# Cabinet door is showing weird texture



## APP_804 (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm currently spraying some cabinet doors and I keep getting this weird finish after it dries. It goes on like glass and dries like this. Any advice? Using a graco finefinish hvlp and spraying advance


----------



## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

Oak cabinets?


----------



## APP_804 (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes they are oak. I expected to see the grain but that weird stipple if baffling me


----------



## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

They need to be primed with oil.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I would suspect it’s because you are using an HVLP to try and spray a fairly heavy product.


----------



## APP_804 (Mar 14, 2017)

What would be the better sprayer then? Air assist?


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Looks like it's just going on too heavy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Whenever I spray oak, I first coat with BIN, and backbrush or roll it to push it into the grain. Sand, then use undercoater over it. Comes out a lot smoother, and the grains have paint in them.

I dont see any stipple, I just see wood grain that doesnt have paint in it.


----------



## APP_804 (Mar 14, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> Looks like it's just going on too heavy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I adjusted the volume control down a bit and that seemed to help lay down better. Why does it look so smooth going on but dry like that?


----------



## APP_804 (Mar 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Whenever I spray oak, I first coat with BIN, and backbrush or roll it to push it into the grain. Sand, then use undercoater over it. Comes out a lot smoother, and the grains have paint in them.
> 
> I dont see any stipple, I just see wood grain that doesnt have paint in it.


I will have to try that. This is my second set of oak cabinets that I've done and I'm still learning. The stipple I was referring to is towards the bottom of the picture in the shadow.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

What was your priming process, and what materials are you using?


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Waaaaay to much mils per coat.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I've never shot advance but I hear there's quite a learning curve...
Id try thinning it down a bit more and build really thin coats if you're gonna try shooting it with an hvlp. 
Personally, I'd just shoot it with an airless and a 3 or 410. I've had a heck of a time getting my hvlp to shoot a waterborne without some issue. 
I sure feel your frustration! I couldn't tell ya why it looks great going on then dries crummy but I've had that happen with a couple other products. Some of these newer high performance wb's are a pita. Never had so many stupid problems with oil....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

I:f they want perfectly smooth cabinets tell them to buy new maple cabinets in a color of their choice. Oak is always going to show some grain no matter what you do!:smile:


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

The stipple in the picture is also referred to as orange peel. It's typically a sign of applying too much paint.

Advance is one of the most difficult products to achieve a factory like finish. It all comes down to your prep. Any imperfections are telegraphed right through the finish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Brushman4 said:


> I:f they want perfectly smooth cabinets tell them to buy new maple cabinets in a color of their choice. Oak is always going to show some grain no matter what you do!:smile:


If you use grain filler before the prime the grain will not show in the finished product...


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Delta Painting said:


> If you use grain filler before the prime the grain will not show in the finished product...


If you look at it closely you'll see grain. I've never seen oak that was filled or not, grain free. Show me some picks.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brushman4 said:


> I:f they want perfectly smooth cabinets tell them to buy new maple cabinets in a color of their choice. Oak is always going to show some grain no matter what you do!:smile:


I agree with Brushman’s statement. 

Brushing in the primer coat gets it into the grain. Doesn’t hide it but eliminaties the dark spots showing through. 

I know some here go to great lengths to try and get oak “totally grain free” but even then you will usually see a waviness in the panels indicitive of real wood. I simply inform customers that with oak the grain will still be visible and they just need to realize that’s part of having it.


----------



## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Regarding the pic in the OP. Look like its sprayed to heavily and as it cured it tightened down and accentuated the grain. Also some orange peel from to heavy coat. I would sand the advance smooth prime with BIN 2 coats sand to 320 and shoot 2 coats of Advanced thinned properly. Might practice your procedure on the back of one door till you dial it in. 
Since you are using hvlp try a topcoat that is more suitable. Generalfinishes Enduro pigmented white poly. Easy learning curve, dries fast and hard, dry and wet sands nicely. It is waterbased and can be shot straight. I use two coats vertical hang front and back. Wet block sand fronts and horizontal shoot third coat to front only. Float it out a little and let in dry flat. Pretty, feels good and smooth as a baby's butt. Better be a 3-4K job for that kind of work.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Tprice2193 said:


> Regarding the pic in the OP. Look like its sprayed to heavily and as it cured it tightened down and accentuated the grain. Also some orange peel from to heavy coat. I would sand the advance smooth prime with BIN 2 coats sand to 320 and shoot 2 coats of Advanced thinned properly. Might practice your procedure on the back of one door till you dial it in.
> Since you are using hvlp try a topcoat that is more suitable. Generalfinishes Enduro pigmented white poly. Easy learning curve, dries fast and hard, dry and wet sands nicely. It is waterbased and can be shot straight. I use two coats vertical hang front and back. Wet block sand fronts and horizontal shoot third coat to front only. Float it out a little and let in dry flat. Pretty, feels good and smooth as a baby's butt. Better be a 3-4K job for that kind of work.


Do you shoot the Enduro through an HVLP?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

HVLP. Not best for water borne products. It's applied too heavily and isn't getting atomized properly. Air assisted airless or a conventional cup gun would work best. And there are sprayfill products along with grain fillers that will work but the amount of time it would take it would be cheaper just to buy new cabinets! In a closed grain wood of course. (hint-this is why furniture manufacturers don't use oak for smooth finish cabinets!)

Most of this stems once again from piss poor salespeople not willing or able to properly inform the people buying the cabinets. People think they want oak so that's what the sales people at the box store are going to sell them. (that and it's more than likely all they carry!)

Also people who are re-doing cabinets in a house they just bought or are trying to update their existing house. In both cases they should be using different wood and replacing the oak if they are wanting a perfectly smooth look. 

I have had people use grain fillers on the facings and replace the cabinets and drawer fronts with maple and had it come out looking good as a compromise. That way the re-finisher is lust having to fill and sand a flat surface.

Another issue using an hvlp is sometimes they add excessive heat to the paint as it is applied and the product doesn't have the chance to lay out like it should before it starts to dry.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

The heavy coat flows over the grain voids. As it dries down it splits and puckers around the void. It appears to be to viscous to flow into the grain. 

It also looks like a slight but of orange peel stipple in the area between the grain as well which for me is unavoidable with a turbine sprayer and an acrylic paint. 

I know close ups can be misleading on line but that looks like a pretty heavy coat.

I spray primed some "Sandi ply" the other day and had the same issue and that was with an airless.

Repeated with roll/backbrush of sandable primer then power sanded smooth. 

Getting automotive like finishes is tough in a controlled shop can be difficult. In the field it's tougher yet. 

Starting with oak is either a massive amount t of filling, spotting and labor sanding or living with grain. 

I agree if you brush a thin primer like bin or a thinned down oil on first can help.

You'll learn also its best most of the time to clean, sand and prime first to see what you have to work with. Most fillers, spotting putty , etc work better over primer. Making adjustments at this point is going to be preferable over fixing a soft uncured top coat.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm seeing three surface defects:

1. Orange peel-Possibly caused by high viscous material with too small of fluid tip

2. Wood Graining-No wood filler, or primer that was back brushed/rolled. Material applied too heavy leaving a lower profile where paint film sucked into grain followed with pinholing at grain pores during evaporation.

3. Slight gritting- Air pressure too high while trying to accommodate an undersized fluid tip followed by excessive fanning with the gun..


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I'm seeing three surface defects:
> 
> 1. Orange peel-Possibly caused by high viscous material with too small of fluid tip
> 
> ...


Getting the air pressure too high isn't very common with HVLP units is it?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

While we're on the subject of open grain and pores in wood, have any of you ever heard of or used a product from SW called Sherwood Homoclad Sealer? v81v1 i believe is the rex number.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Getting the air pressure too high isn't very common with HVLP units is it?


I think it depends on what source of compressed air you're using. Some turbine units will only provide so much pressure rated for the gun. Other HVLP guns, like DeVilbiss Finishline or C.A.T. Panther can be used on any sized system of compressed air but may be limited to the rating of the air cap.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I think it depends on what source of compressed air you're using. Some turbine units will only provide so much pressure rated for the gun. Other HVLP guns, like DeVilbiss Finishline or C.A.T. Panther can be used on any sized system of compressed air but may be limited to the rating of the air cap.


i didn't think they would go to that high of a pressure. Don't they have to be regulated to be a epa compliant "hvlp" unit? It defeats the purpose of compliance if you don't. Switching air caps on the Devilbiss units is an old way to cheat! Of course we all know how important it is for people spraying "in the field" to be compliant, don't we?


----------



## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

RH:. yes I shoot Enduro white poly through an HVLP. It gives a recommended tip diameter I think its 0.53. I use graco 4900 with number three tip. Have to turn it way down to prevent overspray. It is pretty much a waterbourne lacquer.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> i didn't think they would go to that high of a pressure. Don't they have to be regulated to be a epa compliant "hvlp" unit? It defeats the purpose of compliance if you don't. Switching air caps on the Devilbiss units is an old way to cheat! Of course we all know how important it is for people spraying "in the field" to be compliant, don't we?


I believe you're supposed to have a pressure gage on the gun. Some of the HVLP guns I have, like the Mach 1, have air caps that are ported to restrict excessive air flow. They actually retard the spray pattern if cranked too high. A real PITA.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Don't post too many photos of stuff I have done but thought this fit in pretty nicely with this thread.

Just took these pics this morning of part of a project I completed a month ago. We are back now redoing the painted base which was pulled and put back after the hardwood floors were refinished.

Project consisted of all the walls being painted as well as painting the existing oak entertainment center and oak posts and handrails of the staircase (the ballisters and lower rail were already painted).

Entertainment center was sprayed since it's location at the end of a room lent itself to being masked and blocked off from the rest of the room. Used SW's Exterior Oil based Primer to eliminated possible bleed through. It was sprayed and then back brushed to force it into the small cracks and hole prevalent with oak. Then it was sanded, caulked where needed, and given two sprayed topcoats of KM's Dura-Poxi Enamel with XIM leveler added. I like DP when spraying because I feel it lays down nicely. And cures pretty hard. The doors, drawers, and shelves were given the same treatment only they were done in the shop. On the closeup of the doors, you can see some of the graining that still exists - it's actually a look I like and only proves to anyone looking that it's real wood - not man made MDF.

The handrails and posts of the staircase were done differently. Because of location I chose to do them all by hand. Again I used the SW Exterior Oil Based Primer but for a top coat I used SW's ProClassic Acrylic Enamel with XIM leverler added. I don't feel PC dries as hard as DP but it does brush out well IMO. In fact, you have to get down to about six inches aways before you cann see that it wasn't sprayed. I can live with that.

Anywho, considering this discussion about priming and painting oak, just thought I'd share.

Note - for those who care, the alcove above the fireplace and the smaller one on the stairwell were done in a darker gray. Hence the different look.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Dang Dan! For an old, over-the-hill, retired school teacher you do some really nice work. :devil3:


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Rh, 

That's a good example "nice oak graining". It certainly is nice and a different look from perfect glass of mdf. 

However hopefully the original poster can see the difference. Getting the pores and grain saturated is important. 

How long does the exterior oil primer take to dry to touch? To sand? 
And have you or can you compare it to say bm217 or bm long oil? Some guys get their rocks off with topcoats. I'm always chasing that sweet primer high.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

sayn3ver said:


> Rh,
> 
> That's a good example "nice oak graining". It certainly is nice and a different look from perfect glass of mdf.
> 
> ...


I tend to put it on relatively heavy since it will be backbrushed. I’ve learned to give it a full 24 to dry (not just overnight) for sanding. Less and it might still be a bit tacky. Usually not an issue because at that point in the job there are always other details to attend to while primer is drying. The odor is typically the biggest downside but I don’t think that it’s a deal breaker or any worse than any oil product, and much less than shellac based primers.

Sorry, can’t compare it to the other products you mentioned since I haven’t used them.


----------



## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

RH:. Thanks for posting the pics and sharing your process. Looks really nice! Nice example of how good painted oak can look. You can be proud of that work!


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Tprice2193 said:


> RH:. Thanks for posting the pics and sharing your process. Looks really nice! Nice example of how good painted oak can look. You can be proud of that work!


Thanks. The lady of the house is way up in management in a huge regional medical campus. She is great to work for but definitely has high expectations. 

They put quite a bit into this makeover. Besides what I did for them she had all the hardwood floors refinished, the fireplace refaced, new carpet installed in the room with the built ins, and got all new kitchen appliances. I will be going back in March to do all the walls in the entryway, living room, stairwell, formal dining, and upper hall in the same gray that was used in the first phase. Guess she likes our work.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Thumbs up. 



RH said:


> Tprice2193 said:
> 
> 
> > RH:. Thanks for posting the pics and sharing your process. Looks really nice! Nice example of how good painted oak can look. You can be proud of that work!
> ...


----------



## AmericanVeteranPaint (Nov 29, 2016)

What tip sets do you use with the HVLP?


----------

