# Turbine HVLP vs Air Assisted Airless



## Mantis

Multimillion dollar homes require an automotive like finish that an airless with a FF tip just wont deliver. Ive been using a 2.5gallon pot and compressor with a Binks 2001 gun to provide this finish. I'm sick of lugging around my over-sized compressor and pot, plus I feel there is a more efficient way. 

I've been looking into some 3 and 4 stage HVLPs with either the 2qt remote cup or a 2.5 gallon pot. I know the HVLP will give me the quality im looking for, but spraying out 7000sq foot of home with it would be less than quick. 

What do you guys think about Air Assisted Airless? I have never had the oportunity to use one of these bad boys, but the Graco rep was talking up a storm about it. Apparently it can deliver HVLP quality with impressive transfer rate and is ultimately cheaper than the HVLP/turbine/compressor/pot set up I was looking at. 

So who out there has used an Air Assisted Airless? Can it deliver automotive-finish like quality? 

Maybe i should buy both :thumbup:


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## Last Craftsman

Dude, cut yourself some slack. An airless is easiest and best unless you are spraying something very ornate then it helps to have that "powdery" consisty that conventional, hvlp, or air assisted gives you.

If you reduce your paint properly, and use a 2-10, or 3-10, there is no reason why your trim will not have a mirror finish.

I think they even have 8 and 9 orifice tips.

I can achieve it with acrylic, so, you definately should be able to with oil which I am assuming you are using on a job such as you described.

Lacquer also sprays out like glass with an airless, it's all about proper reduction.

I once sprayed my car with an airless and it had zero orange peel. I wouldnt recomend it for multiple clear coats on your austin healy, but for any residential application airlesses are king.

I only like HVLP for some types of objects that need finer atomization because they are so ornate with different angles and depths to the piece.

Also HVLPS are nice for touch up work, so you can just pour in a little paint and clean easily without having to get an airless all loaded up with paint.

Go that complicated route if you like, but I am telling you for sure that you already own the tool you need.

It is nice though to designate a machine for your fine trim work. You dont want to be spraying out 50 gallons of PVA one day, then lacquering a spiral staircase the next day with the same machine.


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## DeanV

I agree with the above. I have tried spraying large items like doors with an HVLP 2.5 gallons pressure pot once, and I find I get a better finish with the airless since it is much better at keeping a wet edge with the speed you can move. Add in the fact that a nice, wet coat will flow out a bit and give proper millage, and it is airless all the way for me for top coats.

I think a turbine would give you more problems with large surfaces than your current set up since the turbine air would get hotter with time and mess stuff up. 

I would like to try one of the finish pro Graco's as well though. 

There are a couple painters around us in GR that use them. Talk to Rodney at the 29th St. 7's if you have questions about that, since he knows which painters are using them.


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## Mantis

Last Craftsman said:


> Dude, cut yourself some slack. An airless is easiest and best unless you are spraying something very ornate then it helps to have that "powdery" consisty that conventional, hvlp, or air assisted gives you.
> 
> If you reduce your paint properly, and use a 2-10, or 3-10, there is no reason why your trim will not have a mirror finish.
> 
> I think they even have 8 and 9 orifice tips.
> 
> I can achieve it with acrylic, so, you definately should be able to with oil which I am assuming you are using on a job such as you described.
> 
> Lacquer also sprays out like glass with an airless, it's all about proper reduction.
> 
> I once sprayed my car with an airless and it had zero orange peel. I wouldnt recomend it for multiple clear coats on your austin healy, but for any residential application airlesses are king.
> 
> I only like HVLP for some types of objects that need finer atomization because they are so ornate with different angles and depths to the piece.
> 
> Also HVLPS are nice for touch up work, so you can just pour in a little paint and clean easily without having to get an airless all loaded up with paint.
> 
> Go that complicated route if you like, but I am telling you for sure that you already own the tool you need.
> 
> It is nice though to designate a machine for your fine trim work. You dont want to be spraying out 50 gallons of PVA one day, then lacquering a spiral staircase the next day with the same machine.


Im going to have to disagree. I dont think your idea of "auto like finish" and mine are the same thing. Especially if you spray your cars with an airless and think it looks great. I've sprayed out a dozen homes with pre-cat lacquer using the airless and it lays nice and feels fine, but it simply does not provide the finish i am looking for, regardless of reduction. I can definitely see the difference in, say, a staircase sprayed with an airless versus one sprayed with a pot set up. For the record, Im talking about pigmented pre-cat, not clears. I'd estimate an airless is about 90% of my finish goal, I need that extra 10% 



DeanV said:


> I agree with the above. I have tried spraying large items like doors with an HVLP 2.5 gallons pressure pot once, and I find I get a better finish with the airless since it is much better at keeping a wet edge with the speed you can move. Add in the fact that a nice, wet coat will flow out a bit and give proper millage, and it is airless all the way for me for top coats.
> 
> I think a turbine would give you more problems with large surfaces than your current set up since the turbine air would get hotter with time and mess stuff up.
> 
> I would like to try one of the finish pro Graco's as well though.


Good point about the hot air from the HVLP, didnt think about that. 
I spoke with the Graco rep and he reccomends the AAA also. Im going to call him again on Monday and see if he can let me demo a Finish Pro .


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## MDRocket

Finish Pro is what we have been useing past 4 or 5 jobs. Its got it's kinks I guess, it does fine finishing but not high end fine finishing you would expect from a cabinet makers spray booth. 

If your looking for that extra 10% I think its a good way to go, depending on what my and your idea of fine finishing is. With some extra time just doing more of the fine finishing with the machine I think anyone could tweak it to be better. I just havent had the amount of built-ins to finish on my last few projects to tweak with it to much. If you do get one or test one like to hear what ya think about it.


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## Last Craftsman

Mantis said:


> I'd estimate an airless is about 90% of my finish goal, I need that extra 10%


Well, I dont disagree with someone who wants to do things to an extra 10% level of quality beyond what is noticable. Quality is king in my book.

Especially if you are getting paid to spend the extra time, because that means your clientele is top notch, and that is the most important thing to achieve as a painter. It sounds like you have achieved that.

But I am sure you _can _achieve a mirror finish with pigmented lacquer and an airless.

By the way, the car that I sprayed DID look excellent. It looked way BETTER than a factory finish all of which seem to have a little orange peel these days. 

And that example wasnt a response to your statement about wanting to put an automotive finish on your trim, it was an example I would have used any way.

Just so you understand my view, I will say that if I owned an automotive painting business, I would NOT use an airless to spray the cars out with. I was just making a point that I can, and have used an airless to achieve an automotive finish. 

I did however make an exception for automotive clear coats. 

Suit yourself, everyone has different techniques to achieve their end result. Yours is going to cost you a lot in equipment and hassle.

But if you do top notch work, have good customers, get paid well, and stay busy, that is all that really matters.


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## DeanV

IMO, it is not the spray application that limits most painters, but the caulking, nail filling and sanding that limit the final product.


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## TooledUp

DeanV said:


> IMO, it is not the spray application that limits most painters, but the caulking, nail filling and sanding that limit the final product.


That stands in all situations though. The paint only looks as good as the surface it goes on. :thumbsup:


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## MDRocket

TooledUp said:


> That stands in all situations though. The paint only looks as good as the surface it goes on. :thumbsup:


 

So true.


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## Last Craftsman

DeanV said:


> IMO, it is not the spray application that limits most painters, but the caulking, nail filling and sanding that limit the final product.


Agreed.

Dont forget surgical cleaning, and techniques to keep air movement down while the finish is setting up.


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## johnpaint

I have heard that some auto manufactures actually use a airless guns.I thinks it is all in how your reducing your material, and the temp/air movement.I know if I start and stop at the proper points, and I don't spend too much time on the section I'm painting it comes out very smooth.The materials they use on autos as you know a very thin and that may be the difference.I think auto paint levels out way better.I think this has a lot to do with the grind of the pigments.


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## Mantis

Last Craftsman said:


> Well, I dont disagree with someone who wants to do things to an extra 10% level of quality beyond what is noticable. Quality is king in my book.
> 
> Especially if you are getting paid to spend the extra time, because that means your clientele is top notch, and that is the most important thing to achieve as a painter. It sounds like you have achieved that.
> 
> But I am sure you _can _achieve a mirror finish with pigmented lacquer and an airless.
> 
> By the way, the car that I sprayed DID look excellent. It looked way BETTER than a factory finish all of which seem to have a little orange peel these days.
> 
> And that example wasnt a response to your statement about wanting to put an automotive finish on your trim, it was an example I would have used any way.
> 
> Just so you understand my view, I will say that if I owned an automotive painting business, I would NOT use an airless to spray the cars out with. I was just making a point that I can, and have used an airless to achieve an automotive finish.
> 
> I did however make an exception for automotive clear coats.
> 
> Suit yourself, everyone has different techniques to achieve their end result. Yours is going to cost you a lot in equipment and hassle.
> 
> But if you do top notch work, have good customers, get paid well, and stay busy, that is all that really matters.


Wait, are you thinking i want to see my reflection in my trim? That's not the case at all. If i wanted that, I'd buy some 90 sheen and be done. Im trying to achieve the butteryist(is that a word?), smoothest trim I can for this builder. My trim should feel exactly like the cabinets when i'm finished, and I still say an airless is not going to give me that. 

I once knew a guy who painted his car with a brush and claimed it was better than factory. I guess finish quality means different things to different people. If your builder is happy with that 90%, and most are, then that's great! I have one that wants that last 10% and instead of telling him that the last 10% isnt noticable, im going to see what i can do to, within reason, deliver. 

Besides, I dont own and HVLP or an AAA yet. I need toys!


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## MDRocket

I'd use butterist I think you drop the y on this one.

And we all need toys.


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## Mantis

Butteriesty


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## brushmstr

I paint high-end homes in ma. and use a Titan and Graco airless which both do a very nice job. I also finish cabinets and use a Kremlin which is an air assisted unit. It requires a compressor. I have HVLPs but the Kremlin is much faster and product does not have to be reduced. You can spray out of a five as opposed to a cup on the HVLP. But for trim, I personally think the airless with practice should be fine.


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## Mantis

brushmstr said:


> I paint high-end homes in ma. and use a Titan and Graco airless which both do a very nice job. I also finish cabinets and use a Kremlin which is an air assisted unit. It requires a compressor. I have HVLPs but the Kremlin is much faster and product does not have to be reduced. You can spray out of a five as opposed to a cup on the HVLP. But for trim, I personally think the airless with practice should be fine.


Thanks for the reply. As i stated before, airless can not give me the quality that im looking to achieve. I'm quite confident it's not a "practice" issue. I'm going to be demoing Graco's Finish Pro Air Assisted Airless next month on another project. I have a feeling that's going to be what im looking for. I'll post then and let everyone know


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## DeanV

Definitely keep us posted. One of those is my next possible pump purchase.


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## JCM

Mantis, I too am interested in a machine like that. Up until now we have done all our trim (high end) with a brinks pp with excellent results. One of the biggest problems are that we have to air condition the room the compressor is in. We found that once we were able to control the temp and added a moisture trap that we were able to get a better then auto finish. Also by adding some minsprts adjusted for ambient and surface temp we now obtained a finish from latex that we only saw from lacquer. I also hear from alot of people that they have problems keeping the edges wet but that is usually user error caused by trying to over atomize the material, just back off on the air and crank up on the pot pressure. I am looking forward to seeing the results of that turbine, I would love to have the finish we are producing with the time of an airless.


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## bikerboy

We have had the Graco since it first came out. There is a learning curve (at least for me) but it works well. 

We reduce the paint with a little water and Floetrol (Floetrol lets you run less pressure) and spray Muralo Ultra and it looks good. Make sure you strain the paint and run fine mesh filters. (I know...basic stuff)

Have not sprayed lacquer in years, but would use the HVLP for that.

Nice thing about the AA is that it is a multi-purpose tool.


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## brushmstr

Mantis
I don't know if they sell Kremlin where your located but in cabinet finishing its been the hottest unit over the last few years. Check woodweb and find out what people are using. I've tried the Graco and there is no comparison. However, the Kremlin is pricey. Good Luck


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## Softy

Mantis said:


> I'd estimate an airless is about 90% of my finish goal, I need that extra 10%


Everytime we run into these type of house we either tape up all the trims work and usually including door and window shutters or we have to subcontract out specialist like you. I guessed you're that 10% guy:notworthy: After that I'll go in and finish the wall with either .11 or .13 tip. Though most of these home required hand paint due to its complexity and spray will just ruin it.

As for Graco AAA, I hope it works out and I surely like to hear result from a 10% guy. My only concerned is the prolong use of lacquer thinner in a piston/rod pump. Isn't that like the #1 pump killer? That's how I scratched up my Graco 695 rod when I first learn how to paint:no:


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## TJ Paint

I wish guys like this would give updates. I want to know if he achieved the perfect finish or went broke or what. Such a downer, not having resolution and closure to stuff like this.


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## Workaholic

TJ Paint said:


> I wish guys like this would give updates. I want to know if he achieved the perfect finish or went broke or what. Such a downer, not having resolution and closure to stuff like this.


Mantis's website is still up and running so probably just busy making money.


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## ewingpainting.net

TooledUp said:


> That stands in all situations though. The paint only looks as good as the surface it goes on. :thumbsup:


Yup! :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint

Workaholic said:


> Mantis's website is still up and running so probably just busy making money.


on a friday night? hope not


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## DeanV

Last I talked to Mantis, he never ended up trying a AAA. That was sometime in 2010.


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## jack pauhl

I'll have a Finish Pro 395 this week... I'll be sure to let you know if my production decreases or increases.


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## TJ Paint

I brought this thread to life again because I'm wondering if I can get real close to AAA using a FF tip and extender/thinned out product manipulation. I guess I'm thinking about doors and trim.

I've never used a AAA so can't compare.

Hey JP, that would be a great review. compare the two.


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## mike75

Hi jp Michael here from oz have owned the finishpro 395 for about a year and have trouble with the aircap jets blocking with paint could you reply back with any tips or methods to help me would be much appreciated cheers


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## NEPS.US

jack pauhl said:


> I'll have a Finish Pro 395 this week... I'll be sure to let you know if my production decreases or increases.


I have one word for you Jack --- Multifinish


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## jack pauhl

TJ Paint said:


> I brought this thread to life again because I'm wondering if I can get real close to AAA using a FF tip and extender/thinned out product manipulation. I guess I'm thinking about doors and trim.
> 
> I've never used a AAA so can't compare.
> 
> Hey JP, that would be a great review. compare the two.


Yep I am curious. But I also know paints like superpaint semi dont lay like glass like other paints do unfooledaroundwith with a FFT.

I read through that other AAA thread and it really has me curious. Contacted my people at Graco today and can get one this week! Going to shoot Sherwin Williams Super Paint Semi gloss and ProClassic semi hybrid for starts.


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## jack pauhl

NEPS.US said:


> I have one word for you Jack --- Multifinish


Does that have anything to do with multitasking?


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## NEPS.US

jack pauhl said:


> Does that have anything to do with multitasking?


 
haha - No, the Titan air assist. IMO it blows away the Graco.


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## DeanV

mike75 said:


> Hi jp Michael here from oz have owned the finishpro 395 for about a year and have trouble with the aircap jets blocking with paint could you reply back with any tips or methods to help me would be much appreciated cheers


I mentioned this in a couple places, but if the aircap jets are blocking with paint, I think you need more pressure on the pump. It has worked for me so far.




NEPS.US said:


> haha - No, the Titan air assist. IMO it blows away the Graco.


So, what about the Titan AAA blows away the Graco?


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## jack pauhl

mike75 said:


> Hi jp Michael here from oz have owned the finishpro 395 for about a year and have trouble with the aircap jets blocking with paint could you reply back with any tips or methods to help me would be much appreciated cheers


Is that with a quick dry product or products in general? I'll pay attention to that.


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## mike75

thanks for the reply was using oilbased enamel satin on 9 foot doors very popular in OZ.


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## paintpro08

I have heard about the problems Graco has with clogging aircaps. Here in Holland they are selling the G40 guns with the industrial flat tips (and aircap). From what I have heard these aircaps do not have the clogging issues.

I have received a Titan GM3600 AC gun (that is normally supplied with the Multifinish). I am going to test this with a unit to see if this does not have the clogging problems.


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## bikerboy

mike75 said:


> Hi jp Michael here from oz have owned the finishpro 395 for about a year and have trouble with the aircap jets blocking with paint could you reply back with any tips or methods to help me would be much appreciated cheers


I have three of the aircaps and change them during the day. Keep a 1 gallon bucket with lid half full of denatured alcohol, soak them in that. When I get home I use my compressor (6 hp with 60 gallon tank) and a small blower tip to clean them.

You can also keep pulling the trigger in half way to cycle air through the orffices.

Carry a brass brush (tooth brush looking thing) and clean the excess off occasionally. Hold the gun in a bucket of water and scrub, pulling the trigger to cycle some air through the passages.

If I stop for a while the gun gets stuck into a 5 gallon bucket full of water to keep the paint from drying on it.


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## vermontpainter

I'm curious, to the guys who are having air orifice clog issues, what products are causing this? I've got some miles on my aaa with some fast drying product. I get the garden variety messy tip, but nothing that cant be controlled with an occasional dunk and scrub.


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## bikerboy

Mine has been from Muralo more than anything, but part is due to my zeal to keep producing and not keeping up on the cleaning. I blame me more than the paint.


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## vermontpainter

bikerboy said:


> Mine has been from Muralo more than anything, but part is due to my zeal to keep producing and not keeping up on the cleaning. I blame me more than the paint.


You cant just keep cutting down the tree, you have to sharpen the saw once in a while!


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## jack pauhl

What are the warning signs when clogged? Trails? I cant tell from the photo of the tip guard but how many holes are in the guard, only two?


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## jack pauhl

Those of you with an air assisted sprayer, what was the reason for buying one? Was it for something you couldnt get with a regular airless? Curious why people are buying them. Nice you can still use it as a regular airless too.


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## bikerboy

jack pauhl said:


> Those of you with an air assisted sprayer, what was the reason for buying one? Was it for something you couldnt get with a regular airless? Curious why people are buying them. Nice you can still use it as a regular airless too.


 
Actually was looking at a new HVLP and wanted something that would easily handle latex paints without a ton of overspray. Was at the SW pro show and they made me a smoking deal. They didn't even have them in stock in my district yet. The Graco rep said "If you don't like it, I'll buy it back."


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## paintpro08

Main reasons for buying air assist units over here, are more control and a better finish than with traditional airless.

Also less overspray.

This one is a video of air assist:


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## DeanV

vermontpainter said:


> I'm curious, to the guys who are having air orifice clog issues, what products are causing this? I've got some miles on my aaa with some fast drying product. I get the garden variety messy tip, but nothing that cant be controlled with an occasional dunk and scrub.


I did an exterior porch with Zar exterior waterborne and it clogged a fair amount while spraying that. Also with some other interior WB clears.



jack pauhl said:


> What are the warning signs when clogged? Trails? I cant tell from the photo of the tip guard but how many holes are in the guard, only two?


There are 4 air holes in the guard, rather small ones. You can tell they are clogged by visual inspection, tails, or if orange peel texture shows up in the finish.



jack pauhl said:


> Those of you with an air assisted sprayer, what was the reason for buying one? Was it for something you couldnt get with a regular airless? Curious why people are buying them. Nice you can still use it as a regular airless too.


I was looking for something dedicated for WB clears since I want to ditch lacquer. I did not want to haul a huge compressor around to run a pressure pot and Binks HVLP gun. Since WB clears tend to be very thin, they are not best suited to airless IMO. Too prone to runs. A lot of WB clears want to be sprayed at 2-3 wet mills. I am hoping thheat the AAA unit blend the control of HVLP with the speed of an airless. I am not so much concerned if spraying with AAA is a little slower than airless, I wanted a balance of improved control since clears are usually used on detailed stuff like cabinets, good atomization, reduced overspray, etc. I do not have enough hours on the pump yet to say whether or not it does everything I was hoping for, but I do like the unit so far.


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## vermontpainter

Dean

Good points. I dont consider ultramax to be exceptionally thin. Its kind of milky and has some viscosity to it. When I think thin, I think dye stain.


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## DeanV

Dye stains= HVLP or conventional in my book.

I still have not found the interior Zar UltraMax in my area for sale. I will have to look again. I did find 3 new finishes to try. 1 applies at up to 6 wet mills without sagging.


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## NEPS.US

jack pauhl said:


> Those of you with an air assisted sprayer, what was the reason for buying one? Was it for something you couldnt get with a regular airless? Curious why people are buying them. Nice you can still use it as a regular airless too.


I wanted a better finish for high end trim packs, built-in's and cabinets than what I could get with a conventional airless but with more production than a HVLP and the ability to use 1 or 5 gallon pails.

I've sprayed 100's and 100's of houses and the finish we can get with a AAA compared to a airless with a FF is like night and day. I also like how easy they are to use. Before in order to get a premium finish with a airless on NC trim with our systems it would require either myself or my right hand man to do the spraying. With the Titan AAA everyone of my spray guys can shoot a trim pack. Very versitile, easy to use and learn.


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## Workaholic

NEPS.US said:


> haha - No, the Titan air assist. IMO it blows away the Graco.


Do you say this because you primarily have titan products? Or was it price? Performance? Something else?


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## NEPS.US

Workaholic said:


> Do you say this because you primarily have titan products? Or was it price? Performance? Something else?


Yes and no. I compared both machines and I really thought the Graco was a lightweight machine. They are pretty much the same price but for my needs I think the 440 is a more durable machine. I have a spray reel with 100 ft of airless hose, a splitter for each gun and use the machine as both a airless and a AAA.


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## paintpro08

NEPS, are you using fine finish tips in your AAA gun?


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## NEPS.US

It depends on what we are spraying, both substrate and material.


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## jack pauhl

paintpro08 said:


> Main reasons for buying air assist units over here, are more control and a better finish than with traditional airless.
> 
> Also less overspray.
> 
> This one is a video of air assist:
> 
> YouTube - Verfspuit technieken


If the FinshPro 395 performs with a tight pattern like seen around those windows - then I can see a nice advantage. 

Thanks for the video


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## mike75

vermontpainter said:


> I'm curious, to the guys who are having air orifice clog issues, what products are causing this? I've got some miles on my aaa with some fast drying product. I get the garden variety messy tip, but nothing that cant be controlled with an occasional dunk and scrub.


Iwas using oilbased satin enamel and could only do one and half sides of a door till i had to stop and scrub the jets with a brush with mineral turps.But till it clogged up the spray pattern would be slightly distorted.My regeional Graco rep(moron) suggested i use a fft208 which i thought was more suited for stains and lacquers which actually clagged up quicker .I beleive Dean is right in saying to increase the pressure but i still beleive the setup is flawed.


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## Chad_C

DeanV said:


> I mentioned this in a couple places, but if the aircap jets are blocking with paint, I think you need more pressure on the pump. It has worked for me so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, what about the Titan AAA blows away the Graco?


the Multifinish 440 has a the ability to be turned to down to a lower airless pressure (less over spray) 
and its red


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