# waterborne lacquers



## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Anyone using WB lacquers on a regular basis to paint Kitchen Cabinets,doors or built-ins?

I have a 4 stage HVLP and painted my own kitchen cabinets with a WB lacquer and the finish turned out good,but not a perfect finish...My HVLP gun {bleeder type} has no air control so that may have been part of the problem...They have a valve type connector for the air hose that I may try in the future...Reading how Jack Paul dials in his HVLP,the amount of air is somewhat critical for an excellent finish.

I did my cabinets in a white,satin finish...I thinned it with 5% distilled water....If I was to look critically at the finish you can see faint droplets if you view it on an extreme angle...It gives it a VERY faint textured look.....Straight on view they look damn good...

I sprayed them one side at a time,sanded between the two coats...I layed them on a drying rack over night...The tricky part is to not lay it on too thick with the vertical part of the kitchen cabinets fastened to the walls....When I put it on too thin,the HVLP finish wasn't pretty..Too thick and it ran....

Mine is a 4 stage HVLP with a one gallon pressure pot...Maybe a 7 stage would do a better job or even one of those AAA pumps...

I'm going to look into taking a workshop into spraying WB finishes next month....I just did a kitchen cabinet job with my usual, go-to acrylic semi-gloss paint and airless but the customer was unhappy with the 30 day curing time and the way they easily nicked hanging the doors onto new hinges...{He hung them after 10 days}...BTW I went back 30 days later and the finish was as hard as nails.

As it stand now I don't have the confidence to use WB lacquers with my HVLP for paying customers...I need a go to product and a better system....

To be continued.......


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

What brand of WB lacquer did you use on your cabinets? 

I do this type of thing often and i'm still looking for a good WB solution. MLC's Agualente primers and WB topcoats are excellent, and I hear Valspars Zenith is also excellent. They will all tell you though that they cannot guarantee the finish won't chip or flake off, since waterborne won't bite into a solvent borne finish (existing cabs). While the wb lacquers are excellent in and of themselves, i'm still looking for a solution to use them over existing finishes. Creating a mechanical bond is obviously a necessity, as is ensuring the existing finish is sparkling clean and free of any silicone, wax or polish. 

For the time being i'm still using solvent borne finishes for this kind of work, and I use a graco AAA - great machine for this kind of thing.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Rcon said:


> What brand of WB lacquer did you use on your cabinets?
> 
> I do this type of thing often and i'm still looking for a good WB solution. MLC's Agualente primers and WB topcoats are excellent, and I hear Valspars Zenith is also excellent. They will all tell you though that they cannot guarantee the finish won't chip or flake off, since waterborne won't bite into a solvent borne finish (existing cabs). While the wb lacquers are excellent in and of themselves, i'm still looking for a solution to use them over existing finishes. Creating a mechanical bond is obviously a necessity, as is ensuring the existing finish is sparkling clean and free of any silicone, wax or polish.
> 
> For the time being i'm still using solvent borne finishes for this kind of work, and I use a graco AAA - great machine for this kind of thing.


I just used a local Cloverdale brand they sell around here...It's a fairly inexpensive brand and I know that there are better WB lacquers on the market.

The thing is most customers don't want the other lacquers sprayed in their homes...They want acrylics or low VOC..

Aren't they OK if you prime first with the WB lacquer primers?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> I just used a local Cloverdale brand they sell around here...It's a fairly inexpensive brand and I know that there are better WB lacquers on the market.
> 
> The thing is most customers don't want the other lacquers sprayed in their homes...They want acrylics or low VOC..


Many sb finishes are low voc these days. The MLC lacquers I use are HAPs free and low voc. They still stink though. Then again, so do wb lacquers. The big issue with SB finishes is the explosion hazard - which is why i'm looking for a wb alternative.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Rcon said:


> Many sb finishes are low voc these days. The MLC lacquers I use are HAPs free and low voc. They still stink though. Then again, so do wb lacquers. The big issue with SB finishes is the explosion hazard - which is why i'm looking for a wb alternative.[/QUOTE
> 
> Yeah I agree...I never got into using SB lacquers because of the explosive nature of the product,not to mention the health issues .


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Aren't they OK if you prime first with the WB lacquer primers?


The wb lacquer primers won't form a chemical bond with sb finishes - I asked about that. That's why a good mechanical bond is necessary. They still won't guarantee that it won't chip or flake. If they could, I wouldn't be using sb finishes anymore. 

A shellac undercoat would work, but would also defeat the purpose since shellac is a sb finish.


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## Cusingeorge (Jan 19, 2008)

Rcon said:


> Many sb finishes are low voc these days. The MLC lacquers I use are HAPs free and low voc. They still stink though. Then again, so do wb lacquers.



Are you talking about the smell or how they perform? I've not seen a waterborne that was as offensive as solvent. The low VOC solvents are really different (Oxsol is one of them) but I don't think they are any worse than what we've been manufacturing, just different than what we are used to.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Although, if you are going over a catalyzed finish, event solvent borne is relying on a mechanical bond. Precat or post cat lacquer should not redissolve in lacquer thinner once it is fully cured. The pre cat lacquer specs call for sanding if the lacquer was last applied a couple days prior.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Rcon said:


> The wb lacquer primers won't form a chemical bond with sb finishes - I asked about that. That's why a good mechanical bond is necessary. They still won't guarantee that it won't chip or flake. If they could, I wouldn't be using sb finishes anymore.
> 
> A shellac undercoat would work, but would also defeat the purpose since shellac is a sb finish.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## jnigh (Feb 24, 2011)

i have yet to use or hear about a wb finish that is user friendly or something you would feel comfortable selling to anybody due to its drawbacks. fisheyes, bubbleing, doesnt sand well etc. As far as the exsplosive factor i have sprayed 30 or so gallons of lacquer in a shop with little ventilation meanwhile heating the building with a homemade wood stove never had a problem. it takes alot of open flame and vapor in order to cause explosive reaction trust me thats how we do it in montana.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

jnigh said:


> i have yet to use or hear about a wb finish that is user friendly or something you would feel comfortable selling to anybody due to its drawbacks. fisheyes, bubbleing, doesnt sand well etc. As far as the exsplosive factor i have sprayed 30 or so gallons of lacquer in a shop with little ventilation meanwhile heating the building with a homemade wood stove never had a problem. it takes alot of open flame and vapor in order to cause explosive reaction trust me thats how we do it in montana.


omg...Painters have died because of a pilot light from a gas stove while spraying SB lacquer...That's bad advice and could kill someone.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

jnigh said:


> As far as the exsplosive factor i have sprayed 30 or so gallons of lacquer in a shop with little ventilation meanwhile heating the building with a homemade wood stove never had a problem. it takes alot of open flame and vapor in order to cause explosive reaction trust me thats how we do it in montana.


Yes the concentration does need to be high to create an explosive environment but with on-site work there are always little pocket areas that could accumulate enough vapors to be explosive. 

As far as spraying sb lacquer in a shop heated by a wood burning stove I think yer crazy for doing that :blink:

Josey: Not sure about the stix - haven't tried it yet, but i've heard about it. I would be interested in finding out more. 

Dean: yes even sb requires a mechanical bond after the recoat window has passed - but sb finishes still bite into previous sb coatings whereas wb finishes will not.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jnigh said:


> i have yet to use or hear about a wb finish that is user friendly or something you would feel comfortable selling to anybody due to its drawbacks. fisheyes, bubbleing, doesnt sand well etc. As far as the exsplosive factor i have sprayed 30 or so gallons of lacquer in a shop with little ventilation meanwhile heating the building with a homemade wood stove never had a problem. it takes alot of open flame and vapor in order to cause explosive reaction trust me thats how we do it in montana.


A local painter had been doing that in his shop for years as well. This winter he was not lucky, except in that he made it out alive and was largely covered with burns over his entire body and the shop burned to the ground. It only takes once.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Rcon, one nice thing about Target coatings is their 6000 wb lacquer will burn into itself indefinitely and they list all the burn in windows for their other wb products. They have very useful tds sheets, a rarity.


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## c65jones (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm aware of an incident here in Utah about 3 years ago where a painter was killed because of an explosion due to spraying lacquers with a lit pilot light in the same basement room. We also had a situation about 2 years ago were a painter caught a kitchen he was refinishing on fire when he left his stain soaked rag on a counter bunched up, and it spontaneously combusted during the night when no one was around. The newly installed sprinkler system put it out containing the fire to only the kitchen. 

These two fire hazards are uncommon, but can happen. Hopefully everyone takes precations to avoid them.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Anyone try this water based lacquer called Centurion?

http://youtu.be/TjgkugJhztY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7T1KVhwNNs8


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

DeanV said:


> Rcon, one nice thing about Target coatings is their 6000 wb lacquer will burn into itself indefinitely and they list all the burn in windows for their other wb products. They have very useful tds sheets, a rarity.


I hear a lot of good things about target coatings actually. I wish they had a distributor locally so when I needed custom matches I could get them from them. Definitely going to have to try their clears though.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Anyone try this water based lacquer called Centurion?
> 
> http://youtu.be/TjgkugJhztY
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7T1KVhwNNs8


I had never heard of it myself before seeing that video.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Target's 2000 looks very similar to precat lacquer and has a similar feel. My favorite from their product line

9000 is nice, no problems there, same for 8000, and 6000.

9300 did not work for me, it really altered the color of the stain in a bad, washed out manner. Could have been a bad batch, but looked ridiculous no matter how I applied it, thick, thin, etc. Also did not hold up well in my exterior tests over sw bac stain.

I do not like the plastic lid and can gallons the product comes in, very hard to close.

Since i need to get it shipped from the manufacturer, settling of the flatting agent while being stored is a problem and does not stir in well.

Their on line store and finishing forum are great. You can almost always order ar 20-30% of retail price.


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