# Is primer a thing anymore?



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I have a repeat customer who's finishing his basement and wants me to paint the walls and ceilings once the drywall and texture is finished. (Shout out for repeat customers!)

Anyways, the texture will probably be knockdown. 

So, is priming even a _thing_ anymore with the high-quality acrylics?

Oh and is cashmere low voc? I've never used it. I've always used Natura for higher end jobs, but my local supplier had the wonderful idea of bringing in the new valspar lines so I was going to go with SW from the next town.
Actually, I'm going to check the other BM dealer in that town... I want to stick with Natura. No smell, covers like magic.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

If you use Cashmere it is. It's one of the few top line paints left that's Not specced to go directly on drywall. I've found it does not have very good hold-out at all. It's one of the few paints I've tried that Crackshot will flash through. 

I used Natura in my own home over some new wallboards. Two generous coats did fine. Quite well actually.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I typically still use the paints that are just paints. And for new surfaces I always prime. I also use specialty primers a lot like Xim's UMA and BIN's shellac based primer. Never have been a big one for priming to hide exisitng colors.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> I typically still use the paints that are just paints. And for new surfaces I always prime. I also use specialty primers a lot like Xim's UMA and BIN's shellac based primer. Never have been a big one for priming to hide exisitng colors.


I'd agree with everything here. I'd swear though, it's getting harder to find paints that don't say they are primers as well.

I'd generally agree that priming to kill an existing colour can be overkill as products like Aura have such deep colour saturation. Priming used to be the way I'd have done this in the past, it just isn't necessary anymore.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Josh is right on the money. If you use Cashmere you have to prime. It's an awesome paint but it's just paint and nothing more. What sheen are you using? Every sheen in that line is has a tad more sheen than others. The flat is more of a matte, the low luster is a very shiney version of satin, and the medium luster is inbetween a semi gloss and gloss. :yes:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

For a nice even coat priming is key. For basements priming is key because of the damp moisture. 

Priming is always a better option on NEW drywall. Yes, all flats and eggshells are self priming but that doesn't mean that they are primers.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Primers are for unfinished substrates. Has this painting best practice changed in the last ten years?

I also believe that primer/finishes are for painting over priviously painted surfaces, and maybe a patch here and there. I also think flat paints are the best so called primer/finishes, and painting over the occassional un primed patch with flat, isn't that big of a deal.

Acrylic DTM's have a slight exemption over bare substrates, but I still prefer a primer that can provide a better barrier and bond. Again, primer/finishes are purely production products and not necessarily high quality products. IMO.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Is cashmere considered low voc now? 
They have a 5 week old new born and a 2 yr old. 
I'd rather go with Natura. I've applied it a lot and think it's the best interior wall paint you can get, and it's a tad easier to apply than aura IMO. Plus no odor. 

I was thinking that if I used Natura, I really wouldn't need to prime. This stuff bonds just as good as any primer, has great hide... I know it would look great and last, but there's a part of me that feels like it's wrong not to prime, even when that very primer I'd apply could very well be an INFERIOR coating than just the Natura-to-bare-drywall/mud!

But yeah, I wouldn't consider this with just any paint...


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

I use Casmere almost exclusively. I like it a lot. However, hold-out is not good. I don't suggest using it in your application. 

I haven't used Natura. If what you are saying about it is true, go that route.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Go with Natura.

From a fellow Natura fan


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Like epretot I use it almost exclusively. It's a low VOC paint and unlike some zero VOC paints I've used it has very little odor.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I like Natura. Harmony has the lowest odor, IMO. It's speced for every hospital in my area. It's a good paint.

I did hear mention that they may discontinue Natura.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Exciting news TJ! Your post made it to the Paint Talk Facebook page.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Exciting news TJ! Your post made it to the Paint Talk Facebook page.


Discouraging news Tj... This thread has 14 responses and the FB has 25...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Exciting news TJ! Your post made it to the Paint Talk Facebook page.





wje said:


> Discouraging news Tj... This thread has 14 responses and the FB has 25...


Lol, I didn't know that PT FB "was a thing", or existed. 

So, you're telling me about a sort of parallel universe of painttalk?
That's kinda trippy.
But, oddly, knowing my thread made it to the other side, boosts my ego, when it really shouldn't.

EDIT: Hey, I checked out the fb thing. I read my own thread on there too. I learned a cool trick, you can tint your primer!

BTW Gabe, I know you are very pro-primer everything, and I respect that. Have you used Natura though?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

How is Harmony as a paint, besides it's low odor componet?


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Lol, I didn't know that PT FB "was a thing", or existed.
> 
> So, you're telling me about a sort of parallel universe of painttalk?
> That's kinda trippy.
> ...


I checked it out for the first time today also... 

Statistically though, it seems almost twice as many people are willing to engage in the thought of painttalk, rather than joining and engaging here..

If you hadn't checked out the fb page, you still would not have known you could tint the primer. 

We can most definitely use that kind of knowledge around here. ...


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> How is Harmony as a paint, besides it's low odor componet?


Used it on a decent sized job. Nice paint IMO.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> How is Harmony as a paint, besides it's low odor componet?


It's not bad but Cashmere is way better imho.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> BTW Gabe, I know you are very pro-primer everything, and I respect that. Have you used Natura though?


I prime new, drywall, steel, wood, most stucco, and anything coated with oil base. Never tried Natura because I heard it was going away.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I'd prime the raw rock with Gardz, then apply 2 coats of Natura or Cashmere.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ProWallGuy said:


> I'd prime the raw rock with Gardz, then apply 2 coats of Natura or Cashmere.


I really am a big fan of Gardz too. The only deal is they are pretty concerned about odor for their young kids.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We are priming doors and base today. I am a firm believer in priming then painting.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

cdpainting said:


> We are priming doors and base today. I am a firm believer in priming then painting.


Yeah I agree with priming trim first. I consider that a different level than drywall and mud when using a premium level acrylic like Natura.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I can't remember the last time we used primer on drywall. Why? Waste of time and material. I know of outfits that do. Prime the drywall with primer. Even for flat! Lol For Flat? Good for me. Easy Win. Gotta take the easy ones when u get em.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> I can't remember the last time we used primer on drywall. Why? Waste of time and material. I know of outfits that do. Prime the drywall with primer. Even for flat! Lol For Flat? Good for me. Easy Win. Gotta take the easy ones when u get em.


Best practices dictates priming drywall with the appropriate primer. Anything less, amounts to applying production short cuts with materials designed to circumvent best practices. 

Is there any real surprise that an industry, such as painting, would design a convenient product option to increase productivity while there is no accountability or building standard over sight? Absolutely not! 

So painters are left with two choices. Accountability in terms of character and quality, or accountability in terms of dollars.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Another question,

Isn't it a good idea to apply a primer with a sheen, prior to a flat finish, in order to identify deficiencies on the surface? Or, do we just depend on the architectural light refraction to augment the flat's ability to hide surface deficiencies?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I want to hear from the pro-priming guys, with drywall. 

Those that believe in priming drywall prior to finish, what are your reasons?

I can think of 3 reasons to prime drywall: adhesion/holdout, sealing substrate for uniform topcoats/eliminate flashing, and for build.

Now, my experience with premium acrylics (aura/natura) has made me realize that they can do all this on the first coat.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I want to hear from the pro-priming guys, with drywall.
> 
> Those that believe in priming drywall prior to finish, what are your reasons?
> 
> ...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I want to hear from the pro-priming guys, with drywall.
> 
> Those that believe in priming drywall prior to finish, what are your reasons?
> 
> ...


I like the pH compatibility and specific properties primers offer for their designed substrates.

And frankly, I think you get a half product with hybrids or any other product that claims to do multiple things. Even the Swiss Army Knife, or Leatherman, are tools that are designed more for convenience in the sum of their parts, rather than the quality and practicality of their individual performances.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> I want to hear from the pro-priming guys, with drywall.
> 
> Those that believe in priming drywall prior to finish, what are your reasons?
> 
> ...


Out West, where the vast majority of walls are orange peel or knock down priming is a must. Ever seen how a drywall joint looks with texture, after its painted, but not primed? It has a whole different look/feel then texture on the rock and will never go away. Even if you try to 'reprime' it. 

Now to throw a wrench in. 
We will sometimes prime the sheetrock _before _texture. Then 2 coats of low sheen after texture. 
Its really all about sealing the rock and joints.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Out West, where the vast majority of walls are orange peel or knock down priming is a must. Ever seen how a drywall joint looks with texture, after its painted, but not primed? It has a whole different look/feel then texture on the rock and will never go away. Even if you try to 'reprime' it.
> 
> Now to throw a wrench in.
> We will sometimes prime the sheetrock _before _texture. Then 2 coats of low sheen after texture.
> Its really all about sealing the rock and joints.


Our sheetrock guy always primes before texturing. It's one of the reasons we use him almost exclusively - including at our own home.

Guess I'm just old school in that I want to use processes and products I know will give me excellent results. Just don't want to take a chance with a customer's home and my reputation for the sake of saving a few hours. Besides, I'm getting paid for that "extra" step and the customer is getting what they have paid for so other than the price maybe being a bit more, there is no downside IMO.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

*Subject pertains to drywall only*

I've always been pro-prime, especially with normal grade paints. I wouldn't consider this with non-high quality coatings. I wonder though, if this distrust is similar to the feelings we had towards using wb on trim. Look how that's changed.

I've done some experiments over the years, however. Like if I'm doing some major patching and retexturing on walls, I would first coat with finish paint on some and then use primer. Often times the bond was just as good or better than the primer. The only benefit the primer offered was an extra coat for build. 

Also, most of my customer base are educated professionals, doctors/surgeon's with younger children, who are aware and concerned about voc AND odor. 

This is one critical reason for reevaluation of interior primers in the first place, and not for seeking out shortcuts to make "free money", because if I went the route of self-priming with natura, there's a good possibility I would apply 3 coats. 

My experience also is there are very few zero voc, hq primers available. The only one I am familiar with and was impressed with was the natura fresh start (511), which is almost the same price as natura, and I question whether it offers anything beyond what the finish will within this specific application.

So, do any of you have any primers to recommend that meet zero voc, and can perform? Any SW offers, since that's my likely supplier at this point?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm either going to go :BM fs primer (511) & 2 coats Natura, or SW promar 200 zero primer & 2 coats harmony.
BM is my first choice.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> How is Harmony as a paint, besides it's low odor componet?


Do urself a solid. Prime it with this. Finish it with this. Two coats. Done.
Primer-finish-finish won't look any better,
And as far as sticking? Thousands and thousands and thousands of gallons I have never once seen finish paint peel off of drywall. Swear to god. Never happened. 

If u can't stand to pull the trigger on a whole house or whatever. Make a investment in a experiment, one room, one wall even. Finish-finish it. You'll be free forever. That harmony was good paint too. Better than promar. Did like a 30 k sq ft? Maybe space with it. Finish-finish. Eggshell or low lustre whatever it was. Solid.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I've always been pro-prime, especially with normal grade paints. I wouldn't consider this with non-high quality coatings. I wonder though, if this distrust is similar to the feelings we had towards using wb on trim. Look how that's changed.
> 
> I've done some experiments over the years, however. Like if I'm doing some major patching and retexturing on walls, I would first coat with finish paint on some and then use primer. Often times the bond was just as good or better than the primer. The only benefit the primer offered was an extra coat for build.
> 
> ...


 
Good points TJ. 


If a homeowner has concerns about VOC's, it really leaves little choice other then to go with a low VOC primer/finish. And in my opinion, that wouldn't be a concern for me if I was applying it on previously painted walls. However, it strikes me as a little odd that the hazards (whether nuisance or otherwise) still present in drywall, and joint compound dust, doesn't concern a sensitive homeowner whose had remodeling done, as much as the VOC's in the paint does. 

And from my understanding, aren't VOC's more of an environmental concern rather then a health concern? A super sensitive homeowner probably gets an above PEL for benzine when they fill up the SUV, then hazardous exposure from waterborne paints.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Good points TJ.
> 
> If a homeowner has concerns about VOC's, it really leaves little choice other then to go with a low VOC primer/finish.
> 
> And from my understanding, aren't VOC's more of an environmental concern rather then a health concern? A super sensitive homeowner probably gets an above PEL for benzine when they fill up the SUV, then hazardous exposure from waterborne paints.


I agree that vocs are mainly about macro-environmental air quality... BUT, it's in the customers minds that it's worse. So there's an emotional attachment that cannot be dismantled from their supposition... and really what that means is that for me to deliver for them, I need to provide low/zero voc products that have ZERO odor. 

I could tell them the same facts that you brought up, but that won't change their outlook and there's no real positive result in our relationship from attempting it.

The drywall stuff, it's pretty low odor and I'm sure any solid company would contain the dust to the customer's satisfaction.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

We used to put the vanilla extract in the paint in occupied space. Supposedly it cut out the smell. I dunno. It appeased people. It did.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> We used to put the vanilla extract in the paint in occupied space. Supposedly it cut out the smell. I dunno. It appeased people. It did.


It's all about the presentation Oden. 

If a painter simply plugged in a contraption similar to this, all will be forgiven. Well worth the $1,300.00 investment.

Disclaimer: I don't have, or use one.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Well nevermind, they don't care because it's the basement  I may get to try out the new valspar line. Cheers.


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## HelpfulPainter (Jan 31, 2015)

cdpainting said:


> We are priming doors and base today. I am a firm believer in priming then painting.


Was the baseboards already primed? Because most baseboards are store bought primed by the manufacture.


Im just curious if you prime your baseboards if they are already primed by the manufacture.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

helpfulpainter said:


> was the baseboards already primed? Because most baseboards are store bought primed by the manufacture.
> 
> Im just curious if you prime your baseboards if they are already primed by the manufacture.


*derail; flagged


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> *derail; flagged


I was trying to make this the first underailed, pure thread on PT...


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

Apparently there was some painting being done back in the 60s, where they thought they had self priming paint. Because whenever i find paint bubbles on a ceiling and take down a sheet of paint with 5/1, or start rolling a room and suddenly the roller is full of paint chips, its always w brown paper sheetrock underneath. The job ofcourse changes into a prep, prime, skim coat job when this happens. Its a rare thing, but kind of amazing that they painted brand new houses without priming.
Also w exterior trim or window sashes, even self priming paint isnt totally adhering to raw wood either over time, but it stays gummy and looks like its adhering...to air.
Priming is always necessary, as we all know.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

What about wallpaper directly on brown paper sheetrock? That wallpaper removal can be a mini disaster sometimes...


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've been testing Aura exterior on a small scale without primer on exterior wood. A few doors here and there, some trim and facia, and other limited applications. It will be interesting to see how it does over the next few years. 

The BM guys really seem to be confident that it will work well. The details of their extended warranty package that we have discussed in other threads show that they are willing to put their money on the line to prove it. 

My BM guy says Aura is not "paint" in the traditional sense of the word but a "direct to substrate coating"  
Yeah, I rolled my eyes a little at that one too. Anyway, I want to see for myself what this stuff can do. Anybody else tried this yet?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Just a thought from the peanut gallery.
A lot of the PT realizes that pricing has stagnated. But production has not. Downsizing is what it is. And downsizing comes in many forms. As many grains of salt as anyone wishes.....


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've been testing Aura exterior on a small scale without primer on exterior wood. A few doors here and there, some trim and facia, and other limited applications. It will be interesting to see how it does over the next few years.
> 
> The BM guys really seem to be confident that it will work well. The details of their extended warranty package that we have discussed in other threads show that they are willing to put their money on the line to prove it.
> 
> ...


The girls at my local BM paint shop sell the idea of Aura being fine on new drywall ( I can't bring myself to roll out entire walls without priming first) and patches for interior stuff. I've never heard them ever mention putting the exterior version on raw wood out side though. I don't think I could do that. Not that primers don't fail as well sometimes, but I just couldn't put the paint itself on raw wood. But I'm a chicken sometimes.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've been testing Aura exterior on a small scale without primer on exterior wood. A few doors here and there, some trim and facia, and other limited applications. It will be interesting to see how it does over the next few years. The BM guys really seem to be confident that it will work well. The details of their extended warranty package that we have discussed in other threads show that they are willing to put their money on the line to prove it. My BM guy says Aura is not "paint" in the traditional sense of the word but a "direct to substrate coating"  Yeah, I rolled my eyes a little at that one too. Anyway, I want to see for myself what this stuff can do. Anybody else tried this yet?





Wildbill7145 said:


> The girls at my local BM paint shop sell the idea of Aura being fine on new drywall ( I can't bring myself to roll out entire walls without priming first) and patches for interior stuff. I've never heard them ever mention putting the exterior version on raw wood out side though. I don't think I could do that. Not that primers don't fail as well sometimes, but I just couldn't put the paint itself on raw wood. But I'm a chicken sometimes.


Just sayin, in any other genre would we dispute the mfg recomendations for their product? 
Would we put SAE 30 oil in a motor the mfg states to use 5w30 cause when we came up our vehicles used SAE 30? And we are sure it must be better cause it used to be. 
Not to stick to oil but I got to admit. I'm still sometimes stuck in a 3000 miles oil change. My truck the mfg recommends 8000 miles maybe? The wife's ride too. Way up there compared to what I learned. Early on. It does not affect the warranty to cut my oil changes by like more than halfe. So why spend the money and time? The motors got better and the oil got better, lasts longer. Mqnufacturers tend to overkill so why overkill their overkill? I'm stuck sometimes is why. Antiquated.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, it's curious to me how if a manufacturer calls a coating a "solid stain" nobody seems to have a problem putting it over raw wood. But make the same claim about a coating called "paint" and it doesn't seem possible. (Including myself in this observation).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This discussion is more about industry best practices than if primer/finishes will adhere like primers designed for specific substrates would. It's very likely that a product like Aura has even better priming properties then acrylic primers had twenty years ago. I wouldn't be too concerned with it adhering over the long haul. 

So does the industry suggest we abandon substrate specific primers in the interest of production? Until then, I will continue using primers where the job dynamics allows for it, and while painting best practices and warranties continue to support it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Who here skips drywall primer and just uses the finish?
I think I might be using C&K now so I will prime first since I don't know how it performs. I haven't checked it's TDS yet either but I'm guessing it would say primer first.

If it was Natura or Aura I don't think it's necessary.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> This discussion is more about industry best practices than if primer/finishes will adhere like primers designed for specific substrates would. It's very likely that a product like Aura has even better priming properties then acrylic primers had twenty years ago. I wouldn't be too concerned with it adhering over the long haul.
> 
> So does the industry suggest we abandon substrate specific primers in the interest of production? Until then, I will continue using primers where the job dynamics allows for it, and while painting best practices and warranties continue to support it.



This begs the question of how do we determine what best practices are? 

Lets pretend we're starting with a clean slate. Wipe away our preconceived notions of what functions primers and paints that we have used in the past perform. We're going to paint a room with new drywall with Natura. All we have to reference is the technical data provided by the manufacturer. 

With this as our guide we would apply two coats of Natura directly to the drywall. No where in the specs is primer even mentioned in relation to drywall. I fact it's the opposite. 

"Natura will act as its own primer providing the optimal foundation for the subsequent finish coat" 

To me this sounds like BM is telling us that this product will perform best when applied directly to the substrate (drywall or plaster). 

I know there is a lot of theorizing about the main coatings manufactures being forced into the 'paint&primer game to keep up with the box stores. That could very well be true in some instances or to some extent. But I find it hard to believe that BM "made up" these specs and are trying to pass them off as best practice to us to keep up with the competition, who apparently "made up" their specs as well. 

Maybe I'm being naive, but I like to think that I can trust BM's specifications to be representative of best practices. In other words I can't believe they would be telling us this in such specific verbiage if they didn't really believe it to be true.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> This begs the question of how do we determine what best practices are?
> 
> Lets pretend we're starting with a clean slate. Wipe away our preconceived notions of what functions primers and paints that we have used in the past perform. We're going to paint a room with new drywall with Natura. All we have to reference is the technical data provided by the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


Yep. Natura's TDS doesn't spec any primer for drywall. So, that means to me that best practice for new drywall with Natura is- Natura.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Why use a $10-$20 primer when you could use a $30-$50 gallon of paint...

Especially the initial coat on drywall. Sucks it in like a sponge, it's not shocking paint producers would rather you use finish coat... $$$


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

MIZZOU said:


> Why use a $10-$20 primer when you could use a $30-$50 gallon of paint...
> 
> Especially the initial coat on drywall. Sucks it in like a sponge, it's not shocking paint producers would rather you use finish coat... $$$


I believe they would say it is a 2 coat system, saving you the labor/material of 1 whole coat.

Any commercial guys ever see a spec for less than 3 coats on new drywall? Not me, yet. Years ago, I have put ALOT of PM 200 eg on new drywall with another company. Juiced the first coat just a little and it would glide on. Solid coverage in 2 coats on most mid tones or lighter.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

NC drywall and door frames is pretty much all I do anymore. Prime with the finish, no brainer. Two coats vs a probably three. And u get ur color/finish on the wall right away. That's big. Little reveals and returns and them spots behind cabinets and shelves and whatnots that get installed, toilets, all that....way easier to deal with when ur color and finish is already on the rock.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

MIZZOU said:


> Why use a $10-$20 primer when you could use a $30-$50 gallon of paint... Especially the initial coat on drywall. Sucks it in like a sponge, it's not shocking paint producers would rather you use finish coat... $$$


So you think BM or SW would recommend using finish paint as primer just to increase sales?



Lol. Yeah, I think they would too.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Oden said:


> NC drywall and door frames is pretty much all I do anymore. Prime with the finish, no brainer. Two coats vs a probably three. And u get ur color/finish on the wall right away. That's big. Little reveals and returns and them spots behind cabinets and shelves and whatnots that get installed, toilets, all that....way easier to deal with when ur color and finish is already on the rock.


That exactly why we did it too. 3rd coat for deep base accents that was it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

2 vs 3 coats...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Mods, feel free to close this thread since I got the last word, unless the ownership would rather keep it open for more ad revenue... 

p.s. they are welcome


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

UPDATE!:

I'm deferring to the customer's choice on paints! Either valspar optimus prime or C&K. No "primer". It will be two coats of finish.

Wow, I feel like I'm cussing in church telling you guys this. Relax, it's going to be ok, I promise


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow. You've changed


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Bender said:


> Wow. You've changed


I'm off the grid, "post-pro", rogue... I've been by the book, I've been to hades and I've touched the lips of the divine. On a riverboat on the Amazon, I have witnessed true madness sitting on her banks.

Trust me when I say it will be ok. I'm actually looking forward to this project, and seeing how this system works. Rest assured, I will be using an 18 in roller, in hopes of finding some redemption with you acetic clerics.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Wait! 18" roller!?
Thats crazy talk


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I've been testing Aura exterior on a small scale without primer on exterior wood. A few doors here and there, some trim and facia, and other limited applications. It will be interesting to see how it does over the next few years.
> 
> The BM guys really seem to be confident that it will work well. The details of their extended warranty package that we have discussed in other threads show that they are willing to put their money on the line to prove it.
> 
> ...



Over ten years ago, some were sayin ya could paint duration ext on raw wood trim etc, some were sayin, no way. Yeah its super sticky paint, but its not a primer/sealer on any porous surface. i tried some duration at my brothers house, on raw wood trim areas back then. I was painting for a favor and wanted to see how it held up. Well, i just scraped each section off this past fall...areas on south side of house did not adhere over the ten plus years. It was still pliable, but def had air under it...everything else adhered great, to old paint. Idk, was thinkin 70dllr can of paint and self priming sales campaign.
I just started painting aura ext this past year, on some families houses, want to see how it compares to duration. W primer where needed ofcourse. The ben moore manager brought up how thick duration is and difficult to work with. I never found it difficult to paint, but definitely notice how it thickens in the pot over a day. Also, theres some houses ive painted that have had significant color fading, w duration. One neighbor was so disappointed w faded color on a garage, that he had me paint his whole house w behr...and went and got the paint himself. I know color fading is an issue with most paint though.
I am guessing aura will be like duration or weather beater, with a great 8 years, then fading of sheen, black dot mold issues, but probably wont peel and flake for 30 years.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

10 yrs lifespan for an ext isn't too shabby.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NEW UPDATE!

Might go with the standard dinosaur 3 coat system using superpaint or cashmere!

Confession: I'd feel more comfortable with this system, plus I can charge more for the 3rd coat!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm off the grid, "post-pro", rogue... I've been by the book, I've been to hades and I've touched the lips of the divine. On a riverboat on the Amazon, I have witnessed true madness sitting on her banks.
> 
> Trust me when I say it will be ok. I'm actually looking forward to this project, and seeing how this system works. Rest assured, I will be using an 18 in roller, in hopes of finding some redemption with you acetic clerics.


Hmmm… sounds like you're back up there - again.:thumbsup:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Just to butt in with some random info from questions and comments in this thread:

I noticed several people saying they won't paint with "paint and primer in one's" because they feel like it'll only be half as good at each job. I can speak ONLY for Benjamin Moore paints in this, but _their formulas did NOT change when they put this on the can._ The reality is that for some specific applications, latex paint ALREADY did the job of a primer just fine, full stop, just due to the inherent properties of the paint. They did quality and durability testing, determined that for the specified applications everything worked fine, and put paint and primer on the label. This is only for older products whose labels changed; newer products could feasibly have been formulated specifically to work as a primer as well. Just something to bear in mind.

I mentioned this in another thread, but there are no plans for Natura to go away at this time (at least that the dealers know of), and Benjamin Moore is spending a lot of money to promote Natura in 2015, so I doubt it's going anywhere any time soon. It's a good paint in its own right, even ignoring the "green" aspect, imo so I wouldn't let that hold you back from trying it out.




TKbrush said:


> Also w exterior trim or window sashes, even self priming paint isnt totally adhering to raw wood either over time, but it stays gummy and looks like its adhering...to air.
> Priming is always necessary, as we all know.


Note that for interior, bare wood all of the "paint and primers" still say to use a real primer. I'd never do a finish coat direct to raw wood. There's definitely still good uses for primers, they're just not necessary for everything like they used to be. And this is coming from a real skeptic of the "paint and primer" mantras.



TKbrush said:


> I am guessing aura will be like duration or weather beater, with a great 8 years, then fading of sheen, black dot mold issues, but probably wont peel and flake for 30 years.


Aura does have a lifetime warrantee that they've been good about covering. I am curious to see if it holds up as well as they say in the future, but my rep, at least, really believes in the Aura exterior.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

TKbrush said:


> Over ten years ago, some were sayin ya could paint duration ext on raw wood trim etc, some were sayin, no way. Yeah its super sticky paint, but its not a primer/sealer on any porous surface. i tried some duration at my brothers house, on raw wood trim areas back then. I was painting for a favor and wanted to see how it held up. Well, i just scraped each section off this past fall...areas on south side of house did not adhere over the ten plus years. It was still pliable, but def had air under it...everything else adhered great, to old paint. Idk, was thinkin 70dllr can of paint and self priming sales campaign.
> I just started painting aura ext this past year, on some families houses, want to see how it compares to duration. W primer where needed ofcourse. The ben moore manager brought up how thick duration is and difficult to work with. I never found it difficult to paint, but definitely notice how it thickens in the pot over a day. Also, theres some houses ive painted that have had significant color fading, w duration. One neighbor was so disappointed w faded color on a garage, that he had me paint his whole house w behr...and went and got the paint himself. I know color fading is an issue with most paint though.
> I am guessing aura will be like duration or weather beater, with a great 8 years, then fading of sheen, black dot mold issues, but probably wont peel and flake for 30 years.


Yep, I bit on the SW claims when Duration (exterior) came out. "Two coats of Duration on raw wood is better than primer and topcoat." 

And like you, it came back and bit me in the a$$. 

Now for interior on new drywall, are some of you saying that two coats of finish product looks and performs as well as if it were primed + 2 finish coats? Whether it be flat or some sheen?


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Just to butt in with some random info from questions and comments in this thread:
> 
> I noticed several people saying they won't paint with "paint and primer in one's" because they feel like it'll only be half as good at each job. I can speak ONLY for Benjamin Moore paints in this, but _their formulas did NOT change when they put this on the can._ The reality is that for some specific applications, latex paint ALREADY did the job of a primer just fine, full stop, just due to the inherent properties of the paint. They did quality and durability testing, determined that for the specified applications everything worked fine, and put paint and primer on the label. This is only for older products whose labels changed; newer products could feasibly have been formulated specifically to work as a primer as well. Just something to bear in mind.
> 
> ...


Woodford!
I love Aura paint for interior and I use it most of the time since it was out i believe in this product but I want use it on new plaster and wall boards with out priming
I do believe priming the way to go. I do a lot of patching after the first coat of paint and I use Aura as patch prime than a full coat and never flash.
As for exterior I alway use a full coat of BM fresh Start fast dry oil primer tinted than a full coat of Arborcoat solid stain, The reason I like Solid Stain is not thick about 1.8 mill. and it fade does not chip Aura almost 3mill. I use Ben Moore Regal Select soft gloss for trims. I did not like Aura for exterior it dry to fast i like Select low luster if I have to use paint. My favorite paint for exterior use to be C2 eggshell I done a lot of house 6 7 years ago and they still look like a brand new, the only reason i don't use it anymore my local store to cary C2. As for trim California Titanium white is my favorite cover like a dream.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> NEW UPDATE! Might go with the standard dinosaur 3 coat system using superpaint or cashmere! Confession: I'd feel more comfortable with this system, plus I can charge more for the 3rd coat!


NC all work is bid for 3 coats.
It gets two
That is the way it works. It is how you make money.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oden said:


> NC all work is bid for 3 coats.
> It gets two
> That is the way it works. It is how you make money.


Even if eggshell or satin?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Here's a wall in a new house I did last year with two coats of Valspar Ultra P&P, sprayed and back rolled @ 4mil wet per coat. It's the stock white in a satin finish. 








After first coat








After finish coat. In this pic you can see the top seam due to not so stellar drywall work. 

Overall I was satisfied with the performance of the material. I was actually surprised at how little the first coat flashed. The second coat didn't flash at all. 

I was a little concerned at first when the walls wouldn't pass a standard tape adhesion test on the joints after two days drying time, but after one week cure time it passed multiple tests just fine. 

Here's a little test I did to see if patches of Crackshot would flash through the finish. It did very well. 















Funny thing is the very next new house I did a month later I used PVA. It flashed so bad I had to reprime it All. The rep said "that can happen with certain kinds of drywall compound" I think I bitched about that on here when it happened.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Oden said:


> NC all work is bid for 3 coats.
> It gets two
> That is the way it works. It is how you make money.


Not if you have a good GC and willing to pay for it.
I have 4 to 5 GC they do high end works I do all their works they don't get any other bids I give the my price and I do the job all they want is good quality and no surprises and I deal directly with HO under the GC supervision. They have the same crew from electrician to Plumber to plaster.....


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

New drywall mud, knock down, tape joints? Yeah a primer is necessary for even porosity. I've had the sherwin guys do all kinds of side by side comparisons between them and the competitors. None of them covered in one coat, not even the stuff sherwin has, so it's not rigged. 

Went over a dark maroon red with white paint. Some did better than others, but absolutely no color bleed through...nope. Such a striped animal with pink polka dots and 6 legs, does not exist Sir.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Funny thing is the very next new house I did a month later I used PVA. It flashed so bad I had to reprime it All. The rep said "that can happen with certain kinds of drywall compound" I think I bitched about that on here when it happened.


It's been my experience that PVA is junk. I wouldn't even use the stuff if it was half off, which wouldn't save me much anyway compared to what it's actually worth. I've even tried to spray it to put it on a little thicker...that was a waste of money.

A little better quality primer = problem solved. I switched everything to hi-build primer for spray applications. For better quality primer I'd use something like wall & wood or just a multi-surface from SW. I'd even use hi-build, rolled, before I try the pva. Yuck.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

woodcoyote said:


> It's been my experience that PVA is junk. I wouldn't even use the stuff if it was half off, which wouldn't save me much anyway compared to what it's actually worth. I've even tried to spray it to put it on a little thicker...that was a waste of money.
> 
> A little better quality primer = problem solved. I switched everything to hi-build primer for spray applications. For better quality primer I'd use something like wall & wood or just a multi-surface from SW. I'd even use hi-build, rolled, before I try the pva. Yuck.


Yeah, that one time was my first and last experiment with PVA. It caught my eye one day at Sherwin on sale for something ridiculous like $45 a bucket. Cost me way more than I saved in added labor, even though they did comp the material for the second prime.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

You MAY get away with no primer when dealing with higher end paints. But when you are using pro-mar 200 from S.W. or "Painters Friend" from PPG, you simply have to use primer. Because of that it's best to simply adopt the policy of using primer across the board until paint quality improves across the board.

I just can't risk it when I drywall the bottom half of a wall and have to blend it in with promar 200. I deal with enough alligatoring paint jobs as it is, why create another one?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I wouldn't ever recommend trying no primer on drywall with a contractor grade paint, whether it be ProMar or Ultra Spec or anything in between. It's one of the places where you _will_ see a difference between a premium and a contractor paint.

And yah, I don't sell any PVA primer at all anymore. There's just so many better products out there now.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Though, I actually really like Zinsser 1-2-3 on drywall, is that weird?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> I wouldn't ever recommend trying no primer on drywall with a contractor grade paint, whether it be ProMar or Ultra Spec or anything in between. It's one of the places where you _will_ see a difference between a premium and a contractor paint.




I don't think anyone recommends using either of those two products direct to drywall, they're not specced for it. I don't know of a "contractor grade" paint that is. However, there are some mid priced paints out there that are, and can do the job just fine.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

But if we adopt it as standard practice for some paints, eventually it will trickle down to all paints. The G.C. is going to use the excuse of we didn't do it last job, so here's some slightly cheaper paint...

We create a very slippery slope going down that road of not primering raw drywall.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

driftweed said:


> We create a very slippery slope going down that road of not primering raw drywall.


I'd agree 100%. I get a little uneasy at the thought of customers, be they GC or otherwise wanting to save money on labour and materials by not priming just because it says so on the can. Technology does change over time, but I'd rather let it go through a few generations of change before I'd consider investing my time or my business in it.

I can't imagine the number and extent of problems that could result from this.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So the more I contemplate the need to prime drywall, the more variables present themselves. For instance, where joints have been sanded, whether level three or four, it is rare you'll ever get all the dust off. This is where a primer acts more as a surface conditioner prior to a finish coat, IMO.

However, where a sprayed texture is applied and no sanding is performed, a primer basically acts as a sealer that helps prevent subsequent finish coats from absorbing into the texture too much. I suppose many of our high quality interior flats can duplicate the primer process with multiple coats.

When I used to do warranty work for a large builder, textured wall repairs were the norm. After I would repair the damaged drywall, whether water, structural or other, I would never apply a primer over the sprayed textured patches I made, knowing that the original flat interior paint was applied at one sprayed coat, and primer would just emphasize an obvious patch repair.

It was too costly for the builder to honor warranties that included squaring off walls or ceilings, so I spent a lot of time blending repairs into the original finishes. This included, simulating textures, blending repairs, and tinting the finish. One of the biggest challenges was matching the flat sheens. But, most of the interiors were either SW or Kelly Moore so it wasn't too big of a range.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

The slippery slope I see is when we start to think that we know better than spec. When we transpose our experiences with one product to a completely different product. I understand the hesitancy to accept proposed changes is standard practice like priming drywall that are deeply ingrained in our painter psyches. What it seems to come down to in the end is, do we trust the manufactures to give us the best information that they have available on optimum application procedures for their products or not?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> do we trust the manufactures to give us the best information that they have available


I think this is part of the problem right here. We live in an age where people's trust in manufacturers/producers of virtually anything is waning. Car manufacturers pumping out tens of thousands of vehicles that eventually get recalled for whatever reason. Software companies releasing new versions of applications ridden with bugs resulting in endless patches being released. Food recalls. Breast implants exploding, etc. etc.

You are right Jmays, if we don't bite the bullet and accept new technology you'll be left in the dust. I think it's just the fear of the bumpy road along the way. People are reluctant to be the guinea pigs. Couple this with the fact that painters are a stubborn lot and there's always going to be resistance to change. How many painters held on to (still do) the belief that switching from oil to latex was going to be a disaster.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I like to believe in what my BM rep tells me, but at the end of the day, it's a little easier for me to do than you guys. It seems to be a majority of the time it's the painter that ends up in hot water when something goes wrong, even if he was following the TDS and standard procedures at the time. In reality, it shouldn't be the painter (or us, the dealers), but the company themselves but we all know how that works out.

All I can do is listen to the people who've used the products, my BM rep, the TDS, and the experiences of you guys and make my best recommendations from there. That's why I joined these forums, at the end of the day. I don't ever want to ask people to be guinea pigs for new products and procedures, but at the same time- someone's gotta!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> The slippery slope I see is when we start to think that we know better than spec. When we transpose our experiences with one product to a completely different product. I understand the hesitancy to accept proposed changes is standard practice like priming drywall that are deeply ingrained in our painter psyches. What it seems to come down to in the end is, do we trust the manufactures to give us the best information that they have available on optimum application procedures for their products or not?


I believe that as long as trusted organizations like SSPC, MPI, PDCA and others, continue to set reliable standards for painting best practices, we don't necessarily have to rely on gut instinct or manufacturer claims.

And as far as I know, the best practice for bare drywall is to prime with an appropriate primer prior to finish. Anything less, is circumventing those standards and best practices in the interest of production, regardless if the results appear to be successful. And frankly, primer/finishes are designed for production not performance IMO.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Woodford said:


> I like to believe in what my BM rep tells me, but at the end of the day, it's a little easier for me to do than you guys. It seems to be a majority of the time it's the painter that ends up in hot water when something goes wrong, even if he was following the TDS and standard procedures at the time. In reality, it shouldn't be the painter (or us, the dealers), but the company themselves but we all know how that works out.
> 
> All I can do is listen to the people who've used the products, my BM rep, the TDS, and the experiences of you guys and make my best recommendations from there. That's why I joined these forums, at the end of the day. I don't ever want to ask people to be guinea pigs for new products and procedures, but at the same time- someone's gotta!


"Nobody wants to be the first penguin off the ice floe."


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

That's what I've got you guys for, right? 

I wouldn't ever recommend to a painter to try something I don't know works, but it's nice to have a big resource here of people who are (sometimes) willing to give new stuff a shot, even if it's just on their own houses


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I believe that as long as trusted organizations like SSPC, MPI, PDCA and others, continue to set reliable standards for painting best practices, we don't necessarily have to rely on gut instinct or manufacturer claims.
> 
> And as far as I know, the best practice for bare drywall is to prime with an appropriate primer prior to finish. Anything less, is circumventing those standards and best practices in the interest of production, regardless if the results appear to be successful. And frankly, primer/finishes are designed for production not performance IMO.


I don't think many would argue that the P&P movement as a whole isn't about production. Or rather a perceived convenience to the customer. That's one main reason I used it in the example posted above, to provide a consistent touch-up able satin finish at an economical price. That and I was curious if it would work. I have few qualms about being a Guinea pig myself as long as its written in spec. 

But I just have to wonder if Aura is different. I want to believe it is. It certainly seems different applying it. It's not too hard for me to imagine that high quality acrylic systems could actually be weakened by some drywall primers. I do agree with you that primers rich in calcium or limestone compounds seem to bond better when surface dust is present. IME any dust at all on the drywall can cause adhesion problems with acrylics applied directly. Drywall primers it doesn't seem to matter near as much. But assuming the drywall is completely dust free to allow for an ideal bond, then what purpose does this "chalky" compound we call primer serve in the coating system? 

Just thinking out loud.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm just here to facilitate shattering your paradigms and blowing your minds. 

Welcome to 2015, pilgrims...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> I don't think many would argue that the P&P movement as a whole isn't about production. Or rather a perceived convenience to the customer. That's one main reason I used it in the example posted above, to provide a consistent touch-up able satin finish at an economical price. That and I was curious if it would work. I have few qualms about being a Guinea pig myself as long as its written in spec.
> 
> But I just have to wonder if Aura is different. I want to believe it is. It certainly seems different applying it. It's not too hard for me to imagine that high quality acrylic systems could actually be weakened by some drywall primers. I do agree with you that primers rich in calcium or limestone compounds seem to bond better when surface dust is present. IME any dust at all on the drywall can cause adhesion problems with acrylics applied directly. Drywall primers it doesn't seem to matter near as much. But assuming the drywall is completely dust free to allow for an ideal bond, then what purpose does this "chalky" compound we call primer serve in the coating system?
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


I believe that even those who choose to follow best practices to a Tee, shy away from PVA sealer or drywall specific primers in favor of other products like Zinsser 123 or BM Fresh Start. I also believe that this discussion applies to smaller and more manageable drywall jobs compared to larger production drywall painting projects where it is likely the cost of better primers, including the extra time to apply them, isn't practical in many instances.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> Here's a wall in a new house I did last year with two coats of Valspar Ultra P&P, sprayed and back rolled @ 4mil wet per coat. It's the stock white in a satin finish.
> 
> View attachment 36689
> 
> ...


These pictures say it all. Great post!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I believe that even those who choose to follow best practices to a Tee, shy away from PVA sealer or drywall specific primers in favor of other products like Zinsser 123 or BM Fresh Start. I also believe that this discussion applies to smaller and more manageable drywall jobs compared to larger production drywall painting projects where it is likely the cost of better primers, including the extra time to apply them, isn't practical in many instances.


Even as a BM retailer I prefer Zinsser to Fresh Start on new drywall. I've had complaints that Fresh Start doesn't sand very nicely, and I just *know* I can count on Zinsser to work as advertised on the tin.

There is a brand new Benjamin Moore primer out called Sure Seal that I'm hoping someone will try out for me. Might give a few cans away and see how people like it. 

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...ts/sure-seal-latex-primer-sealer#advs=0&tab=2


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I've used countless gallons of 123 and like it, but I never considered it to be great for sanding.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I've used countless gallons of 123 and like it, but I never considered it to be great for sanding.


I wouldn't consider most acrylic primers to be very sander friendly. But as a platform to run a sanding pole over in an effort to remove the occasional roller fiber or poly seed, 123 works just fine.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm just here to facilitate shattering your paradigms and blowing your minds.
> 
> Welcome to 2015, pilgrims...


Consider them shattered and blown. :yes:

Happy now?


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## Krittterkare (Jul 12, 2013)

So I do theses heigher end condos and have always had trouble with flashing using super spec down a long wall at the front entry that transitions to the basement with a huge bank of windows and have found that you have to get it right the first time.
Orangepeel I found is far less forgiving then knockdown and one job I put on about four coats on that big wall and never did get it right.

Knowing after lacquer was finished I have been following this thread and today I did a back roll coat of 123 and just backrolled the rest of the walls two coats and just one finish coat of this wall of a different color so I will see tomorrow in the daylight if it flashed. 

I think on these jobs it would be good to do a wall out with primer tinted to what the finish color would be, one coat primer and one coat finish should be acceptable and achieve the right color because it seems a lot of paints need two tinted coats to get the finish color but the lower cost of primer vs. paint I think would be the way to go.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Never understood the approach that comprised of using cheap paint to save money yet needing 4 coats. That gets expensive saving money.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Krittterkare said:


> So I do theses heigher end condos and have always had trouble with flashing using super spec down a long wall at the front entry that transitions to the basement with a huge bank of windows and have found that you have to get it right the first time.
> Orangepeel I found is far less forgiving then knockdown and one job I put on about four coats on that big wall and never did get it right.
> 
> Knowing after lacquer was finished I have been following this thread and today I did a back roll coat of 123 and just backrolled the rest of the walls two coats and just one finish coat of this wall of a different color so I will see tomorrow in the daylight if it flashed.
> ...


Have you tried Ultra Spec yet? From everyone's reckoning I've talked to it's a much better product all around.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

I prefer behr drywall.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

UPDATE 3.0!

I might go with 2 coats emerald, no primer.

I'm excited to document this project with pics and possibly video!


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> UPDATE 3.0!
> 
> I might go with 2 coats emerald, no primer.
> 
> I'm excited to document this project with pics and possibly video!


You can start a new thread titled..."once and for all 2 coat no primer thread".

I will then start another one documenting (via video) why my 2 coat no primer system is better than yours. We can then read about how cabin fever has set in. :jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think this thread has become more complicated then it needs to be. It's actually very simple:

1.) Best practices recognizes application of a primer specific material, followed by two coats of finish specific material, for best results on bare drywall.

2.) Since there are no standards that prevent a range of one to three coats of a primer/finish on bare drywall, it is a perfectly acceptable application, albeit not a best practice.

So knock yourselves out!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Is "best practice" a technical term?

To me, a TDS is where the rubber meets the road in terms of tech. My goodness, it puts the T in TDS for cripes sake... 

Further, whats the point of making or buying expensive super high-quality coatings like Emerald, natura or aura if they can't handle bare drywall?!?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm sure they can handle bare drywall but using primer is a much more cost effective first coat


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Damon T said:


> I'm sure they can handle bare drywall but using primer is a much more cost effective first coat


Not with applying 2 finish coats vs 1 prime + 2 finish.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

In the case of Aura, Natura, Emerald, etc. primer or no primer is irrelevant to the requirements of the system. It almost seems like there is so much dogma about this topic that we have trouble discussing it rationally. Obviously there is nothing cheaper about painting a wall three times rather than two. Nor is there any financial benefit to the retailers to sell a two coat system over a three coat system. 

So far I haven't heard any logical reasons to disregard manufactures specs with regards to modern acrylics. It seems to be a matter of faith. Why should we add unspecified and potentially inferior products to an acrylic system?....the main answer seems to be "just because" 

Part of what CA may be eluding to by "best practice" is the very real problem of surface dust. As mentioned previously in the thread there are certainly instances where obtaining a dust free surface on new wallboard is impractical. Anyone who has ever tried to do this knows that it's no mean feat. Few painters I've been around actually bother with complete removal of all surface dust. In cases where the best practice (as defined in product specs) of complete dust removal is not, or cannot be followed, then it seems quite logical to substitute the "next best practice" of using a drywall specific primer than does not require dust removal for adhesion.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> So far I haven't heard any logical reasons to disregard manufactures specs with regards to modern acrylics. It seems to be a matter of faith. Why should we add unspecified and potentially inferior products to an acrylic system?....the main answer seems to be "just because"


Seems like a lot of painters do 1 coat primer 1 topcoat on new drywall even though that isn't recommended/best practice. So, by their reckoning, the only reason it says they work fine without a primer is "so those dirty no-good paint companies can make more money by selling two topcoats instead of one and a primer."

It sounds a bit mad to me, but that's the only reason I've seen presented in this thread, at least.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Is "best practice" a technical term?
> 
> To me, a TDS is where the rubber meets the road in terms of tech. My goodness, it puts the T in TDS for cripes sake...
> 
> Further, whats the point of making or buying expensive super high-quality coatings like Emerald, natura or aura if they can't handle bare drywall?!?


Best practices can be considered an industry bench mark. For example. ASTM C840 can be considered a "Best Practice" for drywall finishing.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Personally I consider paint manufacturer specs for each specific paint to be the final word, even over ASTM and MPI recommendations. The paint companies made the paint, they're the ones who know the formula, they do extensive testing to see exactly what it can and can't do. MPI does some testing but it's nothing compared to what the paint companies do. ASTM are just blanket recommendations that are in no way tied to any specific manufacturer's products, which as we all know can differ greatly.

I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking blanket standards are right just because they're standards. I think LEED should have proved that's not true. No one knows paint better than the manufacturer.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> Personally I consider paint manufacturer specs for each specific paint to be the final word, even over ASTM and MPI recommendations. The paint companies made the paint, they're the ones who know the formula, they do extensive testing to see exactly what it can and can't do. MPI does some testing but it's nothing compared to what the paint companies do. ASTM are just blanket recommendations that are in no way tied to any specific manufacturer's products, which as we all know can differ greatly.
> 
> I think a lot of people fall into the trap of thinking blanket standards are right just because they're standards. I think LEED should have proved that's not true. No one knows paint better than the manufacturer.


True. Manufacturers may have a better understanding of the chemistry composition of their products, and are entitled to make performance claims on their TDS's. However, because of a conflict of interest, there's no way in hell they can be considered a trusted authoritative body of standards. Even if the paint was made by Dutch chemists in the Vatican.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Drake, that's a good point, but there is still the issue of biases on the part of the manufacturer. Ideally, I'd like to see some independent organization do the assessment. And that's certainly not Consumer's Report or the Paint Quality Institute.

EDIT: CA is certainly a faster typer than I....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I like Benjamin Moore, but I trust SSPC and ASTM.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I hear you there- I really do- but I'm not sure I exactly see the conflict of interest in this scenario. If they're claiming 2 coats over fresh drywall that's selling LESS of their product (1 can of primer per 2 gallons of topcoat less, specifically). It seems like they'd *not* want to claim this if all they cared about was lying on their TDS for profit.

In my opinion most paint companies are smart enough to realize that if they sell their products for applications they aren't going to work for, they lose in the long term. There's warrantee and liability issues, not to mention just the eventuality that you lose all of your customers when your product doesn't work as advertised.

If you want to trust ASTM and similar I can't blame you- it generally protects your arse in liability claims and that kind of thing. TDS recommendations will as well, it's just generally not going to be as quick or easy of a process. I don't think anyone should do anything they're not comfortable with; however, my recommendation will always be to follow the TDS. I don't think the paint companies have anything at all to gain by lying on them and saying they'll do things they won't. If anything, I'd see it going the other way- claiming they'll do less than they will- for several reasons. For one, it protects them from liability better to underclaim, and for another they can recommend a better (read: more expensive) product to do it. In no scenario do I see over-claiming be profitable to them.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> I hear you there- I really do- but I'm not sure I exactly see the conflict of interest in this scenario. If they're claiming 2 coats over fresh drywall that's selling LESS of their product (1 can of primer per 2 gallons of topcoat less, specifically). It seems like they'd *not* want to claim this if all they cared about was lying on their TDS for profit.
> 
> In my opinion most paint companies are smart enough to realize that if they sell their products for applications they aren't going to work for, they lose in the long term. There's warrantee and liability issues, not to mention just the eventuality that you lose all of your customers when your product doesn't work as advertised.
> 
> If you want to trust ASTM and similar I can't blame you- it generally protects your arse in liability claims and that kind of thing. TDS recommendations will as well, it's just generally not going to be as quick or easy of a process. I don't think anyone should do anything they're not comfortable with; however, my recommendation will always be to follow the TDS. I don't think the paint companies have anything at all to gain by lying on them and saying they'll do things they won't. If anything, I'd see it going the other way- claiming they'll do less than they will- for several reasons. For one, it protects them from liability better to underclaim, and for another they can recommend a better (read: more expensive) product to do it. In no scenario do I see over-claiming be profitable to them.


I'm certainly not accusing paint manufacturers of lying. I'm sure they're all sincere in their product claims - and I too trust the product TDS's to be an appropriate application guide, whether they are recommendations or requirements.

I'm also certain that in an industry where standards aren't regulated and enforced by an authoritative body, primer/finishes will continue to provide manufacturers with their market share of production products, regardless of Best Practices.

It's only painting afterall.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

And at the end of the day, what we're talking about here is reducing the processes of the painting service in order to maximize potential in an otherwise competitive market that no longer has the labor time available for craftsmanship quality, or for Best Practices. In most cases.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

That's a bleak outlook of the industry (not that I necessarily disagree). A shame, though.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodford said:


> That's a bleak outlook of the industry (not that I necessarily disagree). A shame, though.


I'm not too concerned about the industry after being a member at PT for several years. There are just too many indications that painting contractors, and suppliers, want to provide top quality in performance and service. It's just getting our clients to understand the costs of a quality paint job, in terms of labor time, when applied with the best possible practices.

I'm also not necessarily advocating for authoritative oversight. But it would allow confidence, in general, if everyone could agree upon a standard. At least as a bench mark.

If primer/finish is to be the new standard, I'd like to see it tested and included as an industry best practice.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Certainly don't disagree with any of that. I don't mind the ASTM and similar groups' listings, and best practices are crucial to reliability and accountability in every industry. I just worry about the current state they're in, which is generally out of date and unreliable.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm sitting here, and witnessing great productive dialog. I'm proud of you guys!


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Let me add something. I'm going to take a different angle.

If I bid 1 prime and 2 top coats for a customer, explain why and they accept...then it doesn't matter.

If I bid 1 prime and 1 final for a customer, explain why, and they accept...then it doesn't matter.

If I bid 2 final coats for a customer, explain why, and they accept...then it doesn't matter.

My point: This thread started with a question about Cashmere. I chimed in. That stuff needs primer on bare drywall. However, TJ's experience says Natura will work without. 

Here is the complication for a contractor. I can't beat TJ from a material stand-point. It would be in my favor to know he was only doing two coats. However, I don't have that benefit.

I guess I just have to sell the home owner on the fact that my lines are straighter than his. Because if I say he's a hack for not priming, that may not be true. If he tells the homeowner the paint has primer in it, or it is so good it doesn't require it...then I look like an idiot and use inferior product.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Only two things I can recommend to contractors:

1) Bid what you're confident in. If you've got a system you know works, bid it. Don't bid something you've never done before like no primer with a paint that's new to you, or only 1 finish coat if you usually do two. Convince the HO/GC that your finish quality is worth the money. Always assume you're being underbid by a hack and sell EVERY job like it's happening. Don't try to beat him on price if it means compromising your quality.

2) Find high quality systems that can work for you for less money. If you're using a three-coat system, maybe consider finding something that works for you in two. Test it out, and when you're confident start bidding it. I won't make any specific recommendations because I'm clearly biased; you know what brand I think you should use.

Do both, present the bids confidently, always assume there's a hack undercutting you. You might not get every job but imho you're going to get the smart clients, not have call-backs, and make referrals.

Nota Bene (as always) I'm not a painter, I'm a businessman. Just my perspective on the issue.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

you bid to cover and look rite. Put on as few coats as u can get away with. Painting 101.
if u can't tell u did it it is exercise
and I get paid by the hour here
estimating and doing the job are two separate entities.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not even sure it's that hard of a sell to persuade a homeowner that primer/finishes are completely adequate to perform a paint job. Particularly repaints, and especially in a budget minded market enabled by the DIY Bix Box centers. How else could one compete. 

I suppose a painting contractor develops the standards he or she is comfortable with, and what pays the bills.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I'm not even sure it's that hard of a sell to persuade a homeowner that primer/finishes are completely adequate to perform a paint job. Particularly repaints, and especially in a budget minded market enabled by the DIY Bix Box centers. How else could one compete.
> 
> I suppose a painting contractor develops the standards he or she is comfortable with, and what pays the bills.


To me, that is the fundamental conflict of interest for paint companies. Once one company offers a primer/finish, the rest feel a need to follow suit. I have to wonder if this is another example of the race to the bottom.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gough said:


> To me, that is the fundamental conflict of interest for paint companies. Once one company offers a primer/finish, the rest feel a need to follow suit. I have to wonder if this is another example of the race to the bottom.


I'm pretty sure the "race to the bottom" was in full swing before the advent of the new high end/high performance coatings like natura, aura and emerald. I never felt I was cheating using these more expensive coatings. I'm merely spitballing here but I suspect the bottom feeders aren't using these products.

I'd say your fear goes back to the paradigm shifting. It's understandable. I've felt the same.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I'm pretty sure the "race to the bottom" was in full swing before the advent of the new high end/high performance coatings like natura, aura and emerald. I never felt I was cheating using these more expensive coatings. I'm merely spitballing here but I suspect the bottom feeders aren't using these products.
> 
> I'd say your fear goes back to the paradigm shifting. It's understandable. I've felt the same.


TJ, I wasn't necessarily talking about those lines, but rather some of the off brands that tout the primer/ finish feature.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gough said:


> TJ, I wasn't necessarily talking about those lines, but rather some of the off brands that tout the primer/ finish feature.


Understood, and agreed.


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## ttalbon (Aug 6, 2009)

i think we as professionals have a responsibility to test the paints and materials we use so that for the majority of our jobs we have an assurance of what they can and cannot do.

So when we get asked about why we apply or don't apply primer on a job we have a confidence in our results to answer truthfully about our experiences.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I went out to a job in progress the other day to spray some newly installed bifold doors. The doors were pre-finished instead of pre-primed as specified. Some sort of super slick alkyd or lacquer coating. Of course the installers threw away all the literature for the doors so I had no painting instructions. 

The trim finish was Regal SG. No way I was putting it on directly on these doors. While explaining the dilemma to the HO and the need for an extra step in the process (priming) the HO is giving me this quizzical look like he's not buying it. Then he says "doesn't that paint have primer in it already?" 


It's a shame that some of the actual advances made in coatings technology in recent years get buried in the landslide of marketing BS that is the paint&primer movement. I think the general publics perception of these products is more of a problem than the products themselves. 

I ended up priming the doors with Coverstain but just for the heck of it I sprayed the back side of one bifold with the Regal. This was after scuff sanding and cleaning with DN alcohol. 








Yeah, that paints "got primer in it already" lol.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Make sure you charge for that sweet faux finish.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

To me, being a pro entails bringing value to a project. One important aspect to this is understanding what products are needed to provide a quality finish for the various surfaces. Smoke and water damage require specific products for proper restoration. Raw trim, be it mdf, poplar, pine, etc, require their respective primers prior to finishing.

I agree that along with all the diy shows on tv that, delude viewers into thinking its a simple matter of dryrolling some bear on a wall, the marketing of "primer and paint in one" has further added to a disconnect when we painters are attempting to describe proper scopes for their projects.

With all this said, there are high quality products that can address raw drywall in a way that provides a high end finish and also includes efficiencies that we the contractor can realize, with increased margins as well.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

We'll stated TJ. However, the question of quality primer/finishes replacing the need for primer specific materials is still subjective in comparison to the objective standards delivered by ASTM and other qualified third party bodies. Including the manufacturers of the products we paint, like USG.

But given the liberties the industry affords to painting, I'm certain that the boots on the ground will eventually obtain enough data on the performance of primer finishes, that it will eventually become an industry standard and likely best practice.

OK, maybe not.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Not sure being objective in this case necessarily means any better or more accurate, though. Sure they are "objectively" a single, defined standard, but point remains that the people who defined the standard may know less about it than the people doing the actual work, or that make the actual paints. At the end of the day, their specs are just as subjective as TDS or work experience, because it's just some guy writing generalizations after trying a few products.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The addendum to my last post would agree with your observation. However, most painting contractors don't have the convenience of performing product testing in controlled environments that can determine product life cycles on various substrates and under various conditions in a matter of weeks or even days. In other words, if it hasn't been qualified, its simply a crap shoot.

And I'm referring to third party testing. Not the manufacturer's testing.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yahp. Same as earlier in the thread- overall I agree with you. Would be nice if the same third party group would do industry-wide testing on various substrates and conditions. Maybe that's unrealistic with how turbulent the industry is as far as new products and reformulations, but it would make things so much easier (for me, at least, might make things considerably harder for my competition down the road  )


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## Jay23 (Oct 23, 2014)

Self priming products are a marketing campaign. The manufactures for the big boxes have once again told us that we don't matter to them. The DYI's of the world are their customer and that's who they are marketing too. The other manufactures see professional painters #'s shrinking every year along with their gallons in the market. They have jumped right on board with Big Box marketing. I've never seen a satin or eggshell primer. When my customers ask me about products that have Primer & finish in one I ask them something. I go to my van and grab any gallon of paint. I open the can an ask my customer..."do you see any brains in there". When they say "no"


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## Jay23 (Oct 23, 2014)

Sorry about that. 
I tell them when you hire my company you buy two things. Paint and me. The can provides the paint, I provide the brain. Stay true to your systems brothers...leave the self priming products to the untrained, if you find your getting push back explain why you use primers and what failures could occurs if you don't. Don't let the big box stores tell you how to do your job that you know better than them.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Jay23 said:


> Self priming products are a marketing campaign. The manufactures for the big boxes have once again told us that we don't matter to them. The DYI's of the world are their customer and that's who they are marketing too. The other manufactures see professional painters #'s shrinking every year along with their gallons in the market. They have jumped right on board with Big Box marketing. I've never seen a satin or eggshell primer. When my customers ask me about products that have Primer & finish in one I ask them something. I go to my van and grab any gallon of paint. I open the can an ask my customer..."do you see any brains in there". When they say "no"





Jay23 said:


> Sorry about that.
> I tell them when you hire my company you buy two things. Paint and me. The can provides the paint, I provide the brain. Stay true to your systems brothers...leave the self priming products to the untrained, if you find your getting push back explain why you use primers and what failures could occurs if you don't. Don't let the big box stores tell you how to do your job that you know better than them.


We find ourselves near a precipice, dancing on the edge of the razor blade. That is required to be on the cutting edge.

Jay, have you used natura or aura? True they cannot recite Goethe, but they do have much intelligence. Keep up the good work, I can tell your heart is true.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Hey on the raw trim I'm gonna prime first before proclassic.

Everybody okay with that approach?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Hey on the raw trim I'm gonna prime first before proclassic.
> 
> Everybody okay with that approach?


The founding fathers of painting best practices would be pleased with your decision. However, your accountant won't be if you're not charging appropriately for the extra procedure and material.

As diligent as we must be, given the burdensome responsibility of trade Watchmen, we must also be aware of the times we live in. There is an ensuing battle on the horizon which will determine if man will succumb to mediocrity.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

So there's this... 
I started out rolling matte emerald on a section of ceiling first. Lets put it this way, it wasn't giving me butterflies. 
I knew there wasn't enough to finish the ceilings out 2 coats like planned. Further, there is quite a bit of light coming into this basement. 

*edit Oh, and I 86'd the emerald matte for eminence. 

I didn't want to begin another crucible over applying satin emerald over bare drywall.
So, I called up 'ol uncle sherwin and got some primer for everything.
Basically, imo, emerald isn't the same caliber as natura/aura.


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