# Unlicensed painters



## aroplate (Aug 21, 2013)

I think it's time all of us who follow the rules (contractors license fees, insurance, taxes, etc.. Etc...) to stand up against all the unlicensed activity that goes on, they are driving our bids down with unfair competition, making it difficult to make a profit, we need a voice for the contractors.


----------



## aroplate (Aug 21, 2013)

I can't think of any other business that has such much non regulation of unlicensed activity than the painting industry, it needs to be enforced and the CSLB does nothing but take our money every two years, am I the only one who feels this way?


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

aroplate said:


> I think it's time all of us who follow the rules (contractors license fees, insurance, taxes, etc.. Etc...) to stand up against all the unlicensed activity that goes on, they are driving our bids down with unfair competition, making it difficult to make a profit, we need a voice for the contractors.


 
how:blink:?


----------



## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

its a world wide problem.


----------



## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Not sure what the solution is. I think consumer awareness helps somewhat. It's a tough game, but a lot of painters seem to find the way to beat this is maintain a highly professional image. 

Presentation, image, service, honesty, reputation.... These things will give a professional painter a point of difference.


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

as long as the homeowners are after the 
cheapest price it will never go away 

sure many ho want a solid company that offers quality but must, in Florida at least, are only looking at the dollar ... sad but true

how is it in other states for repaints?

we see lawyers, insurance agents, doctors ect that all know the danger of unlicensed workers but still hire them to save money

thats how painters get a bad name, ho takes bottom price then cries because of quality , always the painters fault

:blink:

still plenty of work and good pay for a real painter but the unlicensed will never go away ... let them feed off the bottom and stay professional and you'll stay busy , we're turning down work because can't find quality painters


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Let me ask you-How would you compete where their is no license?


----------



## CraigF (Jul 28, 2013)

Here in Texas we have a pretty large amount of uninsured, no tax paying low end paint contractors. I can't and don't want to try to compete with them. They are not my competition in much the same way a person looking for a brand new Audi or Lexus doesn't go to a Yugo dealership. If a person is looking for that kind of painter I tell the straight up its not me.

The best way to get around them is simple. Outline and detail your estimates stating exactly what your doing (i.e. describe exactly how your prepping, how many coats of paint and primer your using, how you are protecting their valuables, etc..). Make sure that both your self and your estimates have a neat clean appearance. Have a helper/teacher (not know it all) mentality when talking to them. If they want or need to save money work with them to find ways to maximize their dollar inside your pricing structure....never work for less money but use your experience to do things in a way that might help the client save money. If they like you they will pay a little more for you knowing that it will save them money in the long run.

Encourage the home owner to get bids if they want to then ask them to be certain they are comparing apples to apples. 9.9 times out of 10 the low end painters can't make money doing things correctly and with the proper material.... and when they try to they want to charge the client more than you will charge them because they don't have a system for high quality work done efficiently. To the low end painter good work is too difficult for them to do. 

I've been doing this on my own since 1996 and with the exception of December of 2008 I've never had problem keeping a full schedule.


----------



## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

I,am registered in my town and have all my needed insurances ( liability workman's comp) and I rarely am asked if I have these requirements from home owners .


----------



## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

No license needed here. Its both a blessing and a curse. Insurance is all that is required. Not that I necessarily disagree with the premise. I had a license in Cali but 5 times out of 10 the license guys were puttin out crap too. I would say due diligence is on the customers to to check recent referrals above all else. Thats the best weapon both we as the contractors and the customers have to weed out the crap shooters.


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

The solution is performing excellent work.

Also, using the fact you are licensed and insured as a sales point.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Unionize


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Bender said:


> Unionize


Feeling a little frisky this morning aren't we?


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Feeling a little frisky this morning aren't we?


Should I take the 'union painters are lazy' side or try to explain how unions would help our trade

No matter. The only threads that get traction these days are the ones with pain and suffering.
Or cures for pain and suffering.


----------



## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

Bender said:


> Unionize


BUWAHAHHAHAA!! (insert floor slapping emoticon here)


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

aroplate said:


> I can't think of any other business that has such much non regulation of unlicensed activity than the painting industry, it needs to be enforced and the CSLB does nothing but take our money every two years, am I the only one who feels this way?


Licensing will do nothing to change this, and to be honest I feel like its just another tax on a legitimate business owner. 

Read this thread on CT to get an idea of what is happening in my state with illegals. These guys aren't even legal to work in this country, so requiring a painting license, which this county does, is useless. In this instance the contractor was hiring them without insurance.

7000 square foot custom lake house for less than $2/square. 


http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/need-bidding-advice-painting-new-construction-139451/#post1853338


----------



## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> Licensing will do nothing to change this, and to be honest I feel like its just another tax on a legitimate business owner.
> 
> Read this thread on CT to get an idea of what is happening in my state with illegals. These guys aren't even legal to work in this country, so requiring a painting license, which this county does, is useless. In this instance the contractor was hiring them without insurance.
> 
> ...


I don't see how it's possible to make money at that price even with illegals.


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Here is how I got my business licensed.

Went on PA gov website. Typed in insurance number. Paid $75 or so. Received license. No testing. No verification. No checking by any agency to make sure policy was still in effect. 

Having a license doesn't mean you are paying taxes, paying workmen's comp, or paying guys legitimately with matching taxes. The license is a meaningless tax. Those other things are where the true savings comes in and a license won't change a dishonest company owner. the government can't regulate the path for you to close sales. The other guys above gave you great advice on how to compete with lowballers. Don't play in the same sand.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Licensing will do nothing to change this, and to be honest I feel like its just another tax on a legitimate business owner.
> 
> Read this thread on CT to get an idea of what is happening in my state with illegals. These guys aren't even legal to work in this country, so requiring a painting license, which this county does, is useless. In this instance the contractor was hiring them without insurance.
> 
> ...


I just looked at that thread!! Sad!! Omg what are they thinking?! That's just too depressing is what that is. Not even funny. 
Should be at least three fiddy!!! Haha.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Licensing is good to have if you want customers that value it.


----------



## aroplate (Aug 21, 2013)

It's true that a license doesn't make a painter better than any other painter, and I know of great painters without a license (my dad).
I haven't been asked to show my license in years, and that's probably how these guys are getting around it. But regardless of what we do to prove our professionalism to prospective clients, we are competing against unlicensed contractors and they are underbidding us, that is a fact Jack.

The only answer is to eliminate the license to create fair playing board, but that will never happen. Here in Cali they have a company called SWIFT that you can call and report, but by the time they respond the painter is long gone.
Seems hopeless.


----------



## aroplate (Aug 21, 2013)

@Bender,

Even the unions cant stop scabs, and they could never enforce a private homeowner to hire a union company at prevailing wage when they can get someone cheaper.
Maybe they should make a permit for all private painting projects to be signed off by a licensed contractor, it probably won't be long before you have to have a permit to paint your house anyway.


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Where I am there is no license, there used to be, we had what was called occupational license. I carried 6 or 7 of them, tile, paint, pressure washing, remove and replace, handyman, and i forget what the other one was. To get one they were $10 each you went to the tax office paid your $10 and you were a licensed painter.The reason they did away with them is they figured out they were bringing in $75,000 and paying out $100,000 a year so no more license.
Why do you want to compete with these people? They are getting jobs you probably wouldn't get anyway. The people that hire them want cheap over quality. They would most likely not paint or paint themselves before they would pay your prices.
The best way I see to compete with them is to lower you prices and standards to meet theirs. Or when you talk to someone make sure you emphasize your licensed, and insured, and experienced, give references and encourage new customers to check them. If you advertise stress some of these points not just a something down in the corner that says in small print licensed and insured. Do follow up with your past customers, ask for referrals.
This means you are going to lose bids to the lowballers and yes it's frustrating but just move on. If you lose too many maybe check your pricing structure.


----------



## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

I just filed a report with CA SWIFT DEPT. I asked the realtor if the guy that out bid me by 500. was licensed he said no they were moonlighting union painters. I downloaded the report form I called swift they asked me to fill it out and fax it to them immediately, these scumbags are going to start the job any day. It would be nice to see a little justice. This is the second time in one month I was outbid by an unlicensed Painter


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

That get under my skin these unlicensed painters under bidding us. I also report painters doing lead wrong.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

good for you:thumbsup:


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

There's no licensing for painting contractors in my state, so I can't relate. But there will ALWAYS be lowballer's no matter the trade.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> There's no licensing for painting contractors in my state, so I can't relate. But there will ALWAYS be lowballer's no matter the trade.


We don't need a license from the state. City laws mostly for banking with a business name we needed to get our HIC License, we also needed it for when I took the RRP course.


----------



## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> That get under my skin these unlicensed painters under bidding us. I also report painters doing lead wrong.


I think the lead laws are idiotic and way too demanding. I can see wrapping household belongings in plastic, using tarps, a good vacuum and a very good cleaning before you leave the house (all for interior work) besides that the cost containment that the EPA wants you to do could nearly double the job price. Even worse, what they want you to do for exterior work is nearly impossible. I think someone who reports people for that are jealous they don't have the work. Short of eating the paint chips or blowing lines of paint dust you'll be fine and so will everyone else. This is just another way of big bro keeping tabs on you!


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

A tax by any other name is still a tax.
They garner support under the guise of protecting the consumer. 
There are many many many hack licensed contractors out there. ..and even more unscrupulous contractors. 

In my opinion being unlicensed is one of the most patriotic things you can do....along with underground economies. .and owning guns.

These regulations are in place to oppress poor people.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I think the lead laws are idiotic and way too demanding. I can see wrapping household belongings in plastic, using tarps, a good vacuum and a very good cleaning before you leave the house (all for interior work) besides that the cost containment that the EPA wants you to do could nearly double the job price. Even worse, what they want you to do for exterior work is nearly impossible. I think someone who reports people for that are jealous they don't have the work. Short of eating the paint chips or blowing lines of paint dust you'll be fine and so will everyone else. This is just another way of big bro keeping tabs on you!


Ummm 12 out of 20 houses we painted last year contained lead, 5 houses we have coming up this season contain lead. We are by far not jealous. I have paid for the course and follow the laws. Others that do not piss me and some of us real legit painters off. I have the local lead inspectors phone number on speed dial and have called him to report people doing it wrong and I call him to come do a walk thru with us before every lead job we do.
You sound just like Richmond painting. Why bother following the laws right. If you worked around here I would drop a dime and report you in a heart beat.

Edit:
Our company did over $150k in business last year so we are by far not starving. We are only a 2 person operation.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I'm very busy right now....and referred an unlicensed painter to a prospective customer today. It's great.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

high fibre said:


> I'm very busy right now....and referred an unlicensed painter to a prospective customer today. It's great.


lol same old John.


----------



## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

All a license really is, is a tax. I've been asked to show my license maybe 3 times out of 80 estimates in the past year. Nobody really cares. They either expect you are or don't know any better to ask. 
All you have to do to be licensed is pay the money and here you go, your a professional contractor. 
For a home improvement license in CT it's $220.00 for the year. Not very expensive, but anyone can get one. Fill out the paperwork, send the check...thats it. No background checks, history of employment in the trade, knowledge of the trade. All you have to do to be licensed is fill out is your name, personal info, the name of the business, the address, and check yes or no have you been convicted of a felon in the past 5 years. 

At the very least, to provide a service in the trades, you should have liability insurance before you can get a license, and maybe even have to pass a simple paint, safety, and business skill test in order to be considered a painting contractor. 

I'd rather pay more to be licensed if it was better regulated and enforced, hopefully minimizing or making it harder for those who work for cash with no ins. and the fly by nights who have no idea what their doing. Even though they aren't much competition to me in my market, they still affect my bottom line. It drives the prices way down in the industry and that affects all legitimate painting contractors.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

One of the many benefits of being unlicensed is that you don't have to be a lowballer. 

You can charge as much as you like..and if you have a good reputation for high quality work.....whamo! you've hit a home run.

It's a myth that under the radar types are lowballers. Although it's nice to know you can if needed.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Even the "undocumented" workers are competitive here.
They're not retards!


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> Even the "undocumented" workers are competitive here.
> They're not retards!


Starting to sound like Blackwell John.


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Licensing and being legitimate don't make anyone a good painter.

I don't think the issue is about licensing and any other "compulsary" expenses. I think it's simply the fact the a lot of us painters have much higher standards than most of our clients, and we're unwilling to let go of those standards.

Especially those on a website like this, who enjoy chatting about technical stuff, want to improve ourselves, we are more artists than businessmen. The market is not willing to pay for the high standards we expect from ourselves.

Ultimately, the goal is to find some sort of a niche where we can live up to our high standards but also get paid well. Working for fussy clients and/or educating them about the steps needed for long-lasting results is one way to go, but there are other ways. Taking on tough, challenging jobs, doing some sort of unique decorative finishes, and providing a one-stop property maintenance option can help you differentiate yourself from the rest, even if you're not cheap.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

This is refreshing^


----------



## jwilks75 (Jan 12, 2014)

Here in Texas no license needed unless your in Mechanical, Electrician, or Plumber. The Texas Residential Construction Commission was disbanded several years ago which basically took about $500 from you and asked you a few questions like "Do you owe child support?" It was basically a tax if you were doing remodels or new construction above $10,000. All I know is Master Electricians and Plumbers in this area get around $150 and hour. You have to have your Masters to pull a permit if you don't have these permits pulled and an inspector sees work going on then your job gets shut down. This in return keeps GC's wanting to hire licensed contractors who charge accordingly. Painters, drywallers, and carpenters on the other hand get low balled. There's so much competition for the builders a person can builder shop till they're getting a custom cheaper than a spec home with a bunch of builder grade finishes. Guess who the builder low balls to stay profitable? Not the trades that will get their job shut down if not licensed.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

The 3rd Coat said:


> Licensing and being legitimate don't make anyone a good painter.
> 
> I don't think the issue is about licensing and any other "compulsary" expenses. I think it's simply the fact the a lot of us painters have much higher standards than most of our clients, and we're unwilling to let go of those standards.
> 
> ...


This is more about unlicensed painters under cutting the legit painters who spend the time and money to be legit.


----------



## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Like discussed in this thread, it's not expensive to be legit. The only issue I see is cash jobs vs invoiced jobs.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

The cheapest replacement window company here is licensed.

They are cheaper than anyone and provide crappy customer service. .and shoddy work.

They are licensed....


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Cash is nice
But be sure to give the king his fair share.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Being licensed here in California is no easy task. You have to prove beyond a doubt you have at least 4 years of experience in this trade. A note from your dad will not work. They fingerprint you, run background checks. Then you have to take two tests, one on painting and the other on law. Painting one is easy but the law one, you most likely have to go to school for. 

I'm sure there are a few other states like this, I think Washington or Oregon is close. So as you can see it's not easy to get license here. 

With all that said. It really means nothing. Nobody ever asks me for my license. I would say in the last 15 years it was brought up a dozen times. 

There are non licensed painters that shop regular at my store, Great guys and they do great work. Top notch work. Also they are very expensive. Sometimes my store gives out three names and I'm pretty happy when they are included as I know I will not be the highest price.

One thing you will never catch me doing is being a snitch. If I lost a job due to a guy biding lower then me then so be it. Makes no difference if they are licensed or not. I just lost the job and have nobody to blame but me.

Pat


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

What a read....


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

To become a painting contractor in Oregon you need at least sixteen hours of documented training time to even be able to take the test, which covers:

*role of the Oregon CCB (Construction Contractors Board)
*employee rights and employer requirements
*contract law
*lien law
*tax record keeping
*project management
*building codes
*occupational safety and health
*environmental law

It's an open book test but the book is about 450 pages so...


Also;

*license is good for two years (prove of insurance and bond required)
*16 hrs. of state approved continuing education required (every two years) before renewing license
*Plus the separate RRP training and license


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Occupy Paint Talk












Hey, I'm just as much as a hippie free love anti-establishment radical as the next guy, but if I have to play by the rules, they so should everyone else. 

I'll drop that dime.


----------



## jwilks75 (Jan 12, 2014)

RH said:


> To become a painting contractor in Oregon you need at least sixteen hours of documented training time to even be able to take the test, which covers:
> 
> *role of the Oregon CCB (Construction Contractors Board)
> *employee rights and employer requirements
> ...


That would cut out about 50% of undocumented workers where I'm at, 80% if it was only printed in English.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I don't feel like the under-the- table guys are hurting me that much. They will exist as long as demand for them exists. Everyone has a roll, and everyone needs to do what they need to do to survive. I guess that is why I'm not a dime dropping kind of guy.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> Being licensed here in California is no easy task. You have to prove beyond a doubt you have at least 4 years of experience in this trade. A note from your dad will not work. They fingerprint you, run background checks. Then you have to take two tests, one on painting and the other on law. Painting one is easy but the law one, you most likely have to go to school for.
> 
> I'm sure there are a few other states like this, I think Washington or Oregon is close. So as you can see it's not easy to get license here.
> 
> ...


We used to hold a WA ticket as well, getting it is pretty simple.I think it took an afternoon from beginning to end, and that included the three-hour drive to the nearest office.

The WA contractor "registration" is really about making sure contractors pay sales taxes on completed jobs. That rate varies by location, but is often around 8% of the job cost. Adding that $800 to a $10,000 paint job doesn't make it any easier to compete with the unregistered outfits.


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

It's actually between 8.6-10.0% when you include county, city, and transit. There's no income tax in Washington, so sales tax is high. I'm required to pay monthly. The majority of Seattleites loves their taxes! At least that's how they vote.


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

As someone who has been through the ringer to get a license in California (and worked unlicensed for 3+ years because of it) I feel like I have a pretty unbiased attitude on viewing things from both sides. Sometimes a man just needs to survive, and sometimes you have to break the rules to move forward. 

Unlicensed tradesmen are always going to be a problem, but the system is also flawed (at least in CA). I know licensed painters that should be kicked out of this business, and I'm sure there are unlicensed guys that do great work. And, for a few years I was one of them.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> It's actually between 8.6-10.0% when you include county, city, and transit. There's no income tax in Washington, so sales tax is high. I'm required to pay monthly. The majority of Seattleites loves their taxes! At least that's how they vote.


It's lower on the East Side, 7.8% and up, depending.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

It's 4.8% in Maui! And that was at a restaurant which is usually higher. I'm used to doubling the tax to figure out a tip but that doesn't work there. Food was 2-3 times as much at the store. $10+ for a gallon of milk!


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> To become a painting contractor in Oregon you need at least sixteen hours of documented training time to even be able to take the test, which covers:
> 
> *role of the Oregon CCB (Construction Contractors Board)
> *employee rights and employer requirements
> ...


how much?
$375 here in MD


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

South Carolina's licensing is pretty simple and cheap. 

You need three references from people you've worked for, customers or employers doesn't matter. 

Background and credit check, pay $100, and if doing jobs 5k and over they want a 5k surety bond on file, and the license is good for two years.

No insurance requirements or classes needed. I think instead of the bond requirement they should require insurance but whatever.

BTW growing up in da hood taught me that snitches get stitches, Ben knows what I'm talking about.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Haven't been here for awhile, and haven't read all the posts on this thread, but I'll assume the OP is a young guy, a liberal, or both......looking for government to solve his problem. Just a guess.

Years ago in Broward County Florida, the brilliant minds of the local PCA branch (of which I was a supplier rep member) worked diligently to finally get the county to require that painters be licensed. 

Yes, they sold it to themselves, and the county, that it was 'a noble cause' ...... to 'protect the consumer'......when in reality, it was to use 'law' to eliminate competition. (I saw that the Emperor had no clothes, and said so, but the rest of the members pretended that the clothes were beautiful).

And like most new laws, it was shoved down the citizens throats as they were told, 'it is for your own good' ......... because you are too stupid to make your own choices.

So now, years later, after shooting themselves in the foot, the painters of Broward County no longer have a SELLING POINT, as ALL of them are licensed and they all 'compete against licensed painters'. And more people now 'do it themselves' because of the higher prices being charged by painting contractors. 

Yes, they eliminated some competition, but how many 'customers' did they eliminate......as well as their sales advantage?

Everything is a trade off, There are two sides to every story, and realize there is a forest behind that tree in front of you.

And BTW, I thought CraigF's post was spot on.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Doesn't a license bind a contract, particularly in a state that requires one to operate a business legitimately? 

At the least, I believe a license provides some measure of qualification. And if the rules of a state require a contractor to have one, and a homeowner hires a contractor without one, there should be no recourse for the homeowner.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

daArch said:


> Occupy Paint Talk
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All day every day. Play by the rules or get off the field.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Doesn't a license bind a contract, particularly in a state that requires one to operate a business legitimately?
> 
> At the least, I believe a license provides some measure of qualification. And if the rules of a state require a contractor to have one, and a homeowner hires a contractor without one, there should be no recourse for the homeowner.


It does some measure of that here in ID. Operating without a license means a contractor loses the right to file a lien. It's my understanding that it's similar in some other states.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Do the states/cities that require painters to be licensed even enforce that law?


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

high fibre said:


> A In my opinion being unlicensed is one of the most patriotic things you can do....along with underground economies.


I touched on this point in another thread (post #46)

It does seem that the American entrepreneurial spirit thrives on circumventing the rules. The problem is however, too many people believe they are entrepreneurs, despite no measurable qualifications other then the size of their egos, and their heads. The argument that "having a license doesn't make you a better painter or contractor" doesn't hold weight. A license demonstrates responsibility and the willingness to act, and not be lazy.

For example, countless idiots with absolutely no common sense graduate daily from our junior colleges, and universities. When those same graduates compete for jobs, who do you think employers are going to consider? The one with _no_ measurable qualification other then a real snappy resume, sharp clothing, and a toothy white smile, or the one with with a certification of completion from a relevant institution?

As a Joe Schmo homeowner in California, no one works on my pad without a license.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> Do the states/cities that require painters to be licensed even enforce that law?


In the years we worked over in WA, we were asked once, and that was for a high-profile job in the middle of town. The only real purpose was for the BO to shake us down for a permit, based on repairing some plaster cracks.

I had a flashback, I thought I was back in Chicago:whistling2:

Here in ID, we have to furnish it when we pull a permit for work like siding repairs, but I've never been asked by a client.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

It seems like alot of east and west coast states require a license. ...and Florida but not many in the midwest and towards the middle of the country....now if there weren't soo many states heavily populated with unions.....

.east coast interests me just way to many unions....


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

jr.sr. painting said:


> I think the lead laws are idiotic and way too demanding. I can see wrapping household belongings in plastic, using tarps, a good vacuum and a very good cleaning before you leave the house (all for interior work) besides that the cost containment that the EPA wants you to do could nearly double the job price. Even worse, what they want you to do for exterior work is nearly impossible. I think someone who reports people for that are jealous they don't have the work. Short of eating the paint chips or blowing lines of paint dust you'll be fine and so will everyone else. This is just another way of big bro keeping tabs on you!


Look at some of the work Kevin with premier has posted here. He seems to be doing just fine and they are able to stay compliant. I have had painters colic several times in my career before I even knew that it was lead poisoning.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Gough said:


> In the years we worked over in WA, we were asked once, and that was for a high-profile job in the middle of town. The only real purpose was for the BO to shake us down for a permit, based on repairing some plaster cracks.
> 
> I had a flashback, I thought I was back in Chicago:whistling2:
> 
> Here in ID, we have to furnish it when we pull a permit for work like siding repairs, but I've never been asked by a client.


Not the HO but a division of the state that checks contractors for their licenses while they are onsite. The HIC license covers me for pulling permits for siding and some other carpentry, we don't do carpentry at all.
Like around here a division of OSHA will do random checks for comp. Other wise it's just the lead inspector checking for the lead license.
Repairing cracked plaster as long as we don't remove a walls worth we can patch it or fill it with compound.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Anyone know where I can get a list of states that do require a license? Maybe some stats on construction and how the state is doing with new construction ect......


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> Anyone know where I can get a list of states that do require a license? Maybe some stats on construction and how the state is doing with new construction ect......


Google


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I check out the weekly property transactions as well for MA,NH and ME


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Anyone know where I can get a list of states that do require a license? Maybe some stats on construction and how the state is doing with new construction ect......





cdpainting said:


> Google


I would be more than happy to provide that information to Richmond! 

http://www.contractors-license.org/


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> It seems like alot of east and west coast states require a license. ...and Florida but not many in the midwest and towards the middle of the country....now if there weren't soo many states heavily populated with unions.....
> 
> .east coast interests me just way to many unions....


Fla is county by county where I am you don't need a license. If you do a good job you have business, you do bad job you have no business. What a concept.


----------



## Marrone72 (Oct 12, 2013)

aroplate said:


> @Bender,
> 
> *Even the unions cant stop scabs*, and they could never enforce a private homeowner to hire a union company at prevailing wage when they can get someone cheaper.
> Maybe they should make a permit for all private painting projects to be signed off by a licensed contractor, it probably won't be long before you have to have a permit to paint your house anyway.


FYI - unions consider scabs to be ALL none-union companies. Whether they are 100% legal or not, they are still scabs to unions. 

And yes, unions can stop non-union painters job in progress, if a job is a commercial job, spec'd for union. That is where the unions business agents do their jobs.


----------



## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

CraigF said:


> Here in Texas we have a pretty large amount of uninsured, no tax paying low end paint contractors. I can't and don't want to try to compete with them. They are not my competition in much the same way a person looking for a brand new Audi or Lexus doesn't go to a Yugo dealership. If a person is looking for that kind of painter I tell the straight up its not me.
> 
> The best way to get around them is simple. Outline and detail your estimates stating exactly what your doing (i.e. describe exactly how your prepping, how many coats of paint and primer your using, how you are protecting their valuables, etc..). Make sure that both your self and your estimates have a neat clean appearance. Have a helper/teacher (not know it all) mentality when talking to them. If they want or need to save money work with them to find ways to maximize their dollar inside your pricing structure....never work for less money but use your experience to do things in a way that might help the client save money. If they like you they will pay a little more for you knowing that it will save them money in the long run.
> 
> ...


Great post!


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> Fla is county by county where I am you don't need a license. If you do a good job you have business, you do bad job you have no business. What a concept.


Florida seems really rough....im already bidding in 12 states...I'd like to see if there are any more open states that interest me where I dont need a license. .


----------



## jwilks75 (Jan 12, 2014)

What happens when non licensed painters get caught in places requiring licenses? Just curious since I'm in a state that doesn't require licensing for painters.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

ttd said:


> Great post!


This is the truth....I painted a home...well it was the first house I painted on my own after I left my first and only partner...I charged half of what I would now....now the guy needs more painting....he knows I've gotten big and im doing well....now he's talked my guys into do it as a side job...you would think id be mad....it does suck I lost a customer but obviously he's not trying to pay the price.....id rather see my guys get the money then some other contractor.....and he sees me also pretty often....basically he's having my top guy who originally painted his exterior do it as a side job......

Point is....the guy is cheap and looking for a new company with little experience or a side job painter.....you cant really hate it...

Basically what it comes to is there is enough work for everyone out there and no reason contractors should be fighting over work......


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Marrone72 said:


> FYI - unions consider scabs to be ALL none-union companies. Whether they are 100% legal or not, they are still scabs to unions.
> 
> And yes, unions can stop non-union painters job in progress, if a job is a commercial job, spec'd for union. That is where the unions business agents do their jobs.


They can try. They can picket. In MA a non union company can put in a competitive wage bid against union companies. I have seen some get picketed and some not. It all depends on how busy the unions are.
Yes union calls all of us non union scabs, I say what ever makes them feel better let them talk all they want, it's the non union guys doing the work at the time.

Mods.
If this is to political please don't close the thread or move it to the PZ just edit or delete my post.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> how much?
> $375 here in MD


$325 for a two year license, $50 yearly for the RRP license (Oregon is one of those states that handles this on their own) plus a yearly $75 "registration fee" for the business.

Not exactly sure what it cost these days to take the initial training and test but if I remember right it was around $500 total. You can take the test over as many times as you want until you pass but you have to pay each time to do so and it isn't cheap.

The cost of the classes for the continuing education runs around $160 total.



cdpainting said:


> Do the states/cities that require painters to be licensed even enforce that law?





jwilks75 said:


> What happens when non licensed painters get caught in places requiring licenses? Just curious since I'm in a state that doesn't require licensing for painters.


They try here but as in most places they can't keep up with the bulk of those working without proper licensing, insurance, and bonds.

The CCB used to publish the names of outfits and companies that were fined during the previous quarter. Most were due to working without a license or working outside the scope of the one they had. Fines generally went from a few hundred up to five or even ten thousand. The higher amounts usually being for repeat offenders.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't call anyone a scab. Never use the word. Never rat on anyone for any reason either. I tend to my own business. What anyone else does or is, is of no concern to me.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Oden said:


> I don't call anyone a scab. Never use the word. Never rat on anyone for any reason either. I tend to my own business. What anyone else does or is, is of no concern to me.


The way it should be....


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

richmondpainting said:


> It seems like alot of east and west coast states require a license. ...and Florida but not many in the midwest and towards the middle of the country....now if there weren't soo many states heavily populated with unions.....
> 
> .east coast interests me just way to many unions....


The state of Florida does not require a license for painting, although local governments can if they choose.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Toolnut said:


> Fla is county by county where I am you don't need a license. If you do a good job you have business, you do bad job you have no business. What a concept.


Bingo. As it should be.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

kerk said:


> The state of Florida does not require a license for painting, although local governments can if they choose.


I thought you have to have a license for every county you work in?


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

richmondpainting said:


> It seems like alot of east and west coast states require a license. ...and Florida but not many in the midwest and towards the middle of the country....now if there weren't soo many states heavily populated with unions.....
> 
> .east coast interests me just way to many unions....


I'm sure there is a correlation between liberal run states and licensing. It appears that those who live in blue states are much less capable of making their own decisions, and thus need government to think for them. 

More licensing = less freedom, ain't no other side to that argument.

And as old Benny Franklin said, "..Those who would trade liberty for security, deserve neither..". Nor will they have it.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

richmondpainting said:


> I thought you have to have a license for every county you work in?


Nope.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

kerk said:


> I'm sure there is a correlation between liberal run states and licensing. It appears that those who live in blue states are much less capable of making their own decisions, and thus need government to think for them. More licensing = less freedom, ain't no other side to that argument. And as old Benny Franklin said, "..Those who would trade liberty for security, deserve neither..". Nor will they have it.


Ben Franklin was from Philly. Just sayin.


----------



## jwilks75 (Jan 12, 2014)

Oden said:


> I don't call anyone a scab. Never use the word. Never rat on anyone for any reason either. I tend to my own business. What anyone else does or is, is of no concern to me.


Agree! There's been times in my 20's going to school where I was painting my hind end off just to pay rent. Mind you this was in a state not requiring a license, but I can imagine if I was in a state that did and someone called me in.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Oden said:


> Ben Franklin was from Philly. Just sayin.


Not only that, but he was born in Boston.....but then, over 300 years ago. But I'm sure he would be tickled to see that he is 'still' quoted....for good reason. Wisdom never gets old.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

kerk said:


> Nope.


Thats not what I've heard from Aaron and repaint Florida. ....
.


----------



## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

I don't know how have the guys in my area can be legit contractors , with insurance and their HIC when their not even legal .


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

richmondpainting said:


> Thats not what I've heard from Aaron and repaint Florida. ....
> .


Sorry. I know what I know, and the 'state' does not require licensing. I would be interested to place a wager with your other sources in that regard. 'You' hold our monies.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> Thats not what I've heard from Aaron and repaint Florida. ....
> .


I asked this a while back we had a chance to go to FL for work, certain counties yes some no.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

cdpainting said:


> I asked this a while back we had a chance to go to FL for work, certain counties yes some no.


That is correct, and mostly 'no'. And in the counties that do, the residents pay more for that service, for the privilege of having their hand held.

As an added note, South Florida, while I'm sure is not alone, is loaded with krappy built homes constructed by 'licensed builders'. So everyone can spare me the 'quality control' benefit of 'licensing'.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> I asked this a while back we had a chance to go to FL for work, certain counties yes some no.


Ill have to look more into it....id like to bid there also but guys here kinda discouraged me with all the licensing requirements. .....


----------



## Marrone72 (Oct 12, 2013)

RH said:


> To become a painting contractor in Oregon you need at least sixteen hours of *documented training* time to even be able to take the test, which covers:
> 
> *role of the Oregon CCB (Construction Contractors Board)
> *employee rights and employer requirements
> ...


License doesn't mean skillful, experienced painter.
If passing tests was the key to being a qualified painting contractor, I believe College Pro Painters would be leading the pack.


----------



## Marrone72 (Oct 12, 2013)

Oden said:


> I don't call anyone a scab. Never use the word. Never rat on anyone for any reason either. I tend to my own business. What anyone else does or is, is of no concern to me.


My statement was generalized. Not pointing the finger to any one person. :no:


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

kerk said:


> That is correct, and mostly 'no'. And in the counties that do, the residents pay more for that service, for the privilege of having their hand held.
> 
> As an added note, South Florida, while I'm sure is not alone, is loaded with krappy built homes constructed by 'licensed builders'. So everyone can spare me the 'quality control' benefit of 'licensing'.


Not having measurable qualifications to control the speed of progress, is like _not _having a speedometer on a car. Too many people would take the liberty of driving recklessly to reach their destination as do contractors who circumvent basic requirements to reach their goals. It's not about government holding everyones hand, as much as it is about policing the idiots who compete to be the first at everything at the expense of those with integrity.

To put in terms that a grade schooler can understand, you don't graduate to the next level of education without showing some proficiency at the level you're in. These are measurable qualifications that give credibility to students, employees, and business owners alike.

I don't want to live in a world where a blowhard's word is good enough.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

And frankly, if someone who claims to be a business person can't fork over the nominal fee for licencing, or other requirement, they shouldn't be in business.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

CApainter said:


> And frankly, if someone who claims to be a business person can't fork over the nominal fee for licencing, or other requirement, they shouldn't be in business.


But some of the requirements aren't realistic. ...some one said like $800 in books to study from....big fees....licenses in every different county....5 year residency.....pretty sure it was Florida too....


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> Ill have to look more into it....id like to bid there also but guys here kinda discouraged me with all the licensing requirements. .....


Just check the county laws before bidding.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> But some of the requirements aren't realistic. ...some one said like $800 in books to study from....big fees....licenses in every different county....5 year residency.....pretty sure it was Florida too....


I'm not a proprieter. I know the game. the liscence or whatever peice of paper it is you need to bid and take on certain work. Well. The harder it is to get the less people will get it. The people that jump through all the hoops to get it have less competition to deal with on the work that u need that peice of paper to bid on. Less competition equals more money. Supply and demand drives pricing.

smart businessmen use regulations to their advantage. They complain about all the requirements and fees and whatnots---.all the way to the bank they complain.


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> That get under my skin these unlicensed painters under bidding us. I also report painters doing lead wrong.


How does this help you?

I will answer for you. It doesn't. 

I swear. If I have to hear another painter whine and cry about competing with low ball hacks, I'm going to pull my hair out.

THEY ARE NOT YOUR COMPETITION! STOP WORRYING ABOUT THEM!

WORRY ABOUT YOUR SELF!


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Oden said:


> I'm not a proprieter. I know the game. the liscence or whatever peice of paper it is you need to bid and take on certain work. Well. The harder it is to get the less people will get it. The people that jump through all the hoops to get it have less competition to deal with on the work that u need that peice of paper to bid on. Less competition equals more money. Supply and demand drives pricing.
> 
> smart businessmen use regulations to their advantage. They complain about all the requirements and fees and whatnots---.all the way to the bank they complain.


Ill look into it......or talk to my buddy in Florida. ...


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

epretot said:


> How does this help you?
> 
> I will answer for you. It doesn't.
> 
> ...


It bugs the crap out of me when an unlicensed RRP painters under bids us by alot and the HO asks us why we are so much higher. I tell them we are licensed and the unlicensed ones are driving the prices down. RRp is not cheap to do, I don't know if you even deal with lead or pass on those types of jobs. We have no choice there are tons of homes around here covered in lead paint. Plus an unlicensed guy working down the strret causes some kid to get lead poisoning and we do it right the neighbor looks at us and blame us. Simple follow the rules.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> It bugs the crap out of me when an unlicensed RRP painters under bids us by alot and the HO asks us why we are so much higher. I tell them we are licensed and the unlicensed ones are driving the prices down. RRp is not cheap to do, I don't know if you even deal with lead or pass on those types of jobs. We have no choice there are tons of homes around here covered in lead paint. Plus an unlicensed guy working down the strret causes some kid to get lead poisoning and we do it right the neighbor looks at us and blame us. Simple follow the rules.


That happens a lot? kids getting lead poisoned cause of the painter working down the street and you getting blamed? LOL

c'mon now. You want to drop dimes then drop dimes. Don't insult our intelligence though cause that is a absurd scenario.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

If your doing it right with all the protection and the unlicensed company doesn't mention lead paint who do you think would get the blame?


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Where I live around 1 out of every 10 home contain lead paint. It could happen. I never once said it does or did happen to us. maybe you need to learn to read a little better.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> If your doing it right with all the protection and the unlicensed company doesn't mention lead paint who do you think would get the blame?


nothing happened so there is no blame get. I was scraping and sanding old clapboards with lead paint on em 20 some years ago. It's not a easey trick to get lead poisoning. No kid across the way is gonna get a case of lead poisoning unless his dear old mom is putting the chips into his food for him. it's just not happening.

I mean I get it that u have the liscence and you want to use that liscence to ur advantage and cut out the competition from those without a liscence. So say that if you must bring it up. Say you drop dimes to reduce ur competition. No reason IMO to put forth some far fetched scenario where these uncertified guys are killing the kids and ur getting blamed is all.

i


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We know this but the average HO doesn't. They would blame who ever they can.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

RH said:


> To become a painting contractor in Oregon you need at least sixteen hours of documented training time to even be able to take the test, which covers:
> 
> *role of the Oregon CCB (Construction Contractors Board)
> *employee rights and employer requirements
> ...





Marrone72 said:


> License doesn't mean skillful, experienced painter.
> If passing tests was the key to being a qualified painting contractor, I believe College Pro Painters would be leading the pack.


Just to clarify, I was simply listing what the state of Oregon requires. Nothing more.


----------



## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> We know this but the average HO doesn't. They would blame who ever they can.


Thank you.

But hey as a matter of the PT and the business angle.- you r IMO a example of a businessman using burdosome regulations and liscensing requirements to ur advantage. You jumped the hoops and got the peice of paper and ur using it to get into less competitive bidding situations. Myself I'd not turn anyone in. just against my grain. I'm not there but really I doubt you benifit from the practice either.

I'd think potential customers who have to have a certified lead contractor and the ones that don't care are two entirely different markets. And u have access to the less competitive/more lucrative market and those without that peice of paper do not.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Not having measurable qualifications to control the speed of progress, is like _not _having a speedometer on a car. Too many people would take the liberty of driving recklessly to reach their destination as do contractors who circumvent basic requirements to reach their goals. It's not about government holding everyones hand, as much as it is about policing the idiots who compete to be the first at everything at the expense of those with integrity.
> 
> To put in terms that a grade schooler can understand, you don't graduate to the next level of education without showing some proficiency at the level you're in. These are measurable qualifications that give credibility to students, employees, and business owners alike.
> 
> I don't want to live in a world where a blowhard's word is good enough.


Understood, but it doesn't alter my example. And again, spare me the 'quality control' argument pertaining to licensing.

And BTW, that 'blowhard' can just as easily be a 'government official'. No 'good ole boy' fraternity there? 

So, what's the difference 'who' you trust?


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> Thats not what I've heard from Aaron and repaint Florida. ....
> .


Richmond ... let me see if i can help to clear up Florida painting license

NO state lic
county by county only
some county will honor other county lic
Orange county where i am i only a business tax -easy base on number of workers from $30 up
most coastal counties are harder - test - background ect mostly from storms and then scams

some counties will enforce it more than others

any questions let me know i'll see if i can help

now my view on license vs unlicensed 
i am too busy painting & enjoying life to worry about what other painters are doing. i get 3 - 4 calls a month to fix / finish work because the ho hired the wrong "painter"

imo it's the ho fault because they were trying to be cheap or didn't do their homework checking out who they hired

being as i was raised old school by 1% er bikers in the 70's & 80's i would never snitch :no:


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

kerk said:


> Understood, but it doesn't alter my example. And again, spare me the 'quality control' argument pertaining to licensing.
> 
> And BTW, that 'blowhard' can just as easily be a 'government official'. No 'good ole boy' fraternity there?
> 
> So, what's the difference 'who' you trust?


It's really not about quality control as much as it is about accountability. A person who assumes responsibilty for something without authenticity, is susceptible to unaccountability. To condone this, is to put people at risk.

I don't want to live in a world where trusting a blowhard is as good as his word.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Repaint Florida said:


> Richmond ... let me see if i can help to clear up Florida painting license
> 
> NO state lic
> county by county only
> ...


Raised by 1% ers thats cool man...lol...

I had Florida as one of my states in my bid program......and when I heard about all the licensing ...I kinda stopped even looking and changed it to Ohio....but anyways im targeting big jobs...mostly Wal-Mart's right now because no other big boxes are really building.....retirement homes...new apartments/condos...gyms...hotels....anything with decent square footage...I have to make it worth my travel ya know......I haven't had any luck with the hotels either......its usually already awarded to a gc......and they typically have a painter they use....im just assuming this........retail seems to be easier to find just smaller jobs.....

But I want to bid consistently so the licensing in Florida may not allow that....


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Well, I'm done polishing the framed credentials on my office wall. Journeyman card in wallet (check). Man lift operator card (check). CPR card (check). Starbucks card (check). OK, later Folks! I'll visit you when I get home!


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Well, I'm done polishing the framed credentials on my office wall. Journeyman card in wallet (check). Man lift operator card (check). CPR card (check). Starbucks card (check). OK, later Folks! I'll visit you when I get home!


No Subway card? :blink:


----------



## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

i am shocked CA i pictured you with a boy scout card at least , maybe even webelos scout


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Well, I'm done polishing the framed credentials on my office wall. Journeyman card in wallet (check). Man lift operator card (check). CPR card (check). Starbucks card (check). OK, later Folks! I'll visit you when I get home!


Starbucks card... Having that'll get your man card revoked. Get some gas station .89cent mud and man up some.  :jester:


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Starbucks card... Having that'll get your man card revoked. Get some gas station .89cent mud and man up some.  :jester:


Its San Francisco. Its more important than a drivers license:whistling2:


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Its San Francisco. Its more important than a drivers license:whistling2:


Not that there's anything wrong with that. :roll eyes:


----------



## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm not lead certified and I don't want to b I don't do those jobs I tell the home owner up front when I know the age of the home , I recommend some one who is its just not my thing right now , but on the flip side I see a lot of guys in my area who don't do it right and just start grinding and painting . I see how this can drive some body crazy like CD painting .


----------



## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> It bugs the crap out of me when an unlicensed RRP painters under bids us by alot and the HO asks us why we are so much higher. I tell them we are licensed and the unlicensed ones are driving the prices down. RRp is not cheap to do, I don't know if you even deal with lead or pass on those types of jobs. We have no choice there are tons of homes around here covered in lead paint. Plus an unlicensed guy working down the strret causes some kid to get lead poisoning and we do it right the neighbor looks at us and blame us. Simple follow the rules.


So, you are worried about a child being lead poisoned from a job other than yours and it being pinned on you?

That's completely irrational. 

This is not justification for "reporting" people to the authorities. In fact, it is likely if one of these contractors discover you did it, they will return the favor. 

You might be squeaky clean in your business practices, but I guarantee you will go through great pains proving it to all the respective agencies that regulate us. 

It's just as easy for them to report you to the IRS, state tax department, OHSA, etc. How you conduct YOUR BUSINESS it what separates you from the competition.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Starbucks card... Having that'll get your man card revoked. Get some gas station .89cent mud and man up some.  :jester:


It's California, Rbriggs. There a guy can get his nails done and be all metro-sexual, and _still_ keep his man card.:jester:

Oh and I agree, the lowball hacks are _not_ my competition.


----------



## Joseph (Aug 26, 2013)

My personal opinion is that their are 2 types of customers
#1 The kind that are willing to pay more money for a good painting company
#2 The kind that want to bargain down to the cheapest bid

I don't care if the unlicensed painters take the lowest bid away because I know that they are not going to make any money and I know that I can only make a profit from a percentage of the quotes I give out. I would rather do nothing than under bid myself so let the customers that want a bargain have the crappy painters.

That's my opinion.

http://www.calgarypropainting.com


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> No Subway card? :blink:


I'm not into lettuce flavored bread. 



Repaint Florida said:


> i am shocked CA i pictured you with a boy scout card at least , maybe even webelos scout


No Scout card, but I do have a CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) card!



Rbriggs82 said:


> Starbucks card... Having that'll get your man card revoked. Get some gas station .89cent mud and man up some.  :jester:


 I honed my brown teeth on 711 coffee, but since the acid wrecked havoc on my guts, I no longer stand in line with the other transients for the watered down crude and stale donuts. 



Bender said:


> Its San Francisco. Its more important than a drivers license:whistling2:


 I could lie and claim yuppie sophistication, but it was a gift. I do like the americanos though!


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

My question is if every painter out there was licensed and you were still under bid what would you blame it on then?


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

epretot said:


> So, you are worried about a child being lead poisoned from a job other than yours and it being pinned on you?
> 
> That's completely irrational.
> 
> ...


No because we have the lead inspector come to OUR job site and make sure every thing is how it should be. We are one of 3 companies that call him for every lead job.
They can call all those others we are all up to date on comp, taxes and safety. We had a company call osha on us and you know what they found nothing wrong at all. In fact I hold safety meetings every morning (when we do hire hep) and have recently found a place we can take safety practice course once a week and both OSHA and comp recognize them.
Hell I have stopped at sites and taken pictures and video of people doing it wrong. I don't care. in the long run it costs us all either money or regulations. With all the lead homes around here the inspectors already have a field day. They prefer a legit contractor calling them to report it.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Toolnut said:


> My question is if every painter out there was licensed and you were still under bid what would you blame it on then?


Now that's a good question!


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> It's California, Rbriggs. There a guy can get his nails done and be all metro-sexual, and _still_ keep his man card.


This is true, but the man card here, also allows entry into other areas.

I hope that wasn't too religious.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

And yes I highly doubt our work will get a kid down the street sick but as the HO they will see we have all the barriers, tarps and protection set up, guess what because we do it right this could happen. HO's don't know any better if it was from their home or down the street.


----------



## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Toolnut said:


> My question is if every painter out there was licensed and you were still under bid what would you blame it on then?


If your asking me we have lost out on many bids to other licensed painters. I don't care about that. We have also taken jobs from them.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Toolnut said:


> My question is if every painter out there was licensed and you were still under bid what would you blame it on then?


Yeah, thats like bragging "We never get underbid!"
:blink:


----------



## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Exactly and some of the ones you won were probably from unlicensed guys. Maybe I should have worded it different. If nobody was required to have a license would you paint any differently. I have lived in 2 areas where there were no license. And in both of them the same thing happened, if you were a good and fair painter you were booked up. If you were a bad painter and tried to rip people off you weren't around long. I feel a license is not a guarantee of quality work.
To the ones that feel the need to drop a dime, are you going to turn in everyone who does a lousy job including the ones that have their little piece of paper? Why not?


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Toolnut said:


> Exactly and some of the ones you won were probably from unlicensed guys. Maybe I should have worded it different. If nobody was required to have a license would you paint any differently. I have lived in 2 areas where there were no license. And in both of them the same thing happened, if you were a good and fair painter you were booked up. If you were a bad painter and tried to rip people off you weren't around long. I feel a license is not a guarantee of quality work.
> To the ones that feel the need to drop a dime, are you going to turn in everyone who does a lousy job including the ones that have their little piece of paper? Why not?


That's it right there. No license is required for painting contractors here.
If one was required, I'd have one....just like I have insurance and pay taxes now. 
But it wouldn't change the way I do the jobs. The quality of the work is what makes my reputation and my reputation is what keeps the jobs coming in.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> That's it right there. No license is required for painting contractors here.
> If one was required, I'd have one....just like I have insurance and pay taxes now.
> But it wouldn't change the way I do the jobs. The quality of the work is what makes my reputation and my reputation is what keeps the jobs coming in.


Sooo we can all agree a painting license really doesnt make you a better painter...

Its just another government conspiracy to make money off hard working people who could probably spend the money else where on something more important. ...and actually make them a better contractor...


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Sooo we can all agree a painting license really doesnt make you a better painter...
> 
> Its just another government conspiracy to make money off hard working people who could probably spend the money else where on something more important. ...and actually make them a better contractor...


Unbelievable! People will pay significant amounts of money for overpriced monthly "smart" phone service charges, so they can surf internet forums while on the toilet. Pay outrageous cable and movie subscription fees, so they can entertain themselves while shoving cookies down their gullet. And, buy expensive oversized rims for ridiculously huge and useless vehicles. But God forbid you fork over a couple hundred dollars for an annual license fee to operate a business legitimately and lend some credibility to the dog and pony show they call a business.


----------



## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Unbelievable! People will pay significant amounts of money for overpriced monthly "smart" phone service charges, so they can surf internet forums while on the toilet. Pay outrageous cable and movie service fees, so they can entertain themselves while shoving cookies down their gullet. And, buy oversized rims for ridiculously huge and useless vehicles. But God forbid you fork over a couple hundred dollars for an annual license fee to operate a business legitimately and lend some credibility to the dog and pony show they call a business.


I give up....lol....I really thought we were all on the same page here....especially considering im not the only one saying it....


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> I give up....lol....I really thought we were all on the same page here....especially considering im not the only one saying it....


There has to be at least one dissenter to maintain PT's integrity.


----------



## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

seriously what should it matter to us... like lets take a proactive approach. what can we do to stop it ? nothing at all, as brian c said "its world wide problem". the only thing we can do as business owners is STOP making excuses about how someone else got the better of us whether it be because of this reason or that reason IT DONT MATTER! you obviously werent the best choice in the mind of the home owner.. bottom line ! just because someone else is cheaper or doesnt always mean they went with them because they were cheaper, its because the home owner believed they were the best choice at the time.. YOU FAILED TO SHOW THE HOME OWNER THAT YOUR PRODUCT,COMPANY AND YOU were the best thing since sliced bread.

Stop bitching about the under bidding hack, the economy, the paint manufacture, licensing issues, insurance etc . spend your time coming up with a tactic or game plan on how you will blow this problem out of the water, then the underbidding hack wont even matter because in your eyes he wont even exist. 

does pond scum matter to an eagle?


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> I give up....lol....I really thought we were all on the same page here....especially considering im not the only one saying it....


 
I don't think most of us are in the same book as you are:laughing:


----------



## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

As a free market kinda guy I'm not a big fan of licensing. Weeding out good and bad painters isn't the governments job, the market will ultimately decide who will stay in business and who won't.


----------



## JNW-Painting (Jan 6, 2014)

I am new to the painting business with past experience being rental unit painting and small side projects. I lost my regular job last year and didn't know what to do. A friend suggested that I start a painting business. I am trying hard to be good at this because I enjoy doing it way better than what I did before. I am curious though that it seems like when I get into these homes that people want a whole house painted wood trim doors walls for one person to do it all is a lot. What kinda schedules do you guys go by? I mean let's just say 1000 square foot home how long would it take to do walls 12 doors closets and all the wood trim. The walks are beat do you have to thin coat everything. If they don't want to pay for the right way what do you do?


----------



## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

JNW-Painting said:


> I am new to the painting business with past experience being rental unit painting and small side projects. I lost my regular job last year and didn't know what to do. A friend suggested that I start a painting business. I am trying hard to be good at this because I enjoy doing it way better than what I did before. I am curious though that it seems like when I get into these homes that people want a whole house painted wood trim doors walls for one person to do it all is a lot. What kinda schedules do you guys go by? I mean let's just say 1000 square foot home how long would it take to do walls 12 doors closets and all the wood trim. The walks are beat do you have to thin coat everything. If they don't want to pay for the right way what do you do?


I've been painting since I was 9 years old, so how long it takes me won't help you. It's just something you'll learn. I still screw up (badly) from time to time in my estimates though. But I haven't been doing that for nearly as long.

As far as doing things the right way, I have certain standards I won't drop below. That doesn't mean I have to do a full restoration on everything I do (far from it). But, I will always caulk and fill holes as appropriate, clean/dust, etc. on interiors, and I will always power wash, scrape loose paint, knock off splintered wood, etc. on exteriors. Things like that. 

I have a certain expectation for what is required, at minimum, for me to be comfortable putting my name on a job and I bid everything with that (at minimum) in mind.


----------



## TTpainting (Sep 19, 2013)

Its good to be licensed and insured contractors because people mostly prefer to use services of such painting contractors as they firslty sign an agreement with their customers and hence fulfill all their requirements as described in the agreement.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TTpainting said:


> Its good to be licensed and insured contractors because people mostly prefer to use services of such painting contractors as they firslty sign an agreement with their customers and hence fulfill all their requirements as described in the agreement.


Say What?


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> Say What?


 
you are more discrete than I am


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

In WA state you are supposed to be licensed to be a contractor. Getting a license is only $100 a year or so. But in order to get a license you have to have a bond $6000/12,000 depending on specialty or general contractor. And you have to have insurance. A one man shop might pay $700-1000 a year, and it goes up with # of employees and exposure. And workmans comp if you have employees. Personally I think a company that is spraying paint, hucking ladders around a house, having guys run up and down the side of a house etc should have insurance and all that stuff. It cuts both ways, you have to put up a bond in order to have something to go after in case you are a flake, but you also have to be licensed in order to file a lien against a HO if they flake out. That's the readers digest version anyways. 

Go Hawks!


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

glennb said:


> seriously what should it matter to us... like lets take a proactive approach. what can we do to stop it ? nothing at all, as brian c said "its world wide problem". the only thing we can do as business owners is STOP making excuses about how someone else got the better of us whether it be because of this reason or that reason IT DONT MATTER! you obviously werent the best choice in the mind of the home owner.. bottom line ! just because someone else is cheaper or doesnt always mean they went with them because they were cheaper, its because the home owner believed they were the best choice at the time.. YOU FAILED TO SHOW THE HOME OWNER THAT YOUR PRODUCT,COMPANY AND YOU were the best thing since sliced bread.
> 
> Stop bitching about the under bidding hack, the economy, the paint manufacture, licensing issues, insurance etc . spend your time coming up with a tactic or game plan on how you will blow this problem out of the water, then the underbidding hack wont even matter because in your eyes he wont even exist.
> 
> does pond scum matter to an eagle?


This eagle would prefer that teachers (i.e. gummamint employees paid by my taxes) pay taxes on income they earn during the summer while painting.

Play by the rules or stay off the field.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

They are not my rules....so I wont play by them.


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

high fibre said:


> They are not my rules....so I wont play by them.


Then you'd better stay off the field or the IRS may be paying you a visit courtesy of the eagle.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> In WA state you are supposed to be licensed to be a contractor. Getting a license is only $100 a year or so. But in order to get a license you have to have a bond $6000/12,000 depending on specialty or general contractor. And you have to have insurance. A one man shop might pay $700-1000 a year, and it goes up with # of employees and exposure. And workmans comp if you have employees. Personally I think a company that is spraying paint, hucking ladders around a house, having guys run up and down the side of a house etc should have insurance and all that stuff. It cuts both ways, you have to put up a bond in order to have something to go after in case you are a flake, but you also have to be licensed in order to file a lien against a HO if they flake out. That's the readers digest version anyways.
> 
> Go Hawks!


I'll admit that one of the things that I did like about the WA system, in essence, you could post the bond yourself. You could establish an "assignable account" in a WA bank or CU and collect the interest annually, instead of paying for the bond. In the days of 8% interest on CDs, that was a pretty good deal. IIRC, a year after we dropped our WA ticket, we got the full amount back.


----------



## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

Damn guvment regulations .. I could be hireling those life's down the street pay em 2. O0 bucks an hour 12 hrs a day and dump all the solvent in a dirt hole.


----------



## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

Licensing does not a great painter make. Licensing is meant as protection for the HO/client. 

We operate in a tri-state area, Maryland, Virginian and Washington DC. Each state requires contractors that do any kind of improvements to homes to be licensed Home Improvement Contractors.

In Maryland a dissatisfied homeowner can appeal to the Maryland Board of Licensing when they feel that a contractor has not fulfilled their contract. The homeowner can also seek restitution for a portion of the work not completed. That restitution is paid for by this Board. The Board will then seek reimbursement from the contractor. So, by being licensed in MD you are actually providing the client some piece of mind and protection.

That being said and to reiterate what has already been said we would never play policeman or gestapo and turn in any unlicensed contractor. The client that hires that guy in not our customer. They didn't hire him because he was unlicensed, they hired him because he was price was cheaper than ours. Don't waste another minute on this project that you lost. Move on and seek out those clients that value your service.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Roamer said:


> Licensing does not a great painter make. Licensing is meant as protection for the HO/client.
> 
> We operate in a tri-state area, Maryland, Virginian and Washington DC. Each state requires contractors that do any kind of improvements to homes to be licensed Home Improvement Contractors.
> 
> ...


as you already know, it's not all that cheap to get and maintain said license


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Roamer said:


> Licensing does not a great painter make. Licensing is meant as protection for the HO/client.
> 
> We operate in a tri-state area, Maryland, Virginian and Washington DC. Each state requires contractors that do any kind of improvements to homes to be licensed Home Improvement Contractors.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

The fellow not paying his taxes is another story all together.

For me, it's not about missed opportunities but both contractor and client not contributing to the same society we all live in and benefit from.

It's bad for the hoe, bad for the John, and bad for society in general.


----------



## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

why not just inform the Home owner about the reasons why they would most likley get cheaper bids when you give your presentation.??


----------



## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

There is reason to bitch when you are surrounded by and being constantly undermined by cheaters. In this competetive field, people have reason to demand from the rule makers that they enforce those rules that WE HAVE TO PAY FOR. By ignoring the problem, it only gets worse. When we shell out thousands in fees to be compliant, its a real stick in the eye to know that we are being held back by cheaters abd cheapskates. Don't you realize that these guys drive the standards down across the board? The general public sees price, and when you see long time customers move to the low bid because this economy stinks, then it does get under your skin. Our state actually has a task force that inspects for worker classification and compliance, but they're lazy. And they only go after the big companies, doing big high end jobs. They NEED to look further, and start weeding out the cheats and hacks in our trade. IT IS MOST CERTAINLY THEIR JOB. If everyone was honest, we wouldn't need regulations and rule enforcement.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Roamer said:


> Licensing does not a great painter make. Licensing is meant as protection for the HO/client.
> 
> We operate in a tri-state area, Maryland, Virginian and Washington DC. Each state requires contractors that do any kind of improvements to homes to be licensed Home Improvement Contractors.
> 
> ...


You be surprised how much work those kinds of guys take. There's plenty of work I would like to have right ow being done by these kinds of contractors both residential and commercial. When there isn't much to move on to it can get under your skin. I've lost allot of good work very profitable work to unlicensed and illegals it stinks . I hear about moving on but depending on your market much easier said than done.


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

What do you think about painters who are in the process of starting their own business but work for someone else? Someone sees me in painters pants and asks if I'm a painter and if I could paint this or that. To me it's a way to start a customer base and bank money for big initial business purchases. I don't charge less than what my boss would charge so I'm not undercutting anyone.

I'm currently studying for the exam. Should I wait until I have all the i's and t's squared up? My boss encouraged me to take opportunities that will help me build my business when I brought it up to him. I just haven't thought about it from the perspectives given here.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

804 Paint said:


> What do you think about painters who are in the process of starting their own business but work for someone else? Someone sees me in painters pants and asks if I'm a painter and if I could paint this or that. To me it's a way to start a customer base and bank money for big initial business purchases. I don't charge less than what my boss would charge so I'm not undercutting anyone.
> 
> I'm currently studying for the exam. Should I wait until I have all the i's and t's squared up? My boss encouraged me to take opportunities that will help me build my business when I brought it up to him. I just haven't thought about it from the perspectives given here.


Assuming you would really end up charging what your boss does you might still be undercutting others if your boss tends to lowball jobs.

Also, you don't say where you are located. I personally would not recommend that anyone ever begin work without being licensed, and never without insurance. But depending on where you are, the requirements and enforcement of them can vary considerably. I would not recommend working without a license in Oregon.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> What do you think about painters who are in the process of starting their own business but work for someone else? Someone sees me in painters pants and asks if I'm a painter and if I could paint this or that. To me it's a way to start a customer base and bank money for big initial business purchases. I don't charge less than what my boss would charge so I'm not undercutting anyone.
> 
> I'm currently studying for the exam. Should I wait until I have all the i's and t's squared up? My boss encouraged me to take opportunities that will help me build my business when I brought it up to him. I just haven't thought about it from the perspectives given here.


OK, here's the advice I would give you, but keep in mind, I'm just a scrappy little employee with too many years of exposure to solvents.

First, obey your current employer one hundred percent unless he's directing you to work unsafely for what ever reason. Second, don't keep mentioning to him how excited you are to go off on your own and essentially become one of his competitors. I think there's a section somewhere in a business ethics book that deals with that subject.

Thirdly, refer to item one, pass your test, save some money, then give two weeks notice without lighting a match to the bridge you're crossing.

Addendum: Schedule your customers for the weekend with as little fan fare as possible. Your boss doesn't need to know who you're doing work for, but try to avoid working for _his _customers.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Get used to it.


----------



## danpaints (Feb 16, 2012)

Everyone can paint. That's one of the problems. BB store commercials are empowering consumers to be painters. HGTV has shows about it. There are house flipping shows where they entrust the paint brush to the home owners hand. Painting has been demystified, marginalized, and oversimplified in the last 10 years. 

Education, customer targeting, reputation, diligence, and efficiency are a few keys to competing. 

I don't see a slow down in this trend. I see an acceleration. The marketing to homeowners is heavy. It oversimplifies the art and craft of painting, that takes years to develop, for the sake of selling a product.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

danpaints said:


> Everyone can paint. That's one of the problems. BB store commercials are empowering consumers to be painters. HGTV has shows about it. There are house flipping shows where they entrust the paint brush to the home owners hand. Painting has been demystified, marginalized, and oversimplified in the last 10 years.
> 
> Education, customer targeting, reputation, diligence, and efficiency are a few keys to competing.
> 
> I don't see a slow down in this trend. I see an acceleration. The marketing to homeowners is heavy. It oversimplifies the art and craft of painting, that takes years to develop, for the sake of selling a product.


Please send all those guys who can paint my way! Most I've seen cant paint worth a sh#t .


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Please send all those guys who can paint my way! Most I've seen cant paint worth a sh#t .


Ok Nick. Mr. Walsh is leaving first thing in the morning.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Ok Nick. Mr. Walsh is leaving first thing in the morning.


I'll be waiting!


----------



## danpaints (Feb 16, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I'll be waiting!


Today, a homeowner came home with sponge roller, 1-2-3 and mid grade bher semi and planned to paint all the trim in her house once I was done with the walls... 3000 sqft...doors are a dover white semi and she planned on rolling out and cutting in over sprayed gloss peanut stained trim with a bright white. I talked to her about the process to take. Sand...prime...caulk. prime...paint... two...

I ended up getting the job via being helpful and describing the process and rationale of the process. She thought YouTube and big box was so helpful. She was empowered until she realized the detail and entail that was required. Painting has been oversimplified my friends. By those who gain by selling product. They fail to express the pitfalls of the process.

Educate and empower your customers and they will reward you with work. 

I said I would help her if she wanted to learn... she declined. Who loves that? We do. I love the craft. Because that is its right place at the end of the day. We are craftsmen. 
Never forget that.

Dan


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

danpaints said:


> Today, a homeowner came home with sponge roller, 1-2-3 and mid grade bher semi and planned to paint all the trim in her house once I was done with the walls... 3000 sqft...doors are a dover white semi and she planned on rolling out and cutting in over sprayed gloss peanut stained trim with a bright white. I talked to her about the process to take. Sand...prime...caulk. prime...paint... two...
> 
> I ended up getting the job via being helpful and describing the process and rationale of the process. She thought YouTube and big box was so helpful. She was empowered until she realized the detail and entail that was required. Painting has been oversimplified my friends. By those who gain by selling product. They fail to express the pitfalls of the process.
> 
> ...


This is why I think it helps to have clean and straight teeth, and none missing, because it helps to offset the first impression that a homeowner has of a practically transient painter. Once they see the white teeth, pre judgments begin to fade, and rational dialogue begins to be established, allowing the customer to see the painting contractor in a professional perspective. More on this topic will be in included in my upcoming book titled, "Sink Your Teeth Into a Sale, But Don't Bite Off More Then You Can Chew" Shoester publishing.


----------



## danpaints (Feb 16, 2012)

CApainter said:


> This is why I think it helps to have clean and straight teeth, and none missing, because it helps to offset the first impression that a homeowner has of a practically transient painter. Once they see the white teeth, pre judgments begin to fade, and rational dialogue begins to be established, allowing the customer to see the painting contractor in a professional perspective. More on this topic will be in included in my upcoming book titled, "Sink Your Teeth Into a Sale, But Don't Bite Off More Then You Can Chew" Shoester publishing.[/QUOTe
> 
> False teeth... she had no clue.


----------



## danpaints (Feb 16, 2012)

On a serious note. We do have to take our craft back. It is not for the weary or faint of heart. Most novices can't do it in a weekend properly. Despite the dehazzardization of material specs (for lack of a better word) painting is significantly technical. Preparation is key and perspiring. It is detailed and poo-pooed by manufacturers advertising engine.

Dan


----------



## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> This is why I think it helps to have clean and straight teeth, and none missing, because it helps to offset the first impression that a homeowner has of a practically *transient painter*. Once they see the white teeth, pre judgments begin to fade, and rational dialogue begins to be established, allowing the customer to see the painting contractor in a professional perspective. More on this topic will be in included in my upcoming book titled, "Sink Your Teeth Into a Sale, But Don't Bite Off More Then You Can Chew" Shoester publishing.


Oddly enough, that is how the craft started in this area. 
Painters would travel with their tools and tints, plying their services.
Quite often, they would stay in or at the home they were working on.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i would suggest that no one get licensed. its a TAX,,,and a way to keep the small guy down, if you think thats dandy, then go ahead,,,no skin off my nose. i say FIGHT THE POWER. put food on your table, get your kids some cool stuff,,,get yourself some nice stuff. this isnt rocket science or brain surgery. its easy to talk about how tricky painting is and how not just anyone can do it,,,,i say GET OVER YOURSELVES,,,,you are on level with a cleaning crew,,,go ahead and puff up your ego,,it feels better i know. but you are basically a glorified janitor,,,get used to that. it feels good when you puff up your ego,,i understand. ive done it. things will go much smoother and you wont look like a buffoon when you let that ego down and get to serving peoiple.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

there are huge crews of retarded hillbillies and illegal mexicans painting houses daily,,,and doing a fine job of it. true story. get over yourselves.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

around here,,,any painter with a license isnt worth a damn.
theyd typically be a franchise type outfit that requires it,,,,and they fold up after a year or two. the best of the best where im at are under the radar, and have been for decades.


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

CApainter said:


> This is why I think it helps to have clean and straight teeth, and none missing, because it helps to offset the first impression that a homeowner has of a practically transient painter. Once they see the white teeth, pre judgments begin to fade, and rational dialogue begins to be established, allowing the customer to see the painting contractor in a professional perspective. More on this topic will be in included in my upcoming book titled, "Sink Your Teeth Into a Sale, But Don't Bite Off More Then You Can Chew" Shoester publishing.


So your actually saying clean whites!


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

floss daily for nice jobs.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

dont smell like an ash tray.


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

high fibre said:


> around here,,,any painter with a license isnt worth a damn.
> theyd typically be a franchise type outfit that requires it,,,,and they fold up after a year or two. the best of the best where im at are under the radar, and have been for decades.




You should put you web site in your link so this great info has a chance to go more public


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

high fibre said:


> around here,,,any painter with a license isnt worth a damn.
> theyd typically be a franchise type outfit that requires it,,,,and they fold up after a year or two. the best of the best where im at are under the radar, and have been for decades.


So, as a marketing tool, do you make sure your potential customers know you aren't licensed?


----------



## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

high fibre said:


> i would suggest that no one get licensed. its a TAX,,,and a way to keep the small guy down, if you think thats dandy, then go ahead,,,no skin off my nose. i say FIGHT THE POWER. put food on your table, get your kids some cool stuff,,,get yourself some nice stuff. this isnt rocket science or brain surgery. its easy to talk about how tricky painting is and how not just anyone can do it,,,,i say GET OVER YOURSELVES,,,,you are on level with a cleaning crew,,,go ahead and puff up your ego,,it feels better i know. but you are basically a glorified janitor,,,get used to that. it feels good when you puff up your ego,,i understand. ive done it. things will go much smoother and you wont look like a buffoon when you let that ego down and get to serving peoiple.


I definitely wouldn't try to slip my entire enterprise under uncle sams dirty little nose, However you better believe if I get a small cash job here and there, they never existed as far as he's concerned. If ever we get to a point where our tax code actually taxes every single person the exact same percentage no matter their place in society I'd feel more obligated. Beleive me, I'm payin "My Fair Share". But when you get into quadruple digits I'd think twice on tuckin that under the mattress.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

That's not a bad idea.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I pay a ton of income tax....I just don't like paying all of the other taxes by other names.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I've never hid that fact from any customer....they don't typically care unless they are from the city. Then I school them and they love it.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Look at every hack licensed painter in your area....it's a joke.


----------



## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

high fibre said:


> Look at every hack licensed painter in your area....it's a joke.


What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't think that problem exists as much here. After being on PT this long I've gotten the impression that there do seem to be locations and parts of the country where this is more of an issue than in others. 

Most outfits around here have a pretty high degree of skill, knowledge, and professionalism.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> What the hell are you talking about?


Point proven. Anyone can paint.


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

high fibre said:


> Point proven. Anyone can paint.


 
what does that have to do with running a paint buisness:2guns:


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

high fibre said:


> floss daily for nice jobs.


Floss and gloss!


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

high fibre said:


> dont smell like an ash tray.


Ash tray or paint tray!:whistling2:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

Running a painting business.....That's not very hard either...As I'd mentioned earlier. .there's a bunch of retarded hillbillies and illegal mexicans doing a fine job out there daily!


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

high fibre said:


> Running a painting business.....That's not very hard either...As I'd mentioned earlier. .there's a bunch of retarded hillbillies and illegal mexicans doing a fine job out there daily!


 

you MUST mean mentally challenged, right?:laughing:


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

high fibre said:


> Running a painting business.....That's not very hard either...As I'd mentioned earlier. .there's a bunch of retarded hillbillies and illegal mexicans doing a fine job out there daily!


 
right on


----------



## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

RH said:


> So, as a marketing tool, do you make sure your potential customers know you aren't licensed?


Don't fall for the troll Dan!!!!


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

high fibre, did you read all of Robert Ringer's books (Looking Out For #1, for example) back in the day? 

Just curious, no slight intended.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Svorek is IN THE HOUSE! :thumbup:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

I figured you owned this place by now...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> I figured you owned this place by now...


You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks for the replies...I apologize for my DELAYED response. 



RH said:


> Assuming you would really end up charging what your boss does you might still be undercutting others if your boss tends to lowball jobs.
> 
> Also, you don't say where you are located. I personally would not recommend that anyone ever begin work without being licensed, and never without insurance. But depending on where you are, the requirements and enforcement of them can vary considerably. I would not recommend working without a license in Oregon.


In VA you can take jobs under a certain dollar amount without a license. For me not getting a license is not an option; too many people want to look up your license number to make sure there aren't any complaints filed against you. 

I don't think my boss lowballs jobs, but that's not really relevant to my having a license or not. Lowballers would be a whole other topic.



CApainter said:


> OK, here's the advice I would give you, but keep in mind, I'm just a scrappy little employee with too many years of exposure to solvents.
> 
> First, obey your current employer one hundred percent unless he's directing you to work unsafely for what ever reason. Second, don't keep mentioning to him how excited you are to go off on your own and essentially become one of his competitors. I think there's a section somewhere in a business ethics book that deals with that subject.
> 
> ...


My boss is an anomaly. Like I mentioned, he has encouraged me to go out on my own and said I can borrow bigger ladders, and other equipment I can't afford at this point to help me get started (assuming he doesn't need them for a current job). He's all for it so I'm pretty blessed to be working for someone that wants to help as much as he does.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint,

Standards and practices are usually not driven by anomalies, but rather by ethics. If you recognize that working without a license is not ethical, then you'll want to wait until you receive one. The same thing applies to being allowed to borrow equipment and moon light by your employer. Best practice would be to quietly go about your business while at the same time demonstrating loyalty to your employer. Maybe even kick him back a little something for being so lenient and helpful.

The point is to not be seduced by a business relationship that is in fact an anomaly, and not representative of the real world. You'll start expecting everyone to be really nice, like your current employer, only to become extremely dissapointed when you find out they're not.

Keep it business like.


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

CApainter said:


> 804 Paint,
> 
> Standards and practices are usually not driven by anomalies, but rather by ethics. If you recognize that working without a license is not ethical, then you'll want to wait until you receive one. The same thing applies to being allowed to borrow equipment and moon light by your employer. Best practice would be to quietly go about your business while at the same time demonstrating loyalty to your employer. Maybe even kick him back a little something for being so lenient and helpful.
> 
> ...


OK...you're taking a lot of liberty here in assuming you know anything about me, my boss, my situation or my grasp on reality and ethical behavior. I already stated that you only need a contractors license here in VA for jobs over a certain dollar amount and that I will be obtaining one REGARDLESS of that fact. As for the rest, that's really between my boss and I, isn't it? MY only point was to say I'm working for a great guy who as OFFERED (I did not ask) to help in many ways. You seem to assume that I'm treating him like dirt and taking advantage of him...even though you've never been in earshot of a single conversation that's transpired between us. That's the tone I'm getting anyway.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> OK...you're taking a lot of liberty here in assuming you know anything about me, my boss, my situation or my grasp on reality and ethical behavior. I already stated that you only need a contractors license here in VA for jobs over a certain dollar amount and that I will be obtaining one REGARDLESS of that fact. As for the rest, that's really between my boss and I, isn't it? MY only point was to say I'm working for a great guy who as OFFERED (I did not ask) to help in many ways. You seem to assume that I'm treating him like dirt and taking advantage of him...even though you've never been in earshot of a single conversation that's transpired between us. That's the tone I'm getting anyway.


California has a similar consideration for non licensed contractors. I think it's something like under $600.00 per job, and possibly not to exceed some certain annual income. I'm not certian. Either way, I would not be confident that a $600.00 dollar limit per job, just to be license exempt, would be a responsible way to run a business in terms of generating capitol.

No need to to take opinions here personally when you took the liberty to post your situation and expected feed back. It's not my obligation to post what you want to hear..or read in this case. It's great that you have a wonderful boss, but every situation is not like yours, an anomaly as you correctly put it.

Besides, as employees, neither one of us knows what the hell we're talking about. Better to focus on comments from the real business men and women on this board. You've made this thread very interesting non the less. Thanks!


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

CApainter said:


> California has a similar consideration for non licensed contractors. I think it's something like under $600.00 per job, and possibly not to exceed some certain annual income. I'm not certian. Either way, I would not be confident that a $600.00 dollar limit per job, just to be license exempt, would be a responsible way to run a business in terms of generating capitol.


We don't disagree; I never said it's a good way to run a business. But for someone wanting to venture out on their own when people are asking me to do work for them, it's not half bad. I don't feel like you listen so good!



> No need to to take opinions here personally when you took the liberty to post your situation and expected feed back. It's not my obligation to post what you want to hear..or read in this case. It's great that you have a wonderful boss, but every situation is not like yours, an anomaly as you correctly put it.


I appreciate the feedback and was not taking it as personally as you might think; just felt like you were making assumptions and not really hearing what I was saying, that's all. I definitely understand the uniqueness of my situation. Anna Molly!



> Besides, as employees, neither one of us knows what the hell we're talking about. Better to focus on comments from the real business men and women on this board. You've made this thread very interesting non the less. Thanks!


You're welcome! Now I will feel free to ignore you from this point forward and listen to the real painters from now on.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

804 Paint said:


> We don't disagree; I never said it's a good way to run a business. But for someone wanting to venture out on their own when people are asking me to do work for them, it's not half bad. I don't feel like you listen so good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice chatting with you AJ!


----------

