# dry time



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

i'm curious. I had a decorina/"expert painter" throw a fit yesterday because the paint i sold her had a 4 hour dry to recoat time on the label. She said she has never used a paint that had a 4 hour recoat time i her life. (she apparently uses a "bunch" of Benjamin Moore yet she didn't have any idea what product she used. She had never heard of Aura!). My question is, since i don't have all the paints available in my hillbilly paint lab, what are the listed dry to recoat times of some of the paint you are using? Is 2-4 hours uncommon or something? I'm talking about matte/eggshell.

AND she was complaining about this while she was using the product during a 100% humidity, 64 degree f day. I really don't think a four hour recoat time would be all that unusual in these conditions do you?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PACman said:


> i'm curious. I had a decorina/"expert painter" throw a fit yesterday because the paint i sold her had a 4 hour dry to recoat time on the label. She said she has never used a paint that had a 4 hour recoat time i her life. (she apparently uses a "bunch" of Benjamin Moore yet she didn't have any idea what product she used. She had never heard of Aura!). My question is, since i don't have all the paints available in my hillbilly paint lab, what are the listed dry to recoat times of some of the paint you are using? Is 2-4 hours uncommon or something? I'm talking about matte/eggshell.
> 
> AND she was complaining about this while she was using the product during a 100% humidity, 64 degree f day. I really don't think a four hour recoat time would be all that unusual in these conditions do you?



Regal, Aura, Natura all 1 hour recoat. ultraspec and ben eggshell is 2 hour recoat, 100% humidity I usually tell people to double the listed recoat time to be safe.


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## Eric Brancard (Jun 13, 2019)

I think Scuff-X shows a 4 hour re-coat, 314 WB Impervo shows 8 hours and Advance shows 16 hours.

*Scuff X shows 2-3 on the Matte/Eggshell.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Most of the SW line says 4 hours. I really don't understand why this woman got into such a tizzy over it!


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Temperature and humidity are the biggest factors in drying times no matter what paint is used.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Doubt it had anything to do with dry time, maybe she was angling for something. Discount or freebie. Some people like to do that just because.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Didnt you tell her that noone pays attention to dry time specs anyway?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Most latex paints are 3-4 hr recoat. (Theoretically ). Except as coco says the BM lines are 1 hr. Which is nice for a quick turnover. I'm still on the search for a good exterior product with a 1 hr recoat for exterior doors! Haven't found that yet. 
I need to do a metal one soon. Take off hinges, prep, spray and re hang in 1 day..Thoughts 

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I've never had a problem rehanging exterior doors the same day, no matter what I sprayed on them (latex paint wise, anyway).

I usually just spray them in place, and brush the back edge in though.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Most latex paints are 3-4 hr recoat. (Theoretically ). Except as coco says the BM lines are 1 hr. Which is nice for a quick turnover. I'm still on the search for a good exterior product with a 1 hr recoat for exterior doors! Haven't found that yet.
> I need to do a metal one soon. Take off hinges, prep, spray and re hang in 1 day..Thoughts
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


PPG Breakthrough is 2 hour and is sort of meant mostly for metal. 

Besides the aforementioned BM all having shorter recoat times (which make me hate using it, I can get a lot of flashing issues on some substrates...) BM Ben says 2-3, I think the satin and semi sheens of Regal are that, too. 

A lot of Behr and Glidden stuff is 2 or 3 hours. 

Most people ignore the dry time specs totally and just put their hand on it and go "looks dry to me!" and recoat it. Oh well.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I painted for 40 years, and with ordinary latex products under normal conditions, virtually never observed the recoat time. Usually were second coating in half the recommended time. Never had a problem (well I have had problems, but none due to recoating when "dry to the touch").:biggrin:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Somebody on here a few years ago said they set up a 240V construction heater to make the paint dry faster. All residential repaints. He must have been making that up. What are ya gonna do when you're painting a bedroom upstairs? String a 100' 240V extension cord through the house and ask the homeowner to pull out their stove so you can hook it up?


I can't remember if I called him out on whether that was a lie or not, but I do remember saying that was one of the worst ideas I'd ever heard.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

i guess i'm just trying to figure out why she was in such an uproar over dry time. Maybe she was worried about making her mani/pedi appointment.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Dry times are like nuclear radiation. If you can't see, touch, taste, smell, or hear it, it's not a problem. Until it is.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

The perfect solution is to just use any of the low/no voc paints. It will be dried and cured before you get it on the wall!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> I've never had a problem rehanging exterior doors the same day, no matter what I sprayed on them (latex paint wise, anyway).
> 
> I usually just spray them in place, and brush the back edge in though.


That actually a good idea. Just tape the crap out of the wall and hinges I guess.. And hope you don't get a big gust of wind..

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Ummm in those conditions how can she expect ANY paint to have a re-coat time under 4hrs?!

Depends on which BM product she’s used to (sounds like none of them? Hah) The Aura Matte is 1hr re-coat but only @ 50% humidity or less. Advance Matte is 16 (4 to touch I believe) but its also like 48% solids n a hybrid.

Most SW are 4hr+...ProMar is 4hr recoat, emerald matte is 4hr, Duration Matte & Flat are 4hr.....


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I think you have to have pretty favorable conditions to achieve the 1hr BM recoat times. Beyond the temp and humidity, the porosity of the surface has a big effect on the dry times as well.

The dry times on the can are based on applying the product in a lab under certain conditions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

For wall paints, I pay no attention to the printed dry time, and I've never met a painter that does. If Im painting a bedroom two coats, Im waiting until the wall is dry, and Im recoating. Im not waiting two hours.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> For wall paints, I pay no attention to the printed dry time, and I've never met a painter that does. If Im painting a bedroom two coats, Im waiting until the wall is dry, and Im recoating. Im not waiting two hours.


 
Because there are so many opportunities for paint film problems to occur due to operator application error and unfavorable environmental conditions, I've made it a point to at least follow recommended recoat times. It's a simple approach that doesn't allow haste to circumvent and dictate the outcome.


And the science accurately represents why paint films should complete the coalescing process.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Because there are so many opportunities for paint film problems to occur due to operator application error and unfavorable environmental conditions, I've made it a point to at least follow recommended recoat times. It's a simple approach that doesn't allow haste to circumvent and dictate the outcome.
> 
> 
> And the science accurately represents why paint films should complete the coalescing process.


I really only push it when I work with others, but on my own I try to follow dry times fairly well. If it's 4 hour recoat I might start the second cut at 3.5 or so, but not 1 hour. 

The biggest things I think happen with not following dry times is offgassing, potentially the house smelling like paint for a long time, and adhesion issues. Some houses you go into and they just smell like paint forever and ever. The theory I've heard is that while the first layer is drying, if you recoat it, the solvents get trapped in and can never fully offgas. Then for adhesion, it's the same, if you recoat too quick, the first layer can never adhere 100% from not being able to offgas out the solvents quickly. 

I think BM's short dry times are less because they love painters, and more because of liability for this reason. If there's an offgassing issue and someone gets sick from it, on a warranty claim they could potentially have to tear a room down to studs and start over. Shorter dry times imo do lead to more chances of flashing, but a lot of HOs don't even notice flashing, and throwing some more gallons at the painter to do it again costs them nothing compared to tearing a room down to studs. 

I wish more people would at least follow the can recommendations on dry times, I do myself on my own jobs, but when you're subbing with others, you do what your "boss" tells you, even if it's dumb. And of course being young and looking younger, you get stupid lectures about "I've been painting 30 years blah blah blah shut up with your science ****."


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> Because there are so many opportunities for paint film problems to occur due to operator application error and unfavorable environmental conditions, I've made it a point to at least follow recommended recoat times. It's a simple approach that doesn't allow haste to circumvent and dictate the outcome.
> 
> 
> And the science accurately represents why paint films should complete the coalescing process.


Neat. Im not in a million years turning a five hour job into a two day job cuz the can says I should. In my 20+ years of painting this way, theres never been a single issue.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Neat. Im not in a million years turning a five hour job into a two day job cuz the can says I should. In my 20+ years of painting this way, theres never been a single issue.


 
Neat? I'm just stating a fact. I could careless what others do. But any painter who claims to be a journey level professional and offers their expertise based on experience and coating knowledge, should also suggest to the audience the implementation of best painting practices. Otherwise, you're doing the industry a disservice.


Painters shouldn't simply dismiss science and warranty conditions just because they didn't allow enough time to follow the manufacturer's recommendations. And that's the problem with the liquid building product known as paint. There's such a wide range of what is considered acceptable in this industry, along with little to no over site and competitive bidding that enables haste , that it leaves it susceptible to dumbing down.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

celicaxx said:


> ...The biggest things I think happen with not following dry times is offgassing, potentially the house smelling like paint for a long time, and adhesion issues. Some houses you go into and they just smell like paint forever and ever. The theory I've heard is that while the first layer is drying, if you recoat it, the solvents get trapped in and can never fully offgas. Then for adhesion, it's the same, if you recoat too quick, the first layer can never adhere 100% from not being able to offgas out the solvents quickly...."


 
You're exactly right. The vehicle, or solvent, of paint has a couple of purposes as I understand it. One, it provides a means to carry the resin. Two, it aids in the film formation through the process known as coalescing, or evaporation. There are physics and chemistry that take place during coalescing that allow the resins and binders that remain on a surface, to perform to their optimum level. This includes adhesion, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, UV control, etc.


Retarding the film formation compromises the properties and performance of the paint. Of course all of this is at a microscopic level that we cannot see. So for many painters, it doesn't exist. All that matters is that it feels dry which means the second coat won't smear it off, and the final resulting color and sheen looks great to a layman. typically the homeowner. 


And since interiors are rarely subjected to the environmental conditions of exteriors, corners are often cut in the interest of time. After all, time is king in painting.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Neat. Im not in a million years turning a five hour job into a two day job cuz the can says I should. In my 20+ years of painting this way, theres never been a single issue.


I managed to get in about 40+ years and ran one of the most successful operations in my area. I really don't know how I managed that, adhering to the philosophy you outline above. Just lucky I guess.:surprise:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I managed to get in about 40+ years and ran one of the most successful operations in my area. I really don't know how I managed that, adhering to the philosophy you outline above. Just lucky I guess.:surprise:



It's one thing to get by, by the seat of your pants and another to advocate it for others.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Get by by the seat of your pants? Come on. We're talking about walls here. Its not rocket surgery. I maintain that recoat times are GUIDELINES. Thats why we dont hear about paint failures on walls due to recoating too quick, which I am willing to bet at least HALF the interior walls in the entire country were recoated too soon. waiting the correct time under normal conditions ensures 100% there wont be a failure, as opposed to the 99.99% if you recoat sooner. Call me crazy, but I like those odds. 

I guess Im just not big on following rules unless theres a legitimate reason not too. I dont always drive with my hands on 10 and 2, I dont chew my food 32 times per bite, and I will recoat before the time. Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Woodco said:


> Get by by the seat of your pants? Come on. We're talking about walls here. Its not rocket surgery. I maintain that recoat times are GUIDELINES. Thats why we dont hear about paint failures on walls due to recoating too quick, which I am willing to bet at least HALF the interior walls in the entire country were recoated too soon. waiting the correct time under normal conditions ensures 100% there wont be a failure, as opposed to the 99.99% if you recoat sooner. Call me crazy, but I like those odds.
> 
> I guess Im just not big on following rules unless theres a legitimate reason not too. I dont always drive with my hands on 10 and 2, I dont chew my food 32 times per bite, and I will recoat before the time. Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.


How many jobs do you come back to and see years later? Just because you don't know something failed doesn't mean it didn't happen. A failure isn't always outright, but how many jobs have you been on where paint on the wall felt sticky or you could fingernail it off years later? It's usually not crappy paint, it's people not following dry times. (Though not cleaning/priming it is another big cause, usually they go hand in hand...) Of course people will blame the paint, but rarely it's the paint. Never mind the houses that permanently smell like paint. Of your 50% figure, probably a quarter of all houses have garbage like this going on, when it doesn't need to happen. 

I think for profit, you can still follow dry times and be profitable. It just requires different job planning. You can pay the extra money for the products with shorter recoat times (BM) and deal with the possible drawbacks of them, for one. Or, if you're doing a whole house, you can start on first coats in other rooms while you're waiting for the room you did to dry. If you're doing one bedroom spending the money for a Regal or similar probably is ideal so you can be in and out. 

I guess it comes down to how you think of the customer. "Do unto others..." and all. I personally would not want a contractor to do that in my own house, knowing the risks involved with it. 

"Everyone else does this dumb thing, so I'll do it too" isn't a good excuse. In other trades this happens with a lot more disastrous results than paint peeling. For example, in tile, the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) basically found 90% of tiled showers were built wrong in some way. A proper tile job should be able to last without leaks, loose tiles, etc, for 50 years. That industry organization publishes a handbook that is used in lawsuits if a failure happens. Painting, luckily or unluckily is sort of an industry that kind of encourages or even intentionally tries to create failures to keep work going. They figure people will always buy paint. The tile industry meanwhile has competition with vinyl, cultured marble, etc, that people could buy instead of tile, so they proactively try much more than painting to educate people and prevent failures and come up with universal standards and methods and guidelines which really painting doesn't have. My problem with the paint industry is they're happy with the status quo of failure being basically the rule rather than the exception, and though the industry is growing, there are things like vinyl siding vs paint that have come up as competition to the industry.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I've been back to many (over 50%) of my jobs, as the majority of my customers were repeat business. Never once have I seen failure due to recoating before the prescribed dry time. And I have had some jobs where I had to wait longer to recoat than the prescribed time due to ambient conditions. PA is the humidity capitol of the world. It all comes down to common sense. 

It certainly doesn't hurt to follow the recommendations, but if common sense and experience dictate otherwise....Those specs are written by people in a lab with little to no field experience. And they are drawn up to cover their a55. 

Nor have I ever rolled a wall in a W pattern a day in my life . Still I managed to make it through 40+ years "by the seat of my pants". Just lucky I guess, because the odds were clearly not in my favor. I didn't follow the label directions.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.


And there is no basement at the Alamo!:biggrin:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I've been back to many (over 50%) of my jobs, as the majority of my customers were repeat business. Never once have I seen failure due to recoating before the prescribed dry time. And I have had some jobs where I had to wait longer to recoat than the prescribed time due to ambient conditions. PA is the humidity capitol of the world. It all comes down to common sense.
> 
> It certainly doesn't hurt to follow the recommendations, but if common sense and experience dictate otherwise....Those specs are written by people in a lab with little to no field experience. And they are drawn up to cover their a55.
> 
> Nor have I ever rolled a wall in a W pattern a day in my life . Still I managed to make it through 40+ years "by the seat of my pants". Just lucky I guess, because the odds were clearly not in my favor. I didn't follow the label directions.


It's not about how successful YOU were, circumventing product application recommendations, it's about offering the next generation of painters a set of best practices and standards that will ensure the industry's success.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Get by by the seat of your pants? Come on. We're talking about walls here. Its not rocket surgery. I maintain that recoat times are GUIDELINES. Thats why we dont hear about paint failures on walls due to recoating too quick, which I am willing to bet at least HALF the interior walls in the entire country were recoated too soon. waiting the correct time under normal conditions ensures 100% there wont be a failure, as opposed to the 99.99% if you recoat sooner. Call me crazy, but I like those odds.
> 
> I guess Im just not big on following rules unless theres a legitimate reason not too. I dont always drive with my hands on 10 and 2, I dont chew my food 32 times per bite, and I will recoat before the time. Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.


We all love a rebel! But that doesn't mean we should dismantle an entire structure built on best practices because a few cool cats don't like authority. So unless the majority of the industry's tradesman agree that the standards and recommendations we are currently encouraged to follow are hog wash and stifling to profit, these so called rebels are merely rogue painters. And that's Ok.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Most of the SW line says 4 hours. I really don't understand why this woman got into such a tizzy over it!


I just assume most paints are four hours, and I am very happy when they are less. The one that I use the most on interiors is BM RS in eggshell and it has a 1-2 hour recoat time.

Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I just assume most paints are four hours, and I am very happy when they are less. The one that I use the most on interiors is BM RS in eggshell and it has a 1-2 hour recoat time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A600U using Tapatalk


 I remember when some interior latex paints recommended a sixteen hour cure time. And we waited the next day to apply the second coat.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> It's not about how successful YOU were, circumventing product application recommendations, it's about offering the next generation of painters a set of best practices and standards that will ensure the industry's success.


You sir, are a noble man.:vs_cool:


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Get by by the seat of your pants? Come on. We're talking about walls here. Its not rocket surgery. I maintain that recoat times are GUIDELINES. Thats why we dont hear about paint failures on walls due to recoating too quick, which I am willing to bet at least HALF the interior walls in the entire country were recoated too soon. waiting the correct time under normal conditions ensures 100% there wont be a failure, as opposed to the 99.99% if you recoat sooner. Call me crazy, but I like those odds.
> 
> I guess Im just not big on following rules unless theres a legitimate reason not too. I dont always drive with my hands on 10 and 2, I dont chew my food 32 times per bite, and I will recoat before the time. Im a loner Dotty.... A rebel.


Just call Wood, Johnny Yuma,


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Many times the written specifications and application procedures on products’ TDS’s in the coatings industry are “incorrect”, requiring modification by the professional applicator based on experience and knowledge. One that comes to mind was a 2-part wood bleach I used. The TDS stated that it is self-neutralizing..since when do residual lye salts magically self-neutralize? They don’t. I was on a project where my company was finishing the first floor oak flooring, another company finishing the 2nd floor. The applicators on the 2nd floor didn’t neutralize because the TDS stated the product was self neutralizing...we neutralized...the client, architect, and builder were all concerned with the yellowing and discoloration on the 2nd floor oak due to the reactivation of the finish-eating residual lye salts during the finishing process.

Three weeks ago I was applying sealer to mahogany, the TDS stating a theoretical coverage rate of 250-400 sq ft/gal, the TDS stating not to deviate from the stated coverage rates. I knew the rates were incorrect based on experience and general finish knowledge. After calculating the theoretical coverage rates myself, knowing both the wet/dry film thickness and solid content, the correct coverage I came up with was 550 sq ft/gal..after locating an older TDS for the same product, all other things being equal, the stated theoretical coverage rates were 500-550 sq ft/gal. Had I followed the manufacturer’s instructions, I’d potentially be facing a costly strip/refinish due to the pore fill not matching the approved sample.

I sat in on an arbitration for an HO client of mine, the client seeking $350K in damages for catastrophic finish failure on a millwork package finished by others. I had provided neutral expert witness testimony during the arbitration, knowing that a critical step was missed during the application, the step not stated on the TDS. During the discovery process, I spoke to the importer/distributor, the distributor acknowledging the error/omittance on the TDS, telling me that there was an appended piece of literature being provided with any future shipments addressing the issue, with modified procedures. 

Another one that comes to mind was the use of a sealer on limestone flooring, the applicators applying it according to spec. I pulled the contractor aside, indicating that the application was incorrect, the application needing to be drastically modified from the specified procedure and coverage rates stated on the TDS...I was told to mind my own business. I returned to the site the following morning, the finish being gummy like stepping on flypaper. I told the contractor that it could be easily remedied, but had to be done right then and there, requesting the opportunity to correct it, the correction being a simple fix...the sealing of the stone flooring not being my contract or responsibility. I was told to mind my own business, that the flooring was getting 2 more coats according to the TDS. After arguing with the contractor until I was blue in the face, two coats later, the floor couldn’t even be walked on, it was like stepping on chewing gum. The HO came out to the project and let out a shriek when she saw the floor. The floor needed to be stripped by a stone restoration company, costing upwards $10K for the removal of the finish. I was picking the brain of the restoration expert discussing the necessary deviation from the spec in order to achieve the desired result, the expert concurring with my methodology having used the product regularly in the modified fashion, the same sealer being applied against the manufacturer’s specification on the 2nd go, everything looking and performing as it should. 

Another deviation example was experienced a few months ago, a wood finishing product not performing as expected, having to drastically modify the procedure against the manufacturer’s TDS. I pulled out my electronic pH tester as well as some litmus paper, suspecting the pH on the product was drastically off from the stated pH on the SDS. Sure enough it was off by 3. I contacted the manufacturer’s chemist, sending him pics of the pH tests, the manufacturer recalling all of the product and modifying the manufacturing process as a result. It turned out the chemist wasn’t a chemist...

Do you solely rely on manufacturers’ specifications? I don’t...


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Following manufacturer’s specs can also save your A$$....

My first 2 years in business back in the 80’s I experienced what was thought to be catastrophic finish failure on upwards $600K (in 1980’s dollars) of maple cabinetry which was shop finished by myself over the course of 2 years, all with NC lacquer, and all constructed out 1/32” veneers. Every cabinet I finished over a 2-year period failed. Scary? You bet it was. The failure was ultimately determined to be the result of stresses in rotary cut veneers/lather checking, the finishes shattering along the stress lines. I was not held accountable by the design/build firm, having followed the finish manufacturer’s instructions on the TDS. Had I not applied the finishes to spec, I likely would have shared in the liability. Taunton Press’s Fine Woodworking Magazine did a multiple page spread on it and also served as mock-arbitrators in the discovery process, determining both the cause and accountability, as well as providing suggestions to prevent future failure.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

In our eco friendly world sometimes the formula's change faster than the specs.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Following manufacturer’s specs can also save your A$$....


Thanks for your last two posts, Mr. Redux. Excellent examples of how oft times experience trumps manufacture data sheets. And how experience allows you to know when adhering to these specs is critical and should be followed.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

If there is ANY failure of ANY coating, and the end user goes back to the vendor, the FIRST THING THAT VENDOR WILL DO IS DETERMINE IF THE SPEC'S WERE FOLLOWED CORRECTLY! Some products are much more dependent on following those specs than others are. For example conversion varnish. If you vary from the specs as far as catalysation (? Spell check choked on this one!) you will have a real mess on your hands somewhere down the line. I had a customer once using Polane on some exterior signs, and after a year they had hundreds of signs across the country start to peel. When we went back and looked at their application, we found out that their spray guy was grossly under catalyzing the product and not following the specs. They went out of business because they couldn't afford to redo all of those signs. They were based in Mexico, and all those people who bought their signs were screwed. Some of them tried to come after us, but quickly found out that they couldn't based solely on the fact that the specs were not followed and we had proof of it.

Now MOST architectural acrylic paints are at the extreme low end of the spectrum as far as the need to adhere to the specs, but if there ever is a need to go after the manufacturer for a failure you sure as hell better have PROOF that you followed those specs. That is the first thing they will throw out in court.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Woodco said:


> Neat. Im not in a million years turning a five hour job into a two day job cuz the can says I should. In my 20+ years of painting this way, theres never been a single issue.


I'm in your camp here. Until I have a real tangible reason to wait, I'm recoating as soon as it's dry. 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

When you've painted rooms 2 or 300 times you can generally tell when the paint is ready for a second coat or if it's still a little too risky. Taking into account product, temperature and humidity levels. Not getting stupid about it means not having to come back another day and fixing what you screwed up the day before by recoating too soon.


Experience is a serious helper.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> If there is ANY failure of ANY coating, and the end user goes back to the vendor, the FIRST THING THAT VENDOR WILL DO IS DETERMINE IF THE SPEC'S WERE FOLLOWED CORRECTLY! Some products are much more dependent on following those specs than others are. For example conversion varnish. If you vary from the specs as far as catalysation (? Spell check choked on this one!) you will have a real mess on your hands somewhere down the line. I had a customer once using Polane on some exterior signs, and after a year they had hundreds of signs across the country start to peel. When we went back and looked at their application, we found out that their spray guy was grossly under catalyzing the product and not following the specs. They went out of business because they couldn't afford to redo all of those signs. They were based in Mexico, and all those people who bought their signs were screwed. Some of them tried to come after us, but quickly found out that they couldn't based solely on the fact that the specs were not followed and we had proof of it.
> 
> Now MOST architectural acrylic paints are at the extreme low end of the spectrum as far as the need to adhere to the specs, but if there ever is a need to go after the manufacturer for a failure you sure as hell better have PROOF that you followed those specs. That is the first thing they will throw out in court.


I get that. Like I said, however, out of the millions and millions of walls double coated before spec time, how many failures are there? Sorry. I'll take my chances. How many hours would be wasted by following those specs? How many upset customers would there be if we had to turn their bedroom wall paint into a two day process? How many jobs would we lose by taking the extra time into account when bidding a job?

Worse case scenario: Lets say I eventually have some form of failure on the walls in a bedroom due to recoating too soon. At the absolute worse, I'd have reskim or texture the walls, and "gasp" BUY two more gallons of paint. Over a 40 year career, I'd say its WELL worth the hundreds of hours saved by recoating as soon as you can, as well as the added customer satisfaction by giving them their rooms back sooner.

Yeah, doing trim, or conversion varnishes etc, is a totally different story.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Woodco said:


> I get that. Like I said, however, out of the millions and millions of walls double coated before spec time, how many failures are there? Sorry. I'll take my chances. How many hours would be wasted by following those specs? How many upset customers would there be if we had to turn their bedroom wall paint into a two day process? How many jobs would we lose by taking the extra time into account when bidding a job?
> 
> Worse case scenario: Lets say I eventually have some form of failure on the walls in a bedroom due to recoating too soon. At the absolute worse, I'd have reskim or texture the walls, and "gasp" BUY two more gallons of paint. Over a 40 year career, I'd say its WELL worth the hundreds of hours saved by recoating as soon as you can, as well as the added customer satisfaction by giving them their rooms back sooner.
> 
> Yeah, doing trim, or conversion varnishes etc, is a totally different story.


On the flip side I had one customer I told about the recoat time issue and that I don't like pushing them and she actually was really happy I did that, and I did a better job for less money than other people she hired for more money. I am certainly not "big time" as far as money or workload, though.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Thanks for your last two posts, Mr. Redux. Excellent examples of how oft times experience trumps manufacture data sheets. And how experience allows you to know when adhering to these specs is critical and should be followed.



I don't agree. You can't just dismiss product research and development, along with QA/QC just because some painters out there think they're smarter than actual chemists. And even if a lot of painters have the aptitude to recognize discrepancies with the technical data, it still doesn't qualify them to dismiss product recommendations, in general, or more importantly, encourage others to do the same. Period.


It's great that Alchemy had the interest and time to help arbitrate the discrepancy he, or she found in a particular product TDS. And if that leads to positive changes, the better we're all for it. And sure, there are plenty of occasions where it is impractical to wait for perfect conditions, and product application is pushed. But to encourage everyone who paints for a living to practice that behavior as a normal best practice, does nothing to develop integrity in the industry.


And that is exactly what happens when there is no over site. People fly by the seat of their pants and introduce hillbilly science in place of actual science. Hit and Miss becomes the measure of success. Why is that?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> I don't agree. You can't just dismiss product research and development, along with QA/QC just because some painters out there think they're smarter than actual chemists. And even if a lot of painters have the aptitude to recognize discrepancies with the technical data, it still doesn't qualify them to dismiss product recommendations, in general, or more importantly, encourage others to do the same. Period.
> 
> 
> It's great that Alchemy had the interest and time to help arbitrate the discrepancy he, or she found in a particular product TDS. And if that leads to positive changes, the better we're all for it. And sure, there are plenty of occasions where it is impractical to wait for perfect conditions, and product application is pushed. But to encourage everyone who paints for a living to practice that behavior as a normal best practice, does nothing to develop integrity in the industry.
> ...


Best practice for me has always been what allows me to deliver a quality job while maximizing profits. Your entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. That's the great thing about living in America! Good luck.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Best practice for me has always been what allows me to deliver a quality job while maximizing profits. Your entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. That's the great thing about living in America! Good luck.



My opinion has nothing to do with it. I'm stating a fact. There are recommended best practices in the painting field. As there are best practices in business, or any other venture. Typically, these best practices are agreed upon by members of the industry. This includes everyone from the top down. 


And even though I frequently circumvent opportunities to execute best practices, at least I can respect and refer to them whenever possible. And I will never encourage others to circumvent best practices even though I am guilty of it. Period. And I really could care less what anyone else does. I just become extremely suspect when a self serving 'method" is being pawned off as a normal practice


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I really don't think anyone's encouraging others to breach best practices, rather they're just stating what sometimes happens in the field. Sometimes stuff has to get done and when you're 99% sure nothing's going to go wrong, your level of experience facilitates that.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I really don't think anyone's encouraging others to breach best practices, rather they're just stating what sometimes happens in the field. Sometimes stuff has to get done and when you're 99% sure nothing's going to go wrong, your level of experience facilitates that.


 
According to Woodco and LB, they've established an entire career circumventing what I would consider best practices (following product TDS for example). And it's not about how successful they've both become with their methods (congratulations!), but rather how dismissive they are about anyone who encourages the execution of established best practices.


And making up your own best practices is exactly that. Made up best practices. Which tends to be a little too rogue for me. And although I can, and have painted with rogue practices, I certainly don't brag about it, or encourage others by the nature of my own personal outcome, to follow suit.


Bottom line, I'm not sold on their customized SOP, despite how successful it's made them.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I think you're reading and interpreting a heck of a lot into what Woodie and Lightning boy (myself, Angie M, etc.) are saying. They're using judgement and experience to make decisions based on historical success that are critical to running successful businesses. That's a standard operating procedure you have to follow or you're gonna drive yourself into the ground.


I don't think anyone's trying to sell anyone else on best practices or modified ones or whatever. We're just having a comfortable conversation about working around the dry time of paint.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Well said, Wildbill!!!


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> Bottom line, I'm not sold on their customized SOP, despite how successful it's made them.


One purpose of Paint Talk is to provide a forum where less experienced painters can seek the advice of veteran painters. What I offer is an opinion, what has worked for me(and others) over the years. I'm not forcing it on anybody, they can take it or leave it. I don't risk a nickel either way.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Doing only interiors, I believe they are typically much more forgiving in undercutting dry time specs than exteriors. With that said, I much prefer having several rooms to do rather than just one so I CAN observe the recommendations. 

Just did a job last week, small bath that is used almost exclusively by guests. In that case, I second coated the same day since not doing so would have jacked up the price an unnecessary amount (IMO). Best practices? Probably not, but experience let me feel comfortable about it and I slept well that night.

Now, a bathroom that’s heavily used by several teens? That would have been another story. Again, an example of letting the conditions, specifics, and my experience level dictate my choice of how to “best” proceed, which is what I feel is being advocated in most of these posts.


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## Vinyl 54X (Mar 12, 2019)

Last September to fill out a short day the boss asked me to run across town to paint 1 side of a small trash enclosure that got shot up by paint balls. I had hoped to throw a runner down, roll it out and vamoose it was 1pm and like 95 degrees, Anyways the concrete must have been hotter. The paint was drying out with each roll. Could not stop roller marks no matter what. It was a mess I was a mess . I had to stop and come back the next morning when it was cooler. Maybe there is something to dry time.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I think you're reading and interpreting a heck of a lot into what Woodie and Lightning boy (myself, Angie M, etc.) are saying. They're using judgement and experience to make decisions based on historical success that are critical to running successful businesses. That's a standard operating procedure you have to follow or you're gonna drive yourself into the ground.
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone's trying to sell anyone else on best practices or modified ones or whatever. We're just having a comfortable conversation about working around the dry time of paint.



I'm not the one agitated, or defending anything. I'm simply recognizing best practices.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I also tend to think recommended dry times are largely meant to protect the a55s of the paint manufacturers rather than truly hard and fast rules to be scrupulously followed - at least up to a point.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> One purpose of Paint Talk is to provide a forum where less experienced painters can seek the advice of veteran painters. What I offer is an opinion, what has worked for me(and others) over the years. I'm not forcing it on anybody, they can take it or leave it. I don't risk a nickel either way.



As a thoughtful and considerate member of Paint Talk, I would highly suggest the less experienced painters that happen onto this forum, please consider reading and following recommendations provided in the product Technical Data sheets before experimenting.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Vinyl 54X said:


> Last September to fill out a short day the boss asked me to run across town to paint 1 side of a small trash enclosure that got shot up by paint balls. I had hoped to throw a runner down, roll it out and vamoose it was 1pm and like 95 degrees, Anyways the concrete must have been hotter. The paint was drying out with each roll. Could not stop roller marks no matter what. It was a mess I was a mess . I had to stop and come back the next morning when it was cooler. Maybe there is something to dry time.


Seems more like a painting conditions thing than a dry time issue.

I can remember helping my dad paint the outside of our house back in the sixties with an exterior latex paint - I believe it was one of the first to come out. I swear the directions said to spray down the siding with water while painting if the temperature got above a certain amount.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> Seems more like a painting conditions thing than a dry time issue.
> 
> I can remember helping my dad paint the outside of our house back in the sixties with an exterior latex paint - I believe it was one of the first to come out. I swear the directions said to spray down the siding with water while painting if the temperature got above a certain amount.



Yep, if you're rolling out one coat that's got nothing to do with dry time.


I had a guy who worked at the BM store out in Vancouver tell me to hose down a rough stucco house a half hour before putting on the first coat. He said the remaining (minimal) water would help the paint wick into the little nooks and crannies and crevices. He also said definitely don't do it on the second coat. Seemed like an interesting idea, but I don't remember following his instructions as I was a novice and very new to painting. What a horrible, awful job that was now that I think of it. Complete mess. I think I still have one of the dropsheets from that one. Makes me jump every time I see it.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Gawd I love threads like this!

1. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.
2. Everybody has the right to use what product and technique works for them.
3. Some people will read the mfg's info, some wont.
4. PaintTalk is a forum for members to share their experience, techniques, etc.. Whether you agree with them or not, it seems to be working for them. 
5. Suggesting to others how something may be done works much better than dictating to them.
6. It always pays to be considerate than it does not to be.
7. Be kind. We're either all or have been in the same trade. Life is too short for petty differences.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Only once can I recall where disregarding the recoat times bit my in the butt. It was with a comped gallon of BM Advance when it first came on the market. I didn't bother to read the Pds and see the 16hr recoat time. I recoated in 4hrs or less and it ran and sagged like crazy.

I recoat when dry. Waiting 4 hours for before recoating all the time just isn't practical is real life situations. Depending on the job it might be recoated in 24hrs or 1hr, I've never noticed a difference on the final product except with Advance. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## brentondan47 (Jun 22, 2019)

I would have told her to pound sand and to read the paint can you can't do more than what it says on the can if it says 2-hour dry time it says 2-hour dry time


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Im sort of on the fence about all these opinions. More times than not, there is always something else I can be doing while waiting for paint to dry. I usually plan this into my week. Who is doing 1 room at a time?
Unless that is the only job you got,..
I too have recoated way before the recommended dry time, including Advance and the world didn't end..
But..honestly who actually go's back to jobs sites to check if that paint didn't do something funny, like stay a little soft or something..
I just try to plan my day/week better so I'm not always rolling the dice..To each his own, but It's not good practice to go against tds stats. Just sayin.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread the past two days while painting newly installed double hung windows. Exterior color tan, interior color white, two coats per side. Of course, they have to be taken out, remove hardware, finished and installed by the end of the day. So far I've done twelve sets with another painter. Do the math.....


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Gwarel said:


> I was thinking about this thread the past two days while painting newly installed double hung windows. Exterior color tan, interior color white, two coats per side. Of course, they have to be taken out, remove hardware, finished and installed by the end of the day. So far I've done twelve sets with another painter. Do the math.....


Now trim paint you may want to be a bit more careful about pushing the envelope on between coat dry time.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I guess we shouldn't get into caulking dry times. Whoa baby! lol! 

Truth be told, I no longer paint for a living. I recently got into another field that has it's own challenges and best practices. There are sites dedicated to all kinds of trades and I would hope as a lesser experienced person that I'd receive advice based on a sound foundation. But I figure everything has the opportunity for experimentation and customization. 

I probably should spend more time at those other sites but I've been painting way too long to just abandon a good group of painters like we have here. So if you see me opining about this, that, or the other, just ignore me like you would any other wondering ranter. I know my painting peak is about twenty years in the past and I welcome all of the younger trades people who contribute to this site.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> I guess we shouldn't get into caulking dry times. Whoa baby! lol!


We may have struck common ground here! I have seen problems arise from caulk being painted over too soon, and I generally stick to specs.. I'm not saying if there is a small gap that needs to be caulked I've never caulked it and painted right over it, but... if there is a lot of caulking, it's gonna be good and dry before the paint goes on.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

CApainter said:


> I don't agree. You can't just dismiss product research and development, along with QA/QC just because some painters out there think they're smarter than actual chemists. And even if a lot of painters have the aptitude to recognize discrepancies with the technical data, it still doesn't qualify them to dismiss product recommendations, in general, or more importantly, encourage others to do the same. Period.
> 
> 
> It's great that Alchemy had the interest and time to help arbitrate the discrepancy he, or she found in a particular product TDS. And if that leads to positive changes, the better we're all for it. And sure, there are plenty of occasions where it is impractical to wait for perfect conditions, and product application is pushed. But to encourage everyone who paints for a living to practice that behavior as a normal best practice, does nothing to develop integrity in the industry.
> ...


Not knocking chemists in the paint and coatings industry, but most are lacking in substrate knowledge, particularly with wood substrates, having little to no knowledge or formal educational backgrounds relating to wood and its chemistry and/or dynamics, substrate knowledge or lack there of not only limited to wood.

Look at all the lawsuits over the years involving finishes such as PPG’s Revitalize, PPG’s Pilt (Preservative In Line Treatment...I’m sure many here have encountered the rotted Marvin windows treated with PILT), Olympic’s Rescue It...even though application instructions were followed exactly there are substantial reports of bubbling, peeling, cracking, and flaking within a year of being applied, Behr's Super Liquid Raw-Hide promoting mildew growth...these are just to name a few, and are perfect examples of how some lead coatings chemists with PHD’s/polymer science backgrounds are accidents waiting to happen. I encounter this all too often, deferring to the USDA’s Forestry Products Research Laboratory and other knowledge bases in many instances, not relying solely on TDS’s.

Below are a couple of examples of educational and experience requirements for a coatings R&D chemist which are “elementary” at best:

Sherwood Williams R&D Chemist JOB QUALIFICATIONS:

Minimum requirements include a Bachelor’s Degree in Chemistry/Engineering or Bachelor’s Degree in Science with 2 semesters of General Chemistry and 2 semesters of Organic Chemistry, as well as experience in a laboratory environment, experience in scale-up procedures for manufacturability, industry knowledge and awareness.

SR Development Chemist for PPG Industries:
Minimum qualifications include a Bachelor’s Degree in Science or Chemistry or Biochemistry discipline, along with a demonstrated track record of relevant work experience. 

So I’m guessing that possessing 3 overly priced wall hangers with a formal education in chemistry, combined with 47 years in the lab, the job-site being my laboratory wouldn’t qualify me to deviate or to know more than a chemist about a particular product, particularly as they apply to wood substrates? Product chemistry is often simple...the substrate chemistry not being all that simple with many more variables which are often overlooked by chemists.

Many modifications made by myself have resulted in revamped procedures and technical data sheets by several leading manufacturers of fine finishing products.

I’ve often Identified deficiencies and flaws in technical data, and adjusted where necessary based on “science” (not hillbilly science) if in fact an improvement can be made, and communicating the modification and improvement to the manufacturer to benefit the industry as a whole. 

Modifications made by myself not in accordance with technical data sheets are never self-serving, never to cut corners, never as time savings measures, and never to increase profits, and are only done based on chemistry, coatings, and substrate knowledge only to improve product performance and customer satisfaction. 

I always read TDS’s for the simplest of products such as wood fillers, caulking, and even abrasives. I’ll never make modifications outside the realm of my general knowledge, and adhere to manufacturer’s instructions otherwise. 

My advice to anyone in the trade is to follow manufacturer’s instructions, and be willing to accept the consequences for failures resulting from deviations.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wow! I seem to have struck a nerve here! Imagine that!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Alchemy Redux said:


> ...
> So I’m guessing that possessing 3 overly priced wall hangers with a formal education in chemistry, combined with 47 years in the lab, the job-site being my laboratory wouldn’t qualify me to deviate or to know more than a chemist about a particular product, particularly as they apply to wood substrates? Product chemistry is often simple...the substrate chemistry not being all that simple with many more variables which are often overlooked by chemists.
> 
> Many modifications made by myself have resulted in revamped procedures and technical data sheets by several leading manufacturers of fine finishing products.
> ...



A few points:


1. You're obviously the exception to the rule given your level of qualifications. I suspected as much.


2. I suspect Woodco and LB don't have the same credentials. 


3. I use the term Hillbilly Science endearingly. No offense, but I don't accept anything as valid unless it's been through a qualified vetting process. 


4. I imagine that if a lowly painter like myself has had SSPC training, surely paint manufacturers have an understanding of substrates and surface preparation recommendations for their products


5. I couldn't agree with you more! Product TDS should be read before changing the wheels on a product.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> A few points:
> 
> 
> 1. You're obviously the exception to the rule given your level of qualifications. I suspected as much.
> ...


That's why it is called the hillbilly paint lab. It isn't by any means the be all and end all of scientific discovery, but a means of testing products and not relying solely on a manufacturers marketing to determine comparative paint quality. Sorry if that has been misinterpreted at some point. But, i do have much more knowledge of competitors' products due to this testing process than most "paint store" employees have. Take it for what it's worth. But i've been doing this kind of testing process for over 25 years or so. And as i have also said, the lab is by no means intended to replicate real world use. It is a means of comparing products under a somewhat controlled environment.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> A few points:
> 
> 
> 1. You're obviously the exception to the rule given your level of qualifications. I suspected as much.
> ...


How could you possibly determine qualifications by what you see on an internet forum??? That is truly amazing! smh


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> How could you possibly determine qualifications by what you see on an internet forum??? That is truly amazing! smh


 
Hence the use of the word "Suspect". It's not really that startling. And if you do have a degree in chemistry, my apologies. But I "suspect" most painters don't. Particularly, since proper film formation seems to be of little interest to most.


That's why given the degree of interest in those details, I tend to lean towards the manufacturers recommendations rather than a PT member's.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> Hence the use of the word "Suspect". It's not really that startling. And if you do have a degree in chemistry, my apologies. But I "suspect" most painters don't. Particularly, since proper film formation seems to be of little interest to most.
> 
> 
> That's why given the degree of interest in those details, I tend to lean towards the manufacturers recommendations rather than a PT member's.


No, but I do happen to have some chemistry background...Principles of Chem. I&II and Intro to Organic Chem. (and a degree in Biology), so I have a rudimentary understanding of chemistry. That has little to do with the point I make - Experience is a valuable tool and can be used to advantage IF YOU DARE..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> No, but I do happen to have some chemistry background...Principles of Chem. I&II and Intro to Organic Chem. (and a degree in Biology), so I have a rudimentary understanding of chemistry. That has little to do with the point I make - Experience is a valuable tool and can be used to advantage.


 
I received a basic understanding of coating chemistry through a trades apprenticeship and courses through SSPC. Unfortunately, I didn't pursue a NACE certification. And I agree, experience coupled with that basic understanding has helped me to recognize that being a painter isn't just about making a wall look pretty. 


I just suppose that all the trade tricks and extracurricular stuff I've learned through experience isn't as important as the coating fundamentals and trade best practices available to everyone interested. So I'm hesitant to purport to a forum of professionals, anything I deem revolutionary. Because at the end of the day, it's probably not.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> I received a basic understanding of coating chemistry through a trades apprenticeship and courses through SSPC. Unfortunately, I didn't pursue a NACE certification. And I agree, experience coupled with that basic understanding has helped me to recognize that being a painter isn't just about making a wall look pretty.
> 
> 
> I just suppose that all the trade tricks and extracurricular stuff I've learned through experience isn't as important as the coating fundamentals and trade best practices available to everyone interested. So I'm hesitant to purport to a forum of professionals, anything I deem revolutionary. Because at the end of the day, it's probably not.


I'd much rather see someone error on the side of caution than use practices that are truly rogue. For that it is hard to fault you, but it will never sway my opinion that some info. stated in the data sheets can be modified to one's advantage with no ill effects. And experience will bear them out. 

With that I will bow out of our debate. It has been a pleasure, and I hope you will fare well.


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## vwbowman (May 15, 2017)

Have you tried Beyond from Rust Oleum? I have been selling it for exterior doors for over a year now. Dries to the touch in 30 Minutes, recoat in 2 - 4 hours. Best part the door can be two coated and reinstalled with weatherstripping and no blocking!


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line. 

By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.
> 
> By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).
> 
> ...


You make a good point. But the overlap would be less significant in terms of solvent entrapment than an entire wall would be. Bottom line, recoating before the prescribed dry time is not a best practice. And although we all do it, I would not recommend it.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

804 Paint said:


> Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.
> 
> By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).
> 
> ...


Well, I've had this issue from working with other painters. I worked on my own a long time and just had no exposure to "normal" work practices. I had this exact logic, so my serious way of painting a room is to cut and roll a wall or two at a time. Then I can roll into still wet cuts, and then I also don't need to do any funny business like using a mini roller at the top ceiling line to blend the cuts in to roller texture and that sort of junk. Everything looks even as it's all drying at roughly the same time, minus the 5-10 minutes or whatever per wall for cut ins (in an average generic bedroom sort of room, sorry I'm not as cool as Jack Pauhl... :/ ) I also like it better as I can cut a little bit heavier and not be as worried about feathering/pulling it all down with the brush, and if I do happen to get runs, the roller will pull them down. 

But this is my weird way of painting, it's apparently oddball and bizarre. When I work with others, it's different and the results are on them, but on my own I do paint this way. Adapted to a crew I don't see why you can't do it this way, but nobody does for ????? reason, especially as with a crew you can just have a guy cutting and rolling right at the same time.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

celicaxx said:


> Well, I've had this issue from working with other painters. I worked on my own a long time and just had no exposure to "normal" work practices. I had this exact logic, so my serious way of painting a room is to cut and roll a wall or two at a time. Then I can roll into still wet cuts, and then I also don't need to do any funny business like using a mini roller at the top ceiling line to blend the cuts in to roller texture and that sort of junk. Everything looks even as it's all drying at roughly the same time, minus the 5-10 minutes or whatever per wall for cut ins (in an average generic bedroom sort of room, sorry I'm not as cool as Jack Pauhl... :/ ) I also like it better as I can cut a little bit heavier and not be as worried about feathering/pulling it all down with the brush, and if I do happen to get runs, the roller will pull them down.
> 
> But this is my weird way of painting, it's apparently oddball and bizarre. When I work with others, it's different and the results are on them, but on my own I do paint this way. Adapted to a crew I don't see why you can't do it this way, but nobody does for ????? reason, especially as with a crew you can just have a guy cutting and rolling right at the same time.


 
I'd say your cut in process demonstrates a very logical and sound approach to maintaining a best painting practice. Probably the main reasons why it is avoided by the majority of painters is that it requires extra work and slows down the momentum of performing one task. And we all know higher production is supported by single tasks that can build up momentum.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

804 Paint said:


> Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.
> 
> By that logic, it would take you two days to paint ANY wall using a paint with a 4-hour recoat time (most any SW wall paint).
> 
> ...


I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of a "re-coat". Rolling after cutting in does not qualify as a 're-coat'. I roll the wall about 20 minutes after it has been cut in. It might be dry to the touch but it is not 100% dry like after the recommended 4 hours between coats.

The manufacturer also goes to the extremes with their recommended re-coat times.

Rolling into a wet cut line can be a disaster with acrylics which can tack up in minutes. You always want to wait until the paint has set up and has a dry film on the surface before rolling, especially with paints like Aura. The only times I've ever had an issue was when rolling into a wet cut.


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Mr Smith said:


> 804 Paint said:
> 
> 
> > Curious if those of you who strictly follow recoat times wait the prescribed time between cuts? And then wait the prescribed time after cutting to roll? Because you are rolling into your cuts by necessity, you are technically “recoating” when that roller hits that dry cut line.
> ...


Exactly.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings. 


Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Mr Smith said:


> I'd have to disagree with your interpretation of a "re-coat". Rolling after cutting in does not qualify as a 're-coat'. I roll the wall about 20 minutes after it has been cut in. It might be dry to the touch but it is not 100% dry like after the recommended 4 hours between coats.
> 
> The manufacturer also goes to the extremes with their recommended recoat times.


I'm not following your thinking here. The debate in the whole of the thread is does recoating before the manufacturer's specified time generally have any effect on the integrity of the finish. Rolling over a coating that was applied 20 minutes prior (and has dried to touch) would constitute recoating before the manufacturer's recommended time. 

I would fully agree with your statement regarding manufactures going to extremes with recoat times.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings.
> 
> 
> Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.


Feel the paint.....be the paint!:biggrin:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

actually, all i wanted to know was why this one decorina was pissed at me for selling her paint with such a long dry time. But what the heck?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Feel the paint.....be the paint!:biggrin:


Freakin hippies. lol


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> I'd say your cut in process demonstrates a very logical and sound approach to maintaining a best painting practice. Probably the main reasons why it is avoided by the majority of painters is that it requires extra work and slows down the momentum of performing one task. And we all know higher production is supported by single tasks that can build up momentum.


I take a different attitude on going fast, then again I'm small potatoes. I really don't like being rushed, I don't think I'm necessarily ridiculously slow, I just find it's better to gain speed from efficiency, then better tools and materials. For me, I find my combo of a 1/2" microfiber 14" roller, Wooster cage, and a Wooster Silver Tip 2.5" oval sash to be able to take hours off jobs compared to normal stuff, like most Purdy stuff. I timed myself using a "Whizz" 3/8" nap roller vs an Arroworthy 9/16" microfiber at 30 minutes vs 10 minutes in one room. I think there's lots of ways to up efficiency without "cheating." I think especially in a residential setting (I know commercial and NC is a different ballgame where I have some, but a lot lower experience in...) most of your time is moving furniture, covering everything in plastic, cleaning years old soda off the baseboards, masking baseboards to the floor, patching stuff, priming stuff, sanding stuff, etc, etc, that takes exponentially more hours than you spend actually painting anyway, so to me even if my method takes more time, it's kind of moot, at least in my mind. 

In commercial I kind of "got it" with time, as time really is money for commercial business owners, and the traffic is probably going to mess up any paint anyway, even if it's gummy peely crap on day one, if it wasn't on day 30 it'd probably be scuffed up anyway. Obviously this applies to say... Wal-Mart, and not a doctor's office or law firm. 

Also interestingly, I guess some people here are right, though American paint companies don't really put it down in their TDS. If you go to the thread with Endras from Indonesia, I looked up a TDS of one of his paints and they actually spec'd different recoat times at different humidity and temperatures. That said, I still just felt *really* uncomfortable with "hey oh look it's dry, throw another coat on" after 20 minutes, and then some bizarre stuff like cut cut roll roll techniques. 

I guess it comes down to this. In painting there's all kinds of variables that can ruin your day, be it the surface, or just the temperature or humidity. Or the company can make a worse batch of paint or change something and not tell you. I figure why add another? 

That said, I've spent a few years in this field and in some ways I enjoy it, but in a lot of ways it feels very race to the bottom. :/


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

It used to be that trades craftsmanship lent itself to a slow and steady pace that supported exceptional outcomes, albeit not necessarily at a Squire's ransom. But somewhere along the line, humble earnings were not enough to keep up with society's insatiable appetite for shiny things, thus larger profit demands placed pressure on production and eventually rendered craftsmanship obsolete in favor of speed. 

So here we are today, molesting freshly painted walls in our haste to feel if they're dry enough to second coat before the sun goes down.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Working today on an wooden door. Lots of sanding and a coat of coverstain. Got a coat of Aura exterior satin on at about 2 o'clock, 4 hour recoat time recommended. It was humid today, but at around 4 we decided to try the finish coat. Quite a bit of drag, (rolling and tipping) so I'm probably going to have to recoat the door tomorrow. Win some, lose some........


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Freakin hippies. lol


They're everywhere these days.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It used to be that trades craftsmanship lent itself to a slow and steady pace that supported exceptional outcomes, albeit not necessarily at a Squire's ransom. But somewhere along the line, humble earnings were not enough to keep up with society's insatiable appetite for shiny things, thus larger profit demands placed pressure on production and eventually rendered craftsmanship obsolete in favor of speed.
> 
> So here we are today, molesting freshly painted walls in our haste to feel if they're dry enough to second coat before the sun goes down.


Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck.

If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success.

But running your own business as your complete livelihood means what you get done in a given day is pretty much the definition of being successful. That success translates to (gasp) making money. Being _very_ successful may eventually allow many guys and gals out there be able to buy the “shiny things”, but for many, if not most, success now means earning enough to pay for their housing, feeding their family, buying insurance, clothing their kids, making vehicle payments, all in addition to reinvesting in their business in order to grow. It is a tough tough business to be in, and my hat is off to any and all who chose to do it as their sole livelihood.

I think that as professionals, adopting practices that are deemed (from experience - not from feelings) to give good results without any resulting failures (ex. reasonably adjusting recoat times) is an acceptable practice. They aren’t doing so while fully expecting failure. It is a calculated move that allows them to complete their work in a timely manner which translates into a met timeline which in turn allows them to compete and - yes, make money. Somebody drastically eschewing standard practices, such as spraying an exterior while it’s raining, is inviting failure. Someone taking a calculated and cautious route to increase production, is not a hack painter - just someone trying to be successful in their chosen profession.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> The more I read through this thread, the more I don't think I give enough credit to feelings. It's like to be a real painter, you have to be more sensitive to the feel of things rather than the science. Maybe in the same way a master mechanic might dismiss the use of a torque wrench in favor of his feelings.
> 
> 
> Next paint job I do, I'm going to hug a gallon of paint and see if it performs better.


frickin' paint huggers!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck.
> 
> If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success.
> 
> ...


Most painters are just chasing that Promar dream! Gotta do thousands of them to make a living. Brilliant.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> Most painters are just chasing that Promar dream! Gotta do thousands of them to make a living. Brilliant.


LOL... Well, not exactly sure what Promar has to do with it, I’m sure your professional customers are out to make money too, at least you better hope they are. But I know you can never resist slipping in a SW slam so...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Something bothered me about this post and it finally hit me that there is a bit of a smugness and even distain directed aimed towards painters who own and operate their own businesses and may have to make choices that allow them to compete and be successful. There is also an undercurrent of distaste for anyone wanting to make money, as if we want to actually do well, we are greedy and worthy of disdain. I seriously doubt that any of us would do what we do strictly for the fun of it or to feel good. We all work to make a buck.* Reply: Painting has provided me with a very sustainable life style and I will always respect the trade for that. However, I do despise the fact that there are little to no standards followed, or over site which leaves much of the trade application open to interpretation by many painting contractors. I don't find that acceptable.*
> 
> If I remember correctly, you work (or worked) for a company largely doing maintenance painting work where I suspect you might have had the luxury of having a fairly comfortable timeline for completing a specific project. Likewise, as a retired teacher, with a fairly good pension, who is in painting as a second career I too have the luxury of not typically being overly consumed by scheduling concerns. I can take my time and if a job goes a bit overlong, I don’t suffer much for it. I won’t exactly call myself a hobby painter but as retirement looms, I find myself with an increasingly relaxed attitude towards profits. But I have worked hard to get there, and to me, that relaxed attitude is a measure of my success.* Reply: The fact is, I have always been pushed by the powers that be, to provide quantity at a rate that often circumvented best practices and compromised optimal quality. Rarely did I ever have the luxury to have the time to paint in the manner and pace I would have liked.* *I'm glad you do.*
> 
> ...


RH, I hope you don't take my replies as a personal attack on you. I respect you. I'm just providing an opinion. I'd hate to be banned again just because of my views. But if you and the rest of the staff are inclined to do so, then so be it.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> RH, I hope you don't take my replies as a personal attack on you. I respect you. I'm just providing an opinion. I'd hate to be banned again just because of my views. But if you and the rest of the staff are inclined to do so, then so be it.


Absolutely nothing ban worthy in what you said. I was just taking exception with the idea that the majority of painters are hacks cutting all four corners on a house. Most I know are hard working, conscientious pros just trying to make a decent living. 
I doubt it was your intent for it to come across that way, simply how it struck me.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I just think the topic of cutting in and waiting 3-4 hours to roll is absurd. Cutting in and rolling exactly the way I outlined is the standard practice for most good or high-end painters. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.


That's the last I'll ever say about this topic.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> LOL... Well, not exactly sure what Promar has to do with it, I’m sure your professional customers are out to make money too, at least you better hope they are. But I know you can never resist slipping in a SW slam so...


What i mean is, cheaper jobs mean more jobs to make a living. Like painting new construction and apartments. You gotta do a bunch of them to make any money. Promar is just the paint of choice for most of those jobs, at least on the spec's. It's an inside joke i guess.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The reality is that if you aren't lifting the cut in than it's ok to roll over it. The only thing you need to worry about is causing the previous coat to lift or sag. Once it's dry to that point it is fine to apply another coat. The issue is that not all paints get to that point the same. Some have to be completely dry or you may lift it. Others can be applied over a still partially wet coat. That's where the experience of being a professional painter comes in. Knowing how the paint you are using will act. A technical data sheet lists a dry time to recoat pretty much only for the worst case scenario and for DIY'ers who can't tell or won't know when a coat can be recoated. Or for professionals who have no experience working with that particular paint. For waterborne architectural paints anyway, there shouldn't be any inter-coat failure once the second coat is applied as long as it doesn't cause the previously mentioned sags and runs. Some paints in certain situations will appear and feel perfectly dry, but when you apply a second coat it will sag like crazy. I've seen promar 200 do that before. Painter could run his hand on the first coat, and an hour after he applied the second coat both coats were literally running down the wall. This was in a heavily air conditioned room. To cold, dried to touch, second coat, sag like grandmas tatas.


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

PACman said:


> Most painters are just chasing that Promar dream! Gotta do thousands of them to make a living. Brilliant.


I think in some ways, there's no magic paint, though. Though again, young in the field, I'm learning more and more that there's less perfect magic paints, and the final outcome depends more on prep and application materials and conditions. What will look better, a poorly prepped wall with Aura, or a fully skim coated then properly primed wall with... Cashmere Flat? (Aha, not Promar 200....) Of course the idea is that when using higher end paints you should also be doing high end prep as well. But I think far more often than especially a lot of BM sellers let on it's more just a matter of one product being branded for the wealthy and another product not. Of course there's real big standouts, to me the biggest standout was the now deceased Muralo company, but I just find more and more there's less "magic" paints, and each brand has pluses and minuses and just to use them where appropriate. If I have good conditions and the ceiling is flat and smooth, use BM 508 Ceiling Paint, it's brighter white. If it's a kinda junky looking ceiling, use SW Masterhide, it's flatter and grayer looking and hides more flaws. Neither choice is wrong, it's just different circumstances. 

I think the flip side to the ProMar 200 dream is the BM Regal dream, according to BM store owners (I think you've said it) all the expensive paint buyers have fancy trucks and big houses, and cheap paint buyers are homeless or whatever. It's not true or black and white. 

I think for getting said high end jobs is how you present yourself and your otherwise existing social circles, whilst paint choice is part of it, I think it's at best 20-30%. The rest is how you conduct yourself and present yourself, and a lot in that is preexisting social strata you're apart of and the economic situation otherwise in your community. Some as well is just even how old you look, if you have a family or are married as well, people will pay you more. Of course with more work and getting more skilled you can change those other variables, but I think it's fanciful to think buying Aura will make you a millionaire over night and make you go from apartment painter to 5 digit job millionaire houses overnight.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

As Nike says, just do it!


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Gwarel said:


> Working today on an wooden door. Lots of sanding and a coat of coverstain. Got a coat of Aura exterior satin on at about 2 o'clock, 4 hour recoat time recommended. It was humid today, but at around 4 we decided to try the finish coat. Quite a bit of drag, (rolling and tipping) so I'm probably going to have to recoat the door tomorrow. Win some, lose some........


Update: Went back to the job this morning and the door dried out great. No drag marks, the paint leveled out nicely so I was able to go on to start another job, an apartment style condo remodel. One coat of primer on walls and two coats on the ceilings (over new drywall). Ceiling paint recommended recoat time is 4 hours, but we put the second coat on after 2 hours. Of course, I'll let you know if I have any issues related to accelerated recoat times.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

PACman said:


> The reality is that if you aren't lifting the cut in than it's ok to roll over it. The only thing you need to worry about is causing the previous coat to lift or sag. Once it's dry to that point it is fine to apply another coat. The issue is that not all paints get to that point the same. Some have to be completely dry or you may lift it. Others can be applied over a still partially wet coat. That's where the experience of being a professional painter comes in. Knowing how the paint you are using will act.


Good thoughts here PAC.^^^

The comments I have made in the thread are in regard to latex flat or eggshell wall paint. I've seen a few comments on pushing the envelope with trim paints. Many paints with a sheen above eggshell will lift when recoated too soon. One reason good 2 coat coverage is not obtained with darker trim colors. The paint feels dry, you rewet the film when applying second coat, and end up removing a good part of the previously dried film with your brush. You don't even realize what's going on. When the second coat is dry you think..."Gee, that didn't cover too well"??? I don't know if it affects the integrity of the finished product, but recoating higher sheen paints too soon can certainly lead to less than ideal coverage.

And I'm sure most that have been around a few years have had the experience of rolling latex semi gloss in a bathroom, the paint felt dry to the touch, started rolling the second coat, and...a big sheet of the fist coat peels off on the third roller stroke and wraps around your roller. Yes, experience is a great teacher!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Good thoughts here PAC.^^^
> 
> The comments I have made in the thread are in regard to latex flat or eggshell wall paint. I've seen a few comments on pushing the envelope with trim paints. Many paints with a sheen above eggshell will lift when recoated too soon. One reason good 2 coat coverage is not obtained with darker trim colors. The paint feels dry, you rewet the film when applying second coat, and end up removing a good part of the previously dried film with your brush. You don't even realize what's going on. When the second coat is dry you think..."Gee, that didn't cover too well"??? I don't know if it affects the integrity of the finished product, but recoating higher sheen paints too soon can certainly lead to less than ideal coverage.
> 
> And I'm sure most that have been around a few years have had the experience of rolling latex semi gloss in a bathroom, the paint felt dry to the touch, started rolling the second coat, and...a big sheet of the fist coat peels off on the third roller stroke and wraps around your roller. Yes, experience is a great teacher!


paints with higher sheen levels tend to form a film on the outside of the coat a little quicker than flats. Especially if it is a little on the warm side or if there is a breeze. It's a little more important to make sure they are dry enough to recoat, that's for sure.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

That's an interesting feature of the EVO paints that other paints don't have. It will build on itself while it is wet or partially dry. I've been rolling some of it out and it works pretty darn well. You can take a soaked roller and go over a partially dry coat and it will kind of suck the paint off the roller. You can literally roll over the same area and almost get the roller dry if you want to. Eventually it will start to sag but you really gotta put a lot of paint on to do that. It's pretty interesting stuff. A lot different than any other paint i've ever tested. You can actually feel the roller being "pulled" a little bit as you are rolling with a fully wet roller. Almost feels like the pull you get from dry rolling other paints. Not as pronounced but you can feel it.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Talking about putting it on too thick, I remember when elastomeric paints first came on scene. I had a hard time convincing my employees (and myself) to apply it to the proper thickness. And customers woulds see how thick it was being applied and start asking questions. Gotta put it on there like your not payin' for it !


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

And speaking of elastomerics- anyone know if BM still makes their elastomeric knife grade patching compound.? That was great stuff for patching larger cracks and holes in masonry. It seems to me I heard they discontinued it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Talking about putting it on too thick, I remember when elastomeric paints first came on scene. I had a hard time convincing my employees (and myself) to apply it to the proper thickness. And customers woulds see how thick it was being applied and start asking questions. Gotta put it on there like your not payin' for it !


I had a customer paint the Holiday inn in San Diego with elastomeric. He was all happy about how much money he saved in paint because he only used 1/3 of what was figured up by our sales rep. Started peeling a couple years later and he had given them a 10 year warranty. He tried to take us to court but his attorney told him he didn't have a chance because he DIDN'T FOLLOW THE SPEC!


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