# The power of Zinsser Gardz



## jack pauhl

Head over to my Flickr page (link in sig) and check out the most recent photos in my photostream. I'm on my iPhone so I'll edit this later to include more pics. 

What Gardz does is simply amazing to say the least. It does exactly what so many primers advertise they do by sealing and equalizing but fail to actually do it. 

Just another example of why I refuse to use wall primer of any kind.


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## JubJub

*Definitely a fan!*

I started using Guardz last year and I have rarely used regular primer on drywall since. Nothing can beat it on skimcoats, after wallpaper removal, or even small drywall repairs. I feel like it even strengthens the mud a bit and yields a slightly tougher surface as it penetrates. The difference it makes in sheen consistency is amazing too. I'm sold! :thumbup:


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## daArch

If you like Gardz, you'd LOVE the original - Draw-tite.

Unfortunately Scotch paint of Gardenia Calif has no workable distribution plans in the works. 

It's a shame. 

Zinsser dummied down the Draw-tite formula so as not to infringe on patent. After the big Z's offer to buy the formula was turned down, Z reverse engineered and produced the copy known a Gardz.


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## ligboozer

daArch said:


> Unfortunately Scotch paint of Gardenia Calif has no workable distribution plans in the works.
> 
> It's a shame.


 

But they do sell it in China. Weird.

Were you using it for sealing before paper, or did you use it for painting as well?


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## daArch

It didn't exist when I was still painting.

It is great to seal JC and most importantly, to penetrate and seal builders flat, which will not hold up under wallpaper.


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## ROOMINADAY

JP - Would you recommend the 2 parts flat to 1 part Gardz for all ceilings including new drywall? I have a difficult one right now...My own! - it's just under 8 feet with 2 widows shinning light from both directions. I should have level 5'ed it but, level 4 smooth..... It is primer failure a far as I am concerned.


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## jack pauhl

ROOMINADAY said:


> JP - Would you recommend the 2 parts flat to 1 part Gardz for all ceilings including new drywall? I have a difficult one right now...My own! - it's just under 8 feet with 2 widows shinning light from both directions. I should have level 5'ed it but, level 4 smooth..... It is primer failure a far as I am concerned.


Jeff, I'd have to see what you have to make any suggestion for your ceiling.

Obviously Gardz is not capable of making bad work look good, in fact, what you think is good might expose areas that need addressed after Gardz is applied, more so than paint might ever expose. This happened on the job we are using the mix on. But not only that, the ceiling in the photo has a large piece of drywall missing where the plumbers are still hooking up the tub on the upper floor. Our 2 part mix will be used to seal up the new drywall work when they finish it. 

What makes you think its a primer failure? Does it have an inconsistent look about it?? Dry or dull areas even in a flat finish?


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## jack pauhl

I'm working on a rather long article about finishing smooth flat ceilings and my perspective on how to do it in a failsafe manor regardless of size.

The ceiling in the photo is 40' x 18' left to right and its 40' x 18' from window on the left to behind me where I took the photo.

This is a massive area to wet edge but Gardz will give you 1 shot at doing it. After your finish coat of flat is applied over Gardz then you are at the mercy of the flat you applied and how well it coats over itself for your final result should you need a 2nd coat. 

You will always start better off with Gardz over traditional primers because Gardz seals and locks down the surface so your 1st coat dries on the surface rather than some of it getting absorbed into a primer coat, mud, or drywall for example. Think of it like painting a piece of formica and what that might be like minus the gloss of formica. Strictly in a non-absorbing way.

My suggestion is 1 Gardz, 1 finish but I realize not everyone will be able to pull that off so a 2nd top coat might be necessary.


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## daArch

I always try to caution people about mixing unknowns together. We aren't chemists and we do not know what resins are used in different products and how they will mix with other products. 

All we can do is to experiment, and sometimes those experiments, if done on a customer's house may not be the best idea. This is my experiment mixing Gardz with 123, which others told me was fine, since they are both from the Big Z and use the same resins

So, you gotta ask yourself one question, do you feel lucky? 









Well, do ya, punk?


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## jack pauhl

Yep its definitely experimental any time you mix two products and I have not mixed Gardz with enough flat product or primers to know about further compatibility unknowns. Glad you posted your experience with 123.

The only reason we did a mix was because its overhead.

Thanks Bill. What was under that coat? Is that drywall, mud or other?


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## daArch

Plaster skim coat. 

As I said, others have mixed Gardz and 123 together with no ill effects, and some mix Gardz and Shieldz (Shardz) with great results. 

Me? Not so great results.


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## Schmidt & Co.

daArch said:


> Gardz and Shieldz (Shardz)


LOL :thumbup::thumbup:


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## sage

daArch said:


> If you like Gardz, you'd LOVE the original - Draw-tite.
> 
> Unfortunately Scotch paint of Gardenia Calif has no workable distribution plans in the works.
> 
> It's a shame.
> 
> Zinsser dummied down the Draw-tite formula so as not to infringe on patent. After the big Z's offer to buy the formula was turned down, Z reverse engineered and produced the copy known a Gardz.


I am a big fan of Draw Tite, haven't ordered any lately. I usually get a few gallons when I order "Safe & Simple" Wallpaper remover solution, that's a great product too.
Sage


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## Wolfgang

daArch said:


> Plaster skim coat.
> 
> As I said, others have mixed Gardz and 123 together with no ill effects, and some mix Gardz and Shieldz (Shardz) with great results.
> 
> Me? Not so great results.


Plaster will play heck with quite a few primers and top coats. Been there, done that.


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## ROOMINADAY

jack pauhl said:


> Jeff, I'd have to see what you have to make any suggestion for your ceiling.
> 
> Obviously Gardz is not capable of making bad work look good, in fact, what you think is good might expose areas that need addressed after Gardz is applied, more so than paint might ever expose. This happened on the job we are using the mix on. But not only that, the ceiling in the photo has a large piece of drywall missing where the plumbers are still hooking up the tub on the upper floor. Our 2 part mix will be used to seal up the new drywall work when they finish it.
> 
> What makes you think its a primer failure? Does it have an inconsistent look about it?? Dry or dull areas even in a flat finish?


TSK TSK Bad work...

Should this be a new thread? Here we go..

I used BM WB EcoSpec primer as I used to use SuperSpec or PPG 6-2 in NC. I did not have any NC since they dis-continued SS here until recently so I tried this for the 1st time in my own house. We sprayed the primer (new 440i and new to spraying) fairly consistent and back-rolled as everyone had suggested. We may have waited too long in the large room? Small rooms are perfect.

Then we sprayed and back rolled 2 coats of EcoSpec Flat for the finish. I think we went a little heavy on the 2nd coat in a few areas and got a little more roller texture in some areas. In any event at this point you could see every drywall joint flashing even with even roller stipple pattern.

Anyways...I sanded the heck out it, and rolled and cut it, sanded again, cut and rolled with WB ECO again. The WB EcoSpec is almost like an Eggshell finish in my "lowish" basement ceiling and it is showing everything almost the same as when we sprayed. 

This is why I think its partly primer, partly paint. It is 24' x 20', the windows are 10" from the ceiling in both directions. 

I am going to hit it with a coat of BM WB FLAT Ceiling paint this weekend so I can finish it. I have crown up so it is not affecting my walls. 

I have access to BM, PARA and PPG. Para ceiling paints are terrible imo, dry's as soon as it hits the ceiling and is impossible to keep a wet edge. I also dislike Speedhide Flat just as much for similar reasons.

The WB EcoSpec is like an MPI Level 2/3 for sheen, it is not very flat IMO. I just painted a NC bathroom ceiling with WB Natura Flat, same sheen as WB Eco. Small rooms, the sheen has been no issue. I have repainted a ton of ceiling's with WB Eco, just not this large and short!

Here comes the beating......


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## jack pauhl

Jeff, it does sound like part paint part primer but the fact you can see flashing means primer failed to seal the porosity of the mud to be equal to the board.

You mentioned small rooms are fine. Maybe not? Hop up on a step ladder and inspect the ceiling from higher ground. The contractor I am working with said the same thing as if the smaller rooms were immune to the failure. He got up on a ladder and took a look across the ceiling from different spots. Sure enough. Lighting plays such a huge role. Most of these bad ceilings I posted pics of look great certain parts of the day but all of them show tell tale signs of primer failure. All of them show joint photographing. 

Take a look at this pic below. Believe it or not, with all the primer and all the flat paint we applied to it, each and every mudded area shows through the finish. Those striped patches stand out like a sore thumb. Looks like stripes running through the finish. The SW rep was out and his verdict was um.. he didnt see anything wrong with any of it. Not even from the 2nd pic either.


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## PPG Guy

Gardz is GREAT for sealing popcorn ceiling texture for repaints. Put it in a pump sprayer, or airless at low pressure, and coat the texture. Hardens it right up.


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## Capt-sheetrock

jack pauhl said:


> Jeff, it does sound like part paint part primer but the fact you can see flashing means primer failed to seal the porosity of the mud to be equal to the board.
> 
> You mentioned small rooms are fine. Maybe not? Hop up on a step ladder and inspect the ceiling from higher ground. The contractor I am working with said the same thing as if the smaller rooms were immune to the failure. He got up on a ladder and took a look across the ceiling from different spots. Sure enough. Lighting plays such a huge role. Most of these bad ceilings I posted pics of look great certain parts of the day but all of them show tell tale signs of primer failure. All of them show joint photographing.
> 
> Take a look at this pic below. Believe it or not, with all the primer and all the flat paint we applied to it, each and every mudded area shows through the finish. Those striped patches stand out like a sore thumb. Looks like stripes running through the finish. The SW rep was out and his verdict was um.. he didnt see anything wrong with any of it. Not even from the 2nd pic either.


 Jack, pic #2 doesn't show paint failure, it shows roughed up drywall paper next to the joint compound. Paint it till your blue in the face, if you don't address the problem, you can't fix the problem.


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## jack pauhl

Captn, look closer.. what you see is mud type 1 applied and mud type 2 applied down the center of mud 1 over two days. That is both muds flashing differently.


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## Capt-sheetrock

jack pauhl said:


> Captn, look closer.. what you see is mud type 1 applied and mud type 2 applied down the center of mud 1 over two days. That is both muds flashing differently.


 I beg to differ jack,,,, pic #1 shows that the job was sanded with a PC power sander, pic #2 shows that it was painted without rectifying the problem. A PC WILL ruff the paper next to the joint (pic #2). I undestand that you are way more experienced than I am at painting,, but you have got to grasp the concept of the PC sander and the effects it leaves on the drywall. No disrespect intended, but your missing the problem here, and its gonna drive ya crazy till ya do.


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## jack pauhl

Sorry my bad, pic 1 is a closet and pic 2 with the blue walls is a bedroom.


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## jack pauhl

*Finished pics*

This is the finished ceiling after we started over with Gardz. This is one coat of Sherwin Williams 400 flat over Gardz.


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## Bender

Pretty impressive.


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## jack pauhl

Rolling flat over the 2:1 Gardz mix was fairly good as far as being workable for long periods of time. Not like rolling over straight Gardz but still similar to rolling flat over eg. If I were to do this all over again. I would opt for a 1:1 mix instead because of the 40' run. Otherwise the 2:1 was fine for 20' areas easy.

All went smooth, gotta like when things go as planned. :thumbsup:


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## straight_lines

That does look nice JP.


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## DHlll

daArch said:


> I always try to caution people about mixing unknowns together. We aren't chemists and we do not know what resins are used in different products and how they will mix with other products.
> 
> All we can do is to experiment, and sometimes those experiments, if done on a customer's house may not be the best idea. This is my experiment mixing Gardz with 123, which others told me was fine, since they are both from the Big Z and use the same resins
> 
> So, you gotta ask yourself one question, do you feel lucky?
> 
> View attachment 6629
> 
> 
> Well, do ya, punk?


First off this Gardz and mixing and reinventing the wheel really puzzles me. And those that drink the cool-aide on it as well. I have painted a thousand ceilings using tradtional high grade latex primer followed by BM Regal flat of Muresco and never ever ever had a flash or "problem" like you claim.----weird.
Anyway daArch,
Your problem here wasnt necessarily the mixing(although it did help) But when you prime plaster skim coat or any type of plaster, you need a primer that is alkali resistant. The lime in plaster causes adhesion problems. Always prime with something like inslu-x aqualock, or any high grade latex masonary primer.


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## DHlll

and the pictures are not even the same room from the first shots.....what are you showing? looks like flat white ceilings.................whoaaaaaa look kids a flat white ceiling rolled out with a 3/8in rollers.....and he even kept the edges wet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jack pauhl

DHlll said:


> and the pictures are not even the same room from the first shots.....what are you showing? looks like flat white ceilings.................whoaaaaaa look kids a flat white ceiling rolled out with a 3/8in rollers.....and he even kept the edges wet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No the before photos are on the flickr page like mentioned in the 1st post. I posted some other pics from the same job.

I do have to say many painters say the same things you said about painting all these ceilings for years and years without a single problem. The PC on this job said the same thing but I suggested we apply Gardz over the bare drywall prior to doing anything with it because this sort of thing happens all the time. he chose not to because "never had a single problem before using primer". Obviously I predicted it will happen and I had a solution after it did. 

The funny thing is, another painter said the same thing to me, he said there wasnt an issue, I had to point it out. We had a bunch of rooms it looked fine in standing in the doorway. Do you think those rooms were immune to it or would you say its likely there but the lighting in those rooms keep you from seeing it. 

It was a 1/2" cover on an 18. Are you saying you painted thousands of ceilings with bare drywall using Regal or Muresco or are you talking about repaints?


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## DHlll

DHlll said:


> First off this Gardz and mixing and reinventing the wheel really puzzles me. And those that drink the cool-aide on it as well. I have painted a thousand ceilings using tradtional high grade latex primer followed by BM Regal flat of Muresco and never ever ever had a flash or "problem" like you claim.----weird.
> Anyway daArch,
> Your problem here wasnt necessarily the mixing(although it did help) But when you prime plaster skim coat or any type of plaster, you need a primer that is alkali resistant. The lime in plaster causes adhesion problems. Always prime with something like inslu-x aqualock, or any high grade latex masonary primer.


..........


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## DHlll

on the first page second picture...the way i see it is a bad tape job with a high build on the tape and not feathered out far enough...possibly sanding too much as well....then it is painted---> and no matter what you paint it with the light is directly reflecting off a hump...morning light, daylight, night light or halogen...you will see those humps. It you put a 6 foot level across that you will see the build from the tape job.. simple.


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## jsheridan

jack pauhl said:


> We had a bunch of rooms it looked fine in standing in the doorway. Do you think those rooms were immune to it or would you say its likely there but the lighting in those rooms keep you from seeing it.


No, not immune, if the substrate is the same and paint procedure is the same, all the ceilings will suffer the same. It's all about the light, the light, the light. Painting is all about playing tricks with light. Certain sidelighting at certain times of the day will kill you, and some lighting will not fall for your tricks, at all. But, in the small rooms, if you can't see it, does it matter? Painting is also about playing tricks on your eye.


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## danpaints

Doing a repaint with significant drywall repair and op texture due to water damage. will use go with the Gardz to sealer and uniformity. What do you suggest for the matching the texture to the 4 coats of paint on the existing op texture.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

danpaints said:


> Doing a repaint with significant drywall repair and op texture due to water damage. will use go with the Gardz to sealer and uniformity. What do you suggest for the matching the texture to the 4 coats of paint on the existing op texture.


I would have to see it. But that would hard to match. Sometimes is better to retexture the whole area.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Look into using Kilz Klear. price point is around $15 per gallon. You could save some money if your doing a whole house.


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## Jmayspaint

Is the Kilz clear real thin like Gardz is?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Jmayspaint said:


> Is the Kilz clear real thin like Gardz is?


Yes Josh. Same deal


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## Mrlaroo

Jack- what primer did you first use that gave you those crummy results in the pictures? You said a SW guy came out to look at it so my guess is their PVA. Any of you guys use Rodda Scotseal?


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## chrisn

Mrlaroo said:


> Jack- what primer did you first use that gave you those crummy results in the pictures? You said a SW guy came out to look at it so my guess is their PVA. Any of you guys use Rodda Scotseal?


 
Jack was here 3 years ago


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## slinger58

chrisn said:


> Jack was here 3 years ago


Step up, chrisn. You be Jack.:jester:


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## Mrlaroo

LOL I usually forget to check the post date, so I take it he does not lurk around here anymore?


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## slinger58

Mrlaroo said:


> LOL I usually forget to check the post date, so I take it he does not lurk around here anymore?


Lol. You've been here longer than me, Mrlaroo. You need to check in more often.

Of course, you may be young and have a life other than work and PT!:thumbsup:


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## chrisn

slinger58 said:


> Step up, chrisn. You be Jack.:jester:


 
no thank, we had a past history and it was not good:no:


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## danpaints

rent a painter said:


> i would have to see it. But that would hard to match. Sometimes is better to retexture the whole area.










































These are pre- mud and texture pics. Plan on using some high build on the repairs sandwhiched with sealer. Top coat whole wall with sealer and then two coats of cashmere.


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## 804 Paint

Do we have a known safe mixture here? I'm curious to know if anyone has found a mix that has not failed in any way. I've seen some mix 123 with it but seems that didn't turn out so well for daArch.


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## kdpaint

804 Paint said:


> Do we have a known safe mixture here? I'm curious to know if anyone has found a mix that has not failed in any way. I've seen some mix 123 with it but seems that didn't turn out so well for daArch.


Mixing other products with Gardz? Why? Just have the paint store throw 2 oz of whatever colorant floats your boat. It's Zinsser approved. I usually throw some white in there, it makes it pretty opaque.


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## 804 Paint

kdpaint said:


> Mixing other products with Gardz? Why? Just have the paint store throw 2 oz of whatever colorant floats your boat. It's Zinsser approved. I usually throw some white in there, it makes it pretty opaque.


Fine by me. Just want to see where I am a bit better since it goes on clear. Thanks.


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## gaugin

Has anyone noticed strange arthritis type pain after painting with gardz? A coworker and I painted a room with poor ventilation with gardz and a month later, we're both experiencing painful hip arthritis for the first times in our lives, and I'm a young guy.


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## CApainter

gaugin,

The ZG SDS doesn't show anything remarkable concerning hazards, or toxicity. There is a section under respiratory protection that recommends the use of a respirator (probably APR at least, and supply air at best) when there is poor ventilation.

Question: Were you spraying?

I personally have not experienced any symptoms when using GARDZ.


The following is a link to Zinsser GARDZ SDS- CHEMMATE3416.pdf (zinsserdirect.co.uk)


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## Susan

Clean your walls and change the heat signature of your lightbulbs. There is no simple answer for your question. Achieving what you are attempting would be virtually impossible for any professional as the results would be at best subjective to the viewer. I stand to be corrected.
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Nooooooooo


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