# kilz max!!!



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

So I have always been all about oil and shellac for really sealing up wood and for its sandability. I decided to try the kilz max after reading a bit about it here on another thread and boy am I glad I did.

I did a little playing around with it this afternoon in my shop and here's just a couple of my findings. 

First off.. it doesn't penetrate quite as well as oil but it sticks so well, I don't think it needs to.

I tried it first on just a chunk of 2x4. It brushed on pretty nice and actually levels out really nice which surprised me because its heavy bodied. I let it dry about an hour and then took my random orbit sander with a 120grit disc and went to town on it and NO GUMMING!!! Usually water based (or oil sometimes) gums right up under the load of a sander. Impressed so far.

Next I brushed a little bit onto a scrap of lexan which if you're not familiar with, its basically a higher grade of Plexiglas made from polycarbonate. The stuff they make bullet proof glass from. Very smooth and glossy. It stuck pretty damn good with no sanding or etching. I can scratch it off with my nail but still pretty impressive for a water based product from a box store.

Next thing I did was to prime a plywood panel for my built in cabinet that I'm building for my laundry room. Put it on pretty heavy, waited an hour, and took the sander to it again. Sanded great again. Powder.

Still putting it through the ringer but so far I'm in love. I've put some on a nice fresh fall off of a cedar deck board. Still gotta see how thats gonna go. But even without the stain blocking I would still use this product as a main go to for sure. Here's a couple pics. 



















Powder from the sanding bag! 









Clean sandpaper! 








Powder on the glove from the panel

Sorry about the sideways pics...took them with my android and I guess I can't flip the orientation in the android app.


----------



## deluxe (Nov 30, 2008)

good to know. Thanks. Will give it a go myself


----------



## South-FL-Painter (Jan 17, 2012)

Thank you for a feedback.I will give it a shot too.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

What would you use it for?

...


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> What would you use it for?
> 
> ...



priming things


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> priming things


Priming for kilz top coats?

...


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

smakmauz said:


> priming things


What types of things? The Lexan did not take. :jester:


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Priming for kilz top coats?
> 
> ...


No...what exactly are you trying to get at. come out with it instead of beating around the bush. I have no patients for passive aggressive behavior.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

Workaholic said:


> What types of things? The Lexan did not take. :jester:



all types of things. cabinets, brick, cinder, spot priming repairs, putty, I think its just great to have a water based product that you can use to level wood grain if you want a really smooth top coat.

The lexan test was just that. I wasn't actually expecting it to stick. but how hard a I have to scrape with my finger nail gives an idea of its adhesion power. Most products fail that test with the exception of shellac. shellac does fairly well. you can still scratch it off but it takes a LOT more pressure.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

smakmauz said:


> all types of things. cabinets, brick, cinder, spot priming repairs, putty, I think its just great to have a water based product that you can use to level wood grain if you want a really smooth top coat.
> 
> The lexan test was just that. I wasn't actually expecting it to stick. but how hard a I have to scrape with my finger nail gives an idea of its adhesion power. Most products fail that test with the exception of shellac. shellac does fairly well. you can still scratch it off but it takes a LOT more pressure.


Thanks Was curious to your needs and expectations for the product. I have not used that particular product but have used other kilz wb in the past.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

Workaholic said:


> Thanks Was curious to your needs and expectations for the product. I have not used that particular product but have used other kilz wb in the past.


I have used the kilz 2 which in my opinion is only worth the can they put it in but I like the regular oil based kilz and the odorless ok. Not my favorite but good enough in a pinch. Haven't tried the premium or that other oil based one but I'm sure they're probably ok. z-prime plus is my favorite oil but it can be hard to find...at least here in seattle. 

This kilz max uses a water based epoxy resin as opposed to alkyd or acrylic or the hybrids which I thought was interesting. I think SW has something like that in their industrial line but I'm sure its a lot more expensive.


----------



## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

Have you tried it over stains?Kilz2 is about worthless as a stain killer just wondering how this would work.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

cdaniels said:


> Have you tried it over stains?Kilz2 is about worthless as a stain killer just wondering how this would work.


I haven't really put it through the ringer on stains yet but I did put some on some tanic cedar with some pretty promising results. Not sure on it yet though ....I have to put it outside and let it get some weather to see if it will bleed.


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

smakmauz said:


> I have used the kilz 2 which in my opinion is only worth the can they put it in but I like the regular oil based kilz and the odorless ok. Not my favorite but good enough in a pinch. Haven't tried the premium or that other oil based one but I'm sure they're probably ok. z-prime plus is my favorite oil but it can be hard to find...at least here in seattle.
> 
> This kilz max uses a water based epoxy resin as opposed to alkyd or acrylic or the hybrids which I thought was interesting. I think SW has something like that in their industrial line but I'm sure its a lot more expensive.


About the only kilz I use is the oil but have tried the kilz2 and the kilz pro-x, maybe I will give this one a shot some time.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

Yeah, I hadn't used kilz in a really long time because I found the z-prime and bin for all my priming needs but I decided to give this one a shot and I'm glad i did. Using it again today on some metal flex conduit and it stuck really well. Brushed on like oil


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> No...what exactly are you trying to get at. come out with it instead of beating around the bush. I have no patients for passive aggressive behavior.


Define passive aggressive?

Usually coatings are designed to go over their own primers. Note the product data pages for recommended primers. I'm just trying to figure out why you would need to go around that. Most manufactures have primers that have the same results as you have mentioned about killz. Typically the painter goes outside of the specification over a couple of bucks

No biggie didn't mean to test your patience. 
...


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

manufacturer specs huh... If you believe what the manufacturers tell you, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you :thumbup:

none of the paint companies around have anything like this stuff. try to sand most latex primer with a sander and it gums up the paper almost instantly. I'd like to see if you could recommend a couple to compare that don't come from sherwin williams. I'd be happy to try them out.

If you wanna stick with one brand for your paints and primers, be my guest but I like to leave my options open for better products.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

smakmauz said:


> manufacturer specs huh... If you believe what the manufacturers tell you, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you :thumbup:
> 
> none of the paint companies around have anything like this stuff. try to sand most latex primer with a sander and it gums up the paper almost instantly. I'd like to see if you could recommend a couple to compare that don't come from sherwin williams. I'd be happy to try them out.
> 
> If you wanna stick with one brand for your paints and primers, be my guest but I like to leave my options open for better products.


Relax there cowboy.... There are plenty of wb primers out there that powder up nicely.

Pat


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

PatsPainting said:


> Relax there cowboy.... There are plenty of wb primers out there that powder up nicely.
> 
> Pat


Examples? Please? Pretty Please? 

I'm looking for the all in one package that I have recently enjoyed with this kilz max. dries fast, durable, brushes out nice, great adhesion, great hide, nice flat finish for the top coat to stick to, sands beautifully.

I'm not saying there isn't something else out there like this but if there is, I haven't found it.


----------



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

smakmauz said:


> Examples? Please? Pretty Please?
> 
> I'm looking for the all in one package that I have recently enjoyed with this kilz max. dries fast, durable, brushes out nice, great adhesion, great hide, nice flat finish for the top coat to stick to, sands beautifully.
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't something else out there like this but if there is, I haven't found it.


Post 55 of this thread is one - it might not dry as fast as others but it's a beauty of a primer. 

Pat


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> Examples? Please? Pretty Please?
> 
> I'm looking for the all in one package that I have recently enjoyed with this kilz max. dries fast, durable, brushes out nice, great adhesion, great hide, nice flat finish for the top coat to stick to, sands beautifully.
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't something else out there like this but if there is, I haven't found it.


Benjamin Moore Superior Primer would be my first choice, from Sherwin Williams would be Wall & Wood.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

PatsPainting said:


> Post 55 of this thread is one - it might not dry as fast as others but it's a beauty of a primer.
> 
> Pat


yeah, I have heard about the advance but I haven't tried it because the recoat and dry time is just too damn long. There is a full acrylic product here in the northwest from Miller paint that is super tough like an oil but it drys real quick.

I'll get to trying the advance eventually I'm sure.

got anything else?


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Benjamin Moore Superior Primer would be my first choice, from Sherwin Williams would be Wall & Wood.


Superior... I haven't heard of that one. Is that in their commercial line? I've used the fresh start oil and wb primers...wasn't impressed.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> Superior... I haven't heard of that one. Is that in their commercial line? I've used the fresh start oil and wb primers...wasn't impressed.


No. It's part of the fresh start line.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> No. It's part of the fresh start line.


Ahh...yeah I used that all-purpose one. pretty good, but not for what they charge for it. I think its close to $40 gal here unless your a BM contractor

I haven't seen that superior before. Have you tried the kilz max yet to compare?

Also have you ever seen z-prime, z-prime plus, or z-prime II in your area? if you can get it, you should try it.


----------



## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Zinsser primers.:yes:


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Vista paint primezall has great qualities, adhesion, powder up, sheen retention etc. 

I didn't give fresh start a fair shake at 1st. Been very impressed with it. 

Pat, gonna have to try your preferred primer.

...


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> manufacturer specs huh... If you believe what the manufacturers tell you, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you :thumbup:.


Not interested in a bridge, but thank you. 

Yes, I believe in paint specs, it has saved my azz a few times. 

When paints are tested, they are tested by a system that was created by the manufacture. Primer, top coat etc. Like bm fresh start, with regal select. Not kills with regal. Manufactures can give a rip about their competition other than sales, so they are not going to test those systems. They leave that to the rookies in the field. 

Have you ever met a chemist from a paint manufacturer? Their fun to talk too, kinda of amazing the test they put their coating through. I seem to trust the professionals in the areas where I am not. 

No biggie you fly your own ship, I'm not trying to be your captain. 

Have a good profitable week. :thumbsup:

...


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

mudbone said:


> Zinsser primers.:yes:


 The 123 is pretty good.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Vista paint primezall has great qualities, adhesion, powder up, sheen retention etc.
> 
> I didn't give fresh start a fair shake at 1st. Been very impressed with it.
> 
> ...


I've recently fell in love with fresh start. Actually my love affair started about a year ago although we were flirting for years.

I used to think I liked 123 but I realized she was heavy on the promises but wouldn't show up when I needed her the most.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> Examples? Please? Pretty Please?
> 
> I'm looking for the all in one package that I have recently enjoyed with this kilz max. dries fast, durable, brushes out nice, great adhesion, great hide, nice flat finish for the top coat to stick to, sands beautifully.
> 
> I'm not saying there isn't something else out there like this but if there is, I haven't found it.


BIN Advanced is supposed to blow the doors off Kilz Max (and bin in most categories) according to the independent studies I saw on a nice PowerPoint propaganda piece put out by Zinsser. You and me are just gonna have to see when it comes out. 
BM 046 superior is very good. $29.99 around these parts. 
Smart prime and / or 123 plus (same stuff different label) are both very good for all your criteria.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Yeah, I wonder.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

KM is surprisingly good as an interior primer (it is interior only).

I like 046 as an all purpose int/ext but haven't found it to excel on interior. Dries slow, stays sticky and loads abrasives (doesn't sand to powder).


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

post deleted by author - 046 is "BM Superior Primer", not the original Fresh Start


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Not interested in a bridge, but thank you.
> 
> Yes, I believe in paint specs, it has saved my azz a few times.
> 
> ...


No rookies here. I would never experiment on a job. Just in my shop. 

If you're a smart manufacturer that actually cares about putting out a good product and not just money (like SW) then your going to test your product with everything that your competition has. This is what drives innovation and profit alike. I've never met a truly good painter that doesn't use a wide variety of products to suit the job at hand. These guys around here that go around dressed all in Sherwin Williams just crack me up. I call them zombies. They couldn't give a rats ass about the job once they're done with it. I have a personal warranty on all my jobs and have never had a call back on anything. Not saying that some of SW's products aren't decent but not enough to warrant selling my soul to them.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

Damon T said:


> BIN Advanced is supposed to blow the doors off Kilz Max (and bin in most categories) according to the independent studies I saw on a nice PowerPoint propaganda piece put out by Zinsser. You and me are just gonna have to see when it comes out.
> BM 046 superior is very good. $29.99 around these parts.
> Smart prime and / or 123 plus (same stuff different label) are both very good for all your criteria.


I haven't heard about Bin advanced... I'll have to Google that and see what that's all about.

I've seen the 123 plus but have been hesitant to try it because I loath the regular 123 so much. Is it drastically different?


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> No rookies here. I would never experiment on a job. Just in my shop.
> 
> If you're a smart manufacturer that actually cares about putting out a good product and not just money (like SW) then your going to test your product with everything that your competition has. This is what drives innovation and profit alike. I've never met a truly good painter that doesn't use a wide variety of products to suit the job at hand. These guys around here that go around dressed all in Sherwin Williams just crack me up. I call them zombies. They couldn't give a rats ass about the job once they're done with it. I have a personal warranty on all my jobs and have never had a call back on anything. Not saying that some of SW's products aren't decent but not enough to warrant selling my soul to them.


I like my Sherwin Williams representatives aswell as their store employees I do business with. They are very well trained within our industry and in their products. At least the ones I deal with. 

I too use a wide range of coatings too. I just believe in following specs, I recognize some don't. 

Have a good day

...


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I like my Sherwin Williams representatives aswell as their store employees I do business with. They are very well trained within our industry and in their products. At least the ones I deal with.
> 
> I too use a wide range of coatings too. I just believe in following specs, I recognize some don't.
> 
> ...


Right on man. Its all good. I wish I could say the same thing about the SW people in my area. Nice enough people, just dumber than a box 'o' rocks and don't know their product.

No harsh feelings, just good debating

Take care
Ron


----------



## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

There is not much on BIN Advanced that I can find online....just that it is synthetic shellac....partially because of the Chinese lac beetle shortages... I am very interested because I happen to love BIN....

As for acrylic primers, I like California's Prime Choice. Sands to a powder in about 1-2 hours. It's a great undercoater for cabs and such.
Insulx (or BM, dunno anymore) Aqualock is good for the price, mid 20s....

Just used Killz Premium primer (HO had a can to use up) it was...less than premium in adhesion and not sandable in 2+ hours on a bone dry day with ventilation. Sorta like 123, ok for for some stuff and for 18.99.


----------



## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

smakmauz said:


> I haven't heard about Bin advanced... I'll have to Google that and see what that's all about.
> 
> I've seen the 123 plus but have been hesitant to try it because I loath the regular 123 so much. Is it drastically different?


If you hate 123 you probably won't love 123 plus. It does hide water stains well. I'm not convinced on tannin bleed yet. I like it as a general go to primer. 

There's almost nothing on bin advanced out yet. They didn't even have it on their website lAst time I checked. 

I am friends with the regional Zinsser / RustOleum rep, so I can at least confirm that it does exist and will be released soon.


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

I did some more work with the max yesterday and I have to report that it did pretty well on some pretty good tanin bleed on some cedar 2x6 that I was putting up still bled through a little after one coat but I'm thinking it will probably block it completely after another light coat...we'll see. So far I still really like it though...it just grabs so nice and has such a nice flat finish. So many primers out there dry with a sheen and that has always bugged the crap out of me because they don't grab paint as well when brushing and rolling. 

Still haven't gotten to try it on stains yet.


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Always looking for good sandable waterborne primers. Tried the KILZ Max on a few surfaces. Blocked tannins well on cedar shingle. For me it didn't sand well at all. Instantly clogged the paper in 150, 220, and 400.
I was using a Festool RTS400 (rectangular orbital). Tried low and high 
speeds, no pressure. The KM did sand, but not easily, and it clogged.
It reminds me most of Zinsser Smart Prime. That's what it feels like after drying. I think Smart Prime sands better, though.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

more_prep said:


> Always looking for good sandable waterborne primers. Tried the KILZ Max on a few surfaces. Blocked tannins well on cedar shingle. For me it didn't sand well at all. Instantly clogged the paper in 150, 220, and 400.
> I was using a Festool RTS400 (rectangular orbital). Tried low and high
> speeds, no pressure. The KM did sand, but not easily, and it clogged.
> It reminds me most of Zinsser Smart Prime. That's what it feels like after drying. I think Smart Prime sands better, though.


You understand that Kilz Max is a interior primer, no?


----------



## smakmauz (Feb 17, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> You understand that Kilz Max is a interior primer, no?


Well I'll be horn-swoggled!! Your right! Holy sh*t ....I can't believe I didn't see that on the label. I swear it said 'interior / exterior ' when I bought it. I think the primer gnomes must have changed the label when I wasn't looking. Damn things....


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

No biggie. My neighbor primed her garage with a int and it's held up.


----------



## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> You understand that Kilz Max is a interior primer, no?


Of course -- just testing for stain blocking. If it can block tannins on cedar, chances are it can block knots and tannins on pine interior trim, which is what I would want it for...but it doesn't sand without clogging paper, and I know of several others that do.


----------

