# Stays Clear over Advance?



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I saw a video that putlotson posted on here a while back where he put Stays Clear over black Advance on a handrail. The samples he showed looked great. 

I don't know if this is technically a BM approved system, but both my rep and the local store owner don't see any problem doing it, and my own sample testing seems to be fine, and are quite tough. With some of the variations in final film hardness I've been seeing from Advance lately, it seems like a good idea for something like cabinets. I'm going to give it a try on the set I'm doing now. 

Has anyone else tried this? Thoughts?


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

What Sheen on the advance?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Had someone ask about this the other day in my store and wasn't really sure what to tell them. I don't know why it wouldn't work, but I definitely wouldn't recommend it without trying it out on a sample first (which it sounds like you're doing). Really hard to tell how things will do with age, but you could always promise to come back and fix it if there's a problem down the road?

Reading the TDS the only problem I see is the one note that says applying over fresh alkyd paint may cause yellowing of the base coat. It's pretty hard to say whether Advance would react like a waterborne or an oil based coating in this scenario.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

matt19422 said:


> What Sheen on the advance?



Satin Advance and I'm tipping with Low Luster Stays Clear.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> Had someone ask about this the other day in my store and wasn't really sure what to tell them. I don't know why it wouldn't work, but I definitely wouldn't recommend it without trying it out on a sample first (which it sounds like you're doing). Really hard to tell how things will do with age, but you could always promise to come back and fix it if there's a problem down the road?
> 
> 
> 
> Reading the TDS the only problem I see is the one note that says applying over fresh alkyd paint may cause yellowing of the base coat. It's pretty hard to say whether Advance would react like a waterborne or an oil based coating in this scenario.



Yes, the yellowing potential is a little worrisome. The lighter color I'm using is an off white, so if it does yellow I should notice it pretty quickly. 

My only other concern is adhesion as the Stays Clear calls for dulling glossy surfaces. I'm giving the doors a light wet sand before coating to make me feel better about that. Just enough to dull them down. 

















The scratches disappear after coating. 

So far, I'm liking the look of it. Here's the back of a door I did first to test. 









No apparent yellowing yet on the lighter colored ones. If it's going to happen I would assume it'll happen within a few hours?


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We do some times on interior hand rails. It does make it pop more and protect it a little more.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

You might see the yellowing happen more after exposure to light, especially sunlight (if they're going to be in sunlight). Otherwise, I'd expect it to be pretty quick. I'm curious how it'll turn out; if you were in my area I might've given you some free product to test it out just for my own curiosity. Hopefully it keeps going well, it looks fantastic so far.


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## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

I will throw this out there not sure if it would work or not. I know some painters who use PPG breakthrough in clear base as a stand along clear. Could you apply the paint say advance black and then a clear base of advance over that? I like the idea of a clear over the paint but it does make touch ups harder.


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## bbair (Nov 18, 2012)

Why use advance for cabinets? Kem Aqua is the best water based finish I've used. Advance is more of a trim paint, I think. Then just skip the need for a clear coat. Plus, KA is much cheaper, dries faster, sands better, and is more durable.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Advance has another big disadvantage on a set like this and that is the Slooowness of it. When you add up the 16 hr dry times for two coats on each side and waiting 6 or more hours to flip doors (I do them horizontally) that's a ton of time in the shop. And the fact that it stays soft for so long makes the doors touchy to handle. 

In this case the boxes were being revamped and I couldn't start painting them till today anyway so the long shop time didn't really matter to the scope of the job, still it's been a maddeningly slow process. The only other set I've done with it was a European set that I didn't have to take apart. 

It's been an interesting experiment, but I doubt I'll use Advance for another set of cabinets like this without a very good reason. Cabinet Coat was my first thought, but I couldn't get it in the base 2 color that goes on the island. Maybe next time.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

gabe said:


> I will throw this out there not sure if it would work or not. I know some painters who use PPG breakthrough in clear base as a stand along clear. Could you apply the paint say advance black and then a clear base of advance over that? I like the idea of a clear over the paint but it does make touch ups harder.


Advance doesn't have a clear base, so that won't work out


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

bbair said:


> Why use advance for cabinets? Kem Aqua is the best water based finish I've used. Advance is more of a trim paint, I think. Then just skip the need for a clear coat. Plus, KA is much cheaper, dries faster, sands better, and is more durable.


There's several reasons to use Advance over Kem Aqua in some situations. Advance (being a true oil base) inhibits tannin bleed much better than Kem Aqua on woods that are susceptible. It's also tintable to any color from white to black, unlike Kem Aqua. There's different reasons to use both- I think Advance can give a better looking finish in the end, too, but that's just personal opinion.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> There's several reasons to use Advance over Kem Aqua in some situations. Advance (being a true oil base) inhibits tannin bleed much better than Kem Aqua on woods that are susceptible. It's also tintable to any color from white to black, unlike Kem Aqua. There's different reasons to use both- I think Advance can give a better looking finish in the end, too, but that's just personal opinion.



Yeah, I'm this case we are working with BM colors so Advance was my easiest choice in that regard. 

Another advantage is being able to get a spray like finish from hand painting the boxes. From what I understand Kem Aqua is basicity spray only. This set is in an occupied house with a bunch of little kids and the kitchen in partially being used during the job. I would like spray the boxes, but it's not a good option.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Being able to brush and have it look so good is a huge plus for sure.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

After a long delay with hardware, and waiting for counter tops and splashes to go in I'm finally doing the finishing touches on this set. It's kinda good that it took so long as I'm getting to see them mostly cured out and after some use. 

The low luster Stays Clear turned out a little shiner than I hoped for, but I like it overall. There is a slight difference in texture of course between the sprayed doors and the brushed/rolled boxes. 


















They seem hard as a rock and I was able to easily wipe off any smudges and grime from the installers and the limited use they have seen. 


















I will use this system again if I can sell it. It's a very nice, hard finish. It's just time consuming to achieve and it's not always practical to drag a cabinet job out that long.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Looks awesome man. Hope the HO's appreciate all your efforts.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Very nice work.


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Look's good.. They are a bit shiny wonder if that will tame down with time like other satin finishes?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Delta Painting said:


> Look's good.. They are a bit shiny wonder if that will tame down with time like other satin finishes?



I doubt it will much. The sheen level for Stays Clear low luster is 10 units higher than Advance satin. The boxes had been done going on three weeks at the time of the pics. 

It's a shame there isn't a less shiny version of the Stays Clear. It goes from low luster to flat. I'm sure what it's going over (Bin+Advance) is providing maximum sheen hold out. Probably wouldn't show that much sheen on raw wood. 

The rolled (microfiber) boxes show a tad more sheen than the doors. That's odd, seems like it's usually the other way around.


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> It's a shame there isn't a less shiny version of the Stays Clear. It goes from low luster to flat.


Try boxing a quart of each together?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Thought I would update this thread for posterity. We’re going back to that house for another project, and to do some touch ups on the cabinets. 

To reiterate, I used shellac primer, Advance, and a Stays Clear (BM) top coat. I sent somebody over there today to get started and take pictures of the cabinet issues. 

It seems my suspicions about using hard, inflexible coatings (Bin/Advance) on high use cabinets is somewhat right. They’re chipping in several places. Looks like any good whack they’ve taken over the years has chipped the finish all the way to the wood. 



















It has been 4 years at this point, and they are a set that gets a lot of use, but still I hate to see chipping like that. I’m glad we stopped using Advance for high traffic stuff a long time ago. I had started noticing the durability claims weren’t quite living up to the hype. 

I’ll give more details tomorrow when I go over there. 


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Outside of the issues with it chipping, I’m curious if the addition of the stays clear helped with the overall durability or made no difference? 

I wish I had more time, because I’d like to spray sample doors of SW HydroPlus, Milesi HKR111 and BM Scuff-X. All these coatings are very durabale, but I’m curious how they hold up against household cleaner and various foods such as mustard that tend to stain.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

After seeing these in person, I gotta say they’ve held up quite well overall. The chipping seems to be the only major issue. Some of the door edges, and isolated places on the boxes are chipped. And a couple inside corners on the frames have cracked. The dog gnawed on one corner of the island and messed it up, but can’t blame that on the coating. 

All in all they still look good. I tried to take some pics from a similar angle as the original ones for comparison. 




























After 4 years of heavy use from a family with 4 home schooled kids and two big indoor dogs, I’m quite happy with how they’ve done. And more importantly the customer is. 

The project we’re doing now is just to freshen up the place before they sell it and move across the state. So this might be the last time I see this set. 

Still no plans to use Advance for cabinetry anymore unless specifically requested, but I gotta give a thumbs up to how this system performed overall. 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PNW Painter said:


> Outside of the issues with it chipping, I’m curious if the addition of the stays clear helped with the overall durability or made no difference?
> 
> I wish I had more time, because I’d like to spray sample doors of SW HydroPlus, Milesi HKR111 and BM Scuff-X. All these coatings are very durabale, but I’m curious how they hold up against household cleaner and various foods such as mustard that tend to stain.
> 
> ...




They seem to be quite washable. They were fairly clean when I got here, but I took a magic eraser and some water and spot cleaned them. Haven’t seen any staining or any food residue that didn’t come off with the magic eraser. 


Hard to say if the Stays Clear added to the wash ability.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I agree they look great and have held up well. I would think as oood or possibility better than a factory finish would do under the same conditions. How much of that would you attribute to your clear coat? Did the Advanced yellow? Are you using same color of Avanced as touchup? Are you going to continue with BIN/Advanced/Staysclear? Thanks for pics! This kind of follow up on cabinet work is rare and very helpful.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Jmayspaint said:


> After seeing these in person, I gotta say they’ve held up quite well overall. The chipping seems to be the only major issue. Some of the door edges, and isolated places on the boxes are chipped. And a couple inside corners on the frames have cracked. The dog gnawed on one corner of the island and messed it up, but can’t blame that on the coating.
> 
> All in all they still look good. I tried to take some pics from a similar angle as the original ones for comparison.
> 
> ...


What cabinet paint are you using now? Breakthrough + Stays clear would be faster than Advance.

I'm seriously considering using Scuff-X on my next cabinet job. I just used it on an entire trim pack + doors and it is a very durable paint. I know hand oils might break it down 3-4 years down the road but that would only affect a few doors or drawers around the sink. This is all a guessing game right now anyways.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Tprice2193 said:


> I agree they look great and have held up well. I would think as oood or possibility better than a factory finish would do under the same conditions. How much of that would you attribute to your clear coat? Did the Advanced yellow? Are you using same color of Avanced as touchup? Are you going to continue with BIN/Advanced/Staysclear? Thanks for pics! This kind of follow up on cabinet work is rare and very helpful.




No noticeable yellowing on the Advance. Though this kitchen get a lot of sunlight. Several windows, and two glass doors. I’m touching it up with the original paint that I left here. 

I don’t use Advance much anymore, especially for cabinets. The slow dry/cure times are just impractical. 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Mr Smith said:


> What cabinet paint are you using now? Breakthrough + Stays clear would be faster than Advance.
> 
> I'm seriously considering using Scuff-X on my next cabinet job. I just used it on an entire trim pack + doors and it is a very durable paint. I know hand oils might break it down 3-4 years down the road but that would only affect a few doors or drawers around the sink. This is all a guessing game right now anyways.




Just Breakthrough alone is what we use now. No primer over previously finished cabinets. I haven’t found a primer that bites to lacquer/conversion varnish, laminate, etc., any better than the Breakthrough does. Most of them don’t bond as well actually. Unless we’re doing grain reduction on oak cabinets, or there is some reason to suspect tannin bleed might happen (which is rare), I don’t see any advantage to using a primer under the Breakthrough. 

Some tests Rbrigs did a while back comparing Breakthrough alone to Breakthrough topped with Stays Clear seemed to clearly show the BT cleaned up/resisted staining better than the Stays Clear did. I can’t remember what thread that was in, maybe Brigs has a link handy. 


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Just Breakthrough alone is what we use now. No primer over previously finished cabinets. I haven’t found a primer that bites to lacquer/conversion varnish, laminate, etc., any better than the Breakthrough does. Most of them don’t bond as well actually. Unless we’re doing grain reduction on oak cabinets, or there is some reason to suspect tannin bleed might happen (which is rare), I don’t see any advantage to using a primer under the Breakthrough.
> 
> Some tests Rbrigs did a while back comparing Breakthrough alone to Breakthrough topped with Stays Clear seemed to clearly show the BT cleaned up/resisted staining better than the Stays Clear did. I can’t remember what thread that was in, maybe Brigs has a link handy.
> 
> ...


I don't have a link handy but I tested it with straight BT then with General Finishes HP polly and Stays Clear over BT. Basically all I did was run a line of mustard and ketchup down all three and let it sit for two weeks. The Breakthrough cleaned way better on its own than the other two which was surprising. I have a pic somewhere if I can find it ill put it up. 

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## Center_line_Painting (Jun 4, 2017)

Just curious, @Jmayspaint...do you feel breakthrough has just as much of a bond as pigmented shellac over cabinets?
And have you encountered fisheyes or any other troubles with contaminates using the direct breakthrough?

Also!....How have intense color changes gone? like from a dark to a bright white..well any difficult color shift....my impression has been that breakthrough has poor coverage.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Center_line_Painting said:


> Just curious, @Jmayspaint...do you feel breakthrough has just as much of a bond as pigmented shellac over cabinets?
> And have you encountered fisheyes or any other troubles with contaminates using the direct breakthrough?
> 
> Also!....How have intense color changes gone? like from a dark to a bright white..well any difficult color shift....my impression has been that breakthrough has poor coverage.




I do feel like it bonds just as well. And it’s not brittle like shellac, which I like. 

No real problems with fish eye, or contamination. Of course, we clean well with Krud Kutter and a scotch brite pad. Occasionally there’ll be a problem on the edge of a door by the stove or microwave that didn’t get cleaned well enough (maybe has some grease residue) that has to be dealt with after the first coat. Overall though, I haven’t seen any issues like that. 

Extreme color changes can occasionally be a problem. Particularly dark to light. Sometimes I’ll spray the first coat of off white, or light gray over a dark door and at first it’ll look like it covered pretty well, but once it flows out and dries the edges of the panels, styles, and rails, show through.. 

In these instances, priming could very well save a coat. But I usually just do another coat or two of BT rather than add a different material to the mix. 

Drastic color changes other than dark to light, don’t present as much of an issue. It actually seems like the darker colored BT covers better than the lighter shades. We’ve been doing a lot of black, or very dark gray kitchen islands, and I’m often surprised at how well it does cover. Rarely takes more than two coats for something like that even if the island was light colored wood to begin with


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

Interesting long term study. 
I painted my daughter’s kitchen cabinets using Advance about 4 yrs. ago. I just recently noticed three or four minor chips. What most impressed me though is that the white ones have not noticeably yellowed, to my eye at least.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

fauxlynn said:


> Interesting long term study.
> I painted my daughter’s kitchen cabinets using Advance about 4 yrs. ago. I just recently noticed three or four minor chips. What most impressed me though is that the white ones have not noticeably yellowed, to my eye at least.




I think it has a lot to do with how much sunlight it’s exposed to. BM claims it yellows less than traditional oils, and it does seem to. My touch ups on this set blended in well. 

I have seen a few cases where a surface gets almost no sunlight that have yellowed pretty fast. On one house we did a couple years ago, the insides of the closet doors, and the trim in the pantry have yellowed noticeably. 


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

What I find interesting is the fact that over the years BT and Advance have been compared about so much. It's always enlightening to see so much discussion about the two products. we have personally tried about six different products for cabinets over the years. Advance is still our favorite but still it is not perfect by any means. If given a choice we would personally prefer using Benjamin Moore DTM oil on all cabinet jobs but the drawbacks are the smell and the effect it has on the body through inhalation of the solvents. In my opinion it is the best of all the products still out there that gives you the most longevity for durability, yet it doesn't usually make sense with today's households needing something that is less caustic to the environment and the house. I suppose a person needs to be diligent to do touch up on their kitchen cabinets if they want them to look good for many years to come. We always emphasize using warm water on a soft washcloth to remove stains and dirt from cabinets rather than using any cleaning solvents. We also encourage people to use an artist brush and touching up their cabinets periodically on any nicks or scratches. we've come to the conclusion that no matter what nothing is going to be bulletproof and the talks will continue on for as long as there is architectural painting to be done. we feel that if a cabinet job can look good anywhere between 10 to 15 years then our products have served their purpose. That along with cleaning and touch up by the homeowner will allow this to happen. We believe that for every painter out there painting cabinets there will be many different answers to this debate on the best product suited for cabinets. A potential newcomer to the mix is a product from Benjamin Moore called Scuff x. Yet the drawbacks are the fact it is a water soluble paint theoretically will not provide the hardness required to sustain the impact of everyday wear and tear of a kitchen that is touched and used every day. Scuff x seems very promising for built-in cabinets and other areas that may not sustain the impact on a daily basis like kitchen cabinets. We can only hope that the manufacturers will continue to strive to make a better more durable products that we applicators can rely on to give our customers value for years to come.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.

I know one Benjamin Moore paint store owner who has a sample kitchen cupboard door finished with Scuff X Pearl displayed in his shop. He's an ex-painter and he sprayed it with an airless using a 310. 

It has a beautiful tough finish. The only unknown is how well it stands up to hand oils. He says that might only affect a few doors near the sink and having to respray 3-4 doors is worth the gamble. Nobody really knows at this point, it's just theoretical. I'm hearing that they are coming out with a semi-gloss in the Scuff-X which is even better. The pearl finish was tough as nails.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.
> 
> I know one Benjamin Moore paint store owner who has a sample kitchen cupboard door finished with Scuff X Pearl displayed in his shop. He's an ex-painter and he sprayed it with an airless using a 310.
> 
> It has a beautiful tough finish. The only unknown is how well it stands up to hand oils. He says that might only affect a few doors near the sink and having to respray 3-4 doors is worth the gamble. Nobody really knows at this point, it's just theoretical. I'm hearing that they are coming out with a semi-gloss in the Scuff-X which is even better. The pearl finish was tough as nails.


Semigloss 1 and 2 bases with 'anti chipping' technology available in a month or two. 3, 4 bases semigloss still being worked on


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Mr Smith said:


> I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.
> 
> 
> 
> .....



Just to be clear, are you speaking of the 50 VOC variety or the 250 VOC variety? 

I know the 250 is unavailable in many parts of the country due to local and/or state VOC restrictions. 



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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Jmayspaint said:


> Just to be clear, are you speaking of the 50 VOC variety or the 250 VOC variety?
> 
> I know the 250 is unavailable in many parts of the country due to local and/or state VOC restrictions.
> 
> ...


Only the low VOC version is available in Canada. We have environmental laws similar to California.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Mr Smith said:


> I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.
> 
> I know one Benjamin Moore paint store owner who has a sample kitchen cupboard door finished with Scuff X Pearl displayed in his shop. He's an ex-painter and he sprayed it with an airless using a 310.
> 
> It has a beautiful tough finish. The only unknown is how well it stands up to hand oils. He says that might only affect a few doors near the sink and having to respray 3-4 doors is worth the gamble. Nobody really knows at this point, it's just theoretical. I'm hearing that they are coming out with a semi-gloss in the Scuff-X which is even better. The pearl finish was tough as nails.


. I really appreciate your input on this. we too have used scuff x for a lot of different built-ins and on whole house doors and trim and have been very impressed. Just recently he did a very high-end residential a giant kitchen window and painted the kitchen window with scuff x satin. What was really impressive to us was the window trim was a factory wire brushed rustic look. We use Bins shellac primer and rushed in the primer to get into all the cracks and crevices of the woods. Followed up with two coats of scuff x and it looked incredible as with every other project we've done with scuff x. It touches up extremely well. I suppose we might have to bite the bullet as well and just try it on some kitchen cabinets the determine how well it will hold up in years to come.
BTW our local rep said that the scuff x semi-gloss would be available to US during Colorado starting on March 18th.
Please keep me posted if you find out any more data from anyone about Scuff x on kitchen cabinets.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> Only the low VOC version is available in Canada. We have environmental laws similar to California.


That's the difference right there, I don't think I'd chance the low voc version on cabinets. 

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Mr Smith said:


> I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.
> 
> I know one Benjamin Moore paint store owner who has a sample kitchen cupboard door finished with Scuff X Pearl displayed in his shop. He's an ex-painter and he sprayed it with an airless using a 310.
> 
> It has a beautiful tough finish. The only unknown is how well it stands up to hand oils. He says that might only affect a few doors near the sink and having to respray 3-4 doors is worth the gamble. Nobody really knows at this point, it's just theoretical. I'm hearing that they are coming out with a semi-gloss in the Scuff-X which is even better. The pearl finish was tough as nails.


mar 18


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

For the sake of ongoing clarity, I think it's absolutely necessary to specify which version of Breakthrough a person is referring to. If I could, I'd start a petition to get PPG to change the name of the low voc Breakthrough 50 to something other than Breakthrough. IMO, 2 completely different products with characteristics & properties which greatly differ from one another. It's too easy to lump both versions into 1 category when reading claims of someone's experience with Breakthrough, whether good or bad. 

As a side note, unless a drastic reformulation of BT 50 is made to lessen its' shortcomings, I don't see it having legs long enough to stay on the market for an extended period of time, given the fact that, to date, its' primary reason for having any sort of popularity is only because it shares the same name as its' stronger big brother.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Mr Smith said:
> 
> 
> > I would never use Breakthrough on Kitchen cabinets. I've had two paint reps tell me the same.
> ...


I'm stoked, we get to use this Scuff X semi gloss next week on a whole house trim project.


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