# HO said they had it stripped to bare wood 12 years ago



## Epoxy Pro

We just looked at a huge house to repaint. The HO said they had it stripped to bare wood 12 years ago to remove all the lead paint. The problem is who ever stripped the home did not bother with the upper trim, from the second floor up to the roof lines.

The HO is convinced there is no lead paint left. She was not able to meet me during our walk through. I explained to her about the swab test plus it has the tell tale signs it is lead paint.

I'm not sure how to go about convincing her lead is present and failing, she thinks it's latex. I'm trying to set up a day to meet her and do a swab test in front of her. Usually we do the test right in front of the HO's.


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## Jmayspaint

That's tough Dave, she isn't going to want to hear that she got ripped off last time. I would make sure she clearly sees you do the test, so there can be no chance she would think You are trying to pull one over on her.


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## Bender

12 years ago somebody was worried about lead paint?


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## Gough

Bender said:


> 12 years ago somebody was worried about lead paint?


Is there anybody on PT who follows OSHA's Lead in Construction Rule? 

It's relatively new, having only been around since 1993.

Apparently, not many were worried about it 12 years ago. The fact that so many contractors ignored both 1926.62 and the EPA's disclosure rules is what led to RRP.


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## daArch

Dave,

If she doesn't trust your testing, you may want ti take that as a warning as to the trust she's willing to put in you. 

I wouldn't waste too much time and effort proving you are right.


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## straight_lines

You have to sell her you first. It's not just a paint job.


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## Epoxy Pro

I'm trying to have her or her husband meet me at the house to do the test right in front of them. This is the first time some one has responded this way about lead paint to me.

Trust me I wish it had no lead paint, we need a break from it lol.

When I first started painting some home owners were aware of lead paint and the dangers. We used to fully strip houses 20 yrs ago that had lead. No rules like today, no hepa vacs, just grind it and let the dust fly.

The peak of this house is 39' with the hill in front it's closer to 55' so I'm sure the last painter skipped that. Looking at it you can tell it wasn't painted 12 yrs ago.


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## daArch

cdpainting said:


> I'm trying to have her or her husband meet me at the house to do the test right in front of them. This is the first time some one has responded this way about lead paint to me.
> 
> Trust me I wish it had no lead paint, we need a break from it lol.
> 
> When I first started painting some home owners were aware of lead paint and the dangers. We used to fully strip houses 20 yrs ago that had lead. No rules like today, no hepa vacs, just grind it and let the dust fly.
> 
> The peak of this house is 39' with the hill in front it's closer to 55' so I'm sure the last painter skipped that. Looking at it you can tell it wasn't painted 12 yrs ago.


Oh to think (but I ain't telling) what we did with the scrapings of that huge colonial farmhouse we stripped 30 years ago. Yes, people were VERY aware. These folks wanted it stripped because of the resale value.


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## Bender

Gough said:


> Is there anybody on PT who follows OSHA's Lead in Construction Rule?
> 
> It's relatively new, having only been around since 1993.
> 
> Apparently, not many were worried about it 12 years ago. The fact that so many contractors ignored both 1926.62 and the EPA's disclosure rules is what led to RRP.


So, if a painter strips down to raw wood there is no lead residue left in the fibers?
And if the paint starts peeling it won't test hot?


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## chrisn

Bender said:


> So, if a painter strips down to raw wood there is no lead residue left in the fibers?
> And if the paint starts peeling it won't test hot?


I like that question, I hope someone knows the answer.


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## Gough

Bender said:


> So, if a painter strips down to raw wood there is no lead residue left in the fibers?
> And if the paint starts peeling it won't test hot?


We need DeanCRNA to weigh in on this one, but I think it would be well below the 5,000 ppm level.


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## aaron61

Why are you going to such lengths? It is what is..you are right and have to follow the rules. Convincing her is irrelevant.
I would move on to the next potential customer. She is not going to want to pay for that again.


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## Boco

chrisn said:


> I like that question, I hope someone knows the answer.


 That came up on a project I was on . There was alot of debate in the job meeting and the answer never got answered. It was just a good thing that we did a 100% strip or replace and took pictures. Anyways the rest of the job after strip, we had to soft wash and have it approved by GC before priming. Good question.


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## bmoorecl

Osha.gov


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## bmoorecl

go to osha.gov type in lead paint.be ready to do awhole lot of reading,no stone unturn.lol. But it'll fill you in on everything,but ya,if old paint has been remove as I read,might be little lift behind.


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## CApainter

As a qualitative test, the swabs have limited accuracy or measure. A quantitative test needs to be performed at a lab for a more accurate result. I would imagine.


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## chrisn

So, nobody knows for sure, at least as of yet.:whistling2:


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## RH

I'm with Aaron and Bill. Just ask yourself if you really want this one.


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## Bender

Gough said:


> We need DeanCRNA to weigh in on this one, but I think it would be well below the 5,000 ppm level.


So do the tests that everyone uses to show a HO that their house has lead and they need to spend untold thousands of dollars to remove it distinguish between permissible levels?


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## Gough

Bender said:


> So do the tests that everyone uses to show a HO that their house has lead and they need to spend untold thousands of dollars to remove it distinguish between permissible levels?


More than you wanted to know:

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/3M-leadcheck-report.pdf

Short answer: no. 

Longer answer: nooooooo


But seriously, the Battelle study showed a high number of false positives at lead levels known to be below the EPA threshold.

As CApainter pointed out, quantitative tests would be necessary to rule out LBP.

Especially in the OP's case, i wouldn't rely on the swabs. Since long before RRP, our practice has been to submit actual samples for analysis.


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## Dean CRCNA

You can strip lead based paint off and still show that the bare wood has lead in it. A lot depends how much lead was put in the paint. If the original paint was 1.2 mcg/cm2, then you may not show any in the wood after stripping. If the original paint was 25 mcg/cm2, you most likely will find lead in the bare wood.

LeadCheck was designed to be "better safe than sorry", so it will have false positives. Supposedly, how much lead is in the paint will determine how red it will turn. A pastel pink may indicate that it is under the EPA RRP line of 1 mcg/cm2. A bright red may indicate that it is above 1 mcg/cm2 (or it is a false positive).

As a refresher, for EPA & HUD, lead based paint is 1 mcg/cm2. If it is 0.9 mcg/cm2 it is not officially lead based paint, but it does have lead in it. OSHA doesn't want any reading higher than zero.


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## Dean CRCNA

also wanted to add that Certified Renovators can take paint chip samples and send them to a lab, which will give an accurate reading ... if one is needed.


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## Gough

Dean CRCNA said:


> You can strip lead based paint off and still show that the bare wood has lead in it. A lot depends how much lead was put in the paint. If the original paint was 1.2 mcg/cm2, then you may not show any in the wood after stripping. If the original paint was 25 mcg/cm2, you most likely will find lead in the bare wood.
> 
> LeadCheck was designed to be "better safe than sorry", so it will have false positives. Supposedly, how much lead is in the paint will determine how red it will turn. A pastel pink may indicate that it is under the EPA RRP line of 1 mcg/cm2. A bright red may indicate that it is above 1 mcg/cm2 (or it is a false positive).
> 
> As a refresher, for EPA & HUD, lead based paint is 1 mcg/cm2. If it is 0.9 mcg/cm2 it is not officially lead based paint, but it does have lead in it. OSHA doesn't want any reading higher than zero.


But, IIRC, OSHA has a airborne level below which you don't need to do anything: the "action level", 30 ug/m^3 for a time-weighted average. So, from the standpoint of OSHA, the presence of LBP isn't really the concern, it's more about the level to which an employee is exposed.


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## Epoxy Pro

RH said:


> I'm with Aaron and Bill. Just ask yourself if you really want this one.


We do want to do this one. I talked with the HO this morning and will be meeting them Monday to show them where I found lead paint. One of their tenants is going through chemo for lung cancer. This makes it a tad bit harder. It's a big beautiful multi colored home. The lead is only present on the high parts of trim.


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## slinger58

Dean CRCNA said:


> You can strip lead based paint off and still show that the bare wood has lead in it. A lot depends how much lead was put in the paint. If the original paint was 1.2 mcg/cm2, then you may not show any in the wood after stripping. If the original paint was 25 mcg/cm2, you most likely will find lead in the bare wood.
> 
> LeadCheck was designed to be "better safe than sorry", so it will have false positives. Supposedly, how much lead is in the paint will determine how red it will turn. A pastel pink may indicate that it is under the EPA RRP line of 1 mcg/cm2. A bright red may indicate that it is above 1 mcg/cm2 (or it is a false positive).
> 
> As a refresher, for EPA & HUD, lead based paint is 1 mcg/cm2. If it is 0.9 mcg/cm2 it is not officially lead based paint, but it does have lead in it. OSHA doesn't want any reading higher than zero.


I can remember when painting a house was a relatively simple endeavor.
I think that alone qualifies me as an _old fart._ :yes:


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## Roamer

Leave the testing up to the homeowner. Just assume that lead is present until they provide you with a proof there is no lead. The swab tests are just about useless. They can show lead where there is none and show no lead where lead is present. You are responsible in either case. You are also responsible for documenting all the test information including details about the swab itself and its whereabouts from time of test till time of storage.

We do not test. We assume lead is present unless the homeowner can present us with proof to the contrary.

My understanding, too, is that only a certified abatement could render the house lead free. Simply stripping paint is just that. You've removed the paint but that's all. Most stripping jobs do not achieve 100 % removal of the paint, anyway.


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## Gough

Roamer said:


> Leave the testing up to the homeowner. Just assume that lead is present until they provide you with a proof there is no lead. The swab tests are just about useless. They can show lead where there is none and show no lead where lead is present. You are responsible in either case. You are also responsible for documenting all the test information including details about the swab itself and its whereabouts from time of test till time of storage.
> 
> We do not test. We assume lead is present unless the homeowner can present us with proof to the contrary.
> 
> My understanding, too, is that only a certified abatement could render the house lead free. Simply stripping paint is just that. You've removed the paint but that's all. Most stripping jobs do not achieve 100 % removal of the paint, anyway.


Based on the Battelle study, the rate for false negatives is very low, less than 1%, so it's very unlikely that the swab will indicate that there is LBP when there isn't.

Like CD, we've had clients insist that there's no lead. We've even had them go to the trouble of providing results from testing labs. We test anyway. There have been a few awkward moments when it becomes clear that they were providing erroneous information to save money.


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## Roamer

I had heard that the false positive/false negative was as much as 10%. I'll take your word for it. We've yet to have a homeowner provide us with proof. We just perform the precautions as a matter of course. 

We don't like all the paperwork that surrounds the testing process. We do too many lead jobs to keep up or store the records. We have three RRP jobs going on this week. Another 4 jobs next week and so on.


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## Gough

Roamer said:


> I had heard that the false positive/false negative was as much as 10%. I'll take your word for it. We've yet to have a homeowner provide us with proof. We just perform the precautions as a matter of course.
> 
> We don't like all the paperwork that surrounds the testing process. We do too many lead jobs to keep up or store the records. We have three RRP jobs going on this week. Another 4 jobs next week and so on.


I can only imagine the record-keeping hassle for an outfit like yours. We've got employee medical records that are 20 years old that we need to keep for at least 10 more years. Those are for the OSHA lead regs.


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## Epoxy Pro

So this HO calls me today and says thanks for the estimate and coming over to do the lead paint test but we will be going with so and so company. I said oh yes and they just got shut down for not being lead licensed. Her response was who cares they are cheaper. I said what about that poor tenant you have dying from cancer? How will she feel with lead poisoning.

I then called the inspector and gave him a heads up.

I don't care we lost the job. I only care that the lead paint would be dealt with correctly, especially with a cancer patient living there.


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## kdpaint

Argh. That potential customer sucks. Good for you for telling her what's up and dropping a dime. She's being terribly irresponsible. If she was my neighbor I'd be ripped.


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## Jmayspaint

That's a bummer man, but perhaps a blessing in disguise. I've had a few potential customers get that glassy look in there eye when lead comes up. Some people are just not gonna pay for it. Not worth your time.


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## Oden

Disgusting.
No tolerance here for rats.


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## dan-o

Roamer said:


> We just perform the precautions as a matter of course.
> We don't like all the paperwork that surrounds the testing process. We do too many lead jobs to keep up or store the records. We have three RRP jobs going on this week. Another 4 jobs next week and so on.


This is exactly how we operate on everything pre-78.
Multiple inspector visits, no problems.


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## kdpaint

Rats schmats. it may be a fine line, but in this case, tough. If some crew came near my house letting lead dust fly, I'd make a call. My kids? My own health? CD is making a judgment call, with that cancer patient involved, it probably tipped the scales.


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## Bender

dan-o said:


> This is exactly how we operate on everything pre-78.
> Multiple inspector visits, no problems.


Do they climb ladders and such?


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## chrisn

Oden said:


> Disgusting.
> No tolerance here for rats.[/QUOTE]
> 
> maybe not in your mind but HERE they are OK, especially in this situation


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## Epoxy Pro

kdpaint said:


> Rats schmats. it may be a fine line, but in this case, tough. If some crew came near my house letting lead dust fly, I'd make a call. My kids? My own health? CD is making a judgment call, with that cancer patient involved, it probably tipped the scales.


If it wasn't for this tenant I wouldn't have bothered to call.


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## oldccm

cdpainting said:


> If it wasn't for this tenant I wouldn't have bothered to call.



To me if you drive by and see it, not your problem. 

You bid properly only to find out they went with a bunch of illegals (apologies to all the illegals) you have a right to report it. 

We did some crazy stuff back in the day but if I sent one of my employees to a job like that and they didn't know it was lead, asbestos whatever id be up the creek.


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## dan-o

Bender said:


> Do they climb ladders and such?


The inspectors? Not that I've seen.
RRP cert and WC check, quick look at work practices/site cleanliness and they're on their way. At least with us, I know others who've had a hard time.


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## straight_lines

dan-o said:


> The inspectors? Not that I've seen.
> RRP cert and WC check, quick look at work practices/site cleanliness and they're on their way. At least with us, I know others who've had a hard time.


Probably has a lot to do with how well you run your jobs.


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## Dean CRCNA

The landlord HAS to hire or be a lead safe certified firm.

Property Managers HAVE to hire or be a lead safe certified firm.


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## two fingers

Yes, unless it's been wiped over and over. But remember there is a difference between a rrp and abatement

Sent from my SM-T230NU using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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