# Gel Stains Rock



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

As you may have noticed, I spend a fair amount of time and energy on product sampling for projects we do. This is a good thing because it gives me a strong opinion and factual influence on the spec process for these jobs. Lets face it, architects and designers dont really know much about product. 

For many years, I was set in my ways with products. Never tried anything new because what we were doing basically worked well. As they say: "if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got..."

This year, we have been doing more and more with gel stains. Holy crap, they are so much better than penetrating stains for fine work. Here are some samples in process in the shop. Dark walnut on mahogany.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I have used old masters gel stains for years, what was your process for the samples? how long did you leave it on?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> I have used old masters gel stains for years, what was your process for the samples? how long did you leave it on?


The client wanted to be on the dark dark side with this, which I disagree with. They wanted 3 coats of stain prior to topcoating. I have sampled two at one coat, one at two coats and one at three coats, all with 2 coats of clear. The three narrow samples were all from the same board for consistency of grain. The first two on the bench are the one coat stain application, which I prefer. As it goes darker on the others, the mahogany grain and figure is lost, which defeats the purpose of using an exotic wood. 

The process was an initial 220 sand, brush the stain on, let sit for about a minute and then wipe thoroughly. The clear coats were sanded in between coats at 320. I didnt do any sit time because gels dont penetrate much, especially at a starting point of 220 on mahogany. I started this high because they wanted even color tone and the smooth feel of a musical instrument. A dark penetrating stain on mahogany would be a trainwreck. I know because I have done it. Love the gel.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Well hopefully the builder uses good wood and you don't get to many different pieces with that type of wood it could be a recipe for a disaster... But the gel stain should help with that.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> Well hopefully the builder uses good wood and you don't get to many different pieces with that type of wood it could be a recipe for a disaster... But the gel stain should help with that.


These samples were done on flooring leftovers...the case and base material will be much higher than flooring grade and hand picked. It goes without saying that when they ask for this level of finish, they give us the canvas to produce it on.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Why the multiple applications of stain? Usually that is only done out of necessity when HO or designers change their minds after a project is stained. If you are going to do the dark colors, you really need to give the spray dye stains a try. Great transparency and as dark as you want to go. If molecule size of a pigment stain is the size of a skyscraper, the dye stain molecule size is the size of a single brick.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Why the multiple applications of stain? Usually that is only done out of necessity when HO or designers change their minds after a project is stained. If you are going to do the dark colors, you really need to give the spray dye stains a try. Great transparency and as dark as you want to go. If molecule size of a pigment stain is the size of a skyscraper, the dye stain molecule size is the size of a single brick.


The designer wanted it dark and already had a 3 coat sample that I was to match. Because I think that it looks too ebony and paint like with 3 coats, I decided to dial it back to 2 and then 1, which I think looks great. It has the desired tone without losing the mahogany look. The selling point is that it will be much more cost effective to do one coat of stain in the field than three, and it will look better. 

Spray dye stains sound interesting. Small steps, I'm sure I will end up there in the future. Thats the beauty of this trade. When we realize that we dont know everything, we never stop learning.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

A couple of months ago a designer had me stain a brand new maple staircase black. The maple hardwood flooring was a prefinished charcoal color and I had to get the treads to match and make the rails as black as I could. The stain from the flooring company was latex garbage so I used Minwax Ebony and went to work with samples. Ugh, what a nightmare. The treads had some red grains and the landing (not prefinished, but 3/4 maple strips) was a different animal of maple. I got the treads close and the landing is a bit darker. I wish I used a dye on the rails. Whole thing was a nightmare but came out fine after many hours. I knew the HO was putting a runner on it but when I went back to see it the dam runner covered almost the whole tread. LOL. People suck.

I dont think I will ever master staining wood. It it ALWAYS a new adventure.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I used to think staining trim should be cheaper than painting it. No more. It can be a real paint, especially dealing with dark colors on maple, blotchy pine, etc. I am still learning the spray stain thing, if I am on a job that is large enough to use subs, I will use them to do the spray stain since I do not do enough new construction to stay at the top of my game with it right now. It definitely a good tool to use though.


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

I will try some gel stains in the near future myself....I built a 76"x37.5"x15" bookcase using Aspen endglued boards from Lowes due to lack of time and being a novice.

The bookcase came out great for my first time building anything but the nature of Aspen and the panel boards along w/regular minwax oil stain resulted in the bookcase looking like a hardwood floor. I used a color called Ipswich Pine which would've have looked much nice w/an even finish. 

Jeremy


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I did a gell stain on some fiberglass garage doors one time. When I was finished I was cleaning up. The HO and Gc were talking as some one walked by they said. Man those look like real wood. The Ho said "What are you talking about those are real mahogany doors I paid a ton for them." She was for real she was all pissed that someone would even think that. I looked at the GC as he stood with a grin on his face.:jester:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Still loving the gel stains.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Final coats of clear, cut into grass wallpaper. Fun.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

Just curious Scott, why a gel stain on nice wood like that? Would not a regular penetrating stain work just fine and be easier to apply?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tsunamicontract said:


> Just curious Scott, why a gel stain on nice wood like that? Would not a regular penetrating stain work just fine and be easier to apply?


No. A penetrating stain in a dark tone on an exotic species would be a mess.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Mahogany has not been a problem for me with a regular stain. What issues are you seeing on with the dark colors that I am missing? It seems to take dark colors evenly and naturally, no blotching, etc


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Mahogany has not been a problem for me with a regular stain. What issues are you seeing on with the dark colors that I am missing? It seems to take dark colors evenly and naturally, no blotching, etc


I havent done it on a large scale with penetrating stain, but in the testing I have done, with dark stains, it shows a little uneven and blotchy because mahogany is kind of soft. For this project, being rather high profile, I definitely preferred the look of gel. That is becoming more and more the case across the board. 

This project was also complicated by the fact that much of the cabinet work was finished in a local shop using gel stain, so we had the challenge of matching up to what they did. The safe bet was to use the exact same product, which we did.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Can you put gel stain over exsiting fadding stain, and get a good product????

I have a door that basicly needs to be stripped and stained or painted, but Im wondering if I can sand it down, and gel stain it, to save the time from stripping it. 

any suggestions appreciated.

thanks
Dave mac


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> Can you put gel stain over exsiting fadding stain, and get a good product????
> 
> I have a door that basicly needs to be stripped and stained or painted, but Im wondering if I can sand it down, and gel stain it, to save the time from stripping it.
> 
> ...


from my exp.. I would strip it...


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Mak

thats what I was thinking, thanks


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I was looking over the front doors I had done recently, and realized that they are Andes Walnut, not Mahogany, so I withdraw my statement that the mahogany takes stain well. My mistake.


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## Gnarlywood (May 30, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Final coats of clear, cut into grass wallpaper. Fun.


Greetings Scott,

Nice looking final product. I take it from your comment this was site finished. Wouldn't this have been a great time to prefinish? (and avoid the hassle & worry of cutting in? You cannot safely mask grass wallpaper can you?)

Along another thread, I LOVE dye stains. I suggest trying them. I have not found a gel stain that does not use pigments, which HIDE the beauty of the wood (like thinned down paint - which is waht they are). Dyes help the wood's beauty sing thru the finish. Pigments muffle it.

I got your point that the cabinet shop already used the gel stains (which is a surprise to me, as cabinet shop finishers should be familiar with dye stains). Check them out for another project.

If you don't mind, what was your top coat??

thanks,
Gnarlywood


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## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

Any and all soft woods get pre stain , gel stain rocks left on or wipped.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Gel Stains work great on Fiberglass doors also. Only one of these is wood, the arched one.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Gnarlywood said:


> Greetings Scott,
> 
> Nice looking final product. I take it from your comment this was site finished. Wouldn't this have been a great time to prefinish? (and avoid the hassle & worry of cutting in? You cannot safely mask grass wallpaper can you?)
> 
> ...


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## JAYJAY (Sep 13, 2008)

Send me a copy please.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JAYJAY said:


> Send me a copy please.


http://www.painttalk.com/f2/congrats-scott-apc-article-3503/index2/

Here's a thread from last year that the article is in.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

I used some gel stain last month for the first time. It truly saved me, as the standard penetrating stains would not get the wood dark enough to please the customer no matter what I tried. The gel stain allowed me to apply a couple of times to get it to the right tone.

It was a bit messy, but nowhere as messy as the ultra-thin penetrating stains. All of the crown, casing, and framing was installed _before_ staining, so the gel helped considerably to stay off the walls. (If this were my job from the beginning, I would've prestained fo' sho).


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Every stain has its own application. I'll always use primarily wiping and gel stains, but some circumstances call for penetrating stains. I've also used alcohol dyes quite a bit. Just a tip to some of you guys....use a wood conditioner on veneers even if they are a hardwood veneer. Veneers dont take stain the same as solid pieces so if you're doing darker colors you'll be surprised at how well everything comes out.


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Final coats of clear, cut into grass wallpaper. Fun.


How does the homeowner walk around with hands that big?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

I am told that gel stains work wonders on fibreglass doors. I've always used Sikkens translucent stains for them though. But it takes three days to do them that way. And i'm never overly pleased with the results. 

Tell me, what do you topcoat the gel stain with? (On a fibreglass door). ?? Poly?? Varnish??


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## Paint Works (Aug 1, 2007)

Rcon said:


> I am told that gel stains work wonders on fibreglass doors. I've always used Sikkens translucent stains for them though. But it takes three days to do them that way. And i'm never overly pleased with the results.
> 
> Tell me, what do you topcoat the gel stain with? (On a fibreglass door). ?? Poly?? Varnish??


Spar varnish for exterior entry doors. and re apply varnish every two years.


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