# What is better?



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I was checking out Jack Pauhl/Maximum Painting website, kicks ass by the way, and noticed in a lot of the videos they roll first then cut in after dry. Is this pretty common or something new to the paint industry? I know with the lower voc's it is hard to keep a wet edge without adding a bunch of extender. I like the idea as you know how much to cut in after the fact. Thoughts or ways you do it?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)




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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I roll first then cut on the first coat.


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## johnny949 (Apr 13, 2012)

I wouldn't roll first than cut with anything but flat paint.


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## MASTer Painter (Feb 19, 2012)

I dont know much about smooth walls, But down here in the south on orange peel and knockdwn..it dont friggin matter. Just put it on


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I'll do that on occasion with the FIRST coat. Maybe that's what was happening on the video you watched.


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## HJ61 (Nov 14, 2011)

Yep. Roll, cut 1, cut 2, roll2. Saves time and tiny amount of paint.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm pretty sure roll first/cut after (take no prisoners) works ok. 

I opt out simply because I like to get the hard part done first. Once that's done, it's all downhill. 

Another reason is because I generally get more material on the wall with rolling, there is more wait time for it to dry. Versus after cutting in, I'm ready to rock. If I roll first, I find I need to stand there and let some stuff dry before starting to cut in.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

We cut and roll, cut and roll. I thought amateurs roll first.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm pretty sure roll first/cut after (take no prisoners) works ok.
> 
> I opt out simply because I like to get the hard part done first. Once that's done, it's all downhill.
> 
> ...


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

I cut roll, cut roll...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Traditionally, I always cut and roll. I've even squared up an area with a cut and roll before moving on if I felt it would give a better finish.

However, there have been many occasions where I've opted for rolling large areas prior to cutting in because of a weather threat, or some sort of time constraint. Cutting in first feels more proper.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm with TJ, but when priming, I will roll first. Order doesn't matter much except on the final coat. Main point is to have a small cut and a tight roll. I use a johnny sometimes.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Brian C said:


> I thought amateurs roll first.


 Amateurs tape first.

Other than that..I choose to remain silent on this issue this time around.


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## HJ61 (Nov 14, 2011)

It's a funny thing with painting, everybody has a little bit different way of doing things. And I'm not sure where the 'rules' that can't be broken come from. I'm willing to try things once and if it saves time/money without compromising quality then I'll change. You gotta do what works for your paradigm.

Btw, do you roll left to right? Or right to left?


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

To Cut or roll... roll or cut...

It all depends on first, are you on a smooth wall or textured wall?

If on smooth walls & you roll first then your brush marks can show up easy, plus the product can be drying on you which can cause problems in warm environments on smooth walls.

Furthermore, on smooth walls I say cut & mini-rol with tight nap leaving a small, tight stippled edge. this way there are no brush lines in the work (ROOKIE WORK!).

When on textured walls, the heavier textured the less likely for brush marks & the less it maters how & what order you brush & roll.

If your like me & realize painting habits stop brain use where people paint going through the motions without any presence to what they are actually doing. Therefore, I always cut first a wall & part of the next (the corner), then roll the section out immediately, keeping a wet cut in line. This way, when I've painted the room once, the first section of walls are dry and ready for a 2nd coat. On small rooms, textured, I cut in entire room, pending brush marks blend in fine, then roll it.

Form Follows Function...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

HJ61 said:


> It's a funny thing with painting, everybody has a little bit different way of doing things. And I'm not sure where the 'rules' that can't be broken come from. I'm willing to try things once and if it saves time/money without compromising quality then I'll change. You gotta do what works for your paradigm.
> 
> Btw, do you roll left to right? Or right to left?



Right to left, same direction that I work when I cut in. "Open" end of the roller facing right, finish on the down stroke.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I was checking out Jack Pauhl/Maximum Painting website, kicks ass by the way, and noticed in a lot of the videos they roll first then cut in after dry. Is this pretty common or something new to the paint industry? I know with the lower voc's it is hard to keep a wet edge without adding a bunch of extender. I like the idea as you know how much to cut in after the fact. Thoughts or ways you do it?


You watched the JP video and still you're questioning what is the _right way_? Man, that borders on blasphemy! If I were you I'd be cautious of lightening bolts coming out of the sky today regardless of the weather. 

Seriously, I cut-roll-cut-roll probably 99% of the time. We have very little smooth texture out this way (it's mainly older properties that do) so whatever technique you prefer is just fine. I've leaned from experience that whatever looks best to me is the right way.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Right to left, same direction that I work when I cut in. "Open" end of the roller facing right, finish on the down stroke.


Same here - except on Tuesdays and Thursdays when I reverse it.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Rolling left - right no matter...I roll a room out with the intention of ending up at the door I'm gonna walk outta..


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

When I first started, I remember a guy telling me that the 'correct' way to apply anything with a sheen was to square up each wall before moving to the next. This method for the second coat only. I don't think I ever asked why. I just did it. I probably didn't care at the time.

I don't know that flashing is as much of an issue these days. I understand paints have come a long way from the early acrylics. 

Bottom line is, however you do it..as long as the finish product is pristine, it's the right way.


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

Delta Painting said:


> Rolling left - right no matter...I roll a room out with the intention of ending up at the door I'm gonna walk outta..


Exactly! 

I follow this rule of thumb... Paint from Top to Bottom, Side to Side & Inside to Out (hardest to easiest). Always start at the top, inside & work from one side to the next (either way, left or right, that goes inside to out.)


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> Exactly!
> 
> I follow this rule of thumb... Paint from Top to Bottom, Side to Side & Inside to Out (hardest to easiest). Always start at the top, inside & work from one side to the next (either way, left or right, that goes inside to out.)


Right. Top to bottom. what a concept! Why so many painters work like bricklayers(bottom-up) I will never understand.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Had a guy swear that painting lap siding from the bottom up was better... He smoked a lot. 

I never did the roll first then cut until I read a thread with some debate about it. I tried it for the first time a month ago and prefer it now to be honest. First coat only.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Delta Painting said:


> Rolling left - right no matter...I roll a room out with the intention of ending up at the door I'm gonna walk outta..


There are times that I'd give my left arm to be ambidextrous. 

I do start on the corner closest to the door, unless there's some compelling reason not to.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

If it isn't sealed like a builders flat then I always roll, cut, cut roll. Its a good bit faster, and easier on the wrist because half the cut line isn't dragging.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> If it isn't sealed like a builders flat then I always roll, cut, cut roll. Its a good bit faster, and easier on the wrist because half the cut line isn't dragging.


That does go faster when it's like that.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I was checking out Jack Pauhl/Maximum Painting website, kicks ass by the way, and noticed in a lot of the videos they roll first then cut in after dry. Is this pretty common or something new to the paint industry? I know with the lower voc's it is hard to keep a wet edge without adding a bunch of extender. I like the idea as you know how much to cut in after the fact. Thoughts or ways you do it?


Rolling first, cutting last over new drywall is by design. Strictly an efficiency scheme to achieve 22 feet per minute cutting in ceiling lines over pure mud. 2nd coat is cut first, let dry, then roll last and tight.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Needs no explanation.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Cut-roll-sand-cut-roll-sand-cut-roll for new construction 99 % of the time for 30 years .

I can't tell how many feet I do in a minute...we use the metric system here !!! :whistling2:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

The point with rolling first is to have dry paint as close as possible to the ceiling line which is pure mud. I try to keep the roller stop point no more than 2" from the ceiling. The smaller that strip of pure mud is, the faster the cut will be. No need to be a super painter to be efficient... it will happen by a sequence of events and the more you eliminate, the more efficient you'll become without working harder or faster.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> The point with rolling first is to have dry paint as close as possible to the ceiling line which is pure mud. I try to keep the roller stop point no more than 2" from the ceiling. The smaller that strip of pure mud is, the faster the cut will be. No need to be a super painter to be efficient... it will happen by a sequence of events and the more you eliminate, the more efficient you'll become without working harder or faster.


This didn't make sense to me but then I remembered that you don't prime. I disagree with your decision not to prime, but again..if your results are satisfactory for your customers..then that is all that matters.

I feel comfortable knowing that we are not competing for work in the same market, and that the family that I have in Ohio will contact me for advice before hiring any local paint contractor.


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

Csheils said:


> This didn't make sense to me but then I remembered that you don't prime. I disagree with your decision not to prime


Interesting, I caught the same wave length... Doesn't make sense to not prime drywall! Unless of course you're using self priming paint. Or hot mud which seems crazy to use to texture an entire home (still I'd even prime hot mud for good safety on large areas). 

So if you are using regular paint over unprimed drywall then I must say I am perplexed. What happens when you stick tape on the wall & pull off paint. Get the chatter cause of no adheasion.

Please explain your logic... Or is it just another case of "new construction" where half-assed painting is done 90% or more of the time?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> Interesting, I caught the same wave length... Doesn't make sense to not prime drywall! Unless of course you're using self priming paint. Or hot mud which seems crazy to use to texture an entire home (still I'd even prime hot mud for good safety on large areas).
> 
> So if you are using regular paint over unprimed drywall then I must say I am perplexed. What happens when you stick tape on the wall & pull off paint. Get the chatter cause of no adheasion.
> 
> Please explain your logic... Or is it just another case of "new construction" where half-assed painting is done 90% or more of the time?


Jack swears by the Beahr.


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## 1963 Sovereign (Dec 14, 2011)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> Interesting, I caught the same wave length... Doesn't make sense to not prime drywall! Unless of course you're using self priming paint. Or hot mud which seems crazy to use to texture an entire home (still I'd even prime hot mud for good safety on large areas).
> 
> So if you are using regular paint over unprimed drywall then I must say I am perplexed. What happens when you stick tape on the wall & pull off paint. Get the chatter cause of no adheasion.
> 
> Please explain your logic... Or is it just another case of "new construction" where half-assed painting is done 90% or more of the time?


I find it amazing people come to this forum to learn new things and ways of doing things,and bash a person for doing things a different way.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

1963 Sovereign said:


> I find it amazing people come to this forum to learn new things and ways of doing things,and bash a person for doing things a different way.


What I've observed over the years, and thanks to this forum, is that there appears to be no mandatory guidelines that painters are required to adhere to. 

In residential painting for example, self proclaimed job site painting inspectors like decorators, job site foremen, homeowners, and painting or general contractors, make the determination of what qualifies as an adequately completed and proper painting product. 

Hardly, if ever, is there a third party certified painting inspector with the knowledge and objectivity to make an accurate determination of what qualifies as a good paint job . Ultimately, this allows more subjectivity and interpretation then two people debating the meaning of life.

My conclusion is that the painting trade is greatly dependent on the ability to provide the best illusion with the least amount of time. And despite what is traditionally "considered" proper application, what ever gets you paid is apparently good enough.


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, the Bear paint... I would also use in new construction since it works. Otherwise you can have the smell of it (way to much ammonia).

It's about getting paint to stick & making money. Since every paint job/industry is a little to a lot different the basics of painting I use are.

-JOB SETUP (Understand SCOPE/BUDGET)
-CLEAN 
-SCRAPE
-SAND
-PATCH
-PRIME
-CAULK
-PAINT 
-CLEAN UP

With each step you may need to drop & mask. Prepare products. 

Follow theses basics & you don't run into the many basic problems of rookie painters or DIY'S.


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

1963 Sovereign said:


> I find it amazing people come to this forum to learn new things and ways of doing things,and bash a person for doing things a different way.


Not bashing, but intensely questioning with previous bad tasting experiences fixing so called "painters" work using PVA to prime drywall before paint (lol, peels away, meant for under the texture). Plus those that forgot to prime...


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## 1963 Sovereign (Dec 14, 2011)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> Not bashing, but intensely questioning with previous bad tasting experiences fixing so called "painters" work using PVA to prime drywall before paint (lol, peels away, meant for under the texture). Plus those that forgot to prime...


 Now I am not saying Jack is the Mr.wizard of the paint world,but he does do a bit of testing and follow through before he posts,have you ever checked out his website ? Hardly is this a man who FORGOT to prime.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I would agree, Jack tests a lot of techniques. I have not had the experience of painting room after room of new drywall in a while, but I believe that there are paints capable of going over it without primer. Whatever works. 
BTW PVA sucks, most people know this, Jack included.
Different techniques work well, for example, I've been using Gardz (new drywall, hot patches, wood priming) for a lot of things, some painters look at me like I'm crazy.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

normally on repaints you have quite a bit of drywall repairs and the sooner you cover the mud with paint,the sooner it will seal it from flashing. If you start off rolling the entire house (the first coat) you can come back the next day and cut it in and skip the step of spot priming.

the added benefit is you can give the walls a quick pole sand (180 grit) between coats if you wait 24 hrs.

so with a 2 coat job it is roll,cut,cut, roll.

sometimes you need to spot prime the mud AFTER the room is rolled/cut because you can't wait 24 hours to start the second coat You are then assured of the mud not flashing.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

On bear drywall for sure , cutting in first then rolling the first coat is just a inferior way versus rolling then cutting. A lot of experience doing both tells me that. it's not even a close call. Anybody that is not doing it ought to give it a serious trial period. Or don't.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

What is this Behr paint which can be applied to bare drywall without first priming? I will go buy a quart and test it myself. There is really no other way to be able to judge rightfully one way or another.


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## 1963 Sovereign (Dec 14, 2011)

Sir,Your attitude is most refreshing! no bashing and an open mind,Gotta love that .


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Its not just Behr (or BM) paint that you can roll onto un-primed drywall. Aura works, but probably others do too, Regal Select, I think, says it on the can. If I can 2 coat(with paint) and have the adhesion and uniform sheen, I would love to not prime and topcoat twice.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

kdpaint said:


> Its not just Behr (or BM) paint that you can roll onto un-primed drywall. Aura works, but probably others do too, Regal Select, I think, says it on the can. If I can 2 coat(with paint) and have the adhesion and uniform sheen, I would love to not prime and topcoat twice.


Eggshell, low lustre, flat-we always prime with the finish. Nobody could tell the difference between a wall that has 2 coats of promar200 eggshell and a wall that has a coat of primer and 2 coats of promar 200 eggshell. Even if it were my own house I'd put 2 or 3 coats of finish on bare drywall.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Twenty years or so ago the big fad around here was just to put two coats of CIL 9490 Eggshell latex on most new home walls and 2 coats of flat ceiling White on ceilings and no primer at all . You would save about 120 bucks on paint and about 120 on labor back then on a 1100 sq ft home bungalow style ...just an estimate as that was a long time ago . We have moved away from that and we always use Primer now . 

Some ask about 2 coats only...and I usually tell them that it is their home and it can only be painted once the first time...so why skimp on a few bucks ?
Paint it right the first time and it only gets easier doing it the next time !!! That is my take on things...but if something else works for you and the customers are happy in the short and long term...that is good !


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So being that joint cement has a high PH, doesn't anyone consider that the PVA [Poly Vinyl Acetate] sealer may have been designed to neutralize the substrate for a better bond. Huh, huh ...what?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> So being that joint cement has a high PH, doesn't anyone consider that the PVA [Poly Vinyl Acetate] sealer may have been designed to neutralize the substrate for a better bond. Huh, huh ...what?


I personally don't over think things. The drywall/door frames jobs that I run average about a thousand gallons. I do about six of them a year. God forbid that all of those thousands of gallons of paint just fall off one day! that'd be pretty funny I guess but I really don't think that it is going to happen at this point. Anything is possible but, heck, I bet a good third of my life's work has been repainted by some in house yahoos or re-paint outfits by now anyway. Just sayin. Never had a major problem priming drywall with finish. Thousands and thousands of problem free gallons just don't lie.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> I personally don't over think things. The drywall/door frames jobs that I run average about a thousand gallons. I do about six of them a year. God forbid that all of those thousands of gallons of paint just fall off one day! that'd be pretty funny I guess but I really don't think that it is going to happen at this point. Anything is possible but, heck, I bet a good third of my life's work has been repainted by some in house yahoos or re-paint outfits by now anyway. Just sayin. Never had a major problem priming drywall with finish. Thousands and thousands of problem free gallons just don't lie.


Great! you just made my point why the industry endorses primer/finish paints. 

We had a big debate, a while back on this site, concerning a painter who used a self priming finish paint over a previously painted oil enamel surface, and all the purists insisted on using only primers prior to finish coats, and thought primer/finish paints were a gimmick initiated by HD and Behr LOL! 

I believe these primer/finish flats probably have an acetate component that allows direct application over high PH drywall compound.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Great! you just made my point why the industry endorses primer/finish paints.
> 
> We had a big debate, a while back on this site, concerning a painter who used a self priming finish paint over a previously painted oil enamel surface, and all the purists insisted on using only primers prior to finish coats, and thought primer/finish paints were a gimmick initiated by HD and Behr LOL!
> 
> I believe these primer/finish flats probably have an acetate component that allows direct application over high PH drywall compound.


I was under the impression that it was the acrylic binder that imparts the alkali-resistant properties to latex paints. It's been a while since I did the research on that...the last time we had to paint CMUs.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Great! you just made my point why the industry endorses primer/finish paints.
> 
> We had a big debate, a while back on this site, concerning a painter who used a self priming finish paint over a previously painted oil enamel surface, and all the purists insisted on using only primers prior to finish coats, and thought primer/finish paints were a gimmick initiated by HD and Behr LOL!
> 
> I believe these primer/finish flats probably have an acetate component that allows direct application over high PH drywall compound.


I'm talking bear drywall. I have no cumpunctions at all about priming bear drywall with a good finish paint. They are all self priming on bare rock. Now, a previously finished surface that was finished with oil would be a whole different ball game. I don't know exactly what behr's claim is. I guess you are saying that they claim it as a cure all primer/finish? I didn't realize that. I thought their gimmic was that it primes bare rock. Well being that I beleive any good wall paint is fine to prime bare rock I thought them advertising it as such WAS the gimmic.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Oden said:


> I'm talking bear drywall. I have no cumpunctions at all about priming bear drywall with a good finish paint. They are all self priming on bare rock. Now, a previously finished surface that was finished with oil would be a whole different ball game. I don't know exactly what behr's claim is. I guess you are saying that they claim it as a cure all primer/finish? I didn't realize that. I thought their gimmic was that it primes bare rock. Well being that I beleive any good wall paint is fine to prime bare rock I thought them advertising it as such WAS the gimmic.


It's bare not bear (that would be the animal)!! Cumpunctions (not a word)? Concerns!!

Anyway, behr only claims:
Use BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA® paint as a primer for properly prepared uncoated or painted interior surfaces.

The employees sell as an all in one primer over everything. Problem is when the HO paints over the oil base paint in the bathroom or over the laminate cabinets. Does not work!! I would feel confident using most finishes over bare drywall or wood without a primer. Depending on the expectation of the customer, enamel undercoaters will seal better and show a nicer gloss level over the surface.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> It's bare not bear (that would be the animal)!! Cumpunctions (not a word)? Concerns!!
> 
> Anyway, behr only claims:
> Use BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA® paint as a primer for properly prepared uncoated or painted interior surfaces.
> ...


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compunction


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

MikeCalifornia said:


> It's bare not bear (that would be the animal)!! Cumpunctions (not a word)? Concerns!!
> 
> Anyway, behr only claims:
> Use BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA® paint as a primer for properly prepared uncoated or painted interior surfaces.
> ...


If you are going to appoint yourself the grammar police you should at least be 100 percent right in any corrections you make I would think. Just sayin.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> What is this Behr paint which can be applied to bare drywall without first priming? I will go buy a quart and test it myself. There is really no other way to be able to judge rightfully one way or another.


 behr drywall-behr paint.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> I was under the impression that it was the acrylic binder that imparts the alkali-resistant properties to latex paints. It's been a while since I did the research on that...the last time we had to paint CMUs.


I believe you're correct, being that the vehicle and pigments have nothing to do with binding. 

I'm not a chemist, but I would imagine that paints designed to adhere, and perform over high alkali surfaces, like bare joint compound, would have to contain this resistive property in their resin/binder.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Oden said:


> If you are going to appoint yourself the grammar police you should at least be 100 percent right in any corrections you make I would think. Just sayin.


Your right, I should have spell checked your sentence first! cumpunctions-compunctions. I was just confused at how one would use a very common word like bear instead of bare and then use a very odd word in that instance. I would not consider applying paint over bare drywall a compunction of my conscious. Just sayin.

*com·punc·tion/kəmˈpəNG(k)SHən/*

Noun:

A feeling of guilt or moral scruple that follows the doing of something bad: "spend the money *without compunction*".


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

Oden said:


> Eggshell, low lustre, flat-we always prime with the finish. Nobody could tell the difference between a wall that has 2 coats of promar200 eggshell and a wall that has a coat of primer and 2 coats of promar 200 eggshell. Even if it were my own house I'd put 2 or 3 coats of finish on bare drywall.


 Using pro mar 200 over bare drywall is asking for seriouse adhesion issues. Like when using tape on the wall then peeling away paint down to bare drywall when your remove it.

Unless on the label, paint doesn't have the adheasion of primer...


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

Custom Brush Co. said:


> Using pro mar 200 over bare drywall is asking for seriouse adhesion issues. Like when using tape on the wall then peeling away paint down to bare drywall when your remove it.
> 
> Unless on the label, paint doesn't have the adheasion of primer...


i hate when that happens. i'm often asked to spray ceilings and not walls so you have to tape/poly the walls. often times the paint comes off the walls after removing the poly and tape. grrrrr!

that's an example of NC painters not priming their walls but just applying 2 coats of a cheap hi-hide builders grade paint.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

HJ61 said:


> It's a funny thing with painting, everybody has a little bit different way of doing things. And I'm not sure where the 'rules' that can't be broken come from. I'm willing to try things once and if it saves time/money without compromising quality then I'll change. You gotta do what works for your paradigm.
> 
> Btw, do you roll left to right? Or right to left?


What the hell's a paradigm all I have is a brush, roller and a couple nickels?


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