# Cedar Shake nightmare.



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Am bidding on a job for one of the areas premier custom builders. All the talk on cedar shakes and what do I get today? A set of plans with cedar shakes on the exterior.

After following the posts about Jason's problem, rather than send a pm, thought VP (if willing) could share his experience with the forum.

VP; You were telling Jason about the pitfalls of both oil and latex primers as well as coating "wet" shakes.

Here is my dilema;

House is one block from the Severn River outside Annapolis, MD.

Aura exterior is spec'd. 

Summers here are brutally humid.

What procedures would you incorporate to give the customer the best job?

What primer and why?

Thanks in advance for sharing this info. (if you decide to)


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Red or white cedar?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Clear western red.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I would highly recommend, for a number of reasons, that you encourage the builder to get the shakes factory dipped (oil). Then do your two coats of Aura. This eliminates just about all the issues I pointed out in Jasons thread.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I would highly recommend, for a number of reasons, that you encourage the builder to get the shakes factory dipped (oil). Then do your two coats of Aura. This eliminates just about all the issues I pointed out in Jasons thread.


 
He wont do that because that will triple the price of the stock. Save money, spec a expensive paint (I bet he doent have a clue about anything about Aura except the price) and blame the painter for failure.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> He wont do that because that will triple the price of the stock. Save money, spec a expensive paint (I bet he doent have a clue about anything about Aura except the price) and blame the painter for failure.


I would not go that far. This is a guy (know him personally, family did his work years ago) that is all about quality. If I can demostrate the value, they would consider it.

Where can I find out more about factory dipped?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

If they are factory dipped, is it in a humidity controlled enviroment?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> I would not go that far. This is a guy (know him personally, family did his work years ago) that is all about quality. If I can demostrate the value, they would consider it.
> 
> Where can I find out more about factory dipped?


Ok ....sorry. 

http://www.michiganprestain.com/landing/cedar-shingles2.htm?gclid=CKL5mLiC1pkCFcZM5QodSyJ6YQ


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

The problem for you would be if he is willing to invest into pre-primed shingles why not go all the way and get pre finsihed? Between the price for painting and the increase in stock you might loose work.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Ok ....sorry.
> 
> No reason to be. You have always been helpful and that was what you were trying to do.:thumbup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> I would not go that far. This is a guy (know him personally, family did his work years ago) that is all about quality. If I can demostrate the value, they would consider it.
> 
> Where can I find out more about factory dipped?


bb

The bottom line is that the shakes have to be dipped prior to installation for any kind of success. I don't feel like typing all the reasons, but this is a must. Cost wise, it is dirt cheap at the factory. We have done a fair amount of dipping and I can tell you exactly how many square one person can dip in a day. Also, it is one of the most miserable tasks in the paint shop. We dont do it much. And coincidentally, it can be done at the factory for a fraction of the price. 

Find out who your builder's supplier is on the shakes - either a supplier through the lumber yard he deals with, or some other non-local source he orders from. Contact them and ask what they are using for ext oil primer on shingles. Usually its Cabot. This would eliminate the siding priming from the line items in your estimate and contract. Also, relieves you of liability in the primer/substrate coat. Build that in as a contract clause, as well as relief from liability for naturally occuring issues related to the substrate (cupping, warping, expansion, contraction, capillary action, checking, deflection as a result of uv, humidity, moisture, elements etc.). One important matter to build in on a high end job is that if they do install with a factory dipped prime, you need to apply your first topcoat within 30 days of installation. If they cannot create that opportunity, you must recommend repriming on the house prior to application of your two coats. 

If they are factory dipped, it should be in a controlled environment. The more important issue is that they havent been loaded, tarped and transported to a lumber yard where they sit in a lean to absorbing moisture and wind driven rain. Nothing holds moisture like a bundle of shingles. If its done at the factory, you eliminate alot of variables that compromise finish, and your liability in the case of failure is greatly reduces, with proper contract clauses. Hope this helps.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> The problem for you would be if he is willing to invest into pre-primed shingles why not go all the way and get pre finsihed? Between the price for painting and the increase in stock you might loose work.


This is the beauty. Factories offer about 2 colors generally. Custom homes are rarely white, gray or beige. Also, corners are often weaved, and there are exposed nailheads, and a large house takes a long time to build so it gets very dirty during construction, etc etc etc.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> This is the beauty. Factories offer about 2 colors generally. Custom homes are rarely white, gray or beige. Also, corners are often weaved, and there are exposed nailheads, and a large house takes a long time to build so it gets very dirty during construction, etc etc etc.


Ive done quite a few homes with Maybeck's and weaved corners. Simple touch up and your done. They come in a cardboard box, by the square. The sidewaller's are bringing the boxes up with them and siding away. No damage. A high end large home you would expect a better range of subs including sidewallers.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Ive done quite a few homes with Maybeck's and weaved corners. Simple touch up and your done. They come in a cardboard box, by the square. The sidewaller's are bringing the boxes up with them and siding away. No damage. A high end large home you would expect a better range of subs including sidewallers.


I do believe it could be done that way.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Whats a sidewaller?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> Whats a sidewaller?


I think its a guy who stripes tires :blink:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Bender said:


> Whats a sidewaller?


slang for crews that side houses ...side - wall - er


----------



## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

Bikerboy,
here's another resource for you. UFP is a pre-stain customer of mine here in Cali. They ship all over and their service is great!

http://www.unityforest.com/PreFinishing.aspx

http://www.unityforest.com/staff.aspx

Their sales staff is extremely knowledgeable. They will use any spec'd product also.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Scott or NEPS, do they backbrush after they dip at the factory? I would almost thing dipping in primer and not backbrushing would result in too much mil thickness (aligatoring and cracking) and poor adhesion.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Yes. Dipping is like sticking your foot in a 5er, you have to brush, rag or something all the excess back into the pail. Thats part of what makes it so time consuming.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes. Dipping is like sticking your foot in a 5er, you have to brush, rag or something all the excess back into the pail. Thats part of what makes it so time consuming.


Right, I am sure if you or I were to dip something we would do this. I was asking if they did this at the factory still.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

YubaPaintPro said:


> Bikerboy,
> here's another resource for you. UFP is a pre-stain customer of mine here in Cali. They ship all over and their service is great!
> 
> http://www.unityforest.com/PreFinishing.aspx
> ...


Thanks Yuba! :thumbsup:


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Looking at a Cedar Shake job now, anything new to add?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> Looking at a Cedar Shake job now, anything new to add?


Nothing really, but its fun to see that in '09 I used to actually contribute around here. It was fun to help bikerboy. He was very appreciative and has helped me many times as well. Thats the true beauty of this place.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes. Dipping is like sticking your foot in a 5er, you have to brush, rag or something all the excess back into the pail. Thats part of what makes it so time consuming.


 Brings back horrible memories. So glad most GC's use hardee in my area now.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Brings back horrible memories. So glad most GC's use hardee in my area now.


For sure. You have to be very careful who you put on dip duty. There are a couple of guys here who could use about a month of it to get their heads figured out. :jester:


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I just did a high end home that had preprimed reds, the best shingles (forget the brand) and it said right on the box to NOT use water based paints or stains(unless oil priming again) even thought they were preprimed.....I had a thread about Aborcoat here about it. Anyway I tried a sample with the waterborne and it bled. I ended up doing another coat of oil primer then 1 coat acrylic.....worked fine, no bleed. 
I am curious how the 2 coats of Aura look over the factory prime after a couple years or even before. And that must void any warranty, right?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Slingah said:


> I just did a high end home that had preprimed reds, the best shingles (forget the brand) and it said right on the box to NOT use water based paints or stains(unless oil priming again) even thought they were preprimed.....I had a thread about Aborcoat here about it. Anyway I tried a sample with the waterborne and it bled. I ended up doing another coat of oil primer then 1 coat acrylic.....worked fine, no bleed.
> I am curious how the 2 coats of Aura look over the factory prime after a couple years or even before. And that must void any warranty, right?


XIM has a great additive for cedar to prevent bleeding.


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> XIM has a great additive for cedar to prevent bleeding.


good to know...:thumbsup:


----------

