# Exterior oil based trim paint.



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We have a customer asking to paint their trim with oil based trim paint. Who still makes one? I haven't had a chance to call our BM store yet.

The home is facing the ocean but not right on the water per say. It's in a basin. Salt water coming and going with the tides and pretty windy.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> We have a customer asking to paint their trim with oil based trim paint. Who still makes one? I haven't had a chance to call our BM store yet.
> 
> The home is facing the ocean but not right on the water per say. It's in a basin. Salt water coming and going with the tides and pretty windy.


 
why?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> We have a customer asking to paint their trim with oil based trim paint. Who still makes one? I haven't had a chance to call our BM store yet.
> 
> The home is facing the ocean but not right on the water per say. It's in a basin. Salt water coming and going with the tides and pretty windy.


If they insist on an alkyd try and talk to them about an emulsion. All the benefits of an alkyd, in an acrylic base

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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

chrisn said:


> why?


The husband who we didn't meet told his wife to ask. I know Oil impervo is expensive and figure exterior would be as well. He is old school thought on paint. Oil is better.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

All,them stores still got oil. It has to now be called out 'industrial' and may have some kinda wording that says it is for steel. Same stuff it used to be.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Here in the humid South, oil based exterior paint will start growing mildew almost before the check clears. Don't know about its availability. I think the BM dealer here quit carrying it.

I can't think of a single valid reason to use it on a house.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I can still get SWP from Sherwin-Williams. Most SW stores no longer carry it so it may be hard to find in your area. It's old school oil base but my faith in its longevity is very weak. It does dry to the classic, rock hard, oil finish lots of people like. Just don't expect more than 2 or 3 years without peeling.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Oil base will not peel in 2-3 yrs if the job is done right like any other job. Yes it lose its color retention and chalk up down the road. I would inform the customer it's 2014 and oils are not what they once were. If they insist you can get it from SW or BM easy enough.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Gymschu said:


> I can still get SWP from Sherwin-Williams. Most SW stores no longer carry it so it may be hard to find in your area. It's old school oil base but my faith in its longevity is very weak. It does dry to the classic, rock hard, oil finish lots of people like. Just don't expect more than 2 or 3 years without peeling.





thinkpainting/nick said:


> Oil base will not peel in 2-3 yrs if the job is done right like any other job. Yes it lose its color retention and chalk up down the road. I would inform the customer it's 2014 and oils are not what they once were. If they insist you can get it from SW or BM easy enough.


I agree with Nick here about how long it will last for.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I have had many older clients ask for oil. I tell them about how the government made the paint companies remove all the good stuff, and that they are not as good as the acrylic paints. Usually they shrug and it turns into a how things blow nowadays conversation....:jester:

Buuuut, if they want to pay for "industrial" coating, sure I'll do it. Has not happened yet. Especially when they hear about $75 a gallon prices.


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## Phinnster (Feb 20, 2013)

Wouldn't do it
To brittle and no movement like water based
Fine paints has one


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Here is what you do. Tell the wife to tell the husband that oil based paint is the absolute last thing you would want to use outside. The reason you know this is that you are a professional painting contractor that has been in business X amount of years and that you keep yourself educated on the best coatings to use on different surfaces. Sometimes you can actually have a debate about is oil better than latex, but for exterior work, there is no debate. Oil based paint is the clear loser. If you apply it outside you are doing a disservice to your customer. This information can be easily confirmed by doing a quick google search on the topic. Tell your potential customers to Google it!


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## Huntercoatings (Aug 16, 2013)

Agreed, alkyd paints dry much too hard for exterior use. Especially on wood. Don't get me wrong I love the look and feel of a quality alkyd enamel, but it's not for every surface. I'd do like others have said give them your honest professional opinion that a top %100 acrylic exterior paint will last much longer. There are some customers that are old school and stuck in their ways so if all else fails just do solid prep and paint with an alkyd. They're getting really hard to find for ext. use but I noticed at Lowes valspar 4000 alkyd enamel is int/ ext and pretty cheap.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Sometimes the customer is wrong and this time they are. I would politely refuse and if they insist pass on the doing the job.
When its f'd up in a year they will be blaming you


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> Sometimes the customer is wrong and this time they are. I would politely refuse and if they insist pass on the doing the job.
> When its f'd up in a year they will be blaming you


Lol. Ain't it so.:yes:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I have feeling we wont get this one. But who knows. I submitted the estimate talked to them about not using oil. We will see. They need it done by July 1st so we would have to squeeze them in. This is one job that doesn't matter to me if we get it or not. Usually I don't feel this way.

As we all know every one wants it done now.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> I have feeling we wont get this one. But who knows. I submitted the estimate talked to them about not using oil. We will see. They need it done by July 1st so we would have to squeeze them in. This is one job that doesn't matter to me if we get it or not. Usually I don't feel this way.
> 
> As we all know every one wants it done now.


It's a lovely feeling, is it not?:thumbsup:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> It's a lovely feeling, is it not?:thumbsup:


Yeah some times it is.


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

OK, so normally I wouldn't nit-pick this much, but we're really kinda talking about 2 and a half distinctly different products here. And the comments most have made have been accurate about the specific disadvantages of those distinct products they're talking about.

For example - this old-school dude asks about using an oil…and y'all immediately go into the disadvantages of using alkyds. Alkyds, like oils, and like acrylics, all have their own distinct advantages and, equally opposite, disadvantages. Alkyds dry too hard, will turn brittle, peel within a couple years, will chalk and harbor mildew…and that's all true, sorta. 

Oils on the other hand - not so much. Oils don't dry very hard at all (relatively speaking), and they won't really turn brittle…they will chalk, oh boy will they chalk - and provide a plentiful food source for mildew. But with the free-chalking thing going on, oils (not alkyds) are really kind of a self cleaning exterior finish - so mildew may, or may not, be all that much of a problem. Oils won't peel, and they will help with wood rehydration - but they do require more frequent "maintenance" re-coating moreso than any other type of exterior finish we've discussed so far.

Somebody mentioned "enamel" earlier - bad choice for exterior trim (unless we're talking about steel or other non-expanding surfaces. The terms "enamel", "alkyd" and "oil" are not synonymous terms. Not all alkyds are enamels and no oil or oil/alkyd exterior trim or house paints are an enamel. 

Truthfully, I don't know of one American paint manufacturer that still makes oil exterior products (not alkyds…oil)…there are a couple of British companies I know of that make a really nice oil house paint - but you'll pay dearly to get it here in the U.S. - and it's only available in a couple of colors. Read up on some of these products and you'll see that in odd instances, oils still have a place in the house paint arena.

Having said all that, I'd still try my best to steer this guy towards an acrylic system…I just thought I'd throw all that stuff about oils in just to keep the conversation going.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Out in Vancouver, I heard a guy who worked for the BM paint shop say this and it's never more true than now and in this thread. "If it wasn't for bad decisions we'd all be out of business". Oil paint is done. Just convert. There's no future in it.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Oils and alkyds had there place, amazing for trim, and doors, as of right now I've yet to see another product perform the same way. General paints monamal is okay, but doors way to much when spaying, and is a but of a pain to brush. Renaissance from Cloverdale paints was great, but didn't stuck to any form of metal (like all of the exterior paints they sell), I have yet to use X-pert from PPG on anything other than bare drywall at this point.

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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Ric said:


> Somebody mentioned "enamel" earlier - bad choice for exterior trim (unless we're talking about steel or other non-expanding surfaces. The terms "enamel", "alkyd" and "oil" are not synonymous terms. Not all alkyds are enamels and no oil or oil/alkyd exterior trim or house paints are an enamel.


I think you are confused about what an enamel is. It's a paint that forms a hard shell on top. In other words, it's a washable paint. Washable paints come in oil, latex, acrylic, alkyd, etc. Washable paints are what we use on exterior trim all the time because we want that trim to be washable and resist moisture.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Carl said:


> I think you are confused about what an enamel is. It's a paint that forms a hard shell on top. In other words, it's a washable paint. Washable paints come in oil, latex, acrylic, alkyd, etc. Washable paints are what we use on exterior trim all the time because we want that trim to be washable and resist moisture.


I would be very careful about saying Ric is confused about paint, I hope you now get a dissertation about enamel that we all can learn from:laughing:


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## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

We are in Mass, and in my 27 years, we have had various oil houses, just not in a very long time. Two or three stick out in my head, and it's because we did them several times each. Every return visit, which was about every four years, we found the house to be buried in mildew, cracked and peeling, and having a blotchy sheen...in.other words, the stuff sucked at longevity and quickly turned to crap. It's also annoying that any bug who lands on an oil house got stuck, and in one case, we came back to a freshly painted wall and it had hundreds of dead bugs stuck on it...we tried to wipe them off, but it left the wall coated in bug legs. It was awful...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintPerfect said:


> We are in Mass, and in my 27 years, we have had various oil houses, just not in a very long time. Two or three stick out in my head, and it's because we did them several times each. Every return visit, which was about every four years, we found the house to be buried in mildew, cracked and peeling, and having a blotchy sheen...in.other words, the stuff sucked at longevity and quickly turned to crap. It's also annoying that any bug who lands on an oil house got stuck, and in one case, we came back to a freshly painted wall and it had hundreds of dead bugs stuck on it...we tried to wipe them off, but it left the wall coated in bug legs. It was awful...


The worst combination: fresh oil on exterior trim and cottonwoods....


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Kinda over thinkin the oil/alkyd deal. Either 1 is dead for residential exterior and I barely touch the stuff interior
Although exterior metals,yes


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

Carl said:


> I think you are confused about what an enamel is. It's a paint that forms a hard shell on top. In other words, it's a washable paint. Washable paints come in oil, latex, acrylic, alkyd, etc. Washable paints are what we use on exterior trim all the time because we want that trim to be washable and resist moisture.


Hiya Carl…

I gotta admit, I am confused about a lotta things, but not about what an enamel is - or isn't…and don't take my comment out of context. Enamels are NOT the best thing to use as exterior trim on a house - that's not the same as saying they can't be used. We're kinda talking about best recommendations here. Enamels are not just defined as "a product that forms a hard shell on top" - but if we were to use that definition, does that suggest that, within the same paint film, there is a softer, more resilient side? That doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

Enamels (as they relate to paint) are more accurately defined as an impermeable, rigid, unforgiving coating designed for maximum abrasion and impact resistance. These coatings are not designed for much degree of malleability - which is why they're not the best recommendation for exterior trim on a house...The fact that they happen to be a "washable" finish is more a testament to the surface's impermeability than as a designed primary benefit.

Paint manufacturers - especially architectural paint manufacturers - have a tendency to use terms…um…loosely - Especially when touting the features, advantages and benefits of their new wonder products that are capable of doing all things formerly considered impossible (hear that, sherwin?). 

My point from my first post is between alkyd house paints, oil house paints and oil/alkyd enamels - the latter would be my least favorite recommendation. Just saying'...


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

What would you like us to put on the trim then? Flat paint?


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

Carl said:


> What would you like us to put on the trim then? Flat paint?


That's up to you, Carl, you're the painter...but just 'cause a paint has a sheen doesn't make it an enamel. You want to put a Satin or Semi-Gloss Acrylic House Paint on your trim? Go for it…it'll work fine (and in most cases it's gonna be the best recommendation). You want to put an Alkyd Gloss House Paint on your trim? Fine by me…For that matter, if you want to use Flat (or Low Luster) Latex (Acrylic) House Paint, it'll still shed water and have a degree of washability. 

Here's the thing, I'm listening in on a conversation of painters discussing various finishes and their unique advantages and disadvantages. Some comments are spot on…others not so much. I decided to throw in a perspective no one else has discussed yet for no other reason than to keep the discussion going. I like to hear people's reasoning for doing things the way they do - sometimes I like to challenge 'em for their reasoning - but even if we disagree, if you got a system that works for you, and you're making money at it, and still doing your customers a service that's good for them…who really cares if we agree? In my opinion, it's the discussion, leading to a better understanding of specific coatings and their unique and peculiar behaviors, that is the real benefit here.


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

Have you considered using Nextech? You get the cleanup of latex and they get the "good ole oil stuff", its int/ext satin and semi. Or Everlife 221 for high gloss.
As to the previous posts about labeling. They can get around the laws by putting "for metal only" somewhere on the label for some coatings. 

Notice the third bullet point in the link.
http://www.californiapaints.com/Find-a-Product/Interior-Products/Interior-Products--Alkyd/FresCoat-Alkyd.aspx


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Stonehampaintdept said:


> Have you considered using Nextech? You get the cleanup of latex and they get the "good ole oil stuff", its int/ext satin and semi. Or Everlife 221 for high gloss.
> As to the previous posts about labeling. They can get around the laws by putting "for metal only" somewhere on the label for some coatings.
> 
> Notice the third bullet point in the link.
> http://www.californiapaints.com/Fin.../Interior-Products--Alkyd/FresCoat-Alkyd.aspx


Emulsions are good, but they still have a long way to go before they fully replace alkyds.

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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Ric said:


> Hiya Carl…
> 
> I gotta admit, I am confused about a lotta things, but not about what an enamel is - or isn't…and don't take my comment out of context. Enamels are NOT the best thing to use as exterior trim on a house - that's not the same as saying they can't be used. We're kinda talking about best recommendations here. Enamels are not just defined as "a product that forms a hard shell on top" - but if we were to use that definition, does that suggest that, within the same paint film, there is a softer, more resilient side? That doesn't make a whole lotta sense.
> 
> ...


 
I have seen longer answers, but not bad


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

chrisn said:


> I have seen longer answers, but not bad


To use a long-abandoned term, "enamel" is a little like "hi-fi" in that it can mean practically anything. While I'm not usually a fan of the open-source model for information, this is a pretty good summary:

The name is something of a misnomer, as in reality, most commercially available enamel paints are significantly softer than either vitreous enamel or stoved synthetic resins, and are totally different in composition; vitreous enamel is applied as a powder or paste and then fired at high temperature. There is no generally accepted definition or standard for use of the term enamel paint, and not all enamel-type paints may use it.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

Okay . . . I'm going to be the one to ask. What _is_ the difference between oil and alkyd? Are we just talking about the difference between water-borne alkyds and solvent-borne ones? Or is there some other distinction of which I am unaware?


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

StepUpBham said:


> Okay . . . I'm going to be the one to ask. What _is_ the difference between oil and alkyd? Are we just talking about the difference between water-borne alkyds and solvent-borne ones? Or is there some other distinction of which I am unaware?


Easiest way I've heard it described is linseed oil as the base (one of the binders) or a synthetic oil (manufactured alkyd) as the base then you add your solids, emulsifiers, ect. to make the coating. 
Typically linseed oils are long cure and alkyd oils can be made quick dry. Some exceptions apply.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

oil exterior is a dinosaur...

no pun intended, yet sorta funny...


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

Stonehampaintdept said:


> Easiest way I've heard it described is linseed oil as the base (one of the binders) or a synthetic oil (manufactured alkyd) as the base then you add your solids, emulsifiers, ect. to make the coating.
> Typically linseed oils are long cure and alkyd oils can be made quick dry. Some exceptions apply.


So if it has linseed in it, it's oil, but if not, it's just alkyd? Good to know; I've been using the terms interchangeably for a long time.


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

StepUpBham said:


> So if it has linseed in it, it's oil, but if not, it's just alkyd? Good to know; I've been using the terms interchangeably for a long time.


Not really….the terms oil and alkyd are often times used interchangeably, but there really is a difference. In today's world most everything is alkyd 'cause of the advantages they have over straight oils (faster dry, more chalk and fade resistant, etc.) - but not too many years ago, your exterior oil based house paints were simply called "house paint" because there weren't really other choices available.

Back then, you could simply make your own exterior house paint my mixing linseed oil, white lead and turpentine together - what you created was a high gloss, hi-hiding, extremely slow drying protective coating that could be used on wood, concrete and metal surfaces. The film would chalk freely (creating the term "self-cleaning") but rarely peeled. Repainting was fairly simple since it didn't require a whole lot of surface prep - the surface was already clean due to the excessive chalking, and an oil product could go directly over chalk without issue - the 3 main problems with oil based paints were (1) dry time, (2) excessive chalking, and (3) areas protected from sun (constant shade) attracted mildew like flies to poop (not to mention that cows and grasshoppers also liked the stuff)…

Alkyds, which has been around for years, are synthetic - man-made - engineered resins that addressed some of those issues that were considered weaknesses with oil based products. Unlike oils, alkyds dried (cured) hard - very hard…so hard, they had to be extended with oils for both flexibility and application purposes. When you hear the term "short-oil" or "long-oil" alkyds, that has to do with how much oils have been used to extend an alkyd resin and you can pretty much determine how flexible (or rigid) an alkyd is based on the amount of oil that's been used. Alkyds became popular with house paints as the American demographic changed…more people were moving from rural homesteads into cities and eventually suburbs. With this shift away from agricultural homesteads came new architectural and design changes with housing - people wanted more color and multiple sidings and building materials on their homes- oil based paints that weren't colorfast and chalked freely were not conducive to these new environments…thus the introduction of alkyds into the arena of house paints…

Now, with all the new VOC regulations and solvent restrictions, alkyd products are becoming less attractive. They're often not as user-friendly as before, and they've certainly become more expensive due to frequently changing formulations and a decreasing demand for product. It's not that the alkyd product doesn't perform as well as it always has, it's just more expensive and, in most cases, acrylics are the better, longer lasting choice.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, that with all the attention given the environment these days - and a sensitivity to our dependency on foreign petroleum products, I see oil products returning to the marketplace. If you noticed back in my 3rd paragraph, to make simple oil based paints required all abundant and natural components…Obviously lead has been replaced (in oil based exterior products, zinc is a better choice than titanium dioxide - which zinc is generally less expensive and in a relatively generous supply), but linseed oil and turpentine are both renewable raw materials (on the other hand, the composition of Acrylics - and alkyds - are largely dependent on petrochemical products and by-products).

Some manufacturers have started making their alkyds more compliant by going back to old formulations that called for a greater presence of linseed oil (or other plant based oils) to augment a product with less amount of alkyd resin.

Having said all that, I don't believe oils will ever replace acrylics - but I also don't think oils are on their way out (as in the dinosaurs). I think there is still a market for oils - there is still a demand for oil products - and oils are capable of solving some issues acrylics are unable to…

Just some things to ponder…

P.S. to Chris - I'm back….


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

StepUpBham said:


> So if it has linseed in it, it's oil, but if not, it's just alkyd? Good to know; I've been using the terms interchangeably for a long time.


Would that it were that simple. Alkyds paints typically have plant oils as well.


This is probably a lot more than you'd want to know:

http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/MNL/PAGES/MNL12187M.htm

There aren't many architectural coatings these days that are true oil paints. Fine Paints of Europe's "Traditional Oil Paints" are alkyds. 

I'm sure there are others, but only ones that I know about are from companies like Allbäck, a Swedish company, and from a handful of other small boutique manufacturers catering to very specialized markets.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Ric said:


> Not really….the terms oil and alkyd are often times used interchangeably, but there really is a difference. In today's world most everything is alkyd 'cause of the advantages they have over straight oils (faster dry, more chalk and fade resistant, etc.) - but not too many years ago, your exterior oil based house paints were simply called "house paint" because there weren't really other choices available.
> 
> Back then, you could simply make your own exterior house paint my mixing linseed oil, white lead and turpentine together - what you created was a high gloss, hi-hiding, extremely slow drying protective coating that could be used on wood, concrete and metal surfaces. The film would chalk freely (creating the term "self-cleaning") but rarely peeled. Repainting was fairly simple since it didn't require a whole lot of surface prep - the surface was already clean due to the excessive chalking, and an oil product could go directly over chalk without issue - the 3 main problems with oil based paints were (1) dry time, (2) excessive chalking, and (3) areas protected from sun (constant shade) attracted mildew like flies to poop (not to mention that cows and grasshoppers also liked the stuff)…
> 
> ...


Yes, that's more like the normal tome


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