# Painting Pine black and blocking tannin



## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

My name is Corey and I make country pine furniture. I am new to the forum but have been reading this for years. I have been using zinser sanding sealer to block tannin but with the recent tsunami in Japan the price has increased and I would like to get away from ethanol anyway. My shop is attached to the house so oil paints are out of the question.
I am willing to give up the ppg breakthrough paint I am using as it crackles when used on top of zinser seal coat and smart prime. I have also had a hard time not getting over-spay lines in the paint even with adding an extender. Any help would be appreciated. I spray with a three stage turbine so thin viscosities is a plus. Waterborne preferred.


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## SoCal Paint (Nov 7, 2011)

What's the desired final finish coat? (Color and gloss level)


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I would like to have a black satin finish. Thanks
Images of my furniture are in my web site if you care to take a look. www.yankee-woodworks.com


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Waterbornes are only going to take you so far with quality of finish.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

With an HVLP


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

I took a look at your site, and you do beautiful work! Is there any way you could add some ventilation to your shop so that you could use oil? As far as a finish goes, how about BM alkyd enamel undercoater top coated with BM Advance satin? I personally don't think that the enamel undercoater has a bad smell and I have been pretty impressed by Advance. Cabinet Coat by Insul-X might not be a bad alternative, but I can't speak to how well it sprays.


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Szyikowski said:


> My name is Corey and I make country pine furniture. I am new to the forum but have been reading this for years. I have been using zinser sanding sealer to block tannin but with the recent tsunami in Japan the price has increased and I would like to get away from ethanol anyway. My shop is attached to the house so oil paints are out of the question.
> I am willing to give up the ppg breakthrough paint I am using as it crackles when used on top of zinser seal coat and smart prime. I have also had a hard time not getting over-spay lines in the paint even with adding an extender. Any help would be appreciated. I spray with a three stage turbine so thin viscosities is a plus. Waterborne preferred.


Ive been using breakthrough for a while now and my local paint rep told me that the surface you are painting with breakthrough needs to be aged for it to adhere properly. Its best when priming to let the primer cure for a couple weeks. With breakthrough you can pretty much go straight to raw surfaces, like wood, clear finished surfaces, laminate, and metal when its not going to be in a wet area. Ive done adhesion test(wait 24hrs..hash marks..yellow masking tape) on those surfaces and all have stuck. The crackling might be from an un-aged primer reacting to the breakthrough. You can thin breakthrough with water. You wouldn't want to use floetrol because it will soften the paint. You never want to use it with hard drying paint coatings. Pine isnt know for having tannin issues. Why not just use B.I.N and have the shellac and primer in one. Shellac is expensive theses days is the bug that is used in the production of shellac is not breading and the one type of tree that it lives on is dieing off. Its from india. In all try using the breakthrough on a raw piece of wood to see for yourself. Its a great product when its used right.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Is breakthrough a waterborne alkyd?


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## SoCal Paint (Nov 7, 2011)

You may want to look at what waterborne lacquers are available in your market in satin black. S.W Kem Aqua, M.L Campbell, or comparable over the top of a water based wood primer that sands to a powder might be an option to consider.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

SoCal Paint said:


> You may want to look at what waterborne lacquers are available in your market in satin black. S.W Kem Aqua, M.L Campbell, or comparable over the top of a water based wood primer that sands to a powder might be an option to consider.


Is kem Aqua avail in black?


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Julian&co said:


> Is breakthrough a waterborne alkyd?


No its really not..it acts like more like a waterborne lacquer. I say that because it drys so quick and you can recoat it fast too. Sands really well with in a couple hours of drying.


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Julian&co said:


> Is kem Aqua avail in black?


Cant they tint it with 896 colorants if not?


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

I didn't know if it was avail in all the bases


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

paintguy86 said:


> No its really not..it acts like more like a waterborne lacquer. I say that because it drys so quick and you can recoat it fast too. Sands really well with in a couple hours of drying.


Even with the fast drying the finish quality is real nice as well?


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Julian&co said:


> Even with the fast drying the finish quality is real nice as well?


It is.the down side of the quick dry time is, spray application is best.you can brush/roll but its hard to keep a wet edge.thin 10% with water to help with a wet edge. Spray is the best way.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Wow, I am glad to see that my question is generating some responses. 

In response to some of the post above.

Yes pine has a lot of tannin in it. I can actually see it on raw boards. It is ghostly white color,and follows the grain pattern of the wood. Unfortunately I can't see it all the time. It may be a little different than the tannin that painters generally refer to on exterior woods.

PPG Breakthrough is an awesome product which I would love to continue to use. It is water based so the smell is tolerable, dries so fast that I can move my furniture around in less then 25 min, ridiculously hard and scratch resistant when cured. The problem I am having is finding a compatible tannin blocking primer preferably water based. Zinser sanding sealer, and Zinser smart prime both cracked the paint. 36 hours is the max I am willing to pait for primer to cure.

The other problem is spraying the breakthrough. I can not seam to spray it fast enough to keep the entire surface wet. Any over-spray does not blend in and looks completely different. I can get over-spray on wet paint that was just sprayed 10 sec prior. I have been able to put an extender in about 1.5 oz per quart. It has helped but not enough. If i go any more it sags really bad. It may be the fact that I am using a three stage turbine and the warm air is accelerating the dry time. 

I would love to be able to exhaust my garage however I am in Syracuse NY and can not afford the heat loss of venting during the winter. Some time when I am painting furniture I might spray for three hours straight.

I have just been contacted by a S.W. industrial rep that is going to stop by my shop and do some brain storming of my situation. Right out the box he was thinking the aqua kem would be a good choice. I will fill you in when he stops over.

Thank again every one for the help. It nice to talk to people who don't feed you a line of BS like the Box Stores do.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I just looked at the aqua kem pigmented paint system on the S.W. web site. Any body have any input on its primers ability to block tannin or about its top coat finish.


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Szyikowski said:


> Wow, I am glad to see that my question is generating some responses.
> 
> In response to some of the post above.
> 
> ...


Is the ghostly white color shinny?


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

paintguy86 said:


> Is the ghostly white color shinny?


 no it is more flat than shinny. I have seen these tannins probably thirty times or so. The sanding sealer does a great job of blocking it with two coats hand brushed on. I got lazy and only put one coat on and had some light tannins show. Before I started using the sealer i had tannins show that were sometimes two feet long. you could rub them out but they would return. At that time i was using latex wall paint. glidden and behr. It is not sap and they can be found no ware near a knot. How ever they are more likely were there is a lot of change in the grain. Probably from the wood soaking up the moisture from the paint in return releasing the tannin.


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## paintguy86 (Aug 6, 2011)

Only pigmented shellac covers in one coat. Clear shellac needs two coats to block because they have less flake shellac per pound.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Does anyone know if the Kem Aqua pigmented lacquer primer blocks tannin bleed or anything else about the product? I have search high and low and can't find much info from people who have actually used the product.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I have discovered one of my major problems. The crackling of the breakthrough was not the paints fault.It was mine. The local paint store said to add Benjamin Moore paint extender to the breakthrough. It works fine on raw wood but crackles on top of primer and metal. I thinned with water and it was much better. I now need to find out how much to cut it. I am once again a fan of ppg. breakthrough


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## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

Try some XIM UMA primer and add some XIM additive for tannin bleed.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

I have not found a satisfactory waterborne primer for tannin bleed, and I have tried over half a dozen between Zinsser, BM and PPG. BIN is my go to for tannin blocking, but as you say it's not always easy to see before hand what s going to bleed later. Next best is an oil primer, preferably slow dry. the sucky thing about BIN is that it has little flexabily and isn't good for large areas.

I have used lacquer in a pinch for blocking knots with good results, but I'll usually go with a couple coats.

Still havent found,that waterborne magic bullet. If you do, let me know.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I am going to stick with two coats of zinser smart prime for now. I just sprayed seven large pieces of furniture black with 2 prime coats and 2coats of the breakthrough. Looks great and no signs of tannin. I would normally start to see it with in3 to 12 hrs. It has been 36 and no sign yet. I will post again if i see Amy changes. The summers heat and humidity might be a different story. FYI smart prime by zinser is almost oderless.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Well i just delivered all the pieces and no tannin bleeds as of yet. Normally i would have seen them if they were going to show.


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Szyikowski said:


> Well i just delivered all the pieces and no tannin bleeds as of yet. Normally i would have seen them if they were going to show.


Very nice work what kind of break through are you using .


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

PPG Wrought Iron Black sheen is satin. V57-90


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

Do you put a clear on top of the breakthrough. I am doing a table with your exact system? Thanks.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Tannins are water soluable extractives that are a by product of the metabolic process of a tree. Tannin is tree waste. Tannins are dissolvable in water and found in redwoods and cedar. Pine is a pitch or resin that is solvent soluable. Oil base primers can activate pitch the same way water based primers can activate tannin. If the pitch is not properly "set" at the kiln drying process, it will continue to leach out no matter what u put over it. Tannins will also bleed depending how close to the heartwood the cut was and what the moisture content of the wood is. Most woods need to acclimate to their environment to stabilize. Changing the environment changes the dimensional stability and can make wood bleed or pitch after it was quiet.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Well back to square one. All pine furniture, all primed with smart prime (2 coats), half the furniture looks good the second is crackled. Paint black Iron v57-90. The furniture from the first gallon did great. Opened a new gallon and upped the water from 8oz. to 10oz. which is within the limits. Ever thing thing from that point on crackled. Either it is the paint (by the gallon), the water or the combonation of paint and primer. Getting a bit pissed that makes 10 pieces of furniture messed up. The gallons of paint were purchased at different times. 

As far as the tannin goes. Maybe I have the wrong term but what ever it is. it is water activated, white in color as is comes through the 2 layers of primer and two layers of paint. So far so good with smart prime. It is almost ghost like. 

I don't use a top coat, my paint supplier used a breakthrough clear on their wood counter and said it was awesome. I must say it was in good shape considering how many gallon of paint a day go over that counter.

I really like the breakthrough but this is getting ridiculous. Please if you have any info on this share.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Just a thought, could it be insufficient mixing of the water and the paint?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

What is the moisture content of the wood? Are you checking it with a moisture meter? 

Are you thinning the smart prime? I would assume so given the turbine. 

Almost sounds like a contaminant issue. Not sure what it could be though. 

Sounds like a very frustrating problem.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Szyikowski said:


> Well back to square one. All pine furniture, all primed with smart prime (2 coats), half the furniture looks good the second is crackled. Paint black Iron v57-90. The furniture from the first gallon did great. Opened a new gallon and upped the water from 8oz. to 10oz. which is within the limits. Ever thing thing from that point on crackled. Either it is the paint (by the gallon), the water or the combonation of paint and primer. Getting a bit pissed that makes 10 pieces of furniture messed up. The gallons of paint were purchased at different times.
> 
> As far as the tannin goes. Maybe I have the wrong term but what ever it is. it is water activated, white in color as is comes through the 2 layers of primer and two layers of paint. So far so good with smart prime. It is almost ghost like.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a job for......... _*Orange Shellac*_ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

For a fix, shellac. The smell is gone very quickly. But....I would like to find out what exactly is happening though, as I've been following this thread from the start....


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

kdpaint said:


> For a fix, shellac. The smell is gone very quickly. But....I would like to find out what exactly is happening though, as I've been following this thread from the start....


Soooooorieee !. geeze. picky picky picky:whistling2::whistling2::thumbsup:


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I do not thin the primer at all however it is tinted to a light tan color. I doubt it is a moisture problem as the crackle is consistent across the entire piece. Some of the same boards used in other pieces turned out fine. I have the same problem with zinser sanding sealer. It was not as drastic as this but happened any where there was a knot or sag in the sealer, thicker spots.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

No offense Scotia, I agree with the shellac plan, and I would do it if it were my situation, but Szylikowki's "ghosting" issue has intrigued my overly analytical mind....


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Where is Wolverine or some of our other chemist types?


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

kdpaint said:


> No offense Scotia, I agree with the shellac plan, and I would do it if it were my situation, but Szylikowki's "ghosting" issue has intrigued my overly analytical mind....


most everybody here knows I don't get offended:no:. you can take my feelings out and beat em with a stick and - nothing.:blink:. just trying to raise your hackles.:yes:. This "ghosting" is a good issue to resolve, go to er !:thumbsup:. There're a bunch of variables to consider but, as you say our chemist pals here could address this a whole lot bettern me - I'm just a dumb ol painter!:yes:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Who you gonna call?Ghostbusters!!!!!:jester:


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

mudbone said:


> Who you gonna call?Ghostbusters!!!!!:jester:


Arrrrrgh that's lame - even for you!:yes:


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

I am trying to to get away from the shallac as it's future is unknown and the possibility of explosion. I typically spray around 8 decent size pieces at a time. I can't maintain my heat if I exhaust outside. My shop is only 600 square feet so it gets pretty concentrated in their quickly. I have used about 30 gal. of shallac before and it is an awesome product. With that said I am leaning toward primers because they build a thicker layer and help the look of my furniture. smart prime has been working great for blocking the tannin so far, but may not be compatible with the breakthrough.


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## painterman (Jun 2, 2007)

I would call XIM and talk to one of the paint chemists there. They know there stuff.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Even though the lable sais you can put 12 oz. of water per gallon that is b.s. I backed it down from 10 oz to 8 oz and all is well again. Of course the primer is playing a roll in this as well. The primer is tinted which may make the watered down breakthrough crackle easier because it is slicker.


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Well I now have ppg working on it. I will post their findings.


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

I was handed this by the maintenance fella at the apartments where we are doing repaints, I need to prime and coat some kitchen cabinets, have never used kwal, primer especially an acrylic primer undercoater like this one, so questions are:

1. Is this gonna do the job to prime and bond the kitchen cabinets ?

2. It will be a kwal semi gloss as top coat, don't ask ! 

3. I will be using my new pro shot to spray both the primer and the semi gloss ( acrylic) has anyone sprayed this stuff before ? Is there anything I need heads up about?

Cheers


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## Szyikowski (Jan 19, 2012)

Ppg sais they can't replicate the problem. Bummer. Unfortunately I have three times!!!


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

That blows. I was interested in this problem...not as interested as you perhaps, but still.....


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## drcustom (May 23, 2009)

tint the shellac with dyes.


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## drcustom (May 23, 2009)

for the cabinets...XIM tinted towards your color. wash them well with xylene first! love XIM!


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## Cherry Pie and Roses (Jul 10, 2012)

Have you heard of Annie Sloan Chalk Paint? Does not require priming (even over old finishes). Dries quickly and finishes great with her waxes. Google around and see some of her work and that of her product users. Not cheap but it goes a long way.


CP&R


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## MNpainter (Jul 17, 2008)

mpminter said:


> I took a look at your site, and you do beautiful work! Is there any way you could add some ventilation to your shop so that you could use oil? As far as a finish goes, how about BM alkyd enamel undercoater top coated with BM Advance satin? I personally don't think that the enamel undercoater has a bad smell and I have been pretty impressed by Advance. Cabinet Coat by Insul-X might not be a bad alternative, but I can't speak to how well it sprays.


The BM alkyd undercoater has been my go to product for 26 yrs. better hold out and way better build than zinser or kilz steve


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)




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## -ganja- (Aug 2, 2012)

there are some really cool waterborne plant oil based stains available from a company called timberpro in oregon you may want to check them out.


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

drcustom said:


> for the cabinets...XIM tinted towards your color. wash them well with xylene first! love XIM!


Yup XIM is my new love !


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

Cherry Pie and Roses said:


> Have you heard of Annie Sloan Chalk Paint? Does not require priming (even over old finishes). Dries quickly and finishes great with her waxes. Google around and see some of her work and that of her product users. Not cheap but it goes a long way.
> 
> CP&R


Cheers for that cherry pie i will have a look, have you used this?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Finn said:


> Cheers for that cherry pie i will have a look, have you used this?


Considering they were plugging the product line and only have one post, they are a rep or owner. So, yea, they have probably used it. Maybe. 

Finn, you really need to figure out how to start new threads with your questions, i have no idea you are asking for help when you need it, I just stumble across you questions months down the road when I reread rehashed old threads.


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