# First Time Using PPG BreakThrough



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Finally got to try the PPG BreakThrough. Until recently it just wasn't available here. The local Glidden store has been changed to PPG, so now it's here. 

What prompted me to give it a try was a new cabinet job I did last month using Advance. I've used a good bit of Advance over last few years on trim and cabinets. Always been pastel colors, various whites. On this cab job, the color was Amherst Grey (HC-167), a Base3 color. Now I've heard others on this forum say that the cure time for darker colors in Advance is _really_ longer than the lighter colors. Boy is that true. After 9 days, the drawer faces were still tending to stick to the face-frames of the cabinets. Something I think BM is gonna have to address at some point.

Back to the Breakthrough. I was repainting a bathroom in my own house, so I thought I'd give it a try. Sprayed 6 cab doors with a Capspray 9100 HVLP. 
Had to cut it with water and XIM extender to get it to atomize. Same color over existing PC acrylic, so this wasn't much of a test as far as adhesion. But with the fast dry time, I did paint and rehang doors same day.:thumbup:

Next test was some small wooden folding chairs for a client. The chairs were new. Looked like they had a dark green stain topcoated with some kind of clear finish. The finish was slick enough that I kind of doubted an acrlyic finish paint would bond to it. I cleaned with Krudcutter and rinsed well. Next day, I sprayed some Breakthrough on a section of one chair. After a couple of hours of drying, it passed the old fingernail scratch test. 

So to RePaint Florida and the rest here who've recommended PPG Breakthrough, thanks for the tip. It seems to be all you've claimed it to be. :thumbsup:


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Slinger58
find you a kick ball and spray half of it then the next day squeeze it, try to peel it off, hell kick it around and you'll see how good it bonds

now you see how with its fast dry we can spray over 300 doors and ship them out the same week, try that with other paints and see how that works out

Finished one set of cabinets yesterday & start another set tomorrow :thumbup:


----------



## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

What primer are you guts using. 
We use Stix or Smart Prime under Advance.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

That's great man. I don't think if I would have heard about, or tried it as soon as I did if not for PT. I've used it on three sets of cabinets so far, and I'm sure I'll continue with it in some situations. 

Haven't tried the gloss yet, only the satin. Wondering if I might use the gloss as a trim paint in some cases. It would be handy for hard to stick scenarios like oil conversion. Looking at the specs the gloss seems to not have have too much more sheen than your average semi gloss. Around 10 units higher than Advance semi for example. Wondering if it might not pass for a semi gloss trim paint. 

The satin is quite dull. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. I like it fine for cabinets, just a little dull for a trim paint in most cases.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Repaint Florida said:


> Slinger58
> find you a kick ball and spray half of it then the next day squeeze it, try to peel it off, hell kick it around and you'll see how good it bonds
> 
> now you see how with its fast dry we can spray over 300 doors and ship them out the same week, try that with other paints and see how that works out
> ...


How's the durability long term, RF? Got good feedback on that?


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> That's great man. I don't think if I would have heard about, or tried it as soon as I did if not for PT. I've used it on three sets of cabinets so far, and I'm sure I'll continue with it in some situations.
> 
> Haven't tried the gloss yet, only the satin. Wondering if I might use the gloss as a trim paint in some cases. It would be handy for hard to stick scenarios like oil conversion. Looking at the specs the gloss seems to not have have too much more sheen than your average semi gloss. Around 10 units higher than Advance semi for example. Wondering if it might not pass for a semi gloss trim paint.
> 
> The satin is quite dull. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. I like it fine for cabinets, just a little dull for a trim paint in most cases.


In my experience, gloss acrylic=semi-gloss oil. The adhesion of the Breakthrough was what really impressed me. And the dry time.

And yeah, same here as far as awareness of the product. If not for PT, I'd never have known.


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

I usually use Advance for all of my cabinet re paints but thought I would give Breakthrough a shot on this next one. I use a Graco 9.5 HVLP to spray them out and was wondering if you guys use plain water to thin it to atomize properly? On a side note, I purchased the Breakthrough at the local PPG store which I never go to and had to do a double take when I looked at my receipt later. Granted I do not have a charge account there yet, but I am a professional painter and they charged me 77$ per gallon! Their paint rep is supposed to call me and boy am I going to let him hear about it. That price will need to change or it will be the last time I use Breakthrough or any PPG product for that matter!


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Atomize said:


> I usually use Advance for all of my cabinet re paints but thought I would give Breakthrough a shot on this next one. I use a Graco 9.5 HVLP to spray them out and was wondering if you guys use plain water to thin it to atomize properly? On a side note, I purchased the Breakthrough at the local PPG store which I never go to and had to do a double take when I looked at my receipt later. Granted I do not have a charge account there yet, but I am a professional painter and they charged me 77$ per gallon! Their paint rep is supposed to call me and boy am I going to let him hear about it. That price will need to change or it will be the last time I use Breakthrough or any PPG product for that matter!


That's strong! I think it was 48.99 here with no account.


----------



## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> How's the durability long term, RF? Got good feedback on that?


I have been using Breakthrough for the last 4-5 years and have only had 1 customer tell me about a couple small spots on cabinet doors that flaked off. I was not surprised because those particular doors were " modified " by a contractor. I spent an entire day trying to get his modifications to a point that I could even prime them. (scraping caulk and other fillers)
I have sprayed several sets of new unfinished cabinets without any primer with excellent results. 
The main difference I have found between Breakthrough and Advance is the sheen is lower and the finish has a "softer" feel with Breakthrough. Advance has a more true satin appearance and dries to a more oil base feel finish once it has fully cured. I like them both but when time is of the essence Breakthrough wins hands down.
I have also found that the factory tinted colors like Wrought Iron Black do take longer to dry when sprayed.


----------



## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Atomize said:


> I usually use Advance for all of my cabinet re paints but thought I would give Breakthrough a shot on this next one. I use a Graco 9.5 HVLP to spray them out and was wondering if you guys use plain water to thin it to atomize properly? On a side note, I purchased the Breakthrough at the local PPG store which I never go to and had to do a double take when I looked at my receipt later. Granted I do not have a charge account there yet, but I am a professional painter and they charged me 77$ per gallon! Their paint rep is supposed to call me and boy am I going to let him hear about it. That price will need to change or it will be the last time I use Breakthrough or any PPG product for that matter!



No doubt that's a high price per gal, but how many gallons do you use on an average cabinet job? 3? Heck, even if you were to use 4 gallons, I'm guessing the difference in price between the 4 gals of Breakthrough vs. Advance wouldn't be much more than $150, (which your customer pays anyways). Think of the potential time saved between being able to complete the project quicker, ( quicker dry, quicker re-coats, quicker turnaround), as well as not having to spend time fixing nicks from uncured Advance during re-installation.


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Are y'all priming first or just cleaning and shooting breakthrough right after? 

I've yet to try it out but I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a gallon and playing around with it. :yes:

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Are y'all priming first or just cleaning and shooting breakthrough right after? I've yet to try it out but I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a gallon and playing around with it. :yes: Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I do not plan on priming first with the breakthrough because they are factory painted. Just a scuff sand and cleaning. If they were bare wood or cleared I would plan on using a bonding primer such as Stix. I have had fantastic results using Stix under the Advance.


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> No doubt that's a high price per gal, but how many gallons do you use on an average cabinet job? 3? Heck, even if you were to use 4 gallons, I'm guessing the difference in price between the 4 gals of Breakthrough vs. Advance wouldn't be much more than $150, (which your customer pays anyways). Think of the potential time saved between being able to complete the project quicker, ( quicker dry, quicker re-coats, quicker turnaround), as well as not having to spend time fixing nicks from uncured Advance during re-installation.


I totally get what your saying and do see the benefits that Breakthrough could potentially have. But I have a real problem being bent over like that on the price when I know damn well other contractors are paying significantly less. They are making me feel like a DIYer with that price. I hope with some communication, they will reconsider to move forward with forging a new business relationship. If not, oh well because I have been using Advance with excellent results so far and my BM dealer REALLY cares about their contractors needs.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I'd have to admit PPG made a great purchase when they bought the company that developed and manufactured that product. I sold the hell out of it in Socal. Voc complying, fast dry, hard as nails, tint bases, water clean up. Hard to believe the original company almost went belly up. Just another one swallowed up by the corporate system I guess.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> That's strong! I think it was 48.99 here with no account.


High forties is right where it should be for contractors. Beat your rep up on this.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

What ever happened to all you guys that were spraying pre-cat w/r epoxy on cabinets? I can't get rid of the stuff at $38 a gallon!


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

PACman said:


> What ever happened to all you guys that were spraying pre-cat w/r epoxy on cabinets? I can't get rid of the stuff at $38 a gallon!


There were quite a few that stated good results with the Pre-cat. I plan to try spraying it sometime but feel it is a thicker product and would need to be thinned quite a bit to atomize properly with my HVLP. When I do try it, I have an airless with FF tips just in case it doesn't like being thinned down too much.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Atomize said:


> I totally get what your saying and do see the benefits that Breakthrough could potentially have. But I have a real problem being bent over like that on the price when I know damn well other contractors are paying significantly less. They are making me feel like a DIYer with that price. I hope with some communication, they will reconsider to move forward with forging a new business relationship. If not, oh well because I have been using Advance with excellent results so far and my BM dealer REALLY cares about their contractors needs.


This is why I have 1 standard price and any special pricing is done on a per job basis. I give everyone a good price, no one has to feel like they're getting screwed, and there's no fighting me for price because they feel like if they don't they'll be hosed. Contractors sleep better knowing they're getting a good price, and I sleep better because I don't have to deal with constant recalculations of margins and trying to figure out how low I can go. Only time I re-price is if I'm getting a big job and BM lowers my cost on it.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

If you don't have a charge account I don't think you can 'feel screwed'. 
Retail 100% of sticker price
Painter in whites off street no account -10%
Have an account and only buy a few gallons a year -15% to -20%
Large painting company that buys it in large volume +\- 35%

Your paint rep will be able to bring the price down, but it's a game. You need to open a commercial account, and he needs to lower the price. That way you both get something out of the deal.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

oldccm said:


> If you don't have a charge account I don't think you can 'feel screwed'.
> Retail 100% of sticker price
> Painter in whites off street no account -10%
> Have an account and only buy a few gallons a year -15% to -20%
> ...


I kind of get where you're coming from, but on the other hand some companies mark their products way up (far inflated compared to a normal MSRP) for the shelf price to give an illusion of value to the people buying it at a normal rate. If this is the case, you really are getting screwed if you pay the shelf price. Just my opinion.

For example, I walked into a SW a while back dressed in clean, normal-person clothes and asked for a single gallon of ProMar 400. He told me it was $ 59 (hah), but he put me on the "contractor rate" so I got it for $ 30. I didn't ask for the rate, I wasn't buying in bulk, and I told him it was a one time deal. If I didn't 'deserve' to pay shelf price in that situation, clearly no one does. I'm not saying this to slam SW, I'm just saying that sometimes the shelf price is a price that no one does (or should) pay.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

True. I guess my point was unless you're a contractor who purchases from that store are you automatically entitled to a discount? The store sets their prices for whatever reasons, but as a contractor it's bitten me in the a$$ before when I charged a client $5 over my cost for a gallon and they turned around and told me they walked into the store and got it for the same price I did.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

oldccm said:


> If you don't have a charge account I don't think you can 'feel screwed'.
> Retail 100% of sticker price
> Painter in whites off street no account -10%
> Have an account and only buy a few gallons a year -15% to -20%
> ...


Or just stop enabling this pricing game and go to someone who will appreciate your business and give you as good a price as they can. Like an independent store. (I know, I know! They usually don't like to give good price breaks. But to me that's why so many of them have died off. Most independents have the higher price on fewer gallons mentality)


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I kind of get where you're coming from, but on the other hand some companies mark their products way up (far inflated compared to a normal MSRP) for the shelf price to give an illusion of value to the people buying it at a normal rate. If this is the case, you really are getting screwed if you pay the shelf price. Just my opinion.
> 
> For example, I walked into a SW a while back dressed in clean, normal-person clothes and asked for a single gallon of ProMar 400. He told me it was $ 59 (hah), but he put me on the "contractor rate" so I got it for $ 30. I didn't ask for the rate, I wasn't buying in bulk, and I told him it was a one time deal. If I didn't 'deserve' to pay shelf price in that situation, clearly no one does. I'm not saying this to slam SW, I'm just saying that sometimes the shelf price is a price that no one does (or should) pay.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

oldccm said:


> True. I guess my point was unless you're a contractor who purchases from that store are you automatically entitled to a discount? The store sets their prices for whatever reasons, but as a contractor it's bitten me in the a$$ before when I charged a client $5 over my cost for a gallon and they turned around and told me they walked into the store and got it for the same price I did.


That's the SW/PPG price game. And in all honesty you painters are enabling the whole thing when you buy at those stores and never consider anyone else. That's why there are so few "anyone else" stores around anymore. There is no way in he** I would have a 40% sale for retail customers unless;
I had my prices way, way to high in the first place.
I didn't care if that discount was lower the my contractor's pricing.

SW knows full well that if they can get enough homeowners into their stores, many of them buy all their paint during that sale, or will insist that any painter they hire use SW exclusively because when they were in during that sale they picked out all of their colors. Potentially pissing off a few contractors over the lower price during these sales is a calculated risk on the part of SW. They KNOW you will be back, one way or another. That's why I say if you have an independent store in your area, go to them and tell them you want to do business with them, but they need to sharpen their pencils a little bit to get you a better price. If you are honest with them and really do make an attempt to buy from them it will help your case quite a bit. But you wouldn't believe how many contractors will come into my store to get pricing and will turn around and go straight back to SW to have them beat my prices. That's one big reason the independents typically don't give the best price they can. They know they are just being used to get a better deal at SW.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

We use most of the big companies. There's really no little guy except BM. We use them a fair bit and don't haggle too much on price. I do however think I should get a decent discount above and beyond most other companies for the 3 main paints I use. I buy a lot of those products and expect pricing to match that volume. You make some good points though and I'll give you that. I will look over some invoices and see what the 'little guy' is getting from me and see if I can't increase that next month.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

It really is dependent on your area whether there's a 'little guy' that's worth supporting. Some areas just don't have any decent independent retailers (lots of towns with nothing but Ace Hardwares that only stock Valspar, for example). Some areas have lots of regional manufacturers competing for the small guys (which is usually a good thing, over all).


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

oldccm said:


> If you don't have a charge account I don't think you can 'feel screwed'. Retail 100% of sticker price Painter in whites off street no account -10% Have an account and only buy a few gallons a year -15% to -20% Large painting company that buys it in large volume +\- 35% Your paint rep will be able to bring the price down, but it's a game. You need to open a commercial account, and he needs to lower the price. That way you both get something out of the deal.


I appreciate the discussion and all the input but in my opinion, that is a flawed sales model. With my business 75% of my clients ask me what paint I recommend. That by definition makes me a "field" salesman. My local BM dealer has superior products and attempts to help grow my business by referrals. That is why I steer clients towards BM products (based upon the clients price point they budget for materials). SW has the name recognition with the little old ladies. SW doesn't kick me referrals but what they do try to do is find out what products I use and and offer something similar with great prices and they are everywhere(open on Sunday's to boot). PPG missed out on an opportunity to take business from a competitor by offering me at least a reasonable discount right from the start. Instead they opted for instant gratification by gouging me when they could have had the opportunity for repeat business. That model works when your the only game in town and I seriously doubt when I use breakthrough I will be sooooo blown away that I will return to PPG and beg them to sell me it at 77$/gal. Manor Hall was the bomb in the 90's but everyone else has surpassed that benchmark by a mile or 2. I understand that is the way the pricing model works but I think are more effective options. I feel a little guilty anyhow for even trying PPG and using SW occasionally when BM treats me just fine. Sorry for the rant!


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Atomize said:


> I appreciate the discussion and all the input but in my opinion, that is a flawed sales model. With my business 75% of my clients ask me what paint I recommend. That by definition makes me a "field" salesman. My local BM dealer has superior products and attempts to help grow my business by referrals. That is why I steer clients towards BM products (based upon the clients price point they budget for materials). SW has the name recognition with the little old ladies. SW doesn't kick me referrals but what they do try to do is find out what products I use and and offer something similar with great prices and they are everywhere(open on Sunday's to boot). PPG missed out on an opportunity to take business from a competitor by offering me at least a reasonable discount right from the start. Instead they opted for instant gratification by gouging me when they could have had the opportunity for repeat business. That model works when your the only game in town and I seriously doubt when I use breakthrough I will be sooooo blown away that I will return to PPG and beg them to sell me it at 77$/gal. Manor Hall was the bomb in the 90's but everyone else has surpassed that benchmark by a mile or 2. I understand that is the way the pricing model works but I think are more effective options. I feel a little guilty anyhow for even trying PPG and using SW occasionally when BM treats me just fine. Sorry for the rant!


Well one thing I can tell you having worked for both SW and PPG for ten years apiece is that whoever charged you that price in the first place wasn't doing their job correctly. Was it possibly a part time warm body they tend to staff their stores with on Weekends so they can be open in the first place? Either that or a badly trained manager. Whichever it was they screwed the pooch on this one. Unless they come to you with some damn good pricing and some kind of assurance that they will have competent people in their stores from now on I would steer clear. If the Ben Moore dealer has any business sense he will be glad to work with you on price and he will absolutely love working with the little old ladies and color matching SW colors. That's how smart independents survive.

Would you consider a bit of a commute to my store to buy paint?


----------



## Atomize (Mar 25, 2014)

PACman said:


> Well one thing I can tell you having worked for both SW and PPG for ten years apiece is that whoever charged you that price in the first place wasn't doing their job correctly. Was it possibly a part time warm body they tend to staff their stores with on Weekends so they can be open in the first place? Either that or a badly trained manager. Whichever it was they screwed the pooch on this one. Unless they come to you with some damn good pricing and some kind of assurance that they will have competent people in their stores from now on I would steer clear. If the Ben Moore dealer has any business sense he will be glad to work with you on price and he will absolutely love working with the little old ladies and color matching SW colors. That's how smart independents survive. Would you consider a bit of a commute to my store to buy paint?


This wasn't a new guy. I have had bids that spec'd sunproof and talked to this guy before for pricing which wasn't astronomical if I remember correctly. I just wanted to see what the breakthrough was all about to possibly have a fast option to my cabinet repaints. My current system of Stix/Advance is flawless so no loss there. It seemed like I was offered no respect by that kind of price. Really it's no skin off my back because the client pays for materials just bad business and no respect for the guy that butters their bread that's all I am getting at. If I am ever in your neck of the woods for work you'll get my paint order! Aura all day long!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman sells California at the moment (until I can convince him to add BM to his lines!  ); also a good quality paint, though.

On another track, I have an open ended question for all of the contractors here:

Would you rather every store in town sold you paint for their "best" rate plus maybe 2-5% depending on the line all the time (no matter how much you bought from them), or that you got the "best" rate at one store and got gouged (+20-100% higher) at the others?

Personally, I would think it would be much more beneficial to be able to cherry pick the best of paints, sundries, and services from the whole group of paint stores all at a reasonable price than to get a good price at one who requires your absolute loyalty to keep that pricing intact. I'm not trying to push any particular way, but I think I'd rather have it the former way if I were on the other side of the business, so that's how I run mine. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm just curious what you guys think.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

We recently had the same problem with SW. They came to us and said they wanted our business then sent us laughable price numbers. We told them that and the numbers changed to less laughable. 
Recently a long time manager of a Dulux store quit and went to work for SW. I gave her a call and asked her to 'sharpen the pencil'. She came back with numbers that blew the SW Sales Rep out of the water. She remembered exactly what we paid at Dulux and made all her numbers line up +\- $1 on every comparable product. 
Is it a game? Yes
Is it a ****ty game? Yes
But we only have ourselves (and big box stores) to blame for it.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> PACman sells California at the moment (until I can convince him to add BM to his lines!  ); also a good quality paint, though.
> 
> On another track, I have an open ended question for all of the contractors here:
> 
> ...


I like transparency. From retailers. From clients. From contractors.

The more transparency the better, as far as I'm concerned.

It just may work to improve everyone's reputation.

It would incentivize things like fairness, honesty, performance.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I guess maybe, for me, it just comes down to not wanting to play the game. I don't like ripping people off, and I don't like losing sleep because I'm trying to sell so low I can't keep the lights on to compete.

Of course, I've got it pretty easy given that most of our income comes from lumber, not paint, and that I'm not the owner. But I still have a vested interest in doing well (obviously) since we still have to stand on our own two feet. I'd rather give everyone what I feel is a fair price and maybe lose out on gouging a few HO's and small time contractors that don't know better. I don't have to worry about painters overhearing what I'm charging another painter, or them trying to compare notes to beat me down on prices. Everyone knows the only discount is for large, single purchases- and the only reason for that is that BM sells it to me for less in those cases.

I guess in a lot of ways I'm lucky to be able to try out this little social/economic experiment here, but so far I've been really happy with how it's played out and I think my customers have been, too. There's always a bit of confusion when I tell a new contractor that there's no discount rate for paint, but then they see the reasonable shelf prices and realize they don't have to bargain and I can kind of see it sink in. I like it. It'd be a simpler world if it all happened this way.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> PACman sells California at the moment (until I can convince him to add BM to his lines!  ); also a good quality paint, though.
> 
> On another track, I have an open ended question for all of the contractors here:
> 
> ...


Aura? I don't need no stinking Aura! I got Superscrub for $20 a gallon less.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

oldccm said:


> We recently had the same problem with SW. They came to us and said they wanted our business then sent us laughable price numbers. We told them that and the numbers changed to less laughable.
> Recently a long time manager of a Dulux store quit and went to work for SW. I gave her a call and asked her to 'sharpen the pencil'. She came back with numbers that blew the SW Sales Rep out of the water. She remembered exactly what we paid at Dulux and made all her numbers line up +\- $1 on every comparable product.
> Is it a game? Yes
> Is it a ****ty game? Yes
> But we only have ourselves (and big box stores) to blame for it.


Maybe so, but I believe that can be fixed. That's why I opened my own store. There is a dark underworld in the paint business, and if given the chance I can certainly give some insights into how it works. And not only how the pricing game is played but the motivation behind it. But unfortunately the price game can sometimes come down to a store clerk or even a manager having a bad day or having his butt chewed out because his margins aren't high enough. You wouldn't believe some of the petty profit related reasons I have seen good long term employees fired for. Sw is the worst, with PPG a close second. That kind of thing hanging over a young store managers head can cause them to make some pretty bad business decisions.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Good points. Our business model is pretty simple. 
-give us a price, don't raise it 4 times a year for blah blah reason and we will spend $40k a month in your store. Sounds so simple, yet stores continuously try to nickel and dime and screw us around constantly.


----------



## Splitter (Sep 29, 2012)

Ditto on the Breakthrough. Been using it on school handrails and heavy traffic doors for almost 3 years now. Excellent product. Just continue with the prep, sand, wipe off grease, degloss, etc. Fast dry even on humid days in S. Fla. What we like is you can paint a door and close it on a rubber seal without sticking. Once you cut and roll a door, don't even try to back roll. Let it dry. Walk away and do the next one. Just today we did the Band Room Stage in a Middle School Jet black. It looks great and will clear coat it next week with BT Gloss. Cleans up nice, and you get a little Butyl Ethanol Buzz. On the work we have done, No Major Call Backs...only a little nick here and there from a kids zipper on his book bag. Another similar product is from SW Multi Surface Acrylic close to same price per gal. Remember, paint on the walls, doors, etc. Not on the carpet or the Customers flooring!!!


----------



## Surreal Painting (May 10, 2015)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Are y'all priming first or just cleaning and shooting breakthrough right after?
> 
> I've yet to try it out but I'm looking forward to getting my hands on a gallon and playing around with it. :yes:
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Not priming but always testing first. Last thing I want is a redo or an angry customer. 

OP. Glad you liked it. I love the paint. I'm gonna go do like some one said and paint half a soccor/basketball with it.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I talked to my Ben Moore rep the other day and asked him what BM had that was similar to Breakthrough. He said I should try out Rust Scat (from Coronado). Have any of you ever tried it? It's a latex enamel with "tenacious adhesion" and now I'm a bit curious about it. It seems to be very similar as far as application, dry time, etc.


----------



## jw129943 (Apr 3, 2014)

I gave Breakthrough a whirl as well, and loved the fast dry time, but really prefer the finish of Advance. Curious as to what the semi-gloss looks like for Breakthrough. Maybe a mix of half semi/half satin will give me the sheen I'm wanting? ;-)


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I talked to my Ben Moore rep the other day and asked him what BM had that was similar to Breakthrough. He said I should try out Rust Scat (from Coronado). Have any of you ever tried it? It's a latex enamel with "tenacious adhesion" and now I'm a bit curious about it. It seems to be very similar as far as application, dry time, etc.


I'm curious about that too, as it is very likely that I will be picking up the Coronado line in 2016. I have heard a few comments about Rust Scat but not much. Maybe my rep will get me a sample.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

PACman said:


> I'm curious about that too, as it is very likely that I will be picking up the Coronado line in 2016. I have heard a few comments about Rust Scat but not much. Maybe my rep will get me a sample.


My rep offered me a freebie, but I'm not sure what I'd do with it; I don't have much to compare it to. Maybe just do what I normally do and see how well it hides and how durable it is, but realistically I'd like to compare it to something, be that Breakthrough or Pre-Cat. Not sure my boss will want to give me $50-120 to try those, though


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> My rep offered me a freebie, but I'm not sure what I'd do with it; I don't have much to compare it to. Maybe just do what I normally do and see how well it hides and how durable it is, but realistically I'd like to compare it to something, be that Breakthrough or Pre-Cat. Not sure my boss will want to give me $50-120 to try those, though


It's unfortunate that we only try products to satisfy ourselves though. I wish more painters would consider that we actually try the products, and know a little bit more about them than the Box store, SW, and PPG sales clones will ever know about them because they are only going off what the "corporate marketing" hypnotizes them to say.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

At the very least, it's nice that I can say "yah, I've tried this, look out for this and this and make sure you do this," or "compared to what you've been using, this won't go quite as far but holds up better and you can see on my board here that it hides much better," etc. I may not be a painter, but at least this way I can give out a bit of practical advice.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> At the very least, it's nice that I can say "yah, I've tried this, look out for this and this and make sure you do this," or "compared to what you've been using, this won't go quite as far but holds up better and you can see on my board here that it hides much better," etc. I may not be a painter, but at least this way I can give out a bit of practical advice.


Along these lines, I just yesterday told one of my vendor reps I wanted their acrylic DTM out of my store. I tested it against my other vendors' acrylic DTM and it was horrible. Put them side by side on four different metal samples and after a thirty day cure this particular product would peel right off. The other one I could bang on the edge of my metal work bench and it wouldn't let go.

That's another advantage I have that the box stores or even SW and PPG don't have. They HAVE to sell what they carry. The don't have any options unless their company decides to upgrade the product. Me, I can just tell them it's crap and I'm going to sell my other brand instead because it actually works.

FYI, the acrylic DTM that failed was a "shared" product with another well known and loved, commonly spec'ed brand of DTM. (nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.)


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

It's funny, in theory acrylic DTMs should work better than oil based in a lot of scenarios (especially with galvanized metal), but it seems like some of them just aren't there yet.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> Along these lines, I just yesterday told one of my vendor reps I wanted their acrylic DTM out of my store. I tested it against my other vendors' acrylic DTM and it was horrible. Put them side by side on four different metal samples and after a thirty day cure this particular product would peel right off. The other one I could bang on the edge of my metal work bench and it wouldn't let go.
> 
> That's another advantage I have that the box stores or even SW and PPG don't have. They HAVE to sell what they carry. The don't have any options unless their company decides to upgrade the product. Me, I can just tell them it's crap and I'm going to sell my other brand instead because it actually works.
> 
> FYI, the acrylic DTM that failed was a "shared" product with another well known and loved, commonly spec'ed brand of DTM. (nudge, nudge. Wink, wink.)


Why not name both DTMs you are talking about? You don't want to hurt the feelings of one brand? But you also don't want to endorse one high performing product?

I'd be interested in hearing what your side-by-side testing has shown.

This is especially important with a relatively new category of coatings like acrylic DTMs, as many of us are trying to adopt and figure them out.

We're all adults here. We can act on your advice or ignore it.


----------



## Splitter (Sep 29, 2012)

*Breakthrough Sheens*

The product comes in two sheens, Gloss or Satin only...


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

jw129943 said:


> I gave Breakthrough a whirl as well, and loved the fast dry time, but really prefer the finish of Advance. Curious as to what the semi-gloss looks like for Breakthrough. Maybe a mix of half semi/half satin will give me the sheen I'm wanting? ;-)





Splitter said:


> The product comes in two sheens, Gloss or Satin only...


I caught that too, but I just assumed jw129943 was asking what a mix of the two Breakthrough sheens would look like.

Has anyone done a half-n-half mix of Gloss and Satin?

Did is resemble a Semi-Gloss, with no odd application/performance side-effects?

The general rule I've heard when inter-mixing sheens is that the lower sheen predominates. If that were to hold true for BT, then a 50/50 mix would dry closer to the Satin instead of lining up halfway between Satin and Gloss.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

I've got to do my kitchen cabinets this winter. Reading this thread I'm leaning towards Advance, good info. Thx guys


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Why not name both DTMs you are talking about? You don't want to hurt the feelings of one brand? But you also don't want to endorse one high performing product?
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing what your side-by-side testing has shown.
> 
> ...


Actually acrylic DTM products have been around for a long time, but the changes in voc laws have pushed them to the forefront. The one that sucked was the P&l, which is the same product that Sw sells. After 30 days it peals right off of just about any metal surface I put it on. But, that product is at least 25 years old, and I doubt if it has seen any significant updates to its formulation. The one that stuck like crazy after 30 days was California Novus, which is a much newer product.

There, now I get to listen to all the comments about how full of sh*t I am and how anything made by SW absolutely HAS to be the best thing on earth. Again, I have the samples if anyone needs a nice clean sheet of DTM to take home.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

I paint paint said:


> I caught that too, but I just assumed jw129943 was asking what a mix of the two Breakthrough sheens would look like.
> 
> Has anyone done a half-n-half mix of Gloss and Satin?
> 
> ...


I mix Advance satin and semi or gloss often . The sheen when dry is always on the glossier side but a killer look and feel. I've only used breakthrough a couple times the satin is almost a flat. But I hav'nt given it enough time to really know the product and I know lots of guys love it. I'd mix the gloss and satin and try it why not :yes:


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

PACman said:


> Actually acrylic DTM products have been around for a long time, but the changes in voc laws have pushed them to the forefront. The one that sucked was the P&l, which is the same product that Sw sells. After 30 days it peals right off of just about any metal surface I put it on. But, that product is at least 25 years old, and I doubt if it has seen any significant updates to its formulation. The one that stuck like crazy after 30 days was California Novus, which is a much newer product.
> 
> There, now I get to listen to all the comments about how full of sh*t I am and how anything made by SW absolutely HAS to be the best thing on earth. Again, I have the samples if anyone needs a nice clean sheet of DTM to take home.


I like Cali paints allot was a big fan of Aquafleck back in the day. I use allot of 2010 . Anyway the best DTM I've ever used was PPG hands down.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

PACman said:


> Actually acrylic DTM products have been around for a long time, but the changes in voc laws have pushed them to the forefront. The one that sucked was the P&l, which is the same product that Sw sells. After 30 days it peals right off of just about any metal surface I put it on. But, that product is at least 25 years old, and I doubt if it has seen any significant updates to its formulation. The one that stuck like crazy after 30 days was California Novus, which is a much newer product.


Thanks! All of that is really informative and helpful.

Thank you.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I mix Advance satin and semi or gloss often . The sheen when dry is always on the glossier side but a killer look and feel. I've only used breakthrough a couple times the satin is almost a flat. But I hav'nt given it enough time to really know the product and I know lots of guys love it. I'd mix the gloss and satin and try it why not :yes:



I was told mixing satin and gloss breakthrough will still be much closer to satin than semi gloss.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I like Cali paints allot was a big fan of Aquafleck back in the day. I use allot of 2010 . Anyway the best DTM I've ever used was PPG hands down.


The Pitt-tech is a great product line. Another one of my former favorite products to sell when I was with PPG.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> The Pitt-tech is a great product line. Another one of my former favorite products to sell when I was with PPG.


I'm going to compare the SW Procryl, and PPG Pitt Tech Plus TDS's today to see which one I will use on an exterior project coming up. I generally use Pit Tech Plus, but I have had really good results with the SW Shercryl, and was informed that the Procryl is an excellent DTM. 

At this point, I'm leaning towards the PTP.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I'm going to compare the SW Procryl, and PPG Pitt Tech Plus TDS's today to see which one I will use on an exterior project coming up. I generally use Pit Tech Plus, but I have had really good results with the SW Shercryl, and was informed that the Procryl is an excellent DTM.
> 
> At this point, I'm leaning towards the PTP.


I'd test them. The Pitt-tech plus is the way I would go, but I've heard that the Procryl is a good product also.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> I'd test them. The Pitt-tech plus is the way I would go, but I've heard that the Procryl is a good product also.


I have sampled the PTP on an exterior metal Kynar coated parapet siding. One coat seems to have held up well for about three years now. It suffered a little sheen fade and slight color fade, but for a deep tint, I think it has performed well for a Southern exposure.

The Shercryl, on the same type of siding, has also held up well, albeit with a little more sheen deterioration. I did however, use the bonding primer underneath the Shercryl, but will eliminate that step in the next phase because the surface of the existing siding is grossly faded and dulled. 

This time, I'm planning on pressure washing, followed by one coat of either PTP or Procryl. I'm just not alloted the time to do anything further. I'm going to be a spraying fool on this 40' exterior!


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

BM has a very new acrylic DTM (Ultra Spec branded). I'm interested in trying it out but haven't had the chance. I'm curious how it will hold up compared to the above- BM hasn't exactly been a real big leader in the more commercial/industrial end of things in the past. Not sure if it's because they haven't had the products or just haven't had luck with the products they do have. Don't know anyone who used the old DTM regularly.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> BM has a very new acrylic DTM (Ultra Spec branded). I'm interested in trying it out but haven't had the chance. I'm curious how it will hold up compared to the above- BM hasn't exactly been a real big leader in the more commercial/industrial end of things in the past. Not sure if it's because they haven't had the products or just haven't had luck with the products they do have. Don't know anyone who used the old DTM regularly.


I've had good results with BM Ironclad and Super Spec Urethane Alkyd, but they are no longer available.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I believe they're still making the Super Spec Urethane Alkyd; is your store not stocking it anymore or did they tell you it's not being made anymore? It's still in the 2015 catalogue, at least.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Damon T said:


> I was told mixing satin and gloss breakthrough will still be much closer to satin than semi gloss.


I hav'nt tried it with BT but with the Advance as I said it's more on the semi side but a killer finish IMHO.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I believe they're still making the Super Spec Urethane Alkyd; is your store not stocking it anymore or did they tell you it's not being made anymore? It's still in the 2015 catalogue, at least.


Maybe a state of California thing. Hasn't it set building material regulations that go above and beyond most other states?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> Maybe a state of California thing. Hasn't it set building material regulations that go above and beyond most other states?


BINGO! Albeit pretty obvious.


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

So Drake missed an obvious one?

Dayum. He's got some explaining to do.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> So Drake missed an obvious one?
> 
> Dayum. He's got some explaining to do.



No No, you, Drake, PACman, and the whole darn funny bunch of ya's, is great! 

Is it too late for me to make friends


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> No No, you, Drake, PACman, and the whole darn funny bunch of ya's, is great!
> 
> Is it too late for me to make friends


Aw, f**kit. I'll be your friend, CA. I'm such a soft touch.:yes:


----------



## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> No No, you, Drake, PACman, and the whole darn funny bunch of ya's, is great!
> 
> Is it too late for me to make friends


Not too late. We're all gonna head out your way one day, bring our bicycles, and go pubbing together. We'll know where to find you by following the trail of Shercryl and oyster liquor.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> Not too late. We're all gonna head out your way one day, bring our bicycles, and go pubbing together. We'll know where to find you by following the trail of Shercryl and oyster liquor.


Anything but Tequila. That's stuf is the ruin of me.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm from east coast, I try not to think about crazy Cali laws too much


----------

