# How Many Coats In Your Contract?



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> How many coats are specified in your contract?


How many should there be?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> should


should there be a should?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

As many as it takes to perform the job correctly and to meet manufacturers specs.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

This is why I ask, does it or should it matter how many coats are specified in your contract.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Yes, apples to apples pricing and for warranty.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

If you apply 2 that may be specified in your contract and you see it need a 3rd coat. Are you charging or are you taking the hit?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I usually spec two. But at the time of the estimate I always *ask the HO *what colors they _think_ they might be going with. I explain that it helps me spec the correct number of coats to get proper coverage and thereby avoid any problems during production of the job.

I'm not in the buisness of painting a room 3-4 extra times without compensation, although I've done it plenty. I believe that proper comunication _before _the bid is submitted can take care of most of these problems. :thumbsup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> If you apply 2 that may be specified in your contract and you see it need a 3rd coat. Are you charging or are you taking the hit?


Your the guy estimating the correct time, method and product to complete the job. If it's your contract then the ultimate responsibility belongs to you.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Your the guy estimating the correct time, method and product to complete the job. If it's your contract then the ultimate responsibility belongs to you.


If i know the color _before _the bid is submitted, and *I *didn't spec the correct number of coats to get proper coverage, *I *take the hit.

_If_ at the time of the estimate they tell me its just going to be another coat of white, and then they throw a fire engine red at me.... Change order.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Your the guy estimating the correct time, method and product to complete the job. If it's your contract then the ultimate responsibility belongs to you.


That doesn't answer the question. If the contract reads 2 coat. You perform the work of 2 coats. You can see it needs a 3rd coat. Who is responsible, the contractor or the client?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I spec interior repaints for 2 coats if it is a color change (99% of the time). I usually ask what colors they are thinking and if it is a potential problem color I either warn them about the possibility of a 3rd coat and extra costs or suggest Aura. Usually, at the estimate stage they do not have the colors decided yet.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> That doesn't answer the question. If the contract reads 2 coat. You perform the work of 2 coats. You can see it needs a 3rd coat. Who is responsible, the contractor or the client?


If you gave an estimate(created the contract) to the spec'ed amount of coats and agreed to a price and a expectation of how the product would cover given the quoted amount of coats and product then you are responsible.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> That doesn't answer the question. If the contract reads 2 coat. You perform the work of 2 coats. You can see it needs a 3rd coat. Who is responsible, the contractor or the client?


See post #9. Thats how I try to handle it. But then again not everything is black and white. I regularly put an additional coat here and there. It all depends.....


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks! That's what I wanted to hear. As a professional painter, I believe the client is depending on the professional to give an accurate estimate to complete the job of a professional appearance. My contract states 
A full coverage a minimum of 2 coats. 

Its our job too give the prospect a accurate estimate.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Outside of that it appears you are nickel-ing and dime-ing them.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

It really come down to the type of communication you had when doing the walk through. For me, I would say at least 70% have no clue what the colors are going to be at the time of the estimate. So In this case I will give a price for two coats, if it takes more then it's their dime, not mine.

Pat


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> It really come down to the type of communication you had when doing the walk through. For me, I would say at least 70% have no clue what the colors are going to be at the time of the estimate. So In this case I will give a price for two coats, if it takes more then it's their dime, not mine.
> 
> Pat


Yes I remove the full coverage if they haven't decided on a color. But it's more rare that the prospect doesn't have an idea. I'm not into giving a blind estimate either. It all in the communication though and it the contractors responsibility to communicate the proper procedures.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Yes I remove the full coverage if they haven't decided on a color. But it's more rare that the prospect doesn't have an idea. I'm not into giving a blind estimate either. It all in the communication though and it the contractors responsibility to communicate the proper procedures.


Oh they have a general idea, but when it comes time to put the paint on, its never close to what they were thinking at the beginning. I learned this from experience. So if they are not showing me color chips at the time of the estimate, then I just assume they have no clue yet.

Pat


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I almost always figure on two coats. Obviously some deep tone accent walls may need three. Communication is imperative, as others have mentioned above.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Generally my contract says two coats.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

It depends on the homeowners agreement to pay per coat. I mean people can say as much as is needed, but try applying a lh color to how many is needed for a set price and loose your butt when you have workers on the job. I always state 2 coats, but make it clear that if it requires additional it will be priced accordingly. I always make a note about not choosing LH colors.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

What if on exterior a tinted primer has to be used? If im not on my stores ass the primer is usually WAYY off.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Everyone talks about coverage and C.Y.A. What if you bid a job and the customer is doing the same color and it goes in 1 coat? Do they get a discount or refund?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Everyone talks about coverage and C.Y.A. What of you bid a job and the customer is doing the same color and it goes in 1 coat? Do they get a discount or refund?


I always charge and apply 2 coats, and my contract states that colors are to be submitted 1 week before the scheduled start date. That way there are no surprises. (and I can buy Aura from you for the tough colors)

From a pure law perspective, if your contract states 2 coats only and you apply them in the specified manner you are covered. You fullfilled your contract.

From a moral perspective, if it needs another coat, put it on and learn from your mistakes.

(I sleep good at night)


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> That doesn't answer the question. If the contract reads 2 coat. You perform the work of 2 coats. You can see it needs a 3rd coat. Who is responsible, the contractor or the client?


We always take the hit. If we are doing a residential most of the time we know how many colors we are dealing with and if they are deep bases. If you are doing commerical, you have already bid the job so if takes more than two coats its pretty much tough luck.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> I always charge and apply 2 coats, and my contract states that colors are to be submitted 1 week before the scheduled start date. That way there are no surprises. (and I can buy Aura from you for the tough colors)
> 
> From a pure law perspective, if your contract states 2 coats only and you apply them in the specified manner you are covered. You fullfilled your contract.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have never returned to a client for more money if it needed more coats. Like Biker said do the right thing with your clients, put the shoe on the other foot.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

My contract stated two coats. During the bid / walk-through process I let the HO know that. I also reiterated to them that if they were going to certain dark colors and shades of red that it was possible a third coat would be needed. (Like Biker I wanted to be able to sleep good at nite.) If the HO was contemplating a 3 coat color, I included the coat price in parenthesis in the bid. Since almost all mfg warranties have to do with mil thickness, it always seemed to me to be 2 coats.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I make a joke about it when I'm doing the estimate. I always ask the HO what color direction they were thinking of and say, "Its always the the time that I forget to ask that it ends up a fire engine red that takes 3-4 coats". I'm trying to get them to remember that the color choices have an impact on coverage and price/coats.......


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> My contract stated two coats. During the bid / walk-through process I let the HO know that. I also reiterated to them that if they were going to certain dark colors and shades of red that it was possible a third coat would be needed. (Like Biker I wanted to be able to sleep good at nite.) If the HO was contemplating a 3 coat color, I included the coat price in parenthesis in the bid. Since almost all mfg warranties have to do with mil thickness, it always seemed to me to be 2 coats.


See, there you go, it's not good to nickel and dime people. As a painter you kinda know how many coats it's going to take for that clear base red color your going to use, got to be part of the bid from the start.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Customer always gets what they pay for. If its 2 coats it gets 2 coats. No deviation from the contract. 2 Coats is better than one even if it looks like it covers.


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

CK_68847 said:


> We always take the hit. If we are doing a residential most of the time we know how many colors we are dealing with and if they are deep bases. If you are doing commerical, you have already bid the job so if takes more than two coats its pretty much tough luck.


Don't most commercial jobs spec. 1 coat primer and 2 coats finish, or has that changed?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

VanDamme said:


> Don't most commercial jobs spec. 1 coat primer and 2 coats finish, or has that changed?


Depends on the spec'd product. DTM wouldnt require primer.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Most DTM still require priming.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> I always charge and apply 2 coats, and my contract states that colors are to be submitted 1 week before the scheduled start date. That way there are no surprises. (and I can buy Aura from you for the tough colors)
> 
> From a pure law perspective, if your contract states 2 coats only and you apply them in the specified manner you are covered. You fullfilled your contract.
> 
> ...



Yeah, but that still doesnt answer my question. 

Scenario:

Exterior, same color repaint. Minimal prep, no peeling, minimal caulking/sanding. You sell the job as 2 coats. Everything is great after the first coat, full coverage. 

Do you put the second coat on? Or do you tell the H.O that everything is great, the finish covered in 1 coat, and ask them if they would like some money off the bill and leave it at 1 coat?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> See, there you go, it's not good to nickel and dime people. As a painter you kinda know how many coats it's going to take for that clear base red color your going to use, got to be part of the bid from the start.


Mostly and we have all been there:
There are some colours that are borderline 2 coats, 
you know the light yellow off whites that almost make it.
The job has 200 hours.The customer knows that a third coat will cost more.
Will you sleep better giving the customer(corporate) an extra coat for free
and possibly not making payroll because they will take 60 days to pay?
Or will you sleep better running a good business 
that provides good income for your family and other families.

I think if they get 2 coats they should pay for two.
If they get three they should pay for three....
This only hapens in our business I think


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

George
Shouldn't you, as the professional paint contractor, determine the accurate amount of coats to achieve a full coverage at the time of giving an estimate?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Most DTM still require priming.


Wing.....You are right most of the time, and definitely know your stuff. Somewhat wrong on this one. I guess in some applications you would want to prime, but the majority dont require primers.

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpswe...ges/paint/prd_p29&_pageLabel=fc_productsspecs

Spec's are basically the same for different finishes, and the alkyds. :thumbup:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> Yeah, I have never returned to a client for more money if it needed more coats. Like Biker said do the right thing with your clients, put the shoe on the other foot.


Sure but what if it takes less coats? See post #34


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Sure but what if it takes less coats? See post #34


Yes I do.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

VanDamme said:


> Yes I do.


Lol...nice...but which one do you do? The second coat, or offer up a discount for one coat?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> George
> Shouldn't you, as the professional paint contractor, determine the accurate amount of coats to achieve a full coverage at the time of giving an estimate?


I do my best,
bur after my 25 years in the field, thousands of jobs and colour training, I am not perfect. Maybe some of us here are.
I will make sure that the customer knows that.
They want us to be happy painting there.
We want them to get great service.
They can read well:




> Unless otherwise noted, prices quoted are for two coats on walls, one on woodwork and trim and one on the ceilings.


No need to play games or have anything les than a win-win situation.
for both parties


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Wing.....You are right most of the time, and definitely know your stuff. Somewhat wrong on this one. I guess in some applications you would want to prime, but the majority dont require primers.
> 
> http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpswe...ges/paint/prd_p29&_pageLabel=fc_productsspecs
> 
> Spec's are basically the same for different finishes, and the alkyds. :thumbup:


You bruised my ego 

:laughing:

I can only speak of my experience. As you have seen some of the structures I have painted. I have worked close with my vendors and their DTM's. Can a DTM be applied directly to metal :yes: However most manufactures will not warranty without a primer. 
Now if you were in my area, and you gave me a document stating that BM would warranty the DTM without primer, you'd have a sweet job right now.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> However most manufactures will not warranty without a primer.
> Now if you were in my area, and you gave me a document stating that BM would warranty the DTM without primer, you'd have a sweet job right now.


I dont think that BM has a warranty anywhere on their industrial products, just a satisfaction guarantee. Now if you're talking a written warranty specific for a job directly from the manufacturer.....thats an entirely different thing. Manufacturers will write specific warranty's for a particular system, for a certain job, above and beyond what the label reads. :yes:


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Lol...nice...but which one do you do? The second coat, or offer up a discount for one coat?


Yes! LOL!

I will give a (partial) refund if it covers in one coat and the customer is happy


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

VanDamme said:


> Yes! LOL!
> 
> I will give a (partial) refund if it covers in one coat and the customer is happy


See, thats awesome. :thumbsup: Now the customer knows that your company has their best interests in mind. I bet that will generate some referrals for sure. 

Im not talking about a huge refund, but offering to knock some off is a great idea IMO. I bet many times the customer says "just go ahead and do another coat", but the fact that you offered will definitely leave a good impression.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

George, I can respect that. I for one, wouldn't feel right going tom my client and saying "I thought it was gonna take 2 coats, now you need to pay for a 3rd". To me that's differs none from taking your car to the mechanic, after they have the engine broke down, then they come at you again. There is almost a since of being taken advantage of. I would rather charge for the 3rd coat and deduct later.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Or not :jester:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> I dont think that BM has a warranty anywhere on their industrial products, just a satisfaction guarantee. Now if you're talking a written warranty specific for a job directly from the manufacturer.....thats an entirely different thing. Manufacturers will write specific warranty's for a particular system, for a certain job, above and beyond what the label reads. :yes:


I will never understand why the manufacturer would spec something they can't warranty.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I don't know about you guys, but I've seen many dtm jobs around here fail relatively fast. By fail, I mean flash rusting on the base of metal beams and posts on semi-protected exteriors. I bet 100 bucks they weren't primed first (some may have had rust on them prior, and weren't prepped good). What I know about dtms, is they generally stick fairly good to metal, but don't provide the best corrosion resistance. I think using a primer first could only help protect longer against that. 

On the initial discussion:
If I got a job, and some areas make it with one coat and I've spec'd for two, I usually don't give a discount. Theres many times when a extra coat has been applied at no further charge, and I feel it balances out. I guess I would consider a discount if it involved a huge part of the overall contract and scope, but that hasn't been the case. 

Now when a client decides to change the color after completing entire walls to spec, obviously they get charged for the change.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> See, thats awesome. :thumbsup: Now the customer knows that your company has their best interests in mind. I bet that will generate some referrals for sure.
> 
> Im not talking about a huge refund, but offering to knock some off is a great idea IMO. I bet many times the customer says "just go ahead and do another coat", but the fact that you offered will definitely leave a good impression.


I have learned through experience that you don't get referrals for cutting deals...customers end up thinking that they DESERVED the cut, NEGATING your good gesture of taking food away from your kids


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Harry said:


> I have learned through experience that you don't get referrals for cutting deals...customers end up thinking that they DESERVED the cut, NEGATING your good gesture of taking food away from your kids


Yeah understood. Read post #34 for what the question was


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Shouldn't you, as the professional paint contractor, determine the accurate amount of coats to achieve a full coverage at the time of giving an estimate?


Unless you are omniscient, and you aren't, how is this possible to do without fail? As George Z said, we should do our best. If we think it will take 2 coats, and that is what we bid, we haven't harmed the customer. We bid the job as we honestly saw it. We should, as others have said, warn the customer of the possibility of additional charges for another coat.

To think that we should always know the proper number of coats is to demand the impossible. And to imply that we should eat the cost when we don't achieve that impossible standard is why so many contractors go broke. 

Brian Phillips


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Brian said:


> Unless you are omniscient, and you aren't, how is this possible to do without fail? As George Z said, we should do our best. If we think it will take 2 coats, and that is what we bid, we haven't harmed the customer. We bid the job as we honestly saw it. We should, as others have said, warn the customer of the possibility of additional charges for another coat.
> 
> To think that we should always know the proper number of coats is to demand the impossible. And to imply that we should eat the cost when we don't achieve that impossible standard is why so many contractors go broke.
> 
> Brian Phillips


We quote all of our jobs as 2 coats (walls) 1 coat (trim and ceiling). If it is a radical color we adjust for that. I hear what you and George Z are saying and definetly respect that. One of our selling points is our quotes are firm. We don't jack up the price once we are on the job and discover something we didn't realize during our estimate.

The main reasoning is we don't want to be perceived as that "contractor" that sucks you in and keeps pumping you up for more cash. That being said, I agree it's all about the communications you perform up-front.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> We quote all of our jobs as 2 coats (walls) 1 coat (trim and ceiling). If it is a radical color we adjust for that. I hear what you and George Z are saying and definetly respect that. One of our selling points is are quotes are firm. We don't jack up the price once we are on the job and discover something we didn't realize during our estimate.
> 
> The main reasoning is we don't want be perceived as that "contractor" that sucks you in and keeps pumping you up for more cash. That being said, I agree it's all about the communications you perform up-front.


Usually when I submit the bid, colors are not chosen yet but I try to get an idea if any radical colors are on the horizon.

When they give me the colors, _then _is the time I find best to address any isues. (before painting starts)


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Usually when I submit the bid, colors are not chosen yet but I try to get an idea if any radical colors are on the horizon.
> 
> When they give me the colors, _then _is the time I find best to address any isues. (before painting starts)


I agree - most of the time the exact colors are not picked out but they have a general idea. And if you are talking about an 8 room re-paint and one of those rooms require a deep base red or an accent wall - we'll eat the minimal loss vs. upcharging. Not a big deal - our reputation of firm quotes is more important.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Brian said:


> Unless you are omniscient, and you aren't, how is this possible to do without fail? As George Z said, we should do our best. If we think it will take 2 coats, and that is what we bid, we haven't harmed the customer. We bid the job as we honestly saw it. We should, as others have said, warn the customer of the possibility of additional charges for another coat.
> 
> To think that we should always know the proper number of coats is to demand the impossible. And to imply that we should eat the cost when we don't achieve that impossible standard is why so many contractors go broke.
> 
> Brian Phillips


If you have all the information you need prior to your estimate. A professional should know his products and what product would be best for the substrate and color. What you created is just a loop hole to CYASS, when actuality, you failed at giving a proper estimate.


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

Harry said:


> I have learned through experience that you don't get referrals for cutting deals...customers end up thinking that they DESERVED the cut, NEGATING your good gesture of taking food away from your kids


It's not "cutting deals" if you bid for two coats, it covers like a glove in one, and the customer is aware of this and says it looks great.

Lets see........oh, yeah......happened to me yesterday. The customer didn't ask and doesn't expect me to deduct any money, but I will most likely give back 25-30% of the second coat price.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

VanDamme said:


> It's not "cutting deals" if you bid for two coats, it covers like a glove in one, and the customer is aware of this and says it looks great.
> 
> Lets see........oh, yeah......happened to me yesterday. The customer didn't ask and doesn't expect me to deduct any money, but I will most likely give back 25-30% of the second coat price.


Nothing wrong with that. I don't see that as cutting them a deal. I see that as being honest. Honest day's wage for a honest day's work. I gotta think that client will be appreciative of that. You are doing the opposite of what most perceive contractors to be. Gotta think he / she will tell their friends about your awesomeness!!!


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

There is a side to this that you guys haven't addressed yet. I do mostly NC. I spec primer and two coats (unless its a really cheap one and then I spec one coat).

However, I always make it plain, that when the rest of the subs come in and screw up the walls, I will charge them for a third coat. Of course they look at me like a dawg at a new pan, and then I tell em, Its not my responsibility to clean up after the rest of his crew.

It seems to me that most all of the time that I have to put a third coat on is because some smuck came in a dirty-d up all the walls.

However, I had a pink room that took 4 coats to cover, didn't see that one coming, but I ate it.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> There is a side to this that you guys haven't addressed yet. I do mostly NC. I spec primer and two coats (unless its a really cheap one and then I spec one coat).
> 
> However, I always make it plain, that when the rest of the subs come in and screw up the walls, I will charge them for a third coat. Of course they look at me like a dawg at a new pan, and then I tell em, Its not my responsibility to clean up after the rest of his crew.
> 
> ...


Good point Cap't. I think your scenario is a change order though. The scope of work changed (you are repairing other f-ck ups)


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

> we don't want be perceived as that "contractor" that sucks you in and keeps pumping you up for more cash


Don't see why you need to be so defensive about not being unethical.
I don't live in a word of contractors


> "that suck and pump for cash"


I see things different.
We run a great transparent, pristine business. 
our customer retention and hundreds of written testimonials 
not many can match.

Why? 
Most of our customers want us to make money.
We are not playing a magic game of match the colour perfect.
we run a business We sell the customer hours, 
we work these hours hard.
And here comes the terrible and unethical blood sucking part:
we like to get paid for every hour worked


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

George Z said:


> Don't see why you need to be so defensive about not being unethical.
> I don't live in a word of contractors
> 
> I see things different.
> ...


George Z:

Sorry - I was not trying to come off as defensive and wasn't trying to say you were wrong. No need to defend your position because your company is where I would love to be in the future. I was in no way trying to say your company is unethical (from your posts I know better). I apologize if I offended you - seriously. 

Maybe - as my company grows and evolves I can understand and value what you are saying. Again, we are still young and trying to understand this business. I value your input.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> If you have all the information you need prior to your estimate. A professional should know his products and what product would be best for the substrate and color. What you created is just a loop hole to CYASS, when actuality, you failed at giving a proper estimate.


No loop hole.
An honest *upfront* and transparent understanding, 
that once in a while, the estimator is imperfect.
They get 3 coats they pay for 3.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

George Z said:


> No loop hole.
> An honest *upfront* and transparent understanding,
> that once in a while, the estimator is imperfect.
> They get 3 coats they pay for 3.


I'm just saying, if you have all the info, a professional should know how to bid it. No biggy brother :thumbsup:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Maybe - I am mis-understanding - again. But are y'all saying if you quoted a 2 coat job and after you completed 2 coats you decide it is a 3 or 4 coat job - then you tell the client you will need to charge them for that?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Most DTM still require priming.


:yes: I Agree



NCPaint1 said:


> Wing.....You are right most of the time, and definitely know your stuff. Somewhat wrong on this one.:no: I guess in some applications you would want to prime, but the majority dont require primers.:yes:
> Spec's are basically the same for different finishes, and the alkyds. :thumbup:


I Always primed even with DTM's :thumbup:


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Wing.....You are right most of the time, and definitely know your stuff. Somewhat wrong on this one. I guess in some applications you would want to prime, but the majority dont require primers.
> 
> http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpswe...ges/paint/prd_p29&_pageLabel=fc_productsspecs
> 
> Spec's are basically the same for different finishes, and the alkyds. :thumbup:


Companies still would like to have a prime coat BEFORE DTM, but if you had to use any industrial finish, without a primer, DTM would be the way to go. But it's still better to use a primer first, you just don't HAVE to.


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

Ok. If my father had an interior job, and the homeowner wanted a red as an accent on one wall, for instance, his would bid for TWO coats. One coat of an interior/exterior ultra deep base primer, and ONE coat of a high quality interior paint, like Accolade, Aura, or Duration for instance. No problems covering in two coats. If it was a highly used/washed area, then he would rec. one coat primer, two coats finish.

For exterior, it all depends. If the paint has failed, one coat primer, two coats finish. If it's a repaint because of color change, paint's in good shape, and has a clean, sound surface, and the color is close, one coat is morally fine. if it's clean, but a different color, then two coats finish. 

But a repaint due to not liking a color for exterior is rare. Usually, with my experience, most homeowners let it go to the point it needs to be prepped, primed, and two coats finish.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

KLaw said:


> Maybe - I am mis-understanding - again. But are y'all saying if you quoted a 2 coat job and after you completed 2 coats you decide it is a 3 or 4 coat job - then you tell the client you will need to charge them for that?


No,
the job manager sould know within minutes that a colour would not cover 
in two coats.

Look, I have estimated and painted thousands of places.
I have an above average understanding of coatings 
and even some training on colour.
That would likely make me more knowledgeable than most estimators out there (on hiding)
Despite all that, I am the first to admit I am sometimes imperfect.
There are some people here that are perfect (a professional should always know) 
or at least "eat" the mistake.
Why? is this not a business?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Knowing if colors/products will cover in 1,2,3 coats isn't that difficult, and it surely doesn't mean that I think I'm perfect.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

simmer down boys. you both are greaat!:thumbsup:

lol on the "colour". only a Canadian would spell it like that.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> simmer down boys. you both are greaat!:thumbsup:
> 
> lol on the "colour". only a Canadian would spell it like that.


Sure,
but I am the generous one that did not have the last word.

Colour spelled right, for sure.
Are you guys having the Labour Day weekend off?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Word!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yeah, but that still doesnt answer my question.
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> ...


I have not had that exact scenerio happen. I have "done less" than what was in the contract and figured my costs, deducted them from the original price and reflected that on the final invoice.

I know how I come off here at times, but I really have a problem with screwing customers. It just ain't good business. They normally get MORE than they pay for because I'll see something I can't stand and I'll fix it. (I do make sure to point it out!)


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

This would be a great thread to put everyone's head togeather and come up with a policy for coats of paint for a customer, lol I always thought it pretty simple, if its a red yellow lime green or radical color change it will require more then two coats. Make sure the client is aware of that and all should be good. Communication is key. 

If you just have two coats in the contract and have not explain our out lined about reds etc... and want to charge more, thats whear I see the issue rises for me.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

George Z said:


> We are not playing a magic game of match the colour perfect.
> we run a business We sell the customer hours,


 
George you sell hours??? what do you do when the job takes more hours then you sold???

You dont match colors, come on man your in the painting buisness, no way


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

KLaw said:


> . One of our selling points is our quotes are firm. We don't jack up the price once we are on the job and discover something we didn't realize during our estimate.
> 
> The main reasoning is we don't want to be perceived as that "contractor" that sucks you in and keeps pumping you up for more cash. That being said, I agree it's all about the communications you perform up-front.


OK I got to ask, do you guys do exterior repaints??? do you do carpentry work??? 

their is no way to be able to find all rotten wood on a exterior repaint before starting. how do you handle a firm price for that??

IMO their is no way


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

How bout Paint to full coverage....that sounds like a win win!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> I have not had that exact scenerio happen. I have "done less" than what was in the contract and figured my costs, deducted them from the original price and reflected that on the final invoice.
> 
> I know how I come off here at times, but I really have a problem with screwing customers. It just ain't good business. They normally get MORE than they pay for because I'll see something I can't stand and I'll fix it. (I do make sure to point it out!)


I understand where you are coming from but if a customer is usually "getting more than they pay for" and you are "giving back money" it's as if you are selling yourself as not being worth what you are charging.
I mean why even put a proposal out there. A bid or proposal on a project is like gambling.You are betting on the fact that you know how much it's going to cost to do the project and make a profit. So why should you always come out on the loosing end. If it runs over do you ask for more money??
Not trying to be a d1ck.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> George you sell hours??? what do you do when the job takes more hours then you sold???
> 
> You dont match colors, come on man your in the painting buisness, no way


I don't mean in a T/M way Dave.
Every month I know the hours I need to sell, every week every day.
We all sell labour(hours) don't we?

AmI the only one here that can admit that sometimes I am imperfect
and I was off on a colour?
And if my customer is great about it, I should still tell him:
"forget it The Painttalk guys think you shouldn't pay for the extra coat"


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

> what do you do when the job takes more hours then you sold???


Doesn't happen often and I like to keep it that way. See how good that works?
There are so many jobs that go way under budget it makes up for it.

Call me crazy but... 
I like to run a business that tries to keep job costs close to 50%
net profit at over 10%
Painters that make a great living with benefits and other perks on top of that
A decent salary for some of us at the office.

And by the way over 95% customer satisfaction rate.
Something wrong with my model?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> OK I got to ask, do you guys do exterior repaints??? do you do carpentry work???
> 
> their is no way to be able to find all rotten wood on a exterior repaint before starting. how do you handle a firm price for that??
> 
> IMO their is no way


Exactly Dave.
Do they climb the third story dormers on every estimate?
I don't think so.
But should be the painters responsibillity to do the extra work for free, right?
Every piece of previous bad wood is the painters fault.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Outside of that it appears you are nickel-ing and dime-ing them.


Funny you should say this, in a trade where the homeowner has chiseled down most contractors to the point where they are making basically time&materials at a very low rate - we should then turn around and be the professionals we're not being paid for?

In a professional market with professional pricing, applying a 3rd coat for the purposes of coverage is a no brainer - unless there are unexpected circumstances that go beyond the original scope of the work. In this market, where they have fully insured companies working for $25/man-hour - basically getting away with hired 'help' without having to provide all the tools and insurances - then I'd say no way.

But that's just me. I had one guy earlier this year that wanted one coat of paint on his home and wanted a color change at the same time. I told him you know there is a high probability it won't cover - and then he turned around to me and said - 'yeah, I understand, but from what I understand it's cheaper to get only one coat of paint instead of two'

I looked at the guy, shook his hands, and never returned with an estimate. I knew this guy was a chiseler that was going to try and get a 2nd coat free. And any homeowner that says the words, cheap, cheaper, economize, etc - is not a customer of mine.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> I looked at the guy, shook his hands, and never returned with an estimate. I knew this guy was a chiseler that was going to try and get a 2nd coat free. And any homeowner that says the words, cheap, cheaper, economize, etc - is not a customer of mine.


I have gotten much better at feeling out customers during an estimate. I learned the hard way, when my gut says "No" I should go with my instincts.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I think the real heros of this thread are George Z. and Brian Phillips. It disgusts me how many guys here are wearing this badge of honor of 'doing by the customer right' or whatever dribble/nonsense they come up with.

I've seen how other 'professionals' have behaved in other walks of life. I've seen the most professional Medical Doctors in the finest hospitals in Boston lie straight faced to my old man to cover up their constant incompetence that ranged from misdiagnosis - ongoing testing of other irrelevent tests, to make pretend they were still searching for cause, when they damn well knew they missed the original diagnosis and wouldn't come clean. To an outright caused heart attack by dislodging plaque in his veins, when they were performing other tests that weren't needed to cover up the original misdiagnosis - all in a effort to cover their tracks for culpability. And it worked!

I've seen the whole field of Dentistry - outright F' over everyone - a family member who worked for a dentist long ago witnessed the guy drilling a perfectly healthy tooth and drill too far and killed the nerve - and then charged the guy extra for a root canal. I've seen the whole industry of Dentistry come together in unison and developed price fixing strategies and other tactics - and despte being brought on charges on a national level - have beat it everytime, even though that's what they do.

And then we have these painters, bottom of the totem pole in every respect, and these are the guys that are going to bring integrity and honesty into the world? Here they come to save the day? LOL - haa hahah ha ah aa ha ha ha ah Give it up - this whole thread should be 
a no brainer. If a wall needs a 3rd coat, folks should get charged for it. And if we all worked in unity like the field of Dentistry - this is what folks would come to expect, and would feel good about it.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

George Z said:


> Exactly Dave.
> Do they climb the third story dormers on every estimate?
> I don't think so.
> But should be the painters responsibillity to do the extra work for free, right?
> Every piece of previous bad wood is the painters fault.


We are talking about how many coats in your contract. Not the unforeseen that is outside of your control. Again if you have the info provided to you prior to your estimate, a experienced skilled painter should have no problem determining how many coats. Its not rocket science. I have yet too fail at this. I respect George, Dave and Brians thoughts on this and I do not believe you are robing the clients. :thumbsup:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

There was somebody called Richard Kaller 
Some people hated some people loved what he did for contractors. 
There was something though that some of us agreed he stood for. 
If you worked an hour, charge it. 
Maybe Harry will jump in. He had tons of debates on these issues over the years.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

good job painters, lets stretch this topic out, way out. 

res repaints: 
light to medium pastel/other: 2 coats, and spot prime patching
deep colors: one full prime and 2 finish coats

commercial repaint: 
basically the same, maybe a bit less depending on the situation


how is this a complicated subject? lol.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Plain, I agree. 
Hero? Call me Robin Hood of Painters. 
Transfer money out of the pockets of unsuspecting customers,
into my painters pockets and mine. 
Kidding of course


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

George Z said:


> Plain, I agree.
> Hero? Call me Robin Hood of Painters.
> Transfer money out of the pockets of unsuspecting customers,
> into my painters pockets and mine.
> Kidding of course


In order for Plain to restore his painters powers, he must work together with his Heroes. Working together the evil forces can be destroyed. Restoring all mankind known in existence of this place we call Painters World. The wicked hearts of the Home Owners will beat again, pumping blood through their veins once again. It will be then the Paint Gods will place the Heroes on their throne to be adored by the saved ones. Plain will then become a legend and a great leader known as the Restorer of the Paint Trade. Until then all the laymen painters need to fast and pray to the Paint Gods, may the Gods breath on Plain and the Heroes, giving them the strength to fight this long brutal battle.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

George, I am just sick and tired by the amount of guys entering the trades in the past 10 years with all these cockamamie pre-conceived notions of how to conduct business which basically translates into 'slave' labor. As a true professional entering a household where homeowners have already been exposed to this Lowest common denominator - it gets frustrating. Can you imagine in this day and age telling a homeowner to empty out the contents and having the place cleaned up - and then in return being told 'You're the 'Professional' isn't that what YOU DO?!?!?' Of course 'Professional' in this accusatory sentence is little more than a Euphemism for slave-labor. 

It's high time everybody just got out of the trades and leave them for the true professionals that will take all the money off the tables. There are too many homeowners that have created many an abusive relationship. I know first hand - I remember doing deck restorations for wealthy homeowners for little more than 55 cents per sf and being abused at how much money it was. Or painting the front of a home 3X because the homeowner felt 'It didn't look right' even though the homeowner initially demanded a 1-coat contract to save money. How little I knew back in the day!


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Painters...painters...

So much drama:no:


Shut up and paint :thumbsup:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

:lol:


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

> I've seen the whole field of Dentistry - outright F' over everyone


Really?



> And if we all worked in unity like the field of Dentistry


That explains a lot about you.

You know......for a person who can't make it in the painting bidness, you sure have a lot of advice for everyone.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I think the real heros of this thread are George Z. and Brian Phillips. It disgusts me how many guys here are wearing this badge of honor of 'doing by the customer right' or whatever dribble/nonsense they come up with.
> 
> I've seen how other 'professionals' have behaved in other walks of life. I've seen the most professional Medical Doctors in the finest hospitals in Boston lie straight faced to my old man to cover up their constant incompetence that ranged from misdiagnosis - ongoing testing of other irrelevent tests, to make pretend they were still searching for cause, when they damn well knew they missed the original diagnosis and wouldn't come clean. To an outright caused heart attack by dislodging plaque in his veins, when they were performing other tests that weren't needed to cover up the original misdiagnosis - all in a effort to cover their tracks for culpability. And it worked!
> 
> ...


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I want some of these masks


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This is another of those topics that boils down to communication skills. Communication at the estimate stage, the contract agreement stage, and the field work stage. 

How many threads have we seen where the contractor obviously wasn't thorough and clear enough in one of these three stages, things go bad and they rant about the customer.

It's easier for a lot of guys to throw on a free third coat and bitch about it than to communicate and resolve the issue with the homeowner. I think the biggest point gabe is making here is to be a business, not a painter.

The past few years have spawned a new breed of contractors so desperate to get work (price it low, nail it down fast), bang it out and get paid, that they aren't taking the time to handle each aspect of communicating at a professional level. This points to the need to create more estimating and sales opportunities so every job isn't so life and death. But that requires marketing, which requires money, and more selling means less painting time which means hiring painters who can't paint as good as you do. It is amazing how painters can take a model that is essentially pretty simple and become paralyzed by it. Meanwhile, those who figure it out continue to do well.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

2 coats for 95% of my contracts.

There is the ODD time where I might quote 1 coat for a quick refresh coat on an exterior every couple years.

I detail exactly the scope of work, and if there are more coats needed, or any other unforseen conditions, then the price will be adjusted accordingly.

Usually unforseen conditions are rare, but the customers are usually pretty good about them. Of course it has to be something that was not possible to foresee, not just a crappy estimate for me to not be responsible, if it's MY mistake I take the hit, if it was impossible to foresee, I get paid accordingly.


I make sure the customers are aware of coverage issues, tell them a quick story about a 9 coat red room I did, and let them know generally what would work as far as covering in 2 coats goes. I've never had a problem getting paid for the work I've done, or when I've had to increase the price based on more coats.

Educate the customer, keep them updated through the job, and they'll be your best friend, most of the time


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

George Z said:


> I don't mean in a T/M way Dave.
> Every month I know the hours I need to sell, every week every day.
> We all sell labour(hours) don't we?
> 
> ...


I agree with you George. I always include what We agreed on and what we do not agree on in a contract. I also verbally speak to them about picking out colors and that some colors that are classified as low hide will not cover as well and could require multiple coats beyond the 2 which is out of my hands. After I explain it all to them and they still choose the lh color, but only want the 2 coats I have them sign off on it as they have been warned. Sometimes people have to realize that we doi educate homeowners about these things, but when they see a designer color on HGTV they just have to get it and as a contractor in business to make a profit margin to keep me happy, they get that price handed to them. 

I guess the next time I goto a burger joint and forget to add cheese to make my perfect burger that I get it for free even though I did not ask for it? Better yet, lets all put a net 30 on over at the BK the next time we stop for lunch


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


>


If I saw that he would get an old fashioned Southern punch to the jibbs...


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

once again, an ultra deep primer would solve a lot of people's problems.......


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> once again, an ultra deep primer would solve a lot of people's problems.......


I agree to a point, but I only find this helps if you're doing something that will require many many coats. If I prime, I do 2 coats over the primer no matter what.

It's actually more economical for me to chance the third coat, then to require prime plus 2 in my contract.

If it is borderline 3 coats it doesn't matter, but if they pick a deep red I will use a proper primer.


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