# Bleeding on cabinet doors...



## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

I cannot for the life of me get past this issue. After the topcoat sets for 24hrs there are always Brown spots, which I assume or tannins from the wood leeching, that bleed through no matter the final color.

My process is as follows:
-Clean/de gloss with acetone and 0 steel wool or heavy duty striping sponge
-scuff with 200 grit
-clean and prime with Zinnser BIN shellac x2 (scuff with 0000 steel wool between)
-polish with 400 grit
-top coat with ChemCraft (aqua set or uniclear mostly) x2 (scuff with 0000 between)

I can’t figure this out and when it happens I spot prime with rattle can BIN, then re coat, though, often times this has to be repeated up to 4 times to eliminate it.

Advice appreciated.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

What is the wood your are coating? Dry time of BIN before sanding and topcoats?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Water + steel wool residue = rust


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I believe I have seen the same thing. The brown spots are quite round and about the size of a pencil eraser? I have not had a lot of them but notice them most in areas where grease or wax would collect or spatter. I fixed it by prepping more aggressively, degreasing better and putting on BIN little heavier in these areas. I use GF White Poly 3 coats as my topcoat no clear. I would also get the steel wool out of the equation as @Redux 
suggested. If you can post a pic.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

^^ Another call to drop the steel wool (even if that doesn't turn out to be it).


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

I personally have had some very greasy kitchens.
I suggest super hot water, Dawn dishwashing liquid and 3m scour pads.
Don't use steel wool or acetone.
I also use Bins on all my cabinet jobs and rarely have any bleed. Dawn and hot water works better than the 1000 other methods suggested on this blog site.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Zoomer said:


> I personally have had some very greasy kitchens.
> I suggest super hot water, Dawn dishwashing liquid and 3m scour pads.
> Don't use steel wool or acetone.
> I also use Bins on all my cabinet jobs and rarely have any bleed. Dawn and hot water works better than the 1000 other methods suggested on this blog site.



I'm always wary of dawn, I can never seem to get it 100% rinsed. I prefer a straight detergent like dirtex.


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

MikeCalifornia said:


> What is the wood your are coating? Dry time of BIN before sanding and topcoats?


2 hours between same product- 12 between primer and topcoat


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Zoomer said:
> 
> 
> > I personally have had some very greasy kitchens.
> ...


 Recently we did a job for some folks from India,
Super greasy cabinets, ceilings and walls from their high heat and oil cooking everyday.
Not a single spot of bleed through after washing down with Dawn, let dry, sand with 150-180 grit sandpaper, tack, vacum, spray Bins, let dry at least 2 hours, sand 220 grit, tack, vacum, spray 1st coat, let dry, sand 400 grit, tack vacum, spray final coat.
Not a single bleed through.


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Redux said:


> Water + steel wool residue = rust


I recently added the steel wool on my list 2 projects. I used to just wipe with a rag and acetone, then sand. I switched that to scrubbing, deep cleaning, and deglossing with acetone + 3M graded stripping sponges, because the problem persisted. I’m almost certain it isn’t the problem because I am nitpicky with any small particles that may be in the finish coat, and I just tried them instead of 3M pads to up the ante a bit.


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Zoomer said:


> cocomonkeynuts said:
> 
> 
> > Zoomer said:
> ...




How long does it take to dry after washing with dawn? I tried it once and a few doors had residue, and few bubbled through the primer with moisture being trapped.

And when I say “clean”, between/before coats, I mean tack and vacuum, just to clear that up! The


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Zoomer said:


> I personally have had some very greasy kitchens.
> I suggest super hot water, Dawn dishwashing liquid and 3m scour pads.
> Don't use steel wool or acetone.
> I also use Bins on all my cabinet jobs and rarely have any bleed. Dawn and hot water works better than the 1000 other methods suggested on this blog site.


Why no acetone? Just curious, I’ve been wary of using water and soap or a degreased before the shellac primer for residue or moisture. Acetone cuts both of those and dries quick.


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Tprice2193 said:


> I believe I have seen the same thing. The brown spots are quite round and about the size of a pencil eraser? I have not had a lot of them but notice them most in areas where grease or wax would collect or spatter. I fixed it by prepping more aggressively, degreasing better and putting on BIN little heavier in these areas. I use GF White Poly 3 coats as my topcoat no clear. I would also get the steel wool out of the equation as @Redux
> suggested. If you can post a pic.



Exactly. More often in the bevels and intricate trims or around the handles. Around the handles I assume it’s oil or grease. Either way that’s what made me start using 3M sponges or steel wool to clean them, to get in those books and crannies more aggressively.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I have it happen multiple time mainly on very dirty oak cabinets. The spots don't show through the bin but they come through on the first finish coat. Spot prime those spots with coverstain and the problem is solved. You can keep hitting them with Bin until you're blue in the face and they keep coming through. Coverstain or probably another oil primer does the trick. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

BROWNO143 said:


> I recently added the steel wool on my list 2 projects. I used to just wipe with a rag and acetone, then sand. I switched that to scrubbing, deep cleaning, and deglossing with acetone + 3M graded stripping sponges, because the problem persisted. I’m almost certain it isn’t the problem because I am nitpicky with any small particles that may be in the finish coat, and I just tried them instead of 3M pads to up the ante a bit.


Chemcraft’s tds states that “Uniclear must not be sanded with steel wool between the coats”. The Aquaset tds states that “contact with metal surfaces should be avoided”. 

The reason is that the steel wool residue becomes embedded in the film. Vacuuming and tacking won’t remove it. When you coat over the residue it will turn a brown to bluish gray color. The stains may take hours before they develop and will resemble bleeding. The residue often isn’t visible to the eye.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

BROWNO143 said:


> Zoomer said:
> 
> 
> > I personally have had some very greasy kitchens.
> ...


Don't forget to thoroughly sand after doors are dry. No residue left behind after sanding.


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Redux said:


> BROWNO143 said:
> 
> 
> > I recently added the steel wool on my list 2 projects. I used to just wipe with a rag and acetone, then sand. I switched that to scrubbing, deep cleaning, and deglossing with acetone + 3M graded stripping sponges, because the problem persisted. I’m almost certain it isn’t the problem because I am nitpicky with any small particles that may be in the finish coat, and I just tried them instead of 3M pads to up the ante a bit.
> ...



Wow, super helpful thankyou!


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I have it happen multiple time mainly on very dirty oak cabinets. The spots don't show through the bin but they come through on the first finish coat. Spot prime those spots with coverstain and the problem is solved. You can keep hitting them with Bin until you're blue in the face and they keep coming through. Coverstain or probably another oil primer does the trick.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


Thankyou!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I use the eco tsp and a drop of Dawn, plus 3M scrubbys. Also a toothbush or stiff scrubby helps for the detailed area's..Acetone drys too fast!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

BROWNO143 said:


> Wow, super helpful thankyou!


You’re welcome.
Maybe post a photo if you’re able.

One other unrelated reason not to use 0000 steel wool between coats, especially with WB finishes, is that you’re transferring oil from the steel wool to the substrate which can negatively impact adhesion and result in intercoat failure. Chemcraft’s WB finishes are extremely sensitive to oils.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I started with Dawn and maroon pads when I started refinishing cabinets in 2005. In 2014 someone on here recommended Dirtex and I used it for a couple jobs and switched back to Dawn. No problems with Dirtex but the Dawn seems like it removes more buildup. Acetone after the rinse will help the sustrate dry but you are talking extremely volatile and flammable, a lot worse than BIN. One job in particular I was seeing the same problem as @Rbriggs82 was referring to. Tried the coverstain which he recommended and by gosh it worked. It will get you out of a bind but it is not a substitute for good prep.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Some aniline dyes can bleed through multiple coats of BIN and WB finishes. Blood red aniline dyes are notorious for bleeding if the existing film is breached when prepping. I posted a story a while back about a mahogany piano I refinished in a white, having it go pink on me due to bleeding.

I had to strip it down and wash it with concentrated chlorine bleach to remove all traces of the dye. What a nightmare of a project that was.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Zoomer said:


> Recently we did a job for some folks from India,
> Super greasy cabinets, ceilings and walls from their high heat and oil cooking everyday.
> Not a single spot of bleed through after washing down with Dawn, let dry, sand with 150-180 grit sandpaper, tack, vacum, spray Bins, let dry at least 2 hours, sand 220 grit, tack, vacum, spray 1st coat, let dry, sand 400 grit, tack vacum, spray final coat.
> Not a single bleed through.



What kind of spray rack is that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Ramus8T said:


> What kind of spray rack is that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Door rack painter, best racks I've ever used. 

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> Some aniline dyes can bleed through multiple coats of BIN and WB finishes. Blood red aniline dyes are notorious for bleeding if the existing film is breached when prepping. I posted a story a while back about a mahogany piano I refinished in a white, having it go pink on me due to bleeding.
> 
> I had to strip it down and wash it with concentrated chlorine bleach to remove all traces of the dye. What a nightmare of a project that was.


I cant even imagine how long that must have taken. OMFG. What did you use as a top coat btw? Stand up or grand?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I cant even imagine how long that must have taken. OMFG. What did you use as a top coat btw? Stand up or grand?


I used CAB lacquer. It was an early spinet upright. I’ve done a grand as well. I pretty much disassembled everything, having re-felted and refinished the brass as well. The piano turned from white to a consistent pink color while in process. I then experimented with the top, utilizing BIN. The red bled through a half dozen coats of BIN. Nothing I threw at it would lock it in.

Being it happened before the invention of the World Wide Web, with knowledge bases being scarce, I ended up contacting an old school German piano refinisher who educated me on the blood red mahogany dyes utilized during the early part of the 20th century, and taught me how to de-color the dyes with chlorine bleach. After stripping and de-coloring the dye, it worked out great. 

I’ve only encountered a similar dye from that period one other time. There’s mention on the GF website about the early dyes and bleeding. Eric Reason also makes mention in one of his vids about the red dyes bleeding. Some of the more modern alcohol soluble dyes used on cabinets can bleed through BIN when refinishing. Oil soluble dyes can bleed through oil based primers, and water soluble dyes can bleed through WB coatings when refinishing as well. They tend to bleed at pores when not disturbing the existing film, the bleeding being about the size of a pencil eraser that TPrice mentioned. 

Although the use of steel wool is a red flag, I wouldn’t rule out dye being the culprit as per the original post @ this thread.


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## Ramus8T (Jan 14, 2020)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Door rack painter, best racks I've ever used.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk



Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BROWNO143 (Feb 24, 2020)

Redux said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > I cant even imagine how long that must have taken. OMFG. What did you use as a top coat btw? Stand up or grand?
> ...



The problem has been persistent for a while. I’ve only used steel wool on 2 projects, where I generally use 3M stripping pads, and haven’t had any issue that’s explicitly attributed to the use of steel wool. I wish I had photos, it’s got to be grease that the acetone isn’t cutting through. When I scrape it it takes it back to the wood/original finish.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Ramus8T said:


> Zoomer said:
> 
> 
> > Recently we did a job for some folks from India,
> ...


DoorRackPainter.com.
If you order please tell Jake the owner that Monte from Denver sent you.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PX primer or vinyl lacquer primer also seals bleed through very well. I sprayed some blond Oak windows with zero bleed through, and it dries super quick so you can do multiple coats if necessary.


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## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Somebody needs to change the subject line of this thread. Every time I see it I think someone's been injured...


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