# BM 508 Ultra Flat Beat me up.



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

I just finished rolling the largest ceiling of my life with BM 508 Ultra Flat. The ceiling was 40'x40', bare sheetrock, 2 coats of the 508. Temps were around 85 degrees with high humidity.

My first problem occurred while rolling the first coat on bare sheetrock. Halfway through the ceiling I noticed the paint pulling off the joint compound and leaving pinholes that continued to grow as I backrolled. There was not a spec of dust on the ceiling. 

Then I noticed the 1/2" white dove roller cover was completely matted and felt like Elmer's glue. Switched to a 3/8" white dove and finished the ceiling no problem.

Went home and washed both roller covers with soap and water, spun em - they were completely useless. They were still sticky and matted so I tossed them.

So I went with a brand new 3/8" white dove for the second coat. Everything started out OK, but halfway through the the ceiling the roller was again completely matted. It took forever to roll out the final half of the ceiling. I was only able to roll out around 5 feet at a time. The roller was leaving assorted textures that I really had to fuss with.

When it was all said and done the ceiling looked good, at least it seemed that way when I left. 

I can't remember feeling so beat up after what I thought was a straight-forward job.

So what did I do wrong or is this the nature of the 508 Ultra Flat beast. I used to be able to roll ceilings all day with a 1/2" inch roller head, wash it, then roll again the next day. I've never had such a problem rolling out ceiling paint.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

pics


----------



## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Stop using Purdy products and expecting good results. I use 508 all the time with Wooster covers and have never had a problem. And you should also be using a 5/8 or 3/4 nap that is a 14" or 18" cover. 1/2 and 3/8 are to short to hold enough paint to tackle a surface that large. Also, that ceiling probably should have been sprayed and bankrolled.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Lambrecht said:


> Stop using Purdy products and expecting good results. I use 508 all the time with Wooster covers and have never had a problem. And you should also be using a 5/8 or 3/4 nap that is a 14" or 18" cover. 1/2 and 3/8 are to short to hold enough paint to tackle a surface that large. Also, that ceiling probably should have been sprayed and bankrolled.


Used to love Purdy and the white Dove covers but I have been very disappointed lately. Always liked Wooster. Have you been able to successfully wash a cover after using the 508 or do you just toss.

Thanks for the reply, I was thinking that it might just be the Purdy covers. If that is the case then I'm done with Purdy. 
I mean come on... it was just a flat ceiling paint!


----------



## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

No primer? Hmmmm
18 inch for sure 9/16 soak that thing.


----------



## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Toss all roller covers after using them. Life is to short wasting time cleaning a cover that won't perform the way it does when new.


----------



## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

Lambrecht said:


> Toss all roller covers after using them. Life is to short wasting time cleaning a cover that won't perform the way it does when new.


that, and I had a brush that I typically used muresco, when I went to the 508 with it, the bristles stuck together, even after brush cleaner.

my store told me to use dedicated brushes for both. Not sure what the problem was, but haven't had one since. Washing roller covers, well thats a seperate job in itself, one that I never do.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

GR8painter said:


> that, and I had a brush that I typically used muresco, when I went to the 508 with it, the bristles stuck together, even after brush cleaner.
> 
> That is what I found. The 508 was real sticky and eventually caused the roller cover to mat.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

GR8painter said:


> that, and I had a brush that I typically used muresco, when I went to the 508 with it, the bristles stuck together, even after brush cleaner.
> 
> my store told me to use dedicated brushes for both. Not sure what the problem was, but haven't had one since. Washing roller covers, well thats a seperate job in itself, one that I never do.


So are you saying you may have had a bad batch of 508? Since then it has performed differently and not gummed up your brushes and rollers?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> GR8painter said:
> 
> 
> > that, and I had a brush that I typically used muresco, when I went to the 508 with it, the bristles stuck together, even after brush cleaner.
> ...


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Clearlycut said:


> No primer? Hmmmm
> 18 inch for sure 9/16 soak that thing.


I prime almost everything but never under 2 coats of flat ceiling white.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Why didn't you opt for spraying?


----------



## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> So are you saying you may have had a bad batch of 508? Since then it has performed differently and not gummed up your brushes and rollers?


no, I'm saying I use a separate brush for each, and never wash and re use covers.


----------



## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Hi Lakesidex,

Like others have said, you've gotta go 3/4" on the sleeve. I use the Corona or a lambswool. You are scrubbing it out with the corn cob. 
I am an 'ol school roller washer outter too..lol (most of the time within reason)....(that's a whole other thread that has been discussed to exhaustion).
I have absolutely noticed the same problem with the 508. I wash the sleeve, even soak it overnight clean and spin it in the morning to resume play and it is matted and yes, even a little sticky. I don't remember this happening as much when the product first came out, but I can't be sure.
The product is kind of "dead". It takes some energy to roll out a larger ceiling. It does seem many things that used to be easy in this business have become more difficult. It's not my favorite, but the flat finish is a plus sometimes and can help you.
For as long as I can remember all of our residential ceilings were Regal Flat(White or Decorators White). It was easy and a sure thing. Then the flat wasn't so flat anymore....so we've been using more of the 508 and yes it's harder and it takes more paint....and screws up the sleeves.


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Lambrecht said:


> Stop using Purdy products and expecting good results. I use 508 all the time with Wooster covers and have never had a problem. And you should also be using a 5/8 or 3/4 nap that is a 14" or 18" cover. 1/2 and 3/8 are to short to hold enough paint to tackle a surface that large. Also, that ceiling probably should have been sprayed and bankrolled.



I used only White Dove 9" 3/8" for a long time and I would almost always get bad results--very distinct dark and light lines on the walls. I always just thought that I needed to learn how to roll better. Then I tired a Wooster 12inch Pro Doo Z. Assume results! If I have to use a 9 inch, I now use Arrow Worthy Microfiber. Not as nice as the Wooster, but my paint store does not carry them in 9 inch. Never touch the Prudys anymore.


----------



## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

Try Wooster 14" cage, walls and ceiling. The PERFECT size. Small enough to maneuver around doors windows, wont wear you out on ceilings, big enough to crush any room size, def less laps.


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

GR8painter said:


> Try Wooster 14" cage, walls and ceiling. The PERFECT size. Small enough to maneuver around doors windows, wont wear you out on ceilings, big enough to crush any room size, def less laps.


I use its expanable one. Goes from a 9" to 18".


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

CliffK said:


> Hi Lakesidex,
> 
> 
> For as long as I can remember all of our residential ceilings were Regal Flat(White or Decorators White). It was easy and a sure thing. Then the flat wasn't so flat anymore....so we've been using more of the 508 and yes it's harder and it takes more paint....and screws up the sleeves.


"Corn Cobb" is a good description of what I felt I was using as a cover. 

Again, started with the 1/2" White Dove and that didn't really work out for me. Called a reputable BM dealer and they said it was the 1/2" that was the problem and I needed 3/8" Funny I've been using 1/2" covers for 30 years with no problems.

Regal Flat Decorators White was my goto ceiling paint for years. Loved rolling that stuff. Sure do miss it. 

I rolled for about 5 hours straight on that ceiling thinking it would be an interesting endeavor. Ha!

Spread rate on the 508 says 400-450 just like the Muresco... Nothing like real-world experience! Thank you very much for the insight.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

journeymanPainter said:


> Why didn't you opt for spraying?


I'm strictly a brush and roll guy with no real experience with an 18" roller.... except for about 90 gallons of oily aluminum crap that I rolled on a flat roof one time with a buddy. I'm still trying to forget that.

I figured take it in sections with the Ultra Flat and it would would be no big deal and I would learn a thing or 2.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> I used only White Dove 9" 3/8" for a long time and I would almost always get bad results--very distinct dark and light lines on the walls. I always just thought that I needed to learn how to roll better. Then I tired a Wooster 12inch Pro Doo Z. Assume results! If I have to use a 9 inch, I now use Arrow Worthy Microfiber. Not as nice as the Wooster, but my paint store does not carry them in 9 inch. Never touch the Prudys anymore.


Thanks very much. I pride myself on doing quality work. This is some hard earned knowledge that will help in the future.


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Some observations:

(1) I have read pretty much nothing but rave reviews regarding BM 508 ceiling paint. I have never used it, but now I have doubts about what I've read.

(2) I have never had any problems using Purdy White Doves. No shedding, and I've not had the "lines" others mention they get when using them. I think that issue is one of the amount of pressure put on the roller.

(3) I think many ceilings can be sprayed without the need for backrolling. Spray one coat one direction (the direction least susceptible to "lighting" issues. Spray the second coat in a cross-hatch pattern (90 degrees from the first coat). You can always backroll if you think it prudent. 

(4) Spraying is faster, period.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

GR8painter said:


> Try Wooster 14" cage, walls and ceiling. The PERFECT size. Small enough to maneuver around doors windows, wont wear you out on ceilings, big enough to crush any room size, def less laps.


Also, I wasn't thrilled with the Purdy roller frame I just bought. Had the last one for years. This one rattles and wobbles like crazy.

So is it the Wooster Sherlock roller frames that you're recommending?

If so, I will pick up a couple different sizes tomorrow.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I sorry but rolling a 40'x40' ceiling with a 9" roller sound insane to me, especially on a hot summer day. Using an 18" doesn't take any special skill, it just gets the job done twice as fast, with half the laps. 

I've been using 508 since it came out and have never had a problem. In fact, it is one of my most beloved products. That being said, I have never tried to roll it directly over bare drywall. We always prime first.


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

If someone else does not say it, im going to have to.

I shouldn't have to...but I will. I'm just hoping someone else will first.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

epretot said:


> If someone else does not say it, im going to have to.
> 
> I shouldn't have to...but I will. I'm just hoping someone else will first.


Bring it on... I can handle it.


----------



## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Lakesidex said:


> .
> Nothing like real-world experience! Thank you very much for the insight.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Are you guys not using microfibers? I love the things. 14" Wooster Microplush is the ticket. I also like the 14" 50/50 polyester/lambs wool covers for ceilings. They hold a ton of paint. 9" or 18" Purdy microfibers are sweet too.


----------



## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> Are you guys not using microfibers? I love the things. 14" Wooster Microplush is the ticket. I also like the 14" 50/50 polyester/lambs wool covers for ceilings. They hold a ton of paint. 9" or 18" Purdy microfibers are sweet too.



I'm with you I use microfiber al thet ime.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

9 /16 microfiber at 18" You were going back into mud joints after the paint had dried to much.


----------



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Lakesidex said:


> Also, I wasn't thrilled with the Purdy roller frame I just bought. Had the last one for years. This one rattles and wobbles like crazy.
> 
> So is it the Wooster Sherlock roller frames that you're recommending?
> 
> If so, I will pick up a couple different sizes tomorrow.


I think the sherlocks are the ones that are expanable. They are a bit pricey, but I think they provide more even pressure. The only issue I have with them is they can be a bit of a pain to adjust the size and you have to make sure you do not loosen the wing nuts too much or else they will go missing.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

A few things:

-Doesn't seem like you considered priming it. If you were only spraying, you probably could've gotten away with just spraying 2 coats of 508, but this job would've been much easier had you used 046 Primer, (Fresh Start), followed by even 1 coat of 508.

-For me, I know I could've run plastic down all of the walls and sprayed a 1600 sq ft ceiling much faster than rolling twice, but maybe that's just me.

-The paint pulling back off the ceiling was either due to dust or paint tacking up. Since you said that the ceiling was dust-free, it makes sense that rolling that big ceiling was problematic in keeping a wet edge, so you were likely rolling back into partially tacked paint.

-The most obvious observation has already been mentioned, and that's to use a big-boy roller when rolling big-boy areas.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

14" frame at minimum for a job like that, and microfiber covers work better than non microfiber covers, especially with "newer" paints.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> I just finished rolling the largest ceiling of my life with BM 508 Ultra Flat. The ceiling was 40'x40', bare sheetrock, 2 coats of the 508. Temps were around 85 degrees with high humidity.
> 
> My first problem occurred while rolling the first coat on bare sheetrock. Halfway through the ceiling I noticed the paint pulling off the joint compound and leaving pinholes that continued to grow *as I backrolled*. There was not a spec of dust on the ceiling.


There's your problem. It's not the paint, the roller or the fact that you didn't prime. What caused this is due to you backrolling on an 85 degree day. *The paint was starting to set up when you were backrolling. *Your roller was pulling up paint that was drying, it's that simple. So it short, it is most likely your technique.


----------



## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

Your probably right on that, or perhaps it was something else, but has anyone else had problems using the same brush for muresco and then the 508, switching back and forth?


----------



## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

I just gotta say. About 5 hours to spray that ceiling. 2 hours prime. 2 hours on the paint.
30min to eat my lunch and 30min to think about how glad I am that I spray my ceilings.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> A few things:
> -The paint pulling back off the ceiling was either due to dust or paint tacking up. Since you said that the ceiling was dust-free, it makes sense that rolling that big ceiling was problematic in keeping a wet edge, so you were likely rolling back into partially tacked paint.


I think you're mostly right with the paint tacking up. But I was having the problem right were I was applying the new paint. Dip, start spreading the paint, paint lifting right away while I was spreading it. 

The paint was tacking up on the roller and pulling the freshly rolled paint right back off. As soon as I switched to a new roller head, It was rolling perfect again no problems. To confirm, my roller heat felt like i had been rolling puzzle glue, and even after washing it never became un-gummed. I never had a new roller head kick out like that in the middle of a job. And I've rolled some long days with a single roller head.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> There's your problem. It's not the paint, the roller or the fact that you didn't prime. What caused this is due to you backrolling on an 85 degree day. *The paint was starting to set up when you were backrolling. *Your roller was pulling up paint that was drying, it's that simple. So it short, it is most likely your technique.


I get what you're saying, but I believe in my case the paint was drying on the roller and pulling the wet paint off the ceiling. Switched roller heads and everything was perfect for the next 2 hours.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

The Cutting Edge said:


> I just gotta say. About 5 hours to spray that ceiling. 2 hours prime. 2 hours on the paint.
> 30min to eat my lunch and 30min to think about how glad I am that I spray my ceilings.


You paid your dues.... now you have skills!


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

Thank you everyone for the tips and insight. I know I b*tched and moaned a lot. But even with the unforeseen battles, I will say that the ceiling looks pretty good. Just not great and that is what I was hoping for. 

And if anyone actually rolled that Ultra Flat for 8 full hours using the same roller head, stand up and be counted.


----------



## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

Lakesidex said:


> I prime almost everything but never under 2 coats of flat ceiling white.


gotta prime bare sheet rock. flat paint is not primer. or, pay for something self-priming like aura. primer is cheap, you don't need anything fancy for bare rock


----------



## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

Maybe you weren't aplying enough material


----------



## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

and for what it's worth, I like the corona ultraweave 3/8". My local shop only carrie 14" in proline, so I usually end up using those, which is fine. I thought the white dove was a pretty good cover, though.


----------



## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

jprefect said:


> gotta prime bare sheet rock. flat paint is not primer. or, pay for something self-priming like aura. primer is cheap, you don't need anything fancy for bare rock


Like he said


----------



## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

love the 508, but never did roll it for 8 hours

sprays nice


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

I stopped counting at 5 recommendations to prime. I probably would have primed.

But to his credit, 508 TDS reads:

Self-priming over Drywall.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> My first problem occurred while rolling the first coat on bare sheetrock. Halfway through the ceiling I noticed the paint pulling off the joint compound and leaving pinholes that continued to grow as I backrolled. *There was not a spec of dust on the ceiling. *


That is very impressive. How'd you get every inch of that monster dust free?

Were there any contaminants other than dust?


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Wooster Polar Bear naps. So nice. I'll have to try the 9/16" microfibers.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz first! Seals the surface, period. Ceiling paint goes onto, not into the ceiling. Much better.*

futtyos


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

futtyos said:


> *Gardz first! Seals the surface, period. Ceiling paint goes onto, not into the ceiling. Much better.*
> 
> futtyos



I'm a huge fan of Gardz, but not for this application. I wouldn't recommend someone use a clear sealer to roll a 1600 sq ft ceiling when they could use a pigmented sealer and be on their way, coverage-wise.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Just to stir the Gardz pot, I tint it white. Granted 2oz white doesn't make a clear product "white" but it helps a lot.


----------



## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Try bm super spec flat for ceilings. Bomb. I like an 18" for that size and typically all ceilings, but I think 3/8 is where it at. Also purdy sucks. Wooster is best roller covers. I would have used primer first though!


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Exactoman said:


> Try bm super spec flat for ceilings. Bomb. I like an 18" for that size and typically all ceilings, but I think 3/8 is where it at. Also purdy sucks. Wooster is best roller covers. I would have used primer first though!


 I wish I could still buy super-spec flat. Although, Ultra-spec has filled the void nicely, I guess.


----------



## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I wish I could still but super-spec flat. Although, Ultra-spec has filled the void nicely, I guess.



Why can't u buy super spec anymore?


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Exactoman said:


> Why can't u buy super spec anymore?



A lot of BM's, including the local ones here, have dropped it for Ultra Spec. I kinda thought they were going to quit making it.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> A lot of BM's, including the local ones here, have dropped it for Ultra Spec. I kinda thought they were going to quit making it.


Maybe BM is doing the same with Super Spec like they are doing with Regal Classic. Classic was supposed to be discontinued not too long after Regal Select came out.

But the end date keeps getting pushed so far into the future that the manager at my paint store tells me he doesn't believe any of the new stop dates BM gives him anymore.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I paint paint said:


> Maybe BM is doing the same with Super Spec like they are doing with Regal Classic. Classic was supposed to be discontinued not too long after Regal Select came out.
> 
> 
> 
> But the end date keeps getting pushed so far into the future that the manager at my paint store tells me he doesn't believe any of the new stop dates BM gives him anymore.



Yeah, could be. Super Spec is quite a bit cheaper than Ultra Spec. In a way, U.S. Doesn't really fill SS's spot very well. It's really more of a mid grade paint than a contractor grade. I imagine there is still quite a bit demand from contractors for SS. 

I wonder if the SS that is being sold now uses Gennex tints or the old UTC. I have seen a few random packs of SS sitting around one local BM packed for delivery. I guess you can still get get it on order, they just don't stock it anymore.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yeah, could be. Super Spec is quite a bit cheaper than Ultra Spec. In a way, U.S. Doesn't really fill SS's spot very well. It's really more of a mid grade paint than a contractor grade. I imagine there is still quite a bit demand from contractors for SS.
> 
> *I wonder if the SS that is being sold now uses Gennex tints or the old UTC.* I have seen a few random packs of SS sitting around one local BM packed for delivery. I guess you can still get get it on order, they just don't stock it anymore.


It uses the old UTC.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Exactoman said:


> Why can't u buy super spec anymore?


 I haven't checked on the interior SS's in a while, but my store manager swears the exterior line is no longer produced.


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Lambrecht said:


> Stop using Purdy products and expecting good results. I use 508 all the time with Wooster covers and have never had a problem. And you should also be using a 5/8 or 3/4 nap that is a 14" or 18" cover. 1/2 and 3/8 are to short to hold enough paint to tackle a surface that large. Also, that ceiling probably should have been sprayed and bankrolled.


I agree I use 508 all the time I'd kill that particular ceiling with a 3/4" nap 18".


----------



## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I haven't checked on the interior SS's in a while, but my store manager swears the exterior line is no longer produced.



It's crazy!! My BM rep sold it to me like it wasn't going anywhere for a long time!


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I have to second the microfibers, 9/16 covers. When rolling a big celing like that, you should consider using BM extender. I extends the drying time of the paint, but it does make it splashier, so cover well floors and careful around walls!


----------



## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I gotta say,I think BM paint is Shyte.

I've had the unpleasant task of using Aura twice now,and I;ve never used a paint so user UN friendly in my life.

Just crap,I mean the stuff wants to run down the wall after you lay it off,but then when you go to pick up the runs or waves more like,it's already started to set up and just ropes to beat the band.

Stuff acts like oil base,I would rather use something a bit more idiot proof,I don't need another challenge painting something from the paint itself.

I guess all you BM enthusiasts are just better painters then I,but I don't care,I'll cut n roll my KM 1610 all day everyday and not have to worry about it running the 5 ft dash


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PropainterJ, you might find you like Regal Select a bit more than Aura. Aura has a relatively steep learning curve for a latex product, comparatively, and you're right- not the most user friendly for the Aura interior. RS is much easier and still a good quality. Just my 2c, keep in mind I am a BM retailer.

Regarding the ceiling, when I see failure like that I almost always think "drywall dust." Not saying that's what it was, but that's what it looks like. A primer would have helped; unfortunately BM has caved to the pressure and started putting the self-priming crap on their products, but most retailers that know what they're talking about will tell you to still prime (no matter where you go, that should be the case). Dust would also explain your roller gumming up somewhat as well, and the lack of adhesion of the paint.

It's also plausible that you got a bad batch of 508. It's not common, but just like with everyone else- it happens. If it was older stock, it may have gotten frozen at some point which completely ruins BM paint. Usually there's other signs you should notice if that's the case, though.

Cheers!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Oh, and regarding Super Spec going away- all of the 'specialty' Super Specs (block filler etc etc) are being replaced methodically. I'm guessing that about the time they have the US line completely encompassing what SS used to be, they'll scrap the SS interior and exterior. As of right now they haven't given us a cut off date as far as I know. As has been said, many retailers (especially those of us outside metropolitan areas) have already gotten rid of all SS stock. 

Personally, I hope it goes away soon. I'm happy to be on nothing but Gennex now, and BM's cost of running business should go down as they prune the amount of paint lines they have. That should, in theory, translate to me and then down to you guys. In theory


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> PropainterJ, you might find you like Regal Select a bit more than Aura. Aura has a relatively steep learning curve for a latex product, comparatively, and you're right- not the most user friendly for the Aura interior. RS is much easier and still a good quality. Just my 2c, keep in mind I am a BM retailer.
> 
> Regarding the ceiling, when I see failure like that I almost always think "drywall dust." Not saying that's what it was, but that's what it looks like. A primer would have helped; unfortunately BM has caved to the pressure and started putting the self-priming crap on their products, but most retailers that know what they're talking about will tell you to still prime (no matter where you go, that should be the case). Dust would also explain your roller gumming up somewhat as well, and the lack of adhesion of the paint.
> 
> ...


I don't think BM paint is alone there:no:


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> PropainterJ, you might find you like Regal Select a bit more than Aura. Aura has a relatively steep learning curve for a latex product, comparatively, and you're right- not the most user friendly for the Aura interior. RS is much easier and still a good quality. Just my 2c, keep in mind I am a BM retailer.
> 
> Regarding the ceiling, when I see failure like that I almost always think "drywall dust." Not saying that's what it was, but that's what it looks like. A primer would have helped; unfortunately BM has caved to the pressure and started putting the self-priming crap on their products, but most retailers that know what they're talking about will tell you to still prime (no matter where you go, that should be the case). Dust would also explain your roller gumming up somewhat as well, and the lack of adhesion of the paint.
> 
> ...


That's the first thing I thought when I saw the "bubbling" In the second picture. Those blisters are way to big to be caused by a paint failure alone.
But I didn't want to say anything because I am trying to be politically correct instead of telling what I believe is the truth. That way no one gets hurt and everyone can keep making the same mistakes.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Oh, and regarding Super Spec going away- all of the 'specialty' Super Specs (block filler etc etc) are being replaced methodically. I'm guessing that about the time they have the US line completely encompassing what SS used to be, they'll scrap the SS interior and exterior. As of right now they haven't given us a cut off date as far as I know. As has been said, many retailers (especially those of us outside metropolitan areas) have already gotten rid of all SS stock.
> 
> Personally, I hope it goes away soon. I'm happy to be on nothing but Gennex now, and BM's cost of running business should go down as they prune the amount of paint lines they have. That should, in theory, translate to me and then down to you guys. In theory


My understanding is that they are slowly transitioning all of the contractor lines into the Coronado brand. At least Coronado is supposed to be the contractor brand and Ben Moore is going to stay exclusively high end retail.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Ultra Spec isn't going anywhere imo. We'll have to see, of course, unfortunately I'm not prescient.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Ultra Spec isn't going anywhere imo. We'll have to see, of course, unfortunately I'm not prescient.


If I heard correctly, Ultra Spec will eventually be the lowest price point in the BM line. It will be marketed as an ultra-premium contractor line for high end repaints. So when customers pick a BM color, the contractor doesn't have to scurry down to the Coronado Dealer (or SW) to get the color matched.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Aura has a relatively steep learning curve for a latex product, comparatively, and you're right- not the most user friendly for the Aura interior.


Steep learning curve for a professional painter? I'm pretty sure you are talking about a DIY'er!?! :whistling2:



DrakeB said:


> Regarding the ceiling, when I see *failure* like that I almost always think *"drywall dust."* Not saying that's what it was, but that's what it looks like.
> 
> Dust would also explain your roller gumming up somewhat as well, and the lack of adhesion of the paint.


Drake, if you read the OP, the problem he was having was caused from back rolling (the 1st coat) - not failure. It looks to me like the paint was starting to set up when he did his back roll. And he was most likely putting too much pressure on the roller cover during the rolling process. *

Question is*, how much time elapsed before he back rolled? My guess is, he waited too long.

I have done a ton of skim coating in my day after removing wallpaper and popcorn ceilings (plenty of dust, BEHR paints), and I have never had this problem. I've also used the 1/2" white dove roller cover, from home depot without a problem. It's all technique.

What I find odd, painters always want to blame problems on the paint or the tool, never on skill. 

Cheers


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> Drake, if you read the OP, the problem he was having was caused from back rolling (the 1st coat) - not failure.


Actually, if you read the OP, it said it looked fine when he left. Then you look at the post with the pictures and see the spots with paint coming off. Unless he didn't mean that that happened afterwards (which is what it sounds like from his post), that certainly does look like a failure. If it was lifting off as he was painting and looked like that when he left, I'd assume he both wouldn't have left it that way and wouldn't have said it looked fine. Maybe he didn't fix the pinholes and just left it; it didn't sound that way to me. Just my 2c.

Edit: All I'm saying is, that looks a lot like what happens when paint gets laid on over drywall dust. It may be a combination of both things and I'm certainly not discounting like that. I'm just stating what it looks like from my experience.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

It's threads like this that perfectly illustrate why I prime.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> Steep learning curve for a professional painter? I'm pretty sure you are talking about a DIY'er!?! :whistling2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What part of your post does the picture you attached relate to? Or in other words, your picture is an example of what?

(It's been a long day. I'm tired. I'm sure it will be obvious to me once you explain. Sorry for being slow.)


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

If you didn't prime shame on you. If it's new sheet rock that's a must. I thought everyone knew that. Take it as a learning lesson and move on. Always always always prime.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Seth The Painter said:


> If you didn't prime shame on you. If it's new sheet rock that's a must. I thought everyone knew that. Take it as a learning lesson and move on. Always always always prime.




How exactly would a drywall primer have helped in this instance assuming the drywall was actually dust free? The only benefit I know of that a drywall primer provides is being better able to deal with, and bond in spite of, surface dust. If there is any dust at on the rock, the calcium and limestone fillers in even a cheap drywall primer will incorporate the dust and bond anyway. 

Assuming a true dust free surface, what other benefit does a drywall primer provide? It's commonly said that a drywall primer "seals" the surface. I've never noticed that drywall primer seals drywall any better than any other paint. In fact, it's usually the opposite. A true sealing primer like Guardz, or even 123 is a different story of course as they actually do give you a sealed surface to paint over. Your run of the mill drywall primer won't hold a candle to the sealing properties of a quality acrylic paint. 

So, what's the advantage to using a cheap a$$ drywall primer like PVA or some other drywall specific primer full of chalky fillers as opposed to using a quality flat paint like the 508 other than dust managment? 

I'm not implying that dust managment isn't a big issue with new drywall. Ive found it quite

difficult (but not impossible) to dust drywall completely. Many painters don't even really try to completely dust drywall, but instead rely on primer to make the bond. Often even "dusting" with the pressure of an airless as they spray and it works fine. 

I also agree with other posters that the problem areas showed in the pic look an awful lot like dust contamination issues which a primer would likely have solved. 

The 508, and every other paint I've tried direct to drywall, call for a dust free surface in the specs. Acrylic paints lacking the chalky compounds incorporated into drywall primers (chemically similar to Gypsum) , will not bond if surface dust is present. 

If there are other benefits to using drywall primers, I don't know what they are. In the age of dustless tech, I see no real reason to paint over dust at all. The traditional "you must prime drywall" mantra seems to me to be totally centered around DUST. 

If I'm missing something here, (other than it can be a PITA to completely dust drywall) please let me know.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> How exactly would a drywall primer have helped in this instance assuming the drywall was actually dust free? The only benefit I know of that a drywall primer provides is being better able to deal with, and bond in spite of, surface dust. If there is any dust at on the rock, the calcium and limestone fillers in even a cheap drywall primer will incorporate the dust and bond anyway.
> 
> *Assuming a true dust free surface, what other benefit does a drywall primer provide? It's commonly said that a drywall primer "seals" the surface. I've never noticed that drywall primer seals drywall any better than any other paint. In fact, it's usually the opposite. A true sealing primer like Guardz, or even 123 is a different story of course as they actually do give you a sealed surface to paint over. Your run of the mill drywall primer won't hold a candle to the sealing properties of a quality acrylic paint. *
> 
> ...


I don't think you are missing anything, other than that most of us have been using imprecise terms in the thread.

A lot of people are telling him to prime next time. Only a couple are suggesting a cheap PVA drywall primer.

Most of the people telling him to prime are suggesting using a sealer to prime with. And that can be said many ways.

--Seal the rock before painting.
--Apply a primer/sealer before applying paint.
--Gardz it.
--etc.

Just like oil/latex conversions. After cleaning/deglossing/scuffing, you should "prime." That's all that needs to be said for those of us that do it all the time. We know which primer. And it can be said many ways.

--Apply a specialty bonding primer.
--Prime with a bond coat.
--Stix it.


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> How exactly would a drywall primer have helped in this instance assuming the drywall was actually dust free? The only benefit I know of that a drywall primer provides is being better able to deal with, and bond in spite of, surface dust. If there is any dust at on the rock, the calcium and limestone fillers in even a cheap drywall primer will incorporate the dust and bond anyway.
> 
> Assuming a true dust free surface, what other benefit does a drywall primer provide? It's commonly said that a drywall primer "seals" the surface. I've never noticed that drywall primer seals drywall any better than any other paint. In fact, it's usually the opposite. A true sealing primer like Guardz, or even 123 is a different story of course as they actually do give you a sealed surface to paint over. Your run of the mill drywall primer won't hold a candle to the sealing properties of a quality acrylic paint.
> 
> ...


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Seth The Painter said:


> Sure there are lots of reasons. Here are the mains ones other than dust.
> 
> 1 primer provides an even coat to start painting on.
> 
> ...


So Seth, you successfully use inexpensive PVA drywall primer to get great, long lasting results?

If that's not what you are talking about, then what's the type of primer or what's is the actual product you are using?


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Seal the surface*



stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I'm a huge fan of Gardz, but not for this application. I wouldn't recommend someone use a clear sealer to roll a 1600 sq ft ceiling when they could use a pigmented sealer and be on their way, coverage-wise.


Troy, if you know of a white-pigmented sealer that is better than Gardz, I am all eyes to read what it is. That is one of the main reasons I am here, to learn about good (and bad) products.

I used to strip and wax (acrylic floor finish) floors. Early on, I just used the acrylic floor finish. I did an old and very porous floor this way. After several coats of floor finish still soaking in and not looking shiny and uniform, I asked my local supplier what I was doing wrong. He told me I needed to put down a sealer first. I did this and things started to work like they were supposed to.

We owe De Arch here for the history of Gardz. As I recall, he has said that it was originally a concrete sealer that Scotch Paint Company reformulated as Draw Tite for use in painting. Then zinsser copied it and made Gardz. When I first used Gardz I noticed that it looked like acrylic floor finish or sealer, milky white. Then I smelled it and could smell what I thought was banana oil, like in acrylic floor finish and sealer. Then I used it and found that it was the consistency of acrylic floor finish and sealer. Then I saw that it dried clear just like acrulic floor finish and sealer.

When I use Gardz, it is to seal a porous surface - like new drywall or a skim coated surface (also on a torn surface before skim coating) - so that the water in the paint I am going to apply does not soak into the surface I am painting, but rather will stay in the paint, only evaporate outwards, and help me to keep a wet edge while painting large surfaces like ceilings. I am not so worried about the dust as I am the water in the paint being sucked up into the surface I am painting. Gardz is thin enough so that it soaks through any dust that remains on the surface being painted and makes it a part of that surface, then dries so that water cannot soak through it. Just like acrylic floor sealer that prevents acrylic floor finish (read: paint) from soaking through into the floor's (read: ceilings' and walls') surface. The acrylic floor finish lays on top and shines, shines, shines.

If there is a better (or at least equal) sealer than Gardz that is white and helps the paint cover better, I would like to know what it is. Maybe I should try putting white pigment in it, but i do not like to experiment. I remember De Arch telling how he mixed Gardz with 123 and it peeled from the wall, but perhaps the white pigment itself works as was mentioned earlier in this thread by *kdpaint*.

One last thought. I recently painted a ceiling that I skim-coated. I used 2 coats of Gardz first, then the BM 508. I did not enjoy applying this paint, but I do have to say that it covered beautifully and stayed wet for a long time.

futtyos

P.S. I really like Gardz and have tried to read as much as I can about it that is posted here on Paint Talk.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> What part of your post does the picture you attached relate to? Or in other words, your picture is an example of what?
> 
> (It's been a long day. I'm tired. I'm sure it will be obvious to me once you explain. Sorry for being slow.)


nothing, move on


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

futtyos said:


> One last thought. I recently painted a ceiling that I skim-coated. I used 2 coats of Gardz first, then the *BM 508. I did not enjoy applying this paint, but I do have to say that it covered beautifully and stayed wet for a long time.*
> 
> futtyos


So what was so bad about applying 508 if it covered and stayed wet?


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> Actually, if you read the OP, it said it looked fine when he left. Then you look at the post with the pictures and see the spots with paint coming off. Unless he didn't mean that that happened afterwards (which is what it sounds like from his post), that certainly does look like a failure. If it was lifting off as he was painting and looked like that when he left, I'd assume he both wouldn't have left it that way and wouldn't have said it looked fine. Maybe he didn't fix the pinholes and just left it; it didn't sound that way to me. Just my 2c.
> 
> Edit: All I'm saying is, that looks a lot like what happens when paint gets laid on over drywall dust. It may be a combination of both things and I'm certainly not discounting like that. I'm just stating what it looks like from my experience.


Just to be clear, that "pinholing" was happening only on the 1st coat,within 30 seconds of applying the paint. Dip, roll, paint lifting/pinholing from my previous roll. And it happened no more than 30 SECONDS into the freshly laid paint. That is not bad technique. As soon as I put on a new roller head the paint went on PERFECTLY - no more pinholing.

Now if you want to say that over time the roller head may have picked up enough dust to get clogged and gummy then that might be the case - but I doubt it because during the second coat, the roller head died halfway through in the same fashion. There was no pinholing on the second coat but the quality of the coat deteriorated over the course of the ceiling.First half looks great second half looks terrible - thin and streaky. So the quality of the application deteriorate over the course of rolling the ceiling. 

I think the natural drying of the 508 over the 4+ hours of rolling in high temp/humidity gummed up the roller causing problems. But even in better conditions, I think the nature of the paint I was using(bad batch or not) was destined to do the same thing given enough time. 

I ALWAYS clean my roller heads when using a water-based product. After using the 508 with brand new roller heads all were COMPLETELY garbage - matted and sticky like a tack cloth even after a ton of soap and water. Also My BM 2 1/2" stiff nylon/poly brush is useless after washing - another casualty of the 508. And I argue that cleaning roller heads is another way to learn about a product. I use the used roller heads to roll Coverstain when the need arises. 

As far as priming goes I doubt anyone could have ROLLED 1 coat of primer and then 1 coat of finish and had it look great. So I probably would have needed a 3rd coat anyway(maybe I'm wrong on this). 

Also if using the Fresh Start 047 as suggested, there would have been a hell of a pole sand needed on that ceiling. I used the 047 on the walls which i did pole sand and talk about raising the nap and gumming up the sandpaper... but the walls look great.

And all you pro-primer guys - If you walk into a job where the ceilings are already painted with a flat white ceiling paint and were using the 508, , would you prime that ceiling first? If not then you MAY be putting the 508 over a ceiling that has never been primed and only has 2 coats of a flat ceiling paint just like I may be doing now.

I'm Just trying to clarify a real issue I had using a top of the line product. I don't believe the issues were dust, bad technique, or not priming ... I rolled a million ceilings in my day in all types of New England weather. This one just happens to be the biggest. But whether you are rolling 8 small ceilings or 1 big ceiling, I would expect the paint to come off the roller and onto the ceiling the same way.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

I paint paint said:


> I don't think you are missing anything, other than that most of us have been using imprecise terms in the thread.
> 
> Just like oil/latex conversions. After cleaning/deglossing/scuffing, you should "prime." That's all that needs to be said for those of us that do it all the time. We know which primer. And it can be said many ways.
> 
> ...


I would never put a "water-base" primer over any for an oil/latex conversion. I would only use a product like Coverstain or a long oil. But that's just me.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gumming up rollers and brushes is a sure sign of dust being everywhere. I don't know what else to say, honestly, you had all of the classic signs of dust: gummed up gear and pinholes in the finish.

I'm not sure why you say the "nature" of the 508 was to be a bad finish. I don't want to push this issue too much since clearly I'm a vendor of the 508 and a bit biased, but we sell hundreds of gallons of it a year and no one has this issue. If you search for the 508 on this site you can find pretty universal praise for the product. That's all I'll say about that.

Not sure why you don't think primer + 1 coat is possible, that's fairly industry standard. Not much else to say there, either.


Regarding the "pro-primer" guys, why would they need to prime after? The drywall has already been sealed at that point. They aren't priming out of principle, they're priming because it serves a function- sealing the drywall and trapping the dust. If it was already painted that would already have happened, regardless of whether it was primed or not. The unprimed job would probably be ugly and require a lot of work to fix up, but the whole purpose of the primer would be largely irrelevant at that point. Or are you asking that because you're legitimately unclear on what purpose primer serves? If so, I can certainly go into it into more detail- regardless of what paint cans say, there is no primer in paint and paint does not serve the same function as primer.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Lakesidex said:


> I would never put a "water-base" primer over any for an oil/latex conversion. I would only use a product like Coverstain or a long oil. But that's just me.


There's plenty of waterbased primer/sealers that work just fine for this task. That's one of the things people are talking about with primer being different from paint; just because waterborne paint doesn't adhere over oil based paint doesn't mean water based primers won't- they're entirely different animals.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> Gumming up rollers and brushes is a sure sign of dust being everywhere. I don't know what else to say, honestly, you had all of the classic signs of dust: gummed up gear and pinholes in the finish.
> 
> I'm not sure why you say the "nature" of the 508 was to be a bad finish. I don't want to push this issue too much since clearly I'm a vendor of the 508 and a bit biased, but we sell hundreds of gallons of it a year and no one has this issue. If you search for the 508 on this site you can find pretty universal praise for the product. That's all I'll say about that.
> 
> ...


Thew first coat and the pinholes were the very least of my problems. Got around them simply by changing the roller. It's the second coat that really disappointing me. 

I understand the purpose of primer and use primers all the time. Just not under flat white ceiling paint. 

So if I'm understanding you correctly, after the first coat of 508, I should have had zero problems with the second coat because there would be no more dust. But that wasn't the case.

And as a general principal, if a painter comes in for a repaint and wants to use 508 on the ceilings, those ceilings may have never been primed and have 2 coats of a flat ceiling paint on them, which is where i'm at now with this ceiling - 2 coats of flat ceiling paint. So the 508 should be able to be rolled over 1 or 2 coats of a flat ceiling paint without issue.

I will stress again that the pinholing was only a minor issue since changing the roller head allowed me to finish the first coat. It is the quality of the second coat that was not good. 

I am going to eat the cost of the materials and labor to put a third coat on the ceiling just because I want to succeed with this product. Just not sure how I'm going to do it at the moment.

I do really appreciate all the input I have received on this thread!


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*508 spreadability*



I paint paint said:


> So what was so bad about applying 508 if it covered and stayed wet?


Like I said, I like how 508 looks when it is all rolled out. I just find it very difficult to roll out. It does not seem to want to spread out easily. I have to "muscle it" back and forth to get it to spread out evenly, unlike other ceiling and wall paints. Where dead flatness is a major concern because of reflected light, I might use it again, but I would rather find another ceiling white as dead that spreads more easily. Maybe I should study all the comments here more thoroughly as to what roller cover to use and such, but it just seems too thick to spread easily enough. On a big job like OP describes I could see really getting beat up after rolling out 2 coats of 508, as that is what I felt like after rolling 2 coats over 2 medium sized ceilings that were both skim coated flat over a texture and then 2 coated with Gardz to seal.

When paint goes on and spreads easily, and covers well to boot, a smile comes onto my face and I think "This is nice. I will definately use this paint in the future!" I did not have that thought at any time while using 508, even after using 2 coats of Gardz as insurance and even though the end result was very good.

futtyos


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> Just to be clear, that "pinholing" was happening only on the 1st coat,within 30 seconds of applying the paint. Dip, roll, paint lifting/pinholing from my previous roll. And it happened no more than 30 SECONDS into the freshly laid paint. That is not bad technique. As soon as I put on a new roller head the paint went on PERFECTLY - no more pinholing.
> 
> Now if you want to say that over time the roller head may have picked up enough dust to get clogged and gummy then that might be the case - but I doubt it because during the second coat, the roller head died halfway through in the same fashion. There was no pinholing on the second coat but the quality of the coat deteriorated over the course of the ceiling.First half looks great second half looks terrible - thin and streaky. So the quality of the application deteriorate over the course of rolling the ceiling.
> 
> ...


Again i'm sticking to using the Purdy Marathon cover. It is a high production cover specifically designed to not matt out. There could have been, and some of you might not be aware of this, an interaction between the paint and the roller material. Similar to what can happen when you use a cheap 100% poly brush. The material of the brush (poly) bonds with the acrylic resin much more readily then nylon does, which makes it difficult to clean. I have seen white woven covers react this way before. Also, some microfiber covers will "cone" when they are used on large areas and during high usage. (cone is an industry term for when all the fuzzy stuff starts to stick together and make a "cone"). Both soft woven (white dove) and microfiber (microfinish) types are made for premium finishes, which in the case of a ceiling painted flat is not necessary. The high production Marathon is the best roller for this use.

Another thing, try a little dish soap on the rollers as you clean them. High quality paints made from high quality resins need some soap to get them to release from the material of the roller. You usually don't have that problem with production paints.

But, the size of those "blisters" says to me surface contaminant. The way the wet paint film is starting to pull loose around the edges point that way also. Don't know what it could be but that's what I am seeing there.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Like I said, I like how 508 looks when it is all rolled out. I just find it very difficult to roll out. It does not seem to want to spread out easily. I have to "muscle it" back and forth to get it to spread out evenly, unlike other ceiling and wall paints. Where dead flatness is a major concern because of reflected light, I might use it again, but I would rather find another ceiling white as dead that spreads more easily. Maybe I should study all the comments here more thoroughly as to what roller cover to use and such, but it just seems too thick to spread easily enough. On a big job like OP describes I could see really getting beat up after rolling out 2 coats of 508, as that is what I felt like after rolling 2 coats over 2 medium sized ceilings that were both skim coated flat over a texture and then 2 coated with Gardz to seal.
> 
> When paint goes on and spreads easily, and covers well to boot, a smile comes onto my face and I think "This is nice. I will definately use this paint in the future!" I did not have that thought at any time while using 508, even after using 2 coats of Gardz as insurance and even though the end result was very good.
> 
> futtyos


Aha! You guys didn't eat your Wheaties! That's the problem right there!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Lakesidex said:


> So if I'm understanding you correctly, after the first coat of 508, I should have had zero problems with the second coat because there would be no more dust. But that wasn't the case.


This certainly would not be the case if you had significant problems with the dust. There's a major difference between a ceiling that's been painted and sat for months or years, and new drywall with one coat of fresh paint that clearly had significant problems. Going over that with a new coat while it's relatively fresh magnifies your problems, not fixes them.


As far as how hard it is to roll on, I believe they make up the 508 a bit thicker to reduce splatter, and that can definitely cause fatigue. That's obviously hugely magnified if there's a lot of dust, but I wasn't there so I can't attest to that.

In that regard, if you're used to cheaper/more watery paint I could certainly see how the 508 would feel like a chore. As far as dust goes, if you're in the habit of maybe not removing all of it and just removing enough that your paint goes on okay, cheaper paint might actually _feel_ much easier to put on since it's thinner to begin with.

And regarding washing, as PACman said, please keep in mind it's recommended to wash with soap and water. If you're not using some soap, you're not likely to get your rollers cleaned up very nicely.


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> So Seth, you successfully use inexpensive PVA drywall primer to get great, long lasting results?
> 
> If that's not what you are talking about, then what's the type of primer or what's is the actual product you are using?


Aqualock.

If you need anything else lemme know.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

You really like the Aqualock, then? INSL-X is one of the BM brands I haven't really dived into yet, I've heard good things about their whole range of primers, though.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> This certainly would not be the case if you had significant problems with the dust. There's a major difference between a ceiling that's been painted and sat for months or years, and new drywall with one coat of fresh paint that clearly had significant problems. Going over that with a new coat while it's relatively fresh magnifies your problems, not fixes them.


Thank you. This makes some sense to me.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> And regarding washing, as PACman said, please keep in mind it's recommended to wash with soap and water. If you're not using some soap, you're not likely to get your rollers cleaned up very nicely.


As far as washing roller heads and brushes goes, I use warm water and Dawn dish soap. It's really find it hard to believe we are discussing my ability to wash a roller head. 

I attached a couple pics where both rollers heads are 3/8' White Doves. One I used to roll Fresh Start 047, the oher the 508: notice the difference in size?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> This certainly would not be the case if you had significant problems with the dust. There's a major difference between a ceiling that's been painted and sat for months or years, and new drywall with one coat of fresh paint that clearly had significant problems. Going over that with a new coat while it's relatively fresh magnifies your problems, not fixes them.
> 
> 
> As far as how hard it is to roll on, I believe they make up the 508 a bit thicker to reduce splatter, and that can definitely cause fatigue. That's obviously hugely magnified if there's a lot of dust, but I wasn't there so I can't attest to that.
> ...


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

DrakeB said:


> In that regard, if you're used to cheaper/more watery paint I could certainly see how the 508 would feel like a chore. As far as dust goes, if you're in the habit of maybe not removing all of it and just removing enough that your paint goes on okay, cheaper paint might actually _feel_ much easier to put on since it's thinner to begin with.


I usually roll BM Regal Select in both eggshell and flat. I also enjoy rolling the Aquapearl when I get the chance. Advance on the trim. Never worked with the Aura if that's what you're getting at.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

PACman said:


> DrakeB said:
> 
> 
> > This certainly would not be the case if you had significant problems with the dust. There's a major difference between a ceiling that's been painted and sat for months or years, and new drywall with one coat of fresh paint that clearly had significant problems. Going over that with a new coat while it's relatively fresh magnifies your problems, not fixes them.
> ...


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Lakesidex said:


> I usually roll BM Regal Select in both eggshell and flat. I also enjoy rolling the Aquapearl when I get the chance. Advance on the trim. Never worked with the Aura if that's what you're getting at.


Regal isn't really known for being a thin paint, but it probably is a bit thinner than 508. Can't comment on Aquapearl, I've never used it personally.

Brings to mind what one of the painters here (don't remember who) said a while back- for ceiling paints it seems like either the cheap stuff or the premium stuff does a good job. The in betweens never seem to work for anything, and whether you like the cheap or the premium comes down to preference. Now RS flat isn't exactly the "Cheap stuff" by any means, but it probably does lay out much nicer than 508. As far as rolling it out goes it may be that 508 just doesn't suit you- nothing wrong with that at all. Still a bit baffled by the pictures and final product, but who knows. Might be worth asking your BM rep out to have a look at it, but I can tell you right now what he'll say- prime next time.

Given that 508 is pretty pricey for ceiling paint, it's realistically a good bit cheaper to prime and then do one coat than it is to two-coat with 508. That'd be my recommendation for the future- if you chose to use 508 again.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

As for 508 "gumming up" or making naps tighter, I've found the BM Ultra Spec does the same thing. Maybe it's the BM resins. I went through 5 1/2" covers in US that within 10 minutes were like 3/8" covers. The US had tightened up the nap. I didn't even bother to wash them. It's not a deal breaker as I rarely wash covers, but when I want a 1/2" cover and use BM paints, I may just start with a 3/4".....


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> You really like the Aqualock, then? INSL-X is one of the BM brands I haven't really dived into yet, I've heard good things about their whole range of primers, though.


Yes it does its job as primer. For the price you can't beat it. I'm getting this stuff for less than 20 a gallon.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

kdpaint said:


> As for 508 "gumming up" or making naps tighter, I've found the BM Ultra Spec does the same thing. Maybe it's the BM resins. I went through 5 1/2" covers in US that within 10 minutes were like 3/8" covers. The US had tightened up the nap. I didn't even bother to wash them. It's not a deal breaker as I rarely wash covers, but when I want a 1/2" cover and use BM paints, I may just start with a 3/4".....



Yeah, same thing crossed my mind earlier. Could be a quirk of Gennex, or just something about the new BM lines. Been a few threads on here about excessive matting with the U.S., and I've noticed it a couple times. 

The 508 does seem kinda thick for a ceiling paint. I don't mind that though. I actually like it as I prefer to really lay it on thick anyway. Dipping the roller often, and not trying to roll it out too much helps for me. 

Haven't tried to wash any naps in the 508, so idk about that. But I have had US ruin a few microfibers.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> As far as washing roller heads and brushes goes, I use warm water and Dawn dish soap. *It's really find it hard to believe we are discussing my ability to wash a roller head. *
> 
> I attached a couple pics where both rollers heads are 3/8' White Doves. One I used to roll Fresh Start 047, the oher the 508: notice the difference in size?


Funny stuff! :jester:

You can wash my roller covers out any day of the week. Nice job! :thumbsup:


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> As far as washing roller heads and brushes goes, I use warm water and Dawn dish soap. It's really find it hard to believe we are discussing my ability to wash a roller head.
> 
> I attached a couple pics where both rollers heads are 3/8' White Doves. One I used to roll Fresh Start 047, the oher the 508: notice the difference in size?


That looks to me like there is definitely a reaction going on with the cover. Something in the resin is causing that. The strange thing to me is that BM recommends premium soft woven covers such as the white dove.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> PACman said:
> 
> 
> > Hey PACman:
> ...


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> That looks to me like there is definitely a reaction going on with the cover. Something in the resin is causing that. The strange thing to me is that BM recommends premium soft woven covers such as the white dove.


I seem to recall they only recommend their own roller covers 

Which is typical, of course, because they want to make money on selling roller covers. Would be the same as SW cans all saying to use White Doves.

Edit: But, fwiw, I've got several residential painters that apply 508 with white doves frequently and never said anything about it. I know they throw them out after they're done, though, and a lot are moving away from Purdy rollers for quality issues, so... who knows.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

As many times as I have seen this "Mysterious Matting" thing, I really find it hard to believe all the conversation this have elicited.(big word for the day). Use a Marathon and just have faith that some one in a paint store might know what the hell he is talking about for a change. Maybe I didn't read your whole thread, but I got pretty bored after I realized I was reading about something I have seen repeatedly, so I skipped part of it. But using soap to clean a sleeve is something that is skipped more then you would believe. Then it always becomes the paints fault that the cover is ruined. It is also an important step to understand if the paint resins are reacting to the fibers of the sleeve, which is in turn needed to recommend a different sleeve material. If you clean your tools, well good for you. I made the comment to try to inspire others to do the same. Not as commentary on your cleaning habits.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> FYI, a study done a few years ago showed that less then 80% of ALL paint consumers never read the directions.


Back when I used to watch home improvement/DIY televisions shows, there would be at least one point in each episode when the host would provide a "Pro Tip." The pro tip would invariably be information read directly from the bag of Quickrete or back of a paint can or fill in your favorite building material.

These were the wow moments, when viewers were supposed to be in awe of the on-air personality's expertise garnered from decades in the trade, honing his/her craft.


----------



## Lakesidex (Oct 9, 2011)

PACman said:


> As many times as I have seen this "Mysterious Matting" thing, I really find it hard to believe all the conversation this have elicited.(big word for the day). Use a Marathon and just have faith that some one in a paint store might know what the hell he is talking about for a change. Maybe I didn't read your whole thread, but I got pretty bored after I realized I was reading about something I have seen repeatedly, so I skipped part of it. But using soap to clean a sleeve is something that is skipped more then you would believe. Then it always becomes the paints fault that the cover is ruined. It is also an important step to understand if the paint resins are reacting to the fibers of the sleeve, which is in turn needed to recommend a different sleeve material. If you clean your tools, well good for you. I made the comment to try to inspire others to do the same. Not as commentary on your cleaning habits.


No problem man. Just blowing off steam. 

So to summarize probable causes:

1) Using a 9" White Dove roller head that wasn't up to the task of a 1600 square foot ceiling with this particular paint- especially on a hot and humid day. Theoretical, if I was using a 18" roller, it would have went twice as far before dying. The 9" White Dove performed OK for about half the ceiling.

2) Slight Roller Cover material/Paint incompatibility. Less likely but possible.

3) Bad batch of 508. Probably not . The first 1/2 of the ceiling looks good. I did pick this up from a low volume store which said it hasn't caught on there yet.

So my game plan going forward is to try a bigger, better roller cover and roll 1 more coat. Never really rolled with an 18" cover but I'm willing to try if that is recommended. I've rolled with a 14" and would consider that also. I want the best results possible.

I'm hearing the 9/16" is a good choice. Time to go back into this thread and pick it dry

I don't want people to think I'm crazy about cleaning roller heads... it certainly doesn't matter if they need to be tossed if the paint does a good job. I was just throwing that information out there as maybe a symptom of something else being wrong.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Back when I used to watch home improvement/DIY televisions shows, there would be at least one point in each episode when the host would provide a "Pro Tip." The pro tip would invariably be information read directly from the bag of Quickrete or back of a paint can or fill in your favorite building material.
> 
> These were the wow moments, when viewers were supposed to be in awe of the on-air personality's expertise garnered from decades in the trade, honing his/her craft.


So, if we go even further and read the TDS that must make us "Super pros" and if we go still further and talk about it on PT we must be gods.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Lakesidex said:


> So my game plan going forward is to try a bigger, better roller cover and roll 1 more coat. Never really rolled with an 18" cover but I'm willing to try if that is recommended. I've rolled with a 14" and would consider that also. I want the best results possible.


I really hope your game plan will involve primer going forward, too. If your local store has Sure Seal, it's cheaper than the Fresh Start and still does a quite admirable job. If there's nothing else you take from this thread, in my humble opinion, it's that priming is important.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Back when I used to watch home improvement/DIY televisions shows, there would be at least one point in each episode when the host would provide a "Pro Tip." The pro tip would invariably be information read directly from the bag of Quickrete or back of a paint can or fill in your favorite building material.
> 
> These were the wow moments, when viewers were supposed to be in awe of the on-air personality's expertise garnered from decades in the trade, honing his/her craft.


years ago when I was working at Lowe's, I was being "cross trained" in the appliance department. I was next to the paint department so they figured I could help them through lunches and what not. In the course of being trained, I asked how the salespeople could remember all the details about the different appliances. They said all I had to be able to do is read the info signs on the appliances faster then the customer.

I felt honored that they felt that I met the qualifications for that department. Probably because they saw me reading the back of paint cans for customers.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

That rings so true with my experiences.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Lakesidex said:


> I would never put a "water-base" primer over any for an oil/latex conversion. I would only use a product like Coverstain or a long oil. But that's just me.


Oil/alkyd paints are still available in my market; I am not forced into conversions from lack of topcoat options.

On existing interior oil trim, for example, instead of using an oil/alkyd primer and then water-based top coat, I would just prep and apply satin Impervo alkyd paint.

The "oil to latex" conversions I was talking about are where clients want waterborne products used in their occupied home repaints. Therefore, Coverstain and long oils are out of the question.


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Lakesidex said:


> I prime almost everything but never under 2 coats of flat ceiling white.


I always prime everything first!! In my world, primer is NOT optional!


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

jennifertemple said:


> I always prime everything first!! In my world, primer is NOT optional!



Why? 

Not being antagonistic at all, just curious. 

I wonder sometimes if we're being too dismissive of the new acrylics. We seem to have the same arguments for primer again and again; bonding, sealing the surface. Yet, many modern acrylics can perform those jobs just as well or better than some primers. 

For instance, few seem to doubt the fact that Breakthrough bonds and works wonderfully on hard-to-stick surfaces like Formica, lacquered surfaces, even concrete. The stuff just works. People that have tried it know, and we don't see a ton of posts saying "oh no, you can't do that without a primer!" 

Why is so hard to believe the specs for some other top line products like Aura when they say stuff like;


"Aura Matte Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the optimal foundation for the subsequent finish coat." 

When, if you read on they go on to recommend primer for both wood and masonry. It's really only drywall that they're saying don't bother with a primer, it's not recommended in the system. 


Drywall is not a challenging surface to coat guys, not unless your trying to coat dust also. These new acrylic systems will do the job well without it, provided proper film thickness is achieved.


----------



## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> Oil/alkyd paints are still available in my market; I am not forced into conversions from lack of topcoat options.
> 
> On existing interior oil trim, for example, instead of using an oil/alkyd primer and then water-based top coat, I would just prep and apply satin Impervo alkyd paint.
> 
> The "oil to latex" conversions I was talking about are where clients want waterborne products used in their occupied home repaints. Therefore, Coverstain and long oils are out of the question.


I like advance in those situations


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

jennifertemple said:


> I always prime everything first!! In my world, primer is NOT optional!





Jmayspaint said:


> Why?
> 
> Not being antagonistic at all, just curious.
> 
> ...


Why? Probably a variety of reasons. Old dogs like me tend to doubt a new way of doing things, we just do. The paint companies haven't helped in this with all the marketing claims that have proven to be untrue, and the changing of formulations of paint and primers that the end users (us) discover
in the field instead of through a "heads up" from the dealer.

Now having said that, a few weeks ago I decided to try this "no primer needed" idea out. Had 2 bathrooms to repaint, walls only. Color change, 2 coats of Regal Select E/S over the existing matte finish. The client wanted the towel bars removed, holes patched in drywall. Patched the holes with USG Easy Sand 20, sanded with Festool sander and vac, wiped with a damp cloth to remove all dust. 

Ordinarily at this point I would spot prime the patches and proceed with the 2 coats of finish. I skipped the primer and rolled the 2 coats of Regal Select E/S over the existing matte finish and the raw patches. And there was no flash or any other evidence that a towel bar used to be there. 

I think I'm convinced.


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

futtyos said:


> One last thought. I recently painted a ceiling that I skim-coated. I used 2 coats of Gardz first, then the BM 508. I did not enjoy applying this paint, but I do have to say that it covered beautifully and stayed wet for a long time.
> 
> futtyos
> 
> P.S. I really like Gardz and have tried to read as much as I can about it that is posted here on Paint Talk.


Why 2 coats of Guardz? Wouldn't one coat seal the deal?


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

futtyos said:


> Like I said, I like how 508 looks when it is all rolled out. I just find it very difficult to roll out. It does not seem to want to spread out easily. I have to "muscle it" back and forth to get it to spread out evenly, unlike other ceiling and wall paints. Where dead flatness is a major concern because of reflected light, I might use it again, but I would rather find another ceiling white as dead that spreads more easily. Maybe I should study all the comments here more thoroughly as to what roller cover to use and such, but it just seems too thick to spread easily enough. On a big job like OP describes I could see really getting beat up after rolling out 2 coats of 508, as that is what I felt like after rolling 2 coats over 2 medium sized ceilings that were both skim coated flat over a texture and then 2 coated with Gardz to seal.
> 
> When paint goes on and spreads easily, and covers well to boot, a smile comes onto my face and I think "This is nice. I will definately use this paint in the future!" I did not have that thought at any time while using 508, even after using 2 coats of Gardz as insurance and even though the end result was very good.
> 
> futtyos


Next time you're using the 508, add a bit of extender to it, I think it'll help with the issue of being hard to roll.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*How many coats of Gardz?*



Jazz_Painter said:


> Why 2 coats of Guardz? Wouldn't one coat seal the deal?


I did 2 coats of Gardz because it was a skim coat over popcorn ceiling and wanted to make sure it was sealed. The first coat of Gardz got sucked up pretty well. I could see lots of flashing and dull spots which I didn't see after a second coat. In the future I probably will just tkae more time and roll a more thorough one coat and leave it at that, but I wanted to see how 2 coats would work. Over new drywall that is going to get eggshell or shinier I would use 2 coats of Gardz. Then I KNOW that I will get a uniform sheen with the finish.

All that being said, I just read a comment by slinger58 in the thread "BM 508 Ultra Flat Beat me up." Here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennifertemple View Post
I always prime everything first!! In my world, primer is NOT optional!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
Why? 

Not being antagonistic at all, just curious. 

I wonder sometimes if we're being too dismissive of the new acrylics. We seem to have the same arguments for primer again and again; bonding, sealing the surface. Yet, many modern acrylics can perform those jobs just as well or better than some primers. 

For instance, few seem to doubt the fact that Breakthrough bonds and works wonderfully on hard-to-stick surfaces like Formica, lacquered surfaces, even concrete. The stuff just works. People that have tried it know, and we don't see a ton of posts saying "oh no, you can't do that without a primer!" 

Why is so hard to believe the specs for some other top line products like Aura when they say stuff like;


"Aura Matte Finish is self priming on most surfaces. Aura will act as its own primer, providing the optimal foundation for the subsequent finish coat." 

When, if you read on they go on to recommend primer for both wood and masonry. It's really only drywall that they're saying don't bother with a primer, it's not recommended in the system. 


Drywall is not a challenging surface to coat guys, not unless your trying to coat dust also. These new acrylic systems will do the job well without it, provided proper film thickness is achieved.

*slinger58 starts here with his comment:*
Why? Probably a variety of reasons. Old dogs like me tend to doubt a new way of doing things, we just do. The paint companies haven't helped in this with all the marketing claims that have proven to be untrue, and the changing of formulations of paint and primers that the end users (us) discover
in the field instead of through a "heads up" from the dealer.

Now having said that, a few weeks ago I decided to try this "no primer needed" idea out. Had 2 bathrooms to repaint, walls only. Color change, 2 coats of Regal Select E/S over the existing matte finish. The client wanted the towel bars removed, holes patched in drywall. Patched the holes with USG Easy Sand 20, sanded with Festool sander and vac, wiped with a damp cloth to remove all dust. 

Ordinarily at this point I would spot prime the patches and proceed with the 2 coats of finish. I skipped the primer and rolled the 2 coats of Regal Select E/S over the existing matte finish and the raw patches. And there was no flash or any other evidence that a towel bar used to be there. 

I think I'm convinced.


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Given that 508 is pretty pricey for ceiling paint, it's realistically a good bit cheaper to prime and then do one coat than it is to two-coat with 508. That'd be my recommendation for the future- if you chose to use 508 again.


Might be the industry standard as you've mentionned, but I've always needed to put 2 coats of paint after priming. Maybe if it's sprayed I can understand, but brush and rolled, always 2 coats. Or maybe I'm not doing something right.


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Seth The Painter said:


> Yes it does its job as primer. For the price you can't beat it. I'm getting this stuff for less than 20 a gallon.


I second Seth on the Aqualock. I like it on new drywall and use it to transit from oil to latex.

I advice you, for what it's worth, to consider the Insl-x products. Their prime lock is a great oil primer. Stix is great too.


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Lakesidex said:


> I would never put a "water-base" primer over any for an oil/latex conversion. I would only use a product like Coverstain or a long oil. But that's just me.


Pardon my ignorance, but what's a long oil? What product would be an example of that? Thanks!


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Long oil is a slow drying oil based primer. Probably has something to do with linseed oil too. Cover stain is not a long oil primer. BM Moorwnite 100 was an example of a long oil primer. Used to use it in the old days. Took at least 24 hours to recoat. Sometimes longer.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jazz_Painter said:


> I second Seth on the Aqualock. I like it on new drywall and use it to transit from oil to latex.
> 
> I advice you, for what it's worth, to consider the Insl-x products. Their prime lock is a great oil primer. Stix is great too.


Why do you use Aqualock instead of Stix when transitioning from an existing oil topcoat to a water-based topcoat?


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> Why do you use Aqualock instead of Stix when transitioning from an existing oil topcoat to a water-based topcoat?


Because it is cheaper than Stix and was informed by my supplier that it is meant to do the oil/latex transition. Were you informed otherwise?


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

Damon T said:


> Long oil is a slow drying oil based primer. Probably has something to do with linseed oil too. Cover stain is not a long oil primer. BM Moorwnite 100 was an example of a long oil primer. Used to use it in the old days. Took at least 24 hours to recoat. Sometimes longer.



Thanks! How/when are these primers preferable to other oil primers?


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Jazz_Painter said:


> Because it is cheaper than Stix and was informed by my supplier that it is meant to do the oil/latex transition. Were you informed otherwise?


I was not informed otherwise. Adhesion is the reason I prime in these situations, and Stix is a dedicated bonding primer, so that's why I've gone with it in the past.

I think there has been some talk in the Zinsser crowd of trading Bondz for Smart Prime, so maybe it makes sense the Insl-X crowd is using Aqua Lock now instead of Stix. Good to hear you are getting good results with it.


----------



## Jazz_Painter (Feb 22, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> I was not informed otherwise. Adhesion is the reason I prime in these situations, and Stix is a dedicated bonding primer, so that's why I've gone with it in the past.
> 
> I think there has been some talk in the Zinsser crowd of trading Bondz for Smart Prime, so maybe it makes sense the Insl-X crowd is using Aqua Lock now instead of Stix. Good to hear you are getting good results with it.


It's not as adhesive as Stix, but I like it a lot for those uses. I wouldn't trade Stix for it in other situations where I need a super performing bonding primer (galvanized, laquered surfaces, metal, etc...), but for drywall and on oil paint I've had good results.


----------

