# New apprentice with a few questions.



## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

I recently started working for a painting contractor, I have no experience so I'm starting from the bottom as an apprentice, so the pay isn't very good. That's obviously expected, but I was just wondering how I should deal with asking the owner for raises, do I even ask when the time comes, or will he tell me my pay will be increased once more responsibilities are met? It's only been 2 weeks. 

I'm not even painting yet, I'm doing a lot of sanding, pudding holes in wood, heavy lifting, ect. Monday I start cocking the sides of door frames. Do you think I wait about 3 months or so before I ask for my first raise? Maybe a full year? How did you guys deal with this when you first started?

Another question I have. Should I join the painting union and ask my boss if he can sign off on all the hours I am working to show the union that I join? Is it worth it for me in the long run to be part of a painting union?

Is it relatively easy to get a job through the union once you get some years of experience behind you?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

If the union in your area has work for you for 3 years I would say yes.

If they don't have work for you for 3 years you will have a break in your apprenticeship.

This will probably turn into a big union bash thread but-what the hey.

A non union professional contractor can train you to journeyman status. It takes 6000 hours of documented experience, 8000 when I came through the ranks to test for journeyman painter.

Asking for a raise this is my unbiased opinion.
Anytime your contractor puts you on a new piece of equipment for a extended amount of time that's when I would ask for a raise.

Right now your sanding, putting, caulking and masking. You need to Master All aspects of these tools.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Is your employer making the required payroll deductions?


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## Beth16 (May 23, 2012)

I'll preface this with: I know nothing about unions.

Learning to spell what you're doing will lend you more credibility: caulking, not "cocking." 

I've hired many painters and painters' helpers. There's no schedule, in my non-union-world. eg, I hire you as a rank newbie at $10 an hour, if, a month later, you've proved you can caulk and paint closets and anticipate the needs of the lead painters and generally don't need much supervision, I'll hike you to $12-15 an hour (decent pay where I live; location matters). If you have a drivers licence, a vehicle and your own tools and I can send you to a job and be confident you'll do it to everyone's satisfaction, you'll get a whole lot more valuable because you'll make me money!

A lot will depend on your relationship with your boss, the type of work you're doing, how much responsibility you can handle without supervision, etc. I doubt there's a one-size-fits-all answer to your questions.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Is your employer making the required payroll deductions?


This is a VERY good point. If you are not getting a earning statement or check stub you can not document your experience.

This will affect you social security, unemployment, documenting your time in the trade ect.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

robladd said:


> This is a VERY good point. If you are not getting a earning statement or check stub you can not document your experience.
> 
> This will affect you social security, unemployment, documenting your time in the trade ect.



This will be a problem I guess.  There is no stub. I just have a little time sheet I fill in with my hours, but there are no signatures or anything, and I include an invoice sheet of what I'm owed every week. I'm not charged any tax, or any other deductions. Sorry for the spelling lol.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

wanttopaint said:


> This will be a problem I guess.  There is no stub. I just have a little time sheet I fill in with my hours, but there are no signatures or anything, and I include an invoice sheet of what I'm owed every week. I'm not charged any tax, or any other deductions. Sorry for the spelling lol.


Learn everything you can for 2 years. In the mean time, pay your own taxes. After leaning the basics...start your own painting business. 

What were you doing before painting?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

You need to work for a legitimate contractor. You could copy your time sheet and take photos of your progress but then your just documenting
your black market painting career.

Until you get a legitimate job get a steno pad and document your hours and description of work everyday.

It is your work history for later down the road for future employment.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

epretot said:


> Learn everything you can for 2 years. In the mean time, pay your own taxes. After leaning the basics...start your own painting business.
> 
> What were you doing before painting?


Try not to laugh, but my background is working in the computer graphics field, office work, and customer service. After being recently laid off, and just how I seen my future with it, I just wanted to do something different. Being stuck in the office all day I don't think was for me anymore. The workers I work for laugh about the complete 360. But my initial impressions are that it is hard job, but I don't mind it at all. Time flies by so fast, instead of looking at my watch to go home, I'm looking at my watch to see how much more I can get done before I leave.


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## Beth16 (May 23, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> I'm not charged any tax, or any other deductions. Sorry for the spelling lol.


It's not really a "lol" situation.
Are you paying taxes as a subcontractor?


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Beth16 said:


> It's not really a "lol" situation.
> Are you paying taxes as a subcontractor?


There are no deductions from my pay.

btw, I was told I don't get ot pay if I go over 44 hours. He said this is just how it is in this business because we act as sub contractors. Is this right? Why does the ot pay laws not apply to some people....


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## Beth16 (May 23, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> There are no deductions from my pay.


Then you are a subcontractor (I think) and should be paying taxes and insurance and other costs. Have you talked with your boss about this? You really need to.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

True, subcontractors do not get OT. But, then again subcontractors usually know their trade fully, are not being trained, have all their own tools, and tell the contractor what their price is for a job (not even supposed to be hourly according to the IRS).


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

OP

I started out in the exact same position and was given raises without ever mentioning it when I learned to do more and more stuff. Of course I was also a go getter.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

is this a joke?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> is this a joke?


Which part?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

In my experience to work your way up on the pay scale you got to jump shops.
Two weeks isn't any experience at all, you don't know anything yet, but keep at it. As you get to be a better painter opportunities will arise. When you can get a better deal with another contractor, take it. Allways be on the lookout for a better deal and never be afraid to take it.
As far as the whole subcontractor thing and all the posts to follow about taxes, O.T., so forth and so on. And also the union questions too. ALWAYS BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR A BETTER DEAL AND NEVER BE AFRAID TO TAKE IT!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Beth16 said:


> I'll preface this with: I know nothing about unions.
> 
> Learning to spell what you're doing will lend you more credibility: caulking, not "cocking."
> 
> ...


He sounds a bit cockey to me!:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> Which part?


 Go getter?:blink:


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> I recently started working for a painting contractor, I have no experience so I'm starting from the bottom as an apprentice, so the pay isn't very good. That's obviously expected, but I was just wondering how I should deal with asking the owner for raises, do I even ask when the time comes, or will he tell me my pay will be increased once more responsibilities are met? It's only been 2 weeks.
> 
> I'm not even painting yet, I'm doing a lot of sanding, pudding holes in wood, heavy lifting, ect. Monday I start cocking the sides of door frames. Do you think I wait about 3 months or so before I ask for my first raise? Maybe a full year? How did you guys deal with this when you first started?
> 
> ...


My advice is to go back to school. I hate being a painter. Seasonal work, you don't work if it rains, no benefits and no retirement. Try to get a state or government job! 

Sorry to offended anyone else in this thread but that is how I feel.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I had a feeling this guy was getting paid under the table. He does however, make my point about the TICs in the 90,000 sf thread.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

PaintingContractorNJ said:


> My advice is to go back to school. I hate being a painter. Seasonal work, you don't work if it rains, no benefits and no retirement. Try to get a state or government job!
> 
> Sorry to offended anyone else in this thread but that is how I feel.


While I can't say I love being a painter, I certainly don't hate it...nor can I imagine what every day would be like if I did.
That being said, "going back to school" is good advice to the op... I hope you're taking that advice for yourself too.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

If you think your pay is low now, wait until you have to pay self employment tax on what you earn. You are not a qualified subcontractor. You are an employee and as such, your employer should be paying matching taxes and making deductions from your salary. I am not morally judging what your boss is doing but from an IRS standpoint, it is illegal. A qualified sub has his own tools, operates as an owner, does not have set work hours, is licensed if the state requires it, has a Fed Tax ID number and carries his own insurance. You are both skating on thin ice and it would be a good idea to sort this out with your boss or one or both of you can end up owing a huge tax bill and/or face prison.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I had a feeling this guy was getting paid under the table. He does however, make my point about the TICs in the 90,000 sf thread.


I'm not getting cash, I'm getting a company issued check every week. So this will show on his records, so he isn't trying to hide anything.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

wanttopaint said:


> I'm not getting cash, I'm getting a company issued check every week. So this will show on his records, so he isn't trying to hide anything.


No, instead you're getting screwed. Wait and see


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> No, instead you're getting screwed. Wait and see


Who can I talk to about this? I don't want to get screwed. I thought I would be owing money at tax time, but didn't think I was doing anything illegal.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

wanttopaint said:


> I'm not getting cash, I'm getting a company issued check every week. So this will show on his records, so he isn't trying to hide anything.


He will claim you as contract labor and give you a irs 1099 form. You will have to pay taxes on the total amount of money you make at end of year.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> He will claim you as contract labor and give you a irs 1099 form. You will have to pay taxes on the total amount of money you make at end of year.


Is there a way to figure out what I will be taxed in total? I will need to save money so I can pay for this when the time comes. So I need to know what I will owe.

Can I go to prison for this, or face any large fines for not paying taxes? Should I talk to a government official in ontario that knows about this stuff.

According to this tax calculator on the government site from ontario http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/pit/rates.html

They would charge 5.05% tax on my income, is that right or am I missing something?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

wanttopaint said:


> Is there a way to figure out what I will be taxed in total? I will need to save money so I can pay for this when the time comes. So I need to know what I will owe.
> 
> Can I go to prison for this, or face any large fines for not paying taxes? Should I talk to a government official in ontario that knows about this stuff.


 If you want to be a painter you face prison already.Life without payroll!:whistling2:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> Who can I talk to about this? I don't want to get screwed. I thought I would be owing money at tax time, but didn't think I was doing anything illegal.


Cuz, you been there two weeks if you don't like the set up you leave. 
You ain't going to change it. The painting biz is a shady animal by nature.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

wanttopaint said:


> Who can I talk to about this? I don't want to get screwed. I thought I would be owing money at tax time, but didn't think I was doing anything illegal.


Ontario is different, thought you were in the US


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

All states are different, but in Mass he would be illegal because he is not paying your workers comp. You would NOT be a subcontractor in the eyes of the law in Mass and many other states (read Pressure Pros post).

And as far as federal taxes, YOU are liable for them. No they won't throw you in jail, they want the money, which they will get with penalties and interest if you are not making estimated tax payments.

And DO NOT ask you "employer" if what we all say is accurate, he'll obviously say what is best for him, research the net and ask your state employment agency, atty general, workers comp board, and/or a tax advisor.

In short, you are being taken advantage of.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Ontario is different, thought you were in the US



OH, Canada, well you gots different laws. I have no clue where you stand. Research it.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks guys I will research it some more, I'll contact someone at the cra to get more info.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

I disagree with Beth. "Cocking" is a very important part of the job.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wood511 said:


> I disagree with Beth. "Cocking" is a very important part of the job.



Here in Mass, with the typical bahston accent, "Caulk" often comes out "Cawk" which could sound like a male chicken (NO, not "rooster"). I have heard demure HO's call it "Cork",


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## snkd (Dec 29, 2011)

Find a new employer. This guy is probably doing it legally, But it doesn't make it right. Find an employer who treats you like an employee. This guys set up makes you look like another sub. And in that case if you mess up or get hurt on the job its out of your pocket. There are plenty of good people in this world. Go find one to work for.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

I need to get some assistance from some Canadians on here. I am told I am a sub. I was told I don't get O.T pay if I pass 44 hours as I act as a sub and can write off certain things. But according to CRA's site I am not a sub, but a regular employee.

The CRA says I can request to do a check if I am an employee or self employed, but this could end up messing with his business and I'd lose my job. I'm not really sure how to handle this. Seems like whatever I do I'm screwed either way.

If anyone can help, please pm me.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

am I getting that Canada has a 44 hr. work week?


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

My advice, check with the CRA and find out if he is a legitimate contractor.

I'm not Canadian and don't know their specific labor laws. But what you have posted I would not consider you a sub contractor by any means.

Can you answer this question are you doing new construction or are you repainting?

Are you getting payed by the hour or are you getting payed piece work?

For PaintingContractorNJ information being enrolled in the IUPAT JATC is going back to school. 

It's called Trade School. I'll be the first 1 to admit that I have been burned out by the trade and have taking a break from it from time to time 

That's why painting is no longer my full time occupation and I am only involved with professional painting 20% of my career.

Only having to paint 20% of the time has brought back the PASSION so I can enjoy the trade like I onced did as a younger man.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Yo There was a post a while ago about a Canadian contractor wanting to litigate against the local union so he could bid and work on the jobs that were union controlled out there? (Unions any advice?-I think it was called) You know same old, same old-he was a big hit with the tea parties on here of course. You know the unions are communist,corrupt Uh F em and do what you want. that kinda stuff you know. Maybe your workin for that guy. LOL


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

For the benefit of "wanttopaint" can we agree this should not turn into a union bash thread or a hack paint contractor thread.

The young man has come to this forum for sound advice about a trade/craft that he has interest in. I believe we should at least put all our bias opinions about this type of contractor or that type of contractor aside and give him the best type of answers we can.

Giving him a bunch of crap could run him off from wanting to paint into not wanting to paint.

Just like a lot of new members have been run off from PT from some here.

Sincerely Rob


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

robladd said:


> For the benefit of "wanttopaint" can we agree this should not turn into a union bash thread or a hack paint contractor thread.
> 
> The young man has come to this forum for sound advice about a trade/craft that he has interest in. I believe we should at least put all our bias opinions about this type of contractor or that type of contractor aside and give him the best type of answers we can.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Here goes wanttopaint. Are you doing commercial work for this contractor? Do you have a sincere interest in the trade? Are you interested in the union? I'm going to assume Yes,Yes,and Yes. On the downlow you contact the local union hall. Talk to a representative now not the secretary. You bring with you any and all paperwork you got( time cards,check stubs,whatever) You explain to them your situation completely and honestly. Maybe they can help you. Maybe not. Two weeks into a job that you are a helper getting paid as a sub you got nothing to lose.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Can't you just ask your boss all these questions? See what he knows.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Oden said:


> Agreed. Here goes wanttopaint. Are you doing commercial work for this contractor? Do you have a sincere interest in the trade? Are you interested in the union? I'm going to assume Yes,Yes,and Yes. On the downlow you contact the local union hall. Talk to a representative now not the secretary. You bring with you any and all paperwork you got( time cards,check stubs,whatever) You explain to them your situation completely and honestly. Maybe they can help you. Maybe not. Two weeks into a job that you are a helper getting paid as a sub you got nothing to lose.


Yes it is mostly commercial it seems, right now we are working on a 12 story condo, and another is a hotel. He does mostly this type of work. I sincerely have an interest in the trade. I've looked for a contractor to take me in at the beginning of the year, finally I found one that was serious about it. He seems like a good guy to work for. He cares about safety a lot, he put me with a guy that has like 20 years of experience, so I feel like I'm in good hands so far. He has told me that I'm doing good so far. Sometimes I get worried about screwing up and they always try to calm me down and to relax, they seem supportive, I did get yelled at once so far, and get annoyed reactions because sometimes I forget I did a room already since they all look the same. 

One thing they told me is I am over sanding. I'm getting paranoid if I do the job properly and spending too much time some times in one room. This is something I need to correct about one of my early habits.

I'm interested in the union because maybe they can get me jobs I couldn't otherwise get, maybe certain benefits they offer would be also a bonus. I don't know a lot about it if it actually is a benefit to me, or a waste of time and money. I don't know if this board is the right place to ask being that it is a contractors forum and may have an obvious bias.

One thing I like about this job is the day just fly's by. It's amazing actually compared to office work that I'm used to. Instead of looking at the time because I want to go home, I'm looking at the time because I want to get so much done before I leave. Obviously I look forward to the end to go home, but this just feels like it doesn't drag on like other jobs I've had. I start work at 7:30, sometimes it's 9:30 and I'm like ****, I need to go faster to get **** done.

There are some days were it's just a bad day. Certain sites are worse to work at than others as well. For example, at the hotel site the elevator didn't work, so we had to carry a shopping cart with a spray gun and other tools inside up 10 flights of stairs. It was horrible, my legs never got a workout like that. So I know on some days you will hate the job and others it's not so bad. Like any job it has it's up and downs. I'm fine with that.

Right now it's tough for me because the pay is low. Just $12/hr. That's to be expected, but it is difficult work for that amount of pay I feel. I have no experience, something I just have to accept.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Tell you this though working the kind of jobs that you are on you can learn to use the tools fast. there's more drywall and door frames in them two buildings then a house painter will get to work on in ,well, a long time. 

I wonder what the old head is making. what's he do about taxes, insurance, his retiirement so forth and so on. Bring it up.


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## PaintingContractorNJ (May 10, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> While I can't say I love being a painter, I certainly don't hate it...nor can I imagine what every day would be like if I did.
> That being said, "going back to school" is good advice to the op... I hope you're taking that advice for yourself too.


No, I am 50 y/o and its too late for me. I did try getting a job at Lowe's, working in the paint department, hoping to move up into Management one day.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Sorry, NJ

I guess I'm confused again.

I though you were one of the 20-somethings we have here...like myself *cough*


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm a painter because my Grandpa, who was a carpenter and squirrel hunter and trapper, always told me to "get a trade". Ironically, I started painting being a helper to this guy who also was a legendary trapper, lure and snare maker (not joking).

I did do the college thing, got the 4 yr piece of paper that says I graduated. Kept painting. Had to do the college thing, felt forced into it, like it was an expectation or to make Dad proud. Not sure.

College can be a good thing. There's a lot of hot young chicks around, you learn how to manage your time, follow directions, and get practice writing and reading (which aren't bad skills to have). 

I do know there are a lot of college grads looking for work and having a tough time with it, and they seemed to be lobbying to have their student loans forgiven. 

But the history of college and a "liberal arts" education was never about qualifying for particular vocations. It was to "liberate" the mind, and to help develop free thinking individuals. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind, I remember walking into the school of business building where I took most of my classes in the final years and saw on the wall his quote on what the aim of higher eduction should be. 

Then I saw how college is nowadays, it's more of a corral for industries to prep their future workers rather than to free the mind. It is what it is. 

_"Why, then, ’tis none to you, for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison." -Hamlet
_


Godspeed. 

I think I'm afraid of being in an office all day looking at a computer screen... wait, that's what I do now on PT...


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## pucks101 (Mar 29, 2012)

snkd said:


> Find a new employer. This guy is probably doing it legally, But it doesn't make it right. Find an employer who treats you like an employee. This guys set up makes you look like another sub. And in that case if you mess up or get hurt on the job its out of your pocket. There are plenty of good people in this world. Go find one to work for.


I'm not sure how it works in Canada, but in US there are many cases where even a "contractor" for tax purposes (1099 form) considered an "employee" under worker's compensation laws. 
It's a fairly confusing issue and seems like almost nobody understands it completely, so I just felt I should point out that if you get hurt in this type of situation it's not necessarily out of your pocket.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

While you are on your current job, work hard and learn as much as possible. And, while you are working at this job.........keep looking for a legitimate job with taxes being held out, overtime pay, etc.


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## HSpencer (Jan 21, 2012)

Most painters I have known will fight the game for a while, learning, and in time will spin off for themselves. Or pardner up with an equal person making a two man team.
While these are forgoing the large jobs, they are making a living. The bigger the crews the harder it is to hang in. I would rather do small jobs myself, than large jobs trying to herd a bunch of painters who played the "them against me" game. To decide, envision your potential hourly rate, and any (if any) benefits.
If you want to do real customer pleasing craftsmanship, go it alone. Charge for craftsmanship. If you just want a paycheck, stay with what your doing.
Can't comment on unions, it was 1969 the last time I was a member of one.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

So it's been a month tomorrow that I worked for this company, I think that I should be getting more than what I'm getting for the work I'm doing. Even with lack of experience $12/hr still seems low for what I do day to day. What should I do guys, not sure how to bring this up, hint at it, or just continue to wait longer. It's only been a month so I don't want to step on anyone's toes asking this already. He's never hinted at me getting more money yet. 

But I'm sanding, puddying, prep work, painted corner rounds, will soon prime baseboards, heavy lifting/cleanup, I'm doing a few things to help out and just don't feel like I should have to go for too much longer at this rate of pay.

How can I deal with this guys?


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

If you were a registered apprentice, I think the first 1000 or 2,000 hours you would be making $11-$13 an hour 
and $1 per hour goes to the union dues.
This is what one of ours is to make and she is registered.
You probably worked less than 200 hours.
I am glad this is working out great for you!


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

George Z said:


> If you were a registered apprentice, I think the first 1000 or 2,000 hours you would be making $11-$13 an hour
> and $1 per hour goes to the union dues.
> This is what one of ours is to make and she is registered.
> You probably worked less than 200 hours.
> I am glad this is working out great for you!


She's getting $11 to $13 in her pay your saying same as him about. O.K. But what is her whole package paying? Health insurance, pension, inuities, unemployment compensation? She's winning.


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## ImagelinePainting (Jun 18, 2010)

Wanttopaint, i think you should stop complaining. There are people here that started years ago with a way lower wage and they just made their way up. Find a different job if you think you are underpaid.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Oden said:


> She's getting $11 to $13 in her pay your saying same as him about. O.K. But what is her whole package paying? Health insurance, pension, inuities, unemployment compensation? She's winning.


Yes, she would likely be ahead at the end.
We are allowed to have her do her apprenticeship with us, 
even if we are a non union contractor.
The way I see it is, why not get some help training a few people properly.
Also our benefits are comparable to the union ones (after 90 days)


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

George Z said:


> If you were a registered apprentice, I think the first 1000 or 2,000 hours you would be making $11-$13 an hour
> and $1 per hour goes to the union dues.
> This is what one of ours is to make and she is registered.
> You probably worked less than 200 hours.
> I am glad this is working out great for you!


Thanks George, it's going good so far. I like that it's mostly commercial work, the time just seems to fly by with this work. Do you think it's worth it for me to join a union? What about registering hours. The way it works for me right now is I get a check but no pay stub, there is just a time sheet I fill out and give them. Will I have to ask him to sign off on my hours every week in order to qualify?


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

So I asked the guy that trains me about the union, and he's been mocking me about ever since. Says you don't join a union if your job is not part of any union. Is this right? He says there is no reason to join a union and you would waste your money.

I also found out how much some of the more experienced guys get paid. I saw his check and it was for almost $1300, more than double what I get. 

I'm glad to be given the opportunity, but still feel for what I do the pay should be at least $1-2 more. But I guess I have to just accept this for my role right now. I know my main concern should be to get the experience. I hope I could one day be one of his high earners like the other few.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

wanttopaint said:


> So I asked the guy that trains me about the union, and he's been mocking me about ever since. Says you don't join a union if your job is not part of any union. Is this right? He says there is no reason to join a union and you would waste your money.
> 
> I also found out how much some of the more experienced guys get paid. I saw his check and it was for almost $1300, more than double what I get.
> 
> I'm glad to be given the opportunity, but still feel for what I do the pay should be at least $1-2 more. But I guess I have to just accept this for my role right now. I know my main concern should be to get the experience. I hope I could one day be one of his high earners like the other few.


Keep doing what your doing and a few years up the road you should be EARNING that wage.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

wanttopaint said:


> So I asked the guy that trains me about the union, and he's been mocking me about ever since. Says you don't join a union if your job is not part of any union. Is this right? He says there is no reason to join a union and you would waste your money.
> 
> I also found out how much some of the more experienced guys get paid. I saw his check and it was for almost $1300, more than double what I get.
> 
> I'm glad to be given the opportunity, but still feel for what I do the pay should be at least $1-2 more. But I guess I have to just accept this for my role right now. I know my main concern should be to get the experience. I hope I could one day be one of his high earners like the other few.


wanttopaint,

I would say that your trainer is correct. If the company you're working for is a non union entity, then it would make perfect sense that they wouldn't be interested in a union sponsored apprenticeship program.

Unions are not a panacea, and you'll find that a lot of Journey painters are unemployed during lean times. As an employee myself, I would recommend that you focus on your current situation. That includes showing up to work on time, following instructions, and learn as much as possible. Your current situation may not be ideal at the moment, but does allow the perfect opportunity to construct a career plan. Set some obtainable goals in a realistic time frame. When you reach those goals make an assessment and move forward to the next. Always be planning.

And finally, stop whining to coworkers about union this and union that. It does no good for the company you're working for and they WILL recognize that.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

CApainter said:


> wanttopaint,
> 
> I would say that your trainer is correct. If the company you're working for is a non union entity, then it would make perfect sense that they wouldn't be interested in a union sponsored apprenticeship program.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advise. I wasn't whining, I simply asked him for advise if I should be looking at a union to join and how it all works. Just to see if it would benefit me at all to join one. Main reason I thought it would be a good idea is I at least would have documented hours and be given raises when I should. My current situation, I don't know when I will get a raise and how my boss will handle that. I never brought it up, not sure how I will bring this up.

Should I mention this to him on how he intends to deal with my pay increases, or should I just ignore that and maybe bring it up when I get closer to 2000 hours worked? 6 months, 12 months?


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

wanttopaint said:


> Try not to laugh, but my background is working in the computer graphics field, office work, and customer service. .


wanttopaint - imagine if in your last job, the boss gave you a paycheck and didn't pay taxes... and no OT... and no benefits, etc.

we've all probably worked 'under the table' at one time or other... but then it was CASH. the guy you are working for, seems to be a large legit business, 10 story hotels and such... why is he trying to screw you? is that 20 yr painter getting paid the same way?

the larger question - what if you get hurt on the job!!! you certainly don't have your own disability insurance, correct? ask him about that.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

You may very well be working harder than you ever have and making not so much money. Your pay isn't based upon how hard you work necessarily moreso than how much of a "finished" quality product you produce in a certain amount of time. Your boss sells time irregardless of the ethics of his pay system. If you don't produce that finished product or some other of his employees have to stop what they are doing to help you or point you in some direction that is costing the boss money rather than making him money. That equals no room for asking for a raise irregardless of how much sweat you drip in a day. Attitude goes a long long way in me keeping someone with a low skillset around. Ask for a raise and that is a fast track to seeking employment somewhere else when dealing with a jerk like me. Your boss is likely fully aware of what you produce as well as lost time spent fixing mistakes and time doing unnecessary chores just for the sake of keeping you busy. It is a business not a charity and before sticking your hand out asking for more you might want to try first giving a little more yourself. If you truly do extra when you can and seek attaining the skills of a painter, yet that goes unrecognized then yes you should find another outfit. Two weeks is hardly enough of an investment from you to go asking for anything IMO. This is common sense basics really. Knowing the other guys paychecks and just generally the gist I am getting is you like your hand held a bit. If you think you can trust a union more than your current boss then go see what happens. 

Happy Sunday


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

rjensen ptg said:


> wanttopaint - imagine if in your last job, the boss gave you a paycheck and didn't pay taxes... and no OT... and no benefits, etc.
> 
> we've all probably worked 'under the table' at one time or other... but then it was CASH. the guy you are working for, seems to be a large legit business, 10 story hotels and such... why is he trying to screw you? is that 20 yr painter getting paid the same way?
> 
> the larger question - what if you get hurt on the job!!! you certainly don't have your own disability insurance, correct? ask him about that.


rjensen makes a good point, but the reality is a lot of people are working off the books in this current economic situation. Also, painting is a lot different then a corporate setting where the company may be too large or scrutinized to fly under the radar. 

There are more contractors out there, then we'd like to think, that are circumventing the required deductions in order to compete. It is certainly a risky proposition for all parties concerned, but times are tough, and risks may be the only alternative.

Keep in mind that you don't have to work for this particular employer, and he doesn't have to employ you. If it's not an ideal situation to begin with, what do you have to lose by making some reasonable requests. However, if you can't afford to risk losing this current source of income, I'd be inclined to follow the program until you settle in.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

rjensen ptg said:


> wanttopaint - imagine if in your last job, the boss gave you a paycheck and didn't pay taxes... and no OT... and no benefits, etc.
> 
> we've all probably worked 'under the table' at one time or other... but then it was CASH. the guy you are working for, seems to be a large legit business, 10 story hotels and such... why is he trying to screw you? is that 20 yr painter getting paid the same way?
> 
> the larger question - what if you get hurt on the job!!! you certainly don't have your own disability insurance, correct? ask him about that.


There was actually a guy that broke his heel due to his own stupidity, and the owner now has to pay for his medical expenses, not sure how much he's responsible for, but there was a meeting we recently had about safety and he gave us a few pages to look through on work place saftey, this is where he mentioned about a guy out for 3-4 months or longer because he stupidly fell off a ladder, and he said he was responsible for his expenses now. But maybe I should still ask about it.




CApainter said:


> rjensen makes a good point, but the reality is a lot of people are working off the books in this current economic situation. Also, painting is a lot different then a corporate setting where the company may be too large or scrutinized to fly under the radar.
> 
> There are more contractors out there, then we'd like to think, that are circumventing the required deductions in order to compete. It is certainly a risky proposition for all parties concerned, but times are tough, and risks may be the only alternative.
> 
> Keep in mind that you don't have to work for this particular employer, and he doesn't have to employ you. If it's not an ideal situation to begin with, what do you have to lose by making some reasonable requests. However, if you can't afford to risk losing this current source of income, I'd be inclined to follow the program until you settle in.


I would like to get as much experience as I can from this, so I think I wont ask about wage increases and how he plans to handle it. I don't want to rub these guys the wrong way, maybe it's best to work under the same wage for the first 2000 hours than ask after than. I have made quite a few mistakes, so bringing this up would probably have him scratching his head. Though I have been reliable, I always do what I'm asked, always show up to work on time.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

We all know some outfits just operate like that. If you ask too many questions, he's likely to let you go; he'll go find someone else who will deal with it. You want to be very careful working in this situation, because if you get hurt you'll be in a bad spot. You haven't been working for him long enough for him to pay much attention to what you want. 
If you decide to stay in this situation, you can probably expect to make what you are making for at least 6 months. Also, you can expect to be doing a bulk of the more labor intensive stuff for a while. That's what he hired you for. The longer you are doing it though, the smarter you will get about how you approach your tasks. That's called experience, and it is worth more money.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> You may very well be working harder than you ever have and making not so much money. Your pay isn't based upon how hard you work necessarily moreso than how much of a "finished" quality product you produce in a certain amount of time. Your boss sells time irregardless of the ethics of his pay system. *If you don't produce that finished product or some other of his employees have to stop what they are doing to help you or point you in some direction that is costing the boss money rather than making him money. That equals no room for asking for a raise irregardless of how much sweat you drip in a day. *Attitude goes a long long way in me keeping someone with a low skillset around. Ask for a raise and that is a fast track to seeking employment somewhere else when dealing with a jerk like me. Your boss is likely fully aware of what you produce as well as lost time spent fixing mistakes and time doing unnecessary chores just for the sake of keeping you busy. It is a business not a charity and before sticking your hand out asking for more you might want to try first giving a little more yourself. If you truly do extra when you can and seek attaining the skills of a painter, yet that goes unrecognized then yes you should find another outfit. Two weeks is hardly enough of an investment from you to go asking for anything IMO. This is common sense basics really. Knowing the other guys paychecks and just generally the gist I am getting is you like your hand held a bit. If you think you can trust a union more than your current boss then go see what happens.
> 
> Happy Sunday


I think I have been decent with working alone. A lot of days I'm working and I only see the foreman that trains me on our breaks and lunches. He's doing his thing, and I'm doing mine.





caulktheline said:


> We all know some outfits just operate like that. If you ask too many questions, he's likely to let you go; he'll go find someone else who will deal with it. You want to be very careful working in this situation, because if you get hurt you'll be in a bad spot. You haven't been working for him long enough for him to pay much attention to what you want.
> If you decide to stay in this situation, you can probably expect to make what you are making for at least 6 months. Also, you can expect to be doing a bulk of the more labor intensive stuff for a while. That's what he hired you for. The longer you are doing it though, the smarter you will get about how you approach your tasks. That's called experience, and it is worth more money.


Yeah this is what's troubling. I may have concerns but may need to hold it to myself, I'm too easily replaceable right now. Maybe it wouldn't be too much of a risk to ask about it at the end of the year. It would be 7 months at that time.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Honestly it sounds like you want to work for a company that has systems already in place regarding time on job and pay increases etc... Maybe one day you will create your very own. Some do but not too awful many paint companies have guidelines like this in place. If you can make up some good ones that fit paint contracting specifically, I'll buy it so I can use it. It would simplify things most likely. Remove the whole dealing with being asked and having to answer why.. Ahhh wouldnt that be a treat? Find a legitimate place to go work in case you get hurt at this one.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> rjensen makes a good point, but the reality is a lot of people are working off the books in this current economic situation. Also, painting is a lot different then a corporate setting where the company may be too large or scrutinized to fly under the radar.
> 
> There are more contractors out there, then we'd like to think, that are circumventing the required deductions in order to compete. It is certainly a risky proposition for all parties concerned, but times are tough, and risks may be the only alternative.
> 
> Keep in mind that you don't have to work for this particular employer, and he doesn't have to employ you. If it's not an ideal situation to begin with, what do you have to lose by making some reasonable requests. However, if you can't afford to risk losing this current source of income, I'd be inclined to follow the program until you settle in.


A house painter paying his guys cash after forty or not claiming every house he paints is one thing. Commercial NC is a whole other animal. And in either case from the workers standpoint cash means cash. Pictures of dead presidents. untraceable. The money man holds the bag on that one-period.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> A house painter paying his guys cash after forty or not claiming every house he paints is one thing. Commercial NC is a whole other animal. And in either case from the workers standpoint cash means cash. Pictures of dead presidents. untraceable. The money man holds the bag on that one-period.


You're right Oden. I do think wanttopaint is being taken advantage of. He needs to decide just how long his current economic situation will allow him to be taken advantaged of. 

Employees like me sometimes just don't have the leverage we would like. Sure, you can negotiate when you can provide more production for your employer, but that takes experience, and the newbies just don't have that for the most part. You really do have to fight for what you want at the risk of being unemployed. 

If the construction industry were truly dominated by ethical employers as yourself, or if all employees were protected by collective bargaining as myself, this wouldn't be an issue. But the real world says, as long as you can hire illegals for cash, why not pay your legal citizens under the table too.


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## valuepro (Mar 21, 2010)

wanttopaint said:


> This will be a problem I guess.  There is no stub. I just have a little time sheet I fill in with my hours, but there are no signatures or anything, and I include an invoice sheet of what I'm owed every week. I'm not charged any tax, or any other deductions. Sorry for the spelling lol.


Don't bother with asking for a raise, ask to learn more instead and be persistant. Your a cash under the table helper which means you won't get more cash because they can hire someone else in an instant. What you need to do is use the job to learn. Ask to prep, roll, cut...Your boss will think your someone to take advantage off as a painter and teach you, then more on to a real company that treats you like an employee with deductions.

Its a foot in the door, but don't look to get $$$ out of this boss, but you can get learning experience.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

I tell all new apprentices....Just work hard, pay attention, and carry a 5 in 1, duster, razor knife, and also dont forget to carry a rag soaked in mineral spirits in your back pocket


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

snkd said:


> Find a new employer. This guy is probably doing it legally, But it doesn't make it right. Find an employer who treats you like an employee. This guys set up makes you look like another sub. And in that case if you mess up or get hurt on the job its out of your pocket. There are plenty of good people in this world. Go find one to work for.


I agree. At that pay rate you are going to get the dirty end of the poo poo stick come April. 

If you introduce yourself with your pants pulled up and look eager to work there are *MANY *contractors that will take you under their wing.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I really do appreciate it. I am really starting to see the cons of working in commercial painting. (Not that I didn't expect there to be cons to the job.) Me and one of the owners got into it a little today and we both were raising our voice at eachother. 

Essentially I was given crap for doing a job I was told to do. Some of the carpenters didn't install everything that needed to be installed so I was told when I seen that I shouldn't have touched it even though I was told to do it. He also went on about how long it's taking to get those things done.

I think I got lucky to have someone that is willing to train me, so I will stick with this. The job can be really tough. When I'm doing prep work like today and wearing a respirator and sweating like crazy It's when I tend to question my pay. Nothing I can do about that, just need to focus on getting the experience. I applied to many apprentice jobs, but this is what I was able to get.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> Thanks for all the advice everyone, I really do appreciate it. I am really starting to see the cons of working in commercial painting. (Not that I didn't expect there to be cons to the job.) Me and one of the owners got into it a little today and we both were raising our voice at eachother.
> 
> Essentially I was given crap for doing a job I was told to do. Some of the carpenters didn't install everything that needed to be installed so I was told when I seen that I shouldn't have touched it even though I was told to do it. He also went on about how long it's taking to get those things done.
> 
> I think I got lucky to have someone that is willing to train me, so I will stick with this. The job can be really tough. When I'm doing prep work like today and wearing a respirator and sweating like crazy It's when I tend to question my pay. Nothing I can do about that, just need to focus on getting the experience. I applied to many apprentice jobs, but this is what I was able to get.


Everyone starts at the bottom at some point. Stick with it and you will gain knowledge and experience.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

Rule # 1 the boss is always right. Rule # 2 when the boss is wrong refer to rule # 1.

Wanttopaint this was on every superintendents wall when I came up through the ranks.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

some advice on how to handle the owner of a commercial painting company free of charge:
Never volunteer information.
Answer any questions with a "yes" or "no"
If pressed for more than a "yes" or "no", tell him what he wants to hear, no matter how absurd what he wants to hear may be.
Realize that no matter how fast you go, how talented you are, and how many "cheats" you find and use for him that you will never go fast enough and produce enough. Every job loses money.
If you may have made a misstep in your hurry to pull off yet another miracle and you are confronted- Deny. Deny. Deny.
Don't let him run the job from the office. Run your own job. But at some points he will insist you perform some task some certain way that will seem absurd. Object one time and voice your concerns one time. He may insist. Do what he told you to do. It may blow up in his face which will be your face because he's at the office and the explosion will occur on the job. Aplogize for doing exactly what he told you to do.
Never forget that his is a business. He is a business man. He is not a painter. If he was at one time he is not anymore. He looks at you like a coach may look at a player. If he thinks he can upgrade your position he will. If you have a job to go to tommorow then congratulations you are still the best available player for that pay at that position available. Keep cashin em.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Oden said:


> some advice on how to handle the owner of a commercial painting company free of charge:
> Never volunteer information.
> Answer any questions with a "yes" or "no"
> If pressed for more than a "yes" or "no", tell him what he wants to hear, no matter how absurd what he wants to hear may be.
> ...


I am starting to believe this. I am really not sure if this going to work out with this guy. He told me today and this was the 2nd time, that he thinks this isn't for me. He says me on the construction sites that I feel like I'm out of place here still. I've gotten words of encouragement from my foreman that I'm doing good, he does lay it to me sometimes too for stupid things I done, but I at least get a "good job", "your doing good" from him once in a while. But I get no words of encouragement from the owner. He tells me I'm not doing enough, yells at me for not doing something but it was the foreman who told me not to do it and help him do something else. I'm trying to please everyone and don't know how to make everyone happy. I brought this up to him today but he didn't really offer me a solution.

One big problem with this guy is he cant get passed that I am wanting to do this work and I have a diploma. I worked in another field mostly office work but it didn't work out for me and I want to try this. He went on about how painting is for people with little education, people that did drugs, people without degrees ect. He asked me why painting, why not an electrician. I don't know if he can get passed that I want to settle for painting, or at least continue to try.

He goes on about how I come into work not looking happy. I'm going through some stress doing something new, I have to talk to him every day about what I did, take heat for not doing enough or doing something else I was told to do, I'm paid very little, and I'm working a 7 day week this week. Am I supposed to show up to work thrilled.... I'm doing the best I can and giving 110% I feel, sometimes not even taking my last break, but it doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe the stress is much higher for a bigger company like this and this is to be expected.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Hang or don't hang. He may be trying to check you on that.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Bossman is trying to make you crack. Just do you best and if it doesnt work out, you got paid to learn some skills. So far you are an unknown factor, and he thinks that you are barely worth a double digit hourly. All he can see is if he had some other guy doing your job he would make a little more. I have been looked on this way, and now I look on new hires like this sometimes....


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

wanttopaint said:


> I am starting to believe this. I am really not sure if this going to work out with this guy. He told me today and this was the 2nd time, that he thinks this isn't for me. He says me on the construction sites that I feel like I'm out of place here still. I've gotten words of encouragement from my foreman that I'm doing good, he does lay it to me sometimes too for stupid things I done, but I at least get a "good job", "your doing good" from him once in a while. But I get no words of encouragement from the owner. He tells me I'm not doing enough, yells at me for not doing something but it was the foreman who told me not to do it and help him do something else. I'm trying to please everyone and don't know how to make everyone happy. I brought this up to him today but he didn't really offer me a solution.
> 
> One big problem with this guy is he cant get passed that I am wanting to do this work and I have a diploma. I worked in another field mostly office work but it didn't work out for me and I want to try this. He went on about how painting is for people with little education, people that did drugs, people without degrees ect. He asked me why painting, why not an electrician. I don't know if he can get passed that I want to settle for painting, or at least continue to try.
> 
> He goes on about how I come into work not looking happy. I'm going through some stress doing something new, I have to talk to him every day about what I did, take heat for not doing enough or doing something else I was told to do, I'm paid very little, and I'm working a 7 day week this week. Am I supposed to show up to work thrilled.... I'm doing the best I can and giving 110% I feel, sometimes not even taking my last break, but it doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe the stress is much higher for a bigger company like this and this is to be expected.


 what about the ones who still do drugs


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

welcome to the real world son.
suck it up or quit.
if you want more money, say so. you will get it or you wont. then decide if you are staying or leaving.
take the boss's crap or dont. you seem a little whiny and high maintenance. a well timed 'f' you at the guy might earn u a little respect.

they might be bored and jerking you around for entertainment

it's all part of the game dude. learn to play it


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

bigjeffie61520 said:


> welcome to the real world son.
> suck it up or quit.
> if you want more money, say so. you will get it or you wont. then decide if you are staying or leaving.
> take the boss's crap or dont. you seem a little whiny and high maintenance. a well timed 'f' you at the guy might earn u a little respect.
> ...


I totally agree. Maybe you arent cut out to be doing this type of work. You need to have thick skin. If someone was laying into me, I would give it right back to him. Maybe he would respect you more.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

scottjr said:


> I totally agree. Maybe you arent cut out to be doing this type of work. You need to have thick skin. If someone was laying into me, I would give it right back to him. Maybe he would respect you more.


I think I have been a little more aggressive in my tone. Now I actually raise my voice at him just as he does to me. Before I would just say sorry. Now I'll actually argue with him back. I'm starting to embrace it a little more I think.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Coming from an office background as you do, I can see why it might be a little off putting to have your boss act/talk negatively towards you. I did not always work in the trades either, and the way many trade business owners speak to employees would get them sh!t canned in the office world. So you may not be used to it. A good attitude and work ethic trumps an ability to act/talk tough back to your boss. Especially since you probably aren't used to that either, and you might really put your foot in your mouth talking tough or f bombing him. Just a thought.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Yeah it's a whole new world for me. That's what people need to understand that my mindset is different coming from office work. I'll only argue back if I feel it's necessary, it would probably take a lot for me to throw f bombs. I feel like I do have a good attitude, but my work ethic needs to be improved in terms of how fast I get things done. Not only that I'm very forgetful, I'm mocked because of this all the time. The owner asked me if I wanted to write down what he was telling me lol.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I worked on a crew where the boss wrote "prime THEN caulk" on this clown's arm with a sharpie. Awesome.


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## bigjeffie61520 (Oct 3, 2009)

i would like to add...you are probably doing fine.
if you are there every day, and tryin g to do a good job, which it sounds like you are, then you are earning respect for sure.

a little good natured back talk, well placed, is what i was referring too.

i would think you are up for a token increase by now. overworking a detail is a sign of a good hand in the making, and they know that.

just as they seek to keep you from growing complacent with criticism, you will find a way to keep from being taken for granted.

you are being seasoned into a good painter. keep working. the picture will keep getting clearer

a month from now, you will be amused, looking back, at what you thought you knew. if you do return to the office, you will have grown in ways you may not suspect.

if you want more money, ask. if you get it, you will hear more grief, as the bar will be raised


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## PhillysFinest (Jun 9, 2012)

wanttopaint said:


> I was just wondering how I should deal with asking the owner for raises, do I even ask when the time comes, or will he tell me my pay will be increased once more responsibilities are met? It's only been 2 weeks.


Dude, you just started working and you already are thinking of a raise? haha..
Try putting in 6 months, as a dependable employee, that has proven to the company, that he has potential, before you even think about the word "raise"! 



wanttopaint said:


> Another question I have. Should I join the painting union and ask my boss if he can sign off on all the hours I am working to show the union that I join? Is it worth it for me in the long run to be part of a painting union?


In short, "you have to know somebody!" Its hard to join a union, if you don't know someone in the union!

*Go get a job working overnight at Walmart - they pay over $12.00 for overnight stock. Then shoot for a manager job!


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Im tending to agree with bigjeffie and scott here..theres a certain point where you have to give someone some chit back or they will walk all over you. One thing i've really learned recently is sometimes its just better to walk away from a situation if you dont agree with it. 

To be honest idk why you want to get into painting? do you want your own company? Only way to really make it in this industry is to go off on your own. 

Not everyone is cut out for it. I know im probably not going to be able to sit in an office all day, definitley not a corporate office.

I got into painting intitially because i needed money and it was a job. I ended up liking it and went into business(something i wanted before painting). To be honest i still enjoy painting, but at this point idk if i want to make it a career. 

Sometimes you need someone to point out what it is, before you realize it yourself. If people around you are telling you what they observe it really might be true, and you just might be too bullheaded to see it. You have yourself convinced otherwise. I know ive been guilty of that on more than one occassion. 

Honestly if you want to keep doing it suck it up. Life isnt nice or fair, and no one is going to give a chit about your diploma in construction. Right now you are the guy comming out of the office, white collar trying to kick it with blue collar. He is testing you, and you are breaking.

Keep your head up man, keep learning and working hard. Stay positive, if its something you like go with it if not dont force it you will end up unhappy in the end. Worst case scenario if it end up not working out for you is you have a new appreciation. If it does great.


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## Finn (Dec 18, 2011)

kdpaint said:


> I worked on a crew where the boss wrote "prime THEN caulk" on this clown's arm with a sharpie. Awesome.


and effective I bet!!


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

Thought I'd post an update in here since this was bumped. Unfortunately this has not gone as well as I had hoped. My boss doesn't seem to be happy with me so far, I'm told I'm too slow and the classic "I **** the dog that everyone seems to say in this trade" I don't screw around, it seems that way because I'm slow and some things don't get done as fast as he wants.

Another issue is that I'm still not trusted to do other things other than sand, fill holes in baseboards, and prep work. It's been 3 months and I only painted a few times, and he wont let me do any caulking. I cant ever get good in this work if I'm not given a chance to try. When I'm told to paint it's for like 1 or 2 days, than I don't paint again for like a month or 2 months later. For me to get better at it I need to be doing it more frequently.

I wonder if maybe being in commercial painting is what's hurting me from progressing. He gets big jobs. Condo's, Hotels, Buildings, Banks, ect. He has a big reputation to protect, maybe working for someone smaller would actually be a good thing. I just don't really know what the future would be for this company for me.

I was excited when I got the job, but now it's like I feel less enthused with each passing day.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

wanttopaint said:


> Thought I'd post an update in here since this was bumped. Unfortunately this has not gone as well as I had hoped. My boss doesn't seem to be happy with me so far, I'm told I'm too slow and the classic "I **** the dog that everyone seems to say in this trade" I don't screw around, it seems that way because I'm slow and some things don't get done as fast as he wants.
> 
> Another issue is that I'm still not trusted to do other things other than sand, fill holes in baseboards, and prep work. It's been 3 months and I only painted a few times, and he wont let me do any caulking. I cant ever get good in this work if I'm not given a chance to try. When I'm told to paint it's for like 1 or 2 days, than I don't paint again for like a month or 2 months later. For me to get better at it I need to be doing it more frequently.
> 
> ...


Wanttopaint,

Three months isn't even close to the six month probation period many companies require. You're in the "Dip" right now. Stick it out if you can. If you were really as bad as they're making you out to be, you'd be fired by now.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

WTP,
Three months is not very long, stick it out or find another guy to teach you. Many bosses in this trade will tell you that you are not fast enough and need to pick up the pace to get your mind thinking you need to be faster which you probably do but these things come with practice. A bit surprised about not being taught to caulk yet though as that is an area of prep that goes with this level of learning. 

Don't get discouraged just keep trying to improve, pride in workmanship is a fading trait in so many areas these days so keep learning all you can and the more practice you get the more responsibilities you will earn.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

Chit or get off the pot. If you're told to putty holes, be the best puttying sob on the job.


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## Westview (Jul 23, 2011)

Hang in there pal. I've worked for douchbags before and it sucks. Try not to let him get to you. Have confidence in yourself. I too came from working a white collar job and into blue collar work. Blue collar work is much more enjoyable. Hang in there.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

When I was a kid working with my Dad he treated me the same way. The only thing I was allowed to do was roll. He would cut and I would roll and roll then roll some more. I wasn't allowed to touch a brush or spackle. I made sure I was the best at rolling and perfected it. 

One day he had to run out to the store for supplies. I finished rolling what he had cut and there was nothing left for me to do. So I took the "forbidden" brush and cut a room. I cut it in damn good. He came back was initially mad that I had cut in thinking he'd have a mess to fix. He saw it said good job and I've been slinging a brush ever since. 

The point is sometimes you just have to take the initiative and prove yourself. As for being called slow, don't worry about it. Speed comes with experience as with anything in life the more you do it the faster you get.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

What city in Ontario do you live?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

delayed response I know, but here goes... 

I sanded woodwork on 15000+ sq ft homes for years. You are learning more than you know. You are just too green to realize it. I would give nearly anything to have paid better attention to everything around me when working for my former employer. Had I had a clue I was going to be a professional painter for the long haul, i would have soaked up every detail of my earlier years. You are in a position to learn a different side of painting that most remodel painters never see. Suck it up, buttercup.


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## wanttopaint (Nov 5, 2011)

wje said:


> What city in Ontario do you live?


I'm in Toronto.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

wanttopaint said:


> I'm in Toronto.


When I lived in Ottawa and was looking for a job years back, I was in the same situation as you are with the payment situation.

I found most companies weren't set up as real business' and tried to convince me to be a "sub contractor". It is a bogus way of doing things as no self emplyed worker would bill themselves out at $12/hour. 

It is saving your emplyer from having to match your cpp contributions, and your EI contributions which means if he fired you or you quit you will not be eligible for any type of assistance. 

It also sounds like he isn't paying WSIB for any of his workers which is illegal. All subs either need a clearance certificate which is obtained by about a 15 page questionaire, or he needs to be covering you. He definately should be covering you if nothing else. 

Sounds like a mickey mouse operation to me. Sure he has some big contracts, but one CRA or WSIB Audit will set him back LARGE.

If I were you I would continue working there while searching for a real apprenticeship. All he is looking for out of you is a labourer who isn't going to move up, but just become a better labourer. He needs you to do your role, and everybody else has to fill their role. Because you are not a legit employee, he has no reason he can not get rid of you in a blink and have to do any paper work.

Anyways, best of luck, and I hope you can find a painting job with a company that is willing to train you properly.


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