# How do I prevent flashing???



## abldwn (Apr 12, 2011)

Hello all, this is my first time posting here. My customer is happy with all my work except one wall, and a very big wall. Of course I want to make my customer happy the best I can. I painted this one particular wall with a matte finish (which really looks eggshell to me). This wall is in a 120 year old Baltimore row home. So the wall is 10 ft high, and about 80 ft long. And I work alone. When doing an eggshell finish on a wall I try to work as fast as I can so there is less flashing. But this wall was to big for me to do without it flashing. My plan for Tuesday when I attempt to make the customer happy, and repaint the wall is to: put the maximum amount of extender into the paint, and I bought a 18 inch roller with a 9/16th inch microfiber roller sleeve. no open windows, no fans, with the AC on, with my hired helper to cut ahead of me while I roll. 
Any other suggestions are welcome. 

Thanks


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

WElcome aboard. Sounds like you already have a plan. What product are you using?


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## pacific paint (Nov 21, 2015)

Also welcome, stop now and paint it with a dead flat problem solved. 10'x80' your not going to win that one and yes I know they want a washable wall . Cant have it both ways.


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## pacific paint (Nov 21, 2015)

Read the current post( PROBLEM WALL) by jaxson35 in surface preparation section


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## abldwn (Apr 12, 2011)

Behr Matte finish, premium plus.


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## KamRad (Nov 30, 2015)

Good luck


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## racx (May 2, 2015)

Are you cutting the whole wall then rolling it or cutting and roll together?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Apply plenty of material and finish all your roller strokes in one direction. A down stroke is easiest to me. 

The number one cause of flashing on walls seems to me to be sheen differences created by up and down rolling. That revelation, that I read in some paint specs somewhere, has been a tremendous help to me in getting even sheen on high walls. 

We've discussed this many times on this forum. If you do a search (through Google) you'll find much discussion on this topic. And there is a current thread on it as mentioned previously. 


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

abldwn said:


> Hello all, this is my first time posting here. My customer is happy with all my work except one wall, and a very big wall. Of course I want to make my customer happy the best I can. I painted this one particular wall with a matte finish (which really looks eggshell to me). This wall is in a 120 year old Baltimore row home. So the wall is 10 ft high, and about 80 ft long. And I work alone. When doing an eggshell finish on a wall I try to work as fast as I can so there is less flashing. But this wall was to big for me to do without it flashing. My plan for Tuesday when I attempt to make the customer happy, and repaint the wall is to: put the maximum amount of extender into the paint, and I bought a 18 inch roller with a 9/16th inch microfiber roller sleeve. no open windows, no fans, with the AC on, with my hired helper to cut ahead of me while I roll.
> Any other suggestions are welcome.
> 
> Thanks


In addition to what the others have said, I would keep the following in mind. When painting a surface that absorbs water, adding water or extender to your paint will not prevent the water in the paint from being sucked into the surface you are painting. You painted the big wall with a matte finish, so my guess is that since it flashed, the water in the paint is being sucked up into the wall, most probably leading to flashing. The way I have found to correct this problem is to seal the wall. I like using Gardz sealer by Zinsser. I would put 2 coats on this wall. The first coat will take a while to get on, but not as long as painting takes. The second coat of Gardz will go much quicker. Let each coat dry thoroughly before you paint.

If you already have the paint, fine, but if not, I would opt for the Premium Plus ULTRA. Whichever one you use, or even a different brand, it should go on very smoothly over the Gardz. 

I would not recommend leaving the AC on. It pulls moisture from the air, something you definitely do not want when painting this wall. 

I use the Wooster 5/16" microfiber roller and it seems to work well for me. I have used the 9" and just used the 14" for priming and I like it. 

My idea with the Gardz is to prevent any moisture from the paint absorbing into the wall. I would be careful not to get too much paint on the wall if you use Gardz first for fear of it starting to run or sag too much as it will be staying on top of the Gardz and not soaking into the wall. Gardz is clear, and you will be putting the same color of paint on as your first coat and it should cover well. I just did 2 basment walls that were originally medium blue/gray eggshell in Behr Ultra. I had to spackle numerous screw holes and the 2 walls ended up looking like they had white polka dots on them. I spot sealed the spackle holes with Gardz and then coated the whole 2 walls with Gardz. I thought I would have to put 2 coats of paint on, but the matched paint I bought covered the white spackle marks in one normal coat with even sheen so that it didn't need a second coat. Your wall should cover even better than this over 2 coats of Gardz since you have no white spackle marks to cover.

If you do use the Gardz (and I highly recommend you use it on this one wall!), I would be curious if you find that the wall is still wet where you started after you finish painting. And you won't find yourself having to roll like a madman since the paint will stay wet much longer.

Like Jmayspaint said, finish off with the roller going in one direction. 

If this seems like a lot of prep just to get an even coat without flashing, just think about redoing this wall 2 or 3 more times without Gardz. When you get tired of doing problem walls without Gardz, then you might get interested in trying it out. Good luck.

futtyos


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## Crackshot (Dec 29, 2015)

spot prime and work faster =D


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

abldwn said:


> Behr Matte finish, premium plus.


:no::whistling2:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

abldwn said:


> Behr Matte finish, premium plus.


Bingo! There's the place to start. Try something else.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gardz. Cali Freshcoat Unite matte or Superscrub Matte. Ben Moore Regal Select matte would be good as well. Also Muralo Ultra Ceramic matte. These are a bit more expensive then Behr, but then again what is your labor savings and the satisfaction of your customer worth? Seems like you have already wasted more then the difference in price just trying to get the behr to work at all.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

That's the tough partridge being a one man show keeping a wet edge ,u should be OK with your helper


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> Gardz. Cali Freshcoat Unite matte or Superscrub Matte. Ben Moore Regal Select matte would be good as well. Also Muralo Ultra Ceramic matte. These are a bit more expensive then Behr, but then again what is your labor savings and the satisfaction of your customer worth? Seems like you have already wasted more then the difference in price just trying to get the behr to work at all.


I did a long wall in a high rise in Chicago with Behr Premium Plus flat as per contractor. The wall got morning sun like crazy and all the imperfections showed every time I painted it according to the GC. It kept flashing (because many flat paints today have a sheen to them) after 2 or 3 tries, so I told the GC that I would fix it my way (as described above). The next morning he saw it in the sunshine and said it was basically flawless. All the other walls had no Gardz and they looked just fine, but they also did not get any reflected light like the one long wall did.

I am not saying that Behr PPlus is the best paint out there by any stretch of the imagination, but it worked for me over 2 coats of Gardz. I agree with you and if I had my druthers I would pick a better paint, probably the Muralo, but if that is what abldwn has to work with, I think his best chance is over 2 coats of Gardz.

futtyos

P.S. Gardz


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> I did a long wall in a high rise in Chicago with Behr Premium Plus flat as per contractor. The wall got morning sun like crazy and all the imperfections showed every time I painted it according to the GC. It kept flashing (because many flat paints today have a sheen to them) after 2 or 3 tries, so I told the GC that I would fix it my way (as described above). The next morning he saw it in the sunshine and said it was basically flawless. All the other walls had no Gardz and they looked just fine, but they also did not get any reflected light like the one long wall did.
> 
> I am not saying that Behr PPlus is the best paint out there by any stretch of the imagination, but it worked for me over 2 coats of Gardz. I agree with you and if I had my druthers I would pick a better paint, probably the Muralo, but if that is what abldwn has to work with, I think his best chance is over 2 coats of Gardz.
> 
> ...


The gardz would definitely be a big help. Another thing, Is the OP able to roll from top to bottom in one pass? Most of the interior photos of those row houses that I have seen show that there isn't much space between some of the walls and the opposing wall. If you aren't able to use an extension pole because you don't have room between the wall you are working on and the opposing wall, that would be a major cause of flashing. Try using a 2' extension pole and see if it isn't easier to go top to bottom in one pass. That could actually make a big difference.

And the number of gardz recommendations reinforces my belief that the un-even absorption of the drywall is a main cause of a lot of the flashing people are seeing with the "paint and primer" paints. Drywall is a commodity and the manufacturers are making it cheaper and cheaper by the day. If the walls were only ever coated with flat paint and never sealed, they can continue causing flashing problems even after several coats. That's the main reason I am all for a coat or two of gardz on problem walls. It can make an average quality paint perform much better on the decreasing quality drywall out there.


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## Jaxson34 (Feb 27, 2016)

I was able to talk the Problem Wall customer into using a flat finish. That worked. Gardz was the other option. No more satin in natural light on big walls until I find a product that will work without flashing. 


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

tntpainting said:


> That's the tough partridge being a one man show keeping a wet edge ,u should be OK with your helper


You can also try a little meat tenderizer.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Also just an FYI, an air conditioner pulls the humidity out of the air which will make the paint dry quicker.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Is the SW drywall conditioner the same as Guardz?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Concrete sealer*



AngieM said:


> Is the SW drywall conditioner the same as Guardz?


AngieM, Gardz is similar to acrylic floor finish and sealer in appearance, thickness and smell. If you are familiar with Gardz in these regards, you might give the SW drywall conditioner a look-see and smell. I might do this today on my way to the job.

futtyos


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

I used it after a wall paper removal because that's my rep sold me. She is the best. Anyway, I remember it being very thin and milky white. If guardz the same consistency?


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

AngieM said:


> Is the SW drywall conditioner the same as Guardz?




I haven't used it, but was quoted a good price--so I may soon. The only difference that I can see (according to the label) is that the SW product does not show that it's suitable to seal in wallpaper paste residue (post wallpaper removal). Maybe somebody else will chime in.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Maybe just me, but the new lightweight drywall sure seems to make the flashing worse.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

abldwn said:


> Hello all, this is my first time posting here. My customer is happy with all my work except one wall, and a very big wall. Of course I want to make my customer happy the best I can. I painted this one particular wall with a matte finish (which really looks eggshell to me). This wall is in a 120 year old Baltimore row home. So the wall is 10 ft high, and about 80 ft long. And I work alone. When doing an eggshell finish on a wall I try to work as fast as I can so there is less flashing. But this wall was to big for me to do without it flashing. My plan for Tuesday when I attempt to make the customer happy, and repaint the wall is to: put the maximum amount of extender into the paint, and I bought a 18 inch roller with a 9/16th inch microfiber roller sleeve. no open windows, no fans, with the AC on, with my hired helper to cut ahead of me while I roll.
> Any other suggestions are welcome.
> 
> Thanks


let your cuts dry then roll. shouldnt need extender for 10ft walls...


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

abldwn said:


> Behr Matte finish, premium plus.


why is there not a thumbs down button? (thumbs down )


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## KamRad (Nov 30, 2015)

You could do shoocked :vs_shocked:

Or this thumbs down :thumbdown:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Toolnut said:


> Maybe just me, but the new lightweight drywall sure seems to make the flashing worse.


most of the cheaper brands use a much more absorbent filler material then the higher quality brands. Of course we all know which one most people are going to use!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*What happened?*



abldwn said:


> Hello all, this is my first time posting here. My customer is happy with all my work except one wall, and a very big wall. Of course I want to make my customer happy the best I can. I painted this one particular wall with a matte finish (which really looks eggshell to me). This wall is in a 120 year old Baltimore row home. So the wall is 10 ft high, and about 80 ft long. And I work alone. When doing an eggshell finish on a wall I try to work as fast as I can so there is less flashing. But this wall was to big for me to do without it flashing. My plan for Tuesday when I attempt to make the customer happy, and repaint the wall is to: put the maximum amount of extender into the paint, and I bought a 18 inch roller with a 9/16th inch microfiber roller sleeve. no open windows, no fans, with the AC on, with my hired helper to cut ahead of me while I roll.
> Any other suggestions are welcome.
> 
> Thanks


abldwn, has anything happened with your 80 foot wall? Just curious.

futtyos


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wear pants. Yuk,yuk,yuk.lol


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*good advice!*



lilpaintchic said:


> Wear pants. Yuk,yuk,yuk.lol


I took me a minute or so to get it! :laughing:

I will have to try that.

futtyos


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Flashing is produced by the uneven paint build up and absorption. Eliminate those and it will be fine.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

abldwn said:


> ..to cut ahead of me while I roll.
> Any other suggestions are welcome.


Me personally is trying to avoid as much cutting as possible, it eliminates paint build ups and a lot of time on two three coats jobs. Taping it off to begin with and run a mini roller alone the line saves a lot of head ache in the process. Plus it looks better.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*cutting in and mini rollers*



goga said:


> Me personally is trying to avoid as much cutting as possible, it eliminates paint build ups and a lot of time on two three coats jobs. Taping it off to begin with and run a mini roller alone the line saves a lot of head ache in the process. Plus it looks better.


goga, may I ask a couple of things?

1) How do you cut in ceilings?

2) What kind or kinds of mini rollers do you use? Some have plastic knobs on the end so that when you are rolling against another wall or a ceiling, the knob prevents paint from the roller getting on the adjascent surface (I find that sometimes I have to trim the materials around the knob after it starts getting flat and moving past the knob) and some have material on the end so that when rolling up to a corner you will get an inch or so of paint on the adjascent surface. The latter type one would definitely not use when rolling a wall against a ceiling.

Perhaps this discussion should be left for another thread. If so, will a moderator please indicate this.

futtyos


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Well, I don't want to upload pics to some internet bucket to show them here, they just will show the process which everyone knows, I can drop a few in your email with more detailed sketches if you pm me with it, yet anyway, like I've said, I try not to cut if I can, I tape the opposite side off and seal it with light brushing, then I can roll it close pressing into the corner with any roller, the material on the end will not penetrate the sealed tape and will leave an edge just the way the tape is on.

Mostly 6 inch minis I use are AllPro microfiber with blue line 1/2 from Miller, they are the best for anything from my own exp. especially doors, in corners I run them sideways pressing it then rolling off lightly. I don't "cut" the whole room and then roll it, I cut and roll while moving along. This keeps wet paint wet, if I have to take a break, which I do a lot cuz I'm lazy, I finish the wall at the corner and then start a new one after coming back.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Forgot to mention, my first coat is always as thin as it can get, almost dry roller, it speeds drying time between coats up in half and the whole process in general while maintaining very thin film and walls are not getting spotty thick paint build ups on the "cut in" areas. But this is on repaints, new texture is a diff story.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

goga said:


> Well, I don't want to upload pics to some internet bucket to show them here, they just will show the process which everyone knows, I can drop a few in your email with more detailed sketches if you pm me with it, yet anyway, like I've said, I try not to cut if I can, I tape the opposite side off and seal it with light brushing, then I can roll it close pressing into the corner with any roller, the material on the end will not penetrate the sealed tape and will leave an edge just the way the tape is on.
> 
> Mostly 6 inch minis I use are AllPro microfiber with blue line 1/2 from Miller, they are the best for anything from my own exp. especially doors, in corners I run them sideways pressing it then rolling off lightly. I don't "cut" the whole room and then roll it, I cut and roll while moving along. This keeps wet paint wet, if I have to take a break, which I do a lot cuz I'm lazy, I finish the wall at the corner and then start a new one after coming back.



In some earlier threads, members have raised the issue of cutting and rolling "as you go" being problematic with many of the newer paints. Some of them start to dry too quickly.

After years of doing just as you've described, we've changed our approach and now generally let our cuts dry before rolling, especially on larger walls. It seems to work well and there's also an economy of scale, especially when one of us is working solo.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Maybe I did not word myself in the "right" way saying "cut" and roll. I don't cut in, I tape/seal the edges and roll them after, it is a quick process after the tape was sealed off. Cut ins take a lot of time, especially on 2, 3 coats. As for me, I just mini roll the thing over the taped spots and roll the rest with regular 9". All it takes just switch the rollers on the go to squeeze some paint in the edges in front of 9". Tried many things, this way works bestest for me and I'm OMS most of the times. 

Whatever works for everyone is everyone's gain, as long as results are fine and feet are still moving at the end of the day. 

PS: why I prefer this way is that the biggest issue with cut ins is my arm and shoulder being raised for long time doing cuts is overworked more often than not and I don't like to have my eyes getting cross-eyed after looking at the close range on that brush line I'm pulling. I just like to make my life easier, so I can live happier.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, keeping a wet edge between cut and roll is mostly a thing of the past. At least with the brands I use regularly. With Gennex paints specifically, forget about it. Your likely to do more harm than good by even trying. 

With some of the vinyl acrylics of years past it was a big deal. That's just not the case anymore for the most part. 

Ultimately flashing is caused by uneven application or uneven texture of the applied film. Whether it be excessive film build at your overlap between cut and roll, or pour rolling technique. 

With these new acrylics I do a lot more taping and find that it helps. Rolling the first coat tight and doing minimal cut in helps as well. If there's no hat band, there can be no hat banding. 


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Goga - you did not answer...are you saying you tape the ceiling line?????


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Tape and a whizzy. LOL.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Toolnut said:


> Maybe just me, but the new lightweight drywall sure seems to make the flashing worse.


 Its a combo of LW mudd and recycled paper that cause flashing. Try a primer/sealer for fresh rock. Sand after priming and between coats.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

804 Paint said:


> Goga - you did not answer...are you saying you tape the ceiling line?????
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I did answer, I tape the opposite side which may be anything that is not getting painted, corners, base, crown... If it is too hard to gasp, I will go other route and will say I tape whatever is not painted gets taped off and sealed }


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Sorry I just can't imaging taping a ceiling line for cutting. 


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

I don't imagine, I do it, cuz I like it to be razor sharp and easily done.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Choice of tape*



goga said:


> Well, I don't want to upload pics to some internet bucket to show them here, they just will show the process which everyone knows, I can drop a few in your email with more detailed sketches if you pm me with it, yet anyway, like I've said, I try not to cut if I can, I tape the opposite side off and seal it with light brushing, then I can roll it close pressing into the corner with any roller, the material on the end will not penetrate the sealed tape and will leave an edge just the way the tape is on.
> 
> Mostly 6 inch minis I use are AllPro microfiber with blue line 1/2 from Miller, they are the best for anything from my own exp. especially doors, in corners I run them sideways pressing it then rolling off lightly. I don't "cut" the whole room and then roll it, I cut and roll while moving along. This keeps wet paint wet, if I have to take a break, which I do a lot cuz I'm lazy, I finish the wall at the corner and then start a new one after coming back.


I do some new work for a GC in high rise condos every so often and cutting in the ceilings seems very difficult there compared to most of the repaints I normally do. I might give taping a try. 

How long do you wait after painting the ceiling to tape it to cut the walls in and what is your tape of choice?

Also, do you ever have a problem with ceiling paint being pulled off?

futtyos


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

Yes, what tape and how long? 

Just because, what are you using to seal the edge of the tape? I have found I use the cheapest, crappiest caulk I can find and seal with that. Its so crappy cuts clean when I pull the tape. Any easier methods I'm all ears.


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

And Flashing as others have said, I seal the wall first before moving on. Heck I'll grab some 123 and have my way with it. 

Theres also the new c2 paint thats supposed to cover 2 coats any situation, any color. Worth trying but $$$$


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*material to seal the tape*



7.31psd said:


> Yes, what tape and how long?
> 
> Just because, what are you using to seal the edge of the tape? I have found I use the cheapest, crappiest caulk I can find and seal with that. Its so crappy cuts clean when I pull the tape. Any easier methods I'm all ears.


I believe you just use the same paint that is under the tape to seal the edge. That way you have an exact match. I have used this method on adjascent walls that are 2 different colors. I tape off the blue wall, then hit the corner edge with a very thin line of the same blue paint, let dry then cut in with the red paint for the red wall. When you pull the tape off, the blue paint will have sealed the red paint off from getting under the tape.

How did I do, Goga? 

futtyos


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

futtyos said:


> I believe you just use the same paint that is under the tape to seal the edge. That way you have an exact match. I have used this method on adjascent walls that are 2 different colors. I tape off the blue wall, then hit the corner edge with a very thin line of the same blue paint, let dry then cut in with the red paint for the red wall. When you pull the tape off, the blue paint will have sealed the red paint off from getting under the tape.
> 
> How did I do, Goga?
> 
> futtyos


Yes I have heard of that before. Good idea. I used caulking once against vinyl siding and exterior door and against stained interior trim. Worked, so stuck with it. I'll try this next time I have a surfaced I painted to match to. I learn allot from trial and error and others experiences, like you guys. 

Thanks for the tip.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

futtyos said:


> I believe you just use the same paint that is under the tape to seal the edge. That way you have an exact match. I have used this method on adjascent walls that are 2 different colors. I tape off the blue wall, then hit the corner edge with a very thin line of the same blue paint, let dry then cut in with the red paint for the red wall. When you pull the tape off, the blue paint will have sealed the red paint off from getting under the tape.
> 
> How did I do, Goga?
> 
> futtyos


You have the thing going, yet it is up to you to decide how did you do, just look at it. If you like it, you did good, if not, try another method. I pull the tape right after done wet. If there is a "pull off", just touch it up with the color that had being pulled. I don't press much, just in the very corner with cardboard edge and using one inch tape running two times to make it wide enough for the mini. It has same coverage as 1.5 yet less sticky surface. Tried 1.5, takes more paint off.

Anyways, if there is a time issue, cut and roll, if there are couple of days, I'd wait on drying time as much as I have time to finish it. That way the paint will be dry enough to not be pulled off, which is easily fixed by a brush.


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