# Tips and tricks for using WB lacquer.



## straight_lines

Will be documenting my experimentation with Sherwin Williams kem aqua + on my current cabinet painting project JHC has begun as part of a kitchen remodel in Duplin County. 

The troubles many contractors have had with using this type of product were micro foaming. Hopefully the correct reduction rates using Butyl Cellusolve as our retarder will allow us to spray this coating without issues with our Graco finishpro 395 air assisted airless set up. 











Will be heating this coating to over 100 degrees before reducing.


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## Xmark

they say to mix the retarder with distilled water first (50-50) then add to lacquer. add up to 5% of that retarder mixture slowly.

how are you heating it? i wonder if wrapping the gallon with a heating blanket would work? you can heat it at first but it'll cool off without some outside help.


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## straight_lines

The tds says 2% water and 2% retarder. Using the hot plate pictured above.


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> The tds says 2% water and 2% retarder. Using the hot plate pictured above.


oops my bad. i didn't see the hotplate. is that just a normal hotplate?

well 2+2=4; is close to the 5% i mentioned.


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## straight_lines

Yup just a normal GE hot plate, I used my lazer thermometer.


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> The tds says 2% water and 2% retarder. Using the hot plate pictured above.


I've heard of EB or ethyl butyl used as a retarder. never heard of that chemical. it's probably in the same family of alcohols.


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> Yup just a normal GE hot plate, I used my lazer thermometer.


they have laser thermometers? lol

will you keep the gallon of wb lacquer on the hotplate keeping it warm throughout the spraying process? good idea about the hotplate. i never though of that.


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## DeanV

Laser thermometers are great for exterior projects to check temperatures in the sun or for cold morning starts.

Here is a buck warmer as another option http://www.toolexperts.com/one-gallon-paint-warmer.html


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## straight_lines

Xmark said:


> they have laser thermometers? lol
> 
> will you keep the gallon of wb lacquer on the hotplate keeping it warm throughout the spraying process? good idea about the hotplate. i never though of that.


Yup set it to low, and kept the temps at around 108-110. I just finished spraying one side of this set. Was planning on using my finish pro, but the tip assembly was left in another vehicle. Don't want to drive to go get it, so I am using the hvlp. So far no micro bubbles and the finish is curing out respectably flat.


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## Xmark

what primer did you use? i'm looking for a wb primer that dries ultra fast and sands to a powder. and it must stick to cellulose lacquers and oil finishes that I find were often used on older kit cabinets.


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## DeanV

I have not had microbubbles with hvlp. Only aaa so far, at least in significant, project ruining amounts.


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## Andyman

Why WB lacquer? I don't have any experience with it so I'm curious why this product is spec'd vs normal enamels?


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## Xmark

Andyman said:


> Why WB lacquer? I don't have any experience with it so I'm curious why this product is spec'd vs normal enamels?


wb lacquers are harder and dry much quicker than acrylic paints. that way you can stack,sand and ship kitchen cabinet doors faster.

i used bm advance once but the drying time took a good 4-5 days before you could safely flip them over. you flip them too quick and it will leave imprints from my wire dry rack.

i thought insl-x cabinet coat was a fairly quick process but still much slower curing than a wb lacquer. cabinet coat only comes in light colors and a satin finish. most of my customers prefer semi-gloss for kitchen cabinets.


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## straight_lines

Xmark said:


> what primer did you use? i'm looking for a wb primer that dries ultra fast and sands to a powder. and it must stick to cellulose lacquers and oil finishes that I find were often used on older kit cabinets.


Kem aqua + surfacer. I don't think it work for that, at least not without something else in between.


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## straight_lines

DeanV said:


> I have not had microbubbles with hvlp. Only aaa so far, at least in significant, project ruining amounts.


Yea I haven't either, in fact the tds tells you hvlp is the way to go. I just didn't have my tip or I would have done it with the finish pro. I will be site spraying with it tomorrow so we will see how it goes.


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## straight_lines

Dried finish looks really good, hopefully I can reproduce this in the field tomorrow without to many troubles.


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## Andyman

Xmark said:


> wb lacquers are harder and dry much quicker than acrylic paints. that way you can stack,sand and ship kitchen cabinet doors faster.
> 
> i used bm advance once but the drying time took a good 4-5 days before you could safely flip them over. you flip them too quick and it will leave imprints from my wire dry rack.
> 
> i thought insl-x cabinet coat was a fairly quick process but still much slower curing than a wb lacquer. cabinet coat only comes in light colors and a satin finish. most of my customers prefer semi-gloss for kitchen cabinets.


Makes sense. So why WB lacquer over oil enamel? How do they compare/contrast?


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## straight_lines

Non yellowing, quick cure time, non solvent based.


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## Xmark

how did it go on-site with your graco finish pro? did it run on the verticals?


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## straight_lines

Here is a link to the album containing the site sprayed boxes. I have done enough with the coating to get everything to hang really well. I did have one place I overlapped and I had to sand and respray. It was noting really just a tiny sag in the worst place possible. 

Its another thing I love about this coating. Set a fan up on it and you can sand down any mistakes and repaint in a very short period of time, with any other wb coating I have used it would not have been possible except maybe clears. I just rubbed it out with some 320, masked and resprayed. 

I am spraying the second coat on the doors tomorrow, but they look awesome. I still had foaming and was really disappointed to see the bubbles form but when they cured it pulled so tight no blemishes were visible. I finally have this coating dialed in as far as reduction and the recommended retarder. 

This will be the fastest turn around on a set of cabinets I have ever done I think I finally have my system. :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter

Dude that is one uglay ass 5" abrasive.


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT

Do you pop the lid before you put it on the plate?


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## Xmark

looks good! i'm glad you finally have a system with wb lacquers. i'll have to check that product out as well. did you have to set up a venting system? i assume that you used the graco finish pro?


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## straight_lines

Yea I pop the lids before heating. 

All the site spraying was done with the finish pro 395. I had some negative air flow set up, nothing fancy just plastic and a box fan. 

@Scott that is just some 320 I picked up at lowes on a Velcro backed soft pad. It stays pretty clean with just a tap, I was just showing how well the finish coat sands. That door had two bugs stuck in it.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> Yea I pop the lids before heating.
> 
> All the site spraying was done with the finish pro 395. I had some negative air flow set up, nothing fancy just plastic and a box fan.
> 
> @Scott that is just some 320 I picked up at lowes on a Velcro backed soft pad. It stays pretty clean with just a tap, I was just showing how well the finish coat sands.


Todd and I were checking this out today. Thanks for sharing, we will be checking out the KA. 

And of course looking forward to seeing you in St L.


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## straight_lines

Let me know when and I will send you what I have. Should give you a great head start. 

I should have a really good reference in writing done before St Louis.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> Let me know when and I will send you what I have. Should give you a great head start.
> 
> I should have a really good reference in writing done before St Louis.


We'll share our 395 product and setting bible with you as well. We also have a whole new updated hvlp product/setting chart established for 5 stage.


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## straight_lines

Had to show off some pics of dried finish coat. This coating is so ugly as it starts to cure, you would think it was ruined. I will add up some of the ugly ones to the gallery.


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## DeanV

Wow, I cannot believe how bad some of the pictures are when wet and it dries out to be invisible. Good to know.


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## Schmidt & Co.

straight_lines said:


> Had to show off some pics of dried finish coat. This coating is so ugly as it starts to cure, you would think it was ruined. I will add up some of the ugly ones to the gallery.


Tommy, that angled pic is totally sick!


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## Xmark

looks like glass! did you prime it first?

i do mostly repaints and am looking for a go-to bonding primer over old kit cabinet finishes. i've been using 'stix primer' but it doesn't exactly powder up. i hear good things about the new 'killz max primer' but not sure it will stick to cellulose lacquer. it does stick to glass apparently.

I tried the new BM freshstart 046 primer. it beaded and clogged the sandpaper when sanding. this caused unacceptable scratching to the surface. 

does kemaqua have a primer?

http://www.kilz.com/MCContent/MC_Product/KILZ/KILZ_TDS/MAX_TDS.pdf


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## straight_lines

DeanV said:


> Wow, I cannot believe how bad some of the pictures are when wet and it dries out to be invisible. Good to know.


Its all due to the reduction, heating and retarder I used. 



Xmark said:


> looks like glass! did you prime it first?
> 
> i do mostly repaints and am looking for a go-to bonding primer over old kit cabinet finishes. i've been using 'stix primer' but it doesn't exactly powder up. i hear good things about the new 'killz max primer' but not sure it will stick to cellulose lacquer. it does stick to glass apparently.
> 
> I tried the new BM freshstart 046 primer. it beaded and clogged the sandpaper when sanding. this caused unacceptable scratching to the surface.
> 
> does kemaqua have a primer?
> 
> http://www.kilz.com/MCContent/MC_Product/KILZ/KILZ_TDS/MAX_TDS.pdf


These had never been finished and I used the ka+ surfacer, three coats. My rep explained the systems that it had been tested with on my last job. I used shellac as my primer then. Xim or stix and then you can go with another primer maybe for build and sand ability?


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## Xmark

i never considered using 2 different primers,a bonding then a sanding primer...i'll still be searching for that magical primer that bonds and sands well AND dries in 1/2 hour!


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## Damon T

I just shot Stix for the first time this week and thought it sanded nicely. I let it dry overnight.


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## Xmark

Damon T said:


> I just shot Stix for the first time this week and thought it sanded nicely. I let it dry overnight.


yeah it's good primer,used it many times. i'm just looking for a wb super quick drying bonding primer that sands to a powder in less than an hour.


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## Andyman

What is KA+ surfacer?

I'm getting curious about demoing some WB lacquer.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

I'm pretty sure is Kem Aqua Surfacer


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## straight_lines

Edgar is correctv Kem Aqua + surfacer.


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## Andyman

Straight

I believe you mentioned these were new wood cabinets, is the KA only for new or does it also work repaint? Or another product for repaint?


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## Xmark

Andyman said:


> Straight
> 
> I believe you mentioned these were new wood cabinets, is the KA only for new or does it also work repaint? Or another product for repaint?


it works on old cabinet finishes but you need to use a bonding primer first.


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## straight_lines

My rep wouldn't confirm that after talking to someone in wood finishes today without going to bare wood and using the surfacer. 

I say test it out before you do a lot of work. Usually with repaints there is so much cleaning in prep to do that you will have time to test before making the decision. Have to explain that with you clients. You can always have oil as a back up plan.


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## DeanV

More furniture/cabinet style finishes are geared towards shop application on new wood. Us typical paint contractors are on our own in these realms.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> More furniture/cabinet style finishes are geared towards shop application on new wood. Us typical paint contractors are on our own in these realms.


Dean,

You are not typical in any way. :jester:


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## straight_lines

I could see me using this for trim packages, one of my guys told me its the best cabinet finish we have ever done. I can't argue, they really are sharp and if I didn't know better I would think it was solvent lacquer. I won't get back to install and finish up until mid next week.


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## DeanV

vermontpainter said:


> Dean,
> 
> You are not typical in any way. :jester:


I am aspiring to mediocrity.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I am aspiring to mediocrity.


If you only applied yourself...


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> I could see me using this for trim packages, one of my guys told me its the best cabinet finish we have ever done. I can't argue, they really are sharp and if I didn't know better I would think it was solvent lacquer. I won't get back to install and finish up until mid next week.


how bad is the smell? i hear it's a very hard finish. did you clean up your lines with that alcohol product?


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## straight_lines

No its water based. Smells like window cleaner.


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## vermontpainter

Is cleanup a byotch?

I spent an hour today doing dental cleaning on our hvlp.


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## straight_lines

I dump a gallon of krud kutter into the pump and cycle it after flushing with water. Gun soaks over night and it wipes off with your fingers. 

That stuff will melt waterborne finishes.


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> No its water based. Smells like window cleaner.


ammonia?


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## straight_lines

No like Windex.


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## Xmark

straight_lines said:


> No like Windex.


windex contains Ammonia-D and Alcohol.


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## straight_lines

Yea but it doesn't smell like Ammonia at least not to me.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> I dump a gallon of krud kutter into the pump and cycle it after flushing with water. Gun soaks over night and it wipes off with your fingers.
> 
> That stuff will melt waterborne finishes.


Yikers, I hope I can get Todd to go for overnight Xcite immersion. He does respect your opinion. He has just seen bad things happen when I submerge things and we don't find them for several weeks. Looking forward to running some of these things, including the FPoE head to head.


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## straight_lines

Scott I have had it discolor silver airless guns, but no adverse effects with the g-40. I think you will be fine, but be cautious and try it out first. That is an anodized aluminum gun right? The graco is a baked on finish of some sort I think.


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> Scott I have had it discolor silver airless guns, but no adverse effects with the g-40. I think you will be fine, but be cautious and try it out first. That is an anodized aluminum gun right? The graco is a baked on finish of some sort I think.


It is 24k gold, or so I am told. 

We dunk and soak most of them. Not so much with hvlp, which had me doing dental work today. Grand Entrance has superior adhesion to even non wood substrates.


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## straight_lines

It must be a completely different paint than advance. Now you have me curious to try some.

I have a couple of back burner projects stacked up, hopefully I can make the time to give it a go. Are you spraying it straight up in the 5 stage?


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## vermontpainter

straight_lines said:


> It must be a completely different paint than advance. Now you have me curious to try some.
> 
> I have a couple of back burner projects stacked up, hopefully I can make the time to give it a go. Are you spraying it straight up in the 5 stage?


It is completely different. There is no part of me that thinks they tweaked and repackaged. Entirely different formulation. The dry times alone scream that.


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