# Waterborne Impervo...first coat brushed



## vermontpainter




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## Wolfgang

Was that a brush stroke I saw at about the .07 mark?


Just kidding Scott. But I was digging the music.


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## vermontpainter

Wolfgang said:


> Was that a brush stroke I saw at about the .07 mark?
> 
> 
> Just kidding Scott. But I was digging the music.


No ac/dc on our jobsites. :no:


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## DeanV

Any doctoring of the paint and what brush?


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> Any doctoring of the paint and what brush?


Just a spoonful of Fluotrol and Chinex. With wb on these kind of profiles its actually more about technique than brush. If the technique is good, you can do it with a chip brush.


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## ROOMINADAY

Sure that wasn't done with a Paint Zoom? just kidding 

Looks like what "Custom" should look like!


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## Schmidt & Co.

vermontpainter said:


> No ac/dc on our jobsites. :no:


What, no more Rush 2112?


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## RH

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Paint and Hammer

Looks very nice!

Is that Advance?


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## vermontpainter

Paint and Hammer said:


> Looks very nice!
> 
> Is that Advance?


Waterborne Satin Impervo


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## Paint and Hammer

Interesting....we don't have that product.


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## ROOMINADAY

vermontpainter said:


> Waterborne Satin Impervo



What is the difference between the two products. Advance vs WB Impervo - is it a hybrid also?


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## vermontpainter

ROOMINADAY said:


> What is the difference between the two products. Advance vs WB Impervo - is it a hybrid also?


No, its a straight waterborne.


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## vermontpainter

It is this.


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## Paint and Hammer

They seem like very similar product characteristics. 

I'd like to try that stuff out.

Jeff....time to call some reps huh?


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## ROOMINADAY

Are their characteristics similar to Regal WB or Aura or in a class on it's own?


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## vermontpainter

ROOMINADAY said:


> Are their characteristics similar to Regal WB or Aura or in a class on it's own?


More like Regal Select than Aura. But kind of its own flavor. I should note that its not the most full bodied product, so good holdout on the primer is important to it, but we want that anyways for buttery flow.

Here is some more on it.


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## ROOMINADAY

Paint and Hammer said:


> They seem like very similar product characteristics.
> 
> I'd like to try that stuff out.
> 
> Jeff....time to call some reps huh?



Holy Crap - another one, I jjjuuusssstttt can't..... I am just now used to each product and when and where to apply it and it's all I use!:blink:


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## vermontpainter

ROOMINADAY said:


> Holy Crap - another one, I jjjuuusssstttt can't..... I am just now used to each product and when and where to apply it and it's all I use!:blink:


I have that same nightmare...I wake up with night terror that I have been using all the wrong products and tools all the time. 

Keeps me from ever settling on one thing.


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## daArch

OK, now let's see what you can do on a flat hollow core door.:whistling2:

I found that to be the REAL test with WB S.I. PWG gave me some tips and warnings, and he was right. Tough learning curve.


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## RH

Still looking for the magic bullet that lays out and hardens like oil, dries fairly quickly like water based, and sprays well out of a HVLP. Are we getting close?


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## daArch

every night that we dream


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## vermontpainter

daArch said:


> OK, now let's see what you can do on a flat hollow core door.:whistling2:
> 
> I found that to be the REAL test with WB S.I. PWG gave me some tips and warnings, and he was right. Tough learning curve.


I will scrupulously avoid any "how many paperhangers does it take to paint a cheap door" jokes, and I would probably do it like this guy:


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## Bender

vermontpainter said:


> No ac/dc on our jobsites. :no:


I concur. This should be in the new hire manual.

Looks great.
I thank the Lord I have brush skills. A blue or red sprayer does not a painter make.


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## ShineBrightPainting

I have been working with advance a lot lately. I have also worked with the impervo. I feel like the impervo dries a bit quicker and shows barely any brush strokes with good hiding ability. The advance takes longer to spread and apply trying to avoid runs, but when it does dry, it looks as if i sprayed it! The advance also seems to go on lighter and darkens as it dries, with the darker off whites that is( seems like a missed a spot, nope just drying that way)


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## vermontpainter

ShineBrightPainting said:


> I have been working with advance a lot lately. I have also worked with the impervo. I feel like the impervo dries a bit quicker and shows barely any brush strokes with good hiding ability. The advance takes longer to spread and apply trying to avoid runs, but when it does dry, it looks as if i sprayed it! The advance also seems to go on lighter and darkens as it dries, with the darker off whites that is( seems like a missed a spot, nope just drying that way)


SB

Resisting that temptation to fix what you think is a holiday, which causes you to create a nasty tack flash takes real control. 

Waterbornes don't have the open time (for the most part) that the old oil enamel formulations do/did, but they sure have alot of advantages going for them.


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## straight_lines

It also hurts your wrist to go back into WB imprevo.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> It also hurts your wrist to go back into WB imprevo.


Yup, like a ship running aground.


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## NACE

WB Satin Impervo is a waterborne styrenated acrylic with low shear viscosity rheology. It's VOC content went from 350 grams per liter to 150, and therfore has quicker dry time. This resulted is a softer finish with less leveling and harder brushing characteristics. It still however, is a great product and has excellent results despite it's being compromised by OTC. Rub the finish with Rotten Stone and WD40 or vegtable oil with a micor fiber or soft cotten cloth and you will see a finish that is truly hand rubbed.


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## daArch

NACE,

I really love the technical stuff, as I've always have wanted to know as much as my pea brain can absorb about the characteristics of architectural coatings.

HOWEVER, that same pea brain has NO IDEA what "styrenated" and "rheology" mean. Can you give a "Dummies" version

Also you said, "despite it's being compromised by OTC". Again the only thing this mental midget knows about OTC is "over the counter". Is that what you meant.

(BUT I do know what rotten stone is :thumbup

Now as to the parts I do understand. I found that for a commercially available water borne, WB SI leveled surprisingly well, much better than the latexes of yore. 

A few years ago, I was invited to a manufacturing plant up in Willmington (?) MA (Plainpainter also went) and we tested some resins they were creating. Application was with brushes barely better than chip brushes on pre-primed HD crap molding. One product laid on like soft warm Marshmallow Fluff and dried (quickly) to a sprayed-on finish. I wish I could remember the name of the company (it's here on PT somewhere, but I'm to lazy to even search my own 11,485 posts).

It gave us great hopes that some paint company would be buying these resins and not adulterating them too much.


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## alertchief

NACE said:


> WB Satin Impervo is a waterborne styrenated acrylic with low shear viscosity rheology. It's VOC content went from 350 grams per liter to 150, and therfore has quicker dry time. This resulted is a softer finish with less leveling and harder brushing characteristics. It still however, is a great product and has excellent results despite it's being compromised by OTC. Rub the finish with Rotten Stone and WD40 or vegtable oil with a micor fiber or soft cotten cloth and you will see a finish that is truly hand rubbed.


This is why I read pt! Well done and great tip!


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## DeanV

NACE said:


> WB Satin Impervo is a waterborne styrenated acrylic with low shear viscosity rheology. It's VOC content went from 350 grams per liter to 150, and therfore has quicker dry time. This resulted is a softer finish with less leveling and harder brushing characteristics. It still however, is a great product and has excellent results despite it's being compromised by OTC. Rub the finish with Rotten Stone and WD40 or vegtable oil with a micor fiber or soft cotten cloth and you will see a finish that is truly hand rubbed.


I wish manufacturers would tell contractors what changes they make, what the effect will be, and when they do it, not only after a tweaked products causes issues. I do not like the sound of "softer finish" for a trim paint. BM paints, at least re aura and advance, have not been the hardest to begin with.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I wish manufacturers would tell contractors what changes they make, what the effect will be, and when they do it, not only after a tweaked products causes issues. I do not like the sound of "softer finish" for a trim paint. BM paints, at least re aura and advance, have not been the hardest to begin with.


"Soft" is one of those ambiguous terms. The finish has a soft, buttery feel to it when wet and dry. By oil enamel standards, it is not as hard. But that is fine. By waterborne standards it is not soft at all. 

Big tradeoffs in going from oil to wb. But I like it when one comes along that is good off both a brush and a sprayer, and user friendly, as long as the user knows how to use it.


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## JoseyWales

vermontpainter said:


> "Soft" is one of those ambiguous terms. The finish has a soft, buttery feel to it when wet and dry. By oil enamel standards, it is not as hard. But that is fine. By waterborne standards it is not soft at all.
> 
> Big tradeoffs in going from oil to wb. But I like it when one comes along that is good off both a brush and a sprayer, and user friendly, as long as the user knows how to use it.


I'm not sure how you are grading this product..Is it now your go-to trim paint if applied by brush?

Grade it on a scale of 1-10...

We should start grading products in here so the comparisons are easier..


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## vermontpainter

JoseyWales said:


> I'm not sure how you are grading this product..Is it now your go-to trim paint if applied by brush?
> 
> Grade it on a scale of 1-10...
> 
> We should start grading products in here so the comparisons are easier..


Its hard to grade all the trim paints. Some are specialized (better in one critical discispline than another) and some are all around good to work with and satisfy the criteria of user experience and end user satisfaction. 

WB impervo is a good all around. There are some applications where it is not my first choice, but there are many where it is top 1-2 pretty consistently. 

What that makes it in an overall scale, I am not quite sure, but it would be a much higher than average number.


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## JoseyWales

vermontpainter said:


> Its hard to grade all the trim paints. Some are specialized (better in one critical discispline than another) and some are all around good to work with and satisfy the criteria of user experience and end user satisfaction.
> 
> WB impervo is a good all around. There are some applications where it is not my first choice, but there are many where it is top 1-2 pretty consistently.
> 
> What that makes it in an overall scale, I am not quite sure, but it would be a much higher than average number.


What applications make it your first or second choice?


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## vermontpainter

JoseyWales said:


> What applications make it your first or second choice?


I like the fact that it is brushable in about any situation. There are alot of items that can be sprayed with it in lieu of oil. I guess I would say that the exclusionary category might be when the trim package crosses over into the architectural features that are the trim package "pop" items. Things like kitchen cabinets, maybe built ins, vanities and mantles...not quite as durable (hard) in those high wear areas. It will do these things well, just not at the same high level as its oil based predecessor.

For trim, windows, doors, crown, panel work, beadboard, stair systems...it lands pretty high on the short list.


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## straight_lines

It also has great enamel holdout for painting factory primed trim. As Scott mentioned you can make it look great with ease once you learn how to apply it.

Scott I saw you mentioned you used chinex, did you stop using the syntox for brushing it?


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## JoseyWales

vermontpainter said:


> I like the fact that it is brushable in about any situation. There are alot of items that can be sprayed with it in lieu of oil. I guess I would say that the exclusionary category might be when the trim package crosses over into the architectural features that are the trim package "pop" items. Things like kitchen cabinets, maybe built ins, vanities and mantles...not quite as durable (hard) in those high wear areas. It will do these things well, just not at the same high level as its oil based predecessor.
> 
> For trim, windows, doors, crown, panel work, beadboard, stair systems...it lands pretty high on the short list.


So you like it better than Aura as a trim paint you brush?..tougher enamel?


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## vermontpainter

JoseyWales said:


> So you like it better than Aura as a trim pain you brush?..tougher enamel?


Never liked Aura (or Duration) as trim paints. For completely different reasons. 

In the decision of Aura vs 314 (wb imp), most of the trim we do is painted in colors that would not benefit from what it is about Aura that makes it so (damn) expensive. And, it is not user friendly enough, except for the fact that it dries fast. In trim paint, I dont want a two edged sword like that. 

We have done some nice Aura trim packages in black and stuff, which on the flip side has been the disadvantage to 314, which I believe is still 1 and 2 bases only.


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## JoseyWales

vermontpainter said:


> Never liked Aura (or Duration) as trim paints. For completely different reasons.
> 
> In the decision of Aura vs 314 (wb imp), most of the trim we do is painted in colors that would not benefit from what it is about Aura that makes it so (damn) expensive. And, it is not user friendly enough, except for the fact that it dries fast. In trim paint, I dont want a two edged sword like that.
> 
> We have done some nice Aura trim packages in black and stuff, which on the flip side has been the disadvantage to 314, which I believe is still 1 and 2 bases only.



That's good to know..I don't brush Aura for trim for the same reasons...So you're saying that the Impervo WB doesn't run as much as Aura and is a tougher finish?


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> It also has great enamel holdout for painting factory primed trim. As Scott mentioned you can make it look great with ease once you learn how to apply it.
> 
> Scott I saw you mentioned you used chinex, did you stop using the syntox for brushing it?


No particular reason. We got a wicked deal on a bunch of Chinex through our local sw, and stocked up on it because it was a good brush in '11, from the standpoint of how well they clean and bounce back each day. 

Heard Purdy is making it go away. Hope that was a rumor.


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## vermontpainter

JoseyWales said:


> That good to know..I don't brush Aura for trim for the same reasons...So you're saying that the Impervo WB doesn't run as much as Aura and is a tougher finish?


I am not saying it is a tougher finish at all. Aura is probably technically the tougher finish, but 314 is definitely tough enough. Most things that will bang it up will also bang up Aura in real life situations. 

Both can run, especially in bead profiles being brushed vertically. It you dont get enough tooth in the beads on verticals, you can slide Aura or 314 down to a little pool at the window stool no problem, which is fine as long as it doesnt dry, and you are working top down. Its not a real issue though if you have a good batch going. 

Aura can be really funky in odd temps and humidities too. It can do some wonky stuff even to a painter that knows how to use it. This makes it finicky. I dont like finicky in trim paint, or leg growth. I like appropriate mil thicknesses and seeing finishes being built with no backwards motion. 314 can be good that way in the right hands.


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## DeanV

I liked chinex when they first came out, but to be honest I never buy them now. I felt they wore down faster (shortening of the bristle kind of wear) than any other brush I have used. A good wall brush for cuttg in, but I have always been partial to softer brushes for trim work. Seeing your photo though obvious goes to show that they work great for you on trim. Maybe I should start adding conditioners to trim paint sometime.


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## JoseyWales

vermontpainter said:


> I am not saying it is a tougher finish at all. Aura is probably technically the tougher finish, but 314 is definitely tough enough. Most things that will bang it up will also bang up Aura in real life situations.
> 
> Both can run, especially in bead profiles being brushed vertically. It you dont get enough tooth in the beads on verticals, you can slide Aura or 314 down to a little pool at the window stool no problem, which is fine as long as it doesnt dry, and you are working top down. Its not a real issue though if you have a good batch going.
> 
> Aura can be really funky in odd temps and humidities too. It can do some wonky stuff even to a painter that knows how to use it. This makes it finicky. I dont like finicky in trim paint, or leg growth. I like appropriate mil thicknesses and seeing finishes being built with no backwards motion. 314 can be good that way in the right hands.


With Aura you don't often have a big open time to fix your runs...It's odd that it dries very quick but can sag over time...Sometimes you will mess up the work going over it after X amount of time..I like a lot of open time with my trim paints..


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I liked chinex when they first came out, but to be honest I never buy them now. I felt they wore down faster (shortening of the bristle kind of wear) than any other brush I have used. A good wall brush for cuttg in, but I have always been partial to softer brushes for trim work. Seeing your photo though obvious goes to show that they work great for you on trim. Maybe I should start adding conditioners to trim paint sometime.


The way it works for us is if we give a trim painter a new Chinex at the beginning of a job, he uses it through primer stage, and by the time he gets into finish mode, its a pretty seasoned brush. Sometimes the softer brushes don't lay it out to butter like a slightly springier one. I won't name names, but some are unusable when they go too far in either direction. Softer brushes on trim work can slow things down and end up making things too brushy.


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## vermontpainter

JoseyWales said:


> With Aura you don't often have a big open time to fix your runs...It's odd that it dries very quick but can sag over time...Sometimes you will mess up the work going over it after X amount of time..I like a lot of open time with my trim paints..


And with Aura, X can be a short amount of time.


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## TJ Paint

straight_lines said:


> It also hurts your wrist to go back into WB imprevo.


don't lie


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## NACE

daArch said:


> NACE,
> 
> I really love the technical stuff, as I've always have wanted to know as much as my pea brain can absorb about the characteristics of architectural coatings.
> 
> HOWEVER, that same pea brain has NO IDEA what "styrenated" and "rheology" mean. Can you give a "Dummies" version
> 
> Also you said, "despite it's being compromised by OTC". Again the only thing this mental midget knows about OTC is "over the counter". Is that what you meant.
> 
> (BUT I do know what rotten stone is :thumbup
> 
> Now as to the parts I do understand. I found that for a commercially available water borne, WB SI leveled surprisingly well, much better than the latexes of yore.
> 
> A few years ago, I was invited to a manufacturing plant up in Willmington (?) MA (Plainpainter also went) and we tested some resins they were creating. Application was with brushes barely better than chip brushes on pre-primed HD crap molding. One product laid on like soft warm Marshmallow Fluff and dried (quickly) to a sprayed-on finish. I wish I could remember the name of the company (it's here on PT somewhere, but I'm to lazy to even search my own 11,485 posts).
> 
> It gave us great hopes that some paint company would be buying these resins and not adulterating them too much.


Since you and I both know Chuck Scott and know his level of quality I can not possibly categorize you as a dummy. Styrenes are a sweet smelling oily easy flowing organic resin, when combined with low sheer viscosity and rheology (flow) make a great leveling relatively hard coating that dries quickly. OTC is Overland Transport Commision, which over sees the VOC levels and compounds used in the coatings industry. Basically they make the laws and the states follow with their recommendations. OTC changed the VOC levels for various coatings and the old 314 WB SI had 350 Grams per liter of VOC that gave a great flowing product with a harder film with good open time. It was developed because Muralo had come out with its Ultra line that was a styrene based coating with high shear viscosity that leveled great, unlike any latex paint at the time, but really dried quickly and lapped fiercely especially on 6 panel doors. BM changed the rheology, the shear, and voc levels to achieve the performance Ultra was trying to achieve with characteristics of oil based satin Impervo the painter really wanted. 235 was thought to be on the trash heap because of OTC. Partially why it now says for metal only. The reason paint companies struggle to inform contractors about product changes is because VOC laws change everyday and you need a staff of attorneys to insure your product is compliant everyday. In addition, each state has its own law so formulas may have to be different for each state. It's complicated. When a product changes and the painter says this stuff is different, they are making it cheaper and charging me more, that maybe partially true in that the company had to respond to a voc law without being able to fully analyze and test the new product to their rigorous standards. You would be very impressed with the quality control most paint companies and raw material suppliers go through to insure quality. Ask a rep to take you to the lab sometime. Now is a good time of year.


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## jack pauhl

It would be nice if paint companies made an effort at informing paint contractors about formulation changes. It should not be assumed contractors will be fine with changes made to their products, after all, we purchased the product regularly for specific reasons and to find those reasons changed can be very costly for contractors. Some paint contractors including myself prefer to test product off-site rather than making a customers house a testing ground for new formulation changes. 

Guys can shoot a product day in and day out, house after house and then all of sudden be faced with a different product.


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## daArch

> Since you and I both know Chuck Scott and know his level of quality I can not possibly categorize you as a dummy.


obviously you haven't talked to Chuck about me  BTW, if you see him beforeI do, give him my best - I was the idiot he talked to on the streets of Portland at the NGPP convention a few years back.

thanks for the explanation. That does help a lot. And having done retail for a bit selling quality products (California was the main line) I was impressed about the necessary quality control, not only of their processes but of the raw materials pouring into the plant.


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## RH

NACE said:


> Since you and I both know Chuck Scott and know his level of quality I can not possibly categorize you as a dummy. Styrenes are a sweet smelling oily easy flowing organic resin, when combined with low sheer viscosity and rheology (flow) make a great leveling relatively hard coating that dries quickly. OTC is Overland Transport Commision, which over sees the VOC levels and compounds used in the coatings industry. Basically they make the laws and the states follow with their recommendations. OTC changed the VOC levels for various coatings and the old 314 WB SI had 350 Grams per liter of VOC that gave a great flowing product with a harder film with good open time. It was developed because Muralo had come out with its Ultra line that was a styrene based coating with high shear viscosity that leveled great, unlike any latex paint at the time, but really dried quickly and lapped fiercely especially on 6 panel doors. BM changed the rheology, the shear, and voc levels to achieve the performance Ultra was trying to achieve with characteristics of oil based satin Impervo the painter really wanted. 235 was thought to be on the trash heap because of OTC. Partially why it now says for metal only. The reason paint companies struggle to inform contractors about product changes is because VOC laws change everyday and you need a staff of attorneys to insure your product is compliant everyday. In addition, each state has its own law so formulas may have to be different for each state. It's complicated. When a product changes and the painter says this stuff is different, they are making it cheaper and charging me more, that maybe partially true in that the company had to respond to a voc law without being able to fully analyze and test the new product to their rigorous standards. You would be very impressed with the quality control most paint companies and raw material suppliers go through to insure quality. Ask a rep to take you to the lab sometime. Now is a good time of year.


And we wonder why prices keep going up.


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## dvab

To be certain, the primary reason prices are going up is the cost of raw materials, not VOC regs. Yes, pulling VOC's out of formulas often changes performance, especially open time and perhaps flow and leveling due to the reduced open time, but most raw material suppliers have been busy working on low or no VOC alternatives for the past several years. You do not necessarily need to give up performance to be green.

Yes there are many different regulatory areas that paint companies must contend with but the reality is that there are not that many different rules since many of these agencies tend to adopt one of the existing rules already in place (e.g. Canada's newly adopted rules are modeled after our OTC rules). SouthCoast is the exception as they are always leading the pack in pushing levels ever further downward. The result is that most companies have existing products already in place that they can introduce to the newly regulated areas. Two other quick corrections, WSI is an acrylic, not styrenated, and OTC stands for Ozone Transport Commission.


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