# Kitchen cabinets



## Peterisbackintheaction

Hi,
I have a question 
What product is most popular among contractors to spray the cabinets 
What primer and top coat system and
Equipment used for ( airless 395 or capspray 105 ? For example ) 
What’s better cabinet coat or pre cat laquers ?
Please help , I have few projects coming and undecided what to choose 
Thank You


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## fromthenorthwest

Hey Peter, you'll get plenty of opinions on this but for me I use Smart Prime and then top coat with Scuff X. I use pretty much an all water- based system, as I get nervous spraying anything inflammatory in a customer's home or garage, which is where I spray all my cabinets jobs. For setup I use a Titan 440 with a 310 fine finish tip

Having said that, the prevailing primer seems to be BIN shellac. Very good at blocking stains as well as adhesion, I just don't have enough experience with it to let loose in the customer's home. I'm kind of in the same boat with the lacquers, seems to still be the industry standard but again not comfortable using in a customer's home, plus I only have one sprayer and the switching between shellac, lacquer and water base constantly would be a nightmare. 

I think the water based products have come a long way so I feel comfortable with their durability. Another great water based product is PPG breakthrough v250 if you can get it. Just a little trickier on the learning curve as it's pretty runny to spray. Cabinet coat is good to.

Lots of great finishers on here so I'm sure you'll get plenty more good information.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Still Satin Impervo for my own stuff or fine paints of europe if I ever decide to bring it in since it blows everything else away. Waterborne has come along way over the last years but quite simply oil can do things I have never seen waterborne achieve.

Lacquer has a purpose however for refinishing you need to strip bare to the substrate also with pigmented lacquers touchups become a nightmare.


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## Holland

I am just starting to use SmartPrime also, but I like it so far.

I really like S-W Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd (hybrid). A true satin, with a durable smooth finish- brush, rolls and sprays well.

Oils are not practical for most cabinets (IMO). The fumes and long dry time make them less than ideal. They also yellow as they age, making touch-ups of some colors (like white) look like polka dots. It is durable and looks nice, but can also become brittle as it ages, causing fine cracks in any joints/seams.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Holland said:


> I am just starting to use SmartPrime also, but I like it so far.
> 
> I really like S-W Pro Classic Acrylic Alkyd (hybrid). A true satin, with a durable smooth finish- brush, rolls and sprays well.
> 
> Oils are not practical for most cabinets (IMO). The fumes and long dry time make them less than ideal. They also yellow as they age, making touch-ups of some colors (like white) look like polka dots. It is durable and looks nice, *but can also become brittle as it ages, causing fine cracks in any joints/seams.*


Maybe traditional oils but not FPE. Even my oldest cabinet job I did 10 years ago in impervo and they still look good.
Yellowing is a concern with all oil finishes but seeing as how most of the prefinish compainies get away with shipping out touchup paint that doesn't match their lacquer finish at all I don't really see the issue.
In fact I recall a painter bringing me some touchup paint to match a couple gallons to. I spent a couple hours getting it perfect, they sprayed out a bunch of doors then come to find out the touchup paint they brought me didn't even come close to the factory finish! I won't even match to 'touchup' paint ever again. Only if they bring me a physical piece to match to


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## WildBill

Finished some Maple Doors in BIN, sands beautiful. prepped ready to go, going down a new path Saturday. Going to shoot a few doors with Milesi, 1K and 2K.


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## Masterwork

Use your PPE for the 2k. It's not healthy stuff.


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## finishesbykevyn

Yep. Lots of Rabbit hole thread on here about this. Personally I'm still BIN/Advance for repaints.


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## mug

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Still Satin Impervo for my own stuff or fine paints of europe if I ever decide to bring it in since it blows everything else away. Waterborne has come along way over the last years but quite simply oil can do things I have never seen waterborne achieve.
> 
> Lacquer has a purpose however for refinishing you need to strip bare to the substrate also with pigmented lacquers touchups become a nightmare.



FPE Eco satin?


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## EvanB

your going to get different answer because everyone prefers different products. a lot of people prefer Bin/Advanced because its application is easy and has less paint fumes. you will also see a lot of people using vinyl sealer and a waterborne top coat. I like to use Axalta vinyl sealer and waterborne conversion varnish. on my next cabinet job were going to be switching to CIC. were going to be switching to a full waterborne refinishing system with the CIC CW-1107 Water-Based 1k/2k Acrylic Polyurethane Primer and CIC CW-3116 White 2K Polyurethane Top Coat.


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## cocomonkeynuts

mug said:


> FPE Eco satin?


Havn't used their waterborne finishes. I can tell you that it is possible to _brush _an entire wall with a high gloss 98+ ferrari red with hollandlac and have it look like a pane of glass. Never seen a waterborne product that can do that.


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## Masterwork

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Never seen a waterborne product that can do that.


Never seen a customer willing to pay for something like that. Cheaper to buy new cabinets, no?


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## cocomonkeynuts

Masterwork said:


> Never seen a customer willing to pay for something like that. Cheaper to buy new cabinets, no?


Correct, probably not many customers willing to pay for 100+ hours labor. They do exist though.


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## Redux

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Correct, probably not many customers willing to pay for 100+ hours labor. They do exist though.


Only a 100 hrs? That would barely cover my sample & meeting time for finishing new builds!


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## cocomonkeynuts

Redux said:


> *Only a 100 hrs?* That would barely cover my sample & meeting time for finishing new builds!


Sorry if that wasn't clear I'm basing that off a quote I saw for an entry door, not a kitchen cabinets.


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## WildBill

Finally got around to spraying two test cabinet doors with the Milesi HKR 113. On the test panels I did not and the 2 K component. WOW!!!, does this stuff lay down nice. Thinned a 5KG Can with 6 oz. of water. Sprayed it with a Graco 310 FFLP. Started off with low pressure until tails were gone. I'm sold on the Milesi. Perfecto!!!!


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## mug

Those who don't know the 113 is 30 sheen which I highly recommend if not adding the hardener. 
I really love the product, however it cracks over caulk even the fast dry Dap. 
I haven't been caulking doors. I just like to have a clean line against the wall and to cover the silicone left by the granite installers. 
Might be back to the hillbilly lab again.


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## WildBill

Thanks for the clarification Mug, correct the 113 is 30 Sheen, 114 = 20 sheen. Man does this stuff lay down. I'm glad you brought up the caulking, One test door was caulked the other not, per your suggestion, I will probably forego the caulk. Talking with another guy on a different site, he recommended warming the HKR 113 which I did. I'm a believer now!!!


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## Respec

Yup, lots of opinions here. I like ML Campbells Aqualente Plus precat lacquer. I haven't tried Milesi yet. I just talked to my rep today and his opinion is that the Aqualente Plus is probably a little better than the Melisi1K version, but the 2K version would top the Aqualente Plus. My guys can't do math though, so I have to keep it as simple as possible so they don't mess anything up.


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## Packard

I build custom cabinets. For years I had been using PPG's Breakthrough! with good results. I had problems spraying (HVLP) over any shellac based primer. It caused crazing on the finish. At the suggestion of the PPG dealer I shot directly over the wood. Adhesion seemed quite good (I tested it by using a utility knife to score 1/8" squares and then pressing masking tape on the finish. None of the squares lifted off.).

But the PPG dealer went out of business due to the Covid pandemic. So now I am using Advance. The satin finish is very nice. I am shooting over 123, but I will be trying the Smart Prime on the next set of cabinets I produce.

The Advance dries S-L-O-W-L-Y compared to the Breakthrough!, but it levels nicely and I am getting used to it. Unlike most members here I only need to do one thing well, I don't get involved with painting over a variety of substrates, just fresh lumber and plywood.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Packard said:


> I build custom cabinets. For years I had been using PPG's Breakthrough! with good results. I had problems spraying (HVLP) over any shellac based primer. It caused crazing on the finish. At the suggestion of the PPG dealer I shot directly over the wood. Adhesion seemed quite good (I tested it by using a utility knife to score 1/8" squares and then pressing masking tape on the finish. None of the squares lifted off.).
> 
> But the PPG dealer went out of business due to the Covid pandemic. So now I am using Advance. The satin finish is very nice. I am shooting over 123, but I will be trying the Smart Prime on the next set of cabinets I produce.
> 
> The Advance dries S-L-O-W-L-Y compared to the Breakthrough!, but it levels nicely and I am getting used to it. Unlike most members here I only need to do one thing well, I don't get involved with painting over a variety of substrates, just fresh lumber and plywood.


 I got some of that new command product in. I brushed some out its FAST.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Packard said:


> I build custom cabinets. For years I had been using PPG's Breakthrough! with good results. I had problems spraying (HVLP) over any shellac based primer. It caused crazing on the finish. At the suggestion of the PPG dealer I shot directly over the wood. Adhesion seemed quite good (I tested it by using a utility knife to score 1/8" squares and then pressing masking tape on the finish. None of the squares lifted off.).
> 
> But the PPG dealer went out of business due to the Covid pandemic. So now I am using Advance. The satin finish is very nice. I am shooting over 123, but I will be trying the Smart Prime on the next set of cabinets I produce.
> 
> The Advance dries S-L-O-W-L-Y compared to the Breakthrough!, but it levels nicely and I am getting used to it. Unlike most members here I only need to do one thing well, I don't get involved with painting over a variety of substrates, just fresh lumber and plywood.


duplicate


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## monarchski

Packard said:


> I build custom cabinets. For years I had been using PPG's Breakthrough! with good results. I had problems spraying (HVLP) over any shellac based primer. It caused crazing on the finish. At the suggestion of the PPG dealer I shot directly over the wood. Adhesion seemed quite good (I tested it by using a utility knife to score 1/8" squares and then pressing masking tape on the finish. None of the squares lifted off.).
> 
> But the PPG dealer went out of business due to the Covid pandemic. So now I am using Advance. The satin finish is very nice. I am shooting over 123, but I will be trying the Smart Prime on the next set of cabinets I produce.
> 
> The Advance dries S-L-O-W-L-Y compared to the Breakthrough!, but it levels nicely and I am getting used to it. Unlike most members here I only need to do one thing well, I don't get involved with painting over a variety of substrates, just fresh lumber and plywood.


Just used some of the new Benjamin Moore Command. I like it better than Breakthrough. Has better sag resistance and a little better open time.


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## finishesbykevyn

monarchski said:


> Just used some of the new Benjamin Moore Command. I like it better than Breakthrough. Has better sag resistance and a little better open time.


 Have also been using it too on a couple projects. What are you spraying it with monarchski? Fantastic dry times, but pretty loose so you have to be careful of sagging on vertical surfaces. I found it was wanting to fisheye over BIN Shellac. Bit of a learning curve but love the quick recoat time.


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## finishesbykevyn

Respec said:


> Yup, lots of opinions here. I like ML Campbells Aqualente Plus precat lacquer. I haven't tried Milesi yet. I just talked to my rep today and his opinion is that the Aqualente Plus is probably a little better than the Melisi1K version, but the 2K version would top the Aqualente Plus. My guys can't do math though, so I have to keep it as simple as possible so they don't mess anything up.


Are you using this on repaints or new stock?


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## monarchski

finishesbykevyn said:


> Have also been using it too on a couple projects. What are you spraying it with monarchski? Fantastic dry times, but pretty loose so you have to be careful of sagging on vertical surfaces. I found it was wanting to fisheye over BIN Shellac. Bit of a learning curve but love the quick recoat time.


Used a 308 Titan FF tip because I was worried about sags but will probably move up to a 410 next time.


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## Mudbone1

finishesbykevyn said:


> Yep. Lots of Rabbit hole thread on here about this. Personally I'm still BIN/Advance for repaints.


Agree!


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## Rbriggs82

Is command available everywhere now?


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> Is command available everywhere now?


Nope. I managed to get some from my paint rep for testing. Supposedly April, in Canada anyhow..may already be available in parts of the US..


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## Rbriggs82

Fisheyes over bin is a bit concerning, I wonder why something like that would happen.


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> Fisheyes over bin is a bit concerning, I wonder why something like that would happen.


Well I'm about to try some of the Satin finish over BIn today, so will let you know if it happens again..


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## cocomonkeynuts

Command is 150g/L VOC so it won't be available everywhere in places with VOC restrictions. There is a 50g/L version comming for those areas... I have it in my area, I just ordered in some.


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## Redux

Rbriggs82 said:


> Fisheyes over bin is a bit concerning, I wonder why something like that would happen.


The fisheyes/crawling could be due to the ammonia in the product, which might be softening and/or re-wetting the shellac.


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## finishesbykevyn

Ok. Well it happened over the Bin again, but only with my airless sprayer, not with hvlp. So mixed results. 😕 Maybe contamination in the lines? Although it was flawless on the other pieces that I primed with fresh start. Not horrible, but concerning.. Sprayed really well from hvlp thinned 10% but doesn't flow out like it does with airless..


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## Packard

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Command is 150g/L VOC so it won't be available everywhere in places with VOC restrictions. There is a 50g/L version comming for those areas... I have it in my area, I just ordered in some.


PPG has Breakthrough! in 50 VOC and 250 VOC, but the 50 VOC is not recommended for cabinets. Any word on performance difference with the different VOC rating?


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## finishesbykevyn

Packard said:


> PPG has Breakthrough! in 50 VOC and 250 VOC, but the 50 VOC is not recommended for cabinets. Any word on performance difference with the different VOC rating?


Depends what your using it for. From what I've heard, it's quite significant.


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## Packard

finishesbykevyn said:


> Depends what your using it for. From what I've heard, it's quite significant.


I was wondering if Command had similar significant differences in performance between 250 VOC and 50 VOC.


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## finishesbykevyn

Packard said:


> I was wondering if Command had similar significant differences in performance between 250 VOC and 50 VOC.


I was unaware that Command came in those 2 options? From the tds I have, it states 138grams/litre.


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## Masterwork

Apparently a local painter, here, got Benjamin-moore to warranty his Scuff-x cabinets.... I'm wondering if I can get the same.


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## fromthenorthwest

Masterwork said:


> Apparently a local painter, here, got Benjamin-moore to warranty his Scuff-x cabinets.... I'm wondering if I can get the same.


That'd be sweet because that's what I've been using on cabinets for the last year or so too!


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## cocomonkeynuts

finishesbykevyn said:


> I was unaware that Command came in those 2 options? From the tds I have, it states 138grams/litre.


50g/l Is not available yet


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## finishesbykevyn

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 50g/l Is not available yet


And hopefully never is.


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## Respec

finishesbykevyn said:


> Are you using this on repaints or new stock?


Both. Sometimes we are refinishing everything and sometimes we are replacing the doors, but refinishing the frames, kind of a hybrid refacing. When we are refinishing, we sand the old finish back to reduce the mil thickness, then prime and finish.


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## cabinet sprayers

finishesbykevyn said:


> Have also been using it too on a couple projects. What are you spraying it with monarchski? Fantastic dry times, but pretty loose so you have to be careful of sagging on vertical surfaces. I found it was wanting to fisheye over BIN Shellac. Bit of a learning curve but love the quick recoat time.


Would you happen to have pictures to post with the products used in picture? I'd love to see.


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## finishesbykevyn

cabinet sprayers said:


> Would you happen to have pictures to post with the products used in picture? I'd love to see.


Which product are you referring? The Command or Advance?


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