# About Primer



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

So, there has been alot of happy horsecrap shared lately about primers. One very vocal member and his secretary have very vocally posted that the traditional 3 coat systems of primer and two coats of finish yield "severe"failures....and that two coats of Behr paint are far superior. 

My own practices were specifically called into question by these dolts. And somehow, I was to take my own paint crew into the field today to spray drywall in a 4k sf full gut remodel, and I was scrutinized for not telling what primer I would use. 

I work in a small market, not many options, and my specs (which are contractually driven by me) are usually decided by what I can get when I need it. 

I have a good BM dealer and a good SW dealer, and of course a Home Depot and a Lowes. 

Today, what was most readily available amongst primers I would consider purchasing for use on a job, was SW.

It didn't take 24 shots to come up with something that worked. 

I will be happy to share step by step of this job if there is sufficient paint talk interest.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Myself I don't like that Behr crap, I prefer primer and 2 finish coats.We looked at another house flipper and he uses Behr, has their rep measure and get the materials, the rep asked me what I thought of Behr with a big smile on his face and I replied it is complete garbage in my opinion.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

It's probably not Primer #24, but it was available. Might even be zero voc.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> So, there has been alot of happy horsecrap shared lately about primers. One very vocal member and his secretary have very vocally posted that the traditional 3 coat systems of primer and two coats of finish yield "severe"failures....and that two coats of Behr paint are far superior.
> 
> My own practices were specifically called into question by these dolts. And somehow, I was to take my own paint crew into the field today to spray drywall in a 4k sf full gut remodel, and I was scrutinized for not telling what primer I would use.
> 
> ...


I'm watching and interested.

You have my attention.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

My names not Pauhl, and I don't know about y'all, but I prefer a .5 gpm minimum when spraying drywall. 

Today, it was the Graco 395 Ultra airless sprayer.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> It's probably not Primer #24, but it was available. Might even be zero voc.


Your kinda making me giddy. Thats all I choose to use on walls. Sonetimes I use it for primer too (gasp).


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, well, we got the pump all primed up, one of the keys to the big FAT FAKE struggle for equalizing porosity between mud and paper on drywall is nothing more than a basic understanding of spraying and backrolling. 

Here's the spray:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Chris is missing out on the beginning of a masterpiece...... this will be legendary.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok, so, many of you have met Todd. He's a no shart guy. Anyone who has met him will tell you as much. Here he is, spraying again...395 Ultra, 515 tip, ProMar 200 primer.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

When the "severe" failures that Troy (who is this nobody again, except Jack's fan boy?) referred to supposedly occur, it is probably due to operator error. When you spray, GD backroll. Period. Complexly Simple.'

So easy, yup, even a girl can do it, with a GD 18" roller.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Shall I continue? I can do this all GD night. No trick photos or vids, no time lapse happy horse crap, and I promise you, no wet photos.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> So, there has been alot of happy horsecrap shared lately about primers. One very vocal member and his secretary have very vocally posted that the traditional 3 coat systems of primer and two coats of finish yield "severe"failures....and that two coats of Behr paint are far superior.
> 
> My own practices were specifically called into question by these dolts. And somehow, I was to take my own paint crew into the field today to spray drywall in a 4k sf full gut remodel, and I was scrutinized for not telling what primer I would use.
> 
> ...


I've avoided posting in the "Behr" thread. Now I will voice my opinion. 
There is a lot about the Jack Pauhl posts that just don't pass the old "smell test". 
First and foremost is the issue of adhesion problems with latex paint to GWB.
In all my years in this business, I've never heard of that being a problem. Even in this forum there are threads about using tape vs. cutting in freehand and there is never a mention of tape pulling paint from the drywall.
I've used some Behr paint and like anyone else here, I can make it work. My issue like so many others is dealing with the big box store and their personnel.
Not gonna do it if I can avoid it. :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dry. Brian, the creator of the fictional Jack charactor suggested that I never back up what I say, and that there is no credibility in that. 

Lol. I took 288 pics and shot vids. Tomorrow we will spray ceilings with another not so Big Box product. 

Are we all good here? I got more...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schucks, that last one was kinda blurry. Darn it iphone pics. But I am not pulling my window masking until I shoot ceilings tomorrow, and have half the house in wall paint (anyone doubt that I will show that?)


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Shall I continue? I can do this all GD night. No trick photos or vids, no time lapse happy horse crap, and I promise you, no wet photos.


At first I thought "GD' was short for "good". 
I see it's for emphasis. :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> At first I thought "GD' was short for "good".
> I see it's for emphasis. :thumbsup:


Its a Steve Richards thang.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Well, I'll be jiggered, there's more...


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Pretty cool to see the complete job sequence, look forward to seeing the rest!:thumbup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

No Chit...and more


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

It was not quite a full day for the 395 Ultra. She cleaned up nice and will be right back in ceiling paint first thing in the morning. 

We are running Eminence, what used to be one of our favorites when it was labeled as Brilliance. 

Its a SW product. Sorry Brian and that other dude. 

Let me know if there is anything further I can do to document our project. Thank goodness we don't have to take 24 GD cracks at figuring out how to seal drywall. Who in the hell has time for that?

Meanwhile, please, stop wasting peoples time with nonsense.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Any questions?


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

vermontpainter said:


> Any questions?


Yeah why you guys spraying with dust mask


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MIZZOU said:


> Yeah why you guys spraying with dust mask


Lol...we are ok with zero voc and N95's.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Any questions?


So was that paint or primer? :whistling2::jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> So was that paint or primer? :whistling2::jester:


Totally Primer...not to be confused with paint and primer in 1.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> So was that paint or primer? :whistling2::jester:


It was GD primer. That's the "good" stuff! :jester:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Yes. Is it true you buy a new 395 for every job?

:jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> Yes. Is it true you buy a new 395 for every job?
> 
> :jester:


Completely untrue.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Completely untrue.


My faith in you is now shaken Scott.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Any questions?


Yeah - when are you going to stop pussy footing around and tell us how you really feel about Behr and certain PT personalities?

And what do you have for lunch?

Oh, BTW - nice job of sequencing the shots of the job and on the results itself.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RH said:


> Yeah - when are you going to stop pussy footing around and tell us how you really feel about Behr



I guess now is as good a time as any to reveal my professional opinion about that. 

Behr is brought to us all by Masco, which also owns the Kilz brand. 

Here is a press release put out by Masco last year, regarding Kilz Max:

http://www.kilz.com/primer/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=c7e99fc10c087310VgnVCM100000176310acRCRD

Note who the painter quoted is, and what he says about Kilz primer in comparison to paint and primer in one combos. That was about a year ago. 

More recently, I was the pro advisor in the Kilz Paintervention:

http://www.kilz.com/primer/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=3641398e658fc310VgnVCM100000176310acRCRD

Yup, its true:

http://masco.com/products/decorative-architectural-products/

That is one thing I like about this business. Businesses like people who tell the truth. It is a sign of credibility.


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## Romanski (May 4, 2008)

I have 1 burning question.

Did you wrap your 18" roller with tape before loading it to remove loose fibers? Or that 1st room must look like crap :jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Romanski said:


> I have 1 burning question.
> 
> Did you wrap your 18" roller with tape before loading it to remove loose fibers? Or that 1st room must look like crap :jester:


What you see right there is an Arroworthy Microfiber 3/8" nap, bone ass stock. 

Its interesting you bring that up...my colleague Brian recently tweeted at the roller manufacturers on twitter that 3/8" nap rollers were "useless" to pro painters. 

Its all we use, and Arroworthy makes a dandy nap.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

One last little bit of nonsense that needs clarification...

Just as primers have been subject to some misinformation lately, tapes have too. It has been suggested by some that there are no painter tapes on the market that "work".

Here is one that works like crazy. We purchased it for use in today's project featured in this thread.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Scott, I am worried - what happened to all the love between you and Havanas?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Bender said:


> Yes. Is it true you buy a new 395 for every job?
> 
> :jester:


He doesn't need to. Graco sends him a new one "on the house". Lucky ba$tard ;-)

Btw thanks for clearing up this whole primer thing! I was beginning to wonder about all those jobs I've primed over the last 20 years and why nobody was calling up complaining about flashing or adhesion or porosity. Just lucky I guess.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm sure we are going about this all wrong, but today we are going to sand all of the primed walls and ceilings to 150 to smooth them out but leave some "tooth" for adhesion (APC readers will find my "From the Field" column discusses some of the myths and realities of adhesion in this months issue). 

Then, we will spray and backroll all ceilings. Same set up. 395 Ultra, 515 tip, Arroworthy microfiber 18" 3/8 nap. Eminence flat on ceilings.

We work the house from the top down. As soon as ceilings are sprayed, we double back, pull plastic, and start wall coats. 

I will certainly let you guys know if I show up today and do not see equalization in the primer seal between mud joints and paper faces in the walls and ceilings. Or, maybe we will start applying paint and things will start flashing and popping all over the place? 

Doubt it. Like Damon, I have been doing this for a few years and to be honest, drywall priming and painting is probably the easiest thing that we do. 

Anyone else besides me and Damon seeing this as an over hyped issue, or are guys really having "severe failures" as Head Honcho keeps saying?


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

No wonder my primer always fails... I thought you were supposed to prime after you painted... and then they told me they would just mix the primer into my can of paint so I didn't need to use primer anymore! DOH!


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Well GD! We have a pro here on PT that uses the same system that has been proven for year's go figure... 

I get a good chuckle outta paint and primer in one can, it's rated #1 by who is the question I ask..


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Delta Painting said:


> I get a good chuckle outta paint and primer in one can, it's rated #1 by who is the question I ask..


Well, BM's is JD power...

Who ranks the orange box's stuff? I've asked numerous times in many stores, never once was I given an answer. 

On a side note, I have eaten "The Worlds best Pizza" no less than 5 times from from 5 different restaurants.....


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Totally Primer...not to be confused with paint and primer in 1.


Well, maybe before you knock Behr paint and primer in one, you should try it. Or better yet, doing an equal comparison, of the two different products on the same job on the same exact surface. That would be an interesting and fair test to do.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I have seen very few cases of adhesion problems on dry wall. And those few seemed to have been caused by user errors like not dusting the rock, or over sanded durabond. I have never seen a 'severe failure' on dry wall that couldn't be explained by user error. 

It does seem that some primers seal better than others. And I don't necessarily think 'paint & primer' or self priming paint is Junk. The primer test in the other thread, was not even relevant to how prime and paint systems work, because the finish paint used was not designed to be applied over primer..

Thanks for posting these results, I'm interested to see the finish. There are two coat systems out there from all the manufactures.  If they do work, that certainly doesn't mean that the tried and true 3 coat systems are all of the sudden 'inferior. 
Conversely, the fact that three coat systems do work, doesn't necessarily mean that the newer 2ct systems can't work, or are just marketing BS and junk. 

What is unfortunate, is that this discussion was started, and is being continued, as a personal attack from a user if one system, to a user of another...


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Shall I continue? I can do this all GD night. No trick photos or vids, no time lapse happy horse crap, and I promise you, no wet photos.


Jack Pauhl for President and Vermont painter for Vice President. Yay I'm so impressed.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

MIZZOU said:


> Yeah why you guys spraying with dust mask


Spraying with a dust mask, will get you a nasal cavity filled with low VOC primer. Hey, but its low VOC, so enjoy the taste as the paint drips down your throat.


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## GMack (Jan 18, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Any questions?


How long did that take you? I would have been packed up and driving away by 10:15.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Its a Steve Richards thang.


I believe it's more of a "Satan thang"..but I'm still honored to be mentioned on page one of an awesome thread. Thanks VP.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Can we redo? It was a bit fast for me slow it down next time. 
Thanks

....


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> What is *unfortunate*, is that this discussion was started, and is being continued, as a personal attack from a user if one system, to a user of another...


You meant "awesome", right?

I didn't follow the whole thread, but it looked to me like JP called him out...and this is VP stepping out into the dusty street w/his guns blazing.


BTW
JP.. wash or toss those 24 rollers?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MuraCoat said:


> Spraying with a dust mask, will get you a nasal cavity filled with low VOC primer. Hey, but its low VOC, so enjoy the taste as the paint drips down your throat.


If the mask fits properly, it will stop the particles. If you know how to operate an airless pump, and tip selection, you can minimize the over spray and fog.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> If the mask fits properly, it will stop the particles. If you know how to operate an airless pump, and tip selection, you can minimize the over spray and fog.


Been using these myself, great sealing power. Found them on sale at the habitat for humanity store for 5 bucks a box, got over 100 boxes

....


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

NCPaint1 said:


> If the mask fits properly, it will stop the particles. If you know how to operate an airless pump, and tip selection, you can minimize the over spray and fog.


 A dust mask, does not stop 100 percent of the paint from getting through into your nasal passages. Especially if you are spraying ceilings where your head is tilted back. 

When was the last time you sprayed 40 gallons of white paint, interior, with a dust mask? I did several months ago, and I assure you I had white nostrils when I was done.

And are you going to tell me, after painting 30 years, that I don't have a credible opinion based on actual facts & proof?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I will certainly let you guys know if I show up today and do not see equalization in the primer seal between mud joints and paper faces in the walls and ceilings. Or, maybe we will start applying paint and things will start flashing and popping all over the place?
> 
> Doubt it. Like Damon, I have been doing this for a few years and to be honest, drywall priming and painting is probably the easiest thing that we do.
> 
> Anyone else besides me and Damon seeing this as an over hyped issue, or are guys really having "severe failures" as Head Honcho keeps saying?


Well to be honest It's been a long long long time since I've primed new drywall on a job - typically I come across veneer plaster when there is new work to be done. But I've never heard about any issues or even suspected any issues, I remember we would use I believe superspec drywall primer, kind of a boring white backgroud on the label and perhaps green or some other color for the lettering. And then a couple of coats of of Regal paint - I don't remember any issues? But there's a lot of things I never come across like Brian displays - that one picture where there is I believe it's called hat-banding, where the cuts along the ceiling or whatever look dramatically different from the rolled areas - to be quite honest I haven't seen that ever happen since the 80s. I suspect it's Brian's 'systems' that make him adulterate his products to the point they do funny things - I just use the stuff straight out of the cans and never F' with it. 

Heck - I did one job where I made a bunch of plaster repairs along these cracks in the wall and had my nephew prime them with a 3" roller - he even double-primed them. And this was Muralo's interior/exterior all-purpose primer with a shiny eggshell finish. And I cut and rolled one coat of Ben Moore's Classic Regal Matte finish. And it was so perfect I didn't even put a second coat on! How do you explain that if primer is useless? If I didn't prime - I know it would have flashed really bad and I would be putting a second coat of regal paint - saved me a lot of time in labor because of the spot priming. How would Havanas explain that?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MuraCoat said:


> A dust mask, does not stop 100 percent of the paint from getting through into your nasal passages. Especially if you are spraying ceilings where your head is tilted back.


Well, when something fits properly, the angle of the head becomes irrelevant. 

If I put on "fat man" pants they'll fall off. If I jump up and down, they'll still fall off. If I wear pants that are my size, I can do any activity and they don't fall off.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

NCPaint1 said:


> Well, when something fits properly, the angle of the head becomes irrelevant.
> 
> If I put on "fat man" pants they'll fall off. If I jump up and down, they'll still fall off. If I wear pants that are my size, I can do any activity and they don't fall off.


Well that's just it NC, dust masks do not fit securely to the face during the course of a complete work day. Your face is not a stiff board, your face moves, your jaw moves. And paint therefore gets under the mask. There is no vacuum between your face and mask like there is with a respirator.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Great..here comes an "about particle masks" thread.

I can't wait to get home.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

NCPaint1 said:


> Well, when something fits properly, the angle of the head becomes irrelevant.
> 
> If I put on "fat man" pants they'll fall off. If I jump up and down, they'll still fall off. If I wear pants that are my size, I can do any activity and they don't fall off.


What you're saying makes no sense, a dust mask comes in one size fits all. And if you listen carefully to the description of the product "dust mask" that should give you a clue as to what a dust mask is designed for.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I would be curious to see if VP sees the seams and board drying at different rates. I am not sure how much it matters, since when I have seen that it still turns out fine when everything is dry. When I have seams stand out after the finish coats, it is a texture thing, not a sheen thing. And spraying and backrolling the primer is the best way I have found to minimize the texture thing. Just rolling? :no: Just spraying? :no: Spraying and backrolling? :yes:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MuraCoat said:


> Well that's just it NC, dust masks do not fit securely to the face during the course of a complete work day. Your face is not a stiff board, your face moves, your jaw moves. And paint therefore gets under the mask. There is no vacuum between your face and mask like there is with a respirator.


I should have clarified, that the .79¢ ones are junk and do as you say. They are rigid and don't contour.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I would be curious to see if VP sees the seams and board drying at different rates.* I am not sure how much it matters, since when I have seen that it still turns out fine when everything is dry*. When I have seams stand out after the finish coats, it is a texture thing, not a sheen thing. And spraying and backrolling the primer is the best way I have found to minimize the texture thing. Just rolling? :no: Just spraying? :no: Spraying and backrolling? :yes:


Exactly, when all coats have been applied to spec and no steps have been skipped trying to pocket extra money, or compete with some jackass who is, then most every major paint store brand product will perform as expected.


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## finish (Jan 13, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> What is unfortunate, is that this discussion was started, and is being continued, as a personal attack from a user if one system, to a user of another...


Some helpful information contained here, but the real purpose looks like to prove who has a bigger Johnson.

Are y'all that insecure? 

We can't read great product data here with out getting wet from all the pee ?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

That wasn't his purpose at all. It was to dispel myths being portrayed as absolute fact. To prove that priming and painting drywall isn't some great feat that requires some special system to achieve professional results.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

NCPaint1 said:


> I should have clarified, that the .79¢ ones are junk and do as you say. They are rigid and don't contour.


I was not referring to $0.79 dust masks. When I get home, I will take a photo of the ones that I have in my truck. And upload to paint talk.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its good to see people thinking about things around here. Thats a good thing. 

There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate. Those who have been here since '07 have seen alot of it, and many times it can be done respectfully. 

Brian and I disagree about some things. We agree about others. We are both adults and can live with that. 

Brian called me about 3 years ago after a big hoorang on paint talk, and said hey lets not try to have a dialogue in that format. Its more productive to talk directly. I do think thats true. But it would also be nice to be able to share these topics with other professionals without derailment or total division. 

There are many ways to paint a house. 

I have seen it all in new construction in the past 20+ years. I have seen houses built with no sheathing. 1" foam board slapped on framing and vinyl stapled right over the top...but crown molding and marble countertops inside. Using Behr on raw drywall is no big crime. It probably works. I won't do a 4k sf experiment with it, because I don't really care.

I think Behr paint is equivalent to lots of other lines by manufacturers. I still just have this lump in my throat from all the failed Behr I have been hired to strip over the years, on exteriors and concrete floors. They are not an evil company, their paint is not total crap, and Brian is not a scam artist. He's passionate and shares alot of info that helps people. Everyone does things a little bit different, and Brian would be the first to tell you that he is very unconventional. Different strokes for different folks, life goes on. 

Get back to work, everyone. There is more important stuff than this.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

MuraCoat said:


> Well, maybe before you knock Behr paint and primer in one, you should try it. Or better yet, doing an equal comparison, of the two different products on the same job on the same exact surface. That would be an interesting and fair test to do.


I doubt he wants to experiment with a project like that. I wouldn't. No time.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> I doubt he wants to experiment with a project like that. I wouldn't. No time.


Then don't knock behr paint if you haven't tried it.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Might I respectfully suggest that those who need to talk more about Behr visit the Behr thread. 

This is the primer thread. As N8 would say: "This is a no stir zone".


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I wonder about the old guys doing painting 50-60 years ago - I know there was exterior oil primer back then because I've seen a can of primer from that era - but I suspect most work on the interior of a home primer was never used. I don't have proof of this - but from observations, seems like lots of oil paint went on walls and trim with no primer. Painting back in the 80s - I know for a fact that the majority of guys I know - not high end, mostly apartment painting - there was really not much priming going on. They had this flat paint back then, typically bone white, that was a flat and went directly on walls and was sold as a prime/paint in one operation - Basically a contractor's flat. And I remember in the 90s when I was doing a lot of painting with buddies doing pretty high end residential - we typically used ceiling paint as a primer on walls and even trim.

I know hordes of homeowners have been using paint directly onto substrates for decades and primer that most professionals use today; are used to combat many of the issues with adhesion, bleed, etc that happened from paint directly on substrate.

My experience with Behr, especially their interior latex primer - is that it hardly penetrates - it just sits there on top of the surface, I've had failures with it on plaster that wasn't perfectly cured. I suspect if I can get adhesion failure with their primer that this is exasperated with their paint, since it isn't 100% committed to primer qualities. 

Another good reason to use drywall primer is to plug up the pores of the drywall and mud to prevent too much paint from plunging too deeply and causing a great loss of sheen - I've seen satins end up looking like flats because of this. Personally, I never thought brand new walls and the first paint job ever looked great - unless you use a flat and you don't worry about sheen differences. If you are going to use a paint that is shiny on walls like satin - I'd rather be the re-paint guy after the first paint job has been executed. I've seen this phenomena on joint compound repairs with satin sheen - after one coat of spot prime and then two coats, it's not so much a sheen difference, but it's more of a stipple difference - the stipple is just flat and the adjacent area that has already many coats of paint buildup has regular stipple pattern. This I can believe happens and makes people perceive a difference in sheen or something. Paint just seems to settle flatter on new substrate, nothing you can do about it - unless you spot roll a couple coats of primer first to achieve a better stipple holdout.


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

When I started painting back in the mid '80's we used flat with a little water added for primer on interior woodwork and we did mostly custom built high end homes.It sanded smooth and never had any issues with it.The contractor that I first worked for had a great reputation and always had work.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

200 primer will work fine as long as you can hide that crap up!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I would be curious to see if VP sees the seams and board drying at different rates. I am not sure how much it matters, since when I have seen that it still turns out fine when everything is dry. When I have seams stand out after the finish coats, it is a texture thing, not a sheen thing. And spraying and backrolling the primer is the best way I have found to minimize the texture thing. Just rolling? :no: Just spraying? :no: Spraying and backrolling? :yes:


Dean

The joints and screw skims generally appear to be drying faster than the paper facing. Technically, drying might not be the proper term, as it is more a reflection on the different rates of absorption between mud and paper. 

It does depend on what the tapers used. On our jobs, they seem to prefer to do final skim with a lightweight, after the first couple with more of an all purpose. Lightweight is soft, so it absorbs quickly. We remind our backrollers not to go ba k and mess with them during that awkward drying visual stage. In the end, if its a good primer, properly sprayed and backrolled, it all dries the same.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I've painted ceilings that already had many previous coats where certain areas stayed shiny for longer, basically didn't absorb as fast and just sat on the surface - but when it was all dry - it all looks uniform.


----------



## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Scott is by far my biggest fan.


----------



## finish (Jan 13, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> That wasn't his purpose at all. It was to dispel myths being portrayed as absolute fact. To prove that priming and painting drywall isn't some great feat that requires some special system to achieve professional results.


No great feat at all. Good simple lessons were showed. I enjoyed. Only some words distract from the teaching of basic painting. 

These words used are not instruction words. 



> happy horsecrap by these dolts My names not Pauhl, and I don't know about big FAT FAKE fictional Jack charactor
> 
> So easy, yup, even a girl can do it, I can do this all GD night. Meanwhile, stop wasting peoples time with nonsense.


More like personal attack words than classroom words.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

finish said:


> No great feat at all. Good simple lessons were showed. I enjoyed. Only some words distract from the teaching of basic painting.
> 
> These words used are not instruction words.
> 
> More like personal attack words than classroom words.


You should post more


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

To be fair JP called Scott to the mat first in another thread. This thread was the response.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Scott is by far my biggest fan.


Na I think that reward still is firmly in the hands of Alec, or rcon that winter with the red paint in the basement. :yes:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> To be fair JP called Scott to the mat first in another thread. This thread was the response.


That's correct. Brian did suggest that I was being unresponsive to his questions, and Troy wanted specifics on how I make primer work on drywall. A new thread was the prudent way.

I have a reputation for being sarcastic at times, and some of my language in this thread was. I am sure Brian and Troy cracked up when I referred to them as "dolts". I don't really think they are dolts.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am sure Brian knows you respect him, and hopefully there really was some useful knowledge gained from this thread. It just proves to me what I and several other knew already. That if the surface is ready to paint, and you apply you primer and paint correctly professional results can be expected.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Personally I think a 515 is too small for priming. I would run a 619 or 621 especially if I was back rolling. An 18" wand kills it too.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I haven't read the second page but was wondering why you don't opt for just 2 coats of aura instead.


----------



## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> One last little bit of nonsense that needs clarification...
> 
> Just as primers have been subject to some misinformation lately, tapes have too. It has been suggested by some that there are no painter tapes on the market that "work".
> 
> Here is one that works like crazy. We purchased it for use in today's project featured in this thread.


I've used the Phoenix yellow tape on a "faux" project.It was awesome.


----------



## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Regarding one being called to the mat by another. Okay if that is how anyone wants to perceive it, then fine. 

I think there has been more than one question brought to mind still in all fairness. I think some people are more partial to one personality than another and personally neither one suits me more or less than another. I'm actually surprised Scott bit. 

JP sure says a lot. Aside from all of the hype, here are two things that interest me. 

1. Use of a process for achieving an end result. (standard of quality)
2. Doing it efficiently. (making more money)

Thus far in this thread I have witnessed the beginning of a demonstration from a testing entity that will inevitably prove a primer and two top coats of paint will achieve an end result within an acceptable standard of quality. 

Another thread provides evidence produced by a different testing entity that the same end result within an acceptable standard of quality is achieved using only two coats of another product. 

If both testing entities are trustworthy, then I want to know which one provides less labor and more profit. 

Ah, but some like one testing entity more than another. Speaking from a business perspective, maybe both testing entities should test both processes and provide results, including product performance and time spent on some similar size and type of surface. 

That would fairly cover what, in my opinion, should matter to any business minded person that managed to get caught up in this, what appears to be, a battle of egos rather than a well intended effort to understand any possible advances in this industry and the benefits that could be born as a result.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

This topic is to basic for me to truly reply but I did thank a few posts. 

Keep priming/painting ppl.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> This topic is to basic for me to truly reply but I did thank a few posts.
> 
> Keep priming/painting ppl.


Tell me everything you know, and then shut up


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Tell me everything you know, and then shut up


That will be difficult because some think I know nothing.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> That will be difficult because some think I know nothing.


I don't know much myself.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I don't know much myself.


Yet you still found a way to prime new drywall. This world is getting weird.


----------



## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Other than time, why can't you test in same house?

2 crews
Same sprayers
Same tips
Same colors

And compare paints if equal $. Dont put a $50 behr against a $20 sw. 

Tell u what, gimme a grand and I'll do it. Build two 8*8*8 cubes dryall, mudd em... The works. 

Until thats done its all opinions...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> Yet you still found a way to prime new drywall. This world is getting weird.


Very weird. I'm going back to short posts.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Very weird. I'm going back to short posts.


I have been accused of having mostly seven word posts but as you can see this one is a biggie.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I have been accused of having mostly seven word posts but as you can see this one is a biggie.


Short, sweet.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Short, sweet.


No confusion


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> No confusion


At all


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Tell me everything you know, and then shut up


Crap. Is my ex-wife logged into Scott's account?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Crap. Is my ex-wife logged into Scott's account?


He's been known to rent it out


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Crap. Is my ex-wife logged into Scott's account?


I turn my kids loose on mine sometimes.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> He's been known to rent it out


There goes all my fun.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I turn my kids loose on mine sometimes.


I'm gonna try a little used but highly effective line: "I wasnt insulting Jack, I was insulting myself!"


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Paul, was your ex short? And sweet? And stuff?


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

You derailed your own basics thread. Weird world indeed.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Paul, was your ex short? And sweet? And stuff?


I'm all confused now......


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> You derailed your own basics thread. Weird world indeed.


Welcome to my world


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> You derailed your own basics thread. Weird world indeed.


WE helped a little. :whistling2:


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> I'm all confused now......


Just answer the question. Or post pics. :whistling2:


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> WE helped a little. :whistling2:


I think we were supporting actors in this strange primer play.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I just bought a new Flotec pump. 1/2 hp electric, fitting the check valve now with Teflon at all threaded connections


----------



## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Totally Primer...not to be confused with paint and primer in 1.


ProMar 200 /400 / 700 are junk.


----------



## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Might I respectfully suggest that those who need to talk more about Behr visit the Behr thread.
> 
> This is the primer thread. As N8 would say: "This is a no stir zone".


Scott, you start a thread, which starts off by calling PT users "dolts" and every other post by you contains the words "Behr" or "Jack Pauhl". And then you make statements such as, _"__So, there has been alot of happy horsecrap shared lately about primers."_ Then you accuse me of stirring the pot? (lol) Well, sorry, I am not your "fan boy"!

So, you primed the walls. What are you trying to prove? I thought this was a pro painters forum, not an apprentice training forum...

And stuff!


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Oh boy you did it now ..passive aggressive reply coming your way hold on


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I prime drywall with finish for the most part. Pro mar 200. thousands and thousands of gallons every year.Two coats is acceptable. three coats is primo nice. Never seen so much as a square foot of it fall off or anything like that. Swear to god.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Oden said:


> I prime drywall with finish for the most part. Pro mar 200. thousands and thousands of gallons every year.Two coats is acceptable. three coats is primo nice. Never seen so much as a square foot of it fall off or anything like that. Swear to god.


Ditto, but I use a different finish


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

MuraCoat said:


> So, you primed the walls. What are you trying to prove? I thought this was a pro painters forum, not an apprentice training forum...
> 
> And stuff!


The same could be said for many threads. There is a wide range of skill sets at pt tolerance goes a long way. 

In Scott's defense he was told he failed to deliver in a primer conversation so he showed primers are essentially elementary.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

MuraCoat said:


> ProMar 200 /400 / 700 are junk.


You're on glue.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

It's a old can of rich lux. I painted my basement with it some years back and kept some for the repaint, It was leftover from a big job but....nothin to do with it.

It's eggshell. the can says right on it drywall-self priming. It might be ten years old by now.(man, time flies) Point being that Behr and the Home Depot didn't revolutionize anything and JP isn't turning me or mine onto anything we didn't know a long time ago. 

I think the drywall primers go on easier, go further, and they sand better for the most part. If you prime with finish you give up some of those traits but you only need the one product and you get the color and the sheen on the wall right away. Gettim the color and sheen on right away is muy importante to me, in my work, which is commercial new construction. For like a whole list of reasons I need that color and sheen on right away.


----------



## NPYYZ (May 7, 2013)

I always find it interesting to see how other painters do their thing. We go into our new construction jobs with 35 gallons of flat white Sherwin Williams Master hide , at $12.00 per gallon it's a money saver , and it covers well. Spray on and back roll the same way except when we are done the ceilings are finished and the walls are what we call primed , even though MH is a paint , not a primer. We don't need to cover the windows either because we roll around them with the 18" before we spray. Saves a bit of time and money on plastic and tape.

At this point we are done for a week and a half while the finish carpenter comes in, installs the trim, doors and such, we return, fill holes, sand , caulk , tape windows, spray trim and doors with SW Super paint, cut and roll one finish coat of SW Pro Mar 200 Dover White flat on walls. Then 3 coats on poly on stair treads and handrails and we are on to the next one.

Never had any issues with the paint even though we never use an "official" primer. Been doing it this way for the past 15 years.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I looked at the who is online page and this is a popular thread.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Its weird how basic this subject is.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I looked at the who is online page and this is a popular thread.


I just found the "other" thread today. Had to see what all the fuss was about. Prefer to read this one though. Can never talk to much about primers.


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Where was everybody at when I had a thread about getting finish off cause I forgot to prime ?.... I see how it is an for the record I still can't get the finish off so I can prime it then paint it correctly cause if I don't prime it it will fall off ....


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Ole34 said:


> I still can't get the finish off so I can prime it then paint it correctly cause if I don't prime it it will fall off ....


Kind of like the rule that the paint drip will fall on THE ONE SPOT that isn't covered by the drop?


----------



## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Kind of like the rule that the paint drip will fall on THE ONE SPOT that isn't covered by the drop?


Hey, when I first started I was amazed by that "phenomenon" my boss? Not so much


----------



## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I dripped a drop back in the '90's but it landed on a fly.:whistling2:
(or is that dropped a drip?)


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

crews of illegal aliens, hillbillies, and even californians are priming and painting cookie cutters every day with great results. this is not rocket science!


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Just got done reading this epic.

That mura coat is one angry person? yes?


----------



## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

6 pages and no one mentioned Gardz. I do all my new drywall priming with it and I'm very pleased with my results. To each their own.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Its weird how basic this subject is.


Don't we always meet them where they're at?


----------



## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Just got done reading this epic.
> 
> That mura coat is one angry person? yes?


Ya Think?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Just a half a car length past "excessively enthusiastic"


----------



## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

squid said:


> 6 pages and no one mentioned Gardz. I do all my new drywall priming with it and I'm very pleased with my results. To each their own.


I have some new drywall priming work now and couldn't find ANY Gardz. I was beginning to think they discontinued the stuff. I loved it too, but had to run the bullseye 123 for this job.


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> Don't we always meet them where they're at?


Whoa. That is deep. Or low. Or both, but I dabble in lowbrow myself.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Csheils said:


> Whoa. That is deep. Or low. Or both, but I dabble in lowbrow myself.


Its the lowest form of flattery. But, the way I look at it, you always know where the bar is set.


----------



## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

Wood511 said:


> I have some new drywall priming work now and couldn't find ANY Gardz. I was beginning to think they discontinued the stuff. I loved it too, but had to run the bullseye 123 for this job.


 I saw the other day that Roman has their version out.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Csheils said:


> Whoa. That is deep. Or low.


My head bats this around all day long as a litmus test for alot of things. Fine line.


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

squid said:


> I saw the other day that Roman has their version out.


They do I used it last week. I forgot to pick some Gardz up at Ace and saw the Roman version at SW. 

It looked like gardz, smelt like gardz, and had the same consistancy. It worked fine for what I used it for but I haven't used it enough to determine if it's a suitable replacement.


----------



## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

vermontpainter said:


> My head bats this around all day long as a litmus test for alot of things. Fine line.


Well, I think it's funny. And it's all about me, and you guys are just passing through, so..


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Csheils said:


> Well, I think it's funny. And it's all about me, and you guys are just passing through, so..


Paint talk is the Hotel California, if you exceed 1000 posts. You can check out anytime you like, but...you can never leave.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Uh oh...I have some big decisions to make.....


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> Uh oh...I have some big decisions to make.....


Get out, now. 26 posts can pass in a flash. Stop, breathe, think.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

But if...I just...keep...posting...pointless....replies....I can attain...GREATNESS...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> But if...I just...keep...posting...pointless....replies....I can attain...GREATNESS...


With such great power comes great responsibility. I only ask you to consider that fates of those who've come through before you.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

kdpaint said:


> But if...I just...keep...posting...pointless....replies....I can attain...GREATNESS...


Your doomed.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

What


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

do you mean? I wanna be like the cool kids soooo baaad!


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> do you mean? I wanna be like the cool kids soooo baaad!


The cool kids have all left the building and are discouraged from returning. All the more reason to leave. Now.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Something is controlling me...can't...stop...posting....crap...


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

kdpaint said:


> Something is controlling me...can't...stop...posting....crap...


Welcome to my world. How do you think I got over 7k posts? :whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Why dont we all log out now for like 2 days and stuff or something.


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Why dont we all log out now for like 2 days and stuff or something.


You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.


Well, it would spare you from the drivel I'm posting....


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> Something is controlling me...can't...stop...posting....crap...


Easy there, 1,000 is the proverbial gateway drug, next thing you know you are checking PT all hours, keeping a tab open, never signing out, then post count is in double digits, you become a mod, quit and ban yourself for 30 days, and go into PT rehab. Then one day you say, "I'll just log in for a few minutes" and the vicious cycle starts again. And you aren't even a GD Painter!:jester:


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Dare to dream..... 
who's not a painter?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I've accepted this trade for what it is, from the single coat blow out to the triple coat finish. I'll never claim to be an expert of either but understand the need for both. I know this to be true after many years of experience. I will never burden myself with being the best.


Sorry V, didn't mean to get all esoteric on your informational thread.


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Eh, I never wanted to be the best myself. Just good, reliable and honest.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Rbriggs82 said:


> They do I used it last week. I forgot to pick some Gardz up at Ace and saw the Roman version at SW.
> 
> It looked like gardz, smelt like gardz, and had the same consistancy. It worked fine for what I used it for but I haven't used it enough to determine if it's a suitable replacement.


Ryan,

First, don't get me wrong I LOVE Roman, and their CEO, Jerry Russo. I'm loyal as a Pats fan when all they have for a tight end is T-Bone. I despise the big Z . . .for many reasons.

BUT, Romans Rx 35 (or whatever they call THEIR Draw-Tite knock off) is C-R-A-P. IMO.

They sent me qt free (WHOOOPEE) upon request. I tested it on some porous mud before hanging some commercial vinyl. IT DID NOT HAVE THE SEALING PROPERTIES OF GARDZ, let alone the original, Draw-tite. 

This is not a vindictive motivated slam on Roman, just an honest product evaluation. 

I TRULY wish they had come up with a viable alternative.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Jerry's cool. So is the big Z. Don't be a Z-hater! 

;-)


----------



## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

Anyone wear a full face mask while spraying? A friend of mine uses one and swears by it. Says it's a lot more comfortable. I always have problems with my goggles fogging up because I sweat so much. Apparently the full face masks don't have that issue.


----------



## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

MuraCoat said:


> A dust mask, does not stop 100 percent of the paint from getting through into your nasal passages. Especially if you are spraying ceilings where your head is tilted back.
> 
> When was the last time you sprayed 40 gallons of white paint, interior, with a dust mask? I did several months ago, and I assure you I had white nostrils when I was done.
> 
> And are you going to tell me, after painting 30 years, that I don't have a credible opinion based on actual facts & proof?


I was responding to this comment.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Westview said:


> Anyone wear a full face mask while spraying? A friend of mine uses one and swears by it. Says it's a lot more comfortable. I always have problems with my goggles fogging up because I sweat so much. Apparently the full face masks don't have that issue.


Yes, and it works great. As an eyeglass wearer with a case of CSS, I had to sacrifice one pair of glasses to install in the face mask, so that was a big drawback. I also recommend the peel-off covers for the faceplates.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> Ryan,
> 
> First, don't get me wrong I LOVE Roman, and their CEO, Jerry Russo. I'm loyal as a Pats fan when all they have for a tight end is T-Bone. I despise the big Z . . .for many reasons.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

daArch said:


> Ryan,
> 
> First, don't get me wrong I LOVE Roman, and their CEO, Jerry Russo. I'm loyal as a Pats fan when all they have for a tight end is T-Bone. I despise the big Z . . .for many reasons.
> 
> ...


Well it did look, feel, and smell like it. Maybe I should use taste in my next round of scientific testing? 

I only used it to seal some minor drywall tears, it was fine for that. After hearing your opinion I'll just keep it in the truck as back up if I happen to run out of the good stuff. :thumbsup:


----------



## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> I guess now is as good a time as any to reveal my professional opinion about that.
> 
> Behr is brought to us all by Masco, which also owns the Kilz brand.
> 
> ...


As a caveat let me say, 'I'm just a caveman. I'm confused and frightened by your in-depth discussions on primer'. 

Ok that being said I'm I clicked the links that the member included in the quoted post and I'm not sure I understand what it is that's supposed to be revealed there. I've read this entire thread twice and I'm a bit confused about what it's stating. 

These are my questions. Oh, and as another caveat let me be clear I have no pony in this race. I'm just a painter who is legitimately curious about primer. And also I'm now interested in the Jack Pauhl angle. 
Questions: 

• what is your conclusion regarding priming bare drywall?

• are you suggesting that Jack Pauhl is not a real person but rather a corporate straw man?

• JP is referenced several times in this thread. Is the position/view of the OP regarding primer the complete opposite of Jack Pauhl's stance on primer?

• Is it JP's schilling of Behr that makes him particularly contentious or is it just his outspoken nature in general? 

Thanks for answering my questions guys.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

GreenGuy said:


> As a caveat let me say, 'I'm just a caveman. I'm confused and frightened by your in-depth discussions on primer'.
> 
> Ok that being said I'm I clicked the links that the member included in the quoted post and I'm not sure I understand what it is that's supposed to be revealed there. I've read this entire thread twice and I'm a bit confused about what it's stating.
> 
> ...


Hey Guy, 

Good questions. 

1. I prefer primer on new drywall. Whether it is primer and one coat of finish , primer plus 2, I prefer to prime, for many reasons - mostly related to the type of work we do. 

2. Jack Pauhl is not a real person. It is a brand that was created by Brian Havanas many years ago. Brian is a real person. I have spoken with him. 

3. It is probably safe to say that Brian and I have differences in our opinions on primers. 

4. I don't think contentious is the right word. I don't think Brian posts things to be argumentative. Certainly not by comparison with other members. I think Brian is passionate about what he does, and the fact that he takes a very unconventional approach, makes some of his topics divisive. 

I posted the links above because some people here have called me a Behr hater. I am not. I have partnered with Masco on some of their own projects. Also, I find it interesting that Masco (which owns the Behr brand) also owns a great primer brand (KILZ). They got it figured out.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Damon T said:


> Jerry's cool. So is the big Z. Don't be a Z-hater!
> 
> ;-)


yah I know, shouldn't hate. The Big Z does have some great products, ALL of their shellac based, their roots. And I love Wm Zinnser's book "On Writing Well" (I believe 3rd generation Wm Zinsser).

But IMO, they should have stopped with their perfection of shellac. 

Their attempt to make inroads into the wallpaper paste market was a total disaster - didn't take too many free 5's for all of us to learn to stay away. 

I have had product failure with Shieldz. 

But most of my low admiration is generated by one who is no longer employed by them, Jack (ass) Ford. He went out of the way to make it VERY personal. 

I have always relied on the Big Z's shellac products, and now am forced to use gardz, although I wish Scotch Paints could get their distribution act together so that we all could easily buy the REAL stuff - Draw-Tite. 

OK, rant over :thumbsup: 

until the next time :yes:


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Hey Guy,
> 
> Good questions.
> 
> ...


 
one of them, anyway( the old oil) IMO:whistling2:


----------



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

chrisn said:


> one of them, anyway( the old oil) IMO:whistling2:


Original kilz oil makes my trim look and feel happy.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

What do you guys prefer: kills oil or coverstain?


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Paradigmzz said:


> Original kilz oil makes my trim look and feel happy.


And you don't even remember painting it. :jester:


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

TJ Paint said:


> What do you guys prefer: kills oil or coverstain?


 Cover stain is superior by far to me. It will do anything kilz will do, block stains etc.. With the added benefit of being a bonding primer.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Cover stain is superior by far to me. It will do anything kilz will do, block stains etc.. With the added benefit of being a bonding primer.


Agreed I'd choose Cover Stain over Kilz any day.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Agreed I'd choose Cover Stain over Kilz any day.


 :yes:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I like oil based kilz, it's a great enamel undercoater for interior application. I think coverstain is a great product - but my beef with it is that it's a bit heavy duty for interior applications and a bit light duty for exterior applications. So to me it's like a mid-tier product that doesn't have much application for me. If I am outside - I choose a much heavier duty exterior oil primer - or even the quicker dry alkyds that I still believer are heavier duty. When I am inside, oil based kilz is a good bargain and does pretty much what I want it to do. It would never meet the challenges of the exterior like coverstain would, but I don't care - I am already using Cabot's problem solver or Ben Moore 100.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

mudbone said:


> :yes:


:yes:


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## ptp (Oct 4, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> What do you guys prefer: kills oil or coverstain?


I've always had great success with cover stain myself.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

guy i know who trains dogs was hell bent on protection training his airedale/doberman mix just to prove a point but between me an you it was more about him then anything else kinda like ''look what i can do with a mix..im amazing...arent I ??'' ..then theres always that guy on your street who drops a small block into a K car or the idiot out on the trails with a 2x4 truck hitting the mud and cant forget the guy who wears shorts out in the snow an flip flops at christmas so as a long as there are people out there who oppose a product there will be an even longer list of people lining up to take on the challenge....BTW cover stain to get er done an Killz if you have the camera running


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

I definitely found myself having knee jerk reactions to jp's statements. The reasons why include: the silent "h" in his brand name, the orange color in the logo, and the constant pandering to use the product with the same silent "h" from the store with same orange color. All the while, he is 'merely passing on knowledge' and not at all tied to the company. 

Stir in the seven foot, one stroke, single coat, finished product claims and I was inclined to be a little more than skeptical. 

I must admit, I never previously had such a severe distaste for the stuff until I started reading his sensationalism.

I apologize for letting myself get so worked up about it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

caulktheline said:


> I definitely found myself having knee jerk reactions to jp's statements. The reasons why include: the silent "h" in his brand name, the orange color in the logo, and the constant pandering to use the product with the same silent "h" from the store with same orange color. All the while, he is 'merely passing on knowledge' and not at all tied to the company.
> 
> Stir in the seven foot, one stroke, single coat, finished product claims and I was inclined to be a little more than skeptical.
> 
> ...



Are you getting worked up about someone claiming Behr can perform fabulous feats, or are you getting worked up about someone claiming to have the fastest system using a particular paint product that happens to be Behr?


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

It's the used car salesman approach I get worked up about. 

I am presently but a lowly property painter. At one complex, I go into apartments with flat antique white walls. I am asked to put a coat of chum-colored eggshell sw property solutions. One coat. It always covers; it always touches up. For barely over 20 a gallon it would seem this one coat wonder has a competitive advantage over the two coat, more expensive behr. Find one post of me screaming this from the rooftops.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I bet Brian's entire house is painted with Benjamin Moore an now that I said it he'll never come out an admit it..... But we know yes we know Brian an we find out where you live the whole world will know :-(


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Sorry, I forgot this was the put up or shut up thread 










nothing special, just some apartment painting.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jeepers cats, that is a narrow hallway. We put pink in one of the kids bedrooms we sprayed with 200 the other day. Pink is good.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

An experienced painter can make a stress free killing on jobs like that


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> An experienced painter can make a stress free killing on jobs like that


I tell ya I really enjoy work. I've worked for other people on res repaint, NC, and hotel/casino paint maintenance (where one really learns that the taping knife is a better friend than the sander). I started a modest company a little over a year ago, and have decided I will focus strictly on this type of work for awhile, rather than burning up my time trying to bid "we do everything" stuff. The new APC tells me this is a smart decision that fits my present situation. Maybe one day I will climb to the level of getting to put two coats of p&pn1 on bare drywall. I keed, I keed.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> I tell ya I really enjoy work. I've worked for other people on res repaint, NC, and hotel/casino paint maintenance (where one really learns that the taping knife is a better friend than the sander). I started a modest company a little over a year ago, and have decided I will focus strictly on this type of work for awhile, rather than burning up my time trying to bid "we do everything" stuff. The new APC tells me this is a smart decision that fits my present situation. Maybe one day I will climb to the level of getting to put two coats of p&pn1 on bare drywall. I keed, I keed.


That's how I started out too,CTL.. but I'm thankful I gradually got out of that...for the most part anyhow.

Pretty stress free. Almost fun seeing how fast you can get at 'em. Careful though..too many apartment re-paints can make you just a little bit crazy.
Especially in a large complex, when all the layouts are exactly the same..and only the nail hole placement changes.
...at least that's what I've been told.

Probably tough not ending up a hack too.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> That's how I started out too,CTL.. but I'm thankful I gradually got out of that...for the most part anyhow.
> 
> Pretty stress free. Almost fun seeing how fast you can get at 'em. Careful though..too many apartment re-paints can make you just a little bit crazy.
> Especially in a large complex, when all the layouts are exactly the same..and only the nail hole placement changes.
> ...


There is no reason to not do a good job every time. We sweep all the cobwebs, clean stuff up, remove plates and wash them, clean the overspray off of the vanities from the last painter, put trim paint on returns rather than brush/miniroll wall color on them, caulk cracks, fill holes, and still are able to move quickly and make good money. The hotel/casino work taught me something about clean speed.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

I will admit we didn't wash plates until RH said he did, and I thought 'why am i not doing that?' Total thread hijack here.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Funny...I washed plates UNTIL I saw he did.

j/k

I never washed a plate before.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Get back to work, everyone. There is more important stuff than this.























Does this mean no finish pics?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Simple topic complicated by painters. Thanks painters.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

I'm serving on a Norwegian vessel off the West Coast of Africa.

I turned the Boatswain Position over From a Norwegian Bosun to an Icelandic Bosun.

I had to go over the International Marine Paints
Schedule with him and translate everything from American English to English to Nords.

What an experience that was mils to microns is always fun.

But I have admit that Yotum Marine Primers are the very best on the market. That's what their use to.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

robladd said:


> I'm serving on a Norwegian vessel off the West Coast of Africa.
> 
> 
> But I have admit that Yotum Marine Primers are the very best on the market. That's what their use to.


Tell 'em that Behr premium ultra would do the same thing, for a lot less money.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> Tell 'em that Behr premium ultra would do the same thing, for a lot less money.


Damn, I'm cracking up here and I haven't even smoked or sprayed anything that would give me the giggles!:blink:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Tell 'em that Behr premium ultra would do the same thing, for a lot less money.


The Penquin's Jotamastic 90 comes in Multi Color Industry (MCI) tinting system.

The Penquin can Surf.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

The following can save painters thousands, easily, literally.

Promar 200 vs BEHR Premium Plus Flat Enamel 

The following preliminary test is not about personal perception or personal acceptance of a drywall primer, rather a test to uncover which paint or primer/sealer products best equalize porosity over bare drywall to achieve solid uniform finishes. We all have different expectations about what product should be capable of. If a product says it "seals" then as a painter I "expect" it to seal and when it doesn't "seal", i'm not sure using the word "seals" is appropriate because surfaces are either sealed or they are not sealed. 

Q:
Why is equalizing porosity between drywall mud and drywall important?

A:
When porosity between drywall mud(s) and board is not equalized, all of the following is affected. Sheen uniformity/holdout, film retention, achieving true depth of color, making and painting wall patches, sandability, touch-up ability, scrubability, durability, adhesion, amount of material used, and spread rate comparison between 1st coat and 2nd coat and more. All of these things are affected whether a paint or primer is used. It's no coincidence all of those things also affect man-hours, production, material usage and profits.

Lets look at why Promar 200 Zero Voc doesn't work. 

1) it's not designed to equalize porosity
2) it's not tested to equalize porosity

I'm sure there is use for Promar 200 primer but I have not set out to figure out what it is at this time. But let's look at the more technical reasons it doesn't work. Had Scott actually tested 200 Primer vs BEHR, this thread wouldn't exist. A simple test would have exposed Promar's inability to seal which is what I initially pointed out in the BEHR thread, not sure why he decided to challenge it having not tried the comparison. I suspect that is why he decided to leave that portion out.

By the way, that fuzziness seen on Scott's pics, there is a trick to minimizing it. He had a bad case of the fuzzies and that means much more sanding and Promar 200 Primer is not a primer you want to sand very much because it breaks down exceptionally easy and will expose mud if not careful. Flashing of the finish paint will occur if mud is exposed.

Promar 200 Zero Voc Primer is flat and porous. A porous surface will absorb anything applied over it and sheen degradation will occur. When a primer absorbs a finish product it affects all of the things previous mentioned above. The reason BEHR Flat Enamel works exceptionally good is because the first coat "seals" and turns the entire surface into "one solid surface" and does not allow any notable loss in sheen when painting over it. Ultimately this is what you want no matter which sheen of paint is applied for "best" results.




























BEHR (below)



















Side by Side










Then we took the test to the field










BEHR still wet after 30 mins when all other dried within the first few minutes after rolling. (below)











Quick initial observations

BEHR Premium Plus Flat Enamel has 38.2 VOL Solids, Promar 200 Primer has 26. Promar 200 is not mildew resistant, PPFE is. This is very important for new drywall especially in basements, kitchens and baths despite the presence of green board. PPFE dried 20 mins faster. The dry film is superior to Promar 200 which makes sense having more solids. PPFE has a faster recoat by up to 2 hours.

How we did the controlled test

We applied a heavy saturation coat over a sample piece of bare drywall to simulate a coating heavier and more uniform than can be achieved on a wall by spraying and backrolling to eliminate any application discrepancies. This method also allows for anyone to replicate the test easily by removing variables. The controlled portion of this test produces a 'best case' scenario and is not realistic to replicate on the job.

There is an 8 photo limit so I will make a 2nd post.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

This photo was taken 30 mins after application. The far right stripe is BEHR and still shows a trace of wet. (below)










Here is the load (millage) prior to final lay-off (below)










This next photo is most telling. I could apply 4 coats of Promar 200 primer to the wall and it will not produce sealing properties of BEHR.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

You want a primer with a sheen to it? Use sw contractor primer, b28wf162. One-third the price of behr.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Its not just Bher. The new paint is awesome. 

I haven't really used Bher, but the other ones I've used are awesome. Regal select, Aura, Ultra, Super Paint,Emerald, would all perform similarity.

Primer is great... It primes, but I think we all can feel the difference in applying over a primers like 123 that almost has a sheen, and a drywall primer that feels like it sucks the paint out of your brush.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Part of the reason we like 6-2 primer. We had to paint a basement the builder primed with a PVA primer. Being unused to painting over very porous primers, my employee kind of blew that job (that and the worst lighting of any project we have ever worked on period and not enough outlets to run tools and halogens).


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Finally.........a good thread!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I wish I had so much time.:notworthy:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Woodland said:


> Finally.........a good thread!


 
debatable:whistling2:


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Ill bite.

Jack, Thank you for explaining why the lower VOC's result with a higher solids count with all paints. This has been explained. 

I'm going to remind my uncles, aunts and other family members who may or may not live in your area of operation that I agree with their decision not to hire you to handle their painting projects.

I do value your opinion, I just don't think that you're a good fit for my family.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

*Why is this thread comparing a finish coat with a primer?*

From what I understand, the Promar 200 Primer is designed to be applied directly over new gypsum drywall. The BEHR Interior Flat Enamel is not, and in fact, requires a primer [No.73 drywall primer sealer] according to the BEHR data sheet.

After reading some of the components of Promar 200 Primer, I found that it contains Calcium Carbonate, which apparently is compatible with the high Alkali Calcium Sulfate found in gypsum and joint compound as I understand it. [Please correct me if I'm wrong]
I did not find Calcium Carbonate in BEHR's MSDS, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Bottom line is, we're comparing apples to oranges. Aren't we? 

Painters circumvent specifications all the time in the interest of production. But, if a product is designed for a specific reason to gain maximum performance, why not proceed with that particular system to ensure it's performance. Just because a product with an acrylic resin and a high %SBV content, not designed for bare drywall btw, may appear to seal better then those designed for such a purpose, doesn't mean it's right. 

And would you have any recourse should a failure occur?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I must be hovering around a carcass that's been beat to death. 

Never mind.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I have to give JP an A+ for trying so GD hard.

WTG JP:thumbsup:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I must be hovering around a carcass that's been beat to death.
> 
> Never mind.


I don't think so. There are those of us with differing more traditional methods we think are better. Sealing mud on the first coat or primer coat isn't that much of a priority. If it were we would prime with something like guardz or another sealer. 

The entire paint system should be compared, not what one or two coats do as far as absorption. The final finished wall appearance is paramount to me, and you can't get a high build primer coat sanded out smooth followed by two top coats with two coats of finish paint. 

The texture will not be the same or in my case the desired finish. A fair comparison would be to use both systems across several bases, sheens, and desired final results.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Why is this thread comparing a finish coat with a primer?
> 
> From what I understand, the Promar 200 Primer is designed to be applied directly over new gypsum drywall. The BEHR Interior Flat Enamel is not, and in fact, requires a primer [No.73 drywall primer sealer] according to the BEHR data sheet.
> 
> ...



I was looking at this the other day. From what I can tell the newer Behr has been reformulated to go directly on new drywall. Just like Regal, Aura, Super Paint, and all the rest. 

http://www.behrpro.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/Int_ULTRA_R0411.pdf

Bher PP interior flat enamel #1750

http://www.behrpro.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/1850_21850.pdf

Behr int flat enamel # 1850


The #1750 is the newer stuff.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I also failed to mention that the addition of Calcium Carbonate to the primer not only acts as an extender, but also helps to ensure the lowest of matte finishes if that's the desired effect of the finished product.

If I wanted a higher sheen, I probably wouldn't use Promar 200 Primer


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I mostly don't understand why JP cares so much. If it works for him..great. I don't care what anyone here uses if it makes them happy.

If I had any painting secret weapons, I'd probably just keep them to myself, and let the rest of you muddle through your days miserable.

thanks for being a nice guy, JP


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I was looking at this the other day. From what I can tell the newer Behr has been reformulated to go directly on new drywall. Just like Regal, Aura, Super Paint, and all the rest.
> 
> http://www.behrpro.com/cma/BehrPro/Marketing/Products/TDS/Int_ULTRA_R0411.pdf
> 
> ...


I believe JP demonstrated the BEHR Flat Interior Enamel #1850, not the #1750.

We would be having another conversation if that was the case.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I believe JP demonstrated the BEHR Flat Interior Enamel #1850, not the #1750.
> 
> We would be having another conversation if that was the case.



Wow,yea. Looks like it from the pic. I think the #1750 says 'ultra' on the label. 

If that's in fact the case, then the last test makes no sense at all. With a dozen or more self priming acrylics on the market, why pick one that's not to test the theory. Whether it works or not is kinda irrelevant if the system is not approved by manufacturer. 

Maybe JP will come back and explain. ... Somehow I doubt it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes I read and posted the specs earlier in this thread I think. 1750 stated a minimum of two coats for an approved system. 1850 still required the use of a primer.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Complete with fantasy storytelling and unusual characters...

You try moving that fast all the time, carting around all those cans of paint, painting stripes all over the place, and then going home and doing drawdowns on your kitchen table at night. You'd mix up a fact or two once in a while too.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Are all of these tests' done for us? Or is there somebody out there who actually cares?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

wje said:


> Are all of these tests' done for us? Or is there somebody out there who actually cares?



I care, about the issue anyway. 
There has been a huge change in paint over the past several years. Even the pigments are changing. 

The issue is often phrased in terms of 'box store'paint&primer (Behr) V/S 'real' paint from the paint store. But that's missing the point. All the big manufactures are now saying there new/reformulated lines do not require, and in fact perform better, without primer on simple substrates like drywall. 

The main difference is HD shouts 'paint&primerN1' from the rooftop, and SW and BM just kinda mumble it... Metaphorically speaking. 

So the real question to me is; do these new systems perform as well, or better, than traditional systems?

However, this most recent test doesn't really address that question. Unless we're wrong about the product used. 

These major changes in recommended systems, and the different properties of newer materials, is important to me, ......


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Complete with fantasy storytelling and unusual characters...
> 
> You try moving that fast all the time, carting around all those cans of paint, painting stripes all over the place, and then going home and doing drawdowns on your kitchen table at night. You'd mix up a fact or two once in a while too.


If Brian is indeed Jack Pauhl, I can't imagine a man of his stature would be doing draw downs in his kitchen, with probably a rolling pin no less. He must have people.


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## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

Very helpful up until you had to use GD in your thread. Carry on anyhow.


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