# Any Union Guys Here?



## PaintSub

Hello,

We are union shop in the Midwest. Wanted to check to see if there were any union guys on the site. 

Regards,

PaintSub


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## timhag

PaintSub said:


> Hello,
> 
> We are union shop in the Midwest. Wanted to check to see if there were any union guys on the site.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> PaintSub


:no:


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## Wolfgang

Maybe one or two. Looking to unionize PaintTalk?


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## ewingpainting.net

I am a proud NONunion paint contractor, who takes care of his employees without someone telling me how.

Welcome


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## robladd

PaintSub yes there is. I have a 15 year pin and vested life member. Woodland also is. Tim is just being himself a real hag.


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## timhag

robladd said:


> PaintSub yes there is. I have a 15 year pin and vested life member. Woodland also is. Tim is just being himself a real hag.


:thumbsup:


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## 6126

Longtime Union Painter here. Also vested, but doing my own non-union thing these days in residential repaints.


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## CApainter

AFSCME member


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## blackwell

I"m also a proud NONunion painter who takes care of his employees but loves to bid against the union boys when possible.


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## 6126

blackwell said:


> I"m also a proud NONunion painter who takes care of his employees but loves to bid against the union boys when possible.


 Do you provide your employees with health ins and contribute into a retirement fund for them?


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## Ole34

Woodland said:


> Do you provide your employees with health ins and contribute into a retirement fund for them?


ill answer this one........



no, and i also dont tell them who to vote for either


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## 6126

Ole34 said:


> ill answer this one........
> 
> 
> 
> no, and i also dont tell them who to vote for either


Lol Yeah, no doubt. What the heck was I thinking? What employee in their right mind would want a fair wage, health insurance and a pension? :blink: All my years as a Union Painter I dont recall anyone ever telling me who to vote for? Have you ever even been a Union member? If not you really dont have much to go by do you?


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## ewingpainting.net

Woodland said:


> Lol Yeah, no doubt. What the heck was I thinking? What employee in their right mind would want a fair wage, health insurance and a pension? :blink: All my years as a Union Painter I don't recall anyone ever telling me who to vote for? Have you ever even been a Union member? If not you really dont have much to go by do you?


Ok, I'm trying to hold my breath on this one. "Fair wage", paying a ditch digger 22 bucks a hour, a preper 18 buck, a painter 38, is fair? Fair to who, the laborer? the employer? while our country in the private sector is taking cuts, cutting cost, losing jobs, going broke. the tax burden is on us the private sector (36.2% of labors are union) to pay these so called fair wages, health insurance and over whelming pension plans. Though I believe in employee rights, I believe the unions have taken advantage of those rights to line the pockets. All the mean while the business (non union and union) is taking the blunt of the responsibilities, yet union workers escaping their own responsibility. what happen to earn your way, plan for your own future, pride and dignity has been striped by this take care of me mentality, which is crippling our nation as whole. I am 100% anti union, because it is NOT about employee right, which I am 100% for. But it is ultimate liberalism, dictatorship of your future all in the name of "rights" "for your protection". Fend for yourself rather than pay a boss man to fend for you. The easy way would be to go union. Yet they seem to be jobless ATM go figure.


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## ewingpainting.net

As a union worker would you vote for a candidate that will protect your employee rights or would you vote for the candidate that would protect your constitutional rights?


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## 6126

Go back to the first original post. All the guy did was ask if anyone here is Union? Did I come in and dis the non union contractor? No I didnt. Rest assured, I worked my way through the ranks as a painter. Union scale for a journeyman painter here in Portand Oregon is $20 hr. Is that unfair? Health insurance for our families? Is that unfair too? My pension I worked hard for over the years? All the guy asked was "Are there any Union guys here" He didnt ask your opinion on unions.


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## 6126

And, to answer the ORIGINAL question......... Longtime Union Painter here and damn proud of it :thumbsup:


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## 6126

I would like to appoloqize to the original poster and the mods. However, I will not sit still when someone who doesnt even know me do what I consider a personal attack against me when he tells me to grow some balls and work my way up through the ranks. I have more than paid my dues in this trade over the last 30 years. I do not get what has been going on here lately? Maybe this place has always been crazy, but its apparent only a small handful post here regularly. I cant imagine why? I am a very nice guy. I do not bother anyone and generally avoid the BS drama here. I came here a year ago looking for any advice for my new business. I am more than happy to help any other painter. Too bad this has to happen over a simple question? "Any union guys here?" Yes, I am a longtime Union Painter. Nothing has ever been handed to me. I have always worked my ass off. I worked very hard for many years for some great Union employers. Today I get to see my former Union employers at PDCA meetings. My reward for my hard work over the years is a home that is paid for with no morgage and a pension waiting on me. If that makes me a bad guy so be it.


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## Wolfgang

I could see all this comming from the first post......

Wood, if you come back to read this, let it go. Some people obviously have stronger opinions of unions whether for or against, than others. Myself, I'm not a union type guy, though I can see the benefits that it does provide. I think the thing is, is that most of the guys who are business owners don't want another "agency" telling them what they can/can't/must do.

If we can keep this civil, I'll use my past company as an example. Feel free to disagree, but try and keep an open mind where I'm comming from as these are just facts and experiences that I went through.

My employees were paid an hourly rate that I felt was in line with their experience and production. I didn't use union guidelines for pay but I was within the union pay grades within + or - a buck an hour. I think if I averaged in all cash bonuses, holiday bonuses, free tools, clothing, etc., I was probably higher. Keep in mind I was also an employee at a stage in this trade, and I also knew what it took to live a decent lifestyle instead of just surviving.

Health insurance and pensions - I had quotes from three different companies to have my employees covered. All required a substantial contribution from the employees that I would have had to match. I was willing to do so with no problem, however the employees chose not to participate once they saw what their portion would be deducted from their checks on a weekly basis. I couldn't force them to participate. I did increase their pay in the event that they chose to get insurance on their own. I seriously doubt any of them did. Pensions were not an option due to the fact that most of the employees, for some reason or another, choose to move on. If they were to take their cash/Christmas bonuses over the course of a year and invest it, I think they would probably have done alright. I think I had one or two over the years who actually took a couple hundred a month and put into some sort of retirement fund. I couldn't nor did I have any inclination to try and force any sort of fiscal discipline on them. They were adults.

I didn't get wealthy off the backs of my employees. I got wealthy because I knew how to have good basic business sense and I diversified the services I offered. It took me more than a few years to build an equipment and tool inventory that the employees could use. We all know that these aren't one-time purchases, rather they continue throughout the life of the business.....and some of the stuff ain't cheap. LOL On the other hand I knew that I needed to have high production and quality work on a daily basis. As a business owner, if that meant getting rid of the "fat" as needed, I did so. I couldn't afford to have someone just put in their 40 hours without production backing it up. If that was the case, it was imperative that I have the decision rights to either counsel or fire as needed, without worrying about any recourse.

(On a personal note, there were more than a few times I have helped employees through unforeseen financial mishaps/crises. A few times they got checks, when they didn't work due to illness or family emergencies. A few times, I filled the cupboards, helped with furniture, etc., for the newbies starting out. This all came out of my pocket....my personal pocket, not the business. Over the years, I can honestly say, it's come to some major bucks. I don't look back on it with any remorse.)

Do all companies operate this way? Of course not. Just as there are questionable unions and union chapters, there are plenty of questionable employers.....more than plenty.

I take it you are now on the course of owning your own business. You now have an idea of what it takes to support yourself and your family by the business you generate on your own. When you start to grow with multiple employees, you'll realize the income you'll have to generate in order to survive, much less provide union type benefits to your employees. It ain't easy in these times my friend.

Wolf


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## daArch

Almost closed this thread, so consider this a warning.

Keep it CIVIL, respectful, and factual. No politics, no flames, no inflamatory opinions!!!


I am not a big lover of Unions, but they were necessary to gain some worker rights when the robber barons were running sweat shops and endangering their workers.

I know some Union painters who have done proud by their union and the profession. I also know some Union laborers who take advantage of the system.

As with everything in society, the Unions are filled both with good apples and bad eggs.


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## RCP

Thanks Bill, I agree with you. I was about to edit until I read Wolf's thoughtful post, thank you Wolf.

Woodland, I hope your comment about leaving was just out of frustration. I have enjoyed your posts, and watching you grow your business, to me, that is what Nathan's original intention of PT is for, and I look forward to seeing more from you. (and don't you want to be part of the "clicky")

Just like in real life, there are going to be opinions and people that we do not agree with, or like, and while it is admirable to be passionate about certain things, we just can't expect (nor desire) everyone to feel the same way. 

Some of the best threads here come from the diverse opinions held, it is only when we start taking things personally or believing another's opinion is wrong that the threads turn to crap.


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## Bender

Interesting that America was at its military, political, and financial might when unions were strong


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## PressurePros

ewingpainting.net said:


> Ok, I'm trying to hold my breath on this one. "Fair wage", paying a ditch digger 22 bucks a hour, a preper 18 buck, a painter 38, is fair? Fair to who, the laborer? the employer? while our country in the private sector is taking cuts, cutting cost, losing jobs, going broke. the tax burden is on us the private sector (36.2% of labors are union) to pay these so called fair wages, health insurance and over whelming pension plans. Though I believe in employee rights, I believe the unions have taken advantage of those rights to line the pockets. All the mean while the business (non union and union) is taking the blunt of the responsibilities, yet union workers escaping their own responsibility. what happen to earn your way, plan for your own future, pride and dignity has been striped by this take care of me mentality, which is crippling our nation as whole. I am 100% anti union, because it is NOT about employee right, which I am 100% for. But it is ultimate liberalism, dictatorship of your future all in the name of "rights" "for your protection". Show some balls and fend for yourself rather than pay a boss man to fend for you. The easy way would be to go union. Yet they seem to be jobless ATM go figure.


Though maybe not the way I would have written it, there are truths in what Gabe is saying. The union painter gets paid a usually higher than prevailing wage but then has to go overpay for his inferior built American car built by overpriced union labor. It seems to be a wash. More likely the union painter is driving a Nissan or Toyota... or make that an Infiniti or Lexus. 

We all have our perspective based on what serves us best. I happen to be a business owner so I guess that sways my opinion.


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## Bender

PressurePros said:


> Though maybe not the way I would have written it, there are truths in what Gabe is saying. The union painter gets paid a usually higher than prevailing wage but then has to go overpay for his inferior built American car built by overpriced union labor. It seems to be a wash. More likely the union painter is driving a Nissan or Toyota... or make that an Infiniti or Lexus.
> 
> We all have our perspective based on what serves us best. I happen to be a business owner so I guess that sways my opinion.


Maybe its a twisted sense of perception? We've all been trained to think that $20.00 an hour is 'good' money when in reality a guy needs $45.00 an hour just to get by.(I'm not talking about owning a business, just a livable wage)
But that kind of money sounds crazy high to most of us.

I hope this thread stays open as well. A facinating topic:thumbsup:


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## oldpaintdoc

Bender said:


> Interesting that America was at its military, political, and financial might when unions were strong


I can agree to that. BUT, that was before most unions became a for PROFIT business of there own.

I think times have changed and not for the better with respect for unions.


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## oldpaintdoc

Bender said:


> Maybe its a twisted sense of perception? We've all been trained to think that $20.00 an hour is 'good' money when in reality a guy needs $45.00 an hour just to get by.(I'm not talking about owning a business, just a livable wage)
> But that kind of money sounds crazy high to most of us.
> 
> I hope this thread stays open as well. A facinating topic:thumbsup:


For 54 years I have lived on less than $20 an hour and think I live a pretty damn good life.

Wonder if Amerika's entitlement and prospectives have gotten alittle out of control?


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## DeanV

Also, when unions were strong, we did not have the same competition that we have today. When the US companies were one of the few that could do the jobs, companies could charge what they needed and meet union demands. Not really the case anymore with global competition.


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## CApainter

Is the animosity towards union workers directed at the public, or the private sector. Or is there just a general disdain for negotiated labor.

As a painter, unless I started my own little painting business, there would only be a couple of contractors I'd work for without union representation. And that would be taking a gigantic step backwards.


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## DeanV

$45 per hour as an employee to get by????? So everyone needs to be in the top 20% in income? Just guessing on the income level. That is not sustainable.


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## ewingpainting.net

Wood, my intentions was not to personally attack you. My "balls" statement was not direct toward you. Although I can see it may have appeared that way. I apologize if I offended you and will edit my thread. However I do have strong feeling about the unions. Those won't go away and they tend to grow as our nation continues to grow in debt. For some reasons the union workers feel their livelihood should not be effected as so many americans have in the private sector. This is not about employee rights, as I said I am for. I'm not for the boss man appearing to protect the rights of employee to gain interest for his own benefit. Then put that burden on the tax payers, which is unethical, more so in times like we are in today.


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## CliffK

ragebhardt said:


> For 54 years I have lived on less than $20 an hour and think I live a pretty damn good life.
> 
> Wonder if Amerika's entitlement and prospectives have gotten alittle out of control?


 You don't live in the NY metropolitan area that's for sure. I hope in addition to that $20 you are not counting $ for healthcare, pension plans and vacation,etc. Any painter that works for me makes $20/hour which costs me as an employer nearly twice that, and that's before I make a dime on that man for the hour. I do agree that America's entitlement is a little out of wack. I see it mainly in the public sector. I've got civil service workers in my state that after 30 years retire on FULL pensions with healthcare for the rest of their lives. Police retire after 20 years with healthcare for the rest of their lives. As a small business owner the $ I would have to put aside with todays interest rates to pay myself a full pension after 30 years in the business(which I have) and healthcare for the rest of my life is staggering!! Basically impossible, you certainly can't do it thinking $20/hour is "good money".


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## CApainter

Realtors, builders, painting contractors (w/cheap labor), and banks, were charging exhorbident fees, and doing very well for themselves during the "Housing Boom", while union workers were negotiating, and committing to labor, and pension terms that limited the benefits( albeit very generous) many in the public sector were taking advantage of during an ever increasing housing market. There wasn't many complaints from the public during those times of entrepreneurship. 

We were willing to give police, and fire fighters anything they wanted after they demonstrated their courage and sacrifice during 911. Now the same people who built and supported the house of cards, aka the "Housing Boom" are suffering, and want the same public employees they idolized to suffer with them?

Just an observation.


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## 6126

Sorry guys. I went back and edited my original posts. Perhaps a new system can be implemented where I am not allowed to post after midnite cause its usually not my best mood.


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## Roadog

I think some are mixing public union with private union. There is a dif. I'm ex military and ex union. When on union jobs, it reminded me of military jobs. Just different work, but the same personalities were there ......some good, some bad. If you were never in the military you wont understand, and if you were never in the union, you wont get it either. I can say though, the union never paid $600 for a toilet seat. If I had started in the union when I was young, I would have stayed. One of the last places in America you can retire with. The beginning of the end IMO....was NAFTA. And one more thing....if you guys arent raising your prices weekly to keep up with gas and food cost rising.....you are continuing to be paid less each week. And a living wage....dont get me started!


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## daArch

Gabe,

From the sound of your last post, I am gathering it is primarily influenced by the broohaha in Wisconsin. Again, remember, I have little .... VERY little ..... love for the unions especially in the public sector. BUT, those who feel the public employees in Wisconsin are revolting because they are afraid of Union entitlement being lostm, haven't been listening carefully to what's happened in Wisconsin.

From all I've read (and I've been keenly interested in this) the Unions HAVE given back a lot of their benefits in response to the economic times, but what really pisses them off now, is the attempt to break the Union and do away with collective bargaining. 

Again, I have no love for the Unions in the public sector. The teachers Union here in Norfolk is in the process of phucking the students, and it's the UNION officials doing this, not the individual teachers. Many of the good teachers WANT to go the extra mile and give to the students more time and attention, but the Union says they can not. 

I see too many instances where the union is not in step with it's membership, but that's just normal for politics.

But anyway, Gabe, rank on the unions all you want, but get the facts straight.


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## 6126

I will say this, I cant speak for any bother areas but Union Scale here in Portland Oregon is approx $20 hr. In Seattle its maybe a dollar or so higher. I really dont think thats a high or ridiculous wage. I have worked for both Union and non union shops over the years. Seen good and bad in both. I know of a couple non union shops in my area doing the larger commercial jobs who do not even come close to matching the $20 hr journeyman scale for Portland nor do they provide any health care. They are lowball bidding jobs and getting them. The painters they do have are a joke. I also know of a couple non-union commercial shops who are paying union scale and providing benefits. They have good painters. None of this applies to any prevailing wage work either which is only a small portion of the work. My career as a painter has been commercial. I worked several years without ever having health insurance until I did become a union member. Today I am struggling to launch my own business which is not easy. Despite all my commercial experience as a union painter I am not running a union shop because I dont see how it could be possible for residential painting in my area. And unfortuneatly, odds are I will never be able to afford to provide my employees with health insurance as a residential paint contractor. However, if I were to decide to have a large commercial shop I would be union as if I were to have to go back to working for wages it would also be union. I have never discussed my political views here at PT, but they pretty much go against what the unions endorse.


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## daArch

Bender said:


> Maybe its a twisted sense of perception? We've all been trained to think that $20.00 an hour is 'good' money when in reality a guy needs $45.00 an hour just to get by.(I'm not talking about owning a business, just a livable wage)
> But that kind of money sounds crazy high to most of us.
> 
> I hope this thread stays open as well. A facinating topic:thumbsup:


Bender, different parts of the country require different minimum wage. Some folks would be overjoyed with $20/hr, especially if they were working full time.

But I do know where I live, that would barely be survivable.


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## Wolfgang

Woodland said:


> Sorry guys. I went back and edited my original posts. Perhaps a new system can be implemented where I am not allowed to post after midnite cause its usually not my best mood.


No need to apologize. You obviously have some strong feelings about your beliefs. I'm the same on some things. Can't begin to tell you how many replies I've typed, walked away, came back and either heavily edited them or deleted them altogether before hitting the submit button. (A good form of therapy, albeit frustrating...:whistling2

It's always good to hear/read a different perspective Wood, and hopefully on reading it, it will cause some to pause and think. Gabe has been around here long enough that I think one can safely assume he means no harm, maybe his passions on certain subjects are just as strong as yours - just from a different point of view. I think if you go back and read some of his posts, he's one of the members who gives more than he takes.

Wolf


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## Roadog

The real suck factor here is that a guy, just wondering if there were any union painters here, because he is one and wanted to see if this "my brush is better than your brush forum" was going to be worth while stopping at and maybe contribute......probably aint coming back because of personal opinions by some here. I for one dont care much for condo painters and I tolerate exterior painters, but I keep that to myself and I still learn something here and there. I can maybe understand running off DIYers and the occasional teacher wanting to start a side business (how hard can painting be?)...... but not running off a fellow tradesman. Its just wrong.


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## timhag

This should settle any issues that have upset this new comers thread. Post your union opinions here http://www.painttalk.com/f2/i-hate-union-12698/


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## Bender

Would we have such a large influx of illegals in our trade if we were union strong?


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## timhag

Bender said:


> We we have such a large influx of illegals in our trade if we were union strong?


Dude!?!?!? Did you not read the post above yours? Take your opinions to that thread. This thread has been tainted enough, respect the new guy will ya!


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## timhag

PaintSub said:


> Hello,
> 
> We are union shop in the Midwest. Wanted to check to see if there were any union guys on the site.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> PaintSub


Welcome to the forum buddy :thumbsup::yes:


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## ewingpainting.net

Bill, my opinion has been based from what I see in my demographic area. The system has been so abused that it has us at our knees. Sure the private sector has played a huge role in our current economy which put money in the unions pockets as well. I have no problem with compensating law enforcement, fire, etc that do there jobs. But here in Calif, were paying 20-85 bucks an hour plus benefits to build on public owned land. Don't tell me that the unions haven't played their part in the collapse of or economy then threaten to take away our public safety agencies cause there has to be cuts. That's pure socialism. Any body can see if you only have 10 bucks in your hand, if whatever cost 20, you can't buy it. Rather than fighting each other and casting blame, we as a nation need to be working our way out of this mess with each other so our children, grandchildren will have a solid future.


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## robladd

Woodland said:


> I would like to appoloqize to the original poster and the mods. However, I will not have some idiot who doesnt even know me do what I consider a personal attack against me when he tells me to grow some balls and work my way up through the ranks. I have more than paid my dues in this trade over the last 30 years. I do not get what has been going on here lately? Maybe this place has always been crazy, but its apparent only a small handful post here regularly. I cant imagine why? I am a very nice guy. I do not bother anyone and generally avoid the BS drama here. I came here a year ago looking for any advice for my new business. I am more than happy to help any other painter. Unfortuneatly, after many months of (holding my breath) I have had it with Gabe. All over a simple question? "Any union guys here?" Nothing has ever been handed to me. I have always worked my ass off. I worked very hard for many years for some great Union employers. Today I get to see my former Union employers at PDCA meetings. My reward for my hard work today is a home that is paid for and a pension waiting on me. If that makes me a bad guy so be it. So, I am done with my rant and defineatly done with Gabes stupid ass. Again, I appologize to the mods and everyone else. Feel free to close my account. Im done here. Its all yours now Gabe.  Enjoy yourself.


Woodland, I'm not stooping to other's level.
When this thread rolls around, which it does in some form or another it's always the same song and dance, more like dog and pony show.

In the beginning all I could see is RED But
now I just lay back and keep my COOL.

Both of my children were born C-section 
which is about 40k in doctors bills and you know brother not 1 thin dime out my pocket.

Pride and professionalism is something I understand as well as you do. I went through the program and all upgrades and refresher training. I am a Professional Painter and Damn proud of it.

I consider my self in a different league
of players. I was 1 of many shop stewards 
at the Bellagio. That's right # 1 Hotel in Vegas # 4 world wide. 

I could go on and on about all the schools, hospitals, Federal Buildings, Airports, and the like, but I just can't lower my standards to have a pissing contest with a residential 
painting contractor. Sorry bros union and non union alike but this is it! I pass


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## CApainter

ewingpainting.net said:


> Bill, my opinion has been based from what I see in my demographic area. The system has been so abused that it has us at our knees. Sure the private sector has played a huge role in our current economy which put money in the unions pockets as well. I have no problem with compensating law enforcement, fire, etc that do there jobs. But here in Calif, were paying 20-85 bucks an hour plus benefits to build on public owned land. Don't tell me that the unions haven't played their part in the collapse of or economy then threaten to take away our public safety agencies cause there has to be cuts. That's pure socialism. Any body can see if you only have 10 bucks in your hand, if whatever cost 20, you can't buy it. Rather than fighting each other and casting blame, we as a nation need to be working our way out of this mess with each other so our children, grandchildren will have a solid future.


Good points E. However,

Unfortunately, States, Counties, and Municipalities projected increased tax revenues based on a runaway housing market that had no end in site. The record number of building permits, mortgage loans issued, and expanding infrastructure was all the local, State, and Federal Governmental agencies needed to justify an increase in emergency, health, and safety services.


Once the lenders realized that the record number of borrower's began to default on their loans, primarily because their incomes could not support the unrealistic values placed on their purchases, the gravy train began to derail.

The business network, that had been woven with the needles of greed, and deception, and was created by the Wall Street inspired housing market, began to unravel, and now rests like a tattered shroud over the bloated carcass of government. But don't despair. A pulse can be felt, and a new day dawns!

Sorry for the metaphoricals.


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## ewingpainting.net

I wouldn't expect any less from a northern Cali cat that kept our governing officials in office to protect their jobs :thumbsup: 

I can no longer rebuttal this discussion


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## blackwell

Health insurance is great just don't ask for me to pay for it at least not personally a little higher tax I can live with. sincerely james a. blackwell


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## 6126

blackwell said:


> Health insurance is great just don't ask for me to pay for it at least not personally a little higher tax I can live with. sincerely james a. blackwell


No wonder you love to bid against the Union boys.


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## Wolfgang

Woodland said:


> No wonder you love to bid against the Union boys.  But you take care of your guys huh?  I would never work for a commercial contractor that didnt provide health ins. :no: Even the non-union shops around here do. :thumbsup:


 
Are you talking "providing" or "offering"? If it's providing, are they paying the full costs?

Companies can offer health insurance, but it's up to the employees whether they enroll in it or not. Say you have 8 employees, but only 3 take advantage of the program. Usually the quote that the insurance company gives for coverage costs include a numerical range of how many employees are enrolled. If their quote is in the 5-8 range and you only have 3 enrolled, the costs for those 3 will usually be higher due to less of a group discount.


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## ewingpainting.net

Woodland said:


> I would never work for a commercial contractor that didnt provide health ins. :no:


So! To every 1 that wouldn't work for a commercial contractor that didn't provide health ins, there are 20 other that would be glad and grateful to get to work to support their families. Rather than sitting at home blaming every one but themselves why they can't pay their bills. Nothing personal but that's the facts.


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## 6126

Wolfgang said:


> Are you talking "providing" or "offering"? If it's providing, are they paying the full costs?
> 
> Companies can offer health insurance, but it's up to the employees whether they enroll in it or not. Say you have 8 employees, but only 3 take advantage of the program. Usually the quote that the insurance company gives for coverage costs include a numerical range of how many employees are enrolled. If their quote is in the 5-8 range and you only have 3 enrolled, the costs for those 3 will usually be higher due to less of a group discount.


Wolfgang, I totally respect you and appreciate what you contribute here. I am talking about the employer covering the costs and I do understand health care costs and I will respond to your question in a minute. What I do not understand is a new comer here joins Paint Talk and asks a very simple question "Any Union Painters here?" Seems like a simple enough question, but then again maybe its just me? :blink: When someone highjacks a thread simply to put down the union, I will chime in. And its not even so much the "union" thing that gets me as much as the rest of the stupid crap going on here at Paint Talk. This thread is a good example of why very few actually even post here. How many members do we have? 5000? Im not sure without looking, but the egos and arrogance here at PT cracks me up. I can pull up some of my old threads where I had a legitimate question and got very few honest responses and a bunch of egotistical BS replies. For this reason I have been slowly backing off PT cause in a lot of ways its a pretty sick place. So at this point Im just throwing gas back in the fire due to anti union comments when the guy never even asked anyones opinion on unions. What gets me is the ones who have never been signatory contractors or simply a member such as myself working for wages. If you havent worked union how do you know? As I stated before, Journeyman scale here in Portland is around $20 hr. I do not feel thats a ridiculously high wage for a contractor to pay a good painter. Then some make it sound as if we actually work for the Union. We dont. We work for contractors no different than any other shop. So, look at it my way as a guy who has spent most his career as an hourly painter. Are you going to take the $15 job with no benefits or the $20 hr job with health ins and a pension? No brainer for me. Whats killing the union shops around here are the guys who do pay $15 with no benefits. How can a contractor bid against that? Or does a regular hourly painter not deserve to make a decent living? Health care sosts are through the roof. Personally I dont see how the guys I worked for over the years paid for mine when bidding against the guys who dont provide it. The greedy lowballers have ruined it for everyone else over the years. The unions are dying. I will never be able to provide any guys with health care. Not doing residential. No way. A few years ago our contract had run up and we were putting together and voting on a new one. With rising costs, the only way the contractors could continue was the members take a $1 per hour cut. The members flipped out. Perhaps cause many of them have never actually priced health insurance. Not sure if any of this makes any sense? Its coming from a guy who has been working for wages through out his career. Not as a contractor. I am going to take the higher paying job with better benefits. Who wouldnt? So, when a guy comes here and posts "Non Union and I take care of my guys" Compared to a Union shop I am going to disagree. :yes:


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## 6126

Edited


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## ewingpainting.net

Wood, I'm not feeding you BS. Its the facts and there is a ignore function here at PT. Just because we disagree doesn't make you or I bad. No need to be hostile here. Please quite calling me name and making false accusations towards me. 

I have a kid with type 1 diabetes, do you think I don't know the importance of health ins. I worked for a company for over 13 years that provided health ins for me and my family. The year I lost my ins was the year my son was diagnosed. I do what I need to do, to provide for my family. It was and is my responsibility. Not my employer, or a union boss man. Mine! And I am proud to have own up to that responsibility. I work hard for it. It insult me to think someone feels its their right as a employee to have health ins provided (given) for them specially when they are more than capable in providing for themselves. Its called BENIFITS for a reason. Union scale here for a journeyman painter is 38 bucks an hour. Which I have payed on my prevailing wage jobs to my employees, (FYI, I have 3 jobs coming that will pay up to 6 employees that wage). If a man can't figure out health ins on that wage, but yet expect to be provided is a ungrateful employee. I as a owner of a paint contracting business am a member of a non union apprenticeship program. Which trains labors to become journeymen. I pay their bill for that.


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## Wolfgang

Wood, everybody is going to have their own opinions on this matter. It isn't different than anything else in life. Once this thread got cleaned up, I think it's had some good dialogue/debate. I applaud you in your firm beliefs concerning this, and I also think you've brought up some thoughtful points....as have a few others. 

VP, (Scott), posted in another thread that as of late the forum has taken a more "entertainment" form rather than informative. I guess I would have to agree, but there still is alot of information given out. Seems the perception of how it's given and received is the problem anymore. (If I'm part of that problem, then I apologize, probably should be called on it, as I probably don't even realize it at times.)

You've answered some of your own doubts in your last post concerning the costs of health insurance and it's affect on businesses and unions. This has been a problem for years, not just the last 5 or 10. The problem isn't based solely on the contractors. Everybody has a hand in it, and until everybody seeks an amiable solution, it isn't going to change. Without going into politics, the last healthcare bill had so many loopholes, and deletions, it wasn't a fair shake for anyone.

When you have your own business with employees, maybe you can be one of those who makes a difference, but you'll always have those who don't care about it. It's just a fact of life.

As far as cutting back on your participation here, I don't think you're alone. Many of us have for various personal reasons. Is that a reflection on the forum? I don't know. I do know that there is only so much info that can be given time after time, same questions after same questions. Try being one of those who can possibly make a difference here.


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## PaintSub

*Union Pros and Cons*

Good debates. As mentioned earlier, you have to differentiate between the public and non-public unions when discussing this topic. 

I have to say that there is a lot of anti-union sentiment in this country at the moment. Sign of the times. Look at the events in Wisconsin. As requested, won't get political here. The results of this anti-union campaign are yet to be determined. Only history will be able to tell if this is good or bad for the country as a whole.

Here are recent stories on the subject. If the links don't work you should be able to get them free online (for now).

School construction up in air
State's new rule on prevailing wage affects Akron, Barberton, Springfield
By John Higgins 
Beacon Journal staff writer
Published on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011
Ohio ended the prevailing wage requirements for public school construction projects.
http://bit.ly/eAUrid

Trade Unions in City Confront a Rise in Nonunion Projects
By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published in New York Times: March 18, 2011
Non-union construction shops in NYC are taking market share in certain segments from Union contractors.
http://nyti.ms/h6Uw1B

So, how can we make this thread useful to readers? Here are my thoughts on commercial construction unions. 

Contractor Perspective(Am a business owner):

Pros/Facts-
A. If you are in a union construction area it may be the only game in town. Most larger commercial jobs will be union.
B. Unions will provide you with labor that have passed a journeyman program. That doesn't mean they are hard working painters but at least they have the training. (Merit shop org Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC) also has a program.)
C. You will have the ability to scale your workforce up and down as needed. When you have big jobs you will be able to get more qualified labor fast. When things are slow you can reduce your labor. You can call your BA for getting labor. But the best way is to draw from a pool of guys you already have worked with. 
D. Most of the union labor is experienced with a wide variety of specialties.
E. Union worker tend to be long-term career painters. They are not in it for the summer, or till they get a better opportunity. This reduces turnover.
F. Most union commercial bidding is on a somewhat level playing field. You are not competing against firms that hire undocumented labor, or don't have insurance, etc. 

Cons:
A. Work rules can be restrictive. For instance the half day rule requires you to pay a union painter (4) hours of labor for a (1) hour punch list You have to schedule carefully.
B. Expensive- You will need to pay the union your company provided benefits whether you are making money or not. You can't cut your benefits to save bucks in tough times.
C. You will be restricted to the commercial markets because Joe homeowner will not pay union wages to paint their living room. This can be difficult in slow times like now when there is not a lot of commercial new construction activity.
D. You will need to come up with a bond that guarantees your wage and benefits payments to the union. This can cost up to 15K cash to get. That is money not available for other purposes such as marketing, equipment, etc.

Employee/Painter Perspective( Not a union painter so am guessing.):

Pros:
A. Good wages with benefits. 
B. Opportunity to work on larger projects, learn new skills.
C. See D above. Your employer is motivated to pay your wages and benefits. They don't want trouble with their bond.
D. Union representation and agreements for worker rights and job conditions.
E. Journeyman program and ongoing training.
F. Networking with other union painters.

Cons:
A. Union takes a cut of your wages.
B. You don't have complete control over dues contributions.
C. Like non-union counterparts you won't be guaranteed work in slow times.
D. You won't receive full journeyman wages till you finish the apprenticeship program. But the apprenticeship wages are competitive with most non-union shops.

Lets hope that the construction market improves so that both union and non-union shops can succeed.


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## RCP

Glad to see we didn't scare you off, the thread had some twists and turns!


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## ewingpainting.net

PaintSub said:


> Lets hope that the construction market improves so that both union and non-union shops can succeed.


:notworthy:

I have discussions all the time with unionist. When I see the sticker on the tool boxes, at the appropriate time I debate with them (lunch break). Funny thing is lately 80% have been working for the private sector. Most have been civil and we usually shake hands when were done. 
I didn't think it was all that bad to disagree or further this discussion. 

Glad you checked in. :thumbup:


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## robladd

PaintSub said:


> Hello,
> 
> We are union shop in the Midwest. Wanted to check to see if there were any union guys on the site.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> PaintSub


Is your shop signatory with the IUPAT's?


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## 6126

Glad to see you back Paintsub.


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## CApainter

Paintsub, thanks for the level headed breakdown of an emotional subject.

E, I'm assuming you mean that 80% of union painters you've encountered are working for the private sector that aren't union shops? 
Just trying to keep from mixing the apples with the oranges.


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## paintr56

Let me start out by saying I never had any desire to work for a union shop, and having government jobs require prevailing wage in my opinion is just wrong. They are glad to take tax money from both the company and employees of companies that do not pay prevailing wage so they should be just as glad to allow us to bid jobs using our lower pay structure. 

The problem is to many people blame the unions and union employees for some how forcing government and the private sector to meet what some consider unsustainable demands. It is called collective *bargaining* that means there is some one on the other side of the table willing to pay what is asked. Why not blame the public officials who say that it sounds reasonable for us to not look at bids that come from companies that do not pay what unions pay? Why is union scale considered prevailing wage anyway? Why not ask why when things were going well too many companies decided they should offer to continue paying employees (retirement) after they left the job instead of counter offering to pay them more now so they could fund their own retirements. Looking back it is obvious why they did that. They got the workers to work, grabbed the profits and then didn't properly fund the retirements. 

In closing I will say all states should be right to work states and government contracts should go to the qualified company with the best bid. Not necessarily the lowest bid and not based on what they pay their workers.

To those that are proud union members I wish you nothing but the best over the years you have made things better for all of us.


Jim


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## promax

So my question is what does a union painter do, is it different than what contractor does, i would like some info on the unions and how they operate, was thinking of doing it myself to be honest, not political here, not trying to make people mad, not looking for a fight, lol would just like some info from you union guys out there, if need be just send me a private message. thanks


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## Roamer

I am not a union sympathizer and the painter's union here is pretty weak. We were salted by the local union a few years back so that definitely did not win any favor from us.

All that said, there is a lot to be thankful for that unions have provided:

lunch breaks
40 hour work weeks
safety regulations, practically everything that OSHA governs was born out of this.
overtime
minimum age requirements
etc

We have dabbled in the Philly area in commercial work and the union up there is very strong. Philly is a union town, no doubt. Fortunately, I have a friend that owns a union shop up there and we sub our commercial Philly work to him to avoid any unnecessary unpleasantries with the local union boys.


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## 6126

promax said:


> So my question is what does a union painter do, is it different than what contractor does, i would like some info on the unions and how they operate, was thinking of doing it myself to be honest, not political here, not trying to make people mad, not looking for a fight, lol would just like some info from you union guys out there, if need be just send me a private message. thanks


Its really no different than working for any other shop. Main advantage for me over the years was my benifits always followed me where ever I worked. If things got slow at one shop and I went to another, I still had the same health & dental ins and the same pension. Give your local a call. Not sure what part of NJ your in, but when I worked out there I think Newark was District Council 711. Been a few years http://www.iupat.org/pages/home2


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## exunionpainter

*unions are full of b s*

Lets start off by saying this job will be 7 months long but after a week, I hear well we are going to lay you off for a week or so till the carpenters can catch up. My ? is that 7 consecutive months or week here and there that might add up to 7 months. I dont know about the rest of you out there, but i need a weekly income. dont give me the "you could draw unemployment while your not working" line. I might as well be working for an employment agency. the only difference is I wouldnt have to pay them monthly dues. What a scam let me pay you so I can work. WTF!


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## ellas70

proud union painter and know contractor 
i have no problem paying people what they deserve 
i am always hearing how bad the unions are but from people that never been in a union and only believe what they are told by contractors who don't want to take care of there employees 
there is a contractor that asked me a couple of days ago why he is going threw so many people he cant get any steady workers to stay
so i asked him what he is paying them and if he offers any benefits for them 
he told me that he pays his guys $11.00 a hour and i was crazy for even mentioning benefits
then i asked him if he could afford to pay his bills on $11.00 and hour 
he told me no way that he would never work for that 
i told him there is your answer


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## 6126

Im surprised this thread is still going. Im staying out.


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## MAK-Deco

Woodland said:


> And, to answer the ORIGINAL question......... Longtime Union Painter here and damn proud of it :thumbsup:


Wouldn't you being a "scab' for not working union now?


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## 6126

MAK-Deco said:


> Wouldn't you being a "scab' for not working union now?


Yes I am. !00% scab, rat, hypocrite, however you want to put it. Also about as right wing as it gets politically. Im also not doing commercial work at this time and odds are I never will do anything of any signifigance. I do residential repaints today. Unfortuneatly I havent seen the Union in the residential painting market for many years. If my work consisted of doing the large commercial projects I used to do during my painting career back when I was simply a painter working for wages, I am still not sure if I would be Union. I think your missing the point. I was refering to back when I was just a painter working by the hour. Why would I want to work for a shop that paid $5 per hour less and offered no benefits? The only reason for my rant here to begin with was the fact the guy simply asked "Any Union guys here?" All of a sudden several come along and start putting down the Unions. I dont get it. Now perhaps it shows up different on other monitors and says...."Whats your opinion of the Union?" On my monitor it shows a very simple question. I made a decent living as a Union painter for quite a few years. If I live long enough, I will collect my pension some day. If that makes me a bad guy. so be it.


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## ewingpainting.net

Wood, buddy its the nature of discussion, It takes its turns and has its ups and downs. If the answers were just a yes or no it would be a boring thread. A yes or no with reasoning behind is much more beneficial to the forum. Even if you or I disagree.


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## oldpaintdoc

Woodland said:


> If I live long enough, I will collect my pension some day.


I would'nt bet on that!


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## MAK-Deco

Woodland said:


> Yes I am. !00% scab, rat, hypocrite, however you want to put it. Also about as right wing as it gets politically. Im also not doing commercial work at this time and odds are I never will do anything of any signifigance. I do residential repaints today. Unfortuneatly I havent seen the Union in the residential painting market for many years. If my work consisted of doing the large commercial projects I used to do during my painting career back when I was simply a painter working for wages, I am still not sure if I would be Union. I think your missing the point. I was refering to back when I was just a painter working by the hour. Why would I want to work for a shop that paid $5 per hour less and offered no benefits? The only reason for my rant here to begin with was the fact the guy simply asked "Any Union guys here?" All of a sudden several come along and start putting down the Unions. I dont get it. Now perhaps it shows up different on other monitors and says...."Whats your opinion of the Union?" On my monitor it shows a very simple question. I made a decent living as a Union painter for quite a few years. If I live long enough, I will collect my pension some day. If that makes me a bad guy. so be it.



it doesn't make you a bad guy, but do you how many union guys bash non union guys? So for someone like you to play both games you get to see how it is on the other side. You will find out really quick that it isn't easy to pay someone $38 hr plus full benefits and make money.

I struggle with keeping one guy at 30$ an hour (no benefits) plus myself and figure he can pay his own retirement if he chooses its his money and he responsibility... 

I worked for a small union shop starting out 20+ years ago and they guy retirement and ended everything and I went on my own and the union had no advice or sympathy for me and I wasn't going to be a minion on someones bottom of the pack so I went on my own.

I still support the idea of unions in this country but they are really making it hard for people to believe in them when they have turned into the political machine that they were once created to fight.... 

good luck to you and welcome to the other side...


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## 6126

I hear ya guys. Let me clarify that my Union views are strictly from an employees point of view not as a contractor. When I worked for wages as a commercial painter the Union was my best choice at the time. On the other hand, I could write a book on how much of a joke the Portland Painters Local 10 has become. Everyone there, from the secretary, organizers, etc all earn "Master tapers wage" which is way above "Journeyman Painter" scale even if they never were a taper. Is that fair? No it isnt. For some reason Portland is the only place I have seen where tapers who are in the same union as the painters get a much higher scale. Besides the fact that I love to paint, I have been in this simply to earn a living from day one. I will work where I earn the best wage. When I moved to Oregon, the Union jobs paid much more. Today, that is no longer the case. I know of non union shops here paying just a much or more.


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## 6126

ragebhardt said:


> I would'nt bet on that!


 Trust me, that crosses my mind all the time.


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## robladd

Woodland said:


> Yes I am. !00% scab, rat, hypocrite, however you want to put it. Also about as right wing as it gets politically. Im also not doing commercial work at this time and odds are I never will do anything of any signifigance. I do residential repaints today. Unfortuneatly I havent seen the Union in the residential painting market for many years. If my work consisted of doing the large commercial projects I used to do during my painting career back when I was simply a painter working for wages, I am still not sure if I would be Union. I think your missing the point. I was refering to back when I was just a painter working by the hour. Why would I want to work for a shop that paid $5 per hour less and offered no benefits? The only reason for my rant here to begin with was the fact the guy simply asked "Any Union guys here?" All of a sudden several come along and start putting down the Unions. I dont get it. Now perhaps it shows up different on other monitors and says...."Whats your opinion of the Union?" On my monitor it shows a very simple question. I made a decent living as a Union painter for quite a few years. If I live long enough, I will collect my pension some day. If that makes me a bad guy. so be it.


The official definition of a "Scab" is the following.

A union member working for a non signatory contractor on a project when that
union member is offered a full time job
from a signatory union contractor and passes on the offer to work for the non signatory contractor. This also includes sanctioned union pickets. If your local or district sanctions a picket and the member is in good standing crosses the picket line to work for a non union contractor this also 
is considered "scabbing".

Example Iron Workers sanction a picket for a low rise building in downtown. The Iron Workers will picket the job and the iron workers will be expected to honor this picket. If this particular building is union in all other building trades those other union trade workers can cross the picket line to do their craft. Craftsmen have the right to honor this picket and do not have to cross the picket line if they choose to.

Woodland is a vested union member as well as I am.

I have never been a Signatory Contractor
or has Woodland. Not yet anyway!

So technically we are not SCABS. Lol

Not only that in some states shops are OPEN meaning they are both. Union and non union members working for the same contractor. Some jobs union some not.


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## ewingpainting.net

I've worked on jobs where I had to pass through the picketers. I would spark up my fat premium cigar and made sure they got a whiff of it as I passed. Sad to see the brotherhood of the union workers piss on their brother for supporting his or her family just because they went non union. Sounds so mob like :whistling2: What I found odd is that those that were crying about unfair wages was not true at all. The nonunion laborers were getting union scale wages. So how is that unfair wages? It's more about the "Don" not getting his cut for what it sounds to me.


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## mr.fixit

I could not have said it better Chris


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