# sunlight dish soap in drywall mud?



## Joseph (Aug 26, 2013)

Was watching the tapers finish up a job before I started painting. They were mixing sunlight dish soap into the mud, said it makes the mud smoother and produces a better finish. 

Anyone ever tried this? 






http://www.calgarypropainting.com


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

I haven't used sunlight but have used other detergent to eliminate bubbles. Didn't notice a difference. Maybe Sunlight is "special." 


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## mx920cj (Apr 16, 2011)

I have heard that the mud sometimes doesn't adhere very well if you add to much soap. I never knew how much soap to add and I never wanted to risk having problems so I didn't try it but once. I did not notice a difference. I have found that if you thin the mud down with some water and mix the mud very well (electric drill works best) it eliminates air bubbles.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't know what to think when I read about these garage lab concoctions designed to alter materials that were tested and originally formulated in multi million dollar facilities.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I don't know what to think when I read about these garage lab concoctions designed to alter materials that were tested and originally formulated in multi million dollar facilities.


Sometimes home brew works better than the out of the box stuff. 

Just remember about today's million dollar facilities and companies, etc. etc. Most things are designed with "programmed obsolescence" into them. 

Example: You need to increase/decrease dry-time, buy our retarder/extender. Could it have been mixed in to begin with? Sure. Was it? nope. Better margins.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

woodcoyote said:


> Sometimes home brew works better than the out of the box stuff.
> 
> Just remember about today's million dollar facilities and companies, etc. etc. Most things are designed with "programmed obsolescence" into them.
> 
> Example: You need to increase/decrease dry-time, buy our retarder/extender. Could it have been mixed in to begin with? Sure. Was it? nope. Better margins.


Until USG comes out with an additive that helps smooth up joint compound, I'll continue to use clean water and spit.

I also believe there are occasions when you'll need the option of either a slow dry or rapid dry for paints. So I understand the need for additives that will accommodate that.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I have to trust the lab employee with a chemical engineering degree rather than the forty year old high school grad who likes to tinker while chugging a few PBR's.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

It would seem like a surfactant problem waiting to happen.

On the other hand, we used to add a few capfuls of mineral spirits to our latex so it wouldn't bubble/fisheye when you rolled it.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to trust the lab employee with a chemical engineering degree rather than the forty year old high school grad who likes to tinker while chugging a few PBR's.


 Unless they tell you not to prime drywall? :laughing: JK. 

I was looking into the dish soap thing recently because our drywall guys seem to have worse than average problems with pocks in the finished mud. From my research it seems to be a fairly common trick. Some say using too much, or using Ultra versions (concentrated) of dish soap can cause adhesion problems with subsequent coatings. 

I eventually ran across this stuff 

http://www.all-wall.com/Categories/Drywall-Compound-Additives/No-Pock-Drywall-Formula.html

..which seems to be a safer alternative than dish soap. Adding unapproved substances to patching compounds seem risky at best, especially when there are products specifically designed to do essentially the same thing.


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## Joseph (Aug 26, 2013)

I happened to run into the taper again and I asked if he was concerned about adhesion problems. He explained that it doesn't take much sunlight to be effective and you only use it for the very last coat. So according to this guy nothing should be added to the mud except for the final coat. Makes me wonder how much sunlight I paint.

Found this while searching the web https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu0gmnLP8Nk

http://www.calgarypropainting.com
http://www.calgarypropainting.com/blog/index.php


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Two coats of mud? I thought it was supposed to be three? 

Using the trowel seems interesting. I'm sure I could find a room in my house to practice on...


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## Kzt_taping (Dec 25, 2020)

CApainter said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to trust the lab employee with a chemical engineering degree rather than the forty year old high school grad who likes to tinker while chugging a few PBR's.


I tried this it made a serious difference with pock marks and with the sanding. I do it for 3 and skim. My buddy works for cgc he told me to do it he tests the adhesion.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'd like to see the outcome of a multi million dollar malpractice suit when the exhibit A lab report indicates the presence of Dawne dishwashing soap in the failing drywall compound.

Defendant's Council- "Well, you see your honor, Mr. Billy Bob Bletso here has been reveled in his painting community for not only the amazing stories he's shared over the years at the local paint stores, but also for his innovations, concoctions, and methodologies. All formulated in his own single car garage! Now I argue, that is about as patriotic as it gets. I rest my case your honor".

Judge- "Judgement for the plaintiff. Mr Bletso will pay for all damages incurred, by knowingly introducing a dish washing soap product into the joint compound identified in exhibit A, with blatant disregard to the joint compound's technical data sheet recommendations, or lack there of. This court is adjourned."


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I was just asking on the DIY Forum about how to make All purpose joint compound easier to sand, and a couple people suggested a very small amount of dish soap would help. So, apparently, its not an uncommon thing to do.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I've definitely heard people talk about it before, but never actually saw anyone do it. I'd be a little concerned with adhesion/residues.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Woodco said:


> I was just asking on the DIY Forum about how to make All purpose joint compound easier to sand, and a couple people suggested a very small amount of dish soap would help. So, apparently, its not an uncommon thing to do.


In defense of my own DIY science, I've added vinegar to Fix All in order to slow down the cure time. And even though it may be a popular hack for application issues, it would be irresponsible of me to suggest it as a best, or acceptable practice .


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Woodco said:


> I was just asking on the DIY Forum about how to make All purpose joint compound easier to sand, and a couple people suggested a very small amount of dish soap would help. So, apparently, its not an uncommon thing to do.


I don't like dish soap in mud as it burns your eyes when you sand it. One drywaller I go after as a sub does it and I hate it. Never had adhesion issues or similar, though, but we always primed with Fresh Start 046, so maybe that's why.

I find All Purpose crazily easy to sand anyway, especially Green Top. Generally what I try to is on joint repairs/a skimcoat where stuff is majorly messed up is do my first or second coat with Easysand applied plasterer style with a trowel and knocked down possibly with some water (I've found using a sponge and sort of wetsanding and troweling it down is better for Easysand vs using a spray bottle like you do with plaster.) Ideally too with Easysand it's better to use a bonding agent like Plaster Weld or Quikrete Concrete bonding agent. On your final skim coat use All Purpose thinned down to fill in any trowel marks or holidays left after that, then you're left with about a millimeter or less total to sand off the whole surface. I think it's better to apply more coats to get less sanding than leaving something rough and trying to sand to compensate for the roughness. Maybe that's kind of a weird way to do it that seems more labor intensive, but I'd rather be spreading mud than sanding any day of the week, and the lower amount of dust is significantly better healthwise and convenience-wise.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

celicaxx said:


> I don't like dish soap in mud as it burns your eyes when you sand it. One drywaller I go after as a sub does it and I hate it. Never had adhesion issues or similar, though, but we always primed with Fresh Start 046, so maybe that's why.
> 
> I find All Purpose crazily easy to sand anyway, especially Green Top. Generally what I try to is on joint repairs/a skimcoat where stuff is majorly messed up is do my first or second coat with Easysand applied plasterer style with a trowel and knocked down possibly with some water (I've found using a sponge and sort of wetsanding and troweling it down is better for Easysand vs using a spray bottle like you do with plaster.) Ideally too with Easysand it's better to use a bonding agent like Plaster Weld or Quikrete Concrete bonding agent. On your final skim coat use All Purpose thinned down to fill in any trowel marks or holidays left after that, then you're left with about a millimeter or less total to sand off the whole surface. I think it's better to apply more coats to get less sanding than leaving something rough and trying to sand to compensate for the roughness. Maybe that's kind of a weird way to do it that seems more labor intensive, but I'd rather be spreading mud than sanding any day of the week, and the lower amount of dust is significantly better healthwise and convenience-wise.


Well, thats great if you have the freedom to do multiple coats. I dont. I float with one good coat, and I sand prime and hang paper the next day. I get it pretty smooth, but its still gotta be sanded. The last time I used green all purpose it was a royal b1tch to sand. I vac sand it, so there is no dust anywhere, so my eyes would be fine, if I ever decided to try that.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I dont get the theory behind it. Wouldnt dish soap theoretically "add" bubbles to your mix? What about paint conditioner or something similar? I've also heard this theory but just dont get the science behind it.. I certainly find that mixing your mud really well with a paddle first helps alot. I personally like the CGC Beige for big jobs. For quick repairs, the Sheetrock 20.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I dont get the theory behind it. Wouldnt dish soap theoretically "add" bubbles to your mix? What about paint conditioner or something similar? I've also heard this theory but just dont get the science behind it.. I certainly find that mixing your mud really well with a paddle first helps alot. I personally like the CGC Beige for big jobs. For quick repairs, the Sheetrock 20.


20, and a lot of the other fast dry ones, are awful for sanding. I only use them for big holes, since it doesn't shrink. I find I always get better results finishing wth regular joint compound. Just sands out better.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I dont get the theory behind it. Wouldnt dish soap theoretically "add" bubbles to your mix? What about paint conditioner or something similar? I've also heard this theory but just dont get the science behind it.. I certainly find that mixing your mud really well with a paddle first helps alot. I personally like the CGC Beige for big jobs. For quick repairs, the Sheetrock 20.


Sunlight contains sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate aka SDBS, both SDBS & DDBSA being common surfactants used in the manufacture of joint compounds. The surfactants reduce the density, cratering, shrinkage, & cracking, plus increase the workability and ease of sanding. It’s probably okay to add a fluid ounce of Sunlight to a 5 of regular AP, but too much can severely compromise the material. And no, it doesn’t cause noticeable bubbling..just micro-foaming which provides a more frothy-like consistency w/lower density, so I think...

edit: It’s not best practice to add anything not in accordance w/the manufacturer’s submittals including dish soap/detergent..I personally would opt to use a mid-weight joint compound if ease of sanding was a concern, although I almost exclusively use USG AP pre-mix green lid..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Masterwork said:


> 20, and a lot of the other fast dry ones, are awful for sanding. I only use them for big holes, since it doesn't shrink. I find I always get better results finishing wth regular joint compound. Just sands out better.


 For a couple repairs its actually not that bad if you put it on proper. (Aka not too thick).Although I always skim with regular compound. Problem with the regular joint compound is that it takes forever to dry!


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

Having skimmed lots of walls with and without Blue Dawn, I can't say that it consistently makes a noticeable difference. Lots of variables like: Type of Mud (All Purpose/Lightweight/Topping) Environmental conditions, Substrate, etc. make it hard to do a real scientific case study. As Many of the guys have suggested, I wouldn't do it on a High value Job (Commercial or Residential) just because of the liability. Never had a failure, or any weird Paint Snafu's, but why risk it on a big job.

FWIW: I have found when I need to skim coat, wetting it down correctly and rolling it properly tends to limit any bubbling and subsequent pockmarks more than Dishsoap ever did. If the consistency is right, and we are using the right kind of mud over a properly prepared surface, then we have substantially less problems with the finish than any sort of other remedy we have found.

*-EDIT-*

Comparing it to the old practice of peeing in Oil Paint. Whether or not he science was actual or the time period's equivalent to "Facebook Science." There were a lot of people who did it, and I can't comment on if it was a valuable practice or not!


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Woodco said:


> Well, thats great if you have the freedom to do multiple coats. I dont. I float with one good coat, and I sand prime and hang paper the next day. I get it pretty smooth, but its still gotta be sanded. The last time I used green all purpose it was a royal b1tch to sand. I vac sand it, so there is no dust anywhere, so my eyes would be fine, if I ever decided to try that.


Using Easysand imo gives you freedom to do more than one coat, as once it's set up you can do another coat after the 20 minutes or 45 minutes/etc. I've done 3 coats in one day on a really messed up wall from a mirror removal, with total thickness in some areas of the wall being about 3/16"-1/4". Dried, painted, and primed the next day. That's not possible with All Purpose. If you use All Purpose since it's a drying compound you need to wait until it's ideally 100% dry to do another coat, but with a setting compound it just has to be set but not dry for another coat. You also of course have the freedom while it's setting to knock down trowel marks and holidays, which you don't really have with All Purpose.

So to me it's better to shape with hot mud, then just use All Purpose as a sacrificial sanding layer so you don't have to sand the hot mud down, as it is worse to sand.


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## JohnBrown (Dec 25, 2021)

Bender said:


> It would seem like a surfactant problem waiting to happen.
> 
> On the other hand, we used to add a few capfuls of mineral spirits to our latex so it wouldn't bubble/fisheye when you rolled it.


When you mix mineral spirits in latex paint, it will coagulate and become a mess. It will not smooth out, only make a mess.

liar


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## Knobbe (Mar 14, 2021)

CApainter said:


> I'd like to see the outcome of a multi million dollar malpractice suit when the exhibit A lab report indicates the presence of Dawne dishwashing soap in the failing drywall compound.
> 
> Defendant's Council- "Well, you see your honor, Mr. Billy Bob Bletso here has been reveled in his painting community for not only the amazing stories he's shared over the years at the local paint stores, but also for his innovations, concoctions, and methodologies. All formulated in his own single car garage! Now I argue, that is about as patriotic as it gets. I rest my case your honor".
> 
> Judge- "Judgement for the plaintiff. Mr Bletso will pay for all damages incurred, by knowingly introducing a dish washing soap product into the joint compound identified in exhibit A, with blatant disregard to the joint compound's technical data sheet recommendations, or lack there of. This court is adjourned."


Whenever I come up with some hair brained idea or I hear of one this is the exact scenario I play through in my mind. "Your Honor..." then I usually walk away from the edge.
Many, many years ago I was a expert witness for a car company for buy back lawsuits and the stuff dreamed up by technicians almost made me bust out laughing in court. So many times I would tell the car company attorney "wave the white flag you ain't winning this one" after Billy Bob thought it was a good idea to soak brake pads in WD-40 overnight to stop brake squeak, then documented that on the work order.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Masterwork said:


> 20, and a lot of the other fast dry ones, are awful for sanding. I only use them for big holes, since it doesn't shrink. I find I always get better results finishing wth regular joint compound. Just sands out better.


I always prefer sheetrock 45, it is a nice balance between speed and toughness. I use Venetian plaster blades and find minimal sanding required after. What sanding is required is pretty light and these days I use a wet sanding for a smooth, zero dust finish. I really do not like any of the ready mix stuff! I find it too soft, easily contaminated if stored for later use and it takes up too much room in storage; it has a limited shelf life before mold sets in! I, for one, will not mess with the commercial formulation of a reliable company's product, IE: CGC. They would never make good on a complaint about product failure not used as created and applied as directed. Of course they are concerned about the bottom line, part of that concern is the reputation with the professional consumer; they really do work for our approval AND they do know we "talk".


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

More than once on this forum I talked about a BM product failure that ruined a huge faux finished, paint job. They paid for the entire job to be done again: labor, masking tape, sand paper everything!, right down to the last detail. Had I messed with their formulation, I'd have been SOL and deeply out of pocket. Good companies make good AFTER they check that it really was a problem with their product and you used the products as directed. It can be a costly mistake to be your own chemical engineer!


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## Fella (Dec 29, 2021)

CApainter said:


> I'd like to see the outcome of a multi million dollar malpractice suit when the exhibit A lab report indicates the presence of Dawne dishwashing soap in the failing drywall compound.
> 
> Defendant's Council- "Well, you see your honor, Mr. Billy Bob Bletso here has been reveled in his painting community for not only the amazing stories he's shared over the years at the local paint stores, but also for his innovations, concoctions, and methodologies. All formulated in his own single car garage! Now I argue, that is about as patriotic as it gets. I rest my case your honor".
> 
> Judge- "Judgement for the plaintiff. Mr Bletso will pay for all damages incurred, by knowingly introducing a dish washing soap product into the joint compound identified in exhibit A, with blatant disregard to the joint compound's technical data sheet recommendations, or lack there of. This court is adjourned."


Smh, what are you talking about, malpractice, lab report, we’re talking drywall mudding.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Fella said:


> Smh, what are you talking about, malpractice, lab report, we’re talking drywall mudding.


Welcome to PaintTalk. Feel free to make your second post an introduction, telling us a bit about what you do. The post you're mocking, although written in jest, does have an underlying truth to it in regards to potentially being SOL if you alter the formulation of a product and then experience a failure with said product. Hopefully that makes sense to you.


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## Crazy4paint (Dec 7, 2021)

JohnBrown said:


> When you mix mineral spirits in latex paint, it will coagulate and become a mess. It will not smooth out, only make a mess.
> 
> liar


You seriously joined paint talk to call someone a liar? For something they posted 6 years ago? That was most likely said sarcastically at the time? Wow


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## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

Crazy4paint said:


> You seriously joined paint talk to call someone a liar? For something they posted 6 years ago? That was most likely said sarcastically at the time? Wow


I read a few times of people doing that trick on here, so it likely wasn't sarcastic. The only experience I have in it is as a little kid in the early 2000s my mom bought paint and let me try painting a room at my old house, and I added turpentine to try to thin it and it turned into a giant mess and nobody really knew what was going on as they weren't painters. 

I think where I read it here, it worked more in older latex paints as some of the older latex paints were more of an emulsion formulation (as in, oil paint in water) whereas now they're not. So based on my one childhood experience and knowing modern formulations are different I wouldn't do it. One dude working at my local BM store recommended some sort of actual solvent for thinning Advance, I forget what solvent but I probably wouldn't do that either and I've had great luck with Advance and plain water for thinning it. 

I might be wrong, as I'm not a paint chemist, but I think there's 3-4 main vehicles you can use for a latex paint. It's glycol, alcohol, acetone, and ammonia. The older Behr products used to reek like acetone, so it's likely they were a sort of emulsion style formula, as acetone's the only VOC exempt solvent. Muralo/California I think was alcohol based from reading the SDS, but I think most plain normal latex paints are propylene glycol or ammonia based in some form, I think even PPG Breakthrough when I read the SDS said glycol based. 

The 100% best non-official non-approved latex paint additive I found that so far has never caused problems for any paint I've added it to (but I've never done it for professional work because I don't want to lose a warranty) is 91% isopropyl alcohol. I discovered the trick before I really started painting houses working on model kits (I guess I do enjoy painting as I did it for a hobby for a lot of years and wanna get back into my kits) where I was short on cash and decided to experiment by getting the $1 4oz bottles of acrylic "craft paint" and trying it out, as model paints are about $3-5 for 1oz jars of very thinned down paint, and I noticed the model paint smelled a ton like rubbing alcohol. So I got that paint and added alcohol to it, and besides thinning it for model use the solvent allowed it to adhere perfectly to polystyrene plastic without sanding and the working qualities were more or less identical to model paint, just I could make seemingly infinite amounts now, just sadly the flat/matte craft paints didn't work well as the solids were too gritty, but in gloss it was identical. 

I've tried it with a few other paints and it's improved them. Unlike thinning with plain water it actually tends to improve adhesion as now there's more solvent to etch into the surface, whereas thinning too much with just water weakens the paint as now there's less solvents/vehicle to etch the surface. I've also revived frozen paint with alcohol once (prior owner of my house left a quart of the exterior paint in the garage and years later I needed to do touch ups...) and it worked by basically melting it all back together again. I've read on here of alcohol disrupting some paint resins and curdling them too like turp or mineral spirits will but I've never seen it happen myself. 

Of some note, too, in model painting land people use Purple Power (alcohol based) and isopropyl alcohol to strip paint as well.


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