# painting ceramic tiles



## newkidonblock (Apr 18, 2007)

Hey guys, hope you can help me out. I have read up a little on this subject but I would like your input. Have a customer who wants her tile painted. Its outside but under her patio. Its in Arizona so it doesnt see much rain anyway. Could you guys give me some tips on prep, sealer and paint. She wants me to just primer it and paint, but I dont want to spend the rest of me life going back and fixing it over and over. Thanks for any info.


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## Humble Abode (Apr 11, 2007)

There are quite a few epoxy systems out there for tubs and tile. I think all they involve are a light etching and one coat sprayed with an HVLP. They look a lot better and last a lot longer than paint as well.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

I know of no way to paint floor tile and guarantee it'll stay, especially on floor tiles
I'd suggest she re-tile it

(rain is not the issue)


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## welovepainting (May 13, 2007)

I wouldnt paint floor tiles and expect it to last no matter what product you use.


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## Humble Abode (Apr 11, 2007)

Floor tiles? I didn't realize you were talking about floor tiles. I wouldn'y use the tub and tile stuff then. Still, there are some industrial epoxies out there that will hold fine for a few years.

Just don't use a water based epoxy.


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

Painting tile is no problem. It is done on a regular basis in industrial settings. 

Here is what you need:
1) Shot Blast or Acid prep solution (usually contains a small amount of HydroFluoric Acid) to etch the surface

2) Prime with a 100% solids 2K epoxy fortified with silane and fluoropolymer... Don't skimp... the primer is the key... 

3) (Optional) If you need a body coat then use 100% solids self leveling... 

4) Use use a high performance urethane as a topcoat to protect from UV... either 2K PU or Moisture Cure (aliphatic) designed for floors. 

5) (Optional) For a decorative look... Broadcast DecoFlakes into the urethane...

6) (Optional) If you chose to use DecoFlakes then you must seal them with a coat of clear urethane... 

I can't go into our products due to the Terms of Service for this site... That's why I descibed the chemistry above instead of product names...


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## newkidonblock (Apr 18, 2007)

thanks guys. I guess I should have been more clear. Was late when I wrote the question, like it is now. any way, The tiles are on the counter tops. Gonna try and talk her out of doing them.But thanks anyways.


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

Hi Guys,

Being on the manufacturing side of things, I don't always understand the bidding intricacies that are probably common knowledge to you guys. I hope you guys will treat me gently if these are stupid questions:

I'm wondering why a painter would try to talk someone out of doing work??? Is it just better to do that instead of telling a homeowner that you don't want to do a project for them? Why not just give a bid that outlines what will be done for a certain price? Why not price the jobs that you are not that interested in at 3x the normal price? Why not sub jobs out?
(^^^please see the thread for discussion of this topic: http://www.painttalk.com/showthread.php?t=284 thnx)

Also... newkidonblock... If this is a ceramic tile countertop the surface prep just changed dramatically. Most people just rough it up with a 4" grinder with a diamond wheel... prime... urethane... etc....


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## ibsocal (Apr 17, 2007)

Maybe sometimes we dont do enough research for the project that where not sure of and dont want to show it.so anyway i think that 3x for such a project is a good idea,win lose or draw.


Clean off all BBQ / chicken grease or whatever w/ajax water and brown scotch brite pad rinse off and dry.wipe down w/MEK mask off fix chipped or cracked tile w/two part spot putty auto type dries quick sands smooth,wipe away all dust and debris apply wipe on silane 2x five min dry time tween coats in the zonnie weather maybe less time then spray on 2-3 coats aliphatic acrylic polyurethane wait about 5 min between coats.clean out gun take tools back then unmask and clean up trash get paid.should take about 2-4 hours + - $ 2-400.00 + depending on size and condition.check out midwest chemicals easy to use good prices on materials.:thumbsup:


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

Silane is not a bad idea... However, if there is glaze on the tile it can't get to the inorganic materials that it loves to bond with in the presence of moisture. 

If there is no glaze... then I like your recommendation... I still like it if there is more surface prep on the tile (ie... mechanical abrasion)...


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## ibsocal (Apr 17, 2007)

I have been using silane for the last 3 + years on glazed tile on counter tops shower walls and porcelian tubs/sinks with zero adhesion failures,works for me should work for you too.now if the tile or surface is pourus i absolutly do not use silanes,i use a 1:1 epoxy primer first then top coat w/poly.used to use hydroflouric acid to etch glazed tile and porcelian substrates but since i discovered silanes several years ago jobs go quicker then the OLD ways. never heard of anybody or company use a diamond wheel grinder though.


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

> I have been using silane for the last 3 + years on glazed tile on counter tops shower walls and porcelian tubs/sinks with zero adhesion failures,works for me should work for you too.


I understand why you would think that because this works for you that it would work for everyone... everywhere. And, it will under certain conditions. First, different silanes react differently in different parts of the country. Yep... it's true... Since humidity affects the way silanes react, they are very different in Arizona as opposed to Florida. In addition, it depends on the shelf life of the silane, the conditions of storage (is it nitrogen blanketed), the humidity of the area you work in, temperature (somewhat), and how do you handle it (Do you leave the lid open alot?). 

I am NOT saying that silanes are not effective. They are! But, there ARE failures in many parts of the country because people do not handle it properly and do not choose the right type of silane. This chemistry is alot more complicated than a latex than can be used just about anywhere with about the same result.

My main point here is that I have learned that what works in one part of the country does not always work in another part of our country... or... even in Europe or the Middle East. A great example of this is paint for swimming pools. What works in San Diego doesn't work in Florida. What works in San Diego will work in the middle east but not in Eastern Europe... etc...

What ibsocal is suggesting will work in many areas of the US. I wouldn't have ANY problem recommending this type of 'blanket' approach in Southern California! It's a good and sound technology. All I am saying is... there are countless types and varieties of silanes... there are countless formulations of tile glaze... Before you jump in YOUR pool, test the water so you know how deep the water is in YOUR pool. Your friend's pool might be deeper than yours.


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## dryroller (Aug 23, 2007)

I just had to paint a ton of ceramic wall tile for winn dixie. This is what we used it was simple and it worked great. Use a hand sander with about 120 grit and try and give the surface a little texture. Don't spend all day on it cause you'll never get a real profile. Sherwin Williams has a product called XIM. It sticks to just about anything. We used that as a prime coat, and we used a water based epoxy as the top coats. We sprayed the job but you can also roll it out. It will set up pretty hard. If you are realy worried about it you could go to a higher end epoxy like acrylon.


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Wolverine, your claim is to manufacturing, and your chemistry knowledge sounds first rate to me.
Now here's the bidding intricacy you mentioned...
Best thing to do for color change is re-tile it. bust it all out, get a nice mortar bed on there and have client select some fine pricey tile and re-do it to what is in vogue during this 3-4yr period of time.
Point being, ibsocal has a blanket approach that has been faultless to his knowledge, and that technique may be presented to the client at a rate far less than the tile job.
No need for warranty til the next millenium.
Newkid can toss 3x out on the table, say its far less than re-tile, and NOT as long-lived, and the client can make the judgement call.
Primary intricacy of bidding is to get the job... while the client has a reasonable expectation of what they shall get for their money.
r


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## doodleworldart (Aug 24, 2007)

Hi, I painted tiles on a countertop a few years ago, and I paint pictures on tiles for back splash, I think the key to it lasting is a few coats of clear urethane and waiting about a good 8 to 10 hours after first coat to recoat. It's always worked for me, Good Luck on what ever you do.


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## Wolverine (Apr 17, 2007)

I've just never had to bid before. I'm smart enough to know that it's two different worlds. I appreciate you guys for not flaming me about it... lol. 

On the other hand, the chemisty is changing at an exponential pace. Am I first rate? Well, that is kind of debatable...lol... It's really just that we are a technology company and the companies that you deal with are sales companies (like SW, ICI, PPG...etc...) What I do know is this:

Everytime we deal with paint contractors and we tell them what our products will do... they NEVER believe us. NEVER! When we talk to new potential distributors... they NEVER believe what we say. We've come to the conclusion that most paint manufacturers oversell their products and make claims that are simply not true. So, everyone is soured to new cutting edge technologies because they have been burned so much by lies from paint manufacturers. We've turned MANY skeptics!

So, what we see is that paint contractors use the same stuff they've been using for a million years and they bypass the new chemistries. 

So, how about you guys? How can you provide the best possible products when you don't know who to believe? As the intro on our website says... you have "question the old perceptions". I see alot of old perceptions right here in this thread.

In the old days... you could not coat wet concrete. You could not coat concrete that was less than 28 days old. You could not spray 2K epoxy mastic on a ceiling without a huge mess of overspray. You couldn't coat a helicopter pad with urethane that would last. There was not such thing as an odorless epoxy. You had to wait 10 days for full cure. Paint smelled... lol... 

None of the old perceptions are absolutes anymore. How do you guys know who to trust?


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

Wolverine said:


> Everytime we deal with paint contractors and we tell them what our products will do... they NEVER believe us. NEVER! When we talk to new potential distributors... they NEVER believe what we say. We've come to the conclusion that most paint manufacturers oversell their products and make claims that are simply not true. So, everyone is soured to new cutting edge technologies because they have been burned so much by lies from paint manufacturers.


This is extremely accurate



Wolverine said:


> So, what we see is that paint contractors use the same stuff they've been using for a million years and they bypass the new chemistries.


Absolutely
I'm not going to risk my name/time/money on a product that the marketing dept. "says" will work
I will use what I know works
I don't fear technology, I'm skeptical of marketing depts.



Wolverine said:


> So, how about you guys? How can you provide the best possible products when you don't know who to believe? ....I see alot of old perceptions right here in this thread.


It's difficult
And frankly, forums like these are probably my best source for un-biased reviews of new technologies
I'll post up on a forum to see if anyone has used it and see what they thought
I trust these guys way more than a marketing dept.
I will take the recommendations of certain Paint Store Managers I trust on certain things...but that's only two of them...lol



Wolverine said:


> None of the old perceptions are absolutes anymore. How do you guys know who to trust?


Well...see above reply
And I would like to add something
I have found an interesting exercise to ask the manufacturer/dealer/rep/retailer...whoever is making the claims, to "Put Their Money Where There Mouth Is" so to speak
This often shuts them down, or sometimes develops into something interesting

As it is I who will have to fix the failure (if it does), at my expense, I ask what the rep will do for me if it fails
Usually this results in confusion and the statement that it's guaranteed
Lol
Yes, "guaranteed" is nice, but if it does fail, how will the rep/manufacturer bear, or at least share, the cost of fixing it

If there is no back-up procedure for this, the claim of being guaranteed is completely useless and hollow

Now, I'm not saying there is a good way around this, but the reaction is the key

Most run away
Buh-Bye!

Those that stick around to discuss "putting the money where their mouth is" in good faith, even if they/we don't come up with a plan, are often worthy of consideration

This "plan" can be anything from credit, actual physical help, outright payment for the fix....there are options
Usually an offer of enough samples to test the claims before hand is good enough for most painters
At least I don't mind playing with new stuff
But it's surprising how many manufacturers won't part with a few bucks worth of stuff, or want to send already made samples of the product (which are useless for our purposes), and charge us for them


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Wolverine... I know what sells product. Cost per sq ft.

I also know what is greatest assistance to me, selling a job to end client...
A nice, pretty, full color brochure I can explain, and leave with them.

Behr has really nice literature.
r


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

I have a ceramic tile counter top kitchen type, to spray , color and top coat, with the FDA compliance on surfaces where food is prepared, what is a good product for clear coat finish , I am using etching solution and XIM PRIMER


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

When faced with the same situation, and after research I went with the products from Hawks Labs. Google it.


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

Oden said:


> When faced with the same situation, and after research I went with the products from Hawks Labs. Google it.


Yeah we had already bought XIM primer, we scuffed down the tile and then cleaned off with a mineral spirit! Big mistake ! It formed an oily surface, called tech support they suggested rub down with xzelene prime with XIM and paint with an oil based paint , ( the protective coat is a two part epoxy ) that can cover acrylic or oil based finishes. It's used for tile and garage floors. I'm gonna finish the tiles and cabinet doors wit this. So any thoughts ladies and gents?


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

Oden said:


> When faced with the same situation, and after research I went with the products from Hawks Labs. Google it.


Oden

I'm looking into the hawks as we speak!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Finn said:


> Oden
> 
> I'm looking into the hawks as we speak!


I used the 2 part cleaner, the epoxy primer, the stone flecs and the epoxy clear coat. I was very happy with the system and when a need arises would use it again. They don't list the prices on the web. Call sales, give the guy your square footage, what ur painting, desired finish, etc.. it's Easy.


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## ibsocal (Apr 17, 2007)

Did you NOT know some answers to your questions were here to begin with since 07.
XIM certified here :laughing: with tile doc but :no: I would never use it for my customers.use acetone or denatured alcohol for wipe down.
xim tech support:blink:


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

ibsocal said:


> Did you NOT know some answers to your questions were here to begin with since 07.
> XIM certified here :laughing: with tile doc but :no: I would never use it for my customers.use acetone or denatured alcohol for wipe down.
> xim tech support:blink:


Yup
I read the thread, bearing in mind it was 5 years old :"bearing on side of caution and always humble enough to admit to not knowing what product use": :wink:;-)

5 years is a long time in the new technology field. But the thread is very much appreciated. By myself, look forward to sharing results, cheers!


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm also one of the dinosaurs that finds it hard to believe that this stuff will work, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

Isaiah putting the base coat on the tile, the XIM primer was put on the day before, already we are starting to see a nice solid build on the Tiles, 2-3 Faux coats after this, mixtur of sponging off and stippling followed by 3 Top coats of the 2 PAC epoxy clear. Will update soon


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