# BM Stay clear + PPG breakthrough?



## Mr Smith

Has anyone experimented using BM "stays clear" poly as a top coat over PPG Breakthrough?

The low VOC Breakthrough is not tough enough for Kitchen cabinets on its own. I do love using BT for exterior doors, however. Great stuff!

Breakthrough dries so quick you could probably spray cabinet doors 3 coats on each side laying flat and then poly them the next day with BM stays clear.

I'm looking for a quick turnaround product for cabinets. One day for prep & prime, one day for Breakthrough, and the final day for the BM stays clear. Actually, that's looking like 4 days because you have to hang them when fully dried. Sound good? 

I'd love to use wooden hangars and speed things up even more by spraying both sides. I suspect that the BM stay clear poly will run when shot vertically.

I'm getting fed up with this search for the perfect water based enamel for Kitchen Cupboards.

Anyone having success using Kem Aqua thru an airless?

I wish I had a shop to experiment with these finishes.

In all my years of reading paint talk threads, I've yet to see a proven DURABLE, QUICK, system for painting cabinets. OK, shooting pre-cat lacquer is quick but that **** is poison.


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## Rbriggs82

The high VOC version is plenty good for cabinets on its own.

I have experimented with both stays clear and HP poly from general finishes over breakthrough. I took a door sprayed with BT, on one end painted it with stays clear, and the other with General Finishes, with the middle left along. I then took both ketchup and yellow mustard.

After letting them sit for a week I tried cleaning it off. To my surprise the plain old breakthrough cleaned the best with General Finishes a distant second and the Stays Clear didn't clean well at all.









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## PACman

ultraplate. If you can get it.


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## cocomonkeynuts

There has also been some talk here on using Scuff-X for cabinets... still waiting on someone to tell me why it wouldn't be an good option.


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## Mr Smith

PACman said:


> ultraplate. If you can get it.


Who manufactures it? I've never seen it anywhere.


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## Mr Smith

cocomonkeynuts said:


> There has also been some talk here on using Scuff-X for cabinets... still waiting on someone to tell me why it wouldn't be an good option.


I should get a gallon and try it out. I think my own cabinets could use a fresh coat. I wish they had it in a semi-gloss. They refer to pearl as satin. It's probably a high sheen satin.


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## Rbriggs82

Mr Smith said:


> Who manufactures it? I've never seen it anywhere.


California, it's a fantastic paint. :yes:

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## Mr Smith

Rbriggs82 said:


> California, it's a fantastic paint. :yes:
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I don't think it's available in Canada. Neither is Miller Paint.


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## Rbriggs82

Mr Smith said:


> I don't think it's available in Canada. Neither is Miller Paint.


Probably not, I can't get it here in South Carolina either. I order it from a paint store in New Hampshire. 

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## Center_line_Painting

I'm starting to convince myself to get a serious respirator system. The lacquers work, and they are accessible, generally. 

I'm right there with you on the scuff-x cocomonkeynuts. I haven't tried because I haven't received enough data to feel confident about it. I get tons of cabinet requests, I'm all about trying out different systems, but I need the confidence that things wont flake/get screwed. 

Last time I used scuff-x on walls (early spring) the dry time was slow. but it's a hard product. 
You know the exact timing for block resistance and all that for it?


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## PNW Painter

Have you looked into any of the Waterbased lacquer systems such as Target Coatings, Lenmar, SW Kem Aqua Plus, SW Sayerlack or General Finishes? 

These systems offer quick recoat times and the finishes are also very durable. I’m guessing that all of these Coatings are KCMA approved, which can also be a good selling point to clients. Some also offer clear top coats for added protection.


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## Tprice2193

Generalfinishes Enduro white poly which is my current favorite, is not kcma certified. Kem Aqual plus and Sayerlac are kcma certified under specific conditions not normally achievable in repaints. Dont know about the others.


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## Tprice2193

Rbriggs 82 - Is Spectrum stocking that Ultraplate for you?


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## Rbriggs82

Tprice2193 said:


> Rbriggs 82 - Is Spectrum stocking that Ultraplate for you?


No, I wish they could. I've been ordering it here https://store.eastcoastlumber.net/products/ultraplate-tintable--white|CAL52911G.html and having it shipped. They'll tint it to whatever color you choose too. 

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## mug

I started using breakthrough a couple of years ago. It was the v51 (low voc). 
I really like using it, but it does have to be clear coated on cabinets. 
I do a lot of glazing so it has to be done anyway. I was using a mix of satin and flat of general finishes HP poly with good results and have recently switched to their professional line of Enduro Clear.


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## Tprice2193

@Rbriggs82 - Thanks for the information about ultraplate. How is turnaround time with ultraplate on cabinets? Blocking/cure issues? Are there any situations you would consider using it without primer? Has it replaced BT as your go to for cabinets? With you and @PACman recommending it could catch on. $$


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## Tprice2193

@mug - How do you apply the Enduro clear poly over your glaze? Maybe you can tempt us with a few pics? What percent of your Cabinet business is glazing? Thanks for posting!


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## fauxlynn

If you’re looking for a tough clear, Faux Effects makes this:














My clients seem to like it.


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## Mr Smith

Tprice2193 said:


> Generalfinishes Enduro white poly which is my current favorite, is not kcma certified. Kem Aqual plus and Sayerlac are kcma certified under specific conditions not normally achievable in repaints. Dont know about the others.


That's very true. The manufacturer even states that it is not to be used for repaints. I know some painters will take the gamble but there is a reason why Sherwin Williams is protecting their legal butts.

RE: Saylerlac

I know Sherwin Williams owns this company but they don't even carry it at their stores in Canada. One independent paint store carries it and they want an initial $120/gallon for a match, and $80/gallon for the Sayerlac white colored waterborne lacquer. Ridiculous pricing!


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## Tprice2193

Actually that pricing is better than what I have found in US. I don't think SW wants us to use Sayerlac. OEM's only. True to some extent with KA +.


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## Rbriggs82

Tprice2193 said:


> @Rbriggs82 - Thanks for the information about ultraplate. How is turnaround time with ultraplate on cabinets? Blocking/cure issues? Are there any situations you would consider using it without primer? Has it replaced BT as your go to for cabinets? With you and @PACman recommending it could catch on. $$


It doesn't seem to cure as fast as breakthrough but it's still fast. It's a lot thicker than BT but sprayed beautifully with a tritech 310 without thinning. Re-coat time is two hours and after spraying they can be installed the next day without a problem.

It does have a little more sheen than breakthrough and I'd say they both have a similar feel to them.

On newer cabinets that are factory finished if it passes an overnight adhesion test I wouldn't hesitate to forego a primer. Most of the time it adheres better than any waterborne primer I've come across.


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## Mr Smith

Tprice2193 said:


> Actually that pricing is better than what I have found in US. I don't think SW wants us to use Sayerlac. OEM's only. True to some extent with KA +.



Sherwin Williams has owned Sayerlac for a few years and they even have a plant and manufacture it in the US.

Sayerlac was originally produced in Italy. Someone told me, (and I'm not sure if it is true), that the original Sayerlac from Italy is not available in the US and the Sherwin Williams manufactured Sayerlac is much inferior. You used to be able to buy the good stuff from Europe.

The guy I talked to was a manager at a coatings specialty shop and used to sell it a few years ago. I can't remember the damn shop's name and it might be out of business because I did a long search for it online.


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## mug

Tprice2193 said:


> @mug - How do you apply the Enduro clear poly over your glaze? Maybe you can tempt us with a few pics? What percent of your Cabinet business is glazing? Thanks for posting!


I had been doing a lot of work in flip houses and got tired of the airless for the cabinets so I picked up a home right finish sprayer. I figured I could just toss it after a couple of jobs.
It sprays breakthrough pretty darn good. I bought the newer one for the clear. Have to watch for dry spray with that. 
The results are good, not auto quality but around here nobody is paying for that. 
I am glazing about 1 out of 3 jobs.


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## Tprice2193

@mug - Thanks for the information. That is some nice work! Suprising quality for that little sprayer especially spraying Breakthrough.


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## Tprice2193

@Rbriggs82 - Thanks for the additional information on Ultraplate...


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## Mr Smith

Ultraplate is a urethane modified acrylic paint similar to Inslx Cabinet Coat. 

C2 also has a similar paint called 'cabinet & trim'. They also add Whey protein to the mix and call it PolyWhey® technology. "it’s	so	durable	it’s	also	great	for	use	on	floors."

I might give this paint a try.

Ouch! it retails in Canada for $110/gallon. My cost is $88
C2 also sells a sandable acrylic high bonding primer that seals grease & stains.

https://c2paint.com/collections/c2-cabinet-trim/products/c2-cabinet-trim-satin


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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> The high VOC version is plenty good for cabinets on its own.
> 
> I have experimented with both stays clear and HP poly from general finishes over breakthrough. I took a door sprayed with BT, on one end painted it with stays clear, and the other with General Finishes, with the middle left along. I then took both ketchup and yellow mustard.
> 
> After letting them sit for a week I tried cleaning it off. To my surprise the plain old breakthrough cleaned the best with General Finishes a distant second and the Stays Clear didn't clean well at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


That's odd. Isn't Stays clear designed for floors? Unfortunately only Low VOC version of Breakthrough is available now.. My BM rep is recommending Advance flat with 2 coats of Stays Clear. You would think that would atleast give some extra longevity. .


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> That's odd. Isn't Stays clear designed for floors? Unfortunately only Low VOC version of Breakthrough is available now.. My BM rep is recommending Advance flat with 2 coats of Stays Clear. You would think that would atleast give some extra longevity. .


If I'm going with advance there's no way I'd use it in flat (didn't know that was even available) and I definitely wouldn't go putting stays clear over it. 

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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> If I'm going with advance there's no way I'd use it in flat (didn't know that was even available) and I definitely wouldn't go putting stays clear over it.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Indeed it does. The idea is that the Stays Clear will adhere better to the Flat finish. The Stays clear would be in a Pearl finish. Just a different system. Sounds realistic, but not liking that it's not cleanable. ..


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> Indeed it does. The idea is that the Stays Clear will adhere better to the Flat finish. The Stays clear would be in a Pearl finish. Just a different system. Sounds realistic, but not liking that it's not cleanable. ..


Breakthrough comes in clear... 

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## Center_line_Painting

thanks for bringing up that clear @Rbriggs82 

Does anyone here have experience with that product? My local stores say I need to order 4 gallons to be able to get it. Anyone try it in different applications?


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## finishesbykevyn

Center_line_Painting said:


> thanks for bringing up that clear @Rbriggs82
> 
> Does anyone here have experience with that product? My local stores say I need to order 4 gallons to be able to get it. Anyone try it in different applications?


 You think the Low VOC version of a clear Breakthrough would be tougher than another like Stays Clear or the likes? This system sounds like a good up sell to the client, but yes long turn around time. I'm told you can clear coat over the Advance the next day. haven't tried it yet. 
However, wouldnt it be better to apply a pearl clearcoat over top of a Matt finish as apposed to over top of a pearl finish.??


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## Center_line_Painting

@finishesbykevyn I can't speculate on clear breakthrough. Hopefully someone else with experience with the low voc product will be able to chip in. 

I just whipped out an old can of the high voc stuff- omg.....so nice....like a relic in NJ...

I'm wondering if there's some way us little painters can convince the governing bodies to allow us to have some of our favorite high voc products. 
Envrionmentally speaking, we should have much higher priorities. That product is damn fine and has a lot of love from a lot of painters.


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## Rbriggs82

finishesbykevyn said:


> You think the Low VOC version of a clear Breakthrough would be tougher than another like Stays Clear or the likes? This system sounds like a good up sell to the client, but yes long turn around time. I'm told you can clear coat over the Advance the next day. haven't tried it yet.
> However, wouldnt it be better to apply a pearl clearcoat over top of a Matt finish as apposed to over top of a pearl finish.??


Not sure, I've never used it. I'm don't know if you have access to it or not but you should really give California Ultraplate a try. If I weren't able to get the higher VOC breakthrough Ultraplate would be my next choice. Might even be my first choice if I were able to get ahold of it easier. 

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## finishesbykevyn

Rbriggs82 said:


> Not sure, I've never used it. I'm don't know if you have access to it or not but you should really give California Ultraplate a try. If I weren't able to get the higher VOC breakthrough Ultraplate would be my next choice. Might even be my first choice if I were able to get ahold of it easier.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Ya, I am really liking the sounds of this Ultraplate. Sounds like the miracle cure. I highly doubt I can get it out my way without a bit of a battle.Going to look into it. @ Pacman, who would I ask about this? I loose sleep at night wondering whether or not this batch of Adavance will cure properly etc..


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## mug

Here is a recent cabinet job. One coat of BIN. Two coats of breakthrough low voc. (V51) 3 coats of Enduro clear satin. The feel of the cabinets is very smooth and no scratching or that soft feeling.


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## VFeast

mug said:


> I started using breakthrough a couple of years ago. It was the v51 (low voc).
> I really like using it, but it does have to be clear coated on cabinets.
> I do a lot of glazing so it has to be done anyway. I was using a mix of satin and flat of general finishes HP poly with good results and have recently switched to their professional line of Enduro Clear.


Sorry to bring up this old thread but Mug, I’m hoping you see this! Did you have any issues with that GF HP poly yellowing on white breakthrough (v51)? I’m about to finish our cabinets and have the HP poly ready to go but have read a number of yellowing instances, and General Finishes website suggests not using it on “bright white” so now I’m not so sure I want to use it on the white Breakthrough. Maybe I should take it back and get the clear Enduro. Would love to hear any feedback you’d have.


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## mug

VFeast said:


> mug said:
> 
> 
> 
> I started using breakthrough a couple of years ago. It was the v51 (low voc).
> I really like using it, but it does have to be clear coated on cabinets.
> I do a lot of glazing so it has to be done anyway. I was using a mix of satin and flat of general finishes HP poly with good results and have recently switched to their professional line of Enduro Clear.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to bring up this old thread but Mug, I’m hoping you see this! Did you have any issues with that GF HP poly yellowing on white breakthrough (v51)? I’m about to finish our cabinets and have the HP poly ready to go but have read a number of yellowing instances, and General Finishes website suggests not using it on “bright white” so now I’m not so sure I want to use it on the white Breakthrough. Maybe I should take it back and get the clear Enduro. Would love to hear any feedback you’d have.
Click to expand...


I have used the Enduro Clear. HP and on occasion no odor varathane. No yellowing at all. Just use the BIN and very good prep work.


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## brooklynpainters

yes i have


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## brooklynpainters

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## brooklynpainters

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## Wooster Crowe

PNW Painter said:


> Have you looked into any of the Waterbased lacquer systems such as Target Coatings, Lenmar, SW Kem Aqua Plus, SW Sayerlack or General Finishes?
> 
> These systems offer quick recoat times and the finishes are also very durable. I’m guessing that all of these Coatings are KCMA approved, which can also be a good selling point to clients. Some also offer clear top coats for added protection.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Kem Aqua is fine, but I beef up the primer, I hate shellac as the primer, it is too difficult.


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