# Acrylic Clear coat gurus-



## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I have a paneled sunroom that needs some color work, but mostly a freshen up coat overall. It looks like it might have been originally done with watco or else a real lo build almost matte varnish. 
Being winter and in an older couples house, I would like to not oil it out, even though I know that might be the easiest and best- but can this be coated with something that is very lo sheen (?suggestions) - need it to adhere and not look like a plastic coat. And stay open enough to apply. 
Whaddaya think? 

Fairly thin P & L "Dull" acrylic is my best shot ATM.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Are you painting the paneling or applying another clear coat?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I think its a bad idea if it is cold in your state. Unless its heated nice and warm.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Lamb- another clear

Vermont- it's warm inside! I brought up the cold because oil fumes have no where to go.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> Lamb- another clear
> 
> Vermont- it's warm inside! I brought up the cold because oil fumes have no where to go.


Thats a tough one. Its like an upside down floor. 

What is your preferred method of application for this situation?

Are you intending to get this in one coat?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Why are you coating it?
Can it just be cleaned?


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

I like Ceramithane made by Graham's. Waterborne, goes on easy, little to no smell, dries fast, you can get it in just about any sheen...draw-back...It's about $80 a gallon.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I think the original finish was put on in the 60's ( Hush RCP..) and hasn't been touched since. There are a few areas ( around window particularly) that have been sun bleached and even the ceiling looks a bit bleached and dry. 
So the point is to give it new life- client does not want much sheen.
It really isn't dirty so cleaning isn't the point. 
There are also paneled walls.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

All my instincts tell me to go with an oil super low luster or matte clear. I hear you with the odor. What about cleaning it really well and wiping on a coat of tung oil?? It's hard to tell from the photo how porous it is. It is a tricky one. If you go with the acrylic, be sure to clean it well. I always have reservations with the newer acrylic clear coats over older varnishes and polys, I guess it is the future though. Best of luck-lets us know which way you go and how it works out.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

briancreary said:


> I like Ceramithane made by Graham's. Waterborne, goes on easy, little to no smell, dries fast, you can get it in just about any sheen...draw-back...It's about $80 a gallon.


 I have an old can of Matte flatte that I'm drying out a sample as we.. write. 
Definitely a possibility.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> I think the original finish was put on in the 60's ( Hush RCP..) and hasn't been touched since. There are a few areas ( around window particularly) that have been sun bleached and even the ceiling looks a bit bleached and dry.
> So the point is to give it new life- client does not want much sheen.
> It really isn't dirty so cleaning isn't the point.
> There are also paneled walls.


I think you will be putting a scuff on it pretty much no matter what direction you go. During that process, it will become more clear exactly what is on there. It looks Watco-ish to me. If that is the case, stay right with it. If not, I love Zar.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

If you really want to switch to a water-borne, I'm assuming adhesion to the exisiting coat is your main concern. I know that it would be mine in that situation. If you're making the change from solvent-based to acrylic, I'd sure want to put on a barrier coat of #1 shellac. If that's not possible, I'd try to find an unobtrusive spot to do a sample test for adhesion.

If it really is a danish oil, a fresh coat of Watco should take care of those faded areas. The question then becomes whether they can live with the smell.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I do think watco might be the reality. What if the original was a varnish coat- would a danish oil go over that to spruce it up, or does it need unfinished wood or previously oiled?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> I do think watco might be the reality. What if the original was a varnish coat- would a danish oil go over that to spruce it up, or does it need unfinished wood or previously oiled?


This is going to fly right in the face of chemical wisdom, but I have found at times in the past that in certain situations, Watco can serve a similar purpose to Murphys oil Soap. When you get up there and really sight those boards down and put your hands on them, you will know exactly what to do. Be a wood whisperer.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Gough (as in van?)- Adhesion and correct sheen are my 2 biggest concerns. 
I don't think there is an incompatibility issue , so a scuff should basically do alot for the adhesion. If I shellacked it out, that would be as stinky as oil, so I'd just go oil.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> . Be a wood whisperer.


...I am so tempted...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> ...I am so tempted...


There is a market for woodies. Most painters really dont get, er, understand, wood.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

briancreary said:


> I like Ceramithane made by Graham's. Waterborne, goes on easy, little to no smell, dries fast, you can get it in just about any sheen...draw-back...It's about $80 a gallon.


Good choice...Brian I dont know where you're purchasing, but its way less than $80/gal. Should be mid $50's-$60's. Still spendy though :thumbsup:


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> Good choice...Brian I dont know where you're purchasing, but its way less than $80/gal. Should be mid $50's-$60's. Still spendy though :thumbsup:


 About like Aura-- getting used to that price range.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have been a big fan of Ceramathane over the years, but I finally had the last straw with it. Brushing usually goes OK, but spraying it can go really funky for no reason.

Case in point (last straw): My Christmas project for my wife was to paint and clear coat a jewelry cabinet. I painted it black and clear coated with matte Ceramathane. Fish eye city. Not a contamination issue (2 different HVLPs, one turbine and one compressor power pressure pot). Fisheyed over stain samples as well as the black paint. This has happened enough now that I do not trust it anymore to use on a regular basis. Fresh gallons do this, old gallons do this.

Great feel, usually great leveling, just cannot trust it anymore. Which is too bad, it was my favorite clear for quite a while.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear about problems with Ceramathane. I don't use much clear waterbornes, but if I do it is usually that or Zar.


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

DeanV said:


> I have been a big fan of Ceramathane over the years, but I finally had the last straw with it. Brushing usually goes OK, but spraying it can go really funky for no reason.
> 
> Case in point (last straw): My Christmas project for my wife was to paint and clear coat a jewelry cabinet. I painted it black and clear coated with matte Ceramathane. Fish eye city. Not a contamination issue (2 different HVLPs, one turbine and one compressor power pressure pot). Fisheyed over stain samples as well as the black paint. This has happened enough now that I do not trust it anymore to use on a regular basis. Fresh gallons do this, old gallons do this.
> 
> Great feel, usually great leveling, just cannot trust it anymore. Which is too bad, it was my favorite clear for quite a while.


I wonder if you had run it through an airless with a fine finish tip if it would have been okay? Seriously, I wonder, I have no idea if it would have been better or not.


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Good choice...Brian I dont know where you're purchasing, but its way less than $80/gal. Should be mid $50's-$60's. Still spendy though :thumbsup:


Strange enough, in Michigan (Ann Arbor area) I do get it cheaper, but I try not to assume that others get the contractor rate, or the same reduced rate that I would. *I'm sure 99.9% of the people on here get a contractor rate* What's the nearest major city you are located to?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have run it through an airless once and it did work. You need to hustle though since it is so thin. I have had great results with HVLP and I have had abysmal failures with HVLP. I really like the product when it works, but the # of times it has not worked have become too frequent for me to chance it right now.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

BTW- for my purposes I will be brushing. Thats just how i roll . I mean brush. 
<Please refer to my name... 

thumbsup


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

BrushJockey said:


> BTW- for my purposes I will be brushing. Thats just how i roll . I mean brush.
> <Please refer to my name...
> 
> thumbsup


Me too. Your shoulders will hate you after this job. For a little while.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Graham products all have great adhesion, so that should help if you have any concerns over what is on there currently. I have used Ceramathane over old Danish Oil before with no problems FWIW.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Graham products all have great adhesion, so that should help if you have any concerns over what is on there currently. I have used Ceramathane over old Danish Oil before with no problems FWIW.


Would it work in one coat? That ceiling is going to be a little thirsty!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Probably not a one coat deal. Ceramathane does not build super fast compared to oil finishes. On the plus side, since it is a matte (more like an eggshell), it does not need to build up as much sheen, so it should be a little more forgiving. 

For new wood, my general rule of thumb is if lacquer would do it in 3 coats, Ceramathane needs 4. So, it depends how much seal is left on the wood. For Ceramathane, I do 2 coats on new wood, then sand, then 2 more coats. If you sand after 1 coat, coat 2 will still raise grain sometimes and it is easy to burn through.

On this ceiling with the matte, I think 2 coats will work if there is at least some seal left behind.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> Gough (as in van?)- Adhesion and correct sheen are my 2 biggest concerns.
> I don't think there is an incompatibility issue , so a scuff should basically do alot for the adhesion. If I shellacked it out, that would be as stinky as oil, so I'd just go oil.


(Nickname that I've had for almost 60 years). Ceramithane isn't something that I've encountered here in the boonies, but the Graham website does warn about using some of their coatings over shellac. OTOH, it does sound as if it adhere much better to oil stains than a lot of other acrylics, not to mention Dean's experience with it over Danish oil.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Most coatings that say no to use over shellac are worried about the wax in shallac that may affect adhesion. Use a dewaxed shellac to be safe (seal coat by zinsser is dewaxed).


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Seal coat has changed the game big time.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Ben Moore Stays Clear low luster.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Most coatings that say no to use over shellac are worried about the wax in shallac that may affect adhesion. Use a dewaxed shellac to be safe (seal coat by zinsser is dewaxed).


 It's funny, I have always been a big fan of shellac and I have always been aware of the concerns about the wax and understand the chemistry, but I've used traditional shellac under varnishes and polys forever and have NEVER had any kind of problem. I always had a theory that is was because the companies that made the polys and clears didn't make shellac and visa versa-a corporate battle. We do a lot of on sight staining & finishing and it comes out mint. I love shellac as a sanding sealer and it really only smells when it's wet. I've used the Seal Coat and find it thinner with less sealing properties, like it needs a double coat to accomplish the same as regular shellac. Now watch, since I said something I'll have a problem tomorrow!!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Most coatings that say no to use over shellac are worried about the wax in shallac that may affect adhesion. Use a dewaxed shellac to be safe (seal coat by zinsser is dewaxed).


Good point. As soon as SealCoat became widely available, we stopped making our shellac from scratch in almost all cases. 

From the information on the Graham website, it sounds more like some of their products have a solvent that dissolves the shellac:

http://www.grahampaint.com/howto_paneling.htm

I can't glean anything from the MSDSs or the TDSs, but I wonder about ammonia or alcohol, either of which would dissolve shellac. They also warn about using Ceramithane over lacquered surfaces as well.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CliffK said:


> It's funny, I have always been a big fan of shellac and I have always been aware of the concerns about the wax and understand the chemistry, but I've used traditional shellac under varnishes and polys forever and have NEVER had any kind of problem. I always had a theory that is was because the companies that made the polys and clears didn't make shellac and visa versa-a corporate battle. We do a lot of on sight staining & finishing and it comes out mint. I love shellac as a sanding sealer and it really only smells when it's wet. I've used the Seal Coat and find it thinner with less sealing properties, like it needs a double coat to accomplish the same as regular shellac. Now watch, since I said something I'll have a problem tomorrow!!


IIRC, SealCoat is a two-pound cut, while most of the other pre-mixed shellacs are three-pound. SealCoat is also our standard pre-stain treatment. Handy stuff.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have never run into problems with any shellac either so far, but I do not use it extensively. On blotch wood, I use spray dye stains to control blotching instead of a pre-sealer. Also, I tend to prefer using products as self-sealing whenever possible. Although, the spray stains I have been using to tend to migrate into waterborne clearcoats so I may need to start sealing with shellac or mixing a little binder in with the dye tints. I am trying to ditch lacquer, so to have to add shellac while dropping lacquer seems to defeat part of the reason for trying to ditch lacquer in the first place.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Was the stain oil Dean? How long between staining and finishing? The way the acrylics are made these days, he oil stain needs to be really dry before applying.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

When the Ceramathane fisheyes, it does not seem to be related to drytime. I let black metal and wood enamel (latex) dry until at least the next day before top coating. I let oil stains dry over night.

For the color lift into the clear coat, I am trying dyestains carried in water or alcohol with no binders like oil stains have. Those can lift into the first couple coats of clear. Only really noticed because of the color of the sanding dust.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Still doing a little research- found this hybrid- anyone use something like this? Sounds like best of both worlds-

The new* Ultima-WR Stain System* is built upon a unique hybridized linseed oil emulsion base and organic colorants that allow this stain to be thinned, and cleaned with water, while still providing the deep, rich color penetration of traditional linseed oil. No turpentine, mineral spirits or ammonia is required for thinning this material. Ultima-WR Stains clean up with basic water and mild detergent.

http://www.targetcoatings.com/stains.html


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Was the stain oil Dean? How long between staining and finishing? The way the acrylics are made these days, he oil stain needs to be really dry before applying.


NC, so this sounds like a change from the early acyrlic clears, right? When we took our first class given by one of the early developers, they were adamant about coating oil stains BEFORE they were fully dry. As he said, while it sounded counter-intuitive, they found it was what worked.

When we're using acrylics, we use water-based dyes, but mostly use oil-based products here in the wild west. I figure it'll be a race to see if I can retire before all of the solvent-based products disappear.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Gough said:


> I figure it'll be a race to see if I can retire before all of the solvent-based products disappear.


 That's funny Gough, I often joke about the same thing!! Now with the addition of the "new" oil based paints with the water clean-up ,maybe that will change?? It can't be long before they introduce stuff like that in the clear coatings market as well-if they haven't already-it's hard to keep up these days. I'm used to knowing what works and what doesn't. It seems like I am always experimenting and trying out new stuff these days to try to accomplish what I always have without giving it much thought. It's all good, but sometimes it seems like more work and expense than ever just trying to stay current.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have used some of Target's coatings to try them out but none of their stains yet. For their clears, I think Zar and Target among others are doing similar oil products in water. Some of the Target stuff is tung oil based. The WR stain is linseed oil, etc.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I should have used this quote from there site-



> The *Ultima-WR Clear Base (WR400xx)* can be used as a "Danish-Oil" type finish, bringing out the natural color tones of domestic and exotic woods without the introduction of dyes or pigments. Again, due to the emulsified linseed oil backbone, the Clear Base will cure and age to a soft amber tone, identical to linseed oil in turpentine but without the flammability or combustibility issues inherent in the older blends.



This is what I'm now thinking of. I put a Q on the forum at Target, but it looks like the Pres of the Co does all the answering, so who knows when i will get an answer. But I am intrigued and really close to ordering a gal - looks like the answer- but hoping somebody has used this or similar product.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

If you call them, the President be available to talk to. I have called there once and was put right through when I asked to speak to someone for technical questions. Maybe they have another level now, but a couple years ago everyone who called talked to the Pres.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I just PM'd him there, and invited him to this thread.


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