# My new love for BIN



## finishesbykevyn

I'm working on a huge kitchen cabinet repaint. All stained and clear coated Birch. One of my crew sort of over sanded the doors and burned through to the bare wood.
normally i just give my doors a light sand and prime with INSLX Stix with no issues of tannin bleed or the likes.
However, after a coat of Stix, it was quite apparent of the over sanding. The birch was bleeding through like crazy on all the doors. Ahhhh.
So, I loaded up the HVLP with BIN Shellac and shot a quick coat on everything.
Man does that stuff spray like a dream out of the HVLP. Amazing. 
And the smell honestly wasnt that bad.. May be switching from the Stix to BIN.
Only concern, does it adhere as well as the STIX over clear coats etc..?
Also, is that stuff even tintable? BIN to the rescue!


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> I'm working on a huge kitchen cabinet repaint. All stained and clear coated Birch. One of my crew sort of over sanded the doors and burned through to the bare wood.
> 
> normally i just give my doors a light sand and prime with INSLX Stix with no issues of tannin bleed or the likes.
> 
> However, after a coat of Stix, it was quite apparent of the over sanding. The birch was bleeding through like crazy on all the doors. Ahhhh.
> 
> So, I loaded up the HVLP with BIN Shellac and shot a quick coat on everything.
> 
> Man does that stuff spray like a dream out of the HVLP. Amazing.
> 
> And the smell honestly wasnt that bad.. May be switching from the Stix to BIN.
> 
> Only concern, does it adhere as well as the STIX over clear coats etc..?
> 
> Also, is that stuff even tintable? BIN to the rescue!


I think BIN sticks better than stix and It sure does spray like a dream. We use it on every cabinet job because I don't think there's a better primer on the market. 

There have been some cases (especially on oak) where when sprayed there's no stains then after the first coat of paint some bleed through. If you hit those spots with bin again it'll bleed again. The only solution I've found is to hit those spots with coverstain. It doesn't happen often but if it does switch to coverstain and you'll be good to go. 

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## Woodco

You can save yourself a few bucks by using ammonia to clean your equipment instead of Alcohol. It makes some nasty fumes though....

The stain blocking properties are exactly why I use it instead of stix. Also, the sandability of BIN is awesome.


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## Delta Painting

BIN for the win!


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## DeanV

We experimented with a ton off WB primers over the years. We could almost skip the solvent stuff 90% plus of the time. But, we stick with BIN now. No surprises is a good thing.


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## finishesbykevyn

Woodco said:


> You can save yourself a few bucks by using ammonia to clean your equipment instead of Alcohol. It makes some nasty fumes though....
> 
> The stain blocking properties are exactly why I use it instead of stix. Also, the sandability of BIN is awesome.


I had some methyl hydrate kicking around and seemed to clean up the BIN like hot butter. Not sure if that's the best thing or not..

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## LowesOfficial

Yep they're both tintable with the usual 2oz/gal.


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## Woodco

finishesbykevyn said:


> I had some methyl hydrate kicking around and seemed to clean up the BIN like hot butter. Not sure if that's the best thing or not..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


If you can get it cheap, go for it. For me, I can buy a $13 gallon of denatured alcohol, or go to the dollar store and buy a small thing of ammonia that makes two gallons, for a buck. Of course it really depends on if I have to clean inside or not, cuz ammonia sucks.....


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## Tprice2193

BIN works so good (adherence and stain blocking) that it is easy to get sloppy with the prep. Those brown spots RBriggs is talking about are real. I usually run into them on the frames around the stove. The spots are about the size of a pencil eraser. The coverstain works but I sand down the whole area to bare wood removing the contaminated finish and use BIN in the rattle can two coats.


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## PPD

Love me some bin shellac! The fumes tho, man! Anytime I’m forced to roll/brush the bases I get a massive headache even with the respirator. 

Its so viscous the gun loves it but I still use an older HVLP for most of that since I don’t wanna worry bout anything being leftover in my more expensive equipment. 

Yep, u can have it tinted with any UT! Have only had bleed thru on oak but just used light 2nd coat of cover stain for the win.


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## Mr Smith

My go-to cabinet primer is now Sherwin Williams Shellac primer. It's about $12/gallon cheaper than BIN and has low odor comparatively speaking. Bin covers better but that's not an issue when spraying. Shellac is shellac.

I prefer BIN in a rattle can because it has a better nozzle and covers better.


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## DeanV

If you are running BIN in an airless, what do you leave in the lines after cleaning? I have been leaving alcohol in the lines and pump defender or mineral spirits in the pump. If you clean with ammonia, what do you leave in the lines and the pump for storage between jobs?


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## Mr Smith

DeanV said:


> If you are running BIN in an airless, what do you leave in the lines after cleaning? I have been leaving alcohol in the lines and pump defender or mineral spirits in the pump. If you clean with ammonia, what do you leave in the lines and the pump for storage between jobs?


I rinsed my sprayer out with 3/1 ratio of water to ammonia, rinsed that out with warm water, and then filled up the rig and lines with methyl hydrate to sit overnight. Next,I rinsed it out with warm water to apply the top coat of BM Advance the following day. No issues. That might have been overkill, who knows?


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## finishesbykevyn

DeanV said:


> If you are running BIN in an airless, what do you leave in the lines after cleaning? I have been leaving alcohol in the lines and pump defender or mineral spirits in the pump. If you clean with ammonia, what do you leave in the lines and the pump for storage between jobs?


I wouldn't run Bin through my airless. Too much clean up! It sprays sooo nice out of the hvlp and minimal clean up 

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## DeanV

I have 3 gx19’s. One for waterborne paint, one for BIN, one for waterborne clears. 

Bin does spray nice from hvlp, but get sick of the refills on larger jobs.


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## Woodco

DeanV said:


> If you are running BIN in an airless, what do you leave in the lines after cleaning? I have been leaving alcohol in the lines and pump defender or mineral spirits in the pump. If you clean with ammonia, what do you leave in the lines and the pump for storage between jobs?


water, or if you like pump defender, put that in. Ammonia is water based, just flush it out.


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## Mr Smith

Woodco said:


> water, or if you like pump defender, put that in. Ammonia is water based, just flush it out.


How strong of a mixture of ammonia do you use? I've been using 3:1

Is anyone using pure ammonia without diluting?


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## Woodco

I've only done it once, and I think I did it too strong. But, whatever, it worked, and only cost me $2 instead of $12 for denatured alcohol.


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## Paint40

The Sherwin Williams synthetic shellac or the pigmented shellac is a great product!


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## Mr Smith

Paint40 said:


> The Sherwin Williams synthetic shellac or the pigmented shellac is a great product!


Agree about the pigmented shellac primer. I've mentioned that several times the last 2 weeks and nobody commented on this golden little nugget I presented. It has relatively no odor which is huge when compared to BIN and it's $12/gallon cheaper. I won't use BIN again unless in a rattle can. Their rattle cans have a better tip than SW Shellac primer spray cans. I always use rattle cans for touchups although they charge me $10 a rattle can which is 1/5 the price of a full gallon. You pay a premium for the convenience.


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## finishesbykevyn

Paint40 said:


> The Sherwin Williams synthetic shellac or the pigmented shellac is a great product!


How is the adhesion compared to BIN? Also, are any of these products tintable to say a shade of grey?

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## Woodco

I used sherwin (real) shellac the other day over some old oil, and it stuck and performed exactly like BIN. Smelled the same, and they are both about the same price for me too. If your sherwin has their shellac cheaper, use that.


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## finishesbykevyn

Mr Smith said:


> How strong of a mixture of ammonia do you use? I've been using 3:1
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone using pure ammonia without diluting?


Gross. Once when I was really young, skateboarding around in these loading docks. There were some old emty ammonia containers. We took off the lids and took a sniff to see what it was. Just about choked to death. That stuff is nasty.

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## diplodock

I've used both Kilz and BIN products many times over the past 20yrs or so. I've found the oil or "shellac" based stuff to always be very thin, watery and STINK, but man does it cover, hold and make a great prime coat. BIN is great for priming MDF. It also sprays easy out of my hvlp gun. BIN is great for high-moisture areas, I used it when I repainted my parent's bathrooms and they remain mold-free to this day.


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## vilmost

BIN is awesome for stain coverage but it's very brittle. 

I sprayed some on a smooth piece of rubber and when I bent it, it cracked like hell and the flakes were jumping off by themselves. Same test with Coverstain revealed that the film maintained elasticity and adhesion, and it stayed put.

My concern with BIN is that if the underlying surface is subjected to enough temperature variation to cause expansion/contraction, it will crack through.


On a side note, SW extreme bond primer, while useless for covering stains, it has amazing grip and scratch resistance on minimally prepped glossy trim and cabinet doors (no scuffing, only wiped with denat alcohol). Dries fast, almost no odor, saves hours of prep.


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## Mr Smith

vilmost said:


> BIN is awesome for stain coverage but it's very brittle.
> 
> I sprayed some on a smooth piece of rubber and when I bent it, it cracked like hell and the flakes were jumping off by themselves. Same test with Coverstain revealed that the film maintained elasticity and adhesion, and it stayed put.
> 
> My concern with BIN is that if the underlying surface is subjected to enough temperature variation to cause expansion/contraction, it will crack through.
> 
> 
> On a side note, SW extreme bond primer, while useless for covering stains, it has amazing grip and scratch resistance on minimally prepped glossy trim and cabinet doors (no scuffing, only wiped with denat alcohol). Dries fast, almost no odor, saves hours of prep.


 Temp changes? It's made for interior uses.BIN is made for wood so any mention of applying it to RUBBER is basically meaningless.

Lacquer will also crumble like pastry if applied to a movable substrate. It has been in use for decades and is one of the standards for wood coatings on the planet. Same for shellac.


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## jr.sr. painting

Instead of starting a new topic I figured I'd post here. Last Friday I primed a bare drywall ceiling with bin bc all my latex primer was frozen. Anyone have an issue with this?


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## Wildbill7145

jr.sr. painting said:


> Instead of starting a new topic I figured I'd post here. Last Friday I primed a bare drywall ceiling with bin bc all my latex primer was frozen. Anyone have an issue with this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Other than it being an expensive primer to use for drywall, I can't see a problem with it. I understand your pain though. Bringing in the freezables every night is a pain.


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## finishesbykevyn

jr.sr. painting said:


> Instead of starting a new topic I figured I'd post here. Last Friday I primed a bare drywall ceiling with bin bc all my latex primer was frozen. Anyone have an issue with this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya, I do.! Meet you after school at 3 O'clock! In the parking lot. JK. BIN is great. But ya expensive.

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## jr.sr. painting

The bin raised the grain on the paper a lot.
Lots of sanding required. I have an upcoming job where the customer only wants satin impervo on all the ceilings that will be all new drywall. I'm thinking of using the bin as the first coat primer as the si goes over bin very well. Any other suggestions?


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## Mr Smith

jr.sr. painting said:


> The bin raised the grain on the paper a lot.
> Lots of sanding required. I have an upcoming job where the customer only wants satin impervo on all the ceilings that will be all new drywall. I'm thinking of using the bin as the first coat primer as the si goes over bin very well. Any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any top end drywall primer/sealer is good enough for any house. Many say Gardz is the best sealer, but I only use it in extreme conditions with lots of moisture. I'd stay away from BIn for drywall.

I'd use Benjamin Moore 508 deal flat ceiling paint. It's the best I've ever used.


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## lilpaintchic

Its overkill but shouldn't hurt anything. Heck, if the damn wall was coated in nicotine I'd use it. What's the difference?

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## jr.sr. painting

I'm looking into a future job for bin on bare drywall bc all walls and ceilings are spec'd for satin impervo. Unless there is an oil primer that will go straight over bare drywall without pulling chunks of mud with it. I have had that happen before


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## Brushman4

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, I do.! Meet you after school at 3 O'clock! In the parking lot. JK. BIN is great. But ya expensive.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Can you make it 2:30, I hate waiting around to kick some @ss?:biggrin:


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## finishesbykevyn

Brushman4 said:


> Can you make it 2:30, I hate waiting around to kick some @ss?


Man school days seem to be getting shorter and shorter eh!? ;/-

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## finishesbykevyn

jr.sr. painting said:


> The bin raised the grain on the paper a lot.
> Lots of sanding required. I have an upcoming job where the customer only wants satin impervo on all the ceilings that will be all new drywall. I'm thinking of using the bin as the first coat primer as the si goes over bin very well. Any other suggestions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any primer is going to raise the paper grain. You should always sand after priming. Your over thinking it. Any high quality drywall primer will be fine. If your super worried, roll a quick coat of Gardz first. 

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## Woodco

Gardz doesnt really sand. Using BIN underneath Satin Impervo would be good, just for the sandability.


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## jr.sr. painting

I'm def gonna be using the bin as I know it slows the dry time of satin impervo when it's thinned. Recently I've noticed impervo is drying much faster than in the past. This is a job where price isn't the issue it's the absolute perfect end result. Even if I did 1 coat of bin sanded well and another coat before the impervo I will do that.


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## finishesbykevyn

Woodco said:


> Gardz doesnt really sand. Using BIN underneath Satin Impervo would be good, just for the sandability.


Then why do you recommend it over skim coats instead of a tinted acrylic primer.? Just curious as that's what you suggested in the other thread? 
I still think either is overkill when your putting a couple coats of impervio on it anyhow. 
What's wrong with a regular high quality drywall primer like Super Spec. That stuff is great!

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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> i had some methyl hydrate kicking around and seemed to clean up the bin like hot butter. Not sure if that's the best thing or not..
> 
> Sent from my sm-t330nu using tapatalk



absolutely the right (best) thing!!!


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> Then why do you recommend it over skim coats instead of a tinted acrylic primer.? Just curious as that's what you suggested in the other thread?
> I still think either is overkill when your putting a couple coats of impervio on it anyhow.
> What's wrong with a regular high quality drywall primer like Super Spec. That stuff is great!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk



Once the skim coat is on, just treat it as you would any fresh drywall! On the top there are no bubble issues. It's all new surface! "A regular high quality drywall primer" will be just fine.


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## finishesbykevyn

jennifertemple said:


> Once the skim coat is on, just treat it as you would any fresh drywall! On the top there are no bubble issues. It's all new surface! "A regular high quality drywall primer" will be just fine.


Exactly 

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## jr.sr. painting

For the best looking finish I don't think a drywall primer under satin impervo is a good idea. I would rather have an oil based enamel undercoat that is good and sandable


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## Woodco

finishesbykevyn said:


> Then why do you recommend it over skim coats instead of a tinted acrylic primer.? Just curious as that's what you suggested in the other thread?
> I still think either is overkill when your putting a couple coats of impervio on it anyhow.
> What's wrong with a regular high quality drywall primer like Super Spec. That stuff is great!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


The reason I was suggesting using gardz on the skimcoat is because it was already used to seal the drywall, and I think it would make life easier to keep using it instead of buying more primer, and doing the extra clean up. I like to simplify things. And it will take a basic pole sand, just not a deep sand, like you'd be able to do with BIN underneath satin impervo.


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## Lightningboy65

jr.sr. painting said:


> I'm looking into a future job for bin on bare drywall bc all walls and ceilings are spec'd for satin impervo. Unless there is an oil primer that will go straight over bare drywall without pulling chunks of mud with it. I have had that happen before
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You talking Waterborne Satin Impervo or Satin Impervo (alkyd)? JC


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## jr.sr. painting

Alkyd satin impervo. It's going on new drywall. I want to use an oil primer that works on uncoated mud and is very sandable 


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## Lightningboy65

jr.sr. painting said:


> Alkyd satin impervo. It's going on new drywall. I want to use an oil primer that works on uncoated mud and is very sandable
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, BIN is a great undercoat for SI. We always used BIN or BM Alkyd Enamel Underbody under Satin Impervo. Both work well, but I always prefered BIN. Nothing sands down like BIN. Put hundreds if not thousands of gallons of that on in my day. SI isn't the paint it once was, but still a darned good enamel. Glad to see there are still guys out there using it.


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## finishesbykevyn

jr.sr. painting said:


> For the best looking finish I don't think a drywall primer under satin impervo is a good idea. I would rather have an oil based enamel undercoat that is good and sandable
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well they do call BIN "the silver bullet". And it's very sandable. And less stinky than oil.
But hey! This go's back to the OP.. My new love for BIN. 

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## andrillasprocoat

BIN aka Burns In Nostrils (bet you didn't realize that's where the name originates) is the bomb!
if you're worried about running it in your pump, look on offer up or craigslist. you can find a tiny little used or barely used airless for cheap. a lot of homeowners and DIY buy the cheesy graco pumps from HD for $200 and use them once maybe twice only to wind up selling them for $50. 
I had a customer give me a very used looking one for free, its still kickin


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## Packard

I used SealCoat (dewaxed shellac) as a primer to prevent grain raising under water based PPG Breakthrough!

No grain raising, but the finish looked like antiqued craised, and with poor adhesion. I sanded off the finish and applied the Breakthrough with no primer and it coated evenly and has good adhesion (and did not raise the grain). 

Since BIN is shellac based, will it also create adhesion issues with Breakthrough?

As promised the Breakthrough dried quickly (re-coated in one hour) and after 3 days cure it was a very hard finish. Nice stuff. 

I needed a white, and I had the dealer color match to the caulk I was using so I don't have to worry when I caulk anything--a really good color match.


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## Woodco

Packard said:


> I used SealCoat (dewaxed shellac) as a primer to prevent grain raising under water based PPG Breakthrough!
> 
> No grain raising, but the finish looked like antiqued craised, and with poor adhesion. I sanded off the finish and applied the Breakthrough with no primer and it coated evenly and has good adhesion (and did not raise the grain).
> 
> Since BIN is shellac based, will it also create adhesion issues with Breakthrough?
> 
> As promised the Breakthrough dried quickly (re-coated in one hour) and after 3 days cure it was a very hard finish. Nice stuff.
> 
> I needed a white, and I had the dealer color match to the caulk I was using so I don't have to worry when I caulk anything--a really good color match.


Breakthrough is garbage. You can use it over BIN, but you have to wait 24 hours for all the denatured to evaporate.


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## Packard

vilmost said:


> BIN is awesome for stain coverage but it's very brittle.
> 
> I sprayed some on a smooth piece of rubber and when I bent it, it cracked like hell and the flakes were jumping off by themselves. Same test with Coverstain revealed that the film maintained elasticity and adhesion, and it stayed put.
> 
> My concern with BIN is that if the underlying surface is subjected to enough temperature variation to cause expansion/contraction, it will crack through.
> 
> 
> On a side note, SW extreme bond primer, while useless for covering stains, it has amazing grip and scratch resistance on minimally prepped glossy trim and cabinet doors (no scuffing, only wiped with denat alcohol). Dries fast, almost no odor, saves hours of prep.


I used BIN to spot prime knots on pressure treated lumber for outdoors. For those small areas, it is fine outdoors.

I've only brushed on BIN. For HVLP spray, do you shoot it straight or do you thin it? If you thin it, by how much? I have some cabinets to shoot and I have a gallon of BIN and I think I will try it on the cabinets.


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## Lightningboy65

BIN is one product you should never have to thin.


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## Packard

Lightningboy65 said:


> BIN is one product you should never have to thin.


Thank you.


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## The Montana Painter

I always cut seal coat with a good alcohol (10-15%) and then sand with a good 150 3m sanding sponge.. never had a problem using multiple clears over it......a great sanding sealer for clear finishing !!


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## heartlandpaint

If I have a guy having problems with BIN failing to adhere what would you suggest he suspect? They've sanded the finish down, cleaned with denatured alc, spray BIN, topcoat with GF Pigmented Poly two coats. There have been three doors so far that have chipped/ peeled off including the BIN primer.
Someone mentioned my suspicion about the brittle nature of BIN. This winter we have had a constantly variable climate with days 50°+ and 15° the next day. Spring with a certainty of snow. Point being I thought that maybe the conditions plus the movement & handling of doors may be causing the problem for a brittle coating. 
Any other suggestions?


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## Wildbill7145

heartlandpaint said:


> If I have a guy having problems with BIN failing to adhere what would you suggest he suspect? They've sanded the finish down, cleaned with denatured alc, spray BIN, topcoat with GF Pigmented Poly two coats. There have been three doors so far that have chipped/ peeled off including the BIN primer.
> Someone mentioned my suspicion about the brittle nature of BIN. This winter we have had a constantly variable climate with days 50°+ and 15° the next day. Spring with a certainty of snow. Point being I thought that maybe the conditions plus the movement & handling of doors may be causing the problem for a brittle coating.
> Any other suggestions?



Are these exterior doors? Just asking because BIN is only rated for spot priming of exterior surfaces. Maybe I'm not reading your post correctly.


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## heartlandpaint

No sorry, I guess I didn't mention they were cabinets. It's happening on the doors but not anywhere on the boxes.


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## Lightningboy65

The Montana Painter said:


> I always cut seal coat with a good alcohol (10-15%) and then sand with a good 150 3m sanding sponge.. never had a problem using multiple clears over it......a great sanding sealer for clear finishing !!


I second that. SealCoat is great!


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## Center_line_Painting

Since a BIN related thread is rolling, well...for the love of BIN>

Nearly every first coat of BIN I spray there are tons of pock marks or "cratering."
My assumption is its due to contaminates like grease on cabinet doors, but I clean very very well with krud kutter and sand like a madman before I prime. My method has just to spend a lot of time sanding to correct this between coats.

Is this just a characteristic of spraying BIN via hvlp onto a somewhat raw substrate? I get better results with a heavier mil thickness coating, and second coat is always much better.

And if it really is a contamination problem, what other cleaners would you recommend the cut the crap? I usually do two rounds of krud kutter and of course foculize on the particularly nasty spots which are taken to raw wood.


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## Woodco

Center_line_Painting said:


> Since a BIN related thread is rolling, well...for the love of BIN>
> 
> Nearly every first coat of BIN I spray there are tons of pock marks or "cratering."
> My assumption is its due to contaminates like grease on cabinet doors, but I clean very very well with krud kutter and sand like a madman before I prime. My method has just to spend a lot of time sanding to correct this between coats.
> 
> Is this just a characteristic of spraying BIN via hvlp onto a somewhat raw substrate? I get better results with a heavier mil thickness coating, and second coat is always much better.
> 
> And if it really is a contamination problem, what other cleaners would you recommend the cut the crap? I usually do two rounds of krud kutter and of course foculize on the particularly nasty spots which are taken to raw wood.


strange. Ive never had that problem.


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## finishesbykevyn

I've been using the Eco TSPE with good results. Not sure if I trust those deglossers. I wonder if it comprises the finish in any way.. but Maybe not.

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## Center_line_Painting

I'm using krud kutter original, not the deglosser. I wipe all the doors down with water after sanding.
I aught to try that product. 
Unfortunately I don't have a picture. I've messed with my gun and rigs settings ceaselessly. trying 4 stage hvlp, 6 stage...it must be in the prep process. I've also tried cleaning with dawn and had the same situation come up.


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## finishesbykevyn

Center_line_Painting said:


> I'm using krud kutter original, not the deglosser. I wipe all the doors down with water after sanding.
> I aught to try that product.
> Unfortunately I don't have a picture. I've messed with my gun and rigs settings ceaselessly. trying 4 stage hvlp, 6 stage...it must be in the prep process. I've also tried cleaning with dawn and had the same situation come up.


I usually rinse with clean water after the TSPE, sand, vacuuum, dust brush and finish with microfiber cloth..

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## Rbriggs82

I use the prepaint krud kutter in the blue bottle and never had an issue with BIN space spraying weird. Then again I've never shot it with an hvlp only airless with a 310fflp tip. 

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## The Montana Painter

Always use a latex primer over sheetrock...if the surface is completely coated with mud maybe you can use oil but why? A good latex primer has great adhesion, less stink and does not raise the drywall paper....Used oil primer over raw drywall once to hang paper over and let's say I was tired of sanding (to get smooth)before I hung the paper!! Latex primer first


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## finishesbykevyn

Since we're dragging this BIN subject out..I'm thinking of using BIN on my current cabinet door project as I've again burned through the finish to bare wood and don't want to chance tannin bleed.
My question is, how explosive/dangerous is this stuff. I have a small ventilation fan in the room, but also heaters and compressors etc. Am I going to blow the place up or what?!
Will be spraying with HVLP..

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## Wildbill7145

finishesbykevyn said:


> Since we're dragging this BIN subject out..I'm thinking of using BIN on my current cabinet door project as I've again burned through the finish to bare wood and don't want to chance tannin bleed.
> My question is, how explosive/dangerous is this stuff. I have a small ventilation fan in the room, but also heaters and compressors etc. Am I going to blow the place up or what?!
> Will be spraying with HVLP..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk



There is a chance for sure. Even your ventilation fan could be the source of said catastrophe. Any source of ignition.


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## finishesbykevyn

Wildbill7145 said:


> There is a chance for sure. Even your ventilation fan could be the source of said catastrophe. Any source of ignition.


I was afraid you were gonna say that. We're talking a lot of doors here.. What are other people doing when they spray this stuff??

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## Center_line_Painting

I have a propane wall mount as a heat source...open flame you know...
But, my ventilation is pretty good. I have two 1300+ cfm fans blowing out of the booth through duct work and out a drier vent to the outside world. I plan on getting a third as well.

I'm not worried about the off gassing from drying BIN, in the drying area, and the smell is already minimal in my shop. Typically when a friend walks in, they don't even want a mask, but I still offer. 
I am considering having better sealing doors to the booth to perfect the scenario further.Like a wood swinging door covered in plastic.


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## Tprice2193

BIN sprayed with HVLP, in my opinion, should be more dangerous than BIN sprayed with an airless due to air mixed in with the flammable ethanol. I am comforted that I have never heard of any reports of explosions or fires from using BIN however I do ventilate both the booth and drying area and no open flames. A lot of things become flammable when mixed with air. Flour mill explosions were at one time a big problem. I have a feeling we are too cautious with BIN but enough ventilation to keep the fog down won't hurt.


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## finishesbykevyn

Tprice2193 said:


> BIN sprayed with HVLP, in my opinion, should be more dangerous than BIN sprayed with an airless due to air mixed in with the flammable ethanol. I am comforted that I have never heard of any reports of explosions or fires from using BIN however I do ventilate both the booth and drying area and no open flames. A lot of things become flammable when mixed with air. Flour mill explosions were at one time a big problem. I have a feeling we are too cautious with BIN but enough ventilation to keep the fog down won't hurt.


Well, I bit the bullet and switched to BIN on this set of cabs. At least the white portion. The other half were going a dark blue, so not so worried about the tannin bleed.
I left the spray room door open with a fan along with my other little ventilation fan. 
And I didn't blow the place up. Howevrr, I'm Thinking I'll invest in a more powerful air mover or ventilation fan. 
I'm just super paranoid about that stuff, as there are so many sources of ignition everywhere..
Again though, besides the price of BIN (Taxes in $83Can.!)
So pricey, but it works sooo good and sprays like hot butter... 


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## Wildbill7145

finishesbykevyn said:


> Well, I bit the bullet and switched to BIN on this set of cabs. At least the white portion. The other half were going a dark blue, so not so worried about the tannin bleed.
> I left the spray room door open with a fan along with my other little ventilation fan.
> And I didn't blow the place up. Howevrr, I'm Thinking I'll invest in a more powerful air mover or ventilation fan.
> I'm just super paranoid about that stuff, as there are so many sources of ignition everywhere..
> Again though, besides the price of BIN (Taxes in $83Can.!)
> So pricey, but it works sooo good and sprays like hot butter...
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk



I know guys on here have posted about fans with sealed motors. There's been a number of threads on here about reducing risk when using BIN in volume. Also a few threads where guys were talking about crews or individuals that are 'no longer with us'.


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## Holland

I don't know... BIN is not ideal for large areas, even says so on the can. I would never want to spray that. We use it exclusively for spot priming only. 

Bullseye 123 is a great water-based primer, that levels-out and sands nicely. I think the polypropylene glycol ingredient is the key to this being a good primer option.


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland Painting said:


> I don't know... BIN is not ideal for large areas, even says so on the can. I would never want to spray that. We use it exclusively for spot priming only.
> 
> Bullseye 123 is a great water-based primer, that levels-out and sands nicely. I think the polypropylene glycol ingredient is the key to this being a good primer option.


No, the can says exterior spot priming only. As in don't prime the whole outside of a house. Interior is fine. 123 also doesn't stop tannin bleed, which is what this thread is mostly about..just saying.

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## Lightningboy65

Spot priming only? I wonder why they sell it in 5's. That's a lot of spot priming!


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## Tprice2193

The spot priming recommendation is for exterior only. They 5ers are useful for interior smoke damage where you have large areas to treat.


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## Lightningboy65

Tprice2193 said:


> The spot priming recommendation is for exterior only. They 5ers are useful for interior smoke damage where you have large areas to treat.


My post was in response to Holland's comment that BIN is not intended for use over large areas (interior). Obviously it is, they sell it in 5's. I've cracked the lids on multiple 5's in a day many more times than I care to recall!


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## Jmayspaint

I love pigmented shellac also. It has so many good qualities. I use it all the time when I need to prime something inside. I have gotten away from it for cabinets though, I don’t like that it’s so brittle. Seems prone to chipping over time. 

I’m doing a job now that has new ship lap wood walls to be painted white. I’m spraying 2 coats of white shellac on all of before the finish. Sands smooth as a baby’s but. 

It seems to me that the Sherwin brand is thinner than Bin. Maybe not as strong of a cut as the old timers used to say (less actual shellac flakes added to the mixture). 

I did have a failure with it a while back. Sprayed out a smoke damaged house, two times in many places, and the nicotine bled through after a couple days. Got to looking into it (I think we talked about it here maybe) and determined that I might have gotten expired material. 

Mixed shellac only has a shelf life of a couple years. After that, it starts to break down and is less effective at blocking stains.Zinsser used to put an expiration date on the bottom of their cans, but they stopped doing that. 

My guess is the world wide shellac shortage that’s had the paint companies scrambling to come up with synthetic versions and caused the price to rise, has perhaps led them to extend that expiration date a little. Could be they’re more hesitant to throw away old stock because it’s becoming harder to get and more expensive. There are only so many lac beetles in India after all. 

Just a guess of course, but I do know old shellac doesn’t work as well. The old timers used to carry the flakes themselves and mix as needed. Some high end woodworkers still do. 


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## Holland

finishesbykevyn said:


> No, the can says exterior spot priming only. As in don't prime the whole outside of a house. Interior is fine. 123 also doesn't stop tannin bleed, which is what this thread is mostly about..just saying.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Alright, I stand corrected about "interior" priming large areas with BIN, but stick to my position of spot-priming with it only, until such time as I can improve ventilation in my workshop (no open flames please).


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## finishesbykevyn

Holland Painting said:


> Alright, I stand corrected about "interior" priming large areas with BIN, but stick to my position of spot-priming with it only, until such time as I can improve ventilation in my workshop (no open flames please).


Yes, ventilation is always the issue. I totally agree. 

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## edinburgh1971

Great commentary about the BIN shellac. I've been refinishing kitchen cabinets now for 2.5 years, and earlier today I finally bit the bullet and tried BIN shellac on a sample door. Wow, what a game changer. The near instant dry time and smooth surface were a huge discovery. I need some expertise here... I use a Graco 9.5 HVLP 5-stage turbine, and I have to say the gun cleaning was an epic fail. I'm clearly missing some low-level details on the best process. Here is a recap of what I did (after spraying was done): Opened up the material cup on my gun and poured remaining BIN back into the gallon can. Then I poured about 1/2 cup of denatured alcohol (bought at Sherwin Williams) into the material cup, screwed the lid shut/connected my gun, shook it up and sprayed the DA out to loosen up the insides of my gun a bit. Then I emptied out the remaining DA from my gun, threw out the 32-ounce plastic cup liner, and started taking my gun apart. I used my brush cleaning kit and some rags dipped in DA and tried cleaning every part of my gun that was hit by the BIN. The DA was barely effective in cleaning/removing BIN. After about an hour of anxious cleaning, my gun was somewhat clean. I've always used waterbased materials (STIX primer, Cabinet Coat), so the soap and water cleanup was fast and easy. I really want to switch to BIN, but the Graco Edge 2 Plus guns are expensive and I can't swap in a cheap Harbor Freight gun for BIN only as it won't fit with my turbine air hose. 

If anyone can provide some support here, I would really appreciate it.


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## cocomonkeynuts

edinburgh1971 said:


> Great commentary about the BIN shellac. I've been refinishing kitchen cabinets now for 2.5 years, and earlier today I finally bit the bullet and tried BIN shellac on a sample door. Wow, what a game changer. The near instant dry time and smooth surface were a huge discovery. I need some expertise here... I use a Graco 9.5 HVLP 5-stage turbine, and I have to say the gun cleaning was an epic fail. I'm clearly missing some low-level details on the best process. Here is a recap of what I did (after spraying was done): Opened up the material cup on my gun and poured remaining BIN back into the gallon can. Then I poured about 1/2 cup of denatured alcohol (bought at Sherwin Williams) into the material cup, screwed the lid shut/connected my gun, shook it up and sprayed the DA out to loosen up the insides of my gun a bit. Then I emptied out the remaining DA from my gun, threw out the 32-ounce plastic cup liner, and started taking my gun apart. I used my brush cleaning kit and some rags dipped in DA and tried cleaning every part of my gun that was hit by the BIN. The DA was barely effective in cleaning/removing BIN. After about an hour of anxious cleaning, my gun was somewhat clean. I've always used waterbased materials (STIX primer, Cabinet Coat), so the soap and water cleanup was fast and easy. I really want to switch to BIN, but the Graco Edge 2 Plus guns are expensive and I can't swap in a cheap Harbor Freight gun for BIN only as it won't fit with my turbine air hose.
> 
> If anyone can provide some support here, I would really appreciate it.



I have guys using the graco 9.5. Materials used are commonly cabinetcoat, 1wb.200 and lenmar lacquer. They eventually just bought a 3rd graco edge II gun just to shoot lacquer so they don't cross contaminate.


My advice: bite the bullet and get a second gun. The clean up times will pay for its self.


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## edinburgh1971

Thanks for the reply. I should have clarified... I have 3 Edge 2 Plus guns, so I have no problem setting aside one for exclusive "BIN use only". I just need to know the best process to clean my gun after spraying BIN, as my attempt earlier today was a disaster!


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## Lightningboy65

edinburgh1971 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I should have clarified... I have 3 Edge 2 Plus guns, so I have no problem setting aside one for exclusive "BIN use only". I just need to know the best process to clean my gun after spraying BIN, as my attempt earlier today was a disaster!


Ammonia is a lot cheaper than alcohol for a BIN solvent, and works just as good. Maybe better.

Your process sounds about right. Maybe soak the aircap, projector set, and nozzle a bit after running the solvent through gun. And , if you don't already have them, get some brushes to run through the supply tube and inside the nozzle.

Dedicated guns are always a good idea.


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## cocomonkeynuts

edinburgh1971 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I should have clarified... I have 3 Edge 2 Plus guns, so I have no problem setting aside one for exclusive "BIN use only". I just need to know the best process to clean my gun after spraying BIN, as my attempt earlier today was a disaster!



They have a second guy immediately clean the gun as soon as they switch guns.


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## Lightningboy65

cocomonkeynuts said:


> They have a second guy immediately clean the gun as soon as they switch guns.


Or submerge the gun in a bucket of ammonia until you can clean it. It's cheap enough.....I've actually done this before, in a pinch. But clean it that day, a long term ammonia bath may not be the best thing for the gun and packings.:biggrin:


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## edinburgh1971

Good advice. I thought I had some DA on hand, but wound up having to run to Sherwin Williams to buy it, so factor in 30 minutes of idle time after spraying and before cleaning. I think I might do BIN solely on my cabinet doors I spray in my shop, but continue using STIX for the masked cabinet boxes inside my clients' kitchens. The flammable nature of BIN creeps me out! In my garage with fans, I tend to worry less!


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## Catdr93

*BIN over Kilz2?*

Right now I'm getting ready to paint the wood trim for a large set of picture windows with sliding doors and screens. The house was built in 1948 and renovated in 1970. At that time, the trim was stained by an old German painter who mixed his own pigments. I do not know what brand of stain he used, but it bleeds right through 2 coats of Kilz2 latex primer. So I want to use BIN over the Kilz2. Does anyone know if doing so will cause any problems? My top coats are latex paint. Thanks!


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## finishesbykevyn

Catdr93 said:


> Right now I'm getting ready to paint the wood trim for a large set of picture windows with sliding doors and screens. The house was built in 1948 and renovated in 1970. At that time, the trim was stained by an old German painter who mixed his own pigments. I do not know what brand of stain he used, but it bleeds right through 2 coats of Kilz2 latex primer. So I want to use BIN over the Kilz2. Does anyone know if doing so will cause any problems? My top coats are latex paint. Thanks!


I don't see any issue with it. BIN is pretty versatile.


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## finishesbykevyn

edinburgh1971 said:


> Good advice. I thought I had some DA on hand, but wound up having to run to Sherwin Williams to buy it, so factor in 30 minutes of idle time after spraying and before cleaning. I think I might do BIN solely on my cabinet doors I spray in my shop, but continue using STIX for the masked cabinet boxes inside my clients' kitchens. The flammable nature of BIN creeps me out! In my garage with fans, I tend to worry less!


 Ya, you definitely have to clean your stuff immediately. DA or Methyl Hydrate cleans BIN in a hurry. You weren't using the water based version of Shellac were you??


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## Redux

Catdr93 said:


> Right now I'm getting ready to paint the wood trim for a large set of picture windows with sliding doors and screens. The house was built in 1948 and renovated in 1970. At that time, the trim was stained by an old German painter who mixed his own pigments. I do not know what brand of stain he used, but it bleeds right through 2 coats of Kilz2 latex primer. So I want to use BIN over the Kilz2. Does anyone know if doing so will cause any problems? My top coats are latex paint. Thanks!


If the stain is bleeding through multiple coats of WB primer, chances are the stain used could have been a water aniline dye-stain, particularly if done by an old-timer. 

Anilines are very difficult to lock down and encapsulate to prevent bleed-through, even if the dyed wood was finished with an oil, wiping varnish, etc. If clear coated with a film finish, the film is often breached when preparing a previously dyed surface for paint, that’s where the problem begins. The way to test if it’s an aniline would be to wipe an unprimed piece with sodium hypochlorite, the bleach will lighten and remove the color if it’s an aniline. If so, Bin is about the only product that “might” block it. Water anilines, although not solvent soluble, will even rise through oil primers and shellac and can/will discolor WB top coats. If it’s an aniline a “couple” of coats of Bin might be necessary but won’t provide insurance against bleed- through.

I recently re-finished/painted a couple of hundred feet of cabinets and 30 passage doors that were originally colored with a blood-red mahogany dye-stain, previously finished by an old timer. Ended up having to strip everything down to bare wood and wash down with Clorox to remove all traces of the blood-red dye. The blood-red mahogany anilines will bleed through a dozen or more coats of white paint resulting in a not so lovely shade of pink...there was no effective way to lock down the dye, not even with Bin...maybe if I did a few coats of Bin it would lock it down although based on a prior experience it wasn’t worth the risk.

I first encountered and learned about this when stripping and refinishing a 1920’s mahogany piano, having to defer to an expert on piano restorations about the bleed-through issues I was having, the client wanting his piano white, not pink!. Nothing short of completely removing the now pink finish on the piano and removing the dye with sodium hypochlorite would stop the bleed-through. I had originally stripped the piano to virgin wood, just the smallest traces of dye resulted in the piano turning pink..

Prior to commencing with the cabinet/door project, in order to validate the issue, I found a blog about the dye bleeding through Bin at the following link:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2637818/stain-bleeding-thru-


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## edinburgh1971

finishesbykevyn, thanks... No, I was using the regular BIN shellac primer - not the "Advanced" waterborne formula. Once the ammonia or DA loosen the shellac from inside the gun, can I then follow up with warm, soapy water - or is the cleaning strictly limited to ammonia or DA?


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## jennifertemple

finishesbykevyn said:


> I had some methyl hydrate kicking around and seemed to clean up the BIN like hot butter. Not sure if that's the best thing or not..
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


It's the Gold Standard for cleaning up any shellac based product.


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## Lightningboy65

Methyl Hydrate is wood alcohol and more toxic than DA (grain alcohol). I've never found one to be more effective than the other in cutting shellac. And I never found either to be more effective than the much cheaper ammonia. A gallon of either of the alcohols will run $20.00 or more. A gallon of ammonia is $1.00 at the dollar store.


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## finishesbykevyn

edinburgh1971 said:


> finishesbykevyn, thanks... No, I was using the regular BIN shellac primer - not the "Advanced" waterborne formula. Once the ammonia or DA loosen the shellac from inside the gun, can I then follow up with warm, soapy water - or is the cleaning strictly limited to ammonia or DA?


Ya, I always do my final rinse with water. But I too am guilty of not cleaning my stuff thoroughly and ruining Alot of tips..:vs_sob:


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## Eagle Cap Painter

Nothing beats a rattle can of BIN for small touchups or repairs you only want to mess with once.


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