# BEHR Paint Problems with Photos



## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

I have been on the DIY and Contractor website trying to get some feeback about a paint problem I have. Please look at these pictures and let me know what you think.

Picture one is of a ceiling that is flashing shiny flat shiny flat. This entire three story custom home looks like this through out. It was primed with BEHR Premium Select PVA primer and the primer was tinted to the wall color SW Camel Back. It sat for one day and was then painted with BEHR K-200 (Contractor line of paint, a little flatter than K-100.) The resulting finish dried like this. When wet it looks fine and then starts drying in some areas and not others. Where it dried first it is flat and fine, where it dried later it is shinier.

We have done some testing: Sprayed on the ceiling in the picture:
Primer K-10
BEHR K-200
SW 
Prep Coat
BEHR K-200
SW 
BEHR K-200

Nothing changed it.

On the second floor ceiling we:
Primer
BEHR
BEHR and backroll
BEHR and backroll
BEHR and no backroll
KILZ 2
SW
BEHR

Same results, even through the KILZ

This house was sprayed by myself and my lead spray man. We used two different rigs and have tested with various methods, tips, and preasures. Both of us keep coming up with the same result.

Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to painting. I have over 25 years of experience, 15 of which I owned my own Paint Company. This is not the result of my spray equipment, technique, or uneven drywall. The shadows you see in the pictures are not shadows they are the flat areas that dried first. The walls are blotchy and with shiny to flat stripes that go from top to bottom. 

I have more pictures and some short video clips that show this alot better.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

BEHR is your problem, search this site, do a google on it. Behr is sh*t paint.


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

Behr and Kilz...? If you would have bought a quality paint, I think you would have saved a couple days man hours and actually saved money! Painting crap on top of crap equals crap!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Its hard to tell from the pictures, but as I sight that ceiling down, I think I see the drywall joints every four feet...makes me wonder if the mud joints were sanded flush enough and if the primer did a proper seal job. Those big open ceilings showered by natural light are difficult to do perfectly even with the best of products. You mentioned spraying, did you backroll? If not, sometimes that contributes to a cloudy appearance.


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## HomeGuardPaints (Jan 17, 2008)

Your problem is........










Unfortunately I shop there too, sometimes, but not for paint.

Well once for the Behr Premium Plus ultra.--- it was actually good , but their interior paint sucks


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

Understand that I am a Masco owned company and that my paint department is using BEHR becasue of that fact. We have our own tint machine and shakers and our paint comes directly from BEHR. 

I understand that there have been issues with BEHR. I have never had this problem before with any other type of paint. I have read all about it on this website and being that so many of you have had issues with it I was wondering if anyone has had this particular problem and if so what you did to fix it.

Yes, we tried backrolling. It made it worse and the contractor made us stop because it is a smooth mexican hand trowl texture and the nap of the roller leaves a slight texture that was taking away from the effect that they are trying to achieve, as are the numerous coats of paint we are applying.

I have worked behind this drywaller for years with few problems and the walls are not uneven. What you can't see in the pictures is that what appears to be the jointsare lines range from 8 to 12 inches apart and vary with no real pattern and that a straight edge has been applied to the walls to make sure that's not the problem.

Also this does not tell me why it is blotchy, even when back rolled. 

If you have had this problem, what did you do to fix it?


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## Pete's Painting (Mar 5, 2008)

Your problem will not go away unless you change paint. You could put 10 layers of Behr paint on there and it will still look like it needs another coat. 
The ceiling paint looks like it has a shine to it. If you absolutely need to use Behr, use their flat paints.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I like Pete's idea of the flat paint to hide the highs and lows.

Is it possible to retexture ceiling?

Has anyone heard of applying a flat paint prior to texturing, as a means of controlling equal absorption of texture?


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Its hard to tell from the pictures, but as I sight that ceiling down, I think I see the drywall joints every four feet...makes me wonder if the mud joints were sanded flush enough and if the primer did a proper seal job. Those big open ceilings showered by natural light are difficult to do perfectly even with the best of products. You mentioned spraying, did you backroll? If not, sometimes that contributes to a cloudy appearance.


Sure looks like joints to me also. Behr paint doesn't help matters.

One of the most critical surfaces to paint are interior drywall smooth/slick walls and ceilings--and the higher sheens will show every imperfection.

At this point, one option to try is buy regular flat paint--the cheap heavy body stuff (even Home Depot's Glidden Speedcoat is good for this:whistling2: ), and with no thinning, running a .017 or .019 tip, spray a heavy coat as a primer. Then see if you can convince the homeowner to use an eggshell or flat finish coat.


Casey


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I like Pete's idea of the flat paint to hide the highs and lows.
> 
> Is it possible to retexture ceiling?
> 
> Has anyone heard of applying a flat paint prior to texturing, as a means of controlling equal absorption of texture?


 
That's exactly why I recommend flat paint. Another trick I learned (from a drywaller) is to throw a gallon of drywall mud into a 5 ga of flat paint.

Good friend of mine is a drywall contractor who specializes in slickwall--I mean REALLY slick, slickwall.

Although I don't do much residential/commercial stuff these days, sometimes he hires me on big jobs to use my big airless. We dump 3/4 box of mud into about 2 1/2 gallons of cheap, heavy bodied flat paint, and spray it on. Then he touches up any small imperfections and lightly sands the walls--makes for a very smooth surface with equal absorption throughout.



Casey


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

api11296 said:


> I have worked behind this drywaller for years with few problems and the walls are not uneven. What you can't see in the pictures is that what appears to be the jointsare lines range from 8 to 12 inches apart and vary with no real pattern and that a straight edge has been applied to the walls to make sure that's not the problem.


 
Are you by perchance getting spray tails?


Casey


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I have always been under the impression that flat on ceilings is the best practice, and thought it was pretty standard procedure for pro painters. Is that a safe assumption?


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I have always been under the impression that flat on ceilings is the best practice, and thought it was pretty standard procedure for pro painters. Is that a safe assumption?


Thats how I feel. Was doing a house in Maine last summer and the owner had another painter do the ceilings in CA. Matte. 3 coats...looked like crap. His work looked good and I thought he left out primer (new const.) so I scuff sanded, cleaned and put another coat. Looked like crap. These were not white but colors (1/4 tints) so I matched it in flat, put it on....it was a beautiful thing! Owner happy. Part of this issue was Lots of windows and on the ocean. Lots of light hitting the ceiling. 
I go to egg or satin in a bath.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Let's try some logic:

IF you have used Behr paint AND not have had this problem before, then there is another variable.

DID the drywall people change mud, use uncontaminated water, or hang drywall that had not been exposed to elements or chemicals lying in the back of the truck?

DID you clean your spray rig thoroughly BEFORE you sprayed the current coats?

DID you know that Behr states you need to "spot prime" patched areas first, followed by a complete primer coat, (only primer I know that needs to be primed BEFORE primeing) in essence applying two coats of primer BEFORE you apply you first finnish coat?

DID you know that the primer should NOT have more than 3 oz of colorant added to it?

http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/products_detail?prodGroupId=30&catName=Primers&catId=20


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The quality of natural light on ceilings, especially large ceilings showered by lots of glass, is pretty amazing. Whenever we do the same color and finish on ceilings and walls (which is rare), it is quite an optical illusion how the ceiling looks so different from the walls. 

On ceilings painters need all the help we can get visually and in terms of hide, so flat gets the call 95% of the time with us. As Roadog mentions, there are certain bathroom applications that call for a sheen, and they are usually small enough spaces with not much natural light so they look ok.


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## AALory (Mar 6, 2008)

Flat for ceilings is standard. This is especially true for open, expansive ceilings like those in the pictures. That much uninterupted drywall is bound to have a number of subtle imperfections.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bikerboy raises an excellent point. There are some variables involved, and to me the largest one is the "smooth mexican hand troweled texture" that was described. We do just enough hand troweled plaster applications in decorative finishes to know that this application creates some rather unpredicatable rates of absorption in primers, topcoats, sealers, glazes or whatever. We have had dead flat varnish get weirded out over hand troweled/polished surfaces. 

In order to solve this mystery, we would need more information about what the product was that they troweled on, how much cure time it was given, how smooth it was, and how much variation in its texture. However, the paint product choice in this case is certainly questionable and, even in the best of scenarios, would not be the ideal choice.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

I would spray and backroll with an 18" roller and pro mar 400 flat. If it still does that I think you have to look at the plaster/texture. Tell the GC that backrolling is necessary unless he wants it to look like it does.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

Okay,

The walls through out are painted with FLAT BEHR K-200 Contactor series, it is flatter than their shiner K-100 Flat. 

Yes, I know all about the colorant, how much you can add ect. and followed this when tinting the primer. It does not take as much colorant to tint the primer as it does to tint their Pastel Base Paint.

Prep Coat is drywall mud mixed with paint and is basically what was suggested by adding drywall mud to paint, except it comes pre made from a manufature. I did spray the ceiling you see in this picture with Prep Coat and it did not fix the problem.

My rigs are cleaned after every single paint is put through them. First the paint is removed and the machine rinsed with one full five of water and then a new full five of water or until CLEAR CLEAN WATER FLOWS CONSTANTLY THROUGH THE GUN.

The hand texture is pure dry wall mud, layers and layers of drywall mud over the sheetrock. The water used to mix the mud is drinkable water and runs from the same water supply used for surrounding occupied houses.

The drywall was delivered to the job from the warehouse and stored inside just prior to hanging. It was uncontaminated and clean when hung.

There were no patches in this house as it had been completely had trowled to achieve a Spanish style texture. I throughly examined the drywall prior to priming myself. 

The walls are pretty smooth with occasional indentations or dips. 4 sq. ft. may have three of these indentations. They run about 3 to four inches long and 1/2 inch to 1 inch wide. The texture effect is amazing looking and is exactly like the Contractors house I painted 3 years prior behind the same drywaller with Sherwin Williams Paint.

The drywall sat for two weeks finished prior to Priming.

We used Sherwin Williams Southwest Builders Custom Flat on this ceiling and it still looked like this. 

The mud is manufactured by MAGNIUM and a representative from Magnium took a box of mud off the job to be tested.

SO TO CLAIRIFY:
DAY 1
Primed with BEHR PVA Primer tinted as close to the wall color as possible with out using too much tint.
Day 2
Painted with BEHR's Flattest Paint all ceilings and walls with the exception of Wet Area's which are eggshell.
Day 3
Came in with SW Southwest Builders Custom FLat (Sherwin WIlliams Flattest Paint)
Day 4
Prep Coated the entire ceiling and one short wall.
Day 5 
Re-painted over Prep Coat after sanding the walls.
Day 6 
Sunday - took the day off!
Day 7 
Re-painted a different ceiling with KILZ
Day 8 
Painted over KILZ with Sherwin Williams Promar 400 FLAT and BACK ROLLED
Day 9
Back to origional ceiling and new ceiling re-painted all with BEHR
Day 10 
Contractor wanted his house back, so we left it like it sits and it looks like CRAP. Will go back after all trades and try to fix it. We will be brushing and rolling. So if you can think of something we have not tried, please advise.

We were in close contact with BEHR during our testing phases and we did everything they suggested as far as tips, backrolling, preasures, even listened to them telling us how to spray.

Their suggestions did not fix the problem and they are testing the paint and the primer now. 

It is good to know that by your suggestions, most of which I have already tried, at least I did the right things so far. There are cabinets, beams, bath, tile, floors, and rock going into this house right now. I seriously doubt that the contractor is going to allow new drywall to be put up against all of these things. He is thinking that once he gets the beams on the ceilings and all of his dark wood in that it will "HIDE" this problem. 

I am going to need a painting solution and not a dry wall solution.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I hope that I am sensing your frustration with the situation, and not with those of us who are trying to help you.

The obvious painting solution would be to pole sand the ceiling to lose the roller texture you have introduced and repaint with, say, Sherwin Williams or Ben Moore flat. Suggest that they get some window treatments to tone down the shower of natural light on the ceiling.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Maybe a few more pictures would help


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

*Feel my pain?*

Abosultely I am frustrated with the situation.

I just ruined a 3+ MILLION dollar 8000+ Sq. Ft. home. I have better pictures and will post them in a new thread when I can access them from home. 

The two I posted earlier are from a cell phone camera and just aren't good enough. 

I was out there this morning and it looks just like CRAP.

This problem is in every room. It is happening on long walls, short walls, all ceilings, and even in the smallest rooms. 

I'll concider myself lucky to get out of this with out a lawsuit. 

I apologize if my frustration offends anyone.

I wish I did not have to explaint to fellow paint professionals that I know how to paint and that this problem is not something I did or did not do. But at the chance of looking like a novice I am putting my problem out there in the hopes of a solution.

I have done everything BEHR has told me to do, even when it is the opposite of what they told me to do in the first place. I am trying to await their testing patiently and I pray that they can come up with a solution that works for all of those involved.

I have yet to get it through to them just how bad this house is. My sales rep knows because he seen it the first day. But they guy running the testing can't open the videos I have that are the best way of seeing these problems with out actually walking the house. Although the videos are great, the true crime of the actaul finish is best precieved through the naked eye. 

When you walk this house you almost get dizzy as your eys jump from one shiny spot to the next. Remember when we didn't have cable and satelite and hdtv? You know after the station goes offline and the colored lines disappear? You know that noise of grey, black and white that crawled accross the screen? Well walk this house and you will be reminded of waking up at 2 am to shut the tv off back in the 80's, except it is different sheens of flat, kinda shiny, and very shiny.

I have never seen anything like it.

There is not one house that I have ever painted that I would not take anyone too, until this one.

Feel my pain?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I think part of what you are running into is that this was a humdinger of a problem to present in your first post, so noone here knew anything about you. Around here, when a new person rolls in with a paint failure, we usually have to start with the basics and expand outwardly in order to help.

What is a "masco owned company"? I have not heard of this before. 

Also, confused about you tinting your own paints etc. Are you a paint store that offers paint service or something? And again, you will have to excuse us for not having the whole picture here, yet.

You mentioned having worked successfully in the past on this kind of an application using Sherwin Williams. What possessed you to switch manufacturers? Most of us, as you are finding, would not consider that even a lateral move.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Dude, I would go thru the investigative motions b 4 you start blaming yourself. Findings may point to the drywall finishers or the paint itself. I can understand your frustrations, don't be so hard on yourself until findings are complete.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Did you notice the problem after painting a couple rooms?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

"Understand that I am a Masco owned company and that my paint department is using BEHR becasue of that fact. We have our own tint machine and shakers and our paint comes directly from BEHR. "

So are you an employee of a Masco owned company? If so then is it your responsibility to fixed this issue? I know you painted it but if your an employee the burden of responsibility usually falls to a higher authority?

Too me it is the fault of the paint itself, the drywallers who troweled on the plaster or your spraying technique/sprayer its self. Or a combo of all the above.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

api11296 said:


> I just ruined a 3+ MILLION dollar 8000+ Sq. Ft. home.
> 
> _No you didnt. You didnt leave oily rags in a trash can full of sawdust and burn the place to the ground, and dont go getting any big ideas here! You have a paint problem, which hopefully translates to BEHR has a paint problem. _
> 
> ...


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

Honestly, I would have noticed a problem after painting 1 or 2 rooms not the whole damn house. Yes, I would say you are part of the problem not noticing sooner. Wait until you obtain the findings of the investigation before taking all the blame.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

Masco Contractor Services bought out the company I work for.
Masco is currently buying up and opening various construction businesses. They want to build a work force of companies under one corporation so that Masco owned businesses can take a house from the dirt up. In my area they are currently looking for a Dry wall company to buy out.

The company I work for, that is owned by Masco, opened up a paint department. We can't sell paint unless we are putting it on the wall. We are just like a paint store save for that one fact. 

BEHR is also a Masco owned company as it Titian, yes I already agree with your thoughts on that one, but because it is Masco owned we are supposed to use other Masco owned companies for our supplies when ever possible.

I shut my own paint company down to come work for this company. Insurance rates in my area were through the roof and my profits in the toilet. I owned my own business for 15+ years and I never had a lawsuit or an injury to an employee. I have done some major accomplishments in my career. Have had houses I painted showcased in magazines. I am a favorite with designers who know that paint is really what makes the house. If the paint ain't right then nothing ever will be. So if I take it all a little personally it is because I am a newbe to the corporate world. Yes, my company has awesome insurance and the Masco corporation will see to it that this situation is rectified. 

In the mean time it is yet another challenge that I put on my shoulder. I'm just that type of person. Especially since I was one of the spray guys pumping paint on the walls. I like this builder and love working on his projects, I'd hate to lose this guys business over this. So it is personal for me even if it is not a personal problem.

I won't leave this house like it sits, and I am open to any solution that works. However, at this point, completly redoing drywall is not an option.

I have never had to advertise and good news travels fast. But with a house like this in the area it is located in and with the contractors that mirror the jobs I work on, the news of this house could kill the word of mouh business that has kept me busy for so many years.

I know you all speak from experience's you have had with BEHR and I can only give you the facts of my situation. Thanks for all the support. I hope you can understand the position that I am in.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

If that corporate structure binds you to using BEHR, I would bail. 

The reality of your problem is that the builder knows there is a significant paint issue. If you, or whoever is in charge of contractor relations, don't come up with a plan quickly to resolve this problem then the builder will just as quickly lose confidence in your ability to do so. In his mind, if you cant identify the problem, then you cant fix it. In all my years of dealing with builders, what they most likely do in this situation is:

1) Not pay you 
2) Bring in a painter to fix the problem 
3) Pay that guy with the money you thought you were earning.
4) Not use you again

Builders need immediate solutions to large scale, high visibility problems. You may just have to do a fair amount of repainting. And, uh, report back to Masco that the BEHR aint workin.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

timhag said:


> Honestly, I would have noticed a problem after painting 1 or 2 rooms not the whole damn house. Yes, I would say you are part of the problem not noticing sooner. Wait until you obtain the findings of the investigation before taking all the blame.


I primed one day and painted the next. Not having experienced a problem like this and having the most confidence in my abilities, I didn't spray two rooms, waste 7 1/2 hours of a day and come back the next day to see if this was gonna happen. Me and one other guy painted this house in about 5 hours. So paint wasn't dry enough being that it was completely masked up, we used enough paint to get a uniform finish, the weather was cool, and the mousture off the chart because the amount of paint pumped into an enclosed area.

When it was drying it looked like it does now but the shiny spots were wet when we left.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Me and one other guy painted this house in about 5 hours.


Whoa, you and one other guy sprayed an 8000 s.f. house in 5 hours?


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> And, uh, report back to Masco that the BEHR aint workin.


Every one got the pictures including a high up Masco Rep, EXCEPT for the guy runing the tests on the paint at BEHR. Oh, he actually got the videos too, so he has the best I can show with out flying in.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

api11296 said:


> . Me and one other guy painted this house in about 5 hours. .


 That could be the problem.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Whoa, you and one other guy sprayed an 8000 s.f. house in 5 hours?


Less the wet areas, yes. A huge kitchen with ceilings, all one coloar, all flat paint, oh and btw there are 8 bathrooms and a laundry room in this house on top of that kitchen.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok so you have 10 man hours in that bad looking spray job. Lets just say you are worth $50/hr each, just for the sake of a round number. Thats $500. Get some good paint, go back and make it right. This just turned into a no brainer.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

Two rigs, three employees, one mixing, two spaying, going non-stop and a huge open foyer from the second to third level. Not a lot of walls in them big rooms


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Not a lot of walls in them big rooms


Quote of day


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Doesn't any one else have a problem w/ a big corp owning service related business which is in essence a way to start getting rid of us small guys???

Masco has no reason to own any service related business's.. Maybe that is is the real issue here...


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

I failed to mention that we only primed the walls that get stone. There is a lot of stone in this house on the second and third floors as well as that is where all of the bedrooms kitchen, laundry room, and bathroom are. The garage is two sories high and included in the sq.ft. of the house and was not painted that day. 2 car garage. I had 5 hours alone in the first floor which in the picture is the room you see with a small bed/bath no closet at the end to the right, a powder room, storage room, and a small theater with a prime only electrical room for storing audio video eqipment. Included in the five hours is the stairwell to the second floor, completely open from 1st to third floor. Also this house has a three story elevator lobby that was prime only. Regardless there are 7 coats on the ceiling in the picture and when wet it reflected like a mirror and looked like a sheet of glass.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Doesn't any one else have a problem w/ a big corp owning service related business which is in essence a way to start getting rid of us small guys???
> 
> Masco has no reason to own any service related business's.. Maybe that is is the real issue here...


Now theres a big fat can of worms. Similar to the Home Depot contractor referral network. It all kind of flies in the face of the independant small business. Lets face it, we all have to figure out how to work insurance costs into our rate structures. If we wanted to work for a conglomerate, we would be better of doing it as something other than painters. Can you imagine being told what you have to use for equipment and products?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Regardless there are 7 coats on the ceiling in the picture and when wet it reflected like a mirror and looked like a sheet of glass.


Curious...How could you justify putting 7 coats of questionable product on the same ceiling, getting the same result each time? 

There must be 1/2 an inch of paint on that mexican hand troweled texture now.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Curious...How could you justify putting 7 coats of questionable product on the same ceiling, getting the same result each time?
> 
> There must be 1/2 an inch of paint on that mexican hand troweled texture now.


...and this was all done in 5 hours.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I am concerned that the paint is going to start falling off under the burden of its own weight.


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I am concerned that the paint is going to start falling off under the burden of its own weight.


Dude created a major problem for himself.....huh?


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

"There were no patches in this house as it had been completely had trowled to achieve a Spanish style texture. I throughly examined the drywall prior to priming myself."

? I'm lost here. So are you saying everything was troweled. If so....with what? Was lime involved?


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Okay,
> 
> The walls through out are painted with FLAT BEHR K-200 Contactor series, it is flatter than their shiner K-100 Flat.


So it sounds as though the flat is flashing, and it has dead spots and shiny spots?



api11296 said:


> Prep Coat is drywall mud mixed with paint and is basically what was suggested by adding drywall mud to paint, except it comes pre made from a manufature. I did spray the ceiling you see in this picture with Prep Coat and it did not fix the problem.





api11296 said:


> DAY 1
> Primed with BEHR PVA Primer tinted as close to the wall color as possible with out using too much tint.





api11296 said:


> I failed to mention that we only primed the walls that get stone.





api11296 said:


> The hand texture is pure dry wall mud, layers and layers of drywall mud over the sheetrock. The water used to mix the mud is drinkable water and runs from the same water supply used for surrounding occupied houses.
> 
> There were no patches in this house as it had been completely had trowled to achieve a Spanish style texture. I throughly examined the drywall prior to priming myself.


I'm intrigued now.......

Let's see if i got this right.

So the drywall finish is a hand skim coat to produce a smoothwall?

You only primed some of the walls--did you prime all the ceilings? But seeing as how you're using flat as the finish, it shouldn't matter much.

How short of time you sprayed the walls shouldn't matter--at least it doesn't matter out here in the arid west.


Casey


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Two rigs, three employees, one mixing, two spaying, going non-stop and a huge open foyer from the second to third level. Not a lot of walls in them big rooms


No backroll. I think you have heavy spots and light spots. If not evenly sealed off the get go you will have flashing. Add sh!tty paint and abbricadabra bad paint job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Two rigs, three employees, one mixing, two spaying, going non-stop and a huge open foyer from the second to third level. Not a lot of walls in them big rooms


 
Ok, I think I got it. You didnt spray the wet areas...bathrooms and kitchens. You had a guy mixing. I suspect that the mixer, as he hurried to keep up with the two sprayers accidentally mixed in some eggshell that was intended for the wet areas and you sprayed intermittently with eggshell without knowing it. Check your paint inventory. I bet you find the missing eggshell on the sprayed ceilings and walls.


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## Rustbuster (Mar 25, 2008)

The above posting could be on the right track, we all know it is more often that there is a problem arising from prep/application than the paint itself. This being said, have you checked the batch #s or production runs from the paint that was applied? Was there multiple batches in the used product, if so I would almost rule out the problem coming from the paint.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Doesn't any one else have a problem w/ a big corp owning service related business which is in essence a way to start getting rid of us small guys???
> 
> Masco has no reason to own any service related business's.. Maybe that is is the real issue here...


 
Actually MAK, I have a problem with it and just was not going to post it. You can be sure that I will not only stay far away from Behr paints, but Titan products too. I will not financially support my competition. (at least not their companies in our industry.) 

Here is a link to the companies they own:

http://www.masco.com/our_companies/index.html


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

api11296 said:


> Okay,
> 
> 
> Prep Coat is drywall mud mixed with paint and is basically what was suggested by adding drywall mud to paint, except it comes pre made from a manufature. I did spray the ceiling you see in this picture with Prep Coat and it did not fix the problem.
> ...


Personally, I wish you the best of luck. Professionally, I think you better grab your ankles. Please let us know how it works out.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

BEHR IS HORSE sh t paint man dont and wont ever use that garbage


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Ok, I think I got it. You didnt spray the wet areas...bathrooms and kitchens. You had a guy mixing. I suspect that the mixer, as he hurried to keep up with the two sprayers accidentally mixed in some eggshell that was intended for the wet areas and you sprayed intermittently with eggshell without knowing it. Check your paint inventory. I bet you find the missing eggshell on the sprayed ceilings and walls.[/quote
> 
> Eggshell was not on the job, nor was primer on the job the day we sprayed flat paint. Even so, the effect is throughout the house, not just in some areas. The eggshell areas are the worst.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

Rustbuster said:


> The above posting could be on the right track, we all know it is more often that there is a problem arising from prep/application than the paint itself. This being said, have you checked the batch #s or production runs from the paint that was applied? Was there multiple batches in the used product, if so I would almost rule out the problem coming from the paint.


The primer is all from one batch as is the paint. I order job by job and check my batch numbers. The only time we mix batch numbers are on brush and roll where there are different colors and then each color has the same batch or when using different batches of paint we label each room and keep the batches seperate or box all of the material together prior to painting anything or when two coating - use one batch and then switch to the new batch. I hate having touch-up problems.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Personally, I wish you the best of luck. Professionally, I think you better grab your ankles. Please let us know how it works out.


Squeezing butt cheeks really tightly together at the moment, lol. 

I didn't put 7 coats through out this house, nor did I vear from the manufatures instructions. This is all new drywall and mud. I have been using BEHR, (for most of my projects), for over a year now. I have had to get SW paint to solve some issues I have experienced in the past. I have not had to prime tape joints prior to priming the walls. Never had this problem. 

In these particular houses, which I bid as complete re-paints after all trades finish. Touch-up is corner to corner and all patching is done after painting. Patches are primed and walls are repainted. I'll show you the finished product in about two months when this house is released back to us.

I am not too concerned, I found this site through google and have faith in my fellow professional painters. I have read many posts and have found one that reported simular issues. BEHR tells me they have never heard of this problem before. Hmmmm...


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

painttofish said:


> No backroll. I think you have heavy spots and light spots. If not evenly sealed off the get go you will have flashing. Add sh!tty paint and abbricadabra bad paint job.


We tried back rolling and the flashing came through that too and they just looked even worse...never the less, I will roll out the whole house, and I am just not sure which paint to use, that will depend on the further testing results that BEHR wants me to do. 

Abbricadabra, abbricadabra: Nope, didn't fix the problem. Probably gonna take more than a magician to fix this one.

BTW, I hear that the better the paint the harder it is to use; at least, that's what I hear.


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## api11296 (Apr 10, 2008)

alpinecrick said:


> So it sounds as though the flat is flashing, and it has dead spots and shiny spots?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


House is primed through out. Only thing not painted is the elevator shaft and darned if it isn't the best looking part of the house at the moment. Three story elevator shaft and I can't take a bad picture of it no matter where I look. I can see very small areas of minor blotchyness on the first level. But it looks like a great prime job, better then the painted areas at least. Unfortionately, this part of the house will never be seen when an elevatior is put in...go figure. Yes, it has the same trowel effect as the rest of the house.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Because of the amount of paint on some of the ceilings or walls. Flashing may still be an issue. Even if it has been awhile since you painted last. The shiny spots could still be moisture trapped in the paint film. Locate two similar areas in the house. Keep the temps in the 70's and put a big fan on one area and see if it noticeably changes in a day or two. If it does. Time may fix all.


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

*Phrase coinage*

All fluff, no stuff.


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## Art Works Interiors (Apr 4, 2008)

It's either the paint, the technique or the surface materials.

Can you replicate all three on a test piece?


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## florin (May 17, 2008)

HomeGuardPaints said:


> Your problem is........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about exterior? I plan to buy some paint from home depot for a couple of decks. They have BEHR and CIL


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## Mopaint (Oct 17, 2007)

This is called angular sheen. I encountered this when the first washable flats came out in the 70's. One was Sears Easy Living series. You need a true flat. All flats are not flat. I found BM wall satin (not satin finish) made in flat is a true flat. This will solve your problem. I ran in to this last year on a simular situation. Also at this point I would roll it with an 18" on a cool morning so it doesn't dry and lap on you. Good luck, MOPAINT


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## MaizeandBluePainter (May 7, 2008)

*solving paint problem*

*Art Works Interiors said:*
"It's either the paint, the technique or the surface materials. Can you replicate all three on a test piece?"

That's what I was just thinking. 

There are so many variables that you might have to take a strict, systematic approach to get to the bottom of the problem. 

If you want to find out whether it's the paint or the wall, you could always take a half-sheet of gypsum that has never been hand-troweled, and paint it with the same techniques and products that you used on the house. Then take it to the site and look at it under the same light conditions as the job.

If you have no flashing that way, maybe the walls were funny before you painted them. Maybe you could get the drywaller to perform a Mexican hand-troweling job on a half-sheet of drywall, and then paint it (same way you did on the job) and examine it in the natural light on the job site. 

(And if it is the fault of the wall, you may be able to reproduce the flashing on additional samples even with different paint products, and with different methods of applying the paint.)

If the problem doesn't pop up again in either test, maybe something happened with your process during the painting of the house. Or maybe you got a bad batch of paint. (Got some of that paint left?)

I would break the job down and test one variable at a time until you figure out which one screwed up the paint job. Just as a matter of pride, it would be so much better to go back to the contractor and say for certain that you know what went wrong and how it can be fixed.


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## Douglas Owen (Jan 27, 2012)

*problem ceiling*

Over the years I have finished out full floors in buildings with s.w. paints,
ici paints,devo,etc... but when it comes to ceilings, sherwin williams is 
the only paint i will use because when it says flat, it is flat. All others
have some sheen. Most people who say they want a sheen!, Give them
a sample and show them they dont! Try a coat or 2 of s.w. flat.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

I'm going to go out on a limb here but have you ever successfully rolled this product and not had the problem? Some paints, especially those formulated for the DIY market, are designed for brush and roll and do not atomize well. Coupled with glycol's in the colorant, this may be a component in the flashing. It appears that so many colors and batches are exhibiting the same issue, I don't see it being a batch issue but perhaps a formulation issue unless I'm missing something in this thread. What does the data sheet say the angular sheen is supposed to be?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

In before the obligatory necro-thread references. :thumbsup:


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

NACE said:


> What does the data sheet say the angular sheen is supposed to be?


I shouldn't go there but SW has what is labeled "Flat" with all different angular sheens from product to product. I wonder what SW flat product D Owen likes the best and what that sheen really is?


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