# Advance, Breakthrough, or SW MSA?



## OilBased (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm doing about 200 ft of installed primed poplar base and about 8 doors... I'm going to be spraying airless FFT. 

Last job used ProClassic acrylic and was underwhelmed. Sheen was not what I was expecting.

Looking for opinions on Advance vs Breakthrough (50 is all I can get) vs SW multi surface acrylic...

It's an addition and I'm trying to get roughly close to SW proclassic alkyd in satin.

Thanks!


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Advanced. Or proclassic hybid is fairly close to the alkyd. Not the acrylic like you used its terrible but the acrylic/alkyd. They have three proclassics


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## OilBased (Feb 10, 2016)

Thanks. I was leaning Advance because it does seem like it will be easier to dial in (smaller learning curve than the others I mentioned). It's a white so the cure time should be better???

The ProClassic alkyd looks fantastic, but I'm looking to make my clean up easier.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

I find Breakthrough satin to be too shiny for my taste. Not sure if it's gonna lose some over time...I tried the SW MSA in eggshell and it's the perfect sheen for cabinetry and trim/doors....at least in my opinion....

I have to use semi gloss on the next job so I'll see how shiny MSA truly is in that sheen compared to other products.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

By the way, Breakthrough and Advance have a learning curve...I've got Advance down pretty good but stopped using it cuz it's a soft paint ...I'm still working on Breakthrough (different techniques etc) to get the best out of it.

MSA is more forgiving


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

The alkyd (hybrid) IS fantastic. And quick recoat time as well...and the clean up isn't bad either. I just use a little "dawn" dish soap. Might be overkill even. They say just water through the airless, I just don't trust it. So I use dawn and warm (or hot) water. No problem.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

DynaPLLC said:


> I find Breakthrough satin to be too shiny for my taste. Not sure if it's gonna lose some over time...I tried the SW MSA in eggshell and it's the perfect sheen for cabinetry and trim/doors....at least in my opinion....
> 
> I have to use semi gloss on the next job so I'll see how shiny MSA truly is in that sheen compared to other products.




The BT satin is not very shiny IMO. I think it's rated 20-25 gloss level at 60 degrees. 
The Advance satin is 25-32 I think. Definitely higher. Still not too shiny. 
Of course darker colors tend to look shinier.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Damon, you're right on the percentages, but truth is, BT satin is more like a semi gloss in my opinion(at least the gallons I got lately).

Current job i'm wrapping up in a couple days, I have the back of the cabinet doors done in Breakthrough and the front and sides in pro industrial. I'll post a picture tomorrow for reference. 
It's either the horrible luck I had with Breakthrough lately with a bad batch or something else. I'm familiar with Advance satin cuz that's the sheen we use 90% of the time, but Advance satin isn't nearly as shiny as the BT I sprayed lately. And we're talking about whites and off whites. 

I might be wrong though...


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## OilBased (Feb 10, 2016)

I would love to see any pics with sheen. I appreciate all the info.


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

The only real advantage Breakthrough has over Advance in my opinion is logistical convenience. Breakthrough dries and cures a hell of a lot faster than Advance but It seems to me that Advance is the higher-end finish of the two. We only have the low voc breakthrough around here so that could be a factor as well. If you can spare the time inherently necessary for advance on doors, I'd go with that. Then again like I metioned in the thread about preferred products for cabinets - I think Arothane and Aristoshield beat both Advance and Breakthrough in an overall comparison. The recoat time for Advance is 4x that of Aristoshield.

I was told that SW picked up Arothane (it's a Frazee product) for their national line so they'll have an alkyd/urethane enamel available for you all someday.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DynaPLLC said:


> By the way, Breakthrough and Advance have a learning curve...I've got Advance down pretty good but stopped using it cuz it's a soft paint ...I'm still working on Breakthrough (different techniques etc) to get the best out of it.
> 
> MSA is more forgiving


It might be soft bc you could be recoating to soon


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Damon T said:


> The BT satin is not very shiny IMO. I think it's rated 20-25 gloss level at 60 degrees.
> The Advance satin is 25-32 I think. Definitely higher. Still not too shiny.
> Of course darker colors tend to look shinier.


I actually think thay Breakthrough Satin is lacking in sheen and gloss is not even that shiny at all 
50 voc


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Gurnoe said:


> The only real advantage Breakthrough has over Advance in my opinion is logistical convenience. Breakthrough dries and cures a hell of a lot faster than Advance but It seems to me that Advance is the higher-end finish of the two. We only have the low voc breakthrough around here so that could be a factor as well. If you can spare the time inherently necessary for advance on doors, I'd go with that. Then again like I metioned in the thread about preferred products for cabinets - I think Arothane and Aristoshield beat both Advance and Breakthrough in an overall comparison. The recoat time for Advance is 4x that of Aristoshield.
> 
> I was told that SW picked up Arothane (it's a Frazee product) for their national line so they'll have an alkyd/urethane enamel available for you all someday.


The 50 VOC BT is tough as nails


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

El Taco, more than 12 hours in between is not too soon for any paint. And a month later to be able to easily scratch the surface, no thanks


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

SW multi surface satin. Shine wise I think it's perfect for cabinets.


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## OilBased (Feb 10, 2016)

Rbriggs82 said:


> SW multi surface satin. Shine wise I think it's perfect for cabinets.



SW multi surface satin? I only see gloss and eggshell listed... Are the cabinets pictured the eggshell?

Looks great BTW.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Only eggshell, semi and gloss in my area. Don't think it comes in satin.


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

DynaPLLC said:


> El Taco, more than 12 hours in between is not too soon for any paint. And a month later to be able to easily scratch the surface, no thanks


I prefer BT over Advance myself 
Quick dry and 3 hour recoat


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> SW multi surface satin. Shine wise I think it's perfect for cabinets.


It looks great and yeah id say the sheen is perfect. I'm trying the multi surface next week for doors and trim on a house.
After I had the sw rep order some in for me and told him what I was using it on he called me after I left. He said because I was using it on wood Sherwin wouldn't stand behind it in case there was a problem. The website says its for metal and masonry. Makes me a little uneasy. He also said he really didn't know why since it bonds so well to everything.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Your rep used to work for Home Depot I guarantee.
If they don't stand behind this product on properly prepped wood, but they will stand behind it on applying it on "marginally clean surfaces" as they say, then it's time to get another rep.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Before and after with Breakthrough in satin finish


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

OilBased said:


> SW multi surface satin? I only see gloss and eggshell listed... Are the cabinets pictured the eggshell?
> 
> Looks great BTW.
> 
> ...


Eggshell, my bad. 

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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Here's some breakthrough satin right under a light so you can kinda get an idea of the sheen. This was the highest VOC version of BT I'm not sure if the sheen level varies between different versions. I thought the sheen was good for cabinets as well. 










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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

The Cutting Edge said:


> It looks great and yeah id say the sheen is perfect. I'm trying the multi surface next week for doors and trim on a house.
> After I had the sw rep order some in for me and told him what I was using it on he called me after I left. He said because I was using it on wood Sherwin wouldn't stand behind it in case there was a problem. The website says its for metal and masonry. Makes me a little uneasy. He also said he really didn't know why since it bonds so well to everything.


I'm almost positive he's wrong on that. :yes:

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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

DynaPLLC said:


> El Taco, more than 12 hours in between is not too soon for any paint. And a month later to be able to easily scratch the surface, no thanks



You might want to read the data sheets. Advance has a 16 hours recoat time according to their literature.



ElTacoPaco said:


> The 50 VOC BT is tough as nails


The OP mentioned spraying so BT is a fine option, but there seems to be a little bit of fanboyism on this forum for the product. Any of the enamels mentioned in this thread are plenty durable enough. I want as nice of a feel and look to the finish for something like interior doors as possible. For me breakthrough is 1-1.5 hours away round-trip and it's overly industrial. Rolled and brushed it's splatter-city, dries too fast to lay out on broad surfaces, and the final finish doesn't feel or look as nice as other leveling enamels when they're also brushed out. When I roll Aristoshield with a fine knap 4" roller it levels out to look as nice as sprayed (I've had customers argue with me like "no, you must have sprayed this!") - rolling breathrough without laying it off just leaves me with bubbly garbage for a finish. IME most of the benefits from BT are only realized by painters in a hurry. The only time I use it is when I absolutely have to spray multiple coats and move the doors the same day. I'm also a one man show so my entire painting process is different from somebody like RPF, who rightly loves the stuff because it makes him $$$$.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

Roll and back brush Breakthrough. You have to look very close to see the brush marks.


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

What exactly is the advantage in using BT for baseboards? Blocking resistance is irrelevant. Every enamel mentioned in this thread (most of which are cheaper than BT) meet the required hardness threshold for baseboards. No offense intended Dyna, but you're specifically the person who made a thread about having problems with BT just a week ago.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't understand what the problem is.
I had issues with the paint sprayed with the airless. Not brushed and rolled.
For me, BT is the cheapest out of them all at 35$/gallon.
Advantages on using BT for baseboards? Well I had 3 guys work on painting the baseboard only and they were done in 3 hours.
We only had to put one coat cuz I matched the previous .

We masked the trim 3 hours later and did the walls. There's your advantage. 

Not sure how you took it that I "love" BT. It's great for specific things like I just mentioned. 
I had problems with the new formula , the 50 VOC and we found out why. The old formula is fine


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

I've only used the low (50) voc version for what it's worth to anybody reading. I didn't mean you personally in my fanboy comment, although it does seem a bit tedious that you essentially tried to argue with me presenting my experience with the product when you had a whole thread in a similar vein. I'm glad it works for you I don't mean to belittle the product as much as wonder how it seems to have an almost mystical status among some painters here. I happen to live in an area where we have a plethora of paint brand choices and I get better finishes at better prices from other paints in almost every situation. 

In regards to the OP, I suspect you'll get the closest to Proclassic alkyd satin with an alkyd satin, and that would be Advance, Proclassic (hybrid), Protec, Arothane, Aristoshield, and I'm sure there are others.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

I'll sure be spraying it through my AAA once it arrives next week since it seems like the perfect paint to spray through a .08 or .09 tip unreduced.

breakthrough is for production. Recoat and stack way faster than the others.

Different paints for different applications and techniques. 
BT is mostly desired for its ability to stick like mad to every surface out there.

At he end of the day, the paint that is the most durable,most user friendly, that keeps the customer happy ,and brings the best income by having all the qualities listed above, wins


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

Gurnoe said:


> You might want to read the data sheets. Advance has a 16 hours recoat time according to their literature.
> 
> 
> The OP mentioned spraying so BT is a fine option, but there seems to be a little bit of fanboyism on this forum for the product. Any of the enamels mentioned in this thread are plenty durable enough. I want as nice of a feel and look to the finish for something like interior doors as possible. For me breakthrough is 1-1.5 hours away round-trip and it's overly industrial. Rolled and brushed it's splatter-city, dries too fast to lay out on broad surfaces, and the final finish doesn't feel or look as nice as other leveling enamels when they're also brushed out. When I roll Aristoshield with a fine knap 4" roller it levels out to look as nice as sprayed (I've had customers argue with me like "no, you must have sprayed this!") - rolling breathrough without laying it off just leaves me with bubbly garbage for a finish. IME most of the benefits from BT are only realized by painters in a hurry. The only time I use it is when I absolutely have to spray multiple coats and move the doors the same day. I'm also a one man show so my entire painting process is different from somebody like RPF, who rightly loves the stuff because it makes him $$$$.


You need to try the 50 voc 
I have personally applied this myself by rolling and brushing and it looked as if sprayed


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## ElTacoPaco (Dec 11, 2015)

How about Rust-Scat
Anybody???


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I've found that both breakthrough and the multi surface level out surprisingly well given their incredibly short open time. 

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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

^i agree.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Just finished a huge cab job with Advance again and the finish is rock hard and beautiful. I don't get that from others finishes. Yes takes longer to dry but hands down the closest thing to the old Satin Impervo or P&L Cell-U-Tone if not just as good or better . I've tried all the others sorry but not even close to the finish and look of Advance . I'm still a fan of 314 and a couple others but when I want to show off my skills I choose Advance.


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## DynaPLLC (Oct 25, 2013)

^i know a lot of people love Advance but how do you guys define rock hard finish? By kissing the surface and not leaving a mark? Hehe
If you sample a few pieces of wood with the same primer under, let them cure then run the flat surface of your nail across the surface with medium pressure and are able to see a dull mark from your nail in the light, that finish is considered soft. in most instances, a light or medium industrial cleaner will wipe the paint off.


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## Gurnoe (Sep 5, 2015)

edit: not worth it


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