# kitchen cabinet question



## Fishing and Painting (Nov 4, 2011)

I might be doing a cabinet refinish project. Looking to break into this market and trying to get a good system in place. My main question: Is complete removal of the lac/stain/paint via sanding required? I always thought that sanding was a must but some other threads I have read here inferred otherwise. With all the new tech I don't want any excess production rates. Anyway the system in my head is:

1) De-gloss with light abrasive,wash off any excess detergent, and dry.
2) Wipe down with alcohol pads.
3) Bin tie coat.
4) kem aqua surfacer, scuff sand, blow off dust, light tack cloth.
5) 2 coats kem aqua. 

If glazed I would do 1 coat tinted kem aqua > glaze> kem aqua clear to finish.

Any feed back is greatly appreciated.

-Nick


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Sounds about right. I use an oil based stain blocker and not bin because of the odor. Are you brushing/rolling or spraying?


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## Fishing and Painting (Nov 4, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> Sounds about right. I use an oil based stain blocker and not bin because of the odor. Are you brushing/rolling or spraying?


I plan on spraying. The house is unoccupied and flooring will be replaced. Also painting walls through out. I thought the circumstances made it a good opportunity to get my feet wet. going to shoot the Bin and surfacer w/ airless and 310ff. I like that Bin dries quickly. I plan on buying an air assisted rig or hvlp for the finish coat have not decided. Going real slow w/ the bin just on the skeleton inside staying well ventilated. Going to shoot the bin on the faces outside to limit fire hazard, then bring them back inside to shoot the surfacer and finish coats.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We have done a few, we haven't sprayed the boxes yet in occupied homes we bring the doors back to my house to spray them. We don't have an AA or HVLP yet those have been moved down our list of tools needed for the time being.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

BIN is probably unnecessary. I would use the opportunity to test a product you would be comfortable using in an occupied home.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Disagree. Play it safe. Run bin. You don't know what grime is there. You'll likely not be able to get all of it off. Sanding may compound the grime into the pores. You also may run into tannin bleed if you sand well enough.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I usually sand the surfacer to 320 or 400 to get rid of any orange peel. Any coarser and the sanding scratches show through the KA topcoat. KA+, right? The KA surfacer doesn't sand easily. Not sure BIN is needed - depends on existing finish. AAA sprays the KA great, but so does airless with a 208FF to 310FF. For air atomization, a "compliant" med. pressure, high volume gun (29 psi) works better than HVLP - better atomization.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yes on the bin unless it's brand new wood.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I think BIN can only be sprayed properly through an HVLP, or conventional spray system. I tried to spray bin once with my 1000+ max Graco (equal to a 695) and it wouldn't spray, just came out in a long rubbery type of goop.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

I was using bin 100%. Then recently switched to spraying stix 100%, and only pull out the bin if necessary.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Danahy said:


> I was using bin 100%. Then recently switched to spraying stix 100%, and only pull out the bin if necessary.


Stix is not a stain blocker.It's a gripper primer.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

We spray a lot of cabinets both new and repaint. I've been dedicated to finding a no-compromise, all waterborne system. Our latest project consists of previously stained and lacquered oak. Here is the system we employed with beautiful results:
1. Clean, used Jasco tsp substitute.
2. Sand with 180 RO, and 220 hand sand. This is when the majority of surface leveling takes place.
3. Wipe with DA.
4. Spray stix.
5. Spot fill, very light, quick, hand sand 220-320, blow clean with compressed air.
6. Caulk
7. Spray 046.
8. Very light hand sand 320-400, blow clean.
9. Spray two coats of advanced satin.
10. Wrap and deliver.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> We spray a lot of cabinets both new and repaint. I've been dedicated to finding a no-compromise, all waterborne system. Our latest project consists of previously stained and lacquered oak. Here is the system we employed with beautiful results:
> 1. Clean, used Jasco tsp substitute.
> 2. Sand with 180 RO, and 220 hand sand. This is when the majority of surface leveling takes place.
> 3. Wipe with DA.
> ...


Sounds great! try boxing satin and the semi makes a killer finish. I know it's not feasible on all jobs but that semi Advance leaves a beautiful finish when it cures but to knock the shine down a bit we will box with Satin 1-1. My other favorite is C2 semi hardest WB finish I've come across.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Advance will cure eventually to a great finish. But for cabs, the KA+ system (or about any wb lacquer system) offers these advantages:
1. Surfacer is really a surfacer. Levels much better than a primer, sands to powder in less than 30m.
2. Topcoat can be recoated in less than 30m, by that time achieves a hardness and feel similar to cured Advance, without the 6 month wait. I would say harder. Doors can be stacked soon after. Primer and topcoats can be completed same day. 

Regarding BIN, the KA+ system is not specified over existing finishes, so a bonding and/or stainblocker is a good idea. However, if the existing finish is a precat or conversion varnish, it seems like KA+ would be fine after sanding. You could do an adhesion test pretty quickly. The best way I've found to spray BIN is a gravity gun, straight out of the can. That keeps DNA use to a minimum if you use disposable cups like PPS or DeKups. Ammonia smells nice and also cleans up BIN 

Not saying you can't do well with Advance or other trim paints, but KA+ is worth trying.


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## Fishing and Painting (Nov 4, 2011)

more_prep said:


> I usually sand the surfacer to 320 or 400 to get rid of any orange peel. Any coarser and the sanding scratches show through the KA topcoat. KA+, right? The KA surfacer doesn't sand easily. Not sure BIN is needed - depends on existing finish. AAA sprays the KA great, but so does airless with a 208FF to 310FF. For air atomization, a "compliant" med. pressure, high volume gun (29 psi) works better than HVLP - better atomization.



Do you prefer the KA+ system as a whole over the regular KA?


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## Fishing and Painting (Nov 4, 2011)

more_prep said:


> Advance will cure eventually to a great finish. But for cabs, the KA+ system (or about any wb lacquer system) offers these advantages:
> 1. Surfacer is really a surfacer. Levels much better than a primer, sands to powder in less than 30m.
> 2. Topcoat can be recoated in less than 30m, by that time achieves a hardness and feel similar to cured Advance, without the 6 month wait. I would say harder. Doors can be stacked soon after. Primer and topcoats can be completed same day.
> 
> ...


Great thanks. Do you thin the material?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

more_prep said:


> Advance will cure eventually to a great finish. But for cabs, the KA+ system (or about any wb lacquer system) offers these advantages:
> 1. Surfacer is really a surfacer. Levels much better than a primer, sands to powder in less than 30m.
> 2. Topcoat can be recoated in less than 30m, by that time achieves a hardness and feel similar to cured Advance, without the 6 month wait. I would say harder. Doors can be stacked soon after. Primer and topcoats can be completed same day.
> 
> ...


How much DNA do you need to use???

Just guessing, but I'm assuming that you're talking about denatured alcohol (dEtOH), is that right? Do you use that in place of the suggested Dow product?


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## Danahy (Dec 11, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> Stix is not a stain blocker.It's a gripper primer.


I know. If necessary I use BIN.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

more_prep said:


> Advance will cure eventually to a great finish. But for cabs, the KA+ system (or about any wb lacquer system) offers these advantages: 1. Surfacer is really a surfacer. Levels much better than a primer, sands to powder in less than 30m. 2. Topcoat can be recoated in less than 30m, by that time achieves a hardness and feel similar to cured Advance, without the 6 month wait. I would say harder. Doors can be stacked soon after. Primer and topcoats can be completed same day. Regarding BIN, the KA+ system is not specified over existing finishes, so a bonding and/or stainblocker is a good idea. However, if the existing finish is a precat or conversion varnish, it seems like KA+ would be fine after sanding. You could do an adhesion test pretty quickly. The best way I've found to spray BIN is a gravity gun, straight out of the can. That keeps DNA use to a minimum if you use disposable cups like PPS or DeKups. Ammonia smells nice and also cleans up BIN  Not saying you can't do well with Advance or other trim paints, but KA+ is worth trying.


. I haven't used KA yet. Although, I want to try it after hearing good things from you, Straight_Lines and others here. Being a creature of habit, it's hard to try something new when your own system is performing adequately. To make sure I understand correctly, KA is a SW product? Clean's up with water? Levels equally to Advanced? Can't be used over existing finishes? Stain blocking? 

BTW, 6 months is a bit of an exaggeration for advanced cure time, at least by my experience. It says 3-5 days on the can. I usually tell people two weeks for shelves, just to be safe. I've verified that two weeks was more than enough for these shelves.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Yes, it's an investment getting a particular system to work, which is what really matters. By cure time, I meant to fullish hardness for Advance. To answer the other questions,Kem Aqua Plus is an SW Chemical Coatings product, part of OEM finishes line. It cleans up with water. I thin to 45 sec in a Ford4 cup. I actually like the KA+ surfacer better, with the KA original topcoat. It hardens faster. But it's naughty to mix systems. 

Kem Aqua levels better than Advance, but has a very short open time. Advance can be brushed like oil, but I don't like spraying it. Seems as if my problems with it are somewhat unique, though. 

Stain blocking seems good, never had an issue, and surfacer is supposed to stain block. I use BIN on bare wood to avoid grain raise and get tannin blocking, but this may not be needed. I just never fully trust wb primers on bare wood.

It takes about a half-cup of DNA to clean BIN out of a gravity gun. I keep a used jar of it for the first pass, then follow with clean DNA. It takes less if you take out the needle and use brushes.

From reading Straight Lines' posts and others, it looks like he has a very efficient system worked out with KA.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> . I haven't used KA yet. Although, I want to try it after hearing good things from you, Straight_Lines and others here. Being a creature of habit, it's hard to try something new when your own system is performing adequately. To make sure I understand correctly, KA is a SW product? Clean's up with water? Levels equally to Advanced? Can't be used over existing finishes? Stain blocking?
> 
> BTW, 6 months is a bit of an exaggeration for advanced cure time, at least by my experience. It says 3-5 days on the can. I usually tell people two weeks for shelves, just to be safe. I've verified that two weeks was more than enough for these shelves.
> 
> View attachment 23276


I use Advance on furniture as well and 6 months is a little long in the tooth it hardens up great and sprays great both horizontal and vertical from a airless . I've done sweet work with my proshot using Advance and C2 semi . I find they harden up and clean very well not an oil but as close as we can get. Nice work BTW.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Actually, technically Advance is an oil. 


Sent from my blah blah blah


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Actually, technically Advance is an oil. Sent from my blah blah blah


 Just putting the finishing touch on this set:









I don't understand how anything could possibly level better than Advanced. What is better than perfect?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Just putting the finishing touch on this set:
> 
> View attachment 23282
> 
> ...




That's some good paint **** right there! Oh yeah, you can't use the p word on this site.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Damon T said:


> That's some good paint **** right there! Oh yeah, you can't use the p word on this site.


I hear you! Regardless of how 'perfect' I believe our paint job is, the HO is coming home today and will probably present us with a 3 day punch list. I hope that doesn't happen, but won't be surprised at all when it does. Painting can be a thankless career.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Just putting the finishing touch on this set: I don't understand how anything could possibly level better than Advanced. What is better than perfect?


It's perfect until it yellows?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Carl said:


> It's perfect until it yellows?



That's a good question. I've only been using advance for a couple yrs and yellowing of whites seems to be minimal so far. I did notice the side of an advance can in my shop (never gets sun) yellowed badly in less than a year. 

It's supposed to yellow less/slower than traditional oil. Anyone been using it long enough to know more?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

So it yellows. So what. The oils always did. It's just a fact of life. Gives people a reason to paint again. "I just want the inside of my cabinet doors painted, they've yellowed. The outsides are fine. "


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

Yea, it's a fact of life which is why we use latex.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Carl said:


> Yea, it's a fact of life which is why we use latex.


Is that also in isle 15?


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## albertsean (Apr 14, 2017)

Fishing and Painting said:


> I might be doing a cabinet refinish project. Looking to break into this market and trying to get a good system in place. My main question: Is complete removal of the lac/stain/paint via sanding required? I always thought that sanding was a must but some other threads I have read here inferred otherwise. With all the new tech I don't want any excess production rates. Anyway the system in my head is:
> 
> 1) De-gloss with light abrasive,wash off any excess detergent, and dry.
> 2) Wipe down with alcohol pads.
> ...


You are doing a good work. You have shared a very cool ideas about kitchen cabinet. All the given 5 points are very helpful for me. I have started my new business and first time i have taken the order to repaint kitchen cabinet.


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## chicken (Feb 23, 2017)

albertsean said:


> You are doing a good work. You have shared a very cool ideas about kitchen cabinet. All the given 5 points are very helpful for me. I have started my new business and first time i have taken the order to repaint kitchen cabinet.


Albert you realized you just bumped two threads from 2014?


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> We spray a lot of cabinets both new and repaint. I've been dedicated to finding a no-compromise, all waterborne system. Our latest project consists of previously stained and lacquered oak. Here is the system we employed with beautiful results:
> 1. Clean, used Jasco tsp substitute.
> 2. Sand with 180 RO, and 220 hand sand. This is when the majority of surface leveling takes place.
> 3. Wipe with DA.
> ...




Why prime twice?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I would say to prime over the fillers and caulking to give a uniform sheen and consistent finish. Also gives more protection and a creamier look.
Hard to spot prime fillers and caulking and you have to sand all those spots, spits and overspray, and then the finish can turn out inconsistent.


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## albertsean (Apr 14, 2017)

*Kitchen Cabinet Question:*

Cabinets can be manufactured from different materials, for a durable and long lasting cabinets we recommend plywood or hardwood. These materials can provide a strong foundation that keeps your entire cabinet system stable and strong.


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