# to prime or not to prime?



## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

I have a job coming up next week that involves spraying a solid stain onto what I believe to be red cedar shingles. The house is only 14months old, so it is possible the shingles are mostly untreated... except maybe a basic clear stain.

I had estimated that I would need to spray a coat of primer, and then spray 2 coats of the stain they choose (General Paint platinum 10 year warranty stain, in a deep base (greenish colour). 

However, when I was at GP I was told if I was using a deep base stain then priming the shingles was unnecessary because bleed through would not be seen unless it was clear/white base. 

Unfortunately I really just don't know... any suggestions?

Obviously not priming would save some in material cost/time, however I had accounted for it via the quote I gave them.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm not sure about "red" cedar shingles, but... the standard cedar will take a solid stain without bleeding with no problem. I used SW WoodScapes, 2 coats without a primer. The stain was a lighter color and to this day there is no bleed through. As long as the shingles are prep'd right, I don't see why you would have a problem just using the stain alone.


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

If you are using a latex stain I would defenitely prime first. Tint the primer and go with one coat over that. I would aslo back brush. Use a good oil primer that will block the tanin.


----------



## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not sure about "red" cedar shingles, but... the standard cedar will take a solid stain without bleeding with no problem. I used SW WoodScapes, 2 coats without a primer. The stain was a lighter color and to this day there is no bleed through. As long as the shingles are prep'd right, I don't see why you would have a problem just using the stain alone.


In this case what would constitute "prep'd" right? They were pressure washed. Does the surface need to be sanded first?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Cedar likes to breathe, I would not encourage any oil primers. I have only used WoodScapes and successfully. The last time I used oil primer on cedar, I top coated with Duration to follow and the whole thing pealed like a freaking banana.... It wasn't Duration that caused the problem, it was the oil primer... IMHO, No oil primer... Straight up 2 coats of stain with appropriate prep (wash down and brightener).


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Dunbar Painting said:


> In this case what would constitute "prep'd" right? They were pressure washed. Does the surface need to be sanded first?


I wouldn't sand cedar shingles... It isn't needed. 

If there is any existing stain, it would be best to remove it with a stain remover then follow with a brightener (Revive at SW). If there is no stain, then wash it down with a brightener to remove any old dead cedar and let dry like a week. Then 2 topcoats of stain.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

My experience is with normal cedar, not red cedar. I don't know why or how the process would be different, but I am unclear in this case....


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Cedar likes to breathe, I would not encourage any oil primers. I have only used WoodScapes and successfully. The last time I used oil primer on cedar, I top coated with Duration to follow and the whole thing pealed like a freaking banana.... It wasn't Duration that caused the problem, it was the oil primer... IMHO, No oil primer... Straight up 2 coats of stain with appropriate prep (wash down and brightener).


What type of oil primer did you use? I never had a problem.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Theres a whole lot of misinformation about cedar in this thread.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Theres a whole lot of misinformation about cedar in this thread.


Enlighten us! :notworthy: 

I'm only sharing my experience, that doesn't mean I am 100% correct or right.... Please, step up to the plate if you have a better solution. Just mentioning what you did, does not help.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Enlighten us! :notworthy:
> 
> I'm only sharing my experience, that doesn't mean I am 100% correct or right.... Please, step up to the plate if you have a better solution. Just mentioning what you did, does not help.


Jason

I just did a quick search of all the threads I have written about cedar in. I get sick of typing all the same info over and over. 

Heres one you may remember:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/i-started-insurance-claim-ho-4783/


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jason
> 
> I just did a quick search of all the threads I have written about cedar in. I get sick of typing all the same info over and over.
> 
> ...


Yup, never will forget that. :thumbsup: I learned a lot about cedar shake on that job. In the end, my correction of error was successful. That's why I find my experience is being a help here.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

But hey Vermont, if you have anything to say that would help the Dunbar, please feel free... We all could be reminded of the vast knowledge you have in this area. Seriously. I don't mind standing corrected if what I have said is misinformation. I would prefer that Dunbar get specific information and valued time out of his inquiry if what we need is for you to step in and help out. :yes:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jason

I believe you are trying to be helpful, but there is alot to cedar. Both white and red. 




[email protected] said:


> Cedar likes to breathe, I would not encourage any oil primers.
> 
> _This is not good advice_.
> 
> ...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> But hey Vermont, if you have anything to say that would help the Dunbar, please feel free... We all could be reminded of the vast knowledge you have in this area. Seriously. I don't mind standing corrected if what I have said is misinformation. I would prefer that Dunbar get specific information and valued time out of his inquiry if what we need is for you to step in and help out. :yes:


It has always been a pleasure to help you and all the members out on painttalk, and I received far more than I have given.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> My experience is with normal cedar, not red cedar. I don't know why or how the process would be different, but I am unclear in this case....


Cedar comes in two flavors. Red and white. There is no normal cedar. Red and white are two entirely different products with totally different finish approaches.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dunbar

I'm guessing that the red cedar shakes are rough side out, that is usually the case. You wouldnt need to sand. It would be a good idea to wash, as a matter of course. 

If the General stain that was spec-ed is an oil, you would not need or want to prime. If it is acrylic, I probably wouldnt prime either, especially in the color you describe, and on rough out. 

Heres an oldie that discusses some relevant issues:

http://www.painttalk.com/f6/stain-over-paint-2350/


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok I will bite this once. How can you give someone advice to not use Oil primer on shakes? Do the Job 1 Time and Do it right or go back and redo it when it bleeds . I always tend to not gamble with my money but hey do it however you want or call local paint store and ask what they reccomend on I bet untreated shakes.


----------



## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

Also, I am stupid for not reading the info on GP website:

http://www.generalpaint.com/catalogue/Product/Platinum-Ten-Year-Warranty-Stain.aspx

This is the product I am using, and it says clearly do not need to prime when using a stain that is not white.

Sorry for being lazy, and thanks for the help.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dbar

Hoping you will post progress pics and keep us updated on the project. Cedar projects are challenging and fun. Good luck.


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

Dunbar, I am sorry who sells that product? Did the homeowner spec that or the Gc?. Do you take your job serious? do you like to paint? do you think you do a quality job?Do you believe in the products you use? do you stand behind your paint job? and your products?. You know that if the products you use on any job FAIL warrantys only replace your materials. NOT YOUR labor.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Msargent said:


> Ok I will bite this once. How can you give someone advice to not use Oil primer on shakes?


Because oil primer is not needed. At least for the white shake I redid last year... two coats of Woodscapes... done! I go back periodically (the house is not that far away) to take a look. AND if there was an issue after this last application, I would know about it by now or anytime in the future. So far so good.

The oil primer wasn't needed because the shake was stripped down to new wood. Otherwise, oil primer isn't a bad idea if your going over another product that you could be unsure about. From what I understand a long curing primer is best for those kind of situations.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Because oil primer is not needed. At least for the white shake I redid last year... two coats of Woodscapes... done! I go back periodically (the house is not that far away) to take a look. AND if there was an issue after this last application, I would know about it by now or anytime in the future. So far so good.


:no:


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Msargent said:


> Ok I will bite this once. How can you give someone advice to not use Oil primer on shakes? Do the Job 1 Time and Do it right or go back and redo it when it bleeds . I always tend to not gamble with my money but hey do it however you want or call local paint store and ask what they reccomend on I bet untreated shakes.


I hate to say you are right on this one, I have learned the hard way, but it will allways be oil if I want to make a forsure seal between the tanning stain, and yes you you can make water base work, but it will take 4 coats to do it.


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

What ever works for you Jason. I am glad you got lucky and got paid, and the customer refers you to others.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> :no:


btw... SW's backs me up on this one... my paint rep suggested this process. And if it fails... Well, then it's their cost to redo it (paint and wages)... :thumbup: 

It really is working. It still looks like it did after the day I finished it... :thumbsup:

All is good.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> btw... SW's backs me up on this one... my paint rep suggested this process. And if it fails... Well, then it's their cost to redo it (paint and wages)... :thumbup:
> 
> It really is working. It still looks like it did after the day I finished it... :thumbsup:
> 
> All is good.


Why the hell not? Your rep bid the job for you in the first place! 

Are your rep and your insurance agent related? 

Get ready for another claim J-Man.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I also have to say that it really depends on what color you are staining or painting on weather you see tanning or not.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I have forgotten that you guys are pressing the tannin bleed issue... 


Yes, I do agree that oil primer is the best solution for that issue. Will the white cedar bleed through the woodscapes? Not sure. Only time will tell. As for adhesion which is where I was coming from, yeah it's a sure deal. Works great. 


Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Why the hell not? Your rep bid the job for you in the first place!
> 
> Are your rep and your insurance agent related?
> 
> Get ready for another claim J-Man.


Not true Neps.

Never had a claim to begin with, so can't have "another"....


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Not true Neps.
> 
> Never had a claim to begin with, so can't have "another"....


http://www.painttalk.com/f2/i-started-insurance-claim-ho-4783/


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

You also have to remember that oil is a two edged sword kinda, it will also hold in moisture and you can get bubbles. Not good!


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Why cant there be a perfect stain?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> http://www.painttalk.com/f2/i-started-insurance-claim-ho-4783/


I started it, but it never came about because I stopped it. I have no record of ins claims. I do have to laugh at that though... What was I thinking? LOL


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Why cant there be a perfect stain?


They are all perfect stains john... 

It's the applicators that mess them up.... come on! :whistling2: :jester:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

There are so many variables involved with the condition of white cedar that almost always a oil prime for proper adhesion and a bridge to latex is needed. IMO not using oil is cutting corners trying to save a few bucks. I oil prime all new cedar even if pre-primed stock.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Even though I say that, it is the only sure fire way to stop tanning


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

But if you are going to use a oil the cedar has to real dry.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> They are all perfect stains john...
> 
> It's the applicators that mess them up.... come on! :whistling2: :jester:


No Jason: If the was you could put it on in rain storm and all be fine.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> No Jason: If the was you could put it on in rain storm and all be fine.


Ahh so your definition of "perfect" includes doing the impossible... I get it.. :whistling2::no:


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

We live in the NW right?


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

All these yankees back east have all the good weather.


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

My local swp wont stand behind a warranty on some pre primed lumber because the pre primed stuff has been watered down/Thinned down so it wont even hold up.


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

John maybe your friend would be a moisture meter, I sure find they are handy tool!!


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Yeah, I have a good one also and if I use oil I do use one.If a guy thinks of oil as maybe applying a film of plastic wrap over the surface. Oil just does not let the moisture through at all, so in that you can get problems. Most of the problems you get with moisture is not due to wet wood, but moisture from the people living in the structure.


----------



## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

Come to my local lumber yard lol KD that will scare ya.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Msargent said:


> Come to my local lumber yard lol KD that will scare ya.


What is that like 18 percent?


----------



## paint guru (Jun 3, 2010)

*why prime*

I have cedar on my home and I used flood swf which is a oil primer and a latex stain all in one two coats only,no bleed


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

paint guru said:


> I have cedar on my home and I used flood swf which is a oil primer and a latex stain all in one two coats only,no bleed


You can have it.


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

I've always heard a slow drying alkyd primer is best for tanin bleed. I sw told me once that you can use woodscapes without a primer but should wait a few days or a week to second coat to prevent tanin. I've been using Cabots problem solver oil primer and had pretty good luck so far. If its preprime I just use woodscapes. I used preprite oil primer on some shakes that came in raw because they ran out prestain, went over it with woodscapes 6 years ago. It still looks good. I say oil primer on raw.


----------



## paint guru (Jun 3, 2010)

*just wondering*

Have you used the product. I have been using it for about 10 years has been great so far or have you a better choice for cedar siding .


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Booger is that you?


----------

