# Asking for payment upfront



## sweet3 (Aug 20, 2017)

Just wondering do any of you guys ask for payment upfront, our do you always complete the work than ask for payment?


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## mdZX (Jul 7, 2018)

Personally, I ask for 25-30% in advance and explain it locks them into our painting schedule and allows us to purchase sundries to protect and complete the job. (Using their money!)


sweet3 said:


> Just wondering do any of you guys ask for payment upfront, our do you always complete the work than ask for payment?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Yep^^^.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I always get material costs up front and my take when I'm done. The exception is regular repeat customers that I know will be there cash in hand, the second the job is done, they are the one's that also are generous with bonuses!


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

Never met a contractor that would give me cash before work! but i get what youre saying, about working for a homeowner. Ive never asked for anything up front, not even material costs. I can't really, my competitors don't. Never signed a contract for paint work either in 13 years, (i have however for remodel work, that included painting).


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Never take money up front specifically because it locks me into a schedule I won't like because they have a say in it.If I can't carry the burden of paint for a re-paint for a few days that a job is going to last I shouldn't do the job.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Local paint pro said:


> Never signed a contract for paint work either in 13 years, (i have however for remodel work, that included painting).


I do get signed contracts! It seems risky to me to not have a formal agreement, especially for new clients. I've had too many people who tried to avoid payment over the years. With my regulars it's just a formality and on occasion, I might do their work unsigned, but NEVER for a new client! As Samuel Goldwyn said: "A verbal contract is not worth the paper it's printed on!"


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Local paint pro said:


> Never met a contractor that would give me cash before work! but i get what youre saying, about working for a homeowner. Ive never asked for anything up front, not even material costs. I can't really, my competitors don't. Never signed a contract for paint work either in 13 years, (i have however for remodel work, that included painting).



When I work subs for a GC, he is responsible for supplying material, I just do the labor, so, nothing at the front end, there. (There was only one I ever agreed to sub for because he was always happy to pay for exceptional quality work.)


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

On bigger jobs, I like to get "progress" payments. 
If I get a weird feeling from the client I'll get a small deposit up front, which shows commitment.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Always get a signed proposal/contract!*



sweet3 said:


> Just wondering do any of you guys ask for payment upfront, our do you always complete the work than ask for payment?


I normally get 1/3 down to start, but that can vary with the job. One thing I normally always start with is a signed proposal.

A signed proposal does at least 2 things. 1) it documents that the customer read through everything and then approved the scope of the work as well as any details of payment, 2) the proposal documents not only the details of the work to be done, but also contains a clause that makes it plain that any other work will be done at an additional price.

Here are the terms and acceptance verbiage I have been using for a while:

_TERMS: All material is to be as specified and the above work to be performed as proposed above in a substantial workmanlike manner for the sum of $____.00 to be paid as follows: Down-payment of 1/3 of total materials and labor ($___.00) to start work, balance due upon completion of work. 

If person responsible for payment is out of the local area and agent will be inspecting and approving final work, balance due of payment is to be left in escrow with agent for immediate disbursement to Fred Waidner after work has been done. 

All materials remain property of Ima Painter until all materials and labor are paid in full.

Any alteration or deviation from above specifications involving extra costs will be executed only upon written order and will become an extra charge over and above what is stated in this Proposal. All agreements are contingent upon delays beyond our control.



Respectfully submitted by: _______________________________________ on ____/____/______

Note: This Proposal may be withdrawn by us if not accepted within 30 days.





Acceptance of Proposal

The above prices, specifications and conditions are satisfactory and are hereby accepted. Ima Painter is authorized to do the work as specified. Payments will be made as outlined above. The signor below agrees to be responsible for full payment of the amount of this Proposal if accepted.



__________________________________________ ________________
Signature of person authorizing above proposal and terms. Capacity of Signor: Principle
or Agent

__________________________________________ ____/____/_______
Printed name of person authorizing above proposal and terms. Date




__________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________
Mailing address if different from worksite address Phone Number



__________________________________________________________________________
City, State and zip



__________________________________________________________________________
Email_

This is all in Word form, so you can alter it in any way you need to for each particular customer. I have been using this since I got back into painting about 5 years ago and have never had anyone unwilling to fill the proposal out and sign it. If someone is unwilling to sign it, find out why and make any changes that both of you would be willing to agree to. Otherwise, let them know that you cannot start work without a signature. You might also tell them that a signed proposal works both ways, that they can always point out if you didn't do something that you agreed to do.

futtyos


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

I usually send an electronic "estimate" which my customers can just click accept and it automatically updates the status of the document binding the terms. If I am certain about the work and what it will take, I'll send them a "quote" which is basically the same but I get less wiggle room. I do a lot of remodels and am not strictly a painter which means I could have several contracts per job (wall paper removal, trim, paint, hardware for instance) and with each I will get an up front deposit and sometimes I will collect draws from the total if it looks like I will have to wait for sparkies, floor guys or plumbers to finish. Any add-ons will go on the final bill as a separate line item.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Program?*



Painting Practice said:


> I usually send an electronic "estimate" which my customers can just click accept and it automatically updates the status of the document binding the terms. If I am certain about the work and what it will take, I'll send them a "quote" which is basically the same but I get less wiggle room. I do a lot of remodels and am not strictly a painter which means I could have several contracts per job (wall paper removal, trim, paint, hardware for instance) and with each I will get an up front deposit and sometimes I will collect draws from the total if it looks like I will have to wait for sparkies, floor guys or plumbers to finish. Any add-ons will go on the final bill as a separate line item.


PP, can you tell us what program you are using? Sounds interesting.

futtyos


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

A legitimate and respectable business requires a deposit and a payment schedule. 

This is how my contract reads:

*PROJECT COST*​
*TOTAL PRICE:* $6,685.00

*PAYMENT SCHEDULE:*

A DEPOSIT TOTALING 10% DUE UPON SIGNING OF AGREEMENT: $668.00
A DEPOSIT TOTALING 1/2 DUE UPON START OF WORK: $2,674.50
REMAINING BALANCE DUE BY THE END OF BUSINESS ON THE DAY OF COMPLETION: $3,342.50


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

kmp said:


> Never take money up front specifically because it locks me into a schedule I won't like because they have a say in it.If I can't carry the burden of paint for a re-paint for a few days that a job is going to last I shouldn't do the job.


It’s not a matter of being able to carry the burden of the paint for the length of a job (at least for me), but more about putting the onus of commitment onto the customer as well as making sure any money laid out for materials will have been taken care of should a “situation” arise. Trust me, you only have to have it happen once where payment becomes an issue, regardless of the reason, and you will feel differently about deposits.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

It really depends on the material budget, and length of job. For anything thats gonna take more than a couple hundred in materials, I ask for a material deposit, which is rounded up, but I usually wait until I actually start work. I might go and prep for a day, then ask for a check to buy the paint with, cuz we're talking hundreds of dollars there. 

Of course, it all depends on how MY bank account is doing too... Generally, if I have to buy a bunch of materials, or pay guys at the end of the week, I ask for a material deposit, with some added on. I've had GC's tell me to just get a big check from them in the beginning, so they dont have to deal with writing me checks all the time. I dont like doing it that way, though. It makes me nervous getting a 10,000 check before I start the job, when Im on my own. But all in all though, the big boys get money up front. If you do get burned, at least it isnt for as much...

Then again, if Im doing a wallpaper job, where Im not really buying materials, I wait till the job is over. I take a small check after floating the wall, just to make sure they have me finish. You have to judge your client too. Any red flags, means get more up front. 

At the very least, have a plan of when you expect to get paid, and for what. I know some commercial work, it can take four months to get paid. I just cant do that kind of thing, unless its huge money, and I get a very big deposit. 

I've had realtors tell me they could get me a lot ofwork, if I could hold off on getting paid until they sell the house, cuz they sometimes have to pay for repaints out of their own pocket. I've never actually had to do that though, but I told them I'd at least need materials and a partial, and an upcharge for the wait


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## Painting Practice (Jul 21, 2013)

futtyos said:


> PP, can you tell us what program you are using? Sounds interesting.
> 
> futtyos


Sure. I use Aynax.


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

I have only had payment issues at the end of the job, and only a couple of times in 20+ years of on my own. The times I had issues, one was threatened with small claims and the other was served papers and it was amazing how fast they paid up. I have gotten jobs because I don't take deposits.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

kmp said:


> I have only had payment issues at the end of the job, and only a couple of times in 20+ years of on my own. The times I had issues, one was threatened with small claims and the other was served papers and it was amazing how fast they paid up. I have gotten jobs because I don't take deposits.



Personally, I prefer to get paid than run around filing papers! Also, I hope you still get them to sign off on the work, no contract would make a court hearing difficult, if it went that far. It's bad enough to have a court hearing when you do have a signed contract.:sad:


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Always had a contract. One of those it was a gc that didn't want to make a final payment and the other a re-paint. You can get screwed regardless of weather you get a deposit or not.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

kmp said:


> Always had a contract. One of those it was a gc that didn't want to make a final payment and the other a re-paint. You can get screwed regardless of weather you get a deposit or not.


I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.

There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.

I get 50% at the start of every job or I don't do the job. And that is whether or not I buy the paint, or the homeowner buys the paint. I get half of the price of the job before I start. This puts the business in the drivers seat. I will not be at the mercy of the customer. 

I have had bad experiences with; 

Last minute cancelations (leaving me out of work)
Last minute postponements (leaving me out of work)
Contract mis-understandings (leaving me out of work)
Breach of contract (leaving me out of work)
And a list of other dumb stuff customers pull that have cost me time and ultimately money.
Plus, getting a deposit puts the business in the position to get all the paints and supplies before the work begins. No matter if I have 3 days of prep work before the painting begins, I want 1 trip to the paint store before the job is started. My time is valuable.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.
> 
> There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you wrote.

As a OMS, it is tempting to want to do business with a handshake and a good faith agreement. And I will admit that with repeat customers I will typically let deposits slide unless they are large jobs with significant materials outlays. 

Out here, contacts are required for amounts over $2000 but I will still draw them up for jobs down to around $500, and even less than that if my “spider senses” tell me to do so. There are no requirements about deposits.

I will add that I have never had an adverse reaction from a customer that was asked for a deposit - especially if it is made clear in the bid that one will be required and it is treated as just a normal business expectation.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.
> 
> There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.
> 
> ...



I dunno. Sounds too corporate to me. 50% up front? It's all labour.. So what if the customer does bail. Do you just keep thier money? If it's a huge job that you've pushed aside other work for I can understand keeping a small amount if it's disrupts your schedule. 
However I wouldn't blow it all on paint until I was sure the job was happening. 
Problem around here, is there are a ton of douche bag contractors that take deposits and then never show up. 
On the other hand, if the client does refuse a small deposit, that can raise the red flag early...


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## darrpreb00 (Aug 31, 2008)

I’ve done it all and I settled an a flat $500 on all jobs. $300 if under $1k.

I love it. Always remember the deposit price, they can’t bail or have thier cousin do it. They aren’t nervous. 

“I requested you to sign the proposal and send it back to me with a $500 retainer to gain a spot on our calendar”


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

For new customers once the eBid is signed I require a $200 scheduling deposit. How the payment schedule goes from there depends on the size of the job.

Anything below 3k is balance on completion. 3k to 10k is 1/3 on start (minus the scheduling deposit) and balance on completion.

10k and up is 1/3 on start, 1/3 when half way, 1/3 on completion.

I've never gotten ripped off or had to chase people for money but I'm not naive enough to think it can't happen. A payment schedule is my way of protecting myself against the inevitable and I haven't knowingly lost a job due to it. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## jaipuronlineservices (Nov 20, 2018)

this is really amzing and practicale topic in india we already told client the total payment structure and take 20% advance that will count labor and matrerial cost and after complete some work we get next payment .


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

50% on every job, exceptions being real estate agents (paid on closing).


50% upon completion.


If you feel sketchy about the customers or they are real picky. Break down your percentages. 



Example:
50% prior to work commencing
25% upon completion of priming
15% due upon completion of painting
10% due upon final touch-ups. 





That helps with not getting burned too badly, in the event you run into sketchy people. Some are either very anal retentive and others put on that front to have a 'valid' excuse to not pay you. When talking with them, you'll see get a 'feel' for them. 



The other reason for a % breakdown is because you might have a larger, more drawn out job, and you need to prevent a cash flow issue. 


Good luck.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Another advantage to requiring a deposit; if a customer balks at putting down a fair and reasonable amount, it’s a good red flag to consider before proceeding.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

HC-Raad said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.
> 
> There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.
> 
> ...


Funny thing. Since I started taking deposits NOT ONE customer has ever bailed on me. The way I look at it, if I’m making a commitment to a customer, I expect one back. Having SOME sort of financial commitment from the customer weeds out the deadbeats.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.
> 
> There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.
> 
> ...




Keep in mind not everyone is allowed to request 50% deposit-depending on location there are often laws about how much is allowed for residential ‘home improvement contracts’ (which is all unless its a new build). 

In California, any job bid exceeding $500 “a residential deposit is limited to 10% of the contract price OR $1,000, whichever is LESS..” The only way to legally charge more is if a blanket performance & payment bond is filed. 

This almost never covers cost of supplies not to mention time & gas to get um.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> I don't mean to sound like I am picking on you.
> 
> There are "self employed painters" and then there are "painting company owners". You are not thinking like a businessman, you my friend are thinking like a painter/worker.
> 
> ...


Well, my friend, there is no way you'd ever work for me!!! I would NEVER pay 50% of a contract at start for any job of . For a business to ask for so much up front is ridiculous, and projects a very unprofessional image. To ask for such a large starting payment just looks shifty.

If your business requires such a large portion at the start, you must be on a shaky foundation. At least that's the image it presents...one of desperation.

And if your business doesn't have credit enough to cover materials for a month or two, again projecting a pretty shaky image.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Well, my friend, there is no way you'd ever work for me!!! I would NEVER pay 50% of a contract at start for any job of . For a business to ask for so much up front is ridiculous, and projects a very unprofessional image. To ask for such a large starting payment just looks shifty.
> 
> If your business requires such a large portion at the start, you must be on a shaky foundation. At least that's the image it presents...one of desperation.
> 
> And if your business doesn't have credit enough to cover materials for a month or two, again projecting a pretty shaky image.


If it were my house I’d opt for Jokesters Painting,..you know, the one who doesn’t use business cards and asks for mobile #’s, thinking he’d probably only require 10% down.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Well, my friend, there is no way you'd ever work for me!!! I would NEVER pay 50% of a contract at start for any job of . For a business to ask for so much up front is ridiculous, and projects a very unprofessional image. To ask for such a large starting payment just looks shifty.
> 
> If your business requires such a large portion at the start, you must be on a shaky foundation. At least that's the image it presents...one of desperation.
> 
> And if your business doesn't have credit enough to cover materials for a month or two, again projecting a pretty shaky image.


You my friend are a painter. Not a businessman. I get 50% at start on every job (it's the industry standard). It's the power of the business card! :vs_cool: And my wealthy clients don't question it - ever. Guess it's because I am not the toothless painter that reeks of Marlboro. :biggrin:

Here's a video for you. Executive Officer *Christian D. Malesic, Master of Business Administration* :wink:

WATCH VIDEO:


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

I also require 50% up front or I ain't doing the job! My business is not a bank I do not offer credit to customers I have no idea if they pay bill's on time or not.. I have a list of former clients that I can give that will tell you my business is NOT on shaky ground...


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You my friend are a painter. Not a businessman. I get 50% at start on every job (it's the industry standard). It's the power of the business card! :vs_cool: And my wealthy clients don't question it - ever. Guess it's because I am not the toothless painter that reeks of Marlboro. :biggrin:
> 
> Here's a video for you. Executive Officer *Christian D. Malesic, Master of Business Administration* :wink:
> 
> WATCH VIDEO: https://youtu.be/R3buk63O2GE


I don’t know where you’re getting your information from...a 50% deposit isn’t industry standard and isn’t even legal in many states.

Requiring a 50% deposit could land you in hot water in some states, rendering your contract null & void for not being in compliance with the laws. I’m hoping LB could chime in, providing some insight on PA’s Consumer Protection Act. I think the limitations are 1/3 down along with being liable for triple damages an attorney fees if not in compliance..

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty certain MA law states that any deposit required to be paid in advance of the start of the work cannot exceed 1/3 of the total contract price or the actual cost of any material or equipment of a special order or custom made nature, which must be ordered in advance of the start of the work to assure that the project will proceed on schedule. 

MD limits the initial payment on home improvement work to one-third of the contract price.

CA laws state that a deposit can’t exceed $1,000 or 10% of the contract price, whichever is less, PPD touching on that as well.

To my recollection there’s 5 additional states with laws limiting deposit amounts.

Some states such as NY also have statewide laws requiring contractors to put all payments into a trust (escrow) account and use it only for the job until it is substantially complete. The money can be withdrawn according to the payment schedule set forth in the contract, or if the client breaches the contract. Contractors are legally required to disclose where the money will be held in escrow. The exception to the escrow requirement is if a contractor can offer written proof they have bond insurance to protect the money.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You my friend are a painter. Not a businessman. I get 50% at start on every job (it's the industry standard). It's the power of the business card! :vs_cool: And my wealthy clients don't question it - ever. Guess it's because I am not the toothless painter that reeks of Marlboro. :biggrin:
> 
> Here's a video for you. Executive Officer *Christian D. Malesic, Master of Business Administration* :wink:
> 
> WATCH VIDEO: https://youtu.be/R3buk63O2GE


No, I'm a retired painter that built a business over 40 years and managed to retire (pretty darned comfortably I may add) by 60. So your videos are of no use to me, thanks.

50% is hardly industry standard...quite plainly, you don't know what your talking about.

Helpful Hint #134 - There is a lot of misinformation and untruths on 
Youtube.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> I don’t know where you’re getting your information from...a 50% deposit isn’t industry standard and isn’t even legal in many states.
> 
> Requiring a 50% deposit could land you in hot water in some states, rendering your contract null & void for not being in compliance with the laws. I’m hoping LB could chime in, providing some insight on PA’s Consumer Protection Act. I think the limitations are 1/3 down along with being liable for triple damages an attorney fees if not in compliance..


Yes, PA is 1/3 on any contract over $1,000. It appears HC needs to watch a video or two on contract law. It would appear most of his business acumen has been acquired online and not through proper education, experience, and legal counsel.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Yes, PA is 1/3 on any contract over $1,000. It appears HC needs to watch a video or two on contract law. It would appear most of his business acumen has been acquired online and not through proper education, experience, and legal counsel.



Not a lawyer but I don't believe montana or wyoming (HC located in wyoming I think) have any such consumer protection laws. 1/3 -1/2 down are fairly common here.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Not a lawyer but I don't believe montana or wyoming (HC located in wyoming I think) have any such consumer protection laws. 1/3 -1/2 down are fairly common here.



That very well could be. If so, those states are the exception, not the rule. HC is on here preaching to the masses "if you don't charge 50% upfront, you're not a businessman. Only foolish toothless painters do such things". Not only poor practice IMO, but illegal in many locals. 

I can tell you one thing, by refusing to enter into contracts without 50% at start, a business is eliminating larger jobs. You would be hard pressed to find anybody willing to fork over $150,000 at start on a $300,000 contract. 
Or even $25,000 on a $50,000 contract. It just doesn't happen.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Local . Never signed a contract for paint work either in 13 years said:


> The first job I did in Toronto, 40 years ago, I was 3 weeks in on a 1 week job and no contract. I screamed at the HO on my last day "Mrs.HO, Go away and let me work!! Money or no, I am finished here tonight!" She said "your very upset with me?!" Replied "Lady, I am on my third week of a 1 week job with no signed contract and losing money by the minute! Now Go Away!" I finished, got paid and postponed all future jobs while I waited for the printers to deliver my contract forms. After that I swore, even my grandmother would have to sign. I never had to have a contract in my home/starting town but the big city was a whole new game!


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Working without a contract is just plain stupid...and something I often did when working for long established repeat residential customers. Never when doing commercial work or working for GCs. 

Working without a signed contract does involve some risk, but it never cost me a dime. As I said, I was very selective when nixing the contract. I would not recommend it as a sound business practice.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> A legitimate and respectable business requires a deposit and a payment schedule.
> 
> This is how my contract reads:
> 
> ...


Wow, a 60% payment required before any work is even done? I guess that is okay if you can pull it off, but in many states, you would be running afoul of the law by asking for that much. 

Most online sites giving advice on how much consumers should be expecting to pay up front for construction work say anything more than 1/4 to 1/3 should be a red flag.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

That's one I just took note of...balance due on day of completion. While that is nice, to demand same day payment is pushing the envelope. It may be within reason on a smaller job, but many people will want a few days to inspect the work on larger jobs. I know I would. If a contractor came to me with a contract like the one outlined in this thread, I'd kick him out of my house. Too many red flags.

2% discount/10 day Net/30

And the 2% doesn't cost the company a dime because it's already figured in the bid...it makes you money if the customer chooses to not take advantage


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Flip the script and put yourself on the consumer side. My dad got an insurance settlement for a new roof this past summer and I found a roofer from a builder that I know well. The guy agreed to do the job for the amount of the insurance check, which was a good deal for us. The roofer wanted a 50% deposit, which I found excessive, but I agreed because of the reference from my business associate. The roofer stated that the deposit would put us on the schedule for about 3 weeks out. Reasonable. Long story short I had to hound the guy and eventually get the GC involved to get the damn job done a few months later. The guy had all kinds of excuses for the delay buy the worst part of the whole deal was that I advised my father to pay the deposit. Never again. I think 25% is reasonable,that's what I usually put in my contracts, and I collect it when I start the job.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

It's not Youtube or Wiki, but a fair summary from the Chicago Tribune...https://www.chicagotribune.com/real-estate/chi-thu_payment_0103jan03-story.html


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Making a profit needs to be at the top of list, but right along side of that is respect for the customer. Treat your customers well (even the ones who may not deserve it) and you will never be without work. And work is where the money is.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> That's one I just took note of...balance due on day of completion. While that is nice, to demand same day payment is pushing the envelope. It may be within reason on a smaller job, but many people will want a few days to inspect the work on larger jobs. I know I would. If a contractor came to me with a contract like the one outlined in this thread, I'd kick him out of my house. Too many red flags.
> 
> 2% discount/10 day Net/30
> 
> And the 2% doesn't cost the company a dime because it's already figured in the bid...it makes you money if the customer chooses to not take advantage


Yeah, noticed that myself. Typically I am content if I am paid by the end of the month that the work was completed in. The ones that frost my heinie are those that need (or want) it done yesterday but then drag their feet about paying.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

RH said:


> Yeah, noticed that myself. Typically I am content if I am paid by the end of the month that the work was completed in. The ones that frost my heinie are those that need (or want) it done yesterday but then drag their feet about paying.


 Yep, the work I do for the local nursing home goes like this..."Hi Bill. We have an apartment that needs painting by the end of the week." It's already Thursday. Then I wait for 2 months to get paid. They implemented a new payment system to make things go faster for all the contractors who work for them. I'm now at 3 months having not been paid for work I've done for them.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I require a 5% good faith scheduling deposit upon signing (there’s usually a +/- 6 month lag period from the contract execution date to the actual start date), followed by a 15% production deposit due 30 days prior to the start date. With most of my work being T&M, the deposits are based on a pre-determined budget. Once the project commences, I invoice bi-weekly (every 2 weeks) with 30 day payment terms, deducting a percentage of the deposit from each invoice spread out out equally over the duration of the project, bi-weekly invoicing resulting in a positive cash flow over the duration of the project.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> That's one I just took note of...balance due on day of completion.


Many states have retainage laws. Expecting final payment due on completion wouldn’t fly and would be almost laughable in many markets, most primary contractors and private parties exercising retainage rights. Standard retainage policy though written agreement in my region is 10% of the contract price being retained for a 30 day period.

One of the reasons for retainage laws is to reduce or eliminate undue financial burden on parties having to finance others in the feeding chain. The longer the feeding chain, the slower the issuance of payment.

I’m usually 4th in the feeding chain, my invoicing being provided to the primary contractor, their invoicing going to the designer/architect, the architect’s invoicing going to the owner or owner’s rep for final approval, the payment process is then reversed having to go back down the chain through multiple tiers before receiving payment.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yep, the work I do for the local nursing home goes like this..."Hi Bill. We have an apartment that needs painting by the end of the week." It's already Thursday. Then I wait for 2 months to get paid. They implemented a new payment system to make things go faster for all the contractors who work for them. I'm now at 3 months having not been paid for work I've done for them.


I’ve extended terms on final invoicing 120 days on a few occasions, although not the best practice, I’ve never been burnt. It sux having to wait 3 months, feeling your pain. It sometimes goes with the turf.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

RH said:


> Wow, a *60% payment required before* any work is even done? I guess that is okay if you can pull it off, but in many states, you would be running afoul of the law by asking for that much.


No, you are reading the payment schedule wrong. Did you do the math? I get 50% by start, not 60%. And in my state, it's permissible. 

*TOTAL PRICE:* $6,685.00

*PAYMENT SCHEDULE:*
- DUE UPON SIGNING OF AGREEMENT: $668.00
- DUE UPON START OF WORK: $2,674.50
- DUE BY THE END OF BUSINESS ON THE DAY OF COMPLETION: $3,342.50



RH said:


> Most online sites giving advice on how much consumers should be expecting to pay up front for construction work say anything more than 1/4 to 1/3 should be a red flag.


I don't know what john doe sites you are referring to. Why would you give any credibility to some john does opinion regarding what you should do with your business? Jobs under 10k, I get 50% on day one religiously and I've been doing it for years, and it's never been a problem for the customer. I deliver the goods 100% of the time, every time. 

If a job is over 10k, I do 1/3 to start then progress payments.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Yep, the work I do for the local nursing home goes like this..."Hi Bill. We have an apartment that needs painting by the end of the week." It's already Thursday. Then I wait for 2 months to get paid. They implemented a new payment system to make things go faster for all the contractors who work for them. I'm now at 3 months having not been paid for work I've done for them.


Yes, it's that way when you do work for apartments, builders etc. Not residential customers.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

RH said:


> Yeah, noticed that myself. *Typically I am content if I am paid by the end of the month that the work was completed in.* The ones that frost my heinie are those that need (or want) it done yesterday but then drag their feet about paying.


You are content? Why are you doing this to yourself? Take control of your business. You are not doing charity. Cash on delivery (COD) 100% of the time on residential. 

You guys can run your businesses anyway you want - that's up to you. SMH


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> I’ve extended terms on final invoicing 120 days on a few occasions, although not the best practice, I’ve never been burnt. It sux having to wait 3 months, feeling your pain. It sometimes goes with the turf.


120 days on commercial work is speedy payment!:sad:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> I don’t know where you’re getting your information from...a 50% deposit isn’t industry standard and isn’t even legal in many states.


Did you even watch the video? I realize state to state laws vary. I am not telling anyone here what they should do. I only stated what "I do"!

According to Executive Officer Christian D. Malesic, with a master in Business Administration (which means - he has a masters degree in Business Administration). So the guy knows his chit! And according to him, *the best contractors in the USA (providing the law in their state allows it) * are getting 50% to start on jobs under 5k and 1/3 upfront on jobs over 5k.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> It's not Youtube or Wiki, but a fair summary from the Chicago Tribune...https://www.chicagotribune.com/real-estate/chi-thu_payment_0103jan03-story.html


BY MIKE MCCLINTOCK - So now you run your business according to a journalists opinion? SMH!


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Why would you give any credibility to some john does opinion regarding what you should do with your business? .



My thoughts exactly, John Doe.

Read the article from the Chicago Tribune I posted above (post #44). It's not my opinion. It was written by a journalist with no skin in the game and reflects the general prevailing opinion in the home improvement industry.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> No, you are reading the payment schedule wrong. Did you do the math? I get 50% by start, not 60%. And in my state, it's permissible.
> 
> *TOTAL PRICE:* $6,685.00
> 
> ...



Well, if you are asking for 10% at the time of signing a contract, and then another 50% when you start work, that adds up to 60% paid before you have actually done any work, which is what I wrote. And by any “work”, I mean painting. I fully realize that ordering and picking up the product and any needed sundries is something that needs to be done in there at some point.

Regarding the sites, they are not “John Doe” sites (which I guess means they were generic articles written by some uniformed shmoe) but sites about consumers rights and what most HOs should look for when doing business with contractors. Some were sponsored by different states.

As for being content about when I expect payment, I simply meant that getting paid at the end of the month is a fairly normal expectation as far as I am concerned. Many people get paid themselves at that time so it is reasonable to expect my payment then as well. And since I don’t run my business on a shoestring budget (not implying that YOU do) waiting until then is no hardship. I don’t consider it charity nor do I feel I am hurting my business by doing so (both of my main suppliers bill at the first of the month as did a tree service company, a pest control company, and a plumber we dealt with over the past few months - and all are well established and successful businesses).

And, as you stated, how we chose to run our respective businesses is fine, as long as it works for us. On that point we can agree.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> BY MIKE MCCLINTOCK - So now you run your business according to a journalists opinion? SMH!


I certainly hope we can still rely on basic non-political information journalists report in a major paper. I'd be willing to bet it's just the unbiased facts. smhx2

I'd feel more comfortable using that information than anything you have brought to the topic:biggrin:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Did you even watch the video? I realize state to state laws vary. I am not telling anyone here what they should do. I only stated what "I do"!
> 
> According to Executive Officer Christian D. Malesic, with a master in Business Administration (which means - he has a masters degree in Business Administration). So the guy knows his chit! And according to him, *the best contractors in the USA (providing the law in their state allows it) * are getting 50% to start on jobs under 5k and 1/3 upfront on jobs over 5k.


I did see the video. Thanks for posting it. I agree with you on 50% as being more than reasonable with the #’s you’re speaking of. I utilize subcontractors for specialty work outside my industry class code, and it’s common practice for me to provide them with 50% prior to start and 50% on completion for subcontracted services up to ~ $20K, give or take. I prefer paying 2 large lump sums. I even think that in most any market, provided it’s in compliance with consumer protection laws, that a 50% deposit prior to start on a even something in the $10,000 range is reasonable, granted the contractor is a trusted resource. When dealing with bigger #’s, I think you’d start losing prospects .


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> 120 days on commercial work is speedy payment!:sad:


I’ve always shyed away from commercial work for that and other reasons, yet with commercial work, I’m certain that the greater risk yields greater rewards. 

I’ve done a couple residences of the partner owners of two of the largest privately held commercial high rise outfits, being invited on to price out commercial work, yet declined due to it being entirely beyond my realm of comfort and knowledge. I was told that I’d need bank of at least $800K to operate in that type of market.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I certainly hope we can still rely on basic non-political information journalists report in a major paper. I'd be willing to bet it's just the unbiased facts. smhx2
> 
> I'd feel more comfortable using that information than anything you have brought to the topic:biggrin:


So you take a Journalist opinion in Chicago (today it's an article on contractors, tomorrow it‘s an article on politics, the next day it‘s about sports), (over a Business major of the Home Builders Association of Berks County Pa (your state)? 

Guess what, I have taken Christian D. Malesic advice and it has worked out fantastic for me over the past 5 years. 

You can keep listening to journalists telling you how to live your life and I will listen to business majors doing seminars. SMH :vs_smirk:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> *Many states have retainage laws. Expecting final payment due on completion wouldn’t fly and would be almost laughable in many markets*, most primary contractors and private parties exercising retainage rights. Standard retainage policy though written agreement in my region is 10% of the contract price being retained for a 30 day period.


You are referring to government or state paint jobs and/or general contractors paying subcontractors. Not residential re-paints where the business deals directly with the consumer, (which is what I speak of). And if I am not correct, please produce the statute law in each state that states otherwise.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You are referring to government or state paint jobs. Not residential re-paints (which is what I speak of). And if I am not correct, please produce the statute law in each state the states otherwise.


Retainage laws vary by state. Some states don’t have retainage laws for private work, yet many states do. They’re pretty common in my region for new residential work.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You are referring to government or state paint jobs and/or general contractors paying subcontractors. Not residential re-paints where the business deals directly with the consumer, (which is what I speak of). And if I am not correct, please produce the statute law in each state that states otherwise.


https://www.keglerbrown.com/content/uploads/2018/09/Retainage-Law-in-the-50-States-2018.pdf


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> So you take a Journalist opinion in Chicago (today it's an article on contractors, tomorrow it‘s an article on politics, the next day it‘s about sports), (over a Business major of the Home Builders Association of Berks County Pa (your state)?
> 
> Guess what, I have taken Christian D. Malesic advice and it has worked out fantastic for me over the past 5 years.
> 
> You can keep listening to journalists telling you how to live your life and I will listen to business majors doing seminars. SMH :vs_smirk:


Yeah, well I've been around quite a few credentialed professionals who were the head of organizations. Some were outstanding competent individuals and others I'd say the only thing that exceeded the length of their academic pedigree was their idiocy. As I don't personally know Mr. Malesic I really can't attest to which category he belongs. I do know I do not agree with his views on this subject. For many business a 50% down payment demand will hurt the image of the business...IMO. And if it hurts the image, it hurts the business. But if it works for you, great. 

The newspaper article is to provide facts....the fact that most in the industry feel it is wise to limit down payments. This is also evident in the fact many states limit them. The video represents a business philosophy, more subjective, not fact.

Congratulations on your five years. You've made it longer than most. Let me know when you make it to 40. 

Gotta go brush my tooth .


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Retainage laws vary by state. Some states don’t have retainage laws for private work, yet many states do. They’re pretty common in my region for new residential work.


*I have attached Retainage-Law-in-the-50-States-2018* by Foundation of the American Subcontractors Association, Inc.

It refers to construction not residential re-paints or home improvements. Show me otherwise. Thanks!


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You are referring to government or state paint jobs and/or general contractors paying subcontractors. Not residential re-paints where the business deals directly with the consumer, (which is what I speak of). And if I am not correct, please produce the statute law in each state that states otherwise.


We can argue business philosophy all day long....but I strongly suggest you review your states contract and consumer protection laws.

I'm certain Mr. Malesic would agree.:biggrin:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> *I have attached Retainage-Law-in-the-50-States-2018* by Foundation of the American Subcontractors Association, Inc.
> 
> It refers to construction not residential re-paints or home improvements. Show me otherwise. Thanks!


I never stated or implied that the retainage laws applied to residential repaints. They do apply for home improvements if the improvements are capital improvements to real property.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

HC-Raad said:


> *I have attached Retainage-Law-in-the-50-States-2018* by Foundation of the American Subcontractors Association, Inc.
> 
> It refers to construction not residential re-paints or home improvements. Show me otherwise. Thanks!


Thanks for the link, but from what I understand (not being a lawyer - and not trying to play one on PT) retainage is not the same as deposits required by the contractors.
Deposits are (obviously) designed to benefit the contractor, whereas retainages are designed to protect the customer, at least that’s how I understand it from what I read in the link.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

RH said:


> Thanks for the link, but from what I understand (not being a lawyer - and not trying to play one on PT) retainage is not the same as deposits required by the contractors.


Somewhere along the way we were also discussing the" payment upon same business day of completion" clause. 

Which leads me to the question.... what if the job is completed on a Saturday, Sunday or Federal holiday?:surprise:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Gotta go brush my tooth .


LMAO over your tooth comment...while brushing your one tooth, you might consider washing that Marlboro smoke smell off of you as mentioned in HC’s prior post ...coming from one faux wanna be business person to another.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I spent a little time researching Mr. Malesic online. It appears he is currently heading up the PA Veterinary Medical Association. Educated....he has four college degrees. I don't see anywhere in his resume where he has ever owned or operated a _business_ in the private sector. He appears to have made a career out of heading organizations where profit is immaterial to the entity's continued operation. Huh???:vs_worry:


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

This has been fascinating to read. Obvs we all have tweaked the rules to do what works for our own enterprises. As long as it’s legal,right?

I used to do zero up front- that doesn’t work. People want to hang on their money as long as possible. I mean I had signed contracts with a down payment stipulated and was ignored. It took me a bit to speak up. “Yes, I require a deposit. That way we’re all on the same page. “

I did have it at 50% for a while, when my competitor did it. Then I realized you can’t do that in Maryland. I only once was balked at about it. Edit- However many people still give me 50% up front. Why? IDK. 

My residential clients pay the balance on the day of completion. It’s never been a problem. I give them a heads up of when I expect to be finished. 

IDK, hate to say it but, maybe I can get away with it because I’m a woman??


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Alchemy Redux said:


> LMAO over your tooth comment...while brushing your one tooth, you might consider washing that Marlboro smoke smell off of you as mentioned in HC’s prior post ...coming from one faux wanna be business person to another.


Wash??? ...why bother washin'. Smell , dirt, and paint just gonna' come right on back the next day.:icon_cheesygrin:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I spent a little time researching Mr. Malesic online. It appears he is currently heading up the PA Veterinary Medical Association. Educated....he has four college degrees. I don't see anywhere in his resume where he has ever owned or operated a _business_ in the private sector. He appears to have made a career out of heading organizations where profit is immaterial to the entity's continued operation. Huh???:vs_worry:


Thermometers have degrees too and you know what vets do with them...


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

RH said:


> *Well, if you are asking for 10% at the time of signing a contract, and then another 50% when you start work, that adds up to 60%* paid before you have actually done any work, which is what I wrote. And by any “work”, I mean painting. I fully realize that ordering and picking up the product and any needed sundries is something that needs to be done in there at some point.


But that is not what my contract states and you are AGAIN, mis-reading my payment schedule. 

*TOTAL PRICE: $6,685.00*
A DEPOSIT TOTALING 10% DUE UPON SIGNING OF AGREEMENT: $668.00 (this is to put the customer in the schedule).
A DEPOSIT *TOTALING* 1/2 DUE UPON START OF WORK: $2,674.50
(interpretation: at start of work a payment totaling 50% of the total cost of the job is due). If you already paid 10%, then you pay 40% which totals 50% of the total cost of the job. Most HO are smart enough to understand this. 

$668 + start of work - $2,674.50 = $3,342.50
*10% at signing + $2,674.50 at start totals 50%*


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> My thoughts exactly, John Doe.
> 
> Read the article from the Chicago Tribune I posted above (post #44). It's not my opinion. It was written by a journalist with no skin in the game and reflects the general prevailing opinion in the home improvement industry.


Christian D. Malesic, may not be someone you know, but this is a professional with a *masters degree in Business * (something you and most PT members don't have), who teaches contractors. The journalists opinions are based on consumer opinions. Not the opinions of any form of the home improvement industry therefore, his opinions have no merit. 

Christian D. Malesic's video was before The Home Builders Association of Berks County, PA, USA provides education & continuous improvement seminars, round-table discussions, and training on business & construction topics of all shapes & sizes on a frequent basis. Beginning in 2012, the HBA started recording some of these sessions and editing the content into packets of concise, usable information as a service to our members and the business community at large. 

If you are looking to run a business successfully, I suggest you don't rely on a journalists opinions.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Christian D. Malesic, may not be someone you know, but this is a professional with a *masters degree in Business * (something you and most PT members don't have), who teaches contractors. The journalists opinions are based on consumer opinions. Not the opinions of any form of the home improvement industry therefore, his opinions have no merit.


He used to work for Berks County Home Builders Association, currently works for PA Veterinary Medical Association. He no longer "teaches" contractors. He is , more than anything, a lobbyist. A large portion of both organizations work involves lobbying. There is plenty online regarding his work history, and none of it involves the construction trades or private business. It would appear he is an academic. His MBA is from Shippensburg University, a State University that I am very familiar with. While an OK school, it's certainly not Warton at Penn. But he does have a video on Youtube, so there is that. My kids have dozens of videos on the platform. He does have a degree in electrical engineering from Lehigh University, which is much more impressive than anything that could be obtained at Shippensburg. I'm guessing there is much more money to be made in the lobbying biz.

Obviously you choose to ignore the Chicago Tribune article, that's up to you. it is a rational representation of the opinion many have of the practice of charging excessive upfront fees in the home improvement industry. Many consumers have been taken advantage of over the years where this practice is legal. And is my opinion the practice would cost most businesses customers. I'm glad it's working for you.

You shouldn't assume ones educational background using chosen occupation as a barometer. I know many on PT have college degrees, myself included. Not in business, but I took enough business courses as electives to receive a minor. And you never know, there could be a MBA lurking amongst the ranks of PT. My degree is in biology, not that it matters. While education is a great thing, it's certainly no guarantee of success in the business world nor an indicator of ones business acumen.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> If you are looking to run a business successfully, I suggest you don't rely on a journalists opinions.


I already ran a successful business...I'm done.:smile:

And I never relied on a newspaper article or a Youtube video to do it.:biggrin:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> He used to work for Berks County Home Builders Association, ...


*Use.......:vs_blush: smh

:biggrin:


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Lots of head shaking going on in this thread. Probably by a lot of people for a variety of reasons.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Lots of head shaking going on in this thread. Probably by a lot of people for a variety of reasons.


It's always good to know when to step away.:wink:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> And I never relied on a newspaper article or a Youtube video to do it.:biggrin:


Apparently you do rely on newspaper articles or you wouldn't have sensationalized it and posted it here, with total glorification. 

I've been running my own biz for 30 years, and from day one, my payment schedule has been 1/3 to start - 1/3 at a mid point - and 1/3 upon completion. 
5 years ago, I changed it to 50% to start and 50% upon completion and my customer never question it. And I earn over 100k annually. :wink:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Apparently you do rely on newspaper articles or you wouldn't have sensationalized it and posted it here, with total glorification.
> 
> I've been running my own biz for 30 years, and from day one, my payment schedule has been 1/3 to start - 1/3 at a mid point - and 1/3 upon completion.
> 5 years ago, I changed it to 50% to start and 50% upon completion and my customer never question it. And I earn over 100k annually. :wink:



I think you're the one who sensationalized it.

Keep at it. Eventually you'll be able to increase your income.

See post # 83


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I spent a little time researching Mr. Malesic online. It appears he is currently heading up the PA Veterinary Medical Association. Educated....he has four college degrees. I don't see anywhere in his resume where he has ever owned or operated a _business_ in the private sector. He appears to have made a career out of heading organizations where profit is immaterial to the entity's continued operation. Huh???:vs_worry:


*Nice, an attempt to discredit the man. And this is what I've found regarding Mr. Malesic* :wink:

Executive Director
Company NamePaVMA Full-time
Dates EmployedNov 2018 – Present
Employment Duration1 yr 2 mos
LocationHummelstown, PA
The Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical Association (PVMA) is the only statewide professional membership association dedicated to exclusively to the profession of veterinary medicine and the interests of the veterinary team. Established in 1883, PVMA membership has grown from its original 22 founding members to more than 3,500

Today, we represent every member of the veterinary team. The Pennsylvania Veterinary Medical Association is dedicated to ensuring the vitality of the veterinary profession by promoting excellence in veterinary medicine, advancing animal health and welfare, and protecting and enhancing human health.

CEO
Company NameThe Malesic Group, Inc.
Dates EmployedJan 2004 – Present
Employment Duration16 yrs
LocationHarrisburg, Pennsylvania Area
The Malesic Group, Inc. provides quality, clean, affordable homes to lower-income working-families.

The CEO oversees all aspects of the rental property holding corporation that owns, manages, and serves as the landlord for 31, mostly residential, units valued at $1.8M. Duties include: Orchestrating purchases and sales of real property with over 40 buy/sell transactions. Embedding best-practices in construction, tenant acquisition, customer relations, ongoing maintenance, and financial management to turn new acquisitions cash flow positive in less than two years.

Melbourne Regional Chamber of East Central Florida
Total Duration2 yrs 6 mos
TitleOperational Consultant
Dates EmployedJul 2017 – Jan 2018
Employment Duration7 mos
LocationMelbourne, Florida Area
TitlePresident / CEO
Dates EmployedAug 2015 – Jul 2017
Employment Duration2 yrs
LocationMelbourne, Florida Area
The Melbourne Regional Chamber is the largest business organization in the East Central Florida region, offering the opportunity for networking, education, marketing, and government advocacy, and community involvement. The Melbourne Regional Chamber is accredited by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce as a 5 Star Chamber, heralding it as in the Top 1% of all Chambers of Commerce nationwide. 97.17% of all Chambers in the United States are not accredited at all; thus, a 5 Star Chamber is a Chamber with A++ grades across the board. ​

The President/CEO is the Chief Executive & lead visionary of the association with 1,255 Member companies, $1M budget and 12 employees. Duties include: Directing 125 annual events, developing & overseeing budgets and financial controls, facilitating communication between internal leaders, and being a spokesman for the business community with media & the public. Coordinating hurricane preparedness, evacuation, & re-opening. Property Manager for 2 tenants.

Executive Officer
Company NameHome Builders Association of Berks County (HBA)
Dates EmployedFeb 2012 – Aug 2015
Employment Duration3 yrs 7 mos
LocationBerks County, PA, USA
HBA of Berks County is the voice of the housing industry and represents members involved in all aspects of home building and remodeling. Standing together, our members are a powerful force for keeping housing a priority. HBA of Berks County is a local level association affiliated with the Pennsylvania Builders Association (PBA) and National Association of Home Builders (NAHB).

The Executive Officer manages staff, membership, and resources with a mission to protect and promote Pennsylvania's economic well-being and quality of life through support of legislative, educational, and economic initiatives in the housing arena. Duties include: vision, leadership initiatives, event planning, legislative issues & testimony, government relations, public relations, budgeting, marketing, and all other aspects of executive administration.

Board of Directors
Company NameIndependent Electrical Contractors (IEC)
Dates EmployedJan 2011 – Feb 2012
Employment Duration1 yr 2 mos
LocationAlexandria, VA
IEC is the national trade association for merit shop electrical and systems contractors representing more than 3,300 members with 50 chapters nationwide. IEC National aggressively works with the industry to establish a competitive environment for the merit shop - a philosophy that promotes the concept of free enterprise, open competition, and economic opportunity for all.

Christian promoted the merit-shop philosophy while serving as one of two North East Regional Directors on the National Board of Directors of 16 (12 Regional Directors, 3 Officers, 1 Director-at-Large). The North East Region roughly equates to the 13 original colonies.

President / CEO
Company NameCM Squared, Inc.
Dates EmployedJan 1998 – Feb 2012
Employment Duration14 yrs 2 mos
LocationHarrisburg, PA
A successful business is founded on more than ambition, dedication, and principles. CM Squared, Inc. was founded to pursue both the interest and talents of its principals. Christian D. Malesic, MBA, IOM, CGR, CAPS and Craig G. Malesic, EIT, PMP, LC both acquired an interest in things electrical at a very early age. Their initial knowledge was gleaned from their father, W. Robert Malesic, who was a journeyman electrician for 36 years and who continues to be their confidant.

Although their paths diverged as young men, due primarily to their college years and Christian's six years in the Air Force, they remained in close touch. The brothers had talked in a dreamlike fashion since childhood about forming a company that would meld their artistic creativity with their technical savvy. By 1995 the dream began to take the shape of a formal business plan wherein Christian could use his managerial and business ability coupled with Craig's creativity and lighting expertise to benefit a niche heretofore unfulfilled.

CM Squared, Inc. was established in January of 1998 and incorporated in the State of Pennsylvania in May of 1998. The company name represents the first and last initials of the two brothers followed by the mathematical term which literally means "to multiply by itself."

President, Board of Directors
Company NameCentral Dauphin School District
Dates EmployedJul 2007 – Dec 2011
Employment Duration4 yrs 6 mos
LocationDauphin County, PA
School Directors, although locally elected, are really state officials. Each of the 500 School Boards in PA consists of nine Directors who serve four-year terms of office without pay. Each Board elects from among its own a President to present a vision for the district, lead the Board, establish functional public & executive session meeting agendas, and officially chair each of its meetings, Duties, include, but are not limited to:

• Budgeting: Central Dauphin budgets $155M annually with 21 buildings, 19 schools of grades K-12, 11,000 students, and over 1,100 employees using a Five Year Budget Model that is continuously reworked monthly until publicly adopted annually.

• Taxing: Establishment of rates and oversight of collection of the Earned Income Tax (EIT), Property Tax, and Property Transfer Tax.

• Economic Development: Tax Incremental Financing (TIF) design & management to attract business & industry.

• Financing: At any moment, the district has up to $50M in cash or near-cash plus $250M in public financed bonds. Directors control the investment and/or reinvestment of funds and bonds with the advice of counsel.
• Planning: Directors plan calendars, agendas, public meetings, events, legislative activities, curriculum, professional development, improvement plans, litigation and defense, public programs, and cross-government interaction.

• Setting Policy: The Board is the governing authority for all activities on school grounds, or related to students, teachers, or administrators.

• Hiring: Every position granted in the school district is done through Board action. Directors play less of role in selection for lower level positions and more of a role for higher positions.

• Evaluating Results: Every Director is responsible to the citizens of the district and are expected to ensure an exceptional education and the lowest possible cost.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

^^^^SMH^^^^:laugh:

He's a lobbyist.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> ^^^^SMH^^^^:laugh:
> 
> He's a lobbyist.


And I am willing to bet that you're a liberal. :vs_sob:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> And I am willing to bet that you're a liberal. :vs_sob:


You could not be further from the truth. Life long Republican who left when all the Tea Party stuff started. Since then I consider myself a Libertarian with right leaning tendencies. I remain registered as a Republican ....in order to vote in the primaries.

Not that it matters, to me anyhow. I have good friends from one end of the political spectrum to the other.

Better keep things fairly apolitical...the Mods are quick to shut things down when politics get involved.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> You could not be further from the truth. Life long Republican who left when all the Tea Party stuff started. Since then I consider myself a Libertarian with right leaning tendencies. I remain registered as a Republican ....in order to vote in the primaries.
> 
> Not that it matters, to me anyhow. I have good friends from one end of the political spectrum to the other.
> 
> Better keep things fairly apolitical...the Mods are quick to shut things down when politics get involved.


We won’t shut them down but will move them to the Outhouse sub-forum.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Deja vu of a darker time in the land of PT when the Shire was threatened by the malevolence of Mordor.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You my friend are a painter. Not a businessman. I get 50% at start on every job (it's the industry standard). It's the power of the business card! :vs_cool: And my wealthy clients don't question it - ever. Guess it's because I am not the toothless painter that reeks of Marlboro. :biggrin:
> 
> Here's a video for you. Executive Officer *Christian D. Malesic, Master of Business Administration* :wink:
> 
> WATCH VIDEO: https://youtu.be/R3buk63O2GE




It is NOT the industry standard...see my previous reply. Not sure what state u live in but in most thats against the law


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> You my friend are a painter. Not a businessman. I get 50% at start on every job (it's the industry standard). It's the power of the business card! :vs_cool: And my wealthy clients don't question it - ever. Guess it's because I am not the toothless painter that reeks of Marlboro. :biggrin:
> 
> Here's a video for you. Executive Officer *Christian D. Malesic, Master of Business Administration* :wink:
> 
> WATCH VIDEO: https://youtu.be/R3buk63O2GE




It is NOT the industry standard...see my previous reply. Not sure what state u live in but in most thats against the law.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

PPD said:


> It is NOT the industry standard...see my previous reply. Not sure what state u live in but in most thats against the law.


In the video he states: *"in most states"* you can request 50% up front if the job is under 5k. If the job is at 5K and a penny (the law kicks in), his words, then it's acceptable to receive - 1/3 to start, 1/3 at a mid point, and 1/3 upon completion. Again, in most states! Did you even watch the video?

If this is against the law, please show me the law for each of the 50 states! 
Sorry if I don't take your word for it.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

jennifertemple said:


> The first job I did in Toronto, 40 years ago, I was 3 weeks in on a 1 week job and no contract. I screamed at the HO on my last day "Mrs.HO, Go away and let me work!! Money or no, I am finished here tonight!" She said "your very upset with me?!" Replied "Lady, I am on my third week of a 1 week job with no signed contract and losing money by the minute! Now Go Away!" I finished, got paid and postponed all future jobs while I waited for the printers to deliver my contract forms. After that I swore, even my grandmother would have to sign. I never had to have a contract in my home/starting town but the big city was a whole new game!




My first experience left a horrible taste in my mouth after I got burned BAD by a “friend”. hired the best contract lawyer I could afford immediately afterwards & had him tell me exactly what I needed to put in mine to protect myself.

I won’t even schedule a job now without that sheet having a signature. If nothing else it serves the same purpose deposits & fee’s that hotels, car rentals companies, etc ...to discourage them from being dishonest.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> That's one I just took note of...balance due on day of completion. While that is nice, to demand same day payment is pushing the envelope. It may be within reason on a smaller job, but many people will want a few days to inspect the work on larger jobs. I know I would. If a contractor came to me with a contract like the one outlined in this thread, I'd kick him out of my house. Too many red flags.
> 
> 2% discount/10 day Net/30
> 
> And the 2% doesn't cost the company a dime because it's already figured in the bid...it makes you money if the customer chooses to not take advantage




I also consider it a MAJOR red flag if a contractor demands immediate payment after completion...to me it feels that they don’t have confidence in their work, or more likely, want the work inspected for one reason or another. 

Always makes me to inspect things way more carefully or have another contractor do so when its out of my knowledge wheel. Anytime I’m pressured for payment & its outside the norm I get suspicious.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

HC-Raad said:


> And I am willing to bet that you're a liberal. :vs_sob:



If this thread takes a political course, the next political contributor will be viewing this Efight thread through the ropes from the back row. Just sayin'. No warnings.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

*Home Improvement Consumer Protection Act*

*ATTACHED: Home Improvement Consumer
Protection Act (Pennsylvania)* The law - Read it!

*Page 13*
(10) (i) Except as provided under subparagraph (ii), for a home improvement contract in which the total price is more than $5,000, receive a deposit in excess of:
(A) one-third of the home improvement contract price; or
(B) one-third of the home improvement contract price plus the cost of special order materials that will be ordered, as designated in the written contract.


PPD, I understand you are in California. Your laws are stickered there than most of the US. So I have produced the law for Pennsylvania. What do you got for me?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I never felt comfortable paying anything up front to a complete stranger for services they've yet to provide. It seems unfair to place the burden of trust on the consumer. Especially when you have contractor material accounts that offer the ability to pay the supplier at a later date. And why should the consumer cover the cost of labor up front? 

I could understand larger jobs with longer time frames for completion requiring installments for labor, and even to secure large amounts of material up front. However, is it reasonable to ask a homeowner for a down payment on a $3,000.00 job that may only last three days? I mean, I'm just a little suspicious of a contractor that doesn't have an account that covers their labor for a few days.

The whole thing just seems riskier to the consumer.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I never felt comfortable paying anything up front to a complete stranger for services they've yet to provide. It seems unfair to place the burden of trust on the consumer. Especially when you have contractor material accounts that offer the ability to pay the supplier at a later date. And why should the consumer cover the cost of labor up front?


I paid most contractors material up front. Show me a plumber or a roofer that does not ask that. They pay material cost on signing the contract and if they back out after I simply leave them the materials and a materials invoice marked paid in full. There is no other consequence. Once a contract is signed I get the materials the same day or if evening, the following morning. I will not buy and store materials I don't need and am not likely to use.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I never felt comfortable paying anything up front to a complete stranger for services they've yet to provide. It seems unfair to place the burden of trust on the consumer. Especially when you have contractor material accounts that offer the ability to pay the supplier at a later date. And why should the consumer cover the cost of labor up front?
> 
> I could understand larger jobs with longer time frames for completion requiring installments for labor, and even to secure large amounts of material up front. However, is it reasonable to ask a homeowner for a down payment on a $3,000.00 job that may only last three days? I mean, I'm just a little suspicious of a contractor that doesn't have an account that covers their labor for a few days.
> 
> The whole thing just seems riskier to the consumer.


I believe that most here feel that a reasonable down payment is just plain good business for the reasons that have already been mentioned. I think the issue being beat to death at this point is the definition of “reasonable”.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

CApainter said:


> I never felt comfortable paying anything up front to a complete stranger for services they've yet to provide. It seems unfair to place the burden of trust on the consumer. Especially when you have contractor material accounts that offer the ability to pay the supplier at a later date. And why should the consumer cover the cost of labor up front?
> 
> I could understand larger jobs with longer time frames for completion requiring installments for labor, and even to secure large amounts of material up front. However, is it reasonable to ask a homeowner for a down payment on a $3,000.00 job that may only last three days? I mean, I'm just a little suspicious of a contractor that doesn't have an account that covers their labor for a few days.
> 
> The whole thing just seems riskier to the consumer.


Even for smaller jobs I could see a business charging a small percentage to be scheduled, say 10% or a couple hundred dollars. I never did, but I could understanding businesses doing so. I never even liked looking at jobs under $5,000, but did so to gain or retain customers. And I always liked keeping somewhat of a residential repaint base in case new construction slowed. Specializing too much can hurt if that market slows down. We were usually busy enough that it wouldn't bother me if those jobs did cancel, but they seldom did. Probably because I treated them with respect.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

RH said:


> I believe that most here feel that a reasonable down payment is just plain good business for the reasons that have already been mentioned. I think the issue being beat to death at this point is the definition of “reasonable”.


There is the law, and then there is "I believe, I feel, I think, in my opinion". 
And again, it's your business and you can do what you feel is best for you. 

For me, I get as much as the law will permit. :vs_cool:

Hey Lightning, here's the law in PA. 
Looks like Mr Malesic is spot on! What do you think of me know? :biggrin:

Page 13
(10) (i) Except as provided under subparagraph (ii), for a home improvement contract in which the total price is more than $5,000, receive a deposit in excess of:
(A) one-third of the home improvement contract price; or
(B) one-third of the home improvement contract price plus the cost of special order materials that will be ordered, as designated in the written contract.

Carry on fellows.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

CApainter said:


> *I never felt comfortable paying anything up front to a complete stranger for services they've yet to provide.*


Then do the work yourself! No one is forcing you to hire a contractor. :wink:

When I go on Vacation, I have to pay in full for my trip. I don't like that either.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

HC-Raad said:


> There is the law, and then there is "I believe, I feel, I think, in my opinion".
> And again, it's your business and you can do what you feel is best for you.
> 
> For me, I get as much as the law will permit. :vs_cool:
> ...



What does $5k get you in WY? Around here you get 1 coat from college pro on a 2500sqft condo, then you get to pay someone double to come fix it.



My mother once paid 1/2 up front to get a new fence gate built. The contractor took the money and put it towards another job and when it came time to start her job he had the balls to ask her for MORE money for materials. When I inspected it he had in fact use recycled materials from the old rotten fence and didn't even bother to stain it to match the existing.


Taking 1/2 up front doesn't make you a business[person] any more than having a youtube channel makes you a financial expert.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Hey Lightning, here's the law in PA.
> Looks like Mr Malesic is spot on! What do you think of me know? :biggrin:


I really couldn't tell you, I'd be banned from PT for life!:biggrin:


I didn't notice until now, but I did type $1,000 rather than $5,000 regarding my post on PA law. It happens.....just like you keyed in know instead of now. 

All hail Malesic!!! All hail mammon!!! All hail Malesic!!!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I’ve worked with a couple of firms that would often ignore payment schedules and issue payment in full, up front, for some pretty hefty numbers, sometimes 6 months in advance of initiating the work. 

One of the firms cut me a $36K deposit check on a $72K “estimate” in 2004, without a signed contract, where payment terms had not been yet been established. I started the project and worked on it 8 days with a helper only to have the project stopped, the homeowner having breached the contract with the primary contractor/interior design firm. After the prime contract had been breached, I was told by the designers to submit an invoice for the remaining $36K, and that I’d be paid in full for non-completed work, pending arbitration.

Although it would have served as a nice windfall, accepting the additional $36K for non performance would have went against my grain, the unused portion of the initial deposit covering any opportunity costs plus the 8 days. After the HO liquidated the property I had received a call from the new owner’s rep wanting to hire me to resume, in essence getting paid double for the first 50% of the work.

Although initiating the project on the first go without a signed contract worked to my benefit, it could have easily taken a different turn. Since then, I’ve always required a signed contract before starting a project. 

Although not a standard practice, this is one example where a 50% deposit does serve as a benefit to the contractor. I find that when working with designers, 50% deposits are often the commonly accepted standard, given limits on the total contract price.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> Sorry if I don't take your word for it.




My bad-I’ll make a youtube video next tome instead of text .

Just because states don’t legally limit the amount a contractor can request as advance payment doesn’t mean its standard business practice....

9 states limits DP amounts for residential:
•Arizona
•Indiana
•Nevada (pools only) 

•California: 
Limit of 10% or $1k, whichever is Less. No exceptions except in case of P&P Bond. No limits on commercial. The only legal way I’ve heard of to get around this is to contract stage based payments with the 1st stage, start & completion date being materials ordering even if the start date (stage 2) is further out. I’ve been advised this is a grey area & if an legal issues come up the state will see this for what it is & very likely not look favorably on the work-around designed to protect consumers. 

•Maine: 
Limit DP of 1/3 EXCEPT if HO & contractor mutually agree to a different amount.

•Maryland: 
Limited to 1/3 the contract price. 

•Massachusetts & Pennsylvania: 
Limit to 1/3 contract price w/ an exception when supplies must be special ordered. 

•Tennessee: 
Limited to 1/3 contract price EXCEPT when there is a P&P bond, HO offers to make a larger payment (must be volunteered by HO), or the contract specifically states HO can withhold all payment until completion


As for Retainage laws for residential/private- they vary wildly by state by almost all have SOME kind of law that protects the HO from paying too much before completion.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

You named 8 states but still didn't show me the law. I want to see a legal document and its source, not a copy and paste. I said most states, if the price is under 5k you can ask for 50%. Not all states, most states. There are 42 more to go. Again, under 5k. Jobs over 5k the law limits to 1/3, as you have stated. And those 8 states are compliant to what was said by the business master. Please, make a YT video.

Go back and watch his video. And listen harder. He said this applies to the best contractors across the us.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

“... Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the storm rage on
The cold never bothered me anyway
Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
Let it go (go, go, go go, go go, go go, go, go, go go)
Let it go
Let it go
Let it go...”


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

That way a very good post RH. Thumbs up!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Something out of the Twilight Zone


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Well, this thread has gone beyond beaten to death, and I really can't see posting in it again. That's not a promise, because lord knows what could pop up. I may not be able to avoid the temptation. But I'm going to try not to.

While I may not agree with your approach ,HC, don't take anything I have said personal. It was said without malice (well, mostly:biggrin. I've enjoyed the debate.

Keep on posting, and maybe someday I'll agree with something you post.

I hope you fare well.:smile:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> *While I may not agree with your approach* ,HC, don't take anything I have said personal. It was said without malice (well, mostly:biggrin. I've enjoyed the debate.


My approach? I have no idea what that even means. My business practices?
If that's the case, that would be none of your concern. Worry about you! :wink: 

And what was the debate about - whether or not a news Journalist (who probably got screwed by a contractor) had impact on you, or whether the business major had any credibility? 

I still don't know what you would recommend to an up and coming contractor regarding how much of a deposit he/she should request. 

Also, is this debate a morally debate regarding deposits or a practical business approach? You spent more time refuting my input to this debate instead of offering your opinion to the OP (original post). 

Anyway, I disagree with everything you wrote too. Whatever your point may have been, it got lost in the shuffle. You said a lot, but said very little. 

Have a good one - champ! :biggrin:


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> *One of the firms cut me a $36K deposit check on a $72K “estimate” in 2004, without a signed contract, where payment terms had not been yet been established. * I started the project and worked on it 8 days with a helper only to have the project stopped, the homeowner having breached the contract with the primary contractor/interior design firm. After the prime contract had been breached, I was told by the designers to submit an invoice for the remaining $36K, and that I’d be paid in full for non-completed work, pending arbitration.


That is hard to believe. You started a 72k job with no contract? That is pretty irresponsible lion. And how many business degrees do you have? :surprise:
And it wasn't a 10 man crew you had? Just you and a helper doing a 72k job? 
I don't know, no business cards, no contracts? SMH

From experience, it's risky to do a 1k job without a contract, let alone a 72k job. And that's coming from the rooster Mr Lion :vs_smirk:


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Run, Forrest, Run....
Stick a fork in me,
I'm done. 
:vs_lol:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

HC-Raad said:


> ...
> And it wasn't a 10 man crew you had? Just you and a helper doing a 72k job?



Hard to believe there is more work than <$5k repaints huh? The 100k job I mentioned earlier is just one guy and his helper that he 1099's. And that's just phase 1 of that project.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

HC-Raad said:


> That is hard to believe. You started a 72k job with no contract? That is pretty irresponsible lion. And how many business degrees do you have? :surprise:
> And it wasn't a 10 man crew you had? Just you and a helper doing a 72k job?
> I don't know, no business cards, no contracts? SMH
> 
> From experience, it's risky to do a 1k job without a contract, let alone a 72k job. And that's coming from the rooster Mr Lion :vs_smirk:


Lack of a signature doesn’t invalidate a contract or render it unenforceable in many jurisdictions. Implied-in-fact contracts are valid and enforceable. It all depends on the state’s business law section. Some states require signed contracts.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Hard to believe there is more work than <$5k repaints huh? The 100k job I mentioned earlier is just one guy and his helper that he 1099's. And that's just phase 1 of that project.


When I staff a large project, my benchmark is one employee per every $50K. There are however other variables such as the duration of the project.


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## HC-Raad (Jan 26, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> And if your business doesn't have credit enough to cover materials for a month or two, again projecting a pretty shaky image.


Actually, i have better credit than most. I've attached my credit score and other info. I have an 815 FICO score with transunion and $203,000 total credit limit. And that is only credit cards. Top that!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I think this thread has gone on long enough. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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