# Ceiling Lines



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Just stirrin' the pot!:whistling2:
How far down/up do you cut the lines?
It has become popular here to bring the ceiling line down on the wall.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Another one


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Nice line, but it looks like a fat caulking line in the picture. I like the good old fashioned craft of cutting.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Yeah, that's odd to me too.

I generally cut up onto the ceiling just a hair.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Yeah, I thought it was odd at first too. Looks better in person. HO's love it


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Also, look here.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

There were and maybe still some Eastern European Contractors in the Chicago area that were/are doing things that way, unfortunately if its not done good it looks really bad.

Seems like alot of effort for such a little bit of paint


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

ProWallGuy said:


> Yeah, that's odd to me too.
> 
> I generally cut up onto the ceiling just a hair.


Me too.

When you stand in a room & look at the ceiling lines, you're almost always at an angle. Having it a hair on the ceiling gives it a nice crisp look.

As for this bringing the ceiling down, it don't look bad in my opinion. However I don't like the thoughts of having to repaint the walls only sometime down the road. PITA!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PWG said:


> I generally cut up onto the ceiling just a hair.


Me too, unless its a very tall foyer type area (15 feet +). Then I stay down on the wall a sliver.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

That is a fine job, everything looks very good.

For speed reasons, I like to cut it right in the corner.

Unless there is some kind of texture on the ceiling then I will stay down a notch so I can make a straight line fast, without getting tangled up in the texture.

I think a lot depends on the consruction. With older houses and repaints, you just want to cut it where the line will be the most straight.

Ultimately if you stand back 10 feet and the line looks straight, that is what the eye sees. The average person wont really notice exactly where the line is cut, only whether it is straight or not.

So my approach is I do what ever is quickest to make a straight line.

I do think that extra space looks a little odd. And with corners in good condition like those are, it is probably taking you more time to tape that line a little bit low, than it would to tape it right in the corner, because the corner would help you more quickly establish where the line is.

I dont see anything "wrong" with the look though.

And bear in mind when a customer says they "love" something, a lot of that has to do with how much YOU love it.

When you are happy and proud of your work, they cue off that, and they love it too. Besides, the whole place is freshly painted, and the lines are probably straighter than the last painter, who painted them, so they "love" the whole thing regardless of where that line is. (just so long as it is straight and crisp)


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

I cut into the corner, sometimes I need to blaze my own trail when the finisher does not leave me a proper groove. That looks odd to my eyes, but clean nevertheless, and that is all that matters.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Does look a bit odd but I think like you said it probably looks better in person. The line is catching the flash or something tending to make it more dominant than it probably is.

I focus the cut evenly but will go on rather than off the ceiling a bit, like PWG pointed out in the linked topic. Guess it all depends on the condition of the line. 

That photo only makes me realize the skill or accuracy you need to do that cleanly like it is being so close to the ceiling line and still have it look right.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

You can see the texture in this one a little better. Even if you cut a straight line on the ceiling, the texture makes it look off.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

In some applications, that may be attractive. Almost like the illusion of a molding. I'd have to see it in person.

with wallcoverings, often it is best to trim "fat" against the ceiling - just like triming paint a smidge onto the ceiling.

BTW, Chris, you said you were stirin the pot. You need lessons on how to stir up trouble :thumbup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Chris, it looks like the way you do it is probably the best way. So is this the common home for you guys with texture/texture? And those corners are always rounded too? I've only seen the rounded corners on a few houses here.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that paints the walls first then follows with film/spraying the ceilings.... I don't drop the ceiling down, I tape right to the corner. That's just how I do it here in the western parts... There isn't too many rough textured walls that create the issue you have. Most often it's orange peel and the drywallers leave a nice cutting corner. If they don't, then I run a bead of caulk in the corner before cutt-n in or dropp-n... A matter of fact: I just did a Master Bedroom last week that had knockdown walls/ceilings... (a rarity...) damn that stuff is hard to cutt into at the ceiling, my only remedy was to caulk it, and even then it was still relatively rough....


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Chris, it looks like the way you do it is probably the best way. So is this the common home for you guys with texture/texture? And those corners are always rounded too? I've only seen the rounded corners on a few houses here.



Not answering for RCP, but we have A LOT of bull-nose corners (rounded) here...


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Most homes we do are like this. This reminds of LCs post about how we all do things different! Thanks for the input!
We have actually had a few referrals from this method, had a customer request it to be even lower!


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## JNLP (Dec 13, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Not answering for RCP, but we have A LOT of bull-nose corners (rounded) here...


I can't remember ever seeing bull-nose corners on a house. It's pretty rare to even see textured walls though here too. Usually just on rental properties.

I guess painters here are living the good life. :laughing:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

some people actually prefer that look. I know this guy that insists on painting like 3/4 of an inch down the wall. He was one of my first clients so I used to think that was normal. Now i realize that if you think about the normal viewing angle of the corner you are cutting (lets say normal 8' ceilings, the viewing angle is mostly horizontal, where as in an 18' foyer it would be more vertical). Put the corner on the surface that is not as directly viewed.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

daArch said:


> In some applications, that may be attractive. Almost like the illusion of a molding. I'd have to see it in person.
> 
> with wallcoverings, often it is best to trim "fat" against the ceiling - just like triming paint a smidge onto the ceiling.
> 
> BTW, Chris, you said you were stirin the pot. You need lessons on how to stir up trouble :thumbup:


I was afraid it would start the old "spray vs roll" debate!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Seems like all new const. corners are going rounded around here too; taking off in the last year and a half.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> had a customer request it to be even lower!


To me if it goes to low, then it looks like it needs picture rail to delineate between the wall and ceiling color. But that is a vintage style I am accustomed to seeing.

If they want the ceiling color dropped, why not just use crown molding?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Chris, How long does it take to lay down tape for that ceiling line on walls like that? Does it go fairly quick or is a PITA to do?


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Why don't we go about two inches below the ceiling? This makes no sense to me.The ceiling is the ceiling and the wall is the wall.This is like good naked and bad naked.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Chris, How long does it take to lay down tape for that ceiling line on walls like that? Does it go fairly quick or is a PITA to do?


I don't know how long it takes Chris, but I find that it's surely not as long as cutt-n twice. Most jobs (interior repaints) I do, I cut in the ceiling, roll the wall, second cut the ceiling, second coat the wall. When the ceiling gets painted, I cut the corner to the ceiling once (faster than the first cut on a non painted ceiling), roll wall twice all the way to the ceiling. Next day, Drop film on ceiling (still faster than the second cut on a non painted ceiling line) and spray. Wa La! nice straight lines. What is even better is spraying the wall (obviously backrolling) then the next day, drop film on it and spray ceiling. 

Just be sure your film or plastic is long enough to cover most of the wall... I had it happen when the plastic was too short and got a light overspray line on the wall from drifting ceiling paint.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

sounds like a PITA and I've never seen that process around here in the DC area over the last 14 years or so. But if it works well for you, and the customers like it, then more power to ya man. Your pics look pretty sharp, I just prefer it the way most do, with the 2 lines converging right in the corner perhaps up on the ceiling a hair.

thanks for sharing dude, it's interesting to see how things are done elsewhere around the country fo' sho.

-jt


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Not answering for RCP, but we have A LOT of bull-nose corners (rounded) here...


We are starting to see more and more of them in higher end homes here.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Nice job Chris. Never heard of dropping the ceiling down a little, but it looks clean.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> To me if it goes to low, then it looks like it needs picture rail to delineate between the wall and ceiling color. But that is a vintage style I am accustomed to seeing.
> 
> If they want the ceiling color dropped, why not just use crown molding?


Paint is cheaper?! 



jack pauhl said:


> Chris, How long does it take to lay down tape for that ceiling line on walls like that? Does it go fairly quick or is a PITA to do?


I have the exact #s somewhere, Rob and I compared the cost of material and labor for rolling vs spraying and spraying won by far. It takes 2 people less than 10 minutes to do, one person can do in 20.



johnpaint said:


> Why don't we go about two inches below the ceiling? This makes no sense to me.The ceiling is the ceiling and the wall is the wall.This is like good naked and bad naked.


We did do one about 2 inches down, at first I hated it, saw it after HO moved in and liked it. 

In the interest of full disclosure, Rob does not usually backroll. 2 light coats of a high build primer and 2 finish. So after spraying, pull plastic and done.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

ParagonVA said:


> sounds like a PITA and I've never seen that process around here in the DC area over the last 14 years or so. But if it works well for you, and the customers like it, then more power to ya man. Your pics look pretty sharp, I just prefer it the way most do, with the 2 lines converging right in the corner perhaps up on the ceiling a hair.
> 
> thanks for sharing dude, it's interesting to see how things are done elsewhere around the country fo' sho.
> 
> -jt


I will tell the dude! Thanks



CApainter said:


> Nice job Chris. Never heard of dropping the ceiling down a little, but it looks clean.


It is all Rob, he is the master sprayer!:thumbsup:


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I can see where that might be of some benefit were the ceiling/wall line is uneven. I'm wondering if that's where the trend might have started? It's not something that I've ever come across over this side of the pond.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

I have only seen one job that way. What a pain seeing it was Insurance work.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> And those corners are always rounded too? I've only seen the rounded corners on a few houses here.



bull nose. I love the challenge that bull nose presents.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

JNLP said:


> I can't remember ever seeing bull-nose corners on a house. It's pretty rare to even see textured walls though here too. Usually just on rental properties.
> 
> I guess painters here are living the good life. :laughing:


It's very common in Florida. It was either sink or swim when I started working with them.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> It's very common in Florida. It was either sink or swim when I started working with them.


PITB to wallpaper them


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> PITB to wallpaper them


Faux is a real nightmare too.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

:yes:


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## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

RCP said:


> Just stirrin' the pot!:whistling2:
> How far down/up do you cut the lines?
> It has become popular here to bring the ceiling line down on the wall.


I really like the look!

Maybe it is my screen but in the second pic it looks as though the brown on the ceiling is still showing through. With the builder bieges and H.O. reds, don't you have problems with ceiling edges still showing after spraying ceiling white 4 times? Seems like that taped edge would have high material buildup.... Otherwise the look is very sharp and clean looking!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

JAYJAY said:


> I really like the look!
> 
> Maybe it is my screen but in the second pic it looks as though the brown on the ceiling is still showing through. With the builder bieges and H.O. reds, don't you have problems with ceiling edges still showing after spraying ceiling white 4 times? Seems like that taped edge would have high material buildup.... Otherwise the look is very sharp and clean looking!


Ceilings are primed with walls and then finish is sprayed. Then walls are sprayed. After masking, just one quick pass around edges on ceilings.
If it is a red just hit the ceiling twice. You can't put too much paint on the tape or it will get wet and start falling.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

TooledUp said:


> I can see where that might be of some benefit were the ceiling/wall line is uneven. I'm wondering if that's where the trend might have started? It's not something that I've ever come across over this side of the pond.


definitely a good point- I wouldn't doubt it.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Don't take offense...but it looks like a do it your self job cut in like that IMO . My brother who I am trying my hardest to train likes to cheat that way and I have a hard time trying to get it through his thick head that is not the way a real paint pro would do it .


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Chris, it looks like I am moving to Utah this fall to go back to school. I would love to come see how you guys paint, seems like you have a very efficient method that leaves excellent results.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Great, would love to meet you! What school?
Rob gets the credit for the work, i am just the pencil pusher!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

If you need some help pencil pushing and selling I might be able to. Got in to U of U, going for mechanical engineering.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Oh heck! That is way up North! We are in the very Southwest Corner. Where do you live now? When you get tired of the snow and inversion, you can drive 5 hours to St. George and be in the warm desert! Go Utes!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Yup, I live near Madison WI now. 5 hours isn't too bad, it would be fun to come down, help out for a couple days and see how you do things. I am kind of torn, figuring out if I can or should try and keep painting with the move and the starting school. Wonder what the painting scene would be in SLC. I want to check out all of utah because it has so much stuff that looks just awesome. National parks everywhere.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

So its ok to hijack my own thread right?!:whistling2:

Are you thinking of working for yourself or someone else? Licensing is a little more complicated here than many states, check www.dopl.utah.gov.
There was a guy here a while ago from SLC, I think "thelodge" ?
Utah is awesome, there is a ton to see! 
Keep me posted!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

yah I was worried about the hijack but then I realized it was your thread and you were hijacking it with me. 
Im not sure what I was planning on doing, hadn't figured it out yet. I will.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Yeah, it distracted me from playedouts response too!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

did you read mine about the guy that hand cuts that line everywhere? I should take a pic of the most recent room he did. Its straight but just like why?


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## Awesome Hands (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm having a hard time with knockdown as well. Another issue is having to go to 3 coats to eliminate bare spots. Any suggestions on the type/ size of nap to use on a roller would be appreciated!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Awesome Hands said:


> I'm having a hard time with knockdown as well. Another issue is having to go to 3 coats to eliminate bare spots. Any suggestions on the type/ size of nap to use on a roller would be appreciated!


wow...


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## Wallnut (May 4, 2010)

I gotta say it... I hate the lines... makes it look like it was a paint edger no talent job or some bead of caulking because the guy can't do a straight line... I actually looked for this thread after seeing your site rcp... i noticed alot of that... thought it was caulking... and was gonna ask if that is normal in the states... ive seen it here... few years and it starts flaking... anyway... not trashin you... work looks good.. if ya get paid more for it ... keep it up.


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

Your lines look crisp but I cant stand the look


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Yeah, it is either a hate it or love it deal.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

this thread LIVES!!!


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

The only time i've taped a ceiling line is when i'm spraying a seamless wallcovering.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I thought it was an unintentional byproduct of spraying the walls and how the ceiling got shielded or masked with textured walls and/or ceilings.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Here is my take: The extra time to get the tape straight, and the extra tape to do this must really inflate the costs to the HO/builder.
New construction walls come with a narrow ridge for the brush to cut in along, why not use it?
Unless your painters aren't good with freehand cut ins?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> Here is my take: The extra time to get the tape straight, and the extra tape to do this must really inflate the costs to the HO/builder.
> 
> The time saved in labor spraying it all is worth it.
> 
> ...


Like I said, ya love it or hate it!


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Confused.

Ceilings are always sprayed in Wiseworld, and I never tape...I am lost...

I spray out everything before trim with primer, backroll walls and leave the ceiling. Then spray the ceiling in the opposite direction with paint.
Trim goes in, and gets "Cancel" from Kwal, sanded, and shot with alkyd (ceiling gets 6" paper if there is crown). Sand walls, tape trim, first coat, sand, finish coat.

Where does tape come in for spraying the ceiling?


aaaargh, my head!!!!



this is making my tribble twitch...


[email protected] thread!!!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Second coat on ceilings is last on a three tone.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

3 tone what?

walls, trim, ceiling?

even then, why celing last? That would mean extra masking to protect walls and trim...mucho plastic.


tribble.twitching.faster.


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> 3 tone what?
> 
> walls, trim, ceiling?
> 
> ...


I'm confused also. Ceiling last?


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

okay just finished up a job, now my mind is ready for RCP's explanation...fire away!!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I think there is a whole debate about this in a new construction thread somewhere. While this may not work doing repaints, it is very efficient in NC. 

Painting order for a three tone finish
Prime everything 2 light coats, all trim is already installed, except for base in kitchen and bath, rarely have crown or window trim.

Spray trim and doors 2 coats
Mask trim, move doors.

Spray ceilings white

Spray walls something other than white 2 coats

Put up plastic and spray the "overspray" on ceiling from wall spraying
Pull the plastic and done

I know this sound crazy to some of you, but it is a system Rob has refined, I have run the numbers, and it works.


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## Dbo (Nov 29, 2009)

That sounds a little back asswards to me. 
:wallbash:


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## MNpainter (Jul 17, 2008)

Thats bass ackwards


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## dubinpainting (Feb 16, 2010)

RCP said:


> Just stirrin' the pot!:whistling2:
> How far down/up do you cut the lines?
> It has become popular here to bring the ceiling line down on the wall.


I dont cut that low. There is a nice grove where the wall meets the ceiling it makes for a good cut line. did you spray that or something? why is everything taped?


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## i painter (Mar 14, 2010)

Whenever I see a low cut line I always think, "Why didn't they finish painting?"


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

What can I say, just a bunch of bass-ackwards country hicks who can't brush we are!


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## painterdude (Jun 18, 2008)

I've not seen that method before and I don't care for it. As for the rounded corners, I've been around a lot of them in Florida...It looks great in new contruction cause the colors are the same throughout...the bummer is when the homeowner wants to paint the halls or adjoining rooms a different color..all you can do is double tape and pick a spot. As long at the customer understands the outcome the job will be fine. The knockdown on those bullnose just compounds the need for communication.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I find the regional differences to be an interesting factor, add that in with other peoples methods and that is what PT is all about. :thumbup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> What can I say, just a bunch of bass-ackwards country hicks who can't brush we are!


If only you were a lowballer too you would have hit the ultimate trifecta.:blink: :jester:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> If only you were a lowballer too you would have hit the ultimate trifecta.:blink: :jester:


Isn't $50 a gallon lowballin?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'll not be revealing the per gallon pricing sweetspot. You will have to hack into my phone to get it. :no:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I'll not be revealing the per gallon pricing sweetspot. You will have to hack into my phone to get it. :no:


LOL, will I find the the secret estimate charge info in there as well?:yes:


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

RCP said:


> LOL, will I find the the secret estimate charge info in there as well?:yes:



Pro tip. All else equal lowest bid wins, so charge less than you pay for material and you'll get every job and go broke.

If you know what you're doing, you can price wherever you want :thumbsup:


I'm still charging less than I pay for materials :whistling2:
( sarcasm )


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I find the regional differences to be an interesting factor, add that in with other peoples methods and that is what PT is all about. :thumbup:


I have re-read this entire thread, there is every region posting. The conclusion is a resounding "wtf"...


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

It does look pretty unanimous


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

JHill said:


> It does look pretty unanimous


LOL, what, I'm a hack, can't brush, waste plastic or just plain nuts?


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## JHill (May 13, 2010)

LOL!!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> I have re-read this entire thread, there is every region posting. The conclusion is a resounding "wtf"...


Except there is nobody else from Chris's area saying WTF?? So it seems like a regional thing to me. It is not the way it is done here but then again they do not use very much trim where as here they lay it on heavy.


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