# ? On sanding with orbtial prior to staining



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

So we don't do a lot of stain / clear coat interior work. Last year when we were doing a job and I just got my festool dts-400 and vac we used it to sand some doors prior to staining. My guy said there was a lot of the little swirl marks from the sander and he had to buff them out by hand. I'm not sure what grit we used, I'm thinking 180 or so. 
Now we have another job where we have to buff out a lot of drip marks on previously clear coated doors which shouldn't be too bad, but then also sand and Benite / stain / clear coat a bunch of 1x4 new hemlock trim. I'd like to be able to use the sander to keep down dust and speed up production. I'm sure some of you guys do this all the time. Any feedback? Thanks! 
Ps the stain will be a medium light oil pigmented Dalys stain if that makes a difference. Not a gel stain nor tinted varnish.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

For me it works to make the last pass of the sander kinda slow with light pressure. 

I took a job finishing new maple cabinets one time for a cabinet shop. I thought I knew how to sand then, but after staining my first set of drawer fronts I realized I didn't. 
After several sets I finally got to where I didn't have to re sand many pieces. 

It's hard to explain exactly how to do it, but using an orbital without leaving swirl marks is possible. It just takes practice. If you really look hard, they can be seen and dealt with before staining.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> So we don't do a lot of stain / clear coat interior work. Last year when we were doing a job and I just got my festool dts-400 and vac we used it to sand some doors prior to staining. My guy said there was a lot of the little swirl marks from the sander and he had to buff them out by hand. I'm not sure what grit we used, I'm thinking 180 or so.
> Now we have another job where we have to buff out a lot of drip marks on previously clear coated doors which shouldn't be too bad, but then also sand and Benite / stain / clear coat a bunch of 1x4 new hemlock trim. I'd like to be able to use the sander to keep down dust and speed up production. I'm sure some of you guys do this all the time. Any feedback? Thanks!
> Ps the stain will be a medium light oil pigmented Dalys stain if that makes a difference. Not a gel stain nor tinted varnish.


I think the most important thing we learned was to NOT move the sander quickly. There is this temptation to move rapidly, which results in the swirl marks. It almost turns into a Zen thing.

A different approach with the drip marks might be to scrape them first, using either a cabinet scraper or a razor blade used like a cabinet scraper. It's tough to power sand drips without taking off too much material in the surrounding area. Another way is to use a dead-flat sanding block with some PSA paper stuck on it.

I know a lot of guys use Benite with good results, but we've been happier with a thinned coat of SealCoat as a stain controller, especially on Hemlock. We hit it with 320 before applying the stain. This also makes the clear coats lay down smoother and require less sanding.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yes, I agree with Gough on not moving the sander too fast. There is a sweet spot with an orbital, I call it being "on plane". 
If you move the sander slowly, almost just let it move on its own, it will get into a rhythm where the machine is most effective and will not leave swirls.. When you hit that sweet spot the machine just glides across the board. Going slower becomes working faster because the sander is operating at peak efficiency.


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## doctors11 (May 17, 2010)

Also, when you think you're done sanding vacuum, and wipe off dust. Then dampen a cloth with either water (if stain is water-based) or mineral spirits ( if stain is oil based) and wipe down again. Before the water or spirits dry look carefully and the swirl marks will show up darker than the surrounding area. Very lightly circle those areas with pencil. When dry do a light scuff sanding by hand, with the grain in those areas. You may want to scuff the entire surface to even out the final finish. Don't be afraid to damp wipe a second or third time to make sure all the marks are gone.

Better to catch them before rather than after staining.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The ETS 125 does not leave swirls since it is a random orbit. The rts and dts 400 models are orbital and I have a harder time with them to stay swirl free as well.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I think 180 grit was too high for stain grade. We go up to 320 before applying stain. 150-220-320, and then a light 320 hand buffing with the grain after applying sealer.

And make sure to turn the extractor suction all the way down.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> The ETS 125 does not leave swirls since it is a random orbit. The rts and dts 400 models are orbital and I have a harder time with them to stay swirl free as well.


We learned the hard way that ROs will leave (partial) swirls if the operator moves the sander too fast. It's not nearly the problem that it is with orbitals, but it still can happen. They are small arcs, but can be pretty noticeable with some woods/stains.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I am sure they all can, but RO has usually not been a problem. The delta and square ones are not RO, so more of a battle.

BTW, Straightlines, 320 grit? If you are using a wiping stain, how does any stain stay behind? Might as well buff the wood to a high gloss and skip the finish


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> I am sure they all can, but RO has usually not been a problem. The delta and square ones are not RO, so more of a battle.
> 
> BTW, Straightlines, 320 grit? If you are using a wiping stain, how does any stain stay behind? Might as well buff the wood to a high gloss and skip the finish


We've only really had it be a problem when a guy sweeps the sander in some big arc very quickly...like across the face of a flush door...at eye level

I wondered about that 320 as well. Some of the wiping stains are specific about NOT sanding with higher grits.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

That's what they make finishing sanders for. Little quarter sheet sander can save you some potential problems later on. Depending on the wood and stain, I wouldn't go much over 320 though with the finishing sander I can usually stay at 220.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Gough said:


> We've only really had it be a problem when a guy sweeps the sander in some big arc very quickly...like across the face of a flush door...at eye level
> 
> I wondered about that 320 as well. Some of the wiping stains are specific about NOT sanding with higher grits.


A couple of the sealers I use recommend 320. Stain penetration isn't a problem, but it solves a lot of blotching.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I can see it help with botching. Dye stains would be fine as well. I have found that for clear finishing with wb's that 320 or finer is needed between coats now.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> A couple of the sealers I use recommend 320. Stain penetration isn't a problem, but it solves a lot of blotching.


I know that's what we sand our "spit coats" of thinned SealCoat with. That's our go-to stain controller.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> I know that's what we sand our "spit coats" of thinned SealCoat with. That's our go-to stain controller.


How much are you typically thinning the Seal Coat as a pre-stain conditioner? I just had a clear coat job over hem/fir. Used the seal coat full strength followed by crystal-fin. Looked great. But we hand sanded and didn't need to stain on that one.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> We've only really had it be a problem when a guy sweeps the sander in some big arc very quickly...like across the face of a flush door...at eye level I wondered about that 320 as well. Some of the wiping stains are specific about NOT sanding with higher grits.


Yeah the Benite says sand to 120, apply Benite, sand with 220, stain and finish. 

My Dalys rep suggested wiping all the new wood first with water to pop the grain, then sand when dry, Benite and stain.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have never done the water step to pop the grain first. I have been tempted to try it. We switched to using seal coat usually as a first coat instead.

When using SealCoat as a pre-stain sealer, I cut it 50%. That does get sanded with pretty fine sandpaper since it does not raise the grain and you do not want to burn through it. 

320 for raw wood before stain, we have not done that. 180 is our standard for that.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I think the other benefit of wetting the wood first is that if it has been exposed to water before finishing and you don't do that step you will get uneven stain absorption. I once stained a door that a contractor has in the back of his truck during some rain. Once stained it looked like a leopard skin coat. Apparently if I had wet the whole door before sealing, let dry and then sand and seal as normal , it would have prevented that.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Damon T said:


> Yeah the Benite says sand to 120, apply Benite, sand with 220, stain and finish.
> 
> My Dalys rep suggested wiping all the new wood first with water to pop the grain, then sand when dry, Benite and stain.


don't do with the can says. 120 is too rough. and if you sand too much after benite it's possible to have darker and lighter areas trust me, that sands through the benite. Sand dust or raised grain super lightly w/220 after benite. But wood should be 220'd before, by hand with the grain. I have seen marks from our ets 125 btw with 220 on it. They're not magic.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I have never done the water step to pop the grain first. I have been tempted to try it. We switched to using seal coat usually as a first coat instead.
> 
> When using SealCoat as a pre-stain sealer, I cut it 50%. That does get sanded with pretty fine sandpaper since it does not raise the grain and you do not want to burn through it.
> 
> 320 for raw wood before stain, we have not done that. 180 is our standard for that.


When using seal coat I have found that getting the color right with just a wiping stain was really hard. We used Charles Neals pre conditioner on that job I spoke to you about with the pine. 

Two coats, 320 buff with the grain on the second application of sealer. It eliminated 90% of blotching on pine and still allowed enough absorption of stain that we were on target with the color chart. 

Clients ended up hating the color but it was what they chose and we toned it out. This was my first large scale tone job I had ever done, and it turned out great. I am proud of this one, and will get some pics and share in the next few weeks.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

RO sand the wood with 150 grit, light pressure, just to remove the glaze. Do the rest of your sanding with a hard sanding block, going with the grain, first with 180, then 220. You don't want to go higher than 220 unless its a clear finish, because higher grits tend to polish the wood and thus will not permit a darker stain. 

You will always get swirl marks if you don't finish off with a block sand. 

I'm assuming here that it's new wood. If it's a strip sand and refinish, start half sheet (power) sanding with 80, then 100, switch to a block and sand 120, 150, and then carry on as stated above.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

We ended up toning the doors as well to bring them more in line with the older darkened fir doors. These pics show the back of closet sliders so they won't show. We had applied Benite conditioner yesterday. I tested the door on the right with the stain and didn't like the blotching. So for the door on the left I wiped on paint thinner first, and then the stain, thus slowing the absorption of the stain. I'm sure most of you know this trick, but I though it was worth sharing. The rest of the doors turned out pretty nice, and the Dalys rep did a great job creating a stain to give the doors the same color as the older ones.


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