# Talking about RRP at the paint store



## DeanV

The store manager said that one of the painters had taken a RRP course that was done by a lawyer from Chicago. The lawyer recommended that everyone change business names/form a new business going forward since the law can be applied going backward from NOW for MORE than three years. I realize some of this stuff was in place prior, but no one was doing hardly anything like what this requires.

This is not something I have heard before. Hopefully it does not point to the direction that lawyers want to take this.

The more I read about this, the more I feel like running as fast as I can from this stuff except for existing customers. Between conflicting messages from the class trainers, to FHA loans having different requirements (a mortgage broker I know almost never writes anything other than FHA loans), etc.

Why is it the more I hear, the less comfortable I feel with these projects?


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## RCP

Lawsuits over Lead have been going on forever, as have the dangers of Lead. 
Before April 22, you were just as liable if you were negligent working in a Lead home, even 2, 5, 10 years ago, maybe even more so, at least now you are "certified" and documenting the process.


The RRP only holds us accountable for following safe work procedures.
Well, and we are now "on record" and the public has a higher awareness!

Some sites you might like, or not!

Government Lawsuits Against the Lead Industry


Lead Poisoning Lawsuits and the Lead Industry


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## nEighter

A lead guy who I spoke with here who does testing said that you don't usually see lead on siding or on walls. That the majority 90%+ are on window sills and around door frames. That the leaded paint was for high impact areas.. I didnt know that because I wasn't painting in the 60's or before.. so that is something to think about. Also, how can anyone say what a level was on a property prior to you being there unless you test? AND I guess if that was the case (a contamination of soil) I am sure you could go to a home like it and test those levels to get an idea of what that house was anyway prior to any work being done.

SO basically the homeowner should have the home tested prior to calling anyone anyway. They should know if there is lead present and the levels if so.


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## nEighter

chris got in before my post was posted


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## vermontpainter

It may be a regional thing. Here is one I looked at today. Siding. Lead. No test needed.


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## vermontpainter

Front porch. Lead everywhere.


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## DeanV

When I was working for another painter on a old cottage (early 1900's) we scraped the front porch, no masks, no "amended" water misting, no nothing and when I swept up the front porch the dust pan was HEAVY from the amount of lead in the paint. So that is where all my brain cells went!


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> Front porch. Lead everywhere.


Not with a 10 foot pole!
Did you bid it?:blink:


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## VanDamme

vermontpainter said:


> It may be a regional thing. Here is one I looked at today. Siding. Lead. No test needed.


I ran away from one like this a year or so ago. It was easy to test because there were already mega-chips laying on the ground.

Actually, I just told the owner I was too busy to take on a project that involved.


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## RCP

DeanV said:


> When I was working for another painter on a old cottage (early 1900's) we scraped the front porch, no masks, no "amended" water misting, no nothing and when I swept up the front porch the dust pan was HEAVY from the amount of lead in the paint. So that is where all my brain cells went!


Haha, but it isn't you that the EPA is worried about, it is your employees, the children, the nieghbor's children!


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## vermontpainter

I recommended that the cost of prep/prime/paint might start to approach the cost of replacement. (I am a big fan of replacement). I had a number in my head but did not spit it out. Why spend thousands upon thousands to repair something that still won't be perfect and wont have nearly the lifespan of replacement? Thats where a guy like n8er should have the advantage over conventional paint contractors. He can sell both.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> When I was working for another painter on a old cottage (early 1900's) we scraped the front porch, no masks, no "amended" water misting, no nothing and when I swept up the front porch the dust pan was HEAVY from the amount of lead in the paint. So that is where all my brain cells went!


Between the ages of 15-21, I worked on a buttpile of these types of homes. It accounts for most of my impairments.


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## vermontpainter

I spoke with one of my builders today who took the rrp course on saturday. The instructor told the builders that with their cr, they could train subs. 

Why did I just spend $600 again?


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## vermontpainter

The builder I was speaking with found the biggest irony as a builder to be that if they are doing a complete demo, level and stuff in a dumpster, they dont need to do anything for rrp even if its leadapalooza. If they are replacing the siding on that same house, all he!! breaks loose. :blink:


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> I spoke with one of my builders today who took the rrp course on saturday. The instructor told the builders that with their cr, they could train subs.
> Why did I just spend $600 again?


Sort of, all subs must be a Certified Firm, a GC could use "their" CR to oversee job site, and he would be responsible for all facets of job, including training your employees.



vermontpainter said:


> The builder I was speaking with found the biggest irony as a builder to be that if they are doing a complete demo, level and stuff in a dumpster, they dont need to do anything for rrp even if its leadapalooza. If they are replacing the siding on that same house, all he!! breaks loose. :blink:


Crazy huh! But I guess there are no residents to worry about, eh?!


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## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> Sort of, all subs must be a Certified Firm, a GC could use "their" CR to oversee job site, and he would be responsible for all facets of job, including training your employees.
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy huh! But I guess there are no residents to worry about, eh?!


 
Theres still neighbors and an environment.


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## NEPS.US

This new lead stuff is gonna open up all kinds of doors.


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## DeanV

I am going to start taking law courses over the internet.


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## NEPS.US

Try lawtalk.com. If they are anything like painter's you should be ready for the Bar in 4 months.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> Try lawtalk.com. If they are anything like painter's you should be ready for the Bar in 4 months.


Would it take that long?


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## DeanV

I wonder if they will let me know what the going rate is? Or do you think they would care if I just did not even pass the Bar and just starting practicing law any way?

Maybe I could take some cases and just sub out the work to some college kids working their way through law school? 

If I just lined up the cases and subbed it out to younger, less experienced lawyers, would I still need to take classes and pass the bar or could I just pass that burden on to the subs?


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I wonder if they will let me know what the going rate is? Or do you think they would care if I just did not even pass the Bar and just starting practicing law any way?
> 
> Maybe I could take some cases and just sub out the work to some college kids working their way through law school?
> 
> If I just lined up the cases and subbed it out to younger, less experienced lawyers, would I still need to take classes and pass the bar or could I just pass that burden on to the subs?


Sad day when it appears that the legal field has higher ethical standards than the craftsmen.


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## Paintuh4Life

> Also, how can anyone say what a level was on a property prior to you being there unless you test? AND I guess if that was the case (a contamination of soil) I am sure you could go to a home like it and test those levels to get an idea of what that house was anyway prior to any work being done.
> 
> SO basically the homeowner should have the home tested prior to calling anyone anyway. They should know if there is lead present and the levels if so.


This is a crucial point you make. If you go to the doctor to be tested for anything (Blood pressure, PSA, etc), you must establish a baseline. If you don't test for the presence of lead before you start a project, you could be held liable for any possible contamination. How come the EPA doesn't insist on this?!


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## aaron61

Paintuh4Life said:


> This is a crucial point you make. If you go to the doctor to be tested for anything (Blood pressure, PSA, etc), you must establish a baseline. If you don't test for the presence of lead before you start a project, you could be held liable for any possible contamination. How come the EPA doesn't insist on this?!


WTF:blink: is this sarcasm? Because I'm pretty sure they do!!!!!!


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## Paintuh4Life

> aaron61 said:
> 
> 
> 
> WTF:blink: is this sarcasm? Because I'm pretty sure they do!!!!!!
Click to expand...

No, this is not sarcasm. I just took the class, and I didn't hear anything about testing PRIOR to starting a job. If I'm mistaken, I'd love to be corrected. And BTW, lighten up, dude. I'm just sayin'.


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## aaron61

Paintuh4Life said:


> No, this is not sarcasm. I just took the class, and I didn't hear anything about testing PRIOR to starting a job. If I'm mistaken, I'd love to be corrected. And BTW, lighten up, dude. I'm just sayin'.


My apologis for offending you good sir,but I'm pretty sure that's the whole point! To test before hand so you know what you are dealing with.What did they tell you to test after??:whistling2:


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## RCP

Testing is not required, again, RRP is not about eliminating/abatement, it is reducing the further spread of lead dust. As it stands now, you don't have to test before or after (this may change in September). You only have to do a "white glove" test for the presence of dust.

In some states, if you test and it is positive, it may have to be referred to a Lead Abatement Company and trigger OHSA rules. It also puts the homeowner in the position of disclosing known lead if they sell. 
In some cases, it may be better to assume lead and proceed.


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> Testing is not required, again, RRP is not about eliminating/abatement, it is reducing the further spread of lead dust. As it stands now, you don't have to test before or after (this may change in September). You only have to do a "white glove" test for the presence of dust.
> 
> In some states, if you test and it is positive, it may have to be referred to a Lead Abatement Company and trigger OHSA rules. It also puts the homeowner in the position of disclosing known lead if they sell.
> In some cases, it may be better to assume lead and proceed.


What?????? are you sure Chris? If we are not testing before then what are the test kits for and how do you know if there is lead?????
I was told that before begining any work to test substrates.


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## aaron61

Page # 7-6
Each component to be renovated or impacted by renovation must be tested.


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## RCP

*§ 745.61 Scope and applicability.*

 top(a) This subpart identifies lead-based paint hazards.
(b) The standards for lead-based paint hazards apply to target housing and child-occupied facilities.
(c) Nothing in this subpart requires the owner of property(ies) subject to these standards to evaluate the property(ies) for the presence of lead-based paint hazards or take any action to control these conditions if one or more of them is identified.

Sean explains it well here.


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> *§ 745.61 Scope and applicability.*
> 
> top(a) This subpart identifies lead-based paint hazards.
> (b) The standards for lead-based paint hazards apply to target housing and child-occupied facilities.
> (c) Nothing in this subpart requires the owner of property(ies) subject to these standards to evaluate the property(ies) for the presence of lead-based paint hazards or take any action to control these conditions if one or more of them is identified.
> 
> Sean explains it well here.


This says Owners. I thought we are refering to contractors testing before work???? I'm so confused


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## RCP

I know, it's crazy isn't it. Are you ready to strangle me yet?:jester:

I have seen nothing that requires testing.


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> I know, it's crazy isn't it. Are you ready to strangle me yet?:jester:
> 
> I have seen nothing that requires testing.


Let me make sure we are talking apples to apples here.I guess testing isn't required as long as you work as if there is lead.
In the training book pg# 3-1 it says in Module 3:

to determine if lead based paint is present &
to use EPA recognized test kits to check for lead based paint.

Where am I missing the boat??


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## RCP

aaron61 said:


> Let me make sure we are talking apples to apples here.I guess testing isn't required as long as you work as if there is lead.
> In the training book pg# 3-1 it says in Module 3:
> 
> to determine if lead based paint is present &
> to use EPA recognized test kits to check for lead based paint.
> 
> Where am I missing the boat??


You are right, you can not test and assume there is lead and use Lead Safe Practices.
If you decide to "determine if lead based paint is present" then you have two options.
If Negative
Hope you did the testing correctly, not use Lead Safe Practices.
If Positive
Hope the levels are not high enough that OHSA kicks in and you have to do air monitoring and respirators. And then there is LHSR to contend with.

The testing requirements may change in Sept from a "positive/not positive" test to "level of lead" result.

Kind of like, "don't ask, don't tell":blink:


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## aaron61

So it's telling me to test then but if I don't I should assume lead is present.


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## RCP

Right, you have to weigh the benefits. If it is a simple job that requires a bit of extra cleaning, why bother? I feel for the guys that do demo, having to bag, wipe, contain will be much more difficult.


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## Paintuh4Life

Let me clarify my original point, which was in response to another post. I was talking about the possibility of lead in the environment as a result of, perhaps, the homeowner or a previous contractor's work. Testing for that would let you know there was a problem before you got started on that project. I wasn't talking about testing for lead on a particular substrate. 

Sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## aaron61

Now you tell me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RCP

Paintuh4Life said:


> Let me clarify my original point, which was in response to another post. I was talking about the possibility of lead in the environment as a result of, perhaps, the homeowner or a previous contractor's work. Testing for that would let you know there was a problem before you got started on that project. I wasn't talking about testing for lead on a particular substrate.
> 
> Sorry for any misunderstanding.


A lot of guys feel the way the rule is, that if you test it, you own it!


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## aaron61

You know I believe that it's great that we are all talking about RRP but until 1 of has a real world experience with doing a job and the having the EPA sign off on it we are all just hoping our way is the right way. I still can't believe, that out of all the painters that frequent this site & others, that none have dealt with this yet????


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## DeanV

So far, I have not been able to land a job that needs this stuff done. I have my 4th potential project in the estimating phase now this spring. I need to find out from the city what I need to do with the power washing water first. Then figure out what it will cost to build a framework and plastic to catch the water. Then check on plastic sheeting requirements since one side may need vertical containment when scraping (other house is relatively close).


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## RCP

Dean, have you checked your state laws regarding the water? I know I have read somewhere that you can filter the water n some areas. I saw some of the pumps for this on a supply site.
One guy talked about using 2 by 4's with plastic to create a trough, filter the water and discharge it. Maybe you could see if there is an Abatement Company in your area you could sub it too?


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## bikerboy

aaron61 said:


> You know I believe that it's great that we are all talking about RRP but until 1 of has a real world experience with doing a job and the having the EPA sign off on it we are all just hoping our way is the right way. I still can't believe, that out of all the painters that frequent this site & others, that none have dealt with this yet????


Have one in June, and if the other customer likes the proposal I am doing this weekend, one in July. I'll document my big butt off. (even thinking of buying that flip you had in a recent post)

I am not testing for lead. Just assuming it is there and giving the H/O the opportunity to have it tested by a third party. So far, both H/O's are afraid of finding (then future reporting) lead in their homes.


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