# Spar Varnish or Poly



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

I just bid a church interior--a small rural church. It has it's original varnished yellow pine wood work which was shellaced. Finish is in reasonalbly good shape.

Would you use Spar Varnish-Oil Poly-Waterbourne Poly-Shellac-or other clear material. Why and what brand do you suggest.

If I can find a way to keep a wet edge, I'd like to re-shellac. Keeping open time is the most critical factor. Need to feather back into wet edge to insure proper finish no matter what material.

Ideas and suggestion are welcomed. Thanks.

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Shellac would probably dry way too fast. Oil poly is likely the best for open time. I have been liking an oil modified urethane called Zar Ultramax. Maybe sample it on some loose pine and see if it would stay open long enough for you.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Thanks for your reply Scott. Here are a couple of pictures, although not great shots, you'll get the idea.

Shellac has almost no open time. Are you aware of any shellac extender that would work in a similar way to Pentrol?

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JTP

I am not aware of such a product. Shellac to me is a product to use when you want super fast dry times. Even if you could extend it to twice the open time (which no extender seems to do in any product), it wouldnt be enough.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

If those pictures are typical of the entire scope, I think it could be done with shellac if you isolate each individual trim element and on the doors do them one stile and rail at a time. You would have to be sharp with the brush work to avoid dragging and flashing but I think it could be done. It probably wouldnt be my first choice though.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I've been trying to understand for a long time how the "old timers" applied shellac as well as they did.

The only hints I got were that it was thinned with alcohol and multiple coats applied. Don't know how much fact or fiction there is in this. 

Orange being a lot harder to apply evenly than white.

Any oldtimers here that know the secret?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have a colleague in a cabinet shop who makes his own. It is made from fly crap (no kidding). From there you can tweak your concentration. I'm not THAT into it. I'll take my fly poo straight from Zinsser's can.


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

I've seen a lot of pine with shellac in this rural area as well. I assume you are sure that it is shellac, knowing that shellac won't adhear to poly. I've always switched over to poly for the very reason you mentioned that the open time on shellac is zip.
I've reduced shellac and alcohol 50/50 applied to yeallow pine door, then stained over to make a match to heart pine trim. Open time is better but it didn't seal completely.
Cool looking church, love the stained glass windows.
BTW wouldn't oil based poly be less brittle then shellac and will water based poly adhere to shellac?
Sage


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I have a colleague in a cabinet shop who makes his own. It is made from fly crap (no kidding). From there you can tweak your concentration. I'm not THAT into it. I'll take my fly poo straight from Zinsser's can.


This got me searching. Granted, I am partial to shellac so it may be understandable why these are positive snippets:

from: http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/author/zinsser/shellac.html

_Shellac, as the word is commonly used, refers to all forms of purified lac - a natural resin secreted by the tiny lac insect on certain trees, principally in India and Thailand._


and:

_Common Shellac Myths

*Myth: Shellac is made from bugs or bug droppings.*
FACT: Shellac is a resin secreted by the lac insect to form a cocoon, much like a silk worm. It takes about 100,000 lac bugs to make 1 lb. of shellac resin.

*Myth: A shellac finish turns white when water touches it.*
FACT: Fresh shellac is remarkably water-resistant and, in most cases, will stay clear after hours of exposure to water, making it a great finish for most interior surfaces, including woodwork, trim, doors, cabinets, paneling, floors (yes, floors!) and furniture.

*Myth: Shellac scratches easily and is very brittle.*
FACT: Shellac is a durable finish that is much less brittle than lacquer and does not scratch as easily. Unlike polyurethane, a damaged shellac finish can be easily touched up or renewed by applying another coat. 

*Myth: Shellac is incompatible with other finishes*.
FACT: Shellac will adhere tenaciously when applied over almost any other type of finish. When used as a sealer under certain polyurethanes, however, regular shellac may not be compatible because it contains a small amount of natural wax. To seal wood before applying polyurethane and other finishes we developed Bulls Eye® SealCoat,™ a shellac-base universal sealer that is 100% wax-free.

*Myth: Shellac turns an ugly dark color as it ages.*
FACT: Shellac is UV-resistant and does not yellow or darken with age. The dark shellac that people see in older homes is a less-refined version of shellac that either was naturally dark or was tinted by contractors when dark wood colors were preferred in the early 20th century.

*Myth: Shellac is an old-fashioned, outdated finish.*
FACT: Shellac has more modern features and benefits than any other wood finish in the world._


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Thanks Sage and D'arch and Scott--

Here's a thought: I have to mask off the windows anyway so-- Hows about I just prep the windows and wainscott, and spray two coats of shellac? I could cut my second coat with perhaps 15 percent alcohol. I'd have to move fast--like doing a car-make one good pass and move, move, move.

Or spray another material that has the sheen quality (high gloss) the church wants to maintain. Sage makes a good point whereby, perhaps an oil poly would work equally as well and provide enough wet edge time.

If I use shellac, it will be white as opposed to amber. The exsiting woodwork does not need any more color. 

Scott-- I may also be able to piece meal each object so that, by isolation, one stile, panel, every two wainscott boards (4 or so inches) gets finished, left to dry-- 20 minutes or less to re-coat in my experience--especially after first new coat is applied. By doing each individual piece of a window or door, etc, you would avoid lapping your very tacky adjacent area you just completed--just say no and resist the tendecy to smooth out the brush strokes--your brush will just stick and goop up the whole piece. That what you are getting at Scott?

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Yes sir.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Yes sir.


To which part my friend Scott of Vermont?

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JTP said:


> Scott-- I may also be able to piece meal each object so that, by isolation, one stile, panel, every two wainscott boards (4 or so inches) gets finished, left to dry-- 20 minutes or less to re-coat in my experience--especially after first new coat is applied. By doing each individual piece of a window or door, etc, you would avoid lapping your very tacky adjacent area you just completed--just say no and resist the tendecy to smooth out the brush strokes--your brush will just stick and goop up the whole piece. That what you are getting at Scott?
> 
> JTP


This part.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Sage Said--Cool looking church, love the stained glass windows.

Here are a few more window shots Sage:


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This part.


Thanks--don't like the spraying idea?

JTP


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JTP said:


> Thanks--don't like the spraying idea?
> 
> JTP


I have only sprayed shellac out of rattle cans. Lots of dryfall and clogged tips. There are probably guys here with actual spraying experience with shellac that could tell you how it works. You know me...always brushing things I could be spraying.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I have only sprayed shellac out of rattle cans. Lots of dryfall and clogged tips. There are probably guys here with actual spraying experience with shellac that could tell you how it works. You know me...always brushing things I could be spraying.


When spraying any material, I keep a 10 can with a little bit of solution in it and a small wire brush. If and when my tip clogs, I just dip my brush in the solution and clean the tip on the fly. However, I would use a compressor set up and cup gun if I were to spray shellac. Actually, I have never sprayed shellac--lots of latex, oil, and poly. I'd have to experiment some if I were to spray. When using an airless I use a rac iv tip which you clean by reversing the tip and triggering the gun. This works well when you need to get the Yellow Jacket off your ass--it also makes one hell of a mess if you miss the Jacket in mid air and hit the trim you didn't want sprayed to hell.

Da'Arch said any old timers out there want to chime in? Older than me which is a little south of 60.

JTP


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www.targetcoatings.com/sealer_ox_shellac.html

A company called Allback also has the waterbase shellac. In NY ..


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*Thanks Roadog*



Roadog said:


> http://www.targetcoatings.com/sealer_ox_shellac.html
> 
> A company called Allback also has the waterbase shellac. In NY ..


 
Roadog--yet another excellent alternative. I read up on the material they present on this product. This could work out very well I think. Since I have not gotten the bid yet, I am still investigating material options and techniques at this point. I really appreciate the heads up on this product. I suspect several others here would be very interested in a waterbourne shellac--never knew it existed. The fact that this product has no wax (dewaxed) makes it a option for recoating over the exisiting church finish. Thanks a lot.

JTP


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

JTP said:


> Da'Arch said any old timers out there want to chime in? Older than me which is a little south of 60.
> 
> JTP


Yah, me too. I'm so little south, I'm almost at the pole. Next July, bro.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> Yah, me too. I'm so little south, I'm almost at the pole. Next July, bro.


Good to know we have at least one other old--well sort of old--timer on PT--I'll be 58 in February and heading north till I get home.

JTP


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

Zinsser Seal Coat..sanding sealer, is a de-waxed shellac also.


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

Roadog thanks for the info. the Oxford Ultra Seal sounds like a great product. Do you use it? I sent for a demo can, we'll see what happens.

JTP, thanks for the additional photos, those windows are just beautiful. 
Did you read that the Ultra Seal can be wiped on or sprayed?
Interesting product.
Sage


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Roadog said:


> Zinsser Seal Coat..sanding sealer, is a de-waxed shellac also.


I'll look up the specs on this product too. I use Zinsser products often. Was not familiar with this one however. Thanks Dog.

JTP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

sage said:


> Roadog thanks for the info. the Oxford Ultra Seal sounds like a great product. Do you use it? I sent for a demo can, we'll see what happens.
> 
> JTP, thanks for the additional photos, those windows are just beautiful.
> Did you read that the Ultra Seal can be wiped on or sprayed?
> ...


Sage-- Yep--read the specs and instructions--good info--never too old or proud to learn. I will be more deliberate if I get the job. This preliminary research has worked out well and to my definite advantage. If you don't know ask-- my motto almost always.

Glad you enjoyed the stained glass pics. We have really beautiful work in our small little churches up here.

JTP


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

You can order your own shellac chips online and very easily find directons on how to cut it.

Here's one that came up first: http://www.shellac.net/lit.html

I've worked with shellac many times on antique wood, including churches.
Everything in a church should be easy to do in shellac. There are lots of natural stops that allow you to get it on quickly. 

The more you cut shellac, the faster it dries. Alcohol is the drying agent. This should be as easy as sanding, wiping and laying on one full strength coat of shellac.

The wood yellows under any coating. This and amber shellac give you the patina. No shellac is perfectly clear, but the amber isn't very noticable.

As far as refinishing, when I worked at an antique resto shop, the only deviation from period type hand work, was to use satin poly rather than the original finishes. It's clearer, lasts longer and resists more chemicals.
Water poly is super thin and it bubbles in corners. Not the best for this type of work.

Shellac's achiles heel is that alcoholic beverages, colognes, perfumes, or anything with alchohol in it, will ruin it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Joewho said:


> Shellac's achiles heel is that alcoholic beverages, colognes, perfumes, or anything with alchohol in it, will ruin it.



Joe, you are correct that alcohol will have a detrimental effect on shellac, BUT (did you see that coming  ) it is easily repairable.

Many of the houses built before the advent of polyurethane on floors, had the oak floors finished with orange shellac - and then waxed (still the best floor finish, IMO). I once was asked to repair a floor on which some leaky planters had sat for years. I sanded the blackened areas down to good wood and just applied new orange shellac to that bare wood. You could not tell where the repair was. :thumbup:

I am still a huge fan of shellac for certain uses.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree Arch there are a lot of Orange shellac floors in APT's in Chicago and we use to clean them up a lot and it was easy...


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## jakelopezfinishes (Dec 28, 2007)

Lacquer retarder will also work in shellac for a little more open time. Also an "old timers" trick my late grandfather tought me was to add a little turpentine or paint thinner into the shellac to slow it down. I've only used the latter trick and it does work but I usually spray if possible.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Thanks Jake-- I'm getting some super information on this thread. To all who have responded so far--thanks a heck of a lot.

JTP


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

you could stroke that out, or shoot it with a turbine, there are nice manageable areas. (move with a quickness if you stroke it)

or i would wax the existing shellac with #0000 steel wool and buff it with a terrycloth
towels, turning them over often

either way would give you a very nice finish.

if theres some areas that have failed, some denatured alcohol and some steel wool could help revive those spots.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

johnthepainter said:


> you could stroke that out, or shoot it with a turbine, there are nice manageable areas. (move with a quickness if you stroke it)
> 
> or i would wax the existing shellac with #0000 steel wool and buff it with a terrycloth
> towels, turning them over often
> ...


John-- I don't have hvlp equipment. I do have a cup gun/compressor set up and Titan 440i airless. There are enough stop points, coast to coast, which will allow for Vermont's suggestion to piece meal, by brush, each component, let dry and do adjacent components. As in--do all the right hand upper shashes-return when complete for all windows in the sanctuary-return and complete left upper sashes, and so on. That could work out well, but moving pretty fast is key. 

I am going to experiment with extenders that have been suggested and see if cutting witth some turp or spirits works well and doesn't gum up the process. Never heard of mixing shellac with an oil base product-but it was suggested and I am going to try that out. I am wondering if a second coat over shellac with a turp based small cut will harm the second coat going on?

I like the idea of spraying much better since I have to mask anyway and all the pews are being removed to allow me to work the ceiling. I don't have the job yet, but I am trying to get my ducks in a row if I do. It's a good bit of work for me and one helper who knows squat about anything right now.

I am wondering if I use the lacquer retarder in my quart cup gun how things will go. I go definitely move quicker with this set up. Worried about having to stop every minute of so to clean the tip out though. That really messes timing up having to stop spraying and clean the tip. I don't want to overlay spray from 30 seconds ago with new spray only a few seconds old unless the extender will keep open time long enough for the both sprays to meld into one nice looking finish. I guess I am saying, I don't want a spray lap mark where two coats overlap. We all know painting wet to wet on almost every type of work is one key to a good finish job.

Additionally--I have never wiped shellac. Wondering if someone can explain that process a little better.

Thanks Johnthepainter (Guess what JTP stands for.)

JTP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Yep--you guessed it.


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## jakelopezfinishes (Dec 28, 2007)

JTP,

If your gonna spray it with your cup gun you dont need the extender just thin till you like how it sprays. I'd definately spray if its an option=better finish plus its faster even after masking especially for multiple coats. The Zinsser Seal Coat mentioned would be a great choice for a bond/seal coat and then topped with a good poly. Spraying the shellac is pretty easy pretty much like lacquer just make sure you use a very clean gun.I had a worker use my dedicated shellac airless in latex enamel once without me knowing until I went to use it with shellac again. He didnt clean the inside of the inlet hose very well and after being in Seal Coat for a few minutes the shellac started to loosen the residule paint in the inlet and started clogging the tip and left white spots on the cabinet doors I was sealing.He got a foot in the ###! Some guys may laugh at this but a good little airless for shellac, clear or pigmented or just about any other thin product is one of the little wagner 9140s's. Junk the stock gun and put a good gun on this unit with a 310 ff tip and you got yourself a great little dedicated rig for about $400 and thats after putting a good gun on it. I like these rigs a lot for jobs just like the one your talking about right now, very small and easy cleanup. I have Graco, Spraytech, Airlessco and Titan airlesses and on jobs such as this one I'd grab the little guy every time. Sorry to ramble on just passing learned info on.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

This probably goes without saying but...
I would consider wiping that wood down with lacquer thinner real good. I bet its been "pledged" once a month for years.


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Jake and Bender--Thanks for the help on this thread. If and when I get the job and it is complete, I'll post some photos and tell you what I did and why. I was planning on cleaning the woodwork for sure. Laquer thinner may be a bit strong though for cleaning. I was thinking more like TSP substitute and a little all purpose cleaner--wipe on wipe off with nice clean cotton cloths.

JTP


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## sage (Apr 29, 2007)

JTP said:


> Jake and Bender--Thanks for the help on this thread. If and when I get the job and it is complete, I'll post some photos and tell you what I did and why. I was planning on cleaning the woodwork for sure. Laquer thinner may be a bit strong though for cleaning. I was thinking more like TSP substitute and a little all purpose cleaner--wipe on wipe off with nice clean cotton cloths.
> 
> JTP


I quit using TSP because of the rinse requirement, I use Krud Kutter instead.
Sage


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

sage said:


> I quit using TSP because of the rinse requirement, I use Krud Kutter instead.
> Sage


maybe try the rinse free TSP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

Sage and Nami--Thanks for the cleaning tips.

JTP


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Disclaimer: The cleaning tips expressed by Tsunami Contracting were in response to Sage's cleaning woes and not necessarily my recommended cleaner for this situation (as I have never been in the situation you described JTP)


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Disclaimer: The cleaning tips expressed by Tsunami Contracting were in response to Sage's cleaning woes and not necessarily my recommended cleaner for this situation (as I have never been in the situation you described JTP)


Nami--thanks--understood.

JTP


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## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

*Din't get the job*

Thanks for all the great input. Although I did not get the job, and I bid it crazy low, the information is and was super to have. Thanks to all for chiming in on this thread.

I'm thinking about re-bidding and subtracting the woodwork. Would cut the job roughly in half. 9 grand + materials was a bargain, but it's a small rural church. Oh well--guess I'll go paint apartments for 66 cents a room.

JTP


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Bummer
I hate losing bids.


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