# WB Poly Clear Fish Eyes



## billygoat (Jun 15, 2011)

Well here we go again, just when I think I understand a product, everything goes wrong. I just clear coated with S.W. Wood Classics WB poly and have huge fisheyes, and crawling away from the edges. Have not seen it this bad before and would like to get some input.

I am spraying cabinet doors with a HVLP gun ran off a compressor. the airlines have two filters off the compressor. First one is around 10-20 microns and the second is rated at 5 microns. Inside of spray gun and cup is very clean. 

I have primed twice with Kilz. Cut with paint thinner about 20%
2 coats of Ben Moore Satin WB impervo. Cut with well water (tap water) at about 20%)
Clear coating with Sherwin Williams WB poly wood classics. (Cut with well water about 20% to atomize fully)

I have sprayed the S.W. WB poly a lot and find that it's very forgiving for a WB clear. 

I would like to get some input into the possible causes and silicone contamination is hard to believe but possible.

*I did not sand the base white with 220 or scotchbrite so could this be the reason for the walking? 
*I reduced the WB poly with my well water tap water. Could sediment from the well water cause fisheyes? Distilled Water for all future use?
*Is the clear WB poly thinned too much? I have sprayed this 20% thinned before on Cabinet Coat without any problems.

The Fisheyes are around tiny particles of some sort and instead of only tiny fish eyes like 3-8mm wide, some are the size of a quarter. Probably the largest I have seen.

This is the kind of topic that will help a lot of guys out. It would be nice to get that "perfect" schedule figured out and not run into these problems. I know, I know - it doesn't exist. 

Thanks


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Did you sand between paint coats , ? also wb clears seem to a tendency to orange peel and fish eye . But once dried magic they are gone . 
I just just sprayed wb Kel thane 2 orange peeled 
Bad . Dried then gone . But this was over wb stain general finishes . Never cleared coated over 
Paint . Kilz sets way to fast for me .


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Mixing systems/products is not a good idea. Use products from a single manufacturer and follow their systems. This will eliminate product incompatibilities. 

Not cleaning the surface properly before applying topcoats is another possibility. It's not just silicone that can cause fisheye. Many household chemicals, cleaners, wd-40 etc can cause it, as can using hoses or lines that have previously been used for spraying oils etc. 

You mentioned an air filter for your air lines. Are you using an in-line dessicant or just a dust/particulate filter? Dessicant air dryers are the preferred method. 

Your well water could also be the culprit. Try distilled/bottled water and see if it helps at all.

Lastly where are you spraying. Could there be some kind of environmental contamination happening? Some guy in his garage next door could be spraying WD-40 while he works on his pickup and it could be landing all over your work without you knowing. Are you spraying in a shop/house/garage?

If you still can't find the cause, you can add a product to your poly that will reduce the surface tension and eliminate the fisheye problem. It's called "smoothie" or "Fisheye eliminator" or something. Lots of manufacturers have a product of this sort. Once you use it however, it will forever contaminate your lines so use as a last resort only.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow Billy!I bet that really gets your goat!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I think I have answered something similar on another thread.

Fish eye's in WB clear are either caused by a chemical contamination or a particle contamination. One way to help eliminate them is to use a little denatured alcohol as a thinning agent. A little bit of butyl, also available from SW, helps to eliminate the air bubbles, that when they "pop" people refer to as fish eyes. And it does help to use distilled water, though not totally necessary.

One of the causes of the "creeping action" from edges is from laying down too much product, ie WB clear. Usually if you hit those areas, or for that matter, the whole thing with a real light mistcoat first, let it dry, hit it with some 320 grit paper, and then do your final finish coats, you'll be fine.

If you are using your spray system with other finishes than WB clear, before you use it for WB clears, flush it real well with denatured alcohol. You should be able to reuse the alcohol many times over for flushing.....but don't use it for thinning. This helps to clean out an remaining contaminates in the sprayer.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

mudbone said:


> Wow Billy!I bet that really gets your goat!


One day Mudbone will actually contribute something worthwhile other than his little word-plays. A few times is fine - after that it comes across as rather childish.


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## billygoat (Jun 15, 2011)

LOL, Great input guys.

I have gone back and sanded the surfaces, wiped them with D.N.A, and will respray the white WB Impervo. I then plan on sanding lightly with a synthetic scotchbrite pad and wiping quickly with maybe a 50/50 alcohol/water solution before spraying my clear coat. I am scared that a 100% alcohol rub down will go right through the WB base coat. 

To answer one of the questions posted, I did sand between each coat except for the clear coat and I am using the same 3M purple sand paper that I always use. 

My feelings are these:
I did spray way too thick of a coat. It just did not seem to be laying down well so I slowed my passes to get a nice even glassy coat. I agree that I should have left it as an orange peel and let it settle on it's own. There were particulates though that caused fisheyes. Cant say where they may have come from though. My spray room is all custom, only clean air coming in, one direction air flow as well. Just strange. I also agree with the sticking to one product line for compatibility issues. The problem is that I think most paint manufacturers don't recommend clear coating over their paint. And we all know how "their" paint is so good that there is no reason to. I clear coat on cabinets only. It's a necessity in kitchens for long term durability. This job a bit different and I would have rather have used a CV or precat lacquer for it. I have a brand new Kremlin EOS that is not set up yet so I will post once I have some time using it.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

The alcohol / butyl combo will also help it lay down and flow out.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

what is butyl? There are many different molecules with butyl in it.what is the full name of the butyl? did you say 1 ounce EACH of DNA,distilled water, and butyl each gallon?


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

billygoat said:


> LOL, Great input guys.
> 
> I have gone back and sanded the surfaces, wiped them with D.N.A, and will respray the white WB Impervo. I then plan on sanding lightly with a synthetic scotchbrite pad and wiping quickly with maybe a 50/50 alcohol/water solution before spraying my clear coat. I am scared that a 100% alcohol rub down will go right through the WB base coat.
> 
> ...


Let me know how , that triple works for wb paints 
Thinking about getting the 14:1 kremlin 
Thanks also very interested what kind of wb clears are you using ?


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## baseba8311 (May 30, 2012)

I might be a novice at painting, but I've done a lot of staining and finishing of various wood including oak, cherry, walnut, pine, etc.

If you want to clear coat wood, the best idea is to completely strip any previous cleaners, finishes and stain. The best way is by sanding. 

Then find a stain the color that you want. Stains come in many colors including solid colors. Resist the temptation to use a latex stain. It does not penetrate and can peal. 

I've had the best experience with two coats of lacquer, if spraying, sanding with 180 grit, or a soft sponge sanding pad. Lacquer, in my experience, has less frogeyes and can give a longer lasting finish. It'll also stick to about anything underneath it, as long as it is free of any oils or waxes. 

Part of the problem you're having is that you may be sanding too fine. Try using 180 or 220 at the finest. You will see some scratches, but they will go away after second coating.

This may not be that helpful for your current problem, but may help you on future endeavors.


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## billygoat (Jun 15, 2011)

Thanks guys. 
I think the culprit in the end was slow curing by the base coats and mixing manufacturer's coatings. I have used all these coatings together in the past and now a problem. I even tried sanding with 220 between the base coat and the clear and it reacted in the same way. This was complete oil on water reaction and not the normal small fisheyes. Anyways, won't be using them together in the future. 

Since writing the first post, I have used Valspar Zenith WB precat lacquer in the base colors and for the clear. Has worked beautiful. One of the better clears I have ever sprayed. I had always heard middle of the road comments on Valspar but I have to say, it's really nice. Long term durability is anyones guess but they do meet KCMA standards. I have sprayed it in my compressor powered HVLP PPS system spray gun as well as my new Kremlin 30:1 EOS. It sprays flawlessly. Have had zero orange peel, solvent pop, fisheyes, etc. 

I have tried at least 10 different clears which have been WB precat lacquers, and polys. Beware first timers that most wood being painted with a waterborne coating will bleed somewhere at some point. I have sprayed a lot of wood and you get bleed through somewhere if you don't prime it with a shellac based primer (my choice) or an oil based primer. I have used Inslx WB Stix a lot but still have had a lot of bleed through. 

For that kremlin 10:14, that should be really nice and a little smaller in size than the EOS system. You should be able to find a dealer near you and pick one up for around $1950.00 with the new Xcite gun. I think the carts are around $200-$250 so I would get the wall mounted unit and build a cart for it.


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