# Cabinet Painting Issue



## Ubercorey

Hey y'all, this is my first request for help and insight. 

I'm refinishing a set of upper cabinets and chose to try PPG Breakthrough as a direct application over existing polyurethane. Being that we don't know if this is really poly or varnish, etc, did a test run on a spare door. 

This issue is the the poly began to flake and curl after an hour. I did the whole prep procedure as I intend to do on the whole job. Krud kutter, scuff, rinse with water, dry, then shoot the paint. 

My next step is to try an oil base primer on another door and see if the poly curls again. Last option would be to have new doors made : /

Insights, advice, things to try? I'm supposed to shoot this job in a few days. Yikes!


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## Tprice2193

Welcome to the forum. i am so glad you did a test. Your prep sounds sufficient as far as cleaning and roughing up the topcoat. Your process may have been alright if more of topcoat was removed. Obviously the Breakthrough is interacting with the previous topcoat. I will not attempt to describe the chemistry of what is going on, others on the forum are more qualified to do that. Your solution as you suggested is to prime prior to application of the topcoat. Rather than an oil I would suggest BIN pigmented shellac. Shellac is the universal sealer and adheres to virtually any previous topcoats whether oil or waterbased. If you go this route I would test it on the back of one of the doors. Maybe you could send us a pic of a door before any prep. Something is telling me that original finish is a little weak. If so it will have to come off.


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## Ubercorey

Ah! Brilliant! I completely forgot about shellac primer. 

I will definitely post a photo of the existing doors. And yes I suppose I could just sand it down. 

Question, I'm using a Graco pro handheld sprayer, do you think it's ok to shoot shellac primer through that? It's sets so fast I'm a bit nervous of using solvent primers in a fine gun like that. Again this is my first rodeo with this technology.


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## CApainter

Those raised paint lines remind me of what you'd see on aged laminate exterior siding. Have those cabinets been refaced with a thin wood veneer?


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## RH

Ubercorey said:


> Ah! Brilliant! I completely forgot about shellac primer.
> 
> I will definitely post a photo of the existing doors. And yes I suppose I could just sand it down.
> 
> Question, I'm using a Graco pro handheld sprayer, do you think it's ok to shoot shellac primer through that? It's sets so fast I'm a bit nervous of using solvent primers in a fine gun like that. Again this is my first rodeo with this technology.


Personally I would never run it through one of my sprayers, but then again the Graco handheld isn’t really a sprayer so... :devil3:

Just kidding. Seems like this came up not long ago and some said they would spray it and others wouldn’t. Just like spraying anything, just clean it really well afterwards. Be ready to run lots of ammonia through it before storing.
I use my HVLP when spraying non-acrylic/latex products since it’s easier to clean. Obviously not an option for you.


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## Ubercorey

Good call on the hvlp, I have one so that is fantastic! And these have not been refaced, and I know what you mean about it looking like a distressed vaneer, but it's just plain old original plywood door from the 50's or 60's


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## CApainter

Ubercorey said:


> Good call on the hvlp, I have one so that is fantastic! And these have not been refaced, and I know what you mean about it looking like a distressed vaneer, but it's just plain old original plywood door from the 50's or 60's


I wonder if there's a thin veneer over that plywood. Either way, I'd be inclined to sand off as much coating as possible, and prime and finish with an alkyd resin system. Or, just replace them.


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## Rbriggs82

I've encountered this a bunch of times especially with older doors, the worst ones are always under the sink. Sand then spray with BIN, I use an older sprayer practically dedicated to it, and spray two coats of Breakthrough. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## RH

Ubercorey said:


> Good call on the hvlp, I have one so that is fantastic! And these have not been refaced, and I know what you mean about it looking like a distressed vaneer, but it's just plain old original plywood door from the 50's or 60's


Super! Glad you have a HVLP. They come in pretty handy for this type of thing - though I do have different guns dedicated for stains, clearcoats, and primers/oil based paints. 
The BIN is a pretty thin product so you shouldn’t need to thin it. Even so, if a primer goes down a little less than perfect, a light sanding will take care of it.


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## Wildbill7145

And if you're gonna spray it, ventilate ventilate ventilate. Do a search on here. I did when you asked the original question and that came up a lot. Don't blow yourself up by taking a smoke break when you're done spraying anywhere near the sprayed areas. As well, don't blow your brains to pieces with the fumes.

Use the best respirator available with the best appropriate filters.


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## lilpaintchic

Wildbill7145 said:


> And if you're gonna spray it, ventilate ventilate ventilate. Do a search on here. I did when you asked the original question and that came up a lot. Don't blow yourself up by taking a smoke break when you're done spraying anywhere near the sprayed areas. As well, don't blow your brains to pieces with the fumes.
> 
> Use the best respirator available with the best appropriate filters.


And make sure all pilot lights are out. And yes, it looks like the tenacity of breakthrough might be too much for the existing coating or the tenacity may be more so than the glue in the plywood, causing it to warp...hard to say from the pic provided Gotta get that off and retest a door. Otherwise, using a different product might be better. Maybe a true oil or a hybrid? If they're old plywood cabs that are being painted I can't imagine a big budget to strip em all....

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## Tprice2193

No thinning is required when spraying BIN through HVLP. As you mentioned you have to take measures to keep it from drying in the spray. Turn air down and watch air temp as turbine heats up. I use denatured alcohol to clean up. My biggest issue with spraying BIN is the cleanup.


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## Ubercorey

Wildbill7145 said:


> And if you're gonna spray it, ventilate ventilate ventilate. Do a search on here. I did when you asked the original question and that came up a lot. Don't blow yourself up by taking a smoke break when you're done spraying anywhere near the sprayed areas. As well, don't blow your brains to pieces
> with the fumes.
> 
> Use the best respirator available with the best appropriate filters.


Oh heck yeah! I'm a bit of a safety freak since I was raised in the bush, lol!

I did my first 14 years in the trades with no respirator and now I have breathing problems so I use mine all the time now. I just keep it on all day at work as even a light amount of dust causes me to have a lung flare up. Young and dumb!

That shallac primer is so hardcore, but I think I can make a good seal in the kitchen and create negative pressure with a fan in the window.


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## Ubercorey

Tprice2193 said:


> No thinning is required when spraying BIN through HVLP. As you mentioned you have to take measures to keep it from drying in the spray. Turn air down and watch air temp as turbine heats up. I use denatured alcohol to clean up. My biggest issue with spraying BIN is the cleanup.


Ok, good to know on the gun setting and clean up. I think what I will do then is set up a cleaning station outside ready to go before I spray.

Man, I totally get why cabinet refinishers charge so much now! This is a ton work and steps.


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## Ubercorey

lilpaintchic said:


> Wildbill7145 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if you're gonna spray it, ventilate ventilate ventilate. Do a search on here. I did when you asked the original question and that came up a lot. Don't blow yourself up by taking a smoke break when you're done spraying anywhere near the sprayed areas. As well, don't blow your brains to pieces with the fumes.
> 
> Use the best respirator available with the best appropriate filters.
> 
> 
> 
> And make sure all pilot lights are out. And yes, it looks like the tenacity of breakthrough might be too much for the existing coating or the tenacity may be more so than the glue in the plywood, causing it to warp...hard to say from the pic provided Gotta get that off and retest a door. Otherwise, using a different product might be better. Maybe a true oil or a hybrid? If they're old plywood cabs that are being painted I can't imagine a big budget to strip em all....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

10-4 on the safety, this is getting real, lol!

And I was thinking the same thing about switching paint since I'm gonna be using primer anyway now. The one benefit I see to just going with what I got is the breakthrough can recoat in an hour. Thats pretty epic. I was not too stoked on the finish, it's not as sexy as BM Advance. But I would like to get some practice in with this product.

If my next test door with the Bin is a flop I'll switch. 

Question, if I do switch to a hybrid, do you recommend something besides Advance? It runs and sags pretty easily and I'm very novice as spraying : /


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## Ubercorey

PS y'all rock, I'm so glad I reached out for help. I've never done one of these forum things.


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## lilpaintchic

Personally, the only hybrid I've used is proclassic. It's kinda "meh" in my book, but it will do the job... I have used breakthrough a few times and it can be a bit tricky. Imo, if you're gonna shoot bt, set up a spray station and a dry station. Don't lay em out to shoot all at once. And thin is better. Better to do multiple coats than have to sand runs. Also, I like bt with an airless...
Honestly, I'm seriously considering going back to satin impervo. I'm over all of the new stuff and all the different methods trying to adjust techniques... I just wish it didn't yellow like it does. But oil has never disappointed....i might try advance one of these days though. Everyone here loves it, just gotta get through the learning curve I guess.....

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## Tprice2193

Hard to beat BIN as a primer and Breakthrough as a topcoat. Particularly from a production standpoint. If this fails the test then you probably have some delamination going on. There are many other alternatives but they require more of an investment than the cabinets are worth. I would go ahead and do your test door and let us know how it comes out. Two things for sure: 1) you will be always refining your process and 2) the members on here will never run out of valuable advice on how to approach a job. Most importantly they take the time to tell you why to do it a particular way.


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## PACman

Was the original finish just a clear over bare wood or was it a clear over a paint? Because those photos look like a classic "poly over latex paint" recoat issue.


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## Ubercorey

The original was poly (or varnish) over plywood door. Then the paint you see in the photo is what I sprayed directly over the poly. I cleaned, scuffed, rinsed, dried, then shot the paint. Today I'm gonna try to sand almost to wood, if not all the way, then spray bin shallac primer, then try another test coat of the Breakthrough. This should work, fingers crossed.


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## RichieSam

Good luck.....let the effort you had put in bear the fruit.


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## PACman

?????


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## futtyos

*Just reading for first time*



Ubercorey said:


> Hey y'all, this is my first request for help and insight.
> 
> I'm refinishing a set of upper cabinets and chose to try PPG Breakthrough as a direct application over existing polyurethane. Being that we don't know if this is really poly or varnish, etc, did a test run on a spare door.
> 
> This issue is the the poly began to flake and curl after an hour. I did the whole prep procedure as I intend to do on the whole job. Krud kutter, scuff, rinse with water, dry, then shoot the paint.
> 
> My next step is to try an oil base primer on another door and see if the poly curls again. Last option would be to have new doors made : /
> 
> Insights, advice, things to try? I'm supposed to shoot this job in a few days. Yikes!


Uc, just read through everything here for the first time. Not sure I have anything important to say, but here goes.

My first impression of your photo is that moisture is starting to delaminate the plywood. If so, at what point did this happen? Was it there to begin with and you just didn't notice it as the finish was clear? Did the cleaning and sanding process introduce moisture to the plywood? If you used Krud Kutter and used a scrub pad to work it over the surface, then rinse with water, you may have abraded the surface of the clear finish and let moisture into the plywood surface. If this did not introduce enough moisture to curl the wood, maybe the extended contact of the moisture in the Breakthrough introduced the moisture.

What I would do is test another surface as follows:

1. Wipe the surface down with some type of fast drying solvent that won't soak into the surface like water might. Denatured alcohol solvent, lacquer thinner, acetone, etc.

2. Sand the surface with a grit or progression of grits that gets you a smooth surface to the touch.

3. Wipe the surface down again with paper towels or a microfiber towel that is slightly damp with the solvent you used in #1 above.

4. Use a white foam mini roller (fine finish) to apply a coat of BIN and let dry thoroughly. I suggest this instead of your sprayer as the BIN will dry really flat and smooth and will save you the trouble of cleaning out a sprayer if you end up not using BIN.

5. Very lightly sand the BIN with a 300 grit or so sanding sponge and wipe as done before.

6. Spray a coat of Breakthrough on and see what happens.

If this works, then you would break out the sprayer to apply the BIN. Just some thoughts.

futtyos


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## Ubercorey

Results are in, it worked! 

Holy cow that was so much work. We washed, sanded, wiped, primed, filled, sanded, wiped, spot primed, shot the paint. We did one coat only on the doors since we had them laid flat, but 2 on the boxes to not risk sag.

The finish is not as sexy as Advance, but still amazingly silky. 

I didn't respond to everyone, but thank you all for your insight and yes we did a new test door with the primer before we did everything. 

My crappy HVLP splatter the shellac primer. So I foam rolled it and used some cans. Scary as heck with the unevenness of the roller, but the test door was epic so we went for it.

Now I want a decent HVLP. 

Picks are lame, but I'm going back later to touch up and I'll get some better ones. 

Whew!

Oh yeah, how do you like my site built dry rack? : ) Worked well!


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## Surepaint

*Surepaint-Brisbane-Painter-Qld*

I just read your query. After looking on it I think you have to contact officially with some professional painters.


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## Jimithing616

RichieSam said:


> Good luck.....let the effort you had put in bear the fruit.





Surepaint said:


> I just read your query. After looking on it I think you have to contact officially with some professional painters.


Haha am I the only one who’s cracking up reading these? Idk, it’s late. Maybe I’m loopy from spraying BIN :devil3:


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## Woodco

surepaint said:


> i just read your query. After looking on it i think you have to contact officially with some professional painters.


wtf???


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## lilpaintchic

Woodco said:


> wtf???


Easy,guys.... Aussie in da haus! 

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## Wolfgang

I happen to like the Aussies. Unless they have a home remodeling show. Or are doing infomercial after informercial. Otherwise, some of the nicest folks I've ever met.....unless they're doing infomercials. (Did I mention that?) Like we can't buy something we can't live without, without an Aussie telling us how great it is. But wait!!! If you read this again, you'll be able to read it again and again. Just pay the handling fee.


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## lilpaintchic

Wolfgang said:


> I happen to like the Aussies. Unless they have a home remodeling show. Or are doing infomercial after informercial. Otherwise, some of the nicest folks I've ever met.....unless they're doing infomercials. (Did I mention that?) Like we can't buy something we can't live without, without an Aussie telling us how great it is. But wait!!! If you read this again, you'll be able to read it again and again. Just pay the handling fee.


If i read it again do i get to read it again for free? 

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## Wolfgang

Yup. But first you have to call the 1-800 # - which slips me at the moment.


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## PACman

Wolfgang said:


> I happen to like the Aussies. Unless they have a home remodeling show. Or are doing infomercial after informercial. Otherwise, some of the nicest folks I've ever met.....unless they're doing infomercials. (Did I mention that?) Like we can't buy something we can't live without, without an Aussie telling us how great it is. But wait!!! If you read this again, you'll be able to read it again and again. Just pay the handling fee.


Their beers sucks and they can't surf. At least that's what my neighbor in San Diego told me.


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## RH

They have great mountains and skiing... er, scratch that... that’s the Austrians.


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## PACman

wonder what happened to than "ben the painter"(?) guy? Last i saw on here he was climbing over some nasty rocks to go fishing. Hope he's ok.


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## PPD

PACman said:


> Their beers sucks and they can't surf. At least that's what my neighbor in San Diego told me.


The beer defiantly sucks hard but they can beat the crap out of us surfing (shh I didnt say that!)...during my trip we went to surf & my friend was all “come on- we gotta get out on the rocks & catch the outter swell...get ready to paddle” ...ya, no- I’m not dying in Byron Bay, I’ll just watch you from right here 😛


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## PPD

Wolfgang said:


> Yup. But first you have to call the 1-800 # - which slips me at the moment.


Hold on- I think my insomniac ass has it saved on spees dial...lemme look


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## Lazlo

I have been following this thread. Hey Ubercorey how did they turn out?

Also I see that a lot of you recommended BIN. That is what I would have said. But I normally spray it through a cup gun and compressor and have never really used a HVLP. Considering getting a HVLP though,is there a huge advantage to it over just using a compressor?


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## PPD

Lazlo said:


> I have been following this thread. Hey Ubercorey how did they turn out?
> 
> 
> 
> Also I see that a lot of you recommended BIN. That is what I would have said. But I normally spray it through a cup gun and compressor and have never really used a HVLP. Considering getting a HVLP though,is there a huge advantage to it over just using a compressor?




Not sure what you mean? An HVLP is low pressure but still requires a compressor & gauge to measure pressure levels or you’ll have orange peel. 

If u mean; is there an advantage over gravity feed? ...

I personally prefer HVLP but thats prolly based in the fact that long before getting into business professionally I started w/ a husky gravity feed & eventually picked up one of the cheapie HF guns & made the recommended modifications and fell in love!! 

For oil base I always use the HF hvlp guns (before use completely take it apart remove all the oils, replace the O rings, add gauge & new tip). After those simple modifications I cant tell much difference btwn that & my airless! They’re also so cheap with sales and coupon I can afford to replace them vs deep cleaning and worrying about clog up.


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## Gentle

I suggest using some shellac on your cabinets as a sealer.


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## Mr Smith

I personally would never use (Low VOC) Breakthrough for cabinets. I've had a couple of reps who sell the stuff tell me the same thing. It's not an enamel.

Benjamin Moore Advance (excluding white color) or Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua are your best bets.


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## jennifertemple

lilpaintchic said:


> Personally, the only hybrid I've used is proclassic. It's kinda "meh" in my book, but it will do the job...
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



My go to cabinet paint is Para's Ultra Hybrid (Eggshell) I just LOVE! that stuff, everything about it!


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## Mr Smith

jennifertemple said:


> My go to cabinet paint is Para's Ultra Hybrid (Eggshell) I just LOVE! that stuff, everything about it!


All hybrids will yellow. I just don't feel good about recommending a cabinet paint that will eventually yellow. I'd say 95% of my cabinet jobs are for a white color.


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## jennifertemple

Mr Smith said:


> All hybrids will yellow. I just don't feel good about recommending a cabinet paint that will eventually yellow. I'd say 95% of my cabinet jobs are for a white color.



All mine, so far, have been historical houses and generally an "antique" off white. *I have seen a Para repaint 20 years later and a pinkish color held up well. (After 20 years there were a few chips but what else could one expect?) The old melamine, in the oil based poly held up and was still bright white 10-12 years later. I nearly cried when they outlawed that stuff! It was my favorite cabinet and trim paint 25 years. I have yet to run across anything in water based that compares in the slightest. But heck, even white factory finishes yellow over time; it's more a question of how much time.


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## KooLayed369

Kelly Moore has recently re-formulated their hybrid paint line (now called Epic) to be whiter longer out of the can. As mentioned previously, it will probably still yellow over time, but its good to know they are working on that issue. They also have a new exterior paint that is hydrophobic and actually repels water. Combine that with some Bug Juice and you have a great exterior top coat.


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