# solid stain question.



## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

I am bidding on a job that involves prepping and staining a house with a solid stain.

The previous stain is red, faded, 8 years old.

Obviously I will power wash it, and I will back roll the sprayed stain to insure penetration. Question is, should I scuff sand the entire surface?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I'd try to talk them out of using a solid.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Even if solid is already on it? Very few homes with semitrans look good for long without stripping the siding periodically adding high expense.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I have maintained wood sided (from rough sawn cedar to logs) for a awhile and have had no issues with maintenance coats. You're right that eventually they have to be stripped but that may be every 15-20 years. Penetrating semi-trans ils protect the wood and allow moisture migration. Film forming finishes cause rot and peel.

If someone already has a solid, they own it and are doomed to it. I couldn't tell from Dunbar's post if that is the case. I guess that is why he asked about scuffing it?


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

IT currently has a solid stain on it that *was* bright red. They do not want to change colour, but since it is 8 years old and visibly faded they want it redone.

My question was just inquiring whether I need to scuff sand the entire surface (5000+ Sqarefeet). My thoughts were that scuffing it would help the new stain penetrate better, however, that adds a couple days work considering the height and size of the house.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> Penetrating semi-trans ils protect the wood and allow moisture migration. Film forming finishes cause rot and peel.
> 
> If someone already has a solid, they own it and are doomed to it. I couldn't tell from Dunbar's post if that is the case. I guess that is why he asked about scuffing it?


 Totally agree, especially on vertical T&G cedar. I have seen the cedar completely rot behind a solid stain because it can't breath. Vapor barriers come into play, but that's another thread. Many people don't care for the look of the semi-trans especially in a color other than a light cedar or woodtone. They think it looks like it needs another coat. The solid looks like the picture in the magazine until it starts to fail and then they hate you, but once you've got it-you've got it. I don't think scuff sanding the entire exterior is necessary. Just get it clean whether it be by power wash(very light pressure) or by hand-my method of choice on wood siding. Bonding I don't believe will be your problem. I would be more concerned with trapped moisture behind the paint film with a solid stain if we are talking about vertical cedar. If it's other than vertical cedar it is not quite as problematic in my experience.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Dunbar Painting said:


> IT currently has a solid stain on it that *was* bright red. They do not want to change colour, but since it is 8 years old and visibly faded they want it redone.
> 
> My question was just inquiring whether I need to scuff sand the entire surface (5000+ Sqarefeet). My thoughts were that scuffing it would help the new stain penetrate better, however, that adds a couple days work considering the height and size of the house.


There is no real penetration with film forming coatings. You may get a better intercoat adhesion, but I would not bother. Use sodium metasilicate to wash (TSP substitute) and you will remove the oxidation and get a "liquid sanding" effect.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

CliffK said:


> Totally agree, especially on vertical T&G cedar. I have seen the cedar completely rot behind a solid stain because it can't breath. Vapor barriers come into play, but that's another thread. Many people don't care for the look of the semi-trans especially in a color other than a light cedar or woodtone. They think it looks like it needs another coat. The solid looks like the picture in the magazine until it starts to fail and then they hate you, but once you've got it-you've got it. I don't think scuff sanding the entire exterior is necessary. Just get it clean whether it be by power wash(very light pressure) or by hand-my method of choice on wood siding. Bonding I don't believe will be your problem. I would be more concerned with trapped moisture behind the paint film with a solid stain if we are talking about vertical cedar. If it's other than vertical cedar it is not quite as problematic in my experience.



There is no way to tell what kind of wood it is, as it was solid stained 8 years ago (when it was a new construction). 

I am trying to find a way to get the picture off googlemaps as I did not take a picture when I did the estimate. (since I am stupid)


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> There is no real penetration with film forming coatings. You may get a better intercoat adhesion, but I would not bother. Use sodium metasilicate to wash (TSP substitute) and you will remove the oxidation and get a "liquid sanding" effect.



Doing this also takes considerable time given the area... regardless there will be a couple days post pressure washing to properly prepare a surface which is receiving a solid stain.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Dunbar Painting said:


> Doing this also takes considerable time given the area... regardless there will be a couple days post pressure washing to properly prepare a surface which is receiving a solid stain.


Shoot me a pm. I could have a 3000 s/f house washed and prepped with chemical in 3 hrs.


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

This is the house.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

In a deep red like that. Arborcoat. Gonna be the best bet. The acrylic colorants will hold their color better.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Dunbar Painting said:


> I am bidding on a job that involves prepping and staining a house with a solid stain.
> 
> The previous stain is red, faded, 8 years old.
> 
> Obviously I will power wash it, and I will back roll the sprayed stain to insure penetration. Question is, should I scuff sand the entire surface?


Since it has been stained before,I'd probably sand all the boards with a palm sander {100 grit} and spray it with an acrylic paint {satin}...Of course I'd back brush it considering the size of the siding...A quick,light second coat sprayed wouldn't have to be brushed.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

No need to sand unless you need to feather failed areas. I would use SW woodscapes. Sorry NC, but it is one of four products that SW makes that I really love. It is a great product.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> No need to sand unless you need to feather failed areas. I would use SW woodscapes. Sorry NC, but it is one of four products that SW makes that I really love. It is a great product.


No argument, its decent stuff. For that particular color, Arborcoat wold probably be the better choice IMO.  the tints will make the biggest difference in that color.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

That was my only worry as well I will admit to never using a red. However pastels have done very well for me even yellows and oranges.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

That doesnt look like a solid from here. 

I love a-100 oil and woodscapes for a system over red/white cedar shingles. Never had failure but would have to agree with NC about Arborcoat on this one with the Red base. Make sure you clear it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> That's why your work only last 2 years and mine lasts 20+ years...


You obviously don't paint cedar shakes often if you would break out the sander and go to town.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> You obviously don't paint cedar shakes often if you would break out the sander and go to town.


That siding was not rough cedar...It was smooth wood siding,not shakes...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)




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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> That siding was not rough cedar...It was smooth wood siding,not shakes...


 Only half of it. :yes:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do get where Ken is coming from on not using solid color. But, around here I have not had the chance to take the maintenance of a semi-trans from the first job through 15-20 years. When I get to them, they typically are on the 2nd or 3rd paint job. The stain is usually uneven in color due to different exposures.

I do a lot of solid color stain on rough cedar and while it does not soak in like an oil semi-trans, it does penetrate more than paint. I notice on painted railings that they rot out quicker than solid acrylic stained railings, so there is more moisture breathability. Peeling is an issue only in limited areas (flat spots and the occasional problem fascia which is probably a house breathing issue. Maintenance is easier than the semi-trans finishes. Less mildew growth for certain. I think with semi-trans, it is more detrimental when people let them go longer between paint jobs than if a solid color is let go a little extra.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> That doesnt look like a solid from here.
> 
> I love a-100 oil and woodscapes for a system over red/white cedar shingles. Never had failure but would have to agree with NC about Arborcoat on this one with the Red base. Make sure you clear it.


No need to clear the solid, treat it like you would any other solid stain.

Oils are awesome, outside they tend to chalk, with dark colors even more so.


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

This may seem funny coming from me since i practiacally preach Benjamin Moore, but I've had really good results with Olympic brand solid stain the past two years. I would not hesitate to use it again. But, that said, I usually use it on houses where the customer already had a solid stain, is on a very tight budget, and doesn't mind being limited in their color choices. I think Olympic solid stain is about $159 for a 5-gallon here right now.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

briancreary said:


> This may seem funny coming from me since i practiacally preach Benjamin Moore, but I've had really good results with Olympic brand solid stain the past two years. I would not hesitate to use it again. But, that said, I usually use it on houses where the customer already had a solid stain, is on a very tight budget, and doesn't mind being limited in their color choices. I think Olympic solid stain is about $159 for a 5-gallon here right now.


Look at PPG Sunproof Solid Stain if the customer is on a budget. Should be in the neighborhood of $115 +/- per 5.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Look at PPG Sunproof Solid Stain if the customer is on a budget. Should be in the neighborhood of $115 +/- per 5.


NC, depending on the color, I'd be leary of the SunProof. Even using acryclic colorants instead of UTCs, we've had some pretty severe fading issues on some projects. On the biggest project, PPG has totally let us down and we'll be re-doing several of the walls with ArborCoat this spring to see how it does.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Gough said:


> NC, depending on the color, I'd be leary of the SunProof. Even using acryclic colorants instead of UTCs, we've had some pretty severe fading issues on some projects. On the biggest project, PPG has totally let us down and we'll be re-doing several of the walls with ArborCoat this spring to see how it does.


I need a product to compete with woodscapes. Sunproof is it. I wouldn't even put Arborcoat in he same category, different technology.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> I need a product to compete with woodscapes. Sunproof is it. I wouldn't even put Arborcoat in he same category, different technology.


Fair enough. The only issue that we've had with the SunProof is color retention in darker colors.

We're sure hoping that ArborCoat is the answer on this particular project. It has some of the most involved "access issues" (=scaffolding) that we've had to deal with in 40+ years: steep lot, long runs (100+ ft), and elaborate, tall gables. When we finished it the last time, the whole crew was hoping that I'd retire before it needed to be re-coated.


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