# Painting with Deep tones on furniture.



## finishesbykevyn

I have these 2 pieces to do. Going a dark charcoal colour. Not in the budget to completely strip. Normally I would prime with BIN, but don't want a white undercoat on these.
Considering just shooting 2 coats DTM Oil through Hvlp..thoughts? And no I can't get Milesi or GF around here. BM, SW and Dulux. Plus a few specialty stores..


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I have these 2 pieces to do. Going a dark charcoal colour. Not in the budget to completely strip. Normally I would prime with BIN, but don't want a white undercoat on these.
> Considering just shooting 2 coats DTM Oil through Hvlp..thoughts? And no I can't get Milesi or GF around here. BM, SW and Dulux. Plus a few specialty stores..


"B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon.Tinting the primer toward the color of the topcoat helps hide in one coat." (Rustoleum)


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> "B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon.Tinting the primer toward the color of the topcoat helps hide in one coat." (Rustoleum)


 Thanks Holland. However, I've had trouble with tinting Shellac in the past. Not sure if it was a bad batch or what. Also, You can also only really get it to a light grey at best.


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## Redux

The are no solvent based MPI approved deep base bonding primers that I’m aware of.


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## cocomonkeynuts

fresh start 024 deep base and impervo


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## finishesbykevyn

cocomonkeynuts said:


> fresh start 024 deep base and impervo


Is Impervo oil?


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## cocomonkeynuts

finishesbykevyn said:


> Is Impervo oil?


Yes. will be praying some this weekend with the apollo and 1.8 tip with corotech reducer kendall charcoal. I tinted the 217 primer just a light gray with 1.5floz black universal colorant. Normally we thin maybe 30% with xylene and shoot with 1.3 tip but I want to try a larger tip and see if we can get away with less reducer


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## Redux

cocomonkeynuts said:


> fresh start 024 deep base and impervo


Fresh Start 085 “supposedly” bonds better than 024 and is an MPI approved bonding primer whereas the 024 isn’t, although I’ve never had adhesion issues with the 024 over existing solvent borne clear finishes.

Edit: forgot to mention that the 085 is only available in white w/no deep tinting base.


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## thepm4

Not really knowledge input (i don't know what MPI stands for lol), but would a rust primer in a rattle can work after appropriate prep?


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## Redux

thepm4 said:


> Not really knowledge input (i don't know what MPI stands for lol), but would a rust primer in a rattle can work after appropriate prep?


MPI is the Master Painters Institute and is regarded by many architectural coatings specifiers as the gold standard for testing and approving architectural coatings submitted by manufacturers for different applications. Benjamin Moore includes MPI approval #s on their data sheets in the certifications & qualifications section.


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## finishesbykevyn

Technogod said:


> This station is where you are stuck using solvent base paints.Sorry to say this but there is no better and easy way to spraying a lacquer undercoater or vinyl sealer with your hvlp to this project.
> those furniture's are probably lacquer and all you have to do is de grease and scuff lightly with maroon scotch brite.
> spraying first coat as a guide coat and work on imperfections and ones your done patch and repair just spray a good coat of vinyl sealer.


 Your probably right technogod, but I'm really just not into spraying lacquer. I ended up priming them with a deep base fresh start 023. I actually found a can of stock black Command at the shop and think I am going to shoot that. Thanks for the recommendations.


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## cocomonkeynuts

finishesbykevyn said:


> Your probably right technogod, but I'm really just not into spraying lacquer. I ended up priming them with a deep base fresh start 023. I actually found a can of stock black Command at the shop and think I am going to shoot that. Thanks for the recommendations.


Aqualock comes in a stock black FYI


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## finishesbykevyn

thepm4 said:


> Not really knowledge input (i don't know what MPI stands for lol), but would a rust primer in a rattle can work after appropriate prep?


 I'm sure it would, but I have an hvlp setup so no way in hell I'm spraying all that with a rattle can.


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## finishesbykevyn

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Aqualock comes in a stock black FYI


Really? Aqualock primer? Interesting! I had no idea.


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## PPD

Scuff sand top coating at minimum (especially on the tops).

Could u use gardz? Its clear & a gripping primer…


_Keep Art Alive_


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## finishesbykevyn

PPD said:


> Scuff sand top coating at minimum (especially on the tops).
> 
> Could u use gardz? Its clear & a gripping primer…
> 
> 
> _Keep Art Alive_


Yes, thoroughly sanded everything with 180 grit paper. Primed with fresh start latex 023. Stuck pretty damn good, but with all the colorant and humidity I found it still not sanding properly 24 hrs later. Put a fan on it for a few more hours and hit it with a first coat of Command from the hvlp 1.4 tip. Sprayed pretty good unthinned. Will give more results after 2nd coat today.. Not sure what the actually bonding qualities are in the Gardz Primer. Never actually tested that. May try it out on some samples out of curiosity.


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## celicaxx

thepm4 said:


> Not really knowledge input (i don't know what MPI stands for lol), but would a rust primer in a rattle can work after appropriate prep?


In my experience Rustoleum 2 in 1 on wooden furniture actually works great and sands like a dream, though I'm only shooting other rattlecans on my own projects for now. I'm 99% certain any other latex paint would stick fine, considering latex sticks fine to other oil primers. I think in retrospect I've used rattlecan oil primer for car interior pieces topcoated with latex sample paint (Valspar) and it actually came out great, as doing a color matched sample paint even while not exact for car interior trim pieces is still more exact than using the stock few rattlecan colors and adhesion was great, too. Not as good as another rattlecan lacquer/oil based paint, but still not peeling off in any manner even in hot sun.

I think rattlecans for sure are your friends, though it does _look_ to the customer very DIYer-esque, they can get great results and I wish I used them sooner. Same even for things like heaters, a lot of times there imo a rattlecan is probably the most appropriate and least time consuming paint option in a residential setting. Not always, but I think it's important to get comfortable with them.

Obviously for MPI/etc, in a commercial setting you need to follow standards, but residential furniture there's not really architectural specs.


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## cocomonkeynuts

celicaxx said:


> In my experience Rustoleum 2 in 1 on wooden furniture actually works great and sands like a dream, though I'm only shooting other rattlecans on my own projects for now. I'm 99% certain any other latex paint would stick fine, considering latex sticks fine to other oil primers. I think in retrospect I've used rattlecan oil primer for car interior pieces topcoated with latex sample paint (Valspar) and it actually came out great, as doing a color matched sample paint even while not exact for car interior trim pieces is still more exact than using the stock few rattlecan colors and adhesion was great, too. Not as good as another rattlecan lacquer/oil based paint, but still not peeling off in any manner even in hot sun.
> 
> I think rattlecans for sure are your friends, though it does _look_ to the customer very DIYer-esque, they can get great results and I wish I used them sooner. Same even for things like heaters, a lot of times there imo a rattlecan is probably the most appropriate and least time consuming paint option in a residential setting. Not always, but I think it's important to get comfortable with them.
> 
> Obviously for MPI/etc, in a commercial setting you need to follow standards, but residential furniture there's not really architectural specs.


I like rattle cans for a large variety of premixed inexpensive metallic colors. Everything else your better off using HVLP.


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## thepm4

celicaxx said:


> In my experience Rustoleum 2 in 1 on wooden furniture actually works great and sands like a dream, though I'm only shooting other rattlecans on my own projects for now. I'm 99% certain any other latex paint would stick fine, considering latex sticks fine to other oil primers. I think in retrospect I've used rattlecan oil primer for car interior pieces topcoated with latex sample paint (Valspar) and it actually came out great, as doing a color matched sample paint even while not exact for car interior trim pieces is still more exact than using the stock few rattlecan colors and adhesion was great, too. Not as good as another rattlecan lacquer/oil based paint, but still not peeling off in any manner even in hot sun.
> 
> I think rattlecans for sure are your friends, though it does _look_ to the customer very DIYer-esque, they can get great results and I wish I used them sooner. Same even for things like heaters, a lot of times there imo a rattlecan is probably the most appropriate and least time consuming paint option in a residential setting. Not always, but I think it's important to get comfortable with them.
> 
> Obviously for MPI/etc, in a commercial setting you need to follow standards, but residential furniture there's not really architectural specs.


Coming from high decorative paint finishing background/career and mostly interior oriented basecoating (which i applied and isn't super MPI oriented..) i thought it would work. If it sands well, it will perform.

I believe the OP's method is solid and correct in regards to long term wear....personally I wouldn't want to see a white undercoat/prime coatwas part of the future life of the finish.


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## Woodco

I know this is a week old, but what about clear shellac?


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## Holland

Woodco said:


> I know this is a week old, but what about clear shellac?


That sounds like a good suggestion! 
de-waxed shellac


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## Elena Fishchenko

Amber shellac has a warm, orange cast that gives woodwork a rich, antique character. Clear shellac dries translucent with a faint, golden cast that is significantly lighter than oil-based varnishes.


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## Woodco

Elena Fishchenko said:


> Amber shellac has a warm, orange cast that gives woodwork a rich, antique character. Clear shellac dries translucent with a faint, golden cast that is significantly lighter than oil-based varnishes.


We're talking about using as a primer, not a topcoat.


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## finishesbykevyn

Woodco said:


> I know this is a week old, but what about clear shellac?


I had also thought about that. Although the shellac may be hard to bond too?


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> I had also thought about that. Although the shellac may be hard to bond too?


BIN is shellac base primer.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> BIN is shellac base primer.


Not talking about "BIN", rather just clear shellac. I have no doubt that it adheres well, but more of a finish then a primer?


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

finishesbykevyn said:


> Not talking about "BIN", rather just clear shellac. I have no doubt that it adheres well, but more of a finish then a primer?


Reduced dewaxed shellac will act as washcoat and somewhat seal the surface, depending upon how much it is reduced. Washcoats are especially useful before trying to stain blotch-prone woods. Zinsser SealCoat would be considered a sealer. I generally think of pigmented "sealers" as primers, although I doubt that's where the experts would draw the line. 
In regards to your question on a different post, _*"I had also thought about that. Although the shellac may be hard to bond too?"*_
Not sure if I'm understanding the question, but almost anything sticks to shellac, (although many will caution against applying a poly over waxed shellac).


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## finishesbykevyn

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Reduced dewaxed shellac will act as washcoat and somewhat seal the surface, depending upon how much it is reduced. Washcoats are especially useful before trying to stain blotch-prone woods. Zinsser SealCoat would be considered a sealer. I generally think of pigmented "sealers" as primers, although I doubt that's where the experts would draw the line.
> In regards to your question on a different post, _*"I had also thought about that. Although the shellac may be hard to bond too?"*_
> Not sure if I'm understanding the question, but almost anything sticks to shellac, (although many will caution against applying a poly over waxed shellac).


Not really ever using just clear Shellac, I was under the impression that it was a hard slick finish, therefore being harder to bond too. I was never sure on this though..It was more of a question whether it could be used as a primer over a previously finished product.


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## Woodco

Ive asked about clear versions of bin or or using clear shellac as primer, and never got an answer.


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## Woodco

I worked for an old man who used sanding sealers instead of primers on wood. He didnt know what the hell he was doing though.


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## Holland

I was under the impression that everything sticks to (de-waxed) shellac, and that shellac is a universal sealer (sticks to everything). 

Anyone know for sure?


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## Holland

Technogod said:


> if it is a lacquer substrate finish that you are working on,if you did not dewax, gave a good lacquer thinner treatment and a sanding first,de waxed shellac has a very little sticking effect on to lacquer.
> It is sometimes easy and safe to use on raw wood to seal before staining as a wash coat but not for refinishing situations.
> Lacquer to lacquer is very safe and easy finishing schedule.rest of them is a bomb on a timer.you never know when it will fail.All you need a cool flow mask and a well ventilated area to spray.


perhaps you can enlighten us on the difference between BIN and de-waxed Shellac?


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## finishesbykevyn

Technogod said:


> What i know BIN is a spot primer.De-waxed shellac is a sanding sealer.Two different animal.
> This is not a debate starting or anything but all different products has different use.You do not have a bare wood to seal .You have a wood that is already finished with lacquer.
> If you insist not to use any type of lacquer product and you want to play safe you will have to strip that wood or you will have to soak in some lacquer thinner and break the lacquer substrate so that you can sand after and let the BIN stick easy.
> Trust me on this BIN or de-waxed shellac has nothing to do at your project.If you are not comfortable spraying lacquer vinyl sealer or sanding sealer please find somebody who sprays for you.After you can spray color with any type of material.water or solvent.


I prime over lacquer with BIN all the time. They say spot prime on exteriors only. Interior is fine. It has better adhesion than any primer I've ever used. It's the clear dewaxed shellac I'm wondering about..


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## Holland

Technogod said:


> What i know BIN is a spot primer.De-waxed shellac is a sanding sealer.Two different animal.
> This is not a debate starting or anything but all different products has different use.You do not have a bare wood to seal .You have a wood that is already finished with lacquer.
> If you insist not to use any type of lacquer product and you want to play safe you will have to strip that wood or you will have to soak in some lacquer thinner and break the lacquer substrate so that you can sand after and let the BIN stick easy.
> Trust me on this BIN or de-waxed shellac has nothing to do at your project.If you are not comfortable spraying lacquer vinyl sealer or sanding sealer please find somebody who sprays for you.After you can spray color with any type of material.water or solvent.


You didn’t answer the question.


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## Holland

Technogod said:


> Yes i did.One is spot primer and other is sanding sealer and none of them work properly on your project.
> If you want to learn more please download msds.Since i do not use BIN as a wood primer and i cannot say what is it made or what is the difference.
> On the other hand De-waxed shellac is nothing more than a #2 cut 17 percent solid clear shellac.Not suppose to be use for refinishing.Just as a wash coat to control the stain strength on the bare wood surface.


I’m not interested in lacquer, my interest was/is learning about BIN and Dewaxed Shellac. Which is why I asked about it. Still don’t really feel like I know the technical difference between the two. 

BIN is Shellac-based, so how different can they be?


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## cocomonkeynuts

Holland said:


> I’m not interested in lacquer, my interest was/is learning about BIN and Dewaxed Shellac. Which is why I asked about it. Still don’t really feel like I know the technical difference between the two.
> 
> BIN is Shellac-based, so how different can they be?


BIN is pigmented shellac which its self has well documented adhesive qualities dating back thousands of years. Of course the industry has moved onto synthetic resins that are easier and cheaper to produce among other qualities.


http://14.139.215.35/~lpd/library/bulletin/Bulletin%20No.%20-210.PDF



In reference to using shellac as a prestain conditioner however I have found it inferior to other solutions such as Benite, or glue size and a few other off the shelf waterborne options.


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Technogod said:


> Yes i did.One is spot primer and other is sanding sealer and none of them work properly on your project.
> If you want to learn more please download msds.Since i do not use BIN as a wood primer and i cannot say what is it made or what is the difference.
> On the other hand De-waxed shellac is nothing more than a #2 cut 17 percent solid clear shellac.Not suppose to be use for refinishing.Just as a wash coat to control the stain strength on the bare wood surface.


I'm not so sure you're able to provide a comprehensive assessment of BIN since you don't use it. I can think of probably 30 finishers around the world who would disagree with your claims. As far as your comment regarding de-waxed shellac, not only can it be used as a washcoat, it can also do well as a barrier coat when trying to refinish over problematic or unknown finishes, so it IS actually useful for refinishes as well as new wood.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. The way you do things clearly works for you. The pictures you show on projects seem to produce wonderful results. But I do take exception to people who claim their way is the only way, (especially when it isn't).

From Zinsser Sealcoat, 
"Zinsser ® Bulls-Eye® SealCoat Universal Sanding Sealer is a 100% de-waxed shellac-based sanding sealer designed for *use as an undercoat to prepare new or previously finished interior wood surfaces* or as a pre-stain sealer and wood conditioner. "


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## Redux

Technogod said:


> What i know BIN is a spot primer.De-waxed shellac is a sanding sealer.Two different animal.
> This is not a debate starting or anything but all different products has different use.You do not have a bare wood to seal .You have a wood that is already finished with lacquer.
> If you insist not to use any type of lacquer product and you want to play safe you will have to strip that wood or you will have to soak in some lacquer thinner and break the lacquer substrate so that you can sand after and let the BIN stick easy.
> Trust me on this BIN or de-waxed shellac has nothing to do at your project.If you are not comfortable spraying lacquer vinyl sealer or sanding sealer please find somebody who sprays for you.After you can spray color with any type of material.water or solvent.


I’ve seen numerous catastrophic failures due to adhesion loss when lacquer sanding sealers/primers were top coated with finishes ranging from PUs, Acrylics, Alkyds, & hybrid emulsions…IMO, not really a great choice as a universal primer/sealer..although many of the tech sheets do state “top coat compatible with most solvent and waterborne finishes”, which isn’t always the case..


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## mike mineral spirits

Redux said:


> The are no solvent based MPI approved deep base bonding primers that I’m aware of.


It always amazes me how and why a Paint Contractor and paint salesmen suggest tinting the primer. I worked in a friendly environment in the 1990's where paint chemist and paint people could have open and honest discussions. There are 2 reasons I hate tinting the primer. 1. The finish coat is designed to go on at the recommended dry film thickness. I think 2.4 mils is the thinnest recommended dry film, this would require a wet film of at least 5 mils. 5 mils wet covers just about everything well with one coat. I'm well aware of Optimus and doest not meet that standard but that is another story at a different time. Cheating on the top coat does not protect anyone from a paint failure. 2. Most colorants were ethylene glycol based, in other words, anti freeze. Colorant breaks down the paint coating or reduces the integrity. I've had close to a hundred complaints of where My Paint is no good. The Navajo white on the stucco was amazing after 5 years, yet the Spanish Tile trim color washed out about a year ago. Paint any interior door with a dark color and conventional coating, go back in 3 weeks, give it the finger nail test? Very soft. Do the same test with the Extra White. a hard and solid finish.

A couple of years ago, I worked @ a paint company where 2 contractors dominated and commanded the entire residential repaint market. The homeowners would come into my store and review the 3 bids they obtained. one for $4500 another for $5000 and a third for $2800? This neighborhood, the smallest house was 2500 square feet. The losing contractors would tell me, don't bother giving them a lead if they lived in a particular neighborhood. Way too cheap. How many of you could paint a 3000 sq foot house using 7 gallons of primer and 8 gallons of finish coat on a stucco? Excluding the trim of course. My rule of thumb was a 3k house would take 30 gallons give or take 5 gallons, primer with 2 coats. You do the math, it is almost impossible to compete against a contractor who tints the primer to the finish coat. 

Depending on the manufacturers colorant used, 2 ounces of black added to a gallon of BIN would yield a dark gray primer. Using a gray primer can fully developed the natural beauty of the finish coat. See the display at your local paint store. Have a good weekend.


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## mike mineral spirits

mike mineral spirits said:


> It always amazes me how and why a Paint Contractor and paint salesmen suggest tinting the primer. I worked in a friendly environment in the 1990's where paint chemist and paint people could have open and honest discussions. There are 2 reasons I hate tinting the primer. 1. The finish coat is designed to go on at the recommended dry film thickness. I think 2.4 mils is the thinnest recommended dry film, this would require a wet film of at least 5 mils. 5 mils wet covers just about everything well with one coat. I'm well aware of Optimus and doest not meet that standard but that is another story at a different time. Cheating on the top coat does not protect anyone from a paint failure. 2. Most colorants were ethylene glycol based, in other words, anti freeze. Colorant breaks down the paint coating or reduces the integrity. I've had close to a hundred complaints of where My Paint is no good. The Navajo white on the stucco was amazing after 5 years, yet the Spanish Tile trim color washed out about a year ago. Paint any interior door with a dark color and conventional coating, go back in 3 weeks, give it the finger nail test? Very soft. Do the same test with the Extra White. a hard and solid finish.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I worked @ a paint company where 2 contractors dominated and commanded the entire residential repaint market. The homeowners would come into my store and review the 3 bids they obtained. one for $4500 another for $5000 and a third for $2800? This neighborhood, the smallest house was 2500 square feet. The losing contractors would tell me, don't bother giving them a lead if they lived in a particular neighborhood. Way too cheap. How many of you could paint a 3000 sq foot house using 7 gallons of primer and 8 gallons of finish coat on a stucco? Excluding the trim of course. My rule of thumb was a 3k house would take 30 gallons give or take 5 gallons, primer with 2 coats. You do the math, it is almost impossible to compete against a contractor who tints the primer to the finish coat.
> 
> Depending on the manufacturers colorant used, 2 ounces of black added to a gallon of BIN would yield a dark gray primer. Using a gray primer can fully developed the natural beauty of the finish coat. See the display at your local paint store. Have a good weekend.


Stucco or wood finishes. the same principal applies. I worked at a store that supplied a $10k a month kitchen refinisher, he never tinted his BIN Shellac, FWIW.


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## finishesbykevyn

Found these to clear things up.. Looks like sealcoat is indeed recomended as a bond/tie coat. 


https://inspectapedia.com/odor_diagnosis/Bin-Primer-Data-Sheet-UK.pdf





https://www.rustoleum.com/-/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Zinsser/BEY-07_Bulls-Eye_SealCoat_Universal_Sanding_Sealer_TDS.ashx


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## mike mineral spirits

finishesbykevyn said:


> Found these to clear things up.. Looks like sealcoat is indeed recomended as a bond/tie coat.
> 
> 
> https://inspectapedia.com/odor_diagnosis/Bin-Primer-Data-Sheet-UK.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.com/-/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Zinsser/BEY-07_Bulls-Eye_SealCoat_Universal_Sanding_Sealer_TDS.ashx


Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant BIN Shellac untinted. I have not sold BIN waterborne in almost 20 years, I now sell Gripper.

If I were repainting the furniture with DTM Alkyd as a finish, I would recommend an alkyd primer or sanding sealer as the base coat as they can be easily sanded as opposed to the latex.


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Found these to clear things up.. Looks like sealcoat is indeed recomended as a bond/tie coat.
> 
> 
> https://inspectapedia.com/odor_diagnosis/Bin-Primer-Data-Sheet-UK.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rustoleum.com/-/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Zinsser/BEY-07_Bulls-Eye_SealCoat_Universal_Sanding_Sealer_TDS.ashx



TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.

It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.

"B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."

"SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland said:


> TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.
> 
> It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.
> 
> "B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."
> 
> "SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."


Hmm Interesting. Yes, I just noticed that. Although I can't see why a coloured enamel or urethane would act any different..? It may just be a marketing thing?


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> Hmm Interesting. Yes, I just noticed that. Although I can't see why a coloured enamel or urethane would act any different..? It may just be a marketing thing?


That's what I was wondering... How different are they? Obviously one is pigmented, and the other is clear. 

BIN vs Wax-free Shellac (aka Sanding Sealer, SealCoat)

According to TDS, *Sanding Sealer would bond well*.

So the question might be:
If prepped/sanded according to TDS, *will paint adhere to Sanding Sealer?*


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## mike mineral spirits

Holland said:


> TDS for Sealcoat said it is "compatible with all clear finishes", and can act as a bond coat, but it doesn't say anything about going over it with paints or enamels.
> 
> It also states specifically not to "over apply"(but if so...), and that it should be sanded or abraded with an abrasion pad before top coating.
> 
> "B-I-N can be tinted with up to 16ml of universal tinter per litre. Tinting the primer toward the colour of the topcoat helps it hide in one coat. To achieve improved topcoat hide of mid/deep-tone colours, use Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Deep Tint Primer Sealer."
> 
> "SealCoat may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon. SealCoat may also be tinted with alcohol-based stains or aniline dyes. Note that alcohol stains will dilute the viscosity. If using powdered dyes, shake to completely disperse the dye and let the container sit to remove bubbles."


I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?


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## Holland

mike mineral spirits said:


> I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?


Will paint adhere to Sanding Sealer (aka de-waxed shellac)?


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## cocomonkeynuts

mike mineral spirits said:


> I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. * Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?*


Fine paints of europe have some incredible oil coatings including a flat, nothing else really like them in the states. I had a painter show me today some liquid metal product he has been spraying $1000/gallon but holy **** I've never seen anything like it. You can turn an MDF panel into a real iron/stainless/brass/copper/patina etc and its real metal.


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## cocomonkeynuts

Holland said:


> Will paint adhere to Sanding Sealer (aka de-waxed shellac)?


Yes shellac is really excellent as a tie-coat between finishes. Also paint and stains adhere very well to benite and shipnshore too. We even use shipnshore as a metal primer sometimes.


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## celicaxx

mike mineral spirits said:


> I totally appreciate your technical assistance from the manufacturer{s}, sorry to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum and sell paint for a living. Paint chemist are rewarded for the most part by developing a paint at a reduced cost to ensure the profit for the company is the desired end result. I for one, have inspected too many complaints for paint failure to believe everything I read and I do know too many paints are developed without one word of response from the end user [the paint contractor]. In 1991, Fran, a Blue Star paint chemist explained to me, that he could design a paint that could cover in one coat, flow and extend all brush and roller strokes, the alleged perfect paint. One problem, the method of application does not always produce the same results. A floor coating should be @ 22 to 28% solids by volume, everyone claims the coverage is terrible, but by increasing the solids, the resin is minimized and performance is miserable at best. Every paint has a benefit and conversely, every paint has a disadvantage. Performance versus profitability. Number of coats versus final rheology or the appearance to the end user. As stated last week, to my knowledge, a paint contractor is seldom contacted to seek his input. Again, If anyone has ever witnessed what an interior alkyd flat looks like and performs against any latex, has not seen a professional paint job. Pick your poison when it comes latex coatings involving wood products. I heard in 1972 Alkyds would not be produced by the paint industry by 1979? What happened to that story?


There's still quite a lot bad about oil, despite it adhering to anything and covering every sort of problem. I used it a lot for my first few years, and now I don't unless it's really needed.

I think a sort of fundamental issue with latex paints is the paint companies aren't really reasonable in managing expectations of the end user. I think ultimately people's expectations in paint come from what oil used to be able to do, that latex just can't really as easily do (things like stains, adhesion, etc.) The problem is, paint companies instead of managing the expectations of latex end users, put marketing in like "paint and primer in one" and "stain blocking power" and that sort of thing. I think latex paints work perfectly adequately in their own lane, so to speak, but it gets hard explaining to non-painters that their trim needs to be sanded, primed, primer sanded, and finally top coated with two coats when oil could have pretty much have been dumped on in one coat with barely/no sanding and looked adequate. 

So with latex, it leads to a lot of just vandalized/ruined sort of stuff, of gummy rentals with 50 layers of droopy peeling runny latex paint on their doors and trim nobody the wiser, just assuming that's how paint is.


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## Holland

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yes shellac is really excellent as a tie-coat between finishes. Also paint and stains adhere very well to benite and shipnshore too. We even use shipnshore as a metal primer sometimes.


Thank you!


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## Holland

Technogod said:


> Test don't guess


?


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## finishesbykevyn

Technogod said:


> Test don't guess


Ok Eric Reason. Give it up.


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## mike mineral spirits

celicaxx said:


> There's still quite a lot bad about oil, despite it adhering to anything and covering every sort of problem. I used it a lot for my first few years, and now I don't unless it's really needed.
> 
> I think a sort of fundamental issue with latex paints is the paint companies aren't really reasonable in managing expectations of the end user. I think ultimately people's expectations in paint come from what oil used to be able to do, that latex just can't really as easily do (things like stains, adhesion, etc.) The problem is, paint companies instead of managing the expectations of latex end users, put marketing in like "paint and primer in one" and "stain blocking power" and that sort of thing. I think latex paints work perfectly adequately in their own lane, so to speak, but it gets hard explaining to non-painters that their trim needs to be sanded, primed, primer sanded, and finally top coated with two coats when oil could have pretty much have been dumped on in one coat with barely/no sanding and looked adequate.
> 
> So with latex, it leads to a lot of just vandalized/ruined sort of stuff, of gummy rentals with 50 layers of droopy peeling runny latex paint on their doors and trim nobody the wiser, just assuming that's how paint is.


Very well said. Think about this concept? We have a gallon of paint, we add half a gallon of primer? What happens. The paint appears blotchy after curing and the surface is very tacky to touch. Paint has the function of protection and appearance, primer is designed to block stains, act as a tie coat between coats, reinforce minimized or questionable surfaces. But wait, DIY and Homeowners need a label where they can get away with one coat and claim the surface was primed and finished. They just eliminated an entire step in the painting process and claim it is valuable because they said so. Sell a lot more paint to lazy individuals and slick contractors who can minimize the labor and material cost of painting. Who wins??? No one. 

I did the experiment back in the 1990's, one coat of a premium paint versus 2 coats of the cheapest paint, Just guess who won. Moisture, sunlight and dirt accumulation always overcome the quality of the coating. I have inspected complaints on residences for over 30 years, High moisture designed with trees adding to the dirt accumulation leads to a miserable appearance with the paint job. Stretch the top coat to a covert rate of over 800 square feet per gallon with a .310 tip and the end user has a 2 year life span on his paint job. $5000 versus 2800? Whats the difference.

In the 1970's and early 80's I quit my paint career to work for a company called General Motors. I'm sure few of you remember the paint jobs on a chevy where the quarter panels were peeling after 2 or 3 years. My Step Dad drove a Mercedes and Volkswagons. They received 30 or 40 coats of paint. Whose paint endured the test of time? Look at a late model vehicle nowadays. Some manufacturers look brand new after 5 or 6 years, the other need a complete repaint. Mil build is absolutely necessary or essential to a long paint life. At least the major consideration. Because a manufacturer puts claims and implied warranties on their products doesn't make it so. 25 and 50 year warranties have been printed on tubes of caulk for over 40 years. I have yet to see a claim paid on caulk failure?? Let me know if you have?


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## CApainter

With the exception of house exteriors, organic solvent based coatings and sealants always gave me more confidence than waterborne products. For example, Hoffman's paint had an Alkyd Flat that would cover stains, smoke damage, nicotine, etc. in one shot. Dunne Edwards, as well as other manufacturers, had excellent oil based interior trim enamels that made application easy and ensured solid finishes. Before 100% solid coatings became popular in the industrial painting industry, High solid organic solvent based epoxies and polyurethane conversion coatings couldn't be beat for performance and aesthetics.

However, (and besides the UV sensitive drawbacks of many of these products) organic solvents are dangerous to property, personal health, and the environment. For this reason, I welcome waterborne products despite their inferiority to organic solvent based products.

Consumers are going to have to get used to painters not providing the quality they once did. And if they want a painter to make a latex product look like an oil, or actually demand a painter use organic solvent based products, they need to be prepared to pay a premium for that.

Note: The building product known as paint, has a significantly limited life cycle compared to other building products like, wood, metal, masonry, glass, asphalt, and thermoset plastics. Consumers don't understand this.


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## celicaxx

mike mineral spirits said:


> Very well said. Think about this concept? We have a gallon of paint, we add half a gallon of primer? What happens. The paint appears blotchy after curing and the surface is very tacky to touch. Paint has the function of protection and appearance, primer is designed to block stains, act as a tie coat between coats, reinforce minimized or questionable surfaces. But wait, DIY and Homeowners need a label where they can get away with one coat and claim the surface was primed and finished. They just eliminated an entire step in the painting process and claim it is valuable because they said so. Sell a lot more paint to lazy individuals and slick contractors who can minimize the labor and material cost of painting. Who wins??? No one.
> 
> I did the experiment back in the 1990's, one coat of a premium paint versus 2 coats of the cheapest paint, Just guess who won. Moisture, sunlight and dirt accumulation always overcome the quality of the coating. I have inspected complaints on residences for over 30 years, High moisture designed with trees adding to the dirt accumulation leads to a miserable appearance with the paint job. Stretch the top coat to a covert rate of over 800 square feet per gallon with a .310 tip and the end user has a 2 year life span on his paint job. $5000 versus 2800? Whats the difference.
> 
> In the 1970's and early 80's I quit my paint career to work for a company called General Motors. I'm sure few of you remember the paint jobs on a chevy where the quarter panels were peeling after 2 or 3 years. My Step Dad drove a Mercedes and Volkswagons. They received 30 or 40 coats of paint. Whose paint endured the test of time? Look at a late model vehicle nowadays. Some manufacturers look brand new after 5 or 6 years, the other need a complete repaint. Mil build is absolutely necessary or essential to a long paint life. At least the major consideration. Because a manufacturer puts claims and implied warranties on their products doesn't make it so. 25 and 50 year warranties have been printed on tubes of caulk for over 40 years. I have yet to see a claim paid on caulk failure?? Let me know if you have?


I've heard it was about 9-10 layers on those European cars back in the day.






What was the original W123 Paint type? Was it clearcoat? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum


I am curious as to what the original W123 Paint technology type for the 80-85 Models? Was it clearcoat? Sometimes, I dont think so, I think it was



www.peachparts.com












When Paint Jobs Lasted Forever: The Lost Art Of Single Stage


A look at the history of chemical structures used in automobile paints and how they have changed professional results overtime.




benklesc.medium.com





I've also heard people loved the old Volvo 240 factory paint jobs because the original lacquer is so thick usually you can cut and buff it out to look brand new, which you can't really do on a modern base/clear type car.

New cars look pretty sweet because the clears are so glossy without requiring any maintenance, but your only choice is redo whole panels when the clear inevitably chips/etc. Another thing I noticed about new cars vs the oldschool lacquer jobs is the orange peel can be atrocious on even factory vehicles.




















Oh well.


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## Redux

mike mineral spirits said:


> In the 1970's and early 80's I quit my paint career to work for a company called General Motors. I'm sure few of you remember the paint jobs on a chevy where the quarter panels were peeling after 2 or 3 years.


I wonder if GM used the same DuPont Cronar we were shooting cabinetry with back in the 80s…I recall the Cronar failures put a lot of small auto body shops under.


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## Packard

I've used SealCoat for years as a primer over raw wood. It does not raise the grain like water-based primers, so over sanded surfaces, it saves a step. However, when I used it over MDF center panels on some shaker doors I built, the poplar rails and stiles painted well with Advance, but the MDF panels were crazed. I had to sand the Advance and apply 1-2-3 over the Sealcoat to eliminate the crazing. 

I have no idea why this happens, but it is easy to deal with. I don't use shellac-based primers under Advance.


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## Flipperock

Coat the furniture with one or two layers of primer, this will achieve better adhesion of the paint to the surface and reduce paint consumption during further painting. It is best to use an aerosol acrylic primer.


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## Packard

When I got my Toyota early in about 2000, it was the first year that they sold cars with waterborne paint. Mine was a nearly black, grey color. When new, I could easily scratch the paint with my thumbnail and running it through the car wash was a no-no.. A year later, it was acceptably hard.

I don‘t know if this was clear coated or not.

Clearly, things have improved since then.

Correction: It was in 2004.


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