# Better Ceilings - Spray or Brush/Roll?



## rwransom (Aug 7, 2013)

When selling ceiling painting (usually orange peel or knock down) we tell clients that brush/roll yields a superior finish to spraying. Do you think that's true?

Usually we do 1 coat of primer (123) and 1 coat of finish (ProMar 200 Zero).

I'm a remodeling contractor, not a pro painter. Thank You in advance.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

rwransom said:


> When selling ceiling painting (usually orange peel or knock down) we tell clients that brush/roll yields a superior finish to spraying. Do you think that's true?
> 
> Usually we do 1 coat of primer (123) and 1 coat of finish (ProMar 200 Zero).
> 
> I'm a remodeling contractor, not a pro painter. Thank You in advance.


If it's never been painted before I would recommend spraying. For me, it comes down to what's more feasible. Empty house, spray. Occupied with stuff, then I would brush and roll. If your worried about binding while spraying you can always have someone backroll as your spraying, you'll get better coverage too

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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

With knockdown spray and backroll.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

On the most difficult, critical lighting, angular sheen, large, nightmare scenario ceilings: spraying and back rolling with an 18" roller, cleared out, fixtures removed, room is the best way to eliminate roller lap and cut marks. The type of paint used is most important as well. Benjamin Moore's 508, is my favorite.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> With knockdown spray and backroll.


I know I bring this up repeatedly, but what is the point of back rolling textured GWB? With a newish tip and the pressure/viscosity dialed in, we've found it better to spray it and leave it alone.

Edit: if you use a tip with a sufficiently wide fan for thorough coverage.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Gough said:


> I know I bring this up repeatedly, but what is the point of back rolling textured GWB? With a newish tip and the pressure/viscosity dialed in, we've found it better to spray it and leave it alone.


Agree!:yes:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> I know I bring this up repeatedly, but what is the point of back rolling textured GWB? With a newish tip and the pressure/viscosity dialed in, we've found it better to spray it and leave it alone.


That's what I typically do too. The texture that I usually run into though is of the popcorn texture variety. However if it's a similar texter to what Richmond posted earlier in a different thread, then I would backroll just to get in all the nooks and crannies.

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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> That's what I typically do too. The texture that I usually run into though is of the popcorn texture variety. However if it's a similar texter to what Richmond posted earlier in a different thread, then I would backroll just to get in all the nooks and crannies.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


You're saying you typically backroll a popcorn texture?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> You're saying you typically backroll a popcorn texture?


No, for the knockdown texture I would, otherwise your going to have misses, or light areas. For popcorn, it's all about what's gonna be easier, same with flat ceilings

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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> No, for the knockdown texture I would, otherwise your going to have misses, or light areas. For popcorn, it's all about what's gonna be easier, same with flat ceilings
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


We don't run into that. What kind of overlap do you use on your spray passes??


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> We don't run into that. What kind of overlap do you use on your spray passes??


50% I'm a buy the book kinda guy. But with heavy texture (or stucco) you should backroll, because there is a good chance of having misses. And on stucco it pushes the paint into the concrete, and you lose any possible lap lines from spraying

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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> 50% I'm a buy the book kinda guy. But with heavy texture (or stucco) you should backroll, because there is a good chance of having misses. And on stucco it pushes the paint into the concrete, and you lose any possible lap lines from spraying
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


We do the same and don't have problems. What tip do you typically use?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Depends on my substrate, but a 2xx or 3xx. Sometimes a 4xx

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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Depends on my substrate, but a 2xx or 3xx. Sometimes a 4xx
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


Do you have a different nomenclature for tip sizes in Canada?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> Do you have a different nomenclature for tip sizes in Canada?


Nope, but the orface size changes with the material, usually a 10-17, I just like a smaller fan, gives me more control of my spray, and a little less overspray

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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Nope, but the orface size changes with the material, usually a 10-17, I just like a smaller fan, gives me more control of my spray, and a little less overspray
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


Thanks, I can see the advantage for you of the smaller fan, but I can also see how that would make back rolling necessary.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> Thanks, I can see the advantage for you of the smaller fan, but I can also see how that would make back rolling necessary.


Sorry, but I fail to see how the size of my fan is going to help or hinder my coverage? With bigger fan your not getting better coverage, you're getting more coverage. If you are trying to cover every little crack, dimple, opening you'll need to back roll, even cross hatching won't get everything

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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Sorry, but I fail to see how the size of my fan is going to help or hinder my coverage? With bigger fan your not getting better coverage, you're getting more coverage. If you are trying to cover every little crack, dimple, opening you'll need to back roll, even cross hatching won't get everything
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


Using the smaller fan makes streaks between passes more likely. There's also the impact of the geometry of the fan on coverage of a textured surface.

In any case, you've found a system that works for you, so stick with it. I doubt that there's much to be gained from further debate about this.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> Using the smaller fan makes streaks between passes more likely. There's also the impact of the geometry of the fan on coverage of a textured surface.
> 
> In any case, you've found a system that works for you, so stick with it. I doubt that there's much to be gained from further debate about this.


Awe, I was hoping for a good debate. Like I said earlier, there's always something to learn

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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

Sorry I'm late but the reason I backroll knockdown is when I started spraying I was getting those little holidays around the edge of the texture. So it just became a habit. But now with the newer paints and more tip knowledge and a lot more experience maybe I will try it again without the back roll.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Toolnut said:


> Sorry I'm late but the reason I backroll knockdown is when I started spraying I was getting those little holidays around the edge of the texture. So it just became a habit. But now with the newer paints and more tip knowledge and a lot more experience maybe I will try it again without the back roll.


We found that using a tip with a 50-60 degree fan and running the pattern carefully eliminated the need to backroll.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

My vote: Spray only.

But we do that all the time.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Most of the work we do is smooth wall. Skipping the back roll step can make touching up problematic. Even on light textured walls and ceilings, I've found that touching up can be difficult when they've been sprayed only, as the touch-ups appear a slightly different color or sheen. It's been a long time since I've tried it though, so maybe it's better with the newer generation paints, IDK.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Most of the work we do is smooth wall. Skipping the back roll step can make touching up problematic. Even on light textured walls and ceilings, I've found that touching up can be difficult when they've been sprayed only, as the touch-ups appear a slightly different color or sheen. It's been a long time since I've tried it though, so maybe it's better with the newer generation paints, IDK.



I don't think it is any better. If anything its worse. I did some smooth ceilings with Regal matte recently spray and back roll. In one room I tried spray only to see how it would do. The sprayed only room was noticeably shinier. And in the rooms I did back roll, places that the roller missed (right around smoke detectors, etc) had several degrees more sheen than the back rolled areas.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I don't think it is any better. If anything its worse. I did some smooth ceilings with Regal matte recently spray and back roll. In one room I tried spray only to see how it would do. The sprayed only room was noticeably shinier. And in the rooms I did back roll, places that the roller missed (right around smoke detectors, etc) had several degrees more sheen than the back rolled areas.


The only times when we haven't back rolled smooth GWB has been when the specs were for high-gloss ("lacquered") walls. The roller stipple is normally crucial to lower the sheen and help obscure those imperfections still present in a Level 5 finish. What that really mean was more work for the finisher, since they had to spend even more time getting the surfaces ready for paint.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I find with ultra hide I have no issues with touching up after spraying

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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I think I could B and R faster then spraying with a 2xx:blink:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Bender said:


> I think I could B and R faster then spraying with a 2xx:blink:


Haha, I wouldn't spray a ceiling with a 4 inch fan, either a 3, or 4. I'm just not a lover of the 5s, probably because I've had a few issues with flashing when I used them, and a lot of wasted material. Then again the flashing could have been because we were using a crappy product (exterior breeze). I've never seen a flat flash so much

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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

rwransom said:


> When selling ceiling painting (usually orange peel or knock down) we tell clients that brush/roll yields a superior finish to spraying. Do you think that's true?
> 
> Usually we do 1 coat of primer (123) and 1 coat of finish (ProMar 200 Zero).
> 
> I'm a remodeling contractor, not a pro painter. Thank You in advance.


Let me preface my response by stating that, compared to many painters on here, I am not nearly as experienced, especially when it comes to spraying.

That being said, I have found that rolling provides a better finish. When doing ceilings, I usually come across popcorn, knockdown, or some type of plastered texture (such as a swirl). Cutting in and rolling a popcorn ceiling is a pain in the a..., so much so that I will tape off under the ceiling and cut in with a 1/2 inch mini roller rather than spinning my wheels with a brush. Spraying is a much more efficient way to accomplish this. I spray one coat, let it dry, and then spray a 2nd coat perpendicular to the first coat. Afterwards, if I really do a close examination of the ceiling, there are still some sides of the popcorn that haven't "taken" the paint. After all, a piece of popcorn, although not a perfect circle, basically has 360 degrees to cover. Theoretically, if you don't hit the popcorn from all directions, you cannot be assured that all areas have been painted. This depends on the condition of the ceiling before painting, and some ceilings cover better than others. 

I have found this to be true when rolling popcorn ceilings as well. Don't expect a truly perfect finish. This reality always reminds me of the really useful post by PressurePros regarding the necessity of not being obsessive/compulsive or a perfectionist if you want to succeed. A newly painted ceiling should look good, but if you are wanting perfection, you probably are going to waste time and money by applying yet another coat.

As far as knockdown or other surfaces, I think spraying and then backrolling, as opposed to cutting/rolling, is still the smarter choice. Of course, whether the work site is occupied/full of furniture will influence this decision.

I don't see how backrolling can be avoided in many instances...those "holidays" occur in stucco or other rough textures. 

I prefer a 511 spray tip when doing ceilings.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> Let me preface my response by stating that, compared to many painters on here, I am not nearly as experienced, especially when it comes to spraying.
> 
> That being said, I have found that rolling provides a better finish. When doing ceilings, I usually come across popcorn, knockdown, or some type of plastered texture (such as a swirl). Cutting in and rolling a popcorn ceiling is a pain in the a..., so much so that I will tape off under the ceiling and cut in with a 1/2 inch mini roller rather than spinning my wheels with a brush. Spraying is a much more efficient way to accomplish this. I spray one coat, let it dry, and then spray a 2nd coat perpendicular to the first coat. Afterwards, if I really do a close examination of the ceiling, there are still some sides of the popcorn that haven't "taken" the paint. After all, a piece of popcorn, although not a perfect circle, basically has 360 degrees to cover. Theoretically, if you don't hit the popcorn from all directions, you cannot be assured that all areas have been painted. This depends on the condition of the ceiling before painting, and some ceilings cover better than others.
> 
> ...


Whoops, I prefer a 515 spray tip.


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## truecoatpainting (Mar 24, 2014)

I spray all ceilings as long as the walls are getting painted as well. If you are spraying, and having trouble covering all the texture, then you are simply not using enough paint. Fan size will not matter. That will just determine how many passes are needed to complete the ceiling. If either technic is done properly there should be no noticeable difference in finish. Spraying is just much faster, and easier in my opinion. As long as the ceiling is in good shape I always get one coat coverage as well. 


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## Professional Painter (Mar 15, 2014)

rwransom said:


> When selling ceiling painting (usually orange peel or knock down) we tell clients that brush/roll yields a superior finish to spraying. Do you think that's true?
> 
> Usually we do 1 coat of primer (123) and 1 coat of finish (ProMar 200 Zero).
> 
> I'm a remodeling contractor, not a pro painter. Thank You in advance.


Hello, rwransom. I personally do not think one is a "better" finish than the other. The differences between the two processes are minimal at best when they are both done properly. I have done both types of processes and to me, it simply boils down to which works faster. For me, this means spray. Not necessarily for a better finish but for a faster finish. Both processes, when done correctly, can look wonderful.

One process yields brush marks and roller textures which some homeowners do not prefer (some actually do) and IME takes too many man hours to get done, the other produces a consistent sheen and texture throughout when sprayed properly, regardless of the amount of obstacles that happen to be in the way. It also takes comparatively little time to complete.

We would never, I mean never brush and roll popcorn. Others here do and may have a different opinion on this. FWIW, I would invest the time, experiment and train yourself how to properly spray ceilings. Even if you have to repaint a ceiling 5 or 6 times and wait for it to dry before viewing the end result. Tip size, speed, angle of spray, distance from the ceiling and _most importantly, the paint and paint type_ are ALL determining factors for spraying a professional finish on any type of ceiling surface. Once we learned how to spray with the same or better results from B&R, we never looked back. 

If you think that the time savings isn't much, then let me ask of you this. It took us about 2 hours and 15 minutes (one man) to paint a 2,600 sq. ft. flat (no texture or knockdown) ceiling this past Friday. The ceiling included tray ceilings, sloped/graded ceilings and foyer ceilings upwards of 20' tall. The question is, how long would it realistically take for you and your team to B&R the same thing? 

Professional Painter


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## bbair (Nov 18, 2012)

It's funny how different our techniques can be, but, lately, on new construction, I have been priming smooth ceilings twice and spraying one coat of finish. I think it gives our ceilings a great solid, flat look, rather than using one coat of primer and two coats of finish.

Our primer is half the price of the flat finish, so it saves us a couple bucks priming twice and finishing once. I backroll at least one coat of primer, if not both, as well as the finish flat. It gives a great stippled hide effect. I used to spray and backroll only one coat of primer and one coat of finish, but three coats on a ceiling is top-notch, IMO. 

As far as tip sizes, shoot, I like a 519, lol. I want to get the pain in the neck work done ASAP. I have also noticed, and it seems counterintuitive, but you don't need to backroll textured ceilings. Spray it and walk away. You'll be surprised.


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