# Masking tape Vs free hand



## Mr Smith

I've decided that I will experiment with taping all the trim with 1" Frog Tape.

I'm a very accurate free hander and have never taped trim before so this is all about production + quality.

Recently I've been very busy and have had to hire a lot of new painters and I'm disgusted with the quality of the painters available. I always ask them "on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate your skill level?" The last guy considered himself to be an 8.5 and he was total crap in my opinion.{I called his last employer and he said he was a good painter)

To solve this problem I've decided that I will have them tape every door & window frame with Frog Tape. That way they can immediately start to roll the walls on the first coat,cut-in to the masking tape and then do a second coat. They'll still have to cut the ceiling,so a pro skill level is still required. I'm just tired of having to look at their work and then get ticked off at their lack of quality.

I have hired good painters,but most of them eventually want to be on their own. It's tough to find good help.

Has anyone else tried the taping route? How did it go?


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## Joe67

I'm going to hop on this thread and add to the question because I was thinking of asking something rather similar. My basic "training" came working with 3 different paint companies. I never saw a roll of tape anywhere. Tape was scoffed at because its for people who can't paint. It's expensive, time consuming to apply and clean up, and produces crappy looking results. That was the idea, anyway.

But I can't assume that people here who use it don't know what they are doing. I asked about the use of a thin bead of caulk to get a sharp line in another thread. Here I'd ask people about overall job logistics. My own sequence is to prime and then lightly sand everything (walls, trim etc.). Then do the walls and paint walls right onto the trim (tops of baseboards, sides of casings, etc). Then the lines are made with the trim paint. Every company I've worked for did it this way. It works, but you do need to be able to cut those final trim lines (which is where, it seems, Mr. Smith's people are falling short).

So, if you are going to use tape for lines, what's the sequence? Tape off trim, do walls (leaving trim clean), then pull that tape and tape off walls to do trim? Or just do walls not worrying about trim lines and then tape once for trim? Or trim first? ...?


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## PACman

Mr Smith said:


> I've decided that I will experiment with taping all the trim with 1" Frog Tape.
> 
> I'm a very accurate free hander and have never taped trim before so this is all about production + quality.
> 
> Recently I've been very busy and have had to hire a lot of new painters and I'm disgusted with the quality of the painters available. I always ask them "on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate your skill level?" The last guy considered himself to be an 8.5 and he was total crap in my opinion.{I called his last employer and he said he was a good painter)
> 
> To solve this problem I've decided that I will have them tape every door & window frame with Frog Tape. That way they can immediately start to roll the walls on the first coat,cut-in to the masking tape and then do a second coat. They'll still have to cut the ceiling,so a pro skill level is still required. I'm just tired of having to look at their work and then get ticked off at their lack of quality.
> 
> I have hired good painters,but most of them eventually want to be on their own. It's tough to find good help.
> 
> Has anyone else tried the taping route? How did it go?


I hate to say it but with the economy the way it has been the overall quality of "painters" has been in a tailspin. Seems all you have to be able to do is get more Promar 200 on the wall then on yourself and you are an easy "7".


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## Epoxy Pro

Mr Smith said:


> I've decided that I will experiment with taping all the trim with 1" Frog Tape.
> 
> I'm a very accurate free hander and have never taped trim before so this is all about production + quality.
> 
> Recently I've been very busy and have had to hire a lot of new painters and I'm disgusted with the quality of the painters available. I always ask them "on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate your skill level?" The last guy considered himself to be an 8.5 and he was total crap in my opinion.{I called his last employer and he said he was a good painter)
> 
> To solve this problem I've decided that I will have them tape every door & window frame with Frog Tape. That way they can immediately start to roll the walls on the first coat,cut-in to the masking tape and then do a second coat. They'll still have to cut the ceiling,so a pro skill level is still required. I'm just tired of having to look at their work and then get ticked off at their lack of quality.
> 
> I have hired good painters,but most of them eventually want to be on their own. It's tough to find good help.
> 
> Has anyone else tried the taping route? How did it go?


We had a job to paint walls only. The trim was already covered in wall paint, I bought 15 rolls of green frog tape hoping to upsell the lousy trim painting that was done before we got there. Our crew of experienced guys/gals decided on their own not to use any tape and when they cut the walls in they decided to cover the other paint color on the trim. Needless to say we had no choice but to repaint all the trim on our dime. I fired that whole crew for that. It cost us a fortune to fix.

So in other words, if you want your crew to use tape make sure they actually do. Now if we leave a crew alone I pop in 3-5 times a day to make sure, if they aren't using tape I give them a warning. If no tape is used we let them go. Same as you most with so called experience really have none or very little. 

I can be a real d!ck with stuff like this. Listen to how I say it needs to be done, not how you want to do it because taping takes to long.


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## Jmayspaint

Ah, another tape thread. It's about time, seems like we have quite a few new members. This ought to be fun. 

I've told the story of my personal journey to taping here before, so I'll try to spare the details now. Suffice it to say that taping for professional level lines is itself a skill, and not something just any hack can necessarily do right off. Just like cutting in, it takes practice and attention to detail. 

We just finished a 3,300 ft empty condo with crown throughout. Painted everything. 

Here's the sequence we used; 

Mask floors, door glass, hinges, etc. and spray all trim (*except window sash). 

Let dry overnight and mask and paper the top edge of the crown and spray all ceilings. Remove paper from crown before paint is totally dry. 

Mask all baseboards, window and door lines and paint walls. There is no "cutting in" to the tape, we roll right up to it and wipe it out with a brush. This saves a lot of time and improves coating uniformity by eliminating brush marks. 
Pull tape before second coat is completely dry. 

Lines at the bottom of the crown get cut in and window sash painted by hand because for those things, hand painting is faster. Takes too long to mask. 

Random progress pics from that job;

















One room went a little differently. I'll explain in another post. 


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## Allsurface

I did a test many years ago. Two bedrooms same size. I taped one, free handed the other. it took exactly the same time for both rooms. 
The taping took a while, but once done, the cutting was much faster. The ceilings were both freehand. 
There was no frog tape back then, so there was some bleed through. The first cut I was light on the paint to avoid bleed through as much as possible. 
I always freehand, and with new employees I cut the first time, a precise cut. Then they can follow with second and stay a hair away from mine, good practice for them. 
Some tape, some don't. I have discussed this with people and some say if it is taped they can do it themselves, no need for a painter. New employees need to be taught, paid appropriately to give a crap, and given the right brush. 
If you have crews, there needs to be one good painter on each crew, this person can do the detail work, and deal with the customer I your absence. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## futtyos

*When to tape?*



Mr Smith said:


> I've decided that I will experiment with taping all the trim with 1" Frog Tape.
> 
> I'm a very accurate free hander and have never taped trim before so this is all about production + quality.
> 
> Recently I've been very busy and have had to hire a lot of new painters and I'm disgusted with the quality of the painters available. I always ask them "on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate your skill level?" The last guy considered himself to be an 8.5 and he was total crap in my opinion.{I called his last employer and he said he was a good painter)
> 
> To solve this problem I've decided that I will have them tape every door & window frame with Frog Tape. That way they can immediately start to roll the walls on the first coat,cut-in to the masking tape and then do a second coat. They'll still have to cut the ceiling,so a pro skill level is still required. I'm just tired of having to look at their work and then get ticked off at their lack of quality.
> 
> I have hired good painters,but most of them eventually want to be on their own. It's tough to find good help.
> 
> Has anyone else tried the taping route? How did it go?


I work mostly by myself, so a decision to tape or not depends on whether it will be cost effective or if taping will look visually better enough to justify doing it.

If you are trying to control the results of others working for you, taping might not be a bad idea. If you have your crew do it regularly enough, they might become proficient at it to the point where it is cost effective. Might not help them develop their cutting abilities, but it might help you develop a system you can rely on to get the work done to your (and hopefully the client's) satisfaction.

futtyos


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## Jmayspaint

The master bedroom in that condo had a three tiered tray ceiling with crown at each level. After spraying the trim I was looking at it thinking "it's going to take forever to mask all that, maybe I should just hand paint it". Even to just spray the ceiling parts, I would have to mask the top and bottom edges of the crown. Seemed like a lot to do and I had almost convinced myself it would be faster to just cut it in. 

But no, there's no way it would have been. With two coats to go on the ceilings and walls, that would have been a lot of lines to cut. Lot of trips around the room. So I started masking and two and a half hours later it was ready. 


















Sprayed out the ceilings, painted the walls and finished that room myself in a day (while also running crew in the rest of the house). I'm glad I didn't talk myself into cutting all that in. 









I enjoy cutting in myself and understand the pride most painters take in their brush work. At one time, I also scoffed at the idea of using tape to make lines. I've evolved, and learning to use tape effectively has dramatically increased efficiency and profits. 


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## SemiproJohn

That looks great Josh, and helps show why the skilled use of tape is cost effective and beneficial to the overall results we are trying to achieve.


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## PACman

Jmayspaint said:


> The master bedroom in that condo had a three tiered tray ceiling with crown at each level. After spraying the trim I was looking at it thinking "it's going to take forever to mask all that, maybe I should just hand paint it". Even to just spray the ceiling parts, I would have to mask the top and bottom edges of the crown. Seemed like a lot to do and I had almost convinced myself it would be faster to just cut it in.
> 
> But no, there's no way it would have been. With two coats to go on the ceilings and walls, that would have been a lot of lines to cut. Lot of trips around the room. So I started masking and two and a half hours later it was ready.
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> Sprayed out the ceilings, painted the walls and finished that room myself in a day (while also running crew in the rest of the house). I'm glad I didn't talk myself into cutting all that in.
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> I enjoy cutting in myself and understand the pride most painters take in their brush work. At one time, I also scoffed at the idea of using tape to make lines. I've evolved, and learning to use tape effectively has dramatically increased efficiency and profits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like the wall color. Remember what it was?


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## Jmayspaint

PACman said:


> Like the wall color. Remember what it was?




It's BM HC144 and the ceiling is a %25 formula of it. I really liked it too. 


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## CApainter

In terms of best practices, taping is used for spraying and keeping roller splatter off of items not to be painted, but necessarily as a crutch to augment cut in abilities, or lack there of. However, every painter will eventually try to cut in with tape because of a difficult area, or as a means to correct an inside corner.

Besides, without a wavy cut in line here or there, how could you claim a "hand crafted" appearance to your workmanship?


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## RH

You know you are pretty damn good when you can spray installed trim free hand - like me. Oh, and I'm also incredibly modest.


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## fauxlynn

Jmayspaint said:


> It's BM HC144 and the ceiling is a %25 formula of it. I really liked it too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My favorite BM color,Palladian Blue. It's got that blue,green and grey thing going on.


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## ridesarize

Oh man where do I start? Search for the previous thread on this subject. I wrote many paragraphs in order to reason with people about taping trim. Jmays was the person in transition 
Paint trim first then tape. Also get 1.5" it tapes much straighter, you can use it to attach plastic when needed. So instead of buying different colors in different sizes just get blonde and blue 1.5" as cheap as possible. Like miller paint or sw has blue 2090 blue 1.5" for about $3.75 a roll if you buy it on sale or talk to them on pricing. My boss was like many traditional painters who taped very rarely. After a while we switched that 180 degrees. He does it every time it's applicable, including exterior stuff. 
I will never use frog tape again after trying it. The blue 2090 burnished down with a nice putty knife will not bleed, (ok a teensy bit sometimes) but results speak for themselves I can't convince everyone over the web.
I just don't know why some pull masking when paint is wet. I see no need at all. Of course I've done it only when impatient. I move to the next thing to do and pull later.


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## ridesarize

Some pics


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## Jmayspaint

ridesarize said:


> Oh man where do I start? Search for the previous thread on this subject. I wrote many paragraphs in order to reason with people about taping trim. Jmays was the person in transition
> 
> Paint trim first then tape. Also get 1.5" it tapes much straighter, you can use it to attach plastic when needed. So instead of buying different colors in different sizes just get blonde and blue 1.5" as cheap as possible. Like miller paint or sw has blue 2090 blue 1.5" for about $3.75 a roll if you buy it on sale or talk to them on pricing. My boss was like many traditional painters who taped very rarely. After a while we switched that 180 degrees. He does it every time it's applicable, including exterior stuff.
> 
> I will never use frog tape again after trying it. The blue 2090 burnished down with a nice putty knife will not bleed, (ok a teensy bit sometimes) but results speak for themselves I can't convince everyone over the web.
> 
> I just don't know why some pull masking when paint is wet. I see no need at all. Of course I've done it only when impatient. I move to the next thing to do and pull later.




I just read through that old thread, 

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/lets-talk-tape-29647/

It's too bad Ole isn't around anymore to break ba!!s, or Steve to lighten things up. Haven't heard from Gough in a while either. Times change I guess. At least PT is still here and we have some new members. 


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## 007 Dave

I tape the base only. And use green frog tape most of the time, but once in a while it won't stick and then I use the S.W. brand tape which is my second favorite masking. I pull the tape on the second coat when it is still wet. I agree with JMays about masking itself is a learned skill. You can't just run across it with your finger and think it won't bleed. I press the back edge of the tape with a dull pocket knife.
Mr. Smith,I have thought before too what if I just masked everything and rolled it all. Would I be able to do it that way, and would it be worth the extra masking?but never have tried it. If you do let us know how it worked for you.
Frog tape is not cheap. You will obviously go threw more of it if you do it that way.We usually stock up on it at the S.W. pro show. and about a month ago S.W. had it half price of what the contractors everyday price is.
And I understand the frustration of hiring some one who THINKS they can paint and wants the pay of a professional. Just this past spring in an interview with a guy. I asked him what his best painting skill was? He said his best skill was cutting in and never getting paint on the trim. Will no kidding because he stayed about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch from the trim and it was a color change so can you imagine what it looked like. I had to re-cut everywhere he painted. He only lasted 2 days.


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## Joe67

Jmayspaint said:


> I just read through that old thread,
> 
> http://www.painttalk.com/f2/lets-talk-tape-29647/
> 
> It's too bad Ole isn't around anymore to break ba!!s, or Steve to lighten things up. Haven't heard from Gough in a while either. Times change I guess. At least PT is still here and we have some new members.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for that link. Searching for the use of tape is ... well ... like searching for threads where the word "the" appears. I'm going to go read it.

**** 

OK - I did go an read the whole thing and still don't know as I've learned anything. It seems that a lot of people feel compelled to cut every coat? As if its a sin to get wall / ceiling paint onto trim or something? There's only one line that matters, and it's the very last one. So I just roll (or spray) right onto the trim (brushing out any ugly stuff that occurs). The line is made on one trip around the room/or whatever with trim paint. 2nd trim coat is still cutting but you don't have to get it as close or precise in terms of the line.

The point isn't that I NEVER have to use tape for certain things. Its just that I only see it saving time if you think you have to cut a line every single time you go around a room. I cut one line at the end, and its the trim.

The condos with the crazy tiered ceilings might be a thing getting me to do something different, but my first instinct would have been to spray ceilings and then walls without any regard for overspray onto trim and then just brush out the crown. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm asking and commenting because the next time I'm on an appropriate job I may give it all a whirl just to see. As noted above, I am subjecting my own MO to question.


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## Vylum

only base and the top of crown. i dont like frog tape on base, it bends a little too much when i tact a piece and put pressure on the tact to adjust my body to move down the wall it will curve out. i like the cheap green painters tape, never have bleeding issues



Joe67 said:


> ****
> 
> OK - I did go an read the whole thing and still don't know as I've learned anything. It seems that a lot of people feel compelled to cut every coat? As if its a sin to get wall / ceiling paint onto trim or something? There's only one line that matters, and it's the very last one. So I just roll (or spray) right onto the trim (brushing out any ugly stuff that occurs). The line is made on one trip around the room/or whatever with trim paint. 2nd trim coat is still cutting but you don't have to get it as close or precise in terms of the line.
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm asking and commenting because the next time I'm on an appropriate job I may give it all a whirl just to see. As noted above, I am subjecting my own MO to question.


i can do that but to me thats just a bad way to spend a day, cutting trim into finished work is way too detailed for the results you are going to get. also hitting trim with dark wall paint it might take more than two coats to cover top of trim, i dont care who you are cutting trim a few times into a finished wall isnt going to look that nice comparatively speaking


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## lilpaintchic

We hit the lid and trim, tape the trim with pg5 blue (best stuff on earth imo)run that tight with the trim paint, cut the lid,cut the walls in as needed and roll. Unwrap, done. It takes about the same amount of time to bag it than it does to carefully cut and tape makes transitions tighter. Especially helpful when doing 2 coats (which is almost always). The customer expects this level of professionalism.and pays for it. It's easier to figure out production rates and materials also. I just dont think it looks as good to trim it last whether it's cut n roll or not.

Also,I always put the new guys on masking. It's an incredibly easy way of seeing what their level of skill and aptitudes are. if they lack the patience and eye for detail and the ability to be thorough with a roll of tape, they don't get to have a brush...too much liability. Just watch a guy masking and you'll understand the importance...a painter of the caliber that we require will do very well in initial trials as it takes a very specific personality type. The ones that get easily frustrated with it are usually either production guys (valuable in the right setting) or worthless imo and I just move em on. I found a great guy this summer who had LOADS of potential. I hated to let him go, but didn't have the ability to train him properly and couldn't afford to have my lead babysit...it's a bummer...great employee. He lied though. Said he was a painter with like 5 yrs of experience. Hired him. Gave him a hand masker, and he had absolutely NO idea how to load it....he didn't get to paint.oh wait, I did let him paint a couple of hand rails...lol.He got to be a laborer till I found a better fit. Anyway. Pg5 yellow and blue 1.5" tape (blue on all interiors and a lot of exterior stuff also) home depot has started carrying the yellow...sw has or can get the blue. I buy em by the case. Customers pay 8-9 bucks or so a roll and I pay almost 5. It's all billed to the job, the ho pays for it so give em what they want! Not what's "easy" which rarely is...


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## Vylum

taping the side of frames is over kill imo. id probably lose my cuts after taping everything and id get sick of buying tape. plus cutting down a nice fresh frame is a glorious part of the artform, your losing something taping sides


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## ridesarize

I don't know about some of these young painters out there, but getting wall or ceiling paint on your trim even though it still needs to be painted is a no no. Trim needs to look sweet so unless you were able to barely get a mist on the trim it will show. 
If I'm doing new construction, the millwork would be pre-primed mdf, or maybe primed pine(rare). I would sand that factory primer as part of prep work so I wouldn't want paint spray, build up, brushed out overspray or spits, etc on it. It has to look sweet, anything less is not sensible.

Edit - I would overspray many surfaces that I have to paint still but not interior trim.


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## SemiproJohn

ridesarize said:


> I don't know about some of these young painters out there, but getting wall or ceiling paint on your trim even though it still needs to be painted is a no no. Trim needs to look sweet so unless you were able to barely get a mist on the trim it will show.
> If I'm doing new construction, the millwork would be pre-primed mdf, or maybe primed pine(rare). I would sand that factory primer as part of prep work so I wouldn't want paint spray, build up, brushed out overspray or spits, etc on it. It has to look sweet, anything less is not sensible.


Although I don't do any new construction, I agree with your points. I'm basically doing residential repaints, and I always try and keep paint off surfaces not taking that paint. Off the top of my head, the only exception would be ceiling paint, as it is usually dead flat, and getting some on the top of the walls doesn't ever seem to be an issue after painting the walls. I no longer allow trim paint (usually a white semi gloss) to get on walls, as I found the sheen to shine through the wall cut ins (the wall paint anywhere from flat to satin). I remember having to cut in those areas 3 times, depending upon the color of wall paint.

I just don't see any build-up of paint where it isn't intended to be a "best" practice.


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## ridesarize

SemiproJohn said:


> Although I don't do any new construction, I agree with your points. I'm basically doing residential repaints, and I always try and keep paint off surfaces not taking that paint. Off the top of my head, the only exception would be ceiling paint, as it is usually dead flat, and getting some on the top of the walls doesn't ever seem to be an issue after painting the walls. I no longer allow trim paint (usually a white semi gloss) to get on walls, as I found the sheen to shine through the wall cut ins (the wall paint anywhere from flat to satin). I remember having to cut in those areas 3 times, depending upon the color of wall paint.
> 
> I just don't see any build-up of paint where it isn't intended to be a "best" practice.


Hi John I hear ya on covering that overspray shine around the trim. I was gonna ask, do you scuff sand that overspray? It helps wall paint to cover. Also once in a while we'll hit that with a mini roll primer, since we backmask the trim it's quick. 
I hesitate to overspray the walls too on these nice homes so I just try to feather it (or not make hard lines).


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## SemiproJohn

ridesarize said:


> Hi John I hear ya on covering that overspray shine around the trim. I was gonna ask, do you scuff sand that overspray? It helps wall paint to cover. Also once in a while we'll hit that with a mini roll primer, since we backmask the trim it's quick.
> I hesitate to overspray the walls too on these nice homes so I just try to feather it (or not make hard lines).


I did not scuff sand as those particular walls had a heavy knockdown texture. All I remember is having to cut above the base an extra time to hide the sheen from the overspray. The only good news was that I had taped the top of the base and sealed it with clear caulk, so the cut ins went fast.


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## Jmayspaint

Vylum said:


> taping the side of frames is over kill imo. id probably lose my cuts after taping everything and id get sick of buying tape. plus cutting down a nice fresh frame is a glorious part of the artform, your losing something taping sides




This post seems to get to the heart of why some in the trade (myself included at times) are so resistant to higher production techniques that remove the necessity of cutting in, or other trade skills. 

It does feel glorious to strike a sweet line with the perfect brush. The brush is the staple tool of our trade right? Before that stupid roller was invented, we got to brush everything. Took true skill, not just up and down with some fancy roller. Worse yet spraying. Takes all the fun out of it. 

I kinda see the painters infatuation with the brush as analogous to a carpenter and their hammer. The ability to use a hammer is critical to the carpentry trade. But in modern times, hammer use must be relegated to necessity only. People don't frame up or trim out houses with hammers anymore, aside from some specialty work, they use nail guns. That's what makes money and it works just as well or better for most tasks. Doesn't require the fineness of hammer work perhaps, but that's irrelevant. 

I don't claim to be able to out produce any pro brush man with my mini roller/tape shenanigans. (Ole's super fast brushed door vid comes to mind), but after some practice I can most definitely out produce my own, and anybody's I work with, with them. By a pretty long shot actually. And that's all that matters to the bottom line. 

I'm proud of my trade skills, but thinking 'outside the brush' has been the greatest boon to my career yet.


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## lilpaintchic

I see your point about build and it can be problematic (on the walls) if the wrong size tip is used and ya have 8"of overspray...I use a 211 or 311on trim, 413 on doors usually...maybe switch it to FF depending on the project. We do loads of repaints and remodels...and my tips are constantly disappearing though each pump should have a bag with tips, gaurds, wrenches and a repair kit on it. The crescent wrenches and FF tips always go missing. I spray my wrenches hot pink to keep them easily identify able bit alas, they eventually end up in the abyss...so I tend to stick with the rac5 cuz they're cheaper and buy a new FF if the job requires it (cabinets or???)


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## SemiproJohn

Jmayspaint said:


> This post seems to get to the heart of why some in the trade (myself included at times) are so resistant to higher production techniques that remove the necessity of cutting in, or other trade skills.
> 
> *It does feel glorious to strike a sweet line with the perfect brush. The brush is the staple tool of our trade right? Before that stupid roller was invented, we got to brush everything. Took true skill, not just up and down with some fancy roller. Worse yet spraying. Takes all the fun out of it. *
> 
> I kinda see the painters infatuation with the brush as analogous to a carpenter and their hammer. The ability to use a hammer is critical to the carpentry trade. But in modern times, hammer use must be relegated to necessity only. People don't frame up or trim out houses with hammers anymore, aside from some specialty work, they use nail guns. That's what makes money and it works just as well or better for most tasks. Doesn't require the fineness of hammer work perhaps, but that's irrelevant.
> 
> I don't claim to be able to out produce any pro brush man with my mini roller/tape shenanigans. (Ole's super fast brushed door vid comes to mind), but after some practice I can most definitely out produce my own, and anybody's I work with, with them. By a pretty long shot actually. And that's all that matters to the bottom line.
> 
> I'm proud of my trade skills, but thinking 'outside the brush' has been the greatest boon to my career yet.


This kind of reminds me of work Friday. I was trying to finish up an exterior trim repaint (everything else was brick). I'm on a 12 foot ladder brushing Hardie siding on a gable that has a circular window with wood trim around its perimeter and three radius pieces. There is barely room for the ladder as its close to the swimming pool, so I had to turn the ladder sideways to accommodate the space. Anyway, I was using a 2 1/2 inch brush, small enough to paint the trim and large enough (well, not really) to paint the siding without having to change brushes. I had to dodge the black pool aluminum framing in some places, the window, and manipulate those quite small, almost triangular pieces of siding that die off as you work down the gable at each end (these triangles were created by some of the aluminum framing). All the while, not falling off the ladder or dropping the cut bucket. 

It felt good to not make any mess and to have control over that brush in that work situation. I felt like a craftsman, not a paint applicator. Now, Monday I have to go through it again for the 2nd coat (just the siding...I managed to two coat the window trim).


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## Vylum

Jmayspaint said:


> This post seems to get to the heart of why some in the trade (myself included at times) are so resistant to higher production techniques that remove the necessity of cutting in, or other trade skills.
> 
> It does feel glorious to strike a sweet line with the perfect brush. The brush is the staple tool of our trade right? Before that stupid roller was invented, we got to brush everything. Took true skill, not just up and down with some fancy roller. Worse yet spraying. Takes all the fun out of it.
> 
> I kinda see the painters infatuation with the brush as analogous to a carpenter and their hammer. The ability to use a hammer is critical to the carpentry trade. But in modern times, hammer use must be relegated to necessity only. People don't frame up or trim out houses with hammers anymore, aside from some specialty work, they use nail guns. That's what makes money and it works just as well or better for most tasks. Doesn't require the fineness of hammer work perhaps, but that's irrelevant.
> 
> I don't claim to be able to out produce any pro brush man with my mini roller/tape shenanigans. (Ole's super fast brushed door vid comes to mind), but after some practice I can most definitely out produce my own, and anybody's I work with, with them. By a pretty long shot actually. And that's all that matters to the bottom line.
> 
> I'm proud of my trade skills, but thinking 'outside the brush' has been the greatest boon to my career yet.


whatever helps you sleep i guess


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## DreyCo

SemiproJohn said:


> Although I don't do any new construction, I agree with your points. I'm basically doing residential repaints, and I always try and keep paint off surfaces not taking that paint. Off the top of my head, the only exception would be ceiling paint, as it is usually dead flat, and getting some on the top of the walls doesn't ever seem to be an issue after painting the walls. I no longer allow trim paint (usually a white semi gloss) to get on walls, as I found the sheen to shine through the wall cut ins (the wall paint anywhere from flat to satin). I remember having to cut in those areas 3 times, depending upon the color of wall paint.
> 
> I just don't see any build-up of paint where it isn't intended to be a "best" practice.


I agree I only apply paint where its meant to be, it looks better and builds the customers confidence in your ability I manly do repaints in OO's and perception is everything. As far as brush or tape, I think there is no one way, just circumstances that dictate the application required to achieve the best results. So there is really more then one way to skin a cat :thumbup:


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## Jmayspaint

Joe67 said:


> Thanks for that link. Searching for the use of tape is ... well ... like searching for threads where the word "the" appears. I'm going to go read it.
> 
> ****
> 
> OK - I did go an read the whole thing and still don't know as I've learned anything. It seems that a lot of people feel compelled to cut every coat? As if its a sin to get wall / ceiling paint onto trim or something? There's only one line that matters, and it's the very last one. So I just roll (or spray) right onto the trim (brushing out any ugly stuff that occurs). The line is made on one trip around the room/or whatever with trim paint. 2nd trim coat is still cutting but you don't have to get it as close or precise in terms of the line.
> 
> The point isn't that I NEVER have to use tape for certain things. Its just that I only see it saving time if you think you have to cut a line every single time you go around a room. I cut one line at the end, and its the trim.
> 
> The condos with the crazy tiered ceilings might be a thing getting me to do something different, but my first instinct would have been to spray ceilings and then walls without any regard for overspray onto trim and then just brush out the crown.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm asking and commenting because the next time I'm on an appropriate job I may give it all a whirl just to see. As noted above, I am subjecting my own MO to question.




I've known a couple guys over the years that paint trim last. My understanding was that technique was a hold over from the days of oil trim paint. When water based paints first became popular for walls, it was kind of a big deal not to get trim paint on the walls (the early latex wouldn't stick to it, and often fish eyed and had other problems) so trim was done last. 

I generally do it just the opposite and don't try to keep trim paint off the walls, cutting or taping the final line with the wall paint. 

Outside of special circumstances, like oil trim paint, I'm not in the camp of cutting in every line. Seems superfluous to me as well. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Joe67

It's been a useful discussion for me and thanks to all. I'm sure I'm not old enough to have been painting during the old oil trim days. But that doesn't mean that the guys I learned from weren't. So I don't know. I'm also not a "young painter" out there, but after having gotten wall and/or ceiling paint onto trim my woodwork still looks "sweet." That's actually to goal. You do have to pay attention not to leave any ugly stuff (globs, drips, etc) but I've never seen a couple/few wet mils of wall paint show anything on a double-coat of trim paint. Leaving the trim to last, just seems a terribly efficient way to leave a whole job, including the trim, looking sweet.

My biggest downer is that lilpaintchic would relegate me to laborer and then get rid of me for not knowing how to load a hand masker. 

In any case, none of the above is meant to be argumentative either. My purpose in being in the thread is not to "defend my way." But to expand what/how I do things in productive ways. So the next time I am on an appropriately styled job I just might shake things up. Of relevance is that the kinds of jobs I am doing right now are all over the map and these questions are frequently not relevant. Large interior jobs, for example, are once in a blue moon. My most recent interior job was two tiny remodeled bathrooms. I think there was a total of about 10' of base, 2 doors and one window. I'll probably never tape something like that. But the next time I'm on something appropriate I'll try some new things.


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## lilpaintchic

Joe67 said:


> It's been a useful discussion for me and thanks to all. I'm sure I'm not old enough to have been painting during the old oil trim days. But that doesn't mean that the guys I learned from weren't. So I don't know. I'm also not a "young painter" out there, but after having gotten wall and/or ceiling paint onto trim my woodwork still looks "sweet." That's actually to goal. You do have to pay attention not to leave any ugly stuff (globs, drips, etc) but I've never seen a couple/few wet mils of wall paint show anything on a double-coat of trim paint. Leaving the trim to last, just seems a terribly efficient way to leave a whole job, including the trim, looking sweet.
> 
> My biggest downer is that lilpaintchic would relegate me to laborer and then get rid of me for not knowing how to load a hand masker.
> 
> In any case, none of the above is meant to be argumentative either. My purpose in being in the thread is not to "defend my way." But to expand what/how I do things in productive ways. So the next time I am on an appropriately styled job I just might shake things up. Of relevance is that the kinds of jobs I am doing right now are all over the map and these questions are frequently not relevant. Large interior jobs, for example, are once in a blue moon. My most recent interior job was two tiny remodeled bathrooms. I think there was a total of about 10' of base, 2 doors and one window. I'll probably never tape something like that. But the next time I'm on something appropriate I'll try some new things.


That probably came across the wrong way...I'm not heartless. (Not entirely anyway...lol). I'll explain. That example was a "tell" for a new employee. He lied. Said he had been a professional painter for 5 years. That was a requirement for employment (3-5 years of experience). I don't hire inexperienced painters (except for the kid ,17, that was hired specifically for summer labor--NEVER AGAIN!)as we're too small a company and an experienced painter at a higher wage is more cost effective and productive than a $12-14 newb. We pay living wages based on skill and have a high standard for our company and high expectations of professionalism from our customers. He was hired at $17/hr based on experience and the expectation that comes with it. 
At 5 yrs, a painter knows enough to be productive with instruction, can meet daily goals and doesn't need a babysitter. Just a bit of direction. He(or she)is teachable and has an idea of what the finished product will look like and should have a good handle on the basics (doesn't need to be told to remove all switch plates and knows how to use basic hand tools--like a hand masker.) Has a good feel for the process and can forecast some of the next steps. This guy was lost. Maybe he painted a fence or ?? Once. 
At any rate, a general laborer position is very valuable. In this position an inexperienced person can learn the value of accuracy. If the tape is accurate, there's no cleaning up glass or ??? It's a first step toward accuracy in painting. It all matters. And a lead will double check during and prior to spraying correcting as needed and a laborer will be cleaning up any mess. Nobody likes cleaning up. They learn quickly how to avoid it.they also learn how to "fix" a mess. Also, VERY important as messes are inevitable and proper clean up is essential. That's a good mind set as a painter. A good starting point in training. It's not so much a "put down" to put a guy in the right position to acquire the skills needed for proficiency and profit. It's wisdom. Had he told me from the onset that he was applying for that position (which was available at $12-14/hr) things may have been different. There was a few other things that factored in also but it was a learning experience for me as well. No english, no job. No skill, no job. I was desperate and he was a warm body. Not doing that again....only experienced. Training from the ground up is too expensive.
Yes. I still "feel" bad cuz I liked the guy and he had GREAT character and ethic. But--it was a business decision not a personal one.


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## CApainter

I've been painting since the seventies, and to this day, still feel like I lack in expertise. Whether it has to do with speed and efficiency of application, equipment knowledge, estimating, paint chemistry, etc. But, I've managed to earn a decent living over all of these years, and have prepared for an inevitable retirement one day.

And in all honesty, I don't think skill, in this industry, had as much to do with it as me being reliable, careful, and humble enough to accept direction in the interest of an honest goal. I also think my sustainability in this trade, had a lot to do with leaders who understood falability, and the ability for people to develop if given the chance.

I was very fortunate in that way.


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## Epoxy Pro

If we are painting without spraying, ceiling, walls and trim only the last coat on walls will we tape trim. If only walls we always tape.

Our current job we are doing walls first then trim. It's because of the cluster#uc& of a GC.
Missing baseboards in random places in every room, trim not hung yet. Plus home owners moving in this weekend and this week. We had to blast walls out first.

Next time it's being done our way or we wont take the job.


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## Mr Smith

lilpaintchic said:


> That probably came across the wrong way...I'm not heartless. (Not entirely anyway...lol). I'll explain. That example was a "tell" for a new employee. He lied. Said he had been a professional painter for 5 years. That was a requirement for employment (3-5 years of experience). I don't hire inexperienced painters (except for the kid ,17, that was hired specifically for summer labor--NEVER AGAIN!)as we're too small a company and an experienced painter at a higher wage is more cost effective and productive than a $12-14 newb. We pay living wages based on skill and have a high standard for our company and high expectations of professionalism from our customers. He was hired at $17/hr based on experience and the expectation that comes with it.
> At 5 yrs, a painter knows enough to be productive with instruction, can meet daily goals and doesn't need a babysitter. Just a bit of direction. He(or she)is teachable and has an idea of what the finished product will look like and should have a good handle on the basics (doesn't need to be told to remove all switch plates and knows how to use basic hand tools--like a hand masker.) Has a good feel for the process and can forecast some of the next steps. This guy was lost. Maybe he painted a fence or ?? Once.
> At any rate, a general laborer position is very valuable. In this position an inexperienced person can learn the value of accuracy. If the tape is accurate, there's no cleaning up glass or ??? It's a first step toward accuracy in painting. It all matters. And a lead will double check during and prior to spraying correcting as needed and a laborer will be cleaning up any mess. Nobody likes cleaning up. They learn quickly how to avoid it.they also learn how to "fix" a mess. Also, VERY important as messes are inevitable and proper clean up is essential. That's a good mind set as a painter. A good starting point in training. It's not so much a "put down" to put a guy in the right position to acquire the skills needed for proficiency and profit. It's wisdom. Had he told me from the onset that he was applying for that position (which was available at $12-14/hr) things may have been different. There was a few other things that factored in also but it was a learning experience for me as well. No english, no job. No skill, no job. I was desperate and he was a warm body. Not doing that again....only experienced. Training from the ground up is too expensive.
> Yes. I still "feel" bad cuz I liked the guy and he had GREAT character and ethic. But--it was a business decision not a personal one.


Another "tell" is when the guy who said he was an 8.5/10 (with 6 years experience) went to lunch and left the GD paint tray and roller UNCOVERED...Even the 53 year old I hired with 16 years experience left the damn tray and roller uncovered...I just shake my head at the unprofessionalism ...The older guy was a decent painter but I have to be the "bad guy" and point out all of their mistakes. Leaving a tray open and uncovered for an hour is intolerable. If the older guy does it again he is gone. I'm trying to get a couple of crews together so I can get out of the bucket but it looks like a long process to find quality painters who don't need to be baby sat.

Most likely he will quit before getting fired because painters are too proud and independent. They show up in a crappy rusty vehicle and are struggling because of PRIDE. They'd rather starve than be told what to do. I wouldn't have to if they were true professionals.

My next job is a complete interior, including trim ,walls, & doors that need to be sprayed...I'm going to hire 4-5 laborers (for a day) to lay down plastic on the carpet and floor and to wrap everything up before we paint... I agree that it's a good idea to have preppers and laborers on your speed dial. Painters are a pain in the azz to work with.


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## lilpaintchic

CApainter said:


> I've been painting since the seventies, and to this day, still feel like I lack in expertise. Whether it has to do with speed and efficiency of application, equipment knowledge, estimating, paint chemistry, etc. But, I've managed to earn a decent living over all of these years, and have prepared for an inevitable retirement one day.
> 
> And in all honesty, I don't think skill, in this industry, had as much to do with it as me being reliable, careful, and humble enough to accept direction in the interest of an honest goal. I also think my sustainability in this trade, had a lot to do with leaders who understood falability, and the ability for people to develop if given the chance.
> 
> I was very fortunate in that way.


I feel ya. I wish we were big enough to be a bit more flexible. Right now, we're not. The way to get bigger is to hire the right guys who can generate productivity and profitibility...otherwise we'll never grow, and I'll be stuck on a ladder forever. I'M OVER IT!


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## chrisn

lilpaintchic said:


> We hit the lid and trim, tape the trim with pg5 blue (best stuff on earth imo)run that tight with the trim paint, cut the lid,cut the walls in as needed and roll. Unwrap, done. It takes about the same amount of time to bag it than it does to carefully cut and tape makes transitions tighter. Especially helpful when doing 2 coats (which is almost always). The customer expects this level of professionalism.and pays for it. It's easier to figure out production rates and materials also. I just dont think it looks as good to trim it last whether it's cut n roll or not.
> 
> Also,I always put the new guys on masking. It's an incredibly easy way of seeing what their level of skill and aptitudes are. if they lack the patience and eye for detail and the ability to be thorough with a roll of tape, they don't get to have a brush...too much liability. Just watch a guy masking and you'll understand the importance...a painter of the caliber that we require will do very well in initial trials as it takes a very specific personality type. The ones that get easily frustrated with it are usually either production guys (valuable in the right setting) or worthless imo and I just move em on. I found a great guy this summer who had LOADS of potential. I hated to let him go, but didn't have the ability to train him properly and couldn't afford to have my lead babysit...it's a bummer...great employee. He lied though. Said he was a painter with like 5 yrs of experience. Hired him. Gave him a hand masker, and he had absolutely NO idea how to load it....he didn't get to paint.oh wait, I did let him paint a couple of hand rails...lol.He got to be a laborer till I found a better fit. Anyway. Pg5 yellow and blue 1.5" tape (blue on all interiors and a lot of exterior stuff also) home depot has started carrying the yellow...sw has or can get the blue. I buy em by the case. Customers pay 8-9 bucks or so a roll and I pay almost 5. It's all billed to the job, the ho pays for it so give em what they want! Not what's "easy" which rarely is...


You mean this stuff?

and it's better than 3M?

BTW,I would have no idea how to load a hand masker either:blink:


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## ridesarize

Mr Smith said:


> Another "tell" is when the guy who said he was an 8.5/10 (with 6 years experience) went to lunch and left the GD paint tray and roller UNCOVERED...Even the 53 year old I hired with 16 years experience left the damn tray and roller uncovered...I just shake my head at the unprofessionalism ...The older guy was a decent painter but I have to be the "bad guy" and point out all of their mistakes. Leaving a tray open and uncovered for an hour is intolerable. If the older guy does it again he is gone. I'm trying to get a couple of crews together so I can get out of the bucket but it looks like a long process to find quality painters who don't need to be baby sat.
> 
> Most likely he will quit before getting fired because painters are too proud and independent. They show up in a crappy rusty vehicle and are struggling because of PRIDE. They'd rather starve than be told what to do. I wouldn't have to if they were true professionals.
> 
> My next job is a complete interior, including trim ,walls, & doors that need to be sprayed...I'm going to hire 4-5 laborers (for a day) to lay down plastic on the carpet and floor and to wrap everything up before we paint... I agree that it's a good idea to have preppers and laborers on your speed dial. Painters are a pain in the azz to work with.


Damn that sounds damn harsh that you would fire a good painter for a silly misstep that probably didn't hurt a thing. Also if my boss hired 4-5 inexperienced temp guys to PLASTIC carpets I would laugh so hard I don't know what would happen.
Just be like "hey guys, let's cover our paint trays up" and keep doing good work all year long. There's TONS of stuff that can wrong in painting, just improve and keep going.


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## lilpaintchic

The schnizzle in taping imo...it does a great job by itself but we still dry brush the edge with trim paint for insurance.It comes in single rolls by the case (weird)vs sleeve.
I do believe that pic is the one (yellow tape) I'm referring to, I've only bought it by the sleeve though and the packaging on a single roll looks weird to me. It is pg5 though so...nice, stiff, fairly thick easy to work with and crisp lines. Great for next day removal and fairly hard to stick surfaces. The blue is also easy to work with, no residue, crisp lines...like 2090 (cant remember if that's the right number anymore??) But a little stiffer and less expensive and does block.

And OMG! Do we need a hand masking 101 tutorial!?!?!


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## RH

I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose what to some may sound like blasphemy, and that is, IMO most HO's wouldn't see, recognize, or appreciate the kind of "crisp" lines the pro-taping everything advocates are describing. Because of that, I have to think that anyone who can do a good to great job of free handing will end up with a quality job that all but the most anal customer would find pleasing. 

I've been doing this for a heck of a long time and have never had anyone - ever - criticize my cut lines. In fact, the general reaction, as I'm sure most of your have experienced, is customer appreciation for my ability to freehand cut lines. Not bragging, just observing that a pro's average work is likely to be levels above what the typical HO can do.

Not to say that there aren't some instances where taping is a necessity, of course there are. But for cutting in around casings and cabinetry, or along baseboards, the time and added expense of taping just wouldn't make sense to me in about 98% of the edging situations I encounter.


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## lilpaintchic

It really comes down to the price of the job. A real estate flip, just paint it freehand. A Microsoft big wig, gets lots and lots of tape....make that line tighter than a frogs butt.


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## SemiproJohn

RH said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose what to some may sound like blasphemy, and that is, IMO most HO's wouldn't see, recognize, or appreciate the kind of "crisp" lines the pro-taping everything advocates are describing. Because of that, I have to think that anyone who can do a good to great job of free handing will end up with a quality job that all but the most anal customer would find pleasing.
> 
> I've been doing this for a heck of a long time and have never had anyone - ever - criticize my cut lines. In fact, the general reaction, as I'm sure most of your have experienced, is customer appreciation for my ability to freehand cut lines. Not bragging, just observing that a pro's average work is likely to be levels above what the typical HO can do.
> 
> Not to say that there aren't some instances where taping is a necessity, of course there are. But for cutting in around casings and cabinetry, or along baseboards, the time and added expense of taping just wouldn't make sense to me in about 98% of the edging situations I encounter.


Old School! :yes: :notworthy:

At least you acknowledge there do exist some situations where taping would make sense...even if they amount to about 2%. :jester: 

I think I'm fairly accomplished with a brush, and with either hand, yet, certain tasks compel me to break out the tape (usually yellow frog tape). For example, when just repainting trim, the tops of certain baseboards are a pain to free hand without getting paint on the wall, which I just abhor for some reason. So I frequently, but certainly not always, tape above the base and seal with clear caulk or, depending upon the tape, damp rag it to seal it. I don't really think it takes much longer and it ensures success.


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## lilpaintchic

As much as I dislike the "who", the "what" may be useful to some...


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## RH

SemiproJohn said:


> Old School! :yes: :notworthy:
> 
> At least you acknowledge there do exist some situations where taping would make sense...even if they amount to about 2%. :jester:
> 
> I think I'm fairly accomplished with a brush, and with either hand, yet, certain tasks compel me to break out the tape (usually yellow frog tape). For example, when just repainting trim, the tops of certain baseboards are a pain to free hand without getting paint on the wall, which I just abhor for some reason. So I frequently, but certainly not always, tape above the base and seal with clear caulk or, depending upon the tape, damp rag it to seal it. I don't really think it takes much longer and it ensures success.


Not sure I consider myself old school so much as just what can I do well and when do I need the assistance of tape. Typically, we tape off baseboard tops to avoid splatter and bull nosed edges where a color change is needed - "typically".
But as far as most cutting in or edging, just don't see the need. Maybe it's the fact that the majority of our surfaces are textured so using tape can be an exercise in futility. But usually, as I said, the vast majority of my customers (and they are probably above average when it comes to pickiness - lots of professional people like doctors, college profs, engineers, etc.) just can't detect taped lines versus good hand done edging to the point that it makes a difference.


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## lilpaintchic

RH said:


> Not sure I consider myself old school so much as just what can I do well and when do I need the assistance of tape. Typically, we tape off baseboard tops to avoid splatter and bull nosed edges where a color change is needed - "typically".
> But as far as most cutting in or edging, just don't see the need. Maybe it's the fact that the majority of our surfaces are textured so using tape can be an exercise in futility. But usually, as I said, the vast majority of my customers (and they are probably above average when it comes to pickiness - lots of professional people like doctors, college profs, engineers, etc.) just can't detect taped lines versus good hand done edging to the point that it makes a difference.


Ahhh texture, sweet texture. That was a heck of a transition for me coming from the portland area...I forgot. Commercial is the only smooth wall stuff there.so freehand is the way to go on most everything. Here, everything is smooth. :/


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## Mr Smith

ridesarize said:


> Damn that sounds damn harsh that you would fire a good painter for a silly misstep that probably didn't hurt a thing. Also if my boss hired 4-5 inexperienced temp guys to PLASTIC carpets I would laugh so hard I don't know what would happen.
> Just be like "hey guys, let's cover our paint trays up" and keep doing good work all year long. There's TONS of stuff that can wrong in painting, just improve and keep going.


You've obviously missed my point. The poster was talking about "tells". If you are a poker player you would understand what that means. It's not just about leaving a full paint tray exposed to dry for an hour-------That's just the tip of the iceberg. The more I see of these painters the more they expose themselves as incompetent. The idea of a thread and discussion is to understand what was said previously. Then it all makes sense.

I've never in my life left for lunch with my paint tray exposed to the elements. Those dudes did it on the first day working with me and they had lunch at different times.

Yes, if they do it again they are fired. Harsh? I don't think so.


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## Joe67

I guess, along the lines (pun intended) of what RH is saying, I've just been wondering where all of my unhappy customers are. There's no "hmmmm...that looks ok. Thanks" - or worse. Its more like "wow! - that looks great!" and then more and more phone calls to the GC looking for painting work.

Would it be even better and more efficient if the tape route was taken? Well, that might just depend on the job. But I just might try to find out sometime soon.


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## Mr Smith

RH said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose what to some may sound like blasphemy, and that is, IMO most HO's wouldn't see, recognize, or appreciate the kind of "crisp" lines the pro-taping everything advocates are describing. Because of that, I have to think that anyone who can do a good to great job of free handing will end up with a quality job that all but the most anal customer would find pleasing.
> 
> I've been doing this for a heck of a long time and have never had anyone - ever - criticize my cut lines. In fact, the general reaction, as I'm sure most of your have experienced, is customer appreciation for my ability to freehand cut lines. Not bragging, just observing that a pro's average work is likely to be levels above what the typical HO can do.
> 
> Not to say that there aren't some instances where taping is a necessity, of course there are. But for cutting in around casings and cabinetry, or along baseboards, the time and added expense of taping just wouldn't make sense to me in about 98% of the edging situations I encounter.


Now you are trying to justify poor cut lines...The point of the thread was not about the craftsmanship of quality painters but rather the quality of the vast majority of painters. Congrats on being a good cutter.... In case you haven't noticed,the market isn't overflowing with good painters. Using tape will allow a a 5/10 painter to cut like a 10/10 painter. if you don't see the value in that then I don't know what to say.

Homeowners DO notice paint on the trim work. Maybe not right away,but they notice it eventually.


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## lilpaintchic

Exactly. "Tells" about mindsets, thoroughness and overall attitudes. I don't want guys to be or think lazy. Wrapping pots, brushes. Etc is a simple task.if they neglect the little things, they'll neglect the big things. A warning/reminder about expectations sets a mindset and standard. Of professionalism. And yes, tape should really be used in most cases as a guide, not an excuse for poor attention to detail or sloppy work. It all matters. Why is that so hard for so many to understand?


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## Mr Smith

Mr Smith said:


> You've obviously missed my point. The poster was talking about "tells". If you are a poker player you would understand what that means. It's not just about leaving a full paint tray exposed to dry for an hour-------That's just the tip of the iceberg. The more I see of these painters the more they expose themselves as incompetent. The idea of a thread and discussion is to understand what was said previously. Then it all makes sense.
> 
> I've never in my life left for lunch with my paint tray exposed to the elements. Those dudes did it on the first day working with me and they had lunch at different times.
> 
> Yes, if they do it again they are fired. Harsh? I don't think so.


What's so "funny" about that?

If you are on a deadline, and people are waiting to move in, I don't see any problem hiring laborers to help wrap a three story condo. It's not rocket science,and many of these temp workers are unemployed carpenters,electricians,plumbers,contractors etc...I'm sure they can handle cutting and taping plastic to the floors,etc.

My city has a local facebook group for cash jobs. Its easy to find people who are in need of work. It's a win-win

I really don't understand the sarcasm in here from some of you guys. WTF with the attitude?


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## Mr Smith

ridesarize said:


> Damn that sounds damn harsh that you would fire a good painter for a silly misstep that probably didn't hurt a thing. *Also if my boss hired 4-5 inexperienced temp guys to PLASTIC carpets I would laugh so hard I don't know what would happen.*
> Just be like "hey guys, let's cover our paint trays up" and keep doing good work all year long. There's TONS of stuff that can wrong in painting, just improve and keep going.


What's so "funny" about that?

If you are on a deadline, and people are waiting to move in, I don't see any problem hiring laborers to help wrap a three story condo. It's not rocket science,and many of these temp workers are unemployed carpenters,electricians,plumbers,contractors etc...I'm sure they can handle cutting and taping plastic to the floors,etc.

My city has a local facebook group for cash jobs. Its easy to find people who are in need of work. It's a win-win

I really don't understand the sarcasm in here from some of you folks. WTF with the attitude?


----------



## ridesarize

Mr Smith said:


> You've obviously missed my point. The poster was talking about "tells". If you are a poker player you would understand what that means. It's not just about leaving a full paint tray exposed to dry for an hour-------That's just the tip of the iceberg. The more I see of these painters the more they expose themselves as incompetent. The idea of a thread and discussion is to understand what was said previously. Then it all makes sense.
> 
> I've never in my life left for lunch with my paint tray exposed to the elements. Those dudes did it on the first day working with me and they had lunch at different times.
> 
> Yes, if they do it again they are fired. Harsh? I don't think so.


I can understand your point. I have worked with many painters of course and yes things can add up and be frustrating. The most important thing is their attitude. Of course if they lie that's no good but... I'm working with a laborer that started with us with little professional paint experience. I was told he had more experience but ya know he's a good guy, tries hard, and however much I train him he puts up with it so give him credit for that. I have been painting for twenty years and I make mistakes. My boss is human too and makes mistakes. But to fire someone for petty reasons is cruel. Just let em know what's up and give him a chance. It's your company and I'm not trying to be oppositional, just understanding. Some people (like me) live paycheck to paycheck and could be out in the streets with my family over a paint tray...


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## chrisn

Mr Smith said:


> What's so "funny" about that?
> 
> If you are on a deadline, and people are waiting to move in, I don't see any problem hiring laborers to help wrap a three story condo. It's not rocket science,and many of these temp workers are unemployed carpenters,electricians,plumbers,contractors etc...I'm sure they can handle cutting and taping plastic to the floors,etc.
> 
> My city has a local facebook group for cash jobs. Its easy to find people who are in need of work. It's a win-win
> 
> I really don't understand the sarcasm in here from some of you folks. WTF with the attitude?


 that's the funny(or not so much)part, plastic on the floors? come on, man


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## CApainter

Leave it to a painter community to fight about masking tape. Lol 
BTW, TIP handles those masking machines like Wyatt Earp handles a six shooter! I need t reattach those ladder hangers.


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## RH

Mr Smith said:


> Now you are trying to justify poor cut lines...The point of the thread was not about the craftsmanship of quality painters but rather the quality of the vast majority of painters. Congrats on being a good cutter.... In case you haven't noticed,the market isn't overflowing with good painters. Using tape will allow a a 5/10 painter to cut like a 10/10 painter. if you don't see the value in that then I don't know what to say.
> 
> Homeowners DO notice paint on the trim work. Maybe not right away,but they notice it eventually.


Well, I don't _think_ I was trying to justify poor cut lines. And to imply that anyone here would be is pretty silly. 

I also didn't feel I was bragging about being good at cutting in. I just think I'm decent at free handing like anyone who considers themselves a professional in this trade should be.

Maybe it's the ex-teacher in me but what ever happened to hiring someone and then training them to perform to a level of which will give the boss, the customer, *and* the worker a level of satisfaction? Maybe in today's business environment that concept is too old fashioned and instead of teaching someone the craft of cutting in it's just simpler, less frustrating, and more efficient to just have them tape. But even good taping is a skill. And, as you've stated, they still have to learn how to cut in at ceiling lines - at least most of the time. So taking that skill and applying it to other cutting in situations really isn't that big a jump IMO.

Guess I am old school enough to think that when a painter, or any type of craftsman in any trade, learns to do a critical part of their craft well, it gives them a sense of accomplishment and pride that shows up in other aspects of their work. If the only thing lead painters or owner/bosses are doing is telling their guys to tape instead of instructing them in the art of their craft, then we really don't have anyone else to blame but ourselves when HO's feel they can do the job themselves just as well as someone who calls themselves a "professional" can do it.

On the others hand, if your labor pool is so low that it's all you can do to scrape up a few warm bodies to get you through the busy season, then getting acceptable results by having your guys simply tape everything makes pretty good sense.


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## lilpaintchic

Exactly. I'd love to have had the time and opportunity to train that guy properly.The timing wasn't right. I don't mind bringing a newb up in the trade...but as a business, the other stronger position s have to be filled first to accomodate that. Poor labor pool, slammed schedule, crummy weather pushed me to make decisions that I don't "like" to make. It is my job to make the tough decisions though. I don't like treating people as disposables. I've been on both sides of the coin and we all gotta feed our families. I can tolorate, guide, set standards and hold people accountable. I am held accountable for the decisions make. Again. If he hadn't lied about his experience (it was painfully evident that his 5 yrs of professional painting experience was nonexistant) and if there hadn't been a significant language barrier. I may have tried to keep him. As it was I dumped him and hired a 20 yr vet, that was productive at a higher wage and completed more in a day alone than the other guy and a 10 yr painter.
It's been a rough summer. We're done. Thank god. I need a vacation.


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## RH

lilpaintchic said:


> Exactly. I'd love to have had the time and opportunity to train that guy properly.The timing wasn't right. I don't mind bringing a newb up in the trade...but as a business, the other stronger position s have to be filled first to accomodate that. Poor labor pool, slammed schedule, crummy weather pushed me to make decisions that I don't "like" to make. It is my job to make the tough decisions though. I don't like treating people as disposables. I've been on both sides of the coin and we all gotta feed our families. I can tolorate, guide, set standards and hold people accountable. I am held accountable for the decisions make. Again. If he hadn't lied about his experience (it was painfully evident that his 5 yrs of professional painting experience was nonexistant) and if there hadn't been a significant language barrier. I may have tried to keep him. As it was I dumped him and hired a 20 yr vet, that was productive at a higher wage and completed more in a day alone than the other guy and a 10 yr painter.
> It's been a rough summer. We're done. Thank god. I need a vacation.


Yeah, I've been "there" as well so I get it. 

Bottom line, whether you choose to maximize tape or minimize it, you do what works well for you and your business. There truly is no wrong or right way, just a matter of preference that might be somewhat tempered by the reality of your own particular situation.


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## Mr Smith

chrisn said:


> that's the funny(or not so much)part, plastic on the floors? come on, man


Polyethylene rolls are plastic.

What do you lay down when you are spraying the baseboards and EVERYTHING in a condo which has new carpet?..I also lay a drop sheet over the plastic.

I'm not sure why the mods allow you to troll this forum.


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## chrisn

Mr Smith said:


> Polyethylene rolls are plastic.
> 
> What do you lay down when you are spraying the baseboards and EVERYTHING in a condo which has new carpet?..I also lay a drop sheet over the plastic.
> 
> I'm not sure why the mods allow you to troll this forum.


because I am so damn cute:whistling2::jester::blink:


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## CApainter

My boss would have been justified kicking my gnads in if I ever started taping an exterior as a crutch for cutting in. 

And as a community, we need to get over that cutting in paint is some fleeting skill set that only the elite will ever master. Lol.

Trust me, you don't need to be that good to make a living at painting.


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## Painting Practice

I've never used tape as a crutch, but do use it as another tool in my van for some projects. Reasons I might use it: caulking base or casing, cleaning up former lines on trim (advancing the new cut line out on to the trim a fraction of an inch). Extreme color changes where several tight cuts are required. keeping wall spatter off contrasting base colors.


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## gyusher

*House Painting*

House painting has changed over the years. Todays interiors are busier with much more detail. That said I'm still kinda old school about 'cutting in' or painting trim. Actually I used to work with an old painter from Chicago who painted everything with a brush including walls, ceilings everything. That old man could paint a room faster with a big block brush than I could using a roller.
I like the looks of a good artistic paint job. I appreciate the skill and time it takes to do it. That said I understand the pressures of time plus having to use mostly unskilled painters. 
They used to tell us that a good painter never spilled a drop of paint on the floor. That's what elbows are for to catch drips. 
This site brings back memories. . . I remember enamel kitchens (stippling) and bathrooms, learning how to brush moulding in such a way as the paint would flow out to look sprayed on, how a 4ft step ladder wasn't a ladder but a work bench, buying white shirts for 25 cents each from the work clothes rental companies, even using evaporated can milk in my coffee at breaks.
Sorry for drifting off into la la land but. . .


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## fipple

Jmayspaint said:


> The master bedroom in that condo had a three tiered tray ceiling with crown at each level. After spraying the trim I was looking at it thinking "it's going to take forever to mask all that, maybe I should just hand paint it". Even to just spray the ceiling parts, I would have to mask the top and bottom edges of the crown. Seemed like a lot to do and I had almost convinced myself it would be faster to just cut it in.
> 
> But no, there's no way it would have been. With two coats to go on the ceilings and walls, that would have been a lot of lines to cut. Lot of trips around the room. So I started masking and two and a half hours later it was ready.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sprayed out the ceilings, painted the walls and finished that room myself in a day (while also running crew in the rest of the house). I'm glad I didn't talk myself into cutting all that in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I enjoy cutting in myself and understand the pride most painters take in their brush work. At one time, I also scoffed at the idea of using tape to make lines. I've evolved, and learning to use tape effectively has dramatically increased efficiency and profits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats some lovely work there!......if its a standard room then i always freehand...but obviously in your/this situation tape was needed....any slight deviation freehand on this would have stood out...lots of parallel line!...
Great job:thumbup:


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## TigerPainting

I'm normally a tapeless painter and I am proud of my freehand lines. But I had an apartment of mine that I needed a quick turn around on, so I decided to try a technique I've been thinking about for a while...ever since I got my 595 Finish Pro II. 

Normally, we'll paint top to bottom, cutting in by hand along the way. It's not especially time consuming, but teaching new crew to give a crap about the cut line is hard to do, and I'm just unwilling to compromise on the quality of a cut. And it takes a long time for a newbie to get cutting nicely. Plus there are some times where a skilled brush is the only way to work a problem. But for this job, I went the other way. I masked the floor off with construction paper, and then the windows and wrapped everything else off in plastic. Then I took the 595 around and sprayed the trim. As you know, that's lightning quick, and the results look like glass. 
Next we taped the trim off with about 1/16" wall "bleed" all over, then painted the top of that tape seam with trim paint and a brush. This step sealed the masking tape. We attached masking film to the trim, then sprayed all the walls out, backrolling along the way. Again, lightning fast. 
Then I taped the tops of the walls with about 1/16" wall exposed, then sealed that tape with wall paint again. Then we mask-filmed the walls. At this point, I've got everything in the apartment covered in plastic except the ceilings. 
Then we sprayed and backrolled the ceilings. After 2nd coat, we immediately removed the tape. The results were shocking. We had about 2 or 3 spots needing a touchup where the paint had pulled away, but less than 10 minutes work. Cleared out all the garbage, and the place is as crisp as any hand cut line I've ever done. Still running the numbers on time, but the good news is, any goofball can do the taping, while my more skilled crew can run the 595. It was an instructive project.
I'm still a believer in hand cut lines, but this is a great arrow for the quiver, for sure.


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## Gough

Finally waded through this thread, lots of interesting tips and varied viewpoints.

My $0.02: for ~90% of our resi repaints, we tape the tops of base to prevent spatter and put "hoods" on head casings to keep the spatter off door and window trim.

Two of the jobs we just finished were part of the other 10%. On one job, we were doing trim only in some of the rooms, no walls, no ceiling. The trim had all be re-set because of changes in the finished floor. We taped the walls with Frog yellow, then caulked with white DAP 230. After priming and 2 coats of Advance, we pulled the tape the next day.

On the other job, there was a dramatic color change and varnished oak trim. We taped the edges of the trim with 3M 2080, then caulked with 230 (clear). We primed with a deep tone primer, and then finished with 2-3 topcoats. After letting the paint dry overnight, we pulled the tape.

In both cases, the circumstances (not painting walls or drastic color changes) and number of coats (3-4) made the decision easy. The time spent masking and caulking (and pulling mask) was more than offset by the speed with which we could apply each coat.


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## Jmayspaint

Gough said:


> In both cases, the circumstances (not painting walls or drastic color changes) and number of coats (3-4) made the decision easy. The time spent masking and caulking (and pulling mask) was more than offset by the speed with which we could apply each coat.




That example is really the point I would make in a nut shell IMO. Tape is a tool. A potentially valuable tool in certain situations. 

Taking advantage of modern technology (hand maskers, edge lock, safe release, etc.) is not a betrayal to our trade. Any more than a nail gun is a betrayal to the carpentry trade. 

Doesn't mean taping is going to work for everybody. If your a classical brush guy/gal who scorns taping and doesn't want to learn it, then it's probably not going to be a production/quality boon for you personally. 

I don't necessarily agree with a previous poster who claimed "any goofball can do taping". Of course, they're correct in the most general of senses. Any goofball can do any human trade. All you really need is opposable thumbs and basic direction. 

But to do taping that results in professional level lines in a timely manner that doesn't damage the surface, and can be removed easily, takes a little skill. Maybe not as much as learning to cut in, but still. 

I personally had as hard a time learning to tape properly and efficiently as I did learning to cut in. Of course, I learned to cut in as a youth and they say your brain is much more plastic and impressionable at the stage in life. I never seriously tried to learn to tape professionally till I was in my 30's. I feel great about it now, glad I put in the effort. It's a profitable skill/tool to have in the bag. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vylum

i dont care what anyone says a dude who can cut fast and accurate with a true professional lines is rare, BS cutting paint is an easy skill painters need to get over. ive worked with plenty of 30 year guys who just cant get it. you get a guy like bill gates playing basketball he will be no steph curry, im sorry to say there are talented pros out there can put a lot of us to shame.

cutting is an easy skill? how fast is fast? how straight is straight? two very difficult parameters it break into the top 10% on this globe. i do agree taping isnt easy, i love the skill of taping, not easy at all but tape is a crutch, pros dont line everything with tape. spraying walls in interiors sounds silly, too much could go wrong, too much taping


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## Jmayspaint

Vylum said:


> i dont care what anyone says a dude who can cut fast and accurate with a true professional lines is rare....




It absolutely is. Rarer still is the skilled pro who knows that one certain skill set, whether it be cutting a sharp line, or getting good flow from a roller, isn't the the end all be all in the game of coatings application. 

The query in the OP seemed to be whether or not taping for lines could be beneficial in running a productive paint crew considering the current labor pool limitations for painters (and the building trades in general). 

I wood say yes, it could be. If one had a motivated individual or two wanting to learn how to use tape effectively it could be a great boon to the production of a mediocre paint crew. 

OTOH, a bunch of deadbeat painters who can't even cut a line, and aren't motivated to learn how to, probably wouldn't do much better with a roll of tape in their hand than they do with a brush. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The Cutting Edge

I can remember arguing with DeArch a few years back about this subject. My first few years of painting were all on textured walls and I always cut my lines to the base. Nowadays I rarely see textured walls anymore. I always tape the top of base. Its a win win for me. It keeps the roller spatter off and gives me the cleanest line possible. For me it takes no more time to tape it and hit it quickly with a brush when I'm rolling the wall than it does to cut it in. It doesn't matter if cutting that line in makes me feel good about my skills or not. I get the cleanest lines every time with tape. That's better for me and my customers. And yes it takes skill to tape trim. I feel just as good when I pull that tape off the base and it leaves a perfect line as cutting it in.
I can't believe some of you guys have been painting for years and years and don't know how to use a masker. Spray much? A masker with 99in plastic or 12in paper gets used on my jobs almost daily. Its an important tool that saves me a lot of time and money.


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## CApainter

like anything else, and with enough practice, anyone can cut an adequate line of paint without tape. But it takes a conscious effort and desire that's often absent in this trade. And there are a lot of variables for poor cut lines. From lousy brush choice and maintenance, to difficult paint properties, physical impairments, and simply not allowing enough time to calmly produce a pleasing paint product.

Bottom line in terms of tape, you can't match the straightness of a sprayed cut line. But we're not always spraying. So, why waste time taping everything if you're not spraying? For example, the Bay Area in CA, often has precipitation in the way of fog. If I never learned how to cut in French Windows off a swing stage, or extension ladder, without the use of tape, I would have never lasted in this trade. 

Are my cut lines in the top 8% of the best painters out there as Vylum suggested? Absolutely not. But they are absolutely passable for a free handed paint product. As a matter of fact, I have never been called on my cut lines by a customer, or by my employers for that matter. But, I'm sure there are plenty of my peers that would relish in the opportunity to pick apart my work. I just look at it as insecurity.


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## Gough

Jmayspaint said:


> That example is really the point I would make in a nut shell IMO. Tape is a tool. A potentially valuable tool in certain situations.
> 
> Taking advantage of modern technology (hand maskers, edge lock, safe release, etc.) is not a betrayal to our trade. Any more than a nail gun is a betrayal to the carpentry trade.
> 
> Doesn't mean taping is going to work for everybody. If your a classical brush guy/gal who scorns taping and doesn't want to learn it, then it's probably not going to be a production/quality boon for you personally.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree with a previous poster who claimed "any goofball can do taping". Of course, they're correct in the most general of senses. Any goofball can do any human trade. All you really need is opposable thumbs and basic direction.
> 
> But to do taping that results in professional level lines in a timely manner that doesn't damage the surface, and can be removed easily, takes a little skill. Maybe not as much as learning to cut in, but still.
> 
> I personally had as hard a time learning to tape properly and efficiently as I did learning to cut in. Of course, I learned to cut in as a youth and they say your brain is much more plastic and impressionable at the stage in life. I never seriously tried to learn to tape professionally till I was in my 30's. I feel great about it now, glad I put in the effort. It's a profitable skill/tool to have in the bag.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Early in my career, during a previous building slump, one of my painting clients offered me a few month's work as a hoddy. The mason with whom I worked had a wide range of skills and made the comment that the more skills you had, the better your future in the trades. That advice has stood me in good stead.


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## Vylum

alot of tape guys dont talk about the negatives of it. it can bleed, you can lay it wrong, you have to buy it, you have to carry it around.i tape base but tape does take time. also i bet tape guys lose confidence in hitting frames, i know its a fine skill i need to keep tight or i lose brush skill while doing other tasks


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## Gough

Vylum said:


> alot of tape guys dont talk about the negatives of it. it can bleed, you can lay it wrong, you have to buy it, you have to carry it around.i tape base but tape does take time. also i bet tape guys lose confidence in hitting frames, i know its a fine skill i need to keep tight or i lose brush skill while doing other tasks


Bleeding is pretty much eliminated with the newer tapes (Frog, 3M EdgeLock, etc.) when properly used- a light pass with a brush or, as I posted above, a thin layer of caulk.

Even with these more expensive tapes, the savings in time can often make up for the cost. I figure that, if a $7.50 roll of tape saves us more than 6 minutes, it's saving us money.

One of the attached-lid totes that goes into virtually every one of our interior jobs is the one labeled MASK. 

I don't know any pros that are strictly "tape" guys, so I can't speak to that lost confidence comment. I think a lot of us, as indicated by comments upthread, merely see tape as one more tool to use when appropriate.


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## Jmayspaint

Vylum said:


> alot of tape guys dont talk about the negatives of it. it can bleed, you can lay it wrong, you have to buy it, you have to carry it around.i tape base but tape does take time. also i bet tape guys lose confidence in hitting frames, i know its a fine skill i need to keep tight or i lose brush skill while doing other tasks




Those problems are what's meant by 'learning to use tape. It isn't the tapes fault if it bleeds, is applied wrong, or takes too long to apply. 

I agree with you on keeping your skills sharp. It's important to stay well rounded in my opinion. The other day I got to brush a bunch of smooth, 6 panel doors. Been a while since I did that, and it took a few doors to get back in the swing. Painting is kinda like riding a bike, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to immediately do a flip on your BMX after not riding it for a year. 

You've been at this trade what, 7 or 8 years IIRC? Give it another 10-15 and you just might get tired of all that brushing. I sure do at times. Heck, I may start using a paint pad one day just to break the monotony 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gough

Jmayspaint said:


> Those problems are what's meant by 'learning to use tape. It isn't the tapes fault if it bleeds, is applied wrong, or takes too long to apply.
> 
> I agree with you on keeping your skills sharp. It's important to stay well rounded in my opinion. The other day I got to brush a bunch of smooth, 6 panel doors. Been a while since I did that, and it took a few doors to get back in the swing. Painting is kinda like riding a bike, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to immediately do a flip on your BMX after not riding it for a year.
> 
> You've been at this trade what, 7 or 8 years IIRC? Give it another 10-15 and you just might get tired of all that brushing. I sure do at times. Heck, I may start using a paint pad one day just to break the monotony
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When we have a handful of flush doors to varnish and spraying isn't feasible, we grab some paint pads.

Don't freak out PT'ers, it's just another tool.


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## CApainter

This is just not turning into the fight I was hoping for. 

As an employee, I think it's the contractor, owner/operator, solo painter, entrepreneur, whatever you want to call it, that sets the tone for the use of tape. And it's been my experience that all of them get their girdles in a pinch if they see you using tape beyond simply protecting baseboards and door knobs from spatter.


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## Gough

CApainter said:


> This is just not turning into the fight I was hoping for.
> 
> As an employee, I think it's the contractor, owner/operator, solo painter, entrepreneur, whatever you want to call it, that sets the tone for the use of tape. And it's been my experience that all of them get their girdles in a pinch if they see you using tape beyond simply protecting baseboards and door knobs from spatter.


Aw, jeez, here we go again....


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## CApainter

Gough said:


> Aw, jeez, here we go again....


Damnit!


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## CApainter

Aw jeez!(shout out to Fargo) I thought you were referring to the spelling. Now I get it.


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## CApainter

Along with the crime of taping door casings, my boss would have punched me right in the center of the back of my head had he discovered I removed a door nob just in order to paint a door.

And for all you millenials who find this sort of work place violence shocking, I'm old school. That's how we rolled.


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## ridesarize

CApainter said:


> Along with the crime of taping door casings, my boss would have punched me right in the center of the back of my head had he discovered I removed a door nob just in order to paint a door.
> 
> And for all you millenials who find this sort of work place violence shocking, I'm old school. That's how we rolled.


Nob?


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## CApainter

ridesarize said:


> Nob?


I got tired of "K" not speaking up. So, I fired him.


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## Mr Smith

I've always used tape on baseboards. I made a decision to Frog tape everything this year and the resulting speed/professionalism has increased across the board.

.

You can't beat taping for perfect cut lines and eventual speed. Once you have it dialed in, production increases.


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## Vylum

Jmayspaint said:


> Those problems are what's meant by 'learning to use tape. It isn't the tapes fault if it bleeds, is applied wrong, or takes too long to apply.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i agree but my point was everyone has an off frame if you hitting them all day, tape or free hand. im saying a good freehand guy is more reliable than a good tape guy inherently because he can see whats hes doing. taping is a mystery until its pulled


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## The Cutting Edge

If you have bleed through by taping the top edge of base there's a 99% chance you're doing it wrong. Maybe some dust or grime under the tape? Or maybe you glopped it heavy on the seem. I never get any bleed through and I use regular old blue tape. I never have to reach down there with a rag and smear off that spot where it got a little heavy and ran on the trim or wipe off those 20 little bitty spatter spots. Nope when I pull that tape off its the best line possible and the trim is as clean as the day I sprayed it.


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## Gough

Vylum said:


> i agree but my point was everyone has an off frame if you hitting them all day, tape or free hand. im saying a good freehand guy is more reliable than a good tape guy inherently because he can see whats hes doing. taping is a mystery until its pulled


Not once you have a modicum of taping skill and confidence in your products and procedures.

In all fairness, I can recall when I did feel that way...a certain unease when pulling mask and worrying about bleed through or misplaced tape. It's been a while.


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## 007 Dave

Most pros can cut a straight line. Most pros don't mask the baseboards because they can't cut a straight line. It is mask off to keep the roller specks off the floor and baseboard.Mask the baseboards and you have straight lines AND no specks on the floor or base. If the paint is bleeding threw you are using cheap tape or you don't know how to mask.


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## Vylum

Gough said:


> Not once you have a modicum of taping skill and confidence in your products and procedures.
> 
> In all fairness, I can recall when I did feel that way...a certain unease when pulling mask and worrying about bleed through or misplaced tape. It's been a while.


okay you just want to not listen and argue. cool


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## Vylum

007 Dave said:


> Most pros can cut a straight line. Most pros don't mask the baseboards because they can't cut a straight line. It is mask off to keep the roller specks off the floor and baseboard.Mask the baseboards and you have straight lines AND no specks on the floor or base. If the paint is bleeding threw you are using cheap tape or you don't know how to mask.


not true no one tapes base to keep paint off the floor dont be silly and lots of pros tape off base because its a pain in the arse to cut so low and its just as fast and looks better to use tape. frames are a differnt story because they are at a better height and its easier to drop your brush vertical and horizontal inches off the floor..

sorry tape guys but it fails every once in a while just like anyones freehand cuts do, yes i know how to lay tape just fine, lets be realistic


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## chrisn

Vylum said:


> not true no one tapes base to keep paint off the floor dont be silly and lots of pros tape off base because its a pain in the arse to cut so low and its just as fast and looks better to use tape. frames are a differnt story because they are at a better height and its easier to drop your brush vertical and horizontal inches off the floor..
> 
> sorry tape guys but it fails every once in a while just like anyones freehand cuts do, yes i know how to lay tape just fine, lets be realistic


 
Wellllllllllll, once again you know it all and are 100% correct(as usual).All the rest of us( with a combined knowledge of probably a couple hundred years) know absolutely nothing and should give up painting entirely. Thanks so much for your wisdom, you can now go home and take your ball with you, see if we care


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## Chuck the painter

Never used tape 20 years ago now we use it all the time. However, I will say you can't find a good Brushman anymore. 
I hired an experienced painter that couldn't cut once. He was dumbfounded that I hand cut two rooms before he rolled them.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## CApainter

Is there any other trade that allows more variables of application than painting? I mean, you can use tape, or not, and you'll still get paid for the finished product. But I suppose there will always be a need for painters to insist that their method is better than others. Meanwhile, the homeowner is ready to cut a check for the same color and sheen whether or not the process involved Frog tape, Corona brushes, grids, pans, cut pots, airless, ten fingers, or five. And, regardless how long it took.

The whole thing is rife with illusion. From the cut to the color, be the best magician you can be.


----------



## Gough

Vylum said:


> okay you just want to not listen and argue. cool


Sorry that you misunderstood my previous comment, I was serious. I can recall a serious discussion about this topic with a client that happened about 10 years after I started painting for a living. He asked why the painters in our company didn't use masking tape more. I raised the same points you have in this thread, almost verbatim: trade skills, cost, speed, etc., etc.

Over the next 35+ years, I saw the larger picture and realized that tape is just another tool in the quiver and makes sense in a number of situations.


----------



## CApainter

One way to validate an opinion in an argument, in terms of trade practice, is to determine if what is being proposed, or implemented in a process, would be considered a "best" practice. 

Gough's last post suggests tape was often used in the painting trade before it became limited in the interest of time and money. So, is taping and masking (everything) prior to the application of paint, regardless of brushing or spraying, a best practice? I think it may be. Especially considering it is included in bid proposals under the general preparation practices.

Now, will I begin to mask everything I've become accostomed to freehanding? Probably not. Afterall, I'm not obligated as a painter to follow any standards. And as long as the majority of field supervisors insist that their work force limit the use of tape, free handing will continue to be used and developed as a measure of brush competency.


----------



## Gough

CApainter said:


> One way to validate an opinion in an argument, in terms of trade practice, is to determine if what is being proposed, or implemented in a process, would be considered a "best" practice.
> 
> Gough's last post suggests tape was often used in the painting trade before it became limited in the interest of time and money. So, is taping and masking (everything) prior to the application of paint, regardless of brushing or spraying, a best practice?
> 
> <<<SNIP>>>
> 
> .


I'm not sure if I'll ever mask ceilings before cutting in walls, but who knows? I am fairly confident that, in another 35 years, I'm not gonna care.


----------



## CApainter

Gough said:


> I'm not sure if I'll ever mask ceilings before cutting in walls, but who knows? I am fairly confident that, in another 35 years, I'm not gonna care.


If I didn't feel that part of my obligation as a painter, was to leave a little knowledge for the generations to come, I too wouldn't care. And you really have to be self motivated when searching for those industry resources that promote best practices. The vagaries in the painting trade, make this difficult. It's really a labor of love. *and....cut*


----------



## Vylum

chrisn said:


> Wellllllllllll, once again you know it all and are 100% correct(as usual).All the rest of us( with a combined knowledge of probably a couple hundred years) know absolutely nothing and should give up painting entirely. Thanks so much for your wisdom, you can now go home and take your ball with you, see if we care


yeah keep taping off base to protect the floor and trim! lol, how much do your rollers spray to justify taping base ONLY for protection? if i saw a painter taping up the base in a 3k sf house thats already cut to "protect the floor" id snap


----------



## ridesarize

Vylum said:


> yeah keep taping off base to protect the floor and trim! lol, how much do your rollers spray to justify taping base ONLY for protection? if i saw a painter taping up the base in a 3k sf house thats already cut to "protect the floor" id snap


I cover base AND the floor from roller spatter, and all the dust from spackling and sanding walls/trim. Don't we all?. I usually use 4' floor paper that covers all pertinent floors. Then just 1.5" blue for baseboard tops. Floor and base is protected. 

But not all jobs can have that level of floor protection done. Just did a 4000 sq ft home that wasn't bid to paper floors. We used drops, which will move away from the baseboards, thusly leaving coverage gaps. The places where we just painted despite that got all speckled which got cleaned. The solution is either use paper and tape on top of base, or if the base had blue 1.5" already, I'd load the masker with 1" blonde/9" paper, and quickly throw masking down low on the face of the baseboard. That covers against splatter ONLY and it was worth it in a 4000 sq ft house.

I do hope someone wouldn't tape base after it was cut as well, but that wouldn't happen.


----------



## 007 Dave

Vylum said:


> yeah keep taping off base to protect the floor and trim! lol, how much do your rollers spray to justify taping base ONLY for protection? if i saw a painter taping up the base in a 3k sf house thats already cut to "protect the floor" id snap


You can't be a real painter. Things you say just don't make sense. I bet you work for your local burger king and you got real cocky once they put you in charge of the fries.

You should listen more to some of these experienced painters, you just might learn something.

Unless you are trying to help some one you shouldn't comment. It really makes you look very un-smart.


----------



## Gough

Vylum said:


> yeah keep taping off base to protect the floor and trim! lol, how much do your rollers spray to justify taping base ONLY for protection? if i saw a painter taping up the base in a 3k sf house thats already cut to "protect the floor" id snap


How slowly do you roll??:whistling2:

Seriously, I'd estimate that 90% of the time, we mask the base solely to protect the trim, "not to cut to". I'd love to have you come down to watch.


----------



## Vylum

ridesarize said:


> I cover base AND the floor from roller spatter, and all the dust from spackling and sanding walls/trim. Don't we all?. I usually use 4' floor paper that covers all pertinent floors. Then just 1.5" blue for baseboard tops. Floor and base is protected.
> 
> But not all jobs can have that level of floor protection done. Just did a 4000 sq ft home that wasn't bid to paper floors. We used drops, which will move away from the baseboards, thusly leaving coverage gaps. The places where we just painted despite that got all speckled which got cleaned. The solution is either use paper and tape on top of base, or if the base had blue 1.5" already, I'd load the masker with 1" blonde/9" paper, and quickly throw masking down low on the face of the baseboard. That covers against splatter ONLY and it was worth it in a 4000 sq ft house.
> 
> I do hope someone wouldn't tape base after it was cut as well, but that wouldn't happen.


hey im with you on most of it, coverage gaps arnt really an issue enough for me to go through the hassle of papering up the whole house but i admire your dedication. 

why dont you ask the free hand base guys about base protection ? they like to pout their chest and they are crawling all over this site. i tape base but its primary function isnt protection, lol, that redick. maybe you guys are using a leaky set up who knows


----------



## Vylum

Gough said:


> Seriously, I'd estimate that 90% of the time, we mask the base solely to protect the trim





ridesarize said:


> I do hope someone wouldn't tape base after it was cut as well, but that wouldn't happen.


lol. keep on painting in the free world, bro


----------



## Jmayspaint

Vylum said:


> lol. keep on painting in the free world, bro




It's possible your slightly missing the point (or one of them anyway) in that juxtaposition you just made. 

If I'm going to tape off the baseboard, or wainscot, or whatever to protect from roller splatter or other contamination then why not make the line while I'm at it? 

Gotta think outside the brush sometimes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vylum

Jmayspaint said:


> It's possible your slightly missing the point (or one of them anyway) in that juxtaposition you just made.
> 
> If I'm going to tape off the baseboard, or wainscot, or whatever to protect from roller splatter or other contamination then why not make the line while I'm at it?
> 
> Gotta think outside the brush sometimes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thats what im trying to tell these kids. like i said ASK THE FREEHAND DUDES THAT.


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## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> When we have a handful of flush doors to varnish and spraying isn't feasible, we grab some paint pads.
> 
> Don't freak out PT'ers, it's just another tool.


They make cutting to raco a breeze...
I also love em on a repaints same color/sheen as existing...yup, just another tool. One that takes skill and practice to master it... were effing jedi pad painters.woot!woot!


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## ridesarize

lilpaintchic said:


> They make cutting to raco a breeze...
> I also love em on a repaints same color/sheen as existing...yup, just another tool. One that takes skill and practice to master it... were effing jedi pad painters.woot!woot!


That's funny, my daughter and I are watching stars wars right now. A good painter should be able paint pad a door in less than a parsec or two.


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## Gough

Jmayspaint said:


> It's possible your slightly missing the point (or one of them anyway) in that juxtaposition you just made.
> 
> If I'm going to tape off the baseboard, or wainscot, or whatever to protect from roller splatter or other contamination then why not make the line while I'm at it?
> 
> Gotta think outside the brush sometimes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I'm only concerned about spatter, etc., we can mask it faster than masking it "to cut to", but I see your point.


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## CApainter

Gough said:


> If I'm only concerned about spatter, etc., we can mask it faster than masking it "to cut to", but I see your point.


But you would have had to finish the base boards before painting the walls, right? 

And on that vein, is it a best practice to complete trim before painting walls, in terms of sequence? Again, so many variables that influence the use of tape, or not.


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## AngieM

Another function of the baseboard tape is the ability to roll completely to the base eliminating a lower hatband. I always tape off base because I can mask faster than I can scrub off roller spatter. 

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Vylum

when someone says tape off base i have no idea if they are setting the line also or just laying it for protection. we just went over this, some freehand base so you people need to specify when you say what you do


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## lilpaintchic

CApainter said:


> But you would have had to finish the base boards before painting the walls, right?
> 
> And on that vein, is it a best practice to complete trim before painting walls, in terms of sequence? Again, so many variables that influence the use of tape, or not.


Yes, trim first, bag, then walls imo..


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## CApainter

lilpaintchic said:


> Yes, trim first, bag, then walls imo..


I've done that method many times, but generally, do ceiling and walls first followed by trim work. It's just the way I was taught. Very minimal taping required. But I could see that precise taping would be necessary by doing trim first.

I would argue however, that doing trim first and walls last, is better suited for spraying rather than brush and rolling.


----------



## Gough

CApainter said:


> But you would have had to finish the base boards before painting the walls, right?
> 
> And on that vein, is it a best practice to complete trim before painting walls, in terms of sequence? Again, so many variables that influence the use of tape, or not.


We almost always do trim, then walls. Not only was I taught to do it that way, but the other order never made sense. Cutting the edge of the trim against the wall, especially standing trim, versus cutting the wall paint to the trim?? That's what the old-timers that I first worked with would call "working upside down".

EDIT: the same order applies to spray versus brush/roll.


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## CApainter

Gough said:


> We almost always do trim, then walls. Not only was I taught to do it that way, but the other order never made sense. Cutting the edge of the trim against the wall, especially standing trim, versus cutting the wall paint to the trim?? That's what the old-timers that I first worked with would call "working upside down".
> 
> EDIT: the same order applies to spray versus brush/roll.


Well, if you consider traditional training, as it's been taught by recognized painting apprenticeships in large metropolitan areas, then I suppose I've been painting upside down for forty years. I'm surprised I've lasted as long as I have!

Now, given that I am open minded and not driven by ego, I have no problem painting trim first in certain situations. And I have, as mentioned in my post upstream. But, I'm not so certain tape was used in the capacity it is now, given that the airless paint sprayer wasn't used, or even allowed by union paint shops until maybe the mid twentieth century, or later?

In any event, if a painter is comfortable taping the bajeezus out of a job, I say allow their little heart that desire.


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## chrisn

CApainter said:


> Well, if you consider traditional training, as it's been taught by recognized painting apprenticeships in large metropolitan areas, then I suppose I've been painting upside down for forty years. I'm surprised I've lasted as long as I have!
> 
> Now, given that I am open minded and not driven by ego, I have no problem painting trim first in certain situations. And I have, as mentioned in my post upstream. But, I'm not so certain tape was used in the capacity it is now, given that the airless paint sprayer wasn't used, or even allowed by union paint shops until maybe the mid twentieth century, or later?
> 
> In any event, if a painter is comfortable taping the bajeezus out of a job, I say allow their little heart that desire.


 You are not alone my friend


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## CApainter

chrisn said:


> You are not alone my friend


You would think so the way this taping thing is turning! Thanks Chris.

But really, I think we've all realized by now, that no one has the market on the method of painting. At the end of the day, any true professional painter will know what they need to do to complete a job successfully. And, we have to give credit to those who've been in this industry for a significant length of time, regardless of their methods, before we start suggesting they are disoriented in their craft.


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## slinger58

One question I have for those who have experience and proficiency with taping, do you have to let the paint dry overnight (walls or trim) before you can apply tape to it?


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## The Cutting Edge

slinger58 said:


> One question I have for those who have experience and proficiency with taping, do you have to let the paint dry overnight (walls or trim) before you can apply tape to it?


I suppose it depends on what you use for your trim. I always use accolade and let it sit overnight. I would say if you're using breakthrough or multi surface acrylic you could probably do it in 4 hours maybe. When I tape colonial base its only the very top 1\8 or 3/16 that the tape is actually stuck to. I just let the remaining tape kind of hang out on its own. It catches more spatter that way and your drop doesn't have to be right up next to the trim. The tape actually sticks out 1\2 or 3/4 past the actual base.


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## Vylum

slinger58 said:


> One question I have for those who have experience and proficiency with taping, do you have to let the paint dry overnight (walls or trim) before you can apply tape to it?


i would leave it for at least overnight.

i usually cut down feature walls but if the corner is bad i do use tape,only time i use tape on drywall really. i have successfully put tape on a wall and pulled it off 3 hours after finish coat but keep in mind i lay the tape as fast as possible, only stick down the tape edge thats hitting the paint so the least amount of tape surface area is hitting the wall and finally hit it with the brush quickly and pull tape right away. everything very fast and delicate. obviously i avoid being in that situation and keep in mind thats risky and you might have to open the mud up. 

trim same thing, 4 hours IF YOU HAVE TO but be quick. if you are forced into the situation of having to tape trim when the paint is soft dont tape up the whole house, tape an appropriate section of trim, finish the wall are are painting then pull right away. it will take more time going back and forth tape to roller/brush but at least if something goes wrong its just for a small stretch and you can let it cure for longer.


----------



## lilpaintchic

CApainter said:


> I've done that method many times, but generally, do ceiling and walls first followed by trim work. It's just the way I was taught. Very minimal taping required. But I could see that precise taping would be necessary by doing trim first.
> 
> I would argue however, that doing trim first and walls last, is better suited for spraying rather than brush and rolling.


That's how I did it for many, many years....I finally decided to try it the other way...it makes a huge difference in productivity (meaning profit) and it just looks better, imo. The way I look at it is that we 2 coat just about everything, it takes about the same amount of time to tape something off that it does to cut it once. Why not? The ho pays for it...I don't save anything by not doing it. especially on larger projects and it doesn't make me less of a painter to do so. I can swing a brush with the best of em (I'm not claiming super powers, I'm just seasoned...) my head just isn't that big anymore...and I'm not real attached to the idea of my entire identity resting in or on a paint bucket like some ding dong shredders out there...


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## lilpaintchic

slinger58 said:


> One question I have for those who have experience and proficiency with taping, do you have to let the paint dry overnight (walls or trim) before you can apply tape to it?


It depends on the paint, the project and the tape used. 3m used to make a stiff white tape 2090? I think it was that was GREAT for transition walls about 1hr after painting. Haven't seen it in years...you can use 2080 or my favorite ipg blue if it's up and down in a couple of hours on a freshly painted surface....


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## Vylum

im curious when do you trim last guys cock? do you slam right up against the frame with wall paint, stay off it a tiny bit or rough cut it? if the frames are white which they are a lot of the time arnt you stacking alot of coats against tape on a finished wall to get coverage? if you dont finish the frames do you leave the tape on the drywall over night? how long do you usually wait average time until you tape the wall? so many questions, seems like it complicates things


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## slinger58

Well, let's ask the question of what's the hardest freehand cut to do. 

For my money, it's the top of a chair-rail. When freehanding a baseboard, you can cheat a little up the wall. When cutting a wall, you can cheat cheat a little up to the crown. But the top of a chair-rail is at that magical height that allows no error. That's when a good tape job can really pay off.


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## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> It depends on the paint, the project and the tape used. 3m used to make a stiff white tape 2090? I think it was that was GREAT for transition walls about 1hr after painting. Haven't seen it in years...you can use 2080 or my favorite ipg blue if it's up and down in a couple of hours on a freshly painted surface....


We've still got some rolls of the white delicate surface tape, I'll check the number when I get back to the shop later this week. 

I think 3M has re-numbered it and markets it to a different crowd. I think it is #3051. That certainly looks like the same product.


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## Vylum

slinger58 said:


> Well, let's ask the question of what's the hardest freehand cut to do.
> 
> For my money, it's the top of a chair-rail. When freehanding a baseboard, you can cheat a little up the wall. When cutting a wall, you can cheat cheat a little up to the crown. But the top of a chair-rail is at that magical height that allows no error. That's when a good tape job can really pay off.


pfff, try two tone wainscoting. im using lots of tape for that, id go nuts cutting those squares


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## ridesarize

Vylum said:


> im curious when do you trim last guys cock? do you slam right up against the frame with wall paint, stay off it a tiny bit or rough cut it? if the frames are white which they are a lot of the time arnt you stacking alot of coats against tape on a finished wall to get coverage? if you dont finish the frames do you leave the tape on the drywall over night? how long do you usually wait average time until you tape the wall? so many questions, seems like it complicates things



These are all things you learn (are trained) to do millpacks. Qualified millpack painters aren't guessing which techniques, or procedures to do, and in which order. You are trained to achieve the job as a team. Usually the lead guy is not still learning how long one is able to leave tape on the wall, or how to paint perimeter caulking.

Your answers: trim last guys do the caulking during the prep stage. Trim is installed and we come in and do filling and sanding first, then clean and caulk trim to itself and walls. In the scenario where trim gets painted second, well the walls are first and second coated (or seconded if they were hit previously.) The cut-ins go against the trim without getting build up or ecxess up on the sides of the casing/top of base. So maybe cut it 1/16th up on trim. That is important to paint over the half of caulking bead that's on the wall. 
Next mask walls off with 9 or 12" paper, with creased flaps to stop spray from hitting walls. Shouldn't plastic walls except for an adjacent wall here or there that might get some overspray. 

Spraying is definitely the way to go over brushing due to obstacle of priming and double coating the finish. Also when brushed it would bleed through unless you sealed the tape but that's insane compared to spraying effectiveness/efficiency. Now if the job calls for brushing trim that's cool too, you just may do it differently, like sealing tape lines, or doing trim first.

Now if you don't finish the frames in one day that's fine, leave the masking as long as you want. If you did a good job on walls it won't matter. If it pulls paint or texture than the wall was dusty when painted, or the paint was just gonna pull no matter what.


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## Vylum

ridesarize said:


> These are all things you learn (are trained) to do millpacks. Qualified millpack painters aren't guessing which techniques, or procedures to do, and in which order. You are trained to achieve the job as a team. Usually the lead guy is not still learning how long one is able to leave tape on the wall, or how to paint perimeter caulking.
> 
> Your answers: trim last guys do the caulking during the prep stage. Trim is installed and we come in and do filling and sanding first, then clean and caulk trim to itself and walls. In the scenario where trim gets painted second, well the walls are first and second coated (or seconded if they were hit previously.) The cut-ins go against the trim without getting build up or ecxess up on the sides of the casing/top of base. So maybe cut it 1/16th up on trim. That is important to paint over the half of caulking bead that's on the wall.
> Next mask walls off with 9 or 12" paper, with creased flaps to stop spray from hitting walls. Shouldn't plastic walls except for an adjacent wall here or there that might get some overspray.
> 
> Spraying is definitely the way to go over brushing due to obstacle of priming and double coating the finish. Also when brushed it would bleed through unless you sealed the tape but that's insane compared to spraying effectiveness/efficiency. Now if the job calls for brushing trim that's cool too, you just may do it differently, like sealing tape lines, or doing trim first.
> 
> Now if you don't finish the frames in one day that's fine, leave the masking as long as you want. If you did a good job on walls it won't matter. If it pulls paint or texture than the wall was dusty when painted, or the paint was just gonna pull no matter what.


or your just doing it wrong, ever think of that?


----------



## ridesarize

Vylum said:


> or your just doing it wrong, ever think of that?


What are you talking about? 

I tried to answer the direct questions you had. I was not analyzing you or your methods, was I?

I usually paint trim first like you, but have done millpacks several different routes, and interiors several different routes.... But in my first 6 years we blew out walls before trim installation, then masked walls to spray high gloss oil impervo. NC and repaint require different routes to get the job done and "every job is different" as they say.


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## The Cutting Edge

Vylum said:


> or your just doing it wrong, ever think of that?


Good god man. Seems to me you don't listen or try to learn anything. This site is for people to learn new things and give helpful advice. You don't do either of those. I wouldn't worry about tape on any of your jobs. I'm sure it wouldn't adhere to all the dust and cobwebs you left.


----------



## chrisn

ridesarize said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I tried to answer the direct questions you had. I was not analyzing you or your methods, was I?
> 
> I usually paint trim first like you, but have done millpacks several different routes, and interiors several different routes.... But in my first 6 years we blew out walls before trim installation, then masked walls to spray high gloss oil impervo. NC and repaint require different routes to get the job done and "every job is different" as they say.


Good god man. Seems to me you don't listen or try to learn anything. This site is for people to learn new things and give helpful advice. You don't do either of those. I wouldn't worry about tape on any of your jobs. I'm sure it wouldn't adhere to all the dust and cobwebs you left.

I am learning to just ignore this dufus, sometimes the stupid just cannot be taught


----------



## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> We've still got some rolls of the white delicate surface tape, I'll check the number when I get back to the shop later this week.
> 
> I think 3M has re-numbered it and markets it to a different crowd. I think it is #3051. That certainly looks like the same product.


I wish they'd bring that and dual tack back....very useful stuff imo...
And I wonder if that 3051 is it? It sure could be useful to those they're marketing it to....wonder where I can get my hands on some? Online I suppose..?


----------



## lilpaintchic

chrisn said:


> Good god man. Seems to me you don't listen or try to learn anything. This site is for people to learn new things and give helpful advice. You don't do either of those. I wouldn't worry about tape on any of your jobs. I'm sure it wouldn't adhere to all the dust and cobwebs you left.
> 
> I am learning to just ignore this dufus, sometimes the stupid just cannot be taught


Trolls are best left to starve...pity, really. We like to help each other around here. At some point each of us has a question and benefit from the wealth of experience we've found....it's called community. Glory *****s just don't get it....


----------



## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> I wish they'd bring that and dual tack back....very useful stuff imo...
> And I wonder if that 3051 is it? It sure could be useful to those they're marketing it to....wonder where I can get my hands on some? Online I suppose..?


Yes, the 3051 and a replacement (knockoff) for DualTac are available online. The outfit selling the DualTac also has a near-copy of the 3M applicator.


----------



## Gough

ridesarize said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I tried to answer the direct questions you had. I was not analyzing you or your methods, was I?
> 
> I usually paint trim first like you, but have done millpacks several different routes, and interiors several different routes.... But in my first 6 years we blew out walls before trim installation, then masked walls to spray high gloss oil impervo. NC and repaint require different routes to get the job done and "every job is different" as they say.


As I've posted before, it took us a while to settle on an approach to NC. What we finally settled on was: As soon as GWB was finished, spray primer.; spray lids and closets with two finish coats; spray other walls with one finish coat. 

In the meantime, prime and sand loose base, case, etc. (alkyd enamel undercoater). If possible, spray first coat coat of Impervo or PPG 6-90 on loose trim. 

After the trim is installed, fill, touch sand, caulk and apply finish coats.

Wait until all other trades are finished before applying final coat to walls by brush and roller.

The only difference for stained/varnished trim was to prefinish the case and base completely before installation.


----------



## ridesarize

Gough said:


> As I've posted before, it took us a while to settle on an approach to NC. What we finally settled on was: As soon as GWB was finished, spray primer.; spray lids and closets with two finish coats; spray other walls with one finish coat.
> 
> In the meantime, prime and sand loose base, case, etc. (alkyd enamel undercoater). If possible, spray first coat coat of Impervo or PPG 6-90 on loose trim.
> 
> After the trim is installed, fill, touch sand, caulk and apply finish coats.
> 
> Wait until all other trades are finished before applying final coat to walls by brush and roller.
> 
> The only difference for stained/varnished trim was to prefinish the case and base completely before installation.



As for the walls and ceiling, we have done exactly the same many times, only difference overall is I like to prime and paint the trim in place that way the caulking, and fillers get primed and painted twice. I think the priming in place helps for prepped holes and flush joints, etc.

We would do final wall coat after trim like you stated.
Not arguing or anything at all, just commenting.


----------



## Gough

ridesarize said:


> As for the walls and ceiling, we have done exactly the same many times, only difference overall is I like to prime and paint the trim in place that way the caulking, and fillers get primed and painted twice. I think the priming in place helps for prepped holes and flush joints, etc.
> 
> We would do final wall coat after trim like you stated.
> Not arguing or anything at all, just commenting.


Painted case/base around here is mostly hemlock, at least in the houses we work in. We settled on priming it and then sanding it "on the bench" because of the PITA factor when sanding it _in situ_, especially the more elaborate profiles. As you posted, priming after installation does help at joints, etc., so we sometime end up making a second pass with the primer.


----------



## Vylum

ridesarize said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I tried to answer the direct questions you had. I was not analyzing you or your methods, was I?
> 
> I usually paint trim first like you, but have done millpacks several different routes, and interiors several different routes.... But in my first 6 years we blew out walls before trim installation, then masked walls to spray high gloss oil impervo. NC and repaint require different routes to get the job done and "every job is different" as they say.


hell is a millpack? just googled it and google didnt even know. some of you just like to make things complicated to give yourselves a pat on the back. this place is an echo chamber of "well everyone has their way" rather than the right way. figures though thats painters for you, trying to make simple stuff difficult like taping a ceiling because you cant use a brush, lol. what a pain in the ass. half of you are straight up hacks, id love to paint beside some of you because the way you guys talk you have no a clue what to do


----------



## Vylum

you guys like each others posts back and forth even if its the wrong info. haha funny really


----------



## Gough

Vylum said:


> hell is a millpack? just googled it and google didnt even know. some of you just like to make things complicated to give yourselves a pat on the back. this place is an echo chamber of "well everyone has their way" rather than the right way. figures though thats painters for you, trying to make simple stuff difficult like taping a ceiling because you cant use a brush, lol. what a pain in the ass. half of you are straight up hacks, id love to paint beside some of you because the way you guys talk you have no a clue what to do


Sorry, it's a trade term used in the construction industry, a shortened version of "millwork package". Often, interior painting prices for NC (=New Construction) have two major components: GWB (= Gypsum Wallboard, the panels used for walls and ceilings) and "millpack", the painted or stained/varnished woodwork.

Hope that helps.


----------



## CApainter

I think what we have here, is a mixture of disciplines among the PT membership. And I believe this is the cause of a lot of disagreement.

Those who are more experienced with new construction for example, will have found methods, materials and equipment that make them more competent at that particular discipline than an industrial painter would have, and visa versa.

Now, of course there will be those who think they are competent at NC because they worked on two, or three of them in their entire painting careers. In the same way that a commercial painter might think they are competent in an industrial setting because they painted a new Walmart and IKEA. 

This is why I trust that Gough's, or LPC's methods of painting NC would be far more superior than my own. They have much more experience at it than even my own nearly forty years of painting. Or, that even though I got to be a pretty damn good Wall covering installer, Chrisn would run circles around me. Despite using a walker.


----------



## chrisn

CApainter said:


> I think what we have here, is a mixture of disciplines among the PT membership. And I believe this is the cause of a lot of disagreement.
> 
> Those who are more experienced with new construction for example, will have found methods, materials and equipment that make them more competent at that particular discipline than an industrial painter would have, and visa versa.
> 
> Now, of course there will be those who think they are competent at NC because they worked on two, or three of them in their entire painting careers. In the same way that a commercial painter might think they are competent in an industrial setting because they painted a new Walmart and IKEA.
> 
> This is why I trust that Gough's, or LPC's methods of painting NC would be far more superior than my own. They have much more experience at it than even my own nearly forty years of painting. Or, that even though I got to be a pretty damn good Wall covering installer, Chrisn would run circles around me. Despite using a walker.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Hey now, watch it there bub.


----------



## lilpaintchic

I hate wall paper. Chris could easily paper circles, squares, and triangles around me. With his eyes closed. In the dark. I'd still be sitting rocking back and forth in the fetal position when he finished...lol
There are many here who, as you mentioned CA, come from different disciplines and experiences. That's what I enjoy about this site, the variety. I'm still learning and I appreciate you guys sharing your experiences though I may not necessarily use some methods learned on my specific jobs. There's always that one new thing....and you guys have the solution...and often times you make me laugh so there's that, too.lol


----------



## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> Yes, the 3051 and a replacement (knockoff) for DualTac are available online. The outfit selling the DualTac also has a near-copy of the 3M applicator.


Link?


----------



## lilpaintchic

http://constructionjargon.com/Paint.html

Vylum, this should help.
And btw...C-A-U-L-K....your spelling and context in a previous post was HALARIOUS. (see mods, I was nice.mostly. do I get a gold star today? Or maybe a cookie?)


----------



## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> Link?


I went to The Google, typed in "DualTac" -and looked what popped up:

http://www.dualtactape.com

:whistling2:


----------



## lilpaintchic

Fine, you get a gold star.☆


----------



## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> I went to The Google, typed in "DualTac" -and looked what popped up:
> 
> http://www.dualtactape.com
> 
> :whistling2:


24 rolls are on their way!! Woot!woot!! That stuff is $$ in the bank!


----------



## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> 24 rolls are on their way!! Woot!woot!! That stuff is $$ in the bank!


I don't know about you, but when we started using the DualTac system, we got frustrated trimming the poly. Then we picked up a few of the cheap plastic letter openers:









Works like a charm.


----------



## lilpaintchic

Great idea!


----------



## Vylum

Gough said:


> I don't know about you, but when we started using the DualTac system, we got frustrated trimming the poly. Then we picked up a few of the cheap plastic letter openers:
> 
> 
> Works like a charm.


cool idea but just another thing to fittle around with. keep it simple i say, get good with a blade


----------



## Gough

Vylum said:


> cool idea but just another thing to fittle around with. keep it simple i say, get good with a blade


"...get good with blade..." Seriously?

Just curious, have you used the DualTac system? Are you at all familiar with the specific issue that we're discussing?


----------



## Vylum

Gough said:


> "...get good with blade..." Seriously?
> 
> Just curious, have you used the DualTac system? Are you at all familiar with the specific issue that we're discussing?


yeah dude, and i still hack up the plastic like a professional did years before me. i dont like a truck full of fisher price pelican cases, specialized liners and wooster ankle braces to hall in and out of sites. keep it simple


----------



## Gough

Jmayspaint said:


> I've known a couple guys over the years that paint trim last. My understanding was that technique was a hold over from the days of oil trim paint. When water based paints first became popular for walls, it was kind of a big deal not to get trim paint on the walls (the early latex wouldn't stick to it, and often fish eyed and had other problems) so trim was done last.
> 
> I generally do it just the opposite and don't try to keep trim paint off the walls, cutting or taping the final line with the wall paint.
> 
> Outside of special circumstances, like oil trim paint, I'm not in the camp of cutting in every line. Seems superfluous to me as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for a possible explanation of that archaic practice. :jester:

I think it's also representative of our trade as a whole. There seem to be a lot of operators who do things a certain way only because that's how they learned. 

In our painting business, as well as our others, we make it a point to step back periodically to check our assumptions and stay open to new approaches.

As you posted a little earlier, thinking "outside the brush" can yield amazing results.


----------



## lilpaintchic

Vylum said:


> yeah dude, and i still hack up the plastic like a professional did years before me. i dont like a truck full of fisher price pelican cases, specialized liners and wooster ankle braces to hall in and out of sites. keep it simple


I'm sure that's not the only thing being hacked....


----------



## claudiui

No professional should ever use tape for cutting in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AngieM

I'd agree with you @Vylum , but then we'd both be wrong. Or like my dad says, I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you. 

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## SemiproJohn

claudiui said:


> No professional should ever use tape for cutting in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Alrighty then.


----------



## Jmayspaint

claudiui said:


> No professional should ever use tape for cutting in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Of course not. The point of taping is so you don't have to cut in. Doing both would just be a waste of time 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter

Gough said:


> Thanks for a possible explanation of that archaic practice.
> 
> I think it's also representative of our trade as a whole. There seem to be a lot of operators who do things a certain way only because that's how they learned.
> 
> In our painting business, as well as our others, we make it a point to step back periodically to check our assumptions and stay open to new approaches.
> 
> As you posted a little earlier, thinking "outside the brush" can yield amazing results.


Even as a moderator, you're going to continue denigrating career painters who don't subscribe to your methods? Not that it makes a difference to those of us who've managed to make a pretty good living out of this paint thing. But the inability to extend a little courtesy surprises me. I mean, it's not like a painter who prefers painting trim last, is undermining the industry.

And Frankly, if you've had to paint textured walls, you'd appreciate why there are painters who would prefer cutting in trim last.


----------



## chrisn

claudiui said:


> No professional should ever use tape for cutting in.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


and there you are, close this thread


----------



## mattpaints82

chrisn said:


> and there you are, close this thread


Thats a start.. then id pull out the ban hammer on a couple of these fools. :ban::ban::2guns::2guns:


----------



## Gough

CApainter said:


> Even as a moderator, you're going to continue denigrating career painters who don't subscribe to your methods? Not that it makes a difference to those of us who've managed to make a pretty good living out of this paint thing. But the inability to extend a little courtesy surprises me. I mean, it's not like a painter who prefers painting trim last, is undermining the industry.
> 
> And Frankly, if you've had to paint textured walls, you'd appreciate why there are painters who would prefer cutting in trim last.


Sorry, CA, I should have added a jester emoji or used my _sarcastic_ font. I didn't mean to be discourteous, I was just poking the bear.

And Frankly, *all* the walls in the Inland Northwest are textured*

*OK, so that may be a bit hyperbolic, but not by much. The question is almost never whether the walls are textured or smooth, but just how nasty the texture is.

I'd like to see a thread about the corners of accent walls with heavy orange peel.


----------



## PACman

I had to check out this thread because hey, it's been going on a while and I couldn't understand why. Seems it;s just the same old bs.


----------



## CApainter

Gough said:


> Sorry, CA, I should have added a jester emoji or used my _sarcastic_ font. I didn't mean to be discourteous, I was just poking the bear.
> 
> And Frankly, *all* the walls in the Inland Northwest are textured*
> 
> *OK, so that may be a bit hyperbolic, but not by much. The question is almost never whether the walls are textured or smooth, but just how nasty the texture is.
> 
> I'd like to see a thread about the corners of accent walls with heavy orange peel.


Just to be fair, a lot of textured walls around here are generally sprayed after the trim. But that's usually on NC, or something empty. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time in the repaint market, where it was just easier to brush and roll around covered furniture than it would be to hang plastic , tape trim, etc.


----------



## Gough

CApainter said:


> Just to be fair, a lot of textured walls around here are generally sprayed after the trim. But that's usually on NC, or something empty. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time in the repaint market, where it was just easier to brush and roll around covered furniture than it would be to hang plastic , tape trim, etc.


Somewhere upstream in this now-epic thread, I think I made a post about only taping trim "to cut to" on about 10% of our projects...At least, I think it was in this thread. For 10+ years, we've focused on resi repaints; it's probably been 12 years since we used an airless on an interior.

Even when we were doing NC, the last coat on the walls was brush/roll, because we were the last trade on the job...on purpose.

As an aside, the combination of textured walls and the newer, heavy-bodied acrylics has driven us to use stiffer and stiffer brushes for cutting in.


----------



## Jmayspaint

PACman said:


> I had to check out this thread because hey, it's been going on a while and I couldn't understand why. Seems it;s just the same old bs.




Well sure, but we have a few new participants in the BS fest. That's what makes it interesting. 

If we didn't return to the same topics over and over again, PT would be a desolate place indeed. After all, there's only so many topics to discuss in the realm of coatings application. 

I for one appreciate the new input. Even if we have heard it all (in some variation) before. You never know when some random post might change your thoughts on a given issue, perhaps for the better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ridesarize

When spraying trim first, I find the orange peel drywall texture gives you more tolerance with the overspray pattern than what smooth wall does.


----------



## Vylum

yeah but textured walls looks ugly anyway so who cares what the paint looks like


----------



## PACman

Textured walls are quite predominant in some areas of the country. I don't think painters in those areas actually have a choice whether they have to paint them or not. I don't think you'll find a smooth wall on a home newer then 1980 or so anywhere in the Los Angeles metro area. It there is, they paid top dollar for it!


----------



## PACman

Here's a question I have regarding cutting in that I don't think i have ever seen on PT. When you brush your cuts, do you run the brush parallel to the corner or edge line or do you run it perpendicular to the line? I know what the brush manufacturers engineer their brushes to do, but I'm curious to see how the majority of you do it. As far as field application I don't really think there is a wrong answer, as I myself have used both methods depending on the situation. I'm just curious as to if there is a predominant method.


----------



## CApainter

Always perpendicular for me. Otherwise, I'd only be using the last two brush hairs to cut in. But I could see that if you're taping it doesn't matter.


----------



## Gough

PACman said:


> Textured walls are quite predominant in some areas of the country. I don't think painters in those areas actually have a choice whether they have to paint them or not. I don't think you'll find a smooth wall on a home newer then 1980 or so anywhere in the Los Angeles metro area. It there is, they paid top dollar for it!


I remember the ONE new home we did that didn't have textured walls. The clients were nice enough people, but had worked at being "informed consumers" and had just enough knowledge make them PITAs.

Among the many issues that came up was the upcharge for smooth-wall GWB. They freaked out over that, couldn't understand why that we cost more. In their minds, smooth wall should be cheaper, since it eliminates the texturing step....

I've never worked on a job with so many Emily Litella Moments. One of them would freak out about some aspect of the project. After we calmed them down, and showed them that, for instance, we didn't use the wrong paint, but that a deep red carpet in a room actually does make the white walls look pink, there came the inevitable, "Never mind!"


----------



## Vylum

PACman said:


> Here's a question I have regarding cutting in that I don't think i have ever seen on PT. When you brush your cuts, do you run the brush parallel to the corner or edge line or do you run it perpendicular to the line? I know what the brush manufacturers engineer their brushes to do, but I'm curious to see how the majority of you do it. As far as field application I don't really think there is a wrong answer, as I myself have used both methods depending on the situation. I'm just curious as to if there is a predominant method.


i dont know what you mean but im stoned so it might be me.


----------



## Wildbill7145

Vylum said:


> i dont know what you mean but im stoned so it might be me.


This explains a lot of things. Others, I'd already figured out.


----------



## Wildbill7145

PACman said:


> Here's a question I have regarding cutting in that I don't think i have ever seen on PT. When you brush your cuts, do you run the brush parallel to the corner or edge line or do you run it perpendicular to the line? I know what the brush manufacturers engineer their brushes to do, but I'm curious to see how the majority of you do it. As far as field application I don't really think there is a wrong answer, as I myself have used both methods depending on the situation. I'm just curious as to if there is a predominant method.


I think I'm at around 45 degrees. Or so.


----------



## Gough

Wildbill7145 said:


> I think I'm at around 45 degrees. Or so.


But that's in degrees C(anadian), right?


----------



## PACman

Vylum said:


> i dont know what you mean but im stoned so it might be me.


Ok let me try this- like dude, do you put the brush with the pointy part pointing at the corner? Or like, the other way? dude.


----------



## PACman

Gough said:


> But that's in degrees C(anadian), right?


Like dude...what is that in like.....in real degrees dude?


----------



## PACman

I've been told in the past that using the brush one way (not saying which) causes the hairs to break and fall out faster.


----------



## Wildbill7145

pacman said:


> like dude...what is that in like.....in real degrees dude?


420

.


----------



## Gough

PACman said:


> Like dude...what is that in like.....in real degrees dude?


Let's see, in Liberia, Myanmar, and the US, that would be...

| -40-45 |=85 The number of degrees above -40*

85 x 9/5 = 85/5 x 9 = 17 x 9 = 153 Convert to number of degrees F above -40

153-40= 113 F Convert to temperature in degrees F.


*113 F*

*These calculations use the fact that -40 C = -40 F


----------



## Wildbill7145

Gough said:


> Let's see, in Liberia, Myanmar, and the US, that would be...
> 
> | -40-45 |=85 The number of degrees above -40*
> 
> 85 x 9/5 = 85/5 x 9 = 17 x 9 = 153 Convert to number of degrees F above -40
> 
> 153-40= 113 F Convert to temperature in degrees F.
> 
> 
> *113 F*
> 
> *These calculations use the fact that -40 C = -40 F


Glad you guys kept it simple. :blink:


----------



## Vylum

im at about 20 degree. directly parallel you arnt using your edge, perpendicular you wont be able to drag a long section or your cut is too wide. if its a butch corner i make my own line by easing off my angle, running the brush more parallel because i cant rely on the tip of the brush as much


----------



## Gough

Wildbill7145 said:


> Glad you guys kept it simple. :blink:


Actually, it's a lot easier, and less ambiguous, than the conventionally taught method. You can easily do it in your head.

I learned it from Dirty Ernie, a post-doc, back in grad school...43 years ago. Never went back to the +32 or -32 version.


----------



## Gough

vylum said:


> im at about 20 degree. Directly parallel you arnt using your edge, perpendicular you wont be able to drag a long section or your cut is too wide. If its a butch corner i make my own line by easing off my angle, running the brush more parallel because i cant rely on the tip of the brush as much


nttawwt


----------



## PACman

Gough said:


> Let's see, in Liberia, Myanmar, and the US, that would be...
> 
> | -40-45 |=85 The number of degrees above -40*
> 
> 85 x 9/5 = 85/5 x 9 = 17 x 9 = 153 Convert to number of degrees F above -40
> 
> 153-40= 113 F Convert to temperature in degrees F.
> 
> 
> *113 F*
> 
> *These calculations use the fact that -40 C = -40 F


Yup. US, Liberia, and Myanmar! We homies bra!


----------



## PACman

Vylum said:


> im at about 20 degree. directly parallel you arnt using your edge, perpendicular you wont be able to drag a long section or your cut is too wide. if its a butch corner i make my own line by easing off my angle, running the brush more parallel because i cant rely on the tip of the brush as much


ok. buzz wear off did it?


----------



## The Cutting Edge

I gotta say Vylum you're really starting to grow on me. When you first started posting I just couldn't stand you. Now I find myself coming home from work and searching to see what crazy thing you said today.


----------



## Vylum

PACman said:


> ok. buzz wear off did it?


yes, not for long though. about to go back under



The Cutting Edge said:


> I gotta say Vylum you're really starting to grow on me. When you first started posting I just couldn't stand you. Now I find myself coming home from work and searching to see what crazy thing you said today.


ha thanks, appreciate the words. im sure it will be a love hate until the mods inevitably see me out


----------



## RH

Vylum said:


> yes, not for long though. about to go back under
> 
> 
> ha thanks, appreciate the words. im sure it will be a love hate until the mods inevitably see me out


Why inevitably? All ya' have to do is follow the rules and play nice and you can continue to participate.


----------



## chrisn

Vylum said:


> yes, not for long though. about to go back under
> 
> 
> ha thanks, appreciate the words. im sure it will be a love hate until the mods inevitably see me out


Be a man and give up your rewards points:thumbup:

ALL of you should be doing this:thumbsup:


----------



## PACman

RH said:


> Why inevitably? All ya' have to do is follow the rules and play nice and you can continue to participate.


yeah. They haven't banned me yet! YET!


----------



## Gough

PACman said:


> yeah. They haven't banned me yet! YET!


"The day ain't over."

-Curly ("City Slickers")


----------



## slinger58

chrisn said:


> Be a man and give up your rewards points:thumbup:
> 
> ALL of you should be doing this:thumbsup:


Nag, nag, nag. Lol

Thanks for the reminder.:thumbsup:


----------



## Wildbill7145

slinger58 said:


> Nag, nag, nag. Lol
> 
> Thanks for the reminder.:thumbsup:


Another 124 added to the pile.


----------



## PACman

when is the deadline to give the rewards points? I want to wait a while longer so I don't have to do it a third time!


----------



## CApainter

PACman said:


> when is the deadline to give the rewards points? I want to wait a while longer so I don't have to do it a third time!


Wow! three times! You must really, really be a good person! I'm going to wait until my selfish behavior climaxes. Then I'll think of dumping my rewards. Just like that outcast bad boy without a heart that we all love and adore, who suddenly becomes the hero with his generosity. Grown men cry over that stuff.


----------



## slinger58

PACman said:


> when is the deadline to give the rewards points? I want to wait a while longer so I don't have to do it a third time!





CApainter said:


> Wow! three times! You must really, really be a good person! I'm going to wait until my selfish behavior climaxes. Then I'll think of dumping my rewards. Just like that outcast bad boy without a heart that we all love and adore, who suddenly becomes the hero with his generosity. Grown men cry over that stuff.


December 5 is the deadline to donate, I think. Between CA and PAC they have 3260 points. As per CA's wish, I shall cry a whole river of tears and chrisn will post a link to Eric Clapton's song "River of Tears". Just do it fellas. :thumbup:


----------



## chrisn

I'll just do it now, maybe it will stir a couple guys up enough to do what's right.:yes:


----------



## Wildbill7145

RH has two holes dug if this doesn't happen. They're pretty deep. Seemed pretty serious about it. I usually thought he was a funny guy, then he looked at me and said:

"You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fracked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to frackin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?"

He's a good fella in general though, so I just laughed and walked away. Cautiously.


----------



## Gough

Wildbill7145 said:


> RH has two holes dug if this doesn't happen. They're pretty deep. Seemed pretty serious about it. I usually thought he was a funny guy, then he looked at me and said:
> 
> "You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fracked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to frackin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?"
> 
> He's a good fella in general though, so I just laughed and walked away. Cautiously.



???????


----------



## AngieM

Am I right, you don't accrue points using an app like tapatalk

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Wildbill7145

Gough said:


> ???????


I'm guessing you've never seen Good Fellas.


----------



## Gough

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm guessing you've never seen Good Fellas.


Just once, long, long ago.


----------



## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> I went to The Google, typed in "DualTac" -and looked what popped up:
> 
> http://www.dualtactape.com
> 
> :whistling2:


Guess what came in the mail yesterday, woot, woot!! Customized a hand masker today, gonna give it a go on Monday. I'll post pics of this particular project which is wayyyyyy out of the norm for us. It's smurfy blue. With smurfyier blue doors. The walls and doors got shot today. We'll be bagging for lids on Monday. Shoot lids, unwrap and move on to kitchen and bath. Once those are done we're on our way out the door, be back after flooring to reinstall hardware and doors, touch up and done!


----------



## RH

Wildbill7145 said:


> RH has two holes dug if this doesn't happen. They're pretty deep. Seemed pretty serious about it. I usually thought he was a funny guy, then he looked at me and said:
> 
> "You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fracked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to frackin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?"
> 
> He's a good fella in general though, so I just laughed and walked away. Cautiously.


 "Ya mother******! I almost had ya, I almost had ya."


----------



## Eagle Cap Painter

lilpaintchic said:


> Guess what came in the mail yesterday, woot, woot!! Customized a hand masker today, gonna give it a go on Monday. I'll post pics of this particular project which is wayyyyyy out of the norm for us. It's smurfy blue. With smurfyier blue doors. The walls and doors got shot today. We'll be bagging for lids on Monday. Shoot lids, unwrap and move on to kitchen and bath. Once those are done we're on our way out the door, be back after flooring to reinstall hardware and doors, touch up and done!


The masker in that thumbnail looks suspiciously like a 3M Blue hand masker, which I found to be cheap trash. The blade/bar kept falling apart when using 9-inch or larger paper and was generally a headache.


----------



## lilpaintchic

Right so I'm using ole yella tried and true, whacking the blade down to about 6"...the blue one is for ho's who don't know any better...lol thanks for the tip!
Didn't get into it today...it's trying to snow here and the dehumidifiers working overtime to get us dried out....fingers crossed we can bag tomorrow. We did get some gawd awful greens up today...you guys are gonna have a hay day when I get pics up..


----------



## lilpaintchic




----------



## lilpaintchic




----------



## lilpaintchic

Humidity was killing us and a bit of the tape blew out between coats in a few areas..kind of a bummer, but not a big deal compared to the amount of time we saved doing it this way....

Smurfylicious!


----------



## PRC

lilpaintchic said:


>


Is that tape wrapped around the end of the blade? As a guard to keep it from scratching walls?


----------



## lilpaintchic

To keep from scratching me!! 

I clipped it with tin snips and filed it down a bit but it's still sharp enough to ruin someone's day...


----------



## lilpaintchic

Still working on what would make a good stop for the dual tack...we have it taped at the moment, but I think a little piece of pvc or better yet, rubber...ooohhh, maybe rubber bands would work! I need a block that stops the red tape about 3/4 in off the masking frame...so that tge 1 1/2 catches it just right but doesn't impede movement...
Also, when the red gets down to about 1/4 roll left, it's trash. It screws up the other tape....all in all, not quite as good as the old 3m stuff, but worth every dime I've got into it.


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## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> Still working on what would make a good stop for the dual tack...we have it taped at the moment, but I think a little piece of pvc or better yet, rubber...ooohhh, maybe rubber bands would work! I need a block that stops the red tape about 3/4 in off the masking frame...so that tge 1 1/2 catches it just right but doesn't impede movement...
> Also, when the red gets down to about 1/4 roll left, it's trash. It screws up the other tape....all in all, not quite as good as the old 3m stuff, but worth every dime I've got into it.


I don't like the original 3M dispenser either, but I remember seeing a post online about someone hacking one of the regular maskers to work.


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## lilpaintchic

Link?  lol


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## Gough

lilpaintchic said:


> Link?  lol


I did a quick Google search and came up empty...other than a few old PT posts about the same thing.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

lilpaintchic said:


>


Hey LPC, do you have problems with the wall plastic wanting to balloon out from the airless blast? If walls are gonna get painted anyways, a quick spray of low-tack spray adhesive in the corners helps a lot. If walls aren't to be painted, sometimes I'll even cut plastic at the corners so I can tape plastic to walls from floor to ceiling. In those rare instances where it's a real problem and the plastic still wants to give, I'll even take off the electrical plates before bagging walls, then screw some temp plates on the electrical receptacles & light switches. Nothing ground-breaking here. You probably already knew anyway.


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## lilpaintchic

Those are some helpful insights!
Personally, I use tape balls (or loops-whatever ya wanna call em) If it's an issue (or if I'm planning to stick a fan on it) .stick 3 or 4 to the wall at the bottom then stick the plastic to it.
Doesn't the spray adhesive screw up the paint on a freshly painted surface? Been wanting to try it (then I forget to buy it) but I am concerned with that aspect...


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## lilpaintchic

Gough said:


> I did a quick Google search and came up empty...other than a few old PT posts about the same thing.


That's all I found too...I'm gonna stick a hair tie or a couple rubber bands around it to see if that'll shim it out better than the tape we have now...
And have you struggled with 1 1/2 on it? Wondering if I need to drop to 1in...never buy the stuff but will if it makes it easier.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

lilpaintchic said:


> Those are some helpful insights!
> Personally, I use tape balls (or loops-whatever ya wanna call em) If it's an issue (or if I'm planning to stick a fan on it) .stick 3 or 4 to the wall at the bottom then stick the plastic to it.
> Doesn't the spray adhesive screw up the paint on a freshly painted surface? Been wanting to try it (then I forget to buy it) but I am concerned with that aspect...


I wouldn't spray the adhesive on freshly painted walls. I only use it if walls are to be painted but haven't yet been done. Low-tack is the key. No Super 77.


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## lilpaintchic

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I wouldn't spray the adhesive on freshly painted walls. I only use it if walls are to be painted but haven't yet been done. Low-tack is the key. No Super 77.


That make a whole lot more sense..


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## jason123

My big thing with tape is back in the day it was " I don't use tape at all" throughout the years I have found sometimes when tape will make the job go faster. so I try to do what's best for the job.


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## PRC

lilpaintchic said:


> Still working on what would make a good stop for the dual tack...we have it taped at the moment, but I think a little piece of pvc or better yet, rubber...ooohhh, maybe rubber bands would work! I need a block that stops the red tape about 3/4 in off the masking frame...so that tge 1 1/2 catches it just right but doesn't impede movement...
> Also, when the red gets down to about 1/4 roll left, it's trash. It screws up the other tape....all in all, not quite as good as the old 3m stuff, but worth every dime I've got into it.


I would try cutting the core of masking paper to the right size spacer.


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## lilpaintchic

PRC said:


> I would try cutting the core of masking paper to the right size spacer.


Great idea! Sometimes I get to (over)thinking about something and forget the obvious. Thank you. I'll let ya know how it goes...


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## AngieM

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Hey LPC, do you have problems with the wall plastic wanting to balloon out from the airless blast? If walls are gonna get painted anyways, a quick spray of low-tack spray adhesive in the corners helps a lot. If walls aren't to be painted, sometimes I'll even cut plastic at the corners so I can tape plastic to walls from floor to ceiling. In those rare instances where it's a real problem and the plastic still wants to give, I'll even take off the electrical plates before bagging walls, then screw some temp plates on the electrical receptacles & light switches. Nothing ground-breaking here. You probably already knew anyway.


I use a staple gun and staple through a paint stir stick at the base and corners to keep the plastic from bubbling up. Works great! 

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## DJL

I use masking tape sometimes. I used it in my own house because I have pella wood interior windows and wanted to keep the wood on the sash's and windows but white paint on moldings and jamb, the only way possible to get a perfectly straight line in this scenario was tape, and then sometimes people want stripes and other weird stuff, I always either use a water based clear coat over the tape first or I use the color of what I am taping off (taping off white moldings to paint blue wall then lightly seal the edge of the tape with the same white paint as moldings and let it dry), this will give you a 100% crisp clean line.


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## APP_804

Jmayspaint said:


> The master bedroom in that condo had a three tiered tray ceiling with crown at each level. After spraying the trim I was looking at it thinking "it's going to take forever to mask all that, maybe I should just hand paint it". Even to just spray the ceiling parts, I would have to mask the top and bottom edges of the crown. Seemed like a lot to do and I had almost convinced myself it would be faster to just cut it in.
> 
> But no, there's no way it would have been. With two coats to go on the ceilings and walls, that would have been a lot of lines to cut. Lot of trips around the room. So I started masking and two and a half hours later it was ready.
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> Sprayed out the ceilings, painted the walls and finished that room myself in a day (while also running crew in the rest of the house). I'm glad I didn't talk myself into cutting all that in.
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> I enjoy cutting in myself and understand the pride most painters take in their brush work. At one time, I also scoffed at the idea of using tape to make lines. I've evolved, and learning to use tape effectively has dramatically increased efficiency and profits.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




How did you keep the wall paint from getting on the tray ceiling on the different levels?


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## Vylum

APP_804 said:


> How did you keep the wall paint from getting on the tray ceiling on the different levels?


pretty sure he cut all the wall paint you see

id cut that in believe it or not, maybe in part im way better with the brush than i am masking. i wouldnt knock taping that though


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