# BM Fresh Start Primer, stain blocker?



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Is Benjamin Moore Fresh Start a stain blocker? It says it is on the label, like water stains, grease stains, common stains, ya? :no: so I learned something to day.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

yeah..i wouldnt try latex for stainblocking. im assuming your talking about the latex, im under the impression oils are hard to come by in CA. Apparently ben moore (according to their rep) is in the process of developing a latex exterior primer that will stop tannin bleeds..believe that one when i see it


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

StripandCaulk said:


> yeah..i wouldnt try latex for stainblocking. im assuming your talking about the latex, im under the impression oils are hard to come by in CA. Apparently ben moore (according to their rep) is in the process of developing a latex exterior primer that will stop tannin bleeds..believe that one when i see it


I will have a review on this posted on my blog tonight. There is at least in my demographic area a wb stain blocker that works. Since I got the joy of reapplying a different primer there will be a comparison. 

And yes, oils are hard to come by here in cali, soon none at all.


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## Lee Decorating Corp. (Oct 6, 2011)

Not really good on stains. It is in reality more of a primer. Use a specialty stain killer/stain blocker depending on what needs to be covered.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I will have a review on this posted on my blog tonight. There is at least in my demographic area a wb stain blocker that works. Since I got the joy of reapplying a different primer there will be a comparison.
> 
> And yes, oils are hard to come by here in cali, soon none at all.


joke stands..you guys  it up for the rest of the country. EPA starts with cali and moves east. i really dont know what im going to do if im still on the east coast doing cedar/redwood exteriors and slow dry oil isnt available. whats the wb stain blocker you use that works? ive been looking for one


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is Benjamin Moore Fresh Start a stain blocker?


No, But sticks like hell :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I love the way it smells.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

If you let it dry 24 hrs it does a decent job at stain blocking. It is defenitly not an oil primer that is for sure.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No, But sticks like hell :thumbsup:


Yep. In our experience it is a excellent overall primer, it works very nice compared to similar type primers, and it is a good bonding type primer, but I would not trust it on stains. You may get lucky on a small scale with a couple of coats, but it isn't worth the risk. Sorry you found out the hard way Gabe. You should know by now not to make a move without running it by the Paint Talk gang first!! lol 

I don't know how you guys do it out in California...(I guess we'll find out here soon enough) It's a good thing the sun shines all the time.....:thumbsup:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Which proudct? Fresh Start, or Fresh Start Superior?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I havent found really much of anything yet that this cant do. Its waaay better than regular fresh start.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Now what the hell is this stuff?

When did it come out?

What is different?

Don't just say it's better either


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Haven't really experimented much with the Fresh Start Superior. My comments were regarding the regular Fresh Start. Seems like there is a new primer hitting the shelves everyday. What makes the "Superior" superior-other than BM telling us so.....?

Scott, are you finding that it is effective on substantial water stains and other "nasty" stuff.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

CliffK said:


> Haven't really experimented much with the Fresh Start Superior. My comments were regarding the regular Fresh Start. Seems like there is a new primer hitting the shelves everyday. What makes the "Superior" superior-other than BM telling us so.....?
> 
> Scott, are you finding that it is effective on substantial water stains and other "nasty" stuff.


Havent put it on the substantial water stains yet (just havent been unfortunate enough to get those calls lately), but for other general cover challenges...tannin, wild grain, deep base eradication, etc, yes it is on the short list of primers that really have body, but also adhesion, sand to powder characteristics (I mean sand the hell out of and not punch through). We are currently using it on this trim package:


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

The resin package in the 046 Superior is supposed to mimic an alkyd. Of all the water based stain blockers I have found this one to have very good blocking properties. This resin was worked on and tweaked for 2 years before it was released to the market. It was supposed to mimic the 094 Fast Dry Alkyd Exterior for those markets where OTC/VOC regs prevented oil based primers from being sold in quarts only. BM has done a poor job explaining not only to its retailers but also their reps why this proprietary resin is unique and why it is better than the old Fresh Start 023.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NACE said:


> The resin package in the 046 Superior is supposed to mimic an alkyd. Of all the water based stain blockers I have found this one to have very good blocking properties. This resin was worked on and tweaked for 2 years before it was released to the market. It was supposed to mimic the 094 Fast Dry Alkyd Exterior for those markets where OTC/VOC regs prevented oil based primers from being sold in quarts only. BM has done a poor job explaining not only to its retailers but also their reps why this proprietary resin is unique and why it is better than the old Fresh Start 023.


I have some pictures and video footage of the powdering characteristics of this primer that are remarkable. I even turned off the dust extraction to get a better look because I couldnt believe it. There are one or two others out there that have similar working characteristics, but to see (what so far appears to be) the full package in one can is...well, about time. Literally.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Here in Long Beach, we have allot of old redwood type siding houses. Tanning comes right through this primer, second coat gets better and by the 5th coat is pretty much blocks it. So in other words its not that great, To be honest I'm not sure what the real difference is between the regular fresh start and the new one. They both stick pretty well.

Gabe - The longest oil drying primer around is from Behr. Its the same VOc's as BM oil fresh start but comes in gallons and 5vers. Gallon is 24.00 and a fiver is 107.00. 

The BM fresh start is 6-8 to touch and Behr is 4-6 I believe. Though in the field its much faster but the cure time is much longer for the Behr. 

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Here in Long Beach, we have allot of old redwood type siding houses. Tanning comes right through this primer, second coat gets better and by the 5th coat is pretty much blocks it. So in other words its not that great, To be honest I'm not sure what the real difference is between the regular fresh start and the new one. They both stick pretty well.
> 
> Gabe - The longest oil drying primer around is from Behr. Its the same VOc's as BM oil fresh start but comes in gallons and 5vers. Gallon is 24.00 and a fiver is 107.00.
> 
> ...


I can count on less than one hand the number of primers that'll do unweathered redwood tannin straight out of the can with much success.

There are other, better ways around that one.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Which proudct? Fresh Start, or Fresh Start Superior?


Regular Fresh Start, Here is the story and pics


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I havent found really much of anything yet that this cant do. Its waaay better than regular fresh start.


I'm wondering if this is VOC compliant in Cali


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I'm wondering if this is VOC compliant in Cali


VOC less than 100g/l so it should be


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

NACE said:


> BM has done a poor job explaining not only to its retailers but also their reps why this proprietary resin is unique and why it is better than the old Fresh Start 023.


They could tell us but then they'd have to kill us afterwards  Most likely, most of us dont have degrees in chemistry so it would just be Voodoo to me :blink:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> VOC less than 100g/l so it should be


Less than 50g/l in cali


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Hey guys, 

I sent BM a link to this thread and got a response from Dana Autrenrieth which explains BM's intent with the Fresh Start Superior, which is referred to as product number 046, while the previous incarnation of FS was product # 023:

_"We believe that 046 is twice as good as 023. The reason is that is literally has significantly more resin and TiO2 than 023. It is indeed our resin in both that we spent over a year developing in the hopes of building a great all around primer that also offers excellent adhesion and stain suppression equal to that of an oil and better than any other latex primer on the market. We succeeded on the former and came close on the latter goal. Your observations around redwood and other tough tannin staining are correct but we found that for average levels of tannin, 046 does the trick. When it comes to adhesion over most substrates, we found 046 to be best in class but you need to be mindful that it can take a week for it to achieve full adhesion levels. The reason it sands well is because we told the guys in the lab it had to as we have heard for years that 023 gets gummy.

We get that its price point, it's not going to be an everyday primer, but we hope that it becomes the go to primer when stains, hide and adhesion are important."_

I believe that in a powder up test most painters would guess it was oil.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Great, thanks Scott. I have to see if this is available in Cali. 

I was disappointed in the sanding of fresh start. 
This was after about a 18 hour cure time









This was PrimeZall after a hour cure time


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Looking at the specs Fresh Coat Superior very well may be available in California, I will be looking for it :thumbsup:


> *Eco–Friendly Primer*  Benjamin Moore has been at the forefront of developing the innovative technologies used to create environmentally friendly paints, primers, and other coatings without sacrificing maximum performance.
> It continues this tradition with the low–odor, low–VOC (44 g/l) Fresh Start Superior Primer. In addition to low emissions, this latex primer is an MPI®–approved product, qualifies for LEED® credit, and meets strict VOC regulations


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Gabe it is. Been around a year or so. My buddy did a side by side adhesion test between the 046 and 023 and he said by far the 023 was better. I'm not sure he just got lucky and the side he tried the 023 was just better or not. He's been sticking to the 023 ever since. I have tried the 046 on some double hung windows that had some water stains and they came right through. I not sure what stains this hides but it seems everything I try they come right through. I gave up on the idea of this being a stain blocker. As long as we have oil I will keep using that for the stains. I know it works.

I have yet to try the 046 to see how well it sands. I do know the advance primer sands great if you can wait a day or two. To me it sprays and sands just like oil. Great primer. Aqualock is by far one of the best adhesion wb primers out there that I know of. Sticks to the old school oil high gloss. When I say old school stuff I'm talking about the oil from years ago that even the new oil's don't stick too.

Pat


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