# bubbles in finish



## jmthoupaint (Apr 17, 2007)

hey brothers in paint,

I was recently painting some flat metal doors with a new product atleast for me it is called advanced oil from ICI. oil in water. 

What do you all think of this product? 

I rolled them with a mini foam roller and in the second coat i applied a little less than a cup of water to a gallon of paint. But man it was leaving some major bubbles. They never went away until finish dried they poped and left a crater. first coat left minimum bubbles. 

alright I'm new using the foam roller and the advanced oil. 

this will go for future refrence 

thanks in advanced :notworthy:

jmt


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## Humble Abode (Apr 11, 2007)

I never heard of that paint so this may be a stupid question, but why are you putting water in oil based paint?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I never use a foam roller. Maybe to apply stain or poly, but never paint.

I've never used the ICI paint. Is it just an alkyd modified acrylic, or is it one of those goofy "paints like oil, cleans up with water" types? 

The former works foine for me. If its the latter, well they suck IMHO. Way back Zinsser come out with a product called H2Oil, and I gave it a try. It sucked.


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

MANY paint chemists have tried to mix oil and water. AND, a few of us have been semi-successful at it (at best).

Basically, we add specialty surfactants to adjust the HLB (hydrophilic lipophilic balance). I know... I know... GREEK! Keep reading... I promise this will get better.

Oil and water do not mix... unless you lower the surface tension of the water. And, you've probably lowered surface tension of water before like when you used Dawn Dishwashing detergent or Tide. 

Lowering the surface tension can have one unpleasant side effect in paint... it can stabilize foam. That means it makes it hard for the foam (bubbles) to break. The question here is whether extra time would allow the air (bubbles) to come out of the film before the film closes. 

So, if you like the paint (other than the poor film appearance) you might try to add a bit of propylene glycol to it. If it mixes in alright (which I suspect it will) then it will give the paint a little more open time to get the bubbles out before it closes up.


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## Brushslingers (Apr 11, 2007)

Hehe, now THAT, is deep info.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Read it carefully. There will be a quiz on Monday.


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## DelW (Apr 18, 2007)

Oh great, I didn't know there was gonna be a test


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

Ok... now for the quiz...

Two planes leave from NY and LA at... 

lol...:jester:


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

If you like my quizzies....













....you'll love my testies


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

But enough about that

Sorry, I haven't used any Oil In Water paints


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

yep they are making hybrid paints, i have not used them but saw them in ici also.


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

slickshift said:


> But enough about that
> 
> Sorry, I haven't used any Oil In Water paints


 Are you sure? BM exterior latex is waterbase with linseed oil!


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

MoorGlo/SoftGloss?
Huh...


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## PlantainPainting (Apr 19, 2007)

BenMoore exterior SoftGloss and LowLustre are alkyd-fortified. Has the oil been added to increase the bond/adhesion factor or for the longevity of the finish? Or did they just add it to make cleaning brushes a pain in the neck?

Also I tried H2O primer from Zinsser. It seemed to seal well and dried rather quickly; also it sands out nicely and worked for me in colder weather (40 degrees). They say it is a "true" oil base which remains flexible for exterior use. It is somewhat of a pain to work with and although it says clean-up with soap & water, the brushes look like garbage after you clean 'em according to the directions. I'll let you know next year when I look at it again.


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## Primer Guy (Apr 20, 2007)

The advanced oil product from ICI recommends Latex Extender from XIM. It is on the AO can label. Should go a long way to solve your problems. Advanced Oil is alkyd in a water based emulsion.


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## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Oh my poor brain! What is all this talk about mixing oil and latex? Maybe I am too old school, but what is wrong with using either or? In the old days I used oil base paint, mainly because my employer thought that it was more durable than latex of the day. Now latex is high quality and oil is for special applications, right? What is the point of trying to mix two substances that by nature DO NOT MIX ? I guess I still subscribe to the theory that one should keep things simple. Am I wrong here? Happy painting, Paul_R. :chef: :drink:


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

I wouldn't say you are wrong... but... let's think about it. Americans (just like other cultures) always want the best of both worlds. We want our cars to have some muscle but get good gas mileage. So, we have hybrid cars. 

Painters want the look and properties of oil but want to meet VOC regulations and (more importantly) they don't want to wait so long for it to dry. 

So, if we can create paints that give the best of the 'oil world' with the speed of the 'water world', we've combined the best of both worlds. 

And, as it stands right now, there are just some things that we have not been able to get water systems to do yet.


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## Bushdude (Apr 17, 2007)

Anyone ever used BM gloss urethane? When you put it on with a roller it bubbles like crazy, but when you roll it out the bubbles go away.


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

jmthoupaint said:


> hey brothers in paint,
> 
> I was recently painting some flat metal doors with a new product atleast for me it is called advanced oil from ICI. oil in water.
> 
> ...


Dump the foam roller. I don't know how this compares to the water born poly's, but they bubble notoriously.


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

Joewho said:


> Dump the foam roller. I don't know how this compares to the water born poly's, but they bubble notoriously.


ditto 


:2guns: foam roller


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

the foam rollers w/mohair surface (orange) from Germany are great.

a surfactant is good... flotrol or ?

Yah, I accidentally dumped some alkyd into the barrel when getting rid of my old paint on a blow n go on an old ranch house where the client just didn't care... it amounted to probably less than 10%...
So I gave the mix a shot of denatured and it ended up ok.
MOF, the job came out great!
It's called an emulsion ...
Usually used on driveways and such... HA!
r


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

The brand of paint C2 is an acrylic emulsion paint. Maybe the wolverine can shed some light on the emulsion process


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

Sure,

First, there are LOTS of types of emulsions. But, the two that are important here are 'Oil in Water' and... you guessed it... 'Water in Oil'... 

Basically, making an emulsion is the process of combining two things that don't mix. To do this, you've got to add something to stabilize the two things that don't mix. Let's start with something simple... If any of you have seen the link in my signature, you know that kids and paint just don't mix! 










By the way, these aren't my kids... lol... 

Now, one way to get two things to mix that shouldn't mix is to add some kind of stabilizer. In the above example, we would add 1 heaping portions of 'mom'. When we add just the right amount of 'mom', it is ok to mix paint with kids. However, if you don't add enough 'mom' (like she is asleep) it won't work! Conversely, if you add too much 'mom', it can totally take the fun out and you can have a separation effect.  Last, for best results, you MUST use the right 'mom' (this is usually the kid's actual mom and not just any mom). 

Ok, now... with that analogy in mind... The same thing must happen when mixing water in oil OR oil in water. AND, it does make a difference which one is being added to another... Many of you who are familiar with reducing acids with water can attest to this trait... (If you have a good story about this... speak up!)... 

With paint, we are going to use some kind of stabilizer like a surfactant in place of 'mom'. We don't want to use too much or too little and we want to use the right one. Sometimes this can get pretty complicated and we might have to use a variety of surfactants. So, before mixing the two you have to get the right balance. HLB is the Hydrophilic-Lipophilic balance (hydrophilic is water-loving and lipophilic is oil-loving). So you've got to add something that will bridge the two materials... something with just the right balance of oil loving and water loving tendancies. 

So, in general products similar to the C2 (C2000 acrylic emulsion), work by adding an oil soluable acrylic into water. By adding this type of acrylic resin into water you get the best of both worlds. First, you get lower odor and V.O.C. since water is used instead of solvents. Many times, the dry time can also be shortened but not always. The reason to do the emulsion in the first place is that the oil-soluable resin gives higher permormance. So, you get the performance of a solvent based product without the odor and V.O.C. :thumbsup:


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

So in theory C2 should be a better paint? My experience with it was it was fine but I notice nothing better to pay the extra money.


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> So in theory C2 should be a better paint?


Theory or not...C2 is awesome paint, now they just need to branch out and sell there paints in more stores. The closest one to me is 1 hr away. Because of that, many guys in this area haven't even heard of it


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I think we are up to 6 dealers now in the Chicago area, one of which is downtown and is the first C2 exclusive store open by a few designers. The one closet to me is 25 minutes away but its close to the area I work in so I have good access to it. The dealer also is my Sikkens dealer and Muralo man too.


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## Touchstone (Jun 27, 2008)

Roadog said:


> Are you sure? BM exterior latex is waterbase with linseed oil!


 
That explains why it trashes brushes so quickly eh!


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

Hi,

I believe what you were working with is a water-based alkyd. It's an emulsion of alkyd in water. Yes, foam generation in the film is a big problem with them. I currently have one of our suppliers working with BYK to find a good defoaming solution, but NOBODY knows of a good defoamer for these yet. Wolverine was right that propylene glycol will help with the problem. It allows more time for the bubbles to break and then flow back together. One issue with these is that the bubbles will break and then they are too dry for the paint to flow back together and you have craters. The open time increase with PG should solve that problem, but it will hurt your early water resistance and dry time.

*DO NOT USE A DRILL MIXER ON THESE PAINTS BEFORE YOU USE THEM!* That will incorporate lots of microfoam to your paint that takes at least 24 hours to come out if the paint has any body to it.

Also, if you are going over wood with these, then you can defoam the crap out of them and it should look ok. BYK-028 works the best that I have seen so far. You should be able to get a sample of their defoamer off of their website for free. Get the large 500ml size. Be VERY careful about the level that you put in. If you put too much in, then you will get surface defects. You won't be able to see most of these over a wood surface, but on a perfectly smooth flat metal, for example, you will definitely be able to see them. 

http://additives.byk.com/additives/controller.aspx?cid=168&detail=26&detail2=1007#PROD_34262


Some alkyd emulsions are worse for foam than others. 

Can you tell me the exact name of the product that you tried out? I would like to test it out.

Thanks,

Carter

P.S. All of you guys. That additive site from BYK should be your best friend. You shouldn't HAVE to add anything to your paints, but if you do they have a wide range of additives to help you solve your problems.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

I tested it out. And yes, I would not recommend that product for a perfectly flat or non-porous surface. In fact, I think I know the exact resin being used.

Here's the rub with this product for DTM flat surfaces. It seems like it will be a bit ropey if a brush is used for application. I don't claim to be as good of a painter as you folks, but I think you will find the same thing. If you try to roll it on, you are going to get even more foam and bubbles and craters. 

If you have any more questions, let me know.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Water reduceable alkyds are commonly used as a commodity product primarily for waste containers. They usually are unstable and have a poor shelf life. Believe it or not, some have used cheap dishwashing liquid to reduce the bubbles. Also, a short nap mohair pad works well, like those used for floor finishes. Age of the materail could be an issue. If it is more than 6 months old, the product is over the limit. Just some thoughts.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

NACE said:


> Water reduceable alkyds are commonly used as a commodity product primarily for waste containers. They usually are unstable and have a poor shelf life. Believe it or not, some have used cheap dishwashing liquid to reduce the bubbles. Also, a short nap mohair pad works well, like those used for floor finishes. Age of the materail could be an issue. If it is more than 6 months old, the product is over the limit. Just some thoughts.


 
You are talking about the old generation of water reducible alkyds like the Kem Aqua 400 from SW. They are now acrylic and urethane modified and have better stability and performance. I'm not sure what the Dulux Advanced Oil stability is right now, but I'm testing that out.

Oh yeah, and I wouldn't use dishwashing liquid to reduce foam! It should generate more foam! I'm not sure where you heard of that or what type of soap you are talking about. Soap is a compatiblizer which is why Dawn + Water = Oil fightin' power!


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## greensboro84 (Feb 15, 2008)

just wanted to say this is a very interesting discussion. always learning something new here


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

Ok gentlemen,

Thought I would add another finding. The early water resistance on this is not very good. I do a 3 ml draw down, so it's probably a little under 1.5ml film thickness, on cold rolled steel. I let it dry for 4 hours and put 4 spots of water on the film. They sit on the film for 15 minutes. I rub 2 of the spots roughly and dab up 2 of the other spots.

The two I rubbed roughly all came up in a perfect form to where the water was. The two that I dabbed up had significant blushing and blistering. It was almost as if after 4 hours the film was redissolving under the water.

Be careful of your dry times! This is not going to be consistent with all of these water-based alkyds as some of them do provide good early water resistance. From my testing, I would be hesitant to say that this one would be good to use if it is going to rain very soon though!


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Dishwashing liquid is a poor idea for this, however when the cheap stuff was used from the Dollar Store, it really worked for some unknown reason. Also Windex. The type of coatings that are being described now are much different than the container paints. My experience with the newer acrylics and urethanes is very limited. Some of the resin based extender may be a good choice. The standard glycol based extenders may add negativity to the film, but resin based may strengthen the film while giving open time and better leveling.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

NACE said:


> Dishwashing liquid is a poor idea for this, however when the cheap stuff was used from the Dollar Store, it really worked for some unknown reason. Also Windex. The type of coatings that are being described now are much different than the container paints. My experience with the newer acrylics and urethanes is very limited. Some of the resin based extender may be a good choice. The standard glycol based extenders may add negativity to the film, but resin based may strengthen the film while giving open time and better leveling.


Maybe the kind you actually use in your dishwasher would actually work because they have to compatibilize and not foam up, but I still wouldn't recommend it.

I'd like to update this post a little bit. On this ICI Dulux Advanced Oil, I would recommend AGAINST adding propylene glycol to it. The dry time is just FAR too long to begin with. From what I've seen and know from the 1000+ hours I've researched these products, I would say to avoid this product for these reasons:

1) I believe it is an inferior resin.
2) The dry time is too long. I applied a 3 ml drawdown so a little under 1.5ml dry film thickness today and it was still VERY soft.
3) The early water resistance was NOT good.
4) I can't get a good idea of 24 hour adhesion because it has some sort of wax that the adhesion tape does not stick to.
5) There is inadequate defoaming resulting in, but not exclusively attributed to, surface defects.
6) My best guess based on experience with basically all of the resins like this that exist, is that this resin does not afford you the best properties that you would desire in a water based alkyd.

note: These are just my personal opinions and believe me... I have done the work on these.

Carter


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## Primer Guy (Apr 20, 2007)

All this mentioning of extenders for ICI advanced oil. This product has been out for a while. The Advanced Oil label specifically recommends XIM Latex Extender to help with flow and open time. Reportedly Floetrol does not work with this product too well.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Formulator said:


> P.S. All of you guys. That additive site from BYK should be your best friend. You shouldn't HAVE to add anything to your paints, but if you do they have a wide range of additives to help you solve your problems.


Carter, my bookmarks folder LOVES new sites, but this one has me baffled. So many to choose from. Being a non-chemist, how would I know I know what is what and what to choose for specific applications?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

that was quite the site he linked too, I was kind of wondering the same thing PWG.

Also Carter, do you know about how much recycled matter goes into our modern paints?


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> Carter, my bookmarks folder LOVES new sites, but this one has me baffled. So many to choose from. Being a non-chemist, how would I know I know what is what and what to choose for specific applications?


 
On the left side of the page, you would click on applications. Then you can take it from there if you are looking for industrial or other applications. Otherwise you most likely would want to click on architectural coatings. 

It will guide you through and give you suggestions according to what properties you are trying to improve or change.

Carter


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Libertine (Apr 6, 2008)

I am getting bubbles in my exterior satin latex, brushing it on. I've not stirred it since it was made and shaken 4 days ago. It about 85*F out and a little windy, but the bubbles arent usually there to begin with... I mist water in the bucket and on the roller and into the brush through out the day. I also slap the loaded brush into the roller cover a lot. Would either of those increase the amount of bubbles. The thing is they weren't there at the beginning of the gallon.


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## Libertine (Apr 6, 2008)

Anyone? btw, i edited my post, at first it said that i DID have bubbles in the beginning of the gallon, but that was not true, i did NOT have. Thanks for any help


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

sounds like a defoamer issue. Sometimes there is too much defoamer in the paint and it reacts like club soda on the surface. Sometimes a shot of paint thinner in the latex will counteract the bubbling. What is the surface temperature? Is it much higher than the air? If so, the latex may be drying too fast on the outside, and trapped solvent or water can not escape because an outer film as already formed prematurely. It sounds like one of the two. How quickly do the bubbles appear? What size are the bubbles? Are they consistently on all surfaces? Do they pop and level out or do they leave a crater?


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## greensboro84 (Feb 15, 2008)

All I got to say is, every time I've used Olympic brand paint, it bubbles like crazy, and leaves craters. This is with semi-gloss, brush and roller.


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## Libertine (Apr 6, 2008)

I feel dumb for posting this now, but it looks like there were bubbles in the can to begin with, even in the second can i just opened and didn't put any water in. They appear as i spread the paint on, from the can i guess? The bubbles don't crater much, most stay in the bubble shape. Brushing them out doesn't seem to help any. The surface temp is the same as ambient, its out of the sun. The bubbles are mostly pretty small, a couple milimeters.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Sounds like the de-foamer. Try adding 1 oz of paint thinner or mineral spirits.


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## Libertine (Apr 6, 2008)

Hey thanks NACE, ill give that a try.


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## Libertine (Apr 6, 2008)

I tried some mineral spirits and that seemed to help a bit, but not enough unfortunately. The paint store (Rodda) tried another batch from another month and same thing happened, then we tried there top of the line 57/gallon "Extreme" paint line and it layed out flat, so it was a problem with their "AC" velvet sheened series i guess. Thanks again for the suggestion NACE.


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