# Oak cabinets- stain and delamination on final coat.



## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Hey guys, 
So been doing this for 10 years now. Have several cabinet job's under my belt. But, this situation keeps plaguing me. 
Prep the cabinets like normal, prime, topcoat, and then.... Stains and loose spots pop up. 
This happen to anyone else? Sometimes it almost appears that there is grease trapped deep in the grain and after the final coat it draws it out. 
Then sometimes on the edges I think I just didn't get all the grease off. 
Here's my steps:
-Sand doors with 150-180.
Scrub with Wil-Bond and scotch Brite pad. 
Dry, wipe, and tack.
Spray BIN.
Spray high build primer (enamel undercoater, lacquer primer, etc)
Sand
Spray topcoat ( breakthrough, SW waterborne topcoat) 
THEN they start showing up as the dry and continue until completely dry. 
I scrape, sand, spot prime, shoot again and we're good. 
Am I missing something? What do you all clean with? 
Appreciate any help.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Some members here caution against using the traditional tack cloths with waterbased top coats thinking that the sticky stuff the cloths are impregnated with will prevent topcoats from adhering. I still continued to use them but was careful not to apply any pressure when doing so and only did a very light wipe of the surfaces I was going to be painting.

For cleaning surfaces prior to painting, I liked to use Krud Kutter (deglossing version) and have never had any adhesion issues after doing so.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes, I too only use light pressure. Never tried the krud kutter deglosser. 
Here are a few pics of what I'm referring to. It's almost like something works to the surface and breaks it. You can feel it and then if scratched, flakes off the substrate. But was smooth before.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I would switch the order of scrubbing and sanding. I.e. clean the heck out of them first, and then sand. Not only will you avoid sanding grease and dirt and whatnot, but you won't be driving it even deeper into the gran.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I do this type of cabinet too. Stain, lacquer, to waterbase finishes. I'm using the Envirolak products and love them. Get something other than BIN like now!! BIN is not the same as 5-10 years ago. I'm talking about the DA thinned legit stuff, not the sythetic. I'm using the PR180-tannin blocking primer, and it is awesome. I add the cross-linker and it bites well and would eliminate the #2 pic issue you are having. The #3 issue is not being clean enough. Like Joe67 said, scrub your doors and surfaces first, rinse, then sand.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Joe67 said:


> I would switch the order of scrubbing and sanding. I.e. clean the heck out of them first, and then sand. Not only will you avoid sanding grease and dirt and whatnot, but you won't be driving it even deeper into the gran.


 I missed that in the OP - good catch. Yeah, the order of those should be reversed.

Were these cabinets previously painted - or were they stained?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

+3 on the order of operations. This does happens with the Oak doors though. I use BIN then sometimes a high build waterborne like aqua lock. Usually after the first top coat, you will see any bleeding areas. Spot prime with BIN then proceed with 2nd top coat. Par for the course imo. Oak cabs are such a pain in rear.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

dillingerpaint said:


> Hey guys,
> So been doing this for 10 years now. Have several cabinet job's under my belt. But, this situation keeps plaguing me.
> Prep the cabinets like normal, prime, topcoat, and then.... Stains and loose spots pop up.
> This happen to anyone else? Sometimes it almost appears that there is grease trapped deep in the grain and after the final coat it draws it out.
> ...


Why are you using lacquer undercoater? That product is really only used on new wood on new construction jobs. To me, that's part of your problem.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

monarchski said:


> Why are you using lacquer undercoater? That product is really only used on new wood on new construction jobs. To me, that's part of your problem.


BIN is not lacquer undercoater.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> BIN is not lacquer undercoater.


 I think he said BIN and then lacquer primer? I don't get that personally if he is spraying breakthough as a top coat.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Joe67 said:


> I would switch the order of scrubbing and sanding. I.e. clean the heck out of them first, and then sand. Not only will you avoid sanding grease and dirt and whatnot, but you won't be driving it even deeper into the gran.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I dont know where the OP is in the USA but if he's in California the V-51 Breakthrough wont stick to lacquer Undercoater

I think elsewhere in the States they can still get the Better Breakthrough but not in Cali

I also dont understand using Lacquer Undercoat over Bins

I use Bin's as a Primer on new Cabinets alone,or previously stained n finished


Never Use lacquer Undercoater anymore as no Acrylics here will stick to it


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I think he said BIN and then lacquer primer? I don't get that personally if he is spraying breakthough as a top coat.


Ahhh, yes, I didn't catch that. Honestly you can eliminate all these issues by switching to Envirolak. I will post some pics of an oak cabinet job I just finished final coat today. The stuff is amazing, feels like conversion varnish, hard as nails. Finicky if surface is not cleaned, but what should be. Primer is super tough, blocks tannins, easy to sand. Water-based, easy clean up, catalyze if you want.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

As others said the order is wrong, always clean then sand. Skip the lacquer undercoater and if you see a spot bleeding after the first finish coat spot prime it with oil not bin and you'll be good to go.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

MikeCalifornia said:


> BIN is not lacquer undercoater.


He said Bin THEN Lacquer U/C.


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## Madmic (May 14, 2021)

dillingerpaint said:


> Hey guys,
> So been doing this for 10 years now. Have several cabinet job's under my belt. But, this situation keeps plaguing me.
> Prep the cabinets like normal, prime, topcoat, and then.... Stains and loose spots pop up.
> This happen to anyone else? Sometimes it almost appears that there is grease trapped deep in the grain and after the final coat it draws it out.
> ...


Overkill on primers. Why BIN? Coverstain would suffice. Also looks like some buildup there. Lightly tack off , as linseed oil from TR’s can be dragged into grain….


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## Madmic (May 14, 2021)

Madmic said:


> Overkill on primers. Why BIN? Coverstain would suffice. Also looks like some buildup there. Lightly tack off , as linseed oil from TR’s can be dragged into grain….


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## MissMary.561 (Nov 17, 2021)

dillingerpaint said:


> Hey guys,
> So been doing this for 10 years now. Have several cabinet job's under my belt. But, this situation keeps plaguing me.
> Prep the cabinets like normal, prime, topcoat, and then.... Stains and loose spots pop up.
> This happen to anyone else? Sometimes it almost appears that there is grease trapped deep in the grain and after the final coat it draws it out.
> ...


Do not use tack cloths with water based paint. Clean sand and wipe with 50% denatured alcohol and water before priming and painting.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Madmic said:


> Overkill on primers. Why BIN? Coverstain would suffice. Also looks like some buildup there. Lightly tack off , as linseed oil from TR’s can be dragged into grain….


Because BIN drys in 15 mins., sticks to everything and sprays unthinned from an hvlp.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

If your client ever used Pledge spray on the wood, that might be the culprit. Pledge contains silicone and paint won't adhere to it. 

In the mid-1970s I was a salesman for a stamping oil company. The first time I visited the headquarters I saw a sign on the front door that read (approximately) as follows:

*Oil samples containing silicone are forbidden in this building. Anyone found to bring silicone products into this building will be permanently banned from re-entry.*

Earlier Chrysler had purchased some stamping oil that was contaminated with silicone. Car panels that were stamped using that oil had paint that peeled off, especially on the roof, hood, and trunk deck. Chrysler sued the manufacturer of the oil (not the company I worked for) and had to repaint the offending cars. The repainted surfaces soon experienced the same fate.

Wiping the surface down with Prepsol (or mineral spirits) will only move the silicone around and not get rid of it. The surface has to be sanded down to the bare substrate. 

So, I would ask the customer if they ever used Pledge on their cabinet doors. There is no easy solution to this. Bringing the cabinet doors to a commercial paint stripping company might work. I don't know. The silicone might just contaminate their cleaning vats. 

For future projects, I would ask, "Have you ever used Pledge or any cleaner that has silicone as an ingredient?" If they say "yes", then reply, "In that case, we will use best practices, but we cannot guarantee perfect adhesion."






Fish Eye & Silicone – or, the Problem with Furniture Polish | Popular Woodworking


In my last posting on May 2, I mentioned that furniture polishes containing silicone have a bad reputation. Nevertheless, they are very popular with consumers. I thought I should go into a little more…




www.popularwoodworking.com





_In my last posting on May 2, I mentioned that furniture polishes containing silicone have a bad reputation. Nevertheless, they are very popular with consumers. I thought I should go into a little more explanation for this seeming contradiction, and also address some of the questions I got. _


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks Guys for all the information. The reason I use BIN is because typically it sticks to everything and blocks stains. Here lately it doesn't seem to work as good. when just by itself, you can't hardly scratch it off. But once I topcoat it seems to scratch off down to the substrate if bumped or scratched. The topcoat is adhering to primer but primer is breaking loose. 
As far as "primer overkill" my goal is to try and fill the grain without having to apply first coat of primer by hand (working into the grain). The bin was for adheason and stain blocking. The primer on top of that was SW Gen 2 universal primer. That was a recommendation from SW to help get a build to fill the grain. Nice primer but didn't help much. 

So, I understand the process of needing to clean first, but i still have a couple questions. 
1) Does anyone have stains coming from down in the grain? It doesn't show up till the first or even second finish. Actually will break the surface. Like it is drawing grease from down in the grain. What is your solution for that?
2) How do you get the paint to get down in the grain? I'm not looking to "fill" the grain, just wanting the paint to get down in the grain so i don't have pin holes and just grain cracks that are not filled. 
I would say 98% of the cabinet jobs I do are oak and never painted. Once in a while i'll come across a job where the finish on the cabinets is nice and thick and already filled a lot of the grain. But that has only happened maybe twice. I love doing cabinet jobs, but they are starting to get to me. I've had more calls this year for cabinets than ever before. It would be nice to get a foolproof system that works. 
Thanks Guys!


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Look up Envirolak, they are out of Canada and are expanding their dealers in the states. Phenomenal stuff, a massive upgrade to what you are using now and just as easy if not easier to apply.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

dillingerpaint said:


> Thanks Guys for all the information. The reason I use BIN is because typically it sticks to everything and blocks stains. Here lately it doesn't seem to work as good. when just by itself, you can't hardly scratch it off. But once I topcoat it seems to scratch off down to the substrate if bumped or scratched. The topcoat is adhering to primer but primer is breaking loose.
> As far as "primer overkill" my goal is to try and fill the grain without having to apply first coat of primer by hand (working into the grain). The bin was for adheason and stain blocking. The primer on top of that was SW Gen 2 universal primer. That was a recommendation from SW to help get a build to fill the grain. Nice primer but didn't help much.
> 
> So, I understand the process of needing to clean first, but i still have a couple questions.
> ...


BIN isn’t the greatest choice in primers under waterborne acrylics due to pH and glycol ethers potentially causing a vast array of issues w/shellac such as adhesion loss, crazing, and reduced stain blocking abilities including support induced discoloration which is the re-wetting of the substrate which results in water soluble extractives rising up through the pores. Acrylics can essentially melt shellac. Best to skip BIN for the win and use something else.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Look up Envirolak, they are out of Canada and are expanding their dealers in the states. Phenomenal stuff, a massive upgrade to what you are using now and just as easy if not easier to apply.


 So with the Envirolack, your able to fill the grain without backrolling ?👀


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> BIN isn’t the greatest choice in primers under waterborne acrylics due to pH and glycol ethers potentially causing a vast array of issues w/shellac such as adhesion loss, crazing, and reduced stain blocking abilities including support induced discoloration which is the re-wetting of the substrate which results in water soluble extractives rising up through the pores. Acrylics can essentially melt shellac. Best to skip BIN for the win and use something else.





dillingerpaint said:


> Thanks Guys for all the information. The reason I use BIN is because typically it sticks to everything and blocks stains. Here lately it doesn't seem to work as good. when just by itself, you can't hardly scratch it off. But once I topcoat it seems to scratch off down to the substrate if bumped or scratched. The topcoat is adhering to primer but primer is breaking loose.
> As far as "primer overkill" my goal is to try and fill the grain without having to apply first coat of primer by hand (working into the grain). The bin was for adheason and stain blocking. The primer on top of that was SW Gen 2 universal primer. That was a recommendation from SW to help get a build to fill the grain. Nice primer but didn't help much.
> 
> So, I understand the process of needing to clean first, but i still have a couple questions.
> ...


Lately on the Oak Cabs, I have been first spraying with BIN and then spray and backroll a coat Aqua Lock to drive into the grain. If there is anymore bleeding after the first coat which is usually minimal, it's get a shot of BIN prior to final coat. It's been working OK for me, but would like to try the Envirolak. I'm also wondering about chilling out on our sanding process. We've been hitting pretty hard with 180 grit but wondering if that is taking it down too much..


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Packard said:


> If your client ever used Pledge spray on the wood, that might be the culprit. Pledge contains silicone and paint won't adhere to it.


I've seen a LOT! of pledge problems on furniture and it never looked like that. I am fairly sure it's not a silicone problem. However, you are quite right in that silicone is a real B***H! I have often had to remove a fair amount of the substrate to get clear of the damage. The stuff caused me a lot of cussing on some pieces! I'd think I'd removed enough of the surface only to find I had to strip off the newly applied finish and start over.

Steinway made a deal with the pledge company to use it on a few of their Grand Pianos for an advertising campaign. Needless to say, all finishes were destroyed and massive lawsuits followed. I fail to understand why anybody still uses that crap!!


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Pledge has been discussed many times on this forum, same with Murphy's Oil Soap and ANY of their generic sister products.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> So with the Envirolack, your able to fill the grain without backrolling ?👀


Never had the need to backroll, unless it was brand new, but nothing is brand new oak these days. The 180-TB is a tannin blocking primer, so after sanding and burning edges it will seal those off, great bin substitute. Add the hardner or crosslinker and you have a super adhesive primer to boot. Sands super easy too. And then the finishes run circles around the normal finishes you all are using.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking. It seems like the topcoats are "rewetting" the BIN and allowing the stains to come through.
In the past it hasn't been as much of an issue but i have switched topcoats in the past few years and seems to be worse. Higher solvents in the WB topcoats i'm assuming.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Never had the need to backroll, unless it was brand new, but nothing is brand new oak these days. The 180-TB is a tannin blocking primer, so after sanding and burning edges it will seal those off, great bin substitute. Add the hardner or crosslinker and you have a super adhesive primer to boot. Sands super easy too. And then the finishes run circles around the normal finishes you all are using.



The ENVIROLACK is a water based product correct? I believe you that it works, but i'm surprised. i've never had a water based product block stains very well. I notice on their website they have a product that looks specifically for going over existing finishes, ELPRT9000. Have you tried this product or talked to them about it? will they ship it to you or do you have to get it from a local dealer?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking. It seems like the topcoats are "rewetting" the BIN and allowing the stains to come through.
> In the past it hasn't been as much of an issue but i have switched topcoats in the past few years and seems to be worse. Higher solvents in the WB topcoats i'm assuming.


What top coat are you using?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Never had the need to backroll, unless it was brand new, but nothing is brand new oak these days. The 180-TB is a tannin blocking primer, so after sanding and burning edges it will seal those off, great bin substitute. Add the hardner or crosslinker and you have a super adhesive primer to boot. Sands super easy too. And then the finishes run circles around the normal finishes you all are using.


 Can you get darker tones in Envirolak? Or are they only White/midtone colours only?..


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> What top coat are you using?


As of now SW waterborne white topcoat. Prior to that i was using Breakthrough V51-4xx. Have several cabinet and door/trim jobs out there with that stuff. Been getting a couple call backs from the finish breaking down with hand oils. The V50-4xx which is a higher voc product is superior to the lower voc line. I just could not spray it through an airless now matter what I tried. New tips, hoses, various pressures, graco tech support, ppg support, etc. Nothing worked. But all that being said, they are discontinuing that line anyways. The new v52 line is garbage in my opinion.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

dillingerpaint said:


> The ENVIROLACK is a water based product correct? I believe you that it works, but i'm surprised. i've never had a water based product block stains very well. I notice on their website they have a product that looks specifically for going over existing finishes, ELPRT9000. Have you tried this product or talked to them about it? will they ship it to you or do you have to get it from a local dealer?


Yes, its what they call in the industry a waterbase 1k, 2k polyurethane. I have not tried the 9000 as it is relatively new but seems super nice. I have been happy with the 180-tb. These are not your run of the mill waterbase primers, these are specialty items, designed for the cabinet industry and the problems that you may encounter.



finishesbykevyn said:


> Can you get darker tones in Envirolak? Or are they only White/midtone colours only?..


Yes, they use the clear to tint darker colors. We did two jobs in a row with the same color, dark brown, it was fabulous.









Envirolak 2k poly built ins







youtube.com


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Yes, its what they call in the industry a waterbase 1k, 2k polyurethane. I have not tried the 9000 as it is relatively new but seems super nice. I have been happy with the 180-tb. These are not your run of the mill waterbase primers, these are specialty items, designed for the cabinet industry and the problems that you may encounter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mike, Were those built-ins oak or a smooth wood?


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

dillingerpaint said:


> Mike, Were those built-ins oak or a smooth wood?


Those were slick by the way!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

dillingerpaint said:


> Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking. It seems like the topcoats are "rewetting" the BIN and allowing the stains to come through.
> In the past it hasn't been as much of an issue but i have switched topcoats in the past few years and seems to be worse. Higher solvents in the WB topcoats i'm assuming.


The “open thinner” image @ link below illustrates how glycol ethers in acrylic paints can readily dissolve BIN primer. The glycol ether used in the “open thinner” image was propylene glycol applied on top of 2 coats of BIN primer, then dry swabbed at 15 and 30 minute intervals, revealing the substrate beneath the partially dissolved layers of BIN. 2-butoxyethanol in the V50-4xx Breakthrough does the same to shellac which can account for the bleeding.

https://justpaint.org/wp-content/up...-hardboard-over-BIN-Shellac-Primer-Larger.jpg


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Redux said:


> The “open thinner” image @ link below illustrates how glycol ethers in acrylic paints can readily dissolve BIN primer. The glycol ether used in the “open thinner” image was propylene glycol applied on top of 2 coats of BIN primer, then dry swabbed at 15 and 30 minute intervals, revealing the substrate beneath the partially dissolved layers of BIN. 2-butoxyethanol in the V50-4xx Breakthrough does the same to shellac which can account for the bleeding.
> 
> https://justpaint.org/wp-content/up...-hardboard-over-BIN-Shellac-Primer-Larger.jpg


That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah, if the topcoat is drying over the bin I can scratch/rub a spot and take it all the way to the substrate.
Very Informative.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

dillingerpaint said:


> Mike, Were those built-ins oak or a smooth wood?


They were cherry, stained dark red.


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