# How profitable do you think paint stores are?



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

Been seeing a heavier traffic on my way to the local paint store lately. I wonder just how profitable they can be.


----------



## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

One is profitable enough to have almost 4000 stores but not enough to have products on hand when you need them.


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

ttd said:


> One is profitable enough to have almost 4000 stores but not enough to have products on hand when you need them.


Hah!! ain't that the truth :thumbup: What store you talking about?


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Well, I see a lot of the general public in the suite I go to, and I get anywhere from 40-80% off of paint, and 20% off of sundries/disposables

Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Well, I see a lot of the general public in the suite I go to, and I get anywhere from 40-80% off of paint, and 20% off of sundries/disposables
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app



Up to 80% off? Nice!! what brand can you get those discounts for?


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Any retail biz is tough.

I managed a small paint & paper store a couple of decades ago. The owner was an alcoholic stoner who also owned a painting co. His business sense was deplorable (even though he father was Business professor at Harvard - perhaps even the dean) 

But besides needing to know one's ass from a hole in the ground, the competition is really stiff. 

It's not a walk in the roses.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Jimmy38 said:


> Up to 80% off? Nice!! what brand can you get those discounts for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Dulux. The product we get 80% off of is a pool paint. Its over $800 retail, we pay under $200. Now we just need to market it

Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> Any retail biz is tough.
> 
> I managed a small paint & paper store a couple of decades ago. The owner was an alcoholic stoner who also owned a painting co. His business sense was deplorable (even though he father was Business professor at Harvard - perhaps even the dean)
> 
> ...



Well competition can be stiff in any business, and as long as they hit at least $175,000+ a year in revenue, minimum amount of employees, and not excessive debt is enough to survive.


----------



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> Dulux. The product we get 80% off of is a pool paint. Its over $800 retail, we pay under $200. Now we just need to market it
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using PaintTalk.com mobile app



I liked it better when pool paints were hard to find. Tell em to get liners instead...


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Jimmy38 said:


> Well competition can be stiff in any business, and as long as they hit at least $175,000+ a year in revenue, minimum amount of employees, and not excessive debt is enough to survive.


You can get a lot less stressful livelihood if all want to do is SURVIVE. 

With the competitive discounts given on paint and paper the markup is NO WHERE NEAR 100%. When I was doing retail, we were figuring that for every $100 put in the register, about $30 was left for ALL overhead, including sales tax, rent, heat, electricity, insurance, wages, and all the other stuff one needs to keep a store open,

So if you GROSS $175,000 per year, that leaves the store $52,500 to cover ALL overhead. 

IMO, that ain't survival.

Obviously all stores generate different numbers


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> You can get a lot less stressful livelihood if all want to do is SURVIVE.
> 
> With the competitive discounts given on paint and paper the markup is NO WHERE NEAR 100%. When I was doing retail, we were figuring that for every $100 put in the register, about $30 was left for ALL overhead, including sales tax, rent, heat, electricity, insurance, wages, and all the other stuff one needs to keep a store open,
> 
> ...



$52,500 left after $175,000 annual revenue? Where did the rest of it go then if that wasn't for overhead such as the electricity, heat, rent , etc? If you did $175,000 subtract about $60,000 for all the overhead expenses, and then figure it's in the 28% tax bracket you're looking at about $80,000. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Am I being punked ? 

this feels all too familiar.

But maybe I'll play along until we are positive.

You said 175000 was revenue. That's the "top line". Total receipts. Approx 70% in a retail paint store goes right to your suppliers to pay THEM for the product YOU sold. 

Then you subtract all your other expenses to get the "bottom line"


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> Am I being punked ?
> 
> this feels all too familiar.
> 
> ...



I understand what you're saying, but it really depends how much you're buying each product for. I'm assuming you were selling what benjamin moore? How much was a single gallon of regal for example $20-$22? and you sell it for $40-$45


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Jimmy38 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but it really depends how much you're buying each product for. I'm assuming you were selling what benjamin moore? How much was a single gallon of regal for example $20-$22? and you sell it for $40-$45
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


When I was doing retail, NO PAINT was marked up 100%, not even close. PLUS, discounts were always given

No wallpaper was ever marked up 100%, plus most stores were giving 25 - 30 percent off retail price. 

The sundries were the only items that came close to 100% mark up.

And then, contractors got an extra 10 - 20 % off anything they bought.

As I said, about 70% of total revenue went towards supplies. Maybe as low as 60%, but definitely no where close to 50% (that would reflect a 100% mark up) 


I'd love some ballpark percentages from the shop owners that grace these pages. I'm speaking from memory of 25 years past.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Am I being punked ?
> 
> this feels all too familiar.
> 
> ...


According to this source, average gross margins have been a little better recently, but pre-tax profit is pretty dismal.

http://retailowner.com/Benchmarks/B...Dealers/Paint-Wallpaper-Stores#2886259-profit

Also, that's paint *and* wallpaper stores, and you know how those wallpaper types are....


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> When I was doing retail, NO PAINT was marked up 100%, not even close. PLUS, discounts were always given
> 
> No wallpaper was ever marked up 100%, plus most stores were giving 25 - 30 percent off retail price.
> 
> ...



I'd like some too. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> According to this source, average gross margins have been a little better recently, but pre-tax profit is pretty dismal.
> 
> http://retailowner.com/Benchmarks/B...Dealers/Paint-Wallpaper-Stores#2886259-profit
> 
> Also, that's paint *and* wallpaper stores, and you know how those wallpaper types are....


OK, and WHAT does the 1.9% pre-tax profit percent mean?

If the total receipts are 175,000 then the pre-tax profit is $3325?

That's not survival, that's suicidal


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

daArch said:


> OK, and WHAT does the 1.9% pre-tax profit percent mean?
> 
> If the total receipts are 175,000 then the pre-tax profit is $3325?
> 
> That's not survival, that's suicidal


You'll of course get a lower tax bracket if you made that amount which is 28% for any revenue from $87,850-$183,250. Now if it's still 70% profit for the suppliers then yeah I'd agree that's a burned bridge for this annual revenue.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jimmy38 said:


> You'll of course get a lower tax bracket if you made that amount which is 28% for any revenue from $87,850-$183,250. Now if it's still 70% profit for the suppliers then yeah I'd agree that's a burned bridge for this annual revenue.


...you don't pay income taxes on revenue. I'm not sure if we're on the same page here.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> OK, and WHAT does the 1.9% pre-tax profit percent mean?
> 
> If the total receipts are 175,000 then the pre-tax profit is $3325?
> 
> That's not survival, that's suicidal


That's my understanding of it.


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> ...you don't pay income taxes on revenue. I'm not sure if we're on the same page here.


Lol you're right I stand corrected.


----------



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

We get good pricing from Dulux, better than any other store. 

I would say they have to have a 100% markup, or a lot of the stuff we buy is losing them money by the time they mix it for us. I know they aren't making a ton on the products we use most(and get the best prices on) but they are doing a ton of sales on them. There is no way they aren't making money. I know a few other companies have my pricing Aswell so they aren't giving it all to us for cost. 

BM gives us a straight 20% trade discount regardless of product or amounts. That's for all 3 stores I deal with. 

Sw matched my Dulux pricing, and then one day I went in and they hiked it way up about 30% so I stopped going there.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Jimmy38 said:


> How profitable do you think paint stores


That's like asking, "How profitable do you think painting contractors are"?! I mean, I see a lot driving down the road. :blink::whistling2:


----------



## ttd (Sep 30, 2010)

Jimmy38 said:


> Hah!! ain't that the truth :thumbup: What store you talking about?


Why, Shirley Williams of course!


----------



## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Sherwin Williams is a highly profitable company. 10 billion in revenue and 1 billion in operating profit for 2013. I think that's doing all right. But that does amount to less than 250,000 per store. And they do have products elsewhere like purdy minwax ect. 

The thing with big companies though is their earnings are complex with all the depreciation and such. I do not pretend to understand it.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> Sherwin Williams is a highly profitable company. 10 billion in revenue and 1 billion in operating profit for 2013. I think that's doing all right. But that does amount to less than 250,000 per store. And they do have products elsewhere like purdy minwax ect.
> 
> The thing with big companies though is their earnings are complex with all the depreciation and such. I do not pretend to understand it.


"Operating profit" is a little misleading. That's net earnings *before* interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> "Operating profit" is a little misleading. That's net earnings *before* interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization.


But Perfffesser Gough, I don't got no interest in how Texas please de nation, or any more of any nation, and my pappy says the opera ate the fat lady.


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm assuming none of the retail paint store owners want to give us estimates of what percentages are profit, and what goes to the suppliers in today's paint retail world :]..understandable I guess.


----------



## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Interesting... and I too have thought that SOME products are certainly marked up 100% or more at the retail store b/c we get em at the CBD for less than half of what the retail store sells em for... not sure. 

The other day I was shootin the bull with the manager at our main CBD, he said they average 30k a day in revenue. A good day is 60k, and some slow days in the winter are only 10k.


----------



## Jimmy38 (Jul 11, 2014)

bryceraisanen said:


> Interesting... and I too have thought that SOME products are certainly marked up 100% or more at the retail store b/c we get em at the CBD for less than half of what the retail store sells em for... not sure.
> 
> The other day I was shootin the bull with the manager at our main CBD, he said they average 30k a day in revenue. A good day is 60k, and some slow days in the winter are only 10k.



What does CBD stand for? I know I'm a noob 😁😅


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

* How profitable do you think paint stores are?*

If I said "I don't care" would that be mean?


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

bryceraisanen said:


> Interesting... and I too have thought that SOME products are certainly marked up 100% or more at the retail store b/c we get em at the CBD for less than half of what the retail store sells em for... not sure.
> 
> The other day I was shootin the bull with the manager at our main CBD, he said they average 30k a day in revenue. A good day is 60k, and some slow days in the winter are only 10k.


Not sure what a CBD is, but this is a monster store!! This store would do near 10million per year which is way over the average for paint stores. And when I say paint stores, I'm not referring to a commercial or OEM type store. I came from SW and I want to say I heard the average store across the country did 750k. Most stores are in small rural towns, but the metro stores will do more. I managed stores from 1-2.5million.

Average retail markup is easily 50-60% on paint, sundries 100-200%. Sales and contractor discounts eat away at that margin, but we averaged 30-35% as a total, some stores like new construction stores would run negative total margin. HOW? That is a story for another time.

Paint stores are like any other retail venture. Inventory carrying costs and rent are the biggest hit to the mom and pop, big companies can afford to carry more. If you don't sell it quick, the bill comes due. If you don't have it, you can't sell it!! It's a tough balance for the owner or manager.


----------



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

CApainter said:


> * How profitable do you think paint stores are?*
> 
> If I said "I don't care" *would that be mean?*


You got my vote for pro painter of the year. That's what it would mean. :thumbsup:


----------



## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

CApainter said:


> * How profitable do you think paint stores are?*
> 
> If I said "I don't care" would that be mean?


I would think a lot of paint contractors here would want their local paint store profitable? It would be sad to see a store you have patronized for your career closed because of orange or blue. I see my relationship with the paint store as a partnership, they need me and I need them.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I would think a lot of paint contractors here would want their local paint store profitable? It would be sad to see a store you have patronized for your career closed because of orange or blue. I see my relationship with the paint store as a partnership, they need me and I need them.


Exactly. I don't want to have to switch brands again.

Yet there is that odd situation where PCs strive to getting the cheapest price they can from their paint store, yet p!ss and moan when clients do the same thing to them.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I would think a lot of paint contractors here would want their local paint store profitable? It would be sad to see a store you have patronized for your career closed because of orange or blue. I see my relationship with the paint store as a partnership, they need me and I need them.


I think you misunderstood me. I don't care in the sense that they are making money by selling high priced items. I do care that they are a profitably operated business, because as you pointed out, they are a critical part of the logistical matrix concerning a painting operation.


----------



## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

If that aint survival I must be dead and buried.


----------

