# Need Help On HUGE job! I have blueprints.



## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Another painter and myself are bidding on a college dormitory. I need some honest professional opinions on this. I am Just starting out and trying to grow my business. I am needing time-line opinions on this.

There will be 2 of us on this job. I have a sprayer. I have a location to spray off site. It is 3 floors the same. Here are the blue-prints and specs. 


Wall sqft - 78,260
Ceiling sqft - 19,722
Doors - 140 doors + frames at a total 6,132 sqft
Casing linear ft. - 10,954

Prints aren't real clear. I couldn't make them any bigger.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

If prints don't open right-click "open new window" might have to enter username again.... I did.... confusing.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Even those who are feeling nice, and willing to help you (of which there will be few), can't if you don't share what everything is speced for.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Also that sounds like too big of a job for two people to finish in any reasonable amount of time. Do you have more guys you trust?


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

my bad. 
primer and 2 coats on walls & ceiling
trim already primed. needs 2 coats.
doors already primed. need 2 coats.

Just looking for experienced painter who tackles similar jobs to give rough estimate on time. I am thinking 2 people at least 2-3 months. 

nee more info just ask.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

possibly a guy here on there but don't know of any full time help. Its a big job in a rural community.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Where's the painting schedule?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Looking at the drawing, and in the interest of time, it appears you can spend your efforts getting an accurate figure on one side since the other side is a close duplicate. Then, multiply your figures by two.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Well... theres really not one. the job is to be completed from Jan 1 through July 31. FINAL. hoping to get us in there by April but they cant guarantee us anything. Lots of unknowns.... Needing a bid by monday. They say they will come back to us with changes so we can adjust our bid after we submit initial bid.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

yeah thats what we have been doing.

what kinda of rate can one spray and backroll? 

This is a big job for us i realize that. I'm still unsure if i want to submit the bid. Thats why im asking.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Any specific paint and primer, or just whatever you want?


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

flat. they want it cheap and fast.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> Well... theres really not one. the job is to be completed from Jan 1 through July 31. FINAL. hoping to get us in there by April but they cant guarantee us anything. Lots of unknowns.... Needing a bid by monday. They say they will come back to us with changes so we can adjust our bid after we submit initial bid.


Be really careful with this part - having a firm completion date without a definite time you can start could come back to bite you big time. I would discuss this with them and see if you could start work earlier in some areas so you can get a jump on this time frame.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

dillingerpaint said:


> yeah thats what we have been doing.
> 
> what kinda of rate can one spray and backroll?
> 
> This is a big job for us i realize that. I'm still unsure if i want to submit the bid. Thats why im asking.


The question you need to be asking is "What kind of rates can _you_ spray and backroll". In other words, If I go by Hines Paintings rates, I may find myself drastically under estimating the job because I'm probably a lot less productive then he is.

If you don't know _your_ numbers, you're just walking into this blind folded. Good luck.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Could I submit the bit contingent on allowing us the time we state on the bid? and if time not allowed refuse the work in breach of bid?


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

i am figuring 720 sqft hour. that sound reasonable? we have done a test room and thats what we came up with.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

Could be a nice project. 

How much do you estimate the job costing? 
What is your firm bid at the present?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

*Man Power*



Hines Painting said:


> Also that sounds like too big of a job for two people to finish in any reasonable amount of time. Do you have more guys you trust?


I have run jobs like this with 2-4 painters. The big question is what CA said. Finish Schedule, Specified coatings, productions rates.

Without those figures you might as well be subsea abrasive blasting.:jester:


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

we are bidding on time only. right now im working on my time schedule so i can get a bid on my time.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> Could I submit the bit contingent on allowing us the time we state on the bid? and if time not allowed refuse the work in breach of bid?


You can submit anything you want. Getting it accepted…

Communicate with them about this. You may be able to negotiate a favorable time frame prior to bidding. If not, that could affect your bottom line number since getting more guys and equipment could become a factor. If you are concerned about completion with the man power you have or can get, then pass since it will be a nightmare.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

robladd said:


> I have run jobs like this with 2-4 painters. The big question is what CA said. Finish Schedule, Specified coatings, productions rates.


could you elaborate more on these please?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> could you elaborate more on these please?


He basically means you have to know what your schedule is, what types of products you are going to specifically use and how much, and how are you going to apply those products, and at what rate, to complete the job. Yes, you may be able to do some fine tuning but in in order to deliver an accurate and profitable bid you really need a handle on this basic information before you submit one at all.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

128k good luck


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Dillinger - 
Not trying to bust on ya', but if you are experiencing an, "Oh s--t!", moment when thinking about scheduling, materials, and production rates, and you are thinking of a range of 2-3 months instead of a specific number of days, you may be much better off passing on this than trying to submit a rushed bid by Monday. There's nothing worse than being locked into a job for a long time where you are losing money every day.


Of course, you could always submit a bid via the "Richmond Bidding Method" where;
B = pick out a number that sounds good and throw it at the wall. Worry about details later.

:whistling2:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> could you elaborate more on these please?


Kitchens and Baths on this day
Bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms and halls that day.

You have to remember you have different paints to be applied. Sealers, Flats, Glosses it will be on the finish schedule depending on which ceiling, wall, door, rail what ever.

Also production demand whats ready whats not. You have to get into a material and and do the most you can with what is ready.

I don't if Gabe was for real with 128K. Putting a 1st coat on door edges before their installed can make a HUGE difference. Good Luck


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> flat. they want it cheap and fast.


Did a rough for cheap. $40K for materials


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

robladd said:


> Did a rough for cheap. $40K for materials


No way.
Also, where did this lead cone from?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

*Yes Way*



Bender said:


> No way.
> Also, where did this lead cone from?


After reviewing the numbers giving by Gabe 128K was a BONE!!! That number I threw out there for the cheap in retail. There is many a Commercial Contractor that could CRUSH that number almost in half.

Saying


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

What about floors? color scheme?

I'm not seeing why 2 guys cant do it in 2 weeks nonstop. Covering floor would be the biggest slowdown for us.
This is assuming:

semi gloss white doors/trim/kitchen/bath

different sheen (flat?) everything else.

Multi-tone color scheme could bite you BIGTIME.

In your bid dictate doors to be painted @ x location. Try to paint before the trim guys show up and the floor guys lay final floor. 

Prep will be your undoing if you dont adress these potential bottlenecks.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

driftweed said:


> What about floors? color scheme?
> 
> I'm not seeing why 2 guys cant do it in 2 weeks nonstop. Covering floor would be the biggest slowdown for us.
> This is assuming:
> ...


That's the big question 1 tone or 2?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Early on, we did a lot of Greek houses (fraternities and sororities) in the summer. Scheduling was the biggest headache, and it caused big issues with effeciency. The CM would tell us that he has 1/3 of the job ready for us. We sort out that the 1/3 is spread out all over 3-4 floors, different types of room (=different finish schedule), even things like 3 out of the 4 walls in a room! It's the sort of thing that can totally wreck your production numbers...and your bottom line. 

I'd look over the PDCA standards on scheduling, etc. and include the relevant ones. I could see these guys squeezing you on the timeline, causing you to bring in more people, pay overtime, and generally get beat up. Make sure to include contract language about that.

Good luck.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

dillingerpaint said:


> flat. they want it cheap and fast.


 
for the doors, frames, trim AND walls?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

chrisn said:


> for the doors, frames, trim AND walls?


I am trying to figure out is this a Holiday repaint or NC?

Drift weed's got me dazed and confused.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm probably coming in at, or above, $124k. But I'm also probably not getting the job.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

dillingerpaint said:


> Another painter and myself are bidding on a college dormitory. I need some honest professional opinions on this. I am Just starting out and trying to grow my business. I am needing time-line opinions on this. There will be 2 of us on this job. I have a sprayer. I have a location to spray off site. It is 3 floors the same. Here are the blue-prints and specs. Wall sqft - 78,260 Ceiling sqft - 19,722 Doors - 140 doors + frames at a total 6,132 sqft Casing linear ft. - 10,954 Prints aren't real clear. I couldn't make them any bigger.


dude. It is not a bid. The prevailing wage thing does not work like that. Go down there and tell the guy the truth-'you are two hardworking honest and hungry guys. You need work and would appreciate the opportunity and would give it ur all. Tell him that 
You can't bid prints and you got no idea how long it's going to take you but you will do what you got to do to get the job done.

The truth, what a comcept I know. 

Just as a side note and not breaking out with a pencil or looking back to see what Gabe's number was exactly he's pretty close IMO. To what it is worth. Ballpark.

Your gonna need help or ur gonna be working doubles seven days a week. He's going to be looking to get over on you by paying you for eight and working you for 16 IMHO. Maybe O.T. In cash would work for both parties? Just beimg real.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> 128k good luck


I have $138K @$1.30/sf

$34,500.00 of that for materials @ 25%


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> we are bidding on time only. right now im working on my time schedule so i can get a bid on my time.


1 tone or 2. It makes a difference. I have my #'s and their consistent. :yes:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Tough to come up with times if you don't know some basics.
Sheens and colors should be specified in the Paint Schedule that comes with the prints.
For repaints at the local college they use SW PM400 semi dover white on ALL surfaces. They were also only paying $19.80/hr for labor when last I looked at that contract 5 years ago.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks guys for all the feedback. I and The other painter talked today and called the guy heading up the project. He said he has 2 other local guys that are bidding the job. He knows 2 guys prolly cant do it alone so he would like to keep it local and let all for of us go in together. 2 per unit. 18 units total. He also said he realizes there are a lot of variable and *now* doesn't require a bid until he gets the unknowns figured. when he does he would like a price per unit. I figured my hours with 2 people at 476 hours. or 60, 8 hr days. at a wall spread rate of 720 sqft/hr. with 2 people the bid came to $43,000 labor only. That sounds way too low for what you guys are saying.... I have a plan and some figures i just didn't include all of them in the post. Now, we are going to re figure for 2 coats flat on walls. no primer. 2 coats trim off location, doors will be installed when we get there. Remove door spray on location and put back in unit when unit is done. then move to next unit. the prints have 6 units. 6 per floor. 3 floors. thats where we are at now.


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## dillingerpaint (Sep 19, 2013)

ohh and all walls are same color in all units.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Wow, what a dream job. It's brand new correct, not a repaint? They can give you all the time you want, but I would bet with 3-4 guys, you should be able to do a floor per week. Four weeks total to complete.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Don't forget to mark up materials:whistling2:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Wow, what a dream job. It's brand new correct, not a repaint? They can give you all the time you want, but I would bet with 3-4 guys, you should be able to *do a floor per week. Four weeks total to complete*.


I thought there were 3 floors???

Nice to hear the GC wants to keep it local and have you guys collaborate.
Sounds like a ton of loose ends and opportunity for headaches though.
It's either going to be a great project for you or a full semester at the School of Hard Knocks.

Good luck!


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Two to three months will more than likely be unacceptable. Just my opinion.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

per unit price: $600 + materials 

Thats max of 4hrs per unit. But honestly, you can do 4 units day 2 coats if you do it right.

18 units total? Me and my son just did 11 units double that size in 6 days over a more scattered area (including prep). Of course, we worked 9 a.m. to midnight to do it. But, in special cases like that, that's what we do. Sounds like this is the same thing for you. So just power through it. When you cash that check, it will be soooo worth it.

18 units in two weeks without trying.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Commercial new construction is not even a little bit comparable to apartment paimtimg. Whole different animal


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Oden, explain further? 

I can see production schedule of other trades as being the key slowdown. But, if negotiated correctly that could easily become a non-issue.

These are the projects I want next year, so what would you do? I would talk to G.C. and nail down a firm schedule with penalty clauses.

Give me 48 hrs notice would realky be nice, & if i showed up and could not work then still get paid for lost time. The limited amount of new construction I've done, thats how I did it. Hold them to their order of operations.

My last one I knew the order of the trades, knowing that allowed me to plan an attack accordingly.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

robladd said:


> After reviewing the numbers giving by Gabe 128K was a BONE!!! That number I threw out there for the cheap in retail. There is many a Commercial Contractor that could CRUSH that number almost in half.
> 
> Saying


I retract all previous statements. Vote for Crispy Creme Christie...
http://www.painttalk.com/f4/prevailing-wage-how-does-work-26173/


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> I retract all previous statements. Vote for Crispy Creme Christie...
> http://www.painttalk.com/f4/prevailing-wage-how-does-work-26173/


Wait, this is that same gig??? I'm so confused. But Oden's first comment makes a lot more sense now.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

driftweed said:


> Oden, explain further? I can see production schedule of other trades as being the key slowdown. But, if negotiated correctly that could easily become a non-issue. These are the projects I want next year, so what would you do? I would talk to G.C. and nail down a firm schedule with penalty clauses. Give me 48 hrs notice would realky be nice, & if i showed up and could not work then still get paid for lost time. The limited amount of new construction I've done, thats how I did it. Hold them to their order of operations. My last one I knew the order of the trades, knowing that allowed me to plan an attack accordingly.


a job of any size you really have to experience it a few times to get a grasp on the chaos. I couldn't explain it. It's not at all apartments and not at all NC housing. It's comtrolled chaos. I do think that NC housing, like tract homes and developments equate better with the apartment painting ur doing a lot of though.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like the GC is fishing for numbers. Hire these guy's hourly or accept a bid from contractor.

What a Race to the Bottom


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Oden said:


> a job of any size you really have to experience it a few times to get a grasp on the chaos. I couldn't explain it. It's not at all apartments and not at all NC housing. It's comtrolled chaos. I do think that NC housing, like tract homes and developments equate better with the apartment painting ur doing a lot of though.


Sometimes, the "controlled" part isn't all that obvious.

The phrase that comes to mind: "it's all a$$holes and elbows."


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

dillingerpaint said:


> we are bidding on time only. right now im working on my time schedule so i can get a bid on my time.


That's a labor quesstimate.:whistling2:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

robladd said:


> Sounds like the GC is fishing for numbers. Hire these guy's hourly or accept a bid from contractor. What a Race to the Bottom


It is my opinion they are trying to get these two house painters to committ to doing x amount of work a day for the eight hours pay. and it is also my opinion that they aren't gonna get x in 8 hrs.

and Yeh they need to accept the job by the hour or pass on it.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> I thought there were 3 floors???
> 
> Nice to hear the GC wants to keep it local and have you guys collaborate.
> Sounds like a ton of loose ends and opportunity for headaches though.
> ...


Three floors yes, but you have other things to paint that are not on just those floors. You will have some overlap, so my four weeks stands.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

MikeCalifornia said:


> *Three floors yes*, but you have *other things to paint that are not on just those floors.* You will have some overlap, so my four weeks stands.


Just where will those other things be?:blink:

All kidding aside, without an actual schedule to outline the specs it's a complete crap shoot. The hard numbers provided for drywall, doors, and trim put the material costs between $35 + $40 K. 4 guys, 40 hours, 4 weeks @ $45 puts the labor at $28,800. That would be the first paint job I've ever seen where the materials were more than the labor. But, there's a first time for everything.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Just where will those other things be?:blink:
> 
> All kidding aside, without an actual schedule to outline the specs it's a complete crap shoot. The hard numbers provided for drywall, doors, and trim put the material costs between $35 + $40 K. 4 guys, 40 hours, 4 weeks @ $45 puts the labor at $28,800. That would be the first paint job I've ever seen where the materials were more than the labor. But, there's a first time for everything.


There's one where you'd want to be sure to markup your material.:whistling2:


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

72-108 days depending on schedule. $25,920-$38,880


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Gough said:


> There's one where you'd want to be sure to markup your material.:whistling2:


It doesn't seem right to mark up Behr paint when it costs sooooo much already.

Primer 300gal. @ $25
Flat white 135 gal. @ $30
Wall paint 520 gal. @ $35
Doors & trim 70 gal. @ $50

We won't be backrolling this job will we.....


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Just tell them mat x 5 and forget the sqft numbers....

I'm mathing up around 40k for labor by my system. But thats perfect world scenario.

Too many unanswered questions that could quickly raise the price.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

driftweed said:


> Just tell them mat x 5 and forget the sqft numbers....
> 
> I'm mathing up around 40k for labor by my system. But thats perfect world scenario.
> 
> ...


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

driftweed said:


> Just tell them mat x 5 and forget the sqft numbers....
> 
> I'm mathing up around 40k for labor by my system. But thats perfect world scenario.
> 
> Too many unanswered questions that could quickly raise the price.


Huh? 15 posts ago you just said $600 per unit x 18 units? That doesn't add up to 40k on my calculator.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

I like these threads. Mostly to see how different people would tackle it and schedule it. Makes for fun info.


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## driftweed (May 26, 2013)

Hines Painting said:


> Huh? 15 posts ago you just said $600 per unit x 18 units? That doesn't add up to 40k on my calculator.


Different pricing styles. A per unit price typically means you aint doin them all at once (my experience). In that case scheduling is more "known"...

A bulk price allows for other variables... Such as access, timing, etc. So, two prices for 2 diff scenarios.

If I'm doin 3 vs 18 they will of course be priced differently and accordingly.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Gotcha. 

I price all interiors based on wall square footage regardless of how much or how little. Something this big I would probably add 10-30% on top for potential headaches though.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I have $138K @$1.30/sf
> 
> $34,500.00 of that for materials @ 25%


I win low bid 

Bro I totally pulled that number out of the air. It was a complete guess


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Hines Painting said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> I price all interiors based on wall square footage regardless of how much or how little. Something this big I would probably add 10-30% on top for potential headaches though.


No economy of scale? No savings for minimal load in/ load out? That much area with one color, meaning a lot less waste? 

I realize that this project has enough unknowns to more than outweigh the potential savings.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I win low bid
> 
> Bro I totally pulled that number out of the air. It was a complete guess


Out of the air?? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you pulled it out of somewhere else:whistling2:


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Gough said:


> No economy of scale? No savings for minimal load in/ load out? That much area with one color, meaning a lot less waste?
> 
> I realize that this project has enough unknowns to more than outweigh the potential savings.


I park in the driveway of every house I do, so my load in/out is always about identical. The price certainly goes up as colors get added. But I'm bidding a 2 bedroom rental at the same base rate as a 5 bedroom custom built home if they are getting the same colors, sheens, etc.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Gough said:


> Out of the air?? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you pulled it out of somewhere else:whistling2:


Got to pull it from somewhere, even if its from pt.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

ewingpainting.net said:


> *I win low bid*
> 
> Bro I totally pulled that number out of the air. It was a complete guess


You can have it.
Hope you make some coin on that 'low bid'.

Being inexperienced in large commercial projects, this looks like a pit full of snakes to me.

Any special tooling up to do prior to start of work?
What sort of game plan/schedule going in?
Will you have the smoker on site for the entire job?


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Hines Painting said:


> I park in the driveway of every house I do, so my load in/out is always about identical. The price certainly goes up as colors get added. But I'm bidding a 2 bedroom rental at the same base rate as a 5 bedroom custom built home if they are getting the same colors, sheens, etc.


I could be wrong, but most likely you won't be 'parking in the driveway' of this jobsite. We had one NC job this spring in a rural town where even when we could get to the house it was a bloody muddy mess. The dirt tracked inside hourly/daily by all trades was a freakin' nightmare. Oh, and of course the project was behind schedule and had a deadline.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

dillingerpaint said:


> There will be 2 of us on this job. I have a sprayer. .





Hines Painting said:


> Also that sounds like too big of a job for two people to finish in any reasonable amount of time.


Duh, he has a sprayer.
:jester:


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