# Shellac vs allprime on cabinets?



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Is it worth it to even think about allprime for my cabinets at home, they have an unknown clearcoat from '68 over stain, and I wanted to use shellac despite nasty working conditions. Miller paint says I may want to try allprime, they say it sticks to tile and other slick stuff...
of course i would sand clear coat down to help adhesion but I don't know about allprime still... what do you guys think? I'm unsure bout topocat but am flexible. I'm thinking advance, oil impervo, oil PC, kem aqua (never used before though) or I dunno what else. I have Miller, BM, Rodda, and SW here.
also i have a cup gun for my air compressor and wondered if shellac thinned down to shoot through that would be too thinned or unsound product after reduction.... thanks


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Go for it!
The water born primers have come a long way. Just used Kelly Moore's Kel-bond adhesion promoting primer on this. It stuck great. I don't have any after pics yet.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We often have this happen with wb primers and oak. It will keep bleeding through multiple coats of primer but sometimes not top coat layer.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> We often have this happen with wb primers and oak. It will keep bleeding through multiple coats of primer but sometimes not top coat layer.


I top coated with Advance. I had a few places bleed on some risers but I think the alkyd arrested it? Didn't show up in the 2nd coat.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Sure if you want to waste time and money go ahead and use a WB primer.

Shellac will perform the same every time. Great adhesion, easy to spray, fast recoat, sands to a powder.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> Sure if you want to waste time and money go ahead and use a WB primer.
> 
> Shellac will perform the same every time. Great adhesion, easy to spray, fast recoat, sands to a powder.


That is sound advice,I was hoping to hear from you guys. I just ran down to miller before they closed and they are closed tomorrow. I didn't see any shellac on shelves but they had sythetic BIN...says fast dry, low odor, stain blocking water clean up.. I don't know if it's effective as real shellac... They also had kel bond, and xim uma urethanized acrylic. I picked up the xim...I have used xim toluene version but not acrylic. They boast high adhesion and tough surface, coat with anything. I wonder how it sands. 
So really still not sure. I'm down with real shellac and before I pull trigger I may just switch up to that...
What about shootin shellac with cup gun.. no problem when reduced?


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

I have several little cheapo hvlp units i use for bin. Seal coat etc. Rarely clean them. Primarily just to get it on quick. Using bin or any other shellac i find you still have to brush it deep into the grain of golden oak. Spraying bin floats it over the grain and fools u into thinking its gone. Shortly after your finish coats begin to cure... Surprise! The grains back. Back brushing bin helps alot. 
After testing every single primer i can get my hands on for golden oak doors. I'm content knowing that BIN will be in my life for the forseeable future.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Luckily I have no grain to deal with.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

XIM UMA is a great bonding primer, but like most bonding primers, it does not block stains well, which may not matter at all.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Pretty sure all prime is oil based at least the all prime I have used is from zinser. Its just a cheaper version of coverstain it should work fine.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

jacob33 said:


> Pretty sure all prime is oil based at least the all prime I have used is from zinser. Its just a cheaper version of coverstain it should work fine.


the allprime i was considering was water based. But now I'm tossing around the xim uma urethanized acrylic I bought, kel bond, shellac or synthetic shellac.
I never thought of kel-bond as a primer. I figured it was like peel stop.... for exteriors... go figure.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

We just used advanced primer for the first time on a new bare MDF bookshelf wall. I was impressed. Although there was no stain blocking to worry about. It laid down very nice. Felt more like an oil. Sanded like an oil after an over night dry. 

I'm really focusing on eliminating solvent based products for the well being of my crew and myself. 

046 and smart prime are two waterborne primers that block stains well. They still have there disadvantaged though (sanding, grain rising, etc.). For me it's worth it. Advanced is pretty much always my topcoat of choice.


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## Paintuh4Life (May 20, 2009)

ridesarize said:


> That is sound advice,I was hoping to hear from you guys. I just ran down to miller before they closed and they are closed tomorrow. I didn't see any shellac on shelves but they had sythetic BIN...says fast dry, low odor, stain blocking water clean up.. I don't know if it's effective as real shellac... They also had kel bond, and xim uma urethanized acrylic. I picked up the xim...I have used xim toluene version but not acrylic. They boast high adhesion and tough surface, coat with anything. I wonder how it sands.
> So really still not sure. I'm down with real shellac and before I pull trigger I may just switch up to that...
> What about shootin shellac with cup gun.. no problem when reduced?


Miller sells Allprime Shellac Base Primer Stain Blocker (It's BIN with a new label) At least I know they sell it in the Portland area, I just bought a 5 yesterday. I've thinned it slightly many times and put it through a cup gun, no problem.


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## harmonicarocks (Nov 29, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> Is it worth it to even think about allprime for my cabinets at home, they have an unknown clearcoat from '68 over stain, and I wanted to use shellac despite nasty working conditions. Miller paint says I may want to try allprime, they say it sticks to tile and other slick stuff...
> of course i would sand clear coat down to help adhesion but I don't know about allprime still... what do you guys think? I'm unsure bout topocat but am flexible. I'm thinking advance, oil impervo, oil PC, kem aqua (never used before though) or I dunno what else. I have Miller, BM, Rodda, and SW here.
> also i have a cup gun for my air compressor and wondered if shellac thinned down to shoot through that would be too thinned or unsound product after reduction.... thanks


Have you considered lacquer undercoater?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

harmonicarocks said:


> Have you considered lacquer undercoater?


Yes I have. I have used hundreds of gallons of it. But it can eat an existing clear coat, and latex does not adhere to it well, thoughts?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

You can thin shellac almost as much as you want. At least as much as you would need for your cup gun etc. it just builds a thinner coat. You may need to apply multiple coats to get the build you want. I used a bunch of the all prime shellac as well as BIN on a recent job. Same thing. In fact the BM store has a Zinsser sell sheet stating that they are the same products just different labels to give the paint store the option of selling it less than the big box stores etc.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Paintuh4Life said:


> Miller sells Allprime Shellac Base Primer Stain Blocker (It's BIN with a new label) At least I know they sell it in the Portland area, I just bought a 5 yesterday. I've thinned it slightly many times and put it through a cup gun, no problem.


I didn't see that and miller employee did not mention it. Is it still the red and white label? I saw the bin synthetic(red and white).. So you say same as bin? so you thinned with denatured?
Thanks. And thank you all for input.


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## jonathanthepainter (Jul 5, 2011)

Go with shellac.

The xim will not sand well.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> We just used advanced primer for the first time on a new bare MDF bookshelf wall. I was impressed. Although there was no stain blocking to worry about. It laid down very nice. Felt more like an oil. Sanded like an oil after an over night dry.
> 
> I'm really focusing on eliminating solvent based products for the well being of my crew and myself.
> 
> 046 and smart prime are two waterborne primers that block stains well. They still have there disadvantaged though (sanding, grain rising, etc.). For me it's worth it. Advanced is pretty much always my topcoat of choice.


We used advance primer once that I recall. It was the job I posted in your cab thread lately. It was over c.v. I think, less likely lacquer. We sanded existing coat and all went well except finding minor adhesion problem when reassembling. Went good though. H.O. complained but them and builder specced it. 
I've used kelly moores hybrid primer a couple years ago and I didn't like how that sanded, in case anyone wanted to know...


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

I've been using Zinsser Smart Prime and no complaints. Is not the best stain blocker in one coat but adhesion is awesome. And it's water based.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

ridesarize said:


> That is sound advice,I was hoping to hear from you guys. I just ran down to miller before they closed and they are closed tomorrow. I didn't see any shellac on shelves but they had sythetic BIN...says fast dry, low odor, stain blocking water clean up.. I don't know if it's effective as real shellac... They also had kel bond, and xim uma urethanized acrylic. I picked up the xim...I have used xim toluene version but not acrylic. They boast high adhesion and tough surface, coat with anything. I wonder how it sands.
> So really still not sure. I'm down with real shellac and before I pull trigger I may just switch up to that...
> What about shootin shellac with cup gun.. no problem when reduced?


No problems reducing shellac and spraying it with any system I have tried. I haven't used the bin alternative but I have used the insulx version. It worked very similar and you should be ok.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

ridesarize said:


> the allprime i was considering was water based. But now I'm tossing around the xim uma urethanized acrylic I bought, kel bond, shellac or synthetic shellac.
> I never thought of kel-bond as a primer. I figured it was like peel stop.... for exteriors... go figure.


You want the kel-bond 287
Not the 285, which is rebadged peelbond.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

I have found that using BIN as a tack coat followed by a coat of Aqua Lock for its super smooth sanding leaves a great surface for s topcoat. BIN seals the tannins and the Aqua Lock fills the valleys between raised grains if any exist. Aqua Lock performs exactly like lacquer undercoater with out the lovely brain cell killing toxic vapors.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree, if your goals are to fill grain in a species like oak there are a few other products I use that work well. Usually do a sprayed grain filler that gets sanded when dry in between primer coats.


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## claudiui (Sep 15, 2013)

Best I ever used styx.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> I agree, if your goals are to fill grain in a species like oak there are a few other products I use that work well. Usually do a sprayed grain filler that gets sanded when dry in between primer coats.


I went online to find more info on the aqua lock and your write up on BP came up. I also searched for microfoaming in latex coatings earlier today and your article on BP for KA Plus came up! Well done sir!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I stumble around and after enough educated trial and error can come up with a good system. I take lots of what I read here on PT and put it to the test to see if we can make it work for us. I have some other products I have started using that I will be writing about first of the year. Mostly tools, safety equipment, and things like that. 

Biggest positive from using these products is turn around. I dropped a damaged a door from that job Friday morning. While the doors and drawers were getting installed I was able to sand, prime, and finish spray that door on site and it was completely hard by the time we were ready to install it. 

We were bucket talking while taking a break and have determined our system is really efficient now, any improvements will probably be minor.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

What is your spray able grain filler?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

ridesarize said:


> We used advance primer once that I recall. It was the job I posted in your cab thread lately. It was over c.v. I think, less likely lacquer. We sanded existing coat and all went well except finding minor adhesion problem when reassembling. Went good though. H.O. complained but them and builder specced it. I've used kelly moores hybrid primer a couple years ago and I didn't like how that sanded, in case anyone wanted to know...


We used 253 over sanded clear lacquer on the dark cabs in my cab thread without any adhesion issues. I guess to stick with my waterborne only approach, over CV, stix or another UMA would be the way to go then. For bare wood, or mdf, I would recommend advanced primer for its oil like (minimal grain raising) qualities. Again that's only if a complete waterborne system is desired.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> What is your spray able grain filler?


I have used the MLC fast dry paste thinned 50/50 and buffed method, as well as kem aqua 65p sprafil sanded.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Lambrecht said:


> I have found that using BIN as a tack coat followed by a coat of Aqua Lock for its super smooth sanding leaves a great surface for s topcoat. BIN seals the tannins and the Aqua Lock fills the valleys between raised grains if any exist. Aqua Lock performs exactly like lacquer undercoater with out the lovely brain cell killing toxic vapors.


Nice, now I want to try out some Aqua Lock! Still learning! Go Seahawks!!!!!


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## Paintuh4Life (May 20, 2009)

ridesarize said:


> I didn't see that and miller employee did not mention it. Is it still the red and white label? I saw the bin synthetic(red and white).. So you say same as bin? so you thinned with denatured?
> Thanks. And thank you all for input.


Yes, it's still in a red and white can labeled Allprime (Product #14315) It is the same as BIN and I do thin with denatured alcohol. And BTW, when we put it through an airless, we use about a 50/50 mix of ammonia and water to clean out the pump. It does a great job and it's much cheaper than alcohol.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Good tip on using ammonia to clean with. Its a big savings over dna.


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## harmonicarocks (Nov 29, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> Yes I have. I have used hundreds of gallons of it. But it can eat an existing clear coat, and latex does not adhere to it well, thoughts?


When I do a cabinet job, I usually take the doors to a local cabinet shop, and they sand and clean them, and prime them with some type of lacquer primer. I'm not sure what it is but I don't think it is an OTC product. I provide the topcoat product for them to spray the doors, which is usually a WB product. I have had good success with the BIN primer followed by 2 coats of WB for the strips and drawer fronts.


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