# How would you approach this?



## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Currently in the estimation stage of this.

So, this is another case of a failed paint adhesion. Current coating is a little over one year old. What a mess this is going to be..... This is on a fair amount of galvanized steel. Most of the coating is flaking off fairly easily. Some areas will not be removed so easy I fear. 

One approach to this is blast with a pressure washer after removing anything electrical. Another is to scrape by hand, wire brush. Yet another is chemical stripping application. High pressure p wash sounds best with a chemical strip application afterwards for anything that did manage to stick.

Obstacles:

Walls, lockers and flooring etc. cannot be damaged. 
Lighting fixtures, other HVAC installed items. 

Maybe I should have posted this in the Commercial Industrial?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand.

What's the paint coming off of? The ductwork?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

UGH!!! 

Post fail hold on images coming. But yes, ducts and a ceiling.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Here ya go


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

A couple more. Some places the paint may be sticking ok.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

oh boy


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Laughing now. I think this truly defines hack yes?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

My hackery hasn't gotten me sued (yet).

Someone's liable to be over that though...


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I doubt they would want to pay for that.Back in the day we always pulled out a big diesel compressor and run what we called"Chicago Lines" basically 2" hose going down to a whip line with a shut off valve and about a 3" copper line crimped on the end. The high pressure air worked great.but you can never get it all.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Man...I dunno

Strippers gonna drip on that floor.
I'd probably do like you said, and start w/a powerwash...maybe it'll all come off w/that.

Don't ask me how you'd bid it though, in case it don't.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

The architect is making it right. Good man so far as I can tell. The paint contractor that did this? Meh, not so much. It's a finger pointing fine print on the contract game now. 

Just because the contract doesn't say remove all residue from steel prior to painting doesn't mean I am gonna paint over unprepped steel. It is hard enough to get paint to stick to it doing it the right way. Things come full circle in time. 

Anyway, I am leaning towards removal of electrical and p washing the failed stuff away. Less chance at creating more work by damaging already finished walls, floors, conduit, etc. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts for tackling this with as little pain to the architects pocket as possible.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> Man...I dunno
> 
> Strippers gonna drip on that floor.
> I'd probably do like you said, and start w/a powerwash...maybe it'll all come off w/that.
> ...


Exactly! 



Some sort of clause for t&m maybe?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Interesting thought Aaron. Anywhere I can see that on You Tube?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Powerwasher might be all you need.

I stripped this concrete floor of (tight) 4 layers- latex & who knows what else.

Powerwasher/cold water/2500psi

Pretty slow though...maybe 100 sq ft per hr


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Not that I'm aware of but when I was a younger man I did mainly industrial.GM plants,Honda,tool shops....and that's they way the old boys taught me.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Considered sand blasting it?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm gonna look into it Aaron.

Figuring what it will take timewise per 100 sq ft is a good method regardless of method. Thanks again.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Rcon said:


> Considered sand blasting it?


Hmmmmmmmm. 4,000 sq ft of ceiling. That's a lot of sand. Hauling the debris away would be a job in itself. Probably the best way so far as quality is concerned though.


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## Retired From Paint (Jun 12, 2011)

Blasting is the correct solution.

Consider soda or ice blast to ease clean up.

Best of luck


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I like this idea best

http://youtu.be/W4qvQWRpVHA


Thanks everyone for your replies. Will let you know what I propose tomorrow.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

A good job for a needle scaler.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> A good job for a needle scaler.Needle & Chisel Scaler Applications - YouTube


Dang, that looks like fun.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Looks like quite a job.


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## mike75 (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree soda blasting would be the most effective way or start with pressure washing first.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

T&M is the only way I would even consider that job...Good Luck.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Be interesting to know what's on that ceiling now.

If by chance some hack just sprayed some crappy thinned latex flat on it... blasting might be overkill.

...might only need a garden hose, or some compressed air. heh


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Oil primer plus paint on uncleaned galvanized steel. It's going to fall off easy for the most part. The dress out rooms are a little more protected from the environment so they are failing but not so much as the bay. 

I will get some pictures of the layout a little better so you can see more of what I am possibly working with. It would be good for anyone to look at and learn from anyway so...

I am thinking three, possibly two guys two days to clean the ceilings, including the turnout room and hose room and supplies room. One to blast, one or two to squeegy and clean the mess. 4500 psi with a Turbojet nozzle with a supply for wetsandblasting from a semi local supplier in case it is needed. Roughy ten minutes per 100 sq ft. Not including setup time and all that. Two scissor lifts for a week rental. Two guys spraying one filling the bucket, or just get a big bucket and fill less often. A boatload of tape and plastic ( walls - floors already finished remember ).... Other stuff just throwing things out there for fun's sake. 

Two coats of exterior semigloss dryfall SW. EDIT : add this http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paintdocs.com%2Fwebmsds%2FwebPDF.jsp%3FSITEID%3DSTORECAT%26doctype%3DPDS%26lang%3DE%26prodno%3DB42T17&ei=sf1jTo-QHYS2twfd4dSaCg&usg=AFQjCNH15qa1BoZ57QkpIvXBx51HfCL_Iw&sig2=rLyL7zDxW0xymeK3AgmzZA

I offered priming first. Money is tight. What can ya do? 

The covering of surfaces already painted and not failing is something to consider as well. 

Again, I will get some photos tomorow. Anybody feel free to suggest anything.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Anybody feel free to suggest anything.


Sounds like you're doin' fine.

I think I'll keep quiet from here on out, and see if I can learn something.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Here is an idea of the layout of things a little better. I haven't put on a level yet, but chances are the layout of the floor for runoff reasons will not be favorable. I am thinking three guys two days will be a minimum for getting the ceilings cleaned and the debris removed. Even if it comes off of the ceiling easily, then it has to be swept off of the mezzanine, down to the bay floor, paint chips seperated from the water then be sure the walls and floor are cleaned as well. Let dry then go in with lots of plastic and tape. 

The department will have all of the rooms cleared prior to beginning. 

The lights..... Damn all the lights. And just another fyi, the steel beams are getting fireproofed by another company altogether. 


Steve no sense in keeping quiet it encourages thought...


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

John, are they going to close the fire station for the duration of the job? The reason I ask is that that should be made clear during the bid process. We did two fire stations for a suburb here, and at the end of the day we had to clear out all of our stuff so that the station could remain open. Even went so far as to say that we could not work for more than 8 hours. The job had the possibility of going into winter, and the medical kits and drugs on the trucks could not freeze.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Another option?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Soda blast. A needle scaler sounds like the perfect job for a quad zero in the Navy. Too bad you arent on a US Naval ship....


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> Soda blast. A needle scaler sounds like the perfect job for a quad zero in the Navy. Too bad you arent on a US Naval ship....


HA!!


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Station apparatus and ambulance will be parked outside during the hours in which we are working. The bay will have to be cleaned at the end of every day in order to have the vehicles put back. The dept. is strictly volunteer other than the medics which use the station as a base. We will come up with a way to have members not be hindered from responding to a call while work is in progress. Being a member of the dept. and knowing the medics will give me some flexibility with things like that although I will need to be sure the expectations of having all areas ready for the paint contractor are clear. I volunteer there to help take care of the place and run calls but this will not fall into the job description of volunteering anything. 

I am way more fond of the dry ice theory or soda blasting as well with all of the electrical items in place. Thing is finding a system I can rent* that will be effecient and figuring a rate of production expectancy* (hint hint) with what I use. Those systems would definitely be the better choice as far as overall clean up goes. This I am sure of. The mezzanine is doubtfully graded properly for water runoff.... I dunno the architect and I will be talking again. An idea of the rates of production to expect with that would be useful for me.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Station apparatus and ambulance will be parked outside during the hours in which we are working. The bay will have to be cleaned at the end of every day in order to have the vehicles put back. The dept. is strictly volunteer other than the medics which use the station as a base. We will come up with a way to have members not be hindered from responding to a call while work is in progress. Being a member of the dept. and knowing the medics will give me some flexibility with things like that although I will need to be sure the expectations of having all areas ready for the paint contractor are clear. I volunteer there to help take care of the place and run calls but this will not fall into the job description of volunteering anything.


Good stuff to know before you bid it. :thumbsup: There will be some serious hours doing _set-up_ and _clean-up_ each day, and I just wanted to make sure you were covering yourself. The two stations that I did were prevailing wage, and an open bidding process where all contractors were bidding from the same specifications. _Everything_ was spelled out.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Gotcha


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

I would have recommended they put a drop ceiling in.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok so, the proposal via e-mail will be to include a scope of work to include using the air blasting method initially followed by a lava blasting method with availability for that and rate of production being better than anything else around these parts. This will be followed by a rinse after downstreaming some simple green. 

Take it from there. Whoever it was that mentioned the air blasting idea. :thumbsup:

I think I am going to be doing this job.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Provided a contract for this today. Will see.


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## Stuard James (Sep 13, 2011)

Please do mention that what do you want to explain.During posting you must understand this that you have to convey this to other persons not you.read you post again its quite incomplete.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Stuard James said:


> Please do mention that what do you want to explain.During posting you must understand this that you have to convey this to other persons not you.read you post again its quite incomplete.


These two sentences are very hard to read and comprehend.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

It's a language thing, he is from Punjab. He has gone back and won't be posting anymore.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I know some folks like to hear the endings to some stories so...

Between negotiations beginning during the date of the op to now, it is something we have decided to let go.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks for the update John. On to bigger and better things!


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Currently in the estimation stage of this.
> 
> So, this is another case of a failed paint adhesion. Current coating is a little over one year old. What a mess this is going to be..... This is on a fair amount of galvanized steel. Most of the coating is flaking off fairly easily. Some areas will not be removed so easy I fear.
> 
> ...


Did you figure out why the paint wouldnt adhere? Does the temperature change in this location drastically in the painted area? I am just wondering if they used oil dryfall on galvanized where the temp changes which would cause it to fall off.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Architect spec'd oil on top of galvanized metal. Painter followed specs. Both were wrong. 

There is a concrete slab above the galvanized decking. Potential condensation issue to follow after the deck is cleaned. It's humid here all the time. Architect didn't want to sign my contract relieving me of responsibility due to things out of my control which may hinder the operation. Lift rental due to things out of my control can add up fast. Among other things. Third party inspectors, multiple parties responsible for paying..... Meh. 

This is a architect issue, an insurance issue, a town issue and curently not my issue. I am happy with it set up that way.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

For the best John. Looks like a major PITA


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Did anyone analyze the cause of the failure? Looks like alkyd drywall over galvanized. Supponification. Compressed air looks effective. What does the architect say is the level of prep? Complete removal? Will blasting remove the galvanization? May want to clean to SSPC-SP-1 before blasting. I would consider an epoxy ester drywall for that. It sticks, it holds back corrosion, resists diesel fumes, but stinks like crazy.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks for the update, F&S

I was thinking/wondering about this job just the other day...don't ask me why, cuz I don't remember.

When to pass on a pretty-sure-to be-a-PITA job, is something that's usually learned in the school of hark knocks.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Yep, some of the best jobs I've done are the ones I've turned down. Plenty of easy money out there to worry about the ones that are a guaranteed headache.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

NACE said:


> Did anyone analyze the cause of the failure? Looks like alkyd drywall over galvanized.* Supponification*. Compressed air looks effective. What does the architect say is the level of prep? Complete removal? Will blasting remove the galvanization? May want to clean to SSPC-SP-1 before blasting. I would consider an epoxy ester drywall for that. It sticks, it holds back corrosion, resists diesel fumes, but stinks like crazy.


That's a new word on me. All I know is that as a general rule alkyd on top of galvanized steel equals fail. I think coupled with the potential condensation issue that arises either due to architectural design or by simply opening the bay doors, it would be tough to get a surface deemed 'suitable for coating' by anyone willing to put their own dollar on the line. I recommended an acrylic DTM primer followed by two coats of Spraylastic. The architect wants to spec only two coats of Spraylastic without bearing any responsibility if it fails. The Spraylastic specs note primer is not needed for coating galvanized steel. I said I was willing to do whatever he wanted so long as a third party did a copper sulfate test following the complete cleaning of the deck, deemed it suitable for coating, and then followed up with an inspection to determine if the surface was then properly coated. Third party being my rep. I wanted assurance that if some thing happens whereas the surface is not deemed suitable for paint after the test, I would not be responsible for any additional costs incurred as a result. Rust is going to begin to develop before too long. 

This is just a bit of it all. Bottom line is, in street terms, there is just way too much shat in the game in this one. 

I am learning. It was a fun experience dealing with everyone. And I appreciate everyone's help in this thread.


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