# M&F Enamel



## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

Good Day,

I am in the process of restoring an old John Deere tractor for a client. When the machine got dropped off, it came with two gallon containers of Mobil Chemical Company M&F Enamel. Color Emerald Green 20-G-132. The owner claims this a JD formulation and is no less than 25 years old. The cans are unopened and in very good shape. Coating for this project will not occur until mid to late spring next year. The owner asked for me to inquire whether this material is still useable. Apparently he has some nostalgic connectoin with this stuff I guess.

I am dying to open one of these things up and see what the deal is. However, if it is still in decent shape i am afraid that there is no putting the lid back on expecting it to be ok 6 months or so from now.

There doesnt appear to be significant settling out as it feels pretty balanced after a few shakes of the cans. In a previous industrial spray painting life, even the fresh coatings stayed settled ubtil you gave them a good mixing, as you can tell by the balance. These can do say "contains lead" (of course).

Several weeks ago I contacted the Mobil Chemical Company to inquire about legacy products - no reply to date.

Question: who or what is a good resource for old industrial coatings like this? IF the stuff turns out to be in good shape, I would need info on the proper thinners and the like if it could be sprayed on. If not and still in decent shape it can be brushed on the underside and other such places where it wouldnt matter i guess.

Anyone have any thoughts? Thanx.


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## Retired From Paint (Jun 12, 2011)

That was good paint then but nothing special other than it is lead based
Gloss alkyd enamel, the only thing nostalgic is the color. It might be still good. Take it to a professional paint store and have it shaken then have them do a draw down, see how long it takes to dry if it does dry in a reasonable amount of time say 12 to 24 hrs. after 48 hrs. check the gloss for a nice even sheen, then if you get this far scratch it to see if you have a nice hard finish. If you think it still might meet your needs, brush some out on some steel using the method and primer of your choice.
Put it outside and wait and see after a few months, show the sample to your customer and let him decide and get it in writing (his approval.)
It is a little work for some $25.00 -$35.00 a gallon paint. It should be no problem to get J.D. green at any industrial paint or farm supply store, but I have no idea where you are from, you have a blank profile , but do check the color as they can vary a little, have your customer approve it in writing.

Best Reguards

P.S. the paint is to old to just stir it with a stick, you could use a power mixer for around 10 min.


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## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

Get it in writing! Sounds like some sage advice.

I believe the gentleman who has the tractor feels the paint could be better quality than what is available today. I am sure that if one spends the $ today then one can get a paint that is equal if not superior to this M&F.

I am amazed at the durability of the coating on this 1966 machine though. Aside from being faded, the loss of paint or rust is because it was abraded off, or long term fuel contact, or something along those lines. 

Good suggestion on letting a sample weather for several months. I am in northern maine so it would get a run for its money.

You mentioned a primer of my choice. I take that to mean that there shouldnt be a compatability issue between new formulation primers and old formulations paint. I guess I can see this. The bigger question would be thinning - what compound to use? For a test it is moot. I do not have a good sense of what type of thinners were used for lead containing coatings.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond. I just may take my chances on cracking this open now and commence a test.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

pvdiag said:


> I believe the gentleman who has the tractor feels the paint could be better quality than what is available today. I am sure that if one spends the $ today then one can get a paint that is equal if not superior to this M&F.


Then you should simply educate him. Why risk it for little to no benefit? In writing or not if it fails you did it. I doubt he would mention that he went against your recommendations when he's bitching about it to everyone. :no:


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## Retired From Paint (Jun 12, 2011)

Hope it works out, but your customer is correct, in a standard alkyd enamel of today vs the old school lead alkyd enamel the lead wins
hands down that stuff is so durable it still performing today. With out
lead 8-10 years max. Color fade starts the day you put it on.
Todays performers are 2-3 part urethanes. I might suggest an epoxy
primer after your sandblast, not the best but pretty close.
I just guessing but your paint most likely just thins with good mineral spirits. Also to speed the dry time maybe try synthetic reducer, be carefull
with the reduction, guess you need to test it reduced if your planning to reduce to meet your spray needs.

Best reguards


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## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

ah - speed the dry time. My spraying experience is on large flat type surfaces like structural steel and carbon-mastic coatings. Tractors have all sorts of corners, bosses, and angles that have runs written all over it.

Some of the parts will be done after they have been removed from the machine, which will help in the applying and drying areas.

To start this process i am going to use a brush or sponge on an old casting that I have, after priming of course. If it sets up at these types of thicknesses, I would be confident on a typical spray layer. Like I said earlier, I could burn alot of this coating on the underside and hidden parts with a brush where the finish is less important.

First order of business is to make the machine mechanically and electrically sound. This leaves me ample time to develop a coating strategy.

As Gib45 points out there really isnt much benefit here - certainly in the near term. If this paint is still good, its benefit would not be realized until 10+ years down the road, where its inherent robustness would take over.

Once a can is opened and it pans out to be useable, I believe I will shoot for a compromise with the owner. Brush the lead alkyd on where appropriate underneath and such. Go with a modern enamel for the rest. There are some logical breakpoints in the housings that would be hard to notice.

Hopefully I will get a can open over the next 2 weeks and see what is there. If there is anything to report, I will be sure to do so.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Respirator even if spraying outdoors.


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## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

Respirator for just opening the can!


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah, Im too young to have ever used lead paint... seems it would be quite dangerous spraying as it would all be airborne... Would containment and RRP apply?


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## woi2ld (Oct 1, 2011)

i dont know how many times customers hav handed me the paint and said ' this is supposed to be what they used in the olden days ' ive done it and its not wat they remembered over and over again till i learned my lesson. Take the paint out of the can , match the color and use your favorite industrial or automotive paint and ther happy every time. They say that's xactly it!!!!! I've used ther paint , seen the sad look on ther face when its done. Compared to using your own two component industrial gloss makes alllll the difference in the world , and , a return customer with freinds to boot.


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## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

I have talked the tractor owner out of using this paint where it matters. If it is any good, it can be used on the implements or on the underside of the machine.


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

25 year old paint would not contain lead since the lead ban occurred around 1978 or so. If this paint does contain lead then it would be 30 + years old. There's probably nothing wrong with the paint but why use enamel when there is much better coatings to use now that will hold there color and gloss much better now. I see that you have convinced the owner to use a different paint now, I just had to comment on the lead issue. 25 year old paint would not contain lead since this would have been past the 1978 lead ban In coatings.


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## Retired From Paint (Jun 12, 2011)

Benny you are 100% correct with the date 1978 ban of lead coatings.

To be exact the ban was to mfg. lead based coatings, it was OK to sell
lead based coatings after 1978 intill all stocks were gone. The paint companys had known the ban was comming and with no good replacment
for the industrial side of things, they stocked years of inventory to paint
equipment and such. 

Best Reguards


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

This is true. I would just highly doubt that the enamel that he has is lead based. If you could pull the batch or lot number and if Mobile still had the records which I doubt, they could tell the exact date of manufacture. But since the coating isn't going to be used, then it a mute point. As far as the danger of applying such said paint. None no more of applying any paint that is applied today. Your not going to get any lead exposure unless your drinking the stuff. The danger is when it dries and you grind it into a powder. Just use normal respiratory protection such as a carbon filter for organic vapors with at least a P-99 particulate filter installed and you'll be fine. You would also want to wear something like a Tyvek suit, gloves and a spray sock and throw these item's away when done. I hope the project turns out great. Need to send some pictures of the in process being done.


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## pvdiag (Oct 19, 2011)

According to the cans - the paint contains lead. So produced before 1978, sold when? who only knows. The tractor owner recalls this being at least 25 years old. he could be off 10 years! After reading the last couple of posts, my guess now on age is close to the run up on the ban, when awareness of the issue forced the disclosure on the labels, but before the law was enacted. 34-36 years old?

there is still plenty of work that needs to be done before prep and paint gets serious. i am very curious to look inside a can, but need some time to set aside to fiddle with this. from what i have been reading, there is a good likelihood the coating is still ok. this whole "old paint" thing has taken on a life of its own locally and it is to the point where it has to be used or else all manner of folks will be disappointed. i have even had an offer locally to sell it to them. ahhh, the magic and allure of old industrial lead based paint!

the rig is not in a very good location to take photos, but i will be snapping photos at some point as part of the restoration process.


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## woi2ld (Oct 1, 2011)

@pvdiag , i know of two different paints specifically for tractor and implements . you may wanna check ther websites . I think VanSickle has allll the colors of the past tractors on ther site. I got lucky and scored a couple gallons of VanSickle Super Premium Clear Coat on a clearance shelf for $7 bux and change , i know it goes for over $40 a gallon. I think the 'Valspar tractor and implement' paint may be a little better , as it is a multi-component paint as compared to the VanSickle old school laquer. just thot i'd mention it.....i got a crazy hankrn' for tractors here lately . I also picked up a model #12 bush hog here for $100 bux , pure red oxide , ima b in your shoes here soon. @ painter 213 , can u go here and tell us what your avatar is , i wonder if i got it rite  http://www.painttalk.com/f14/your-avatar-why-15948/


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## woi2ld (Oct 1, 2011)

funny , i just noticed it says enamel on their can , but at the bottom of the can of clear it says 'Acrylic Laquer' lol


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

pvdiag said:


> According to the cans - the paint contains lead. So produced before 1978, sold when? who only knows. The tractor owner recalls this being at least 25 years old. he could be off 10 years! After reading the last couple of posts, my guess now on age is close to the run up on the ban, when awareness of the issue forced the disclosure on the labels, but before the law was enacted. 34-36 years old?
> 
> there is still plenty of work that needs to be done before prep and paint gets serious. i am very curious to look inside a can, but need some time to set aside to fiddle with this. from what i have been reading, there is a good likelihood the coating is still ok. this whole "old paint" thing has taken on a life of its own locally and it is to the point where it has to be used or else all manner of folks will be disappointed. i have even had an offer locally to sell it to them. ahhh, the magic and allure of old industrial lead based paint!
> 
> the rig is not in a very good location to take photos, but i will be snapping photos at some point as part of the restoration process.


 
Well then there's LEAD in that thar paint then!! That is some OLD paint! But it's still probably usable though. Kept sealed up the solvent and oils haven't evaporated or dried up. Probably thick on the bottom but should still mix up with a mixing blade on a drill. I just used some 12 year old Ameron Amershield the other day here at the house to paint a roll up door on a old van box that I use for storage. Mixed up and worked just fine. Have fun with the restoration and enjoy using some old paint that you just don't see much of anymore. :thumbsup:


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## painter213 (Nov 5, 2008)

woi2ld said:


> @ painter 213 , can u go here and tell us what your avatar is , i wonder if i got it rite  http://www.painttalk.com/f14/your-avatar-why-15948/


done!!


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