# Re-staining Kitchen Cabs.



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Normally I'm refinishing cabinets with paint. Someone has requested a price on staining old honey oak cabs.. Thinking I have 2 choices here. Well maybe 3..
1) Lightly sand as per usual and use a wiping or gel stain and top clear?
2) Completely remove old finish and use penetrating stain and top clear.

Questions would be: 

- If I go route (1) Would you prime cabs with some sort of clear bonding primer first.? Are there products you would trust to go straight over the old finish with or without top clearing?

- How much time would you alot per door for stripping?! Thinking it would be cheaper for them to get new doors??

- Products for each situation. Give it to me..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

oil gel stains like old masters, general finishes have some urethane in them. They have good adhesive qualities wiping stains do not. general finishes waterborne stains can also be used in this way. Gel stains you can use multiple coats and dry bush to get the desired opacity, doesn't have the same look that new stained wood does though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

That's it? Where is everyone?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm reactivating this thread to get more feed back.. Where have all the wood finishers gone. Would anyone actually attemp to strip the old finish off.? If so, how much time would you budget for each door?
@Coco, I have a hard time getting GF here in NL. Would you trust the Saman Waterbased Gel Stain?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I'm reactivating this thread to get more feed back.. Where have all the wood finishers gone. Would anyone actually attemp to strip the old finish off.? If so, how much time would you budget for each door?
> @Coco, I have a hard time getting GF here in NL. Would you trust the Saman Waterbased Gel Stain?


Saman gel stain is oil based isn't it?


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

love to help but ive only done it once, wasnt all that cost effective. i just used lacquer thinner to wipe off the clear, light sand and clean and used sansin gel stain and clear. from my very limited experience id charge what i would for paint plus 50 %


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Light sand, then toner over the top till you get the color, then a couple coats of clear. All spray.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Saman gel stain is oil based isn't it?


Hmm. Good question. I'm actually not sure as I have never used it. I notice there is also the 2 in 1 stain with finish. I imagine those are finicky garbage?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Light sand, then toner over the top till you get the color, then a couple coats of clear. All spray.


Which toner do you use? Please tell me it's not laquer. I'm done with laquers. I also can't be spraying laquers in a residential setting.. Will have to do the boxes too..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> MikeCalifornia said:
> 
> 
> > Light sand, then toner over the top till you get the color, then a couple coats of clear. All spray.
> ...


Transtint dyes work nicely. Try not to use universal or acrylic pigments as toners as they make the finish too opaque.

Toners can work nicely but need to be sprayed and any runs will ruin the effect.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Transtint dyes work nicely. Try not to use universal or acrylic pigments as toners as they make the finish too opaque.
> 
> Toners can work nicely but need to be sprayed and any runs will ruin the effect.


Just did a tester with 1 coat Old Masters oil based Gel Stain. Colour "walnut".Took the colour really well after 1 coat!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Just did a tester with 1 coat Old Masters oil based Gel Stain. Colour "walnut".Took the colour really well after 1 coat!



Looks great, keep in mind you can still do a toner over gel stain like that. It actually gives it a cool layered effect that makes it difficult for another painter to come in and replicate.


You can also use the gel stains like a glaze, paint it on then dry brush off. I helped a painter restain a condo fireplace mantel, bench, stair railing and a couple odds and ends with a pint of custom old masters gel stain i made. I tried corona oxhair/bristle blend and was too heavy left brush marks and dragged through the stain. I found light weight natural bristle brush worked best ( E&J shipmate) felt like you could really put it on light and feather easily.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Looks great, keep in mind you can still do a toner over gel stain like that. It actually gives it a cool layered effect that makes it difficult for another painter to come in and replicate.
> 
> 
> You can also use the gel stains like a glaze, paint it on then dry brush off. I helped a painter restain a condo fireplace mantel, bench, stair railing and a couple odds and ends with a pint of custom old masters gel stain i made. I tried corona oxhair/bristle blend and was too heavy left brush marks and dragged through the stain. I found light weight natural bristle brush worked best ( E&J shipmate) felt like you could really put it on light and feather easily.


 Thanks, will keep that in mind for further experiments. With this one , I brushed on with cheapy brush and wiped off with clean rag. The oak is so porous, that it took the stain very well. It actually almost looks authentic. Very impressed. Going to do a second coat on half of it tomorrow to see difference..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Update, if anyone cares. Nothing else going on in this forum..I tried a second coat (after 24hrs) of the gel stain on part of the door. it actually looked worse. It kind of looked blotchy like it disolved part of the first coat. Im assuming if a second coat is desired, that it should just be dry brushed on as apposed to wiping off.. But honestly, 1 coat looked fine.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

*Water Pop Oak Before Stain !!!*



finishesbykevyn said:


> Update, if anyone cares. Nothing else going on in this forum..I tried a second coat (after 24hrs) of the gel stain on part of the door. it actually looked worse. It kind of looked blotchy like it disolved part of the first coat. Im assuming if a second coat is desired, that it should just be dry brushed on as apposed to wiping off.. But honestly, 1 coat looked fine.


Not sure how I kept missing this thread. The first question I'd have for you was whether or not they wanted the new stain to be lighter or darker. My suggestions would depend upon your answers. If I were doing the job, I'd want to find out what the existing finish is as well.

I did a re-stain of maple cabs last year for a long-time customer who wanted a darker stain, so I was able to just clean, thoroughly scuff sand, then apply several toner coats until the desired stain was achieved, followed by a few top coats. Also did a few sets where they wanted lighter stain or "natural" look, so they had to be stripped completely. 

In your situation, based on your pics and issues you had with the 2nd coat of gel stain, I'd suggest using toner coats instead of a 2nd gel stain coat if what you're trying to achieve is a darker look. This can be as simple as reducing your topcoat and adding small amounts of the desired stain color. Transtint dyes are awesome for this, but testing and recording results are an absolute must. Having a set finished schedule that you'll follow for each piece is vital.

With oak, I've found it especially helpful to water pop before staining, and it might just give you the look you're trying to achieve without having to apply multiple coats of gel stains and/or toner. Simply taking a clean, wet rag to each stripped door before staining will raise the grain & open up the pores & cells of the wood, allowing your stain to penetrate deeper and absorb more evenly. The only drawbacks are having to sand after your stain, (as well as making sure the wood had dried back out before proceeding). Water popping will only work on pieces that you've stripped though, so it wouldn't help if you're just doing a quick scuff & re-coat. 

As for your choice of topcoat, there's tons of choices that would work, depending upon what you have access to, as well as how you choose to apply it. Target Coatings makes some great products that are very tough, yet simple to apply. The owner, Jeff Weiss, is also the head chemist, and he's actually very prompt in replying to calls, texts & emails. I had a challenging set of maple cabs last year that I needed his advice on, (since I was using his sanding sealer & conversion varnish), and he called me back within an hour, on a Saturday! Milesi, Ilva & Renner all make great coatings for cabs, but I doubt I'd hear back from the owner if I needed help. 

RH was actually the first one to suggest I try Target Coatings, and I've had nothing but success with using their products. They make great waterborne products too, and also offer a cross-linker additive if you need an utterly bulletproof finish.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> RH was actually the first one to suggest I try Target Coatings, and I've had nothing but success with using their products. They make great waterborne products too, and also offer a cross-linker additive if you need an utterly bulletproof finish.


Glad to hear their products have worked out for you Troy. I just spent a few days down at Waldport refinishing the window sills on a beach front vacation rental. Used Target’s Emtech 8000 for doing them. They looked great!

Note - photos show two separate window sills with full and then partial damage (one half of sill sanded). Last photo shows another sill finished. They all looked this bad, or worse (left out the shot of the dog damaged sill).


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Glad to hear their products have worked out for you Troy. I just spent a few days down at Waldport refinishing the window sills on a beach front vacation rental. Used Target’s Emtech 8000 for doing them. They looked great!
> 
> Note - photos show two separate window sills with full and then partial damage (one half of sill sanded). Last photo shows another sill finished. They all looked this bad, or worse (left out the shot of the dog damaged sill).



FYI treating sills with benite or shipnshore first will prevent damage due to water and condensastion like those.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I always strip cabinets because I like working with a blank canvas. I won’t provide the client with the option for toning. 

I rip finish off of all flat surfaces in no time with the Festool RO 150 followed by the RTS-400 REQ and/or the RS 2E. 

For the profiles I’ll use a combination of chemical stripping, hand scraping, sanding blocks, and possibly a mechanical profile sander. I also keep a good chisel set and sharpening stone on hand, as well as card scrapers which come in handy. Can’t forget lots of elbow grease.

I typically allocate a minimum of .5 hrs/sq ft for stripping framed raised panel cabinets based on cabinet elevation dimensions. The .5 hr/sq ft provides for 2-sided stripping of cabinet doors/drawer faces, associated face frames, toe kicks, fixed panels, and accessory moldings, yet it usually takes well under the allocated budget.

I’ll always be certain to check for veneer thicknesses if present before committing to stripping. 

Below are few pics of stripping in process using the above described tools & methods. I hadn’t yet gotten to the profiles and ended up using chlorine bleach to decolor and remove any visible traces of aniline dye left in the pores. I think there were 130 running ft of cabinetry in total. Funny thing was, after getting everything stripped and stain ready, the client decided she wanted them painted!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not sure how I kept missing this thread. The first question I'd have for you was whether or not they wanted the new stain to be lighter or darker. My suggestions would depend upon your answers. If I were doing the job, I'd want to find out what the existing finish is as well.
> 
> I did a re-stain of maple cabs last year for a long-time customer who wanted a darker stain, so I was able to just clean, thoroughly scuff sand, then apply several toner coats until the desired stain was achieved, followed by a few top coats. Also did a few sets where they wanted lighter stain or "natural" look, so they had to be stripped completely.
> 
> ...


Theres the juicy stuff I was waiting for. The client is asking for a darker finish, and not having any festool equipment, I am reluctant to offer a complete stripping. I also honestly had no idea how long it would take..Therefore I was just experimenting with the old masters gel stain. 
It actually did a pretty good job and would take no time at all with this method, as long as i can achieve a desireable look to the client I suppose.
However, whether I can get it as dark as they like with just 1 coat of gel stain is the question. Obviously a 2nd coat doesn't work as I found. I guess Toning would be an option but yes would have to do some experimenting and logging first. That would obviously entail spraying boxes on site. Although everthing would have to be taped regardless if I was staining I suppose. Thanks for the detailed response Troy.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> I always strip cabinets because I like working with a blank canvas. I won’t provide the client with the option for toning.
> 
> I rip finish off of all flat surfaces in no time with the Festool RO 150 followed by the RTS-400 REQ and/or the RS 2E.
> 
> ...


I guess in theory, it's still cheaper than getting new cabinets installed. Your time alottment for stripping sounds about what I was thinking. Around 1.5hrs/opening? And a boatload of sandpaper. Question: are you still washing the surfaces first as to not gum up your sandpaper with greace?
Also, for any detailed crown mouldings, would it just be easier to replace with new ,than to strip.?
I really need to get some of that festool equipment if I get into this much more. I'm assuming it makes much quicker work than my dewalt RO..?
I can't believe she wanted to paint that beautiful oak after all that!lain:


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Theres the juicy stuff I was waiting for. The client is asking for a darker finish, and not having any festool equipment, I am reluctant to offer a complete stripping. I also honestly had no idea how long it would take..Therefore I was just experimenting with the old masters gel stain.
> It actually did a pretty good job and would take no time at all with this method, as long as i can achieve a desireable look to the client I suppose.
> However, whether I can get it as dark as they like with just 1 coat of gel stain is the question. Obviously a 2nd coat doesn't work as I found. I guess Toning would be an option but yes would have to do some experimenting and logging first. That would obviously entail spraying boxes on site. Although everthing would have to be taped regardless if I was staining I suppose. Thanks for the detailed response Troy.


Target Coatings EM 8000 is a waterborne conversion varnish that can be brushed if needed. Might be an option for you when trying to figure out how to do the boxes. There's plenty of other products than can be brushed as well. It isn't uncommon to spray doors & drawers off site then brush & roll boxes on site, (as I'm sure you already know).

In my last post, I said one of the only drawbacks of water-popping is having to sand before staining. I meant having to sand before topcoat, after staining, (not before, as it would partially defeat the purpose of opening everything up via water.)


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I guess in theory, it's still cheaper than getting new cabinets installed. Your time alottment for stripping sounds about what I was thinking. Around 1.5hrs/opening? And a boatload of sandpaper. Question: are you still washing the surfaces first as to not gum up your sandpaper with greace?
> Also, for any detailed crown mouldings, would it just be easier to replace with new ,than to strip.?
> I really need to get some of that festool equipment if I get into this much more. I'm assuming it makes much quicker work than my dewalt RO..?
> I can't believe she wanted to paint that beautiful oak after all that!lain:


This sounds like one of those instances when it might be best to talk the client into just painting them..or even paint with a glaze followed by a clear coat!

I recall a recent thread where one of the mods used dewaxed shellac w/dye as a toner and having the finish craze/crackle. It’s reasons such as this, that I don’t mess with toning or restaining over an existing cabinet finish. 

I think you’d be hard pressed to find a decent set of solid oak “stock” cabinets with plywood boxes for anything less than $200/running ft, that # being on the light side. A semi-custom non-stock cabinet would add a whole different level of expense to the mix. Add in demo, electric, plumbing, installation, countertops, backsplash, and so on....I think a strip/refinish makes better dollar sense, which I’d bet could be done in the $150/lf range, give or take. Changing out doors and drawer fronts through unfamiliar resources, sight unseen, could also be hit and miss. I’ve seen replacement doors purchased from online resources, blow apart, panel glue-ups crack, and so on. As far as changing out mouldings vs stripping....having owned a moulder to reproduce mouldings, I’d have to bang the client for the cost of the knives plus a tooling set up fee, all of which ran ~ $300 for something as simple as a crown...so, no, I think stripping makes better $$ sense.

I think your 1.5 hrs sounds about right, only “if” you were to lose the Dewalt! 

And, no, I didn’t wash the cabinets due to good housekeeping and there was no grease to contend with. Abrasives aside from actual finish are my single biggest material/supply expense. I burn through crazy amounts of Festool abrasives on any given day, yet they do last a lot longer than just about any brand.

The only concern with stripping are the side panels which are usually paper thin veneers. I’ve had to retrofit new side panels, as well as island & peninsula panels in a couple of instances due to the veneers being too thin to chemically and/or mechanically strip.

The client also wanted 26 interior white oak passage doors that I had stripped painted as well!


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Theres the juicy stuff I was waiting for. The client is asking for a darker finish, and not having any festool equipment, I am reluctant to offer a complete stripping. I also honestly had no idea how long it would take..Therefore I was just experimenting with the old masters gel stain.
> It actually did a pretty good job and would take no time at all with this method, as long as i can achieve a desireable look to the client I suppose.
> However, whether I can get it as dark as they like with just 1 coat of gel stain is the question. Obviously a 2nd coat doesn't work as I found. I guess Toning would be an option but yes would have to do some experimenting and logging first. That would obviously entail spraying boxes on site. Although everthing would have to be taped regardless if I was staining I suppose. Thanks for the detailed response Troy.



Hey Kevyn I know this is an old thread but Im havinga similar experience with Old Masters Gel Stain, with the first coat pulling off. My problem is the clear coat seems to be pulling off bits of gel staying here and there and leaving it blotchy. I'm using the Old Masters water based poly, and even 4-5 days later it still pulls it off a bit. Tried the oil-based old Master poly and it also pulled it off a little bit. Wondering if that Saman clear coat you used acted a little bit better with the Old Masters gel. We are brushing the poly so I imagine spraying it would probably not have the same effect. Thanks for any info you might have


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Oh wow. That sux. I sprayed all my doors so didn't have that issue. Although in some spots the Clear coat was separating like water on oil, which ironically what it was. How many coats of stain did you do? Was your work site warm? Possible that stain was still wet?..Did you scuff sand old poly before gel stain. Ugg. I feel your pain..


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Stain not dry…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

And to add to this, I waited 48 hours before top coating. I do recall having that issue when trying to double coat the Gel Stain which I why I chose to just do 1 coat of Gel. Almost like the VOC's are reactivating the product. Pretty sure I did a sample door with OM oil clear with no problems so ,I'm going to have to say this is a drying issue..?


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## juanvaldez (Sep 7, 2019)

Did you lock it in with sanding sealer or not? The poly is probably somewhat reactivating the gel stain enough to not allow the poly to set. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Oh wow. That sux. I sprayed all my doors so didn't have that issue. Although in some spots the Clear coat was separating like water on oil, which ironically what it was. How many coats of stain did you do? Was your work site warm? Possible that stain was still wet?..Did you scuff sand old poly before gel stain. Ugg. I feel your pain..


Yeah we sanded to 150 pre stain and did one coat gel. Thanks to some advice on here we got the technique dialed in and actually turned out very nice. Worksite was warm, roughly 65 or so. Weighted anywhere from 2-5 days to do the clear coat. Overall it still looks nice with the clear coat, there is just patchy areas here and there. We've been able to touch them up and thanks to the amount of sheen in the gel stain a lot of the areas don't even need to put the clear back over it as it blends in real nice.


Since I last posted I did a little more investigation and it looks like maybe it needed four or five days in between the oil in the clear. 
Interesting because the stain is definitely dry to the touch by the next day, so I figured 2 days would be safe since it says wait 24 hours to apply water-based. Must have not totally been kicked though.. doing much at cabinets on this job next so just trying to figure out the technique. Going to probably work up the system to spray the poly for the cabs.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

juanvaldez said:


> Did you lock it in with sanding sealer or not? The poly is probably somewhat reactivating the gel stain enough to not allow the poly to set.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hadn't thought about that one, actually haven't used sanding sealer. Sounds like that might be worth looking into though.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> And to add to this, I waited 48 hours before top coating. I do recall having that issue when trying to double coat the Gel Stain which I why I chose to just do 1 coat of Gel. Almost like the VOC's are reactivating the product. Pretty sure I did a sample door with OM oil clear with no problems so ,I'm going to have to say this is a drying issue..?


Yeah that's what I was wondering because I know you had mentioned a second coat was giving you problems with pulling it off. I even had some problems when I tried the oil based poly gel from Old Masters. At any rate, I think maybe spraying the poly was probably a smart move and I may try that for the doors.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Yeah that's what I was wondering because I know you had mentioned a second coat was giving you problems with pulling it off. I even had some problems when I tried the oil based poly gel from Old Masters. At any rate, I think maybe spraying the poly was probably a smart move and I may try that for the doors.


The recoat times listed on the can are for a very thin film, your leaving on a thicker coat so stands to reason it needs longer before top coating. In the past I've found 48 hours to be sufficient. Gel stains are basically oil ground pigment suspended in an oil urethane medium.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Yeah we sanded to 150 pre stain and did one coat gel. Thanks to some advice on here we got the technique dialed in and actually turned out very nice. Worksite was warm, roughly 65 or so. Weighted anywhere from 2-5 days to do the clear coat. Overall it still looks nice with the clear coat, there is just patchy areas here and there. We've been able to touch them up and thanks to the amount of sheen in the gel stain a lot of the areas don't even need to put the clear back over it as it blends in real nice.
> 
> 
> Since I last posted I did a little more investigation and it looks like maybe it needed four or five days in between the oil in the clear.
> Interesting because the stain is definitely dry to the touch by the next day, so I figured 2 days would be safe since it says wait 24 hours to apply water-based. Must have not totally been kicked though.. doing much at cabinets on this job next so just trying to figure out the technique. Going to probably work up the system to spray the poly for the cabs.


Ya, interesting enough there is quite the sheen on that Gel Stain eh? Almost felt like I wanted to scuff sand before the clear, but was scared to death to touch it! Haha.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, interesting enough there is quite the sheen on that Gel Stain eh? Almost felt like I wanted to scuff sand before the clear, but was scared to death to touch it! Haha.


Yeah my thoughts exactly. It looks so good and finishes so smooth its a shame it needs that top coat at all.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's designed that it can be used without a top coat, although for cabinets etc it's recommended.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Well shoot I think you might be right. According to the tds:

"_If applying stain exteriorly (_I didn't know that was a word but I think I'll start using it) _coating with an exterior clear finish is strongly recommended."_

Might save myself the trouble and skip the clear next time. I will say though that Old Masters water-based poly has that optional hardener additive and it sure does tighten up nicely. If it wasn't dragging the stain around I'd be all in.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Totally Exteriorly.  😂


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