# surfactant leaching?



## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Would this be surfactant leaching? I have no idea to be honest. This door was painted a few days ago, I did not notice it yesterday then this morning I saw what look like shadows. 

Door was blue before with a little bit a fading. Overall in great shape. Applied two coats of Aura 632. Came out real nice until I saw those spots.

Anybody know what this could be? Like I said, it was fine yesterday, and painted a day before.

Pat


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Dew point dropped below 40 within 24 hrs after application. You can see it on the boxing in this pic. I have had it happen many times when temps are close to spec, and dew point is below. There are a few posts here about it with pics. It should wipe clean with a wet rag. Someone told me it was called frosting.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Ok, cool, never heard of that term before. This door is a few minutes from the ocean and it did get pretty freaking cold last night and a bit windy.

I will try to wipe it and see what happens 

Thanks Tommy

Pat


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Just looked at the dew point right now. 

Temperature
53.0 °F 

Dew Point
39 °F

So I'm guessing it will happen more after tonight

Pat


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Frosting is different. More a masonry thing and white colored. Surfactant leaching is my guess. Gennex very ****e to it in cold temps.

#reallyhatesthep-r-o-nfilterfeature


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Pat I was puzzled for the longest time about this. I started researching it and the dew point was the culprit. Painting outside this time of year I keep my eye on it. I have two other threads about this both around this time of year.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Frosting is different. More a masonry thing and white colored. Surfactant leaching is my guess. Gennex very ****e to it in cold temps.
> 
> #reallyhatesthep-r-o-nfilterfeature


You are the one who suggested it lol. 

http://www.painttalk.com/f25/ben-soft-gloss-issue-11628/#post273602


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Dew point dropped below 40 within 24 hrs after application. You can see it on the boxing in this pic. I have had it happen many times when temps are close to spec, and dew point is below. There are a few posts here about it with pics. It should wipe clean with a wet rag. Someone told me it was called frosting.


I thought surfactant bleed was different from frosting. I was taught that frosting is the migration of mineral components, like calcium carbonate, to the surface, while surfactant bleed is...well, surfactants coming to the surface. 

Years ago, Dutch Boy paid us to deal with frosting on a house, we had to scrub it down with hot water. For surfactant bleed, all we've ever needed to do was rinse with water like you said.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Great...use my own words against me. :jester: In your door. It looked white which made me think frosting. I think I ran into frosting on factory finished Hardie this year so I read up some more and it sounds like cheaper paint with calcium carbonate and masonry surfaces are most ****e to it.

#neverrealizedhowmuchiwritep-r-o-n-e


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> #neverrealizedhowmuchiwritep-r-o-n-e


Make the suggestions to the powers that be damn it, so we can fix this nonsense.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Pat I was puzzled for the longest time about this. I started researching it and the dew point was the culprit. Painting outside this time of year I keep my eye on it. I have two other threads about this both around this time of year.


Chit, after seeing that blue door in the thread of yours and it happening 7 days later now I'm a bit worried that I will be gone and it will start to happen and the customer might get a little bummed out. 

I guess I will just do a follow up a few days later telling her my concerns.

Thanks for the link to that thread.

Pat


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Yep. Here are a few pics of a house we did about 6 weeks ago. Happened to the siding and the metal garage doors
Then, about 4 days later the front door did the same thing! 2 different products by Kelly Moore. I'm a little mad at them.

When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Wow - I would not want to show up the next morning and see that. 

Pat


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PatsPainting said:


> Wow - I would not want to show up the next morning and see that.
> 
> Pat


Well, it sure helps you polish your salesmanship:whistling2:


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

Bender said:


> Yep. Here are a few pics of a house we did about 6 weeks ago. Happened to the siding and the metal garage doors Then, about 4 days later the front door did the same thing! 2 different products by Kelly Moore. I'm a little mad at them. When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


 the dark spots on the garage look like a basket ball or soccer ball was thrown against. 
Definitely weird. Never had that happen to me before.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Bender said:


> Well, it sure helps you polish your salesmanship:whistling2:


lol I bet, I would be like, try to keep your kids from bouncing their balls off of the newly painted surfaces, sheeze lady...

Pat


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Is there any long term damage to the paint when this happens?


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Bender said:


> Yep. Here are a few pics of a house we did about 6 weeks ago. Happened to the siding and the metal garage doors
> Then, about 4 days later the front door did the same thing! 2 different products by Kelly Moore. I'm a little mad at them.
> 
> When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


What products were you using?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Hines Painting said:


> Is there any long term damage to the paint when this happens?


According to my rep, No. 
He was willing to write a letter to the HO explaining it and letting them know it would not affect film integrity or warranty.
It was 1245 on the body and 1685 or 1680 on the door.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> Would this be surfactant leaching? I have no idea to be honest. This door was painted a few days ago, I did not notice it yesterday then this morning I saw what look like shadows.
> 
> Door was blue before with a little bit a fading. Overall in great shape. Applied two coats of Aura 632. Came out real nice until I saw those spots.
> 
> ...


 that could be what it is and yes it is called frosting. How ever frosting looks like chalk is coming out of the paint not dark spots and is caused by two things low Ti02 and I don't think your brand skimps on that. or it was hit by moisture during cure time and it happens on darker colors more. some times you have to use a oil base primer and redo it.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I had a couple red Aura doors do the same thing as yours Pat. Just like Tommy said, I wiped it with a damp cloth and it looked a lot better.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

Hines Painting said:


> Is there any long term damage to the paint when this happens?


yes it is called redo it with better primer oil base primer. and shield it from the dew point. like use plastic to prevent the damp air from hitting it.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Bender said:


> Yep. Here are a few pics of a house we did about 6 weeks ago. Happened to the siding and the metal garage doors
> Then, about 4 days later the front door did the same thing! 2 different products by Kelly Moore. I'm a little mad at them.
> 
> When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


Never saw surfactant bleed like that before. Strange pattern..


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## GneissGuy (Aug 21, 2013)

Gough said:


> I thought surfactant bleed was different from frosting. I was taught that frosting is the migration of mineral components, like calcium carbonate, to the surface, while surfactant bleed is...well, surfactants coming to the surface.


Sounds similar to efflorescence. Moisture being forced into block and pulling calcium deposits out when it evaporates out.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


:thumbsup: Both dish soap and the stuff bleeding through are surfactants. It's unclear why it seems to happen more on dark colors...maybe NCPaint will explain it, or DeanV, or MikeCalifornia.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For non- gennex at least, it is the additional glycols slowing dry and cure times in deep colors.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Gough said:


> :thumbsup: Both dish soap and the stuff bleeding through are surfactants. It's unclear why it seems to happen more on dark colors...maybe NCPaint will explain it.


Pretty simple, darker color=more dispensed colorant. More dispensed colorant=more surfactant from colorant. Colder weather increases chance that the paint will not dry quick enough. Wetness will draw the surfactant to the surface.

I've seen it on light colors as well, just looks like a brown stain. Not as often.


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## ligboozer (Oct 13, 2009)

Bender said:


> Yep. Here are a few pics of a house we did about 6 weeks ago. Happened to the siding and the metal garage doors
> Then, about 4 days later the front door did the same thing! 2 different products by Kelly Moore. I'm a little mad at them.
> 
> When you rinse it it will look like dish soap washing off. When the bubbles quit you've washed it good enough.


 

1245? 

I painted an exterior last week and coming back the next day it looked exactly like your pic only worse. The house looked like it had polka dots all over it. After composing myself (i.e. minor freak out) I found that a misting with a garden hose and gentle scrubbing with a really soft bristle push broom removed all of it. Took about an hour or two and the customer was impressed.

I agree, great opportunity to practice your people skills.

EDIT - NM, I missed your post about the product being 1245.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Weird, I use 1245 almost exclusively and have never seen that happen. I did some research and pretty much every thing I read said it will go away naturally in 1-12 weeks but you can rinse it with low pressure to speed it up. It seems to usually just be a by product of painting when too cold/moist.


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## Will22 (Feb 3, 2011)

Surfactant leaching and efflorescence are two different things. The frosting is a form of surfactant leaching , due to cold temperature and moisture- it is most prevalent with heavily tinted colors.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Will22 said:


> Surfactant leaching and efflorescence are two different things. The frosting is a form of surfactant leaching , due to cold temperature and moisture- it is most prevalent with heavily tinted colors.


Here's Rohm and Haas' take on frosting and surfactant leaching:

http://www.paintquality.com/homeowners/paint-tools/problem-solver/exterior/frosting.html

http://www.paintquality.com/homeowners/paint-advice/infosheets/surfactantleaching.pdf


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## Ric (Oct 26, 2011)

As has already been mentioned, surfactant leaching and frosting are 2 different problems - unrelated, but with some similarities...And as we're having this discussion, there is a more vague issue, regarding cool temperature applications, that may be relevant here as well (get to that in a sec)...

What you're experiencing is most likely surfactant leaching. Surfactant leaching may, or may not, simply wash off the surface, either by the elements or by manual washing...Surfactants, for the most part, are supposed to flash off with the solvents as they evaporate from the film - when atmospheric conditions cause those solvents (petro, glycol and/or water) to flash off too quickly - or too slowly, often times the surfactant is drawn to the surface with the solvents, unable to vaporize, then left on the surface as a sticky film...

Often times this film is amber in color - and may be difficult to remove. Although not common, surfactant leaching can soften a film then attract and retain dirt creating problems with re-coating. Sometimes scrubbing with a strong vinegar wash helps...

Frosting (hazing) can be a beast of a problem. It _may_ be caused by atmospheric issues, _mostly_ occurs in darker colors (actually "seen" in darker colors), and can be a biatch to recoat - and as mentioned in the Rhom and Haas article, can actually affect adhesion of current and subsequent coatings. Frosting is best remedied with an alkyd primer, BUT since Calcium Carbonate is pretty base, it's always a good idea to neutralize with a mild acid wash, prior to alkyd priming, to avoid saponification.

As I hinted at earlier, another possibility is the kinda all encompassing, more nebulous explanation of a seemingly unexplainable problem called "coalescence disruption"...which can manifest itself in all sorts of issues...splotchy drying, soft finish, dark and light spots, marginally affected film integrity issues, decreased lifespan and flexibility, surfactant leaching, and in many other forms. This is usually caused by painting in too low temperatures, or when the temps drop rapidly during the very crucial dry time of acrylic products - or when surface temps are below the posted acceptable range (as the surface temp is often well below the air temps). In some cases, coalescence issues may even require removal before repainting.

Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Ric said:


> As has already been mentioned, surfactant leaching and frosting are 2 different problems - unrelated, but with some similarities...And as we're having this discussion, there is a more vague issue, regarding cool temperature applications, that may be relevant here as well (get to that in a sec)...
> 
> What you're experiencing is most likely surfactant leaching. Surfactant leaching may, or may not, simply wash off the surface, either by the elements or by manual washing...Surfactants, for the most part, are supposed to flash off with the solvents as they evaporate from the film - when atmospheric conditions cause those solvents (petro, glycol and/or water) to flash off too quickly - or too slowly, often times the surfactant is drawn to the surface with the solvents, unable to vaporize, then left on the surface as a sticky film...
> 
> ...


Dang, this trade is starting to get complicated......


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Just for the record, I went there and tried to wipe it off, It sorta worked but not good enough, so I just re painted it and it turned out fine. Did not happen again.

Pat


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