# HTML Nazi : "No code for you"



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OK Ok, as I am going to be adding a few dozen pages soon, I understand that nested tables (especially what I have now) is a no - no. I need to go to CSS.

SO, as not to learn a whole new coding, what software will allow me to make styles, containers, boxes, div, classes, etc without learning anything?

(ooops, I already peaked under the hood. I'm just that way. As a kid I used to take apart pocket watches and put them back together just to understand how they work. I like to know what makes stuff work. I won't build a car, but I'll know how to change a spark plug)

I've looked at Dreamweaver CS4 and it certainly don't look like WYSIWYG to me . Unless I haven't explored the HELP enough (I still do NOT like Adobe help)

I notice that Yaros and Pat rely on CSS for your sites. Did you learn it and write it? Or did you use software that did it for you?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OR, do I need to learn as much as possible about CSS coding ?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

You're already a hack. Don't be a DIY'er hack too.
Pay someone to write the code already.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bill

You should learn as much about code as you can. There's no other way to a good site.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Is it possible to write code, then not write code, get mad about writing code, learn some new code, get mad about repeating about not writing code and then write code again?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm lucky to have a friend who's a Navaho Indian help me with mine. :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

@ Tim, We've know each other for HOW many years? 10? 12? And as much as I knew you were going to SAY that, you know what my answer will be. 

@Scott. I am trying to learn. I do not want to write. I would like to know what software Pat and Yaros use. EDIT: Or anyone else who has built their site and use CSS

@ Chris, ah..... yes (BTW, I differentiate between knowing code and writing it - I used to know how to tune and engine - dist cap, points, condenser, timing, etc, but I never BUILT an engine)


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Just busting your chops. 

I cant even write the text content for my site.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Just busting your chops.
> 
> I cant even write the text content for my site.


I know. I only had to read it twice to make sure I was supposed to laugh. :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> Just busting your chops.
> 
> I cant even write the text content for my site.





daArch said:


> I know. I only had to read it twice to make sure I was supposed to laugh. :thumbup:


Which... his text or site? :whistling2:


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bill, I am exactly like you. If i don't fully understand the ins and outs of what I am using, I somehow feel "dirty". With that said, I have finally learned that WordPress templates are about as WYSIWIG as you can get and they look almost as good as what I can painstakingly design myself. Most of the templates I have seen are cookie cutter ugly. Kinda like a dryvit McMansion versus 125 year old custom built Victorian. But.. there are some good ones out there with nearly unlimited customization. On top of that you get a myriad of plugins to expand your site, incorporate blogs, have back-ends to log customer inquiries and auto send responses, etc. Might be something worth exploring for us anal types that feel no one can do anything as well as we can.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Bill, I'm in no way a web guy by any means. My site in my sig is the first site I ever built. I started off using Microsoft Expression 2.0 and upgraded it to 4.0. I think that is the latest version. I'm not sure what you mean by you do not want to write code. It has 3 different levels - Design, split and code. where spit shows the design window and a code window. It's not that difficult, it just takes a bit of time goofing around. If you have time then go for it as it will be beneficial down the road.

I have been using Dreamweaver cs5 for my estimating program site. I just like it better now. Plenty of templates out there so you can understand how things work.

All I can suggest is to dive into one and start fooling around. Things will start to click and next thing you know you will have a decent site.

All you really need to do is create one nice page. when that is done, just use the Save As button and create a new page, then just update the content from there. In my main site I have a master template that holds the header and footer stuff. when you update this it updates all your other pages so you do not have to go through each page and update.

Again if you have the time, try to learn it. fook paying someone else.

Pat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PressurePros said:


> Bill, I am exactly like you. If i don't fully understand the ins and outs of what I am using, I somehow feel "dirty". With that said, I have finally learned that WordPress templates are about as WYSIWIG as you can get and they look almost as good as what I can painstakingly design myself. Most of the templates I have seen are cookie cutter ugly. Kinda like a dryvit McMansion versus 125 year old custom built Victorian. But.. there are some good ones out there with nearly unlimited customization. On top of that you get a myriad of plugins to expand your site, incorporate blogs, have back-ends to log customer inquiries and auto send responses, etc. Might be something worth exploring for us anal types that feel no one can do anything as well as we can.


Feel like there's a potential sig line in there. :yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

thanks Ken & Pat.

I talked to The Queen, and she has talked me into at least TRYING Wordpress. As she suggested, I will practice on my unused domain (NO, I won't tell you the URL  )

Pat, As I told Queen Chris, on about Wed as I had been studying CSS, my head was ready to explode, or maybe I was ready to explode it, out of frustration. By Friday morning, light dawned on Marblehead. "AH HA. I kinda understand". 

My plan of attack will be to keep studying, use Wordpress to get going quickly, but hopefully have the time and the concentration to shift to CS4 (I do not have CS5 - also have Dreamweaver MX which looks a little simpler) .

Being genetically wired into engineering and art (how Fred and Priscilla ever stayed married til death did them part, I'll never know) I have to create AND understand how it's done. I have no choice. 

But what the heck, it'll keep me out of jail as good as real work would . . . . hopefully


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I have Dreamweaver cs4 but never really did anything with it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I have Dreamweaver cs4 but never really did anything with it.


Adobe is NOT loser friendly. 

I was forced to layout the NGPP Newsletter with PageMaker. I can not tell you how many hours were spent learning just basic sh!t that Microsoft Publisher could do in half the time. AND I'm no fan of Micro$not. 

Sad part is, whatever I had done in MS Publisher could be converted easily to PageMaker . . . . . . . 

no, I won't go further, this is not the politics section.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> Adobe is NOT loser friendly.
> 
> I was forced to layout the NGPP Newsletter with PageMaker. I can not tell you how many hours were spent learning just basic sh!t that Microsoft Publisher could do in half the time. AND I'm no fan of Micro$not.
> 
> ...


I was inspired to get it after I saw what Alec did with it when he was having his earlier site critiqued. I have a couple books for it and thought during cabin fever I could make something cool but then I fizzled out. It is a good program but a bit more advanced.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Well it looks like we will loose another one to Wordpress .

Bill forget about learning CSS. Just find a template you like. It will already have a css style sheet attached to it. Once you find the template then study the fook out of it. See how it works and stuff like that. This will speed up your process big time.

Here is a cool site with plenty of javascript stuff. http://www.htmldrive.net/ 
They have demos of everything and you can download them too.

Pat


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## mosby (Mar 23, 2012)

I have 10+ years experience writing CSS & HTML. You can pick up the basics easily enough, but you'll spend hours trying to get things to work. Unless you want to change careers, I tell people to either hire a web designer or use something like squarespace.com


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

To late, I already did my new site. 

Learned CSS, how to use (wet)Dreamweaver, and a bunch of other new things. It's like a hobby. the example I like is that many folks who like building stuff out of wood, will spend the time making a nice inlaid dinner table instead of buying off the shelf.


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## mosby (Mar 23, 2012)

Well more power to you. I'm self-taught as well.


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## parodi (Mar 15, 2010)

daArch said:


> OK Ok, as I am going to be adding a few dozen pages soon, I understand that nested tables (especially what I have now) is a no - no. I need to go to CSS.
> 
> SO, as not to learn a whole new coding, what software will allow me to make styles, containers, boxes, div, classes, etc without learning anything?
> 
> ...


Bill, You know how crazy paperhangers are? Web designers are kooks too and they love to get "passionate" about stuff that really isn't so important. They want purity, and then there is the world.

Nested table are, for complicated sites, cumbersome but not a no-no. People on design teams want to avoid them because when they go to figure out what 12 people did before them THEN the nested tables get confusing. Content and form are separated in CSS and that is nice, but tables still work and they will continue to work in the foreseeable future with HTML5.

The irony is that tables and nested tables look good and render well on mobile devices....or at least mine do, and they make me happy. With so many people surfing on phones and pads the important thing is that they render well in small format. Also, tables don’t break when the content is too wide. Columns are not squeezed under other columns as they are in a div-based structure so they are safer in that layout regard.

If you want to go out and learn something new why not something like jQuery? You can get dynamic content without Flash. With more and more people using Apple based devices like iPads and iPhones Flash can be a big problem for your site design when it drops out and leaves a gaping hole where content should be. I know Apple jailbreakers can get around the Flash problem but THAT is much more cumbersome than a nested table.


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