# Help fight illegals



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

13% of employers nationwide use the Fed's E-verify. The GAO says it is 99.5% accurate.

It expires in several months, with no action by the senate. And the bill can't come up for vote because Sen. Menendez (D-NJ), has a hold on it. He wants to attach a rider to allow tens of thousands of new visa's for families of illegals to come here. Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid have made no attempt to push the renewal of E-verify through because they'd like to see it go away.

Tired of this illeagal mess, tell your senator how you fell. Go here:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Representative:

https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

this can be stopped bout as easy as sayin were gonna stop ALL drugs from enterin our nation,,,,yea right, you all might as well get use to it man, its too late. every human on this rock wants to be here, and just like the dope. theyll find a way. just be glad we still have our 2nd amd. rights. (for now) they play hell takin my steel! there aint nothin that can be done bout the humans comin here. the handle on the faucet is broke my brother. cant shut it off, just live your way and let the intruders live theirs. incase of a bad crossin. shoot'em!


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

crow said:


> just live your way and let the intruders live theirs. incase of a bad crossin. shoot'em!


I would rather take a gun shoot than get the hex put on from brother Crow.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

get used to it,,,,,,this is the way the politicians and big business want it,,,,,you are not going to change it,,,,,,,the politician you call wont change it

when life rains lemons, make lemonade (hire a bunch of ********, and reap huge profits from them)

chances are you will not get in trouble,,,,its happening everywhere (it's cool)

these illegals will work from 6 am - 10 pm,,,,and bring their own lunch,,,,,,,youll barely hear a complaint from them 

get used to it,,,,,,this is the wave of the future,,,,,figure out how to capitalize on it,,,

possibly learn spanish.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Problem is, here in California, they have contributed to the ongoing mortgage crisis. Tens of thousands of undocumented Illegals, were able to purchase homes they could never afford thanks to the street level brokerage Thugs. We need to begin the purging process by not hiring them, and start mass deportation. NOW!


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Illegal Aliens--Hmm--let me see.

They work cheaply-they work at things many self righteous legals wouldn't touch with a sherlock 8-12 footer-they bring lunch for themselves, they don't complain-they pick fruits and vegetables no one else will harvest-they live in substandard housing-they struggle with health care like many others-- That's just for starters

Illegal aliens traveled across the border to make a better life for themselves and their families. Illegal aliens often get returned home, only to cross over here time and again. The struggle to do better puts them in peril from all sides.

I have a deep and abiding respect for the Latino culture. Generally speaking, Latinos have a tremendous devotion to family--especially mothers. Of course, those here wanting to smear will point out numerous examples of Mom getting beaten-up or drug abuse and so on. No news there--except we have the very same problems with our own legal population.

Yes--perhaps you may want to learn some Spanish, hire a couple of illegal latinos and try to sponsor them for citzenship. If you help out and are sincere, your investment will pay hugh dividends.

Trashing illegal aliens is just one more way to say "I'm better than you are." The only reason you and I are legal is a sperm and egg met in the United States, Mom stayed here and had you and me. A simple twist of fate.

Are there many problems associated with illegal immigration? You bet--a boat load of them. But--I can tell you the folks in government who let banks profit on the backs of anyone who could not afford a mortgage are to blame--not the poor sobs who had a dream and only a couple of bucks. Wouldn't you want a home?--Don't you want to do better? 

Tell you what--find a legal US resident and ask them if they want to pick some fruits and vegetables for a living--hell--painting on a 40 foot ladder beats the sh_t out of that!

JTP


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

ata boy JTP. I see no reason to discourage people from bettering their lives. I do disagree with people that take advantage of that.


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

JTP said:


> Illegal Aliens--Hmm--let me see.
> 
> They work cheaply-they work at things many self righteous legals wouldn't touch with a sherlock 8-12 footer-they bring lunch for themselves, they don't complain-they pick fruits and vegetables no one else will harvest-they live in substandard housing-they struggle with health care like many others-- That's just for starters
> 
> ...


Well said! 
Finally welcoming some first results of low VOC regs.
Re-generated brain cells in action.


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Bottom line is those immigrants that arrive and stay in our country illegally are law breakers. Regardless of the country they come from. Many immigrants come to the USA to find a better life and pursue citizenship in an honorable manner. Many do not. In Chicago, the police are not allowed to ask law breakers if they are in country legally or not, it is a refuge city. Maybe the machine is simply looking for a few more votes? Should we also jail and support lawbreakers, or should we send them back to their home ? Happy painting, Paul.


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Your all foreniers to me, intruders to my grandfathers, but, we all gonna live among one another wether you like it or not. If your one a them folks that think it can all be fixed somehow, then you need to be enlightened bout your surroundins. things are gonna get worse. bess get you some land in the middle a nowhere and hord buncha large cal. firearms and such my brothers and sisters. that way at least you can die proudly like a man should. not with a Gov. ring in your nose! I give this world bout 5 more years and hell is gonna come up to greet us all. hell even our friends hate us as a nation. its a fact that if the pack wolf is too overbarrin on all the other wolfs, they sooner or later join forces and take the pushy wolf down. this nation needs to tend to itself and leave others alone. (just my words)


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Today is a good day to die, my son.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Today is a good day to die, my son.


:blink: What you talkin bout Paul?????


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

How about the lack of sunspots Crow, we goin into a mini ice age?


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Little Big Man


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Dyeing proudy like the red man says.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Dyeing proudy like the red man says.


You gotta wait 5 more years brother Paul. So, live life the best you can, touch someone in a positive way everyday.:thumbsup:


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Bottom line is those immigrants that arrive and stay in our country illegally are law breakers. Regardless of the country they come from. Many immigrants come to the USA to find a better life and pursue citizenship in an honorable manner. Many do not. In Chicago, the police are not allowed to ask law breakers if they are in country legally or not, it is a refuge city. Maybe the machine is simply looking for a few more votes? Should we also jail and support lawbreakers, or should we send them back to their home ? Happy painting, Paul.


I believe Crow is right. Of course you can send them back--they will just return. The pull of a better life is the motivation. 

Illegal aliens are motivated to do better for themselves as quickly as possible. Gaining citizenship the right way is, of course preferable.

Native American Indians most certainly have a legitmate beef. Talk about immigration! Bunch of disease, cow humping, white guys decide to land on the East Coast--what do you get? A lot of very dead Indians. 

Were the Europeans invited guests to the land we now call the U S of A? The explorers were better at warfare and weaponry. Indians lose--Europeans win. 

So let's not get too high on our horses when it comes time for others to do better for themselves and families. We absolutely need to manage this reality much better. I am open to suggestions--flip-non thinking remarks are not invited. 

Paul--this comment is not targeted specifically at you. You bring much to the dialog.

JTP


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Providing for your kids and family should never be wrong.
Illegal maybe, wrong no.
Most of us would do the same if we were forced to.
As far as illegal activities, we all have seen them and participated
in one or two before....right?
Go after corporate crime, government corruption,
what about employers paying these poor people slave wages.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

George Z said:


> Go after corporate crime, government corruption,
> what about employers paying these poor people slave wages.


exactly George.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

JTP said:


> Illegal Aliens--Hmm--let me see.
> 
> They work cheaply-they work at things many self righteous legals wouldn't touch
> 
> ...


It's easy to trash someone with a view different than your own, but can you make your point through logic and reason?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Some facts:

http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/Mikulski%20H-2Bs%20-%202pgr.pdf


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

*Barbara Jordan on the costs of mass immigration*​"Legal immigration ... has costs, as well as benefits. Immigrants with relatively low education and skills may compete for jobs and public services with the most vulnerable of Americans, particularly those who are unemployed or underemployed. Jobs generated by immigrant businesses do not always address this problem. Concentrated and/or rapid entry of immigrants into a locality may impose immediate net costs, particularly in education, where expenditures are required to meet the additional and special needs of newcomers. Concentration of new immigrants can exacerbate tensions among ethnic groups. ... Unless there is a compelling national interest to do otherwise, immigrants should be chosen on the basis of the skills they contribute to the U.S. economy."


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> It's easy to trash someone with a view different than your own, but can you make your point through logic and reason?


BB--You make excellent sense and raise many cogent issues. I believe the discussion here has great merit and can be discussed in a meaninful way.

I am not implying you said anything wrong. I believe you have a very legitimate view of the illegal alien issues. Your views are important and bring the diversity of opinion we cherish in our wonderul land.

It's good to have you lay out your argument in a coherent and meaninful manner. Rather than defend my perspective, I think it more important others look at our posts and comment.

I don't have any beef with anything you said. I am sure we could reach an armistice over a couple of beers.

JTP


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

*I Live on the Eastern Shore and have had a woman of latino orgin come the wrong way on a one way street at me. So I am biased about this.*



*Harvest of death on the Eastern Shore*

Articles
By Bill Burke, Virginia-Piolot, October 10, 2005

Rogue vehicles driven by unlicensed drivers have been responsible for a string of deadly accidents on the Eastern Shore. Two people were killed and two injured when this Ford Escort driven by a Hispanic farm worker ran a stop sign Oct. 1 in Accomack County. 
The Ford Escort was racing north on rural Seaside Road, its occupants headed home from a wedding, when it ran a stop sign at 55 mph.
The driver of a Ford F-150 traveling east through the intersection never saw the Escort, police said.
The T-bone crash killed the driver of the Escort, Rene Leyva-Perez, and 4-year-old Daniel Salazar, who was in the back seat. Daniel’s pregnant mother, Marina Salazar, and the driver of the pickup were injured.
When police arrived, they discovered that Leyva-Perez had no auto insurance or driver’s license – only a laminated ID card issued by the tomato-packing plant where he worked – and that the car was registered to a woman in Chesapeake and had Michigan plates.

ACCIDENT TIMELINE:
The 13 fatal accidents involving Hispanic workers on the Eastern Shore since 2002 have killed 18 people. In all but two incidents, the car that caused the accident had out-of-state plates.
Aug. 19, 2002
U.S. 13: Intoxicated migrant worker hit and killed while walking illegally on U.S. 13 at night. Plates: South Carolina.
Aug. 29, 2002
Va. 178: Car runs off road and strikes trees and pole, killing three. Plates: Tennessee.
Nov. 4, 2002
Va. 609: Driver killed when he runs into ditch, loses control and car overturns. Plates: Tennessee.
Feb. 3, 2003
Va. 187: Head-on collision kills two when driver blacks out and crosses median. Plates: Virginia.
July 24, 2003
Va. 609: Driver killed when vehicle runs off road and overturns. Plates: Florida.
Aug. 31, 2003
U.S. 13: Car with three occupants overturns, killing one; driver flees. Plates: Virginia.
Oct. 9, 2003
U.S. 13 (Business): Driver killed when he loses control of car, strikes tree then utility pole. Plates: Tennessee.
Nov. 2, 2003
U.S. 13: Driver killed when car runs off road at high speed and flips end-over-end five times. Plates: Tennessee.
Dec. 20, 2003
U.S. 13: Head-on collision involving two cars with migrant workers; driver of one dies the next day in Charlotte, N.C. Plates: North Carolina.
Dec. 24, 2003
U.S. 13: A head-on collision killed Debbie Thomas, above, a mother of three. Plates: Tennessee.
May 10, 2004
U.S. 13: Driver and passenger killed when they are thrown from one car and struck by two others. Plates: Texas.
July 22, 2004
U.S. 13: Driver killed when he loses control of vehicle and it overturns. Plates: Florida.
Oct. 1, 2005
Intersection of Va. 180 and Va. 600: Driver and child passenger killed when car runs stop sign and is broadsided by a pickup. Plates: Michigan....

In the Escort’s wreckage, they found empty cans of Modelo Especial – acclaimed in Mexico as “the elite of beers.”...
Since 2002, more than 90 people have been injured and 18 killed on the Eastern Shore in accidents involving Hispanic workers driving rogue vehicles.
The fatalities represent about one-fourth of the 71 highway deaths on the Eastern Shore in that period, even though the year-round Hispanic population makes up only 5 percent of the region’s 51,000 residents. Those numbers swell during tomato-picking season, from July through early November, when most of the fatalities occurred.
Accidents like the one on Oct. 1 have helped make the 77-mile stretch of U.S. 13 from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel to the Maryland state line one of the most treacherous highways in Virginia. In 2003, the fatality rate – deaths per miles driven – on that span of U.S. 13 was more than four times the rates on Interstates 64, 81 and 95 in Virginia.
In all but three of the fatal accidents in which Hispanics were at the wheel, the drivers had no insurance. In most cases, the vehicles had no inspection stickers, the drivers carried no license and alcohol was a factor. The vast majority of the victims in the fatalities were Hispanic....

Tennessee plates
The state of Tennessee appears to be an enabler for many of the illegal drivers.
Up and down the Eastern Shore, in the work camps and housing complexes where migrants and year-round laborers live, Tennessee plates abound. Eastern Shore law enforcers suspect there is a flourishing black market for Tennessee tags....
Tennessee does not require identification or proof of insurance when a vehicle is titled and plates are issued, as long as the motorist pays cash. Most states require identification or proof of insurance; Virginia requires both.
Tennessee state Sen. Bill Ketron said his state’s legislature has failed to close the loophole because of pressure from the powerful auto insurance industry, which he says “wants to be able to cherry-pick who they sell to,” rather than being forced to insure high-risk drivers. He plans to introduce a bill during the next legislative session, which begins in January, that would toughen titling and registration requirements....
...on the Eastern Shore, “Somebody is making it very easy for these drivers to get Tennessee tags,” Annis said. “It’s all very fishy.”
And deadly. In the 13 fatal accidents since 2002 involving Hispanic workers, six vehicles bore Tennessee tags....


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

So, you still think illegal immigration is a victimless crime? That it does not hurt anybody? That we should turn a blind eye towards illegals to make a buck for a few people? That the goverment should prosecute it's own citizens for various crimes while ignoring illegals?

I don't share that view. Am for LEGAL immigration, and anybody who is willing to go through the system to better themselves. And yes, might even hire him or her and pay them a fair wage. Which gets us back to the start of this topic. It was about saving a program that help business hire Legal workers. Not "smearing", denigrating or bashing anybody. But saving a tool that keeps business from commiting a crime. Some businesses don't care, but many were using the system. Why penalize those trying to do the right thing by doing away with the tools that keep them from breaking the law?


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*"I Live on the Eastern Shore and have had a woman of latino orgin come the wrong way on a one way street at me. So I am biased about this."*

*I understand your frustration. However, I can find hundreds of similar horror stories. Ethnicity is not the issue. Bad choices create bad results. The articles you posted are heart breaking. I can tell you about two dear friends of mine of died while out for a spin on their brand new Harley--my friends never saw death coming--good thing too! The driver who never stopped at the stop sign was not an illegal alien.*

*JTP*


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I personally have scrupulously avoided commentary on this one. Its explosive, and too easy to see lots of lines drawn in sand. 

I have been surprised by the outpouring of support for the immigrant workforce since Bikerboy's original thread. 

Do we jump on and ride that wave for immediate gratification or do we look for a more long term solution to the difficulties we all have encouraging new and legal demographics to enter the trades?


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I personally have scrupulously avoided commentary on this one. Its explosive, and too easy to see lots of lines drawn in sand.
> 
> I have been surprised by the outpouring of support for the immigrant workforce since Bikerboy's original thread.
> 
> Do we jump on and ride that wave for immediate gratification or do we look for a more long term solution to the difficulties we all have encouraging new and legal demographics to enter the trades?


Monte Man--

Don't stay away--this is a major issue and we need major answers. I am not opposed to changing my mind if given a good reason. I think BB has some valuable thoughts.

Victim less crime and illegal aliens? BB--are you referring to my statements?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

JTP said:


> *"I Live on the Eastern Shore and have had a woman of latino orgin come the wrong way on a one way street at me. So I am biased about this."*
> 
> *I understand your frustration. However, I can find hundreds of similar horror stories. Ethnicity is not the issue. Bad choices create bad results. The articles you posted are heart breaking. I can tell you about two dear friends of mine of died while out for a spin on their brand new Harley--my friends never saw death coming--good thing too! The driver who never stopped at the stop sign was not an illegal alien.*
> 
> *JTP*


You can guarantee with my background, that I can use lots of fingers and toes to count people I know and friends that died in motorcycle related accidents. And none that I know were caused be illegals.

Big difference is that if the illegal was not here, they could not kill somebody. You can't logically use the tragic death of your friends, to justify the allowance of illegal immigration. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. If so:


We'd rape the children of child molestors.
We'd kill the entire family of mass murderers.
We would steal all the belongings of a thiefs family.
We'd hate most of the world because they hate us.
We would run over the people who ran over your friends on motorcycles. (and run over them again if they were still alive)
 Pretty grusome analogy but you get what I mean. All of those above get puninshed. Now I am not stating that just coming across the border makes you a violent criminal, but it does make you a criminal all the same. If we decide not to punish them (which in most cases, is a plane ride to the country of orgin) why do we bother to punish any non-violent crimes? Nobody got hurt? Because it gives you a warm fuzzy?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

JTP said:


> Monte Man--
> 
> Don't stay away--this is a major issue and we need major answers. I am not opposed to changing my mind if given a good reason. I think BB has some valuable thoughts.
> 
> Victim less crime and illegal aliens? BB--are you referring to my statements?


There are so many opinions that to me are counterintuitive that my posts are all incompassing. Except for the previous one which was directed at you. (still love ya, just don't agree with ya.)


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

And as I am posting these long and numerous posts, more are being put up. So, I am going to take a break and relax, breath and read for a while.


----------



## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I am divided on this issue. On one side I'm mad that our govt. cherry picks the laws it wants to enforce. On the other side my experience has been that the local boys here in Nashville don't want to work. They say they do but what they really want is a pay check and a smoke break. If I get a SS# or tax ID# that the IRS won't kick back then I'm happy.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

We are a nation of immigrants, and all of the cultures we represent, culminate into what I would call the “ American Culture”. It is one that encourages opportunity, fights for justice, demands tolerance, and gives support to our world neighbors. It may not be perfect, but apparently it’s better then any other place. Why else would millions of immigrants continue to seek refuge here?

Immigration, without controls, has resulted in the saturation of individual cultures that do not necessarily assimilate into the American culture, particularly in California. As a result, barriers are developed between cultures by way of language and learning. This can create communication difficulties that often manifests into animosity.

It’s not that most aren’t hard working people, I contribute my own work ethic to my Hispanic heritage, I just don’t think we have the resources to support an endless population flow.

Builders in California have taken advantage of the cheap labor which I believe has contributed to the housing glut and resulting economic catastrophe.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If you want to enter this country and make a better life for yourself and your family...fine.

The key word is ILLEGAL. Legal immigrant ...fine.

So I take it all of you bleeding hearts have no problem with ex-felons and convicts working for you under alias's, not paying taxes, paying insurance or abiding by any laws that keep your family safe just to save a few bucks on payroll?

I have no respect for illegals. I dont care if they are hispanic, brazilian, irish, russian, muslim, ect, ect ....come here legally, pay taxes and be held accountable for your actions under our laws if you choose to live here.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> The key word is ILLEGAL. Legal immigrant ...fine.


touche


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

daren said:


> I am divided on this issue. On one side I'm mad that our govt. cherry picks the laws it wants to enforce. On the other side my experience has been that the local boys here in Nashville don't want to work. They say they do but what they really want is a pay check and a smoke break. If I get a SS# or tax ID# that the IRS won't kick back then I'm happy.


*Good point Daren*--cherry picking laws--HMM- a whole new topic to consider. Do you think the country would be in the present financial straits if the banking laws were enforced?

*Biker Boy*-- I am not and expert painter;nor an expert anything. I do understand your view--it is a prevalent view--it is a considered view--I even agree with most of your thinking on the matter.

My main point here is: Those that work hard to support a family are respectable people no matter where they come from. Perhaps I should have defined my stance better. 

Illegal aliens should be respected for their effort to make a better life. I don't believe I said illegal aliens should not be deported or that immigrations laws should not be enforced. 

*NEPS--*See my comment regarding cherry picking laws. All laws should be enforced equally. In reality--the wealthy power elite don't go to prison for breaking the law--if they do, they have a pool and tennis court on grounds. See the economic breakdown of those serving non com in the military. Mostly poor folks looking to boot strap up the ladder. When was the last time you saw a congressman's kid go to war or jail for breaking the law?

I say--apply the law evenly and across the entire economic spectrum.

JTP


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

McCain and Palin have sons going to Iraq. What will you say next ...they'll just be pushing pencil in the rear with the gear.

Life isn't fair John. I dont see what the laws for the rich have to do with the issue at hand. I've never seen a Illegal Immigrant CEO of a fortune 500 company. ILLEGAL's have to go. Come here legally and that is fine. There is no gray area. It is cut and dry.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

JTP said:


> Illegal aliens should be respected for their effort to make a better life. JTP


You hit a chord with this one John. I'd like to say a few not nice things ...but I do like you. I think it should read "Anyone who wishes to become a lawful US citizen and enters this country legally should be respected for following their dreams for a better life.

How will you feel if one of these illegals (who had a record a mile long and could not get into the country legally) harms one of your family members.


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

I seen this show few years ago on that discovery thing, kinda reminds me a all these words we make. there was a buncha monkeys in these trees, they all gettin long fine, then one monkey reaches over and picks a bug off another monkeys monkey. and the whole damn tree went crazy! never seen the likes of such, till now, lol! like it or not alotta our personal veiws are based on our upbringin, where, when, by whom, (or what), if your raised by folks that hate a certain thing or people, then the odds are against you on liken it or them. brakin the laws is breakin the laws no matter who, what, where, when. im sure that there monkey knew that he aint sospose to pick bugs off another monkeys monkey! and it caused hell. I still say,,, the handles broke my brothers, it cant be turned off! adapt to your new way of life here in our great nation. youll get use to it, as for me, Id be more concerned bout the trillions of dollars every month for "nation wide" welfare! among your own peoples! if every man that could would work, and get rid of the hand out that we pay for! these aint elegals, but they cost us far more! think of what could be done with this trillions of dollars? mabey another war? invade some damn body, take their oil or something. its the American way.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

crow said:


> I seen this show few years ago on that discovery thing, kinda reminds me a all these words we make. there was a buncha monkeys in these trees, they all gettin long fine, then one monkey reaches over and picks a bug off another monkeys monkey. and the whole damn tree went crazy! never seen the likes of such, till now, lol! like it or not alotta our personal veiws are based on our upbringin, where, when, by whom, (or what), if your raised by folks that hate a certain thing or people, then the odds are against you on liken it or them.
> 
> Who's talking hate? Just because one holds a point of view about certain people that does not equate to hate. In fact the view I hold is less about certain people than their legal status in my country. And don't make the mistake that it is only peoples from south america, we have a problem across the board from all countries.
> 
> ...


.............


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I'd like to keep my mouth shut on this one, before I start chewing on my foot. I have too many thoughts and some are self contradictory. But that never stopped me before 

A few things said here got my back up, one was the targeting of Hispanics. The subject here is "Illegal immigrants", not illegal Hispanics. Let's not even mention the origins of this invasion. 

One major stumbling block for me is that fact that my ancestors came over on the Mayflower, I'm a result of some original illegal immigration, and some of the worst. Immediately on shore, my ancestors robbed graves for food. And later they stole the land and killed the LEGAL residents of this land. 

So do I become a hypocrite and say, "now that I am here settled, no one else can do what I did" ? In a word, yes. 

Quite frankly illegal immigration is a war, a cultural war. Across the world, through the centuries, cultures have been lost due to "illegal immigration".

It's too late to correct the wrongs my ancestors enacted. I would, however, like to preserve the culture we have now. 

Unfortunately someone is profiting big time off the backs of illegal labor. Some will say that the liberals want them for the voting block, maybe that's true. But look to what little motivation those on the other side of the aisle have to do anything. There are large profits to be made from illegal labor. It's a win win for both "liberal" and "conservatives" to turn a blind eye. 

So with all the various ambivalence I feel, I have simplified the issue for myself, and it comes down to this: "what part of *illegal * do you not understand?"


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> I'd like to keep my mouth shut on this one, before I start chewing on my foot. I have too many thoughts and some are self contradictory. But that never stopped me before
> 
> A few things said here got my back up, one was the targeting of Hispanics. The subject here is "Illegal immigrants", not illegal Hispanics. Let's not even mention the origins of this invasion.
> 
> ...


Darn good stuff Da Arch.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> I'd like to keep my mouth shut on this one, before I start chewing on my foot. I have too many thoughts and some are self contradictory. But that never stopped me before
> 
> A few things said here got my back up, one was the targeting of Hispanics. The subject here is "Illegal immigrants", not illegal Hispanics. Let's not even mention the origins of this invasion.
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
JTP wrote in Post # 36: *I don't believe I said illegal aliens should not be deported or that immigrations laws should not be enforced.*
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

darch--Acknowledging your own struggle with the issue, relative to your own heritage, was refreshing. You document your ambivalence and take a position. Had the Native Americans shared your perspective and had the means to protect their homeland, families, and integrity--most here on this site would not be typing a thing. You covered this point by saying *" It's too late to correct the wrongs my ancestors enacted. I would, however, like to preserve the culture we have now."* Life is full of contradictions and if more of us acknowledged decisions are often emotionally based rather than objectively based, we all would be better for the mentioning.

If the political environment was not conducive to illegal labor, illegal immigration would be front and center. It is obvious our national leaders have other bones to chew.

And your historical comment is right on as well. Cultures die off when invaded by those more powerful than the exisiting one. I believe the demograhics indicate the United States will be 60 % Hispanic by 2060. Although you mention the discussion is about illegal aliens, not illegal Hispanic aliens, it seems apparent most are writing about this group. I haven't read anyone objecting to the influx of other nationalities.

JTP


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> McCain and Palin have sons going to Iraq. What will you say next ...they'll just be pushing pencil in the rear with the gear.
> 
> Life isn't fair John. I dont see what the laws for the rich have to do with the issue at hand. I've never seen a Illegal Immigrant CEO of a fortune 500 company. ILLEGAL's have to go. Come here legally and that is fine. There is no gray area. It is cut and dry.


My friend NEPS-- Pretty simple--those with the money and power have all the required means to side step prosecution for illegal activities.

There are a few well known examples of sons and daughters of politicians who do volunteer for the armed services. I believe they are sincere in their commitment. And--it is an extraneous issue to the topic.

Life--for me--is not black and white or literal--it is ONLY shades of gray. Once again, I have to reinforce that you do not need to agree with my opinion to be a friend. I welcome all perspectives.

JTP


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

JTP- quote: “I believe the demograhics indicate the United States will be 60 % Hispanic by 2060. Although you mention the discussion is about illegal aliens, not illegal Hispanic aliens, it seems apparent most are writing about this group. I haven't read anyone objecting to the influx of other nationalities.”

The American culture balances on its diversity. We cannot support an imbalance by over saturation of one particular culture. Hispanics are singled out as a problem because of our border proximity with Mexico, and the overwhelming number of undocumented workers. This is not bigotry, just a demographic, and geographic reality. Without implementing laws we already have in place, the cultural shift you suggest in 2060, will likely arrive much sooner, and with grave consequences.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

CApainter said:


> JTP- quote: “I believe the demograhics indicate the United States will be 60 % Hispanic by 2060. Although you mention the discussion is about illegal aliens, not illegal Hispanic aliens, it seems apparent most are writing about this group. I haven't read anyone objecting to the influx of other nationalities.”
> 
> The American culture balances on its diversity. We cannot support an imbalance by over saturation of one particular culture. Hispanics are singled out as a problem because of our border proximity with Mexico, and the overwhelming number of undocumented workers. This is not bigotry, just a demographic, and geological reality. Without implementing laws we already have in place, the cultural shift you suggest in 2060, will likely arrive much sooner, and with grave consequences.


Good points CApainter: I am calling no one a bigot regarding this thread. I believe this topic needs this type of discussion--at a national level. Unfortunately there are so many situations requiring intense thought and problem solving, it is difficult to define what to tackle first.

JTP


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

*American Suicide*

We know **** Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado . In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington , DC , filled to capacity by many of America 's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California . He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.





Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America 





The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States . He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America . It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'" ! 





"Here is how they do it," Lamm said:





" First, to destroy America , turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada , Belgium , Malaysia , and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nige ria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, Corsicans and Muslims." 





Lamm went on:





" Second, to destroy America , invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal; that there are no cultural differences. Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds





" Third, we could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec ' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentry and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.' Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultu ral subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities." 





"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school." 





" My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology .' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population." 





" My sixth plan for America 's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precet. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games.. A common enemy, Persia , threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will Balkanize America as surely as Kosovo. ' 





" Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits. Make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-cultum, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America , it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them." 





In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book 'Mexifornia' His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America .. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book." 





There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America Take note of California and other states. To date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength ." 





Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Just to take a break from the serious. 

JTP


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Bender said:


> We know **** Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado . In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington , DC , filled to capacity by many of America 's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California . He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW Bender! That was an enlightening post. Pointing out the possible future, by using historical fact is scary. Reminds me of a quote (don't know who said it).

"Those who fail to study history, are doomed to repeat it."

I think that is a problem with the United States. People are so confident that it can't happed here, that they just ignore the problem, or beleive there is nothing they can do.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The book Collapse, by Jarred Diamond is all about societies that failed and why. We have similar patterns, just more modern ways to blow it.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Just watched a very interesting show on HDnet, comes on at 7 eastern.
http://www.hd.net/worldreport.html segment 628


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

*Complimetns to all*

I just want to compliment all the participants here on discussing a highly charged issue with decorum, thoughtfulness, and respect.

You won't see this control and maturity on many other internet forums.

Good show. 








:thumbup: :thumbsup:


----------



## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

I just left a job, again where I was the only white guy painting, the rest are hispanic.
Before I even picked up the brush, they were acting as if I can't paint or keep up with them, as usual. Also, as usual, I kicked their ass with speed AND better quality.

There's an awful lot of hispanics here legally already, combine that with the illegals and it adds up. Do we need the economic strain in these times? It IS illegal to come here. Boy, let me do something illegal and my ass is in jail pretty quick.

They do not have advanced experience, in general. I've worked on crews over the years and it's always the same. When I go for the quality, they respond with false machoism. Some Co. owners appreciate the extra effort and others are just interested in production. We don't need any illegal people here taking jobs. Try going to another country and doing the same.

My .02.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

you can complain about illegals all you want,,,,,,,,its not going to change,,,,,the govt and big business want them here.

my white american apprentice is being replaced by a mexican on monday, and im happy. the mexican will show up on time, and bring his lunch,,,,,,a hard working mexican is taking his place. this is business.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

John,

Sorry to inform you but we are replacing you with JoseThePainter as of Monday. While he is not as witty as you or as knowledgable, his cost per post is 1/4 of what we are paying you. We will also be saving money on insurance and taxes on Jose's posts and the risk of getting caught by the Fed's is well worth the reward of saving a few bucks so Nathan can buy a new boat. 

We believe the transition from you posts to Jose's will be smooth, because we can barely understand 90% of your posts and to be honest the quality has gone down significantly over the last few months. Thank you for your time here at Painttalk.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> you can complain about illegals all you want,,,,,,,,its not going to change,,,,,the govt and big business want them here.
> 
> my white american apprentice is being replaced by a mexican on monday, and im happy. the mexican will show up on time, and bring his lunch,,,,,,a hard working mexican is taking his place. this is business.


If your Mexican is an illegal, then you are a punk that has lost respect from me and I'm sure many others here. I had a legal Mexican working for me at one point. He was no different than any other worker I had. He lasted a few months till I got rid of him. I felt bad for him and hooked him up with my roofer buddy. 1 month later he ended screwing him over. 
So, be careful with your Mexican and the thought pattern you have about him for he can be the WRONG Mexican.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Tim
+1
John, I hope he is an American first, and a Mexican 2nd


NEPS, you mean Juanthepainter. Jose is in jail


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That must have been a tough decision, John. Let us know how it works out for you,,,,


----------



## Boyfromthenorth (Jun 18, 2008)

I know I'm only a junior member here, so I don't want to step on any toes. But her goes anyway. There's a couple things. The first is that the whole notion of labeling a person as "illegal" is not only unwholesome and condescending, its contrary to the basic principles of the constitution. I am a painter, a BM salesperson and a law student. It seems interesting to me that a country that totes freedom like a merit badge would label a person as illegal when the basis of human and natural rights law is that NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL, their actions and discretions are. Secondly, all of this "invasion" talk seems to further the America vs. the World ideal. I find it difficult to empathize with someone who seems to put people who are not American citizens on a separate level from those of us who are fortunate enough to be born in this incredible country. I agree with the contributors who talked about the importance of bettering one's self and even going as far as to appreciate the people who have made hard to decisions and have even gone as far as to break our laws for the betterment of themselves and their families. I'm studying immigration law, and I can tell you that it is an uphill battle for people from countries that are in poor shape.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott,

You missed your calling, either that or SNL Weekend Update should never have let you go.

:thumbup:

-Bill


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Scott,
> 
> You missed your calling, either that or SNL Weekend Update should never have let you go.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill. I got to laughing so hard I had to pull the post for fear of injury to myself or others. Humor is sometimes risky around here.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Thanks Bill. I got to laughing so hard I had to pull the post for fear of injury to myself or others. Humor is sometimes risky around here.


OH COME ON ! repost, if you can find it. Funny is GOOD. Humor HEALS.

(DAMN, next time I'm gonna quote the classics in my response!)


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Thanks Bill. I got to laughing so hard I had to pull the post for fear of injury to myself or others. Humor is sometimes risky around here.


Loved it V, should have left it up. humor is always a good thing.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

GOOD News,

I hit return, return, return, etc and my computer still had it cached. I've cut and pasted and saved on my desktop. I WILL NOT repost without permission from the author.

Scott? May I ?

-Bill


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> you can complain about illegals all you want,,,,,,,,its not going to change,,,,,the govt and big business want them here.
> 
> my white american apprentice is being replaced by a mexican on monday, and im happy. the mexican will show up on time, and bring his lunch,,,,,,a hard working mexican is taking his place. this is business.


WTF? I know way more Americans that bring their lunch, show up on time and go above and beyond the call of duty. Come clean on your Mexican John, is he legal or illegal????? Phuck you for feeling the way you do.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

daArch said:


> GOOD News,
> 
> I hit return, return, return, etc and my computer still had it cached. I've cut and pasted and saved on my desktop. I WILL NOT repost without permission from the author.
> 
> ...


I am stepping in for Scott. I just became his spokes person. Arch, you have our permission to repost.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

wimp


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Boyfromthenorth said:


> I know I'm only a junior member here, so I don't want to step on any toes. But her goes anyway. There's a couple things. The first is that the whole notion of labeling a person as "illegal" is not only unwholesome and condescending, its contrary to the basic principles of the constitution. I am a painter, a BM salesperson and a law student. It seems interesting to me that a country that totes freedom like a merit badge would label a person as illegal when the basis of human and natural rights law is that NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL, their actions and discretions are. Secondly, all of this "invasion" talk seems to further the America vs. the World ideal. I find it difficult to empathize with someone who seems to put people who are not American citizens on a separate level from those of us who are fortunate enough to be born in this incredible country. I agree with the contributors who talked about the importance of bettering one's self and even going as far as to appreciate the people who have made hard to decisions and have even gone as far as to break our laws for the betterment of themselves and their families. I'm studying immigration law, and I can tell you that it is an uphill battle for people from countries that are in poor shape.


Boy,

I can't speak for the others, but the term "illegal" is just that. I have a HUGE problem with the _undocumented_ workers who work outside of the laws and regulations that I am burdened with. We here in American who are "fortunate enough" to have been born here live and work withing the limitations as defined by law. (you seem to draw an unfair distinction between those born here and the others who have entered legally and obtained documentation and even citizenship) We compete against others and would rather do so on an even playing field. The _undocumented_ workers do not pay SS or insurance. This enables their bosses a HUGE advantage over those of us who play by the rules. That is unfair and UNamerican and is ILLEGAL !

You mention freedom, may I remind all that with freedom comes RESPONSIBILITY.

You say "NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL, their actions and discretions are" I agree. But for the sake of brevity, we call people who cross our borders illegally and who work with no regard for our tax and insurance laws "illegal immigrants" because that describes their actions and discretions very well. 

People who work and do not pay their fair share of taxes are in fact STEALING their freedom and robbing us of our livelihood.

What can I say. 

I have no problems with people who want to make a better life for themselves. But PLEASE do it above board. Please accept the RESPONSIBILITY of working in America. That's all I ask.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> Boy,
> 
> I can't speak for the others, but the term "illegal" is just that. I have a HUGE problem with the _undocumented_ workers who work outside of the laws and regulations that I am burdened with. We here in American who are "fortunate enough" to have been born here live and work withing the limitations as defined by law. (you seem to draw an unfair distinction between those born here and the others who have entered legally and obtained documentation and even citizenship) We compete against others and would rather do so on an even playing field. The _undocumented_ workers do not pay SS or insurance. This enables their bosses a HUGE advantage over those of us who play by the rules. That is unfair and UNamerican and is ILLEGAL !
> 
> ...


Great post Bill.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

timhag said:


> I am stepping in for Scott. I just became his spokes person. Arch, you have our permission to repost.



Sorry Tim, I'd like to, but I do have a modicum of ethics - I was born here  :thumbsup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I would only agree to it with the understanding that the piece is not intended to insult John, rather to spoof the situation and how in the grand scheme of things we sometimes do need to keep it all in perspective. I only retracted it because in some cases my satirical writings have caused tension, when, as Bill and Tim suggest, it should have the opposite effect.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

f'-john ...like he hasnt given you a ton of crap before....wimp


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I would only agree to it with the understanding that the piece is not intended to insult John, rather to spoof the situation and how in the grand scheme of things we sometimes do need to keep it all in perspective. I only retracted it because in some cases my satirical writings have caused tension, when, as Bill and Tim suggest, it should have the opposite effect.


OK, I'm taking that as permission. 
AND SO with that understanding and explanation, I am reposting a gem 

*AND* NEPS, Timhag, and I have got your back :thumbsup:

thanks for reconsidering



vermontpainter said:


> Saturday, September 27, 2008
> 
> (AP) - On the heels of the War in Iraq, the sub-prime mortgage crisis,
> 
> ...


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> That must have been a tough decision, John. Let us know how it works out for you,,,,


I am sure it wasn't a hard decision, I have had plenty of the "white Americans" john talks about as many others out there have had. 

There is a since of entitlement to the younger generation (and I am not that old to be saying that)They want to work and when they do they want big bucks for no exp. they want there smoke breaks and there cell phones and want to leave 5minutes early and show up 5 minutes late.

I will take an Mexican or Polish, Czech, Russian helper any day as long as there legal.

Out of the 4 grand parents I had 3 came here just in the 1940's the other 1890's. Out of the 3 in the 40's they got there papers straight, knew English prior to coming and got jobs with the union (grand fathers did) and taught there children to be Americans.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Taking sides on this issue is inflamatory. Agreeing or disagreeing with rationale is helpful, insightful, and develops a personal logic and airing of opinion.

I repect the fact johnthepainter shared a business decision and told us why he is proceeding the way he is. You are obvioulsy free to agree or disagree. Name calling, however, is not a productive or corrective method. 

If you agree with a poster, it would be helpful to expand upon your reasons for agreement. If you disagree with a poster, it would be helpful for us to understand your reason for disagreement.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JT

You must be referring to NEPS. He was calling me a wimp. I am pissed but in time I will forgive him, just as I forgave John the Painter for that one time when, in defense of Sev, he called me a lowlife scumbag. We all disagree sometimes but we seem to keep moving forward.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

JTP
Relax friend ....some of this has been a joke. 

It is amazing how many people believe John is serious. Do any of you have a sense of humor?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

VP
Good post ......I'd like to think I helped to get the juices flowing on that one.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Tempers flare, our emotional side (left brain, btw) gets agitated, we respond hastily--sometimes regretfully. Once you hit the send button, it's gone. 

I believe the Internet has unlimited capacity to educate. Painting draws us to PT, but our humanity drives the conversation. 

We have some very fine writers here. Subtlety is not my long suit. We are a diverse group. Not everyone gets the joke for various reasons. Lots of times we get bent out shape about a post that was meant to be funny but was misinterpreted.

Often, a poster comes the middle of a thread, doesn't read the whole thread, and gets slammed hard. I suppose I am saying that fiercely held beliefs create a rich environment for misinterpretation.

JTP


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Do any of you have a sense of humor?


:yes:


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> JTP
> Relax friend ....some of this has been a joke.
> 
> It is amazing how many people believe John is serious. Do any of you have a sense of humor?


If it's not a joke, Phuck him, hows that? That is not name calling. Is only my feelings.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

hiring this particular legal mexican was an easy choice,,,,i dont care what his nationality is,,,, some of my best freinds in the marine corps were mexicans, so all you haters can slobber on the roscoe 

when my apprentice aggravated me one to many times, i decided to replace him

why are you complaining? this is a business.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If you dont care what his nationality is why do you call him a mexican if he is legal to work and reside in the States.. Why not "the new guy" or by his name. What does it matter. Do you think he tells his friends the his is working for a Polish guy?


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

whats it to you dufus?


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I knew I posted that compliment about the tone here too soon.

Come on guys, we don't want a mod to close the thread. PWG is out on the town as we speak, so there's still time to kiss and make up (ewwwwww!)

John, I gotta say that when you first posted the fact that you hired a Mexican you allowed one to infer you did not care if he were illegal or not (oooops, excuse me, _*undocumented*_) You basically threw out a red herring as troll bait. I hope it wasn't intentional.

Please read all the posts. NO ONE gives a crap about another's ancestry or even if he just landed. We DO care about playing by the same rules that we adhere to. Our concern is all about LEGALITY. Plain and simple.

Now if someone gets up on his bigoted, myopic soap box and starts denigrating ANY one solely based on race, religion, creed, or origin, you can bet your azz we'll all join in by tar and feathering the SOB and riding him outa town on a rail.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

No need to kiss.....although John might want to. I get a kick out of ole johnny-boy. I laughed out loud when I read dufus....:thumbsup: good stuff


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> No need to kiss.....although John might want to. I get a kick out of ole johnny-boy. I laughed out loud when I read dufus....:thumbsup: good stuff



Well obviously you got a thicker skin than I do, but that ain't no news. Us mayflower madames are _sensitive_  :thumbup:

(should I be admitting that in public?  )


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

baiting here at painttalk???? say it aint so.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> baiting here at painttalk???? say it aint so.



Damn ! you got me ! good one.

(i gotta stop believing what I read)


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

if any of you hacks actually read my post, youd see i clearly mentioned illegals,,,,,,and i also mentioned hiring a mexican

god bless mexicans,,,,especially when they bring in those big football sized bundles of burritos wrapped up in foil,,,,,,,egg&potato,,,,chorizo&egg,,,

if any of you fools think i like paying for entitlement programs for ******** you are misguided,,,,


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

and i'm sorry if i offened polish peeps by insinuating that john was one of you peeps ....my bad


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> if any of you hacks actually read my post, youd see i clearly mentioned illegals,,,,,,and i also mentioned hiring a mexican
> 
> god bless mexicans,,,,especially when they bring in those big football sized bundles of burritos wrapped up in foil,,,,,,,egg&potato,,,,chorizo&egg,,,
> 
> if any of you fools think i like paying for entitlement programs for ******** you are misguided,,,,


Yo Johnthehack ...maybe you should of said Mexican-American. Just by simply calling him a mexican you are categorizing his nationality which would mean that you are not hiring a american. What heritage was the white guy he replaced? Did you refer to him by his heritage? 

I dont even know why I'm trying to make sense of Johnthehack .......


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> hiring this particular legal mexican was an easy choice,,,,i dont care what his nationality is,,,,


I'd say,,,,pretty good chance he can,,,,help,,,,you figure out those tricky,,,,commas too,,,,,,,

You,,,,don't,,,,paint all,,,,these,,,,commas into the,,,,signs you paint,,,,do you?,,,,


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Wow, this is still going on? let me throw a twist in the game, wich bothers you more? illegals on your soil, or the fact that your great nation has and is going to accept gay marriges and such. wich one gets under your skin the most? the illegals dont curse our nation, the other will. (call your gov. on that one bikyboy.) makes my skin crawl man. "pumpa12inem"


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

crow said:


> et me throw a twist in the game, wich bothers you more? illegals on your soil, or the fact that your great nation has and is going to accept gay marriges and such. wich one gets under your skin the most? the illegals dont curse our nation, the other will. (call your gov. on that one bikyboy.) makes my skin crawl man. "pumpa12inem"




AHHH, and now a word from the gay bashing crowd. 

Ya know, apologies to PT for being a tad harsh, but if you learned how to spell and write, you MIGHT appear to be somewhat intelligent and taken seriously. But alas, you come across as ignorant, both in your bigoted views and your command of the language you're trying to use to communicate. 

I find that the most vociferant gay bashers are not so secure with their own sexuality. What's in YOUR pants ?

Sorry, I'm intolerant of your intolerance


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Boyfromthenorth-quote "I agree with the contributors who talked about the importance of bettering one's self and even going as far as to appreciate the people who have made hard to decisions and have even gone as far as to break our laws for the betterment of themselves and their families."

As much as I care about the suffering of others, particularly for those who weren’t as fortunate to have been born here, I will not condone the breaking of laws to suit their individual interests, regardless of their harrowing stories. We are talking about millions of people entering this country every year. 

Our Nation’s survival depends on its boundary of laws. Without them, there will be chaos. 

Should I feel as much sympathy for the crack dealer? After all, he’s just another disenfranchised youth trying to make a better living for himself and his family.

Good luck with your law studies. You’ll make a good lawyer for the ACLU.


----------



## scpainting (Sep 13, 2008)

has anyone tried to hire "americans"? i found many who apply dont "want" to work. by americans i mean anyone with legal citizenship or a right to work in the united states of america. :laughing:


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

scpainting said:


> has anyone tried to hire "americans"? i found many who apply dont "want" to work. by americans i mean anyone with legal citizenship or a right to work in the united states of america. :laughing:


Every job I'm on, the customer has hired an American - me.

All my painting buddies have hired Americans.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

what an easy crowd


----------



## fcsoldier (Jan 24, 2008)

My only problem with them is...

If they are going to be living here they need to charge what we do. Working 100.00 a day and painting 5 house's a week is hurting all of us. 

BID THE JOB FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH


----------



## fcsoldier (Jan 24, 2008)

daArch said:


> Every job I'm on, the customer has hired an American - me.
> 
> All my painting buddies have hired Americans.


I am from Boston,ma there is not many legals in mass yet. I moved to Virginia its like Mexico. 

When they come up there and 3 are painting a house in 2 days for 600.00 you will be a little bothered.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*johnthepainter*

OK--so you are playing this one hard and fast eh? my friend?? It is apparrent to me, at this point, we are being played with.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I am not bright enough to distinguish jokes from those expressing a real and legitimate point.

I do not think the subject deserves an entire sub-thread devoted to pissing people off.

JTP


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fcsoldier said:


> I am from Boston,ma there is not many legals in mass yet. I moved to Virginia its like Mexico.
> 
> When they come up there and 3 are painting a house in 2 days for 600.00 you will be a little bothered.


Im not sure where in Boston your from but you need to open your eyes a little wider. The painting industry here is flooded with immigrants ....and Im sure most illegal. Every help wanted add I post I recieve 90% of all applicants as illegals looking for work.


----------



## fcsoldier (Jan 24, 2008)

All the chinese there for the most part is legal. There is no mexicans in boston. 

I am from Dorchester


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

fcsoldier said:


> My only problem with them is...
> 
> If they are going to be living here they need to charge what we do. Working 100.00 a day and painting 5 house's a week is hurting all of us.
> 
> BID THE JOB FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH


I disagree. Bid the job according to your skills, overhead, and profit margin.

As long as they pay mandated insurance, all applicable taxes, and don't use materials that "fell off a truck", I have no problem with anyone charging $100/day. I will compete on the value of my work against theirs. 

This is, after all, the USA. All I ask for is a level playing field. 

The more $200 rooms that are painted and fail, the more business us quality orientated professionals will have in the near future. 

Bring it on! ....... but fairly and legally.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

fcsoldier said:


> All the chinese there for the most part is legal. There is no mexicans in boston.
> 
> I am from Dorchester


Brazilians FC ...tons of em


----------



## fcsoldier (Jan 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Brazilians FC ...tons of em


Yeah for sure, i forgot about them. 

In Virgina its all mexicans


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

BB, great thread. I owe you a beer:thumbsup:


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

One thing I find interesting in most discussions regarding illegal immigrants is that no mention is made why they are illegal. That is, specifically what law(s) are they breaking and are those laws moral?

At one time it was illegal to harbor escaped slaves. At one time it was illegal to serve blacks as equals with whites. Anyone who broke these laws was engaged in illegal activity. However, those laws were immoral.

Any discussion of illegals that does not address the laws they are breaking is dropping context and failing to address the real issue.

Brian Phillips


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian said:


> One thing I find interesting in most discussions regarding illegal immigrants is that no mention is made why they are illegal. That is, specifically what law(s) are they breaking and are those laws moral?
> 
> At one time it was illegal to harbor escaped slaves. At one time it was illegal to serve blacks as equals with whites. Anyone who broke these laws was engaged in illegal activity. However, those laws were immoral.
> 
> ...


Come on Brian. We are not talking about slavery or racial discrimination. We are talking about people that enter the borders illegally and to not abide by any of the laws that govern our country. Why should I pay taxes and run my business legally when my competition harbors illegals, pays them less and does not pay insurance or taxes on them. I think that is the issue we are talking about here. Taking business away from honest companies by driving prices down from having lower overhead and expenses by cheating the system.

Do you hire illegals or check your subs for them? Im sure subs use them and do not report them. I think views are very different for business owners depending on what side of the fence they sit on.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Come on Brian. We are not talking about slavery or racial discrimination.


The principle underlying support for slavery is the same principle underlying opposition to illegal immigrants.



NEPS.US said:


> We are talking about people that enter the borders illegally and to not abide by any of the laws that govern our country.


This is where you are largely wrong. A large percentage of the people who are deemed illegal enter the country legally.

To comment on this issue without knowing why anyone is regarded as illegal is taking a very superficial approach to the debate.

Brian Phillips


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

By entering the country through dubious means (illegally) they are proving a lack of moral and virtue before they have stolen their first American dollar.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian said:


> The principle underlying support for slavery is the same principle underlying opposition to illegal immigrants.
> 
> 
> This is where you are largely wrong. A large percentage of the people who are deemed illegal enter the country legally.
> ...


Any proof to back up your "facts" or is this just your opinion?

Illegal is breaking the law. Staying here on a expired visa and entering the borders illegally. Same difference. You can dance around it with words but in the end it is illegal.


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Not being affected directly (outside the US), I can think the following:
There is a reason you are facing this problem.
These people are being used for low wages(very low sometimes)
That being the case, why not go after the ones that engage in that immoral activity.
All this "tough" talk by the "tough guys" is easier when they basically
aim it toward and attack the weak and the marginalized.
If the "scapegoats of the day" were paid fairly, no one would be talking
about them bringing down wages right? 
*So why don't you go after the source of the problem?* (this is a real question)
During tough economic times, the herd always attacks the weak.
The were the Turks in Germany, Japanese in Canada, Moroccans in France, the etc.
It's the same old story repeating itself.
Time to read the Grapes of Wrath again....


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brian said:


> The principle underlying support for slavery is the same principle underlying opposition to illegal immigrants.
> 
> A large percentage of the people who are deemed illegal enter the country legally.
> 
> ...


Slaves weren’t standing outside the local hardware stores begging for jobs. They were forced into labor by farmers and plantation owners, without much, if any compensation. That was clearly a practice that needed to be terminated through legislation. 

Undocumented workers, on the other hand, who stand in hordes around our hardware stores begging for jobs, en masse across this country, requires the implementation of legislation already enacted, to stop the economic hemorrhaging. Meanwhile, they continue to reap the benefits from a raped system.

I don’t see the comparison with slavery.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I dont blame the poor bastard trying to feed himself or his family, I blame the employer that is cheating the system and taking advantage of these guys.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Especially the poor gay Mexican using Behr driving a Toyota eating sauerkraut listening to reggae


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Illegal is breaking the law. Staying here on a expired visa and entering the borders illegally. Same difference. You can dance around it with words but in the end it is illegal.


As I said, it was once illegal to harbor slaves. By your argument, those who harbored slaves should have been thrown in jail as they were breaking the law. That's not dancing around with words, that is taking your words seriously.

Your position is that what is illegal is wrong. I disagree, and my slavery example demonstrates why. 

Every individual has a moral right to pursue his values without intervention from others, so long as he respects the mutual rights of other individuals. He has no right to force others to provide for his sustenance or well-being, just as other have no right to force him to provide for theirs. At the same time, nobody has a right to prevent others from pursuring their well-being. 

As George Z points out, there are always scapegoats. If you study American history, you would see that in previous decades it was the Chinese, the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, etc. When a wave of immigrants reach our shores, those immigrants invariably become the cause of every problem, real or imagined. It wasn't true before, and it isn't true now.

To consider a human being illegal absolutely disgusts me. How can a human being be illegal? 

The fact is, the US immigration policies are completely arbitrary. They are based on quotas per nation, and if that isn't a racist policy I do not know what is.

If someone wishes to come to America to make a better life for himself and his family, he has every right to do so. If he wishes to come here to mooch off the system, he can stay where he is and starve. Again, nobody has a right to force others to provide for his sustenance.

The arguments against illegals are based on false premises. A primary argument is that they burden our health and education systems. Most people think it is fine if "natives" mooch off the system, but as soon as some Mexican does so its wrong. The problem isn't the nationality of the parasite, the problem is condoning parasitism.

A second argument is that illegals drive down wages. In a free market, individuals are free to exchange goods and services at mutually agreed terms. So long as no party is compelled to act against his choice, the government has no business interfering.

Historically, in free economies wages typically remain relatively stagnant. However, the standard of living rises as the cost of goods and services decreases. This does not mean that the wages for a particular individual remains stagnant, only for a particular skill level. As an economy grows, the skills demanded increase. Those who improve their skills see their wages increase. Those who don't see them stay the same or even decrease.

Economically the arguments against illegals are ridiculous. Morally the arguments are hideous.

If you want more information here are a few links: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4675 and http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5138

Brian Phillips


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

pedro stopped by today. he came with another mexican also looking for work, they are both experienced painters. they asked whether they should bring any tools,,,i said no, just wear whites.

they are both legal, and had ssn#'s.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Dare I join?

Here's my opinion - There are illegals in the country who work hard, want to learn, and will produce very good quality work when guided. There are also illegals who can't match the quality of your work and aren't as fast as you. Hmmm..... similar to legals isn't it? Some people won't provide as high of quality as you and your business will, others will blow you out of the water. This topic really isn't a matter of whether or not illegals work hard or are good at what they do. Some are, some aren't. And trust me, I have seen illegals produce top quality work without the macho attitude and egos that many legal painters love to stroll around with.

Here's a question:

Let's say a woman and her husband cross the border from Mexico. They come into the states with a great attitude, drive to get ahead, and motivation to improve their lives. They settle in in Chicago Illinois. Man gets a job busing tables at a local restaurant and the woman works two shifts in a dry cleaners. They make a modest living and have a small two bedroom apartment. In a few years they have their first child followed by another about a year later. Fast forward to 2005 and the father dies in an accidental shooting in downtown Chicago. In the police departments investigation, they realize that this man has a family that is illegally in the US. The thing is, his kids are citizens, but his wife never got her papers. So, in the middle of the tragic death of her long time husband, the wife is contacted by INS. Deportation hearings are held and the mother is sent back to Mexico stranding the Kids in Chicago with no parents. Is this right? It really happened.

How many kids do you think will be left with no parents if the government listens to the bones heads on this site that are saying "start deportation immediately"? We are supposed to be living by the motto: "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness." Does this only apply if you are born a US citizen? Are you not allowed to pursue happiness if you are Mexican, Cuban, etc? Look, there are bad seeds that come to the US. There should be some type of immigration control. But you can't just start deporting everyone. It is irresponsible in every sense of the word. When it comes down to it, the government screwed it all up to begin with. First they want to secure the borders, then they become lax about border control, then they want to seal the borders, then they don't know what to do. Now, we have thousands of illegals and some say deport them, some say grant them amnesty, and in the end, no one knows what to do. It's easy enough to say get rid of them without thinking of the complications of doing so. Just another failure of our government. Too many agendas in Washington lead to so many ridiculous issues in this country that it's amazing to me we are having debates like this rather than going to DC and asking how all of this happened in the first place.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian ...are you singling me out here ....because if you want to start throwing mud around again we can start all over again of your use of subs and illegal subcontractors that you hire. You can word it any way you want to help you sleep at night telling yourself your not responsible but you are. As a business owner contracting work for money you are.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

So in your view Brian why dont we just tear down the borders and let anyone come and go as they please and I can pay for their kids to go to college. Great plan.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i think this will work out good.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Brian ...are you singling me out here ....because if you want to start throwing mud around again we can start all over again of your use of subs and illegal subcontractors that you hire. You can word it any way you want to help you sleep at night telling yourself your not responsible but you are. As a business owner contracting work for money you are.


I wasn't singling anyone out. I responded to the thread. You responded to me. I responded to a specific statement you made, but my comments were general in nature.

Now however, I am singling you out. Interestingly, you make statements with no evidence and fail to address a single line I wrote. You accuse me of slinging mud and then accuse me of hiring illegals and offer no evidence. You seem to have forgotten our phone conversation. If you wish to make arbitrary statements about me, you have that choice, but I will not participate.

You seem to think that since I defend a position you don't like, I am guilty of taking the actions that you don't like. That's a very specious position. I think the income tax is immoral, but I still pay my taxes. I think zoning laws are immoral, but I obey them. In other words, merely because I think a law is immoral does not mean that I violate it. What is legal and what is moral are two different issues.

If you wish to continue this discussion in a rational manner, I'm open to doing so. If you wish to continue to just respond emotionally then I will spend my time on more productive pursuits.

Brian Phillips


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> So in your view Brian why dont we just tear down the borders and let anyone come and go as they please and I can pay for their kids to go to college. Great plan.


Apparently you missed the part where I said that no individual has a right to force others to pay for his well-being. Forcing you to pay for their college is immoral, and I would oppose it. I also oppose forcing you to pay for your neighbor's child to go to college.

Not to be rude, but perhaps you should read the post a little more carefully.

Brian Phillips


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Brian said:


> I wasn't singling anyone out. I responded to the thread. You responded to me. I responded to a specific statement you made, but my comments were general in nature.
> 
> Now however, I am singling you out. Interestingly, you make statements with no evidence and fail to address a single line I wrote. You accuse me of slinging mud and then accuse me of hiring illegals and offer no evidence. You seem to have forgotten our phone conversation. If you wish to make arbitrary statements about me, you have that choice, but I will not participate.
> 
> ...


You told me over the phone that you do not check to see if your subs or their empoyees are legal .....do you forget? I guess so. When I questioned you you said it wasnt your responsibility. I think it is.

We will never see eye to eye on any topic. Do not ask to call me. Dont bother IM'ing me. This is not emotional. I just think your way of thinking is ridiculous. Go spend your time on more productive pursuits. Bye, bye Bri.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

very few posts are read through here at painttalk,,,,,,,half a post typically


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> very few posts are read through here at painttalk,,,,,,,half a post typically


good thing you keep your posts under 20 words


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

crow said:


> Wow, this is still going on? let me throw a twist in the game, wich bothers you more? illegals on your soil, or the fact that your great nation has and is going to accept gay marriges and such. wich one gets under your skin the most? the illegals dont curse our nation, the other will. (call your gov. on that one bikyboy.) makes my skin crawl man. "pumpa12inem"


Actually have. I have personally been to see my representatives, (didn't get to see them, but was in the office and left my opinion) called them (number is in my cell phone) and email on a regular basis. Doesn't make me a better man than anybody here, just I walk the walk.
Complaining is easy, action is quick and easier. You can watch things happen, make things happen, or wonder what the heck happened. Which one are you?


----------



## ComRemodel (Dec 11, 2007)

_The thing is, his kids are citizens, but his wife never got her papers. So, in the middle of the tragic death of her long time husband, the wife is contacted by INS. Deportation hearings are held and the mother is sent back to Mexico stranding the Kids in Chicago with no parents. _

Little understood is the fact that the kids are NOT citizens until they reach the age of 18 and petition for it at which time they will then be entitled. So they should have been deported along with the mother, however I have a hunch that the REAL story is the mother wanted them to stay.

And Brian, we have laws in this country. We really don't want to hear your opinions on how you wish things were.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Bender said:


> BB, great thread. I owe you a beer:thumbsup:


And all I wanted was to get people to save the "E-verify" system? Go figure. I'll take a Corona! (kidding!)


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Maybe our government should pump a trillion dollar into Mexico like were doing to Iraq and if Mexico was a better place to live they wouldn't want to come over here.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

ComRemodel said:


> And Brian, we have laws in this country. We really don't want to hear your opinions on how you wish things were.


Really? So when I express my opinion that I wish contractors knew more about overhead and its recovery, or how to market better, or how to sell at a higher price, you don't want to hear that?

Brian Phillips


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hey COM,

The story is in the Chicago Tribune Archives if you would like to read. Try not to post without doing your homework - you will get attacked by the dogs in here. 

The kids were CITIZENS - just like I said. Their grandmother, who is in the country legally helped them gain citizenship in grammar school. The grandmother had also passed by the time that their father died and their mother's deportation began. So, again I ask, is it right? Should these kids be put in foster care because their mother wanted them to have an education? Should the mom have to lose her kids? Laws are laws. But don't you think that being human comes first? We are banishing a mother because she didn't take an American History test? Come on.

And don't forget, unless you are Native American, at one point, someone in your family was an immigrant as well. The same thing that you are condoning was done by someone in your own family. Were they wrong too? Should they have been deported? If so, would you appreciate the fact that they were and be happy to be living in France, Italy, Great Brittan, Etc? This is quite the double standard. It was ok for your family to immigrate 100, 200, 300, or more years ago, but now it shouldn't be ok for anyone else to come in?

Shovinistic isn't it? Now that you're here, lock the gates, no one else comes in.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

mexico should be the 51st state. lets get them all legal, and paying taxes.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

some painting contractor in houston uses illegal aliens?


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

ComRemodel said:


> . We really don't want to hear your opinions .


 
BB are nothing but opinions, get over yourself, you dont have to read them if dont want to, and the only reason people come to bb is for other people opinions, its just to bad when they dont agree with yours lol


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Brian said:


> As I said, it was once illegal to harbor slaves. By your argument, those who harbored slaves should have been thrown in jail as they were breaking the law. That's not dancing around with words, that is taking your words seriously.
> 
> They were, but what does that have to do with the here and now?
> 
> ...


........

....


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

biker you aint a treehugger are ya? one a them save the world and its ways? round here we just mind our own, see we dont live in your concrete jungle with over populated areas, now when the weridos come through here, they never stay long. or they never leave. one a the two. as for crying to your gov. give me a break brother. the machine is too big, I stay clear of anything to do with it,(besides taxes), its like this ol 62 pan I had, i learned from being tossed over the bars and the kicker catchin my calf as my foot slipped off it, not to ever trust the damn thing, if you trust or have any faith in your gov.....your crazy. I agree 100% with brian. you all just cant see past your faces to see the truth. you still think that everything should be takin care of by callin or mailin your gov. (sorry DArch) I forgot you gotta real serious fetish bout spellin, hope it didnt cause any rashes and such.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Hey COM,
> 
> The story is in the Chicago Tribune Archives if you would like to read. Try not to post without doing your homework - you will get attacked by the dogs in here.
> 
> ...


 
I love this line of dis-agreemnet. Nobody here is saying stop immigration, just its illegal form. What is so hard for people to understand? Yes our ancestors came here, but legally. 

And what happened to responsibilty? The woman couldn't apply for citizenship? Didn't she have an idea what could happen? I think it is great that she wanted her children to do well and was willing to sacrifice, but was that not her choice? You really beleive she bears absolutely no responsibilty?


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Alright, I'm done for the night. We'll have to agree to dis-agree.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

so out of curiosity, how would everyone or anyone feel if I went to mexico, picked out the best painting candidate, and sponsored him or her to come back here?

I had some Chinese food last night. The Chinese people working there were some of the hardest working, most polite people I have ever seen. I should hire one . . .


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

sleeping wont solve this immigration problem.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

no, chinese people are to short.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> no, chinese people are to short.


HA! Nah they were all as tall as I am (not very)


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*I Don't Know*

I don't know where the heck to start on the last influx of posts--

I am heartened to see some valid debate being thrown about. I am disheartened to see relationships degenerate.

I usually try to assume the peace maker mode even though no one ever has asked me to don this mantle.

I am, in general, your typical commie, *** loving, stand up for the underdog type guy. I am sure of who and what I am no matter what anyone, anywhere thinks or says to me or about me.

Writing on an emotional level does not further debate or a solution. You all are aware of the current financial catstrophe about to take place. If our financial markets fall apart, the current topic will pale into an ibid (footnote)!

Our government fully supported the financial service industry's taking us all to the cleaners. The ones who truly profited have already moved their assets off shore. You can bet your a-- on that.

With that being said--anyone who thinks our federal government gives two sh_ts about illegal immigration, should re-think that position. Of course the laws are on the books. The laws are on the books to prevent the blatant and arrogant disregard of our fiduciary responsibilities--look up salutary neglect.

I fully support Brian. I fully support NEPS. I fully support valid input and output. I do not support innunedo. I dislike flip comments meant to inflame and promote hostility.

I fully support the right of every legitimate member here to express useful and valid comments and opinion. 

It is disgraceful to stoop and pander. Yeah-yeah-yeah--I can hear it now--who appointed you moderator-sheriff and so forth. 

This debate is sorely needed. It needs to be discussed. Daarch--you were right--a little too hasty on the praise for restraint and common sense.

Is it any wonder why things don't get done? If this thread is any indication of why our Congress can't work together any more, this thread makes it perfectly obvious.

People are people. It seems emotions dictate policy where good thinking and rational thought should prevail.

BTW-should you think I sit on the fence, please read ALL my comments from the beginning tough guys.

JTP


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

so when will you be solving the worlds problems?


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> I am, in general, your typical commie, *** loving...


Emotionally or just physically?


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

Might as well keep your so called gov. outta the pitcure completly, after they get your $ you dont even exist. for those that still cry,,,Ill write my gov, yea ok,, why do you not hold your gov to their track record???? you hold others to theirs that are less important in your walk? look at your gov, well first try and understand it. back when they were passin out blankets as a "gift" a "sign of their intentions", (only to willfully spread small pox, ect, ect, look back to the root of the tree, it was wrong from the start. do you really belive in your gov doing anything but whats good for it,(the machine) not you. even when it looks like its doing somthing good for the people, theres a catch. a hidden purpose. it is what it is! you can spend the rest a your life callin/writin, and you might feel real american bout your ways, like your special or somthing, your only blind to your surroundins. as for me and mine. we live for our ways, our ways are very simple compaired to some of you more spellin fetish folks, I only want what I have brought about through the creators hand, I am against allotta things that you damesticated folk seem to be ok with, like ****'s, killin babies,the gov. givin folks dangerous meds for like epilepy and such, when there are natural med's right here that give no side affects, but your gov. wont pass the ok. for it even though proof is there! they dont care bout you, your a # thats it. so go ahead and be all patreotic, be the blind dumb one. Ill work for myself and stay out in woods where all your gov. crap dosent exisit. with the exeption of pay the taxes on my land, but as for their b.s I aint even interested, when they do try and take the 2nd Amd. away, us folks round here be ready to make that patreotic call. a war call! not tryin to waste my time talkin to some dumb blonde on the phone that gets paid for lip service under the desk! keep your gov. as for all the illegals. like I said, stop your cryin you sound like little bit**'* GET USE TO IT. aint a damn thing you can do, exept make more enimeies than you all ready got from your bigot mouths. listen to you,,, waaaaaa, these people are in MY country!waaaaaaaaa, shut up already, lets talk bout shotguns or somthin, oh,, thats right this is a paintin forum...well then how bout that recall on the trycindean base?? well I gotta go out back and pump some steel into anything that moves! why?? cause I can!! mabey if they let folks do that out there in **** land we'd be at least normal in that sense! Ill make words with you boatpeople later, theres a spotted deer out back, gotta make a very large hole in.


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

crow said:


> Might as well keep your so called gov. outta the pitcure completly, after they get your $ you dont even exist. for those that still cry,,,Ill write my gov, yea ok,, why do you not hold your gov to their track record???? you hold others to theirs that are less important in your walk? look at your gov, well first try and understand it. back when they were passin out blankets as a "gift" a "sign of their intentions", (only to willfully spread small pox, ect, ect, look back to the root of the tree, it was wrong from the start. do you really belive in your gov doing anything but whats good for it,(the machine) not you. even when it looks like its doing somthing good for the people, theres a catch. a hidden purpose. it is what it is! you can spend the rest a your life callin/writin, and you might feel real american bout your ways, like your special or somthing, your only blind to your surroundins. as for me and mine. we live for our ways, our ways are very simple compaired to some of you more spellin fetish folks, I only want what I have brought about through the creators hand, I am against allotta things that you damesticated folk seem to be ok with, like ****'s, killin babies,the gov. givin folks dangerous meds for like epilepy and such, when there are natural med's right here that give no side affects, but your gov. wont pass the ok. for it even though proof is there! they dont care bout you, your a # thats it. so go ahead and be all patreotic, be the blind dumb one. Ill work for myself and stay out in woods where all your gov. crap dosent exisit. with the exeption of pay the taxes on my land, but as for their b.s I aint even interested, when they do try and take the 2nd Amd. away, us folks round here be ready to make that patreotic call. a war call! not tryin to waste my time talkin to some dumb blonde on the phone that gets paid for lip service under the desk! keep your gov. as for all the illegals. like I said, stop your cryin you sound like little bit**'* GET USE TO IT. aint a damn thing you can do, exept make more enimeies than you all ready got from your bigot mouths. listen to you,,, waaaaaa, these people are in MY country!waaaaaaaaa, shut up already, lets talk bout shotguns or somthin, oh,, thats right this is a paintin forum...well then how bout that recall on the trycindean base?? well I gotta go out back and pump some steel into anything that moves! why?? cause I can!! mabey if they let folks do that out there in **** land we'd be at least normal in that sense! Ill make words with you boatpeople later, theres a spotted deer out back, gotta make a very large hole in.


( I so hate to go there but....) 

 SO...... let me get this straight. You are a illiterate, uneducated, self serving bigot who only cares about himself? 

:blink:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

he fits right in.


----------



## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

Crow
I wish you wouldn't hold back. Please tell us how you feel. You are among friends here.

All kidding aside. I like that you are not afraid say where you stand.:thumbup:


----------



## rocco92 (Aug 10, 2007)

Send the illegals to war in Iraq. Let them do a tour over there, give our native boys a rest. They love this country so much, let them fight for it. If they serve honorably and survive, consider amnesty.


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

your right biker, I only made it through the 6th grade, when sent to 7th I got into a world unknown to your kind. Ive had (what I look back on now and call) "serious issues" that seemed to take all my thoughts at the time, so school was just a feedin ground for me, they made me leave never to return. with charges. my first arrest/run'in with the law was when I was 7, I had pulled steel on a new kid in my area. they been tryin to cage me since. I have murdered things since I was old enough to walk. my mother was concerned.. my Grandfather "muskogee" and my Grandmother "Blackfoot" told my mother I had the Spirit of the wounded ones. and life went on. My mind aint always right. this is true, you are truly smarter than me. or are you? I would rather have the knowledge that was put into me by my Grandparents over your high school/ collage crap any day. there may be a day when my knowlegde will be a rare but much needed thing. and you'll be book smart, but no one will care. and Daren, you really dont wanna know whats in the crows mind. your just amused by the raw way I make words. My Grandfather told me a great story since I was little, He said Hut'key came from across the great waters(they knew the earth was round way before Hut'key) He would of died, but the humans help them, and for the help they recieved poison. sickness, and much hatered. as winters past Hut'key wanted everything he saw. they killed, lied, robbed, raped, when he had many things and much land, he only then relized that he was too lazy and had a deep lack of understandin this new place. so he went back over the great waters and robbed the humans on the other side and brought them back to make up for his lack of understandin. and his ways. when all was over he stood among the earth and cryed why are all these people in my country!!! and it never came to his mind or his seeds mind that they have created their own prison. and the snake started to bite itself that very day. his seed will never stop takin. and the earth (our Mother) will bow down and die from his ways. it would of been a good thing for the shadow to pass over hut'key. it took my Grandfather bout half hour to tell this story and it makes more sense as time goes by. I am what you might call a hermit? I only leave the woods to work, get supplys, nothin else. I have nobody that comes down my trail. no one. and I like it that way. the less human contact the better. this site is my contact point. so get use to the illliterate, unedgicated, man that refuses to adapt to your ways. but will always call you his brother. (because the Creator said to.)


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

wish a tree would fall on that cable wire


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

JTP said:


> Illegal Aliens--Hmm--let me see.
> 
> They work cheaply-they work at things many self righteous legals wouldn't touch with a sherlock 8-12 footer-they bring lunch for themselves, they don't complain-they pick fruits and vegetables no one else will harvest-they live in substandard housing-they struggle with health care like many others-- That's just for starters
> 
> ...


Eliminate the U.S. parasites on Welfare and the farms all over America would have U.S. Citizens working them. Who picked the fruit and vegtables before the "Welfare State" Americans did! Why pick fruit when you can sit on your arse and get paid, have a bunch of babies and get paid even more.

Remember guys, Work Hard, millions on Welfare depend on you!!!:blink:


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

"Bury my heart at Wounded Knee"
:yes:


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> so when will you be solving the worlds problems?


 relating to I don't know post

JTP partial quote: Quote:
I am, in general, your typical commie, *** loving... 
Bender asked of JTP: Emotionally or just physically? 

NEPS.US said of Crow 
wish a tree would fall on that cable wire

*johnthepainter*--bait thrower supreme--great ruckus you started here

*Bender*--guess you like the liberal media: take it out of context

*NEPS*--Crow is da man! Any hermit is a friend of mind.

JTP


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Darn good stuff Da Arch.


"Wow, Native Americans had Laws on the books for immigration issues, they had courts, lawyers and such to keep "Illegals out", i learn something new everyday. Your ancestors wre not Illegal Aliens, no laws existed in the new world to make them Illegal, Da Arch, I bet you were being sarcastic, right?


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> pedro stopped by today. he came with another mexican also looking for work, they are both experienced painters. they asked whether they should bring any tools,,,i said no, just wear whites.
> 
> they are both legal, and had ssn#'s.


SS# doesn't prove anything. My ex brother in law had his identity stolen by a illegal immigrant from Costa Rica.


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Dare I join?
> 
> Here's my opinion - There are illegals in the country who work hard, want to learn, and will produce very good quality work when guided. There are also illegals who can't match the quality of your work and aren't as fast as you. Hmmm..... similar to legals isn't it? Some people won't provide as high of quality as you and your business will, others will blow you out of the water. This topic really isn't a matter of whether or not illegals work hard or are good at what they do. Some are, some aren't. And trust me, I have seen illegals produce top quality work without the macho attitude and egos that many legal painters love to stroll around with.
> 
> ...


Just fine the snot out of companies that take advantage of illegals by paying them less and most illegals will go home on their own, No Work!
No need to deport or arrest anyone! This will only work if they are not on welfare!


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

crow said:


> He said Hut'key came from across the great waters(they knew the earth was round way before Hut'key) He would of died, but the humans help them, and for the help they recieved poison. sickness, and much hatered. as winters past Hut'key wanted everything he saw. they killed, lied, robbed, raped, when he had many things and much land, he only then relized that he was too lazy and had a deep lack of understandin this new place.


Manifest destiny. This was going to happen regardless of what race did it.


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> wish a tree would fall on that cable wire


Better yet, Pull the Steel on himself, poor victim, cry me a river!


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

patriotpainter said:


> SS# doesn't prove anything. My ex brother in law had his identity stolen by a illegal immigrant from Costa Rica.


 
well it had 9 numbers, im not the federal govt.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> wish a tree would fall on that cable wire


That's funny!

Good job crow. Keep on writing. interesting stuff.


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

patriotpainter said:


> Better yet, Pull the Steel on himself, poor victim, cry me a river!


May the tears of all the wounded and murdered Spirits fall opon you and your seed. and steel stay far from your heart. for you are not worthy of a mans death. drowndin in a swollen creek will be more your speed.(not smart enough to stand up!)


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

crow said:


> May the tears of all the wounded and murdered Spirits fall opon you and your seed. and steel stay far from your heart. for you are not worthy of a mans death. drowndin in a swollen creek will be more your speed.(not smart enough to stand up!)


I've been waiting on crow to put a hex on someone.:notworthy::laughing::laughing:


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I figured it out! Crow is really Sev pretending to be dumb.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

Brian: _As I said, it was once illegal to harbor slaves. By your argument, those who harbored slaves should have been thrown in jail as they were breaking the law. That's not dancing around with words, that is taking your words seriously._

_Bikerboy:__They were, but what does that have to do with the here and now?_

_Brian: I was responding to a claim that implied that because something is illegal, the law making it illegal is justified and proper. I disagree with that premise. If it is wrong in a single instance, it is wrong in principle._

Brian: _Your position is that what is illegal is wrong. I disagree, and my slavery example demonstrates why. _

_Bikerboy:__You seem to base this on the fact that you think that slavery was wrong, so being here illegally is right? Or that they should not be jailed because you arbitrarily think the law should be ignored. (It is the law)_


_Brian: The fact that something is illegal does not mean that it should be illegal. My position is hardly arbitrary, as the links I posted should have clearly demonstrated._

Brian: _Every individual has a moral right to pursue his values without intervention from others, so long as he respects the mutual rights of other individuals. He has no right to force others to provide for his sustenance or well-being, just as other have no right to force him to provide for theirs. At the same time, nobody has a right to prevent others from pursuring their well-being. _

_Bikerboy:__So you belive no damage is being done to legal citizens? No jobs lost to illegals? Depressed wages? Diversion of benefits? (health, education, law enforcement?)_


_Brian: Apparently I didn’t make myself clear. If someone wants to come here to make a better life for himself, I have no problem with that. If he wants to mooch and take advantage of free education, health care, etc. he should stay where he is. But I don’t think anyone should get free education or health care._

_You are focusing on the wrong issue. It isn’t the illegals who are breaking the system, it is the system. A basic law of economics is that when the price of something is held artificially low, the demand increases. It you offer anything for free, the demand for it will increase. Do away with the entitlements and your argument goes away._

Brian: _As George Z points out, there are always scapegoats. If you study American history, you would see that in previous decades it was the Chinese, the Irish, the Italians, the Polish, etc. When a wave of immigrants reach our shores, those immigrants invariably become the cause of every problem, real or imagined. It wasn't true before, and it isn't true now._

_Bikerboy:__There is a big difference, Ellis Island comes to mind, people came legally and wanted to become "Americans". I would rather punish those who "hire "them as George mentions. Maybe I missed it, but I have yet to read a post that "blames" any one for all the countries ills._

_Brian: So if two individuals voluntarily agree to do business they should be punished and thrown in jail?_

Brian: _To consider a human being illegal absolutely disgusts me. How can a human being be illegal? _

_Bikerboy:__This point is childish, but I'll grant you that the name should more accurately fit the situation. How about "Criminal Alien"? After all, a crime was commited, and they are "alien" to this nation._


_Brian: Calling my position childish is not a compelling argument. _

Brian: _The fact is, the US immigration policies are completely arbitrary. They are based on quotas per nation, and if that isn't a racist policy I do not know what is._

_Bikerboy:__How is that racist, if only country of orgin is used? You act as if any one country "only" has white, black, asian or whatever. You know that is not true. The majority of countries are multi-racial. And color is not used as a determining factor. _


_Brian: I mean racist in the sense that it treats all citizens of a particular country as the same, regardless of any individual merits, training, skills, etc. It does not treat individuals as individuals. Perhaps a better word would be collectivist, but the essential meaning is the same in this context._

Brian: _If someone wishes to come to America to make a better life for himself and his family, he has every right to do so. If he wishes to come here to mooch off the system, he can stay where he is and starve. Again, nobody has a right to force others to provide for his sustenance._

_Bikerboy:__Problem with that is the Constitution states the goverment is to protect its citizens from all threats foreign and domestic. The case can and has been made that uncontrolled immigration is a threat. I'll use one small example. People coming here legally have to be vaccinated and prove they have no infectious diseases. Whereas you can sneak across the border and spread whatever you want, and get free medical care for it at any public hospital regaurdlee of your ability to pay._


_Brian: I do not advocate just allowing anyone to traipse into the country. Some minimal screening is rational and necessary. Those with infectious diseases or who have expressed hostility to America—such as the President of Iran-- should be banned._

Brian: _The arguments against illegals are based on false premises. A primary argument is that they burden our health and education systems. Most people think it is fine if "natives" mooch off the system, but as soon as some Mexican does so its wrong. The problem isn't the nationality of the parasite, the problem is condoning parasitism._

_Bikerboy:__See above. First of all education is a right. Plus nobody is neccessarily condoning "mooching" off the system. Your argument here is lame. You are using bad behavior (native mooching) to justify "Criminal Aliens" mooching off the system. If 50% of all citizens were child molestors would you use that to justify foreign child molestors?_


_Brian: Education is not a right. Anything that requires the money and effort of others is not a right. How is such a right practiced, if not by forcing others to provide it? _


Brian: _A second argument is that illegals drive down wages. In a free market, individuals are free to exchange goods and services at mutually agreed terms. So long as no party is compelled to act against his choice, the government has no business interfering._

_Bikerboy:__Free markets also assume that everyone is playing on a level playing field, that everyone has the same rules to follow._


_Brian: I agree here. And the only way to have a level playing field is to banish the use of force in individual relations. No man has a right to force others to provide for his well being._

Brian: _Historically, in free economies wages typically remain relatively stagnant. However, the standard of living rises as the cost of goods and services decreases. This does not mean that the wages for a particular individual remains stagnant, only for a particular skill level. As an economy grows, the skills demanded increase. Those who improve their skills see their wages increase. Those who don't see them stay the same or even decrease._

_Economically the arguments against illegals are ridiculous. Morally the arguments are hideous._

_Bikerboy:__It's been said before, but I'll repeat it. Now more than ever state and federal goverments revenues are stagnant. Assuming they don't raise your taxes, there is a finite supply of resources (your tax dollars). For every Criminal Alien child who is educated, a dollars less goes to a legal citizen's child. For every dollar that goes to a Criminal Alien for health care, one less goes to your families health care, and on and on._
_It's a pie and there is only so many slices for our own. _
_If you want to give some of your pie to Criminals, it is your right. If I choose not to, because I care about my family, does that make me a racist? Hater? Morally wrong? _
_You say these arguments are morally wrong and ridiculous. I say yours deify logic._
_(toe-may-toe, tah-mah-toe)_

_Brian: I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat it. No man has a right to force others to provide for his well being. This includes using the government as his proxy. _

_The material goods that we require for life are not provided automatically. They require effort, and that effort is directed by our minds. Each man has a moral right to pursue his values without interference from others, so long as he respects their mutual right to do so. When he uses force against others to sustain his life, he compels others to act against their judgment and against their values._

_To be clear, I am opposed to forcing anyone to provide education, health care, food, or anything else to another person. If someone chooses to do so voluntarily, that is their right. But to compel others to do so is immoral._

_If you think this argument is illogical, then I suggest you study Aristotle more carefully. Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. Identify the contractions, that is, where I claim that A is true and not true at the same time._

_Brian Phillips_


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

some people have a ton of free time


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

crow said:


> May the tears of all the wounded and murdered Spirits fall opon you and your seed. and steel stay far from your heart. for you are not worthy of a mans death. drowndin in a swollen creek will be more your speed.(not smart enough to stand up!)


Me and Me Seeds aint Skeered. "Drowndin" now that's really funndin.


----------



## dhp (Sep 18, 2008)

Paul_R said:


> Bottom line is those immigrants that arrive and stay in our country illegally are law breakers. Regardless of the country they come from. Many immigrants come to the USA to find a better life and pursue citizenship in an honorable manner. Many do not. In Chicago, the police are not allowed to ask law breakers if they are in country legally or not, it is a refuge city. Maybe the machine is simply looking for a few more votes? Should we also jail and support lawbreakers, or should we send them back to their home ? Happy painting, Paul.


 

comments like this are silly, you broke the law today on the way to your job....(97% of americans speed atleast once ina ten mile drive)....

throw your butt in jain, you broke the law 


i live where 99% of the labor force in illegal. hell its hard to find someone who isnt, who can paint, who doesnt think they are a $45 per hour guy!!!

its not a cut and dry issue, hell im republican and I cant figure out which way it should go....


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> some people have a ton of free time


Brian likes to type, must be all out of paint work, maybe he could live 20 to a house, all share 2 vehicles (both unregistered and uninsured), collect welfare, food stamps, medicaid and slash his prices to get work. No need for your own SS# just buy or steal one.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

patriotpainter said:


> Brian likes to type, must be all out of paint work, maybe he could live 20 to a house, all share 2 vehicles (both unregistered and uninsured), collect welfare, food stamps, medicaid and slash his prices to get work. No need for your own SS# just buy or steal one.


You made a remarkable argument for your point of view patriot. Very logical, thought provoking, and rational. We are all doomed to to re-live the same mistakes of the past. Patriot's well turned comments prove it.

JTP


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

While I'm at it Patriot--Let's stereotype all the illegal aliens and send them to concentration camps b/c all of them live the same damn way. Better yet--just shoot'em.

JTP


----------



## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

JTP said:


> While I'm at it Patriot--Let's stereotype all the illegal aliens and send them to concentration camps b/c all of them live the same damn way. Better yet--just shoot'em.
> 
> JTP


You were doing so good yesterday, what happened? Did you have a bad day and run into Crow in the backwoods of Iowa. That would be a funndin good timedin. Chill out, know it all!!


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

patriotpainter said:


> You were doing so good yesterday, what happened? Did you have a bad day and run into Crow in the backwoods of Iowa. That would be a funndin good timedin. Chill out, know it all!!


 
OK--Pat.


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

dhp, throw my but in jain? Dis you means jail? I broke the law? Haw Haw.

Do you live in California?


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Paul--I don't live in CA--too many illegal aliens there.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brian: The arguments against illegals are based on false premises. A primary argument is that they burden our health and education systems. Most people think it is fine if "natives" mooch off the system, but as soon as some Mexican does so its wrong. The problem isn't the nationality of the parasite, the problem is condoning parasitism.

Bikerboy:See above. First of all education is a right. Plus nobody is neccessarily condoning "mooching" off the system. Your argument here is lame. You are using bad behavior (native mooching) to justify "Criminal Aliens" mooching off the system. If 50% of all citizens were child molestors would you use that to justify foreign child molestors?


Brian: Education is not a right. Anything that requires the money and effort of others is not a right. How is such a right practiced, if not by forcing others to provide it? 

If I'm paying taxes that eventually end up in my school district, isn't that my right to education? 

The system is designed to handle a percentage of native, and alien moochers, not an infinite number of immigrants who choose not to follow the rules, but rather cut in front of the line to reap the benefits of the education I'm paying for.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Brian said:


> _Brian: So if two individuals voluntarily agree to do business they should be punished and thrown in jail?_
> _Brian Phillips_


Brian

I know it was a rhetorical question, but it did make me think. Out of your whole train of thought, this was the part that stuck out with me. 

I think obviously it depends on the whether the business the two individuals agree to conduct is legal. Jail seems so draconian these days, and not the most effective punishment. Perhaps they ought to be not allowed to do business illegally. By some peoples' definition, the use of immigrants who do not participate in our tax system would be considered illegal...even though I am sure that the two individuals mutually agreed to this arrangement.

This probably sticks out with me because I have been doing some hiring recently. Alot over the past year. I am amazed at the number of guys that come to an interview and tell me that their boss has been paying them cash for 2 years. This I consider to be illegal.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

*Study: Illegal immigrant education costs states millions*

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2003/08/18/daily43.html


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Sorry JTP I did the wrong initials, I meant dhp.

By the way can somebody give us a link to the old Phil Collins hit "It's no fun bein an illeagal aleun"?:thumbup:

Happy painting, Paul.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Sorry JTP I did the wrong initials, I meant dhp.
> 
> By the way can somebody give us a link to the old Phil Collins hit "It's no fun bein an illeagal aleun"?:thumbup:
> 
> Happy painting, Paul.


No problem Paul. I was just having some old man fun posting some useless pictures.

JTP


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

*The bottom line is that these people need to become Americans or get the phuck out. What else is there to argue?????? If you don't agree, then you must be retarded. *


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)




----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Sorry JTP I did the wrong initials, I meant dhp.
> 
> By the way can somebody give us a link to the old Phil Collins hit "It's no fun bein an illeagal aleun"?:thumbup:
> 
> Happy painting, Paul.


Genesis song, not PC solo close enough tho..

file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_ADM~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/Illegal Alien.url


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)




----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Timhag where the heck is your political correctness? That guy called the undocumented immigrants "*******"?:no:

Paul


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Paul_R said:


> Timhag where the heck is your political correctness? That guy called the undocumented immigrants "*******"?:no:
> 
> Paul


You are right Mr.Paul but ya have to admit, what he did was great.:thumbup:


----------



## Paul_R (Apr 19, 2007)

Do you think that it was a put on? Were the Illegals in on the deal or not? Excuse my ignorance , but is this really how things transpire in the realm of the illegals? So much stuff is put up on u tube, that I wonder how much is real. If it is real why can't INS just go out and round them up? Paul


----------



## dhp (Sep 18, 2008)

Paul_R said:


> dhp, throw my but in jain? Dis you means jail? I broke the law? Haw Haw.
> 
> Do you live in California?


no....i dont...

this subject may be too hot of a topic for me...im out of this one


----------



## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

so much for a constructive discussion.


----------



## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Brian
> 
> I know it was a rhetorical question, but it did make me think. Out of your whole train of thought, this was the part that stuck out with me.
> 
> ...


Scott,

The point I have been trying to make since my first post in this thread is that few people seem to question the legitimacy of our immigration laws. Simply because something is illegal does not mean that it should be illegal. I've used harboring slaves as an example, but there are many, many other such laws. 

Virtually everyone says that they aren't opposed to immigration, just illegal immigration. My point is that our immigration laws are immoral and make it extremely difficult (and in many cases impossible) to immigrate legally. 

I am not advocating breaking the law. The consequences can be rather nasty. I am advocating reforming the law, and that begins by identifying what is moral and proper.

The real issue is not immigration, but something much more fundamental. The real issue was stated by Jefferson-- the right of each individual to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Governments are created to protect these rights. But when government becomes a violator of those rights, rather than their protector, reform is required.

Brian Phillips


----------



## boman47k (May 10, 2008)

That dude ( Supreme Racist) is cruising for a bruising!


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the mexican painter i hired did such a good job, i fired the other white guy i had working for me.

he moves really fast, and is polite.

he is all legit.

he paints, does drywall, sets tile, and landscapes.

i had him trim my trees before we headed out this morning, and they look great.


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> the mexican painter i hired did such a good job, i fired the other white guy i had working for me.
> 
> he moves really fast, and is polite.
> 
> ...


Okay johnthemexicanslavedriver. :thumbsup:


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

johnthepainter said:


> the mexican painter i hired did such a good job, i fired the other white guy i had working for me.
> 
> he moves really fast, and is polite.
> 
> ...


John,

You're too funny. I hear they cook well and clean out septic systems. Obviously you have a lot more skills to tap into. Are you married? Well, when you go on those long weekends to Vegas and the wife wants you back ...... well just leave Carlos home and your wife will not ask you back so soon :thumbsup:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i am looking for a rosetta stone spanish course, but a condensed version for painters.

the only words/phrases i need are exterior painting related

possibly Spanish for dummies?

i used to think that mexicans should be forced to learn english, but now i realize its much easier for me to learn some spanish, than for millions of them to learn english.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

John,

all you need to do is compliment their family and they'll do ANYthing for you, here's a little phrase that says his mother is number one:

"tu madre es una buena puta"


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I think I've been rubbing off on DA


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

daArch said:


> John,
> 
> all you need to do is compliment their family and they'll do ANYthing for you, here's a little phrase that says his mother is number one:
> 
> "tu madre es una buena puta"


Tell him his mother is a pendajo then come back and give us a full report of the can of whoopass he puts on you.:yes:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

The white guy i fired this morning said he didnt want to powerwash, its too hard.

No problemo.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

We've hit bottom.


----------



## crow (Jan 29, 2008)

There is no bottom to this group, thats why I like it here. bout the time ya think you might feel one,, sombody throws in some crazy **** and just makes it deeper!


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I think I've been rubbing off on DA


Rubbing OFF ON is acceptable, Rubbing AGAINST or GETTING OFF ON is gonna get you a one way ride to P-Town.

Not that there's anything wrong with that







- just not my side of the plate


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

pittsburgh???


----------



## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> pittsburgh???


----------



## blen (Aug 30, 2011)

*Almost impossible to work legally in California.*

Prices are so low here in L.A. area there is no way to bid a job and have workers compensation, and payroll deductions, follow EPA lead rules. If your bidding more than $120.00 to $200.00 you are not going to be working much. I have been doing this since 1986 and this is my worst year ever, and probable one of the last to be painting. I only continue because I haven't come up with a new business idea yet. I realize California is a little tougher do to high concentrations of "guest workers", but this industry is never coming back to $400.00 - $500.00 man days, that was a lot to do with the real estate frenzy. People taking out loans on there homes and not caring about paying high prices because ther 1200 square foot home built in the 1950's was worth over $500,000 and rising. Now a pack of south americans swarming a job site is O.K. with homeowners. There are to many people willing to do this work for a little quick money. Show me a happy, successful painter, and I'll show you a man who's wife has a real job. As for some of you guys making excuses for illegal peasant labor , I always look at what part of the country your in , we have more illegals in front of one paint store than some of you have in your little towns. There coming to a town near you soon. Good luck .


----------



## Steve Burnett (May 28, 2012)

blen said:


> Prices are so low here in L.A. area there is no way to bid a job and have workers compensation, and payroll deductions, follow EPA lead rules. If your bidding more than $120.00 to $200.00 you are not going to be working much. I have been doing this since 1986 and this is my worst year ever, and probable one of the last to be painting. I only continue because I haven't come up with a new business idea yet. I realize California is a little tougher do to high concentrations of "guest workers", but this industry is never coming back to $400.00 - $500.00 man days, that was a lot to do with the real estate frenzy. People taking out loans on there homes and not caring about paying high prices because ther 1200 square foot home built in the 1950's was worth over $500,000 and rising. Now a pack of south americans swarming a job site is O.K. with homeowners. There are to many people willing to do this work for a little quick money. Show me a happy, successful painter, and I'll show you a man who's wife has a real job. As for some of you guys making excuses for illegal peasant labor , I always look at what part of the country your in , we have more illegals in front of one paint store than some of you have in your little towns. There coming to a town near you soon. Good luck .


I'm sorry to hear you are struggling. I'm just curious how Josh's company A.Albright Painting, also in LA, is doing so well? http://www.abpainting.com


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

4 year old thread:blink:


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

chrisn said:


> 4 year old thread:blink:


What? But Obama wasn't even the prez then. Thought he was responsible for the illegals problem. Next your gonna tell me Bush started the recession.


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Necro thread


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Dudes first post too, lolll


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

so hilarious


----------



## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

This is actually a really good thread. Im not going to take the time to read through it though.

Illegal immigration would be alot less, if we just shot them before they crossed the border. Better yet, they dont have documentation or anything they work for free..ball and chain doing road work. Kill two birds with one stone. Eliminate lazy state jobs, no need for 4 people to stand around for safety either. One gets hit by a car, theres 3 more to take his place.


----------



## Cut Throat Painting (Jun 19, 2012)

Leave my help alone!!!


----------



## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

crow said:


> every human on this rock wants to be here


:no: I don't... :no: Necro isn't it?

I realized there's a better place... Come to Canada!!! :jester:


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Because the PZ was not in existence then, a thread like this survived here, but since the PZ is now the place to have these discussions and because this thread is so necro it will be closed.

If anyone wants to pick up the standard and wave it furiously, please do so in the PZ


----------

