# water-based primer on oil enamel?



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Owner is sensitive to fumes. 

I usually prime an oil enamel with an oil-based primer, because I don't trust the bond with water-based primers. In this instance the owner is sensitive to fumes, and that will not work this time. 

*Question: *
In your opinion, can I "scuff sand and prime" an oil enamel (tradition oil paint) with a water-based primer?


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

I have very successfully used Stix over oil even without sanding/deglossing. Though I usually sand anyway as a matter of best practice. But I tried it on some crown without sanding and it was great. Full adhesion does take a day or two. If you're worried and have the slack in the schedule, you could hit some test spots to put your mind at ease.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Yep, Stix. Was a firm believer in Bull 123 for many years, but over the past few years it's let me down too many times. Tried stix and love it. Doesn't do anything for stains, but that's not it's purpose.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

XIM UMA is like stix as well.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stix or fresh start 046 works fine too.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

BM is not an option - asking in a generic sense if a water-base primer over oil enamel creates a strong bond.
Sounds like the answer is yes. ?


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Holland said:


> BM is not an option - asking in a generic sense if a water-base primer over oil enamel creates a strong bond.
> Sounds like the answer is yes. ?


I would not say that all water-based primers would. But yeah - there are now good options out there.


----------



## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> Owner is sensitive to fumes.
> 
> I usually prime an oil enamel with an oil-based primer, because I don't trust the bond with water-based primers. In this instance the owner is sensitive to fumes, and that will not work this time.
> 
> ...


All the following water based bonding primers have been MPI tested and approved for use over cured glossy alkyd finishes, although I would scuff sand first:

MPI # 17


----------



## Joe67 (Aug 12, 2016)

Redux said:


> All the following water based bonding primers have been MPI tested and approved for use over cured glossy alkyd finishes, although I would scuff sand first:
> 
> MPI # 17


Awesome resource. Odd that Stix isn't on the list...


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> All the following water based bonding primers have been MPI tested and approved for use over cured glossy alkyd finishes, although I would scuff sand first:
> 
> MPI # 17


Thank you.


----------



## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Redux said:


> All the following water based bonding primers have been MPI tested and approved for use over cured glossy alkyd finishes, although I would scuff sand first:
> 
> MPI # 17


Stix isn't on there but SW Pro Block is? No way I'm trusting that product.


----------



## celicaxx (May 29, 2015)

If you wanna go halfway, there's always BIN. Not too smelly, but it works. Also thin, doesn't really leave brush marks, and sands the best of any primer around. I've never had people really complain too much about using BIN, but Kilz and Cover Stain they have most definitely complained. I think with BIN you could get away without sanding as long as everything was clean, too. I used BIN on varnished/polyed? oak recently without sanding and it adhered great.

I think with WB primers they always say they need 2-3 days to cure before you can really judge adhesion. So if you go for those common products and use them, you can test like that and see. Even with Fresh Start 046 I'd sometimes have adhesion issues after just a day, but usually they do lock down after 3 or so. They sort of say the same thing with stains, too. I had a surprise of sorts using 1-2-3 and Problock on stains recently, I did a big popcorn removal in my own house and used too much water and ended up staining my own walls somehow, and the stains went through 1 coat of Problock, but seemed to die down with the second coat of Bullseye applied a day between each other. I've never actually used a waterbased product expecting it to block stains, but it did.

I've used Insl-X Aqua-Lock but can't judge long term adhesion really. I used it on garage doors with some sort of factory coating with Aura Ext. as a top coat and it seemed to do fine. I picked at both after 1-2 hours dried or the next day and everything was pretty solidly adhered. I think the Aqua-Lock could be a stronger bonding primer than Stix. Doors had no sanding done, just cleaned with Krud Cutter. We tried liquid deglosser on one or two doors but it did nothing.

I really wanna try the new PPG Gripper at HD. Only $25 a gallon. I like SW Problock more than 1-2-3 now as Problock is less translucent, 1-2-3 is pretty much translucent now. My price is $1-2 cheaper at SW, too. Gripper even says it can seal in stains and nicotine, which would be neato from a WB product I can buy at any HD.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

celicaxx said:


> If you wanna go halfway, there's always BIN. Not too smelly, but it works. Also thin, doesn't really leave brush marks, and sands the best of any primer around. I've never had people really complain too much about using BIN, but Kilz and Cover Stain they have most definitely complained. I think with BIN you could get away without sanding as long as everything was clean, too. I used BIN on varnished/polyed? oak recently without sanding and it adhered great.
> 
> I think with WB primers they always say they need 2-3 days to cure before you can really judge adhesion. So if you go for those common products and use them, you can test like that and see. Even with Fresh Start 046 I'd sometimes have adhesion issues after just a day, but usually they do lock down after 3 or so. They sort of say the same thing with stains, too. I had a surprise of sorts using 1-2-3 and Problock on stains recently, I did a big popcorn removal in my own house and used too much water and ended up staining my own walls somehow, and the stains went through 1 coat of Problock, but seemed to die down with the second coat of Bullseye applied a day between each other. I've never actually used a waterbased product expecting it to block stains, but it did.
> 
> ...


BIN is not an option*. 

*Very stinky and highly flammable (60% alcohol, heavier than air, potential to collect in low spots) - hard pass.


----------



## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Woodco said:


> XIM UMA is like stix as well.


UMA works well. I don't have stix but everyone here likes it. SW Extreme Bond has worked well for me also. I always scuff and clean first.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Gwarel said:


> UMA works well. I don't have stix but everyone here likes it. SW Extreme Bond has worked well for me also. I always scuff and clean first.


I think Stix and UMA are basically the same thing. Urethane Modified Acrylic.


----------



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Joe67 said:


> Awesome resource. Odd that Stix isn't on the list...


Agreed. I trust Stix almost as much as BIN for adhesion. I will say the PPG seal grip is on that list and it failed 2 tests in my shop horribly..


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm glad to see Zinsser Bullseye 123 is on the list. I' m wondering if Stix is not on the list because it is not considered an emulsifying primer per the following MPI statement concerning the primers listed:

This primer is not intended for use over bare cedar or redwood or any other woods containing extractable staining materials.


----------



## cardgunner (Feb 29, 2016)

I just got done with half a house using stix over oil and it worked great. I did scuff it before. Actually I also washed and rinsed it after the scuff. It sands well also.


----------



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I'm glad to see Zinsser Bullseye 123 is on the list. I' m wondering if Stix is not on the list because it is not considered an emulsifying primer per the following MPI statement concerning the primers listed:
> 
> This primer is not intended for use over bare cedar or redwood or any other woods containing extractable staining materials.


I ended up using 123. Scuff sanded, primed and painted. I do like 123 for its leveling qualities. I was also glad to see it on the list - peace of mind. 

Cabinets were about 100 years old, with enough layers of paint that tannin bleed was not an issue.


----------

