# Proper mil thickness vs 2 coats question



## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Just got me a mil thickness gauge today. I am trying to improve, guys so help me understand something.

I use a fair amount of pro mar 200. In the spec sheet it calls for 4 mil thickness. 

I can easily exceed that when i spray & backroll.

Should i apply 1 coat @ 4 mil or 2 coats @ 2 mil or 2 coats @ 4 mil?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

4 mil WFT or DFT?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Pro mar 200 on drywall. Nobody cares and it doesn't matter. Just needs to look good.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

driftweed said:


> Just got me a mil thickness gauge today. I am trying to improve, guys so help me understand something.
> 
> I use a fair amount of pro mar 200. In the spec sheet it calls for 4 mil thickness.
> 
> ...


I haven't run into a situation where I've needed a specific mil thickness for acrylics, but I know with epoxies to much in one coat can be cause for an ' inspector failure '.

I would probably try and do it in 2, to much paint to fast could cause runs, etc


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Painters tend to over think things


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, what is the goal of what your doing? If its just to have a good covered paint job then two coats @2mil or one @4 will often accomplish that.
If you want the best looking finish possible while still saving a bit on material try first coat @2, and second coat @4. 

For the best looking job that will have a solid material warranty, you need two coats @4. 

That's how I look at it anyway. Mil build is about a lot more than just coverage. It affects how well the film flows out and durability. When a paint is rated for so many scrub cycles, etc., that is all dependent on the thickness of the film being what it's supposed to be. 

I think you will find paying attention to your thickness can be a big help in understanding why coatings behave the way they do at different times and achieving optimal results.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Bender said:


> 4 mil WFT or DFT?



Assuming he's talking about WFT as that's what can easily be checked with a gauge.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Coverage: 350 - 400 sq ft/gal
@ 4 mils wet; 1.6 mils dry
per coat
I'm no scientist but if that is what they recommend then that is probably what you should do


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Something you should consider also is your transfer efficiency. In airless its between 65-70%.

So when you spray 15 gals only 10 are actually going on. Lets say your using a .017" tip putting on about a 1/5th of a gal for a minute of spray time, also known as flow rate.

So now your going to cover 75-80 ft with 1 minute of trigger time. When you break out your trusty wet film thickness gauge you'll see its going to be around 4 mils wet. Spread Rate

BTW the spec is 2 coats 4 mils wet .017"-021". Just be glad its not 2 part PPG thats $1250.00 a 5er


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Robladd makes a good point. Footage numbers given assume %100 transfer efficiency which never happens with spray or roll.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Robladd makes a good point. Footage numbers given assume %100 transfer efficiency which never happens with spray or roll.


That's not true at all? Transfer efficiency does not correlate to lost paint. When I spray an exterior of a house with 20 gallons through the pump, 7 gallons does not just disappear as loss or overspray. Just an example.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

So MC how many gallons are you putting? I know that spray painter performance varies. But every sprayer has 3 factors of waste. Overspray, Bounce Back and Fogging.

Even if your on top of your game your still not going to get 100% TE from an airless. I believe I have gotten 90% in AAA.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> That's not true at all? Transfer efficiency does not correlate to lost paint. When I spray an exterior of a house with 20 gallons through the pump, 7 gallons does not just disappear as loss or overspray. Just an example.



I don't just mean loss from spraying, and I haven't personally verified the exact numbers he's talking about. When you cut and roll a certain amount of paint is lost. On the side of the roller bucket, soaked up into the nap, washed down the sink when you wash a brush. 

The numbers given by the manufactured take none of this into account, or overspray for that matter. Most of them (manufactures) tell you this in the fine print. 

What I have noticed is if I am getting perfect footage, say 400 per gallon, it means I'm not actually getting 4mil on.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If you're spraying something like this, there will be a decrease in transfer efficiency. For sure.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

driftweed said:


> Should i apply 1 coat @ 4 mil or 2 coats @ 2 mil or 2 coats @ 4 mil?


The TDS does not state at what WFT to apply this coating, only that at 4 mil WFT you will get 1.7 mils DFT (white base, eggshell, 42% SBV +/- 2%). If application thickness was important (like it is with industrial coatings) they would explicitly state what WFT to apply the coating in the "application" section of the TDS (alternatively, they may just tell you the required/recommended DFT).

In most instances, you would still apply two coats to reach the recommended DFT. For other coatings, the TDS will explicity tell you to apply a single coat. 

All the info you need will always be on the TDS.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Rcon for president. 

"Oh captain, my captain!"

-Dead Poets Society


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Like I said before......Over thinkin it!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Rcon for president.
> 
> "Oh captain, my captain!"
> 
> -Dead Poets Society


That's what I'm talkin about.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

o.k. o.k. Let me elaborate further:

Here is my thinking: When I go train new employees, I believe using the mil thickness gauge would be a great tool in showing them that they are either putting it on either too thick or too thin. Now, we have all seen those guys that bleed a roller way to far. And no matter how many times you tell them that's not okay, they still do it. Or they guys that slap it on so dang thick its ridiculous. 

I would like to use this tool to teach proper application methods. Have the trainee paint a room, check it with the gauge and take corrective action. 

Now I know, as an apartment painter this is irrelevant as all we have to do is just get it on the walls and its fine. But if I can teach good practices, and get good results, I can further my already good name in my particular industry.

I just picked up my second apartment complex, and will have to hire to keep up as now I will be responsible for a total of 350 units. 1 guy can only do so much! But I got the new customer because of a referral from the complex I currently paint. These complexes are getting tired of crappy work and have come to realize they are just going to have to pay for decent work.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

driftweed said:


> o.k. o.k. Let me elaborate further: Here is my thinking: When I go train new employees, I believe using the mil thickness gauge would be a great tool in showing them that they are either putting it on either too thick or too thin. Now, we have all seen those guys that bleed a roller way to far. And no matter how many times you tell them that's not okay, they still do it. Or they guys that slap it on so dang thick its ridiculous. I would like to use this tool to teach proper application methods. Have the trainee paint a room, check it with the gauge and take corrective action. Now I know, as an apartment painter this is irrelevant as all we have to do is just get it on the walls and its fine. But if I can teach good practices, and get good results, I can further my already good name in my particular industry. I just picked up my second apartment complex, and will have to hire to keep up as now I will be responsible for a total of 350 units. 1 guy can only do so much! But I got the new customer because of a referral from the complex I currently paint. These complexes are getting tired of crappy work and have come to realize they are just going to have to pay for decent work.


IMO now I are way overthinking. Ur gonna confuse the issue with someone just getting into the trade. Monkey see. Monkey do. In this thing. It's not too hard to get a guy on the right tract if u make him ur partner for a bit and show him the ropes. Ur not using a mil gauge. How could introducing him to one be helpful.

The way u seem to be knocking out units and the volume u do of that one thing somebody if they have the desire will pick up on what they need to be doing. Working alongside of you. Pretty quick. I'd think.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Painters tend to over think things


I think its good to know how much paint you are actually applying. Checking with a mil guage lets you know for certain.

However like our wise resident union painter wisely said. Its pm 200 just make it look good. :thumbsup:


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

robladd said:


> So MC how many gallons are you putting? I know that spray painter performance varies. But every sprayer has 3 factors of waste. Overspray, Bounce Back and Fogging.
> 
> Even if your on top of your game your still not going to get 100% TE from an airless. I believe I have gotten 90% in AAA.


I know this branch off, does not pertain to the OP. But you are referring to the standard that airless must achieve, 65% TE. HVLP, AAA will obviously give a higher result. 65% does not mean this is the norm for all applications. When spraying a wall or exterior, such as in my example, I know for a fact that 7 gallons of paint is not sitting on the ground or tarp as overspray. That is alot of material. Either way, I agree there is some loss whatever the method, airless being the most.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Guys this is freakin apartments and drywall. The only time a mil Guage has ever come into play would be indusrltrial/ military application. Epoxies and other coatings that cost a little more than $15 a gallon and are important for guarding against rust or in food service operations


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Yep. Can't say I've ever been stunned by how far pm200 goes, and cant say the opposite. Its just...
paint.


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

what if 15% thinner is added to the paint? then how should you read the wet film gauge?:whistling2:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

mustangmike3789 said:


> what if 15% thinner is added to the paint? then how should you read the wet film gauge?:whistling2:


I know how to use a sling psychrometer. Put it on fast or put it on to last.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I'm not saying I would routinely follow employees and enforce mil thickness...thats just silly. But on day one with a complete newb to painting it could come in handy to give them a rough idea of where they stand in applying paint. Kinda reinforcement tool other than saying: yup you need more paint.

As far as my other question it was kinda just out of curiosity as to why the 2 coats if you already meet the specs in the first coat?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I think it's a good idea. So what if its just apartments, you want your paint jobs to perform at maximum just like anybody else. Besides you might not always be doing apts. I've used one extensively in training my apprentice. 

There are certainly practical applications. I'm working with some guys lately, classic thin coaters. A couple of them were trying to paint a dark pink bedroom and were having a real hard time covering it. Cutting in three and four times to get coverage, rolling three times. I used the gauge to show them that the reason that they were having problems was about a 2mil application with the roller, as less than that with a brush. 

One thing I would suggest is don't expect painters to be able to change their application thickness immediately. People get used to painting like they do, and it's not so easy to add or subtract a mil or two from your technique. Especially with hand painting (brush/roll), it takes practice and different techniques to adjust that successfully. Spraying is a little easier to adjust.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I think it's a good idea. So what if its just apartments, you want your paint jobs to perform at maximum just like anybody else. Besides you might not always be doing apts. I've used one extensively in training my apprentice.
> 
> There are certainly practical applications. I'm working with some guys lately, classic thin coaters. A couple of them were trying to paint a dark pink bedroom and were having a real hard time covering it. Cutting in three and four times to get coverage, rolling three times. I used the gauge to show them that the reason that they were having problems was about a 2mil application with the roller, as less than that with a brush.
> 
> One thing I would suggest is don't expect painters to be able to change their application thickness immediately. People get used to painting like they do, and it's not so easy to add or subtract a mil or two from your technique. Especially with hand painting (brush/roll), it takes practice and different techniques to adjust that successfully. Spraying is a little easier to adjust.


Doesn't sound like you are using much of a vetting process in your hiring. Don't get me wrong.I've never hired anyone who said "I'm not really that good of a painter" So some do slip through but if there performing as you say then they will not work out around here and you probably have them in a position they aren't ready for


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> Doesn't sound like you are using much of a vetting process in your hiring. Don't get me wrong.I've never hired anyone who said "I'm not really that good of a painter" So some do slip through but if there performing as you say then they will not work out around here and you probably have them in a position they aren't ready for



Pretty limited options here, it's such a rural area. Actually the guys I was referring too are good solid guys. Good attitude, show up on time, stable lifestyles, etc.. They just have never been classically trained. So they are painters in the sense that they have tried really hard to "figure it out". But without any real training, you are bound to miss some important things. 

In my admittedly limited experience, thin application is one of the main mistakes people make trying to paint.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Jmayspaint said:


> Pretty limited options here, it's such a rural area. Actually the guys I was referring too are good solid guys. Good attitude, show up on time, stable lifestyles, etc.. They just have never been classically trained. So they are painters in the sense that they have tried really hard to "figure it out". But without any real training, you are bound to miss some important things.
> 
> In my admittedly limited experience, thin application is one of the main mistakes people make trying to paint.


I have the same problem around here. Yeah there are some good guys, but they all come with there plus and minuses.

Heck, if they were as good as me, they wouldn't work for an a-hole like me:jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> what if 15% thinner is added to the paint? then how should you read the wet film gauge?:whistling2:


Promar 200 Zero VOC Interior Flat, Recommended film thickness:

WFT @ 4 mils
DFT @ 1.6 mils
SBV @ 41%
Thinner- 15%

*WFT*= DFT @ 0.0160 X 100/Solids By volume @ 0.41%= *4 mils WFT*

*WFT(w/thinner)=* DFT @ 0.0160 X (100+0.15% Thinner)/Solid By Volume @ 0.41%= *4.26 mils WFT*


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I dunno about anybody else, but I'm sick of this thread...


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> I dunno about anybody else, but I'm sick of this thread...



What's a matter TJ, not feeling the grove of our discussion of the minutia of coatings application? 
Perhaps a lively debate on the merits of cutting in ceilings would be more appropriate? :jester:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> What's a matter TJ, not feeling the grove of our discussion of the minutia of coatings application?
> Perhaps a lively debate on the merits of cutting in ceilings would be more appropriate? :jester:


how about which brush or do you use a paint pan or not?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> I think it's a good idea. So what if its just apartments, you want your paint jobs to perform at maximum just like anybody else. Besides you might not always be doing apts. I've used one extensively in training my apprentice. There are certainly practical applications. I'm working with some guys lately, classic thin coaters. A couple of them were trying to paint a dark pink bedroom and were having a real hard time covering it. Cutting in three and four times to get coverage, rolling three times. I used the gauge to show them that the reason that they were having problems was about a 2mil application with the roller, as less than that with a brush. One thing I would suggest is don't expect painters to be able to change their application thickness immediately. People get used to painting like they do, and it's not so easy to add or subtract a mil or two from your technique. Especially with hand painting (brush/roll), it takes practice and different techniques to adjust that successfully. Spraying is a little easier to adjust.


We learn from being showed not told. And by showed -.showed up works best. IMO
I won't tell a dry roller nothing. Counterproductive IMO. He is not inclined to beleive he has been doing his job findamentally wrong for whatever amount of time he has been at it. He thinks he is complety competent. He gets the paint on the wall. He has always done it like this. It doesn't matteras long as the job gets done. He gets the job done------ all ignorant beleives----but he beleives em.

I'll get up next to him or by him and steady beat the snot out of him. On the walls. I won't break a sweat whle he is killing himself trying to and not coming even close to keeping up. Sooner or later he'll get curious. That is when a person is open to learning a new way. You got to beat the baldzz off of em and make them curious as to how are you doing it. Then let em in on how. Show em the big secret you know.

Worked on me and sill does


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> We learn from being showed not told. And by showed -.showed up works best. IMO
> I won't tell a dry roller nothing. Counterproductive IMO. He is not inclined to beleive he has been doing his job findamentally wrong for whatever amount of time he has been at it. He thinks he is complety competent. He gets the paint on the wall. He has always done it like this. It doesn't matteras long as the job gets done. He gets the job done------ all ignorant beleives----but he beleives em.
> 
> I'll get up next to him or by him and steady beat the snot out of him. On the walls. I won't break a sweat whle he is killing himself trying to and not coming even close to keeping up. Sooner or later he'll get curious. That is when a person is open to learning a new way. You got to beat the baldzz off of em and make them curious as to how are you doing it. Then let em in on how. Show em the big secret you know.
> ...


But aren't you impressed with my math skills?:brows:


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Promar 200 Zero VOC Interior Flat, Recommended film thickness:
> 
> WFT @ 4 mils
> DFT @ 1.6 mils
> ...


I'm getting 4.5 WFT to achieve 1.6 DFT with the new SBV of 35.6% after thinning 15%, but I could be wrong.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Every time I see WTF
I think WTF
Lol


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> I'm getting 4.5 WFT to achieve 1.6 DFT with the new SBV of 35.6% after thinning 15%, but I could be wrong.


So with the 5.4% less SBV, I can see why you would need to apply a thicker wet film. I actually calculated a need for a 5 mil WFT in order to achieve a 1.6 mil DFT, based on the formula and information you've provided. But i could be wrong.

Maybe we should just pay attention to Oden and forget all this math.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> I'm getting 4.5 WFT to achieve 1.6 DFT with the new SBV of 35.6% after thinning 15%, but I could be wrong.


Now I see what you did. You deducted the SBV% by adding the thinner. But does the SBV% actually change from the original SBV, even with the addition of the thinner? I've got to rethink how I'm using the formula.:blink:


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> So with the 5.4% less SBV, I can see why you would need to apply a thicker wet film. I actually calculated a need for a 5 mil WFT in order to achieve a 1.6 mil DFT, based on the formula and information you've provided. But i could be wrong.
> 
> *Maybe we should just pay attention to Oden *and forget all this math.


I don't know about the rest of you, and I know none of you personally. However, after reading threads for a little over a year now, I've come to a conclusion.

If I had a lot of painting to do and a very short time in which to do it, and I could choose one person to help me

1. Decide quickly how to best knock out the prep work,
2. Choose the appropriate primer/topcoat,
3. Help me paint that sucker,

Oden would be the guy I would like to have with me. At the very least, I think I could count on him not to be too critical of my skills as he paints circles around me. :thumbsup:


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

no big deal. i was just throwing some stuff into the mix so that a could follow this thread and also show some examples of making corrections when using a WFT gauge. 4.3 or 4.5 mils would still make me apply the paint at 5.0 mils since most gauges are in 1.0 mil increments.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Oden said:


> We learn from being showed not told. And by showed -.showed up works best. IMO
> I won't tell a dry roller nothing. Counterproductive IMO. He is not inclined to beleive he has been doing his job findamentally wrong for whatever amount of time he has been at it. He thinks he is complety competent. He gets the paint on the wall. He has always done it like this. It doesn't matteras long as the job gets done. He gets the job done------ all ignorant beleives----but he beleives em.
> 
> I'll get up next to him or by him and steady beat the snot out of him. On the walls. I won't break a sweat whle he is killing himself trying to and not coming even close to keeping up. Sooner or later he'll get curious. That is when a person is open to learning a new way. You got to beat the baldzz off of em and make them curious as to how are you doing it. Then let em in on how. Show em the big secret you know.
> ...


Racers, Pacers, and Slugs Oden. They all fall into one of those categories:yes:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

mustangmike3789 said:


> I'm getting 4.5 WFT to achieve 1.6 DFT with the new SBV of 35.6% after thinning 15%, but I could be wrong.


All Im going to do is change my spread rate. 300-340' mic it and get the desired DFT.:thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

mustangmike3789 said:


> no big deal. i was just throwing some stuff into the mix so that a could follow this thread and also show some examples of making corrections when using a WFT gauge. 4.3 or 4.5 mils would still make me apply the paint at 5.0 mils since most gauges are in 1.0 mil increments.


I was going to post that I didn't think anyone could actually measure .5 mils with a WFT gauge, but I didn't have one in front of me to verify that:blink:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Bender said:


> Racers, Pacers, and Slugs Oden. They all fall into one of those categories:yes:


Hand raised in recognition of Slug.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Now I see what you did. You deducted the SBV% by adding the thinner. But does the SBV% actually change from the original SBV, even with the addition of the thinner? I've got to rethink how I'm using the formula.:blink:



I'm thinking it would. If you have a solution at 41 SBV thinned %15 with a solution at 0 SBV, wouldn't you have a solution at 26 SBV? 

Of course water is not 0 SBV.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I'm thinking it would. If you have a solution at 41 SBV thinned %15 with a solution at 0 SBV, wouldn't you have a solution at 26 SBV?
> 
> Of course water is not 0 SBV.


Actually, I believe I did read the formula wrong.

Like MustangMike mentioned, and you mentioned about increasing the volume, I believe the formula reads likes this:

1.6 mils X 100+15%=*115*, which becomes 1.6 mils X 115=1.84

1.84 divided by .41% SBV =4.487 rounded off to *4.5 mils*.

Moral of the story, always listen to the inspectors.

Thanks Mike!


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Now I see what you did. You deducted the SBV% by adding the thinner. But does the SBV% actually change from the original SBV, even with the addition of the thinner? :blink:


yes it does. if you add 15% thinner you will increase the volume but not the solids. so in turn your solids by volume does decrease. since the thinner will evaporate and leave the paint film, you must adjust your SBV to calculate your new WFT measurements.


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I was going to post that I didn't think anyone could actually measure .5 mils with a WFT gauge, but I didn't have one in front of me to verify that:blink:


the good ones will. most of the ones from the paint stores only increase by 1.0 mils. 
this link should make it a little easier to follow as far as adjusting for thinner.
http://www.paintsquare.com/learning/?fuseaction=video&videoID=47&collectionID=1


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

holy crap this turned into quite the educational thread! keep it coming!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

hmm. if you reduce, the film will dry thinner...


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

That's why you have to adjust your wet film on thickness to achieve the minimum dry film thickness.
If I was painting a house, I wouldn't be too concerned about any of this unless it was specified to do so. I would just apply two good coats to get good coverage and a uniform appearance. My jobs require that I meet a minimum DFT per coat that will be checked and documented , so knowing this is a must. We will adjust the amount of thinner used in different paints to achieve viscosity, and leveling properties or to meet VOC requirements.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Damn I thought you just opened the can and rolled it on.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

mustangmike3789 said:


> I'm getting 4.5 WFT to achieve 1.6 DFT with the new SBV of 35.6% after thinning 15%, but I could be wrong.


No you've got it right. 

Formula is DFT/(SBV % / 100% + thinner)

1.6/(0.41/1.15) = 4.49


EDIT: nvm....I see this has already been discussed in some length :jester:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

As my Brit friends overseas would say: "this is a bloody wankfest!".

but I suppose without it, PT would have 99.9% less content...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> As my Brit friends overseas would say: "this is a bloody wankfest!".
> 
> but I suppose without it, PT would have 99.9% less content...


Painters have gotten along just fine for decades by looking at paint as simply a liquid that needs to be applied to a vertical surface without having it run, drip, or pull. Subsequently, the painter would develop skills that allowed him to perform these tasks with the speed and ease of carefully executed brush or spray strokes.

That's how I looked at painting until I started learning more about the physics of paint, and the instruments used to measure the conditions that affect the paints performance. Its really the science and logistics of painting that now interests me more then the actual finish.

Its almost like after years of experience, the finish almost falls into place automatically once you have a micro understanding of paint, and a grasp of the logistics that allow you to apply it efficiently.


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