# Owner wanted Zero Paint, I used Low VOC, now what?



## jlei523 (Mar 12, 2015)

The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.

Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.

The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jlei523 said:


> The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.
> 
> Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.
> 
> The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?


Read through a couple of the current VOC threads. VOCs are about photochemical smog, not indoor air quality, at least as the term VOC applies to paint.

I'd like to find the original study quoted below, because it would be handy information to share with clients like yours, who have bought into the myth.

"The “Paint Volatile Organic Compound Emissions and Volatile Organic Compound Content Comparison Study” conducted by the Underwriter’s Laboratory found that oftentimes paints with less VOC content had more VOC emissions and vice versa. There was no way to predict from what was in the paint, what mind end up in the air.

According to the study, “the results demonstrate that paint VOC content should not be used as a proxy for paint VOC emissions into indoor air, as there is no correlation between the two measures. These results demonstrate that low VOC content is not necessarily indicative of acceptable VOC emissions for specific compounds with known health impacts. Thus, building designers, owners and operators,or occupants may be provided a false sense of security regarding the quality of the indoor air.”"

I think the short answer is, "no", but good luck with your client.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I have to ask why if the customer asked for zero VOC and you used low VOC? We have had customers ask us and we get zero VOC paints. If it's products we do not use we give zero warranty.

Unfortunately this is on you now. You either need to have a talk with them about it, maybe compromise about charging them, atleast get the HO to cover some of the additional cost. They may or may not go for it.

Another option is get a paint rep to come to the site and explain the difference to the HO. I find letting the reps get involved with an issue like this will set the HO mind at ease.


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

150 grms/ltr is considered high by today's standards.

However, what volatiles your paint choice had are long gone by now. You need to explain what "VOC" even means to the homeowner. Re-paint? It will accomplish nothing.

I have found that interior designers, specifiers, etc are driving the low VOC issue perhaps faster than the government regulators. Misinformation will do nothing but hurt the industry.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Looks like a time to use both diplomacy and facts.

Talk to the HO (in a non combative, defensive manner) and discover what his health concerns are and what he knows about VOC emissions both when wet and dry and where he learned what he knows.

If it appears that he has drawn his conclusions from less than scientific and reliable sources attempt to steer him towards the type of info that Gough and CRS have presented.

With luck he will understand the real facts and be happy that you provided a safe product.

If he refuses to explore the scientific facts and stands fast on the fact that he requested one type of coating and you provided another, you may not have a leg to stand on.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Wow, I don't think any responders to this post are correct!! VOC's have everything to do with indoor air quality. Everything from carpet, to paint, to the glue used in furniture has a measured VOC. VOC's are the solvents that are emitted during the drying and curing process. LEED? Greenguard?

True some types of solvents have a stronger smell than others, for example acetone is considered a zero VOC solvent but has a heavy odor and for some is considered very harsh on the skin. But dealing with water-base paints these days, most people consider a low-voc (less than 100 g/l or 50 in CA) or a zero-voc the norm and are educated about them. 150voc is old technology and probably has no mention on the label of being a "low-voc" paint. And to the point of "found that often times paints with less VOC content had more VOC emissions and vice versa. There was no way to predict from what was in the paint, what mind end up in the air." is bogus. Of course you can measure it, all solvents have weight and those weights translate into measureable VOC. Look on any MSDS and you will find them. Low voc or zero voc does not guarantee low odor!! Some mildewcide and surfactant packages will add considerable odor but not add much to the voc total.

When the owner asked you to use a "zero-voc" paint and you used a standard 150voc paint, you made the mistake not him. I don't know what your contract states about products you were to use, but that will be what a court will look at. At this point I think you should repaint with the product the customer asked for, otherwise you will be sued and it will cost you much more. But again its all about the contract and I have a feeling there might not be one?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Mike, as has been covered before in a number of threads, the "VOC" level for paint is for a very specific class of compounds, those that contribute to smog. There are a lot of volatile organic compounds that are toxic to various degrees, but don't lead to smog, they aren't measured in the VOC limits for the paint. It's not a particularly good yardstick for measuring indoor air quality since it may have little bearing on it.

PS. I'll see if I can track down the UL lab paper about content versus emissions, etc.


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## jlei523 (Mar 12, 2015)

Thank you all for the replies. If I cover the low Voc paint with a zero Voc paint, does it help? Or does it make it worse?


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## Blize0367 (Mar 13, 2015)

Long story short - The VOCs are already in the air.. What's the point


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## Blize0367 (Mar 13, 2015)

Of course if we were talking about VOCs to each other face to face... A good amount of VOCs would be omitted into the air just from our breaths. More VOCs are emitted by you driving to a local paint store than most waterborne paints now a days


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Repainting will not erase existing volatile compounds that already happened. Repainting now with zero VOC will add more VOC and harmful compounds to the situation(yes I read my last sentence). The customer possibly wanted another paint, that just happened to be zero VOC, and the VOC count may not be the only reason he wanted it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Your technical question has little relevance to your dilemma. You and the customer had an agreement. You did not deliver. 

Logic and facts may help you soften them up and quell the tempestuous waters you will now have to navigate. Will you dodge leviathan? That is partially up to your skill in communicating to them that YOU made a mistake, more paint will not help, and your ability to negotiate a solution.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

What about using harmony from Sherwin apparently it absorbs and removes VoC s in the airc


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

George Z said:


> Repainting will not erase existing volatile compounds that already happened. Repainting now with zero VOC will add more VOC and harmful compounds to the situation(yes I read my last sentence). The customer possibly wanted another paint, that just happened to be zero VOC, and the VOC count may not be the only reason he wanted it.


It won't erase the VOC's in the air, but paint can continue to off-gas for a while, and if he did a good quality primer-sealer over it and then a VOC-free on top it could at least stop the previous coat from off-gasing to a point. However, I'd only do this as an absolute last resort, and it probably would be a net loss as far as air quality goes.



Painter-Aaron said:


> What about using harmony from Sherwin apparently it absorbs and removes VoC s in the airc


I urge you not to believe that about Harmony.




Regarding VOC's, I'll just repeat some of the stuff I've said before in other threads:

1) VOC's and odors aren't tied together necessarily. If your customer cares about odor and doesn't have a problem with what you put on, that's fine. There's high odor low VOC paints and low odor high VOC paints.
2) If he cares about the environment, it's too late. You goofed and goofed hard.
3) If he cares about respiratory health, zero VOC doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have a better time. However, zero VOC paints are _much less likely to have irritants and toxins, and at lower rates_ than normal paints. VOC's in paint are measured by their potential outdoor air quality impact, _however_ there is still a clear correlation between those and those which are harmful to people. It's a shady mix- people produce VOC's naturally, and there are plenty of harmless VOC's, but many of those used in paint are not harmless. There is significant evidence that low VOC paints are better for you than high, but deciding solely on can VOC is a faulty approach. And again, if this is the case you already screwed it up massively and there's no way to fix it.
4) Your can is only "Low VOC" in that it meets the legal limit for paint VOC content currently in most states (up to 150, depending on sheen). When you add in Kelly Moore's tints, you're actually WELL above legal limit and in no way are painting low VOC. In the world of latex paints, that's extremely high VOC content. For customers with requests like this, you need to either make sure you know what you're doing or turn down the job. My intent isn't to make you feel bad, but this is something painters need to be knowledgeable about.


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

This could be resolved easily if you ask your customer to just stop breathing.:whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lambrecht said:


> This could be resolved easily if you ask your customer to just stop breathing.:whistling2:


And you could assist him in getting there - which you probably feel like doing anyway by now.


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## Blize0367 (Mar 13, 2015)

Lambrecht said:


> This could be resolved easily if you ask your customer to just stop breathing.:whistling2:


Haha.. I'm beginning to love this thread


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Blize0367 said:


> Haha.. I'm beginning to love this thread


Conversely (and inversely) I think the OP is probably hating it.


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## cardwizzard (Sep 13, 2010)

Doesn't it take twice the energy or smokestack to make waterborne paints as to oilbased, so by the time it gets to us the waterbourne has already done more damage than good. But if it makes us feel good to apply it must be good.  

As far as op goes, surely you should have given the customer what THEY wanted, after all it was him writing the cheque.

Sent from my D5503 using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

So for a point of reference, what was the VOC content of good 'ol fashioned latex paint from 1987?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Bender said:


> So for a point of reference, what was the VOC content of good 'ol fashioned latex paint from 1987?


250 was the latex norm

550 or higher for oil


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I looked up the KM product the OP was referring too. 150 sounded high, must have been a typo. It's 50voc, considered a low-voc. I did not think KM, since they are from CA would make anything in that realm.

Still to my point, its what the contract says. I always put the products I will be using on my proposals so there is no doubt.

Oh and for you Gough!!

http://greenguard.org/en/about.aspx

Greenguard is owned by UL and is the primary certifier for "interior products and materials that have low chemical emissions, improving the quality of the air in which the products are used."

True when VOC's were first introduced as a measuring stick, we all think of smog and pollutants on the ozone. While these are still big picture items, VOC's are more thought of in terms of indoor environment and air quality. Even though the difference may seem minor they add up, by using a 50voc paint at a quantity of 20 gallons over an older 150voc paint at the same quantity will reduce exposure by 1.65 pounds of solvent. 

I'm not here to say someone will die because they are exposed to voc's, voc's are not bad, they are just a way to measure solvent. But if the solvent levels can be lowered and still have a quality product is that bad?, I would say a good thing.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> True when VOC's were first introduced as a measuring stick, we all think of smog and pollutants on the ozone. While these are still big picture items, VOC's are more thought of in terms of indoor environment and air quality. Even though the difference may seem minor they add up, by using a 50voc paint at a quantity of 20 gallons over an older 150voc paint at the same quantity will reduce exposure by 1.65 pounds of solvent.


Double thanks for this Mike. It seems really vague to me until someone quantifies it.
That is my biggest complaint about LBP. As testing gets more precise and we can identify lead in ppm or even ppb it seems somewhat panoptic to call it 'exposure'.
Is none better then some? Of course.
Is some a guarantee of health failure. No.


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## CRS (Apr 13, 2013)

*Voc/1987*

I used to formulate in the 250 grm/ltr. range back in the good ole days. Lot's of open/working time. Some wb enamels, i.e high tg (hard) acrylics would go as high as 350 grms/ltr for trades sales applications.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Hope the OP gives us a brief follow-up. Don't care for hit and run threads.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yeh, I'm pretty curious how this turned out.


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## montanapropainters (Mar 26, 2015)

*apply one coat free voc*

yes I recommend you to apply one more coat over the low voc, just because is going to save you a headed.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

montanapropainters said:


> yes I recommend you to apply one more coat over the low voc, just because is going to save you a headed.[/QUOTE]
> 
> huh?:blink::blink:


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

Woodford said:


> It won't erase the VOC's in the air, but paint can continue to off-gas for a while, and if he did a *good quality primer-sealer* over it and then a VOC-free on top it could at least stop the previous coat from off-gasing to a point. However, I'd only do this as an absolute last resort, and it probably would be a net loss as far as air quality goes.


I don't think "good quality primer-sealer" and "Zero VOC" usually go together in the same sentence. How would that make the situation any different?
Not seriously criticizing your idea, just playing devil's advocate here.


Though isn't there a Zero-VOC Bullseye primer? Has anyone tried it?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Like I said Criard, probably a net loss of air quality over all. You can get good quality primers in no VOC... couldn't tell ya a good primer/sealer with no VOC, though. I'm just saying, if the customer is like "you have to fix this" that's the only option other than stripping the paint off the walls and starting over.


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## jwquantrell (Oct 30, 2008)

jlei523 said:


> *The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.*
> 
> _Why did you do that? I am sorry to have to say this but this is an unacceptable mistake._
> 
> ...


Sorry man, I wish that I could give you a better answer here, but it is what it is. http://www.painttalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

VOCs evaporate completely by the time the paint has cured, do they not? What is so unhealthy about them besides the vapors during the first day or two?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

JourneymanBrian said:


> VOCs evaporate completely by the time the paint has cured, do they not? What is so unhealthy about them besides the vapors during the first day or two?


It's probably been pointed out already, but VOC's or Volatile Organic Compounds, have an organic (carbon) molecule that contributes to Global Warming. Its more of an environmental and Planetary concern rather than a health concern.

See, i'm smart like that because i go to Knight scool.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It's probably been pointed out already, but VOC's or Volatile Organic Compounds, have an organic (carbon) molecule that contributes to Global Warming. Its more of an environmental and Planetary concern rather than a health concern.
> 
> See, i'm smart like that because i go to Knight scool.



Photochemical smog, not ACC. The EPA used to call them ROGs (Reactive Organic Gases) because they react to contribute to smog.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

I read on the ISO website that in the US, only VOCs that are harmful to the environment count as VOCs, whereas VOC harmful to humans are considered Exempt Compounds


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

Besides, unless your customer drives a Tesla, should they really be complaining about 300g/L VOC? Last I checked, gasoline is 1000g/L


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

JourneymanBrian said:


> I read on the ISO website that in the US, only VOCs that are harmful to the environment count as VOCs, whereas VOC harmful to humans are considered Exempt Compounds


Not quite. A lot of the regulated VOCs are harmful to humans, but there are also a number of harmful ones that are not considered "VOCs". There's a fair amount of overlap, but it's not great.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> Not quite. A lot of the regulated VOCs are harmful to humans, but there are also a number of harmful ones that are not considered "VOCs". There's a fair amount of overlap, but it's not great.


That's the point I've been trying to make around here for quite some while. VOC's in the US are defined by atmospheric impact, but there's plenty that also impact human health.

And yah, paint keeps off-gassing after it's cured. Not in nearly the same amount, but it keeps going enough that it can still cause allergies and such. Environmental impact after it cures is negligible.


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## Joseph (Aug 26, 2013)

jlei523 said:


> The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.
> 
> Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.
> 
> The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?




I think the customer is just being strange. The VOC's have already evaporated and are up in the air "gone". Re-painting wont do anything but wast money. But I guess if you guys agreed to use a zero VOC paint then technically you have to re-paint. I would try my best to explain that re-painting is pointless but if they are still unhappy, I would just re-paint because it was originally supposed to be zero VOC and it is customer service.



https://www.calgarypropainting.com/blog/index.php


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Your technical question has little relevance to your dilemma. You and the customer had an agreement. *You did not deliver. *


I couldn't have said that any better.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Just repaint with the zero v.o.c. and call it a day. Case closed. Lesson learned. And run


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## BrightTrack (Apr 20, 2015)

I am not from Ecos Paints, but I think their products may be what you're looking for. This is the paint used inside the Louvre in Paris as well as the royal palaces in England and Googleplex in CA. Check their site for details -- http://www.ecospaints.net/. They have been very helpful when I've called.

Tracy
Bright Track Painting


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

BrightTrack said:


> I am not from Ecos Paints, but I think their products may be what you're looking for. This is the paint used inside the Louvre in Paris as well as the royal palaces in England and Googleplex in CA. Check their site for details -- http://www.ecospaints.net/. They have been very helpful when I've called.
> 
> Tracy
> Bright Track Painting


Did you read the OP? That's not really relevant to the issue... =\


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## thomasj (Jul 30, 2015)

jlei523 said:


> The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.
> 
> Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.
> 
> The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?


What was the final verdict? What did you end up doing after all?


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

thomasj said:


> What was the final verdict? What did you end up doing after all?



Seems the OP may have lost his shirt AND his internet service in the deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

The low voc's killed him.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> The low voc's killed him.


Lol. That's sig line worthy too. :thumbup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> Your technical question has little relevance to your dilemma. You and the customer had an agreement. You did not deliver.
> 
> Logic and facts may help you soften them up and quell the tempestuous waters you will now have to navigate. Will you dodge leviathan? That is partially up to your skill in communicating to them that YOU made a mistake, more paint will not help, and your ability to negotiate a solution.


I'm such a douche sometimes.


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## thepaintguru (Nov 24, 2015)

jlei523 said:


> The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.
> 
> Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.
> 
> The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?


I have been using 0voc from Benji-Moore for a while now. If you have already painted and its dried, it won't make a difference to topcoat now, but in the future, using 0voc will save you from getting cancer! Also, your customers will appreciate it. BTW, 12g/L is low voc. 156g/L is very high carcinogens that are cancer causing


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## thepaintguru (Nov 24, 2015)

BrightTrack said:


> I am not from Ecos Paints, but I think their products may be what you're looking for. This is the paint used inside the Louvre in Paris as well as the royal palaces in England and Googleplex in CA. Check their site for details -- http://www.ecospaints.net/. They have been very helpful when I've called.
> 
> Tracy
> Bright Track Painting


Benjamin Moore is better, local and supports local communities because they are all franchise. You will save a lot of money if negotiated correctly and are almost ALL 0voc paints for subs and pro's. I am not a rep! Just saying


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

thepaintguru said:


> I have been using 0voc from Benji-Moore for a while now. If you have already painted and its dried, it won't make a difference to topcoat now, but in the future, using 0voc will save you from getting cancer! Also, your customers will appreciate it. BTW, 12g/L is low voc. 156g/L is very high carcinogens that are cancer causing


wanna bet?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thepaintguru said:


> I have been using 0voc from Benji-Moore for a while now. If you have already painted and its dried, it won't make a difference to topcoat now, but in the future, using 0voc will save you from getting cancer! Also, your customers will appreciate it. BTW, 12g/L is low voc. 156g/L is very high carcinogens that are cancer causing


This has come up in previous threads. VOCs are chemicals that contribute to photochemical smog, that's how they are defined. That regulation has nothing to do with carcinogenicity.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> wanna bet?


Take a look at the MSDS of any paint there is. You will see that titanium dioxide, which it the white pigment in paint, is a known carcinogen. Oddly enough, it is used as an absorbent in disposable diapers. Kinda throws that whole cancer thing out the door doesn't it?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Gough said:


> This has come up in previous threads. VOCs are chemicals that contribute to photochemical smog, that's how they are defined. That regulation has nothing to do with *carcinogenicity*.


That is a seven syllable mouthful. It took me three tries to say it correctly.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Holy misinformation batman. I swear one of these days I'm gonna write an article about VOC's in regards to paint just so I can shove it down people's throats when they post stuff about it. 

Listen to Gough, he's a smart man.





Gough said:


> This has come up in previous threads. VOCs are chemicals that contribute to photochemical smog, that's how they are defined. That regulation has nothing to do with carcinogenicity.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

SemiproJohn said:


> That is a seven syllable mouthful. It took me three tries to say it correctly.


I'm still not sure if there's supposed to be emphasis on the "o" or not. Carcinogen is emphasized 'o,' but that's not always the same when you suffix a word.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> I'm still not sure if there's supposed to be emphasis on the "o" or not. Carcinogen is emphasized 'o,' but that's not always the same when you suffix a word.


I assumed (I know, I know, probably the wrong thing to do) that the correct pronunciation of carcinogenicity utilizes two accents: car*cin*ogen*i*city

Perhaps Gough can verify, as I don't want to go through the rest of my life mispronouncing such a great word. :whistling2:


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## Crackshot (Dec 29, 2015)

volatile organic compounds, what % was the low voc you used? less that 1?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Crackshot said:


> volatile organic compounds, what % was the low voc you used? less that 1?


VOC's are generally measured in grams per litre or gallon, not percent total.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> VOC's are generally measured in grams per litre or gallon, not percent total.


Might be different in New Zealand though. The EPA nazi's can't reach everyone!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PACman said:


> Might be different in New Zealand though. The EPA nazi's can't reach everyone!


OOPS!I hope I didn't offend the EPA. To late to edit it though. (then again maybe someone agrees with me?)


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## Paintamania (Aug 15, 2015)

It seems the home owner is trying to get a freebie or a discount here.

Generally when some one makes a big fuss about something so irrelevant they are a bad client.

Once the paint dries then its done no more issues. I would be cautious around clients like this.


The work is done, collect your money.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Paints can continue to off-gas for quite a while after they're "dry." According to some sources, they may release only 50% of their lifetime emissions in the first year alone.

Customer may just be a cheapskate, but also may just have legitimate (if possibly misguided) health concerns.

Also, OP legitimately messed up, so his clients concerns are valid anyways (although, again, possibly a bit misguided).


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## Paintamania (Aug 15, 2015)

DrakeB said:


> Paints can continue to off-gas for quite a while after they're "dry." According to some sources, they may release only 50% of their lifetime emissions in the first year alone.
> 
> Customer may just be a cheapskate, but also may just have legitimate (if possibly misguided) health concerns.
> 
> Also, OP legitimately messed up, so his clients concerns are valid anyways (although, again, possibly a bit misguided).


True, the OP messed up by agreeing to use no-voc's and also not buying the paint agreed upon with the client.

In retrospective, he should have convinced the client not to use the requested paint or actually bought the paint that was agreed upon.

Mistakes happen, lesson learned.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Unasked question?*



jlei523 said:


> The owner is very health conscious. He wanted a zero-VOC paint but I used Kelly Moore Acryplex which has 150g VOC and is considered as low VOC.
> 
> Now the owner is asking me to repaint the whole house with a zero VOC paint called Eviro Coat from Kelly Moore.
> 
> The question is, is it actually better to add a new coat of zero VOC on top of freshly painted low VOC?


After one more comment after his original post, the OP no longer appears as part of this discussion. I just read through this thread for the first time tonight. Correct me if I am wrong, but did anyone ask the OP WHY he painted with a VOC paint after the owner specifically sked for a ZERO VOC paint? I certainly am curious to know. If the OP reads this, I would be interested to know.

Having asked that, I would say that the OP appeared to recognize that he made a mistake and was just trying to cover his posterior before making another mistake before he went ahead and did the repaint with a zero VOC paint. Sounds reasonable to me.

This whole thing reminds me to be careful on what I put into my proposals AND to make sure I get the owner's approval (signature) before I start. Education can come at a cost sometimes. I know I have paid for a good amount of it myself!

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Bender said:


> So for a point of reference, what was the VOC content of good 'ol fashioned latex paint from 1987?


If I remember correctly it was around 250-300 grams/litre.


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## VisionFinishes (Apr 30, 2016)

Here in the states I've been using harmony from Sherwin as a default interior paint unless otherwise requested, or required. Zero voc and it has a property that actually absorbs other harmful off gassing vapors and odors (so they say). Healthier for me and an it helps sell the job. I'd say you do what you say you're going to. I always put the product into my estimate that they sign. That way there can be no arguing. I give a link to the description too.


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## scotties2006 (Sep 16, 2017)

I know this is an older thread but...

Hello everyone. This is my first post here. I found this thread in search of healthy building solutions for a our new home which is currently underway. The drywall has just completed hanging and finishing will begin first of the week. I felt the need based on what I have read to chime in on the subject... coming from a homeowners point of view, a parent and a medical professional. First, a bit about my family...

Our daughter, who is now about to turn 13 yo, was diagnosed with Leukemia at the age of 9. This was a life changing event. I can't even begin to tell you and describe what we have been through. However, through the grace of God, she is doing great. She has been cancer free for 3 years now, finished with chemo for 1 year now and currently goes to Vanderbilt Childrens Hospital every other month for lab checks. Please add us to your prayers for continued great health.

With that being said... we are trying to be as "healthy" as we can in the building process but keeping within a budget. I've researched so much that my eyes are crossed. We stayed away from the traditional tar paper for the roof, we've used water based stains, paints, green guard certified drywall. We are looking at mostly "green products" for all purposes. I'm sure, we aren't doing everything right but at least I'm trying to make our new home as healthy and clean as possible. So, to the point....

VOC's are a known carcinogen, especially in children. Paint does off gas for weeks after. Does that mean that using zero VOC paint will prevent cancer? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Does it give me as a parent some piece of mind knowing that I have at least done all I can do to create a "safe" home for my family (Wife, daugters x2, dog, fish and 2 frogs)? You betcha!! So if I ask for zero VOC paint and it's understood and agreed upon and you deliver something else... Not only will you be repainting, you may be tearing down and replacing everything that you put the WRONG paint on. I know this sounds extreme but from a parent who has been through what I have... I would be EXTREMELY upset about this. So just know that there are clients out there that have their reasons for the choices they make and you should respect those and do the right thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a tree hugger, green peace, electric car driving yuppie (not that anything is wrong with that). I drive a F-150, eat meat and shoot things but I love my family. Until my daughters diagnosis... we built houses like most others without much consideration on being green. However things have a way of changing your way of thinking. Microwaves, cell phones, computers, TV's power lines, etc.. all contribute to polluting our air and penetrate our bodies daily. All of this can cause cell mutations and potentially start a cascade that results in cancer. So does petroleum products, sleeping to close to your cell phone, heated blankets, memory foam and a gazillion other things but we accept most of it and go on for convenience sake. IMO, our modern conveniences (gps, satellite radio, phone watches, etc...) are killing us. All of the crap food we put into our bodies. Plastic this and that... AHHHH the list goes on and on. 

Sorry for my rant and I myself may have relayed or shared some inaccurate info but this is a small percentage of my research that I've conducted over the last 3.5 years.

Point is... repaint! Most importantly... go home and give your family a hug and spend time with them. Life is a blessing and our most precious thing is time. So use your time wisely and love those around you. God Bless.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

If the HO asked for Zero VOC paint why not use what he asked for? It's like home owner asking to paint a room red and you paint it pink, it's close enough right?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

scotties2006 said:


> I know this is an older thread but...
> 
> Hello everyone. This is my first post here. I found this thread in search of healthy building solutions for a our new home which is currently underway. The drywall has just completed hanging and finishing will begin first of the week. I felt the need based on what I have read to chime in on the subject... coming from a homeowners point of view, a parent and a medical professional. First, a bit about my family...
> 
> ...


The weird thing is that any paint is loaded with Titanium Dioxide, which is a known carcinogen. But it is also used in disposable diapers and cosmetics. AND unfortunately, there is no actual standard in the paint industry in the US for any actual label claims, so as long as it meets the EPA's definition of "0voc" it gets labeled and sold as being "safer" than any other paint, which is far from being true as you may have already found out. Many top selling lo voc or 0 voc paints are LOADED with ammonia, which is a voc exempt solvent and doesn't add voc's to the paint. But it can cause serious short and long term health issues. 

Basically all the voc limit applies to is protecting the environment, and it has nothing to do with personal safety as most paint companies like to promote. Also unfortunately, because there is a complete lack of oversight over how paint manufacturers label their paint, the only recourse available to someone who may request a "safe" paint and find out after the fact that it was in fact not "safe" is the label warranty, which NEVER makes any statements about the actual safety of the paint. If you are lucky, the paint manufacturer may give you a refund or replacement product, but they certainly are not by law required to replace any substrate or pay for the labor to remove said substrate and replace it. That would require a class action suit, several of which have already been lost buy consumers for this very issue. It would take a lot of money, time, and effort to get a paint company to pay to replace a substrate in a situation like this. Much, much more money, time, and effort that it would take to just pay for it yourself.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> The weird thing is that any paint is loaded with Titanium Dioxide, which is a known carcinogen. But it is also used in disposable diapers and cosmetics. AND unfortunately, there is no actual standard in the paint industry in the US for any actual label claims, so as long as it meets the EPA's definition of "0voc" it gets labeled and sold as being "safer" than any other paint, which is far from being true as you may have already found out. Many top selling lo voc or 0 voc paints are LOADED with ammonia, which is a voc exempt solvent and doesn't add voc's to the paint. But it can cause serious short and long term health issues.
> 
> Basically all the voc limit applies to is protecting the environment, and it has nothing to do with personal safety as most paint companies like to promote. Also unfortunately, because there is a complete lack of oversight over how paint manufacturers label their paint, the only recourse available to someone who may request a "safe" paint and find out after the fact that it was in fact not "safe" is the label warranty, which NEVER makes any statements about the actual safety of the paint. If you are lucky, the paint manufacturer may give you a refund or replacement product, but they certainly are not by law required to replace any substrate or pay for the labor to remove said substrate and replace it. That would require a class action suit, several of which have already been lost buy consumers for this very issue. It would take a lot of money, time, and effort to get a paint company to pay to replace a substrate in a situation like this. Much, much more money, time, and effort that it would take to just pay for it yourself.


Let me ask you this. Labeling aside, is there a paint that in your opinion is better suited or safer, for people with health concerns? I recently painted a couple walls in an autistic school, and the designer asked me to get the least fumey paint I could find. She didnt make a fuss about it or anything. She wanted Sherwin, and they were paying for the paint, so I asked SW what they thought. I remembered them having a paint that was supposedly healthier. Anyway, they counter guy said in his opinion Emerald was the least fumey paint they had, so I just used it, and was never questioned about it. I wasnt paying for it, and I really dont care that much, but on my way out the door, I noticed they have a paint called Harmony, thats marketed to be less smelly and safer. Probably just a marketing tactic, I know, but customers reading that label probably feel better.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Let me ask you this. Labeling aside, is there a paint that in your opinion is better suited or safer, for people with health concerns? I recently painted a couple walls in an autistic school, and the designer asked me to get the least fumey paint I could find. She didnt make a fuss about it or anything. She wanted Sherwin, and they were paying for the paint, so I asked SW what they thought. I remembered them having a paint that was supposedly healthier. Anyway, they counter guy said in his opinion Emerald was the least fumey paint they had, so I just used it, and was never questioned about it. I wasnt paying for it, and I really dont care that much, but on my way out the door, I noticed they have a paint called Harmony, thats marketed to be less smelly and safer. Probably just a marketing tactic, I know, but customers reading that label probably feel better.


harmony would be better. It isn't necessarily anything that people can smell that can cause problems. Harmony doesn't have many of the nasty no smell ingredients that Emerald may or may not have. AND........if something happens, such as someone having a reaction to the paint you used, you will have some legal protections if you use the Harmony. Now that being said, i would have recommended the Verde line from California over Harmony. And not just because i am a Cali dealer, but because it is an update of the old Muralo Breathesafe, which was a very highly rated "safe" paint. The major difference now is it has been reformulated to accept the 0 voc Trillion colorant line, which adds no additional voc's to the paint, unlike the old Muralo colorant and even the lowest voc colorant SW has. Those may be low voc, and by definition be "0 voc" by EPA regulations, but they are not 100% water based and still have enough compliant solvents in them to have an adverse effect on some people. Remember, voc compliance has absolutely anything to do with how safe a paint is for a human, just for the duckies and birdies.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Any thoughts on the BM Natura line?


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