# To prime or not to prime... That is the Question.



## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

I'll give you a topic...

We do a lot of New Construction. I have been in a debate with just about everyone on whether or not it is worth the time to prime bare drywall. We currently dump about 40 gallons on a 2000 sq. ft. house and back-roll. The walls look great. I know that we could get an even smoother finish, plus use less top coat if we applied a split coat or tinted prime coat prior to our finish coat. 

What are your thoughts? I use Sherwin Williams almost exclusively. Primer would be SW 152 Pro Primer, top coat SW Contractors.

...Go ahead, discuss amongst yourselves. I'm feeling a bit verklempt.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

What kind of NC are you doing? Track builder vs custom builder is what's going to make the difference. Way back in the day when did a smaller track builder it was spray and back rolled. 

At the same time we did a custom build where we primed and painted. Both were happy with the product but they also had different expectations and prices they were willing to spend. 



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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I use sw but not those products. We do remodels and rez repaints .If 152 is pva then why bother...I'd go with multi or pb depending on top coat sheens. Little more expensive for primer but if im going with egg or satin top coats I like to start building sheen (and color) out the gate. Less headache later.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

Mid-High end Tract homes, starting in the low-mid $300's. Walls and Ceilings are Satin.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

prime em(walls)


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

csbeepee said:


> Mid-High end Tract homes, starting in the low-mid $300's. Walls and Ceilings are Satin.


If it's satin I'd definitely be priming. :yes:


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

csbeepee said:


> Mid-High end Tract homes, starting in the low-mid $300's. Walls and *Ceilings are Satin.*


Who specced satin for ceilings and why?

Just curious, I'm sure it looks great.

But it seems rather unorthodox to have every ceiling in a home shine and bounce so much light. (I'm not even sure I would go satin for all walls if I could only have one sheen.)


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

One thing I've learned since I joined this forum is that there must be some substantial regional differences in sheen choices. In all my days of painting I don't think I've ever seen more than a handful of walls painted in satin and never ever seen a ceiling done.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I pity the fool who don't use primer. 
(Insert Best Mr. T Face here. )


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

Definitely a regional thing. Tract homes walls here are eggshell, ceilings flat, trim semi or higher. Trim is preprimed 1 coat only. Walls get tinted primer and ceiling get primed and another top coat. Not that my area is all upscale but the cheapest new home will run in the $250k range. The 250k to 350k are the homes I avoid. Not that I don't do them but its always same nickel and dime ****. They want a high quality finish but don't want to pay for it.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

csbeepee said:


> I'll give you a topic...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If what your doing now is working, why change? 

I don't see how you could improve on your system without adding another coat. Going from two finish coats, to one prime and one finish isn't going to improve anything. 

If your thinking to save money by using some cheap PVA as the first coat, that's likely to actually reduce the quality of your finished product. 

I still thing there is a lot of dogma involved in how we approach drywall. It's just not that challenging of a surface to coat. 


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

I would look for a cheap primer that works. Zinnser, USG, and Tough coat have some inexpensive primers that give good results. Pva sealers just don't have enough body and spray like garbage.


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## QPP (Dec 24, 2015)

I apply alot of eggshell due to family's with children not being able to properly clean flat finish walls or they just get dirty to quick. I never usually prime unless it's a deep base color or the walls are greasy,nicotine or something like that. I just put 2 coats of eggshell and go to the next. I use only SW paints Pro Mar 200 for walls and Solo semi for trim.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Best Painting Practices typically include priming all bare substrates. Anything less, is usually considered the painting contractor's personal preference.


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## QPP (Dec 24, 2015)

Bare substrates always . I think I got off topic in my earlier reply. I was commenting on priming for eggshell and satin finishes. Oops


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Why are you asking? If you are using Promar 200 and everyone is happy with it why do something different? Your not going to change anyway.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Jmayspaint said:


> If what your doing now is working, why change?
> 
> I don't see how you could improve on your system without adding another coat. Going from two finish coats, to one prime and one finish isn't going to improve anything.
> 
> ...


I learned this mistake recently. I'm usually doing repaints, but had a job where new drywall was installed. I went the PVA route. It cost me time and money, I had coverage issues when applying topcoats, etc. PVA and Promar 200 will not be a combination in my painting arsenal any more.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I find it very sad that whether it be a tract home, or a high-end custom, that some choose (or are forced to) not prime new drywall. I wish the standards in our industry were higher. Nowadays it just seems that low price blow n go is the norm for NC. 
Not bashing anyone specific here, just sayin.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

ProWallGuy said:


> I find it very sad that whether it be a tract home, or a high-end custom, that some choose (or are forced to) not prime new drywall. I wish the standards in our industry were higher. Nowadays it just seems that low price blow n go is the norm for NC.
> Not bashing anyone specific here, just sayin.


NC is BOOMING around here. Everyday I see 100's of gallons of Painters Edge hand trucked out of SW, not one gallon of primer goes along with it. :vs_sob:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Rbriggs82 said:


> NC is BOOMING around here. Everyday I see 100's of gallons of Painters Edge hand trucked out of SW, not one gallon of primer goes along with it. :vs_sob:


Exactly.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Low building finish quality has been good for me. I have done a lot of work for people moving into newly purchased homes.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

Jmayspaint said:


> If what your doing now is working, why change?
> 
> I don't see how you could improve on your system without adding another coat. Going from two finish coats, to one prime and one finish isn't going to improve anything.
> 
> ...


I'm really just looking to increase my margin as much as possible. These guys don't pay **** (it's a stepping stone). We currently apply a single coat and back roll. This is the Builder's Spec! NOT OURS! We dump so much paint that it fully saturates the bare drywall and leaves enough product on the surface to give us a proper sheen and coverage. I was thinking that switching from a single coat to a primer/topcoat system would be beneficial for everyone. I'm starting to think the way we are doing it now is the most efficient route. 

Thank you all for your input!


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

Boco said:


> I would look for a cheap primer that works. Zinnser, USG, and Tough coat have some inexpensive primers that give good results. Pva sealers just don't have enough body and spray like garbage.


I didn't consider the fact that I would likely want to re-purpose a rig to spray that junk! Thanks!

My thought was to seal the bare drywall with a PVA Primer so the finish wouldn't saturate, therefore using less top coat. Am I off base?


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

I paint paint said:


> Who specced satin for ceilings and why?
> 
> Just curious, I'm sure it looks great.
> 
> But it seems rather unorthodox to have every ceiling in a home shine and bounce so much light. (I'm not even sure I would go satin for all walls if I could only have one sheen.)


It does look great! It also makes my job easier... The ceilings are hand textured skip trowel.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

PACman said:


> Why are you asking? If you are using Promar 200 and everyone is happy with it why do something different? Your not going to change anyway.



I currently apply one coat of Contractors Satin, and a whole lot of it.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

csbeepee said:


> I didn't consider the fact that I would likely want to re-purpose a rig to spray that junk! Thanks!
> 
> My thought was to seal the bare drywall with a PVA Primer so the finish wouldn't saturate, therefore using less top coat. Am I off base?


:no:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Reminds me why I stay clear of New Construction. So cut throat! Maybe GC's should just start selling the places pre-primed and skip topcoats all together...haha.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> I learned this mistake recently. I'm usually doing repaints, but had a job where new drywall was installed. I went the PVA route. It cost me time and money, I had coverage issues when applying topcoats, etc. PVA and Promar 200 will not be a combination in my painting arsenal any more.


Pva is a waste of time imo....there are Wayyyyyyyy too many good, cheap primers to bother screwing around with it. 123 is farrr better and lays a good base with a sheen. I'd definitely be using something like it anyway.... it'll reduce or completely eliminate flashing at punch depending on whether you have 1 or 2 top coats. I'm guessing you satin is more of an egg without it and flashes pretty bad at punch....


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> Low building finish quality has been good for me. I have done a lot of work for people moving into newly purchased homes.



Right on. Except the finish on the trim is always awful (very rough) so it's nearly impossible to get an impressive finish during a repaint. Unless the customer is willing to spend the money to have it all sanded down!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> Pva is a waste of time imo....there are Wayyyyyyyy too many good, cheap primers to bother screwing around with it. 123 is farrr better and lays a good base with a sheen. I'd definitely be using something like it anyway.... it'll reduce or completely eliminate flashing at punch depending on whether you have 1 or 2 top coats. I'm guessing you satin is more of an egg without it and flashes pretty bad at punch....


Isn't the PVA (poly vinyl acetate) designed as a bonding coat between a high alkaline substrate and subsequent coatings? I don't think it was ever designed to be a filler, sanding sealer, or leveling base for paints with higher sheens.

I think the PVA was specifically designed for chemical compatibility. But most painters are more concerned about the aesthetic results rather than all that technical stuff that doesn't reveal itself until failure occurs years later.. Hell, JPahl (PT member), proved two or three coats of BEHR can look pretty damn good without any primer.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Isn't the PVA (poly vinyl acetate) designed as a bonding coat between a high alkaline substrate and subsequent coatings? I don't think it was ever designed to be a filler, sanding sealer, or leveling base for paints with higher sheens.
> 
> I think the PVA was specifically designed for chemical compatibility. But most painters are more concerned about the aesthetic results rather than all that technical stuff that doesn't reveal itself until failure occurs years later.. Hell, JPahl (PT member), proved two or three coats of BEHR can look pretty damn good without any primer.


The only use I've ever found for it was a nifty bucket to stand on if I didn't want to go grab my ladder. Lol
My understanding of the product (limited I may add)is that holds some vapor barrier qualities of some sort (cuz its like glue?)and it actually designed to be a "primer " on fresh drywall used prior to texture. It is not a stand alone product. Nor is it a "primer" in terms of painting. It is a drywall product...absolutely useless to us.well, useless to me anyway...
I'm open to whatever bashing comes my way for sharing my understanding of it. But it sure makes sense to me considering my experiences with it.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

ProWallGuy said:


> I find it very sad that whether it be a tract home, or a high-end custom, that some choose (or are forced to) not prime new drywall. I wish the standards in our industry were higher. Nowadays it just seems that low price blow n go is the norm for NC.
> Not bashing anyone specific here, just sayin.


Exactly!:yes:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> The only use I've ever found for it was a nifty bucket to stand on if I didn't want to go grab my ladder. Lol
> My understanding of the product (limited I may add)is that holds some vapor barrier qualities of some sort (cuz its like glue?)and it actually designed to be a "primer " on fresh drywall used prior to texture. It is not a stand alone product. Nor is it a "primer" in terms of painting. It is a drywall product...absolutely useless to us.well, useless to me anyway...
> I'm open to whatever bashing comes my way for sharing my understanding of it. But it sure makes sense to me considering my experiences with it.


PVA is actually an industry standard primer for bare drywall. It's referred to in many professional and qualified painting trade association articles that analyze the subject of gypsum finishes. For example, this link explains a little about it http://www.wccinfo.org/files/The Interior Guide - September - 2015.pdf

So once again, there are best practices, and then there are painting contractor preferences. And although preferences may have value in the preferred process that a painter may employ, they shouldn't be interpreted as replacements for known standards, without a qualified seal of approval.

Anything less, is a kitchen's brew.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> PVA is actually an industry standard primer for bare drywall. It's referred to in many professional and qualified painting trade association articles that analyze the subject of gypsum finishes. For example, this link explains a little about it http://www.wccinfo.org/files/The Interior Guide - September - 2015.pdf
> 
> So once again, there are best practices, and then there are painting contractor preferences. And although preferences may have value in the preferred process that a painter may employ, they shouldn't be interpreted as replacements for known standards, without a qualified seal of approval.
> 
> Anything less, is a kitchen's brew.



Ahh phooey. Are you aware of any gypsum manufacturers that recommend PVA? 

What higher standard do you think residential pros should be held to other than manufacturers specifications, and what works. 

I wonder if your conflating the technical demands of your particular area to the industry as a whole. 

The fact is, some of the newer self priming acrylics work awesome.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Isn't the PVA (poly vinyl acetate) designed as a bonding coat between a high alkaline substrate and subsequent coating....
> 
> ....I think the PVA was specifically designed for chemical compatibility......



I agree, particularly when surface dust is an issue. 

I get what your saying, I think, about adhesion and long term problems form skipping this step. I've just never seen a failure of this type that couldn't be explained by dust. 

In my experience, acrylics will bond just fine with thoroughly dry, and clean gypsum walls. If these initial conditions can't be met for some reason, a specialty primer may be needed. Or if the condition of the drywall requires it for some reason. Excessive paper damage, etc.. 


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> Isn't the PVA (poly vinyl acetate) designed as a bonding coat between a high alkaline substrate and subsequent coatings? I don't think it was ever designed to be a filler, sanding sealer, or leveling base for paints with higher sheens.
> 
> I think the PVA was specifically designed for chemical compatibility. But most painters are more concerned about the aesthetic results rather than all that technical stuff that doesn't reveal itself until failure occurs years later.. Hell, JPahl (PT member), proved two or three coats of BEHR can look pretty damn good without any primer.


I'll show you what Contractors Satin looks like with one heavy coat. I'll get some pictures up here soon. It does the job.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

CApainter said:


> PVA is actually an industry standard primer for bare drywall. It's referred to in many professional and qualified painting trade association articles that analyze the subject of gypsum finishes. For example, this link explains a little about it http://www.wccinfo.org/files/The Interior Guide - September - 2015.pdf
> 
> So once again, there are best practices, and then there are painting contractor preferences. And although preferences may have value in the preferred process that a painter may employ, they shouldn't be interpreted as replacements for known standards, without a qualified seal of approval.
> 
> Anything less, is a kitchen's brew.


Thank you for nailing what I was trying to get at with this post. 

When we paint new gypsum board in a single coat application, we run into the issue of inconsistencies in coverage/sheen. Some areas of thicker texture absorb the paint differently than the area right next to it, which leads to sheen inconsistencies. It is definitely not a problem with our spray pattern. 

I was seeking to alleviate this by using a quick drying PVA primer to seal the bare drywall, therefore reducing the amount of topcoat we use. It's all about efficiency here. 

By the time you get through the house spraying PVA (takes about an hour to dry with a cooperative environment), you can have your helper set up another pump in your topcoat so you can start spraying immediately where you started.

We don't have an issue with flashing at punch in either system. The key is how much paint you put on the surface. It has to be thick! 

I think I'm going to pay attention to time and material for each method and see which is more profitable. I'll report back.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Ahh phooey. Are you aware of any gypsum manufacturers that recommend PVA?
> 
> What higher standard do you think residential pros should be held to other than manufacturers specifications, and what works.
> 
> ...


Every drywall manufacturer I've every dealt with in regards to finish specifications recommends a "high solids" drywall primer. PVA is NOT a "high solids" primer. It is a sealer.

And I really think as painters you guys put WAY to much faith in the quality and consistency of the drywall itself and the finish work of the drywall. If It satisfies the GC, and you are making money, why change? You really aren't going to see a real significant change in the finish quality or the production rate without a significant upgrade in the products being used, and that would mean a price per gallon significantly higher. And THAT would mean a significant change in industry standards in regards to the quality expected from the finished product. And since the expectations of that quality have been trending downward for 25-30 years, I wouldn't be expecting any changes in the future.

Builders are working on such a tight profit margin they have to squeeze every dime possible, and that means using the cheapest paint and painting system that gets the job done. It's a shame that people are buying houses that are painted as cheaply as possible but until the end user wises up and realizes they aren't getting the quality they think they are, this is pretty much the way things are going to be.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Ahh phooey. Are you aware of any gypsum manufacturers that recommend PVA?
> 
> What higher standard do you think residential pros should be held to other than manufacturers specifications, and what works.
> 
> ...


I get the reasons for side stepping specific primers in favor of self priming paints. Painters can save a lot of time. And since many new construction residentials require only a superficial value to sell, why get bogged down in the technical minutia.

What concerns me though, is the mob mentality of painters who express their disdain for PVA sealer, as if the urge to be accepted as part of a community of commiserators, supercedes known standards. 

Don't use primers. What do I care. Just stop waving the flag of personal preference as if it's the new standard of the land. 

Freakin Anarchists:jester:


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

The problem I have with pva is that it takes exactly the same amount of effort and only a few more dollars to achieve a better finish. 2 coats of satin over pva is gonna flash at punch. Either repaint full walls (labor is more expensive than product) or let it go are the options. And are the painters being paid for repainting full walls to accommodate for a cheap a55 sustem? I would but I know some dont...they're just expected to make it right. It's just dumb...especially when the solution is so simple.

It's not a plea for acceptance, It's common sense. But hey, I'll take the $ for the repaint all day long!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

lilpaintchic said:


> The problem I have with pva is that it takes exactly the same amount of effort and only a few more dollars to achieve a better finish. 2 coats of satin over pva is gonna flash at punch. Either repaint full walls (labor is more expensive than product) or let it go are the options. And are the painters being paid for repainting full walls to accommodate for a cheap a55 sustem? I would but I know some dont...they're just expected to make it right. It's just dumb...especially when the solution is so simple.
> 
> It's not a plea for acceptance, It's common sense. But hey, I'll take the $ for the repaint all day long!


Until the LPC standards are recognized industry wide, I'll continue employing the current standards that guide the trade's best practices.

I'm full of integrity like that.:whistling2:


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Until the LPC standards are recognized industry wide, I'll continue employing the current standards that guide the trade's best practices.
> 
> I'm full of integrity like that.:whistling2:


Lol!! Didn't you see it on the news this morning? The clip was on right after the weather clip.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz, anyone?*

I imagine that starting with a good coat of Gardz is not going to work as far as profit goes, but consider that Gardz will soak in and seal, not only the new drywall and mud, but also whatever dust remains after sanding and cleaning. I did a room that had been re-drywalled and I did not dust. I admit that I put 2 coats of Gardz on, but my 2 coats of eggshell left a flawless sheen. Since virtually no water in the paint is absorbed into the Gardz/wall, the paint is far easier to work and smooth out and the wet edge stays wet.

futtyos


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

csbeepee said:


> I'll give you a topic...
> 
> We do a lot of New Construction


So do we. Prime and be done with it. If you do NC it's all about speed, spending time building up color and filling is just a waste. Spray primer and paint and be done with it.

Edit: 
Looks like the debate is about PVA vs the others. 

Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

If it's cheap low-end stuff than PVA. If it's commercial work where the owners don't really care and just need color on the walls, PVA. 

If it's more custom work such as a custom home or an upper scale place, then do a high-build for a couple bucks more. Apply the high-build properly and you'll create a beautiful finish. Most of the time our customers see the primer and think it's paint. I've even had a few painter friends come by during lunch breaks and they think it's paint too.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Until the LPC standards are recognized industry wide, I'll continue employing the current standards that guide the trade's best practices.
> 
> I'm full of integrity like that.:whistling2:


For industry standards to be meaningful, they need to be good. Lead paint was also industry standard for quite a while, if you recall. I think we can all agree the industry standards currently (such as they are) are absolute rubbish. Will that change? Hopefully. Has it? Nope.

In fact, I'd say it takes much more integrity to go above industry standards when you know full well that they aren't right than it does to blindly follow the rules.

Is it anarchy? Maybe, but it's anarchy in the same way that breaking the law to stop a corrupt government from doing immoral things is. If you have any kind of dedication to integrity you know when the rules are wrong.

Get a decent primer for $1 more than PVA primer, or do two coats of finish. Both are superior to PVA primer in every way on drywall.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I would rather use BM's WB Fresh Start for bare drywall than PVA sealer. And according to the Interior Finish link I provided, PVA, or a primer sealer are recommended for bare drywall. I don't think this discussion started out as a PVA verses an alternate primer, I thought it was piming verses two coats of finish.

But I do find it interesting that there's a tendency for painters to jump on the "I Hate PVA!" band wagon. As if to bond in solidarity against a known painting standard. After all, painters are smarter than chemists and testing organizations. Besides, who cares? And as far as having experience with PVA, I probably applied it and stopped using it before LPC was even born. LOL. But I'm certainly not going to pretend I know what's better than the known standards.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pva sealer is just like any other paint product. Walk in to any box store and more often then not it is the cheapest "primer" they sell. Whether it works or not is actually irrelevant to how it is being sold. It's the cheapest thing someone can put on as a first coat and be led to believe they are doing the best paint job they can. That's why they sell tons of it. The PVA sealers i have available to me i would have to retail for at least 2.5 times the price they are. Although when you look at the spec sheets the ones I can get have at least 3 times the solids. So, why do you think I refuse to stock PVA sealer? Because I can sell a level 5 quality drywall primer for $2-3 a gallon more!

I'm actually having a sale in January for a level 5 drywall primer for 30 cents a gallon more then Lowe's has their Valspar PVA sealer and 35 cents a gallon more then Home Depot is selling Behr's PVA sealer. Do you think I'll be able to move any? F no! But I gotta try.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> After all, painters are smarter than chemists and testing organizations. Besides, who cares? But I'm certainly not going to pretend I know what's better than the known standards.


Maybe not smarter on average, but again... people have reason to distrust painting's "standards." For one thing, they aren't very standard at all, and for another they have a history of being incredibly biased and incredibly inaccurate.

There's also something to be said for experience. Sometimes people applying products are much more knowledgeable about what actually works than the eggheads who come up with "standards." You can find evidence of this smeared across the entire world. Hiding behind standards when the standards are known to be poor is a cop-out, but worse than that it's an appeal to authority logical fallacy in the worst way. If you think PVA primer is a good product for what it's meant to do, tell us why you think it's good. Don't tell us that some guy said it's good and therefor is.

Sometimes lots of people don't like something because it's bad, not because they want to fit in with a bunch of painters on the internet.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

woodcoyote said:


> So do we. Prime and be done with it. If you do NC it's all about speed, spending time building up color and filling is just a waste. Spray primer and paint and be done with it.
> 
> Edit:
> Looks like the debate is about PVA vs the others.
> ...


Best piece of advice that actually fits with what I'm doing. 

This is low-mid end production. My original question was whether or not shooting a PVA based primer is worth it in my scenario. AGAIN, I currently shoot one heavy coat back-rolled and it looks good. My only concern is the added cost nearly doubling with such a heavy coat (35-40g per 2000 sq ft house). If I could cut that cost by $5.00/gallon it would be beneficial. 

I would essentially be applying 20g of a PVA sealer at $15/gallon and 25g of top coat at $20/gallon. TOTAL COST = $800 in material vs 40g of top coat which comes to $800 also. It appears to me that I have answered my own question (with your help). 

I will be spending roughly the same amount on material with an hour or two of added labor if I were to choose to shoot primer. I'll be sticking with one heavy coat from now on (unless the GC wants to pay me to spray primer). 

_Who wants to work for free?_

Our quality is superb for the product we are given to work with. :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The following quote, regarding an interior drywall coating failure, may be one good reason to use PVA sealer.



> "Chemical analysis of the laboratory-applied joint compound (both the USG products reported to have been used on site) and the field-applied joint compound showed that there was significantly less binder (one-third) in the field applied material. Analysis showed that the field- applied joint compound contained approximately 1% binder while the laboratory-applied, unthinned, joint compound contained approximately 3% binder. The polyvinyl acetate (PVA) binder in the joint compound formulation is the glue that holds the film together. While joint compounds are specifically formulated with low binder concentrations so that they can be easily sanded, binder concentrations of 1% are too low to provide the integrity necessary to achieve a sound wall system."


Link to the complete article. http://www.durabilityanddesign.com/blog/?fuseaction=view&blogID=108


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

csbeepee said:


> Best piece of advice that actually fits with what I'm doing.
> 
> This is low-mid end production. My original question was whether or not shooting a PVA based primer is worth it in my scenario. AGAIN, I currently shoot one heavy coat back-rolled and it looks good. My only concern is the added cost nearly doubling with such a heavy coat (35-40g per 2000 sq ft house). If I could cut that cost by $5.00/gallon it would be beneficial.
> 
> ...


I can get you a level 5 quality drywall primer for $10 and change a gallon. If anything I would go after them to lower your PVA price. They're making a killing on it at $15 a gallon I bet. But almost every tract home I ever sold to was just one coat sprayed and backrolled. If any second coat was put on it was after the punch out. Pretty much every home built in California since the 70's was painted that way.

And what paint were you using? Around here even $20 a gallon seems a little high for that application. (i could get you Prohide gold for less then that on a large job)

Just went back and re-read the op. $20 a gallon is good for satin. As long as the holdout is good just do what you are doing. PVA isn't really going to help that.

Just curious. What if you could get a paint for $26 a gallon but you could do the same job with 30 gallons? What if you could save 2-3 hours per day on labor? Would that make sense?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Maybe not smarter on average, but again... people have reason to distrust painting's "standards." For one thing, they aren't very standard at all, and for another they have a history of being incredibly biased and incredibly inaccurate.
> 
> There's also something to be said for experience. Sometimes people applying products are much more knowledgeable about what actually works than the eggheads who come up with "standards." You can find evidence of this smeared across the entire world. Hiding behind standards when the standards are known to be poor is a cop-out, but worse than that it's an appeal to authority logical fallacy in the worst way. If you think PVA primer is a good product for what it's meant to do, tell us why you think it's good. Don't tell us that some guy said it's good and therefor is.
> 
> Sometimes lots of people don't like something because it's bad, not because they want to fit in with a bunch of painters on the internet.


Drake,

Unless someone can provide qualified and measurable evidence that applying PVA sealer is a "bad" industry practice, its complete conjecture and preference. Which I've stated many times is a contractor's perogative.

About the only thing you and me might agree on, is that the painting industry is hampered by personal opinions, home brews, and unqualified painters determining standards.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> The following quote, regarding an interior drywall coating failure, may be one good reason to use PVA sealer.
> 
> 
> 
> Link to the complete article. http://www.durabilityanddesign.com/blog/?fuseaction=view&blogID=108


Perhaps my reading comprehension is faulty, but the mention of PVA in this article is to do with the amount in the joint compound and nothing to do with the primer. The results seem to dictate that the joint compound was thinned too much in application, resulting in the failures. Further, it suggests that primer cannot _in any way_ shore up a poor job by drywallers; it can only seek to be a stronger coating by itself to try to protect poor drywall jobs.

Interpreting the results, this would suggest that a high build primer like one I've suggested would be the better choice in every possible situation over a PVA primer. Perhaps just poor choice of source on your part, or I'm misreading some part of it.

Edit: To save people needing to peruse the entire discussion, here are some quotes that support my assertions:



> The authors believe that the improved integrity is likely the result of a shell-like membrane that forms over the surface of the wall when the primer/sealer is applied. The membrane distributes the stresses that are applied to the wall (during tape removal) rather than their being concentrated directly beneath the tape in the joint compound.
> 
> However, the lab found no evidence that the primer/sealer penetrated through the original coating system and bound up the friable joint compound.





> If the dried drywall mud comes off as a light to heavy dusting that won’t cease, then the painting contractor should provide a disclaimer about the strength of the adhesion of applied coatings to the Owner, because no paint will glue down this weak substrate.


In closing, higher build primers are demonstrably and laboratory proven to be equal or better in adhesion (which isn't an issue when your substrate is poor, as per the given example in this article) and additionally give a more durable finish by being tougher on their own.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Drake,
> 
> Unless someone can provide qualified and measurable evidence that applying PVA sealer is a "bad" industry practice, its complete conjecture and preference. Which I've stated many times is a contractor's perogative.
> 
> About the only thing you and me might agree on, is that the painting industry is hampered by personal opinions, home brews, and unqualified painters determining standards.


Ever read a USG drywall finishing spec? Just curious.

here it is. Go me! Especially interesting is the section on painter best practices. No mention of PVA sealer anywhere though.
https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG...ions-best-practices-white-paper-en-WB2625.pdf


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> The following quote, regarding an interior drywall coating failure, may be one good reason to use PVA sealer.
> 
> 
> 
> Link to the complete article. http://www.durabilityanddesign.com/blog/?fuseaction=view&blogID=108



That's a very interesting article. A good cautionary tale on over thinning joint compound and an explanation for those finished gypsum panels you run into occasionally that seem impossible to dust completely. 

I would have to agree Drake though on its relevance to this particular topic. 

This makes me curious what effect (if any) Gardz would have on a weakened gypsum system as investigated in the article. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

PACman said:


> Just curious. What if you could get a paint for $26 a gallon but you could do the same job with 30 gallons? What if you could save 2-3 hours per day on labor? Would that make sense?


I think we would be splitting hairs. I currently pay $18/g for SW Contractors Satin.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

You guys are getting way off point. Of course there are better alternatives to PVA sealers. But given that joint compound resins incorporate PVA for curing, it doesn't seem too far fetched to apply it directly over the joint compound as suggested by many of today's current painting specifications. 

As I mentioned earlier, I like using BM's Fresh Start other than PVA sealer. But to jump on a band wagon that claims PVA is "bad", is preposterous.

No matter how any of you try to spin it, PVA sealer is still a standard bare drywall sealer. Don't kill the messanger because of your personal preferences.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'd say in general, I'm providing a pretty positive perspective in terms of painting best practices. Besides, wasn't this whole topic about priming verses primer finishes?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I'd say in general, I'm providing a pretty positive perspective in terms of painting best practices. Besides, wasn't this whole topic about priming verses primer finishes?



Yes you are. You're representing the traditionalists side of this argument very well. 
We've debated this topic ad nauseam, but I still enjoy sparring with you about it. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Drake,
> 
> Unless someone can provide qualified and measurable evidence that applying PVA sealer is a "bad" industry practice, its complete conjecture and preference. Which I've stated many times is a contractor's perogative.
> 
> About the only thing you and me might agree on, is that the painting industry is hampered by personal opinions, home brews, and unqualified painters determining standards.


Qualified and measured by whom?How does one achieve that nobel status? How are you measuring and qualifying these experts for which you have such high regard?
How do any of us that have been working in the field of the painting industry (for over 20 years) ever reach those lofty heights? 
Is it only qualifiable and measureable by some squint in a lab coat sitting at his desk measuring voc's and deciding how much glue makes pva worth as much as the bucket it comes in? Or is an architect or designer who learned it at school in a book qualified? 
What works on paper doesn't always work out in the field.(think "as builts").
Scenerio
3 new textured walls:
1 with 1 heavy coat of finish
1 with pva and 1 coat of finish
1 with (insert latex non pva) primer and 1 coat of finish

Which of these wall finish systems do want in your new home?
We'll put the other systems in the squints house. Same price....maybe he'll figure out what really qualifies the term "best practices", and put it in writing somewhere so he can receive accolades for his brilliance. Meanwhile, those of us who already figured it out will just keep doing what we know to actually BE "best" practices.


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> Qualified and measured by whom?How does one achieve that nobel status? How are you measuring and qualifying these experts for which you have such high regard?
> How do any of us that have been working in the field of the painting industry for over 20 years ever reach those lofty heights?
> Or is it only qualified and measureable by by some squint in a lab coat sitting at his desk measuring voc's and deciding how much glue makes pva worth as much as the bucket it comes in.? Or is an architect or designer who learned it at school in at book qualified?
> What works on paper doesn't always work out in the field.(think "as builts").
> ...




:notworthy:. :thumbup: :yes:


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## The Cutting Edge (May 25, 2014)

I'm not a pva fan at all but is it better to have a coat of pva under 1 coat of paint? I would have to say yes probably so. For my money though I would go a zinsser 123. You're only talking maybe 10-12 $ more for a 5 and you're going to use less paint for your top coat than a pva and building sheen which is worth doing especially since your doing a satin top coat. I know you already stated most of this lil paint chik. Thought id add to it.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

There is little doubt that in terms of a bond coat, PVA's do the job very well even in adverse conditions and have been relied upon as a "standard" for that purpose. 

I think most complaints about PVA's stem from issues other than bonding. Such as inconsistent sealing properties. And an inability to provide a uniformly porous surface with some gypsum compounds. 

The question posed here seems to be is a two coat application consisting of a PVA and a finish coat measurably better than a single coat of primer/finish applied to the same DTF. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

W


lilpaintchic said:


> Qualified and measured by whom?How does one achieve that nobel status? How are you measuring and qualifying these experts for which you have such high regard?
> How do any of us that have been working in the field of the painting industry (for over 20 years) ever reach those lofty heights?
> Is it only qualifiable and measureable by some squint in a lab coat sitting at his desk measuring voc's and deciding how much glue makes pva worth as much as the bucket it comes in? Or is an architect or designer who learned it at school in a book qualified?
> What works on paper doesn't always work out in the field.(think "as builts").
> ...


You may want to start by looking up the PDCA, SSPC, MPI, ASTM, NACE, and other known painting standards that are an absolute guide for inspected painting projects. Just because a painter thinks he or she is a hot shot, doesn't mean the industry now revolves around their preferences. Especially, if the only training they've received in the industry was from humping for Billy Bob Blow and Go.

BTW, it's still admirable to be producing good quality paint jobs without formal training. But have a little respect for those who have set the standards by earning that right through accredited training.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I can respect their decisions. And work above standards. Though I just have that one question still left unanswered.
Which of the 3 wall finish systems( that i mentioned earlier)would you like in your new home?
While we're at it, I also wonder which system is preferred in the homes of those that write the books and set the standards?
Perhaps that is the difference-- I do a lot of residential. I work with people, families, in their homes. There is a certain amount of trust that is placed in our hands to provide a quality product that will perform. I can not, in good conscience, apply an inferior product just to try to save a couple of dollars.
I cut teeth on rez repaints and loads of ti's.
Even on all the ti's we still used seal grip...it just makes good cent$.
It doesn't make me a hot shot, just experienced. (And very opinionated, lol)

P.s. not to disregard their wealth of collegiate experience, but I'd love to meet some of these squints in the field and see how well they perform at the methods they prescribe. Will they hold themselves to the standards they set forth or will some of them begin to question the manual...? The vision in my mind of that happening is truly halarious...lol



And here's the address to my "Billy Bob's blow and go" training ground:

Www.russellconstruction.com 

Check out some of the gallery pics. Not one drop of pva.  and many of the big wigs who put these projects together don't have one drop of pva in their homes either...just sayin.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

LPC,

In my house, or a high end construction that permitted me the time, I'd be inclined to go with PVA, Fresh Start, and then two coats of finish. Especially if it called for a sheen. For a flat finish, maybe just PVA and two coats of flat. And for a blow and go, probably two coats of KM 550 flat.

Like you, I also have preferences that have served me well for thirty some odd years, to the present. But I'll spare you the gallery.

As far as this discussion concerning priming, in most situations, I would rather prime than not, prior to applying a finish coat.

Yours truly,

Squint


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Why would you put PVA under Fresh Start? The article you linked clearly proved academically that no matter how adhesive your primer, it won't shore up the drywall work if it's bad. If the drywall work isn't bad, Fresh Start has adhesion far beyond what's necessary for drywall. You'd just be throwing away money (granted, not much of it).



CApainter said:


> You guys are getting way off point.


It's not off point, it's directly on point. We're trying to give the best advice we can to the OP, and also further discussion on the subject. If we're going to ever improve our industries shoddy standards, then these discussions _must_ be had, and all blowing off the discussion does is continue hiding behind standards with no evidence- academic or applied- at all.



CApainter said:


> Of course there are better alternatives to PVA sealers. But given that joint compound resins incorporate PVA for curing, it doesn't seem too far fetched to apply it directly over the joint compound as suggested by many of today's current painting specifications.


This is an argument from incredulity. Just because 'it doesn't seem too far fetched' doesn't mean it's true.



CApainter said:


> No matter how any of you try to spin it, PVA sealer is still a standard bare drywall sealer. Don't kill the messanger because of your personal preferences.


No one's trying to kill the messenger, especially because you're not a messenger- we all already know industry standards. My point is, the standard is bad. You're defending the standard, and I'm asking you to bring forth any evidence other than "because someone said so," which you've so far failed to do. In fact, the only academic evidence you've linked has further proved my point, and all anecdotal evidence (including your own) agrees with me as well. 

I'd love to see an article from any of your standards that says _why_ it's a standard. I would guess it's the same reason lead paint was a standard. "Someone handed us a can of it 20 years ago and so we wrote it down." I don't think paint industry standards are anywhere near as good as you think they are. MPI doesn't even quality test the products they list.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Just spray and damn backroll it like the USG data sheet says. One coat, high solids paint (SW contractor is one.) backrolled. If the sheen is consistent with no flashing it is all good.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

csbeepee said:


> I think we would be splitting hairs. I currently pay $18/g for SW Contractors Satin.


I was using the numbers you posted earlier. If you are getting it for $18, and the drywall manufacturers spec says one coat backrolled, I doubt that there is anything that would make this job more profitable for you than to streamline and speed up the application somehow. As long as the finish is acceptable you're on the right track and using a PVA sealer isn't going to help save money at all. No sense stirring things up to save maybe pennies on the entire job.

Except arguing about PVA is fun for some people I guess.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> You guys are getting way off point. Of course there are better alternatives to PVA sealers. But given that joint compound resins incorporate PVA for curing, it doesn't seem too far fetched to apply it directly over the joint compound as suggested by many of today's current painting specifications.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, I like using BM's Fresh Start other than PVA sealer. But to jump on a band wagon that claims PVA is "bad", is preposterous.
> 
> No matter how any of you try to spin it, PVA sealer is still a standard bare drywall sealer. Don't kill the messanger because of your personal preferences.


PVA isn't "bad" per se, Just pretty much not needed since the early 80's when the drywall manufacturers started incorporating a sealer between the gypsum and the paper during the manufacturing process. They have actually been obsolete since then. Paint companies just love selling the stuff because it is such a huge cash cow for them. P&L and California for example don't even have a PVA sealer available.

A former co-worker of mine had been a production manager for USG in the late 70's. A long time ago, back in dinosaur times, (you know-1984) we had a discussion about this. I don't remember everything he told me, but the gist of the convo went like this. In olden times, drywall was manufactured in a way that when any paint or primer was applied, most of the liquid portion of the coating was sucked like a Dyson into the gypsum. That was where a PVA sealer came into use. It was thin enough to suck into the paper and the gypsum and provide a barrier to keep successive paint or primer coats from sucking directly into the gypsum. In the late 70's, a process was developed by USG that provided a seal coat between the paper and the gypsum during the manufacturing process. At that point, PVA became redundant and pretty much unnecessary for the most part. BUT, the paint companies could use their cheapest resin, reduce the hell out of it, make it for pennies a gallon and get a huge mark-up when they sold it. Probably somewhere in the 500-600% mark-up range. Therefore they continued and still promote it's use, even if in most circumstances it is useless. It won't necessarily hurt anything, but it is really not needed for the most part.

Again this is what I was told by a drywall company insider eons ago so take it for what it's worth. Just be aware that paint companies make HUUUUUGE profits off of it.

And the only reason it has any white pigment in it at all is to ease the application of it. It isn't supposed to provide any hide whatsoever.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Further, the Drywall Finishing Council recommends following manufacturer instructions for finishing. So far no drywall product manufacturers I've ever seen have recommended a PVA primer for their finish. (Source: http://www.dwfc.org/wp-content/files/1996_Transfer_-_Interior_Job_Condition_Specifications.pdf )

I find no reference to PVA primer in any of the PDCA standards, though I will admit I'm not well versed in them so I may have missed it. Can you site a source for that claim?

Of course SSPC standards aren't public, so I can't check that one. Can you site a source?

I can't seem to find a NACE standard dealing with PVA primers. Can you site a source?

MPI references the ASTM standard and doesn't even have its own, so we can cross that off your list also.

What I do find is this:



> A collective effort of four industry trade associations—Association of
> the Wall and Ceiling Industries-International (AWCI), Ceilings and
> Interior Systems Construction Association (CISCA), Gypsum Association
> (GA) and Painting and Decorating Contractors of America (PDCA)—has
> ...


In their recommendations, they spec a "drywall primer." According to MPI, who reference this same list of finishes as well, a drywall primer is this: http://www.specifypaint.com/APL/paintinfo_APL/MpiNumber.asp?ID=50000 Note that these are not all PVA primers.

As far as I can find without spending considerable money, no standards specify that a PVA primer is the right one for the job- they simply spec a drywall primer. And according to MPI, drywall primer doesn't mean PVA primer.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> PVA isn't "bad" per se, Just pretty much not needed since the early 80's when the drywall manufacturers started incorporating a sealer between the gypsum and the paper during the manufacturing process. They have actually been obsolete since then. Paint companies just love selling the stuff because it is such a huge cash cow for them. P&L and California for example don't even have a PVA sealer available.
> 
> A former co-worker of mine had been a production manager for USG in the late 70's. A long time ago, back in dinosaur times, (you know-1984) we had a discussion about this. I don't remember everything he told me, but the gist of the convo went like this. In olden times, drywall was manufactured in a way that when any paint or primer was applied, most of the liquid portion of the coating was sucked like a Dyson into the gypsum. That was where a PVA sealer came into use. It was thin enough to suck into the paper and the gypsum and provide a barrier to keep successive paint or primer coats from sucking directly into the gypsum. In the late 70's, a process was developed by USG that provided a seal coat between the paper and the gypsum during the manufacturing process. At that point, PVA became redundant and pretty much unnecessary for the most part. BUT, the paint companies could use their cheapest resin, reduce the hell out of it, make it for pennies a gallon and get a huge mark-up when they sold it. Probably somewhere in the 500-600% mark-up range. Therefore they continued and still promote it's use, even if in most circumstances it is useless. It won't necessarily hurt anything, but it is really not needed for the most part.
> 
> ...


And also, this statement applies to quality drywall brands that meet industry spec's, not cheap off brand drywalls or Chinese drywall. In fact if PVA sealer was used on that Chinese drywall years ago they probably wouldn't have had the problems they had. If you look at the complaints about it, most of them where somehow related to moisture getting into the gypsum component. If it had been properly sealed, most of the issues wouldn't have happened.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Further, the Drywall Finishing Council recommends following manufacturer instructions for finishing. So far no drywall product manufacturers I've ever seen have recommended a PVA primer for their finish. (Source: http://www.dwfc.org/wp-content/files/1996_Transfer_-_Interior_Job_Condition_Specifications.pdf )
> 
> I find no reference to PVA primer in any of the PDCA standards, though I will admit I'm not well versed in them so I may have missed it. Can you site a source for that claim?
> 
> ...


USG says to use a "primer/surfacer" or a high solids paint as a first coat on bare drywall. Not a mention of PVA anywhere in their printed information.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I thought PVA was primarily for joint compound, not necessarily the drywall board. And until the industry officially rejects PVA sealer as a bonding sealer, its a legitimate component of a coating system in my opinion. So offering it to the OP as an option for sealing bare drywall shouldn't be considered a "shoddy" practice just because a store person has a particular preference for another system. And frankly, if there were any legal issues concerning a coating failure that specified PVA, a contractor had better applied it. 

And we need to remember, that just because everyone on this site is providing the highest level of quality to all of their customers, all of the time, doesn't mean there isn't room for operations that provide a budget friendly option to their customers.

I would also suggest that if anyone here has problems with painting standards, that they take it up with the people who qualify them, and not the people who follow them. Meanwhile, I'll maintain my integrity while others are changing this shoddy world. LOL.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I thought PVA was primarily for joint compound, not necessarily the drywall board. And until the industry officially rejects PVA sealer as a bonding sealer, its a legitimate component of a coating system in my opinion. So offering it to the OP as an option for sealing bare drywall shouldn't be considered a "shoddy" practice just because a store person has a particular preference for another system. And frankly, if there were any legal issues concerning a coating failure that specified PVA, a contractor had better applied it.
> 
> And we need to remember, that just because everyone on this site is providing the highest level of quality to all of their customers, all of the time, doesn't mean there isn't room for operations that provide a budget friendly option to their customers.
> 
> I would also suggest that if anyone here has problems with painting standards, that they take it up with the people who qualify them, and not the people who follow them. Meanwhile, I'll maintain my integrity while others are changing this shoddy world. LOL.


But I am referring to a major drywall and drywall compound manufacturer and not any industry standard, real or imagined. Not a peep about PVA sealer from the people who make drywall AND compound? Sounds legit to me.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I thought PVA was primarily for joint compound, not necessarily the drywall board. And until the industry officially rejects PVA sealer as a bonding sealer, its a legitimate component of a coating system in my opinion. So offering it to the OP as an option for sealing bare drywall shouldn't be considered a "shoddy" practice just because a store person has a particular preference for another system. And frankly, if there were any legal issues concerning a coating failure that specified PVA, a contractor had better applied it.
> 
> And we need to remember, that just because everyone on this site is providing the highest level of quality to all of their customers, all of the time, doesn't mean there isn't room for operations that provide a budget friendly option to their customers.
> 
> I would also suggest that if anyone here has problems with painting standards, that they take it up with the people who qualify them, and not the people who follow them. Meanwhile, I'll maintain my integrity while others are changing this shoddy world. LOL.


But I am referring to a major drywall and drywall compound manufacturer and not any industry standard, real or imagined. Not a peep about PVA sealer from the people who make drywall AND compound? Sounds legit to me. I myself am not saying using PVA sealer necessarily means a cheap job, just that it isn't really doing much. It can seal compound for sure, but a high solids paint or the specified primer/SURFACER will do just as well. So why the extra coat?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I thought PVA was primarily for joint compound, not necessarily the drywall board. And until the industry officially rejects PVA sealer as a bonding sealer, its a legitimate component of a coating system in my opinion. So offering it to the OP as an option for sealing bare drywall shouldn't be considered a "shoddy" practice just because a store person has a particular preference for another system. And frankly, if there were any legal issues concerning a coating failure that specified PVA, a contractor had better applied it.
> 
> And we need to remember, that just because everyone on this site is providing the highest level of quality to all of their customers, all of the time, doesn't mean there isn't room for operations that provide a budget friendly option to their customers.
> 
> I would also suggest that if anyone here has problems with painting standards, that they take it up with the people who qualify them, and not the people who follow them. Meanwhile, I'll maintain my integrity while others are changing this shoddy world. LOL.


You still haven't proven that you're following any standards at all, except the standard of 'buying what the people who make PVA primer say.' None of the actual standards I researched said anything about PVA primer. 

Also, you can be budget friendly without being PVA, as has been mentioned.

And again, there's no integrity in blindly following a TDS (at this point I'm not even comfortable saying 'standards' as I've yet to see any that recommend PVA primer).

And you're right, there's room for every kind of paint job out there. But there isn't room for every kind product. We've seen time and again (Restore finishes, anyone? Lead paint?) that just because a product exists doesn't mean it should be used. So, not trying to be an arse to you (though probably am anyways), but I believe it's worth challenging what we do and making sure we can defend it with actual reason.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> You still haven't proven that you're following any standards at all, except the standard of 'buying what the people who make PVA primer say.' None of the actual standards I researched said anything about PVA primer.
> 
> Also, you can be budget friendly without being PVA, as has been mentioned.
> 
> ...


I suppose you were too busy frantically contradicting everything I posted to see that I prefer an alternate primer to PVA, but wouldn't necessarily dismiss it as a compatible bonding coat between joint compound and another sealer or finish coat.

I never insisted that the OP use PVA sealer. It was only when certain membes here suggested that applying PVA was a useless, bad, or otherwise shoddy painting practice, when no evidence has been provided to the contrary, that I decided to defend its legitimate application.

So again, until engineering specifications for painting completely abolish PVA sealer as part of bare drywall treatment, it is still considered a standard, despite what a store person, or hot shot painter (from the North West:whistling2 says about it. Meanwhile, I have also used Zinsser 123 as a bare drywall primer with good results.

Chill people, painting is wrought with preferences!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I hope I'm not coming across as frantic. I'm just trying to give out good information. I did see that you prefer other things to PVA; that's not relevant to the discussion, though. Neither is the fact that you never insisted he use PVA. Didn't accuse you either way about either of those things.

Something existing is not a standard. I'm just asking that you provide some evidence of that being a standard. So far you've not. And you saying it's a standard isn't any more evidence than me saying elsewise. I'm not sure why you're painting everything I'm saying as hubris-riddled opinion when I've diligently provided sources. Meanwhile the only source you've provided proved me correct and you wrong. So which one of us is dragging preference into it?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Drake,

I can't help you if you don't understand that PVA sealer has been a standard bare drywall treatment long before Fresh Start or any other primer you prefer. So if you're looking for a win, you got it. I really don't care.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Drake,
> 
> I can't help you if you don't understand that PVA sealer has been a standard bare drywall treatment long before Fresh Strat or any other primer you prefer. So if you're looking for a win, you got it. I really don't care.


You mean to say, it was used for that purpose? Which is exactly what you're arguing against being a 'standard' (people in this thread stating their experience and preferences) and making light of people for. If your definition of standard is "people using it" then you're right, it does invalidate my argument. And yours.

Sorry to hear the subject doesn't pique your interest any more. Thanks for the discussion, at least. I'll keep trying to help people and the industry be the best it can, even if some people are resistant to change and bereft of care.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Drake,

I'm just happy you didn't leave PT for good.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Drake,
> 
> I can't help you if you don't understand that PVA sealer has been a standard bare drywall treatment long before Fresh Start or any other primer you prefer. So if you're looking for a win, you got it. I really don't care.


Yeah, before 1982!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Yeah, before 1982!


PAC,

Please forward me the memo that states it no longer applies.

Thanks,

Mr. Humble N. Kind


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Scenerio
3 new textured walls:
1 with 1 heavy coat of finish
1 with pva and 1 coat of finish
1 with (insert latex non pva) primer and 1 coat of finish


Those were the options. You neatly evaded answering directly and honestly by inserting your own (redundant I may add) method. The closest you came to an answer was (though effective) a more expensive and labor intensive process. I really don't understand the logistics there. Isn't it just easier and more cost effective to just prime using a traditional latex primer? It hits all the marks for a consistent, quality finish. Which was EXACTLY my point in the first place. 

After all is said and done, this conversation in its entirety (thanks Drake and Pac) (and to you also, CA) has just cemented for me once again that though pva is widely (yet apparently unverifiable) accepted as a standard, the only practical use for it these days is profit. Sad. And I'm struggling to see the integrity in that. Is it actually "integrity" or is that more accurately defined as devotion and perhaps greed depending on ones motivating values. 

And it is demanded that I respect this line of thinking because of the accredited training behind it? 

I can accept it. I can even follow it if for some reason I am forced to (I will protest loudly though). I can not respect it though. Not when my own field experiences (and the experiences of others) are cast aside in favor of blind devotion to an archaic practice that does not take the end user (my trusting customers) into consideration. 

Again, imo, it's just dumb. Throw the book away, go paint a couple of walls and measure it for yourself! (remember the as builts?)


p.s I did say I'd take a beating (or a bashing...whatever), I didn't say i'd do it quietly!!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I really had no idea PVA sealer could muster up so much anger in people. LOL. I suppose I'll just have to carry on with my greedy, blind, dumb and void of any integrity self. Although, I'm almost certain now that I'll be purchasing PVA sealer for my next bare drywall job, even if it means the extra work and material. 

That's the beauty of painting, it's so personal. LOL!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> PAC,
> 
> Please forward me the memo that states it no longer applies.
> 
> ...


Dude bra! It's such ancient history.... I doubt I could find one. But the fact that it isn't even mentioned in any of USG's info? Not even once? Apparently it has completely slipped from their memory. That's not to say that other people setting "industry standards" may still have it in their "standards", but it isn't in USG's anywhere.

As a former aircraft mechanic I can vouch for following the original manufacturers specifications. Unless you like flying in a plane not kept up to spec.But hey houses don't fly so wth? PVA to your hearts content. Your paint supplier will love you while he is counting his money. Maybe he'll get you a new hemp t-shirt or something.


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

Dare I open the box into the "prime after texture" debate???? Would you all have the same suggestions/preferences?

P.S. This has been a very informative and entertaining debate. Thank you everyone!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I really had no idea PVA sealer could muster up so much anger in people. LOL. I suppose I'll just have to carry on with my greedy, blind, dumb and void of any integrity self. Although, I'm almost certain now that I'll be purchasing PVA sealer for my next bare drywall job, even if it means the extra work and material.
> 
> That's the beauty of painting, it's so personal. LOL!


You don't need to paint us as angry and frantic. We're just having a discussion, same as you.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I just texted my P&L rep and asked him if he had a PVA sealer I could get from him. You know what his response was? "Why would you want that?". I'm waiting to get a response from California. (the paint company, not the state.)


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## csbeepee (Jun 29, 2015)

I never once thought of these New Construction projects that I am doing as anything other than quick, easy money that would keep our guys busy. All I wanted was the quickest way to get in and out. 

We are a new business (who needs to make a name for ourselves) and want more than ever to get into the High-end residential and Commercial world. Once I get people who want to pay me for the added work/material, I will do it the "correct" way. 

Unfortunately, the market I am in does not allow me much room for margin. I pay my guys better than most in the area too. Maybe that is a big part of my problem. We have a shortage of quality painters in the area, and I thought I would attract them with higher pay ($15 to start for 2-3 years experience). So far, I've been through over 20 guys in 8 months and have none of my original guys. 

Anyways... I am making money in NC with one fat coat, backrolled. I'll be sticking with that until someone wants to pay me for something else. Until then, thank you for your responses! You'll see me on the forum more often. I really appreciate everyone's willingness to share knowledge.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Dude bra! It's such ancient history.... I doubt I could find one. But the fact that it isn't even mentioned in any of USG's info? Not even once? Apparently it has completely slipped from their memory. That's not to say that other people setting "industry standards" may still have it in their "standards", but it isn't in USG's anywhere.
> 
> As a former aircraft mechanic I can vouch for following the original manufacturers specifications. Unless you like flying in a plane not kept up to spec.But hey houses don't fly so wth? PVA to your hearts content. Your paint supplier will love you while he is counting his money. Maybe he'll get you a new hemp t-shirt or something.


Trust me, I won't be losing any sleep over it. BTW would you suggest Glidden's PVA?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> You don't need to paint us as angry and frantic. We're just having a discussion, same as you.


I'm certainly not the one on a crusade to abolish PVA. In contrast, I would say that those who are, seem pretty passionate, if not down right fanatic about abolishing it. Or, admonishing those who use it. Very sad.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

csbeepee said:


> I never once thought of these New Construction projects that I am doing as anything other than quick, easy money that would keep our guys busy. All I wanted was the quickest way to get in and out.
> 
> We are a new business (who needs to make a name for ourselves) and want more than ever to get into the High-end residential and Commercial world. Once I get people who want to pay me for the added work/material, I will do it the "correct" way.
> 
> ...


Awesome! I completely understand what your preference is, given where you're at in business and your strategy for improvement in the future.

Good luck to you!

CA "a reasonable man" painter.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I'm certainly not the one on a crusade to abolish PVA. In contrast, I would say that those who are, seem pretty passionate, if not down right fanatic about abolishing it. Or, admonishing those who use it. Very sad.


Why the obsession with dismissing those who disagree with you as crazy crusaders? Can we not disagree without trying to dismiss each other? Fanatic? I presented evidence and cited sources. That's common courtesy in a discussion.

I'm pretty confident I haven't admonished anyone at all for using PVA primer, ever, also. Why sad? Why the obsessions with writing off everyone who disagrees?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Why the obsession with dismissing those who disagree with you as crazy crusaders? Can we not disagree without trying to dismiss each other? Fanatic? I presented evidence and cited sources. That's common courtesy in a discussion.
> 
> I'm pretty confident I haven't admonished anyone at all for using PVA primer, ever, also. Why sad? Why the obsessions with writing off everyone who disagrees?


Your so called evidence did not convince me that using PVA was a "bad" painting practice. Sorry if you see that as a dismissal. Besides, most members in this thread agree with you. You should be happy about that!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I really had no idea PVA sealer could muster up so much anger in people. LOL. I suppose I'll just have to carry on with my greedy, blind, dumb and void of any integrity self. Although, I'm almost certain now that I'll be purchasing PVA sealer for my next bare drywall job, even if it means the extra work and material.
> 
> That's the beauty of painting, it's so personal. LOL!


My apologies to you, Sir, if my linguistic skills lack tact. It is not my intent to condemn, belittle, or admonish anyone or any practice. If you have found my abrasive prose to be personally offensive, I assure you it was certainly not my intent.

However, considering that you still have dodged the question, I have to consider that the answer is in the silence.

Again, it is not that the use of PVA is "bad". The assertion is that it is inferior.

I have also expressed that (ime) IF a painter is going to prime new drywall, for exactly the same amount of effort and only a few more dollars per gallon, it would be prudent to choose one of the vast array of inexpensive primers available to us over choosing pva. The reasoning behind this is that it does what pva does (bonding), as well as lending itself nicely to the next steps in the process thus creating a more uniform finish. A higher quality of primer also tends to be cost effective (pays for itself sometimes) in the end. (experience....I have lost money/ labor hours repainting full walls and or ceilings due to inconsistent sheen builds at punch. It's a real bummer.Just following specs, and with no compensation for following "best practices".):thumbup: 

If you'd like to use Glidden pva I think that's great! Knock yourself out, take a look at Gripper though...eh, just not that much more expensive and will probably shave a few hours off your labor in the end. Might even save a few bucks on top coat as the finish will glide rather than be absorbed...

It's simple. Nothing personal. No need for an emotional plea (that frankly, seems more like a tactical diversion...:whistling2 It's just paint, not rocket science.  

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PACman said:


> I just texted my P&L rep and asked him if he had a PVA sealer I could get from him. You know what his response was? "Why would you want that?". I'm waiting to get a response from California. (the paint company, not the state.)


That's halarious!!!!!!


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Your so called evidence did not convince me that using PVA was a "bad" painting practice. Sorry if you see that as a dismissal. Besides, most members in this thread agree with you. You should be happy about that!


Disagreeing is not dismissal. I'm not sure why the phrase "so called" (other than as another dismissal tactic); most of the evidence (and it was evidence, it was professionals and the very standards you yourself referenced) came from you, not me. Unless you're saying your own evidence was poor?

Attempting to color us as fanatic/giving in to peer pressure/angry/frantic is dismissal, though. Different things. I'm not here for people to agree with me anyways. I'm posting because I want to learn and I want others to learn. If we all just plod along accepting everything no one will learn or grow.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

PACman said:


> I was using the numbers you posted earlier. If you are getting it for $18, and the drywall manufacturers spec says one coat backrolled, I doubt that there is anything that would make this job more profitable for you than to streamline and speed up the application somehow. As long as the finish is acceptable you're on the right track and using a PVA sealer isn't going to help save money at all. No sense stirring things up to save maybe pennies on the entire job.
> 
> Except arguing about PVA is fun for some people I guess.


It's entertaining, that's for sure...lol


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I had one architect on a commercial project call out "white lead paste" for filling nail holes. He'd been using that specification since he was an architectural intern, back when it was legal.

Industry standards change with time. I'd expect such resistance to change from the old guys here, like daArch and RH. I'm surprised to see it from CA, who I consider to be a relative youngster.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Guess I'm playing right into my role as "product of my generation." :thumbup:

Which is kind of a role reversal for me; I tend to usually agree with you "old folks"


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Yea, I'm still employed and marketable because I'm old and resistant to change. LOL. You guys are too much. I thought maybe Gough would be neutral in this discussion, but anytime there's an opportunity to be contrary to anything I have to say, he's right there. Nature of internet personalities I guess. 

Frankly, you guys and gals aren't so unique in your solidarity. I'm subjected to the same ridicule amongst my own peers. But I keep moving forward in my career despite it. I don't know what's wrong with me.

But enough about me and my trials and tribulations. How about you guys! Marvelous indeed! I wish you all continued success and hope you all make the changes you deem necessary.

LPC,

If I worked for you, I would apply exactly what you wanted.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Yea, I'm still employed and marketable because I'm old and resistant to change. LOL. You guys are too much. I thought maybe Gough would be neutral in this discussion, but anytime there's an opportunity to be contrary to anything I have to say, he's right there. Nature of internet personalities I guess.
> 
> Frankly, you guys and gals aren't so unique in your solidarity. I'm subjected to the same ridicule amongst my own peers. But I keep moving forward in my career despite it. I don't know what's wrong with me.
> 
> ...


Me, contrary? No way!

My comment was primarily (get it) meant to be ironic. Your reply confirms the need for an "irony" font.

For many years, our go-to system for bare GWB was either PPG#6-2 primer or BM Fresh Start #2300. Should we ever encounter new GWB again, we'd use one of those primers.

To us, the modest cost of using a dependable primer offsets the risks possible without it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> I had one architect on a commercial project call out "white lead paste" for filling nail holes. He'd been using that specification since he was an architectural intern, back when it was legal.
> 
> Industry standards change with time. I'd expect such resistance to change from the old guys here, like daArch and RH. I'm surprised to see it from CA, who I consider to be a relative youngster.


Somewhere around 25 years ago I was given a set of plans and spec book for a high end residential. In the painting section of the specs was an explicit prohibition of using sprayers or rollers.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> Somewhere around 25 years ago I was given a set of plans and spec book for a high end residential. In the painting section of the specs was an explicit prohibition of using sprayers or rollers.


Nice.

We've had clients insist that we paint ceilings and walls by brush, no rollers, and we've had commercial spec books that prohibited spraying.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> Nice.
> 
> We've had clients insist that we paint ceilings and walls by brush, no rollers, and we've had commercial spec books that prohibited spraying.


Probably called for PVA primer on GWB, too. Lol

Sorry CA.:jester:


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Did PAC allude earlier in thread that he knew of a high solids PVA sealer?

So whatever one thinks of PVAs, there must be a wide gap between the lowest quality PVA and the highest quality PVA.

If one were to test all of the PVAs on the market against each other, what would be the top 2 or 3 highest performing PVA drywall sealers?


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## pacific paint (Nov 21, 2015)

PVA primer is a must use product under the texture for light orange peel finish using quality products. If not used you will see all the joints and no amount of paint can fix it.
The surface paper and mud are 2 different substrates, the PVA makes the surface even.
The texture people know this.
Now if its a heavy knockdown no primer is needed some of that goes on at about a 1/4 inch thick. If you are using quality products 2 coats back rolled would be the best way,so that you don't have any touch up problems.

now if you are using the cheapest product known in the paint world SW southwest builders who cares. The flat can be applied by anyone who can pull a spray gun trigger no back rolling even runs disappear. If using what they call a satin touch up is a big problem. It just keeps getting more gloss the more you apply. 

But when you aren't making any money doing trac homes who cares. If the hack forman says it looks good keep on doing it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just when you thought it was over. LOL


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Just when you thought it was over. LOL


This is actually pretty civil compared to what's going on in the Bee Zone. I think blood may have been spilt.


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## superdavie (Dec 29, 2015)

*master of the your trade*



ProWallGuy said:


> Exactly.


id like to battle of the mind w u sometime. I think i could learn something from u., give me a chancedcox [email protected]


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

superdavie;1076058[COLOR=red said:


> ]id like to battle of the mind w u sometime[/COLOR]. I think i could learn something from u., give me a chancedcox [email protected]


you will lose this battle:yes:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Trust me, I won't be losing any sleep over it. BTW would you suggest Glidden's PVA?


I'd suggest skim milk over Glidden's PVA.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> I just texted my P&L rep and asked him if he had a PVA sealer I could get from him. You know what his response was? "Why would you want that?". I'm waiting to get a response from California. (the paint company, not the state.)


I don't think my California paint rep actually knew what it was.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> I just texted my P&L rep and asked him if he had a PVA sealer I could get from him. You know what his response was? "Why would you want that?". I'm waiting to get a response from California. (the paint company, not the state.)


And I answered my P&L rep by saying "because I want to make a 5hit load of money off of it like everyone else does. I got a guy in Norcal ON THE HOOK DUDE!"


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> I had one architect on a commercial project call out "white lead paste" for filling nail holes. He'd been using that specification since he was an architectural intern, back when it was legal.
> 
> Industry standards change with time. I'd expect such resistance to change from the old guys here, like daArch and RH. I'm surprised to see it from CA, who I consider to be a relative youngster.


There isn't a mil spec that exists that is newer then 1960. Many of the other finishing spec's out there are nearly as old and don't take into account the superior drywall and paint technology of today. No one makes any money updating them so it never gets done. None of the people writing the specs wants to use their time and effort to do it, so the specs stay the same long after they have been technologically exceeded.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> Me, contrary? No way!
> 
> My comment was primarily (get it) meant to be ironic. Your reply confirms the need for an "irony" font.
> 
> ...


6-2 is one of the most underrated products out there as far as i'm concerned. The price versus performance ratio is excellent.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> Did PAC allude earlier in thread that he knew of a high solids PVA sealer?
> 
> So whatever one thinks of PVAs, there must be a wide gap between the lowest quality PVA and the highest quality PVA.
> 
> If one were to test all of the PVAs on the market against each other, what would be the top 2 or 3 highest performing PVA drywall sealers?


There is very little difference in the solids of PVA sealers, but considering that some of them have twice the solids of the cheap ones...... kind of like the difference between skim milk and whole milk. Imagine the two of them sprayed side by side on bare drywall. That's kind of what the difference is between the best and the worst PVA sealers.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

pacific paint said:


> PVA primer is a must use product under the texture for light orange peel finish using quality products. If not used you will see all the joints and no amount of paint can fix it.
> The surface paper and mud are 2 different substrates, the PVA makes the surface even.
> The texture people know this.
> Now if its a heavy knockdown no primer is needed some of that goes on at about a 1/4 inch thick. If you are using quality products 2 coats back rolled would be the best way,so that you don't have any touch up problems.
> ...


It definitely has a use on high end texture jobs. It can alleviate a lot of potential problems and in that situation it is worth using. Sometimes you absolutely have to use it under sprayed textures.


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