# Asking for advice



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

I have been asked to give a bid on painting some exterior doors in a northern suburb of Chicago. These doors face almost directly east. The owners' son tells me that these doors are American cherry. The woodwork inside also is the same wood. I am assuming that all of the woodwork, including the exterior of the front doors, was stained and finished with either a clear coat or a tinted coat of something. These beautiful wood doors are positioned directly in harms' way of the sun. The owners' son lives next door and has similarly beautiful wooden doors, but they are recessed by the structure of the house and so do not get so much bleaching sunlight.

The son is in charge of this work. I explained to him that a beautiful as the wood is, my recommendation is that they should be painted a color close to what the stain is. As you can see from the photos, the sun has done a good job of bleaching the wood on these doors. I am posting photos of the south and north jambs. You can get an idea of what the original appearance was from the photo of the south jamb that was shaded from the sun. There are cracks that have formed as well.

I am wondering about how to approach this bid. My thoughts about doing this are:

1. Sand everything down with a vacuum attached random orbital sander for flat surfaces and sponge sanders for the recessed and curved areas.

2. Skim coat the badly bleached areas first, then prime, or

prime first, then skim coat the cracked areas

3. Prime everything with ____________ primer

4. Paint the doors and trim at least 2 coats with _____________ paint.

I already asked Will at my local BM dealer about contractors who are really good with jobs like this. He said that he knows of a cracker jack contractor who could handle this. I have done a bunch of things in my day, but I don't want to mess up these doors.

I just painted a front entrance door for a great neighbor of mine. I may have mentioned this in another post. I brought him tools to do prep work. I was going to ask him if I could paint the door, but did not ask him. The next day I came by and saw that he had brushed the insets of the panels. I asked him if he would let me paint the doors for free as he was using (at Will's suggestion over FPE Hollandlac - stinky paint!) BM's Grand Entrance and I wanted to find out how that worked. I really liked it and found that it did not dry all that fast, so I was able to mini roll over all the flat surfaces after I had already rolled them out! 

The thing is, when I was painting this door, it was in August and very humid and hot, but my neighbor had a storm door that could be closed while the A/C was on.

The current doors I am asking about have no storm doors to protect the paint while it is drying. I was wanting to wait until fall when the weather is cooler and drier here in northern Illinois. I find myself under the gun to give this guy an estimate, so I am asking all of you how you might proceed with this.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Fast drying paint*

I forgot to ask about a paint that would dry fast enough between coats so that the doors could be closed and locked after each coat. Any thoughts?

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Just leave the weather stripping out for a few days. Any waterborne paint will dry about the same. Just be careful putting the doorknobs back on.

Dont overthink it. Sand, prime, sand caulk fill, topcoat. I'd make a two day project out of it. Sand, prime, prep the first day, and two or three topcoats the next. Hopefully, you'll have other things to during drytime.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

It is tempting to want to paint these doors, but is it the right answer? 
($10,000+ doors deserve consideration.)

I find myself thinking how they would look stripped, and coated with Spar Varnish or a Sikkens product meant for doors.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

could the doors possibly be mahogony??


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Knowing the North Shore, I would agree with what Holland has said, those doors are very likely Mahogony, not Cherry.

You also didn't mention how long it's been since these doors were last finished?

What makes you think painting them will last any longer than stain and varnish? With heavy UV exposure any wood should receive periodic maintenance!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I think they would look good painted black! Fresh start primer, Ext. Aura Satin finish. (*Not Grand Entrance)Either wood filler or caulking in those cracks..


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I think they would look good painted black! Fresh start primer, Ext. Aura Satin finish. (*Not Grand Entrance)Either wood filler or caulking in those cracks..



I've never tried the stuff, but why do you say no to Grand Entrance? Just curious. Stuff's expensive for sure, but the customer's paying for it so who cares. The place where I get my BM paint around here won't even stock it.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Kind of surprised me when I saw the pics in the OP. Wow, they really let those things go! Gonna be a fair amount of work just prepping those things. Will look beautiful again when they're done.


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## Fman (Aug 20, 2011)

It looks like they have a few bucks. Whether you paint or stain, they ought to invest in a nice awning.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

It would be an absolute travesty to paint those doors IMO. If he wants to keep them looking nice after you're done, suggest a maintenance schedule and be diligent about keeping in contact with him when the timeline dictates a maintenance is due. Yes, keeping the wood natural requires more frequent maintenance, but the prep for re-coat is typically a fraction of that of a film-forming finish. As an aside, I've never seen a door successfully painted to match or even resemble the natural look unless it was performed by a skilled faux applicator. More often than not, they typically come out looking more like a shade of band-aid or hot dog.

I know from your past posts that you are one who strives to provide the best possible finished product . Because of that, consider at least contacting the expert your BM dealer mentioned to see if he'd be willing to provide some guidance as far as preparation and product selection. I'd be inclined to suggest a 2k poly or even search for a phenolic resin varnish most commonly used on boats, which take a lot more abuse & exposure to UV. I'm not referring to store-bought "marine" varnishes. Products I'm referring to could be sourced by searching for "brightwork clear varnish".


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> It would be an absolute travesty to paint those doors IMO. If he wants to keep them looking nice after you're done, suggest a maintenance schedule and be diligent about keeping in contact with him when the timeline dictates a maintenance is due. Yes, keeping the wood natural requires more frequent maintenance, but the prep for re-coat is typically a fraction of that of a film-forming finish. As an aside, I've never seen a door successfully painted to match or even resemble the natural look unless it was performed by a skilled faux applicator. More often than not, they typically come out looking more like a shade of band-aid or hot dog.
> 
> I know from your past posts that you are one who strives to provide the best possible finished product . Because of that, consider at least contacting the expert your BM dealer mentioned to see if he'd be willing to provide some guidance as far as preparation and product selection. I'd be inclined to suggest a 2k poly or even search for a phenolic resin varnish most commonly used on boats, which take a lot more abuse & exposure to UV. I'm not referring to store-bought "marine" varnishes. Products I'm referring to could be sourced by searching for "brightwork clear varnish".


2K poly not recommended on exterior wood. Sikkens door &window (contains phenolic resin), traditional spar varnish or waterborne spar like dalys aquaspar, general finishes 450 or old master's ascend. Strip and seal those doors with benite first. Would be a shame to paint them.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > I think they would look good painted black! Fresh start primer, Ext. Aura Satin finish. (*Not Grand Entrance)Either wood filler or caulking in those cracks..
> ...


 aura dries much faster than grand entrance


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 2K poly not recommended on exterior wood.


LOL. You sure about that? MLC's Polarion X is a great 2k poly rated for Exteriors, specifically, entry doors. Their Isolante sealer followed by Polarion is the perfect 1-2 punch. 

Here's the link:
https://www.mlcampbell.com/product/polarion-x/

1st sentence on MLC's Polarion X page reads, "M.L. Campbell POLARION X 2K Acrylic Exterior Polyurethane is the latest advancement in high-performance wood finishes for entrance doors, garage doors, trim, millwork or any exterior wood surface that needs to resist the toughest weather mother nature serves up.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, Grand Entrance is a fantastic product. It's pretty much like Advance but rated for exterior(for some reason)..Except it also has a 16hr recoat time and only comes in high gloss. Looks pretty dang good sprayed on metal doors where it can flow out like an automotive paint. 
I like the regular Aura for quicker recoat times and lower gloss options.



Wildbill7145 said:


> I've never tried the stuff, but why do you say no to Grand Entrance? Just curious. Stuff's expensive for sure, but the customer's paying for it so who cares. The place where I get my BM paint around here won't even stock it.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> LOL. You sure about that? MLC's Polarion X is a great 2k poly rated for Exteriors, specifically, entry doors. Their Isolante sealer followed by Polarion is the perfect 1-2 punch.
> 
> Here's the link:
> https://www.mlcampbell.com/product/polarion-x/
> ...



So how flexible is that stuff? 2K poly is generally reserved for interior stuff because of how rigid it is, its catalyzed highly crosslinked. The MSDS on that looks nasty to work with, wear a respirator!
PS no matter what the marketing folks put on the can flexibility is king on exterior. Also I always prefer products with easy recoat (ie not sikkens 123) so that would rule out 2K stuff anyway.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Don't get me wrong, Grand Entrance is a fantastic product. It's pretty much like Advance but rated for exterior(for some reason)..Except it also has a 16hr recoat time and only comes in high gloss. Looks pretty dang good sprayed on metal doors where it can flow out like an automotive paint.
> I like the regular Aura for quicker recoat times and lower gloss options.



Grand entrance has some urethane modified resins making it suitable for exterior use. Comes satin and high gloss. Advance highgloss is also 'rated' for exterior use.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I would shoot for a refinish. Like several people have stated, it's a damn shame to paint nice wood like that. Just get them to call you back once a year or two to put a coat on...

Maybe get a finish designed for boats. Thats the best stuff, from what I hear.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> I would shoot for a refinish. Like several people have stated, it's a damn shame to paint nice wood like that. Just get them to call you back once a year or two to put a coat on...
> 
> Maybe get a finish designed for boats. Thats the best stuff, from what I hear.



What I heard from guys doing high end yachts with 2K products like Bristol finishes is that they only last a year or two anyway then strip and refinish.


IMO its better to use a good sealer like benite and then an easy to recoat product like spar urethane or sikkens door & window. As long as they stick to a maintenance schedule that would be an easy to use inexpensive system.


As a bonus the homeowners can be around those products. Not the case with that MLcambell stuff, that product is 70%/vol hot solvents.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

futtyos said:


> I have been asked to give a bid on painting some exterior doors in a northern suburb of Chicago. These doors face almost directly east. The owners' son tells me that these doors are American cherry.


Looks more like mahogany than cherry to me. Regardless, I would never paint them. 2 part marine spar varnish...Interlux Perfection is a good one. Will outlast anything else I've ever tried in harsh exterior environs, and I've tried about everything. About $70.00/qt. I'd still give it a maintenance coat every year (or 2 max) under the conditions you describe.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> futtyos said:
> 
> 
> > I have been asked to give a bid on painting some exterior doors in a northern suburb of Chicago. These doors face almost directly east. The owners' son tells me that these doors are American cherry.
> ...


What's the point of using expensive and toxic 2K materials when your recoating 1-2 years? Sealing with benite and a quality waterborne spar varnish will easily last 2+ years.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> What's the point of using expensive and toxic 2K materials when your recoating 1-2 years? Sealing with benite and a quality waterborne spar varnish will easily last 2+ years.


Because if you tell people 1-2 years, chances are they will forget and put it off until 3-4 years. They 2 part spar is probably going to hold up 3-5 years until starts showing deterioration. I said 1-2 years is what I would do. Not what's going to be needed. A maintenance coat with clear involves so little work, I tend to overdo it when It comes to clear coat on exterior doors


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> cocomonkeynuts said:
> 
> 
> > What's the point of using expensive and toxic 2K materials when your recoating 1-2 years? Sealing with benite and a quality waterborne spar varnish will easily last 2+ years.
> ...


Waterborne Dalys, general finishes, old master's ascend etc... will last 4-5 years on properly sealed wood. Just don't see the need for 2K stuff. It's super toxic and really expensive and on exterior wood I don't see it out lasting traditional products anyway.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Waterborne Dalys, general finishes, old master's ascend etc... will last 4-5 years on properly sealed wood. Just don't see the need for 2K stuff. It's super toxic and really expensive and on exterior wood I don't see it out lasting traditional products anyway.


In my experience, the waterborne stuff just doesn't hold up to all day sun like 2 part spar (or traditional spar for that matter). Waterbourn is good if your looking for the easy way. Just my experience, I'm sure others will vary...they are, of course, wrong.:biggrin:


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

The Old Masters Ascend was actually made as a clear coat for farm equipment overseas. It has no problem with all day sun.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

KooLayed369 said:


> The Old Masters Ascend was actually made as a clear coat for farm equipment overseas. It has no problem with all day sun.


From what I can tell, it was introduced in 2018....How would you know how well this product holds up? My recommendations are from actual experience.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> From what I can tell, it was introduced in 2018....How would you know how well this product holds up? My recommendations are from actual experience.



He means its a rebranded clear coat that has been heavily tested. Probably a similar resin technology to masters armor



Our store has been around for 40+ years I have a lot of product feedback on what works and what doesn't. Sure enough I have seen jobs go 10+ years and zero maintenance without total failure. Of course by then it usually needs to be fully stripped like the doors in this post.


Seriously go look at the MSDS for that interlux product. That's some nasty industrial chemicals. How could you justify using that in a residential environment?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> He means its a rebranded clear coat that has been heavily tested. Probably a similar resin technology to masters armor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


10 years in constant sun is dubious for ANY product.

I would have been doing this in a shop environment, so you do have a point there. No doubt concerns, which I should have addressed in my original post, using 2 part spar on a residential site. Still not a reason to preclude the product, if you have access to a proper spray area. As I said, I have a lot of faith in the product.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> 10 years in constant sun is dubious for ANY product.
> 
> I would have been doing this in a shop environment, so you do have a point there. No doubt concerns, which I should have addressed in my original post, using 2 part spar on a residential site. Still not a reason to preclude the product, if you have access to a proper spray area. As I said, I have a lot of faith in the product.



Yeah 10 years is too long, by then the substrate is starting to deteriorate and needs restoration. Just had a customer tell me hes re coating sikkens log & siding, going on 25 years on north facing side and still looking good, sand and recoating every 5 years on south.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Except it's going to take 4 times as long and be 4 times as expensive to completely strip those down and restain/varnish. vs. paint. I also would not want to strip them on site. It would be much easier to remove from hinges and finish on some saw horses or off site.. which would be pretty tough to find a temp door for that opening..lol
I'm also not married to the varnished wood look. I think they would still look fantastic with paint regardless.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Painting the doors is easy, but Stripping the doors wouldn't be that difficult. Would just have to be careful. I have done numerous wooden windows in place, so it can be done. 

If you Strip and Re-Varnish, the question becomes: do you remove the doors, or strip in place? It would only take a day to strip the doors (including careful prep of the door and surrounding area).

Another day to sand and prep the doors for varnish.

Stripper will permanently etch almost anything it touches, so you would have to be extremely careful doing it in place. However, you could just tape down a heavy plastic sheeting or plastic tarps around the entry and then tarp over that, and tape, tape, tape everything. Remove shoes when leaving the work area, have some cardboard boxes to put stripper residue into. Clean up often, etc...

Moving the doors is a 2-3 man job, not including transportation (or carrying them to a nearby garage). There is a risk of damaging the doors while moving. You would also have to secure plywood in the openings if you went this route...

Spar Varnish would be easy, but I have maintained a Chris Craft (Luan wood) with good results using Epifanes (wet sanding between coats). Seems very durable, and would probably outlast Spar. Was used for underwater application after drying (The boat seat in water during the summers).


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Where is futty in all of this? He hasn't responded to this thread? What's up with that?:surprise:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Probably scared him off, knowing the pain in the a$$ this project will be.


Brushman4 said:


> Where is futty in all of this? He hasn't responded to this thread? What's up with that?:surprise:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

@Holland. I didn't say it would be difficult to strip the doors. I just said it will most certainly take alot more time.. AKA be more expensive. And definitely be a PITA doing on site with all the nasty chemicals , sanding etc..
If the client wants the door painted, (Which I'm sure Futtyos said) then why is everyone trying to talk him in to stripping and varnishing?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yeah 10 years is too long, by then the substrate is starting to deteriorate and needs restoration. Just had a customer tell me hes re coating sikkens log & siding, going on 25 years on north facing side and still looking good, sand and recoating every 5 years on south.


Yeah, I know I've done decks with Cetol Dek where the railings and other vertical surfaces have held up fine for 20+ years in areas that do not receive much sun or weather. A good product goes a long way, but amount of exposure to the sun and elements is often more of a determining factor. An aggressive maintenance recoat schedule will help to greatly reduce the amount of prep time required.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> @*Holland*. I didn't say it would be difficult to strip the doors. I just said it will most certainly take alot more time.. AKA be more expensive. And definitely be a PITA doing on site with all the nasty chemicals , sanding etc..
> If the client wants the door painted, (Which I'm sure Futtyos said) t*hen why is everyone trying to talk him in to stripping and varnishing?*



Because most people who work extensively with quality woods think painting mahogany should be a crime.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I dont think it would take much longer to strip and refinish than to paint properly... Other than the dry time if using oil...


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Probably scared him off, knowing the pain in the a$$ this project will be.


The futty I know would have replied with a 20-page dissertation by now, time to call for a wellness check!


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> From what I can tell, it was introduced in 2018....How would you know how well this product holds up? My recommendations are from actual experience.


Yes, coco was correct. It is a relabeled clear coat from Old Masters parent company, which makes industrial coatings among other things. The Ascend is a relabel of a product they made years ago for tractors and other large equipment (John Deere was a big user of it). It has years of testing and proof behind it. The same parent company also came up with some sort of "nano-technology" wood stain that will dry in 15 min and be ready for clear or 2nd coat. They didnt think it would do well in the commercial market, but when Old Masters heard of it, they told them to relabel it. So that is supposed to be coming out soon as well. Ask your local rep about it.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

KooLayed369 said:


> Yes, coco was correct. It is a relabeled clear coat from Old Masters parent company, which makes industrial coatings among other things. The Ascend is a relabel of a product they made years ago for tractors and other large equipment (John Deere was a big user of it). It has years of testing and proof behind it. The same parent company also came up with some sort of "nano-technology" wood stain that will dry in 15 min and be ready for clear or 2nd coat. They didnt think it would do well in the commercial market, but when Old Masters heard of it, they told them to relabel it. So that is supposed to be coming out soon as well. Ask your local rep about it.


Sounds like a good alternative if looking for a more eco-friendly product.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Yes, that is very valid. 



cocomonkeynuts said:


> Because most people who work extensively with quality woods think painting mahogany should be a crime.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

From now on, the owner can tell people "underneath the paint is really beautiful wood".


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*I made an offer*



Brushman4 said:


> Where is futty in all of this? He hasn't responded to this thread? What's up with that?:surprise:


I am still here. I went to the house last Sunday morning. There are 2 houses, one is where the parents (who are in their 80s live) and one where their 64 year old son lives. The son is the one I am dealing with, but the doors are on the parents' house. They are right next door to each other and share a giant concrete driveway.

On the other side of the parents' house is a new house being built. The son spoke with the painters (who have also painted a couple of other houses in the cul de sac) about painting the doors. I told the son that it would take at least 2 full days. With materials I told him it would be between at least 700.00 - 800.00 to do the job. He told me that the painters next door offered him 350.00. For that amount I will gladly let them do it, then stop by after it is done to inspect.

All that being said, I am still interested in what everyone has to say about this as other door reviving jobs will no doubt come up in the future. I do thank everyone here for their input, both regarding painting and clear coating.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Be thankful that the other painters are getting the job for $350, or so he says. By the way, what did he say was their plan of attack?
Two full days would not have been enough if you were going to strip, sand, stain, seal, and finish in IMHO, so consider this a gift from the Paint God's.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I totally get it, but to me the beauty in those doors is the stain glass and the over all architecture. I think they will look fantastic either way. Plus, I'm painting over oak and other varnished wood cabinets all the time. It's a sin, but it's so IN right now...I can't believe someone doing this for tree fitty though! ugh. They're gonna botch it for sure.


Holland said:


> From now on, the owner can tell people "underneath the paint is really beautiful wood".


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I totally get it, but to me the beauty in those doors is the stain glass and the over all architecture. I think they will look fantastic either way. Plus, I'm painting over oak and other varnished wood cabinets all the time. It's a sin, but it's so IN right now...I can't believe someone doing this for tree fitty though! ugh. They're gonna botch it for sure.


*In the end, the customer is always right. * 
They wanted the doors painted.


I worked in Stained Glass for a number of years, a lifetime ago, makes me nostalgic. *Stained Glass has color, a window with clear glass is often referred to as a "leaded window".


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*I like wood also*



finishesbykevyn said:


> I totally get it, but to me the beauty in those doors is the stain glass and the over all architecture. I think they will look fantastic either way. Plus, I'm painting over oak and other varnished wood cabinets all the time. It's a sin, but it's so IN right now...I can't believe someone doing this for tree fitty though! ugh. They're gonna botch it for sure.


Don't get me wrong. I love the look of properly finished wood, but sometimes it needs to be maintained properly, which I know is not going to happen with these doors.

In 2013 I did a job scraping and sanding interior window sills that were varnished. All sills but one were on the north side and the one was on the east side. I tried to tell the owner to let me paint these as it was just a rental, but she wanted them clear coated with whatever. I did just that and they looked great. I used McCloskey’s Man – O – War Marine Spar Varnish. When I worked on the house last year getting it ready for sale, the sills looked as good as when I had finished them in 2013. These sills did not get much sun, so I was not surprised that they still looked good.

When I was in my 20s I lived with a bunch of guys. When one of them moved out he gave me his painted dresser. I found a small area where the paint had chipped off and discovered that it had mahogany veneer. I stripped and varnished this dresser back in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I am sitting in my bedroom looking at it right as I type and it is still beautiful. It also has had lots of protection from the elements and the sun. Those exterior doors will not fare as well, so why not just paint them?

Anyway, considering that the doors have been so poorly neglected at a house that is currently estimated to be worth 1,150,000.00 and all the interior woodwork is similarly stained and finished American cherry (or mahogany as some here have mentioned), I am not interested in working for someone who lives in such a house and is penny wise, but pound foolish.

Over the years I have found it interesting how people choose materials and articles that might be attractive, but are difficult to maintain. 

I think I have typed enough words.

futtyos


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