# Client Expectations for sprayed trim



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm new to spraying, those who have been following my recent threads already know that. 

I have been doing a lot of practicing after work and on the weekends with my hvlp. I don't think I could honestly charge a client for spray work unless I felt confident in my ability to deliver. 

Unless specified by the client, what level of finish do you guys with a lot of field experience typically produce by default?

To ask another way, at what level do you feel good enough about your work to walk away for a sprayed trim job. 

I find it hard to believe that on a typical new paint that everyone is walking away leaving a 100% flawless cabinet grade finish on trim packs. Not that I'm saying that is needed or possible most of the time. 

Is anything sprayed that looks better than a brushmark laden handy man special good enough for the average customer? If not what percent of say flawless cabinet/furniture grade do you guys shoot for?


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

NC we vacuum, grab the compressor hose and blow out under baseboards, vacuum again floors and trim, tack cloth, vacuum, lay floor covering. We sand bare wood, prime, hole flii, sand, caulk, wipe with tack cloth, first coat, sand 400 grit, tack cloth, spray 2nd coat.

Occupied homes we usually don't spray in. Kitchen cabinets we do and same way as adove minus the vac and comprossor.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I just ordered a new flat tip for our Graco 395FP, Over $300  dollars. But the finish you get is worth it.


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Most normal people have reasonable expectations: feels smooth, looks, good, no runs. Can't get better than that. Each product produces its own unique finish, some are better at leveling out, atomizing, melting side sprays into just sprayed areas, etc. You can only be as good as the product will let you.


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> I just ordered a new flat tip for our Graco 395FP, Over $300  dollars. But the finish you get is worth it.


No way. I just bought a G15 and was looking at extra tips. You can get the Double orifice flat tips for about $65 and the regular ones for $40. The little filter for the tip is pricey though. I just bought a pack of 10 for $50.

EDIT: just bought an AAF412 for $46 on ebay, 5 left


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Maybe you'll get good with enough practice, but it's been the experience of most here that it's tough to get good results spraying acrylic enamels through an HVLP without thinning the product to the point of affecting it's integrity.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Sayn3ver, a new home's millwork should look as good as possible. It should feel smooth or slick even. You want just short of a automotive finish (less sheen likely) but with wood and this is very possible with an airless sprayer and easier to achieve with an airless too. You can go to town hitting all angles including upside down all while everything stays wet. Use a 410 graco Rac X housing/tip, learn to move gun quickly with some overlap. Use fine filters in pump and gun. Use a strainer/bucket for pump.

Also, quality is mostly in the prep and attention to detail and your processes, sanding grit (220 best, and worn 220), sanding marks, prep work, quality of vacuum work. (i use a 2.5" dust brush in my left hand, working very close to the 2.5" round brush attachment on my vacs, I use that for inside corners and then switch to scrubbing the flat surfaces but not scratching, with the vac attachment as I go.

I use vacuum bags inside the vac, that pre-filter before the reg filter and catch everything. Saves a ton of time and mess (from dumping canister or cleaning regular filter so often) and gives better results. 

You probably already know about side lighting your work to check it's smoothness during prep, priming, sanding primer, spraying and finish stages. Not just good light, but a low light coming across work into your line of sight. Bright work lights can sometimes obscure the detail you need to see when sanding or lacquer putttying (fine red filler).


----------



## 007 Dave (Jun 22, 2016)

The HVLP might be your problem. I made that expensive mistake myself. I went to a lunch S.W. had and they had a Titan rep. demoing a capspray. The guy made it look so easy. and I even tried it and it worked good then. He was using promar 200. He did thin it, But I don't know houw much. It came out nice though. Once I bought my HVLP I can't get the results the demo guy got without thinning to the paint to much. And Like RH said The integrity of the paint is not there.I finally gave up and bought a 440 and never plugged in my capspray again. Maybe someday when I retire I can open a spray tan both in my garage. and make the money to cover the HVLP purchase. 
Sayn3ver, What paint are you using in your HVLP?


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

In addition to the above, a quality caulk job is required for a sweet outcome to millwork and cabinets. Best to leave a nice smooth bead, but not a tiny invisible bead.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I am by no means a fabulous spray applicator, but I have sprayed many paints and coatings on a variety of surfaces and architecture. Here's what I've learned:

1. The fan size has a lot to do with the finish

2. Conventional setups give the applicator more control on more complicated architecture, but airless is king on flat surfaces

3. Lightly spray all the nooks and crannies before laying off a full spray

4. When the manufacturer recommends no thinning, you'll likely have orange peeling.

5. Automotive paints are so thin they naturally give you a glossy smooth finish. But that's how they're designed.

6. As long as you don't leave curtains, runs, fish eyes, flashing, holidays, or wavy build up, today's coatings and paints will look passable, even though they may not look like a lacquered Baby Grand.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

As with all paint work, proper prep is the key. If you skimp on the primer/prep part, your finish will always be subpar. When spraying for a fine finish, prep is everything. Assuming the prep is well done, the other factor is the type of finish paint used. Cheap stuff won't look as well as quality material, no matter how well it's applied.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good masking also helps with the sprayed finish. A crisp line between a glossy cabinet and adjacent textile, can enhance an observers appreciation for the paint job, while diverting any discrepencies that may exist with a slightly orange peeled finish.


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

The expectations of a "high-end" paint job vs. average paint job boils down to the amount of surface preparation.

At the most basic level nail holes and large dings are filled. At the high-end you'll side light everything and fill even minor dings and scratches and extensively sand everything.

The finish of the paint should be similar for both, but at the high-end minor defects in the finish have to be addressed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks guys for the input. I side light all my work, even spot filling a repaint. Makes it real easy to spot issues. 
I've grown fond of the red glazing putty. 

My question was less about the prep required. I'm familiar with that. 

More so, at least with my hvlp trials, if you get some orange peel on say the inside corner of the door stop, or you accidentally spray into drying paint in the last corner of a room full of crown, do you go back and sand and fix or do you know most won't notice and walk away. 

I know this was a very "depends on the client and the job" question. But we all have an internal sense of pride. Or at least I do and the guys I work with do. I know I can get a little ocd when I'm spotting a room or trim. The spraying factor just adds to the perfection required in prep because the sprayed film, at least with my hvlp is thinner than brushing, and there isn't any brush strokes to hide anything.

Touching up spraying is more of a hassle than pulling the brush back out and hitting a few spots which is why I wondered what level of finish do most shoot for.

Yea, id like all my work to look like high end furniture. Flawless. But then there is real life with time and money constraints


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Some here would serve the BS that they never settle for anything less than complete perfection everywhere. The reality is likely dependent on the size, location, and lighting of the flawed areas. Sometimes you just have to leave well enough alone.


----------



## AGpainting (Feb 24, 2015)

as some guys here already said, i would suggest you dont use an hvlp to do the trim in newly built custom home. 

if youre new to spraying id recommend you get a titan 440.

the thing that i find gets most guys that are new to spraying is overspray, so watch out for that. especially if you pain the doors without taking them off the frame and just replace the hinges. you need to be careful of the spraying order or you will end up with shadows.


----------



## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

I've been practicing on customers work since I started spraying. I carry a brush and quickly brush out spots I blasted too heavy, and babysit areas I think are going to run so I can flash dry them with a halogen lamp or my fancy cardboard fan. I've had to sand out curtains, shave off runs and rub out imperfections with denatured alcohol but every time, I get better and better.

It helps me a lot when I video myself so I can see my technique from a 3rd person point of view.


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

AngieM said:


> I've been practicing on customers work since I started spraying. I carry a brush and quickly brush out spots I blasted too heavy, and babysit areas I think are going to run so I can flash dry them with a halogen lamp or my fancy cardboard fan. I've had to sand out curtains, shave off runs and rub out imperfections with denatured alcohol but every time, I get better and better.
> 
> It helps me a lot when I video myself so I can see my technique from a 3rd person point of view.


Use a smaller tip than you think you will need or what the mfg calls for. 311 or 411 is the cats meow for any and all enamel trim for me.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Use a smaller tip than you think you will need or what the mfg calls for. 311 or 411 is the cats meow for any and all enamel trim for me.


I agree. Even after spraying for some time, I often find myself uncertain about the tip and fan sizes to use. And the reason is, I've followed the recommended tip sizes for products before with disasterous results. Because, too many job site variables altered what was specified in a likely controlled environment at a manufacuerer's lab. So as Mike suggests, start small because you can always add more material a lot easier than you can removing it.

Also, take the time to spray some sample boards with different tips, and measure the thickness while observing the characteristics. One thing that should not change about the manufacturer's recommendation, is the WFT. Find a way to achieve that without distorting the finish and you're goldy locks.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I stopped paying attention to the manufacturer's recommendations on tip sizes a long time ago. Don't know why they always seem to recommend sizes much larger than I would use.


----------



## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

I also have that expensive 395 Graco AAA. I feel like I'm cheating because a real painter can achieve the same finish with a regular airless. What's a girl to do?


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I've been shooting breakthrough. 10% water alttle less than 5% BM extender. It was the alcohol in the washer fluid that I feel was giving me film issues. 

I like the #4 fluid set. 

If I pick up an airless what products do you guys like? I think I'd go grab some msa and start experimenting. 

For strictly trim I've been through some of the old threads. At one point cashmere was pretty popular. I've seen some on here like solo as well. Aura has gotten the nod too a few times. 

Ideally quick block resistance is nice, easy to spray would be nice. I know a lot like advance but I don't think I'd ever be in the position to wait for advance to cure. 

Do you still thin or retard with an airless? I'd imagine orange peel is still an issue with some products.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

sayn3ver said:


> I've been shooting breakthrough. 10% water alttle less than 5% BM extender. It was the alcohol in the washer fluid that I feel was giving me film issues.
> 
> I like the #4 fluid set.
> 
> ...


Some info I can share for switching to airless: 
- no on cashmere, solo works but has a lesser quality finish and feel, Aura flows good but can be a disaster to spray and it will sag some time after you thought it might be okay.
- I used Insl-x cabinet coat successfully and found it very easy to spray, it dries in great time, it self levels great, feels, smooth. On the very rare run I got on the last job, I sanded it down to flush quite easily, so it sands good. 
- You should not have to sand finish paint between coats to smooth it or get rid of orange peel. If you do, sanding marks are likely to show in the finish. There will not be orange peel if you go through the motions with the gun right. Don't concentrate on the finish look while spraying, just don't go too slow with the gun or it will "pile up". 

- Do not thin most water bornes. You won't need to do that to eliminate orange peel. Between pro classic, advance, cabinet coat, dura poxy (which is pretty decent stuff) have not had orange peel with a 410 ff tip.

- Use 410 because it puts a nice thin amount on, just overlap some, putting 2- 3 quick passes. Gun should be a foot from surface to get a feathered look or finer spray.. Or get closer for a quicker, more direct spray and move gun slightly faster.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I have 2 pictures of 1coat of cabinet coat sprayed with a 410FF. Third pic is after two coats. No sanding in between coats.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> I stopped paying attention to the manufacturer's recommendations on tip sizes a long time ago. Don't know why they always seem to recommend sizes much larger than I would use.


I think part of the reason they recommend larger tips than we would use, is because they typically do not recommend thinning.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I think part of the reason they recommend larger tips than we would use, is because they typically do not recommend thinning.


Nothing to do with thinning or not thinning. 

Satin Impervo can said 517 tip, we all know that these instructions are pretty much non applicable unless your blasting walls, even then the 'ol Impervo would be flowing down those walls.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ridesarize said:


> Nothing to do with thinning or not thinning.
> 
> Satin Impervo can said 517 tip, we all know that these instructions are pretty much non applicable unless your blasting walls, even then the 'ol Impervo would be flowing down those walls.


Both alkyd and waterborne Satin Impervo TDS recommend airless tips between .011 and .015 at pressures between 1500 and 2500 psi. It doesn't mention fan width.

I was expecting to see a conventional tip recommendation, but I guess everything is geared towards airless these days.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Bigger orifice, bigger fan, more fluid, more overspray, more paint sales....? I'm pretty sure they don't care about the finish as much as they do about their sales....just a thought...


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

AngieM said:


> I also have that expensive 395 Graco AAA. I feel like I'm cheating because a real painter can achieve the same finish with a regular airless. What's a girl to do?


Keep cheatin'! (But I have the impression that you're a "real painter" Angie).


----------



## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Many products look great when sprayed, but it's also import that it looks great when it's brushed.

I've had experience using Advance, Solo, Breakthrough, Pro Classic (waterborne formula) and SW Water Borne Alkyd Urethane. 

For the last year I've been using SW Water Borne Alkyd Urethane for trim packs and cabinets. The finish is exceptional when I've sprayed it and it also brushes very well if you add the maximum amount of water per the data sheet. Here's a few shots of a trim pack I shot earlier this year. 




























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I use the "handcrafted" excuse to deflect any concerns about my brush marks. At the end of the day, the owner thinks they're getting a deal for such craftsmanship. I don't suggest new painters try this out the gate. It's taken years of practice to be convincing. Being old and of European heritage also helps.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I use the "handcrafted" excuse to deflect any concerns about my brush marks. At the end of the day, the owner thinks they're getting a deal for such craftsmanship. I don't suggest new painters try this out the gate. It's taken years of practice to be convincing. Being old and of European heritage also helps.


That's called thinning your sales pitch with a little old fashioned BS. 

My hat's off to ya, CA.:notworthy:


----------



## 007 Dave (Jun 22, 2016)

AngieM said:


> I also have that expensive 395 Graco AAA. I feel like I'm cheating because a real painter can achieve the same finish with a regular airless. What's a girl to do?


I second what Joe said. I would add it takes someone that cares enough to do what it takes to make your next job better than your last. That attitude takes a fair painter a good painter and then a great painter. Seems to me Angie that you have this quality. You go girl


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

CApainter said:


> I use the "handcrafted" excuse to deflect any concerns about my brush marks. At the end of the day, the owner thinks they're getting a deal for such craftsmanship. I don't suggest new painters try this out the gate. It's taken years of practice to be convincing. Being old and of European heritage also helps.


I know this is part of CA's "enough with overrating the craftsmanship of painting" posts, but I've been reading this thread and the whole time thinking I actually just prefer the look of a brushed on finish. Sprayed finishes (when done well!) look "factory." Cold, lifeless, boring, and machine-like. They have no soul. 

And I'm not talking about big, ugly, gloppy, and unruly brush marks. I'm talking about the hint of human hands done in such a way that the mind never thinks twice about it because it suggests there is still woodgrain under there.

From the "craft" side, I like doing it, true. But that's not even my point here. I prefer living a world of humans rather than machines. A world with soul. Some of you will likely roll your eyes and call that a wee-bit deep and goofy for a discussion about getting a nice finish onto trim. And that's cool. This is all just a matter of aesthetics and philosophies and "feelings." So to each his/her own.

And just to be clear, none of this is to say that there aren't very good reasons to spray some stuff too. It just depends.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Joe67 said:


> I know this is part of CA's "enough with overrating the craftsmanship of painting" posts, but I've been reading this thread and the whole time thinking I actually just prefer the look of a brushed on finish. Sprayed finishes (when done well!) look "factory." Cold, lifeless, boring, and machine-like. They have no soul.
> 
> And I'm not talking about big, ugly, gloppy, and unruly brush marks. I'm talking about the hint of human hands done in such a way that the mind never thinks twice about it because it suggests there is still woodgrain under there.
> 
> ...


My god, that's practically poetic! While I'd tend to agree for the most part, I'd be pretty picky about what customers I'd try and sell that story on. Some would likely shed a tear, where others would scowl and call you a con man.

Well written tho.


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Wildbill7145 said:


> My god, that's practically poetic! While I'd tend to agree for the most part, I'd be pretty picky about what customers I'd try and sell that story on. Some would likely shed a tear, where others would scowl and call you a con man.
> 
> Well written tho.


LOL. Long day that I capped off with a little beer & whiskey so I guess I was feeling inspired. I had also heard this story on the radio on the way home so it may have gotten me going!

I don't lay it on the customers. I just do it the way I do it. If someone asked me to give them the sprayed factory look, we have a nice Titan - which I certainly do break out when appropriate.


----------



## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

I spray 208 Ff or 207 regular on cabinet base and any trim, on doors usually 210 on cab doors 310 for regular doors. I have sprayed just about everything impervo,proclassic,cab coat,all sw indutrials. I thin all just a bit. I thin cover stain to get a great primer finish. Really cuts sanding down to just a scuff and vac.


----------

