# 1 coat coverage



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Get your popcorn. I got some new leneta opacity charts (form 9A). 3.5mil wire draw down rod. First up is SW emerald latex semigloss (SW pure white) vs ben semigloss (BM pure white). Both lay out very smooth, interestingly ben semi has way better hide. Now taking requests...


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*More Ovaltine please.*



cocomonkeynuts said:


> Get your popcorn. I got some new leneta opacity charts (form 9A). 3.5mil wire draw down rod. First up is SW emerald latex semigloss (SW pure white) vs ben semigloss (BM pure white). Both lay out very smooth, interestingly ben semi has way better hide. Now taking requests...
> 
> View attachment 101378


ccmn, I got my popcorn. Others here might be familiar with Leneta Opacity charts, but I am not. Can you give a short description of them as to their porosity and other properties are concerned? In other words, how does a Leneta opacity chart compare with bare drywall or other real life surfaces that are contemplated to be painted?

futtyos


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I'm envious. Your retail price in the US is almost my contractor price in Canada. There is a monopoly here and we are getting screwed.

BM Ultra Spec 500 retails for $33.00 in the US? I think I pay around $31

The Sherwin Williams prices are just ridiculous for their mid-priced paint like Super Paint. BEN blows it away in price and covers almost as well per this video.

I pay about $40/gallon for Ben which is what he says is the retail price in the US.

Luckily we have Dulux. I compare Dulux Lifemaster to Benjamin Moore Ben in quality. I have applied hundreds of gallons of each and they are both very good. I do need to loosen Ben up with BM Extender, however. It's a bit too thick out of the can.

My costs:
Dulux Lifemaster is $30/gallon vs $40 for Ben

I do like the low sheen look of the BM Ultra Spec 500 but it's probably not as durable & scrubbable as Lifemaster eggshell. I use the Ultra Spec 500 for getting properties ready for sale. The low sheen looks fantastic and is super easy to apply.


----------



## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I"ve never used Emerald SG, but, I recently used the Emerald Matte and it was great to use. Covered well, ever so slight sheen, and went on buttery smooth.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Aura bath & spa 1 base vs Aura Eggshell Af-290 4X base
Notice AF-290 has high amount of organic red pigment, R2. Accordingly not much hide.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> ccmn, I got my popcorn. Others here might be familiar with Leneta Opacity charts, but I am not. Can you give a short description of them as to their porosity and other properties are concerned? In other words, how does a Leneta opacity chart compare with bare drywall or other real life surfaces that are contemplated to be painted?
> 
> futtyos


http://opacity.leneta.com/item/opac...-rate-charts/form-9a-opacity-display-chart/9a

Form 9A is a sealed chart, ie glossy paper. There are also unsealed charts for testing penetration and other properties.

The 9"x12" white charts have been popular with the designers ordering 10+ colors.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> https://youtu.be/2z5vA_TGkRk
> 
> I'm envious. Your retail price in the US is almost my contractor price in Canada. There is a monopoly here and we are getting screwed.
> 
> ...


Ultraspec prices can vary pretty drastically depending on the volume your dealer does with BM.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Sealed charts?*



cocomonkeynuts said:


> http://opacity.leneta.com/item/opac...-rate-charts/form-9a-opacity-display-chart/9a
> 
> Form 9A is a sealed chart, ie glossy paper. There are also unsealed charts for testing penetration and other properties.
> 
> The 9"x12" white charts have been popular with the designers ordering 10+ colors.


Gosh, I wonder how this chart compares to 2 or 3 coats of Gardz over a potential problem surface?

futtyos


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Ultraspec prices can vary pretty drastically depending on the volume your dealer does with BM.


Not in my city of over a million people. The Benjamin Moore stores (individual store owners) operate like a racket and everyone sells each label of paint at the same price to all contractors. They've got a tight alliance going and nobody has broken ranks yet.

How does BM pricing operate in the US from store to store?


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Aura bath & spa 1 base vs Aura Eggshell Af-290 4X base
> Notice AF-290 has high amount of organic red pigment, R2. Accordingly not much hide.
> 
> View attachment 101386


Well, thats not fair comparing a pink to a red...


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Get your popcorn. I got some new leneta opacity charts (form 9A). 3.5mil wire draw down rod. First up is SW emerald latex semigloss (SW pure white) vs ben semigloss (BM pure white). Both lay out very smooth, interestingly ben semi has way better hide. Now taking requests...
> 
> View attachment 101378


I'm actually a big fan of spraying Ben semi-gloss white for doors and trim. It comes out like glass.

I'd like to see how the Pro Classic hides in comparison, although it is a much more expensive paint than Ben.


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

first of all why are you using a 3.5 mill? test is 2.5.


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

you should also be using 3b cards.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Just for giggles (cuz I really dont care)
But is the sw "pure white" the color (sw 7005) or the base? There's two (that I know of anyway...)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> Just for giggles (cuz I really dont care)
> But is the sw "pure white" the color (we 7005) or the base? There's two (that I know of anyway...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


sw makes bases. tinting is done at the stores.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

lee2 said:


> first of all why are you using a 3.5 mill? test is 2.5.


Because I don't have a 2.5mil rod. Cost me $60 each! also 3.5mil is real world spec's for most latex.



lee2 said:


> you should also be using 3b cards.


9A works just fine for what I use them for. Buy them your self if you want.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> Just for giggles (cuz I really dont care)
> But is the sw "pure white" the color (sw 7005) or the base? There's two (that I know of anyway...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


It was the tinted color 'pure white'. Someone brought in a can for me to shake and I told her I would if I could take 20ml for testing. Turns out I had a mistint from several months ago where I accidentally mixed BM pure white instead of the computer matched SW formula 'pure white' so happy testing.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> Just for giggles (cuz I really dont care)
> But is the sw "pure white" the color (sw 7005) or the base? There's two (that I know of anyway...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Pure white is tinted. The base is 'ultra-white.' We had some serious confusion and headaches over that crap once.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Well, thats not fair comparing a pink to a red...


Not really about 'fair' as much as its about the pigments. Organic pigments do not hide even in Aura. Also why these pigments are not recommended for exterior, they are somewhat transparent and break down prematurely. Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Pure white is tinted. The base is 'ultra-white.' We had some serious confusion and headaches over that crap once.


It has a couple drops of raw umber/grey +yellow oxide in it.

Color names are confusing. BM premixed 'white' have quite a bit of grey and the 1X bases are sterile white for example.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> Not in my city of over a million people. The Benjamin Moore stores (individual store owners) operate like a racket and everyone sells each label of paint at the same price to all contractors. They've got a tight alliance going and nobody has broken ranks yet.
> 
> How does BM pricing operate in the US from store to store?


BM stores are independent so they can charge whatever they want with the exception that some premium products have a minimum advertised priced (MAP) to prevent stores undercutting another store. Most stores will have stuff priced somewhere between MSRP and MAP. Ultraspec has no MAP or MSRP and dealers are offered non trivial discounted pricing on ultraspec based on volume.

$31 for ultraspec is a good price... Less than what I have it for anyway.


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> It has a couple drops of raw umber/grey +yellow oxide in it.
> 
> Color names are confusing. BM premixed 'white' have quite a bit of grey and the 1X bases are sterile white for example.


I've been painting for over 40 years, and I still don't know what the hell you're talking about! Are you talking tinted white's or bases?


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Brushman4 said:


> I've been painting for over 40 years, and I still don't know what the hell you're talking about! Are you talking tinted white's or bases?


There is a 'base' that I use for tinting. There is also a premixed 'white'. 15 years ago there used to be many premixed colors (color numbers now starting with PM).
Take Regal semigloss for example. 

551 *01* - premixed 'white'. Has some grey tint to it. AKA PM-2 white
551* 1X* - tint base for whites and pastels. Starts off much 'whiter' than premixed white.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

lee2 said:


> sw makes bases. tinting is done at the stores.


Gee,thanks for clarifying that for me...i just started painting last week so i just hadnt figured that out yet.(eye roll)

SW has a "pure white" base. They also have a color (sw 7005) that is named "pure white"....i think it gets mixed in the "extra white" base...totally stupid to have a base and color name be the same.and yes, it screwed up a big job for us years ago.
The color that is tinted should (in theory) cover better than the base of the same name. That is why I asked.The reason that I really don't care is because I dumped sw...just curious, that's all.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

There's a base called pure white. It really screwed us up once too. I guess they may have discontinued it...i dunno. It's been a few years for sure and we all know how things chsnge....im pretty sure it was 200 though that had a pure white base...but believe me I remember the nightmare figuring it out.lol


Woodco said:


> Pure white is tinted. The base is 'ultra-white.' We had some serious confusion and headaches over that crap once.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Lololol.both.


Brushman4 said:


> I've been painting for over 40 years, and I still don't know what the hell you're talking about! Are you talking tinted white's or bases?


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> Gee,thanks for clarifying that for me...i just started painting last week so i just hadnt figured that out yet.(eye roll)
> 
> SW has a "pure white" base. They also have a color (sw 7005) that is named "pure white"....i think it gets mixed in the "extra white" base...totally stupid to have a base and color name be the same.and yes, it screwed up a big job for us years ago.
> The color that is tinted should (in theory) cover better than the base of the same name. That is why I asked.The reason that I really don't care is because I dumped sw...just curious, that's all.
> ...


It was a tinted 'pure white'. Not familiar with SW bases/names but as far as I understand a premixed color will preform better than a tinted formula especially paints tinted on UTC.


----------



## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

lilpaintchic said:


> Just for giggles (cuz I really dont care)
> But is the sw "pure white" the color (sw 7005) or the base? There's two (that I know of anyway...)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk





Woodco said:


> Pure white is tinted. The base is 'ultra-white.' We had some serious confusion and headaches over that crap once.


Hate to bring up such a small issue, but if you're serious about clearing up confusion take this info.

SW base is "extra white" which is 7006 in their color deck.

They do have an ultra white base, also luminous white, but that's not the main one they use.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Get your popcorn. I got some new leneta opacity charts (form 9A). 3.5mil wire draw down rod. First up is SW emerald latex semigloss (SW pure white) vs ben semigloss (BM pure white). Both lay out very smooth, interestingly ben semi has way better hide. Now taking requests...
> 
> View attachment 101378


I've done this with just about any product line you can buy. If you want a real kick try some Promar 200 sometime.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> ccmn, I got my popcorn. Others here might be familiar with Leneta Opacity charts, but I am not. Can you give a short description of them as to their porosity and other properties are concerned? In other words, how does a Leneta opacity chart compare with bare drywall or other real life surfaces that are contemplated to be painted?
> 
> futtyos


Leneta paint charts are the industry standard for paint testing. Laboratory grade stuff. Like NASA, only for paint labs. And every paint company on earth uses them for benchmark testing. Because drywall and just about every other substrate you can apply paint to doesn't have the overall consistency required to give a true, unadulterated comparison. It's what the paint companies use when they lie to you about how great their paint is. OR they SHOW you how great their paint is. 

In short, it is an IRREFUTABLE BENCHMARK TEST OF SEVERAL PAINT QUALITIES. Physics. Gotta love it.

Example-As we all know, Behr loves to tell the world how well Marquee covers. Well, the spec sheet requires a 6-8 mil thick coat to get one coat coverage. That would be TWO coats on a standard opacity chart using a 3.5 mil drawdown bar. So to industry standard testing requirements, one coat coverage of Marquee is a bold faced lie. I could go on and on about how companies fudge test results using assumed "real world" substrates and applications, but i won't. If you want to know that stuff you gotta pay me. Or find out the hard way. For yourself.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

lee2 said:


> first of all why are you using a 3.5 mill? test is 2.5.


2.5 on an older non-voc complying paint. 3.5 for higher solids voc complying.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

lee2 said:


> you should also be using 3b cards.


3b is just a different pattern. The card used varies from lab to lab. As long as the comparison tests are done on the same card the test is valid. Also, the mil rating of the drawdown bar should be the recommended wet film thickness of a given paint. That's why there are multiple mils available. Most full service labs will have all of them, and use whatever is recommended for the paint they are using. Since MOST paints recommend 3-4 mils wet film on application, this is typically what someone who doesn't have thousands of dollars laying around will use. Sw stores for example will typically use a 4 mil when they are allowed to have one.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Not really about 'fair' as much as its about the pigments. Organic pigments do not hide even in Aura. Also why these pigments are not recommended for exterior, they are somewhat transparent and break down prematurely. Just something to keep in mind.


You should see what Cali's neutral bases tinted red with the Trillion colorant do! They will actually hide on that chart in one coat with a 3.5 mil bar.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> You should see what Cali's *neutral bases* tinted red with the Trillion colorant do! They will actually hide on that chart in one coat with a 3.5 mil bar.


OK but AF-290 is tinted in a deep base and 90+% organic red. I would guess cali paint would perform similar tinted to that color.


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

PACman said:


> 2.5 on an older non-voc complying paint. 3.5 for higher solids voc complying.


not true. most testing is done with 2.5 for contrast ratio (hiding). for standard spectrophotometer ( color standard) its 4 mill.


----------



## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)




----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Because I don't have a 2.5mil rod. Cost me $60 each! also 3.5mil is real world spec's for most latex.
> 
> 
> 
> 9A works just fine for what I use them for. Buy them your self if you want.


std for color reading is 4 mil.
i dont have to buy them, i use them at work.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

lee2 said:


> std for color reading is 4 mil.
> i dont have to buy them, i use them at work.


Ok so quit complaining about what I have and post your own results.. 3.5mil works just fine for real world testing because guess what: Many latex are spec'd 3-4mil wet! Doesn't do any good if you need to apply coatings at 5+mils to get that 1 coat coverage 



PACman said:


> I've done this with just about any product line you can buy. If you want a real kick try some Promar 200 sometime.



BM color sample 1271X 'white dove' vs Promar 200 Zero 'navajo white'


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

i like telling people i watch paint dry for a living, but there's much more to it than that. i work in the qc lab for a major paint company, so posting results is against company policy. we have been iso certified for many years so standardization of testing is important. Hence the need for using the proper equipment.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

lee2 said:


> i like telling people i watch paint dry for a living, but there's much more to it than that. i work in the qc lab for a major paint company, so posting results is against company policy. we have been iso certified for many years so standardization of testing is important. Hence the need for using the proper equipment.


aaaaand that is your companies testing procedure. If someone wanted to test against YOUR results, then they would use a 2.5 m. In the paint stores, 3-4m is what is most commonly used. I worked in a lab for ten years. The point is that when we are benchmark testing in the stores we are testing in accordance to what the manufacturers recommended wet film thickness is to get the results that they are claiming. That is most commonly 3-4. Occasionally it would be lower. Occasionally it will be higher, like Marquee at 6-8. So we use the one that is the most common spec for what the paints we are testing are spec'd at. That way we can tell the customer that we applied it at the thickness that they SHOULD be applying it at.

Why? Because painters will fudge test results on purpose so they won't have to change paints and go to another paint store! Happens ALL the time. You give a painter a gallon of Regal to test against Cashmere or Durations and you won't believe how thin they will apply the Regal! And then they will tell their company owner "see? The Regal covers like 5hit!". This was a very common occurrence. Funny thing is, when i worked for SW it was the SW product they would put on thin, and when i was with PPG it was the PPG they would screw up. Being able to show a painter a side by side drawdown at the exact and recommended mil thickness is quite necessary. And sometimes quite maddening to the painter. Sometimes they will flat out tell you that you are lying and cheated, which is pretty difficult to do using this system without it being obvious as hell. (i've seen people try!).


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Also it is best to sample two paints of the identical color or a straight white. OR use the white/pastel base. Why use the pastel base? Because it is a baseline for how well the two paints will cover once they are tinted. If you take two paint brands' lightest base, drawdown them both, tint them with the exact colorants at the exact formulation, and repeat the drawdown, there is going to be very, very little difference in how the two paints hide in comparison to one another.


----------



## lee2 (May 23, 2012)

PACman said:


> aaaaand that is your companies testing procedure. If someone wanted to test against YOUR results, then they would use a 2.5 m. In the paint stores, 3-4m is what is most commonly used. I worked in a lab for ten years. The point is that when we are benchmark testing in the stores we are testing in accordance to what the manufacturers recommended wet film thickness is to get the results that they are claiming. That is most commonly 3-4. Occasionally it would be lower. Occasionally it will be higher, like Marquee at 6-8. So we use the one that is the most common spec for what the paints we are testing are spec'd at. That way we can tell the customer that we applied it at the thickness that they SHOULD be applying it at.
> 
> Why? Because painters will fudge test results on purpose so they won't have to change paints and go to another paint store! Happens ALL the time. You give a painter a gallon of Regal to test against Cashmere or Durations and you won't believe how thin they will apply the Regal! And then they will tell their company owner "see? The Regal covers like 5hit!". This was a very common occurrence. Funny thing is, when i worked for SW it was the SW product they would put on thin, and when i was with PPG it was the PPG they would screw up. Being able to show a painter a side by side drawdown at the exact and recommended mil thickness is quite necessary. And sometimes quite maddening to the painter. Sometimes they will flat out tell you that you are lying and cheated, which is pretty difficult to do using this system without it being obvious as hell. (i've seen people try!).


you stated you worked in a lab for 10 years and for sw?
what plant were you at?
ive been working qc for 25 years.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> aaaaand that is your companies testing procedure. If someone wanted to test against YOUR results, then they would use a 2.5 m. In the paint stores, 3-4m is what is most commonly used. I worked in a lab for ten years. The point is that when we are benchmark testing in the stores we are testing in accordance to what the manufacturers recommended wet film thickness is to get the results that they are claiming. That is most commonly 3-4. Occasionally it would be lower. *Occasionally it will be higher, like Marquee at 6-8.* So we use the one that is the most common spec for what the paints we are testing are spec'd at. That way we can tell the customer that we applied it at the thickness that they SHOULD be applying it at.
> 
> Why? Because painters will fudge test results on purpose so they won't have to change paints and go to another paint store! Happens ALL the time. You give a painter a gallon of Regal to test against Cashmere or Durations and you won't believe how thin they will apply the Regal! And then they will tell their company owner "see? The Regal covers like 5hit!". This was a very common occurrence. Funny thing is, when i worked for SW it was the SW product they would put on thin, and when i was with PPG it was the PPG they would screw up. Being able to show a painter a side by side drawdown at the exact and recommended mil thickness is quite necessary. And sometimes quite maddening to the painter. Sometimes they will flat out tell you that you are lying and cheated, which is pretty difficult to do using this system without it being obvious as hell. (i've seen people try!).


Just curious because the behr data sheet doesn't include it, probably for obvious reasons, but where did you find it spec'd 6-8mil?


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> It was a tinted 'pure white'. Not familiar with SW bases/names but as far as I understand a premixed color will preform better than a tinted formula especially paints tinted on UTC.


I absolutely agree that a pre mix will out perform tinted colors in most cases.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Not that I use them anymore but I really hope for you Sherwin-Williams users that their pure white base is not a new name for their older luminous base, which absolutely was a horrendous product. You would have needed to do three coats just to start with to cover an existing color, and then hope you didn’t have to do a fourth.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Just curious because the behr data sheet doesn't include it, probably for obvious reasons, but where did you find it spec'd 6-8mil?


on a data sheet


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

lee2 said:


> you stated you worked in a lab for 10 years and for sw?
> what plant were you at?
> ive been working qc for 25 years.


i was in the chemical coatings division at the San Diego CC store. We did a lot of sports equipment coatings and conversion varnishes back then. Haven't been there since 1997 so i don't know what they are up to now. i wasn't a lab tech. Operations manager.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Just curious because the behr data sheet doesn't include it, probably for obvious reasons, but where did you find it spec'd 6-8mil?


I just looked at their data sheet.......it's been COMPLETELY changed! It doesn't have the mil thickness recommendation on it anywhere! None of their product data sheets have it now! Hmmmmm.......I know i printed off the old one. I may have to do some looking.

Interesting fact. The original company that made Restore didn't put any mil thickness info in their data sheets either. They relied on telling people how many square feet per gallon to apply it at. When i used it and it failed, they sent me replacement material for twice the square footage i had and told me to cut the square footage per gallon in half. It still failed again. Faster.

It isn't a legal requirement to put it on a data sheet but.......kind of makes you wonder why they would take it out doesn't it?


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> There is a 'base' that I use for tinting. There is also a premixed 'white'. 15 years ago there used to be many premixed colors (color numbers now starting with PM).
> Take Regal semigloss for example.
> 
> 551 *01* - premixed 'white'. Has some grey tint to it. AKA PM-2 white
> 551* 1X* - tint base for whites and pastels. Starts off much 'whiter' than premixed white.


Most of the premixed colors covered extremely well including all the safety colors, I was told that was because they used powder pigments. I guess the paint manufacturers figured they could sell more paint by eliminating most of the premixed colors because many times they would cover in one coat.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> Most of the premixed colors covered extremely well including all the safety colors, I was told that was because they used powder pigments. I guess the paint manufacturers figured they could sell more paint by eliminating most of the premixed colors because many times they would cover in one coat.


No the main reasons they don't have as many package colors other than the standard red, blue, black, yellow etc, is because most of the time no one actually wants those colors. Especially architectural paints. AND the amount of space and money that has to be used to keep those basically unwanted colors in stock is quite excessive. Rustoleum and the like excluded of course. And for stores that do a lot of Industrial maintenance paints, having the safety colors in stock makes sense.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Romanski said:


> Hate to bring up such a small issue, but if you're serious about clearing up confusion take this info.
> 
> SW base is "extra white" which is 7006 in their color deck.
> 
> They do have an ultra white base, also luminous white, but that's not the main one they use.



I did one better. I refused to ever use SW unless forced to.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Romanski said:


> Hate to bring up such a small issue, but if you're serious about clearing up confusion take this info.
> 
> SW base is "extra white" which is 7006 in their color deck.
> 
> They do have an ultra white base, also luminous white, but that's not the main one they use.



I did one better. I tell my clients I will turn down the job if they want Slick Willy on their walls.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Brushman4 said:


> Most of the premixed colors covered extremely well including all the safety colors, I was told that was because they used powder pigments. I guess the paint manufacturers figured they could sell more paint by eliminating most of the premixed colors because many times they would cover in one coat.


I have plenty of premixed cans that are 10+ years old. Meanwhile the pastel bases can be tinted to 200+off whites that the decorina can choose from. that's why they are no longer manufactured. End up selling them for pennies or donate them.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> Most of the premixed colors covered extremely well including all the safety colors, I was told that was because they used powder pigments. I guess the paint manufacturers figured they could sell more paint by eliminating most of the premixed colors because many times they would cover in one coat.





PACman said:


> No the main reasons they don't have as many package colors other than the standard red, blue, black, yellow etc, is because most of the time no one actually wants those colors. Especially architectural paints. AND the amount of space and money that has to be used to keep those basically unwanted colors in stock is quite excessive. Rustoleum and the like excluded of course. And for stores that do a lot of Industrial maintenance paints, having the safety colors in stock makes sense.


Whatever the reason, I agree that the package colors did hide better than the mixed colors. But you have to be kinda older to remember when there was an array of premixed colors.


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

See my next post below


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Well, thats not fair comparing a pink to a red...


Right! Reds & Yellows, worst for hide ability in any name or product.


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

See this is the problem with many paint companies white. Sherwin Williams, Pittsburg, Duthboy, and Behr, to name a few, sell their #1 mixing base (extra white, pure white, ultra white), as their stock white. It has no coverage as a white. It has to remain somewhat translucent in order to make clean pastel colors. It’s ridiculous that they sell their pastel base a ready to go white. Kudos to Benjamin Moore for always having had a factory made white not used for mixing.


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I have plenty of premixed cans that are 10+ years old. Meanwhile the pastel bases can be tinted to 200+off whites that the decorina can choose from. that's why they are no longer manufactured. End up selling them for pennies or donate them.


Well be charitable then, and let the downtrodden get by with one coat coverage!


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Right! Reds & Yellows, worst for hide ability in any name or product.


I wholeheartedly disagree, most safety colors, including safety red and yellow cover extremely well.


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree, most safety colors, including safety red and yellow cover extremely well.


I wouldn't argue with you on that! I have not done much with safety/industrial type paints (only once that I can recall) but with wall/residential l paint I have found reds and yellows have given me the most letter boxing, ESPECIALLY some yellows.


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Whatever the reason, I agree that the package colors did hide better than the mixed colors. But you have to be kinda older to remember when there was an array of premixed colors.[/QUOTE
> 
> If the shoe fits, wear it. I still remember the sound of the stampeding Argentinosauras, I still have nightmares!


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

not a 100% fair comparison because I'm just taking samples as I mix the paint, will update if I do an offwhite... but from left to right SW color sample, promar200 zerovoc, ultraspec500 LS HC-173 edgecomb grey.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PPG pure performance BM white dove vs ben eggshell premixed white vs 508 chantilly lace. PPG pure performance least coverage of anything so far I have drawdown for.


----------



## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Pure white is tinted. The base is 'ultra-white.' We had some serious confusion and headaches over that crap once.




I had 2 different locations recently tell me Pure White doesn’t have tint....Ordered & picked up only to find no tint was added even tho the formula card specifically calls for tint. Both locations insisted Pure White was only base & no tint...couldn’t get anywhere


----------



## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

I'm pretty sure that "Pure White" was the old SW white base used for straight white & tinting pastels. The current one is "Extra White" and you add a few drops of colorant to create the "Pure White." 

It's all about minimizing the number of SKUs in their stores. Remember when they had a "midtone" base? Now, it's just Extra White and Deep Base to create the colors that should fall into midtone. You tend to see more hatbanding complaints in those colors . . . Interesting enough, the whites are not BM's strong suit since there is very little Gennex colorant in those light shades.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

anyone else not able to access cocomonkeynut's photos anymore?

Conspiracy? I think it was ALIENS!


----------



## dwallon60 (Apr 22, 2018)

*SW Rant*



PPD said:


> I had 2 different locations recently tell me Pure White doesn’t have tint....Ordered & picked up only to find no tint was added even tho the formula card specifically calls for tint. Both locations insisted Pure White was only base & no tint...couldn’t get anywhere


Yeah, working in a paint store always provides quirky adventures. For years, I could just grab a gallon off the shelf, shake, sell, done. Then extra white came and had to ask if they wanted the tinted pure white or just white. Then you had the crap formulas that SW gave us that were supposed to be a perfect match to pure white but were not. Then you had the "it doesn't cover for nothing" to which we would have to first of all match a "standard color" but then add 2 oz. of white per gallon so that it would cover better.
It goes on, but I will stop my rant.:vs_mad:


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

SWPB said:


> I'm pretty sure that "Pure White" was the old SW white base used for straight white & tinting pastels. The current one is "Extra White" and you add a few drops of colorant to create the "Pure White."
> 
> It's all about minimizing the number of SKUs in their stores. Remember when they had a "midtone" base? Now, it's just Extra White and Deep Base to create the colors that should fall into midtone. You tend to see more hatbanding complaints in those colors . . . Interesting enough, *the whites are not BM's strong suit since there is very little Gennex colorant in those light shades.*


And yet getting BM whites tinted in other manufactures paint is often not possible.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> anyone else not able to access cocomonkeynut's photos anymore?
> 
> Conspiracy? I think it was ALIENS!


I can see all of them just fine.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

dwallon60 said:


> Yeah, working in a paint store always provides quirky adventures. For years, I could just grab a gallon off the shelf, shake, sell, done. Then extra white came and had to ask if they wanted the tinted pure white or just white. Then you had the crap formulas that SW gave us that were supposed to be a perfect match to pure white but were not. Then you had the "it doesn't cover for nothing" to which we would have to first of all match a "standard color" but then add 2 oz. of white per gallon so that it would cover better.
> It goes on, but I will stop my rant.:vs_mad:


Amazing thing, when i left SW i stopped having most of those problems. Seems that if they had just made it work in the first place and didn't spend so much effort trying to make their paint cheaper they wouldn't have those issues.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> I can see all of them just fine.


Their back. I put in a complaint to the supreme lead......never mind.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I know some people say good things about Pure Performance, but it was a complete sales dog for the 9 years i worked for PPG. Speedhide covered better.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PACman said:


> I know some people say good things about Pure Performance, but it was a complete sales dog for the 9 years i worked for PPG. Speedhide covered better.




Not any more


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Pure White has more than just a little tint to it. Look at it here: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/38843615507960878/

Why they call it Pure White is beyond me.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PPD said:


> I had 2 different locations recently tell me Pure White doesn’t have tint....Ordered & picked up only to find no tint was added even tho the formula card specifically calls for tint. Both locations insisted Pure White was only base & no tint...couldn’t get anywhere


And so it begins for you....SW 7005 . What a nightmare if you don't know....cuz half the time they clerk doesn't either.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

Mr Smith said:


> Not in my city of over a million people. The Benjamin Moore stores (individual store owners) operate like a racket and everyone sells each label of paint at the same price to all contractors. They've got a tight alliance going and nobody has broken ranks yet.
> 
> How does BM pricing operate in the US from store to store?


ultra spec 23$ a gallonfor eggshel in mass. regal 38$ across


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

alan said:


> ultra spec 23$ a gallonfor eggshel in mass. regal 38$ across


That store must be a pretty high volume store no way could I offer that


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Not any more


I wouldn't doubt that one bit to be honest. I'm sure they've had to cheapen it up to keep the price down in the PM200 range.


----------



## dwallon60 (Apr 22, 2018)

*Reds and yellows*



jennifertemple said:


> I wouldn't argue with you on that! I have not done much with safety/industrial type paints (only once that I can recall) but with wall/residential l paint I have found reds and yellows have given me the most letter boxing, ESPECIALLY some yellows.


Yeah, they are the worst. SW has red and yellow bases to help with those issues to a degree, but no formulas. Someone has to go old school and match even SW colors. The problem is too that there is a huge learning curve compared to regular matching.
:sad:


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> slinger58 said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever the reason, I agree that the package colors did hide better than the mixed colors. But you have to be kinda older to remember when there was an array of premixed colors.[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Brushman4 said:
> 
> 
> > Proof that a vegetarian diet will make you big and strong. Why nightmares, he only eats plants!
> ...


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

@PACman "... couldn't evolve that capability fast enough. So they all died. Why they could no longer find enough to eat is the big source of conjecture at this point." 

Well, they were here much longer than we can hope to be. Dinosaurs were on Earth for between 165 and 177 million years and were wiped out by sudden and dramatic climate change caused by drastic geographic changes and massive volcanoes*.* Our ancestors have only been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old and we are already looking at the end of days because we have exceeded the carrying capacity of the whole earth AND are changing our climate. It seems, of the two, dinosaurs were the more successful species.


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Pure White has more than just a little tint to it. Look at it here: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/38843615507960878/
> 
> Why they call it Pure White is beyond me.


It's definitely got a lot of tint for being pure!


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Brushman4 said:
> 
> 
> > Proof that a vegetarian diet will make you big and strong. Why nightmares, he only eats plants!
> ...


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> jennifertemple said:
> 
> 
> > There were quite a few carnivorous Dino's. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23526147/...ce/t/worlds-deadliest-dinosaurs/#.Wv9YQmgvxD8
> ...


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Some dinosaurs are still with us! Crocodiles were made to last. Evolved around 200 million years in the Mesozoic epoch, crocodiles have far outlived the dinosaurs. They, absolutely, none barred, must be the most successful species (Well, after cockroaches!)


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Brushman4 said:
> 
> 
> > True, but his is a vegetarian that was giving the nightmares, though, of course, one might fear being stepped on.
> ...


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Some dinosaurs are still with us! Crocodiles were made to last. Evolved around 200 million years in the Mesozoic epoch, crocodiles have far outlived the dinosaurs. They, absolutely, none barred, must be the most successful species (Well, after cockroaches!)


Birds are direct decedents of the dinosaurs, Do you like fried chicken?


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Brushman4 said:


> Birds are direct decedents of the dinosaurs, Do you like fried chicken?


True! But the crock is pretty much unchanged and is what it has always been for the last 200 million years, I find that astonishing. Birds had to evolve into...


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

*Bird-from-dinosaur???*

@Brushman4 :
*Bird-from-dinosaur theory of evolution challenged: Was it the other way around?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100209183335.htm
*


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> @PACman "... couldn't evolve that capability fast enough. So they all died. Why they could no longer find enough to eat is the big source of conjecture at this point."
> 
> Well, they were here much longer than we can hope to be. Dinosaurs were on Earth for between 165 and 177 million years and were wiped out by sudden and dramatic climate change caused by drastic geographic changes and massive volcanoes*.* Our ancestors have only been around for about six million years, the modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old and we are already looking at the end of days because we have exceeded the carrying capacity of the whole earth AND are changing our climate. It seems, of the two, dinosaurs were the more successful species.


current theories state that the last dinosaurs died off do to some event that altered the earths temperatures much faster than previous theories speculated. Like in a matter of months. None of the previous theories could account for the speed at which the change occurred. That is why the current belief is atmospheric change caused by an asteroid or massive meteorite strike that created the Gulf of Mexico caused temperatures to drop drastically and a large percentage of leafy plants to die. Then, the vegan dinos didn't have enough to eat and couldn't evolve to eat what was available to them, mainly smaller dying dinos and mammals. It is a fact that omnivores are much more adaptable to climate change than herbivores. 

And don't forget one other proven fact, and that is 99% of all the species on earth that have gone extinct, did so BEFORE there were ANY humans on the earth.

Also, less than 50 miles beneath your feet, the temperatures of the molten core reach 1000-1500 degrees f. And that molten core is constantly heating, cooling, and slushing around. Do we have any idea how that heat source effects the 1% of the mantle that we live on? Nope. We don't have a clue. But we do have the second law of thermodynamics, which tells us that in a closed system all energy is in a constant state of decay. And since our solar system is technically a closed system......Now this is physics, so lets not turn this into a political discussion again.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> Some dinosaurs are still with us! Crocodiles were made to last. Evolved around 200 million years in the Mesozoic epoch, crocodiles have far outlived the dinosaurs. They, absolutely, none barred, must be the most successful species (Well, after cockroaches!)


crocs are strictly meat eaters correct? So as long as there are plenty of creatures to eat they will survive. And when the vegan critters starve guess who gets the buffet? The crocs.


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PACman said:


> current theories state that the last dinosaurs died off do to some event that altered the earths temperatures much faster than previous theories speculated. Like in a matter of months. None of the previous theories could account for the speed at which the change occurred. That is why the current belief is atmospheric change caused by an asteroid or massive meteorite strike that created the Gulf of Mexico caused temperatures to drop drastically and a large percentage of leafy plants to die. Then, the vegan dinos didn't have enough to eat and couldn't evolve to eat what was available to them, mainly smaller dying dinos and mammals. It is a fact that omnivores are much more adaptable to climate change than herbivores.



It was both climate change & massive impact strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...h-of-climate-change-and-asteroid-strike-study


A crocks, a few small mammals and some ocean critters did survive it all! (or we would not be here today, me thinks)


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Wow. This could potentially be one of the most derailed threads we've ever had on PT. Nice job kids! One coat paint coverage to dinosaurs. That's awesome.


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Wow. This could potentially be one of the most derailed threads we've ever had on PT. Nice job kids! One coat paint coverage to dinosaurs. That's awesome.



Some of us tend to be attention deficit, what can I say. I got into trouble at grade school for the same kind of thing.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Wow. This could potentially be one of the most derailed threads we've ever had on PT. Nice job kids! One coat paint coverage to dinosaurs. That's awesome.


Here, let me try to get it back on track, kinda’: 
Which will cover a dinosaur better in one coat - BM or Emerld SG? Same color, sage green.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Here, let me try to get it back on track, kinda’:
> Which will cover a dinosaur better in one coat - BM or Emerld SG? Same color, sage green.



Aura Eggshell (3x base) - citrus blast. Main colorants Organic yellow (Y2) and Orange (O1)


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

So far, all these samplings are telling me to stick with Para & PPG! Either one will give better one coat coverage on a dinosaur or any other broad surface.


(We should'a taken the dinos to Off Topic, sorry bout that!)


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Aura Eggshell (3x base) - citrus blast. Main colorants Organic yellow (Y2) and Orange (O1)
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 101641


I'd like to see some same color samples in different products. Like, that yellow in Ben, Regal and Aura for comparison.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> I'd like to see some same color samples in different products. Like, that yellow in Ben, Regal and Aura for comparison.


That gets expensive  I just ask people to take 3ml samples (i bought a box of 10ml syringe) from their cans and mistints from the other stores.

You can do these tests on your own if you want, you can get a kit from leneta


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

RH said:


> Here, let me try to get it back on track, kinda’:
> Which will cover a dinosaur better in one coat - BM or Emerld SG? Same color, sage green.


Behr Marquee.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I aint paying for that! I have no problem getting almost anything to cover in two coats with my preferred paint. Aside from ultra deep bases, and whites over dark colors, that is.

Also, if you want to sell more higher end paint, you should have those three samples ready to show them. Its an investment.


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> That gets expensive  I just ask people to take 3ml samples (i bought a box of 10ml syringe) from their cans and mistints from the other stores.
> 
> You can do these tests on your own if you want, you can get a kit from leneta
> 
> ...


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

jennifertemple said:


> How much do these kits cost? All the sites I look at demand contact us... And I don't want to do that unless I'm serious about purchase.


Drawdown rod will cost you about $50 and available in many mil sizes. These particular cards costs me about $80 for a box of 250. Then you can use a glass plate and some tape and wax paper to catch overflow. The kit comes with a cheap aluminum clipboard and a box of 1000 5x7 cards which are also handy.

Leneta is easy to order from, you get to talk to a real human when you call.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> I aint paying for that! I have no problem getting almost anything to cover in two coats with my preferred paint. Aside from ultra deep bases, and whites over dark colors, that is.
> 
> Also, if you want to sell more higher end paint, you should have those three samples ready to show them. Its an investment.


As you have seen from my tests everything _covered _in one coat. The paint manufacturers really wern't lying!


----------



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> I aint paying for that! I have no problem getting almost anything to cover in two coats with my preferred paint. Aside from ultra deep bases, and whites over dark colors, that is.
> 
> Also, if you want to sell more higher end paint, you should have those three samples ready to show them. Its an investment.



:vs_whistle: At those prices, they'd better have a real person to talk to you!


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> cocomonkeynuts said:
> 
> 
> > That gets expensive  I just ask people to take 3ml samples (i bought a box of 10ml syringe) from their cans and mistints from the other stores.
> ...


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Cocomonkeynuts- are you using a wound wire type bar or a bird type applicator to do your drawdowns? Also, it is quite interesting to do drawdowns on optically perfect glass them look at it from the backside. You'll be amazed how much more you can learn about coverage, leveling, hide, bubbles, etc, etc. Brush out a couple different brands on glass, hold it up to the light and look at the back and you get a perfect picture of how bad some products actually hide and lay out. Brush marks stand out like crazy when you do this.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> Cocomonkeynuts- are you using a wound wire type bar or a bird type applicator to do your drawdowns? Also, it is quite interesting to do drawdowns on optically perfect glass them look at it from the backside. You'll be amazed how much more you can learn about coverage, leveling, hide, bubbles, etc, etc. Brush out a couple different brands on glass, hold it up to the light and look at the back and you get a perfect picture of how bad some products actually hide and lay out. Brush marks stand out like crazy when you do this.



Wire wound, PITA to keep clean too.


----------

