# 2 coats ceiling and trim for repaint.



## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

Hey everyone,

I know that this is a newbie question, but keep in mind, just like everyone else, just trying to learn and survive.

I'm curious to know how many of you actually do 2 coats on cielings and trim for a repaint when using same color and finish. Ive worked for two guys who had opposite ways. One everytime no matter what, the other only if needed and then only rolled the top and quick over the trim the second time. Which is better for business, even if it raises the price?

Also on this topic, I always prime trim when going from semi to satin then 2 coats to finish. Is this overkill?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

How long have you been painting?

Just curious because these questions are vague and not really specific. 

I could say yes or no to all the questions but would depend on the situation. Knowing when to say yes or no, in my opinion comes from having the experience under your belt that gives you the confidence to make the best decision under those specific conditions.

I've done ceilings both ways. It depended on what the job was, and expectations of the customer, and what was required given the substrate condition.

Trim, same deal. I've primed over semi if putting on satin. I've also just painted without priming. It depended on the criteria I've already mentioned above.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

One coat for each if they cover fine.

Priming for semi to satin is overkill if applying 2 topcoats.
I do scuff the initial finish though.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ProWallGuy said:


> One coat for each if they cover fine.
> 
> Priming for semi to satin is overkill if applying 2 topcoats.
> I do scuff the initial finish though.


Man, you said all I did but with like 1000 less words. :notworthy:


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

HQP2005 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I know that this is a newbie question, but keep in mind, just like everyone else, just trying to learn and survive.
> 
> ...


one coat for me too,just make sure your price reflects it...alot ot guys will charge for two and only put one coat
as far as trim goes your system it is over kill, unless you are going over oil,then its not over kill


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Ceilings for me have become a pain in the behind. I used to use SW's Classic 99 brilliant white & more often than not, it covered in one coat and lasted for years. Now they have Brilliance which is basically Classic 99 reformulated and I almost always have to apply 2 coats to ceilings. Coverage is very average & I end up with a streaky look unless I apply 2 coats.

I almost always prime SG trim with a bonding primer before applying 2 coats of satin. I guess I don't like potential callbacks so I prefer the "overkill" method to be on the safe side.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Man, you said all I did but with like 1000 less words. :notworthy:


I've been trying to train the designers I work with this too, less is more sometimes.



Gymschu said:


> Coverage is very average & I end up with a streaky look unless I apply 2 coats.


For simple ceiling repaints, I'd be switching product asap.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

granted I stopped painting just as the waterbornes were becoming actually half decent (late 80's), but ceilings were most often two coated with my favorite FLAT oil. Even when washed well, would get some flashing and slight variance in color with one coat.

as to other question - as PWG said, sand and two coats. We did quick sand between coats.


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## wills fresh coat (Nov 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> granted I stopped painting just as the waterbornes were becoming actually half decent (late 80's), but ceilings were most often two coated with my favorite FLAT oil. Even when washed well, would get some flashing and slight variance in color with one coat.
> 
> as to other question - as PWG said, sand and two coats. We did quick sand between coats.


damn arch you must of retired in your 20s........:notworthy:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

wills fresh coat said:


> damn arch you must of retired in your 20s........:notworthy:


A) I am NOT retired, just only focusing my skills and energies on one craft - wallcovering installation

B) Some would consider my 62 years to be old, but I can't afford to, yet.

:thumbup: :thumbup1:


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

if its latex over latex..you shouldnt really have to prime. Scuff up the semi, and appy the satin you'll be fine. ceilings usually i do one coat on a res repaint..all i really need to cover if its white flat over white flat. If your going latex over oil, your going to want a bonding primer then your latex topcoats. I can get away with one coat if its the same color/sheen on repaints most of the time. if you prime your going to want to do 2 coats to get the true sheen of the paint.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

do you guys wash the ceilings before so all the smoke, grease, dust, etc don't bleed through that one coat?

BTW, can I assume this is RESIDENTIAL repaint without the ability to spray ? Roller work?

I am sure for kitchens you allow for all cooking smog to be dealt with, but even here in a chilly climate with oil heat and especially hot air, ceilings are just plain dirty (now add a smoker or a wood stove). Do modern waterbornes seal and finish paint that in one even coat?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

daArch said:


> A) I am NOT retired, just only focusing my skills and energies on one craft - wallcovering installation
> 
> B) Some would consider my 62 years to be old, but I can't afford to, yet.
> 
> ...


One on ceilings if at all possible and always two on the walls.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

> Bill, 62 is old. Particularly to those who aren't within a few years of it. And I have a gut feeling you could retire whenever you wanted to.


62 ain't looking that old to you, is it  :whistling2:

Retire? Not yet. Close, but not close enough.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

rolling trim is never good for business


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

daArch said:


> do you guys wash the ceilings before so all the smoke, grease, dust, etc don't bleed through that one coat?
> 
> BTW, can I assume this is RESIDENTIAL repaint without the ability to spray ? Roller work?
> 
> I am sure for kitchens you allow for all cooking smog to be dealt with, but even here in a chilly climate with oil heat and especially hot air, ceilings are just plain dirty (now add a smoker or a wood stove). Do modern waterbornes seal and finish paint that in one even coat?


Bill, i personally havent dealt with any ceilings that ive had to wash yet..but you bring up a good topic. i wouldnt paint over smoke ash and grease with a waterborne finish paint one coat. i would try and clean first then prime. luckily i havent had to do more than sand and dust off for my res repaints yet..most of the homes i work in are taken care of pretty well by cleaning services/HO's. curious to see what others have to say about it


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

StripandCaulk said:


> Bill, i personally havent dealt with any ceilings that ive had to wash yet..but you bring up a good topic.


Bill, I'm not giving you a hard time here. But I've found that that concern is mostly brought up by the older generation. People who grew up with oil and coal burning furnaces. With those heating methods, houses were just plain dirtier. 

My substrates need to be clean, dull and dry before we paint. On interior surfaces it's more times than not already clean.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

HQP2005 said:


> ...I'm curious to know how many of you actually do 2 coats on cielings and trim for a repaint when using same color and finish. Ive worked for two guys who had opposite ways. One everytime no matter what, the other only if needed and then only rolled the top and quick over the trim the second time. Which is better for business, even if it raises the price?
> 
> Also on this topic, I always prime trim when going from semi to satin then 2 coats to finish. Is this overkill?


The only way to answer this question is if you asked it by using a certain product and posting a pic of the surface. Products are not equal. It goes much deeper than that... each paint company creates an environment by their circle of users. What these users need to do with SW product may not necessarily be what you need to do with BM or any other. Coverage and dry film can be double of another product. You may need to apply 2 coats to get what another provides in one. 

What is best for business is knowing what quality products can do to achieve nicer results in 1 coat vs 2 coats of another cheap product. What is best for business is not performing the labor to apply 2 coats to achieve what another product can do in one coat.


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## ltd (Nov 18, 2010)

walls and ceilings 2 coats almost always ,i price for 2 they get 2, every things all dropped anyways the second coat goes fast and always looks better .on trim wash scuff 2 coats some times prime depending on condition


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> One coat for each if they cover fine.
> 
> Priming for semi to satin is overkill if applying 2 topcoats.
> I do scuff the initial finish though.



Palabra.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

For the ceiling, I flat out the patches, then 1 coat. For same color trim, one coat.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I keep burning myself and quoting one coat on ceilings and trim and actually doing 2 because we are not happy with coverage.Lots of electric heat (seems to statically charge the wall and ceiling above it to collect lots of dirt) and wood heat in these parts so sometimes it is not always obvious when we walk through at time of quote. There are the obvious 2 coaters when we see them.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

I just got done with 500 sq ft of ceiling that I had to skim to smooth and applied primer followed by 2 topcoats of sw Brilliance and to me looks like it could use another.Im grateful that they let me demo this ceiling paint but labor wise I lose in the end.They told me it was a cut above classic 99.An ajoining room next to it will have to be done in Brilliance which will be money out of my pocket on labor and mats.It runs around 35 a gal. in my area.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

PM400 extra white usually and sometimes brilliance on ceilings. Always bid for two coats and apply two. Even newer homes with a clean sprayed ceiling always sucks in the paint. Extra white is bright as is the brilliance. They always look splotchy or blueish streaky with one coat. 

For trim latex over latex two coats of finish or one coat primer(which is cheaper than finish paint anyway)and then a finish coat. I usually don't sand if the paint is not peeling. Superpaint seems to adhere good to latex semi- gloss. I can't stand sanding. Most of the newer homes have ****ty paint jobs from the start anyway. Gun nails sticking out of the trim just painted over. I don't try to refinish the trim in someones ten year old house when they bought it that way brand new with a ****ty paint job to begin with. They are just changing the color. I have never had a callback because of paint not sticking with latex over latex. Now if it was glossy oil it would definitely get primed.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> PM400 extra white usually and sometimes brilliance on ceilings. Always bid for two coats and apply two. Even newer homes with a clean sprayed ceiling always sucks in the paint. Extra white is bright as is the brilliance. They always look splotchy or blueish streaky with one coat.
> 
> For trim latex over latex two coats of finish or one coat primer(which is cheaper than finish paint anyway)and then a finish coat. I usually don't sand if the paint is not peeling. Superpaint seems to adhere good to latex semi- gloss. I can't stand sanding. Most of the newer homes have ****ty paint jobs from the start anyway. Gun nails sticking out of the trim just painted over. I don't try to refinish the trim in someones ten year old house when they bought it that way brand new with a ****ty paint job to begin with. They are just changing the color. I have never had a callback because of paint not sticking with latex over latex. Now if it was glossy oil it would definitely get primed.


SO what your saying is you dont care about improving the paint job in a house if someone hires you. you dont sand? you leave nails sticking out because theyve already been painted over once?? i always try and improve the house i go into not just "change the color". this guys looking for some real advice, that is not it. i always sand, thats not refinishing the trim, its called basic prep work. nails? what painter see's a nail and doesnt set it then fill. i dont know how long i would be able to do high end paint work and survive with that attitude


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## Nephew Sherwin (Oct 7, 2011)

mudbone said:


> I just got done with 500 sq ft of ceiling that I had to skim to smooth and applied primer followed by 2 topcoats of sw Brilliance and to me looks like it could use another.Im grateful that they let me demo this ceiling paint but labor wise I lose in the end.They told me it was a cut above classic 99.An ajoining room next to it will have to be done in Brilliance which will be money out of my pocket on labor and mats.It runs around 35 a gal. in my area.


Mudbone just curious on what type of sleeve/nap you used.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

mudbone said:


> I just got done with 500 sq ft of ceiling that I had to skim to smooth and applied primer followed by 2 topcoats of sw Brilliance and to me looks like it could use another.Im grateful that they let me demo this ceiling paint but labor wise I lose in the end.They told me it was a cut above classic 99.An ajoining room next to it will have to be done in Brilliance which will be money out of my pocket on labor and mats.It runs around 35 a gal. in my area.


I did not like the Brilliance when it was demoed to me. It just did not go very far and I went through 2 gallons in a smaller room where BM Muresco or SW MasterHide would have been done with just 1.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

StripandCaulk said:


> SO what your saying is you dont care about improving the paint job in a house if someone hires you. you dont sand? you leave nails sticking out because theyve already been painted over once?? i always try and improve the house i go into not just "change the color". this guys looking for some real advice, that is not it. i always sand, thats not refinishing the trim, its called basic prep work. nails? what painter see's a nail and doesnt set it then fill. i dont know how long i would be able to do high end paint work and survive with that attitude


 I am not talking about setting a nail, although it should have been set the first time it was painted. People buy the biggest house they can for the cheapest money. They got what they paid for. I am talking about a nail that blows back out because it hit something. I have seen caulk joints almost a 1/2 inch thinck on door trim and some of the nastiest caulk jobs around. Imo sanding hard latex trim paint seems futile most of the time. I have had idoit homeowners painted themselves and got runs on the wall then want you to try and sand them out. Then what take a power sander and try to burn it down. Once you tear through the latex the liquid plastic coat just keeps peeling. Imo once paint job is ruined it is hard to get it looking better. It is not that I don't sand when I feel it is neccesary to make the paint job look good but it adds a lot of extra time to the job and in the crappy newer homes I repaint, it makes very little difference in the finish product. Kind of like sanding in between coats on the walls. Every extra move takes more time and costs more. I have to be competitive in my area.If the customer bought the house with crappy workmanship based on price then price is a variable when they hire for a repaint. They always seem to complain about the builder though like they got ripped off. If it is a high end house with a nice finish and craftstmanship I would price accordingly. I sell people the job they want to pay for. I feel latex paint bonds well to previously latex painted surfaces without sanding. Don't get me wrong, If I see something that looks like total ****, I take care of it, but imo these new construction homes are all ****. I tell them right out, "It's a paint job. I can't build you a new house with a paint brush".


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Daniel,

Have you ever tried "shaving" those HO applied drips, runs, and sags off with a razor blade? (or SHARP 6" mud knife).

Before papering, I need a smooth surface (actually smoother than for most paints). I blade the walls smooth - quicker than sanding and no dust to hinder adhesion. That 6" knife is razor sharp and often I use it to remove previous gobs of paint.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

daArch said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Have you ever tried "shaving" those HO applied drips, runs, and sags off with a razor blade? (or SHARP 6" mud knife).
> 
> Before papering, I need a smooth surface (actually smoother than for most paints). I blade the walls smooth - quicker than sanding and no dust to hinder adhesion. That 6" knife is razor sharp and often I use it to remove previous gobs of paint.


 I usually give the walls a quick pole sand to knock down all the rough crap from the spray job. Yeah I chip off the runs with a spackle knife or wallpaper scraper.
It's funny you say that about a smooth surface for paper. I have customers who want paper removed and then repaint. I tell them not to have great expectations and that it won't look like brand new drywall. Maybe I'll suggest a flat paint to hide imperfections. Imo wallpaper is the way to go in 100 year old homes. It hides a lot of those hairline cracks but not the big ones. I enjoy hanging paper but don't get to do it much cause it seems most of my customers want to see it gone.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Sounds good to me DanielMDolla.

Do whatever prep _you see the need_ to do in order to get the job done, get paid, and get called back/get a referral...that's (basically) ALL it's about, IMO.

You don't wanna sand out a run, or fill an old nail hole?

If the HO don't care, why should I ?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Nephew Sherwin said:


> Mudbone just curious on what type of sleeve/nap you used.


 Hi Nep I was using a 3/8 nap top quailty roller cover.I know most painters like using 1/2 but I dont care for the texture it leaves especially on a smooth substrate.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> I am not talking about setting a nail, although it should have been set the first time it was painted. People buy the biggest house they can for the cheapest money. They got what they paid for. I am talking about a nail that blows back out because it hit something. I have seen caulk joints almost a 1/2 inch thinck on door trim and some of the nastiest caulk jobs around. Imo sanding hard latex trim paint seems futile most of the time. I have had idoit homeowners painted themselves and got runs on the wall then want you to try and sand them out. Then what take a power sander and try to burn it down. Once you tear through the latex the liquid plastic coat just keeps peeling. Imo once paint job is ruined it is hard to get it looking better. It is not that I don't sand when I feel it is neccesary to make the paint job look good but it adds a lot of extra time to the job and in the crappy newer homes I repaint, it makes very little difference in the finish product. Kind of like sanding in between coats on the walls. Every extra move takes more time and costs more. I have to be competitive in my area.If the customer bought the house with crappy workmanship based on price then price is a variable when they hire for a repaint. They always seem to complain about the builder though like they got ripped off. If it is a high end house with a nice finish and craftstmanship I would price accordingly. I sell people the job they want to pay for. I feel latex paint bonds well to previously latex painted surfaces without sanding. Don't get me wrong, If I see something that looks like total ****, I take care of it, but imo these new construction homes are all ****. I tell them right out, "It's a paint job. I can't build you a new house with a paint brush".


No i hear you, i wasnt sure by the first post you made if you were suggesting to just leave a nail hanging out, and to never sand. forgive me if i read into that wrong. Alot of NC im seeing my way is crap as well, im talking walls out by more than a half inch, ceiling seams that look like they were just gouged into with fingers, painters that go in and dont give a rats about what they spray over, terrible caulking, flashing, half brushed half sprayed half curdled paint on the trim. and im talking about million-multi million dollar homes. i didnt even tip the iceberg there with things wrong either. Ive seen exteriors that were never primed, seem exteriors with moisture lock no caulking anywhere unprimed butt joints, mouldings with no scribe, cope, or even close to clean miter joints. I realize the markets are really what they are willing to pay for trust me, i always aim to try and do the best i can but like you say sometimes its just not in the budget and people are ok with that. Alot of NC they take the lowest bidder on everything, especially painting here. I wont even bid it because i know if i do im either screwing the future HO or im screwing myself to do it halfway decent. I do all repaints, and i try and sand everything first to smooth the surface, cut down on previous brush marks, clean it up. But i also put it in my bid as you say, give them the job the want to pay for.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

StripandCaulk said:


> No i hear you, i wasnt sure by the first post you made if you were suggesting to just leave a nail hanging out, and to never sand. forgive me if i read into that wrong. Alot of NC im seeing my way is crap as well, im talking walls out by more than a half inch, ceiling seams that look like they were just gouged into with fingers, painters that go in and dont give a rats about what they spray over, terrible caulking, flashing, half brushed half sprayed half curdled paint on the trim. and im talking about million-multi million dollar homes. i didnt even tip the iceberg there with things wrong either. Ive seen exteriors that were never primed, seem exteriors with moisture lock no caulking anywhere unprimed butt joints, mouldings with no scribe, cope, or even close to clean miter joints. I realize the markets are really what they are willing to pay for trust me, i always aim to try and do the best i can but like you say sometimes its just not in the budget and people are ok with that. Alot of NC they take the lowest bidder on everything, especially painting here. I wont even bid it because i know if i do im either screwing the future HO or im screwing myself to do it halfway decent. I do all repaints, and i try and sand everything first to smooth the surface, cut down on previous brush marks, clean it up. But i also put it in my bid as you say, give them the job the want to pay for.


Wow been there done that!It still amazes me when you just think you've seen it all.Crazy stuff.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

StripandCaulk said:


> No i hear you, i wasnt sure by the first post you made if you were suggesting to just leave a nail hanging out, and to never sand. forgive me if i read into that wrong. Alot of NC im seeing my way is crap as well, im talking walls out by more than a half inch, ceiling seams that look like they were just gouged into with fingers, painters that go in and dont give a rats about what they spray over, terrible caulking, flashing, half brushed half sprayed half curdled paint on the trim. and im talking about million-multi million dollar homes. i didnt even tip the iceberg there with things wrong either. Ive seen exteriors that were never primed, seem exteriors with moisture lock no caulking anywhere unprimed butt joints, mouldings with no scribe, cope, or even close to clean miter joints. I realize the markets are really what they are willing to pay for trust me, i always aim to try and do the best i can but like you say sometimes its just not in the budget and people are ok with that. Alot of NC they take the lowest bidder on everything, especially painting here. I wont even bid it because i know if i do im either screwing the future HO or im screwing myself to do it halfway decent. I do all repaints, and i try and sand everything first to smooth the surface, cut down on previous brush marks, clean it up. But i also put it in my bid as you say, give them the job the want to pay for.


 I guess I just don't like sanding that much.lol. It's just a pain and then there is dust afterwards. I guess I'm putting a lot of faith in the latex paints these days. I know the can says dull all glossy surfaces. Is an interior semi-gloss latex considered a glossy surface. I would say a semi-glossy surface. lmao. The paint seems to adhere good if I try to scratch it with my finger. I use SW Superpaint mostly. I just did 131 ballisters and would have hated to sand each one. It all depends if it is a high traffic surface that gets used or not. I guess I should really sand:001_unsure: but have gotten away from it to make better time. Your making me feel guilty now. I word my contract "prep as needed". I'd hate to say sand all surfaces than it is expected. I guess I'm afraid to get my bids too high.
One time years ago a friend of mine slathered on America's Finest latex over shiny gloss oil enamel in a guys house. What a goof. It peeled right off with a finger nail. He was blow torching it off and wanted me to help him!:no: One of the best laughs of my life. Needless to say he wasn't a painter. In his defense his wife was pregnant and they were staying there at the Jersey shore(why he was doing the job for her veternarian boss) and he didn't want her breathing in fumes.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

DanielMDollaPainting said:


> I guess I just don't like sanding that much.lol. It's just a pain and then there is dust afterwards. I guess I'm putting a lot of faith in the latex paints these days. I know the can says dull all glossy surfaces. Is an interior semi-gloss latex considered a glossy surface. I would say a semi-glossy surface. lmao. The paint seems to adhere good if I try to scratch it with my finger. I use SW Superpaint mostly. I just did 131 ballisters and would have hated to sand each one. It all depends if it is a high traffic surface that gets used or not. I guess I should really sand:001_unsure: but have gotten away from it to make better time. Your making me feel guilty now. I word my contract "prep as needed". I'd hate to say sand all surfaces than it is expected. I guess I'm afraid to get my bids too high.
> One time years ago a friend of mine slathered on America's Finest latex over shiny gloss oil enamel in a guys house. What a goof. It peeled right off with a finger nail. He was blow torching it off and wanted me to help him!:no: One of the best laughs of my life. Needless to say he wasn't a painter. In his defense his wife was pregnant and they were staying there at the Jersey shore(why he was doing the job for her veternarian boss) and he didn't want her breathing in fumes.


lmao, blow torch would make one helllluva heat gun haha. Ive painted over some semi gloss doors without sanding going over with another latex semi. The adhesion is fine, i sand anyway vaccum right after. I have a 1 gallon shop vac, very lightweight easy to carry even got a backpack strap for it ghostbusters style:thumbsup:. Sanding always produces a smoother finish, gets rid of any imperfections, grit, brushstrokes whatever in the previous coats. Latex doesnt like to be sanded so we'll use in between 150-220 grit. I explain this to my clients durring the bid, they usually dont have a problem paying for it. Apples to Apples..granted 131 ballisters would suck. My old man has a cabinet shop, i grew up around furniture grade finishes..sanding, more sanding, and more sanding. 220, 330, 600 grit paper. in between every coat religously. not to mention durring construction of whatever it was. i guess that kind of carried into my painting. from my understanding semi-gloss is the highest gloss that latex paints carry? sherwin has gloss lol but as every rep i have talked to explained it is supposed to be the equivalent to semi.


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