# Paint company forgot to send me some bills for 18 months now they want me to pay them



## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

In a nutshell:

18 months ago paint store switched to 'email' invoices. Every Monday we get the email, reconcile the invoices to jobs and pay the bill. Every month we paid what they sent but the statements never balanced out. They couldn't figure it out and neither could we. They said they would look into it. Time goes by and the current months still balance but it still shows money in the 120+ day account. 

Then one Monday the paint rep walks in with a bottle of rye and says sorry. We went through every invoice and found out that we 'somehow' forgot to invoice you for a bunch of stuff over a 14 month period. (We have a fair amount of employees so there's a lot of invoices on a daily/weekly basis. Because the paint company went 'green' we no longer receive invoices/receipts in store. We rely solely on the weekly email). So the paint rep drops a file on the desk. 100's of invoices for materials they forgot to bill. Some small, some a little bigger than small. 

They're now telling me I owe them between 15-20k for material they forgot to Bill me for? WTF? This ever happen to anyone here before?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wow, that's a helluva rough situation. On the one hand, it's material you took and used so _legally_ they've probably got you (I don't know if there's a statue of limitation on bills?). But from a purely good-will/customer service business driven standpoint, I might have to just let it go. Decisions like that are why I have no interest in being an owner.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Yep, ****ty thing is roughly 50% of our jobs are T&M so we wait 45 days for invoices then bill and close the job. I can't expect to go back to all those jobs and ask for more money, yet that's exactly what this paint company did to me.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

oldccm said:


> Yep, ****ty thing is roughly 50% of our jobs are T&M so we wait 45 days for invoices then bill and close the job. I can't expect to go back to all those jobs and ask for more money, yet that's exactly what this paint company did to me.


Yah, I had a feeling it would be something like that. Lot of painters bill materials that way, so we tried to always be as quick and accurate as possible with the billing, because when you have to go back and ask for money after the job is finished... well, really, you just can't most of the time. At any rate, good luck and I hope you work something out. If they're really going to push you to pay might be worth making them an offer for like 25-50% and calling it even after that. They might jump at the chance to not be completely out all of it and still save a bit of face.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Even at LCBO prices, that's one expensive bottle of rye. 

Based on the notion of "fool me once, ....", it sounds to me like it's time to switch paint stores.

EDIT: are paper invoices not even a possibility? Around here, the stores at least give us the option.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

oldccm said:


> In a nutshell:
> 
> the current months still balance but it still shows money in the 120+ day account.
> 
> ...


Did that money showing in the 120+ day part show 15-20k? If so, the minute I saw that, I would be perched on the edge of someone's desk until THEY figured it out, or would have had them sign something that I'm free and clear and left. There is no way I would have let that amount of money showing on an invoice and not know what it was and if I owed it or not. 

If what had showed was much less than that, then they pop up saying I owe a 5hitload more, I'd say go pound sand.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Gough said:


> EDIT: are paper invoices not even a possibility? Around here, the stores at least give us the option.


Sounds like they might have learned a $ 15,000 lesson on why you _should_ give people the option of paper invoices. Is a stack of paper that's made mostly from recycled or sustainable growth wood really worth that much? Seems like people get so hung up on environmentally friendly sometimes that they ignore the reality of the situation.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

No. It showed closer to $8k owed. Then they said they found a pile of bills that never made it into the system....
They know I'm not paying the whole bill, I'm looking to see how much is in open files. Right now they're trying to feel me out on how much I'm willing to pay and still retain their business. Free lunches with competitors is ramping up this week and they know it.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think I still woulda been pretty scared about 8k owed to be honest. I can't believe they let that slide for more than a month. Sounds pretty irresponsible.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Sounds to me like a certain paint store had a corporate auditor come to town. Somebody's in deep doo-doo.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

That's why I prepay for all my material. ...that being said we rarely have 3 jobs going at the same time so it's a little easier to handle. Especially when it's me that buys everything


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

We run a lot of money through that store. Credits, returns, wallpaper deposits all take a lot of time to run through and clear off the statement. We brought it to their attention a few times. It's not the $8k I'm pissed at, deep down I knew somehow we owed it and it would make sense eventually. It's the magical $8k that just appeared! Add all the time we've now spent (and I'm talking days) combing through every file, every email, every invoice PROVING we didn't screw up, they did. Somehow they think a bottle of rye is going to cheer me up? I'd say I work 320 days a year and there better be a new bottle every day.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

oldccm said:


> We run a lot of money through that store. Credits, returns, wallpaper deposits all take a lot of time to run through and clear off the statement. We brought it to their attention a few times. It's not the $8k I'm pissed at, deep down I knew somehow we owed it and it would make sense eventually. It's the magical $8k that just appeared! Add all the time we've now spent (and I'm talking days) combing through every file, every email, every invoice PROVING we didn't screw up, they did. Somehow they think a bottle of rye is going to cheer me up? I'd say I work 320 days a year and there better be a new bottle every day.


It would cheer me up. For a weekend anyway.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

oldccm said:


> We run a lot of money through that store. Credits, returns, wallpaper deposits all take a lot of time to run through and clear off the statement. We brought it to their attention a few times. It's not the $8k I'm pissed at, deep down I knew somehow we owed it and it would make sense eventually. It's the magical $8k that just appeared! Add all the time we've now spent (and I'm talking days) combing through every file, every email, every invoice PROVING we didn't screw up, they did. Somehow they think a bottle of rye is going to cheer me up? I'd say I work 320 days a year and there better be a new bottle every day.


That's funny!

But as much as they are deficient in processing invoices, how does that absolve you of fulfilling the obligation to pay for the goods and services? If I were the vendor, I would try to invoice the backlog, but really wouldn't expect much response. Especially if I expressed my guilt by offering a bottle of rye.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

*Paint company forgot to send me some bills for 18 months now they want me to ...*

Not absolved. I grew up in a world of 'you owe, you pay'. What gets me is that I'm the one stuck holding the flaming turd in the end. Some of these invoices are from Jan 2014. I can't in good conscience go back and expect clients to pay on T&M jobs. I guess my first Q: is has this happened to any one on here before? Question 2: is this happening to any other companies in my city right now? Question 3: how are they going to keep my business after I pay the bill? Because I tell you what, they can come and pick up there bottle of rye and I'll happily start buying from one of the other big 3 companies starting Monday.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Man that really sucks. Jan 2014, no way would I pay, any thing over 6 month that they forgot to bill me for I would argue especially if it was a T&M job. 

When we get a deposit we get colors and buy the materials right off the bat. As soon as the jobs done if we used our charge we pay it off.At other stores we pay with our card.

The 120 past due how long has that been on your bill? If it started showing up recently I would ask for copies of the purchases so you can match your files.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I definitely think that it's slightly more complicated than "you got it, you pay for it" in situations like this where a contractor relies on knowing what he paid to know what he needs to bill. Or, maybe this is a better way to put it:

1) He owes them for the product he got
2) They owe him the exact same amount for screwing up his billing and costing him that money

I don't see this as being any different than giving someone the wrong paint or mixing the wrong color. Store goofed, they're responsible for it.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

We are currently matching files. The 120+ has been 'changing' frequently. At first they started showing us invoices and saying we didn't pay. We would go through the file and the emails and show that we never got them. A couple months ago this stopped. I guess that's when they started looking deeper. Heard nothing. Not a PEEP from them until my paint rep strolled into my office and dropped the bombshell with a bottle of rye and a sorry. 

I have insurance from my employees screwing up and costing me 10's of thousands. Do I now have to take out the same insurance against my paint store? SMH! It's Friday though, and this is work for Monday's me....


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

I have a settlement % in my head but I'm not telling them that. Unless we settle VERY close to that number I will switch companies. I'm not saying what I spend there keeps them afloat, but it's only going to take a couple weeks for them to notice I'm not placing orders. Right now we go there between 15-20 times a week and in my mind spend a lot of money there.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

oldccm said:


> Not absolved. I grew up in a world of 'you owe, you pay'. What gets me is that I'm the one stuck holding the flaming turd in the end. Some of these invoices are from Jan 2014. I can't in good conscience go back and expect clients to pay on T&M jobs. I guess my first Q: is has this happened to any one on here before? Question 2: is this happening to any other companies in my city right now? Question 3: how are they going to keep my business after I pay the bill? Because I tell you what, they can come and pick up there bottle of rye and I'll happily start buying from one of the other big 3 companies starting Monday.


If I owned the paint store I would eat anything in 2014 and earlier, then ask for 2015 at your leisure....with some form of agreement putting the owness on me


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Wow, that's a helluva rough situation. On the one hand, it's material you took and used so _legally_ they've probably got you (I don't know if there's a statue of limitation on bills?). But from a purely good-will/customer service business driven standpoint, I might have to just let it go. Decisions like that are why I have no interest in being an owner.


Statute of limitations on debts by state

Once a debt passes beyond the statute of limitation in your state, a debt collector no longer has the right to sue you for payment. *You may still have a moral obligation to pay back an old, forgotten debt*, but you can't be sued over it - Read More



http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=aDV7hM4FKr36Epadbi-bpO&u=Bankrate
​


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

oldccm said:


> They're now telling me I owe them between 15-20k for material they forgot to Bill me for?


How can you rack up 15-20k in paints and not know it? Either you owe the money, or you don't. If you owe, pay the bill. 

I have a feeling you know what the truth is.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

30 employees a dozen subs and over 100 jobs open at any time. Combined with the fact they no longer gave a receipt at POS is how.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Personally, I wouldn't pay them squat


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

oldccm said:


> 30 employees a dozen subs and over 100 jobs open at any time. Combined with the fact they no longer gave a receipt at POS is how.


Gotta' ask, with that size of operation, don't you have a bookkeeper or at least use a bookkeeping service? Seems like it would be an expense well justified. After all, it could have just as easily been a situation where they overbilled you by the $15 to 20k.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Sure do. But if the invoice doesn't show, never appears on the statement how is the book keeper going to add it up?

I don't really care about the 120+ overdue bills. That's cash I knew in the back of my head that id owe one way or the other. 
My issue is with the magically appeared pile of bills. I don't suddenly realize down the road I used 15 tubes of caulking instead of 6 and run back to the HO looking for the difference. 
The more I think about it, the more I'm sure I'm dumping this paint company.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> No. It showed closer to $8k owed. Then they said they found a pile of bills that never made it into the system....
> They know I'm not paying the whole bill, I'm looking to see how much is in open files. Right now they're trying to feel me out on how much I'm willing to pay and still retain their business. Free lunches with competitors is ramping up this week and they know it.





oldccm said:


> Not absolved. I grew up in a world of 'you owe, you pay'. What gets me is that I'm the one stuck holding the flaming turd in the end. Some of these invoices are from Jan 2014. I can't in good conscience go back and expect clients to pay on T&M jobs. I guess my first Q: is has this happened to any one on here before? Question 2: is this happening to any other companies in my city right now? Question 3: how are they going to keep my business after I pay the bill? Because I tell you what, they can come and pick up there bottle of rye and I'll happily start buying from one of the _other_ big 3 companies starting Monday.


"they found a pile of bills that never made it into the system"? Paper invoices with signatures? 

I'm left to assume this is one of the big 3 paint companies.

I tell ya, oldccm, this stinks like maybe there is a rat somewhere in the mix. 
In this day and age of computers, I really don't see accounting error as the culprit here. Especially if dealing with one of the big 3 paint companies. So many checks and balances in the computer age. Of course computers are only as good as the data that's input, so we're back to the human factor. 

Call me a cynical old man, but I'd be looking at the employees of the paint store in question. That's where the "pile of bills that never made it into the system" was found.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

That is a tough situation. I am small potatoes, but I get an invoice every month and I pay it every month. If my store tried to come at me with missing invoices from over a year ago I would tell them no, and that I would be taking my business elsewhere.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

@slinger58 you are bang on. We asked about employees, and they assure us these suspicious missing invoices occurred at more than one store. We are currently cross referencing every single invoice to ensure the 'signature' of said employee actually matches a timecard for the employee working that day. 

This paint company recently was bought out by a large global paint company and starting January 1 2014 (coincidence?!?) began switching their POS terminals over to an electronic only system. (It will be more efficient! They said!!!) no more hounding employees for invoices! Every Monday they just appear in your email! You just print them off and click ok and voila! Payment sent they said!!!


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> @slinger58 you are bang on. We asked about employees, and they assure us these suspicious missing invoices occurred at more than one store. We are currently cross referencing every single invoice to ensure the 'signature' of said employee actually matches a timecard for the employee working that day.
> 
> This paint company recently was bought out by a large global paint company and starting January 1 2014 (coincidence?!?) began switching their POS terminals over to an electronic only system. (It will be more efficient! They said!!!) no more hounding employees for invoices! Every Monday they just appear in your email! You just print them off and click ok and voila! Payment sent they said!!!


Just lots of unknowns here. Personally, I wouldn't pay a dime of it and I'd consult an attorney. A lawyer can get the attention of someone higher up than the sales rep and his bottle of rye. 

But it's a tough situation for you. You have a large operation going and changing your main supplier isn't that easy either. But I think right now you're in the driver's seat. 

Good luck with it. :thumbup:


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

chrisn said:


> Personally, I wouldn't pay them squat


Im tempted to agree. But maybe toss em some sorta bone, probably the 4 to 8 grand that u kinda knew u owed anyway.

The fact that they wont even offer a paper reciept is what makes me wanna give them the shaft. How is ur painter sposed to know if they are ringing up the correct products and quantities? Whats to stop them from mysteriously adding bs charges to your bills? Like the clerk could charge u for an extra gallon, and then take it home and paint his/her own house (hypothetically).

If its not your fault, dont make it your problem.

The other side of me thinks, for ur size of outfit you pry bill that much by lunchtime everyday. No biggy peel out the truckers wallet an pay em.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

bryceraisanen said:


> Im tempted to agree. But maybe toss em some sorta bone, probably the 4 to 8 grand that u kinda knew u owed anyway.
> 
> The fact that they wont even offer a paper reciept is what makes me wanna give them the shaft. How is ur painter sposed to know if they are ringing up the correct products and quantities? Whats to stop them from mysteriously adding bs charges to your bills? Like the clerk could charge u for an extra gallon, and then take it home and paint his/her own house (hypothetically).
> 
> ...


Don't even know how to respond to that. :blink: Seriously?


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

I think he means how many days labour (there's 3 of us working on this daily) are we going to spend trying to figure this out. All this is cutting into our other responsibilities

The invoice part is worked out. Employee doesn't leave the store until he has a receipt. I don't open any invoice emails. Until this is settled my rep is hand delivering all invoices every Monday.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> I think he means how many days labour (there's 3 of us working on this daily) are we going to spend trying to figure this out. All this is cutting into our other responsibilities
> 
> The invoice part is worked out. Employee doesn't leave the store until he has a receipt. I don't open any invoice emails. Until this is settled my rep is hand delivering all invoices every Monday.


If I owe you, I'll pay you. It's a simple premise. Is there a new way of seeing things?


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

No been that way as long as I've been around. I just don't like the 'by the way you owe us big time for stuff from last year'. I'm thinking other companies who don't do as many jobs or who are smaller must have raised red flags. If you only spend $1000 a month and the paint store only bills you $800 you will probably notice and raise flags right. Our biggest flaw is our fluid numbers. So many guys with so many purchases we were pressed to keep up even when they had receipts. Now we are to put 100% faith in the 'email' system. Well 18 months later and look where that got us


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> If I owe you, I'll pay you. It's a simple premise. Is there a new way of seeing things?


I agree as well. But we also have a full time bookkeeper just for reconciling our reciepts with invoices. If i had a nickel for everytime weve been charged wrong (either wrong price or wrong account) id be tripping in tall cotton.

For them to just "appear" with an xtra 8 grand.... He brought the bottle of rye for a reason. Cause he knows they r the ones who caused the problem. Your fault, you pay. An especially if they WOULD NOT GIVE A RECIEPT. what the contractor is just sposed to put full faith in the paint stores accounting system? Well look where that went.

Try turning in change orders for a NC job to the GC after the job is closed out. Good luck.

By "going green" the store demanded full faith an trust from oldccm. Might as well just give them a buncha blank checks.

Id say the paint store can just write it off under the "tuition" category.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> No been that way as long as I've been around. I just don't like the 'by the way you owe us big time for stuff from last year'. I'm thinking other companies who don't do as many jobs or who are smaller must have raised red flags. If you only spend $1000 a month and the paint store only bills you $800 you will probably notice and raise flags right. Our biggest flaw is our fluid numbers. So many guys with so many purchases we were pressed to keep up even when they had receipts. Now we are to put 100% faith in the 'email' system. Well 18 months later and look where that got us


Something lost in translation, lol. Not unusual here at PT.

My point was, I will pay a honorable debt. But I will not pay a questionable bill just for the sake of making it go away. That was what Bryce seemed to be suggesting in his post.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Now Bryce and I are in agreement. :thumbup:

Gotta stay on your toes around here. :yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

What I am unclear about is: Have they produced hard evidence (signed, dated, paper receipts) for all those purchases?

This email system where you say the statements never balanced out raises a big red flag against them.

If there are no paper receipts with valid sigs, then how can you be legally liable ?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Just lots of unknowns here. *Personally, I wouldn't pay a dime of it and I'd consult an attorney. A lawyer can get the attention of someone higher up than the sales rep and his bottle of rye.
> *
> But it's a tough situation for you. You have a large operation going and changing your main supplier isn't that easy either. *But I think right now you're in the driver's seat. *
> 
> Good luck with it. :thumbup:


If you are right now in the driver's seat--do not get a lawyer involved, I should think. Lawyers will make it more expensive for everyone, more long and drawn out, more bitter.

Settle it quickly and amicably under the pretense of saving your business relationship. And dump them after it is all settled if you want.

Your expensive lawyer would get the attention of someone higher up--a more expensive and powerful corporate law firm. (Not good.)


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

@daArch they've produced invoices so far. I told them to return with the original store copy with electronic signature and we'll proceed from there. 
@I paint paint I also don't want lawyers involved. I imagine this company has some decent ones on retainer. 

Bottom line I want them to understand I'm hooped recovering most of these costs from clients. For that reason I'm expecting a good faith gesture from them


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

How the hell can you run a company and not know what you spent on materials on each job. That's how you figure out your net income isn't it?

I don't care how many employees you have. I have never walked out of a paint store without a copy of the receipt. I have never let my employees walk out of a paint store without a receipt. Each employee had a 5 x 8 brown envelope that receipts went into with the job name on the envelope. End of the job or end of the week that receipt was on my desk.

Between some sloppy habits of the store/company and what seems to be your own sloppy habits, it seems to have all come full circle. You owe, you pay.

How do you correctly bill a T&M job without knowing what you spent on it?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I have to echo Wolf's sentiments. You said you employ a bookkeeper for your company. I think your first order of business should be to replace her/him. This should never have happened if they were doing their job.

As for the supplier's side of it, yeah, at the very least they should offer up a gesture of good will in hopes of recovering some of their loss. On the jobs that were T&M they should just write it off since you can't be expected to go back to your customers or for you to pony up the cash. On the rest, they should factor out the materials in question at cost and structure an interest free repayment schedule. After all, you did come out significantly better off on the non-T&M jobs as a result of their error.

I also have to wonder how many other contractors have been similarly affected.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

If the paint company refused to give him paper copies (and he said they did) how can he be to blame for not having copies? All the info he has to go on is what they send him in the email, and if they didn't email him the invoices it's neither his fault nor his book keeper's. If you were running an operation that size, would you expect each employee to memorize exactly what they'd bought for the job with no available paper copy? Because that's the only way he'd have to know.

Edit: Clearly he figured T&M on the invoices he actually did get (it's not like he wasn't getting any at all)... again, paint store refused to give him paper copies, how else would he have to know?

Just my 2c as a store employee who thinks stores should be responsible for their mistakes.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> If the paint company refused to give him paper copies (and he said they did) how can he be to blame for not having copies? All the info he has to go on is what they send him in the email, and if they didn't email him the invoices it's neither his fault nor his book keeper's. If you were running an operation that size, would you expect each employee to memorize exactly what they'd bought for the job with no available paper copy? Because that's the only way he'd have to know.


No, but I know I couldn't (and wouldn't) run my business without invoices (hard copies or emails) and if I wasn't getting them I would be into the store pronto to rectify the situation. If they wouldn't give me what I needed I would have taken my business elsewhere within a short period of time rather than operate in the dark for fourteen months. As has already been mentioned, there is blame that can be placed on both sides IMO.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

RH said:


> No, but I know I couldn't (and wouldn't) run my business without invoices (hard copies or emails) and if I wasn't getting them I would be in their pronto to rectify the situation. If they wouldn't give me what I needed I would have taken my business elsewhere within a short period of time rather than operate in the dark for fourteen months. As has already been mentioned, there is blame that can be placed on both sides IMO.


That's fair enough. I wouldn't do business without invoices myself... but then again, close to 75% of my contractors are now paperless, so I dunno.

Edit: Wait, are you thinking they didn't get any invoices at all? That's not what he said I don't think; I'm pretty sure he was getting invoices emailed, but just some of them randomly weren't coming because the paint company forgot to bill him. It's not like he was running his business with no idea what he was spending except the statements.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Isn't it the responsibility of the consumer to keep track of their purchases? It be like me recklessly charging up my credit card without keeping track of my account balance, then suddenly get hit with a huge charge I ignored because the vendor didn't process it for over a month.


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

*No Paper = Deal Breaker*

That's how I see it. Heck, I have enough trouble, being 'clerically impaired" and all.

My process is very simple ... I collect the paper as the job progresses, then settle up right after I get paid. In addition, each invoice is assigned to a job at the time of sale.

Yes, sometimes this throws them a curve ball, when I show up to pay a bill they haven't issued yet. Too bad.

My primary supplier also e-mails me a copy of the invoice the day of sale. That way, even if my helper forgets to give me the paper, I have a heads-up that very day.

A supply house that kept me in the dark would become a FORMER supplier right then. Your story is exactly why I feel that way.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

@CApainter everything was fine until they stopped giving a paper receipt at POS. at that point I had no way to track purchases except rely solely on the weekly emails. I paid ALL the invoices they sent. Now they want me to pay the ones they didn't send.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I know you run a bigger operation than I do, but I can't understand how you were able to bill out your T&M jobs for 14 months without getting the, "M" info. I'd think you, your bookkeeper, or someone would've raised an eyebrow or two when you're tallying up materials for these jobs and 20k's worth was missing. After all, were not talking about them not billing you for a scraper or a case of caulk. Again, I'm only speculating because I've never worked near the scale as you. Unfortunate for sure though.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

oldccm said:


> @CApainter everything was fine until they stopped giving a paper receipt at POS. at that point I had no way to track purchases except rely solely on the weekly emails. I paid ALL the invoices they sent. Now they want me to pay the ones they didn't send.


Care to share the company? There have been 2 big buyouts in Canada and I haven't had any issues with Dulux, they still give me a receipt every time. Actually since PPG took over the Tetris got bigger.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I would negotiate a monthly payment plan with the paint company so you can pay them back in instalments. .


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

It sounds like a number of businesses in this story need to review their systems. Sounds like a perfect storm where many folks coulda and shoulda showed a little more "due diligence".

I'd LOVE to see this go to court and see the judge roll his eyes as each side presents their facts. :thumbsup:


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## Amish Elecvtrician (Jul 3, 2011)

*Honor First*

You bought it, you pay for it. It's that simple.

Good Faith? By all means, they should work with you to spread this out over time. Perhaps offer to make a weekly payment equal to the sales tax you pay for other stuff that week.

Collecting from your customers? Might not be a lost cause. Most of us have 'regular' customers, and it's a cinch to add their old materials to new jobs. The other customers will pay as well, since this bill is now part of your 'overhead.'

Considering the number of contractors who go broke, once you have paid you ought to be able to get the supplier to give you better terms. After all, you've proven yourself to them!


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Another consideration for you., don't pay them and run away down here to Australia and start again with a clean slate.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I know you run a bigger operation than I do, but I can't understand how you were able to bill out your T&M jobs for 14 months without getting the, "M" info. I'd think you, your bookkeeper, or someone would've raised an eyebrow or two when you're tallying up materials for these jobs and 20k's worth was missing. After all, were not talking about them not billing you for a scraper or a case of caulk. Again, I'm only speculating because I've never worked near the scale as you. Unfortunate for sure though.


Stelzer makes a good point. The material costs could be extrapolated from the customer invoices processed during the critical time frame.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I know how difficult it can be to keep track of purchases. Probably 75% of all invoices from vendors are sent to me via email. Every month, I have to identify each invoice with a job code. I then have to input that information into an electronic data base along with a hard copy submittal to our purchasing department. Any submittal that does not include an itemization, is red flagged and I get a call.

Many times, I have had vendors sit on a purchase without processing it. This can totally screw up my monthly budget when they suddenly decide to charge my account. And since many purchases are done by phone or computer, there will typically not be an invoice until the transaction is processed. 

So bottom line, I have to review my balance regularly to keep track of all transactions so I know that I have the credit available to make purchases, without having a vendor reject my card because I unknowingly exhausted my funds for that month.


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## Scannell Painting (Sep 25, 2010)

I'd make em a small offer, your a big company & surely they don't want to loose your business. 
One of our paint suppliers did not bill us for last month but I had all invoices, called them to verify it was 12 grand & only discrepancy was a charge to my account by someone that does not work for us. Cleared that real quick.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Scannell Painting said:


> I'd make em a small offer, your a big company & surely they don't want to loose your business.
> One of our paint suppliers did not bill us for last month but I had all invoices, called them to verify it was 12 grand & only discrepancy was a charge to my account by someone that does not work for us. Cleared that real quick.


Definitely a good reason to keep close tabs on your purchases through invoices. Another, and perhaps even more likely one; doing so to make sure your own employees aren't charging something to your company that they are using on side jobs they may be doing.


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## DONZI (Dec 23, 2013)

If they say you owe X amount for the products, then guessing 50% is their actual cost on the product. I would compromise for that amount and both parties share the blame. They are only losing profit and your letting them keep your business , which they will make profit in future. That is how I would handle it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DONZI said:


> If they say you owe X amount for the products, then guessing 50% is their actual cost on the product. I would compromise for that amount and both parties share the blame. They are only losing profit and your letting them keep your business , which they will make profit in future. That is how I would handle it.


While that markup sounds a little high, I think the idea is a good one.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I know you run a bigger operation than I do, but I can't understand how you were able to bill out your T&M jobs for 14 months without getting the, "M" info. I'd think you, your bookkeeper, or someone would've raised an eyebrow or two when you're tallying up materials for these jobs and 20k's worth was missing. After all, were not talking about them not billing you for a scraper or a case of caulk. Again, I'm only speculating because I've never worked near the scale as you. Unfortunate for sure though.


Not to state the obvious. But some are oblivious.
The materials are inflated anyhow. Sundries and hand tools? A roll of tape, a brush, whatever it's getting used over and over and getting charged for over and over. Not that it is wrong, it's standard practice. I'd think the OP got his expense covered. His problem here is this lump bill he wasn't aware of being made due at once. 
I think they should just run it concurrently, in other words, pay it the way it came in over the course of as many months. They neglected to Bill 6 months or whatever? Then spread the billing now over the next 6 months. That's fair.

Then bump the sundries up on all the jobs a bit more, over the course of that period,to make up for it. Lol


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Nobody signed for the purchases? There's gotta be some type of paper trail even if its not a fully rendered invoice... Or, if not, perhaps you need a new system...


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I think I would demand paper invoices from the point of sale from now on or no future business. As far as paying the bill I think they should cut you a deal but you should pay for it. I guess it depends on how hard you tried to figure out what was wrong when you first noticed the stuff was wrong. If you tried to get to the bottom of it and they assured you several times it was not wrong than its kinda on them at least for the t/m jobs on jobs you bid you should pay since you bid for the material used..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The more I read this thread, the more I believe the vendor should work something out. I mean, it just seems like a good business practice for a supplier to process transactions sooner than later and get that information to the customer before having to drop a debt bomb in their lap, and expect the surprised customer to just respond with an "Oakey doke!"


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I STILL would not pay them squat:no:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

chrisn said:


> I STILL would not pay them squat:no:


I don't think any other business in the world would look at this and go "yup, we owe them the full deal." In my humble opinion, the onus is on the store to bill both accurately and in a timely fashion. I feel that at some point, it becomes unreasonable to drop a bill in someone's lap- though I don't really know where that line is, I'd say a year and a half is well crossed it. If the missing invoices were _sporadic_ and not concurrent (which is sounds like they were) and the paint co. refused to give them paper copies, this could be nearly impossible to notice. Keep in mind the book keeper doesn't go to jobs and so has no idea if something is missing. If, say, 20% of the paint from each job wasn't billed... how would the book keeper know something was out of the ordinary? He would just see a job with paint and sundries and pay it and assume it was done.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> I STILL would not pay them squat:no:


Well, THAT'S a surprise! :whistling2:


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

DrakeB said:


> I don't think any other business in the world would look at this and go "yup, we owe them the full deal." In my humble opinion, the onus is on the store to bill both accurately and in a timely fashion. I feel that at some point, it becomes unreasonable to drop a bill in someone's lap- though I don't really know where that line is, I'd say a year and a half is well crossed it. If the missing invoices were _sporadic_ and not concurrent (which is sounds like they were) and the paint co. refused to give them paper copies, this could be nearly impossible to notice. Keep in mind the book keeper doesn't go to jobs and so has no idea if something is missing. If, say, 20% of the paint from each job wasn't billed... how would the book keeper know something was out of the ordinary? He would just see a job with paint and sundries and pay it and assume it was done.



Exactly. It's the most random missing invoices I've ever seen. Being how random it was I don't know what to think of it. I had a busy morning of staring at drywall that isn't done on a job I'm supposed to start today. Billing is this afternoons problem.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I would offer to pay their cost, on monthly terms, for 18 months. With no interest. Whether that's legal or not I have no idea.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

This^^^^^^ , but demand to see the original paper invoices from their vendors:whistling2:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> I don't think any other business in the world would look at this and go "yup, we owe them the full deal." In my humble opinion, the onus is on the store to bill both accurately and in a timely fashion. I feel that at some point, it becomes unreasonable to drop a bill in someone's lap- though I don't really know where that line is, I'd say a year and a half is well crossed it. If the missing invoices were _sporadic_ and not concurrent (which is sounds like they were) and the paint co. refused to give them paper copies, this could be nearly impossible to notice. Keep in mind the book keeper doesn't go to jobs and so has no idea if something is missing. If, say, 20% of the paint from each job wasn't billed... how would the book keeper know something was out of the ordinary? He would just see a job with paint and sundries and pay it and assume it was done.




I keep careful tabs on my materials and sundries numbers mainly to be sure that I am not getting overcharged rather than under - but I would certainly get a red flag if things went that direction as well. I would never give up that level of monitoring in the assumption that my supplier and their billing department will always be right. I guess for lack of a better term you could call it "defensive bookkeeping" which to me is just a common sense business practice.

Now I will admit, I depend a lot on my hard copies of my invoices, and that if my supplier were to tell me they were going paperless, 1) I wouldn't be happy, 2) I would likely insist on continuing to get the hard copies (which should continue to be an option, and 3) If such a change were made, I would sure as hell make sure when they went paperless that things were being emailed to me accurately. In fact, unless at the moment they hit the button to bill my account an email didn't show up on my phone allowing me to check, there would be some serious discussions going on right then and there. 

Finally, I do have to assume that if the opposite were to happen, and a supplier accidentally overcharged them, everyone here (including me) would be screaming for their supplier to give them back the money they are owed. But since, in this case, the contractor was undercharged, some feel the supplier should just eat it (which, I understand, has *not* been the position of the oldcmm).


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Go on a vacation


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gough said:


> This^^^^^^ , but demand to see the original paper invoices from their vendors:whistling2:


Oh heck yeah! Their idea not mine!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

don't be surprised to see a new assistant manager in that SW store in the near future.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Didn't see the post stating it waz sw. this doesn't sound like sw practice. It would be hard for me to believe if it was sw. Maybe a dealer that sells a sw line....


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

RH said:


> I keep careful tabs on my materials and sundries numbers mainly to be sure that I am not getting overcharged rather than under - but I would certainly get a red flag if things went that direction as well. I would never give up that level of monitoring in the assumption that my supplier and their billing department will always be right. I guess for lack of a better term you could call it "defensive bookkeeping" which to me is just a common sense business practice.
> 
> Now I will admit, I depend a lot on my hard copies of my invoices, and that if my supplier were to tell me they were going paperless, 1) I wouldn't be happy, 2) I would likely insist on continuing to get the hard copies (which should continue to be an option, and 3) If such a change were made, I would sure as hell make sure when they went paperless that things were being emailed to me accurately. In fact, unless at the moment they hit the button to bill my account an email didn't show up on my phone allowing me to check, there would be some serious discussions going on right then and there.
> 
> Finally, I do have to assume that if the opposite were to happen, and a supplier accidentally overcharged them, everyone here (including me) would be screaming for their supplier to give them back the money they are owed. But since, in this case, the contractor was undercharged, some feel the supplier should just eat it (which, I understand, has *not* been the position of the oldcmm).


I don't particularly disagree with anything you said there; I just feel that since the supplier unilaterally decided to go paperless (a circumstance out of oldcmm's control) he really did everything he could have done in that situation. He was pursuing it when things didn't add up, clearly, and they did their best to reconcile with the information they were given. I'm curious what you think he could have possibly done that would have caused the situation to turn out differently?

I mean, yes, he could have dropped the supplier- and maybe it was a mistake not to- but other than that I don't see any other recourse he could have had.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brian C said:


> Another consideration for you., don't pay them and run away down here to Australia and start again with a clean slate.


Apparently it's been done before! LOL!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Didn't see the post stating it waz sw. this doesn't sound like sw practice. It would be hard for me to believe if it was sw. Maybe a dealer that sells a sw line....


Just a guess. After training about thirty of them. And seeing it happen during store audits a couple of times. And seeing the job termination paperwork. Just because they have gone paperless doesn't mean someone isn't doing their job. It's basically laziness on someone's fault. Unfortunately at SW the assistant manager is on the bottom of that sh*tfall.

AND, after what I have learned in the last 72 hours regarding electronic records keeping and electronic signature laws, no small business with half a brain is going to go paperless. There are a lot of legal issues that have to be resolved. And PPG, the only other corporate paint store operator has not gone paperless. So that means Home Depot (no), Lowe's (no), or Sherman willbert (ding, ding, ding). At least that is my line of thinking. Could be wrong.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Sherwin is not paperless. They give you a receipt and you have to sign with a actual pin if you are charging to the account. They maybe paperless in regard to the actual bill. Also it wouldn't get that far out with SW, maybe 10 years ago but not in todays world. The op issue is more likely to be a independent dealer,


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

IIRC, oldccm is in Canada, so we may have made a passel of faulty assumptions.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> IIRC, oldccm is in Canada, so we may have made a passel of faulty assumptions.


and you're point is ???


so like here on PT we MUST have facts before we start pontificating morality and passing out assumptions, advise, and accusations ???

:whistling2:  :lol:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> and you're point is ???
> 
> 
> so like here on PT we MUST have facts before we start pontificating morality and passing out assumptions, advise, and accusations ???
> ...


That's certainly never stopped us before.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> and you're point is ???
> 
> 
> so like here on PT we MUST have facts before we start pontificating morality and passing out assumptions, advise, and accusations ???
> ...


You forgot sarcasm:huh:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> You forgot sarcasm:huh:


People are sarcastic here? No way!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Sherwin is not paperless. They give you a receipt and you have to sign with a actual pin if you are charging to the account. They maybe paperless in regard to the actual bill. Also it wouldn't get that far out with SW, maybe 10 years ago but not in todays world. The op issue is more likely to be a independent dealer,


Hey it was just a guess. But more importantly, you are saying that Sherwin Williams is requiring charge account holders to sign the actual invoices still. And I would bet that they are still having to store them for seven years. Just like PPG. Hmm.

I wonder why.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Actually he stated pretty clearly that it was one of the "Big 3," which I would never expect to be an independent dealer. Just saying.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> Actually he stated pretty clearly that it was one of the "Big 3," which I would never expect to be an independent dealer. Just saying.


What are the big three in Canada, eh?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

PACman said:


> Hey it was just a guess. But more importantly, you are saying that Sherwin Williams is requiring charge account holders to sign the actual invoices still. And I would bet that they are still having to store them for seven years. Just like PPG. Hmm.
> 
> I wonder why.


Idk, i am not a electronic signature legal specialist. Sw wont put up with any incompetence as far as money is concerned. They are a public trading company wich puts them in a fish bowl. I know 3 or 4 managers that been fired over their paper work. No way will sw let that crap get out of line for that long of a period.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> Actually he stated pretty clearly that it was one of the "Big 3," which I would never expect to be an independent dealer. Just saying.


Thar can be Benjamin Moore, independent dealer


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Thar can be Benjamin Moore, independent dealer


Benjamin Moore isn't a dealer.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

RH said:


> I keep careful tabs on my materials and sundries numbers mainly to be sure that I am not getting overcharged rather than under - but I would certainly get a red flag if things went that direction as well. I would never give up that level of monitoring in the assumption that my supplier and their billing department will always be right. I guess for lack of a better term you could call it "defensive bookkeeping" which to me is just a common sense business practice.
> 
> Now I will admit, I depend a lot on my hard copies of my invoices, and that if my supplier were to tell me they were going paperless, 1) I wouldn't be happy, 2) I would likely insist on continuing to get the hard copies (which should continue to be an option, and 3) If such a change were made, I would sure as hell make sure when they went paperless that things were being emailed to me accurately. In fact, unless at the moment they hit the button to bill my account an email didn't show up on my phone allowing me to check, there would be some serious discussions going on right then and there.
> 
> Finally, I do have to assume that if the opposite were to happen, and a supplier accidentally overcharged them, everyone here (including me) would be screaming for their supplier to give them back the money they are owed. But since, in this case, the contractor was undercharged, some feel the supplier should just eat it (which, I understand, has not been the position of the oldcmm).


Good points.

Either way, overcharge or undercharge, if its ur fault, you pay imho.

Now keep in mind here... The bookkeeping end of it. Hypothetically, if I ran 42+ soldiers as the OP does, I would use roughly $1,532,478+ in material. If 18k was unknowingly missing from my balance sheet at the end of the year, it wouldnt set off any alarms for me. Thats a teeny portion. I might simply conclude that materials were 17% instead of 18%. Happens all the time. 

Its not like all a sudden he had a month where "holy smokes guys i guess paint was free this month?!?!" its a fart in a windstorm imo.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

^^^^that's practically a "rounding error".


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> What are the big three in Canada, eh?


Dulux (PPG) - Not paperless
Sherwin - don't us them, but not paperless
Ben Moore - don't use them
Cloverdale Paint - don't use often, not paperless
General Paint (bought out by sherwin) - don't use


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> Benjamin Moore isn't a dealer.


No kidding, im reffering to Benjamin Moore DEALERS. Dealers are typically running their own systems. Which can be a the local mom pop shop dealer. My BM dealer just barely went to a benjamin pos system. Their are many out their running their own pos, ace, true value, do it yourself, vista paint, thousands of independent dealers all running on different systems. Something that is out of Bennys control. So it could very well be a benny dealer store.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

journeymanPainter said:


> Dulux (PPG) - Not paperless
> Sherwin - don't us them, but not paperless
> Ben Moore - don't use them
> Cloverdale Paint - don't use often, not paperless
> General Paint (bought out by sherwin) - don't use


Gp, is now sw


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

journeymanPainter said:


> Dulux (PPG) - Not paperless
> Sherwin - don't us them, but not paperless
> Ben Moore - don't use them
> Cloverdale Paint - don't use often, not paperless
> General Paint (bought out by sherwin) - don't use


So, that's the Big Three...if there's a 60% exchange rate.:jester:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> You forgot sarcasm:huh:


As the trial lawyers say "We'll stipulate to the sarcasm, your Honor". :yes:


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Gp, is now sw


Can I take back my vote for PPOTM for you?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

journeymanPainter said:


> Can I take back my vote for PPOTM for you?


I was never a canidate.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> @slinger58 you are bang on. We asked about employees, and they assure us these suspicious missing invoices occurred at more than one store. We are currently cross referencing every single invoice to ensure the 'signature' of said employee actually matches a timecard for the employee working that day.
> 
> This paint company recently was bought out by a large global paint company and starting January 1 2014 (coincidence?!?) began switching their POS terminals over to an electronic only system. (It will be more efficient! They said!!!) no more hounding employees for invoices! Every Monday they just appear in your email! You just print them off and click ok and voila! Payment sent they said!!!


Was this _going paperless_ an option that was offered or something you had no choice about? Seems some posters in this thread have gathered that you had no choice in the matter.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

No choice. I am computer literate (my dad not so much). He enjoys sifting through all the invoices. With the system we have we still had to print all the emails anyway to sort them per job. One day we'll move to the 21st century, but that's not today. 

I'm guessing by all the responses this hasn't happened to anyone here which leaves me even more perplexed.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> You forgot sarcasm:huh:


and annihilate another alliteration ???


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

oldccm said:


> No choice. I am computer literate (my dad not so much). He enjoys sifting through all the invoices. With the system we have we still had to print all the emails anyway to sort them per job. One day we'll move to the 21st century, but that's not today.
> 
> I'm guessing by all the responses this hasn't happened to anyone here which leaves me even more perplexed.


Wow. That's actually mind boggling to me, the no choice thing. They have a paper invoice and you have....what?......faith? In each and every employee that this supplier hires? And with every employee that your company hires?

It's almost an invitation to fraud and/or embezzlement, IMO. 

Like I said upthread, this doesn't smell right. There's a rat in here somewhere.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

slinger58 said:


> Wow. That's actually mind boggling to me, the no choice thing. They have a paper invoice and you have....what?......faith? In each and every employee that this supplier hires? And with every employee that your company hires?
> 
> It's almost an invitation to fraud and/or embezzlement, IMO.
> 
> Like I said upthread, this doesn't smell right. There's a rat in here somewhere.


like this one


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Benjamin Moore isn't a dealer.


BUT, every BM retailer invoices differently.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PACman said:


> BUT, every BM retailer invoices differently.


Ours has gone paperless and so far that's gone smoothly. I did have to call in for an invoice on few sundries that they missed. In all fairness, those were items called in at the last moment, just as the delivery truck was leaving.

I suppose they'd give us a paper copy if one of us went to the store, but we just don't do that.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Actually he stated pretty clearly that it was one of the "Big 3," which I would never expect to be an independent dealer. Just saying.


I thought the "big three" were Sherwin, Home Depot, and Lowe's!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I've had very little difficulty retrieving e-invoices that I misplaced. I also like the feature on my online bank statement that allows the ability to view an itemized invoice of a vendor that's actually produced by the bank. I wish more vendors had this integrated with my P-Card provider and their accounts receivable.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> No kidding, im reffering to Benjamin Moore DEALERS. Dealers are typically running their own systems. Which can be a the local mom pop shop dealer. My BM dealer just barely went to a benjamin pos system. Their are many out their running their own pos, ace, true value, do it yourself, vista paint, thousands of independent dealers all running on different systems. Something that is out of Bennys control. So it could very well be a benny dealer store.


Seems you missed the part about the paint store being bought out _by a global company._ Benjamin Moore doesn't buy out stores, nor do they enforce any specific storefront policies for invoicing. Not sure why you're so desperate to throw BM into the mix on this one... clearly doesn't make sense.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

DrakeB said:


> I don't particularly disagree with anything you said there; I just feel that since the supplier unilaterally decided to go paperless (a circumstance out of oldcmm's control) he really did everything he could have done in that situation. He was pursuing it when things didn't add up, clearly, and they did their best to reconcile with the information they were given. I'm curious what you think he could have possibly done that would have caused the situation to turn out differently?
> 
> I mean, yes, he could have dropped the supplier- and maybe it was a mistake not to- but other than that I don't see any other recourse he could have had.


My first step would have been to alert my bookkeeper that a change was in the works and to be on the lookout for any anomalies in the materials and sundries numbers. Any spike or drop in the typical percentage range for supplies should have called for extra scrutiny to make sure it was warranted.

The indication was that part of the problem _oldcmm_ had was having thirty guys on crew. Hopefully not every one of them was/is able to charge for materials. If they were/are, I would have tightened that up to only one or two per crew. 

After that, in lieu of no hard receipt, I would have required the crew person responsible for purchasing to use their phone to immediately email or text the amount of said charge to either me, the bookkeeper, or both. No phone? have them record it in a receipt notebook available at Staples. That way we'd at least have numbers to compare to the supplier's invoice emails and monthly statements. An alternative to the above might have been to issue a business credit card to only a few employees responsible for purchasing. Then they simply could have charged it to the company and gotten a charge receipt. However, this would take a level of employee trust that many might not be comfortable with.

Now I will admit, that some of these may be deemed onerous or impractical, but until I felt confident that the new system was working properly, some such extra precautions would likely have been warranted IMO. It is also why I would have probably changed suppliers if getting a hard receipt wasn't an option. 

I will also admit that hindsight is always 20/20 and although it is easy for me to sit here and make these suggestions, in the real world, and during the busiest time of the year, implementing them might have taken more energy and time than _oldcmm_ might have possessed - especially if he felt he could trust this supplier to be accurate.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Fair enough. I'm not a business owner, so it's not the kind of thing I normally worry about, but I do have a _lot_ of customers that shop here that have gone to emails only.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> Seems you missed the part about the paint store being bought out _by a global company._ Benjamin Moore doesn't buy out stores, nor do they enforce any specific storefront policies for invoicing. Not sure why you're so desperate to throw BM into the mix on this one... clearly doesn't make sense.


Didnt BM buy Insl-x paints/ Coronado paints, LenMar Lacquers and a variety of other brands?



PACman said:


> don't be surprised to see a new assistant manager in that SW store in the near future.


Benjamin Moore is one of my primary manufacturer, sw being one aswell. I comend the op for not making this a bashing thread on a certain manufacturer. The guessing game sure has been fun though.


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## NaplesPainter (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm usually a lurker but decided to chime in on this one to help out. OLDCM I own my own company and run approx. 110 employees myself so I too can see how this can easily go untraced especially if you run a warehouse full of sundries and have your own inventory of materials that you check out for each job. Basically you are still billing everything out on your side from T&M to hard cost jobs but your expense invoices for these materials never came in. I would check to see how many of the charges were in the prior year. Since you did not take the expense last year then unfortunately your net income has been overstated for tax purposes and you probably paid the IRS 35% based on your tax bracket. I don't know if this is your tax bracket or not but I would definitely approach it this way. This is money you have paid out of pocket to uncle sam that you could get back but I would never redo my taxes with the IRS unless its mandatory. So basically if you have 10k of invoices from last year then I would request a 3500 discount based on the taxes you paid. The other recommendations on just paying on the cost is a good one also. In reality both parties should come to an easy solution to this. You hold the upper hand since it was their mistake and you are the client. Your company is probably buying between 200k-300k of materials from them if you use them exclusively so I'm sure they don't want to lose your business. I would get very aggressive on the payoff amount.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Didnt BM buy Insl-x paints/ Coronado paints, LenMar Lacquers and a variety of other brands?


Yes, but that's buying brands not stores, and like I said BM doesn't enforce a company policy on invoice procedures at all. Many BM dealers deal in other paints, and very, very few (if any) store policies are set by the company since the dealers aren't affiliated with them in any way, except as buyers. You wouldn't expect a cereal company to tell a grocery store how to do their billing- the relationship is roughly the same.

Just my 2c, and it's not like I'd lose any sleep if it was BM, but the information we have just doesn't add up there. Probably not even worth having this long of a discussion about.


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## AQP (Oct 19, 2013)

Drake can you look at a post i made in the business portion in the forum. Its titled customer care program. Seeing that your a BM Dealer i would really appreciate it. Btw sorry for posting in this forum about an unrelated topic. I can not send pm. So figure this was the next best


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> Yes, but that's buying brands not stores, and like I said BM doesn't enforce a company policy on invoice procedures at all. Many BM dealers deal in other paints, and very, very few (if any) store policies are set by the company since the dealers aren't affiliated with them in any way, except as buyers. You wouldn't expect a cereal company to tell a grocery store how to do their billing- the relationship is roughly the same.
> 
> Just my 2c, and it's not like I'd lose any sleep if it was BM, but the information we have just doesn't add up there. Probably not even worth having this long of a discussion about.


Thought we were just trying to solve the riddle here. Btw I thought when BM bought Coranado manufacturer, they 
acquire the stores too. Like sw bought comex, the stores came with the deal.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Thought we were just trying to solve the riddle here. Btw I thought when BM bought Coranado manufacturer, they
> acquire the stores too. Like sw bought comex, the stores came with the deal.


They may have; last time I checked they were selling off all retail outlets because they didn't want to compete with their dealers.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

NaplesPainter said:


> I'm usually a lurker but decided to chime in on this one to help out. OLDCM I own my own company and run approx. 110 employees myself so I too can see how this can easily go untraced especially if you run a warehouse full of sundries and have your own inventory of materials that you check out for each job. Basically you are still billing everything out on your side from T&M to hard cost jobs but your expense invoices for these materials never came in. I would check to see how many of the charges were in the prior year. Since you did not take the expense last year then unfortunately your net income has been overstated for tax purposes and you probably paid the IRS 35% based on your tax bracket. I don't know if this is your tax bracket or not but I would definitely approach it this way. This is money you have paid out of pocket to uncle sam that you could get back but I would never redo my taxes with the IRS unless its mandatory. So basically if you have 10k of invoices from last year then I would request a 3500 discount based on the taxes you paid. The other recommendations on just paying on the cost is a good one also. In reality both parties should come to an easy solution to this. You hold the upper hand since it was their mistake and you are the client. Your company is probably buying between 200k-300k of materials from them if you use them exclusively so I'm sure they don't want to lose your business. I would get very aggressive on the payoff amount.


yea, like $0:laughing:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

chrisn said:


> yea, like $0:laughing:


Chrisn totaling up the day's profits? :notworthy:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> They may have; last time I checked they were selling off all retail outlets because they didn't want to compete with their dealers.


Probably so..... but then BM makes deals with paint manufacturers like Vista Paint here in California. Yet they are considered as a dealer. They are putting BM product in a Vista Paint Store that is less than 5 miles from a true BM dealer..... Wouldn't that tick you off? And guess what? I can get better priceing through Vista than the dealer. Why? Buying power, seemes BM is going against their own system. I still will not get my bm products at Vista.... I will continue to support the brick and mortar Redlands Paint store...


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

*Paint company forgot to send me some bills for 18 months now they want me to ...*

@NaplesPainter hit the nail on the head. As for moving forward, nothing is going to happen in the short term. All numbers 'owed' are suspended and not subject to interest. We are auditing our invoices for the past 18 months to see if any patterns or inconsistencies emerge. At that point we'll submit our offer and go from there. As a gesture of goodwill we are still purchasing paint but invoices are given and either me or a couple other guys collect them daily for accuracy. I didn't want to bash a company but there's only a couple big ones and less that operate in Canada.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So trying to follow this thread , I am observing the following:

-Oldclam gets a whiskey bribe from his supplier in exchange for payment on some outstanding invoices they decided to collect in a large chunk before dumping it on his lap.

-OC says screw you, I had no idea you were hoarding these invoices. I have a business to run, and don't have time for these amateur moves. OC only offers the identity of the supplier as one of the "Big Three"

- Everybody tosses in an opinion. Including the employee members here who don't have any business participating in grown up discussions.

- A couple of BM dealers here suspect it's one of their corporate nemesis and begin to throw down some innuendos.

-Offended by the assumptions, one of PT's esteemed members rejects the notion that a well known, and global, supplier would have the level of accounting deficiencies that would lead to Oldcum's grief, and implies that it could very well be a BM dealer.

-In a counter measure of indignation , the BM dealers here proclaim that it is impossible to compare a corporate run organization to the BM mom and pop distribution matrix that prides itself on individual accountability.

-Which our esteemed member calls foul due to the fact that BM has acquired a significant market share of corporate run paint manufacturers

-Meanwhile, oldcam has only a bottle of whiskey and a freakin significant bill to contemplate while determining his next move.

Do I have it about right?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> So trying to follow this thread , I am observing the following:
> 
> -Oldclam gets a whiskey bribe from his supplier in exchange for payment on some outstanding invoices they decided to collect in a large chunk before dumping it on his lap.
> 
> ...


*****


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Well, all but the "esteemed" part.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

RH said:


> Well, all but the "esteemed" part.


and the fact that witch ever one of the top "3" companies it was, does not deserve to get one red cent

and me, personally, would have returned the whiskey:yes:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> A couple of BM dealers here suspect it's one of their corporate nemesis and begin to throw down some innuendos.


Actually I'm pretty sure I avoid that kind of thing as best I can. I'd challenge you to provide a citation for that, please. I'm assuming you're speaking to me, since I'm the only current BM dealer here. The only time I mentioned anything to do with manufacturers was when BM's name was tossed out, and I only said anything because it didn't seem to fit the picture. It's not like I'm white knighting for BM here, you can see me openly criticizing their customer care program and some of their paint and stain lines on various parts of this forum.

As I've made clear before, I'm not here to sling **** at other companies. It doesn't do me any good, it doesn't make me look good, and it's not what I'm here for. Apologies if I seem overly offended here, but I don't appreciate that implication.



CApainter said:


> -In a counter measure of indignation , the BM dealers here proclaim that it is impossible to compare a corporate run organization to the BM mom and pop distribution matrix that prides itself on individual accountability.


I'm not claiming BM couldn't be the culprit due to some moral high ground (I'm not even claiming it's not BM), I just noticed they were brought up and that there were discrepancies between the story as we heard it and what BM's actual corporate policies are, since the implication was that a national retailer (which BM isn't) set a policy for going paperless (which BM hasn't).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DrakeB said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure I avoid that kind of thing as best I can. I'd challenge you to provide a citation for that, please. I'm assuming you're speaking to me, since I'm the only current BM dealer here. The only time I mentioned anything to do with manufacturers was when BM's name was tossed out, and I only said anything because it didn't seem to fit the picture. It's not like I'm white knighting for BM here, you can see me openly criticizing their customer care program and some of their paint and stain lines on various parts of this forum.
> 
> As I've made clear before, I'm not here to sling **** at other companies. It doesn't do me any good, it doesn't make me look good, and it's not what I'm here for. Apologies if I seem overly offended here, but I don't appreciate that implication.
> 
> ...


I thought PACman worked with a BM supplier. In any event, the innuendo was that the "big three" included SW, and two major big box home improvement stores. Which for many here, does not place SW in a very good light. In fact, it may be very insulting for a major professional paint manufacturer like SW to be described in the same league as the DIY centers.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> So trying to follow this thread , I am observing the following:
> 
> -Oldclam gets a whiskey bribe from his supplier in exchange for payment on some outstanding invoices they decided to collect in a large chunk before dumping it on his lap.
> 
> ...


What the hell did I start? This is getting as bad as a stinky bear thread. Anyway back to the OP with some relevant comments;
as a former credit manager with two of the "big three (US version)" I would suggest looking at your credit agreement with whoever it was. Look for somewhere it might say something like "invoice copies provided as a courtesy for records keeping". That would be the comment that they would fall back on.

Also, they are going to have to provide some invoice records to you so you can reconcile them with your bookkeeping. You have a right to know that what was invoiced was signed for by yourself or an authorized agent of your company. Once you feel that the charges are legit, it becomes kind of a goodwill/good business practices situation. If they value your business, (and they should) they will be willing to work with you on getting them paid off. This is all assuming of course that you have decided that the charges are legit, and you are willing to pay for them.

I would suggest, if the company is able and willing, to have them put those charges on a "job" account. That would give them the ability to extend payment terms to you so you don't have to pay a lump sum.

Legally, I don't have any idea. It seems to me that a lot is dependent on what is in the original credit agreement regarding records keeping and whether they are required to provide invoice copies or if they consider it to be a courtesy.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> and the fact that witch ever one of the top "3" companies it was, does not deserve to get one red cent
> 
> and me, personally, would have returned the whiskey:yes:


I would have returned the empty bottle.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I thought PACman worked with a BM supplier. In any event, the innuendo was that the "big three" included SW, and two major big box home improvement stores. Which for many here, does not place SW in a very good light. In fact, it may be very insulting for a major professional paint manufacturer like SW to be described in the same league as the DIY centers.




Yup. But, I worked for SW, PPG, Lowe's, AND a Ben Moore dealer. I have a pretty good idea who and how the retail paint business is being torn to crap. Like every other retail business, it will not be long now before there will be absolutely no independent stores, and everything you will be able to buy will be grossly overpriced, extreme low quality, and no one in a paint store anywhere will know crap about paint. And those "big three(US version) will be the cause. When those three companies control the market you won't be able to buy any paint that will be worth a crap, because the only way they have to compete is to lower prices and lie about their quality. And to ignore significant product failures to protect their profits.

And FYI? The 30 and 40% off sales were started so they could pull people out of the box stores. If that desire and desperation to sell to box store customers doesn't put them in the same league as the box stores then what else would it be? They don't run those sales and spend millions of dollars every month to attract painting contractors. There isn't a painting contractor in the country that doesn't already know about SW.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Yup. But, I worked for SW, PPG, Lowe's, AND a Ben Moore dealer. I have a pretty good idea who and how the retail paint business is being torn to crap. Like every other retail business, it will not be long now before there will be absolutely no independent stores, and everything you will be able to buy will be grossly overpriced, extreme low quality, and no one in a paint store anywhere will know crap about paint. And those "big three(US version) will be the cause. When those three companies control the market you won't be able to buy any paint that will be worth a crap, because the only way they have to compete is to lower prices and lie about their quality. And to ignore significant product failures to protect their profits.
> 
> And FYI? The 30 and 40% off sales were started so they could pull people out of the box stores. If that desire and desperation to sell to box store customers doesn't put them in the same league as the box stores then what else would it be? They don't run those sales and spend millions of dollars every month to attract painting contractors. There isn't a painting contractor in the country that doesn't already know about SW.


Well, you made my point. SW is the independent's nemesis. Therefore, the comments in this thread would seem biased, which ultimately provoked suspicion from Gabe and maybe some other members. 

And as someone who does business with independents in a large metropolitan area, I can tell you, many of them are not what they're cracked up to be.

And I am certainly not doubting that you or Drake aren't running a top shelf independent supply store. But, doesn't the David and Goliath card get a little played out in this modern consumer age?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Well, you made my point. SW is the independent's nemesis. Therefore, the comments in this thread would seem biased, which ultimately provoked suspicion from Gabe and maybe some other members.
> 
> And as someone who does business with independents in a large metropolitan area, I can tell you, many of them are not what they're cracked up to be.
> 
> And I am certainly not doubting that you or Drake aren't running a top shelf independent supply store. But, doesn't the David and Goliath card get a little played out in this modern consumer age?




reference the following; certapro, student painters, college painters, freshcoat painting and on and on. Promise quality, bid cheap, and provide a service or product that is far below expectations. The quality painting contractors will someday be squeezed out of the business too, just like the quality independent stores. It's only a matter of time before a huge mega painting company starts taking over the market. And you can bet your sweet bippy that SW will be behind them all the way. And yes, when you deal with the consumers who feel they have been ripped off by the mediocre paint and/or service of the "big three" on a hourly basis, it kind of gets personal. I do not like seeing a majority of paint consumers basically being taken advantage of by the "big three" the way they are now. Case in point- no matter how many deck restore products fail, not one company has bothered to address the problem, other than to replace material and get a signed waiver releasing them from further fault. This is a scam, and it really bugs the crap out of me that nothing has been done about it. When YOU have to tell an eighty something year old woman who's on a fixed income how much effort it will take to fix her 8 month old peeling deck coating, let alone telling her how much it will cost, it gets personal.

Sorry if I sound a little miffed regarding the "big three(US version)", but they are creating an extremely dysfunctional retail dynamic in the paint business, and consumers are the unknowing victims. Consumers have absolutely no way of knowing the "value" of the paint or services they are buying. And it is the "big three" that are creating the problem. 

Oh and BTW, when I asked if SW, Home Depot, and Lowe's were considered the "big three" I was being sarcastic.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Well, you made my point. SW is the independent's nemesis. Therefore, the comments in this thread would seem biased, which ultimately provoked suspicion from Gabe and maybe some other members.
> 
> And as someone who does business with independents in a large metropolitan area, I can tell you, many of them are not what they're cracked up to be.
> 
> And I am certainly not doubting that you or Drake aren't running a top shelf independent supply store. But, doesn't the David and Goliath card get a little played out in this modern consumer age?


The David and Goliath card has been played successfully since ancient times, surely there will never be a time limit to its valid comparisons.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Honestly, meant what I said earlier. I'm not here to talk down any other company. I give my honest opinion about my own products and others. I have a reputation to protect and I consider myself an honorable guy anyways. So with that being said, I'm going to go ahead and check out of this thread. I gave the OP the best advice I could, and best of luck to you oldccm.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This thread did seem to develop into the plight of the smaller independent paint store's, and the difficulties they can experience when competing in a consumer environment that has become accostomed to large corporations and franchises that provide stocked shelves, predictibility, and plentiful parking, rather than customer care. But apparently, that's what we want, or they wouldn't exist. 

Have we prioritized convenience and the need to spread a dollar as far as it can go on those dreaded obligations, like home improvement, so we can have enough left over for those expensive techy gadgets that keep us distracted and opinionated ?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

CApainter said:


> This thread did seem to develop into the plight of the smaller independent paint store's, and the difficulties they can experience when competing in a consumer environment that has become accostomed to large corporations and franchises that provide stocked shelves, predictibility, and plentiful parking, rather than customer care. But *apparently, that's what we want, or they wouldn't exist. *
> 
> Have we prioritized convenience and the need to spread a dollar as far as it can go on those dreaded obligations, like home improvement, so we can have enough left over for those expensive techy gadgets that keep us distracted and opinionated ?


It's what their shareholders want. They run a giant, successful marketing campaign to get us to believe that's what we want. Mergers and acquisitions, the big get bigger. Of course we want customer care but that isn't in the plan. I know, I'm just a cynic clinging to the past.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

SemiproJohn said:


> It's what their shareholders want. They run a giant, successful marketing campaign to get us to believe that's what we want. Mergers and acquisitions, the big get bigger. Of course we want customer care but that isn't in the plan. I know, I'm just a cynic clinging to the past.


I suspect the increase in shake and bake contractors, along with the influx of cheap undocumented workers in unprecedented numbers during the lucrative housing boon, also has something to do with the "Big Three's" success. Couple that with homeowner's prioritizing expensive techy gadgets over quality building products and walla, the independent supplier suffers, along with a warmer and folksier way of doing business.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I wonder what the big three's DIY homeowner, to Mickey Mouse contractor ratio is. Although I would imagine that if there is a downsizing of independent lumber yards, that many good building contractors are also forced to use the large DIY home improvement centers as their main suppliers.


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## Underdog (Mar 9, 2013)

chrisn said:


> and me, personally, would have returned the whiskey:yes:


 I would have kept it as evidence. Seems like an admission of guilt.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Theres the same thing happening in a thousand different industries. Cell phones computers automobiles airplanes etc etc.

Around here you used to have like 8 different cell providers, now theres like four.

Maybe a class action law suit would take some wind outta their sails (deck products). Oh nvm I forgot lawyers are worthless. It isnt much different than cigarette advertising of yesteryear. Cigarettes were practically guaranteed to make you cool, good looking, hot girlfriend, drive a convertible, rich etc etc. Well over time, people catch on. Just the way it goes. 

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. That 80 year old lady pry wont use Deckover next time.

Also with Google nowadays, more people r starting to do their own research. At least around here, they aint all dummies.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Underdog said:


> I would have kept it as evidence. Seems like an admission of guilt.


There is that for sure :thumbsup:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

SemiproJohn said:


> It's what their shareholders want. They run a giant, successful marketing campaign to get us to believe that's what we want. Mergers and acquisitions, the big get bigger. Of course we want customer care but that isn't in the plan. I know, I'm just a cynic clinging to the past.


The process of providing customer care is very expensive. Hiring quality, quality training, paying those qualified people a decent wage, are all time consuming and expensive. But most of all, they are very difficult to quantify to the shareholders and the bean counters. That is the downward path that we are on. Investors want short term, massive gains on their investments, and customer service doesn't provide that as well as self service does. That's how The original creators of Home Depot and Lowe's and many, many other retailers "sold" their concepts to investors to begin with. In all honesty, having a paint department that has to be staffed to tint and shake paint is quite a burden to the stockholders. Witness the "grab-n-go" Glidden paints at Walmart. Thus the added thought process that it is more important to sell one time to a larger number of people then to sell many times to fewer people. Sell crap, try to encourage the pull it off the shelf yourself customers, maximize marketing expense by trumping up your mediocre product, and don't care if the product fails. Their advertising is getting people to line up to buy their crap, so why would they worry about product failures?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> The process of providing customer care is very expensive. Hiring quality, quality training, paying those qualified people a decent wage, are all time consuming and expensive. But most of all, they are very difficult to quantify to the shareholders and the bean counters. That is the downward path that we are on. Investors want short term, massive gains on their investments, and customer service doesn't provide that as well as self service does. That's how The original creators of Home Depot and Lowe's and many, many other retailers "sold" their concepts to investors to begin with. In all honesty, having a paint department that has to be staffed to tint and shake paint is quite a burden to the stockholders. Witness the "grab-n-go" Glidden paints at Walmart. Thus the added thought process that it is more important to sell one time to a larger number of people then to sell many times to fewer people. Sell crap, try to encourage the pull it off the shelf yourself customers, maximize marketing expense by trumping up your mediocre product, and don't care if the product fails. Their advertising is getting people to line up to buy their crap, so why would they worry about product failures?


They don't have to worry when the only complaints they are getting are from their independent competitors. And for every painting or building contractor that complains about the big box centers lack of service, there are thousands of our neighbors happily going about their shopping at one of these places, either alone, or with an one of their "affordable" handymen.

At the end of the day, gizmos and gadgets take priority over paint and lumber.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

This 'paint company' has been on a steady decline for roughly the last 10 years IMO. Buying/forcing out managers and other competent staff and replacing them with mangers who are 30 and willing to work for $10 more than minimum wage. 

The bottles are still on the floor of the office. Exactly where the rep set them down and will stay there. 

Some invoices 'they found' have been traced back and shown as PAID by us already. Others not. A new twist is the bookkeeper has discovered (again on random invoices) they we were being taxed wrong. They somehow were charging us the rate from 2 provinces (states) over. Again not consistently, but randomly so we now have to pull out a calculator and check every invoice. 

This is all the beginning of the end of this company. Still not ready to name names, but it's been named in this thread and over the winter I will be shuffling my business elsewhere. 

To be continued


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not a Stock Market expert, but it looks like SW is holding its own. Morningstar


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

oldccm said:


> This 'paint company' has been on a steady decline for roughly the last 10 years IMO. Buying/forcing out managers and other competent staff and replacing them with mangers who are 30 and willing to work for $10 more than minimum wage.
> 
> The bottles are still on the floor of the office. Exactly where the rep set them down and will stay there.
> 
> ...


Wow. This doesn't look good for whoever it is. There sure seems to be an inordinate amount of stupidity and laziness going on. None of which is your fault, and it really shouldn't effect your business. And in all honesty, having me speculate what company it could be and you telling who it is are two completely different things. If I were you I wouldn't say a word about who it is.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I'm not a Stock Market expert, but it looks like SW is holding its own. Morningstar


Sw has been a blue chip stock for years. The biggest reason is their normal $7-8 billion in cash assets they maintain. And they Investors love that kind of stuff. It's how they managed to stay away from several forced buyout attempts.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Sw has been a blue chip stock for years. The biggest reason is their normal $7-8 billion in cash assets they maintain. And they Investors love that kind of stuff. It's how they managed to stay away from several forced buyout attempts.


The point is, they're not leaving the architectual paint manufacturing business anytime soon, despite any discrepencies they may have with customers.

But to get back on track with this thread, unless there are other agregious accounting errors imposed on any members here, I'm chalking it up to an unfortunate but isolated incident.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> The point is, they're not leaving the architectual paint manufacturing business anytime soon, despite any discrepencies they may have with customers.
> 
> But to get back on track with this thread, unless there are other agregious accounting errors imposed on any members here, I'm chalking it up to an unfortunate but isolated incident.


Hopefully.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Hopefully.


And its not like I haven't had problems with my independent supplier, but not nearly to the extent as oldcrumb's. I hope he definitely comes out ahead in this matter. They owe it to him. And he should enjoy the whiskey, or send it my way.


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

CApainter said:


> The point is, they're not leaving the architectual paint manufacturing business anytime soon, despite any discrepencies they may have with customers.
> 
> But to get back on track with this thread, *unless there are other agregious accounting errors* imposed on any members here, I'm chalking it up to an unfortunate but isolated incident.


I see other egregious errors.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

oldccm said:


> This 'paint company' has been on a steady decline for roughly the last 10 years IMO. Buying/forcing out managers and other competent staff and replacing them with mangers who are 30 and willing to work for $10 more than minimum wage.
> 
> The bottles are still on the floor of the office. Exactly where the rep set them down and will stay there.
> 
> ...


I know I'm a homer but Dulux is awesome. I've never had an issue with them, and they have products for your blow and Go's and your high end mansion, as well as great commercial products. 

Why would they never hire me as a rep?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> I know I'm a homer but Dulux is awesome. I've never had an issue with them, and they have products for your blow and Go's and your high end mansion, as well as great commercial products.
> 
> Why would they never hire me as a rep?


The "blow and go" phrase. :whistling2:

We all know it's a reality, but reps need to use euphemisms for those situations so that they are never associating their products with the splash 'n dash crowd.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I paint paint said:


> The "blow and go" phrase. :whistling2:
> 
> We all know it's a reality, but reps need to use euphemisms for those situations so that they are never associating their products with the splash 'n dash crowd.


Okay, low sheen eggshell. Or quality flats


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

journeymanPainter said:


> Okay, low sheen eggshell. Or quality flats


You're hired!


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

oldccm said:


> In a nutshell:
> 
> 18 months ago paint store switched to 'email' invoices. Every Monday we get the email, reconcile the invoices to jobs and pay the bill. Every month we paid what they sent but the statements never balanced out. They couldn't figure it out and neither could we. They said they would look into it. Time goes by and the current months still balance but it still shows money in the 120+ day account.
> 
> ...


 @oldccm, any updates on your predicament you care to make public?

I hope it is being, or has already been, resolved to your satisfaction.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

We settled on some, and they wrote off others. Was supposed to be the end of it, but now they just brought in a few more from June. We promptly told them where they could put those ones.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

oldccm said:


> We settled on some, and they wrote off others. Was supposed to be the end of it, but now they just brought in a few more from June. We promptly told them where they could put those ones.


Are you ever going to divulge the culprit?


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Can't, them SOB's would probably sue for slander. But they were named in this thread and there's a few more clues mixed in. If you want just PM me and I'll let you know


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

oldccm said:


> Can't, them SOB's would probably sue for slander. But they were named in this thread and there's a few more clues mixed in. If you want just PM me and I'll let you know


It's either Dulux or Sherwin. Both went through system changes, both have either been purchased, or purchased a 'big' company


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Correct.


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