# Help With Estimate



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi everyone. I was wondering if I might be able to get some advice on an estimate. First off, I'm used to doing small jobs. Mostly decks, and porches, and outdoor furniture. Also, for those jobs, I work by the hour, @ $20.00 an hr. I've never actually given an upfront estimate for a paint job.

I was approached with a 3 bedroom, 2 full bath, 2 half-bath house, to put a bid on. 4 closets, 7 doors, and 9 windows. Everything needs to be done, including ceilings, and trim. It is currently painted contractors white. They want the ceilings one color, the walls and doors a second color, and the trim a third color. Lots of lighting fixtures, and wall outlets. It's about 2,700 sq ft. total.

They want benamin moore paint, also. 

So, should I prime over the contractors white first, then paint? How would you guys estimate a job like this?


----------



## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

$6999.00..........................................:whistling2:


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

tonytwotime said:


> Hi everyone. I was wondering if I might be able to get some advice on an estimate. First off, I'm used to doing small jobs. Mostly decks, and porches, and outdoor furniture. Also, for those jobs, I work by the hour, @ $20.00 an hr. I've never actually given an upfront estimate for a paint job.
> 
> I was approached with a 3 bedroom, 2 full bath, 2 half-bath house, to put a bid on. 4 closets, 7 doors, and 9 windows. Everything needs to be done, including ceilings, and trim. It is currently painted contractors white. They want the ceilings one color, the walls and doors a second color, and the trim a third color. Lots of lighting fixtures, and wall outlets. It's about 2,700 sq ft. total.
> 
> ...


You must have an idea how long it takes to paint a bedroom,a window a ceiling a closet or whatever...just break it down into smaller parts and add them up...If it takes you 2-3 hours to paint a bedroom (2 coats) them multiply your hourly rate by X hours...After you have the labour figured out just add the materials,tax and overhead to the estimate.


----------



## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

:thumbsup:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Josey to the rescue!


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Tony,

You say you like to receive $20/hr for your services (at this point I won't get into the ability of running a legit business charging that rate, but that's yours, the gov't, insurance co's, and your customers' issue)

Once you establish that you can run a legit business on that wage, you then need to figure your overhead expenses. These include insurance (you do carry liability and workers comp, right?), vehicle costs (I assume you are not working out of your sisters' Yugo :whistling2: ), depreciation of tools and equipment, your time running work related errands, costs for support services (cell, internet, etc), and all the other business related costs.

Once you have gathered all your overhead time and materials, then figure how much you have to add onto that $20/hour you strive to receive.

Now you have a more accurate hourly wage you must receive to keep your business afloat.

Next, go over your records and figure how long it takes you to prepare, prime, and paint the surfaces you will be working on. With a little effort you can break walls down to a price per sq ft, windows and doors to a per item price, and trim to a linear foot price.

Add all these item pricings up for the projected job, add in the cost of materials, and you should have a fairly accurate estimate.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Josey nailed it. 

Your _current_ hourly rate will be a topic for another thread.........


----------



## Jim Sliff (Apr 17, 2011)

And that "other thread" subject is the first priority - get your business affairs in order before you do *any* more work. Otherwise, people here might be advising you how to perform a job illegally.

But assuming you have the aforementioned insurance, are licensed, etc, the advice here is pretty good - don't fall into the trap of "eating the elephant" in one bite by picking a number out of thin air.

Learn how to estimate. Do you know how to measure square footage of *surfaces* (the size of the house and number of rooms are irrelevant - the only things that matter are the square footage of each surface type and accessibility - plus one critical point I didn't see mentioned: is it occupied? If so, who's moving the furniture? Who's taking care of protecting electronic equipment? How much masking is needed and what type.......). Are the residents moving out while the house is being painted (assuming it's occupied?). If so you need to give them a pretty-much dead-on amount of time it will take to complete the job. And regarding covering furniture and such, things like computers, TV's set-top boxes etc have to be unplugged and moved - and most contractors I know exclude moving ALL electronic equipment from their contract.

Do you own an estimating manual? If not, you need one. You can get several different ones at any bookstore - but they generally provide costs-per-square foot of certain operations, so if you don't know how to figure square footage they're no help.

Are you a PDCA member? If so you could call any of the board members and they'd direct you to someone who could help - possibly offering simple guidance for free or assisting you in the estimating process for a fee.

But IMO if you have to ask on an open message board what to charge for a house painting job you're in way over your head and should turn it down. Don't take something like this on until you know what you're doing.

PS - I've never heard the term "contractor's white"....but it's not relevant anyway, since its condition is far more important than its color. Neither is the brand of paint, unless you're banned from a certain brand's stores.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Good first post Jim. :thumbsup:


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

lets not get ridiculous now, I would imagine just about everyone here if they were to look back at their first large estimate they did did not carry around a estimating manual lol. Or contacted the PDCA for guidance. Or even calculated the time it was going to take to cover a computer with plastic.

Just ballpark the amount of days you think it might take, multiply that by your daily rate of $160, add a little more for taxes. Then add materials. It's not that hard.

If you take a beating then you will know you need to adjust for the next one.

Pat


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> lets not get ridiculous now, I would imagine just about everyone here if they were to look back at their first large estimate they did did not carry around a estimating manual lol. Or contacted the PDCA for guidance. Or even calculated the time it was going to take to cover a computer with plastic.
> 
> Just ballpark the amount of days you think it might take, multiply that by your daily rate of $160, add a little more for taxes. Then add materials. It's not that hard.
> 
> ...


IMHO, its best to learn from _other peoples _mistakes than your own. If the OP takes the advise given, he will have a better chance of surviving. The school of hard knocks is a good one, but over rated.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm not going to touch upon your estimate, but I will comment on your "hourly rate."

Buy this book and read it:

http://www.barebonesbiz.com/catalog/how-much-should-i-charge.html


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks to everyone.....I guess?



> is it occupied? If so, who's moving the furniture? Who's taking care of protecting electronic equipment? Are the residents moving out while the house is being painted (assuming it's occupied?).


It's a beach house, that is a rental property. I would have until memorial day weekend, to finish. It won't be occupied until that weekend. It is furnished, and would probably take a few hours to move, and cover. 



> Just ballpark the amount of days you think it might take, multiply that by your daily rate of $160, add a little more for taxes. Then add materials. It's not that hard.


I think that's what I'll do. Thanks. I'll just add more hours, because I'm pretty sure I'm slower than 2-3 hours per room, and it's going to take me probably 2 weeks to get this done.


----------



## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

When I sat down and took the much great advice of the Paint Talk community, I realized the importance of learning the actual costs of being legit & surviving. I'm small time and for the most part a one man show, so my costs are pretty minimum. _*IF*_ I were to charge $20 an hour though I'd come out making about $12 an hour. At that rate you might as well get a FT job working as a foreman for another company or something making 2-3 times as much per year without all the headache & risk.

I only say this as I told a friend once who laughed at me and decided I was full of myself and he was "going to do great at $18 per hour"... He just lost his house and moved his family into a small rental. :thumbsup:


----------



## shamrockbear (Sep 22, 2010)

Here is a point of reference all the franchises like five star painting charge appox. 2.15 a square foot for average room with one window and one door so for a 10 x 15 would cost $325 for the room or 5800 for your project, I would charge a little less me personally I would charge around $4500 plus paint costs. I hope this helps I promise you that you will be the middle estimate not the cheapest not the most expensive some of the expensive places will be at 6k and up and low baller will be starting at 3k and up.

G


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> Thanks to everyone.....I guess?
> 
> It's a beach house, that is a rental property. I would have until memorial day weekend, to finish. It won't be occupied until that weekend. It is furnished, and would probably take a few hours to move, and cover.
> 
> I think that's what I'll do. Thanks. I'll just add more hours, because I'm pretty sure I'm slower than 2-3 hours per room, and it's going to take me probably 2 weeks to get this done.


 
Hell, if you only charge $20 per hour and it will take you two weeks then charge $1600.00.

This guy has no overhead or a business. He's just another schmoe picking up a brush and some paint at HD to make a buck.


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

Schmoe? You don't even know me. I have all the required permits, for the town I'm working in. I paint when I come across jobs. I just asked for some estimate help. C'mon. Is there really a need to be a douche bag about it?



> here is a point of reference all the franchises like five star painting charge appox. 2.15 a square foot for average room with one window and one door so for a 10 x 15 would cost $325 for the room or 5800 for your project, I would charge a little less me personally I would charge around $4500 plus paint costs.


Thanks. I was wondering what people charged per square foot. I might just do that instead.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Josey nailed it.
> 
> Your current hourly rate will be a topic for another thread.........


I'm starting to think he knows a few things.


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> I'm starting to think he knows a few things.


A few things, yes. I just came here to see how the pro's would handle it. By the square foot, by the hour, etc. Any ideas I could get, really. I charge 20 an hour for small jobs, because these are people I know, and see pretty regularly. They are old, and couldn't afford anything else. 

On the flip side, I don't know the people that own this beach house. I wanted to estimate it like the veterans would. That's all.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Yes a Schmoe charges only $20 per hour. Or a lowballer, hack, ect. You choose.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

tonytwotime said:


> A few things, yes. I just came here to see how the pro's would handle it. By the square foot, by the hour, etc. Any ideas I could get, really. I charge 20 an hour for small jobs, because these are people I know, and see pretty regularly. They are old, and couldn't afford anything else.
> 
> On the flip side, I don't know the people that own this beach house. I wanted to estimate it like the veterans would. That's all.


Tony, pricing questions are usually frowned on here because of this very type of issue. What a professional would charge is not the same as what you would charge. Do you really have a business or are you "just doing this on the side"?



> You don't even know me. I have all the required permits, for the town I'm working in. I paint when I come across jobs.


This leads me to believe you are not a professional painter, which this forum is intended for. I'd suggest you spend some time reading through the archives here, especially in the business section.


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

tonytwotime said:


> Schmoe? You don't even know me. I have all the required permits, for the town I'm working in. I paint when I come across jobs. I just asked for some estimate help. C'mon. Is there really a need to be a douche bag about it?
> 
> Thanks. I was wondering what people charged per square foot. I might just do that instead.


 You're not gonna get any help on here with pricing. 20$ an hr is a little low even for my area. My dad worked all through the 90's at 25 an hr and was completely legit. He paid taxes on every job and had insurance. He paid 500 or 600$ a month for years for a family health plan. I don't know how he did it. We always had what we needed but nothing exttravagant. There are some highend companies on here that have multiple crews and a lot of overhead and would probably call my dad or any one man show owner operater a lowballer. My dad had 5 employees when he was younger and paid workers comp on me when I worked for him. A lot of "businessmen" on here have large companies with estimators, salesmen, etc. and have skyhigh labor rates to go along with it. Guys talk about marking up paint 60%. I don't know how they do it when the paint is too damn expensive so as it is.I think my dad always had work because he delivered quality at an affordable market price. Everyone has to do what they do to provide for their family. The problem is the market is flooded with "new" tradesmen who lost jobs in factories etc. There are ads galore in my area on Craigslist from many quality respectable painters who just don't have the work. Nobody in America wants to see the labor rate go down but I think we are going to see more and more of it and it has little to do with "illegals". People are buying online instead of local and "always" want the lowest price without sacrifice of service.


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> Yes a Schmoe charges only $20 per hour. Or a lowballer, hack, ect. You choose.


Thanks for the advice. _HUGE_ help. Really appreciate it........


----------



## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

shamrockbear said:


> Here is a point of reference all the franchises like five star painting charge appox. 2.15 a square foot
> G


Didn't know he's painting the floor


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> Thanks for the advice. _HUGE_ help. Really appreciate it........


Advice: Tell the home owners to hire a professional painting contracting company.

Advice #2: You should go get a job from that professional painting contracting company.


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

You carrying proper insurance? (can you tell me what 'proper' insurance means?)

Actually Tony by golly you've gotten some solid advice here....lucky you its spring! Ask this middle of winter.....:whistling2:


----------



## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

RCP said:


> Tony, pricing questions are usually frowned on here because of this very type of issue. What a professional would charge is not the same as what you would charge. Do you really have a business or are you "just doing this on the side"?
> 
> 
> 
> This leads me to believe you are not a professional painter, which this forum is intended for. I'd suggest you spend some time reading through the archives here, especially in the business section.


 
I know the feeling of wanting your question answered straight up, but I agree, search the archives. I love this site and spend lots of time on here educating myself. Read "So you wanna start a painting business" and other stickies here. There's already a lot of great information on here about pricing. Good luck! :thumbsup:


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

daArch said:


> Tony,
> 
> You say you like to receive $20/hr for your services (at this point I won't get into the ability of running a legit business charging that rate, but that's yours, the gov't, insurance co's, and your customers' issue)
> 
> ...



Wow...should have stopped here. DaArch must have found some remnants at the bottom of those land fill bottles and is in a good mood. :jester::thumbup:


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> Actually Tony by golly you've gotten some solid advice here


I agree. I never said I didn't, and thanked people for helping. Thanks again to everyone who provided useful information.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> I agree. I never said I didn't, and thanked people for helping. Thanks again to everyone who provided useful information.


Your welcome!


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> Schmoe? You don't even know me. I have all the required permits, for the town I'm working in. I paint when I come across jobs. I just asked for some estimate help. C'mon. Is there really a need to be a douche bag about it?
> 
> Thanks. I was wondering what people charged per square foot. I might just do that instead.


For crying out loud, I thought we excommunicated all the SF talkers already! 

Listen tonytwo time, do NOT take anybody's advice when it comes to SF pricing, it's simply...WRONG.

Here's a little something I wrote years ago...please remember it, frame it if you need to...but DO try to understand it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Floor Area Square Foot prices – Busted

I wish I had a buck for the many times I’ve seen the question asked, “How much do you charge per square foot of floor area?” I’ve been asked this question personally and have seen it on numerous painter forums, for years.

Over and over again, I’d chime in that we don’t paint floors, therefore we don’t charge by the square foot floor area.

Let me point out the square foot question is almost always asked when dealing with projects in the residential sector and rarely asked of painting contractors in the commercial sector. Why? Because most commercial companies don’t believe in fairy tales.

To anyone who has bid to owners or General Contractors, the question is a common one. Unfortunately, the question has no connection to reality, whatsoever.

One sad thing about this pricing practice is that it too often becomes adopted by the smaller painter. The smaller painter is told that he can have the job if he can do it for “a buck a square foot”, floor area and what happens? The painter ends up taking on the job and wonders why he lost his shirt!

Even sadder is the fact that most painters out there have no clue what their costs are and too often assume that the GC does… and takes on losing projects based on that premise. Also, they use this so called “buck a square foot” as a magical number, as if it can be applied to all types of projects.

It just isn’t so and I’m going to prove it right now.

Numbers don't add up using the SF floor area method, period.

In the exercise below, we’re going to assume that sheetrock walls and ceilings (surface area) cost a painter .592 per square foot to paint.

Ok, so we have a 12 x 15 room that has 180 SF of ceiling and 432 SF of wall at 8' high. You'll do this for an average of $362.50. Divide the $362.50 by total wall and ceiling area of 612 SF and we get .592 per SF of sheetrock. Floorarea price is $362.50 divided by 180 SF = $2.01 per SF floorarea.

You want to use SF floorarea prices though, right?

Change the room size to 14 x 18

We now have a 14 x 18 room that has 252 SF of ceiling area and 512 SF of wall at 8' high. Taking your price of .592 per SF of sheetrock and multiplying it by 764 SF (wall and ceiling area), we come up with a total of $452.29. If we divide $452.29 by 252 SF floorarea, we come up with $1.79 per SF floorarea.

Change the room size to 8 x 6

We now have a 8 x 6 room that has 48 sf of ceiling area and 224 SF of wall at 8' high. Taking your price of .592 per SF of sheetrock and multiplying it by 272 sf (wall and ceiling area), we come up with a total of $161.02. If we divide $161.02 by 48 SF floorarea, we come up with $3.35 per SF floorarea.

Now take a good look at our rooms..

12 x 15 room = $2.01 PSF floorarea.
14 x 18 room = $1.79 PSF floorarea.
8 x 6 room = $3.35 PSF floorarea.

Tell me what the relationship between floorarea and a paint job is?

There is no relationship...and that is why we don't price PSF floorarea.


Now...


Take the advice of the guys who are telling you the truth, either seriously or sarcastically...and don't get offended. Sometimes the truth hurts but in the end, I guess what matters is that we LEARN the truth.


The truth is that you cannot run a business by charging $20 an hour. You need to learn a few things about business to realize this perhaps.


I would be happy to help you a bit, just write me at [email protected] I'll help you get your numbers in order so that your first big job isn't your last.

If you prefer to go it alone, remember this...

Don't look at that job as 2,700 sf of job...look at it as so many rooms.
Start by taking one room and figure out how long it will take you and how much paint it will take also. You said that you are a painter so this shouldn't be too hard for one room, right?

Well, after you come up with a good price for that one room, do the same for all the rest of the rooms.

You've heard the old saying, "how do we eat an elephant? One bite at a time."?

Simply look at this job as a bunch of little jobs...

Good luck...


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> Your welcome!


You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

tonytwotime said:


> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


me too, I have been scratching my head on this for quite sometime now.

Pat


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

tonytwotime said:


> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


We do more than tolerate him, we love and adore him!


(most of us anyways)


I think you have your answers, and I am inclined to to close this thread before it gets ugly.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


 
Thanks for the new Sig! :thumbsup:


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

You're right. I have everything I need. Thanks.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

RCP said:


> We do more than tolerate him, we love and adore him!
> 
> 
> (most of us anyways)
> ...


Instead of closing ANOTHER thread, why don't you tell the guys to lay off a bit so that we can actually teach a few things. This isn't a club for know-it-alls, it's a bunch of forums that are SUPPOSED to be helpful.

Don't lose sight of why we're all here. I certainly am not here to watch a third world country war...plenty of that on TV.


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> Thanks for the new Sig! :thumbsup:


Have fun with it you clownshoe!


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


Actually Tony you may look back at this thread in 6 months and realize that my advice was the best you ever could of received. The truth hurts and hopefully you learn quickly before your broke.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Perhaps we can also help you to come up with a name for your company as well!


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

tonytwotime said:


> Have fun with it you clownshoe!



Sweet, looking for a good sig, thanks :thumbsup:

Pat


----------



## tonytwotime (Apr 17, 2011)

> Instead of closing ANOTHER thread, why don't you tell the guys to lay off a bit so that we can actually teach a few things. This isn't a club for know-it-alls, it's a bunch of foums that are SUPPOSED to be helpful.


Don't worry about it dude. I haven't been a member here a full day, and I'm already done with this forum. I had no idea I was going to be attacked, for asking a few questions. Was just looking for some help, from professionals. Ridiculous.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> Have fun with it you clownshoe!


Tony,
Take the higher road and don't answer the wisecracks because (and this is one of those odd things in life) when you fight back YOU end up looking like the bad guy.

I've been on painter forums for 13 years and man! We done it all!


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

tonytwotime said:


> Don't worry about it dude. I haven't been a member here a full day, and I'm already done with this forum. I had no idea I was going to be attacked, for asking a few questions. Was just looking for some help, from professionals. Ridiculous.


Well, first off, I'm Harry...and second, if you take off, you'll NEVER learn.
Suck it up, class is in session...


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

tonytwotime said:


> Don't worry about it dude. I haven't been a member here a full day, and I'm already done with this forum. I had no idea I was going to be attacked, for asking a few questions. Was just looking for some help, from professionals. Ridiculous.


 Tony, this a good forum and I can say I have learned a few things about products and application. If you would have spent time lurking with the search button like I did, you would have realized price questions get a beatdown on here. There are a holes on any forum who like to flex thier keyboard muscles. It is easy for them to say when nobody is in front of them waiting to bash in thier teeth. It still is a great place to learn some new tricks and find out what works and what doesn't.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> It is easy for them to say when nobody is in front of them waiting to bash in thier teeth.



Hahaha...now THAT is priceless!


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Tony, this a good forum and I can say I have learned a few things about products and application. If you would have spent time lurking with the search button like I did, you would have realized price questions get a beatdown on here. There are a holes on any forum who like to flex thier keyboard muscles. It is easy for them to say when nobody is in front of them waiting to bash in thier teeth. It still is a great place to learn some new tricks and find out what works and what doesn't.


Agreed...And the funny thing about this forum is that the a-holes get support from their moderator buddies who threaten to close threads.:yes:


----------



## shamrockbear (Sep 22, 2010)

Well I believe square footage for normal repaint is reasonable to find a starting point, basic prep work is given in all jobs obviously when there is more prep work and situations that you can see more work is required you would charge more that only makes sense. And that's bull if you think that even pros know exactly what to charge I can probably count on 2 hands the pro estimators for large national companies that have it down to a good science and that's because they work nonstop and other costs ect. Also variables like what your market can bear if you have setup customers they will pay what ever you tell them. Customers that are shopping most never take the highest bid unless they want that premium service and trust me you will work hard. Many take affordable costs so here if I can charge 500 a room doesn't mean in Timbuktu you can charge 500 obviously higher income areas can afford higher pricing, most people in smaller communities don't even hire painters they do the work themselves tighter budgets ect. So yes I think square footage is reasonable to figure with adjustments if you high ceilings lots of windows and door frames duh yes you charge more. So sorry I'll stick to my square footage answer and there is a reason those franchise painting companies gross millions among other reasons I won't get into here. Now charging per hour at a low price like that I would rather work at walmart it would be about the same. So know your worth and stick to your guns yes I'll agree it was a schmoe move but you will learn what to charge. My 2 cents...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

The truth = a-hole.

If you guys are this sensitive over a paint forum I cant imagine how you run a business in the real world.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

tonytwotime said:


> Don't worry about it dude. I haven't been a member here a full day, and I'm already done with this forum. I had no idea I was going to be attacked, for asking a few questions. Was just looking for some help, from professionals. Ridiculous.


I know what your saying. It's basically a 5 - 7 man (1 woman) crew that dominates / bullies this forum. To have a free / open discussion on here is a pipe dream. Sorry - you are gonna leave.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

shamrockbear said:


> Well I believe square footage for normal repaint is reasonable to find a starting point, basic prep work is given in all jobs obviously when there is more prep work and situations that you can see more work is required you would charge more that only makes sense. And that's bull if you think that even pros know exactly what to charge I can probably count on 2 hands the pro estimators for large national companies that have it down to a good science and that's because they work nonstop and other costs ect. Also variables like what your market can bear if you have setup customers they will pay what ever you tell them. Customers that are shopping most never take the highest bid unless they want that premium service and trust me you will work hard. Many take affordable costs so here if I can charge 500 a room doesn't mean in Timbuktu you can charge 500 obviously higher income areas can afford higher pricing, most people in smaller communities don't even hire painters they do the work themselves tighter budgets ect. So yes I think square footage is reasonable to figure with adjustments if you high ceilings lots of windows and door frames duh yes you charge more. So sorry I'll stick to my square footage answer and there is a reason those franchise painting companies gross millions among other reasons I won't get into here. Now charging per hour at a low price like that I would rather work at walmart it would be about the same. So know your worth and stick to your guns yes I'll agree it was a schmoe move but you will learn what to charge. My 2 cents...


If you believe in SF floor area numbers, you believe in fairy tales.

You don't take a WRONG number then ADJUST it to try to come up with a GOOD number.

And as far as some of those franchises...who's making the money??? YOU???

Listen, I just had a student form the Carolinas who lost a million dollar franchise (3 territories).

He told me that they charge for exterior lintels by the opening.
Well, the job we were working on had 3 foot, 4 foot, 5 foot and 6 foot openings. They just counted openings and priced them all the same!

Well, if a 3 foot lintel took so much time and so much paint (equaling so much money), it's OBVIOUS that a 6 foot lintel COULDN'T be the same price!

Oh...and in the last 8 months, I've had 4 students who owned franchises from large companies and they all needed help badly...

And no, it doesn't all come out in the wash...


----------



## ligboozer (Oct 13, 2009)

tonytwotime said:


> You supplied zero help, concerning the topic of the thread. I'm surprised they tolerate you here.


 
He trys hard and once he has some experience under his belt I am sure NEPS will be able to contribute to this forum.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> The truth = a-hole.
> 
> If you guys are this sensitive over a paint forum I cant imagine how you run a business in the real world.


Yeah but it's just not cool to treat a new person like that...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Harry said:


> Yeah but it's just not cool to treat a new person like that...


Like how? How was I wrong?

The OP is not a painting contractor and is looking for pricing info. Period.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I think this thread is a real good example why these pricing threads get closed with in a few posts. 

Pat


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> I think this thread is a real good example why these pricing threads get closed with in a few posts.
> 
> Pat


Care to give more detail?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Like how? How was I wrong?
> 
> The OP is not a painting contractor and is looking for pricing info. Peri


 ......


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I knew it. I knew there was a clique.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

KLaw said:


> Care to give more detail?


No

Pat


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> No
> 
> Pat


Good call


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I think I should be banned to the Zone for eternity.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> I knew it. I knew there was a clique.


 
Duh - my lil genious man:
work, neps, verm, rcp, wolf, Not a bad thing but ...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Duh - my lil genious man:
> work, neps, verm, rcp, wolf, Not a bad thing but ...


When there is a wrong to right, mighty mouse will join the fight...

Just like they can't ban you for being dopey dougal, they can't ban the rest of us for being friends. Fair is fair, right? - dude


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> No
> 
> Pat


 
Way to back up your stuff - big boy:no:


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

KLaw said:


> Way to back up your stuff - big boy:no:


you're nothing but a clownshoe

Pat


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Leave Kev alone! He's just suckin back some cold ones and bumpin some gums.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The mods should all be fired. I say that at the risk of a ban. :whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

keV is the only hetero adult I know who uses the phrase "big boy" much. Weird. Now that keV has no franchise firepower he's becoming like a weird little groupie.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> When there is a wrong to right, mighty mouse will join the fight...
> 
> Just like they can't ban you for being dopey dougal, they can't ban the rest of us for being friends. Fair is fair, right? - dude


Dude - you actually entertain me. What year are you from? You kinda remind me of a dude with pork chop side burns - strutting around thinking it's cool. I'm guessing you were in high school around the early '70's time frame. Am I right? Dopey dougal? Come on Simple Simon:yes:


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do agree that some of our regulars are too harsh on guys who ask questions like these. I will even name some names: Vermont and NEPS, because they are big boys and can handle it.

Questions like these frustrate some of the regulars because it happens so often and those who ask the questions sometimes show such a lack of understanding of basic business accounting that they are almost impossible to help. We often see people refuse to listen and take the basic business advice, so when the same questions pop up over and over, they are often met with a short, somewhat sarcastic reply.

Also, since i named names, i will say that neps and vermont have gone through periods of near brilliance over the years and know what they are doing and what they are talking about.

As a side note, it is usually false to assume the larger companies have higher overhead than the sole operator. It is almost always the other way around. The difference is that the larger companies are correctly identifying overhead and recovering it. No one man crew has less than $10/hr in overhead costs. They just do not realize it.


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Dammm... I work to much to be part of the clique. The only thing I see when I read this stuff is KLaw raging against the machine..... 

In response to the OP, it is hard to give ou a ballpark number because we have no idea what rate you can produce work at, what your work ethic is, what you consider to be a "quality" job. It is apples and oranges to figure out a number and suggest it to you. Some here couldnt afford to bid a job at less than 50 bucks an hour per man because they would never make a profit. 

So many times people are asking for a "magic" number and it is hard to hear by painters that take pride in doing this work day in and day out, year after year. So many hacks and deadbeats believe they can make a living on something that pros take very seriously. I am sure the attacks weren't personal, but it becomes an automatic response to bash a poster for asking what seems like rookie questions. 

Sorry for the razzing, but we truly do care about being pros in our field. 


We had a hellova lot of hard knocks getting to be more successful businesses, it is kinda the dues you are gonna have to endure as well if you are going to be successful in this trade.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

tonytwotime said:


> Hi everyone. I was wondering if I might be able to get some advice on an estimate. First off, I'm used to doing small jobs. Mostly decks, and porches, and outdoor furniture. Also, for those jobs, I work by the hour, @ $20.00 an hr. I've never actually given an upfront estimate for a paint job.
> 
> I was approached with a 3 bedroom, 2 full bath, 2 half-bath house, to put a bid on. 4 closets, 7 doors, and 9 windows. Everything needs to be done, including ceilings, and trim. It is currently painted contractors white. They want the ceilings one color, the walls and doors a second color, and the trim a third color. Lots of lighting fixtures, and wall outlets. It's about 2,700 sq ft. total.
> 
> ...





Nathan said:


> Nothing has changed but let me state again. This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades. That can be a painting contractor, a paint manufacture, a paint retail store owner, etc... The key is that you do this for a living and it's not a side job or something your doing for yourself.


This alone is enough for me to close and ban. But it seems there are members that feel we should give Tony a chance, I'll move the offtopic posts and let Harry have the floor. Fair enough?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I do agree that some of our regulars are too harsh on guys who ask questions like these. I will even name some names: Vermont and NEPS, because they are big boys and can handle it.
> 
> Questions like these frustrate some of the regulars because it happens so often and those who ask the questions sometimes show such a lack of understanding of basic business accounting that they are almost impossible to help. We often see people refuse to listen and taken the basic business advive, so when the same questions pop up over and over, they are often met with a short, somewhat sarcastic reply.
> 
> ...


It would be safe to say that most of the regular contributors take as much nonsense as they dish out. It goes with the territory. Now just shut up and answer my questions. :jester:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

That pretty much sums it up Dean.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Dammm... I work to much to be part of the clique. The only thing I see when I read this stuff is KLaw raging against the machine.....
> 
> In response to the OP, it is hard to give ou a ballpark number because we have no idea what rate you can produce work at, what your work ethic is, what you consider to be a "quality" job. It is apples and oranges to figure out a number and suggest it to you. Some here couldnt afford to bid a job at less than 50 bucks an hour per man because they would never make a profit.
> 
> ...


Word. :yes:


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Interesting responses from the non - clique.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Interesting responses from the non - clique.


Have you considered the possibility that the non clique is pretty much you?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Have you considered the possibility that the non clique is pretty much you?


Mr. Pork Chop (side burns) - I have considered that. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm thinking you need to keep working on that el camino :jester:


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

RCP said:


> This alone is enough for me to close and ban. But it seems there are members that feel we should give Tony a chance, I'll move the offtopic posts and let Harry have the floor. Fair enough?


Not exactly...He could have worked for someone for years and is now striking out on his own...This qualifies as someone working fulltime in the painting industry...Maybe he's not the greatest marketer right now and needs to keep food on the table to keep going...If that means 20 bucks an hour who are we to judge him?...Don't be so closed minded.:notworthy:


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Im pretty sure he cant charge $120 per hr. Some guys take 3 days to do what another would do in a day.

We cant tell tony to charge $60 pr hr because that could price him right out of bids for the guy charging $120

Painter #1 charges $120 per hour. He completes the job in 4 hours for $480
Painter #2 charges $60 per hour. He completes the job in 8 hours for $480
Painter #3 charges $20 per hour. He completes the job in 24 hours for $480

Even if painter #3 adds $10 per hour for overhead bringing him to $30 = $720

I like using real life examples :whistling2:


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Not exactly...He could have worked for someone for years and is now striking out on his own...This qualifies as someone working fulltime in the painting industry...Maybe he's not the greatest marketer right now and needs to keep food on the table to keep going...If that means 20 bucks an hour who are we to judge him?...Don't be so closed minded.:notworthy:


 
You gotta understand - he is not part of the crew:jester:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I bet painter 1 has higher profit margins. All I'm really interested in.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> Not exactly...He could have worked for someone for years and is now striking out on his own...This qualifies as someone working fulltime in the painting industry...Maybe he's not the greatest marketer right now and needs to keep food on the table to keep going...If that means 20 bucks an hour who are we to judge him?...Don't be so closed minded.:notworthy:





tonytwotime said:


> I paint when I come across jobs.


Need more Josey? This guy is a handy man who is looking for pricing info on painting.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Need more Josey? This guy is a handy man who is looking for pricing info on painting.


LMAO:thumbup:Thanks for the entertainment:thumbsup:


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I bet painter 1 has higher profit margins. All I'm really interested in.


Even on those small jobs like changing wall colors on a repaint in 2 bedrooms and a bath can take 3 days for guys not knowing what they are doing. Hmm that paint didnt cover... see you tomorrow to apply another coat.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Im pretty sure he cant charge $120 per hr. Some guys take 3 days to do what another would do in a day.
> 
> We cant tell tony to charge $60 pr hr because that could price him right out of bids for the guy charging $120
> 
> ...


 
He could also really need the work and will take the $20/hr....Obviously you can't sustain a business on that but when one has 2-3-4-5 jobs to bid on in a day you can ask for much more when the pressure is off......At times one might need to take one step back to take 3 steps forward...Many businesses operate in the red in the beginning.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Like how? How was I wrong?
> 
> The OP is not a painting contractor and is looking for pricing info. Period.


Where is it alright to treat people as this guy was treated???
It may be "standard protocol" for this site to chastise someone when he's assumed to be a non-painter but who the hell said it was alright???

Even if the guy was looking for pricing...so what!

It seems to me that all you guys who bitch about the lowballers should be tickled pink to help a so called lowballer with his numbers...eliminating him from your "pool" of bums!

You guys remind me of Marlon Brando in the movie, "The Wild One"

*Mildred*: What're you rebelling against, Johnny? 
*Johnny*: Whaddya got?


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Im pretty sure he cant charge $120 per hr. Some guys take 3 days to do what another would do in a day.
> 
> We cant tell tony to charge $60 pr hr because that could price him right out of bids for the guy charging $120
> 
> ...


 Considering the job was a repaint using a brush/roller, what are#1,2,and 3 doing differently to account for the time differnce.
I find it hard to believe that one painter could paint the same thing as another the same way in half the time, given the fact they both have experience and are young and able with skills. Now if it were a large amount of NC and one was spraying vs rolling I could see that. I used to get frustrated with my dad cause he would lollygag with his coffee and his eyes were going but he was 70 yrs old. I'd consider myself as fast as any painter. I can't see another painter doing the same job as me in half the time.I could see a novice taking 3x as long though.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

DeanV said:


> As a side note, it is usually false to assume the larger companies have higher overhead than the sole operator. It is almost always the other way around.


Not really true...

A smaller company usually has a higher overhead PERCENTAGE...


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Harry,

Consider the fact that this forum, as stated by its purpose, is for full time professionals in a painting related field.

Please note "full time professionals"

Also please consider that many times noobs and less experienced apprentice level "painters" ask questions about running a business and they most usually get straight forward honest answers.

I have noticed that when people are up front about their level of "expertise" they are treated fairly and with all due respect.

I also noticed that posers get ridiculed, fakers get trounced, wannabes get flattened. 

Also, we all know that we SHOULDN'T give another contractor hard numbers for an estimate, that's just wrong considering all the variables involved. "Give a man a number, and he can estimate one job. Teach him how to know his numbers, and he can estimate for life" or something like that.

Personally I think as a whole we do a good job of giving the serious but inexperienced PROFESSIONAL painter some solid guidance on how to grow into this business.

Yes, Chris, Scott, myself, and others can be a little rough, but it's called tough love. I didn't raise my son giving him his life on a silver platter, and he's turning out ok. I'm a professional offering guidance, not an enabler of bad business. 

And you also offer great advice that people need to consider.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry

Would you consider opening tpn back up as a resource for those who don't like it here?


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I thought he got a pretty fair shake on the first page....things derailed at "clownshoe".


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

If he didn't mention he charges 20 an hour this post would have been closed before it hit 8 not 88..just sayin'


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Considering the job was a repaint using a brush/roller, what are#1,2,and 3 doing differently to account for the time differnce.
> I find it hard to believe that one painter could paint the same thing as another the same way in half the time, given the fact they both have experience and are young and able with skills. Now if it were a large amount of NC and one was spraying vs rolling I could see that. I used to get frustrated with my dad cause he would lollygag with his coffee and his eyes were going but he was 70 yrs old. I'd consider myself as fast as any painter. I can't see another painter doing the same job as me in half the time.I could see a novice taking 3x as long though.


Daniel I dont want to get into that in this thread. I see it all the time tho. Just as you find it hard to believe... so do I.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

daArch said:


> Harry,
> 
> Consider the fact that this forum, as stated by its purpose, is for full time professionals in a painting related field.
> 
> ...


Bill,
The bottom line is that this type of thinking is contributing to keeping the lowballers, lowballers. I doubt you'll post anything that will enlighten me as far as that is concerned.

BTW, that guy WAS upfront, he stated that this would be his first proposal. However, he never stated that he wasn't a pro painter. He may have been working for others.

You can say and do what you want but in the end, don't go bitchin' about the "one who got away".

I don't see how the treatment of that guy contributed to helping get one more off the streets 

BTW... I'm done with presenting my thoughts and do appreciate the opposite side's thoughts...even if they're wrong, HAHA


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Harry said:


> BTW... I'm done with presenting my thoughts and do appreciate the opposite side's thoughts...even if they're wrong, HAHA


Reminds me of what Steven Tyler said to Randy Jackson on Idol about a month ago,

"I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong"
:thumbup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave...


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Wow. I go and spend some time with the wife and miss all the fun......


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

daArch said:


> Reminds me of what Steven Tyler said to Randy Jackson on Idol about a month ago,
> 
> "I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong"
> :thumbup:


Should snag that for a sig!


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> Would you consider opening tpn back up as a resource for those who don't like it here?


Wise azz question and even your RCP thanked ya for that one...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Harry
> 
> Would you consider opening tpn back up as a resource for those who don't like it here?


That one may strike a nerve.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

daArch said:


> Reminds me of what Steven Tyler said to Randy Jackson on Idol about a month ago,
> 
> "I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong"
> :thumbup:


Yeah, it's good that you keep thinking like that...keeps the old mind active lol


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Wise azz question and even your RCP thanked ya for that one...


Actually, it was a serious question. You seem like a very kind, knowledgable man who wants to help those in need. Back it up. You haven't really brought it here, it must all be over there. Open er up. You have a following.

(we get to keep Basco)


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> That one may strike a nerve.


Strike a neRve nothing. I think Vermontpainter is a bit of an instigator perhaps.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> (we get to keep Basco)


I'm now picturing picking teams for dodge ball in grammer school. A line of little painters, who's going to be the last one to be picked?


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Actually, it was a serious question. You seem like a very kind, knowledgable man who wants to help those in need. Back it up. You haven't really brought it here, it must all be over there. Open er up. You have a following.
> 
> (we get to keep Basco)


I haven't brought WHAT here?
Back WHAT up?
I have over 650 posts and last time I checked MOST of them contain good stuff.

Listen, I spent 8 years and thousands of hours and dollars on my site that was a free site. I spent 5 years before that on other sites. I figure if I was gonna take some more abuse, it ought to be for free 

I've posted my share and then some...


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Wow. I go and spend some time with the wife and miss all the fun......


Lets not let that happen again... mkay?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> I haven't brought WHAT here?
> Back WHAT up?
> I have over 650 posts and last time I checked MOST of them contain good stuff.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you have. Ive seen a couple of good copy pastes you've laid down here that were very good, I think you mentioned they were written years ago. Not questioning your relevance here on pt at all. I just thought there'd be less hat and more cattle. It's all good though. Forums are supposed to be fun. Pt is nothing if not fun. We put the fun in disfunction. Lol


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Wow. I go and spend some time with the wife and miss all the fun......



And you'd better get your shots in quick. It's Sunday nite and we "instigators" here on the east coast are nearing our witching hour. 


You won't have us to kick around anymore because, gentlemen, this may be my last post tonight.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I'm sure you have. Ive seen a couple of good copy pastes you've laid down here that were very good, I think you mentioned they were written years ago. Not questioning your relevance here on pt at all. I just thought there'd be less hat and more cattle. It's all good though. Forums are supposed to be fun. Pt is nothing if not fun. We put the fun in disfunction. Lol


You must be drinking. 
YOU personally asked me to come here to post!
I cut and pasted something that comes up often, it would be ridiculous to re-write, eh?

Go ahead and read all my posts...guarantee that I have donated plenty.
You are a trouble maker...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Sticky?


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Sticky?


I just might..... :whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> You must be drinking.
> YOU personally asked me to come here to post!
> I cut and pasted something that comes up often, it would be ridiculous to re-write, eh?
> 
> ...


Not sure in what format I asked you to come here and post. I think that when you came here, I was happy to see you join and hoped you would be into engaging business discussion. I continue to hope that.

You don't have to get mad and start name calling.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> Interesting responses from the non - clique.


With over 3100 posts, don't you think you would be part of it if there was one?


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Not sure in what format I asked you to come here and post. I think that when you came here, I was happy to see you join and hoped you would be into engaging business discussion. I continue to hope that.
> 
> You don't have to get mad and start name calling.


YOU wrote me not long ago and suggested I come here to post more...who you kidding.

And for you to bring up TPN and insinuate that all my time here adds up to little more than some cut and pastes isn't cool.

If that isn't being a trouble maker than I don't know what is...


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Wow, where is PWG with his train wreck pic!
Really guys, we have all been around long enough and know each other well enough to push buttons, but it is getting carried away.
Let's not get personal, or you can take it to pms.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Harry said:


> YOU wrote me not long ago and suggested I come here to post more...who you kidding.
> 
> And for you to bring up TPN and insinuate that all my time here adds up to little more than some cut and pastes isn't cool.
> 
> If that isn't being a trouble maker than I don't know what is...


For someone that has been on forums for so long you sure get sensitive about stuff.

Pat


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> YOU wrote me not long ago and suggested I come here to post more...who you kidding.
> 
> And for you to bring up TPN and insinuate that all my time here adds up to little more than some cut and pastes isn't cool.
> 
> If that isn't being a trouble maker than I don't know what is...


I don't think I would have done that to you, Harry. I don't know how I would have ever contacted you unless it was through a pm here. But you are here, and that's what matters. 

You are reading things into my posts that are not there. I do grab a stir stick every time I come in here, just in case I need it, but I actually respect you and your lifetime commitment to this trade.

You dish it out, you take it. Just like the rest of us.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

RCP said:


> Wow, where is PWG with his train wreck pic!
> Really guys, we have all been around long enough and know each other well enough to push buttons, but it is getting carried away.
> Let's not get personal, or you can take it to pms.


Delete everything after the first page in the morning?


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> For someone that has been on forums for so long you sure get sensitive about stuff.
> 
> Pat


Well if you posted anything of value, you'd know how it was, LOL

Just kidding...everything is cool...


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Harry said:


> Well if you posted anything of value, you'd know how it was, LOL


I thought calling kev a clownshoe was a value, I guess not :no: Back to the drawing board for me..

Pat


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I don't think I would have done that to you, Harry. I don't know how I would have ever contacted you unless it was through a pm here. But you are here, and that's what matters.
> 
> You are reading things into my posts that are not there. I do grab a stir stick every time I come in here, just in case I need it, but I actually respect you and your lifetime commitment to this trade.
> 
> You dish it out, you take it. Just like the rest of us.


Your PM cleared it up some...you suggest that I give the farm away, rather than tidbits of information.

I hardly consider that to be logical, based on 13 years on forums.

I used to fight with Richard Kaller and all along he was right. People (including me) kept harping on him to buy a banner if he was going to advertise his company. He said what the truth is...that it would be a complete waste of money...nobody would pay for his network fees...they just wanted free siht.

I'm fine with that and give what I can, based on that ideal...

We're cool...thanks...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Wow, where is PWG with his train wreck pic!
> Really guys, we have all been around long enough and know each other well enough to push buttons, but it is getting carried away.
> Let's not get personal, or you can take it to pms.


Harry and I are tearing each other new a holes via pm in between posts. My keyboard is gonna overheat.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Harry said:


> Your PM cleared it up some...you suggest that I give the farm away, rather than tidbits of information.
> 
> I hardly consider that to be logical, based on 13 years on forums.
> 
> ...


Nope it's not about the farm. That's all yours. I just thought you missed a teachable moment with the op because you were more interested in yelling at neps for not teaching him. :jester:


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

$20 Per hour?  My overhead alone would eat up most of that. :whistling2: Might as well just go back out and get a regular job. :yes: Im just going to take a shot in the dark and say you are not licensed, have no insurance and dont pay taxes?  Im more than happy to pass along advice to someone new, but what you are doing is not fair to the* LEGITIMATE *Painting contractors. I also understand trying to fulfil a dream and have your own business, but do it right. My business is new also, (one year this month) but I been licensened, bonded and insured from day one. And I DO pay taxes.


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Oh wow, I didnt even notice this was 7 pages! LMAO I know Im not scrolling through all that.


----------



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Nope it's not about the farm. That's all yours. I just thought you missed a teachable moment with the op because you were more interested in yelling at neps for not teaching him. :jester:


Where was the missed opportunity???
Go read the posts again, I think I was clear that I was willing to help.
Missed moment? I did teach him with that "old cut and pasted" SF article. :thumbup:


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Woodland said:


> Oh wow, I didnt even notice this was 7 pages! LMAO I know Im not scrolling through all that.


...we're at the dim lights slowing dancing part.....


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> ...we're at the dim lights slowing dancing part.....


LOL :thumbsup:


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

The bartender just made last call...

Somebody wake up Bill and tell him its time to go.


----------



## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:


PressurePros said:


> The bartender just made last call...
> 
> Somebody wake up Bill and tell him its time to go.


----------



## luxurypainting (Apr 15, 2011)

It sounds like you are just starting out with bigger jobs at this point. Maybe if your not very busy and want to use this has a good refferance than you charge low. for example in the winter we can get slow so We will do a $100 a room special 1 coat on walls, 1 coat on ceilings about a 120 sq. ft room. or they can get 2 coats on the walls no ceiling, no wall repair, not trim. And close to the same color. For example we did a room at the end of last month. One of the rooms was a 12x14 they wanted walls and ceilings so it ended up being $175 plus a half bath very small $150 plus materials. The cost of the paint retail was $74 our cost $43. We walked out with about $350 for about 7 hours about $55 an hour. Not bad during the middle of winter. I wont do this special during the summer, but when we first started out we did it to gain references and we do it if we get slow to generate work-mostly in winter.


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

luxurypainting said:


> It sounds like you are just starting out with bigger jobs at this point. Maybe if your not very busy and want to use this has a good refferance than you charge low. for example in the winter we can get slow so We will do a $100 a room special 1 coat on walls, 1 coat on ceilings about a 120 sq. ft room. or they can get 2 coats on the walls no ceiling, no wall repair, not trim. And close to the same color. For example we did a room at the end of last month. One of the rooms was a 12x14 they wanted walls and ceilings so it ended up being $175 plus a half bath very small $150 plus materials. The cost of the paint retail was $74 our cost $43. We walked out with about $350 for about 7 hours about $55 an hour. Not bad during the middle of winter. I wont do this special during the summer, but when we first started out we did it to gain references and we do it if we get slow to generate work-mostly in winter.



Throwing out one coat wonders is a great way to NOT be called Luxury Painting.... IMO:whistling2:


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> The bartender just made last call...
> 
> Somebody wake up Bill and tell him its time to go.




I'm awake, I'm awake. 

Sheeet, I missed last call again. 

Hell, it's 9:00 AM and I've already been to the job - and walked off :thumbup: 

(They were NOT ready for me. I wasn't about to play Prima Donna Asswipe Paperhanger and tell the carpenters that this room needs cleaning out, that room needs all their tools and stock moved, OH and I need electricity and water . . . . in half an hour.) 

So what was I going to do? Watch the frigging Marathon? (I was a block away from "heartbreak hill") (Gee, now that's more excitement than you can get at any price - sit by the side of the road and watch 27,000 people jog by for six hours :sleep1: :thumbdown

Maybe I'll hit the 2 O'Clock Lounge for an eye opener.


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> Throwing out one coat wonders is a great way to NOT be called Luxury Painting.... IMO:whistling2:



The "luxury" is the second coat.


----------



## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

daArch said:


> I'm awake, I'm awake.
> 
> Sheeet, I missed last call again.
> 
> ...


 We're in the same boat today. I enjoy days off though. Put in enough evening/weekend hours recently to not be in a bad mood about sitting around doing absolutely nothing for a day or so.


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

daArch said:


> I'm awake, I'm awake.
> 
> Sheeet, I missed last call again.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, sounds like a Mad Men episode. You Don Draper you.


----------



## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

How bout them Rangers! And Mavs!


----------



## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

PaintWork said:


> How bout them Rangers! And Mavs!


Rangers!
:thumbup:


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Sherwin Williams makes a paint for one coaters over ANY :blink: color. Here ya go..

(from TDS)
SuperPaint Interior Latex Satin is for use on previously painted, bare or primed
wallboard and wood, and primed plaster, masonry, and metal. SuperPaint provides one coat hiding over any color on smooth surfaces and will provide a durable, scrubbable, and washable finish.


Those SW TDS are always funny to read. I did my second coat today with SuperPaint and it needs another. I probably didnt do something right. The TDS says 4 mil wet. I did 6-7 mil on my cuts.


----------



## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

I hear ya jack. I got a gallon of super paint free to try it out and it definitely needed two coats


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

RCP said:


> Wow, where is PWG with his train wreck pic!


Sorry, I've been slacking. Here ya go:


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

PaintWork said:


> I hear ya jack. I got a gallon of super paint free to try it out and it definitely needed two coats


I'm going to say this... when you finally use a good paint, you'll really appreciate it for what it does for you. Its then you realize how everything else you've been spreading lacks in comparison or doesnt even come close in comparison.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Sherwin Williams makes a paint for one coaters over ANY :blink: color. Here ya go..
> 
> (from TDS)
> SuperPaint Interior Latex Satin is for use on previously painted, bare or primed
> ...


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> I'm going to say this... when you finally use a good paint, you'll really appreciate it for what it does for you. Its then you realize how everything else you've been spreading lacks in comparison or doesnt even come close in comparison.


We all have our preconceived opininions about product and manufactures. I would seriously like to spend some time and do a blind test on paint. I'd be interested to see where my opinions fall.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

JoseyWales said:


> Why do you use that paint if it doesn't cover well?...You've mentioned that it is one of your go-to trim paints and you use it a ton...


No product from SW is a go-to paint of mine. If I am spreading SW its not my job, I dont do things repeatedly for no reason.


----------



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> No product from SW is a go-to paint of mine. If I am spreading SW its not my job, I dont do things repeatedly for no reason.[/QUOTE
> 
> Maybe I got you mixed up with someone else...I had a thread last week about everyone's go-to trim paint...Many chose superpaint,something I've never used before...Another chose solo-gloss,another SW product...


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm just going to say this because someone mentioned one coaters.

There are many times jobs of mine that do not actually "need" two coats. This is due to product and application methods specific to the cut and the roll. If you pay attention to millage and are consistent with your methods, one coaters are easy to do on color changes assuming you are not too far off on sheens with certain paints. 

Have you ever cut in a room and it all looked good except the corners? Thats application related. Or have you ever painted a room and it all looked good except the cut? Again, application related. Likely had the right cover but the wrong brush.

The main area guys struggle with is streaky cuts and the roll is light. Proper brush, cover and technique takes care of all that stuff. I can take a brush you are cutting with thats giving you streaky cuts and replace it with another that doesnt, same job, same paint. 

Often guys think when paint doesnt cover its just the paint. I've found that to be more application related than anything. Then you have those paints like SuperPaint, Promar, SherScrub etc that give you a false sense of coverage. You apply them heavy -- they appear to be fine and they dry light, transparent, streaky with bleed-thru. 

Depending on the job type, my goal is always a mindset of one coating regardless if it gets two. I'm a firm believer in appropriate film build because I am a sheen fanatic who insists on uniform finishes.

Remember this too... two coats of a certain product still is not as durable as 1 coat of another product.

just my 2 cents. personally I see nothing wrong with 1 coaters when done properly.


----------



## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> I'm just going to say this because someone mentioned one coaters.
> 
> There are many times jobs of mine that do not actually "need" two coats. This is due to product and application methods specific to the cut and the roll. If you pay attention to millage and are consistent with your methods, one coaters are easy to do on color changes assuming you are not too far off on sheens with certain paints.
> 
> ...


 I agree JP. Especially on interior work. In most cases I believe there really isn't a lot of advantage on interior work to build up layers of paint unnecessarily. If we are painting a white ceiling white and it looks perfect after 1-it's done. I do not see any reason to apply another. Most of my customers are repeat customers and they trust that the job will be 100%. Most are not concerned with how many coats it takes to get there. If it's gonna need 3, I had better have figured it for such, because it's gonna get it regardless. That's my problem, not theirs.
I also agree that the particular product matters. One guy promises 2 coats of "Benjamin Moore" paint(Super Hide), another does the job with one coat of Aura. Assuming the color change was not drastic and the Aura dried out perfect, which one would "you" rather have? Let the buyer beware. I've seen/done plenty of quality 1 coat projects that looked better and stood up better than other's 2 coats projects. It's about product choices, technique, application methods and don't forget- the mechanic.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Cliff, it all comes down to what your product can do for you. Product can handicap a painter and far too often does. Assuming there is a level of experience applying paints. 

But really, you said it... HO's just want it done, often they dont want to hear about all the mumbo jumbo to get there. We all know what that conversation was like trying to tell a HO about 5-8 coat possibilities... they want no part of that - they want that color! You figure it out!

My product lineup changes regularly, very few stay around.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I dont like where this thread has turned! :jester:


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Woodland said:


> Oh wow, I didnt even notice this was 7 pages! LMAO I know Im not scrolling through all that.


Set your user CP to 30 posts a page and it won't seem so bad. 



KLaw said:


> Duh - my lil genious man:
> work, neps, verm, rcp, wolf, Not a bad thing but ...


Alright I finally got top billing. :thumbsup:


To the OP:
sqft pricing only works for NC and you still need to know your numbers because in my area it is just an equation to satisfy the builders. 

20hr is not worth your time as a business owner, you could do about that working for someone else and let the business owner deal with all the headaches.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> To the OP:
> sqft pricing only works for NC and you still need to know your numbers because in my area it is just an equation to satisfy the builders.
> 
> 20hr is not worth your time as a business owner, you could do about that working for someone else and let the business owner deal with all the headaches.


 
That's a real a-hole statement!:jester:


----------



## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

I think Tony left the building.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That's a real a-hole statement!:jester:


Expect nothing less from me.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> I think Tony left the building.


Just like PWG's train ?

and both a little late, according to the schedule.

I remember when we could set our watches by both, when PWG would post the train wreck and when we tarred and feathered a non-compliant and ran him outa town on a rail. :thumbup:


----------



## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Cliff, it all comes down to what your product can do for you. Product can handicap a painter and far too often does. Assuming there is a level of experience applying paints.
> 
> But really, you said it... HO's just want it done, often they dont want to hear about all the mumbo jumbo to get there. We all know what that conversation was like trying to tell a HO about 5-8 coat possibilities... they want no part of that - they want that color! You figure it out!
> 
> My product lineup changes regularly, very few stay around.


 I always bid for 2 coats. A lot of people always ask "is that two coats". Even if it looks fine with one on the ceiling, they paid for two and want it. Pisses me off. Some people just aren't satisfied or feel they got thier "moneys worth" unless they see you breaking your back. If you give them a contract price and blow it out, they always say"you're fast" and think you got done too early, like they paid too much. My dad used to tell me to "slow down, there is plenty of money on this job, we don't want to get done to early". I never agreed with this. People always try to disect the bill at the end and figure out how much the painter is making an hour.


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

PaintWork said:


> How bout them Rangers! And Mavs!


You must be from Dallas. They never did anything while I lived there and have done pretty good since I moved away. The Cowboys though? When I was a kid that was Americas team. Ever since I left Texas thats defineatly changed, yet I still remain a loyal fan.


----------



## PaintWork (Feb 1, 2011)

Nope. Close to Dallas though. Yea I remember the days of Troy Aikmen, Emmitt and Irvin


----------



## finishingtouch1 (Apr 19, 2011)

I don't think any professional painter has a price per square foot written in stone. The price will change depending on the difficultness of the project. Faux finishes will be more difficult than painting a wall a solid color and so on. As others mentioned, figure out how long it will take you plust overhead and cost of materials. Labor, if you have workers. Be careful to know exactly what paint you will be using for the project. A gasllon of Benjamine Moore's good stuff will run you 50+ a gallon. Be carefull to check the paint you order, paint stores make mistakes too. A simple mix-up in sheen can run you hundreds of dollars in overages.


----------



## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> My dad used to tell me to "slow down, there is plenty of money on this job, we don't want to get done to early".


I remember those good ol' days!!!:yes: I can still hear my dad saying those same words back in 1980. That hasn't happened in quite a while. These days it seems like I am always trying to complete 9 hours of work in 8 hours just to keep it at all profitable!!
Thanks for the flash back Daniel!


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Woodland said:


> You must be from Dallas. They never did anything while I lived there and have done pretty good since I moved away. The Cowboys though? When I was a kid that was Americas team. Ever since I left Texas thats defineatly changed, yet I still remain a loyal fan.





PaintWork said:


> Nope. Close to Dallas though. Yea I remember the days of Troy Aikmen, Emmitt and Irvin



I'm still a fan of the Tom Landry days. Thats how I like to remember the Cowboys...


----------



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Holy crap 160 posts - I popped in at around 80 so I'll come back again at 240.

after the dim lights and slow dancing post....is this considered pillow talk?


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

bump....


that ones for you roominaday....


----------



## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

I have glanced through this thread a few times and for some insane reason decided to read the whole thing tonight.

You blokes are a bunch of tools and I would love to have a beer with you throw a bone in and be entertained watching you live.

No seriously I reckon that you are all great and I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I rate the following people for being the most entertaining:

tonytwotime - he started it all and he should go down as a legend 
Harry - the bloke is a guru and I reckon he knows what he is talking about. 
Neps - You are the man!!! how funny are you, I have to have a beer with you mate. 
Klaw - you rate too, stick it to em mate!
Vermontpainter - I dub you the official crap stirrer you would definitely need to be there to get the fight started. Now I understand the "I love Harry" avatar.
DeArch - You remind me of an old cranky painter, Again hilarious

I know I have not mentioned everyone but these guys stand out in my opinion. I Googled clownshoe and got the definition but I have never heard of it before. You yanks are so funny.

RCP - I know you wanted to close this thread, I am so glad that you did not. It should stay as an Icon.

All of you deserve a :drinkn me!


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> I'm still a fan of the Tom Landry days. Thats how I like to remember the Cowboys...


Oh yeah :thumbup: As for this thread? I remember this from a few months ago, but never gave it much thought at the time. Scrolling back through it makes me think. First thing that comes to mind is, I was exactly where the OP was at one time. I thought $20 was a great rate. :thumbsup: Today? I know that would only cover my overhead. I have learned a thing or two the hard way. Today, I can bid a job and actually make a profit. Besides my own mistakes, hours and hours of reaearch, etc....quite a few others took the time to show me a thing or two. For that, I am extremely grateful. I happen to be a member of a program where our motto is...."We can only keep what we have by giving it away" I try my best to live my life by the things I learned from this program and so far, it has worked better than anything else I have found. The 2nd thing I noticed is some of the replies.  Man, no wonder MOST who register never return. :no:And, I will admit I too have played a part in the BS that goes on at PT too at times. "Progress, not perfection.  I am far from perfect. Several members here have built some pretty successful businesses. I know for a fact that didnt happen by accident. Does that make for an ego the size of Texas? If my business reaches the level of success I see others here have reached, I can only pray I dont become an egotistical jerk. I am not proud of the fact I have gone off a few times here at PT too, vowing NEVER to return. Lol Yeah, like I could really stay away? Exactly what is the purpose of this site? I was under the impression it was to learn and share. Am I wrong? So, the guy is a $20 hr painter. Ok, one of two things will happen with that. He will either learn the hard way if he wants to stay in business, or he will evenually fail. Im not sure about the rest of you who are running thriving businesses, but launching mine was a huge struggle, and still is. I have painted some things for some ridiculous prices. Today things are a bit different. I might suggest a couple of you go back and read through some of your own posts. Is it really nessesary to treat another human being so rudely? Is there anything wrong with being humble?


----------



## Sully (May 25, 2011)

I'm launching right now and let me tell you it is getting tough! School is right around the corner too and it's going to add a little more spice to the pot. I'm sticking it out though. I want it so I know eventually I'll get it


----------



## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

PatsPainting said:


> lets not get ridiculous now, I would imagine just about everyone here if they were to look back at their first large estimate they did did not carry around a estimating manual lol. Or contacted the PDCA for guidance. Or even calculated the time it was going to take to cover a computer with plastic.
> 
> Just ballpark the amount of days you think it might take, multiply that by your daily rate of $160, add a little more for taxes. Then add materials. It's not that hard.
> 
> ...


 

Well said. I think a lot of people around here are a little too rigid in their advice. You can never plan for an estimate perfectly and with your little amount of experience you'd be wasting your time anyway. I have no idea the specifics of your market but Im guessing the bids you are competing against will fall in the 2500-4000 area. You'll be kicking yourself if you come in under 2500...thats a lot of work.


----------



## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

Holy hell i just posted in an old thread!


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

pacificpainters.com said:


> I have glanced through this thread a few times and for some insane reason decided to read the whole thing tonight.
> 
> You blokes are a bunch of tools and I would love to have a beer with you throw a bone in and be entertained watching you live.
> 
> ...




Rip Klaw... Gone but not forgotten.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

pacificpainters.com said:


> I have glanced through this thread a few times and for some insane reason decided to read the whole thing tonight.
> 
> You blokes are a bunch of tools and I would love to have a beer with you throw a bone in and be entertained watching you live.
> 
> ...


Oh for crying out loud, the sparks in this thread have long since burned and died, leaving cinders to be fanned by the wind and thrown to flame. Flames, like tongues, impassioned in a moments burst...

Anyways, yes, funny stuff. If there were painttalk baseball cards, the names you listed would be the most sought after.


----------



## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

cappaint said:


> Holy hell i just posted in an old thread!


Gotya!!! I knew I would open a can of worms.. :jester:


----------



## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> Oh for crying out loud, the sparks in this thread have long since burned and died, leaving cinders to be fanned by the wind and thrown to flame. Flames, like tongues, impassioned in a moments burst..


Yes I figured I would start it all up again for sheer entertainment value. Man I love you yanks, you always bite.


----------



## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

Had to reread this one as well. How many topics were covered in this thread?
Questions: Is KLaw gone? If not, Klaw, what's wrong with working on my El Camino?
VermontPainter: "Shut up and answer my questions." How can he shut up, if he is supposed to answer your questions? LOL
JP-I think I figured it out. SW hurt your feelings years ago, and much like football, you have your team and anyone who plays against the team you hate. I am not anti-Glidden & Behr, but, as you commented, paint is about application too. Are there any other paints you hate, or is SW it?


----------

