# We looked at a new garage floor to coat.



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We looked at a new garage floor to coat. It was done a year ago, passed the moisture test BUT when you walk across the floor you can literally feel the high and low spots, place a straight edge on the floor and there are major gaps plus cracks all over the place. When it rains out the rain comes in a side barn door and puddles in a bunch of different spots.

I told the HO the floor the way it is will end up failing from standing water on it. He said he tried to contact that contractor only to be blown off. My suggestion is contact a lawyer and go from there.

I wont feel comfortable charging some one over 6 grand for a job like this knowing it may fail.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

You don't want to be responsible for that failure. People don't understand how critical moisture content and standing water prevention are for garage floor coating longevity. This is another part of the paint industry that has been pumped up by marketing to the point where everyone wants it but very few garage floors can actually hold a coating for very long. Consumers think as long as it is an epoxy it should last forever, but if there are continuing moisture/water issues it doesn't hold up for very long. When it fails, they most often blame the application and the product instead of the poor surface prep and unsuitability of the concrete to be painted in the first place.

That means they will blame the contractor that applied the absolutely perfect epoxy paint that the kid at Lowe's said would work. Get a disclaimer signed regarding the water exposure or let some other guy take the hit when it fails.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd be very polite but tell them you can't take the job in good faith because you know it will fail no matter how well you do it. That's what these HO's need to hear to help them understand.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

6 g's wow!


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Divert/block rain from entering garage?

Threshold. Bulb seal. Exterior re-grade. Something.

French drain. Weeping tile. Etc.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> 6 g's wow!


No kidding - must be one hell of a garage.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

chrisn said:


> 6 g's wow!





RH said:


> No kidding - must be one hell of a garage.


We need to use a 100% solid for this. I called the BM rep who deals with just this product we will use. He said to apply it 15 mils thick each coat, recommends 3 coats then our clear. Right now we are looking at approx 25 gallons, That's roughly $3,100 just for the product. I still have to crunch numbers and can see the price going up.

We know a local company for a 2 bay garage no floor grinding or acid their prices start at $7,500. They do not do many. 

Depending a 2 bay we usually get 4-6k


----------



## soperfect paint (Aug 25, 2015)

It is very difficult to keep garage floor coating safe for long time.Yes i agree you need solid product for this.I suggest you to go for spam for lunch.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> We need to use a 100% solid for this. I called the BM rep who deals with just this product we will use. He said to apply it 15 mils thick each coat, recommends 3 coats then our clear. Right now we are looking at approx 25 gallons, That's roughly $3,100 just for the product.


And that finish system can't withstand a rain puddle?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I have seen 1/2" thick 100% solids self levelling epoxies fail due to hydrostatic pressure. If there is water pouring in the door when it rains, there is also water going under the slab. The pressure from that water buildup under the slab can cause it to pull away from the concrete as the concrete starts to deteriorate from the moisture build up. There is also the possibility of efflorescence starting to separate the concrete from the coating. Add to that the high and low spots and you have a high probability of failure. Something should be done to control the water around that garage. I paint paint has some great suggestions.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

soperfect paint said:


> It is very difficult to keep garage floor coating safe for long time.Yes i agree you need solid product for this.I suggest you to go for soperfectpaint.


I think this is a bot after all, or a human operator who's just trying to get their name picked up (SEO). It's why none of his replies make much sense- he's just trying to fly under the radar and not get banned so he can keep putting his name out there.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I think this is a bot after all, or a human operator who's just trying to get their name picked up (SEO). It's why none of his replies make much sense- he's just trying to fly under the radar and not get banned so he can keep putting his name out there.


At least he isn't a Home Depot/Behr bot.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I think this is a bot after all, or a human operator who's just trying to get their name picked up (SEO). It's why none of his replies make much sense- he's just trying to fly under the radar and not get banned so he can keep putting his name out there.


There is a company called Southern Perfection painting that comes up on Google search when you search soperfectpaint. Seems like a legit company in good standing. I'm curious as to what product they are recommending. Or do they just want to bid on the job?

And if he is a legit business why the not so clear post?


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

100% bot, or human operator. Posting same stuff over here:

http://www.artistforum.com/search.php?searchid=976561


Hey, just noticed that Cricket's an admin on there too! Girl gets around!


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I think this is a bot after all, or a human operator who's just trying to get their name picked up (SEO). It's why none of his replies make much sense- he's just trying to fly under the radar and not get banned so he can keep putting his name out there.


I need to get me one of these "bots" to promote my store. Where do you buy them?


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> I need to get me one of these "bots" to promote my store. Where do you buy them?


China, mainly.


----------



## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> 100% bot, or human operator. Posting same stuff over here:
> 
> http://www.artistforum.com/search.php?searchid=976561
> 
> ...


Thank you for catching that for me. :thumbsup:


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Cricket said:


> Thank you for catching that for me. :thumbsup:


Ha, no problem. I'm pretty good at the online hunting.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Cricket said:


> Thank you for catching that for me. :thumbsup:


 Damn, I mentioned it like three other times for no credit!


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Damn, I mentioned it like three other times for no credit!


Courtesy thanks given.


----------



## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

Did y'all hit the report button previously?


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

No, I was just counting on your omniscience and omnipresence to notice it.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> No, I was just counting on your omniscience and omnipresence to notice it.


Something tells me Cricket has more to do than read all the posts on PT when they follow the flight path of the butterfly.

doors-behrpaint-gravy-poutine-several hundred other things.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Something tells me Cricket has more to do than read all the posts on PT when they follow the flight path of the butterfly.
> 
> doors-behrpaint-gravy-poutine-several hundred other things.


And here I was thinking Cricket was just a product of the machines.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

PACman said:


> I have seen 1/2" thick 100% solids self levelling epoxies fail due to hydrostatic pressure. If there is water pouring in the door when it rains, there is also water going under the slab. The pressure from that water buildup under the slab can cause it to pull away from the concrete as the concrete starts to deteriorate from the moisture build up. There is also the possibility of efflorescence starting to separate the concrete from the coating. Add to that the high and low spots and you have a high probability of failure. Something should be done to control the water around that garage. I paint paint has some great suggestions.


I had discussed this with the HO. Right now he isn't sure what to do. He knows it's not cheap to put the epoxy down and it have a 50% chance of failing due to the water issue.

He is getting a carpenter over to see what they can do to prevent water from coming in. I gave him 2 concrete guys numbers to call.

This year I learned if I'm going to spend this time with customers and help them find other contractors I need to get paid if we land the job, I've been adding the runner cost to the estimates now. these little things do help us get jobs.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

soperfect paint said:


> It is very difficult to keep garage floor coating safe for long time.Yes i agree you need solid product for this.I suggest you to go for spam for lunch.


I eat steaks not spam.


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

CD. consider the use of a remediation epoxy. Dura-Flex has their Poly-Crete. I have a contact for a really good one too out of Rocky Hill CT. Can be applied over a contaminated surface and won't fish eye or out gas. Holds back 25 pounds of water vapor. Any system can be applied over it. We use 100% solids over it at 16 mils then aliphatic topcoat clear with a spherical polyurethane anti slip. (Shark Grip/Bite) we have used this system very successfully at a major razer blade manufacture in Milford CT with great success. We do anhydrous calcium chloride tests and the pounds of vapor transmission are out of spec and the floors hold perfectly. You could park your G5 on these floors. We do diamond grind floors to a surface prep of ICRI 3 or 4. Good luck. Call me if you have any questions.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

soperfect paint said:


> It is very difficult to keep garage floor coating safe for long time.Yes i agree you need solid product for this.I suggest you to go for spam for lunch.


Love the edit


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Pour a self leveling micro topping on it and then apply your floor coating.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

You need use soperfectmarqueepaint. it so good. china food.


----------



## RemodelingHonolulu (Dec 18, 2013)

*Leveling Floor For Painting*



cdpainting said:


> We looked at a new garage floor to coat. It was done a year ago, passed the moisture test BUT when you walk across the floor you can literally feel the high and low spots, place a straight edge on the floor and there are major gaps plus cracks all over the place. When it rains out the rain comes in a side barn door and puddles in a bunch of different spots.
> 
> I told the HO the floor the way it is will end up failing from standing water on it. He said he tried to contact that contractor only to be blown off. My suggestion is contact a lawyer and go from there.
> 
> I wont feel comfortable charging some one over 6 grand for a job like this knowing it may fail.


 I agree" originally the HO should have had it resurfaced and repaired prior to painting" moreover epoxy would be a better choice"


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Use marquee for everything it covers in one coat no matter what you put it on.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> Use marquee for everything it covers in one coat no matter what you put it on.


It sure does! Just like the label says!


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Observation:

This thread addresses a newly poured concrete floor that has some high and lows. There probably weren't any tolerance specifications in the concrete contract. Regardless, the high and lows won't be a problem if the coating is non permeable. There are a number of epoxy polyamide coatings that will hold up to standing water. Many of these coatings are used on floors in chemical storage containments

As long as the moisture test results indicate that the vapor barrier under the concrete slab is preventing moisture from reaching the surface, I'd feel confident in applying the coatings mentioned.

I have applied Devoe's Novolac 100% solids epoxy in a Hypochlorite containment, about four years ago, and it is holding up great to this day. It may be over kill for CD's application. 

I just don't see the need to level the existing surface. I wouldn't trust the veneer over the monolithic pour of the concrete slab IMO. 

Note: Any project discussion that includes the term "barn" immediately down grades the severity of the job to me. Sorry.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Observation:
> 
> This thread addresses a newly poured concrete floor that has some high and lows. There probably weren't any tolerance specifications in the concrete contract. Regardless, the high and lows won't be a problem if the coating is non permeable. There are a number of epoxy polyamide coatings that will hold up to standing water. Many of these coatings are used on floors in chemical storage containments
> 
> ...


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I suppose you're right. 

Hey, slap that little [/QUOTE] at the end of my paragraph.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I suppose you're right.
> 
> Hey, slap that little


 at the end of my paragraph.[/QUOTE]

I'm still having problems with highlighting quotes on Chrome.:yes::yes:

See what it does? it breaks everything up weird.

How the hell did it put part of your quote in the quote box and the other part outside of it?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Maybe i should just use the internet for it's true intended purpose and go look at young women in bikinis the rest of the weekend.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Maybe i should just use the internet for it's true intended purpose and go look at young women in bikinis the rest of the weekend.


You can't leave. I'm off for the next six days, and SemiproJohn, and myself, need to be entertained. We also need IPP to step in with the stand up. He's like the Sabastion Mancusco of PT.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lets get back to the OT. 

Does this situation really require lawyers and such? The owner probably didn't even realize the floor has highs and lows until CD got out the straight edge and started pointing out all of the defects. Is this one of those cases where a mountain is being created out of mole hill?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> lets get back to the OT.
> 
> Does this situation really require lawyers and such? The owner probably didn't even realize the floor has highs and lows until CD got out the straight edge and started pointing out all of the defects. Is this one of those cases where a mountain is being created out of mole hill?


More then likely. As long as he discusses the issues with the owner and covers his butt everything is all good.

(I tried to turn "mountain out of a molehill" red but it didn't happen. Wth.)


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> More then likely. As long as he discusses the issues with the owner and covers his butt everything is all good.
> 
> (I tried to turn "mountain out of a molehill" red but it didn't happen. Wth.)


It's like you've entered the Tour De France on a Walmart tricycle. What's up son?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> It's like you've entered the Tour De France on a Walmart tricycle. What's up son?


Idk. Do you think it would look bad for my business if the cops got called because i was in the parking lot duke-ing it out with my Dell?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> It's like you've entered the Tour De France on a Walmart tricycle. What's up son?


Idk. Do you think it would look bad for my business if the cops got called because i was in the parking lot duke-ing it out with my Dell?

How about "it's like you painted the Vatican with Promar!"


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> lets get back to the OT.
> 
> Does this situation really require lawyers and such? The owner probably didn't even realize the floor has highs and lows until CD got out the straight edge and started pointing out all of the defects. Is this one of those cases where a mountain is being created out of mole hill?


Well, let's look at the facts:

1) In some way or another, the install was not done properly (it's far enough out of whack to cause concern regarding the coatings)
2) The owner will have to proceed in one of a few ways:


A) Get the concrete fixed (money they shouldn't have to spend)
B) Put on a coating that will fail prematurely (money eventually)
C) Spend more on an expensive coating that won't fail (again, money)

So no matter what, due to the original installers, the owner will now need to spend extra money either up front or over time. Further, it sounds like the original craftsmen are refusing to stand by their work. To me, that does sound like a problem. And since we don't know how bad it actually is, it doesn't make sense to me to speculate on whether or not it requires a straightedge to tell it's out of whack.

Just my 2c on it.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

The owner told me it held water, where the leak was coming from before I looked at it.

The driveway goes slightly up hill, I already knew it wasn't level so I stopped my truck and stared at it for a few seconds, you could see where the low spots were, the strait edge was so I could kind of gauge how far off it was. The HO dumped a gallon of water in it from the barn door and we watched how it traveled. 2 spots were almost 2" deep. That to me is a problem since the garage is barely a yeah old.

If I was a hack or didn't care about my work I would just slap a coat on and run to the bank.

Problem is I do care. No way especially with all that money in materials. I can't eat a job like that. I do not like getting calls back due to failures on my part. 

I will go ahead and put the product down if the HO says go for it. No warranty.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Pacman the contractor won't return his calls. If it was me damn right I would seek legal advice. This garage for a 2 bay is big. Even the expansion joints aren't straight, looks like the guy tried to free hand the cuts, all over the place, just like a drunk driver.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> Pacman the contractor won't return his calls. If it was me damn right I would seek legal advice. This garage for a 2 bay is big. Even the expansion joints aren't straight, looks like the guy tried to free hand the cuts, all over the place, just like a drunk driver.


Couple of things:

If the concrete contractor doesn't have a license, it's all a moot point. And if he does, but wasn't instructed to perform a finish with a flatness tolerances ( FF Number) as specified in a contract, any legal action is also moot.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Couple of things:
> 
> If the concrete contractor doesn't have a license, it's all a moot point. And if he does, but wasn't instructed to perform a finish with a flatness tolerances ( FF Number) as specified in a contract, any legal action is also moot.


I'm not sure that's accurate. If a plumber plumbs your toilet to drain into your sink, and then says "ah, well you forgot to instruct me to do it to a certain drainage tolerance." I think small claims will still rule in your favor  There's certain expectations, especially if you can prove it's potentially costing money or causing damage, which it clearly is in this case (costing money at the very least).


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> I'm not sure that's accurate. If a plumber plumbs your toilet to drain into your sink, and then says "ah, well you forgot to instruct me to do it to a certain drainage tolerance." I think small claims will still rule in your favor  There's certain expectations, especially if you can prove it's potentially costing money or causing damage, which it clearly is in this case (costing money at the very least).


Totally different building codes and requirements. Concrete slabs are to provide an adequate monolithic foundation either for support or as a platform. Tolerances for drainage requirements are to be specified. For example, a drain in the middle of the floor, or a crown to prevent standing water. 

In contrast, plumbing requires pitch tolerances.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So back to the engineering parameters of the concrete slab. If the moisture barrier is working, water permeating to the surface is not a concern. Standing water evaporates so that is not a concern. And standing water that is on an impermeable coating is not a concern as long as the coating is suited for immersion, and as long as there are no cracks in the concrete slab.

So at the end of the day, the concrete defects are merely aesthetic in nature, and do not qualify as a gross deficiency IMO.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Totally different building codes and requirements. Concrete slabs are to provide an adequate monolithic foundation either for support or as a platform. Tolerances for drainage requirements are to be specified. For example, a drain in the middle of the floor, or a crown to prevent standing water.
> 
> In contrast, plumbing requires pitch tolerances.


Regardless, the point is that you can't do bad quality work and then blame the HO for not specifying not to be terrible. There's a difference between meeting code standards and just not doing awful quality work. Similarly, I have a feeling if you were contracted to paint a house and you painted it with your fingers, small claims court wouldn't rule in your favor just because the contract didn't specify that the coating had to protect the house. Concrete slabs with 2" dips are clearly not acceptable, in any application.

At what point would you say that there's a problem with the concrete that should be resolved? 4"? 12"? 3 feet?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Regardless, the point is that you can't do bad quality work and then blame the HO for not specifying not to be terrible. There's a difference between meeting code standards and just not doing awful quality work. Similarly, I have a feeling if you were contracted to paint a house and you painted it with your fingers, small claims court wouldn't rule in your favor just because the contract didn't specify that the coating had to protect the house. Concrete slabs with 2" dips are clearly not acceptable, in any application.
> 
> At what point would you say that there's a problem with the concrete that should be resolved? 4"? 12"? 3 feet?


Frankly, if there was a concern, it should have been addressed a year ago. So if CD wants to assume responsibility for resurfacing the slab before he applies a coating, that's on him or the owner, and not the concrete contractor.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> So back to the engineering parameters of the concrete slab. If the moisture barrier is working, water permeating to the surface is not a concern. Standing water evaporates so that is not a concern. And standing water that is on an impermeable coating is not a concern as long as the coating is suited for immersion, and as long as there are no cracks in the concrete slab.


Standing water will cause coatings to fail, or cause you to have to purchase more expensive coatings, though. It can also cause long term issues with the concrete, especially if the barn isn't climate controlled. I'd expect eventual cracking, and safety issues as well.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Frankly, if there was a concern, it should have been addressed a year ago. So if CD wants to assume responsibility for resurfacing the slab before he applies a coating, that's on him or the owner, and not the concrete contractor.


In my humble opinion, just because the HO didn't know any better doesn't mean that the contractor didn't do something wrong. Successfully fooling people doesn't make what you've done right, no matter how much time passes. Just my opinion.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think we all like to point out other people's deficiencies. It really does make us feel better about ourselves. But if we also want to seek justice, we better have all our ducks in a row and be swift about it before our venture becomes irrelevant. Like the one in this thread.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Standing water will cause coatings to fail, or cause you to have to purchase more expensive coatings, though. It can also cause long term issues with the concrete, especially if the barn isn't climate controlled. I'd expect eventual cracking, and safety issues as well.


Manufacturers have addressed all of your concerns with immersable epoxy coatings that have been used off shore and in utility plants for years. And frankly, I would prefer a polyamide or even amine for garage floors to get the ultimate protection against hydrocarbon products like fuel, oil, and other machine fluids.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I think we all like to point out other people's deficiencies. It really does make us feel better about ourselves. But if we also want to seek justice, we better have all our ducks in a row and be swift about it before our venture becomes irrelevant. Like the one in this thread.


I don't rely on any external sources of self-worth. I'm comfortable and happy with who I am, but I appreciate your concern.

You've got 10 minutes more of me before I go enjoy my weekend (or sleep). Make it count!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Manufacturers have addressed all of your concerns with immersable epoxy coatings that have been used off shore and in utility plants for years. And frankly, I would prefer a polyamide or even amine for garage floors to get the ultimate protection against hydrocarbon products like fuel, oil, and other machine fluids.


No doubt they're better coatings- but the question this implicitly brings up is, shouldn't the contractor be liable for the extra cost that his job has thrust upon the owner? And yah, I'd always rather see a better quality coating, especially considering how badly tire rubber attacks some of the latex products out there that are used for cement sometimes.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

You're probably drifting off into your afternoon nap Drake. But before you begin drooling, I agree that a lot of issues can be avoided if good workmanship is applied with good direction and communication. Sweet dreams!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I nominate @Gough to play devil's advocate in my stead since I've both become incoherent and am on my way out the door. :thumbsup:


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> You can't leave. I'm off for the next six days, and SemiproJohn, and myself, need to be entertained. We also need IPP to step in with the stand up. He's like the *Sabastion Mancusco* of PT.


Never heard of that guy. Just did a google image search. I am nothing like him.

He dresses in all black, has receding hairline and a big nose.

I dress in all white, am completely bald and have an _extremely_ big nose.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> So back to the engineering parameters of the concrete slab. *If the moisture barrier is working,* water permeating to the surface is not a concern. Standing water evaporates so that is not a concern. And standing water that is on an impermeable coating is not a concern as long as the coating is suited for immersion, *and as long as there are no cracks in the concrete slab.*
> 
> So at the end of the day, the concrete defects are merely aesthetic in nature, and do not qualify as a gross deficiency IMO.


From the way CD described the drunken workmanship, I sort of assume a moisture barrier was more or less absent from the outset. And that cracks, if not apparent now, would be imminent.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I just think it is stupid for someone to contact a painter to beautify a garage floor when they can't keep rain water from infiltrating the garage they are trying to beautify.


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I paint paint said:


> From the way CD described the drunken workmanship, I sort of assume a moisture barrier was more or less absent from the outset. And that cracks, if not apparent now, would be imminent.


I was wondering how it would even be possible to determine if a moisture barrier was put down before the pouring of the concrete. And whether the barrier, if installed, had been compromised by tears or holes, allowing moisture to wick through the failed barrier and up through the concrete. Visqueen may have been put down, maybe not. How to tell?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Maybe a call to his home insurance carrier is in order. Before he has to make a flood claim. If he has flood insurance that is. If the insurance carrier refuses to insure the house because of the potential for water damage from a flood, then the homeowner does have a legal recourse. I know that this drainage issue wouldn't fly in the county were i live. If the water is coming back into an occupied dwelling and it has been since it was new, then the contractor is 100% liable in my county. I talked to an old high school friend of mine at walmart last night. He works for the county health department. Having water drain back into a dwelling is a major health issue. And, the original contractor can be held responsible for quite some time if the health department determines the design or construction was defective. There is no one year warranty period in Ohio when it comes to health issues. And if the garage is attached to the dwelling, ie. there is a door between the two, then the garage is legally part of an occupied dwelling and any water draining into it is legally draining into an occupied dwelling.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Maybe a call to his home insurance carrier is in order. Before he has to make a flood claim. If he has flood insurance that is. If the insurance carrier refuses to insure the house because of the potential for water damage from a flood, then the homeowner does have a legal recourse. I know that this drainage issue wouldn't fly in the county were i live. If the water is coming back into an occupied dwelling and it has been since it was new, then the contractor is 100% liable in my county. I talked to an old high school friend of mine at walmart last night. He works for the county health department. Having water drain back into a dwelling is a major health issue. And, the original contractor can be held responsible for quite some time if the health department determines the design or construction was defective. There is no one year warranty period in Ohio when it comes to health issues. And if the garage is attached to the dwelling, ie. there is a door between the two, then the garage is legally part of an occupied dwelling and any water draining into it is legally draining into an occupied dwelling.


But the concrete was never designed to keep water out. It is basically a slab designed to be a hard surface platform. Now if the intention was to keep water off the surface given its low profile to the adjacent grade of the property, the concern would be with its height and not how flat the surface of the slab is.

And BTW, every time I pull my car into the garage after driving in the rain, lo and behold, there's a puddle of water. And so far I have not suffered from Legionnaires Disease.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> But the concrete was never designed to keep water out. It is basically a slab designed to be a hard surface platform. Now if the intention was to keep water off the surface given its low profile to the adjacent grade of the property, the concern would be with its height and not how flat the surface of the slab is.
> 
> And BTW, every time I pull my car into the garage after driving in the rain, lo and behold, there's a puddle of water. And so far I have not suffered from Legionnaires Disease.


Maybe craftsmanship is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe we're all relying on a bit too much hyperbole. Maybe not.

Aren't you glad I'm back for another half day? I'm heartbroken you didn't mention me in people you want to stick around for the weekend.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess my biggest concern is that we shouldn't confuse moral issues with legal issues. I think it's fairly clear the original contractor didn't do a good job and also isn't behaving well now. That's my point of contention, regardless of legality.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> I guess my biggest concern is that we shouldn't confuse moral issues with legal issues. I think it's fairly clear the original contractor didn't do a good job and also isn't behaving well now. That's my point of contention, regardless of legality.


Most of these discussions seem to be built around the morality and ethics of good workmanship verses the deviousness of poor workmanship. It's like PT is the Trades Monestary of the Internet. We suffer in our perfection and righteous indignation. 

It's very easy to judge others and point out the moral deficiencies in how people conduct business in a fast moving technical age. But unless we are prepared to act, it's just another sermon that I can't bring myself to present to the PT congregation.

And what I mean by acting, is to hold those accountable who enable poor workmanship, namely, homeowners. If a proper contract was used , in many cases, rather than a hand shake, promise, and a beer, these issues could be addressed before the poor painter, with all of his integrity and moral strength, has to point it out.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> I was wondering how it would even be possible to determine if a moisture barrier was put down before the pouring of the concrete. And whether the barrier, if installed, had been compromised by tears or holes, allowing moisture to wick through the failed barrier and up through the concrete. Visqueen may have been put down, maybe not. How to tell?


I don't think you can tell.

I think all you can do is tape a sheet of plastic to the floor and come back later to look for trapped moisture.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> But the concrete was never designed to keep water out. It is basically a slab designed to be a hard surface platform. Now if the intention was to keep water off the surface given its low profile to the adjacent grade of the property, the concern would be with its height and not how flat the surface of the slab is.
> 
> And BTW, every time I pull my car into the garage after driving in the rain, lo and behold, there's a puddle of water. And so far I have not suffered from Legionnaires Disease.


But, it isn't carrying trichinosis from the Amish hogs next door either! I'm going by what the health department's water and sewage specialist it telling me. I don't have a clue, that's why i asked him. I have had a similar problem with my garage. He told me that he could by law condemn my house until it got fixed. And if it was a design flaw the builder could probably still be partially responsible FIFTY years after the house was built. I thought he was nuts but he has been doing this for 25 years! Who am I to argue with such a crap expert. I mean I like to think I know my crap, but this guy is a true poo expert!:vs_poop::biggrin:


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> But, it isn't carrying trichinosis from the Amish hogs next door either! I'm going by what the health department's water and sewage specialist it telling me. I don't have a clue, that's why i asked him. I have had a similar problem with my garage. He told me that he could by law condemn my house until it got fixed. And if it was a design flaw the builder could probably still be partially responsible FIFTY years after the house was built. I thought he was nuts but he has been doing this for 25 years! Who am I to argue with such a crap expert. I mean I like to think I know my crap, but this guy is a true poo expert!:vs_poop::biggrin:


I don't know about your building permit requirements, but if the building was inspected during construction, all of those issues should have been addressed. 

And if this thread's subject required a building permit, but one was not obtained, again, litigation becomes moot. I say pour a bunch of a self leveling Sika epoxy product on the slab and call it good.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I don't know about your building permit requirements, but if the building was inspected during construction, all of those issues should have been addressed.
> 
> .


The building codes in our two localities are not vastly different, but you clearly put a lot more faith in your BOs than I do in ours, especially when things are busy.

We're in the midst of another seemingly bottomless "building-boom echo" project. These are the projects where we are called in the fix stuff that wasn't done right when the house was built in the 1990-2006 boom. This particular home was built in 2001.

Yesterday's discovery: the omission of a $1.50 piece of metal, a code-required kickout flashing, led to this:









Rotted OSB trim, delaminated F/C siding, and remains of OSB sheathing. This is at the top of a 30-foot wall. Tuesday will reveal the extent of the damage. At least one window will need to be removed and reinstalled, possibly more. I am hoping that the framing is unaffected. 

At a bare minimum, this will probably be a $2000-3000 repair, but I anticipate it could be a lot more.

PS. It's not as if we're living in a rain forest. We average 20-25 inches of precip annually.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't know about your building permit requirements, but if the building was inspected during construction, all of those issues should have been addressed.
> 
> And if this thread's subject required a building permit, but one was not obtained, again, litigation becomes moot. I say pour a bunch of a self leveling Sika epoxy product on the slab and call it good.


If the surface profile is sufficient they should get a good amount of wear out of it that way. But when it does need redone they will have to use a scarifier(?) to prep it. But, that's the fun of self leveling epoxies. They either work or they come off as a good thick solid piece.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> The building codes in our two localities are not vastly different, but you clearly put a lot more faith in your BOs than I do in ours, especially when things are busy.
> 
> We're in the midst of another seemingly bottomless "building-boom echo" project. These are the projects where we are called in the fix stuff that wasn't done right when the house was built in the 1990-2006 boom. This particular home was built in 2001.
> 
> ...


Not an M/I home is it?


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> Not an M/I home is it?


I guess I'm not sure...

Mission Impossible?

Myocardial Infarction?

Michigan/Indiana?

EDIT: I actually had to look that up. Nope. It's a local builder, one who's generally held in high regard. Apparently, that may not be so well deserved.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Most of these discussions seem to be built around the morality and ethics of good workmanship verses the deviousness of poor workmanship. It's like PT is the Trades Monestary of the Internet. We suffer in our perfection and righteous indignation.
> 
> It's very easy to judge others and point out the moral deficiencies in how people conduct business in a fast moving technical age. But unless we are prepared to act, it's just another sermon that I can't bring myself to present to the PT congregation.
> 
> And what I mean by acting, is to hold those accountable who enable poor workmanship, namely, homeowners. If a proper contract was used , in many cases, rather than a hand shake, promise, and a beer, these issues could be addressed before the poor painter, with all of his integrity and moral strength, has to point it out.


Is your point, then, that because I have my own failings (be they physical, moral, intellectual) that when I point out others it's somehow less valid? I don't subscribe to relative morality- if a mass murderer comes by and says "hey, you're not doing that to code," is he any less right because of his own sins?

You seem hung up on your perception that some people here get off on pointing out the failings of others, and that seems particularly pointed at me. As I've said before, I've no interest in putting other people down. I'm simply discussing what's right or wrong in this scenario. I don't need other people's failings to qualify my own.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Is your point, then, that because I have my own failings (be they physical, moral, intellectual) that when I point out others it's somehow less valid? I don't subscribe to relative morality- if a mass murderer comes by and says "hey, you're not doing that to code," is he any less right because of his own sins?
> 
> You seem hung up on your perception that some people here get off on pointing out the failings of others, and that seems particularly pointed at me. As I've said before, I've no interest in putting other people down. I'm simply discussing what's right or wrong in this scenario. I don't need other people's failings to qualify my own.


My point is, we all can recognize poor workmanship. But to turn it into lawyers, liens, and liability after the fact, is an exercise in futility. CD pointing out the defects on the concrete surface only serves to protect himself, not the homeowner. That ship has sailed. If CD doesn't want to assume any liability, he needs to move on. That's my point. 

And I'm really not singling Drake out as the PT Boy Scout. I just think the Internet enables all of us the opportunity to express our virtues. I do it all the time. I absolutely believe I'm a better painter than anyone else here. But I'm too humble to express that.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I tried to find some virtues somewhere in me once. All I could find were cobwebs and some pocket lint.


----------

