# Fixing joints in trim work



## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

I have a remodeler telling me I have to fill butt joints in some wide ceiling beams. The joints are 8 to 9 inches across and on all three sides in different locations. Wants them to look like they are not there. My idea is they were there all this time with no complaints from the homeowner. I can fill with wood filler and level out like you were mudding a seam in drywall but I think they will just open up over time. That and when they do open up it will not be a strait line like it is now but jagged looking.

Whats the thought on if I should fill them?
The best way to do so to minimize cracking open in the future if I do fill them?


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## oldschool (Oct 18, 2009)

If the beams are not smooth and you fill the gaps it will leave a smooth obvious area on the beams. Caulking will fill the gap, but not make it disappear. Some things require simply saying - no. Once you start on this it will go from bad to worse. Tell the contractor to have his guys fill the gaps. You are the painter, not the miracle worker.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm a firm believer in construction adhesives for this type of thing if its a painted smooth surface. Pack the gap with a putty knife, wipe clean with thinner rag, allow to dry, mud over any slight differences and buzz it smooth with an orbital. Prime with CoverStain spray can and paint.

Or, caulk it, paint it, let it crack.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Swedish Putty.


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

There is only a hair line seam with most of them. Would I open it up a bit so there is something for the adhesive to grab to? By mudding you mean some type of wood filler/patch or do you mean drywall hot mud would work for something like this. Sounds odd that I would be thinking of drywall mud but who knows!

This reminds me of a problem joint were a plastered wood wall met up with a plaster covered concrete wall. Always broke open till I shot it full of construction adhesive. Haven't had to patch it since!


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

The beams are smooth. They look like long mirrors pointing right at the windows!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Laz said:


> There is only a hair line seam with most of them. Would I open it up a bit so there is something for the adhesive to grab to? By mudding you mean some type of wood filler/patch or do you mean drywall hot mud would work for something like this. Sounds odd that I would be thinking of drywall mud but who knows!
> 
> This reminds me of a problem joint were a plastered wood wall met up with a plaster covered concrete wall. Always broke open till I shot it full of construction adhesive. Haven't had to patch it since!


Oh. hairline... jeez. well I thought you were talking about some gaps you can stick a putty knife into. Anyways... its been my experience with adhesives that you get a bit of shrinkage or its not quite flush because it was wiped with a rag. DAP Vinyl patch is a creamy thin filler good for faint impressions.

I might just pack some caulk in there with a putty knife then wipe it with the rag wrapped around the putty knife. Sounds minor.


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

Most are hairline but the ones that are open are were they can be seen the most, on the bottom of the beam.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I would use Bondo. Use a wire brush to match the grain if needed.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Laz said:


> I have a remodeler telling me I have to fill butt joints in some wide ceiling beams. The joints are 8 to 9 inches across and on all three sides in different locations. Wants them to look like they are not there. My idea is they were there all this time with no complaints from the homeowner. I can fill with wood filler and level out like you were mudding a seam in drywall but I think they will just open up over time. That and when they do open up it will not be a strait line like it is now but jagged looking.
> 
> Whats the thought on if I should fill them?
> The best way to do so to minimize cracking open in the future if I do fill them?



Was this discussed prior to signing a contract for a specific scope of work to be done? Just wondering if they have been painted by you once already and he is asking after the fact or if this is for a cost estimation analysis. 

I like the ides of working some glue in there as much as possible, toe nailing a few 3" screws then doing the patchwork. Just me though.


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

Who gets to sign a contract with the remodeler? They call and say they need work done, you go do it. They may ask for an estimate so they know what to expect. You invoice them and get a check. Demand a contract or tell them no on the joints and I can guarantee the other painter will be getting the calls.

On this job I am the other painter! The previous one said no.:no: I can stand on whatever box I want just as long as I don't need money. My wife thinks that since I am in business for myself I only have to do what I want. Reality is something totally different.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Just don't forget these 'little' things this particular remodeler expects for the next job. Each job will reveal new 'little' things as you both get to know each other.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Laz said:


> Who gets to sign a contract with the remodeler? They call and say they need work done, you go do it. They may ask for an estimate so they know what to expect. You invoice them and get a check. Demand a contract or tell them no on the joints and I can guarantee the other painter will be getting the calls.
> 
> On this job I am the other painter! The previous one said no.:no: I can stand on whatever box I want just as long as I don't need money. My wife thinks that since I am in business for myself I only have to do what I want. Reality is something totally different.


Just wondering is all. Having to do something and being asked to are two different things. If you have a relationship where it is give an 'estimate' and provide an invoice after, then all is well. If you gave a price and he expects that to be it, then throws in an extra this or that after the fact.... Nah, not me. I will let the other guy come do an extra half days labor for free just to get the next one. That's why for me, it's a detailed and signed contract every time. 

Many GC's and remodelers strategize with that carrot dangling always in front. Especially with painters because they have run out of $ during the project up to the point of painting. Like for instance here, IF you had already painted those beams, and after the fact he is asking for the joints to disappear after the homeowner had lived with it up to this point, that makes for time first of all invested into doing it once, then again with additional prep involved. So, I don't know how many there are but up to a full days labor wasted just to get another job later? That isn't increasing our value as paint contractors any imo. IF you can just do it and provide a bill and he pays, well then I wouldn't even bother asking on a forum if I should fill them it would be done already. 

I don't know like I said maybe this is for an estimate ananlysis. But, if it is after the estimate and the job is currently in progress, and the GC finds it worth mentioning now, then he could have found it to be worth mentioning during the estimate as well. 

I'm just trying to help Laz not bash you. Your question on 'if you should fill them' brought a couple of factors into the equation in my mind is all. Profit and business tactics being two of them. I have a natural inclination to not trust GC's in this game. Regarding the actual 'how to' part of it. Well, that's easy imo. 

Cheers.


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## goldenwest (Aug 11, 2011)

> I would use Bondo. Use a wire brush to match the grain if needed.


Bondo would probably work well on small joints as you described. But you should cut them open (V-shape) first. 

Even better would be a wood-repair epoxy, which is more flexible than polyester filler (ie Bondo) and will be less likely to crack or split at the joint.


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## Laz (Nov 14, 2010)

I am supposed to get paid to fill them under T&M but I know what happens with this GM when T&M gets to be more than he thinks it should have been.
I'm mainly looking at that if or when they open up again I will be the one to fix them. Even If I get paid to come back to do the work who wants to keep doing that? That and the homeowner isn't complaining about them.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Even better would be a wood-repair epoxy, which is more flexible than polyester filler (ie Bondo) and will be less likely to crack or split at the joint.[/QUOTE]

I've never used wood-repair epoxy in hair line butt joints before so I Won't disagree with you. Bondo is usually my go-to butt joint flusher. For ceiling beams, caulk usually does the trick unless they are mirror smooth.

I like the ides of working some glue in there as much as possible, toe nailing a few 3" screws then doing the patchwork. Just me though. 

I would only consider this if the job was a repaint where I worked directly for the ho. Gc should take care of fastening wood together. That's what carpenters get paid for, right?


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## oldschool (Oct 18, 2009)

Laz said:


> Who gets to sign a contract with the remodeler? They call and say they need work done, you go do it. They may ask for an estimate so they know what to expect. You invoice them and get a check. Demand a contract or tell them no on the joints and I can guarantee the other painter will be getting the calls.
> 
> On this job I am the other painter! The previous one said no.:no: I can stand on whatever box I want just as long as I don't need money. My wife thinks that since I am in business for myself I only have to do what I want. Reality is something totally different.


Get a clientele that appreciates good work and does not ask you to do things that are not going to look good. All the suggestions I have heard are guaranteed to not only fail, they will look worse than the cracks until they do fail. Why not simply spend some time educating the client on the facts and let it go. I would much rather have someone disappointed in something I would not do, than something I did that looks like hell. I don't scramble for every job I get a call on. Do good work consistently and you will never be out of work. Period.:thumbup:


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

oldschool said:


> Get a clientele that appreciates good work and does not ask you to do things that are not going to look good. All the suggestions I have heard are guaranteed to not only fail, they will look worse than the cracks until they do fail. Why not simply spend some time educating the client on the facts and let it go. I would much rather have someone disappointed in something I would not do, than something I did that looks like hell. I don't scramble for every job I get a call on. Do good work consistently and you will never be out of work. Period.:thumbup:


Agreed. Even in that my own idea of screw and glue would not work for very long. Agree 100%. That it would fail eventually anyway. I would make it look good until the structure caused movement and an eventual crack again but this is not the point really of what you are saying I think. Everything else, yes. 

The contract I use has a stipulation removing me from responsibility of any failure caused by structural issues. Nothing like being neck deep on other projects and some GC wants to call and ask to fix some beam that never should have been patched to begin with. Yea right, here I come I'll just stop what I'm doing right now and come fix that. You will have another one for me later I know. Ohhhhh I can't wait to go to another one of your projects and do some charity work......

Just for fun maybe I would give the 'remodeler' a suggestion to simpson tie the beams together like they should be and then case them with some paint grade birch or something. See how much of his time he wants to invest into making them disappear without a contract. Say it in front of the HO see how he reacts :jester:

They don't wanna do a contract they can pound sand.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Laz said:


> I am supposed to get paid to fill them under T&M but I know what happens with this GM when T&M gets to be more than he thinks it should have been.
> I'm mainly looking at that if or when they open up again I will be the one to fix them. Even If I get paid to come back to do the work who wants to keep doing that? That and the homeowner isn't complaining about them.


“Latent damage” is due to conditions beyond the
control of the Painting and Decorating Contractor.
This damage is caused by conditions not apparent
at the time of initial painting and decorating.
The Painting and Decorating Contractor will repair
and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving
acceptance of its proposal and authorization to
proceed on either a lump sum or time and material
basis.

The contractual work is job and item specific. In
no case shall the Painting and Decorating
Contractor be responsible for “Damage caused by
others” or “Latent damage” as herein described


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