# SW- Harmony vs Cashmere opinions?



## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

I haven't used either. I have a friend (not a painter) 3000 miles away from me; He wants a recommendation for painting his new house (interior).

no VOC. (He has a son that was a preemie, 3-4 months in nicu) 

I said BM Natura, but now SW has a 30% off special, so he's checking that out. I would think ease of use and durability are the important things for a novice.

Any advice? - thanx, Rick


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Cashmere has very low odor but is not a zero VOC paint. If that's a requirement tell him to go with harmony.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Cashmere is more ease of use. When I last used Harmony that stuff smelled awful. It dries quick and was sticky. Which means it will be hard for a novice to play with. Still low/zero v.o.c. but still had a smell on first application. 

I'm pretty sure the 30% applies only to the "retail" paints they have. But I know ProMar 200 comes in zero v.o.c. It just depends what store your at that will let you get by with the 30% off or they might be able to throw him a discount on a gallon or two of promar200. Can't hurt to ask.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I love Cashmere, but for your friend with a new baby, I'd suggest Natura, or look into Mythic paints. Remind him that no VOC doesn't always mean low odor.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I love Cashmere, but for your friend with a new baby, I'd suggest Natura, or look into Mythic paints. Remind him that no VOC doesn't always mean low odor.


I'd recommend that he take a whiff of that PM 200 lo-voc before he buys it. PEE-UUUU!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I love Cashmere, but for your friend with a new baby, I'd suggest Natura, or look into Mythic paints. Remind him that no VOC doesn't always mean low odor.


Depending on were he is, Mythic is a good one or if he can get it California Envirotech, Muralo Breathsafe or Nanocoat would be good options too. I had some issues with Natura and odor when I USED TO WORK FOR A BENJAMIN MOORE DEALER. Caps are for the people who don't pay attention on this blog and not meant for you!:help:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Cashmere is great, but whatever vocs are in cashmere isn't going to hurt his baby. He needs to concern himself with what caused his baby to be preemie in the first place, which I'm sure had nothing to do with paint fumes.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Exactoman said:


> Cashmere is great, but whatever vocs are in cashmere isn't going to hurt his baby. He needs to concern himself with what caused his baby to be preemie in the first place, which I'm sure had nothing to do with paint fumes.


VOC's aren't all harmful to people, but they aren't all harmless either. There's many VOCs that are harmful to people's health even though that's not the criteria for defining them. VOC's are defined by their impact upon the ozone, but fair plenty of them also have significant health impacts for people as well. Going Zero VOC is much more likely to give you a healthful paint than ignoring it will.

I wouldn't recommend ProMar 200 Zero VOC as it just got _delisted from MPI listings for performance failings, almost certainly due to its smell._

Natura had some bad batches at some point, but quality control is top notch these days and I've never had a can that I could smell without my nose touching the paint in the can.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

It's curious to note here, that at one point the infamous California Air Resources Board was actually considering putting titanium dioxide on the Prop 65 list. (which is the also infamous list of chemicals known to the state of California to cause all kind of nasty things to babies.) The reason why they didn't has nothing to do with paint. It was because titanium dioxide was a major absorbent in disposable diapers!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> VOC's aren't all harmful to people, but they aren't all harmless either. There's many VOCs that are harmful to people's health even though that's not the criteria for defining them. VOC's are defined by their impact upon the ozone, but fair plenty of them also have significant health impacts for people as well. Going Zero VOC is much more likely to give you a healthful paint than ignoring it will.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend ProMar 200 Zero VOC as it just got _delisted from MPI listings for performance failings, almost certainly due to its smell._
> 
> Natura had some bad batches at some point, but quality control is top notch these days and I've never had a can that I could smell without my nose touching the paint in the can.


I heard it was due to a chemical venders screw up, and not BM.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

That was before my time with 'em, so I'm not sure. All I can work off of is my own experience, and I've had a lot of people fall in love with it. Everyone has their personal tastes- which is fine- but if what your friend cares about is health, there's no better paint for it that I know of. From what I'm told, Natura doesn't off-gas anything (other than water vapor), which is unique to the industry as far as I know- though I'd love to be proved wrong. Healthier paints are good for everyone.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> That was before my time with 'em, so I'm not sure. All I can work off of is my own experience, and I've had a lot of people fall in love with it. Everyone has their personal tastes- which is fine- but if what your friend cares about is health, there's no better paint for it that I know of. From what I'm told, Natura doesn't off-gas anything (other than water vapor), which is unique to the industry as far as I know- though I'd love to be proved wrong. Healthier paints are good for everyone.


check out http://www.ecospaints.net/. you'd think it was a miracle any of us were still breathing. And they have bird and lizard safe paints. The good part is that there is nothing on their MSDS or tech sheets that explains how their paint is any different than BM Natura, Harmony, Envirotech, Muralo breathsafe, Etc.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanx guys! good feedback. i used Natura last year, painting several rooms for a pregnant friend. I was amazed! not only the lack of paint smell, but how well it performed. So far no good recommendations for Harmony...


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Not helpful in terms of info on Harmony, but Natura is beautiful stuff.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Woodford said:


> VOC's aren't all harmful to people, but they aren't all harmless either. There's many VOCs that are harmful to people's health even though that's not the criteria for defining them. VOC's are defined by their impact upon the ozone, but fair plenty of them also have significant health impacts for people as well. Going Zero VOC is much more likely to give you a healthful paint than ignoring it will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



BUT, all I was saying was the VOCs aren't going to make his kid MORE preemie, right? I'm pretty sure whatever amount of vocs that are in cashmere vs the ones that aren't in Natura, is so negligible, that his kids health would scarcely miss a beat (no pun intended). I honestly believe those who are worried about what is and isn't in paint need to get a life! I mean, the majority of guys on here are 40+, grew up with lead paint! and were all still breathing right? There's much more health variables to pay attention to.....just sayin.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

i know what yer sayin Exactoman; I'm 60+... oil base, lead, asbestos, and benzene... and I'm still here. But if we can do better, why not?

and tho his son seems to be doing really well, once you been thru that, you're gonna worry... or at least be cautious. why not?


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## HD painting (May 27, 2013)

I've used harmony eggshell at my mother in laws. She has lung issues so it was requested.
To me it smells like NOTHING!
She was happy so....

I used harmony sg in my sons nursery.
Wish I would have used eggshell. Semi is shiney but film doesn't seem as hard as the semi in the rest of my house. Pm200....

I wish we could see a quantifiable number for the absorption of formaldehyde that they claim harmony does.

My friend told me horrible story about cheap laminate flooring from china


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Exactoman said:


> BUT, all I was saying was the VOCs aren't going to make his kid MORE preemie, right? I'm pretty sure whatever amount of vocs that are in cashmere vs the ones that aren't in Natura, is so negligible, that his kids health would scarcely miss a beat (no pun intended). I honestly believe those who are worried about what is and isn't in paint need to get a life! I mean, the majority of guys on here are 40+, grew up with lead paint! and were all still breathing right? There's much more health variables to pay attention to.....just sayin.


While it won't make his kid more preemie, preemies are typically much more frail as infants. VOC's (and other toxic paint ingredients) can have a significant, measurable impact on respiratory health. If you have a chance to make a better life for your kid, even if it's just a chance, would you not take it?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

HD painting said:


> I've used harmony eggshell at my mother in laws. She has lung issues so it was requested.
> To me it smells like NOTHING!
> She was happy so....
> 
> ...


I have serious reservations about this one. I can tell you that in other parts of the world, titanium dioxide pigment is marketed as a formaldehyde absorbent in paint. I would think the amount would be negligible and short term though, just like the Refresh brand from Dutch Boy. That one only works for a couple of months until the "baking soda" is saturated. Then it becomes just another mediocre paint film.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> While it won't make his kid more preemie, preemies are typically much more frail as infants. VOC's (and other toxic paint ingredients) can have a significant, measurable impact on respiratory health. If you have a chance to make a better life for your kid, even if it's just a chance, would you not take it?


While I am not a doctor, (but I am apparently the king of all Behr stinks threads.lol) I had two grand nieces that were preemies. One of the things they told my nephew and his wife was that one of the big issues with preemies is that their lungs develop even slower than the rest of their bodies, so having as clean of air as possible is extremely important for the first few months until the lungs catch up with the rest of their organs.

That explains why they kept me away for the first couple of months!:nuke:


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Probably best not to be painting the house then, cuz you never know right? Again, we are coming back to what Doctors are saying, the government SAYS, vs the reality of the situation. Propaganda will always win people if you don't battle it with common sense and educate your homeowners and apparently remember that yourselves have made it through the tough battle of all the harmful chemicals in paint.
Can we use "better" products, sure, but what I was saying, when it comes to the voc differential between cashmere and natura, one vs the other isn't going to make a difference when it comes to that baby. If we are talking about that microscopic of a difference, well then maybe we should just all put our kids in f-ing bubbles for crying out loud.
Paint fumes did not cause this kid to be a preemie. There are larger issues looming when a child is born prematurely....diet is namely the biggest factor. I'm just sick of whining parents. And they wonder why their kids grow up with all kinds of "allergies," and don't play outside anymore.
Educate. Educate. Educate. 
Come on people.


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## PaintHunter (Dec 21, 2014)

I like Harmony. Seem to get nearly 400 sq a gallon out of it. Easy to work with.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> Probably best not to be painting the house then, cuz you never know right? Again, we are coming back to what Doctors are saying, the government SAYS, vs the reality of the situation. Propaganda will always win people if you don't battle it with common sense and educate your homeowners and apparently remember that yourselves have made it through the tough battle of all the harmful chemicals in paint.
> Can we use "better" products, sure, but what I was saying, when it comes to the voc differential between cashmere and natura, one vs the other isn't going to make a difference when it comes to that baby. If we are talking about that microscopic of a difference, well then maybe we should just all put our kids in f-ing bubbles for crying out loud.
> Paint fumes did not cause this kid to be a preemie. There are larger issues looming when a child is born prematurely....diet is namely the biggest factor. I'm just sick of whining parents. And they wonder why their kids grow up with all kinds of "allergies," and don't play outside anymore.
> Educate. Educate. Educate.
> Come on people.


Hey I was just passing on what the doctor told my nephew.lol. I didn't say I believed it. And no preemie should be exposed to my gases! There are plenty of nasties in a gallon of paint that have no odor and are voc compliant, so for the most part I believe a lot of complaints etc. about paint are all in their heads. Not to mention the quantities that would have to be absorbed to cause a problem are way above what any typical exposure would cause.

Hell my dad would clean oil based barn paint off of us with leaded gasoline when I was a kid. I think the Amish still do. And I turned out ok. except for the gassy thing.

Do you know that the amount of formaldehyde a person would have to absorb to have any negative effect comes out to several gallons being drunk per year? Why the hell are they making a big deal out of formaldehyde trapped in wood flooring? I don't think several gallons a year is going to come from anyones' flooring. And I am sure someone is going to refute what I am saying, but all they will be able to present are government statements and reports. And no actual proof that anyone has been sickened or has died from it.

That's why the Chinese foreman at that flooring factory in china was laughing his ass off. They probably sell 50 times as much of that flooring in china with no one getting "sick" from it. 

And don't get me started on the flu vaccine.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Exactoman said:


> Probably best not to be painting the house then, cuz you never know right? Again, we are coming back to what Doctors are saying, the government SAYS, vs the reality of the situation. Propaganda will always win people if you don't battle it with common sense and educate your homeowners and apparently remember that yourselves have made it through the tough battle of all the harmful chemicals in paint.
> Can we use "better" products, sure, but what I was saying, when it comes to the voc differential between cashmere and natura, one vs the other isn't going to make a difference when it comes to that baby. If we are talking about that microscopic of a difference, well then maybe we should just all put our kids in f-ing bubbles for crying out loud.
> Paint fumes did not cause this kid to be a preemie. There are larger issues looming when a child is born prematurely....diet is namely the biggest factor. I'm just sick of whining parents. And they wonder why their kids grow up with all kinds of "allergies," and don't play outside anymore.
> Educate. Educate. Educate.
> Come on people.


You claim "educate" but your post is so full of red herring you could serve it at a Red Lobster.

No one is claiming the damn paint caused the baby to be preemie. Please stop saying that. 

You have two options:

1) Paint the house with a paint you know is safer, doesn't off-gas, and has zero out of a certain number of potentially harmful off-gassing products in it, or
2) Paint the house with a paint you don't know is safe, does off-gas, and has some potentially harmful off gassing products in it.

If you want to be screw around on your own, that's your deal. But please refrain from giving terrible advice to people who are concerned about the health of their infants. As has been stated before, preemies have specific problems with respiratory health and off-gassing paints (or any chemical irritants, they don't even have to be toxic) can exacerbate that.

Just because you survived using whatever paints you've used doesn't mean that it was good for you. The effects are magnified against premies who often don't have fully functional respiratory systems yet. They have trouble getting oxygen as is, and introducing more harmful chemicals while their body isn't yet fully formed is clearly a bad choice.

These are lives and futures at stake. If you want to spout bad advice in some of the other threads, that's your deal, but giving willfully bad advice to concerned parents is beyond reprehensible, and making light of it with terrible hyperbole ("oh well then just don't paint the house!") is even worse.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

And I'm the first person to call "BS" on the whole VOC laws and that entire suite of marketing from the paint companies. A vast majority of it is completely abused loads of crap. But just because a lot of it is bad marketing shams doesn't mean that there aren't serious, real health risks. When parents concerned with the welfare of their at-risk infants ask for advice on paint, you can either give them a product that is definably better, or one that's definably worse and you're pushing the worse option and mocking people for suggesting the better.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Since you don't appear educated about premature babies and what exactly the deal is, let me lay it out for you. Among other complications, their lungs frequently don't produce a substance that allows them to absorb oxygen correctly. This means that any further irritants they're exposed to can make the problem worse or even stop them from breathing entirely.


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## D&K Custom (Oct 10, 2014)

I use the Harmony almost exclusively. The eggshell has a nicer sheen than the 200 in my opinion. Selling the zero voc "odor" factor sometimes gets me the job. Applying the cashmere is like driving a racecar compared to other paints. I still prefer the Harmony.


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