# Entire house is peeling. Why is it peeling? What would you do?



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

I met with a customer earlier today to take a look at exterior painting. Their home is peeling on 80% of the exterior siding and trim. I'm trying to identify the cause for the peeling and was looking for help


Here are the details I can give you:
1. When you peel off the paint a thin layer of substrate comes with the paint.
2. Paint is coming off in very large sheets
3. House is about 25 years old.
4. It looks like there is 2 layers of paint coming off their home. 
5. Paint is not peeling on the soffets or a couple boards down from the soffets.
6. Paint is peeling on all 4 sides including the garage which has no heat source
7. Siding substrate is smooth cedar


I went back to their house today after our initial consult to take pictures and run a moisture test with my SW rep. I don't really trust the moisture meter he brought. It was reading 5% on bare areas and its been raining off and on. It was a ryobi moisture meter, i think they're 50 bucks and they don't have the prongs that go into the wood. Not sure if that's important or not.


My first inclination is the paint is peeling because of the surface not being prepped properly and the siding going way to long without a maintenance coat. Once the peeling started it just got worse and worse. I figured with about 2 weeks of scraping/sanding, cleaning and peel bond we could throw a coat of duration on.

I wanted to run it by you guys first though. If you could answer why you think its peeling and how you'd deal with it I'd greatly appreciate it.

Pictures should be attached to this thread. Let me know if you can't see them for some reason.


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I am surprised you are asking us about this. Are you a professional painter or a handyman ?
Most of us would take it back to a sound surface,powerwash, prime and 2 topcoats. Looks like a straight forward job to me.


----------



## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Other's here may balk, I recommend the prep you out line then *2 coats* 100% acrylic stain not paint...


----------



## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

When was the last time it was painted?

Did you check whether someone had caulked underneath all of the clapboards?


----------



## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Sandblast and use a latex stain...should be good for a few years . Any other alternative and it will be bubbling/peeling before you can go around a corner . That Cedar siding does nothing but bleed here on PEI . We have done everything...I know of no primer that will work over a paint on Cedar for any length of time . I am always open to find out new things without experimenting on a customer's home...so if somebody has had any luck with these...I'm all ears !!! :yes:

Figure out how to stop the Cedar from bleeding...and when you do...call a manufacturer and everybody will get rich .


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Looks like cedar siding to me. Typical cedar siding repaint- it doesn't hold paint well.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

brian - I'm asking because it's peeling on so much of the house. After prep is completed there will be little paint left (in the picture its hard to tell) I was a little worried there may be structural or systemic moisture problems so i wanted to run it by everyone to sort of confirm it's just in need of a good paint job (scaping, sanding, primer, and paint). Last thing I want to do is paint the whole house and have to return next year with peeling paint everywhere.

y.painting - there is no caulk underneath the boards. homeowner just moved in so i don't know the last time it was painted. im guessing over 10 years.

Playdout - you think sandblasting may work? I've never done it, i heard it was bad for cedar wood.


----------



## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Alltimate Painting said:


> brian - I'm asking because it's peeling on so much of the house. After prep is completed there will be little paint left (in the picture its hard to tell) I was a little worried there may be structural or systemic moisture problems so i wanted to run it by everyone to sort of confirm it's just in need of a good paint job (scaping, sanding, primer, and paint). Last thing I want to do is paint the whole house and have to return next year with peeling paint everywhere.
> 
> y.painting - there is no caulk underneath the boards. homeowner just moved in so i don't know the last time it was painted. im guessing over 10 years.
> 
> Playdout - you think sandblasting may work? I've never done it, i heard it was bad for cedar wood.


 lt will pit it very badly...but once the old stuff is removed the latex stain does tend to hold well . It would be pretty darn costly on a home of that size and very labor intensive . As a rule we usually have a lot of problems on the sides that draw a lot of sun . The bubbling can start within an hour....after a repaint over bare cedar or even primed cedar from what I have experienced .

On jobs like this...I tell the homeowner to do his homework and supply the product and find out the application method suggested by the Manufacturer and to get a warranty from them before I start putting it on....and that we are to be paid as soon as it's done ...no matter what happens in a year's time . On these jobs...you gotta your AZZ ~~~:thumbsup:


----------



## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Brian C said:


> I am surprised you are asking us about this. Are you a professional painter or a handyman ?
> Most of us would take it back to a sound surface,powerwash, prime and 2 topcoats. Looks like a straight forward job to me.


 
Why you given this guy a hard time? :confused1:

Sounds like the OP is trying to avoid having the HO waste alot of money by having the same outcome.


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

the labor of two weeks scraping and sanding..you could sandblast. smooth. and prime.

Go get a bid for sandblasting..the other option if the HO is afraid to pit the wood(although ive seen some guys that are good enough that there is almost no damage present with blasting) is to strip it with sanders. 

If its peeling that bad..you may not have had primer the first time around. Even if you scrape that back i bet it will peel again in the next two years. Could be moisture lock as well 

Strip, slow dry oil prime. 2 coats latex solid stain.

I could get a home that size sandblasted for 3k with a guy that is good. Typically blasters wont do the trim just the body.


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Boards were left exposed too long and coated over grayling siding. Check to insure shadow line on the overlap is not full of paint/ stain. Grain orientation looks like flat grain #3 grade. Moisture content at 5% is low for cedar. Should be between 8-10% if properly acclimated. Coating is too thin on the bevel. Failure starts usually on the bevel edge as thats where coating is thinnest. How long did the house go uncoated before coating? #1 grade clear VG cedar is the best. Remove all existing coating down to a bare stable surface to include removal of dead wood fibers. Two coats latex stain or oil base primer and two coats if cedar is tannin rich.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I give people a basic paint job and keep the price low and tell them that they should expect to have to repaint about every five years. I sell people on a powerwasher, a scraping off of the loose and two coats of finish-I like M.A.B. sea shore flat. If a person has it in their head that they want some total restoration- say stripping,oil primer,two coats of finish so on.....I let it go.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Oden - Are you doing that because you figure if total restoration was done it may just peel in the future anyways. I can see going that route if it's going to cost the same for the homewoner 5 years from now regardless of total paint removal or not. Ideally.. i'd like to get the siding down to bare wood and do a complete job but only if the customer can get real value out of it.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

i know it'll peel. My area is loaded with cedar sided houses. I've seen people spend big Ching trying to get a twenty year paint job and a painter sell it to them. They spend all this money,their house is monopolized for all of this time,their expectations are so high- five years later they are MFN that " sheister painter" and their house is wrapped in vinyl. I could paint that house for two grand and be gone in two or three days. Best bang for a buck.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Oops. Just looked back at the pic- revise my bid I- make it thirt five hundred.
Still the best deal.


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Oden said:


> i know it'll peel. My area is loaded with cedar sided houses. I've seen people spend big Ching trying to get a twenty year paint job and a painter sell it to them. They spend all this money,their house is monopolized for all of this time,their expectations are so high- five years later they are MFN that " sheister painter" and their house is wrapped in vinyl. I could paint that house for two grand and be gone in two or three days. Best bang for a buck.


Ive seen guys like you, the house is peeling a year later.

You will never get 20 years out of a paint job on any type of wood siding.

However i could get that house to last 7 years minimum if it was taken down to bare wood and done right. You dont know whats underneath that paint job..scraping it back is great if the rest of the job is sound. when its everywhere on all four sides you have a problem and just painting it isnt fixing anything


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

also wouldnt look like hell because its been scraped down everywhere. not to mention that when it comes down to paint again, it wont need 20% as much prep(unless they let it sit forever).

strip it, wash it and remove any dead wood fibers. let it dry out good. give it 2 weeks..make sure that you have at least 3 days dry weather. ideally 5. before priming

Slow oil prime your clean, dry surface. let dry for 24 hrs

2 coats latex solid stain spray and backbrush

Semi gloss for the trim.

IF you want a painted wood look, you will save in the long run. will look better as well.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

StripandCaulk said:


> the labor of two weeks scraping and sanding..you could sandblast. smooth. and prime.
> 
> Go get a bid for sandblasting..the other option if the HO is afraid to pit the wood(although ive seen some guys that are good enough that there is almost no damage present with blasting) is to strip it with sanders.
> 
> ...


Im going to ask a couple GC's I've worked with to see if they know of a good sand blaster tomorrow and get some prices. I'll have to run it by the homeowner too. Neighbors house's are pretty close so I'm not sure if they're ok with pissin they're neighbors off since they just moved in. Since its smooth cedar I figured I could use the paint shaver followed with sanding but that'll all depend on what the sand blaster says.


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

StripandCaulk said:


> also wouldnt look like hell because its been scraped down everywhere. not to mention that when it comes down to paint again, it wont need 20% as much prep(unless they let it sit forever).
> 
> strip it, wash it and remove any dead wood fibers. let it dry out good. give it 2 weeks..make sure that you have at least 3 days dry weather. ideally 5. before priming
> 
> ...


Strip and caulk!


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Im going to ask a couple GC's I've worked with to see if they know of a good sand blaster tomorrow and get some prices. I'll have to run it by the homeowner too. Neighbors house's are pretty close so I'm not sure if they're ok with pissin they're neighbors off since they just moved in. Since its smooth cedar I figured I could use the paint shaver followed with sanding but that'll all depend on what the sand blaster says.


 
Guy thats good will be in and out in a day..looks like the houses are not right on top of each other in that neighborhood. Should be fine with the pissing off factor.

Make sure you get a good blaster, if you know any other painters in the area that have been there for a while chances are they know one or someone that does. Good luck!

If you stirp with sanders..some of those festools look pretty nice.


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

HQP2005 said:


> Why you given this guy a hard time? :confused1:
> 
> Sounds like the OP is trying to avoid having the HO waste alot of money by having the same outcome.


Matthew, a professional painter would not need to ask how to prep a job like this.
I didn't mean to give the guy a hard time . Sorry.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Brian C said:


> Matthew, a professional painter would not need to ask how to prep a job like this.
> I didn't mean to give the guy a hard time . Sorry.


Or recommend to sand blast the siding. :no:

Pat


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> Or recommend to sand blast the siding. :no:
> 
> Pat


How is sandblasting siding an unprofessional option?


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

StripandCaulk said:


> How is sandblasting siding an unprofessional option?


The siding would be ripped to shreds and would need to be replaced.

Pat


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Brian C said:


> Matthew, a professional painter would not need to ask how to prep a job like this.
> I didn't mean to give the guy a hard time . Sorry.


The question wasn't just how to prep it was also trying to figure out why its peeling. I know there's a lot of potential causes for the paint to peel and I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen again. NACE sort of confirmed what I was already thinking but I'm glad I asked. Not quite sure how doing a little research and asking around makes that un-professional?


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> The siding would be ripped to shreds and would need to be replaced.
> 
> Pat


Not true at all..done right it doesnt tear the siding up. Barely any pitting at all.

Maybe out here on the west coast with all the stucco housing thats a pretty rare concept. Where im from 90% of the houses are wood siding. I had a guy i used for certain projects, he sandblasted on average 120 wood homes a year. Never once was the siding replaced. never once was it torn up


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> The siding would be ripped to shreds and would need to be replaced.
> 
> Pat


Not to worry. When they hand the homeowner the estimate for this restoration he will get an estimate for vinyl. Vinyl will win. If the homeowner has a brain in his head that is.


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Oden said:


> Not to worry. When they hand the homeowner the estimate for this restoration he will get an estimate for vinyl. Vinyl will win. If the homeowner has a brain in his head that is.


you could do that house for a third the cost of vinyl. Not everyone wants vinyl..not everyone wants a cheap paint job like yours that will fail.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

StripandCaulk said:


> Not true at all..done right it doesnt tear the siding up. Barely any pitting at all.
> 
> Maybe out here on the west coast with all the stucco housing thats a pretty rare concept. Where im from 90% of the houses are wood siding. I had a guy i used for certain projects, he sandblasted on average 120 wood homes a year. Never once was the siding replaced. never once was it torn up


Are these guys only using sand as their media?


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Are these guys only using sand as their media?


The guy i used did yes, but there are others that will use the soda blasting method which is sodium bicarbonate used for media

When i say really do your research to find the right guy i mean it..you can reck a house with a pressure washer if you dont know what your doing. You can reallly reallly mess things up with blasting IF its not done right.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Am I missing something? Looks like a normal peeling finish. Paint peels, enough said.


----------



## 1963 Sovereign (Dec 14, 2011)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Are these guys only using sand as their media?


some use walnut shells,corncob.black beauty,coal slag,glass beads


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I think I'm gonna start a siding business.

This painting crap is quite a racket.


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> I think I'm gonna start a siding business.
> 
> This painting crap is quite a racket.


word yo


----------



## Charisb (Jun 9, 2009)

*Sandblasting*

Look into having someone blast w/ crushed glass media instead of sand. Does the same job of removing the paint & getting you down to bare wood again, but is MUCH gentler on the wood (especially soft cedar). The fine grit does a great job. It's a fairly common practice w/ log and timber frame homes that often also have some sort of siding on them, as well. We have a video on our youtube channel showing logs being blasted w/ crushed glass. Take a look if you have a minute:


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Thats pretty cool, i havent seen the crushed glass method. Fairly clean removal though. 

No matter what you use for blasting the wood wont be the same, but it is an effective way to strip. As the video points out, you can also go back and sand to smooth the surface.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

the glass looks like it prepares a great profile for stain or paint. There is a ton of tooth for adhesion.


----------



## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

What about trying one of those deck strippers like Bio wash. I would try it on a small section. Spray it on with a back pack sprayer brush it in, then power wash it off. Then spray on a neutralizer . Light sand then prime and stain as already mentioned.


----------



## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

I'd be curious what time of year it was painted. I've seen houses painted mid winter with regular Moore's exterior product, they always peel.
Either way, if you prep properly, it can be fixed.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

gabe said:


> What about trying one of those deck strippers like Bio wash. I would try it on a small section. Spray it on with a back pack sprayer brush it in, then power wash it off. Then spray on a neutralizer . Light sand then prime and stain as already mentioned.


 
Where is all that crap gonna end up?:blink:


----------



## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

Same place as all the sand blasting, on your tarps.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

gabe said:


> Same place as all the sand blasting, on your tarps.


 
Now THAT I would like to see:whistling2::blink:


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Charisb said:


> Look into having someone blast w/ crushed glass media instead of sand. Does the same job of removing the paint & getting you down to bare wood again, but is MUCH gentler on the wood (especially soft cedar). The fine grit does a great job. It's a fairly common practice w/ log and timber frame homes that often also have some sort of siding on them, as well. We have a video on our youtube channel showing logs being blasted w/ crushed glass. Take a look if you have a minute: How To Sandblast Log Walls - YouTube


Thanks for the video, looks like either media works but it'd be nice to see what happens on smooth cedar. It'd definetly need sanding afterwards. I see videos with blasting media used quite often on log homes. Seems to work well for that surface but i haven't been able to find any videos with it used on cedar siding.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Alltimate Painting said:


> The question wasn't just how to prep it was also trying to figure out why its peeling. I know there's a lot of potential causes for the paint to peel and I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen again. NACE sort of confirmed what I was already thinking but I'm glad I asked. Not quite sure how doing a little research and asking around makes that un-professional?


NACE hit it right on the head. The biggest clue is you said some of the cedar is coming off on the back of the chips. The wood was damaged from uv decay before the siding was ever painted. Only a matter of time before the paint started coming off. Contrary to what many have said, Cedar is a stable and ideal wood for painting. You will have a lot of prep to do though. I would be wary of a paintshaver on cedar. Very easy to gouge. Better to use a 3M CRD on a disk sander. I've never seen a cedar house sandblasted so I can't comment on that. Once cleaned and prepped, don't wait too long before coating. Check with moisture meter, however, UV deterioration can start as soon as 2 weeks on flat surfaces, and 4 weeks on vertical surfaces. 
Also, bid high or T&M!


----------



## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Brian C said:


> Matthew, a professional painter would not need to ask how to prep a job like this.
> I didn't mean to give the guy a hard time . Sorry.





plainpainter said:


> Am I missing something? Looks like a normal peeling finish. Paint peels, enough said.


I dont know if Ive earned the title "Professional" yet, but my thoughts are this; 

There shouldnt be an 80% failure on a house thats 25 years old; unless thats the original coat (OP didnt say). Either something was done wrong or their is a issue with the substrate. 

I would think the "profesional" thing to do is to investigate why there is so much failure and address this before you do your usaul prep, paint and collect the check so the HO isnt dealing with the same issue 5 years from now and calling a different painter to go through the whole cycle again.

I give credit to the OP for taking the extra step of trying to avoid having the same results at the HO's expense.

Isnt this what PT is here for, or is it just to complain about paint prices and argue about which brush is better.


----------

