# Recommend a sandable primer for hvlp



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Looking for a sandable primer for bare wood (poplar) to shoot with a 5 stage hvlp. Needs to be compatible with say PPG breakthrough or bm advance or recommend me another topcoat that can be color matched that is a better fit for hvlp. 

My local Sherwin Williams carries very little of the kem aqua products. They have some kemaqua plus in stock. Was told the pigmented topcoat is not tintable. 

Tried finding a dealer locally who tints the general finishes eduro poly but haven't had any luck. Doesn't seem it can be color matched either. 


Considering Sherwin Williams wall and wood. Never used it myself. It's PDS has specs for hvlp application. Is it a thick product out of the can?

Saw a YouTube video of a guy shooting kilz max with a Fuji setup on cabinets. I've used kilz max once and I recall it being pretty thick. 

Trying to branch out. Really only have brush and roll repaint experience prior.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

sayn3ver said:


> Looking for a sandable primer for bare wood (poplar) to shoot with a 5 stage hvlp. Needs to be compatible with say PPG breakthrough or bm advance or recommend me another topcoat that can be color matched that is a better fit for hvlp.
> 
> My local Sherwin Williams carries very little of the kem aqua products. They have some kemaqua plus in stock. Was told the pigmented topcoat is not tintable.
> 
> ...


It may help to know that most, if not all, architectural paints can be sprayed out of just about any spray apparatus. Just do it, and you'll become proficient. I would also suggest maintaining your spray equipment. Probably one of the biggest draw backs of spraying, is to stick that gobbled up feeder tube into a tub of paint and find it doesn't pressurize, or draw material.

Get familiar with your gun, pressure pots, pumps and motors, including hoses and fittings. You need to keep everything as clean as possible and ready at all times to perform. Treat your equipment as you would a weapon.

It's simply logistical responsibility.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Lenmar duralaq WB undercoater. Sprays great through hvlp.


----------



## ShermanMoore (Mar 23, 2014)

You can spray just about anything if you thin it right. And don't be fooled by the claims made by manufacturers that the five-stage unit can spray unthinned latex coatings; technically, yes it can push the material, but in order for it to lay down nice you still need a bit of thinning. According to the guys on the technical hotlines for both Graco and Titan at least.


----------



## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

There is one simple rule for hvlp machines. Keep them clean. All the time. I soak mine in lacquer after heavy use, completely disassembled, to get them clean. Change the projector assembly on a regular basis as well. Hvlp units are really simple and the only thing that screws them up is a clog somewhere.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Is bin too brittle for Interior trim?


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I've sprayed SW's oil based exterior primer thinned for my HVLP and had great results. It sands out beautifully and provides a great base for their Multi-Surface Pro-Industrial Acrylic enamel.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I have to get a turbine HVLP set up. Every time the discussion of HVLP comes up, I refer to what I have, which is a HVLP C.A.T gun with a pressure pot that requires compressed air from a motor and pump. 

These HVLP set ups will spray anything given the fluid tip and air cap options. The down side is, you have to lug around a heavy compressor and long air lines.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Dumb question. Can the kem aqua plus surfacer be topcoated with an acrylic like the multi surface pro?

Reading the kem aqua plus data sheet says it can be tinted with the bac colorants. Dunno why the store told me other wise?


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You might want to do what I did; have both an HVLP and an airless so you can pretty much spray anything you want to spray (and have access to) rather than only what will be compatible with an HVLP. There are just too many excellent products that will come out looking great with an airless to limit yourself. And, IMO, the HVLP systems do have their limitations.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Yea one day. I saw the hvlp more beneficial right now for what im trying to wet my feet with. built ins, bathroom shelving, small additions where the customer wants sprayed trim but not enough wall/ceiling to make loading an airless worth it etc.


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I prefer a gravity fed gel coat gun with a 3.0 tip. No need for thinning product or a turbine HVLP. All you need is a decent compressor.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Boco said:


> I prefer a gravity fed gel coat gun with a 3.0 tip. No need for thinning product or a turbine HVLP. All you need is a decent compressor.


I have a Devillbiss Finish Line gravity feed with a 2.2 fluid tip. It sprays high build polyurethanes pretty well provided you supply it with enough CFM of air. I'd love to have a 3.0!


----------



## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Ya, I live right next door to a marina and I bought the same set up they have. It comes with a 2.5 and 3.0. Then for less then twenty bucks add a regulator. My compressor is not that big but has around 7 cfm. One of the best investments I have ever made. Sprays just about everything including 2 part epoxies (Just make sure to make small batches when using epoxy).


----------



## dmo999 (Jun 11, 2016)

PPG has a quick dry oil that can be sprayed via HVLP. I've used it many times and their primers are some of the best. Otherwise Shellac like previous post said.

Top coat : I have one that I love but it can be hard to find. Aqua Borne Ceramic by Graham Paint

http://www.grahampaint.com/product_enamels.htm

This stuff has tiny microspheres of ceramic and when it fully cures it is hard as a rock very smooth and has a beautiful sheen. This stuff is some of the best fine finish paint I have ever used. It self levels as well. It ties in just in case you have a small issue that requires the use of a brush. It's worth it's weight in gold.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Boco said:


> Ya, I live right next door to a marina and I bought the same set up they have. It comes with a 2.5 and 3.0. Then for less then twenty bucks add a regulator. My compressor is not that big but has around 7 cfm. One of the best investments I have ever made. Sprays just about everything including 2 part epoxies (Just make sure to make small batches when using epoxy).


Most of the conventional guns now come with built in cheater valves (air flow control valves). But, if you don't have one built in, get yourself one of the Sharpes. You won't even need a regulator at the compressor, although you should have one already. I usually just crank my air up at the compressor and control the air flow at the gun. I can instantly go from an eight inch fan with ample atomizing air, down to a pencil size pattern with a baby's breath flow of air.


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

First off, I have a four stage HVLP, not a five (wish I did), so it only makes sense that many products I can't spray effectively should come out of a five stage just fine. Also, anything I *can* spray well should be even easier to spray out of a five - or at least they will require less thinning to do so. All of that said, I have had pretty decent luck spraying oil based products, whether they be enamels or primers, out of my four stage whereas acrylic products, not so much. Most of this has to do with oil based products being better (IMO) at retaining their characteristics when more heavily thinned than acrylics are.

Case in point, recently did the exterior of a heavily weather, previously dark stained door that was being painted a bright white. Did all the necessary prep and then sprayed it with the SW Oil Based Exterior Primer I mentioned in an earlier post. Had to thin it a fair amount but even so that stuff did the job. Good coverage, nice hiding and stain blocking, sanded easily, and made for a great looking top coat. I'm convinced that pretty much any oil based primer, such as the PPG product also previously mentioned, would have given the same results IF THINNED ADEQUATELY. 

It has also been my experience that water based primers, when thinned to the necessary level, are compromised too much and lose many of their performance characteristics. As a result, I don't feel comfortable spraying them through my four stage. 

As CA stated, practice as much as time allows with various products and see what gives you good results. Be sure to use a viscosity cup (at least initially) and follow your gun's manufacturer's recommendations for flow rates. Also, keep track of what your final ratio of thinning ends up being for the various products you are trying. This will save you an immense amount of time down the road when you wish to use them again.

HVLPs are a great tool and can be very effective with the right products. But just like anything else, they are not the best solution for all situations. Sometimes an airless with a fine finish tip is still going to be the best way to proceed.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Not being familiar with turbine compressors, although I have one on my AAA that's good for only 35 psi, it's my guess that turbines don't produce enough pressure. And as a result, maybe the fluid tips are limited in size on those set ups. For example, you will probably not find the sizes Boco mentioned.

My concern is over thinning paints that have a recommend reduction of at best, 5%, which isn't much. Paints are designed to perform at a particular viscocity. Automotive paints are packaged at a very low viscocity, eliminating the need to over thin. 

And the problem with thinning material, is that it requires you to build a higher WFT in order to achieve the proper DFT. This will typically never allow you to hang a coating at the proper single coat WFT without it running.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Yep all the scrap cut offs from the trim were saved just for that reason. 

I was simply looking for a recommendation for a product that was a good starting point. I know anything can be thinned, for better or worse, but since I'm not tied to any product might as well start with something right than force a product I already have. 

Waterborne is a preference but not a deal breaker. 
I already own the hvlp. I don't have an airless nor an AAA. 

In the future an airless will be added if the need arises.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Shot some more samples with sherwin Williams wall and wood. Sanded to 220 before and in-between coats. 

Thinning: 16oz of primer + 2oz winter rated washer fluid and +2oz of flood floetrol. 

Sprayed two coats on. First coat I sprayed relatively light. That didn't do much but raise grain. Second coat I tried laying it on thicker. I couldn't get it not to orange peel out of the gun. It either went on too light or peeled. 

Had the #5 projector set in. Thinking I should go down to the #4 and possibly switch to xim instead. It does seem that I need some more open time to get any peel to level out more. 

I also noticed when I tried a heavier coat id have some dimpling of the previous pass when overlapping 50%.


This stuff sands like a dream real quick. Sandable in less then their stated time but of you wait the 2hrs it'll powder and really polish up.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Titan capspray with only the included hose.
Debating on adding additional hose to allow the air to cool down more. 

I realize it won't flow out like a topcoat but without the extender my first batch dry sprayed with just thinning with washer fluid (16oz + 2oz ww fluid).


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I know bin can be sprayed well. It was my understanding bin Is not great as a full trim package primer. It's brittle nature lends itself to chipping or so I've been told. Never used the stuff except to spot prime an occational knot or stain. 

Maybe I have been misinformed?

Never seen one of the graco proshots used in person. Just videos and reviews online. The pulsating spray pattern is what turned me off from considering one. Can you achieve a high end finish with one? I've seen the videos on the Titan flexspray handheld too. I figured both of those would be a step down from a 5 stage turbine hvlp in terms of atomization quality.

Like I prefaced. I've mainly brush and rolled repaints. I'm trying to get into some one off niche market stuff like TV install pieces (cable box/blueray/floating type custom shelving), built ins, closet organization etc and possibly small new construction additions where someone wants a spray finish on their trim where I might only be spraying a 10x12 room or two worth of trim or a new entry door. Jobs that use about the same amount of material or so needed to prime an airless. 

Im really looking for previous experience shooting products like wall and wood or kilz max, or other sandable primers with hvlp. There are tons of threads debating aireless vs AAA vs hvlp for interior trim. We know hvlp is not the right tool for day in day out production.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

I'll try bin and kem aqua + surfacer this weekend maybe and see how they shoot. It's not that I'm opposed to shooting a more specialty coating like a pigmented WB lacquer. You or your customer just loose the ability to do any decent touch up later on ...at least with an acrylic it can be rolled or brushed and look almost sprayed. A spray only coating you loose that. 



So what product do you use for say a pigmented exterior door? Almost forced to shoot a quality 100% acrylic at least on PVC trimmed entries with a fiberglass door.

I take it you'll shoot the pro shot for that?


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

For what I'm doing it seems like the proshot may have been better if you say it indeed sprays a fine finish. Just haven't read or heard of many that were impressed with it. It always seems you get the "its great...for what it is". 

I own the hvlp turbine now and some people are successful shooting with them. 

I am now considering trying an enamel undercoat as well despite my original intentions of waterborne coatings only.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Shot a few more test pieces. 

First shot some kem aqua + surfacer out with a #4 fluid set. Feel like I could drop down to a #3. Stuff is thin out of the tin which is good. Sprayed two coats and sanded in-between each with some used 220. 

Sprayed 1 coat of breakthrough 50g/l over the kem aqua for giggles with the same #4 fluid set. I only had a few pieces so I added 1oz BM extender to 8oz paint. Honestly I probably should have shot the breakthrough straight first. Probably could try a #3 fluid set on the breakthrough as well. 

Only issue is the grain can still be seen unlike the test pieces I shot with the wall and wood . I laid the 2nd coat of surfacer down pretty heavy. I'll either need to 3 coat with the surfacer or try to hit the spec of 4mil wet which I think will definetly be running on verticals. 


Only concern is that the gallon of breakthrough looked all foamy when I opened it and still somewhat after mixing. First time using it as well.


----------



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Shot some kem aqua plus surfacer on half a trim pack today with the capspray. Definitely raised the poplar grain like a mother f:icon_evil::icon_evil::icon_evil:.

Definetly would like to try some retarder in it but the butyl cellsolve is expensive and only comes in gallons or larger at almost twice the price of the surfacer itself. 

The #3 tip worked great.


----------

