# vibrant red application questions BM product.



## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

ok so im painting a office space, my client is a really happy over excited kind of guy and wants to do very vibrant red and orange colors.

my question is,
1. the colors he picked were BM (warm comfort 2010-20) and a (orange nectar 2013-20) they all state they need a foundation coat of specified primer to achieve the desired color. Am i going to have a hell of a time getting the finish coat to look good (no flashing/picture framing if i prime) how many coats do these bright colors usually take to cover? prime+2 finish? 

2. what happens if i don't prime and just do 2 finish coats?

3. what things should i stay away from? BM says they are white base paints to start off with....General paint says the have a white base paint and also a red base paint, but they are not sure if they can match the specified color in the red base?

4. i don't want clear base because they will take a million coats to apply...

suggestions please!

thanks,

-Mitch


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

Ask to see the BM base that goes with the formula for both colors. BM's website might provide information different than a paint clerk. Best IMO to check as many sources as is necessary. Easy stuff and better than blowing the job with an underbid because some dude behind a counter is hot to move a couple gallons of paint. 

The paint is fine. It does what it does. 

If indeed the base is a "white" those colors are going to be pastels or close to pastels.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Are you using Aura paint? I have yet to have a problem with reds or oranges using Aura. (and it's no secret here that I am not a BM fan)


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Retired has absolutely no clue what he is talking about yet again. Obviously he can't read as your post stated " vibrant colors". I highly doubt those are made in a pastel base. In fact they are made in a base 4, ultra deep base. The color foundation would be a good choice with those colors. 1 coat of the appropriate primer for each color followed by 2 finish coats using Aura. Should cover without any issues.

Once again retired jumps the gun as soon as someone says BM. He obviously has little to no experience using the products, and constantly belittles the the store employees. He would definitely not be one of my customers, and would most likely be asked to leave my store about 3 seconds after entering.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

bikerboy said:


> Are you using Aura paint? I have yet to have a problem with reds or oranges using Aura. (and it's no secret here that I am not a BM fan)


well thats the thing... i haven't picked my line of paint yet..... after some short research i have found that a grey undercoat prime is best for these vibrant paints... but still after that i don't want to get into applying 3 coats of finish, i will be there for a long time and well i have to say it would be underbid if i had to do anything more than a prime plus 2 finish. 

argggg, maybe i can convince him to paint other colors:blink:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Glad we cleared that up :yes:


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Retired has absolutely no clue what he is talking about yet again. Obviously he can't read as your post stated " vibrant colors". I highly doubt those are made in a pastel base. In fact they are made in a base 4, ultra deep base. The color foundation would be a good choice with those colors. 1 coat of the appropriate primer for each color followed by 2 finish coats using Aura. Should cover without any issues.


Not trying to start anything, but what happened to "two coats, any color" with Aura. Which is all I have yet to use.


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Retired has absolutely no clue what he is talking about yet again. Obviously he can't read as your post stated " vibrant colors". I highly doubt those are made in a pastel base. In fact they are made in a base 4, ultra deep base. The color foundation would be a good choice with those colors. 1 coat of the appropriate primer for each color followed by 2 finish coats using Aura. Should cover without any issues.
> 
> Once again retired jumps the gun as soon as someone says BM. He obviously has little to no experience using the products, and constantly belittles the the store employees. He would definitely not be one of my customers, and would most likely be asked to leave my store about 3 seconds after entering.



your post seems helpful, so what your saying is a undercoat primer plus 2 finish coats of aura would cover? im reading a grey primer is best used when using these colors as a undercoat? or is a tinted red primer better?

thanks,
Mitch


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> Not trying to start anything, but what happened to "two coats, any color" with Aura. Which is all I have yet to use.


Exactly, although certain colors recommend the color foundation primer. The formula book tells us which colors require the primer. Typically its the vibrant reds, oranges, and yellows. I have yet to see the primear needed on the Affinity colors.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TrueColors said:


> your post seems helpful, so what your saying is a undercoat primer plus 2 finish coats of aura would cover? im reading a grey primer is best used when using these colors as a undercoat? or is a tinted red primer better?
> 
> thanks,
> Mitch


With Aura the colors recommend a primer formula for us, not gray. The foundation primers can be mixed in pre colored bases, red and yellow ( for the orange most likely ) these primers start out heavily pigmented so you get great hide. The finish adds brightness to the color. If you choose to use Aura, definitely go with the recommended primer.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

TrueColors,

For what its worth, I use Aura for any difficult colors. Its an easy sell. Just tell the customer its cheaper for the paint, than the labor for extra coats.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

If manufacturer is suggesting you the use of an undercoat, you should follow that... The problem is not the paint itself, it is the base required for the bright colour, you can't sometimes get an orange colour under red base (red it's too dark for orange, check on your colour wheel) you might need to go with a clear base but you need an undercoat in order to get away with one coat of tinted primer and 2 coats of paint (and you still might need more than 2 coats no matter what the paint brand is, sometimes it happens sometimes it doesn't).
Never underbid a job with vibrant colours, you never know what you have to deal with.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> TrueColors,
> 
> For what its worth, I use Aura for any difficult colors. Its an easy sell. Just tell the customer its cheaper for the paint, than the labor for extra coats.


I agree. This is one of those scenarios where it would be very beneficial. Not only for the better hide, but also better durability, and touch up capability. Nothing worse than having a killer paint job ruined in a few months because someone wiped a spot and now it looks terrible.

Also the touch up is great. If they need you to come back in a year or so to fix scuffs or scrapes, it should be much easier.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

How many coats are specified in your contract?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Are you guys certain you need the foundation primer with Aura? Says here from the site:
Aura® Matte Waterborne Interior Paint (522)
Extreme hide, never more than two coats in any color
Provides a mildew resistant coating
Color Lock® Technology, no color rub-off
Stains wash off easily
Excellent touch up
(Self priming) 
Easy application
Long lasting fresh look appearance
Easy clean up
This product has been certified under the GREENGUARD Standard for Low Emitting Products and the GREENGUARD for Children & SchoolsSM product certification programs.

There is no mention of a disclaimer after "never more than two coats in any color". KEYWORD HERE is "ANY COLOR". Benjamin Moore certainly wouldn't leave out the words **over a tinted primer where applicable... would they?


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> How many coats are specified in your contract?



I don't think he has a contract :whistling2:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

From the can " Aura matte finish is self priming for most colors and surfaces. Consult with your retailer concerning deep colors that require use of Aura color foundation. Ask your retailer about our special purpose primers for specific surfaces or if the surface to be painted is water stained, smoke damaged, or very slick.


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

The better solution for our friend Mitch might be found here:

http://www.myperfectcolor.com/v/vspfiles/benjamin-moore-paint-colors-index.asp

The Benny Moore stores in my old hood are company stores. One of the great bennies was they would give those samples to pros along with MSDS and tech sheets, phone numbers to talk paint with the chemists and anything else needed to keep the real applicators and contractors happy. 

Benny Moore paint? Good stuff. Not all of course like anything else. Regal is great paint. Alkyd base Satin Impervo and Ironclad are great. StaysClear is IMO the best acrylic poly on the market. 

Not a clue where Mitch is or is from. He has legitmate questions and leaves room for alternatives. IMO, what he might do if possible, is to seek out one of the BM company stores for some really straight answers to his questions. In my hood they never treated anyone like they were some mullet in a plastic sack with sticky gills and sunken eyes just to sell a couple of gallons of paint that might or might not cover in who knows how many coats.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> From the can " Aura matte finish is self priming for most colors and surfaces. Consult with your retailer concerning deep colors that require use of Aura color foundation. Ask your retailer about our special purpose primers for specific surfaces or if the surface to be painted is water stained, smoke damaged, or very slick.


Interesting. The Benjamin Moore site is stating never more than 2 coats with any color but according to BM, deep colors are not considered "any color" so then the original problem people have with getting "those colors" to cover still exists with Aura and thats an expensive solution to get no color rub off. Good thing I found that out. I'll keep Aura in mind the next time I get my first request in 25+ years for paint that doesn't rub off. 

I wrote a long article a few years ago about how paint companies make all sorts of bs claims. At the time, Benjamin Moore wasn't one of them.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do believe that the BM reps will tell you that if the foundation primer is needed, you only need one top coat after the primer so, 1+1=2. Make sure the formula provided for the primer is close to the final color. The store may need to tweak it a bit. The foundation primer is really nice to work with FYI (only used it once though).


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I don't think he has a contract :whistling2:


estimate was for 3 coats, as i knew these vibrant colors needed a primer+2 coats.

well it seems i have enough information to help me out with the job. thanks to all that helped out, i really appreciate this site and peoples hands on experience.
i will go to my local BM rep and see what i can do, best to have some research instead of going in blind.

thanks,
Mitch


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*Red/Yellow bases...*

I'm at an ACE store, and ACE has had Red & Yellow bases for many years.

* Obviously, as NCP has said, these bases have better hide to them.
* Reason...the colored pigment is added at the factory...AS A POWDER...NOT as a ton of liquid colorant.
* As many of you know, the "artificial" colorants like Blues/Reds/Magentas/Bright Yellows, are fairly sheer.
* Therefore, Red & Yellow bases are much more opaque than an equivalent color in a Neutral/Accent/Ultra-deep tintbase.
* For real vivid colors though, even with a pre-colored tint-base, a "near paint color" tinted primer normally ensures stopping @ 2 topcoats.

Faron


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

DeanV said:


> I do believe that the BM reps will tell you that if the foundation primer is needed, you only need one top coat after the primer so, 1+1=2. Make sure the formula provided for the primer is close to the final color. The store may need to tweak it a bit. The foundation primer is really nice to work with FYI (only used it once though).


 
This still leaves users in the dark about who is the better source of valid information, the paintmaker, in this case Benjamin Moore, or the reps which we must assume to include paint clerks. 

Chief thinkum some whiteeyes speak with forked tongue. Chief thinkum if great Chief (honorary) Moore say warpaint cover in one, paint schlepper selling firewater to braves with more water than fire.


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## dvab (Mar 12, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Interesting. The Benjamin Moore site is stating never more than 2 coats with any color but according to BM, deep colors are not considered "any color" so then the original problem people have with getting "those colors" to cover still exists with Aura and thats an expensive solution to get no color rub off. Good thing I found that out. I'll keep Aura in mind the next time I get my first request in 25+ years for paint that doesn't rub off.
> 
> I wrote a long article a few years ago about how paint companies make all sorts of bs claims. At the time, Benjamin Moore wasn't one of them.


The foundation is considered one of the two coats.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

dvab said:


> The foundation is considered one of the two coats.


I would never do only one coat ( 1 primer + 1 finish ) that's not in my book, always one coat of tinted primer and minimum two of finish.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I would never do only one coat ( 1 primer + 1 finish ) that's not in my book, always one coat of tinted primer and minimum two of finish.


It depends on the product being used. If its covered, and in spec, number of coats is irrelevant.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Retired said:


> This still leaves users in the dark about who is the better source of valid information, the paintmaker, in this case Benjamin Moore, or the reps which we must assume to include paint clerks.


When in doubt you can always call the manufacturer direct and talk to the actual techs/developers.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Exactly, although certain colors recommend the color foundation primer. The formula book tells us which colors require the primer. Typically its the vibrant reds, oranges, and yellows. I have yet to see the primear needed on the Affinity colors.


 Well my first experience with a deep base red in aura I should have used a grey primer. It was over a medium tan wall in eggshell and it took three coats. I love BM paint so I am no hater.


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## graypaint (Aug 28, 2010)

*Super Spec + Aura*

I usually go with Super Spec primer tinted as dark gray as possible, then two coats of Aura. Never have had a problem, with any color.


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