# Semi-Gloss flashing help



## biggerman (Jul 3, 2016)

Hey fellas,
I'm chasing my tail trying to figure out if I'm being too critical or need to do something different. 
I'm painting a poplar frame, MDU carcass (Medium density Ultralight) cabinet. Using a fuji Q4 HVLP. 1 coat of primer (Kilzmax water base), and 2 coats of Sherwin William Pro Classic Semi Gloss. 
Stirred, filtered and thinned with 18% water, 2% floetrol. 

Before you get into changing the specs for a better application, I feel I need to add that the wet finish looks absolutely perfect! From all angles and with a flashlight I see no problems whatsoever. It's wet and the paint is melted together well (wet edge). Once it dries, and only from certain angles, I will see flashing. How can you obtain a better dried finish when the application is perfect??


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

*Sherwin Williams Pro Classic Stinks*

Without pics, I'd guess what you're experiencing is most likely tip shear, which Pro-Classic is well known for. Slightly different sheens at different angles. To be sure, brush a 12"x12" sample on a piece of scrap. Once it's dry, spray some paint into a cut pot, then brush some of that paint over your sample. Look in the reflective light and notice the sheen variance. 

To fix the problem, switch to a different product or install dimmer lighting for your customer. Seriously though, if you can spray PC perfectly at a 20% reduction, you'll have no problems achieving the same look with any number of products---BM's Advance or Cabinet Coat, Sherwin Williams Multi-Surface Acrylic, Kelley Moore's Durapoxy, Coronado's Rustscat, Cali Ultraplate, PPG's Breakthrough...all of which are much better products IMHO.


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## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

I second that, and love BM products myself. But I would also add that it seems like you are killing yourself over this detail. I have no idea of your customer's expectations (or what you charged 'em for it), but Industry Standard (PDCA) inspection is:

"The painting and decorating contractor will produce a “properly painted surface.” A “properly painted surface” is defined as uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. It is also free of foreign material, lumps, skins, runs, sags, holidays, misses, or insufficient coverage. It is also a surface free of drips, spatters, spills or overspray caused by the painting and decorating contractor’s workforce. In order to determine whether a surface has been “properly painted” *it shall be examined without magnification at a distance of thirty-nine (39) inches or one (1) meter, or more, under finished lighting conditions and from a normal viewing position*."

So, no crawling around on the ground with a flashlight and a magnifying glass, fondling the paint, ok?

http://www.pdca.org/page/industrystanddwnld/PDCA-Industry-Standards-Download.htm


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I would say its your primer that is keeping you from achieving uniform finish. With only one coat, especially on poplar, you can't expect enough fill. If you are looking for a better finish, try a true undercoater or try a lacquer one. The base coats are what set up your finish.


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## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I would say its your primer that is keeping you from achieving uniform finish. With only one coat, especially on poplar, you can't expect enough fill. If you are looking for a better finish, try a true undercoater or try a lacquer one. The base coats are what set up your finish.


great point. enamel undercoater sets up nice and thick. . . covers wood grain, and sins :devil3:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

kilzanything, proclassicanything,MDUanything,poplaranything. cheap,cheap,cheap. There is only so much you can do with these, especially when you have them all combined. Your going to get a cheap looking finish no matter what you do.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Pro Classic Arylic Latex . Not a bad product. Flows well, fantastic bonding, but the dried finish feels like 220 sandpaper. I swear it feels like a cheap chalky flat, even in the gloss finish. Wont use it just for that reason.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

loaded brush said:


> Pro Classic Arylic Latex . Not a bad product. Flows well, fantastic bonding, but the dried finish feels like 220 sandpaper. I swear it feels like a cheap chalky flat, even in the gloss finish. Wont use it just for that reason.


Yeah I don't get it. It looks nice and smooth, it's pretty durable, but to the touch it feels like garbage.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

It's the water base primer, use BM 217 on all bare woods, you will never have any problem.
You still can fix it, sand and re-prime with oil base.
Good luck


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## ThreeSistersPainting (Jan 7, 2017)

Sherwin's Easy Sand Primer, 2-coats build up real nice and sands super smooth for any finish. If you have time for the paint to dry maybe check out the Alkyd version of Pro-Classic, I have always had great results.


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## biggerman (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks for the replies. I switched to DuraPoxy but I have to say, it's as thick as molasses and I didn't get any improvements from it's sheen compared to Pro Classic. There seems to be too many variables to consider trying to achieve a consistent sheen with a semi-gloss over a flat surface. I'm considering spraying my cabinet doors and drawers and rolling the carcasses with a weenie roller from now on. Durapoxy introduced more problems than I had with PC. Even thinning it 10% water/ 10% Flotrol it barely made it through the 190 micron filter. Spraying with this same batch I noticed the cabinet had a chalky film when I was finished. I figured it was dried over-spray landing on a semi-wet surface??? 
Anyways, I sanded that down with a fine sponge sander and prepped for another coat. This time I thinned the Durapoxy 20% water and 5% flotrol. (SEE PICTURES). It went on wet and I assumed any imperfections would have been melted together over then drying time but as you can see in the photo's the pink arrows show where I wasn't perfect and it never blended together. This is after 3 hours being dry. There was no chalky finish but I've also got an orange peel effect (LAST PHOTO). I thought orange peel was due to thickness of paint but I thinned this 20%.. so now I'm confused.
I've never had this much trouble spraying although I've only been at it for a few years. Frustrating as all hell when you can't figure out what went wrong!
Maybe I need to take some college classes to figure out the chemistry involved in mixing paint to spray. It seems the larger the flat surface, the more problematic it is to shoot. My only issues with Pro Classic was the consistent sheen. Now I've got the sheen dialed in but the finish is horrible.
Ambient Temp 68
Humidity 40%
Tip size 1.5 mm
I'm still open for suggestions and comments


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Go with airless. An hvlp is not going to do well. 408, 410, or 308, or 310 ff tip., fine filters in gun and machine.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

The pics show what typically happens when trying to shoot acrylic enamels through an HVLP - at least it does to me. Eventually, instead of spending countless hours, days, months, or years trying to figure out how to work around it, I went with an airless and fine finish tip. Recently, the new fine finish low pressure tips entered the picture. Now I am at peace with acrylic enamels, fine finish spraying, and the world - and I reserve my HVLP for spraying clear coat products.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

HVLP is terrible for acrylic enamels. You have to thin them way to much to get them to shoot wet. Your example is typical, too much air to break up the material, leading to orange peel and dry spray, roughness. Like others have said, a little airless with FF tips will give you a great finish. Get 25' of line and a whip and you are set.


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## biggerman (Jul 3, 2016)

Airless isn't really an option right now. I'll try to open up the material valve some and add some retarder. I think the chalkiness from the previous coat was due to not enough material while the orange peel from the final coat was from not enough retarder. If I can dial in a formula with Durpoxy I'll continue to use it. I do see the advantages with an airless but at this point, I'd rather not change horses in the middle of the stream. Another day perhaps.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

biggerman said:


> Airless isn't really an option right now. I'll try to open up the material valve some and add some retarder. I think the chalkiness from the previous coat was due to not enough material while the orange peel from the final coat was from not enough retarder. If I can dial in a formula with Durpoxy I'll continue to use it. I do see the advantages with an airless but at this point, I'd rather not change horses in the middle of the stream. Another day perhaps.


Good luck. Having been where you are, I decided the only way to get away from orange peel when shooting acrylics through my HVLP was to thin the product so much that the integrity of the paint was compromised. I love my HVLP for the control, fine finish, low product consumption, and easy clean-up - just not for acrylic enamels.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Unless you have a 3 or 4 stage HVLP turbine unit, any waterborne will be a pita to spray. In other words, unless you paid $2,500 -$3,500 for your HVLP unit, it won't spray latex without thinning the hell out of it. Also they tend to heat the paint to the point where it is already starting to cure before it hits the substrate which can cause stipple.

People have been over selling turbine HVLP units for 35 years. They typically aren't the best for spraying latex.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PACman said:


> Unless you have a 3 or 4 stage HVLP turbine unit, any waterborne will be a pita to spray. In other words, unless you paid $2,500 -$3,500 for your HVLP unit, it won't spray latex without thinning the hell out of it. Also they tend to heat the paint to the point where it is already starting to cure before it hits the substrate which can cause stipple.
> 
> People have been over selling turbine HVLP units for 35 years. They typically aren't the best for spraying latex.


My HVLP is a four stage and it hasn't made any difference IMO. Maybe a five?

To the OP, instead of experimenting with Dura-Poxy which is a relatively thick product (and one I use in my airless, without thinning, on a regular basis) you might try experimenting with Sherwin Williams' Pro-Industrial Multi Surface Acrylic enamel. It is a somewhat thinner product to start with and one which is primarily designed to be sprayed. But be careful, it has a tendancy to run or sag easily as it is so thinning it any further to allow it to function through an HVLP will likely make that even worse. Because of that if you choose to reduce it further I would advise keeping it's use only for when spraying horizontal surfaces (if possible).


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