# There isn't a good cabinet paint



## bluegrassdan

So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


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## rosespainting

Why not try BMs insl-x cabinet coat, or BM Advanced? And what is wrong with Breakthrough? I haven't used it much, but have heard great things.


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## bluegrassdan

The word is the low voc version isnt as good. That is all I can get in Canada i think. I know the Advance yellows and people on here say the Inslx mars.


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## woodcoyote

Sorry to say you aren't going to find a good cabinet paint in the box stores and probably not even in the stocked "regular" paint stores either. 

You need to be looking into the high grade finishes and industrial type coatings. Ask yourself this, do cabinet manufacturers that ship out their products by the thousands every day use regular latex paint as their medium and choice of product? 

The answer is no, they do not. It would be a disaster for them with scratches, nicks/dings, etc. A baked on finish or other high end finishes are utilized instead. I've looked at a few "paint" grade finishes from cab companies and you can't hardly even scratch the stuff. A regular latex paint isn't even close to an apple/apple comparison.

I'd head over to a real paint store, whatever is available in your area, and really talk to them. See what products they have available from a more industrial standpoint. 

These products will separate you from the joe bloe painter looking to put killz/guards on followed by a top coat of an enamel paint. Night and day difference in finishes.


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## Tprice2193

Get you some generalfinishes white poly from Amazon. My current favorite. I would put it in the pigmented lacquer category vs paint. I spray it with an HVLP.


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## lilpaintchic

I just did a set with scuff x. Totally happy with it and so is the customer. Bm product. Smooth, dries fast and hard. It's not a conversion varnish though in the right situation lenmar conversion varnish is bomb imo.
But for paint grade cabs, scuff x should be just fine.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Mr Smith

lilpaintchic said:


> I just did a set with scuff x. Totally happy with it and so is the customer. Bm product. Smooth, dries fast and hard. It's not a conversion varnish though in the right situation lenmar conversion varnish is bomb imo.
> But for paint grade cabs, scuff x should be just fine.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Do you think Scuff-X is better than Breakthrough? Harder finish? Does it run on verticals? it would be nice to use a wooden hangar and spray both sides at once. I just built a PVC spray rack for just that purpose. Some painter on YouTube showed how to build it. It was simple to build and can be broken down for storage and portability.

Would spraying "Stays Clear" poly from BM make the Scuff-X even tougher? The General finishes poly is good too. I've never top-coated paint with a poly before.

One thing I don't like about Advance is it doesn't roll well. It leaves a stipple and doesn't level out when rolling the boxes. Cabinet Coat leaves a texture too.


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## lilpaintchic

Personally, for what we do, I'm totally happy with scuff x. Ez to maintain, ez to spray, roll, cut whatever. Lays down nice with no extender and a good open time. 
Of the products available, I prefer it. I can't use a 16hr recoat product and 9 times put of 10, I can't use solvents or otherwise super smelly stuff. I like how hard it gets a d it does it pretty quickly...i was surprised at the 24 he mark. I wouldn't put a clear coat over it...i don't think it needs it. It's about 10 times the product pro classic is.
I do like breakthrough on the couple sets I did but it has caveats that I'm just not into. And the learning curve for spraying it was frustrating....
And the price is right (on scuff x) to boot!

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## Rbriggs82

My concern with the scuffx is how it holds up to handling long term. I've found that most latex paints tend to get gummy around heavily used areas of doors then scratch off. I know breakthrough doesn't but as you said learning how to spray it is not fun. I've found its best sprayed with a 308.

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## Mr Smith

Rbriggs82 said:


> My concern with the scuffx is how it holds up to handling long term. I've found that most latex paints tend to get gummy around heavily used areas of doors then scratch off. I know breakthrough doesn't but as you said learning how to spray it is not fun. I've found its best sprayed with a 308.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


When referring to PPG Breakthrough I wish people would say which VOC version they are using. They are two totally different products in my opinion.

Every single Canadian painter (and California) can only buy the low VOC version which is not good for cabinets.


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## Rbriggs82

Mr Smith said:


> When referring to PPG Breakthrough I wish people would say which VOC version they are using. They are two totally different products in my opinion.
> 
> Every single Canadian painter (and California) can only buy the low VOC version which is not good for cabinets.


I use the good stuff, although from what I understand the only difference I that the higher VOC version adheres slightly better.


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## jennifertemple

bluegrassdan said:


> So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


I've never found a better cabinet paint than Para Ultra Hybrid (I prefer eggshell)
http://para.com/product/ultra-hybrid-eggshell-2/


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## lilpaintchic

I feel ya. I dunno how it's gonna wear down the road, but it definitely has a much harder finish than proclassic or something like it...meh. long enough to out last the warranty if nothing else!



Rbriggs82 said:


> My concern with the scuffx is how it holds up to handling long term. I've found that most latex paints tend to get gummy around heavily used areas of doors then scratch off. I know breakthrough doesn't but as you said learning how to spray it is not fun. I've found its best sprayed with a 308.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## jacob33

lilpaintchic said:


> I feel ya. I dunno how it's gonna wear down the road, but it definitely has a much harder finish than proclassic or something like it...meh. long enough to out last the warranty if nothing else!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk







Are you refering to proclassic oil or the acrylic proclassic. I still use the oil but would like to find a waterbased to replace it I just have never found one I was happy with. Breakthrough was until the lower voc version. I have had trouble with advanced staying soft and sticky too long especially in darker colors. 



I have tried a couple of the waterbased industrial paints frp, sherwin williams but never been to happy with them either. I was hoping to try scuff x and see if it did the trick as the local BM store started carrying it. I would like to try cabinet coat but no one carries it near me.


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## Center_line_Painting

....it's like breakthrough has hit hard times on painttalk...
As soon as it's brought up, there is a deep wail from the bellows of all painters.

But why can't we just have the high voc version??:vs_sob:


low voc version in NJ is just fine. Adheres to BIN well. My fingernails are hard as a rock and they dent the wood (and paint) together. Meaning the paint doesn't come off.

Great to hear some news on the scuff-x. It won't be put in my HVLP anytime soon, but might consider switching things up and trying airless on a set later in the year.


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## Rbriggs82

Center_line_Painting said:


> ....it's like breakthrough has hit hard times on painttalk...
> As soon as it's brought up, there is a deep wail from the bellows of all painters.
> 
> But why can't we just have the high voc version??:vs_sob:
> 
> 
> low voc version in NJ is just fine. Adheres to BIN well. My fingernails are hard as a rock and they dent the wood (and paint) together. Meaning the paint doesn't come off.
> 
> Great to hear some news on the scuff-x. It won't be put in my HVLP anytime soon, but might consider switching things up and trying airless on a set later in the year.


Most of the time the higher VOC version adheres so well without a primer you dent the wood before getting it to scratch off. The low VOC is just fine, not as good worth using especially over a solvent based primer. I bet it still adheres better than most latex adhesion primers (I don't trust those). 

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## lilpaintchic

Oil is king.the end.
I was referring to the pc hybrid and the acrylic. Both pale in comparison.

That being said we are forced to adjust to new technology regardless of its inferiority. It sucks.
All I have is my own experiences, and those tell me scuff x is a great product for my everyday needs. 

Give it a try! Just paint door or something in it and decide for yourself.
Personally, I don't have time for advance and apparently acrylic impervo is crappy compared to this.


jacob33 said:


> Are you refering to proclassic oil or the acrylic proclassic. I still use the oil but would like to find a waterbased to replace it I just have never found one I was happy with. Breakthrough was until the lower voc version. I have had trouble with advanced staying soft and sticky too long especially in darker colors.
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried a couple of the waterbased industrial paints frp, sherwin williams but never been to happy with them either. I was hoping to try scuff x and see if it did the trick as the local BM store started carrying it. I would like to try cabinet coat but no one carries it near me.


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## Rbriggs82

lilpaintchic said:


> Personally, I don't have time for advance and apparently acrylic impervo is crappy compared to this.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Ain't nobody got time fo dat! 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## ridesarize

My BM manager told me Cabinet Coat will be made available in a deep base soon. I love that product.

He also said a local painter loves using BM Corotech on cabinets, self priming, fast dry oil and its super tough. 

I used Advance on 3 sets of cabinets lately, with tremendously happy clients. 2 of 3 were deep base color.

The cabinet maker that I painted for, says when he paints his stuff he goes with ML Cambell pre cat pigmented lacquer. custom made batches avail in any color.


Just some random info

Here's a couple of my recents


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## PNW Painter

Ask your BM dealer if they can order Lenmar products. Here’s a link to the Lenmar Waterborne Finish Systems webpage:
http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Target Coatings would be another option. They can match BM colors and ship it to you.




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## Jmayspaint

I started a set yesterday that is getting Advance. It’s been a good while since I’ve used anything other than Breakthrough but this customer wanted an alkyd finish. 

I think Advance is fine for cabinets if you can deal with long drying times. It more than doubles the amount of turn around time compared to BT if you follow spec. Sure does look nice though. 


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## woodcoyote

Jmayspaint said:


> I started a set yesterday that is getting Advance. It’s been a good while since I’ve used anything other than Breakthrough but this customer wanted an alkyd finish.
> 
> I think Advance is fine for cabinets if you can deal with long drying times. It more than doubles the amount of turn around time compared to BT if you follow spec. Sure does look nice though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Question. Can you scratch it with your finger nail? Just curious. I posted pictures awhile ago on another thread about scratches. You can see the lines at an angle. Doesn't come off or anything, but you see em. 

Curious if the BM stuff does the same thing.


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## cocomonkeynuts

woodcoyote said:


> Question. Can you scratch it with your finger nail? Just curious. I posted pictures awhile ago on another thread about scratches. You can see the lines at an angle. Doesn't come off or anything, but you see em.
> 
> Curious if the BM stuff does the same thing.


Nope advance hard as a rock and does not mar like CC, BT and most other acrylics.


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## Mr Smith

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Nope advance hard as a rock and does not mar like CC, BT and most other acrylics.


I thought Scuff-X doesn't mar. Isn't it acrylic? 

BM should come up with a hardener for Advance.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Mr Smith said:


> I thought Scuff-X doesn't mar. Isn't it acrylic?


"most other acrylics" key word. Scuffx is some black magic I don't understand. Even just dry to the touch and not fully cured it gains some scuff/clean resistance.



Mr Smith said:


> BM should come up with a hardener for Advance.


Keep your ears peeled.:vs_cool:


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## Mr Smith

cocomonkeynuts said:


> "most other acrylics" key word. Scuffx is some black magic I don't understand. Even just dry to the touch and not fully cured it gains some scuff/clean resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep your ears peeled.:vs_cool:


Are you going to test Scuff-X for cabinets? That would be a good selling point if true. Spray some doors as samples.


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## Rbriggs82

cocomonkeynuts said:


> "most other acrylics" key word. Scuffx is some black magic I don't understand. Even just dry to the touch and not fully cured it gains some scuff/clean resistance.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep your ears peeled.:vs_cool:


Any idea on how it'll hold up to hand oils from always getting handled long term?

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## PPD

ridesarize said:


> My BM manager told me Cabinet Coat will be made available in a deep base soon. I love that product.
> 
> He also said a local painter loves using BM Corotech on cabinets, self priming, fast dry oil and its super tough.
> 
> I used Advance on 3 sets of cabinets lately, with tremendously happy clients. 2 of 3 were deep base color.
> 
> The cabinet maker that I painted for, says when he paints his stuff he goes with ML Cambell pre cat pigmented lacquer. custom made batches avail in any color.
> 
> 
> Just some random info
> 
> Here's a couple of my recents




I don’t know why but something about those pictures made me so happy ...must be the color


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> Any idea on how it'll hold up to hand oils from always getting handled long term?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I have yet to try the scuff x, but there is no way its harder than Advance. My Rep certainly doesn't recommend it for cabinets. However I would like to try it.
I tested some doors with the Breakthrough (Canadian version) with good results, but not as hard a finish as the Advance..Pretty darn nice though. And yes, quicker recoat time.
I personally don't mind the long recoat time. Its no different than an oil finish..


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> I have yet to try the scuff x, but there is no way its harder than Advance. My Rep certainly doesn't recommend it for cabinets. However I would like to try it.
> I tested some doors with the Breakthrough (Canadian version) with good results, but not as hard a finish as the Advance..Pretty darn nice though. And yes, quicker recoat time.
> I personally don't mind the long recoat time. Its no different than an oil finish..


I can't get behind Advance. I've tired it and the long cure/Re-coat is a killer for me. Add in that it yellows just like oil and I take a pass on it. 

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## lilpaintchic

Bingo.


Rbriggs82 said:


> I can't get behind Advance. I've tired it and the long cure/Re-coat is a killer for me. Add in that it yellows just like oil and I take a pass on it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> I can't get behind Advance. I've tired it and the long cure/Re-coat is a killer for me. Add in that it yellows just like oil and I take a pass on it.
> 
> What have you been using Rbriggs? I'm never usually working with bright whites anyhow. Usually like ballet white etc. Is the yellowing that bad? Either way, I would safely say that any of these products would leave some maring, unless you could safely put a clear coat on them. Would a coat of stays clear work?However I have found the finish on the Advance is much superior to anything else I have tried.
> Would be interested in maybe trying some available precat epoxies or the likes.
> I also agree that the cabinet shops would be using harder products like lacquers etc. ,but most of us (myself included) probably don't have the ventilation setup for that, or personally just don't want to work with those harsh chemicals..


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## bluegrassdan

I recoated a set of cupboards in white Advance that were just done 8 months prior and noticed a big difference. The new white coat was a lot whiter than the older finish.


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> Rbriggs82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't get behind Advance. I've tired it and the long cure/Re-coat is a killer for me. Add in that it yellows just like oil and I take a pass on it.
> 
> What have you been using Rbriggs? I'm never usually working with bright whites anyhow. Usually like ballet white etc. Is the yellowing that bad? Either way, I would safely say that any of these products would leave some maring, unless you could safely put a clear coat on them. Would a coat of stays clear work?However I have found the finish on the Advance is much superior to anything else I have tried.
> Would be interested in maybe trying some available precat epoxies or the likes.
> I also agree that the cabinet shops would be using harder products like lacquers etc. ,but most of us (myself included) probably don't have the ventilation setup for that, or personally just don't want to work with those harsh chemicals..
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes straight white but mostly off whites. I'm with you in not wanting to play with lacquers. I'll spray BIN and that's about as far as I'm willing to go.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


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## Center_line_Painting

finishesbykevyn said:


> Rbriggs82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What have you been using Rbriggs? I'm never usually working with bright whites anyhow. Usually like ballet white etc. Is the yellowing that bad? Either way, I would safely say that any of these products would leave some maring, unless you could safely put a clear coat on them. Would a coat of stays clear work?However I have found the finish on the Advance is much superior to anything else I have tried.
> 
> 
> 
> I think someone just shared some pictures of breakthrough vs. stays clear vs. (maybe advance or ??) against dried mustard stains.
> 
> Breakthrough suprisingly took the cake.
> 
> If I had a customer totally dead set on the hardest finish ever, I would charge them for one of these >>>>https://www.amazon.com/Breathecool-...45555&sr=1-4&keywords=air+supplied+respirator
> 
> and then use the lacquers. Plus a premium price because I wouldn't really be that interested in that if it weren't for the $$.
> 
> Our dude on youtube, mr idaho, is all about those lacquers and he just uses a few window fans...and sprays on site. I wouldn't be so brazen...but he seems to be doing well with it....I don't think ventilating would be that complicated at a workshop unless you have pilot lights or a wood stove...then it's a problem.
Click to expand...


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## Mr Smith

Center_line_Painting said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think someone just shared some pictures of breakthrough vs. stays clear vs. (maybe advance or ??) against dried mustard stains.
> 
> Breakthrough suprisingly took the cake.
> 
> If I had a customer totally dead set on the hardest finish ever, I would charge them for one of these >>>>https://www.amazon.com/Breathecool-...45555&sr=1-4&keywords=air+supplied+respirator
> 
> and then use the lacquers. Plus a premium price because I wouldn't really be that interested in that if it weren't for the $$.
> 
> Our dude on youtube, mr idaho, is all about those lacquers and he just uses a few window fans...and sprays on site. I wouldn't be so brazen...but he seems to be doing well with it....I don't think ventilating would be that complicated at a workshop unless you have pilot lights or a wood stove...then it's a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen that video. Chris uses a Titan 115 HVLP and Sherwood precat (high build) lacquer.
> He obviously doesn't care about yellowing or working around toxic fumes. The money is definitely good if you can do it in 2 days.
> 
> I said to myself from the very beginning that I would not spray lacquer. Ever see the old lacquer guys at the paint store? If they haven't died off by the time they are 50 they don't look very healthy. Chris is over 50 but he just started using lacquer and I'll bet that 'Journeyman John' does most of the spraying for him.
Click to expand...


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## finishesbykevyn

bluegrassdan said:


> I recoated a set of cupboards in white Advance that were just done 8 months prior and noticed a big difference. The new white coat was a lot whiter than the older finish.


Wow, in 8 months. That's crazy. Why were you recoating so soon if you don't mind me asking..?


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## Rbriggs82

Yeah that was me, I was breakthrough vs stays clear vs general finishes and regular old breakthrough without a clear crushed the others. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## bluegrassdan

finishesbykevyn said:


> Wow, in 8 months. That's crazy. Why were you recoating so soon if you don't mind me asking..?[/QUOTE
> The customer thought the previous painter should have done another coat.


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## detailssls

I've always had great success with Advance. Two coats oil primer, two coats Advance.


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## sayn3ver

Just discovered another BM location a bit further away from me but will probably be my new go to BM store. They just brought festool in.

Anyways. They stock target coatings 6000 line of pigmented waterborne lacquer for a few local cabinet shops. They can tint it onsite with gennex. 

They said they were a bit mislead by Target in that they were told there were tint formulas for BM colors but in reality there is no machine tint formulas. (every tint is essentially a color match).

The literature looks nice (says it burns in).
They stock the undercoat and the pigmented white satin. Others need to wait for an order to be placed. 

I'm going to do a search now but figured I'd ask for input.


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## codt

*Primer under Break-Through??*

What do you guys like to use under Break-Through?


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## Tprice2193

Depends on the condition of the substrate. I generally use BIN...I have used old formula Breakthrough without primer but had to use an extra coat to get a good hide.


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## Jmayspaint

codt said:


> What do you guys like to use under Break-Through?




Preferably nothing. That’s one of the great things about it, the 250 VOC version anyway. It bonds tenaciously to darn near anything. 

If I’m doing oak cabinets and filling grain I’ll prime to facilitate that, usually with a quick drying oil primer. 
I might also prime if the existing finish was especially worn, or if it’s raw wood. BT isn’t self priming on wood. 
But as far as painting lacquered or varnished, or laminate cabinets I just use the BT straight. No need to prime. 


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## codt

I've seen some say that BT isn't hard enough for cabinets. What are your thoughts on this? I used it for the first time last week and I'm not sure how hard it gets. But after reading the tech sheet and seeing they use it on shop floors that sold me on hardness.


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## finishesbykevyn

codt said:


> I've seen some say that BT isn't hard enough for cabinets. What are your thoughts on this? I used it for the first time last week and I'm not sure how hard it gets. But after reading the tech sheet and seeing they use it on shop floors that sold me on hardness.


Ya, that's the high VOC version. I'm sure everyone agrees that the Low VOC version is not worthy. I sprayed a test door a few weeks ago and its still kind of soft and Mars with my fingernail. .Too bad as it had everything going for it..


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## 405generalcon

New to this site but not new to painting. I’ve used everything mentioned. Cabinet coat is my pick.
It takes at least two coats of stix primer to get the undercoat right. If there is any bleed through we use a spray can of BIN. Then stix over that. Have to put up to three coats of stix to do it right. When this is done and finished with at least two coats of Cabinet Coat, the marring factor seems to disappear.


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## Woodco

405generalcon said:


> New to this site but not new to painting. I’ve used everything mentioned. Cabinet coat is my pick.
> It takes at least two coats of stix primer to get the undercoat right. If there is any bleed through we use a spray can of BIN. Then stix over that. Have to put up to three coats of stix to do it right. When this is done and finished with at least two coats of Cabinet Coat, the marring factor seems to disappear.


The marring factor seems to disappear with two coats of stix? I just go with CC now, marring be damned. I havent used stix under it though. I did a huge built in using two coats of fresh start, and the marring factor was there. 

If what you're saying is true, why do you think Stix makes it go away?

Also, I heard stix doesnt sand for chit. Thats one reason I have never used it.


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## PACman

This thread is a perfect example of me getting tired of hearing myself. Or getting tired of typing the same thing over and over and over again.

Don't apply the Cabinet coat incorrectly and it won't "mar". Follow the label directions, especially the parts about tip size and mil thickness, and you won't weaken the acrylic resin so it "mars". Simple. And use Ultraplate instead.


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## cocomonkeynuts

soon


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## cocomonkeynuts

sayn3ver said:


> Just discovered another BM location a bit further away from me but will probably be my new go to BM store. They just brought festool in.
> 
> *Anyways. They stock target coatings 6000 line of pigmented waterborne lacquer for a few local cabinet shops. They can tint it onsite with gennex. *
> 
> They said they were a bit mislead by Target in that they were told there were tint formulas for BM colors but in reality there is no machine tint formulas. (every tint is essentially a color match).
> 
> The literature looks nice (says it burns in).
> They stock the undercoat and the pigmented white satin. Others need to wait for an order to be placed.
> 
> I'm going to do a search now but figured I'd ask for input.



That store can lose its BM license if its found they are using gennex to tint other brands


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## 405generalcon

PACman is exactly right!!!!


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## Woodco

PACman said:


> This thread is a perfect example of me getting tired of hearing myself. Or getting tired of typing the same thing over and over and over again.
> 
> Don't apply the Cabinet coat incorrectly and it won't "mar". Follow the label directions, especially the parts about tip size and mil thickness, and you won't weaken the acrylic resin so it "mars". Simple. And use Ultraplate instead.


Oh really? I would pay money to see someone spray cabinet coat on a vertical surface with a ".019-.021" tip like they recommend.... Puh-leeeeeeeze.

I sprayed this built in cabinet. I used a 410 tip and sprayed it as thin as oil, and it STILL had tons of sags on the first coat. I didnt thin it either. You CAN NOT put a 3 mil wet thickness on a vertical surface with this stuff, and, you sure as hell couldnt use a .019 tip. For the second coat, I had to fog it on similar to advance to get it to stay put. 

BTW, cabinet coat marred on my test board when I did a nice thick brush stroke test spot too. How do you explain that one? The drawer and door faces on this were sprayed to about a 3 mil thickness, and they still mar, so the wet mils in itself cant be the cause of marring. So, its either the primer (I used Fresh Start on this project) or the tip size, which is out, because it mars even if you dont spray it. So, we're left with primer... 

I havent tried using stix underneath it yet, but my money says it will have the same result. Why would stix prevent the topcoat marring? I asked that earlier, but never got an answer. Im gonna try it to see for myself, but I dont see how it would.


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## Mr Smith

Yep, same thing happened to me last year with Inslx cabinet coat. I used a 310 spray tip and it had runs. I'm a very experienced professional painter. I've only been successful with that product when laying doors flat to spray. Boxes have to be done by brush or roller.


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## canopainting

Ive been using Gemini 275 for refinishes or Kem Aqua


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## finishesbykevyn

Personally I don't see why which primer you use would cause marring. I did a few test doors a couple months back. I was using Advance and "the new" Breakthrough. I tred them with brush, airless and hvlp spray. Over top of both BIN and Stix with about same results. I think Stix stuck a bit better..
End results: 
Breakthrough, Pure white. on all test samples 2 months later, stills Mars like crazy.
Advance, 2 different colours. Sprayed with hvlp. results not good. Too much thinning required to push product weakeningthe finish.
Advance Airless spray with 308 FFTip. Beautiful as always. Still my favourite. 
Candy she'll hardness by the next day. 2 Months later, pretty much bomb proof.
I am however still suspect of the darker colours. I find it doesn't have the same hardness.
Maybe a bad batch? Anyhow. My 2 more cents on this ongoing subject. 
I'm also making sure to stir my paint every so often and run it through the lines if I leave overnight as there could be some separating in the lines?




Woodco said:


> Oh really? I would pay money to see someone spray cabinet coat on a vertical surface with a ".019-.021" tip like they recommend.... Puh-leeeeeeeze.
> 
> I sprayed this built in cabinet. I used a 410 tip and sprayed it as thin as oil, and it STILL had tons of sags on the first coat. I didnt thin it either. You CAN NOT put a 3 mil wet thickness on a vertical surface with this stuff, and, you sure as hell couldnt use a .019 tip. For the second coat, I had to fog it on similar to advance to get it to stay put.
> 
> BTW, cabinet coat marred on my test board when I did a nice thick brush stroke test spot too. How do you explain that one? The drawer and door faces on this were sprayed to about a 3 mil thickness, and they still mar, so the wet mils in itself cant be the cause of marring. So, its either the primer (I used Fresh Start on this project) or the tip size, which is out, because it mars even if you dont spray it. So, we're left with primer...
> 
> I havent tried using stix underneath it yet, but my money says it will have the same result. Why would stix prevent the topcoat marring? I asked that earlier, but never got an answer. Im gonna try it to see for myself, but I dont see how it would.


----------



## Zoomer

Sure there is. Bite the bullet, put on your respirator and spray Benjamin Moore Super Spec DTM alkyd enamel in low lustre (satin) or semi gloss. Both are hard as a rock and will last for many years of abuse.


----------



## canopainting

Call a comercial les paint rep.


----------



## mDUB562

Mr Smith said:


> I thought Scuff-X doesn't mar. Isn't it acrylic?
> 
> BM should come up with a hardener for Advance.


Hybrid products will become harder than any other coating. However, like all oil based finishes they cure over a lifetime. Acrylics are usually fully cured and stable after 14 days. This means the first 40 days or so hybrid or oil based coatings are prone to damage. After that they become harder then the acrylics.

If you are using hybrid products I would inform the home owner they will be tacky and soft for the first 40 days.


----------



## mDUB562

canopainting said:


> Ive been using Gemini 275 for refinishes or Kem Aqua


Have you tried Kem Aqua Plus?


----------



## Redux

Fine Paints of Europe oils and Alkyd Satin Impervo are all good.


----------



## Local paint pro

Lacquers tend to work well, cabinet makers don't seem to complain about lack of options.


----------



## Spongebob

Dude, Benjamin Moore advance, it's the best on the market next to Benjamin Moore satin impervo which most people don't use anymore.


----------



## bluegrassdan

The advance will start to yellow over a few months.


----------



## bluegrassdan

Maybe just use Aura?


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

bluegrassdan said:


> The advance will start to yellow over a few months.



People say that but I've never had a single customer complain about advance yellowing, maybe on the inside faces you will see some. At a minimum it yellows less than traditional alkyds like impervo.


regarding 'marring' with cabinetcoat I have heard its a chemical reaction with the pigments sitting close to the surface and not really 'marring' as most are thinking.


----------



## Woodco

Whatever it is, it happens REAL easy and stands out. That said, I just use it anyway, and pray I never have it bite me in the ass.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

Woodco said:


> Whatever it is, it happens REAL easy and stands out. That said, I just use it anyway, and pray I never have it bite me in the ass.



Most other acrylics I have tested also exhibit that 'feature'. Its not specific to CC. Some of these finishes are so hard enough that running your fingernail over them actually will take off microscopic bits of fingernail.


----------



## Woodco

I did a few tests myself. CC satin was by far the worst. Even new breakthrough does it. CC was also the hardest, quickest drying and looked the best.

The very first time I used it, was on a new slick brown masonite door. I scuffed it, and did 2 coats, no primer. It looked GORGEOUS. It really looked like glass. A key wouldnt scratch it an hour later. BUT, just bareley running the back of a fingernail left a very noticable track. Since it was a big flat door, I decided to scrap using it for that. I wont use it for big doors in a house, but I gave in and use it for cabinets. I will say though, that the last time I used it, it was a dark blue color, and the marring didnt show as bad as I remember. It also didnt look quite as glasslike as the first time I used it either though. 

Honestly, I dont think a customer is ever gonna call out the marring, and if they do, Im gonna just blame it on low VOC's and say pretty much everything else does it too.


----------



## finishesbykevyn

bluegrassdan said:


> Maybe just use Aura?


 I would maybe use Aura in a pinch on some laundry room cabs or something, but not in a high traffic kitchen . I just don't think it would hold up. Plus it stays soft for quite a few days after application.
I painted my old crappy desk with Aura satin finish a few years back. It is not holding up well at all..

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## diplodock

I cant speak for other companys paints, but I know what goes in Sherwin Williams. 

Yes, you can apply oil based enamel thinned with mineral spirits over acrylic, as long as the acrylic has thoroughly dried and scuff sanded. 

Here are some choices that I have used:

Sherwin Williams Proclassic Interior Acrylic Enamel - This paint brand is a high quality, durable paint with a nice finish that is definitely sturdy enough for kitchen cabinets. This is also a good paint for avoiding brush or roller marks. You will need a primer under this one.

Pittsburgh’s Manor Hall - It is very durable and definitely a good fit for doing kitchen cabinets in. You will need a primer underneath the paint.

Benjamin Moore’s Advance Waterborne Interior Alkyd Paint - This paint acts much like an oil paint in it’s durability, but is still a water based paint that is easy to clean up and work with. You will need a primer under this paint as well.

Pratt & Lambert makes high quality paints that are definitely beautiful and durable enough to do on kitchen cabinets. They have a nice color selection too. Primer would be needed under this paint.


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## Woodco

Manor hall is good for a lower end cabinet job. I dunno about a high end. I would go Durapoxy over Manor hall, if I were to go with regular acrylic. Durapoxy cures rock hard in no time at all, and it WILL stick to oil base too.


----------



## craftednorth

*Can someone explain pre-catalized*

Can some one explain precatalyzed paint? Im a carpenter whos looking to get into painting do to bad trades and scheduling conflicts and i have heard that precatalyzed stuff holds up really well? Maybe someone can explain it better here.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

craftednorth said:


> Can some one explain precatalyzed paint? Im a carpenter whos looking to get into painting do to bad trades and scheduling conflicts and i have heard that precatalyzed stuff holds up really well? Maybe someone can explain it better here.



There are a bunch of published scientific literature available if you really want to know more but in general a catalyzed lacquer uses varying mixtures of nitrocellulose,alkyd, acrylic, urea and CAB resins that then have a catalyst, typically a strong acid, added to them which speeds the drying and crosslinking process. Pre and Post catalyzed refers to at what stage the catalyst is added either from the factory or by the end user. These types of finishes dry by chemical reaction as opposed to evaporation, coalescence and oxidation found in traditional coatings. These types of finishes offer better chemical, abrasion and moisture resistance but have a shelf and pot life so they need to be used within a certain window of time once mixed. Pre catalyzed products have a shorter shelf life 6m - 1year but typically do not have any pot life or sweat time issues. Most of these finishes are designed to by applied via spray only.


----------



## Tristan Froheit

bluegrassdan said:


> So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


For kitchen cabinets you need to be using lacquer products and at the very minimum a pre-cat laquer. M.L. Campbell makes a great pre-cat that is easy to use and is self leveling and dries in 20 minutes. You must spray these products. If you are looking for something brushable, you are going to get knicks and scratches easily, especially if you are limiting yourself to a water-based product. 

If you insist on brushing it, at least use Satin Impervo from Benjamin Moore and add some penetrol into the product before application. 

Breakthrough is crap. It is just thin water-based crap they sell to homeowners and amateur finishers. If you are doing cabinetry, you need something better than that. There are also Krystals you can look into, but they are not precatalyzed. Let me know if I can help in any way.


----------



## Brushman4

cocomonkeynuts said:


> There are a bunch of published scientific literature available if you really want to know more but in general a catalyzed lacquer uses varying mixtures of nitrocellulose,alkyd, acrylic, urea and CAB resins that then have a catalyst, typically a strong acid, added to them which speeds the drying and crosslinking process. Pre and Post catalyzed refers to at what stage the catalyst is added either from the factory or by the end user. These types of finishes dry by chemical reaction as opposed to evaporation, coalescence and oxidation found in traditional coatings. These types of finishes offer better chemical, abrasion and moisture resistance but have a shelf and pot life so they need to be used within a certain window of time once mixed. Pre catalyzed products have a shorter shelf life 6m - 1year but typically do not have any pot life or sweat time issues. Most of these finishes are designed to by applied via spray only.


Ya what he said, it's kind of like mixing human DNA, with animal DNA:surprise: and hoping for the best!


----------



## Woodco

Tristan Froheit said:


> For kitchen cabinets you need to be using lacquer products and at the very minimum a pre-cat laquer. M.L. Campbell makes a great pre-cat that is easy to use and is self leveling and dries in 20 minutes. You must spray these products. If you are looking for something brushable, you are going to get knicks and scratches easily, especially if you are limiting yourself to a water-based product.
> 
> If you insist on brushing it, at least use Satin Impervo from Benjamin Moore and add some penetrol into the product before application.
> 
> Breakthrough is crap. It is just thin water-based crap they sell to homeowners and amateur finishers. If you are doing cabinetry, you need something better than that. There are also Krystals you can look into, but they are not precatalyzed. Let me know if I can help in any way.


Coming on here saying you "NEED" to use lacquer on cabinets is pretty ignorant. A lot of (if not MOST) jobs, its just not feasable. Also, a lot of us cant even get tinted lacquer if we wanted to.


----------



## RedDesertPainting

No one using Sherwood?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Woodco

RedDesertPainting said:


> No one using Sherwood?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We're talking about paint, not stains and clear coats. Unless you know of some product the rest of us dont, but I've never heard of sherwood as a paint.


----------



## Packard

bluegrassdan said:


> So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


I went to PPG to buy Breakthrough and was told that the VOC50 is not recommended for cabinets. Only the VOC250 is. 

One dealer would not order this for me, as it required that they order a case (4 gallons) and I only needed one gallon.

The other dealer did order the VOC250, and it worked fine for my cabinets. But don't let the dealer talk you into using the VOC50. PPG does not recommend it for cabinets.


----------



## canopainting

Hasn't anyone tried Pro Industrial Acrylic? I use it over BIN when I cant use Gemini pre cat, Ives used it for quite a while now as well as two other contractors here in Sacramento with no call backs. It dries fast and hard.


----------



## Optimal1

I've been looking to get into the cabinet refinishing business but the dry times always kept me away. Im always getting calls or emails and turning down the work. I finally decided to look into coating options and decided to try out kem aqua plus. My wife wanted a dark grey and they had to use a clear base to tint. I was undecided on the primer and went with pigmented shellac. I have quite a bit of experience with conventional guns and pot set ups but wanted a turbine. So i bought the Graco 9.5 pro comp. The graco edge plus 2 gun is a real winner. Easy to clean and has alot of nice options on it. As for spraying the bin and kem aqua i used the 1.3mm and not a whole lot of air. Maybe had the turbine up 1/3. I was able to lay down the primer and applied 2 or 3 coats on some of the doors. I wanted to keep the coats fairly thin since i never used kem. I had no micro foaming and it laid out clean. Hopefully this will last or my wife willkill me.lain:


----------



## Tprice2193

Good combo KA+ and shellac primer. Use it all the time. If your prep is good it will last. Try posting those pics again. I use old graco 4900 4 stage and graco Ii edge plus with 1.3 ml tip just like you did. I turn air and material down about half just like you said.


----------



## Optimal1

For some reason i can not get my photos to upload. Whats the easiest way?


----------



## Jmayspaint

I’m lucky to still be able to get the V250 Breakthrough here. We’ve been using it for about 3.5 years now, and it’s done great so far. 

The application perks are great as well. Very fast dry, fast cure, early blocking, etc.. Its the closest thing I’ve found to actual lacquer in terms of application ease with the added benefits of being able to be hand applied, tough, and extremely flexible. 

I like lacquer too, but it has its drawbacks. Mil restrictions*, yellowing, cracking. And unavailability in a range of colors. If I want white, or off white, no problem. The local Sherwin can handle that. Problem is we’ve been using a lot of mid-dark grays that it would take a hundred miles of driving to some obscure cabinet supplier for me to even get in a lacquer. 

* The finish mil restrictions can be a big deal. Say your painting a set of previously lacquered cabinets that already have a 3-4 mil DFT of clear lacquer on them. Unless you sand a lot of that off, when you add your own 3-4 mil DFT, you’ve exceeded the maximum thickness by quite a bit. 

Using vinyl sealers can help mitigate that, but still I think that’s why I’ve seen so many white lacquered sets cracked like crazy over the years. Applicators simply putting too much on to get that solid white look, and eventually that film cracks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbriggs82

Jmayspaint said:


> I’m lucky to still be able to get the V250 Breakthrough here. We’ve been using it for about 3.5 years now, and it’s done great so far.
> 
> The application perks are great as well. Very fast dry, fast cure, early blocking, etc.. Its the closest thing I’ve found to actual lacquer in terms of application ease with the added benefits of being able to be hand applied, tough, and extremely flexible.
> 
> I like lacquer too, but it has its drawbacks. Mil restrictions*, yellowing, cracking. And unavailability in a range of colors. If I want white, or off white, no problem. The local Sherwin can handle that. Problem is we’ve been using a lot of mid-dark grays that it would take a hundred miles of driving to some obscure cabinet supplier for me to even get in a lacquer.
> 
> * The finish mil restrictions can be a big deal. Say your painting a set of previously lacquered cabinets that already have a 3-4 mil DFT of clear lacquer on them. Unless you sand a lot of that off, when you add your own 3-4 mil DFT, you’ve exceeded the maximum thickness by quite a bit.
> 
> Using vinyl sealers can help mitigate that, but still I think that’s why I’ve seen so many white lacquered sets cracked like crazy over the years. Applicators simply putting too much on to get that solid white look, and eventually that film cracks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It really is a great product. I have it on my own personal cabinets, my desk, my handrails in black, and my stair treads in a dark grey. It's standing up to the abuse my two kids under ten dish out. I didn't have high hopes for the desk and stairs yet they still look like they did when they were first done. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Optimal1

Tprice2193 said:


> Good combo KA+ and shellac primer. Use it all the time. If your prep is good it will last. Try posting those pics again. I use old graco 4900 4 stage and graco Ii edge plus with 1.3 ml tip just like you did. I turn air and material down about half just like you said.




Tprice i was reading some older post about kem Aqua and came across this post from another member. What stood out to me was this sentence about adhesion to regular primers down the road. Have you ever seen and issues with the pigmented shellac primers and kem aqua? Do own any test samples or furniture with this these coatings on them to see the test of time?

Never and ever mix Kem Aqua or Kem Aqua Plus to each other.Use same type of label for undercoat and color coat.
-DO NOT try to spray with your heavy body Airless sprayer or your paint brushes.You will fail %95 of the times.
- Check your weather all times.Do not spray Higher temp(more than 100 F)
-Do not use your everyday primers for this product.it will fail after some time.
-Do not use over pressure while spraying.will cause micro bubble.
-Test panel,test panel,test pane


----------



## Tprice2193

@Optimal1 I used KA+ pigmented over BIN shellac primer for several cabinet refinishes about a year and a half ago. I haven't heard of any issues from the customer and didn't have any issues when I finished them. I had some minor micro bubbles but it it was on a final coat I put on a little thick. I have not used the clear or the undercoater. I now use General Finishes Enduro white poly. I find it to be a little easier to spray but very similar to KA+.


----------



## Center_line_Painting

@Tprice2193 Good to hear the pigmented poly is working out for you. I was just speaking to a local cabinet coatings rep about pigmented poly...he was mentioning a lot of guys are using that in shops now. Either one part of two part...but the two part has some severe health risks. 
Just curious, what are you using on darker colors?


----------



## Tprice2193

The white poly can be tinted but I have not ventured down that lane. I have used the Black Poly with good results but it will show any deficiencies in your prep. I flip houses and have some rentals. I do most of my own painting including cabinets so I can choose my own colors. So far its been white or black with the Enduro line. I have used Emerald Trim for a dark grey with decent results.


----------



## Packard

Has anyone used PPG's Breakthrough! clear as a top coat? I've been using Breakthrough! for cabinets, but I'd like a clear coat over that for added protection.


----------



## Mr Smith

Packard said:


> Has anyone used PPG's Breakthrough! clear as a top coat? I've been using Breakthrough! for cabinets, but I'd like a clear coat over that for added protection.


The clear BT is just the uncolored Breakthrough. Zero difference in durability than the opaque top-coat.

You might want to try Benjamin Moore 'Stays clear" which is a tough polyurethane.

I just talked to the reps at PPG and they recommend the 250 g/l breakthrough for cabinets. The low VOC 50 g/l is not recommended for cabs in Canada because of non protection from hand oils.


----------



## Mr Smith

*Sico WB Alkyd Cabinet Paint #125-5*

Has anyone used Sico #125 cabinet paint?

INTERIOR ALKYD EMULSION PAINT
FOR FURNITURES AND CABINETS
Water-based product, melamine finish

You can find their website at Sico.ca That's a Canadian URL.

Sico is a paint brand owned by PPG. It's not sold in their nationwide Dulux Paint store chain in Canada. They sell it at Rona and other smaller independent paint stores.

The specs look really promising. It is low VOC (<50 g/l) waterborne alkyd paint similar to Advance from Benjamin Moore. The big difference is dry time. Advance is spec'd at 18 hours between coats and Sico #125 Cab Paint is only 4 hours. Full cure is in 14 days.

TDS sheet

https://buyat.ppg.com/REP_PafPaintTools_files/Sico/SC_1255XX_CAEN.pdf


----------



## Packard

How important is the hardness of a clear top coat for cabinets? Does a softer top coat last perform poorer than a harder finish? I would believe it would be so for a countertop (and horizontal surfaces); I'm not sure it is as important for a cabinet (vertical surfaces).


----------



## Woodco

I dont see how clear breakthough over colored breakthrough would make a bit of difference, for durability. It would make it hard to touch up, and give it that clear coat look.


----------



## Damon T

To the OP did you say you don’t have access to BM paints? We have switched over to Scuff-X for the majority of our cabinets and trim although we still use advance at times. I think it AdVance actually rolls better for doing the boxes but we can get good results with the ScuffX. Now for some real controversy we started caulking the 
front panels on cabinet doors after years of not. It just looks better generally. Ok go!


----------



## EveryDay

Damon T said:


> To the OP did you say you don’t have access to BM paints? We have switched over to Scuff-X for the majority of our cabinets and trim although we still use advance at times. I think it AdVance actually rolls better for doing the boxes but we can get good results with the ScuffX. *Now for some real controversy we started caulking the
> front panels on cabinet doors after years of not. It just looks better generally. Ok go!*


Agreed. 
Chances of front panels on cabinet doors moving again, (especially if very high quality caulk used) are very minimal.
But chances of them looking terrible and cheap without caulking are almost 100%.
I take the chance and caulk every time, unless the doors are old or of such poor quality and are rattling badly. 
Assuming they are in average dry/humidity environment.


----------



## AIDANLYNN

bluegrassdan said:


> So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


polyurethane spraying machine aidan


----------



## PNW Painter

You BM store can also order Lenmar products. They have some high performance water based products designed for cabinets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EveryDay

OK, what about using automotive paints to do kitchen cabinets. 
Or do they stink to high heaven even water based types?


----------



## jennifertemple

Optimal1 said:


> For some reason i can not get my photos to upload. Whats the easiest way?



I was having the same issue! Try uploading one at a time. I did that for a few and then the issue about "security tokens" just went away. I can upload at will now. If that fails, contact Cricket.


----------



## Woodco

EveryDay said:


> OK, what about using automotive paints to do kitchen cabinets.
> Or do they stink to high heaven even water based types?


Bad idea. Too thin, too brittle. and yes, very toxic.


----------



## EveryDay

Optimal1 said:


> For some reason i can not get my photos to upload. Whats the easiest way?


You need to have 20 posts posted in order to have that option available to you.
Right now you have 16 posts.
Use the: "*Manage Attachments*" box below the box/window where you type your post.


----------



## EveryDay

Woodco said:


> Bad idea. Too thin, too brittle. and yes, very toxic.


But on the other hand we don't need better longer lasting paints for cabinets.
We need job securities, lol.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

EveryDay said:


> But on the other hand we don't need better longer lasting paints for cabinets.
> We need job securities, lol.


Yikes


----------



## EveryDay

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yikes


What? lol, it's good for you too. You sell more paint.:smile:


----------



## Zoomer

EveryDay said:


> Damon T said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the OP did you say you don’t have access to BM paints? We have switched over to Scuff-X for the majority of our cabinets and trim although we still use advance at times. I think it AdVance actually rolls better for doing the boxes but we can get good results with the ScuffX. *Now for some real controversy we started caulking the
> front panels on cabinet doors after years of not. It just looks better generally. Ok go!*
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> Chances of front panels on cabinet doors moving again, (especially if very high quality caulk used) are very minimal.
> But chances of them looking terrible and cheap without caulking are almost 100%.
> I take the chance and caulk every time, unless the doors are old or of such poor quality and are rattling badly.
> Assuming they are in average dry/humidity environment.
Click to expand...

 Agreed caulking looks better.


----------



## Rbriggs82

No they should look las close to factory as possible and they don't fill them.

They should look like this...









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Smith

Rbriggs82 said:


> No they should look las close to factory as possible and they don't fill them.
> 
> They should look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Some old cabinets look worse than others. I've caulked some old Blond Oak Cab doors that had very large gaps compared to your example. Some of the newer doors have been mitered much better so I don't always caulk them.


----------



## Zoomer

We are partial to a caulked door. If you're using a high grade caulk that you know will flex with the movement of the door rarely will you have anything that will crack out.


----------



## Optimal1

Rbriggs82 said:


> No they should look las close to factory as possible and they don't fill them.
> 
> They should look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk




Looks good! What products did you use for your refinish job?


----------



## Rbriggs82

Optimal1 said:


> Looks good! What products did you use for your refinish job?


Primed with BIN and painted with Breakthrough satin. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Optimal1

Rbriggs82 said:


> Optimal1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good! What products did you use for your refinish job?
> 
> 
> 
> Primed with BIN and painted with Breakthrough satin.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Nice ..I'm about to paint a set with break through. What spray equipment and tip or needle size did you use? 

Did you spray your doors flat or vertical.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Optimal1 said:


> Nice ..I'm about to paint a set with break through. What spray equipment and tip or needle size did you use?
> 
> Did you spray your doors flat or vertical.


I used the high VOC version sprayed flat with a 308 tip through a Graco Profinish II. 

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## Jmayspaint

I try not to caulk doors. I agree with Brigs that that a clean, uniform gap between the panels and the styles/rails looks just fine. That’s how they would come from a cabinet shop. 

That said, it’s not always possible to get a clean, uniform gap. Especially if there’s any grain reduction involved, like with oak cabinets. Excessive bridging of the paint film between the panels and styles looks like crap. So in those cases I do caulk them. 

It depends a lot on how the doors are put together,what kind of wood they’re made from, and the climate of the area, but in general door panels are made to float. They move around during climatic/humidity changes. If you live in an area where heating and cooling the interior space fluctuate markedly throughout the year, floating panels Will move. Caulked or not. 

I’ve had three call backs over cracks where the panels meet the frames out of a few dozen cabinet jobs I’ve done in the past 4 or 5 years. One with uncaulked panels, and two with caulked panels. It’s not a big deal to fix these issues, but it does seem to be harder to fix if the panels were caulked initially. 

Here’s a couple pics from uncaulked panels that moved around after a seasonal change 










To the OP, I’ve found the 250 VOC Breakthrough to be the best product for cabinets that I’ve tried. Fixing the defects created on the sets pictured was easy to do with the BT. 


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## Rbriggs82

250voc version Breakthrough is really hard to beat. My house is like a giant BT testing ground. My office desk, stair treads, handrails, and kitchen cabinets are all breakthrough. Me and my kids are walking on, cooking around it, and dragging stuff across it everyday and the paint takes the abuse like a champ. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> 250voc version Breakthrough is really hard to beat. My house is like a giant BT testing ground. My office desk, stair treads, handrails, and kitchen cabinets are all breakthrough. Me and my kids are walking on, cooking around it, and dragging stuff across it everyday and the paint takes the abuse like a champ.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


So sad I can't get it in my area. Advance is the runner up, however this new Scuffx is really impressing me lately..just sprayed a fireplace and some spindles with it. Very impressed with quick blocking time and hardness.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## Packard

I build my own kitchen cabinets in a home workshop. I've been using unfinished plywood for the boxes and applying a waterborn finish to the interior and Breakthrough! 250VOC. to the exterior.

For about $8.00 extra per cabinet I can use pre-finished plywood from Columbia Wood products. This from their website:

_UV Wood™ – Simple yet beautiful hardwood plywood with a scratch-resistant clear topcoat. A great choice for basic cabinetry and box building. Meets Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturing Association (KCMA) requirements for stain resistance of typical household products like mustard and ketchup._
*
Question: Would you bother to paint box interiors if you could get the material pre-finished?*

The prefinished also reduces my build time. Mine is not a production shop and I usually make 4 to 10 cabinets as a "production" run, at which time I run out of room and I have to deliver the cabinets before proceeding.


----------



## Woodco

Packard said:


> I build my own kitchen cabinets in a home workshop. I've been using unfinished plywood for the boxes and applying a waterborn finish to the interior and Breakthrough! 250VOC. to the exterior.
> 
> For about $8.00 extra per cabinet I can use pre-finished plywood from Columbia Wood products. This from their website:
> 
> _UV Wood™ – Simple yet beautiful hardwood plywood with a scratch-resistant clear topcoat. A great choice for basic cabinetry and box building. Meets Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturing Association (KCMA) requirements for stain resistance of typical household products like mustard and ketchup._
> *
> Question: Would you bother to paint box interiors if you could get the material pre-finished?*
> 
> The prefinished also reduces my build time. Mine is not a production shop and I usually make 4 to 10 cabinets as a "production" run, at which time I run out of room and I have to deliver the cabinets before proceeding.


 I've always used the clear prefinished stuff for building cabinets, and 9 out of 10 times I've painted them, they had the same stuff inside. 
Its kind of silly NOT to use it, unless its an open area, of course.


----------



## Packard

Woodco said:


> I've always used the clear prefinished stuff for building cabinets, and 9 out of 10 times I've painted them, they had the same stuff inside.
> Its kind of silly NOT to use it, unless its an open area, of course.


Thanks. 

Any adhesion problems painting over the finish (for the exteriors)?


----------



## Woodco

Packard said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Any adhesion problems painting over the finish (for the exteriors)?


Why would you be painting over the prefinished stuff? If you're talking about an exposed side piece, It should have an unfinished skin on it. YOu should only paint the frame, and any exposed sides.

Its been a while since I've built any cabinets, but I believe the prefinish is only on one side of the plywood anyway. For cabinets with two sides of shelves, there would be two plywood pieces in the middle to hold the shelves.


----------



## Jmayspaint

In my father in law’s cabinet shop they use plywood that’s pre finished on both sides for shelving, drawer boxes, and any interior only panels in the boxes. For the finished ends, they use plywood finished on one side only, the unfinished side facing outward. 

The reason for this is its very difficult to get anything to stick to the pre finished material. They use glued on plywood stained to match the rest of the boxes to finish the exposed ends. Wood glue won’t stick to pre finished plywood.* 

That said, I have painted pre finished plywood on cabinets with sanding prep and using a bonding primer, or more commonly Breakthrough. Doesn’t seem to be a problem. 

*this brings up another issue, irrelevant to this thread, with building boxes out of pre finished material. You can’t glue the boxes together without dadoing. Some cabinet makers I know still use unfinished plywood so that they can easily glue the boxes together ensuring a strong box. It’s a lot of work to manually finishes the inside of boxes, but apparently some cabinet makers think it worth the trade off to have security glued boxes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Packard

Woodco said:


> Why would you be painting over the prefinished stuff? If you're talking about an exposed side piece, It should have an unfinished skin on it. YOu should only paint the frame, and any exposed sides.
> 
> Its been a while since I've built any cabinets, but I believe the prefinish is only on one side of the plywood anyway. For cabinets with two sides of shelves, there would be two plywood pieces in the middle to hold the shelves.


The sides and tops I leave alone. I like to paint the bottoms to match the doors and faceframes. I think it looks more "finished". 

It is available finished on one or two sides. I will call the lumber yard and see which style they carry. I would think finished one side would invite warping.


----------



## Packard

I did a search and it directed me back to this thread. 

I recently started spraying cabinets with a HVLP sprayer. I need a clear finish for cabinet drawers. The enclosed space makes odors linger for a long time. So I am looking for something that sprays easily and does not smell bad (or the smell goes away quickly). 

Quick drying would also be an advantage. I don't think durability is as much of a factor here as it would be for cabinet exteriors.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Packard


----------



## Jmayspaint

Breakthrough clear if you can get it. I’ve used it on a few cabinet refinish jobs and really liked it. It does stink during application, but with the ultra fast dry and 7 day full cure time, the odor seems to dissipate quickly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Woodco

Packard said:


> The sides and tops I leave alone. I like to paint the bottoms to match the doors and faceframes. I think it looks more "finished".
> 
> It is available finished on one or two sides. I will call the lumber yard and see which style they carry. I would think finished one side would invite warping.


Warping? Why would you think that?

As far as clears, waterborne poly works great. It dries as quick as a latex paint. I imagine breakthrough would dry a little quicker, though.


----------



## Packard

Jmayspaint said:


> In my father in law’s cabinet shop they use plywood that’s pre finished on both sides for shelving, drawer boxes, and any interior only panels in the boxes. For the finished ends, they use plywood finished on one side only, the unfinished side facing outward.
> 
> The reason for this is its very difficult to get anything to stick to the pre finished material. They use glued on plywood stained to match the rest of the boxes to finish the exposed ends. Wood glue won’t stick to pre finished plywood.*
> 
> That said, I have painted pre finished plywood on cabinets with sanding prep and using a bonding primer, or more commonly Breakthrough. Doesn’t seem to be a problem.
> 
> *this brings up another issue, irrelevant to this thread, with building boxes out of pre finished material. You can’t glue the boxes together without dadoing. Some cabinet makers I know still use unfinished plywood so that they can easily glue the boxes together ensuring a strong box. It’s a lot of work to manually finishes the inside of boxes, but apparently some cabinet makers think it worth the trade off to have security glued boxes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dadoes are not particularly strong in of themselves, especially when testing racking strength. I prefer dowels. I place them every 3" or so. The dowels provide good racking strength and good pull apart strength. Confirmat screws are also good, but then I have a difficult time locating the panels for assembly. The dowels solve that issue. 

Dadoes are good for carrying a load if it is used on both ends of the shelf, but offer little racking strength (not an issue on cabinets which use the wall as a structural member). It is a problem with free-standing cabinets.


----------



## Redux

Packard said:


> Dadoes are not particularly strong in of themselves, especially when testing racking strength. I prefer dowels. I place them every 3" or so. The dowels provide good racking strength and good pull apart strength. Confirmat screws are also good, but then I have a difficult time locating the panels for assembly. The dowels solve that issue.
> 
> Dadoes are good for carrying a load if it is used on both ends of the shelf, but offer little racking strength (not an issue on cabinets which use the wall as a structural member). It is a problem with free-standing cabinets.


If you should ever invest in a sliding table saw for processing sheet goods, you’ll never want to use a dowel ever again. Everything is self-squaring when performing dadoes and rebates on a slider. You can eliminate measuring with lightning fast assembly, and hang up your squares too. I’ve always glued and stapled all dado and rebate assemblies on casework. I don’t see any issues with racking strength.

And yes, I would go with pre-finished. I’ve been out of the cabinet business for a few years now, but if my memory serves me correctly, I used Nova pre-finished for casework.


----------



## Packard

Woodco said:


> Warping? Why would you think that?


If you finish one side of a piece of wood and not the other, then the unfinished side will absorb moisture at a greater rate than the finished side. So seasonal movement of the wood due to moisture content can cause the wood to warp.


----------



## Woodco

Packard said:


> If you finish one side of a piece of wood and not the other, then the unfinished side will absorb moisture at a greater rate than the finished side. So seasonal movement of the wood due to moisture content can cause the wood to warp.


Plywood doesnt warp like that. I highly doubt solid boards would either. Open up your dresser, or any cabinet with all drawers. I'll bet its raw wood on the inside.


----------



## Redux

Woodco said:


> Plywood doesnt warp like that. I highly doubt solid boards would either. Open up your dresser, or any cabinet with all drawers. I'll bet its raw wood on the inside.


Was on a project a few weeks ago, not having done the painting, just the wood finishing. There were sixteen x 7 ft high, 3/4” plywood & edge-banded mirrored cabinet doors to be painted by others. I suggested to the builder to at least have his painters prime the side where the mirror glass was going to be installed so they don’t bow...he didn’t listen, just having his painters do the edges and backs. 

Ever been to a fun-house when you were a kid, looking at your reflection in the mirrors? Yeah, they bowed that badly. I’m surprised the glass didn’t snap. Plywood warps if only one side is finished. 

Someone’s now eating the cost for replacing 16 plywood doors and mirror glass.


----------



## sayn3ver

Wood and plywood most certainly will warp and bow like typical solid lumber. It's definitely more resistant than solid lumber because of the stack of opposing grains but will over time. 

Both solid 3/4" tongue and groove hardwood and the newer engineered hardwood floors will cup or crown depending on the humidity differential. 

That's when you have it more moisture on one side of the product vs the other. 

Most manufacturered stock cabinets have veneer on both sides. Typically only the ends are exposed.

Exposed plywood on stick frame homes, especially the junk today, will bow and check if the new construction isn't made rain tight in short order. 

That's why many have gone with advantec vs low grade osb or plywood. 








Alchemy Redux said:


> Woodco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plywood doesnt warp like that. I highly doubt solid boards would either. Open up your dresser, or any cabinet with all drawers. I'll bet its raw wood on the inside.
> 
> 
> 
> Was on a project a few weeks ago, not having done the painting, just the wood finishing. There were sixteen x 7 ft high, 3/4” plywood & edge-banded mirrored cabinet doors to be painted by others. I suggested to the builder to at least have his painters prime the side where the mirror glass was going to be installed so they don’t bow...he didn’t listen, just having his painters do the edges and backs.
> 
> Ever been to a fun-house when you were a kid, looking at your reflection in the mirrors? Yeah, they bowed that badly. I’m surprised the glass didn’t snap. Plywood warps if only one side is finished.
> 
> Someone’s now eating the cost for replacing 16 plywood doors and mirror glass.
Click to expand...


----------



## Redux

sayn3ver said:


> Wood and plywood most certainly will warp and bow like typical solid lumber. It's definitely more resistant than solid lumber because of the stack of opposing grains but will over time.
> 
> Both solid 3/4" tongue and groove hardwood and the newer engineered hardwood floors will cup or crown depending on the humidity differential.
> 
> That's when you have it more moisture on one side of the product vs the other.
> 
> Most manufacturered stock cabinets have veneer on both sides. Typically only the ends are exposed.
> 
> Exposed plywood on stick frame homes, especially the junk today, will bow and check if the new construction isn't made rain tight in short order.
> 
> That's why many have gone with advantec vs low grade osb or plywood.


Having been finishing millwork/cabinetry for upwards 40 years, you learn how to read the wood, knowing exactly what each piece will do when applying a water based product, sometimes having to wet down opposing sides of cabinet doors and drawer fronts with distilled water to prevent bowing when only being able to do one side before flipping. I haven’t encountered a bowed or twisted cabinet door that I couldn’t flatten out by some means, larger stave core passage and entry doors being a different story.

Also having finished a lot of engineered flooring/paneling, I can’t say I’ve ever experienced cupping or crowning with engineered surfaces on any of my projects, our installers doing a very thorough job both gluing and blind fastening. What I do see quite often are the lamellae splitting due to differential movement between the Baltic birch ply backing and the lamellae. We mostly use 11 ply backing which is very stable. 

I took delivery of 3000 lf of 3/4 solid genuine mahogany t&g material a few weeks ago, the material being delivered by “others” on a open truck. The material was straight as a arrow before being shipped. Just the airflow on a humid day on the back of a truck for a 40 mile trip caused the boards to crook upwards an inch. I guess the mill didn’t know that you deliver framing lumber on an open truck, not FEQ mahogany..couldn’t fix that mess, the installers had a tough time with it..


----------



## Mace

Guys if you want the real deal with cabinet paints...im talking great products for cabinet paints then you will not get them fromyour box stores, PPG , BM or even a lot of SW stores. SW has KA which is alright but on the lower end of specialty WB products.
SW bought out Sayerlack and Sayerlack is good but hard to get in most SW stores.

But, Sayerlack, Gemini,Campbell,Renner, CIC,Target and many more all blow away what you typically find in a SW, PPG, BM etc. stores. The best products are usually European companies. How about Milesi? That stuff is GREAT!! Its also the best selling WB specialty paint in Europe.

There is a little bit of a learning curve when using these products. If you are coming from a solvent background it will be a bit harder but once you transition....you will never go back to solvents. The products I mentioned look and feel just like a solvent and some cases are even more durable.

Advance, Breakthrough, Emerald Urethane etc... have their place but NOT on kitchen cabinets. 

Check out Eric Reason on Youtube. He does a great job of WB product reviews.

Good luck


----------



## finishesbykevyn

Mace said:


> Guys if you want the real deal with cabinet paints...im talking great products for cabinet paints then you will not get them fromyour box stores, PPG , BM or even a lot of SW stores. SW has KA which is alright but on the lower end of specialty WB products.
> SW bought out Sayerlack and Sayerlack is good but hard to get in most SW stores.
> 
> But, Sayerlack, Gemini,Campbell,Renner, CIC,Target and many more all blow away what you typically find in a SW, PPG, BM etc. stores. The best products are usually European companies. How about Milesi? That stuff is GREAT!! Its also the best selling WB specialty paint in Europe.
> 
> There is a little bit of a learning curve when using these products. If you are coming from a solvent background it wrill be a bit harder but once you transition....you will never go back to solvents. The products I mentioned look and feel just like a solvent and some cases are even more durable.
> 
> Advance, Breakthrough, Emerald Urethane etc... have their place but NOT on kitchen cabinets.
> 
> Check out Eric Reason on Youtube. He does a great job of WB product reviews.
> 
> Good luck


Technically you may be right, however I've been using Advance for a few years now with fantastic results. Even the toughest of pigmented products will start showing some wear and tear after a year. I've seen it on cabinets straight from the factory. The laquers etc. will start chipping around the sink area etc. 
The awesome think about Advance is for touch-up work. It's blends in really nice and can be brush and rolled with ease. I'm sticking with it for now..


----------



## Mace

Eric Reason did a durability test with Advance if your interested.


----------



## Lightningboy65

There are good cabinet paints out there. I think the problem begins when customers (and even some painters) expect non-factory finishes to equal the durability of a quality baked on factory finish. And that just doesn't happen.


----------



## Mr Smith

Mace said:


> Eric Reason did a durability test with Advance if your interested.


Yeah i saw that.

I was shocked that Advance was the worst in terms of durability. 

I showed a handyman a sample door that I shot with Advance which had cured a few years, and he did the fingernail test and scratched the sh*t out of it. The handyman always clear-coats his cabinet jobs with with poly.

Next cabinet Job I'm going to try Sayerlack.


----------



## Woodco

Mr Smith said:


> Yeah i saw that.
> 
> I was shocked that Advance was the worst in terms of durability.
> 
> I showed a handyman a sample door that I shot with Advance which had cured a few years, and he did the fingernail test and scratched the sh*t out of it. The handyman always clear-coats his cabinet jobs with with poly.
> 
> Next cabinet Job I'm going to try Sayerlack.


Wow....


----------



## Woodco

Mace said:


> Guys if you want the real deal with cabinet paints...im talking great products for cabinet paints then you will not get them fromyour box stores, PPG , BM or even a lot of SW stores. SW has KA which is alright but on the lower end of specialty WB products.
> SW bought out Sayerlack and Sayerlack is good but hard to get in most SW stores.
> 
> But, Sayerlack, Gemini,Campbell,Renner, CIC,Target and many more all blow away what you typically find in a SW, PPG, BM etc. stores. The best products are usually European companies. How about Milesi? That stuff is GREAT!! Its also the best selling WB specialty paint in Europe.
> 
> There is a little bit of a learning curve when using these products. If you are coming from a solvent background it will be a bit harder but once you transition....you will never go back to solvents. The products I mentioned look and feel just like a solvent and some cases are even more durable.
> 
> Advance, Breakthrough, Emerald Urethane etc... have their place but NOT on kitchen cabinets.
> 
> Check out Eric Reason on Youtube. He does a great job of WB product reviews.
> 
> Good luck


Do those products spray well with an airless?


----------



## Redux

Lightningboy65 said:


> There are good cabinet paints out there. I think the problem begins when customers (and even some painters) expect non-factory finishes to equal the durability of a quality baked on factory finish. And that just doesn't happen.


Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? I’m actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself. 

Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and I’d almost bet that air dried 2K’s are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong. 

A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better. 

Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isn’t quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. I’ve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...


----------



## finishesbykevyn

Mace said:


> Eric Reason did a durability test with Advance if your interested.


Ya I just watched that. Disheartening. However, he used a black that had only cured for 30 days. Black and deep bases are bad in all paints. He also used laquer thinner and Toluene as a chemical resistance test?! No s#$t thats gonna rub the paint off. Lol


----------



## Lightningboy65

Alchemy Redux said:


> Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? I’m actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself.
> 
> Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and I’d almost bet that air dried 2K’s are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong.
> 
> A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better.
> 
> Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isn’t quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. I’ve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...


I'm not sure of the chemistry myself. And while I've finished my fair share of cabinets, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a cabinet specialist. One thing I do know that baking would assure maximum curing between coats, something that creates a tougher finish. And many of the finishes used in factory finished cabinets contain components that require heat to activate. From what I gather, the equipment used for these finishes run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, something the average small cabinet shop just can't afford.

I've seen some beautiful, durable factory finishes from the better cabinet makers such as Mouser and others. I imagine these are more than an off gun finish. Probably some hand rubbing involved, I'm sure. And I have seen cabinets come out of local shops that look beautiful, and have done some myself that looked pretty darn good. I just don't think they hold up as well as a factory baked on finish. They hold up well, but not as well as a quality factory finish.


----------



## Redux

Lightningboy65 said:


> I'm not sure of the chemistry myself. And while I've finished my fair share of cabinets, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a cabinet specialist. One thing I do know that baking would assure maximum curing between coats, something that creates a tougher finish. And many of the finishes used in factory finished cabinets contain components that require heat to activate. From what I gather, the equipment used for these finishes run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, something the average small cabinet shop just can't afford.
> 
> I've seen some beautiful, durable factory finishes from the better cabinet makers such as Mouser and others. I imagine these are more than an off gun finish. Probably some hand rubbing involved, I'm sure. And I have seen cabinets come out of local shops that look beautiful, and have done some myself that looked pretty darn good. I just don't think they hold up as well as a factory baked on finish. They hold up well, but not as well as a quality factory finish.


Funny you should mention Mouser. Mouser’s are what I have in my kitchen. They were purchased in 1999. By 2007 the clear finishes were shot, especially around the pulls where the clear coats turned to gummy mush from finger print oils. I could literally rub the clear coats off down to bare wood with the palm of my hand around the pulls. I was pretty conscientious about cleaning the oils off too. The finishes also chipped pretty badly. I ended up refinishing them in 2008, prepping and priming with 024 and doing 3 coats of C235 Alkyd Satin Impervo Copley Gray, back painting the glass as well. 11 years later the finishes still look flawless with the same type of wear and tear, as well as care..nothing different. Go figure that Satin Impervo held up better than the factory finishes...and yes, the factory clear finishes appeared to be buffed up and polished after the gun with -zero-texture.


----------



## Lightningboy65

Alchemy Redux said:


> Funny you should mention Mouser. Mouser’s are what I have in my kitchen. They were purchased in 1999. By 2007 the clear finishes were shot, especially around the pulls where the clear coats turned to gummy mush from finger print oils. I could literally rub the clear coats off down to bare wood with the palm of my hand around the pulls. I was pretty conscientious about cleaning the oils off too. The finishes also chipped pretty badly. I ended up refinishing them in 2008, prepping and priming with 024 and doing 3 coats of C235 Alkyd Satin Impervo Copley Gray, back painting the glass as well. 11 years later the finishes still look flawless with the same type of wear and tear, as well as care..nothing different. Go figure that Satin Impervo held up better than the factory finishes...and yes, the factory clear finishes appeared to be buffed up and polished after the gun with -zero-texture.


I'm surprised to hear that. I have Mouser vanities, and they've held up great. And I have worked in many homes with their cabinets and have never heard any complaints on their finish. But vanities don't get the abuse a kitchen cabinet endures. I'm not surprised to hear SI worked well. Just imagine if it were the SI of years gone by. Boy I sure do miss the old SI. That was my go to for many years, and never let me down.

As anything, the person applying the finish has a lot to do with the quality. I have no doubt a finish applied by yourself would be among the best.


----------



## Redux

Lightningboy65 said:


> I'm surprised to hear that. I have Mouser vanities, and they've held up great. And I have worked in many homes with their cabinets and have never heard any complaints on their finish. But vanities don't get the abuse a kitchen cabinet endures. I'm not surprised to hear SI worked well. Just imagine if it were the SI of years gone by. Boy I sure do miss the old SI. That was my go to for many years, and never let me down.
> 
> As anything, the person applying the finish has a lot to do with the quality. I have no doubt a finish applied by yourself would be among the best.


I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasn’t all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..I’m also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service. 

And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryear’s, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well. 

I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.


----------



## PPD

Alchemy Redux said:


> I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasn’t all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..I’m also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryear’s, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.



Yep I’m re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....

If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?


----------



## finishesbykevyn

I still use Advance. Fantastic product. Theoretically it is an oil paint. But it cleans up with water. Available in any colour. Can be sprayed or brushed.

QUOTE=PPD;1671029]


Alchemy Redux said:


> I was equally as surprised. Their warranty specifically excluded finish failure on touch area surfaces. I guess the finish wasn’t all that resistant to my greazy finger tips..I’m also certain that the finish technology has vastly improved over the past 20 years since the cabinets were first placed into service.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I do miss the days of the old Satin Impervo. Alkyd SI, although not the same as yesteryear’s, was and still is my go-to finish for interior trim, and used on hand painted cabinetry whenever a brushed finish is specified, sometimes using Hollandlac as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to use a water based paint for interior trim as long as oil is still available.



Yep I’m re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....

If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Redux

PPD said:


> Yep I’m re-activating an old thread cuz I got a question (surprise surprise right? )....
> 
> If u had to repaint ur cabinets today, what would you choose for product?


For non-atomized paint grade finishes on cabinets and trim I prefer alkyd c235 Satin Impervo. Also used it a lot for level 5 drywall finishes. I have a lot of painted millwork in my home & everything finished with SI in 2008 looks like it was done yesterday and will probably outlive me. If I had to refinish everything today I’d stick with the SI. 

The last couple of homes I did, other painters were hired for the paint grade finishes, all using Advance. IMO, the Advance in comparison to solvent borne alkyds is lacking in depth & reflectivity, not quite measuring up.


----------



## Zoomer

Initially Scuff X may apply and look good.
Not a single one of us can say what it will look like in a couple of years. 
The product is so new that it hasn't been put to the test to determine long term success on cabinetry.


----------



## Woodco

Zoomer said:


> Initially Scuff X may apply and look good.
> Not a single one of us can say what it will look like in a couple of years.
> The product is so new that it hasn't been put to the test to determine long term success on cabinetry.


I painted a coffee table and tv station with scuff X stock black, primed with stix. This was a few months ago. stuff still sticks to it, and have a couple scratches on the coffee table down to primer. There is one spot on the coffee table that went down to original substrate, from putting hot coffee mugs on it. The heat softened the paint and primer up.


----------



## jacob33

Woodco said:


> I painted a coffee table and tv station with scuff X stock black, primed with stix. This was a few months ago. stuff still sticks to it, and have a couple scratches on the coffee table down to primer. There is one spot on the coffee table that went down to original substrate, from putting hot coffee mugs on it. The heat softened the paint and primer up.







Thats disappointing to hear. I just did two jobs where I used it on trim and doors and have to say I was impressed with it and how if feels after it dried. It was a white color so it probably wont have the problems of not curing but I was hopeful I finally found a waterbased product instead of oil. I still love satin impervo and proclassic oil but odor and production are a problem with them.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

jacob33 said:


> Thats disappointing to hear. I just did two jobs where I used it on trim and doors and have to say I was impressed with it and how if feels after it dried. It was a white color so it probably wont have the problems of not curing but I was hopeful I finally found a waterbased product instead of oil. I still love satin impervo and proclassic oil but* odor and production are a problem with them.*



cabinetcoat + 1wb.200 undercoat


----------



## finishesbykevyn

cocomonkeynuts said:


> cabinetcoat + 1wb.200 undercoat


Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?


----------



## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?


It's Lennar, never used it but it looks like it's mainly for new stock. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

finishesbykevyn said:


> Whats this 200 undercoat you speak of.? Does it actually have a name?



http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/prod...ralaq-wb-waterborne-white-acrylic-undercoater


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

Rbriggs82 said:


> It's Lennar, never used it but it looks like it's mainly for new stock.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk



new stock, mdf,pre-primed steel,fiberglass doors trim etc. Not an bonding primer. Spray only.


Works really great on preprimed mdf. cheap too ~$20/gal


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## cocomonkeynuts

Redux said:


> Does baking improve the cross linking and performance characteristics of a 2K finish or does it just speed up the air drying? I’m actually just curious, not knowing the answer myself.
> 
> Been putting out 2K finishes for about 13 years now and I’d almost bet that air dried 2K’s are no less durable than if baked, although I could be wrong.
> 
> A few out by me are running automated lines with UV cured finishes, no doubt better.
> 
> Another expectation is that an off-the-gun finish will look as good as a finish coming out of a quality millwork shop. Although some off-the-gun finishes look pretty good at best, IMO, an off-the-gun finish isn’t quite done. Many painters and shop finishers including myself often skip the the post-spray hand work due to budget or time constraints, the post-spray hand work bringing the finishes up to entirely different level...more of a furniture or even musical instrument grade quality. I’ve never been totally satisfied with any of my off-the-gun finishes, especially since switching to WB for the most part...



I posted a article a while back regarding different 2K urethane catalysts. If I recall some catalyst were more sensitive to temperature when curing.


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## DaLee Salinas

Rbriggs82 said:


> No they should look las close to factory as possible and they don't fill them.
> 
> They should look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Wish BT did you uses the 250 or the low VOC 50? And how do you like the BT for cabinets, I’m thinking about trying out the paint for my sons cabinets?


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## Rbriggs82

DaLee Salinas said:


> Wish BT did you uses the 250 or the low VOC 50? And how do you like the BT for cabinets, I’m thinking about trying out the paint for my sons cabinets?


V50 is the high voc version and v51 is the lower. V50 which I use is rated for cabinets and v51 is not.


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## Masterwork

How do you keep the paint from bridging the gap?


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## Scum138

Rbriggs82 said:


> V50 is the high voc version and v51 is the lower. V50 which I use is rated for cabinets and v51 is not.


I have seen quite a few posts from yourself and repaint Florida on the BT and have been using it over the last few weeks. I gotta say so far it’s a love/hate, at least while I’m figuring it out. I’m starting to come to the conclusion that it’s almost better to use with no primer. Im doing a kitchen with it now , and followed repaints suggestion of seal grip under white. This particular kitchen was black lower white upper so really a perfect test for that. I did my initial testing in the shop and all was good. 
black no primer looked and felt like glass. Hard as hell, beautiful (and I hate black there’s always something) but the white set, primer dried overnight, excellent adhesion but “primer” touch/feel... shot my first coat of white BT and checked on it about 8 hrs later and it was really soft. Felt completely different than the black. Let dry overnight, shot 2nd, same thing still latex feeling. Is this just a different curing process cuz of the primer. Waiting to see how it feels over the next day or two before I panic lol.. I’ll be posting much more but that’s my 2 cents for now


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## Rbriggs82

Scum138 said:


> I have seen quite a few posts from yourself and repaint Florida on the BT and have been using it over the last few weeks. I gotta say so far it’s a love/hate, at least while I’m figuring it out. I’m starting to come to the conclusion that it’s almost better to use with no primer. Im doing a kitchen with it now , and followed repaints suggestion of seal grip under white. This particular kitchen was black lower white upper so really a perfect test for that. I did my initial testing in the shop and all was good.
> black no primer looked and felt like glass. Hard as hell, beautiful (and I hate black there’s always something) but the white set, primer dried overnight, excellent adhesion but “primer” touch/feel... shot my first coat of white BT and checked on it about 8 hrs later and it was really soft. Felt completely different than the black. Let dry overnight, shot 2nd, same thing still latex feeling. Is this just a different curing process cuz of the primer. Waiting to see how it feels over the next day or two before I panic lol.. I’ll be posting much more but that’s my 2 cents for now


Breakthrough is completely fine on its own. It sticks to damn near everything so adhesion isn't an issue. The only reason I prime with it is to prevent bleeding issues, Breakthrough likes to pull out stains for some reason. I've never primed with seal grip mostly I'm using shellac and over shellac it doesn't feel any different than without it. 

I too have a love hate with it but once you get through the learning curve it's not too bad to work with. If spraying airless use a 308 tip, that's the tip I've found works best with it.


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## Scum138

Rbriggs82 said:


> Breakthrough is completely fine on its own. It sticks to damn near everything so adhesion isn't an issue. The only reason I prime with it is to prevent bleeding issues, Breakthrough likes to pull out stains for some reason. I've never primed with seal grip mostly I'm using shellac and over shellac it doesn't feel any different than without it.
> 
> I too have a love hate with it but once you get through the learning curve it's not too bad to work with. If spraying airless use a 308 tip, that's the tip I've found works best with it.


I see some real time saving potential with the product for sure. I’m so used to priming and assessing/fixing imperfections, priming again, sanding again etc...it would be nice to fix any obvious imperfections while doing my initial scuff sand,(I find a combination of medium surf prep pads with the 220-320 abrasive films are just enough to powder up the existing finish but not burn thru preventing a possible stain bleed) hit my first coat of BT, make sure everything is good looking, and continue on to 2nd.. all this with just some spray cans of bin next to me in the event you get some bleeding or repair spot priming. A couple more tests and smaller jobs I think I’ll get it figured out.

There’s no shortage of surprises in this game we play haha... I also need to get another pump. I’ve been using my x5 which is normally for my thinner WB coatings but I have the pressure cranked and still get a streaky/tail pattern occasionally.

I’m also playing with my gun filters. With the fflp tips I usually use the fine mesh, but it almost seems too restrictive. I might jump up until I get clogs and drop down.

another thing that I’ve noticed and seen mentioned is BT is ridiculously dirty and must be strained every time the lid comes off haha.. that and the viscosity changes from their white base (thick like primer in my current situation) and the deep ( black beauty right now, is a lot thinner).. so a bigger pump will help eliminate any thinning needs.

ok I’m done typing for the night 😂


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## Rbriggs82

Scum138 said:


> I see some real time saving potential with the product for sure. I’m so used to priming and assessing/fixing imperfections, priming again, sanding again etc...it would be nice to fix any obvious imperfections while doing my initial scuff sand,(I find a combination of medium surf prep pads with the 220-320 abrasive films are just enough to powder up the existing finish but not burn thru preventing a possible stain bleed) hit my first coat of BT, make sure everything is good looking, and continue on to 2nd.. all this with just some spray cans of bin next to me in the event you get some bleeding or repair spot priming. A couple more tests and smaller jobs I think I’ll get it figured out.
> 
> There’s no shortage of surprises in this game we play haha... I also need to get another pump. I’ve been using my x5 which is normally for my thinner WB coatings but I have the pressure cranked and still get a streaky/tail pattern occasionally.
> 
> I’m also playing with my gun filters. With the fflp tips I usually use the fine mesh, but it almost seems too restrictive. I might jump up until I get clogs and drop down.
> 
> another thing that I’ve noticed and seen mentioned is BT is ridiculously dirty and must be strained every time the lid comes off haha.. that and the viscosity changes from their white base (thick like primer in my current situation) and the deep ( black beauty right now, is a lot thinner).. so a bigger pump will help eliminate any thinning needs.
> 
> ok I’m done typing for the night 😂


A 308 tip will greatly reduce your problem with tails. It took me forever to figure how to spray Breakthrough without thinning it and that was the ticket. I spray with a Graco ProFinish II with the pressure turned up just a hair above halfway. Even though I'm using a AAA machine I've never been able to get it to spray nice with the air assist which is disappointing and my screen died so I don't know exactly what psi I'm at so a little above halfway is the most accurate I can give you. I've found the deeper bases to be thicker but they all have a tremendous amount of junk and need to be strained prior to spraying.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Rbriggs82 said:


> A 308 tip will greatly reduce your problem with tails. It took me forever to figure how to spray Breakthrough without thinning it and that was the ticket. I spray with a Graco ProFinish II with the pressure turned up just a hair above halfway. Even though I'm using a AAA machine I've never been able to get it to spray nice with the air assist which is disappointing and my screen died so I don't know exactly what psi I'm at so a little above halfway is the most accurate I can give you. I've found the deeper bases to be thicker but they all have a tremendous amount of junk and need to be strained prior to spraying.


Get your self one of these. indispensable for diagnosing sprayer issues.








Airless Pressure Gauge with Tee Assembly | J.N. Equipment Superstore


Airless Pressure Gauge with Tee Assembly 0 to 6000 PSI Pressure Gauge complete with HP Tee Fitting, 1/4in nptm x 1/4in nptf swivel Gauge threaded: 1/4in nptm Comes complete with HP Tee Fitting 1/4in nptm x 1/4in nptf swivel




www.jnequipment.com


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## illusionsgame

bluegrassdan said:


> So if the PPg low voc breakthrough isn't good for kitchen cabinets than nothing is. All I have to choose from is big box stores and Benjamin moore so I am out of luck.


Advance from Ben moore. Water based alkyd, not brushmarks, no need to spray. What's not to like?


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## Masterwork

Emerald is worth a try. It gets harder than advance. I know this site likes to poop on SW, but not all of their stuff is bad.

Also, filter your paint before it even gets to the pump. I don't run filters in my guns, mainly because they clog too fast and aren't easy to get to for cleaning. Run a manifold filter of your choosing, but a medium mesh should be fine. If you keep getting tip clogs, you can try a finer mesh, but seriously just filter with a mesh bag or something.


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## Rbriggs82

illusionsgame said:


> Advance from Ben moore. Water based alkyd, not brushmarks, no need to spray. What's not to like?


16 recoat time, takes forever to dry, deep colors are a nightmare, and any little sanding mark shows right through.


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## Woodco

And it'll Forrest Gump on you if you're not super careful.


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## Joe67

Rbriggs82 said:


> 16 recoat time, takes forever to dry, deep colors are a nightmare, and any little sanding mark shows right through.


I'm sure there is discussion of this in one of the many threads where Advance comes up. But I'm wondering whether or not anyone cheats / has cheated on the recoat time. I have not, but also avoid Advance partly for this reason.

But I know a woodworker guy who does a lot of custom cabs along with his own finishing. I asked him once and he said "why, what's the recoat time?" And when I said 16 hrs, he just laughed and said, oh, yes - all of the time. 

While it does take longer than a typical latex interior to dry, it's still - to me - feeling dry enough to recoat typically within a couple of hours. So what happens if you cheat and don't give it the 16 hours? It just seems weird. Even oil based stuff isn't that long. So who knows what's up with that? What happens if I only wait, say, 4 hours? Or even 8?


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## cocomonkeynuts

Joe67 said:


> I'm sure there is discussion of this in one of the many threads where Advance comes up. But I'm wondering whether or not anyone cheats / has cheated on the recoat time. I have not, but also avoid Advance partly for this reason.
> 
> But I know a woodworker guy who does a lot of custom cabs along with his own finishing. I asked him once and he said "why, what's the recoat time?" And when I said 16 hrs, he just laughed and said, oh, yes - all of the time.
> 
> While it does take longer than a typical latex interior to dry, it's still - to me - feeling dry enough to recoat typically within a couple of hours. So what happens if you cheat and don't give it the 16 hours? It just seems weird. Even oil based stuff isn't that long. So who knows what's up with that? What happens if I only wait, say, 4 hours? Or even 8?


It will possibly rewet its self and not cure properly. People of course push the recoat all the time.

Speaking of recoat times... Aura will be getting a refresh soon with some upgrades to include more open time, better sag resistence, better hide in off whites, and possibly incorporating some scuffx technology.


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## finishesbykevyn

I've done it tons and the world didn't end. Although its not good practice especially on something like cabinet doors. If it hasn't finished off gassing, there could be long term consequences, like the product staying softer than norm, or taking longer to cure, marring etc.
The long cure time doesn't usually bother me on bigger projects. I'm usually not putting a second coat until the next day anyway. 
Even cabinet coat is a 6 hr. Recommended recoat. Who's going to wait around 6 hours for that?


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## Woodco

The recoat time in advance is the same as an oil base. Even though its dry, it takes oxidation to cure. If you recoat too soon, you prevent that oxidation on the first coat.


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## illusionsgame

Rbriggs82 said:


> 16 recoat time, takes forever to dry, deep colors are a nightmare, and any little sanding mark shows right through.


not for me, man


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## Redux

I’m never concerned with between coat drying times and turnaround times in general, letting things dry the distance before recoating, and pretty much include a 2-week turnaround stipulation in the contracts no matter how quickly something can be finished. Why the big rush? Limited space? Cash-flow? Inconveniencing the customer? Scheduling?


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## Masterwork

My issue with advance is that it stays wet for so long. They claim it's so the paint can level out, etc... All I can say is that it's more time for sags to happen, dirt and dust to get kicked into it, etc... 

It's not a contractor paint, it's a DIY product. Imagine trying to paint doors and trim on an actual construction site with Advance. What a nightmare.


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## finishesbykevyn

Masterwork said:


> My issue with advance is that it stays wet for so long. They claim it's so the paint can level out, etc... All I can say is that it's more time for sags to happen, dirt and dust to get kicked into it, etc...
> 
> It's not a contractor paint, it's a DIY product. Imagine trying to paint doors and trim on an actual construction site with Advance. What a nightmare.


Definitely not suited to a busy new construction site. Great for a controlled shop setting. With the right climate setting, its dry to the touch in an hour or so.


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## Raska

Did you try Zinsser?


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