# Benefits of priming a hard color change (interior)



## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

Just wondering some points on why to use a primer instead of just applying your normal wall/trim paint 3/4 times on hard color changes. I have a bedroom to do that has Navy blue trim, which I don't see covering in 2 coats regardless of what I do since it's going white. Rep says latex primer before trim paint, but will this really help the problem in any way? What about similar scenario for walls.

Thanks guys


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Many reasons to Prime instead of a bunch of topcoats. For the trim conversion back to white. The topcoat will finish nicer over the primer and you won't use as much trim paint. Should def eliminate thinking of a 4th coat as well. Color change on walls that require a primer I like to get the primer in a interior/exterior product. I use sw multi purpose. That way you can always save it and use it exterior if you need it as well. Some have said get a flat paint in the same color. I think that sucks for coverage and painting over a flat wall paint will suck up your finish. 


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I have not done tried this yet, but my Ben Moore store manager told me a lot of guys use a cheap flat paint for the fisrt coat in the same color as the finish if they feel that 2 coats will not cover. Since flats have more tint in them they hide beter. By doing this they avoid a third coat. 

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Only time I will prime walls is when going over a dark color that has a satin or higher sheen, with a lighter color.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

jr.sr. painting said:


> Many reasons to Prime instead of a bunch of topcoats. For the trim conversion back to white. The topcoat will finish nicer over the primer and you won't use as much trim paint. Should def eliminate thinking of a 4th coat as well. Color change on walls that require a primer I like to get the primer in a interior/exterior product. I use sw multi purpose. That way you can always save it and use it exterior if you need it as well. Some have said get a flat paint in the same color. I think that sucks for coverage and painting over a flat wall paint will suck up your finish.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's probably what I'd get. I'm using Solo for walls and trim so I don't know if that makes a difference as I'm not too concerned in the amount of paint used, one gallon for trim in a bedroom goes far. I quoted for the extra primer already just thinking if it is necessary instead of just getting only solo for simplicity.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I have not done tried this yet, but my Ben Moore store manager told me a lot of guys use a cheap flat paint for the fisrt coat in the same color as the finish if they feel that 2 coats will not cover. Since flats have more tint in them they hide beter. By doing this they avoid a third coat.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


Flat is a good basecoat, because its porous in a sense, and colors sort of sink into it, whereas say a semigloss, the colors slide around. When I did tracts, we would do the front door by hand, and we would brush a first coat of whatever color in flat first, and a second color in the semigloss. This was really only efficient because there were only three door colors for the whole tract, so, the paint would be bought by the five. For a repaint where you're only doing one door, its not worth it to buy a quart of flat and a quart of semi just to make it cover better.

For walls, if I were to do a inside of a large house in a single color where I know it would take at least three coats, I would definitely get a flat version of the color to use as a first coat. It does help the coverage, and it'll save a few bucks on your first coat. For one room, its not worth the bother, for sure.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

How about just using a primer that has less of a sheen too it rather than a flat paint? For instance 200 primer or one I just used for he first time and thought it was really nice ppg 6-2. 


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

i use the cheap flat paint trick pretty often, it works just fine. One exception is when the surface (usually drywall) is not sealed. I prefer primer to flat undercoat just because primer levels off and evens out porous surfaces much better than flat paint. downside is cost, good primer is double the price of cheap flat. Just have to gauge the situation you're in, if quality is #1 concern go with primer. If budget is concern you can do a just fine job with $50 per 5gallon flat as a primer substitute, (no one will know the difference). Just curious.. how much does solo cost per gal? it isn't popular in my market..


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

unless the surface you are painting over has a sheen or is stained, you shouldn't really need to use a primer. Primers usually have less pigment than paints so they really don't hide as well. Unless it is a specific "block-out" or "high hiding" primer anyway. If the surface has a sheen a primer will usually adhere better. Kind of depends on what primer and what paint you are using.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Pete Martin the Painter said:


> I have not done tried this yet, but my Ben Moore store manager told me a lot of guys use a cheap flat paint for the fisrt coat in the same color as the finish if they feel that 2 coats will not cover. Since flats have more tint in them they hide beter. By doing this they avoid a third coat.
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk


The trick is that flats have more solids in them then a gloss paint. However, a good multipurpose primer is better still, as they are generally quick drying and have other stain blocking additives.
One should always have a can of that in their Truck anyhow. If it's over a really dark blue or gawd forbid anything in the reds, I would not mess around and be sure to use primer first..
Or just use a product like BM Aura. $70/gal but covers like crazy.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jr.sr. painting said:


> How about just using a primer that has less of a sheen too it rather than a flat paint? For instance 200 primer or one I just used for he first time and thought it was really nice ppg 6-2.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because you cant get tint a primer to the exact color, and even if you could, it wont hide anywhere near as good as a flat topcoat. Using a primer makes no sense for hiding purposes. If the walls are painted white, and they are going bright red, use a bright red flat first (or a grayscale, but thats another conversation) . Theres no primer that would help that situation.

Let me note, that I am assuming this is a repaint situation, and not fresh drywall, so using a basic drywall sealer/primer like 6-2 isnt really ideal anyway.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Whenever I get primers tinted they do 75% formula and it gets really close. I still don't like the idea of a cheap flat as a base for my topcoat. I can get multi purpose for $16/gallon. That's plenty low enough for me. In the past it was always 023 fresh start. Both are available in deep base so that has all my color needs covered.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

Just to make sure I'm on the same page about the flat paint trick. Using SW paint as reference, you go and buy qualicote in flat and same color, use that for first coat, and then get your main paint say duration or cashmere w/e in same color and do second. Is that where you finish? I feel like you aren't really completing your final coat this way for a proper finish


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I think you guys are mistaking the OP. He's trying to paint white over a dark blue..
So you think a flat ceiling paint would be a better stain blocker than say cover stain or the likes?

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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I like cover stain type primers for deep color changes and it has the advantage of blocking any stains that might bleed through, primes hole fills and patch work. IMHO, it is the surest guarantee of a nice finish.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I think you guys are mistaking the OP. He's trying to paint white over a dark blue..
> So you think a flat ceiling paint would be a better stain blocker than say cover stain or the likes?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Yes, but I wouldnt go THAT cheap with it. If I were to go that routte, I would use a pm 200 flat. Also, whats this 'blocking stains' stuff? What stains?? All it needs to do is cover a color. But, if it were me, I would probably just put three coats of good paint on the sheen they want. 

Of course, he was also referring to trim paint, and I would NOT use a flat for a base coat unless it were raw, and these days, I dont even do that, but back int he tract days, we primed trim with the flat wall paint, and it worked great.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

BrushPro said:


> Just to make sure I'm on the same page about the flat paint trick. Using SW paint as reference, you go and buy qualicote in flat and same color, use that for first coat, and then get your main paint say duration or cashmere w/e in same color and do second. Is that where you finish? I feel like you aren't really completing your final coat this way for a proper finish


You'd do your cheap flat coat first, (but like I said, I wouldnt go TOO cheap, I'd use pm 200 for a first coat) then two coats of the cashmere or whatever. Its no different than painting over a primer, except you'd be closer to the real color. I dont see why anyone would be afraid to use a flat for a basecoat. Hell, I worked for many companies that used flat paint AS primer on raw texture, and there were never any problems. Spray and backroll one coat of the flat, then spray and backroll one coat of the Sheen on top. I can honestly say it works every bit as good as using a dedicated primer. I dare anyone to give me one good reason why it wouldnt.


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

Woodco said:


> BrushPro said:
> 
> 
> > Just to make sure I'm on the same page about the flat paint trick. Using SW paint as reference, you go and buy qualicote in flat and same color, use that for first coat, and then get your main paint say duration or cashmere w/e in same color and do second. Is that where you finish? I feel like you aren't really completing your final coat this way for a proper finish
> ...


See this makes sense to me for walls. It's not much different than doing a repaint where they used lesser quality paint before and you just put two coats of good stuff on top. I understand now where the advantage is in this and it's more pigment to binder ratio of flat and a solid color match to what your painting. Put your two coats on top and you've got your higher binder vs pigment paint giving durability and washability


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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

Local paint pro said:


> i use the cheap flat paint trick pretty often, it works just fine. One exception is when the surface (usually drywall) is not sealed. I prefer primer to flat undercoat just because primer levels off and evens out porous surfaces much better than flat paint. downside is cost, good primer is double the price of cheap flat. Just have to gauge the situation you're in, if quality is #1 concern go with primer. If budget is concern you can do a just fine job with $50 per 5gallon flat as a primer substitute, (no one will know the difference). Just curious.. how much does solo cost per gal? it isn't popular in my market..


I'm Canadian and don't have much purchasing history yet as I have recently gone on my own, but my price is 27$/gal. Promar200hp is priced at about 35$ and duration like 55$ish for reference. Again I'm a new company


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Yes, but I wouldnt go THAT cheap with it. If I were to go that routte, I would use a pm 200 flat. Also, whats this 'blocking stains' stuff? What stains?? All it needs to do is cover a color. But, if it were me, I would probably just put three coats of good paint on the sheen they want.
> 
> Of course, he was also referring to trim paint, and I would NOT use a flat for a base coat unless it were raw, and these days, I dont even do that, but back int he tract days, we primed trim with the flat wall paint, and it worked great.


By "stain" I mean a very dark colour will tend to "bleed" like crazy through a white top coat. Even with Aura, Ive had to do 3 and 4 coats over top of a dark brown. If you don't stop that dark colour with the first coat it can be a nightmare with your topcoats.
I'd be interested to see how a good quality flat would compare to say 123. 
If you really want to be on the safe side, slap a coat of BIN on there. 

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> By "stain" I mean a very dark colour will tend to "bleed" like crazy through a white top coat. Even with Aura, Ive had to do 3 and 4 coats over top of a dark brown. If you don't stop that dark colour with the first coat it can be a nightmare with your topcoats.
> I'd be interested to see how a good quality flat would compare to say 123.
> If you really want to be on the safe side, slap a coat of BIN on there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


I have never even heard of that in my entire career, and I have never once used a primer going from dark colors to light, and have never had any kind of bleed through due to color.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > By "stain" I mean a very dark colour will tend to "bleed" like crazy through a white top coat. Even with Aura, Ive had to do 3 and 4 coats over top of a dark brown. If you don't stop that dark colour with the first coat it can be a nightmare with your topcoats.
> ...


I have seen it with certain colors like gold hue to a clean white. 2 coats of aura and still needing a third.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Woodco said:


> Of course, he was also referring to trim paint, and I would NOT use a flat for a base coat unless it were raw, and these days, I dont even do that, but back int he tract days, we primed trim with the flat wall paint, and it worked great.



Was that trim wood? I would think there would be tannin bleed. I always used shellac to prime raw wood.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> I have never even heard of that in my entire career, and I have never once used a primer going from dark colors to light, and have never had any kind of bleed through due to color.


You must be using some darn good paint. Ever try painting over a dark brown or red. ? Brutal.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jennifertemple said:


> Was that trim wood? I would think there would be tannin bleed. I always used shellac to prime raw wood.


Preprimed trim. We caulked and puttied, then sprayed it with the same flat that was on the walls (KM 550, which was a pretty good flat, I will say) When that dried, we sanded it, then sprayed the semigloss version of that color, and that was that. Then we'd cut the flat paint with water really thin, and run a block brush down the sides of the jambs to take the overspray back to flat. It matched and touched up perfectly, and the trim was hard as a rock. We were using higher end paints, thats why we got away with single coating. Also, when we painted the walls, we'd first hit the kitchen bath and laundry with the wall flat as a primer, and after we sprayed the rest of the house, get into the semigloss version, and spray it on top of that in the wet areas. It was a really good, efficient system (for a low end paint job anyway.) We didnt actually prime a damn thing. And using the wall paint as a primer, meant we didnt have to mask much either. We just feathered it out a little around the jambs and sills. That 550 flat worked just as good as a latex undercoater. 

The only reason I use a dedicated primer these days, is for show, (and it saves a few bucks.)


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Woodco said:


> I have never even heard of that in my entire career, and I have never once used a primer going from dark colors to light, and have never had any kind of bleed through due to color.


I have to say I have never seen a bleed through of an existing color through a new paint coat. Sure, a darker color may show through a lighter one, but not in the way something like tannin will rise to the surface - which is what I take to be true bleed through. But maybe I’ve just been lucky.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Even if that DID happen, it would be more prudent to spot prime those spots IF they happen, rather than always use a stain blocking primer on repaints.


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## KooLayed369 (Jan 8, 2018)

You could also use the new EVO paints! They have a line specifically for one coat repaints in any color. It is pricey though.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

KooLayed369 said:


> You could also use the new EVO paints! They have a line specifically for one coat repaints in any color. It is pricey though.


Ahh. The old 1 coat coverage Schtick .. lol

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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

KooLayed369 said:


> You could also use the new EVO paints! They have a line specifically for one coat repaints in any color. It is pricey though.



I never believe those promises! One coat under what conditions??! :vs_smirk:


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## Spongebob (Jan 9, 2019)

Benefits of priming, first off bond, but even that can fail if you don't scuff first, but covering over a color? Don't complicate it, apply a primer close to your desired color then top coat, mostly you prime for bond, but you can do without if you sand your millwork good enough, primer is just insurance mostly.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Spongebob said:


> Benefits of priming, first off bond, but even that can fail if you don't scuff first, but covering over a color? Don't complicate it, apply a primer close to your desired color then top coat, mostly you prime for bond, but you can do without if you sand your millwork good enough, primer is just insurance mostly.


I dunno. I totally disagree. I challenge anyone to try painting a white semi gloss over neon orange. That orange is gonna keep coming through 3 coats later garunteed.. 

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I dunno. I totally disagree. I challenge anyone to try painting a white semi gloss over neon orange. That orange is gonna keep coming through 3 coats later garunteed..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Yeah, that would be a situation where a primer coat is warranted. 

I have a complete interior job coming up in February where the three bathrooms are all done in intense colors (pink, green, and purple - almost all verging on neon bright), with satin sheens. All three rooms were bid for a primer coat. The rest of the house will be fine without one.


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

I see the value priming is necessary for color change when using high end paint. you or the customer save $$$ on high end paint, I see no value for contractor grade paint. putting three coats of ultra spec vs one coat of primer and two coats of ultra spec, how much can you save on paint? you are not saving on labor as you still apply three coats.

painting white over any color except white is always three coats at minimum, painting gray over any color, red, dark brown, is two coats always


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

stl911 said:


> I see the value priming is necessary for color change when using high end paint. you or the customer save $$$ on high end paint, I see no value for contractor grade paint. putting three coats of ultra spec vs one coat of primer and two coats of ultra spec, how much can you save on paint? you are not saving on labor as you still apply three coats.
> 
> painting white over any color except white is always three coats at minimum, painting gray over any color, red, dark brown, is two coats always


Still not buying it. 3 coats of white ultra spec is not going to cover a dark colour. No way ..

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## BrushPro (Nov 15, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> stl911 said:
> 
> 
> > I see the value priming is necessary for color change when using high end paint. you or the customer save $$$ on high end paint, I see no value for contractor grade paint. putting three coats of ultra spec vs one coat of primer and two coats of ultra spec, how much can you save on paint? you are not saving on labor as you still apply three coats.
> ...


Lol this thread shows I'm not crazy for my question with the answers


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Still not buying it. 3 coats of white ultra spec is not going to cover a dark colour. No way ..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


So you think a primer, then two coats of ultraspec would cover any better?? I dont understand that. The 2nd worst paint scenario is a dark semigloss, with a white semigloss topcoat. Thats why I would just use a flat white as a first coat. The flat white IS the primer. It covers better than the SG, AND the next coat will cover better on the flat than it would the semigloss. Its a double advantage. Using something that says "primer" on the can isnt gonna do any better. The flat white will have more pigment and more opacity to it than a primer.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Woodco said:


> So you think a primer, then two coats of ultraspec would cover any better?? I dont understand that. The 2nd worst paint scenario is a dark semigloss, with a white semigloss topcoat. Thats why I would just use a flat white as a first coat. The flat white IS the primer. It covers better than the SG, AND the next coat will cover better on the flat than it would the semigloss. Its a double advantage. Using something that says "primer" on the can isnt gonna do any better. The flat white will have more pigment and more opacity to it than a primer.


I'm with ya. I prime for either adhesion or to seal stuff in not for color changes. You're doing it three coats regardless, all you end up with is more things to clean at the end of the day. 

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> So you think a primer, then two coats of ultraspec would cover any better?? I dont understand that. The 2nd worst paint scenario is a dark semigloss, with a white semigloss topcoat. Thats why I would just use a flat white as a first coat. The flat white IS the primer. It covers better than the SG, AND the next coat will cover better on the flat than it would the semigloss. Its a double advantage. Using something that says "primer" on the can isnt gonna do any better. The flat white will have more pigment and more opacity to it than a primer.


I totally agree. A flat paint makes a good first coat for sure. Which is still kind of using a primer I guess, which answers the OPs question, More so than 3 coats of semigloss for sure..
Curious. Would you guys trust this system over a deep red or bright orange though? Wouldn't 123 or Coverstain do a better job? Or am I completely out to lunch here. Haha.

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

123 is pretty thick, so it has better coverage than most primers. If I were to use a primer instead of a flat paint, thats what I would use. Coverstain doesnt hide anything, and it has a slick surface, so colors wont cover quite as good on top of it either.


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

Coverstain for sure but that's a way different route than an acrylic. Not saying I wouldn't do that bc I'm a huge fan of coverstain 


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## mrpaintman (Dec 1, 2017)

not sure many people actually answered your question, but to me the real benefit is cheaper. Primer can get for $10-15 a gallon vs emerald I use at $43. Tint the primer as well so itll help cover the additional topcoat


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## stl911 (Jul 16, 2014)

mrpaintman said:


> not sure many people actually answered your question, but to me the real benefit is cheaper. Primer can get for $10-15 a gallon vs emerald I use at $43. Tint the primer as well so itll help cover the additional topcoat


that's my point, if you quote customer with high end paint, primer makes sense to save paint. but there is no added value to use primer with contractor grade paint for color changes.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stl911 said:


> that's my point, if you quote customer with high end paint, primer makes sense to save paint. but there is no added value to use primer with contractor grade paint for color changes.



1 Coat of 123+2 promar 200 going to hold out more 'bleeding' type color better than 3-4 coat of promar 200. Not even going to pull out the charts for that one, its a fact.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Im still pretty skeptical of these 'bleeding' colors people speak of...


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Im still pretty skeptical of these 'bleeding' colors people speak of...


Why? Question. How many coats of white ultra spec eggshell would someone have to roll on over a candy apple red to make it cover.? I bet 4 to 5 coats before you can't see the red burning through anymore.. 
Maybe bleeding isn't the proper terminology but you know what I mean? However, I wouldn't want to find out so I would probably just do either a coat of flat or 123 or the likes first..

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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Had a near nightmare experience with a hard color change over MLC NC primed cabinets/millwork. The primer/finish is supposed to be top coat compatible with “any” water based or oil based paint given the manufacturer recommended sanding profile. 

A few painters by me discovered the hard way that this wasn’t the case, requiring stripping and refinishing 100’s of linear ft of cabinets which were shop primed white by the fabricator to receive pastel, 3 base, and deep base top coats of Advance, Aura, and alkyd Satin Impervo on site by painters. The finishes chipped easily on wear edges, exposing the white primer/finish. 

One of those unfortunate painters was myself. I did however luck out, the client having payed for the stripping and refinishing ~ 100 linear ft of cabinets, holding the fabricator at fault. 

The other painter I knew wasn’t so lucky, eating the cost of stripping and refinishing several hundred ft of cabinets at an out of pocket exceeding $30k. Since that experience, both companies prime everything whether a hard color change is in order or not. 

The fabricator tried to pin the failure on the use of commercial tack cloths. Funny thing was those same tack cloths didn’t result in failure on anything other than their primed surfaces.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Why? Question. How many coats of white ultra spec eggshell would someone have to roll on over a candy apple red to make it cover.? I bet 4 to 5 coats before you can't see the red burning through anymore..
> Maybe bleeding isn't the proper terminology but you know what I mean? However, I wouldn't want to find out so I would probably just do either a coat of flat or 123 or the likes first..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Yes, I suspect it was the use of the term “bleeding through” rather than simply saying “showing through” that caused the initial skepticism - at least it did for me. To me, bleed through is something totally different from just poor coverage of a lighter color over a darker one with a medium to high sheen.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Well, he originally said he uses a stain blocking primer, for stains that bleed through on dark colors.....

That implies that theres tint or something leaching through the paint and popping out.

Personally, I've never had a white over any color take more than three coats. People keep talking about painting white over bright reds. Well, Its a hell of a lot easier to turn a bright red wall white, than vice versa.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Well, he originally said he uses a stain blocking primer, for stains that bleed through on dark colors.....
> 
> That implies that theres tint or something leaching through the paint and popping out.
> 
> Personally, I've never had a white over any color take more than three coats. People keep talking about painting white over bright reds. Well, Its a hell of a lot easier to turn a bright red wall white, than vice versa.


Just to backup my point. I just finished painting some cabinet boxes which were a pinkish tone . Brush and rolled. 1 coat of White Stix and 4 coats of Advance Simply White. Hoping it looks fine on Monday! I realize it's not technically bleeding, but it's burning through like crazy..

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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Just to backup my point. I just finished painting some cabinet boxes which were a pinkish tone . Brush and rolled. 1 coat of White Stix and 4 coats of Advance Simply White. Hoping it looks fine on Monday! I realize it's not technically bleeding, but it's burning through like crazy..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Wow. A white primer followed by four top coats _should_ cover pretty much anything - regardless of what the original color was or new one is. But I don’t use much Advance so I’m not very familiar with it’s hiding qualities. Guessing the sheens for both were high.

That’s one of the reasons I’m a fan of spraying when possible; you tend to get a more even finish in places where uniform coverage can be somewhat difficult to achieve with a brush/roller - like the interior corners and edges of boxes.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

RH said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > Just to backup my point. I just finished painting some cabinet boxes which were a pinkish tone . Brush and rolled. 1 coat of White Stix and 4 coats of Advance Simply White. Hoping it looks fine on Monday! I realize it's not technically bleeding, but it's burning through like crazy..
> ...


Yep. J could have probably got away with primer plus 3 but I'll sleep better with the 4th quick roll.
I agree on the spraying. I spray all my cabinet doors but still roll the boxes for convenience to client. Plus anyone can do it, mediocre help, girlfriend etc lol. I may consider to start spraying boxes if I can get a good portable hvlp. 
However, my system now is to be at the shop working on doors while my help can be at house handpainting boxes..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Had a near nightmare experience with a hard color change over MLC NC primed cabinets/millwork. The primer/finish is supposed to be top coat compatible with “any” water based or oil based paint given the manufacturer recommended sanding profile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a hard pill to swallow! Ouch. Yes, a tinted primer is always a good idea. I also ditched my tack cloths for a microfiber cloth.. Not worth having any waxy residues around..

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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> That's a hard pill to swallow! Ouch. Yes, a tinted primer is always a good idea. I also ditched my tack cloths for a microfiber cloth.. Not worth having any waxy residues around..
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Ouch is right. Painters often get the blame when it’s really not their fault. 

The primer exhibiting multiple top coat adhesion problems was MLC Production Lacquer Primer W1429. The tech sheet stated...”provides a smooth surface to accept waterborne paint, oil based paint or lacquer topcoats.” 

(I only use commercial tack cloths with brushed alkyd painted finishes, and micro-fiber on everything else.)


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Ouch is right. Painters often get the blame when it’s really not their fault.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Curious. Of the the 3, which one failed the worst? Also, why the spec of the different products??

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## ScottsPainting (Jan 21, 2018)

*Primer for Adhesion*

One additional benefit which I don't know was mentioned is for adhesion. While you should be properly preparing all surfaces prior to repainting, the right primer can offer better adhesion to glossier surfaces than paint alone. Add that in with all the other benefits like less paint usage and better coverage, and it could save you time/money for some jobs.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Curious. Of the the 3, which one failed the worst? Also, why the spec of the different products??
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


All failed equally.

On my project there were flush closet doors and flush medicine cabinet doors dying into drywall (no casings) spec’d out for Aura to match drywall, with balance of cabinetry spec’d out for Alkyd Satin Impervo. 

The 2nd project by the other painting contractor was spec’d out for Advance. 

The specification called for primer by others to be site finished by painting contractor. The specified abrasives by MLC tech rep to achieve required profile for mechanical bond was #180-#320, non-stearated. 

The balance of passage doors provided shop primed by different fabricator with an NC lacquer primer other than MCL didn’t experience any problems. 

I brought up the concerns pre-construction requesting BM FS024 primer tinted to finish colors to accommodate deep base and 3 base finish colors. The fabricator and/or general contractor couldn’t accommodate the request. It wasn’t in the general contractor’s budget to pay for everything to be re-primed. 

I didn’t submit an invoice for the strip/refinish yet the homeowner guesstimated the cost, sending me a check which more than covered my regular hrly rate + materials. 

The other painting contractor on the 2nd project was held liable for the failure and ate $30K+. 

Where does this leave the painter and whose liability is it? 

Should a painting contractor include wording in a contract to indemnify him/her against liability due to finish failure over primer by others?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Yep. J could have probably got away with primer plus 3 but I'll sleep better with the 4th quick roll.
> I agree on the spraying. I spray all my cabinet doors but still roll the boxes for convenience to client. Plus anyone can do it, mediocre help, girlfriend etc lol. I may consider to start spraying boxes if I can get a good portable hvlp.
> However, my system now is to be at the shop working on doors while my help can be at house handpainting boxes..


Consider carefully before investing in a HVLP for on site cabinet work. Most here will attest that HVLPs are not very good for spraying latex enamels - at least without significant thinning which can severely affect the integrity (and coverage ability) of the product. 

Also, overspray from an HVLP will still be present and isn’t much less than an airless equipped with a fflp tip and adjusted at optimum pressure - at least IMO.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

RH said:


> Consider carefully before investing in a HVLP for on site cabinet work. Most here will attest that HVLPs are not very good for spraying latex enamels - at least without significant thinning which can severely affect the integrity (and coverage ability) of the product.
> 
> Also, overspray from an HVLP will still be present and isn’t much less than an airless equipped with a fflp tip and adjusted at optimum pressure - at least IMO.


I'm having good luck with spraying Stix and Advance from my HVLP at the shop with minimal thinning. Maybe 5-10%. However I have an 80 gal. Tank pushing air, plus I use the biggest tip I could buy , a 2.0..Using the 3M accuspray. Getting into tight spots sucks with the HVLP though..
An airless just seems to aggressive, even with the fflp tips for the detailed stuff IMO.

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## The Montana Painter (Dec 2, 2018)

One concern echoed here is sheen. Over flat wall paint you will need 2 coats of topcoat to get the correct sheen. I use a primer ( stick or cover stain )with 1oz white titanium dioxide and tinted close to new color, This helps to insure coverage over darker colors.


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## ScottsPainting (Jan 21, 2018)

agreed


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## MidwestPaintingServices (9 mo ago)

Acknowledged


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

MidwestPaintingServices said:


> Acknowledged


Curious.What have you acknowledged?


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