# ScuffX Issue



## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Originally painted alkyd enamel cabinets. Cleaned, sanded and primed with Stix. First coat of Scuffx did the same thing as shown. Sanded and cleaned and now the 2nd coat is doing the same. Any ideas? Almost looks like solvent pop.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Oh boy. Here we go again. Better walk us through your cleaning/sanding process. Humidity/temperature. Microfiber cloth. ? Time between coats.. So many reasons this can happen. And it sucks every time!😆


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

I went through the ringer on a couple jobs with the same problem. Had to sand about 30 doors down to bare wood on one.

For me it happened on oak doors, where I power sanded (220) between two prime coats (smart prime) in hopes of burying some of the wood grain. The problem only went away if I only hand sanded in between coats, and didn't try to power sand. The real hassle was I had to take the doors all the way down to bare wood. Even small areas with a little bit of primer left would telegraph the problem all the way through the top coat.

I never did solve it, but it has something to do with the process of power sanding. I couldn't pin down for sure if it was a sandpaper problem, but I was using the blue Norton 3x, which is stearated. I did try to recreate the problem on a different job with Emerald trim urethane, and couldn't make it happen. So it could be something to do with scuff X, but I haven't had a chance to do any more testing since then. Another head scratcher was it only ever happened on the front sides of the doors. So I also suspected it could be something to do with cleaners.


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## pcarey009 (Feb 6, 2021)

I have experienced the same thing but concluded that my problem was probably the primer. Try Smart Prime or XIM bonding primer. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Oh boy. Here we go again. Better walk us through your cleaning/sanding process. Humidity/temperature. Microfiber cloth. ? Time between coats.. So many reasons this can happen. And it sucks every time!😆


It's not my job, was trying to help out a friend and said I'd ask around. When I zoom in on the pictures it looks like out-gassing.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

monarchski said:


> It's not my job, was trying to help out a friend and said I'd ask around. When I zoom in on the pictures it looks like out-gassing.


Oh sure. Asking for a friend.. mmhmm.. JK. Looks like it's on there pretty thick. I wouldn't rule out some out-gassing. But again, you would have to know all of their detailed procedures to really know..🤷‍♀️


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

pcarey009 said:


> I have experienced the same thing but concluded that my problem was probably the primer. Try Smart Prime or XIM bonding primer.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I actually had the problem with smart Prime.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I had a nightmare of a time with Smart Prime and Breakthrough. The only way I could fix it without completely sanding it off was to shoot them with Bin.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Today was going to be the day. The day I was going to buy some ScuffX for tomorrow instead of Regal. But now, once again I've been sceered off trying something new. New to me at least.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Today was going to be the day. The day I was going to buy some ScuffX for tomorrow instead of Regal. But now, once again I've been sceered off trying something new. New to me at least.


That's too bad, because a majority of the time it's been really great to use. The common denominators when I've had problems were smart prime, oak cabinets, and power sanding.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I had a nightmare of a time with Smart Prime and Breakthrough. The only way I could fix it without completely sanding it off was to shoot them with Bin.


That's interesting. What was the substrate, and did you have similar problems to the OP photo? And also did you hand sand or use a power sander?

I could first coat doors with smart prime, then power sand with 220. Then I would do another coat of smart Prime and it would look great. Then just a light hand sand and top coat, and that is where the problems would begin. If I removed power saving from the process I wouldn't have any problems. Almost drove me nuts!

I haven't had the chance to do further testing to pinpoint the problem but I hope to eventually. The fact that you had problems make me suspect smart Prime as the primary culprit, or maybe just the combination of smart Prime, power sanding, and oak.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fromthenorthwest said:


> That's interesting. What was the substrate, and did you have similar problems to the OP photo? And also did you hand sand or use a power sander?
> 
> I could first coat doors with smart prime, then power sand with 220. Then I would do another coat of smart Prime and it would look great. Then just a light hand sand and top coat, and that is where the problems would begin. If I removed power saving from the process I wouldn't have any problems. Almost drove me nuts!
> 
> I haven't had the chance to do further testing to pinpoint the problem but I hope to eventually. The fact that you had problems make me suspect smart Prime as the primary culprit, or maybe just the combination of smart Prime, power sanding, and oak.


Did you by chance use vacuum dust extraction when power sanding?

The reason I ask is that the vacuum pressure can draw moisture from within the wood to the board faces, particularly with red oak, creating vapor pressure at the partially sealed pores which can result in microbubbles and cratering at the pores. 

I’ve you’ve ever power sanded tung oil or BLO sealers with dust extraction you’ll often see oil bleedback which wasn’t there before sanding.. even vacuuming can draw the solvents to the surface….same applies to waterborne finishes if the moisture wasn’t allowed to out-gass before sanding, although it wouldn’t be visibly obvious with water unlike with oil.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Redux said:


> Did you by chance use vacuum dust extraction when power sanding?
> 
> The reason I ask is that the vacuum pressure can draw moisture from within the wood to the board faces, particularly with red oak, creating vapor pressure at the partially sealed pores which can result in microbubbles and cratering at the pores.
> 
> I’ve you’ve ever power sanded tung oil or BLO sealers with dust extraction you’ll often see oil bleedback which wasn’t there before sanding.. even vacuuming can draw the solvents to the surface….same applies to waterborne finishes if the moisture wasn’t allowed to out-gass before sanding, although it wouldn’t be visibly obvious with water unlike with oil.


No kidding? That could very well be the problem, as I was using vacuum extraction hooked up to the sander. That could explain why I didn't have issues when hand sanding And the microbubble problems were often in shapes that appeared to be areas of raised grain. I haven't tried power sanding without dust extraction in my experiments yet. I will give that a try next time I have a chance to test. Thanks for the insight Redux. 

Of course if that we're true I wouldn't be able to use my brand new Festool midi on oak jobs! Nevertheless I hope that's the case, it would be great to finally figure this out.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> No kidding? That could very well be the problem, as I was using vacuum extraction hooked up to the sander. That could explain why I didn't have issues when hand sanding And the microbubble problems were often in shapes that appeared to be areas of raised grain. I haven't tried power sanding without dust extraction in my experiments yet. I will give that a try next time I have a chance to test. Thanks for the insight Redux.
> 
> Of course if that we're true I wouldn't be able to use my brand new Festool midi on oak jobs! Nevertheless I hope that's the case, it would be great to finally figure this out.


 Meh. We use the festool sanders with vac on oak all the time..


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fromthenorthwest said:


> No kidding? That could very well be the problem, as I was using vacuum extraction hooked up to the sander. That could explain why I didn't have issues when hand sanding And the microbubble problems were often in shapes that appeared to be areas of raised grain. I haven't tried power sanding without dust extraction in my experiments yet. I will give that a try next time I have a chance to test. Thanks for the insight Redux.
> 
> Of course if that we're true I wouldn't be able to use my brand new Festool midi on oak jobs! Nevertheless I hope that's the case, it would be great to finally figure this out.


It’s actually encouraged by some varnish manufacturers to vacuum wood first then give it time to rest which encourages desorption of moisture from the wood to reduce the chances for vapor bubbles in the clear film finishes.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Meh. We use the festool sanders with vac on oak all the time..


I'm starting to think it's not one factor alone, but a combination of things in my process. Somewhere between power sanding, smart prime, and scuff-x there is something that doesn't agree.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Redux said:


> It’s actually encouraged by some varnish manufacturers to vacuum wood first then give it time to rest which encourages desorption of moisture from the wood to reduce the chances for vapor bubbles in the clear film finishes.


So by that reasoning, letting the doors sit after sand/vacuuming for an extra day or so might reduce the likelihood of issues?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

I'm hoping to pick up some oak doors to do some playing around with, using different primers and topcoats and trying to recreate the problem.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> I'm starting to think it's not one factor alone, but a combination of things in my process. Somewhere between power sanding, smart prime, and scuff-x there is something that doesn't agree.


Edit: Now that you mention it, we only power sand before primer, and those sit over night. We then hand sand between primers..That's an interesting theory especially if there is some heavy cleaning/washing going on..


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

fromthenorthwest said:


> I'm hoping to pick up some oak doors to do some playing around with, using different primers and topcoats and trying to recreate the problem.


I'd be very interested in hearing the results.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Edit: Now that you mention it, we only power sand before primer, and those sit over night. We then hand sand between primers..That's an interesting theory especially if there is some heavy cleaning/washing going on..


That's actually the same way we do it. First coat primer, then 180 or 220 and second coat primer. The 2nd coat primer looks fine. Then it's just light hand sanding the rest of the way. Then the problem starts in the top coats. Wish I had time to experiment but haven't had a chance yet, I'm sure it's something between one of those three factors though.

We do a pretty thorough clean, there's definitely a water / no-rinse tsp mix that doesn't dry out for a bit. I've noticed some guys only clean when visibly necessary. I might switch to that way as well. I was always concerned about not cleaning enough and having problems, but the extra moisture from the cleaner might definitely be part of the problem.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> That's actually the same way we do it. First coat primer, then 180 or 220 and second coat primer. The 2nd coat primer looks fine. Then it's just light hand sanding the rest of the way. Then the problem starts in the top coats. Wish I had time to experiment but haven't had a chance yet, I'm sure it's something between one of those three factors though.
> 
> We do a pretty thorough clean, there's definitely a water / no-rinse tsp mix that doesn't dry out for a bit. I've noticed some guys only clean when visibly necessary. I might switch to that way as well. I was always concerned about not cleaning enough and having problems, but the extra moisture from the cleaner might definitely be part of the problem.


 I wouldn't skip the cleaning process. Even if not visible. Spraying is so fickle, you really need to do all the steps regardless..


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

monarchski said:


> I'd be very interested in hearing the results.


Might be a bit yet but I'm hoping to make that happen.


finishesbykevyn said:


> I wouldn't skip the cleaning process. Even if not visible. Spraying is so fickle, you really need to do all the steps regardless..


Yeah you're probably right about that.


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

I learned a lot with these thoughtful comments. My only contribution is maybe a call to BM support might be helpful? If you don't get a knowledgeable person tell 'em you want a Scuff-x expert! 😉


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I was reading some patents a while back on scuff resistant resin systems, and I do believe Scuff-X may use a high percentage of wax seeded latex as part of its proprietary resin system. I wonder if the wax can come unbound by some means such as heat due to friction from power sanding..


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Redux said:


> I was reading some patents a while back on scuff resistant resin systems, and I do believe Scuff-X may use a high percentage of wax seeded latex as part of its proprietary resin system. I wonder if the wax can come unbound by some means such as heat due to friction from power sanding..


I remember @cocomonkeynuts saying they had some type of proprietary wax resin. Do you think that would be the case even if no power sanding occurred after the primer?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fromthenorthwest said:


> I remember @cocomonkeynuts saying they had some type of proprietary wax resin. Do you think that would be the case even if no power sanding occurred after the primer?


No, wax in general wouldn’t cause micro-bubbles.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It looks like it may be too thick.


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