# Restaining older woodwork.



## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

Hello, I am fairly new to this forum.
I was contacted by a homeowner about painting oak trim. I researched about doing it since I have not had to paint oak before. From what I already know and learned about it I am confident it would turn out, with the homeowner knowing that they would not get away from the grain/texture of the oak. 
As always I am leery about re coating be it clear or paint over old stained/lacquered wood but what are you supposed to do!

Now there cabinet guy gave them another idea that I am supposed to expand on and give them options for. 

I was asked if I could stain over the existing stain.
There reasoning behind painted or re staining is that they don't like the Golden Oak color and that there woodwork is oak. 

I do my staining with brush and wipe method. I have thought about spray staining but old habits are hard to brake. I will have to start look into this method.
I told them that wiping stain on is not an option. I have never sprayed stain but did have to tint lacquer and spray multiple coats to get some doors to the same depth as the rest of the woodwork.
This is the method I suggested as an option. It would change the color of the woodwork and cover up a good deal of the oak grain/texture. Depending on the color they are shooting for I should be able to work with the present golden oak.
While reading though posts lacquer shading was mentioned by a member. I have tried to find the posts again, the member is ewingpainting. The stain is sprayed on first then clear coated. That just tinting the lacquer may not cover the grain/texture up enough?

Any more ideas on this?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Properly finished oak has next to no grain left. Its glassy smooth, feels solid and you cant feel grain, squeaks when you touch it. Would the HO be ok with the grain if you just toned the trim to another color or do they want to cover up that Golden Oak and the grain?

You can make that golden oak dark red burgundy if you want. You happen to be lucky you have a light color to work with.


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

If the oak would have been originally stained a rather dark color and the grain would not have shown though they would most likely be OK with it. What I think catches there eye is the color and that the grain took darker.

I pointed out a free standing piece of furniture with upper and lower doors opened. The upper showed the normal look of a stained door. The lower looked more even like you see if the stain was sprayed on. It was uniformly darker and she liked the idea of that. 

Yes and no on the Golden Oak. Dark seems to be the way they are headed. That means more coats. Can't tint the lacquer much, add to much and it doesn't look right. Also it is easy to go to dark, especially if one piece is already on the darker side. Better to have the ability to do some selective spraying.

If they go as dark as I think they would I would say four coats minimum but more like five.

This is why I ask about spraying the stain on first then clear coating. I just don't know how the two methods compare. I could do some test pieces but I don't know if I will get this job much less have anything like this in the near future.


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

*question*

before you do any staining dont you have to strip the clear finish first for stain to penetrate


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

I would think that if sprayed on it would stay on the surface. Would need to dry FAST and not put on to heavy. But what do I know, I have never sprayed stain on.:yes:


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

spray stain wouldn't bite into the older finish, so no matter what you put over it - it would delaminate. 

You can tone, but this will only get you so far. 

You could strip and restain, but for the time it takes it might be cheaper for them to just get new woodwork installed. 

Painting it is a no-brainer. Just prime and paint with your favorite topcoat.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Gel stains are what you need. I've done quite a few of these projects and have used gel stains with consistent results. I've always used Old Masters and have mixed the different colors to get the desired color. The trick is to working everything to get the desired grain appearence. The nice thing is that you can take a door and practice on it and if you dont like the results - just wipe it off. 

Once you get the technique down and the desired color put on, let it dry and then hit it with a couple double-coats of clear. Sand after the two double coats, so you don't burn through, and apply the final finish coat.

BTW: Spraying stain only really works if you're going to wipe it. Otherwise it looks like hell.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> Gel stains are what you need. I've done quite a few of these projects and have used gel stains with consistent results. I've always used Old Masters and have mixed the different colors to get the desired color. The trick is to working everything to get the desired grain appearence. The nice thing is that you can take a door and practice on it and if you dont like the results - just wipe it off.
> 
> Once you get the technique down and the desired color put on, let it dry and then hit it with a couple double-coats of clear. Sand after the two double coats, so you don't burn through, and apply the final finish coat.
> 
> BTW: Spraying stain only really works if you're going to wipe it. Otherwise it looks like hell.



Couldnt have said it better myself. You stole ALL the words out of my mouth....


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## IL_Painter (Dec 4, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> Couldnt have said it better myself. You stole ALL the words out of my mouth....


was the perfect answer


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## Rick Remaly (Nov 28, 2010)

Poly shade is the way to go, sand surface with 220 vac and use as many coas as it takes to reach your goal!


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

The home owners have now went from some type of re staining the Oak trim and cabinets to all painted oak. Now thanks to an interior decorator they are back to the re staining the oak.

Since the color of the golden oak is not wanted as well as seeing to much grain it is not a negative but a plus to obscure the grain. For this spraying on a stain seams to be the best bet.

I have been told of another method to re stain. Spray a lacquer based stain on with HVLP. Sand only to make sure it is smooth. In the case of areas that could have any type of buildup from use like kitchen cabinets and such to clean with a degrease first. Let dry and sand. Then spray the lacquer stain on. The lacquer stain will to a point melt into the lacquer coats underneath. This is supposed to ensure adhesion compared to using an oil based stain. Then top coat with clear lacquer.
I have done samples and as long as I do at least two to three coats of air brushing the stain it looks uniform.
Questions I have are these:
Is hand sanding with a sanding block before air brushing enough?
Even with multiple coats if it is a darker lacquer wiping stain that is sprayed on I get those tiny specs of tint that looks like there was dust on the surface when you sprayed.
Will using a dye instead and maybe more coats still get the obscured grain look but not those specs? 
Will the dye adhere like the lacquer stain? Some of the dyes I have found are acetone based.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Laz, the problem with doing it as you described is uniformity and productivity. First, you're behind the eight ball because not only has the wood been previously stained and finished, it has also been painted. Removing the paint is one thing, getting the original stain and finish is quite another. Both have probably penetrated with some depth into the wood. Without either stripping and sanding quite a bit of it off, you'll never know how much has penetrated. This will cause problems with the new stains absorption....which will cause a blotchy looking stain job.

There will come a time or point in your experience when you'll look at these jobs and realize and be able to relate to the customer how previously painted/finished woodwork will never take a light or golden stain and look uniform, much less as light as is desired.

Spraying stain is fine, but you can lose a lot of the grain and feature characteristics of the wood - particularly quarter-sawn oak. To me it always looks "muddied". Adding a toner to lacquer does the same thing. You're "covering" the wood - not penetrating it. 

Lacquer based stains and alcohol dyes are two different things. I will brush, or wipe on lacquer based because I have more control over the time and coverage before I wipe it off. Alcohol dyes are used mainly to start with a uniform appearance on all the wood surfaces so that when you use a stain on top, it all looks even. This is because all woods, even the of the same type, will absorb stain differently. Most high-end pre-finished cabinets are done this way.

Hope this helps....and I really hope you're getting paid very well for this. This is the kind of job that deserves it.

Wolf


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

I just want to make sure I am clear on what this woodwork is and what I am hearing from the costumer of what they do not like with the woodwork.

The woodwork is oak that was stained and lacquered. It was never painted. It was stained a golden oak color.

The costumer painted there basement woodwork so they know what it will look like if they have me paint the rest of the trim in the house.

The problem is it costs to much to tare out all trim and cabinets and start over. A basement with painted oak is one thing the rest of a house is a huge step.

The decorator keeps steering them back to making the cabinets and trim darker stained.

My last visit with them went like this:
Bedrooms are to expensive to paint but giving the trim and windows a different color would be the best bet.
The upper hall, foyer, lower hall, and dining room would be all painted. There is no good break and all these rooms flow together.
Rooms with doors would get the same treatment as the bedrooms.
Kitchen living room and a room that will be opened to the kitchen all flow as one. This area is where the decorator is stressing dark stained wood.
By doing the air brushing I can do the two things that I keep hearing from the homeowners. Change the color, and make it so the grain of the oak does not stand out so much.

My concerns are that you do get that muddy look to a point and can I get enough uniformity though out entire room.
Then will this last or will there be an adhesion problem down the line.

I can't see gel staining this entire project.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

I've never tried the gel stain idea but I have seen it done. It can darken pre-sealed trim to a point but IMO it doesn't look right. 

I would be cautious about trying to darken the stain colour. I get asked about doing that a lot because cabinet refinishing is one of my niche services, and there is a way to do it but it's time consuming and expensive - and to be honest it's usually better (and sometimes less expensive) for the customer to simply go get new woodwork. 

What you can do is to mix a custom colour using dyes, thin it out with lacquer thinner (very thinned) and add a small amount (maybe 10%) of finish to the mix. The finish acts as a binder only to make the toner stick to the surface. Because lacquer thinner will flash off quickly, you can go over the piece repeatedly until you get the right colour. What you have to watch out for though is overdarkening and/or obscuring the wood grain. You also need to spray it with a hvlp, putting on just a little bit of colour at a time. This method may take 10 or more coats before you get to the right depth, but it's the only one I know of that can produce decent results over a sealed surface.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Other than either doing new stainwork, or recoating some weathered exterior work, I haven't done too much. It's always been a huge PITA to work with otherwise, and generally I've told people to get new wood too 

I'd like to do more wood refinishing like this, but the huge cost makes it seem almost not worth playing with.


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## kevindominguez (May 10, 2011)

BC_Painter, I agree, it is pretty much costly to do that. I've tried that, and boy did I spend a lot! 
Anyways, guys check this out:  teds woodworking This helped me a lot in my next woodwork job!


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Sounds like a toner situation to me,all you would be doing is shooting a lacquer with some color in it.

I'd spray a sealer over them,sand it smooth,then start toning,2 or 3 coats of toner can make them darker,and obscure the grain,I wouldnt put more than 4 coats on though,too much lacquer too thickly applied causes trouble


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