# New idea for BIN



## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

I took on a 3400 sq. ft. house last week and the HO wants all the nice polyd maple trim (doors and sash included) to be painted. In my experience I've found that BIN is the way to go for this application. As much as I hate BINing all that trim, I hate doing another 2 coats on top of it, so I came up with an idea. I took about 1/2 a cup of the finish paint and mixed it in with the bin, then I did side by side sample at the shop of the straight BIN vs. altered BIN. The results were amazing, the coverage just about doubled, and I'm sure one coat of finish paint would be sufficient. The next day I did a scratch test and you couldnt tell the difference. So the question is have I jepordized the integrity of the BIN, or found a great short cut?:whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

as you know, BIN is a shellac based primer. 

I have never heard of mixing shellac with waterbornes or solvent based. 

I don't think I would purposefully mix shellac into any paint that had different resins. 

Jack Ford, Zinsser's Manager of Industry Relations, is well known on the convention circuit to stand at the podium and lecture against playing home chemist and mixing products. Just by mentioning it here, he is out in his back yard practicing rolling over in his grave. 

If you do this and anything negative happens, you will have absolutely no product support from any manufacturer.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I know painters who will shoot a primer coat of coverstain on their trim, then a split coat of 50-50 coverstain:alkyd satin impervo, and then a topcoat of satin impervo. 

Have not heard of anyone mixing bin and paint though. I have heard that you can mix alcohol with waterbornes (too speed up dry time???) but never tried it.


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## 1800Upstate (May 27, 2008)

*Not a great idea*

Personally, I wouldn't even chance it. Have you spoken with a Zinnser rep to see what the ramifications are? I understand you may not enjoy two coating the trim, but if you charged for it, what's the big deal?


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

The whole reason I got into that train of thought was the fact that we sometimes get our bin tinted, which is an oil based prodect going into alcohol so I figured what the heck, might as well try some waterborn. I do know better than this but its a little bit of wishful thinking. I am going to contact zissner just on the off chance that they do OK it.

As far as being paid to do 3 coats I would just assume be on to the next job instead of retracing my steps yet another time after priming, caulking and filling, and 1st coating. I don't know about the rest of you but after about the 4th day on a residential interior thats being lived in I just want to be on the side of a house with chips flying into my eyes and pockets, sweating my nuts off, you know the whole grass is always greener thing.


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## YubaPaintPro (Mar 2, 2008)

I assume we are talking about the clear shellac here. I have used universal colorants to tint the clear w/ no problems and the coverage of your topcoat is awesome. More painters should use this, it will save you time. It shouldn't eliminate recommended manuf. # of coats, but it likely will eliminate more coats than you want to apply.

In particular the bright/dark colors like some "primary" colors are enhanced by having tinted clear shellac w/ similar colorants.

http://www.zinsser.com/PDF/TDB/BE_SHLLAC.pdf


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PVPainter said:


> The whole reason I got into that train of thought was the fact that we sometimes get our bin tinted, which is an oil based prodect going into alcohol .


Not sure I understand or agree with this. What is oil based ? The tint? I haven't seen an oil base tint in decades. Most tints are universal which I believe is glycol based. (hence the word "universal")

Please report what Zinsser says. I'll bet a C-note they will not support your idea. As I said before, Jack Ford is out in his back yard practising rolling over in his grave. 

You may take a clue from this sentence from the B-I-N MSDS:


> Water Solubility: The alcohol portion is soluble in water, the shellac portion is not soluble and will from a gelatinous layer on top of water.






YubaPaintPro said:


> I assume we are talking about the clear shellac here.


 I'm not sure anyone mentioned "clear" shellac. I may be blind, but all I saw was reference to B-I-N A white shellac/alcohol based primer.


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## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

Rather than putting a finish coat of paint in it, get the paint store to shoot a small percentage of the finish coat formula into it. Maybe 50%? By doing this, you should minimize the chances of affecting the BIN's performance.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

On the back of the BIN's can it says you can add up to 2ozs of colorant. One would think that as long as you don't exceed that, you are safe. It is probably a safe bet that there is a safety factor built in in case you do go over the recommended 2ozs. If you are painting white, have them shoot white into it. ( it does help)


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Here is some info on working with tinted shellac, right from Zinnser.

http://www.zinnser.com/pdf/Decorating_Tinted_Shellac.pdf


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

da arch,
you the man, you're right on with all your comments, you know your shiznit!!!


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> On the back of the BIN's can it says you can add up to 2ozs of colorant. One would think that as long as you don't exceed that, you are safe. It is probably a safe bet that there is a safety factor built in in case you do go over the recommended 2ozs. If you are painting white, have them shoot white into it. ( it does help)


Shooting white colorant into a premade white paint does virtually nothing but waste the paint store's time.


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

YubaPaintPro said:


> I assume we are talking about the clear shellac here. I have used universal colorants to tint the clear w/ no problems and the coverage of your topcoat is awesome. More painters should use this, it will save you time. It shouldn't eliminate recommended manuf. # of coats, but it likely will eliminate more coats than you want to apply.
> 
> In particular the bright/dark colors like some "primary" colors are enhanced by having tinted clear shellac w/ similar colorants.
> 
> http://www.zinsser.com/PDF/TDB/BE_SHLLAC.pdf


YUBA like's rapist's who committ adultry while raping, good call, I wish Kobe would fall of a cliff.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

patriotpainter said:


> da arch,
> you the man, you're right on with all your comments, you know your shiznit!!!


Thanks man, but I only know what I read from that which is readily available ..... TO ALL


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

patriotpainter said:


> Shooting white colorant into a premade white paint does virtually nothing but waste the paint store's time.


That sounds quaint and on the surface a good shot. 

Logic dictates that the best covering paints have more solids in them. So, if one is adding solids (in this case more color) into a semi-transparent formula, you say it is not an improvement? Just because one may have ran a paint store, does that mean that customers cannot "waste time" getting what they ask?

Since the highly educated minds at Zinnser (read the link above), expound on the better coverage of topcoats by adding tint/colorants, do really know more than them? Or just pissed because of time wasted? I'll make you a deal, If you are behind me in line when I get BIN's tinted, I'll let you get in front of me.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Here another link to BIN directly mentioning the additon of colorant

http://www.zinsser.com/PDF/TDB/BIN.pdf


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Bikerboy,

I must be dense as I cannot fully understand the gist of your comments, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree 

So I'll just add my 2¢

When paint companies talk about "solids", colorants are only a portion of the solids, and they in themselves do not improve a paint's performance. If too much colorant is thrown in, the performance of the paint will lesson. The solids that improve a paint's performance are the resins, but even a wrong combination of resins, vehicle, solvents, colorants, driers (and what ever else makes a paint) can have a detrimental effect.

So, just by throwing in more colorant will not necessarily improve performance and could be a waste of time. 

B-I-N will accept 2 additional ounces of universal colorant before it reaches a level of diminishing returns. And believe me, 2 ounces isn't very much. If you have ever tinted B-I-N you know how little effect it has. 2 ounces of the brightest red will turn the B-I-N into a gawd awful pink. 2 ounces of Lampblack turns it into a medium (at best) gray. 

I gotta concur with patriotpainter that two ounces of white into a gallon of B-I-N would not make that much of a difference in coverage and would be a waste of time.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

daArch said:


> Bikerboy,
> 
> I must be dense as I cannot fully understand the gist of your comments, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree
> 
> ...


Guess I am peeved with his attitude, where one is wasting the paint stores time. If I spend my money with you, I expect service not attitude, or I take my business elsewhere.
 On the opposite side of the fence, we just finished a job where we were painting over a dark blue nicotine stained trim. The 2 ozs helped us, (not anybody else) get better coverage with the topcoats. ( the blue showed less under the tinted BIN). My expeiriance does not mean it was your experiance. Some body asked for help or ideas and they were offered. 
Did not present it as a "cure all" or a "paint improver" just an idea that may help attain better coverage (look) of the top coat. Also that Zinnser views such tinting as an acceptable practice.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Hey man, we all got "attitude". If we all learned (and I am including myself) learn how to moderate it, communications would be vastly improved. :thumbsup:

OK, I can agree that if you have a DARK color that is going white, and B-I-N is the necessary primer (to seal the nicotine in your case), then extra colorant can only help in this instance. 

But, still, each use is specific. 

I just want to make sure everyone understands the limit of colorant a particular paint can stand and not to confuse colorant with other solids that makes paint better. 


:thumbup:


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> That sounds quaint and on the surface a good shot.
> 
> Logic dictates that the best covering paints have more solids in them. So, if one is adding solids (in this case more color) into a semi-transparent formula, you say it is not an improvement? Just because one may have ran a paint store, does that mean that customers cannot "waste time" getting what they ask?
> 
> Since the highly educated minds at Zinnser (read the link above), expound on the better coverage of topcoats by adding tint/colorants, do really know more than them? Or just pissed because of time wasted? I'll make you a deal, If you are behind me in line when I get BIN's tinted, I'll let you get in front of me.


You're confused, I mentioned adding white colorant to white paint, i never mentioned adding COLOR. I never mentioned SEMI - TRANSPARENT either. IF your finish coat is blue of coarse tinting the primer blue will help in coverage..this is common sense. Zinsser is talking about adding COLOR to primer not adding white colorant (which is the weakest of all colorants) to white primer. I REPEAT adding white weak colorant to premade white paint or primer does very very very little, if anything to help coverage. Most painters know this, only the ignorant would ever ask us to do this in a paint store. You might want to invest in a reading comprehension coarse before leaving responses next time. How's that for ATTITUDE.


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

daArch said:


> Hey man, we all got "attitude". If we all learned (and I am including myself) learn how to moderate it, communications would be vastly improved. :thumbsup:
> 
> OK, I can agree that if you have a DARK color that is going white, and B-I-N is the necessary primer (to seal the nicotine in your case), then extra colorant can only help in this instance.
> 
> ...


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## patriotpainter (Jul 31, 2008)

I would like to apalogize to Bikerboy for getting upset and becomming a smart ass on my last reply, My wife was yelling at me for being online all night and she ticked me off, i took it out on Bikerboy. 
Bikerboy, I would never tell a painter he was wasting his time, i would just do it, I never told a painter "no" on anything unless it was really crazy like delivering paint on a Sunday when we were closed, Painters asked all the time, I would work late on Saturdays for painters though, i didn't mind that.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

patriotpainter said:


> I would like to apalogize to Bikerboy for getting upset and becomming a smart ass on my last reply, My wife was yelling at me for being online all night and she ticked me off,


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

patriotpainter said:


> My wife was yelling at me for being online all night and she ticked me off


:boxing: the old bat


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

patriotpainter said:


> I would like to apalogize to Bikerboy for getting upset and becomming a smart ass on my last reply, My wife was yelling at me for being online all night and she ticked me off, i took it out on Bikerboy.
> Bikerboy, I would never tell a painter he was wasting his time, i would just do it, I never told a painter "no" on anything unless it was really crazy like delivering paint on a Sunday when we were closed, Painters asked all the time, I would work late on Saturdays for painters though, i didn't mind that.


Always thought it easy to make mistakes and forget about them, but only a man with integrity apologizes and corrects them. (My wife can bring out the worst in me too). I apologize also for being a smartass. Been real sensitive the last couple of days. Need some Vagasil because my cooter is itching.

Gotta stop now, I'm getting all teary eyed!


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## mikepaintbrush (Jul 30, 2008)

:devil:"My wife was yelling at me for being online all night and she ticked me off"

Nothing a shovel and a deep hole can't fix!!


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## ronkemper13 (Aug 13, 2008)

Two things i've learned about BIN....1- let it sit for 30 days in unopened can...thickens up and improves coverage and ease of use(watch out for too thick of an application though...2- NEVER EVER mix anything with bin....EVER!!!...chemically will not mix with waterbournes even if it seems to...eventually you will be back because of premature cracking or failure of top coat because of conflicts with the paint mixed with bin....nuff said.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

just tint the bin

it works great, even with deep tones

i would still 2 coat it though, for uniformity.


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## PVPainter (Jul 26, 2008)

Wow, a lot has happened since I last checked this post. First off I would like to say that I am a firm believer in putting white tint into my bin. Bin is not white, it is yellow (every time I have used it at least) so by putting the two ounces of white in you get a true white, rather than yellow. Call me crazy, maybe it is in my head, but it is what I do and it works.


Darch - kudos on the product knowledge. I wish everyone (including myself) was as informed as you.


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