# frustrating paint



## painter dude (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi, just joined the forum. My frustrating problem today, and really, an ongoing problem lately, is that flat paint is just not performing as I remembered some 25+ years ago. Using flat finish used to be the easiest to work with. Now, not so. I'm dealing with lapping, double build, hatbanning, a sheen to it, ect. Has anyone heard anything about how what these new "Eco friendly" paints are lacking and in the same breath, any preferences on what performs well lately with both interior and exterior flat finish paint brands? I don't know if I can mention any companys here, but I've used quite a few all with similar resultes lately, (including all sheens). Thanks for any advice.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome to the forum!

Mention all the paint brands you want. Doing so may help others give you advice concerning the products you are having issues with.

Also, please consider heading over to "introductions" and telling us a bit more about yourself and your business.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Haven't had any problems recently.

Used Promar zero flat, works great. 

I still like muresco for ceilings. 

I don't use flat on walls, seems dumb but would be tons easier.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Are you boxing your paint?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Sounds like cheap flat, as in really cheap. It happens with deep colors as well. Most of the new paints with waterborne colorants perform better than the old ones.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Sounds like cheap flat, as in really cheap. It happens with deep colors as well. Most of the new paints with waterborne colorants perform better than the old ones.


I'm kind of thinking the same thing. I've been very happy with 99% of the Benjamin Moore products I use. Primarily Regal Select, Ben & Aura. One thing to remember is that todays products will handle a little differently that those around 25 years ago. You may need to adjust how you move the brush a bit.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Are you boxing your paint?


Work are u kidding me? does anyone box exterior paint anymore and if so, where are u buying it, the local hardware store? lol Do I box my exterior paint? a big no! If I have to do that, Let's change brands. I miss u though, Work.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

painter dude said:


> Hi, just joined the forum. My frustrating problem today, and really, an ongoing problem lately, is that flat paint is just not performing as I remembered some 25+ years ago. Using flat finish used to be the easiest to work with. Now, not so. I'm dealing with lapping, double build, hatbanning, a sheen to it, ect. Has anyone heard anything about how what these new "Eco friendly" paints are lacking and in the same breath, any preferences on what performs well lately with both interior and exterior flat finish paint brands? I don't know if I can mention any companys here, but I've used quite a few all with similar resultes lately, (including all sheens). Thanks for any advice.


They are starting to add more sheen to paint now. Harley any dead flat exterior paint anymore, but give it a week and it will be.lol


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

P dude,

as researchhound said, name those brands.

Although I stopped painting a few years back and only hang paper, I do know that performance of finish coats depend on all the variables.

brand and line of paint, depth of color, substrate the coating is being applied to, and even application method.

as they say in the wallcovering biz, "everything depends on everything else"


I am sure if you explain all the variables, you will get a few opinions - - - OK OK, more than a few. :thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Work are u kidding me? does anyone box exterior paint anymore and if so, where are u buying it, the local hardware store? lol Do I box my exterior paint? a big no! If I have to do that, Let's change brands. I miss u though, Work.


I just boxed three fives of BM premium exterior flat today. It only took two minutes, and I'm confident all of them are the same color.

Why wouldn't painters still do this? Is it because tinting has become so accurate?


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I just boxed three fives of BM premium exterior flat today. It only took two minutes, and I'm confident all of them are the same color.
> 
> Why wouldn't painters still do this? Is it because tinting has become so accurate?


If I am spraying ext., I never box before hand, just pour in at about halfway empty and move-on. I always mix up the interiors. Too risky in touch up mode not to.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Work are u kidding me? does anyone box exterior paint anymore and if so, where are u buying it, the local hardware store? lol Do I box my exterior paint? a big no! If I have to do that, Let's change brands. I miss u though, Work.


Good to see you John, hope everything is well for you and yours. :thumbsup:

I must have focused on the interior portion of his message as when I hear flat I disconnect exterior as only the noobs use flat in this area for exterior. Truth be told I pretty much use flat for only ceilings but interior paint regardless of sheen should be boxed unless it is some trim paint. jmo.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

A+HomeWork said:


> If I am spraying ext., I never box before hand, just pour in at about halfway empty and move-on. I always mix up the interiors. Too risky in touch up mode not to.


Yep - the first time you take tinting for granted in interior work it will come back to bite you. I always box my interior paints regardless of how high my confidence is regarding the skills of my suppliers.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Paints have changed more in the past five years then they have in the last fifty!

I understand your frustrations in seeing a sheen in flat paint. I cringe when I look from an angle at a wall and see sheen on certain laps. Color choice has something to do with it, but sometimes the cheaper flats are the best for hiding angular sheen.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

sheen is based on a % of reflextion. what is based as a flat,matte,eggshell, etc... falls into a group. for example flat is anything under 15% at 85 degress. and eggshell is 5-20% at 60 degres. (per devoe,ici) that beening said not all flats are flat. in fact i feel that most of the new low voc paints have a higher level of sheen that the older types. in order to "dull" the shine you need more chemicals aka more voc to do it. i could be wrong thou.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

matt19422 said:


> Paints have changed more in the past five years then they have in the last fifty!
> 
> I understand your frustrations in seeing a sheen in flat paint. I cringe when I look from an angle at a wall and see sheen on certain laps. Color choice has something to do with it, but sometimes the cheaper flats are the best for hiding angular sheen.


color can have a effect on the sheen; however, it would have to be a very dark flat to see a major change. 
some paints tint will not add anymore sheen to the paint ( BM gen-x, and SW's new no voc tint) but in my line of work i have yet to see anyone see a major change in the sheen or the new paints. 
I would ask for the flatest of the flats, and if there is trust in your store then they will give you what you need if not ask for a TDI on the paint. 
again buy where you trust what they are telling you and selling you


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> Good to see you John, hope everything is well for you and yours. :thumbsup:
> 
> I must have focused on the interior portion of his message as when I hear flat I disconnect exterior as only the noobs use flat in this area for exterior. Truth be told I pretty much use flat for only ceilings but interior paint regardless of sheen should be boxed unless it is some trim paint. jmo.


There are a lot of textured stucco buildings in California. Flat seems to hide the trowel patterns better. They can look pretty bad if highlighted with anything other then flat. Also, masonry, IMO, looks more natural with the lowest sheen possible.

After reading this thread, it doesn't seem as critical boxing flat for exterior as it would for interior. However, Sometimes I have to blow through the bulk of exterior walls and come back to areas that may need a little patching attention, and I just want to be certain that the touch up won't show up like a sore thumb due to slight color variation.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

It would be helpful though if the OP would return to name the specific brands/lines he's having issues with. It's somewhat frustrating with these threads where an initial question is asked and then without any additional information a bunch of responses are racked up speculating on what the issue _might_ be.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> There are a lot of textured stucco buildings in California. Flat seems to hide the trowel patterns better. They can look pretty bad if highlighted with anything other then flat. Also, masonry, IMO, looks more natural with the lowest sheen possible.
> 
> After reading this thread, it doesn't seem as critical boxing flat for exterior as it would for interior. However, Sometimes I have to blow through the bulk of exterior walls and come back to areas that may need a little patching attention, and I just want to be certain that the touch up won't show up like a sore thumb due to slight color variation.


Yeah Gabe was explaining that flat is used a lot in his area for all the stucco. Here flat for exterior fades and chalks very fast and looks like ass but stucco is rare here most everything is brick or siding. Except for stores that is.

Like I said though the exterior thing went over my head I read flat and thought interior and for interior walls I box for conformity.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

painter dude said:


> Hi, just joined the forum. My frustrating problem today, and really, an ongoing problem lately, is that flat paint is just not performing as I remembered some 25+ years ago. Using flat finish used to be the easiest to work with. Now, not so. I'm dealing with lapping, double build, hatbanning, a sheen to it, ect. Has anyone heard anything about how what these new "Eco friendly" paints are lacking and in the same breath, any preferences on what performs well lately with both interior and exterior flat finish paint brands? I don't know if I can mention any companys here, but I've used quite a few all with similar resultes lately, (including all sheens). Thanks for any advice.


Well, most painters I see painting, don't paint properly anyway. I see guys roll first, then cut in. I see guys that have no idea what a lap mark is and how to prevent it!

You know, the proper way to do a room is (1) wall at a time - cut the wall in with a brush, then roll horizontally with the ceiling line (1) foot down and floor line (1) foot up, then start at one end rolling vertically and roll to the other side using long roller strokes from the ceiling to the floor, (and back rolling "F's" up the evenness and doesn't give a uniform finish). 

The key to a nice finish is to, apply the paint generously, work quick and DO NOT go back over the paint after it starts to set up!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well, most painters I see painting, don't paint properly anyway. I see guys roll first, then cut in. I see guys that have no idea what a lap mark is and how to prevent it!
> 
> You know, the proper way to do a room is (1) wall at a time - cut the wall in with a brush, then roll horizontally with the ceiling line (1) foot down and floor line (1) foot up, then start at one end rolling vertically and roll to the other side using long roller strokes from the ceiling to the floor, (and back rolling "F's" up the evenness and doesn't give a uniform finish).
> 
> The key to a nice finish is to, apply the paint generously, work quick and DO NOT go back over the paint after it starts to set up!


 
REALLY??? In 30 years I have never seen or heard of such a process.
Unbelievable:blink:


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

chrisn said:


> REALLY??? In 30 years I have never seen or heard of such a process.
> Unbelievable:blink:


 

Its called unbelievable quality!
Cutting in with a brush, then rolling (1) wall at a time, gives you time to start rolling while the brush work is still wet. This helps the two - 'brush and roller' blend rather than overlap.
Rolling ‘horizontally’ as close to the ceiling line helps prevent hat-banding.
There's your lesson for the day!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PhillysFinest said:


> Its called unbelievable quality!
> [*]Cutting in with a brush (1) wall at a time, gives you time to start rolling while the brush work is still wet. This helps the two - 'brush and roller' blend rather than overlap.
> [*]Rolling &#145;horizontally&#146; as close to the ceiling line helps prevent hat-banding.
> There's your lesson for the day!


Was this method learned or self taught? I've never heard it called hat-banding I always call it picture framing, I kind of like hat-banding though.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Was this method learned or self taught? I've never heard it called hat-banding I always call it picture framing, I kind of like hat-banding though.


No, a 60 y/o Union painter taught me that trick, 25 years ago and it works well! The OP called it hat banding, so I was speaking his language. Yes, picture framing is correct!

I am also an innovator!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I remember the last time I did not box paint, cans were from different lots. 

That was back in the mid-70's. never again did I make that mistake.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> Its called unbelievable quality!
> Cutting in with a brush, then rolling (1) wall at a time, gives you time to start rolling while the brush work is still wet. This helps the two - 'brush and roller' blend rather than overlap.
> Rolling ‘horizontally’ as close to the ceiling line helps prevent hat-banding.
> There's your lesson for the day!


Philly, I have a hard time believing that you paint for a living.....


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PhillysFinest said:


> The OP called it hat banding. Yes, picture framing is correct!


Oh I guess I missed that. Do you use that method for both coats or only the second?

I've found that when using good paint picture framing isn't really a problem when boxed and mixed up properly. Ive had certain colors picture frame on me and I then rolled horizontal as you described. It's very very rare and only seems to happen with some ultra deep colors. To do that on every room with every color seems like an overkill.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

matt19422 said:


> Philly, I have a hard time believing that you paint for a living.....


I know how you paint, I have seen every painter under the sun! 

Lets meet up on a job, I will paint one wall and you can paint another, and you will see what I am talking about!

You can put me in the White House and Obama would be pleased!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

What is "boxing paint" and "picture framing"?

This painting stuff is more technical than I thought.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

http://www.ehow.com/how_7592562_prevent-painters-tape-bleeding.html

Here's some more technical techniques for pro painting...

I don't know how our secrets got leaked...


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Oh I guess I missed that. *Do you use that method for both coats or only the second?*
> 
> I've found that when using good paint picture framing isn't really a problem when boxed and mixed up properly. Ive had certain colors picture frame on me and I then rolled *horizontal *as you described. It's very very rare and only seems to happen with some ultra deep colors. To do that on every room with every color seems like an overkill.


More so on the final coat. However, I only do it when I want anal quality. 
If I am looking to get in and out, no, I don't use this method!

Rolling horizontal (@ the ceiling line) also hides 'brush marks' which I hate!


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## painter dude (Aug 15, 2012)

researchhound said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Mention all the paint brands you want. Doing so may help others give you advice concerning the products you are having issues with.
> 
> Also, please consider heading over to "introductions" and telling us a bit more about yourself and your business.


 thanks


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> You can put me in the White House and Obama would be pleased!


Obama? I thought we could not discuss politics here.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Was this method learned or self taught? I've never heard it called hat-banding I always call it picture framing, I kind of like hat-banding though.


The guy that taught me called it hat banding and have since heard it called picture framing, I say hat banding.


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## fastrthan_u (Aug 17, 2012)

Hi, this is my first post. I plan on posting about myself,my company, and my qualifications when I find the introduction page, but I couldn't resist commenting. I think the biggest factor in flat paint having a sheen would be the amount of vinyl used in the manufacturing of the product. The more expensive the paint the more vinyl used in the manufacturing process. That is why the cheaper flats seem to be a more stark flat. If you are looking for a decent quality flat interior paint I would suggest Sherwin Williams Messa. Available in my market in Texas. your rep will be familiar with it.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

fastrthan_u said:


> Hi, this is my first post. I plan on posting about myself,my company, and my qualifications when I find the introduction page, but I couldn't resist commenting. I think the biggest factor in flat paint having a sheen would be the amount of vinyl used in the manufacturing of the product. The more expensive the paint the more vinyl used in the manufacturing process. That is why the cheaper flats seem to be a more stark flat. If you are looking for a decent quality flat interior paint I would suggest Sherwin Williams Messa. Available in my market in Texas. your rep will be familiar with it.


Welcome here is the intro section http://www.painttalk.com/f3/


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

fastrthan_u said:


> I would suggest Sherwin Williams Messa. Available in my market in Texas. your rep will be familiar with it.


Never heard of it. I wonder what paint it crosses over to here. 

In NJ we use Masterhide, PM 400 and Quali Kote which all seem to be real flat and on the lower end of SW's pricing.


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

never heard of messa either.that just bugs me that differant regions have other products. when I was down in st.croix this winter I stopped in to sherwin will to see what products the Island folks use and they had all the same lines as they do in connecticut. wacky

what do you get if you mix flat with satin.....shat


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## fastrthan_u (Aug 17, 2012)

Sherwin Williams states that they manufacture products specific to each region, the upper end exterior products for my region would have mildewcide already in the can because it's a problem here etc. We have an entire line in this region that is probly specific to us called Sherwin Williams Southwest Builders. They are lower end products so I don't use many, but they are available here. I think they even market "test products" through some of these specific lines and if or when they have enough interest in a product they will launch it nationally. And of course raise the price.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> More so on the final coat. However, I only do it when I want anal quality.
> If I am looking to get in and out, no, I don't use this method!
> 
> Rolling horizontal (@ the ceiling line) also hides 'brush marks' which I hate!


 
the worlds best painter would know how to use a brush without leaving brush markes


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

chrisn said:


> the worlds best painter would know how to use a brush without leaving brush markes


Dude, whatever quality you can produce, magnify that 10X and you got me! :thumbsup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> Dude, whatever quality you can produce, magnify that 10X and you got me! :thumbsup:


You can be the best in the world but if still charge the same as the lower end painting service then where does it get you?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> You can be the best in the world but if still charge the same as the lower end painting service then where does it get you?


Its a race to the bottom didn't ya know Sean?


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

chrisn said:


> *the worlds best painter* would know how to use a brush without leaving brush markes


*He does!* However, brush and roller have (2) completely different textures!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PhillysFinest said:


> I know how you paint, I have seen every painter under the sun!
> Lets meet up on a job, I will paint one wall and you can paint another, and you will see what I am talking about!
> You can put me in the White House and Obama would be pleased!





PhillysFinest said:


> Its called unbelievable quality! There's your lesson for the day!





PhillysFinest said:


> Dude, whatever quality you can produce, magnify that 10X and you got me! :thumbsup:





PhillysFinest said:


> I love Home Depot! If you don't like HD, just don't shop there!
> 
> I don't like walking without my shoes on asphalt (on a 90 degree day), due to the fact that it burns my feet - so I don't do it!!! :jester:



I know the last quote is from a different thread but your recent posts in this one brought it to mind! This example just doesn't work Philly!! This could never really happen because it's obvious you only walk on water!!! :jester:!!!!!!!!!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

RH! I! Love! Your! Over! And! Improper! Use! Of! Exclamation! Points!

Only the phinest people do that!!! ;-)


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## painter dude (Aug 15, 2012)

The flat finish is what the GC called for. Lately, since PPG bought out Porter Paints it has been nothing but a pain. Poor product performance, poor color matching and on and on. Time to switch back to SW I guess. Liked Kelly Moore when I lived in Tx. but no KM where I live now and Porter was'nt in Tx. I like BenMoore, a little pricey though, and usually try to steer clinets that way. I've talked with a Valspar chemist and he said that the EPA keeps changing requirements and it's hard to stay up with it, some of which I've heard that the EPA has'nt even tested yet, but I suppose if it looks good on paper, put it in the paint. As long as a sheen falls into a certain % of what whoever considers that to be, that's what it's called. And believe me, if I can't roll,brush or even spray a "flat" finish, and have it look good/great maybe it's time to hang up the brushes (I sometimes wish) ha. Just an overall comment about paints today. Anyway, thanks for the advice.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

painter dude said:


> The flat finish is what the GC called for. Lately, since PPG bought out Porter Paints it has been nothing but a pain. Poor product performance, poor color matching and on and on. Time to switch back to SW I guess. Liked Kelly Moore when I lived in Tx. but no KM where I live now and Porter was'nt in Tx. I like BenMoore, a little pricey though, and usually try to steer clinets that way. I've talked with a Valspar chemist and he said that the EPA keeps changing requirements and it's hard to stay up with it, some of which I've heard that the EPA has'nt even tested yet, but I suppose if it looks good on paper, put it in the paint. As long as a sheen falls into a certain % of what whoever considers that to be, that's what it's called. And believe me, if I can't roll,brush or even spray a "flat" finish, and have it look good/great maybe it's time to hang up the brushes (I sometimes wish) ha. Just an overall comment about paints today. Anyway, thanks for the advice.


Did you take time off from painting and then start up again? 

I'm not that comfortable using paint on big projects that I'm not used to. It's so much easier when you know what to expect. There's enough to worry about on a project besides having to fight with the products being used.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well, most painters I see painting, don't paint properly anyway. I see guys roll first, then cut in. I see guys that have no idea what a lap mark is and how to prevent it!
> 
> You know, the proper way to do a room is (1) wall at a time - cut the wall in with a brush, then roll horizontally with the ceiling line (1) foot down and floor line (1) foot up, then start at one end rolling vertically and roll to the other side using long roller strokes from the ceiling to the floor, (and back rolling "F's" up the evenness and doesn't give a uniform finish).
> 
> The key to a nice finish is to, apply the paint generously, work quick and DO NOT go back over the paint after it starts to set up!


 I usually always cut in first then roll. I was on abig job recently where I had guys rolling first as I was doing all the cutting. It didn't make any difference with masterhide flat. If I do high foyers I will cut in twice while the lader is there and then roll it twice from the floor. I've never had a problem even with satin. I wouldnecer cut and roll one wall at a time. I am either cutting or rolling but never both at once.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

As it would pertain to the original post, hat banding & picture framing can be caused by more than just your technique or paint brand/sheen....

-I do a lot of homes for a retirement community where I come in and do all custom colors over blank builders white for the new homeowner. What I've learned is that when the original spray and back rolling was done(not me), they left heavy stipple on there rolls and so (2) inches from the top and bottom had a difference in texture. It would look like hat banding when you painted and it was clearly because of the difference in stipple and no stipple from the roller. I brought a rep out and he thought himself that it was the paint causing the problem. 

-Long story short after finishing the room, I went back and rolled with a textured 4" roller, sideways across the top and bottom. It diffused the llight by adding stipple and the hat banding was gone.

This solved the problem for that situation.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well, most painters I see painting, don't paint properly anyway...
> ... then start at one end rolling vertically and roll to the other side using long roller strokes from the ceiling to the floor, (and back rolling "F's" up the evenness and doesn't give a uniform finish).
> 
> The key to a nice finish is to, apply the paint generously, work quick and DO NOT go back over the paint after it starts to set up!


So backrolling is a hack process huh? If paint sets up in the first 30 seconds, you either didn't prime the drywall or your using some crap paint.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

They horizontal roll at the top and bottom of a wall is called a 'Dutch'.
Just sayin. We Dutch the ceiling and Dutch the base. It's called a Dutch.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Oden said:


> They horizontal roll at the top and bottom of a wall is called a 'Dutch'.
> Just sayin. We Dutch the ceiling and Dutch the base. It's called a Dutch.


Hey Oden, 30 years ago, I was told by my father and a Union painter, that rolling horizontal - at the ceiling line, is called a Dutchmen. But I didn't wanted to speak a language, that most Jean wearing painters, wouldn't understand.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

<<<<<this guy is like talking to a brick wall, I still cant decide if he is for real or taking us all for a ride , ala andy kaufman...


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Workaholic said:


> You can be the best in the world but if still charge the same as the lower end painting service then where does it get you?


Hey Work, I don't know if you work for a company or own your own company. But do me a favor, please produce documents, stating what your annual income was for the years; 2009, 2010 & 2011! Lets see if you can back up your statement with some digits?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> <<<<<this guy is like talking to a brick wall, I still cant decide if he is for real or taking us all for a ride , ala andy kaufman...


If you believe they put a man on the moon...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> Hey Oden, 30 years ago, I was told by my father and a Union painter, that rolling horizontal - at the ceiling line, is called a Dutchmen. But I didn't wanted to speak a language, that most Jean wearing painters, wouldn't understand.


I might wear jeans (actually khakis) and I might not use a particular vocabulary that would give me a false sense of superiority but I don't have bs problems like the customer taking over my project for me.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> Hey Work, I don't know if you work for a company or own your own company. But do me a favor, please produce documents, stating what your annual income was for the years; 2009, 2010 & 2011! Lets see if you can back up your statement with some digits?


You first.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

matt19422 said:


> Philly, I have a hard time believing that you paint for a living.....


Well Matt, here's my work... Razor sharp detail - how much better can it get?


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> You first.


TJ, I don't claim to be getting rich... Its these other guys claiming to be getting $50 an hour! They must be painting double my speed!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> Hey Work, I don't know if you work for a company or own your own company. But do me a favor, please produce documents, stating what your annual income was for the years; 2009, 2010 & 2011! Lets see if you can back up your statement with some digits?


lol I'll pass on the producing you my tax info. I never have claimed to be the big dog of the forum, nor have I ever claimed to be the best the world has ever seen. 

I am a small outfit I run any where to myself and two other guys throughout the year. 

My comment was based off that you claim to be the sh!t but in comparison you did your paper job cheaper than I would and the sectional painting on the front of the home as well and the NJ cost of living is higher than Bama. 350 a day sounds good but if you consider the operating costs then how much is 350 really? 

So if you are the paint messiah you should up your rates to reflect that, that is all I am saying. 

BTW my back ground is I worked for a company for about five years and then made a three way partner which was pretty lucrative as we were 99% NC at that time and then one partner dropped out about the time the bubble popped then a few years later another and from there I took over the business. I have only about 13 years in the trade and if you research my posts I never claimed to know everything but I do get by.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well Matt, here's my work... Razor sharp detail - how much better can it get?


Nice pics! you convinced me you are the messiah.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well Matt, here's my work... Razor sharp detail - how much better can it get?


First pic, upper corner on grey wall area... is that a dent or optical illusion?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> First pic, upper corner on grey wall area... is that a dent or optical illusion?


Must be mayonnaise on your screen. The Messiah would not leave a dent when he could charge to fix it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Must be mayonnaise on your screen. The Messiah would not leave a dent when he could charge to fix it.


Well, let's sure _hope_ it's mayonnaise. :whistling2:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Well, let's sure _hope_ it's mayonnaise. :whistling2:


lol I was going say something else but did not want to offend and after all this is a family site.

Highlight the area of the pic TJ.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> First pic, upper corner on grey wall area... is that a dent or optical illusion?


It's all smoke and mirrors. :yes:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> It's all smoke and mirrors. :yes:


I don't believe it.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well Matt, here's my work... Razor sharp detail - how much better can it get?


Philly, You could be the best painter in the world for all I care... The picture looks great(excluding that the seam should of been caulked so it looks even)The truth is, that your attitude and conduct on here is horrid. Don't believe me, well then lets take a poll(reality check) below.

Thank this post if Philly rubs you or everyone the wrong way on this forum....

I'm sorry but maybe you need a wake up call on how to communicate with your fellow trades men/women, & most importantly your customers. 

Your a small time painter....Some on here make a living by swinging a brush, some own a painting business, some paint residential homes, some paint showrooms, some paint mansions, some use a gallon a day, some own a paint store, some only do interiors, some only do industrial, some have no employess, some can faux finish things you could never imagine....

Point is: Your only 1 drop in the Painttalk bucket.

Have respect for yourself, your customers, and if there is any left over, have some respect for the people on here who post to try and help each other out in this painting forum!

Enough said.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Workaholic said:


> lol I was going say something else but did not want to offend and after all this is a family site.
> 
> Highlight the area of the pic TJ.



I don't know how, that's pretty technical.

I wouldn't know about stuff on my screen. Not sure what you guys mean.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

matt19422 said:


> Have respect for yourself, your customers, and if there is any left over, have some respect for the people on here who post to try and help each other out in this painting forum!
> 
> Enough said.


Well said Matt!


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

matt19422 said:


> Philly, You could be the best painter in the world for all I care... The picture looks great(excluding that the seam should of been caulked so it looks even)The truth is, that your attitude and conduct on here is horrid. Don't believe me, well then lets take a poll(reality check) below.
> 
> Thank this post if Philly rubs you or everyone the wrong way on this forum....
> 
> ...


Matt, I am a 50 y/o man, stop trying to be my dad! 
Your above post should have been in the form of a PM! 

Thanks!


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Hey Matt, is this you? If so, damn son, you is just a young'n! 

You are close to me. You should pay me to come to your job site and show you my bag of tricks! $250 for the day and I am yours for 8hrs :jester:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh no you didn't!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Philly knows his way around a computer, that's fo sho. I can't do a tenth of what he can do with the buttons!


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Oden said:


> Philly knows his way around a computer, that's fo sho. I can't do a tenth of what he can do with the buttons!


 
unfortunately that might be all he actually knows about:blink:


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PhillysFinest said:


> TJ, I don't claim to be getting rich... Its these other guys claiming to be getting $50 an hour! They must be painting double my speed!


Philly, if you are half as good as you claim to be on this site, then selling your services for $50/hr or more shouldn't be a problem. Think about how easy it would be for you to differenciate yourself from the masses of other painters that sub-out or hire cheap labor to complete their projects. You are always on the job, have superior knowledge, better systems, are clean and fast, etc, ect. $50/hr should be easy streets for you. It's all in the market you are targeting and your sales presentation. You can do it man! Go for it! Don't fight for poll position in a race to the bottom! Shoot for the stars!


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## kingsebi (Jan 27, 2009)

Can't we all just get along. We are in this big painting boat together.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

kingsebi said:


> Can't we all just get along. We are in this big painting boat together.


That's what they said about the Titanic.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

matt19422 said:


> Philly, You could be the best painter in the world for all I care... The picture looks great(excluding that the seam should of been caulked so it looks even)The truth is, that your attitude and conduct on here is horrid. Don't believe me, well then lets take a poll(reality check) below.
> 
> Thank this post if Philly rubs you or everyone the wrong way on this forum....
> 
> ...


I'm gonna give Philly the benefit of the doubt here and assume his, "I'm the greatest...", comments were all made tongue in cheek. I can't believe anyone would actually be writing those things with a straight face. 

On the other hand, _anyone_ wishing to be taken somewhat seriously and wanting to avoid having their all their posts eventually viewed as worthless would be wise to keep the BS factor dialed down, add in an occasional healthy dose of self depreciating humor, and avoid making comments that they wouldn't be willing to make to someone face to face. Oh, and a sincere apology when you do step over a line or screw up is always a classy gesture.

*OW!* (Damn - Just fell off my soapbox! :cursing


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

PhillysFinest said:


> Well, most painters I see painting, don't paint properly anyway. I see guys roll first, then cut in. I see guys that have no idea what a lap mark is and how to prevent it!
> 
> You know, the proper way to do a room is (1) wall at a time - cut the wall in with a brush, then roll horizontally with the ceiling line (1) foot down and floor line (1) foot up, then start at one end rolling vertically and roll to the other side using long roller strokes from the ceiling to the floor, (and back rolling "F's" up the evenness and doesn't give a uniform finish).
> 
> The key to a nice finish is to, apply the paint generously, work quick and DO NOT go back over the paint after it starts to set up!


 
Yea man, you are a problem, not part of the solution. This is the same crap the clerks in the paint stores are telling novice painters. This technique is dead. Please, let it die. After you cut in an entire wall, the cut-ins are already too dry for you to start rolling over the top of them. This is not solving hatbanding or picture framing, it's creating it. This process does not work with acrylic paints....at all! In order for people in this world to start learning how to paint with acrylics, we need to get rid of the advice from people that still think we are painting with the stuff from the 90's. Please get on board...this is a painting forum and all you are doing is helping us progress backwards. Thanks.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Carl said:


> Yea man, you are a problem, not part of the solution. This is the same crap the clerks in the paint stores are telling novice painters. This technique is dead. Please, let it die. After you cut in an entire wall, the cut-ins are already too dry for you to start rolling over the top of them. This is not solving hatbanding or picture framing, it's creating it. This process does not work with acrylic paints....at all! In order for people in this world to start learning how to paint with acrylics, we need to get rid of the advice from people that still think we are painting with the stuff from the 90's. Please get on board...this is a painting forum and all you are doing is helping us progress backwards. Thanks.


 
At last somebody who knows something!
Not putting ALL you guys down but you know what I mean.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Carl said:


> Yea man, you are a problem, not part of the solution. This is the same crap the clerks in the paint stores are telling novice painters. This technique is dead. Please, let it die. *After you cut in an entire wall,* *the cut-ins are already too dry for you to start rolling over the top of them.* This is not solving hatbanding or picture framing, it's creating it. This process does not work with acrylic paints....at all! In order for people in this world to start learning how to paint with acrylics, we need to get rid of the advice from people that still think we are painting with the stuff from the 90's. Please get on board...this is a painting forum and all you are doing is helping us progress backwards. Thanks.


*This depends on the length & width of the wall, how fast you work, the temperature and humidity and the surface you are painting over - Plaster / Drywall with a good primer etc. (anyone that thanked you for your post has a simplistic mid set). Sorry!* 

Carl, you are good at striking down a 32 year ‘master painter’ who has provided close-up samples of his work.

Instead of critiquing someone else’s Pro advice that works well for them, PLEASE SIR, OFFER YOUR SOLUTION TO THIS TOPIC! 

I have not seen any valid solutions to this problem from anyone! That includes: Carl, Matt, Chrisn, Paradigmzz, etc…

Come on guys, lets here your advice for this topic?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

painter dude said:


> Hi, just joined the forum. My frustrating problem today, and really, an ongoing problem lately, is that flat paint is just not performing as I remembered some 25+ years ago. Using flat finish used to be the easiest to work with. Now, not so. I'm dealing with lapping, double build, hatbanning, a sheen to it, ect. Has anyone heard anything about how what these new "Eco friendly" paints are lacking and in the same breath, any preferences on what performs well lately with both interior and exterior flat finish paint brands? I don't know if I can mention any companys here, but I've used quite a few all with similar resultes lately, (including all sheens). Thanks for any advice.


A lot of the flat paints got a sheen to em nowadays. You need to find a dead flat. My guess is it will wind up being one of the cheaper grades. Can't help you with the brand cause the jobs I do are specs for certain paints usually higher end. Do that search for 'flattest flat' or something like that. There's a lot of guys using a lot of different products and posting their opinions of em on here. I remember one on the subject not too long ago.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I think the issues the OP was bringing up had basically little to do with technique and more with his unfamiliarity with the characteristics of today's "flats". I'm not a slave to any specific cutting in and rolling process. I use quality ceiling and wall paints, almost always do two coats, and have no issues of any kind, regardless of the sheen.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

PhillysFinest said:


> *This depends on the length & width of the wall, how fast you work, the temperature and humidity and the surface you are painting over - Plaster / Drywall with a good primer etc. (anyone that thanked you for your post has a simplistic mid set). Sorry!*
> 
> Carl, you are good at striking down a 32 year ‘master painter’ who has provided close-up samples of his work.
> 
> ...


It's hard to respond constructively because I think you are a troll.

You have not provided a solution either, as I said.


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

Carl said:


> *It's hard to respond constructively because I think you are a troll.*
> 
> You have not provided a solution either, as I said.


Carl, I did not ask for the advice or start this thread. Your solution should be directed towards the original post.

I don’t have these problems with my final product - ever! 

You seem to be drawing a BLANK with your own solution, so why criticize what works for me?

So as soon as someone challenges your argument, they are a troll?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> I'm gonna give Philly the benefit of the doubt here and assume his, "I'm the greatest...", comments were all made tongue in cheek. I can't believe anyone would actually be writing those things with a straight face.
> 
> On the other hand, _anyone_ wishing to be taken somewhat seriously and wanting to avoid having their all their posts eventually viewed as worthless would be wise to keep the BS factor dialed down, add in an occasional healthy dose of self depreciating humor, and avoid making comments that they wouldn't be willing to make to someone face to face. Oh, and a sincere apology when you do step over a line or screw up is always a classy gesture.
> 
> *OW!* (Damn - Just fell off my soapbox! :cursing


Dan you remind of the moderator I was a few years ago. :thumbsup::notworthy:


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Dan you remind of the moderator I was a few years ago. :thumbsup::notworthy:


I remember that guy. Whatever happened to him?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Dan you remind of the moderator I was a few years ago. :thumbsup::notworthy:


Thanks Sean... that means a lot coming from you.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I remember that guy. Whatever happened to him?


Yeah - who's this guy we're stuck with now? :whistling2:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I remember that guy. Whatever happened to him?


He was a burn out.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Yeah - who's this guy we're stuck with now? :whistling2:


I guy that nobody likes on FB.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I guy that nobody likes on FB.


So you finally joined FB?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> So you finally joined FB?


lmao I have had a personal FB for awhile but every body seems to post quips or their daily routine.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> but every body seems to post quips or their daily routine.


Dude. What the heck do you think goes on here half the time? :whistling2:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Dude. What the heck do you think goes on here half the time? :whistling2:


I thought it was going to be about work, school and the five (I included myself) birthdays a year, since that is all I got going on.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

And games. Don't forget the awesome game requests.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> And games. Don't forget the awesome game requests.


I blocked all those. I get on FB about once a month, it is a good way to catch up on friends that I have known for 20+ years but I just don't see the advantages of the business end, maybe it a lack of effort on my part.


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## regalpaints (Jul 14, 2012)

I understand your issues in seeing a shine in sleek color. I flinch when I look from an place at a surfaces and see shine on certain temperature. Colour choice has something to do with it, but sometimes the less costly flats are the best for covering angular shine.
___________
Floor Paint


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> *This depends on the length & width of the wall, how fast you work, the temperature and humidity and the surface you are painting over - Plaster / Drywall with a good primer etc. (anyone that thanked you for your post has a simplistic mid set). Sorry!*
> 
> Carl, you are good at striking down a 32 year ‘master painter’ who has provided close-up samples of his work.
> 
> ...


 

This is pushing the rules of this site
Moderators???:ban:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PhillysFinest said:


> Carl, I did not ask for the advice or start this thread. Your solution should be directed towards the original post.
> 
> I don’t have these problems with my final product - ever!
> 
> ...


 
:ban:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

researchhound said:


> I'm gonna give Philly the benefit of the doubt here and assume his, "I'm the greatest...", comments were all made tongue in cheek. I can't believe anyone would actually be writing those things with a straight face.
> 
> On the other hand, _anyone_ wishing to be taken somewhat seriously and wanting to avoid having their all their posts eventually viewed as worthless would be wise to keep the BS factor dialed down, add in an occasional healthy dose of self depreciating humor, and avoid making comments that they wouldn't be willing to make to someone face to face. Oh, and a sincere apology when you do step over a line or screw up is always a classy gesture.
> 
> *OW!* (Damn - Just fell off my soapbox! :cursing


don't forget the excessive use of the !, whats that all about?:blink:


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