# Behr!!!



## Rcon

Okay, the dirty word, BEHR. We can all agree it's crap. If you can't agree with that assessment, you shouldn't post in this thread. 

Since I don't even like typing the name of that paint for fear of it delaminating my keyboard, I will simply call it, "it" for this thread. 

I have read a few threads on here about it, and more than a few threads about it on the DIY forum. Nobody has a good experience with it. It doesn't hide anything, it has constant failures and adhesion issues, it peels, blisters and chips easily. So why the f**k are people using it??? Why hasn't it been pulled from the shelves? 

The DIY on the other forums always find that forum after using it, because they are having issues with it. So I also have to wonder, is it truly "just" the crappy paint, or is it also that the people they market it to (their target market) are the hopelessly oblivious and numb minded (i.e. people who couldn't make a wall look good with the best of paints)? 

I am confused as to how any product with such a horrible reputation can still sell, when it is clearly not only inferior, but complete and utter garbage.


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## Picky Painter

I had to use some a few summers back on a 130 year old victorian(a house not a woman) exterior and it still looks fine, perhaps its the DIY user that exacerbates the bad reputation even further.


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## Wolfgang

Oh boy, another Behr bashing thread....
I'd be willing to bet I could find crap paint in just about any manufacturers line. If you dont like it, dont use it.


I just get real tired of reading these bashing threads on a professional forum.


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## Rcon

Wolfgang said:


> Oh boy, another Behr bashing thread....
> I'd be willing to bet I could find crap paint in just about any manufacturers line. If you dont like it, dont use it.
> 
> 
> I just get real tired of reading these bashing threads on a professional forum.


I'm not just bashing it, i'm asking for an explaination. 

What i'm saying is - if it's really that bad, why is anyone still using it? 

I'd like to know. 

I don't think it's unprofessional to ask why so many people use a product that professionals consider inferior. This is a forum for professional painters, I can think of no better place to ask such a question.


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## Wolfgang

Marketing. HD has alot of stores and spends big bucks on advertising.

Convenience. Easier for the HO to find and buy.

Name Recognition. Behr puts their name out there for the consumer to see, ie; commercials, home improvement shows, etc..

Pricing. Their pricing is consistent. People feel they are getting a quality product at a fair price. I dont feel that way, but then Behr doesnt really market to the pro's do they?

I'm not a big fan of Behr myself, but there are worse paints out there. I think as a professional you should be able to apply just about any product with acceptable results. It may take another coat, you might have to tweak it, but you should be able to apply it.

If you've done any amount of insurance restoration business you'll find that you have to use their PSP accounts at the box stores...no choice. So yeah, I've used alot of Behr in these circumstances over the years. I've had to make adjustments in using it, but that's how it goes.

I just booked my last ins. resto job, it will keep 2-3 guys busy through the last week of January. On this particular job, I can use any products I want as it's a different ins. company, but even if it was a PSP, I wouldnt have turned it down as this one is a money maker....and not all of them are.

Like I said, there are worse paints out there.


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## Wolfgang

And I'm not bustin on ya Rcon, not really my "style". But, I have yet to find a painter who can walk into a house done by a professional and tell me what paint, stain, finish was used just by looking at it as far as manufacturers are concerned.


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## jack pauhl

Which BEHR product are you specifically talking about? BEHR makes quite a few. Let me know and I will take that product straight off the store shelf, use it and tell you all about it right down to the batch number used.

Ill grab it in white and paint it over any color you like... black? red? How about painting an exterior door red? Thats always a great test on coverage. Or maybe paint a bedroom red? How many coats of red would you say grabs your approval?

I've been testing paints and products forever it seems and I can tell you that there are (few) products worth anything on the market. Very few. What that means is near all or most or at least all manufacturers have poor products.

The bottom line is what I can do with a can of paint will never be what you can do with it no matter who's label is on it. 

Let me know, Ill grab a gallon of BEHR today.


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## Wolfgang

Well Jack, you just opened up a whole can of worms.


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## jack pauhl

Wolfgang said:


> Well Jack, you just opened up a whole can of worms.


well good morning Wolf! I'm sittin here with my coffee and a loaded gun so-to-speak. I take it while its good, probably another BEHR lock down thread but I try.

I've been meaning to paint the office so this is how I get motivated.


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## Wolfgang

Havent heard from you in a while. Hope you're doing good. I dont think you're going to change any perceptions around here concerning this but I know you arent going to back down either. Hopefully it will all be kept civil and professional.


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## chrisn

jack pauhl said:


> well good morning Wolf! I'm sittin here with my coffee and a loaded gun so-to-speak. I take it while its good, probably another BEHR lock down thread but I try.
> 
> I've been meaning to paint the office so this is how I get motivated.[/quote]
> 
> 
> Go get your free Behr and get started.:notworthy:


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## chrisn

jack pauhl said:


> Which BEHR product are you specifically talking about? BEHR makes quite a few. Let me know and I will take that product straight off the store shelf, use it and tell you all about it right down to the batch number used.
> 
> Ill grab it in white and paint it over any color you like... black? red? How about painting an exterior door red? Thats always a great test on coverage. Or maybe paint a bedroom red? How many coats of red would you say grabs your approval?
> 
> I've been testing paints and products forever it seems and I can tell you that there are (few) products worth anything on the market. Very few. What that means is near all or most or at least all manufacturers have poor products.
> 
> The bottom line is what I can do with a can of paint will never be what you can do with it no matter who's label is on it.
> 
> Let me know, Ill grab a gallon of BEHR today.


 
The paint GOD has spoken( modestly,I must say) Take heed all painters of the earth!


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## Wolfgang

And so it begins.............................................


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## nEighter

you would be wasting your time with the exterior stuff. really we are pros and can make an inferior paint look the best it can.


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## y.painting

Rcon said:


> I have read a few threads on here about it, and more than a few threads about it on the DIY forum. Nobody has a good experience with it. It doesn't hide anything, it has constant failures and adhesion issues, it peels, blisters and chips easily. So why the f**k are people using it??? Why hasn't it been pulled from the shelves?


You don't hear anyone (especially DIYs) posting anything positive abut Behr for the same reason you don't hear anyone who has just painted their room with Aura posting raving reviews of how well it covered and how it's not peeling.

People typically don't post when a product does what it's supposed to do (except when they're reviewing products, like JP does).

I suspect that Behr works "well enough" for most homeowners who paint once every 5-10 years. So, most homeowners don't see failure often enough, don't complain, and Behr's sales aren't really hurt.


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## johnpaint

I think Behr has more of a plastic look and feel as you are painting it or looking at it dry.But really, it reminds me of SW pro classic.That's why I don't use either one.


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## bikerboy

Rcon said:


> Okay, the dirty word, BEHR. We can all agree it's crap. If you can't agree with that assessment, you shouldn't post in this thread.


Guess I can't post here. ​


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## Workaholic

It's kind of comical that if you put the word behr in the title thread it will end up being multiple pages at a rapid pace. 

behr is not the best paint but it is pushed for diy and not pushed for the average painting professional that is not really just a handyman that can buy his paint, light fixtures, wood and plumbing supplies at the same register on the same trip. 

I have used it before and it is not my ideal choice but I made it look good, got paid and moved on just as all of you have I am sure. 
There biggest thing they have working against them is consistant service and knowledgeable employees that will be able to offer knowledge to the products they sell.
I truely believe that if behr was sold out of a paint store or ace hardware that they would not have a bashing mob following them everytime their name is mentioned, but the big box store that is hated by so many has put them into a certain catagory. 
That and they do not really care if we professionals buy their products because they like how diy people shop such as over buying, multiple trips back to said store to purchase more products than intended and most can not tell if a product performs well or not. 

Bottom line is try and educate your customers that you buy your products from a reputable paint store where they stand behind their products and they know the limitations of said product and will offer suggestions as to what will work better for the job not just say yeah it will work for you. And when the next time you find yourself using behr just charge accordingly and make it look good and leave the customer feeling good about the job. 
Be sure when you leave that you let them know on the next job you do for them you will provide the material and save them the hassle of it all.


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## Wolfgang

^^^^ Yeah....what he said.:yes:


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## Rcon

jack pauhl said:


> Which BEHR product are you specifically talking about? BEHR makes quite a few. Let me know and I will take that product straight off the store shelf, use it and tell you all about it right down to the batch number used.
> 
> Ill grab it in white and paint it over any color you like... black? red? How about painting an exterior door red? Thats always a great test on coverage. Or maybe paint a bedroom red? How many coats of red would you say grabs your approval?
> 
> I've been testing paints and products forever it seems and I can tell you that there are (few) products worth anything on the market. Very few. What that means is near all or most or at least all manufacturers have poor products.
> 
> *The bottom line is what I can do with a can of paint will never be what you can do with it no matter who's label is on it. *
> 
> Let me know, Ill grab a gallon of BEHR today.


This is a challenge I am willing to accept. Let me know what particular product you use for reds and I will get a sheet of raw drywall, prime it white, and put your paint against my 'standard' brand, 2 coats, and see what happens, if for no other reason than to see for myself what all the fuss is about. 

Not being sarcastic - I have a few days off so why not :thumbup:


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## RCP

Sounds like a great idea for a video from both of you!


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## Rcon

RCP said:


> Sounds like a great idea for a video from both of you!


I don't have video capabilities on my camera, but i'm definitely going to photo-document the whole thing!


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## RCP

Photos work, here is one of SW Accent Paint 1 coat Grey primer and 1 coat Red.


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## Rcon

RCP said:


> Photos work, here is one of SW Accent Paint 1 coat Grey primer and 1 coat Red.


Very nice! Great hide from 1 topcoat!!


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## Rcon

So I went to HD, and told the paint person that I was going to perform some tests on their Behr paints. I explained that I was painting a new drywall substrate, red over white primer. She first tried to sell me Behr Premuim Plus Ultra, and said not to use a primer. I explained once again the test would be red over white primer, so she suggested these products which I purchased for the tests. 

I intend to put these through a myriad of tests, every one I can think of. 

I'll keep posting as I go, and i'll keep the tests and results unbiased. 

Let the games begin! :thumbup:


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## chrisn

Rcon said:


> So I went to HD, and told the paint person that I was going to perform some tests on their Behr paints. I explained that I was painting a new drywall substrate, red over white primer. She first tried to sell me Behr Premuim Plus Ultra, and said not to use a primer. I explained once again the test would be red over white primer, so she suggested these products which I purchased for the tests.
> 
> I intend to put these through a myriad of tests, every one I can think of.
> 
> I'll keep posting as I go, and i'll keep the tests and results unbiased.
> 
> Let the games begin! :thumbup:


 
Good for you,I cannot wait to see the results.


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## RCP

Spray, Brush and Roll!:thumbup:


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## boman47k

Oops


I have no dog in this race, the *thank you* was by accident. Still getting used ro rhis labtop from Santa. Sorry.


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## BillyB

Rcon said:


> So I went to HD, and told the paint person that I was going to perform some tests on their Behr paints. I explained that I was painting a new drywall substrate, red over white primer. She first tried to sell me Behr Premuim Plus Ultra, and said not to use a primer. I explained once again the test would be red over white primer, so she suggested these products which I purchased for the tests.
> 
> I intend to put these through a myriad of tests, every one I can think of.
> 
> I'll keep posting as I go, and i'll keep the tests and results unbiased.
> 
> Let the games begin! :thumbup:


Well, your going to have to go back to HD and ask for the *tinted primer* that Behr recommends you use under that problematic red. Who recommends *white primer* under reds, yellows, and greens? Not Behr. Behr has a specific *tinted primer formula* for *every* problematic color in their color selection(reds,greens,yellows). It basically takes a little bit of the colorant formula from your color and puts it in the primer. Just think, if you take some of the colorant thats in your selected color and put it into the primer, don't you think it will get you to your color faster and easier? It works, and all the tinted primer formulas are in the computers at HD. Its amazing what happens when you follow manufacturers recommendations!
Whats the point of taking a gallon of red colorant and spreading it out over bright white?? You'll prove how poorly red colorant covers? Who cares. Do a test on the *right way* to get great results when using problematic colors. Now that would be helpful. 
You can learn a lot if you *ask* the manufactures questions about their products. I've called the number on top of the Behr Can to get advice on how to use their products(like bright reds). That goes for BM also. Instead of bashing the Aura, I talk to the manufacturer about it. Now it's working better for me. It's amazing what you can learn if you make an effort instead of blindly bashing products. The worse thing you can do is to continue doing the same things you've been doing the last 40 years. Times have changed, time to learn a few new tricks and catch up with the products and technology thats out there. AND READ DIRECTIONS FROM THE MANUFACTURERS!
By the way, you should have taken her advice and bought the ULTRA. The stuff is pretty good, the way it covers(because of automotive grade colorants) and performs will save you a lot of time. 
*No*, I don't work for Behr. I have a long history with using their products and have taken the time to speak with their technical service people and local reps on how to properly use them. And for those that think Behr does not take care of the Pro contractor...I have my local Reps personal cell phone number, I get 20% off the shelf price that the DIY pays at HD, they tint my paint at *their* factory and deliver to *my* job site for *free*(no trip to HD paint department), free shirts- fan decks- hats- buckets and more. Best of all, they* listen* to what I have to say.


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## Rcon

BillyB said:


> Well, your going to have to go back to HD and ask for the *tinted primer* that Behr recommends you use under that problematic red. Who recommends *white primer* under reds, yellows, and greens? Not Behr. Behr has a specific *tinted primer formula* for *every* problematic color in their color selection(reds,greens,yellows). It basically takes a little bit of the colorant formula from your color and puts it in the primer. Just think, if you take some of the colorant thats in your selected color and put it into the primer, don't you think it will get you to your color faster and easier? It works, and all the tinted primer formulas are in the computers at HD. Its amazing what happens when you follow manufacturers recommendations!
> Whats the point of taking a gallon of red colorant and spreading it out over bright white?? You'll prove how poorly red colorant covers? Who cares. Do a test on the *right way* to get great results when using problematic colors. Now that would be helpful.
> You can learn a lot if you *ask* the manufactures questions about their products. I've called the number on top of the Behr Can to get advice on how to use their products(like bright reds). That goes for BM also. Instead of bashing the Aura, I talk to the manufacturer about it. Now it's working better for me. It's amazing what you can learn if you make an effort instead of blindly bashing products. The worse thing you can do is to continue doing the same things you've been doing the last 40 years. Times have changed, time to learn a few new tricks and catch up with the products and technology thats out there. AND READ DIRECTIONS FROM THE MANUFACTURERS!
> By the way, you should have taken her advice and bought the ULTRA. The stuff is pretty good, the way it covers(because of automotive grade colorants) and performs will save you a lot of time.
> *No*, I don't work for Behr. I have a long history with using their products and have taken the time to speak with their technical service people and local reps on how to properly use them. And for those that think Behr does not take care of the Pro contractor...I have my local Reps personal cell phone number, I get 20% off the shelf price that the DIY pays at HD, they tint my paint at *their* factory and deliver to *my* job site for *free*(no trip to HD paint department), free shirts- fan decks- hats- buckets and more. Best of all, they* listen* to what I have to say.


Thanks, but since i'm comparing it to another brand of paint I am going to use the same conditions for both. I will be using white primer under my other red as well. And the HD person recommended a pink primer, but to use one would have given the Behr product an unfair advantage. 

This is your first post here, you sure you aren't working for Behr? :whistling2:

I invite you to go here: Introductions.


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## Rcon

So, I started with some preliminary tests, comparing the Behr primer to the Zinsser primer. The raw slab of drywall was dusted off, and Behr was applied to the left side, Zinsser to the right. With an equal amount of rolling/backrolling, Zinsser layed out flatter and smoother. Behr went on easy, but left a heavy texture from the nap. 

Conditions are 15 degrees celcius with low humidity. Primer was applied with a 15 mil nap roller sleeve.


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## Workaholic

Rcon said:


> Conditions are 15 degrees celcius with low humidity.


that's about 59 degrees for all of us south of the border.:whistling2:


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## Rcon

Primer is a bond coat, so I wanted to see howwell a strip of green tape would bond to the primer after 1 hour dry time at 15 celcius. Tape was applied, pressed down with a putty knife, left for 10 seconds and ripped off. The tape stuck to the Zinsser much better than it stuck to the Behr.


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## Mantis

Unfortunately, I have actually done Behr deep base red over Behr Undercoat primer. I'm excited for this!

go go go!:thumbup:


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## Rcon

To test the stain blocking abilities of the primers, I used a felt pen, pencil, red pen and black pen. I then liberally applied the respective primers by brush over the markings. The zinsser covered better than the Behr.


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## Rcon

Marking out a black line for the transparency tests. I have also made patches in the corners to see if they will flash after a prime coat and 2 topcoats of each respective product.


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## Mantis

You know it's Sunday right? 


I'm going to sleep. See you Mon-fri 9-5. :thumbup:


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## Rcon

First coat of red. Drywall was pole sanded with 120 and wiped clean with a dry cotton rag. Behr is almost entirely transparent while HP is starting to hide the black line. The "felt mark" is still plainly visible under the behr paint (after being primed with behr primer/stainblocker), while the "felt mark" under the first coat of HP is almost invisible. The Behr paint also appears to be pitting. 

I'm still waiting for the Behr to dry so I can topcoat it, while my HP is nearly ready for a final







sanding.


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## eraser0

Rcon said:


> First coat of red. Drywall was pole sanded with 120 and wiped clean with a dry cotton rag. Behr is almost entirely transparent while HP is starting to hide the black line. The "felt mark" is still plainly visible under the behr paint (after being primed with behr primer/stainblocker), while the "felt mark" under the first coat of HP is almost invisible. The Behr paint also appears to be pitting.
> 
> I'm still waiting for the Behr to dry so I can topcoat it, while my HP is nearly ready for a final sanding.


Awesome testing methodology Rcon! As mostly GP guy I love to see HP kicking butt. Can't wait to see final coat.

I used semi and eggshell HP2K essentially exclusively this summer and loved it. Did some pretty vibrant accent colours in both semi and egg and it always performed. Only time I can recall having a coverage problem was with a very vibrant red (GP Excelsior Red IIRC) over grey prime. Should have done a red tint primer in hindsight!


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## Rcon

Mantis said:


> You know it's Sunday right?
> 
> 
> I'm going to sleep. See you Mon-fri 9-5. :thumbup:


haha I know I know ... I'm on holidays and no wife/kids so nothing better to do than put JP's wild claims about Behr to the test. So far, it ain't looking too good for JP's Paint.


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## Rcon

The results are in!! HP = WIN. Behr = Epic Fail. 

2nd coat shows that HP hides far better than Behr. The drywall patch still flashes on the Behr side, but has dissapeared on the HP side. The "felt" mark still shows on the Behr side, but is gone on the HP side. In fact, I can still even see the pencil mark through the behr. The HP is the correct color while Behr is still pinkish. The Behr is still pitting while the HP is leveled. 

These paints were given the exact same tests in the exact same conditions. HP is my "standard" wall paint while your Behr is supposed to be a premium product. It failed to pass the most basic tests that a painter finds important. I intend to continue testing these paints, to chemical resistance, water resistance, abrasion resistance, impact resistance, and will subject both to alcohol spills and extreme heat. I look forward to shaming your paint further. :thumbup:


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## chrisn

Workaholic said:


> that's about 59 degrees for all of us south of the border.:whistling2:


What about that 15 mil nap?:blink:


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## Rcon

chrisn said:


> What about that 15 mil nap?:blink:


What about it? I used a 15 mil nap for the whole test, primer through paint. Everything was exactly the same.

Oh, nevermind, I guess a 15 mil would be about a 1/2 inch nap for you americans.


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## Rcon

After about an hour of dry down time, I took these last photos to compare color. It is clear that HP is the right color while Behr is still showing white. Also, HP is a nice dull eggshell while the Behr is glossy. 

I'm going to go to bed now, as I feel I have made my case.


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## Wolfgang

Rcon said:


> After about an hour of dry down time, I took these last photos to compare color. It is clear that HP is the right color while Behr is still showing white. Also, HP is a nice dull eggshell while the Behr is glossy.
> 
> I'm going to go to bed now, as I feel I have made my case.


Stayed up all night to do this:blink:. Dedicated sonuvagun isn't he?:yes:


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## Wolfgang

I just hooked up a 19" monitor the other day, but if people keep loading pics that turn these pages into monster size, I may have to upgrade to at least a 23". A real PITA to read too.


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## RCP

Excellent Job Alec!:thumbsup:

Chrisn should love this!


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## bikerboy

Thanks for the testing so far. There is one problem as I see it though. If you are testing topcoats, then they should be applied over trhe same primer. As of right now you cannot be sure what is the weak point in this test.

Could it be the Berh Primer that failed to cover as well as the Zinnser? (bullseye 123 here in the states)


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## George Z

bikerboy said:


> Thanks for the testing so far. There is one problem as I see it though. If you are testing topcoats, then they should be applied over trhe same primer. As of right now you cannot be sure what is the weak point in this test.
> 
> Could it be the Berh Primer that failed to cover as well as the Zinnser? (bullseye 123 here in the states)


Agree. 
At least for the marker hiding comparison.
The hiding of the white looks accurate as the whites are similar.
The hiding of the marker, the stain, even the flashing is a primer issue.
According to the results, the Zinsser primer is superior to the BEHR one.

Also you were biased, all out to prove BEHR is not as good.
Don't get me wrong, I like General paints more but this became a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## y.painting

George Z said:


> According to the results, the Zinsser primer is superior to the BEHR one.


There is more than one variable in each of the above tests 
(ie paint and primer), so you cannot rule out either one. 
Both primers might be equally good at coverage, 
but HP could have better topcoat quality. Or vice versa - 
the topcoats could be equally good but the Zinnser is a 
better primer. I think it's the latter, but that must be shown.



George Z said:


> Also you were biased, all out to prove BEHR is not as good.


Agreed, this is why scientists do double blind experiments:
when testing two drugs/etc, neither the tester nor the testee
know what each drug is. Blinding is a basic tool to prevent
conscious as well as subconscious bias in research. 
For example, in taste tests comparing different product 
brands, consumers usually choose their regular brand.

But, George, this might be tough to do since seasoned 
painters know what each paint "feels" like. So, it wouldn't
really be blind, they'd be able to easily tell.


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## NCPaint1

It was a good test, not so much for product vs product....but for system vs system. I would do this test again but with the behr manufacturer recommended tinted primer, and use the General manufacturer recommended primer ( tinted or not, not familiar with the product ). That way you get the best end result possible, manufacturer system vs manufacturer system. 

Great test so far, good pics!! thanks


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## Rcon

George Z said:


> Agree.
> At least for the marker hiding comparison.
> The hiding of the white looks accurate as the whites are similar.
> The hiding of the marker, the stain, even the flashing is a primer issue.
> According to the results, the Zinsser primer is superior to the BEHR one.
> 
> Also you were biased, all out to prove BEHR is not as good.
> Don't get me wrong, I like General paints more but this became a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I appreciate the critique, but I set out to put Behr products (their premium ones) up against the paint I regularly use. 

A consumer who goes out to buy a Behr topcoat won't likely buy a premium primer, they are more likely to buy the Behr brand of primer as an undercoat, just like the one that was 'recommended to me' by the HD paint person. When I went in there, I didn't ask for any specific product, all I said was that it had to be Behr. 

To use 'my' standard primer under the behr would have given the behr an advantage - thus it would not be an apples to apples comparison. 

For the flashing - I actually didn't prime the patch. I rolled two topcoats of paint directly over the patch (both of them with their respective paints). So it is not a primer issue, it is a paint issue. 

I did my best to compare apples to apples. And those were my results.


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## BrushJockey

Maybe this should be made a sticky. Kind of says a lot- thanks for that! And if JP wants to do the same , with pics to back it up, bring it!


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## Rcon

y.painting said:


> There is more than one variable in each of the above tests
> (ie paint and primer), so you cannot rule out either one.
> Both primers might be equally good at coverage,
> but HP could have better topcoat quality. Or vice versa -
> the topcoats could be equally good but the Zinnser is a
> better primer. I think it's the latter, but that must be shown.


I could be wrong, but I think I proved that Zinsser is superior to Behr with the marking test (felt, red pen, pencil, black pen) which can be found on page 2. I think I also proved the HP is superior to the Behr Premium Plus Topcoat by the patch test above. 

Oh, these products all cost around the same price as well (apples to apples).


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## Workaholic

chrisn said:


> What about that 15 mil nap?:blink:


lol I forgot to give the conversion to that one. It was getting late. 



Wolfgang said:


> I just hooked up a 19" monitor the other day, but if people keep loading pics that turn these pages into monster size, I may have to upgrade to at least a 23". A real PITA to read too.


:thumbup:


bikerboy said:


> Thanks for the testing so far. There is one problem as I see it though. If you are testing topcoats, then they should be applied over trhe same primer. As of right now you cannot be sure what is the weak point in this test.
> That's a good point the same primer with the two topcoat tests might of been more conclusive.
> Could it be the Berh Primer that failed to cover as well as the Zinnser? (bullseye 123 here in the states)


That's a good point the same primer with the two topcoat tests might of been more conclusive. 


BrushJockey said:


> Maybe this should be made a sticky. Kind of says a lot- thanks for that! And if JP wants to do the same , with pics to back it up, bring it!


There ya go JP the ball is in your court. 


Thanks for the side by side comparrison. Rcon. :thumbsup:


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## BillyB

Alec,
If you don't apply a product based on what the manufacturer recommends then the results have absolutely no meaning. It's like buying a Ferrari and putting low octane gas in it. Then driving it on a road course and complaining about the poor performance of the vehicle. Just because the driver was to stupid to follow the directions on the gas cap- "Premium Unleaded Only!" 
I know bashing Behr is a sport here, but it would be interesting to see what you would think of any product if you actually used them the right way. You took a lot of time, effort and money to make the Behr product look bad, and it's very obvious. The sad part is that it has zero effect on how much Behr paint is going to be sold tomorrow at HD, which I guess is what your trying to accomplish? And it certainly isn't going to change any of the minds on this Forum. If Behr or any other brand of paint doesn't have anything to offer you, why not talk about the things you do like? 
Example, Zinsser is an ok primer for certain things, but not my favorite. But, I do like to use Behr primers with Behr paint since the primer is designed around their paint. The Primer pigment is ground extra fine which helps level out the paint, especially higher sheens. Behr Primer under Behr Paint means Behr stands behind it with no questions asked and no arguing about if it was the paint or (zinnser)primer that failed.
I don't like Behr stains, but I do like California. So if anyone wants some positive feedback on California stains I would be more then happy to talk about it. 
It sounds like you have a lot of time on your hands, I'm sure you could give some really great advice on what coatings you actually LIKE. 
Are you really going to do "impact" testing on paint, or "heat" resistance...chemicals???? Most of all "Alcohol"! Please don't waste any good alcohol on paint! 
Save your energy too, I can only imagine the fits your going to have when *Martha Stuart Paint* comes into the HD in a couple months! Every woman in the world is going to want to use it! Probably going to knock Behr right off the shelf.


----------



## Rcon

BillyB said:


> Alec,
> If you don't apply a product based on what the manufacturer recommends then the results have absolutely no meaning. It's like buying a Ferrari and putting low octane gas in it. Then driving it on a road course and complaining about the poor performance of the vehicle. Just because the driver was to stupid to follow the directions on the gas cap- "Premium Unleaded Only!"
> I know bashing Behr is a sport here, but it would be interesting to see what you would think of any product if you actually used them the right way. You took a lot of time, effort and money to make the Behr product look bad, and it's very obvious. The sad part is that it has zero effect on how much Behr paint is going to be sold tomorrow at HD, which I guess is what your trying to accomplish? And it certainly isn't going to change any of the minds on this Forum. If Behr or any other brand of paint doesn't have anything to offer you, why not talk about the things you do like?
> Example, Zinsser is an ok primer for certain things, but not my favorite. But, I do like to use Behr primers with Behr paint since the primer is designed around their paint. The Primer pigment is ground extra fine which helps level out the paint, especially higher sheens. Behr Primer under Behr Paint means Behr stands behind it with no questions asked and no arguing about if it was the paint or (zinnser)primer that failed.
> I don't like Behr stains, but I do like California. So if anyone wants some positive feedback on California stains I would be more then happy to talk about it.
> It sounds like you have a lot of time on your hands, I'm sure you could give some really great advice on what coatings you actually LIKE.
> Are you really going to do "impact" testing on paint, or "heat" resistance...chemicals???? Most of all "Alcohol"! Please don't waste any good alcohol on paint!
> Save your energy too, I can only imagine the fits your going to have when *Martha Stuart Paint* comes into the HD in a couple months! Every woman in the world is going to want to use it! Probably going to knock Behr right off the shelf.


Thanks again for your input, but I once again recommend you go here: introductions, and tell us who you are and what brought you here. 

I have a lot of free time on my hands it seems, and I still have a fresh sheet of drywall! Perhaps for my next set of tests (after i'm done with these ones) I will use the correct color primer that Behr suggests for this red, and I will once again submit it to a battery of tests. Of course, to keep things fair, I will use a grey primer under my HP. Perhaps I will only need 1 coat over it  

Yes, I am really going to subject *both* paints to chemicals, water, impact, heat, and anything else I can think of - I stand behind the products I use and I am not overly concerned about how _my_ products will hold up to these tests. I am curious, however, how *yours?* will. 

And I could care less if the tests I do change any minds - I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and well, I can see what all the fuss is about.


----------



## NCPaint1

Not to back BillyBear BUT.....I would like to see the tinted Behr primer under the behr paint. Also, I noticed that the color in HP was made using a RED base ( awesome, most companies are dropping those type of bases, red, olive, gold, etc..) I think a good test would be 2 coats HP no primer ( if its 100% acrylic ) VS that new baaar self priming paint 2 coats ( any 100% acrylic paint IS self priming BTW ) 

So far, KUDOS to the work and the responses are killer


----------



## Rcon

NCPaint1 said:


> Not to back BillyBear BUT.....I would like to see the tinted Behr primer under the behr paint. Also, I noticed that the color in HP was made using a RED base ( awesome, most companies are dropping those type of bases, red, olive, gold, etc..)* I think a good test would be 2 coats HP no primer ( if its 100% acrylic ) VS that new baaar self priming paint 2 coats *( any 100% acrylic paint IS self priming BTW )
> 
> So far, KUDOS to the work and the responses are killer


Not a bad idea. They sell tester pots of that stuff at HD, and I still have tons of HP - maybe i'll section off a piece of that other drywall sheet and give er a shot. I doubt there will be any difference in hide between the two over raw board (worth testing though) - I imagine it will come down to a test of performance. Thanks for the idea though, i'll add that to my roster of test ideas :no:


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## Builtmany

BillyB said:


> Save your energy too, I can only imagine the fits your going to have when *Martha Stuart Paint* comes into the HD in a couple months! Every woman in the world is going to want to use it! Probably going to knock Behr right off the shelf.


Sounds like inside info from a Behr/ HD employee. 

What keeps us from taking that MS color elsewhere to get it matched in a product we like to use. FYI the women can use it all day long and us men will use the same color made by someone else and not sold in the Big Orange Store.


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## NCPaint1

I match MS colors almost daily, and BEHR, and Glidden, and Valspar, and dare I say SW.


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## earlly

What was the formulas for the behr and the General Red base?


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## BillyB

NCPaint1 said:


> Not to back BillyBear BUT.....I would like to see the tinted Behr primer under the behr paint. Also, I noticed that the color in HP was made using a RED base ( awesome, most companies are dropping those type of bases, red, olive, gold, etc..) I think a good test would be 2 coats HP no primer ( if its 100% acrylic ) VS that new baaar self priming paint 2 coats ( any 100% acrylic paint IS self priming BTW )
> 
> So far, KUDOS to the work and the responses are killer


_"BillyBear" _thats funny. Thats what they call me when I show up to buy my paint! 
Just to make it clear, based on the information I have acquired from Behr, Behr Ultra is NOT a "self priming" paint. It is a PAINT and PRIMER in one. Yes they have figured out how to manipulate molecule and nano's and all kinds of stuff thats way beyond me. But, they make it very clear that this Ultra is NOT a "self priming" paint. You can read more about it on their website. Paint can be manipulated on a molecular level in many ways. We have all heard about "wifi" paint, paint with "good" bacteria in it that will clean the air in our homes as it sits on the wall, paint that senses temperatures and signals heating and cooling of the home, paint that has microscopic mirrors that reflect light so one lightbulb can light the whole room of a house. So, PAINT and PRIMER that goes in a can together and splits as its applied to the wall is not to hard to imagine- on a molecular level-. Hopefully, if Alec does try the Ultra in red as a test, he follows the directions of the manufacturer and or listens to the person at the paint counter. Because there is a "correct" way to apply the "first" coat and the "second" coat of Ultra in a bright red. 
I'm sure someone else must have done some research before??:no: No?


----------



## KLaw

BillyB said:


> _"BillyBear" _thats funny. Thats what they call me when I show up to buy my paint!
> Just to make it clear, based on the information I have acquired from Behr, Behr Ultra is NOT a "self priming" paint. It is a PAINT and PRIMER in one. Yes they have figured out how to manipulate molecule and nano's and all kinds of stuff thats way beyond me. But, they make it very clear that this Ultra is NOT a "self priming" paint. You can read more about it on their website. Paint can be manipulated on a molecular level in many ways. We have all heard about "wifi" paint, paint with "good" bacteria in it that will clean the air in our homes as it sits on the wall, paint that senses temperatures and signals heating and cooling of the home, paint that has microscopic mirrors that reflect light so one lightbulb can light the whole room of a house. So, PAINT and PRIMER that goes in a can together and splits as its applied to the wall is not to hard to imagine- on a molecular level-. Hopefully, if Alec does try the Ultra in red as a test, he follows the directions of the manufacturer and or listens to the person at the paint counter. Because there is a "correct" way to apply the "first" coat and the "second" coat of Ultra in a bright red.
> I'm sure someone else must have done some research before??:no: No?


Billy Boy: Seriously, you'd get a lot more credibility if you'd post an introduction. You sound more like a salesman then a professional painter that absolutely stands by his / her product (like Rcon). Prove yourself and post an intro with your background. If you don't then don't expect a lot of the folks on this forum to take you seriously. Just a piece of some un-solicited advice.


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## BrushJockey

"We have all heard about "wifi" paint, paint with "good" bacteria in it that will clean the air in our homes as it sits on the wall, paint that senses temperatures and signals heating and cooling of the home, paint that has microscopic mirrors that reflect light so one lightbulb can light the whole room of a house. So, PAINT and PRIMER that goes in a can together and splits as its applied to the wall is not to hard to imagine- on a molecular level"

I have heard about some of this. Believing it is a totally different thing. Just like "insulating" paint. Nice marketing concept. And there's one born every minute.


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## jack pauhl

Rcon said:


> This is a challenge I am willing to accept. Let me know what particular product you use for reds and I will get a sheet of raw drywall, prime it white, and put your paint against my 'standard' brand, 2 coats, and see what happens, if for no other reason than to see for myself what all the fuss is about.
> 
> Not being sarcastic - I have a few days off so why not :thumbup:


Alec, what paint are you talking about? Not that it matters but I want to grab a gallon too for a side-by-side. Which sheen?, and I need a color to match. You want to prime drywall white? Not sure why you would want to do that with a red top coat but is that what you want to do? 

Ill use Premium Plus Ultra but without a color I cant tell you which base ill be using. I have 3 base options, Ultra White, Medium and Deep. 

If you want, go grab the same from BEHR, just tell them you want to test out a product. Might need to get it when a rep is there which is often.

I'll do it your way then the way it should be done with a red.

Ill make some HD videos too.


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## KLaw

This is getting interesting. :yes::yes::yes:


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## Last Craftsman

Rcon said:


> Primer is a bond coat, so I wanted to see howwell a strip of green tape would bond to the primer after 1 hour dry time at 15 celcius. Tape was applied, pressed down with a putty knife, left for 10 seconds and ripped off. The tape stuck to the Zinsser much better than it stuck to the Behr.













LOL!


For the sake of Brevity I didn't repeat all of your other pictures.

RCON I have to say....you are a F*ing WINGNUT!

I mean seriously, you are mental, you are......a FREAK.



I love it!

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:


I have never seen anyone be more effective at making their point on an internet forum.

I have no doubt that this determination, and willingness to invest time for the sake of learning/communicating translates into excellence in your technical skills as a painter.

This demonstration was very effective, and thorough, well executed and very informative.

Really, it was awesome.

BTW.

Did I mention this?:

:notworthy:


:thumbsup:


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## Wolfgang

jack pauhl said:


> Alec, what paint are you talking about? Not that it matters but I want to grab a gallon too for a side-by-side. Which sheen?, and I need a color to match. You want to prime drywall white? Not sure why you would want to do that with a red top coat but is that what you want to do?
> 
> Ill use Premium Plus Ultra but without a color I cant tell you which base ill be using. I have 3 base options, Ultra White, Medium and Deep.
> 
> If you want, go grab the same from BEHR, just tell them you want to test out a product. Might need to get it when a rep is there which is often.
> 
> I'll do it your way then the way it should be done with a red.
> 
> Ill make some HD videos too.


Page two of this thread has pics of the cans and color deck choice.


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## Rcon

jack pauhl said:


> Alec, what paint are you talking about? Not that it matters but I want to grab a gallon too for a side-by-side. Which sheen?, and I need a color to match. You want to prime drywall white? Not sure why you would want to do that with a red top coat but is that what you want to do?
> 
> Ill use Premium Plus Ultra but without a color I cant tell you which base ill be using. I have 3 base options, Ultra White, Medium and Deep.
> 
> If you want, go grab the same from BEHR, just tell them you want to test out a product. Might need to get it when a rep is there which is often.
> 
> I'll do it your way then the way it should be done with a red.
> 
> Ill make some HD videos too.


Hi JP, 

Sheen is Eggshell, color is General Paint "Fahrenheit" CL 1427N. It was the reddest red in the fan deck. On both your Premium Plus and on your Premium Plus ultra I got the color in deep base. 

I've actually done a side by side already with the Ultra. I have to admit, much to my chagrin, the Ultra is a very hi hiding product. It hides better than my HP. When applied to raw drywall, both the Ultra and the HP achieved full hide in 1 coat. However, I marked a black line across the drywall, and Ultra covered the line better than HP. Over raw drywall, both the HP and Behr were the same color as the sample (minus the Behr being a bit off due to a mistint). I would post pictures of it (and will) bit the images I posted on this thread are hosted through imagebucket (am having trouble uploading attachments directly to the site here), and my bandwidth on imagebucket has been all used up. I upgraded a couple of hours ago, so when they process my upgrade the images will come back online and i'll be able to post more. 

[EDIT - managed to get the new ones uploaded - behr premium plus ultra on left, HP on right. Behr covered better - BOO :whistling2: But it had a grainy feeling finish - YAY! Patches are for a touch up test.]

HOWEVER - Comparing the Ultra to HP is kind of comparing apples to oranges. Ultra is your top-of-the-line brand (best you have) and HP is my standard brand. Ultra is also $20.00 more per gallon than my HP. To make any meaningful comparison to the Ultra I would have to pit it against something like Aura (which I would consider my best), which I get for around the same price as your Ultra in $CAD. 

I compared my HP to your Premium Plus, as was recommended to me by the paint dept at HD when I told them I was going to paint a red over a white primer. The Premium Plus is comparible in price to HP ($32/gal, actually I think the Behr was a tad more). The Behr undercoat enamel is comparable in price to Zinsser 123. The whole point of doing this test was to keep it as "apples to apples" as I could, and test the performance of each product. The idea behind using a white primer instead of a red or grey one was to make it easier to determine qualities of the paints, such as transparency, and also, because many new homes are primed in white before any color goes on, I figured it would be a good 'real world' test. Not many people will prime each room a different color before painting. Reds may be an exception however.

Imagine, if you will, I put a coat of pink or grey primer over drywall, then paint it two coats with a red that is very transparent such as your "Premium Plus" red. An electrician comes into the house and bangs a hole in the wall. I have to patch it and spot prime it (twice). What is going to happen around that patch with that transparent red? What's going to happen is it's going to darken - but just in that spot. It doesn't matter what color primer I use on that wall, because no matter what it's going to flash. 

Anyhow, apples to oranges as it may be, my HP is holding up well to the Ultra. Below is 2 coats of each.


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## bikerboy

$32.00 a gallon for Behr? Wow, here it is $18.00. So that prices it around BM Super Spec and/or SW Promar 200. Never heard of the line you are using. (general paint)


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## George Z

bikerboy said:


> $32.00 a gallon for Behr? Wow, here it is $18.00. So that prices it around BM Super Spec and/or SW Promar 200. Never heard of the line you are using. (general paint)


General paints was a major brand in Western Canada.
They are in Ontario now too. 
They make very good paints and carry all lines.
They are now Mexican owned

http://www.thecomexgroup.com/#home


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## BillyB

*The whole point of doing this test was to keep it as "apples to apples" as I could, and test the performance of each product. The idea behind using a white primer instead of a red or grey one was to make it easier to determine qualities of the paints, such as transparency, and also, because many new homes are primed in white before any color goes on, I figured it would be a good 'real world' test. Not many people will prime each room a different color before painting. Reds may be an exception however.*

It's not apples to apples when its not applied properly as recommended by the manufacturer. All you proved was that red colorant is transparent over a bright white background. 
As far as "real world", I think people and especially pro painters *are* willing to prime a wall properly before using a problematic color. 
As far as touch up on a bright red, I prime with tinted primer and then thin out the topcoat substantially with water and apply 2 coats. It cuts on build up and blends in nicely. This is what Behr recommended to me when asked the question. 

As far as price for Ultra, I get 20% off at the contractor service desk and my cost is less then 30.00 a gallon. The old premium behr I get for less then 16.00 dollars a gallon with my discount.


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## NCPaint1

BillyB said:


> I get 20% off at the contractor service desk and my cost is less then 30.00 a gallon. The old premium behr I get for less then 16.00 dollars a gallon with my discount.



I get that 20% coupon in the mail too, it usually goes into the circular file :thumbup:


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## BillyB

Interesting, I've never seen a 20% coupon from HD. I get 20% off for every purchase, every day, every time I buy at the service desk. I guess its not as exciting as lounging around all day waiting for the mail man to come so you can circle file your HD coupons.


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## NCPaint1

BillyB said:


> Interesting, I've never seen a 20% coupon from HD. I get 20% off for every purchase, every day, every time I buy at the service desk. I guess its not as exciting as lounging around all day waiting for the mail man to come so you can circle file your HD coupons.



So you cant use the self scan? What a total inconvenience. Thats what I enjoy the most about the box shops.....the self help. I mean its a total waste of time to try and get any good info from the employees, so talking to one at a check out would waste more of my time.

I can get all sorts of discounts from the people at the service desk, all you have to do is use big words and confuse them a bit.

Could a mod please direct Billy to the DIY site.


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## bikerboy

NCPaint1 said:


> So you cant use the self scan? What a total inconvenience. Thats what I enjoy the most about the box shops.....the self help. I mean its a total waste of time to try and get any good info from the employees, so talking to one at a check out would waste more of my time.
> 
> I can get all sorts of discounts from the people at the service desk, all you have to do is use big words and confuse them a bit.


If you have a contractors account, your discount is in the system. Since he is getting his delivered on-site he obviously qualifies. When you have an account on his level you deal with the contractors desk. Even for paint. It is a whole other world.

As far as directing him to a DIY page, you should show him the same respect that you would like. A huge case could be made that your posts are self serving because you are a paint distributor. Yet nobody is itching about you yet.


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## RCP

And this is where it get sticky. BillyB has been nicely asked by a few of us to post an intro. This has been a good thread and I would hate to see it go off track.
If you have an issue with a poster, please report it and trust us to take care of it.
Thanks


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## bikerboy

No issue. Just pointing out that the man is likely a contractor.

I never posted an intro and as far as the rules go, I don't see where it is required. In fact I don't see why it should be required. Does anybody really believe that posting an introduction makes one a better member? Or more active?


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## BillyB

I can certainly understand NCpaint10s fear and frustrations. The last thing he needs is someone on here saying something positive about Behr, Glidden, Kilz, CWF, Thompsons or anything else that HD sells. Also, I would never say anything bad about his business or how he runs it. I will continue to share my thoughts and any information about the products I use. Hopefully the responses will be in good spirit, as they have been for the most part. Since I use Behr products almost everyday, it will be the one that I will have the most to talk about. It may or may not be the best, but the misuse, lies and misinformation that is prevalent on the site in regards to Behr needs to be responded to. It's time to level the playing field. 
In response to NCpaint100's inability to understand how convenient and cost effective the Contractors Service Desk is, it goes like this. 
-They put your information into their system, which is downloaded to every HD in the country-done
-They set your discount at either 10-15-20%
-You call in your order to the desk and pick up, or request delivery
-Or you go to the store, grab your items, go to pro desk, tell them your name, check out at the same desk and save a lot of money. I see the same people at the desk everytime I go and they know me by first and last name. The process is FAST.
As far as an intro? Hi my name is Bill, I work for a living, pay to much in taxes, love to fish and hope to retire in the next 10 years, as long as Obama doesn't destroy the country in the next 3. I'm a Capricorn also, cause I know NCpaint1000 wants to know.


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## Rcon

BillyB said:


> *As far as touch up on a bright red, I prime with tinted primer and then thin out the topcoat substantially with water and apply 2 coats. It cuts on build up and blends in nicely. This is what Behr recommended to me when asked the question. *


Sorry, but i'm not going to thin out an 'already watery and transparent' paint with 20% water. No only will that prevent coverage over my patch, but it will make my paint splash and run and sag as it's being applied. At full strength, I was showing pitting issues - so what do you think is going to happen when I add 20% water? It's going to get worse that's what. Not only that, but, because I thin the paint, I have to apply more coats to get it to cover, so that spot will still flash (and now have sags, runs and pits). 

*From the can: "Do not thin if brushing and rolling. If using a sprayer and thinning is required, thin with water at a rate no more than 236ml per 3.79L." *That's equivalent to 6.2%, NOT 20%!! Thinning that much will ruin the integrity of the paint. 

And I don't need to thin my paints. Never do.


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## Workaholic

Alright guys lets just keep this on track, it has turned into a better thread than I would of gave it credit for at the begining. I thank Rcon for putting so much into it. I am also looking forward to JP's testing as well. 

Who cares about all the problems we have with behr and the box stores you either shop there or you don't. we don't need to spend a lot of energy trying to convince anyone why they should or why they should not buy from a certain place. I am more interested in the conclusions of the testing done than the blah blah of behr and the box stores. 

Biker, no it is not required to post an intro, it does make an easier transition into PT I have noticed though. The reason why Billy B is being steared that way is because it raises flags when people only get involved in threads that defend or promote certain products. 

I am not saying Billy works for Behr or not. Frankly if he does or does not does not concern me. I would enjoy to read more of Billy B's post on other threads just to get to know him better and to hear about his business model.


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## KLaw

BillyB said:


> As far as an intro? Hi my name is Bill, *I work for a living*, pay to much in taxes, love to fish and hope to retire in the next 10 years, as long as Obama doesn't destroy the country in the next 3. I'm a Capricorn also, cause I know NCpaint1000 wants to know.


I don't think Billy is a contractor and really don't care if he is or is not. The reason I say this is because he had the perfect opportunity and decided to do the jig (Hi my name is Bill, *I work for a living).*

Billy: What kind of work do you do for a living? Even if you are in sales - I still welcome you to the forum. Just man up - if you want to. 

Rcon: Thanks for examples and pics. Maybe after all is said and done, you can put these pics in a package for your company and present to HO's why you use superior products.

Jack Pahl: Look forward to your demo as well.


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## ewingpainting.net

Alec, Great deal, Thanks, how bout making a sticky out of this, we can direct anybody that ask about behr, so we don't have to have the same stupid conversation again and again.


----------



## Rcon

After 24 hours, an X was cut to the substrate on both the Ultra and the HP, and I performed an adhesion test. First with green, then with white. Tape was pressed down with a putty knife, left for 10 seconds and ripped off. 

There was no adhesion problem with either product. 

I'll note here that the Ultra is a "paint and primer" in one, while HP is a "Paint" and recommends a primer. Neither was given a prime coat under the paint. 

Ultra on left, HP on right. Top photos were with green, bottom were with white.


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## Rcon

Ultra and HP were subjected to an alcohol spill with Bacardi. I poured 1/8th cup on each, and left for 30 seconds. Both were wiped off with a clean white cotton rag, and I used a different rag for both. 

The Ultra had colorant lift off, while HP did not. The finish on the Ultra deglossed mildly, while the HP was unaffected. Both left mild streaking. 

Ultra on left, HP on right.


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## Last Craftsman

jack pauhl said:


> I've been testing paints and products forever.





jack pauhl said:


> I'll do it your way then the way it should be done with a red.





BillyB said:


> Because there is a "correct" way to apply the "first" coat and the "second" coat of Ultra in a bright red.
> I'm sure someone else must have done some research before?? No?





BillyB said:


> Who cares. Do a test on the right way



Fight Club?


----------



## Rcon

Using a damp rag and warm water, I wiped up the same area as the alcohol spill, I used 1 side of the rag for Ultra, and 1 side for HP. The rag picked up more colorant from the Ultra, and a small amount amount from the HP. 

Notice that the Ultra has permanent damage from the alcohol visible after a wipe down with water, while the wipe down on the HP side cleaned the surface leaving no visible damage. 

Ultra on Left, HP on right


----------



## capitalcity painting

BillyB said:


> Well, your going to have to go back to HD and ask for the *tinted primer* that Behr recommends you use under that problematic red. Who recommends *white primer* under reds, yellows, and greens? Not Behr. Behr has a specific *tinted primer formula* for *every* problematic color in their color selection(reds,greens,yellows). It basically takes a little bit of the colorant formula from your color and puts it in the primer. Just think, if you take some of the colorant thats in your selected color and put it into the primer, don't you think it will get you to your color faster and easier? It works, and all the tinted primer formulas are in the computers at HD. Its amazing what happens when you follow manufacturers recommendations!
> Whats the point of taking a gallon of red colorant and spreading it out over bright white?? You'll prove how poorly red colorant covers? Who cares. Do a test on the *right way* to get great results when using problematic colors. Now that would be helpful.
> You can learn a lot if you *ask* the manufactures questions about their products. I've called the number on top of the Behr Can to get advice on how to use their products(like bright reds). That goes for BM also. Instead of bashing the Aura, I talk to the manufacturer about it. Now it's working better for me. It's amazing what you can learn if you make an effort instead of blindly bashing products. The worse thing you can do is to continue doing the same things you've been doing the last 40 years. Times have changed, time to learn a few new tricks and catch up with the products and technology thats out there. AND READ DIRECTIONS FROM THE MANUFACTURERS!
> By the way, you should have taken her advice and bought the ULTRA. The stuff is pretty good, the way it covers(because of automotive grade colorants) and performs will save you a lot of time.
> *No*, I don't work for Behr. I have a long history with using their products and have taken the time to speak with their technical service people and local reps on how to properly use them. And for those that think Behr does not take care of the Pro contractor...I have my local Reps personal cell phone number, I get 20% off the shelf price that the DIY pays at HD, they tint my paint at *their* factory and deliver to *my* job site for *free*(no trip to HD paint department), free shirts- fan decks- hats- buckets and more. Best of all, they* listen* to what I have to say.


We need to put a **** button next to the thanks button:thumbup:


----------



## Rcon

For this test, on a fresh section of the board, I sprayed 4 sprays of Mr. Clean to each surface, waited 30 seconds, and wiped clean with a dry white cotton rag for 5 seconds. Each side had it's own rag. 

Much more colorant was removed from the Ultra than from the HP.


----------



## Rcon

Remember those patches from earlier? This is after 2 coats with a brush. An equal amount of paint (2 brushfulls) were applied to each patch per coat, and feathered out all across the top section. The Ultra did hide the patch better, but is flashing like crazy. 

The same brush was used for both patches. Both are under the same lighting condidtions (1000 watts per side). 

This will conclude my tests on the Ultra, as I see no need to demonstrate further that my HP is superior in all areas but 1 - hide. But I will only concede_ that_ in *red*. 

I will also state here that this is the brightest, reddest red in the GP color collection, and any, *ANY* standard color you can throw at me, I will have complete hide in 2 coats over white primer with this product. I never, *never* color prime walls, always always white, and I can do that because I *know* my product will cover in 2 coats, every time. There is a reason why I have been using this product for 12 years - and that is because it is *proven*. It is also $20 cheaper than your Ultra. 

So I now pass the ball back to you JP - IF you think you can beat my standard with your best, I challenge you to prove it. 

Ultra on Left.

Thanks for coming out!


----------



## KLaw

Alec - You are the man! Thanks for all of your testing efforts.:thumbup:


----------



## jacob33

Not to knock your tests but shouldn't the washability/scrubbabilty test be done after the paint is cured. I heard that takes about a week with acrylic paints and 30 days with oil. I dont know if those numbers are accurate but that is what I was always told. One of those paints might cure faster than the other. Just my 2 cents.

I Just looked it up and I found acrylic takes 30 days to fully cure.


----------



## johnpaint

sure is a lot of roller rash in that one side. Is that the smoothest you could get that one side. Sure you didn't over work it?


----------



## Rcon

johnpaint said:


> sure is a lot of roller rash in that one side. Is that the smoothest you could get that one side. Sure you didn't over work it?


I rolled/backrolled both sides equally with a 15 mil nap. That board is under 2000 watts of light (1000 watts per side) so everything shows up easily for the camera. That way I don't have the need for a flash that will wash out the details.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Rcon said:


> I rolled/backrolled both sides equally with a 15 mil nap. That board is under 2000 watts of light (1000 watts per side) so everything shows up easily for the camera. That way I don't have the need for a flash that will wash out the details.


I would have been very interested to see how the tests would go if the surface had been vertical like an actual wall.

You know, a big issue for me, and one of the things I do not like about Behr, and I have tried it many times of the years, even recently, is the actual way it goes on, and what it does AFTER I put it on.

I need paint to go on effortlessly, keep a wet edge for a while, and smooth out in a way that doesn't require slowing down 5-10% on the backrolling part of the equation to make the nap look good. ( thus excascerabating the wet edge issue )

Meaning the faster I can fly, with less mucking around to get the nap to look good, the better.

All of the Behr paint I have tried recently with the exception of a ceiling flat white that I used, has this weird way that in applies that is not like other paints.

It tends to have a watery quality that makes it a little more transparent, it splatters more, and the worst thing of all that really makes it unusable to me, is that AFTER I am done rolling it, and AFTER it looks good, it starts to move, and change and enamalize, and all of the little mounds from each little individual bunches of nap actually start to run a little bit.

When you look up close every single place where there is a mound from the nap starts to run a little bit.

It doesn't matter what size roller nap I use, it still does it to varying degrees.

I always feel like I have to paint a section normally, then come back in a minute or two and backroll it one more time to get the little mounds from the nap to STOP moving.

There are a couple other paints that I have seen do that, but Behr is the worst.

I am just not use to that in a paint. I first started painting in 1989, there was a way that all paints worked back then, I have managed to always find a brand that works that way ever since, and I don't want paint to move around AFTER I am done rolling it.

I mean like way after, like I could look at it 15 minutes after rolling it, and even after that the paint is still moving around and doing weird **** that paint never used to do.

I just want to put the paint on the surface , backroll/smooth the section out ONE time, and from that point on NOTHING changes about the shape of the surface with the exception of shrinking as it loses moisture.

------------

For me, a HUGE part of dealing with paint, is how easy is it to work with.

Cost is not an object either, I will pay top dollar for the best paint, or I will pay middle range prices for the best paint, I don't base my decisions on price per gallon, I base my decisions on how easy is it to accomplish the task, and also touch up is very important to me.

------------

In any case it would have been interesting to see how those products especially if one product is turning out more nappy than another, would have performed with gravity having it's usual effect.


----------



## Rcon

That's all I have to say about that. :thumbsup:


----------



## chrisn

Last Craftsman said:


> I would have been very interested to see how the tests would go if the surface had been vertical like an actual wall.
> 
> You know, a big issue for me, and one of the things I do not like about Behr, and I have tried it many times of the years, even recently, is the actual way it goes on, and what it does AFTER I put it on.
> 
> I need paint to go on effortlessly, keep a wet edge for a while, and smooth out in a way that doesn't require slowing down 5-10% on the backrolling part of the equation to make the nap look good. ( thus excascerabating the wet edge issue )
> 
> Meaning the faster I can fly, with less mucking around to get the nap to look good, the better.
> 
> All of the Behr paint I have tried recently with the exception of a ceiling flat white that I used, has this weird way that in applies that is not like other paints.
> 
> It tends to have a watery quality that makes it a little more transparent, it splatters more, and the worst thing of all that really makes it unusable to me, is that AFTER I am done rolling it, and AFTER it looks good, it starts to move, and change and enamalize, and all of the little mounds from each little individual bunches of nap actually start to run a little bit.
> 
> When you look up close every single place where there is a mound from the nap starts to run a little bit.
> 
> It doesn't matter what size roller nap I use, it still does it to varying degrees.
> 
> I always feel like I have to paint a section normally, then come back in a minute or two and backroll it one more time to get the little mounds from the nap to STOP moving.
> 
> There are a couple other paints that I have seen do that, but Behr is the worst.
> 
> I am just not use to that in a paint. I first started painting in 1989, there was a way that all paints worked back then, I have managed to always find a brand that works that way ever since, and I don't want paint to move around AFTER I am done rolling it.
> 
> I mean like way after, like I could look at it 15 minutes after rolling it, and even after that the paint is still moving around and doing weird **** that paint never used to do.
> 
> I just want to put the paint on the surface , backroll/smooth the section out ONE time, and from that point on NOTHING changes about the shape of the surface with the exception of shrinking as it loses moisture.
> 
> ------------
> 
> For me, a HUGE part of dealing with paint, is how easy is it to work with.
> 
> Cost is not an object either, I will pay top dollar for the best paint, or I will pay middle range prices for the best paint, I don't base my decisions on price per gallon, I base my decisions on how easy is it to accomplish the task, and also touch up is very important to me.
> 
> ------------
> 
> In any case it would have been interesting to see how those products especially if one product is turning out more nappy than another, would have performed with gravity having it's usual effect.


 
Yes, yes and yes, finally put into words. I hope Mr Behr guy will quickly come up with a response to this!( Dream on):w00t:


----------



## daArch

I absolutely agree with jacob33. The tests about spills and washability are not valid until both products have cured.

Sorry, but if you want valid tests, you MUST be fair to each product. 

I have no love for Behr, but a tester must remain impartial. And quite frankly these tests were not done with a totally impartial mind. 

And that was said with total impartiality.


----------



## George Z

I agree with daArch.
These were not scientific tests. It was great work and thank you.
You have now a basic understanding that one paint is better than the other
and having used both, you are probably right, 
but scientific these tests are not.


----------



## NCPaint1

daArch said:


> I absolutely agree with jacob33. The tests about spills and washability are not valid until both products have cured.
> 
> Sorry, but if you want valid tests, you MUST be fair to each product.
> 
> I have no love for Behr, but a tester must remain impartial. And quite frankly these tests were not done with a totally impartial mind.
> 
> And that was said with total impartiality.



Arch is right BUT, I think Alec was also doing some "real world" tests. How many times have you left a customers home and said...."now wait a minimum of 30 days before washing any marks off your walls" and they didnt listen. I get that all the time, I actually tell people NOT to wash their walls....but they still do anyways. 

Being that he did the test after 24hrs is irrelevant. He did the same test to both products, which IMO isn't that big a deal. He could always wait 30 days and do the wash test again....I believe the end result would be similar, but with less color rub-off on each product.


----------



## BrushJockey

Actually considering they were uncured and he used alcohol, not water, they both did pretty well.


----------



## BillyB

Rcon said:


> Sorry, but i'm not going to thin out an 'already watery and transparent' paint with 20% water. No only will that prevent coverage over my patch, but it will make my paint splash and run and sag as it's being applied. At full strength, I was showing pitting issues - so what do you think is going to happen when I add 20% water? It's going to get worse that's what. Not only that, but, because I thin the paint, I have to apply more coats to get it to cover, so that spot will still flash (and now have sags, runs and pits).
> 
> *From the can: "Do not thin if brushing and rolling. If using a sprayer and thinning is required, thin with water at a rate no more than 236ml per 3.79L." *That's equivalent to 6.2%, NOT 20%!! Thinning that much will ruin the integrity of the paint.
> 
> And I don't need to thin my paints. Never do.


*Did I say add 20% water somewhere??? *
*On the can it says add a 1/2 pint of water per gallon if you want. It can actually handle much more then that and not effect the durability of the paint. I'm qualified enough to be able to handle adding a 1/2 pint of water to a gallon of paint and not have it "sag,run, and pit". Your not? Maybe you should try a "test" on that. *
* As far as your latest tests, I'm sorry but the manufacturer of the paint says it takes 30 days for a full cure, even longer for darker colors. So far your 0-5. *
*In regards to issues with rolling out or brushing Behr, I had a hard time with it at first and didn't like the way it rolled or brushed. I found out with practice that I was totally over-rolling the paint. I was use to thinner paints that you could play with a lot and not affect the finish. This stuff is thicker and needs less rolling, which actually saves me time in the long run. The key is to load it, get it on the wall and leave it. The worse thing you can do is over-roll it. Thats when the popping sound starts and your pulling paint back off the wall. Brushing is the same, over-brushing causes "fanning" of the paint and drying begins as your still dragging your brush thru it(brush strokes). Load the brush, hit the suface quick and leave it to settle on its own. This paint dries pretty quick, the more you play with it the worse the finish. Not that anyone here needs a lesson on painting, but just telling you what I've learned. Get it on the surface and leave it. Benefit, less rolling less brushing=saved time for me.*

_"It tends to have a watery quality that makes it a little more transparent, it splatters more, and the worst thing of all that really makes it unusable to me, is that AFTER I am done rolling it, and AFTER it looks good, it starts to move, and change and enamalize, and all of the little mounds from each little individual bunches of nap actually start to run a little bit."_

*Wow, wish I had some of what your smoking! Sounds like a good trip, j/k. If you have clumps of balled up nap running down your wall, don't you think it might be your cheap ass rollers your using and your over applying because you want to cheat and get the job done in one coat??? Cheap rollers and brushes=Crap finish. Try premium rollers and don't over work the paint. If Behr is flying off your roller your way overworking it, Behr is thick. *


----------



## Last Craftsman

daArch said:


> Sorry, but if you want valid tests, you MUST be fair to each product.
> 
> I have no love for Behr, but a tester must remain impartial. And quite frankly these tests were not done with a totally impartial mind.


I disagree with the impartial aspect of this statement, and the wording that Rcon wasn't being fair. Saying that the tests were not impartial implies that the methodology was intentionally skewed to favor one product.

I do agree that in order to arrive at an ACCURATE conclusion as to which paint performed better, that the paint should have been allowed to cure properly. I also had that thought right when I read the procedure for the durability test.

The only way to accurately test the two products would have been to allow both products to cure properly.

However, for all we know, the test may have actually FAVORED the Behr product.

Meaning that for all we know, if both paints were allowed to fully cure, there would have been even MORE of a disparity between the two products, and the non-Behr would have been EVEN stronger by compison then when the test had been done without full curing.

In any case, I feel the tests were done impartially, but just that the tests were inconclusive because there was a variable that was not included, and that should have been taken into consideration.


----------



## BillyB

_"This will conclude my tests on the Ultra, as I see no need to demonstrate further that my HP is superior in all areas but 1 - hide. But I will only concede that in *red*". _

*What a surprise!:blink:*

* Well, the good news is your happy with the results of your paint. Now you can continue to use it with confidence and a sense of pride. I enjoy hearing what makes a product good and its end users satisfied. It's better then hearing how much someone HATES something over and over..........................................:yes:*


----------



## NCPaint1

Again....He did the SAME tests to BOTH....regardless of cure time. Its not like one product was cured and the other wasn't. They weren't scientific tests, they were real world tests. I dont know about you, but most of my customers arent applying products in a lab...are yours?


----------



## daArch

Last Craftsman said:


> I disagree with the impartial aspect of this statement, and the wording that Rcon wasn't being fair. Saying that the tests were not impartial implies that the methodology was intentionally skewed to favor one product.


LC,

Perhaps I read Rcon's words all wrong. But I got the impression that he felt Behr was crap before the tests. (and who here would argue?)

I never implied his methodology was INTENTIONALLY skewed.

An absolute impartial test would have someone doing blind tests. The person applying the product would not know which one he was applying. The human mind is a funny thing, when doing tests one must be certain that no subconsciousness affects the permorming of the test.

If someone who LIKED Behr (gack!) did tests where the Behr did not ack like sh!t, most people here would say the person subconsciously skewed the application. 

And REAL tests would have control products, but that isn't so critical in this insrtance.

I am not arguing with the results, just describing how tests must be done to be totally valid. This is high school science, not rocket surgery.


----------



## Last Craftsman

BillyB said:


> * I found out with practice that I was totally over-rolling the paint. *


Did you read the part where I said this:



Last Craftsman said:


> I need paint to go on effortlessly, keep a wet edge for a while, and smooth out in a way that doesn't require slowing down 5-10% on the backrolling part of the equation to make the nap look good. ( thus exacerbating the wet edge issue )
> 
> Meaning the faster I can fly, with less mucking around to get the nap to look good, the better.


*
You are talking out your ass to the wrong person my friend. *

Trust me I am ALL ABOUT BACKROLLING PAINT AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. That is the WHOLE POINT of using a paint that applies EFFORTLESSLY.



BillyB said:


> *I was use to thinner paints that you could play with a lot and not affect the finish. *


Well I am NOT used paints that you could "play with a lot" because I have ALWAYS wanted to "play with" the paint as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.

Apparently your reading comprehension is extremely low, because that was the ENTIRE POINT of my post.

"Playing with the paint" means that first and foremost TAKES longer to finish the job, secondly you are not keeping as wet of an edge, so you are more prone to dry marks on large walls especially in the summer.



BillyB said:


> *This stuff is thicker and needs less rolling, *


Did you read the part where I wrote this*?

*


Last Craftsman said:


> I just want to put the paint on the surface , backroll/smooth the section out ONE time, and from that point on NOTHING changes about the shape of the surface


The "Thicker" aspect, and the whole paint&primer in 1/ Magical Unicorn aspect of the paint is in my opinion THE WHOLE PROBLEM. Paints never used to do the thing that I am talking about until they started trying to make magic paint that does everything in one coat, and make it scrubbable to boot.

If they ever do make paint accomplished those goals AND FUNCTIONS PROPERLY when using/applying it, I will be happy to use it.



BillyB said:


> *The worse thing you can do is over-roll it. *


Trust me, I am ALL ABOUT NOT OVER ROLLING PAINT. You are not teaching me ANYTHING here nephew.


BillyB said:


> * Load the brush, hit the suface quick and leave it to settle on its own. This paint dries pretty quick, the more you play with it the worse the finish. Not that anyone here needs a lesson on painting, but just telling you what I've learned. *


Lol.

So you have "LEARNED"this have you? When....RECENTLY? :notworthy:

I am going to be 100% honest with you. *I can not remember a time when I did not know this*, and I started painting in 1989.

Welcome to the club kid, now you know.



BillyB said:


> *If you have clumps of balled up nap running down your wall, don't you think it might be your cheap ass rollers your using and your over applying because you want to cheat and get the job done in one coat??? *


You don't know me very well, I have posted more than once on the issue of TWO COATS being an important part of the paint procedure for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not the paint will hide and achieve coverage in one coat.

You are stating as fact that I use cheap roller covers, and that I want to get the job done in one coat. 

And the actual fact that God and I both know is true, is that you are *WRONG.

*How is it that you can state such an absolute with zero knowledge? Do you have a crystal ball in your ass?



BillyB said:


> *Cheap rollers and brushes=Crap finish.*


*

:blink:

*Did you recently figure this out as well? Someone should give you a cookie or a gold star or something.
* 
-------------

*The other variable here is, MAYBE YOU ARE CONTENT with a finish that I would actually consider crap. Have you considered that possibility?

And maybe THAT is the reason why you don't have a problem with the paint.

I know people who don't use a vacuum when prepping their finish work, and who just use a duster brush, and when asked if they use a vacuum they reply "I never have a problem just using a duster".

In their mind there is no problem, but their finish work is full of all kinds of dust and hairs and imperfections. 

Without seeing your work, and without you seeing mine, there is no way to determine this variable.
*
---------------

*Listen here dude.

I stated my experience, even fairly recent experiences working with Behr paint.

Now maybe you have had DIFFERENT experience. Maybe the latest incarnation of Behr paint does react differently then my experience I don't know.

If you would have came on here saying that you don't have those problems, there really would have been no way for me to say otherwise, or know that you did not got excellent results.

But instead you come here, talking out of your ass, telling me some **** about my procedures that I know a fact is not true, and making me seriously question your accuracy regarding ANY OTHER MATTER, regarding painting including whether or not your results look like crap, and your jobs are not completed in an efficient systematic fashion.

*Which I am leaning towards now based on your asinine, sophomoric, "revelations" about very BASIC painting 101 technical knowledge. *



BillyB said:


> Also, I would never say anything bad about his business or how he runs it.


Really? well, you might want to think about not coming on this forum "saying anything bad" about the skills of other painters on this forum, when in fact you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.


You also might want to think about trying not to insult people while contradicting yourself such as in this example:



BillyB said:


> *If you don't apply a product based on what the manufacturer recommends *then the results have absolutely no meaning. It's like buying a Ferrari and putting low octane gas in it.--[EDIT]---*Just because the driver was to stupid to follow the directions on the gas cap*





BillyB said:


> On the can it says add a 1/2 pint of water per gallon if you want. *It can actually handle much more then that and not effect the durability of the paint. I'm qualified enough to be able to handle adding a 1/2 pint of water to a gallon of paint*


_*ARE*_ you qualified do this? You already stated conclusively that not following the manufacturers recommendations is "STUPID". 

So you are STUPID according to your own definition. How does being stupid make you "qualified" to do something?

At least RCON was not actually disregarding manufacturers instructions as a procedure he would do in an acutal job environment, he *intentionally* did it because he thought it might help isolate something for testing purposes. I have no doubt that he understands that when painting a red wall, you want to prime with a blocking color first.

What you have stated on the other hand is that you DO DISREGARD the manufacturers instructions as a matter of your actual procedure.

---------
*
Behr in mind: * Rcon's post on this thread whether accurate, or not, were NOT against *BillyB*. His posts were against Behr products.

*Your* posts however, *WERE against Rcon.* 

Can you comprehend the difference?

---------

So far, the members of this forum have absolutely NOTHING to go on regarding your actual technical abilities, or experience in the trade.

All you have really presented is a bunch of hot air punctuated with the occasional abrasive insult and retarded assumption.

So basically if we are to determine the effectiveness and quality of Behr products based on your recommendation, and your credibility as a poster in this forum, then Behr is failing the test quite miserably.

----------

I would suggest trying to not to be so impudent and disrespectful in the future. 

:thumbup:


----------



## Last Craftsman

daArch said:


> LC,
> 
> I never implied his methodology was INTENTIONALLY skewed.


And I did not mean to imply that you MEANT to imply that. 

I just wanted to clarify for the readers of the thread, that while certain aspects of Rcons tests may have been inaccurate, I personally didn't perceive that he was TRYING to skew the results. 

People might have read your post, and come to that conclusion, even if that is not what you intended.


----------



## y.painting

OOO, Let's type in all *bold and big fonts,* that will prove our point.


----------



## RCP

Last Crafstman, :notworthy::notworthy:


BillyB, I would strongly suggest that you spend some reading on this forum. You will find there are some very talented craftsmen, LC being at the top of the list! 
Spend some time getting to know us and us to know you, and you will see what type of place this is. 
Rcon has done one of the best Behr threads here, you want to see a different test, show us some of your work, I for one am not entirely convinced that this (a professional painters forum) is the right place for you.


----------



## KLaw

Last Craftsman said:


> Did you read the part where I said this:
> 
> 
> 
> *You are talking out your ass to the wrong person my friend. *
> 
> Trust me I am ALL ABOUT BACKROLLING PAINT AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. That is the WHOLE POINT of using a paint that applies EFFORTLESSLY.
> 
> Well I am NOT used paints that you could "play with a lot" because I have ALWAYS wanted to "play with" the paint as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.
> 
> Apparently your reading comprehension is extremely low, because that was the ENTIRE POINT of my post.
> 
> "Playing with the paint" means that first and foremost TAKES longer to finish the job, secondly you are not keeping as wet of an edge, so you are more prone to dry marks on large walls especially in the summer.
> 
> 
> Did you read the part where I wrote this*?*
> 
> 
> The "Thicker" aspect, and the whole paint&primer in 1/ Magical Unicorn aspect of the paint is in my opinion THE WHOLE PROBLEM. Paints never used to do the thing that I am talking about until they started trying to make magic paint that does everything in one coat, and make it scrubbable to boot.
> 
> If they ever do make paint accomplished those goals AND FUNCTIONS PROPERLY when using/applying it, I will be happy to use it.
> 
> Trust me, I am ALL ABOUT NOT OVER ROLLING PAINT. You are not teaching me ANYTHING here nephew.
> Lol.
> 
> So you have "LEARNED"this have you? When....RECENTLY? :notworthy:
> 
> I am going to be 100% honest with you. *I can not remember a time when I did not know this*, and I started painting in 1989.
> 
> Welcome to the club kid, now you know.
> 
> You don't know me very well, I have posted more than once on the issue of TWO COATS being an important part of the paint procedure for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not the paint will hide and achieve coverage in one coat.
> 
> You are stating as fact that I use cheap roller covers, and that I want to get the job done in one coat.
> 
> And the actual fact that God and I both know is true, is that you are *WRONG.*
> 
> How is it that you can state such an absolute with zero knowledge? Do you have a crystal ball in your ass?
> 
> 
> 
> *:blink:*
> 
> Did you recently figure this out as well? Someone should give you a cookie or a gold star or something.
> 
> *-------------*
> 
> The other variable here is, MAYBE YOU ARE CONTENT with a finish that I would actually consider crap. Have you considered that possibility?
> 
> And maybe THAT is the reason why you don't have a problem with the paint.
> 
> I know people who don't use a vacuum when prepping their finish work, and who just use a duster brush, and when asked if they use a vacuum they reply "I never have a problem just using a duster".
> 
> In their mind there is no problem, but their finish work is full of all kinds of dust and hairs and imperfections.
> 
> Without seeing your work, and without you seeing mine, there is no way to determine this variable.
> 
> *---------------*
> 
> Listen here dude.
> 
> I stated my experience, even fairly recent experiences working with Behr paint.
> 
> Now maybe you have had DIFFERENT experience. Maybe the latest incarnation of Behr paint does react differently then my experience I don't know.
> 
> If you would have came on here saying that you don't have those problems, there really would have been no way for me to say otherwise, or know that you did not got excellent results.
> 
> But instead you come here, talking out of your ass, telling me some **** about my procedures that I know a fact is not true, and making me seriously question your accuracy regarding ANY OTHER MATTER, regarding painting including whether or not your results look like crap, and your jobs are not completed in an efficient systematic fashion.
> 
> *Which I am leaning towards now based on your asinine, sophomoric, "revelations" about very BASIC painting 101 technical knowledge. *
> 
> 
> 
> Really? well, you might want to think about not coming on this forum "saying anything bad" about the skills of other painters on this forum, when in fact you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> You also might want to think about trying not to insult people while contradicting yourself such as in this example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*ARE*_ you qualified do this? You already stated conclusively that not following the manufacturers recommendations is "STUPID".
> 
> So you are STUPID according to your own definition. How does being stupid make you "qualified" to do something?
> 
> At least RCON was not actually disregarding manufacturers instructions as a procedure he would do in an acutal job environment, he *intentionally* did it because he thought it might help isolate something for testing purposes. I have no doubt that he understands that when painting a red wall, you want to prime with a blocking color first.
> 
> What you have stated on the other hand is that you DO DISREGARD the manufacturers instructions as a matter of your actual procedure.
> 
> ---------
> 
> *Behr in mind: *Rcon's post on this thread whether accurate, or not, were NOT against *BillyB*. His posts were against Behr products.
> 
> *Your* posts however, *WERE against Rcon.*
> 
> Can you comprehend the difference?
> 
> ---------
> 
> So far, the members of this forum have absolutely NOTHING to go on regarding your actual technical abilities, or experience in the trade.
> 
> All you have really presented is a bunch of hot air punctuated with the occasional abrasive insult and retarded assumption.
> 
> So basically if we are to determine the effectiveness and quality of Behr products based on your recommendation, and your credibility as a poster in this forum, then Behr is failing the test quite miserably.
> 
> ----------
> 
> I would suggest trying to not to be so impudent and disrespectful in the future.
> 
> :thumbup:


LOL. IALMAO. As soon as I read his post (which for the most part was somewhat respectful), then he kinda dogged LC - I knew there would be some fireworks.


----------



## jack pauhl

Do you guys work? holy crap I missed the whole thing. lol OK heres the deal, I have a TON of stuff to say up to post #58 (i stopped reading) but its crunch time on my xmas shopping and I have not had a minute to pick up paint yet to do this simple test. Nice coverage on that BEHR red, so many paints cant do that.

Zinsser primers are King. Expect no less from them. Let me get thru the holiday and post back.

Hope everyone has a nice Holiday. Nice work Rcon.

Jack
[the job killer]


----------



## Last Craftsman

RCP said:


> Last Crafstman, :notworthy::notworthy:
> BillyB, I would strongly suggest that you spend some reading on this forum. You will find there are some very talented craftsmen, LC being at the top of the list!


I appreciate that Chris.

But for the record, I do not feel at all that I am at the "top" of the list.

I am being 100% honest that out of the regular posters, there are many members of the forum here who have an equal degree of skill as I do.

And there are many regular posters who I can tell have much *more* experience than I do in certain aspects of residential painting.

I think it is well established that out of the 25 or so regular posters, we all excel at different aspects of the trade.

I think most of them prefer to not spend so much time writing, so they make less of a strong impression when it comes to internet forums.

-------------

Regarding my post to BillyB. I did misread something he wrote, then make an inaccurate conclusion based on that. I noticed it right when I posted, but it was not the type of thing I wanted to edit out because usually someone has already read it, then it looks like you are trying to back out of something, so I left it. 

Not that it was hard to misread considering the contradictory nature of his statement.

In any case, I will addess it if he responds, and correct the statement.

The vast majority of my post is rock solid, and I think it's quite obvious to all why the conflict erupted in the first place.

:yes:


----------



## Rcon

BillyB said:


> *Did I say add 20% water somewhere??? *
> No, but you said *'substantial amount'*. How much would you consider a substantial amount? I, for one, don't think of 6.2% being substantial.
> *On the can it says add a 1/2 pint of water per gallon if you want. It can actually handle much more then that and not effect the durability of the paint. I'm qualified enough to be able to handle adding a 1/2 pint of water to a gallon of paint and not have it "sag,run, and pit".
> *I already said that I 'do not need' to thin my paints for any reason - they work just like they're supposed to right out of the can, even for touch ups. If I needed to thin my paint for spraying (which I don't unless i'm using a tip size smaller than a 312) I would not be worried about "my paint" sagging, running and pitting". Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for your paint.
> *As far as your latest tests, I'm sorry but the manufacturer of the paint says it takes 30 days for a full cure, even longer for darker colors. So far your 0-5. *
> The manufacturer recommendations on my paint say the same thing: 30 days to cure. They were both given an equal amount of time before any testing was done, so neither had any advantage over the other. I'll keep the board around for another 29 days though and do them again if that'll make you feel better...


With everything you're saying here i'm inclined to believe that you either have a financial interest in Behr or you work for them. You don't sound like a painter or a contractor. So i'm just going to ignore your posts from now on.


----------



## chrisn

Originally Posted by *BillyB*  
_*Load the brush, hit the suface quick and leave it to settle on its own. This paint dries pretty quick, the more you play with it the worse the finish. Not that anyone here needs a lesson on painting, but just telling you what I've learned. *_




My past experiences with Behr, leaving it to settle on it's own was the WHOLE PROBLEM. Brush it on normally and come back 30 seconds; 30 minutes later and it would be 5 or 6 inches down the wall from where you started. No other paint that I have ever applied has ever done this. I rarely incorporate any additives to paint, never water but occasionally some floetrol.


----------



## Picky Painter

Well I've read this entire thread now, and if BillyB is an actual painter without vested interest in Behr, I'll eat GeorgeZ's epoxy encrusted corona.


----------



## BillyB

Well gentlemen, thank you for your time. I thought this site might have more than 12 people that contribute to it on a daily basis, but I guess not. It's just the same rhetoric over and over again. Blah Blah Blah....I'm glad I could entertain you all for a few days, it was just as much fun for me as it was for you. Sorry that so many of you are pathetically threatened by Behr. It sounds like it keeps most of you up at night.(Literally, Alec WAS up all night! LMFAO). Enjoy each others company, it sounds like it's all the 12 of you have. It *was* enlightening to hear that many of you do use *Behr* and like it a lot. Smart people can't ignore the value and quality. Good Health and Happiness!

*Merry Christmas To All and To All a GOODNITE!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## LOSTinDETAILS

BillyB said:


> *Merry Christmas To All and To All a GOODNITE!!!!!!!!!!*


Same to you! Smart money says when this thread has come and gone, so will you. Hang around a little longer than a week and you may have a better opinion of our group dynamics.


----------



## daArch

bye bye billy b - been bemusing beholding your bombastic biased Behr beliefs.


----------



## George Z

Good bye BillyBEHR.

Stop shouting, you will wake up chrisn
he is up early everyday.


----------



## Workaholic

Picky Painter said:


> Well I've read this entire thread now, and if BillyB is an actual painter without vested interest in Behr, I'll eat GeorgeZ's epoxy encrusted corona.


:thumbup:


----------



## Last Craftsman

BillyB said:


> I thought this site might have more than 12 people that contribute to it on a daily basis, but I guess not.


Quality...not quantity. We prefer to separate the wheat from the chaff. ( good bye ) 



Don't let the crystal doorknob hit your crystal ball on the way out.

:lol:


----------



## deach

Wow I just read all the way thru this and all I can say is "WOW" I need to check in more often I'm missing the fireworks. At any rate Merry Christmas to one and all.


----------



## Rcon

Meh, not important.


----------



## Wolfgang

Think this thread has run it's course yet?


----------



## Rcon

Wolfgang said:


> Think this thread has run it's course yet?


lol, not yet. 

We still need a response from JP, and I still need 28 days to do conculsive durability tests on the Behr (per some of the responses on this thread).


----------



## chrisn

George Z said:


> Good bye BillyBEHR.
> 
> Stop shouting, you will wake up chrisn
> he is up early everyday.


He certainly did not wake me up but good riddance to the billybehr and as Mr.Bill succinctly said

"bye bye billy b - been bemusing beholding your bombastic biased Behr beliefs". 

and as others have posted,I am betting he is neither a painter or contractor but just a plain old ugly troll


----------



## daArch

FYI,

billy b wrote in his profile that he is a
"Commercial Real Estate Developer"


----------



## chrisn

daArch said:


> FYI,
> 
> billy b wrote in his profile that he is a
> "Commercial Real Estate Developer"


 
That would explain it, I guess:blink:


----------



## friskypainter

BillyB said:


> Alec,
> If you don't apply a product based on what the manufacturer recommends then the results have absolutely no meaning. It's like buying a Ferrari and putting low octane gas in it. Then driving it on a road course and complaining about the poor performance of the vehicle. Just because the driver was to stupid to follow the directions on the gas cap- "Premium Unleaded Only!"
> I know bashing Behr is a sport here, but it would be interesting to see what you would think of any product if you actually used them the right way. You took a lot of time, effort and money to make the Behr product look bad, and it's very obvious. The sad part is that it has zero effect on how much Behr paint is going to be sold tomorrow at HD, which I guess is what your trying to accomplish? And it certainly isn't going to change any of the minds on this Forum. If Behr or any other brand of paint doesn't have anything to offer you, why not talk about the things you do like?
> Example, Zinsser is an ok primer for certain things, but not my favorite. But, I do like to use Behr primers with Behr paint since the primer is designed around their paint. The Primer pigment is ground extra fine which helps level out the paint, especially higher sheens. Behr Primer under Behr Paint means Behr stands behind it with no questions asked and no arguing about if it was the paint or (zinnser)primer that failed.
> I don't like Behr stains, but I do like California. So if anyone wants some positive feedback on California stains I would be more then happy to talk about it.
> It sounds like you have a lot of time on your hands, I'm sure you could give some really great advice on what coatings you actually LIKE.
> Are you really going to do "impact" testing on paint, or "heat" resistance...chemicals???? Most of all "Alcohol"! Please don't waste any good alcohol on paint!
> Save your energy too, I can only imagine the fits your going to have when *Martha Stuart Paint* comes into the HD in a couple months! Every woman in the world is going to want to use it! Probably going to knock Behr right off the shelf.


BillyB,

I have been reading you, and you really make complete sense to me. Thanks for taking time to straighten this guy out


----------



## friskypainter

BillyB,

I have been reading you and you make perfect sense to me. Thanks for straightening this guy out.


----------



## Workaholic

friskypainter said:


> BillyB,
> 
> I have been reading you and you make perfect sense to me. Thanks for straightening this guy out.


Working part time at HD has affected your judgement.


----------



## friskypainter

maybe so.


----------



## Workaholic

friskypainter said:


> maybe so.


Actually Billy B, was a troll whose only purpose of being here was to talk good about Behr and HD. He even came back under a different name to talk about how Behr and HD are the best. 

If Behr works for you then it works. For myself who does not have the power to jump behind the counter or the conections to make sure my stuff is done correctly by whoever happens to be behind the counter, it just does not make sense to have poor customer service and to pay the the same or more for products that I prefer not to use.


----------



## AztecPainting

I've been reading this since Rcon started his test, first of all THANKS for that, I got a call from a guy that needed his barber shop painted, really low budget but I needed the cash, he gave me the colours and he decided on red for his trim, I went with HP2000 red base. Sorry about the pics I took this pics with my cellphone. The green trim is how used to be, the Red trim is only one coat. I'll post the finish product (2 coats) in the next. Ok


----------



## AztecPainting

Sorry about this pic, I know it's prett dark but you guys have the idea, 2 coats of HP2000 over that green paint, I didn't use primer at all on trim, just sanded down pretty good. BTW I didn't do that wall paper, when I came back to take some pics it was already there... Tell me what do you guys think about that red trim... Cheers...


----------



## friskypainter

Sean, some very good insight and highly accurate points concerning HD, I agree with you. Sheer volume and customer flow on any given day may and result result in "bad timing". It is what I call the uncontrollable event of "timing" at HD that can result in a confrontation an associate with real knowledge and skills in their department or someone who was passing down the isle from plumbing en route to the washroom. The building itself hinders locating the proper personnel or "anyone at all when you need them". This is an issue HD struggles with. You as customer must ask then, is this your department? If not, whom is the real paint expert here? Then, further pick brains and discern whom you will be conversing with at the paint counter. This holds true for any retail establishment. I have "my guy" at SW or JC Licht/ Epco paints. It's just the way life goes. Some know more than others. Look for the gems.


----------



## Workaholic

Looks good Luis


----------



## Rcon

friskypainter said:


> BillyB,
> 
> I have been reading you, and you really make complete sense to me. Thanks for taking time to straighten this guy out


Interesting.


----------



## AztecPainting

Well I've never underestimate HP2000 I knew it was gonna be ok. Although I've been forced in the past to use Behr because a GC ask me too, but never never again, I painted all his houses for over a year, f... up all my brushes somehow and I do take care of my brushes (Wooster) I still have couple of my best wooster brushes since 3 years ago and still working out, that is why I refused to use behr, now, I have not idea why behr destroyed a lot of new wooster brushes? I always take care of this babies exactly the same...


----------



## Rcon

AztecPainting said:


> Sorry about this pic, I know it's prett dark but you guys have the idea, 2 coats of HP2000 over that green paint, I didn't use primer at all on trim, just sanded down pretty good. BTW I didn't do that wall paper, when I came back to take some pics it was already there... Tell me what do you guys think about that red trim... Cheers...


Looks good! :thumbsup:


----------



## johnthepainter

i like behr ultra sg for trim paint, great stuff, ill definetely buy more of it.

i just stroked 2 gallons of it on a bunch of crown i just installed 

layed down really nice, looks great, and the price was great compared to paint stores

the service was great at homers too, i got out of there faster than i do at the paint store.

alec, the pics and your dedication were as equally great as behr ultra! fantastic!


----------



## Wolfgang

high fibre said:


> i like behr ultra sg for trim paint, great stuff, ill definetely buy more of it.
> 
> i just stroked 2 gallons of it on a bunch of crown i just installed
> 
> layed down really nice, looks great, and the price was great compared to paint stores
> 
> the service was great at homers too, i got out of there faster than i do at the paint store.
> 
> 
> 
> alec, the pics and your dedication were as equally great as behr ultra! fantastic!


Huh???:blink:


----------



## johnthepainter

yes, i like behr ultra sg

good stuff

my guys loved it also

looks great, lays down nice, good price

the service was great also

ill buy more of this material

i typically use aura


----------



## johnthepainter

i think the bacardi he drinks is garbage, but different strokes

i like appleton estate.


----------



## johnthepainter

could you please conduct these tests using 200?

a lot of guys here use that.


----------



## parodi

high fibre said:


> yes, i like behr ultra sg
> 
> good stuff
> 
> my guys loved it also
> 
> looks great, lays down nice, good price
> 
> the service was great also
> 
> ill buy more of this material
> 
> i typically use aura


I am a paperhanger but used Behr a few times in the past because a customer asked me to paint inside a closet door or something small like that. The interior trim gloss of several years ago sucked.

But, a painter in the local organization I am in (www.bcmnetwork.org) called me to tell me that he had used the new Behr Ultra Plus and he was blown away at how good it looked. The Behr line is taking Aura head on only at a reduced price.

So I called Home Depot and got in touch with their national trainer and we will be seeing her in our monthly meeting this coming tuesday the 23rd in the Home Depot in Paramus NJ. If anybody is in the Bergen County NJ Area (or can get there) email me ([email protected]) and you can be my guest at the meeting.


----------



## BESMAN

i did an estimate a couple days ago...homeowner had some guys paint cabinets with behr. She said they had painted them 10 days ago and they are still tacky to the touch...i am going to repaint the rest of the place with BM but i was curious if you guys knew why those cabinets would still be tacky after so long? They sure looked like garbage too....guys must not know what sandpaper does.


----------



## NCPaint1

parodi said:


> I am a paperhanger but used Behr a few times in the past because a customer asked me to paint inside a closet door or something small like that. The interior trim gloss of several years ago sucked.
> 
> But, a painter in the local organization I am in (www.bcmnetwork.org) called me to tell me that he had used the new Behr Ultra Plus and he was blown away at how good it looked. The Behr line is taking Aura head on only at a reduced price.
> 
> So I called Home Depot and got in touch with their national trainer and we will be seeing her in our monthly meeting this coming tuesday the 23rd in the Home Depot in Paramus NJ. If anybody is in the Bergen County NJ Area (or can get there) email me ([email protected]) and you can be my guest at the meeting.


Not even close to Aura's technology...........Aura = 100% acrylic colorants, combined with color lock technology.


----------



## Rcon

Wolfgang said:


> Huh???:blink:


Couldn't agree more!!


----------



## johnthepainter

hp 2000

ive never heard of it.

i typically use aura.

how does hp 2000 compare to a really good paint?


----------



## Workaholic

high fibre said:


> gp 2000
> 
> ive never heard of it.
> 
> i typically use aura.
> 
> how does gp 2000 compare to a really good paint?


It's a Canadian brand.


----------



## johnthepainter

the epic battle of mediocrity.


----------



## AztecPainting

I don't think you guys have HP2000 in the states. It is high performance waterborne acrylic latex.

- For interior and exterior surfaces.
- Inhibits mildew growth.
- Exceptional adhesion.
- Scrub resistant.
- In eggshell, pearl, semi-gloss or gloss.
- Made in Canada.


----------



## Rcon

high fibre said:


> hp 2000
> 
> ive never heard of it.
> 
> i typically use aura.
> 
> how does hp 2000 compare to a really good paint?


HP2000 is a really good paint. Good for int/ext and sticks to oil without a primer. You haven't heard of it because it's not available in the states. 

I haven't compared it to Aura. 

Don't know what you mean by 'battle of mediocrity'. If you haven't tried the stuff maybe you should before you call it mediocre.


----------



## chrisn

I think Mr fibre has had WAY to much to drink or was stuck in an enclosed space painting original oil Kilz with no respirator.:whistling2:
Or is just plain being facetious:yes:


----------



## johnthepainter

some people think mcnuggets and bacardi are really good.


----------



## johnthepainter

some people think 200 is really good.


----------



## johnthepainter

some people think obamacare is really good.


----------



## NCPaint1

high fibre said:


> some people think mcnuggets and bacardi are really good.


Mcnuggets are ok by themselves, so is bacardi......I've never tried mixing them. Is that sort of a Nuggatini? 

I thought I had weird taste because I dip my fries in my frosty. :yes:


----------



## parodi

NCPaint1 said:


> Not even close to Aura's technology...........Aura = 100% acrylic colorants, combined with color lock technology.


I'll check that out. As far as I can see so far, S-W Duration Home is the big competitor to Aura. Doesn't SW use only acrylic tints now too?


----------



## NCPaint1

parodi said:


> I'll check that out. As far as I can see so far, S-W Duration Home is the big competitor to Aura. Doesn't SW use only acrylic tints now too?


As of now...no. There are only a few companies Benjamin Moore, Mythic, and yes Behr ( fresh aire line in limited colors ). Im sure that there are others, but those are the ones I could think of right now. :thumbsup:


----------



## DeanV

freshaire is not behr, but i think made by ppg


----------



## johnthepainter

aura has no equal

how does 200 do in this test?

a lot of guys here use that junk.


----------



## Workaholic

high fibre said:


> how does 200 do in this test?
> 
> a lot of guys here use that junk.


Sounds like you will have to do the Behr vrs Promar 200 side by side comaprison, Alec does not have a SW near him in Canada. Can you imagine? So John it's up to you to be unbiased on this one.


----------



## NCPaint1

DeanV said:


> freshaire is not behr, but i think made by ppg


Correct sir, It is not Behr. Sold at the big orange box none the less, and no custom colors, only THEIR standard colors.


----------



## friskypainter

missed quoted , my bad.


----------



## friskypainter

freshaire is a glidden product . O voc. It utilizes an organic tint system. A plastic pouch is inserted into the 100% recycle able can. Lid is plastic too. NO rust!!!! It has less than perfect blocking/ hiding capabilities of other "low" 50 g/l voc paints


----------



## Workaholic

friskypainter said:


> That is really well said, I am not joking either. I see your point totally. Hey, Sean, I am having trouble with this, if I post a comment, I would like to be able to go back to it say the next day and see if any one commented. I am super lost as to how to do this. Is there a way to bookmark it?
> frisky


You can subscribe to the thread and will get a notification if anyone posts anything new in said thread. It is a good feature but it can be a bit much if the thread is really popular. Select the thread tools closer to the top of the page. 

Since I log on everyday I just hit the new posts button.


----------



## friskypainter

Workaholic said:


> Actually Billy B, was a troll whose only purpose of being here was to talk good about Behr and HD. He even came back under a different name to talk about how Behr and HD are the best.
> 
> If Behr works for you then it works. For myself who does not have the power to jump behind the counter or the conections to make sure my stuff is done correctly by whoever happens to be behind the counter, it just does not make sense to have poor customer service and to pay the the same or more for products that I prefer not to use.


That is really well said, I am not joking either. I see your point totally. Hey, Sean, I am having trouble with this, if I post a comment, I would like to be able to go back to it say the next day and see if any one commented. I am super lost as to how to do this. Is there a way to bookmark it?
frisky


----------



## friskypainter

thank you


----------



## johnthepainter

i used behr ultra sg again yesterday on trim and doors.

it laid down great, covered great, looks fantastic, and the price was lower than lesser paints at the paint store.

the service was great also, got right in and out.

the homeowner loved it, and i beamed with pride.

thank you behr for producing such a wonderful product.


----------



## Wolfgang

Cant we just let these Behr posts die a silent death?


----------



## chrisn

Wolfgang said:


> Cant we just let these Behr posts die a silent death?


I can live with that


----------



## Slopmeyer

Again with the Behr Bashing! As with all paint manufactures there is good and bad paints. SW has trouble with yellows, Ben has trouble with reds and Behr has trouble with plain white. Life goes on. I have no problem with their wall paints but don't like their semi. Adjust and move on, but quit bitc#ing about it!
Use it or don't


----------



## Steve Richards

941owassard said:


> Again with the Behr Bashing! As with all paint manufactures there is good and bad paints. SW has trouble with yellows, Ben has trouble with reds and Behr has trouble with plain white. Life goes on. I have no problem with their wall paints but don't like their semi. Adjust and move on, but quit bitc#ing about it!
> Use it or don't


Calm down dude...that was 3 years ago.

Many here have become Behr lovers since then.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

Steve Richards said:


> Calm down dude...that was 3 years ago.
> 
> Many here have become Behr lovers since then.


The problem I see with the guys bashing Behr is that they have never use the product or if they did, it was years ago. 

As of right now Behr Ultra works great, I haven't had any problems going over builder's flat, 2 coats on any color and covers and looks great. 

I never do a one coat job even if using Aura, Duration Home or Accolade.


----------



## coolboatguy

i read that whole thing ready to stand up for behr and people ended up loving it?? crappy.


----------



## chrisn

coolboatguy said:


> i read that whole thing ready to stand up for behr and people ended up loving it?? crappy.


 
people and products change after 3 years, I still will not go and buy it. I have used it and it worked OK,( not my choice)Would I recommend it?


No


----------



## Workaholic

941owassard said:


> Again with the Behr Bashing! As with all paint manufactures there is good and bad paints. SW has trouble with yellows, Ben has trouble with reds and Behr has trouble with plain white. Life goes on. I have no problem with their wall paints but don't like their semi. Adjust and move on, but quit bitc#ing about it!
> Use it or don't


Damn, you brought this back to life for that? Some love it some hate it so what.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

I like because is Paint and Primer in ONE :whistling2:


----------



## Workaholic

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I like because is Paint and Primer in ONE :whistling2:


Naturally.


----------



## chrisn

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I like because is Paint and Primer in ONE :whistling2:


don't forget stain blocker:blink:


----------



## Gymschu

Any opinions on the new Behr product, "Deckover?"


----------



## chrisn

as my mom would say " rabble rouser"


----------



## jack pauhl

941owassard said:


> Again with the Behr Bashing! As with all paint manufactures there is good and bad paints. SW has trouble with yellows, Ben has trouble with reds and Behr has trouble with plain white. Life goes on. I have no problem with their wall paints but don't like their semi. Adjust and move on, but quit bitc#ing about it!
> Use it or don't


Hate to be the bad news but if you are unable to 2 coat white BEHR Premium Plus semi-gloss over black then its a technique or brush related issue. I have never needed more than 2 coats over anything, any color, any scenario. It always works and very easily. 

I've worked side-by-side with other painters with BEHR and I've seen streaky cuts vs solid cuts, again if one guy is doing it but the guy next to him isn't, that is not paint related. If you take that same guy with the less than desired results, his technique, his brush and his paint... he produces the same result. So the poor review should go to that guy, not the paint.


----------



## Jmayspaint

jack pauhl said:


> Hate to be the bad news but if you are unable to 2 coat white BEHR Premium Plus semi-gloss over black then its a technique or brush related issue. I have never needed more than 2 coats over anything, any color, any scenario. It always works and very easily.
> 
> I've worked side-by-side with other painters with BEHR and I've seen streaky cuts vs solid cuts, again if one guy is doing it but the guy next to him isn't, that is not paint related. If you take that same guy with the less than desired results, his technique, his brush and his paint... he produces the same result. So the poor review should go to that guy, not the paint.


I hear ya man. Modern latex paint will cover darn near anything in two coats. 


If your having coverage problems, maybe try one of these?


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

joshmays1976 said:


> If your having coverage problems, maybe try one of these?


Nice. Do you use that to spread the paint on the walls as if it was Venetian plaster?


----------



## Jmayspaint

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Nice. Do you use that to spread the paint on the walls as if it was Venetian plaster?


Yea, makes a cool textured pattern.


----------



## kdpaint

jack pauhl said:


> Hate to be the bad news but if you are unable to 2 coat white BEHR Premium Plus semi-gloss over black then its a technique or brush related issue. I have never needed more than 2 coats over anything, any color, any scenario. It always works and very easily.
> 
> I've worked side-by-side with other painters with BEHR and I've seen streaky cuts vs solid cuts, again if one guy is doing it but the guy next to him isn't, that is not paint related. If you take that same guy with the less than desired results, his technique, his brush and his paint... he produces the same result. So the poor review should go to that guy, not the paint.


Jack raises a good point; a lot of us operate under the assumption that painters actually know how to apply paint properly, and have the brains to adjust their methods to account for different types of coatings. Unfortunately this is not always true. Many painters use the same 2 or so products all the time, when you give them something different, many of them cannot get over any sort of learning curve, and blame the product, saying "this paint blows."


----------



## Zoomer

Kd and Jack such a true observation.


----------



## mudbone

Why such the scare over the behr?
The behr has come out of hiding shouldn't we do the same as painters?


----------



## sincere painter

I used behr paint and primer in one in a 12x17 room in my basement a couple years ago. I thought it stunk, it has a strong smell to it. And it seems to dry too fast and that usually means less leveling. But fast drying seems to be the cheap way of providing better coverage. Who cares about coverage as long as it goes in 2? I'm not worried about primary colors covering; I'm smart enough to use the right paint and don't use them too often anyway. 

Recently, I'm using behr paint and primer again and I'm getting a nasty sore throat from it and lots of allergy-like problems and its pretty annoying. The ho wanted it because it was on sale and I thought why not, I'll try it one more time; I needed the store to be convenient too. I had to put my respirator on because my throat was getting so sore but still had many allergy problems afterward. What's in this stuff, ragweed pollen or what? Also, I noticed my prefilters on my respirator were spent so I'm going to change them and if that doesn't bring some relief, I'll have to get a fan. Can't take this stuff. I might have to refuse to use it next time and find a way to deal with driving to the better suppliers. 

By the way, this is deep tone I'm using. Has anyone ever heard that the voc's actually come from the tint and darker paints have more voc's?? Trying to be just with my decision about behr.


----------



## sincere painter

Also, fast dry is nice for extremely textured walls where the applied paint has to dry quickly before it runs out of the cavities in the texture. Just sayin.


----------



## jack pauhl

kdpaint said:


> Jack raises a good point; a lot of us operate under the assumption that painters actually know how to apply paint properly, and have the brains to adjust their methods to account for different types of coatings. Unfortunately this is not always true. Many painters use the same 2 or so products all the time, when you give them something different, many of them cannot get over any sort of learning curve, and blame the product, saying "this paint blows."


The perception really is nonsense and I aim to look past that for the truth on how paints perform. Some people hold their high dollar paints on a tall pedestal and a little enlightenment of the truth of what their money is being spent on goes a long way. When the industry is testing for about 5 or so criteria and I am testing for 24 there is definitely going to be a huge difference. It is not easy to find a well-rounded paint product but apparently BEHR finds exception to that rule. 

I'm not saying BEHR is the answer to all things paint but it is the answer to a large majority of issues painters talk about here on PaintTalk and also solutions to problems I see working with other paint contractors on their jobs. I see too many painters painting things 4 times to achieve their desired result and even at 4 coats they are not (in some cases) achieving what BEHR will do in 1 coat. 

My days on building layers of paint are long gone.


----------



## mudbone

jack pauhl said:


> The perception really is nonsense and I aim to look past that for the truth on how paints perform. Some people hold their high dollar paints on a tall pedestal and a little enlightenment of the truth of what their money is being spent on goes a long way. When the industry is testing for about 5 or so criteria and I am testing for 24 there is definitely going to be a huge difference. It is not easy to find a well-rounded paint product but apparently BEHR finds exception to that rule.
> 
> I'm not saying BEHR is the answer to all things paint but it is the answer to a large majority of issues painters talk about here on PaintTalk and also solutions to problems I see working with other paint contractors on their jobs. I see too many painters painting things 4 times to achieve their desired result and even at 4 coats they are not (in some cases) achieving what BEHR will do in 1 coat.
> 
> My days on building layers of paint are long gone.


 Jack your a true Pauhl-a behr!:yes:


----------



## chrisn

jack pauhl said:


> The perception really is nonsense and I aim to look past that for the truth on how paints perform. Some people hold their high dollar paints on a tall pedestal and a little enlightenment of the truth of what their money is being spent on goes a long way. When the industry is testing for about 5 or so criteria and I am testing for 24 there is definitely going to be a huge difference. It is not easy to find a well-rounded paint product but apparently BEHR finds exception to that rule.
> 
> I'm not saying BEHR is the answer to all things paint but it is the answer to a large majority of issues painters talk about here on PaintTalk and also solutions to problems I see working with other paint contractors on their jobs. I see too many painters painting things 4 times to achieve their desired result and even at 4 coats they are not (in some cases) achieving what BEHR will do in 1 coat.
> 
> My days on building layers of paint are long gone.


 
:laughing:


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> The perception really is nonsense and I aim to look past that for the truth on how paints perform. Some people hold their high dollar paints on a tall pedestal and a little enlightenment of the truth of what their money is being spent on goes a long way. When the industry is testing for about 5 or so criteria and I am testing for 24 there is definitely going to be a huge difference. It is not easy to find a well-rounded paint product but apparently BEHR finds exception to that rule.
> 
> I'm not saying BEHR is the answer to all things paint but it is the answer to a large majority of issues painters talk about here on PaintTalk and also solutions to problems I see working with other paint contractors on their jobs. I see too many painters painting things 4 times to achieve their desired result and even at 4 coats they are not (in some cases) achieving what BEHR will do in 1 coat.
> 
> My days on building layers of paint are long gone.


Not sure where you get your info, Brian, but I end up on multiple conference calls weekly with paint mfrs, none of whom have heard of you or your alias. And btw, several of the ones I speak with test in more than 5 categories. 

Please, one of these days, substantiate these blanket statements you make.


----------



## TJ Paint

Since when did it take 4 COATS for coverage? It's 2013 isn't it?


----------



## vermontpainter

TJ Paint said:


> Since when did it take 4 COATS for coverage? It's 2013 isn't it?


Evidently, there are just a but ton of bad painters in the Cleveland area using some junk butt paint, and poor Brian ends up having to clean up after them all.


----------



## chrisn

vermontpainter said:


> Evidently, there are just a but ton of bad painters in the Cleveland area using some junk butt paint, and poor Brian ends up having to clean up after them all.


 
but , he can do it with one coat on all:laughing:


----------



## jack pauhl

TJ Paint said:


> Since when did it take 4 COATS for coverage? It's 2013 isn't it?


Someones top of the line wall paint takes 4 to 5 right now.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

jack pauhl said:


> Someones top of the line wall paint takes 4 to 5 right now.


SW Emerald  I found out the hard way


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Evidently, there are just a but ton of bad painters in the Cleveland area using some junk butt paint, and poor Brian ends up having to clean up after them all.


That previous top of the line paint you spoke highly of in the past takes 4 and its not the paint I mentioned to TJ in previous post. That one was from a different company. It's not Cleveland, its here on PT too and guys have posted photos of what 2 coats of top of the line paint looks like and all I saw was a paint job that was not complete yet just like I see here.. wall patches flashing. Don't make it sound like you're immune to the norm Scott, I know better to believe your gallons perform different than other paint contractors. Product "capabilities" have nothing to do with experience.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Not sure where you get your info, Brian, but I end up on multiple conference calls weekly with paint mfrs, none of whom have heard of you or your alias. And btw, several of the ones I speak with test in more than 5 categories.
> 
> Please, one of these days, substantiate these blanket statements you make.


You are mislead. I am not going to tell you where I get my info but I assure you some of those BM and SW products must pass only 5, (pay attention NCPaint) two of which are completely irrelevant to a painter. It is no surprise to me after testing a minimum of 24 criteria that my findings are never all that great to talk about. I test product how a painter uses them in real world environments. Lab tests are proving to be poor testing methods time and time again. It doesnt take a phone call to a paint company to figure how how they test product. It takes a phone call to confirm what they dont do. It just takes an afternoon to get acquainted and about 120-150 hours of one-on-one time with it. Did you know one of the "evaluations" for the Jodi Arias trial only spent 44 hours for a life in prison or death sentence defense? Its true.

I have the 5 in front of me and its silly just like masking tape was never designed to work over 50% humidity as you recently found out. Do you think if masking tape was tested like painters use tape there would be a wide spread problem with using tape over 50% humidity? Paints are no different. The more I dug into testing the more I realized paint is not designed to meet the criteria I use as a painter. Adhesion in paints is weak because the standard for testing adhesion is very poor and greatly outdated. There was never a time in paint history that adhesion test was ever worth a damn and it is down right ridiculous paint is tested that way.

Define several and dont believe everything people tell you.  You can call me when you are unsure about something I post Scott, I will gladly bring you up to speed. You would be shocked at the stories I have to share about how products are tested. It depends on the product use so there are a couple more criteria for exterior product over 5. It's still nothing in comparison to what I test for. You know, the things that are important to a painter.


----------



## NCPaint1

How did I get drug into this? I've been keeping quiet about this topic.


----------



## Stonehampaintdept

NCPaint1 said:


> How did I get drug into this? I've been keeping quiet about this topic.


Guilty by association? You sell the other stuff so you must be a valid target.:yes:


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> You are mislead.


Hate it when that happens! :laughing:


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Don't make it sound like you're immune to the norm Scott,


Brian

My company paints alot of houses, interior and exterior. The "norm" for us is a 3 coat system. It sounds boring and old school, I know, but it works. 

If you are finding that you need 4-5 coats for coverage, you need to keep an open mind that it could be an issue on your end. No one ever likes to hear that, but sometimes when we stick to basics, things work well. It's fun to push the envelope and try to take products outside their intended uses or application methods, but we can't start calling that the norm.


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> Brian
> 
> My company paints alot of houses, interior and exterior. The "norm" for us is a 3 coat system. It sounds boring and old school, I know, but it works.


The problem is each individual painter has different knowledge and expectation. 

My company paints 2-4 custom homes a week and my 2 coat system is 100% better than all of the 3 coat systems I've seen around here in OK. If you want to spend more time and money painting 1 more coat on the wall, that's fine and dandy as long as it looks good and meets your expectations. My 2 coat system is not simply based on looks as the end result. I have yet to find a "norm 3 coat system" that can meet my all my expeditions. 

I get hired and payed sometimes twice as much more than the other guy because I get jobs finished 1day sooner than the other guy. To my clients, that's value. I have to make systems based on my expectations. 

JP is about being innovative and changing the paint industry. I'm all for that and so are thousands of other painters across the world. PT is a small community of painters who happen to like being social.


----------



## vermontpainter

Hey Troy, 

Glad to hear you're doing so well out there in OK!

These 2-3 houses a week, are they new or repaint? 

If resi repaint, I totally agree with you and Brian that 2 coats ought to do.


----------



## johnthepainter

i like behr ultra,,,,nice wall paint.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

high fibre said:


> i like behr ultra,,,,nice wall paint.


Yes. Very good product


----------



## johnthepainter

agreed,,,much better than 200, super spec, regal,,and other crap many painters apply daily.


----------



## DeanV

Hey. Regal select is our favorite wall paint. 

How shiny is Behr premium plus ultra matte compared to Regal Select Matte?


----------



## johnthepainter

im not sure of the angular sheen of either,,,jackpaul prolly knows though,,lol.

im not a paint nerd, and like what i like,,,,,,ive had great results with 200, super spec and regal,,,,,,as well as behr ultra. and id prefer to spread ultra over these others.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

DeanV said:


> Hey. Regal select is our favorite wall paint.
> 
> How shiny is Behr premium plus ultra matte compared to Regal Select Matte?


big difference Dean. This is Behr Ultra flat enamel. Matte ultra is their ceiling paint and its available on whites and pastel only.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

But it's hard to believe that a $ 26ish product from Homedepot performs way better than any product from SW including Emerald. not all my customers can afford BM Aura and every single time someone wants a deep red, bright yellow my first tought is Behr Ultra. I have used plenty of it.

Thanks to Jack I decided to give a try and I was very impressed. how can Homedepot have this great wall paint and Sherwin Williams can't come out with a product closer to Ultra after all of these years. 
Emerald is nothing close and is almost 3 times the cost of Behr Ultra.


----------



## alanbarrington

Said before and I will say it again that **** ain't worth the can its put in. That floor that I tried that one part epoxy on failed ,so now i had to strip it prime .and guess what i went to Ben Moore pick up porch and floor and put one fat coat "bada bing, "done see rest my case " junk"

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> Hey Troy,
> 
> Glad to hear you're doing so well out there in OK!
> 
> These 2-3 houses a week, are they new or repaint?
> 
> If resi repaint, I totally agree with you and Brian that 2 coats ought to do.


Thanks Scott,

I have a mixture of both but I do mostly repaints but always have at least 1 new const. going every week. 

New const. = 2 coats

Re-paint = 1-2 coats depending on color and applicator


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

alanbarrington said:


> Said before and I will say it again that **** ain't worth the can its put in. That floor that I tried that one part epoxy on failed ,so now i had to strip it prime .and guess what i went to Ben Moore pick up porch and floor and put one fat coat "bada bing, "done see rest my case " junk"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


We are talking about Behr Ultra dude. Who the hell buys epoxy paint from Homedepot or Lowes?


----------



## vermontpainter

HeadHoncho said:


> Thanks Scott,
> 
> I have a mixture of both but I do mostly repaints but always have at least 1 new const. going every week.
> 
> New const. = 2 coats
> 
> Re-paint = 1-2 coats depending on color and applicator


Awesome, Troy! Glad to see things popping for you in year 5. I remember like 3 years ago when you were just getting your legs under you. Sounds like a combo of good experience and good timing in getting the inside scoop on Brian's systems has you on a fast track. Figured you were probably busy slamming out houses, as I haven't seen any sm postings from in months. Glad to hear your doing well.


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> Awesome, Troy! Glad to see things popping for you in year 5. I remember like 3 years ago when you were just getting your legs under you. Sounds like a combo of good experience and good timing in getting the inside scoop on Brian's systems has you on a fast track. Figured you were probably busy slamming out houses, as I haven't seen any sm postings from in months. Glad to hear your doing well.


Its weird how it takes about that long to get noticed in a big city being proactive. I'm young and have positioned my self well in such a short time. God is good! 

I really don't use JP systems because we mostly do stain wood, textured walls, and distress/glaze finishes. I use different systems here but Behr is defiantly on the product list for walls. 

Yeah no time to post, I need to hire/get someone to post for me like you do.


----------



## DeanV

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> big difference Dean. This is Behr Ultra flat enamel. Matte ultra is their ceiling paint and its available on whites and pastel only.


Wow. That flat enamel looks like a high eggshell sheen from the picture.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

DeanV said:


> Wow. That flat enamel looks like a high eggshell sheen from the picture.


It goes down a little. Here is a pic with the first coat and the other one after the second coat. You would never get a good coverage from a product from SW or any other for the same price range.


----------



## straight_lines

DeanV said:


> Wow. That flat enamel looks like a high eggshell sheen from the picture.


The finish is plastic looking imo, its why I don't like using it for something that isn't blow and go. It does cover really well, but no one is going to tell me a three coat system will not look, and feel better.


----------



## GreenGuy

Wait, I'm confused. Is Jack Pauhl for or against the Behr product? Also, I've always heard Behr doesn't have good coverage and is crappy paint. Is this true?


----------



## DeanV

The single coat looks closer to a matte. Once the mud is sealed then a shiny egg. More like SW mattes than BM.


----------



## Rbriggs82

GreenGuy said:


> Wait, I'm confused. Is Jack Pauhl for or against the Behr product? Also, I've always heard Behr doesn't have good coverage and is crappy paint. Is this true?


He's the Behr poster child :yes: it does cover well but will burnish like a mofo in deeper colors.


----------



## Jmayspaint

straight_lines said:


> The finish is plastic looking .










There is definitely something different about it. 
I still haven't used it myself, but I did an exterior where the builders crew painted the inside with the flat enamel. I grabbed an empty can to use and noticed the dried paint film peeled out of the can and held together like semi gloss of other brands. It was even flexible.
First time I've seen matte paint (even other flat enamels) with such characteristics. 
I wonder if its this is why it does look and feel so different. 
Wasn't it Bher that did that thing where they painted balloons, then popped them to show how well the film held together...?...


----------



## MikeCalifornia

straight_lines said:


> The finish is plastic looking imo,


Paint is plastic?


----------



## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> ...no one is going to tell me a three coat system will not look, and feel better.


Wanna bet?


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

Behr Ultra is not magic paint. Use a couple gallons to paint a room, if you don't like it move on a try another product that fits your need best. 

I personally use the eggshell, customers love it and are happy with the final product. Some of them have colors from Behr before I meet with them so I don't mind using it, of course it has to be Ultra and some other depending on their budget and color is the right product. 

I will be happy if I could use BM Aura all of the time but unfortunately it's not possible.


----------



## GreenGuy

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Behr Ultra is not magic paint. Use a couple gallons to paint a room, if you don't like it move on a try another product that fits your need best.
> 
> I personally use the eggshell, customers love it and are happy with the final product. Some of them have colors from Behr before I meet with them so I don't mind using it, of course it has to be Ultra and some other depending on their budget and color is the right product.
> 
> I will be happy if I could use BM Aura all of the time but unfortunately it's not possible.


Where can you buy Magic Paint? Is it Ben Moore or SW?


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

GreenGuy said:


> Where can you buy Magic Paint? Is it Ben Moore or SW?


Painters expect wonders from a gallon of Behr that is $ 26ish. I don't think you can understand me right now, you are still too GREEN.


----------



## straight_lines

MikeCalifornia said:


> Paint is plastic?


Yes, but the real trick is it not have it look that way when dry. 

Cashmere flat enamel. 




I get the argument for behr, it looks good enough for a lot of the general public. 

Until they visit a friends house that contracted JHC. :jester:


----------



## vermontpainter

Ok, Tommy, so how did you go about getting this result? How many coats? Primer, no primer? Tinted Primer? Multiple coats of primer? Is it really that hard to do with a mid line SW product like Cashmere?


----------



## straight_lines

It was one coat of wall and wood and two top coats on all GWB. The designer pushed for duration but I made the case for cashmere instead because of the lower sheen. 

We even sanded in between coats and all. :icon_smile:


----------



## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> It was one coat of wall and wood and two top coats on all GWB. The designer pushed for duration but I made the case for cashmere instead because of the lower sheen.
> 
> We even sanded in between coats and all. :icon_smile:


No kidding, 3 coat system. I guess that is becoming a luxury item these days. 

Looks pretty good to me. What is your price per gal on Cashmere Flat? I was in Depot the other day and saw Behr for $33. I had a $50 gift card even.


----------



## straight_lines

I want to say upper 30s off the top of my head. I also remembered that we primed that one with 253, not SWP WaW. 

I don't understand the logic to be honest. So many contractors are caught up in that race to the bottom. You are simply cutting corners.. Does it look ok? For the most part yes, the average homeowner won't really know the difference. Being cheaper and faster is always a plus for most builders. 

I don't even think applying only two coats of behr is to their spec is it? Jussayin..


----------



## ewingpainting.net

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> It goes down a little. Here is a pic with the first coat and the other one after the second coat. You would never get a good coverage from a product from SW or any other for the same price range.


Why they call it flat?

....


----------



## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> I want to say upper 30s off the top of my head. I also remembered that we primed that one with 253, not SWP WaW.
> 
> I don't understand the logic to be honest. So many contractors are caught up in that race to the bottom. You are simply cutting corners.. Does it look ok? For the most part yes, the average homeowner won't really know the difference. Being cheaper and faster is always a plus for most builders.
> 
> I don't even think applying only two coats of behr is to their spec is it? Jussayin..


Slippery slope indeed. Sometimes I think it is a symptom of contractors who can't sell at a high price for a proper job. 

They don't want to become total blow and go hacks, so they just kind of do marginal work with cheap product. 

In that deal, the only way to make more money is to go faster and use cheaper product. They feel good, though, because they are still the high price once in a while, and anyone who is higher is just slow, expensive, and screwing people. 

I am sure that guys can probably make good money specializing in mediocrity. Its a large market. There are lots of people who want marginal work, and value that. Probably the majority of people who hire painters want marginal work. Its no different than anything else. 

If guys are willing to plateau at that level, I don't have a problem with that. Every market is chucker butt full of contractors like that. 

As someone pointed out earlier, it just makes it easier to differentiate. 

Have 3 coat systems really reached luxury item status? :jester:


----------



## DeanV

I am going to start offering 2+2 systems. Wait, new wood trim already is a 2+2.

Maybe a 2+3.


----------



## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I am going to start offering 2+2 systems. Wait, new wood trim already is a 2+2.
> 
> Maybe a 2+3.


Back in '08 we did a 4 coat system with a split coat after primer. It was one of the most killer systems we ever did. All oil. All brushed.


----------



## straight_lines

straight_lines said:


> I don't even think applying only two coats of behr is to their spec is it? Jussayin..


So this got me curious so I went to the tds. 

For behr premium plus. 


Code:


PREVIOUSLY PAINTED SURFACES:
• Although BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Zero VOC**Paint is
Self-Priming over most properly prepared surfaces,
it is recommended for optimum performance to
follow the primer recommendations provided below.
PROPERLY PREPARED NEW SURFACES:
Gypsum Wallboard:
• Self Priming over new Wallboard
Plaster:
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Stain-Blocking
Primer & Sealer No. 75
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior
Drywall Primer & Sealer No. 73
Wood:
• Self Priming over bare Wood
Tannin/Stainblocking:
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Stain-Blocking
Primer & Sealer No. 75
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior/Exterior

Ultra seems to be an approved two coat system over bare drywall. 


Code:


PROPERLY PREPARED NEW SURFACES:
Gypsum Wallboard/Drywall, Plaster, Masonry,
Galvanized Metal, Metal & Aluminum and Wood.
(2 coats minimum required for new or uncoated surfaces.)
*For Severe Tannin/Stain-blocking:
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior/Exterior
Oil‑Based Primer & Sealer No. 434
• BEHR PREMIUM PLUS Interior
Stain‑Blocking Primer & Sealer No. 75
PREVIOUSLY PAINTED SURFACES:
• Use a full coat, or spot prime repaired, or uncoated
surfaces such as woods with heavy tannins (Redwood
and Cedar) with BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA®.

It does say minimum.. I don't want to be Minimum Painting. :whistling2:

Edit wanted to add this was for eggshell, spent enough time on it already not going back to check the other sheens.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

straight_lines said:


> I want to say upper 30s off the top of my head. I also remembered that we primed that one with 253, not SWP WaW.
> 
> I don't understand the logic to be honest. So many contractors are caught up in that race to the bottom. You are simply cutting corners.. Does it look ok? For the most part yes, the average homeowner won't really know the difference. Being cheaper and faster is always a plus for most builders.
> 
> I don't even think applying only two coats of behr is to their spec is it? Jussayin..


I'd hate to see that Behr product in a 3 coat system, could you imagine the primer sheen? It would move it right to semi. 

I'm a 3 coater too, 2 on repaints

....


----------



## ewingpainting.net

DeanV said:


> I am going to start offering 2+2 systems. Wait, new wood trim already is a 2+2.
> 
> Maybe a 2+3.


Moderator Dean you are on a roll. lol

....


----------



## mudbone

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> But it's hard to believe that a $ 26ish product from Homedepot performs way better than any product from SW including Emerald. not all my customers can afford BM Aura and every single time someone wants a deep red, bright yellow my first tought is Behr Ultra. I have used plenty of it.
> 
> Thanks to Jack I decided to give a try and I was very impressed. how can Homedepot have this great wall paint and Sherwin Williams can't come out with a product closer to Ultra after all of these years.
> Emerald is nothing close and is almost 3 times the cost of Behr Ultra.


 Agree 100%:yes:


----------



## ewingpainting.net

straight_lines said:


> So this got me curious so I went to the tds.
> 
> For behr premium plus.
> PREVIOUSLY PAINTED SURFACES:
>  Although BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Zero VOC**Paint is
> Self-Priming over most properly prepared surfaces,
> it is recommended for optimum performance to
> follow the primer recommendations provided below.
> PROPERLY PREPARED NEW SURFACES:
> Gypsum Wallboard:
>  Self Priming over new Wallboard
> Plaster:
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Stain-Blocking
> Primer & Sealer No. 75
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior
> Drywall Primer & Sealer No. 73
> Wood:
>  Self Priming over bare Wood
> Tannin/Stainblocking:
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Stain-Blocking
> Primer & Sealer No. 75
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior/Exterior
> 
> Ultra seems to be an approved two coat system over bare drywall.
> PROPERLY PREPARED NEW SURFACES:
> Gypsum Wallboard/Drywall, Plaster, Masonry,
> Galvanized Metal, Metal & Aluminum and Wood.
> (2 coats minimum required for new or uncoated surfaces.)
> *For Severe Tannin/Stain-blocking:
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS® Interior/Exterior
> Oil‑Based Primer & Sealer No. 434
>  BEHR PREMIUM PLUS Interior
> Stain‑Blocking Primer & Sealer No. 75
> PREVIOUSLY PAINTED SURFACES:
>  Use a full coat, or spot prime repaired, or uncoated
> surfaces such as woods with heavy tannins (Redwood
> and Cedar) with BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA®.


Pfft, who reads paint specs, those manufacturers don't have a clue what they're talking about..

....


----------



## mudbone

GreenGuy said:


> Where can you buy Magic Paint? Is it Ben Moore or SW?


 You can buy magic paint at SW. Purchase it and watch your dollars disappear!


----------



## GreenGuy

mudbone said:


> You can buy magic paint at SW. Purchase it and watch your dollars disappear!


They're never MY dollars disappearing.


----------



## Jmayspaint

vermontpainter said:


> Slippery slope indeed. Sometimes I think it is a symptom of contractors who can't sell at a high price for a proper job.
> 
> They don't want to become total blow and go hacks, so they just kind of do marginal work with cheap product.
> 
> In that deal, the only way to make more money is to go faster and use cheaper product. They feel good, though, because they are still the high price once in a while, and anyone who is higher is just slow, expensive, and screwing people.
> 
> I am sure that guys can probably make good money specializing in mediocrity. Its a large market. There are lots of people who want marginal work, and value that. Probably the majority of people who hire painters want marginal work. Its no different than anything else.
> 
> If guys are willing to plateau at that level, I don't have a problem with that. Every market is chucker butt full of contractors like that.
> 
> As someone pointed out earlier, it just makes it easier to differentiate.
> 
> Have 3 coat systems really reached luxury item status? :jester:


 Aren't coating systems changing though? 
Lets take Bher out of the equation. Don't the top lines of BM and SW both claim to be two coat systems. Do we just not believe them? Are they full of marketing bull like lowes and HD? ..ret..

I think what constitutes a "coat" needs to be specifically defined, (and it is of course) to determine the validity of two coat systems. 

I understand if the argument is, ' well specific coating thickness can't be archived consistently, so three coat systems must be used to achieve the proper mills for the coating to perform'.  (Besides, why bother to check anyway...it's just residential.. ) 
But I disagree that its not reasonable to expect to put a full coat of paint on. And that it is somehow of lower quality to take full advantage of modern two coat systems. 
Aura paint claims, 'never more than two coats'. 
I have found this to be true if the 'coat' is as defined in the specs.
I don't mean to be antagonistic, or imply 3 coat systems are unnecessary, or that everyone should do 2 coats. 
Judgments on what a 'coat' of any certain paint will do can be made in two ways. What will it do if I just put it on like I put paint on (or the guys put it on). Or what will it do if applied to the specific thickness recommended.


Or thicker, as JP has eluded to.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo

Behr is only sold at Home Depot. That's enough to count me out.


----------



## alanbarrington

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> We are talking about Behr Ultra dude. Who the hell buys epoxy paint from Homedepot or Lowes?


Yeah your right bro , what was I thinking if they can't make paint work what makes them think they could make epoxy work either , so yeah what was I thinking. JUNK and I am back quite . So go with your BERH..... instincts

Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


----------



## Seattlepainting

I have never executed an entire house with Behr; but I have a wall painted split Behr Ultra and BM regal colored in Cloud White. This has been on for 14 months in our finish room. After 6 months of use... Leaning doors ladders etc the BU held up equally as well but color shifted and sheen dulled.

Jack P, does hit it bullseye when it comes to testing. If you sell paint you publish results that put your product in the best light. Many of these tests are relevant like scrub cycling and uv cooking; but the coverage tests are an above average test: when was the last time you were hired to paint Walls of black and white card stock?


----------



## Seattlepainting

Above average guess


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

Seattlepainting said:


> I have never executed an entire house with Behr; but I have a wall painted split Behr Ultra and BM regal colored in Cloud White. This has been on for 14 months in our finish room. After 6 months of use... Leaning doors ladders etc the BU held up equally as well but color shifted and sheen dulled.


You know what, I completely agree with you. That's is one of the reasons when I sell the product I explain those differences. If they agree that's fine with me, I just want to make sure the customer and I have an understanding that he will get the proper film thickness and overall a solid color.

I try to sell BM Aura for color lock technology. but I also understand customers wanting to go with something else. I mean here in SA the price for BM Aura is $69.95 compare to other places where you guys could get it for $40 ish.

If I could get BM Aura for $40 ish I would not offer or paint with anything else. but unfortunately I need to adapt a little to my market.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

alanbarrington said:


> Yeah your right bro , what was I thinking if they can't make paint work what makes them think they could make epoxy work either , so yeah what was I thinking. JUNK and I am back quite . So go with your BERH..... instincts
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk


Call me insane, but as a professional painter I can make any product look good. I once painted a room with a very dark burgundy color and paint from Walmart. 
It took about 4 coats to get the proper surface coverage but at the end you couldn't tell it was a cheap paint. 

Customer was very happy. I would not spec that paint on my jobs but I would use it again, I would just had to charge accordingly.


----------



## Paintdian

Hey guys. I am a lurker on the forum and I particularly keep my eyes on posts made by JP. Reading his content has inspired making good money. I work for a painting contractor full time and we do three coats on new construction with no if's and's or butt's. How ever I get requested from time and time again for private side work, more specifically new basement developments. I take on the work solo and stand by BEHR Ultra. Two coats over bare drywall. Any color, any time, any place. They love the final executions. The developer thinks highly of my work in addition to the quick turn arounds. There has never been any questions aimed at me regarding primer. BEHR Ultra has its time and place for the win for sure.


----------



## Oden

So sincere.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR

Although when painting bare drywall or recently textured walls I use a primer like Zinsser Primecoat 2. When painting walls after someone just buys a home painted with just builders flat. 2 coats of Ultra or Aura are enough.


----------



## vermontpainter

Or Natura, or Cashmere, or Duration, or Regal Select, or Manor Hall, or Ben, or Mythic...


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> Or Natura, or Cashmere, or Duration, or Regal Select, or Manor Hall, or Ben, or Mythic...


Do you have smooth or textured walls up there?


----------



## jack pauhl

Here is Scotts method that he stands behind. Now Scott, if I had taken your advice on primer and paint, I would be calling you on why it didn't work. Like I did last week but you never answer my calls or return them.

Scott you should explain to the readers why your method didn't work. I would like to know myself.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Here is Scotts method that he stands behind. Now Scott, if I had taken your advice on primer and paint, I would be calling you on why it didn't work. Like I did last week but you never answer my calls or return them.
> 
> Scott you should explain to the readers why your method didn't work. I would like to know myself.


Huh? Not sure where your coming from here, Brian.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Huh? Not sure where your coming from here, Brian.


Sure you do Scott.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Sure you do Scott.


I guess I'm not getting the context that your jumping in at...I don't know what method I shared that you are critiquing here. Sorry I didn't return your call last week. I do enjoy chatting with you.


----------



## Steve Richards

I wish I'd known before I joined here, there was a site called "painthacker".

Thanks JP


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> I guess I'm not getting the context that your jumping in at...I don't know what method I shared that you are critiquing here. Sorry I didn't return your call last week. I do enjoy chatting with you.


I posted a photo doing exactly what the paint can says and what the architect specified and that system failed to seal the porosity between drywall mud and board which is clearly noticeable after applying an additional 3rd top coat. This is a top of the line paint product. It is also the "exact" same results we've seen testing 24 drywall primer/sealers. Only one, the 24th primer, last month sealed and equalized porosity with good adhesion. 

I have additional photos of my previous post where a simple tape test pulled all of that paint and primer back off to bare drywall. I would call that a failure on every level and I certainly would never recommend that system to anyone.

I explained earlier that primers/sealers are not tested to equalize porosity between mud and board and this is why all 23 of those primers perform the same. This issue is 35 years old that I know of. It existed when I first started painting and it is no different today.


----------



## jack pauhl

If a top of the line paint "system" performs so poorly then what is the point in paying extra money for what a $14 paint applied in 2 coats will do. It will produce the same results as 1 primer and 3 finish. 

The solution is to find a paint and primer in one product that outperforms the 1+3 system used in the photo and that 2 coat system does exist although just as rare as stumbling upon our 24th primer which actually produced exceptional results with 1 primer and 1 top coat far superior on every level than the awful 4 coat system failure.

It really pays in production and profitability to thoroughly test paints and primers.


----------



## vermontpainter

Sounds like a bad product combo. Sometimes we even have to check with the tapers to see what they used before priming.

I'd suggest you do what we did and make it a condition of your contract that you reserve the right to override architect specs.

We do that when they spec aura or other wonder paints to do things they are not meant to do on large sf scales and with architectural f to c windows that amplify angular sheen.

You are definitely better off doing your own specs.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Sounds like a bad product combo. Sometimes we even have to check with the tapers to see what they used before priming.
> 
> I'd suggest you do what we did and make it a condition of your contract that you reserve the right to override architect specs.
> 
> We do that when they spec aura or other wonder paints to do things they are not meant to do on large sf scales and with architectural f to c windows that amplify angular sheen.
> 
> You are definitely better off doing your own specs.


A bad product combo? Are you kidding me? Name one system with a primer and finish that works. I'll try it and post my results. You seem certain this might be isolated. I know its not. It is the industry norm. If equalizing porosity was a factor in making products this issue wouldn't be on every single primer plus finish job I've seen, including yours, I am certain. 

If you think there is a solution then what it is and how is it better then 2 straight coats? You do use Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams right? So what system do they have that works over bare drywall?


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> A bad product combo? Are you kidding me? Name one system with a primer and finish that works. I'll try it and post my results. You seem certain this might be isolated. I know its not. It is the industry norm. If equalizing porosity was a factor in making products this issue wouldn't be on every single primer plus finish job I've seen, including yours, I am certain.
> 
> If you think there is a solution then what it is and how is it better then 2 straight coats? You do use Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams right? So what system do they have that works over bare drywall?


I'm not saying its isolated. I am sure many people have struggles like you do with getting primers to work. 

On the flip side, Tommy Johnson, Paul Schmidt, Dean Veltman and many others here (I believe) don't struggle with them so much. I have used several different primer and paint product combos on new drywall that work just fine. Its not that big of a deal. 

I do think it sucks that people struggle with it though. Take your case for instance, working off obviously bad architect specs, and having to plink around with 24 primers before coming to a conclusion. Who's dime is that happening on? It is no wonder you have to paint so damn fast once you do settle on something! 

:jester:


----------



## Xmark

Since this is a Behr thread I thought I might add my experience with the product the last year. Both times I used their top of the line,Behr Premium Plus Ultra.(it's pricey with no contractor discount)

The first time I used it was to paint a few window frames and it came out like glass. I used a semi-gloss white.

The second time my experience was horrible

I had a bunch of railing caps and those cut out hallway and stairwell shelves,(whatever they are called). I was using an off-white semi-gloss,the same colour. It was just to clean up the tops that were scratched and marked.

All I had to do was the top of the caps and shelves so it was supposed to be a simple cut and roll with a 5 mm 5" roller. The finished product looked terrible because it set up extremely fast. I sanded it and next tried to lay it down by brushing alone (with Floetrol added) to give some more open time. Again same result,the finish was terrible. It just wouldn't lay down properly. It was supposed to be a simple 1 hr time frame to complete the 6-7 tops.

I ended up removing all the Behr and using another product which I had zero problems with.

I'll never use Behr on trim again because of that one bad experience. That said I've never had a problem with their wall paint.

BTW Home Depot did refund my money so it wasn't a total loss.


----------



## rjensen ptg

jack pauhl said:


> I posted a photo doing exactly what the paint can says and what the architect specified and that system failed to seal the porosity between drywall mud and board which is clearly noticeable after applying an additional 3rd top coat. This is a top of the line paint product. It is also the "exact" same results we've seen testing 24 drywall primer/sealers. Only one, the 24th primer, last month sealed and equalized porosity with good adhesion.


so what was that 24th primer?


----------



## Xmark

The posts about the wall primer is strange. I've never had a problem with ANY primer/sealer over new drywall. One prime and two finish works 99% of the time unless it is a red or an orange or some other difficult colour.

When I have difficult covering colours I usually go with Aura.


----------



## vermontpainter

Xmark said:


> The posts about the wall primer is strange. I've never had a problem with ANY primer/sealer over new drywall. One prime and two finish works 99% of the time unless it is a red or an orange or some other difficult colour.


In the photo Jack posted, it appears that the wall paint is wet, and there is obviously a set of french doors or double hungs just to the left washing it in natural light. Things do look a little funky when drying (the paper and mud dry at different rates, obviously). If it is still a problem when dry, it is an angular sheen issue...an issue in the quality of the sheen in the base of paint being used. We have seen that. 

But I tend to agree with you. We have been doing new construction/new drywall for about 25 years, and it is just about a non issue. 

I wonder in cases where primers and paints don't work together, if it could be an issue in the spraying and backrolling during application. I can think of many ways that application issues could result in dry film problems.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> I'm not saying its isolated. I am sure many people have struggles like you do with getting primers to work.
> 
> On the flip side, Tommy Johnson, Paul Schmidt, Dean Veltman and many others here (I believe) don't struggle with them so much. I have used several different primer and paint product combos on new drywall that work just fine. Its not that big of a deal.
> 
> I do think it sucks that people struggle with it though. Take your case for instance, working off obviously bad architect specs, and having to plink around with 24 primers before coming to a conclusion. Who's dime is that happening on? It is no wonder you have to paint so damn fast once you do settle on something!
> 
> :jester:


I see you avoid answering my questions as usual. Why don't you list out what you Tommy, Paul, Dean and many others are using so I can specifically show you the difference. It sounds like the results in the photo I posted is okay for you. 

I am asking you to tell me specifically what primer and finish works over smooth bare drywall. I'm pretty sure the fine folks here on PT, Tommy, Paul, Dean etc know that 1+2=3 and that Scott is longer and more expensive than 1+1. Get my drift? Who's producing a solid finish faster? Are you going to try telling me its the 3 coat system? Its no wonder why I'm so "damn fast." :thumbsup:


----------



## doctors11




----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> I see you avoid answering my questions as usual. Why don't you list out what you Tommy, Paul, Dean and many others are using so I can specifically show you the difference. It sounds like the results in the photo I posted is okay for you.
> 
> I am asking you to tell me specifically what primer and finish works over smooth bare drywall. I'm pretty sure the fine folks here on PT, Tommy, Paul, Dean etc know that 1+2=3 and that Scott is longer and more expensive than 1+1. Get my drift? Who's producing a solid finish faster? Are you going to try telling me its the 3 coat system? Its no wonder why I'm so "damn fast." :thumbsup:


Lets back up a step. When primers and paints fail for you...how do you spray? Do you backroll? Do you try to spray and backroll yourself? Does John backroll for you? Does John know how to backroll? Can John even keep up with you? Do you backroll with a stock 18" or one of those hand mod-ed double back beveled custom 14ers? You are quick to blame the product, and I know you don't ever doubt the system, but maybe there is a flaw in the system.

To your question, Tommy just posted a thread the other day...I believe his wall paint was Cashmere, but I dont recall what he said he used for primer. He took dry photos of his walls (a medium blue) and sprayed trim (an old school oil primer and oil enamel combo) that looked really good. Perhaps he will pop in and share what he found that worked. 

You must have used primer and paint combos in the decades before Behr launched the paint and primer in 1? What worked for you then?

And, feel free to answer some of the other guys' questions in this thread. don't want to take all of your attention on this topic.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> In the photo Jack posted, it appears that the wall paint is wet, and there is obviously a set of french doors or double hungs just to the left washing it in natural light. Things do look a little funky when drying (the paper and mud dry at different rates, obviously). If it is still a problem when dry, it is an angular sheen issue...an issue in the quality of the sheen in the base of paint being used. We have seen that.
> 
> But I tend to agree with you. We have been doing new construction/new drywall for about 25 years, and it is just about a non issue.
> 
> I wonder in cases where primers and paints don't work together, if it could be an issue in the spraying and backrolling during application. I can think of many ways that application issues could result in dry film problems.


Haha. Let me spell it out. That job does have a window but it looked fine when the 1st coat was dry over the primer coat. The job gets 1 primer + 2 finish. There is no way the touch-ups going over 1 primer plus 1 finish would ever fly. The 2nd coat also looked fine after it dried. What about those touch-ups and adhesion? That wall after 1 primer and 2 finish is obviously not at full sheen yet. I suppose you would just disregard that? Now applying a 3rd coat which is wet in the photo shows the mud joints everywhere. So did the previous 1 primer and 2 finish do anything more than a $14 paint would do in 2 coats? Of course not.

If adhesion, touchups, flashing and solid sheen are not important to you then I would just go straight 2 coats of a cheap $14 paint. That'll get you the same results faster and cheaper.


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> I see you avoid answering my questions as usual. Why don't you list out what you Tommy, Paul, Dean and many others are using so I can specifically show you the difference. It sounds like the results in the photo I posted is okay for you.
> 
> I am asking you to tell me specifically what primer and finish works over smooth bare drywall. I'm pretty sure the fine folks here on PT, Tommy, Paul, Dean etc know that 1+2=3 and that Scott is longer and more expensive than 1+1. Get my drift? Who's producing a solid finish faster? Are you going to try telling me its the 3 coat system? Its no wonder why I'm so "damn fast." :thumbsup:


You are using only 2 coats of Behr Premium Plus eggshell over un-primed drywall?

Are these high end houses? That sounds too good to be true.


----------



## HeadHoncho

Xmark said:


> The posts about the wall primer is strange. I've never had a problem with ANY primer/sealer over new drywall. One prime and two finish works 99% of the time unless it is a red or an orange or some other difficult colour.
> 
> When I have difficult covering colours I usually go with Aura.


What level finish of mud is on the new drywall in your area?


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Lets back up a step. When primers and paints fail for you...how do you spray? Do you backroll? Do you try to spray and backroll yourself? Does John backroll for you? Does John know how to backroll? Can John even keep up with you? Do you backroll with a stock 18" or one of those hand mod-ed double back beveled custom 14ers? You are quick to blame the product, and I know you don't ever doubt the system, but maybe there is a flaw in the system.
> 
> To your question, Tommy just posted a thread the other day...I believe his wall paint was Cashmere, but I dont recall what he said he used for primer. He took dry photos of his walls (a medium blue) and sprayed trim (an old school oil primer and oil enamel combo) that looked really good. Perhaps he will pop in and share what he found that worked.
> 
> You must have used primer and paint combos in the decades before Behr launched the paint and primer in 1? What worked for you then?
> 
> And, feel free to answer some of the other guys' questions in this thread. don't want to take all of your attention on this topic.


You can never argue an applied 14 mil wet film over each of a 4 coat system rolled straight. That is above manufactures spec. By far. We're not even talking about one of my jobs Scott. All this stuff I post is what other paint contractors are going through. Not sure why you don't seem to get that. I confirm their findings by trying or going through what I did in the past.

Why wont you back up what you preach Scott? You know, you never do. There is no credibility in that whatsoever.


----------



## Xmark

HeadHoncho said:


> What level finish of mud is on the new drywall in your area?


standard.

We never see level 5 finishes, but I don't do new construction at a full time scale. When I see new drywall it is for a Basement Reno or the odd room here or there.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> You can never argue an applied 14 mil wet film over each of a 4 coat system rolled straight. That is above manufactures spec. By far. We're not even talking about one of my jobs Scott. All this stuff I post is what other paint contractors are going through. Not sure why you don't seem to get that. I confirm their findings by trying or going through what I did in the past.
> 
> Why wont you back up what you preach Scott? You know, you never do. There is no credibility in that whatsoever.


I'm not sure why you are so frustrated with me, Brian. I sympathize with your primer challenges, I guess I feel fortunate (for whatever reason) not to have that particular problem. 

I enjoy reading what you share about your adventures in consulting other contractors who are having problems, and I don't doubt that you are able to solve them. 

I could sit here all afternoon and list out primer and paint combinations that have worked for me over the past 25 years but I don't think that is going to do either of us (or anyone, really) much good. 

Lets move forward as gentlemen and colleagues.


----------



## jack pauhl

Xmark said:


> You are using only 2 coats of Behr Premium Plus eggshell over un-primed drywall?
> 
> Are these high end houses? That sounds too good to be true.


It is too good to be true. I treat the lowest paying jobs no different than the highest paying. The jobs gets done right regardless. Cheap products, as well as some top of the line expensive products are not always the best solution and if not careful will land you doing a 4 coat system that ultimately fails. 

Check out Painthacker on Google +, there are many very clear photos of the testing process and the results between paints applied straight to smooth bare drywall vs. paints applied over primer vs. paints applied over clear sealers. It really cant be disputed. I'm not sure why people try especially when they aren't willing to back up what they preach. If anyone had a solid system to share, they would feel confident it doing so so others can benefit. 

I dont come of PT and run my mouth with a bunch of nonsense information that I cant back up. I post solid clear results for anyone to follow and try on their own and I spell it how how the test was performed. It is very unfortunate people promote lousy systems that are known to fail. Those systems end up costing paint contractors a lot of money.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> I'm not sure why you are so frustrated with me, Brian. I sympathize with your primer challenges, I guess I feel fortunate (for whatever reason) not to have that particular problem.
> 
> I enjoy reading what you share about your adventures in consulting other contractors who are having problems, and I don't doubt that you are able to solve them.
> 
> I could sit here all afternoon and list out primer and paint combinations that have worked for me over the past 25 years but I don't think that is going to do either of us (or anyone, really) much good.
> 
> Lets move forward as gentlemen and colleagues.


I knew you wouldn't tell me what primer and paint works. Must not feel too confident. You shouldn't put stuff out there you cant back up.


----------



## vermontpainter

We are actually spraying drywall on monday in a 4k sf home, all new drywall, level 4. We will be using primer. If enough people are interested in the topic, I would be glad to take some pictures and shoot some video. We will be running a bone stock 395 Ultra, 515 tip, and backrolling 18" with whatever naps we have kicking around in the bins in the shop, likely Woosters, I believe. I'd be willing to do a thread on that if it is really that compelling of a read.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> I knew you wouldn't tell me what primer and paint works. Must not feel too confident. You shouldn't put stuff out there you cant back up.


I can understand that you probably don't have the time or interest to read or watch what I am doing, but I have to say, I have not been accused of not backing it up before! I will take that into careful consideration.


----------



## Jmayspaint

jack pauhl said:


> You can never argue an applied 14 mil wet film over each of a 4 coat system rolled straight. That is above manufactures spec. .










Its difficult to understand what comparison you are making. Several of your posts make reference to extremely thick application. Are you comparing two coats of Bher at 14 mil wet applied by you,to 4 coats (1prime 3top) of another brand applied by someone else at unknown (presumably 12-16mil wet) thickness? 

Some elaboration on your application thickness measurements and how they pertain to your testing would be nice. If not here, maybe a reference to one of your books? 

It seems like you are saying modern self priming latexes can give better more consistent results than traditional prime/paint systems. 
Obviously Bher is not unique in its claim to be self priming on drywall.


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> It is too good to be true. I treat the lowest paying jobs no different than the highest paying. The jobs gets done right regardless. Cheap products, as well as some top of the line expensive products are not always the best solution and if not careful will land you doing a 4 coat system that ultimately fails.
> 
> Check out Painthacker on Google +, there are many very clear photos of the testing process and the results between paints applied straight to smooth bare drywall vs. paints applied over primer vs. paints applied over clear sealers. It really cant be disputed. I'm not sure why people try especially when they aren't willing to back up what they preach. If anyone had a solid system to share, they would feel confident it doing so so others can benefit.
> 
> I dont come of PT and run my mouth with a bunch of nonsense information that I cant back up. I post solid clear results for anyone to follow and try on their own and I spell it how how the test was performed. It is very unfortunate people promote lousy systems that are known to fail. Those systems end up costing paint contractors a lot of money.


So you do only 2 coats (of Behr premium plus ultra) and no primer over bare drywall?


----------



## Xmark

Also,Ive never had a problem with adhesion. Never had a call back in over 20 years for drywall adhesion problems. So you go back to a house after it cures,30 days later and do adhesion tests?

I'll bet that nobody at Paint Talk has experienced adhesion problems painting new drywall.

You seem to be fixated on this for some reason. (no offense)


----------



## ewingpainting.net




----------



## vermontpainter

ewingpainting.net said:


>


Give him some credit, he stayed with subliminal placement right up until post #288.


----------



## jack pauhl

XMark, This is probably the best representation as to how primers are failing to seal and equalize porosity between drywall mud and board.

Let me outline what you're looking at. This is a Level 4 finish with stripes of various drywall primers applied down the wall over bare drywall and mud areas except for one stripe has BEHR Premium Plus Flat Enamel over bare drywall (the wet one). The stripes are separated by equal spacing. Primer stripe, no primer, primer stripe, no primer etc. You can see the width of the stripe where the orange circle is. A bit wider than 9" wide stripes. 

The next day a coat of the flat enamel was applied to the entire wall with an 18" cover from left to right. It took no more than 2 minutes from start to finishing on the right. So within that short time all the primers absorbed the flat enamel except for the stripe with paint applied directly to the bare board, which remained wet a long time after it was rolled. 

The circle indicates the cross section between bare board and the horizontal mud joint and there is no flashing whatsoever. This tests shows how well the 1st coat of flat enamel sealed the mud and board in comparison to a total of 23 primers (not all applied to this wall.)

We did discover a white primer last month (primer #24) that produced better results than our previous best results using Gardz clear sealer over bare drywall. Actually quite a bit better results when used as a 1 primer and 1 finish scenario over bare smooth drywall.


----------



## Paradigmzz

Jack Havanas or Brian Pauhl,

You have always been flash. What exactly are you saying? If Behr is the end all ill get on board. Ill offer you last years offer. What's your consulting fee for a week? Ill fly you out and you can run a job for a week. 

I have a feeling your only here to plug your painthacker and that's cool. If you want to make time to make me a believer, let me know and we can set something up.do Your systems only aply to res paint grade cause we got booko stain grade nc and straight commercial nc about to roll.


----------



## jack pauhl

I should mention that our previous "best" results came from using Gardz sealer over bare drywall but now 2 coats of flat enamel directly applied over bare drywall produces better results. 

Also, 2 coats of flat enamel directly over bare drywall also produced better results vs. 1 coat of primer #24. 

So in summary. There is no "better" sealing solution known at this time than 2 coats of flat enamel over bare board which includes a total of 24 primer/sealers, 2 of which were clear sealers. That is the current "best" result scenario.

BEHR paints are formulated on the thin side like Advance and Sherwin Williams SuperPaint Satin so a microfiber cover is not recommended for application. Use a quality white woven cover such as a pro doo z or white dove for best results in a uniform finish.


----------



## Paradigmzz

jack pauhl said:


> XMark, This is probably the best representation as to how primers are failing to seal and equalize porosity between drywall mud and board.
> 
> Let me outline what you're looking at. This is a Level 4 finish with stripes of various drywall primers applied down the wall over bare drywall and mud areas except for one stripe has BEHR Premium Plus Flat Enamel over bare drywall (the wet one). The stripes are separated by equal spacing. Primer stripe, no primer, primer stripe, no primer etc. You can see the width of the stripe where the orange circle is. A bit wider than 9" wide stripes.
> 
> The next day a coat of the flat enamel was applied to the entire wall with an 18" cover from left to right. It took no more than 2 minutes from start to finishing on the right. So within that short time all the primers absorbed the flat enamel except for the stripe with paint applied directly to the bare board, which remained wet a long time after it was rolled.
> 
> The circle indicates the cross section between bare board and the horizontal mud joint and there is no flashing whatsoever. This tests shows how well the 1st coat of flat enamel sealed the mud and board in comparison to a total of 23 primers (not all applied to this wall.)
> 
> We did discover a white primer last month (primer #24) that produced better results than our previous best results using Gardz clear sealer over bare drywall. Actually quite a bit better results when used as a 1 primer and 1 finish scenario over bare smooth drywall.


What's primer 24?


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> XMark, This is probably the best representation as to how primers are failing to seal and equalize porosity between drywall mud and board.
> 
> Let me outline what you're looking at. This is a Level 4 finish with stripes of various drywall primers applied down the wall over bare drywall and mud areas except for one stripe has BEHR Premium Plus Flat Enamel over bare drywall (the wet one). The stripes are separated by equal spacing. Primer stripe, no primer, primer stripe, no primer etc. You can see the width of the stripe where the orange circle is. A bit wider than 9" wide stripes.
> 
> The next day a coat of the flat enamel was applied to the entire wall with an 18" cover from left to right. It took no more than 2 minutes from start to finishing on the right. So within that short time all the primers absorbed the flat enamel except for the stripe with paint applied directly to the bare board, which remained wet a long time after it was rolled.
> 
> The circle indicates the cross section between bare board and the horizontal mud joint and there is no flashing whatsoever. This tests shows how well the 1st coat of flat enamel sealed the mud and board in comparison to a total of 23 primers (not all applied to this wall.)
> 
> We did discover a white primer last month (primer #24) that produced better results than our previous best results using Gardz clear sealer over bare drywall. Actually quite a bit better results when used as a 1 primer and 1 finish scenario over bare smooth drywall.


That's all meaningless garbage. You are forgetting that acrylic paints take a good 30-45 days to fully cure and they do so at different rates.

The bottom line is how it looks and performs after it is cured. Most of the top end acrylic paints and primers do an excellent job on drywall and trim.

Who wants a flat finish for their walls? I've NEVER finished a wall with a flat finish. The closest thing to flat I've used is the Aura Bath and Spa which is Matte and that was for only one bathroom. I've also never painted an entire house with a matte.

Eggshell for walls is all we use.


----------



## jack pauhl

Paradigmzz said:


> Jack Havanas or Brian Pauhl,
> 
> You have always been flash. What exactly are you saying? If Behr is the end all ill get on board. Ill offer you last years offer. What's your consulting fee for a week? Ill fly you out and you can run a job for a week.
> 
> I have a feeling your only here to plug your painthacker and that's cool. If you want to make time to make me a believer, let me know and we can set something up.do Your systems only aply to res paint grade cause we got booko stain grade nc and straight commercial nc about to roll.


All I'm saying is primers/sealers are not tested to equalize porosity except for maybe primer #24 from the company who makes it but that company is known to make niche primers that simply work good. I was shocked by the results but I shouldn't have been based on my experience with their other products. Primer #24 is obviously completely different than the previous 23 primers.

This "best" stuff isn't for everybody. Many painters have no problem applying 1 of the 23 primers and slapping some finish over it and calling it done but there are some inherent problems using that method, costly ones both now and in the future and I get a sizable amount of work from previous work done on the same job so its important to set it off right in the beginning because that can save me labor later.

We're out of stain grade around here. I've only seen 3 stained houses in years! but prior to that we were doing nothing but stain grade. Had a nice 1 or 2 man system down for finishing oak and poplar although those products are no longer the same or even available today. 

No company too big or too small. Working right now outlining systems to save a paint contractor with 5-6 guys 250k. Cant change products on this one but I can change how they get applied and when. I noticed over the years simple changes are the ones that save painters the most. Its the areas we repeat on each job, every day.


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> We are actually spraying drywall on monday in a 4k sf home, all new drywall, level 4. We will be using primer. If enough people are interested in the topic, I would be glad to take some pictures and shoot some video. We will be running a bone stock 395 Ultra, 515 tip, and backrolling 18" with whatever naps we have kicking around in the bins in the shop, likely Woosters, I believe. I'd be willing to do a thread on that if it is really that compelling of a read.


It's a huge issue with painters but they are too afraid to post about it because they will get ridiculed by certain PT members, so yeah it would be a good read. Please include the exact products used because for some reason you dont want anyone to know, maybe your afraid to of being discredited or not confident enough, not sure... Remember having it look good is only 1 issue. Adhesion is huge for me! 

Current market drywall primers as first coat on bare drywall is the weakest link IMO. I see this first hand when doing decorative finishes over existing standard 3 coat finishes, delicate tape pulls paint off to drywall. Doesn't matter if its a new or old finish, spec house or 5 million dollar house. I'm in them all and see the failure. Especially touch up. Primers don't seal like they should and its a huge problem. 

No lets move to the current behr 2 coat only system on bare drywall (no primer coat). Sure go ahead and put a 3rd on if it makes you feel better. Tape doesn't pull paint off with this system after cure and it saves me money in all ways. Touch ups work every-time. This system is better for walls in every way and removes user error by a lot. I've converted several contractors and they will never go back to the 3 coat system. Funny thing is every contractor I've ever met has the same problems with the 3 coat system. Looks is just one part of the equation. 

So why waste time and money on the primer coat? Sure I used to do the same 3 coat system as you until I found a better solution. My 3 coat system looked great, but we have hand textured walls. It easy to make textured walls look good. 

JP pours his soul into helping others become better, and be more profitable in this economy. Why are you so stubborn with defending a 3 coat system that has severe problems that the majority of painters deal with. If its that good then tell us the exact products and steps you took to achieve the results you experience. Still doesn't get rid of the fact I can make more money with 2 coats and get the job done quicker. 

Lastly, try the behr 2 coat system on bare drywall...  don't knock until you try.


----------



## Xmark

primer #24 lol

Just admit that you are teasing the gullible into buying your membership or books to get the name of this mysterious primer.


----------



## Xmark

HeadHoncho said:


> It's a huge issue with painters but they are too afraid to post about it because they will get ridiculed by certain PT members, so yeah it would be a good read. Please include the exact products used because for some reason you dont want anyone to know, maybe your afraid to of being discredited or not confident enough, not sure... Remember having it look good is only 1 issue. Adhesion is huge for me!
> 
> Current market drywall primers as first coat on bare drywall is the weakest link IMO. I see this first hand when doing decorative finishes over existing standard 3 coat finishes, delicate tape pulls paint off to drywall. Doesn't matter if its a new or old finish, spec house or 5 million dollar house. I'm in them all and see the failure. Especially touch up. Primers don't seal like they should and its a huge problem.
> 
> No lets move to the current behr 2 coat only system on bare drywall (no primer coat). Sure go ahead and put a 3rd on if it makes you feel better. Tape doesn't pull paint off with this system after cure and it saves me money in all ways. Touch ups work every-time. This system is better for walls in every way and removes user error by a lot. I've converted several contractors and they will never go back to the 3 coat system. Funny thing is every contractor I've ever met has the same problems with the 3 coat system. Looks is just one part of the equation.
> 
> So why waste time and money on the primer coat? Sure I used to do the same 3 coat system as you until I found a better solution. My 3 coat system looked great, but we have hand textured walls. It easy to make textured walls look good.
> 
> JP pours his soul into helping others become better, and be more profitable in this economy. Why are you so stubborn with defending a 3 coat system that has severe problems that the majority of painters deal with. If its that good then tell us the exact products and steps you took to achieve the results you experience. Still doesn't get rid of the fact I can make more money with 2 coats and get the job done quicker.
> 
> Lastly, try the behr 2 coat system on bare drywall...  don't knock until you try.


"severe problems"

LOL


----------



## vermontpainter

Troy

I, like probably many here, went to the site and noticed that you are the Managing Editor, congrats! 

I respect your loyalty for sure. And no, I will not reveal primer 24! Jk

About 35 posts ago I could have started posting links and vids even showing myself teaching 17 year old kids how to spray and backroll latex primer, then cut and roll a solid coat over it with latex paint. 

I find Brian's stuff much more interesting, as it seems most here do.


----------



## jack pauhl

Xmark said:


> That's all meaningless garbage. You are forgetting that acrylic paints take a good 30-45 days to fully cure and they do so at different rates.
> 
> The bottom line is how it looks and performs after it is cured. Most of the top end acrylic paints and primers do an excellent job on drywall and trim.
> 
> Who wants a flat finish for their walls? I've NEVER finished a wall with a flat finish. The closest thing to flat I've used is the Aura Bath and Spa which is Matte and that was for only one bathroom. I've also never painted an entire house with a matte.
> 
> Eggshell for walls is all we use.


Thats backwards. You have to start with the first coat because that is the weakest link for all other coats. Eggshell is the same results if not a bit better. 

What do you mean by performing after? In order for paints to get the MPI approval by sheen they have to pass a certain number of scrub cycles and a few other tests. I believe it is 3,000 for eggshell so if BEHR Eggshell is on the list and so is other paint twice the price then at some point you would make the decision to pay more for passing the same test because what the stamp of approval does not tell you is how many more cycle beyond 3,000 the product achieved. For example any product with an MPI #52 Level 3 passed the same test. I never scrubbed any area 3,000 times nor would I ever do that. 

Here is straight eggshell


----------



## jack pauhl

Xmark said:


> primer #24 lol
> 
> Just admit that you are teasing the gullible into buying your membership or books to get the name of this mysterious primer.


I don't have any membership or books to sell.


----------



## Paradigmzz

jack pauhl said:


> I don't have any membership or books to sell.


Then what was the 24th primer you used?


----------



## Paradigmzz

For the record. I'm not antiBehr. I just hate hype without true substance.


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> I don't have any membership or books to sell.


You have a link to PAINTHACKER Magazine and I notice that Wooster is advertising on the front page. Is it free advertising?


----------



## Paradigmzz

Xmark said:


> You have a link to PAINTHACKER Magazine and I notice that Wooster is advertising on the front page. Is it free advertising?


How come I need a credit number to buy your pdf jack? It says suggested donation 7+ . I entered 0 and got shot down. Nothing in life is free. 

I'm calling bull****. Heres the reality. If you want to do what you do and make money at it... great. You have put the time and effort into it. I'm sure its classy and worth the read. Dont come knocking and say its to help the working man. Its straight capitalism. I'm for capitalism. Dont mask it as altruism.


----------



## Paradigmzz

jack pauhl said:


> I don't have any membership or books to sell.


Sorry this is what I meant to quote.


----------



## jack pauhl

Xmark said:


> You have a link to PAINTHACKER Magazine and I notice that Wooster is advertising on the front page. Is it free advertising?


Yes, and mag will be a freebie.


----------



## Paradigmzz

Sorry for hyping this up. I just wish this was straight forward without secondary agendas.


----------



## jack pauhl

Paradigmzz said:


> How come I need a credit number to buy your pdf jack? It says suggested donation 7+ . I entered 0 and got shot down. Nothing in life is free.
> 
> I'm calling bull****. Heres the reality. If you want to do what you do and make money at it... great. You have put the time and effort into it. I'm sure its classy and worth the read. Dont come knocking and say its to help the working man. Its straight capitalism. I'm for capitalism. Dont mask it as altruism.


ah... the guides. I'm not here selling the guides. Where did you get that impression? Never mentioned them. Isn't that kind of like saying I'm not here selling my painting services either? I paint houses just like you do. We both have painting services to offer right?


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> Yes, and mag will be a freebie.


You are saying that the magazine will generate ZERO revenue from advertising or any other sources?


----------



## HeadHoncho

Xmark said:


> You are saying that the magazine will generate ZERO revenue from advertising or any other sources?


Why hate on a guy trying to better himself and the paint industry? 

Terrible... what's your point?


----------



## jack pauhl

Xmark said:


> You are saying that the magazine will generate ZERO revenue from advertising or any other sources?


No that was not the question. I believe the policy is that people are not allowed to come on PT and sell things in their posts. That I do not do.


----------



## Xmark

HeadHoncho said:


> Why hate on a guy trying to better himself and the paint industry?
> 
> Terrible... what's your point?


Hate on the guy?

I don't hate him.


----------



## Xmark

jack pauhl said:


> No that was not the question. I believe the policy is that people are not allowed to come on PT and sell things in their posts. That I do not do.


Then why post links to your money making ventures?

Just call a spade a spade. You ARE trying to get the readers interested in your systems,products,magazines,web site.

The primer #24 was such a teaser Brian. I can't wait to sign up and find out what it is!!


----------



## HeadHoncho

Xmark said:


> Then why post links to your money making ventures?
> 
> Just call a spade a spade. You ARE trying to get the readers interested in your systems,products,magazines,web site.
> 
> The primer #24 was such a teaser Brian. I can't wait to sign up and find out what it is!!


Okay everyone on PT must remove signatures to money making ventures, starting today! Lol


----------



## NCPaint1

OK, maybe I'm lost.... Are there people having issues with primer adhering to bare drywall? I've never seen paint fall off of drywall. Plaster, yeah I've seen it peel, drywall never.


----------



## Xmark

HeadHoncho said:


> Okay everyone on PT must remove signatures to money making ventures, starting today! Lol



I never said that. Just don't pretend that posting in here isn't an opportunity to advertise your products...Jack Paul has always stuck to that story even though it is disingenuous.


----------



## cardwizzard

Xmark said:


> You have a link to PAINTHACKER Magazine and I notice that Wooster is advertising on the front page. Is it free advertising?


Interesting as Wooster flew jack to the uk last year for a seminar. Must be in bed with them also...


----------



## caulktheline

jack pauhl said:


> It is too good to be true.


No offense. All due respect. Don't want to scare anyone off. Just a direct quote.


----------



## MuraCoat

Xmark said:


> Then why post links to your money making ventures?
> 
> Just call a spade a spade. You ARE trying to get the readers interested in your systems,products,magazines,web site.
> 
> The primer #24 was such a teaser Brian. I can't wait to sign up and find out what it is!!


Please direct me to Jacks money making venture post. The only thing I see (like every other contractor with a Web Site, Facebook, Twitter or YouTube etc.) are his links in his signature. FYI - your signature, is not a post - period!

I did go to his Paint hacker site. Question: how many of his mags did you or anyone else from Paint Talk buy? My guess would be, ZERO to NOT MANY! So don't assume Jack is making a ton of cash - coz, his is not. I know from experience, selling stuff like that on the web is not an easy sale.

Jack - I am behind you man - I enjoy your posts! :thumbup:


----------



## DeanV

All I ask as a member here is this: If you want to say great things about a product, name the product. If you want to say a product is bad, name the product.

I appreciate all the testing that JP does. Great, keep up the good work.

But, dropping half info and stories with links to the website in the signature to sell stuff to members here or drive them to a website is borderline abuse of the system (in my personal opinion as a moderator). Sure, we are all allowed links in the signature area, but some forms of posting are designed to try to drive members to those sites instead of answering questions here. That kind of violates the intent and spirit of posting here.

I used to use BM Vapor Barrier latex primer. Sanded great, should have great hold out, but did not and exhibited some of the issues JP mentions especially with netural colors. Switched back to 253 primer and it was fine, but not our favorite.

Settled on PPG 6-2 primer for now. Better hold out due to sheen on primer.


----------



## cardwizzard

MuraCoat said:


> Please direct me to Jacks money making venture post. The only thing I see (like every other contractor with a Web Site, Facebook, Twitter or YouTube etc.) are his links in his signature. FYI - your signature, is not a post - period!
> 
> I did go to his Paint hacker site. Question: how many of his mags did you or anyone else from Paint Talk buy? My guess would be, ZERO to NOT MANY! So don't assume Jack is making a ton of cash - coz, his is not. I know from experience, selling stuff like that on the web is not an easy sale.
> 
> Jack - I am behind you man - I enjoy your posts! :thumbup:


Why don't you ask Jack if he recieves any sort of compensation from either Behr, Wooster or any other companies he promotes.


----------



## Xmark

DeanV said:


> All I ask as a member here is this: If you want to say great things about a product, name the product. If you want to say a product is bad, name the product.
> 
> I appreciate all the testing that JP does. Great, keep up the good work.
> 
> But, dropping half info and stories with links to the website in the signature to sell stuff to members here or drive them to a website is borderline abuse of the system (in my personal opinion as a moderator). Sure, we are all allowed links in the signature area, but some forms of posting are designed to try to drive members to those sites instead of answering questions here. That kind of violates the intent and spirit of posting here.
> 
> I used to use BM Vapor Barrier latex primer. Sanded great, should have great hold out, but did not and exhibited some of the issues JP mentions especially with netural colors. Switched back to 253 primer and it was fine, but not our favorite.
> 
> Settled on PPG 6-2 primer for now. Better hold out due to sheen on primer.


Bingo, well put.


----------



## MuraCoat

DeanV said:


> All I ask as a member here is this: If you want to say great things about a product, name the product. If you want to say a product is bad, name the product.
> 
> I appreciate all the testing that JP does. Great, keep up the good work.
> 
> _But, dropping half info and stories with links to the website in the signature to sell stuff to members here or drive them to a website is borderline abuse of the system (in my personal opinion as a moderator). Sure, we are all allowed links in the signature area, but some forms of posting are designed to try to drive members to those sites instead of answering questions here. That kind of violates the intent and spirit of posting here._
> 
> I used to use BM Vapor Barrier latex primer. Sanded great, should have great hold out, but did not and exhibited some of the issues JP mentions especially with netural colors. Switched back to 253 primer and it was fine, but not our favorite.
> 
> Settled on PPG 6-2 primer for now. Better hold out due to sheen on primer.


I don't know if you are saying JP is posting to do as you stated above. In my opinion, he is not violating PT TOS. I wasn't even aware of his links until members here made me curious. 

I don't see JP having links in his signature reading: Check Out My Mag For Sale. Therefore, it's not fair to assume JP's intent is as you have described.


----------



## MuraCoat

cardwizzard said:


> Why don't you ask Jack if he recieves any sort of compensation from either Behr, Wooster or any other companies he promotes.


It is none of my concern - really.

I am sure Behr & Wooster don't rely on Jack Paul to promote their products, and the thought of that is silly. 

At best, Jack endorses their products and may get some "limited freebees" and/or discounts from them... Jack is not a famous actor with a Behr commercial on nation-wide TV... Come on boys and girls.. Cut the guy a break


----------



## cardwizzard

MuraCoat said:


> It is none of my concern - really.
> 
> I am sure Behr & Wooster don't rely on Jack Paul to promote their products, and the thought of that is silly.
> 
> At best, Jack endorses their products and may get some "limited freebees" and/or discounts from them... Jack is not a famous actor with a Behr commercial on nation-wide TV... Come on boys and girls.. Cut the guy a break


So he by your own admission endorses certain brands, yet you cant see the conflict when he comes here pushing them?

Time to smell the coffee.


----------



## CApainter

I guess being a less refined painter then most here, I don't see any one particular brand as the Holy Grail of paint. And with a limited knowledge of paint chemistry, I have to rely on adequate logistics, sufficient applications, and the poor eye sight of the person signing off my work.


----------



## MuraCoat

cardwizzard said:


> So he by your own admission endorses certain brands, yet you cant see the conflict when he comes here pushing them?
> 
> Time to smell the coffee.


You need to work on "reading comprehension"...
I never admitted anything. I have no idea what Jack has going on. I only stated, "At best, Jack endorses their products". That was just a guess on my part, to an unknown claim that you and others are making.


----------



## HeadHoncho

cardwizzard said:


> So he by your own admission endorses certain brands, yet you cant see the conflict when he comes here pushing them?
> 
> Time to smell the coffee.


You got it all wrong. JP uses products that work nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## cardwizzard

HeadHoncho said:


> You got it all wrong. JP uses products that work nothing more, nothing less.


So he doesn't recieve compensation from said companies?


----------



## cardwizzard

MuraCoat said:


> You need to work on "reading comprehension"...
> I never admitted anything. I have no idea what Jack has going on. I only stated, "At best, Jack endorses their products". That was just a guess on my part, to an unknown claim that you and others are making.


Does he or doesn't he? It's not rocket science.

Btw, i dont really care. But its nice if ppl are honest and not come up with a smokescreen to promote products. Just tell us.


----------



## HeadHoncho

cardwizzard said:


> So he doesn't recieve compensation from said companies?


It's like Muracoat said you don't get money unless you do commercials. They may send freebies but that's all. It's like Scott and festool!


----------



## cardwizzard

HeadHoncho said:


> It's like Muracoat said you don't get money unless you do commercials. They may send freebies but that's all. It's like Scott and festool!


Okay, if you believe that i'd say we're wrapped up here.


----------



## vermontpainter

Hey Honcho, er, Mr Editor, I don't have a dog in this one. I knew when Bri invoked me out of the blue and out of context in post 265 that I smelled a rat, but I went along. 

I think its clear, you guys did a good job placing your new thing in front of members, whatever. 

BTW...what are the "unique advertising opportunities" listed on the ph site?


----------



## cardwizzard

He will be back in an hour after he consults with ahem


----------



## MuraCoat

cardwizzard said:


> Does he or doesn't he? It's not rocket science.
> 
> Btw, i dont really care. But its nice if ppl are honest and not come up with a smokescreen to promote products. Just tell us.


You are just a suspicious minded person. 

It's none of my concern. But I am sure, no one here, is making a huge difference for his cause - whatever that cause may be. :whistling2:


----------



## HeadHoncho

vermontpainter said:


> Hey Honcho, er, Mr Editor, I don't have a dog in this one. I knew when Bri invoked me out of the blue and out of context in post 265 that I smelled a rat, but I went along.
> 
> I think its clear, you guys did a good job placing your new thing in front of members, whatever.
> 
> BTW...what are the "unique advertising opportunities" listed on the ph site?


Who is bri, confused? What page is that on, I'm mobile only now days.


----------



## cardwizzard

I like to weigh up the evidence in my own mind. I just dont listen to what ppl tell me.


----------



## vermontpainter

HeadHoncho said:


> Who is bri, confused? What page is that on, I'm mobile only now days.


Batman to your Robin? :thumbup:

No worries. Not worth tracking down. How in the heck are you supposed to edit a publication from your phone if you can't navigate a forum? No wonder the thing hasn't come out yet! 

Anyways, enjoy your weekend.


----------



## Xmark

Bri,Jack,Paul,brian,batman,robin

i'm confused


----------



## Workaholic

I use ppg 6-2 as a primer and two topcoats for NC. Nothing worthy of secrets. I am old school though and was always taught that eggshells needed primers and not to put them on raw drywall JP apparently has no such reservations. 

I am really curious why primer #24 is such a secret since JP has been asked many times but will not say. If you don't want to tell us the best primer name then referring to it as primer 24 sucks too imo. Maybe it is not out on the market yet and was a manufactures test?


----------



## Workaholic

Xmark said:


> Bri,Jack,Paul,brian,batman,robin
> 
> i'm confused


It is an enigma wrapped in bacon.


----------



## Xmark

Workaholic said:


> I use ppg 6-2 as a primer and two topcoats for NC. Nothing worthy of secrets. I am old school though and was always taught that eggshells needed primers and not to put them on raw drywall JP apparently has no such reservations.
> 
> I am really curious why primer #24 is such a secret since JP has been asked many times but will not say. If you don't want to tell us the best primer name then referring to it as primer 24 sucks too imo. Maybe it is not out on the market yet and was a manufactures test?



clever


----------



## jack pauhl

Workaholic said:


> I use ppg 6-2 as a primer and two topcoats for NC. Nothing worthy of secrets. I am old school though and was always taught that eggshells needed primers and not to put them on raw drywall JP apparently has no such reservations.
> 
> I am really curious why primer #24 is such a secret since JP has been asked many times but will not say. If you don't want to tell us the best primer name then referring to it as primer 24 sucks too imo. Maybe it is not out on the market yet and was a manufactures test?


We got off track, so the point I was making is this… I said earlier in this thread that some "paints" will do in 1 coat over bare drywall what 23 other primers/sealers can't do even after 4 coats of paint. A total of 5 coats! Including 6-2.

If you were to apply a 4th coat of paint over the previous photo with the orange arrows, the results would be the same. All mud areas will flash because the primer coat never sealed the surface. 

Goes to show how important the primer coat is as to how paint will behave subsequently over it. That affects sheen uniformity/holdout, achieving true depth of color, making wall patches, touch-ups, scrubability, durability, adhesion, amount of material used, spread rates etc. 

This is why I will not put a primer on new drywall of less capabilities than the finish paint I use. That is pointless and affects everything in the previous paragraph. 

As I was saying... if 1 primer plus 2 coats of paint are not sealing the drywall but (one coat of paint will) see green wall photo, then what is the point of wasting labor and materials on the prime coat?

#24 is not as important as the fact that only 1 of 24 actually "sealed" and "equalized" the surface. None of the others did at all. #24 is also not important because 2 coats of BEHR outperforms it anyway. Its irrelevant to the point I was making.


----------



## jack pauhl

Sean, this is true what you wrote "I am old school though and was always taught that eggshells needed primers and not to put them on raw drywall JP apparently has no such reservations." 

BUT we are not talking about eggshell paint, we are talking about BEHR Eggshell paint.

The point in all of this is that, yes, many eggshell paints need help-along primers but that doesn't mean any primer, that means a primer that provides hold-out and great sealing properties. 

So it is true in thinking that eggshell paints typically require something to help achieve true color and uniform sheen with touch-ups that blend.

So it sounds like whatever eggshell paint you are applying on your NC requires something to help achieve the look you are after. I suppose otherwise you would not be applying 6-2


----------



## jack pauhl

Few more photos for scrutiny. I took 288 of this primer test if anyone needs more.


----------



## jack pauhl

This is a great video for demonstrating how proper sealing properties using Gardz assists with sheen uniformity/holdout, achieving true depth of color, making wall patches, touch-ups, scrubability, durability, adhesion, amount of material used, spread rates etc...and speed. 

This was 168 square ft painted by 0:45 secs which is 1 minute 30 secs played back real-time. When I finished rolling this ceiling, the place I started was just as wet as when I finished. 

Having a sealed equalized (single) surface is everything when it comes to achieving maximum efficiency and the overall quality in the level of finish in fewer coats. I could have easily one coated this ceiling over Gardz but this was just a base coat for a ceiling that would later be trimmed out in 15 boxes.

One coat of Gardz, one coat of Kilz Dead Flat. That is the longest you will ever see a dead flat stay wet.


----------



## Bender

There's probably some good info in this thread, but I'm not reading through 350 posts to find it.


----------



## Jmayspaint

jack pauhl said:


> Few more photos for scrutiny. I took 288 of this primer test if anyone needs more.


 Assuming this testing is done with the Behr PP ultra flat enamel #1750. Doesn't this test just prove that this paint works better if the directions are followed? 

Have you done testing on any other self priming latex paints?


----------



## robladd

*Confession*



HeadHoncho said:


> Okay everyone on PT must remove signatures to money making ventures, starting today! Lol


Its Sunday, is this a confession. Comparing JP to VP is like comparing a high school library to a University.

Your smoke and mirrors may fool some, but not all.


----------



## Xmark

robladd said:


> Its Sunday, is this a confession. Comparing JP to VP is like comparing a high school library to a University.
> 
> Your smoke and mirrors may fool some, but not all.


Looks like he found a new groupie...err editor.


----------



## caulktheline

jack pauhl said:


> BUT we are not talking about eggshell paint, we are talking about BEHR Eggshell paint.


chit's got real eggshells in it dawg


----------



## Paintdian

This thread is like a unstoppable blaze. I cant help but to make another post. The private jobs that I have done with BEHR Ultra were eggshell. The fact that the first coat onto bare drywall leaves a eggshell sheen that is stronger then first coat of regular eggshell paint over regular drywall primer is the sting. You walk into a new job with bare drywall and leave with the whole place popping in the colors requested in one stop. When you return for coat number two, you leave with %100 eggshell sheen with walls that look like glass. Its unreal and its real. What more can I say.


----------



## Oden

Bender said:


> There's probably some good info in this thread, but I'm not reading through 350 posts to find it.


----------



## plainpainter

This thread is hilarious - when does Havanas get the boot? I got booted for like 3 months for calling him out as a fraud, you guys were all suck-ups then - how times have changed.


----------



## Workaholic

jack pauhl said:


> #24 is not as important as the fact that only 1 of 24 actually "sealed" and "equalized" the surface. None of the others did at all. #24 is also not important because 2 coats of BEHR outperforms it anyway. Its irrelevant to the point I was making.


I disagree. If only one primer is proving true I think the info should be shared. Share the info and I will try it and determine if it is the holy grail of primers. 



jack pauhl said:


> Sean, this is true what you wrote "I am old school though and was always taught that eggshells needed primers and not to put them on raw drywall JP apparently has no such reservations."
> 
> BUT we are not talking about eggshell paint, we are talking about BEHR Eggshell paint.
> 
> The point in all of this is that, yes, many eggshell paints need help-along primers but that doesn't mean any primer, that means a primer that provides hold-out and great sealing properties.
> 
> So it is true in thinking that eggshell paints typically require something to help achieve true color and uniform sheen with touch-ups that blend.
> 
> So it sounds like whatever eggshell paint you are applying on your NC requires something to help achieve the look you are after. I suppose otherwise you would not be applying 6-2


Interior eggshell that I use is typically ppg's pure performance. Maybe it works fine without a sealer on new drywall but like I said I was taught to seal the walls for egg and that is what I do. 

I have used behr and I just don't see it as the holy grail you portray it to be. You should come to one of my jobs and show me all my inefficiencies. 



plainpainter said:


> This thread is hilarious - when does Havanas get the boot? I got booted for like 3 months for calling him out as a fraud, you guys were all suck-ups then - how times have changed.


I think I banned you but I was never a suck up. I just felt your approach sucked. Now I am out of the loop and that is other ppls decision.


----------



## wje

HOLY SH!T

After reading 19 pages of this, the only thing that is clear to me is that JP is developing a "Jack Pack", if you will.

I was supposed to prime a place tomorrow, now I am not sure anymore....


----------



## Ole34

Maybe we need to move the Behr an Primer threads to the PZ zone ?


----------



## Sherwin1394

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> But it's hard to believe that a $ 26ish product from Homedepot performs way better than any product from SW including Emerald. not all my customers can afford BM Aura and every single time someone wants a deep red, bright yellow my first tought is Behr Ultra. I have used plenty of it.
> 
> Thanks to Jack I decided to give a try and I was very impressed. how can Homedepot have this great wall paint and Sherwin Williams can't come out with a product closer to Ultra after all of these years.
> Emerald is nothing close and is almost 3 times the cost of Behr Ultra.


If SW can't come out with a product as good as behr ultra, why are they selling all the paint for the exterior of the home depots? :001_huh:


----------



## Oden

Sherwin1394 said:


> If SW can't come out with a product as good as behr ultra, why are they selling all the paint for the exterior of the home depots? :001_huh:


I paimted a few Home Depots over the years. both interior and exterior work. did not use Behr. you'd almost think it would be specked on the repaints. or at least some product that they sell would be specked. It is not.


----------



## Sherwin1394

Oden said:


> I paimted a few Home Depots over the years. both interior and exterior work. did not use Behr. you'd almost think it would be specked on the repaints. or at least some product that they sell would be specked. It is not.


You can't deny the humor in it. However, I'm by no means bashing the product. I've used Behr many times in my college painting days and rarely had issues (that were solely the paints fault). A little thick for more liking but nothing a little XIM latex X-tender didn't take care of. If you can't get Emerald to look good in two coats, I'm sorry but you're not doing something right. It has higher solids AND higher levels of titanium dioxide than behr ultra... 
Naturally I have a hard time believing that it doesn't cover or hide as well behr. Maybe if you're putting it on with a mohair roller.


----------



## MuraCoat

*Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility*



Rcon said:


> I am going to use the same conditions for both. I will be using white primer under my other red as well. And the HD person recommended a pink primer, *but to use one would have given the Behr product an unfair advantage*.


*Rcon used "General Paint - Red Base" vs. "Behr's Deep Base".* 


Do you understand the advantage General Paint had being a red base formula? OMG!
Red Base comes red from the factory and requires much less tint to achieve its desired color.
Deep Base requires much more tint than a Red Base formula = harder to obtain coverage (this applies to all brands).
No one noticed this?

Then he failed to apply the paints as recommended by the manufacture? OMG!

Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


Rcon said:


> These paints were given the exact same tests in the exact same conditions.


Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


Rcon said:


> HP is my "standard" wall paint while your Behr is supposed to be a premium product. It failed to pass the most basic tests that a painter finds important. I intend to continue testing these paints, to chemical resistance, water resistance, abrasion resistance, impact resistance, and will subject both to alcohol spills and extreme heat. I look forward to shaming your paint further.


Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


Rcon said:


> To use 'my' standard primer under the behr would have given the behr an advantage - thus it would not be an apples to apples comparison.


Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


----------



## RH

Muracoat the HD salesperson is not the manufacturer. The red base vs. deep base is a valid point though. Does Behr even have a red base?


----------



## Schmidt & Co.

So what are you trying to say Mura?


----------



## vermontpainter

Schmidt & Co. said:


> So what are you trying to say Mura?


I went back and read Rcon's original test, but didn't see where that other fellow who said he would do the same test actually did it. Might you be able to direct me to the correct page?

Btw, Alec was a good member. Miss that dude.


----------



## MikeCalifornia

I say its impossible to get a true red in a deep base. Working in paint stores for 20 years, you would need a neutral base in the least to get a red color, otherwise your red would be super saturated with white to start which would be a muted pink/mauveish color.


----------



## straight_lines

MuraCoat said:


> *Rcon used "General Paint - Red Base" vs. "Behr's Deep Base".*
> 
> 
> Do you understand the advantage General Paint had being a red base formula? OMG!
> Red Base comes red from the factory and requires much less tint to achieve its desired color.
> Deep Base requires much more tint than a Red Base formula = harder to obtain coverage (this applies to all brands).
> No one noticed this?
> 
> Then he failed to apply the paints as recommended by the manufacture? OMG!
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility



If the kid with three months experience at *Home Depot* had any credibility he would have mixed the paint in the correct base. That is the big box experience you love so much.


----------



## MuraCoat

straight_lines said:


> If the kid with three months experience at Home Depot had any credibility he would have mixed the paint in the correct base. That is the big box experience you love so much.


Do you have The Home Depot associates employment record? and can you verify the associates employment history? we know the answer to that question correct?

FYI - the computer tells the paint clerk which base is the proper base. For the Behr color that rcon chose for his test, deep base was the correct base.

Some manufacturers do not have red base formulas.


----------



## MuraCoat

MikeCalifornia said:


> I say its impossible to get a true red in a deep base. Working in paint stores for 20 years, you would need a neutral base in the least to get a red color, otherwise your red would be super saturated with white to start which would be a muted pink/mauveish color.


Nevertheless, a red base formula will always cover better than a deep base formula.


----------



## RH

I am continually amazed at the passion put into these discussions about Behr versus anything else. People should just use what they like and know works well for them and screw what anybody else cares or says.


----------



## kmp

19 pages of a whole lot of not very much.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Here you go

....


----------



## daArch

MuraCoat said:


> *Rcon used "General Paint - Red Base" vs. "Behr's Deep Base".*
> 
> 
> Do you understand the advantage General Paint had being a red base formula? OMG!
> Red Base comes red from the factory and requires much less tint to achieve its desired color.
> Deep Base requires much more tint than a Red Base formula = harder to obtain coverage (this applies to all brands).
> No one noticed this?
> 
> Then he failed to apply the paints as recommended by the manufacture? OMG!
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


Mura,

You've noted before how people appear to show a bit of hostility towards you, calling you argumentative etc.

I read this post of yours and I understand why some PT'ers may be a little harsh with you. Certainly you could have made your point without being so harshly judgmental towards a long time PT member.


----------



## driftweed

What would be a true apples to apples test? One that the results could not be argued. Is that even possible? I am starting to think not.


----------



## daArch

driftweed said:


> What would be a true apples to apples test? One that the results could not be argued. Is that even possible? I am starting to think not.


An open mind is willing to gain information that could change perceptions. No amount of evidence can sway the convictions of a closed mind.


----------



## MuraCoat

daArch said:


> Mura,
> 
> You've noted before how people appear to show a bit of hostility towards you, calling you argumentative etc.
> 
> I read this post of yours and I understand why some PT'ers may be a little harsh with you. *Certainly you could have made your point without being so harshly judgmental towards a long time PT member*.


You are right, I was tough on Rcon. I know he is a good guy! Sorry Rcon... 

I secretly want to be a Lawyer. Would love to hear a judge bang his gavel and state, "The Plaintiff has no credibility, John Doe, you may step down from the bench"... "ruling in favor of the defendant"!


----------



## Workaholic

MuraCoat said:


> *Rcon used "General Paint - Red Base" vs. "Behr's Deep Base".*
> 
> 
> Do you understand the advantage General Paint had being a red base formula? OMG!
> 
> Red Base comes red from the factory and requires much less tint to achieve its desired color.
> Deep Base requires much more tint than a Red Base formula = harder to obtain coverage (this applies to all brands).
> No one noticed this?
> 
> Then he failed to apply the paints as recommended by the manufacture? OMG!
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility
> 
> Rcon's Paint test = No Credibility


 Each manufacturer deals with bases and tints differently so the base could be a valid point but your tact sucks.

Having gotten to know Alec some over the years and seeing his painting abilities, his cabinet refinishing, and his website building abilities I would never say he lacks credibility.


----------



## MuraCoat

This is a Red Base formula from SW. This is actually the base without any tints (as you can see, it's red before making your color of choice.

I believe a deep base is 'white' which requires more tints than a Red Base to make your color of choice (Deep base = less hide).


----------



## MuraCoat

Workaholic said:


> Each manufacturer deals with bases and tints differently so the base could be a valid point but your *tact sucks*.
> 
> Having gotten to know Alec some over the years and seeing his painting abilities, his cabinet refinishing, and his website building abilities I would never say he lacks credibility.


I agree, But I am frustrated by people that just don't know exactly why or why not, a product performs better than another. 

I'm sure he is a good painter. But paint chemistry is a completely different area of expertise.


----------



## straight_lines

Aren't you the one who said originally the base in his test was wrong? 

Alec was an absolute professional. You can try and shoot holes I his basement test but it won't change that I and others think you are employed by either HD or the parent company of behr. No one can be that in love with a paint.

Start posting pictures of your companies work and I will change my mind.


----------



## NCPaint1

MuraCoat said:


> I agree, But I am frustrated by people that just don't know exactly why or why not, a product performs better than another.
> 
> I'm sure he is a good painter. But paint chemistry is a completely different area of expertise.


Also application techniques vary. You can never do a proper 1/1 comparison with any product in a real world scenario. BM Aura works best with a tight nap 3/8", if you use that same skin with a different product that might not get the best results. The product you're comparing to might work best with a 3/4" micro, so using the wrong roller might skew results.


----------



## wje

straight_lines said:


> Aren't you the one who said originally the base in his test was wrong?
> 
> Alec was an absolute professional. You can try and shoot holes I his basement test but it won't change that I and others think you are employed by either HD or the parent company of behr. No one can be that in love with a paint.
> 
> Start posting pictures of your companies work and I will change my mind.


Agreed, I'd love to see some Mura action shots or a website or something!


----------



## MuraCoat

straight_lines said:


> Aren't you the one who said originally the base in his test was wrong?
> 
> Alec was an absolute professional. You can try and shoot holes I his basement test but it won't change that I and others think you are employed by either HD or the parent company of behr. No one can be that in love with a paint.
> 
> Start posting pictures of your companies work and I will change my mind.


In correct!

Strawman Argument!

**************************************


TEST RESULTS
General Paint was made with Red Base - Behr was made with Deep Base *(this is not comparing apples to apples - red base paints hide better than deep base paints).* 
Alec did not apply paints over the grey tinted primer as recommended by Behr. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*
Alec did not allow a 30 day cure time prior to doing any type of scrubbing/washing tests as recommended by ALL paint manufactures. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*


----------



## Oden

daArch said:


> Mura,
> 
> You've noted before how people appear to show a bit of hostility towards you, calling you argumentative etc.
> 
> I read this post of yours and I understand why some PT'ers may be a little harsh with you. Certainly you could have made your point without being so harshly judgmental towards a long time PT member.


it.'s a two streeter thing....LOL.


----------



## Cam3sc

MuraCoat said:


> This is a Red Base formula from SW. This is actually the base without any tints (as you can see, it's red before making your color of choice.
> 
> I believe a deep base is 'white' which requires more tints than a Red Base to make your color of choice (Deep base = less hide).


The factory colors i/e Black/Yellow/Safety Orarange/Red are premixed because the pigments are higher quality then at the store level. The pigments at you local store isn't the same as the batch from the factory/thus it covers better


----------



## straight_lines

MuraCoat said:


> In correct!
> 
> Strawman Argument!
> 
> **************************************
> 
> 
> TEST RESULTS
> General Paint was made with Red Base - Behr was made with Deep Base *(this is not comparing apples to apples - red base paints hide better than deep base paints).*
> Alec did not apply paints over the grey tinted primer as recommended by Behr. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*
> Alec did not allow a 30 day cure time prior to doing any type of scrubbing/washing tests as recommended by ALL paint manufactures. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*


Fair smare.

Your matching computer is doing it wrong. Does Home Depot even stock a red base? Does Behr even make one? Special order? Doubt the guy behind the counter was much help. 

So my original understanding about the store not getting it right was correct?


----------



## Workaholic

MuraCoat said:


> In correct!
> 
> Strawman Argument!
> 
> **************************************
> 
> 
> TEST RESULTS
> 
> General Paint was made with Red Base - Behr was made with Deep Base *(this is not comparing apples to apples - red base paints hide better than deep base paints).*
> Alec did not apply paints over the grey tinted primer as recommended by Behr. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*
> Alec did not allow a 30 day cure time prior to doing any type of scrubbing/washing tests as recommended by ALL paint manufactures. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*


This is a very old thread and I lack the energy to go back so many pages but I know for a fact in the latest JP posts he expressed that primer was unnecessary at all. So if bear needs no primer and Alec picked the non approved gray what is the difference? 

You know Mura I kinda like you. I do not think you are a hd stooge/plant since you said you prefer other products but when it comes to you it always seems to be more about your delivery rather than the message. Hope if you stick around you can refine that.


----------



## Bender

Cam3sc said:


> The factory colors i/e Black/Yellow/Safety Orarange/Red are premixed because the pigments are higher quality then at the store level. The pigments at you local store isn't the same as the batch from the factory/thus it covers better


I find it amusing that Scheister-Williams, biggest paint company in tha world!, doesn't offer a factory ground black.


----------



## mudbone

MuraCoat said:


> You are right, I was tough on Rcon. I know he is a good guy! Sorry Rcon...
> 
> I secretly want to be a Lawyer. Would love to hear a judge bang his gavel and state, "The Plaintiff has no credibility, John Doe, you may step down from the bench"... "ruling in favor of the defendant"!


Funny I thought you would rather hear " behr false witness":whistling2:


----------



## Sherwin1394

Bender said:


> I find it amusing that Scheister-Williams, biggest paint company in tha world!, doesn't offer a factory ground black.


3rd biggest. And they actually do just not in every product.


----------



## Bender

Nice! Any int./ext. residential repaint products?


----------



## RH

Almost 400 posts about Behr paint...


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo

Behr is not worthy of 400 posts


----------



## Krittterkare

Behr is saggy is what I say!

I have used the exterior paint on bad siding that had to be heavily coated and looked back and sags everywhere! On a cooler day brush and rolling trim I had to sit for minutes around windows to keep the sags away but you can not lay it on thick enough to cover with out it sagging sometimes.

Using Behr on interiors cutting in the walls in around ceilings the same thing you can not apply enough paint to cover with out sags. 

I think the cured product is durable and I have used the solid water based stains and thought they were fine except I think it was the water clean up oil based stain that was just about impossible to apply with a pad or brush and roller and had to break out the masker and sprayer.

The marketing is geared toward homeowners and like previous posts mentioned Sherwin Williams both companies have decent products I must say that the smell of Behr paint is kind of noxious.


----------



## paintpimp

Bender said:


> Nice! Any int./ext. residential repaint products?


Promar 400 stock black
All Surface Enamel stock black, latex and oil
Used to have all ext paints in tricorn black, may be able to find one yet
Ind enamel, metalatex, dtm, shercryl, kem 4000 are just a few with safety black
krylon comes in all sorts of black options


----------



## paintpimp

Bender said:


> I find it amusing that Scheister-Williams, biggest paint company in tha world!, doesn't offer a factory ground black.


:no: 

Size of a company has no relevance if they have a specific stock color, goes by demand


----------



## Rcon

Mura - Kiss my ass pal. I could give two chits what you think of my admittedly "non scientific" paint test. 

This thread is ancient. Stop digging it up and just let it go already


----------



## straight_lines

Haven't seen you around in a while. How is school going Alec?


----------



## MuraCoat

Rcon said:


> Mura - Kiss my ass pal. I could give two chits what you think of my admittedly "non scientific" paint test.
> 
> This thread is ancient. Stop digging it up and just let it go already


Thank you. Old to you however new to me!

And a note to gibberish 45, I am the furthest thing from a Behr representative. And also, your wife is not cheating on you with the milk man. Haha


----------



## RH

MuraCoat said:


> Thank you. Old to you however new to me!
> 
> And a note to gibberish 45, I am the furthest thing from a Behr representative. And also, your wife is not cheating on you with the milk man. Haha



Well you certainly aren't a paint contractor of 22 years by your own admission. That means every post you have made about how you run your business is false. Why believe this also?


----------



## MuraCoat

Gibberish45 said:


> Well you certainly aren't a paint contractor of 22 years by your own admission. That means every post you have made about how you run your business is false. Why believe this also?


Firstly, I consider your posts to be harassment and a violation of Paint talks TOS.

Secondly I've been a painter since 1977, and running my own business since 1989. I probably know more about painting then you and 99.99 percent of the painters on this forum.

Arch, I'm done with this guy.


----------



## RH

MuraCoat said:


> Firstly, I consider your posts to be harassment and a violation of Paint talks TOS.
> 
> Secondly I've been a painter since 1977, and running my own business since 1989. I probably know more about painting then you and 99.99 percent of the painters on this forum.
> 
> Arch, I'm done with this guy.


So you aren't going to explain your intro post then? Where you said you were considering starting a business in January of this year? 

You were having fun calling out Rcon as being not credible over the base of his paint test. Now you're crying harassment? :thumbsup:


----------



## MuraCoat

Gibberish45 said:


> So you aren't going to explain your intro post then? Where you said you were considering starting a business in January of this year?
> 
> You were having fun calling out Rcon as being not credible over the base of his paint test. Now you're crying harassment? :thumbsup:


Rcon's, test was not credible. I never stated that he himself was not credible. Alec is a painter, not a paint chemist. He doesn't have the qualifications to be doing valid paint tests.


----------



## RH

You're a piece of work talking about being qualified for anything. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away. I'm gonna back off for now, not for you but so the PT mods don't have to stress all day.

The facts speak for themselves here anyway.


----------



## wje

MuraCoat said:


> Firstly, I consider your posts to be harassment and a violation of Paint talks TOS.
> 
> Secondly I've been a painter since 1977, and running my own business since 1989. I probably know more about painting then you and 99.99 percent of the painters on this forum.
> 
> Arch, I'm done with this guy.


If you knew that much you would know it is maybe time to retire from this forum. You are an arrogant piece of work that is for sure. Best of luck pal.


----------



## ewingpainting.net




----------



## RH

No good ever comes from Behr paint - even including when you're not applying it.


----------



## Bender

This is what happens when paperhangers moderate:whistling2:


----------



## Bender

That was a joke people. Calm down.


----------



## MuraCoat

Here is my proof of business ownership.
Trade name certificate - My business and residence has changed since 1989.
Here are some of the products in my truck.
*Gibberish45** - please provide your trade name certificate - with the date you started your company shown.* 
*********************************************************

Here is my opinion of Rcon's Behr Paint testing.



TEST RESULTS
General Paint was made with Red Base - Behr was made with Deep Base *(this is not comparing apples to apples - red base paints hide better than deep base paints).* 
Alec did not apply paints over the grey tinted primer as recommended by Behr. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*
Alec did not allow a 30 day cure time prior to doing any type of scrubbing/washing tests as recommended by ALL paint manufactures. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*


----------



## RH

Obviously something funny is going on cause you refuse to address the one thing that brought your legitimacy into question, your conflicting stories. 

A lot of guys come on here and exaggerate the size of their business, money made, abilities etc. Maybe you started a paint business and it didn't work then inflated your experience as an owner to sound more credible. No one knows but you. We do know that you have told wildly inconsistent stories and cannot or will not explain them.

I think more than likely rather than being a Behr employee, you're lying about your experience as an owner. Both are common here so forgive me if I was incorrect. Why would you post a license from 89 to show you've been an owner for 20 some years? You packed up superior and moved to Texas? C'mon Butch, if that's your name, fess up and let's move forward since it appears you actually may be pushing a brush once in a while. 

Btw I never would go after someone so hard but you rubbed me wrong from day one acting like you know everything and being a jerk to people on this forum, including me. You need to be brought down a few rungs. Truly wise people know they can learn something from anyone.


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## RH

MuraCoat said:


> Here is my proof of business ownership.
> Trade name certificate - My business and residence has changed since 1989.
> Here are some of the products in my truck.
> *Gibberish45** - please provide your trade name certificate - with the date you started your company shown.*
> *********************************************************
> 
> Here is my opinion of Rcon's Behr Paint testing.
> 
> 
> 
> TEST RESULTS
> General Paint was made with Red Base - Behr was made with Deep Base *(this is not comparing apples to apples - red base paints hide better than deep base paints).*
> Alec did not apply paints over the grey tinted primer as recommended by Behr. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*
> Alec did not allow a 30 day cure time prior to doing any type of scrubbing/washing tests as recommended by ALL paint manufactures. *INVALID TEST RESULTS*


Impressive... but that one gallon of Behr destroyed all credibility. :whistling2:

(JK)


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## MuraCoat

Gibberish45 said:


> Obviously something funny is going on cause you refuse to address the one thing that brought your legitimacy into question, your conflicting stories.
> 
> A lot of guys come on here and exaggerate the size of their business, money made, abilities etc. Maybe you started a paint business and it didn't work then inflated your experience as an owner to sound more credible. No one knows but you. We do know that you have told wildly inconsistent stories and cannot or will not explain them.


Yes, there have been times I threw in the towel as far as running my own biz... Since 1989, I have run my own biz 90% of the time. I did work for Lowes for a bit. I did honestly try to get out of the business a few times. Its a rat race...


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## ewingpainting.net

I'm the big fat rat

....


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## Repaint Florida

*Gibberish45 can't you 2 just make up for PT sake?

come on give **MuraCoat a big old Behr hug :whistling2:


*


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## RH

Repaint Florida said:


> *Gibberish45 can't you 2 just make up for PT sake?
> 
> come on give **MuraCoat a big old Behr hug :whistling2:
> 
> 
> *


I thinks it's developing into one of those love/hate things. :yes:


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## RH

Just trying to keep it real around here, ya dig?


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## MuraCoat

Gibberish45 said:


> Obviously something funny is going on cause you refuse to address the one thing that brought your legitimacy into question, your conflicting stories.
> 
> A lot of guys come on here and exaggerate the size of their business, money made, abilities etc. Maybe you started a paint business and it didn't work then inflated your experience as an owner to sound more credible. No one knows but you. We do know that you have told wildly inconsistent stories and cannot or will not explain them.
> 
> I think more than likely rather than being a Behr employee, *you're lying about your experience as an owner.* Both are common here so forgive me if I was incorrect. Why would you post a license from 89 to show you've been an owner for 20 some years? You packed up superior and moved to Texas? C'mon Butch, if that's your name, fess up and let's move forward since it appears you actually may be pushing a brush once in a while.
> 
> Btw I never would go after someone so hard but you rubbed me wrong from day one acting like you know everything and being a jerk to people on this forum, including me. You need to be brought down a few rungs. Truly wise people know they can learn something from anyone.
> 
> *Muracoat exposed as Behr propaganda agent!*


Dude, you need to get a life... This is plain harassment and you are making wild and crazy false claims and accusations. Claims that you have no proof of. You are a delusional man!

First I am a Behr agent (LMAO), now I have more stuff to prove to you? This stuff is laughable... 

I rubbed you the wrong way by proving you wrong! Well, I am sorry you are a poor sport and I am on the winning team.

Here is a pay stub I tracked down from 1984.
Here is my union wage and fringes card.

*I am a very experienced painter and some people (like yourself) confuse knowledge with arrogant.*


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## DeanV

Enough is enough guys.


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## daArch

we are going to have to do something about this subject. Part of being a mod is recognizing flame wars BEFORE they break out.

I can't remember a behr thread that ended well.


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## DeanV

Hey, I suggested banning the word and was shot down.


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## daArch

DeanV said:


> Hey, I suggested banning the word and was shot down.



can we have a recount, or even a recall ?


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