# Lady didn't want to pay



## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Because she didn't like the color on her house. She picked BM Shaker Beige with white trim.

It was an aluminum bungalow with attached garage. We did a great job. The first day, she was there when we prepped and sprayed the window casings white.

The next day, we sprayed the siding but she was out of town. We finish the job and she calls me this morning to tell me she doesn't like the color and can't pay for it.

Well, I can take a lot of [email protected]@t, but if you mess with my money, you unleash the beast. 

I had to wind up raising my voice to the highest level. She picked the color, not me, but she said it was too yellow and she told me no yellow.

I told her I was not responsible for the color, she picked it. She told me she consulted me on it. I told her that I told her to get sample paint and put a few swatches on the house. She didn't do that. Said she didn't need to.

There was about six weeks time in between her signing the contract, and us starting the work. She didn't pick the color until the day we pressure washed it.

I told her I can repaint the siding, but she needs to pay me for the work done first. And that there would be another charge to repaint. 

After some back and forth she broke down and told me to come over for the check.

Now I have to hope that it clears.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

THE reason to never get between a client and their paint color. I am (I hope somewhat humorously) known for dancing around when people ask for color recommendations. 
Hope you can make it clear that your job is applicator, and you applied what she asked for. 
Decorator is another profession.


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## dercy (Jul 9, 2010)

Never never pick a colour!!!guide them ina direction but never never pick the colour.......I learned that the hard way too


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

This is the main reason, I would rather do commerical jobs with an architect. It is totally her fault, and she should pay. You aren't a mind reader. I would rather not deal with homeowners. The nice thing on commercial is that it is speced, and in writing. If there is a change, send through the change order. In residential, there is way too much gray area. The same thing goes for design build jobs also. They are the same way.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Residential is not that bad, this is the first time this has happened in my ten years in business.

If I picked the color, and told her it would look great, then it would be my problem. 

But I didn't, I handed her the color books, and she picked the color. In fact, she bragged about how quick she picked it!


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

You should always always apply a swatch of paint and show the HO and have it approved before you paint. You're still completely in the right and should be paid for your work.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I hate it when customers ask me to pick their color.

"Well you do this every day,you see all kinds of colors,you know what looks good and what does'nt" they tell me.

Yeah,I know that 99% of the jobs I do the colors do look good together,but it's just my opinion,I didnt go to decorator's school,I don't know what you like,just pick a damn color,is what I feel like telling them.

But I always just say,well all those colors your considering arer pretty nuetral,seems to me that you can't go wrong with any combination of any of those colors,but this one looks best TO ME.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I charge for color consultation, and no matter how frustrating it can be with some clients its worth it when you get one like this.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Sully said:


> You should always always apply a swatch of paint and show the HO and have it approved before you paint. You're still completely in the right and should be paid for your work.


Many times owners go off the color deck, and once it's applied they are like that doesn't look like what I picked. You are right, they should go buy the sample paint and put some on the wall. This is the only way they will know for sure. This has happened countless times to me where they want to change their minds in the middle of painting. 

A couple more annoying things: they are suppose to pick the colors out at SW for example, and don't make it to the store but want you there the next day. And the best that happens is they pick out three or four colors. One is from menards, lowes, home depot, and SW. Just pick them out from one store for godsakes. I am happy about 90 percent of the work I do is in commerical.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Sully said:


> You should always always apply a swatch of paint and show the HO and have it approved before you paint. You're still completely in the right and should be paid for your work.


Yeah, I left put the part that she went out of town without letting me know. She left the day did the white, and wasn't there when we did the beige.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I couldn't imagine hiring a professional who had no idea what works.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I used to tint up the color right there in the living room an apply samples but now gettin ''FREE'' tints is gettin hard to do with all the kids workin the SW stores ........they follow the rules cause they're scared of gettin fired ...........lame...................so from now on I just tell them to pick whatever an ill put it up..........my old boss used to recommend WHITE lol


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## cappaint (May 24, 2011)

Sounds like u handled it well. Ive had people hate their own choices but never not pay me.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Take the check.If it bounces than you have really got her.Fraudulent check writing is a big deal.I had a guy arrested once.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Color is so much personal preference that I try to stay out of it and I always qualify any advice I give with that.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Part of my contract has a blank underlined area that I can put in the paint color info: mfg, color,code. There is another underlined area for the customer to initial that they have chosen that color and are responsible. Should cover you in any events that come up.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Beige and white huh? Seems to me she asked for problems by going with extremes like that. :001_huh:

I only do interior and mainly residential. The paint company I primarily deal with makes up sample quarts for five dollars. I always urge my customers to get some in their final color choices and put them on. I'll do it for them but charge for it. It can be a real PITA as well as time consuming to do this but if I'm getting paid (T&M) then fine. Even so, they are the ones responsible for making the final choices

_QUOTE=Wolfgang;233489]Part of my contract has a blank underlined area that I can put in the paint color info: mfg, color,code. There is another underlined area for the customer to initial that they have chosen that color and are responsible. Should cover you in any events that come up.[/QUOTE]_

Same here. Mine have a spot for color *and sheen* information with very clear language that the customer is authorizing the application of the color and sheen that THEY have chosen. Having the customer sign off may not prevent having an unhappy customer but it keeps you out of potential trouble.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> I had to wind up raising my voice to the highest level.


Really? Classy.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

One Coat,

The way you describe it, you had no input on color choice. Can't imagine why she's putting it on you. Well, this modern age is is rife with people not taking responsibility for their own damn choices.

In the future, when someone makes a last minute choice like that, have them sign something that signifies this is the color they have chosen, that they have refused to have a test swatch made, that they understand the color in the bucket will not exactly match the color chip, and that perception of colors can change due to size of house, lighting, and many other factors beyond the control of the painting professional.

It is our responsibility to make sure these idiots understand why they need to test the color to make sure it is right. It is NOT our responsibility to make sure they like "Misty Morning Dew" nor should we recommend a color. 

That said, I did mix my own colors. BUT I had the HO approve a DRIED sample on the wall/siding before application. "Is this the color you wanted?"


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> In the future, when someone makes a last minute choice like that, have them sign something that signifies this is the color they have chosen, that they have refused to have a test swatch made, that they understand the color in the bucket will not exactly match the color chip, and that perception of colors can change due to size of house, lighting, and many other factors beyond the control of the painting professional."


This is a good point Bill. I've stood where I can look into two or more rooms at once, all painted the same color, and it looks like they are all different. Time of day, amount and type of light, reflected light coming in from lots of greenery outside, floor covering colors, furnishings, etc. - we all know these factors can affect the way something looks on a wall. Some colors (I call them "chameleon colors") are worse than others. I always point this out to my customers before they start making their choices. Sometimes that makes their choosing even more difficult but I'd rather they be aware of these issues than not.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Really? Classy.


Like I said, a customer can run me around doing touch- ups that are not necessary, they can be rude, they can change colors as much as they want to.

But if you eff with my money, you unleash the beast. Period. Nice guys finish last.

Classy? Yeah I was classy, the lady got a top notch pro job by one of the best painting companies in the area.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I had a customer come up to me and tell me I painted 1 wall differrent from the other,then he says and what did you put on this wall,these walls are all different colors,I took my brush went to each wall,put some more paint on each wall,all were the same paint,but you look at a wall in shadow it looked totally different then the adjacent wall,

And I admitted as much as I was putting the samples on each wall,and then I told him to give it about 15 minutes as each sample dried they all disapeared,he was amazed,I think he really thought I brought a bunch of differrent colors and painted all his walls in different shades,amazing.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Like I said, a customer can run me around doing touch- ups that are not necessary, they can be rude, they can change colors as much as they want to.
> 
> But if you eff with my money, you unleash the beast. Period. Nice guys finish last.
> 
> Classy? Yeah I was classy, the lady got a top notch pro job by one of the best painting companies in the area.



Reep what you sow.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

propainterJ said:


> I had a customer come up to me and tell me I painted 1 wall differrent from the other,then he says and what did you put on this wall,these walls are all different colors,I took my brush went to each wall,put some more paint on each wall,all were the same paint,but you look at a wall in shadow it looked totally different then the adjacent wall,
> 
> And I admitted as much as I was putting the samples on each wall,and then I told him to give it about 15 minutes as each sample dried they all disapeared,he was amazed,I think he really thought I brought a bunch of differrent colors and painted all his walls in different shades,amazing.



I had more than one HO suggest that the crown molding was a different color than the rest of the trim. I got so f-ing tired of trying to explain why that I finally gave in and started saying, "Yes m'am, we mixed up half a quart special of a different color JUST for the crown molding"

Sometimes sarcasm does work.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Reep what you sow.


Yep, for sure, and that's why the lady gave me my check. I could have caved, and been back there repainting the siding out of my own pocket.

And what's more, the lady was extremely apologetic for [email protected]@@ing me off. And she said that next time we paint for her that she is going to pay me in advance.

Why? Because we did a kick azz job for her and she knows she was wrong.

Yeah, I do reep what I sow, that's why I have a successful business.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Yep, for sure, and that's why the lady gave me my check. I could have caved, and been back there repainting the siding out of my own pocket.
> 
> And what's more, the lady was extremely apologetic for [email protected]@@ing me off. And she said that next time we paint for her that she is going to pay me in advance.
> 
> ...



I bet if you drive by in a week or so, you will see a different color on there :thumbsup:

Pat


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Yep, for sure, and that's why the lady gave me my check. I could have caved, and been back there repainting the siding out of my own pocket.
> 
> And what's more, the lady was extremely apologetic for [email protected]@@ing me off. And she said that next time we paint for her that she is going to pay me in advance.
> 
> ...




You rock!!...I can't think of a single service that if they screamed at me I'd love to do business with them again....carry on.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

PatsPainting said:


> I bet if you drive by in a week or so, you will see a different color on there :thumbsup:
> 
> Pat


Well, beige is an easy color to get tired of. 

Had a customer who spent a bunch of time getting a color for her bathroom matched to a specific yellow in her shower curtain. Painted the walls and there was a slight greenish tinge we didn't expect. This was the case everywhere but in the little alcove where the toilet was located and where there was a window letting in natural light. It suddenly hit me, I asked what kind of bulbs she had in the fixture over the mirror. Sure enough - CFLs. She swapped them out for incandescents and the color was spot on. I hate those bulbs.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> You rock!!...I can't think of a single service that if they screamed at me I'd love to do business with them again....carry on.


Yep lol - here is what I think happened. Lady came home, she was like damn, not what I was looking for. Asked OCC if this was the color she picked, he started to panic because he has a over due cable bill due tomorrow and could see that he might not be finished. So he got a little aggressive and said "YES, this is the color, we are finished. Do you have the check?" she said "Is there anyway we can change the color, this is just a little to yellow for me" OCC - Lady, I'm sorry but this is the color you chose, can I please have the check?" The lady started to get a little worried thinking she is dealing with a nut case. So she told him to come by later to pick it up. OCC was all happy now, he will now be able to pay his cable bill and he has a great story for all of us here at Paint Talk.

Just my guess, I could be wrong..

Pat


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I can't think of a service where a customer actually thinks they don't have to pay when theyre disapointed in a choice they themselves made.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

daArch said:


> I had more than one HO suggest that the crown molding was a different color than the rest of the trim. I got so f-ing tired of trying to explain why that I finally gave in and started saying, "Yes m'am, we mixed up half a quart special of a different color JUST for the crown molding"
> 
> Sometimes sarcasm does work.


See... honesty is the best policy. :icon_wink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

propainterJ said:


> I can't think of a service where a customer actually thinks they don't have to pay when theyre disapointed in a choice they themselves made.


Judging from some people I've dealt with, maybe elective brain surgery?


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> Yep lol - here is what I think happened. Lady came home, she was like damn, not what I was looking for. Asked OCC if this was the color she picked, he started to panic because he has a over due cable bill due tomorrow and could see that he might not be finished. So he got a little aggressive and said "YES, this is the color, we are finished. Do you have the check?" she said "Is there anyway we can change the color, this is just a little to yellow for me" OCC - Lady, I'm sorry but this is the color you chose, can I please have the check?" The lady started to get a little worried thinking she is dealing with a nut case. So she told him to come by later to pick it up. OCC was all happy now, he will now be able to pay his cable bill and he has a great story for all of us here at Paint Talk.
> 
> Just my guess, I could be wrong..
> 
> Pat


Yep, you are wrong. I told her we could repaint, but that it would cost extra. Plus I would need to be paid for the work we did.

She refused, I got brutal, I got paid.

As for my bills? My mortgage is paid thru October. I'm hardly worried about the cable bill.....


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> She refused, I got brutal, I got paid.


Short sighted business tactic....


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Short sighted business tactic....


OK, paint and hammer. You get done painting a house, the lady says she is not paying you. What do you do after you've already tried playing nice and it didn't work? Please inform me.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

One Coat,

many of us can empathize, but believe me, "getting brutal" can easily backfire. 

As you live and learn, you will realize that there are many ways to get what you deserve, some are less risky than others.

And NO, I will not spell out what I would consider a "better" way. I wasn't there you process all that went down. 

Just put this experience behind you and please do not conclude all similar experiences can be resolved exactly the same.


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

Here's the thing. No matter how good of a job you do painting the house, if the homeowner doesn't love the colour (regardless of who chose it), they are not likely going to be thrilled with the end result and then how likely are they to refer you and/or use you again? (I think the homeowner in this case is a rare exception of thinking she can get away not paying for the work and then also seeing she was wrong and coming around to offer to pay in advance next time).

You are selling more than just repainting a room. You are helping a HO to love their home and space.

You don't need to be an expert in colour/interior design to help a customer pick a colour but you do need to explain to them how important is it to sample colour on a wall properly (I am writing an article on this now and promise I will post the link). As a painter you guys are working with colour all day long. You know in a fan deck there are some good stand by colours that always work. 

Invest in some 9X12 poster boards at your local office supply store and everytime you open a new can of paint with a new colour, roll off a couple of coats on a poster board and when it is dry label the colour on the back. In no time you will have a collection of decent sized samples that you can use when helping your customer choose colours. 

No good colour consultant or designer chooses colour alone off a fan deck. They use the architect kits, large samples and then if required sample on the wall as well (especially for exteriors).

If all that seems like too much work for you, find a decent colour consultant in your area and partner with them to provide the service for your customers. 

Don't pass over this part of the business as a waste of time or too much hassle. If a colour choice is involved in the project I promise in the end, that colour choice will be as important as the quality of work you do. You might want to make sure it is being addressed properly.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> OK, paint and hammer. You get done painting a house, the lady says she is not paying you. What do you do after you've already tried playing nice and it didn't work? Please inform me.


Fair enough.

I've had my share of nutbars....one lady accused me that the reason her 18 year old is moving out is because of the basement colour. 

Honestly, I think resorting to yelling is an indication something isn't solid in your process. "yelling" and "professional" don't belong in the same sentence. 

If everything is solid you simply (and calmly) rely on the facts. If your documentation is solid, you pull it out and ask the HO what part is not being full filled? (long silences are absolutely affective....often people just need to 'say' something) 

Asking the right questions is essential to getting to the right answers. (listen!)

I've never had to go beyond this because I document and back up items regularly through the process starting from our first meeting....communication is absolutely key. I like to email because of this. If I have a conversation I do a 'recap' through email....always!! 

After that I would tell her the name and number of my lawyer and he will take it to the next step.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

P&H and WL - What is this "colour" you speak of? I only work with "color".
I suppose you also paint with "grey" instead of "gray" and expect to be paid with a "cheque" instead of a "check"? Sigh...


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## WarlinePainting (May 22, 2011)

And I prefer to get paid by cheque in Canadian Dollars too.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

WarlinePainting said:


> And I prefer to get paid by cheque in Canadian Dollars too.


As of next Tuesday I may start specifiying payment in Canadian dollars. :furious:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

You can be firm without resorting to being harsh. I'm just not the yelling type of person, though I do admit there have been times I've been sorely tempted.

And through personal experience early on, I learned not to get involved in any color choosing process or decisions. Alot easier just to hand them a color deck or two, let them know where they can get samples made up, and what areas of the house they may want to try them on. Let's face it, we've probably all painted colors that were butt-fugly to us, and the customer just loved them.

For us painting has to be a logical decision, for the customer it probably leans more to the emotional side ie; to them it's logical their house needs painting, the color choice is more emotion based.

CYA in your contract wording. Have them initial and sign. Payment on completion, any changes are their responsibility. Keep it simple.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I've had my share of nutbars....one lady accused me that the reason her 18 year old is moving out is because of the basement colour.
> 
> ...


Great, if I did it your way, I'd have an appointment with a lawyer right now instead of having a check.

Sometimes people need to be put on their place. That lady had no right to even think about not paying me.

She even said the work was perfect and she couldn't find one thing wrong with the actual work.

I tried playing nice, it was getting NOWHERE. 

Like I said, nice guys finish last.

Instead of unleashing a lawyer, and paying him, and wasting tons more of my time, I unleash the beast, works for me.

Let people walk on you and you become a doormat.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I've had my share of nutbars....one lady accused me that the reason her 18 year old is moving out is because of the basement colour.
> 
> ...


And if that doesn't work, punch them in the face.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Great, if I did it your way, I'd have an appointment with a lawyer right now instead of having a check.
> 
> Sometimes people need to be put on their place. That lady had no right to even think about not paying me.
> 
> ...



Clearly we have different styles and ways of dealing with people. 

I doubt you'd have an appointment with a lawyer.

I'm not intending to be rude, but I was raised that yelling at someone is a sign of low intelligence. It's a signal that you can't control yourself. 

You seem to equate being calm to being weak. Couldn't disagree more, infact I strongly feel the opposite. If the point of an argument is to 'win' then yelling is a sign that you lost. Her paying you is more of a result of the fact that she was in the wrong than that fact that you lost your head and "put her in her place".

The chances of a referral from this job is slim to none. Any self respecting person would ask you to leave their property and not return.....and that is the point to my comments, burning bridges is not a professional way to do business.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Sorry to hear what happened. I hope you get paid soon. Color consultation is part of my service, and one of many things that makes us unique. I have had customers choose colors I know will be too dark, too light, too pink, too purple, not enough contrast, etc. I would never paint anything without applying samples first, My contract states: "Up to two color samples will be applied. Additional samples are $25 each + materials" Havent had a problem yet.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Clearly we have different styles and ways of dealing with people.
> 
> I doubt you'd have an appointment with a lawyer.
> 
> ...


This happened over the phone, not in person. So I wasn't on her property.

And this lady crossed the line of being a customer to someone who was trying to steal from me.

I could care less if she ever refers me to somebody, or has me work for her ever again.

You've clearly never been in that position. 

Raised differently, for sure. I fight for mine. I was in more fist fights by second grade than most people have in a life time.

But I do not ever start trouble, or look for trouble. 

This lady had to understand that I wasn't playing. 

If you would rather do that thru a lawyer, that's your prerogative. 

I just put the check in the bank, my method was much faster and less stressful. 

This was about collecting hard earned money. Not arguing. 

Just wait, someone will try to screw you sooner or later. When that happens to you, we'll see how you handle it.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> This happened over the phone, not in person. So I wasn't on her property.
> 
> And this lady crossed the line of being a customer to someone who was trying to steal from me.
> 
> ...



Your comfortable with your means of doing business....carry on.

There are many opportunities for conflict in business. Dealing with this is as beneficial skill (if not more!) as knowing how to apply paint. I've taken Conflict Resolution courses in University and Workshops regarding working with people. 

I've never burnt a bridge. 

Anyway, I think I've run the course on this....have a good weekend.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Raised differently, for sure. I fight for mine. I was in more fist fights by second grade than most people have in a life time.
> 
> But I do not ever start trouble, or look for trouble.
> 
> ...


500! :thumbup: So, did you kick her ass? :whistling2:I too grew up in the city and fighting almost daily in a rough neighborhood. I was a scrawny kid and had a Napoleon complex and fighting was all I knew. And I am very good at it. Then I became an adult. Im proud to say I havent put my hands on anyone in over 20 years.  At 205, I am still not a big guy but can def handle myself. Part of that means handling things in a civil manor. No offense, but I do not agree with yelling at any customer. If she wasnt happy with the color, I would make it right even if it cost me money. Anyway, if the situation arises again, just tell the little old lady 500!


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

Funny i was thinking that would be a good idea to start doing the other day. A larger sample can really help to show what different light does to the color and it something that could be left behind with the HO as well as give you an edge over another company.



WarlinePainting said:


> Here's the thing. No matter how good of a job you do painting the house, if the homeowner doesn't love the colour (regardless of who chose it), they are not likely going to be thrilled with the end result and then how likely are they to refer you and/or use you again? (I think the homeowner in this case is a rare exception of thinking she can get away not paying for the work and then also seeing she was wrong and coming around to offer to pay in advance next time).
> 
> You are selling more than just repainting a room. You are helping a HO to love their home and space.
> 
> ...


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## pinchegordo (Jul 3, 2011)

Wolfgang said:


> Part of my contract has a blank underlined area that I can put in the paint color info: mfg, color,code. There is another underlined area for the customer to initial that they have chosen that color and are responsible. Should cover you in any events that come up.


Same here....And I've only had to even mention that the color is on the contract ONE time, the was zero issue gettin paid


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

pinchegordo said:


> Same here....And I've only had to even mention that the color is on the contract ONE time, the was zero issue gettin paid


Its funny because all of our cans say "check color before applying". You know how many painters whine because they cut in the room with a mis-tint. All of them....:whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

One Coat,

We all utilize Paint Talk to learn from our colleagues. When we make a mistake or operate in a way that could be detrimental to our businesses, you can be assured that many here will offer their thoughts on better methods. This is done out of generosity and kindness. It would be mean spirited to encourage others in this community to continue down a ruinous path.

You have your thoughts and convictions on how you should treat your customers. Apparently the vast majority of painting professionals here on PT disagree with how you handled this situation. We are all just trying to help you run the most successful business you can. 

I would love for you to archive this whole thread and revisit it in about 25 years and see if you still have those same confrontational convictions then.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

daArch said:


> One Coat,
> 
> We all utilize Paint Talk to learn from our colleagues. When we make a mistake or operate in a way that could be detrimental to our businesses, you can be assured that many here will offer their thoughts on better methods. This is done out of generosity and kindness. It would be mean spirited to encourage others in this community to continue down a ruinous path.
> 
> ...


Bill, I have only had to raise my voice on two occasions with customers in ten years of business. 

Please let's not make it seem like I'm some kind of hot head.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

You know, certain people here on PT like to latch onto one little line in someone's thread and throw the whole discussion into turmoil.

The main point of my thread is that there are customers out there, few and far between ( thank god), that will try to get over on you.

So I raised my voice, big deal. I did what I felt was necessary to bring the customer out of the haze she was in thinking that her lack of picking the right color was my fault.

Do I "run" my business in this manner? Of course not. I'm actually a very even keeled guy. 

My company is small, but successful. The money was in the amount of $3500.00. I can absorb a hit like that, but why should I? 

I think that the reason that a majority of people on here want to defend the customer is because you want to tell me how much better you are than me. How much better you would have handled someone telling you that they are not paying you.

Like i said before, it WILL happen to you 
sooner or later. 

Being "nice" will not help you, people like the lady I had to deal with take kindness for weakness.

Come to think of it, I did a lot of extra trim work for her in white that was originally supposed to simply be sprayed in with the beige color. I didn't upcharge her for it because it really wasn't any skin off my back. I did the extra brush work out of kindness.......


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

At least you got your money one coat. Sure nobody wants to have to yell at someone. Lawyer? Please. I just went to court on wednesday for 1100$ owed to me by a local contractor. I did a job last Oct. and he never paid me a cent. Heard all the be patient excuses about cash flow for about two months, then nothing after last xmas. Sent him 3 letters, one of which was certified urging him to contact me. He calls me after he got served his papers and has a bunch more excuses and wanted me to withdraw. It costed me 120$ to file. He never showed and if he doesn't appeal in 30 days I automatically have judgement. Hindsite is 20/20 and From now on I will check public records before doing work for any other company. The guy was a real salesmen talked about creating a business relationship. Me being eager for work fell for it. Lesson learned. Why is it that if I steal from a store I can be charged with a felony, but these gangsters can continue to operate with all sorts of lawsuits and judgements pending against them and they are charged with nothing. He stole from me. I am having a hard time keeping my cool knowing I won't get a cent because they are INC. I won't even be able to levy the tools his son uses in the business because they're in different names. Total crooks. 100 years ago they would both be dead or they would have ran them out of town. Contracts don't mean anything. I am a passive type of person, but I am ready to explode over this.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm sorry that happened to you. At least it wasn't a huge amount.

This is where exploding over it before going to court might have helped. 

Sometimes people need to feel scared. They would rather pay than worry about you.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Its funny because all of our cans say "check color before applying". You know how many painters whine because they cut in the room with a mis-tint. All of them....:whistling2:


 

were used to double checkin your work by now


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Been chasing $7,100 since Wednesday.Job for a designer.Loaded the job up to finish early because they kept stressing that it had to be completed by Friday.My guy & myself let them know several times we would be finished Wednesday.Wednesday came and she said the HO was out of town but the wife has an AM Ex Card,I don't take AM EX & it was clearly stated that their would be no CC payments on this project. Call Thursday.She gets a check from them but it doesn't include the extras??? I refuse it. Friday,she is supposed to meet me @ 6. It falls through.Tells me 1st thing Friday morning. I call every 2 hours from 7:30 this morning until I finally get my check @ 5:30!
No apology just a smile and here ya go!!!! Jesus,I'm glad I'm not running on a shoe string budget.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

BrushJockey said:


> THE reason to never get between a client and their paint color. I am (I hope somewhat humorously) known for dancing around when people ask for color recommendations.
> Hope you can make it clear that your job is applicator, and you applied what she asked for.
> Decorator is another profession.


I am sorry to be confrontational (normally I am not) but I don't agree. We are painters & decorators. Part of our profession is to assist in colour selection.

I teach my students to a certificate III level of Painting and Decorating and in an industry we have fought hard to protect in Australia. we have had to fight to stop builders watering down our trade to just application making it a certificate II and thus worth less money and not licensed. 

I will continue to fight in the land down under and in the Pacific for a full set of professional skills that a painter & DECORATOR has that makes it a profession and not a handy man job.

People in the Pacific Islands want the skills to be watered down, I get asked "can you just train my people in the basics" HELL NO! 

:furious:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Been chasing $7,100 since Wednesday.Job for a designer.Loaded the job up to finish early because they kept stressing that it had to be completed by Friday.My guy & myself let them know several times we would be finished Wednesday.Wednesday came and she said the HO was out of town but the wife has an AM Ex Card,I don't take AM EX & it was clearly stated that their would be no CC payments on this project. Call Thursday.She gets a check from them but it doesn't include the extras??? I refuse it. Friday,she is supposed to meet me @ 6. It falls through.Tells me 1st thing Friday morning. I call every 2 hours from 7:30 this morning until I finally get my check @ 5:30!
> No apology just a smile and here ya go!!!! Jesus,I'm glad I'm not running on a shoe string budget.


Sounds like most GCs I have worked for.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Please don't hate me. I choose to be a level 2 then


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Good for you Michael! We are sure asked to do a lot with a little in the states.


One Coat, I don't disagree with you. My personal philosophy is 'Don't phuck with my wife, my kid, or my paycheck.'


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

dont play with money, esp these days


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Thanks Bender, thanks Ole, some people just don't understand.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Any chance you can post this ladys phone number so we can get the real story?

Thanks

Pat


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> Any chance you can post this ladys phone number so we can get the real story?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pat


Sure, here ya go

Eight six seven five three o nieeeine


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Just for the record my comments on "decorator" are not in any way to take away from One Coat. You are entitled to be paid for work done mate, if she agreed on a colour then it is her fault.

I empathise with your frustrations, I just want to be clear that we need to protect the term "decorator." That is a separate issue to a customer not paying though.

Pays to keep a cool head though. Hope you enjoy the rest of your week and that you don't have any other hassles like that.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Sure, here ya go
> 
> Eight six seven five three o nieeeine



634-5789

at least that what Tina, Eddie, Wilson and a whole lotta others at Stax told me to pick up the phone and dial if I needed a little lovin


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

Who yells at the customer!!! 

.... Someone whose done a damn good job and deserves to get paid for it! I think a lot of people take painters for granted. They think hey anyone can slap paint on a wall... :no:

I'm glad you woke that lady up. It's a business transaction not a fairytale!


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Sully said:


> Who yells at the customer!!!
> 
> .... Someone whose done a damn good job and deserves to get paid for it! I think a lot of people take painters for granted. They think hey anyone can slap paint on a wall... :no:
> 
> I'm glad you woke that lady up. It's a business transaction not a fairytale!


Thanks

I would just hit the thanks button, but that is not an option on my iPod.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Sure, here ya go
> 
> Eight six seven five three o nieeeine


It was Jenny! :thumbup:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

pacificpainters.com said:


> I am sorry to be confrontational (normally I am not) but I don't agree. We are painters & decorators. Part of our profession is to assist in colour selection.
> I teach my students to a certificate III level of Painting and Decorating and in an industry we have fought hard to protect in Australia. we have had to fight to stop builders watering down our trade to just application making it a certificate II and thus worth less money and not licensed.
> I will continue to fight in the land down under and in the Pacific for a full set of professional skills that a painter & DECORATOR has that makes it a profession and not a handy man job.
> People in the Pacific Islands want the skills to be watered down, I get asked "can you just train my people in the basics" HELL NO!
> :furious:


First off, I want to say that this has been a great thread and although there have been some considerable differences of opinions, it's been kept at relatively civil level. Thanks everyone!

PP, 
I too tend not to be confrontational as most of my posts will show but since you are stepping out of your comfort zone, I will too. I think it's great that you are teaching a package course to your students. It's your job and you are obviously passionate about it. But to infer that someone who is a highly technically proficient painter is merely a handy man if they are not also skilled in decorating is a put down to both painters and handy men. It's insulting to handy men because it implies that to be one automatically makes you an unprofessional hack. I don't believe that to be true. It's insulting to painters because you're conferring upon them "hack" status by equating them to handymen in a negative manner.

I will assist my clients with choosing color by giving them my opinion IF they ask me to do so. Although not a "trained" decorator, I have acquired a certain degree of skill in making good color choices through many years of experience. However, it is NOT my job to make the final decision. I firmly believe that is the responsibility of the customer and I make that very clear to them and document that before beginning any job. If they are still uncomfortable with their color choices (or lack thereof) I will direct them to someone I know is skilled in that area. It IS my job to know everything I can about the products I use and how to apply those products properly and with the greatest degree of skill that I possess.

If you have the ability to combine highly proficient painting and decorating 
skills into one package, more power to you. Offer that service, charge for it, and make more money. But to imply that painters who are highly skilled are not professionals if they are not also decorators is insulting and arrogant. Would you likewise assert that a decorator who can't paint at a highly proficient level is not a professional in their field? 

I have been doing this for a long time but I still learn something new every week and I wake up every day (well, most days) looking forward to going to work. I take great pride in what I do and strive to give the best job I possibly can to every client I serve and I consider myself a professional in my field.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Hi Research hound, I agree that you are always very civil and I take on board your comments as coming from a person who cares about the trade and is professional. I have often appreciated your comments.

I just would like to clarify the situation in Australia, we have what is called the Australian Qualifications Framework (AQF). These qualifications will have an impact on the market value of your profession and the time it takes to acquire the skills, as well as licensing and regulating of your trade.

Certain segments of the construction industry want to down play the skill sets of a painter, this will mean that Builders will run painters in their company and employ certificate II painters to do the job instead of sub contracting to professionals. It also mean that a professional painters will only take one year to gain the qualification impacting on the industry.

In the Pacific Islands painters get paid what is equivalent to $1.25US per hour because the industry refuses to view them as professionals.

By the way the term "decorator" is not that big of a deal, it just includes decorative finishes, wallpaper and colour technology. I bet every one on this thread has those skills any way.


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## One Coat Coverage (Oct 4, 2009)

Pacific, 

Are you implying that you would have repainted the house if you picked the color for her and she wound up not liking it?

I'm sure you would have had her sign off on it if she said she wanted that color. 

Sure you could put a swatch on the house, maybe even paint a whole side, whatever. 

But if she still didn't like it in the end, would it be your responsibility as a "decorator" to repaint the house out of your own pocket?

Not sure where you are going with the whole "painter" vs. "decorator" thing.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Yup, it's different on this continent than down under.

Painters are not expected to be color consultants. Perhaps in the old days when most paint was custom colored on the job, expectations were higher and that skill set was more prevalent.

I know in the 70's and 80's many more painters in this area were able to mix and match. I always mixed my colors especially to compliment the wallpaper. 

The trouble is, if one does not have a good color eye (something I firmly believe one was born with and not learned), then one can not mix and match. 

And if you do offer color mixing and/or consulting then DO charge for it and ALWAYS get a signed acceptance on a large sample. As we've discussed before, the perception of color changes. What Mrs Smith likes on the North face of her house, may appear to be a different color to her on the South face. (yes m'am, we mixed up special that South color, just to drive you nuts)


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

IMHO.The "decorator" part is dated.As arch stated there was a time when it was necessary.Now,with the availability of computer matching & paint in every wallmart it has become something the HO can do themselves or hire a "decorator"

Similar to say framing carpenters vs finish carpenters


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

One Coat Coverage said:


> Pacific,
> 
> Are you implying that you would have repainted the house if you picked the color for her and she wound up not liking it?


Sorry One Coat I got on a Soap Box on your thread, I empathize with your frustrating experience, I don't agree with her not wanting to pay and I don't blame you for being upset. 

My comments are not in any way a reflection of your situation. fftopic:

I just got on the wagon over an earlier comment that said we are not decorators. I believe we are, and even after evaluating the other comments I still hold the opinion that we should be decorators as well as painters.


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

aaron61 said:


> IMHO.The "decorator" part is dated.As arch stated there was a time when it was necessary.Now,with the availability of computer matching & paint in every wallmart it has become something the HO can do themselves or hire a "decorator"
> 
> Similar to say framing carpenters vs finish carpenters


I think a carpenter should be able to do both to be truly a professional. A carpenter may specialise and be really good at one or the other but how embarrassing for them if they can't do both.

I have worked in remote locations where I have had to make up a touch up paint on the job, it was two hours drive to the nearest hardware store. If I could not match a colour what would I have done?

I have helped aged people on the job to identify a colour harmony to go with an existing colour, should I have said "sorry lady I am not a decorator, go spend some more of your pension money on a decorator. I just paint"


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

everybody is a ''decorator'' these days ...........


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

By the way the term "decorator" is not that big of a deal, it just includes decorative finishes, wallpaper and colour technology. I bet every one on this thread has those skills any way.[/QUOTE]

All the time I've spent painting over the last 9 years I have only had the opportunity to hang wallpaper once and I was told it was a PITA and I shouldn't do it. My foreman did the job himself anyway. I was a graffiti artist when I was a kid and I still dabble in it today, I went to art school, I taught myself how to apply a lot of painted finished to metal objects in school. Ehh hell I'm a decorator too I guess... One thing I do know is this.. I bet there aren't too many of you guys that can paint a clean thin strate line free hand with a spray paint can on a bumpy peeling wall in the dark outside in 10 degree weather. I can! :yes:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Can you spell straight? I can.


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

Sorry to get a little hood on ya... 



aaron61 said:


> Can you spell straight? I can.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Lol...............................


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## pacificpainters.com (May 5, 2011)

Sully said:


> One thing I do know is this.. I bet there aren't too many of you guys that can paint a clean thin strate line free hand with a spray paint can on a bumpy peeling wall in the dark outside in 10 degree weather. I can! :yes:


Dude... your a decorator!!! Well done Sully.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Sully said:


> I bet there aren't too many of you guys that can paint a clean thin strate line free hand with a spray paint can on a bumpy peeling wall in the dark outside in 10 degree weather. I can! :yes:


Fine, just make sure the HOs understand that the color is going to look different in the dark than it does on the sample... that's a tip I learned from a decorator.


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

researchhound said:


> Fine, just make sure the HOs understand that the color is going to look different in the dark than it does on the sample... that's a tip I learned from a decorator.


I always tell HO's to look at the color in the room at night with current lighting, and then look at it again during the day when the sun light is coming through the window. Try to find something that looks good in both situations or something that looks good in the situation you will see the majority of the time and is tolerable in the opposite lighting condition. The the matching and flow of color through the home line.


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## BoonDocks (Jul 31, 2011)

Paint and Hammer said:


> After that I would tell her the name and number of my lawyer and he will take it to the next step.



I'd rather the painter raise his voice with me than threaten me with a lawyer. lol...


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