# Venting Aaaargh !



## The Painter Guy (Dec 10, 2007)

Did an estimate two days ago for a two story great room, connecting hallway to a two story foyer, eight large windows in the great room then a front door, side lites, and baseboard throughout. In addition a master bedroom was to have tre ceiling painted, multiple colors, one of the four walls was to have a faux finish applied in venetian plaster. trim in the room was to be painted two doors two lg windows and baseboard. Their master bath was also to be painted, clg, walls and trim. They then asked to have the trim repainted throughout the first floor. doors, frames, baseboard. I prepared a thorough proposal for them including 35 references, detailed description of work I would do, and a contractor comparison form.
I called them back tonight to see if they had any questions and see if we were being considered. H.O replied that I was thousands of $ apart from two other estimates and they were waiting for two more. I dug a little deeper and found out that one est came in at $2200.00 not including paint. My bid was in the $10,000 range including everything.
I don't get it! I bid this job with the current economic situation in mind and bid it to get it. I know I should know better than to think that every homeowner is aware of the pitfalls they will encounter by seeking cheapest bid but this one is frustrating.
Thanks for letting me vent.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I ran into a couple of those in a row last spring, not that large of a job, but being under bid by 66% or so. It can be frustrating.


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## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

I know the feeling! Just bid a job where the bids were from 8,000-16,000. I was at 10,200...... the 8,000 man got it:thumbup:...... the GC did not know how the guy was going to turn a dime on it......


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I understand your frustration, on the flip side I found out today that the current large re paint we have going on that we were the highest of the three bids and the lowest bidder was pissed off that he lost and sent a pretty rude email claiming he was the best painter and that no one would do a great like him... I was stunned by the email the client let me read it. 

The end result to win the job was our presentation and the fact the clients older mother lives there and she said she felt I was one that she would feel safest with in the house while we were working and she was their.. 

Keep plugging away Painter guy to give in to the lowballers keep bidding the way you do...


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## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

I will soon be in the same boat ,I have a bid i have been working on atm around 8 weeks of work for myself with materials im over 10k and need to chat with the carpenter before i submit it because there is more woodwork and sheetrock to be done. But i feel if it keeps going up he will get someone to undercut me and there goes my winter.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

The Painter Guy said:


> Did an estimate two days ago for a two story great room, connecting hallway to a two story foyer, eight large windows in the great room then a front door, side lites, and baseboard throughout. In addition a master bedroom was to have tre ceiling painted, multiple colors, one of the four walls was to have a faux finish applied in venetian plaster. trim in the room was to be painted two doors two lg windows and baseboard. Their master bath was also to be painted, clg, walls and trim. They then asked to have the trim repainted throughout the first floor. doors, frames, baseboard. I prepared a thorough proposal for them including 35 references, detailed description of work I would do, and a contractor comparison form.
> I called them back tonight to see if they had any questions and see if we were being considered. H.O replied that I was thousands of $ apart from two other estimates and they were waiting for two more. I dug a little deeper and found out that one est came in at $2200.00 not including paint. My bid was in the $10,000 range including everything.
> I don't get it! I bid this job with the current economic situation in mind and bid it to get it. I know I should know better than to think that every homeowner is aware of the pitfalls they will encounter by seeking cheapest bid but this one is frustrating.
> Thanks for letting me vent.


BTDT !

Couple of jobs within the last year, I have lost out to MUCH cheaper bids and to people who can start "tomorrow".

I try to make potential clients ask themselves why is this other person so cheap and available on a moment's notice ?


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## The Painter Guy (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks daArch 
I will give it a try on the next one.
At the end of my conversation with the H.O I simply thanked her for sharing the information with me and tried not to sound incredulous or annoyed. Your approach sounds better.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

This is where the $200/2 rooms guys come in to play. You can't beat those guys - They don't last very long but there's always another comes along right after them. Most people will learn by their mistakes and get a reputable tradesperson in after they've been bitten once. It's just unfortunate that we're the ones that lose out on some decent work because of them.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

What form of advertizing connected you to this homeowner? The reason I ask - I really think the form of advertizing that 'lures' a potential customer is also what sells your company. If you got this referal from a paint store clerk - then you have to realize all estimates from that paint store clerk will be viewed as a 'level' playing field. It doesn't matter if you are above and beyond and professional - and the other guys is a hack, if you both came from the same form of advertizing - you are viewed as the same - so the lowest cost guy is the one that gets the job. 

This is why I no longer chase certain leads anymore - to me paint store clerk leads are utter trash - unless you know for a fact they only give out leads to exclusive contractors. But if they don't - then your competition that can't even afford a little service ad listing - is now your competition!
This goes with craigslist leads - and any form of cheapo advertizing. Any contractor that has to invest serious money in good advertizing is going to charge a good rate - or go under fast.


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## The Painter Guy (Dec 10, 2007)

Good point! When I did the estimate I asked how they heard of me and was told they saw my business card at paint store. So the four other cards they selected from bulletin board could be anybody. Thanks


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## The Painter Guy (Dec 10, 2007)

*Funny How things tie in.*

To daArch
Thanks for that earlier piece of advice.
I just answered phone and a H.O I had submitted an earlier proposal to said all her estimates were in and that I was higher than another she was considering. She then asked me why I was higher than the other, which is kind of reversed from what you suggested. But having had time to think about what you said I replied well I don't know about the other contractor but that we have a good reputation for the prep work we do, I do not know what kind of insurance he has (H.O. said he didn't mention ins and also that he had run out of paper for proposals so only left a phone quote) I said please call my references and they will tell you whether we are worth what we charge or not. We talked for a couple more minutes and she gave me the job.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

The Painter Guy said:


> Good point! When I did the estimate I asked how they heard of me and was told they saw my business card at paint store. So the four other cards they selected from bulletin board could be anybody. Thanks


 
Now you know - if you are smart you'll ask ahead of time - and then try and pre-sell over the phone - or see if they are receptive to other forms of advertizing. My bet, is that if they saw the business cards on the cork board at the paint store - then they thought they were all equally qualified. Homeowners think strange thoughts - even though you and I both know a business card on a cork board means nothing - any hack can have their card there - for the simple fact that is where they went to 'shop' for names - they believe deep down that is where 'qualified' contractors advertize - and you're all equally qualified. 

If you want my opinion - paint stores bear a lot of responsibility in the 'fall' of our trades. All they care about is who buys their paint - and if the hack that buys a lot of paint gives them the most business - that's all they care about. I think in the end - it comes back to bite the industry - and until paint stores require all contractors to have licensing, insurance, reputation, and pay a fee to advertize in their store. Then these retailers are part of the problem. Any time there is an outlet that allows someone to put themselves in front of a customer for free - then it's a bad thing. 
How many times have I gone into a million dollar home to give them an estimate - and found out another guy bid it at $20/hr - and was a referal from a paint store. And I am the one that ends up looking like a jerk.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

We painted an interior of a house in Aug. 08. Our bid was $19,200. We did quite well on the house. The house next to them called last week. We bidded $12k and change. It was less work. I followed up today and the HO said that he hired a guy that can start next week and his price was $4750. How in the hell can anyone work for that?!! Can't wait to see this guy next week when I drive by.
These guys are all circling the drain and are about to go down.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

The Painter Guy said:


> To daArch
> Thanks for that earlier piece of advice.
> I just answered phone and a H.O I had submitted an earlier proposal to said all her estimates were in and that I was higher than another she was considering. She then asked me why I was higher than the other, which is kind of reversed from what you suggested. But having had time to think about what you said I replied well I don't know about the other contractor but that we have a good reputation for the prep work we do, I do not know what kind of insurance he has (H.O. said he didn't mention ins and also that he had run out of paper for proposals so only left a phone quote) I said please call my references and they will tell you whether we are worth what we charge or not. We talked for a couple more minutes and she gave me the job.


 

I've had similar experiences. My answer to why I am more expensive is this:

"Mr. and Mrs. Smith, I am really happy you gave me a call and I can explain why the ABC painting company charges less than I do. The reasons are straightforward."

1) I am insured
2) I am booked
3) I do not rush through your job

Let me explain more specifically why this translates into a better job for you.

(A)
I don't know if ABC painting is insured, but I would find that out. If ABC does not have the required worker's compensation insurance and liability coverage, you could have a very big financial head ache on your hands.

(B)
I am booked year round because I do quality work at rates that allow me to stay in business year to year. I have all the required licensing, insurance, and liability coverage to ensure proper business practices. The fact that you must wait for our service means our services are sought after. If ABC can start your work tomorrow, I'd want to examine why that is.

(C)
The low bid outfit works on the idea of volume, not quality. In order to make any money, ABC most likely has to move quickly to the next job. ABC cannot afford to take the time required for excellent work. My price allows me to stay with your job until it is completed in a top shelf manner and every detail is correct and satisfactory to you. I back my work up and aim to make you a customer for life.

If you examine these 3 points carefully, you'll agree that hiring us makes good sense. The old adage: "You get what you pay for really holds remarkably true for painting contractors." 

If you value honesty, excellent work ethics, professionalism, and accommodation, you'll give us the nod on your job. And, by the way, if you call several of our customers, you'll get their personal reasons for having us in their home."

JTP


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## The Painter Guy (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for spelling it out. I am going to print it and use it!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

JTP ! mind if I use a variation of your very well put together explanation????


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I can start tomarrow and charge more too. 

Well put my friend:thumbup:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

My input is freely given here. If it helps, I consider it a compliment. Feel free to use verbatim, modify, or throw it out.

JTP


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## TopShelf (Nov 23, 2008)

Well put JTP, I think I'm going to bring that up before they even ask.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

So... if you take your vehicle in for repair and the mechanic tells you the same thing, how do you respond?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I do not try to "bargain" with Any service providers. I trust that they know their pricing and give them the same respect that I would expect from my customers


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> These guys are all circling the drain and are about to go down.


Unfortunately, you are probably wrong. Imagine this:
He does the job by himself
He pays no insurance
He pays no workers comp
He pays no taxes
He (thinks) he has little or no overhead
If it takes him 3 weeks, $1500 +/- per week CASH is a livable wage. Even someone living in higher COL areas like NJ or CA could survive off this for an indefinite amount of time.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> So... if you take your vehicle in for repair and the mechanic tells you the same thing, how do you respond?


 
Bender--Think your question through please. Same principles apply

a) I am insured
b) I have lots of work
c) I guarantee what I do

So Mr. and Mrs Smith--"You can use the guy working out of his house garage and front yard, or you can use my services. Yes, I am more expensive and I can cut the price by using parts made in China and offering no guarantee; but I made the decision a long time ago to insure quality parts and work. So, if my prices are too high, I do understand. Take it to Front Yard Auto Service where they use cinder block instead of a lift."

BTW-- You cannot offer much of any real value if you are a low-baller, if you have no insurance, have no work, and offer no guarantee on your work. You actually have to have something of value to offer in the first place.

JTP


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## zerowned (Jul 23, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> If you want my opinion - paint stores bear a lot of responsibility in the 'fall' of our trades. All they care about is who buys their paint - and if the hack that buys a lot of paint gives them the most business - that's all they care about. I think in the end - it comes back to bite the industry - and until paint stores require all contractors to have licensing, insurance, reputation, and pay a fee to advertize in their store. Then these retailers are part of the problem. Any time there is an outlet that allows someone to put themselves in front of a customer for free - then it's a bad thing.
> How many times have I gone into a million dollar home to give them an estimate - and found out another guy bid it at $20/hr - and was a referal from a paint store. And I am the one that ends up looking like a jerk.




that happened to me with our local BM store, the owner just lets ANYONE put there card in the holders..... I hate it. 

I go in take a look at all the new cards every other week and I ask her,

"do you know this guy? do you know he just started his painting company 6 months ago and has little experience... and I know for a fact because I went to school with this guy and recently talked to him and he openly said he had only 6 months of painting under his belt"

she says "oh I didnt know, he came in and bought a few gallons of paint...." 

the guy buys a fiver of paint and gets a job out of it from the owner, i went to this guys site and hes not even using the BM paint.... under bid the job, only bid 1800 for 1000sqft prime and 2top coats. hes using a cheaper companys primer and putting it on with a graco 490 way to close and way to thick, the rig looks brandnew,

yea i totally agree that some paintstores are giving hacks way to good of deals, guy got an account and a discount on a nothing purchase.... I am going to go to the house and see if he even cut straight.

and i think he said he was just going to prime the ceilings with 2 coats of the cheap primer from the other paintstore.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> Unfortunately, you are probably wrong. Imagine this:
> He does the job by himself
> He pays no insurance
> He pays no workers comp
> ...


I know. That is a problem. At the price I quoted, it will keep guys working and just put a little in our Bank.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

JTP said:


> I've had similar experiences. My answer to why I am more expensive is this:
> 
> "Mr. and Mrs. Smith, I am really happy you gave me a call and I can explain why the ABC painting company charges less than I do. The reasons are straightforward."
> 
> ...


JTP, don't get me wrong, I agree with you in principal. In a Utopian economy this sounds like a great idea. However in early 2009 I dont believe (most) people are looking for the high priced, booked out 2 month contractor (assuming your painting your home/business for the benefit of your investment, or simply to sell/dump it). Especially somebody looking for "just" a paint job. 

There is a VERY fine line between scab and pro right now. I dont think my $1100.00 a year, 2million worth of liabilty dictates I need to charge $600.00 for every bedroom (or the fact I can't paint it for 5 weeks). This seems to me a hard sell right now. I painted many a $200 bedroom under that same policy and quite frankly 'overhead' was a foriegn word to me. 

My reference to a mechanic is...
If you said you needed my truck to sit for 2 or 3 weeks because you were good I would call somebody else. I need my truck.
I just paid $500.00 at a Ford dealership for an EGR valve on my truck . This valve sits on top of my engine, held in with 2 bolts and a connector. This is a $200.00 part at list price. They charged me $300.00 for labor and the ball breaker is it didnt fix the problem.
Think I will hire them next time because they charge more/must be good?


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## zerowned (Jul 23, 2008)

Bender said:


> My reference to a mechanic is...
> If you said you needed my truck to sit for 2 or 3 weeks because you were good I would call somebody else. I need my truck.
> I just paid $500.00 at a Ford dealership for an EGR valve on my truck . This valve sits on top of my engine, held in with 2 bolts and a connector. This is a $200.00 part at list price. They charged me $300.00 for labor and the ball breaker is it didnt fix the problem.
> Think I will hire them next time because they charge more/must be good?



EGR Valves are a crappy part to change out, on mine it sits on the top back away from the view of the eye and most tools, mine blew off and ran really rough for a while and i went to a friend and he fixed it for free, had a replacement sitting in a box from an old torn down ford... it was still running rough for the entire summer and it turns out i had a dead fuel injector, swapped that out for 300 bucks [at ford] and it was running awesome... see if ford can do a diagnostic test on it and find out whats wrong... this is not paint related i guess eh...


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> JTP, don't get me wrong, I agree with you in principal. In a Utopian economy this sounds like a great idea. However in early 2009 I dont believe (most) people are looking for the high priced, booked out 2 month contractor (assuming your painting your home/business for the benefit of your investment, or simply to sell/dump it). Especially somebody looking for "just" a paint job.
> 
> There is a VERY fine line between scab and pro right now. I dont think my $1100.00 a year, 2million worth of liabilty dictates I need to charge $600.00 for every bedroom (or the fact I can't paint it for 5 weeks). This seems to me a hard sell right now. I painted many a $200 bedroom under that same policy and quite frankly 'overhead' was a foriegn word to me.
> 
> ...


Bender--You make some excellent points. There are obvious differences and similiarities in business. The specifics of each situation vary. The analogy of mechanic and painter does not hold up under the conditions you describe in this post. 

I don't have a problem with your other comments about scab and pro either. The question and post I was responding to centered on how to justify a higher price for the same job. In this specific instance, I believe my suggestions have merit.

If you are a high class painter, do you really want to roll in the mud with the lowballers of the world? If you can afford to match prices with the lowballers and still do the work as you would when painting $600 rooms, I applaude your panache. 

Let's say you bid a job for $4000. The lowballer comes in at $2500. How do you, the high bidder, justify your price. This is the basic question I was repsonding to.

JTP


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

There is always a reason why someone low balls. Desperation, lack of self worth, lack of skills, strange personality, guilt over money etc.

If the going rate for a paticular job is $1000, why would I offer less? I don't see any reason to do it. It's worth what it's worth. If my overhead is less than yours or I can do it more efficient then that means more profit for me. Do we not get beat down on price by GC's and customers enough? Why do it to ourselves?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

zerowned said:


> that happened to me with our local BM store, the owner just lets ANYONE put there card in the holders..... I hate it.
> 
> I go in take a look at all the new cards every other week and I ask her,
> 
> ...


One of the B/M stores around here supposedly gets a "kickback" from a local unlicensed contractor in return for referals. Now it might just be jealous talk from the other LEGAL contractors. But this painter does get most of the referals.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daren said:


> There is always a reason why someone low balls. Desperation, lack of self worth, lack of skills, strange personality, guilt over money etc.
> 
> If the going rate for a paticular job is $1000, why would I offer less? I don't see any reason to do it. It's worth what it's worth. If my overhead is less than yours or I can do it more efficient then that means more profit for me. Do we not get beat down on price by GC's and customers enough? Why do it to ourselves?


The problem with perceived (and real) lowballers is that some people have much lower overhead and therefore can charge much less. We have all done jobs for much less than other professionals without lowballing. 

If you are a small shop without estimators, office rent, office help and such, your overhead will naturally be lower so you can charge less. Does that make you a lowballer?

Not saying they are not out there, but just because someone beats your price, it does not mean they are hacks or lowballers.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

its a myth that you always get what you pay for

there are a lot of big and small outfits that do hack work for top dollar.

do what you need to do, have some pride, and take care of whats yours.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> If you are a small shop without estimators, office rent, office help and such, your overhead will naturally be lower so you can charge less. Does that make you a lowballer?


Yes - but not only are you not compensating yourself for every 'hat' you wear in your own company. Not affording office help, business space - also begs the question?

The thing about lowballers, what gets most guys mad - is that how can you compete with someone who's hellbent on doing lots of work for free?
It's not that they are cheaper or have less overhead - they just aren't charging the customers for rent of their own garage, now the business has taken it over. They don't charge for all the time spent on the road delivering estimates, all the time meeting with web designers. Heck - they probably think that truck they use is their responsibility and not the customers.

It's all those things that add up {or don't in this case} on top of a really low hourly 'on-the-rate' job that really peaves professional contractors.

I have a theory that if you look at all the savings of not owning a business and the amount of aggravation involved. These guys would have far more coinage in their pockets if they worked at lowe's fulltime. The only thing that is 'free' that you do is the daily commute to and from work. Everything else is paid paid paid with bene's. No having to buy a liability policy - no having to buy and reconstantly buy your own tools - the list is endless. And oh yes - guaranteed work every working day of the week!


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## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> What form of advertizing connected you to this homeowner? The reason I ask - I really think the form of advertizing that 'lures' a potential customer is also what sells your company. If you got this referal from a paint store clerk - then you have to realize all estimates from that paint store clerk will be viewed as a 'level' playing field. It doesn't matter if you are above and beyond and professional - and the other guys is a hack, if you both came from the same form of advertizing - you are viewed as the same - so the lowest cost guy is the one that gets the job.
> 
> This is why I no longer chase certain leads anymore - to me paint store clerk leads are utter trash - unless you know for a fact they only give out leads to exclusive contractors. But if they don't - then your competition that can't even afford a little service ad listing - is now your competition!
> This goes with craigslist leads - and any form of cheapo advertizing. Any contractor that has to invest serious money in good advertizing is going to charge a good rate - or go under fast.


True that...very insightful...thanks for posting that. :thumbup:


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> The problem with perceived (and real) lowballers is that some people have much lower overhead and therefore can charge much less. We have all done jobs for much less than other professionals without lowballing.
> 
> If you are a small shop without estimators, office rent, office help and such, your overhead will naturally be lower so you can charge less. Does that make you a lowballer?
> 
> Not saying they are not out there, but just because someone beats your price, it does not mean they are hacks or lowballers.


I see what you are saying.

I'm always trying to look for the win-win-win situation.

Win #1 - happy customer - great job at a fair price

Win #2 - happy painter/contrator - great job with profit and referals

Win #3 - happy competition - honor among thieves so to speak, if I screw another painter on price then it drives the price down for all of us. Just because I can charge lower doesn't mean I should. We're in it to make money and we all represent each other.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Yes - but not only are you not compensating yourself for every 'hat' you wear in your own company. Not affording office help, business space - also begs the question?
> 
> The thing about lowballers, what gets most guys mad - is that how can you compete with someone who's hellbent on doing lots of work for free?
> It's not that they are cheaper or have less overhead - they just aren't charging the customers for rent of their own garage, now the business has taken it over. They don't charge for all the time spent on the road delivering estimates, all the time meeting with web designers. Heck - they probably think that truck they use is their responsibility and not the customers.
> ...


Originally Posted by *bikerboy*  
_
If you are a small shop without estimators, office rent, office help and such, your overhead will naturally be lower so you can charge less. Does that make you a lowballer?
_

Yes - but not only are you not compensating yourself for every 'hat' you wear in your own company. Not affording office help, business space - also begs the question?


How do you know what I or anyone else is compensated?

What "question is begged" by not spending money on business space or office help? I see that as an uneeded expense.

I have a lifelong freind currently spending 3 months in Key West, Fl because work is slow.

He is 49.

He is not college educated.

He does not need to work at all anymore.

He runs a successful construction business from his home. (and always has)

He has no office help. (does have an accountant)

By your standards he is a lowballer. And there is "question to be begged". (if you met him, you'd think he was a Bubba hunter/fisherman)

By my standards, he is a person to emulate and he runs a lean mean and very successful business.

You are judging a business on the visable material things and the total expenses that they take on. (IMHO)

 I have those guys in my area. They are crying big time because they can't compete. They can't compete because the overhead obligations eat them up. They need to charge more, because they need more to survive.

It's great if you want or need to be a slave to overhead. I choose not to.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daren said:


> I see what you are saying.
> 
> I'm always trying to look for the win-win-win situation.
> 
> ...


I lost many jobs this year due to price. We still had a great increase in gross sales. I guarantee that some of the contractors who lost out to us think I am a lowballer. (and I of the ones I lost to.)

It goes with the territory. Been around it so long, that it rarely bothers me.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

are you happy?

can you be proud of what you do?

do you enjoy your flexibility?

spend quality time with your family?

if so, you are a winner.

you will read more of this lowballer stuff in this economy. 

now go out and land some paint jobs.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

You have a point. Success is in the eye of the beholder. We all tend to use a different metric for measuring success. What matters most is how comfortable one is with one's self.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I love it when guys love to justify their low pricing and their 'low' overhead and blah blah blah. If I had a nickel for everytime I found out through the 'little' birdy network - that in fact so and so contractor, his girlfriend pays all the monthly bills. Enough said. 

Another thing that separates lowballers from professionals. Lowballers are constantly talking about being 'fair' to their customers. Where as a professional may be doing well financially - and then begins to wonder - what if I raise my pricing 5% across the boards, will everyone abandon me? Then they try it out - and find that no in fact not everyone abandoned - in fact very few did. Then they keep trying it and trying.

Another thing wrong with this whole lowballer attitude. I know dozens of guys locally that tell me - don't bother hiring white americans! Reverse racism! They're all like - it ain't worth putting up with guys that want to leave 3:30 every day - then they tell me the foreigners are worth their weight in gold - and now they all charge $25-$30 man hours - then they tell me how to hide over 50% of the money. And now I can see how they are really profitable, but it's a model built upon a house of cards. It's to the point now - where you have to adopt every single illegal method just to survive now in this industry. Gone are the days you want to hire legal americans and be above board. It's sad.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I love it when guys love to justify their low pricing and their 'low' overhead and blah blah blah. If I had a nickel for everytime I found out through the 'little' birdy network - that in fact so and so contractor, his girlfriend pays all the monthly bills. Enough said.
> 
> Another thing that separates lowballers from professionals. Lowballers are constantly talking about being 'fair' to their customers. Where as a professional may be doing well financially - and then begins to wonder - what if I raise my pricing 5% across the boards, will everyone abandon me? Then they try it out - and find that no in fact not everyone abandoned - in fact very few did. Then they keep trying it and trying.
> 
> Another thing wrong with this whole lowballer attitude. I know dozens of guys locally that tell me - don't bother hiring white americans! Reverse racism! They're all like - it ain't worth putting up with guys that want to leave 3:30 every day - then they tell me the foreigners are worth their weight in gold - and now they all charge $25-$30 man hours - then they tell me how to hide over 50% of the money. And now I can see how they are really profitable, but it's a model built upon a house of cards. It's to the point now - where you have to adopt every single illegal method just to survive now in this industry. Gone are the days you want to hire legal americans and be above board. It's sad.


 
This is what drives rates down!!!!!!!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

There will always be people willing to do a job cheaper. In economic times like this companies with large overhead need to learn how to trim the fat to be more profitable at a competitive price. You can try to upsell on quality and service for a higher price but for most winning those jobs has become a low percentage win. 

There are so many variables in the cost of a job besides overhead where I see that many here get lost. There are differences in production and material costs. There a many companies out there that have poor production and dont even realize it. This is where many find using the term "low baller" to be effective because they can not understand how the same job could be done more efficiently. 

I also dont think that many of the people that participate on forums like this are necessarily the leaders of their industry. The range of one man shops operating out of their mother basement to the multi crew and office staff with "real" overhead, is huge. Too many take comments by unqualified people as Gospel. There are also several factors of where your business is located. There are more depressed parts of the country where many sales methods mentioned here would not be applicable. 

How about a test for all. I could start a thread with 5 different jobs to price (1 residential exterior repaint, 1 residential interior repaint, 1 NC high end home, 1 NC spec home and 1 commercial office build). Pretend you are in your market and competing against members here to win the job. Given all the specs members could PM me their honest price and location. I will report back on the thread of the member and categorize their price from (A - E), five levels, (A) being the highest and (E) being the lowest. And with the data we could discuss how we come to the conclusion and how our production and overhead came into play. We all understand that there are no two companies alike and we all have different overhead and production numbers but I think this exercise might help to see where some are missing the point, some could learn from it and we could learn a little more about the people giving advice. 

Anyone interested? Comments?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Anyone interested? Comments?


definitely interested. Would be very eye-opening and sure to provoke quite a debate.

Do you plan on showing the person with their price? Or do a blind example with just prices and location posted?


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Getting a little dicey--that's great. I have to agree that different business models produce different results. Where you live and market also makes a large impact on your business structure. And as NEPS suggests, writing on a forum does not make you a genious business person or contractor.

You may be a super technician, but terrible business person or vice versa. I am a one man operation basically. When I need help, I take on a "partner" for that specific job. This works out OK for me. Maximizing production rates and office staff are not part of my model. But, you must know what my goals are first before you determine whether my position has merit or not.

Often we assume everyone has the same goals in mind. That is, and superficially, we believe everyone wants to make as much money as possible. But, I am sure that is NOT the goal for every painter here or elseswhere.

I will take NEPS up on the job bid idea. But, I can only bid on the interior and exterior repaints because that is all I really do. I am not looking to generate any other work in the other areas NEPS mentions. If it came my way, you might find me asking lots of questions here on PT.

It would be interesting to poll the group here in an attempt to determine what the main aims of being a painting contractor are. 

JTP


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> definitely interested. Would be very eye-opening and sure to provoke quite a debate.
> 
> Do you plan on showing the person with their price? Or do a blind example with just prices and location posted?


Well, upon further thought I dont think my idea of a A-E chart for prices would work. We would have to wait to collect all the data to find out where "a" lies. Instead I think a location, size of company and price would be better. The owner of their price could speak up and justify it if they like but I will not match names to prices. I'm sure there will be a great curve and I'm sure a few pieces of data could be bogus in a attempt to inflate egos. I think by giving anonymity will help to ensure giving honest answers.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

JTP said:


> Getting a little dicey--that's great. I have to agree that different business models produce different results. Where you live and market also makes a large impact on your business structure. And as NEPS suggests, writing on a forum does not make you a genious business person or contractor.
> 
> You may be a super technician, but terrible business person or vice versa. I am a one man operation basically. When I need help, I take on a "partner" for that specific job. This works out OK for me. Maximizing production rates and office staff are not part of my model. But, you must know what my goals are first before you determine whether my position has merit or not.
> 
> ...


For the record JTP I wasnt talking about you specifically but a large group in general .....including myself.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Yes - but not only are you not compensating yourself for every 'hat' you wear in your own company. Not affording office help, business space - also begs the question?
> 
> The thing about lowballers, what gets most guys mad - is that how can you compete with someone who's hellbent on doing lots of work for free?
> It's not that they are cheaper or have less overhead - they just aren't charging the customers for rent of their own garage, now the business has taken it over. They don't charge for all the time spent on the road delivering estimates, all the time meeting with web designers. Heck - they probably think that truck they use is their responsibility and not the customers.
> ...


Dan

I admire your pluck, and as Fenner said, your thick skin. But I think you sometimes take certain principles a bit too literally, like charging for all the hats you wear, and shrinkage for instance.

I understand the logic, but if it were possible to charge for all of these things and actually recover it, I for one would be a millionaire many times over. I am running a 10,000 s.f. new home this winter with a total of 8 painters. I won the job a year ago as the high bidder by quite a considerable amount (well into 5 figures and about 20%). The service and commitment I am willing to deliver in this situation is priceless. I know I have priced to be profitable, deliver the highest possible level of quality and run an experienced crew for the winter. If I took your logic one step further, I could charge for every moment I spend thinking about the execution of this job. People who run large projects would probably agree that alot of the job happens in your head when you are not there - who will perform which tasks, what processes and materials, coordination with other trades, schedule and budget milestones being met, etc. While in a perfect world I could charge a cushy consultant rate for all of this, in reality these are the ancillary items that I do to earn my salary and secure the profit goals established in the estimating and contract. Its different for everyone, and does depend on your company configuration and goals. 

I think NEPS has hit a big fat nail right on the head, that there are too many diverse business models (and we should probably use that term very loosely) here to claim anything as the only way to success.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

So, Scott - you wouldn't pay someone 10% of gross sales for procuring a job for you? If you get the job yourself - don't you deserve that 10%? Do you expect the accountant to work for free? It's all about ROI - if you go and do all the mechanical work on your truck vs. paying a garage to do it - you're basically telling the world that your ROI is better spent doing the work yourself - instead of freeing up your time and going out and selling more work - and potentially procuring more profitable work.

Now I didn't say that as a company that you don't use these little upsell items as a way to sell the value of your company as a way to procure a large job that will keep you gainfully employed - I am all for that.

But what is more true to this matter - your business model is so far apart from these lowballers, you've earned the right to do the little things and not worry about itemizing every last thing. This isn't about your model - we're talking about the guys that run the companies by themselves at $25/hr - and have no real overhead other than the fact they use their personal phone line for their business and their garage as the companies workspace. These are the guys that ruin the trades.


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## cullybear (Mar 10, 2008)

Good post vermont I see contractors doing things that I know cant make them money,but they do it , work terrible long hours and can hardly get by and then complain they get lowballed or cant charge enough.. Improve your systems and make more money


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> So, Scott - you wouldn't pay someone 10% of gross sales for procuring a job for you? If you get the job yourself - don't you deserve that 10%?
> 
> _No. I wouldnt. Its not me procuring any job. Its a combination of alot of factors: marketing (which includes many elements), reputation, presentation, to name a few. Anything in these factors that can be recovered, is recovered and if you are doing these things well, you arent having to work terribly hard to get the sale. I am paid a salary, which I receive no matter what is going on._ _If I am doing that job well, I will see it in the bottom line and be rewarded there. If anything, its more like backwards commission._
> 
> ...


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

how in petes sake is anyone going to estimate this job???

this sounds great, but ive seen people get ridiculed here till the cows come home for less than that.

can you describe this house for me?

how about the square footage?

those 2 will get me there.

a lot could be learned from the exercise,,,but it wont work.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

all this stuff makes me glad im a small shop,,,,,just reading about your pains drives me crazy.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> For the record JTP I wasnt talking about you specifically but a large group in general .....including myself.


Chris-- I could see where you thought I was responding in a defensive manner. But, indeed I did not think you were directing your comments to me specifically. I want others to know how I do basic business. The point of this post was: Until you know what your business goals are, you can't come up with a model to achieve them.

JTP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Plainpainter Said: "...we're talking about the guys that run the companies by themselves at $25/hr - and have no real overhead other than the fact they use their personal phone line for their business and their garage as the companies workspace. These are the guys that ruin the trades."

JTP replies:

Plainpainter-- Say what? I am one of those guys you refer to. I also am aware of my direct and indirect expenses and what I must earn to make a living. My labor rate, as a direct expense is $30/hr. I add $16.00 per hour for indirect expenses. So--if I estimate a job to run 50 hours for me alone and I do it by myself--I am charging $46 per hour or $2300. Now add in materials, pick-up charges of 15 % of $2300.00 + 10% cushion for problems.

Labor = 46 x 50 hours--------------- 2300
Materials @ 15 % of 2300-------------- 345
Total 2645
10% Cushion-------------------------- 265
______
Total Bid $2910

There are some other factors involved, but this is the basic calculation. Can you figure out what I am walking away with? No because the job isn't done yet and the final, therefore, real figures are out in future land. I could do better or worse or be right on the money. What I do know is that my experience tells me 50 hours of labor is about right to get the job done.

Now--And I know this post is a little off topic--If the little guys use a model similar to mine, they're not lowballing and can make a living. 

Brian, Scott, and Chris have there own separate business models. They are distinct and very individual in approach and thought. Is one better than the other? Is my way to doing basic business better? Again--the only people who can answer that question are the contractors themselves. 

I just bid a church job for $17,500 and change--I think I'm going to get it. I have a temporary partner who can produce. Do you see anything I can do to improve upon this? Again--you cannot answer because you do not know my goals.

The whole point of this post is--Heck--we're all different. And, we can ALL do better no matter what point we're at.

JTP


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

JTP said:


> Plainpainter Said: "...we're talking about the guys that run the companies by themselves at $25/hr - and have no real overhead other than the fact they use their personal phone line for their business and their garage as the companies workspace. These are the guys that ruin the trades."
> 
> JTP replies:
> 
> ...


JTP, the guys Plain (IMO) is referring to are not adding the 16$ ah hour for indirect and certainly not adding 10% cushion, there materials are not bumped up and no pick up charges... They are bidding at 25$ hr plus cheap paint...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> JTP, the guys Plain (IMO) is referring to are not adding the 16$ ah hour for indirect and certainly not adding 10% cushion, there materials are not bumped up and no pick up charges... They are bidding at 25$ hr plus cheap paint...


Exactly.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Good Stuff:thumbsup:
Something I will add...
I dont know how most of you started your businesses but for me I kept looking at my $500 a week take home paycheck and realized that this wasn't going to get me anywhere but old. I decided if I could pull down 1 $2500 job a month I would be much better off (being my own boss, shorter days, tee shirts, shorts and radio blastin', nobody barking about long breaks, etc.)
This was my financial "goal" :whistling2:

Now, my intentions were not to lowball, but to simply feed my family, and do it on my terms. I remember my wife stressing over charging 500 bucks for a lil Graco 180 and then flipping!! when I said I needed a grand for liability insurance. Who knew what the hell overhead was?? I just wanted it so I looked more legit.



> JTP, the guys Plain (IMO) is referring to are not adding the 16$ ah hour for indirect and certainly not adding 10% cushion, there materials are not bumped up and no pick up charges... They are bidding at 25$ hr plus cheap paint...


Who wasn't there first year??? (except the cheap paint part maybe)
Its taken me years to learn how not to bid.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

This is about money? 

I thought it was turning into "you ain't s%*T cause' ya don't have office help and a business space". So you can't amount to much. You cannot be a serious business person and yo mama must pay your bills. I know all about you from computer posts and I am so much better and cooler because my way is the only way. (you lowballing hacks!)


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'd like a show of hands from all those here whose office personell is not married to them.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

And just as a quick follow up, maybe folks ought to consider the total of all contracts they have in hand so far for '09 before espousing recipes for success.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> I'd like a show of hands from all those here whose office personell is not married to them.


I'd be lost without my wife:yes: She rocks:gunsmilie:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

My office is in my house, my shop is in my backyard, we outsource the bookkeeping, accounting and legal, I do all the marketing, sales, billing and customer relations, my wife keeps everything filed every week and keeps me from losing my mind. 

I agree with whoever said above that the office and administrative support teams, warehouse/shop space are luxury items. Putting your toolboxes in your garage, or your girlfriends or mothers, doesnt constitute overhead that needs to be recovered, at least not in my mind.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I'd like a show of hands from all those here whose office personell is not married to them.



Not mine, she is too busy doing her work and school which seems to have lasted an eternity... :whistling2:

I do all the office work except payroll/taxes which I farm out...


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

You are Here. Where do you want to go now? Map it out-find the best way to get there. If you are reading this thread, you are in the map field. Now--find your way to what you really want.

You may just want a little extra beer money. You may want to build a fortune. Don't bs yourself and don't bs the real deals here. The real deals don't have to prove a thing to anyone.

Who are the real deals the wannabes should consider? I know who I listen to here.

JTP


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> And just as a quick follow up, maybe folks ought to consider the total of all contracts they have in hand so far for '09 before espousing recipes for success.


 :yes:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

this is the finest thread ive read on painttalk

good stuff.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> how in petes sake is anyone going to estimate this job???
> 
> this sounds great, but ive seen people get ridiculed here till the cows come home for less than that.
> 
> ...


I have to agree ,,,,,,,,wont work here. I thought I could give specs and folks could bid ,,,,,,, and we could compare notes and maybe something could be learned,,,,,,oh well.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i wish it could work,,,it would be the cats meow


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Plain .....Just curious .... It is obvoius that you no longer want to be a paint contractor. Your site has no painting anywhere on it except your name. If you hate the trade so much why waste your time here? When are you changing your business name. I bet it throws people off. 

Just Plain Gutter Cleaning
Just Plain Decks
Just Plain Pressure Washing
Just dont ask me to paint


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS,

I think the bid thing could work. Have a PDF print, state window type, number/kind of trim finishes, number colors on walls, and if the print is good, it would work (at least for new construction work).


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> NEPS,
> 
> I think the bid thing could work. Have a PDF print, state window type, number/kind of trim finishes, number colors on walls, and if the print is good, it would work (at least for new construction work).


I was actually going to use 5 jobs we completed last year. I was going to show a few pics and basically list the services needed and the specs for the job. I bid blind off prints all the time but I see how some could have issues. I dont want to get into pdf's. I thought I could list it in one post. I would then reveal my price and profit margins for those specific jobs to use as a benchmark. I think too many inflated egos would blow up their prices. Funny how many people here can paint a room for $200 while others charge $3000 for the same room. It would suck if I put time into it and laid myself out there to find out 75% of the data was false.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

When I first read it, I thought it would be a great idea. On further review, its seems like NEPS would be doing alot of work to try to help people learn about pricing. Based on the types of pricing/estimating questions that come up here on threads, a more comprehensive estimating seminar might be in order. Kind of like the old saying, give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach him to fish, he eats for life. There would probably be alot of fish being thrown around in here. :blink:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It would suck if people did not use their true numbers, then it would be a complete waste of time and no one would learn anything. I like the idea though.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

It would be great if we could have a closed or a private thread. Invitation only for reading and responses. I bid alot of work and I always have questions. We could get the likes of Harry to come in and commentate. It could be useful for all ranges of experience.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I like the idea. I would be more interested in the "mechanics" of the bid/estimate/proposal. A breakdown of production rates/time, materials, overhead, etc. in a % form. The price can be X, it is all the variables that need to taken into consideration.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I feel the most important part of bidding is knowing you audience and your competition. That is where the true gain in profit margins are earned.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

high fibre said:


> this is the finest thread ive read on painttalk
> 
> good stuff.


I agree.


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## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

Bender said:


> Good Stuff:thumbsup:
> Something I will add...
> I dont know how most of you started your businesses but for me I kept looking at my $500 a week take home paycheck and realized that this wasn't going to get me anywhere but old. Classic quote :notworthy:
> 
> ...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> My office is in my house, my shop is in my backyard, we outsource the bookkeeping, accounting and legal, I do all the marketing, sales, billing and customer relations, my wife keeps everything filed every week and keeps me from losing my mind.
> .


Sounds kinda like my home. Plus you benefit from tax write offs from using your home.


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## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

To ***** or not to *****; everything else is semantics.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I have to agree ,,,,,,,,wont work here. I thought I could give specs and folks could bid ,,,,,,, and we could compare notes and maybe something could be learned,,,,,,oh well.


So I was wrong about you getting us to do that bid you were struggling with for you ,,,,,,,?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> So I was wrong about you getting us to do that bid you were struggling with for you ,,,,,,,?


busted! :whistling2:


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> busted! :whistling2:


Do you have to small text? I thought you were calling me something until I got my glasses on


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I'd like a show of hands from all those here whose office personell is not married to them.


I am not married to him, I would never...
he is not very attractive


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## inthefinish (Jan 12, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Yes - but not only are you not compensating yourself for every 'hat' you wear in your own company. Not affording office help, business space - also begs the question?
> 
> The thing about lowballers, what gets most guys mad - is that how can you compete with someone who's hellbent on doing lots of work for free?
> It's not that they are cheaper or have less overhead - they just aren't charging the customers for rent of their own garage, now the business has taken it over. They don't charge for all the time spent on the road delivering estimates, all the time meeting with web designers. Heck - they probably think that truck they use is their responsibility and not the customers.
> ...


 
I wonder if I can charge for guard dog training for that blasted cockapoo that's living in my shop.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> It would be great if we could have a closed or a private thread. Invitation only for reading and responses. I bid alot of work and I always have questions. We could get the likes of Harry to come in and commentate. It could be useful for all ranges of experience.


I agree. I think for those active members there should be a hidden little section for the bunch to talk about things they don't want every joe shmo out there sticking their noses in.

As for the estimates, I'm down with giving them an honest shot. If you wanted to make life easy, go on one of the many sites who offer house plans for sale. Some have pretty good interior layout with measurements along with exterior sketches that would allow one to understand the job pretty well. They don't have to be new construction though. Can assume it's a re-paint with X colors going to X color, damages here/there, etc.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

JNLP said:


> I agree. I think for those active members there should be a hidden little section for the bunch to talk about things they don't want every joe shmo out there sticking their noses in.
> 
> As for the estimates, I'm down with giving them an honest shot. If you wanted to make life easy, go on one of the many sites who offer house plans for sale. Some have pretty good interior layout with measurements along with exterior sketches that would allow one to understand the job pretty well. They don't have to be new construction though. Can assume it's a re-paint with X colors going to X color, damages here/there, etc.


for many of us who would be doing this we could set up a separate page with a chat room or something similar that you would be invited too etc.. that way it would be off site from PT


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I love it when guys love to justify their low pricing and their 'low' overhead and blah blah blah. If I had a nickel for everytime I found out through the 'little' birdy network - that in fact so and so contractor, his girlfriend pays all the monthly bills. Enough said.
> 
> Another thing that separates lowballers from professionals. Lowballers are constantly talking about being 'fair' to their customers. Where as a professional may be doing well financially - and then begins to wonder - what if I raise my pricing 5% across the boards, will everyone abandon me? Then they try it out - and find that no in fact not everyone abandoned - in fact very few did. Then they keep trying it and trying.
> 
> Another thing wrong with this whole lowballer attitude. I know dozens of guys locally that tell me - don't bother hiring white americans! Reverse racism! They're all like - it ain't worth putting up with guys that want to leave 3:30 every day - then they tell me the foreigners are worth their weight in gold - and now they all charge $25-$30 man hours - then they tell me how to hide over 50% of the money. And now I can see how they are really profitable, but it's a model built upon a house of cards. It's to the point now - where you have to adopt every single illegal method just to survive now in this industry. Gone are the days you want to hire legal americans and be above board. It's sad.


 
This is some funny stuff comming from someone who openly admitted (on harry's board) to being a lowballer, because you dont have enough leads. 

So practice what you preach, or dont preach!!!. please


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> for many of us who would be doing this we could set up a separate page with a chat room or something similar that you would be invited too etc.. that way it would be off site from PT


TopSecretPaintersHideout.com is currently available. :thumbup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

JNLP said:


> TopSecretPaintersHideout.com is currently available. :thumbup:


Nice!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I was watching my son play X-Box live tonight and I thought. " Thats what we need!"
We could talk live, and if we felt like the other person is full of BS, we could kill them:blink:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Bender said:


> I was watching my son play X-Box live tonight and I thought. " Thats what we need!"
> We could talk live, and if we felt like the other person is full of BS, we could kill them:blink:


Count me in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :gun_bandana:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Come try and get you some. 

:tank:


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## inthefinish (Jan 12, 2009)




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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

"The dead know only one thing. It is better to be alive"
Full Metal Jacket


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Will there be a secret hand shake or code word to get in??? Oh yea and no girls allowed!!!!!


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

is plainpainter really a lowballer?


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## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Will there be a secret hand shake or code word to get in??? Oh yea and no girls allowed!!!!!


 No girls? I'm out.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

high fibre said:


> is plainpainter really a lowballer?


Absolutely not - the only lowballing I have done is in the beginning due to ignorance, but that's it. I lost over 90% of my painting estimates in '08 - I had another business going, so I wasn't budging on pricing, half way through '08 I didn't care if I didn't get a single painting job, bidding $40/man-hours in a wealthy area and having people say I was expensive - utter ridiculousness.


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## cy hundley (Aug 17, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> for many of us who would be doing this we could set up a separate page with a chat room or something similar that you would be invited too etc.. that way it would be off site from PT


I think this open proposal idea is a good one. I am suprised it was suggested however do to the overwhelming denial, in the past, to respond to any serious job proposal questions, so having said that, Why all the secrecy, and old boy network mentality. We are all on a very good forum right now. If I can learn something from a "Joe Schmo" so be it. If I can teach something to a "Joe Schmo" , even better, I believe you put out 2 or 3 possible jobs, small and large, let people bid, let them justify and listen to feed back. Maybe we all could learn something, maybe we all could understand why our competitors do what they do....or perhaps it could turn into a verbal blood bath, all the above being in my opinion worthwhile, and entertaining.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

In our PDCA Chapter meetings we OPENLY discuss sqft pricing/hourly rates/over head/material rates(what price your rep will give you) and we all work in the same areas


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Plain-
If you ever looked into yourcostcenter.com you would have realized that not all companies charge the same. I was in a room with the creator, Brian Drucks and a bunch of painters at a Sherwin-Williams trade show. He asked a simple question~ "What do you charge to paint one side of one door?" You should have heard the responses. They ranged from $40 to $80. Inflated to look like they are doing everything right. These guys didn't look like they even owned a paint brush, for gods sake, yet wanted everyone to think they were Trump. I knew exactly what it cost me to paint one side of that door. Our costs will ALWAYS be lower than yours or for the most part, most guys. This does not make us a lowballer. We have lots guys cutting into and paying into all of our overhead. You and most on this site have one or at least under 5 guys cutting into overhead. I HATE the fact that most here loose a job and get pissed at the low baller that won the job. Yes sometimes they might be low in price, but I have no clue what they need to live on a day to day basis. 
You said that you bidded $40 an hour and the HO thought that you were really high in price. Did you ever think that you overbidded your time on the job, and it wasn't your hourly rate? We can charge down to $32.50 per hour, per man and live a great life....and earn a great living. Most other companies have to charge, $50- $60 an hour and probably earn less.
If you have no clue what is going on behind the doors of business, keep your nose out. I still think of your old post saying that after all said and done you could have worked at Lowes and earned more on the year. Not too credible...in my eyes.
NEPS, lets get those jobs up quickly. I would hope that everyone would be honest, but I doubt it.
Brian on the other site wanted to do the same thing. He posted a couple of rooms and everyone saw everyones numbers. He was going to do one where you had to e-mail him your price, and then he would post them.
Vermont, my hand is up. We also have a girl helping out as well. But the wife is the best.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

premierpainter said:


> Plain-
> Did you ever think that you overbidded your time on the job, and it wasn't your hourly rate? We can charge down to $32.50 per hour, per man and live a great life....and earn a great living. Most other companies have to charge, $50- $60 an hour and probably earn less.
> If you have no clue what is going on behind the doors of business, keep your nose out. I still think of your old post saying that after all said and done you could have worked at Lowes and earned more on the year. Not too credible...in my eyes.
> .


Do I overbid my time? Hardly - I bid jobs at how fast I work, the average painter can cut and roll 800-1000 sq.ft a day. If I take your rate of 32.50 an hour. That's $32.50 you charge in labor for every 125 square feet. I can accomplish that 17 times over in residential setting by myself in 8 hours. That means I could charge $69/hr using those rates with my speed and our estimates would be equal in price. 

As to the comment of I would have been better off working at Lowe's - that was merely an honest explanation of an exterior job that went south - it's been over a year and half, and I still don't really know what went wrong. But I have looked at the #'s for that job - and realized that my 'help' who was confined to the lower half of the home reported 47% of total billable hours - due to the ease of working up to the first floor, I figured it should have taken at best only a 1/3 of the total time, being a psuedo 3 story colonial. I have taken much advice and realize now that my downfall is that I employ white americans who think about wrapping up a job at 2:30 in the afternoon - and they want lots of dough. The reading is on the wall - I won't be hiring americans any time soon from now on - central americans have a work ethic, and want to put in extra time - thus getting projects done at a faster rate.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

cy hundley said:


> I think this open proposal idea is a good one. I am suprised it was suggested however do to the overwhelming denial, in the past, to respond to any serious job proposal questions, so having said that, Why all the secrecy, and old boy network mentality. We are all on a very good forum right now. If I can learn something from a "Joe Schmo" so be it. If I can teach something to a "Joe Schmo" , even better, I believe you put out 2 or 3 possible jobs, small and large, let people bid, let them justify and listen to feed back. Maybe we all could learn something, maybe we all could understand why our competitors do what they do....or perhaps it could turn into a verbal blood bath, all the above being in my opinion worthwhile, and entertaining.


Its more about being able to trust the numbers that come out of the proposed idea... What good is the lesson if all the numbers that were throw out into the open forum were bogus?? we would accomplish nothing..


As too Aaron61, I am sure all the guys in your chapter your talking numbers with are guy you would respect competing against and not some of the yahoos that post pricing questions here...


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> In our PDCA Chapter meetings we OPENLY discuss sqft pricing/hourly rates/over head/material rates(what price your rep will give you) and we all work in the same areas




I used to work at a local (the biggest in the area) ICIPaints store. I shot the bull with all the guys coming in. They would talk to me about prices and trial and tribulations of being out in the field and asked about others also. Once I went out on my own, visiting the store and seeing these guys up there, there was never any change to price talk. We always talk about what we are getting/giving.. products/techniques. There is TOO much work out there to be worried what the next guy is going to charge. Weither the H/O or business owner wants you or not, there is just too much work out there. I see houses in dire need of paint all over the place.

I don't think that disclosing price hurts anyone, and for the lessons I have learned the hard way, I would gladly share to help someone else not loose their ass/summer $$$.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'll put something together for a thread for tonight ..........


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I hear the sound of pencils sharpening around the country. I am already factoring in the cost of lead acquisition based on my monthly internet access cost and depreciation on my laptop. This will be a learning experience for all, to be sure.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I cant wait to hear the bitching and moaning about my specs


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

You wear specs:confused1:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I have got pdf prints for a 6,000 sq foot commercial I'd be happy to offer!:whistling2:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Absolutely not - the only lowballing I have done is in the beginning due to ignorance, but that's it. I lost over 90% of my painting estimates in '08 - I had another business going, so I wasn't budging on pricing, half way through '08 I didn't care if I didn't get a single painting job, bidding $40/man-hours in a wealthy area and having people say I was expensive - utter ridiculousness.


 
sure thing plain painter,,,if you hire hispanics, youll see your profit margin skyrocket. This is the way to go.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> As to the comment of I would have been better off working at Lowe's - that was merely an honest explanation of an exterior job that went south - it's been over a year and half, and I still don't really know what went wrong. But I have looked at the #'s for that job - and realized that my 'help' who was confined to the lower half of the home reported 47% of total billable hours - due to the ease of working up to the first floor, I figured it should have taken at best only a 1/3 of the total time, being a psuedo 3 story colonial. I have taken much advice and realize now that my downfall is that I employ white americans who think about wrapping up a job at 2:30 in the afternoon - and they want lots of dough. The reading is on the wall - I won't be hiring americans any time soon from now on - central americans have a work ethic, and want to put in extra time - thus getting projects done at a faster rate.


 
Dan

Just wondering about your research methodology here. How many employees have you had over the years to bring you to this conclusion. You also have to take some responsibility for your ability to manage. I cant imagine doing an exterior where you have one guy and you tell him to paint the bottom half of the house while you go up a ladder and paint the top half. Thats not managing. You have to train people to your processes, no matter how experienced they say they are. Then, you have to supervise and hold them accountable for quality and production. From posts I have read of yours, it doesnt sound like you are into managing. Its great that you have a new passion for marketing and ROI but if you cant make it happen in the field, its not going to fly right. Sometimes when you identify problems in your business, the answers are right square in the mirror.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Do I overbid my time? Hardly - I bid jobs at how fast I work, the average painter can cut and roll 800-1000 sq.ft a day. If I take your rate of 32.50 an hour. That's $32.50 you charge in labor for every 125 square feet. I can accomplish that 17 times over in residential setting by myself in 8 hours. That means I could charge $69/hr using those rates with my speed and our estimates would be equal in price.
> quote]
> 
> Hard to believe you couldnt get a job for $25 per hour.
> ...


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> Just wondering about your research methodology here. How many employees have you had over the years to bring you to this conclusion. You also have to take some responsibility for your ability to manage. I cant imagine doing an exterior where you have one guy and you tell him to paint the bottom half of the house while you go up a ladder and paint the top half. Thats not managing. You have to train people to your processes, no matter how experienced they say they are. Then, you have to supervise and hold them accountable for quality and production. From posts I have read of yours, it doesnt sound like you are into managing. Its great that you have a new passion for marketing and ROI but if you cant make it happen in the field, its not going to fly right. Sometimes when you identify problems in your business, the answers are right square in the mirror.


manage???supervise???hold accountable??? that translates to hand holding. if i had to spend that much time babysitting a worker theyd be gone.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

It may not work for everyone. Alot of people, even though they choose the road of self employment, want to take no responsibility. Then they complain about how no one can paint as well as they can or no one works hard. Its important to create expectations and maintain them. Thats not babysitting.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

high fibre said:


> manage???supervise???hold accountable??? that translates to hand holding. if i had to spend that much time babysitting a worker theyd be gone.


Manage show up in the morning and go over scope of work.

Supervise show up at lunch time check over work.

Hold accountable, If something needs to be fixed, the person who did it wrong needs to fix it. A common mistake for small contractors is to do the hard stuff themselves, Example Plain doing the highstuff. I did that at first too, I was the guy who alsways did the dog house's, or worked off the 40 ft ladder etc... This not the way to set up a good crew imo.

hand holding, no I dont think so. 

Once you do these things and are comfortable with your crew leader, you dont have to even go to the job sight. This is the kind of thing you do in the begining to make sure everything is going right, that is if you care!!

just my opion, as usuall I agree with Scott.


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## cy hundley (Aug 17, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Its more about being able to trust the numbers that come out of the proposed idea... What good is the lesson if all the numbers that were throw out into the open forum were bogus?? we would accomplish nothing..
> 
> 
> As too Aaron61, I am sure all the guys in your chapter your talking numbers with are guy you would respect competing against and not some of the yahoos that post pricing questions here...


I see what you are saying. I would begin by hoping, and thinking that the people who are participating are not throwing out bogus numbers, and if asked to explain their #'s they could. We wont know till we try, ALL the numbers can't be bogus, can they?, ALL of us can't be yahoos.......


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

There's a fine line bewteen babysitting and managing . . . . or maybe not so fine. 

When I hired people, the interview process was supposed to find those with skills/attitudes that would mesh with by business. But face it, no help ever comes as a perfect fit. 

One must retrain and "reshape" but still not beat pride, dignity, motivation, responsibility, and creativity out of a worker. That, in my opinion, is the meaning of managing. If they don't adapt quickly to your expectations and you find yourself micromanaging, then someone is not doing their job - either them or you. 

And there ain't nothing the matter with not having the where-with-all to manage correctly, but just don't lie to yourself and pretend to be something that ain't in your nature.

Yes, I am single man shop. I know and am secure with my strengths and weakenesses.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

if im taking time out to teach them, they should be paying me.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

high fibre said:


> if im taking time out to teach them, they should be paying me.


You get what you hire. Yeah we've all been lied to by employees that "just didnt seem to work out". References? Who really checks? Now days you cant say anything about anyone without taking the chance of getting sued. Thats why I hate having to hire new employees. Every year I go to a couple "Liars Lunches", (pro shows), and hear the same crap. Getting to the point I'd rather go to a bad AA meeting.

Read Arch's last few lines in the above post, that says it all.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm just sitting here eagerly waiting for Plain to give us his daily wisdom. :jester:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Aw hell, read Arch's last post completely. Memorize it. One of the best things I've read here in awhile. He should make himself a manager.:notworthy:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Aw hell, read Arch's last post completely. Memorize it. One of the best things I've read here in awhile. He should make himself a manager.:notworthy:


thanks, but I am what I am because I know what I know - - about myself :whistling2:

I work well WITH people (clients, designers, partners, etc), no so well FOR others or having others work FOR me.

Authority issues ??? Me ??? naaahhh !!! 

(I'm sure this little public admission will come back to bite me  )

But I've gotten better over the years :thumbsup: (or is that BITTER ?)


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

holy cow it's getting deep


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

yup, a real nasty one just laid down


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

daArch said:


> I work well WITH people (clients, designers, partners, etc), no so well FOR others


You hit that nail on the head
I am what you call unemployable:yes:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i like that word unemployable,,,lol,,,thats probably why 1/2 of us are in this gig


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

Bender said:


> You hit that nail on the head
> I am what you call unemployable:yes:


same here.:thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> i like that word unemployable,,,lol,,,thats probably why 1/2 of us are in this gig


I'd hire you John ..... my mens room sign is looking a little worn


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I'd hire you John ..... my mens room sign is looking a little worn


 
post the specs and ill pm you the price.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

*MENS ,,,,,,,ROOM*

Color= True Blue
Font size=Large


Please place a notice beside the 'Wet Paint' signs stating "This is not an instruction".


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

is this for a glory hole?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

high fibre said:


> is this for a glory hole?


Some people refer to them as a "John"

:jester:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

lol uch:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

it would be my first,,,but hey, times are tough all over


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)




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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

c'mon John ....I cant believe you missed this one


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