# Stains bleeding through Bin



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Doing some oak cabinets. They were pretty nasty when we started, lots of old grime and grease. 
Scrubbed with Krud Kutter, wiped with DN alcohol, and sanded. The finish was very worn, in places it came off completely with cleaning.

I primed the whole set with Bin and saw no bleed through. Started applying WB finishing medium to the boxes and noticed some stains starting to come through so I stopped and put another coat of Bin on everything. Both prime coats were heavy, and the result was an almost solid prime. (Pic 1)

Once again, no visible bleed anywhere. I shot a few doors with the finishing medium and almost immediately the stains started coming up again. (Pic 2)

I'm thinking whatever these stains are, there deep in the grain of the oak and the WB medium is pulling them out somehow. 

My tentative plan now is to go ahead with the medium, then prime again with 123. I would rather not prime over the medium with oil because I don't want a hard oil coat sandwiched in between successive WB coats.

Any thoughts on this? What would you do? Anyone seen this before?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Also, the first coat of Bin was allowed to dry overnight before I started the frames, and the second coat dried for 4 hours before I shot the test doors.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have had it happen before on really worn oak where the finish was gone. I think you are correct the stains are deep in the grain. Sand it out if you can, did you wait for the bin to fully cure before top coating? Humidity has a pretty substantial impact on shellacs cure time. 

From the tds.. 

APPLICATION 
Apply only when air, material, and surface temperatures 
are between 0 and 90ºF (-18 and 32ºC) and the relative 
humidity is below 70%. Do not apply B-I-N if surface 
temperature is within 15°F of the dew point. Substrate 
moisture should not exceed 12%.


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## GSP82 (Feb 20, 2014)

I like Seal Lock by INSL-X better then the bin


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Did you back brush it? If not, maybe try brushing a problem door and top coating again?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Hines Painting said:


> Did you back brush it? If not, maybe try brushing a problem door and top coating again?



I didn't spray the Bin. I plan on spraying all top coats, but I brushed and rolled the bin to try to work it into the grain.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

coverstain


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Bin should seal everything, certainly more than coverstain. My understanding is that bin would seal creosote, and from the tech support line they'll tell you if it doesn't work the problem isn't solved.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Are you using shellac bin or the new Waterborne Bin?


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## Boco (May 18, 2013)

If its just the little bit around the edges hit it with 2 light coats of BIN out of aerosol can while backbrushing. Let dry at least 24 hrs. i havent ried it yet but WB lacquer would be a good choice for a multiple coat finish.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

the water based bin primer doesn't seal off strong tannin stains like that. The shellac primer will do the job.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I think the rattle can of shellac to hit the spots would work great.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Sorry, its the regular shellac Bin. 

The weird thing is that the stains aren't visible at all in the primer coats, they only show up with the application of the grain filling medium.

This stuff;

http://fauxcenter.com/faux-effects-...finishing-medium/master-finishing-medium.html

That's the best tech info I can find on it. 

Part of the set already has this on it. At this point, I'm thinking to go ahead and complete the grain filling, then prime again. Maybe the filling medium will help lock in the stains..?

Thought about Coverstain, but I think I want a WB primer.. If it will work.


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## Rick M (Dec 30, 2013)

*I do this for a living*

Use a 1 1/2-2 Lb. cut of real shellac 2 coats, sand between, dry 24hrs then Cover Stain. Also, keep temp the same from prep thru to second coat . dont force dry. heat will squeeze that MONKEY CUM out of the pores sometimes.
I hope that helps RickM
If you are filling the grain use Timbermate it's good stuff and compatible with everything.....
NOTE; for first cleaning do not use DNA use LT only and sandpaper, blow out"hard"and tack.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Rick M said:


> Use a 1 1/2-2 Lb. cut of real shellac 2 coats, sand between, dry 24hrs then Cover Stain. Also, keep temp the same from prep thru to second coat . dont force dry. heat will squeeze that MONKEY CUM out of the pores sometimes.
> I hope that helps RickM
> If you are filling the grain use Timbermate it's good stuff and compatible with everything.....
> NOTE; for first cleaning do not use DNA use LT only and sandpaper, blow out"hard"and tack.



Why no DNA? 

I do often use LT for cleaning, seemed like overkill on a set of wood cabs, but maybe that would have removed the 'grease' (or whatever it is) better. 

This was my first time using Krud Kutter on a large scale. It actually softened the existing finish. I wiped with DNA afterwords just to make sure there was no residue left from the cleaner.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

123 is a no-go. Didn't even think about blocking the stains. I know its possible they would be 'locked in' and not come through the finish, but I don't want to take that chance. 

Looks like its going to have to be Coverstain. 

On the plus side, the finishing medium is doing a good job of filling the grain.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Jmayspaint said:


> Why no DNA?
> 
> I do often use LT for cleaning, seemed like overkill on a set of wood cabs, but maybe that would have removed the 'grease' (or whatever it is) better.
> 
> This was my first time using Krud Kutter on a large scale. It actually softened the existing finish. I wiped with DNA afterwords just to make sure there was no residue left from the cleaner.


What is LT? We use a commercial degreaser we get from a local chem company. Full strength it will remove paint, it will clean the nastiest of cabinets.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> What is LT? We use a commercial degreaser we get from a local chem company. Full strength it will remove paint, it will clean the nastiest of cabinets.



I assumed he was talking about lacquer thinner. 

I guess we just didn't clean them good enough after all. Looking at the whole picture now, it looks like they had a fry-daddy sitting on the counter than splattered grease everywhere. The stains are in random places and don't seem to be tannins from the wood. 

Coverstain seems to be doing the trick.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

We paint a lot of oak and its pretty common to happen especially if they haven't been touched since installed in the80s. Don't have so much of it now after using the degreaser. Its so much better than KK or anything you can buy otc.


Lacquer Thinner is to hot and dissolves the finishes making a sticky mess.


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

We have had luck killing stains like these using BIN shellac out of the rattle can (even after we have sprayed/brushed shellac to begin with). If that does not work then spot prime with cover stain. It sounds ugly but it's all you can do. When you get a really bad cabinet set you can encourage your costumer to go with a color that blends well with tannin bleed. This sounds shady but sometimes on beat up cabinet sets where the existing finish has been badly worn and infiltrated by grease it's your most cost effective option. Best of luck.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

This job has been a total fail for Bin. I finally got the door fronts primed solid (Coverstain) with no bleed. Assuming my grease splatter theory is correct, it seemed reasonable to assume the bleed trough on the backs of the doors would be minimal or non existent. 

That's not the case however. The backs have one coat of Bin rolled on. There is no visible bleed in the primer coat. But when I sprayed finish on the backs of two test doors, the bleed spots appeared almost immediately.

The bleeding spots look somewhat different on the backs, there smaller and seem to coincide with the grain of the oak more so than on the fronts. So, I will have to reprime the backs with Coverstain as well. 

This has turned from a 4 coat job to a 6 coat job because the two coats (on the fronts and boxes) of Bin did nothing to block these stains.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I think it's really odd that Coverstain would seal a stain where BIN (non water based) wouldn't. In the sense that you are going from a heavier duty product to a lighter duty product.

I was repainting a chimney that had been plastered over inside a house a few years ago for a friend. There had been a leak in the roof which had made a real mess of the plaster. I ended up applying 3 coats of BIN and the stains kept returning as soon as you applied paint to the surface. I eventually called Zinsser. They said "BIN doesn't fail. Of course it will seal creosote, you're problem hasn't gone away." Had a roofer check the flashing up top, he redid it and boom my problem went away.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Yes, it's very odd. I have never had Bin fail like this before. Must be something about the chemical composition of these particular stains (whatever they are) that isn't affected by the shellac, but requires an oil prime to seal. 

Right now the door fronts are solid looking after two Bin coats, a grain filler, and a coat of Coverstain. I haven't tried putting finish on a front yet. If the stains come through again, I'm going to really loose my mind.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Yes, it's very odd. I have never had Bin fail like this before. Must be something about the chemical composition of these particular stains (whatever they are) that isn't affected by the shellac, but requires an oil prime to seal.
> 
> Right now the door fronts are solid looking after two Bin coats, a grain filler, and a coat of Coverstain. I haven't tried putting finish on a front yet. If the stains come through again, I'm going to really loose my mind.


Trash-Bin!


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

That is what makes it so sometimes to estimate jobs. You never know everything that can go wrong.


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