# Others Painters Paint Charts On Table At Estimate?



## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Ok, I just went to look at a complete house repaint (nice home)!!!
When I was in the kitchen, I saw another contractors fan-deck on the kitchen table. First thing I thought was that he already hired a contractor and he wants to make sure he is not paying too much. Just to test him, I asked him if he wanted me to give him my fan-deck, he said no, the one he has is fine. So I thought, "he wants another painters, paint charts and not mine"? hummm? Strange!!!

I spent 2 hours driving out there and back, but I still did not give him a price yet.

My question to you guys is; do you think this guy already hired a contractor? 
Should I spend anymore time writing up an estimate?


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## South-FL-Painter (Jan 17, 2012)

Maybe he got the fan deck from the store.Many of my customers go and get the fan decks in the store and they will have colors already when I arrive for estimate(and for some reason,I noticed that specially on high-end jobs and wealthy customers)

But who knows,maybe I am wrong.Every story has its own story.
I would write-up the estimate no matter what.

Sharp


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

A lot of lay people have fan decks. I've gotten pinched for a few fan decks my own self. If you got two hours invested already you should surely write up an estimate I'd think.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Damn - I was wondering where I left my fan deck. Yeah, don't bother. 


Seriously, from what you've said I assume the other painter had his name on the deck. If I leave a color chart or deck with a client it's usually because they have accepted my bid or at least indicated a very strong desire to go with me. I don't like leaving something of mine with a "maybe" customer. It's always awkward trying to get it back (and inevitably another customer suddenly wants it right away).

Still, things happen so following through with a bid at this point certainly couldn't hurt. I never like giving up on a potential job (that I want) until I hear it from the client.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Ok, I just went to look at a complete house repaint (nice home)!!!
> When I was in the kitchen, I saw another contractors fan-deck on the kitchen table. First thing I thought was that he already hired a contractor and he wants to make sure he is not paying too much. Just to test him, I asked him if he wanted me to give him my fan-deck, he said no, the one he has is fine. So I thought, "he wants another painters, paint charts and not mine"? hummm? Strange!!!
> ou
> I spent 2 hours driving out there and back, but I still did not give him a price yet.
> ...


Frankly, I'd be tempted to cut my losses and not waste any more time on it, but a lot would depend on what work you have booked.

An hour away?! Two hours of driving each day? What's the likelihood that you can cover than expense in your price and still close the deal? My own personal Magic Eightball says, "All signs point to 'no'".


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Frankly, I'd be tempted to cut my losses and not waste any more time on it, but a lot would depend on what work you have booked.
> 
> An hour away?! Two hours of driving each day? What's the likelihood that you can cover than expense in your price and still close the deal? My own personal Magic Eightball says, "All signs point to 'no'".


I think you and I are spoiled. I walked home from a job I bid the other day. :yes:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Ok, I just went to look at a complete house repaint (nice home)!!!
> When I was in the kitchen, I saw another contractors fan-deck on the kitchen table. First thing I thought was that he already hired a contractor and he wants to make sure he is not paying too much. Just to test him, I asked him if he wanted me to give him my fan-deck, he said no, the one he has is fine. So I thought, "he wants another painters, paint charts and not mine"? hummm? Strange!!!
> 
> I spent 2 hours driving out there and back, but I still did not give him a price yet.
> ...


Do you have any proof it's another contractors fan deck? If not I wouldn't worry about it. Give em a bid and who knows, you just might land a nice job.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> I think you and I are spoiled. I walked home from a job I bid the other day. :yes:


I was thinking the same thing when I posted my comment. Our current job is 3 minutes away, on foot. 

I have a hunch we may get some grief about this....


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> I was thinking the same thing when I posted my comment. Our current job is 3 minutes away, on foot.
> 
> I have a hunch we may get some grief about this....


meh...


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

researchhound said:


> Damn - I was wondering where I left my fan deck. Yeah, don't bother.
> 
> 
> Seriously, from what you've said I assume the other painter had his name on the deck. If I leave a color chart or deck with a client it's usually because they have accepted my bid or at least indicated a very strong desire to go with me. I don't like leaving something of mine with a "maybe" customer. It's always awkward trying to get it back (and inevitably another customer suddenly wants it right away).
> ...


Yes, I only leave a fan-deck if my proposal has been excepted! It could be a $10,000 job. I will give him a price even though I feel used!


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Damon T said:


> Do you have any proof it's another contractors fan deck? If not I wouldn't worry about it. Give em a bid and who knows, you just might land a nice job.


No, I am pretty sure it was one of the other painters charts. 
The house has builders spray paint. This will be the first paint job the house is getting since the builders white wash.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Frankly, I'd be tempted to cut my losses and not waste any more time on it, but a lot would depend on what work you have booked.
> 
> *An hour away?!* Two hours of driving each day? What's the likelihood that you can cover than expense in your price and still close the deal? My own personal Magic Eightball says, "All signs point to 'no'".


No! Rush hour traffic getting there, getting gas, stopping for food along the way. Plus time estimating the job. 

It's about 30 mins up and 30 mins back. But still, I left here at 6 pm and returned home at 8 pm... At 6 pm, I could have kicked back with a few beers and called it a night!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I've had many HO's who have their own fan decks.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Yes, I only leave a fan-deck if my proposal has been excepted! It could be a $10,000 job. I will give him a price even though I feel used!


Hey, I've learned to never assume anything (good or bad) until the customer has spoken. And even if they don't go with me I never burn any bridges. Stay professional no matter what happens.

Sounds like sweet gig and worth going after. Too bad the other guy didn't leave his proposal for you to see.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> No! Rush hour traffic getting there, getting gas, stopping for food along the way. Plus time estimating the job.
> 
> It's about 30 mins up and 30 mins back. But still, I left here at 6 pm and returned home at 8 pm... At 6 pm, I could have kicked back with a few beers and called it a night!


 
One sure way to not get the job is to not bid it. And no one ever said that owning a business was only 8 hour days.:thumbsup:


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## Steve Burnett (May 28, 2012)

Yes bid that job! In fact, drive back out there with bells and whistles and sit down with him to go over it step by step line by line answering all of his questions! 
Then ASK FOR THE SALE! 

All the best!


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

This might help you Excal.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Now that I know that it's really a 30-minute drive to the job, I'll modify my earlier negative stance. For us, if this potential client was well-placed in our network, I'd continue to pursue the sale. 

The question we ALWAYS ask during the very first contact with an unknown client: "How did you get our name?" Since we're not in the phone book, don't have our name on the trucks, and don't advertise, this is a crucial step for us. For us, it's probably the single most important question toward qualifying the lead. 

OTOH, if they got our name from the local paint store that's trying to win our business back, or from a former client who's on our infamous Fecal Roster, we probably "wouldn't be able to get to that job within the time frame they desire". 

I know that's a very different approach from what nearly everybody uses, but it's one that has served us well.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> Now that I know that it's really a 30-minute drive to the job, I'll modify my earlier negative stance. For us, if this potential client was well-placed in our network, I'd continue to pursue the sale.
> 
> The question we ALWAYS ask during the very first contact with an unknown client: "How did you get our name?" Since we're not in the phone book, don't have our name on the trucks, and don't advertise, this is a crucial step for us. For us, it's probably the single most important question toward qualifying the lead.
> 
> ...


Fecal Roster! That's awesome!


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

I have two regulars, that each own their own Benny Moore decks.

I also often return the paint stores lent out decks when I go to get the paint.

Don't assume.. you know how the saying goes.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

I suggest you quit trying to sink your ship before it sails, like you've done so often before.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Bid everything.

That paint deck means nothing.Could have been a pushy painter that got on his nerves. Some of our biggest projects have been ones that I didn't think would call back.My judgement sucks. Provide a proposal.Do a follow up call in 2 days then move on to the next one.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Estimate is being emailed out tonight, on a pdf @ $6,900 

Thanks for everyone's input!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Estimate is being emailed out tonight, on a pdf @ $6,900
> 
> Thanks for everyone's input!


Paint included?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Oden said:


> Paint included?


Yes, but I just changed to $7,250
I priced it with SW 200 (LVOC).


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

When in doubt, Add three fiddy


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Yes, but I just changed to $7,250
> I priced it with SW 200 (LVOC).


I hope you get it and u make money. Just curious, we're you to get the job how much time do you expect to be there? How many man days? Eight and skate? Five days a week? you gonna do the job solo?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

wje said:


> When in doubt, Add three fiddy


haha... I added an extra gallon for each room. 10 rooms x $35. I get ProMar 200 for $25 bucks!


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Oden said:


> I hope you get it and u make money. Just curious, we're you to get the job how much time do you expect to be there? How many man days? Eight and skate? Five days a week? you gonna do the job solo?


I hope to get it too. I did it by the Sq. I will be there 5 days a week with 1 helper. Nice job to end a year with. 

I have another whole house to look at for a Realtor. she says she is making settlement on Dec 14th... It would be nice to get both jobs. My 2012 would end with a big bang! :thumbsup:


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

I will only leave my Dulux Fan decks 
And Dulux Atlas with Quotes that have been accepted Only


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## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

benthepainter said:


> I will only leave my Dulux Fan decks
> And Dulux Atlas with Quotes that have been accepted Only


Who makes the paint swatch binder you have in the photo? Where would I get something like that? It looks pretty cool.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Westview said:


> Who makes the paint swatch binder you have in the photo? Where would I get something like that? It looks pretty cool.


I don't know about that particular one, but all of the paint companies that we've worked with have " Designer packs", color sample sets for interior designers and architects. These seem to vary a bit from one mfg to another. The BM set that we have is two nylon sample cases, each with large (~2x4) color samples.

Check with your paint supplier. We've had to pay for some of our and we've received others for free.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Westview said:


> Who makes the paint swatch binder you have in the photo? Where would I get something like that? It looks pretty cool.


G'day Westview 

The big one is the Dulux Atlas : ) I bring that out when a client can't find a colour in my normal Dulux Fan decks
Like a while back a client wanted a light green and couldn't find it in my normal fan decks so she wanted To find this certain Green 
So out comes the Dulux Atlas and she did : ) 

like everything over in OZ way to expensive the Atlas is $160 from my Dulux Trade Centre 










The IPhone is in the pic to show the size. Comparison to the chart


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Man, you actually left your house and drove and did the estimate?

I usually talk myself out of doing estimates. I figure I won't get the job anyways so why even bother...


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## Custom Brush Co. (Jan 26, 2011)

You could have remarked they are on top of getting their colors & ask where they got them too... Open the discussion. Perhaps they hired & fired the guy. Then you can chat about why & learn how to please them. Don't allow your brain to overthink & project on to the customer. You'll never know the truth unless you ask...


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> Man, you actually left your house and drove and did the estimate?
> 
> I usually talk myself out of doing estimates. I figure I won't get the job anyways so why even bother...


*Proposal has been sent!*

CONTRACT FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES

AREAS COVERED IN THIS AGREEMENT: complete interior house repainting to include; all
rooms, (interior closets not included).

SCOPE OF WORK: prep & paint - ceilings & walls, all wood trim to include; columns, doors &
frames, baseboards and window sills.

WALLS & CEILINGS: apply (2) coats of Sherwin Williams ‘ProMar 200’ (Zero VOC).

WOOD TRIM: apply (2) coats of Sherwin Williams ‘ProMar 200’ semi-gloss.

PREP WORK: spackle & sand, nail pops, cracks and minor imperfections as needed.

CONTRACTOR AGREES TO PROVIDE ALL LABOR, MATERIAL, AND EQUIPMENT
(UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED IN THIS AGREEMENT) TO COMPLETE THE WORK DESCRIBED IN THIS AGREEMENT.

TOTAL PRICE: $7,250

START DATE: not scheduled

● PAYMENT SCHEDULE: A DEPOSIT OF 1/3 TOTAL PRICE DUE UPON SIGNING OF
AGREEMENT: $2,416
● A DRAW AGAINST REMAINING BALANCE (NOT TO EXCEED 1/3 OF TOTAL PRICE)
DUE AFTER 3 WORKING DAYS: $2,416
● REMAINING BALANCE DUE BY THE END OF BUSINESS ON THE DAY OF
COMPLETION: $2,418


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> *Proposal has been sent!*
> 
> CONTRACT FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
> 
> ...


 
no tax?


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## MASTer Painter (Feb 19, 2012)

Congrats on the job.

If I was paying someone 7000 dollars to get my house painted I would want some better trim paint then Promar 200 Sgloss thats for darn sure. Throw some Proclassic on there. And 2 coats of ceiling paint? What a time waste. 

KILLZ PROX110 Flat


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Tax on what?


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

I am intrigued by that draw schedule. You must get some trusting customers over your way. Otherwise looks like a pretty clean deal. Good luck.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

MASTer Painter said:


> Congrats on the job.
> 
> If I was paying someone 7000 dollars to get my house painted I would want some better trim paint then Promar 200 Sgloss thats for darn sure. Throw some Proclassic on there. And 2 coats of ceiling paint? What a time waste.
> 
> KILLZ PROX110 Flat


I am sure you don't live in a house like this! 
Yes, (2) coats on the ceiling. I am going over 'sprayed' builders paint. 

Hey, ProMar 200 is $30 something a gallon. People shop for low prices. I don't want to clobber him with $50 a gallon paint. With promar 200, I am @ $1,400 for paint. Do you have that kinda cash to paint your own house?


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## MASTer Painter (Feb 19, 2012)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I am sure you don't live in a house like this!
> Yes, (2) coats on the ceiling. I am going over 'sprayed' builders paint.
> 
> Hey, ProMar 200 is $30 something a gallon. People shop for low prices. I don't want to clobber him with $50 a gallon paint. With promar 200, I am @ $1,400 for paint. Do you have that kinda cash to paint your own house?


Hey I understand. Clobber him with 150 dollars an hour for two men instead. I wish I was in your market. We charge 80 an hour for two men. So that would put me at around 5000 for the job. Good luck I hope you get it. Thats good money


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

You don't put how many days, approx the project will take or did you just leave it out of your post?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

caulktheline said:


> I am intrigued by that *draw schedule.* You must get some trusting customers over your way. Otherwise looks like a pretty clean deal. Good luck.


That was an error. Second payment is at a mid way point. 
I used another (small job) proposal as a template. I didn't catch the error until I reviewed it today.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> You don't put how many days, approx the project will take or did you just leave it out of your post?


He didn't ask so I left it blank.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> He didn't ask so I left it blank.


Oh, ok. Just curious.

How are things there with the storm?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Damon T said:


> I've had many HO's who have their own fan decks.


 I have many homeowners that are fans!


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

mudbone said:


> I have many homeowners that are fans!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> *Proposal has been sent!*
> 
> CONTRACT FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
> 
> ...


Yeah, your welcome.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

ProWallGuy said:


> Yeah, your welcome.


Thanks! I did a lot of tweaking and cut some previsions out.

Here is something I added that you may be able to use!

A) ACCESS TO THE JOB SITE:
Customer agrees and understands that access to the jobsite must be provided between 8 a.m.
and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, for the duration of this job. *< much shorter *

B) CUSTOMER RESPONSIBILITIES:
1. Customer will assume responsibility to remove from any and all work areas, all household
and personal items (with the exception of large furniture such as sofas and beds), and store
those items away from the work area during the duration of the job. Contractor will not be held
liable for damage to any items not removed from the work area.
2. Due to insurance regulations and safety procedures, the customer, other contractors,
workers, children, pets, and individuals will not enter the work area unless agreed upon by both
the Contractor and the Customer. If other contractors, workers, children, pets, or individuals
are to be present during the duration of the scope of work, the Customer shall not schedule or
permit such activities that will interfere with or prevent the timely and successful completion of
the work The Contractor shall not be held liable for any damage caused to its work by anyone
other than the Contractor and its employees.
*3. Customer shall not perform or alter any portion of the job themselves, as outlined under the
scope of work.
4. Contractor shall place all empty paint cans, trash and any waste created during the course
of work in contractor trash bags and leave all bags at the customers location. Customer will
assume responsibility of disposal.*


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Thanks! I did a lot of tweaking and cut some previsions out.
> 
> Here is something I added that you may be able to use!
> 
> ...


Well, since you're putting it out here for us to see...

I assume the above is only going into your contract and not your proposal. This would be unnecessary verbiage to have on just a bid.

In A) I'd change "must" to "shall". Comes across as less of a demand and more of a request.

B) seems awfully wordy:
1. Prior to start of project, work areas will be cleared of all personal possesions except large furniture pieces (_list in parentheses only if necessary_).

2. The homeowner shall make all possible effort to avoid the active work areas during scheduled hours. This is a matter of safety for *everyone*. 
(_I think this needs to be framed more as a strong request since it's virtually impossible for you to enforce. I'd also leave out the bit about other contractors unless you know that's a potential problem on this job)_)

3. Really? I've never had a customer do anything like that.

4. I always haul out all of my own trash. IMO it's bad form to expect the customer to pay for disposal so I just factor it into the bid. 

Just my take on it.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

researchhound said:


> Well, since you're putting it out here for us to see...
> 
> I assume the above is only going into your contract and not your proposal. This would be unnecessary verbiage to have on just a bid.
> 
> ...


I would bet everybody here does the same.
Leaving old paint cans and other crap on the job? Just ridiculous.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

researchhound said:


> 3. Really? I've never had a customer do anything like that.


Remember, he had that guy tear into the drywall he was working on that time.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> *Proposal has been sent!*
> 
> CONTRACT FOR PROFESSIONAL SERVICES
> 
> ...


You would not be putting that crap on any trim in my house thats for sure


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> Remember, he had that guy tear into the drywall he was working on that time.


No, I didn't recall that. Even so, just because it happened once I don't think I'd be inclined to put it into my bid or even contract language. Sh!t happens.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Contract looks like that guy who got banned on here, remember he had to alter his contract because the homeowner altered his drywall patch.....

*3 of the contract.... nice*


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

^ that's the one rh.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

matt19422 said:


> Contract looks like that guy who got banned on here, remember he had to alter his contract because the homeowner altered his drywall patch.....
> 
> 3 of the contract.... nice


Ah yes the wallpaper removal rant. That was one of my personal favorites from that crazed lunatic.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Nah man, this guy's name is Steve


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> Nah man, this guy's name is Steve


Musta been another Steve...wasn't me.

Never had anyone mess with a job I already started.

(they wait until after I'm done to start over)


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> Remember, he had that guy tear into the drywall he was working on that time.


lol - I remember it now. 

I had a job last year where there wasn't any street parking and the house had one skinny, short little driveway that only one car would fit on. Every morning the HO and I had to play musical parking spot. Still, I wouldn't put anything in my contract or bid about providing a parking place. Just saying.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

I got this contract from the 'File Swap Thread posted by; ProWallGuy - Post #4 (contract). "TERMS AND CONDITIONS (A thru I)"! However, my post was to ProWallGuy to show him a few changes I made to suit my needs. Here is A & B before I shaved it down. I also uploaded the full original contract on a pdf file, which I believe was created by PDCA. Check that out at the bottom of this post.

*From the original *
A) ACCESS TO THE JOB SITE:
Customer agrees and understands that access to the jobsite must be provided between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, for the duration of this job. If at any time access is not available to the Contractor for any reason, the Customer agrees to reimburse the Contractor for expenses incurred for travel and lost time at the rate of $55.00 per man-hour, and $0.40 per mile per vehicle.

B) CUSTOMER RESPONSIBILITIES:
1. Customer will assume responsibility to remove from any and all work areas, all household and personal items (with the exception of large furniture such as sofas and beds), and store those items away from the work area during the duration of the job. Contractor will not be held liable for damage to any items not removed from the work area. Any and all items remaining in the work area will be moved by the Contractor, and the Customer agrees to pay the Contractor a charge of $55.00 per man-hour for moving these items. Contractor will move large furniture at no cost to the owner (unless specified otherwise). Contractor will not be held liable for any damage caused by moving any items.

2. Due to insurance regulations and safety procedures, the customer, other contractors, workers, children, pets, and individuals will not enter the work area unless agreed upon by both the Contractor and the Customer. If other contractors, workers, children, pets, or individuals are to be present during the duration of the scope of work, the Customer shall not schedule or permit such activities that will interfere with or prevent the timely and successful completion of the work. If the Contractor must stop work due to interference of any nature, the Customer agrees to compensate the Contractor at the rate of $55.00 per man-hour until work can continue as scheduled. The Contractor shall not be held liable for any damage caused to its work by anyone other than the Contractor and its employees. The Customer agrees to compensate the Contractor at the rate of $55.00 per man-hour to correct all such damage.


researchhound said:


> Well, since you're putting it out here for us to see...
> 
> I assume the above is only going into your contract and not your proposal. This would be unnecessary verbiage to have on just a bid.


Well, when you offer a proposal, you don't believe that TERMS AND CONDITIONS should be proposed? I think TERMS AND CONDITIONS are just as important as the price. If you don't have TERMS AND CONDITIONS, that would mean that anything goes. I don't like that idea!



researchhound said:


> In A) I'd change "must" to "shall". Comes across as less of a demand and more of a request.
> 
> B) seems awfully wordy:
> 1. Prior to start of project, work areas will be cleared of all personal possesions except large furniture pieces (_list in parentheses only if necessary_).
> ...


A) the original contract states "MUST"!
3. Customer shall not perform or alter any portion of the job themselves, as outlined under the scope of work.

- I had a repeat customer award me a job for $1,500. 2/3 was painting and 1/3 was wallpaper. Job was booked a month in advance. When I was ready to start the job, I gave her 48 hr notice. At that time she explained to me that her and her husband did all of the paint themselves, and she only needed me to do the wallpaper. (Where was my phone call from her, stating that she intended to do the painting herself)?

- I was scheduled to do a painting and wallpaper job which was planned weeks in advance. Paper was on back order. When the paper finally arrived, the HO called and told me the paper was in. Then she stated, "by the way", "haha, my husband did the painting work".

- When I arrived to start a condo paint job, the customer (in every room), pull all molly bolts clean out of the wall giving me extra prep work. There were 30 of them. This was done without my knowledge. I

- I have arrived on jobs to remove paper and paint walls. Customers states, oh, my husband and I had noting to do so wee started pulling paper off over the weekend. Do we get a deduction in price?

- Customer takes it upon himself to patch holes and do chit taping before the work started which I had to fix...

Do you need more examples?

4. Contractor shall place all empty paint cans, trash and any waste created during the course
of work in contractor trash bags and leave all bags at the customers location. Customer will
assume responsibility of disposal.

- yes, if I remove wallpaper, I do not bring their paper home with me. Secondly, I do not have a dump or landfill where I can dispose of paint cans and their waste. My only alternative would be to illegally dump it and that's not going to happen. All trash bags are left curb side.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

researchhound said:


> lol - I remember it now.
> 
> I had a job last year where there wasn't any street parking and the house had one skinny, short little driveway that only one car would fit on. Every morning the HO and I had to play musical parking spot. Still, I wouldn't put anything in my contract or bid about providing a parking place. Just saying.


You were at the house, you gave the estimate, so you knew what to expect the day you started the job. This was not an unforeseen issue! 

Funny you should mention this. A customer of mine showed me a Do's & Don't's list that a hardwood floor installer gave him prior to starting his work. 

One of the do's was - (I am not sure of the exact working) 
*please have your vehicles removed from the driveway by 7:45 am.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Steve Richards said:


> Musta been another Steve...wasn't me.
> 
> Never had anyone mess with a job I already started.
> 
> (they wait until after I'm done to start over)


 You mean another lunatic,not this one!


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> Musta been another Steve...wasn't me.
> 
> *Never had anyone mess with a job I already started.*
> 
> (they wait until after I'm done to start over)


I am referring to before the work starts!


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

chrisn said:


> I would bet everybody here does the same.
> Leaving old paint cans and other crap on the job? Just ridiculous.


No dumps or landfill to depose of trash here. I look at it like this, its their house, therefore its their trash! 

These are my two choices,
1. leave the cans and trash curb side with the customer or,
2. take it with me then illegally dump it!


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> No dumps or landfill to depose of trash here. I look at it like this, its their house, therefore its their trash!
> 
> These are my two choices,
> 1. leave the cans and trash curb side with the customer or,
> 2. take it with me then illegally dump it!


 
You don't have garbage service? Do you live in a van down by the river?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Excalibur, I don't know what part of the country you work in, but I wonder if some of the issue with having to spell out so many conditions is an "East versus West" thing, or maybe it's "Big City versus Smaller City." I know Researchhound and I both work in modest-sized cities in the Great Northwest. I know that, in the 32 years since we started the company, I've only had to go to such lengths with one residential client...and she had just moved here from Long Island. I've got family in the East, and I know they all maintain adversarial relationships with the tradesmen who work in and around their homes. They didn't use to be that way until they moved east, so I have to wonder. On the other hand, they've always been a$$holes, so that environment may just help that side of them flourish.

What I've seen as the difference in attitudes between East and West is one more reason that I'm thankful to live where I do.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I am referring to before the work starts!


I remember another guy not too long ago start a thread about this subject...

What a coincidence.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Excalibur, I don't know what part of the country you work in, but I wonder if some of the issue with having to spell out so many conditions is an "East versus West" thing, or maybe it's "Big City versus Smaller City." I know Researchhound and I both work in modest-sized cities in the Great Northwest. I know that, in the 32 years since we started the company, I've only had to go to such lengths with one residential client...and she had just moved here from Long Island. I've got family in the East, and I know they all maintain adversarial relationships with the tradesmen who work in and around their homes. They didn't use to be that way until they moved east, so I have to wonder. On the other hand, they've always been a$$holes, so that environment may just help that side of them flourish.
> 
> What I've seen as the difference in attitudes between East and West is one more reason that I'm thankful to live where I do.


The contract is from PDCA (who holds the industry's standards). Here it is again... 

Did you ever buy a car or apply for a credit card and see the terms you have to sign? Have you seen Paint Talks "Terms Of Use"? 

Why should a Painting contractors be any different?

PDCA 'Painting Contractor' Contract below!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Well, when you offer a proposal, you don't believe that TERMS AND CONDITIONS should be proposed? I think TERMS AND CONDITIONS are just as important as the price. If you don't have TERMS AND CONDITIONS, that would mean that anything goes. I don't like that idea!


When I present my bid I state the scope of the work to be done (and what won't be done). Terms are confined to start and stop dates and payments required. At that point I feel that's all the customer really cares about unless they bring something up that is of special importance to them. The other terms and conditions are reserved for the contract. If, when I deliver the contract, the customer has concerns about anything, we can discuss them. Once in awhile there might be a minor point of contention - but not very often. I think there's a point where having too many conditions and demands laid out in your bid might be counter productive to landing the job. But, that's just my take.



ExcaliburPainting said:


> 3. Customer shall not perform or alter any portion of the job themselves, as outlined under the scope of work.
> 
> - I had a repeat customer award me a job for $1,500. 2/3 was painting and 1/3 was wallpaper. Job was booked a month in advance. When I was ready to start the job, I gave her 48 hr notice. At that time she explained to me that her and her husband did all of the paint themselves, and she only needed me to do the wallpaper. (Where was my phone call from her, stating that she intended to do the painting herself)?
> 
> ...


I'd hate to think you have more. I guess if you are having that much trouble with people doing this to you you probably should have a "no interference" clause in your contract. Just seems odd to me that this has been such an issue for you. I really never have had anyone ever do this to me. Perhaps I've just been fortunate.



ExcaliburPainting said:


> 4. Contractor shall place all empty paint cans, trash and any waste created during the course
> of work in contractor trash bags and leave all bags at the customers location. Customer will
> assume responsibility of disposal.
> 
> - yes, if I remove wallpaper, I do not bring their paper home with me. Secondly, I do not have a dump or landfill where I can dispose of paint cans and their waste. My only alternative would be to illegally dump it and that's not going to happen. All trash bags are left curb side.


In my case I pay a little extra to have the largest trash bin our city offers so I can dispose of the debris the job generates. If I bring stuff home every day as it's generated there isn't a ton to bring home at once. I rarely have enough to fill the can (including what we generate at home) so it's usually not a problem. If it is, I just put the excess in trash bags by the bin on collection day. Don't know how your disposal pickup system operates but I'd hate to think dumping it illegally is your only alternative to leaving it with the HO. But, perhaps it is.



researchhound said:


> I had a job last year where there wasn't any street parking and the house had one skinny, short little driveway that only one car would fit on. Every morning the HO and I had to play musical parking spot.





ExcaliburPainting said:


> You were at the house, you gave the estimate, so you knew what to expect the day you started the job. This was not an unforeseen issue!


In this case the bid was done on a Saturday. The house is located near campus so when I returned to begin work (on a weekday) the available street parking was taken up by college students. But you're right in that I should have foreseen what the parking would be like. Still, I would have appreciated being reminded of it by the HO. As I've said, sh!t happens.

Again, I was just making some observations. You obviously need to do what you feel works best for you. 

Good luck in landing the job!


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Excalibur, I don't know what part of the country you work in, but I wonder if some of the issue with having to spell out so many conditions is an "East versus West" thing, or maybe it's "Big City versus Smaller City." I know Researchhound and I both work in modest-sized cities in the Great Northwest. I know that, in the 32 years since we started the company, I've only had to go to such lengths with one residential client...and she had just moved here from Long Island. I've got family in the East, and I know they all maintain adversarial relationships with the tradesmen who work in and around their homes. They didn't use to be that way until they moved east, so I have to wonder. On the other hand, they've always been a$$holes, so that environment may just help that side of them flourish.
> 
> What I've seen as the difference in attitudes between East and West is one more reason that I'm thankful to live where I do.


I also think you and I have a similar situation where most of our business is through referrals and word of mouth. Usually there are considerably fewer issues when dealing with those types of customers.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Wow. Can't wait to see how this one turns out. I wouldn't hire anyone who doesn't dispose of their own trash.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)




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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> The contract is from PDCA (who holds the industry's standards). Here it is again...
> 
> Did you ever buy a car or apply for a credit card and see the terms you have to sign? Have you seen Paint Talks "Terms Of Use"?
> 
> ...


No. This is MY company's contract. I made it using snippets and ideas from others contracts (with their permission) and then put it together and had my lawyer go over it and OK it. Are you using it?


----------



## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

RaleighPainter said:


> Wow. Can't wait to see how this one turns out. I wouldn't hire anyone who doesn't dispose of their own trash.


So if you do a wallpaper removal & painting job (and the customer buys the paints), you take their stripped wallpaper and their paint cans with you? 

My customers don't have a problem disposing of their trash and "it is their trash", not mine. We are not talking about building an addition on to their home, where there would be lumber & drywall scraps.


----------



## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

ProWallGuy said:


> No. This is MY company's contract. I made it using snippets and ideas from others contracts (with their permission) and then put it together and had my lawyer go over it and OK it. Are you using it?


Parts of it...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> The contract is from PDCA (who holds the industry's standards). Here it is again...
> 
> Did you ever buy a car or apply for a credit card and see the terms you have to sign? Have you seen Paint Talks "Terms Of Use"?
> 
> ...


We've often used PDCA contract language in our commercial projects; we haven't found it necessary to go to such lengths for residential work. As Researchhound has pointed out, maybe we've both just been lucky.

I also learned years ago that, if there's trust between both parties, an exhaustive contract isn't necessary; if there's not, an exhaustive contract won't save you.


----------



## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

researchhound said:


> I'd hate to think you have more. I guess if you are having that much trouble with people doing this to you you probably should have a "no interference" clause in your contract. Just seems odd to me that this has been such an issue for you. I really never have had anyone ever do this to me. Perhaps I've just been fortunate.


I am not having that much trouble with people. The examples I used are over a 20 year span. 
You never had a difficult customer?


researchhound said:


> In my case I pay a little extra to have the largest trash bin our city offers so I can dispose of the debris the job generates. If I bring stuff home every day as it's generated there isn't a ton to bring home at once. I rarely have enough to fill the can (including what we generate at home) so it's usually not a problem. If it is, I just put the excess in trash bags by the bin on collection day. Don't know how your disposal pickup system operates but I'd hate to think dumping it illegally is your only alternative to leaving it with the HO. But, perhaps it is.


I live in an apartment complex. I have a dumpster that I am only permitted to use for my living needs.


----------



## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ProWallGuy said:


> No. This is MY company's contract. I made it using snippets and ideas from others contracts (with their permission) and then put it together and had my lawyer go over it and OK it. Are you using it?


PWG, you might want to consider adding the copyright symbol © (alt+0169 on the numeric keypad) to your documents. Or, you can just add "Copyright ***x ProWallGuy".

We started doing that when we realized that we were getting "used" to develop specs on jobs. The owners were lifting the specifications from our proposals and using them when they solicited other bids.


----------



## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> We've often used PDCA contract language in our commercial projects; we haven't found it necessary to go to such lengths for residential work. As Researchhound has pointed out, maybe we've both just been lucky.
> 
> *I also learned years ago that, if there's trust between both parties, an exhaustive contract isn't necessary; if there's not, an exhaustive contract won't save you*.


I never have trust issues with customers. Its customers making assumptions and doing stupid stuff. I believe in spelling everything out so there are no surprises.

Did you ever show up on a residential paint job and the customer didn't move any of their personal items? People are clueless to what we need as professionals. 

Did you ever start a job on Monday and the customer tells you on Tue., that you can not work on Thurs., because they won't be home? That is why "Customer agrees and understands that access to the jobsite must be provided between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, for the duration of this job" is on the contract!

Did you ever show up on a job to paint a kitchen, and there was a plumber working on the kitchen sink, tons of tools all over the floor and you couldn't work that day? And the customer never informed you of this prior to appearing to do the work!

Did you ever have a customer tell you what room to start first? Does the customer understand your productions needs? No, No and No! 

You can deal with these occurrences when they occur, or nip it in the bud, and stop this stuff from happening before it happens.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I never have trust issues with customers. Its customers making assumptions and doing stupid stuff. I believe in spelling everything out so there are no surprises.
> 
> Did you ever show up on a residential paint job and the customer didn't move any of their personal items? People are clueless to what we need as professionals.
> 
> ...


 Yes,yes and yes!Been there done that!:thumbsup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

*****


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I never have trust issues with customers. Its customers making assumptions and doing stupid stuff. I believe in spelling everything out so there are no surprises.


I guess we have different approaches. We've been fortunate enough that we've been able to trust that our customers won't do "stupid stuff". I suppose there is a contractor who's had a bad experience and now finds it necessary to include the phrase, "The homeowner agrees that neither he nor his agents shall smear dog-poop on the walls during the duration of the painting project." We find that it's better to avoid clients who seem prone to such behavior.

One thing that we do spell out that I didn't see in the proposal that you posted: number of colors/products. You may have left it out of your post for the sake of brevity, but I know that it's something we make it a point to include. 

We learned that lesson early on when we weren't on the same page as some clients, who added multiple accent walls and changed products (sheen levels) in several rooms. There is some good contract language in the PDCA standards to cover this.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

researchhound said:


> *****


 :blink:?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I am not having that much trouble with people. The examples I used are over a 20 year span.
> You never had a difficult customer?


Sure - I've just never had one start doing what I had contracted to do.



ExcaliburPainting said:


> I live in an apartment complex. I have a dumpster that I am only permitted to use for my living needs.


That would make it difficult to dispose of the extra trash. You must have a real challenge cleaning and storing your gear. I have a hard enough time doing it at my house.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> I guess we have different approaches. We've been fortunate enough that we've been able to trust that our customers won't do "stupid stuff".
> 
> One thing that we do spell out that I didn't see in the proposal that you posted: number of colors/products. You may have left it out of your post for the sake of brevity, but I know that it's something we make it a point to include.
> 
> We learned that lesson early on when we weren't on the same page as some clients, who added multiple accent walls and changed products (sheen levels) in several rooms. There is some good contract language in the PDCA standards to cover this.


Well, people do stupid things, that is a given, (customers, employees, drivers on the road)! Did you ever show up to spray an aluminum sided house and the customer scheduled a roofer the same day? I did! They said, "we didn't think he would be in your way"!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Well, people do stupid things, that is a given, (customers, employees, drivers on the road)! Did you ever show up to spray an aluminum sided house and the customer scheduled a roofer the same day? I did! They said, "we didn't think he would be in your way"!


You definitely need to get a smarter class of customers (jk  ).


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> You definitely need to get a smarter class of customers (jk  ).


RH, I guess working in university towns has its benefits....


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Parts of it...


I hope you are smart enough to fix the parts that are area specific that were left in that pdf.



Gough said:


> PWG, you might want to consider adding the copyright symbol © (alt+0169 on the numeric keypad) to your documents. Or, you can just add "Copyright ***x ProWallGuy".
> 
> We started doing that when we realized that we were getting "used" to develop specs on jobs. The owners were lifting the specifications from our proposals and using them when they solicited other bids.


I might think about that. I put it out there in the interest of sharing for others who didn't have one, or so someone could use it to see what's included, and create their own. I imagine if someone is using it and not really reading it, a smart client will call them out on it, or they will get burned by it in the end.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Ol' snakerudder will find a way to get bitten.:whistling2:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

caulktheline said:


> Ol' snakerudder will find a way to get bitten.:whistling2:


That had to be the lamest name for a band. Ever. Seriously, hair bands sucked when they were popular. Who would want to go back and try that style again and expect to be anything but a wannabe?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

ProWallGuy said:


> I hope you are smart enough to fix the parts that are area specific that were left in that pdf.


Yep, I rewrote your contract to work for me... (IMO - what you have is over kill). Thanks!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ProWallGuy said:


> I hope you are smart enough to fix the parts that are area specific that were left in that pdf.


I know it's WAY off topic, but I have a story about that.

When we adopted our daughter, we were well prepared and chose to handle the court proceedings _pro se rather than paying a lawyer for a straight-forward appearance (it was an international adoption, her guardian was an agency). A lawyer that we knew asked us who our lawyer was and we told him about handling it ourselves. He got up on his high horse and lectured us about how it was critical to have a trained lawyer handle the paperwork to make sure there were no errors. He was pretty obnoxious about the whole thing.

He had actually done the adoption paperwork for some friends when they had adopted their son. We told our friends about our encounter with their lawyer and they showed us the paperwork. It was clear that the lawyer had just cut and pasted the boilerplate from another adoption. He hadn't even bothered to change the pronouns in the filing, referring to our friends' son as "she" throughout._


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

caulktheline said:


> Ol' snakerudder will find a way to get bitten.:whistling2:


You channeling _mudbone_ tonight?


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

I always clean up MY jobsite, to think I would leave $1400.00 worth of promar 200 paint cans at someone's home is obsurd.

Yes, call me crazy but if we remove wallpaper, we bag it and take it with us.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> No dumps or landfill to depose of trash here. I look at it like this, its their house, therefore its their trash!
> 
> These are my two choices,
> 1. leave the cans and trash curb side with the customer or,
> 2. take it with me then illegally dump it!


 
It's their house and *YOUR'E* trash.
You do not have trash service? Come on man


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I am not having that much trouble with people. The examples I used are over a 20 year span.
> You never had a difficult customer?
> 
> I live in an apartment complex. I have a dumpster that I am only permitted to use for my living needs.


You've been doing this for 20 years?

When I lived in an apartment, I put my work-trash in black plastic bags, and into their dumpster.
I don't think most property managers open trash bags to see what's inside.

Yours might..."ahh-HA! empty paint cans, and some wallpaper scraps! I knew that painter was gonna be trouble!"


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

haha :stupid:


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> You've been doing this for 20 years?
> 
> When I lived in an apartment, *I put my work-trash in black plastic bags, and into their dumpster.*
> I don't think most property managers open trash bags to see what's inside.
> ...


Yes, I've done that too. And I still do to some extent. My customers have trash service and most don't mind leaving it curb side in those same black plastic bags. I even had a customer ask me to dispose of their old paint cans, from their DIY projects. Like I have a special place to dump paint! 

Here is the bottom line: I don't provide FREE trash service to my customers! If you gentlemen include disposal of trash with your services - good for you! :thumbup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Yes, I've done that too. And I still do to some extent. My customers have trash service and most don't mind leaving it curb side in those same black plastic bags. I even had a customer ask me to dispose of their old paint cans, from their DIY projects. Like I have a special place to dump paint!
> 
> Here is the bottom line: I don't provide FREE trash service to my customers! If you gentlemen include disposal of trash with your services - good for you! :thumbup:


Not to be snarky, but we've been operating under a fundamental rule of thumb that I learned at an early age. It's called "cleaning up your messes." 

Seriously, in our area, there's a limit to how many containers can be put out for home pickup, most households are allowed one or two containers only. We let the paint cans dry and put them with the regular garbage from the shop. You mentioned that you live in an apartment, so I can't even imagine the issues that raises with your painting equipment and supplies.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Not to be snarky, but we've been operating under a fundamental rule of thumb that I learned at an early age. It's called "cleaning up your messes."


I live by that same rule. I sweep, mop, vacuum, clean any windows we mess up. I leave my jobs spotless. 

Hauling away trash and cleaning up messes are not one in the same.



Gough said:


> Seriously, in our area, there's a limit to how many containers can be put out for home pickup, most households are allowed one or two containers only.


That's your area, not mine! I don't have that issue here.



Gough said:


> We let the paint cans dry and put them with the regular garbage from the shop.


I don't have a shop!




Gough said:


> You mentioned that you live in an apartment, so I can't even imagine the issues that raises with your painting equipment and supplies.


If you are assuming I am a big operation, I can understand your lack of imagination. However, I am a small company. 

Being in an Apt., I don't have any problems with equipment. My extension ladders are on the roof, step ladders are in the Van. Van is fully shelved and binned. 

You said supplies? I pick supplies up then bring them to the job and use them 100%. I don't keep an inventory of paints, or half gallons of paint, that collect dust for years. The only paints I keep are - ceiling whites, white semi-gloss, primers, joint compound, etc... 

For the volume of work that I do, I have no problems...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I live by that same rule. I sweep, mop, vacuum, clean any windows we mess up. I leave my jobs spotless.
> 
> Hauling away trash and cleaning up messes are not one in the same.
> 
> ...


OK then, glad we got that cleared up.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Technically, around here, you are not permitted to throw out trash from a contracting business with the Regurlar trash. Everybody does it ( a 12 pack under the top row of paint cans ery now and then ought ensure the trash collectors look the other way) but it is definitely illegal. Trash generated from a commercial enterprise should be disposed of separately than your household waste otherwise then the community is subsidizing your business. Big shops got to have a dumpster service, you know, by the book that is. The little guys all do it but technically....they could get turned in, fined whatever. True story.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Oden said:


> Technically, around here, you are not permitted to throw out trash from a contracting business with the Regurlar trash. Everybody does it ( a 12 pack under the top row of paint cans ery now and then ought ensure the trash collectors look the other way) but it is definitely illegal. Trash generated from a commercial enterprise should be disposed of separately than your household waste otherwise then the community is subsidizing your business. Big shops got to have a dumpster service, you know, by the book that is. The little guys all do it but technically....they could get turned in, fined whatever. True story.


 
Depends on where you are,I guess. Here in this fine city, you can put out anything ( and any amount) in a black bags and it will go away( if they can lift it). That why I pay the big taxes


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Here you can put empty paint cans into your bin. If they still contain any paint it needs to be dried. All our pick-up is automated (trucks have lifts that grab the bins) unless there is a bag that is sitting next to the bin and then the driver has to load it by hand. There is supposed to be an extra charge for that though if you only do it occasionally it never shows up on the bill.

Any paint not left with the client can be taken to one of two locations in town for recycling without charge. We do pay a recycling fee when paint is purchased which is part of a statewide program in Oregon.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I thought garbage from projects always went into ghetto apartment dumpsters on the way home...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I thought garbage from projects always went into ghetto apartment dumpsters on the way home...


Nice.

For a while, there were dumpsters located at various spots out in the rural part of the county. Our game was to try to toss the garbage bags from our projects into them as we drove by so we didn't have to stop. Like Bullwinkle trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat, that trick never worked.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> Nice.
> 
> For a while, there were dumpsters located at various spots out in the rural part of the county. Our game was to try to toss the garbage bags from our projects into them as we drove by so we didn't have to stop. Like Bullwinkle trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat, that trick never worked.


Did you award points for technique?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Did you award points for technique?


Yes. I always tried for one with the highest level of difficulty: over the truck (our main work truck at the time was a 1967 International Travelall) from the driver's window. I was never even close. We always had to stop, back up, pick up the bags, and carry them to the dumpster. OTOH, our first kitchen table and chairs came from one of those dumpsters.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

If I see a paint chart sitting on a customers table I ask them if they have gotten another estimate already, if they say yes I say we can try to match or beat their price as long as I can look at the estimate and it is a licensed company, so far any written estimate from a legit co we have matched or beat their prices and got the jobs plus we talk and explain the entire process to the customers which helps us sell ourselves.
Trash, I can not throw away painting stuff at all I have a privae trash co and they have very strict rules, I live near a transfer station and usually charge the customer per bag I have to throw away, an average run between gas, fees and time I charge $15.00 per bag.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> If I see a paint chart sitting on a customers table I ask them if they have gotten another estimate already, if they say yes I say we can try to match or beat their price as long as I can look at the estimate and it is a licensed company, so far any written estimate from a legit co we have matched or beat their prices and got the jobs plus we talk and explain the entire process to the customers which helps us sell ourselves.
> Trash, I can not throw away painting stuff at all I have a privae trash co and they have very strict rules, I live near a transfer station and usually charge the customer per bag I have to throw away, an average run between gas, fees and time I charge $15.00 per bag.


So you're saying you *only* do that if you see a competitor's paint chart sitting there? Or is this standard practice regardless? I don't think I've ever seen another outfit's chart or fan deck while bidding though I know for certain they've gotten other bids. I personally would never bid that way nor would I ever hire anyone who would. I bid my jobs on what I will do for the client - not what my competition will do.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> So you're saying you *only* do that if you see a competitor's paint chart sitting there? Or is this standard practice regardless? I don't think I've ever seen another outfit's chart or fan deck while bidding though I know for certain they've gotten other bids. I personally would never bid that way nor would I ever hire anyone who would. I bid my jobs on what I will do for the client - not what my competition will do.


We matched another company's price...once. It was in 1982 and we haven't forgotten the experience.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Seriously, in what other line of construction would you have some one come in and say they'll try to match or beat a competitors bid if they can see it? Electricians? Plumbers? Roofers? Two professions come readily to mind that do this: insurance and car salesman. Need I say more?

We're getting bids for an addition we plan on starting this next spring. If anyone ever said that to me they'd be off my list in a second. In fact, I'd ask them to leave and forget about even bidding. 

Perhaps I sound a little heated about this but it is one of the few things business-wise that sends me over the edge. IMO if you can't have faith in your own processes and expertise and put together a knowledgeable and competitive proposal as a result, then you should get out of the business.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

researchhound said:


> Seriously, in what other line of construction would you have some one come in and say they'll try to match or beat a competitors bid if they can see it? Electricians? Plumbers? Roofers? Two professions come readily to mind that do this: insurance and car salesman. Need I say more?
> 
> We're getting bids for an addition we plan on starting this next spring. If anyone ever said that to me they'd be off my list in a second. In fact, I'd ask them to leave and forget about even bidding.
> 
> Perhaps I sound a little heated about this but it is one of the few things business-wise that sends me over the edge. *IMO if you can't have faith in your own processes and expertise and put together a knowledgeable and competitive proposal as a result, then you should get out of the business.*


A large majority of customers, are going to go with one of the lower bids.
I don't believe this painter stated that he can beat ANY bid. However, he stated that he is able to beat or match most "licensed painting contractors bids" and get the job.

Now if you are the type of guy, to ask a contractor to leave your home, and not except his bid, if he told you he was willing to match or beat the others contractors bids, *that is just you*. Most customers are programmed to the mindset of, "get the best deal"! I am not saying all people, but most!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Now if you are the type of guy, to ask a contractor to leave your home, and not except his bid, if he told you he was willing to match or beat the others contractors bids, *that is just you*. Most customers are programmed to the mindset of, "get the best deal"! I am not saying all people, but most!


If I had a contractor who made that offer, I'd do the same thing. To me, that's a clear indication that he is probably a total novice, one has no clue what his price should be. If he's that ignorant in one aspect of his business, I'd have to assume that he's that ignorant in other aspects as well. The other possibility is that he's a bottom feeder who will cut corners wherever he can in order to make as much from the job as possible. These are not the sort of contractors we're looking for.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

In this area there are tons of painting contractors still not working a full week, or not properly licensed my old boss has not done much because her prices were to high, We have so many un licensed painting contractors around here they usually beat my prices, I want to work not sit at home and say I own a painting company but can't work because I was a few hundred buck higher than the next guy. Our quality is the same no matter if it's a low ball bid or high bid. I have said I would beat a price only to have some one that is not LICENSED beat me out of the park and they got the job and hack it up. I spend time with the customers and go over details, and when I say beat the price some times it is by $50.00 or $100.00, I can live with that loss of short money, I will not beat any ones price by a large margin.
Like ExcaliburPainting said most people will go with the lowest bids. We landed a 15k sqft house buy beating the price by $500 to me it's well worth it in fact we got a lot more work from them because of this. Contractors as we all know will beat us up price wise, they want low ball bids. We make money and are booked up through December into January, like I said if I loose a hundred bucks I guess I don't eat steak during that job.

Be honest would you rather stay home or under bid someone by a few bucks to get a job?


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

sorry double posted.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> In this area there are tons of painting contractors still not working a full week, or not properly licensed my old boss has not done much because her prices were to high, We have so many un licensed painting contractors around here they usually beat my prices,* I want to work not sit at home and say I own a painting company but can't work because I was a few hundred buck higher than the next guy.* Our quality is the same no matter if it's a low ball bid or high bid. I have said I would beat a price only to have some one that is not LICENSED beat me out of the park and they got the job and hack it up. I spend time with the customers and go over details, and when I say beat the price some times it is by $50.00 or $100.00, I can live with that loss of short money, I will not beat any ones price by a large margin.
> *Like ExcaliburPainting said most people will go with the lowest bids.* We landed a 15k sqft house buy beating the price by $500 to me it's well worth it in fact we got a lot more work from them because of this. Contractors as we all know will beat us up price wise, they want low ball bids. We make money and are booked up through December into January, like I said if I loose a hundred bucks I guess I don't eat steak during that job.
> 
> *Be honest would you rather stay home or under bid someone by a few bucks to get a job?*


Thanks to this forum, I was under the false belief, that I should charge more money on jobs, so I listen and I did exactly as you said, "sat home a few weeks"! 

I had a nice office job I bid on in September for $4,500. Needless to say, I didn't get the contract and a few other jobs as well and I wound up siting home. In this case, if I would have asked to see the bids, maybe I would have got the job at $3,800. 

BTW - cdpainting, if we agree with one another too often, some of the guys here may think that we are the same person, with different screen names. Yes, I know, its a strange preconceived notion. Some strange claims have been made by a few guys here regarding my identity... 

Would you happen to be from Philly?


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I here you. I was charging more but sat home way to much, this economy is still in the tanks and I hate sitting home I get into trouble this way lol. I know in my mind what I want to charge but what are people really willing to pay is the real question. We have been working 7 days a week for the last year and a half (a few select days or weekends off not many) because we try to beat other estimates, how many of you others can say that. I know i'm new to this forum so some might say i'm full of crap with this statement, look at my facebook and website, pics speak louder than words.
I live in Massachusetts, I have a hard enough keeping up with myself let alone taking on another identity lol.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Sacrifice a couple hundred to make 10k-15k on a certain job is worth it to me.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

If you're working 7 days a week, I'd say you were in a great position to make more and work a little less...


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

It has nothing to do with agreeing with each other, it has everything to do with writing styles, personality, and general disposition. Plus not-so coincidental emails sent back channel after specific events also make things very obvious to those who are observant.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

BrushJockey said:


> If you're working 7 days a week, I'd say you were in a great position to make more and work a little less...


Myself I would much rather work 7 days a week with a few days off here and there I have been this way since I was 15 yrs old. I don't drink or do drugs so no need to hit the bar every weekend and spend money on that stuff.
Besides working 7 days a week doesn't really mean I can charge more if I do then I sit home instead of working, we all know this can be a cut throat business. Work hard retire early is my plan.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> In this area there are tons of painting contractors still not working a full week, or not properly licensed my old boss has not done much because her prices were to high, We have so many un licensed painting contractors around here they usually beat my prices, I want to work not sit at home and say I own a painting company but can't work because I was a few hundred buck higher than the next guy. Our quality is the same no matter if it's a low ball bid or high bid. I have said I would beat a price only to have some one that is not LICENSED beat me out of the park and they got the job and hack it up. I spend time with the customers and go over details, and when I say beat the price some times it is by $50.00 or $100.00, I can live with that loss of short money, I will not beat any ones price by a large margin.
> Like ExcaliburPainting said most people will go with the lowest bids. We landed a 15k sqft house buy beating the price by $500 to me it's well worth it in fact we got a lot more work from them because of this. Contractors as we all know will beat us up price wise, they want low ball bids. We make money and are booked up through December into January, like I said if I loose a hundred bucks I guess I don't eat steak during that job.
> 
> Be honest would you rather stay home or under bid someone by a few bucks to get a job?


So you're at the mercy of the next guy who comes along and offers to beat your price...and so it goes. The strategy may work...but only in the short run. It broad terms, it's called "the race to the bottom."


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> Myself I would much rather work 7 days a week with a few days off here and there I have been this way since I was 15 yrs old. I don't drink or do drugs so no need to hit the bar every weekend and spend money on that stuff.
> Besides working 7 days a week doesn't really mean I can charge more if I do then I sit home instead of working, we all know this can be a cut throat business. Work hard retire early is my plan.


You sound like a good guy (except the bidding thing). Remember, the goal should be to work to live not the other way around. Eventually (hopefully) you'll have more important things in your life than working 7 days a week. Building a solid business now on sound practices which you can actually sustain will pay off in the long haul. 

Gough and I have both been in this business awhile and I know I've seen plenty of outfits come and go (as I imagine he has). The ones that last don't take short cuts.

That's all.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

RaleighPainter said:


> I always clean up MY jobsite, to think I would leave $1400.00 worth of promar 200 paint cans at someone's home is obsurd.
> 
> Yes, call me crazy but if we remove wallpaper, we bag it and take it with us.


 Leaving 1400.00 worth of promar 200 on the walls of a customers home is absurd!:blink:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

researchhound said:


> You sound like a good guy (except the bidding thing). Remember, the goal should be to work to live not the other way around. Eventually (hopefully) you'll have more important things in your life than working 7 days a week. Building a solid business now on sound practices which you can actually sustain will pay off in the long haul.
> 
> Gough and I have both been in this business awhile and I know I've seen plenty of outfits come and go (as I imagine he has). The ones that last don't take short cuts.
> 
> That's all.


Thank you researchhound I think i'm a nice guy myself, I spent my summers on my Uncle Conrads dairy farm in Maine from the age of 6-15 yrs old we worked 7 days a week (yes this was many many years ago some time around the discovery of dirt lol) and I have always had that in the back of my mind, if I am not working I feel like I am doing some thing wrong. I do have my toys I use when I need to get away from the working life, atv, off road jeep, boat, but I get bored way to easy and working 7 days a week to me is normal. I do plan on retiring in 10-15 yrs and will enjoy my free time then. Plus my family grew up piss poor broke and I don't want to be like my elders and working until the day I die.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

mudbone said:


> Leaving 1400.00 worth of promar 200 on the walls of a customers home is absurd!:blink:


wow maybe a few color changes lol god knows we have all had our share.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

how big is the house or how much over cost are you paying for promar zero?

Just spec'd promar zero for a 14k sf deal and it's only about double your 1400...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> how big is the house or how much over cost are you paying for promar zero?
> 
> Just spec'd promar zero for a 14k sf deal and it's only about double your 1400...


TJ, you must be figuring it at 350-400 ft^^2/gal. If you "mist" that puppy you can get 800!:jester:

I've had empty 5's taken from our jobs by other contractors who were trying to convince homeowners and building inspectors that they'd applied sufficient material.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Gough said:


> TJ, you must be figuring it at 350-400 ft^^2/gal. If you "mist" that puppy you can get 800!:jester:
> 
> I've had empty 5's taken from our jobs by other contractors who were trying to convince homeowners and building inspectors that they'd applied sufficient material.


I figured a spread rate of 250-275/gal, it's going to be all orange peel and knockdown texture.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I figured a spread rate of 250-275/gal, it's going to be all orange peel and knockdown texture.


if its zero, bump that number closer to 400. on second 430-450. I just did the math on a commercial spot we did. 10k of walls, straight rolling. orange peel. My math was actually obscene. The numbers were higher than what I just indicated, I dont want to be nazi'ed by the non-believers. 

I also primed it in zero flat. The nicest furthest spreading primer I have ever used. 361 sq ft per gallon over raw orange peel.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I figured a spread rate of 250-275/gal, it's going to be all orange peel and knockdown texture.


Since that's what all the GWB is around here, I always figure it at 250 as well.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I figured a spread rate of 250-275/gal, it's going to be all orange peel and knockdown texture.


Dont forget to sand the orange peel textured walls :whistling2: LMFAO


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Hey guys, this is the outcome of my estimate!
An email from the customer (name withheld).

Customer writes: "I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your coming out and giving us an estimate for the painting. I believe you would do a very good job also. I have made the decision to go with another company though. 

Thank you very much."

   :no:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

That's a message no one ever likes to get.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Hey guys, this is the outcome of my estimate!
> An email from the customer (name withheld).
> 
> Customer writes: "I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your coming out and giving us an estimate for the painting. I believe you would do a very good job also. I have made the decision to go with another company though.
> ...


It happens AJ.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Maybe your guitar solo turned them off?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I actually like getting that better than nothing- at least you are not thinking you need to save time for it. 
I always answer those with a thank you for letting me know, and next time please give me another shot- yada yada..


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## george p (Nov 5, 2012)

damn i can't believe i read the whole thing


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

I found this chart on the table of my client, should I worry???


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MonPeintre.ca said:


> I found this chart on the table of my client, should I worry???


Only if yours isn't #1,2, or 3. 

Having had several rounds of kidney stones as a result of NOT staying hydrated, that is actually important stuff. Not sure that you need to carry a chart, though, but the idea is sound.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Maybe they liked the colors (#3 SW6913 Barely Hydrated Pee)?


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm with BJ on that....nice to know either way.


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