# What is PaintTalk.com all about? (and who is it for?)



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

There has been a lot of discussion lately about what PaintTalk.com is all about, who is it for, and other concerns so I wanted to try and address some of them and open things up to discussion. 

*Vision for PaintTalk.com (and other forums in our network)*
When I was in college I worked for a friend of my family who took me under his wing and taught me how to paint. I liked the trade and took to it faster than most so I was able to learn a lot during those years. The only thing I didn't master was wallpaper so I basically manned the pasting station during those jobs. It was fun and rewarding work and I was lucky to have someone take that much time with me to teach me the skills I needed. 
After college I worked for a tech company for a while but really wanted to get back to painting and running my own business but it was hard... how the heck do I run a painting business? I mean, I knew how to paint and though you can always learn more I felt pretty good about my abilities. I really just needed to work on speed more than anything else. But how do I estimate, set up a company, or deal with employees? 
Once again I was lucky (blessed) to have a friend of the family to talk to and he helped me a lot... but there was still more to learn and I couldn't take all of his time. I ended up turning to the web and finding a forum for painters where I learned all sorts of stuff. I had vets with 20 years experience helping me figure out how to estimate, market, hire employees, and more. I was amazed and it was the difference between success and failure for me. 

So, why take the time to tell that story? Well, that experience is really what formed my vision for ContractorTalk.com and now the individual trade forums including PaintTalk.com. Everyone was (for the most part) free and open with their knowledge and everyone had something to give. Even in the beginning when I was just learning the business side of the trade I was still able to help guys out with technical know how since that was my background. The result was that not only did everyone have something to give but everyone also had things to learn as well. This massive exchange of knowledge helped everyone involved. 

Let's compare that to how things were done just 10 years ago. When you had a question about how to do something in your business or trade you had few options. Other painters in your area wouldn't want to share their knowledge because they feared direct competition. You had trade associations but that was more of a one way transfer of knowledge and there is only so much info one organization can dispense. Finally you had expensive "gurus" who might coach you on their way of doing things but even then your only learning one way.

The exchange of knowledge that happens in these trade forums and other internet sites has changed the industry and enabled it to improve as a whole.
*
Who is this site for?*
There has been a lot of talk about who this site should be for. Some have suggested that new people who join the site and ask "stupid" questions shouldn't be allowed (newbies to the trade). Well... I'm sure I asked quite a few stupid questions when I first started but luckily I had some great guys who set me straight in a respectful way. I think the attitude behind the newbies and old timers posts have a lot more to do with the current problems then the question itself. When someone comes here and gets chased off I have a real problem with that. If they have an attitude that's one thing but sometimes they just get attacked and that's not what I want this site to be known for. 

Nothing has changed but let me state again. This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades. That can be a painting contractor, a paint manufacture, a paint retail store owner, etc... The key is that you do this for a living and it's not a side job or something your doing for yourself. Anyone who does join and asks a DIY question will be directed to DIYChatroom.com and I actually check every registration to see what they list as their painting trade. I ban a lot of people before they even get a chance to ask a DIY question. 

I'm not going to break down the site into those who have X amount of experience and those who don't. I honestly believe everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn and the mix of teaching and learning is what helps everyone be better.
*
What about public vs private forums?*
This question gets brought up a lot so let me try and explain why things are set up the way they are. 
I firmly believe the more people you have sharing information and knowledge the better for all involved. When you close down a forum and make it so only registered members can see the content there are a few problems that occur. First, if no one can see the info what makes you want too join? It's a hard sell to get people involved. Second, it's almost impossible to get people to the site. Most of you guys have found either this site or contractortalk.com by doing a search in Google for a keyword and our site pops up and you find a thread. If you have a closed forum that never happens. So the short answer is that open forums provide a dynamic community that you just can't get with a closed forum. Closed forums only provide for very small group interaction. 

That being said there are also some who are concerned about posting sensitive business topics in public view. I understand this concern and I'm going to be setting something up here soon to address that need. 

*A Reminder of our Posting Rules*
Now let's address what is probably the most important part of this thread. There has been some frustration between the "Know-It-Alls" and the "Know-Nothings" and it needs to stop. Everyone needs to take a moment and read through our Posting Rules. 

Let's look at one specific line of the posting rules


> Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on PaintTalk.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause you account to be banned.


It seems pretty basic but there are a lot of people who seem to be having a hard time with this. If your found to be chasing people off this site or having an attitude with users then your not following our posting rules. If someone posts something that you don't like or that you find remedial you have two choices. Either ignore it and post nothing or respectfully try to encourage the person to try a different approach. We all have to respect each other on this site or it doesn't work. Those are the rules that this site runs by and its your choice if you want to be apart of it or not... but the rules have always been the same and aren't changing. 


Well, I'm not sure if this long post makes any sense but I'll watch this thread and respond to questions as they come in. Thanks.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

how long will you get banned? for certain things,

Hey could you add the thanks button like they do on contractor talk?

thanks!:thumbsup:

youre the only guy who has all these updated forums, I looked up woodworking forum and only got your site.:thumbup:


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Teaching business skills to an experienced painter trying to improve his business is one thing. Teaching somebody, who clearly has just picked a brush up and set up shop as a painter, how to do get out of the mess they've made, or telling them whether or not they should sand a bit of wood before they paint it, isn't what this site should be about. Surely this place should be proactively helping to get rid of the hacks wherever it can do so?


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Well expressed. Thank you, Nathan.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Pete,

I believe you saw the post on the NGPP BB by miss d who did not even know what to call selvedge, let alone how to trim it. I caught hell from a few people for helping her and treating her needs with respect. I also caught a lot of accolades for putting her in touch with another hanger who met her and gave her a quick lesson.

The result of helping her is that she is no longer a hack. She installed the paper in question and the HO loved it so much, more installations will come in the future. That helps the industry ! That helps me. 

When you teach a hack how to perform the tasks correctly, they are no longer hacks. Now remember, Nathan has stated this site is for the person who works full time in the painting trades. We are not obligated to help the DIY'er. We try to direct THEM to a site better suited for them. 

And I have problems with some folks who just refuse to listen to the advice offered. And I am guilty of eventually loosing patience and being disrespectful with those "kids". But that is wrong. I should just shake my head and walk away from the discussion. Hey, I'm human, I'm not perfect. 

I know you and I differ on this. But I hope those reading will ponder both sides.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Thank you, Nathan! I enjoyed reading the "history" of PT!:thumbsup:

As I have stated before, I enjoy the "open forum" and all the personalities here, there is a lot to be learned! I too have been guilty of the "pack mentality" when it comes to "noobs". I will try be more positive and refer them to the DIY or appropriate thread. I think teaching others (new posters) to be more professional will only help the industry and the image of our trade.

I would love to see a section like the "Politics and Religion" here, not for the content, but the 250 post limit. That would create an area where we could discuss things and keep it out of the general forum. 

I think the "Thank You" button would help to create a more positive enviroment as well.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

PainterGuy said:


> how long will you get banned? for certain things,


Hopefully never .
We rarely ban people for anything and when they do get banned it's usually more of their decision not to follow the rules. They have usually been warned and ignore the warning over and over again. 
There are a few times that someone has done something so crazy that we banned them right away but that's extremely rare and the people totally deserved it. 
The rules are pretty basic. It's up to the poster if they want to be here or not. 



PainterGuy said:


> Hey could you add the thanks button like they do on contractor talk?
> 
> thanks!:thumbsup:


There are some software upgrades coming out in the next few months that may make me have to uninstall that hack for a while. That's what's kept me from installing it here... I didn't want to add and then take away anything.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> Teaching business skills to an experienced painter trying to improve his business is one thing. Teaching somebody, who clearly has just picked a brush up and set up shop as a painter, how to do get out of the mess they've made, or telling them whether or not they should sand a bit of wood before they paint it, isn't what this site should be about. Surely this place should be proactively helping to get rid of the hacks wherever it can do so?


Well, first I'd say that is the exception to the rule and not the norm around here. Overall I think the post content here is good. That being said when those guys do join I think the key is the attitude behind what your saying to them. I have no problem with you saying "Hey, maybe you should get out of business for a while and work for someone else and learn the trade before going out on your own." On the other hand if you "go after them" and chase them away that's a problem and it's an attitude that starts to make it's way throughout the site. If you don't want to help them just don't respond. They will get the hint.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

RCP said:


> I too have been guilty of the "pack mentality" when it comes to "noobs". I will try be more positive and refer them to the DIY or appropriate thread.


I think everyone has screwed up from time to time and it's not my goal to jump on people when they do... but when it becomes a repeated cycle that's when I think it needs to be addressed. The site overall will suffer otherwise. 



RCP said:


> I would love to see a section like the "Politics and Religion" here, not for the content, but the 250 post limit. That would create an area where we could discuss things and keep it out of the general forum.


I'm not sure 250 will be the mark but I am working on something. Thanks


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Nathan;

Thanks for providing us this site. 

I personally got a little peeved when some people came on your site and trashed you and the site. I would not go to someone's house and take a dump in the middle of the floor and felt that is what was happening.

That said, I may have gotten a bit out of line with my retort to some of the "New Forum" posters. I cannot justify my bad behavior with any one else's bad behavior.

Am also ashamed to think I may have played a part in chasing away a member whom I respect, who has personally taken the time to give me advice, and was always one to bring a smile to my face.

I offer my appologies to anyone I offended.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Nathan, thank you for such a great site and providing me a place where i can get hits on my web site!!!!!!. I hope that it becomes the picture you have painted so clearly. I think it would be helpful if you gave us the meaning of a "professional painter". 
And please give your input on the Sev legacy.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Well, first I'd say that is the exception to the rule and not the norm around here.


Just a few I picked out from the past couple of weeks:



SeaMonster said:


> 1)We have a standard post & rail fence. Each section is 4' tall x 6' long. There are 250 sections total. both sides. Thy need pressure washing and one coat of oil based semitransparent stain (TWP 101)
> 
> How much is it to stain one section of solid privacy fence? 6' tall and regular fence boards. no pressure washing, they are new.





Greg said:


> I have a paint job that has wrought iron gates or rails on hinges over windows for security purposes! The wrought iron has spots of rust and paint peeling! I would like to know what to paint on the black wrought iron rails and I would like a one step process with a rust inhibitor in it! Any ideas? I have been painting since 1988 and never had to do wrought iron before! I cannot take the iron off the windows either! Please help and any ideas would be welcomed!!
> Thanks,
> Greg





pacificpainters said:


> I want paint over stained kitchen cabinets. Should I sand then prime then paint or just prime and paint?





ptd said:


> I recently painted a fine textured ceiling that had not been painted before. I was going to roll two coats of latex ceiling paint. Each in the opposite direction 24 hrs. apart. I noticed after the two coats had dried on the ones I had completed that there were serious lap marks. So I sprayed a third coat on two of them and it seemed to minimize the lap marks. But on one large ceiling 40'X 18' I rolled one coat and sprayed the second in an attempt to avoid additional lap marks. This did not work. The room has a few sliding glass doors which lets in a lot of light and it doesn't look good.
> What can I do at this point to get these lap marks to disapeer? I don't want to do a third coat for nothing. I think the reason the other rooms look okay is that they are smaller and you can't stand back and see them.
> I would appreciate help!





pacificpainters said:


> Hey Dudes,
> I have swirlmarks (exterior redwood siding) from my porter cable paint shaver. Can I just prime over them? Will the swirls show up of I dont sand them down? Its 80 degrees in San Jose CA and I just want to finish priming.
> Thanks in advance.
> CR





Robert said:


> I'm doing some room that has wall paper all around but luckily only about 5 inches wide.
> 
> How can i remove it?


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Nathan - Thanks for the free site. I love it. Great information. Also, like the diversity (from the 30 year old painter all the way to someone just starting out). There have been a couple of threads dedicated to: "inspiring" others that are viewing but don't participate. There is a core group here that constantly post. Any ideas how to encourage all the other viewers to interact? Thanks, again!


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> Any ideas how to encourage all the other viewers to interact? Thanks, again!


I've never found a way to be honest with you. I think that's just the nature of forums.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Thanks for the post Nathan. Interesting read. Looking forward to your planned changes. Maybe this thread will alleviate some of the conflict we seem to have around here lately. Again, thanks.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I think it would be helpful if you gave us the meaning of a "professional painter".


Going back to the description of who this site is for: "This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades." So, I guess I wouldn't just limit it to painters but anyone who works full time in the trade. I think someone who sells paint for example has a lot of insight that could add to the site as long as they aren't trying to sell anything to us. Is that what your asking?





ewingpainting.net said:


> And please give your input on the Sev legacy.


 Feel free to clue me in. I'm lost.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Feel free to clue me in. I'm lost.


Are you serious, You have never heard of SEV? This dates back about year ago went on for about 4 months and is still brought up to this day. Sev was one of the many, like tool gave as a example. Only he was chewed up and spit out 3 or 4 times. Even the Mods joined on that deal. We Just had another thread about the guy. 
Nathan, You really need to come over here more often. May be that is why your picture that you painted for us is not on display at PT


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I would agree that Sev is sort of the poster child for what is flawed in the all inclusive, lets enable them all approach. There have been many cases like Sev where just a little knowledge turned into a very dangerous thing. We do have members out there damaging properties and causing coating failures in spite of pages and pages and pages of support here. Painttalk cant really change that, but I'm not entirely sold on supporting it.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Nathan said:


> Going back to the description of who this site is for: "This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades." So, I guess I wouldn't just limit it to painters but anyone who works full time in the trade. I think someone who sells paint for example has a lot of insight that could add to the site as long as they aren't trying to sell anything to us. Is that what your asking?


 Some get hung up because the title of the forum says this
Paint Talk - Professional Painting Contractors Forum


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

I didn't get the abbreviation "Sev"... if you had said seversonspainting I would have gotten it.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Nathan said:


> I didn't get the abbreviation "Sev"... if you had said seversonspainting I would have gotten it.


Ohhh, Rookie! JK


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades.

I'm not sure this works either, it would eliminate half the people here for one reason or another and would be more difficult to validate than most of the suggestions in the ill fated New Forum thread.


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

when the boss speaks, people listen :thumbsup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I personally think that as long as painttalk is more good than bad for the paint industry as a whole, I want to support it. Lately, there have been some red flags. If we are supporting and enabling an influx of incompetent self employed painters who are not interested in learning the right way to paint and conduct business, and just want immediate answers for how to bid that job tomorrow and how to fix the siding they destroyed today...on a seemingly larger and larger scale, that would not be good for our trade.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Slingah said:


> when the boss speaks, people listen :thumbsup:


I have been noticing that people are listening to me more these days.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This site is designed specifically for anyone who works full time in the painting trades.
> 
> I'm not sure this works either, it would eliminate half the people here for one reason or another and would be more difficult to validate than most of the suggestions in the ill fated New Forum thread.


We run on an honor system here and it's always worked well. We ask people during registration what they do for a living and they provide an answer. If they say homeowner I ban them... if it's a spambot they don't know what to put in the box so they are easy to find, and finally if someone lies it's usually easy to pick them out of the crowd because they ask questions about their own house. It's not a perfect system but overall it's worked.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I personally think that as long as painttalk is more good than bad for the paint industry as a whole, I want to support it. Lately, there have been some red flags. If we are supporting and enabling an influx of incompetent self employed painters who are not interested in learning the right way to paint and conduct business, and just want immediate answers for how to bid that job tomorrow and how to fix the siding they destroyed today...on a seemingly larger and larger scale, that would not be good for our trade.


We aren't requiring that you help anyone. If you see people who are causing problems or don't want to listen then don't respond. If they cause problems then report their post and we will look into it.
It just seems like there will always be problem people no matter what.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Why is it that a homeowner, who asks a question like "how do I paint over varnish", gets the thread locked with a polite link to the DIY forum, but a pretend painter asking the same/similar question is left to carry on?

Could you clarify what the difference is and the reasons they aren't also sent packing?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Nathan said:


> We aren't requiring that you help anyone. If you see people who are causing problems or don't want to listen then don't respond. If they cause problems then report their post and we will look into it.
> It just seems like there will always be problem people no matter what.


Ok...


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok...


lol!


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> Why is it that a homeowner, who asks a question like "how do I paint over varnish", gets the thread locked with a polite link to the DIY forum, but a pretend painter asking the same/similar question is left to carry on?
> 
> Could you clarify what the difference is and the reasons they aren't also sent packing?


We don't allow homeowners to ask DIY questions. That includes homeowners who pretend to be pros and homeowners who do not.

The difference between a pro and a homeowner / DIYer is that a pro is paid to do work for someone else and the DIYer is "Doing it themselves".

I'm not sure how you find out every person who is pretending to be a pro and isn't but I think you can usually tell by how they post a question. At that point report the post and the moderators will close the thread down and ban that person.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Nathan said:
> 
> 
> > It just seems like there will always be problem people no matter what.
> ...


That wasn't directed at you BTW... just in case that wasn't clear.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Nathan said:


> We don't allow homeowners to ask DIY questions. That includes homeowners who pretend to be pros and homeowners who do not.
> 
> The difference between a pro and a homeowner / DIYer is that a pro is paid to do work for someone else and the DIYer is "Doing it themselves".
> 
> I'm not sure how you find out every person who is pretending to be a pro and isn't but I think you can usually tell by how they post a question. At that point report the post and the moderators will close the thread down and ban that person.


:no:
Not if captian underpants is calling the shots


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Nathan said:


> I'm not sure how you find out every person who is pretending to be a pro and isn't but I think you can usually tell by how they post a question. At that point report the post and the moderators will close the thread down and ban that person.


By the type of question asked. Normally very basic knowledge that any skilled painter would learn in his first few weeks of training. 



pacificpainters said:


> I want paint over stained kitchen cabinets. Should I sand then prime then paint or just prime and paint?


Sometimes it's just a question that a hack would ask:



ptd said:


> I recently painted a fine textured ceiling that had not been painted before. I was going to roll two coats of latex ceiling paint. Each in the opposite direction 24 hrs. apart. I noticed after the two coats had dried on the ones I had completed that there were serious lap marks. So I sprayed a third coat on two of them and it seemed to minimize the lap marks. But on one large ceiling 40'X 18' I rolled one coat and sprayed the second in an attempt to avoid additional lap marks. This did not work. The room has a few sliding glass doors which lets in a lot of light and it doesn't look good.
> What can I do at this point to get these lap marks to disapeer? I don't want to do a third coat for nothing. I think the reason the other rooms look okay is that they are smaller and you can't stand back and see them.
> I would appreciate help!


*Thanks for the clarification. This is all I have been asking for recently. If these threads are locked and they are sent packing then it's taking the discontent out of the equation.* No hacks to play with so no friction. PT flows along nicely. Mods can go back to banning bots and deleting their posts.

Everybody is happy again. (well maybe lol).

Seriously, a H/O is looking to do some home improvements. If they mess it up then they have themselves to blame. When a hack comes here asking us to fix their mess, it means they either have or are about to screw up a customer's house. I have no time for these guys. Eliminate them from here and you're well on the way to a happy forum. This is one step in the right direction (imo).


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Nathan,
Thank you for taking an interest in what has been going on here lately. It is nice to finally hear from you and to hear some outline for what this site is all about. Some of has had some confusion, including myself. Many of us are hung up on the idea of what a professional painting contractor is or should be. Some of us hate the stigmatism of our trade and are looking to raise the bar and expect more out of our peers. This may not always happen but I will be dammed if I would sit by and let some of these members be the voice of our trade. It could be with lousy work pictures, working for cash, undercutting, unsafe practices, and unethical practices ….the list could go on. The bottom line is that many of us are very discouraged by how we see the professional painting contractor portrayed here on many occasions. And while the issue may not always be addressed correctly it still needs to be addressed. 

I would like to apologize to the two moderators of this forum for a few of my remarks over the weekend. I do like and respect the both of you and while I might not always agree with your posts or decisions you are running this site and if I choose to come here I need to follow your rules. 

Nathan, since I have been coming to the forum you seem to be more of a ghost and not an active participant as to what goes on around here. That is fine, but I think part of the problem this board is facing is the lack of qualified moderators. The role of a moderator should be more that walking around with a big stick. The mod’s should be able to put out fires when need be and to guide the inexperienced painters looking for advice. I have seen this from time to time from both of these mods but I honestly do not think they are qualified to run this place alone. There are many well respected members here that I think would make a great addition to the moderator group that are highly skilled businessmen and painting contractors. I am sorry DaArch and PWG but painting contractor moderators is what this site needs. 

Thanks to all of you that pm’ed, emailed or called me the last couple of days. I do care about this industry, different paint forums and what direction they are all going in. We are facing difficult economic times and education and support will help all of us become more successful contractors. I look forward to continue posting here and hope that Nathan’s changes will help to improve the site for those of us that care. But if the site continues its downward spiral I am afraid many of its worthwhile contributors will disappear. 

Thanks


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Nathan,
> Nathan, since I have been coming to the forum you seem to be more of a ghost and not an active participant as to what goes on around here. That is fine, but I think part of the problem this board is facing is the lack of qualified moderators. The role of a moderator should be more that walking around with a big stick. The mod’s should be able to put out fires when need be and to guide the inexperienced painters looking for advice. I have seen this from time to time from both of these mods but I honestly do not think they are qualified to run this place alone. There are many well respected members here that I think would make a great addition to the moderator group that are highly skilled businessmen and painting contractors. I am sorry DaArch and PWG but painting contractor moderators is what this site needs.


I agree Chris this is what I was saying in some thread last week....more mods...and different techniques...I have seen it work, this place is like the wild west...


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

Of course they'll listen to the boss... 

But when I go on the construction site to tell my workers something, I'm invisible.


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Nathan,
> Thank you for taking an interest in what has been going on here lately. It is nice to finally hear from you and to hear some outline for what this site is all about. Some of has had some confusion, including myself. Many of us are hung up on the idea of what a professional painting contractor is or should be. Some of us hate the stigmatism of our trade and are looking to raise the bar and expect more out of our peers. This may not always happen but I will be dammed if I would sit by and let some of these members be the voice of our trade. It could be with lousy work pictures, working for cash, undercutting, unsafe practices, and unethical practices ….the list could go on. The bottom line is that many of us are very discouraged by how we see the professional painting contractor portrayed here on many occasions. And while the issue may not always be addressed correctly it still needs to be addressed.
> 
> 
> Thanks


:thumbsup:


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> By the type of question asked. Normally very basic knowledge that any skilled painter would learn in his first few weeks of training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If something is really basic and obviously a homeowner then report it and we will close the thread down and ban them. Sometimes it's a tough judgement call and sometimes we screw up but overall I think things go pretty well. The only thing I ask is that you do just report a post when it's a homeowner and not "flame" them if that makes sense.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

A new mod or two is a pretty good idea. I think PWG and Arch do alright for the most part, PWG is'nt on a whole lot lately ( I could be mistake ) and Slick is rarely on. Arch is quick to shut down threads. Maybe some new blood to add some balance could be good.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I agree! more NEW mods!


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

I think it goes back to self policing. If you don't like it, don't reply and don't provide any insight. I think the mods do a good job. They don't come across as Big Brother and tend to give enough rope to let the potential hack hang themselves.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

fresh coat said:


> I think it goes back to self policing. If you don't like it, don't reply and don't provide any insight. I think the mods do a good job. They don't come across as Big Brother and tend to give enough rope to let the potential hack hang themselves.


agreed:thumbsup:


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Some of has had some confusion, including myself. Many of us are hung up on the idea of what a professional painting contractor is or should be. Some of us hate the stigmatism of our trade and are looking to raise the bar and expect more out of our peers. This may not always happen but I will be dammed if I would sit by and let some of these members be the voice of our trade. It could be with lousy work pictures, working for cash, undercutting, unsafe practices, and unethical practices ….the list could go on. The bottom line is that many of us are very discouraged by how we see the professional painting contractor portrayed here on many occasions. And while the issue may not always be addressed correctly it still needs to be addressed.


Great, don't sit back and let it go. Help them out and make them into better contractors. Please don't give paint contractors a bad name by jumping all over them, show people your professionalism. You can't control what others do but you can control your own actions. That's all I'm asking. 



NEPS.US said:


> That is fine, but I think part of the problem this board is facing is the lack of qualified moderators.


If the site needs more moderators I'll talk to the mod staff and see who they suggest. I think the current team is doing a great job and any lack of direction is my fault and not theirs. Overall we need to do a better job of self moderating as a community. When someone breaks our posting rules or when a homeowner joins it would be great if the community reported the post so the mods could take action instead of taking matters into your own hands. That way the site remains civil and clean of problems. 




NEPS.US said:


> But if the site continues its downward spiral I am afraid many of its worthwhile contributors will disappear.


No site is perfect and no one site can please everyone. In reality nothing has changed and the same rules and ideas that have always run this site still apply. The only thing I'm trying to do is make sure everyone understands those posting rules. If the site isn't a fit for some people that's just the way it goes. In the end you'll lose even more people by trying to please everyone. I hope everyone stays and enjoys the site but I can't control that.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

That's what I expected. No change.

You should be a politician.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> That's what I expected. No change.
> 
> You should be a politician.


The change is that people have forgotten the rules and we are reapplying them. It's up to the members if they like the rules or not. Frankly, they are pretty simple rules of respecting each other and for the site to be for pros only.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Nathan

I guess I am a little surprised that you are not interested in considering feedback from your longer term regulars about how the site could be improved. When I saw that you had started a thread, I hoped it may lend itself to such consideration. Some of these guys have contributed countless hours, posts, threads, pictures to this database.

What makes painttalk a great resource is great regular contributors, which painttalk has. I'd hate to see it get diluted to the point that your better contributors are discouraged from contributing. 

It may well be that your goals for the site are not the same as some of the regulars, and since it is your site that will just have to be understood.

You mentioned in your initial post in this thread that you attended forums in years past. Many of us have seen them rise and fall. Consider the possibility that some may see pt showing some of the symptoms of those that failed. You can turn it around and blame the guys who care about preserving the quality of the content here, but that would be unfortunate. I believe that alot of the acting out is rooted in that good intention. The site, its rules and management may have to adapt to its changing size and constituency. The rules that worked 2-3 years ago may not be working now.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> :no:
> Not if captian underpants is calling the shots


If people wonder why I don't take much care these days, its because you get crap like this. The owner of the site is trying to explain the rules of posting here and this asshat pops off with this. Show some freaking respect already or go start your own forum.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Respect! Only to you my brother.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Perrsonally. I'd like to see ewing and NEPS and Vermont be moderators for awhile to see what it's like.

I think Bod Dylan put it well - even if I would be a bit more respectful with the wording:


I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That wasn't a productive post, Bill.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Nathan
> 
> I guess I am a little surprised that you are not interested in considering feedback from your longer term regulars about how the site could be improved. When I saw that you had started a thread, I hoped it may lend itself to such consideration. Some of these guys have contributed countless hours, posts, threads, pictures to this database.
> 
> ...


I'm always up for good suggestions... if you have them feel free to post them in this thread. I'm happy to take a look.

My two points so far have been... we need to run a site where everyone treats each other with respect and that this site is for pros only. If anyone can't comply with those then I'm not changing those rules... sorry. 

Believe me when I say I've studied why some of these other trade sites have failed over time. It's usually because they stop enforcing their rules evenly and they give into a vocal few. Time and time that basically kills the site off.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Fair enough, Nathan.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Ohh ya, thats just what i want to be. A Mod for a forum. I think that was on my wish list. No, my bad. 
I never wanted to change this place. And could careless what you think or delete of my post. So carry on. I dont want to get any more disrepectfull to you bill. So i will ignore you now.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Nathan said:


> I'm always up for good suggestions... if you have them feel free to post them in this thread. I'm happy to take a look.
> 
> My two points so far have been... we need to run a site where everyone treats each other with respect and that this site is for pros only. If anyone can't comply with those then I'm not changing those rules... sorry.
> 
> Believe me when I say I've studied why some of these other trade sites have failed over time. It's usually because they stop enforcing their rules evenly and they give into a vocal few. Time and time that basically kills the site off.


Nathan, I'm a realtive newbie to internet forums, I think it was only 1996 that I joined rec.models.rc.air on usenet and them various and sundry listserves, chat rooms,and bulletin boards. The ones that have failed are the ones that were hijacked from the original intent by a vocal few. the ones that survive are the ones that reamin dynamic, not by the original intent changing, but by the comings and goings of the members. 

Your assesment agrees exactly with my observations.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> That wasn't a productive post, Bill.


Not many of his posts have been. Bill stirs the pot more than anyone here and many of us have been asking why he was a moderator since day one. Just because he painted a few houses back in the 70's and he is pals with mod #1 got him the job. I've never seen a man so proud to have a title in my life. 

Does anyone ever remember anyone ever giving PWG or Slick a hard time? They earned respect with positive contributions and treating members fairly. Bill thinks he earns his with a big internet stick and pounding his chest. None of use were even addressing him in the "New Forum" thread. We were discussing what we would like to see and he kept chimming in like he pays the bills around here. We didnt want his opinion and he didnt like the out come so he closed it. Tough guy.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I think Nathan has said all he needs to say, there is always going to be people that will argue any fact to the grave. I think he has made it clear, we don't need to worry about bringing disrespect to painter trade, we just need to treat each other with respect, and know that to be respected, we need to respect all others, not just a few. Besides some of the people that are throwing stones would get a few thrown at them in given time.
Life is short! Live today.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Oh how oh how do I express this with all due respect. Oh well, please excuse if it comes across with a bit of an edge, I can't be succint without the bite. 

Interesting the people who request new mods refuse to take the resposibility and challenge. My pappy used to say something regarding the practice of complaining yet refusing to step up to the plate, but I will refrain from quoting it. I'm sure we've all heard the refrain.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'll take it as long as you step down.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its time for this "vocal few" that is contaminating this place to be eliminated. 

Take care.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

I've studied why some of these other trade sites have failed over time. It's usually because they stop enforcing their rules evenly and they give into a vocal few.

Bingo! Enforce the rules and keep your minds wide open. Just because your perceived "right way" of doing business is different then others, doesn't make them wrong or qualify them as less skilled.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

How about a new rule. If you have something to say to a specific individual that has no benefit for anyone else... send them a PM and leave the drama off the board. Not a real rule but its a good rule of thumb. Let's drop the banter and get back to the subject at hand.


----------



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Someone brought up the question the other day? Would you say this to my face?I really feel some of you guy's are like the guy's behind the curtain of Alice in Wonderland. You want to act the part of the big bad guy, when you really have been fighting some battle all your life and never can seem to win. Battles, battles, battles, it up to you my friend, if you are going to continue of not.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

johnpaint said:


> I think Nathan has said all he needs to say, there is always going to be people that will argue any fact to the grave. I think he has made it clear, we don't need to worry about bringing disrespect to painter trade, we just need to treat each other with respect, and know that to be respected, we need to respect all others, not just a few. Besides some of the people that are throwing stones would get a few thrown at them in given time.
> Life is short! Live today.


Good point John. I know I have crossed the line and let personal feelings get in the way. Sometimes because I defend my way vs. someone elses, other times because I am just being argumentative. In the end though, I try not to judge.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Nathan said:


> How about a new rule. If you have something to say to a specific individual that has no benefit for anyone else... send them a PM and leave the drama off the board. Not a real rule but its a good rule of thumb. Let's drop the banter and get back to the subject at hand.


Are you kidding me Nathan ....this is the subject. Dont skate around it. You have a "inhouse" problem. Your #2 mod is responsible for most of the banter here. This was a productive thread until he chimmed in.


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Nathen I just want to say I have seen you on the BB for close to six years, and I appreciate what you do for all of us. I think this sight is pretty good, nothing is ever going to be perfect. Its not what the forumn can do for you, but what can you do for the forumn lol


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Are you kidding me Nathan ....this is the subject. Dont skate around it. You have a "inhouse" problem. Your #2 mod is responsible for most of the banter here. This was a productive thread until he chimmed in.


I was talking to both sides when I posted that. I don't buy that any one person is responsible for "most" of anything nor do I think "he" started anything. But I do agree that everyone needs to drop the drama and discuss the topic of painting and the business behind it and stop making jabs at each other.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

My appologies for reacting .


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> Nathen I just want to say I have seen you on the BB for close to six years, and I appreciate what you do for all of us. I think this sight is pretty good, nothing is ever going to be perfect. Its not what the forumn can do for you, but what can you do for the forumn lol


Thanks Dave. I know first hand how Dave is one of those guys who will help people out who need it. When I was starting out he went out of his way to help me. That's what these sites are all about. :thumbsup:


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Dave Mac said:


> Nathen I just want to say I have seen you on the BB for close to six years, and I appreciate what you do for all of us. I think this sight is pretty good, nothing is ever going to be perfect. Its not what the forumn can do for you, but what can you do for the forumn lol


 
Oh no - now you had to go ahead get deep. How about this: I'd rather see some guilty go free vs. one innocent man wrongly go to jail (something like that). Translated to this forum: I'd rather see some hacks get free info vs. an one honest man get slighted by the almighties.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I am glad you came on today Nathan. I was having some mixed feelings about my decision to leave Sunday but now my decision has been made clear. I do not want to be a part of this site. Please delete my account.


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

here is an other idea....don't be to quick to hit the submit button...read it again first


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Slingah said:


> here is an other idea....don't be to quick to hit the submit button...read it again first


 
One of the best advices I have ever received about email is: Type it, read it, then delete it.


----------



## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I am glad you came on today Nathan. I was having some mixed feelings about my decision to leave Sunday but now my decision has been made clear. I do not want to be a part of this site. Please delete my account.



:thumbsup: 

Arrogance and ego will only take you so far. 

Nathan doesn't have to delete your account, Just quite posting.

Thanks Nathan for creating this helpful and informative site, and all who contribute, I have learned much from PT!


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

painttofish said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Arrogance and ego will only take you so far.
> 
> ...


:yes::yes::yes::yes:
It is that simple!


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*Nathan, thank you for establishing this forum, and attention to this matter.*

When I first came to PaintTalk, I was very eager to share my knowledge with this community. My understanding was that the forum was for *professional painters.*

I thought, "this is great. We can share our strengths and all become more efficient, and knowledgeable at what we do, with no downside."

It wasn't long before I realized however, that there wasn't more than 40 - 50 people on this forum who were making posts that were on par with the type of knowledge and experience indicative of a "professional" painter. 40-50 is a generous estimate, I personally have witnessed maybe a couple dozen people at the most.

There are 4,000 members, and 50 people who know what they are talking about. Something is wrong with this equation. Even if there are 100 people who qualify as legitimate professional painters, who are the other 3900, and which direction is the knowledge transferring? 

It's not transferring to the 50 people who know what they are talking about, that is for sure. Even if you only count the "active members", still the ratio is very poor.

Ultimately what is happening is, you have a small minority of experienced seasoned professional painters, teaching a vast majority of totally inexperienced people how to tackle, and complete projects, tasks, problems etc that they would normally have to hire an experienced painter for.

What exactly is our incentive to do this?

We understand your goal is to generate as much traffic as possible. But there are virtually no procedures in place to prevent people who are not painters to come on here trying to bleed valuable, life-long trade information from people who have anywhere from 10 -30 years in the trade.

In all fairness to the moderaters it is practically impossible to eliminate these people, because if they say even to the slightest degree that they are painters, the Moderaters can't kick them out because we have to take them for their word that they are full time painters, even when it is GLARINGLY obvious that the people are 100% dipped and dried in bull-puckies.

The only time the moderaters can lock a thread, or send these people to the diy section of CT, is when they are actually honest enough to tell us straight up that they are not painters.

On the EXTREMELY rare occasion that happens, I almost feel bad for the people because I appreciate their honesty, and I would rather they stay than some of the "professional painters" that bleed this forum dry.

It often takes multiple posts and time to call them out, and they usually throw a huge hissy fit because we don't want to tell them how do a job that they would otherwise have to hire us for.

The bottom line is, these people are COMPETING with us.

When hacks/homeowners/diyers/house flippers, come in here posing as painters, it gets really tiring fielding all of their extremely basic questions, and getting them out of the exact type of problems that experienced painters get PAID to know how to avoid.

Our knowledge is what makes us painters. What motivates people to hire painters, is when they try painting themselves, they run into all kinds of hassles, problems, material and tool issues that painters with experience have learned through a lot of time invested how to avoid.

If people can just come to this site, and ask us how to avoid these issues, and how to fix totally absurd hack problems they are encountering as a result of their incompetence, then what is their incentive to hire us?

We are actually SPENDING time not working to teach these people how to NOT hire us!

Hello...does this sound like a wise career move to any of the experienced, professional, legitimate painters reading this right now?

The same goes for people who want to start up a painting business with no painting background. They come here and bleed us out of information that it took us decades of hard work, perseverance and eating the cost of problems that we fixed on our own dime to make things right for our clients. Usually while telling us how stupid we are, and prancing around like they own the place.

We are supposed to teach people with no experience how to avoid these problems? And not just avoid problems, how to be most efficient, how increase profit margin, how to interact with their clients?



Let him wash surfactant off of a deck at his own expense because he painted when it was too cold.


Let him chase fisheyes out of a poly coat at his own expense because of stearates in the sandpaper.


Let him eat the cost of a job that he bid too low.


Let him sand runs off of a set of doors at his own expense because he used too large of a tip.


Let him figure out which paints flow out and cover the best at his own expense.
Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. times a million.

You wouldn't believe the huge amount of absolutely incompetent people that are members of this forum, and incompetant questions that are presented in this forum.

*It might be helpful for any of the members who share my views to start a thread devoted to the infinite sea of quotes and comments from this website that indicate the level of incompitance we regularly encounter from new members*

----------------

My goal when I began particiapting in this forum was to share my knowledge with a community of painters that had an equal amount to teach me in return.

I highly respect the knowledge of the core regulars who post here. Even when I get into heated debates with certain individuals on particular topics, I still respect their knowledge and understand that there are many areas that they have more knowledge than me. I feel an even trade of knowledge is being exchanged between the higher caliber members of this forum.

The problem is, the ratio is small compared to the members that don't know which end of the paintbrush to hold onto.

It is the experienced, committed, career invested painters that are losing on this deal.

DaArch himself has proven this point quite succinctly. I started a thread inquiring about basic wallpapering information. I wanted to do a very small, insignificant wallpaper job in an an insignificant area of a modest house.

Now I have done some wallpapering before many years ago while working for an experienced paper hanger that turned out very good, and I am a highly accomplished painter who has shared very much insight, knowledge, techniques etc. on this site.

But when I asked DaArch some very succinct questions about paper hanging basics, he answered very generously regarding the removal part of the process, but made it VERY clear that he had no intention of giving me ANY advice what so ever on the application part of the process.

Here was his response:"A professional wallcovering installer will be accomplished dealing with all your issues. It would be to your and your customer's advantage to hire a qualified professional wallcovering installer. if you tell us where you are, we could probably recommend one. If not, use the NGPP "Find a Professional Paperhanger" search ferature to find one near you:"
​Now I did not have a problem with this. I understood completely what his reasons were for not wanting to promote inexperienced paper hangers from tackling jobs without supervision, and I thanked him for the useful information he gave me.

Hmmm.

But wait a minute, essentially what he was refusing to do, is EXACTLY the same thing that he and the other administrators of this site are asking US the seasoned, experienced career painters to do.

I think the problem we experienced professional painters are facing with this issue is _*excruciatingly*_ obvious, and DaArch himself has clearly indicated his agreement with our point of view as can be attested by his own actions and ideology.


I have recently said this pertaining to the topic:"These people compete with professionals so why would a professional want to teach them how to be doing jobs they shouldn't be trying without supervision.

If they want to learn to paint, they should do what I did, which was work for an established legitimate painting company for several years.

I will be more than happy to teach them under those circumstances."

In the mean time, they give painters a bad name, they give customers unreasonable expectations, and a skewed idea of what painting is about.​Here is a link to the thread in which DaArch indicated this exact same concern and philosphy as it pertained to his OWN profession:

Calling All Wallpaper Gurus

Please also read this post I made which succinctly outlines the issue:

http://www.painttalk.com/f2/new-spraying-4785/index3/#post66875

In fact the thread is short, you should read the whole thread, it is a PERFECT (EDIT *note* see my post below to explain what I meant by perfect example, I was not referring to the individual competing as much as other issues I have raised in this thread) example of the type of people who come here wanting us to teach them how to compete with us.

Nathan, I would encourage you to read both of those threads so that you can clearly understand the issues being presented by the experienced professionals of this forum, and that even representatives of *your* website, clearly agree that responsable tradesman do not encourage/promote inexperienced and unsupervised persons to proceed blindly into tasks encompassed by their trade, and they do not disseminate valuable information to inexperienced persons who are not willing to go work for an extablished legitimate contractor to learn their trade.

This outlines the problem. Something needs to be done to fix it, even if we raise the caliber of the members of this forum, I am still concerned with it being a free information database for anyone else who wants to lurk.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

-LC.

:gunsmilie::boxing: :sorcerer: :shuriken: :2guns: 

..........(all of the above)............


----------



## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

uh.. I am all over that thread.. hope you not talking bout me LC. I dunno what needs to be done, I have always liked being able to talk to those who are more experienced than I. I have a pretty diverse range of talents/experience.. but like Lacquer.. never sprayed it. I HAVE worked with some paints/coatings that 99% of the people here will never get the chance to work with. If we "as professionals" can share our information with each other freely, I think this board would be even better than it is.

:thumbsup: thanks for the forum(S) nathan!


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

nEighter said:


> uh.. I am all over that thread.. hope you not talking bout me LC.


I am not sure which thread you are referring too, but I am not talking about you. You were included in the core group of regulars I listed before who I thought were valuable contributors.


----------



## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

:thumbsup: it was that last link.. it is all good though man.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

*Slight revision:*

I am tired, and haven't read that thread in a long time.

When I said it was a "PERFECT" example of people who want us to teach them to compete with us, I had forgotten that guy was just asking how to paint trim in a bathroom.

What I was referring to that it was a perfect example of is what I referred to earlier in my post about how people who aren't painters want us to give them info, then they aren't happy when we don't oblige them.

That was the part I was referring to that the thread was a perfect example of. Not that the thread was a perfect example of people wanting to compete with us.

Everyone knows there are 100's of really pertinent examples of that on this site, I can think of several threads right off the bat where people with no expereinced who are involved with projects like kitchen cabinets, gymnasiums etc, want us to teach them/bail them out etc.


----------



## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh I agree with you. Too bad that we don't know true intentions some times. I have been beat up this year (WAY more so than in years past) about numbers. I have been really living thin REALLY to pass time till the next job. It does effect us professionals, but I don't believe you have to be a member of painttalk to view content. A car forum I am on (and alot of other forums) you have to be a member, sign up and wait for you to be ok'd to be able to view content. Don't know if that is right for this forum, but would serve a purpose. HGTV and the like have really put it into everyone's head that they don't need a pro to do work for them. A person can only shake their head at that. My insurance agent (home auto) wants to do all the painting himself on his NEW home. Why? Why do that to yourself? To your home? Why destroy a new home? Pros are pros for a reason. People forget what it is to be a pro, why it is they need a pro and what pros do is NOT easy or easily copied.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Nathan said:


> If something is really basic and obviously a homeowner then report it and we will close the thread down and ban them. Sometimes it's a tough judgement call and sometimes we screw up but overall I think things go pretty well. The only thing I ask is that you do just report a post when it's a homeowner and not "flame" them if that makes sense.


I note you keep refering to 'homeowner'. Did I misunderstand what I interpreted your previous response to include obvious hacks?

I don't think any (or many) homeowner's have been flamed on here. Hacks, on the other hand...


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Funny, (sad?), how this thread turned into a moderator issue. I didnt think moderators were the core issue of the problems around here lately. I personally dont care who is moderating the forum. I think the issue, or at least part of it, is us moderating ourselves. Is it really that hard?

There have been some really good suggestions in this thread on thinking out our replies before we hit the submit button. I've done it myself numerous times. If you cant control yourself, send it in a pm as has been suggested a few times.

I've been accused of being "vanilla, Sweden, Switzerland, etc., in my posts here. Which, I guess, is to say I take a neutral stance. If these tags are warranted by my trying to be openminded and putting myself in others shoes to try and understand what they're going through, then so be it. But, I will not be neutral concerning the integrity of this forum. 

In defense of the Mods; it doesnt take much to figure out where some of these threads are going, and its probably best to shut them down before they get personal and out of hand. Remember... a public forum.

I think its a shame to watch some of the long time members here leave the forum, but thats their choice, for whatever reason. Sometimes you dont always get your way...fact of life people.

There will always be changes.


----------



## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

I have gained greatly from this forum and hope to give back more often.
I seriously hope VP & Neps stay around...
I in no way intended to say the mods here are not doing a good job...just think a few more could help...how could it hurt...
My votes would be for Wolfgang, Last Craftsman and DeanV....:yes:


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Slingah said:


> I have gained greatly from this forum and hope to give back more often.
> I seriously hope VP & Neps stay around...
> I in no way intended to say the mods here are not doing a good job...just think a few more could help...how could it hurt...
> My votes would be for Wolfgang, Last Craftsman and DeanV....:yes:


:thumbsup:


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Can understand where one may not want to share thier own hard won knowledge with others.

But let's be real. The vast resources of the internet allow people to obtain that knowledge. The best that can happen is that they may not obtain the knowledge they seek here.

It still gets back to members own personal freedom. The freedom to partake in spreading that knowledge or keeping it to themselves. You have that freedom of choice. But by NOT allowing other members to spread knowledge as they see fit, you restrict thier freedom.

That freedom is a double edge sword, we all love ours and sometimes are willing to restrict others, but when our freedom is restricted, we tend to get defensive.

Somebody used Sev as an example of what is wrong here. Like it or not he still grows his business. He has a website. He may even be licensed. Would like to think that is in part due to the help and hate he received from the members here. 

Maybe he is now a better painter and businessman because of us. You don't have to like him, but did we stop him from becoming the painter he wanted to become? Are we going to stop anybody with that true desire?

We all started out with nothing, zip, zero, nada as far as knowledge of painting and the painting business. Would you have liked to be treated the way some here have been treated? (am all for some good natured ribbing)

Back to freedom; 
You have the freedom to not participate in the threads that bore, intimidate, anger or agitate you. Don't take the liberty of others away because you may be uncomfortable..


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I think the last few posts said it all! Part of what makes this forum great (I have visited several others:sleeping is the personality and experience of our members, I would hate to see that be stifled and would truly miss NEPS, VP and any others who left.
Now with that diversity, we have to have tolerance! I think if we do as others have suggested (think before submit, report a post, let the mods handle it), we can get back to do what we love, sharing with others who have a passion for the business!
I still want a chat room tho!


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I am glad you came on today Nathan. I was having some mixed feelings about my decision to leave Sunday but now my decision has been made clear. I do not want to be a part of this site. Please delete my account.


Well, I'm sorry to see you go. I'm not sure what I've said that made you want to leave but maybe I'm missing something. My main points are that everyone needs to respect each other on the site and that this site is for pros only. We obviously need to define pros vs non-pros a little better but we will work on that.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

What is this big secret knowledge that we are supposedly withholding? And who is withholding it?


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> There are 4,000 members, and 50 people who know what they are talking about. Something is wrong with this equation. Even if there are 100 people who qualify as legitimate professional painters, who are the other 3900, and which direction is the knowledge transferring?
> 
> It's not transferring to the 50 people who know what they are talking about, that is for sure. Even if you only count the "active members", still the ratio is very poor.


It's the nature of forums that people join and most never come back. On average we have about 120 members log in on this site a day and most of them never post either even though they do come back. That 4,000 member number is very deceiving. 



Last Craftsman said:


> there are virtually no procedures in place to prevent people who are not painters to come on here trying to bleed valuable, life-long trade information from people who have anywhere from 10 -30 years in the trade.


Well, as I've stated before I believe everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn and if someone is just here to take and not give I'd suggest ignoring their thread. But that being said... what would you suggest for preventing non-painters from joining? There's no easy way to do this.



Last Craftsman said:


> In all fairness to the moderaters it is practically impossible to eliminate these people, because if they say even to the slightest degree that they are painters, the Moderaters can't kick them out because we have to take them for their word that they are full time painters, even when it is GLARINGLY obvious that the people are 100% dipped and dried in bull-puckies.
> 
> The only time the moderaters can lock a thread, or send these people to the diy section of CT, is when they are actually honest enough to tell us straight up that they are not painters.
> 
> ...


As I've said in previous posts I'm fine to shut down a thread and send them packing to DIYChatroom.com if they ask extremely basic questions that any professional painter should know. We do it all the time on all our sites. Yes, we work on an honor system but when people make it clear that they are not a pro I want to get rid of them.

This is obviously a grey area since some guys are just learning and sometimes ask stupid questions but we will take them on a case by case basis. Here's an example. I learned to paint in Virginia and then moved down to Florida and was painting stucco homes. Frankly, I asked some pretty stupid questions because I didn't fully understand how to work with it. After a short period of time I figured it out but I'm sure if anyone looked at those posts they may have asked some questions.



Last Craftsman said:


> When hacks/homeowners/diyers/house flippers, come in here posing as painters, it gets really tiring fielding all of their extremely basic questions, and getting them out of the exact type of problems that experienced painters get PAID to know how to avoid.


We don't allow homeowners/diyers/house flippers on this site. If you see one report their post and we will send them packing. Define hack though. If your talking about a guy who is just getting started as a professional full time painter and wants to learn I'm fine with him being here. If your talking about someone who has no knowledge of his own and isn't willing to learn then I say send him packing. I have no problem with that. Never have.



Last Craftsman said:


> Our knowledge is what makes us painters. What motivates people to hire painters, is when they try painting themselves, they run into all kinds of hassles, problems, material and tool issues that painters with experience have learned through a lot of time invested how to avoid.
> 
> If people can just come to this site, and ask us how to avoid these issues, and how to fix totally absurd hack problems they are encountering as a result of their incompetence, then what is their incentive to hire us?
> 
> ...


Again, we don't allow homeowners to come here and ask DIY questions and if they do please let us know and we will close them down. I don't want those threads on this site and I don't want this to turn into a how to site. Frankly, this site is more about the business of painting than the actual process anyways although technical discussions do occur. 

That being said you need to understand that the internet has brought a lot of knowledge to anyone who wants it. This site wont be their how to source but they can get it from 100s of other sources. I think its your experience that people are paying for more than just straight book knowledge. That experience can't be copied by a new guy in the industry and no homeowner can gain it. That's why they hire you and not the other guy. My point is that the internet is here to stay and the knowledge is going to be accessible to anyone who wants it one way or the other. If you embrace that, use it to your advantage, and focus on your business then there is no way anyone else can compete with you.



Last Craftsman said:


> The same goes for people who want to start up a painting business with no painting background. They come here and bleed us out of information that it took us decades of hard work, perseverance and eating the cost of problems that we fixed on our own dime to make things right for our clients. Usually while telling us how stupid we are, and prancing around like they own the place.
> 
> We are supposed to teach people with no experience how to avoid these problems? And not just avoid problems, how to be most efficient, how increase profit margin, how to interact with their clients?


If you don't want to help someone out then don't. If they ask a stupid question and it's obvious that they need more experience then I think it would be fine to tell them what you really think.... that they should go work for a painting company for a few years and learn the trade before they screw something up. All I'm asking in this thread to everyone on this site is that it remains civil and respectful. If they don't want to hear it ignore them and if it gets bad report them to us. But if someone wants to help them I'm OK with that too. It's up to you if you want to play that part or not. 




Last Craftsman said:


> But wait a minute, essentially what he was refusing to do, is EXACTLY the same thing that he and the other administrators of this site are asking US the seasoned, experienced career painters to do.


When did I ask you to do that? If you don't want to help someone then don't respond. Maybe I'm missing something here but I'm not asking anyone to do anything. If you find a topic your interested in then respond... if it doesn't don't. If no one responded to basic questions then those people would leave and go somewhere else for that info which would be good.


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> I note you keep refering to 'homeowner'. Did I misunderstand what I interpreted your previous response to include obvious hacks?
> 
> I don't think any (or many) homeowner's have been flamed on here. Hacks, on the other hand...


When I say homeowner I'm talking about people who are doing it themselves for themselves. DIY posts. 

Hacks are harder to define. I wouldn't call someone who is new to the trade and trying to learn a hack. I would call someone who has no desire to learn and is hurting other people by screwing up their houses a hack.


----------



## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

I have to go to work, so I don't have time right now to fully respond. 

There are TONS of threads started by people who OBVIOUSLY have no idea how to paint. 

NONE of the experienced tradesman here will not deny that.

Tooled up pointed out just a FEW from recently. 

Nathan, I think you are being very optimistic about the "professional full-time" status of a large percentage of the members of this forum.



Nathan said:


> That 4,000 member number is very deceiving.


I addressed this when I said if if you only count the active members, the ratio of experienced to non-experienced members is very poor.



Nathan said:


> Well, as I've stated before I believe everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn and if someone is just here to take and not give I'd suggest ignoring their thread.


You must have missed the part where I said these things:"When I first came to PaintTalk, I was very eager to share my knowledge with this community. My understanding was that the forum was for professional painters.

I thought, "this is great. We can share our strengths and all become more efficient, and knowledgeable at what we do, with no downside."

-----------​"I highly respect the knowledge of the core regulars who post here. Even when I get into heated debates with certain individuals on particular topics, I still respect their knowledge and understand that there are many areas that they have more knowledge than me. I feel an even trade of knowledge is being exchanged between the higher caliber members of this forum."​I think the concept that I might be here just to take and not to give is a little off the mark. I'll chalk it up to the fact that it was a long post and you might not have read it all.

It was A long, well thought, out, _time invested post_. *You are welcome by the way*, for me taking such an interest in the dynamics and health of the forum and it's intended demographic. 

I have provided a plethora of very detailed well thought out content for this site with brisk enthusiasm the eagerness to share and be a part of the community.

I will assume that suggesting that I might only be here to take, and not to give was not an intentional spin.



Nathan said:


> But that being said... what would you suggest for preventing non-painters from joining? There's no easy way to do this.


I have some ideas that I do not have time to expound on now. 



Nathan said:


> As I've said in previous posts I'm fine to shut down a thread and send them packing to DIYChatroom.com if they ask extremely basic questions that any professional painter should know.


And as I said before, the problem with this is it takes a lot of discretion and oversight from the mods, once someone claims to be a painter, the mods have a very hard time booting them, even if it's totally obvious they are lying. 




Nathan said:


> We do it all the time on all our sites. Yes, we work on an honor system but when people make it clear that they are not a pro I want to get rid of them.


And the mods do a very good job of getting rid of people when they actually are up front and tell us they are not painters. I have no complaints there.



Nathan said:


> I learned to paint in Virginia and then moved down to Florida and was painting stucco homes. Frankly, I asked some pretty stupid questions because I didn't fully understand how to work with it. After a short period of time I figured it out but I'm sure if anyone looked at those posts they may have asked some questions.


This is not the type of situation I am talking about. What you just described is a *excellent* example of EXACTLY the type of information exchange that I joined this site to be a part of. Professional painters with more experience in one area of painting, trading knowledge with professional painters who have more experience in an other area of painting.




Nathan said:


> We don't allow homeowners/diyers/house flippers on this site.


You are being very optimistic about the reality of enforcing this.



Nathan said:


> Frankly, this site is more about the business of painting than the actual process anyways although technical discussions do occur.


Fair enough. If this is the intended point of the site, I think it would behoove the professional painters of this site to understand this. There is a very significant amount of posting of trade knowledge that occurs on this site.

There are several actual _categories_ named for just such a purpose, and only one named for the business aspect. 

------------------

I would suggest that any professional painter reading this who freely shares their career invested knowledge on this site should the time to review this portion of the PaintTalk TOS:

Upon posting any content on Paint Talk, you grant Paint Talk the non-exclusive right to publish, modify and use such content solely for the purpose of displaying such content.

------------------




Nathan said:


> the internet has brought a lot of knowledge to anyone who wants it. This site wont be their how to source


Again, I think you are being optimistic.



Nathan said:


> I think its your experience that people are paying for more than just straight book knowledge. That experience can't be copied by a new guy in the industry and no homeowner can gain it. That's why they hire you and not the other guy.


Nathan I would be VERY interested for you to address the example I gave where DaArch chose NOT to give me information that pertained to his trade.

By your very reasoning, he should have had no problem with it.




Nathan said:


> When did I ask you to do that? If you don't want to help someone then don't respond.


You mean LITERALLY? I stand corrected, you did not _literally_ ask us to provide people with information. It is an issue of semantics. "we are being asked" was a way of saying that the forum was set up for us to do just that, and ultimately the owners of the site benefit from us doing just that.

------------

Nathan, I appreciate your time, and I hope that you review in earnest some of the issues I have brought forth, with the intention of understanding the possible effect these issues have on the professional experienced legitimate painters who frequent these forums.

-LC.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

:blink: I hate to see the full reply.
LC, there not going to budge so just let go and her/ass N8


----------



## Nathan (Mar 28, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Nathan said:
> 
> 
> > Well, as I've stated before I believe everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn and if someone is just here to take and not give I'd suggest ignoring their thread.
> ...


You misread my post. That wasn't directed at you, I was talking about the people who you said are just here to take knowledge from the vets (not a direct quote but you get the idea). I was saying don't respond to their threads and ignore them if you think they are just hear to take and not give as well. 



Last Craftsman said:


> I have some ideas that I do not have time to expound on now.


Great, I look forward to reading them.



Last Craftsman said:


> You are being very optimistic about the reality of enforcing this.


Report them and we will shut them down. Maybe we need to work on pulling the trigger faster and if that's the case then fine... we will work on it. I'm always open to suggestions and feedback as long as they are constructive. 



Last Craftsman said:


> I would suggest that any professional painter reading this who freely shares their career invested knowledge on this site should the time to review this portion of the PaintTalk TOS:
> 
> Upon posting any content on Paint Talk, you grant Paint Talk the non-exclusive right to publish, modify and use such content solely for the purpose of displaying such content.


If we didn't have that clause we couldn't run this site. The fact that your reading posts means we have the right to publish (display on our website) the post that you made. If we didn't have that right there would be nothing to read. It's lawyer speak for we are a public forum.



Last Craftsman said:


> Nathan I would be VERY interested for you to address the example I gave where DaArch chose NOT to give me information that pertained to his trade.
> 
> By your very reasoning, he should have had no problem with it.


My desire that people freely share information doesn't mean it's a requirement. If he doesn't want to share then he shouldn't. That's been my point to some of you as well... your acting like we require you to respond to threads that you have no interest in. That's not the case. If you don't want to respond don't. 



Last Craftsman said:


> You mean LITERALLY? I stand corrected, you did not _literally_ ask us to provide people with information. It is an issue of semantics. "we are being asked" was a way of saying that the forum was set up for us to do just that, and ultimately the owners of the site benefit from us doing just that.


OK, I keep being accused of being to optimistic for my vision of the site and your right... my vision is grand and probably will never come to be. But either way I think these sites help people. Let me turn the tables a bit though. I think your being a bit optimistic that these forums can ever be as refined as you envision them to be. Yes, we have some members who don't know what they are doing and some of them ask stupid questions. But we also have some great members who you can interact with and learn and share with. Nothing on the web is perfect, you pretty much have to decide if your willing to be apart of a non-perfect system. If not then the web (and specifically forums) aren't for you.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

It is not in my liking to defend myself in public, I was never good at lawyering. But as you are using one post of mine as an example and to set policy, it may be best to review the post and my reply.

You had a two part question in that original post, the first was about stripping, which apparently all agree I answered fully and carefully and hopefully gave you some good education. The second part was about installing an undertermined striped wallcovering in a tricky configuration. 

Here, let me quote that part:



> The job I am doing right now, the lady is trying to talk me into doing some vertical striping in the wainscoting area beneath the chair rail. It is flat wall in the space now. ( no beading/frames etc.)
> 
> I told her I prefer only doing work that I can say with 100% confidence that I know "exactly what I am doing". Despite my declaration, she still really wants me to do some kind of interesting motif under the chair rail in a hallway.
> 
> ...


Quite frankly what you were asking was to put in a nut shell how to install wallaper from A to Z . There is no way I could explain to anyone with my writing skills how to test the wall to know the correct primer, what basic tools to buy, how to determine which paste, how to balance the pattern, how to describe the difference between "wallpaper/embossed wallhanging", the use of laser levels, how to paste properly, how to butt seams, how to prevent seam creap or correct it if it does happen, and finally what wallpaper would good under the chair rail. 

It would, IMO, be like asking a framer how do you frame a house, dormers and all. 

And so, I and a few others suggested it would be to your and your customer's advantage to hire a qualified professional wallcovering installer. 

And after my post, the general consensus was that I answered your questions as fully as possible. However, you did repeat some of the installation questions again, but I choose not to dwell on the answers I had already given. I gave an answer to the fullest of my ability, I had nothing more to add. 

We have done that here with the less than experienced. We have given them as much as we can and when it appears they are really over their heads, we have advised them to seek more experience with an established painting firm. 

As I mentioned to Tooled, I did the same recently to a less than experienced paperhanger on the NGPP BB. Where some people told her to hire a REAL paperhanger, I told that there was no way to instruct her in the skills she was looking for with the written word. So I called a fellow NGPP member near her and he met with her and taught her what she wanted - no what she NEEDED - to know. And if Rich was unable to meet with her, I was ready to drive the 70 minutes to teach her myself. 

I hope that explains why I did not, nay, COULD not teach you what you needed to know for installing your wallpaper via this forum. I went as far as I could go and then offered the best solution I knew for your predicament.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

daArch said:


> As I mentioned to Tooled, I did the same recently to a less than experienced paperhanger on the NGPP BB. Where some people told her to hire a REAL paperhanger, I told that there was no way to instruct her in the skills she was looking for with the written word. So I called a fellow NGPP member near her and he met with her and taught her what she wanted - no what she NEEDED - to know. And if Rich was unable to meet with her, I was ready to drive the 70 minutes to teach her myself.


That was a rare (and generous) exception though Bill. You couldn't (nor should we) do that with everyone that joins here and who are clearly not painters asking the 'how to' questions. Infact, you cannot learn a trade in a couple of lessons so even after that she would not be a skilled paper installer. The only way to learn a trade is from hands on experience learning from another skilled worker for a few years. Anything encouragement from us is giving them a false sense of security about their abilities. 

I've said this before but I actually enjoy passing any skills that I have on to apprentices. I like to see them develop and putting the skills they have learned into action. That is the proper environment to learn a skill, not over the Internet and definitely not after or just before they bid a job that they don't have a clue how to do.


----------



## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I still think paperhanging is an artform that time hasn't messed with too much. It is something I haven't tried and don't think I ever will. Hats off to those who know how to do it. I like metal and wood too much to mess with paper, but a nice papered room pwns paint.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> That was a rare (and generous) exception though Bill. You couldn't (nor should we) do that with everyone that joins here <snip>


Pete, I think there is agreement that this is not the course of action to take toward everyone that joins here. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Nathan said we need to take each on a case by case basis. 

And you know what, there will be mistakes along the way. But I'm am sure no one wants to pick a mistake or two and use them as a blanket condemnation and proof that the system is broke. 

Maybe we should look at the other side of the coin and recall the instances where present policy has made the industry better. Perhaps we should balance the overview with more of the positive stories.


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I think too much is made of Nathan's comments.
This is a good place to hang out, so play nice.

And the moderators are fine.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I think its almost asinine to have the Mods have to defend themselves in this thread. I've read most of Bill's posts since I've been a member and have never noticed him being rude to anyone. If you ask a question about a sub-trade in this field that you have no experience in, a true professional would honestly tell you to find someone who is experienced to do the job.

How many times have any of us had to follow-up after a supposed pro to fix thier mistakes? I've asked Bill a few questions over the months concerning paper removal and hanging and always got a curteous reply. I dont know squat about wall coverings, or I should say I know enough to get me in trouble, so I refer all my WC jobs to a Pro.

My forte' is wood finishes and I cant even begin to count the hours I've spent "off the clock" testing new products for various manufacturers and suppliers. Do I feel I'm the best there is? No. 

Remember, this is a internet forum. Alot easier teaching someone standing next to you rather than trying to explain it here. So if a suggestion is made to have a competent individual do a job that you dont feel comfortable with, I'd think that is the way to go.



You owe me tree-fiddy for this reply Bill.....


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Better yet why dont we have a thread stating what the Mods duties are in its entirety and the average time they put into this forum as a Mod and member. Then lets see a "show of hands" of those who would actually like be a Mod. 

One thing you will notice with Bill is that when he is a Mod it will say so under his avatar, otherwise he will only act as a member.


That's another tree-fiddy Bill....


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> I think its almost asinine to have the Mods have to defend themselves in this thread. I've read most of Bill's posts since I've been a member and have never noticed him being rude to anyone. If you ask a question about a sub-trade in this field that you have no experience in, a true professional would honestly tell you to find someone who is experienced to do the job.
> 
> How many times have any of us had to follow-up after a supposed pro to fix thier mistakes? I've asked Bill a few questions over the months concerning paper removal and hanging and always got a curteous reply. I dont know squat about wall coverings, or I should say I know enough to get me in trouble, so I refer all my WC jobs to a Pro.
> 
> ...


You got one, if I knew what "tree-fiddy" was :confused1:

And, as much as I appreciate the comments, before you get taken to task, I readily admit that I have lost my composure and have reacted with rude and/or disrespectful remarks. I'm too old to be floating down De Nile.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Bill. 

What you (and the other guy) did there was a real kind hearted gesture. In real life, I like to help anybody however I am able to. I take my hat off to you both for doing what you did :thumbsup:

Weeding out the (erm what shall we name them? unskilled?) people who join here will often not be straight forward. Sometimes it's only after several posts that their colors show - Like the guy who asked about a sander recently. He got some advice then went out and bought one. A few posts later he's asking if it's okay to paint over the score marks he's done with the new sander. That, together with other posts that member made was a clear cut unskilled guy using this forum and it's member knowledge to try and make a living out of a skilled persons trade - And at the expense of the H/O who will be left with the mess.

I know that there will be 'borderline' cases where there's some doubt whether or not a noob is unskilled or not. That will be for the mods to figure out - \people will hopefully use the 'red button' I don't think anyone will judge you over being cautious if you're not sure. I do think that in most cases it's easily spotted, even if it is after several posts. There will also always be a slight risk that a skilled guy might get the heave-ho. It's doubtful but you never really know. There's always civilian casualties in any war.

On the upside. I have learned a lot about different techniques used on the other side of the pond to me. I think most have something to give and most have gained some new knowledge from here in one way or another. Generally speaking, a lot of good comes out the communication we have on here. Problems aren't always solved here but that being said, it's good to share that problem with others who have been there and done that and also understand the situation.

This place is a painter's heaven for any skilled worker, seasoned or not, to exchange ideas and better their skills, practically or in business. It's not a bad thing in some ways that members have had the opportunity to air their concerns on the direction the forum was going and give suggestions on how it can be improved. It's also great that Nathan has listened and clarified/changed some things to satisfy the requirements of the membership. That can only be a good thing for the future of the forum.

Can I suggest one more thing? During the registration process or adding to the T's &C's, the new member ticks a box or agrees that they have more than x (5?) years experience in their field of expertise?


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

> Can I suggest one more thing? During the registration process or adding to the T's &C's, the new member ticks a box or agrees that they have more than x (5?) years experience in their field of expertise?


A first year contractor can be here, we all have to start somewhere.
He doesn't need to know how to paint perfect. 
His painters are the ones that paint.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

George Z said:


> A first year contractor can be here, we all have to start somewhere.
> He doesn't need to know how to paint perfect.
> His painters are the ones that paint.


I think that's a gray area. I still can't get my head around how a non-painter can run a painting business. How does he estimate jobs? How does he know what procedures will be involved? How does he know which paint to use? How does he know when hiis painters are stretching a job out? Too many pitfalls for an unskilled guy to jump in as a contractor if you ask me. This is why the majority of those types of contractors fail.


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> I think that's a gray area. I still can't get my head around how a non-painter can run a painting business. How does he estimate jobs? How does he know what procedures will be involved? How does he know which paint to use? How does he know when hiis painters are stretching a job out? Too many pitfalls for an unskilled guy to jump in as a contractor if you ask me. This is why the majority of those types of contractors fail.


Believe it or not there are quite a few of these types out there. Their painting skills may be suspect though they may excel at sales and mgt. Some are more book smart than street smart, but there will always be those who survive and a few who even become successful.

Back in the late 70's and early 80's I owned a dual line motorcycle dealership, never turned a wrench on a motorcycle professionally in my entire life. I knew business and finances. Owned it for close to 4 years and sold it twice. Good money in selling something twice...


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Some are more book smart than street smart, but there will always be those who survive and a few who even become successful.


Like you say, there are some who survive. Some manage it over here too - From the ones that I've seen (not just in painting but in other areas where you would expect some sort of skill to be involved), the owners are salesmen and good at what they do. The service they provide is way overpriced but their sales skill (bsh!t) convinces their clients that they are getting something that no other company can provide and they'll be the envy of all their neighbors.


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

blah blah blah edit.


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> I am glad you came on today Nathan. I was having some mixed feelings about my decision to leave Sunday but now my decision has been made clear. I do not want to be a part of this site. Please delete my account.


awwwwww.

lol.

I am going to miss your endless barrage of childish insults and _*far*_ from accurate judgments about me and my skills.


P.S.Be sure to take your buddies with you...it tends to get lonely outside the gates of internetville


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Wise:

____________________________________________________________-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

the line Buddy, the line.


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Wise:
> 
> ____________________________________________________________-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ...



My bad, I misread the title and thought it said*: "NEPS finally got some attention from the Admin. and is now leaving"*.

Again I apologize.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

TooledUp said:


> I think that's a gray area. I still can't get my head around how a non-painter can run a painting business. How does he estimate jobs? How does he know what procedures will be involved? How does he know which paint to use? How does he know when hiis painters are stretching a job out? Too many pitfalls for an unskilled guy to jump in as a contractor if you ask me. This is why the majority of those types of contractors fail.


You could marry a painter!


Or buy a Franchise!

Or
Look at Brian, he has been a great asset to this forum.

But I understand what you are saying.


----------



## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> If people wonder why I don't take much care these days, its because you get crap like this. The owner of the site is trying to explain the rules of posting here and this asshat pops off with this. Show some freaking respect already or go start your own forum.


Well put! :thumbup::thumbsup::notworthy: The fav 5 :whistling2maybe 2) don't like to referenced, so be careful. The forum in my opinion is great, just a few guys like to be chidults once in awhile.


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I think that's a gray area. I still can't get my head around how a non-painter can run a painting business. How does he estimate jobs? 

Hires a good estimator

How does he know when hiis painters are stretching a job out? 

Great job managers and strict budgets

Too many pitfalls for an unskilled guy to jump in as a contractor if you ask me. This is why the majority of those types of contractors fail

The majority of any new businesses fail


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

A lot of successful companies are owned by people who know nothing more than how to run a business. 
Hiring a skilled staff to operate the equipment is dreamy!


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

George Z said:


> I think that's a gray area. I still can't get my head around how a non-painter can run a painting business. How does he estimate jobs?
> 
> Hires a good estimator
> 
> ...


:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:
All very valid points. I was in the mist of typing something to this effect. But, you beat me to it and definitely phrased it better then I would have. Nice post.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Please gentlemen, let's not bash those who have left. Let's not stoop to the same level. I am looking forward to a better PT.

thanks.


----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

daArch said:


> Please gentlemen, let's not bash those who have left. Let's not stoop to the same level. I am looking forward to a better PT.
> 
> thanks.


:whistling2:


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

WisePainter said:


> awwwwww.
> 
> lol.
> 
> ...


Don't complain, just get out of here! Bye.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Let me make one thing clear, I have very little use for the franchise model, whether it be donuts, hamburgs, or painting.

And let me make another thing clear, we are mostly talking about Fresh Coat here. He's a big boy, he has a thick skin, he's intelligent, so don't pretend you're talking about anyone else. 

As much as I have no use for the franchise model, I respect Fresh for not BS'ing us about what he wants to do. I also think I like him as a person, or at least that's been indicated by the humorous PM's we've been having. He wants to runs a PAINTING BUSINESS!. That fits into the accepted people allowed on this site. Period.

I agree, and he agrees, he knows not the techincal aspects of the trade. He's trying to be a BUSINESS man who runs a painting business by hiring PAINTERS. That's not my preference, and it may not be yours. But it is his.

Now let's look at it from the other angle. I am a slug. A technician. Never went to business school. So after a few years of learning the techinal side, I want to run a painting/wallcovering business. All who fit that description raise your hand. Well, suppose Fresh is a business guru willing to share his business expertise on the internet. But wait an minute, I don't have no business experience, I am a slug. 

Why should he give ME any help ?

gentlemen, the shoes fit on all feet.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

Ok nathan can you please lock this thread, I can see some issues coming up..

Private ones, we already have people leaving...

Lets all get along
!:jester:


----------



## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)




----------



## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

PainterGuy said:


> Don't complain, just get out of here! Bye.


lol, nice pics ya' hack (with a *new user name* btw)...the exits are clearly marked for your immediate use.

I here told that NATHAN has established a real nice DIY forum, they can help you with that paint spill issues there Tex.

:thumbsup:


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

George Z said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


Thank you! cmon guys I've really taken a liking in you guys! I need somewhere to realease my painter problems.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> lol, nice pics ya' hack (with a *new user name* btw)...the exits are clearly marked for your immediate use.
> 
> I here told that NATHAN has established a real nice DIY forum, they can help you with that paint spill issues there Tex.
> 
> :thumbsup:


What the hell you talking about. Your the one that leads the way for hacks. You got those lines cleaned up yet?


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

Those DIY people don't know how to change a lightbulb. No offense. Really.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> What the hell you talking about. Your the one that leads the way for hacks. You got those lines cleaned up yet?


Thanks:thumbup: what sort of hacks though?


----------



## deach (May 11, 2008)

Does anyone else here think this has gone long enough? #1 if you don't wanna be here leave. #2 if you don't like the mods or the way they do things leave. #3 if you feel you're above every other painter in the world and know everything about this trade (both paper hanging and painting), and then SEO, Marketing, Business, Finance,and the thousands of other things involved (and I mean know everything about them) just leave you have nothing to ever learn here and from what I've seen most aren't willing to help, they'd rather offer a smart assed answer. 

I've seen lots of good brush painters that have successful business's that could use some help learning about spraying. Maybe there's that guy that never has removed wallpaper before and finally encounters that job. He isn't a hack he's doing something he's (she's) never done up till that point. 

It's not whether someone in your area knows how to do these things that land them the jobs anyway. It's how they present themselves to the customer and explain to that customer "why you should hire me rather than the other person". 

We're offered a nice forum here to participate in totally free of charge. (and personally I thank all involved that made that happen). Perhaps we could act like we want to be here rather than just complaining all the time. 

I really thought long and hard before I posted this and read thru every single post here. Common people for a supposed bunch of professionals, we look pretty poor in this one.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

deach said:


> Does anyone else here think this has gone long enough? #1 if you don't wanna be here leave. #2 if you don't like the mods or the way they do things leave. #3 if you feel you're above every other painter in the world and know everything about this trade (both paper hanging and painting), and then SEO, Marketing, Business, Finance,and the thousands of other things involved (and I mean know everything about them) just leave you have nothing to ever learn here and from what I've seen most aren't willing to help, they'd rather offer a smart assed answer.
> 
> I've seen lots of good brush painters that have successful business's that could use some help learning about spraying. Maybe there's that guy that never has removed wallpaper before and finally encounters that job. He isn't a hack he's doing something he's (she's) never done up till that point.
> 
> ...



Agreed 100% Why can't we just all get along?? This is how forums lose people, over a stupid post. Let's move on before it gets nasty, thats why I want this post locked before it gets any longer, besides it's not even on topic.


----------



## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

daArch said:


> Let me make one thing clear, I have very little use for the franchise model, whether it be donuts, hamburgs, or painting.
> 
> And let me make another thing clear, we are mostly talking about Fresh Coat here. He's a big boy, he has a thick skin, he's intelligent, so don't pretend you're talking about anyone else.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks DaArch, but I am by no means a biz guru. Just hoping to exchange some biz ideas. I've got some insight into painting but nowhere near that of the skilled guys I employ. They are awesome. A lot of these folks are talking from a painter's stand point and I am appreciative of their input. In addition, I appreciate the insight of folks that have built an organization (Ken Fenner, George Z, etc...). Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

deach said:


> Does anyone else here think this has gone long enough? #1 if you don't wanna be here leave. #2 if you don't like the mods or the way they do things leave. #3 if you feel you're above every other painter in the world and know everything about this trade (both paper hanging and painting), and then SEO, Marketing, Business, Finance,and the thousands of other things involved (and I mean know everything about them) just leave you have nothing to ever learn here and from what I've seen most aren't willing to help, they'd rather offer a smart assed answer.
> 
> I've seen lots of good brush painters that have successful business's that could use some help learning about spraying. Maybe there's that guy that never has removed wallpaper before and finally encounters that job. He isn't a hack he's doing something he's (she's) never done up till that point.
> 
> ...


:clap::clap: Thank you!


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

it's been suggested, but I am going to ask before it happens.

Will anyone mind if i close this thread. I think we've come a good place of closure.


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

daArch said:


> it's been suggested, but I am going to ask before it happens.
> 
> Will anyone mind if i close this thread. I think we've come a good place of closure.


Please do! I've been saying that already. How do you close a thread btw?


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

You have to have the powers of the elders!

Yep, I think we have run the course on this one!



IBTL!


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Another dead thread? IBTL


----------



## PainterGuy (Jun 29, 2009)

RCP said:


> You have to have the powers of the elders!
> 
> Yep, I think we have run the course on this one!
> 
> ...


Okay....... it's a wrap!










EDIT: That's the best thread close I've seen - I leaving it - thanks PainterGuy, 
-Bill


----------

