# Sherman Williams at Lowe's



## PACman

Just got back from my local Lowe's store and guess what? They have lots of nice Sherwin Williams paints in there now. In fact, most of the p.o.p. displays are SW. New color gallery right up front next to the tint counter.

I new that the HGTV label was going into Lowe's as a re-label, but I wonder what the other interior line and the two exterior lines are. All of them have HGTV markings on them as that is the major marketing push of having SW at Lowe's.

(p.o.p. stands for point of purchase for you trade guys that may not know)


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## Gough

Proalliance coatings said:


> Just got back from my local Lowe's store and guess what? They have lots of nice Sherwin Williams paints in there now. In fact, most of the p.o.p. displays are SW. New color gallery right up front next to the tint counter.
> 
> I new that the HGTV label was going into Lowe's as a re-label, but I wonder what the other interior line and the two exterior lines are. All of them have HGTV markings on them as that is the major marketing push of having SW at Lowe's.
> 
> (p.o.p. stands for point of purchase for you trade guys that may not know)


I've heard of p.o.s., point of sale. I thought p.o.p. was the floor display where you actually grab the product.

Although with SW, p.o.s. could mean something else.

J/k


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## DrakeB

Proalliance coatings said:


> Just got back from my local Lowe's store and guess what? They have lots of nice Sherwin Williams paints in there now. In fact, most of the p.o.p. displays are SW. New color gallery right up front next to the tint counter.
> 
> I new that the HGTV label was going into Lowe's as a re-label, but I wonder what the other interior line and the two exterior lines are. All of them have HGTV markings on them as that is the major marketing push of having SW at Lowe's.
> 
> (p.o.p. stands for point of purchase for you trade guys that may not know)


Presumably they aren't labeled as SW, just as HGTV?


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## Jmayspaint

Woodford said:


> Presumably they aren't labeled as SW, just as HGTV?



No, Sherwin Williams is plastered all over the paint isles at Lowes now. I went in the other day to get some Valspar Ultra for a cheapie job and it was gone. Discontinued to make room for the new SW stuff.


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## epretot

One of the sales associates at a local SW is now a Lowes SW paint rep. I knew about this for a couple of weeks. 

I think the product is called Ovation.


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## DrakeB

Huh, that's... interesting. I'm finding the whole Lowes/Valspar relationship to be hilarious. Valspar said "**** you" to all of their other clients and only sold their better paints to Lowes... now Lowes is essentially blowing them off for something else. Valspar have screwed themselves into a corner with their garbage treatment of their customers. Good riddance to them. I bet they're gone or bought within 5 years.

I used to sell Valspar, if you can't tell. Man, that was a miserable experience.


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## Gough

Woodford said:


> Huh, that's... interesting. I'm finding the whole Lowes/Valspar relationship to be hilarious. Valspar said "**** you" to all of their other clients and only sold their better paints to Lowes... now Lowes is essentially blowing them off for something else. Valspar have screwed themselves into a corner with their garbage treatment of their customers. Good riddance to them. I bet they're gone or bought within 5 years.
> 
> I used to sell Valspar, if you can't tell. Man, that was a miserable experience.


Our local lumberyard used to be a Benny Moore dealer. They dropped that brand and started carrying Valspar :-(. Fortunately, the manager of their paint department then opened his own BM store. The only downside is that it
is 35 miles away. Glad they deliver.


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## PACman

epretot said:


> One of the sales associates at a local SW is now a Lowes SW paint rep. I knew about this for a couple of weeks.
> 
> I think the product is called Ovation.


Ovation and Showcase. Two grades at least on the interior.
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/hgtv-home-by-sherwin-williams/paints-and-supplies/

here's a link to SW's HGTV page. The Ovation will also be at SW for $3-4 dollars a gallon more. Again, they will probably give painters a 20% discount so they can get the mark-up to their customers, but they are still actually buying it around the same price that Lowe's has it. The interior Ovation is $3.50 per gallon more in each sheen and the exterior is $4.00 more each sheen at SW.

SW refused to do this years ago for HD and they got the Dutch Boy label kicked out of there. One of the reasons SW gave at the time was the contractor pricing issue. They didn't want HD to sell for less than they were selling to painters. Frazee stepped up in the southwest as a second line to Behr, and we all know where that led them.


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## PACman

Gough said:


> Our local lumberyard used to be a Benny Moore dealer. They dropped that brand and started carrying Valspar :-(. Fortunately, the manager of their paint department then opened his own BM store. The only downside is that it
> is 35 miles away. Glad they deliver.


Ace did the same thing. Also, in England one of the major home improvement stores got rid of Dulux and brought in Valspar. WOW there is a lot of bitching on the internet about that! I actually almost feel bad for the Brits.


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## PACman

They also had a cheap apartment grade and an "economy" grade with the SW logo on it. Probably Promar 400 and 700 from what they have it priced at. 5-6 bucks below what most contractors around here pay for 400 and 700, lol. Same as Menard's Conco brand. PM 200,400,700 re-labels at prices well below what the local going price on Promar is. Buyer beware remember. But hey at least at SW you get knowledgeable and helpful staff, right?


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## Gymschu

Here's the National Sales Rep for SHERMAN Williams:


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## woodcoyote

Gymschu said:


> Here's the National Sales Rep for SHERMAN Williams:


Nah they knew it was going to happen. In fact sherwin reps will be placed in lowes to help answer questions etc. Not every day but scheduled in. 

About a month ago they told me they were going into lowes with the reps etc. Pretty good strategy on their part. Besides DIY is a large sector of money because everything is full retail instead of contractor pricing. Make more money.

Sherwin Millions.


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## mastr

woodcoyote said:


> Sherwin *Billions*.


....


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## alan

wait so do I get to tell my clients that promar 200 is better than
lowes SW ??? :blink::blink:


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## woodcoyote

alan said:


> wait so do I get to tell my clients that promar 200 is better than
> lowes SW ??? :blink::blink:


Yes it is actually.

And you tell your clients that the paint there is for home owners and is their entry level paint, not the professional, longer lasting and more durable type that painters use.


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## Susan

Anybody here have a grip on Valspar's connection to automotive finishes?


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## Different Strokes

woodcoyote said:


> Yes it is actually.
> 
> And you tell your clients that the paint there is for home owners and is their entry level paint, not the professional, longer lasting and more durable type that painters use.


What makes the promar 200 we buy at SW better than the Ovation they now sell at Lowes? If just one SW paint rep could honestly tell me why their interior paint so far exceeds other brands, warrants the incredible shelf prices SW puts on their paints, and not blow a bunch of smoke up my butt that'd be great. If they want us to lie for them, the least they could do is give us some decent sounding "real life" facts.


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## PACman

Gymschu said:


> Here's the National Sales Rep for SHERMAN Williams:


I sometimes call it Sherman Williams on purpose. Drives them up a wall.


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## PACman

woodcoyote said:


> Yes it is actually.
> 
> And you tell your clients that the paint there is for home owners and is their entry level paint, not the professional, longer lasting and more durable type that painters use.


But they have the exact same paint in the exact same labels at SW. For $3.50-$4.00 a gallon more. How do you explain that?


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## PACman

Different Strokes said:


> What makes the promar 200 we buy at SW better than the Ovation they now sell at Lowes? If just one SW paint rep could honestly tell me why their interior paint so far exceeds other brands, warrants the incredible shelf prices SW puts on their paints, and not blow a bunch of smoke up my butt that'd be great. If they want us to lie for them, the least they could do is give us some decent sounding "real life" facts.


Remember, they are Sherman Williams employees. They get paid to sell you SW products, not to be honest about the performance of their product.

Buy from an independent that can honestly sell you a product that lives up to your expectations.


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## DrakeB

Different Strokes said:


> What makes the promar 200 we buy at SW better than the Ovation they now sell at Lowes? If just one SW paint rep could honestly tell me why their interior paint so far exceeds other brands, warrants the incredible shelf prices SW puts on their paints, and not blow a bunch of smoke up my butt that'd be great. If they want us to lie for them, the least they could do is give us some decent sounding "real life" facts.


Good luck with that.


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## mr.fixit

I was in the local Lowes last night and when I walked past the paint dept. I noticed the guy mixing paint was wearing an S/W shirt which I was curious why thy would allow him to wear it. Now I know.


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## PACman

Proalliance coatings said:


> Just got back from my local Lowe's store and guess what? They have lots of nice Sherwin Williams paints in there now. In fact, most of the p.o.p. displays are SW. New color gallery right up front next to the tint counter.
> 
> I new that the HGTV label was going into Lowe's as a re-label, but I wonder what the other interior line and the two exterior lines are. All of them have HGTV markings on them as that is the major marketing push of having SW at Lowe's.
> 
> (p.o.p. stands for point of purchase for you trade guys that may not know)


I just realized that no one tried to kick me out! Now I'm disappointed! 

Well there is always this afternoon.


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## PACman

mr.fixit said:


> I was in the local Lowes last night and when I walked past the paint dept. I noticed the guy mixing paint was wearing an S/W shirt which I was curious why thy would allow him to wear it. Now I know.


hey I just remembered I have a few old SW managers' shirts. Maybe I should wear them so I can get some street cred with the painters!


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## Different Strokes

I hit lowes on my way home tonight. Asked the nice woman working the paint department why SW Ovation Flat wall paint is worth the $38 per gallon price tag. "because it sticks to the wall so much better than other paints do"

mystery solved.


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## chrisn

Yet another good reason to boycott SW in my opinion only:whistling2:


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## woodcoyote

Proalliance coatings said:


> But they have the exact same paint in the exact same labels at SW. For $3.50-$4.00 a gallon more. How do you explain that?


You don't explain it. You upsell the customer to stuff like cashmier, emerald, etc. 

Just like you can buy Purdy rollers cheaper at Lowes than you can at Sherwin, don't need to explain it. If the customer wants Ovation at a cheaper price they can go to Lowes. 

*Or if you got good people working at your Sherwin they'll just match the pricing and you can use your account.


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## Gough

Different Strokes said:


> I hit lowes on my way home tonight. Asked the nice woman working the paint department why SW Ovation Flat wall paint is worth the $38 per gallon price tag. "because it sticks to the wall so much better than other paints do"
> 
> mystery solved.


Good to know that the Lowe's people are as knowledgeable as the counter help at an actual SW:whistling2:


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## Different Strokes

woodcoyote said:


> You don't explain it. You upsell the customer to stuff like cashmier, emerald, etc.
> 
> Just like you can buy Purdy rollers cheaper at Lowes than you can at Sherwin, don't need to explain it. If the customer wants Ovation at a cheaper price they can go to Lowes.
> 
> *Or if you got good people working at your Sherwin they'll just match the pricing and you can use your account.


That is what SW wants and expects you to do, upsell their premium line, that is exactly why I would suggest Ben Moore or the like if they want premium. Emerald and Cashmere are junk to work with.


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## woodcoyote

I've tried Emerald and it isn't too bad. Has some decent qualities. Never tried cashmere. My go to is ecoselect, so I'm somewhat partial.


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## PACman

Different Strokes said:


> I hit lowes on my way home tonight. Asked the nice woman working the paint department why SW Ovation Flat wall paint is worth the $38 per gallon price tag. "because it sticks to the wall so much better than other paints do"
> 
> mystery solved.


I think she meant it sticks better than Behr's paint.


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## PACman

woodcoyote said:


> You don't explain it. You upsell the customer to stuff like cashmier, emerald, etc.
> 
> Just like you can buy Purdy rollers cheaper at Lowes than you can at Sherwin, don't need to explain it. If the customer wants Ovation at a cheaper price they can go to Lowes.
> 
> *Or if you got good people working at your Sherwin they'll just match the pricing and you can use your account.


I don't understand how a professional painter can take this lightly. If I found out that the lumberyard across the street from me was buying Purdys for 20% less than me, Purdy would be out the door. This kind of thing killed Frazee paint. All they are doing is up-charging to cover the expense of their fancy stores and advertising. It's like if you went to one car dealership an got a price then went to the fancy dealership in the big city and they added a dealer markup to the sticker price. It's a gouge plain and simple.


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## DrakeB

This thread is gold.


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## DrakeB

Woodford said:


> This thread is gold.


Which, coincidentally, must be the main ingredient in some of these paints, because otherwise I can't sort out the pricetag


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> Which, coincidentally, must be the main ingredient in some of these paints, because otherwise I can't sort out the pricetag


I guess we are the only ones that fully understand the implications of this scenario. It means that TV has finally taken control of paint marketing, in the form of DIY targeted shows and commercials(HGTV), and the hell with the professional painters. They just don't see it that way!

And guess what? The dinosaurs never new what hit them either!


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## PACman

I bought a can this morning, and after brushing some and rolling some I believe it can give the Behr Pure Premium Ultra a good run for the money. I think it is a big improvement over the Lowe's Valspar Ultra. For what that is worth to any of you of course!

This is the Ovation label not the Showcase label.


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## ShermanMoore

Proalliance coatings said:


> I bought a can this morning, and after brushing some and rolling some I believe it can give the Behr Pure Premium Ultra a good run for the money. I think it is a big improvement over the Lowe's Valspar Ultra. For what that is worth to any of you of course!
> 
> This is the Ovation label not the Showcase label.



FWIW Ovation is just Super Paint with a different label to sell it at a fair price, just like the old SW HGTV paint was relabeled 200 Zero. The data sheets are identical and colors take the same formula in each product. I haven't seen a data sheet for Showcase, but I'd bet good money it's Duration.


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> FWIW Ovation is just Super Paint with a different label to sell it at a fair price, just like the old SW HGTV paint was relabeled 200 Zero. The data sheets are identical and colors take the same formula in each product. I haven't seen a data sheet for Showcase, but I'd bet good money it's Duration.


Another example of why it's great having suppliers posting on this forum.

Thanks fellas.


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## woodcoyote

Proalliance coatings said:


> I don't understand how a professional painter can take this lightly. If I found out that the lumberyard across the street from me was buying Purdys for 20% less than me, Purdy would be out the door.
> It's a gouge plain and simple.


Well it doesn't affect too much either way. To some degree it will but it won't put painters out of business overnight or something, it isn't self applying.

Sherwin does a good job of remarketing stuff etc. So essentially they do the painter's work of trying to convince people that harmony is better than X, etc. etc. Even within their own lineups (excluding lowes etc.). 

If they happen to sell an equivalent product cheaper at another store (lowes) then so be it. Just buy the paint for the job there. Just like you would buy roller covers if they were cheaper or brushes. Minwax, purdy, and some other stuff sherwin owns are cheaper there anyway than in their stores. So a price difference for the same product isn't a new thing that's going on.

And like I said earlier as well. Doesn't hurt to ask if they can match some pricing. If not oh well, they know what will happen. And in most cases they can or will come close. Least that is my experience.


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## mudbone

chrisn said:


> Yet another good reason to boycott SW in my opinion only:whistling2:


Agree I think they can stoop pretty lowe!


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## mudbone

Proalliance coatings said:


> I bought a can this morning, and after brushing some and rolling some I believe it can give the Behr Pure Premium Ultra a good run for the money. I think it is a big improvement over the Lowe's Valspar Ultra. For what that is worth to any of you of course!
> 
> This is the Ovation label not the Showcase label.


 :no::no::no:


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## paintpimp

Woodford said:


> This thread is gold.



Especially if your the manager and see your employees post stuff all day long, every day.


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## PACman

mudbone said:


> :no::no::no:


Are you implying that this info has no worth? lol!


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## PACman

I saw something this morning that I found quite ironic, and i kind of relate it to what is going on in the paint business lately. A guy at Walmart had an old pos Chevy s-10 with a nice big shiny Dodge Ram hood ornament on it, like the ones they put on pick-up trucks. Like one is better than the other or something. Dream big my friend, dream big.


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## DrakeB

woodcoyote said:


> And like I said earlier as well. Doesn't hurt to ask if they can match some pricing. If not oh well, they know what will happen. And in most cases they can or will come close. Least that is my experience.


Yes, it's every painter's dream to work with a paint company where you have to fight with them, as a professional painter, to get the same prices on the same products as DIY'ers. :whistling2:

I'm so baffled why people still shop with SW


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> Yes, it's every painter's dream to work with a paint company where you have to fight with them, as a professional painter, to get the same prices on the same products as DIY'ers. :whistling2:
> 
> I'm so baffled why people still shop with SW


yeah no Sh**. And then they complain that there is no were else to buy paint every time they announce a price increase.


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## PACman

Someone told me this morning that it is Promar 200 and 400 relabeled and I said bullsh**! There is no way that Promar 200 and 400 have ever covered as well as this stuff does. This is obviously a much higher grade then that! Gotta be Superpaint and Duration just with the 40% off sale an everyday thing at Lowe's. I don't understand this at all. Exactly what killed off Frazee after they went into Home Depot out west.

If anything the property management grade is 200 ($13.98 for flat) and the economy grade is 400($9.97 for flat).

tell me if I am wrong, but the lowest prices I have seen around here are right at $26-27 for superpaint and $37-38 for Durations. That puts Lowe's $27 for ovation and $38 for showcase right at the lowest contractor pricing in my area. Is that similar to what painters are paying elsewhere? If it is i'd be damn pissed!


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## ShermanMoore

Proalliance coatings said:


> Someone told me this morning that it is Promar 200 and 400 relabeled and I said bullsh**! There is no way that Promar 200 and 400 have ever covered as well as this stuff does. This is obviously a much higher grade then that! Gotta be Superpaint and Duration just with the 40% off sale an everyday thing at Lowe's. I don't understand this at all. Exactly what killed off Frazee after they went into Home Depot out west.
> 
> Not sure comparing Frazee and a $10 billion paint empire, the largest in the domestic market, is quite an apt comparison. If anything, I think SW saw the writing on the wall and realized that you can't charge what they used to for mid-grade paint. They have been on defense for a while now and I think they wanted to fire a scud. They're rolling out very competitive pricing lately and focusing more on volume than margins, and they're getting that market share. I'd be more worried for BM than SW at this point. And you're right, Ovation and Showcase are not 200 and 400, not even close.
> 
> If anything the property management grade is 200 ($13.98 for flat) and the economy grade is 400($9.97 for flat).
> 
> These lines are almost certainly Property Solution and Painter's Edge relabels. Those shelf prices are out of the question for 200 and 400.
> 
> tell me if I am wrong, but the lowest prices I have seen around here are right at $26-27 for superpaint and $37-38 for Durations. That puts Lowe's $27 for ovation and $38 for showcase right at the lowest contractor pricing in my area. Is that similar to what painters are paying elsewhere? If it is i'd be damn pissed!


Ovation and Showcase are SW's way of easing into what is more the going rate for paints of those quality levels without just dropping shelf prices. I would say the prices you named are _very good_ prices for contractors, but not smoking. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is about the price. At a time when BM just had a price increase, people are gonna complain that SW wants to relabel Super Paint and drop the price to a bargain at $27? SW makes some debatable choices, but I'm not really sure lowering prices to an everyday low price for all is a terrible one. Don't people keep clamoring for a 'one-price-for-all' to simplify pricing? I dunno, you can't please everyone.


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## chrisn

ShermanMoore said:


> Ovation and Showcase are SW's way of easing into what is more the going rate for paints of those quality levels without just dropping shelf prices. I would say the prices you named are _very good_ prices for contractors, but not smoking. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is about the price. At a time when BM just had a price increase, people are gonna complain that SW wants to relabel Super Paint and drop the price to a bargain at $27? SW makes some debatable choices, but I'm not really sure lowering prices to an everyday low price for all is a terrible one. Don't people keep clamoring for a 'one-price-for-all' to simplify pricing? I dunno, you can't please everyone.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Hard to please ANYONE around here:laughing:


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## ShermanMoore

chrisn said:


> Hard to please ANYONE around here:laughing:


True dat. I don't agree with everything Uncle Sherwin decides, but this recent move looks to me like SW admitting to what everyone here says it should, namely, that the pricing is out of whack and needs to be simplified (and preferably lower). You don't have to go out and buy the new lines, but I think it'd be disingenuous to say they're still overpriced -- unless you think SW is overpriced at any price, which I recognize is the case for many on this forum. In that case, you're probably not the kind of person who really cares what your paint costs as long as it's under $100. 

FWIW, I hear Ben Moore is hinting to it's dealers that it has a big reveal planned later this year. My local guy speculates that it's their first $100+ gallon of paint. Cheers.


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## woodcoyote

$100 a gal isn't bad if it's good stuff. I've paid over 100, $110 actually for some Modern Masters paint, metallic. So....it all depends.


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## ShermanMoore

woodcoyote said:


> $100 a gal isn't bad if it's good stuff. I've paid over 100, $110 actually for some Modern Masters paint, metallic. So....it all depends.



Specialty stuff for niche jobs, sure. But I could never imagine shelling out $100 for matte wall paint. If the customer wants and pays for it, I'd do as I'm told, but I'd recommend spending half that and giving the other half to charity if they want to feel special.


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## Gough

ShermanMoore said:


> Specialty stuff for niche jobs, sure. But I could never imagine shelling out $100 for matte wall paint. If the customer wants and pays for it, I'd do as I'm told, but I'd recommend spending half that and giving the other half to charity if they want to feel special.


FPOE matte wall paint $166/gal


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## ShermanMoore

Gough said:


> FPOE matte wall paint $166/gal




Some people have way too much disposable income.


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## Gough

ShermanMoore said:


> Some people have way too much disposable income.


I'd be afraid to even try it for fear I'd really like it.


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> Ovation and Showcase are SW's way of easing into what is more the going rate for paints of those quality levels without just dropping shelf prices. I would say the prices you named are _very good_ prices for contractors, but not smoking. I guess I just don't see what the big deal is about the price. At a time when BM just had a price increase, people are gonna complain that SW wants to relabel Super Paint and drop the price to a bargain at $27? SW makes some debatable choices, but I'm not really sure lowering prices to an everyday low price for all is a terrible one. Don't people keep clamoring for a 'one-price-for-all' to simplify pricing? I dunno, you can't please everyone.


Keep in mind, that I am referring to Frazee as it was in the 80's and 90's. They were obviously not a national company, but I have never seen a paint company anywhere that was as dominant as frazee was in Socal them. They had about 70-75% percent of the market according to SW at the time.

I was out there when Home depot threatened to kick out Dutchboy as their secondary line and although I wasn't involved in the discussion, being in the same office as the district office when the SW big wigs had a meeting on the subject, (come to think of it, they seemed to schedule a lot of meetings in San Diego on sunny Friday afternoons. Maybe that's why their spouses were waiting in their rental cars for them), and I was privy to some fairly loud discussions about how HD was being a pita because they wanted the SW label in their stores and not Dutchboy. The loudest and most vehement big wig against the idea of SW in HS is still one of the major decision makers at SW.

When Frazee did it, we had just about every painter in San Diego call us to set up an account. Stories of HD charging less than painters that had used the same product for 20-30 years were quite common. I wouldn't think so much about it if SW had put a different label on the Lowe's paint, but having the same paint in both places at different prices is the same thing they were, no make that HE, was so opposed too in the 90's with the HD thing. And it killed Frazee in socal in the long run. They went into receivership in the mid to late 90's, and if it weren't for a string of parent companies they wouldn't be here today as a SW brand.

Granted, SW has some big bucks to help them survive any flap over this, so that probably will be the difference.

I have a maintenance painter here in town buying 400 flat for $9.00 a gallon, so it could be done. I seriously doubt if that product line is leaving the factory at more than $4-6 dollars a gallon believe it or not. And the store managers at sw don't know because it gets marked up at least 4 times before it gets costed to them. Eliminate 3 of those mark-ups and the cost to Lowe's is pretty low.

I hope that what they are selling IS the Property Solutions and Painter's edge because that pricing would be much more fair to the professional painters. Actually no I don't hope that! I hope it is Duration and Cashmere so they piss you guys off and maybe you will try Pratt & Lambert for a change!


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> True dat. I don't agree with everything Uncle Sherwin decides, but this recent move looks to me like SW admitting to what everyone here says it should, namely, that the pricing is out of whack and needs to be simplified (and preferably lower). You don't have to go out and buy the new lines, but I think it'd be disingenuous to say they're still overpriced -- unless you think SW is overpriced at any price, which I recognize is the case for many on this forum. In that case, you're probably not the kind of person who really cares what your paint costs as long as it's under $100.
> 
> FWIW, I hear Ben Moore is hinting to it's dealers that it has a big reveal planned later this year. My local guy speculates that it's their first $100+ gallon of paint. Cheers.


 Also remember that SW has been on a buying spree the last few years, so their cash reserves are getting a little low. This seems to me to be another edition of the endless switching from a contractor oriented store to a retail oriented store and back and forth and back and forth forever that they have been doing for fifty years. 

I believe Benny Moore is going to put products into Home depot and give the highly trained and motivated HD employees fancy schmancy shirts to wear, thus proving to the world that they are the greatest of paint experts.


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## DrakeB

Proalliance coatings said:


> I believe Benny Moore is going to put products into Home depot and give the highly trained and motivated HD employees fancy schmancy shirts to wear, thus proving to the world that they are the greatest of paint experts.


I wouldn't worry too much about that lol. If BM even considered selling to the big boxes they would go under instantly.


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about that lol. If BM even considered selling to the big boxes they would go under instantly.


yeah that is a lot of paint experts to give shirts too!


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## woodcoyote

Woodford said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about that lol. If BM even considered selling to the big boxes they would go under instantly.



I've seen BM in places such as Ace and other hardware stores. Thats still a pretty big distribution point. So I don't think they would go under.


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## ShermanMoore

Proalliance coatings said:


> Also remember that SW has been on a buying spree the last few years, so their cash reserves are getting a little low. This seems to me to be another edition of the endless switching from a contractor oriented store to a retail oriented store and back and forth and back and forth forever that they have been doing for fifty years.


If SW didn't put products in the big boxes, they'd be giving up a huge portion of the market without a fight. Trying to get the general population into specialty stores is an increasingly difficult task, especially the younger crowd. Some time ago SW was asked to put ProMar 200 in HD, and SW declined. They aren't going back on that now, they've come out with new branding for the big box products so that the good old products everyone is used to are still company store exclusive. In my opinion this move is going to strengthen SW in the long run because I think the big box is the way of the future for the retail paint market. I can tell you that SW market share in traditional BM towns like Boston, Philadelphia, and NYC is also growing at huge rates, so I don't see how the professional side of things is gonna suffer too much either. I wouldn't be too surprised if over the next decade or two BM becomes largely irrelevant, used almost only by old-school pot-and-brush guys and froo-froo designers. Nothing against the paint, I just think the independent-only business model is doomed against company-owned stores on the wholesale side and big boxes on the retail side.


----------



## ShermanMoore

woodcoyote said:


> I've seen BM in places such as Ace and other hardware stores. Thats still a pretty big distribution point. So I don't think they would go under.


I think hardware stores may eventually be the only place you can get BM, outside boutique-y independents in larger cities. In the wider market, I just don't see how they are gonna fend off the bigger hitters in the long run. The big boys have really gotten their sh*t together over the last couple decades in terms of marketing.


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> I think hardware stores may eventually be the only place you can get BM, outside boutique-y independents in larger cities. In the wider market, I just don't see how they are gonna fend off the bigger hitters in the long run. The big boys have really gotten their sh*t together over the last couple decades in terms of marketing.


Sadly, I think ShermanMoore may be right in his prediction here. The new generation of buyers these days flock to the big box stores these days with nary a thought of the independent suppliers. Whether It be paint, hardware or whatever, they are inundated with the marketing blitz from the the big boys. As far as many of them know, HD, SW, etc. are the only game in town.

We elders In the trades know better about the poor service and quality from the big boxes, but we are fast becoming near extinct.


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## Gough

slinger58 said:


> Sadly, I think ShermanMoore may be right in his prediction here. The new generation of buyers these days flock to the big box stores these days with nary a thought of the independent suppliers. Whether It be paint, hardware or whatever, they are inundated with the marketing blitz from the the big boys. As far as many of them know, HD, SW, etc. are the only game in town.
> 
> We elders In the trades know better about the poor service and quality from the big boxes, but we are fast becoming near extinct.


As I've posted before, it feels a little like Gresham's Law for paint.


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## Rbriggs82

Okay, I've stayed out of this thread a for a while just gathering facts. 

I am an admitted SW fanboy. I like their products and the service from MY store is second to none. :yes: 

After reading everything I have to admit I'm not going to be happy if the stuff at Lowes turns out to be relabeled Superpaint for $27gal. I get both superpaint and cashmere for $32. If this is truly the case I'd literally be paying more for a just a label. 

If it turns out to be promar 200 then I don't care (I pay $20 for that) superpaint well then I'm gonna have to have a chat with my rep.


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## PACman

slinger58 said:


> Sadly, I think ShermanMoore may be right in his prediction here. The new generation of buyers these days flock to the big box stores these days with nary a thought of the independent suppliers. Whether It be paint, hardware or whatever, they are inundated with the marketing blitz from the the big boys. As far as many of them know, HD, SW, etc. are the only game in town.
> 
> We elders In the trades know better about the poor service and quality from the big boxes, but we are fast becoming near extinct.


Several years ago I had to move from Columbus back home because of some family health issues. At that time I took a job with menard's and they were opening a new store in the area. As I was setting up the department, I was sent to their Eau Claire headquarters for their annual paint department trade show and training. At the time I was impressed with what they were saying about what they were planning to do with their paint department.

I actually believed as most of you do that the small stores, company owned and independent in particular were on a path to extinction. It only took about a month for them to change my mind, and that belief has only been strengthened in the last 4 years. They have no inclination at all towards customer service, being all talk to "sell" their stores more to their employees than anything else.They have virtually no concept of proper management or customer service. Just how to play up the marketing and advertising provided by their company. I have been in the retail home improvement business in some form or another since 1984, and I have seen the giants fall because if their ineptitude. Remember Payless Cashways? Builders Square? Builders Emporium? Hechinger's? There is quite a list of them.

K-mart for example. No company is immune from failure. None of them. And it is only a matter of time before the generally crappy service and disinterested employees cause them grief. Lowe's and Home Depot have always struggled with this, and as they cycle more and more yes men through their store management, they will struggle more and more to remain valid businesses.

It only takes a few product law suits to turn the knife, as Lumber Liquidators is soon to find out. So far the box stores have been able to deflect product accountability back on to the manufacturers, but that will not last forever. 

A perfect example. My 84 year old mother went into Home Depot yesterday to buy something, I don't remember what it was, and she commented that there were several employees right at the door that pointed her in the general direction of where it was. When she got to the department, she waited and looked for it and/or and employee to help her find it for 30 minutes. She left, drove back to her town, went into the local True Value store. and was in and out in less then 10 minutes.

Sooner or later, the instant gratification generation is going to figure this out, regardless of whatever marketing is being injected into their gray matter, and there will be changes.

But like I said, whether this is a good idea or not for SW, it is a BIG change in their core beliefs. And I believe that it is driven by HGTV and their advertising reach more so then anything else, which could be good or bad. Just have to wait and see.

In the meantime, I have done my hillbilly lab testing on the Ovation, Promar 200, and Superpaint, and there is no way in hell that Ovation is anything less a product than Superpaint. It may be something different, maybe a new formulation, but the performance is far above Promar 200 in my lab shack. For one thing it is about 5 time whiter then 200, and it lays out and hides much better.


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## DrakeB

Dunno, I'm encouraged on a daily basis by young people coming into my store. It only takes one time for a big box to screw someone over, especially with paint, for people to turn elsewhere. I'm great at cleaning up after big box messes. BM may find itself filling a different niche than it does today at some point, but as someone who gets to see the "inside" of what's going on, I'm really not terribly worried about our future. BM may not have the market share of SW, but "smaller" doesn't mean "less profitable" or "less successful."


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## SkinnyAdam

I'm 26, run a crew of 3 guys and I've been through every supplier in town. Sherwin is a joke - I don't want a 19 year old mixing my paint. Just yesterday the MANAGER of the store hands my wife two completely wrong samples (she likes their color lines for samples only) and just says "oops they must have been hiding under a piece of paper." I feel insulted half the times I walk out of there.

We have Rodda in my area and I've never been happier. We sell customers on how "a local company's paint is formulated for our specific environment," and "it's more Eco-friendly because it doesn't travel as far to get here," and "you're not paying a national corporate infrastructure fee built into every gallon." 

Also, $21/gal interior flat. Hell yeah! I'll never turn back!!


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## PACman

SkinnyAdam said:


> I'm 26, run a crew of 3 guys and I've been through every supplier in town. Sherwin is a joke - I don't want a 19 year old mixing my paint. Just yesterday the MANAGER of the store hands my wife two completely wrong samples (she likes their color lines for samples only) and just says "oops they must have been hiding under a piece of paper." I feel insulted half the times I walk out of there.
> 
> We have Rodda in my area and I've never been happier. We sell customers on how "a local company's paint is formulated for our specific environment," and "it's more Eco-friendly because it doesn't travel as far to get here," and "you're not paying a national corporate infrastructure fee built into every gallon."
> 
> Also, $21/gal interior flat. Hell yeah! I'll never turn back!!


Wish I had a couple painter's like you here in north central Ohio!


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## Will22

Paint companies are out to sell volume, not just to certain customers at the exclusion of others. That would be a dumb business practice, otherwise. In selling consumers, they make a great margin, while they have to discount for painting contractors. By selling through retailers, they don't pay brick and mortar /lease costs, and the retailers are open later than stores are.

The service in some retailers is not reliable, but from what is noted here, some of the company stores have the same problem.


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## hammerhead

Asked the sales rep today about when getting parts for my sprayer. He said Ovation wasnt the exact same as promar 200 but close. Showcase was the equivalent to superpaint.


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## DrakeB

Will22 said:


> Paint companies are out to sell volume, not just to certain customers at the exclusion of others. That would be a dumb business practice, otherwise. In selling consumers, they make a great margin, while they have to discount for painting contractors. By selling through retailers, they don't pay brick and mortar /lease costs, and the retailers are open later than stores are.
> 
> The service in some retailers is not reliable, but from what is noted here, some of the company stores have the same problem.


Respectfully, I disagree entirely. There's niche markets and companies that happily and successfully fit in them. WalMart isn't the only approach to sales.


----------



## PACman

hammerhead said:


> Asked the sales rep today about when getting parts for my sprayer. He said Ovation wasnt the exact same as promar 200 but close. Showcase was the equivalent to superpaint.


That could be. But I wonder if any employee of SW or Lowe's really knows for sure, and would they really be motivated to tell you? But price wise that makes sense.


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## ShermanMoore

hammerhead said:


> Asked the sales rep today about when getting parts for my sprayer. He said Ovation wasnt the exact same as promar 200 but close. Showcase was the equivalent to superpaint.


I'm sorry but your rep is mistaken. The old HGTV Home was 200 Zero, plain and simple. The new Ovation is SuperPaint. Read the data sheets and the labels for yourself.


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## ShermanMoore

Rbriggs82 said:


> Okay, I've stayed out of this thread a for a while just gathering facts.
> 
> I am an admitted SW fanboy. I like their products and the service from MY store is second to none. :yes:
> 
> After reading everything I have to admit I'm not going to be happy if the stuff at Lowes turns out to be relabeled Superpaint for $27gal. I get both superpaint and cashmere for $32. If this is truly the case I'd literally be paying more for a just a label.
> 
> If it turns out to be promar 200 then I don't care (I pay $20 for that) superpaint well then I'm gonna have to have a chat with my rep.


That's a pretty wide gap between 200 and the next step up. Might want to get on the horn with your rep about that at least. 

And it's funny, near me the SW store's all have longtime employees who know all their customers and it's the BM stores that have a new batch of 19 year-olds every month.


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## SemiproJohn

Gough said:


> As I've posted before, it feels a little like Gresham's Law for paint.


Always teaching me...making me learn something. I admit I had to Google Gresham's Law.


----------



## SemiproJohn

Rbriggs82 said:


> Okay, I've stayed out of this thread a for a while just gathering facts.
> 
> I am an admitted SW fanboy. I like their products and the service from MY store is second to none. :yes:
> 
> After reading everything I have to admit I'm not going to be happy if the stuff at Lowes turns out to be relabeled Superpaint for $27gal. I get both superpaint and cashmere for $32. If this is truly the case I'd literally be paying more for a just a label.
> 
> If it turns out to be promar 200 then I don't care (I pay $20 for that) superpaint well then I'm gonna have to have a chat with my rep.


I feel much the same way RBriggs. And I pay around the same for Superpaint and Cashmere, my most used SW products.


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## slinger58

SemiproJohn said:


> Always teaching me...making me learn something. I admit I had to Google Gresham's Law.


I know what you mean, but I never tell him I had Google it. Wouldn't want him to think he was smarter than me and get the big head! Lol


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## paintpimp

If the other product is super paintish. Why be upset? Buy the ovation and save money. Lowes business helped you reduce your cost.


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## paintpimp

Or if you buy 200 in the 27 range, but ovation and step up quality.


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## hammerhead

ShermanMoore said:


> I'm sorry but your rep is mistaken. The old HGTV Home was 200 Zero, plain and simple. The new Ovation is SuperPaint. Read the data sheets and the labels for yourself.


I'm not doubting you i haven't had a chance to look at the labels yet. $27 seems awful cheap for superpaint.


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## slinger58

Rbriggs82 said:


> Okay, I've stayed out of this thread a for a while just gathering facts. I am an admitted SW fanboy. I like their products and the service from MY store is second to none. :yes: After reading everything I have to admit I'm not going to be happy if the stuff at Lowes turns out to be relabeled Superpaint for $27gal. I get both superpaint and cashmere for $32. If this is truly the case I'd literally be paying more for a just a label. If it turns out to be promar 200 then I don't care (I pay $20 for that) superpaint well then I'm gonna have to have a chat with my rep.


 SW has some good products, I've used enough of them over the years to know from my own experience. And as far as service, the store that I frequent has great service and personnel. My beef with SW has always been the inconsistent pricing issue. But as Ryan illustrates, everyone's situation is different. He has a good working relationship with SW. I think Dave has mentioned a BM store in his area that he refuses to deal with. Point being, everyone's situation is different. If it's working for you, then all is well. Carry on.


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## woodcoyote

hammerhead said:


> I'm not doubting you i haven't had a chance to look at the labels yet. $27 seems awful cheap for superpaint.


Agreed. I'll have to take a look at the data sheets. 

But the data sheet doesn't say everything.

Both products could have a label reading excellent coverage, but not say (they would never say) what resins are used in the mixture. So....it's a bit misleading.


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## Different Strokes

slinger58 said:


> SW has some good products, I've used enough of them over the years to know from my own experience. And as far as service, the store that I frequent has great service and personnel. My beef with SW has always been the inconsistent pricing issue. But as Ryan illustrates, everyone's situation is different. He has a good working relationship with SW. I think Dave has mentioned a BM store in his area that he refuses to deal with. Point being, everyone's situation is different. If it's working for you, then all is well. Carry on.


This is exactly right. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to get a relationship with the Sherwin Williams stores around here because the managers slot is a revolving door. I've made a conscious effort to be more selective, and ignore my loyal to a fault ways this year. I've had a few jobs that were one color, lots of primer and paint. I think my savings to date this year alone is over $3,000. Yeah I need to order from home depot, but honestly after getting in a groove it's not bad at all. Using Glidden Ultra Hide 220 Eggshell and Glidden PVA primer just paid for my family vacation to Disney, and I was able to do it without the worry of using a lesser product than Promar 200 which is the norm around here. UH220 eggshell *$16.50 per gallon & Glidden PVA primer $6.50 per gallon using the pro paint rewards program. I won't slam SW products because I still do use and enjoy them. But if they won't budge on my P200 price, then i'll just buy elsewhere, and also buy my sundries elsewhere too. Let them make up their margins on some other smaller outfit, but it won't be me anymore. If I wanted to constantly feel like I was pulling teeth I would have been a dentist.


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## Different Strokes

Different Strokes said:


> This is exactly right. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to get a relationship with the Sherwin Williams stores around here because the managers slot is a revolving door. I've made a conscious effort to be more selective, and ignore my loyal to a fault ways this year. I've had a few jobs that were one color, lots of primer and paint. I think my savings to date this year alone is over $3,000. Yeah I need to order from home depot, but honestly after getting in a groove it's not bad at all. Using Glidden Ultra Hide 220 Eggshell and Glidden PVA primer just paid for my family vacation to Disney, and I was able to do it without the worry of using a lesser product than Promar 200 which is the norm around here. UH220 eggshell *$16.50 per gallon & Glidden PVA primer $6.50 per gallon using the pro paint rewards program. I won't slam SW products because I still do use and enjoy them. But if they won't budge on my P200 price, then i'll just buy elsewhere, and also buy my sundries elsewhere too. Let them make up their margins on some other smaller outfit, but it won't be me anymore. If I wanted to constantly feel like I was pulling teeth I would have been a dentist.


Actual savings are closer to $2000 year to date. My mistake. Still a significant savings.


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## PACman

woodcoyote said:


> Agreed. I'll have to take a look at the data sheets.
> 
> But the data sheet doesn't say everything.
> 
> Both products could have a label reading excellent coverage, but not say (they would never say) what resins are used in the mixture. So....it's a bit misleading.


just about every retail label is much more than misleading in one way or another. Unfortunately being deceptive and trumping up your product is the only way most paint retailers have to sell their product. How do you quantify a quality level without a knowledgeable salesperson? It used to be by putting a **year warranty or one coat coverage on the front of the can and then putting all the little details about that warranty in fine print on the back. Now it is Paint and Primer and lately sealer in one.

Would any manufacturer of ANY product say things like " this paint is crap and won't cover worth a dam*" or "these crackers taste like cardboard soaked in mineral spirits". (I have had some before, from India. They tasted just like mineral spirits smell). The lack of a consistent sales capability has made lying on the package common place, but it has a much more detrimental effect on a product that could ruin your home like paint. It is a shame that the average consumer can't see this as a problem until it is too late. Think of all the misleading marketing and lies that have happened over the last several years with the deck restore products. And people still buy them and the brand that made them with no inclination that there ever was a problem.

Being misleading or at the very least secretive is how SW is going to be able to sell Superpaint at Lowe's for less then what the average contractor price is. They are smart enough to do a label change and not be dumb enough to even so much as hint to their employees that the paints could be the same. If they don't really know the truth, then they can't tell people what the real truth is. The best thing to do as a consumer is to try the product. I have. Of course in my hillbilly paint lab. But my opinion is that it IS Duration that they have relabeled as Showcase and Superpaint they have relabeled as Ovation. Only actual field use can prove this out.

Just some more to consider about this development. It is going to be interesting to see the marketing on this.


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## DrakeB

ShermanMoore said:


> And it's funny, near me the SW store's all have longtime employees who know all their customers and it's the BM stores that have a new batch of 19 year-olds every month.


Very good lesson to be learned from this: where you shop should be dictated by what works for you. Not every store from every company is the same, regardless of what that company is. I humbly suggest that independents are _usually_ giving much better service and care and time to their customers, but clearly that's not always the case.

It's all about finding a system that works for you. If you're using SW and the paint works for ya and their service works for you, then great. I happen to think the BM products, on the whole, are much better quality than the SW lines- but at the end of the day, that's only one part of what makes a good purchasing system.


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> Very good lesson to be learned from this: where you shop should be dictated by what works for you. Not every store from every company is the same, regardless of what that company is. I humbly suggest that independents are _usually_ giving much better service and care and time to their customers, but clearly that's not always the case.
> 
> It's all about finding a system that works for you. If you're using SW and the paint works for ya and their service works for you, then great. I happen to think the BM products, on the whole, are much better quality than the SW lines- but at the end of the day, that's only one part of what makes a good purchasing system.


yeah but I give away free t-shirts and coffee.


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## DrakeB

My coffee's better.


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## ShermanMoore

woodcoyote said:


> Agreed. I'll have to take a look at the data sheets.
> 
> But the data sheet doesn't say everything.
> 
> Both products could have a label reading excellent coverage, but not say (they would never say) what resins are used in the mixture. So....it's a bit misleading.



By reading the label I don't mean the marketing flannel, I mean the ingredients, which are listed proportionally. No two SW products have the same ingredients in the same proportions, that I've seen, except for relabels. These two products do. The MSDS confirms that the composition by weight of the pigments and extenders is identical and the PDS confirms that the volume and weight solids are the same. The only substantial difference I can find is that Ovation has a mildewcide additive.


----------



## DrakeB

ShermanMoore said:


> By reading the label I don't mean the marketing flannel, I mean the ingredients, which are listed proportionally. No two SW products have the same ingredients in the same proportions, that I've seen, except for relabels. These two products do. The MSDS confirms that the composition by weight of the pigments and extenders is identical and the PDS confirms that the volume and weight solids are the same. The only substantial difference I can find is that Ovation has a mildewcide additive.


Yah, it would be incredibly unusual for two differently formulated paints from the same company to have the exact same ratios with the same ingredients. Why would they waste R&D time to come out with a near-identical product? It's the same thing in a different can; one of them maybe had some mildewcide dumped in, or it may just not be declared on the older labeling.


----------



## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> By reading the label I don't mean the marketing flannel, I mean the ingredients, which are listed proportionally. No two SW products have the same ingredients in the same proportions, that I've seen, except for relabels. These two products do. The MSDS confirms that the composition by weight of the pigments and extenders is identical and the PDS confirms that the volume and weight solids are the same. The only substantial difference I can find is that Ovation has a mildewcide additive.


 yeah you gotta ignore the marketing bs. I see the same thing, basically just a mildewcide. Again i believe we ARE looking at a re-label of Superpaint to allow for a lower retail price. The 200 data sheet and the ovation sheet aren't very close. Showcase is closer to Duration.


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## PACman

And fyi, the Conco products at Menard's are the same as promar 200,400, and 700. And if you were to look, at much lower prices then the promar line typically is for contractors.


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## ShermanMoore

When you have as many brands and products as SW, you simply have to cross-fill cans here and there for efficiency's sake. It would be incredibly cumbersome and cost-prohibitive to make all those different contractor-grade products in varying batch sizes if they were all truly different. I wonder if I could figure out just how many labels ProMar 200 has across the country...


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## slinger58

Proalliance coatings said:


> And fyi, the Conco products at Menard's are the same as promar 200,400, and 700. And if you were to look, at much lower prices then the promar line typically is for contractors.


Say Proalliance, I just noticed your sig line. So I think instead of Pacman as a nickname, you should be _also known as_....Tater Salad. :thumbup:


Another Ron White fan. :yes:


----------



## ShermanMoore

Proalliance coatings said:


> yeah you gotta ignore the marketing bs. I see the same thing, basically just a mildewcide. Again i believe we ARE looking at a re-label of Superpaint to allow for a lower retail price. The 200 data sheet and the ovation sheet aren't very close. Showcase is closer to Duration.


My thoughts exactly. I think SW is realizing that, with Behr and Valspar coming out with some paints that cover so well for the price it's scary, they can't get away with charging what they do for much longer. This is a way to ease into a price decrease while still getting a decent buck for Super from those who will pay it. And for those who don't want to pay for the Super label, "Well, we have this Ovation that I think will remind you of Super Paint for a few bucks less..."


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## ShermanMoore

slinger58 said:


> Say Proalliance, I just noticed your sig line. So I think instead of Pacman as a nickname, you should be _also known as_....Tater Salad. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Another Ron White fan. :yes:



Oh geez, now I finally get that sig line. I was looking at it thinking about what it could possibly be referring to, but now I can finally hear the emphasis on the right words in my head.


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## SemiproJohn

Now that you guys are delving into this SW re-labeling conundrum, didn't one of you in a different thread claim that Superpaint was really just ProMar200 with an extender or something added? 

I'm starting to think that a lot of "different" SW paint lines are ProMar 200 with very minor adjustments. Maybe not Emerald and Duration, but.............


----------



## DrakeB

slinger58 said:


> Say Proalliance, I just noticed your sig line. So I think instead of Pacman as a nickname, you should be _also known as_....Tater Salad. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Another Ron White fan. :yes:


I worked hard thinking up PACman, you know


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## paintpimp

You can compare Msds sheets. Two products can match. All it's telling you is percentages. It doesn't tell you the quality of the raw materials. Or how fine some are ground before use.


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## ShermanMoore

SemiproJohn said:


> Now that you guys are delving into this SW re-labeling conundrum, didn't one of you in a different thread claim that Superpaint was really just ProMar200 with an extender or something added?
> 
> I'm starting to think that a lot of "different" SW paint lines are ProMar 200 with very minor adjustments. Maybe not Emerald and Duration, but.............


Way different products John. Night and day difference in terms of hide, viscosity, durability. I mean, at the end of the day there's only a few bucks' difference between the best and worst paints strictly in terms of raw material costs, so in a way all of SW's paints are permutations of 200, but I think it's very safe to say 200 and Super are in different classes altogether, as Proalliance saw in his own testing.


----------



## SemiproJohn

ShermanMoore said:


> Way different products John. Night and day difference in terms of hide, viscosity, durability. I mean, at the end of the day there's only a few bucks' difference between the best and worst paints strictly in terms of raw material costs, so in a way all of SW's paints are permutations of 200, but I think it's very safe to say 200 and Super are in different classes altogether, as Proalliance saw in his own testing.


This is actually what I want to hear. I'm no chemist, and admittedly, I'm lazy when it comes to comparing lots of data sheets. I have always assumed that paint companies have operated, for the most part, in good faith. I have assumed that they put better materials in the more expensive lines. Other than titanium dioxide, I don't know what is so expensive in a given can of paint. 

Bottom line...I don't want to find out that I'm getting Superpaint or Cashmere for 5 dollars a gallon more than Suzy Homemaker can get it at Lowe's.


----------



## Rbriggs82

SemiproJohn said:


> This is actually what I want to hear. I'm no chemist, and admittedly, I'm lazy when it comes to comparing lots of data sheets. I have always assumed that paint companies have operated, for the most part, in good faith. I have assumed that they put better materials in the more expensive lines. Other than titanium dioxide, I don't know what is so expensive in a given can of paint.
> 
> Bottom line...I don't want to find out that I'm getting Superpaint or Cashmere for 5 dollars a gallon more than Suzy Homemaker can get it at Lowe's.


Yeah me neither... I need to get my hands on ovation satin. All I need is to crack open a can tinted to something greenish and I'll know for sure whether or not it superpaint. 

For the last year or so I can't seem to get the tint mixed in right. No matter how many times I shake or stir a five looks like oil on pavement. Somehow it dries in alright in the wall. It would be very telling if ovation satin looked the same way. :yes:


----------



## ShermanMoore

Rbriggs82 said:


> Yeah me neither... I need to get my hands on ovation satin. All I need is to crack open a can tinted to something greenish and I'll know for sure whether or not it superpaint.
> 
> For the last year or so I can't seem to get the tint mixed in right. No matter how many times I shake or stir a five looks like oil on pavement. Somehow it dries in alright in the wall. It would be very telling if ovation satin looked the same way. :yes:


I would say if you are serious, make sure you get the Ovation from an SW store. I do not know if SW are shipping their own colorant system to Lowes (seems unlikely). If Lowes uses a different colorant system, you may notice performance differences in colors with more than a few drops of colorant. I'm not sure if Lowe's will use Zero VOC colorant like SW.


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## Rbriggs82

This is what I'm talking about, fresh from the shaker...

SuperPaint Satin bought in PA 2012 










Fast forward to South Carolina 2015 and it still looks the same with most colors. It's the only SW paint I see with this problem.

I'm gonna buy a gal of Ovation satin from SW and see what it looks like.


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> Way different products John. Night and day difference in terms of hide, viscosity, durability. I mean, at the end of the day there's only a few bucks' difference between the best and worst paints strictly in terms of raw material costs, so in a way all of SW's paints are permutations of 200, but I think it's very safe to say 200 and Super are in different classes altogether, as Proalliance saw in his own testing.


There's certainly more than a few bucks difference in the selling price of 200 vs. SuperPaint, Duration & Emerald. Are there other cost factors involved in making the better lines of paint or is that just more profit realized by SW?


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## slinger58

SemiproJohn said:


> This is actually what I want to hear. I'm no chemist, and admittedly, I'm lazy when it comes to comparing lots of data sheets. I have always assumed that paint companies have operated, for the most part, in good faith. I have assumed that they put better materials in the more expensive lines. Other than titanium dioxide, I don't know what is so expensive in a given can of paint.
> 
> Bottom line...I don't want to find out that I'm getting Superpaint or Cashmere for 5 dollars a gallon more than Suzy Homemaker can get it at Lowe's.


Same here, John. That's why we have PT....get the technical info we need _and_ talk about "womanized" decks. One stop shopping! :yes:


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## ShermanMoore

slinger58 said:


> There's certainly more than a few bucks difference in the selling price of 200 vs. SuperPaint, Duration & Emerald. Are there other cost factors involved in making the better lines of paint or is that just more profit realized by SW?


Both. Paints like Harmony (removes formaldehyde from the air), Natura (now plant based), Aura (pigment-encapsulating resin), etc. take a great deal of expensive R&D to develop. More goes into the end-of-the-day cost of a gallon of paint than just the cost of the raw materials actually in the can. All the big brands also do national advertising campaigns for their premium coatings as well, and none for contractor grade stuff. The higher prices for more premium paints reflect the need to recoup on R&D and ad campaigns, etc.

To be sure, however, there is also a good deal of simply trying to parlay the unique benefits of X paint over more generic stuff like ProMar 200 into $$$. ProMar 200 is a paint that everyone has their own version of, but once you have a paint like Aura or Harmony with truly unique characteristics, you can transform a few bucks more in raw materials into much more because that little tweak in ingredients makes a big difference in the end result, which people will pay a premium for.


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## slinger58

^^^^^^^
Yeah, that's one of the reasons cited for why the regional suppliers can sell for less....no national advertising and not a lot of advertising at the local level either.


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## CRS

*It's all a battle for market share*

Marketing. SW in Lowes is bad for Valspar. 

All the big companies relabel products.... different label...different price. It's a great way to squeak out some extra $$$ for the bottom line.

The overall paint market as far as growth is concerned has been in decline since the late 80's. That is why SW gobbles up the smaller regional companies, obtain market share. If you can't earn it.... buy it. I can name several small strong 'great' regional companies that have been gobbled up by SW and destroyed/eliminated.

My bet is that SW will battle to acquire Valspar, at least all the architectural coatings divisions/ successful products, etc.

Sad to see. Many good products will just vanish.

SW finally realized that their retail stores don't get it.


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## ShermanMoore

slinger58 said:


> ^^^^^^^
> Yeah, that's one of the reasons cited for why the regional suppliers can sell for less....no national advertising and not a lot of advertising at the local level either.


Yes and no. Huge companies like PPG and SW have economies of scale so that ounce for ounce, they can produce cheaper. Between production capacity and having volume on their side when purchasing raw materials, production is cheaper for them. I don't know that much about PPG, but SW owns their own trucking company to do the shipping so that it is cost neutral. They have something like 12 plants around the country producing, so they are never all that far from market. SW has regional products, near me the main ones are Master Hide and Quali-Kote. These products are actually relatively expensive to make for their quality level even though they are never advertised because so little is actually produced compared to the national products. SW is the biggest paint company in the US market, they can sell any paint for any price they want. I've seen stuff that made me sh*t a brick. The question is what price do they want, and the answer to that varies from region to region and district to district, and even within that district from city to suburb. SW can be _very_ aggressive with pricing when the right managers and reps are running the show.


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> Yes and no. Huge companies like PPG and SW have economies of scale so that ounce for ounce, they can produce cheaper. Between production capacity and having volume on their side when purchasing raw materials, production is cheaper for them. I don't know that much about PPG, but SW owns their own trucking company to do the shipping so that it is cost neutral. They have something like 12 plants around the country producing, so they are never all that far from market. SW has regional products, near me the main ones are Master Hide and Quali-Kote. These products are actually relatively expensive to make for their quality level even though they are never advertised because so little is actually produced compared to the national products. SW is the biggest paint company in the US market, they can sell any paint for any price they want. I've seen stuff that made me sh*t a brick. The question is what price do they want, and the answer to that varies from region to region and district to district, and even within that district from city to suburb. SW can be _very_ aggressive with pricing when the right managers and reps are running the show.


Very informative post there, Sherman. Makes me wonder if there will come a time when SW corners enough of the market that Uncle Sam will go after them like they did Microsoft and Ma Bell (back in the day).


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## ShermanMoore

slinger58 said:


> Very informative post there, Sherman. Makes me wonder if there will come a time when SW corners enough of the market that Uncle Sam will go after them like they did Microsoft and Ma Bell (back in the day).


I think that's unlikely any time soon. As long as PPG, Behr, and BM are around SW won't capture that kind of market share. But they did come close in Mexico, which is why the Mexican government blocked their acquisition of Comex in Mexico. I think BM is on the rocks, they can't seem to keep a CEO lately and they are raising prices despite already being regarded as the expensive brand, plus PPG is buying up large independent BM dealers and SW is exploding in traditional BM strongholds like NYC and Boston. Independent dealers sold 25% of house paint in 2003, ten years later that is down to 16%. But Behr and PPG are going to be around to keep SW in check as far as I can tell.


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## Different Strokes

ShermanMoore said:


> I think that's unlikely any time soon. As long as PPG, Behr, and BM are around SW won't capture that kind of market share. But they did come close in Mexico, which is why the Mexican government blocked their acquisition of Comex in Mexico. I think BM is on the rocks, they can't seem to keep a CEO lately and they are raising prices despite already being regarded as the expensive brand, plus PPG is buying up large independent BM dealers and SW is exploding in traditional BM strongholds like NYC and Boston. Independent dealers sold 25% of house paint in 2003, ten years later that is down to 16%. But Behr and PPG are going to be around to keep SW in check as far as I can tell.


ShermanMoore - I'm glad you chimed in on this thread, I enjoy your posts. One thing I've noticed from talking to other members. It would appear as though the majority of the contractors (I've spoken to) in southern states get much better pricing than we do up North. For example, I'm in PA and pay around $27 per gallon of Promar 200 egg. A guy spending the same i do per year at SW who lives in say Alabama is paying $18 per gallon. Are all these comparisons I do coincidences, or is there a reason for the lower pricing down south. Sometimes I wonder if SW list prices vary by region as well.


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## SemiproJohn

Different Strokes said:


> ShermanMoore - I'm glad you chimed in on this thread, I enjoy your posts. One thing I've noticed from talking to other members. It would appear as though the majority of the contractors (I've spoken to) in southern states get much better pricing than we do up North. For example, I'm in PA and pay around $27 per gallon of Promar 200 egg. A guy spending the same i do per year at SW who lives in say Alabama is paying $18 per gallon. Are all these comparisons I do coincidences, or is there a reason for the lower pricing down south. Sometimes I wonder if SW list prices vary by region as well.


There is a reason (for lower pricing down South)...our wages are way, way below what are offered up North. No real unions here to at least preserve a decent "floor," and the "right to work" states usually have poorer wages.

I don't have any hard evidence to back what I just wrote, just an opinion that I believe would be backed by hard evidence. I ain't got time for that!


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> I think that's unlikely any time soon. As long as PPG, Behr, and BM are around SW won't capture that kind of market share. But they did come close in Mexico, which is why the Mexican government blocked their acquisition of Comex in Mexico. I think BM is on the rocks, they can't seem to keep a CEO lately and they are raising prices despite already being regarded as the expensive brand, plus PPG is buying up large independent BM dealers and SW is exploding in traditional BM strongholds like NYC and Boston. Independent dealers sold 25% of house paint in 2003, ten years later that is down to 16%. But Behr and PPG are going to be around to keep SW in check as far as I can tell.


Speaking only from my local perspective, BM is on the rocks. The traffic in the stores around here has dropped dramatically over the years. The BM stores around here have been owned by the same family for a long time. For awhile I thought being so top heavy was the reason for their prices being so high. But maybe their costs from BM is a factor as well.


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## ShermanMoore

Different Strokes said:


> ShermanMoore - I'm glad you chimed in on this thread, I enjoy your posts. One thing I've noticed from talking to other members. It would appear as though the majority of the contractors (I've spoken to) in southern states get much better pricing than we do up North. For example, I'm in PA and pay around $27 per gallon of Promar 200 egg. A guy spending the same i do per year at SW who lives in say Alabama is paying $18 per gallon. Are all these comparisons I do coincidences, or is there a reason for the lower pricing down south. Sometimes I wonder if SW list prices vary by region as well.


List prices are consistent across the country. One reason for what you're experiencing price-wise is that SW is far more aggressive in the South and Southwest, their division execs want volume over margins. Our division has been a dinosaur in that regard, but the president who took over several months ago is changing all that. He saw what aggressive pricing did for those regions and wants to turn the NE around that way, which is how SW has been booting BM out of the metro areas in the NE. If you're not in a metro area, that mentality may take a while to get to you, if it ever does. Individual store managers and reps are the only way your pricing changes. And unfortunately for you, no one will just drop your price unless they feel like you're gonna walk or they don't realize how much you spend elsewhere, if you do. Or possibly they're inept, not a remote possibility in this field.


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## slinger58

ShermanMoore said:


> List prices are consistent across the country. One reason for what you're experiencing price-wise is that SW is far more aggressive in the South and Southwest, their division execs want volume over margins. Our division has been a dinosaur in that regard, but the president who took over several months ago is changing all that. He saw what aggressive pricing did for those regions and wants to turn the NE around that way, which is how SW has been booting BM out of the metro areas in the NE. If you're not in a metro area, that mentality may take a while to get to you, if it ever does. Individual store managers and reps are the only way your pricing changes. And unfortunately for you, no one will just drop your price unless they feel like you're gonna walk or they don't realize how much you spend elsewhere, if you do. Or possibly they're inept, not a remote possibility in this field.


Lol. There's a sig line.


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## ShermanMoore

slinger58 said:


> Speaking only from my local perspective, BM is on the rocks. The traffic in the stores around here has dropped dramatically over the years. The BM stores around here have been owned by the same family for a long time. For awhile I thought being so top heavy was the reason for their prices being so high. But maybe their costs from BM is a factor as well.


Same around here. We don't have many to begin with and a couple have recently closed up. SW is pretty top-heavy too, the problem is in the business model. BM has to make a tidy profit selling to the dealer, and then the dealer has to make a profit selling to you. SW and PPG make the paint they sell, so they can get stupid on pricing if they have to since there is no middle man. And yes, BM has pretty high costs for its dealers. Everyone thinks the dealers mark the stuff up like 300-500%, but in reality the dealer generally grosses 30-50 points on the sale. Now I know BM can get crazy with pricing in some cases, I've seen price sheets for the larger markets where contractors got Ultra Spec in the low teens. But in general, your dealer is making $10-20 per gallon on the good stuff and $5-10/gal if they give you good UltraSpec pricing.


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## ShermanMoore

I used to work for a BM dealer, if that's not obvious already haha.


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## PACman

slinger58 said:


> Say Proalliance, I just noticed your sig line. So I think instead of Pacman as a nickname, you should be _also known as_....Tater Salad. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Another Ron White fan. :yes:


 If you knew morse code you would already know that.


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## PACman

SemiproJohn said:


> Now that you guys are delving into this SW re-labeling conundrum, didn't one of you in a different thread claim that Superpaint was really just ProMar200 with an extender or something added?
> 
> I'm starting to think that a lot of "different" SW paint lines are ProMar 200 with very minor adjustments. Maybe not Emerald and Duration, but.............


 I was told in the late eighties that Superpaint was Promar 200 with a drag additive put in so DIY'ers would instinctively put more paint on the substrate. That's how they got the original "20 year" life out of it. And i seriously doubt that they have made many changes to it yet.


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> Both. Paints like Harmony (removes formaldehyde from the air), Natura (now plant based), Aura (pigment-encapsulating resin), etc. take a great deal of expensive R&D to develop. More goes into the end-of-the-day cost of a gallon of paint than just the cost of the raw materials actually in the can. All the big brands also do national advertising campaigns for their premium coatings as well, and none for contractor grade stuff. The higher prices for more premium paints reflect the need to recoup on R&D and ad campaigns, etc.
> 
> To be sure, however, there is also a good deal of simply trying to parlay the unique benefits of X paint over more generic stuff like ProMar 200 into $$$. ProMar 200 is a paint that everyone has their own version of, but once you have a paint like Aura or Harmony with truly unique characteristics, you can transform a few bucks more in raw materials into much more because that little tweak in ingredients makes a big difference in the end result, which people will pay a premium for.


 One of the big differentials in cost between a commercial grade (promar) and a DIY grade(Superpaint,durations) is the added cost of "covering" the warranty. When a paint is labelled with certain warranties, there is a substantial cost markup to compensate the manufacturer for warranty payouts. You certainly don't think this comes out of their profits do you? It is tacked on to the cost markup between the plant and the stores. Again I was told many years ago, that this markup is typically 15-20% of the cost transferred to the stores. The BAD part is that at the same time, i was told that SW pays out on less then 1/2 of 1% of all warranty claims. Most of that extra cost markup went for lab testing to discredit the warranty claims (such as no prep, incorrect primer, humidity to high at application, etc.) and to the legal department. Which seems kind of a scam to me. But it is well hidden so i guess no harm done. It just jacks the price up and drives the quality down in the long run. That's why when happy homeowner isn't happy with her gallon of a paint brand to remain unmentioned bought from an orange accented store again to remain unmentioned, they just give her credit or a new gallon. Never any compensation for time unless someone at the paint company to remain unmentioned got laid the night before.


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## PACman

slinger58 said:


> There's certainly more than a few bucks difference in the selling price of 200 vs. SuperPaint, Duration & Emerald. Are there other cost factors involved in making the better lines of paint or is that just more profit realized by SW?


 From what i have seen in factory costs through the years, there is never a cost differential that exceeds much more then $5-10 a gallon when the paint leaves the factory. Most of the cost difference comes when the product is marked up when it is delivered to the stores. This varies from company to company though. Lets just say that's how one of the two biggies does it. The other has a much lower store markup to just cover handling, and they require the stores to get a higher per unit profit to pay expenses. This is how they actually pay for all of the expenses that go into making, transporting, marketing, and warrantying their paint. One does it by marking up the cost, one does it by keeping the selling price (gross margin) higher.


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## PACman

slinger58 said:


> Same here, John. That's why we have PT....get the technical info we need _and_ talk about "womanized" decks. One stop shopping! :yes:


 I womanized a deck once.


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> Both. Paints like Harmony (removes formaldehyde from the air), Natura (now plant based), Aura (pigment-encapsulating resin), etc. take a great deal of expensive R&D to develop. More goes into the end-of-the-day cost of a gallon of paint than just the cost of the raw materials actually in the can. All the big brands also do national advertising campaigns for their premium coatings as well, and none for contractor grade stuff. The higher prices for more premium paints reflect the need to recoup on R&D and ad campaigns, etc.
> 
> To be sure, however, there is also a good deal of simply trying to parlay the unique benefits of X paint over more generic stuff like ProMar 200 into $$$. ProMar 200 is a paint that everyone has their own version of, but once you have a paint like Aura or Harmony with truly unique characteristics, you can transform a few bucks more in raw materials into much more because that little tweak in ingredients makes a big difference in the end result, which people will pay a premium for.


 They Harmony thing about reducing formaldehyde really cracks me up. Do you know what has been found to reduce formaldehyde emissions in Europe and Asia? Titanium Dioxide! They actually tout that buildings are being coated with "high titanium dioxide content" paint to reduce formaldehyde in the local atmosphere. So, there you have an example of a product that already has a high concentration of something that suddenly becomes something new and incredible and therefore, highly marketable. And able to be sold at a higher price. In fact in china, all latex paint "reduces" formaldehyde emissions.


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> I think that's unlikely any time soon. As long as PPG, Behr, and BM are around SW won't capture that kind of market share. But they did come close in Mexico, which is why the Mexican government blocked their acquisition of Comex in Mexico. I think BM is on the rocks, they can't seem to keep a CEO lately and they are raising prices despite already being regarded as the expensive brand, plus PPG is buying up large independent BM dealers and SW is exploding in traditional BM strongholds like NYC and Boston. Independent dealers sold 25% of house paint in 2003, ten years later that is down to 16%. But Behr and PPG are going to be around to keep SW in check as far as I can tell.


 Lets not forget, PPG as a whole is a much larger corporation then Sherwin Williams. What you are seeing as the architectural paints division is just a small part of them


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## PACman

ShermanMoore said:


> Same around here. We don't have many to begin with and a couple have recently closed up. SW is pretty top-heavy too, the problem is in the business model. BM has to make a tidy profit selling to the dealer, and then the dealer has to make a profit selling to you. SW and PPG make the paint they sell, so they can get stupid on pricing if they have to since there is no middle man. And yes, BM has pretty high costs for its dealers. Everyone thinks the dealers mark the stuff up like 300-500%, but in reality the dealer generally grosses 30-50 points on the sale. Now I know BM can get crazy with pricing in some cases, I've seen price sheets for the larger markets where contractors got Ultra Spec in the low teens. But in general, your dealer is making $10-20 per gallon on the good stuff and $5-10/gal if they give you good UltraSpec pricing.


 30-50 points. That's a good one.


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## DrakeB

I've said this before, but I'm not terribly worried about Benjamin Moore right now. They've gotten much of their high-level personnel stabilized with good, quality people. They're in full on expansion mode, with bigger advertising budget and tons of partnerships coming up. Yes, they recently had a cost increase, but this was the first in something like 4 years if I recall correctly. I agree that their pricing is on the cusp of being "too much," but I don't think it's there yet. Benjamin Moore's got a good niche (designers, high end work) and is doing decently but not "amazingly" in the market as a whole. They're also owned by Berkshire-Hathaway, so there's that, too.


On another note, re: cost of paint, definitely think R&D is the number one culprit for high end coatings. Benjamin Moore also uses in-house resins, which, contrary to what you might think, probably costs them a bit more since it's not manufactured in as high bulk as the resins provided to almost every other paint company, and they're (according to the marketing, at least  ) higher quality resins.


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## SemiproJohn

Well, I am having my first experience with Ovation, which was purchased by my realtor client at Lowe's. He bought a fiver in an eggshell, and the paint is sort of a yellow-gold in hue. I'm doing a bunch of work for him at his home office and he wanted to purchase the paint at Lowe's because he gets a 5% discount. Yippee!!!

After cutting and rolling (twice) two office rooms, the Ovation seemed a little more viscous and had better hide than the Promar 200 I have used in the past. It's been a couple of years since I've used any interior Superpaint (I switched to Cashmere), so I can't really compare Ovation to that. It didn't act like Cashmere to me.

All in all, I thought it performed decently, and was surprised that I didn't have to cut twice. In one office room I was going over a light gray and in the other the walls were almost an olive color. 

I think the fiver was around $120 before the whopping discount. I have asked two different "lead" employees at two local SW stores what they have been told this paint most closely resembles. One guy said it is "somewhere between the two (Promar 200 and Superpaint)," while the lady told me that they just won't tell her anything. 

I guess Ovation is sort of an entry-level grade DIY SW line. In terms of both price and performance, to me it is similar to the Behr Ultra. Decent, and suitable for flip jobs and for customers who want to fret about the price of paint.


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## DrakeB

Thanks for the info John!


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## PACman

SemiproJohn said:


> Well, I am having my first experience with Ovation, which was purchased by my realtor client at Lowe's. He bought a fiver in an eggshell, and the paint is sort of a yellow-gold in hue. I'm doing a bunch of work for him at his home office and he wanted to purchase the paint at Lowe's because he gets a 5% discount. Yippee!!!
> 
> After cutting and rolling (twice) two office rooms, the Ovation seemed a little more viscous and had better hide than the Promar 200 I have used in the past. It's been a couple of years since I've used any interior Superpaint (I switched to Cashmere), so I can't really compare Ovation to that. It didn't act like Cashmere to me.
> 
> All in all, I thought it performed decently, and was surprised that I didn't have to cut twice. In one office room I was going over a light gray and in the other the walls were almost an olive color.
> 
> I think the fiver was around $120 before the whopping discount. I have asked two different "lead" employees at two local SW stores what they have been told this paint most closely resembles. One guy said it is "somewhere between the two (Promar 200 and Superpaint)," while the lady told me that they just won't tell her anything.
> 
> I guess Ovation is sort of an entry-level grade DIY SW line. In terms of both price and performance, to me it is similar to the Behr Ultra. Decent, and suitable for flip jobs and for customers who want to fret about the price of paint.


 I find it is a pretty decent paint at it's price. SW will never tell their store employees what it is, that's a given. But doing side by side tests in my hillbilly paint lab, i can tell you that i believe it is superpaint. SW will never tell their employees because they don't want them to know exactly what kind of quality they are selling in their stores compared to their competition. They "sell" their store employees that their quality is second to none so the store employees can honestly feel that they are selling the best paint there is. They market their stuff to employees pretty aggressively. But when they move out into the real paint world, they find out the truth.


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## PACman

They also sell (Lowe's that is) two lower grades which i believe are labelled as a rental type quality and an economy quality. I am going to get some and test them to confirm my suspicion that these are relabeled 200 and 400.


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## DrakeB

Yeh, that sounds about right on all fronts. Guys I've talked to in local SW stores have all just been walking marketing material vomiting zombies.


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## Anchors Aweigh Paint

Help me understand, you more experienced Brothers of the Brush. 

I'm a huge fan of SW. I worked for one of the larger, more respected union decorator/paint shops in WI for almost 15 years before I broke off on my own. ProMar 200 was a staple at our shop until it changed it to the 'eco friendly' line, then it seemed to shift more to Hallman-Lindsay paints (I'm NOT a fan). 
We also used to use BM here and there, but it seemed that the paint changed and was a PIA to use, so we stopped using it. I think that was in 2009. BM products seem to drag more and not stretch as far (more stress on the wrist when cutting in, and will curtain/sag at the bottom of a wall when rolling. Aura has been a go-to for a guy I help, and thats where I see this problem). 

I can't recall a time where an SW paint didn't cover well or leave a great finish. I use a lot of acrylic/latex SuperPaint and ProMar 200. I have a rep I've known for years, the staff has always been spot on (well, except this grumpy old dude they had), and any issue is rectified pretty quickly.

I've used so many other paints by other manufacturers* - Glidden, Pittsburg, Mautz, BM, Hallman, Behr, Valspar, Dutch Boy, etc. SW has always been consistent in it's quality. 

So tell me, why all the hate?

*I've used tons of specialty brands for industrial crap (like for the tanks at Miller Brewing), so I'm not counting those types of products


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> Yeh, that sounds about right on all fronts. Guys I've talked to in local SW stores have all just been walking marketing material vomiting zombies.


 I was one once. That's what got me started on scotch. Believe me, in the mid nineties i was Mr. Sherman Williams hisself.


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## DrakeB

Anchors Aweigh Paint said:


> So tell me, why all the hate?


If you have a paint you like and a system that works for you, that's great. No one should tell you otherwise.

I have lots of problems with SW, from a business standpoint (that they're actively devaluing the paint industry and driving the push for less and less quality paint every year) to problems with their products (durability, hide, ingredients, health of the user) to problems with their marketing, to problems with the quality control of their staff. None of that should mean anything to you if you're happy with where you are, though.


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> If you have a paint you like and a system that works for you, that's great. No one should tell you otherwise.
> 
> I have lots of problems with SW, from a business standpoint (that they're actively devaluing the paint industry and driving the push for less and less quality paint every year) to problems with their products (durability, hide, ingredients, health of the user) to problems with their marketing, to problems with the quality control of their staff. None of that should mean anything to you if you're happy with where you are, though.


 Every one of their store managers is on a hidden time clock. If they don't become district managers before 5 years with the company they become expendable. Only increasing sales by a large percentage every year will keep them in the game. The first time their sales growth slips they have a huge amount of pressure put on them to either increase sales or get out. I have seen that company screw over more good employees than any one I have ever worked for, including me. i won't go into detail with my story, but suffice to say my attorney was sure I would have a successful nepotism case against them. Our store lost a million dollar customer one year to a company in Japan, yet we still had sales over our yearly sales goal. That wasn't good enough. We had 9 years of double digit sales increases and a 9% increase wasn't enough to keep them off my ass. I saw long term employees get fired because they were 1 or 2% down in sales to their goal, yet they were ahead of the previous year. Every store manager or reps employment with them is a ticking time bomb, they are just to ignorant to know it yet.


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## PACman

If you or any other painter were to do an unbiased, side by side test, you would understand why some of us how sell other premium paint lines get so frustrated. I had to do a match of an SW color for a painter once that we were trying to switch to PPG speedhide. I did the match to the SW color chip and it was a perfect match. The next day the guy calls up screaming because the match was way too light, so he put some 200 on a piece of drywall and brushed some speedhide right next to it and brought it in to show me. The two coats of 200 was still not covering the drywall color! One coat of Speedhide covered it and matched the color chip. I showed him how if he put three coats of the 200 on, it would actually match the SW color chip. What did he do? Told me i was crazy and went right back to SW. He painted a new apartment complex that way and guess what? When we went into the complex a while later, none of the PM200 they had bought to do touch ups or repaints matched what was on the walls. Why? Because he had only put the two coats on when he painted them when they were built. And now they were putting that third coat on making the walls actually match the chip. If this were an isolated incident I wouldn't think much of it, but I have seen it many, many times. Almost everytime i go into a fairly new apartment complex to try to sell them paint, it's the same story. The PM200 won't or didn't touch up or match on the first re-paint. Add to that many of the apartments in my area are paying as much as $36.00 for 200, and you may begin to see why I get so frustrated by them.


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## SemiproJohn

Proalliance coatings said:


> I find it is a pretty decent paint at it's price. SW will never tell their store employees what it is, that's a given. But doing side by side tests in my hillbilly paint lab, i can tell you that i believe it is superpaint. SW will never tell their employees because they don't want them to know exactly what kind of quality they are selling in their stores compared to their competition. They "sell" their store employees that their quality is second to none so the store employees can honestly feel that they are selling the best paint there is. They market their stuff to employees pretty aggressively. But when they move out into the real paint world, they find out the truth.


I wouldn't be surprised if Ovation actually was Superpaint. And I appreciate that you have actually done a side by side comparison. I have to operate by memory at this point. I do know that I can't, with my discount, get interior Superpaint at SW for as low a price that anyone (without a discount) can get Ovation from Lowe's. And I find that disturbing, to say the least.

Of course, I would have to use both products in various sheens, colors, and over various colors do get a real sense of their similarities. 

I apologize for my rather hasty and incomplete "comparison." After reading the thread by Jmays about the Bin Advanced vs. the traditional Bin, I realize that he hit a home run, while I didn't even make it to first base.


----------



## PACman

SemiproJohn said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Ovation actually was Superpaint. And I appreciate that you have actually done a side by side comparison. I have to operate by memory at this point. I do know that I can't, with my discount, get interior Superpaint at SW for as low a price that anyone (without a discount) can get Ovation from Lowe's. And I find that disturbing, to say the least.
> 
> Of course, I would have to use both products in various sheens, colors, and over various colors do get a real sense of their similarities.
> 
> I apologize for my rather hasty and incomplete "comparison." After reading the thread by Jmays about the Bin Advanced vs. the traditional Bin, I realize that he hit a home run, while I didn't even make it to first base.


 It's next to impossible for a painter to do a side by side comparison due to the fact that getting paid depends on a consistent finish. Doing it with primers isn't so tough. But what i dislike is when someone says, "your such and such paint sucks compared with the Promar 200 I used two weeks ago, it drags like crazy." when two weeks ago it was 70 degrees and 50% humidity and when they tried my paint it was 95% and 20% humidity. Trying a new paint and really getting an idea how it works requires that it be used a few times, as opposed to just painting a ceiling or a closet. What I do is lab testing which although done under controlled conditions,still has limitations as to how well it represents real world use. But you would be surprised how many real world tests are fudged because the painter just refuses to admit how poor the SW he has been using actually is. Lab testing allows me to know that when a painter tells me mine doesn't cover or whatever as well as 200 I know he is full of it, and he just doesn't want to give up his SW nipple.


----------



## Anchors Aweigh Paint

Proalliance coatings said:


> "your such and such paint sucks compared with the Promar 200 I used two weeks ago, it drags like crazy." when two weeks ago it was 70 degrees and 50% humidity and when they tried my paint it was 95% and 20% humidity. Trying a new paint and really getting an idea how it works requires th


Thats what I did with Aura. 3rd time using it now (all times in ideal conditions) and still NOT a fan. For the record, I didn't buy it. A guy I work with when I'm slow buys it.


----------



## PACman

Anchors Aweigh Paint said:


> Thats what I did with Aura. 3rd time using it now (all times in ideal conditions) and still NOT a fan. For the record, I didn't buy it. A guy I work with when I'm slow buys it.


 I have a hell of a time brushing Aura. It drags pretty bad and it lifts itself. That's why they sell an extender for it. Seems to me they need to just make it with the extender in it already. My BM rep (I don't carry BM but he still calls on me once a month. Nice guy. I wish I had the money to bring in BM.) is telling me that there were a series of engineering trade offs when they first developed it. They wanted to make sure that it lived up to the durability and hide that the price demanded, so they had to make sure that the typical DIY'er was putting it on thick enough. Leaves much to be desired to the typical painter though. But, if I were to carry BM, I would probably not stock Aura.


----------



## DrakeB

People do get used to the Aura. I've heard this complaint before plenty of times, but after a few times most people get used to it. I still prefer the Regal Select myself, but there's a lotta guys who swear by it. As I've said for a long time, personal preference means a lot.


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## Jmayspaint

I had more of a problem figuring out rolling Aura than brushing it. It does tend to go on thick, I think that's part of the point of Aura is to produce a thicker, tougher film than other paints. It's specced to go on at 4.3 compared to most BM paints at 3.8. I had some problems with runs in brush work at first, but after getting used to it I like how it brushes a lot. Flows out great if you don't play with it too much. 

Rolling is another story. The quick dry time limits how much it can actually flow out. You have to start with a pretty tight stipple for it to flow out smooth and you can't roll over it more than two or three times.


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## DrakeB

Yah, rolling the Aura is tricky and you have to be fast. If I know someone's rolling, I don't sell them Aura unless they're a pro. Have to be fast with Aura all around, though.


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## PACman

I just completed my first round of testing on the Ovation/Superpaint/Promar200. Some interesing observations. But since I can't double space, I can't post my results in a logical fashion. Suffice to say that the wet paint samples show that the Pm200 is considerably grayer than either the s/p or the ovation, using the dribble in the can method or a side by side drawdown. Also, p/m 200 has visibly less wet hide than 200. I haven't done any viscosity testing (lost my Zahn cup), but the drawdown shows a considerable difference in flow and leveling between Ovation and 200. The in the can odor (which of course is subjective) is slightly different. Now the Ovation vs Superpaint. Using the wet dribble method (dribbling one into the other) shows NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE between the whiteness of Ovation and Superpaint. A side by side 6mil wet drawdown again shows NO DISCERNIBLE difference between the whiteness of Ovation and Superpaint Smell is virtually identical (subjective!) Again, no visible color or whiteness change occurs when drawn down side by side and even blending into one another along the edge. Flow and leveling are visually equal between Ovation and Superpaint. I am waiting for the samples to air dry to check dry hide and whiteness dry. Of course this is not a complete lab or field test, but it is my opinion that Ovation is identical in wet performance to Superpaint in every way. Now, can I have my double space privileges back? I promise to be good.


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## Wildbill7145

Woodford said:


> Yah, rolling the Aura is tricky and you have to be fast. If I know someone's rolling, I don't sell them Aura unless they're a pro. Have to be fast with Aura all around, though.


I personally cringe whenever I'm at the paint shop and they're selling a DIYer Aura. Especially when you see them buying their first paint tray and roller cage with it.

I've found that you have to use a pretty firm bristle brush when cutting in. If you use a soft bristle brush it's painful to get it to go where you want it to.

I've used lots of it in the past, but pretty much stick to Regal Select now for the most part, unless I'm doing a really deep colour.


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## Gymschu

Not to cut into the Aura discussion, but, I tried the Lowe's version of Ovation Exterior.......painting white over white on aluminum. I give it a "D."


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## DrakeB

Gymschu said:


> Not to cut into the Aura discussion, but, I tried the Lowe's version of Ovation Exterior.......painting white over white on aluminum. I give it a "D."


It was that bad white over white?


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## Gymschu

Woodford said:


> It was that bad white over white?



That bad. Maybe it was the aluminum, but coverage was poor. Applied 3 coats to get decent coverage.


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## chrisn

Gymschu said:


> That bad. Maybe it was the aluminum, but coverage was poor. Applied 3 coats to get decent coverage.


just like their famed "eminence"


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## Painter4Life

I'll have to go to Lowes and check it out. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## PACman

Gymschu said:


> That bad. Maybe it was the aluminum, but coverage was poor. Applied 3 coats to get decent coverage.


 That is some seriously bad crap if it doesn't cover that in two coats. Was it a factory white or an un-tinted base? Even an un-tinted pastel base should cover that in two coats max.


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## hammerhead

tried the Ovation or the first time today. Eggshell on interior walls went on very smooth and covered well. Was real impressed with semi on the trim and doors. Sprayed on very nice and had a great finish. Tomorrow will give it the finger nail test. Definitely not pm 200


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

hammerhead said:


> tried the Ovation or the first time today. Eggshell on interior walls went on very smooth and covered well. Was real impressed with semi on the trim and doors. Sprayed on very nice and had a great finish. Tomorrow will give it the finger nail test. Definitely not pm 200


Might wanna wait til it has cured before you perform the fingernail test, to be fair. If I used the same methods for testing Advance by taking my fingernail to it the next day, I never would've used it again, and it would have been my loss.


----------



## PPM

According to the MSDS sheets on Interior Ovation Flat, and Interior SuperPaint flat, their chemical composition (that we are able to see anyway), are identical. 

It's as if SW only changed the product names on the MSDS sheets.


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## PACman

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Might wanna wait til it has cured before you perform the fingernail test, to be fair. If I used the same methods for testing Advance by taking my fingernail to it the next day, I never would've used it again, and it would have been my loss.


 Remember any acrylic paint doesn't reach maximum hardness for 3 to 4 weeks.


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## PACman

PPM said:


> According to the MSDS sheets on Interior Ovation Flat, and Interior SuperPaint flat, their chemical composition (that we are able to see anyway), are identical.
> 
> It's as if SW only changed the product names on the MSDS sheets.


 I bet if I printed out the Ovation Int. flat MSDS on clear film they used to use on overhead projectors (anyone remember those? They'll be worth a fortune someday!), I could put it over the Superpaint MSDS and it would match perfectly.


----------



## PACman

After looking at the side by side drawdown I did last week there is absolutely no visible demarcation line between the Superpaint and the Ovation. Even using 10x magnification, there is no line, no color difference, no brightness difference, and no textural difference whatsoever. These two paints are cosmetically identical at 10x magnification. The odds of this happening between two paints of different composition are virtually 0. I believe my hillbilly test lab has determined them to be the same paint.


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## mudbone

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Might wanna wait til it has cured before you perform the fingernail test, to be fair. If I used the same methods for testing Advance by taking my fingernail to it the next day, I never would've used it again, and it would have been my loss.


Agree he might just want to give it the finger instead!


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## hammerhead

mudbone said:


> Agree he might just want to give it the finger instead!


1 or 2? :thumbup:


----------



## ShermanMoore

Gymschu said:


> That bad. Maybe it was the aluminum, but coverage was poor. Applied 3 coats to get decent coverage.


Well Super Paint Ext. comes in a ready-mix Super White, which has significantly better hide than the Extra White tint base. Ovation does not have the Super White, just the Extra White, so white Ovation will not cover as well as white Super.


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## Gymschu

ShermanMoore said:


> Well Super Paint Ext. comes in a ready-mix Super White, which has significantly better hide than the Extra White tint base. Ovation does not have the Super White, just the Extra White, so white Ovation will not cover as well as white Super.


Thanks for the info, Sherman. I just now realized as I looked at the can that the Ovation was "Extra White". It doesn't look horrible, but, I'm still not satisfied. Luckily the aluminum is high enough off the ground that the lack of coverage won't show. It is a nice bright white, so, for now, I can live with a job that's not quite "up to snuff."


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## paintpimp

Just a few drops of colorant would have made huge improvement in coverage


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## DrakeB

Tint bases should never be left without any tint in them imo, even the white bases. All of the TDS and performance claims are reliant on there being tint in the can.


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## Tundra02

Used flat exterior Ovation yesterday on Cedar shakes and 6 month weathered PT . Used SW grizzle gray color . The product covered , leveled out nice . To me the price I paid and performance was 7 on a 1 to 10 scale . I have another ext job comming up in a few weeks and a interior one next week I plan on using there .


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## Gymschu

paintpimp said:


> Just a few drops of colorant would have made huge improvement in coverage


There has been debate on here and other message boards that that is not necessarily the case. Also, debate has centered on whether to add black or white colorant to the extra white base to get better coverage.


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## DrakeB

Gymschu said:


> There has been debate on here and other message boards that that is not necessarily the case. Also, debate has centered on whether to add black or white colorant to the extra white base to get better coverage.


Can't speak for SW products directly, but I can say that for BM without a doubt you should *never *paint with untinted base and it absolutely does cover better with tint. For Gennex colorants, darker colors will cover better. For most other colorant systems, lighter colorants will cover better.


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## PACman

Gymschu said:


> There has been debate on here and other message boards that that is not necessarily the case. Also, debate has centered on whether to add black or white colorant to the extra white base to get better coverage.


 It's science and math, so most people don't understand. But if something is 99% white already, putting another.0000001% more white in it doesn't do much. The PPG chemists actually did drawdowns of straight white, white with 4oz titanium white pigment per gallon, and white with 1/48 of black per gallon, and sent one to each store with a letter that from then on, if a painter asked for extra TiO2 in a gallon, we were to show them the drawdown and tell them if they still wanted TiO2 added it would be an additional charge of $2.00 per ounce per can to tint it. It is a terrible waste of resources for a store to do this. If anyone wants to see it for themselves, come by my store and we will experiment on this. If the one with the black doesn't have significantly more hide, lunch is on me. If it does have more hide, lunch is on you. If there are any takers, PM me.


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## DrakeB

Proalliance coatings said:


> It's science and math, so most people don't understand. But if something is 99% white already, putting another.0000001% more white in it doesn't do much. The PPG chemists actually did drawdowns of straight white, white with 4oz titanium white pigment per gallon, and white with 1/48 of black per gallon, and sent one to each store with a letter that from then on, if a painter asked for extra TiO2 in a gallon, we were to show them the drawdown and tell them if they still wanted TiO2 added it would be an additional charge of $2.00 per ounce per can to tint it. It is a terrible waste of resources for a store to do this. If anyone wants to see it for themselves, come by my store and we will experiment on this. If the one with the black doesn't have significantly more hide, lunch is on me. If it does have more hide, lunch is on you. If there are any takers, PM me.


The only problem I have with this idea is that (some brands, at least) are not 99% white already. If you let a can separate (some brands, I can't speak for all) you're going to find that as much as 30% of the can is clear. I don't doubt that you're right about the brands you've used- you certainly have more experience than I. But I can say that from the BM perspective you definitely want to fill the can- always.


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## paintpimp

When I used to work around Columbia paints. If they added a a couple drops of umber into their white base, the product covered way better.


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## PRC

Woodford said:


> The only problem I have with this idea is that (some brands, at least) are not 99% white already. If you let a can separate (some brands, I can't speak for all) you're going to find that as much as 30% of the can is clear. I don't doubt that you're right about the brands you've used- you certainly have more experience than I. But I can say that from the BM perspective you definitely want to fill the can- always.


Do you know how much more Titanium the 046 has over 023?Was told it is a good bit. Covers much better.


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## Damon T

paintpimp said:


> When I used to work around Columbia paints. If they added a a couple drops of umber into their white base, the product covered way better.



My Ppg store called this L4. 4 drops of umber. Helped breakthrough white cover much better. Btw the white and pastel base is meant to be used as white right out of the can, or can be tinted. Added the umber made it just a bit warmer but still looked white. And definitely covered better. This was on a big trim job we had to do by hand as it was three floors of hallways and stairways in a old Hoa style building. Made it two coats instead of three.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc.

Proalliance coatings said:


> It's science and math, so most people don't understand. But if something is 99% white already, putting another.0000001% more white in it doesn't do much. The PPG chemists actually did drawdowns of straight white, white with 4oz titanium white pigment per gallon, and white with 1/48 of black per gallon, and sent one to each store with a letter that from then on, if a painter asked for extra TiO2 in a gallon, we were to show them the drawdown and tell them if they still wanted TiO2 added it would be an additional charge of $2.00 per ounce per can to tint it. It is a terrible waste of resources for a store to do this. If anyone wants to see it for themselves, come by my store and we will experiment on this. If the one with the black doesn't have significantly more hide, lunch is on me. If it does have more hide, lunch is on you. If there are any takers, PM me.



I agree, but have you ever compared adding umber vs. black? I'd love to see someone show that black covers better, but from my experience, umber trumps all. Can be a game changer between 1 coat vs 2, or 2 coats vs 3.


----------



## Gough

paintpimp said:


> When I used to work around Columbia paints. If they added a a couple drops of umber into their white base, the product covered way better.


For years, the fallback color from Columbia was L-6.

BTW, it was a sad day when they were gobbled up by *S*atan's *W*orkshop.


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## PACman

Woodford said:


> The only problem I have with this idea is that (some brands, at least) are not 99% white already. If you let a can separate (some brands, I can't speak for all) you're going to find that as much as 30% of the can is clear. I don't doubt that you're right about the brands you've used- you certainly have more experience than I. But I can say that from the BM perspective you definitely want to fill the can- always.


 I'm talking about hide, not filling the can. Ask your BM rep or call tech and see what they say. I bet they agree that a little black or umber gives a better hide than a bunch of white. Although, the Gennex white is a completely different thing than what most paint stores use. It is a waste of money though.


----------



## PACman

PRC said:


> Do you know how much more Titanium the 046 has over 023?Was told it is a good bit. Covers much better.


 I was told that the 046 used the factory gennex pigment when they updated it, which gives it a better hide. There is definitely more in it though.


----------



## PACman

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I agree, but have you ever compared adding umber vs. black? I'd love to see someone show that black covers better, but from my experience, umber trumps all. Can be a game changer between 1 coat vs 2, or 2 coats vs 3.


 you are correct, umber will hide a little better than black. But adding a small amount of black will keep the white a little brighter than umber. The old Porter formula for "High Hide" white in a pastel base was called the JET formula, being; J-yellow oxide 1/48 E-black 1/48 T-raw umber 1/48 Hid like cray cray!


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## DrakeB

PRC said:


> Do you know how much more Titanium the 046 has over 023?Was told it is a good bit. Covers much better.


I don't, exactly. I remember from checking the TDS that volume solids was about a 6% difference between the two, but I've actually never bothered stocking the 023 so hadn't looked into it too much.


----------



## DrakeB

Proalliance coatings said:


> I'm talking about hide, not filling the can. Ask your BM rep or call tech and see what they say. I bet they agree that a little black or umber gives a better hide than a bunch of white. Although, the Gennex white is a completely different thing than what most paint stores use. It is a waste of money though.


I'm talking about hide as well. You get better hide with the BM when you fill the can (or add any amount of tint) is what I'm getting at. And yah, they'd definitely say that a little color will do even better than white.

My point being, adding _*any*_ amount of any tint is going to give better hide (in BM, at the very least). I've talked to them about it, they don't ever want you using untinted base. It won't perform correctly because the paint is formulated to have specific amounts of tint in it- directly from their eggheads.


----------



## PACman

Woodford said:


> I'm talking about hide as well. You get better hide with the BM when you fill the can (or add any amount of tint) is what I'm getting at. And yah, they'd definitely say that a little color will do even better than white.
> 
> My point being, adding _*any*_ amount of any tint is going to give better hide (in BM, at the very least). I've talked to them about it, they don't ever want you using untinted base. It won't perform correctly because the paint is formulated to have specific amounts of tint in it- directly from their eggheads.


 That's true that they say that. But it saves you a bunch of money to put something other than a bunch of white in it. But, many paint companies do not even make a package white anymore, the pastel base supposedly being ok for a straight white. I don't agree with it though, and I always shade my base for a straight white use.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Since we have a few paint store dudes who tint paint every day, it would be great if one of you could suggest the definitive recipe for the highest hiding white. I know it could vary between paint stores, Gennnex vs Universal tints, etc., but based on your expert opinion and experience, I'd really like to know. 

For the sake of clarity, exactly how much colorant would you add to 1 gal of white for the best covering white? I know umber will change the color slightly, but how much could you safely add to a 1 gal to increase hide before it's noticeable that it's no longer white-white?


----------



## DrakeB

Proalliance coatings said:


> That's true that they say that. But it saves you a bunch of money to put something other than a bunch of white in it. But, many paint companies do not even make a package white anymore, the pastel base supposedly being ok for a straight white. I don't agree with it though, and I always shade my base for a straight white use.


All of my tints cost the same amount per quart  "Perk" of being a Ben Moore dealer.


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## Wildbill7145

Woodford said:


> All of my tints cost the same amount per quart  "Perk" of being a Ben Moore dealer.


Just roughly, very ballpark figure's fine, if you're allowed to say; what's a quart of that stuff worth anyways? Just out of curiousity sake. I've seen the stuff for 12 years and have no idea whatsoever.

As in, I don't know if it's worth $10/q or $150.


----------



## DrakeB

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Since we have a few paint store dudes who tint paint every day, it would be great if one of you could suggest the definitive recipe for the highest hiding white. I know it could vary between paint stores, Gennnex vs Universal tints, etc., but based on your expert opinion and experience, I'd really like to know.
> 
> For the sake of clarity, exactly how much colorant would you add to 1 gal of white for the best covering white? I know umber will change the color slightly, but how much could you safely add to a 1 gal to increase hide before it's noticeable that it's no longer white-white?


It's... a really hard thing to say, for me. How white-white do you want your white? Depends a lot on your eye for color (or your customer's). Decorators White from BM (PM-3) looks dirty to me, but it's an ever popular white and has close to an ounce of colorant in it. It's probably the best compromise between hide and whiteness I can think of right off the top of my head- it's got a good amount of S1 (black) as well as a little of the R3 and Y3 (oxide red/yellow). It's all about where you draw the line between white and off white.

Personally speaking, as a white-white OC-117 does a pretty good job for me. It's just got about 4 shots of gray and 1.5 of Y3 as I recall. So much is subjective, though.


----------



## Damon T

OC-117 simply white is our go to white for ceilings and trim. It used to be white dove but we are pushing this one now. It's also nice to have one main white so that if there's q bunch leftover we bring it back to the shop knowing we will use it again. We try not to bring any other paints back to the shop. Although ready mix black from breakthrough or others is also one we bring back.


----------



## DrakeB

I see a lot of White Dove locally, and it's generally my first suggestion for trim. I think as a painter finding a set color for ceilings and trim to be your standard is a great way of saving money and time. White Dove is very noticeably darker than Simply White, but it seems a lot of people don't mind it. I rarely have any issues with hide in Regal or Aura, but I might do a bit of testing to see if I can tell the difference between the hide of the two just for my own curiosity.


----------



## Damon T

I did one test on a ceiling and the simple white covered better than the white dove. My own house has white dove trim leftover from a while ago, and we just did the ceiling over again in the remodel, using simply white. They both look white if y don't have a bright white card stock next to it.


----------



## jeffnc

PACman said:


> In the meantime, I have done my hillbilly lab testing on the Ovation, Promar 200, and Superpaint, and there is no way in hell that Ovation is anything less a product than Superpaint. It may be something different, maybe a new formulation, but the performance is far above Promar 200 in my lab shack. For one thing it is about 5 time whiter then 200, and it lays out and hides much better.


I've used Ovation very little, and Showcase none, so this is not my personal experience talking, but since these are fairly new products, it's conceivable that they are actually different paints, but formulated to have the same "early" attributes as SuperPaint and Duration (i.e. thickness, lay out, hide, but not necessarily durability). Long term attributes like scrubbability, UV resistance, etc are obviously harder to test for new products.

I have no idea who this person is, but he claims this:
http://www.greenwoodindianapolispai...howcase-lowes-same-paint-duration-superpaint/


----------



## Wolfgang

jeffnc said:


> I've used Ovation very little, and Showcase none, so this is not my personal experience talking, but since these are fairly new products, it's conceivable that they are actually different paints, but formulated to have the same "early" attributes as SuperPaint and Duration (i.e. thickness, lay out, hide, but not necessarily durability). Long term attributes like scrubbability, UV resistance, etc are obviously harder to test for new products.
> 
> I have no idea who this person is, but he claims this:
> http://www.greenwoodindianapolispai...howcase-lowes-same-paint-duration-superpaint/


Good read.


----------



## hammerhead

i use showcase in my rental properties. I like it alot, covers well.


----------



## queefer

I recently did a big job and used both Showcase and Ovation. I preferred the Ovation as far as coverage, but the Showcase certainly laid prettier.


----------



## PACman

jeffnc said:


> I've used Ovation very little, and Showcase none, so this is not my personal experience talking, but since these are fairly new products, it's conceivable that they are actually different paints, but formulated to have the same "early" attributes as SuperPaint and Duration (i.e. thickness, lay out, hide, but not necessarily durability). Long term attributes like scrubbability, UV resistance, etc are obviously harder to test for new products.
> 
> I have no idea who this person is, but he claims this:
> http://www.greenwoodindianapolispai...howcase-lowes-same-paint-duration-superpaint/


Unfortunately I can't do detailed chemical analysis in my hillbilly lab (yet!), but this certainly make sense to me. There would definitely be an attempt to cheapen the product and maximize profit, so this would be no real surprise. It definitely means that those product lines are not a very good value to the end consumer, as there is a lot of money to be handed out for the prices it is sold at. It may work quite well on initial application, but almost certainly there has to be some compromise on quality and the easiest thing to do is lower the durability of the product, something most consumers would never be aware of.

Rental properties would be a great use for these products, as long term durability is not as critical as the application properties.


----------



## DrakeB

Damon T said:


> OC-117 simply white is our go to white for ceilings and trim.


And now it's Ben Moore's color of the year. Nice pick


----------



## Wildbill7145

DrakeB said:


> And now it's Ben Moore's color of the year. Nice pick


I heard about that a while ago. My first reaction was shock. Seriously? They picked a white for colour of the year?

I think over the last few years, I've painted more greys than in the ten years previous to that. Silver Fox being the most popular.


----------



## DrakeB

Wildbill7145 said:


> I heard about that a while ago. My first reaction was shock. Seriously? They picked a white for colour of the year?
> 
> I think over the last few years, I've painted more greys than in the ten years previous to that. Silver Fox being the most popular.


I wasn't particularly happy about it myself to be honest. Their justification for it is "well 'x' % of all BM paint sales are white colors!" To which my response was "of course you ninnies, almost all trim and ceilings are painted white." Theoretically it does represent sales well, but realistically it has very little to do with trends or yearly changes. I don't buy that white's coming back for walls as a trend. It still happens sometimes, but it's extremely unpopular in my region and in most regions that I've talked to people in (for residences, that is). Over all very disappointed in their entire pallet compared to previous years. Lots of the other colors were either boring or gaudy. Only about 3 that I actually like.


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