# Sags when airless spraying Kitchen cabinets



## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm a newby to airless spraying cabinets. Usually use a HVLP turbine, but wanted to try an airless so I wouldn't need to dilute the paint. Picked up a Titan ED655 sprayer with an Graco contractor gun w/FFLP210 tip set around 1200psi. Its the faces of the cabinets I have problems with, always get sags. I was spraying SW Pro Industial multi surface acrylic, first time using. I thought I was going fast enough, trying not to overlap the up and downs, side to side. Thought I was about 10-12" away. Had them on the first coat, cleaned up and shot 2nd coat and again I'm seeing sags. What the hell I'm I doing wrong? Should I use a 310 tip instead?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

A 310 will help. It sounds like you're putting way too much paint on.

You spray up and down, then side to side? That's a lot of paint. Pick one direction, and overlap 50%, then walk away.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Pro Industrial is a thin product so yeah, apply lighter coats, or do a tack coat then a bit heavier one.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

This is on the cabinet fronts,"face frame", not the doors or drawers. Where the stile and the top, middle and bottom rail intersect. I'm confused what difference a 310 tip would make. You'd have a wider fan, using more paint. The paint calls out for 2000psi, but with the FFLP tips shouldn't I be able to lower the pressure down to 1200psi as long as I get a good spray pattern, now fingers. Or at lower psi is there too heavy of paint coming out?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

A 210 and 310 put the same amount of paint down. The difference is how much of an area that paint is spread out on.

5ml of paint from a 210 vs a 410: the 410 spreads it out thinner. The orifice size is what determines how much paint comes out, regardless of the fan size.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Why not take the doors off and paint them flat? No sags that way. 
Pro ind msa does sag vertically. And doesn’t matter how light you apply it. 
We use the same rig, gun, etc. and usually a 310-410 tip. 
Better to do multiple light coats than to lay it on. 
Found that using the emerald trim enamel has better results. Smoother finish, not as gritty and less sags. Although it’s about $20/gal more. But for a cabinet job what’s $20?

Also recently have tried the BM scuff x many times and use that more often now. Dries fast!


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Spraying cabinets is tough, especially the frames. What others have said, but its really the overlaps where a horizontal and a vertical meet. You definately don't want to spray the area twice wet, so spray the way the wood goes, like top rail, then the sides, then the bottom. If the corner is already sprayed and wet, just tail off just before so you won't get build up.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

I did spray the doors and drawer flat, they turned out great! I was impressed with how the Pro Ind.msa leveled out and dried fast, multiple coats in one day. I didn't go with Emerald trim paint because these were not the best cabinets and didn't want to spend the$$ on them. I picked Pro Ind. because other people on multiple forums said they use and used it for cabinets and liked it. Ive never used and airless before on cabinets only HVLP. Maybe after some more research I need to bump up the psi to 1300-1400 and go with the 310?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Increasing the pressure is just going to put even more paint down, which is going to make things worse.

Make sure you have the pressure set correctly: lower it until you see "tails" at the edges of the fan pattern. Gradually raise the pressure just until the tails blend back into the fan. That's it, that's all, any higher than that and you're just going to be making more overspray.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The narrower the fan, the more concentrated the material will be applied. Also, fan widths are based on an 18" distance from the surface. (As I remember). If you are too close to the surface, concentration of paint will be higher than if you are further away. 

I believe a 210 tip is pretty narrow at 18". Developing experience with speed, distance, and movement will help you to control any tip size.

Another note: Unlike a conventional gun, where you typically have air escaping from the cap before material leaves the fluid tip at the moment of trigger pull, an airless delivers all of its pressure and material at once. This lends itself to inconsistent application if you are triggering the gun. 

The best application with an airless, is to allow the initial release of pressure, then maintain uninterrupted trigger pull while the pressure reduces to it's intended setting. Whenever you do have to stop and restart, make sure you are allowing a fanning action with the wrist so as to avoid build up and ultimately, sag.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

It's the width of the fan about 12 inches from the surface. The first number, the 2, is half of the width of the fan, so it would be 4 inches wide, 12 inches from the surface. A 310 tip would be 6 inches wide, etc... The second number, the 10, is the size of the orifice. The bigger the hole, the more paint you get.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Masterwork said:


> It's the width of the fan about 12 inches from the surface. The first number, the 2, is half of the width of the fan, so it would be 4 inches wide, 12 inches from the surface. A 310 tip would be 6 inches wide, etc... The second number, the 10, is the size of the orifice. The bigger the hole, the more paint you get.


You are correct. It's 12 inches from surface.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)




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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

Maybe I should have gone with a 208 tip since pro ind msa is thinner and lending itself to sags. I just fixed all the sags and will soon be spraying the third coat on affected areas. I think I'll use the 310 tip this time. Wish me luck! I do not like doing anything more than once!


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Pierson Painting said:


> Maybe I should have gone with a 208 tip since pro ind msa is thinner and lending itself to sags. I just fixed all the sags and will soon be spraying the third coat on affected areas. I think I'll use the 310 tip this time. Wish me luck! I do not like doing anything more than once!


For what it's worth, I just picked up a Graco 9.5 procomp hvlp. It sprays Emerald without thinning, with the remote cup at 15psi, and the #5 fluid set. It looks fantastic. So, maybe try a different material through your hvlp?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Since you stated you are new to airless work, you may just need more practice and experimentation. It can take time to put a combination of elements together that allow you to hit that sweet spot.
One thing you might consider is keeping a record of the different products you use along with tip size, pressure setting, paint viscosity, spray techniques, etc. That way, when you achieve success, you can more easily replicate it.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

That's exactly what I'm doing, writing everything down.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> Pierson Painting said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I should have gone with a 208 tip since pro ind msa is thinner and lending itself to sags. I just fixed all the sags and will soon be spraying the third coat on affected areas. I think I'll use the 310 tip this time. Wish me luck! I do not like doing anything more than once!
> ...


My recollection is the PI is so thin it can be sprayed with #3 basically unthinned, want to treat it almost like a lacquer.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

I always make sure I have a blow dryer on hand when spraying vertical surfaces. Even a heated up room helps too. Doors, cans , trim what have you. Helps to set the material before it saga. 


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

MSA is very close in consistancy as v50 BreakThrough and the only way I could avoid sags was by using a .308 tip. For future reference MSA is not rated for cabinets and will not hold up to hand oils. After a couple years it will start to breakdown around more handled areas and need to be redone. Sadly, I learned it the hard way.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

I used pro ind msa because of other painters saying they liked it for cabinets. I hope it holds up. I definitely think I would try a 08 tip next time. My 3rd coat over my sags was showing some pinholes in some areas. I think my psi may have been too low,"1000" and moving too fast. I didn't want to end up with more sags. Very frustrating, but you never know until you try.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Pierson Painting said:


> I used pro ind msa because of other painters saying they liked it for cabinets. I hope it holds up. I definitely think I would try a 08 tip next time. My 3rd coat over my sags was showing some pinholes in some areas. I think my psi may have been too low,"1000" and moving too fast. I didn't want to end up with more sags. Very frustrating, but you never know until you try.



I use the 310 at 2000psi, works perfect every time. I know you can go lower, but I always feel it doesn't atomize just right and the edges blend better at 2000psi. I use a 440i so that's where the light just turns from yellow to green. Money!!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Airless is the way to go for the doors, but why not just continue to use the turbine for the frames. Much more control! And lighter passes.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

I picked up the Titan ED 655 sprayer for cabinets and smaller jobs because I didn't want to always have to thin down material. Also an airless gun is much easier to manipulate in and under cabinets. Mark this down to a learning experience and move on. I don't think Ill be using this product again on cabinets.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for the input, appreciated!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Pierson Painting said:


> I picked up the Titan ED 655 sprayer for cabinets and smaller jobs because I didn't want to always have to thin down material. Also an airless gun is much easier to manipulate in and under cabinets. Mark this down to a learning experience and move on. I don't think Ill be using this product again on cabinets.


Cabinet coat 😉


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

I had to paint a window between two of the kitchen cabinets that was sprayed with Bin Shellac and the Pro Ind. MSZ. I Masked with green frog tape so I could caulk and paint the window. When I pulled the tape, it pulled a strip of the primer and msa right off the cabinet. WTF! Cabinets were stained and finished. I cleaned with Krud Kutter degreaser/cleaner, wipe off. Sanded, wiped with microfiber towel and tack cloth. Did I miss something? I ended up cutting off loose edges, bridging the area with sparkle and blending the MSA on with brush. Doesn't look noticeable being in the shadows.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Don't put tape on fresh paint!

Also, the way you pull the tape off matters. Pull on an angle, and keep it shallow. Don't pull straight out from the surface.


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## Pierson Painting (Mar 25, 2011)

The paint was a day old and bin shellac primer 3days. I already had taped it once and no problem. The shellac should not have pulled off. And according to msa specs it can be applied over less than perfect surfaces.


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Ooops sorry to hear!

Sags happen!

Frustrating I know!

Git r done and move on


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## IKnowNothing (Oct 15, 2020)

Pierson Painting said:


> I had to paint a window between two of the kitchen cabinets that was sprayed with Bin Shellac and the Pro Ind. MSZ. I Masked with green frog tape so I could caulk and paint the window. When I pulled the tape, it pulled a strip of the primer and adhesion right off the cabinet. WTF! Cabinets were stained and finished. I cleaned with Krud Kutter degreaser/cleaner, wipe off. Sanded, wiped with microfiber towel* and tack cloth.* Did I miss something? I ended up cutting off loose edges, bridging the area with sparkle and blending the MSA on with brush. Doesn't look noticeable being in the shadows.


I never use them. I don't trust them. Some brands of tack cloths leave a residue causing adhesion problems.
Wiping with microfiber cloth and degreaser like KK (great product, btw) is plenty, no need for tack cloth.
If anything after KK, I would follow using microfiber cloth with denatured alcohol. But no tack cloth.


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## Hollywoods (Jul 24, 2019)

It’s quite simple.Spraying enamel always requires a tack coat which means you fog coat the surface and wait sufficient time for it to be partially dry and very sticky and then lay on your first actual coat of paint. If it still runs your material is too thin and/or your putting it on too heavy.


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