# Lead Insurance



## DeanV

Sounds like the rider for lead/pollution insurance will be an additional $1,500 for the year. Sounds like it is based on annual sales, not $ from pre-78 homes. Now, to figure out if I will do enough pre-78 homes to buy the insurance or skip it say forget pre-78.


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## RCP

If you can find an agent that knows what you are talking about and can find a rider!

Just keeps gettin' better huh!?

Something to think about though is

"How many lead paint homes have you worked on in the past?" 

Many of this has been regulated by OHSA for years, we may have exposed our employees, customers, own children?


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## brushmonkey

$1500.00 on top of existing policies?? that's insane! I'm waiting for my agent to get back to me with the numbers. This crazy rule is going to make it outrageously expensive for HO"s with older homes to do anything. :wallbash: Not to worry, illegals will fill the void! Gotta love the EPA


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## Workaholic

Worst part about this law I see is that the over all cost for what was once a routine and moderatly inexpensive way to improve the home is now going to drive a lot of HO's into cutting the corner and doing the project themselves. 
That and you can't get a straight answer from 2 people that will be consistant is pretty wacked for a law that will be in affect very shortly.

Edit: Just like with most aspects of the new law to come I have not heard a straight answer on the insurance either, it seems that nobody know anything as of yet.


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## Burt White

Bend over and get the K Y it's gonna be a fun ride.:thumbup:


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## Burt White

It's gonna put alot of small legit guys out of business


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## brushmonkey

Especially if you restore Victorians or turn of the century homes. Theres alot of companies in Portland specializing in that niche. Why the sudden madness on lead paint?? I grew up in the 60s & 70s eating paint chips by the bucket & Im just fine,_ except_ for the twitching and sudden screaming of obscenities at HO's from my turrets. :laughing:


Burt White said:


> It's gonna put alot of small legit guys out of business


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## DeanV

The info. came from my insurance guy, unsolicited by me. He said that to get the insurance, you need to have taken the course.

If the insurance is spread over my annual sales, it is not a deal breaker. But, I think a higher hourly wage is in order for pre-78 stuff in addition to the additional labor and material costs.

IF (notice the big if), they enforce this law, it is going to be bad even for those of us who took the course. If they do not enforce it, those of us who took the class, got the insurance, lost the bids to non compliant companies, etc are going to be really upset and justifiably so.


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## Mark58

EPA is not supposed to enforce the rules for awhile (a year or more) but when lawyers see the potential for civil suits,,,they will be chasing contractors like they chase ambulances


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## RCP

Mark58 said:


> EPA is not supposed to enforce the rules for awhile (a year or more) but when lawyers see the potential for civil suits,,,they will be chasing contractors like they chase ambulances


I don't agree about the enforcing part, they are going to need the revenue from fines and wanting to make examples.

I do agree about the lawyers, I can see the commercial now " Have you been exposed to Lead Paint, Call now!"


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## Mark58

Chris, 
I listened to an attorney online (on Remodeling Mag's website) who specializes in this area. He said that EPA knows that there will be huge non-compliance with the regulations in the first year and that he believes they will not enforce in the first year or longer. He did warn that as attorney's find out more on this matter that there will be more civil suits popping up. 
This whole matter is crazy- it makes you wonder who is really driving this?


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## DeanV

Let's see. A rule written probably by lawyers that has enough gray areas to drive a Ocean going freighter through and make life miserable for contractors while HO's chosing not to follow the rule remain unpenalized. Add in civil suits and I know for sure who loses here.


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## NEPS.US

just say no


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## DeanV

But what if this is the opportunity to work in the midwest at rates we only hear of from you east coast guys? 

Maybe this will open the door to Shangri-La and a reversal of the usually supply and demand economics us painters deal with? 

A surplus of pre-78 homes and a limited supply of contractors to work on them?


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## NEPS.US

If that's the case then the $1500 for the insurance is only the first step into properly marketing and differentiating yourself. If this really is a golden opportunity then I say strike while the iron is hot and invest now. If I was in the position to aquire this type of work and make it my primary source of income then now would be the time to re-invent your company. I think this will provide a great opportunity for many contractors, and hopefully the EPA will follow through with enforcing the laws they create.


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## vermontpainter

George is gettin UPSET!


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## DeanV

I really do not think it is going to be a boon for business, but hey, you never know. I really do not feel comfortable with the potential liability for someone that shows elevated lead levels after painting was done.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> I really do not think it is going to be a boon for business, but hey, you never know. I really do not feel comfortable with the potential liability for someone that shows elevated lead levels after painting was done.


I'm not liking the look and sound of all this so far.


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## Rcon

Are you Americans still allowed to use pencils?


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## vermontpainter

Rcon said:


> Are you Americans still allowed to use pencils?


We switched to graphite in '79.


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## RCP

It is going to be interesting for sure. 
Supposedly the EPA is going to roll out some Consumer Awareness Programs, although I doubt it will be on the same scale as the "digital decoder box" campaign, remember those commercials every 5 minutes?

I agree with Dean, if you are in an area that has a lot of pre 78 homes, have educated consumers and are the only CLR around, it could be a great opportunity.


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## DeanV

Could you imagine if actual lead was in our pencils? We would be as dumb as Canadians!!! (just kidding Rcon).


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## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> It is going to be interesting for sure.
> Supposedly the EPA is going to roll out some Consumer Awareness Programs, although I doubt it will be on the same scale as the "digital decoder box" campaign, remember those commercials every 5 minutes?
> 
> I agree with Dean, if you are in an area that has a lot of pre 78 homes, have educated consumers and are the only CLR around, it could be a great opportunity.


*Consumer Awareness*: 

Dear Homeowner, 

Lead paint is a serious risk in homes built prior to 1978. If you or anyone in your neighborhood or family are having any work done by a contractor, and you suspect that proper lead abatement strategies are not being used to protect your family's health, please take photographs and submit them to: www.badcontractor.com along with the work site location, and name of all people involved in the work. 

For a comprehensive list of practices to observe in any contractor you may see, click Here. 

Regards
EPA


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## msmil

*Lead in Your Pencil*

By Karl S. Kruszelnicki
Lead is a grey or silver-white soft metal. We've been using lead for thousands of years, because it's so useful. Unfortunately, lead is quite toxic to humans, which is why we have mostly replaced it with less toxic metals. Even so, many people still believe the mythconception that there is lead in lead pencils.
For tens of thousands of years, our ancestors drew on cave walls with burnt coals or sticks. By some 3,500 years ago, in the XVIIIth Dynasty in Egypt, the technology had advanced from burnt sticks to a thin paint brush around 15-20 cm long. The brush gave a fine wet dark line. A fine line is good, but wet is messy.
About 2,000 years ago, the Greeks and the Romans realised that a sharpened lump of lead would mark papyrus with a dry light line. A dry line is good, but light is hard to see.
The beauty of the modern pencil is that it combines the best qualities of the paint brush and the lump of metal in one product. The modern pencil makes a line that is very useful because it is both dry (so it doesn't run) and dark (so it's easy to see). 
The modern "lead-free" lead pencil first appeared in the 1500s, in Borrowdale, in the Cumberland Lakes District of England. The legend has it that a large tree blew over, and the local shepherds noticed a black material clinging to the roots. They tried to burn it, thinking that it was coal - but it would not burn. But they quickly found a use for it in marking their sheep. 
The shepherds had discovered graphite, which is actually a variety of carbon. But at the time they thought it was just a variety of lead, so they called it Black Lead. 
We know that Black Lead was not commonly used in pencils by 1540, because in that year, the Italian writing master, Giovanbattista Palatino, wrote a book describing what he thought would be "all the tools that a good scribe must have." His book did not mention anything that looked like a pencil, or contained graphite. But 25 years later, in 1565, Konrad Gesner, a Swiss naturalist and physician, wrote a book on fossils. In his book, he describes and makes a drawing of a new writing instrument that seems to be the first primitive Black Lead pencil. Lead pencils were now about to make their mark.
In 1609, a character in Ben Jonson's play Epicoene describes some mathematical instruments including "his square, his compasses, his brass pens, and black-lead to draw maps." In 1622, in Nuremberg, Friedrich Staedtler became the first person to mass-produce pencils. In 1683, Sir John Pettus wrote a book on metallurgy in which he described the Borrowdale mine as producing a type of lead, which was exploited by painters, surgeons and writers. Painters drew their preliminary sketches with it, surgeons used this "Black Lead" medicinally, while writers rejoiced in this new instrument that freed them from having to carry a bottle of ink.
For a few centuries after its discovery, the Borrowdale Black Lead remained the highest-quality deposit ever found. Besides its painting, writing and medical applications, graphite had very important strategic military functions in casting cannon balls and other metal objects. So on 26th of March, 1752, the House of Commons passed a bill entitled, "An Act for the More Effectual Securing Mines of Black Lead from Theft and Robbery". This Act made it a felony, punishable by hard labour and/or transportation to the colonies, to steal this high quality graphite. 
The English would not let their enemies use the pure Borrowdale graphite for many years. It took until 1795, and the urging of Napoleon, before Nicolas-Jacques Conté finally worked out a method to convert low-quality graphite into a fine writing material. He ground low-quality graphite very finely, mixed it with finely-ground clay, fired the mixture at high temperatures, and finished by adding wax before inserting it into skinny wooden cases. In 1832, a pencil factory started operations near the Borrowdale graphite supply. In 1916, it became the Cumberland Pencil Factory, which produced the Derwent pencils so much loved by school children.
However, even though writing pencils made of graphite were first used around 1565, writing pencils that used lead were still in very common use in the 18th century. Why? Because they were cheaper, even if they were toxic. But, you certainly wouldn't want to suck on a "lead" pencil if it really had lead in it. In fact, lead pencils became extinct only in the early 20th century.
The modern lead pencil is a very nice technology. It is entirely self-contained, it uses no messy liquids such as ink, it can write a continuous line for some 35 kilometres, it makes a well-defined mark that is relatively smudge-proof, and it is easy to erase. 
Today we have glasses made of plastic, tins made of aluminium, and golfing irons made of titanium. So it really shouldn't bother us that the "lead" in your pencil is made of graphite.

Published 09 September 2004


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## msmil

http://www.leadsheetassociation.org.uk/html/1195.html


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## jem

Who offers a ryder for $1500? My primary carrier will not cover lead paint. I've been shopping and received quotes from two companies, both have yearly premiums of $2500. When taxes and other fees are added one totaled $3,300 the other $2685.


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## painttofish

DeanV said:


> A surplus of pre-78 homes and a limited supply of contractors to work on them?


Unfortunately I would bet that there will still be plenty of so called "painting contractors" willing to work on these homes and take the risk of "possible enforcement".


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## brushmonkey

My insurance agent said she's never even_ heard_ of the new law! Getting coverage is going to be a fun & enlightening experience...cant wait!:jester:


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## DeanV

When I get more details on the policy, I will let you all know.


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## RCP

Mine said a "pollution rider" would start at $2500.


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## DeanV

That is what they called it. I hope I heard right at $1500. If sales are more than 1 million, it is more, but I seriously doubt most of us need to worry about that threshold.


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## johnthepainter

Burt White said:


> It's gonna put alot of small legit guys out of business


its gonna put a lot of small illegals in business.


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## NEPS.US

high fibre said:


> its gonna put a lot of small illegals in business.


 
Here is you million dollar contractor right here, Dean!!!!


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## DeanV

That would be one way to do it I suppose!


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## brushmonkey

I wonder, does anything happen to the HO (fines etc.) if they knowingly hire illegal contractors to do lead work?


high fibre said:


> its gonna put a lot of small illegals in business.


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## NEPS.US

brushmonkey said:


> I wonder, does anything happen to the HO (fines etc.) if they knowingly hire illegal contractors to do lead work?


We could only wish and hope.


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## johnthepainter

that would be a step in the right direction.


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## jem

That is wishful thinking. What a revolt their would be if the government tried to tell HOs what they have to do with their own property. The regs only apply to anyone who does renovation work for compensation. Unless the the HOs have dealt with lead poisoning in their families, most don't/won't have a clue about the effects of lead and don't/won't know or care about the EPA rules. It's after we have done the work and down the road a family member is tested with high lead blood levels that the regs will be important to them. Then we will have to prove that we followed the safe work practices and our work was not the source of the poisoning. The contractors who are not registered and/or cannot prove they followed safe work and clean up proceedures will be the ones to pay the fines and go to jail.


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## NEPS.US

But, there should be a level of accountability toward anyone that knowingly hires a contractor to illegally do work to save money. Any home pre 1978 should have to have a permit pulled for any type of renovation work including painting. How else can the EPA really govern these new laws?

I am not a fan of more permits and fee's, but the problem I have with this whole thing is that the government has come up with yet another reason to make business more expensive to operate and I doubt they will be governing the acts done by contractors performing illegal work. If they make a law they need to enforce it to make it economically safe for contractors to follow the laws. Until then there will be endless stories about contractors performing illegal, cheap work. Those of us that run a legal operation will be the ones to suffer.


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