# one man operation



## brushup (Aug 27, 2016)

If a one man paint company paints a house, and a 4 man company paints the same house, should the one man get far less for the same amount of work?


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

brushup said:


> If a one man paint company paints a house, and a 4 man company paints the same house, should the one man get far less for the same amount of work?


All things being equal (overhead, rates, hrs. in the estimate, paints, quality )......then prices should be fairly similar. The only difference is the OMS will take longer to complete the project, unless they are some kind of super painter.


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## MaddMaxx82 (Dec 3, 2014)

It all comes down to time on the job, in my opinion. If the job is under strict time restraints, and the 4 man crew can get it done faster, maybe it is worth more money to the customer.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Assuming the four man crew is working for a legally run business (workman's comp., liability insurance, employees are given W2's etc.), and the OMS can claim exemption from workman's comp. insurance (and have less overhead costs in general), I would think the company with the four men should charge somewhat more. I think this is an apples to oranges comparison, to an extent. For example, overhead costs probably aren't close, and the work accomplished by four decent painters is geometric, while the work done by a OMS is arithmetic, to my way of thinking.


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## brushup (Aug 27, 2016)

Thanks for the feed back . All good fair points . I guess i feel in the dark 95 % of the time in regards to my competitions prices or even who they are. I am constantly wondering if my prices should be higher. Guess i should just be glad i stay fairly busy


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

A well organized 4 man crew can get more work done in one day than one man can do in 4 days. In the end the job is worth what the customer is willing to pay.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

brushup said:


> If a one man paint company paints a house, and a 4 man company paints the same house, should the one man get far less for the same amount of work?


If the finished product is the same, then the price should be similar. In this business, getting the finished product delivered in a shorter amount of time is a factor, so there may some variance there.




Gwarel said:


> A well organized 4 man crew can get more work done in one day than one man can do in 4 days. In the end the job is worth what the customer is willing to pay.


That's an arguable point, IMHO. With a 4 man crew, I'm assuming someone is foreman and giving direction to the other 3. A crew of one is direction and labor in one.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

one man price should be way higher, he has much more over head to cover. 

the 4 man company can spread his overhead over 4 painters thus reducing the burden per hr.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> If the finished product is the same, then the price should be similar. In this business, getting the finished product delivered in a shorter amount of time is a factor, so there may some variance there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One man in charge, four men working......


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

And one blue man winking........I guess?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Dave Mac said:


> one man price should be way higher, he has much more over head to cover.
> 
> the 4 man company can spread his overhead over 4 painters thus reducing the burden per hr.


There has to be a breaking point somewhere. With large projects requiring lots of man-hours, that would be true. With single home residential work, I'm not sure the theory of spreading overhead applies so much. A OMS can operate out of his garage, no rent for shop space. No administrative/bookkeeping personnel to consider. 

At the end of the day, a similar product should fetch a similar price.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gwarel said:


> One man in charge, four men working......





Gwarel said:


> And one blue man winking........I guess?


We're talking theory here....about painters and paint crews. Need I say more? Lol.:thumbsup:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Equal pay for equal work*



brushup said:


> If a one man paint company paints a house, and a 4 man company paints the same house, should the one man get far less for the same amount of work?


If the ONLY parameters are that they are both doing the same quality of work with the same materials and costs for materials, what difference should it make to the homeowner? I would imagine that the homeowner wopuld go with the lower price, whoever it is giving the lower price.

You need to give more parameters for this question to mean anything, at least in my opinion. Otherwise, what is the point of your question?

In fact, brushup, what IS the point of your question?

futtyos


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

futtyos said:


> If the ONLY parameters are that they are both doing the same quality of work with the same materials and costs for materials, what difference should it make to the homeowner? I would imagine that the homeowner wopuld go with the lower price, whoever it is giving the lower price.
> 
> You need to give more parameters for this question to mean anything, at least in my opinion. Otherwise, what is the point of your question?
> 
> ...


I think brushup is asking if we think he can raise his rates. I vote yes.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> We're talking theory here....about painters and paint crews. Need I say more? Lol.:thumbsup:


Yeah, not dealing with lab rats here so it's not a science for cryn' out loud. Okay, maybe somewhat like lab rats... I mean we do learn a repetitive process and repeat it over and over again for a reward... hey, we *are* lab rats. :blink:


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

There are a lot of variables when it comes to crew size and efficiency. A well run crew of 3-4 can produce substantially more than a OMS on most projects if you could produce an apples to apples comparison. On the other hand, I've seen 3-4 man crews where 1-2 people are consistency standing around or most of the crew other than the guy spraying is working at the pace of an elderly turtle.

Don't worry about what other companies are charging or the size of your competitors. There is so much more to running a profitable painting business than those two factors. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Multiple personnel allows for more quantity and detail in terms of prep, application, and area covered in a shorter amount of time, than a OMS could ever produce at a sustainable rate. Therefore, and in my opinion, it is always more costly for the homeowner to have one person working on their home rather than having multiple workers when comparing the same scope of work.

And there inlies the problem with self employed painters who concern themselves with their hourly wage. The longer it takes them to do a job, the less their wages should be, because the consumer market, in terms of a painting service, can't support the hourly wage of a lingering OMS. No matter how many corners he or she is cutting in order to compete with a minimum of a two man crew tasked with the same scope of work.


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## brushup (Aug 27, 2016)

Thanks

I am impressed with the conversation and variety of points for and against.
My question is could i charge more? 

The job that has recently made me think about this is:
a condo 1336 sg ft 
2 bedroom
liv / din combo
den
kitchen
walkin closet 
and 3 more closets 
foyer 
no ceilings
walls and trim to be painted
i am charging 2800.00 including paint - to take 6 days.

all i know about the other price is that its a husband and wife two person crew
and the home owner was shocked at how low my price was 
and that their price was much much higher.

Thanks again for the feed back .
It gives me perspective and lets me know that prices for paint jobs are 
subjective . I never want to over charge so if i undercharge a little i guess i am okay .


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## brushup (Aug 27, 2016)

and master bath and hall bath


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

brushup said:


> Thanks
> 
> I am impressed with the conversation and variety of points for and against.
> My question is could i charge more?
> ...


Bottom line, even though an OMS is going to require twice the time to do the same amount of work as a multiple crew, a homeowner in general, will not accept the same premium cost. Particular, when the value of a quicker turnover and equal quality is typically non existent with the OMS in comparison with a multiple manned crew.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Over the years I've seen many a "one-man" crew paint circles around larger crews.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

H


Gymschu said:


> Over the years I've seen many a "one-man" crew paint circles around larger crews.


I believe that to be an industry anonmolly. Generally, it is not sustainable for a OMS to paint circles around an experienced and competent crew. But there will always be the superheroes of the trade. Just not enough to make it a general comparison.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Estimating time to complete*



brushup said:


> Thanks
> 
> I am impressed with the conversation and variety of points for and against.
> My question is could i charge more?
> ...


As far as parameters, this is a start. What about:

1. Current color and sheen of walls and color and sheen and brand of new paint? (1 coat or 2 and on which walls?)

2. Same for trim?

3. How much repairs are needed (nail holes and such)?

4. Caulking to be done?

The way I usually approach bids is to figure out how many hours it will take, multiply by what I want to make per hour and then add materials. If I start losing too many jobs, I rethink my hourly rate. If I get most of my bids, I also might rethink my hourly rates.

Then there is the factor of actually selling yourself to the customer. If I know that a customer is going to get several bids, I work with them to come up with a checklist that they can have everyone bid on (right off the bat, this can give me an advantage as the suctomer sees I am trying to help them to get exactly what they want and have it all thought through). By doing this, I can find out in detail just what the customer wants. It also helps with them getting bids as all the contractors will be on the same page. I do not like giving a price for apples and having the customer tell me that they got a lower price for oranges when I gave them a price for apples. I consider this a big waste of time.

I recently started to do a bid on a whole house interior with cigarette smoke. The customer said that he had a proposal already. After going through my numbers for a bit, I emailed him and asked if I could see the other bid with the prices redacted. He sent me the complete bid with prices and in a very short time I was able to tell him to accept the bid that he sent me as I could not compete with it, which saved me a lot of time. Later, I was able to do about 3500.00 worth (T&M) of odd jobs for him to help pull everything else together, so this worked out for me.

I would guess that every market has differences and similarities as far as pricing and you just need to become familiar with them. I mostly work by myself, but call on another selfie to help me with bigger projects from time to time. And try my best to avoid arguments! :laughing:

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> As far as parameters, this is a start. What about:
> 
> 1. Current color and sheen of walls and color and sheen and brand of new paint? (1 coat or 2 and on which walls?)
> 
> ...


At least you know your limitations. 

Far too often painters overestimate themselves. And the older a painter gets, the more he or she is over estimating their abilities. Particular, since this business thrives on speed and a strong back. Which we all know, degenerates rapidly after forty.

Unfortunately, far too many painting start ups these days, are duped into thinking that the dynamics of the trade can be augmented to any serious degree by virtue of the digital age and social interaction of the Internet. What ends up happening is, an over emphasis on sales, presentation, and Internet gadgetry, rather than the actual dedication to the humping, that at the end of the day, is what generates the final product, reputation, and referrals necessary for sustainability. 

Afterall, we're painters, not stock brokers.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

CApainter said:


> At least you know your limitations.
> 
> Far too often painters overestimate themselves. And the older a painter gets, the more he or she is over estimating their abilities. Particular, since this business thrives on speed and a strong back. Which we all know, degenerates rapidly after forty.


And this, my friends is why we have the Old People Pain Updates thread.

On top of a strong back, we must have good knees, eyes, hands, shoulders. A sense of humour is pretty much a must. Patience is a virtue. Tolerance, also a must.

Etc., etc. etc.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

futtyos said:


> As far as parameters, this is a start. What about:
> 
> 1. Current color and sheen of walls and color and sheen and brand of new paint? (1 coat or 2 and on which walls?)
> 
> ...


I like this approach. And, inadvertently, you have coined a new term which I will steal and use to describe a pain in the butt customer: the suctomer!


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

SemiproJohn said:


> I like this approach. And, inadvertently, you have coined a new term which I will steal and use to describe a pain in the butt customer: the suctomer!


Inadvertant is right! That was a typo. Last several years I find myself typing like I am dyslexic. Normally I try to correct myself, but this time one slipped through.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Kneepads*



Wildbill7145 said:


> And this, my friends is why we have the Old People Pain Updates thread.
> 
> On top of a strong back, we must have good knees, eyes, hands, shoulders. A sense of humour is pretty much a must. Patience is a virtue. Tolerance, also a must.
> 
> Etc., etc. etc.


Since you bring up this subject I will share the best kneepads I have ever used:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/McGuire-Nicholas-Ortho-Wrap-Knee-Pads-1BL-22410/205610963

futtyos


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

"Far too often painters overestimate themselves. And the older a painter gets, the more he or she is over estimating their abilities. Particular, since this business thrives on speed and a strong back. Which we all know, degenerates rapidly after forty."

^^^^^THAT is a top 5 all-time PaintTalk quote.

The problem for me is that I can still push it, just not for an extended period of time, hence I take on the "relaxed" jobs more often these days.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gymschu said:


> The problem for me is that I can still push it, just not for an extended period of time, hence I take on the "relaxed" jobs more often these days.


I pushed it a lot this summer. Likely far too much, for far too long without breaks in between. It didn't help that it was one of the hottest, driest summers in memory. The recuperation times are definitely getting longer. I'm really, really looking forward to the end of exterior season.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I pushed it a lot this summer. Likely far too much, for far too long without breaks in between. It didn't help that it was one of the hottest, driest summers in memory. The recuperation times are definitely getting longer. I'm really, really looking forward to the end of exterior season.


Like ,like,like ,like.thumbs up. Thumbs up. Thumbs up. I'M SO DONE WITH THIS!


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Brushup keep in mind you can charge as much as you want and get work for. DO not be afraid to charge more,especially if you have a good amount of work. Charging more is good, this is very hard work and you should be compensated well for it,


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Dave Mac said:


> Brushup keep in mind you can charge as much as you want and get work for. DO not be afraid to charge more,especially if you have a good amount of work. Charging more is good, this is very hard work and you should be compensated well for it,


This.

It's not uncommon for painters to get squirrely and anxious when they're putting in a bid on a job and the price they're submitting is big; or if they're doing a job T&M and when they total up their hours they kind of freak out.

I've done it, we've probably all done it at some point. After a while, you get used to it and brush it off. I put a few quotes together this summer for some exterior jobs and never heard back from the people. I'd rather shrug and say "oh well" than be up on my ladder panicking thinking "OMG I'M WORKING FOR FREEE!!!"

In the past I'd put a bill together from an hourly job and start thinking "Hmm, maybe I'd better shave some hours off this, that looks pretty high." Then I remember how much pain and suffering went into the job. How I did things properly rather than taking short cuts. I track my hours close and I want to get paid for them.

We're already in one of the least respected trades out there. Why under rate or devalue ourselves? That club's big enough already.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wildbill7145 said:


> This.
> 
> It's not uncommon for painters to get squirrely and anxious when they're putting in a bid on a job and the price they're submitting is big; or if they're doing a job T&M and when they total up their hours they kind of freak out.
> 
> ...


Psychologically, I believe it's a lot more difficult for a self employed painter to be in this trade than a hired painter for the reasons you mentioned above. 

As an employed painter, I'm regularly subjected to the pity placed on my vocation of choice, considering the more respected opportunities found in the multiple trade stratus. I must have some sort of deficiency if I chose to be a painter, right?

But unless you have done painting as a living, you really can't understand the opportunities in this trade, despite the unattractive aesthetics in contrast to other vocations that, stereotypically, maintain a higher appeal in the building industry. I've learned that humility is a priceless character trait in order to sustain interest, motivation, and enthusiasm. That may be the biggest value of a painter.

However, when a painter reaches a point when he or she becomes an owner operator, the dynamics seem to involve a heavier need for self respect that may not necessarily be offered by what should be your peers in terms of other trade contractors. So the sense of just being the "painter", continues to wear at a person, I would imagine.

This would be one of the reasons that as a painting contractor, I would make every effort to get out of the bucket and actually manage a company rather than be one of it's laborers. I could do that anywhere.

Addendum; With all that said, there really is something to being your own boss, I would imagine. But I also don't think people's perceptions would shed that much. This is where a thick skin, along with a sense of humility and a heavy does of integrity, fairness, and firmness, can go a long way towards a healthy attitude.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Yes sometime we are our own worst enemy,


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I pushed it a lot this summer. Likely far too much, for far too long without breaks in between. It didn't help that it was one of the hottest, driest summers in memory. The recuperation times are definitely getting longer. I'm really, really looking forward to the end of exterior season.


I have been thinking the same thing. The work is wearing me out. All I want to do when I get home is collapse. I am so worn out I have not gone to the gym in almost three weeks.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have been thinking the same thing. The work is wearing me out. All I want to do when I get home is collapse. I am so worn out I have not gone to the gym in almost three weeks.


I've decided tonight I'm gonna throw an estimate at one more tonight and go for it. Last one of the season. Then I'm done with it. If they don't go for it. Fine. Other wise, fine. It's all off a 20'er.

Should be easy.


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Should be easy.


Good one. Kinda like
"Hey y'all.....Watch this"


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I've decided tonight I'm gonna throw an estimate at one more tonight and go for it. Last one of the season. Then I'm done with it. If they don't go for it. Fine. Other wise, fine. It's all off a 20'er.
> 
> Should be easy.


I have one more exterior after the one I am doing right now. I am telling anyone that contacts me for an exterior that most likely it will have to wait until the Spring. Exteriors become PITA late Sept early Oct, and I just need a break.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gymschu said:


> "Far too often painters overestimate themselves. And the older a painter gets, the more he or she is over estimating their abilities. Particular, since this business thrives on speed and a strong back. Which we all know, degenerates rapidly after forty."
> 
> ^^^^^THAT is a top 5 all-time PaintTalk quote.
> 
> The problem for me is that I can still push it, just not for an extended period of time, hence I take on the "relaxed" jobs more often these days.


I have found this to be true up to a point. Once I hit 45 or so, I think I started to get smarter and actually realize my abilities. Once I hit 60, I damn well knew what I could and could not do anymore. I am still looking at jobs where I would have to get my 20 ft extension ladder inside, but I am bidding them so high that I am not getting them. Guess what, I don't care, not one little bit.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Exteriors become PITA late Sept early Oct, and I just need a break.


Or way earlier. For example, today's an absolutely beautiful day out here. Not horribly hot, perfect working temperatures. Not a cloud in the sky.

However, everything is completely soaked with dew. All verticals and horizontals. Can't do a bloody thing.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Or way earlier. For example, today's an absolutely beautiful day out here. Not horribly hot, perfect working temperatures. Not a cloud in the sky.
> 
> However, everything is completely soaked with dew. All verticals and horizontals. Can't do a bloody thing.


Last year I did a big deck, which I started in late September. It was on the north side of the building and in the shade of a large tree. What a big mistake.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have been thinking the same thing. The work is wearing me out. All I want to do when I get home is collapse. I am so worn out I have not gone to the gym in almost three weeks.


Pete^^^^^^this is NOT good. That also means your bike is sitting in a dark corner of your garage.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

brushup said:


> Thanks
> I never want to over charge so if i undercharge a little i guess i am okay .


I really hate hearing this. We are in business and you are supposed to be selling value, not time. What we offer is not a commodity. You are in business to maximize profit while serving your customer. If you overcharge you will not get the job. If the customer pays a high price for your service they believe you are worth paying more for. Charge what the maximum allows and leave charity and that feeling you do not deserve to be prosperous with the others that do not risk everything to produce a decent living and income, to the employees of the world working by the hour and trading time for subsistence. 

Let the market determine your rates. Right now the market is screaming at you in brutal honesty that you are charging under market value. And, if the market is saying you are overcharging you will lose the bids and your only option is to raise value and offer a better service and product, not lower prices. 

Reconsider why you are in business to begin with. Maybe you would be better punching a clock somewhere. If you don't need to be spoon fed life and let others determine your future then begin looking at what it means to be in business differently. 

Sorry for the rant but sometimes we focus on entirely the wrong factors when pricing our value.


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

These days I have taken to figuring by the day for large projects. The kind where I can stay busy while other things dry, etc. This way I am taking each day as a win/loss, and don't feel like I am getting too far behind. The daily rate (in my head) is more than I ever thought to charge for painting and it really does help to maximize each days work. It also builds confidence with the customer as I can quote on the spot generally without even taking out a tape to measure. Just add up the days and multiply by ***. I've won some and lost some but that's the game.


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## MurphysPaint (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm of the opinion that we are selling a complete product, not our time. A proper finish, completed on schedule, with quality tools & materials, a safe & clean job site, and the proper insurance. Educating potential clients is part of the sales process, as well is quickly weeding out the window shoppers and penny pinchers. 


Murph


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

MurphysPaint said:


> I'm of the opinion that we are selling a complete product, not our time. A proper finish, completed on schedule, with quality tools & materials, a safe & clean job site, and the proper insurance. Educating potential clients is part of the sales process, as well is quickly weeding out the window shoppers and penny pinchers.
> 
> 
> Murph


 
Seems like that's all I am getting here for the last couple weeks


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## MurphysPaint (Nov 23, 2015)

chrisn said:


> Seems like that's all I am getting here for the last couple weeks




I pre-qualify my potential clients before even going to see them. I ask them questions like "have they hired a painter before ","what is your budget" and "when do you need the work completed" to gauge their level of interest and commitment. If they are unsure of a budget I give them comparable examples, like "we recently painted a 4 bedroom home for $#,### but it can be more or less based on your needs".


Murph


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

chrisn said:


> Seems like that's all I am getting here for the last couple weeks


No kidding. I got my very reasonable bid on a two story cape with detached garage (also two story) severely undercut. I called to follow up on the bid..."Oh, we hired a guy that said he'd do it for $2,200."

:blink:

It's ok. I hate doing exteriors as a one-man operation, especially when you come across siding to be replaced. What a pain by yourself.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

MurphysPaint said:


> I'm of the opinion that we are selling a complete product, not our time. A proper finish, completed on schedule, with quality tools & materials, a safe & clean job site, and the proper insurance. Educating potential clients is part of the sales process, as well is quickly weeding out the window shoppers and penny pinchers.
> 
> 
> Murph


Are you a one-man operation?


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

A timely bog post:

"Commodities
A commodity is a product or a service that no one cared enough about to market.

Marketing creates value, by combining stories, design and care. The product or service is produced in a way that makes engaging with the item better.

Commodities are in the eye of the producer. If you don't want to sell something that's judged merely on price, then don't"

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2016/09/commodities.html


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## MurphysPaint (Nov 23, 2015)

804 Paint said:


> Are you a one-man operation?




I was until I hired a helper a few months ago.


Murph


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> Seems like that's all I am getting here for the last couple weeks


Interesting. Here, with the "painting season" (at least for exterior work) approaching its end, it's just the opposite. We are being inundated with calls from people who thought they could wait until the last minute and then call to have someone be there to start the next day.


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## DJohnston (Sep 3, 2016)

wudshapr said:


> These days I have taken to figuring by the day for large projects. The kind where I can stay busy while other things dry, etc. This way I am taking each day as a win/loss, and don't feel like I am getting too far behind. The daily rate (in my head) is more than I ever thought to charge for painting and it really does help to maximize each days work. It also builds confidence with the customer as I can quote on the spot generally without even taking out a tape to measure. Just add up the days and multiply by ***. I've won some and lost some but that's the game.



I think this is good in most cases.
Easy to keep track of biding by the day.
Some time I bid by the day other times by the hour and some times sq foot. I found by hour or day to Have the best profits. 
I keep track of how much each of our guys makes a day on a chart and document it monthly that way I know who deserves raises / bonus.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> Interesting. Here, with the "painting season" (at least for exterior work) approaching its end, it's just the opposite. We are being inundated with calls from people who thought they could wait until the last minute and then call to have someone be there to start the next day.


That's the other half of the calls


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## painterina (May 25, 2015)

Gwarel said:


> A well organized 4 man crew can get more work done in one day than one man can do in 4 days.


I agree. 

But when I think of an illustrative example, things get a little complicated. 

Let's say a door requires half hour to paint. It will take half hour to paint, whether the painter is one of an organized 4 man crew, or a one man show. With that in mind, a 100 door or 1000 door project will take the same amount of hours to complete. It just takes the one man 4 times longer to complete, but the final cost based on the hours is the same. 

One man can finish an average size room (say 11' by 13') in an 8 hour day. But can a 4 man crew finish 1 room in 2 hours? OK, not possible (dry time, recoat time etc)

One man can get 8 rooms done in 8 days. A 4 man crew surely can get 8 rooms done in 2 days. But most likely, no less than 2 days. 

Perhaps a multiple man crew's productivity would be more evident at bigger jobs, where one man preps, another cuts in, another rolls, and so forth. But then again, it'd be more difficult to keep track of things in large projects and compare a crew's or a crewman's output with a one man's. 

Just a thought.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gymschu said:


> Pete^^^^^^this is NOT good. That also means your bike is sitting in a dark corner of your garage.


I have managed to get some rides in. The bike almost always trumps the gym. Next summer I am going to have to find a way to enjoy my free time more.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

RH said:


> Interesting. Here, with the "painting season" (at least for exterior work) approaching its end, it's just the opposite. We are being inundated with calls from people who thought they could wait until the last minute and then call to have someone be there to start the next day.


I am still getting exterior calls. I am telling them that they will have to wait until Spring, so far only one person has opted to find someone else.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have managed to get some rides in. The bike almost always trumps the gym. Next summer I am going to have to find a way to enjoy my free time more.


Next summer I'm going to carve out freetime.....this work, work,work thing is bs. I got to spend the entire holiday weekend with my hubby and my dogs....fishing. caught nothing, only a couple of bites and realized the missing link is time off to recover....


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> Next summer I'm going to carve out freetime.....this work, work,work thing is bs. I got to spend the entire holiday weekend with my hubby and my dogs....fishing. caught nothing, only a couple of bites and realized the missing link is time off to recover....


I am thinking that next summer when I am doing the jobs that are labor intensive (lots of prep work with scraping and sanding) that I will do 6 hour days. By the end of an 8 hour day in the sun I am worn out.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I am thinking that next summer when I am doing the jobs that are labor intensive (lots of prep work with scraping and sanding) that I will do 6 hour days. By the end of an 8 hour day in the sun I am worn out.


Did you ever hire that helper?


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PRC said:


> Did you ever hire that helper?


Yup, and we have both been working our butts off all summer. And, the calls seems to be increasing. Starting to get many interior calls, and already looking at jobs for the Spring.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

painterina said:


> I agree.
> 
> But when I think of an illustrative example, things get a little complicated.
> 
> ...


Well put. With so many variables its hard to quantify at what point more labor is worth it.


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## painterina (May 25, 2015)

AngieM said:


> Well put. With so many variables its hard to quantify at what point more labor is worth it.


More labor means more profit (for the owner), assuming all workers are working. Profit is in the number, more is more. Even when a 4 person crew took a little longer in total hrs to get the job done (vs 1 person crew), the owner would still profit more per hr or day from the 4 person than 1 person.


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## MurphysPaint (Nov 23, 2015)

painterina said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When you have defined roles for people, i.e. Prep guy, cut guy, roll guy... Etc. You gain efficiency in that you don't have to waste time switching from one task to another. In the world of efficiencies the time it takes to stay a new task is called "lead time" and it is not considered by most people when they try to calculate their time. The time it takes to put down your brush, set aside the ladder, pick up the roller, etc really adds up over the course of a job. Perfect example is a homeowner who picks a dozen colours instead of one or two. Those jobs always take longer, yet it is still the same square footage.


Murph


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Volume is King.

I'd rather have 3 or 4 jobs going and collecting money per week than 1 or 1 every 2 weeks. More volume and more profit.

Plus with volume comes added benefits and not just by material costs coming down.

Visibility goes up. Which means chances of calls and new customers come more often. Have to feed the beast, true. But like a fire it eventually starts self generating. 

And that's just one example of the excess benefits of a large crew and multiple jobs. There are many more.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Gwarel said:


> A well organized 4 man crew can get more work done in one day than one man can do in 4 days. In the end the job is worth what the customer is willing to pay.


I found this thread interesting and believe a job costs x amount no matter a oms or 4 guys. 
But I disagree with most people's reply with the 4 painters vs one or, 2 painters vs one. 
I have worked with many, many crews and have experienced how easily 4 can burn up time even when they are trying to do well. Yes, they can kick butt and get things done, but it can go the other way too.
One occasion I was tasked to paint an exterior, can't remember one coat or two on the siding, but two coats of white trim. The house had a 24 ft tall entry and a slate roof which I had to blonde tape my tarps up onto it. 
I completed it in 4 days totalling 34 hours. My boss had the rest of his crew (4 experienced guys) paint the house next door which was similar in job scope. They were told to compete against me in hours and it took them 85 hours total. 
This is not the only example and I'm not saying I'm the fastest, just efficient.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

ridesarize said:


> I found this thread interesting and believe a job costs x amount no matter a oms or 4 guys.
> But I disagree with most people's reply with the 4 painters vs one or, 2 painters vs one.
> I have worked with many, many crews and have experienced how easily 4 can burn up time even when they are trying to do well. Yes, they can kick butt and get things done, but it can go the other way too.
> One occasion I was tasked to paint an exterior, can't remember one coat or two on the siding, but two coats of white trim. The house had a 24 ft tall entry and a slate roof which I had to blonde tape my tarps up onto it.
> ...


So they did it in about 2.5 days. And (likely) moved onto another project for the rest of the week. That team was likely able to generate more profit overall. Not to negate your skills, it's just that sometimes ya gotta look at the overall picture because the short view doesn't represent the whole story.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Well my boss pays us by the hour and they were bid jobs, so... he paid for 50 more hours plus taxes.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I realize the short math. again, the bigger picture is where the profit is though....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I would agree that an OMS, by virtue of limited resources, has to be more efficient with their time. And therefore, can perform faster than an undisciplined crew of larger proportions. However, next to a disciplined and well orchestrated crew, no way.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> I realize the short math. again, the bigger picture is where the profit is though....


Of course there's a bigger picture to all this, when you're talking about company profit or success, or efficiency. I only gave the one example though, of that contractor with a crew of 5. We switched manpower differently for some jobs, like if if we had 1, 2, or 3 jobs going on. We usually worked as 1 crew though. I absolutely believe working as a crew is good. 
I can't speak for that contractor but if I consistently come under bidded hours by 30%, that gets the company ahead on every job profit wise and timewise. But mind that, that company was not all about knocking jobs out quickest, it was more about quality of our product.
I always try to think both, production and quality. I want to make the company money and be successful.
So my boss would bid an interior, exterior, or whole mill-pack like there was 3 or 4 guys, and then send me and would profit quite a bit and be surprised at how ahead of schedule it was.


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## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

With a larger crew everything hinges on organaztion. You can make more or waste more in the blink of an eye. I am OMS now but had a crew and found they cost more then they made as it was hard to get them to stay organized or efficent. You really need quality people which is scarce now days.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bobross said:


> With a larger crew everything hinges on organaztion. You can make more or waste more in the blink of an eye. I am OMS now but had a crew and found they cost more then they made as it was hard to get them to stay organized or efficent. *You really need quality people which is scarce now days*.


Do you think this is a consequence of poor worker training by painting contractors? And where do painters get their training. 

It seems to me, the boomer generation, in terms of the best building and construction work force in history, is retiring and taking all of their knowledge, skill sets, and work ethics with them. There seems to have been no room for transition training in preparation for today. 

Now we're stuck with a bunch of pants pilots posing as professionals.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> Do you think this is a consequence of poor worker training by painting contractors? And where do painters get their training.
> 
> It seems to me, the boomer generation, in terms of the best building and construction work force in history, is retiring and taking all of their knowledge, skill sets, and work ethics with them. There seems to have been no room for transition training in preparation for today.
> 
> Now we're stuck with a bunch of pants pilots posing as professionals.


My generation was taught if you work with you hands and didn't get a college degree you are a stupid loser. It didn't matter whether or not you should go to college, you had to. I know so many people that dropped out after the first year, I don't know what they're doing now but I doubt many are in the trades. 

We were indoctrinated college degree or a life of misery hence the skilled labor shortage.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Rbriggs82 said:


> My generation was taught if you work with you hands and didn't get a college degree you are a stupid loser. It didn't matter whether or not you should go to college, you had to. I know so many people that dropped out after the first year, I don't know what they're doing now but I doubt many are in the trades.
> 
> We were indoctrinated college degree or a life of misery hence the skilled labor shortage.


I was pretty much taught the same thing (I'm nearly 56). Well, I showed them...I earned two college degrees I've never made a dime with and continued to work with my hands, so I'm a doubly stupid loser! :blink:


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> My generation was taught if you work with you hands and didn't get a college degree you are a stupid loser. It didn't matter whether or not you should go to college, you had to. I know so many people that dropped out after the first year, I don't know what they're doing now but I doubt many are in the trades.
> 
> We were indoctrinated college degree or a life of misery hence the skilled labor shortage.


My Job managers are 26 - 26 and 25 years old.
They have been with us for 4 - 2 - 2 years.
Two have college education one does not but he is very smart.

I have some self taught business knowledge but they all are smarter than me. At least they think that.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Being on both sides of this situation for years, my opinion is:

A well trained crew will outperform the owner. They are cheaper in Overhead and create more surplus value (profit). It's not even close.

Also in what we do, a crew of two is the most common crew. (70-100 hour jobs)
A job for one person is a waste of a manager (they have nobody to manage)
Some larger commercial jobs we have 3-4 people. 

They just need to be efficient enough to make budget.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> My generation was taught if you work with you hands and didn't get a college degree you are a stupid loser. It didn't matter whether or not you should go to college, you had to. I know so many people that dropped out after the first year, I don't know what they're doing now but I doubt many are in the trades.
> 
> We were indoctrinated college degree or a life of misery hence the skilled labor shortage.


As a tail ender of generation Boom, I have more akin to the Gen Exers than I do my own peeps.

In the late 70's, you went directly to the military, or to the trades if you didn't have the GPA, or the family support to get into college. And given that I spent the years from 1966 through 1978 as a victim of social engineering, sponsored by yours truly, California's educational system, it's a wonder I can read a can of paint at all.

But fortunately, I was exposed to many competent people who, with some commitment on my part, taught me a little something.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

George Z said:


> Being on both sides of this situation for years, my opinion is:
> 
> A well trained crew will outperform the owner. They are cheaper in Overhead and create more surplus value (profit). It's not even close.
> 
> ...


Yup, at one point we had 10 guys working and 2 man crews seemed to be the most productive on most jobs. Any more than that productivity seemed to take a dip.


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## 007 Dave (Jun 22, 2016)

ridesarize said:


> I found this thread interesting and believe a job costs x amount no matter a oms or 4 guys.
> But I disagree with most people's reply with the 4 painters vs one or, 2 painters vs one.
> I have worked with many, many crews and have experienced how easily 4 can burn up time even when they are trying to do well. Yes, they can kick butt and get things done, but it can go the other way too.
> One occasion I was tasked to paint an exterior, can't remember one coat or two on the siding, but two coats of white trim. The house had a 24 ft tall entry and a slate roof which I had to blonde tape my tarps up onto it.
> ...


You're hired,I want you one my team brother. Lets see....Seattle to Indianapolis. We start at 8 in the morning. Can you make it ? Bring donuts if you're late..... No Seriously Let me know if you are ever in this area.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> H
> 
> I believe that to be an industry *anonmolly*. Generally, it is not sustainable for a OMS to paint circles around an experienced and competent crew. But there will always be the superheroes of the trade. Just not enough to make it a general comparison.


CA,

Slinger and Chrisn have volunteered to be editors for you when you give up painting and become the literary giant we know you can be. I just wanted to show you that I am already here for you brother!

anonmolly...incorrect anomaly...correct :thumbsup:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> CA,
> 
> Slinger and Chrisn have volunteered to be editors for you when you give up painting and become the literary giant we know you can be. I just wanted to show you that I am already here for you brother!
> 
> anonmolly...incorrect anomaly...correct :thumbsup:


I'm trying to be his online friend campaign manager and it's been somewhat difficult. Given that effectively myself and driftweed are the only members, and drift has departed... It's a tough sell. But he's a Good Fella, so any new club members are welcome.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

007 Dave said:


> You're hired,I want you one my team brother. Lets see....Seattle to Indianapolis. We start at 8 in the morning. Can you make it ? Bring donuts if you're late..... No Seriously Let me know if you are ever in this area.



Okay I'll make it on time and I'll still bring some doughnuts. Well I haven't been that far east since I was like 3 years old. But if I do I'll give ya a heads up.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm trying to be his online friend campaign manager and it's been somewhat difficult. Given that effectively myself and driftweed are the only members, and drift has departed... It's a tough sell. But he's a Good Fella, so any new club members are welcome.


Count me in!


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm trying to be his online friend campaign manager and it's been somewhat difficult. Given that effectively myself and driftweed are the only members, and drift has departed... It's a tough sell. But he's a Good Fella, so any new club members are welcome.


I'll help out. I can be treasurer for the campaign even though I'm clueless about such a position. But it does involve collecting campaign contributions I reckon.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm trying to be his online friend campaign manager and it's been somewhat difficult. Given that effectively myself and driftweed are the only members, and drift has departed... It's a tough sell. But he's a Good Fella, so any new club members are welcome.


Where'd he go, anyway? Man, there's a lot of good folks whose voices I miss...


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

One man operation here you better have a rich wife or husband or significant other working and making good money. Health insurance alone is a huge nut to carry along with all other OH indirect and direct. I hate to sound like a broken record but in my PDCA group long ago we went over every aspect of this discussion. Volume is king period , it's when t runs out that can sink you if all your ducks are not in a row. No one works as hard as the owner in or out of the field ( in most cases). Finding the right help now that's a whole nother issue 🙏


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Where'd he go, anyway? Man, there's a lot of good folks whose voices I miss...


Drift got upset about having to change his password and left the building.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Drift got upset about having to change his password and left the building.


Yah, there were many that didn't make it through the transition it seems. ..too bad. There was a wealth of experience lost in those stupid passwords.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> Yah, there were many that didn't make it through the transition it seems. ..too bad. There was a wealth of experience lost in those stupid passwords.


I still say if an old technology challenged dinosaur like me can handle the password change, anybody should be able to.

I'm thinking old, unused email addresses led to a lot of members not being here anymore.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> I still say if an old technology challenged dinosaur like me can handle the password change, anybody should be able to.
> 
> I'm thinking old, unused email addresses led to a lot of members not being here anymore.


I'd agree to a certain extent, but if you tried to log in and couldn't there's more than one way to get in touch with the admins and get things sorted out.

I honestly think sometimes that people just lose interest in forums for various reasons, tried to log in, couldn't and said "meh" and moved on. Used the password change as an excuse for not bothering. It happens.

I'm a mod on an online poker forum. Haven't played in a couple of years. Kind of lost interest and so I don't even check out the forum anymore. The other mod on there can handle things since the traffic has dropped like a rock.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Observation:

Forums offer an interesting, and somewhat intimate, perspective of its members that traditional socialization doesn't offer. The void of a physical presence eliminates the distraction of body language and sound that often influences the outcome of conversational dynamics. Including creativity, reason, and shared knowledge. 

Do the pauses and latitude of extended reply times add to the truth and integrity of a forum conversation, or does it lend itself to deceit, grandiosity, and arrogance?

I believe certain personalities have difficulty conversing via social media without the leverage of a physical presence. This is typically evident in a poster's need to be right, or brag about their position in life.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Observation:
> 
> Forums offer an interesting, and somewhat intimate, perspective of its members that traditional socialization doesn't offer. The void of a physical presence eliminates the distraction of body language and sound that often influences the outcome of conversational dynamics. Including creativity, reason, and shared knowledge.
> 
> ...


Ca you ever get tired of painting you could write for a living, you have a great way with words,


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Dave Mac said:


> Ca you ever get tired of painting you could write for a living, you have a great way with words,


I've been telling him that for a while. He's just not gonna let go of that brush.:no:


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

brushup said:


> Thanks for the feed back . All good fair points . I guess i feel in the dark 95 % of the time in regards to my competitions prices or even who they are. I am constantly wondering if my prices should be higher. Guess i should just be glad i stay fairly busy


If you not sure, then raise em. And keep raising them until your sure.


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## bobross (Jun 27, 2016)

I told another painter once that i am busy year round. Hos reply was i dont charge enough. I raised my prices the next year 10% and busy took a small dive but still able to stay busy year round. It truly is what the market will bear but i pride myself on running a fair business and being honest and reasonably priced. After all im not a plumber or electrician now there are some crazy rates right there.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bobross said:


> I told another painter once that i am busy year round. Hos reply was i dont charge enough. I raised my prices the next year 10% and busy took a small dive but still able to stay busy year round. It truly is what the market will bear but i pride myself on running a fair business and being honest and reasonably priced. After all im not a plumber or electrician now there are some crazy rates right there.


The long game is about sustainability. Once the market realizes they're being charged a premium for mediocre work, the funds to maintain a painting contractor's exuberant life style begins to dwindle. 

There's just so much a painting contractor is going to get away with, in their quest to match the more technically skilled trades, before something gives. And claiming to provide the best service, in terms of painting, has a limited tolerance before homeowners recognize a nice smile and clean shirt isn't worth the 100-300% mark up.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> The long game is about sustainability. Once the market realizes they're being charged a premium for mediocre work, the funds to maintain a painting contractor's exuberant life style begins to dwindle.
> 
> There's just so much a painting contractor is going to get away with, in their quest to match the more technically skilled trades, before something gives. And claiming to provide the best service, in terms of painting, has a limited tolerance before homeowners recognize a nice smile and clean shirt isn't worth the 100-300% mark up.


That's why ya need boobs, a smile and a clean shirt. ROFLOLOLL..sorry fellas, I just couldn't help myself.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> That's why ya need boobs, a smile and a tight shirt. ROFLOLOLL..sorry fellas, I just couldn't help myself.


I fixed that for ya. Lol.


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## Back On Site (Oct 12, 2016)

A job is a job and should cost the same whether one man or four men do it.

However from experience I find that clients are more reluctant to go for a certain price if you are a one-man band. I think it's a perception thing. If you are redecorating a large room and price it at £4k, then if there are two of you doing it for a fortnight they seem to accept that. However I've done jobs of that scale on my own and maybe taken 3-4 weeks and you get the feeling from them that they think you've overcharged them somehow.

It's a strange one, but I think it's how the human mind works somehow.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> That's why ya need boobs, a smile and a clean shirt. ROFLOLOLL..sorry fellas, I just couldn't help myself.


I've got boobs, but apparently they're not that attractive.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I've got boobs, but apparently they're not that attractive.


Victorias secret has a holster for every shape and size if that helps....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Victorias secret has a holster for every shape and size if that helps....


I already have a holster. Do you mean halter?


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I already have a holster. Do you mean halter?


You put your guns in your holster, and I'll put mine in mine....mine's bedazzled though.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Since we're on the subject of man boobs, there should be a law against men past the age of forty being shirtless in public. There are some old geezers around here who jog, bike ride or do yard work without a shirt. It's just wrong and probably frightening to young children.


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## 54pontiac (Jan 7, 2014)

Back On Site said:


> A job is a job and should cost the same whether one man or four men do it.
> 
> However from experience I find that clients are more reluctant to go for a certain price if you are a one-man band. I think it's a perception thing. If you are redecorating a large room and price it at £4k, then if there are two of you doing it for a fortnight they seem to accept that. However I've done jobs of that scale on my own and maybe taken 3-4 weeks and you get the feeling from them that they think you've overcharged them somehow.
> 
> It's a strange one, but I think it's how the human mind works somehow.


Yes, I think people have an idea of how long a paint job should take that has no relation to reality. If it's interior and they are living there, the time is even shorter. I am a one woman show and have found that to be true. So I tell people what it will cost and how long it will take, so they know up front. 

I have found my niche in small remodels, smaller houses, and women who live alone and don't want a crew of men around. Since I live in a large metropolitan area, this has kept me very busy. I think you have to find your niche to be successful.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

54pontiac said:


> Yes, I think people have an idea of how long a paint job should take that has no relation to reality. If it's interior and they are living there, the time is even shorter. I am a one woman show and have found that to be true. So I tell people what it will cost and how long it will take, so they know up front.
> 
> I have found my niche in small remodels, smaller houses, and women who live alone and don't want a crew of men around. Since I live in a large metropolitan area, this has kept me very busy. I think you have to find your niche to be successful.


The problem, is that one size doesn't fit all in terms of methods for painting. Unlike most trades, where strict standards are generally followed and applied consistently, the finished paint product is simply judged by subjectivity. 

For example, a homeowner may determine that two coats of a primer/finish enamel over bare drywall appears no different than a three coat system of a dedicated drywall primer followed with two coats of a dedicated enamel finish. They have no idea that the primer/finish is likely to fail over time on a high ph bare drywall substrate. At the end of the day, all they know is that painter B wants to charge more than painter A for what will ultimately be the same color and sheen.

An industry without standards is subject to a wide range of interpretation.


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## fipple (Oct 12, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> You put your guns in your holster, and I'll put mine in mine....mine's bedazzled though.


Are you ok?:blink:


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## fipple (Oct 12, 2016)

54pontiac said:


> Yes, I think people have an idea of how long a paint job should take that has no relation to reality. If it's interior and they are living there, the time is even shorter. I am a one woman show and have found that to be true. So I tell people what it will cost and how long it will take, so they know up front.
> 
> I have found my niche in small remodels, smaller houses, and women who live alone and don't want a crew of men around. Since I live in a large metropolitan area, this has kept me very busy. I think you have to find your niche to be successful.


Is this niche hard to find? if one fumbles enough could one stumble upon it?


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

54pontiac said:


> Yes, I think people have an idea of how long a paint job should take that has no relation to reality. If it's interior and they are living there, the time is even shorter. I am a one woman show and have found that to be true. So I tell people what it will cost and how long it will take, so they know up front.
> 
> I have found my niche in small remodels, smaller houses, and women who live alone and don't want a crew of men around. Since I live in a large metropolitan area, this has kept me very busy. I think you have to find your niche to be successful.


i have a crew of 4 woman .... your 100% right homeowners love it

Being the only male and working with 4 girls can be a bit tough on me 
some days

have your ever won a argument with 1 woman? 
good luck winning with 4 :blink:

but i am lucky they are excellent painters, great workers & usually i just leave after an hour and let them do their work

having a girl crew has really helped my business :thumbsup:

.


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