# trying to get better at spraying



## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

hello fellow painters from around the world.

Is there a good place online to learn about the finer points of airless spraying? I know the basics, but as a new spray man i find it difficult to get consistent results. 

If you guys know of good threads on the subject, id like to know about it.

thanks


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I'd probably start with YouTube. Lots of "how tos" there by pro painters. It comes with the bonus that actually watching people do stuff goes a lot farther than just reading what's typed up about it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

jazzycucumber said:


> hello fellow painters from around the world.
> 
> Is there a good place online to learn about the finer points of airless spraying? I know the basics, but as a new spray man i find it difficult to get consistent results.
> 
> ...


Youtube is a great resource for learning, but doesn't replace the actual hands on experience. You have to get all of your senses involved. Even if it means tasting, But not always....I'm joking. Don't ingest paint. It's hard to get off your teeth.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

youtube gave me its all already, i wish that guy xc painter was still making video, aha.

Im wondering about optimal 1 coat paint thickness on new drywall. i know i can put it on thicker because the drywall is "thirsty" but yesterday threw me off, i was spraying roman pro 977 wallpaper primer and all was looking good until i came back to spray the ceillings, i had a lot of runs in the wall ceilling angles.

my question is, what is a good coat? do you make it cover completely on your first pass and then do the same thing on the overlap or do you make it thinner on the first pass and then your 50% overlap completes the coverage? jeez thats a lot of words


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

The overlap is what completes the coverage. If you put it on that heavy, be prepared for some serious backrolling.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

thanks! i'll try to make lighter passes then.

wish you guys have a great evening


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

There's nothing better than just doing it. Here is my best advice.
1. It's best to use smaller tips than you think should, that will eliminate a lot of runs. You can always move faster if you need to. 
2. Force yourself to squeeze before you hit the surface, then just off, your hand should always be moving. 
3. Watch for things that will catch your hand or arm that will stop you from moving the gun. 
4. A spray pattern is flat and not three dimentional. So when spraying jambs or pieces that have lots of angle, you have to hit most of them, but overlaps is where the runs occur so plan your spray strategy ahead of time.

As a note on your primer run problem. I am betting you were using constant trigger? Where you don't release the trigger but just move over to start your overlap. That's a pro move, knowing when to flick your wrist to eliminate the build-up at the joint takes practice.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

MikeCalifornia said:


> There's nothing better than just doing it. Here is my best advice.
> 1. It's best to use smaller tips than you think should, that will eliminate a lot of runs. You can always move faster if you need to.
> 2. Force yourself to squeeze before you hit the surface, then just off, your hand should always be moving.
> 3. Watch for things that will catch your hand or arm that will stop you from moving the gun.
> ...


yeah i was doing the constant trigger thing. I think that thoses units i did were also problematic because they used to be the one where the trash slide used to be, and now there was only a plywood in the window, hence a bit of cold air was going around every room.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Your suppose to backroll on drywall to provide even application and proper penetration. You are backrolling aren't you!??


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Depending on who did the taping, and what kind of finish they want, spray-only can be acceptable. 

I've done some jobs for low-income housing where I tinted the primer to the wall colour, sprayed, and then rolled one coat of finish with the cheapest paint I could get. Cheapest paint, as spec'd by the city, so they can repaint the units for cheap due to high turnover.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

backrolled ceilings, not the wallpaper primer. 
gotta do what the foreman says, such is life


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Personally I don't see the point in even using a wallpaper primer if your not going to practice proper application methods. I'm sorry, but backrolling on bare drywall is essential from all I've learned. You non backrollers can argue if you want, but it's falling on deaf ears.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

50 % coverage on every pass. Some youtube videos are good, and some are not. Beware. When we are spraying walls, my first pass is half on the wall, half on the ceiling (mask as necessary). I center the spray pattern on the corner between the ceiling and wall. Next pass, the top of your spray pattern should be at the corner, so your second pass will now have 100% coverage on the top half of the pass and the lower half is 50% coverage. Each pass after that, I am centering the fan on bottom edge of the previous pass. The gun should stay perpendicular to the wall always. Do not sway your hand as you move from one side to the other. It should also stay an equal distance from the surface while remaining perpendicular for the entire pass. If you sway or turn your hand as you're spraying, you will make smiles and have uneven coverage. You should also be moving at the beginning of each pass before you pull the trigger and you don't stop until after you have released the trigger. Otherwise, you will be loading up the wall at the beginning and end of each section if you are not moving or just keep it triggered. I have seen videos of guys not doing this. It is poor technique. As you get more experience and see these things happen, there are times when you may break some of these rules for different situations, but it takes experience.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I usually tint my primer, spray the walls, hitting the ceilings a bit, then switch to my ceiling paint in a closet. Then I spray the ceilings, hitting the tops of the walls a bit. Zero cutting in needed for the ceilings, just a quick backroll, and the tops of the walls are no biggie to cut in with the finish.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Does anyone spray and backroll when working alone? Just wondering, and, if so, how you do it? With paints setting up as fast as they do, its got to be somewhat frantic.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Joe67 said:


> Does anyone spray and backroll when working alone? Just wondering, and, if so, how you do it? With paints setting up as fast as they do, its got to be somewhat frantic.


 Ya, I've done it tons. You just work in sections and try to spray it on generously. No problem in smaller rooms.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Joe67 said:


> Does anyone spray and backroll when working alone? Just wondering, and, if so, how you do it? With paints setting up as fast as they do, its got to be somewhat frantic.


This is something I don't quite understand. Why would you spray, then back roll?

It seems in the time It would take me to set up the airless, mask for overspray protection, and even the act of spraying itself prior to back rolling (let alone clean up) I could have casually rolled half the room out. With that said, I could see the airless being used as a cut in tool with a wand.

The only time I've ever sprayed and back rolled, was on heavy textured stucco where even spraying and back rolling was difficult due to warm and windy conditions.


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## jazzycucumber (Mar 18, 2019)

Respec said:


> 50 % coverage on every pass. Some youtube videos are good, and some are not. Beware. When we are spraying walls, my first pass is half on the wall, half on the ceiling (mask as necessary). I center the spray pattern on the corner between the ceiling and wall. Next pass, the top of your spray pattern should be at the corner, so your second pass will now have 100% coverage on the top half of the pass and the lower half is 50% coverage. Each pass after that, I am centering the fan on bottom edge of the previous pass. The gun should stay perpendicular to the wall always. Do not sway your hand as you move from one side to the other. It should also stay an equal distance from the surface while remaining perpendicular for the entire pass. If you sway or turn your hand as you're spraying, you will make smiles and have uneven coverage. You should also be moving at the beginning of each pass before you pull the trigger and you don't stop until after you have released the trigger. Otherwise, you will be loading up the wall at the beginning and end of each section if you are not moving or just keep it triggered. I have seen videos of guys not doing this. It is poor technique. As you get more experience and see these things happen, there are times when you may break some of these rules for different situations, but it takes experience.


very detailed answer, its like i'm there doing it.

Talking about backrolling, how threatening is the adhesion issue to new drywall? I have seen it once, where the paint just lifted up like a deflated ballon from a corner while pulling tape.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> This is something I don't quite understand. Why would you spray, then back roll?
> 
> It seems in the time It would take me to set up the airless, mask for overspray protection, and even the act of spraying itself prior to back rolling (let alone clean up) I could have casually rolled half the room out. With that said, I could see the airless being used as a cut in tool with a wand.
> 
> The only time I've ever sprayed and back rolled, was on heavy textured stucco where even spraying and back rolling was difficult due to warm and windy conditions.


I’d like to hear the answer to this also. I typically handle re-paints, but paint new construction once in a while.

At one point in the past I researched whether to back-roll or not, and I typically back-roll ... now I can’t even remember why.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> I’d like to hear the answer to this also. I typically handle re-paints, but paint new construction once in a while.
> 
> At one point in the past I researched whether to back-roll or not, and I typically back-roll ... now I can’t even remember why.


 Well, for new construction, its no contest. Especially for the primer. Its waaay faster. No cutting in on those dusty corners. If you don't back roll, the primer doesn't get driven into the drywall as well and just looks spotty with improper texture build. 
Its proper practice from all I've learned and I sleep way better at night. I dont spray my top coats. I would rather spray all my trim then cut and roll top coats, although alot of blow and go garbage monsters will spray everything..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Following thoughts:
1. Spraying lends itself to a greater wet film thickness than a pressure application, i.e. brushing and rolling.
2. A wet film on it's own, will absorb into a substrate as surface tension increases via solvent evaporation and subsequent coalescence.
3. Pushing a wet film into a surface decreases the WFT and subsequent dry film thickness on the surface of a substrate
4. Textured surfaces benefit more with back rolling, but are often just sprayed
5. For smooth walls, rolling helps fill voids, pinholes, and other imperfections that don't easily fill with a static WFT i.e. spraying.

Comment:
For smooth wall interiors, I can understand why spraying and back rolling a primer on a new drywall interior would be beneficial in order to eliminate time consuming cut in and to better fill imperfections i.e. joint compound pinholes. But after that, I don't see the benefit of applying a finish in the same manner. I would either brush and roll, or spray. Not both. It just seems like an un-necessary extra step in the application process.

Question: 
For touch up purposes, If you did spray and back roll the primer, but chose to just spray the finish without back rolling, would the roller texture of the primer be revealed enough to assist in concealing any touch ups applied with a tight roller there after?


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Well, for new construction, its no contest. Especially for the primer. Its waaay faster. No cutting in on those dusty corners. If you don't back roll, the primer doesn't get driven into the drywall as well and just looks spotty with improper texture build.
> Its proper practice from all I've learned and I sleep way better at night. I dont spray my top coats. I would rather spray all my trim then cut and roll top coats, although alot of blow and go garbage monsters will spray everything..


I usually don't back roll new plaster, but almost always backroll final coat on walls and ceilings if spraying, although I rarely spray final coat on walls. Like Kevyn said, I spray the trim first, then roll finish on walls. The main reason we back roll is to make touch up easier later on. After all the trades have left, we can walk around with a roller and do touch ups and have them blend in easier.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Following thoughts:
> 1. Spraying lends itself to a greater wet film thickness than a pressure application, i.e. brushing and rolling.
> 2. A wet film on it's own, will absorb into a substrate as surface tension increases via solvent evaporation and subsequent coalescence.
> 3. Pushing a wet film into a surface decreases the WFT and subsequent dry film thickness on the surface of a substrate
> ...


I have found there is a difference in the sheen, and that is a big part of the reason the touch up stands out. A sprayed ceiling is shinier than a rolled ceiling using the same product. If you just spray a ceiling, and then touch up with a roller, the rolled spot appears flatter than the rest of the ceiling. I have been successful with some of the new ultra flat products touching up though. I sprayed Promar ceiling and didn't back roll it, and then of course, the homeowners decided to move a light fixture and I had to patch a 6" hole in the middle of the ceiling. The ceiling had been previously rolled, so it did show roller texture. The touch up blended in perfectly, although I was sweating the whole time. I was afraid I was going to have to paint the whole ceiling. I did it one previous time with the Promar ceiling where we sprayed the ceiling and had a touch up, but we noticed it the next day and touched it up with the sprayer. Both times, it was like it never happened. The Promar ceiling dries ultra flat.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I agree. An ever so slight stippled finish helps with touch ups. However, I still don't see how introducing the stress of spraying can be beneficial when you end up using a roller anyway. You can dip a roller in a five and slap a load of paint pretty quickly and still have time to roll it out evenly.

I just like the methodical and peaceful process of rolling verses the noisy airless, overspray, cramped trigger fingers, dragging hoses, clogged tips, and the clean up. Not to mention the herniated disk from lifting that heavy motor all over the place. At the end of the day, I think spraying is an application designed to hit it and walk away without any further disturbance.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

CApainter said:


> I agree. An ever so slight stippled finish helps with touch ups. However, I still don't see how introducing the stress of spraying can be beneficial when you end up using a roller anyway. You can dip a roller in a five and slap a load of paint pretty quickly and still have time to roll it out evenly.
> 
> I just like the methodical and peaceful process of rolling verses the noisy airless, overspray, cramped trigger fingers, dragging hoses, clogged tips, and the clean up. Not to mention the herniated disk from lifting that heavy motor all over the place. At the end of the day, I think spraying is an application designed to hit it and walk away without any further disturbance.



Go do an apartment building. Spraying ftw


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Masterwork said:


> Go do an apartment building. Spraying ftw


I probably would spray it and walk away. No fiddle faddling around with the roller.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Following thoughts:
> 1. Spraying lends itself to a greater wet film thickness than a pressure application, i.e. brushing and rolling.
> - Hard to get an even FT on bare drywall without backrolling
> 2. A wet film on it's own, will absorb into a substrate as surface tension increases via solvent evaporation and subsequent coalescence.
> ...


See above answers in Red


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

finishesbykevyn said:


> See above answers in Red





finishesbykevyn said:


> See above answers in Red
> CApainter said:
> Following thoughts:
> 1. Spraying lends itself to a greater wet film thickness than a pressure application, i.e. brushing and rolling.
> ...


Rebuttal:
1. Even with back rolling, most bare substrates will have variations of absorption that will be revealed once the paint film has developed after solvent evaporation has been completed.
2. True
3. Good point about adhesion, but the absorption issue will remain and will be noticed once the film cures. (BTW, it is always recommended to stripe coat bare metal welds with a brush, rather than with a roller, prior to spraying or rolling. The brush can apply the coating thicker than a roller can).
4. Texture lends itself to peaks, valleys, and cliffs that can't be covered adequately with a single pass of a typical spray pattern. "Back rolling compresses wet film into all directions" - Confucious. (Xing Dynasty circa 6th Century)
5. And even though pinholes will be filled, an uneven appearance will remain, requiring a subsequent intermediate coat with either a primer or finish as a leveler. In the same way a sanding sealer still needs an intermediate primer over the top of it once it's sanded .
6. I would imagine not much sanding is required if it were to be rolled again? I could understand smoothing it down for a spray finish.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Rebuttal:
> 1. Even with back rolling, most bare substrates will have variations of absorption that will be revealed once the paint film has developed after solvent evaporation has been completed.
> 2. True
> 3. Good point about adhesion, but the absorption issue will remain and will be noticed once the film cures. (BTW, it is always recommended to stripe coat bare metal welds with a brush, rather than with a roller, prior to spraying or rolling. The brush can apply the coating thicker than a roller can).
> ...


 You can totally "get away" with not backrolling or pole sanding. AKA the world won't end. However, it's proper practice to do so. Atleast thats what I learned in school. But not everyone follows the rules.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

There are some coatings that are spray only, so no backrolling allowed! Gotta just make sure you get it right the first time


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

finishesbykevyn said:


> You can totally "get away" with not backrolling or pole sanding. AKA the world won't end. However, it's proper practice to do so. Atleast thats what I learned in school. But not everyone follows the rules.


There used to be a time when you had no choice but to roll. The unions were really against spraying back in the day because it meant less labor time. Maybe that's why rolling is still considered a best practice. On the other hand, these California Tract developers only want to spend labor costs on blow and goes, which rarely, if ever, involves brushing and rolling.

But I would agree that rolling is the best practice of application. Spraying better serves metal substrates.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Respec said:


> I have found there is a difference in the sheen, and that is a big part of the reason the touch up stands out. A sprayed ceiling is shinier than a rolled ceiling using the same product. If you just spray a ceiling, and then touch up with a roller, the rolled spot appears flatter than the rest of the ceiling. I have been successful with some of the new ultra flat products touching up though. I sprayed Promar ceiling and didn't back roll it, and then of course, the homeowners decided to move a light fixture and I had to patch a 6" hole in the middle of the ceiling. The ceiling had been previously rolled, so it did show roller texture. The touch up blended in perfectly, although I was sweating the whole time. I was afraid I was going to have to paint the whole ceiling. I did it one previous time with the Promar ceiling where we sprayed the ceiling and had a touch up, but we noticed it the next day and touched it up with the sprayer. Both times, it was like it never happened. The Promar ceiling dries ultra flat.


Good point.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> There used to be a time when you had no choice but to roll. The unions were really against spraying back in the day because it meant less labor time. Maybe that's why rolling is still considered a best practice. On the other hand, these California Tract developers only want to spend labor costs on blow and goes, which rarely, if ever, involves brushing and rolling.
> 
> But I would agree that rolling is the best practice of application. Spraying better serves metal substrates.


Its RIDICULOUSLY faster to spray and backroll, than to just roll. Especially with primer and two top coats on raw walls Just saving the brushwork alone is well worth it. Not to mention, you can very often skip a 2nd coat on walls. We would spray, backroll, then do a 2nd quick wet coat and call it good. I know a stickler for the rules like you, would never do that, but I sure as hell did. 

As far as unions go, I believe its still illegal to even use an 18" roller.

I had an old boss tell me some crazy union stories from back in the day. He was caought spraying eaves back when spraying was illegal, and they were gonna fine him a hundred grand or something ridiculous, and ended up with cops and Hells Angels getting involved, and almost got really ugly.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Its RIDICULOUSLY faster to spray and backroll, than to just roll. Especially with primer and two top coats on raw walls Just saving the brushwork alone is well worth it.


only in new construction.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> Its RIDICULOUSLY faster to spray and backroll, than to just roll. Especially with primer and two top coats on raw walls Just saving the brushwork alone is well worth it. Not to mention, you can very often skip a 2nd coat on walls. We would spray, backroll, then do a 2nd quick wet coat and call it good. I know a stickler for the rules like you, would never do that, but I sure as hell did.


You're describing two different dynamics in terms of best practices. 

Example #1. Craftsmanship:
Brushing and rolling is the best practice for painting because there is a skill set required to apply proper brushwork as well as rolling. The skill set is handed down to apprentices while Journeymen are eventually rewarded for their mastery of the skill set. And as mentioned in other posts, pressure application of a paint film ensures penetration in a way that spraying doesn't.

Example #2. Business:
In terms of reducing labor costs and maximizing profits, spraying can be considered a business best practice because it facilitates those goals, but doesn't necessarily lend itself to Craftsmanship. 

Perhaps a marriage of the two dynamics is attainable.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Pressure applied by a brush and roller is probably less than pressure applied by a gun.... So there goes that theory.

Best practice is brushing and rolling because there are skills required? That's a load of BS. it also takes practice and skill to spray properly. How could the best way of doing something be the "most difficult" or "most traditional"? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The best way of doing something should be based on getting the best results, not on some old fashioned thinking.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> You're describing two different dynamics in terms of best practices.
> 
> Example #1. Craftsmanship:
> Brushing and rolling is the best practice for painting because there is a skill set required to apply proper brushwork as well as rolling. The skill set is handed down to apprentices while Journeymen are eventually rewarded for their mastery of the skill set. And as mentioned in other posts, pressure application of a paint film ensures penetration in a way that spraying doesn't.
> ...


I dont understand what point you're trying to make. Whether its new construction, like doing 9 units in an old folks home in a day, or a high end mansion, where you do the upstairs in a day, its the same concept. There is ZERO difference in quality if a wall is rolled out of a bucket or sprayed and backrolled, but there is a huge difference in the time it takes to get it done. If anything, I would say the sprayed and backrolled wall would be better quality overall, as there would be no chance of holidays or hatbanding. 

BTW, Im NOT referring to different colored walls and ceilings. Im only referring to single color situations, especially with eggshell, as I would backroll eggshell mainly for sheen evenness.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> I dont understand what point you're trying to make. Whether its new construction, like doing 9 units in an old folks home in a day, or a high end mansion, where you do the upstairs in a day, its the same concept. There is ZERO difference in quality if a wall is rolled out of a bucket or sprayed and backrolled, but there is a huge difference in the time it takes to get it done. If anything, I would say the sprayed and backrolled wall would be better quality overall, as there would be no chance of holidays or hatbanding.
> 
> BTW, Im NOT referring to different colored walls and ceilings. Im only referring to single color situations, especially with eggshell, as I would backroll eggshell mainly for sheen evenness.


Without the aide of tape, masking paper, spray shields, plastic, drops, and electricity, the strictly brush and rolled paint job would provide a far better outcome than that of the airless given the same parameters and regardless of speed. That is why brushing and rolling fundamentals are established before spraying fundamentals. 

So my point is that brushing and rolling is the trade's best practice for Craftsmanship, but the airless does facility speed and subsequently lowers the labor costs, making it a business and production best practice.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Still not seeing how its a "better outcome..."


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

Masterwork said:


> Pressure applied by a brush and roller is probably less than pressure applied by a gun.... So there goes that theory.
> 
> Best practice is brushing and rolling because there are skills required? That's a load of BS. it also takes practice and skill to spray properly. How could the best way of doing something be the "most difficult" or "most traditional"? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The best way of doing something should be based on getting the best results, not on some old fashioned thinking.


I disagree about pressure from the sprayer. Because the amount of product being pushed through the tip is small, it quickly loses force. Pressure is measured at the tip. By the time it hits the substrate, it is hitting it with far less force than when it is exiting the tip. Unlike a power a power washer which is pushing 2.5 to 4 gals a minute, most airless sprayers used in residential painting are in the range of .5 to 1.3 gals per a minute. It doesn't have the volume to maintain pressure and force. If it did, you would be able to power wash houses with your sprayer too.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Masterwork said:


> Pressure applied by a brush and roller is probably less than pressure applied by a gun.... So there goes that theory.
> 
> Best practice is brushing and rolling because there are skills required? That's a load of BS. it also takes practice and skill to spray properly. How could the best way of doing something be the "most difficult" or "most traditional"? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The best way of doing something should be based on getting the best results, not on some old fashioned thinking.


So, Granny Gwenwald needs her modest sized kitchen walls and ceiling repainted. Cabinets are stained Oak. Masterwork is hired to paint it. After all the general prep, he masks everything in preparation for airless spray. LOL.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The point is, brushing and rolling is a tried and true fundamental of the painting industry. The airless is a tool advancement for production purposes, but it is not always applicable.

Example; A typical welding course begins with oxy/acetylene. And although MIG, TIG, and Stick are far more productive, O/A is a fundamental that remains. And the reason is, there are times when you have to apply a craft in its most basic form in order to avoid the complications that technology and advancements can bring. It's not "Old Fashion". It's common sense.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

CApainter said:


> So, Granny Gwenwald needs her modest sized kitchen walls and ceiling repainted. Cabinets are stained Oak. Masterwork is hired to paint it. After all the general prep, he masks everything in preparation for airless spray. LOL.


And there you are, 30 feet up in a factory, brushing the metal deck by hand. Pure craftsmanship at its finest.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Masterwork said:


> And there you are, 30 feet up in a factory, brushing the metal deck by hand. Pure craftsmanship at its finest.


That wouldn't be common sense. 

Believe me, I've sprayed plenty in the industrial coatings trade. I totally have respect for a skilled sprayman. And there are some things that require spraying specifically. But without respect for the brush and roller, you're missing the core of what makes a painter a painter. In my humble opinion.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Noones arguing that brush and roller isnt the fundamentals of the industry, but youre making it sound like a job that is done by hand is 'better' than a job that was sprayed which simply is untrue.

And, I think it goes without saying that we're talking about a big enough job that warrants spraying, and not just Grandmas kitchen... Does that really need to be specified?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

There is a time and a place for every type of application. Many variables involved in every scenario that need careful planning. If were talking about drywall though, I believe if your spraying, backrolling is best practice mostly because it will give some texture to hide imperfections and provides a more consistant sheen and over all even application. Have you ever looked down a sun wall that hasn't been backrolled? You can see all the tape lines and sprayer patterns. I Tried not backrolling on this Church renovation one time. It looked horrible. Had to re-roll eveything.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> There is a time and a place for every type of application. Many variables involved in every scenario that need careful planning. If were talking about drywall though, I believe if your spraying, backrolling is best practice mostly because it will give some texture to hide imperfections and provides a more consistant sheen and over all even application. Have you ever looked down a sun wall that hasn't been backrolled? You can see all the tape lines and sprayer patterns. I Tried not backrolling on this Church renovation one time. It looked horrible. Had to re-roll eveything.



It's perfectly fine to spray and not backroll the primer. But you must roll the finish. The only time I've had issues is when the taper sands the paper to the point where the whole wall is fuzzy. Then you want to backroll the primer.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Masterwork said:


> It's perfectly fine to spray and not backroll the primer. But you must roll the finish. The only time I've had issues is when the taper sands the paper to the point where the whole wall is fuzzy. Then you want to backroll the primer.


Doesn't back-rolling primer help ensure adhesion and uniformity?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Holland said:


> Doesn't back-rolling primer help ensure adhesion and uniformity?


Adhesion, no. Uniformity, yes, if you're not 100% when it comes to spraying. If you notice that you're having a hard time keeping it looking even while it's wet, go backroll it.

Spraying concrete block walls, always backroll, to fill the pinhole. Spraying won't fill those. Spraying metal duct work, poured/smooth concrete, etc... No backrolling.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Doesn't back-rolling primer help ensure adhesion and uniformity?


Like I've said in the past, you can get away without it, but I sleep better at night knowing I did.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I agree. An ever so slight stippled finish helps with touch ups. However, I still don't see how introducing the stress of spraying can be beneficial when you end up using a roller anyway. You can dip a roller in a five and slap a load of paint pretty quickly and still have time to roll it out evenly.
> 
> I just like the methodical and peaceful process of rolling verses the noisy airless, overspray, cramped trigger fingers, dragging hoses, clogged tips, and the clean up. Not to mention the herniated disk from lifting that heavy motor all over the place. At the end of the day, I think spraying is an application designed to hit it and walk away without any further disturbance.


Like anything in painting, you have to look at the situation and make an educated decision on how to go. A one size fits all rarely applies. Case in point, did a rental recently with no floor covering in place and popcorn ceilings. No brainer to spray. On the second coat I back rolled (textured walls) and trust me, as someone who usually rolls, spraying and back rolling is way faster than rolling only. No contest.
But, spraying is typically not my choice for interior due to the large amount of prep involved - the exception being what I described above (which was almost like doing new construction).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Like anything in painting, you have to look at the situation and make an educated decision on how to go. A once size fits all rarely applies. Case in point, did a rental recently with no floor covering in place and popcorn ceilings. No brainer to spray. On the second coat I back rolled (textured walls) and trust me, as someone who usually rolls, spraying and back rolling is way faster than rolling only. No contest.
> But, spraying is typically not my choice for interior due to the large amount of prep involved - the exception being what I described above (which was almost like doing new construction).


Why not just use a power roller? Then, you don't have to do all the masking. At the end of the day, just roll it. Otherwise. you're just competing for the lowest bid based on speed. _Mike drop_


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

News flash! Brush and rolled walls have held up as a painting standard in the twenty first century, despite its over four hundred years inception, and despite the machine spray power options from Tesla and Chevron.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Why not just use a power roller? Then, you don't have to do all the masking. At the end of the day, just roll it. Otherwise. you're just competing for the lowest bid based on speed. _Mike drop_


On New Construction, I only spray my primer and millwork. Everything else is brush and rolled. Unless there is no crown moulding I'll spray and backroll my ceilings also. Or spray the crowns in with ceiling colour..Saves alot of cutting in. It's kind of silly to spray the topcoats on walls if everything else is already painted. That would be a ridiculous amount of masking.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Why not just use a power roller? Then, you don't have to do all the masking. At the end of the day, just roll it. Otherwise. you're just competing for the lowest bid based on speed. _Mike drop_


Guess in your rush to instruct me as to how I _should_ have done it, you missed the part about the popcorn ceilings. You can pick up the mic.


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

My take (for what it's worth):

To do anything -RIGHT- takes skill. Lots of people Brush, Roll & Spray with no skill. What has been reiterated in the thread multiple times, is you have to factor in a lot of variable to find the correct application for the job. 

In a lot of new commercial work, we will spray the Primer and 1st Finish coat, allow many of the other finishes to be installed, and return and Brush and roll the final coat. This serves two main purposes: 

Less Trade Damage - By returning after many of the other finishes have been installed we mitigate a lot of extra work with Trade Damage. When presented to the GC correctly they can usually see that it will save them money in the long run because while our base price is higher, it saves them money because there is a lower Allowance calculated in and they don't spend a lot of time dealing with back charges or extra work for trade damage.
Maintenance - A Rolled wall is much easier to touchup by the regular maintenance crew. 
We paint LDS Temples in many countries and we have developed a reputation with the Owner because our mantra has always been: This building has to be maintained. If we only spray the finish, then you will need to bring back a crew from the US for even the smallest touchup. But if we roll the finish, then your engineer can usually make a manageable repair until somebody can return or other work is scheduled. Temple finishes are a WHOLE different level than most other buildings I have ever worked in. The line that helped me sell the Church on not dictating the means and methods (Spray Only) was: They didn't spray the Sistine Chapel, and nobody complains about the quality... 🤷‍♂️


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

RH said:


> *Like anything in painting, you have to look at the situation and make an educated decision on how to go. A one size fits all rarely applies. *
> 
> _[deleted stuff]_


That pretty much sums it up...


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

kentdalimp said:


> The line that helped me sell the Church on not dictating the means and methods (Spray Only) was: They didn't spray the Sistine Chapel, and nobody complains about the quality... 🤷‍♂️


LOL! Don't hurt your arm from patting yourself on the back, there, Michelangelo.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Guess in your rush to instruct me as to how I _should_ have done it, you missed the part about the popcorn ceilings. You can pick up the mic.


lol! I was in a rush. Recovered the mic. And, split my pants when I bent over. I hope you're happy now.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> Why not just use a power roller? Then, you don't have to do all the masking. At the end of the day, just roll it. Otherwise. you're just competing for the lowest bid based on speed. _Mike drop_


What about the doors and trim? Not only is it faster to spray them, but it looks a hell of a lot better too. What about all the brush work? That takes time. Thats why a power roller makes little sense to me. And yes, speed=money. It doesnt matter how much you bid the job for, if you can get it done in a fraction of the time with no drop in quality, its kinda stupid not to.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

kentdalimp said:


> My take (for what it's worth):
> 
> They didn't spray the Sistine Chapel, and nobody complains about the quality... 🤷‍♂️


Well, if you and the client dont mind spending literally ten years painting a ceiling, and you can charge accordingly... More power to you.

I sometimes do the 'wait until the end for the final coat, too.' Depends on how my schedule is though. If I HAVE another job to go to until that time, great.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> What about the doors and trim? Not only is it faster to spray them, but it looks a hell of a lot better too. What about all the brush work? That takes time. Thats why a power roller makes little sense to me. And yes, speed=money. It doesnt matter how much you bid the job for, if you can get it done in a fraction of the time with no drop in quality, its kinda stupid not to.


OK. It's stupid not to spray. lol.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Yeah, I'm always a bit baffled as to why “speed” is often used like a dirty word.

Certainly, in its basest form, speed can equate to the blow and go business model; outfits that get the bid based on the lowest price, not because they can be competitive utilizing well honed practices, but because they don't give a fart. They can't build a business on repeat customers or referrals, and they really don't care. They generally _are_ in a race to the bottom and most often are no longer to found in a few years time.

No, I am not talking about speed in the way that equates to sloppiness, poor workmanship, or cutting corners. I am talking about speed in terms of efficiency and experience. Experience in any aspect of our trade helps one to be come more efficient. Planning and sequencing is a huge part of that. We know that we typically need to be thinking several steps ahead - so we are now doing "A" so that we can do steps B, C, and D in due course. And that results in efficiency and that results in speed.

Speed is also achieved by knowing (and having the ability) to utilize the best process and tools that will allow one to complete a job satisfactorily in the shortest amount of time. As I referenced to earlier, the recent job of a rental I was asked to do for some neighbors (who are also good friends) in order to get it ready for selling was a good example. Pop corn ceilings, no floor coverings to worry about, windows that were sheetrock in on three sides with only a sill to paint differently, doors pulled (including hinges), cabinets in the kitchen and bath that could be easily isolated for painting later, all pointed to spraying as the most efficient, and fastest, way to go. And having the option (and confidence) to choose the best way to proceed - not just a once trick pony - makes you a more rounded, and successful professional.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The obsession with pulling out an airless at every chance possible, particularly on residential repaints, has everything to do with the illusion of speed. It's a hyper reaction to minimizing the impact of constrained time frames, economy budgets, ladder usage, over scheduling, caffeine, impatience, and a competitive and saturated field. At the end of the day, the pace of spraying is frenetic and often requires more prep and clean up than one would like to believe. 

With that said, of course there are times when spraying is more practical. But more often than not, it's used as a complete replacement for brushing and rolling in the same way the nail gun has replaced the hammer. And there enlies the working man's plight. Run at everything you do for fear of not keeping up. Try sustaining that pace for the long term. lol.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

And really, the point still remains. Why would you spray when you end up back rolling anyways? And this is coming from someone whose sprayed more metal surfaces than you'd like to believe, yet never back rolled any of them unless there were runs, or curtains.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

There's more...

I'm guessing that besides creating an even more toxic environment than painting already is, by choosing to spray, most of you don't even use full face respirators with tear away lenses. How many of you still rub Vasoline on your face in order to make it easier to wipe off the Rocky Racoon makeup? At least you're wearing a spray sock. lol!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

CApainter said:


> And really, the point still remains. Why would you spray when you end up back rolling anyways? And this is coming from someone whose sprayed more metal surfaces than you'd like to believe, yet never back rolled any of them unless there were runs, or curtains.


In my prime, I could roll out every drywall surface in a 3500 sq ft home solo in < 8 hrs w/2 workers cutting, and 1 helper masking after cutting. Although I might be mistaken due to having-zero- experience w/airless sprayers, I think you’d be hard pressed to match or beat those numbers using an airless and back rolling, taking into account all the additional masking & protection when spraying. 

I’ve personally have never seen or heard of painters using airless sprayers locally for drywall in residential houses except for tracts until joining this forum. Maybe it’s a regional thing?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> And really, the point still remains. Why would you spray when you end up back rolling anyways? And this is coming from someone whose sprayed more metal surfaces than you'd like to believe, yet never back rolled any of them unless there were runs, or curtains.


I've enjoyed your banter back and forth, and hesitant to jump in ( to the fire). I agree with many points on both sides. 

It takes a lot more _*effort*_ to roll a new ceiling, than to simply backroll after spraying- not to mention that you are constantly re-loading the roller between passes, and the new drywall is sooo absorbent. I prefer spraying for ease on new construction only, especially the primer coat if possible. But sometimes the prep is more of a hassle than I care to deal with. 

I just rolled a 1000 sq ft garage because I didn't want to prep some critical areas (garage door and opener, windows, doors, furnace), and I knew it would take about the same amount of time to prep and spray as it would to roll- and it was safer to just roll.

However, I remember thinking that the primer coat was sooo tiring, because it just sucked up the paint, and I was constantly re-loading the roller. The top coats were great, and enjoyable even, but I was seriously second guessing the rolling on the primer coat!

I generally only spray new construction walls - and trim whenever it is loose (not installed yet). 
I think I will continue to backroll spraying, just to make touch-ups easier, and catch any accidental sags in the corners.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> There's more...
> 
> I'm guessing that besides creating an even more toxic environment than painting already is, by choosing to spray, most of you don't even use full face respirators with tear away lenses. How many of you still rub Vasoline on your face in order to make it easier to wipe off the Rocky Racoon makeup? At least you're wearing a spray sock. lol!


spraying = not healthy environment. 
+1 on that comment!


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Redux said:


> In my prime, I could roll out every drywall surface in a 3500 sq ft home solo in < 8 hrs w/2 workers cutting, and 1 helper masking after cutting. Although I might be mistaken due to having-zero- experience w/airless sprayers, I think you’d be hard pressed to match or beat those numbers using an airless and back rolling, taking into account all the additional masking & protection when spraying.
> 
> I’ve personally have never seen or heard of painters using airless sprayers locally for drywall in residential houses except for tracts until joining this forum. Maybe it’s a regional thing?


You need to try it. You'd be shocked at how fast you can go, especially if you think you're making good time, now.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

CApainter said:


> And really, the point still remains. Why would you spray when you end up back rolling anyways? And this is coming from someone whose sprayed more metal surfaces than you'd like to believe, yet never back rolled any of them unless there were runs, or curtains.


Because its WAY faster. How many more times does this need to be explained? Spraying and backrolling is AT LEAST four times quicker than brushing and rolling, especially with trim. So, if you bid a job for 20,000 in labor cost, you would profit up to $15000 MORE by spraying and backrolling than doing it by hand, with NO degredation of quality. AND, you'd be getting to your next job all the more quicker too, so thats even more money. Once again, this is assuming its a single color, Getting into masking walls and ceilings to do spray two different colors is a whole other topic, and I personally dont do that. Different colored walls get done by hand in my work world.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Redux said:


> In my prime, I could roll out every drywall surface in a 3500 sq ft home solo in < 8 hrs w/2 workers cutting, and 1 helper masking after cutting. Although I might be mistaken due to having-zero- experience w/airless sprayers, I think you’d be hard pressed to match or beat those numbers using an airless and back rolling, taking into account all the additional masking & protection when spraying.
> 
> I’ve personally have never seen or heard of painters using airless sprayers locally for drywall in residential houses except for tracts until joining this forum. Maybe it’s a regional thing?


How many coats?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Woodco said:


> How many coats?


One coat on walls and two on ceilings with the trim being finished beforehand (ceilings and walls were different colors). Below is a link to the actual 3500 sq ft house years after originally painting it. We got into the second coat on the ceilings but didn’t quite complete all of them. Had one mechanic rolling (me), 2 cutting, and a helper dusting as well as masking/protecting horizontal surfaces. 


511 Sagaponack Rd in Sagaponack | Out East


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Because its WAY faster. How many more times does this need to be explained? Spraying and backrolling is AT LEAST four times quicker than brushing and rolling, especially with trim. So, if you bid a job for 20,000 in labor cost, you would profit up to $15000 MORE by spraying and backrolling than doing it by hand, with NO degredation of quality. AND, you'd be getting to your next job all the more quicker too, so thats even more money. Once again, this is assuming its a single color, Getting into masking walls and ceilings to do spray two different colors is a whole other topic, and I personally dont do that. Different colored walls get done by hand in my work world.


I don’t often get presented with a situation where it’s just plain smarter to spray than roll but when I do, I don’t hesitate to do it. If one takes the position of _always_ automatically resorting to brush and roll rather than considering spraying, it’s just as limiting and foolish as someone who always chooses spraying - even when it doesn’t make sense to do it. And spraying and then back rolling is way faster. IMO, anyone who argues differently just hasn’t done much (if any) of it. 
Oh, and nail guns are great in many situations too - like for attaching baseboard trim. No worries about splitting or denting the wood, bending the nail or trying to counter sink it, or accidentally scraping the floor with the hammer while nailing close to and parallel to it. Ever try to hold a piece of stubborn trim in just the right position and then nail it in place with a hammer? What a PITA. And even if it wasn’t faster (which it is), it’s just plain easier and more efficient.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

The bottom line is, you shouldn't be a one trick pony when it comes to finding more than one way to skin a cat. Get your act together, don't have second thoughts, give it a shot and hopefully it will be a piece of cake. Then, before you know it, it will be in the bag (with flying colors) and without costing your customer an arm and a leg.

I was feeling idiomatic today.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

My rule is, if ceilings and trim are getting a color change with the walls, and the house is empty, Im spraying. If its a repaint, with just ceilings and walls, I'll probably just cut and roll, but if its empty and huge, there are situations I might spray the ceilings and cut and roll the walls. 

But if its a single color house, without floors to worry about, raw texture and trim, its just plain silly to cut and roll primer, then two topcoats on everything, rather than spray and backroll.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

CApainter said:


> And really, the point still remains. Why would you spray when you end up back rolling anyways? And this is coming from someone whose sprayed more metal surfaces than you'd like to believe, yet never back rolled any of them unless there were runs, or curtains.


Well your suppose to backroll on drywall. IMO. Also applying the paint by sprayer would eliminate the need for brushwork in the corners, atleast on the primer coat. I personally don't see the benefit of spraying walls if your ceiling and trims are a different colour. If it's all going the same colour and the trim is installed last (which is weird) then spray away. Metal doesnt need or suppose to be backrolled.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Well your suppose to backroll on drywall. IMO. Also applying the paint by sprayer would eliminate the need for brushwork in the corners, atleast on the primer coat. I personally don't see the benefit of spraying walls if your ceiling and trims are a different colour. If it's all going the same colour and the trim is installed last (which is weird) then spray away. Metal doesnt need or suppose to be backrolled.


Here's an example: Ceilings white but walls....pink? Spray the pink, first, right up and just barely onto the ceiling. Hit the wall 100%. Then, pick a closet, switch from your pink to white in the pump, by the time you've sprayed the closet, you now have the white for the ceilings. Spray the ceilings, just hitting the top of the wall less than the width of a paintbrush. When you cut in the wall for your final coat (all by hand of course), you've saved a bunch of time, even if you end up having to cut in one spare time alone the ceiling.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

When I look deep into a customers eyes and carefully explain how I will not be using an obnoxious spray apparatus to paint their beautiful home, an immediate calm smooths over their burdened face and I'm once again golden. - Douglas Boyle, 1982 Kenpo Karate state champion and owner of Boyle's Painting and Faux Finishes. "Brush and roll is my style. What's yours?"


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## Natosha Jacobs (Jan 9, 2021)

Airless spraying is the fastest and most versatile way to achieve professional painting results and spray the widest variety of materials, unthinned. In fact, using an airless sprayer is up to 10 times faster than using a brush, and at least four times as fast as a roller. Airless spraying achieves this speed by atomizing, or breaking up fluid into small droplets, without the use of compressed air. Instead, fluid is pumped under high pressure through a spray tip. The fluid emerges from the tip as a high-speed solid stream – but when that stream hits the air, it becomes disrupted – and the fluid separates into very small droplets that form the spray pattern. If you’ve ever placed your finger over the end of a running garden hose, you created a very simple form of airless spray.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Natosha Jacobs said:


> Airless spraying is the fastest and most versatile way to achieve professional painting results and spray the widest variety of materials, unthinned. In fact, using an airless sprayer is up to 10 times faster than using a brush, and at least four times as fast as a roller. Airless spraying achieves this speed by atomizing, or breaking up fluid into small droplets, without the use of compressed air. Instead, fluid is pumped under high pressure through a spray tip. The fluid emerges from the tip as a high-speed solid stream – but when that stream hits the air, it becomes disrupted – and the fluid separates into very small droplets that form the spray pattern. If you’ve ever placed your finger over the end of a running garden hose, you created a very simple form of airless spray.


Where did you copy and paste that from?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Here's an example: Ceilings white but walls....pink? Spray the pink, first, right up and just barely onto the ceiling. Hit the wall 100%. Then, pick a closet, switch from your pink to white in the pump, by the time you've sprayed the closet, you now have the white for the ceilings. Spray the ceilings, just hitting the top of the wall less than the width of a paintbrush. When you cut in the wall for your final coat (all by hand of course), you've saved a bunch of time, even if you end up having to cut in one spare time alone the ceiling.


 Yes, I guess that would work if there were no crown mouldings or door casings on yet.. However, I spray all my trim and crown, and there is no way your getting away with one cut of pink paint over white. Or visa versa. So many different situations. Although I also spray my closets out with the trim paint. Ceiling paint is not appropriate for a closet IMO. Maybe in tract homes or something.. But, I'm also speaking from doing mostly custom renovations.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Maybe this would help.? @Wildbill7145 


__
http://instagr.am/p/CJ7Hv1JrIr5/


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I think you missed my point.... You never spray the finish coat. Spray the primer, and maybe the first coat of finish, with backrolling. Final coat is always done by hand.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Maybe this would help.? @Wildbill7145
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CJ7Hv1JrIr5/


Huh?


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## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Yes, I guess that would work if there were no crown mouldings or door casings on yet.. However, I spray all my trim and crown, and there is no way your getting away with one cut of pink paint over white. Or visa versa. So many different situations. Although I also spray my closets out with the trim paint. Ceiling paint is not appropriate for a closet IMO. Maybe in tract homes or something.. But, I'm also speaking from doing mostly custom renovations.


Now I always use ceiling paint in closets. Walls, trim, and shelf. The paint is less expensive and it covers well. If I did with trim paint then it would have the trim sheen(Satin or semi gloss). Closets shouldn't be shiny. What is your reasoning for trim paint in the closets vs ceiling or is it just professional preference? Just wondering.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cardgunner said:


> Now I always use ceiling paint in closets. Walls, trim, and shelf. The paint is less expensive and it covers well. If I did with trim paint then it would have the trim sheen(Satin or semi gloss). Closets shouldn't be shiny. What is your reasoning for trim paint in the closets vs ceiling or is it just professional preference? Just wondering.


 For 1, you can spray them out with your trim. 2, it's way more durable for a closet. Shoe scuffs etc. Ceiling paint isn't designed for walls. I know everyone does it because its cheaper but it wouldn't fly in the custom homes I work in. Also just my preference I guess.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Huh?


For cutting in the ceilings Bill!  Just poking a little fun.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> I think you missed my point.... You never spray the finish coat. Spray the primer, and maybe the first coat of finish, with backrolling. Final coat is always done by hand.


 Yes, but if you over spray your ceiling and trim paint onto the walls, won't you have to cut in twice anyhow? But then I guess theoretically you'd only have to roll 1 more time, so I kinda get ya.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

cardgunner said:


> Now I always use ceiling paint in closets. Walls, trim, and shelf. The paint is less expensive and it covers well. If I did with trim paint then it would have the trim sheen(Satin or semi gloss). Closets shouldn't be shiny. What is your reasoning for trim paint in the closets vs ceiling or is it just professional preference? Just wondering.


I usually do the insides of closets just like the rest of the job. Ceiling paint on ceiling, wall paint on walls, trim paint on trim and shelving. But if the wall paint is on the dark side I do ask if the client wouldn't rather just have white to keep it brighter (which often turns out to be the case). In that case I'm prone to paint the closet walls in with the ceiling paint. But I'll always put the trim paint on the trim and shelving because that's usually a white semi and it will handle the abuse better and clean better than a flat ceiling paint.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Can't ever recall using actual trim paint on anything in a closet other than shelving. Never have (or would) consider doing the ceilings of a closet in ceiling paint and the walls differently. Just too small a place to try and do two types of product and not something anyone would ever notice - probably even if you pointed it out. I will just use whatever I have the most of still around.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Yes, but if you over spray your ceiling and trim paint onto the walls, won't you have to cut in twice anyhow? But then I guess theoretically you'd only have to roll 1 more time, so I kinda get ya.


I never spray trim. Everything is finished by hand, so touch-ups can be done in the future.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Certain small pantry-like closets with shelves all the way up get sprayed with trim 100%. Small closets get sprayed with ceiling paint. Sometimes, I'd just spray it out with the trim while Im doing shelves, if I feel it'd take too long to cut the walls back flat. Walk in closets might get treated like the rest of the room.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Masterwork said:


> I never spray trim. Everything is finished by hand, so touch-ups can be done in the future.


Thats just crazy....


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Those of you advocating for "spraying"... *are you spraying in "finished" homes?*

I'm all for spraying new construction (or when the trim can be completed off-site or in a separate space) but I almost NEVER spray in a finished, occupied home - too much liability with overspray drifting every which way, and too much effort to prep.. 

Not much time or effort saved for the average room, imo.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

No, only ever new construction.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Woodco said:


> Thats just crazy....


Last time I sprayed doors, upon the insistence of the customer, they called me back a few months later to repaint them by hand. They had dinged the doors and tried doing touch-ups, but they stood out like crazy. They wanted something easier to maintain rather than respraying every time.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Thats a one in a million story though.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Pretty common for me.... Maybe it's a commercial/industrial thing. They want easy facility maintenance?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> Last time I sprayed doors, upon the insistence of the customer, they called me back a few months later to repaint them by hand. They had dinged the doors and tried doing touch-ups, but they stood out like crazy. They wanted something easier to maintain rather than respraying every time.


Of course doing touch-ups on trim and doors is a bit of an art form - requiring some smaller artist brushes and patience rather than the two inch chip brush many HOs will reach for.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Masterwork said:


> Pretty common for me.... Maybe it's a commercial/industrial thing. They want easy facility maintenance?


Well, yeah, commercial work's a whole other ballgame. Big flat doors that can be rolled with 9", no base or shelves, and metal trim. I do that by hand too.


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