# Prevent skim coat from peeling



## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

Hey gang, I've got a job coming up that is to skim coat walls that have previously been painted or had wall paper on them.

I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure.

My idea is to use something like GARDZ or Girpper to seal the walls first. Buuuut those products are kinda glossy (well not flat), and I'm worried that the mud is not gonna have a good purchase.

Anyone have any knowledge about the proper procedure? 

Thanks!


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Ubercorey said:


> Hey gang, I've got a job coming up that is to skim coat walls that have previously been painted or had wall paper on them.
> 
> I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure.
> 
> ...


BIN. It dries fast, will give you the rougher surface you want, and will seal in any water stains, or any other abnormalities that may come up.
Make sure to use a good respirator too

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

If it's just been painter, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just a good sand down will be fine. If there's wallpaper that's a different ball game. Your best bet is to get a steamer and remove the wall paper as best you can. A lot of times it's pretty quick if you can get the steam through or behind the paper. If it's really tight, then yes prime it with something quick drying. I've used shellac in the past and it's not a bad option, but really anything that is fast drying is key to avoid the paper from lifting. And then I'd probably just a very thin, very fast coat with 45 minute mud. That should also dry fast enough to avoid saturating the paper. Then after that you should be home free with regular joint compound if you'd like.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz!*



Ubercorey said:


> Hey gang, I've got a job coming up that is to skim coat walls that have previously been painted or had wall paper on them.
> 
> I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure.
> 
> ...


This is what I would do. 

After removing the wallpaper, get as much wallpaper glue...er... I mean paste off as possible and let dry thoroughly.

Sand all the walls down with enough grit to get all the nubs off.

Give both painted and wallpaper-removed walls a good coat of Gardz and let dry thoroughly. Don't worry about skim coating over Gardz. That is what it is intended for. If you want to skip Gardzing the painted walls, that might work. I just think it would work out better by Gardzing first, especially if you have cheap flat contractor's paint on the walls that might start melting once the water from your skim coat compound gets enough time next to it. Here is the TDS link:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

Skim coat all walls to the point that you feel they are ready for primer or paint, but instead, put 2 coats of Gardz on as directed on the can. The can says to put on an even first coat, then touch up spots that look dull so that you have a uniform sheen over the surface you are Gardzing. I prefer to just 2nd coat the Gardz over the whole previous surface as it goes faster than the first coat, doesn't use as much material anyway, and takes less time than trying to visually make the sheen even.

I prefer putting Gardz over skim coating instead of primer. I have had experiences where I skim coated with both Durabond and Easy Sand, then used 123 to prime and the skim coat started to melt! This doesn't happen with Gardz. 

It has been my experience that Gardz can be lightly scuff sanded when dry. When you roll paint over 2 coats of Gardz you will feel like you are in painters' heaven and that this is the way rolling paint should always happen.

Don't worry about the shine of Gardz. Gardz started out as a concrete sealer. If it is anything similar to acrylic floor sealers, then it is designed to be top coated with acrylic floor finish. If acrylic floor sealers did not allow top coats of acrylic floor finish to grip to it, this would have been found out a very long time ago. Also, think about what would take more punishment, a resilient floor with acrylic sealer and finish or a painted wall? If it works for a floor, why not a wall or a ceiling?

If you are worried about your work peeling off down the road (no pun intended), I imagine that Gardz would be your best insurance against this happening. Gardz penetrates porous surfaces far better than primers do. Try rolling some Gardz over a factory primed interior door and watch as the area that gets covered with Gardz darkens like water would darken a dry white t-shirt. This means that the Gardz is literally soaking through the cheap factory primer, going down to the surface below the primer and locking everything in solid. Same thing with a cheap contractor's paint. I haven't had this happen to me lately, but I can remember rolling new paint over old and watching the old paint come right off onto my roller!

You may save time not using Gardz, but I use Gardz so I don't find myself unwittingly doing experiments that end up taking more time to fix than using Gardz first.

I am home sick since Tuesday and trying to pass the time. I hope I did not put you to sleep.

futtyos


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

All purpose joint compound. Don't over think it. If it's a real glossy surface an as pokesand prior to application might be a good idea. We do this kind of work all the time and tge only time I prime first is under very unordinary circumstances.

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## mackhomie (Jul 25, 2007)

Wow, lol. That was a great answer. Futtyos, could/should you use gardz over pre-primed MDF? The last mdf I painted looked lousy and was a pain in the ass. course, I was using Behr and evidently I'm not the only guy who thought it was like trying to paint with glue


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*MDF and Gardz*



mackhomie said:


> Wow, lol. That was a great answer. Futtyos, could/should you use gardz over pre-primed MDF? The last mdf I painted looked lousy and was a pain in the ass. course, I was using Behr and evidently I'm not the only guy who thought it was like trying to paint with glue


The first time I brushed preprimed MDF I thought the paint was glueing right to the trim. The MDF sucked the paint right up. Ever since then I try to seal MDF with Gardz after a very light sanding. Unlike primer or paint, Gardz soaks right into the cheap primer on the MDF and doesn't drag. The doors I spoke of in post #4 above were MDF factory primed doors.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*More info please*



Ubercorey said:


> Hey gang, I've got a job coming up that is to skim coat walls that have previously been painted or had wall paper on them.
> 
> I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure.
> 
> ...


Uber, when you say "I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure" what kind of failure are you speaking of? Failure of other's work peeling off or your own? I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

futtyos


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Call me nuts... If I absolutely must go over wall paper I use a shellac primer first and top that with a good latex (aqulock is my go to), sand well and skim coat after that. I just did one of those and the HO was supposed to strip the paper but gave up when even with a steamer the work was to hard. He insisted I just mud it over. He would have saved money getting me to finish the stripping But I hate wall paper stripping! I never suggested he get me to finish that one!


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## mackhomie (Jul 25, 2007)

futtyos said:


> Uber, when you say "I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure" what kind of failure are you speaking of? Failure of other's work peeling off or your own? I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
> 
> futtyos


Lol. You and your "more info" requests. In his travels he's seen other people's work fail so often that he wants to ensure that his own work does not meet the same fate. His work bring the skim coat... isn't that what you got out of it?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

jennifertemple said:


> Call me nuts... If I absolutely must go over wall paper I use a shellac primer first and top that with a good latex (aqulock is my go to), sand well and skim coat after that. I just did one of those and the HO was supposed to strip the paper but gave up when even with a steamer the work was to hard. He insisted I just mud it over. He would have saved money getting me to finish the stripping But I hate wall paper stripping! I never suggested he get me to finish that one!


I'm with you. I've seen paper bubble so many times that I just rather pull it or go the extra mile to seal it so I'm not cutting 200 bubbles out of my skim coat.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Ass-u-me*



mackhomie said:


> Lol. You and your "more info" requests. In his travels he's seen other people's work fail so often that he wants to ensure that his own work does not meet the same fate. His work bring the skim coat... isn't that what you got out of it?


mack : ), I suppose I could assume that Ubercorey was trying to say or ask about any one or more of a number of things, but rather than take the chance of misunderstanding him, I thought I might ask him to be a little more specific. 

I am not quite sure what question or questions to ask him in order to properly offer any suggestions, that is, if I end up having any more than I have already given. If I am not sure what question he is asking, I could end up giving an answer to a wrong question. What good would that be?

If you notice, Ubercorey makes the following statement "I'm nervous about my work peeling off down the road as I've been out on tons of repair jobs to fix this type of failure" that leads me to conclude that he is at once both very familiar with this situation and very nervous that he might go about doing it wrong.

I am not clear about just what the nature of the "failure" is in his statement above. Is he looking to fix/repair a skim coat job by someone else that failed? Or, is he afraid that his skim coat job might fail?

I guess my question to Ubercorey narrows down to "what do you mean when you say 'this type of failure?'" Exactly what type of failure is Ubercorey speaking of?

Now we can guess what it is and go around and around, but I think that it is sometimes simpler just to ask in the first place, something I failed to do in this instance as you can see by my response to Ubercorey's query in post #4. If you read the very next post by LPC, she gives what appears to be some very sound advice that might save Ubercorey loads of time instead of doing what I suggested. Rather than disagree with LPC (as she no doubt has lots more field experience than I do), I decided to reread Ubercorey's question and decided I really did not understand it correctly. Perhaps that is just a shortcoming on my part and that I am missing what is plain to you and possibly everyone else here as well. I am willing to take that chance, and look! Here I am doing it. Hopefully Ubercorey will hmor me with a reply.

futtyos


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## gregplus (Jun 11, 2013)

*hi*

I just did one job with Gardz. I used 220 sanding paper before applying Gardz, did 1 skim coat wity 12" knife and added water to mud to make it laying better. Once it dried (about 2 hours) I did quick sanding with 220 again and applied second coat of mud. After that I did good sanding and used Gripper tinted to the same color, followed by coat of SuperPaint.

Its like new, you cant tell there was wallpaper on the walls before.

Here is my Gardz test on unprepared portion of the wall, I wanted to see what it does before using it.
Make sure you wear respirator P95 if using Gardz!!!!


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

Sorry, been working super long days. But I'm back.

So right. Ive been on a lot of jobs where the skim coat has started to delaminate from the original painted surface from the original construction. 

I don't want that to happen to my work down the road.

What I normally see is a chalky layer between the original wall and the skim coat causing and adhesion failure. I have no idea what it is. 

I'm definitely gonna go with GARDZ. Ive used gripper in the past, but I'm gonna migrate. I love gripper or 123 as a primer layer when I have to roll eggshell. I'm stoked that GARDZ will also give this smooth feeling and finish!

And good to know on the mdf, so you think gardz will work for bare mdf cabinet doors? Mdf hates primer, lol.


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

To clairify, it's other peoples work I've seen fail. The only full skim I ever did was on my own house I sold a few years back and have not heard of any issues with the walls. 

And the walls are a combo of old unfinished drywall that has been under wood paneling and previously wall papered walls. No painted walls to skim.

This will be my first big skim for a client. I'm thinking of useing that spray on final coat that is supposed to hide imperfections. There are a few brands any thoughts?


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

Final reply : )

When I mentioned that chalky layer between the existing wall and the skim coat from remodeling that I've seen, my worry has been that that chalky layer has been primer of some kind.

That's what started this whole inquiry I want to make sure I don't screw up and you some sort of primer that's going to fail inside between the existing walls and my new skim coat.

I do have a final question a lot of the drywall has been damaged from the wood paneling coming off and the paper surface is torn if I don't get all that torn paper perfectly flat and I use the guards as it going to make big rubbery boogers that I won't be able to sand down?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Welcome back*



Ubercorey said:


> To clairify, it's other peoples work I've seen fail. The only full skim I ever did was on my own house I sold a few years back and have not heard of any issues with the walls.
> 
> And the walls are a combo of old unfinished drywall that has been under wood paneling and previously wall papered walls. No painted walls to skim.
> 
> This will be my first big skim for a client. I'm thinking of useing that spray on final coat that is supposed to hide imperfections. There are a few brands any thoughts?


Ubercorey, glad to hear back from you! You appear to have answered some of my questions, but along with a bunch of other things as well. After rereading your posts I tried to delete this one as it was off point. Will a moderator please delete this for me? Thanks

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz TDS*



Ubercorey said:


> Final reply : )
> 
> When I mentioned that chalky layer between the existing wall and the skim coat from remodeling that I've seen, my worry has been that that chalky layer has been primer of some kind.
> 
> ...


Ubercorey, I think that Gregplus answered one of your questions in post #13 above. It appears (and may he correct me if I am wrong) that he sanded the torn wallpaper he was dealing with BEFORE he applied Gardz. That is what I would do. I would also use a razor knife to cleanly cut large sections of paper off instead ripping them all the way across the sheet of drywall! I think that if you do this and lightly sand the torn paper with the right grit sanding sponge you should be able to get the surface flat enough so that a coat of Gardz will soak through and pull the paper down flat enough to skim. I would lightly sand the dried Gardz prior to skimming. Be careful not to sand too hard, otherwise it will gum up. You just need to sand off the nubs that would otherwise make for a thicker skim coat.

I don't know what product you are planning to use for skim coating, but a word of caution if you are going to use USG's Easy Sand or Durabond or probably any other hot mud. I Gardzed a wall at one of the hi rise condos I have been painting, then I skim coated with Durabond. The GC came behind and did some repairs on this wall, followed by skim coating the repaired area with Easy Sand. USG's directions say not to use either of these products for a final skim coat. After the GC's Easy Sand had dried, he rolled a coat of Zinsser 123 onto the whole wall. While doing so, he noticed that the 123 was "melting" the skim coat and creating a slight texture. I also found this to be the case when rolling 123 over these 2 products. I never had a problem rolling Gardz over a skim coat of Easy Sand or Durabond, though.

If I was doing the job you are describing and I wanted to take the safest route possible to ensure that my skim coat would never delaminate or come apart, I would do the following:

1. Prep the walls to get them as flat as possible (remove paneling glue, cut away loose and damaged drywall paper, gently sand the damaged drywall paper as flat as I could without tearing it more.)
2. Apply one (1) thorough coat of Gardz to the drywall and let dry thoroughly, then gently sand nubs off.
3. Skim coat however you do it.
4. Apply Gardz as directed on the can and TDS, making sure that there is an even sheen to the surface (I would just roll a second coat of Gardz and be done with it. The 2nd coat goes fast anyway.)
5. Lightly sand the Gardz to get nubs off.
6. Paint 2 coats of whatever and that should do it.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*unprimed MDF and Gardz*



Ubercorey said:


> Sorry, been working super long days. But I'm back.
> 
> So right. Ive been on a lot of jobs where the skim coat has started to delaminate from the original painted surface from the original construction.
> 
> ...


Ubercorey, I have never used Gardz on bare, unprimed MDF. My thinking on this is that Gardz, being a water-based product, will swell the bare MDF and cause it to expand. I really should get a small piece of this to test next time I use Gardz on a job.

The only MDF I have applied Gardz to is factory primed MDF. Gardz seems to work well over this.

futtyos


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

I used the GARDZ and it was bad ass. Really sealed the surface and made it sound.

Today I'm skimming over semi gloss paint I've abraded with 40 grit. The owner knows it's a risk. The all purpose mud stuck like a champ though.

Anyway here is a photo of the current Gardz on the walls from the original project we've been talking about.


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## Ubercorey (Feb 11, 2018)

And the mudded areas are where the owner tried to float over all the torn paper and had hundreds of bubbles I had to cut out. Er... My helper cut out : )


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Are you working at night?*



Ubercorey said:


> I used the GARDZ and it was bad ass. Really sealed the surface and made it sound.
> 
> Today I'm skimming over semi gloss paint I've abraded with 40 grit. The owner knows it's a risk. The all purpose mud stuck like a champ though.
> 
> Anyway here is a photo of the current Gardz on the walls from the original project we've been talking about.


Are you describing 2 different jobs above? Obviously, the photo is of one job and the skim coat you are doing over semi-gloss is another.

When you say that the all purpose mud stuck like a champ, did you mean on the job in the photo or over the semi-gloss? I am guessing that you are talking about the job in the photo.

If you are worried about the mud sticking to the semi-gloss even though you sanded it with 40 grit, you might want to consider rolling a quick coat of pink-tinted Plaster Weld over the semi-gloss first. I was unaware of Plaster Weld (or any other similar product) until my GC at the hi rise condo buildings asked me to get a gallon of Elmer's white glue, mix it with a gallon of water, then roll it onto the orange-peel textured walls and ceilings he was going to skim. I decided to do a little research and found the Plaster Weld was probably a better way to go, so I convinced him and that is what we use now. USG also mnakes a pink-tinted Plaster Bonder. Kirk Giordano on Youtube also says that Sika makes a product smiliar to these. If it were up to me, I would just roll a coat of Gardz over the orange-peel paint, then skim, but my GC has a religious intolerance to Gardz, at least at this point. I wonder why?

Lest anyone here wants to tell me that I am overthinking this, I am keeping in mind that you are looking for a fool-proof (hence my keen interest in such matters, what with my being such a fool myself!) method of skim coating that won't come back to bite you in the plasster. I would sell the job as such and tell the HO that this is what needs to be done in order for the job to come out right and last long and for you not to have to come back and fix it.

As far as the job in the photo, what sheen paint are you going over this with and how much lighting will show up any flashing? Remember that the directions for Gardz says that it should have an even sheen and that you might have to touch up areas that are dull to get that even sheen. I usually just roll a whole 2nd coat of Gardz rather than take the time to look around and "try" to 2nd coat little areas. The 2nd coat rolls on fast anyway, as the lion's share of sealing has been done with the first coat. The 2nd coat will probably take less than half the time of the first coat and you will probably use less than have the Gardz that you did on the 1st coat, so if you want fast, cheap insurance on your job, roll that 2nd coat.

Even though I anticipate shouts and rants from the peanut gallery, I hope this helps. 

futtyos


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