# Paint adhesion failure due to cleaning solution



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

I am getting ready to paint a condo that had a gnat infestation. THey left little specks all over, including the woodwork. I previously posted about these specks as being from cockroaches, but found out from management that the previous tenant had lots of plants and also lots of gnats.

The new owner, as per my recommendation, has washed the little gnat specks from the trim and doors. She says that she used Mrs. Meyers dish soap in a solution:

https://www.mrsmeyers.com/product/d...yqbWOm_4VOxgm4wHriErruYjosZkHKacaAqZ6EALw_wcB

The thought just came to me a few minutes ago about various cleaning solutions and paint adhesion. For example, my partner told me that his brother called him up to ask why the paint was running down the wall shortly after being rolled on and before drying. They figured out that it probably was because he cleaned the walls/trim with Fantastik. I have heard/read that some other cleaning solutions can cause adhesion problems if not properly rinsed off.

Anyone here have any experience with Mrs. Meyer products causing paint adhesion failure?

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> I am getting ready to paint a condo that had a gnat infestation. THey left little specks all over, including the woodwork. I previously posted about these specks as being from cockroaches, but found out from management that the previous tenant had lots of plants and also lots of gnats.
> 
> The new owner, as per my recommendation, has washed the little gnat specks from the trim and doors. She says that she used Mrs. Meyers dish soap in a solution:
> 
> ...



I know my mom uses it because it leaves hands 'soft' ie it has oils in it that are left behind.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

futtyos said:


> I am getting ready to paint a condo that had a gnat infestation. THey left little specks all over, including the woodwork. I previously posted about these specks as being from cockroaches, but found out from management that the previous tenant had lots of plants and also lots of gnats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would not trust painting over it. I would relearn with Dirtex or something similar. My gut would tell me that it might fail...but I tend to worry a lot about things like this.

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

I've never heard of Mrs.Meyer's dish soap until now. I know paint doesn't like to adhere to cleaners like 409 or Fantastic.
As Pete said Dirtex or Soilax will clean without rinsing and I've never had an adhesion problem using them.
P.S, I guess Soilax is no longer manufactured.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Don't see it as much anymore, but the older generation (I'm talking about people I painted for in the 70s and 80s that were 50 or older back then) often used Murphy's Oil Soap to clean. Paint (especially latex) does not adhere well to the residue left bend by MOS. Many times that residue could be found on trim throughout the home. It got me into the habit of always wiping trim with mineral spirits before painting, even though I always used SI oil for trim.

So I would add MOS to your list if it's not already on it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I had one wall last week where the paint totally separated. It was a wall where we took massive drapes down, so I think it may have been some kind of stain repellent on the drapes, as it was only this wall. We washed the rest of the walls afterwards, but I had painted half of the drape wall when I noticed, then cleaned the second half, and it still separated on that half ,but not the rest of the walls.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Don't see it as much anymore, but the older generation (I'm talking about people I painted for in the 70s and 80s that were 50 or older back then) often used Murphy's Oil Soap to clean. Paint (especially latex) does not adhere well to the residue left bend by MOS. Many times that residue could be found on trim throughout the home. It got me into the habit of always wiping trim with mineral spirits before painting, even though I always used SI oil for trim.
> 
> So I would add MOS to your list if it's not already on it.


The newer generation uses MOS too, sometimes resulting in catastrophic adhesion loss when recoating/refinishing, particularly with hardwood flooring and vertical wood surfaces. 

I specifically included in my contracts that clear wood finishes are not to be cleaned or maintained with MOS, Pledge, Endust, et al, so at some point in time the finished surfaces can receive a quick & relatively inexpensive maintenance coat to rejuvenate the finish without involving a complete strip/refinish.

One instance of catastrophic adhesion loss involved a client taking possession of an unfinished home for 2 weeks while the floor finishes were in process. I had to hold off on applying the final coat until the client vacated, and follow recoat protocol on the final coat due to the 48 hr intercoat window lapsing which would not be detrimental in itself to adhesion with the finish being applied, yet would require a lot more prep to attain a good mechanical bond rather than a chemical bond. 

For that reason the builder was specifically reminded several times to clean the floors with nothing but a microber mop dampened with water, and not to use MOS, Pledge, Endust, et al. 

Upon the client vacating the home after a 2 week stay, and proceeding with the final coat, I noticed an oily/smudgy residue on the floors. I asked the builder what was used to clean the floors. He told me water as specified. I immediately called BS and searched the house high and low, finding a half spent “case” of Endust in the mechanical rm with a charge receipt made out to his company taped to the box. I “think” Endust contains paraffin oil. There was also a half spent bottle of MOS. I aggressively slammed the half spent case of Endust and MOS at the builder’s feet along with the receipt. He admitted to lying, having directed his laborers to use Endust & Murphy’s on the floors and all the millwork.

I ended up cleaning the floors with mineral spirits followed by a water soluble floor prep cleaner, maroon padding and intercoat sanding. When running the final coat, the finish immediately started developing fisheyes, ultimately resulting in failure due to adhesion loss, the onus of the failure falling on the builder and HO for not heeding the wording of the contract. The initial floor finishing contract was upwards $50K. 

I think I recall reading something in a prior thread where Coco stated that MOS, Pledge, and other similar cleaners and polishes should be banned for similar reasons.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> The newer generation uses MOS too, sometimes resulting in catastrophic adhesion loss when recoating/refinishing, particularly with hardwood flooring and vertical wood surfaces.
> 
> I specifically included in my contracts that clear wood finishes are not to be cleaned or maintained with MOS, Pledge, Endust, et al, so at some point in time the finished surfaces can receive a quick & relatively inexpensive maintenance coat to rejuvenate the finish without involving a complete strip/refinish.
> 
> ...



If california can ban dentaured alcohol for retail sale they can surely get around to at least putting a warning label on pledge.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Ish Kabibble! :O

futtyos!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> Ish Kabibble! :O
> 
> futtyos!


You've been watching The Hunters, huh? Me too!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Looking at the ingredients, I wouldn't trust the Mrs. Meyer product as a surface preparation for painting, unless it was completely rinsed with warm water. there are better emulsifying products designed to not leave a film.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Time between clean and rinse*



CApainter said:


> Looking at the ingredients, I wouldn't trust the Mrs. Meyer product as a surface preparation for painting, unless it was completely rinsed with warm water. there are better emulsifying products designed to not leave a film.


The HO cleaned various areas of trim and doors about a week ago. Do you think I can still just rinse off with hot water and sponge or should I use Dirtex or the one that is a blue powder (I forget what it is called)?

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> The HO cleaned various areas of trim and doors about a week ago. Do you think I can still just rinse off with hot water and sponge or should I use Dirtex or the one that is a blue powder (I forget what it is called)?
> 
> futtyos


I'd be inclined to use a basic cleanser like Jasco No-Rinse TSP on all surfaces to be painted, followed with a very light scuff and a good waterborne trim paint.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> The HO cleaned various areas of trim and doors about a week ago. Do you think I can still just rinse off with hot water and sponge or should I use Dirtex or the one that is a blue powder (I forget what it is called)?
> 
> futtyos


futty, just bring in a power washer and have at it!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Not anymore!*



Brushman4 said:


> futty, just bring in a power washer and have at it!


The last interior job I did like that turned out to be a disaster!

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This is definitely a painting forum.


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## deadend (Aug 1, 2013)

...when in doubt always wash...the embarrassment of being bitten stings every day...prep is what separates us from amateurs...


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> The last interior job I did like that turned out to be a disaster!
> 
> futtyos


Extrapolate, please!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> Extrapolate, please!


Extrapolate I did, and way too much!

futtyos


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

I use their cleaning products & while I haven’t painted over anything after using it I can say it doesn’t leave a film of any kind behind (even on granite) so I’d imagine it shouldn’t be much of an issue as long as it was a weak solution or rinsed.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PPD said:


> I use their cleaning products & while I haven’t painted over anything after using it I can say it doesn’t leave a film of any kind behind (even on granite) so I’d imagine it shouldn’t be much of an issue as long as it was a weak solution or rinsed.


You used whose cleaning products? You do realize that granite is not that absorptive at least in the short run.
And finally, never take marble for granite!


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Brushman4 said:


> You used whose cleaning products? You do realize that granite is not that absorptive at least in the short run.
> 
> And finally, never take marble for granite!




Haha marble for granite...ur so punny .

Mrs. Meyers cleaning products (from OP) but ya the granite isn’t porous like marble but is a b*tch to clean off when the product leaves any kinda film behind...assumed thats what was being asked since its an adhesion problem


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I would be quoting to wash everything down and rinse with eco tsp regardless. You never know what someone has done..plus a light sand.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> The last interior job I did like that turned out to be a disaster!
> 
> futtyos


Just joking futty!:biggrin:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Horrors!*



Brushman4 said:


> Just joking futty!:biggrin:


I'm not! I will never do that again! :sad:

futtyos


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