# Time and Material



## NuView Painting

Can any of you guys that may do Time and Material on some jobs, do a lil run down on how you do it... im trying to configure my own.. for a upcoming bid thats gonna want this...and I never did it before..dont want to go empty handed with out anything at all..thanks


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## ProWallGuy

What are you trying to configure? Your hourly rate?
If so, click here.


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## Rich

You work. Keep track of hours. Multiply that by your hourly rate. Add supplies (with a markup). 

I'm not so sure what you're looking for:

(ex.)

John Doe's job:
10 hours X $45 per hour= $450
$80 in supplies (plus markup) = $100

$450
$100
$550 total for the job


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## NuView Painting

lol.. how much do you normally mark up your material ..whats a good rule of thumb


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## slickshift

Do you mean you are going to bid a job saying:
I'll charge $53 an hour and 40% (markup) on materials?
?


That's really no way to "bid"

Then any dork can say I'll bid it at $20 an hour and discount materials by 5%
They'll look like a hero
Get the "bid"
Then dog the hours by 200%, and buy extra materials and sundries (twice what's needed) and make more money
Just like a govt contract

Add ons or odd little stuff I'll say T&M, but that's for little stuff like I don't know, replacing some roof shingles while I'm up there...fixing trim on a dormer I can't really see 'till I'm up here so can't really give a price....

If you mean a breakdown of T&M on the bid...no thanks
I won't do that
It's usually a red flag for a nickel and dime to death client


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## NuView Painting

Ive worked by the hour with GC handle the material
Ive worked Bid where the GC handles material
Ive worked Bid where Ive handled the material
but I never worked by the hour and handled material how should I work this, do i give them a bill for my time and material together each week..this is crazy to me..I guess thats why its hard to explain... im gonna get my by the hour money ...but do i bill them each week when I turn my time in for material..and mark it up 35-40%?


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## Rich

NuView Painting said:


> lol.. how much do you normally mark up your material ..whats a good rule of thumb


whatever you need to survive
I've seen guys do 10%, and I've seen guys do 60%

BTW...I NEVER break down T&M jobs for customers, I bill them. They usually know my hours to a degree, but that's it. They know I am buying materials, but it's not like I'm handing over receipts or anything. It's not for them to know, therefore they don't.


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## timhag

I do 40% mark up on material. Depending on the job, i will charge anywhere from $15 to $20 per hour per man. I'll pay my guys depending on experience, $8 to $12 per hour. When doing time and material i use time cards for each guy and keep receipts. Bigger jobs i'll turn in time and material in 1/3's. Smaller jobs turn in time and material in the end. Turn in T&M together. Two of my current jobs are time amd material.


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## NuView Painting

thanks... just wanted to know how some of you was doing it before i t get involved ...that will work


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## ProWallGuy

timhag said:


> Depending on the job, i will charge anywhere from $15 to $20 per hour per man.


How do you cover overhead and expenses (let alone make a profit) off that?


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## slickshift

timhag said:


> Depending on the job, i will charge anywhere from $15 to $20 per hour per man. I'll pay my guys depending on experience, $8 to $12 per hour....



Wow, Tim
That doesn't add up
I think you are underestimating your actual costs per man hour


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## Rich

Most guys, including myself (at least here) charge the same for every man, regardless of experience.


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## timhag

Prowallguy and slickshift, i'll give you an example-finished a job today with the bill totaling $2340.00. Charged $20.00 per hour per guy with two guys on the job, thats a total of $40.00 per hour for the job. They put in 48 hours each totaling 96 man hours. My material totaled $300.00 X 40% mark up. I paid one man $11.00 per hour and the other $8.00. $912.00 was paid for labor, I made a profit of $1128.00. Does thats seem like a fair profit? If not, please tell me what i'm doing wrong.
Thanks, Tim


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## timhag

Rich, i charge according to customer and pay each man their hourly rate for every job. Some people don't want to pay $20.00 an hour per man, so i'll rework the numbers and come up with something that works for everybody.

Tim


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## Rich

timhag said:


> Rich, i charge according to customer and pay each man their hourly rate for every job. Some people don't want to pay $20.00 an hour per man, so i'll rework the numbers and come up with something that works for everybody.Tim


Tim, I'm no expert at all...so I can't really say much. If you are able to pay bills AND have plenty of profit to enjoy your business, great! I have found that even charging $40 per hour, I can't seem to make it work. I guess that really comes down to how much I'm working and how I'm arranging payments. I'm suprised that someone is willing to take $8.00/hr. Beginners up here start at about $12. I guess because CT has a minimum wage of $7.65, it changes things a bit. 

you know what they say..."if it ain't broke, don't fix it" :no:


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## timhag

Rich, I have one guy making $8 dollars an hour, one at $11 and 2 at $12 dollars. Had another 2 other guys at $8 and another making $12<--- these guys i just fired. I normally have 2 or 3 projects going at once. I feel i am making a good living and want to keep building. I go through sooo many guys that i start them off at $8 per hour. If they have some skills and stick around i have no problem increasing their pay. Every one of these guys have no problem starting at $8 per hour. Its hard finding good help.:wallbash: 
Tim


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## slickshift

timhag said:


> ...I made a profit of $1128.00. Does thats seem like a fair profit? If not, please tell me what i'm doing wrong...


But that's not your profit
Not unless you have $0 overhead, operating expenses, taxes, wc, enemp. ins...etc...

Listen if you can do it charging $20 an hour hey don't let my big mouth stop you...lol


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## timhag

Slickshift, my prices are competitive with others in the area i have no other choice but to keep my prices where they are. Example, did a follow up on potential customer. She told me i was $250.00 higher than another bid she obtained. She said if a would take the cut she would give me the job and show me the other bid. This is just one of many examples on the bidding battlefield. Whats a brother to do? :confused1: 

Tim


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## NuView Painting

timhag said:


> Slickshift, my prices are competitive with others in the area i have no other choice but to keep my prices where they are. Example, did a follow up on potential customer. She told me i was $250.00 higher than another bid she obtained. She said if a would take the cut she would give me the job and show me the other bid. This is just one of many examples on the bidding battlefield. Whats a brother to do? :confused1:
> 
> Tim


I fell you on that one Tim, the bidding battle field is a harsh one around here to...Im barely staying alive right now...with all the guys that will work by the hour around here my bids to them are way high...but its whats fair in this area.. have to be low bare an grin it.. or find another profession


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## ProWallGuy

timhag said:


> I made a profit of $1128.00.


That is not profit. You have to pay taxes and your overhead and yourself out of that. What is left over _after that_ is profit.


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## Ken S.

Absolutely! Overhead recoup is where most of us fall short, by not allocating for all true expenses that should be charged to each job.


Maybe look at : www.yourcostcenter.com


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## premierpainter

TimHag
go to www.yourcostcenter.com it will be the best $$ that you could ever spend. You are a little confused when it comes to o/p...as are most guys here. I was happy to find out that my costs per hour were less than I thought they were. Buy the download it will save you a ton of Money in the long run


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## NuView Painting

so what happens when you go to your cost center.com you do what they say raise your wages ...then make it affective in the field ..then you stop getting calls cause your way to high... right now..believe me when i say im a high end painter i am.. I do alot of custom houses for a big time GC. but he will do anything to have a crew work by the hour...an the guys do it...hes paying them $20 an hour and they have to have their own W/C an INS so you can say they make bout $14 an hour or less..after overhead ye it sad but I have to take what i know and what i've learned here, and what street knowledge I have to pimp these customers into getting work..you can say this is what i charge and this is what it is...i never take a lost but sometimes i dont make a profit..just so i can put food on the table..but thats the way it is here in Louisiana.. we have nothing here our industries consist of chemical plants and ship building and offshore drilling.. and if you aint somebodies brother-n-law you aint working...and thats real.. So all I can say bout it is make a profit on the people you know you can, get the work from the people you know you can.. and steal the work from the people you know you can...cause its a dog eat dog...and im not getting bit


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## Rich

NuView Painting said:


> so what happens when you go to your cost center.com you do what they say raise your wages ...then make it affective in the field ..then you stop getting calls cause your way to high... right now..believe me when i say im a high end painter i am.. I do alot of custom houses for a big time GC. but he will do anything to have a crew work by the hour...an the guys do it...hes paying them $20 an hour and they have to have their own W/C an INS so you can say they make bout $14 an hour or less..after overhead ye it sad but I have to take what i know and what i've learned here, and what street knowledge I have to pimp these customers into getting work..you can say this is what i charge and this is what it is...i never take a lost but sometimes i dont make a profit..just so i can put food on the table..but thats the way it is here in Louisiana.. we have nothing here our industries consist of chemical plants and ship building and offshore drilling.. and if you aint somebodies brother-n-law you aint working...and thats real.. So all I can say bout it is make a profit on the people you know you can, get the work from the people you know you can.. and steal the work from the people you know you can...cause its a dog eat dog...and im not getting bit


dang man...if this is how it was up here, I'd be hittin' the road a long time ago

don't you get stressed out? how long will it go on where you working to simply put food on the table? don't you want more than that?


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## electro

Nuview,
The purpose of Yourcostcenter is not based on raising your pricing, rather finding out what it really costs you to run your operation. Then, you can make educated decisions on where you can cut costs, what you as the owner can realistically expect to make given your companies size. Sometimes the truth hurts, other times it can set you free. 

Electro


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## timhag

Hey guys, sorry for all the confusion i created. After deducting liability, health, tax, dues, and so on. I made a profit of $636.11 on a $2340.00 job. I knew all about the deducts when i originally posted, just wasn't thinking.

Tim


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## plainpainter

Tim, up here in Mass - Mexicans make better money under the table! Hopefully that's over the table money you are paying - otherwise, it will be considered 'profit' as well on the books, of which you will have to pay taxes - and further reducing your profits. No offense - but you ain't making any money. Even if you were making $636.11 off of two guys for a weeks work. Summer exterior work is only about 7 months. At best your guys would bring into the company 19 grand - and that money would get blown on equipment, trucks, truck repairs. Not to mention at your prices - even if you decided to work on the jobs - you couldn't charge the customer more of a salary than $12/hr - you as the owner have to live on the 'profits' and it doesn't look like you make better than 40-50 grand for having multiple crews - which is absolutely ridiculous.


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## timhag

plainpainter, i pulled in 52 grand last year and will be above that this year...THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING I AM MISSING OR NOT TELLING. As of October i am well over 100 grand gross still running 2 jobs with another starting tomorrow. No offense- I am making making money and have the books to show that i am. WHAT AM I MISSING?
Tim


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## NuView Painting

timhag said:


> plainpainter, i pulled in 52 grand last year and will be above that this year...THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING I AM MISSING OR NOT TELLING. As of October i am well over 100 grand gross still running 2 jobs with another starting tomorrow. No offense- I am making making money and have the books to show that i am. WHAT AM I MISSING?
> Tim


your missing that in reality their "THE OTHER PAINTERS HERE" not that far off from us at all... I pulled in 57 grand this year.. with the help of part timers.. no i know thats not alot ..obviously thats why where here to see what we can do to help us grown our business and make it better....you have to remember the they might be pulling in 150 -200 grand but they also have 15-20 people they employ so their not that far from our salaries..considering the economy in their area..what some of these people here i guess dont understand if we charge high...we dont get work...oh by the way if any of your painting contractors are hiring let me know...i'll come work by the hour for you for what they are paying top hands in your area and grind you so hard that you will have to let me go cause you wont have enuff work to keep me busy!!!


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## timhag

NuView Painting- 57 grand to me, seems to be pretty good. I am very content on what i make and what i am doing to thrive, not survive. I will continue to keep doing what i am doing and maybe one day i will have 15 to 20 guys working for me. Maybe one day i will make that 150-200 grand. If not,,,,It is what it is. I know that my schedule will keep me working well into the summer and from that, i will continue to grow and thrive. I am competitive in the bidding battlefield in my area and will continue to be competitive. Thanks Tim


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## ProWallGuy

Timhag, or NuView, do either of you guys have a Home Depot in the area that sells installation services, such as roofing, kitchen remodels, doors/windows, etc?


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## timhag

ProWallGuy, yes there are several in the area why?


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## Wolverine

I kind of have a problem when I hear people complain about how 'bad' it is in their area. Do people really think that things work that much differently in other parts of the country? 

We sell our paint worldwide. Whether you are selling in Slovakia, Portugal, North Carolina, Louisiana, Maine, Canada, or California, it's all about people selling to people. No one has it any worse than anyone else. There are 'brothers in law' , 'uncles' , and 'friend's rooster's uncles nephews brother' in every state and country. 

So, if you're feeling that way... just pull up your pants, quit feeling sorry for yourself, and get to work. We're businessmen here! We don't have easy jobs and that is why everyone in the world is not doing what we do. If we wanted an easier life, we'd be workin' for a paycheck instead of building a future!


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## timhag

No complaints here.


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## NuView Painting

Wolverine said:


> I kind of have a problem when I hear people complain about how 'bad' it is in their area. Do people really think that things work that much differently in other parts of the country?
> 
> We sell our paint worldwide. Whether you are selling in Slovakia, Portugal, North Carolina, Louisiana, Maine, Canada, or California, it's all about people selling to people. No one has it any worse than anyone else. There are 'brothers in law' , 'uncles' , and 'friend's rooster's uncles nephews brother' in every state and country.
> 
> So, if you're feeling that way... just pull up your pants, quit feeling sorry for yourself, and get to work. We're businessmen here! We don't have easy jobs and that is why everyone in the world is not doing what we do. If we wanted an easier life, we'd be workin' for a paycheck instead of building a future!


you right I apologize ...for the dumb  I said just gets depressing sometimes but it always seems to work its way out some how. sorry peeps,, but thanks for the fed back


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## timhag

NuView- Your still  in my books.


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## Tmrrptr

Although I agree with the pep talk by the Dude, I must disagree, insofar as "no one has it any worse than anyone else."
Although there may be a tax or fee at every turn, we, here in the estados unidos have far greater opportunity than any place I am aware of.
As independent businessmen, it serves no purpose to complain.
Far better to seek alternatives, both in application of skills, and, the venue where those efforts may be applied.
r


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## ProWallGuy

timhag said:


> ProWallGuy, yes there are several in the area why?


Because, if there is, then you should be able to sell work at much higher $$$ than you seem to think you can. Do people hire the HD guys because of their:

A. quality 
B. price
C. reputation/brand recognition 

The answer here is C. Most customers don't know the industry inside-out like we do, so therefore the have no idea what a good 'quality' job is. Or, better for my point is most averages Joes can't tell the difference between an extremely high-quality job from an OK quality job. If they could, they wouldn't be buying from guys like HD. 
Customers will pay a scale wage price from what they perceive is a legitimate, well-established company. Places like HD, Sears, Best Buy are very successful, even though they have a dismal customer satisfaction rating. But you can be assured that HD is billing out manhours way higher than $20-30 per hour. There are potential clients out there with the money to pay the top rates, you just need to find out how to attract/appeal to those people.

If you could change your presentation to being a "company", as compared to a painting contractor, you could probably sell at a much higher rate than you ever thought you could. I found out years ago, if I quit trying to sell Prowallguy the Paperhanger, and sold Professional Wallpaper & Paint Co., profits went up due to be able to sell at a higher rate. My customers are not buying a paint job, they are buying a 'customer service package'. Just always have to make sure to live up to the standard/image you have created. When you quit selling paint jobs, and start selling the service of being a painter, things happen.


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## timhag

Prowall, thanks for your knowledge, i know what you are saying. We do alot of high end jobs and i'm sure i could have gotten much more for the jobs. All my jobs come to me via word of mouth. I do no advertising except for the sign on my van. You are correct, reputation means the world in this type of business. I will slowly raise my prices.


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## vermontpainter

This is all part of the problem. There are so many people running around pricing jobs that don't know what they are pricing or how. Its important to build a reputation where you are not selling on price, but rather value. Some people drive Ford Escorts and some people prefer Mercedes. Sell a Mercedes paint job and do the work.


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## NEPS.US

timhag said:


> Prowallguy and slickshift, i'll give you an example-finished a job today with the bill totaling $2340.00. Charged $20.00 per hour per guy with two guys on the job, thats a total of $40.00 per hour for the job. They put in 48 hours each totaling 96 man hours. My material totaled $300.00 X 40% mark up. I paid one man $11.00 per hour and the other $8.00. $912.00 was paid for labor, I made a profit of $1128.00. Does thats seem like a fair profit? If not, please tell me what i'm doing wrong.
> Thanks, Tim


do you pay taxes or have comp? have any overhead? .. It's great that you have such low hourly rates and that might reflect the area you are working in ...but T/M has to start at least $35.00 per hour depending on the work...can go up to $100.00 .. if its prevailing wage type..... Plus your a Steeler Fan too...sorry


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## timhag

NEPS.US said:


> do you pay taxes or have comp?


 Absolutely



NEPS.US said:


> have any overhead? ..


Don't we all???



NEPS.US said:


> Plus your a Steeler Fan too...sorry


No,,,,Sorry for you

My brother, i have mended my ways since Nov,,, you are a little too late on your reply. Could have used your advice back then. Thanks for looking out though.


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## beemerpaint

Wow, here in Washington I am paying my guys $15/hr. starting and the other contractors do the same. Thats almost double your $8/hr. Tim. Can you send a couple of those guys to Seattle and well split the difference? :icon_lol:


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## timhag

beemerpaint said:


> Wow, here in Washington I am paying my guys $15/hr. starting and the other contractors do the same. Thats almost double your $8/hr. Tim. Can you send a couple of those guys to Seattle and well split the difference? :icon_lol:


Dude, will ya take a look at the post above yours. Brother, i have mended my ways. May wanna read the complete thread b 4 responding.


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## timhag

beemerpaint said:


> Can you send a couple of those guys to Seattle and well split the difference? :icon_lol:


You can have them if ya want. They were only worth the $8 that i was paying them. They have been long gone.


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## cullybear

I agree sorry tim but I cant see where you are making money unless it straight cash from customer to you to employee


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## timhag

cullybear said:


> I agree sorry tim but I cant see where you are making money unless it straight cash from customer to you to employee


Here is another who didn't read the complete thread.


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## vermontpainter

timhag said:


> Here is another who didn't read the complete thread.


It's like buying milk, always check the dates.


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## NEPS.US

cullybear said:


> I agree sorry tim but I cant see where you are making money unless it straight cash from customer to you to employee


 
Me too Tim ....with a face like that how do yoe even land a job??


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## cullybear

I would much rather bid a job. When I tell a customer I charge $48 per hour they scoff and want a bid. THen 9 times out of ten I will bid lets say $1000 for the time it will take and it will take 12 hours. I like to do jobs by contract that way you have no homeowner looking over your or your employees shoulders and complaining about a long lunch break. Plus I like to do jobs efficiently so we can move on. T and M is comforting but doing it too much wont build your business. You need that big hitter every now and then that really pays the bills.


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## NEPS.US

cullybear said:


> I would much rather bid a job. When I tell a customer I charge $48 per hour they scoff and want a bid. THen 9 times out of ten I will bid lets say $1000 for the time it will take and it will take 12 hours. I like to do jobs by contract that way you have no homeowner looking over your or your employees shoulders and complaining about a long lunch break. Plus I like to do jobs efficiently so we can move on. T and M is comforting but doing it too much wont build your business. You need that big hitter every now and then that really pays the bills.


Tim .... I hope your paying attention!


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## timhag

cullybear said:


> I would much rather bid a job. When I tell a customer I charge $48 per hour they scoff and want a bid. THen 9 times out of ten I will bid lets say $1000 for the time it will take and it will take 12 hours. I like to do jobs by contract that way you have no homeowner looking over your or your employees shoulders and complaining about a long lunch break. Plus I like to do jobs efficiently so we can move on. T and M is comforting but doing it too much wont build your business. You need that big hitter every now and then that really pays the bills.


....


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## JNLP

What I want to know is... Who you paying $12 & why am I only making $8 when I'm your right hand man.


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## NEPS.US

JMCP said:


> What I want to know is... Who you paying $12 & why am I only making $8 when I'm your right hand man.


.......because Pee-Wee is taking you on a love fest to Key West .... thats called a "Perk"


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## timhag

JMCP said:


> What I want to know is... Who you paying $12 & why am I only making $8 when I'm your right hand man.


Keep that sh*t up and I'll pay you $5.75 an hour.


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## timhag

NEPS.US said:


> .......because Pee-Wee is taking you on a love fest to Key West .... thats called a "Perk"


....


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## JNLP

timhag said:


> Keep that sh*t up and I'll pay you $5.75 an hour.


I'll remember that when you're working for ME. :w00t:


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## timhag

JMCP said:


> I'll remember that when you're working for ME. :w00t:


Can't wait to see when THAT will happen.:no:


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