# Skim coating orange peel doors



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

I do painting in a couple of hi rises in Chicago for a GC who remodels exclusively there. The entrance door is a solid core wood door and the balcony doors are metal ocered solid core doors. I have done a bunch of these in several units so far. The unit I am working on has one entrance and one balcony door and both are heavily orange peeled. After taking off most of the hardware, I orbital sanded them, which I normally do on all the units I work in. These doors in particular seem to have a very heavy orange peel texture that is still rather heavy even after the orbital sanding. I am wondering if skim coating them with something might help me get a flat surface. I was thinking of using Durabond. I just read an article about refinishing doors using Swedish putty, which I have never used. Any thoughts on skim coating doors? All sides are interior and I will be painting them with BM Advance semi in Chantilly Lace.

futtyos


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Use a heavier grit sandpaper on that orbital.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Use a heavier grit sandpaper on that orbital.


I thought about that, but I have a feeling that I will have to just about strip the door down to get rid of all the orange peel. I also have some dents and divets to patch, so skimming the whole door would seem to kill 2 birds with one stone. I am just afraid that the durabond will be the wrong material. I was thinking of putting a coat of Gardz on, then skimming and sanding, then Gardz again to harden and saturate the DB and make it all that much tougher, then prime and paint.

I have been using some DB for repair and skimming on the walls. Some of it hit the floor in little blobs, then dried. From how hard it gets and how well it sticks to the floor, I think it might just work on the door.

Perhaps I will pick up some heavier sandpaper on my way to work today and see how that works first.

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I have to think that more sanding would be less work, and result in a better end product, than the process you are contemplating.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

futtyos said:


> I thought about that, but I have a feeling that I will have to just about strip the door down to get rid of all the orange peel. I also have some dents and divets to patch, so skimming the whole door would seem to kill 2 birds with one stone. I am just afraid that the durabond will be the wrong material. I was thinking of putting a coat of Gardz on, then skimming and sanding, then Gardz again to harden and saturate the DB and make it all that much tougher, then prime and paint.
> 
> I have been using some DB for repair and skimming on the walls. Some of it hit the floor in little blobs, then dried. From how hard it gets and how well it sticks to the floor, I think it might just work on the door.
> 
> ...


It depends how much your charging for this door... Sounds like alot of effort for one door.
The Advance is self leveling. After a good sand, the advance should probably hide most of the imperfections..


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

What grit were you sanding with and what sander are you using?

I'd be nervous about skimming the entire door, but if I were to do it I'd probably use Bondo. Compared to Durabond it'll be harder to apply and sand, but Bondo will cure faster and much harder than Durabond. They have a version designed specifically for Wood:
http://bondo.com/products/bondo-wood-filler-30081.html#rtrhwXiM0byDF0um.97

Another option is to apply 2-3 coats of CoverStain instead of skim coating. CoverStain sands very easily and I've heard of people using this process as grain filler for painting oak cabinets.



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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

is bondo good for nail holes in frames?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*orange peel sanding*



PNW Painter said:


> What grit were you sanding with and what sander are you using?
> 
> I'd be nervous about skimming the entire door, but if I were to do it I'd probably use Bondo. Compared to Durabond it'll be harder to apply and sand, but Bondo will cure faster and much harder than Durabond. They have a version designed specifically for Wood:
> http://bondo.com/products/bondo-wood-filler-30081.html#rtrhwXiM0byDF0um.97
> ...


So far I have been using 120 grit with my 5" Milwaukee orbital hooked up to my shop vac. The residue is not real dust-like. More like very fine sand. I am going to pick up some different grits (I have a bunch laying around somewhere and I am sure I will find them as soon as I purchase more!) and see if that won't work.

I have a 3rd door that is for a closet. It is lighter and I can lay it on saw horses. Perhaps the CoverStain would work on this door as I can put on a heavier coat and let it dry horizontally. It will certainly help before applying Advance semi-gloss onto the doors.

Thanks for the advice.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

We've discussed in the past the potential consequences of heating up existing paint with the friction from power sanding. There is a risk of creating a compromised layer of paint film below the new coating system. Therefore, a best practice would be to remove the existing coating and start over.

But as we all know, best practices and what is reasonable for the limited labor a customer is willing to pay for, are two different things. Throw in environmental concerns in terms of methylene chloride from strippers, dust from grinding and sanding, unsecuring doors to work on, etc. and you've just acquired a bucket full of variables.

As someone alluded to up stream, keep it in perspective to the project as a whole. At some point, the customer was willing to accept an orange peel finish. Will it be adequate enough to tone that peel down, and if not, are you getting compensated for a finer finish? Questions and variables. That's the name of the game in painting.

In terms of filling an irregular surface, most spackle products would probably be sufficient. Sure, ester resin bondos and other high strength patching material would perform even better, but they come with there own concerns.


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

Maybe you can take a door home to experiment with it. 

The reason I don't like the idea of skimming a whole door is that whatever you use to skim with might be prone to chipping especially on points of contact where the door hits the door frame, etc.

I might try building a few coats of sand-able bonding primer like cover stain, as others here have said, then sanding it back down to a smother finish. If the texture is really heavy then even that won't be perfect. 

I always have trouble sanding bondo products to a super smooth finish. Somehow the auto body guys are able to to it but it's a very hard material.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

I've used MH Readypatch on isolated areas in cases similar. Deeper damaged areas would get wood putty. For the entire surface I would use something more durable than DB.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

So what did you end up doing? What was the result?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Progress so far*



804 Paint said:


> So what did you end up doing? What was the result?


Thank you for asking, 804 Paint. I have worked on 3 different doors and have tried something a little different with each door. I will give a general explanation here and then post individual comments for each door.

Keep in mind that the condo is in Chicago on the 58th floor, it is winter and dry, and there is a positive pressure in the building. If I open the entrance door and both balcony doors, the air rushing from hallway to outside will give a complete air change in about a minute or 2. None of the doors are properly insulated for draughts, so using a humidifier would be pointless unless I taped and sealed the balcony doors shut. If you want to watch paint dry, but don't want to spend a lot of time doing so, this is the place!

Here is a description of each door, all of which are over 50 years old:

Front entrance door is solid core wood and I am only doing the inside.

Bedroom balcony door is also solid core, but is metal clad on both sides.

Closet door seems to be hollow core, but still somewhat solid.

All 3 doors have several layers of rolled on paint

I initiall sanded them all with 120 grit on my (I am almost ashamed to say this now that Murphy has posted about his new Festool) Milwaukee 5" orbital sander with vac attached. 

I took MikeCalifornia's advice about heavier grit sandpaper. I got 80 grit, sanded them all again, then sanded with 120 again.

I will post different comments for each door along with photos.

futtyos


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Did you spray the door? If yes orange peel is partially due to your settings.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Balcony door*

I can't seem to upload photos since I disabled JAVA script and enabled it again, so let me just describe what I have done.

I sanded this metal clad door down far enough that it is pretty flat. I did have to patch 4 indentation that look like old screw holes that were patched. I did a 1st coat of Durabond 20 mixed with Trim-Tex's Mud_Max. Mud-Max is an additive to help DB stick to metal and vinyl beads. 

I then topcoated the 4 spots with another coat of plain DB, sanded smooth, then rolled a coat of Cover Stain, which I hand sanded after it was dry. I rolled on my first coat of Advance (Chantilly Lace white) and was very pleased with how long I could work with it. Most satins or semis seem to set up before I can get the whole door coated so that if I go back and try to tip the door off, a stipple is created in the now setting paint. Not so with the Advance.

There still is a visible stipple, but it is fine and very uniform. I hope that 2nd coat does the trick. I will report back.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Closet door*

On one side of the closet door I skimmed a coat of DB w Mud-Max, then applied a seciond coat of DB later because I could see spots I had not filled. On the other side I just put one coat of DB w MM. I sort of over-skimmed it so it would fill in the orange peel more.

I sanded both sides and edges down with 120 grit, followed by a sponge sander with vac attached. The surface was very, very smooth. I was going to coat the door with Gardz, but decided to just wipe it down very well and coat it with Cover Stain. The next day I took the door out onto the balcony (60 degrees) and sanded with orbital sander 120 grit. I was very disappointed in how the sander loaded up with the Cover Stain. After a lot of struggle and continually cleaning buggers of dried CS off the sandpaper, I got the door smooth enough to paint. I don't think I will use CS again if I am planning on sanding it.

I leaned the door against the living room wall in line with the front entrance and the liv rm balcony door and rolled a coat of Advance on it, then opened up both doors. By the time I rolled out the bedroom balcony door, then the front entrance door, the closet door was dry enough to turn around a coat opposite side with Advance. It looks very good so far and now I only have to put the 2nd coat on.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Can't spray here*



cdpainting said:


> Did you spray the door? If yes orange peel is partially due to your settings.


Can't spray here


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Entrance door*

The entrance door was the most difficult. It has vertical ridges and valleys that I cannot sand down far enough. By chance, I looked at the hallway side of the door while 90 degrees open and could see very pronounced ridges and valleys that are much deeper than several layers of rolled paint could produce.

As I mentioned about the other doors, I re-sanded this with 80 grit, then 120 grit. I applied a skim coat of DB with Mud-Max, let dry, sanded lightly, applied a second coat of only DB 20, let dry, then sanded smooth. The door was very smooth after 2 coats of DB and the valleys seemed to be filled in. I rolled a thin coat of Gardz on with a 1/4" mini roller. The next day I could see that the mini roller left a very faint stipple that was hard to sand down, but probably would not show through the paint. I decided to roll a coat of Cover Stain on anyway to see if that would fill in any leftover recessed areas. Like I mentioned before, I was disappointed in how the CS sanded. I only hand sanded the front ent door because of dust issues.

I have not put a coat of Advance on this door as of yet because the GC has to plane down the edge to prevent sticking, but i do think it will look far better than what i started out with.

I will comment later on progress.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Durabond for skim coating doors*

So far, I am liking the surface I get on the orange peel doors by sanding them, then skim coating with Durabond and Mud-Max. I seem to be able to get a very smooth finish. I like the idea of applying Gardz over this to help solidify and reinforce the Durabond. I just wish I could get a smoother, more even coat of Gardz on. The directions say not to thin, but i wonder if this might be a good thing to do in my case.

Does anyone here have any idea of a sealer/primer that would go over the very thin skim coat of Durabond and flow out very flat while soaking into the DB and strenthening it? I was hoping that Cover Stain would do the trick, but that does not sand as well as I had hoped.

futtyos


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

futtyos said:


> does anyone here have any idea of a sealer/primer that would go over the very thin skim coat of durabond and flow out very flat while soaking into the db and strenthening it?
> 
> Futtyos



xim uma


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## Jerr (Feb 15, 2017)

I foresee a failure in the near future. Unless the customer doesn't want to pay to do it right. Stripping the door would be best. The issue with a bondo like product is it can not flex, it will eventually crack and pop. Durabond? Isn't that a drywall mud?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Jerr said:


> I foresee a failure in the near future. Unless the customer doesn't want to pay to do it right. Stripping the door would be best. The issue with a bondo like product is it can not flex, it will eventually crack and pop. Durabond? Isn't that a drywall mud?


For some reason, I have always liked Durabond. It is mostly plaster of paris as indicated in the Durabond MSDS sheet:

http://www.daycon.com/images/uploads/9558.pdf

Jerr, you might be right about a failure in the near future, but I am visualizing success! I skipped skim coating the metal clad door in the bedroom that leads to the balcony as I felt that the temperature swings would be too extreme, and it sanded pretty smooth anyway. 

The door to the closet will get minimal knocking around, so I skimmed both sides with DB, then primed with Cover Stain, which I did not like at all. I need to find a good sanding sealer. 

The front entrance door I was most concerned about as it had vertical hills and valleys which may or may not show up on photos I took if I could figure out how to post them here. That door I really think needed some sort of spackling. We have to plane the edge so it doesn't stick when the weather gets more humid and it is so heavy that the GC doesn't want to take it off the hinges to do a clean plane. If it were up to me, I would take the door off the hinges and plane the locking edge enough so that there would be at least a 16th inch gap between the door and the metal jamb. I would prime the edge. I might just use the Minwax wood hardener first, then prime it with Cover Stain. At the same time I would make sure that the top and bottom of the door gets cleaned and sealed. I might use the Minwax wood hardner on that as well, then prime it. I was told by a remodeler back in the 80's that a door should be sealed on all 6 sides to prevent shrinking and swelling with humidity and I have paid attention to that ever since. My GC hasn't caught on to that as yet.

Well, I Durabonded the front door twice, sanded it smooth as glass, put a coat of Gardz on to soak in and solidify the DB (I am also hoping that the Gardz provides a little bit of gummy flex to the DB). The Gardz left a small stipple which did not sand down enough for my liking (I am thinking of using a waterborne poly next time), then I Cover Stained it, hand scuffed it, now I am waiting for the minor surgery to be done on the edge before I apply at least 2 coats of Advance semi to it.

I have applied 2 coats to the metal clad bedroom balcony door and it looks good so far. 

But I digress. You mentioned seeing problems with the Durabond. Durabond has a little sister, Easy Sand. Easy Sand does sand easier than DB. When blobs of Easy Sand fall on the floor when you are spackling, they come up relatively easy with a spackle knife. When blobs of Durabond dry on the floor, be prepared for some work getting them up. DB dries very hard and sticks to surfaces like crazy. There are drywallers out there who spackle the seams between drywall sheets with DB because the DB will be stronger than the drywall itself and will help prevent cracking of drywall tape from settling. At least, that is what I have been told and have done.

At this point I sort of feel like Captain Queeg.........






Captain Queeg


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Curious.What is your purpose of using gaurdz? That's a quick drying sealer normally used for priming over things like wallpaper and glues.. For sealing the durabond, you can just use a regular latex or acrylic drywall/ all purpose primer which will soak in and can be sanded.
I think what you've done will probably work fine.., but In all honesty, I'm surprised for the effort that the GC didn't just replace all the doors with new ones. Especially the closet ones..


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Science project*



finishesbykevyn said:


> Curious.What is your purpose of using gaurdz? That's a quick drying sealer normally used for priming over things like wallpaper and glues.. For sealing the durabond, you can just use a regular latex or acrylic drywall/ all purpose primer which will soak in and can be sanded.
> I think what you've done will probably work fine.., but In all honesty, I'm surprised for the effort that the GC didn't just replace all the doors with new ones. Especially the closet ones..


The reason I used Gardz is that it is basically an acrylic concrete sealer reformulated for drywall and that was the best thing I had on hand. I like the Gardz because it seems to penetrate well. On the last condo we did, I had 3 new doors that came pre-primed. I did not trust the primer, so I applied a thin coat of Gardz to all 3. I could see the Gardz visibly penetrate the factory primer, making it look darker as if water were soaking into it. The paint went over the Gardz like a charm instead of soaking into the facotory primer, which I imagine it would have - similar to top coating right over factory primed MDF, something which I now usually try to hit with Gardz first before painting.

[email protected] has mentioned trying UMA by XIM. I am looking at that as well as the 400 by XIM. I have sent an email to a contact at Rustomleum/Zinsser asking what product might best seal and saturate Durabond as I am using it on the doors. As I mentioned earlier, I am also thinking about trying a water based poly over the Gardz first to see if it would produce a smoother coat than Gardz does.

I sort of volunteered to do some extra work on these doors because I want to find a method for smoothing them out that works well and is cheap to do. He has other condos that he will be doing with more of these orange peel doors.

The GC didn't replace the closet door because it is an odd size and has a door handle that is set in about 6 inches instead of the normal 2 1/2" set in from the edge. He also claims that it will take him a long time to mortice in the hinges and if the old door can be freshened up, it will make everything simpler for him.

If this was higher end work than it is, I would agree that the closet door should be replaced. THe GC would probably agree as well if he was getting paid to replace it. The front door is thick and very heavy and also very heavy to replace, so trying the Durabond is definately cost-effective there. I have done other front entrance doors in this condo building and I don't remember them having the vertical ridges and valleys that this one has. I tried to follow MikeCalifornia's advice on using heavier sandpaper on my orbital, but I think I would have to take the front door off and use a grinder on it to level out the ridges. So far, I believe that skimming with DB is working out faster than that.

I will post further as I progress on these doors.

futtyos


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Holy cow. Thanks for the detailed discussion. I will wade thru soon when I have a bit more time. 


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

804 Paint said:


> Holy cow. Thanks for the detailed discussion. I will wade thru soon when I have a bit more time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No problem. If it is not your problem, then I would expect not as much attention to it from you as myself and others. Same with me regarding other problems here. If I do not know what someone is posting about, I may read and try to understand, but if I have nothing to contribute, I just read and file away fro my sometimer's mid to maybe recollect.

I have found Paint Talk to be a very good resource and like the fact that i can come back later and do some searching to hopefully find answers to problems I have.

futtyos


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

futtyos said:


> No problem. If it is not your problem, then I would expect not as much attention to it from you as myself and others. Same with me regarding other problems here. If I do not know what someone is posting about, I may read and try to understand, but if I have nothing to contribute, I just read and file away fro my sometimer's mid to maybe recollect.
> 
> I have found Paint Talk to be a very good resource and like the fact that i can come back later and do some searching to hopefully find answers to problems I have.
> 
> futtyos


With the search function?:vs_shocked: good luck with that:vs_laugh:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Google is my search function*



chrisn said:


> With the search function?:vs_shocked: good luck with that:vs_laugh:


Chrisn, I have found that it is easier to type into Google my query, followed by the term "Paint Talk" than to try and search directly here on the Paint Talk Forum. Hope this helps. 

futtyos


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