# So how do y'all go about doing estimates?



## SergioThePainter (Jun 18, 2017)

I tend to just take a look, think about how long the project will take me and give a fair price. I tend to underbid. 
But it seems when I give a number that I think is priced reasonable I usually get ignored.
I live/work in south Florida and I feel that there are too many "painters" out there working for nothing. 
I see adds on Craigslist offering $50 a room. How is that even possible?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SergioThePainter said:


> I tend to just take a look, thankbsboht hos long the project will take me and give a fair price. I tend to underbid.
> But it seems when I give a number that I think is priced reasonable I usually get ignored.
> I live/work in south Florida and I feel that there are too many "painters" out there working for nothing.
> I see adds on Craigslist offering $50 a room. How is that even possible?


It's not. That simply gets em' in the door and then they hit the HO with add ons and up charges.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SergioThePainter said:


> I tend to just take a look, think about how long the project will take me and give a fair price. I tend to underbid.
> But it seems when I give a number that I think is priced reasonable I usually get ignored.
> I live/work in south Florida and I feel that there are too many "painters" out there working for nothing.
> I see adds on Craigslist offering $50 a room. How is that even possible?


That's exactly how I used to estimate side jobs. Complicate it with family and friends looking for a bargain at the expense of your back, and you've entered into one of the most charitable contributions known to man.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I used to use the old eye ball method too, with a little bit of "what do I think this person will pay" mixed in. 

Now though, it's all based on footage. 
X amount for each square foot of wall space or siding, linear foot of trim, X amount per window or door, etc.. 

Once you know your numbers it's so much easier and more consistent that way. 


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I hate giving estimates yet I know they are the lifeblood of our business. I did it wrong for so many years and I'm sure I still do it wrong, but, part of my problem is living in a depressed economic area so hitting my numbers can be difficult. I find that if I crank up my estimates by 20% or so to get myself what I think I really should earn, I end up sitting at home with little or no work. I'm a knucklehead for sure, but I would rather be busy all year round by being slightly underpriced, than stuck at home half the time because my numbers don't coincide with the economics of where I live.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> I hate giving estimates yet I know they are the lifeblood of our business. I did it wrong for so many years and I'm sure I still do it wrong, but, part of my problem is living in a depressed economic area so hitting my numbers can be difficult. I find that if I crank up my estimates by 20% or so to get myself what I think I really should earn, I end up sitting at home with little or no work. I'm a knucklehead for sure, but I would rather be busy all year round by being slightly underpriced, than stuck at home half the time because my numbers don't coincide with the economics of where I live.


50% of somethin is better than 100% of nuthin sometimes. Been there, done that. Glad our economy is a bit stronger....but I bet you don't have to sit in traffic 1.5 hrs each way most days...:/ Seattle traffic SUCKS.

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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> 50% of somethin is better than 100% of nuthin sometimes. Been there, done that. Glad our economy is a bit stronger....but I bet you don't have to sit in traffic 1.5 hrs each way most days...:/ Seattle traffic SUCKS.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk




Yeah, if I still worked locally I would still be low balling as necessary to stay busy. I drive 1 to 1 1/2 hours each way to work most days. Not so much because of traffic, but just to get the area with the kind of market I want to work in. 

I could, and may some day, move to the tri cities, but then my living expenses would double at least. It's a trade off I guess, living in the country and working in the city. 


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Ive always did my bidding visually. In 23 years on my own Ive always did well. Best thing I ever did was any job $1,000 or more, add a hundred to two hundred dollars for things that get overlooked. Tape, plastic, patching material, caulk, an so on. When I first started out I always forgot to add those things in.


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yeah, if I still worked locally I would still be low balling as necessary to stay busy. I drive 1 to 1 1/2 hours each way to work most days. Not so much because of traffic, but just to get the area with the kind of market I want to work in.
> 
> I could, and may some day, move to the tri cities, but then my living expenses would double at least. It's a trade off I guess, living in the country and working in the city.
> 
> ...



I do the same exact thing. I drive 45 min to 1.5 hours for work daily. I can't afford to work in the town where I live. Usually when my phone rings and its someone local wanting a bid 9 times out of 10 I know I won't get it. Lucky for me what's said to be the best recreational lake in the United states is 45 min away. I have customers from St Louis, Kansas City, and Chicago. They don't mind paying for a quality job. I probably do 6-8 jobs a year in my own town.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Sorry, but I typically have to drive 5-10 minutes tops to my jobs. Okay, okay, maybe 15 every now and then - if I hit a light or two wrong.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> 50% of somethin is better than 100% of nuthin sometimes. Been there, done that. Glad our economy is a bit stronger....but I bet you don't have to sit in traffic 1.5 hrs each way most days...:/ Seattle traffic SUCKS.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I would bet, not compared to DC:vs_shocked:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I charge 15% more for trips to the city's(DC and or Baltimore) and still just eyeball and give the estimate and I do OK. I am not getting rich but am comfortable.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I used to use the old eye ball method too, with a little bit of "what do I think this person will pay" mixed in.
> 
> Now though, it's all based on footage.
> X amount for each square foot of wall space or siding, linear foot of trim, X amount per window or door, etc..
> ...


Would you be able to provide those rates on your web site for internet shoppers searching for a painting contractor? And provided the online customer met all the criteria of your square foot formula, do you think it would help secure customers while screening them at the same time?

The reason why I ask is, it doesn't seem popular for PT contractors to have a square foot price formula. Like you, I think it would make it easier to estimate.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I usually price a job by square footage, which seems to be a rather unpopular method here. Any sizeable job I'm going to measure anyway for determining the amount of paint to be used, so I figure I might as well use those numbers to come up with a labor price as well. Yes, I consider profit and overhead as well.

I'm not keen on advertising those numbers, however. Sometimes I measure through windows and door openings and come up with a number that covers the price for painting walls, doors, and trim, sometimes I figure lineal feet for trim, sometimes not. Sometimes I add so much per door. It sort of depends upon how much or little time I have to spend moving things away from where I need to paint, and how much prep work needs to be done prior to painting.

It's all just math, no matter how you look at it. I know some here get real technical about this. I think I would lean more that way if I had a bunch of employees and significant overhead.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Would you be able to provide those rates on your web site for internet shoppers searching for a painting contractor? And provided the online customer met all the criteria of your square foot formula, do you think it would help secure customers while screening them at the same time?
> 
> The reason why I ask is, it doesn't seem popular for PT contractors to have a square foot price formula. Like you, I think it would make it easier to estimate.


It might make it easier to estimate but the client certainly does not need to know the rates.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> _Would you be able to provide those rates on your web site for internet shoppers searching for a painting contractor? And provided the online customer met all the criteria of your square foot formula, do you think it would help secure customers while screening them at the same time?_
> 
> The reason why I ask is, it doesn't seem popular for PT contractors to have a square foot price formula. Like you, I think it would make it easier to estimate.


Boy CA, you really aren't going to let it go are you? 

Maybe I missed it, but back in our earlier debate, when I asked how YOU would go about doing the above in a manner that would actually be useful to a potential customer, I don't believe I ever did see an answer from you.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Would you be able to provide those rates on your web site for internet shoppers searching for a painting contractor? And provided the online customer met all the criteria of your square foot formula, do you think it would help secure customers while screening them at the same time?
> 
> The reason why I ask is, it doesn't seem popular for PT contractors to have a square foot price formula. Like you, I think it would make it easier to estimate.




In theory yes, though we don't do that at the present time unless specifically asked to do so by a potential client. And that hasn't happened very often. 

This pricing structure is still kinda new to me, but I like it. Years ago I remember having this same type of conversations here with guys like Straight_lines and VP, and being on the other side of it. 

I couldn't imagine how I could disregard my own "feel" for the job in favor of a cold square foot price. I was so used to judging bids by what I thought I could do, vs what I thought the people wanted (quality level) and what they could pay. 

A little old lady job was different than a job for a fairly affluent local farmer, and different still from a job for a rich person wanting work done on their summer home on the lake. 

My closing rate has went down for sure, but moving to a bigger market and advertising more has made it worth it. 

Seems to me like it's eventually going to be necessary to be able to provide accurate online quotes to compete in larger, higher margin markets. 

Last week I had to quote a higher end residential construction project from blueprints. First time I had done it. 

In the past I've had chances to bid on stuff like that, but passed. How would I know what to charge without knowing all the intangible variables we think of when actually looking at a job? 

It stressed me out. The price I came up with on footage seemed high, but it was what it was, and we got the job. 

If I could credit my experience here at PT with anything it would be the idea that you shouldn't undersell yourself. Several old time members that have impacted me stressed that, and I'm finally trying to listen. 


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> It might make it easier to estimate but the client certainly does not need to know the rates.


I disagree. In an era where people need to know everything, including prices, providing that information is what online shopping was designed for. Why even spend time fiddling with online marketing if you can't provide prices. You might as well stick with door flyers.

Being all mysterious about rates is so 1980's. In my opinion. I don't see the value in it other than to adjust prices when it's convenient. And if I were to run a business, I would absolutely establish a square foot base rate that was formulated by averaging my, or my team's, production capabilities and overhead, while leaving room to adjust for variables. Pretty simple once it's dialed in. There's a constant to that approach that leaves little room for interpretation. But I also think it takes confidence to commit to unit measures of pricing. Particularly in the painting trade.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I disagree. In an era where people need to know everything, including prices, providing that information is what online shopping was designed for. Why even spend time fiddling with online marketing if you can't provide prices. You might as well stick with door flyers.
> 
> Being all mysterious about rates is so 1980's. In my opinion. I don't see the value in it other than to adjust prices when it's convenient. And if I were to run a business, I would absolutely establish a square foot base rate that was formulated by averaging my, or my team's, production capabilities and overhead, while leaving room to adjust for variables. Pretty simple once it's dialed in. There's a constant to that approach that leaves little room for interpretation. But I also think it takes confidence to commit to unit measures of pricing. Particularly in the painting trade.


But it's this part, " ... while leaving room to adjust for variables.", which, IMO, blows up the concept of being transparent with one's rates. It's easy to throw "variables" out there as if they are a trifle but as anyone who bids jobs knows, the devil is in the details. So why bother to post rates at all if the variables could easily and significantly alter the bottom line?

Ex., suppose I had a square foot rate of $X.00 but then went to look at a job which had extremely heavy texture on the walls, something that can not only affect the time to paint them, but also the amount of product required. Would I then apply a different square foot rate than the one I've posted? Add on a surcharge? Would all the other possible variables and their prices that can pop up on jobs also need to be posted? What if someone wanted me to use a quality mid-range paint but another wanted me to use a top of the line product? Would there need to be separate square foot rates posted for each? For every possible product I might use? And we haven't even touched upon factoring the cost of baseboard trim, window casings, doors, crown moldings, etc, into a job where they might need to be considered. 

Honestly, the complexity of trying to do something like establish complete transparency boggles my mind. But then my mind is easily boggled.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Plus there are thousands of "variables". No thanks.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

What could you provide the online shopper with that would help them determine if you're in or out of the ball park, without having to waste time with phone calls, texts, emails, and appointments that may or may not yield a positive result?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> Plus there are thousands of "variables". No thanks.


With the exception of wall covering (since it is a specialty in my opinion) just how many variables will a seasoned painting contractor come acrosss over their career, that couldn't be averaged into a basic unit measure? 

And is it really that odd to consider maximizing the potential and convenience of a venue that was designed for online shoppers by providing what every shopper is looking at besides the item itself, price, or at least an estimation?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> With the exception of wall covering (since it is a specialty in my opinion) just how many variables will a seasoned painting contractor come acrosss over their career, that couldn't be averaged into a basic unit measure?
> 
> 
> 
> And is it really that odd to consider maximizing the potential and convenience of a venue that was designed for online shoppers by providing what every shopper is looking at besides the item itself, price, or at least an estimation?




Maybe CA's true calling was to be a lawyer. He is unrelenting.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Maybe CA's true calling was to be a lawyer. He is unrelenting. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess I can't help pointing out the obvious. I mean, I get that the traditional way an exchange would occur between a homeowner and service provider, benefitted more with a folksier approach without all the sophistication reserved for corporate style organizations. And that may very well benefit those in a smaller market with less options for residents.

But things move at a much faster pace these days given the enormous access at our finger tips. There's no reason a painting process can't be crunched into a unit measure and offered to a generation who may not appreciate folksy. Or even know what that is.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

How many painters will give an estimate over the phone? Virtually none - and that's even after getting some information from the caller. Why not? Because those variables are critical for factoring in. 

CA, have you ever been responsible for actually doing bids on residential repaints? I mean really taking all of the factors of a job into account and coming up with the number the customer will recieve? I can't believe you ever have or you wouldn't so lightly discount the impact variables have on the typical bid process or how many there truly are.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> How many painters will give an estimate over the phone? Virtually none - and that's even after getting some information from the caller. Why not? Because those variables are critical for factoring in.
> 
> CA, have you ever been responsible for actually doing bids on residential repaints? I mean really taking all of the factors of a job into account and coming up with the number the customer will recieve? I can't believe you ever have or you wouldn't so lightly discount the impact variables have on the typical bid process or how many there truly are.


I've estimated far too many residential paint jobs using the intuitive method rather than a calculated method. And the results were always the same. Hurried, uncertain, and exhausting. 

I could have simplified my estimates and made them more accurate if I had recorded my production history and gathered it to formulate a unit measure based on averaging and variables. It really can and should have been done in my case. But I was too lazy.

Bottom line, I didn't have to have "my" numbers because I was performing work on the side. Had I been responsible for estimating jobs in a full time capacity, you can be certain I would have a base rate per unit measure. Particularly, if I were in the field also.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

ive been on my own for a year and have just been eyeballing (mostly repaints). estimating has been my biggest challenge, measuring i could see for commercial but i agree there are too many factors in residential repaints. herritage homes have killed me, the trim takes forever!

ive been thinking about flat pricing pieces of a house, each piece with 3 prices depending on size coats and difficulty

two coat prices:

small bedroom 260 add trim 60

med bedroom 300 add trim 80

large bedroom 350 add trim 100

easy stairwell 300 add trim 80

im curious what you guys think of that method, i realize you might run into the same problem as measuring but its quick and youre not really grabbing prices out of the sky.

exterior im pretty well lost with prices when you get on these bigger places. no idea what fascia and exterior windows cost


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> ive been on my own for a year and have just been eyeballing (mostly repaints). estimating has been my biggest challenge, measuring i could see for commercial but i agree there are too many factors in residential repaints. herritage homes have killed me, the trim takes forever!
> 
> ive been thinking about flat pricing pieces of a house, each piece with 3 prices depending on size coats and difficulty
> 
> ...


As an online shopper looking for a painter, I would greatly appreciate those unit measures. And once you had me hooked on what range of pricing I could expect, I would then look forward to navigating your web site further for customer reviews, pictures of jobs, blogs, links, and history about your company. 

It would be unlikely I'd want to spend any of my valuable time with your web site without having gotten the prices out of the way.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The difference between the old twenty pound phone book we used to use for our service needs, and the internet, is the social factor. Today's small businesses are providing personality and interest to their customers in a way the Yellow Page ad on page 1,187 could only dream of. And I believe many internet shoppers are influenced by what they know about a service provider rather than simply cost. But no one is going to care about a business without some honesty up front in my opinion. This is how I believe millenials think. And aren't they the new market demographic?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

If you post your process, its much harder to sell yourself to people getting lower bids. If people call me and want bedroom walls painted, I tell them a general price, just like Vylum does, but even if I know what it will cost, I want to talk to them face to face and explain my methods, and products, and show them that they will be better off hiring me for a higher price, than all the hacks. Obviously, Im not driving for an hour and a half to bid a two bedroom walls only job, when I can tell them 6-7 hundred or so over the phone, but any reasonably big job, I want that face to face sale, cuz Im not the cheapest. If I give a price before meeting them, they'll just go with the cheaper guy. 

Also, my price varies on how busy I am.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> If you post your process, its much harder to sell yourself to people getting lower bids. If people call me and want bedroom walls painted, I tell them a general price, just like Vylum does, but even if I know what it will cost, I want to talk to them face to face and explain my methods, and products, and show them that they will be better off hiring me for a higher price, than all the hacks. Obviously, Im not driving for an hour and a half to bid a two bedroom walls only job, when I can tell them 6-7 hundred or so over the phone, but any reasonably big job, I want that face to face sale, cuz Im not the cheapest. If I give a price before meeting them, they'll just go with the cheaper guy.
> 
> Also, my price varies on how busy I am.


What if you had an "Enter Here" button on your web site page just below the last item on your suggested price list that offered all the reasons to hire you and not a low bidder. Things like:

1. Beautiful pics of before and after projects

2. A blog about your company's culture and it's people

3. Information about the painting process and the training your people receive

4. Customer reviews

5. Community events your company is involved with

And unless you are a national painting company with a wide reach, your company profile will resonate with shoppers within your service area.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> What if you had an "Enter Here" button on your web site page just below the last item on your suggested price list that offered all the reasons to hire you and not a low bidder. Things like:
> 
> 1. Beautiful pics of before and after projects
> 
> ...


I think most outfits that have websites already have many of the things you've listed above. Typically, the consumer is still left looking at a score of such sites more or less reading the same stuff on each - none of which end up giving them a definitive reason to hire one over the other.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I think most outfits that have websites already have many of the things you've listed above. Typically, the consumer is still left looking at a score of such sites more or less reading the same stuff on each - none of which end up giving them a definitive reason to hire one over the other.


But do they provide prices? And before someone posts the $99.00 per room example, I'm talking about prices in the competitive range that contractors here at Paint Talk, like to consider themselves in.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> If you post your process, its much harder to sell yourself to people getting lower bids. If people call me and want bedroom walls painted, I tell them a general price, just like Vylum does, but even if I know what it will cost, I want to talk to them face to face and explain my methods, and products, and show them that they will be better off hiring me for a higher price, than all the hacks. Obviously, Im not driving for an hour and a half to bid a two bedroom walls only job, when I can tell them 6-7 hundred or so over the phone, but any reasonably big job, I want that face to face sale, cuz Im not the cheapest. If I give a price before meeting them, they'll just go with the cheaper guy.
> 
> Also, my price varies on how busy I am.


Did you mean prices? Because providing information on the process often sells a job for the competent contractor. At least that's what's been mentioned here numerous times.



> *Vylum-* If people call me and want bedroom walls painted, I tell them a general price, just like Vylum does, but even if I know what it will cost, I want to talk to them face to face and explain my methods, and products, and show them that they will be better off hiring me for a higher price, than all the hacks.


Do you have a web site? And wouldn't providing that price information and methods on the internet just lead to a visit anyways to confirm the job meets all of the criteria of your rates? And isn't that a good screening tool?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CA,

I know we've beat this horse dead a couple of times already, but...

Listing prices could easily become a point of contention. Without knowing the amount of prep work that needs to be done prior to painting, and the level of finish the customer seeks, how can I know that x amount of money per square feet satisfies my needs and draws in a paying customer? I just don't think a one size fits all approach is viable. 

Oh, the crown moulding is 12 feet up in the air. They want all the shelving removed from the closets, holes filled and textured to match the walls. And it turns out there are 75 holes per closet to deal with. None of this was mentioned when the customer described the job to me. There are a Zillion blinds and valances to mess with, or there aren't any. How do I list prices for all these possible contingencies?

There would have to be a disclaimer on the website basically stating "prices subject to change depending upon x, y, and z". And there would likely be a need for a very detailed spreadsheet for the customer to fill out, which could come across as daunting and a deal killer.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I have a gut feeling some of the heavy hitters on here could do it and thrive, as they have their numbers locked down colder than a witch in menopause. I just see it as a potential trouble maker. I can hear it now. "You said on your website that it would cost x amount per room. And now you are telling me that after you have seen the walls, it is going to cost x plus y."

Too much possibility that I'm going to short-change myself or the customer is going to feel ripped off.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SemiproJohn said:


> CA,
> 
> I know we've beat this horse dead a couple of times already, but...
> 
> ...


Well stated.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> But do they provide prices? And before someone posts the $99.00 per room example, I'm talking about prices in the competitive range that contractors here at Paint Talk, like to consider themselves in.


No, they typically don't - and why do you think that is? Likely for the very reasons Semipro and I have pointed out.

Again, I would like to see an example of how you would actually go about doing so while also taking into account *all* of the variables that can accompany a typical job. Because without those factored in you are basically giving someone a worthless number.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

This whole thread reminds me of a guy who doesn't have any kids but likes to tell his friends what he would do "If it were my kid". Well it's my kid and I'm doing the best I know how. When you have your own kids you can do it any way you want.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SemiproJohn said:


> CA,
> 
> I know we've beat this horse dead a couple of times already, but...
> 
> ...


The risks seem low in comparison to having an actual buyer on the line.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Vylum said:


> ive been on my own for a year and have just been eyeballing (mostly repaints). estimating has been my biggest challenge, measuring i could see for commercial but i agree there are too many factors in residential repaints. herritage homes have killed me, the trim takes forever!
> 
> ive been thinking about flat pricing pieces of a house, each piece with 3 prices depending on size coats and difficulty
> 
> ...


I am not going to argue with the man form California anymore but I will say that those prices for the trim work seem pretty low to me. It almost always takes me longer to do all the trim in a room than the walls.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

chrisn said:


> I am not going to argue with the man form California anymore but I will say that those prices for the trim work seem pretty low to me. It almost always takes me longer to do all the trim in a room than the walls.


I could never make it with those prices. They're rediculious, in any market imo. I guess if you're a shredder ya don't mind working for free sometimes?

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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the majority of us on here do not have the kind of web traffic that would even make a difference whether or not the prices were posted. 

Ranking on the first page is near impossible for a mid to large sized city. And if you're not on the first page you might as well be on the last. The big boys have it locked up. 

So posting prices sounds all fine and dandy but for the majority of painters it would be a waste of time and effort because no one will ever even see it. Maybe a referral will check out your page before calling but those aren't who you'd want to target with published prices. I'd imagine that would work best on cold customers. 

Here's my local Google search and I bet it's the same for the rest of the country. Maybe two local companies, a couple franchises, and lead services/review sites. No matter what you do those big guys are going to rule the searchs and nothing will change that. 

The one and only reason why Im on the first page is because I've had my website since the internet first started. Even with that it's still a struggle and a lot of work keeping it there. 

What I'm trying to say is this whole argument is for nothing. 98% of painting companies are getting there calls from referrals, print advertising, internet lead generation services , and maybe some social media. Not from people clicking on their website.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Idk, I can see and appreciate CA's take on this both as an experienced executor of coatings application jobs and as consumer. 

I spent most of my career doing ultra nuanced bidding. Looking back I think the primary reason for that is that I always afraid to be too high and not get the job. Even when I was booked out for months, I tended to look for ways to save the customer money. 

It feels so liberating now to basically say, this is what I offer and this is how much it costs. 

The details, like how many stress cracks there are in the drywall, or how bad the caulking at the crown molding is (by the way do they want that fixed?) aren't as important anymore. Prices are at a point where even on a bad job, we'll make wages. If it happens to be a normal job, or better yet an easy one, we make bank. 

All that push and pull of trying to gauge a customers expectations and worrying about the details has been replaced by a few minutes with a tape measure. 

Now it's true that I'm almost never booked months in advance anymore, and we bid a lot more jobs than we get. But I won't go back to essentially haggling prices in my own mind trying to please everyone and score every job that comes along unless I absolutely have to. 

We have one stipulation in our contract about price increases. That relates to excessive drywall repair. 

I certainly don't mean to knock anyone who bids the way I always did. There will likely always be a place for the respected, home town painter. I used to be that, and there was a lot of satisfaction in being in demand all the time and wondering how I would ever get all the work done. 

But I feel like the best thing I ever did was listen to some people here who said repeatedly if your booked out months in advance, your too cheap. 


I also agree with CA that internet pricing is the wave of the future even in our trade. Especially in more urban markets. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> I am not going to argue with the man form California anymore but I will say that those prices for the trim work seem pretty low to me. It almost always takes me longer to do all the trim in a room than the walls.


And there's in lies the real reason painters don't like to publicize rates. Too many people ready to say it's too low.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Do all of you have Jay on "ignore"?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the majority of us on here do not have the kind of web traffic that would even make a difference whether or not the prices were posted.
> 
> Ranking on the first page is near impossible for a mid to large sized city. And if you're not on the first page you might as well be on the last. The big boys have it locked up.
> 
> ...


You made my point. There are really no risks if you know your numbers and are confident enough to publicize them.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Do all of you have Jay on "ignore"?


The thing I like the most about Josh's posts is that he is always open to other's point of views.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PT began as a social media venue that allowed painters to share what was otherwise coveted information. Pricing being the Holy Grail of them all. Everyone gets so excited about prices because as soon as someone posts a price, bam, there's always someone right there who says "Wow, how do you even make a living at those prices?" Or, "Yea right, you make $100.00 per hour." As if posting an individual's prices is even relevant to members as a whole. Are we forgetting that even though we may be part of a social media community of tradesmen, we're no where near to being in the same community. What do I care if Vylum charges what he charges?

Establishing a base rate based on the collection of accurate data is not impossible. And in my opinion, critical in this digital age. To each his own. It's none of my business what you do in your neck of the Woods's long as it's keeping food on your table and a roof over your head.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> Did you mean prices? Because providing information on the process often sells a job for the competent contractor. At least that's what's been mentioned here numerous times.



Yes, I meant prices. Maybe I will go on my site and post just a few basic prices, for bedrooms and what-not. But instead of one straight price, I will post something like 'small bedroom 250-400' 'door per coat per side 25-35' something like that.

Honestly, I've found that most people dont even go to my website, even if I post the link in front of their face. I always ask them if the saw the pictures of the Boat I did, and they say no.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Vylum said:


> ive been on my own for a year and have just been eyeballing (mostly repaints). estimating has been my biggest challenge, measuring i could see for commercial but i agree there are too many factors in residential repaints. herritage homes have killed me, the trim takes forever!
> 
> ive been thinking about flat pricing pieces of a house, each piece with 3 prices depending on size coats and difficulty
> 
> ...


I think you have answered your own question in regards to the trim. Try using X per door, X per window, X per linear foot for crown, X per lf for base and trim, etc.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

This has been a good thread I think. Interesting exchange so far. 

I do see the wisdom in the prohibition of specific pricing talk not only because it can cause a ruckus but that too much of that might verge on price fixing. 

Lot of talk about the variables of any given job. Of course there are always variables, but for me I've found that I invented a majority of them in my own head and that most of them really weren't all that relevant to the average customer. Unless of course the proposed variables might save them some money. 

Looking at the structure of the newer lead generating services like Amazon, and what Angie's List has become, there definitely seems to be a new pricing dynamic coming into existence. In some markets at least.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> I could never make it with those prices. They're rediculious, in any market imo. I guess if you're a shredder ya don't mind working for free sometimes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


you two pedants missed the point of the post but thanks for your help sweetheart


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

See the thumb? Now move over 2...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Been in the painting trade for 40+ years full time,only job i ever had

been in business for myself the last 10 years
when i started my "company" the market had crashed, was laid off from a 14 year job running crews of 80+ painters at Disney and other high profile places

never in my life did i bid a job, so i learned the hard way the first few years bidding by eyeball, guessing what a HO would pay, piece work and any way to pay my bills

so i understand where everyone is coming from

but then i got serious about being a company, opened a shop, hired full time real painters ( still with me today ) started using software by Estimate Works by DeWave https://devwave.com/estimateworksversion/painting-estimating-software.asp setting it up with my numbers and everything changed

Now i measure interior and enter in program and BAM have a price that allows me profit, exteriors i use eagleview http://www.eagleview.com/Products/PropertySolutions/EagleViewReports.aspx then enter it in Estimate Works

Now my prices are set & level from job to job, if a HO wants a lower price i ask what they want to cut from job ( aint coming from my pocket no more ) , built a solid website ( no price listed ) but i do have a form for cabinet painting that allows them to enter how many door / how many draws and add a few pictures but it won't give them a price online

Then i upgraded my customers, stopped working for price shoppers & soccer moms 

geared my company to HO who wanted a solid company, pushed the fact of having a shop and invite customers to visit it, still have the same crew for 10 years showing we're a good company to work for & to hire for painting their home

total package deal ... we sell quality, we sell our self, we sell our service

if i could pass any tip along i would say LEARN YOUR NUMBERS, set price to make a profit ... it's a business

BTW by streamlining my company i've grown, people don't mind paying if they get what they are paying for but your price need to be set, guessing just won't work if you want to grow

also all markets are different 


.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Repaint Florida said:


> .....geared my company to HO who wanted a solid company, pushed the fact of having a shop and invite customers to visit it, still have the same crew for 10 years showing we're a good company to work for & to hire for painting their home
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is the kind of thing I'm going for. I actually look forward to the day that we can sell, and customers can shop, totally online. 

CA has made the point a couple times in this thread that such a set up would not only benefit the customer, but the contractor as well. 

Every call we get from a house flipper looking for the cheapest price that we spend labor to bid on costs us money. 

There would be a certain amount of weeding out undesirable customers with stock, online pricing. If a customer is just looking for a cheap, part time, dip shi! painter, then they can call the $99 a room guys on Craigslist instead of the reputable companies that will charge multiples of that price. No need to waste everyone's time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I put a few bids on thumbtack today, and met two of them in person, and wrote up proposals. Here is a text I got a few hours ago: 

"Ok. We have reviewed all offers. We had lower offers, but Randall and I were impressed with your level of detail in describing your paint process on the kitchen cabinets as well as. We would like to accept your proposal. I will follow up with an email as well."

I clearly got the job by showing up in person and explaining to them why it costs so much to turn stained and finished oak cabinets into paint. If my website (which they didnt even look at) just had a square foot price, I dont think they would have called me.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Repaint Florida said:


> Been in the painting trade for 40+ years full time,only job i ever had
> 
> been in business for myself the last 10 years
> when i started my "company" the market had crashed, was laid off from a 14 year job running crews of 80+ painters at Disney and other high profile places
> ...


This^^,I will be long dead before this area has resorted to using the internet to get pricing on painting jobs.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

What I've learned in this thread, is that outside of lead generators, painting contractors aren't using the internet for business as much as it appeared they were during the early days of PT. Just around the economic collapse when everyone was into web site structure, internet advertising, web based accounting and management, etc. etc. Everything techy.

Now that the economy is doing better and the jobs are rolling in, contractor web sites seem to be more like photo albums than a call to action. No one seems interested in logos, branding, and web based advertising like they once were. Even blogging has become more or less a hobby for the writing enthusiast rather than an important business tool.

Maybe contractors have found that social media based networking, primarily Facebook, is better suited for referrals than an active advertising campaign through ones own website. However, streamlining the estimating process still seems to be as important as it ever was. So software and a means of shooting those estimates to the referred customer base, will at least keep the personal electronic device market in business while the cob webs grow in those web sites.

Bottom line, painting was never as sophisticated as it thought it was.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

Whatever works for you works for you.

Check out the website of this old PT member. He lays out a range of pricing for budgeting purposes to let the potential clients know what they should be thinking about when budgeting for a paint job. The guy is located in Florida and by the looks of his pictures many of the homes have a cookie cutter feel to them which may make it easier for broad pricing examples.

https://burnettpainting.com/painting-cost-venice-florida/exterior-painting-cost/

We would not be a big proponent of laying out pricing on our website. You only serve to set up false expectations in your clients. Variables as they have been referred to in this thread are nothing to sneeze at. Does the soffit on a one story house cost as much to paint as the soffit on a four story house?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Roamer said:


> Whatever works for you works for you.
> 
> Check out the website of this old PT member. He lays out a range of pricing for budgeting purposes to let the potential clients know what they should be thinking about when budgeting for a paint job. The guy is located in Florida and by the looks of his pictures many of the homes have a cookie cutter feel to them which may make it easier for broad pricing examples.
> 
> ...


Easy variable to identify with a check box for a one or two story house. That variable wouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of not providing rates to an online shopper.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Had to check why this thread is dragging out so long.....
I'd just write "tree fiddy" on a piece of scrap paper and hand it to them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Had to check why this thread is dragging out so long.....
> I'd just write "tree fiddy" on a piece of scrap paper and hand it to them.


It's compelling! Because discussing price is taboo here at PT.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It's compelling! Because discussing price is taboo here at PT.


Discussing *how* to bid or price jobs has never been taboo. Asking specific, "How much should I charge for...?", questions are.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Discussing *how* to bid or price jobs has never been taboo. Asking specific, "How much should I charge for...?", questions are.


Got it. And I could never understand why anyone would ask how much to charge when it varies so widely from region to region. It's one thing to ask how long it should take, or what method would work better than another, but how much to charge? Geez Louize!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Easy variable to identify with a check box for a one or two story house. That variable wouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of not providing rates to an online shopper.


That makes perfect sense. One or two story house - easy peasy. The fact that the prep on one house may take seven days while for another it might only take three shouldn't enter into the picture at all. Just as long as the customer can get "a number" with just a click - it's all good. 

Sheesh... I give up.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

RH said:


> That makes perfect sense. One or two story house - easy peasy. The fact that the prep on one house may take seven days while for another it might only take three shouldn't enter into the picture at all. Just as long as the customer can get "a number" with just a click - it's all good.
> 
> Sheesh... I give up.


How about the two story house that has crazy roof pitches, hard ladder moves, chimneys that are 10ft in the air on a 12/12 pitch roof? Mix that in with out of bushes and trees blocking every move. Dealing with all that stuff can kill your labor time and if not priced right, your bottom line. 

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> How about the two story house that has crazy roof pitches, hard ladder moves, chimneys that are 10ft in the air on a 12/12 pitch roof? Mix that in with out of bushes and trees blocking every move. Dealing with all that stuff can kill your labor time and if not priced right, your bottom line.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Pfffttt... mere trifles.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> How about the two story house that has crazy roof pitches, hard ladder moves, chimneys that are 10ft in the air on a 12/12 pitch roof? Mix that in with out of bushes and trees blocking every move. Dealing with all that stuff can kill your labor time and if not priced right, your bottom line.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


But we're talking about a base rate here that is formulated from an average of configurations. The number of labor hours to deal with specific variables not provided in an online application _should_ be considered and addressed during the onsite assessment. You've made it to the front door, no one's going to turn you away now because of the additional cost to reach that dormer. Particularly, since they've already got a sense of who you are through your web site once they were able to quickly get past the bottom line. 

When you buy a can of paint that provides a spread rate of 300 sf for a standard surface, but you only get 250 sf because of some variables like, unusual textures, or unique architectural features, do you blame the paint manufacturer for gouging you? Or false advertising?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think we should thank Sergio for an entertaining thread!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Tree fiddy!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Tree fiddy!


I don't know how you can drink this early in the morning. Must be a new batch!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I think we should thank Sergio for an entertaining thread!


And I do appreciate that you and I can spar without getting pissed off and flinging personal insults at each other. Frustrated? Exasperated? Certainly - but respectfully so.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> And I do appreciate that you and I can spar without getting pissed off and flinging personal insults at each other. Frustrated? Exasperated? Certainly - but respectfully so.


Thanks! Because at the end of the day, and at the risk of being a contrarian, we're all just exercising critical thinking skills here. And that's always interesting and entertaining.

And of course as an outsider, I'm in the easy position to be critical because I'm not burdened, or obligated by the reality of the situation. But the thread did provoke thoughts, ideas, arguments, and rebuttals, albeit some frustration.

And as always, I sincerely respect all of you who have the courage to operate your own businesses. I can only imagine the responsibility.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Now CA and I want everyone to join us in a rousing redition of Kumbaya...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Now CA and I want everyone to join us in a rousing redition of Kumbaya...


PAC can supply the booze. Just don't grab my ass.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> PAC can supply the booze. Just don't grab my ass.


Killjoy...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't know how you can drink this early in the morning. Must be a new batch!


It was lunch time here when i posted that.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> PAC can supply the booze. Just don't grab my ass.


can't promise anything. Depends on what gender you identify as i guess.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

We got some triple distilled stuff for Fourth of July. Smooooooth. Backyard fireworks should be a hoot this year. Wonder how many fingers will disappear this year?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

RH said:


> Now CA and I want everyone to join us in a rousing redition of Kumbaya...


Afterwards we can segway into this. 





Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Man, that takes me back. That's the year I gratuaded from high school. Sigh...


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

If you publish your rates for customers to see, you also have published them for competitors to see. Have you ever been in on a BS fishing session at the paint store with some fellow painters? It's a song and dance routine and no one wants to let the cat out of the bag.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gwarel said:


> If you publish your rates for customers to see, you also have published them for competitors to see. Have you ever been in on a BS fishing session at the paint store with some fellow painters? It's a song and dance routine and no one wants to let the cat out of the bag.


With so many different approaches to the painting process, in terms of production capabilities, application methods, and resources, it can be very intimidating putting a number out there. But the bottom line is, those numbers are likely unique to the individual posting them and not necessarily easily replicated, or even applicable to another painter.

If rates were posted, they would reflect a wide range of prices, and shoppers would continue to fall into the categories they always have. Like, The Generous, The Reasonable, and The Cheap. But given the influence social media has on today's small businesses, reputation will help sustain the higher end prices in my opinion. 

I'm guessing e shoppers place a higher value on home service providers than they do the knick knacks they search for on Amazon.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> Pfffttt... mere trifles.


really, it's the 8 over 8 windows that are a real bitch:vs_shocked:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> Man, that takes me back. That's the year I graduated from high school. Sigh...


you and me both


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gwarel said:


> If you publish your rates for customers to see, you also have published them for competitors to see. Have you ever been in on a BS fishing session at the paint store with some fellow painters? It's a song and dance routine and no one wants to let the cat out of the bag.


You should try getting their SW paint prices out of them sometime. Complete BS sessions. 90% of the time they have no idea what they are paying and will throw out some outrageously low number to throw you off or give them a low, low price to get their business.


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## Worker Bee (Jun 2, 2017)

Until painters, in general, come together like elctricians, plumbers and even roofers, on a set of basic pricing structures, this idea of posting proprietary information online like this is a disaster.

Too many out there are willing to work for $15 an hour with next to no overhead and under cut everybody. Do shoddy work, and we all get labelled as over priced, crappy painters. We have ALL seen it.

The majority of people do not feel comfortable paying a 'painter' north of $50 an hour to paint, regardless if its one guy of 5 guys on a job. There is a sentiment out there, that painting is 'easy' anyone 'can do it' and to charge X amount (typically more than what the homeowner makes) makes you a rip off. Especially when bob the the pharmacist, who got laid off last year is willing to do the same job you bid on, for 1/3-/15 your price. You cant compete with that, and attempting to compete with that will bankrupt you.

Until the big boys - CertaPro, College Pro, and even your Local giants, get on board with this, as a small outfit its suicide to do this.

Sure you may be able to put a sq ft price for new work, but repaints, and residential repairs, there are SOOO many variables that will change the scope of a job. Just look at a simple exterior, the landscaping on a house, WILL change the bid for a particular job if it makes it more difficult to work on that house.

Having the equipment, and or the ability to get the quipment is yet another portion of a job that is often overlooked.

For instance I did a job recently which I misjudged the height of a window. That was actually a first, but the point is, my 32' wouldnt reach so I had to wait, 3 days, to rent a 40' to get to a window, sure it only cost me $25 to rent the ladder, but that was an unforseen non budgetted cost on that job.

Most homeowners know how to paint to some extent. But rarely do home owners know HOW to paint, or what goes into making a DIY job vs a Pro job or how to get the same results.

Lets take another example, as its one that most painters advertise, but dont have a clue as to what theyre doing...

Plaster repair. the real stuff.

How do you put a sq ft cost on that? If its water damage, that small section of corrosion on the finish coat could very easily turn into half the wall. You dont know until you begin to remove it. and a lot of people are on a budget. So you really cant walk in there and tell them T&M at $60 an hour. While some of you can get away with this, in my area, its not going to fly, youll be sitting home. 

You have to know WHAT your looking at, and be able to address the situation based largely on your experience. Its that experience as a professional, is what the home owner is really paying for. Someone that KNOWS WHAT theyre looking at, and are able to handle it.

Its very easy to get in over yourhead, and then your in for major problems. I prefer to avoid those situations myself.

So while you are correct that online shoppers ARE looking for base prices on things, until the big boys pull the trigger on it, the rest of us - its suicide.

Plus profit margins will often fluctuate from job to job. And most home owners have not a clue as to what the costs are with running a business. they may have 'some idea' but they have no idea.

They also cant make an educated decision because they lack all the information. For instance, repainting wood windows. lets say you have a 24x36" 2 sash wood window with 60 years of paint on it.

Figure, 40 minutes to prep prime and paint that window. 

Lets say that window is on the first floor, next to the driveway.....

Lets say you charge $50 to paint that window....

Now lets put a massive bush in front of it, one that you cant get a ladder behind, you cant lean the ladder to the gutter as the ladder will kick out... or its a 2-3 story house.... Now what do you do? 

Well now you need to build scaffold to go over that bush.

The 40 minute window, just turned into 2 hours. Dont forget loading and unloading, before and after the job, of equipment....at $50, your now losing money, on that window...

And unless that particular home owner is looking to REPLACE those old wood windows with new windows, they have no idea as to what a new window costs, installed. Or again, what goes into installing a new window. Thats where YOUR experience comes into play.

I do like the idea of levelling the playing field, but until a big player actually does it, it can very easily destroy you.

Lets take this a step further...

Everyone knows plumbers charge $100 an hour to come out to your house. $100 to say 'yep, its plugged' and to estimate the cost of the repair. and home owners by and large accept that it will cost them $100 to call a plumber, a professional, with years of experience, to get into his truck, and come over and LOOK - not fix, but LOOK at the job.

Most of us, would be out of business if we charged $50 to look at a job. No one would pay it. My question is, what make the plumber, different from the painter? both require years of knowledge and experience, both require special tools and equipment, both require insurance licenses ect..

The difference? theres no level playing field because your competition wont play ball and life themselves up.

And home owners know there are 10 companies they can call, most of which dont charge for an 'estimate' but they know ALL plumbers charge for an estimate.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

WorkerBee said:


> ...My question is, what makes the plumber different from the painter? both require years of knowledge and experience, both require special tools and equipment, both require insurance licenses ect...
> 
> The difference? theres no level playing field because your competition wont play ball and life themselves up.


The learning curve for plumbers and painters may be similar, but liability, in terms of injury or death as a result of poor workmanship are far greater of a threat for the plumber than the painter. Therefore, more training, and compliance requirements are levied beyond merely a contractor and business license for the plumbing industry, resulting in higher premium rates.

But the subject is interesting in that the potential and relative ease of being self employed in the painting trade, lends itself to the competitiveness and wide range of rates offered in this industry..

And as the union apprenticeship programs diminish, along with vocational training programs, the more we see self starting entrepreneurs making up the majority of companies in the painting field. As this increases, standards will vary, and the less oversite will be required.

Without the integrity of standards, compliance, permits, and qualifications recognized by the building industry in general, the less the painting trade has to justify any premium rates. Consequently, the value for the painting industry is speed rather than quality, all in the interest of keeping competitive and keeping costs down.

However, having hired painting contractors who run small shops, to working by themselves, I do find that most charge well beyond the going union rates in my area. Most of them don't even need to provide prevailing wage documentation because their rates are well above it. And frankly, a lot of the painters don't have a high overhead. So self employment as a painter in my region is a pretty good gig provided you have a good reputation. And maybe that doesn''t even matter. I don't know.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

price is so over rated on here. rich baby boomers want a professional who they can trust to do the right job, not who can find the lowest price


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Vylum said:


> price is so over rated on here. rich baby boomers want a professional who they can trust to do the right job, not who can find the lowest price


You mean the children of the depression era parents? They're cheaper....I mean more budget conscious than anyone. It's these millennial hipsters that don't mind raining dollas down on lowly service providers. Aftwerall, the bearded ones don't like getting their hands dirty. Where as a boomer will kick a painter out of the way to show them how its done.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

maybe in sf with all the tech bros but in general millennials are priced out of real estate and broke


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## Eagle Cap Painter (Nov 14, 2016)

Boomers strip-mined the economy and congratulated one another on their hard work while condemning the younger, poorer generations as lazy.

Sincerely,
A bearded millennial veteran who's held 3 concurrent jobs and still struggled.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Vylum said:


> ive been on my own for a year and have just been eyeballing (mostly repaints). estimating has been my biggest challenge, measuring i could see for commercial but i agree there are too many factors in residential repaints. herritage homes have killed me, the trim takes forever!
> 
> ive been thinking about flat pricing pieces of a house, each piece with 3 prices depending on size coats and difficulty
> 
> ...


You have to be kidding.. trim is more labor involved, than the wallz, well, unless you're brush and rolling it, and ever then masking for clean lines takes a lot. You are way too cheap and won't grow. Just two cents.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Rbriggs82 said:


> What I'm trying to say is this whole argument is for nothing. 98% of painting companies are getting there calls from referrals, print advertising, internet lead generation services , and maybe some social media. Not from people clicking on their website.


It is like looking into the fairy tale story "tell me mirror.. am I beautiful". There is no such thing as ppl searching the whole wide web. They stick to the most common ppl used service sites, which are paid mostly by contractors looking for work. Just a win win, can't go without it these days, unless too much word of a mouth, which I can't physically deal with.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Eagle Cap Painter said:


> Boomers strip-mined the economy and congratulated one another on their hard work while condemning the younger, poorer generations as lazy.
> 
> Sincerely,
> A bearded millennial veteran who's held 3 concurrent jobs and still struggled.


Good point. And thanks for your service. But those big beards really make your heads look smaller.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

goga said:


> You have to be kidding.. trim is more labor involved, than the wallz, well, unless you're brush and rolling it, and ever then masking for clean lines takes a lot. You are way too cheap and won't grow. Just two cents.


oh you dont say? ill adjust my prices right away. good thing we can discuss real pricing on here or id be lost without you guys!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Yeah. If I paint a bedroom, I can run the base and window sills in about 15 minutes.... Thats worth $60. Doors are a different story. In my bids, Doors are separate from trim.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Vylum said:


> oh you dont say? ill adjust my prices right away. good thing we can discuss real pricing on here or id be lost without you guys!


You asked "what you guys think of this method" and goga replied. Whether you realize it or not, your method is a sf price, you just have to convert the room to sf and and the trim to lf. It only takes a few more minutes and you have a formula to move forward with..........


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

Gwarel said:


> You asked "what you guys think of this method" and goga replied. Whether you realize it or not, your method is a sf price, you just have to convert the room to sf and and the trim to lf. It only takes a few more minutes and you have a formula to move forward with..........


youre wrong.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Woodco said:


> Yeah. If I paint a bedroom, I can run the base and window sills in about 15 minutes.... Thats worth $60. Doors are a different story. In my bids, Doors are separate from trim.


Don't take it wrong, but bs is a bs. It takes at least 1 hour to just tape it off to make clean lines, especially carpet has to be protected, not to mention paint it in 15 minutes. Well, to each their own.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Yeah. If I paint a bedroom, I can run the base and window sills in about 15 minutes.... Thats worth $60. Doors are a different story. In my bids, Doors are separate from trim.


Man, it takes me longer than that to simply clean them. Then add in any sanding, maybe some patching of nicks and dings, masking if carpet is present. Then there's putting on my knee pads and getting down on all fours - another ten at least.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Nothing surprises me anymore in terms of production rates. I've seen painters apply materials and equipment faster than I ever could imagine. I actually consider myself average speed and probably slower than most of the younger painters. That's why I would have to charge more for jobs, if I had my own one man show.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Nothing surprises me anymore in terms of production rates. I've seen painters apply materials and equipment faster than I ever could imagine. I actually consider myself average speed and probably slower than most of the younger painters. That's why I would have to charge more for jobs, if I had my own one man show.


Luckily, we can sell our and knowledge and "experience" as we get older - so we can get away with it.


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## Admin (Jan 4, 2010)

We have a new article about estimates.
http://www.painttalk.com/articles/2017/08/tips-for-building-painters-estimates-for-customer/


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So, the following paragraph would obviously apply to the internet. And although it does suggest a ballpark figure should be avoided, the article doesn't mention that offering a base rate was a bad idea in and of itself. It does suggest that a remote estimate should be followed up with an on site visit in order to provide an accurate estimate. This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Because at the end of the day, you got the call. And isn't that the purpose of internet marketing?


From article: 

*Avoid Phone Estimates*
Home and business owners who have heard about your company or remember your marketing message sometimes request estimates over the phone. They may want to see if your price is within their price range by asking you to “ballpark” the job without seeing the property. Whatever the reason, such calls are usually fishing expeditions for cheap quotes.
While it’s not unheard of to offer a ballpark estimate, it’s far smarter to let the potential client know that an on-site visit is essential for an accurate quote with no unwelcome surprises. Every job is different and a basic square-foot estimate by phone can’t possibly include all potential factors. This also gives you the opportunity to better sell your services on a more personal level.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Write "tree fiddy" on a piece of paper, duct tape that to a big ol' rock, and throw it through their cheap a55 tire kicking front window!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I could help get things riled up again by using my "poking stick", but I'm not gonna'.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> I could help get things riled up again by using my "poking stick", but I'm not gonna'.


Blame it on Cricket.:smile:


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

goga said:


> Don't take it wrong, but bs is a bs. It takes at least 1 hour to just tape it off to make clean lines, especially carpet has to be protected, not to mention paint it in 15 minutes. Well, to each their own.


First of all, I dont need to tape anything off, and even if I did, it would take me 5-10 minutes. Carpet is already dropped from the wall paint, and even if it wasn't, I can run base without getting any on the floor. Either that, or my bucket goes on a piece of cardboard I slide around the room. Give a little sand, dust it off, caulk if/where needed, run the base really quick. 15 minutes for a same color refresh, 1/2 hour for a two coater or color change. $60. Its baseboard in a bedroom, for cryin' out loud. Its not rocket surgery. 

No, Im not fixing any dings or anything like that. I would never do that in a small bedroom, unless specifically requested, and thats never happened.

One hour to tape off base in a small bedroom?? I've worked in several different states for many different companies, and there isnt ONE of them that would have kept me around if I were that slow.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Keep the flag in your hands up high. Where I live only less than few want brush and roll on their trim.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Nothing and none can make a better lines than tape and sealing it.. well, maybe I am in a wrong market, which likes precise work and cares less how much time it takes.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Pretty sure you win the internet. The credit roll will begin soon.


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## cscny (Aug 16, 2017)

When estimating I tend to break each room up into it's own separate project regardless of how large the complete job is. Say I have a job with 4 bedrooms, hallway, stairwell, living room dining room each becomes it's own entity. I look at the "man days" or manpower needed for each room whether it's 1 guy for a day, 1.5 guys, 2 guys etc. Once I am done with all of the rooms I will go back, add it up and I have my manpower needed. I am typically at around a 98% overall accuracy rate regardless of size using this method.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

cscny said:


> When estimating I tend to break each room up into it's own separate project regardless of how large the complete job is. Say I have a job with 4 bedrooms, hallway, stairwell, living room dining room each becomes it's own entity. I look at the "man days" or manpower needed for each room whether it's 1 guy for a day, 1.5 guys, 2 guys etc. Once I am done with all of the rooms I will go back, add it up and I have my manpower needed. I am typically at around a 98% overall accuracy rate regardless of size using this method.


Me too....makes it pretty easy. I don't sell tasks, I sell time. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

Yep, look at the work, figure out time is the base.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm sure anyone here would have recognized a failure in their estimation method after the first several jobs. This subject doesn't seem as profound as actually knowing one's production rates without having to dump a safety percentage on top of everything they estimate.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

*sq ft rates*

Does anyone else use sq ft rates of the floor plan? it usually ends up working pretty decent for me. Usually just look it up on the county tax assessor website.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

How is it fair to yourself to give a same floor sf quote on the 8' bedroom 12^12 and 16' stairway 4^12? Not even talking about 20' living with balcony, kitchens with tons of cabinets to go around and awkward entrances with unreachable staircase corners.


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## 702robladd (Sep 14, 2017)

goga said:


> How is it fair to yourself to give a same floor sf quote on the 8' bedroom 12^12 and 16' stairway 4^12? Not even talking about 20' living with balcony, kitchens with tons of cabinets to go around and awkward entrances with unreachable staircase corners.




You can go 3 doors down and bid on the same spec home. The next 1 has kids & the last 1 had smokers.

The only thing the same was during nc.
Once it has been occupied everything changes especially the price to repaint.

During nc I can see a set sq ft price as soon as it's occupied sq ft becomes a bench mark to draw from and real estimating begins on what will it take to repaint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

I know its an old thread but I’m old to so what. Winter is here already 90 percent painters here bidding like 1988. Also diving into lead services :vs_shocked:

Here’s a great review for what seems like the most popular one here 
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/thumbtack.html 

Take a little time each week or day and invest in your own marketing plan. Now I know tons of wonderful rich painters will chime in . They don’t need to need to market . They are booked till spring :vs_whistle: :biggrin:


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I got lucky and just lined up enough work to last through new year. Xmas time is where noone wants anything done. Check into Thumbtack. I've had good luck with them lately during slower periods.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodco said:


> I got lucky and just lined up enough work to last through new year. Xmas time is where noone wants anything done. Check into Thumbtack. I've had good luck with them lately during slower periods.


Thumbtack not in a million years. Bid against 8 other painters no thanks


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

The one area that I've consistently been screwing up in my estimates is low balling the amount of sundries. All that blue tape really adds up at $8/roll.

Other than reviewing costs of previous jobs, what methods are you using for calculating the amount of sundries you'll need to purchase for a job?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Thumbtack not in a million years. Bid against 8 other painters no thanks


Granted, I mostly just go for the wallpaper jobs, cuz Im the only one on there, but theres a trick to thumbtack:

Its only 5 quotes max, BTW. It tells you how many painters have responded too. The trick is, you only send a quote if you're the first or maybe the second one. I dont send an actual quote either. I try to get them to call me ASAP, so I can give a bid in person. Have a good selling template, and sell yourself and your quality. I make it very clear that it is not possible to give an accurate quote without seeing it in person, because the bid may be way too high in which the customer will get ripped off, or too low, where the quality of work suffers. (Hopefully this will blow out anyone who sends an actual number) However, sometimes I will give them a number over the phone if its something simple like bedroom walls. Anyway, GET THEM ON THE PHONE so you can blow out the rest of the hacks right away. 

In general, people arent gonna have five people give them a bid. I've found, that if you're the first one to give a bid in person, they usually dont bother with anyone else. Also, When I show up in person, Im dressed nice and professional, and make it clear that Im doing the work personally, and wont be dropping off a crew of $10 an hour undocumented immigrants and collect the check at the end. Yes, I absolutely use my white privelage to my advantage.

Anyway, its not much different than people calling you for bids. Just be better than the competition.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> The one area that I've consistently been screwing up in my estimates is low balling the amount of sundries. All that blue tape really adds up at $8/roll.
> 
> Other than reviewing costs of previous jobs, what methods are you using for calculating the amount of sundries you'll need to purchase for a job?
> 
> ...


1 way to do it is to figure out what it takes for YOU to apply 1 gallon of paint, then multiply by how many gallons youre estimating.You'll need to make adjustments as you learn, but it's a starting point. Do it for walls, and do it again for trim. Figure in EVERYTHING. Caulk, Bondo, spackle, etc.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I set my PEP cloud up to figure 10% of my labor cost to be sundries. Its reasonably accurate. I lowballed the crap out of my caulking for a new hardy board sided exterior though a couple days ago...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

So, I wonder what ever happened to Sergiothepainter...


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Granted, I mostly just go for the wallpaper jobs, cuz Im the only one on there, but theres a trick to thumbtack:
> 
> Its only 5 quotes max, BTW. It tells you how many painters have responded too. The trick is, you only send a quote if you're the first or maybe the second one. I dont send an actual quote either. I try to get them to call me ASAP, so I can give a bid in person. Have a good selling template, and sell yourself and your quality. I make it very clear that it is not possible to give an accurate quote without seeing it in person, because the bid may be way too high in which the customer will get ripped off, or too low, where the quality of work suffers. (Hopefully this will blow out anyone who sends an actual number) However, sometimes I will give them a number over the phone if its something simple like bedroom walls. Anyway, GET THEM ON THE PHONE so you can blow out the rest of the hacks right away.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by this? I have to send an actual monetary amount or it will not work. I also only quote wall paper jobs and usually just throw a number out and say I really need to look at the job to quote properly. I still only get maybe 2 jobs a year.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

No. You can send an "N/A" need more info where it says "whats your price?" I have a few templates. They all start with a link to my website. If it really makes you, just send $1 and explain that a honest quote is not possible without more info. 

Here is one of my wallpaper templates: 

http://www.woodcopainting.com/ Hi, Im Chris. The best way to do this is to send me a link to the actual wallpaper choice, the dimensions, and description of your wall, and maybe a picture or two, including a close up of the wall surface. I need to figure out whether a liner paper, or a primer is needed, then I can give an accurate quote. Also, feel free to call or text at ***-***-****. Thanks!

Most of my hanging jobs are accent walls, so I dont need to actually go to them to give them a price.

Since Im usually the only one bidding wallpaper, I get most of the ones that respond to me. And, it only cost $5 to send it. Painting ones are up to $20. Thats why I dont bother unless Im the first one responding.

I've done three hanging jobs in the last month from thumbtack. One was a contractor that I may get future work from. I've also snagged a designer or two from thumbtack that get me more work too. Im starting a complete house repaint today, from a referral from a designer I met on thumbtack. Same designer also referred me a huge cabinet job too.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Granted, I mostly just go for the wallpaper jobs, cuz Im the only one on there, but theres a trick to thumbtack:
> 
> Its only 5 quotes max, BTW. It tells you how many painters have responded too. The trick is, you only send a quote if you're the first or maybe the second one. I dont send an actual quote either. I try to get them to call me ASAP, so I can give a bid in person. Have a good selling template, and sell yourself and your quality. I make it very clear that it is not possible to give an accurate quote without seeing it in person, because the bid may be way too high in which the customer will get ripped off, or too low, where the quality of work suffers. (Hopefully this will blow out anyone who sends an actual number) However, sometimes I will give them a number over the phone if its something simple like bedroom walls. Anyway, GET THEM ON THE PHONE so you can blow out the rest of the hacks right away.
> 
> ...


White Privilege wtf does that even mean ??


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

If you dont understand, I dont know what to tell ya. Do I really need to explain it?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodco said:


> If you dont understand, I dont know what to tell ya. Do I really need to explain it?




No need to explain anything like that here, it would just get the thread closed. Even bringing such a concept up could do that in this section. Might very well be to late already. 

However like Nick, I would be interested to hear exactly what you mean by that phrase. We do have an outhouse for such discussions. 


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Don't explain it. Keep in mind, even the outhouse has rules regarding these types of discussions. They don't say you can't talk about those particular issues, but they do say which direction those discussions can go in.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

People can PM me if they feel the need.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

PM what ? Explanation of your opinion no thanks I’ll pass.


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## Liquidcolor (Nov 24, 2017)

1000000% brother


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think Woodco's comment was tongue and cheek. First, the tongue part was the fact that many contractors and workers of all races, do often compete with undocumented labor, depending on the region. There is no question this lends itself to price disadvantages.

Second, the cheek part was the notion that white privilege even exists anymore amongst the working class. It was meant to be ironic. IMO.


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