# Benjamin Moore Advance� Waterborne Interior Alkyd



## JoseyWales

*Benjamin Moore Advance® Waterborne Interior Alkyd*

Just finished using this paint on old, oil based trim and doors in an 80 year old house....Scuff sanded and double coated...I used Oxford White cc30.

This product levels like a true oil and it hardens to a true enamel coating after 24 hours or so...I found it dragged in comparison to an acrylic which cuts down on your speed..I didn't add anything to thin it out because it sagged enough right out of the can..There is a learning curve and you need to constantly monitor for drips and sags..If you catch them they level out nicely...On a few windows It sagged the entire length and I had to sand it out the next day...I didn't notice the sag because it was the top board in a dimly lit room...You really have to be careful not to put too much product on.

I liked this product on spindles however...Just brush it on and it levels fantastic..I only had about 8 spindles to paint so I brushed them out..That's a nice option to have in some circumstances.

This paint is also good for painting doors with panels..It gives you a longer open time...The tough finish is great for doors.

I might try this waterborne alkyd the next time I spray kitchen cabinet doors...Lay them flat and paint one side a day..The faster curing time and harder enamel finish might be just what the doctor ordered...

In conclusion,the next time I would probably just prime the trim with Insl-x Stix primer and finish with a semi-gloss acrylic...The relative slowness of the spread rate is the deal killer along with the hassle of monitoring runs/sags.


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## straight_lines

Josey new formula should be out in most areas. Supposed to help with sags. My rep told me I got two gallons of the new formula Monday. I didn't really notice a difference, but I was spraying in the shop and didn't find the old formula sagged to bad to be honest.


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## JoseyWales

I've never sprayed the stuff..How does it spray?..You spraying flat or vertical?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Are you guys having problems with advance taking too long to cure on dark colors ?


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## JoseyWales

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Are you guys having problems with advance taking too long to cure on dark colors ?


Have only used white and it cured fine.


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## Mod Paint Works

I love Advance! Looks like trim is candy coated once cured. Yumyyyy!

www.mpwdenver.com
facebook.com/modpaintworks


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

I'm using the color AF-480 takes 12oz. of colorant after a week still haven't cured, I can touch it, but If I put pressure I get finger prints marks on the film


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## straight_lines

JoseyWales said:


> I've never sprayed the stuff..How does it spray?..You spraying flat or vertical?



Sprays like a champ. Vertical and flat.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/5vGBCmJ1_I0_h-uJIyW-Ww?feat=directlink

I did a bunch of furniture, and will update this thread when I get some more pictures. 



ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm using the color AF-480 takes 12oz. of colorant after a week still haven't cured, I can touch it, but If I put pressure I gat finger prints marks on the film


Ultra deep base black cured similar to white? IDK you sure they used gennex? :jester:

I would call my rep if I were you.

http://www.johnsonhomeconstruction....odeling/refinishing-cabinets-in-wilmington-nc


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## JoseyWales

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm using the color AF-480 takes 12oz. of colorant after a week still haven't cured, I can touch it, but If I put pressure I gat finger prints marks on the film


You need to send your rep out to take a look at it...Something is wrong with that batch of paint...Sorry to hear about the bad luck.


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## JoseyWales

straight_lines said:


> Sprays like a champ. Vertical and flat.
> 
> 
> What tip?...The usual 310?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

I'm using a graco fine finish 410


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## BrushJockey

JoseyWales said:


> You need to send your rep out to take a look at it...Something is wrong with that batch of paint...Sorry to hear about the bad luck.


AF colors were developed for Aura, not advance. Might be just too much colorant for Advance.


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## straight_lines

A 211 only because its the only small tip I could find, and I didn't want to drive all the way to the store.


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## straight_lines

BrushJockey said:


> AF colors were developed for Aura, not advance. Might be just too much colorant for Advance.


They should work with any gennex paint. I use them all the time, though when they were first released I was told they couldn't do them in the old regal.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

BrushJockey said:


> AF colors were developed for Aura, not advance. Might be just too much colorant for Advance.


Ohh really, FYI a base 4 takes a minimum of 10 oz. of colorant.


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## ROOMINADAY

I have used the product 3 times so far. Durability being the reason. I sprayed 40 spindles with my PS, and had runs on about 10 of them... too heavy. Next time 2 light coats.

I find it does not cover well at all, and is taking 3 coats to cover. It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy and I am terrified to add extender to it!

We have a high end house of oil trim and doors to do in the next few weeks and I will most likely use it again. I am NOT sold on AURA, scuff sand over oil - does not adhere very well imo.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

ROOMINADAY said:


> I have used the product 3 times so far. Durability being the reason. I sprayed 40 spindles with my PS, and had runs on about 10 of them... too heavy. Next time 2 light coats.
> 
> I find it does not cover well at all, and is taking 3 coats to cover. It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy and I am terrified to add extender to it!
> 
> We have a high end house of oil trim and doors to do in the next few weeks and I will most likely use it again. I am NOT sold on AURA, scuff sand over oil - does not adhere very well imo.


Let us know how it goes, I brushed some white trim using advance with XIM Latex extender and it worked pretty good.


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## George Z

Last winter we brushed the doors over super adherent primer (2 coats dark colour)
Sprayed a huge kitchen's cabinets with same primer and HVLP.
Overall hapy, great product.
You need to treat it like an alkyd

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.171847929523450.32054.106882162686694&type=1


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## JoseyWales

George Z said:


> Last winter we brushed the doors over super adherent primer (2 coats dark colour)
> Sprayed a huge kitchen's cabinets with same primer and HVLP.
> Overall hapy, great product.
> You need to treat it like an alkyd
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.171847929523450.32054.106882162686694&type=1


What made you go with the HVLP instead of an airless?...Makes sense actually as it probably levels out after it is sprayed..Most acrylics going through an HVLP dry pretty quick with that hot air.


Did you use a 1.4 mm?


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## George Z

JoseyWales said:


> What made you go with the HVLP instead of an airless?...Makes sense actually as it probably levels out after it is sprayed..Most acrylics going through an HVLP dry pretty quick with that hot air.
> 
> 
> Did you use a 1.4 mm?


I did not do it myself, but our painter said he found it too runny for the airless. Likely he was treating it like an acrylic.
We used the CapSpray at the end and it worked out perfect.


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## straight_lines

You have to do a tack coat with these high leveling thin enamels. Advance is no different. 

It will tack in a matter of minutes. Come back lay down your top coat.


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## Gotdibz

I've been using it this week on kitchen cabinets. I'm using graco's AAA and it levels out nice, Im a huge fan of it. 

I've been spraying everything (doors, drawers) vertically with a 310 or 311(cant remember) FF tip

No drips. No thinning. 

Cant wait to use the new formula.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Gotdibz said:


> I've been using it this week on kitchen cabinets. I'm using graco's AAA and it levels out nice, Im a huge fan of it.
> 
> I've been spraying everything (doors, drawers) vertically with a 310 or 311(cant remember) FF tip
> 
> No drips. No thinning.
> 
> Cant wait to use the new formula.


I just spray some drawers this afternoon, No drips, No thinning, I love it
Bye Satin Impervo :thumbup:


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## NCPaint1

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm using the color AF-480 takes 12oz. of colorant after a week still haven't cured, I can touch it, but If I put pressure I get finger prints marks on the film


Are you applying multiple coats? How long between them?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

NCPaint1 said:


> Are you applying multiple coats? How long between them?


No, I brushed one coat last week (Tuesday) and this afternoon put the second coat


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

How does advance work over Lacquer undercoater ?


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## NCPaint1

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No, I brushed one coat last week (Tuesday) and this afternoon put the second coat


Yeah, something isn't right.


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## b2dap1

They just got the Advance semi gloss in one of my stores. It looks really nice, kinda like Satin Impervo Oil. I cant wait to try it.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

UPDATE: After 9 days Advance has cured completely at Temp.78 :thumbup:


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## NCPaint1

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> UPDATE: After 9 days Advance has cured completely at Temp.78 :thumbup:


That is really weird.


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## Ryder11

We had the same problem. A customer painted something in black and it was about it week before it dried. We were told they the did have a problem with some of the deeper bases not drying. You probably got a can from an old batch.


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## CCrowderpaint

*Advance - mixed review*



ROOMINADAY said:


> I have used the product 3 times so far. Durability being the reason. I sprayed 40 spindles with my PS, and had runs on about 10 of them... too heavy. Next time 2 light coats.
> 
> I find it does not cover well at all, and is taking 3 coats to cover. It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy and I am terrified to add extender to it!
> 
> We have a high end house of oil trim and doors to do in the next few weeks and I will most likely use it again. I am NOT sold on AURA, scuff sand over oil - does not adhere very well imo.


I agree with the above review of the Benjamin Moore Advance. I used it on a small recent brush job and found that not only did it sag terribly on the hollow-core doors (roll on, brush out), but it took three coats to cover in bright white over an off-white, it also failed completely to cover the dark streaks in some new poplar trim even though it was primed in a solid white primer, and then covered in two coats. I don't know of any of the other BM high-end trim paints that wouldn't cover under those circumstances. 

Besides that, it took well over 24 hours to dry. Though it was extremely hot and humid when it was being applied it seemed a little excessive. On the other hand, I *love* the glassy oil finish, it kicks butt over any other latex trim paint I've used with the possible exception of the CT satins, which I'm a big fan of, but find hard to come by in my neighborhood. 

In the end, I'm not sure I would recommend this product in its current formula. I like the finish, but would have to be in a very specific situation in order to to use it. I mean, if you're going to go to all of the hassle, why not just use good 'ole Satin Impervo?? 

As for the Aura mentioned above. I would never try to put if over oil without a primer. I know the BM reps say it will be fine, but I just don't buy it. I like Aura well enough for the fast dry time, but there's just no way to get around the primer step. 

good luck regardless, 
Christina (the Painter Chick)


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## fastlanepainting

I am a big fan of advance as well. I havn't had a chance to spray it yet but even brushed it looks great. I have only used the white semi gloss and used a wooster silver tip to put it on and it looks fantastic, no brush marks at all.


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## JoseyWales

I've used it once and it did run quite a bit after I brushed it out..There is a learning curve so I would advise anyone to monitor the door or frame you just painted and look for drips/runs...If you get them early enough,no problem...I often had to wait until the next day to sand the runs out with my palm sander...I found painting spindles by brush to be quite easy as it leveled out nicely.


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## Zoomer

Advance semi gloss does look nice but there is a learning curve. This product cannot be applied as heavy as oil or it will run like crazy.


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## Scotiadawg

When you're using Advance just pretend you're using the old oil base, no problems with sags, drips and runs. Good idea to keep a check on humidity as well, I use a cheapo dehumidifier when needed esp in NC.


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## straight_lines

That is a good point about humidity. Temperature is also something to keep an eye on as well.

The finish this coating produces is really beautiful.


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## TERRY365PAINTER

My neighbor ask to paint some custom
Cabinets for him . Just a small set 2 sets of bottoms and 2 set of uppers . I ran some advance earlier this year with great 
Success . With that being said it was also 
Low to high 80's out . Been rather cold or let's say chilly for central Texas . My client I did the advance also said it took over 1 week to cure meaning I could of had the old formula . Question how do I tell the difference in the 2 types of advance or question 2 " should I just run a satin pervero to deal with the lower temps better the color is a med base Sw 6102 
Portabella ? The cabinets are raw mixed 
Hard and soft woods oak maple left over cabinets pieces from , other jobs made into cabinets .


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## straight_lines

I would heat the area and use advance if that is what the client wants


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## madochio

TERRY365PAINTER said:


> My neighbor ask to paint some custom
> Cabinets for him . Just a small set 2 sets of bottoms and 2 set of uppers . I ran some advance earlier this year with great
> Success . With that being said it was also
> Low to high 80's out . Been rather cold or let's say chilly for central Texas . My client I did the advance also said it took over 1 week to cure meaning I could of had the old formula . Question how do I tell the difference in the 2 types of advance or question 2 " should I just run a satin pervero to deal with the lower temps better the color is a med base Sw 6102
> Portabella ? The cabinets are raw mixed
> Hard and soft woods oak maple left over cabinets pieces from , other jobs made into cabinets .


most of the "old" is gone. ask them when they got the stuff in newer is better. also that is not a low temp for this product if it is in the 40 i would heat the area


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## user12499

When I've sprayed this in the past, i sprayed on cabinet doors. I sprays them flat. I let them dry 2 days per side before flipping over to do the fronts.

Just a FYI tip - spray the inside the first day
Spray the front or side most visible the last day. That Way your fronts are not laying face down and prone to damage 

Also if your taking them to your shop- like we do. 
Bid extra and buy bubble wrap to protect.
I've went as far as having my guys pack them and we fed ex them back to the customers house 
Talk about making yourself look good to the customer! Ha 
I told the customer we pack them and fed ex ships them to ensure safety of the cabinets.
This was a 1 time thing on a very high end old home restoration. They had they money and of course there was a significant mark up on our end!! I doubled the fed ex charges and passed them along to the customer.


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## alertchief

JoseyWales said:


> Just finished using this paint on old, oil based trim and doors in an 80 year old house....Scuff sanded and double coated...I used Oxford White cc30.
> 
> This product levels like a true oil and it hardens to a true enamel coating after 24 hours or so...I found it dragged in comparison to an acrylic which cuts down on your speed..I didn't add anything to thin it out because it sagged enough right out of the can..There is a learning curve and you need to constantly monitor for drips and sags..If you catch them they level out nicely...On a few windows It sagged the entire length and I had to sand it out the next day...I didn't notice the sag because it was the top board in a dimly lit room...You really have to be careful not to put too much product on.
> 
> I liked this product on spindles however...Just brush it on and it levels fantastic..I only had about 8 spindles to paint so I brushed them out..That's a nice option to have in some circumstances.
> 
> This paint is also good for painting doors with panels..It gives you a longer open time...The tough finish is great for doors.
> 
> I might try this waterborne alkyd the next time I spray kitchen cabinet doors...Lay them flat and paint one side a day..The faster curing time and harder enamel finish might be just what the doctor ordered...
> 
> In conclusion,the next time I would probably just prime the trim with Insl-x Stix primer and finish with a semi-gloss acrylic...The relative slowness of the spread rate is the deal killer along with the hassle of monitoring runs/sags.


Did you feel that the adhesion was good between the old and the new with a scuff sand and no primer? I have used the product but only on primed new wood and have a job I am looking at that has large amounts of crown and trim that I want to ensure is a success!


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## JoseyWales

alertchief said:


> Did you feel that the adhesion was good between the old and the new with a scuff sand and no primer? I have used the product but only on primed new wood and have a job I am looking at that has large amounts of crown and trim that I want to ensure is a success!


I scuffed sanded the trim with a sanding sponge and the adhesion was good..It passed the fingernail test.:thumbsup:

I wouldn't use that product to paint the entire trim/doors of a house again...Like I said I'll try it on Kitchen cabinets next.


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## Paradigmzz

Just shot 6 gallons on a repaint thursday and Friday. Needed a higloss. This stuff pissed me off. Delayed sag was a brutal learning curve. I held after first bathroom trim for an hour before proceeding on and I was glad I did. Dialed in for lap passes in cabs and was smoother from there on out. Finicky, finicky product.


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## Paradigmzz

Let me clarify ALL waterborne alkyds are finicky, i was hoping for better than SW versions, i see and experienced nothing different than what I have found with SW WB Alkyd.


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## straight_lines

Paradigmzz said:


> Let me clarify ALL waterborne alkyds are finicky, i was hoping for better than SW versions, i see and experienced nothing different than what I have found with SW WB Alkyd.



Even in the finish quality?


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Been doing some cabinets for my neighbor . Mixed woods really smooth stuff . Maybe its just me I haven't had problems with the advance yet . I mainly just use satin though . Other than dry time . Smells like chocolate ... Brushed and rolled some inside cabinets and sprayed all the doors flat and the drawers in the garage today finish coat . Looks great 
I think Kelly Moore version would a better 
Trim paint covers great and has the oil sheen look ! The finish of advance is just amazing .


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## mudbone

Paradigmzz said:


> Let me clarify ALL waterborne alkyds are finicky, i was hoping for better than SW versions, i see and experienced nothing different than what I have found with SW WB Alkyd.


i agree. seems like you have to spend a huge amount of time just babysitting it. sorta of the same with waterbased Pro Classic.


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## Seattlepainting

*Advanced Semi-Gloss*

I am a big fan of oil enamel especially Satin Impervo, Dulamel, and Effecto Gloss (P&L). However the demand for waterborne alternates is high especially in Seattle.

This is a video from a project with Advanced Semi. The trim was dark and the genex colorants were clearly superior to the older glycol colorants. Powder sand in just under 48 hours..beating satin impervo which had a very long cure to sand on anything other than white. If the humidity is high I think cure time will be FOREVER (Florida..Houston). We dont really toy around with accelerants or driers; but I would be curious to hear what other guys are doing. 

There is a learning curve to echo. This paint is thin; and almost every production guy overloads the first time. The tack coat method works well with white and neutral, but a disaster with dark.

The semi-gloss is a very nice sheen and resembles Satin Impervo...all the other mattes and satins (including SW pro=classic) are very dull. But if you have a client used to Satin looking like Satin Impervo; Advanced Satin will be too flat.

Finish in Advanced is harder after cure than Sherwin W. pro-classic; but Pro-classic can load a little higher before "runs" for better application time.


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## b2dap1

So I tried Advance semi gloss for the first time today. I went in head first. Started by turning the heat up to about 74. All the trim and doors were builder grade stain and poly. Started with prep, cover stain, sand again and caulk. I sprayed all the doors thru the 440i with a FF 312. No thinnning. I did a "heavy" tack coat and then a nice finish coat. Covered great and no runs. After doors were done, I started to brush out some windows and no runs there either. GREAT PODUCT!!

Here is a crappy cell phone pic. Ill try to get a few in better light with a real camera.
http://s1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd516/B2DAP1/Painting/


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## Zoomer

Good job.


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## Damon T

Seattlepainting said:


> I am a big fan of oil enamel especially Satin Impervo, Dulamel, and Effecto Gloss (P&L). However the demand for waterborne alternates is high especially in Seattle.
> 
> This is a video from a project with Advanced Semi. The trim was dark and the genex colorants were clearly superior to the older glycol colorants. Powder sand in just under 48 hours..beating satin impervo which had a very long cure to sand on anything other than white. If the humidity is high I think cure time will be FOREVER (Florida..Houston). We dont really toy around with accelerants or driers; but I would be curious to hear what other guys are doing.
> 
> There is a learning curve to echo. This paint is thin; and almost every production guy overloads the first time. The tack coat method works well with white and neutral, but a disaster with dark.
> 
> The semi-gloss is a very nice sheen and resembles Satin Impervo...all the other mattes and satins (including SW pro=classic) are very dull. But if you have a client used to Satin looking like Satin Impervo; Advanced Satin will be too flat.
> 
> Finish in Advanced is harder after cure than Sherwin W. pro-classic; but Pro-classic can load a little higher before "runs" for better application time.
> 
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCVddE6X4OU


Very nice work John!


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## Fresh Interiors

Hey All! Love the Advance! We use it to finish all of our kitchen cabinet doors, with great results. Use a Gracco FF 208 tip, air-less. We found it can be tricky to work with, but no different than painting with melamine. When brushing you have to go thin! Beautiful product for painting over oil trim. I agree with everyone, CAN'T use Aura over oil without priming We've had issues with adhesion. When spraying over unfinished wood, dont use the Advance primer. It is easily absorbed into the wood and takes many coats to cover! Used it to spray an entire home and cost is a fortune in time and extra primer! Big pain in the butt priming over MDF. Still prefer Para's Super Stick for bare wood. Actually can't wait to try Para's new waterbourne alkyd! If anyone's tried it, let us know what you though!


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## degarb

How well does this product stick to glass? Can it pass a scratch test on glass in a 9 days?


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## NCPaint1

degarb said:


> How well does this product stick to glass? Can it pass a scratch test on glass in a 9 days?


Are you painting glass much? I can scrape anything off glass.


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## degarb

I need a trim enamel to adhere to glass, like most oils.


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## NCPaint1

degarb said:


> I need a trim enamel to adhere to glass, like most oils.


OK that doesn't answer the question. Are you painting glass?

Unless the product you are applying will etch the glass, its going to scrape off.


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## degarb

Any point that that has real adhesion will make you work at scraping off glass in,two week, and be nearly impossible to,razor off a spray shield., any oil, devflex cannot quarter scrape off glass in seven days with no etching. Is this product that trustable? Obviously over oil is subjective at best.


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## straight_lines

Not what you are looking for in an enamel.


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## NCPaint1

straight_lines said:


> Not what you are looking for in an enamel.


Agreed, they make primers for bonding.


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## degarb

If you do the research, you find originally primers were to save the customer money. Then the paint companies figured out they could charge more for the primers. You are a fool to buy any point that does work as a primer. Even in bridge painting siloxothane are making epoxies a thing of the past. I sprayed oil as a primer on doors yesterday becuse of dumb evasion answers to adheaion. Big waste of time and money. Huge odor, killed on charchol, horror leveling with fast dry, ton of sand paper. A paint that would adhere would have saved $500.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

:lol:


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## NCPaint1

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> :lol:


I know.... primers are a total waste. Its all a scam man....its a conspiracy dude, total conspiracy. Primers don't do anything, they are all the same just different labels and costs.

**that was a joke**


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

NCPaint1 said:


> I know.... primers are a total waste. Its all a scam man....its a conspiracy dude, total conspiracy. Primers don't do anything, they are all the same just different labels and costs.
> 
> **that was a joke**


I'm an idiot, I just bought a gallon of Zinsser 123 Zero VOC


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## NCPaint1

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm an idiot, I just bought a gallon of Zinsser 123 Zero VOC


Well, that stuff might be crappy, I dunno though. Zinsser stuff is outa my wheelhouse except for a couple products.


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## degarb

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I'm an idiot, I just bought a gallon of Zinsser 123 Zero VOC


I have been painting 29 years, now. I have seen alot. Yes, and family painting roots into at least the 1920. Yes, many products and primers are bogus. Often they *shorten* the life of your job is used where not needed--sometimes dramatically.

The last I checked, you could use any oil trim paint over any flat, clean oil. *There are waterbornes* that can do this. All such products grip to glass and the top of the can (at least fingernail proof, prefer quarter proof).

Why would you do an unnecessary step, but for ignorance of a good product or as sales B.S.?

Personally, I can tell you Ben Moore's 2006 gripping waterborne primer was fingernail scratched off new metal man doors several months after application (gripping my wallet). 2005-2008 every test of their waterborne impervo would easily scratch off can lid with fingernail: Not acceptable, premium price tag. I also think Sherwin Williams proclassic oil and ici advanced alkyd would totally fail adhesion tests. I have similar bad experience with ICI waterborne catalyzed epoxy on a man door in 1997: two week and way easily scratched off a metal man door that could not be hung. (I have a list longer than my arm of products that are bogus, but hawked by the sales people.)

This product (Advanced), was fairly scratch resistant after 4 days on can lid. I am encouraged, dissapointed in replies and that no one else can offer a simple yes or no. After 4 days, it was not scratch proof (which is to be expected), as it need be. I am hoping in 9 days, much like any oil, it will be scratch proof (quarter).

I am betting on the added the added waterborn Urethane to the alkyd resin. I hope it adds more than flow, gloss retention, and hardness: adhesion. Though, with solvent catalyzed, urethanes don't adhere super duper compared with epoxy. I don't recall their psi adhesion, compared to the 400 psi of an industrial enamel.

If you studied physics, you would know the psi of a razor, naturally, you can scratch any paint off a car, no matter the price tag. So razor proof is not scratch proof. A trim film should be totally finger nail proof (not even allowing fingernail sink. Quarter resistant with reasonable pressure too.

(Naturally, for repaints and new metal, adhesion will be the difference between getting paid and not, or call backs, or reputation. For new construction, on wood, hardness is the key to a payday.)


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## NCPaint1

Degarb, do you think any of those failures you mentioned could be the result of improperly prepared surfaces? Such as not priming? Just thinking out loud.


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## Workaholic

So what type of glass painting are you doing?


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## jack pauhl

degarb said:


> How well does this product stick to glass? Can it pass a scratch test on glass in a 9 days?


Not a chance.


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## Workaholic

jack pauhl said:


> Not a chance.


I agree I used to use a lot of industrial enamel and that came off with a razor.


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## jack pauhl

Its not easy finding paints or primers with exceptional adhesion. Its more difficult to find great adhesion overnight with paints. Advance doesnt work for me because I need everything fast such as adhesion, block resistance, recoat time and dry-time. If none of that was important then Advance would be great. 

I'm a huge fan of BEHR waterborne alkyd but even with its much faster dry time vs Advance, it still creates hold-ups on the job. I had to wait 2 hours! yesterday to recoat crownmold and I was really pushing it at 2 hours. Any sooner and I would have been fighting drag.


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## NCPaint1

Another JP bare plug.....


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## BrushJockey

If you want fast- Aura.


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## Workaholic

NCPaint1 said:


> Another JP bare plug.....


Actually I was looking at JP's site and he was psyched about Emerald.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Workaholic said:


> Actually I was looking at JP's site and he was psyched about Emerald.


SW Emerald has great adhesion but lacks of hiding. I really hope I don't have to use it again.


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## Workaholic

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> SW Emerald has great adhesion but lacks of hiding. I really hope I don't have to use it again.


Never used it. What about white over white?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Workaholic said:


> Never used it. What about white over white?



Took 3 coats to cover this green.


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## Workaholic

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Took 3 coats to cover this green.


I saw those. Not good for such a high dollar paint. I could get a couple gallons comped but I keep passing because if I loved it then I would be stuck like chuck and see no need.


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## degarb

NCPaint1 said:


> Degarb, do you think any of those failures you mentioned could be the result of improperly prepared surfaces? Such as not priming? Just thinking out loud.



Only if extensive sanding and lacquer thinner wipe is poor prep. 

The point is people are so brain dead (like they never took a marketing course or heard of labeling and packaging to get a greater price tag?) that you cannot do a simple test before usage to see if something sticks. Old oils vary in hardness;* the top of the can and glass do not vary*, and are excellent indicators of how well you can trust a product.

I recall 1200 psi is adhesion of waterborne Shercyl (well below the psi of a razor which can rip through a powder coat), 400 psi is DTM and oil Industrial enamel, 1050 is Macro Epoxy. I don't recall Catalyzed Urethanes. Most latexes are not listed because of low adhesion. THis includes most latex gripping primers. Waterborne clear Urethanes have amazing adhesion and hardness.

Labels constantly lie with generalizations like the marketing smart but physically meaningless words, Great Adhesion (though I may trust a straight forward spec sheet with psi numbers), a test doesn't lie. 

..I am betting PPG "Break Through" would have excellent adhesion, just not the hardness (I don't know yet). I could have tried that product.

...Emerald isn't a trim paint (workaholic), nor sure why in this thread. Not in same, or similar, use as a trim enamel like Advanced. Interior trim, you need a glass or smooth hard plastic; walls and siding you want a durable rubber feel (not paint that feels like paper).


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## NCPaint1

degarb said:


> Only if extensive sanding and lacquer thinner wipe is poor prep.
> 
> The point is people are so brain dead (like they never heard of labeling and packaging to get a greater price tag?) that you cannot do a simple test before usage to see if something sticks. Old oil vary, the top of the can and glass do not.
> 
> I recall 1200 psi is adhesion of waterborne Shercyl, 400 psi is DTM and oil Industrial enamel, 1050 is Macro Epoxy. I don't recall Catalyzed Urethanes. Most latexes are not listed because of low adhesion. THis includes most latex gripping primers. Waterborne clear Urethanes have amazing adhesion.


Most interior trim products are not in the same category as the products you're comparing them to. You're talking about industrial metal coatings and epoxies. Residential trim products are in a different class. You have to compare apples to apples.


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## Workaholic

degarb said:


> ...Emerald isn't a trim paint (workaholic), nor sure why in this thread. Not in same, or similar, use as a trim enamel like Advanced. Interior trim, you need a glass or smooth hard plastic; walls and siding you want a durable rubber feel (not paint that feels like paper).


 I am aware of that. If you read the two posts below you will understand it was a minor side discussion that was not really pertinent to your question but side conversations happen from time to time. 



NCPaint1 said:


> Another JP bare plug.....





Workaholic said:


> Actually I was looking at JP's site and he was psyched about Emerald.


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## degarb

NCPaint1 said:


> Most interior trim products are not in the same category as the products you're comparing them to. You're talking about industrial metal coatings and epoxies. Residential trim products are in a different class. You have to compare apples to apples.



The point, is the resin technology is here--not with 400 psi (of the 1990's oil replacements), rather 3x the adhesion of oils. They charge enough, there is not really an excuse for trim enamels today lacking adhesion, rubbery, etc. They just other than they underestimate the customer. Not the painter, who they pretty much nail (as seen here by lack of comments on adhesion) as only interested in covering power.

The end customer is a bit more invested in failure if the product cannot grip his old oil. A 4 year old kid knows hard plastic; they have been holding a rattle since age 2. I am typing on a plastic keyboard. They have been getting trim enamels for at least 200 years with hardness of your cell phone. Most customers look at the trim with their hands and fingernails, not their eyes. The paint companies don't get it; often painters think that coverage is where the value lies. The end customer gets it, as they watch the less than excellent products fail--regardless of their attempts at renovation. (So they side, do nothing, or move out to a McMansion.)...Maybe, I am wrong, and we can condition customers to rubbery, weak trim finishes. Yeah, when brush painting on cars finishes comes back.



They all have binders. So, waterborne against wb is not apples to oranges.

The executive bureaucracy, EPA, has *legislated* waterborne's as the new paint. So, we must match the old specs. The new Apples must have same vitamin, caloric, and price point as the old Oranges. There is a new standard of adhesion that needs to be demanded. I think Ben Moore is onto the best hardness solution with a true alkyd (which SW's is not) plus a Urethane. I can live with the constant running during brushing two adjoining flat wood pieces, if I have leveling and hardness. It did spray fine for me. I am holding my breath on adhesion and surface tolerance to any areas my workers miss sanding or wiping. (*I did oil prime the old oil trim upstairs, which really makes any advantage to using the waterborne mute. Which, oddly, or not, the epa does get.*)

I will say, still, when you walk into the rooms with the old oil, the 20+ year old oil finish kicks the butt of the 5 day old satin BM Advanced. (Better leveling, smoothness, and looks about 20x harder) Barely a comparision. Maybe after 6 months of cure (they will be close)....My local Ben Moore supplier only carries the satin Advance. Probably, because of the 130 runs per door 9when b&rolling), where I ended up with a job that averaged 1 small run per every 4 doors--provided I baby sat about 2.5 hours, constantly pulling runs out of the same adjoining areas. 

So, how does the glossier versions compare with the satin?


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## Jmayspaint

degarb said:


> So, how does the glossier versions compare with the satin?


Didn't seem to me to be as prone to run. 
And it's shineyer


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## degarb

joshmays1976 said:


> Didn't seem to me to be as prone to run.
> And it's shineyer


Were you spraying or b&r? It is the adjoining flat surfaces when b&r that are guaranteed to run or weep for two hours, depending on weather and color. Two hours here in ohio with under80% humidity and 78 degrees.

So, you like the semigloss better?

Also, glossier wb's can be thicker now days than lower sheen, but not always. Most low luster wb's barely qualify as trim enamel. It takes a gloss wb to seem harder and more oil like, while lower luster wb's usually appear looking like wall paint. The ICI wb alkyd eggshell is a little hard so more passible than sw. It does follow that the gloss would have more resin and better grip... just other questions concerning gloss.


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## Zoomer

degarb said:


> The point, is the resin technology is here--not with 400 psi (of the 1990's oil replacements), rather 3x the adhesion of oils. They charge enough, there is not really an excuse for trim enamels today lacking adhesion, rubbery, etc. They just other than they underestimate the customer. Not the painter, who they pretty much nail (as seen here by lack of comments on adhesion) as only interested in covering power.
> 
> The end customer is a bit more invested in failure if the product cannot grip his old oil. A 4 year old kid knows hard plastic; they have been holding a rattle since age 2. I am typing on a plastic keyboard. They have been getting trim enamels for at least 200 years with hardness of your cell phone. Most customers look at the trim with their hands and fingernails, not their eyes. The paint companies don't get it; often painters think that coverage is where the value lies. The end customer gets it, as they watch the less than excellent products fail--regardless of their attempts at renovation. (So they side, do nothing, or move out to a McMansion.)...Maybe, I am wrong, and we can condition customers to rubbery, weak trim finishes. Yeah, when brush painting on cars finishes comes back.
> 
> They all have binders. So, waterborne against wb is not apples to oranges.
> 
> The executive bureaucracy, EPA, has legislated waterborne's as the new paint. So, we must match the old specs. The new Apples must have same vitamin, caloric, and price point as the old Oranges. There is a new standard of adhesion that needs to be demanded. I think Ben Moore is onto the best hardness solution with a true alkyd (which SW's is not) plus a Urethane. I can live with the constant running during brushing two adjoining flat wood pieces, if I have leveling and hardness. It did spray fine for me. I am holding my breath on adhesion and surface tolerance to any areas my workers miss sanding or wiping. (I did oil prime the old oil trim upstairs, which really makes any advantage to using the waterborne mute. Which, oddly, or not, the epa does get.)
> 
> I will say, still, when you walk into the rooms with the old oil, the 20+ year old oil finish kicks the butt of the 5 day old satin BM Advanced. (Better leveling, smoothness, and looks about 20x harder) Barely a comparision. Maybe after 6 months of cure (they will be close)....My local Ben Moore supplier only carries the satin Advance. Probably, because of the 130 runs per door 9when b&rolling), where I ended up with a job that averaged 1 small run per every 4 doors--provided I baby sat about 2.5 hours, constantly pulling runs out of the same adjoining areas.
> 
> So, how does the glossier versions compare with the satin?


As with any new product there is s learning curve. It took a couple of jobs and a couple of gallons to figure out Advance. Once i figured it out rarely do i get a run. Learning advance has also increased my speed with oil enamel. A side benefit.


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## thinkpainting/nick

Zoomer said:


> As with any new product there is s learning curve. It took a couple of jobs and a couple of gallons to figure out Advance. Once i figured it out rarely do i get a run. Learning advance has also increased my speed with oil enamel. A side benefit.


We have used quite a bit of Advance and I have to say although I agree there is a learning curve it's still a pita to use and it runs.


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## BreatheEasyHP

My experience with it is pretty limited, but I felt like the SW wb alkyd brushes easier - less drag. I've thinned both of them with a smidge of XIM and I believe it helps with the sags, because it made it easier for me to put on an even coat by reducing the drag.

I'm using an Wooster Alpha to apply it. I've had thoughts that a softer brush might apply it a little easier.

What brushes are people preferring for it?


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## Zoomer

Try using a 2" angle sash. The thicker handled brush. Either purdy, corona or wooster Chinex. After trying over 10 different brushes this material seems to be the best for all of the wb alkyds, imo


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## dupro

*help w/ BM Advance*

Just took on a a job costumer specs "Advance"

15 flat pannelled doors + all baseboard trim/casing.

Never worked w/ this product.

Hoping to roll finish doors, w/ no brush lay out.

Vertical surface on doors.

Looking for feedback, suggestions for this product.

Roller suggestion/reccomendations? 5mm? Can't find any short nap rollers these days around here. Trully lint free???

Newbie to this forum.

Thanks for any help.


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## Damon T

Try a mohair roller. Also whizz red velour. One of my guys does real good with the black foam whizz rollers with the concave end. I don't like foam as much myself.


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## Jmayspaint

*Benjamin Moore Advance® Waterborne Interior Alkyd*

I would go with microfiber, 3/8 if you can get it. Sherwin has the Purdy micros sometimes that come in 3/8. Microfiber lay out a nice film and aren't prone to shed fibers like woven naps. They can shed a little when they're new. What I like to do is wash them and spin them out with a hose right off the bat. This gets any initial lint out of them and after that they are pretty much shed free. 

I usually tip off after rolling Advance, but after reading that some guys on here had good luck just rolling it with the micros, I tried it on some doors. If you can get it right, it will flow out very smooth.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the Purdy Jumbo minis. They come in 4 and 6 inch and will fit the Wooster Jumbo Koter frames as well as the Purdy mini frames. Whizz has some micro naps too, but I don't like them as well.


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## Danahy

Jmayspaint said:


> I would go with microfiber, 3/8 if you can get it. Sherwin has the Purdy micros sometimes that come in 3/8. Microfiber lay out a nice film and aren't prone to shed fibers like woven naps. They can shed a little when they're new. What I like to do is wash them and spin them out with a hose right off the bat. This gets any initial lint out of them and after that they are pretty much shed free.
> 
> I usually tip off after rolling Advance, but after reading that some guys on here had good luck just rolling it with the micros, I tried it on some doors. If you can get it right, it will flow out very smooth.
> 
> Just to clarify, I'm talking about the Purdy Jumbo minis. They come in 4 and 6 inch and will fit the Wooster Jumbo Koter frames as well as the Purdy mini frames. Whizz has some micro naps too, but I don't like them as well.



I use the exact same, except I use the 1/4" nap. If you use the pelican cut bucket the Wooster cage hangs above the paint, if you're cutting out of a tray, the longer handled Purdy cage is better.


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## DrakeB

Yah, the microfibers are probably the best with the Advance, though short naps with traditional rollers can give an okay look as well.

Worth noting that Advance doesn't sag nearly as bad as it did when people were commenting on this thread anymore, so that's not (as much of an) issue.

Make sure you give it the full time to cure between coats (16 hours, I generally just say do it in the morning and come back the next day to do the next coat). Productivity with Advance isn't great, but the end product is. Don't try to operate the doors or bump them in any way while they're drying, as this will mar the finish.


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## Damon T

I've had a hard time finding 1/4" microfiber naps. As in I haven't found any. Your help would be appreciated all y'all


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## STAR

I've recoated Advance 3hrs after 1st coat. Air temp 68F and 45% humidity no sags or runs. As long as it's dry to the touch I haven't had any problems.


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## Jmayspaint

STAR said:


> I've recoated Advance 3hrs after 1st coat. Air temp 68F and 45% humidity no sags or runs. As long as it's dry to the touch I haven't had any problems.



I've done that too. You can recoat it just as soon as it's dry to touch and nothing catastrophic happens. What I've noticed though is doing that retards the curing process and compromises the final film hardness. It'll still dry down fine, but doesn't reach full hardness. 

That's been my experience anyway. It's easy to forget when applying Advance that we're dealing with alkyd resins, not acrylic. Even in a waterborne formulation, they need to be treated as such for best results. Oxidation simply takes more time to happen than coalescence.


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## DrakeB

STAR said:


> I've recoated Advance 3hrs after 1st coat. Air temp 68F and 45% humidity no sags or runs. As long as it's dry to the touch I haven't had any problems.


In addition to the above, the biggest problem with doing this is that it'll work 9 times out of 10 with results that are fine, but the 10th time you have major problems; in my humble opinion, those aren't great odds. That's why I ask people to wait the full cure time, it's on the can for a reason.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Jmayspaint said:


> I've done that too. You can recoat it just as soon as it's dry to touch and nothing catastrophic happens. What I've noticed though is doing that retards the curing process and compromises the final film hardness. It'll still dry down fine, but doesn't reach full hardness.
> 
> That's been my experience anyway. It's easy to forget when applying Advance that we're dealing with alkyd resins, not acrylic. Even in a waterborne formulation, they need to be treated as such for best results. Oxidation simply takes more time to happen than coalescence.



Good points. I am curious though as to whether or not a quick re-coat just drastically delays curing, or if it truly prevents curing.


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## DrakeB

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Good points. I am curious though as to whether or not a quick re-coat just drastically delays curing, or if it truly prevents curing.


In theory, at least, it shouldn't be able to prevent curing entirely- both oxidation and evaporation just require access to air, which it should still have _some_ access to even after a second coat. The real question, I think, is whether irreparable damage will have been done to the bottom coat's structure by the time it actually does cure, which can and will be delayed heavily by the top coat.


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## ATX Painting

JoseyWales said:


> I've never sprayed the stuff..How does it spray?..You spraying flat or vertical?


sprayed cabinets with them today both flat and vertical. Levels great, sprays very even with a 209. The can boasts a 4 hour dry time, but it’s been 8 and still tacky...


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## degarb

Interesting. I see my posts here from 2013.



Update, I used a ton of emerald alkyd urethane by Sherwin-Williams in 2020. They finally got down the running issues with brush and roll on a joint, adjoining wood. The adhesion is pretty impressive, as is the hardness. I like it a lot more than the Ben Moore at this point in time. Unless, of course, they have upped their game. 



As far as dry time goes, I would shoot cabinet doors with water borne lacquer, but only in ideal temperature and humidity. Otherwise, conventional lacquer rules.


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