# Popcorn



## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www.asbestos.net/asbestos-products/troweled-coatings.html

Found this today. I knew it contained asbestos but didnt know it was against the law to remove it.


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

Wow, I didn't know any popcorn contained asbestos.
Thanks for the info Roadog.
I learned something new today!
Sage


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

knew it, but what they said about it being around on shelves and such still into 78' makes since.. hell bet Joe GC called up a place and they told him they would give him a GREAT deal if he bought it all up and he had it till 79'. My place was built in 78'


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Funny I had heard this a long time ago, and just remembered as you brought it up.I have a friend that removes this stuff all the time. Good thing you have to wet it to remove it.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

Never knew that thanks for the link. Never saw a popcorn ceiling in person though either. Guess it never caught on around here thank god.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Never knew that thanks for the link. Never saw a popcorn ceiling in person though either. Guess it never caught on around here thank god.


I would have thought you would have seen at least one.I just painted one this week. We taped off five rooms and sprayed two coats.5 hours taping/pulling and 1hour spraying.That turned out to be a good day$$$$


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> I would have thought you would have seen at least one.I just painted one this week. We taped off five rooms and sprayed two coats.5 hours taping/pulling and 1hour spraying.That turned out to be a good day$$$$


Nope never & been painting going on 10 years now. Older houses all have smooth (if you want to call them that) ceilings & new houses are mostly stomped.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

*Did You Guys Know???*

Did you guys know? That oil base paints contains solvents. 
Wow! Another new one. 
:jester:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Did you guys know? That oil base paints contains solvents.
> Wow! Another new one.
> :jester:


I never knew that. Could you defy solvent and give me a link breaking the subject and how it affects our trade down a bit?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

JNLP said:


> I never knew that. Could you defy solvent and give me a link breaking the subject and how it affects our trade down a bit?


That's funny you should ask that. Since I just finished the intro. 
Start with this.....

Solvents Introduction 
The vast majority of chemical reactions are performed in solution. The solvent fulfills several functions during a chemical reaction. It solvates the reactans and reagents so that they dissolve. This facilitates collisions between the reactant(s) and reagents that must occur in order to transform the reactant(s) to product(s). The solvent also provides a means of temperature control, either to increase the energy of the colliding particles so that they will react more quickly, or to absorb heat that is generated during an exothermic reaction. The selection of an appropriate solvent is guided by theory and experience. Generally a good solvent should meet the following criteria.
• It should be inert to the reaction conditions. • It should dissolve the reactants and reagents. • It should have an appropriate boiling point. • It should be easily removed at the end of the reaction.

The second criterion invokes the adage "Like dissolves like". Non-polar reactants will dissolve in non-polar solvents. Polar reactants will dissolve in polar solvents. For our purposes there are three measures of the polarity of a solvent:
1. Dipole moment 2. Dielectric constant 3. Miscibility with water

Molecules with large dipole moments and high dielectric constants are considered polar. Those with low dipole moments and small dielectric constants are classified as non-polar. On an operational basis, solvents that are miscible with water are polar, while those that are not are non-polar; remember the saying "Oil and water don't mix".

Chemists have classified solvents into three categories according to their polarity.
1. polar protic 2. dipolar aprotic 3. non-polar.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> *polar protic* 2. dipolar aprotic 3. non-polar.










sooo.... this is a paint you can use in snow?


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

If you use all water based products does that make you insolvent?


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> That's funny you should ask that. Since I just finished the intro.
> Start with this.....


Allow me to break those 3 down for you all... :whistling2:

*Polar Protic Solvents*
Let's start with the meaning of the adjective protic. In the context used here, protic refers to a hydrogen atom attached to an electronegative atom. For our purposes that electronegative atom is almost exclusively oxygen. In other words, polar protic solvents are compounds that can be represented by the general formula ROH. The polarity of the polar protic solvents stems from the bond dipole of the O-H bond. The large difference in electronegativities of the oxygen and the hydrogen atom, combined with the small size of the hydrogen atom, warrant separating molecules that contain an OH group from those polar compounds that do not. Examples of polar protic solvents are water (HOH), methanol (CH3OH), and acetic acid (CH3CO2H).

*Dipolar Aprotic Solvents*
Here the key word is aprotic. In the context used here, aprotic describes a molecule that does not contain an O-H bond. Solvents in this class all contain a bond that has a large bond dipole. Typically this bond is a multiple bond between carbon and either either oxygen or nitrogen. Most dipolar aprotic solvents contain a C-O double bond. Examples are acetone [(CH3)2C=O] and ethyl acetate (CH3CO2CH2CH3).

*Non-Polar Solvents*
Non-polar solvents are compounds that have low dielecrtic constants and are not miscible with water. Examples include benzene (C6H6), carbon tetrachloride (CCl4), and diethyl ether ( CH3CH2OCH2CH3).
All of these solvents are clear, colorless liquids.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Allow me to break those 3 down for you all... :whistling2:


Yes we knew all that silly, but like nEighter said, what about painting in snow?


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

you have too many cold ones... you can do it for free... if you like yellow


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Allow me to break those 3 down for you all... :whistling2:


Wow you are very insightfull 
Let's move on now that we know what solvents are we will answer the snow question later. I think it is important to talk about how solvents interact with solutes

Solvent-Solute Interactions Introduction 
Now that you understand how chemists classify solvents, it's time to consider a similar classification system for the compounds that dissolve in them, i.e. for solutes. At the risk of oversimplifying, we will divide solutes into 3 groups:
1. ionic 2. polar covalent 3. non-polar covalent

We will use the adage "like dissolves like" as our guide to understanding the forces that enable a solute to dissolve in a solvent. Remember that this adage is really a variation on the statement of Coulomb's Law that says "opposite charges attract". The force of attraction depends upon the nature of the solvent and the nature of the solute. We will look at four types of interactions:
• charge-dipole • dipole-dipole • dipole-induced dipole • induced dipole-induced dipole

It is important here to distinguish between intermolecular interactions and the intramolecular interactions that we call covalent bonding. The strengths of covalent sigma bonds range from a low of about 50 kcal/mol to a high of around 125 kcal/mol. The interactive forces described below range from 2-10 kcal/mol. Because they are so much less than typical covalent bonding forces, these interactions are sometimes called secondary bonding interactions.

JNLP may be you could break it down for them.


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> JNLP may be you could break it down for them.


Sure no problem. Got all night of doing nothing with a case of beer. This is all off the top of my head, but should be pretty accurate. Been a while since college.

*Charge-Dipole Interactions*
This is the classic case of an ionic salt such as sodium chloride dissolving in water. Figure 1 presents a picture of the Coulombic interactions between a positively charged sodium ion and 6 water molecules as well as the corresponding interactions between a negatively charged chloride ion and 6 other water molecules. In the case of the sodium ion, the positive charge attracts the negative end of each water molecule's dipole. The negative charge of the chloride ion attracts the positive end of the O-H bond dipole. The straight dashed lines indicate these charge-dipole interactions. Each ion is encased in a shell of water molecules. The shells insulate the ions from each other, allowing the oppositely charged particles to separate. Molecules that have high dielectric constants are good electrical insulators because of their ability to shield the oppositely charged ions in this way.

*Dipole-Dipole Interactions*
As an experimentalist you would have to select an appropriate solvent for this reaction. Considering only solubility for the moment, you would want a solvent in which both the 1-bromobutane and the KOH would dissolve. While KOH is very soluble in water, 1-bromobutane is not. Conversely, while 1-bromobutane will dissolve in hexane, KOH is completely insoluble. What's needed is a solvent that has just the right balance of polar and non-polar character. In fact, both methanol and ethanol are suitable choices.

*Dipole-Induced Dipole Interactions*
Polar protic and dipolar aprotic molecules both have permanent bond dipoles. Non-polar molecules do not, or if they do, their dipole moments are very small. However, when a molecule with a permanent bond dipole comes close to one with no bond dipole, the electric field associated with the permanent dipole can temporarily distort the electron distribution in the non-polar molecule, thereby inducing a temporary bond dipole. Dipole-induced dipole interactions are invoked when a non-polar molecule dissolves in a polar or a dipolar solvent. The assumption is that the solute dissolves because the forces of attraction between the solvent and the solute are stronger than the intermolecular forces holding the non-polar solute molecule together. The interactions between non-polar molecules are the weakest secondary bonding forces we will consider. They are called induced dipole-induced dipole interactions or London forces.

*Induced Dipole-Induced Dipole Interactions*
Imagine that you have a camera with macro lens that allows you to see electrons and a shutter speed so fast it can freeze their motion. If you were to take a series of slides of the electrons in dihydrogen, each slide would be different because each picture would catch the electrons at different positions between the hydrogen nuclei. If you superimposed the slides, the composite image would show that electron distribution between the two nuclei was symmetrical, i.e. that dihydrogen is non-polar. However, each individual slide would reveal the electron distribution between the nuclei was not symmetrical. In other words, there is an instantaneous dipole moment induced by the movement of the electrons. Furthermore, the induced dipole in one molecule influences the electron distribution in other, nearby molecules. This is called an induced dipole-induced dipole interaction. Since these induced dipoles are transient, the intermolecular interactions between them, the London forces, are very weak. Chemists invoke these very weak forces to rationalize the interactions between non-polar molecules.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Looks like someone picked on the wrong guy


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

JNLP said:


> Sure no problem. Got all night of doing nothing with a case of beer. This is all off the top of my head, but should be pretty accurate. Been a while since college..


Huh, way to go. Must have just came right back to you

Well since JNLP summed that up nicely. Let's go on. I want to talk about the snow and all but I think we should go over the boiling points. 

Intermolecular Interactions and Boiling Points Introduction 
Understanding the nature of intermolecular interactions enables us to understand many chemical and physical phenomena. In fact, it was the investigation of such phenomena that led to our understanding of intermolecular interactions in the first place. In the discussion that follows, we will refer to Coulomb's Law several times, so it may be worthwhile to review the mathematical statement of that law:

In terms of intermolecular interactions, the law says that the force of attraction between two molecules increases as the distance between them decreases. It also states that the force of attraction increases as the magnitude of the opposite charges increase.

Since JNLP did so good on the last one I thought we would want to hear his take.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

LMAO
Good Stuff:thumbsup:


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Since JNLP did so good on the last one I thought we would want to hear his take.


NP buddy. My head is starting to hurt from thinking proper so much. As well with my fingers. Lets move forward though...

In the gas phase, the distance between molecules is large in comparison to the size of the molecules. Since the distance is very large, Coulomb's Law tells us that the force of attraction between the molecules is very small. In gases it is essentially zero.

In the liquid state, the separation between molecules is much smaller, and the interactions between them much larger than in the gas phase. The boiling point of a liquid is a measure of the amount of energy required to overcome these intermolecular Coulombic attractions. Let's compare the boiling points of three small molecules, dihydrogen, methane and water. Dihydrogen boils at -259oC, methane boils at -164oC, water at +100oC. Obvioulsy the intermolecular forces holding water molecules together are much stronger than those holding dihydrogen or methane molecules together. If we assume that in the liquid phase the intermolecular distances are about the same for all three molecules, then it must be differences in the values of q1 and q2 that are responsible for the differences in boiling points. It is important to remember that in this situation q1 and q2 are the charges associated with the bond dipoles.

Let's compare water and methane first. Because oxygen is more electronegative than carbon, an O-H bond has a larger bond dipole than a C-H bond. Hence the force of attraction between two water molecules is greater than it is between two methane molecules. Water has the higher boiling point.

Now let's compare methane and dihydrogen. We could invoke the same argument here that we did in comparing methane and water. The C-H bond has a larger bond dipole than the H-H bond. Therefore, methane has the higher boiling point. The real question is why does dihydrogen become a liquid at any temperature? It has no permanent bond dipole, so the values of q1 and q2 should be zero, and the force of attraction between dihydrogen molecules should also be zero. The key word here is permanent. As we have seen, the motion of the electrons in the H-H bond induces transient dipoles. The distortion of the electron distribution in one molecule of dihydrogen induces complementary distortions in other , nearby dihydrogen molecules. It is this fleeting development of charge that we call upon to rationalize the fact that dihydrogen does finally liquefy at -259oC.

Also consider the boiling points of a series of alkanes and a comparable series of alcohols.

- First, it's obvious that alcohols have higher boiling points than alkanes of comparable size. 
- Second, the differences in boiling points become smaller as n increases. (When n = 1, the difference in boiling points is 156oC. When n = 10, the difference is 26 oC.) 
- Third, in both series, the boiling points increase as n increases.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

*What this country needs is a good five-cent cigar.*


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Kidding


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