# Deck Question



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I am going to be looking at a deck that I will be staining in a couple of weeks. It currently has a solid stain on the decking. I have told them that a solid should is really not the best for decking. So, the plan is to hopefully put a semi-transparent or semi-solid cali storm on it after the old stain is removed. So, here is my question, and I am asking this because I have not done a lot of decks. It seams to me that the only type of stain that can be used on decking, that will not require a total strip everytime that it is stained is a solid stain. If I use a semi-transparent or semi-solid, and I return in a year to put a fresh coat on without a total strip, the areas that are worn will be much lighter than the areas where the the stain still remains sound, which will appear more like a solid stain. So, it seems to me that a solid is not the best option to last the longest, but the only option ic they do not want a total strip every time the decking is stained.


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Normally a solid stain would require a total strip before applying a semi. You can do it but its a lot of work to strip and get a quality looking finish. You realize that the best your gonna get is 3-4 years anyway why go through he trouble. Go with a solid and just do a maintenance coat next season with a solid. I think most people here try and avoid decks knowing its a lot of work, little money and its going to fail.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Pete, I agree with Boco. You can only put on another coat of solid or you have to totally strip it first to bare wood. That is a way advanced project that you have to bill $$$$ (as in 200 s.f deck = $2500) Even at that you would be stuck on it for trip after trip constantly stripping and sanding until you give up and have to humble yourself before the homeowner and tell them you have to apply another solid. Everyone that does decks has a nightmare story of taking on a solid strip. Not worth it. Clean it with bleach, sand/feather, blow it off and apply another solid.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> Pete, I agree with Boco. You can only put on another coat of solid or you have to totally strip it first to bare wood. That is a way advanced project that you have to bill $$$$ (as in 200 s.f deck = $2500) Even at that you would be stuck on it for trip after trip constantly stripping and sanding until you give up and have to humble yourself before the homeowner and tell them you have to apply another solid. Everyone that does decks has a nightmare story of taking on a solid strip. Not worth it. Clean it with bleach, sand/feather, blow it off and apply another solid.


Ken, If they do decide that they want the solid removed and will pay for it, and I put on a semi-transparent can I do maintaince on the semi without a total strip? Will a fresh coat of semi have areas that are lighter than others due to the wear on the deck? Or will the new coat of semi have an even appearance?


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Pete the Painter said:


> Ken, If they do decide that they want the solid removed and will pay for it, and I put on a semi-transparent can I do maintaince on the semi without a total strip? Will a fresh coat of semi have areas that are lighter than others due to the wear on the deck? Or will the new coat of semi have an even appearance?


Pete, it's the nature of wood to have some inconsistency to it and has been my experience that you can recoat it without needing to strip.

I would really try to talk them out of stripping the solid though.


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## KamRad (Nov 30, 2015)

Talk yourself out of doing decks. I stopped decks years ago and wouldn't consider it today.


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## Crackshot (Dec 29, 2015)

Pete the Painter said:


> I am going to be looking at a deck that I will be staining in a couple of weeks. It currently has a solid stain on the decking. I have told them that a solid should is really not the best for decking. So, the plan is to hopefully put a semi-transparent or semi-solid cali storm on it after the old stain is removed. So, here is my question, and I am asking this because I have not done a lot of decks. It seams to me that the only type of stain that can be used on decking, that will not require a total strip everytime that it is stained is a solid stain. If I use a semi-transparent or semi-solid, and I return in a year to put a fresh coat on without a total strip, the areas that are worn will be much lighter than the areas where the the stain still remains sound, which will appear more like a solid stain. So, it seems to me that a solid is not the best option to last the longest, but the only option ic they do not want a total strip every time the decking is stained.


i have done enough decks to know that when this happens. you have to add more and more and more to blend in to an even coating. currently doing one and up to coat 5 just to get rid of the inconsistencies. 
furthermore when washing it the H/O confuse wash with strip and wonder why parts came off and parts didnt. when they think i should have remove it all. yet only pay for wash? anyhow. 

the best plan for decks is to use a product that "TRULY" penetrates into the timber. any film any coating that doesn't equals a massive headache and is more trouble than its worth. another solution would be to have a builder flip over all the boards. anyway. from this point on. if a deck has an existing coating. walk away.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I am going to be looking at a deck that I will be staining in a couple of weeks. It currently has a solid stain on the decking. I have told them that a solid should is really not the best for decking. So, the plan is to hopefully put a semi-transparent or semi-solid cali storm on it after the old stain is removed. So, here is my question, and I am asking this because I have not done a lot of decks. It seams to me that the only type of stain that can be used on decking, that will not require a total strip everytime that it is stained is a solid stain. If I use a semi-transparent or semi-solid, and I return in a year to put a fresh coat on without a total strip, the areas that are worn will be much lighter than the areas where the the stain still remains sound, which will appear more like a solid stain. So, it seems to me that a solid is not the best option to last the longest, but the only option ic they do not want a total strip every time the decking is stained.


Pete, sorry to say this, but it seems more than a few times you've put yourself in a corner by recommending a total strip. Stripping is not easy and customers are not willing to pay for it. If the deck is solid stain, keep it that way, otherwise by convincing the customers to strip it, and going back few days later telling them not to strip will give them less confidence. 
I am saying this because you said you have not done this before, so you don't exactly know how long it will take you to strip it, how you are going to figure out the cost? keep it simple, don't forget you work solo.
Good luck Dan.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

One of my worst painting nightmares is stripping a deck because a customer wanted a semi transparent. I warned them ahead of time vehemently that it was going to take a lot of time and a boat load of money.

It was a horrible experience Pete. Once you get into this, you're gonna feel trapped. Don't do it. Being solo means you're gonna be calling other customers and telling them you're pushing back their jobs because of this one.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PremierPaintingMa said:


> Pete, sorry to say this, but it seems more than a few times you've put yourself in a corner by recommending a total strip. Stripping is not easy and customers are not willing to pay for it. If the deck is solid stain, keep it that way, otherwise by convincing the customers to strip it, and going back few days later telling them not to strip will give them less confidence.
> I am saying this because you said you have not done this before, so you don't exactly know how long it will take you to strip it, how you are going to figure out the cost? keep it simple, don't forget you work solo.
> Good luck Dan.


Dan, although I can understand why you believe so, I have not recommended a total strip on either job. This does not mean that it not out of the question. I have talked to the HO with the failing paint on clapboards and we have kind of come to the consensus that total replacement of the clapboards might be best. He is a contractor and can do it, and then I can give him a price to paint. When I first spoke with the HO of the deck, she mentioned a total strip, and I just wanted to get an idea of what is the best approach before I see her this week.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Best approach? That's easy! Propane and a lighter.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

If a deck was previously stained with a true oil or if it's never touched I go with TWP. Anything other than that I suggest using a solid stain If they don't like it they can find someone else to lose money on their deck. :yes:

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm so glad to see threads like these. For many years, I just thought I did a lousy job coating decks. Now I realize the nature of the beast and I avoid decks like the plague, with thanks to all of you. Pete, I wish you the best.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

It's pretty funny. Most of the painters around here also avoid decks like the plague. HOs have resorted to doing them themselves, which makes me wonder how that situation is gonna turn out.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I do em, tell them what to expect and why and it's not a problem....coat it in whatever you want. Tell em up front that in 3 years you can touch it up or just put a fresh coat on the treads (depending on what you're using). It's not going to be perfect but it will protect the lumber (from the top anyway) and will need a full strip again in about 6 -7 years when the pickets begin to fail. It's just a maintenance item that never wears well regardless of what coating system you use. Some may last a little longer than others but at the end of the day, strip and stain only takes ya so far on most decks. The solution is trex, ironwood, some other hardwoods, penofin or whatever else isn't fir, cedar or some other common decking material. Ya can't take some HO's maintenance schedule personally. And you can use whatever they want you to use more effort=more $$. Imnsho anyway.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> It's pretty funny. Most of the painters around here also avoid decks like the plague. HOs have resorted to doing them themselves, which makes me wonder how that situation is gonna turn out.


Hence the reason "Deck Over" products have come about. Its the nature of what contractors refuse to do and leave to the inexperienced homeowners to maintain themselves. I don't do decks with the exception of a few Penofin IPE decks, and just recommend an actually company who does only decks in my area. When I worked for SW, we recommended a maintenance coating every season or you would see failure from a S/T, solid you would get at least two before a maintenance coat. It's a specialty within the painting spectrum. Just because it is made of wood does not mean a painter automatically has to bid and try to make a HO happy by attempting them. Walk away Pete, too much work out there for your paint ability and knowledge.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Hence the reason "Deck Over" products have come about. Its the nature of what contractors refuse to do and leave to the inexperienced homeowners to maintain themselves. I don't do decks with the exception of a few Penofin IPE decks, and just recommend an actually company who does only decks in my area. When I worked for SW, we recommended a maintenance coating every season or you would see failure from a S/T, solid you would get at least two before a maintenance coat. It's a specialty within the painting spectrum. Just because it is made of wood does not mean a painter automatically has to bid and try to make a HO happy by attempting them. Walk away Pete, too much work out there for your paint ability and knowledge.


Walking away is a bit difficult. This is a good customer that I have already done several jobs for and beside the deck, I have to paint an addition this year and the entire exterior, minus the addition next year.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

They'll be looking at your other work and not judging you by the facts of deck ownership then.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Walking away is a bit difficult. This is a good customer that I have already done several jobs for and beside the deck, I have to paint an addition this year and the entire exterior, minus the addition next year.


I had the same situation last year Pete. Really elderly woman (late 80's) who I've done a lot of painting for over the years. Full exterior of her house, garage and a few rooms in the house. She wanted me to stain her deck and an old fence. Both had rotten wood everywhere. So much so that applying any product was impossible. The entire structure of both needed to be replaced.

When I told her this, she tried hard to convince me to just go ahead and stain them. I eventually just had to be quite firm explaining that I didn't want to take her money when there was zero chance of a positive outcome. She eventually accepted that and said she didn't expect to be around long enough to replace a deck or fence that she never even uses.


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## pacific paint (Nov 21, 2015)

lilpaintchic said:


> Best approach? That's easy! Propane and a lighter.


That just made my day 
That was funny
The only good deck is made out of cement :thumbsup:


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> Walking away is a bit difficult. This is a good customer that I have already done several jobs for and beside the deck, I have to paint an addition this year and the entire exterior, minus the addition next year.


There you go then, have to take care of these clients. Did not know from your OP, sounded like a new job. Anyway, you are the expert not them, so make the best recommendation to them based off budget, expected longevity, and your ability.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

There's no way to go from a solid stain back to a semi-transparent without either sanding the heck out of it or best bet replacing the wood. In fact I wouldn't recommend sanding because even then you would still have stain in the grain if the wood so the semi won't penetrate. This is the reason I wish people would come to me before they stain their decks for the first time. No one seems to be able to give these people the truth about deck stains and the maintenance involved. That being said if durability is their main concern, strip it, prime with you know what-Storm oil primer, and one coat of the Storm solid deck stain.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> There's no way to go from a solid stain back to a semi-transparent without either sanding the heck out of it or best bet replacing the wood. In fact I wouldn't recommend sanding because even then you would still have stain in the grain if the wood so the semi won't penetrate. This is the reason I wish people would come to me before they stain their decks for the first time. No one seems to be able to give these people the truth about deck stains and the maintenance involved. That being said if durability is their main concern, strip it, prime with you know what-Storm oil primer, and one coat of the Storm solid deck stain.


Totally agree. They believe that the painter that they had do the deck last time was a bad painter. I do not know, nor am I willing to make a judement. However, if the deck was not treated and he did not inform them that a solid was not a good idea, or he did not let them know what to expect from the longevity of the solid then he did not do his job. 
BTW, if they do decide to strip, will a primer with solid really last that much longer than just solid stain that it would justify removing the old stain?


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## Crackshot (Dec 29, 2015)

sanding + nail heads = fun times


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Pete the Painter said:


> BTW, if they do decide to strip, will a primer with solid really last that much longer than just solid stain that it would justify removing the old stain?


In my experience, probably not.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Totally agree. They believe that the painter that they had do the deck last time was a bad painter. I do not know, nor am I willing to make a judement. However, if the deck was not treated and he did not inform them that a solid was not a good idea, or he did not let them know what to expect from the longevity of the solid then he did not do his job.
> BTW, if they do decide to strip, will a primer with solid really last that much longer than just solid stain that it would justify removing the old stain?


Nope.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> Totally agree. They believe that the painter that they had do the deck last time was a bad painter. I do not know, nor am I willing to make a judement. However, if the deck was not treated and he did not inform them that a solid was not a good idea, or he did not let them know what to expect from the longevity of the solid then he did not do his job.
> BTW, if they do decide to strip, will a primer with solid really last that much longer than just solid stain that it would justify removing the old stain?


Yes it will. Talk to your Cali rep. The Storm stain primers have a perm rating higher the the wood, which allows the moisture to evaporate normally. Putting one coat of solid deck stain makes the perm rating of the system still slightly higher the the wood itself, which still allows the moisture to evaporate well enough to not effect the bond with the wood. This is the key to getting a solid stain to not peel. Putting two coats of solid over the primer is not a good idea until the natural degradation of the film has started to break down that stain coat, usually 2-4 years. At that point it just needs to be cleaned and have one more coat of stain put on. If a deck is maintained like this it can literately last 30 years or more. I've seen it done.

My last deck lasted 37 years with a MUCH lesser quality stain on it. Proper prep right from the get go and ongoing maintenance are the key. Unfortunately with so many people out there just trying to sell a gallon of paint and nothing else, there isn't a wealth of proper information being given to the diy'ers and homeowners. Once a deck is stained improperly, it is pretty much ruined until it is replaced. It must be done right from the start because getting it back to what I call a virgin condition is next to impossible.

The marketing of stain has started to be driven by the instant gratification desire of the consumer, and in the case of decks the results are more often then not disastrous for the end consumer. But there is money to be made for painters that are willing to gather the knowledge and expertise to do decks. It's just a question of if it is worth it for the individual painter or not. More often then not it isn't because of the associated bull5hit that they have to deal with. Such as things like Deckover and Restore and the like. Having to fight the battle against those huge marketing dollars is sometimes a lost cause.

And Fyi, The Storm system as far as I know is the only stain that has this permeability engineered into the stain. I know of no others in the market, which is probably why they don't seem to work as advertised. When the voc laws started taking effect on a large scale, California was the only company to my knowledge that started from scratch with their new lo voc stains. New resins, new pigments, the whole shebang. Everyone else just modified their existing products to comply with the regulations.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

That's a big job and a big headache good luck


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

There are so many variables associated with the success of a deck system. The quality, type, age, installation and design are a large part the effect the performance and durability of any stain system. PT is the worst species for decks because of its pronounced grain orientation and accelerated growth. and its always cut on the flat grain which creates higher yields from a tree. Acclimating a deck to a moisture content of 8-12%, then priming all sides of the wood either in a transparent, semi trans, semi solid, solid creates dimensional stability, which is a measureable coefficient for a given species of wood in a specific geographic. Some may dispute back priming, but wood movement from temp and humidity variations, in addition to freeze thaw cycles is more destructive to stains and film forming deck stains and paints then anything. That's why creating dimensional stability and minimizing expansion and contraction, and movement vertical to flat grain versus movement horizontal to flat grain.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Horizontal to vertical grain. Think of #1 VG Cedar siding vs #3 Flat grain cedar siding. The #1 expands and contracts along the horizontal lines about 1/8 of an inch. The #3 expands vertically as much as 1"


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Lets not forget that any "substrate" failures are never covered by a paint warranty. So when the wood does that thing it does that NACE explained, who's gonna pay to fix it? It's a losing battle for the most part. There are just way to many variables at play for any coating to last for as long as most homeowners/end users expect it to last. Thank the marketing for that.

Interesting that no one on the forum has ever mentioned acid rain/snow and the effect it has on exterior coatings. Coatings on horizontal surfaces especially. According to California, even if everything else in a stain application is perfect, acid rain and or snow melt will deteriorate any exterior coating within 4-5 years in certain areas of the country. Regardless of how well everything is prepped or how sound the substrate is.
Even car finishes will show a noticeable degradation of the finish in 4-5 years, and a large but often overlooked cause of that is acid rain. UV exposure and hot/cold cycles just add to the problem.


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## Stonehampaintdept (Jan 10, 2013)

Expectation levels of deck coatings. I love this write up, it was part of Storm Stain's old website. I managed to find it here. Worth a read through.
Download spec for prep, prime, finish

http://www.stormstain.com/p_p_finish.html


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> Yes it will. Talk to your Cali rep. The Storm stain primers have a perm rating higher the the wood, which allows the moisture to evaporate normally. Putting one coat of solid deck stain makes the perm rating of the system still slightly higher the the wood itself, which still allows the moisture to evaporate well enough to not effect the bond with the wood.
> 
> And Fyi, The Storm system as far as I know is the only stain that has this permeability engineered into the stain. I know of no others in the market, which is probably why they don't seem to work as advertised. When the voc laws started taking effect on a large scale, California was the only company to my knowledge that started from scratch with their new lo voc stains. New resins, new pigments, the whole shebang. Everyone else just modified their existing products to comply with the regulations.


So does this perm rating translate to their dual-dispersion and the acrylic category 4? (not sure if they make an oil based cat4 or not). 

I just started using Storm about 18 months ago, but hadn't heard this info.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hines Painting said:


> So does this perm rating translate to their dual-dispersion and the acrylic category 4? (not sure if they make an oil based cat4 or not).
> 
> I just started using Storm about 18 months ago, but hadn't heard this info.


It applies to the cat 4 acrylic, at least the deck version (enduradeck) Not sure on the dual dispersion products. There is no oil based cat 4 as far as I know.
Strangely, there is no mention of this on their storm system website, but only on a product line info sheet that was given to me by my original sales rep. Why it isn't mentioned on their web site might be a liability issue or for some reason they don't really promote it at the retail level. I don't know. I may try to find out. It may be because of the current change in marketing by competitive stain brands towards advertising their products as waterproofing/sealing stains, which they always were. But recently they all started really pushing the waterproof/seal stain in one instant gratification thing with the stains. Telling the average consumer that a product is permeable kind of flies in the face of that current trend. Telling a typical consumer that water vapor is less dense then water, so the film will allow vapor to escape while not letting liquid water to penetrate is like trying to teach a dog about quantum physics.

You can point to the clouds all day long and some people still don't get it.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

PACman said:


> It applies to the cat 4 acrylic, at least the deck version (enduradeck) Not sure on the dual dispersion products. There is no oil based cat 4 as far as I know.
> Strangely, there is no mention of this on their storm system website, but only on a product line info sheet that was given to me by my original sales rep. Why it isn't mentioned on their web site might be a liability issue or for some reason they don't really promote it at the retail level. I don't know. I may try to find out. It may be because of the current change in marketing by competitive stain brands towards advertising their products as waterproofing/sealing stains, which they always were. But recently they all started really pushing the waterproof/seal stain in one instant gratification thing with the stains. Telling the average consumer that a product is permeable kind of flies in the face of that current trend. Telling a typical consumer that water vapor is less dense then water, so the film will allow vapor to escape while not letting liquid water to penetrate is like trying to teach a dog about quantum physics.
> 
> You can point to the clouds all day long and some people still don't get it.


 it may be also because there is no perm rating for decking surfaces or species by the US Forestry Service or an ASTM standard that you might find for wall cavities and drywall. Vapor Barrier primers with specific VOC and perm ratings are required here in CT for spray insulation. Perm rating for wood decks is a great idea, however when Mrs. Jones comes in because she's having a party Saturday and wants her deck painted Friday afternoon, explaining the features and benefits of a perm rating for the deck might be a quantum physics glare.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Pete the Painter said:


> Totally agree. They believe that the painter that they had do the deck last time was a bad painter. I do not know, nor am I willing to make a judement. However, if the deck was not treated and he did not inform them that a solid was not a good idea, or he did not let them know what to expect from the longevity of the solid then he did not do his job.
> BTW, if they do decide to strip, will a primer with solid really last that much longer than just solid stain that it would justify removing the old stain?


The past painter did do HIS job. He got paid and stained their deck. He may not have done the job of someone more informed, who cares more about his craft, or is concerned with top-performing products, but he most definitely did HIS job. 
I'm sure he never claimed to be the best.
But sometimes in an effort to over-perform and seem like the good guy who gives clients the most informed choices can cause just as much trouble. I steer homeowners towards the finish I think are not only best for them but also which will cause me least trouble in future as well as making me the most money. All 3 of those factors must converge or I have a hard time doing the job.
Stripping decks doesn't EVER fit 2 of those criteria. I'll let you guess which 2.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

PACman said:


> Yes it will. Talk to your Cali rep. The Storm stain primers have a perm rating higher the the wood, which allows the moisture to evaporate normally. Putting one coat of solid deck stain makes the perm rating of the system still slightly higher the the wood itself, which still allows the moisture to evaporate well enough to not effect the bond with the wood. This is the key to getting a solid stain to not peel. Putting two coats of solid over the primer is not a good idea until the natural degradation of the film has started to break down that stain coat, usually 2-4 years. At that point it just needs to be cleaned and have one more coat of stain put on. If a deck is maintained like this it can literately last 30 years or more. I've seen it done.
> 
> My last deck lasted 37 years with a MUCH lesser quality stain on it. Proper prep right from the get go and ongoing maintenance are the key. Unfortunately with so many people out there just trying to sell a gallon of paint and nothing else, there isn't a wealth of proper information being given to the diy'ers and homeowners. Once a deck is stained improperly, it is pretty much ruined until it is replaced. It must be done right from the start because getting it back to what I call a virgin condition is next to impossible.
> 
> ...



I just spoke with my California rep. According to him, using a primer really will not extend the life of the stain on the decking. He also told me that California guarantees its Enduradeck for five years, which he admitted was foolish.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I just spoke with my California rep. According to him, using a primer really will not extend the life of the stain on the decking. He also told me that California guarantees its Enduradeck for five years, which he admitted was foolish.


Ah he's just worried the prep won't get done correctly! Did he come over to Cali from SW by chance? I have a board primed with the primer and topcoated with the enduradeck sitting in a black plastic tub out back of my store. Been there since summer 2014. In the rain. The snow. The sun. Sits partially submerged when it rains and gets nice and hot when the sun comes out. Did the same thing with three other stain brands and every one of them peeled off after a couple of months. But it has't quite been two years yet. Maybe it will pop off like all the others one of these days and prove me wrong. Idk. Guess we'll see.:whistling2:


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> Ah he's just worried the prep won't get done correctly! Did he come over to Cali from SW by chance? I have a board primed with the primer and topcoated with the enduradeck sitting in a black plastic tub out back of my store. Been there since summer 2014. In the rain. The snow. The sun. Sits partially submerged when it rains and gets nice and hot when the sun comes out. Did the same thing with three other stain brands and every one of them peeled off after a couple of months. But it has't quite been two years yet. Maybe it will pop off like all the others one of these days and prove me wrong. Idk. Guess we'll see.:whistling2:


Do you have an identical board done without primer?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hines Painting said:


> Do you have an identical board done without primer?


One half with, one half without. The biggest difference I can see so far is when the board sets in the water for a couple of days, the side with just the deck stain can be peeled just a little bit. When it drys out it adheres fine again. The side with the primer doesn't do that. The deckover i did? I let it cure inside for 3 weeks. 1 week in the rain, sitting in that tub, and it was floating in the water. I know letting the wood sit submerged like that is pretty extreme, but it does pretty well replicate a winter of snow piling on and slowly melting.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> Just wanted this to notify you.


You ever seen the Dual Dispersion do this?[/ATTACH]


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> One half with, one half without. The biggest difference I can see so far is when the board sets in the water for a couple of days, the side with just the deck stain can be peeled just a little bit. When it drys out it adheres fine again. The side with the primer doesn't do that. The deckover i did? I let it cure inside for 3 weeks. 1 week in the rain, sitting in that tub, and it was floating in the water. I know letting the wood sit submerged like that is pretty extreme, but it does pretty well replicate a winter of snow piling on and slowly melting.


Not sure what happened to my other pictures. You ever seen the dual dispersion do this? It was applied last June.


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## Allsurface (Aug 17, 2014)

Back to OP problem. 
I would just put sikkens rubbol solid. 
I live in northern Ontario and I have had good success with decks. 
What I do for a solid restain is. 
Our paint store rents the onfloor 16 machine, it has bristles so screws and nails don't matter if they are up a bit. 
60 grit orbital for edges and areas machine he won't hit. If the deck is only a couple hundred sf, we will just orbital sand the whole floor. 
Blow or vacuum dust off. 
A moisture meter and a laser temperature gun are a must. I like 15% or less and like to stay below 25 degrees. 
Brush on one coat, I use a 4 or 6 inch stain brush and do about three boards wide from end to end. 
Allow to dry overnight and you can put another coat on. And then you're done. 
Now here's the biggest thing, maintenance. 
Another coat will be needed between one and three years. And the important thing is to make sure that it's done before any real failure. 
Normal maintenance would be just washing the deck and applying one more coat. If you wait till the product starts to fail and starts to show bare spots, then you need to sand the whole deck again. 
So it's in everybody's best interest to evaluate the deck midseason and decide whether or not it will last through another winter. 
I explain in great detail to customers, that they don't make stain like they used to 25 years ago. All of these new products do not last near as long, and that a maintenance plan is very important.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Absolutely great advice. The problem is getting people to understand and believe that, and stick to the plan. Not doing zero and calling back three years later whining that their deck doesn't look brand new.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Pete the Painter said:


> I just spoke with my California rep. According to him, using a primer really will not extend the life of the stain on the decking. He also told me that California guarantees its Enduradeck for five years, which he admitted was foolish.


A semi-solid would work well for what you are doing. Wears much better than a semi-trans and still shows the grain. I use the Armstrong Clark semi-solids

If you want to go with an acrylic solid you could use the Mad Dog deck Fix primer and you would truly be surprised how it holds up. 

http://maddogprimer.com/product/deck-fix-deep-penetrating-primer/


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Tonyg said:


> A semi-solid would work well for what you are doing. Wears much better than a semi-trans and still shows the grain. I use the Armstrong Clark semi-solids
> 
> If you want to go with an acrylic solid you could use the Mad Dog deck Fix primer and you would truly be surprised how it holds up.
> 
> http://maddogprimer.com/product/deck-fix-deep-penetrating-primer/


What's your experience been with MD deck fix?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hines Painting said:


> Not sure what happened to my other pictures. You ever seen the dual dispersion do this? It was applied last June.
> View attachment 76522
> 
> 
> View attachment 76530


did that wood have Thompson's on it at some point? Or something similar. Or it could be kumquat if it was new wood.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Tonyg said:


> A semi-solid would work well for what you are doing. Wears much better than a semi-trans and still shows the grain. I use the Armstrong Clark semi-solids
> 
> If you want to go with an acrylic solid you could use the Mad Dog deck Fix primer and you would truly be surprised how it holds up.
> 
> http://maddogprimer.com/product/deck-fix-deep-penetrating-primer/


Mad dog deck fix is a Cali Troubleshooter knock-off.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> did that wood have Thompson's on it at some point? Or something similar. Or it could be kumquat if it was new wood.


I haven't been involved with the deck from the beginning. 

It was built in September 13, Cabot's australian timber oil was put on in June of 14, and wouldn't dry (from what I've been told) so the previous painter tried stripping it with Gemini Safestrip. 

I was called shortly after that and I told him to let it weather all winter (because of the Cabots being so fresh still). The following spring it was sanded with a square floor sander (the homeowner did it because there was a tight window for a party he was having) and I applied the Cat2 in June. According to the homeowner he started to see failure after the rains started. 

My suspicions are that the cabots is still in the deck and causing problems, or that when he sanded it, the wood was burnished. He said he used 100 grit, which is softer than I prefer to use on wood, but I didn't think it would be an issue. But I've also never used one of those sanders myself and am wondering if the weight of the sander combined with 100 grit would be enough to burnish it.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Tonyg said:


> A semi-solid would work well for what you are doing. Wears much better than a semi-trans and still shows the grain. I use the Armstrong Clark semi-solids
> 
> If you want to go with an acrylic solid you could use the Mad Dog deck Fix primer and you would truly be surprised how it holds up.
> 
> http://maddogprimer.com/product/deck-fix-deep-penetrating-primer/


I woild have to take the solid off before I apply a semi solid.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

PRC said:


> What's your experience been with MD deck fix?


I've used it several times on problem decks/porches with previous failures and all came out nicely. One porch that the HO had to paint every year because it Would always peel and he didn't believe it would last the 3 years for my warranty - it's been 5+ so far.



PACman said:


> Mad dog deck fix is a Cali Troubleshooter knock-off.


We don't get Cali and the Mad Dog works for me knock off or not



Pete the Painter said:


> I woild have to take the solid off before I apply a semi solid.


Sorry, didn't see that it had a solid on there now


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I just PW a deck yesterday and noticed an issue right off. The deck slopes towards the house and the last three boards are so tight they hold water. My plan is to either run a skill saw and open the gaps a little or drill holes to let the water drain.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> I just PW a deck yesterday and noticed an issue right off. The deck slopes towards the house and the last three boards are so tight they hold water. My plan is to either run a skill saw and open the gaps a little or drill holes to let the water drain.


Did one last year with that issue. We pulled a couple of boards off, ripped 1/2" off and reinstalled.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> I just PW a deck yesterday and noticed an issue right off. The deck slopes towards the house and the last three boards are so tight they hold water. My plan is to either run a skill saw and open the gaps a little or drill holes to let the water drain.


I had a deck that was so bad the entire 16x20 deck held water and after cleaning there was almost 2in of water at the house. The deck was 15yrs old and had never been cleaned or sealed so the boards had swelled and the mildew scale filled the rest.

I ran a circular saw through 75% of the cracks in the deck. Worked great and didn't take that much time, though was an unexpected surprise.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I can't believe there are people out there building decks like that! Stupid! I guess that's what happens with the "you can do it! we can help!" mentality. Especially when the "we" in that comment doesn't have a clue!


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

PACman said:


> I can't believe there are people out there building decks like that! Stupid! I guess that's what happens with the "you can do it! we can help!" mentality. Especially when the "we" in that comment doesn't have a clue!


Even high end builders are placing boards do tight nothing can get between them


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Even high end builders are placing boards do tight nothing can get between them


Hey all you guys building decks out there! They make these things called "deck spacers". You should try them. And maybe try reading a book about deck construction or something! And the guys doing concrete patios and such. Try sloping the concrete a couple degrees down away from the house. That would be nice too.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I have to believe I'm the only person on earth who's pressure treated decking didn't shrink. The beach sand we have in our backyard has effectively become grout and even a pretty powerful pressure washer won't remove it.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

PT boards that have not been maintained can swell and warp over the years. It's not necessarily from construction.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Tonyg said:


> PT boards that have not been maintained can swell and warp over the years. It's not necessarily from construction.


That's part of the reason they is supposed to be gaps between them. So they have room to do that thing they do without pressing against other boards. That and to allow water someplace to go other then to just pool up on the stain.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

PACman said:


> That's part of the reason they is supposed to be gaps between them. So they have room to do that thing they do without pressing against other boards. That and to allow water someplace to go other then to just pool up on the stain.


The point is that even when the proper gaps are in place, after years without maintenance in many environments the boards can swell to fill the gap. It's about proper maintenance as much as construction.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

The guy who built my brothers deck just layed the boards out and if the gap looked good it was nailed in, every gap is different, he didn't use any thing except his eyes to gap with. This guy was a nimrod.


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