# When you can't use oil/shellac based primers



## Paintchic (Feb 26, 2020)

I'm having a lot of problems with HO asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss. Many of them absolutely can not or do not want the fumes of Bins or Coverstain or even "odorless" oil primers. The Dulux rep tells me to use a Waterborne Alkyd primer to convert (like 123 or the Expert Waterborne, or Styx). Most of the time this works well enough but I have had a lot of yellowing happening. Any other suggestions?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Zinsser Smart Prime would be my choice in that situation. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Muralo-California*



Paintchic said:


> I'm having a lot of problems with HO asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss. Many of them absolutely can not or do not want the fumes of Bins or Coverstain or even "odorless" oil primers. The Dulux rep tells me to use a Waterborne Alkyd primer to convert (like 123 or the Expert Waterborne, or Styx). Most of the time this works well enough but I have had a lot of yellowing happening. Any other suggestions?


BM Satin Impervo was my go to trim paint in the 1990s until I ran into Muralo Ultra Ceramic. I walked into my local paint store one day and found a piece of wood that was painted white on one side and yellowish white on the other. On the back the white side was labeled Muralo and the yellowing side Satin Impervo. Every chance I got I would use the Muralo.

I quit painting for a number of years, then got back into it around 2012. A couple of years ago I was putting together a bid to paint oak doors and trim from stain and poly to white semi-gloss. I asked my local paint store expert at the store that formerly sold Muralo (Muralo was recently bought out by California Paint) about how to approach priming and painting this woodwork. He said a good coat of high gripping primer like UMA or Styx, followed by almost any paint I wanted. I asked him about Muralo. He very matter of factly said that if I used Muralo I would not need a primer because that paint sticks to anything. He said that the paint store chain he works for had to stop carrying Muralo when BM came out with Aura.

https://www.californiapaints.com/product/ultra-aquaborne-ceramic-interior-paint-semi-gloss/

You might try to locate a dealer and ask about this paint. There is a paint store near me in Mt. Prospect Illinois (Mt. Prospect Paints) that sells mostly BM, but they stock the Ultra Ceramic because they have painting contractors coming from miles away just to get this paint.

Maybe someone here will weigh in on California/Muralo Ceramic. Cali also makes a paint called Ultra Plate which might also be something to look into.

futtyos

P.S. I just re-read your post and forgot about the yellowing part. From what I remember, Muralo did not yellow. I am not sure what is the case with this now that California has this line, but back in the 1990s the paint did not yellow.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Paintchic said:


> I'm having a lot of problems with HO asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss. Many of them absolutely can not or do not want the fumes of Bins or Coverstain or even "odorless" oil primers. The Dulux rep tells me to use a Waterborne Alkyd primer to convert (like 123 or the Expert Waterborne, or Styx). Most of the time this works well enough but I have had a lot of yellowing happening. Any other suggestions?


 
Zinsser 123 is an Acrylic.

The only stain block, or tannin block I would recommend is the Smart Prime by Zinsser, or BIN. Even the smart Prime lingers a bit. The beauty of BIN is although it gases like alcohol while applying, it is one of the only organic solvents that completely dissipates in the short period of time it takes to evaporate.

I would tell the owners to make other arrangements, or find someone else. Or, sign a waiver absolving you of any deficiencies caused by stain bleed.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*What is on woodwork?*



Paintchic said:


> I'm having a lot of problems with HO asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss. Many of them absolutely can not or do not want the fumes of Bins or Coverstain or even "odorless" oil primers. The Dulux rep tells me to use a Waterborne Alkyd primer to convert (like 123 or the Expert Waterborne, or Styx). Most of the time this works well enough but I have had a lot of yellowing happening. Any other suggestions?


I was assuming that all the woodwork is varnished or polyurethaned. Is that the case or is the wood just raw or stained and without any protective coating? Readin CApainter's comment made me wonder.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

dblpost.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> BM Satin Impervo was my go to trim paint in the 1990s until I ran into Muralo Ultra Ceramic. I walked into my local paint store one day and found a piece of wood that was painted white on one side and yellowish white on the other. On the back the white side was labeled Muralo and the yellowing side Satin Impervo. Every chance I got I would use the Muralo.
> 
> I quit painting for a number of years, then got back into it around 2012. A couple of years ago I was putting together a bid to paint oak doors and trim from stain and poly to white semi-gloss. I asked my local paint store expert at the store that formerly sold Muralo (Muralo was recently bought out by California Paint) about how to approach priming and painting this woodwork. He said a good coat of high gripping primer like UMA or Styx, followed by almost any paint I wanted. I asked him about Muralo. He very matter of factly said that if I used Muralo I would not need a primer because that paint sticks to anything. He said that the paint store chain he works for had to stop carrying Muralo when BM came out with Aura.
> 
> ...


Im pretty sure she is referring to stain bleed through, not yellowing of oil base paint.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Question for Paintchic*



Woodco said:


> Im pretty sure she is referring to stain bleed through, not yellowing of oil base paint.


Good point. I should have asked her.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Question for you*



Paintchic said:


> I'm having a lot of problems with HO asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss. Many of them absolutely can not or do not want the fumes of Bins or Coverstain or even "odorless" oil primers. The Dulux rep tells me to use a Waterborne Alkyd primer to convert (like 123 or the Expert Waterborne, or Styx). Most of the time this works well enough but I have had a lot of yellowing happening. Any other suggestions?


Paintchic, when you say that you have HOs asking for wood trim, doors, and railings to be converted from wood to white semi gloss, are you saying that the HOs want bare or stained, but unfinished (no varnish or polyurethane) wood trim, doors, and railings to be painted semi-gloss white.......or are you saying that the HOs want their stained or unstained varnished or polyurethaned wood trim, doors, and railings painted white semi-gloss?

In other words, could you give all the pertinent details regarding your question so those of us here do not have to guess as to what exactly you are asking?

As to your having a lot of yellowing happening...... Are you talking about stain bleeding through primer or are you talking about the semi-gloss paint yellowing over time.

Anyway, it is good to have another Paintchic here, even though you aren't lilpaintchic. She was one of our moderators and I haven't seen her for over a year I am guessing.

futtyos


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## Paintchic (Feb 26, 2020)

I am having the issue with wood that's been finished before. Some stained, some varnished. And it's not the stain it's just the yellowing from the tannins in the wood. I know Bins is the goto and my normal routine. Sadly, many of my clients can't have these fumes. I like Styx but I still get the yellowing. I think I'm just going to go ahead and drop a waiver for anybody that doesn't want me to use the proper stuff that I'm not responsible if it yellows. I appreciate all the input. I'm not lilpaintchick but I'm happy to have found this forum!


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Tannin blocking Water-based primers take 2 coats and applied on separate days. You might want to try the Kilz premium primer. I wonder if BM Advance primer would block tannins? That's still an 18 hour dry time.

https://www.kilz.com/primer/kilz-premium


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Stain only vs finishes*



Paintchic said:


> I am having the issue with wood that's been finished before. Some stained, some varnished. And it's not the stain it's just the yellowing from the tannins in the wood. I know Bins is the goto and my normal routine. Sadly, many of my clients can't have these fumes. I like Styx but I still get the yellowing. I think I'm just going to go ahead and drop a waiver for anybody that doesn't want me to use the proper stuff that I'm not responsible if it yellows. I appreciate all the input. I'm not lilpaintchick but I'm happy to have found this forum!


Paintchic, I am not quite sure I understand you clearly. When You say wood that has been finished before, I imagine wood that has been varnished, polyurethaned, laqcuered or shellaced, whether the wood has been stained or not.

I can understand tannins bleeding through stain only, but I would think that any of the finishes I mentioned above would block tannins. At this point I have to admit that I really don't know which, if any, of the finishes I mentioned above will block tannins. I have heard that some water based primers can block tannin if 2 coats a spaced apart long enough for the 1st coat to "set" the stain. I will be curious as to the outcome of this post.

futtyos


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## diT (Jul 24, 2019)

Sometimes 2 costs of 123 won't seal in tannin.
It's really just a crap shoot when you're not using shellac


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Mr Smith said:


> Tannin blocking Water-based primers take 2 coats and applied on separate days. You might want to try the Kilz premium primer. I wonder if BM Advance primer would block tannins? That's still an 18 hour dry time.
> 
> https://www.kilz.com/primer/kilz-premium


 I'm not sure I would completly trust the Advance primer for tannin blocking either. Although it would probably do a better job than other latex primers. 
I would tell people, if they are opposed to using Shellac in thier home, rip it out and install new stuff. Problem solved. Primers like Stix and 123 are still really stinky anyhow with ammonia etc. Peoples expectations are a little unrealilistic sometimes.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

waterborne does not mean solvent free. No smell does not mean solvent free or zero voc.


We are in the middle of a huge job that has to be spec'd zero voc or 'natural' products. In these cases we buy our own shellac flake and mix it our selves with grain alcohol instead of off the shelf BIN.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

diT said:


> Sometimes 2 costs of 123 won't seal in tannin.
> It's really just a crap shoot when you're not using shellac



More like some times 40 coats of 123 won't seal tannin. I don't think Zinsser's ever claimed it would seal tannin bleed. I'm 99% sure they did have 'seals water stains' on their label years ago. Then they removed that because there's not a chance in hell it's gonna do that either.


Still a great primer though. Although I'm starting to agree with Pac in the sense that it's been cheapened over the years. Doesn't seem to have the adhesion that it used to.


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