# Latex over oil help!



## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

I've been painting commercially for four years and this is my first encounter with latex being applied over oil. It's in a house approx. 1600 sq feet, throughout. Obviously it's peeling and I want to ensure the homeowners don't have further problems with it down the road. I'll be repainting in latex.

What's the best way to deal with this? I'm thinking peeling and sanding to get as much of the latex off as possible; then priming with maybe Zinsser's Stop Peel Plus? 

Any words of wisdom or recommendations for primer would be appreciated.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I wouldnt use peel stop. Thats more of a glue for exterior peeling. It doesnt fix adhesion issues. But yeah, all you can do is get as much off as you can, and whatever you topcoat it with, makes sure its something really really hard. Pay more attention to areas around doorhandles. Durapoxy will stick to clean and scuffed oil, and is very hard. Also, Breakthrough, but it doesnt come in semigloss. And dont give it a warranty. Wouldnt hurt to give it an extra coat either.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Sanding the loose stuff back to where it is adhering can be one of the most tedious and frustrating things to deal with IMO - but there is no easy way around it. It’s the classic example of bad prep on the original recoating job causing tons of work down the line. After the sanding and cleaning I would use a primer with good bonding properties then topcoat with a quality acrylic enamel.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

It truly depends on the budget. At a minimum, concern yourself with high traffic areas, around doorknobs, areas that you can see will continue to be problematic. That area behind the dresser, under the bed, in the closet,etc.dont worry too much about em. Peel off what you can in the high traffic areas, sand and fill till it floats into existing. I'd use a 50/50 mix of Crawford's and elmers wood filler to achieve this goal. Then a bonding primer (assuming you don't wanna play with oil) or coverstain(my favorite-cheap, worry free, dries quick and sands easy) and Top coat. There are several good quality "self priming" top coats that will allow you to bypass the priming after a good scuff and clean...personally, I don't trust em. Old dog, new tricks. The couple that I would trust are breakthrough (terrible by brush and roll but great by sprayer), manor hall is also pretty good with a bite both are ppg products. Pro classic (imo) really needs primer and I'd bet bm aura would bite but it's a new product for me so I don't really know. I just like the confidence of primer and there are many to choose from depending on the budget.
Anyway, all that being said, if it's in the budget to strip everything, great. Most folks with this issue will just understand the issue if you educate them and accept it as a maintainance item vs going for a complete strip. If it's in tact, don't touch it. If it's not, fix it. T&M and don't short yourself....its a PITA.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

My paint rep did not recommend Manor hall over oil without primer.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I would second LPC’s recommendation to go T&M on this kind of work. Pretty tough to bid it unless you just decide to sand everything down. And even then...


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I've used peel stop before on window trim, exactly as you described with fantastic results. Those primers are all BONDING primers, so I'm not sure what others have against them in this situation and they are interior/exterior. I just sanded the peeling latex till it did not come off any more, you will take 90% of it off. Then just brush on peel stop, one coat, two coats, whatever till it builds over the top of the peeling latex. Then paint with your choice of enamel.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I've used peel stop before on window trim, exactly as you described with fantastic results. Those primers are all BONDING primers, so I'm not sure what others have against them in this situation and they are interior/exterior. I just sanded the peeling latex till it did not come off any more, you will take 90% of it off. Then just brush on peel stop, one coat, two coats, whatever till it builds over the top of the peeling latex. Then paint with your choice of enamel.


I was wondering about gardz then wondered what the difference was other than peel stop is high build. I'm thinking just about anything will stick so long as it's scuffed well, no? Never tried it so can't recommend it but I would do a test run on some just for the experience. Glue is glue, right? I just like primer cuz it's a sure bet....ive had too many projects go sideways banking on "New and improved technology"....i guess I figure if it ain't broke,don't fix it.

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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Woodco said:


> My paint rep did not recommend Manor hall over oil without primer.


 
I sure wouldn't use ANY latex over oil without a quality bonding primer. I know some say there are latex's out there that will but I am not taking that chance.


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## ThreeSistersPainting (Jan 7, 2017)

I was told years ago that if painting was easy everyone would do it. Unfortunately, like stated above; the correct way would be to remove as much as possible then capsulate or seal the surface to prepare it for a new top coat. It turns into a "wall restoration" project of sorts.

I find that Shellac is a great interior wall sealer, especially going over previous coats of product.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ThreeSistersPainting said:


> I was told years ago that if painting was easy everyone would do it. Unfortunately, like stated above; the correct way would be to remove as much as possible then capsulate or seal the surface to prepare it for a new top coat. It turns into a "wall restoration" project of sorts.
> 
> I find that Shellac is a great interior wall sealer, especially going over previous coats of product.


For some reason, I took the OP’s description of the job as a trim paint problem though it’s never really stated as such. Hope to heck it’s not on all the walls too - *that* would be a fricken’ nightmare.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

If the job couldn't be budgeted for complete removal of the weak top coat (Best Practice), I would apply an oil or shellac primer as an encapsulating agent in the hopes of it penetrating enough through the permeable latex film to bond to the existing oil undercoat.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Personally, I would sand with a fairly low grit and sand it all off. I have done this in the past. Leaving any of that latex on, you can not possibly warranty the work, it will fail, probably sooner rather than later. Tell the owners the options and ask what they want. (Might be worth hiring some no talents for the dog work part)

I just painted a fresh coat of latex over such a mess BUT with HO blessing and full understanding that any rubbing or bumping will rip holes because it really is not attached to the wood. I also told them they really need to have all of the latex removed at some point to do a paint job that will actually be attached to the doors and trims. They had to sign off on the lack of warranty and the reason for it.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Self Priming top coats tend to be a lie, they will prime anything that does not actually need primer. READ FINE PRINT ON SUCH PRODUCTS!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> If the job couldn't be budgeted for complete removal of the weak top coat (Best Practice), I would apply an oil or shellac primer as an encapsulating agent in the hopes of it penetrating enough through the permeable latex film to bond to the existing oil undercoat.


Do you really think it would stick to the oil THROUGH the latex? is there any evidence to support that?

Anyway, theres a difference between self-priming, and having ultra high adhesion. Breakthrough sticks to damn near anything, not because its self priming, because its high adhesion. Durapoxy sticks to oil too, but not old varnishes. DTM sticks to old oil to, correct?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Do you really think it would stick to the oil THROUGH the latex? is there any evidence to support that?
> 
> Anyway, theres a difference between self-priming, and having ultra high adhesion. Breakthrough sticks to damn near anything, not because its self priming, because its high adhesion. Durapoxy sticks to oil too, but not old varnishes. DTM sticks to old oil to, correct?


Typically, latex leaves a more permeable film than oil base. It has something to do with the molecular chain structure. Way out of my league. So given that permeability, I think it's reasonable to suggest that an organic solvent borne material would penetrate the latex film. Would it stick well to the sub film surface? You'd have to perform a pull test to determine that.

Either way, it's a band aid short of removal.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I tested Sherwin Williams Solo over polyurethane. I sanded with 220 and wiped it clean. I was surprised how well it bonded. What ever that is worth to you. 

We have had this conversation over and over here. We are all aware of the pitfalls of painting latex over oil. Many have stated that you must prime. And while I agree this is a best practice, I have successfully painted over oil with latex. 

Proper sanding and cleaning are crucial when skipping the primer step. Some customers just don't want to pay for an additional coat. It's unfortunate. It's the difference between a guarantee or not.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I wallpapered in a house, where they used solo on the trim, and it came off in a lot of places with a wipe of my rag. Granted, I have no ideas what prep, if any, the painter did. 

I've also seen it fail tape tests on drywall.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Well I am in the camp of present it to the owner and let them decide. I have the same problem in one room of one of my rentals but its holding up at the moment. Not sure what the oil is but the top coat is Pro Mar 400 latex semi. Not sure of prep is either, but it is in the process of failing. Honestly I may just prepaint and replace the trim and base no crown in this room. In the same house I painted a bunch of polyurethaned trim and crown with SW Pro Industrial waterbourne urethane alkyd. The only prep I did was clean it with simple green and a green scub pad. It is in a kitchen/dining room. Havent seen it for a few months but the tenants say it's doing ok. My tests indicated excellent adherence after full cure which is 2-3 weeks with PI WBUA.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Encapsulation might work well for exteriors, but it won’t prevent peeling when something scrapes into the trim. In my opinion encapsulation would be a waste of time for a project such as this. Anything short of full removal is a waste of time if the previous layer has a very poor bond. 

Hopefully you can convince the owners to go T&M and do a full strip. If the trim doesn’t have any curved profiles you should be able to power sand just about everything with the right equipment. If you end up going this route I’d recommend getting a Festool RTS400. It’s rectangular head makes it perfect for sanding trim.



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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Typically, latex leaves a more permeable film than oil base. It has something to do with the molecular chain structure. Way out of my league. So given that permeability, I think it's reasonable to suggest that an organic solvent borne material would penetrate the latex film. Would it stick well to the sub film surface? You'd have to perform a pull test to determine that.
> 
> Either way, it's a band aid short of removal.


 
I wonder if Gardz would work?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> I wonder if Gardz would work?


I think it'd be worth a try.


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. First time here and really impressed with the interest and expertise in this community.

Curious how much time you would estimate for sanding off the latex (walls, no trim) - just ballpark - 1970's duplex, 3 beds, 1 bath, kitchen, living room, stairwell, front and back entry, 5 closets; 2 stories, approx. 800 sqft. per floor.

After reading the posts, I'm leaning toward priming with Zinsser BIN (shellac base) or Zinsser Gardz.


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

Edited to remove comment - thought I was replying to a reply, not my own post - newbie learning curve


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

piffchick said:


> Thanks for the replies. First time here and really impressed with the interest and expertise in this community.
> 
> Curious how much time you would estimate for sanding off the latex (walls, no trim) - just ballpark - 1970's duplex, 3 beds, 1 bath, kitchen, living room, stairwell, front and back entry, 5 closets; 2 stories, approx. 800 sqft. per floor.
> 
> After reading the posts, I'm leaning toward priming with Zinsser BIN (shellac base) or Zinsser Gardz.


Even with the most basic of jobs, it can be difficult to give time estimates long distance, there are just too many variable to make any amount nothing more than a guess. It’s even worse with problem scenarios like yours. As has been mentioned (voices of those who has been there ahead of you) bidding it time and material would be how many would do it. Trying to bid a set number could end up biting you big time and you might end up wishing you’d never saw the job. If the customer balks and wants a number, bid it high, and then add some more. If they want it cheap, walk.


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

RH said:


> Even with the most basic of jobs, it can be difficult to give time estimates long distance, there are just too many variable to make any amount nothing more than a guess. It’s even worse with problem scenarios like yours. As has been mentioned (voices of those who has been there ahead of you) bidding it time and material would be how many would do it. Trying to bid a set number could end up biting you big time and you might end up wishing you’d never saw the job. If the customer balks and wants a number, bid it high, and then add some more. If they want it cheap, walk.


I agree - just looking for ballpark to help me organize my schedule.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't understand, are you going to remove all of the latex top coat by sanding?


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

We can't help you with pricing. As has been said, there are too many variables. Your best bet would be to ask your paint rep. If you don't have contact with one, it's easy to get one. Just ask at your local store.
It reallllly sucks that you're trying to get tgat crap off of walls. With that kind of project, I'd do a test wall and treat it somewhat like wallpaper. Peel off what ya can and hose it down with a garden sprayer full of water. You might get lucky(assuming these are smooth walls) and the water may soften the top coat a bit and seep behind breaking more of the bond. Think about a dried out bucket that gets filled with water. If the film is thick enough, it will peel off fairly easily. I dunno, but like I said, I'd try it on a wall. What a sucky job.
To figure out your price all ya gotta do is figure out your hourly wage, and how fast you think you can do it (your production rate). It's dang near impossible to estimate until you get moving on it.to clarify it and get a ball park, sell them 1 small room and see how it goes. I'd throw t&m at it all day long and give em a "best guess" with worst case numbers just to give em an idea of what theyre looking at. Be very clear that its a VERY rough number and you'll know more when you get going on it. You should be able to estimate the prime and repaint portion as those are pretty straight forward.
Good luck with it....what a nightmare!

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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

piffchick said:


> Thanks for the replies. First time here and really impressed with the interest and expertise in this community.
> 
> Curious how much time you would estimate for sanding off the latex (walls, no trim) - just ballpark - 1970's duplex, 3 beds, 1 bath, kitchen, living room, stairwell, front and back entry, 5 closets; 2 stories, approx. 800 sqft. per floor.
> 
> After reading the posts, I'm leaning toward priming with Zinsser BIN (shellac base) or Zinsser Gardz.


If you go with gardz, definitely run a test....personally, I'd make sure everything gets sanded and go straight to coverstain. I just don't trust waterbornes. Especially if you're gonna go through the hell of stripping those walls. I'd take ZERO chance with it. Shellac will work, I just like cs better for something like that as I think it'll be easier to work with and it's cheap...eh, to each their own. And God I hope you're spraying it. If you are, use your sprayer for the water instead of a garden sprayer....ff tip and low pressure.

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## mDUB562 (Jul 31, 2012)

If something was going to work in this situation, I would think it would be Gaurdz, RX-35 or best of all Draw Tite (all similar products but Draw Tite has the highest amount of solids). Oil products do not allow for ionic bonding meaning that you are ONLY relying on the mechanical bonding of the material. I don't think this will happen with shellac or oil based primer. If the Gaurdz option worked it would be due to the cross bonding ability of the product. It will hold itself in place by trying to bond to the vertical surface and itself horizontally unlike other products. Having said that I would probably hope the paint was pretty fresh and try to remove it with my hand and a heat gun. This would probably take much less time than trying to sand.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

When did this turn into walls, and not trim???

Also, Gardz is not a bonding primer, and I've never heard of it being recommended over oil base paint. I would NOT do that without more research or testing.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> When did this turn into walls, and not trim???
> 
> Also, Gardz is not a bonding primer, and I've never heard of it being recommended over oil base paint. I would NOT do that without more research or testing.


Post #23

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> When did this turn into walls, and not trim???
> 
> Also, Gardz is not a bonding primer, and I've never heard of it being recommended over oil base paint. I would NOT do that without more research or testing.


It would actually be going over a latex if the OP didn't want to strip it all off.

I personally wouldn't recommend Gardz for this situation, but at this point, it's painters choice. Like it typically is.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> It would actually be going over a latex if the OP didn't want to strip it all off.
> 
> I personally wouldn't recommend Gardz for this situation, but at this point, it's painters choice. Like it typically is.


But the current latex not having bonded to the oil would continue to be a problem though. It's always been my understanding that complete removal is the only solution. You can put whatever you want on top of it, but unless that's bullet proof a fingernail is still gonna tear it off.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> But the current latex not having bonded to the oil would continue to be a problem though. It's always been my understanding that complete removal is the only solution. You can put whatever you want on top of it, but unless that's bullet proof a fingernail is still gonna tear it off.


Where there was no money in the budget for complete removal, I've encapsulated situations like this with oil based under coaters. It did seem to minimize the ability to undercut and peel. However, I used longer curing oil base primers. 

As mentioned above, the best practice would be to remove the unstable top coat. But when it comes to painting, people are generally more willing to compromise in order to save money.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Im still not grasping why gardz is even being suggested for this... It needs a primer to stick to the exposed oil base after stripping. What is the point of putting gardz on the failing latex? For a bandaid, I would put some really thick single part Epoxy on the latex. It will have a slightly less chance of scratching off with a fingernail... PPG gave me a sample gallon of Pitt-Glaze. Its a single part waterborne precatalized acrylic epoxy. Its SUPER thick. Like honey. If I were to try to encapsulate something like this as a bandaid, I would use something along these lines.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Im still not grasping why gardz is even being suggested for this... It needs a primer to stick to the exposed oil base after stripping. What is the point of putting gardz on the failing latex? For a bandaid, I would put some really thick single part Epoxy on the latex. It will have a slightly less chance of scratching off with a fingernail... PPG gave me a sample gallon of Pitt-Glaze. Its a single part waterborne precatalized acrylic epoxy. Its SUPER thick. Like honey. If I were to try to encapsulate something like this as a bandaid, I would use something along these lines.


I was under the impression that all of the primer recommendations were suggested with the idea that the existing latex top coat would remain. 

In terms of applying a primer to the existing oil base finish once the latex was removed, I would imagine just about any appropriate surface primer would work. Especially given that the surface of that oil base finish would be pretty dull after the stripping.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I was under the impression that all of the primer recommendations were suggested with the idea that the existing latex top coat would remain.


Even so, why gardz?


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

Woodco said:


> When did this turn into walls, and not trim???
> 
> Also, Gardz is not a bonding primer, and I've never heard of it being recommended over oil base paint. I would NOT do that without more research or testing.



It's been walls from the beginning, unfortunately.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Even so, why gardz?


I believe the thinking here is everything's open to suggestions when it comes to applications that don't follow a painting best practice. Especially, when budget constraints are of concern. For example, encapsulating a compromised coating rather than stripping it and beginning with a sound substrate.

In other words, there's a million ways to skin a cat in painting. And frankly, no one's looking.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Remove what reasonably can be removed. Prime with a primer with decent bonding capacity then top coat and move on. It’s a fricken’ paint job, not life and death brain surgery. 
If the customer is worried about the cost, too bad: can’t expect handling a problem situation on a small band aide budget. If they can’t /won’t pay, then respectfully decline the job and move on sooner.


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

I am new member here, but will add my 2 cents. 

Latex over oil is a no-no because latex paints are more permeable than oil paints, and that difference will allow water vapor to get behind the latex but not the oil, and when the vapor tries to get back out, causes the cracking and peeling. Also, different reactions to varying temperatures and humidity levels and several other factors contribute to the latex-over-oil fail, and of course bonding issues to such a smooth surface, which is why its recommended to sand.

The easiest way to test for oil paint is to use denatured alcohol, on a rag or something, and rub the wall. If the paint comes off easily, its latex, if it stays on, its oil. It will literally just melt off if its latex paint. I would suggest investing in some denatured alcohol and rags, and use that to go around and wipe down the walls and remove as much of the latex paint as possible while leaving the old oil paint. You can then go back and sand anywhere thats needed. After that, you can prime and topcoat with your product of choice. Kelly-Moore makes a great water-oil hybrid product that would work great for this type of scenario. Simply use the water oil primer (265) to cover the old oil paint, then topcoat with water oil hybrid paint (1920, 1930, 1980). That line only comes in satin, semi gloss, and gloss sheens, so there is that to consider. 

Hope that helps some.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

KooLayed369 said:


> I am new member here, but will add my 2 cents.
> 
> Latex over oil is a no-no because latex paints are more permeable than oil paints, and that difference will allow water vapor to get behind the latex but not the oil, and when the vapor tries to get back out, causes the cracking and peeling. Also, different reactions to varying temperatures and humidity levels and several other factors contribute to the latex-over-oil fail, and of course bonding issues to such a smooth surface, which is why its recommended to sand.
> 
> ...


Whether you strip the latex top coat with chemicals, solvents, heat, or mechanical sanding, there is still an additional cost associated with that. And, what was supposed to be a simple repaint job, now can't be budgeted for the best practices.

So what primer do you use to go over the latex in order to secure it better?


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

CApainter said:


> Whether you strip the latex top coat with chemicals, solvents, heat, or mechanical sanding, there is still an additional cost associated with that. And, what was supposed to be a simple repaint job, now can't be budgeted for the best practices.
> 
> So what primer do you use to go over the latex in order to secure it better?


That is correct, there will still be an additional cost to remove the peeling paint, I was just providing what might be an easier, cleaner and less labor intense way to remove the majority of what needs to be removed. The additional charge is up to you guys :wink:

As for the primer, were you asking about Kelly-Moore products specifically? If so, I would still recommend the 265 product as it can be applied over both oil and paint with no problem (or the 295 Universal Primer), and then topcoat with latex paint. If not Kelly-Moore specific, any good primer would work as most can be applied over oil paint then top-coated with latex. Such as Zinsser B-I-N, XIM Prime Start, etc.
Once the latex paint has been applied, theres not much you can do to improve the adhesion to the substrate. As Im sure you all know, its all about the prep work.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

KooLayed369 said:


> That is correct, there will still be an additional cost to remove the peeling paint, I was just providing what might be an easier, cleaner and less labor intense way to remove the majority of what needs to be removed. The additional charge is up to you guys :wink:
> 
> As for the primer, were you asking about Kelly-Moore products specifically? If so, I would still recommend the 265 product as it can be applied over both oil and paint with no problem (or the 295 Universal Primer), and then topcoat with latex paint. If not Kelly-Moore specific, any good primer would work as most can be applied over oil paint then top-coated with latex. Such as Zinsser B-I-N, XIM Prime Start, etc.
> Once the latex paint has been applied, theres not much you can do to improve the adhesion to the substrate. As Im sure you all know, its all about the prep work.


Always fun to see DIY's eyes roll when mentioning any type of prep


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

KooLayed369 said:


> That is correct, there will still be an additional cost to remove the peeling paint, I was just providing what might be an easier, cleaner and less labor intense way to remove the majority of what needs to be removed. The additional charge is up to you guys :wink:
> 
> As for the primer, were you asking about Kelly-Moore products specifically? If so, I would still recommend the 265 product as it can be applied over both oil and paint with no problem (or the 295 Universal Primer), and then topcoat with latex paint. If not Kelly-Moore specific, any good primer would work as most can be applied over oil paint then top-coated with latex. Such as Zinsser B-I-N, XIM Prime Start, etc.
> Once the latex paint has been applied, theres not much you can do to improve the adhesion to the substrate. As Im sure you all know, its all about the prep work.


 
That last thing you would ever see me doing, unless I screwed up a coating application, is washing latex off walls with alcohol. And if it ever came to that, I would use MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone). That would cut the job at least in half.

But as far as encapsulating this wreck of a situation, (because the homeowner doesn't want to pay me for stripping the latex coating, while bombing the whole environment) I would definitely consider the KM 265 Alkyd as an encapsulating primer.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Did the OP every confirm whether this is just trim..or walls too? If it's just trim, I would just pull off the casings and install new ones. Or new doors for that matter. Probably be cheaper. A qick orbital sand on the door box.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

You all sure like to put way too much effort into trying to get the paints you use to stick to oil based paint when there are paints in the market that will adhere excellently to gloss alkyd without anything more than a good cleaning. No sanding, and they adhere better than any bonding primer on the market. Too bad you can't buy paint anywhere other than SW. But hey, labor is cheap right?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> You all sure like to put way too much effort into trying to get the paints you use to stick to oil based paint when there are paints in the market that will adhere excellently to gloss alkyd without anything more than a good cleaning. No sanding, and they adhere better than any bonding primer on the market. Too bad you can't buy paint anywhere other than SW. But hey, labor is cheap right?


I don't know who "you all" include, but I'm definitely not have problems with latex, or acrylics over oil base.

OK, on my way to work to order some Promar 200....


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't know who "you all" include, but I'm definitely not have problems with latex, or acrylics over oil base.
> 
> OK, on my way to work to order some Promar 200....


"You all" that use promar 200 on oil based trim! Who else?:devil3:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

chrisn said:


> I wonder if Gardz would work?


I'm surprised Fructose, uh I mean Futtyos hasn't replied to this thread? As soon Guardz was mentioned as he seems to have some kind of Guardz radar!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> "You all" that use promar 200 on oil based trim! Who else?:devil3:


Thanks to you, I switched my order to BM! You saved a life today. Or at least any further beratement from PT members.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Thanks to you, I switched my order to BM! You saved a life today. Or at least any further beratement from PT members.


Superspec? Lol!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Superspec? Lol!


Regal Pearl. It's my go to interior paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I think maybe my comment on Promar 200 might me taken out of context, and i want to be clear on what i am saying before someone pops a vein. It is fine over oil based if you can make money doing prep work. Do you make money doing prep work instead of paying for a product that doesn't need any prep work? Just wondering. I'm sure you CAN put the prep work into your bid. But wouldn't it be better to bid it with the prep work and just have to clean it and paint it? How much per gallon would that be worth to you?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Regal Pearl. It's my go to interior paint.


Sure it is......:biggrin: You're the one that likes being in the closet! PROMAR USER! (you've been OUTED!)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Sure it is......:biggrin:


It definitely is. I was only going with the Promar 200 because it was in the original finish schedule of an area I'm painting. But just looking at all the marring and dings, I thought I'd better go with the Pearl.

These days, it's so easy to cross reference colors.


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Did the OP every confirm whether this is just trim..or walls too?


Yes it's walls, not trim


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz over vandalized walls?*

Here is the link for Gardz' TDS: https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...DZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx\

Here is a pertinent exerpt from the TDS: SURFACE PREPARATION
Surfaces should be clean, dry, sound and free of dust, dirt,
grime, grease, oil, wax, mildew, wallpaper adhesive, or
any contamination that may interfere with adhesion. If
unsure of cleanliness, always wash surface with
household ammonia and water solution, appropriate
cleaning solution or solvent (do not use TSP as a cleaner).
Remove any peeling and/or unsound coatings. Sand any
remaining paint film edges smooth. Countersink exposed
nail heads, spot prime and fill all nail holes and gouges
with Ready-Patch®
spackling compound or equally
suitable material. 

The OP did not say what sheen of oil was on the walls. If it was anything shinier than flat and there was no sanding or appropriate priming before applying a latex topcoat, I would be telling the HOs that the walls had literally been vandalized, except even worse than with spray cans of enamel paint.

If this was painting over a cheap builders flat, I would say that Gardz would be ideal as it can soak through cheap latex paint and primer as it is recommended for porous surfaces. Gardz will soak through and bond the cheap paint or primer down so that when you start rolling paint onto the surface, the old paint does not start pulling off onto the roller as the water in the new paint melts the old paint. This can be great fun if you have never experienced it for yourself!

Since the latex paint is peeling off of the oil, I am assuming that the sheen level of the oil is eggshell or higher as I don't think latex paint would easily peel off a flat oil surface, but I could be wrong.

Gardz might soak through the latex topcoat, but will it adhere to the oil underneath? I don't think Gardz was designed to adhere to glossy surfaces. That being said, I wonder what a tape test of Gardz over semi-gloss oil would show.

I would be curious as to how well the latex sands. If it does not pill up and clog the orbital sander I normally use, I might try sanding the walls thoroughly, taking care to get down to the oil-based paint to a certain degree, then apply a coat of Gardz (as the wall would have been sanded enough to make enough of it porous for the Gardz to soak through), let dry thoroughly, maybe do a tape test on the Gardz, then top coat, then do a tape test on the final product. This would be done on one wall or one small room to start with. If it works, then I might have some idea of how long the rest of the walls would take, that is, unless I did not take care to time myself on doing that one wall or room.

If the latex pills up when being sanded, I am not sure that anything other than complete removal of the latex would work. As I said, latex over a high sheen oil that was not sanded or primed properly is basically just vandalism to property. I did a lot of paint and prep work on a realtor's parents' house to help get it ready for sale a couple of years ago. Built in the early 1960's in the Chicago suburbs, it had those birch veneered doors that were varnished. A few years prior to my working there, a friend of the family volunteered to paint the interior for a nominal fee. Before the realtor could see what was going on and stop her, she had painted all the doors with white semi-gloss latex without any sanding or priming, which I only discovered by lightly bumping into one and removing some of the paint, very easily I might add.

Without actually being at the piffchick's job, it is difficult to say what would work best. I have a feeling that there is no simple solution.

Fructtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

1. I think we all agree that the best practice would be to remove the compromised latex top coat by some means.

2. I think we all agree that the above task would not be performed if it wasn't matched by compensation.

3. I think that we all agree that if the latex had to remain in this painting project,( because of budget constraints for example) that an encapsulating/penetrating primer of some sort would be recommended prior to applying another coat of latex. (Oil finish is impractical, but not impossible).

4. I think we all agree that if the budget had room for removal of the latex top coat, that an appropriate primer designed for previously painted oil base paint and bare surfaces, would be desirable. 

5. I think most of us would agree that if the drywall (assuming that's what it is) is not damaged during the latex removal, that an appropriate primer designed for previously painted walls would be sufficient.

6. I think we would all agree, that if the drywall was damaged during removal of the latex top coat, Gardz would be at least an appropriate spot primer, if not a full wall treatment.

7. I think we would all agree, this job could have been completed by the time we reached post #20 of this thread.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*My ex-business partner used to say........*



CApainter said:


> 1. I think we all agree that the best practice would be to remove the compromised latex top coat by some means.
> 
> 2. I think we all agree that the above task would not be performed if it wasn't matched by compensation.
> 
> ...


CApainter, there is a lot of wisdom in your several points, but if I were to interpret your last point according to what my ex-business partner occasionally said, then trouble might be on the horizon.

What did he say? He sometimes would say "Let's go get something done, even if it's wrong."

Sucrose


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Now, you've changed your name to an artificial sweetener?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> CApainter, there is a lot of wisdom in your several points, but if I were to interpret your last point according to what my ex-business partner occasionally said, then trouble might be on the horizon.
> 
> What did he say? He sometimes would say "Let's go get something done, even if it's wrong."
> 
> Sucrose


"a good plan, violently executed right now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." George S. Patton Jr.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Brushman4 said:


> Now, you've changed your name to an artificial sweetener?


Sucrose is just plain old table sugar.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> "a good plan, violently executed right now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." George S. Patton Jr.


Are you really my old partner Phil?

lactose


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> Are you really my old partner Phil?
> 
> lactose


That's funny right there! Ha!


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

CApainter said:


> 1. I think we all agree that the best practice would be to remove the compromised latex top coat by some means.
> 
> 2. I think we all agree that the above task would not be performed if it wasn't matched by compensation...


OP here. Well said. Job starts in a few weeks. I'll be removing just the loose latex, where it's already peeling, and if it's not disengaging from the walls I'll leave it alone. I'll do at least one coat of oil based primer, probably zinsser, and due to my limited paint options (rural Alberta), something in the BM line to topcoat. 

As for pricing, I've given an estimate of hours with paint etc at cost. No warranty. Thanks everyone for your input!!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

piffchick said:


> OP here. Well said. Job starts in a few weeks. I'll be removing just the loose latex, where it's already peeling, and if it's not disengaging from the walls I'll leave it alone. I'll do at least one coat of oil based primer, probably zinsser, and due to my limited paint options (rural Alberta), something in the BM line to topcoat.
> 
> As for pricing, I've given an estimate of hours with paint etc at cost. No warranty. Thanks everyone for your input!!


BM has a few quality oil primers too BTW.


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## piffchick (Jan 6, 2018)

*Update on latex over oil*

So that's done. I peeled the latex off wherever it was starting to peel; lots came off in big sheets like wall paper. So sad. Then I scraped til nothing else was loose. Areas where the latex was undisturbed I didn't touch. Primed all the walls with Zinsser BIN Schellac based primer, then two coats of BM. Should've skim coated the affected walls but the house will be a rental and the owner thought it looked good enough for now.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Seeing the word “lactose” reminded me of a meme that was around a few years back which showed someone’s foot which was missing a few toes. The caption was something like; If this picture grosses you out - you might be lack toes intolerant

Well *I* thought it was funny.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

piffchick said:


> So that's done. I peeled the latex off wherever it was starting to peel; lots came off in big sheets like wall paper. So sad. Then I scraped til nothing else was loose. Areas where the latex was undisturbed I didn't touch. Primed all the walls with Zinsser BIN Schellac based primer, then two coats of BM. Should've skim coated the affected walls but the house will be a rental and the owner thought it looked good enough for now.


It looks even better from my house!


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## Ccmpainting (Nov 10, 2020)

piffchick said:


> I've been painting commercially for four years and this is my first encounter with latex being applied over oil. It's in a house approx. 1600 sq feet, throughout. Obviously it's peeling and I want to ensure the homeowners don't have further problems with it down the road. I'll be repainting in latex.
> 
> What's the best way to deal with this? I'm thinking peeling and sanding to get as much of the latex off as possible; then priming with maybe Zinsser's Stop Peel Plus?
> 
> Any words of wisdom or recommendations for primer would be appreciated.


 Use Styx! I'm telling you the stuff is amazing. I use to use kilz as a bonding primer and yes the oil one but Styx is latex and is awesome stuff. Do a sample and I assure you in 10 minutes you cant scratch it off with your fingernail.


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