# GARDZ-problem surface sealer?



## A+HomeWork

I have only done a dozen paper removals and all have gone well at different rates of speed, but I just looked at a kitchen job where they have the original 17 year old paper.

Here's what makes me nervous (enough to post on PT!).

The HO showed me the master bath where the paper removal was very difficult to remove and damaged much of the sheetrock. The paper in the kitchen is very tight. No visible peeling that I can see.

THEY are actually suggesting I prime, texture and paint over it to avoid the same headaches. 
1. Is this GARDZ an option for prepping the surface?
2. Is there another option besides trying to strip it?
3. Should I not bid this job, if I have to ask these kinds of questions? 

Thanks for the help!


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## straight_lines

Yes seal all the damage drywall with guards and then mud smooth.


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## Rbriggs82

Are you asking if gardz would work as a primer over the wallpaper or if you should use it on the damaged Sheetrock?


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## ProWallGuy

Before I'd make a decision on whether to strip it or not, test a couple spots to see if or how it comes off. Then bid for the that scenario.


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## A+HomeWork

Rbriggs82 said:


> Are you asking if gardz would work as a primer over the wallpaper or if you should use it on the damaged Sheetrock?


I am asking for something to apply directly to the wallpaper prior to texturing.

(Someone else remedied the bath rock problem.)


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## daArch

PLEASE, only seal the existing paper if it has been hung directly over unprimed drywall - directly to the cardboard facing.

You can test that in any obscure corner.

If the walls were prepped correctly, you will be saving yourself and those after you heart and head aches by stripping it. 

IF it has been hung on raw rock, then go around and test for ANY loose spots and peel them away. Sand seams smooth. then apply a coat of gardz. Now patch and sand those areas where you peeled off the loose paper, any holes, and any seams that my have peeled up when you sanded. I would apply a second coat of gardz to seal all the patches. Now you can pretend the walls are ready for redecorating.


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## A+HomeWork

I was thinking that it must have been applied directly to drywall after looking at the bathroom damage.

I will certainly pull some paper first. I'm not looking for any shortcuts and have stripped the wall coverings on the dozen jobs I've done in the past.

Honestly, this is the smoothest, nicest looking wall paper job I've ever seen, which makes me wonder, but then again, I'm no wallpaper guy either.

I'll do the test and get back on PT.

BTW- deArch, if I do indeed leave it on, is the GARDZ you refer to the problem surface sealer, or what?


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## daArch

A+HomeWork said:


> BTW- deArch, if I do indeed leave it on, is the GARDZ you refer to the problem surface sealer, or what?


yes, there is only one gardz. Unless you can find the ORIGINAL product named Draw-Tite made by Scotch Paint in Gardena, CA


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## chrisn

Personally, I would use Cover Stain to apply over vinyl wallpaper. Gardz is not made for this, nor would I trust it. REAL paper paper, maybe,but , vinyl? no way


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## Rbriggs82

Whenever I encounter paper over bare rock I use gardz to seal it in. It dries super fast which I think lessens your chance of the paper bubbling. 

In all likelihood the HO tore up the walls in the other room because they didn't know what they were doing. As Bill said above do a test sample first then decide which direction to go. HOs are the worst at removing paper.


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## A+HomeWork

chrisn said:


> Personally, I would use Cover Stain to apply over vinyl wallpaper. Gardz is not made for this, nor would I trust it. REAL paper paper, maybe,but , vinyl? no way


Coverstain has become my go-to primer for many applications. I actually THOUGHT about oil priming, then decided to consult PT.

Thanks for all the replies. I will call the customer today to go do some tests and see what I find.


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## daArch

chrisn said:


> Personally, I would use Cover Stain to apply over vinyl wallpaper. Gardz is not made for this, nor would I trust it. REAL paper paper, maybe,but , vinyl? no way


good point Chris, penetrating primers should be applied to absorbent surfaces, not impenetrable surfaces. If they can't penetrate, they bead up and fisheye.


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## BrushJockey

if it's too impenetrable for gardz- you need a bonder. IMO , something like Zin 123 is a better bonder to vinyl than CS.


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## chrisn

BrushJockey said:


> if it's too impenetrable for gardz- you need a bonder. IMO , something like Zin 123 is a better bonder to vinyl than CS.


 
I agree, to a point. 123 is still latex and I have had it bubble when put over paper, never had that happen with CS


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## A+HomeWork

OK! I tried a few seams and the paper releases without too much coaxing, but I could see no evidence of primer. In fact, one area was on a drywall seam and it was joint compound. 

I told them I would just bid the paper removal phase per hour and if it evolved into a nightmarish situation, we'd prime and texture over the rest.

I feel much more comfortable with this and with the demeanor of the HOs too.

BTW-Coverstain is available at my Lowe's here, but no one carries the GARDZ, so I'm glad you recommended against it.


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## daArch

Gardz in not easy to find, in case you need it in the future.

not all reputable paint stores carry it. Call them all. 

the list I have are a hardware store that has a decent paint section, another hardware store that carries EVERYTHING, National Lumber (large building supply center), and prolly the most esteemed paint store in Boston.

S-W doesn't.


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## Builtmany

daArch said:


> Gardz in not easy to find, in case you need it in the future.
> 
> not all reputable paint stores carry it. Call them all.


True, It's not easy to find in my area as of recently. I did notice that it is pretty common in Ace Hardware in my area.


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## A+HomeWork

Builtmany said:


> True, It's not easy to find in my area as of recently. I did notice that it is pretty common in Ace Hardware in my area.


I have an ACE here. I'll check it out.

Although I'm a SW fan, Lowe's is pretty good with their primer choices and ours carries BIN, 123, Bullseye, and oil CS, not to mention all the KILZ offerings.

Thanks again to all for giving me that little confidence boost! PT rocks. :thumbsup:


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## chrisn

I HATE to admit it

but

I actually ordered a 5 last week through HD:blink:

$106 delivered to my front door, no delivery charge:thumbsup:


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## main paint

daArch said:


> PLEASE, only seal the existing paper if it has been hung directly over unprimed drywall - directly to the cardboard facing.
> 
> You can test that in any obscure corner.
> 
> If the walls were prepped correctly, you will be saving yourself and those after you heart and head aches by stripping it.
> 
> IF it has been hung on raw rock, then go around and test for ANY loose spots and peel them away. Sand seams smooth. then apply a coat of gardz. Now patch and sand those areas where you peeled off the loose paper, any holes, and any seams that my have peeled up when you sanded. I would apply a second coat of gardz to seal all the patches. Now you can pretend the walls are ready for redecorating.


what do you think if the paper is directly on plaster (with visible spackle patching done before papering). ready to start a job that I know will get messy. scared to see what lurks behind this paper


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

A+HomeWork said:


> I have an ACE here. I'll check it out.
> 
> Although I'm a SW fan, Lowe's is pretty good with their primer choices and ours carries BIN, 123, Bullseye, and oil CS, not to mention all the KILZ offerings.
> 
> Thanks again to all for giving me that little confidence boost! PT rocks. :thumbsup:


PPG sells Gardz or Homedepot online. :thumbsup:


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## chrisn

main paint said:


> what do you think if the paper is directly on plaster (with visible spackle patching done before papering). ready to start a job that I know will get messy. scared to see what lurks behind this paper


 
any paper can be removed from plaster( and should be):yes:


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## daArch

main paint said:


> what do you think if the paper is directly on plaster (with visible spackle patching done before papering). ready to start a job that I know will get messy. scared to see what lurks behind this paper



if you read what I said, you will understand the ONLY situation I feel it is valid not to strip the old paper. 

HINT: hung on plaster is NOT that situation


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## BrushJockey

Plaster is hard and non absorbent. Easier to remove paper from than sheetrock.
In all cases- clean off paste and prime with gardz. You will probably find cracks in the plaster- need to repair those ( secret screw into lathe method..shhhh)


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## daArch

BrushJockey said:


> Plaster is hard and non absorbent.


respectfully disagree.

Plaster is quite absorbent . In the old days, sizing (thinned paste or GLUE) was needed so that it would not absorb too much of the paste from the paper. Now we seal plaster to give a good non-absorbent (or only slightly absorbent ) surface.


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## BrushJockey

Ok- not as absorbent as say- raw rock or poorly ( builders flat) primed rock.

I seldom have had water that I use to strip with penetrate and wet plaster. have you?

And... THIS! <


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## chrisn

BrushJockey;367228[COLOR=red said:


> ]Ok- not as absorbent as say- raw rock or poorly ( builders flat) primed rock.[/COLOR]
> 
> I seldom have had water that I use to strip with penetrate and wet plaster. have you?
> 
> no
> 
> And... THIS! <


 
we forgive you:thumbsup:


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## daArch

BrushJockey said:


> Ok- not as absorbent as say- raw rock or poorly ( builders flat) primed rock.
> 
> I seldom have had water that I use to strip with penetrate and wet plaster. have you?


No, not rewet plaster. But I have noted that stripping off of old pitted horsehair is a PITA because it does suck up water and getting the old paste completely removed is tedious.

Whereas, 40's & 50's era hard lime finish coat is less porous and easier to strip from.

And then we all have had OLD plaster that has gotten "punky" and turns to mush. Prolly too much sand used.

Not to mention unprimed spackle or JC - but we all know those ain't "plaster"


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## BrushJockey

Interesting. You are in an older part of the country, even though we have lots of grand old girls here from about 1880 forward. I have not seen the horsehair plaster. i have seen horsehair as insulation ( oh ya, that was the good stuff dontchaknow) But I guess mostly limed plaster , even in our older stuff.


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## daArch

if you are unfamiliar with it, they would mix horse hair (and other types) into the base coat as a binder - and I believe the scratch coat also. Many times I have seen the scratch as a final coat, or at least it had a sandier finish than the normal finish coat that has minimum filler in it.


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## Damon T

Hoping someone sees this soon. So to sum it up, if I test the wallpaper, and it is on bare sheetrock, and it absorbs water when splashed or wetted with rag etc, then Gardz would be the way to go. If it is over bare drywall, non-absorbent variety, then CS is the way to go. If it is over a primed type surface then strip if at all possible. I have a large master bedroom the GC wanted primed tomorrow over wallpaper, and I haven't been there yet to check it out. Sounds like I'll have to do a little experimenting and go from there. Thanks for any additional feedback.


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## daArch

Damon T said:


> Hoping someone sees this soon. So to sum it up, if I test the wallpaper, and it is on bare sheetrock, and it absorbs water when splashed or wetted with rag etc, then Gardz would be the way to go. If it is over bare drywall, non-absorbent variety, then CS is the way to go. If it is over a primed type surface then strip if at all possible. I have a large master bedroom the GC wanted primed tomorrow over wallpaper, and I haven't been there yet to check it out. Sounds like I'll have to do a little experimenting and go from there. Thanks for any additional feedback.


in a nutshell, yes.

But when painting or priming over wallpaper (as THE last resort only) you still have to check for loose areas, patch split seams, sand wired seams, and generally check for any flaws that will show through or come loose with the final paint.


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## harmonicarocks

Sometimes it appears paper was hung over raw rock, but back in the eighties, there was a clear pre-wallcovering primer called Bite, which many people used right over the drywall. If you don't get any dust from the drywall seam by rubbing it hard with your finger, chances are it was primed with something like this. It would still be less than ideal, but not the worst case scenario.


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## daArch

Good point harmonicarocks,

DON'T GO BY LOOKS. Test strip and see if the surface gives up the paper. 

If it looks like raw rock, and the facing comes off when stripping, then most likely it is raw rock and needs Plan B.

But if it appears to strip leaving the facing, then any number of clear sealers/prep coats could have been used. (Bite wasn't the ONLY one, there's Shieldz clear, Calif Prep-n-size, Swing, Draw-tite, Gardz, etc etc)


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## Damon T

Thanks guys!!


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## Gwarel

Damon, I just hung over existing paper today. I usually insist on removing the paper if possible, but this was in a walk-in closet and they didn't want the added expense. The new paper had a solid background I didn't have to worry about any see through problems. I primed with R-35. It dries in about an hour and gives some extra grip.


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## Damon T

The walls are gonna get some kinda texture over them after I prime. Knockdown or something.


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## daArch

Damon T said:


> The walls are gonna get some kinda texture over them after I prime. Knockdown or something.


is the paper's paste gonna hold that weight? Considering it was formulated for a layer of PAPER ? 

AND the plaster material used for the knockdown is going to infuse quite a bit of moisture into the paste even through an acrylic primer.

Better put a layer of oil so no moisture rewets the paste.


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## chrisn

daArch said:


> is the paper's paste gonna hold that weight? Considering it was formulated for a layer of PAPER ?
> 
> AND the plaster material used for the knockdown is going to infuse quite a bit of moisture into the paste even through an acrylic primer.
> 
> Better put a layer of oil so no moisture rewets the paste.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> agreed, I was never wild about using Gardz OVER paper, drywall, OK


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## Damon T

Well crap, now you have me worried. We sealed it today with Gardz. It appeared that the paper was installed directly over the drywall. Do you think that putting CS over the Gardz would be a good combo? I think the tapers are coming in on Monday anyways.


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## chrisn

Damon T said:


> Well crap, now you have me worried. We sealed it today with Gardz. It appeared that the paper was installed directly over the drywall. Do you think that putting CS over the Gardz would be a good combo? I think the tapers are coming in on Monday anyways.


 
personally, I would


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## daArch

chrisn said:


> personally, I would



as would I. Just to be sure.

As you may be aware, acrylics will soften with long contact with moisture, especially before cured. A light coating of compound would not worry me, as a matter of fact, an acrylic will slightly re-emulsify and cause a sound bond with the JC. I am a bit concerned (and not 100% knowledgeably) how the weight of the knock down and the extended infusion of moisture would affect the gardz and the bonding strength of the old wallpaper paste. This is a question that should be asked of the chemists.

So in lieu of scientific knowledge, I would coat with something I knew would be impervious to the moisture. 

This all stems from my total mistrust of not removing wallpaper before coating it with anything.

and obviously, I could be completely misguided


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## mudbone

Damon T said:


> Well crap, now you have me worried. We sealed it today with Gardz. It appeared that the paper was installed directly over the drywall. Do you think that putting CS over the Gardz would be a good combo? I think the tapers are coming in on Monday anyways.


Last year I did a job where the homeowner had paneled wallcovering and didnt want it removed so I gardzed over it, applied fibafuse and skimmed with two coats of mud.kinda worried me but I was back there doing some more painting recently and checked it out and it still looks flawless.


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## chrisn

mudbone said:


> Last year I did a job where the homeowner had paneled wallcovering and didnt want it removed so I gardzed over it, applied fibafuse and skimmed with two coats of mud.kinda worried me but I was back there doing some more painting recently and checked it out and it still looks flawless.


 
:blink: huh?


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## straight_lines

Its a type of drywall tape.


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## mudbone

chrisn said:


> :blink: huh?


Sorry for the con"fuse".


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## chrisn

mudbone said:


> Sorry for the con"fuse".


 
never heard of it, but then I don't do a whole lot of drywall work, a big roll of paper tape lasts me a couple years


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## salmangeri

My 2 cents here.....been using Gardz and hating it for many years...great product but very potent even when using fans to quick dry the product....yes I wear a respirator but in commercial areas people start to complain big time about the smell.... Draw tite was recommended on this board and I find it is a very good product as it works just as well as Gardz and is not nearly as potent in smell...they also offer it in a thicker viscosity..... only draw back is it needs to be ordered online...so I usually get it in fives....

I use coverstain when I absolutely have to ( but don't want to) prime over wall paper...the process of applying an oil based product followed by wallpaper paste makes sense to me since oil repels water .....:thumbsup:


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## daArch

salmangeri said:


> My 2 cents here.....been using Gardz and hating it for many years...great product but very potent even when using fans to quick dry the product....yes I wear a respirator but in commercial areas people start to complain big time about the smell.... Draw tite was recommended on this board and I find it is a very good product as it works just as well as Gardz and is not nearly as potent in smell...they also offer it in a thicker viscosity..... only draw back is it needs to be ordered online...so I usually get it in fives....
> 
> I use coverstain when I absolutely have to ( but don't want to) prime over wall paper...the process of applying an oil based product followed by wallpaper paste makes sense to me since oil repels water .....:thumbsup:



Just one minor correction. It works BETTER than Gardz.

Most are familiar with the fact that D-T is the original and that the Big Z reversed engineered it and formulated Gardz with the same resins, but had to use significantly less percentage of it in order not to violate patent laws.

As the story goes, the Big Z offered Scotch a deal to purchase the rights to the formula. Chas (owner of Scotch Paints) said F.U. and so Z reformulated the product to the watered down version they named Gardz.

Scotch Paints has never been able to put together a national distribution system, and so we are stuck with buying the knocked off bastardization. 

Unless you want to order and pay exorbitant shipping OR buy 32 gallons with free shipping. (at least that the way it was some 7 years ago)


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