# Knots and tounge and groove



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I am putting together a bid for a summer cottage, and need some advice. The entire interor has oil poly on it. The ceiling has a ton of knot, which the home owner does not want to see through the new white paint. So my questions are...will the oil poly block the knots, and if not, can I use coverstain over the poly, or do I have to use a bonding primer and then Bin to block the knots.
On the tounge and groove, do I have to sand every groove, or will a good sanding of the flat surface and then a bonding primer be good enough, or should I also use Gloss Off?









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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

BIN is the only primer you need to use. I would only sand the flats. Look's like a nice job...


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Sand with 220, Bin is great or spray 1 or 2 coats of coverstain, sand and 2 coats of BM Advance Saitn.
Good to go. 
good luck Dan


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yep, that one has all the markings of turning the place into a chemical factory. Hopefully, the owners will be gone for the season since it's gonna get stinky. Ventilate ventilate ventilate.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Shame. I'd just paint the wall paneling and leave that ceiling. It would look good. In another few years they'll be paying you to strip the white...lol.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

My prediction is that you will have to fill every knothole and imperfection with Elmer's Carpenters filler. If you don't do it before you prime or in between coats of primer the homeowner will ask you to do it after the top coat is on. I've seen it happen several times where no one thinks about filling the knot holes and the homeowner can't stand seeing them when it's all done.

It's going to take several large tubs of Elmer's Carpenter filler.

if you if you don't already have one it's time to buy a full face respirator too.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Yup. Get straight into bin. Anything else would just be a wast of time on a gamble. Bin would do the job without question. I wouldn't sand a thing (unless something is really obvious)till you get it primed. Then you'll be able to see exactly what you need to do. And whatever needs to be done after that point could easily be done with latex...you'll probably want to throw a final prime coat on it after all the filling and sanding. Bin for bond and seal, 123 or ??? For sealing the patches and building a finish coat. Not sure what your finish is but ya may be able to bypass 123 and just throw 3 coats of finish on it and be done. 
Yes, that is a nice job! Looks like a lot of work and a nice payday for ya!

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Ok, my follow up question is that I do not spray...do not own one. Does Coverstain have enough grip if use on the tounge and groove if I do not sand all of the grooves. And, since I have no desire to roll out the ceiling with Bin, will one coat of Coverstain block the knots or should I apply two coats?

Or, should I just suck it up and roll on the Bin? I hate how watery it is.

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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Ok, my follow up question is that I do not spray...do not own one. Does Coverstain have enough grip if use on the tounge and groove if I do not sand all of the grooves. And, since I have no desire to roll out the ceiling with Bin, will one coat of Coverstain block the knots or should I apply two coats?
> 
> Or, should I just suck it up and roll on the Bin? I hate how watery it is.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Suck it up use BIN to avoid tannin bleed and knot sap... Like ride said fill the knots as well.. Good luck.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*My 2 cents*



Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I am putting together a bid for a summer cottage, and need some advice. The entire interor has oil poly on it. The ceiling has a ton of knot, which the home owner does not want to see through the new white paint. So my questions are...will the oil poly block the knots, and if not, can I use coverstain over the poly, or do I have to use a bonding primer and then Bin to block the knots.
> On the tounge and groove, do I have to sand every groove, or will a good sanding of the flat surface and then a bonding primer be good enough, or should I also use Gloss Off?
> 
> 
> ...


Pete, without actually being there and seeing the surfaces up close as well as feeling them, I would offer the following:
1.	You don’t know if the knots will bleed through the oil poly until you put a primer like 123 or Aqualok on a section. If that works, then you are good to prime with a water base. If not, I would use BIN. You could also prime first with a water base, then come back and hit whatever is bleeding through with BIN. That will cut down on a lot of alcohol wafting about.
2.	Should you sand before or after priming? If the surfaces are clean, I would sand after priming and patching. As far as the grooves go, you will be able to see whether or not they need sanding after putting a coat of white primer on. A sponge sander corner should be able to make quick work of sanding if needed.
3.	After everything is primed you will be able to see what needs to be spackled. I would use Durabond. A 25 lb. bag of Durabond should cost you under $10.00 including tax if you shop around. Durabond has glue in it aside from being mostly plaster of paris. It dries very hard and sticks to most things like white on rice. Next time you are using both Easy Sand and Durabond on the same job, drop some gobs of each on a floor that is not critical. Let both fully dry, then try to scrape up both. The ES will come up easily. The Durabond will take significantly more work to get off. The only consideration I would have in using Durabond is if the knots would move too much via humidity, thus dislodging the Durabond somehow, where a product like Elmer’s Wood Filler might not. If someone here has found this out, please chime in.
Depending on how much spackling there is to do you could choose between 20, 45 or 90. I would spackle any holes flush or slightly concave. Make sure you mix your Durabond well. I use a round metal bowl and mix with a rubber spoon-shaped spatula. Works very well. 
By the time you are done spackling the first coat of Durabond should be dry where you started. Apply a second coat of Durabond, let dry, then sand. I usually set up a fan to dry my spackling. The idea is to use as little Durabond to fill the holes with. It sands very hard, but if you fill the holes correctly, the sanding will go smoothly.
For sanding I like to use Gator brand sanding sponges. I believe that Gator labels these for Ace Hardware as well. They only have grit on front and back, not the sides. The foam rubber is stiffer than other sponge sanders and will let you sand flat better. If the majority of holes you spackle are small enough you might use a 4 sided sponge sander hooked up to a vacuum cleaner. I posted my makeshift version of this in Tools and Equipment a year or so ago. Using a vac sander helps dispense with wiping down the surfaces after sanding. I prefer using the spnge/vac combo as it really cuts down on the mess and lets you breath much easier.
4.	Prime the spackling according to what paints you are applying to what surfaces.
5.	Lastly, and most importantly, if I were looking at estimating this job, I would do exactly as you are doing and come here to ask others what they would do and why. I like to avoid putting fast moving projectiles through my feet.
That is my 2 cents. Right now I am sitting at home after finishing a condo that had lots of dog dander. The customer was sick as well, so I am busy taking all kinds of herbal tinctures, vitamin C and other such things trying to head off a prolonged cold at the pass so I can go to work outside on a hi rise balcony in Chicago!

futtyos

P.S. if you or anyone else has any questions, and I mean ANY questions, no matter what, please feel free to ask and I promise I will be nice and not bite.  I encourage all others to do the same lest we lose more of our valued posting members as has happened in the recent past. Now for a nap.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Ok, my follow up question is that I do not spray...do not own one. Does Coverstain have enough grip if use on the tounge and groove if I do not sand all of the grooves. And, since I have no desire to roll out the ceiling with Bin, will one coat of Coverstain block the knots or should I apply two coats?
> 
> Or, should I just suck it up and roll on the Bin? I hate how watery it is.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Well Pete, to be honest, I think ya need to suck it up and go buy a little sprayer. We'll happily guide you though the initial fears and even a cheapo home depot one would pay for itself many times over on just that one job. 
Trust me, once you figure out your flow you'll never look back. It's just the idea thats scary, not the actual spraying. In under an hour you'll be wondering why it took ya so long to buy one!! Lol

You can roll it all out with coverstain then bomb can bin if you need to. And if that's what you're comfortable with then go for it! Just trying to help ya grow buddy, sometimes we just need a little push to try something new. 

Also, you can get with your local paint store and ask em to send a pump rep out if you do decide to pull the trigger (hahaha). (S)he can give you a hands on that'll help with the confidence.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wouldn't the poly already have sealed the knots, in terms of bleed through? And if that's the case, wouldn't a 100% acrylic primer be adequate enough, albeit after holes and dings are patched?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Wouldn't the poly already have sealed the knots, in terms of bleed through? And if that's the case, wouldn't a 100% acrylic primer be adequate enough, albeit after holes and dings are patched?


That is why I was asking if Bin or Coverstain are necessary.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> That is why I was asking if Bin or Coverstain are necessary.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


I think these 100% acrylic primers stick pretty well. Name your brand. And I'm certain the poly has acted as a pretty solid thermoplastic film. So short of lightly sanding the surface and applying a WB bonding primer, I'm not sure you'd need to go all nuclear on it.

In other words, a bare substrate has already been addressed.

Note: See how I get to the point by paying attention to the details. This is my purpose after all. ...relax j/k!!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Wouldn't the poly already have sealed the knots, in terms of bleed through? And if that's the case, wouldn't a 100% acrylic primer be adequate enough, albeit after holes and dings are patched?


Maybe and maybe. But with things like that, imo, I don't like maybe. It tales the same amount of effort and pretty much (cs vs. 123) the same amount of money to get rid of maybe. We're painters....sometimes ya gotta go with the smelly stuff. And sanding would be easier imo. I'm banking on all the grain raising and whatnot has already (mostly) been addressed by the guys who did the clear and I'd be priming for bond (no you shouldn't have to sand any grooves) and color then to seal any patches. And there's gonna be A LOT of caulking which is best seen after priming. Sanding that poly may be unnecessarily adding to the work load. I wouldn't touch it unless it was super glossy which I doubt is the case. 
Anyway, to each their own. 
Pete, if I were in your shoes I'd plan on running a sample. Then you can be pretty confident with your process. But I have no doubt that coverstain will bite that with no problem.

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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

futtyos said:


> Pete, without actually being there and seeing the surfaces up close as well as feeling them, I would offer the following:
> 1.You don’t know if the knots will bleed through the oil poly until you put a primer like 123 or Aqualok on a section. If that works, then you are good to prime with a water base. If not, I would use BIN. You could also prime first with a water base, then come back and hit whatever is bleeding through with BIN. That will cut down on a lot of alcohol wafting about.
> 2.Should you sand before or after priming? If the surfaces are clean, I would sand after priming and patching. As far as the grooves go, you will be able to see whether or not they need sanding after putting a coat of white primer on. A sponge sander corner should be able to make quick work of sanding if needed.
> 3.After everything is primed you will be able to see what needs to be spackled. I would use Durabond. A 25 lb. bag of Durabond should cost you under $10.00 including tax if you shop around. Durabond has glue in it aside from being mostly plaster of paris. It dries very hard and sticks to most things like white on rice. Next time you are using both Easy Sand and Durabond on the same job, drop some gobs of each on a floor that is not critical. Let both fully dry, then try to scrape up both. The ES will come up easily. The Durabond will take significantly more work to get off. The only consideration I would have in using Durabond is if the knots would move too much via humidity, thus dislodging the Durabond somehow, where a product like Elmer’s Wood Filler might not. If someone here has found this out, please chime in.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. When I first started using Durabond, I made the mistake of using it as the final coat on some repairs I had made. I had my Festool sander on full power with low grit paper....took a long time to sand smooth. Only made that mistake once.

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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Durabond for final skim coat*



Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Thanks for the advice. When I first started using Durabond, I made the mistake of using it as the final coat on some repairs I had made. I had my Festool sander on full power with low grit paper....took a long time to sand smooth. Only made that mistake once.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


I actually like using Durabond for the final skim coat on both skim coats and repairs. Durabond is very fine and dense unlike Plus3 and other light muds used for top coating. You have to skim it on very thin and not overfill. If you overfill, it will be very hard to sand. If you mix it so it is thin enough to go on smoothly and you are able to scrape most of it off with a knife, making it real nice and flat, you won't have to do much sanding, possibly even just scraping it with the mud knife. I have done repairs with Durabond where it ends up so smooth I don't have to sand or at least have very minimal sanding.

Though I like using Durabond (and sometimes Easy Sand) for the final coat because it gives such a nice, hard surface, I have found that priming it with 123 will "melt" the DB or ES! It even says on the bags of DB and ES that neither are recommended for top coating. I have found that a coat of Gardz over a last coat of DB or ES will seal and harden them without melting either. I ususally don't do this on every wall or ceiling, just walls that will have a lot of reflective light and possible traffic that would easily put nicks into a top coat of Plus3 or other light sanding topping.

The nice thing about patching with Durabond instead of Easy Sand is that when you are finished spackling a bunch of walls and still have soem DB left, you can go back and start a 2nd coat over the initial patches and the 2nd coat of mud "takes" while you are knifing it on. When i try to do this with ES, it seems to reactivate the 1st coat of ES and make a mess.

After reading some other comments, I wonder if this is the job where you learn to use a sprayer, even if only for the prime coat. Cutting in looks like it will be very time consuming with a brush. Good luck!

futtyos


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Well Pete, to be honest, I think ya need to suck it up and go buy a little sprayer. We'll happily guide you though the initial fears and even a cheapo home depot one would pay for itself many times over on just that one job.
> Trust me, once you figure out your flow you'll never look back. It's just the idea thats scary, not the actual spraying. In under an hour you'll be wondering why it took ya so long to buy one!! Lol


At some point, I gotta follow this advice and just go for it. Blow a grand or two and just go for it. I keep thinking about it, but just gotta do it. Just don't do enough new construction to make it worth while and can't do any exteriors around here with it due to the high winds. It's seriously windy here.

Anyhoo...


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> At some point, I gotta follow this advice and just go for it. Blow a grand or two and just go for it. I keep thinking about it, but just gotta do it. Just don't do enough new construction to make it worth while and can't do any exteriors around here with it due to the high winds. It's seriously windy here.
> 
> Anyhoo...


You can get a new 390 for under a grand. 
I finally gave a little home depot one away that's been on my garage for about 5 years (it was in my bosses garage for about 5 years or more before that) it was a tank and I tried hard to abuse it running all kinds of crap thatvi didn't want in my goof pumps through it. It just woudnt break!lol
Or finding a repair shop with a good rebuild is another option if you really don't think you'll use it much. There are things that just make sense to spray. I'd never sprayed a thing for the first 10 or 12 years....its a game changer.
Anywho, not trying to be an over zealous pump pusher. Yes, that project can be rolled in the way pete wants to do it. It just looks like a great opportunity to learn something....heck once ya get into latex, you could just go rent a pump for a couple of days. No commitment necessary.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> You can get a new 390 for under a grand.



Not up here. Not from what I've seen. Maybe used, but I haven't looked into it. I hate buying stuff like that used. Usually it's some guy trying to get rid of something that's already wrecked. Nobody up here doing repaints uses them. Or at least it's rare. Maybe in the larger populated areas, but certainly not around here.

That being said, I like toys. Maybe I'll figure out a way to fit one in some day.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

I couldn't agree more with lilpaintchic, you definitely need a sprayer for that job and if you price it right that job alone will pay off nice Graco sprayer or close to it. It reminds me when I visited my brother in Vancouver couple of months ago and he was showing me new casing and baseboard he installed ( he is a concrete truck driver by trade btw ) it looked nice but nail holes were kinda big so I asked him what kind of brad nailer he used. He was like what do you mean I used small nails and a hammer lol, I told him to buy a brad nailer which he did and he calls me up week later wondering why I didn't tell him about it sooner. He couldn't believe how much easier and quicker it was using a brad nailer and he didn't need nail punch to set the nails. I know that's kinda off topic but point is the same, you won't believe how much time you'll save with a sprayer and get a much nicer finish on everything you spray. It's not that hard to do and there is plenty of videos on YouTube that will point you in the right direction, get some cardboard and practice in your garage or on a job site to get a feel for it but it truly is easier then it looks. Good luck


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

I'm with lpc on this. Time to learn to spray. I don't want to even think about rolling out bin on that ceiling. So much time loss. I don't know how you guys do it. I never roll ceilings. Unless its a little bathroom.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not up here. Not from what I've seen. Maybe used, but I haven't looked into it. I hate buying stuff like that used. Usually it's some guy trying to get rid of something that's already wrecked. Nobody up here doing repaints uses them. Or at least it's rare. Maybe in the larger populated areas, but certainly not around here.
> 
> That being said, I like toys. Maybe I'll figure out a way to fit one in some day.


If you look for them when they are on sale you can get a pretty good deal.Earlier this year I bought a new airless Graco 495 newest model with smart control and what not and it included contractors spray gun all for around $ 1,600.00 CAD taxes in. This was at our local SW store and I think that was a great deal.


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> At some point, I gotta follow this advice and just go for it. Blow a grand or two and just go for it. I keep thinking about it, but just gotta do it. Just don't do enough new construction to make it worth while and can't do any exteriors around here with it due to the high winds. It's seriously windy here.
> 
> Anyhoo...


I remember when I first joined painttalk you had one sitting in your garage that was plugged up or something. Think it ended up in the dump. 
Not just for new construction. It pays off on interior repaints as well. Sucks that its hard to get one up there at a good price.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

The Cutting Edge said:


> I'm with lpc on this. Time to learn to spray. I don't want to even think about rolling out bin on that ceiling. So much time loss. I don't know how you guys do it. I never roll ceilings. Unless its a little bathroom.




Same here, can't remember last time we've rolled a ceiling.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Not up here. Not from what I've seen. Maybe used, but I haven't looked into it. I hate buying stuff like that used. Usually it's some guy trying to get rid of something that's already wrecked. Nobody up here doing repaints uses them. Or at least it's rare. Maybe in the larger populated areas, but certainly not around here.
> 
> That being said, I like toys. Maybe I'll figure out a way to fit one in some day.


My local Miller Paint sells the 390 for $699. I'll ship it out to anyone if they want ti buy one and shipping.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Two years ago I painted a friends basement that had similar T&G on the walls. I sprayed it with CoverStain (no prep other than masking) and didn't have any issues with tannin bleed. Unless the poly is very thin or failing I'm doubtful that tannin bleeding would be an issue, I'd be more concerned with adhesion. 

Is this project T&M or fixed bid? I couldn't imagine having to fill all those knots. 


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PNW Painter said:


> Two years ago I painted a friends basement that had similar T&G on the walls. I sprayed it with CoverStain (no prep other than masking) and didn't have any issues with tannin bleed. Unless the poly is very thin or failing I'm doubtful that tannin bleeding would be an issue, I'd be more concerned with adhesion.
> 
> Is this project T&M or fixed bid? I couldn't imagine having to fill all those knots.
> 
> ...


She does not want knots filled nor gaps between boards filled. Kind of happy about that...a lot of work, but very tedious work. Also, fixed bid. So, Ibam going to go a bit high.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So the recommendations are, to spray for sure if you're using BIN, and brush and roll with everything else if that is more comfortable. Have you decided what primer you are going to use?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> So the recommendations are, to spray for sure if you're using BIN, and brush and roll with everything else if that is more comfortable. Have you decided what primer you are going to use?


Just completed the bid, Coverstain on the cielinngs and California Grip Coat on the walls. I want the extra security of a bonding primer in areas that might be banged up...not an issue with the ceilings. I actually realized that Bin really is not an option. This house has no insulation. Therefore I had visions of the Bin failing due to the huge temp fluctuations. I am also using Aura as a top coat. I have found in the past that Regal Select in whites does not hide the dark wood underneath well, and I really do not want to deal with having to put a third finish coat on. 

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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Let us know how that turns out with the primer and if the knots bleed through. From my experience nothing will stop knots these days and will probably start bleeding within 1 year. I have tried multiple brands of primer. Oil, shellac, and acrylic and all have failed mostly overnight with knots. With all the industry is taking out of primers and paints they don't have the stain blocking of past years. I have used a coat of coverstain, come back the next day and spotted all the yellow rings and put a spot coat of bin on them. They will still bleed through sooner than later. It's a shame that painters can't rely on a product to deliver them perfect results with such a common issue as knot bleed. Especially when it wasn't a problem years ago. Thanks to all the tree huggers and "do gooders" this is what we're left with... 


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Let us know how that turns out with the primer and if the knots bleed through. From my experience nothing will stop knots these days and will probably start bleeding within 1 year. I have tried multiple brands of primer. Oil, shellac, and acrylic and all have failed mostly overnight with knots. With all the industry is taking out of primers and paints they don't have the stain blocking of past years. I have used a coat of coverstain, come back the next day and spotted all the yellow rings and put a spot coat of bin on them. They will still bleed through sooner than later. It's a shame that painters can't rely on a product to deliver them perfect results with such a common issue as knot bleed. Especially when it wasn't a problem years ago. Thanks to all the tree huggers and "do gooders" this is what we're left with...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unfortunately, I did not get the job.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Unfortunately, I did not get the job.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


What do you think it was that had them decline?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> What do you think it was that had them decline?


Too expensive. This was a big job, and they told me that with two kids in college they just could not afford it at this time.

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> Too expensive. This was a big job, and they told me that with two kids in college they just could not afford it at this time.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


That's too bad. They've probabl have missed the best opportunity they're ever going to have.


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

If you are going to get yourself a sprayer I will tell you there is no need to spend thousands of dollars on your first. The big rigs cost alot, harder to maintain and must be sent out for repacking. You can get a Titan 400 that can handle anything your going to throw at it for residential work. I work with a 400 plus a Graco magnum Prox9.(That's right I said it!!) Those two little pumps have sprayed a thousand gallons each easy and are still going. Plus I carry spare parts for emergencies and can repair on site. That's my two pennies


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> That's too bad. They've probabl have missed the best opportunity they're ever going to have.



Not happy about Pete not getting the job, but I'm happier just leaving the wood the way it looks now. Not that I'll ever see it, but c'est la vie.


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