# Epoxy over Epoxy help please



## oceanwalls

I have been asked to apply Sherwin Williams Pro Industrial High Performance Epoxy over existing latex epoxy. I know I must sand, but one SW person said prime first with 200 primer, another with adhesion primer and yet another said no priming needed. Please let me know what you would do or recommend. I am mainly a wallpaper hanger, and haven't done commercial type painting since the early 90's. Thanks for any input!


Brian


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## BC_Painter

Go visit your rep. He will know best what to do with the particular epoxy you are using.

The epoxies I use, you can't just throw new epoxy over it after 30 days has gone by, you've got to open the substrate to accept the new coating.

Goodluck

BTW you should post an intro so we can get to know you better :thumbsup:


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## BC_Painter

Oh and my epoxies will also melt most other coatings under it, such as certain primers! So be careful!


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## oceanwalls

Which rep do you suggest.. I have talked to three and gotten those three different responses.....


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## BC_Painter

All of the paint dealers I have dealt with have given me an area rep, the "go to" guy that does not work in a store, his job is to make contractors happy, and buying products. This includes knowing the products better than anyone else, and being able to troubleshoot jobsites either befpre a quote, or after something has gone wrong.

This is also the guy I talk to when I want bid pricing on a particular HUGE job :thumbsup:

That's the guy you should talk to


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## TJ Paint

Get the spec page for the epoxy product online. Just google the product. It should list on there the recommended system.


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## oceanwalls

will try to find that go to rep... the sheet does not address applying epoxy over old epoxy...just new surface, I think thats where the one SW person got the idea for 200 primer.. it mentions that for bare sheetrock....


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## WisePainter

Epoxy are not for the timid...my advice is go introduce yourself, and then start asking the tougher questions.
And yes, I am certified to work with epoxies, and why none of the 3 S.W. reps aren't seeking your certifications baffles me...

Failure with epoxy coatings mean possible lawsuits against a company that has more than 130 years experience in the coatings industry.

Wait, aren't you a wallpaper contractor since the early 90's?!?


ffs, good luck and good bye.


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## WisePainter

oceanwalls said:


> will try to find that go to rep... the sheet does not address applying epoxy over old epoxy...just new surface, I think thats where the one SW person got the idea for 200 primer.. it mentions that for bare sheetrock....


lol, yeah, put Pro200 primer over epoxy...

sweet jebus.............


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## BC_Painter

oceanwalls said:


> will try to find that go to rep... the sheet does not address applying epoxy over old epoxy...just new surface, I think thats where the one SW person got the idea for 200 primer.. it mentions that for bare sheetrock....


Sometimes the in store help amazes me....


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## TJ Paint

what type of surface is this?


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## TJ Paint

you're going to have to sand or etch the old epoxy and make sure its clean of course. I'd say, it may depend on the surface its going on but this looks like it might work
http://www.ximbonder.com/products_detail.asp?id=31

or this stuff looks good as well. Pitt-Guardâ Rapid Coat Epoxy Primer for new construction 95-200 Series


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## WisePainter

BC_Painter said:


> Sometimes the in store help amazes me....


Imho, a real painter knows what he needs and how to properly apply it. Relying on the skills and knowledge of a part time $7.50 hr SW employee is for HO's.
Ocean man has mentioned that a sales rep recommend Pro200 primer, I say "wtf" ?!?

Here's the rub: ocean person is mainly a wallpaper person and has not done this type of work since the early 90's.

back away slowly, now.


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## straight_lines

Find your area sales rep like BC suggested, and stop listening to those random guys in the store. The area rep will know what he is talking about and let you know exactly what you need.


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## CApainter

The Rep that suggested 200 primer over wall board or plaster was correct, according to the spec sheet. 

Over previously painted surfaces the spec sheet recommends dulling the surface if glossy.

http://www.duron.com/products/tdsmsds_Result.asp?DocType=PDS&Language=E&prodno=B67W00201

Did they suggest the Pro Industrial Acrylic Waterborne Epoxy?


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## NCPaint1

Right on about the store help ( not always though  ) If its an acrylic epoxy, there shouldnt be an issue. If its a solvent base, could potentially be problems unless you know exactly what the previous product was. I usually recommend diamond grinding the coating to profile it prior to applying the coating.


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## NEPS.US

WisePainter said:


> Epoxy are not for the timid...my advice is go introduce yourself, and then start asking the tougher questions.
> And yes, I am certified to work with epoxies, and why none of the 3 S.W. reps aren't seeking your certifications baffles me...
> 
> Failure with epoxy coatings mean possible lawsuits against a company that has more than 130 years experience in the coatings industry.
> 
> Wait, aren't you a wallpaper contractor since the early 90's?!?
> 
> 
> ffs, good luck and good bye.





WisePainter said:


> lol, yeah, put Pro200 primer over epoxy...
> 
> sweet jebus.............





WisePainter said:


> Imho, a real painter knows what he needs and how to properly apply it. Relying on the skills and knowledge of a part time $7.50 hr SW employee is for HO's.
> Ocean man has mentioned that a sales rep recommend Pro200 primer, I say "wtf" ?!?
> 
> Here's the rub: ocean person is mainly a wallpaper person and has not done this type of work since the early 90's.
> 
> back away slowly, now.


 
Hat Trick! :thumbup:


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## Schmidt & Co.

_WHATEVER_ system you use, put a benchmark sample on the floor first before starting the job!


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## Schmidt & Co.

Just curious.... Is this a factory floor, garage floor, or somewhere in-between?


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## NEPS.US

Dont think it's a floor.


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## vermontpainter

If its a floor, I agree with Wise, its not an application for someone who hasnt been in the painting world much lately. Epoxy floors are about as high risk as you can get. We did one in December for a bread distribution facility, 4600 sf, and I was nervous about it, even though we did several epoxy floors in the months prior.


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## NEPS.US

Post 7 ---bare sheetrock.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> Post 7 ---bare sheetrock.


I think hes just referring to that in the context of pro200


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## NEPS.US

But why even offer it unless it was walls. Jus sayin'


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> But why even offer it unless it was walls. Jus sayin'


True. Maybe he'll come back and fill us in.


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## vermontpainter

This is armourseal. Freaking stuff is bad arse.


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## vermontpainter

This picture was after a few days abuse from handtrucks and pallette stacks being slid across it by truck drivers. Armourseal rocks. Pricy though.


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## oceanwalls

*Walls to recieve epoxy by oceanwalls*

Thanks for the input fellas, and of course for the run for your life advice.. priceless. 

They are indeed walls. The walls have been coated with latex epoxy from Sherwin Williams which the owners are not happy with. I called more reps today and got basically the two opinions once again. The one SW manager had called the "technical" support of SW and they told him to tell me to sand to the feel of 120 grit sandpaper and coat with the Epoxy which is a solvent based.The spec is High Performance Epxoy two part by SW Pro Industrial line. The other who is a manager of a SW/Duron Commercial store said those guys don't know what they are talking about. Sand, use the Adhesion Primer and coat with the new epoxy. The first manager said the guy who is the manager of the commercial store doesn't know what he is talking about, that the new epoxy will shrink and pull the adhesion primer right off the wall. I am leaning towards going with what the tech line said since this should cover me to some degree if there is a failure. And indeed that is what brings me here. An electronic forum where real experienced professionals that work with the product may have some valuable input for me. Thanks again for all your help.

Brian


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## Schmidt & Co.

Thanks for the additional info! I was stuck in my mind on a _floor coating_ when you said "epoxy".......

Ask the store manager who the _regional sales rep _is. Have that person come out to your job-site, check it out and give you a coating spec for your particular situation.


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## CK_68847

We have done similar jobs. We used an adhesion primer and it worked. We didn't mess around though. We went with XIM. It is the best bonding primer I have ever used. If you put the oil epoxy over that latex epoxy all it will do is burn through it, and the paint will glob up on the wall, and you are really screwed.


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## TJ Paint

I think this is a classic case of polevaulting over mouseturds. Sand that stuff for tooth, prime with a primer that works.  Get the job done.


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## painter213

Whatever way that they tell you to do, GET IT IN WRITTING!! This way, your REALLY COVERED. Epoxy is Epoxy, Water Based or Solvent Base.


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## straight_lines

oceanwalls said:


> Thanks for the input fellas, and of course for the run for your life advice.. priceless.
> 
> They are indeed walls. The walls have been coated with latex epoxy from Sherwin Williams which the owners are not happy with. I called more reps today and got basically the two opinions once again. The one SW manager had called the "technical" support of SW and they told him to tell me to sand to the feel of 120 grit sandpaper and coat with the Epoxy which is a solvent based.The spec is High Performance Epxoy two part by SW Pro Industrial line. The other who is a manager of a SW/Duron Commercial store said those guys don't know what they are talking about. Sand, use the Adhesion Primer and coat with the new epoxy. The first manager said the guy who is the manager of the commercial store doesn't know what he is talking about, that the new epoxy will shrink and pull the adhesion primer right off the wall. I am leaning towards going with what the tech line said since this should cover me to some degree if there is a failure. And indeed that is what brings me here. An electronic forum where real experienced professionals that work with the product may have some valuable input for me. Thanks again for all your help.
> 
> Brian



What a nightmare, would seem they could give you some solid advise and not tell you their own co workers are idiots. I don't think you can go wrong with priming, even if its more costly.


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## ibsocal

The epoxy is usually the primer and some times the top coat.
Epoxies WILL yellow with time so I would recomend top coating with an enamel if low budget and polyurethane if there is money in the budget.
Sand all surface with 60-80 grit for anchor tooth profile,solvent or green solvent wipe and apply two coats of epoxy or one coat epoxy and two coat poly or enamel 
Almost forgot look @ PSX 700


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## ibsocal

ibsocal said:


> The epoxy is usually the primer and some times the top coat.
> Epoxies WILL yellow with time so I would recomend top coating with an enamel if low budget and polyurethane if there is money in the budget.
> Sand all surface with 60-80 grit for anchor tooth profile,solvent or green solvent wipe and apply two coats of epoxy or one coat epoxy and two coat poly or enamel
> Almost forgot look @ PSX 700


PPG/AMERON PSX 700 OR 1001


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## oceanwalls

*Update*

Today the area SW Rep walked the job with me. His suggestion was sand , clean and apply the epoxy. Will let you know how it goes... on a brighter note while I was waiting for the Rep to show up a guy walks into the store and is looking for a wallpaper installer. Seems his installer never showed and he wants to move ahead. I ended up going and looking at the job and getting it for next week. Could be a sign ..... :whistling2:


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## BC_Painter

oceanwalls said:


> Today the area SW Rep walked the job with me. His suggestion was sand , clean and apply the epoxy. Will let you know how it goes... on a brighter note while I was waiting for the Rep to show up a guy walks into the store and is looking for a wallpaper installer. Seems his installer never showed and he wants to move ahead. I ended up going and looking at the job and getting it for next week. Could be a sign ..... :whistling2:



Awesome :thumbup:


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## painter213

Sounds like you was in the right place at the right time.


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## TJ Paint

i thought wallpaper was so 1980's?


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## BC_Painter

TJ Paint said:


> i thought wallpaper was so 1980's?


You'd be surprised

Even floral prints


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## oceanwalls

*Epoxy Job Done*

 All went well, sanded, cleaned, scraped back some ugly peeling stuff, skimmed with 20, dried, spot primed and mixed the epoxy brushed and rolled one coat, couple thin spots on cut in we touched up looked awesome! Really a great product, went on thick and smooth and glossed up nice. Manager was happy and I get to do another next week.... must say this epoxy seems to cover nicer. I wore a respirator the whole time the guys working with me did not and got a little cranky by the time we were done. The place had amazing ventilation, the pot life was about 2 hours. Overall a great job. Thanks for all the good advice!

Brian


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## NCPaint1

So was it solvent based epoxy or acrylic? I mean they all kinda stink, but the solvent is much worse.

On a side note....I kinda like the smell of 100% solids epoxy......reminds me of cherry car air freshener. I don't know why.


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## painter213

That's because a 100% Solids Epoxy contains no SOLVENT.


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## NCPaint1

painter213 said:


> That's because a 100% Solids Epoxy contains no SOLVENT.


Still cleanup with Xylene.

The technology as to how all those crazy chemicals work is beyond me. I just read and follow directions...


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## oceanwalls

It was a solvent based, High Performance by SW. Smelled rough!


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## painter213

NCPaint1 said:


> Still cleanup with Xylene.
> 
> The technology as to how all those crazy chemicals work is beyond me. I just read and follow directions...


The 100% Solids coatings that we use we have no clean-up after spray. Materials mix as they exit the gun. So there is no flushing of the system when done. 

Most of the 100% Solids Epoxies out there also would not clean with Xylene either. Most recommed MEK for clean-up and that is just for the last few feet of spray line after the Mix Manifold. But it just depends on the system that your using.

They all dry and cure by the chemical reaction between both components. Most ones that I deal with dries in as little as Three seconds. I prefer to use those that dries in around Seven to Ten seconds though. Much slower. 

Plus all the systems that I deal with are heated systems as well. Anywhere from 140 degrees F to 170 degrees F. 

I will be teaching another class June 22-25 in Alpharetta, Georgia. Anyone interested you can go to www.pda-online.org for more information on the class. 

Glad that your job turned out good for you Oceanwalls.:thumbsup:


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## NCPaint1

That stuff that mixes at the gun is sweeeeeeet. I only sell the type thats a 2-1 mix, and a 15 minute pot life......mix....run and pour....squeegee.


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## captainblando

sounds like bad news bears ...if its a floor go get a machine like a grinder with the carbide tips, next best thing to a shotblaster. remove coating and maybe even a thin slice of substrate. It is the same thing I would do to a new floor. If you can remove it and do it from scratch , that is the way I would always do it, unless they dont want a warranty. Epoxy is kinda supossed to last forever in my mind....


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