# Self-Priming Exterior Paint?



## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm working on a proposal for an exterior repaint, cedar siding, existing paint is in pretty good shape other than fading, virtually no peeling or flaking, last painted about 7 years ago.

My sales rep visited the home and is recommending a standard powerwash and prep procedure, and then 2 coats of this "self priming" exterior coating.

This goes against my experience to not oil prime first, but he insists that it isn't required. Any thoughts?


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

tsp, powerwash, one coat of duration or aura, no prime.


----------



## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

I agree, although I have not used the Aura ext. yet. Duration kicks ass, and it _is_ self-priming, and around 15 bucks cheaper than Aura.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Why even consider repriming a already painted home which you noted is in good condition???


----------



## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

ParagonVA said:


> I agree, although I have not used the Aura ext. yet. Duration kicks ass, and it _is_ self-priming, and around 15 bucks cheaper than Aura.



Maybe it is because I am north of the border but I have never heard of Aura or Duration before . Are they paints or stains ? No paint supplier that I know of in Atlantic Canada handles a paint that will stay on cedar in this area . we always have to sandblast and use an oil stain to get any length of time out of it or else face blistering of the paint before we even are off a southerly exposed wall .


----------



## CBCo (Dec 21, 2007)

Aura is a Lowes product I believe, and Duration is a Sherwin Williams product. 
I always say in my Proposals that I prime any bare wood. Unless the paint is Chalking no priming is necessary as a rule of thumb.


----------



## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

I think you and I have discussed Hirschfields before, but have you tried their exterior products before?

Also have you tried any of Pittsburghs exterior products? Their manor hall exterior is fantastic and at least $10-15 less per gallon than Hirsch or Sherwin. Their top of the line is self priming. 

http://www.pittsburghpaints.com/our_products/exterior_paints/manor_hall_timeless_exterior/


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CBCo said:


> Aura is a Lowes product I believe,:no::blink::blink: and Duration is a Sherwin Williams product.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

www.benjaminmoore.com/*aura*


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

CBCo said:


> Aura is a Lowes product I believe, and Duration is a Sherwin Williams product.
> I always say in my Proposals that I prime any bare wood. Unless the paint is Chalking no priming is necessary as a rule of thumb.


Aura would be Benjamin Moore and not sold at Lowes..

Sorry Chris you beat me too it...


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> tsp, powerwash, one coat of duration or aura, no prime.


:thumbsup:

I really don't think you need TSP. Just PW it and paint it with a self priming product or two coats of a mid grade like Super Paint.


----------



## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I really don't think you need TSP. Just PW it and paint it with a self priming product or two coats of a mid grade like Super Paint.


:no:
TSP really helps cut through the chalk. I use that rinse free liquid stuff and downstream it now. works really slick.


----------



## IHATE_HOMEDEPOT (May 27, 2008)

*Cabot's House Cleaner for etching/cleaning*



tsunamicontract said:


> TSP really helps cut through the chalk. I use that rinse free liquid stuff and downstream it now. works really slick.


I don't recommend this ^ as it would not be very cost effective IMHO. A better route would be Cabot's house cleaner injected. As for the finish I would go with a solid stain, it does not have as much latex which might be a blister problem like you said. That is unless we are talking about white as the color then I would latex prime and paint.


----------



## EricTheHandyman (Jan 29, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> TSP really helps cut through the chalk. I use that rinse free liquid stuff and downstream it now. works really slick.


I like this product also, but do you guys know of a pre-paint house wash that won't etch the window glass?


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

You use emulsa bond in the first coat if its chalky. If you power wash it then your going to have milky looking paint all over the windows and everything else.


----------



## Gjorda (Apr 28, 2009)

Duration is a great product! Also like the Hirshfields Platinum Ceramic ext.

Both are self priming.

Priming Bare areas of the wood is needed for a nice clean finish product. 

Oil priming...my thoughts...
Oil based paints/primers create a barrier that moisture can not break through. Latex paints/primers are permeable, so to allow moisture to pass through and not cause peeling, blistering, etc.

any body have any thoughts on that?


----------



## Paintuh4Life (May 20, 2009)

I've used a couple of coats of Duration on bare wood and I had bleeding problems. I asked them about that at the SW store and they said, "yeah, that can happen". I will never do that again.


----------



## Dmax Consulting (Jul 22, 2008)

Be careful using heavy acrylics on cedar. Their weight can cause delamination of the wood. I've seen disastrous results with Duration on cedar.

Use something that says it is okay for cedar.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

EricTheHandyman said:


> I'm working on a proposal for an exterior repaint, cedar siding, existing paint is in pretty good shape other than fading, virtually no peeling or flaking, last painted about 7 years ago.
> 
> My sales rep visited the home and is recommending a standard powerwash and prep procedure, and then 2 coats of this "self priming" exterior coating.
> 
> This goes against my experience to not oil prime first, but he insists that it isn't required. Any thoughts?


WARNING!!! WARNING!!! There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint, UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!! EVERYTHING ELSE NEEDS PRIMER!!!!! If you are going to paint, ALWAYS use a primer first. Coem on guys!!!


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

hammerheart14 said:


> WARNING!!! WARNING!!! There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint, UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!! EVERYTHING ELSE NEEDS PRIMER!!!!! If you are going to paint, ALWAYS use a primer first. Coem on guys!!!


Yes there is and have been using it for years. If it was not self priming then those Duration jobs from 7 years ago would not look so good to this day. Some people need to accept change a little better especially if your trying to run a successful business.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

hammerheart14 said:


> WARNING!!! WARNING!!! There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint, UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!! EVERYTHING ELSE NEEDS PRIMER!!!!! If you are going to paint, ALWAYS use a primer first. Coem on guys!!!


Buddy, you have posted 8 times so far, and I have read every one.....and I must admit, wasted my time. You are completely over the top, and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I will now bill you for every asinine post you make that I read


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Buddy, you have posted 8 times so far, and I have read every one.....and I must admit, wasted my time. You are completely over the top, and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I will now bill you for every asinine post you make that I read


LOL, he does seem to have an opinion huh! It is amazing how much you can find out about somebody by googling their user name!:jester:


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> LOL, he does seem to have an opinion huh! It is amazing how much you can find out about somebody by googling their user name!:jester:


Totally.


----------



## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

It's amazing that such an obvious troll is still alive and kicking :whistling2:


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

BC_Painter said:


> It's amazing that such an obvious troll is still alive and kicking :whistling2:


 His delivery may not be in the best taste, but maybe we can help him with that!


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Some of these necro-threads are interesting.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Was thinking the same thing.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Was thinking the same thing.


Thank God we have such colorful new members or it would be all this all the time. :blink:


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Buddy, you have posted 8 times so far, and I have read every one.....and I must admit, wasted my time. You are completely over the top, and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I will now bill you for every asinine post you make that I read


Sorry, but I'm not a troll and I know my paint. When it comes to exterior painting, in Big Bear, you ALWAYS use a primer first. When you get extreme temperature change, snow, and high uv, primer is recommended. Sure, maybe not for stucco houses in san bernardino, but where I live, priming is neccessary, at least with my fourteen year experience and my father's fourty years painting experience.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

Hammerheart, define extreme weather changes. 

I'm in Wisconsin and weather in the Midwest can be pretty extreme. Summers often hit mid to high 90s and winters as low as mid -20s. I have no fear of using a self priming paint or solid color stains sans primer. Stripped a deck a few weeks ago, and two coated it with a solid color deckscapes :thumbsup:. I'll put it up against anything comparable that's been primed and painted.

Depending on what you're painting, sure a primer is needed occasionally. Reading the OP, I'd spot prime w the self priming paint and go on to two coat it and not think twice about it.

Come down off the mountain and find out how the industry has changed. You may learn a thing or two about a thing or two.

And since I'm not going to follow you around the boards, about your fondness for cabots... it officially sucks now days. Cedar lap siding home. New construction. Six years ago. Back sealed and one coated w/semi solid cabot oil before the siding went up. Second coated once construction was complete. It was recommended to the HOs to recoat every 3-5 years. Three years ago. The stain was holding up fairly well. HOs complying with the recomended maintenance, light pressure wash and recoated with semi solid cabot oil. (same product, same color, new batch) Less than six months later, product failure. Battle between HO, Cabots and my employer for liability. The changes to their product line were discovered and Cabots footed the bill. Although a Cabots pruduct had to be used. HO were advised against using Cabots but didn't listen. Two years ago they signed a waver releasing us if there was another product failure. Power washed the heck out of it, two coated it. Walked away and have heard nothing but horror stories about Cabots since. 

Well... until now.

ETA: I've used a semi solid woodscapes on a similar home 5 years ago. It might need a recoat in another 2 years.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> Hammerheart, define extreme weather changes.
> 
> I'm in Wisconsin and weather in the Midwest can be pretty extreme. Summers often hit mid to high 90s and winters as low as mid -20s. I have no fear of using a self priming paint or solid color stains sans primer. Stripped a deck a few weeks ago, and two coated it with a solid color deckscapes :thumbsup:. I'll put it up against anything comparable that's been primed and painted.
> 
> ...


solid oil stains are self priming. but i call bs on a self priming ext. paint in high altitude. i see a job failure every month because of "self priming" paint. sorry, but if you're gonna paint, you should use a good quality primer first, if you want your job to last. and cabot's stains are still the very same stain i have been using since 1998. if there is a problem, 99.9% of the time, it's human error. if you recoated a stain, wet on dry, there's your problem. if there is EVEN a second coat NEEDED, it's always wet on wet.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

ps you used a solid acylic deck STAIN, hence it's self priming. I am talking about using a real PAINT. PAINTS needs primers, stains do not.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> WARNING!!! WARNING!!! There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint, *UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!! **EVERYTHING ELSE NEEDS PRIMER!!!!!* If you are going to paint, ALWAYS use a primer first. Coem on guys!!!


The product I used was latex. Last time I checked latex wasn't an extreior oil.

Would you like me to make a list of aluminum and vinyl sided homes I've done with self priming latex paints and provide addresses so you can do an inspection? 

I'm still wondering if Wisconsin climate changes are extreme enough to put products to "the test".



hammerheart14 said:


> and cabot's stains are still the very same stain i have been using since 1998. if there is a problem, 99.9% of the time,


I guess it was a 0.1% job since Cabots conceded it was product failure.

Also, no company wants it to be public knowledge that the formula to tried and true product has changed. Maybe word didn't hit the mountain top yet.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*changing formulas*



i said:


> The product I used was latex. Last time I checked latex wasn't an extreior oil.
> 
> Would you like me to make a list of aluminum and vinyl sided homes I've done with self priming latex paints and provide addresses so you can do an inspection?
> 
> ...


The likely problem with the Cabot stain was reformulation to comply with new VOC limits. A responsible company will test the reformulated material before selling it to the public, but you can't test for everything, and sometimes the tests aren't accurate. Once a failure occurs caused by unforeseen side effects of reformulation, it becomes a matter of company policy as to how they deal with it.

It might interest my fellow forum members to know that sometimes raw materials suppliers will change their specs without telling us manufacturers. This screws up our products, and we sometimes don't know until we find out from our customers. This happened to me several years ago with a very reliable defoamer company. I caught it before the product shipped. The company insisted there was no effective difference between the old and new product. They even had the same name. Eventually, when a very big and famous paint maker ruined 20,000 gallons with this additive and made them pay up, they admitted it was different.

The reason it was changed was to comply with European VOC laws. They wanted to sell the same product across the board, not bothering to make a special version for the US. Why do that? Same stuff, right?


----------



## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

:blink:Can you guys get along??? :whistling2:


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

Gjorda said:


> Duration is a great product! Also like the Hirshfields Platinum Ceramic ext.
> 
> Both are self priming.
> 
> ...


That is correct, but latex permeability is relative to the level of gloss (or resin content), i.e. construction grade, bottom line flat is as permeable as a straining bag, where as a high gloss latex finish will bubble before it will let moisture escape. 

The higher the resin content, the more flexible the finish, and the more ability it has to stretch before it cracks. So the ability to pass moisture reduces as the resin content increases.

A flat, or 'maybe' even a satin will let the moisture leach through to the surface, depending on how fast it's coming, but even if it does, rest assured the adhesion has been adversely affected.

And BTW, that old 'let's the wood breath' thing, to me was just a marketing ploy. I really don't want my wood to breath. If it can 'breath', it can suck it in as well as let it out. I want my wood suffocated by it's coating. And if it needs to exhale moisture, then it's too wet to paint in the first place.

And a challenge........can anyone tell me what the special 'ingredient' is that differentiates a '*self priming*' latex from a regular latex?

I'm dying to find out.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I was walking through a mad house at Home Depot today to pick up a couple of DeWalt combo kits (two drills, 18v litho ion impact drill and a reg 1/2 inch drills for $279 --best drill kit ever) and was walking past the paint desk and heard a HO ask for " That new paint with the primer mixed right in!! " The 16 year old paint desk pro said "That stuff is the best paint I've ever seen....right this way!" I laughed out loud, loud enough for both of them to stop and look at me. Awesome stuff!


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I walked through Home Depot today too. Man I bet was the same time, keeping in consideration of our 3hr time difference. 
It was nuts, I think memorial weekend is HD best weekend for the year. All th DIY out doing the honeydo's.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*What's in a primer?*



kerk said:


> That is correct, but latex permeability is relative to the level of gloss (or resin content), i.e. construction grade, bottom line flat is as permeable as a straining bag, where as a high gloss latex finish will bubble before it will let moisture escape.
> 
> The higher the resin content, the more flexible the finish, and the more ability it has to stretch before it cracks. So the ability to pass moisture reduces as the resin content increases.
> 
> ...


If a pre-painted surface is smooth, clean and patch free, then maybe it doesn't need primer. If you use regular latex over fresh wallboard, you're asking a topcoat to close out all the imperfections and irregular porosity that is best done with a primer designed for the purpose.

Since a primer doesn't have to have good scrub, burnish and water/solvent resistant, it can be formulated to everything a paint can't, like block stain, fill in sanding marks and scratches, etc. The good ones can be sanded smooth soon after drying to the touch, ready for topcoat.

If you add something to a topcoat to make it more primer-like, you will compromise its physical properties. A paint with good opacity can replace one function of a primer-good coverage for a color change. That doesn't mean it will do everything else a primer should do, like adhere to difficult substrates.

"Self-priming" is likely a sales gimmick that works on the uninformed consumer. It shouldn't fool the professional.


----------



## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Pass the popcorn please


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> The product I used was latex. Last time I checked latex wasn't an extreior oil.
> 
> Would you like me to make a list of aluminum and vinyl sided homes I've done with self priming latex paints and provide addresses so you can do an inspection?
> 
> ...


you used an acrylic latex stain, which is self-priming. sound like you don't even truly understand the products you use. but don't worry, most painters don't. and i am referring to wood homes in mountain environments, wood requires a prime coat more so than aluminum. and for cabot, they did lower their voc to adapt to epa regulations, but once again, in big bear lake, california, i can sell 550 voc oils stains, BECAUSE we are exempt. so I don't know of this problem.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> If a pre-painted surface is smooth, clean and patch free, then maybe it doesn't need primer. If you use regular latex over fresh wallboard, you're asking a topcoat to close out all the imperfections and irregular porosity that is best done with a primer designed for the purpose.
> 
> Since a primer doesn't have to have good scrub, burnish and water/solvent resistant, it can be formulated to everything a paint can't, like block stain, fill in sanding marks and scratches, etc. The good ones can be sanded smooth soon after drying to the touch, ready for topcoat.
> 
> ...


right on man, (edited)


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> you used an acrylic latex stain, which is self-priming. sound like you don't even truly understand the products you use. but don't worry, most painters don't. and i am referring to wood homes in mountain environments, wood requires a prime coat more so than aluminum. and for cabot, they did lower their voc to adapt to epa regulations, but once again, in big bear lake, california, i can sell 550 voc oils stains, BECAUSE we are exempt. so I don't know of this problem.





Wood homes in any environment should be stained and not painted, unless of course someone had the bright idea of painting it previously.


If my memory serves me, Cabots turned to shit when Valspar took over.


Actually I think it's you who don't understand the products I use and maybe since your _"expertise" _deals with a different environment and different products, maybe you should... :shutup: ...think twice about offering advice about environments you don't work in or products you don't use.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Since a primer doesn't have to have good scrub, burnish and water/solvent resistant, it can be formulated to everything a paint can't, like block stain, fill in sanding marks and scratches, etc. The good ones can be sanded smooth soon after drying to the touch, ready for topcoat.


I would say that that description fits any bottom line construction flat that's loaded with clay. And as far as the 'stain blocking', what accomplishes that in a 'latex' other than titanium? 

And that is only effective against non water activated stains.

So as far as 'wall board', as far as I know, the only thing of any purpose as a 'prime coat' (to keep down the fuzzing) is a product that is heavier on the resin, and light on the titanium..........called drywall primer. I might see using it if the finish coat is going to be a semi gloss or maybe a satin, to minimize flashing, but if it was a flat topcoat, I would just take my chance with two coats of flat. Worse thing that could happen is the need for a third coat, which I would have had to do if I used a drywall primer.

If you need the filling effect of a coat of clay on the wall as an undercoater, then in that case, I could see a product that is heavy in clay, and has maybe a 10-12% level of vinyl-acrylic resin, and is void of titanium (which serves no purpose in that role), so that it grabs, fills, and sands. 

And technically, no, a primer doesn't have to have 'good scrub', but it does have to have good adhesion, which is a product of a decent amount of resin, which also has to be present in a 'good scrub' product, although the pigments will differ.



H2O Paint Chemist said:


> "Self-priming" is likely a sales gimmick that works on the uninformed consumer. It shouldn't fool the professional.


Bingo.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

kerk said:


> I would say that that description fits any bottom line construction flat that's loaded with clay. And as far as the 'stain blocking', what accomplishes that in a 'latex' other than titanium?
> 
> And that is only effective against non water activated stains.
> 
> ...


Titanium dioxide has good optical blocking properties, but it does nothing to block water activated stains.

The waterborne primer that actually blocks tannin and most other stains is my new formulation that I described several months ago and will be ready to sample to the trade in around 2 weeks.

You're quite right about adhesion: you have to have enough resin to adhere, enough TiO2 for optical qualities, enough clay of the right kind to fill and sand easily, all balanced for high solids, low VOC, good brush and roll . . . .

I realize "clay" is a dirty word around here, but believe me, there are dozens of varieties, and without them, paint and primer quality would suffer.

A cheap latex flat might do the trick in many instances, and a specialty wall board primer is best for wall board. That's why I like dealing with professionals like those on this forum. When confronted with many choices to solve many different problems, they will take the time to chose the best possible solution. The DIY'er just grabs what the salesman says is the best.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

*"Wood homes in any environment should be stained and not painted, unless of course someone had the bright idea of painting it previously. "*

Please define what this means. Log homes. Cedar sided homes. T-111 sided homes?


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

*"The waterborne primer that actually blocks tannin and most other stains is my new formulation that I described several months ago and will be ready to sample to the trade in around 2 weeks."*

Are you referring to an interior product? I've been using an exterior waterborne stain/tannin blocking primer for years. Acri-lite Primer


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

This is really deep. I think hammerhead is lost.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

RPS said:


> This is really deep. I think hammerhead is lost.


actaully, quite the opposite. i have been involved in the paint world for a long time. and like someone said before, stains work much better for wood homes in extreme environments. much better than paints.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> *"The waterborne primer that actually blocks tannin and most other stains is my new formulation that I described several months ago and will be ready to sample to the trade in around 2 weeks."*
> 
> Are you referring to an interior product? I've been using an exterior waterborne stain/tannin blocking primer for years. Acri-lite Primer


no waterbase primer on the market can block tannin acids and old oil base stains like an oil base primer can. product in mind i use is the cabot problem solver primer. it takes two coats of a waterbase to cover what problem solver can in one. really, i see all the cabot hate as jealousy more than anything.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> no waterbase primer on the market can block tannin acids and old oil base stains like an oil base primer can. product in mind i use is the cabot problem solver primer. it takes two coats of a waterbase to cover what problem solver can in one. really, i see all the cabot hate as jealousy more than anything.


Dude.....You're so full of Cabots, it's leaking out your mouth!

I guess the primer I've been using the last 26 or so years really hasn't been blocking Tannin stains. It must be an optical illusion.

I also guess the raw Cedar handrails I primed and painted a couple weeks back with Acri-lite primer and latex paint bled too, eh? Even though I dropped by the job today and they look great. I painted them white, too.

Not in defense of you, but back in the day I feel Cabot's stain was some of the best on the market. I haven't used the newer low VOC formula and won't now after I've read the feedback on it.

Tell you what. When I have a log cabin to stain in Big Bear, you'll be my go-to person. Until then, please don't give me advice on paint and painting procedures. It's obvious you spend most of your time in the store and not much in the field.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

RPS said:


> This is really deep. I think hammerhead is lost.


I think HH thinks he knows all and his ignorance is showing.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> Dude.....You're so full of Cabots, it's leaking out your mouth!
> 
> I guess the primer I've been using the last 26 or so years really hasn't been blocking Tannin stains. It must be an optical illusion.
> 
> ...


actually, i have been working on site on and off for seventeen years with my father, who has over fourty years painting experience. i can count over five different job inspections where tannin acids bleed through the water base primer used, usually took more than six months, but it happened. one case, i had them spot prime with bin, and stopped the bleedthrough, the other four were with the problem solver, and guess what, problem solved. if you are so experienced, why do you not know it sometimes takes a while for the tannin acids to bleed through? btw, cabot's higher voc stains are still the best, trust me, i have done sample tests over 12 years now, and cabot has always come out on top. (sikkens did well too, but so overpriced. well, anything owned by akzonobel is, actually.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> I think HH thinks he knows all and his ignorance is showing.


i can blow you out of the water anytime man. come on, bump heads with me.


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

:notworthy:


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

RPS said:


> :notworthy:


i'm only like this because i'm very passionate about what i do. and i'm tired of there being so many ****ty painters out there. it pisses me off to see good homeowners being taken advantage of. and also when a good painter gets ripped off by a homeowner.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> i can blow you out of the water anytime man. come on, bump heads with me.


That made me laugh. :tt2:

Like I said, when I have a log cabin in Big Bear to stain, you'll be my go-to paint store employee! Promise!


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> That made me laugh. :tt2:
> 
> Like I said, when I have a log cabin in Big Bear to stain, you'll be my go-to paint store employee! Promise!


only if you promise to use an oil base primer for tannin acid woods like redwood and cedars, then we'll talk


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

This is a place to bounce ideas of from eachother. Get different ideas and learn from others and give advice. Obviously everyone in hear is passionate about what they do. You cant come here acting like a know it all and assume everybody is stupid. And from reading your post you have a lot to learn. And Im pretty sure I can paint circles around you.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RPS said:


> This is a place to bounce ideas of from eachother. Get different ideas and learn from others and give advice. Obviously everyone in hear is passionate about what they do. You cant come here acting like a know it all and assume everybody is stupid. And from reading your post you have a lot to learn. And Im pretty sure I can paint circles around you.


 
With his fathers 40 years of experience, i would be careful about that statement:w00t::laughing:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Can we ship the hammer back to the amateur forum now? And the heavy metal forum? And the paint applicators above the inversion line forum? We dont seem to have a spot for someone of his unique skill set on this roster. Please designate for assignment.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

To sum this whole thread up: I'm always right, you're always wrong, and everybody else sucks. Did I miss anything?


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> *"The waterborne primer that actually blocks tannin and most other stains is my new formulation that I described several months ago and will be ready to sample to the trade in around 2 weeks."*
> 
> Are you referring to an interior product? I've been using an exterior waterborne stain/tannin blocking primer for years. Acri-lite Primer


My new tannin stain blocking primer is intended for interior use and is being tested for exterior durability.

Thanks for bringing the Miller product to my attention. Since it can require two coats for stain blocking in some instances, it's probably based on a conventional additives technology. Adding zinc oxide to a primer imparts some stain blocking, the more the better. The more coats, the better.

My new formulation doesn't use additives to achieve its stain blocking. The basic resin itself does the job. It needs only one coat, and has high opacity as well as stain blocking.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Waterbased stain blocker?*



hammerheart14 said:


> no waterbase primer on the market can block tannin acids and old oil base stains like an oil base primer can. product in mind i use is the cabot problem solver primer. it takes two coats of a waterbase to cover what problem solver can in one. really, i see all the cabot hate as jealousy more than anything.


You're right: no waterbased stain blocking on the market can block stains like oil. That's because my new formulation, with new tannin stain blocking technology, isn't on the market yet.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I have been in the industry for.....this is my 15th year and 5th as an owner. My partner has over 30 years experience. Neither one of us knows everything. We learn new things about products, applications, and techniques constantly. I joined this forum to help others and to learn. When I know the correct answer to a question, I post. If I don't, I shut up and listen. 

I have seen new cedar primed/painted with acrylics hold up fine......I have also seen them bleed. I have also seen them bleed using alkyds. Wood is crazy like that, and is I guess different from tree to tree. 

I've seen homes next to each other, painted by the same painter, with the same method and product.....one fails while the other is fine. Everyone is left scratching their heads.

Coatings are a tricky business, and to say there is only one end all be all product/method is absurd. This is a world wide forum with members from all over. That's why typically in my posts I will usually add (in my area) because climate can drastically change the the products/techniques needed to complete any given job.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> I have been in the industry for.....this is my 15th year and 5th as an owner. My partner has over 30 years experience. Neither one of us knows everything. We learn new things about products, applications, and techniques constantly. I joined this forum to help others and to learn. When I know the correct answer to a question, I post. If I don't, I shut up and listen.
> 
> I have seen new cedar primed/painted with acrylics hold up fine......I have also seen them bleed. I have also seen them bleed using alkyds. Wood is crazy like that, and is I guess different from tree to tree.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Double post from my phone......sausage fingers + tiny keypad = double post.


Without the voice recognition on my phone, a text or email would take me forever.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

I don't know everything, but I know alot in my trade. I have painted for 17 years and sold paint for 14, and in my experience, as this thread originally was supposed to be about, was about exterior self priming paint. Sure, probally works great on stucco, but on exterior wood in extreme weather conditions, mountain environments, It just doesn't work as well as using an exellent gripping/bonding primer like the pratt and lambert suprime wood primer, then a high quality 100% acrylic low lustre finish. You know, you guys give me alot of **** as well, so I think it's all fair game. Sorry if I do come across as a ****, but I talk the talk because I can walk the walk.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> You're right: no waterbased stain blocking on the market can block stains like oil. That's because my new formulation, with new tannin stain blocking technology, isn't on the market yet.


Well cool, I will check your product out when it hits the market. But why is it so many painters are afraid of using oil? For god's sake, painting IS messy, you can't be afraid of a little oil base.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Can we ship the hammer back to the amateur forum now? And the heavy metal forum? And the paint applicators above the inversion line forum? We dont seem to have a spot for someone of his unique skill set on this roster. Please designate for assignment.


heavy metal? you have me confused with someone else. i like hip hop.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

RPS said:


> This is a place to bounce ideas of from eachother. Get different ideas and learn from others and give advice. Obviously everyone in hear is passionate about what they do. You cant come here acting like a know it all and assume everybody is stupid. And from reading your post you have a lot to learn. And Im pretty sure I can paint circles around you.



I learned from one of the best house painters there is. Who knows maybe you can, and i'm really sorry that i seem to get to you so easily.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Hopefully you can bear with us sub-inversion layer painters. We have much to learn.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> Well cool, I will check your product out when it hits the market. But why is it so many painters are afraid of using oil? For god's sake, painting IS messy, you can't be afraid of a little oil base.


I don't think it's fear of oil, so much as the increasing difficulties surrounding oil base paints in general. They're constantly being reformulated to meet environmental restrictions, and reformulation often equals poor performance. Professionals also must contend with HO's who don't want oil used in or on their homes for health, odor or environmental reasons.

We all have to face the following: the coatings industry is moving toward 0% VOC. It's already down to 50g/l in SCAQMD (LA area), 100 g/l in many states, and national EPA of 250 g/l.

I'm seeing new substitutes for glycols and solvents coming out every week for the formulator. These will gradually make their way into VOC resins and result in high performance, 0% VOC paints for the commercial market.

If I predicted 15 years ago on this forum that virtually all new cars will be painted with low VOC waterborne basecoats, and they would be better than solventborne paints, how many would have believed me? That's what's happened, and we now have waterborne automotive clears. There's a new "liquid metal" waterborne being used on Mercedes cars with nano particle aluminum technology which not only performs better than solvent, it looks like no other car finish you've ever seen.

The tough part is that we are in a transitional period, and there's always Murphy's Law to contend with in times like these.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Hopefully you can bear with us sub-inversion layer painters. We have much to learn.


oh come on, that's getting old man. it's a different painting environment in big bear, we are above the inversion layer. so that means more uv ray exposure. so, you have to do a better quality paint job to last. if it's exterior wood painting, yes i do know alot. but stucco, commercial painting, maybe not as much as some other people. it's my environment, what i'm used to.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> I don't think it's fear of oil, so much as the increasing difficulties surrounding oil base paints in general. They're constantly being reformulated to meet environmental restrictions, and reformulation often equals poor performance. Professionals also must contend with HO's who don't want oil used in or on their homes for health, odor or environmental reasons.
> 
> We all have to face the following: the coatings industry is moving toward 0% VOC. It's already down to 50g/l in SCAQMD (LA area), 100 g/l in many states, and national EPA of 250 g/l.
> 
> ...


but there is one problem. oils are cheaper, how much is your new product gonna cost? A liscenced painter can buy the problem solver oil primer from me for $26.30 a gallon. I noticed these new, lower voc products work just as good, but the cost way more AND take longer to dry than the higher vocs.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

hammerheart14 said:


> oh come on, that's getting old man. it's a different painting environment in big bear, we are above the inversion layer. so that means more uv ray exposure. so, you have to do a better quality paint job to last. if it's exterior wood painting, yes i do know alot. but stucco, commercial painting, maybe not as much as some other people. it's my environment, what i'm used to.


Sorry Jared. I dont mean to come off all like I'm hatin on above inversion layer environments. We just dont get many painters/cabot dealers from up there. Most of them end up at www.paintabovetheinversionlayertalk.com.

We did have a painter from the north pole a couple of years ago but he was a much jollier fellow than ye.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Sorry Jared. I dont mean to come off all like I'm hatin on above inversion layer environments. We just dont get many painters/cabot dealers from up there. Most of them end up at www.paintabovetheinversionlayertalk.com.
> 
> We did have a painter from the north pole a couple of years ago but he was a much jollier fellow than ye.



cool, I will try to calm down abit. I can understand pissing people off, i have to remember not everyone's climates are the same. Different climates, different products, for exterior painting that is.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

hammerheart14 said:


> cool, I will try to calm down abit. I can understand pissing people off, i have to remember not everyone's climates are the same. Different climates, different products, for exterior painting that is.


Right on. Round off some of them funky corners and you'll fit right in. Painttalk is a breeding ground for misanthropy.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Oil vs. WB-cost?*



hammerheart14 said:


> but there is one problem. oils are cheaper, how much is your new product gonna cost? A liscenced painter can buy the problem solver oil primer from me for $26.30 a gallon. I noticed these new, lower voc products work just as good, but the cost way more AND take longer to dry than the higher vocs.


Yes, oil usually beats wb in gallon for gallon comparison, but the real test is solids against solids.

If an oil costs $26.30/gallon and has 30% solids, and a wb costs $40/gallon and has 60% solids, which is cheaper to use? In this example, the wb is cheaper. You also have to consider the quality of the solids (resin percentage, fillers, TiO2, etc). Always check your solids before you make a cost decision.

As far as dry time, at least in my new formulation, the problem wasn't too slow dry. It was too fast. I had to formulate it dry slow enough to allow for good open time, while allowing for sandability within 30-45 minutes. I made this happen with a non-VOC additive. Got my solids at 62%, and they're high quality solids. A real strong, 100% acrylic with the maximum amount of TiO2 I could squeeze in, not just a bunch of junk clay.

I also did something the big boy paint makers would never do. I included a very expensive wetting agent that wasn't really necessary. I put it in because I know it will wet out over oily and otherwise contaminated surfaces. No fish eyes, crawling, picture framing, or dewetting problems with this coating (in most cases). I didn't shave pennies when I formulated this coating. I kept in mind the problems encountered by the professional in the trenches, trying to build in as much fail safe quality as I could.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Yes, oil usually beats wb in gallon for gallon comparison, but the real test is solids against solids.
> 
> If an oil costs $26.30/gallon and has 30% solids, and a wb costs $40/gallon and has 60% solids, which is cheaper to use? In this example, the wb is cheaper. You also have to consider the quality of the solids (resin percentage, fillers, TiO2, etc). Always check your solids before you make a cost decision.
> 
> ...


I will always trust a chemist more when it comes to paint performance and info rather than most painters. So I have a question, in your opinion, do you think that lower voc STAINS can hold up longer and are better than higher voc stains? My experience has been higher vocs are better because of faster dry time, better penetration in the wood (which is the most important factor, imo) and better brushing capabilites. Also, I think that higher vocs give more uv protectants, your thoughts?


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Sorry Jared. I dont mean to come off all like I'm hatin on above inversion layer environments. We just dont get many painters/cabot dealers from up there. Most of them end up at www.paintabovetheinversionlayertalk.com.
> 
> We did have a painter from the north pole a couple of years ago but he was a much jollier fellow than ye.


still don't appreciate the sarcasm though.


----------



## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

hammerheart14 said:


> I don't know everything, but I know alot in my trade. I have painted for 17 years and sold paint for 14, and in my experience, as this thread originally was supposed to be about, was about exterior self priming paint. Sure, probally works great on stucco, but on exterior wood in extreme weather conditions, mountain environments, It just doesn't work as well as using an exellent gripping/bonding primer like the pratt and lambert suprime wood primer, then a high quality 100% acrylic low lustre finish. You know, you guys give me alot of **** as well, so I think it's all fair game. Sorry if I do come across as a ****, but I talk the talk because I can walk the walk.


Well, why use paint on exterior wood siding in the first place? Isn't that what solid stains are for?

And per the bleeding issue: Try a hybrid product - oil modified acrylic siding stain - fantastic stuff. :thumbsup:


----------



## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

hammerheart14 said:


> still don't appreciate the sarcasm though.


If it's coming from VP, expect nothing less :whistling2:

:thumbup:


----------



## RPS (May 13, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> I learned from one of the best house painters there is. Who knows maybe you can, and i'm really sorry that i seem to get to you so easily.


It's not that you get to me easy. I dont really care if I can paint circles around you to be honest. It's just that you come off like everyone is stupid. It's great that you're passionate about what you do, so are others. In my town theres a lot of idiot painters and people that think they are painters. That doesn't mean I assume everyone is like that in here. Tone it down a notch. This isnt competition.


----------



## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Oil Stain vs. WB Stain*



hammerheart14 said:


> I will always trust a chemist more when it comes to paint performance and info rather than most painters. So I have a question, in your opinion, do you think that lower voc STAINS can hold up longer and are better than higher voc stains? My experience has been higher vocs are better because of faster dry time, better penetration in the wood (which is the most important factor, imo) and better brushing capabilites. Also, I think that higher vocs give more uv protectants, your thoughts?


I can address what is possible with WB stains, not so much what is currently available on the market.

Penetration: this is a function of wetting. Good wetting is easy with oil. With water, you must reduce the surface tension with surfactants, and the good ones ain't cheap. Off the top of my head, I can think of two substrate wetters that have never failed to penetrate and wet out 100% into wood. Most paint makers won't use them-they're too expensive (so they think). The manufacturers of these additives have given up on the coatings market. They're sold into the pesticide and textile industry.

Brushability: oil is inherently better for brushing, but you can get wb coatings to brush out just as well if you take the time to combine the right kind and amounts of various rheology modifiers. Again, the high surface tension of water makes this more time consuming (expensive) to formulate. Is anyone doing this in wb stains? I don't know.

UV protection: I don't think UV has any direct relationship to VOC. UV is a function of pigment and binder resin. There are also additives for wb's that enhance UV protection. Do stain makers use these additives? Do they bother to choose more expensive UV resistant pigments for their wb stains? These are business and marketing decisions, not technical limitations.

Here's how it seems to work in the paint industry. Government sets new VOC goals, the industry protests that they can't meet them, government backs off a little, industry meets the reduced goal, government sets the standards a little higher, industry protests again, etc. Mix in a little politics, and the process continues. I've watched a certain solvent (EB, aka butyl cellosolv) get classified as a HAPS, then, magically, it isn't HAPS! How did that happen? The manufacturer lobbied congress.

Yes, it's possible to make a wb stain as good, likely better, in all respects, than an oil. Is anybody doing it? Probably not. The government isn't making them. Maybe public demand for lower VOC coatings will motivate manufacturers.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> *"Wood homes in any environment should be stained and not painted, unless of course someone had the bright idea of painting it previously. "*
> 
> Please define what this means. Log homes. Cedar sided homes. T-111 sided homes?


In a nutshell, if it's wood stain it. Log homes, stain them. Cedar sided homes, stain them. T-111 sided homes, stain them. The only times I would paint exterior wood is if it's already been painted or if the HO wants some sheen to it. Usually brick moulding or things of that nature. Otherwise, I advise against it.



hammerheart14 said:


> Bla, bla, bla...in extreme weather conditions...yadda, yadda, yadda.


You keep bringing up extreme weather conditions, but ignore my questions about it. Explain what you mean and please leave UV out of it.


----------



## kerk (Oct 14, 2009)

hammerheart14 said:


> I don't know everything, but I know alot in my trade. I have painted for 17 years and sold paint for 14, and in my experience, as this thread originally was supposed to be about, was about exterior self priming paint. Sure, probally works great on stucco, but on exterior wood in extreme weather conditions, mountain environments, It just doesn't work as well as using an exellent gripping/bonding primer like the pratt and lambert suprime wood primer, then a high quality 100% acrylic low lustre finish. You know, you guys give me alot of **** as well, so I think it's all fair game. Sorry if I do come across as a ****, but I talk the talk because I can walk the walk.


Again, just a reminder........there is 'no' difference between paint and so called 'self priming' paint.

If I am wrong, help me eat crow by telling me 'what ingredient' creates the difference.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> In a nutshell, if it's wood stain it. Log homes, stain them. Cedar sided homes, stain them. T-111 sided homes, stain them. The only times I would paint exterior wood is if it's already been painted or if the HO wants some sheen to it. Usually brick moulding or things of that nature. Otherwise, I advise against it.
> 
> 
> 
> You keep bringing up extreme weather conditions, but ignore my questions about it. Explain what you mean and please leave UV out of it.


hey, that wasn't my quote!


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

:blink: :lol: 





Wow... just... wow


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> :blink: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what i am saying, i painter, is this quote was not me:


"Bla, bla, bla...in extreme weather conditions...yadda, yadda, yadda."

That's all man. I agree with you.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> Sorry, but I'm not a troll and I know my paint. When it comes to exterior painting, in Big Bear, you ALWAYS use a primer first. When you get *extreme temperature change*, snow, and high uv, primer is recommended. Sure, maybe not for stucco houses in san bernardino, but where I live, priming is neccessary, at least with my fourteen year experience and my father's fourty years painting experience.


 


hammerheart14 said:


> actaully, quite the opposite. i have been involved in the paint world for a long time. and like someone said before, stains work much better for wood homes in *extreme environments*. much better than paints.





hammerheart14 said:


> I don't know everything, but I know alot in my trade. I have painted for 17 years and sold paint for 14, and in my experience, as this thread originally was supposed to be about, was about exterior self priming paint. Sure, probally works great on stucco, but on exterior wood *in extreme weather conditions*, mountain environments, It just doesn't work as well as using an exellent gripping/bonding primer like the pratt and lambert suprime wood primer, then a high quality 100% acrylic low lustre finish. You know, you guys give me alot of **** as well, so I think it's all fair game. Sorry if I do come across as a ****, but I talk the talk because I can walk the walk.


:wallbash:


----------



## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

i said:


> :wallbash:


That's some funny $hit right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank You Ipainter:notworthy:


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> :wallbash:


taking my qoutes out of context, what a ****! staining is BEST for exterior wood, but if you HAVE TO PAINT, and the surface is not in great shape, i recommend using a primer. that is what i was saying. always STAIN if you can. is that simple enough?


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

*"staining is BEST for exterior wood"*

Really? My cedar lap sided house was last painted 11 years ago (by me). Not one spot is peeling. It will get repainted this summer for a color change, but it still has a good 3-4 years left.

I can get that kind of life from stain and it will look as good as the current paint job does, assuming my siding wasn't painted? 

Let me help :no:


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> *"staining is BEST for exterior wood"*
> 
> Really? My cedar lap sided house was last painted 11 years ago (by me). Not one spot is peeling. It will get repainted this summer for a color change, but it still has a good 3-4 years left.
> 
> ...


what kind of exposure does it get? is there alot of trees, shading, ect? are you above 4,000 feet, where you get more uv rays? does it snow more than ten feet a winter? once again, i am thinking in big bear terms. where i live, yes, stains are EASIER TO MAINTAIN than paint, no scraping, sanding, priming. paints may last a little longer, but it costs more to redo vs stains. so, sorry for not being detailed.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> My cedar lap sided house was last painted 11 years ago (by me). Not one spot is peeling. It will get repainted this summer for a color change, but it still has a good 3-4 years left.


Wow, that's awesome. That's the longest success I've heard of. Did you have "ideal" conditions? (weather and substrate) I'm also curious about your weather conditions. They must not be _extreme weather conditions_ in an _extreme environment_.

Here, in _extreme weather conditions_, in Wisconsin there never seems to be "ideal" conditions. That's one reason I favor stains over paints. 




hammerheart14 said:


> taking my qoutes out of context, what a ****! staining is BEST for exterior wood, *but if you HAVE TO PAINT, and the surface is not in great shape, i recommend using a primer. that is what i was saying. *always STAIN if you can. is that simple enough?


This is different from what you were saying here.



hammerheart14 said:


> WARNING!!! WARNING!!! There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint, UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!! *EVERYTHING ELSE NEEDS PRIMER!!!!! If you are going to paint, ALWAYS use a primer first.* Coem on guys!!!


First it's "ALWAYS prime!!!!" Then it's, "if you have to paint (and not anything but exterior oil stain) AND the surface isn't in great shape..."

Dude, if you keep your story straight, your argument might have a little more strength. 

17 yrs painting and 14 yrs in retail? So does that add up to 31 yrs? or just the 14 yrs experience you keep referring to? Your math confuses me. And does your fathers 40 yrs experience also give you 40 yrs experience? You must think so since you keep bringing it up. If that's how you figure it out, I have WAY more experience than you. My former boss's dad had 50 yrs, my former boss had 35, a former coworker had 25, not to mention the yrs of experience from other coworkers that have come and gone.... I'm losing count. Whatever it is just add another 13 on top of it from my experience. All because yrs of experience completely coincides knowledge one gains.

Also, "_There is no such thing as a self priming exterior paint,_ _UNLESS, it's really an exterior oil stain!!!!_!" So I brought up using latex exterior stain and not priming. Since exterior latex stain is NOT exterior oil stain, by your statement it should have been primed.

I fking love semantics, don't you?


I still want to know what you consider extreme weather conditions!!!

That was fun. For a little while there, I thought you weren't going to play anymore.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

I forgot, if the 17 yrs of painting and 14 yrs of managing a retail paint store are during the same time period, isn't that a conflict of interests?A guy I used to work with applied at SW. They told him he would have to terminate his account and stop painting. I know I'd be pissed if I found out a paint store employee was taking leads that may have otherwise been offered to me.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> Wow, that's awesome. That's the longest success I've heard of. Did you have "ideal" conditions? (weather and substrate) I'm also curious about your weather conditions. They must not be _extreme weather conditions_ in an _extreme environment_.
> 
> Here, in _extreme weather conditions_, in Wisconsin there never seems to be "ideal" conditions. That's one reason I favor stains over paints.
> 
> ...


Ok , first off, extreme weather conditions is big bear lake, california, you ever been here? number two, my VERY FIRST statement were i said always PRIME, was an overstatement. i stick by the fact that unless the area is in great shape, prime first if your going to paint. i agree, stains are better for wood than paint. latex stains don't soak into the wood as well as oils do. they don't work last as well AND DO PEEL when it fails, unlike oil stain done properly. they don't need primers ofcourse. i have worked in paint store for 14 years, since i was 17. when i was 13, i started to paint a few days a month with my father, and have done so since then. there is no conflict of interest since i only work 2 times a month with my father. i also do not recommend him to to conflict of interest. but screw anyone who does that that. he has been the most loyal customer to th estore since 1992, even before i stared working there.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> Wow, that's awesome. That's the longest success I've heard of. Did you have "ideal" conditions? (weather and substrate) I'm also curious about your weather conditions. They must not be _extreme weather conditions_ in an _extreme environment_.
> 
> Here, in _extreme weather conditions_, in Wisconsin there never seems to be "ideal" conditions. That's one reason I favor stains over paints.
> 
> ...


Ok, first off, extreme weather conditions is big bear lake, california, you ever been here? number two, my VERY FIRST statement were i said always PRIME, was an exaggerated overstatement. i stick by the fact that unless the area is in great shape, prime first if your going to paint. i agree, stains are better for wood than paint. latex stains don't soak into the wood as well as oils do. they don't work as well AND DO PEEL when it fails, unlike oil stains done properly. they don't need primers ofcourse. i have worked in paint stores for 14 years, since i was 17. when i was 13, i started to paint a few days a month with my father, and have done so since then. there is no conflict of interest since i only work 2 times a month with my father. i also do not recommend him due to conflict of interest, even though he has been the most loyal customer to the store since 1992, even before i stared working there. we can play, we can play!!!!


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

i said:


> I forgot, if the 17 yrs of painting and 14 yrs of managing a retail paint store are during the same time period, isn't that a conflict of interests?A guy I used to work with applied at SW. They told him he would have to terminate his account and stop painting. I know I'd be pissed if I found out a paint store employee was taking leads that may have otherwise been offered to me.


oce again, as stated before you don't know me or anything about me or what goes on where i work, so stop making false accusations!


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

hammerheart14 said:


> Ok, first off, extreme weather conditions is big bear lake, california, you ever been here? number two, my VERY FIRST statement were i said always PRIME, was an overstatement. i stick by the fact that unless the area is in great shape, prime first if your going to paint. i agree, stains are better for wood than paint. latex stains don't soak into the wood as well as oils do. they don't work last as well AND DO PEEL when it fails, unlike oil stain done properly. they don't need primers ofcourse, i have worked in paint store for 14 years, since i was 17. when i was 13, i started to paint a few days a month with my father, and have done so since then. there is no conflict of interest since i only work 2 times a month with my father. i also do not recommend him to to conflict of interest. but screw anyone who does that that. he has been the most loyal customer to th estore since 1992, even before i stared working there.


 Easy there, killer. No need for name calling.



hammerheart14 said:


> Ok, first off, extreme weather conditions is big bear lake, california, you ever been here? number two, my VERY FIRST statement were i said always PRIME, was an exaggerated overstatement. i stick by the fact that unless the area is in great shape, prime first if your going to paint. i agree, stains are better for wood than paint. latex stains don't soak into the wood as well as oils do. they don't work as well AND DO PEEL when it fails, unlike oil stains done properly. they don't need primers ofcourse. i have worked in paint stores for 14 years, since i was 17. when i was 13, i started to paint a few days a month with my father, and have done so since then. there is no conflict of interest since i only work 2 times a month with my father. i also do not recommend him due to conflict of interest, even though he has been the most loyal customer to the store since 1992, even before i stared working there. we can play, !


So good it had to be posted twice!



hammerheart14 said:


> oce again, as stated before you don't know me or anything about me or what goes on where i work, so stop making false accusations!


I was just asking. Sheesh:001_unsure:


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

You both need to take it down a notch, and watch the language please.


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

RCP said:


> You both need to take it down a notch, and watch the language please.


Thanks Mom :whistling2: :thumbup:


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Thanks Mom :whistling2: :thumbup:


That's Miss Chris to you!


----------



## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I never had a school teacher who looked like that....


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

This is looking more and more like a painters anonymous meeting.....ok i'll start.

Hi my name is Drew, im 29 years old and have been in the painting industry for 14 years now. I painted for a little while until I realized how much I hated, the wasps, ladders, roofs, sunburn...etc etc. I was given the opportunity to work in a store owned by my fathers friend, which I hated less than painting so I stuck with it. I learned a lot, and also screwed up a lot....thankfully the owner was awesome so I didnt get fired. That puts me where I am today....5 years into store ownership.


Oh, I worked with my dad too in the summers. He was a builder/framer......worst job ever!! I figured im working with Dad, it'll be a cake walk.....WRONG. I picked up nails for my pay at .01 a piece, starting when I was about 12. I didnt get to swing a hammer until I was 14. Even then, I did all the nasty crappy work that nobody else wanted to do....thanks pop's.


----------



## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

RCP said:


> You both need to take it down a notch, and watch the language please.


Did I really have it up a notch? I thought my responses were calm and (for the most part) civil. I don't think I name called or even "yelled" for that matter. 

Guilty of trolling. I trolled, he bit, I laughed. Sorry for the disruption.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

*"Wow, that's awesome. That's the longest success I've heard of. Did you have "ideal" conditions? (weather and substrate) I'm also curious about your weather conditions. They must not be extreme weather conditions in an extreme environment.

Here, in extreme weather conditions, in Wisconsin there never seems to be "ideal" conditions. That's one reason I favor stains over paints. "*

Must be a regional thing. My guess is there are more wood sided painted house in my area (Portland, OR) than there are stained houses. I seriously can't remember the last time I stained or painted a stained house.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> This is looking more and more like a painters anonymous meeting.....ok i'll start.
> 
> Hi my name is Drew, im 29 years old and have been in the painting industry for 14 years now. I painted for a little while until I realized how much I hated, the wasps, ladders, roofs, sunburn...etc etc. I was given the opportunity to work in a store owned by my fathers friend, which I hated less than painting so I stuck with it. I learned a lot, and also screwed up a lot....thankfully the owner was awesome so I didnt get fired. That puts me where I am today....5 years into store ownership.
> 
> ...


----------



## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

[/QUOTE]It built character though,right?[/QUOTE]



Doesn't everything? :thumbup:


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

RCP said:


> You both need to take it down a notch, and watch the language please.


yeah, sorry about that. i edited my post and omitted my bad language, even though it's blocked out anyways........


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> This is looking more and more like a painters anonymous meeting.....ok i'll start.
> 
> Hi my name is Drew, im 29 years old and have been in the painting industry for 14 years now. I painted for a little while until I realized how much I hated, the wasps, ladders, roofs, sunburn...etc etc. I was given the opportunity to work in a store owned by my fathers friend, which I hated less than painting so I stuck with it. I learned a lot, and also screwed up a lot....thankfully the owner was awesome so I didnt get fired. That puts me where I am today....5 years into store ownership.
> 
> ...


you and i are very alike in our life's circumstances, i give you my nod of respect. i hope to own the business i work in one day.


----------



## reynoldspainting (Jun 12, 2010)

*Duration*

still requires priming so why use a $45 per gallon primer except the color is right. SW says if there is tannin bleeding to use A100 oil primer if a 2nd coat doesn't work.

I would rather use a specific primer than a multiple use paint product as I prefer a computer printer over scanner/fax/printers. 

Why prime with Duration when you need a 2nd (or 3rd) coat?


----------



## reynoldspainting (Jun 12, 2010)

VanDamme said:


> *"Wow, that's awesome. That's the longest success I've heard of. Did you have "ideal" conditions? (weather and substrate) I'm also curious about your weather conditions. They must not be extreme weather conditions in an extreme environment.
> 
> Here, in extreme weather conditions, in Wisconsin there never seems to be "ideal" conditions. That's one reason I favor stains over paints. "*
> 
> Must be a regional thing. My guess is there are more wood sided painted house in my area (Portland, OR) than there are stained houses. I seriously can't remember the last time I stained or painted a stained house.


Tell me about it...I live on Lake Superior (northern Wisconsin)


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

reynoldspainting said:


> still requires priming so why use a $45 per gallon primer except the color is right. SW says if there is tannin bleeding to use A100 oil primer if a 2nd coat doesn't work.
> 
> I would rather use a specific primer than a multiple use paint product as I prefer a computer printer over scanner/fax/printers.
> 
> Why prime with Duration when you need a 2nd (or 3rd) coat?


 Depends if its spot priming on a repaint or NC. Of course you will use oil for tannins. 

I have seen this paint perform very well on ocean front homes. East Coast of NC.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

CBCo said:


> Aura is a Lowes product I believe, and Duration is a Sherwin Williams product.
> 
> :no: :blink: and Behr is a Benjamin Moore product and Valspar a PPG :whistling2:


----------



## Baiter Painting (Jun 20, 2010)

I've been painting 30 years and always used oil primer intil now. I don't care if it's bare wood Duration will stick and hold with no problems. Cuts your time in half.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

edit... nvm


----------



## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

VanDamme said:


> *"Wood homes in any environment should be stained and not painted, unless of course someone had the bright idea of painting it previously. "*
> 
> Please define what this means. Log homes. Cedar sided homes. T-111 sided homes?


And,......don't forget all the ship-lap, t&g, planed smooth siding homes that were built for the past few hundred years and originally painted...........


Casey


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

Baiter Painting said:


> I've been painting 30 years and always used oil primer intil now. I don't care if it's bare wood Duration will stick and hold with no problems. Cuts your time in half.


I'm not questioning if Duration works or not......I'm old school and prime bare wood, but can you tell me how many years you have observed Duration applied over raw or bare wood?

Would you paint new wood siding (say T-111) with it without priming?

Just curious.


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

VanDamme said:


> I'm not questioning if Duration works or not......I'm old school and prime bare wood, but can you tell me how many years you have observed Duration applied over raw or bare wood?
> 
> Would you paint new wood siding (say T-111) with it without priming?
> 
> Just curious.


Ive observed Duration now for about 6-7 years which is about how long ago it came out. Its done great with NO problems. Yes redwood, cedar, and water stains still need a straight prime. I also would probably prime completely new and bare wood but dont have that type of job too often. I like Duration for the older houses that we scrape and have some paint and some bare wood, does great.


----------



## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

capitalcity painting said:


> Ive observed Duration now for about 6-7 years which is about how long ago it came out. Its done great with NO problems. Yes redwood, cedar, and water stains still need a straight prime. I also would probably prime completely new and bare wood but dont have that type of job too often. I like Duration for the older houses that we scrape and have some paint and some bare wood, does great.


Thanks! Never used it and was just wondering. Did it take some getting use to applying "paint' over bare wood?


----------



## reynoldspainting (Jun 12, 2010)

Baiter Painting said:


> I've been painting 30 years and always used oil primer intil now. I don't care if it's bare wood Duration will stick and hold with no problems. Cuts your time in half.


That I disagree with. In half?

It still needs two coats(spot priming). You still need a seal/primer coat and a finish coat. It is designed to do 2 top coats in one coat but needs to be primed.

I would rather use a primer designed to seal and then a thick coat of duration. There is cuts the job (after priming) almost in half.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

reynoldspainting said:


> That I disagree with. In half?
> 
> It still needs two coats(spot priming). You still need a seal/primer coat and a finish coat. It is designed to do 2 top coats in one coat but needs to be primed.
> 
> I would rather use a primer designed to seal and then a thick coat of duration. There is cuts the job (after priming) almost in half.


 You are still gonna have to spot prime with Duration in many applications, especially with gloss.


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

reynoldspainting said:


> That I disagree with. In half?
> 
> It still needs two coats(spot priming). You still need a seal/primer coat and a finish coat. It is designed to do 2 top coats in one coat but needs to be primed.
> 
> I would rather use a primer designed to seal and then a thick coat of duration. There is cuts the job (after priming) almost in half.


No, it is designed to prime and paint in one with twice the mil thickness as other paints.


----------



## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

VanDamme said:


> Thanks! Never used it and was just wondering. Did it take some getting use to applying "paint' over bare wood?


Good question, I guess thats why I dont have so much of a problem with using Duration over bare wood in the first place. It came out shortly after I started painting and didnt have it ingrained in my head that I HAD to oil prime all bare wood. It is gooood stuff. The only time I dont use it is if I need a really smooth look. I use super paint for doors,etc.


----------



## hammerheart14 (May 29, 2010)

capitalcity painting said:


> Good question, I guess thats why I dont have so much of a problem with using Duration over bare wood in the first place. It came out shortly after I started painting and didnt have it ingrained in my head that I HAD to oil prime all bare wood. It is gooood stuff. The only time I dont use it is if I need a really smooth look. I use super paint for doors,etc.


I am sure glad my Dad hammered it into my head to oil prime redwood, cedar, prime over previous oil stained wood and varnish, log oil. i wouldn't have had so many thankful customers. glad I listened. sorry, but for those cases, you need a primer.


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

ParagonVA said:


> I agree, although I have not used the Aura ext. yet. Duration kicks ass, and it _is_ self-priming, and around 15 bucks cheaper than Aura.


You will find the spread rate on Aura is significantly greater then Duration. $15 is nothing when you get extra square feet out of the same gallon. Large condo project we did. Specified Duration. First phase, 300 gallons. Second phase identical color, prep and footprint 180 gallons Aura.


----------

