# PAINT COST and QUALITY



## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

So I’ve been a SW user most of my career, but recently I’ve been exploring other options just out of curiosity (ppg & BM). I’m not entirely familiar with Ben Moore and ppg s lines of paint and their quality compared to SW or their respective prices. Just curious how my prices stack up to you guy’s. All these are for interior flat: emerald $51, duration $43, superpaint/cashmere $34, pro mar 200 $28, pro mar 400 $22. I only have prices for 3 BM PAINTS, aura $59, regal $49, and ultra spec for $27.. I haven’t received pricing yet on ppg paint nor am I familiar with their lines of paint.. any info would be appreciated as always!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ultra spec, pm200 and Speedhide(ppg) are equivilant contractor grade paints. BM is the best quality of the three, but PPG is probably the cheapest.

a step up from that is superpaint, Ben from BM, and Pure Performance from PPG. I know Pure Performance Flat is by far, the best of the three cuz its washable. I havent tried the other sheens of Ben, so I cant say. They're basically the same grade though. I get a great deal on Pure Performance, so I use it for everything. Its alt least 10-15$ cheaper per gallon than superpaint, and regal for me, so its a no brainer.

Then there is Emerald, Regal, and Manor Hall. They're all great paints. Im guessing SW is most expensive, then BM, and PPG the least, but I dont know for you.

As far as pricing, you need to shop around. Go to PPG, haggle with the rep after showing your competitors prices. Hopefully they will go lower on all the equivilant paints. Sherwin jacks their prices up due to advertising. They are by far the most expensive for me. I also dont like their paints. If PPG gives you lower prices, revisit the other reps and show them, and try to get them to come down more. Its all about having a good relationship with the paint rep. A good paint rep would rather come down in prices than lose your business. It just turns out that for me, the PPG rep was the only one who gave a chit, so they get my business whenever possible. If I tell him I can get get something cheaper at Home depot, he'll drop the price so I dont go there. Make them afraid you'll use another store if they dont treat you right.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

or you can move to north central Ohio and i can sell you if PPG doesn't want too!


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

The only customers that lose at SW are the long-time, loyal ones that never shopped the competition. It's rare for SW to go backwards after a cost increase was imposed. The ones that win are the new accounts. The SW reps low ball using the 200 / 400 lines with the expectation that they will get you to upgrade to higher quality paints (with higher gross margin $) and spend good money on their brushes / rollers / other products.

Your Emerald pricing is better than average, but you're getting crushed on SuperPaint & Cashmere. The professional lines are about average. You can take your pricing to any other retailer and they will match / beat it. Woodco is pretty much spot on for the negotiation piece. 

Personally, Regal Select is awesome and I would put Ultra Spec 500 over it's equivalents every day. If you want to try something in a commercial setting, try Scuff-X. It's amazing . . .


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

SWPB said:


> The only customers that lose at SW are the long-time, loyal ones that never shopped the competition. It's rare for SW to go backwards after a cost increase was imposed. The ones that win are the new accounts. The SW reps low ball using the 200 / 400 lines with the expectation that they will get you to upgrade to higher quality paints (with higher gross margin $) and spend good money on their brushes / rollers / other products.
> 
> Your Emerald pricing is better than average, but you're getting crushed on SuperPaint & Cashmere. The professional lines are about average. You can take your pricing to any other retailer and they will match / beat it. Woodco is pretty much spot on for the negotiation piece.
> 
> Personally, Regal Select is awesome and I would put Ultra Spec 500 over it's equivalents every day. If you want to try something in a commercial setting, try Scuff-X. It's amazing . . .


Well said.


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

WOuld you say that emerald and regal are in the same category rather than regal and duration?


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I just quit sw a couple years ago, went to pig Cruz the pricing was awesome and just had a heck uv a time getting things dialed in....switched to bm and am still working things out but danggggg....BM's the way to go. Ultra spec or regal walls, 508 lids. No need to go any other direction really. I'd put regal in the same league as emerald, honestly. I really don't see anything special about emerald except a rediculious price tag. 
Aura is in a league all by itself.
And I LOVE scuffx on trim. Satin has plenty of sheen and dries super hard very quickly.
No patty cake on pricing. Excellent line up on sundries.It is what it is and the labor you'll save more than makes up for a price difference (which the hos pay for anyway....)
Just try it for yourself. Yer gonna kick yourself for not switching sooner!!!! That's what I did anyway...lol

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

Regal Select is certainly better than Duration and similar to Emerald in some regard. I prefer the application of Regal and the tint system (tints encapsulated in resin), but we're slicing hairs here and the application alone works for me. I cannot remember a time when a fellow painter said that they hated Regal. Emerald, well that's hit & miss based on a person's application preferences.




Local paint pro said:


> WOuld you say that emerald and regal are in the same category rather than regal and duration?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> I just quit sw a couple years ago, went to pig Cruz the pricing was awesome and just had a heck uv a time getting things dialed in....switched to bm and am still working things out but danggggg....BM's the way to go. Ultra spec or regal walls, 508 lids. No need to go any other direction really. I'd put regal in the same league as emerald, honestly. I really don't see anything special about emerald except a rediculious price tag.
> Aura is in a league all by itself.
> And I LOVE scuffx on trim. Satin has plenty of sheen and dries super hard very quickly.
> No patty cake on pricing. Excellent line up on sundries.It is what it is and the labor you'll save more than makes up for a price difference (which the hos pay for anyway....)
> ...


Absolutely. BM for homes is the way to go, although PPGs manor hall is pretty much its equal if you get it for under 30. I use Ultraspec for every house I do. I honestly don't think the higher end paints are better for the money


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

PaPainter724 said:


> lilpaintchic said:
> 
> 
> > I just quit sw a couple years ago, went to pig Cruz the pricing was awesome and just had a heck uv a time getting things dialed in....switched to bm and am still working things out but danggggg....BM's the way to go. Ultra spec or regal walls, 508 lids. No need to go any other direction really. I'd put regal in the same league as emerald, honestly. I really don't see anything special about emerald except a rediculious price tag.
> ...


Been preaching BM for the past 15 years. As a whole everything else is second fiddle.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

The only thing that you need to do is work closely with your BM store manager or sales rep. Lay your cards on the table in terms of what you're getting currently from the competition and they will meet / beat it. If you just ask "what's my best price," there's little incentive for them to discount aggressively. However, if they know where you stand, they will get there (provided that they're not holding up the counter like the Maytag man waiting for business to walk into the store--it's not done this way anymore).


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## lawsan (Dec 13, 2014)

I primarily use SW and PPG/Porter. Honestly I do not see much difference in performance. We do see a difference in price though. PPG is way cheaper. Both my reps are excellent stand up guys who understand I am just carving out a living.

What I did is invited them both to breakfast. We all sat down and figured out what is best for Lawsan Painting. My situation might be unique as I do a large volume of general polymers line with SW. they did not want to lose that. And PPG wanted more of my business. 

Guess what I am saying is do not be afraid to play your reps against each other. But volume is your leverage. If you spend $3000 a month do not expect the same pricing as someone who spends $30,000 a month.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PaPainter724 said:


> Absolutely. BM for homes is the way to go, although PPGs manor hall is pretty much its equal if you get it for under 30. I use Ultraspec for every house I do. I honestly don't think the higher end paints are better for the money


Ultraspec 500 is my favorite paint for walls but I'd feel guilty suggesting that product for a family with kids or to anyone who demands durability. No way it's as scrubbable as Ben, Regal, Aura,---- or even Dulux Lifemaster. I use Ultraspec 500 mainly for offices, move-outs and when people are selling their homes. The low sheen looks phenomenal.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Just had to explain to someone how math works.


Whats a better deal? Which one makes you feel warm and fuzzy? Hint: They may not be the same!

40% margins and 6% discount
OR
50% margins and 20% discount.


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

Here s how I see it.. if I buy 5gallon buckets of ultra spec 500 flat I can get them for $110, ($22 per gal). 
Ultra spec is a pretty decent contractor grade paint if you ask me, solid 2 coat paint. TOuches up ok, makes you work a little to apply. 
My go to paint is cashmere. It applies so smooth, with 1 coat coverage in many cases. For a mid grade paint I’m happy to pay the additional $$ to upgrade in most situations. I haven’t used BEN or pure performance, but i intend to try them both.
Then it comes to higher end paint. Duration and Regal are the top for me, there is no reason to venture on to emerald or aura. Since duration is currently $7 cheaper per gallon, for me it’s what I gravitate toward currently. I’m on the fence about premium paint though, REGAL is better than duration. But duration is good enough and cheaper for me. Do you guys think regal is worth the extra $7 per gallon? I’m going to eventually try to get them to price match.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Regal is not, unless you have some darker colors. Duration is awful in ultradeep. When I hear this "My go to paint is cashmere. It applies so smooth, with 1 coat coverage in many cases." I hear hack, don't be that guy who thinks because he is buying a better product he can get away with one coat. You can't put Cashmere on thick enough to create the right amount of build and sheen for durability and touch-up. Two coats man, do it right.


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

MikeCalifornia said:


> You can't put Cashmere on thick enough to create the right amount of build and sheen for durability and touch-up. Two coats man, do it right.


I spray it one time, done. Average paint, I'm west coast guy, Miller, Rodda.. BM is BS 4 coats paint, SW is too much for BS but usable. I'd better use HD or WM paint than BM if I have to. Although BM has one paint that is useful, Natura, but man it is pricey.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

I'm leaning towards agreeing with MikeCalifornia here. 

1) Regal: negotiate a better price to narrow the gap ($7 more is a tad too high)
2) Cashmere One Coat: unless you're repainting the same color in flat, you need two coats. Cashmere flows & levels well to create that smooth finish, but it does not have the mil thickness / build to conduct a moderate color change, provide a uniform sheen (if not flat) in one coat, nor successfully develop the intended color (for absolute touch up). Could you get by with one coat on occasion? Absolutely, but it depends on the lighting in most cases. To see what it really looks like, shine a nice flood light down the wall and you will find any flaw. (I suggest not doing this with the customer present--could open up a whole can of worms!)


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

And that's why 40% off sales work well for XYZ retailer (pick any industry). The consumer perceives it as a deal--hell we all fall for it and it's marketing at its "best." XYZ can do that because it's like a jewelry store. 40% off still equates to 40GM (after discount) at their register. In reality, that same consumer could have realized more savings by opting for the retailer who didn't mark up nearly as high and offered the lower discount.

And that folks is why I buy "local." To support those mom & pops stores and help them send their kiddos to college versus feeding the stock price of a conglomerate determined to kill the small stores. There's a reason that a certain paint company has a $450 stock price, while running 30% sales monthly and 40% sales quarterly. Marketing geniuses . . .

That being said, the mom & pops stores need to get out from behind the counter and begin working more in the field. People continue to buy from people they know / like. Hard to build relationships if you're holding up the counter . . . 





cocomonkeynuts said:


> Just had to explain to someone how math works.
> 
> 
> Whats a better deal? Which one makes you feel warm and fuzzy? Hint: They may not be the same!
> ...


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

time is important to most painters too ... along with prices 
that's why so many painters use SW, close by, easy in - out

imho SW has forgotten small contractors, they're going more for HO
with sales every other day giving HO 30 to 40 % off

they will chase new contractors, giving them low price getting you hooked, then slowly raise your prices 

i have found better relationships with PPG & BM. They set your price then provide a service. 

i wished PPG would go after the market with more stores / hours they would put a hurting on SW


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Farrell Calhoun paint. Same group of guys in the store now for over 5 years. No fancy sales or advertising. Price for good quality is in 20's for me.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

Repaint Florida said:


> time is important to most painters too ... along with prices
> that's why so many painters use SW, close by, easy in - out
> 
> imho SW has forgotten small contractors, they're going more for HO
> ...



SW does have that convenience factor, especially now that they sealed up Lowes. As for PPG, I can never tell what they're doing. If there is a misstep to make, PPG will make it. Look at what they did to the Porter brand that used to own a good chunk of real estate in the paint industry. BM seems to be getting their sh!t together, but sometimes it's hard to take control when you deal solely with independent retailers. Regional grinders, like Farrell Calhoun and Richards have a good price point for commodity paint . . . 

PPG is the only one with deep enough pockets to take on the Death Star known as SW. But as the last 17 years have proven, it takes more than deep pockets to become King of the Mountain and SW invested in an outside sales force & thousands of locations to make it easier to do business with.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

goga said:


> I spray it one time, done. Average paint, I'm west coast guy, Miller, Rodda.. BM is BS 4 coats paint, SW is too much for BS but usable. I'd better use HD or WM paint than BM if I have to. Although BM has one paint that is useful, Natura, but man it is pricey.


OH GOD! I just shot my iced tea out my nose!:vs_OMG:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SWPB said:


> I'm leaning towards agreeing with MikeCalifornia here.
> 
> 1) Regal: negotiate a better price to narrow the gap ($7 more is a tad too high)
> 2) Cashmere One Coat: unless you're repainting the same color in flat, you need two coats. Cashmere flows & levels well to create that smooth finish, but it does not have the mil thickness / build to conduct a moderate color change, provide a uniform sheen (if not flat) in one coat, nor successfully develop the intended color (for absolute touch up). Could you get by with one coat on occasion? Absolutely, but it depends on the lighting in most cases. To see what it really looks like, shine a nice flood light down the wall and you will find any flaw. (I suggest not doing this with the customer present--could open up a whole can of worms!)


This is pretty much every paint SW makes. One coat over anything but the same color will almost always not match the sample. Never. And it does create some pretty bad touch-up issues.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

SWPB said:


> *SW does have that convenience factor,* especially now that they sealed up Lowes. As for PPG, I can never tell what they're doing. If there is a misstep to make, PPG will make it. Look at what they did to the Porter brand that used to own a good chunk of real estate in the paint industry. BM seems to be getting their sh!t together, but sometimes it's hard to take control when you deal solely with independent retailers. Regional grinders, like Farrell Calhoun and Richards have a good price point for commodity paint . . .
> 
> PPG is the only one with deep enough pockets to take on the Death Star known as SW. But as the last 17 years have proven, it takes more than deep pockets to become King of the Mountain and SW invested in an outside sales force & thousands of locations to make it easier to do business with.



What could be more convenient than texting your rep Sunday evening and having a gallon of paint delivered to your job site?


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

SW has some incredible people . . . but the great ones get promoted within two years and we start the relationship over. Nothing better than a 25yr old telling me about products I've been using for over a decade. SMH


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## goga (Aug 6, 2015)

PACman said:


> OH GOD! I just shot my iced tea out my nose!:vs_OMG:


It will help to save some of the precious drink in hot weather if trying not to sniff it before reading painttalk)


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

SWPB said:


> PPG is the only one with deep enough pockets to take on the Death Star known as SW. But as the last 17 years have proven, it takes more than deep pockets to become King of the Mountain and SW invested in an outside sales force & thousands of locations to make it easier to do business with.


PPG is the biggest paint company worldwide with 14.3 billion in sales last year. SW is 3rd with 8.9 Billion in sales last year. 

SW may have the homeowners market saturated, but its PPG that makes most of the industrial paints in the world, and obviously, there is more money in that.

Airplanes, Trains, Bridges, Cargo ships, power plants etc. are usually painted with PPG.


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

The Valspar acquisition is just now hitting the one year mark and SW had $4.77b in sales just in the 2nd quarter 2018. I'm pretty sure they will eclipse PPG when they have a full calendar year under their belt. Interesting enough, SW Product Finishes offered on PPG Industrial back in 2010. Obviously, they couldn't agree on terms, so the idea drifted away . . . or did it? I'm curious to see who plays PacMan and gobbles up another regional grinder. And no, it won't be anyone gobbling Ben Moore. That's Warren's company and he hasn't sold anything since like 1978.


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## lawsan (Dec 13, 2014)

I say we all shut down for a couple of years. Lets go fishing and drinking. Bet SW removes that 40% off coupon to the HO. And we can all critic that young lady with the 4-8 pole in the big box commercials over a rum drink. We let those that work for us marginalize our trade.


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

Today I looked at Ultra Spec from BM and their Ben product, I have had crazy flashing from Ultra Spec eggshell but none from the Ben product doing the exact same procedure. 
Ben is 20 more a gallon and never had flashing issues in the eggshell and as another member mentioned it is washable. Ultra Spec is crap until you get in to the satin and semigloss


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