# Old Plaster Wall problem



## derwood (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi, I have a job in a house with plaster walls on wood lathe. The house is about 100 years old. The wall is currently painted with a latex that is about 6 years old--the paint is failing in many areas--the loose bits scrape off easily, and then as i work the margins, the seemingly stable paint also comes off--not quite as easily, but easily enough to make me feel it is not adhered well--so the areas I am working just get bigger and bigger. I think the problem is that a long time ago the wall was painted, but not primed properly--there are 2 layers of such old paint--i'd estimate these layers are over 50 years old--once exposed, those layers are clearly not stable--e.g., a bit dusty/crumbly. So my question: what is the best way to handle this? Are there any products to stabilize the current paint--e.g., if i scraped off the loosest paint, is there a product to prime/seal/strenghten--and then I could skim coat? Should I not prime before skim coat, if that is the way I go? Or, is stripping all the paint to the plaster a better option--I have never done this, and thus this question: what is the best way to strip paint off plaster?

thanks for the assist, i've learned alot here


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

First, you're likely dealing with lead paint. There are a lot of precautionary steps to take before you start scraping anything. 

If all the paint is coming off, knock off as much as you can.

From there, you have two options, in my opinion. Prime it, skim it, then prime it again, then paint. Or, basecoat plaster then either skim it tight with jc, or veneer coat it. If you don't know how to trowel, a plasterer can easily do this for you in less than a day. You'll wind up with walls as smooth as glass and due to the basecoat, they'll also be solid as cement once again.

Horsehair plaster is never easy, but its almost always lead. If not in the paint, then in the varnished trim or the plaster itself. 

Good luck.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I agree, if 50 year old paint (and most likely older) you are dealing with lead.

Do you know about the EPA RRP rules that speak to containment of lead when working for compensation for others?

If not, I sincerely advise that you stop and become educated. If it were a little area, then I would not be so adamant, but it sounds like you have a large area and subjecting your customers to lead dust (and yourself) could prove hazardous and costly (large fines)


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> I agree, if 50 year old paint (and most likely older) you are dealing with lead.
> 
> Do you know about the EPA RRP rules that speak to containment of lead when working for compensation for others?
> 
> If not, I sincerely advise that you stop and become educated. If it were a little area, then I would not be so adamant, but it sounds like you have a large area and subjecting your customers to lead dust (and yourself) could prove hazardous and costly (large fines)


I find it funny that just because our government says something is unsafe, people all of the sudden start believing it
Now I'm not saying they dont get it right some of the time but most of the time they get it wrong ie. mold and lead. They got it right with asbestos 
To answer your question I would scrap the hell out of it until you get to a solid surface, apply coverstain then skim....if you want to take the extra step, due to a lead concern and reduce the dust due to airbourne particals, you can use a tank sprayer to wet the area to be scraped.....wet it down often


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

wills fresh coat said:


> I find it funny that just because our government says something is unsafe, people all of the sudden start believing it


It doesn't matter what we "believe", Will. Fines from the government are a (remote) possibility.

What I personally am more "afraid" of is/would be a civil lawsuit.

If someone in that/any house I work on tests positive for lead...it could cost me everything I own.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> It doesn't matter what we "believe", Will. Fines from the government are a (remote) possibility.
> 
> What I personally am more "afraid" of is/would be a civil lawsuit.
> 
> If someone in that/any house I work on tests positive for lead...it could cost me everything I own.


True Steve, I guess we gotta put on a "dog and pony show", just to cover our ass


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I will attest to the fact that mold is overhyped but I'm not so sure about lead. There's mold in every breath you take only extreme levels COULD cause symptoms usually in those sensitive to respiratory problems. Lead is bad in any levels and if I understand correctly (not certified) doesn't decay in your system.

I've done the dog and pony show for mold with full tyvek, decon chamber and a silly amount of redundant cleaning and half the time worked sans respirator because of the heat. I wouldn't scrape a window I knew had lead without a half face at least.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

wills fresh coat said:


> I find it funny that just because our government says something is unsafe, people all of the sudden start believing it
> Now I'm not saying they dont get it right some of the time but most of the time they get it wrong ie. mold and lead. They got it right with asbestos
> To answer your question I would scrap the hell out of it until you get to a solid surface, apply coverstain then skim....if you want to take the extra step, due to a lead concern and reduce the dust due to airbourne particals, you can use a tank sprayer to wet the area to be scraped.....wet it down often


Wills,

I can personally attest to the dangers of lead. It ain't fun to be poisoned by it.

This is a real and present danger. The EPA may not be managing this correctly, but they are spot on about the dangers that lead dust presents to the public.

We were adults when we got poisoned, I would hate to think about a child with still forming brain and organs being poisoned. 

PLEASE educate yourself and do not think this is over regulation by an out of control gov't bureaucracy 

If you think they got it right w/ asbestos, then you should be willing to be educated that they are GETTING it right with lead. 

Wetting it down will prevent the dust, but what then? let it dry and sweep it up off a bare wood floor distributing into the air and leaving lead dust in the cracks? Or letting it penetrate the carpet and dry to be raise later by vacuums and foot traffic?

Being RRP trained will teach one the correct methods of containment. Are some of the methods over the top? Absolutely. But one has to over train knowing that shortcuts will be taken.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gibberish45 said:


> I will attest to the fact that mold is overhyped but I'm not so sure about lead. There's mold in every breath you take only extreme levels COULD cause symptoms usually in those sensitive to respiratory problems. Lead is bad in any levels and if I understand correctly (not certified) doesn't decay in your system.
> 
> I've done the dog and pony show for mold with full tyvek, decon chamber and a silly amount of redundant cleaning and half the time worked sans respirator because of the heat. I wouldn't scrape a window I knew had lead without a half face at least.


Some molds are OK, some are not. I have not been educated to tell the difference.


And lead itself does leave a body, over time. However, the damage it does on developing bodies does NOT go away. 

I did notice a mood change in my partner when we got poisoned. And I am sure he noticed one in me, although I though I was fine  

I did notice other symptoms like metallic taste, kidney pains, and headaches. After we were tested and found to be with very elevated levels, I bought the supplied air respirator.

Our levels went down and within about six months were within "acceptable" range, which back then was higher than today's standards.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

Don't worry about it. Give an estimate with all your RPP costs included and then they will get someone cheaper or just paint over it themselves.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Csheils said:


> First, you're likely dealing with lead paint. There are a lot of precautionary steps to take before you start scraping anything.





daArch said:


> I agree, if 50 year old paint (and most likely older) you are dealing with lead.
> 
> Do you know about the EPA RRP rules that speak to containment of lead when working for compensation for others?





Steve Richards said:


> What I personally am more "afraid" of is/would be a civil lawsuit.
> 
> If someone in that/any house I work on tests positive for lead...it could cost me everything I own.






daArch said:


> Wills,
> 
> I can personally attest to the dangers of lead. It ain't fun to be poisoned by it.






DanielMDollaPainting said:


> Don't worry about it. Give an estimate with all your RPP costs included and then they will get someone cheaper or just paint over it themselves.


You all just scared the sh1t out of him. He's a one n done.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

So I guess there's no harm in a de-rail.

daArch...WTF were you doing when you got exposed to THAT much lead?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Steve Richards said:


> So I guess there's no harm in a de-rail.
> 
> daArch...WTF were you doing when you got exposed to THAT much lead?



the doc thought we were main lining it.

But seriously, it's not THAT much lead. 

We were just working on an OLD colonial. I think The L'il Sh!t got more than me because he was using a heat gun more than I was when we did the shutters. On rainy days in a garage. 

This was back in the mid 80's and we were at this one house, interior and exterior, and with a barn and out building for many months. I felt we were part of the family . . . . and so did they.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Many/most of us here have probably been poisoned to some degree, at one time or another.

(The effects aren't' typically permanent in adults...as I understand it anyhow)



I'll stop there so you don't have to move this to the lead forum...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> Some molds are OK, some are not. I have not been educated to tell the difference.


Yes you're right and it's the stachybatchoiwhatsit that's the worst, it's nasty black growth and it will make even a healthy man have allergic symptoms. I'm not trying to downplay mold so much as to give OP some perspective that while mold may not permanently damage a healthy person, lead is nothing to be trifled with.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

ProWallGuy said:


> You all just scared the sh1t out of him. He's a one n done.



My bad. 

Anybody have any better ways to deal with horsehair plaster than what I offered? I guess it kind of depends on how dry and beat up the walls are..


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> Wills,
> 
> I can personally attest to the dangers of lead. It ain't fun to be poisoned by it.
> 
> ...


Hey arch, I'm not saying people don't get sick from things.......I'm just sick of the lawyers and the government sticking their nose where it really don't belong.......when I was a kid we were allowed to take PBJS to school, now just because a couple kids got sick or had a rash you can't send a PBJS to school anymore, wtf....when is it going to stop, you can get sick from anything. How many people do you know died from lead, shellfish, peanuts or raw ground beef. How bout radon gas the lawyers made a ton of cash on that one


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

I know of someone who killed their dog by heat stripping lead from their house. The dog was walking around, hanging out while the work was being done and was exposed to the lead through the pads on his paws. Sad story.

I've also been exposed to high amounts of lead and had some health issues as a result.

But I'm still wondering about horsehair plaster repair for surface preparation and application...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

wills fresh coat said:


> Hey arch, I'm not saying people don't get sick from things.......I'm just sick of the lawyers and the government sticking their nose where it really don't belong.......when I was a kid we were allowed to take PBJS to school, now just because a couple kids got sick or had a rash you can't send a PBJS to school anymore, wtf....when is it going to stop, you can get sick from anything. How many people do you know died from lead, shellfish, peanuts or raw ground beef. How bout radon gas the lawyers made a ton of cash on that one



Before you get political, remember we do have a political zone, and the discussion about regulation has (IMO) reached common ground, or at least an understanding.


Rash? Sick? P-nut allergies are SERIOUS shyt. Children have DIED from their p-nut allergies when a class mate has brought a sammich to school. 

I had a customer who said I could not eat my PBJ in the house because her son would react fatally if he even got some oil in him.

What I want to know is where did these allergies come from all of a sudden. Never heard of it when I was young. Kids died from bee stings, but EVERYONE ate p-nuts. 

But I know they are REAL and they are getting more prevalent, like childhood obesity. 

Lead also kills.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> Before you get political, remember we do have a political zone, and the discussion about regulation has (IMO) reached common ground, or at least an understanding.
> 
> 
> Rash? Sick? P-nut allergies are SERIOUS shyt. Children have DIED from their p-nut allergies when a class mate has brought a sammich to school.
> ...


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> Before you get political, remember we do have a political zone, and the discussion about regulation has (IMO) reached common ground, or at least an understanding.
> 
> 
> Rash? Sick? P-nut allergies are SERIOUS shyt. Children have DIED from their p-nut allergies when a class mate has brought a sammich to school.
> ...


Kids die in cars everyday but they don't ban them....saying government don't always make it political arch, we can agree to disagree


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## briancreary (Oct 12, 2010)

*alright*

first-beware of lead. There I go that out of the way.

second- in the past we have used (when the walls are really bad) 1/4" drywall and screws going through washers to attach over the plaster. Then you are essentially wtarting with a "new," wall. Problems with this, 1) you have to hope the customer goes for it and wants to pay for this, 2) you are bringing in the wall 1/4" on each surface so you need to either make the molding look good or remove and reinstall in some cases. I typically remove and reinstall crown, and pictureframe molding knowing that I will have to re-cope for the walls being smaller; I typically leave door frame molding and live with it looking 1/4" smaller. You do not want to get into build-out on door frames. 

Lastly- look into encapsulating paints. Bm makes it for sure.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

> > Lead also kills.
> 
> 
> 
> name one


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


>


Ok, got me there:notworthy:


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

Csheils said:


> My bad.
> 
> Anybody have any better ways to deal with horsehair plaster than what I offered? I guess it kind of depends on how dry and beat up the walls are..


I would probably use BM Alkyd Undercoater & Primer Sealer or Cover Stain.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> But I know they are REAL and they are getting more prevalent, like childhood obesity.


Bill is a weather vane for liberal politics :jester: We're all going to be hearing a lot more about that topic as the years roll on from a lot more places than PT.


Sorry to derail, on topic screwing it up with washers is a great idea if the walls aren't completely fubared.


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## palehorse222 (Oct 22, 2008)

There is a product call Larsen Plaster-weld...(they also have a crete-weld for concrete) We use this all the time in NYC where the plaster is old and nasty..bubbling, frothing, wet, brown, cancerous, or what have you..

plaster weld looks like Pepto-same viscosity as well, but it seals in the nasty, and provides a good bond for new plaster on old. It dries like plastic, and takes a skim coat VERY nicely...thats how plaster guys get glass finish over nastyness

Scrape away as much as you can...if it comes off by 5/1, it's no good. apply plaster weld, dries fairly quickly, appl;y skim (50/50 jc-plaster of paris is nice)
prime (oil doesn't hurt), and paint:thumbsup:


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