation, I get the same tax breaks available to Exxon or anyone that files and maintains the paperwork. If i want a company of that size I build a business that can sustain the next three generations. Every regulation the gov't puts in my path, means the entrepreneurial dream of building a wealth producing company gets more difficult to obtain. I love that Exxon, GE and Warren buffet pay little-to-no money in tax (in terms of percentage). It proves my point that the IRS is a poorly run operation. 

I don't understand how so many will spit talking points talking about taxes for the wealthy. The same breaks and loopholes are there for everyone. There is no provision in the tax code for "if you earn greater than $500k/yr please forward to line 47 'tax owed' and enter $0". They built great companies, they employ many people, through efficiency they keep the cost of products down (the price of gas in the US is still cheaper than just about everywhere in the world including Canada). The CEO's and major stockholders (that 2%-3%) pay more than half the taxes collected by the government. 

I just don't see the great injustice that is cried by the left. Chances are, at this very second, every person on the left is enjoying a benefit provided by one of those large corporations and the government is being funded primarily by a very small percentage of the population. Now THAT, seems unfair.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Ken, FYI: Warren Buffett's salary is $100K per year. Yeah he owns alot of stock, but all of it is going to a charitable foundation when he dies. Berkhire Hathway doesn't pay yearly dividends on it's stock, so there is no income derived from it, just an increase in the value of the stock. Maybe we need to either go to an across the board flat-tax for everyone or a national sales tax in lieu of the current system?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think a flat or consumption tax is the way to go, but would have to see the details of the rates theu would want to charge. It would be nice of the tax code became simple enough to tax a few sheets of paper for filing forms and instructions combined. And maybe require a national convention and 2/3 majority to raise taxes in the future


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

You guys have missed the whole point,,,,,,

This is a thread about low-ballers,,, don't you know us low-ballers don't make enough to pay taxes anyway????? 

Sheese !!!!!!


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> You guys have missed the whole point,,,,,,
> 
> This is a thread about low-ballers,,, don't you know us low-ballers don't make enough to pay taxes anyway?????
> 
> Sheese !!!!!!


 Here's an unexpected turn of events. Now the Capt. has got me starting to feel sorry for the low-ballers...You're the best Capt.:thumbsup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is because unreported cash does not exist......


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> CPF, he (the LB'er) is already regulated to have a contractor's license (not everywhere), to carry insurance and to pay taxes. Chances are he does not do all the above, if any at all. Let's say you, CPF, do all three. Now add in having to send yourself and any employees through all of this certification and testing you talk about. Your labor now becomes more skilled. On top of your cost for the certification of your employees, their salary also rises... It costs Uncle Sam more to enforce these added laws and regulations so guess where that money comes from? Taxes on your small business. Now go ahead and factor all of that overhead and markup into your bids.
> 
> Here is where it really falls apart. The person hiring you is a self serving individual. All he/she may see is the dramatic price difference. Your cost of doing business has escalated so of course you have to charge enough to stay in business. Here comes our buddy the LB'er who worries about none of this regulation nonsense. The gov't is too disorganized to enforce some residential job in East Podunk and is overburdened in Philadelphia, Chicago and San Francisco so you, the honest and legitimate business person, get pushed further out of the bid running. Your only choices are to cut your own margins or lower your work quality.
> 
> ...


Uh, laborers/ employess dont take any certification. Only the contractor. that would be those that own the business. You guys dont get this point obviously. As business owners it works to your advantage. This has nothing to do with govt. It has to do with YOUR COMPETITION! I guess small ones cant get ahold of this.
In other words the crackheads/drunks too stupid to pass a certification are stuck as employees, if they can get hired. Get it???


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

How do you all talk about moving furinture . doing stuff for free in other threads but vote NO for painting contactor certification in your area? That makes no friggin sense. At all.

With that, Painters will be painters, not Painting Contactors. Bottom of the barrel. Drunks, crackheads. Upgrade your title will you. It takes a hell of a craftsman to do a good paint application. Stop with the grade school mentality.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CPFSam said:


> Uh, laborers/ employess dont take any certification. Only the contractor. that would be those that own the business. You guys dont get this point obviously. As business owners it works to your advantage. This has nothing to do with govt. It has to do with YOUR COMPETITION! I guess small ones cant get ahold of this.
> In other words the crackheads/drunks too stupid to pass a certification are stuck as employees, if they can get hired. Get it???


 I get it. I think you are living in a fantasy world if you think regulation will make one bit of difference other than being a financial deficit for legitimate business owners.


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

Those that are afraid of regulation have something to hide. They shafted a supplier or have bad bbb record or something. Your credit report is checked for the simple fact to see if you have screwed a supplier, which proves you incompetant to be a licensed contractor.

A little secret for those afraid of regulation. Usually 2 years of licensing makes you grandfathered in for most cases. Ill bet that changes your opinion.

Man up contactors.

And dont give me this "I'm mister customer sastisfaction, mister referal guy, mister big company of perfect custom homes, mister 1000 per room, if you cant man up and take an exam and prove your competant to hold a contractors license" 

Besides your a pressure cleaner right?


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

After further review. Pressure cleaners are exactly that, CLEANERS. Not contractors.
Electrical contractors, plumbing contractors, painting contractors..anybody get it?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Ken, FYI: Warren Buffett's salary is $100K per year. Yeah he owns alot of stock, but all of it is going to a charitable foundation when he dies. Berkhire Hathway doesn't pay yearly dividends on it's stock, so there is no income derived from it, just an increase in the value of the stock. Maybe we need to either go to an across the board flat-tax for everyone or a national sales tax in lieu of the current system?


What does Warren Buffett himself think about the tax system?

He thinks it is unfair and it favours his class.
Read his opinion, and Ken, considering his wealth, 
I think he could be way more biased than most, right?

Warren Buffett, slightly more wealthy than many of us here at Paint Talk says:


> “The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do,
> or our cleaning ladies, for that matter.


It is not the amount, it is the rate that is unfair.
Good luck collecting tax revenues from a homeless person.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Low ballers to Warren Buffet - thread hijacked - guilty as charged:whistling2:


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm a lowballer.

Mostly when its really hot out.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CPFSam said:


> Those that are afraid of regulation have something to hide. They shafted a supplier or have bad bbb record or something. Your credit report is checked for the simple fact to see if you have screwed a supplier, which proves you incompetant to be a licensed contractor.
> 
> A little secret for those afraid of regulation. Usually 2 years of licensing makes you grandfathered in for most cases. Ill bet that changes your opinion.
> 
> ...


You can kick and scream all you'd like, hombre. It doesn't change my opinion. I used to think like you and have been exposed to many reasons why it does not work. It sounds good on paper but that is as far as it goes in real life. 

Please share some real world experiences you have had implementing or being a part of legislation that served to regulate an industry and maybe I won't write you off as a blow hard.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I have a friend that is a licensed plumber, and he tells me stories all the time of illegal plumbers - but the whole licensing has definitely raised the bar for plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. I think the more commercial you go, or the more higher end, larger projects - licensing will help you tremendously.

I just have this feeling that painting as a trade will never be policed well enough for any licensing requirements from ever working properly. I am sitting on the sidelines of this whole RRP issue develop, it will either go bust or work extremely well. If it's the latter - I will probably jump in and fall in line - but I fear the former is more likely. And I'd rather sit out this intermediate period, where high priced violations get handed forcing contractors to go bankrupt. It's just not good policy to force the small guy to go to homeowners and charge them an extra $1,100 for the pleasure of handsanding some window sill.

Some guys talk about 'high-end' homeowners, I don't really buy into that. I see homeowners with their 500, 600, 700, and $800,000 homes routinealy purchase services from $35/man-hour crews. I've said it before and I will say it again - nothing will be a substitute for a great economy. When unemployment was like 2% in my state back in '99 - there wasn't a plethora of paint contractors, most guys were just happy to get a great paying job with less worries. You'd think a great economy would inspire guys to start their own company and make their own money - but it's the exact opposite - most guys start their own company when they have no other options left. As the economy gets better and there are more jobs, guys will jump back out of painting in favor of a 'real' job. I've already seen it happen. My neigbor that was a high paid salesman for Sun systems got laid off when the economy went south. He went into business for himself as a home builder remodeler, as that where he came from as a teenager and his brother was still doing it. Then after a few years, trying to build his business - the opportunity to get back in to corporate america and he took it without second thoughts. That's what I imagine will happen more and more over the next few years. 

Economists are saying with All the bab-boomers retiring - there will be 5 million more jobs than people to fill them by 2018. We could have negative unemployment numbers if you can believe it. Better times are coming, I imagine as the economy gets better for latin american countries - illegals will go back home as they prefer their homelands better than here anyways. This first decade was a big learning lesson for everyone - the question is as times get better and we can go back to charging the 'big' money again - will guys learn their lesson? Or will guys go back to being punch drunk and spend their money as fast as they make it? The temptations are huge - I'll be saving my money and not spending - I figure all I need is 10 good years and I can retire as long as I don't desire material things.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> I'm a lowballer.
> 
> Mostly when its really hot out.


And you're classy too. :001_huh:


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> I have a friend that is a licensed plumber, and he tells me stories all the time of illegal plumbers - but the whole licensing has definitely raised the bar for plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. I think the more commercial you go, or the more higher end, larger projects - licensing will help you tremendously.
> 
> I just have this feeling that painting as a trade will never be policed well enough for any licensing requirements from ever working properly. I am sitting on the sidelines of this whole RRP issue develop, it will either go bust or work extremely well. If it's the latter - I will probably jump in and fall in line - but I fear the former is more likely. And I'd rather sit out this intermediate period, where high priced violations get handed forcing contractors to go bankrupt. It's just not good policy to force the small guy to go to homeowners and charge them an extra $1,100 for the pleasure of handsanding some window sill.
> 
> ...


 A pretty insightful post Dan. I am licensed in 2 neighboring counties since the counties began requiring licensing. 1 county for maybe 15 years, the other for maybe 12. I never noticed any effect one way or another. I have never been required to show proof of license for anything. In fact the 1 county stopped even giving out stickers for your vehicle so you can display the license. They just want the $$. Workers Comp and liability insurance yes, but not license. I know you take a lot of crap around here from time to time(some of it you bring on yourself), but I think you are a realist many times and there are those that the truth will upset. I am a guy that can't stand to kid himself, but I also hate to feel like and play the victim. I like your optimism in this post-much better than selling the leads!! Lets hope the economy will improve, I'm not sure that will translate into the illegals going back home. If times are good here they will always be able to do better here and there will be plenty for them to do. I also do not believe a better economy will be a fix-all for guys who don't or haven't done the right thing or have businesses and lives built on a house of cards. There will always be low-ballers, maybe in better times there will be a few less and won't have as much of an effect on the industry as they have in the past several years.(that's always been the way it's worked in the past) I think there are things though that have been changed for the foreseeable future regardless of better economic times. I hope you get your 10 good years. Me, I've already had my 30 good years. These days we do the best we can, adjust, rely on what we've built, target the markets where there is the best profit for us, try not to put ourselves in positions where we need to compete, and bitch now and again of how "they really screwed it up this time" when it feels good.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> You can kick and scream all you'd like, hombre. It doesn't change my opinion. I used to think like you and have been exposed to many reasons why it does not work. It sounds good on paper but that is as far as it goes in real life.
> 
> Please share some real world experiences you have had implementing or being a part of legislation that served to regulate an industry and maybe I won't write you off as a blow hard.


Getting a little nasty, aren't ya?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I think we should stop all forms of licensing and schooling for the following..firemen, policmen, paramedics - we ought to not let 'big' government get their greedy inefficient controls over these professions.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I think we should stop all forms of licensing and schooling for the following..firemen, policmen, paramedics - we ought to not let 'big' government get their greedy inefficient controls over these professions.


Good post Dan...nothing like putting things into perspective


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Harry said:


> Getting a little nasty, aren't ya?


Responding in exactly the tone that was presented. There was nothing nasty in my post at all. If someone gets into your grill with statements like "do you get it (moron)" then they get called on it. I would say and do the same thing if he was standing in front of me.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I actually enjoy these talks with Ken.
(he is just wrong that's all lol)
To bring this back to the sublect.
The more difficult the entry to a trade is, 
the more qualified the participants will be.
Some of the recent larger (for us) jobs we got, I got to see the other quotes.
We were on the expensive side.
We got them because we had employees, accountable to us.
Our painters have their Fall Arest and other certifications, were licenced to use equipment,
real WSIB coverage (not some clearance thing) etc.
We also presented them with a listing of over 100 commercial clients we serviced.
Not exactly the example you were looking for Ken, I understand,
but enough qualifications there to eliminate any illegitimate competition.
Peace of mind is very tempting to people that have others to answer to.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Ken did not start the negative tone, so I will not fault him for responding in kind towards comments directed towards him. As threads veer more towards politics, please remember to keep things civil and polite. Thanks.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> Responding in exactly the tone that was presented. There was nothing nasty in my post at all. If someone gets into your grill with statements like "do you get it (moron)" then they get called on it. I would say and do the same thing if he was standing in front of me.


I didn't see that he asked a question and used the word "moron". Did he use the word "moron"? If so it was obviously ridiculous and responding in kind is just as ridiculous. We are all guilty of something I guess.
Ahhhh...politics...lol


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> You can kick and scream all you'd like, hombre. It doesn't change my opinion. I used to think like you and have been exposed to many reasons why it does not work. It sounds good on paper but that is as far as it goes in real life.
> 
> Please share some real world experiences you have had implementing or being a part of legislation that served to regulate an industry and maybe I won't write you off as a blow hard.


Obviously you are a child with some small time pressure cleaning company with a knack for internet sales and no comprehension of what it means to be A LICENSED PAINTING CONTRACTOR!!!
So in your book any chump that pays 50 bux to get a license from the county has the say so, knowledge, expertise to hang 2 employees from scaffolding on a 16 story building to apply elastomeric coating to a beachfront condo?
You my friend have no idea of the responsibilies and expectations of a true Painting Contractor. You think any chump with a $50 county occupational license should have the opportunity to bid 100 holiday inns?
Or do a complete refinish of a 100 year old victorian home of a past president?
You have no idea of this business and should let the true contractors of the painting industry make their own vote for their own industry.
And I would encourage all reputable Painting Contractors of the entire USA think about DEMANDING regulation from your local entities to examine and to regulate who holds a PAINTING CONTRCTORS LICENSE in your immediate area.
And to the pressure cleaner guy, I have posted in all of my past re-plies my experiences with 2 areas of licensed/non licensed locations. Try reading them. Painting Contractors make much more money in truly licensed areas.

I been doing this 23 years, yes painting stuff, we have a moral obligation to ourselves and our families to do whatever it takes to keep the pay scale as high as any other trade. Whatever we have to do. I think all painting contractors can agree on that.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Time for a commercial break


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

And _Now_, _Back to Our Regularly_ Scheduled _Programming_


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

I feel for all you established guys. I started my biz last year and am still small. I'm young, live cheap, and low business overhead. So pretty much I can take on a moderate pace of work and turn down jobs as I please. I like doing excel spreadsheets to calculate different amounts of work I can produce, how that relates to leaps in fixed expenses, and how much I need to be charging. 
So I have overhead, but it's a lot closer to the illegitimate guys than the rest of you. And let me tell you - I still need to charge about the same as bigger companies. It's really important to balance fixed expenses with volume of production; when you're small, even a new spray gun is a huge expense. 
I know it seems like the low-ballers are still making money because they don't pay their dues, but I highly doubt it. If I find some motivation maybe I'll calculate it out. My intuitive perspective is that they're bleeding money without even knowing it. Even if that's true, it doesn't help us get jobs, but it makes me feel better.


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## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

Just went on our local Craigslist. Get this, this guy says he'll power wash, scrape and paint the outside of a house for $750. BUT, he should be good though, he specifies its only labor . I almost wanted to email him and tell him to come paint "my" 4500 sq. ft. house for that price. Wow


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

PaintWork said:


> Just went on our local Craigslist. Get this, this guy says he'll power wash, scrape and paint the outside of a house for $750. BUT, he should be good though, he specifies its only labor . I almost wanted to email him and tell him to come paint "my" 4500 sq. ft. house for that price. Wow


 
A lot of these guys are on welfare or unemployment insurance benefits...They look for cash jobs so they can stay eligible for those benefits......sad but true.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CPFSam said:


> Obviously you are a child with some small time pressure cleaning company with a knack for internet sales and no comprehension of what it means to be A LICENSED PAINTING CONTRACTOR!!!


You are correct. I have no idea what it takes. I just know I pay more in payroll than many "licensed painting contractors" gross in a year. What I do understand is business. I've been a business owner for 22 years. The "child" days kissed me buh-bye a little while back. If you are taking an internet thread so to heart, it may be best to take a step away from the computer for a minute.




CPFSam said:


> So in your book any chump that pays 50 bux to get a license from the county has the say so, knowledge, expertise to hang 2 employees from scaffolding on a 16 story building to apply elastomeric coating to a beachfront condo?


No. The thread is about lowballers. The fact is, painting is not rocket science and many lowballers are probably decent painters. This thread is not about painting skill. My responses were about putting a hundred new regulations in place. You feel that your solution will solve the problem. I do not. 

Its a difference of opinion. Why does that upset you so much?



CPFSam said:


> [more of the original post deleted...]
> 
> I been doing this 23 years, yes painting stuff, we have a moral obligation to ourselves and our families to do whatever it takes to keep the pay scale as high as any other trade. Whatever we have to do. I think all painting contractors can agree on that.


Finally something that makes sense. I agree with your sentiment 100%. True business people (not just those that can apply coatings) understand this and they do not worry about lowballers because they understand how to sell and how.. to.. generate.. LEADS. They set their own pay scale.

You keep blowing through the horn as hard as you can but only spittle is coming out the other end. Most regulations on today's books are started by folks like yourself that believe their problems are what the other guy is doing, so they pressure the government to step in and make regulations to protect their business. Its crooked and it doesn't work for the big picture. 

I'm established and I make decent money. If I had to go out and buy $30,000+ worth of reclaim equipment to clean, then that's what I would have to do. It would not be right for me to campaign that everyone has to buy that on all levels just so I could keep new guys out of my industry. It sounds appealing... but its just wrong. 

And once again... even if i succeeded at that, the true lowballer would bypass it and just do jobs illegally. I spend $30K, he spends nothing. Who can bid cheaper? That's what you are not addressing?

Re-read the last paragraph. Its the core of what I have been writing. Nothing to do with any particular trade or skill set.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

BreatheEasyHP said:


> I feel for all you established guys. I started my biz last year and am still small. I'm young, live cheap, and low business overhead. So pretty much I can take on a moderate pace of work and turn down jobs as I please. I like doing excel spreadsheets to calculate different amounts of work I can produce, how that relates to leaps in fixed expenses, and how much I need to be charging.
> So I have overhead, but it's a lot closer to the illegitimate guys than the rest of you. And let me tell you - I still need to charge about the same as bigger companies. It's really important to balance fixed expenses with volume of production; when you're small, even a new spray gun is a huge expense.
> I know it seems like the low-ballers are still making money because they don't pay their dues, but I highly doubt it. If I find some motivation maybe I'll calculate it out. My intuitive perspective is that they're bleeding money without even knowing it. Even if that's true, it doesn't help us get jobs, but it makes me feel better.


The illegitimate guy is bleeding and he doesn't know it. His accounting is usually voodoo at best - he doesn't understand how to deduct expenses, and out of fear 'hides' a great fraction of his money - not understanding had he had real accountants, he wouldn't be hardly paying any taxes anyways! And the little he does declare, he declares it alongside his wifes income who is receiving a paycheck. And so probably ends up paying more taxes than he would have had he just filed seperately and filed a schedule 'D'. And then there is all the 'offbook' accounting, all the things the wife or g/f provides, like free yard for storage, paying for equipment out of a shared checking account {remember expenses not being deducted correctly?} paying for truck repairs, all out of the family household income. So in effect these wives are typically subsidizing all the customers in an implicit way, which manifests by these guys charging cheaper pricing because they don't have no 'overhead'. The overhead is always there.

Most guys fear of taxes is ridiculous - a one man band can gross quite a lot of sales before every dropping a dime to uncle sam. What customers pay us isn't a salary. Only salaries, or in our cases - net profits, ever get taxed.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> You keep blowing through the horn as hard as you can but only spittle is coming out the other end.


Ken said "spittle", that word is the bomb. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

F'in spittle!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Man....you guys really over think this painting thing! There has always been lowballers(loosely used term for anyone cheaper than you) since the dawn of time.Some do it intentionally,some don't. Get over it and move on to your next potential customer.Obviously that "customer" would not have been a good experience for you if they are only going on price.
Honestly,I can provide a less expensive service than many 1 man operations because we do not need to make all of our profits off of a single job.Our overhead is spread over several employees therefore lowering our price.
I guess I'm a lowballer....I'll be the guy in front of you at the bank


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> ....I'll be the guy in front of you at the bank


Doubt it, I can park my bicycle faster than you in your SUV. :jester:

The lowballer with many faces. Today we had dinner with the extended family. The firemen of the family talked about summer plans. The youngest is 29 years old and has over 40K in summer work set up. Quote: "its play money". 

He would laugh at anyone getting ticked at him taking jobs. He's a super nice guy....most here would hate him in text only....he could care less about his extended overhead - he's just working to buy a nicer quad.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Some of you guys talking foolishness and talking about crappy little wanna be painting companies. You're actually talking about painters who don't know much about business at all.

I know this because some of the "thanks" that I see going on here are from guys who are dead in the water.

You're in good hands, misery loves company


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## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

i know that i started this thread asking the low balling contractors to stop low balling jobs
this past week i received phone calls from 6 jobs that were low balled 2 of the 6 contractors thought that they would be slick and put in a bunch of change orders needles to say they were both thrown off of the jobs and they are willing to accept my numbers to get the job done 
the other 4 jobs i lost to the same contractor he actually walked when he figured out that he couldn't get the job done for the amount that won the jobs 
so i would like to thank the low ballers out there 
thank you low ballers 
thank you 
it is a lesson learned for those that are willing to learn 
those who are not well the wheel goes around and around


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

as long as you are charging more to take on the extra liability for those areas that were being worked on. Personally that is a shaky ground to stand on.. you guys already parted ways once. Make sure they are worth it if you select to work on their projects.


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## Ardee (Jun 9, 2008)

Took a few days to read thru all the posts and it seems to me that lowballers are get slammed because they take work away from higher bids.

Some say lowballers lack business skills, some say they are illegal and some say more regulations are needed. 

In many threads posted in the business section of PT, you will be told that you should charge for your services what your overhead and expected wages and profit dictate - not what other people dictate whether those other people are contractors, hackers or customers.

The regulated trades are regulated for one and only one reason. SAFETY to the consumer. NOT to keep lowballers at bay.

Painting is not a regulated trade. Not where I come from. I have the few regulations that are required in my market. 2 mill liability insur, workers' comp and payroll taxes etc. they all raise my prices.

If someone takes a job from me because of lowballing, so be it. That person will become a potential employee if they are good workers.

If everyone charged the same or more than I, then who will I hire?

The Electrical Authority or the Building Inspector is not comming after me. No safety issues here (there are a few exceptions like lead, aspestos, fall arrest etc). But it's only paint.

No more regulations needed. It only raises prices and that raise does not go into my pocket nor does it keep lowballers at bay. It only makes lowballers lower lowballers and every industry needs them. Otherwise we all would be making millions(really nothing because no one could afford to hire us).

So my take is if too many people are lowballing you, then you need to take a look at your expenses.

Thanx for reading my retardedly(is that a word?) long reply.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Nice Ardee.

If a price is lower than yours because the dude doesn't have some of basics in place like liability insurance, workers comp...you can label "lowballer". (like you said ...no licence required here)

If the other quote is lower than yours and those 'are' in place....isn't that called "capitalism"?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Ardee said:


> The Electrical Authority or the Building Inspector is not comming after me. No safety issues here (there are a few exceptions like lead, aspestos, fall arrest etc). But it's only paint.
> 
> You really think electricians have way more issues than... let's say commercial painters?
> Fall arrest and safety training is not "a few exceptions"
> ...


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

After reading all of these posts, you'd think that the lowballers would get to thinking something like...

"Well, let me see...I'm a lowballer and the higher priced guy is still in business and has nice trucks, etc...MAYBE I should just charge an amount CLOSER to what HIS number is and I won't be considered a lowballer by anyone! I'll also have money to buy nice things!"

Now that sounds like a plan...lol.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Problem is Harry they have no clue how to price a job. I took a young entrepreneurial carpenter to school today about what pros charge in our area. He was off quite a bit on his hourly rates.  

Normally I would have been mad he got the job on the deck he was installing, but I was feeling good, and figured I could start reforming them one lowballer at a time.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Maybe your a High Baller


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## CPFSam (Nov 8, 2010)

New company policy here. We guarantee the lowest price. We get 50% up front, balance paid at end of job. All cash, no checks, no credit cards.

For all those consumers you get the best job and guaranteed lowest price, RIGHT HERE BABY. Cash is king!


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Problem is Harry they have no clue how to price a job. I took a young entrepreneurial carpenter to school today about what pros charge in our area. He was off quite a bit on his hourly rates.
> 
> Normally I would have been mad he got the job on the deck he was installing, but I was feeling good, and figured I could start reforming them one lowballer at a time.


Yeah, I have a good handle on who knows their prices 

Ok then...here's an easy fix..

Lowballers? Raise your prices 30 percent! lol

That should put them in the ballgame, eh?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Problem is Harry they have no clue how to price a job. I took a young entrepreneurial carpenter to school today about what pros charge in our area. He was off quite a bit on his hourly rates.
> 
> Normally I would have been mad he got the job on the deck he was installing, but I was feeling good, and figured I could start reforming them one lowballer at a time.


Well, me and a bunch of guys who "did time" together on numerous paint boards have been doing the "one at a time" thing for 13 plus years, lol.

Problem comes in when a lowballer wears his idiotic pricing as a badge of whatever.


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## Ardee (Jun 9, 2008)

George Z said:


> Ardee said:
> 
> 
> > The Electrical Authority or the Building Inspector is not comming after me. No safety issues here (there are a few exceptions like lead, aspestos, fall arrest etc). But it's only paint.
> ...


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## mblosik (Jan 3, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Man, you sure are a "cup is half empty" kind of guy :jester: You should look at it as 22 customers that wont hire lowballers anymore. :thumbsup:


wow--have all paint store managers been trained to say this? every rep and manager (who give the "pro" franchises great deals that help to make us little guys uncompetitive) says this to me: "well, you just gained another client." what, in two or three years????? that really helps now. thanks for supporting those nationwide scumsucking, lead-generating, business-taking, know-nothing, took one class on painting and is now a painting contractor, subs out all jobs to illegal immigrant a-holes. thanks; this mentality is so great!!!!!!!!!!


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

CPFSam said:


> Painting Contractors should have a county licensining certificate of competency. First you would have to turn in copy of drivers license, credit report and resume, taxes, w2s showing 3 years in directly related industry. It would cost about 200 bux to apply for the exam. Once approved you would have to invest in about 500 bux worth of books. The P & D of America book. Workers comp law book, accounting book and a safety guideline book. The exam is 8 hours and based on information from all of these publications. It is an open book exam. The exam to be composed by someone like Block and Accosiates. The county construction board hosts the exams for painters, plumbers,electricians,etc.
> After passing with 75% you get the county certificate of competency. All contractors must have on or in violation. The license number you get must be on all truck signs advertisements, etc.
> Each neighboring county usually reciprocates the neighboring license and the contractor pays a maybe 200 fee to extend license to neighboring counties.
> 
> This my freinds will eliminate contractors working illigally and contractors working for wages. Lowballing would drop considerably and your charges will be that of a true business owner. Those too stupid to pass the exam or fullfill qualifications will just throw in the towel and give up.


Ah, another 'government assistance' program.........for painters. In the hopes of eliminating competition, thus artificially inflating the price.

I have no problem with 'licensing' in critical trades, i.e. medical, electrical, etc., but 'painting'? Puleeeeeze.

Next there will be a demand for licensing of thrift shops because they sell stuff too cheap. 

Let's just have the government as overseer of 'everything', as the citizenry is too stupid to take care of itself. Actually, I think they did that in the Soviet Union.

I prefer the freedom to be stupid.........that's why I moved out of mom and dad's a long time ago.

"..People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both...". Benjamin Franklin


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

kerk said:


> Ah, another 'government assistance' program.........for painters. In the hopes of eliminating competition, thus artificially inflating the price.
> 
> I have no problem with 'licensing' in critical trades, i.e. medical, electrical, etc., but 'painting'? Puleeeeeze.
> 
> ...


Does that mean you are not a licensed contractor?  Its been a while since I worked in Florida, but I thought they do require licensing for any contractor? As far as I know, Thrift stores just like any other stores or businesses do have certain licensing requirements too.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

This "we are not as important as the plumbers and electricians" crap
is pathetic. 
Did you notice this is *Paint*talk?
Visit Plumbertalk and put your trade down over there. Or buy a screwdriver.
Some, if not many here have the obligation to raise the bar and standards of this trade.
How do you expect the general public to take you seriously 
when you think and keep advertising how worthless you are.

We are a legitimate Painting Contractor.
We have great painters and apprentices working for us and being told daily, that this is a great trade.
If some regulations will weed lowballers out, I have no problem with that.
Defenders of Capitalism above may note that lowballers also have 
the same opportunity to be legitimate and play by the same rules.



> I prefer the freedom to be stupid...


so take the opportunity to be smart


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

George Z said:


> This "we are not as important as the plumbers and electricians" crap
> is pathetic.


Agree! I don't think building codes or trade classifications are as important as the fact we are running a business in the service industry, which has regulations, just like any other group of professionals.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George Z said:


> This "we are not as important as the plumbers and electricians" crap
> is pathetic.
> Did you notice this is *Paint*talk?
> Visit Plumbertalk and put your trade down over there. Or buy a screwdriver.
> ...


Concur.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

I 2nd the motion. I concur that you concur


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

George Z said:


> Some, if not many here have the obligation to raise the bar and standards of this trade.
> How do you expect the general public to take you seriously
> when you think and keep advertising how worthless you are.


 Excellent point George. This is something I have been telling contractors my entire career. "We" teach people how to treat us and what we are worth. Contractors are quick to blame the customer or the general public for a lack of success, but in my experience the problem is more with the "contractors" setting the bar so low.
This is also the problem I have with certain types of marketing in this business. I know some here are fans of what I call, for lack of a better word, "gimmicks"- like "win a free paint job", "paint one room- get one free", and discounts and coupons. I understand about selling and marketing, but I think many times these types of ideas minimize and detract from the value of what we do. I can't remember seeing an ad for an electrician or plumber offering some free services or coupons-maybe a seniors discount. No successful plumber I know is having a raffle for a free toilet for "liking" them on Facebook. At least not in my area. I know some are fans of this type of approach and claim to have the positive results to back it up and I give them credit if it is working for them, I just don't think it helps the pricing in the industry. We are teaching people that the job isn't really worth what was quoted because with the "coupon" it is now 10% less. I understand this approach when selling a product, but not as much when selling a service. I think we have to be very careful in our marketing & sales, that in a quest to grow and secure more work we aren't damaging the price structure in the industry and sending people the wrong message that in the end will come back to haunt us.. I don't know about anyone else here, but in the instances that I have given a customer a "special deal" for whatever reason, the materials still cost the same, the labor still costs the same, the overhead remained the same-only the profit was less-oh no,maybe I was lowballing!!!


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Woodland said:


> Does that mean you are not a licensed contractor?  Its been a while since I worked in Florida, but I thought they do require licensing for any contractor? As far as I know, Thrift stores just like any other stores or businesses do have certain licensing requirements too.


No, I'm not a licensed contractor. I don't need to be for what I do, and I don't do anything that requires a state license, except drive.

And yes, Florida (which was just ranked the 3rd best state in the nation to do business, by CEO Magazine) doesn't require anything that makes motion be licensed.

At the bottom of the list is California, where you must be licensed to wake up in the morning. You know, the state that should shortly collapse under it's own weight.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Cliff, one thing to consider is that the majority of businesses using marketing gimmicks, coupons, giveaways and the like are still twice as high priced as most other companies. I absolutely see your point though. As far as I knew from seeing countless ads, carpet cleaning was worth about $50/room. Imagine my chagrin when four rooms came out to nearly $700. :jester:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

kerk said:


> No, I'm not a licensed contractor. I don't need to be for what I do, and I don't do anything that requires a state license, except drive.
> 
> And yes, Florida (which was just ranked the 3rd best state in the nation to do business, by CEO Magazine) doesn't require anything that makes motion be licensed.
> 
> At the bottom of the list is California, where you must be licensed to wake up in the morning. You know, the state that should shortly collapse under it's own weight.


Very, very, very good points. Your logic should be seen as common sense. But I get the feeling most here on PT will find a way to dog it. Nice post - it's true.:thumbsup:


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Gee guys, hate to burst any bubbles you might have, or cause a high horse to stumble, but I do a fair amount of painting, and spent 17 years behind the counter and in the field selling, and like it or not, painting ain't rocket science........George Z. And it doesn't come close to requiring the education of an electrician or general contractor.

(And why plumbers have to be licensed, is beyond me, except that Caesar wanted part of their action) 

And fuss all you want, any desire by painting contractors to regulate the industry with 'law', is just an attempt to limit competition, and be able to raise your price, under the guise of 'benefiting the public'.

How noble. :yawn:

If you do have "..great painters, and great apprentices..." working for you, then SELL IT! Don't run home to mommy government pouting about your boo boo.

_"..so take the opportunity to be smart.."._

And how is that, George Z? By apparently not being able to compete and sell 'my' product, and longing for my mommy in the county seat, or the state capital to rescue me from those bad, bad people who are willing to work for less than me?

I don't call it smart......I call it 'cry baby'.

Tell you what, George Z, Let's just fantasize for a moment.

Maybe we could just do away with having to bid against the competition! Yeah, that's the ticket! We can just have the gubment put painters in a rotation, and when a job comes up, if it's your turn, 'you' get the job........no bidding necessary. You are guaranteed the job.......when it comes up.

Great idea, eh! But of course, you can only 'charge' what the gubment says you can........but hey, life will be so much simpler not having to worry about those 'low ballers'. :yes:

But, of course, people will probably eventually start to whine to the gubment about the cost of having their house painted, so in order to keep the sheep happy, the gubment will lower the price you can charge. And what are you gonna do? Nothing. 

And then, of course, now that your under the gubment thumb, they might get the idea to pass another regulation to put painters in a 'hardship case' rotation, where you have to do a couple 'freebies' a year, or lose your highly valued 'gubment license'. 

Hmmm.

But, if you stick with it and hang in there with gubment looking after, maybe, just maybe, one day you'll be, by law, working for low ball prices.

Yeah buddy, that would be good regulation...........Soviet style. 

Sounds like your cup of tea, George Z. 

Smart.

Anyway, I tire of the 'Somebody should do something' crowd.......always crying for more laws and regulations, as they are under the 'short sighted illusion' that it is a good thing for them, or just a bad thing for someone else. And 'that' short sightedness doesn't see the 'inch by inch', creeping incrementalism of government controlling more and more of your life.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

Oh, and wake up George Z..........'Certificates of competency' won't eliminate the 'low ballers'. It may temporarily reduce their number, but they will still be around. But now they will be 'certified' low ballers.

Shucks, and then you'll be right back where you started.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I miss LastCraftsman!


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Comrade Kerk, 
the proletariat has mostly nothing to fear from the petite bourgeoisie. 
Exploitation of the working class requires some surplus value at work,
or at least some knowledge of profit margins.
It doesn't require much formal education to be a painter,
but surely some business education, formal or otherwise is a must to be a good contractor.
What is the ranting about anyway?
If you think as a painter you are not worth much, you are right.
If you think you are, you are right again.

The pecking order does not start with the electricians.
They are there somewhere in the mix of new construction, if you are into that kind of thing.


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## paint2ski (Jan 20, 2011)

Blah Blah


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Very, very, very good points. Your logic should be seen as common sense. But I get the feeling most here on PT will find a way to dog it. Nice post - it's true.:thumbsup:


Are you just agreeing with him because your business model would be destroyed when you couldn't sub out to bottom feeders, and illegals? :jester:

I have a close family member who complains to no end about everything the government does to destroy business, and is a staunch "conservative". 

Yet he employees over 50 illegals and gets government handouts. <-- Farmer. 

The hypocrisy causes me the brain pain.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Hey Bill, its turning political. Might want to jump in while you can....


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## Ardee (Jun 9, 2008)

*lowballers or scapegoats*

Lets put this thread in perspective. Lowballers have been around when my great uncles brought this business to Ontario over a hundred years ago when there was little Graberment and virtualy zero regulations. 

I'm third generation and an old fart with regulations turning me away from the painting and into the office - always doing something for regulations and rules. I accept all the "red tape" that comes with todays business but be not fooled. Lowballers wil be around for ever and ever. Amen.

Not a single or a whateverzillion regulations will stop that.

It's just the way it is. 

Nothing to do with a painter being less than another tradesperson or less regulated are less inteligent. Many Painters I know have univesary degrees and some may do searches on PT to see the brains floating around here. 

Lowballers have always existed and will continue to exist. More regulations will only create more of them and make the Graberment grab more money out of my pocket- not the lowballers.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

For some reason my radar blipped on this thread tonight (musta been George's words of _Comrade, proletariat, bourgeoisie, _ and _ working class._







)

Face it, 90% of us when we started were "lowballers" in someone's eye. Let's not get too high up on that horse of ours.

We can argue the minutae ad nauseum. But I think Araon put what many think in the simplest terms:



> There has always been lowballers (loosely used term for anyone cheaper than you) since the dawn of time.Some do it intentionally,some don't. Get over it and move on to your next potential customer.


It's a fool's mission that tries to "fix" something that can't be fixed. Find your own damn niche. And regulations won't do squat (And you all thought I was a flaming lib-er-al  )


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

daArch said:


> It's a fool's mission that tries to "fix" something that can't be fixed. )


Nope Bill, have to disagree....I feel we're close....few more pages and we'll get it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Nope Bill, have to disagree....I feel we're close....few more pages and we'll get it.


now THAT'S funny !!!

:thumbup: :thumbsup: :notworthy:


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

CliffK said:


> Excellent point George. This is something I have been telling contractors my entire career. "We" teach people how to treat us and what we are worth. Contractors are quick to blame the customer or the general public for a lack of success, but in my experience the problem is more with the "contractors" setting the bar so low.
> This is also the problem I have with certain types of marketing in this business. I know some here are fans of what I call, for lack of a better word, "gimmicks"- like "win a free paint job", "paint one room- get one free", and discounts and coupons. I understand about selling and marketing, but I think many times these types of ideas minimize and detract from the value of what we do. I can't remember seeing an ad for an electrician or plumber offering some free services or coupons-maybe a seniors discount. No successful plumber I know is having a raffle for a free toilet for "liking" them on Facebook. At least not in my area. I know some are fans of this type of approach and claim to have the positive results to back it up and I give them credit if it is working for them, I just don't think it helps the pricing in the industry. We are teaching people that the job isn't really worth what was quoted because with the "coupon" it is now 10% less. I understand this approach when selling a product, but not as much when selling a service. I think we have to be very careful in our marketing & sales, that in a quest to grow and secure more work we aren't damaging the price structure in the industry and sending people the wrong message that in the end will come back to haunt us.. I don't know about anyone else here, but in the instances that I have given a customer a "special deal" for whatever reason, the materials still cost the same, the labor still costs the same, the overhead remained the same-only the profit was less-oh no,maybe I was lowballing!!!


You totally nailed it! :yes:


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

I lived in a state in Australia where legislation was introduced to licences painters. Some good results were it encouraged professional development as you had to have a certificate III in painting & decorating to operate a business. Another benefit was that it was compulsory to do a small business course before operating. 

I was once a "low baller" when I was a young fellow, and I was frustrated not making any money. The problem was I needed training. I really benefited from doing the compulsory business course, this assisted me in understanding cash flow and profit.

Perhaps when someone puts a really low quote in, let them know how much lower they were to you and ask if they need a hand quoting. You may find it is some poor punter that is still learning how to quote. 

Does the PDCA do this type of training?


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Just had a thought... I heard it said once that you can view yourself as a painter or you can view your self as a business person.... painting is your product.

I hold a great deal of pride in being a painter, I love this trade but I am a lousy business person. So I guess teaching the trade works best for me.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

I agree with many of you. To add my perspective---try dealing with low ballers in the 'faux ' world. Many times a customer hasn't a clue how bad their job turned out, they just know it was done cheap by a nice little girl with a sponge! I have a loyal clientele and I do educate them that 'faux' is a lot more than swooshing a sponge around. Too bad I can't reach the masses.

I state my price, if they don't go for it, I will offer a less time consuming option for a lesser cost. If they don't go for that, I walk away.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

pacificpainters.com said:


> I lived in a state in Australia where legislation was introduced to licences painters. Some good results were it encouraged professional development as you had to have a certificate III in painting & decorating to operate a business. Another benefit was that it was compulsory to do a small business course before operating.
> 
> I was once a "low baller" when I was a young fellow, and I was frustrated not making any money. The problem was I needed training. I really benefited from doing the compulsory business course, this assisted me in understanding cash flow and profit.
> 
> ...


Australia..........isn't that kind of like California?

"..Toy guns will have to be licensed in Queensland under new firearms laws..".

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/br...ew-firearms-laws/story-e6frf7jx-1225900889228

Oh brother.........the nanny cometh.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

*I Feel the love brother*



kerk said:


> Australia..........isn't that kind of like California?
> 
> "..Toy guns will have to be licensed in Queensland under new firearms laws..".
> 
> ...


Not sure what is happening in California but from the land of down under... all is gooood!!!


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

page 9. This has been a good thread to read


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I lost 2 jobs this week to lowballers. 
Its a cryin shame when the lowballers lowball a lowballer


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Looked at dorm rooms today. Close to 50 units. Each about 650sq ft(floor) . Guy was thinking he would like to pay about 250 bucks each to have them painted..... Waste of gas. But yet again proves there is a market for the lb' ers.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Different Strokes said:


> Looked at dorm rooms today. Close to 50 units. Each about 650sq ft(floor) . Guy was thinking he would like to pay about 250 bucks each to have them painted..... Waste of gas. But yet again proves there is a market for the lb' ers.


Not sure from your post whether you gave him a price or not, but if you didn't, why not, since you made the trip?

Don't say 'no' to 'any' job..........let 'your price' say no. Why not? 

A job look scary, nasty, fugly? You don't really want it? No problem, figure up a quote.............then 'double it'! Price too high? Who cares, you didn't want it anyway...........at least at a normal price. And who knows, your doubled quote may be the best price..........'or' the only price.

Based on your post......"..He said he would like..". So? 

Actually, I bet he would *'really like'* someone to do it for free.

Point being, I really don't care what someone would 'like' to pay. That's kind of like posting something for sale on Craigslist, with a price, and then saying 'willing to negotiate'............Huh? :blink:

That means their stated price means nothing............just like his 'I'd like' means nothing. Personally, 'I'd like' you too send me $300 bucks, but I'm willing to settle for $100. (PM me for address)

How's that going to work out for me?

He's going to get it done for the best price he can get. So what the heck, bid it.

In closing, I really hope he said 'I'd like'. Because if he didn't, I just wasted a lot of time, and am boring a lot of people.


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Also, while we're on the subject, in the 'Retail' industry.........does anyone know if 'Target' and 'Walmart' are considered 'low ballers'?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

kerk said:


> Also, while we're on the subject, in the 'Retail' industry.........does anyone know if 'Target' and 'Walmart' are considered 'low ballers'?


No, but comparing either to grab-astic, uniformed, Sandford and Son vehicle driving, trade guys that sell on price is not really a comparison one can make. I see where you are going though... by definition of price selling, Walmart could fit the bill. Because they are organized, market well, legit, and efficient, they are in a different league.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> No, but comparing either to grab-astic, uniformed, Sandford and Son vehicle driving, trade guys that sell on price is not really a comparison one can make. I see where you are going though... by definition of price selling, Walmart could fit the bill. Because they are organized, market well, legit, and efficient, they are in a different league.


If you wanted to say Walmart & Target are lowballers...you could say that Ebay, Craigslist and Overstock ( to name a few ) lowball them.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> If you wanted to say Walmart & Target are lowballers...you could say that Ebay, Craigslist and Overstock ( to name a few ) lowball them.


And then put Groupon in the mix. They beat all and turn otherwise legit contractors into lowballers while price ruining market segments.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

there are plenty of shady licensed contractors.

regulations are nothing more than a tax.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I don't know why all of you guys (grown ass men) are on here crying about low ballers .........if your losing work to somebody else then you need to look at yourself FIRST .........maybe your prices are to high!!...........maybe your not very efficient!!.........maybe you cant run a crew!!......maybe your a book taught painter !!!....maybe the lowballer doesn't have those problems!!!........maybe the lowballer actually knows how to paint !!...........so in the end who's really to blame??...........you want to cry about something cry about ''HACKS'' but dont cry about getting out bid thats just retarded and one of those things that happens in LIFE i mean wtf you think its your god givin right to win every bid??? who the hell are you?? ...........its a dog eat dog world were the better man ALWAYS wins so step your game up or get a job at walmart or whatever else you have in your area .............me personally i like losing a bid cause it pisses me off and puts a fire under my ass an ill be damned if its gonna happen twice in a row.....to me its nothing more then a gut check..lower price, increase production.......know your tools....crush the competetion and if thats low balling then thats ME and proud of it :thumbsup:


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> No, but comparing either to grab-astic, uniformed, Sandford and Son vehicle driving, trade guys that sell on price is not really a comparison one can make. I see where you are going though... by definition of price selling, Walmart could fit the bill. Because they are organized, market well, legit, and efficient, they are in a different league.


Ooops, my mistake then......I thought it was just a 'price' thing.

I didn't realize that it was necessary to be ignorant, in uniform, 'and' drive an old van, to be a 'low baller'.

Also, don't you have to 'force' people to hire you, to really be considered a 'low baller'? Or can they be hired by people of their own free will?

If so, then there should be a law to 'force' people, against their 'own free will', to hire 'non low ballers', eh? 

(You know, the 'somebody should do something' thing)


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## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> I don't know why all of you guys (grown ass men) are on here crying about low ballers .........if your losing work to somebody else then you need to look at yourself FIRST .........maybe your prices are to high!!...........maybe your not very efficient!!.........maybe you cant run a crew!!......maybe your a book taught painter !!!....maybe the lowballer doesn't have those problems!!!........maybe the lowballer actually knows how to paint !!...........so in the end who's really to blame??...........you want to cry about something cry about ''HACKS'' but dont cry about getting out bid thats just retarded and one of those things that happens in LIFE i mean wtf you think its your god givin right to win every bid??? who the hell are you?? ...........its a dog eat dog world were the better man ALWAYS wins so step your game up or get a job at walmart or whatever else you have in your area .............me personally i like losing a bid cause it pisses me off and puts a fire under my ass an ill be damned if its gonna happen twice in a row.....to me its nothing more then a gut check..lower price, increase production.......know your tools....crush the competetion and if thats low balling then thats ME and proud of it :thumbsup:


:thumbsup:

Yup, it appears there are many here who benefit, as consumers, from deals and low prices, yet want to whine about the same occurring in their industry.

Competition is tough, in all aspects, that's the FREE MARKET! And those who can't compete, and want mommy government to save them, need to find another profession. 

I prefer the freedom to buy cheap, and make mistakes...........but there are many who seem to prefer slow bondage.

"..My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government...". Thomas Jefferson


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

kerk said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Yup, it appears there are many here who benefit, as consumers, from deals and low prices, yet want to whine about the same occurring in their industry.


 
trust me i know their type............i bet the guys in here cryin are also the same ones who drive 2 miles down the road to save .05 on a gallon of gasoline........i just dont get them sometimes


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Very true. It's funny how the original PT crew has not responded to your recent posts. Had it been from someone that could not fight back they would be on it like a pack of dogs. Good points dude. :thumbsup:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

KLaw said:


> Very true. It's funny how the original PT crew has not responded to your recent posts. Had it been from someone that could not fight back they would be on it like a pack of dogs. Good points dude. :thumbsup:


It is Saturday, they're probably all working...I just got home from work myself.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

I try to set my biz up where I can take most w/e's off. Not there yet but gettin' there.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

lets say you have 20 painters now mathematically a certain percentage are gonna low ball the rest so say you got rid of them.......7 in all so now your left with 13 painters and mathematically a certain percentage of them are gonna low ball the rest so say you got rid of them as well......9 this time so now your left with 4 painters and mathematically a certain percentage are gonna low ball the rest so say you got rid of them yet again........3.........so now your left with 1 (the goverment)


I don't know about you but ''1'' doesn't sit well with me, i like a choice thank you very much........




oh and BTW how many of you crybabies got the flat screens that burn out in 2-3 yrs but have no problem gettin a new one cause theyre cheap???? lol


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> It is Saturday, they're probably all working...I just got home from work myself.


 i made my money today as well [email protected] 8:30am worked till around 1:00 ..........sucks you had to work 8 hours


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NCpaint owns a paint store so i hope he has sense enough to stay out of this converstion.......lowballin is what keeps guys like him a float


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> NCpaint owns a paint store so i hope he has sense enough to stay out of this converstion.......lowballin is what keeps guys like him a float


Why? I get lowballed all the time. It happens, and you move on. No biggie.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

You guys are focusing on price = lowball, the real issue is when lowballing is the result of ignorance or cheating. I think most new contractors lowball at first from ignorance and some do it through misuse of 1099, evading taxes, etc. 

Look at how many classify profit here, that is ignorance. Not accounting for depreciation, owner salarly, etc is ignorance.

Misuse of 1099 and tax evasion is just criminal activity.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> NCpaint owns a paint store so i hope he has sense enough to stay out of this converstion.......lowballin is what keeps guys like him a float


Ole, did you work out in the sun all day? What gives man. Besides, "Ben Moore" and "Low" don't go in the same sentence.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Different Strokes said:


> Ole, did you work out in the sun all day? What gives man. Besides, "Ben Moore" and "Low" don't go in the same sentence.


Exactly, I was just gonna say...aren't too many low balling guys out there buying $60 cans of paint. The "lowballers" aren't keeping me in business at all. In fact, they're just as detrimental to my business as they are to legitimate contractors.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> You guys are focusing on price = lowball, the real issue is when lowballing is the result of ignorance or cheating. I think most new contractors lowball at first from ignorance and some do it through misuse of 1099, evading taxes, etc.
> 
> Look at how many classify profit here, that is ignorance. Not accounting for depreciation, owner salarly, etc is ignorance.
> 
> Misuse of 1099 and tax evasion is just criminal activity.


I think the area between lowball and hack is getting lumped together.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Very true. It's funny how the original PT crew has not responded to your recent posts. Had it been from someone that could not fight back they would be on it like a pack of dogs. Good points dude. :thumbsup:


:blink:
He only posted it an hour ago, give it time!
Seriously, I don't get where you are coming from with that?




DeanV said:


> You guys are focusing on price = lowball, the real issue is when lowballing is the result of ignorance or cheating. I think most new contractors lowball at first from ignorance and some do it through misuse of 1099, evading taxes, etc.
> 
> Look at how many classify profit here, that is ignorance. Not accounting for depreciation, owner salarly, etc is ignorance.
> 
> Misuse of 1099 and tax evasion is just criminal activity.


Exactly, how many guys have we seen come to this forum, read the wealth of information, got their "house in order", raised their prices and report back on how well they are doing.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

> KLaw said:
> 
> 
> > Very true. It's funny how the original PT crew has not responded to your recent posts. Had it been from someone that could not fight back they would be on it like a pack of dogs. Good points dude.
> ...


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

DeanV said:


> You guys are focusing on price = lowball, the real issue is when lowballing is the result of ignorance or cheating. I think most new contractors lowball at first from ignorance and some do it through misuse of 1099, evading taxes, etc.
> 
> Look at how many classify profit here, that is ignorance. Not accounting for depreciation, owner salarly, etc is ignorance.
> 
> Misuse of 1099 and tax evasion is just criminal activity.


ahhhh the ever expanding definition of ''low baller'' .......i mean really if your gonna include stuff like taxes, salary etc etc why not just use something that already exists an that everybodys familiar with ............PROFFESSIONAL PAINTING CONTRACTOR and NON PROFFESIONAL PAINTING CONTRACTOR ??? ............


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

"Oops lost another bid, lower price even more try even harder" lol


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

George Z said:


> "Oops lost another bid, lower price even more try even harder" lol


I'm trying to get my pricing down to zero. I'll pay to work if it means I'm closing sales.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm trying to get my pricing down to zero. I'll pay to work if it means I'm closing sales.


So, make it up on volume.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Plus, if the homeowner buys the paint, I can just show up and work. I already have all my own tools, and because my pricing is so good, I don't have to advertise. That's my plan for yanking all you big dog contractors right out of your fancy estimating vehicles, polos and offices. Boogity boogity boogity!

Every ocean needs it's bottom feeders and the tides are turning! Low is the new high!


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Quick George Z...........''thank'' vermont painter,


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I will be spending the rest of the night trying to find a suitable photo of a mop for a new avatar picture!


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Ole, this is the thing that gets me:



> its a dog eat dog world were the better man ALWAYS wins


How do you describe "wins"



> its a dog eat dog world


For you maybe. I am just enjoying the ride. 
If we ever close more than 50% we will call this a problem 
and call an emergency meeting.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I will be spending the rest of the night trying to find a suitable photo of a mop for a new avatar picture!


You can't clean everything.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

A lower price does not always mean a lowballer. A lower price does not bother me unless it is so low that it should be a red flag to even the clueless and I think a lot seem to to think that if they did not get the job then they got lowballed. There will always be a lower price, sell what you bring to the equation and the rest is out of your hands. I know a PC that his MO is to down talk the competition, my style is instead point out my strengths and try and show what I will bring to the project. 

Like George said it is a old discussion and that is why I have stayed out of it.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> A lower price does not salways mean a lowballer. A lower price does not bother me unless it is so low that it should be a red flag to even the clueless and I think a lot seem to to think that if they did not get the job then they got lowballed. There will always be a lower price, sell what you bring to the equation and the rest is out of your hands. I know a PC that his MO is to down talk the competition, my style is instead point out my strengths and try and show what I will bring to the project.
> 
> Like George said it is a old discussion and that is why I have stayed out of it.


Good post:thumbsup:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

George Z said:


> Ole, this is the thing that gets me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


George its hard for me to explain what i mean cause im the best theres ever been an what i do has no precident to reflect back on ......kind of like comparing the X-1 to something immediatly after it broke the sound barrier :blink:............


''on the first day god created a brush.........the 2nd day he created ME to use it''

Ole34 5/14/11 9:00 pm


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Different Strokes said:


> Good post:thumbsup:


 
thats why hes MODERATOR and we get MODERATED


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wise is God.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Ole - have any "employee's"?

2000 hours per year, W-2, benefits - employees?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> George its hard for me to explain what i mean cause im the best theres ever been an what i do has no precident to reflect back on ......kind of like comparing the X-1 to something immediatly after it broke the sound barrier :blink:............
> 
> 
> ''on the first day god created a brush.........the 2nd day he created ME to use it''
> ...


That explains it.
Did He create a Purdy or a Corona? 
Now I understand everything :notworthy:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NEPS.US said:


> Ole - have any "employee's"?
> 
> 2000 hours per year, W-2, benefits - employees?


 
me and my fiance ........if i need help ill bring somebody in for a few days or maybe a week .....i pay my taxes , have insurance and now mind your own business..........


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Ole34 said:


> me and my fiance ........if i need help ill bring somebody in for a few days or maybe a week .....i pay my taxes , have insurance and now mind your own business..........


Thank you. 

This does not sound anything like the business model of a low baller. I wish you all the success in the world!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> thats why hes MODERATOR and we get MODERATED


....


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> ....


So thats why Arch only posts headshots.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Why is it that soooooo many funny internet pics look like daArch??


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

DeanV said:


> Why is it that soooooo many funny internet pics look like daArch??


 
maybe he has a ''side gig'' that we dont know about ??? ...............:whistling2:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> Why is it that soooooo many funny internet pics look like daArch??


What worries me more is that Sean always seems to have a never ending supply of them.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

This thread is freakin awesome. Just when I thought it had died, back to life with more awesomeness.


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

We just finished painting and small plaster repairs on courthouse for the county bid the job 6000 less than the next lowest bid but had 13000 in extras. I priced the extras at 2.5x normal rate and nobody questioned me so it was very profitable. You need to know going in if you can get away with this sort of price gouging this comes with experience and we as contractors need to know when to extract the maximum as we owe it to our familys and employees to make huge profits so we can grow our business.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

blackwell said:


> We just finished painting and small plaster repairs on courthouse for the county bid the job 6000 less than the next lowest bid but had 13000 in extras. I priced the extras at 2.5x normal rate and nobody questioned me so it was very profitable. You need to know going in if you can get away with this sort of price gouging this comes with experience and we as contractors need to know when to extract the maximum as we owe it to our familys and employees to make huge profits so we can grow our business.



I might be too dumb and I've no clue what you meant at all....:no:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

AztecPainting said:


> I might be too dumb and I've no clue what you meant at all....:no:


It means he bid the original scope for a loss, in order to win the project, because he knew the job would be rich in change orders.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

AztecPainting said:


> I might be too dumb and I've no clue what you meant at all....:no:


I think what he was saying is he is one of the smart guys out there where they go in being the lowest and then slam the customer with extras. 

Pat


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Some would argue that this is good business while others would argue that it is unethical.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Some would argue that this is good business while others would argue that it is unethical.


Yep, some of my favorite company's business models are the Carpet Cleaning business. I love getting those "We will clean 5 rooms for $19.95" coupons. 

Pat


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> It means he bid the original scope for a loss, in order to win the project, because he knew the job would be rich in change orders.


I thought that's what he meant, but at the same time I wasn't 100% sure if he meant that as a joke or not? 

Well, good for you blackwell!


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

Unethical? You can't be serious. Have you ever bid a prevailing wage job.Here in Ohio it states right in the contract that additional work will be at 2x the bid price so 2.5x is not bad just a little extra taste of milk and honey. How do you explain to your family that your barely above water when you can rake in income with a little mental effort.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

How do you know?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

blackwell said:


> Unethical? You can't be serious. Have you ever bid a prevailing wage job.Here in Ohio it states right in the contract that additional work will be at 2x the bid price so 2.5x is not bad just a little extra taste of milk and honey. How do you explain to your family that your barely above water when you can rake in income with a little mental effort.


I'm not arguing the amount you charge for the change orders. I have issue with contractors that knowingly under bid a project by a extreme amount to secure the work and then knowingly plan to make up their margins with change orders. 

I guess it is all part of the business, but it is a very slippery slope.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Seems like a business model that wouldn't generate too many repeat customers


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

best way to avoid it is to work off of referals. Customers that seach the paper or craigslist are always going to go with the lowball number.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

That is why it is the contractors job to educate the customer why they cost more. Intead of answering" why are you more?" Answer, "Why are they so cheap?" "What are they leaving out?" "They need to make a profit so they have to cut corners and rip you off" then explain various ways like cheaper products, less prep, no insurance, day laborers, ect.
Bring photo's of "low ball" butcher jobs that you have had to repair.
If you still do not get the job, so be it.
I recently posted about an exterior I did not get. It went to a low baller. I was called in to do the spraying of the Geneva Cabinets. My employees laughed at the other guys exterior work (he was not there at the time nor was the customer). He scraped and never feathered the edges let alone fill anything, left gaps between painted surfaces, applied paint to bare wood without priming.
While my men were spraying, this guy was working inside the house bragging about his skills (while his 1 helper worked in denim and did not seem to have a drop) and putting down my work.(I do not know his name or anything as he worked out of an unmarked van and I have never seen him at any PDCA event or trade show) I was not on the job site at the time. Finally one of my workers turned to the guy and said "Did you notice my boss walked right past you, to him you are a butcher, your no painter" he responded he has 25 years experience. My man said that was a shame because he works like a day laborer.
Sometimes, the customer is price driven only and nothing you do will get them to hire you. Let them hire the butchers.


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

I"m a good natured cat I don't much like bad mouthing the competition besides customer just thinks its sour grapes anyway better to just charge them extras. The secret is knowing when to use this valuable tool and when to leave this tool in the toolbox. Experience and an open mind go a long way in using this tool. I don't recommend this tool to the inexperienced or those that don't have the stomach to make big money as its not for everyone.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

The same could be said for honesty


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

In Demand said:


> The same could be said for honesty


Honesty is my favorite weapon.
I break it out daily and drop wisdom on the wretched.

Applied to my craft, honesty becomes a deadly sidewinder missle!


watchout!!!


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

My experience is that the dudes that claim to be honest and looking out for the customer are usually the fly by night station wagon bandits. Better to show some class and restraint and upcharge them most of them don't even know the difference. Sincerely James A. Blackwell


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

It lives

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

blackwell said:


> My experience is that the dudes that claim to be honest and looking out for the customer are usually the fly by night station wagon bandits. Better to show some class and restraint and upcharge them most of them don't even know the difference. Sincerely James A. Blackwell


 I can assure you I am no "Fly by night". I never claim honesty. I just tell the facts. Smart businessmen will always think of the customer. That breeds loyalty. But, when someone starts with "let me tell you the truth" I will usually check my wallet.
As for upcharging, that is wrong and misleading. That is like the $299 for 3 room guys. See my blog. I wrote all about that scam and the upcharges.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Actually I like when someone tries to give the vague quote and screw the HO on change orders. Then I can come in and point everything out and ask them questions about what they would like to do with this or that. I give a detailed proposal with all the work and materials outlined. 
If I am giving my quote before the crook then he really has no choice but to try to follow suit since I have already taken the time to educate the HO and point out the things they have overlooked. If i am after him then I get to point out all of the things he failed to mention and present the customer with my detailed proposal. 
I like being paid well for my services as much as anyone but I won't rip people off

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Christ, who let Blackwell in here?


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

He's a master painter.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

I have the greatest respect for painters (my primary work is electrical), and I'm not afraid to bring one in. Painters have one cross to bear, and it is that everyone who ever painted their bedroom thinks they're a painter. Likewise, every 'aw, shucks' ne'r-do-well thinks he can be a 'painter' just by grabbing a roller and tray.

My area had one guy running around, doing apartments and such for prices that wouldn't cover the cost of the cheapest paint. Well, he dent to prison (DUI), and defaulted on his storage locker. As my locker / shop was in the same complex, the owner asked me to open the locker.

Well, by golly .... what did we find? Well, it seems the guy also had a city job, and his locker was full of city property. Paint sprayer, buckets of paint, ladders, etc. His "business" was paid for with our tax dollars, as he stole from work. Looks like he'll be in prison a bit longer.

Folks need to appreciate that it just is not smart to enable / encourage a thief. A man who steals from me today will steal from you tomorrow. A man who steals will also lie and cheat. 

Of course, half the problem is the customer. Folks who go by price alone are almost 'lawful prey' for the incompetent and crooked "contractors." Let's go back to that guy who painted his bedroom for a moment.

The ordinary customer ought to be able to do simple math: a job that took them half a day (4 hrs. x $10/hr), 4 gallons of paint (4 x $25), and assorted brushes, trays, tarps, etc (an easy $50) ought to be able to figure that any price under $200 as something wrong with it. Allowing for prep work, priming, detail work, premiun materials - plus the costs of skilled labor and running a business - and the customer ought to be suspicious of any price under $600 for that simple job.

If the customer has any experience in running a business, then they KNOW these costs. If they're going to try to cheat reality, they deserve to lost their home to a workmans' comp claim.

Even the greediest of them ought to be able to recognize that it is in their interest that you stay in business, and are able to serve them again next year. If they can't, they're too stupid to be relied upon.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

$10 am hour ....... I wish I could pull in that kinda dough

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

You can never be a six figure income painter @$10 and hour.:jester:


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

Sure you can $1000.00 is six figures if you ignore that damn decimal point.

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk 2.0 Elite


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

How foolish of me.:stupid:


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

Why bother talking about lowballers? There will always be lowballers and there's nothing we can do about it. 

Suck it up!


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## blackwell (Mar 13, 2011)

"Christ, who let Blackwell in here? " Still sprouting the racist hate Semi Pro Wall Dude.


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## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

why are you guys picking on me


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