# Paint failure on garage door



## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

A rare warranty call back. I painted this garage door last year. The green color underneath was the factory color. I used SW Pro Industrial multi surface acrylic. I pressure washed it to prep with simple green. Now this.

Any insights what I did wrong?

I already talked to my SW rep and she's going to replace the product needed to redo it. Which will be a bonding primer and exterior product TBD.









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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Is that door vinyl?

Reading the specs it doesn't say it can be used on Vinyl. It says* painted surfaces* so you probably should have used a bonding primer first on Vinyl.

Pro Industrial Multi-Surface Acrylic is a
waterborne acrylic for interior and exterior
use on marginally prepared metal or
masonry surfaces. 

*Iron & Steel* - Minimum surface preparation is Hand Tool Clean per SSPC-SP2. Remove all oil
and grease from surface per SSPC-SP1. For better performance, use Commercial Blast
Cleaning per SSPC-SP6. Primer recommended for best performance.
Aluminum - Remove all oil, grease, dirt, oxide and other foreign material per SSPC-SP1.


*Galvanizing *- Allow to weather a minimum of six months prior to coating. Solvent Clean per
SSPC-SP1. When weathering is not possible, or the surface has been treated with chromates or
silicates, first Solvent Clean per SSPC-SP1 and apply a test patch. Allow paint to dry at least
one week before testing adhesion. If adhesion is poor, brush blasting per SSPC-SP16 is
necessary to remove these treatments. Rusty galvanizing requires a minimum of Hand Tool
Cleaning per SSPC-SP2, prime the area the same day as cleaned.


*Concrete Block* - Surface should be thoroughly clean and dry. Air, material and surface
temperatures must be at least 55°F (13°C) before filling. Use Heavy Duty Block Filler or Loxon
Block Surfacer. The filler must be thoroughly dry before topcoating.


*Masonry* - All masonry must be free of dirt, oil, grease, loose paint, mortar, masonry dust, etc.
Clean per SSPC-SP13/Nace 6/ ICRI No. 310.2R, CSP 1-3. Poured, troweled, or tilt-up concrete,
plaster, mortar, etc. must be thoroughly cured at least 30 days at 75°F. Form release
compounds and curing membranes must be removed by brush blasting. Brick must be allowed
to weather for one year prior to surface preparation and painting. Prime the area the same day
as cleaned. Weathered masonry and soft or porous cement board must be brush blasted or
power tool cleaned to remove loosely adhering contamination and to get to a hard, firm surface.
Apply one coat Loxon Conditioner, following label recommendations. 

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWPROTECT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=035777254745


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It could be a combination of a few issues. 

It’s possible that a small amount of oxidation was still present after you cleaned the garage.

I’ve only used MSA once, but since it’s a fast drying and thinish coating I’d guess that it’s also fairly brittle. Maybe switching to a different more flexible product would be a good idea.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Could it be the factory finish on the garage door? I'm wondering how they paint garage doors from the factory. 

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Ya, was it metal or vinyl?. Either way I always prime those factory baked on enamels. Never know what they are..Or how they will react.

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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

It's definitely metal. 

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Not a SW rep but interesting to see it bubble all in the same area, if it was a product incompatibility you would expect to see it wide spread. I would lean towards some kind of surface contamination in those areas.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

AngieM said:


> It's definitely metal.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


Same with those entry doors. I've tried painting them with the Aura exterior semi straight over the factory primed and it scratches like crazy. I always prime with bonding primer now. Weird that it totally bubbled thougn..

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Damn.. IDK for real, but I call it SW sucks...


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Not a SW rep but interesting to see it bubble all in the same area, if it was a product incompatibility you would expect to see it wide spread. I would lean towards some kind of surface contamination in those areas.


I don't think so because it's on multiple panels. Not only that, but I thoroughly pressure washed it. I even used the turbo tip. 

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

AngieM said:


> I don't think so because it's on multiple panels. Not only that, but I thoroughly pressure washed it. I even used the turbo tip.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk



Is it well adhered in other areas? Does it come off in strips? Only other explanation I can think of is metal expansion caused a crack allowing moisture under the coating.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Is it rusting by any chance.? I've never seen those doors Come factory green btw. Usually white.. Also, why did you use a turbo nozzle? Those are super powerful! 
Lastly, I never liked that simple green stuff. I find it really hard to rinse all the foam off entirely.

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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

AngieM said:


> A rare warranty call back. I painted this garage door last year. The green color underneath was the factory color. I used SW Pro Industrial multi surface acrylic. I pressure washed it to prep with simple green. Now this.
> 
> Any insights what I did wrong?
> 
> ...


Happens to everybody once in a while...
Maybe some residue from cleaning, or some chalkiness on surface, or improper drying/curing environments, etc...?Could be any number of things that caused it. Doesn't really matter.
Good opportunity to show the customer what kind of painter you are, by how you handle the situation. hopefully you can fix it so that it doesn't become a recurring problem. 


pressure wash (if possible) no chems. 
maybe take a wire brush and gently remove peeling paint. 
prime with good exterior primer. 
re-coat (x)2 coats 100% Acrylic Paint 
forget about it.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Wrong product for the surface. If your rep knows anything, that product was designed as a dryfall alternative for really dirty surfaces. It has tenatious adhesion yes, but is pretty brittle as you can see. The product was found to really dry super quick like a dryfall and stick to lots of stuff, so what happens? They oversell what the product is really for.


Depending on the chalkyness of the door, I use Sealkrete original for the chalk binding primer, then Duration Satin usually.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

My customer asked if I could come over and touch it up so it looked better for a graduation party. I gave it an even worse disease! I texted her to profusely apologize and assure her I will make this right. Sigh. Call backs are expensive, but surely will not make this mistake again.









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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

AngieM said:


> My customer asked if I could come over and touch it up so it looked better for a graduation party. I gave it an even worse disease! I texted her to profusely apologize and assure her I will make this right. Sigh. Call backs are expensive, but surely will not make this mistake again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did ya give a quick scrape first?
It kind of looks like what happens when you paint in the direct sun..

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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

The first time I did this garage door it was because the home owner painted it herself and it failed. I attributed it to insufficient surface preparation and surface contamination. 

Here's a video of me pressure washing it last year. It made a ginormous mess that took a long time to clean up. At least I know that to expect when I do this again.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiznubyFYoA/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ndl5hm04tx1p

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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

That looks like failure due to a contaminant. I couldn't view the video, so I have some questions;

1. What was the failure you observed after the homeowner painted the garage?

2. Did you actually remove any paint the homeowner applied?

3. What did the homeowner use to paint the garage door?

4. Do the homeowners own a diesel vehicle that backs up to garage

5. Does the homeowner use a spray wax to treat his vehicles?


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

The paint was failing the same way it is now. In large pieces separated from the surface. I pressure washed it and removed 100% of the old paint. Got it all the way back to the original painted garage door. She used an exterior grade paint from home depot. No diesel or wax that I know of.



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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

That looked like an awful mess to clean up. If you do go that route again I would say take a clean spray bottle of water and spray it in the problem spots to see if it just runs off or beads up like it would over oil or some other non water soluble. If it does then use a degreaser before painting.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Those thin gauge steel doors are good heat conductors and often experience condensation on the exterior surfaces during early morning hours when painted in the spring depending upon the dew point. This can inhibit the curing of WB finishes applied the previous day, potentially resulting in blistering the next morning, especially on non-porous factory coatings used on metal doors. The dew usually flashes off before anybody might be up and about to even take notice that they were ever wet.

I pretty much have the same doors on my house which were repainted over the factory finish 4 years ago. I scuffed the heck out of them with 3M 07447 Maroon Pads, providing a good scratch profile for paint and/or primer to adhere to. I wiped them down with Wil-bond, used an alkyd primer for clean metal (I used metal primer because I removed some rust on outside edges, exposing metal), followed by a matte alkyd metal specific coating. I pressure wash the house every year, and can give the doors a good aggressive blasting, with none of the finish coming off. The finish is tight and sound.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Those thin gauge steel doors are good heat conductors and often experience condensation on the exterior surfaces during early morning hours when painted in the spring depending upon the dew point. This can inhibit the curing of WB finishes applied the previous day, potentially resulting in blistering the next morning, especially on non-porous factory coatings used on metal doors. The dew usually flashes off before anybody might be up and about to even take notice that they were ever wet.


As far as I understand it, moisture in the air, or relative humidity, will condensate on cold metal surfaces at a particular dew point temperature rather than on a warm metal surface. Then there's expansion and contraction. Which most acrylics should have enough elasticity to handle. But what you're saying is something to consider.

I'm still leaning towards surface contamination, or the properties of a high surface tension Kynar finish that wasn't scuffed enough to create an anchor for a subsequent coating.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

CApainter said:


> As far as I understand it, moisture in the air, or relative humidity, will condensate on cold metal surfaces at a particular dew point temperature rather than on a warm metal surface. Then there's expansion and contraction. Which most acrylics should have enough elasticity to handle. But what you're saying is something to consider.
> 
> I'm still leaning towards surface contamination, or the properties of a high surface tension Kynar finish that wasn't scuffed enough to create an anchor for a subsequent coating.


In hindsight you’re correct and I’m wrong assuming the garage is unconditioned space which would be true for most garages. My garage on the other hand is conditioned resulting in extreme temperature gradients. In the winter I’d get condensation on the interior, and the reverse in the warmer months with the A/C kicking on, resulting in condensation on the exterior, the doors having a thin layer of vinyl faced foam insulation on the interior face which is ineffective for a conditioned garage. I added an additional layer of vinyl faced fiberglass insulation (drop ceiling panels) to remedy but still have perpetual puddling at the panel shiplap joints. A similar dynamic exists with conditioned metal buildings as well.

As you mentioned, the high surface tension combined with insufficient scuffing resulting in poor to no anchoring/adhesion and the possibility of surface contamination is the likely cause. 

With regards to surface contamination, I know of homeowners/DIY’ers who have used clear polymer wipe-on restoration products to restore color and sheen to dark colored factory finished metal doors and vinyl shutters that have oxidized/chalked, resulting in bonding issues when refinishing with paint, one even having used Armor-All..


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I've made some pretty good money off of that SW Pro industrial multi-surface acrylic the last couple of years! Good job SW!


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

If any silicone (spray, probably) ever got on the door the paint will not adhere. Even pressure washing will not remove it; it will just push it around a bit. 

If you see any beading of water after the pressure washing it might be that there is silicone still on the door.

A friend who owns an autobody shop had a car come in with a small dent. But there was silicone on the surface of the car. The body filler came off and the paint flaked off. He redid the job washing the car and wiping it down with PreSol, and it still flaked off. 

Silicone will defeat you every time. I'm not sayin that is the case here. But maybe.

In 1997 Dodge's Neon plant had a paint line contaminated with silicone. Apparently the stamping oil had some silicone in it. They had to repaint many cars that year and the repaints did not hold up very well either.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Just slap a coat of Behr Marquee exterior on it. It'll be perfect. Trust me.


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Maybe it was powder-coated from the factory or a Kynar finish like on roofs. Neither one seems to paint well without significant hoops to jump through. We've had success over Kynar with two-part epoxy basecoat and a urethane top-coat. I've successfully dodged coating over powder-coats for 20 years, and I'm trying to keep it that way. 

Could be a bit much on a residential garage door, but I wouldn't put it past the manufacturer to use one of the two methods above. Kynar especially.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Interesting Article from the Door & Access Manufacturer’s Association International 

How to Repaint a Steel Garage Door (Spring 2017)

“For Newly Installed Doors
If the door was installed in the last two years, it’s surface may have
a layer of factory-applied wax (used to protect the steel panels during fabrication and transit). Failure to remove this material will result in poor adhesion of the new coating. To remove this wax, lightly scuff the surface with a GRAY (not green) 3M synthetic steel wool pad (equivalent to “000” steel wool) saturated with soapy water. Wipe and rinse with clean water only to remove any loose dust or soap film.
Then, perform the Adhesion Test at right. If poor adhesion is still observed, repeat step #4. It is imperative, of course, not to remove the factory finish during this process. If the test results still indicate poor adhesion, do not proceed. Contact your garage door supplier to discuss options or alternative coatings.”


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I wouldn't be surprised if they used Teflon in their coating process. I used to dip finished aluminum parts in a Teflon vat once the parts had been anodized.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Coil coated.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Interesting Article from the Door & Access Manufacturer’s Association International
> 
> How to Repaint a Steel Garage Door (Spring 2017)
> 
> ...


Interesting. I had heard this before but i thought it was for vinyl doors & siding.

I'd use a car de-waxer with the scotch pad & hot water. To this day I've never used steel wool. I've used the steel wool equivalent pads only.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

ParamountPaint said:


> Maybe it was powder-coated from the factory or a Kynar finish like on roofs. Neither one seems to paint well without significant hoops to jump through. We've had success over Kynar with two-part epoxy basecoat and a urethane top-coat. I've successfully dodged coating over powder-coats for 20 years, and I'm trying to keep it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Could be a bit much on a residential garage door, but I wouldn't put it past the manufacturer to use one of the two methods above. Kynar especially.


Oh God help me. 

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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Interesting Article from the Door & Access Manufacturer’s Association International
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! What's the adhesion test? 

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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

AngieM said:


> Thank you! What's the adhesion test?
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


 You’re welcome!

Adhesion test:
https://www.dasma.com/articles/feature/HowToRepaint_Spring2017.pdf

Clopay, A DASMA member overhead door manufacturer, has a very detailed prep and finishing spec which might be of use:

https://www.clopaydoor.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/inst-painting-1.pdf

The oil modified alkyds that I used aren’t recommended..neither are the maroon pads.

Hope this helps


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SW Shercryl with acrylic bonding primer is spec'd for Kynar. The system seemed to perform extremely well in terms of bonding. However, the effin Shercryl didn't hold it's sheen or color over the length of time I thought it should. I prefer the PPG Pitt Tech Plus rather than shercryl.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> SW Shercryl with acrylic bonding primer is spec'd for Kynar. The system seemed to perform extremely well in terms of bonding. However, the effin Shercryl didn't hold it's sheen or color over the length of time I thought it should. I prefer the PPG Pitt Tech Plus rather than shercryl.


Shercryl fades pretty quickly. Pitt Tech +...good stuff. Sold tons of it.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> Interesting. I had heard this before but i thought it was for vinyl doors & siding.
> 
> I'd use a car de-waxer with the scotch pad & hot water. To this day I've never used steel wool. I've used the steel wool equivalent pads only.


Do you know where steel wool comes from? Steel sheep!


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

CApainter said:


> SW Shercryl with acrylic bonding primer is spec'd for Kynar. The system seemed to perform extremely well in terms of bonding. However, the effin Shercryl didn't hold it's sheen or color over the length of time I thought it should. I prefer the PPG Pitt Tech Plus rather than shercryl.


I've been using the ppg dtr 2 part epoxy as a base coat. It would be great as a finish but it fades fast.

That's when we started using one of the ppg urethanes on top. Seems to have helped with fading.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ParamountPaint said:


> I've been using the ppg dtr 2 part epoxy as a base coat. It would be great as a finish but it fades fast.
> 
> That's when we started using one of the ppg urethanes on top. Seems to have helped with fading.


That sounds like the Pitt Guard we often use. Great as a primer, but no UV resistance. AS far as I know, The PPG PSX 700 polysiloxane is the only primer finish two component industrial coating that has UV resistance.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

CApainter said:


> That sounds like the Pitt Guard we often use. Great as a primer, but no UV resistance. AS far as I know, The PPG PSX 700 polysiloxane is the only primer finish two component industrial coating that has UV resistance.


That PSX 700 is a beast. We did about 6 miles of sound wall posts with it. Straight over unprimed grinded steel with a 4" roller.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Mr Smith said:


> That PSX 700 is a beast. We did about 6 miles of sound wall posts with it. Straight over unprimed grinded steel with a 4" roller.


Good Lord! At over $300.00 per gal kit, someone had some money to burn!


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## superjoric (Nov 17, 2021)

Well, considering that is a door vinyl, I don't really understand what you were expecting. You aren't allowed to use such paint on a vinyl door. You should read the specifications before using something new. My dad did the same thing a couple of months ago. The old and mad man didn't want to listen to me. So, he is already looking for someone to repaint this damn door. Besides all that, he broke the door. I bought it less than one year ago! Thankfully the guys from Garage Door and Gate Services Company Nashville – Easyfix already fixed it.


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## Redut (Nov 17, 2021)

I can assume that the coupling between the old coating and the new paint was fragile. This led to the fact that the white color just started to peel off. I think that you should cover the gate with either a primer or another substance that would increase the strength of the coupling. Why didn't you order a coloring service?. I bought a gate but I didn't like the color as it came from the factory and I asked the seller to change it. I paid a little more, but I didn't have to spend time painting myself. Try again to consult with a consultant in a paint store.


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