# thank you paint idiots!!!



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Sounds harsh, and am sure it does not apply to most here.

Started my 5th cedar exterior that was not primed in the last year. (or primed with latex) These failures have been great for my business. Additional prep work, followed by an alkyd based primer and two top coats have really made these jobs a profit producer.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about. Maybe that system works for you. Please continue using your system. It assures us a consistanly busy schedule.

Many thanks.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Well you know cedar Biker. It's not the bast material to hold paint.So many factors that can cause peeling on this stuff.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Well you know cedar Biker. It's not the bast material to hold paint.So many factors that can cause peeling on this stuff.


That's true. And sometimes you have moisture getting in from other sources. 

My favorite was last year. Cedar lap siding that had all the laps caulked tight. That stuff (latex stain) was jumping off.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I still stand by my methods, and guarantee that a product like acrylic woodscapes will last longer than oil primer will. In fact I just came back from a customer on the ocean front that I did five years ago, to bid a wash.

Only place I put oil on cedar is a knot that bleeds.

Siding still looks amazing, and they told me their neighbors were complaining about how they had to repaint already and they didn't.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I still stand by my methods, and guarantee that a product like acrylic woodscapes will last longer than oil primer will. In fact I just came back from a customer on the ocean that I did five years ago, to bid a wash.
> 
> Only place I put oil on cedar is a knot that bleeds.
> 
> Siding still looks amazing, and they told me their neighbors were complaining about how they had to repaint already and they didn't.


That's great! (knew I was stirring up a hornet's nest) 

Have just came across so many that have not lasted more than a few years and the one common denominator was no primer and latex products.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

The cedar siding I hate the most is the smooth as a babies butt cedar siding, it never hold paint.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> That's true. And sometimes you have moisture getting in from other sources.
> 
> My favorite was last year. Cedar lap siding that had all the laps caulked tight. That stuff (latex stain) was jumping off.


Ha...we talked about this before  Drove by that house a few weeks ago - already signs of major peeling! I am not touching it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> The cedar siding I hate the most is the smooth as a babies butt cedar siding, it never hold paint.


is it ok after sanding with 80 grit?


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## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

bikerboy said:


> Sounds harsh, and am sure it does not apply to most here.
> 
> Started my 5th cedar exterior that was not primed in the last year. (or primed with latex) These failures have been great for my business. Additional prep work, followed by an alkyd based primer and two top coats have really made these jobs a profit producer.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!!!! You don't know how much I argue this point with painters in my area!!! The ONLY type of primer that can hold back tannin acid bleed-through is a good quality exterior oil based primer (like cabot's problem solver). SO MANY GUYS are just so lazy to use an oil base because (bo-hu!!!) the cleanup. get some damn paint thinner for god's sake!!!! then let dry full 24-48 hours, then put a good quality 100% low lustre acrylic finish on (two-coats) stuff will last for years and years. Bu there's always gonna be people who say "Oh, water base primers can block tannins out, trust me." Yeah right.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I was always told that acrylic primer was better on cedar because it let it breath and oil would not so the pressure could cause the paint to pop off. I have never had problems using Fresh start acrylic and 2 coats of paint. I honestly think it does not matter. If it is new cedar a quality acrylic or oil plus two coats of premium paint and you will be fine.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Cedar can be tricky. Like john said, even if you do everything right it can still have problems. I try to get my customers to go with Sikkens Rubbol Siding Finish ( RSF ). It uses a modified acrylic resin ( so theres some oil in it ). It is also a breathable finish to help with moisture problems. Priming before using this product is actually doing it a disservice. At $33+/gal its not the cheapest product out there, and needs a double coat most of the time. BUT being able to skip priming, and not having to switch products, primer/paint or oil/latex is huge too.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

You also have to remember that it will even bleed from the back side of the cedar if water or heavy rain splashes upward and gets back side of the cedar wet and it weeps down on the painted area, it will look like its coming from the front. I always tell people never to let the sprinkler system spray against the outside of the house.Thus did happen to me once. I was in shock. I just told them I could not help that at all.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

NC paint the Modified Acylic is great stuff. you might as well throw your brushes away after you use that stuff, can't wash it out very good at all, or off your hands.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> NC paint the Modified Acylic is great stuff. you might as well throw your brushes away after you use that stuff, can't wash it out very good at all, or off your hands.


I always took that as a sign of a quality coating if I couldnt scrub it off my hands :thumbsup: They clean up decent, if you use a bit of dish soap, soak it and use a brush comb or wire brush.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

You know all the new paints are so hard on your brushes, it sucks.


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## baypainter (Jun 12, 2010)

Use a bit of paint thinner as a final wash will get your brush completely clean normally.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> You know all the new paints are so hard on your brushes, it sucks.


Its a conspiracy john, between the paint/brush manufacturers.....why else would SW keep buying brush manufacturers :shifty:


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

baypainter said:


> Use a bit of paint thinner as a final wash will get your brush completely clean normally.


That use to work to get the color out, but not the urethane stuff so much after it sets a little.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> That use to work to get the color out, but not the urethane stuff so much after it sets a little.


Simple solution to that.....WORK FASTER OLD MAN!! :jester: :thumbup:


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

But back to the cedar problems. I painted a cedar house last year that had been painted a dark brown color and they want it a mint green color. I knew it was going to be hard to cover the dark brown but the one thing that I didn't plain on so much was after the first coat of water base prime block, it blead all over, so because I started with water base primer I thought it best just to stay with it. It took like three coats of the stuff to calm it down.I learned my lesson on that one. Old cedar = bleeding, no if's and or buts.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Will the rubol acrylic hybrid hold back tannin bleed with no primer? That would surprise me. Then again, I have seen tannin bleed through 2 full oil prime and oil stain jobs on smooth side out cedar lap siding, so if cedar wants to bleed, it will find a way. And that was pretty clear cedar.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

John, did you pressure wash before you painted? Even if a cedar home is already painted, pressure washing can activate tannins because they are water soluble. IMO new cedar should be stained with transparent or semi transparent stain. Painting it is a sin, just like painting oak. If its already painted though, your options are limited


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Will the rubol acrylic hybrid hold back tannin bleed with no primer? That would surprise me. Then again, I have seen tannin bleed through 2 full oil prime and oil stain jobs on smooth side out cedar lap siding, so if cedar wants to bleed, it will find a way. And that was pretty clear cedar.


God that is the truth. I think there is a demon in there somewhere.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> Will the rubol acrylic hybrid hold back tannin bleed with no primer?  That would surprise me. Then again, I have seen tannin bleed through 2 full oil prime and oil stain jobs on smooth side out cedar lap siding, so if cedar wants to bleed, it will find a way. And that was pretty clear cedar.


It could. If it were going to be White, I would still recommend an oil primer though.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> John, did you pressure wash before you painted? Even if a cedar home is already painted, pressure washing can activate tannins because they are water soluble. IMO new cedar should be stained with transparent or semi transparent stain. Painting it is a sin, just like painting oak. If its already painted though, your options are limited


Yeah the house was dirty as a pig. I think if I did that house again I would have rensed it down with oxalic acid real good. My bad on that on. It will not happen again.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Oil yes, for the next beast I come to.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Sometimes you just have to experience the worst of the worst to get it through your head


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> That's great! (knew I was stirring up a hornet's nest)
> 
> Have just came across so many that have not lasted more than a few years and the one common denominator was no primer and latex products.


 I wouldn't trust a no prime exterior paint like duration, or aura on cedar especially down here at the beach. However like I said I have had very good results with acrylic solids woodscapes. Its also cheaper than HQ exterior paint.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> I wouldn't trust a no prime exterior paint like duration, or aura on cedar especially down here at the beach. However like I said I have had very good results with acrylic solids woodscapes. Its also cheaper than HQ exterior paint.


I have used it on cedar with good results also, but does it only come in like wood tones?


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Is there anything like that in lighter colors?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> Is there anything like that in lighter colors?


Woodscapes solid comes in any color if I remember correct. So does PPG Sunproof, and BM Moorwood or Arborcoat.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Woodscapes solid comes in any color if I remember correct. So does PPG Sunproof, and BM Moorwood or Arborcoat.


Like white? I totally love Sunproof.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I wouldn't trust a no prime exterior paint like duration, or aura on cedar especially down here at the beach. However like I said I have had very good results with acrylic solids woodscapes. Its also cheaper than HQ exterior paint.


I have never used Woodscapes before. Was talking to somebody I have a lot of respect for. Been painting for 25-30 years. He really liked it and had similar things to say about it. 

Am not opposed to technology, just don't want to be the first to use it. So I tend to stay with what has worked over the years.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

"Am not opposed to technology, just don't want to be the first to use it. So I tend to stay with what has worked over the years."
Damn your starting to sound like me, your in trouble now.
I do know that if the water base stain that has urethane in it sticks so good and it does breath better than oil would.I could see how it would do better. 
You can see how any moisture at all that comes from behind and through cedar would pool and not be able to get out without causing a bag in the paint if you used oil. I think Water base is going to be the future, but like you I would love to see others figure it out first.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> I have never used Woodscapes before. Was talking to somebody I have a lot of respect for. Been painting for 25-30 years. He really liked it and had similar things to say about it.
> 
> Am not opposed to technology, just don't want to be the first to use it. So I tend to stay with what has worked over the years.


 I totally understand and felt that way about the no prime $50 a gallon exterior paints when they came out. I washed that beach house I did five years ago and will upload the pics when I get a chance.

Decks and a few places on the handrails need redoing, and a few rusty nails on the siding but other than that its in fabulous shape. Decks were done in deckscapes and the handrails in duration.

NC paint is correct that you can get woodscapes in any SWP color as far as I know. This house has 5 colors on it.


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## FoilEffects (Dec 19, 2007)

Man I use to make a killing painting cedar. While I wont talk about what process to use as there are many I will say when cedar is originally painted on new cedar homes it is color coated in a factory. The process is somewhat the same that we would do on site however there is a kit givin to the contractor that does the siding that is RARELY used not to mention they are told by the manufacturer that an addition coat of the same needs to be applied when it is installed. Contractors are about time and money and following manufacturers recommendations are not at the top of the list. The installer is given a kit which includes touch up paint that they are to coat on the ends but most just opt for caulk and then touch up that. What happens is that the ends are raw and act like a wick sucking up in the first year all the moisture and failing the paint. While this could of been avoided the good news is it turns out great profits for you.


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## FoilEffects (Dec 19, 2007)

By the way in the above statement that I made I referenced paint. I have never painted cedar. I have always stained the cedar.

Personal preference is WOODSCAPES by SW, I have houses here in Illinois which I prepped and stained with 2 brush coats and 1 spray coat which are still in good shape after 10 years. Woodscapes is a breathable stain which requires no primer (self priming) but does require a lot of prep work and 92% dry wood to start. Use a moisture tested for best results. You must brush coat the first 2 coats to push it into the surface but then can spray a coat on to assure plenty of material is built up.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

So here are the pics, not bad at all for five years less than 150 feet from the Atlantic Ocean, and 20 feet from the Intercostal Waterway.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

I never knew why homeowners wanted to have cedar installed so someone can come back and apply a solid coating over it anyhow? They say that it costs too much to have to restore it, but if you got the money to put cedar on your house, then you should have money to keep it looking nice. Same goes for people with ipe decks and complain that a finish only lasts one year...

In my experience, if you are going to coat cedar the coating better be breathable or there will be peeling...


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## LOSTinDETAILS (Jun 17, 2009)

Tally Ho! Send them a Christmas card to show your appreciation.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

the colors yell "we were picked by a designer"


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I see some talk about Sherwin Williams Woodscapes mentioned on this topic. Just be sure you guys are not applying it on horizontal surfaces. Woodscapes is for "most vertical" surfaces. I consider the bottom edge of a cedar board to be horizontal, this is the area of the lap board that wicks water the most. Being a product for "most vertical" surfaces, I cant think of an application I could ever use it, especially on cedar.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

uhhh...


Vertical as in siding, right?

And horizontal as in decking, right?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Those pics speak for them self.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

oops, didn't see the pics until now. 

But I don't think the bottom edge of the cedar siding is a "horizontal surface", but rather a part of the vertical surface. I mean, c'mon.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Those pics speak for them self.


Yeah, doesnt look too bad. From the pics, the wood looked pretty beat up before the solid even went on, which would be my guess as to why they chose a solid to begin with. For some reason I like a heavier coating if someone wants a solid. Sikkens Solid DEK after 2 coats has a nice film build. It sorta fills in the rough grains of the wood giving a pretty uniform look.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yeah, doesnt look too bad. From the pics, the wood looked pretty beat up before the solid even went on, which would be my guess as to why they chose a solid to begin with. For some reason I like a heavier coating if someone wants a solid. Sikkens Solid DEK after 2 coats has a nice film build. It sorta fills in the rough grains of the wood giving a pretty uniform look.


 Yea the decks were horrible. In fact the cedar ship lap was just as bad. The lap was an addition I framed in so it was brand new. I used damn near a case of caulk on that little house. :whistling2:

I was referring to the siding more so than the decking. I hate putting any solids on decks no matter the product. But for the beach it has held up very well, and they could get another five years out of it before needing to repaint the siding.


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## Scottclarkpainting (Jul 17, 2010)

A shelac based primer will never let go, not matter the surface.
And it holds back all wood stains and water stains.


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## pmi1 (May 10, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> Yea the decks were horrible. In fact the cedar ship lap was just as bad. The lap was an addition I framed in so it was brand new. I used damn near a case of caulk on that little house. :whistling2:
> 
> I was referring to the siding more so than the decking. I hate putting any solids on decks no matter the product. But for the beach it has held up very well, and they could get another five years out of it before needing to repaint the siding.


 what type of paint did you use on the cedar lap siding???


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

SW woodscapes.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

The concern I have with any alkyd based primer is that the binder will get harder with age, this will mean that one day in the future the coating will need to be removed completely I believe. Am I correct? 

The problem with latex paints peeling back could be the type of latex product used and the viscosity of the first coat. A modified 100% acrylic has glycol oils that penetrate the timber, the coating itself should follow through on the glycol penetrating the timber with the oil before the coating dries and encapsulates the outer fibres of the timber.

Another concern I have over alkyd undercoats is that though the undercoat will penetrate the substrate the acrylic won't because the alkyd will prevent it, making the glycol oils in the acrylic pointless. This means that the coating that is locked into the fibre is a product that is not only very weak against of harsh changes in temperature but also mould tends to love it. 

The oils in alkyd undercoats feed mould where the synthetic oils used in acrylic don't.

Just my thoughts, I may not be aware of the type of oil based primer you use in the States though. Perhaps I am missing something.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Scottclarkpainting said:


> A shelac based primer will never let go, not matter the surface.
> And it holds back all wood stains and water stains.


Never use shellac except for spot priming exterior knots. Vapor barrier on outside is a bad idea.


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## A+HomeWork (Dec 10, 2010)

*"Redwood Siding?"*

I have a house built in 1941 and I have been told it probably has redwood siding. There are many layers where stuff was scraped and repainted, but you can see the layers where the old paint stuck.
I am thinking about the paintshaver to totally remove the visible layers, but this thread has bot me wondering what to apply:

1) Oil prime and Duration Satin?

2) Woodscapes?

Does redwood have the same characteristics as cedar? I don't want to be a paint idiot either!!

Thanks.


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## It's the painter (Nov 19, 2009)

thru time cedar builds a film on it self taht looks like a haze if you really look at it.Cabot and other products make a solution that cleans the cedar and reopens the pours after a good scrub and power wash and don t forget to sand before you stain.But can never go wrong with using oil primer.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Having read this entire thread, I have some questions and was hoping you would help resolve all the contradicting ones that I have heard. 

Cedar Siding, serious paint failure, due to mill glaze as the builder used smooth side out!!!! Many scrapings and 3 paint jobs! .... Decided to use Paint Shaver Pro .... Picture attached, best decision we made....

1) was advised to sand with 50 grit paper so that cedar is rough and takes paint well... Someone else said 80 grit .... Any thoughts or opinions?

2) Cedar needs to breath???? Is that a NO TO Benjamin Moore Alkyd Primer because it's oil based? I was told use The Benjamin Moore Alkyd Primer with two coats of Solid Ben M Stain .... That would be like a Paint???? Is there any other stain that comes in colors similar to the gray color on the house? Thats better than a solid stain?

3) Caulking, in this post someone mentioned that caulking the house tightly would cause a tight seal and that would not allow the house to breath? so the paint would peel off? So what caulking should one use? and how does one caulk where it's not tight?

4) Whats the best way to get the old caulking and paint out of the corners? Paint shaver did such a great job, now what about the corners? Any suggestion on a grinder? or sander that reaches corners? 

Thanks for you help, normally do interiors, this is our first exterior .....


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

......


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

I just finished a nightmare cedar job...what worked best for me was EXTENSIVE scraping, then sunproof brand oil, then 2 coats latex.


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Yeah, right!*



hammerheart14 said:


> THANK YOU!!!! You don't know how much I argue this point with painters in my area!!! The ONLY type of primer that can hold back tannin acid bleed-through is a good quality exterior oil based primer (like cabot's problem solver). SO MANY GUYS are just so lazy to use an oil base because (bo-hu!!!) the cleanup. get some damn paint thinner for god's sake!!!! then let dry full 24-48 hours, then put a good quality 100% low lustre acrylic finish on (two-coats) stuff will last for years and years. Bu there's always gonna be people who say "Oh, water base primers can block tannins out, trust me." Yeah right.


Can't blame you for thinking water based primers can't block tannins, because all the current formulations on the market can't. Wait 2 months then try my new Prime 'N Hide waterborne primer. Blocks out the most severe tannins with one application.


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