# help making doors look smooth...



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

So, Im spraying advance fir the first time on new construction. I knew there'd be a learning curve, and I've got it mostly dialed now, except for the doors...

So, first I prepped and primed the trim with a 312FFLP using Seal Grip Wood Undercoater. I sanded the pre-primed doors really good with 320. I tested out three to see what would happen. I didnt prime the doors. I screwed up and forgot the change my tip to 412, and the first three I did didnt exactly run and sag per se, but it looked awful, like really bad orange peel that was microsagging. So, I went and picked up a FFLP 410, and sprayed the remaining 7 upstairs doors with it. It went on a LOT better. I did a light tack coat, then a full coat about 15 minutes later. I used the 410 for the jambs and base too.

Anyway, I let the bad doors sit for a couple days. The ones That didnt turn out bad, showed these wood fibers really bad. It was kind of a bitch to sand. I used 320 and 400. After I sanded and 2nd coated them, they looked pretty good. I decided I would give any future doors a coat of the undercoater. 

After a few days, I went back to the bad doors, and palm sanded them down with 150 then 220, then undercoated them I also undercoated a new pocket door they installed. I sanded the undercoater with 320 and 400, and sprayed my first coat of advance on, but all four of them are still showing these wood fibers really bad. 

Should I switch to a shellac or lacquer undercoater?Maybe the waterbornew products are making these fibers show through? Im going above and beyond my bid with these doors as it is, so Im not gonna shell out for some expensive advance primer, and Im not gonna use oil. I'd rather prime them then have to sand down these wood fibers in the Advance, but I'd rather just sand the first coat good, than wait for oil to dry. Im, burning through a half a sheet of sandpaper per door side. Theres about 30 more doors to do when I get downstairs, so I'd like to get this figured out. I've attached a pic of a raw door (no they arent upside down, they are supposed to be that way) and of the wood fibers in the first coat. To be clear, this door was sanded, coated with advance, sanded, primed, sanded and now has one coat of advance, and it STILL has wood fibers showing....


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Maybe try their Alkyd Seal Grip, tinted to the finish color, on a few of the doors downstairs. I've never used this product so I don't know how bad it smells, or if this is an issue. It says it's fast drying, and someone here may know the drying time it needs for sanding! Just a thought!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

ALWAYS REPRIME THE PRE PRIMED.
Use your ppg undercoater and hose the crap out of em then 2 coats finish. Prime the doors a couple of times if ya want, it'll help with the build and the undercoater dries fast.
They're mdf doors. If they don't want fibers they need to buy a higher grade door.
And as always, the higher the sheen, the more you'll see. Happy painting!


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## Lazerlnes (Sep 9, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> ALWAYS REPRIME THE PRE PRIMED.
> Use your ppg undercoater and hose the crap out of em then 2 coats finish. Prime the doors a couple of times if ya want, it'll help with the build and the undercoater dries fast.
> They're mdf doors. If they don't want fibers they need to buy a higher grade door.
> And as always, the higher the sheen, the more you'll see. Happy painting!


 Yep ^ I second that


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## ThreeSistersPainting (Jan 7, 2017)

Water base products dont work that well against raw mdf. Water + MDF (basically glue and sawdust) = swelling and peach fuzz.

The mdf needs to be sealed prior to finish coats. My personal favorite for any interior wood work is Sherwin Easy Sand Primer (Oil) because it lays down nicely and easily sands to a super fine finish. Other options would be Bullseye sanding sealer (Shellac) or an equivalent sealer thats solvent based. 

Advance is a cool product and I just finished an interior using it. I fogged the first coat, let it dry, sanded, then layed a finish coat over that. Its not your standard latex enamel, need to be patient with the extended dry times. Also, The product will only look as good as the surface its being put on.

Edit*
I took a second look at the pictures, it appears the orange peel texture is the mdf surface and not the paint. May sand a portion of the door down and see if the mdf is swelled under the surface.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Part of your issue may simply be poor quality doors. 

Every once in awhile I get some that look like they are made out of OSB rather than MDF. They take more sanding and a heavier prime coat just to get them to a top coating stage. If you can swing it, I wouldn't hesitate to charge more for the painting since they may have made it tougher on you by getting cheap doors in order to save a few bucks.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I agree with everything above but,

if you don't want the swollen mdf fiber look:

1. Use oil primer like bm 217, fresh start. The stuff is awesome. I almost always sand my primers, (like 95% of the time) but this stuff turns out nice and smooth if you put one even wet coat on and don't overspray it from other doors. At minimum, the edges can be sponged lightly, or the whole door if need be. There will be no raised fibers to worry about.
Yes it's a slow dry, there are other oils that would be faster when needed. 
.
2. You asked about shellac or lacquer undercoater... lacquer undercoater is awesome but nastier than oil in many ways and I don't think you'll get good adhesion with the acrylic or hybrid on it.. Been there, had issues... and you can't just do the job fast because you still need to double coat with L.U. and let it gas off completely before sanding and applying Advance. 

3. Either put on a high performing acrylic primer (correctly), or put on several coats of quality acrylic primer, evenly, with real dry time in between. You'll still have raised grain... 
- 410 tip, 9-10" away, lots of overlap, a good gun speed, no tack coat with primer or Advance.

Acrylics don't sand worth a damn, so you have to be able to spray fine finish quality on every coat. Primer could turn out smooth except for raised "grain", or could be orange peel (too heavy). You could sand that down only to have the finish coat raise the grain again due to acrylic primer not sealing the mdf.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Let me state AGAIN, that the pics of the raised grain are AFTER I had primed them, and sanded the primer. Obviously, this primer isnt cutting it for the doors, for some reason. It works great for the trim though. The other doors I finished turned out great, it was just a bitch to sand the fibers down after the first coat of advance, but after the second coat, they look great. Charging any more for these doors is not an option, neither is buying an expensive primer. For the next job I do for these guys, I can put it in my bid accordingly, but the previous project manager on this job screwed up really bad, they fired him, and got a new guy, but the head GC is losing his ass big time because of his project manager screwed him. Luckily for me, the guy they fired, convinced me to jack my prices up really high when I gave my bid, so Im not losing my ass. 

Its really weird, cuz these doors are smooth raw, I prime them and sand it smooth, look down them with a bright light, it looks great, then I shoot some advance on, and they go to hell... They're not cheap doors either. I sprayed one of them with INSLX cabinet coat as a test, without priming, and it looks like GLASS. Its something about the Advance these doors dont like. I might bite the bullet and try an oil primer. Do you think BIN would work? I'd rather go that route, if Im gonna switch up primers.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Try SW's Exterior Oil Based Primer. I have used it on raw wood doors with great results.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Did I not say earlier to try an oil based primer? I've painted for 40 plus years now, and I'm not a moron.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ok, so today, the doors didnt look quite as bad, and it actually sanded out reasonably. Im NOT gonna spray oil on 30 doors downstairs though. That would be a sticky nightmare, and thats the whole reason Im using advance in the first place. I'd shell out for the advance primer sooner than that... Im actually thinking about maybe using BIN.. I get a good price on it, it drys fast, goes on smooth, and it will do the job, right? 

Heres the thing: Im being WAY pickier about the way I want these than both the HO, and the GC. If I wanted to, I could leave those fibers in the finish and they'd be happy. Hell, the CABINETS look worse than the pictures I posted... But, I do take pride in my work, so I want them to look sweet, so I'll go above and beyond TO AN EXTENT. Im not gonna drop an extra $300 for primer, and Im not gonna use any slow drying oil. Theres just too many of them for that. 

Im really just trying to pinpoint the science of WHY these fibers are showing through. I think the consensus is the water in the material is making them swell? 

Im not kidding about testing a door with cabinet coat, and it looked like GLASS, with minimal sanding and no primer. If Cabinet Coat wasnt so prone to marring, I would have used it. It costs more, but damn, it looked sweet... BETTER than oil. So why do these fibers show up with advance, and not cabinet coat?


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Spite. And cheap doors. Spray and be done. Then go figure it out on a test door at home.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

getrex said:


> Spite. And cheap doors. Spray and be done. Then go figure it out on a test door at home.


Spite? AS in.... God's messing with me? :surprise:


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Bin, not really..no


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

When you primed the does did you apply a very light tack coat first or just one heavy coat?

Maybe try a primer like SW Kem Aqua Surfacer. Or if you had such good results use Cabinet Coat as a primer and top coat with Advance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PNW Painter said:


> When you primed the does did you apply a very light tack coat first or just one heavy coat?
> 
> Maybe try a primer like SW Kem Aqua Surfacer. Or if you had such good results use Cabinet Coat as a primer and top coat with Advance.
> 
> ...


No, Im not tack coating the primer. Im actually doing more of a medium coat with it. Im using a 410. The heavier the coat the harder it is to sand, so Im not going too crazy with it. Do you think thats the problem? The door in the pic had already been topcoated, then orbital sanded with 150 to get rid of the bad surface, and then primed again, and the fibers STILL showed. I dont get it.

Im not gonna pay SW prices either, and Im sure as hell not gonna pay $60 a gallon for cabinet coat to use as a primer! :vs_laugh: Did you really just suggest that?

If I DO end up going with an expensive primer, I might as well just go with the advance primer, dont you think?

I think BIN will do the job. I think I might try a heavier prime coat on one side of a door downstairs to see if that does the trick. I guess its possible that its too thin of a coat...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> No, Im not tack coating the primer. Im actually doing more of a medium coat with it. Im using a 410. The heavier the coat the harder it is to sand, so Im not going too crazy with it. Do you think thats the problem? The door in the pic had already been topcoated, then orbital sanded with 150 to get rid of the bad surface, and then primed again, and the fibers STILL showed. I dont get it.
> 
> Im not gonna pay SW prices either, and Im sure as hell not gonna pay $60 a gallon for cabinet coat to use as a primer! :vs_laugh: Did you really just suggest that?
> 
> ...


Instead of wasting time experimenting or doing different products on different sides, why not just apply a decent quality oil based primer and move on? Sure it may cost more (but likely not more than BIN), but at least you will likely solve your problem and be able to get this project completed without further issues or delays. The extra time you've spent so far in trying to figure this out would probably have paid for the the best primer out there, and then some.


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Playtest on your own time. You could have been done already in the two days you have spent in this thread.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm not gonna spray slow drying oil on this many doors in this house. If it were just a few doors, that'd be one thing, but I have over 30 doors to do in a living room area. Not to mention, there are other people working in different areas of this house. The trim guys are way behind schedule. I have the upstairs trim complete, and Im painting upstairs walls now. Then, Im gonna be doing downstairs doors while they are finishing base and casing. Im not getting held back by anything. I have time to do some testing. 

I know you guys are all set on your oil based primer, and Im not denying its a better way to go, but it isnt always feasable to spray, so If I figure out the alternative now, I have my system. The fact is, the doors I did without priming came out looking sweet, so I know damn well they dont HAVE to be primed at all. It was just a bitch to sand the first coat. That doesnt mean I need to go straight for the oil. 

I've always either sprayed new doors with waterbased enamel, without priming, or stained and laquered them. I've never needed to prime them before. The next job that wants oil based or advance, I can charge accordingly and take the proper steps, and use the correct primer. This one, is what it is.

I think I'll just use BIN.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I used sw pro block oil the other day for the first time. 30minute dry time it said on the can. You could sand in about an hour or two but was better over night. Powdered up great and no grain raise on poplar like Ive battled in the past. Sure other oils work just as good.

For me if I had that many doors to do I'd bite the bullet and load up the oil. Probably similar cost to what you are already using. Save yourself alot of time in the end because you won't be futzing around with raised fibers. The hold out for the top coat was excellent as well. I started with water borne and never used oil up until this point but I'm convinced for new wood a solvent primer is required. 

The kem aqua plus surfacer is quick drying, easy sanding and rather hard. It smooths up so nicely when sanding. But I find it raises grain as bad or worse than thicker waterborne primers. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? 

BTW I haven't used the advanced primer but most say it sands poorly or at least you need to give it a good 24 hours or more to get it there. Seems to be the same time frame as oil. And the oil is probably cheaper. 

I'm convinced and will be trying to use oil primer now whenever feasible for new wood.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

sayn3ver said:


> I used sw pro block oil the other day for the first time. 30minute dry time it said on the can. You could sand in about an hour or two but was better over night. Powdered up great and no grain raise on poplar like Ive battled in the past. Sure other oils work just as good.
> 
> For me if I had that many doors to do I'd bite the bullet and load up the oil. Probably similar cost to what you are already using. Save yourself alot of time in the end because you won't be futzing around with raised fibers. The hold out for the top coat was excellent as well. I started with water borne and never used oil up until this point but I'm convinced for new wood a solvent primer is required.
> 
> ...


Thank you for providing explanations with your suggestions. I hate when people say "use this" and dont tell me why. Im trying to actually UNDERSTAND why certain products are better,m and understand why the grain is raising in the first place, instead of "This is what people tell me to use, so Im just gonna use it, without understanding why." 

People have suggested Kem Aqua surfacer, but the primer I am already using is more or less PPG's version of the same thing. And Im really glad i didnt go out and buy it because you say it raises the grain as well. That would have been a waste of money. I believe its the water that makes the grain swell. Either that, or I just didnt put it on heavy enough...

I get BIN a really good price, and noone can give me a reason why its not as good, or at least close, to an oil based primer, which tells me that they're just set in their ways, so I see no reason why not to just use it, at least for this job. 

If I were to use an oil based, I would use this, just because PPG is my go to store, and give me great prices. Its probably the same thing as the SW Pro block you mentioned above. BIN has a quicker recoat time though, but dries thinner. I guess I'll have to think about it. 
https://www.ppgpaints.com/products/seal-grip-interiorexterior-alkyd-universal-primer


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Ppg did have an interior oil undercoat similar to bm217 I believe but I am thinking it was discontinued either last year or the year before.

Kem aqua plus surfacer is not like ppg acrylic undercoat. The surfacer is very thin. Not quite water thin but not much thicker. It is not a brushable, it's not recommended on anything but raw wood. You also have to be mindful of it's final dry film thickness like you would with shellac. I also know the surfacer is not affected by alcohol (at least not a quick tack cloth type wipe) unlike your typical acrylic product. To me it also telegraphs imperfections more than a thicker higher build primer for the obvious reason. 

I do like the surfacer don't get me wrong. It's basically hvlp ready in terms of viscosity. It does dry quick and sands quick. It also doesn't block as far as I can tell. It doesn't hide well. And once again if you try to put it on thicker than spec it gets werid. It also needs to be strained with a fine filter. The gallons I've used had a fine sand like grit in them. 

I'd say ppg acrylic undercoat is similar or the same as sw wall and wood.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ok, gotchya I definitely dont want Kem Aqua then. Im actually gonna bite the bullet. I looked up PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry. I didnt realize that. I called them for a price, and it is actually on sale until tomorrow, ($18 a gallon) so Im gonna buy a few gallons, and try it. hopefully it will work like everyone claims... I let the GC know that any future jobs with doors like this are gonna be upcharged, including the ones I've already bid. It turns out it is a really crappy factory prime. For giggles today, I sanded one, primed it, sanded it again, and primed it again, and the fibers STILL showed through. Im at a loss. This oil based BETTER work.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Ok, gotchya I definitely dont want Kem Aqua then. Im actually gonna bite the bullet. I looked up PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry. I didnt realize that. I called them for a price, and it is actually on sale until tomorrow, ($18 a gallon) so Im gonna buy a few gallons, and try it. hopefully it will work like everyone claims... I let the GC know that any future jobs with doors like this are gonna be upcharged, including the ones I've already bid. It turns out it is a really crappy factory prime. For giggles today, I sanded one, primed it, sanded it again, and primed it again, and the fibers STILL showed through. Im at a loss. This oil based BETTER work.


LOAD EM WITH PRIMER AND DON'T SAND BETWEEN PRIME COATS.
I think you're going too thin, sanding off the material, then applying top coat that is swelling your grain, then repeating the process.

Quit chasing your tail and prime them all twice if you're gonna go thin. If they were properly prepped prior to priming then your sanding should be nothing more than bump sanding (especially the edges of the doors)and into top coat. You started backwards and are using a flawed process as a baseline I think.
I'd either go with oil (tried and true but if you're oversanding, oil ain't gonna help) or stick with the undercoater and quit bein stingy with the primer. Lay it on or shoot em twice. it dries quick it just depends o your spraying style.
Happy painting.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> LOAD EM WITH PRIMER AND DON'T SAND BETWEEN PRIME COATS.
> I think you're going too thin, sanding off the material, then applying top coat that is swelling your grain, then repeating the process.
> 
> Quit chasing your tail and prime them all twice if you're gonna go thin. If they were properly prepped prior to priming then your sanding should be nothing more than bump sanding (especially the edges of the doors)and into top coat. You started backwards and are using a flawed process as a baseline I think.
> ...


lilpaintchic, Woodco said that he will be using *"PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry"*, is quick dry alkyd/oil that reliable?
Wouldn't be better to use regular dry or even long dry oil in place of a quick dry.
I personally don't trust quick dry oil primers. But I didn't really used them much. Long dry oil is my choice.
What's your (or other painters here) experience and results with quick dry oil primers on bare wood or MDF.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

XYZ said:


> lilpaintchic, Woodco said that he will be using *"PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry"*, is quick dry alkyd/oil that reliable?
> Wouldn't be better to use regular dry or even long dry oil in place of a quick dry.
> I personally don't trust quick dry oil primers. But I didn't really used them much. Long dry oil is my choice.
> What's your (or other painters here) experience and results with quick dry oil primers on bare wood or MDF.


I shoot em with either ppg latex undercoater or coverstain. Long dry is only used on exterior new lumber in my book...beyond that it's overkill and a production killer. 
These are mdf doors, some are manufactured better than others.
Some have more of a "plasticky" factory primer (the good ones) and some have the super crappy primer. If while sanding, the super crappy ones get over sanded then top coated, the fibers will expand considerably. The only thing that (ime) can be done at that point is to load,load,load them with primer (I shoot that type with latex, no problem. Top coat is always proclassic) and build. The undercoater is designed for build and won't swell the grain...it dries too fast. 
On the other type, we use coverstain. More for bite than anything else. If low temps are a problem, coverstain is the solution.
Both will dry fast so you can get to sanding and into top coat. Depending on how many doors there are, usually we have doors first coated the day they were primed. Bump sand, clean, caulk, prime, bump sand, clean, finish.
The op said something about using half a sheet per side and using 2 different grits. Like I said, I think they're being over sanded and under primed....
Interior quick dry oil is sufficient for any interior project I can think of. There are only a couple of reasons to use obp on an interior anyway...sealing stains or bite. Of course there are other advantages.we use cs on any new interior lumber to seal, reduce grain raising, and get into sanding. On a real heavy stain sometimes i'll hit it twice for insurance but normally that's just a spot prime. Never had a problem in a lot of years of doing this thing...
I dunno....different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

XYZ said:


> lilpaintchic, Woodco said that he will be using *"PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry"*, is quick dry alkyd/oil that reliable?
> Wouldn't be better to use regular dry or even long dry oil in place of a quick dry.
> I personally don't trust quick dry oil primers. But I didn't really used them much. Long dry oil is my choice.
> What's your (or other painters here) experience and results with quick dry oil primers on bare wood or MDF.


Quick or long dry has no relevance for what Im using it for. I need a NON water based primer, to stop the grain from swelling. THATS IT. Oil based is either going to work or not. there is no reason to use a long dry here, and a hundred reasons not to.

The waterborne undercoater is not working. I can sand, prime, sand and prime again, and the fibers still show.

I used the oil based today, and its better, but it didnt solve the problem. Ive come to the conclusion that Im better off just not using a primer, and sanding the crap out of the first coat with 400 grit. I KNOW that looks good.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> I shoot em with either ppg latex undercoater or coverstain. Long dry is only used on exterior new lumber in my book...beyond that it's overkill and a production killer.
> These are mdf doors, some are manufactured better than others.
> Some have more of a "plasticky" factory primer (the good ones) and some have the super crappy primer. If while sanding, the super crappy ones get over sanded then top coated, the fibers will expand considerably. The only thing that (ime) can be done at that point is to load,load,load them with primer (I shoot that type with latex, no problem. Top coat is always proclassic) and build. The undercoater is designed for build and won't swell the grain...it dries too fast.
> On the other type, we use coverstain. More for bite than anything else. If low temps are a problem, coverstain is the solution.
> ...


The reason Im burning through sandpaper is Im using 320 and 400 under the advance, cuz sanding marks are showing. It gums up REALLY fast. It turns out the doors do have a REALLY crappy factory prime job. My initial sand goes right through the top primer, even with 320. Under the primer I use 220 and it lasts a long time. The 320-400 over my new primer or topcoat last about five seconds.


Do you think I would have been better off priming the doors BEFORE my first sand? I primed some bifolds today with the oil base. I left the backside unsanded just to see if that would make a difference with the grain going away.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> The reason Im burning through sandpaper is Im using 320 and 400 under the advance, cuz sanding marks are showing. It gums up REALLY fast. It turns out the doors do have a REALLY crappy factory prime job. My initial sand goes right through the top primer, even with 320. Under the primer I use 220 and it lasts a long time. The 320-400 over my new primer or topcoat last about five seconds.
> 
> 
> Do you think I would have been better off priming the doors BEFORE my first sand? I primed some bifolds today with the oil base. I left the backside unsanded just to see if that would make a difference with the grain going away.


YES.
A quick bump sand with a sanding sponge (a used one that's fairly beat) then prime the he77 out of em. If you remove that factory grade crap you're making more work for yourself, as you (I believe) have experienced. Bump n go. By hand, not machine. The doors should come pretty smooth straight from the store. No need to go bonkers with the orbital till you know you have a truly sandable surface that can handle it. Only then will you get that baby's a55 smooth (as it's gonna get depending on the QUALITY (not to be confused with price))of the door. It's your primer build that makes a smooth surface outta those doors, not the other way around. 
I think you Gwent straight to top coat after sanding through a lot of the factory primer and basically squirted water on an mdf surface and it did exactly what it's supposed to do. Swell. And it's been a battle ever since. And I suspect the QUALITY isn't all that great to begin with....they are pretty when they're all smooth and finished.

Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That undercoater is pretty good and fine for that application. Just try another door or 2 with it leaving the factory primer pretty much in tact.
You can use whatever primer you want button telling ya, I think it's more of a technique/process problem than a product issue. I think its more of a lack of product issue.How does the other trim look comparatively?


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> I shoot em with either ppg latex undercoater or coverstain. Long dry is only used on exterior new lumber in my book...beyond that it's overkill and a production killer.
> These are mdf doors, some are manufactured better than others.
> *Some have more of a "plasticky" factory primer* (the good ones) and some have the super crappy primer. If while sanding, the super crappy ones get over sanded then top coated, the fibers will expand considerably. The only thing that (ime) can be done at that point is to load,load,load them with primer (I shoot that type with latex, no problem. Top coat is always proclassic) and build. *The undercoater is designed for build and won't swell the grain...it dries too fast. *
> *On the other type, we use coverstain. More for bite than anything else. If low temps are a problem, coverstain is the solution.*
> ...


Thanks so much.

Yes several times MDF was primed with a very nice coat of thick "plasticky" factory primer,it was joy to work with.

You are talking about fast dry water based undercoater that dries fast not oil, or both.
So there is no problem with adhesion of fast dry primers,(water or oil) if you start sanding and topcoating after one or two hours, (according to the manufacturer's specs of course).
Last time I worked on nc was over 10 years ago and primer was always left to dry overnight,and I know remodeling has different production needs.
On top of it I do not spry,(by choice), just brush and roll, working solo. 
So my experiences and time restrains are different than crew outlets doing much bigger projects, like new homes or complete or significant part house re-paint.

Yes used CS many times, as well as BM Fresh Start oil primer.
Since you are using so much CS I like to ask you this question.
PACman (who's posts I like reading very much, so much for long time gathered info and truth, including his Hillbillies lab results, *all that served with a blast of cayenne pepper filled cloud of steam *directed towards SW, and with a dash of humor 'on the edge') (please don't confuse me liking his posts with me liking his avatar.LOL) 
Going back to the topic. PACman suggested that some primers bought in the big pumpkin store might be re-formulated (to lower quality for price point) and the same primers sold to stores like SW or BM, Dulux, etc have the original formula in them. 

Is it possible for you to do the scientific in field testing by buying gallon of the CS at PumpkingDepot and gallon in a reputable paint store (I include SW in that category,lol) (sorry PACman) and do various tests and observations to see if there are any noticeable 'in field' differences between the two without sending samples to the chemistry lab to prove PACman wright or wrong. 

Can you imagine PACmans 'stock value' going up on PaintTalk(and beyond) if there is a difference between them and PACman is right.
Let's don't even discuss the very unlikely possibility that PACman is...., (No I'm not going there, NO)


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

P.S.
for those who keep time, 
that above post took me two glasses of red wine to compose.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

lilpaintchic said:


> YES.
> A quick bump sand with a sanding sponge (a used one that's fairly beat) then prime the he77 out of em. If you remove that factory grade crap you're making more work for yourself, as you (I believe) have experienced. Bump n go. By hand, not machine. The doors should come pretty smooth straight from the store. No need to go bonkers with the orbital till you know you have a truly sandable surface that can handle it. Only then will you get that baby's a55 smooth (as it's gonna get depending on the QUALITY (not to be confused with price))of the door. It's your primer build that makes a smooth surface outta those doors, not the other way around.
> I think you Gwent straight to top coat after sanding through a lot of the factory primer and basically squirted water on an mdf surface and it did exactly what it's supposed to do. Swell. And it's been a battle ever since. And I suspect the QUALITY isn't all that great to begin with....they are pretty when they're all smooth and finished.
> 
> ...


Because of my English, not being my native language sometimes I have to google things to understand what they mean.
This is what I've got googling, he77
https://www.google.ca/search?q=he77...c7WAhUU2WMKHbNNDHAQ_AUICygC&biw=1940&bih=1002

hell with google


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> YES.
> A quick bump sand with a sanding sponge (a used one that's fairly beat) then prime the he77 out of em. If you remove that factory grade crap you're making more work for yourself, as you (I believe) have experienced. Bump n go. By hand, not machine. The doors should come pretty smooth straight from the store. No need to go bonkers with the orbital till you know you have a truly sandable surface that can handle it. Only then will you get that baby's a55 smooth (as it's gonna get depending on the QUALITY (not to be confused with price))of the door. It's your primer build that makes a smooth surface outta those doors, not the other way around.
> I think you Gwent straight to top coat after sanding through a lot of the factory primer and basically squirted water on an mdf surface and it did exactly what it's supposed to do. Swell. And it's been a battle ever since. And I suspect the QUALITY isn't all that great to begin with....they are pretty when they're all smooth and finished.
> 
> ...


Im not using an orbital. Only with the doors that I overdid with the topcoat. The trim is coming out nice, but its crap too. Is solid wood with a factory prime that is a lot nicer and smoother, yet is not adhered properly, so I made the GC give me a waiver on that. (Tape will pull the finish off right to bare wood.) The paint job itself is looking good, aside from the problems that are out of my control, like wavy grain patters, and that some of the miters had to get sanded down pretty hard, and its showing through the paint. Not my problem though.

I get what youre saying about not sanding down so much. Its kinda hard not to, actually. However, what about the ones I sanded, primed, sanded, and primed again? I shouldnt be seeing any fibers showing through that... Anyway, I only have 8 more raw doors, and Im set up win this oil primer now, so Im gonna finish off with it, even though I hate it, and I cant get any build with it.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Ok, gotchya I definitely dont want Kem Aqua then. Im actually gonna bite the bullet. I looked up PPG's alkyd primer and it turns out it is quick dry. I didnt realize that. I called them for a price, and it is actually on sale until tomorrow, ($18 a gallon) so Im gonna buy a few gallons, and try it. hopefully it will work like everyone claims... I let the GC know that any future jobs with doors like this are gonna be upcharged, including the ones I've already bid. It turns out it is a really crappy factory prime. For giggles today, I sanded one, primed it, sanded it again, and primed it again, and the fibers STILL showed through. Im at a loss. This oil based BETTER work.


Told you so!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> Told you so!


Lol

Well you can't go wrong with oil, that's for sure. You may be just fighting crappy doors or have higher expectations (perfectionism runs rampant with us painters...lol) than your situation allows to reasonably expect. 

Without seeing your process and how far you're going it's really hard to say beyond a reasonable doubt exactly what the deal is. If you're still having the same problems with oil that you had with latex there are only 2 possibilities. Crap doors and/or over sanding. 
Again, they're mdf. It is what it is sometimes.
Maybe I'm totally off base but my thoughts are based on personal experience. There's a wealth of that on here which I truly appreciate.

Some guys like ez sand a lot... never used it bit may give it a go at some point. Font do much nc so we get a fair mix of new with the old and our materials change to fit the needs of the job.

Good luck finishing up. Sometimes ya gotta just learn a few things and sell it. Chances are you're far more critical than whoever is writing the check anyway.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

One thing I've found is that Advance is notorious for re-activating/swelling substrates that aren't properly sealed and telegraphing imperfections through the finish. Compared to many other top coats its a very challenging product to work with.

I've learned this the hard way, but the goal of sanding your final prime coat should only be to knock down the slightly gritty feel of the primer. Fixing imperfections in the substrate should have already been completed before this. With Advance I'll use 320 or 400 grit and I really like foam back abrasives. If everything was prepped we'll, the hand sanding doesn't take very long.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Brushman4 said:


> Told you so!


Told me what? You said the oil base would solve the problem, and so far it hasn't. Thats only one part of this equation, obviously. Now, it seems like Im probably sanding too much before the primer. tomorrow, I'll topcoat the ones I primed with the oil and report back. I have a feeling Im STILL gonna have to sand the fibers out of them. Im not convinced the oil base wasnt a waste of time, but I'll find out tomorrow...


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Told me what? You said the oil base would solve the problem, and so far it hasn't. Thats only one part of this equation, obviously. Now, it seems like Im probably sanding too much before the primer. tomorrow, I'll topcoat the ones I primed with the oil and report back. I have a feeling Im STILL gonna have to sand the fibers out of them. Im not convinced the oil base wasnt a waste of time, but I'll find out tomorrow...


So, just give em a quick bump, clean em off (don't sand the factory primer off AT ALL) and throw a coat (or 2 if you're going very thin) of primer on em. Seriously, the prep should be very minimal. Then see where you're at. You should be pretty dang smooth, just needing a quick bump and some caulk maybe then finish.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Told me what? You said the oil base would solve the problem, and so far it hasn't. Thats only one part of this equation, obviously. Now, it seems like Im probably sanding too much before the primer. tomorrow, I'll topcoat the ones I primed with the oil and report back. I have a feeling Im STILL gonna have to sand the fibers out of them. Im not convinced the oil base wasnt a waste of time, but I'll find out tomorrow...


For some reason I am having trouble following what has and hasn't been tried by you up to this point. So am I understanding that you used an oil based primer and had the same issue with the fibers raising again?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

This is what I've done: 

Set 1: Sprayed advance with no primer, after sanding the factory primer by hand, possible too much. . Lots of fibers showed through after first coat. Sanded the crap out of that with 400, second coated it. They look really good.

Set 2 Actually the first set I sprayed, and first time spraying advance. Sanded the factory prime really good, sprayed advance, too heavy. They didnt really run or sag, but they looked like crap. A few days later, I hit them with an orbital, with 150, then primed them with PPG Latex Wood undercoater. Lightly sanded that then hit with advance. Wood fibers showing through just like set number one, as If I didnt even prime. Sanded the crap out of that with 400 and second coated. They look good.

Set three. Sanded factory prime, hit with latex undercoater Took ONE of these, slightly sanded the undercoater, and sprayed another coat of it. Shined my flashlight on it, and could still see wood fibers. gave all these a sand, and gave the oil based primer a shot. They were wet when I left, but it was looking like the fibers were still showing through. 

Set 4: These include two sets of bifolds. I left the backsides unsanded to see if it will work better if I dont sand before the prime. Sanded the fronts, and hit them with oil primer. Had some issues with my sprayer, and was getting major tip fingering, so I thinned down the primer a little. Ended up spraying the first three of them too heavy, and they ran pretty bad...  

After I dialed in my spraying I did the rest. I know I thinned the primer a little, but it had zero build from what I could tell, before I left. I could see sanding scratches really bad, and the wood fibers are popping through.

I have 8 more that I havent touched yet.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> This is what I've done:
> 
> Set 1: Sprayed advance with no primer, after sanding the factory primer by hand, possible too much. . Lots of fibers showed through after first coat. Sanded the crap out of that with 400, second coated it. They look really good.
> 
> ...


Okay - that helped.

First, I will echo what others have already stated; I suspect you are trying to get a flawless product out of what may be some doors that have some issues to start with. I applaud that you want to turn out great work, but using a flashlight to inspect your work tells me you are being super critical and likely much more demanding than any customer would be. Perfection is a nice ideal but not always attainable or practical.

Next, your initial use of a water based primer; MDF reacts badly with moisture. Heck, just look at how many bathrooms that have MDF base which has swelled up and become distorted near to a shower or tub. So, using a latex primer likely just enhanced that process.

I know you have expressed an aversion to using an oil based primer due to cost and slower dry time. So, with the hope of mitigating those issues, you went with a fast dry oil based primer (which I believe you then thinned further). My experience with those is they are thin (hence your issues with lack of build up and the sanding scratches showing through) and of a generally lower standard. They dry fast and are cheaper because they lack the very properties that make the long dry primers better products in the first place. 

As much as you don't want to hear it, using a good quality long dry oil based primer is likely the best way to get the results you want. You won't raise the grain further. You will get a decent build up. And you will be able to sand to a powder with *minimal* effort. In reading your description of what you have done, I really think the somewhat longer dry time of the better primer will be more than offset by the shorter amount of time you need to spend sanding. As for the higher cost, well, you may just have to bite the bullet this time. In the future, factor it in to your bid.

Over the years I have done a crap load of MDF doors using long dry oil based primers and consistently gotten great results. But I also have to be clear that I don't use Advancce - not because it isn't good, I just don't have access to a decent local supplier. My go to top coaters are SW's Pro-Industial Multi-Surface Acrylic enamel or Kelly Moore's Dura-Poxi Acrylic enamel. Both have given me great results which have held up well. 

Finally, a friendly suggestion. Next time do your experimenting and product research in advance of beginning a big project. I learned early on to have my process and product selection nailed down so once I started I could proceed without delays or backtracking. Before ever doing this again, consider purchasing an MDF door to practice on so when you actually start the job you will be confident in how to proceed. Trying to learn in the middle of a job can be frustrating, demoralizing, and a profit and schedule killer - as you are undoubtedly learning.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Oil (or at least Fresh start 217) sprays different than waterborne, you need full or almost full pressure even with fflp. Experienced this myself. Also on this big millpack I just did, I found I had to slow down the gun rate compared to topcoat (Durapoxy). But I did not thin my primer nor did I want to. 

All we ever use is 220 on millpacks. We never sand topcoats unless we got a run, then I wet sand it to avoid sanding marks.

Just a couple things I can mention, not saying "Do this".


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

Can you buy Lacquer Undercoat anymore? We can't in California, but from what I've read of your troubles, Lacquer would be the way to go for the primer. When I did residential, we used it on all the woodwork (Including the Bare MDF Built-ins) Builds high, drys fast, sands smooth, but it smells like Lacquer. 

Just my $.02


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

kentdalimp said:


> Can you buy Lacquer Undercoat anymore? We can't in California, but from what I've read of your troubles, Lacquer would be the way to go for the primer. When I did residential, we used it on all the woodwork (Including the Bare MDF Built-ins) Builds high, drys fast, sands smooth, but it smells like Lacquer.
> 
> Just my $.02


That is great primer. What do you think about the adhesion factor of the Advance on top of that? 

I used BM Metal and Wood enamel on lacquer undercoater 6 years ago, the top coats peeled right off in places.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> That is great primer. What do you think about the adhesion factor of the Advance on top of that?


Wish I could say. I haven't used Advance in the field, but know everyone says its hit or miss with adhesion. (It seems like it's Love/Hate on Paintalk)No reason it shouldn't work, but it's better to stick with good painting practices and use the same manufacturer for the Primer and finish. I don't think BM has a Lacquer Undercoat anymore...



ridesarize said:


> I used BM Metal and Wood enamel on lacquer undercoater 6 years ago, the top coats peeled right off in places.


Oil or Latex? (Impervex/Ironclad - I think??) never had it happen to me, but there is always a first. My first thought would be if there was still sanding dust in those spots, but it could be any number of things that caused it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm pretty sure BM still has white lacquer undercoater in their Lenmar line. I thought I'd read that it wasn't recommended under Advance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

kentdalimp said:


> Oil or Latex? (Impervex/Ironclad - I think??) never had it happen to me, but there is always a first. My first thought would be if there was still sanding dust in those spots, but it could be any number of things that caused it.


Latex metal and wood enamel. I agree, the adhesion is hit and miss. I think it's too uncertain for me to do it again. 
Last year, I used lacquer undercoater on a cool project because poplar and alaskan cedar was the substrate, and cabinet coat was the desired topcoat. I barely got away with it. I had some adhesion issues and addressed some spots and I think the rest stayed in place, but it was risky. I thought about going over the lacquer with another primer first but I didn't have the time at all for that. That was the caboose remodel I featured on here.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

ridesarize said:


> Oil (or at least Fresh start 217) sprays different than waterborne, you need full or almost full pressure even with fflp.


Heres what happened with that: I brought in my little spraytech 495 to spray the oil primer with. It worked fine the last time I used it. I put on my 410 FFLP tip and it was fingering really bad. I ended up going full pressure, and it was like barely anything was coming out of it. The pump was barely cycling, so I know its not the packings or anything. I changed gun filters, tried different tips, to the same result. So, I thinned the primer down just a bit to get it to spray better. It was either that, or go home...

After the first one started sagging, I just put my gun a foot and a half back, and fogged the rest of them. Oh, and I realized I forgot to take off the 412 I tried when I was trying different tips.... :vs_whistle:

Do you think my pressure sensor is bad? Its as if I had the pressure set to one third, but it was all the way up.

Anyway, yesterday, I palm sanded the sags out with 320 and sanded everything with 400. Yes, its absolutely sands like a dream, and they were babys ass smooth. I never denied oil would be better, its just the headache of using it.

The backsides of the bifolds I didnt presand sanded really smooth too, so now my presanding has been downgraded to a super quick once over with a thick sponge.

Oh, and I was only using the flashlight on the primer to look for the fibers showing through. Im not being overly critical here.

End result: it didnt have any build, but it didnt need any either. I topcoated, and they came out looking good. Exactly like the ones I didnt prime, and sanded the first coat, as a matter of fact... I really think I could have gotten the exact same result with BIN, without the headache of oil. Im still trying dial in my spray technique with this advance. Its one of those paints where I fog on my coat, and it looks like it needs more or there will be holidays, but I have to stop myself. I thin it down just a touch, with water, to make sure it flows out

I have one more set of doors to do, and since I already have my oil setup there, I'll do them the same way. 

There will be two more doors I cant do yet. Im gonna try the latex undercoater one more time on them without the extensive presand just to see if that was the problem. Id MUCH rather figure out how to make that work than use that oil, no matter how easy it sands.

And no, I cant test this at home. Whats the difference between taking the doors home, and doing them there? Thats why I was doing a few of them at a time.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

kentdalimp said:


> Can you buy Lacquer Undercoat anymore? We can't in California, but from what I've read of your troubles, Lacquer would be the way to go for the primer. When I did residential, we used it on all the woodwork (Including the Bare MDF Built-ins) Builds high, drys fast, sands smooth, but it smells like Lacquer.
> 
> Just my $.02


I was contemplating that, until Ride mentioned a possible adhesion problem.

BM does sell it though, and I'd much rather use that than oil.

I had a talk with my GC yesterday about this whole thing. Im gonna make him at least cover my material cost of the primer, and my bids, including salready submitted ones, are going cover this kind of thing. My contract is for one sand and two coats. Anything extra is fully charged, from now on. If they werent already losing there ass on this job, I'd hit them up for additional labor too. Its more important to me to secure all the future work from this company, and there is a LOT of it, than to backcharge them right now. They had a really bad project manager, and the new on is trying to make things run a LOT smoother, and we've developed a good working relationship.

So, if I even have to use advance again, Im gonna use the advance primer, and charge the builder for it. Problem solved. 

I also have to say this again. It sacralidge, I know, but last year, I HAD to use Behr waterborne alkyd in a huge, high end home, and it works GREAT. It sprays nice, gets rock hard, looks smooth as hell, and its only $25 a gallon. The only reason I would hesitate to use it again, is I wouldnt trust any kind of color match from HD.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

> Im gonna use the advance primer


I don't care for the advance primer, I don't carry it in my store anymore, sits on the shelf too long.. 046, 024 or stix are my favorite.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Heres a pic of the wood fibers on the door in good light and close up:

Then heres a pic of some runs!.... dammit. I get them once in a while always in the same spot, up top.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I don't care for the advance primer, I don't carry it in my store anymore, sits on the shelf too long.. 046, 024 or stix are my favorite.


Gonna give a reason why??


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Some questions*



Woodco said:


> Heres a pic of the wood fibers on the door in good light and close up:
> 
> Then heres a pic of some runs!.... dammit. I get them once in a while always in the same spot, up top.


Woodco, can you give a quick (and numbered) blow by blow of all the stages this door has been through, from sanding the prime coat the door came with up until this photo was taken? After doing this, do you have a game plan or are you asking for what others might do in this specific situation to make the door smooth? Or both? I have a couple of ideas, but I don't want to waste your time if you already know what you are going to do.....and you probably have a better idea of what to do than I do.

One thing I would advise for the future is to do what lilpaintchic said: give the pre-primed door a gentle sanding to knock down any nubs, then prime over the cheap factory primer with something that won't swell the MDF and can be sanded smooth before applying any top coat.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

The age- old saying is still true, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! MDF is MDF and you can't change that fact.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, can you give a quick (and numbered) blow by blow of all the stages this door has been through, from sanding the prime coat the door came with up until this photo was taken? After doing this, do you have a game plan or are you asking for what others might do in this specific situation to make the door smooth? Or both? I have a couple of ideas, but I don't want to waste your time if you already know what you are going to do.....and you probably have a better idea of what to do than I do.
> 
> One thing I would advise for the future is to do what lilpaintchic said: give the pre-primed door a gentle sanding to knock down any nubs, then prime over the cheap factory primer with something that won't swell the MDF and can be sanded smooth before applying any top coat.
> 
> futtyos


I've already done that. you must have missed it. Im trying to figure out the easiest way to make them smooth, process and product, with the least amount of steps, and the least pain in the ass product to use. in the future, Im gonna try the advance primer ( and charge accordingly) and if that doesnt work, BIN.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> I've already done that. you must have missed it. Im trying to figure out the easiest way to make them smooth, process and product, with the least amount of steps, and the least pain in the ass product to use. in the future, Im gonna try the advance primer ( and charge accordingly) and if that doesnt work, BIN.


Bad news...bin isn't gonna stop you from over sanding, it's not going to build high enough to fill the fibers either...
Good news, once you figure out what works for you, you won't have to do it again!
Happy painting!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Gonna give a reason why??


046: High solids medium build, easy sanding, quick dry, pretty good leveling, good adhesion to most surfaces.
024: High build alkyd, easy sanding , low odor. Everything you would expect of a good alkyd primer.
Stix: Stix does Stick..

Advance 790, long cure time like other alkyd, sanding is ok. Likes: soap&water cleanup and good holdout.

I don't see the _need_ for a specialty primer when all purpose ones do the job just fine.

As for why i stopped carrying it? it sits on my shelf too long. I have 4 gallons over a year old already.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> I've already done that. you must have missed it. Im trying to figure out the easiest way to make them smooth, process and product, with the least amount of steps, and the least pain in the ass product to use. in the future, Im gonna try the advance primer ( and charge accordingly) and if that doesnt work, BIN.


I don't use Advance but am familiar with it's properties. I see that the Advance Primer is also a waterborne product. As such, I have to wonder if it might not result in some fiber raising as well. Maybe someone who uses both might be able to give some feedback on this. 
Another reason I don't use Advance is they recommend you only use their primer in order to get optimal results. Of course that may just be a marketing ploy on BM's part and all companies do some of that since they want you to use only their products. But it seems their products are much more forgiving in terms of what types of primers they can be applied over than what Advance appears to be.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

> recommend you only use their primer in order to get optimal results.


Its part of the 'advance' system so of course it is the first product recommended. All paint companies do this. In the technical sheets it recommends the 792, 046/023, HP04/P06 depending on the substrate.

046 is my favorite primer for most surfaces


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*What I would do*



Woodco said:


> I've already done that. you must have missed it. Im trying to figure out the easiest way to make them smooth, process and product, with the least amount of steps, and the least pain in the ass product to use. in the future, Im gonna try the advance primer ( and charge accordingly) and if that doesnt work, BIN.


Earlier this year I painted several MDF doors, each having 1 recessed panel with bevels like the ones on your doors. I recalled how brushing paint over MDF trim that was factory primed went. The paint got sucked into the trim immediately, so I decided to seal the doors first with Gardz after a quick sponge sand to get any nubs. The Gardz soaked into the cheap factory primer and darkened it as water would darken a white cotton t-shirt. After the Gardz was dry, I did a nub sand, then brushed the beveled edge and out onto the recessed panel about a 1/4". I used an artist's brush that basically does not leave any brush marks. After the cut in dried I rolled the flat surfaces with a 1/4" mini roller from SW and everything looked great - as smooth a finish I could get without spraying.

On the next job I refurbished the doors that were already there using an orbital sander (lots of sanding!), then skim coating whatever heavy orange peal was left on both sides twice with Durabond, sanding smooth, coat with Gardz, then paint. They came out pretty good.

On the last job I scraped and sanded the heavy wooden front door. I sanded down to bare wood in a few places, skim coated with Durabond, sanded smooth, then sealed with Gardz. After applying 2 finish coats I can see where the Gardz slightly raised the grain of the wood, but the HO can't really see it. If I were to do it again, I would carefully prime the bare wood with BIN, then go over everything with Gardz. I like using Gardz over a skim coat of Durabond as it soaks in and glues and solidifies the Durabond to hopefully prevent it from chipping as the coat of Durabond is so thin.

My thoughts on the MDF in the last photos you posted are as follows: I would sand it as smooth as I could with an orbital sander connected to a vac, then prime it with something that won't swell the MDF fibers. Next I might skim coat it with MH Ready Patch or something else that is not water based, sand smooth, prime again, sand lightly, then see how a finish coat goes on.

On new MDF doors I would give them a light nub sand first, then put a coat of Gardz on, nub sand after drying, then top coat with brush and roller as I mentioned above. Since you are spraying, I would suggest a primer that sands well with a light sanding. If you are careful not to sand down far enough to expose the fibers, a water based primer might work. Gardz did not seem to cause any swelling of fibers as long as the factory prime coat was covering the MDF.

Regardless of all the nonesense I have written above, I think the main point here is that factory prime coats over MDF are not to be trusted and must be primed over before anything else is done.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> Bad news...bin isn't gonna stop you from over sanding, it's not going to build high enough to fill the fibers either...
> Good news, once you figure out what works for you, you won't have to do it again!
> Happy painting!


I FOGGED a coat of thinned alkyd primer, and they sanded easily and smooth, and the fibers did not swell andshow through the topcoat. 

It was almost exactly like spraying BIN, except more sticky and PITA.

What I have figured out, is that this has nothing to do with build, its about sealing off the fibers, so they dont swell. Anything waterborne makes the fibers swell, and if I sand them back smooth, the next waterborne coat makes them swell again. Its not about build, its about putting a sandable layer thats waterproof. I guess I could put 8 coats of waterborne on there, but that aint happening. 

And no, Im not spraying Gardz on them....


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*No water on MDF*



Woodco said:


> I FOGGED a coat of thinned alkyd primer, and they sanded easily and smooth, and the fibers did not swell andshow through the topcoat.
> 
> It was almost exactly like spraying BIN, except more sticky and PITA.
> 
> ...


Woodco, after all you have been through I don't blame you for not wating to apply Gardz or any other water based primer onto those MDF doors. What alkyd primer did you end up using?

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> I FOGGED a coat of thinned alkyd primer, and they sanded easily and smooth, and the fibers did not swell andshow through the topcoat.
> 
> It was almost exactly like spraying BIN, except more sticky and PITA.
> 
> ...


The one advantage of having at least some primer build is that you can sand a bit to achieve a smooth finish without worrying about burning through. The build just gives you a bit of wiggle room should your primer coat need a little TLC.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

RH said:


> The one advantage of having at least some primer build is that you can sand a bit to achieve a smooth finish without worrying about burning through. The build just gives you a bit of wiggle room should your primer coat need a little TLC.


Yeah, obviously more build is preferable, but it didnt make a bit of difference on these doors. I used seal grip alkyd primer. I wrote about the pump/tip problems I had, which is why I had to fog it on so lightly.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, after all you have been through I don't blame you for not wating to apply Gardz or any other water based primer onto those MDF doors. What alkyd primer did you end up using?
> 
> futtyos



I wouldnt spray Gardz on them because that would be the absolute wrong kind of primer to use, even if waterborne was working.:vs_no_no_no:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Not Spraying Gardz*



Woodco said:


> I wouldnt spray Gardz on them because that would be the absolute wrong kind of primer to use, even if waterborne was working.:vs_no_no_no:


Woodco, after reading about your experience spraying Gardz, I would be very hesitant to spray it myself. As far as rolling an even coat of Gardz over factory primed MDF, I did it and it worked great! The Gardz wetted and soaked through the cheap factory primer and after it thoroughly dried, the top coats went over the Gardz very well.

I didn't come up with this idea myself. Several years ago I painted my first MDF factory primed trim on some door jambs. The MDF sucked the paint off my brush like a vacuum. Then I read an article by Jack Pauhl regarding applying Gardz over factory primed MDF:

http://www.jackpauhl.com/brushing-mdf-so-good-youll-wet-yourself/

Shortly after that I came upon a job where I had about 40 feet of pre-primed MDF crown molding to paint - in blood red semi-gloss. I brushed a couple coats of Gardz over the molding and the top coats did not get sucked into the surface like my earlier experience.

With this experience in mind, I decided to Gardz several pre-primed MDF doors and for whatever reason, it worked out very well. If I had sanded through the factory prime coat down to the MDF first, I think I would have used a non-water based primer, but I didn't, so I used Gardz. 

I am sure many here could come up with better ways of approaching pre-primed MDF, but my experience talls me that Gardz does work.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

No. Just no. Putting Gardz on any doors, trim, or anything that needs sanding is a TERRIBLE idea.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I agree. I use gardz on drywall like many here and Jack himself have. It doesn't sand so it's only applied after I have gone over everything. To me I find it unbelievable that he gets all the trim sanded perfect, holes filled perfect on the first shot every time.




On another note I see BM 024 recommended above. How does it compare to bm217 for the purposes of interior trim both spray and brush?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

sayn3ver said:


> On another note I see BM 024 recommended above. How does it compare to bm217 for the purposes of interior trim both spray and brush?


024: higher build (1.8 vs 1.4 mil) but longer dry time (8 vs 4 hour), good leveling. 217 sands a bit easier.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz on pre-primed MDF*



sayn3ver said:


> I agree. I use gardz on drywall like many here and Jack himself have. It doesn't sand so it's only applied after I have gone over everything. To me I find it unbelievable that he gets all the trim sanded perfect, holes filled perfect on the first shot every time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you haven't tried Gardz directly over pre-primed MDF you might look around for a few feet of trim and try the Gardz on it. The whole point about applying Gardz over the factory primer is that the MDF with a cheap factory primer acts like a black hole that sucks the paint in so fast your brush almost sticks to it and stops moving. If you have to sand the MDF so much that fibers start becoming visible, perhaps it would be wiser not to be using MDF in the first place. The Gardz also gets sucked up so much that it leaves very little in the form of either brush strokes or stipple, even with 2 coats.

My concern with cheap factory primer is that it will be the weak link, adherance-wise, to anything that is applied on top of it. Gardz visibly can be seen to penetrate the factory primer. I am guessing that the Gardz soaks into and glues down the factory primer, but that is just my intuitive WAG. That is why Gardz is recommended over contractors wall and ceiling paint so that the cheap, old paint doesn't start coming off onto the roller cover as one is backrolling. What I have experienced is that Gardz leaves a very smooth surface over pre-primed MDF for the top coats of paint to adhere to.

Some here complain that it just isn't right to apply Gardz over any trim because it is not sandable. I must live in a different enviroment than those because even though Gardz doesn't sand to a powder, it nub sands over pre-primed MDF well enough for my purposes. And speaking of factory primed MDF ...... if anyone cared enough about what material to be used for trim in the first place, it definately wouldn't be MDF, at least in my opinion. That stuff is garbage as far as I'm concerned. It seems odd to me to demand best practices on top of such an inferior product as MDF. I use Gardz over it because I have found that it improves my chances of getting a nice finish without a terrible struggle.

I can understand myself getting beat up here about Gardz, but Jack Pauhl? How about Damon T and kdpaint? Check out their comments regarding using Gardz over pre-primed MDF:

http://www.painttalk.com/f6/priming-mdf-bare-trim-22578/

Or maybe you might check what Surreal Painting has to say about top coating MDF doors with Gardz first to avoid getting a rough finish:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/mdf-doors-45138/

These PT members are not espousing theories, they are telling you what their results are. The only way one can find out whether all those I have mentioned as well as myself are not out of our minds is to try using Gardz as described above. As far as Woodco's experience spraying Gardz goes, I can only tell him that while I have never sprayed Gardz, I have very successfully rolled it onto new drywall as well as skim coated ceilings and walls with the ensuing top coat being very uniform. I am still curious to see if he will ROLL out Gardz onto new drywall instead of spraying it.

I don't claim that Gardz is a fix for everything, but it is good to know what it can do if used properly in the right situations.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

How many times do I have to tell you, that I went back ROLLED gardz on a crap ton of walls to even it all out in this house? Thats what I did , when I realized it made everything flash. 

Oh, and some of those walls got texture patches. Some of the patches I Gardzed, and some of them I didnt, like the patches in closets in bad light walls. I then applied two topcoats to the all walls that were patched. Guess what? you cant tell the difference where I gardzed, and where I just put paint on the fresh texture...

Gardz has its place. Doors and trim are NOT it, I dont care if a couple people do it. You need something sandable. Gardz is NOT sandable.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Yes, I know.*



Woodco said:


> How many times do I have to tell you, that I went back ROLLED gardz on a crap ton of walls to even it all out in this house? Thats what I did , when I realized it made everything flash.
> 
> Oh, and some of those walls got texture patches. Some of the patches I Gardzed, and some of them I didnt, like the patches in closets in bad light walls. I then applied two topcoats to the all walls that were patched. Guess what? you cant tell the difference where I gardzed, and where I just put paint on the fresh texture...
> 
> Gardz has its place. Doors and trim are NOT it, I dont care if a couple people do it. You need something sandable. Gardz is NOT sandable.


Woodco, I am not talking about spraying Gardz and then backrolling it. I have never done that. I take your word for it that it didn't work out so well for you. All I have ever done is brush and roll Gardz. I am still curious to see if you find any difference between spraying and backrolling (which you have said a number of times that you have done) vs just rolling without spraying (which I don't recall you saying that you have done).

If you have just rolled a first coat of Gardz, then re-rolled to make an even sheen as the directions say to do, please point out where I missed your description of doing this.

As to applying a coat of Gardz to pre-primed MDF trim and/or doors and then finding out that it does not work, please let me know about your experience doing this such that I know that you are in a position to say that it doesn't work. If you have never done this and still want to convince me that it is just plain wrong and a bad idea, well let me say this about that:


futtyos

P.S. I am not trying to pin you to the wall. From what I read of your posts, you (and most others here at PT) are heads and tails above me as a painter. I originally came here to learn from those who know more than I do so I don't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. After reading bunches of good things from lots of you guys and gals, I felt ready to put my 2 cents in on some things from my own experience. Perhaps it is time for the mods to relegate me to the DIY forum? :O


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> How many times do I have to tell you, that I went back ROLLED gardz on a crap ton of walls to even it all out in this house? Thats what I did , when I realized it made everything flash.
> 
> Oh, and some of those walls got texture patches. Some of the patches I Gardzed, and some of them I didnt, like the patches in closets in bad light walls. I then applied two topcoats to the all walls that were patched. Guess what? you cant tell the difference where I gardzed, and where I just put paint on the fresh texture...
> 
> Gardz has its place. Doors and trim are NOT it, I dont care if a couple people do it. You need something sandable. Gardz is NOT sandable.


I’ve been following this thread pretty carefully and don’t recall you stating anything about you using Guardz on the walls. I must have missed it - even after going back and looking for it. Can you tell me what #post it was in?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> I’ve been following this thread pretty carefully and don’t recall you stating anything about you using Guardz on the walls. I must have missed it - even after going back and looking for it. Can you tell me what #post it was in?


I think it was in a different thread.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Yeah, this is the house that I sprayed gardz as primer, and found out a lot my topcoats all flashed. The downstairs ceiling flashed really bad. I rerolled it probably four times to get it right. I had a bunch of the walls first coated, too. I rerolled all the major walls with gardz, to even it out. It was about half and half raw walls, and first coated walls. I got the upstairs trim done, and cut and rolled the walls, and am now about to spray the downstairs trim. Damn. I just realized the paint stores are probably closed today. Thats a problem...


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Maybe it's just me but gardz just doesn't seem like an appropriate primer to use over anything with a sheen. It would lessen its effectiveness not being able to soak into the underlying surface. So trim and doors would be a no go for me. Just my opinion.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Damn. I just realized the paint stores are probably closed today. Thats a problem...


I am open just take a quick trip to MT.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

The suggestion is to use gardz on factory primed and or raw mdf which is indeed like a sponge. 

I understand the point as new drywall is also a sponge. 

I just know that after that first prime coat not only am I sanding but I'm looking for spots I may have missed. 

I have tried sanding gardz before on walls and besides scuff sanding to knock off nibs I just would never want to put it on trim. I'm sure most of it does soak into the factory primer. 

If I was brushing mdf trim I'd consider trying gardz. It just wouldn't be a product I'd want to use if I was spraying trim for a glass like finish. 

I'd still feel more comfortable using thinned shellac, thinned oil, or solvent lacquer. 








getrex said:


> Maybe it's just me but gardz just doesn't seem like an appropriate primer to use over anything with a sheen. It would lessen its effectiveness not being able to soak into the underlying surface. So trim and doors would be a no go for me. Just my opinion.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*question and experiment*



getrex said:


> Maybe it's just me but gardz just doesn't seem like an appropriate primer to use over anything with a sheen. It would lessen its effectiveness not being able to soak into the underlying surface. So trim and doors would be a no go for me. Just my opinion.


Getrex, I agree with your first two sentences above. My question is why you wouldn't use Gardz over trim and doors? Specifically, why would you not use Gardz over factory pre-primed MDF trim and doors?

You might try a simple experiment. Go get two pieces of MDF pre-primed trim. Home Depot has a roll-around trim cut-off bin where you should be able to buy some cheap sections of MDF trim. Apply Gardz to one piece, but not the other. If the pieces are long enough, put a second coat of Gardz on one half of the first coat of Gardz. Paint both pieces with trim paint and make a note of what happens. Then tell us here what your results were.

futtyos


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

I should clarify that 99% of the work I do is repaints, so all of the trim and doors already have a semi gloss topcoat. As for priming mdf.. I use coverstain. If nothing else can be pulled from this thread it is that using a water based primer on mdf can cause a swelling problem. So why not just use something that you know won't have an issue?

I get that you like Gardz, but you probably shouldn't use it for everything.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Getrex, I agree with your first two sentences above. My question is why you wouldn't use Gardz over trim and doors? Specifically, why would you not use Gardz over factory pre-primed MDF trim and doors?


Dude. Take some fine grit sandpaper, and try to sand down something you gardzed. You will find out very quickly why its not a good idea to use it.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*It sands for me*



Woodco said:


> Dude. Take some fine grit sandpaper, and try to sand down something you gardzed. You will find out very quickly why its not a good idea to use it.


Woodco, while I will admit that Gardz does not sand to a powder, I am able to sand it well enough to get a smooth topcoat over MDF, which Gardz gets mostly sucked into anyway. If I apply too thick a coat of Gardz, I have found it a bit clogging to sand, so when I apply Gardz over the factory primed MDF I am carefull to roll thin coats so it doesn't gum up when nub sanding. I can see your point if I was spraying doors and trim, but I don't. The only time I use Gardz on doors or trim is when it is cheap factory primed MDF or if I have skim coated the door with Durabond. Rolling and brushing paint on top of Gardz over pre-primed MDF works very well for me. Perhaps there is something better to prime or seal over the cheap factory primer that goes over MDF. If anyone here at PT has done both Gardz and something better over pre-primed MDF, please let me know.

I have to repeat one of the main reasons I like Gardz so much. Years ago I used to strip and wax (acrylic finish actually) resilient flooring. I stripped one floor that had old and worn tiles. I put a coat of acrylic floor finish on and it left no shine except at near the walls where people had not walked. I put 2 more coats on and they both dissappeared into the floor. I went to my local janitorial supply house and asked what I could do. The owner told me that I needed to put down a sealer first, then the finish coats. I went back, stripped the floor, applied 2 good coats of acrylic floor sealer, then 3 coats of floor finish. The first coat of finish over the sealer looked shiny compared to without the sealer. The 2nd coat of finish made the floor even shinier. The 3rd coat made the floor look fabulous!

I used to clean offices. About 20 years ago some lawyers I cleaned for moved into a building with a stone floor in the entrance area. The stones were irregular and had thick, uneven grout lines between the stones that were very wide. The area was about 15' x 15'. I gave the owner a price of $500.00 to strip and finish the floor. He reluctantly agreed. While I was in the process of stripping the floor, he came by and could see the difference between the muddy unstripped floor and what I had stripped. He said it looked like night and day and followed that by saying that now he understood why I was charging so much after seeing how crappy the floor had become over the years before he bought the building. I struggled to get that floor very clean, then, since the floor was stone and very porous, I applied 3 coats of sealer and 3 coats of finish. That was 20 years ago. The floor still looks great and has never been refinished or had any more acrylic finish put onto it. If anyone here knows of walls or ceilings that get heavier abracive traffic than floors, please let me know.

When I first came across Gardz, I saw that it looked like acrylic floor finish and sealer, that it had the viscosity of acrylic floor finish and sealer and that it had the banana oil smell of acrylic floor finish and sealer. I was not surprised, then, to find out that Gardz was modeled after Scotch Paint's Draw-Tite which in turn was modeled after an acrylic concrete sealer.

Acrylic floor sealers and finishes are generally not sanded, so I can understand why some here do not like Gardz for this reason. All I can say is that perhaps because of my work background, I have a different view of what Gardz acts like and can do. If I was doing high end work with good materials to apply sealers, primers and finishes to, I wouldn't even have to think about using Gardz. MDF is low end crap that needs some creativity to be able to get a good finish on. If in fact you have geared this post to having problems with getting a desired finish onto pre-primed MDF doors, I hope you find a solution that you will share with us here.

In the meantime, dinner is waiting. Gardz soup! Deelish!

futtyos


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Fascinating


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Fascinating


Geeze... talk about a voice from my childhood! Good to hear from you again Dan.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Man I thought I had a hard head...:whistling2:


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## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

He used Gardz instead of shampoo once to keep things from leaking out...


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

getrex said:


> He used Gardz instead of shampoo once to keep things from leaking out...


Lololol


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, while I will admit that Gardz does not sand to a powder, I am able to sand it well enough to get a smooth topcoat over MDF, which Gardz gets mostly sucked into anyway. If I apply too thick a coat of Gardz, I have found it a bit clogging to sand, so when I apply Gardz over the factory primed MDF I am carefull to roll thin coats so it doesn't gum up when nub sanding. I can see your point if I was spraying doors and trim, but I don't. The only time I use Gardz on doors or trim is when it is cheap factory primed MDF or if I have skim coated the door with Durabond. Rolling and brushing paint on top of Gardz over pre-primed MDF works very well for me. Perhaps there is something better to prime or seal over the cheap factory primer that goes over MDF. If anyone here at PT has done both Gardz and something better over pre-primed MDF, please let me know.
> 
> I have to repeat one of the main reasons I like Gardz so much. Years ago I used to strip and wax (acrylic finish actually) resilient flooring. I stripped one floor that had old and worn tiles. I put a coat of acrylic floor finish on and it left no shine except at near the walls where people had not walked. I put 2 more coats on and they both dissappeared into the floor. I went to my local janitorial supply house and asked what I could do. The owner told me that I needed to put down a sealer first, then the finish coats. I went back, stripped the floor, applied 2 good coats of acrylic floor sealer, then 3 coats of floor finish. The first coat of finish over the sealer looked shiny compared to without the sealer. The 2nd coat of finish made the floor even shinier. The 3rd coat made the floor look fabulous!
> 
> ...


You may be a Gardzahohic, I not sure but AA may have a program for that, keep the faith brother.


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## XYZ (Sep 27, 2017)

futtyos said:


> Woodco, while I will admit that Gardz does not sand to a powder, I am able to sand it well enough to get a smooth topcoat over MDF, which Gardz gets mostly sucked into anyway. If I apply too thick a coat of Gardz, I have found it a bit clogging to sand, so when I apply Gardz over the factory primed MDF I am carefull to roll thin coats so it doesn't gum up when nub sanding. I can see your point if I was spraying doors and trim, but I don't. The only time I use Gardz on doors or trim is when it is cheap factory primed MDF or if I have skim coated the door with Durabond. Rolling and brushing paint on top of Gardz over pre-primed MDF works very well for me. Perhaps there is something better to prime or seal over the cheap factory primer that goes over MDF. If anyone here at PT has done both Gardz and something better over pre-primed MDF, please let me know.
> 
> I have to repeat one of the main reasons I like Gardz so much. Years ago I used to strip and wax (acrylic finish actually) resilient flooring. I stripped one floor that had old and worn tiles. I put a coat of acrylic floor finish on and it left no shine except at near the walls where people had not walked. I put 2 more coats on and they both dissappeared into the floor. I went to my local janitorial supply house and asked what I could do. The owner told me that I needed to put down a sealer first, then the finish coats. I went back, stripped the floor, applied 2 good coats of acrylic floor sealer, then 3 coats of floor finish. The first coat of finish over the sealer looked shiny compared to without the sealer. The 2nd coat of finish made the floor even shinier. The 3rd coat made the floor look fabulous!
> 
> ...


LOL, futtyos I had really good laughter, your sense of humor is great considering the 'pressure' you are gathering protecting GARDZ like a guard dog :vs_laugh:

I enjoy reading (and learning from) your detailed posts, and the above post is no exception.

In next few days I'm going to do green painters tape adhesion test of GARDZ on a piece of factory primed MDF trim from HomeDepot. 
I read the article by Jack Pauhl 
http://www.jackpauhl.com/brushing-mdf-so-good-youll-wet-yourself/
and I like the idea of using GARDZ instead of an oil primer.
If I can I will use oil primer but some jobs are out of question for oil so water based GARDZ would be great, tho I'm aware that GARDZ has also smell but not as strong and long lasting as oil primers.

In order not to highjack this thread I'm going to make a thread and share my results using GARDZ and XIM REPAIRZ (previously RESTORZ II) sealing red brick wall.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*TY*



XYZ said:


> LOL, futtyos I had really good laughter, your sense of humor is great considering the 'pressure' you are gathering protecting GARDZ like a guard dog :vs_laugh:
> 
> I enjoy reading (and learning from) your detailed posts, and the above post is no exception.
> 
> ...


XYZ, I appreciate the kind words. Perhaps I might more properly be called a Gardz dog? Any way, I hope you realize that I make all this stuff up as I go along. If the mods ever catch on, I am sure they will relegate me to the DIY forum, so don't say anything.

I did take a look at ZIM Repairz and it looks interesting. The TDS says it can take up to 2 oz of colorant. I like the transparent Gardz for a first coat on new drywall, repairs and skim coats because it soaks in and strengthens the surface material, but it does not help with pointing up like a solid white primer does. Perhaps Repairz might do both. I am going to look into this. Thanks for the heads up.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Or Woodco the original poster of this could have skim coated these doors, sanded them down etc. and made a major project, which would make no sense monetarily! You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!:vs_cry:


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