# cabinet doors



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I am spraying some old kitchen doors with BM Advance and due to the fact it levels so fine, it is not filling the gap between the panel and frame like I would get if I was bushing. Should I caulk, cut an even line around the panel so it looks even, live with it because it will eventually separate due to humidity, or spray 10 coats?


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey Jeff, sounds like you already know this, but if those are real oak as they look, the stiles and rails are built like a frame around the panel. The panels are designed to float in the stile and rail. This accommodates the expansion and contraction of the panel. 

I've seen these moves as much as 1/8 of an inch. They were expanded when stained and contracted after instal leaving a unstained ring around the panel. (this was from the factory) 

Its hard to say for sure if they will crack again. Is the house forced air with A/C?...if so, probably a better regulation of humidity than if not. The ones above the stove if not fitted with a vent will get the brunt of expansion and contraction of course.

Caulk may do the trick....may not. Honestly, after saying all that, if it were me, I'd try caulk over filling it with layers of paint.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yep, caulk. Something really flexible. BM urethane lifetime, Tower Tech2, Big Stretch or similar would do.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yep, caulk. Something really flexible. BM urethane lifetime, Tower Tech2, Big Stretch or similar would do.



Boy...I gotta learn to talk less.....:jester:


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I know they will move and yes forced air heat, really concerned with it 3 mos down the road!. I am not sure what the normal presentation on completion should be. The majority I have done are either one piece or Aura that I brushed and or rolled and was able to fill the gaps with paint. After using Advance for the past 6 months, I would never ever use Aura on cabinetry! 

The pics are the 1st coat I sprayed with a 411FF. I really, really, really like the finish on advance.


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## SW-Man (Nov 3, 2011)

I would use SW Sher-Max Caulk. it's a Urethanized Premium Elastomeric Sealant, has great adhesion and very flexible.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I would run a putty knife down the groove and try to leave it all open. If it moves once caulked it will look awful.

NCPaint, we are just getting tower adhesives here, good stuff?

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Paint Talk


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Good luck on the painting of those doors . I have a lot of requests to turn stained/varnished cabinets into a paint finish but I usually decline mostly because of what you are into there right now...more to go wrong than right and sometimes the customer lets the warning you give them about the shrinking/expansion go in one ear and out the other until it happens and they are growling and complaining about it . One thing is for sure...a lot of people are now painting them to get them a few more years out of the existing cabinets that they have already versus the expense of buying new doors or cabinets .Good luck !!!:thumbsup:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

playedout6 said:


> Good luck on the painting of those doors . I have a lot of requests to turn stained/varnished cabinets into a paint finish but I usually decline mostly because of what you are into there right now...more to go wrong than right and sometimes the customer lets the warning you give them about the shrinking/expansion go in one ear and out the other until it happens and they are growling and complaining about it . One thing is for sure...a lot of people are now painting them to get them a few more years out of the existing cabinets that they have already versus the expense of buying new doors or cabinets .Good luck !!!:thumbsup:


Weak. What's the difference between old stained and new paint grade? Door companies kick out the same product in paint and stain grade... Calk it right and move on. Staple them if you have to. Gaps look like crap. Stained grade only stay open. If paint was what was bridging the gap for you before, the chance of movement and failure us 10 thousand times more likely in that scenario than with a quality calk that has good bond and flex. Just my 2 cents...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

ROOMINADAY said:


> I know they will move and yes forced air heat, really concerned with it 3 mos down the road!. I am not sure what the normal presentation on completion should be. The majority I have done are either one piece or Aura that I brushed and or rolled and was able to fill the gaps with paint. After using Advance for the past 6 months, I would never ever use Aura on cabinetry!
> 
> The pics are the 1st coat I sprayed with a 411FF. *I really, really, really like the finish on advance*.


Me too. :thumbsup:

Was using it again today. Jeff have you used any bold bright crazy colors, or flat yet? Looking for small opinions from different contractors to feature in an article I have been writing for a while now. Want it to be as in depth with as many sheens, bases, colors, and application methods as possible. 

Did my first walls in it today, but it will be next week before I can get some flat to try, I am having some pretty high hopes for it.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

@Dean, yeah the Tower stuff is pretty good. The Tower Tech2 is the urethane elasto, real nice stuff. The Accelerator is the fast dry stuff, can spray over it immediately or brush in 30 minutes.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The first time movement pushes caulk out of the joint you may change your opinion if caulking the joint.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Paint Talk


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jeff mentioned in the op that these are "old" doors. If that is the case, I wouldnt be as concerned about movement as I would be with new wood. There comes a point, after just a few seasons, where wood is acclimated to the home and stays pretty stable. I think if radical movement were a huge concern, Jeff would have seen indications of it during his prep. He would have seen it in the panel edges. Either stripes of color variation, or evidence of busted up finish. 

I would show the homeowner, explain both sides of the "to caulk or not to caulk" argument, and probably advise to caulk them, betting that the wood is pretty well acclimated to the house. Jeff, I kind of skimmed the thread as a whole, but what did you use for a primer/bond coat?


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

I always caulk, filling with paint just leads to cracks. I have sold many cabinet jobs just because my sample doors are caulked and look factory, not cracked out where the crack was filled with paint, unfilled cracks on painted wood looks like the entertainment centers they sell at Walmart IMO


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I used Insul-x Prime Lock as my prime/bond coat. Once cured you can't scratch it at all. It does not sand very well either. BM tried to tint it with Gennex....did not work very well.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yep, caulk. Something really flexible. BM urethane lifetime, Tower Tech2, Big Stretch or similar would do.


absolutely caulk. Like he said...BM Lifetime best caulk ever--no argument.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Jeff mentioned in the op that these are "old" doors. If that is the case, I wouldnt be as concerned about movement as I would be with new wood.



I agree......but they have been removed and put in a shop by the looks of it. If that shop has high humidity (which I'll assume) and put back into low humidity (hence my question about forced air humidifier) you likely are going to see 'some' contraction. 

If they are going to shrink....you'll see it soon, not reoccurring.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I run a dehumidifier at 50%.


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> I agree......but they have been removed and put in a shop by the looks of it. If that shop has high humidity (which I'll assume) and put back into low humidity (hence my question about forced air humidifier) you likely are going to see 'some' contraction.
> 
> If they are going to shrink....you'll see it soon, not reoccurring.


over thinking it. the doors are stable and sealed. Caulk them. filling a gap with paint it the worst idea. Paint dries to a film with limited flexibility.Hence home depot cabinets paint cracking all the time. A gap should always be caulked. Its the yahoos that use 99 cent tubes of caulk or dont have a properly prepped substrate that have caulk failure or cracking. I have jobs that are 10 years plus i caulked with BM lifetime that are still the same. (interior only)


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

ROOMINADAY said:


> I run a dehumidifier at 50%.



I should have asked (hence putting "assume" in brackets).....


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

DHlll said:


> over thinking it. the doors are stable and sealed. Caulk them. filling a gap with paint it the worst idea. Paint dries to a film with limited flexibility.Hence home depot cabinets paint cracking all the time. A gap should always be caulked. Its the yahoos that use 99 cent tubes of caulk or dont have a properly prepped substrate that have caulk failure or cracking. I have jobs that are 10 years plus i caulked with BM lifetime that are still the same. (interior only)



Maybe...and quite possibly.....my suggestion comes from experience of building and helping build....and refinishing numerous pieces in school wood shops. (I'm a trained woods teacher) That school in particular had a 'paint area' which had higher humidity. Numerous times the piece went home only to crack....we figured it was due to humidity levels. (....and a bunch more theories including 16-18 years olds working with wood and finishes :jester


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Maybe...and quite possibly.....my suggestion comes from experience of building and helping build....and refinishing numerous pieces in school wood shops. (I'm a trained woods teacher) That school in particular had a 'paint area' which had higher humidity. Numerous times the piece went home only to crack....we figured it was due to humidity levels. (....and a bunch more theories including 16-18 years olds working with wood and finishes :jester


Not attack your credentials, just stating that the doors are 100% stable. Its stained and urethaned then painted over. there is no moisture to pass through the urathane. its a done deal. no movement.....caulk the joints and be done....then you have a beautiful looking door!!


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

ps.....nice looking doors ROOM!!


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

DHlll said:


> Not attack your credentials, just stating that the doors are 100% stable. Its stained and urethaned then painted over. there is no moisture to pass through the urathane. its a done deal. no movement.....caulk the joints and be done....then you have a beautiful looking door!!



Not at all....just opinions...I don't ever feel to invests in mine. 

I agree that there is little to be truly concerned of. As per my original post....caulk rather than fill with paint.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm getting ready to prime and paint these, I don't plan of caulking. I'm going to talk to the homeowner and see what she wants.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Don't caulk or fill those panels. They expand/shrink with temperature and humidity, and the constant movement of the wood will cause the finish to crack and lift. 

Clean out the edges with a blade or putty knife. If you have to, fold up some 220, jam it in there and sand away the gunk. Blow them off with compressed air after you sand to keep the dust from getting into the cracks.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Some of the gaps look crappy and most of it is closed nice.

When you spray a kitchen do you cut around the whole panel?

I sprayed a second coat today and it is looking better in the rails.


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

Here are some pictures primed. I Think they look fine.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Looks great - the panels are tight. The Doors I am working with have gaps that are close to a credit card thickness and tight in other area's. You can see in the pic's I took. I will bring my good camera to the shop tomorrow and take a close up. The pics I posted are from my droid phone. 

There is a 4 hour time difference here from BC so I hope RCON can chime in as his kitchen makeovers should be published in fine home magazines.:notworthy:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Here is something I have done a few times this year. It is kind of diy but with a professional flair it is another option.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

a couple different angles.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Nice work...Work! Here is what I started with!


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

ROOMINADAY said:


> Some of the gaps look crappy and most of it is closed nice.
> 
> When you spray a kitchen do you cut around the whole panel?
> 
> I sprayed a second coat today and it is looking better in the rails.


Oak is a pain in the butt. Especially when it's going white. 

Caulking the gaps is risky - it might only be a matter of a few months before the finish cracks. You mentioned though that you were using advance - i'm not familiar with the product, but if it's at all flexible (not brittle) then you might get away with it, but it's not something i'd do personally.

A while back I made a thread about filling gaps in a front door - how i'd warned the home owner that the movement of the wood would cause the filler to crack and the finish to lift, and how only a year later the filler had indeed cracked and the finish had started to chip off just as i'd warned. Wood moves constantly and those panels need to be able to do their thing. However since it is only a small amount of movement, using a flexible finish and top-of-the-line caulk might work. Not something you'd want to warranty though. 

I've ran into a few kitchens where the gaps between the panel and stiles/rails were kinda funky looking - and I brought my concerns to a cabinetmaker friend of the family who told me never to fill those panels and showed me several samples of his solid finishes which all had gaps around 1/64. Then again most painted finishes are done over MDF or maple, not oak. 

The best solution for that in most cases is just jamming sandpaper in there and trying to clean it out as best as possible. But when you're dealing with a kitchen that is umpteen years old and was either poorly constructed to begin with or not well taken care of, there's really not much you can do other than to make it look as best it can.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Advance is an Alkyd resin so there is no elasticity. I spoke to my buddy who makes kitchens and installs prefab custom cabinets. On a painted kitchen built in the factory they prime the panels close to the finish colour before final assembly and paint. This is done to reduce a visible band when/if the panel shrinks from the frame.....


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Jeff I think a really good stretchy caulk will work on those panels. Its doubtful they will be moving more than 1/8. 

Advance is a pretty flex able finish. You could also hit those with a brush before you apply your finish coat.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I used less than a 1/8 of a tube and tooled it in with the point of my 5-1. It was just enough to fill in the gaps in the corners.

We sprayed 4 thin coats of Advance on the fronts of the doors. I will get my good camera and post them installed.

I have had them in the shop at 40% humidity and forced air furnace.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Looking good.


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

Nice looking job! Can't wait to see finished pics:thumbup:


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## DHlll (Dec 22, 2010)

they look awesome. you gotta feel good about showing your customer after transforming those from oak to........Paint Glass baby!!!!!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Looks nice Jeff. :thumbup:


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Looks great Jeff.

I'm super envious of your work space. 

Pad will be poured for my garage/shop next spring!


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks. We will install tomorrow. It is the paint. I think anyone can make this product look good! I was at the BM store yesterday I saw an order for a painter who gave up on Advance....said he didn't care for it and went with Aura on risers and skirting over Advance!


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Looks great Jeff.
> 
> I'm super envious of your work space.
> 
> Pad will be poured for my garage/shop next spring!


I rent it heated and I do work for the owner in lieu of rent which is dirt cheap to begin with. It is right in town as well. 20' x 30'


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

On doors of this sort cabinet makers go to great lengths to make sure to allow for movement, little rubber balls in the frame part to not gluing, to not nailing the style to the frame etc. Thing is that they never intended for a solid color to be applied. Having said all that it does not look good if it is not caulked.


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## MDServices (Oct 29, 2011)

Looks good. Love the advance have used it three times the past two months. Customers can't believe when the see the " new" cabinets. Advance is great stuff


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

MDServices said:


> Looks good. Love the advance have used it three times the past two months. Customers can't believe when the see the " new" cabinets. Advance is great stuff


Advance is good stuff but it'll still yellow over time...Did you spray them flat,one side per day?


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

JoseyWales said:


> Advance is good stuff but it'll still yellow over time...Did you spray them flat,one side per day?


I sprayed them flat, one side a day. These are lambskin colour so it won't be apparent if it yellows.

On the topic of yellowing...we just repainted 10 year old BM Oil trim cloud white with Advance cloud white and yellowing was not that apparent on the old trim.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ROOMINADAY said:


> I sprayed them flat, one side a day. These are lambskin colour so it won't be apparent if it yellows.
> 
> On the topic of yellowing...we just repainted 10 year old BM Oil trim cloud white with Advance cloud white and yellowing was not that apparent on the old trim.


In a well lit place it won't yellow so bad, inside of a cabinet or dark area it most definitely will.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I would run a putty knife down the groove and try to leave it all open. If it moves once caulked it will look awful.
> 
> NCPaint, we are just getting tower adhesives here, good stuff?
> 
> Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Paint Talk



I have been impressed so far with the tower caulks Dean, we got them over the summer and tried them out right away.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> Advance is good stuff but it'll still yellow over time...Did you spray them flat,one side per day?


I have been using advance since it came out and yet to see it yellow.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

MAK-Deco said:


> I have been impressed so far with the tower caulks Dean, we got them over the summer and tried them out right away.


I love tower but every 5th one has been a reject tube. I'd think it was a bad lot but it was like that consistently over 9 months. The tubes would split. Back to nr5.


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## ColorScapes Painting (Nov 5, 2009)

*Cabinet Caulk and Waterborne Lacquers*

The key to filling those gaps is to first make sure the panel is set into the frame properly - try an F clamp on both sides then rubber mallet tap the
top very gently - could be some shrinkage/contracting due to normal
wood movement with moisture.

I usually caulk a thin line - call it a microfilled line of Dap 230 elastomeric
white caulking inside a gap like that before I prime and spray with
waterborne lacquer. We use Becker Acroma Akvatopp Lacquer it's an
amazing product for high end kitchen millwork and cabinets and makes
Ben Moore and SW latex acrylics look sad by comparison of finish and 
mar resistance. Sherwin Williams bought Becker back in Fall 2010 for
this reason alone - technology and outstanding product line for cabinetry.

I have repped 15+ yrs for all big paint companies, SW and ICI and also operate a high end painting business so I know what I am talking about - DO NOT use LATEX paint on kitchen cabinetry exposed to heat and humidity, you will be the callback king. The Becker Acroma products rate at +5 by KCMA
for mar resistance, pencil hardness, stain resistance and have a beautiful
spray consistency and nice odor - nothing touches the product in Canada or the U.S. 

ColorScapes Painting


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

*Upodate*

We installed the doors today. 4 coats on the fronts, and a micro brad of caulk in the cracks. They really look factory, I am pleased and the client is blown away, she was not expecting the finish to look so good.

I will come back in a few weeks once the counter top is installed - we may be installing a tile back splash after Christmas.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

ROOMINADAY said:


> We installed the doors today. 4 coats on the fronts, and a micro brad of caulk in the cracks. They really look factory, I am pleased and the client is blown away, she was not expecting the finish to look so good.
> 
> I will come back in a few weeks once the counter top is installed - we may be installing a tile back splash after Christmas.


I am blown away on how fine your Airless finish is.

Have you ever considered AAA?


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

robladd said:


> I am blown away on how fine your Airless finish is.
> 
> Have you ever considered AAA?



Thanks - the pictures don't do them justice. This is the 1st time I sprayed a kitchen. I used a 411FF at about 75% pressure on my 440i with undiluted Advance. The paint really levels out nice. I was looking at the 395AAA at SW on Saturday...:whistling2:


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## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

Do you guys install rubber bumpers/felt pads on doors and drawers? Makes for a quiet closing. Also keeps them from potentially sticking.


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