# First Major Paint Failure



## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Some of you might not consider this "major", but it is my first in 3 years and is going to cost me about $1000 to correct.

This was a newly installed porch floor that I painted with BM Patio and Floor (latex enamel) October of last year.

Contractor used clear white pine and pre-primed all sides with BM all-purpose latex (046) prior to installation.

I was there within a week to top coat and opted only to damp mop with mild cleaner and let dry overnight.

Got the call mid-summer that the paint was bubbling. The pictures don't show extent of large bubbles or the thousands of tiny blisters. 

Went there twice to scrap, sand, prime and re-paint before finally deciding to strip entire porch and refinish.

My Plan

We used Zip-Strip to remove top coat and will sand out remaining primer and re-prime with BM alkyd primer (096), then topcoat with same finish.

Questions

Because it was only the topcoat that is bubbling (and not the primer), my assumption is that something got on the primer before it was painted, and this is not moisture trapped in the wood or coming from below.

However, BM rep claims moisture could in fact pass through the prime without causing it to fail (prime was on tight and could not be scrapped off)

How do I address the Zip-Strip??? Label says water or thinner, but I am hesitant to due either at this point.

If thoroughly sanded, is washing necessary??? 

I really need to get this right, so any feedback will be appreciated.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I hate to say it. But ur damp mop and mild cleaner. Why? 
I'm lookin at you.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

What cleaner did you use? Probably would have been better off painting dirt.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Yeah, I know why I failed, and that is why I'm gonna make it right whatever it costs. but there other factors... had to come back 2 weeks after painting house, direct sunlight and temperatures dropping fast. (none of which justify this situation now, so I have learned)

I need to make right , So help


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Strip it and redo.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Was it pressure treated wood?
Was it primed while the wood was still green?
Hmmm..


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

The wood should have been left to weather and dry out in summer before painting. Your contractor must have primed it while it was still full of moisture. I'm getting ready to strip and redo a set of new windows hat failed on me in similar fashion last year. There were time constraints to do the job, and I didn't think to let the wood dry thoroughly before painting. As a result, started to bubble and blister in areas of direct sun exposure.

Also, when you redo it, to be even safer, I suggest scuff sanding the primer before applying the top coat. For maximum adhesion.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

I think the contractor should've spaced the boards out to improve ventilation as there's not too much space below the porch. We just replaced a lot of square edge fir decking due to it rotting from below due to poor venting.

8 ball says "likely" it will fail again.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Can't believe how close those boards are together 

A also that product sucks 

Something like flood or arbor coat would have been better

Good luck


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

He says it is white clear pine. Looks like it may be tounge and groove, can't tell for sure. But a floor under cover, a porch, spaced decking? A little in appropriate. If it's pressure treated it will be easy enuff to discover. Strip a foot off. But I doubt it. would be inappropriate a material to use.

It's funny how pass the buck kicks in automatic and no ones horse is in the race. The builder passed to the painter. He to the paint mfg back to the builder.........goes on forever till someone blinks. I think the OP already blinked on this one. Admitted he may be at fault. Which was enuff to unhook everybody else. Can't undo it once it's done.

OP. Don't blink next time. Deny. Deny Deny.


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## Paint Chip (Dec 25, 2013)

Those porch floors are typical where I am in the northeast. Clean, sand/strip and coat with Ben Moore super spec industrial oil. Thin out first coat, sand and then 2nd coat straight.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

It's quite possible that the wood was primed when the moisture content was too high. Bm latex porch and floor enamel doesn't even need priming. Could also be the cleaner that was used. Doesn't make much sense to clean over the primer but it's done now. Personally I would rent a orbital floor sander and take it down to bare wood. Not chemical stripper. Use a moisture meter to make sure you are at good levels before painting. Thin the first coat of P&F enamel, 2nd coat full strength as per directions. 



Sent from my iPad using PaintTalk.com


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

maybe we should be testing timber with a moisture meter more regularly ...


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Just charge the clients for the new faux aged look


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Oden said:


> I hate to say it. But ur damp mop and mild cleaner. Why?
> I'm lookin at you.


Hey Oden,

The flooring is tongue and groove.

Im unclear about your comment about the damp mop and cleaner.

The contractor had to trim out the columns and baseboards after floor went down and the HO's dogs had been all over its, so it gotten pretty dirty.

Up till now, my assessment was that I had not cleaned it well enough but was concerned about using a hose or pw.

Which was the mistake, not doing a more aggressive wash or washing it at all.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> However, BM rep claims moisture could in fact pass through the prime without causing it to fail (prime was on tight and could not be scrapped off)


Sorry, I don't buy this. Theres no way the moisture migrated through the primer with absolutely no failure.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

What about ventilation under the porch? In our experience, that's been the biggest issue with paint failure on porches. There needs to be lots of free air movement underneath, and possibly a vapor barrier as well.

I would have preferred an oil primer, but that's now a moot point.


For those arguing that the boards need to be spaced, this is a T&G porch, not a deck.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Perfect job for Behr Deck-Over. :whistling2:


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Bender said:


> Sorry, I don't buy this. Theres no way the moisture migrated through the primer with absolutely no failure.


 I'm Having problems with this too, but the rep claims that if the primer had a few days to fully cure before installation, the moisture would pass without lifting.

I personally have never seen primer hold when moisture is present, especially after seven months


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

HQP2005 said:


> Hey Oden, The flooring is tongue and groove. Im unclear about your comment about the damp mop and cleaner. The contractor had to trim out the columns and baseboards after floor went down and the HO's dogs had been all over its, so it gotten pretty dirty. Up till now, my assessment was that I had not cleaned it well enough but was concerned about using a hose or pw. Which was the mistake, not doing a more aggressive wash or washing it at all.


I think u opened urself up to the possibility the cleaner residue may have caused a problem. Or the dampness. I doubt either did myself but there was no need to take a mop and cleaner to that floor. U opened urself up by doing it. A stiff broom would have been fine. You don't wash primer. You paint primer.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

My situation is exactly the same, primer is intact, but top coat is blistering. The Dulux rep was adamant it's moisture vapour passing through the primer and lifting off the top coat. I had used water based primer too.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

I am pretty sure I know the issue. The problem is between the top coat and the primer...........

If you have done this deck in the middle of summer sometimes surfactants from your top coat gets caught by your top coat skinning up either to quickly or you have put it on a bit thick for the weather that day, the heat dries out the top layer to quickly. 

You can test for this by popping a bubble, if a little bit of soapy water comes out, it is the surfactants from the top coat......not your cleaner and not moisture in the timber.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

^^^^ The bubbles/blisters are formed gradually weeks after application it seems. If your hypothesis were correct, the bubbles would be there pretty much immediately.


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## Hissing Cobra (Feb 24, 2014)

If I were to do a porch like that, I certainly would not have built it out of clear Pine boards because they rot too easily. That is an open porch on three sides and the homeowner will be replacing those boards regularly due to rot. He's also going to have lots of paint problems because contrary to popular belief, water does pass through paint and into the wood. If he's got it sealed on all sides, there's no way for it to get out, thus creating blisters. Right now the primer is holding tight. Observations over time will tell if will continue to do so. 

The problem I see here is that the top coat did not adhere properly to the primer coat. I really don't think your mop/cleaner caused this problem unless you left a soapy residue behind that the paint will not stick to. If so, then it's easy to see what the cause was. If not, there's no culpability on your part. What's done has now been done and you can only move forward now. A total stripping, washing/rinsing is in order, followed by a week of drying. Re-prime and apply another topcoat to finish it off. 

Personally, if that were my porch, I would have used Mahogany decking for the floor and I would have double coated it with a Sikkens oil based product. No peeling - ever.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Bender said:


> Sorry, I don't buy this. Theres no way the moisture migrated through the primer with absolutely no failure.


Absolutely moisture can pass through a primer coat, some primes block moisture, some don't. I see it on elastomeric failures. Primer is intact, but elastomeric failed. Moisture intrusion through structure defect like a crack. Exits through prime coat, pushing top coat forming a water bubble. 

Bubbles are either from moisture or another product gassing off, like primer not thoroughly cured, a cleaner or even applying the top coat on a heated surface making the top coat dry faster than its needed cure time.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

The 3rd Coat said:


> ^^^^ The bubbles/blisters are formed gradually weeks after application it seems. If your hypothesis were correct, the bubbles would be there pretty much immediately.


I understand what your saying. But if the top coat is taking time to cure out and dry underneath it can take a while for blisters to form 

After reading all the answers their is a lot of pro towards boards having moisture coming thru the primer so I would be looking at that too.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Absolutely moisture can pass through a primer coat, some primes block moisture, some don't. I see it on elastomeric failures. Primer is intact, but elastomeric failed. Moisture intrusion through structure defect like a crack. Exits through prime coat, pushing top coat forming a water bubble.
> 
> Bubbles are either from moisture or another product gassing off, like primer not thoroughly cured, a cleaner or even applying the top coat on a heated surface making the top coat dry faster than its needed cure time.




It seems that one way to lend some confirmation to this theory would be to compare permeability ratings between primer and top coat. 
If the primer is significantly more permeable than the top coat, then it would make sense as a possibility. 

Now, if only we had easy access to perm ratings for the products...


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

I think even if there's no great difference in permeability, this can happen, due to difference in adhesion. Primers are designed for maximum adhesion, so they can withstand a greater degree of vapour pressure from below.
But top coats need to compromise on adhesion in favour of other features (UV blocking, colour, sheen, flexibility etc).


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Love it when painters become physicists and chemists....,lol


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> It seems that one way to lend some confirmation to this theory would be to compare permeability ratings between primer and top coat.
> If the primer is significantly more permeable than the top coat, then it would make sense as a possibility.
> 
> Now, if only we had easy access to perm ratings for the products...


Yeah, I tried to find perm ratings for that primer and didn't have much luck.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Oden said:


> Love it when painters become physicists and chemists....,lol


Oden, there is a wide diversity of background among PTers. Some of them may have backgrounds in physics, chemistry, and other fields.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Some may even have a bit of common sense.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I have a scientific background my own self
I didn't want to teach or be cramped up in some lab
So I started smearing paint on stuff!
Lol


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Absolutely moisture can pass through a primer coat, some primes block moisture, some don't. I see it on elastomeric failures. Primer is intact, but elastomeric failed. Moisture intrusion through structure defect like a crack. Exits through prime coat, pushing top coat forming a water bubble.
> 
> Bubbles are either from moisture or another product gassing off, like primer not thoroughly cured, a cleaner or even applying the top coat on a heated surface making the top coat dry faster than its needed cure time.


Interesting


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Oden said:


> Love it when painters become physicists and chemists....,lol


You dont really need to be a chemist, just a lil experience as a applicator can give one plenty of knowledge. I can say I was educated in this very thing when we had a major failure of elastomeric. We had 3 paint manufacturers out, 3 chemist (2 manufacturers, 1 independent) trying to figure the issue out. This was when the full blown elastomeric was considered the miracle paint. We all learned that it wasn't, which is how products like SW Loxon evolved (hybrid elastomeric). In the experience of my bubbling failure, all the primer was intact but the elastomeric bubbled at any rain or any other form of moisture issues. Jmays is right its all about the coating being permeable. Flats are the highest permeable, as you add sheen it becomes less. Consider most deck paints have a sheen. Most primers are permeable just as Jymas explained. However there are primers that are designed to block moisture like UGL. 

My suspicions on the issue of the op is the top coat being applied in direct sun, causing it to gass off. I've experienced this with typical enamels like SW sologloss. Sometimes giving it time the bubbles will lay back down as the gas dissipates. I have also experienced condensation build between the top coat and surface, caused by heat on a low permeable high flexable coating.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Probably too much moisture from the ground pushing up from underneath the boards. 

Possibilities I can think of :

1) ventilation problem, not an application error
2) contamination on the primer
3) paint was defective/incompatibility with primer
4) the exterior elements (drastic changes in temps and/or relative humidity while applying/curing), which could have had a synergistic effect with possibility 1


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Bender said:


> Sorry, I don't buy this. Theres no way the moisture migrated through the primer with absolutely no failure.


Primers have pin holes from solvent evaporation. Alkyds from solvent evaporation and acrylics for evaporation and coalescence. Since all paint films in architectural coatings exhibit this characteristic, when you start layering films on top of each other the system becomes less and less breathable. If you layer Swiss cheese one layer at a time the holes will no longer match. Therefore, the primer can allow moisture to migrate through with out lifting as long as it's not hydrostatic pressure. This case looks like solvent blisters from the primer not being fully dry causing solvent entrapment. Pop one and smell what's inside. Does it smell like water or paint thinner?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Right, but this is a water based primer.
I know that primers can be somewhat permeable but the fact that he painted it in October and it blistered the following summer sounds to me like the film never coalesced. I'm curious if it has 1 or 2 coats of finish?



> The pictures don't show extent of large bubbles or the thousands of tiny blisters.


I doubt the wood was wet enough to off gas consistently across the whole surface, and certainly not with zero failure. I could see pockets of moisture but not everywhere.

Thats it Somebody call KTA Tator


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the feedback




Hines Painting said:


> What cleaner did you use? Probably would have been better off painting dirt.


Damp mop with "Simply Green", then straight water, dry overnight.
Maybe not a "mild cleaner", but use often as a degreaser, doesn't appear to leave residue, and have never had a problem.

I debated this, but was a catch 22, it could of failed because I didn't wash it.



Oden said:


> I think the OP already blinked on this one. Admitted he may be at fault. Which was enuff to unhook everybody else. Can't undo it once it's done.
> 
> OP. Don't blink next time. Deny. Deny Deny.


You hit that one dead square



ewingpainting.net said:


> Bubbles are either from moisture or another product gassing off, like primer not thoroughly cured, a cleaner or even applying the top coat on a heated surface making the top coat dry faster than its needed cure time.


Moisture - No moisture reading after stripping 

Direct Light/hotSurface - porch get direct light from 9am to 3pm, was very conscience of this and positive we did this late in the day and it was late Oct. If anything, maybe temp dropped to fast.

Gassing off - The primer was on thick and took to coats of the stripper to completely remove.

Would this happen if the contractor had loaded 2 coats before the 1st had time to fully dry.



NACE said:


> . Pop one and smell what's inside. Does it smell like water or paint thinner?


Sorry, didn't smell the bubbles



Bender said:


> I'm curious if it has 1 or 2 coats of finish?
> 
> 
> I doubt the wood was wet enough to off gas consistently across the whole surface, and certainly not with zero failure. I could see pockets of moisture but not everywhere.


2 Coats

two interesting things

If you pop the bubbles the would lay down and adhere right back to the primer and would be difficult to scape or sand.

and there were sporadic groups of boards that had no bubbles and sometimes a bubbling board between 2 boards with none.

thank again for the feedback


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Bubbles are either from moisture or another product gassing off, like primer not thoroughly cured, a cleaner or even applying the top coat on a heated surface making the top coat dry faster than its needed cure time.


Just want to address this in a separate response

The prime coat was on thick but surface fully dry when topcoat applied.

After stripping the topcoat (rather easily), there where areas of built up primer that we tried to sand out the next day, but they were gummy, which I thought was from the stripper, had to apply second coat of stripper to remove.

If the contractor had loaded up 2 heavy coats with out letting the 1st fully dry. would this gas off in the sun without lifting off.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

HQP2005 said:


> and there were sporadic groups of boards that had no bubbles and sometimes a bubbling board between 2 boards with none.
> 
> thank again for the feedback


Well... that sounds like moisture:whistling2:


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Is the surface hot in warm weather? Or does the paint reflect the heat?

My windows that I mentioned, only bubbled up in parts of the house with direct sunlight. In the shady sides, no blisters at all. That points to moisture evaporating too fast and creating too much vapour pressure. The darker the colour, the worse the effect.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Agree, dark colours are problematic.


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## ZKPainting (Oct 6, 2012)

In my opinion its a moisture issue. Back priming is better than nothing. The moisture content of the wood needs to be low enough but even if the wood is dry your still only creating a thin wall of protection for wood that is essential a sponge. Was the T and G primed before installation or are the tongues all bare? Primer is designed to stick to things, not act as a vapor barrier. New growth wood needs more than a shell of primer surrounding the surface to protect it from the elements. Best practice would be to coat barewood with a paintable wood preservative/sealer, this penetrates the wood allowing no room for future moisture. Essentially turning new growth into old growth ie. no place for the moisture in the wood in the first place. Then prime and top coat. Creating a vapor barrier on the top of the board is very dangerous. Water gets in from below and wants to travel up. Your system allows for no error, the wood needs to be able to breathe well if your going to allow moisture to penetrate the wood. Either seal it completely or let it breathe. Good luck.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

Repaintpro said:


> I am pretty sure I know the issue. The problem is between the top coat and the primer...........
> 
> If you have done this deck in the middle of summer sometimes surfactants from your top coat gets caught by your top coat skinning up either to quickly or you have put it on a bit thick for the weather that day, the heat dries out the top layer to quickly.
> 
> You can test for this by popping a bubble, if a little bit of soapy water comes out, it is the surfactants from the top coat......not your cleaner and not moisture in the timber.




This from my previous post still fits. If your priming has done a great job of sealing the timber, and your top coat was put on in the heat and maybe a bit thicker in some areas it will trap surfactants in and cause bubbles/blisters. The paint on the top skins up too quick and the liquids have no where to go. 

You can test this by popping one of the blisters. It will push out a little bit of frothy, slippery feeling water. Like you have said the blister can be cut and pushed back down and it will readhear to the primer.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Don't think so. The outside of the film always dries first, but the paint will not permanently trap its own moisture, because it's permeable. Just because the bottom of the film dries slower, that's no reason for it to lift off from the primer.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

The 3rd Coat said:


> Is the surface hot in warm weather? Or does the paint reflect the heat?
> 
> My windows that I mentioned, only bubbled up in parts of the house with direct sunlight. In the shady sides, no blisters at all. That points to moisture evaporating too fast and creating too much vapour pressure. The darker the colour, the worse the effect.


 Yes, the surface the gets direct sun gets hot

and the area 2 ft off the house, the whole length of the porch never gets sun and had no bubbling, 

only the the areas in the sun and the tighten back up after the sun passes.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

I KNOW this is waaaayy after original post-date!!!

Found this veeeeerry interesting....in all these posts, only 1 person hinted at the main reason (IMO & knowledge), for all these troubles!

>>>> Reason #1:
* There IS NO PRIMER OUT THERE for floors!!!
* I'm surprised how ingrained the erroneous thought "I've gotta prime the floors!" is!!
* EVERY can of primer I've read out there, & all Product-Info sheets, all say "Not for use on floors".
* This BM sheet does list lots of int/ext uses....but doesn't specifically mention floors. Therefore...DON'T use it on floors!!
* Also- because it lists lots of interior WALL uses, THAT ALONE should tell you it's not built to walk on...AT ALL.
* Additionally, in a way, the varying permeabilities of primers don't matter...HERE. The point is that you're REDUCING the woods ability to dry out by priming it!
* A couple posters did correctly mention that most P&F paints are considered "Self-Priming". I don't like that exact phrasing, but it's "ok". What it should say IMO is:
"Floor paints, on bare/dry/correctly-prepped NON-PRIMED substrates, need 2 coats OF ITSELF to form the best system to be walked on".
* Most brands suggest thinning the first coat SLIGHTLY with water. This aids the penetration of the initial coat. 2nd coat goes on UNDILUTED.
* Sooooo...don't throw in another coat of something else (a "primer"), that's gonna behave differently, than the 2 P&F coats.

>>>> Reason #2:
* Not definitively checking for moisture. NOT checking with proper probe-leads is just foolish.
* Many here did mention the cleaning of the primer.
* LOTS OF rinsing would've been needed. But again...it SHOULD NOT have been primed.

>>>> The BEST practice here, would've been:
1) Check the wood for moisture...with the proper tool!!! You don't just "guess" when you wanna check your car-battery do ya?
2) ONE slightly-diluted initial coat...OF THE P&F PAINT...on ALL SIX SIDES.
3) 2nd UNDILUTED coat....IDEALLY...on all sides as well. This way, high moisture-loads underneath the floor are kept out MUCH better. Again, a car example-
What would happen if cars were primed & painted only on THE VISIBLE side??

Thanks for suffering thru all this gang!
Faron


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Actually, Benjamin Latex p&f specifically calls for primer on wood floors.


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Good Lord...how did my post get there twice?!?!?!
Sorry...:blink:! EDIT: fixed that for ya.

This is kinda interesting-
* Yes, Dean V., you are correct. 
* I had earlier poured over the TDS's for both the Primer & the P&F paint.
* The PRIMER TDS, as I mentioned, doesn't say anything about FLOOR use specifically. 
* If this primer is indeed ACTUALLY tough-enough to be walked-on, it should state that!!! Floor-use is outside the capability of ALMOST ALL primers.
* Yes, the P&F PAINT TDS calls for that primer.
* To ME...this is kind of a gray-area that shouldn't exist.

Faron


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