# So I Gardz'd the new texture....



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I talked about this a little on another thread. I heard great things about using gardz to prime new texture, so I tried it out on this house. On the plus side, I love the way it makes the texture bulletproof, and the wall waterproof. 

However, I have some problems now. I sprayed it on with a 619 without backrolling. I thought I was doing it pretty good, but when it dried, there were shiny streaks. (The directions say the sheen should be uniform when dry. I didnt read that.) I didnt think it would matter, but those streaks are flashing through multiple topcoats of flat paint, sprayed and backrolled, then rolled out again. So I rolled another coat of gardz on the lids, and all the walls I hadnt first coated, and then on the walls I had first coated. Even on the unpainted walls, the sheen is still streaky even after the 2nd rolled gardz coat. They're definitely coming out better after the 2nd gardz, but its giving all the paint a bit of a sheen, and I have a feeling its not gonna touch up for chit. Im using PPG Pure Performance Flat on the walls, and PPG Flat Mopako on the lids, BTW.

I have to do the garage at a later time. Im gonna try the gardz one more time. Im gonna backroll one wall, and on another wall, Im gonna use a smaller tip, like a 513 and spray a lighter coat, to see if I can get it any more uniform. I cant tell if the streaks are from not putting it on heavy enough, or if its too heavy on the shiny parts.... It really penetrates, so its hard to say.

Any thoughts, advice, "good luck with that," etc?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

I've never been a huge fan of Gardz, those who love it say ,oh ya you've got to put on 2 or 3 coats then it's really great. I like to prime once and get on with my life!


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## jr.sr. painting (Dec 6, 2013)

I have noticed the clear primers are really thin and build up quick. We always use the rx35. Whenever we are repriming mud work it's always the entire wall for the reason your describing. Too much in one spot and it's gonna flash. What about a higher sheen paint? With that much guardz I'm sure your topcoat will go on like glass and dry out fine


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Good luck with that... got pics?

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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

My experience with Gardz is that it works well to seal a porous surface, but if it is not spread thin, or if it is on a previously sealed surface, it dries so slowly that it will sag and leave streaks. That is why I have never understood the second coat. The only time a second coat seemed necessary for me was on old plaster that really drank up the initial coat.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Thoughts on Gardz*



Woodco said:


> I talked about this a little on another thread. I heard great things about using gardz to prime new texture, so I tried it out on this house. On the plus side, I love the way it makes the texture bulletproof, and the wall waterproof.
> 
> However, I have some problems now. I sprayed it on with a 619 without backrolling. I thought I was doing it pretty good, but when it dried, there were shiny streaks. (The directions say the sheen should be uniform when dry. I didnt read that.) I didnt think it would matter, but those streaks are flashing through multiple topcoats of flat paint, sprayed and backrolled, then rolled out again. So I rolled another coat of gardz on the lids, and all the walls I hadnt first coated, and then on the walls I had first coated. Even on the unpainted walls, the sheen is still streaky even after the 2nd rolled gardz coat. They're definitely coming out better after the 2nd gardz, but its giving all the paint a bit of a sheen, and I have a feeling its not gonna touch up for chit. Im using PPG Pure Performance Flat on the walls, and PPG Flat Mopako on the lids, BTW.
> 
> ...


As I have said before, I have never sprayed Gardz, so I cannot speak as to how that should be done.

I have brushed and rolled it many times, though. I just got finished with a 7 x 6 bathroom with 10 foot walls in an auto body shop. The walls in this bathroom had lots of water damage from a roof leak and possibly from flooding from a nearby creek. It has been UGLY for years. A friend who knows the owner and who does work there from time to time asked me to come in and fix the bathroom, so I did. This is because the owner could not find anyone willing to do work that he might not want to have paid for anyway.

There was peeling paint and plaster on all walls. The wall (which was perpendicular to the outside wall) that had the toilet and vanity was so bad that I took off all the smooth plaster as well as so much sandy material behind the toilet area down to the brick wall behind it that I thought I was scooping out wet sand at the beach!

Here is the blow by blow from my invoice:

6/18/17 5 pm – 1 am 6 hours

Scraped lots of damaged wall material off bathroom walls; took all material off of narrow wall next to toilet; filled in corner of narrow wall with Durabond and let harden; attached concrete board to narrow wall next to toilet, drilled out holes on metal corner bead, then filled in gaps on either side of concrete board with Durabond, let dry then applied a thin coat of Durabond to smooth edge next to metal corner bead.

6/19/17 4 pm – 6 pm 2 hours

More scraping; applied heavy coat of Gardz sealer to east wall to solidify surface.

6/20/17 1:15 pm – 7 pm 5 hours

Sanded and scraped east wall to get sandy grit off, then applied another coat of Gardz sealer to soak in and solidify wall; finished scraping rest of walls

6/21/17 1:15 pm – 7 pm 5 hours

Finished coating back wall with Durabond; patched a few other areas with Durabond; taped corner by toilet as well as skim coated outside corner next to toilet.

6/22/17 12:15 pm – 6 pm 5 hours

Skim coated narrow wall next to toilet to fill in recess; skim coated areas by floor that were damaged; soaked a sponge in Durabond, then stuck it into hole in ceiling above toilet; skim coated 2 sq ft area repaired with green drywall twice to fill in; skim coated back wall with Easy Sand to fill in gaps.

6/23/17 12:15 pm – 6 pm 5 hours

Finished all skim coating.

6/24/17 1 pm – 9 pm 6 hours

Scraped spackle and paint off of windows, then taped edges of windows; scraped tops of baseboards, then sanded all walls; applied 3 coats of Gardz sealer on most skimcoated areas and 4 coats on whole back wall; cut in walls with semi-gloss paint; brushed out frame around window; rolled 2 coats of Behr Premium Plus Ultra Semi-Gloss; cleaned up and left.

**********************************************************************************************

There are a lot of little details I have left out. I was thinking of walking off the job 2 hours into it, but out of respect for my good friend who asked me to come in and do this, I pressed on.

As I was applying Gardz over the skim coats, I was reminded of posts here where I have told others that they did not Gardz enough. When I was Gardzing the wall that I had all but scraped clean, skim coated and applied 2 coats of Gardz to and still saw flashing, I thought to myself, what will I tell my brothers and sisters here at Paint Talk if I go ahead and paint semi-gloss directly over a surface that I visually thought was not Gardzed enough and it flashes on me. Never may this happen! I went out and got some more Gardz, applied 2 more coats and put the fan on to dry, then went out to buy the paint.

I came back and went to work cutting in the semi-gloss, tan over pea green and Easy Sand white. Using an Arroworthy Rembrandt 2" sash brush, the paint flowed over the Gardz like a hot knife through butter! As I was cutting in I was thinking about all of those here at Paint Talk and what their experiences were in brushing various brands and grades of paints and thinking "I wonder how the paint I am brushing over the immense amount of Gardz I have applied to these walls would compare to any other situation that those here might experience."

I really liked how the BEHR PREMIUM PLUS ULTRA INTERIOR SEMI-GLOSS brushed out over the Gardz. Now it was time to roll out the walls. I chose my current go-to roller sleave, the Wooster 5/16" Micro Plush that appears to be woven compared to most other microfiber roller sleaves. The paint went on like warm butter. I almost one-coated the walls,but to be sure, I put the fan on and took a break, then rolled a second coat on. 225 sq ft x 2 coats of Behr Premium Plus Ultra Interior Semi-Gloss (these numbers are directed to a member who commented on Behr coverage in another post), 450 sq ft in all. No drips and a nice even coat and even sheen. I used 3/5 of a gallon of paint.

I was happy with the job. The owner was happy with the job and cut me a check today without any falderal or complaints. We even talked about doing the other bathroom!

I mentioned that i used Behr. I think I could have used almost any other paint over the surfaces I had Gardzed and they would have come out great.

Day in and day out painting? Is there really such a thing? You want to experiment?

All that being said, my experience with new drywall is that one coat of Gardz fully applied, followed by a second coat, should give you a really good surface to apply 2 coats of finish paint to. If you see dull spots where Gardz has been applied, this is where you can expect flashing to occur. Apply Gardz to those areas and you should be good to go for a uniform finish.

I think I left something out, but i don't remember right now what it is.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Life Gardz*



Brushman4 said:


> I've never been a huge fan of Gardz, those who love it say ,oh ya you've got to put on 2 or 3 coats then it's really great. I like to prime once and get on with my life!


Tell us more about your life. 

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Whenever I reapplied it, it just made the whole thing shinier. It didnt even it out, like I hoped. It made it better, though. But yeah, I'm not into having to do several coats of it just to make the topcoat brush and roll nice... Thats wasting time and material. Like I said, if my tests in the garage go smooth, I'll consider trying it again. It turned out to be very cost effective, with the serious deal my paint rep gave me on it. But, as far as putting paint on top of it, I'm not seeing the huge benefit of Gardz. 

Actually, When I sprayed and backrolled the lids, I had to do a second coat, because the paint didnt soak into the texture. Rolling over a slightly porous surface makes the paint cover better. When I figured that out and stopped backrolling, it was fine, except the flashing. It seems like the paint has a sheen to it now, and makes the big lids look kinda crappy. Maybe if I didnt have to use flat paint on the walls, it would work better. That wouldnt help the ceilings though....


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Tell us more about your life.
> 
> futtyos


What would you like to know?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

futtyos said:


> As I have said before, I have never sprayed Gardz, so I cannot speak as to how that should be done.
> 
> I have brushed and rolled it many times, though. I just got finished with a 7 x 6 bathroom with 10 foot walls in an auto body shop. The walls in this bathroom had lots of water damage from a roof leak and possibly from flooding from a nearby creek. It has been UGLY for years. A friend who knows the owner and who does work there from time to time asked me to come in and fix the bathroom, so I did. This is because the owner could not find anyone willing to do work that he might not want to have paid for anyway.
> 
> ...


WOW!!, Do you write up all your invoices like that?? I would be spending half my life at my keyboard at that rate:vs_laugh:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> What would you like to know?


 
nothing:biggrin:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Time & materials*



chrisn said:


> WOW!!, Do you write up all your invoices like that?? I would be spending half my life at my keyboard at that rate:vs_laugh:


I do time and materials for the GC I paint hi rise condos for. At the beginning of each job I start an invoice, then every day when I come home (or the next morning) I put down what I did, how many hours I worked and what materials I bought that day. It is the only way I can remember what I did. If I go a day or 2 without writing it down I somethimes forget and just have to put down the hours. The GC wants to know what I did, so I am used to doing it this way now.

Actually, this makes invoicing a lot easier as I don't have to create the whole thing from scratch when the job is finished, just add up all the numbers. And it is especially invaluable when doing time and materials jobs!

Anyone here who has sat down at the end of a big job and tried to create and organize an invoice from scratch knows what a headache it can be. Unless, of course, you are like W.C. Fields in Man on the Flying Trapeze aka THe Memory Expert.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Rolling vs spraying*



Woodco said:


> Whenever I reapplied it, it just made the whole thing shinier. It didnt even it out, like I hoped. It made it better, though. But yeah, I'm not into having to do several coats of it just to make the topcoat brush and roll nice... Thats wasting time and material. Like I said, if my tests in the garage go smooth, I'll consider trying it again. It turned out to be very cost effective, with the serious deal my paint rep gave me on it. But, as far as putting paint on top of it, I'm not seeing the huge benefit of Gardz.
> 
> Actually, When I sprayed and backrolled the lids, I had to do a second coat, because the paint didnt soak into the texture. Rolling over a slightly porous surface makes the paint cover better. When I figured that out and stopped backrolling, it was fine, except the flashing. It seems like the paint has a sheen to it now, and makes the big lids look kinda crappy. Maybe if I didnt have to use flat paint on the walls, it would work better. That wouldnt help the ceilings though....


Woodco, as I have mentioned earlier, I have never sprayed Gardz, only brushed and rolled. I have not found any better method for getting an even sheen, including with flat paint. At the round hi rise condos I paint at, the outside wall is all windows, from floor to ceiling. Some of the walls get unbelievable amounts of light at certain times of the day. If I don't Gardz those walls, flat paint will flash. With Gardz, all is well.

It may be true that Gardz makes the topcoat of paint somewhat shinier. The semi-gloss job I just did shines like the dickens, but the bathroom is in an autobody/mechanics shop, so the walls need to be easily cleaned.

Just for the heck of it, roll out one small room with 2 coats of Gardz, then roll the paint on and see what it is like. I guarantee you will feel like you died and went to painter's heaven!    You will wish all jobs would go so smoothly!

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I wish I would have known it makes the topcoat shinier. I want my flat to be FLAT, especially on the lids. They look matte now, and I've found that matte paints dont touch up for chit, and Im afraid I screwed myself on the touch-up for this one.

Worse case scenario, is there a way to 'undo' the gardz effect with a primer? 123 or something? luckily, I have some time to figure this out...


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodco said:


> I wish I would have known it makes the topcoat shinier. I want my flat to be FLAT, especially on the lids. They look matte now, and I've found that matte paints dont touch up for chit, and Im afraid I screwed myself on the touch-up for this one.
> 
> Worse case scenario, is there a way to 'undo' the gardz effect with a primer? 123 or something? luckily, I have some time to figure this out...




Yeah, you could put a cheap porous drywall primer on it. Gardz seals the surface so well that it provides maximum sheen hold out for top coats. Generally, that actually makes touch up easier because you don't have differences in absorption/sheen. 


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*flattening Gardz*



Woodco said:


> I wish I would have known it makes the topcoat shinier. I want my flat to be FLAT, especially on the lids. They look matte now, and I've found that matte paints dont touch up for chit, and Im afraid I screwed myself on the touch-up for this one.
> 
> Worse case scenario, is there a way to 'undo' the gardz effect with a primer? 123 or something? luckily, I have some time to figure this out...


Have you applied 2 coats of ceiling paint to any of the ceilings yet to see what that finish will look like? Perhaps the 2nd coat will dull the finish up since it is going over a flat 1st coat. If this is the case, then your problem is solved. I would check this out first before you go priming it with a white primer. I would roll out the walls with 2 coats as well to see how they look before you try anything else.

One of the great benefits to using Gardz (as directed) is that it seals the surface, preventing the water in the paint from being sucked up into the ceiling or wall. This allows for slow evaporation of the water out into the room, giving you ample time to work the paint, remove roller lines before they get set (by the water being sucked up before you can roll them out) and keep a wet edge.

If you are spraying everything and not backrolling, then this might not be a factor in your work.

I have used a number of ceiling paints over Gardz. While I do not like the experience of rolling the paint itself, BM 508 Waterborne Ceiling Paint seems to gives the best, lowest shining finish.

What ceiling and wall paints are you using? What sheens on the walls?

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Tell us more about your life.
> 
> futtyos


Well when I little my momma used to call me Sonny, because I was so bright.:biggrin:
I enjoy good eating, and love to cook. I've been known to tip a few CC Manhattan's in the evening. I'm a huge Hockey and Football fan, love to listen to Classic Rock!
I like to prime once and get it on, bang a gong.It's not that I'm lazy, it's just that i'm very good at doing nothing.
Well that's all for now, if I think of anything else you'll be the first to know.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> I do time and materials for the GC I paint hi rise condos for. At the beginning of each job I start an invoice, then every day when I come home (or the next morning) I put down what I did, how many hours I worked and what materials I bought that day. It is the only way I can remember what I did. If I go a day or 2 without writing it down I somethimes forget and just have to put down the hours. The GC wants to know what I did, so I am used to doing it this way now.
> 
> Actually, this makes invoicing a lot easier as I don't have to create the whole thing from scratch when the job is finished, just add up all the numbers. And it is especially invaluable when doing time and materials jobs!
> 
> ...


Or you could just get one of these!
https://www.amazon.com/EVISTR-Digit...8681662&sr=1-3&keywords=voice+recorders+small


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Technology*



Brushman4 said:


> Or you could just get one of these!
> https://www.amazon.com/EVISTR-Digit...8681662&sr=1-3&keywords=voice+recorders+small


That's actually a great idea. I just wonder how long it would last on the job or whether I would rmember to use it. A friend of mine who does handyman work used a small pocket recorder years ago. I'll have to think on this one.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> Have you applied 2 coats of ceiling paint to any of the ceilings yet to see what that finish will look like? Perhaps the 2nd coat will dull the finish up since it is going over a flat 1st coat. If this is the case, then your problem is solved. I would check this out first before you go priming it with a white primer. I would roll out the walls with 2 coats as well to see how they look before you try anything else.
> 
> One of the great benefits to using Gardz (as directed) is that it seals the surface, preventing the water in the paint from being sucked up into the ceiling or wall. This allows for slow evaporation of the water out into the room, giving you ample time to work the paint, remove roller lines before they get set (by the water being sucked up before you can roll them out) and keep a wet edge.
> 
> ...


Yes, I sprayed and backrolled one coat, then sprayed another on top. I saw the streaks. Rolled another coat of paint the other direction. Didnt help. ReGardzed, and and after about 4 more coats of paint, it looks acceptable. Granted, I only had to do this on the big light ceilings. By this time we had a good portion of the main walls 1st coated, and they were streaky too. SO, Then took my 18" and rerolled every main wall in the house, whether over the gardz, or over the 1st coat of paint. On the plus side, the gardz goes a LONG way. I only used three or four gallons to reroll everything.

So, today, I started 1st coating the rooms with different colors. This was painting over two coats of gardz. Heres what I noticed: Yes, it holds a wet edge longer. IDK if thats a good thing. It took longer to dry. The other thing I noticed, is since it has the water barrier, the paint doesnt 'hide' quite as well.I have three very bright ultradeep base colors, and I may have to put an extra coat because of this. It is flat paint, so it covers a little better, but up towards the ceiling where the white lid paint was sprayed was definitley covering better than the gardz'd walls. As for as making it easier to apply the paint... I really didnt notice a difference at all. 

Usually, when I spray lids, I can spray and backroll (or not)
one good coat of mopako (whether the surface is primed or not) and it looks perfect. Backrolling over the gardz made it not cover as well. Once I figured that out, I stopped backrolling any lid that wasn't huge and well lit. The backrolled and second coated ones looked no different than the ones I didnt backroll. Backrolling was a waste of time, basically, AND I had to put a second coat on top.

I am using PPG Pure Performance flat on the walls, and Mopako on the lids. Mopako is designed to be dead flat, and very easy to touch up. Im scared the paint wont touch up now. That will only matter on certain big ceilings though, so hopefully it wont screw me up too bad....

Like I said previously, I love how it it penetrates the texture to make it really hard and waterproof, but its not worth the extra headache, and in the future, I will likely use a different primer. I still have the garage to do, so I will try a couple other things, (like not spraying so thick, and backrolling) It could be that I just sprayed it too heavy, and thats why it streaked. The streaks were the worse on the biggest lighted ceilings, which I made a point to spray extra heavy. I'd love to be able to use it though, but I dont want to spend any more time and money dealing with the drawbacks.....


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Roll the garage*



Woodco said:


> Yes, I sprayed and backrolled one coat, then sprayed another on top. I saw the streaks. Rolled another coat of paint the other direction. Didnt help. ReGardzed, and and after about 4 more coats of paint, it looks acceptable. Granted, I only had to do this on the big light ceilings. By this time we had a good portion of the main walls 1st coated, and they were streaky too. SO, Then took my 18" and rerolled every main wall in the house, whether over the gardz, or over the 1st coat of paint. On the plus side, the gardz goes a LONG way. I only used three or four gallons to reroll everything.
> 
> So, today, I started 1st coating the rooms with different colors. This was painting over two coats of gardz. Heres what I noticed: Yes, it holds a wet edge longer. IDK if thats a good thing. It took longer to dry. The other thing I noticed, is since it has the water barrier, the paint doesnt 'hide' quite as well.I have three very bright ultradeep base colors, and I may have to put an extra coat because of this. It is flat paint, so it covers a little better, but up towards the ceiling where the white lid paint was sprayed was definitley covering better than the gardz'd walls. As for as making it easier to apply the paint... I really didnt notice a difference at all.
> 
> ...


There are some variables on your job that I may have not yet come up against, like rolling very bright ultradeep base colors. I have said that I have never sprayed Gardz. 

Why don't you roll the Gardz out in the garage? Use a 1/2" microfiber. If you are worried about too much stipple in the Gardz, use a Wooster 5/16" Micro Plush roller. On the first skim-coated ceiling (over a texture) I did, I started with a 1/4" or 3/8" nap roller. After a while I noticed that the ceiling (which had been skim-coated with Easy Sand, then topped with a USG product that dries yellowish) was sucking up the Gardz like crazy. I started looking around my friend's house for a thicker roller cover and found a 3/4" cover. That worked like a charm. When I Gardzed his newly drywalled bedroom walls, I believe I used the 5/16" Wooster Micro Plush. At my sister's in southern MO, I used a Whizz Microlon 1/2" microfiber roller because the ceiling was textured, but never sealed, primed or painted, and it worked just fine.

You probably already know this, but it bears repeating for others here: when rolling Gardz, start out with easy pressure and gradually increase to where you are getting the product on without squeezing it out of the roller. When you roll the Gardz out, use your eyes to tell you how well it is saturating. The drywall and mud will get darker to a point. After that, I would say that the first coat is done and needs to dry. I find that a first coat of Gardz ALWAYS goes on with more work than a second coat just as with a white primer. The 2nd coat should go on lighter and easier as the surface has mostly been sealed. I am guessing that by the time you have finished rolling out the ceiling and walls, it should be dry where you started and you can just continue with the 2nd coat. If it is really humid you might have to wait for it to dry or put a high velocity fan on like I do.

As far as streaks go, I always see streaks where saturated and drying Gardz meet newly rolled Gardz. It looked wierd to me at first, but I found out that as long as I got a solid 2 coats on, the 2 coats of paint I put on over it would cover well and look even. I just did a 6' x 7' x 10' high bathroom using lots of Gardz, both to seal the damaged walls and to seal the heavy skim coats of Durabond 20 followed by Easy Sand 20. My first coat of tan semi-gloss went on like a dream and the 2nd coat did as well. The owner of the auto body repair and painting shop, who normally complains and moans about the cost of work he has to pay for, didn't bat an eye when i handed him my bill and said he would have his wife write me a check then and there, after which we looked at the other bathroom and discussed doing that as well.

I realize that I appear to be inordinately passionate about Gardz, but I have had so many jobs that got screwed up because I didn't have a product like this, that when I came across it and found out how well it could save my butt, I can't talk good about it enough.

I have had some problems with using Gardz that I am puzzled by, but I am still learning. Your experience puzzles me. The only thing I see you doing different from what I do is spraying Gardz instead of rolling it and working it into the surface. That might be the key. That is why I ask you to try rolling out the garage like I said before you paint it.

As far as the paint taking longer to dry when applied over Gardz, that is what I want! Keeping a wet edge is what it is all about! I don't want the paint to dry fast! I want an even and uniform looking coat. That is why i love using Gardz. There are other surfaces that will help give an even coat, like walls recently painted with an eggshell finish. I did one 2 years ago to change the color and was able to get 700 sq ft per gallon coverage with 2 coats. I figured this out after the job was done, so I wasn't trying for olympic records.

Sometimes I feel like Paint Talk is a gathering place for painters from parallell universes where what works in one universe does not work in another. I also wonder if quantum mechanics plays a part as far as the anticipation of the observer (painter in this case) has an effect on the outcome of the finished product - I hate this paint, so it will not work - I love this paint, so it will work.

Woodco, I feel bad that you decided to use Gardz for the first time (was it the first time?) on such a large job before getting used to it and how to apply it. Perhaps you might want to contact a painter who went to work for Rustoleum/Zinsser, Erik Jannusch. I have contacted him several times as he is a Gardz enthusiast. Here is his contact info at Rustoleum:


(877) 385-8155 [email protected] Tell him a member of Paint Talk referred you to him.

futtyos


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

futtyos said:


> That's actually a great idea. I just wonder how long it would last on the job or whether I would rmember to use it. A friend of mine who does handyman work used a small pocket recorder years ago. I'll have to think on this one.
> 
> futtyos


There's an app for smartphones. It's called memo. Type or voice. Easy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> That's actually a great idea. I just wonder how long it would last on the job or whether I would rmember to use it. A friend of mine who does handyman work used a small pocket recorder years ago. I'll have to think on this one.
> 
> futtyos


You're most welcome.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Why would you use.......never mind.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> Why would you use.......never mind.


Why would I use what? Dont leave me hangin.

PPG? They give me great prices and customer service.

Pure Performance? Its good paint and I get a great price.

Flat? The designer wants it for some reason.....

Mopako? Its cheap and touches up great. Its my go to on ceilings, and usually for the wall primer as well.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

futtyos said:


> I do time and materials for the GC I paint hi rise condos for. At the beginning of each job I start an invoice, then every day when I come home (or the next morning) I put down what I did, how many hours I worked and what materials I bought that day. It is the only way I can remember what I did. If I go a day or 2 without writing it down I somethimes forget and just have to put down the hours. The GC wants to know what I did, so I am used to doing it this way now.
> 
> Actually, this makes invoicing a lot easier as I don't have to create the whole thing from scratch when the job is finished, just add up all the numbers. And it is especially invaluable when doing time and materials jobs!
> 
> ...


I'll bet the GC doesn't give similarly detailed accounts to his customers so unless the he's also paying you for your time while doing these invoices I'd just write "cleaning" and "sanding". Then "priming", followed by "top coating". Better yet, just use "prep" and "painting". Writing as much as you are is way over the top IMO.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Gardz on texture. There is no benefit over just a good drywall primer. (PPG 6-2 for example)


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*It's easy for me.*



RH said:


> I'll bet the GC doesn't give similarly detailed accounts to his customers so unless the he's also paying you for your time while doing these invoices I'd just write "cleaning" and "sanding". Then "priming", followed by "top coating". Better yet, just use "prep" and "painting". Writing as much as you are is way over the top IMO.


It may seem way over the top if you take the whole thing into account, but writing up the little blurb I do for each day takes only a couple minutes tops, so I don't mind. And I am used to it now.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Experiment time?*



PACman said:


> Gardz on texture. There is no benefit over just a good drywall primer. (PPG 6-2 for example)


PAC, can you name one drywall primer that will soak through residual dust and into the new drywall and make that dust a permanent part of the wall like Gardz does? Is there a primer for new drywall that will pass a tape test as well as a sealer like Gardz that soaks into the drywall?

Brian Havana of Jack Pauhl had a lot to say about Gardz vs drywall primers. He used to post regularly here. Here is a link to a 2008 discussion (with photos) he gave on testing 14 drywall primers against both Gardz and some wall paint as well.

https://jackpauhl.wordpress.com/tag/gardz/

Unless I come across something better than Gardz for new drywall, that is what I will continue to use.

futtyos


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PACman said:


> Gardz on texture. There is no benefit over just a good drywall primer. (PPG 6-2 for example)




The benefits that I see are how well it seals the surface, provides maximum sheen hold out, and bonds well even in the presence of slight surface dust. 

I haven't used the PPG 6-2, how do you think it would compete with Gardz in those categories? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

futtyos said:


> PAC, can you name one drywall primer that will soak through residual dust and into the new drywall and make that dust a permanent part of the wall like Gardz does? Is there a primer for new drywall that will pass a tape test as well as a sealer like Gardz that soaks into the drywall?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I remember an epic PT thread on that article. It went pages and pages and ended up in a battle between Jack Paul and Vermont painter about the efficacy of drywall primer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> PAC, can you name one drywall primer that will soak through residual dust and into the new drywall and make that dust a permanent part of the wall like Gardz does? Is there a primer for new drywall that will pass a tape test as well as a sealer like Gardz that soaks into the drywall?
> 
> Brian Havana of Jack Pauhl had a lot to say about Gardz vs drywall primers. He used to post regularly here. Here is a link to a 2008 discussion (with photos) he gave on testing 14 drywall primers against both Gardz and some wall paint as well.
> 
> ...


dust should be removed. gardz is a big overkill for a flat topcoat. That's all i am saying. And i really don't give a f*ck about what some painter with an agenda to prove says about drywall primers. I'll stick with what Sherwin Williams, PPG, Benjamin Moore, Duron, California, Pratt & Lambert, ZINSSER, and several other paint company chemists say before i sell Gardz for a drywall primer under a flat topcoat. WHY? BECAUSE OF WHAT JUST F*CKING HAPPENED TO THE OP, THAT'S WHY! IT CAN CAUSE FLASHING ISSUES WHEN USED UNDER A FLAT TOPCOAT!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> The benefits that I see are how well it seals the surface, provides maximum sheen hold out, and bonds well even in the presence of slight surface dust.
> 
> I haven't used the PPG 6-2, how do you think it would compete with Gardz in those categories?
> 
> ...


For a flat topcoat it is much better then gardz if you really want to know. That is the primer PPG would recommend for FLAT Pure Performance on bare drywall. Now most of their stores used to carry gardz, so why would they recommend against using it under a flat topcoat? I'm sticking with the paint chemists on this one.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PACman said:


> For a flat topcoat it is much better then gardz if you really want to know. That is the primer PPG would recommend for FLAT Pure Performance on bare drywall. Now most of their stores used to carry gardz, so why would they recommend against using it under a flat topcoat? I'm sticking with the paint chemists on this one.




Do you mean it's better because it creates uniform porosity by being uniformly porous (like many drywall primers) instead of creating a uniformly sealed surface? 

I think I get what your saying. Go into a fairly new house and paint over some builders flat. It's chalky as hell and soaks the moisture out of your material almost instantly. That might not be a bad thing if your going for the flattest of the flat. Sheen hold out is virtually nonexistent so your flat paint is at max flatness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PACman said:


> dust should be removed. gardz is a big overkill for a flat topcoat. That's all i am saying. And i really don't give a f*ck about what some painter with an agenda to prove says about drywall primers. I'll stick with what Sherwin Williams, PPG, Benjamin Moore, Duron, California, Pratt & Lambert, ZINSSER, and several other paint company chemists say before i sell Gardz for a drywall primer under a flat topcoat. WHY? BECAUSE OF WHAT JUST F*CKING HAPPENED TO THE OP, THAT'S WHY! IT CAN CAUSE FLASHING ISSUES WHEN USED UNDER A FLAT TOPCOAT!




By what mechanism do you suppose the flashing could happen? 

Could it possibly be that a uniformly sealed surface allows a smaller margin for application error as opposed to a porous drywall primer? 

I get why a lot of painters like painting over uniformly porous drywall, especially where hide is concerned. It's a lot easier to build a 4 mil film when 2 of those mil are immediately sucked into the surface. 

Application quirks aside, which surface would you think performs better in the long run. A totally sealed surface that maximizes the performance of the top coat, or a porous one? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gwarel (May 8, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> The benefits that I see are how well it seals the surface, provides maximum sheen hold out, and bonds well even in the presence of slight surface dust.
> 
> I haven't used the PPG 6-2, how do you think it would compete with Gardz in those categories?
> 
> ...


I've used the 6-2 and found it to be similar to my old go to standard Glidden product which is High Hide primer. Both work well for all the categories listed with one additional characteristic that I think is important for drywall primer and that is they sand smooth.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Whenever I reapplied it, it just made the whole thing shinier. It didnt even it out, like I hoped. It made it better, though.
> 
> Thats wasting time and material.



This is like new construction or new mud? Do yourself a favor and not use Guardz on that stuff. As you've learned already your wasting time and material, and money. 

As far as your shiny spots it sounds like you have build-out or tails in your spray, who knows. Can only really tell if I see either what your doing or the job. I've even seen some texture give off different spotting effects. But generally speaking it's the product/applicator.

If your spraying the primer on top of new mud, use either the PVA or my personal favorite the Hi-Build primers. If your not a Sherwin guy, then find another good quality drywall primer that is a cross over. 

Killz also makes a high build primer product which I've used (not a fan of it) but it works good and does the job right. None of this re-doing things business. 

Good luck and post some before/afters sometime.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Look. I gave Gardz a try, because 

A: I read a bunch of people raving about it on here, 

B: When I bid the job, the super (He's been replaced) talked about his other jobs had three coats of primer, and the first one was clear, and super waterproof. That sounded like he was talking about Gardz, to me. 

C: I told my paint rep about this plan, and he told me he'd sell me the the gardz for the same price as SW was selling their 'drywall conditioner' for (half the price, basically)

D: I had no idea it would flash the paint.

Once again, I like how it penetrates the texture and makes it waterproof, and no, I dont believe the other primers will do that. I also dont believe its that big a deal that they dont.... I've painted hundreds of houses without Gardz. Hell, I've painted a hundred houses without real primer at all....

All in all, its a lesson learned, I've got it handled, and it didnt cost me THAT much money to fix it...

On a side note, I just got my DVD course in hanging delicate wallcoverings, and the guy (Jim Parody) talked about sometimes mixing his gardz half and half with another acrylic primer to make it dry faster or something. Anyone ever heard of that?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

woodcoyote said:


> This is like new construction or new mud? Do yourself a favor and not use Guardz on that stuff. As you've learned already your wasting time and material, and money.
> 
> As far as your shiny spots it sounds like you have build-out or tails in your spray, who knows. Can only really tell if I see either what your doing or the job. I've even seen some texture give off different spotting effects. But generally speaking it's the product/applicator.
> 
> ...


Im convinced the streaks were from spray laps being too heavy. The tip wasnt tailing, I'll tell you that much. It was definitely my spraying. Gardz is REALLY thin, and really clear, so its hard to spray even. If I were to do it again, I'd ditch the 619 and go with a 513 and go a lot lighter. I see no reason for a high build primer. Its orange peel, with flat topcoats.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Rolling Gardz*



Woodco said:


> Look. I gave Gardz a try, because
> 
> A: I read a bunch of people raving about it on here,
> 
> ...


Woodco, if my memory serves me correctly, you are the only one I have read about here at PT that has sprayed Gardz instead of rolling it. When I paint flat, eggshell, satin or semi-gloss over over Gardz that I have rolled out as per directions (making sure it has an even sheen with no dull spots) I ALWAYS have gotten an even sheened finished product that does not flash. This holds true even on walls where floor to ceiling windows are line of sight at the other end of a wall - basically worst case scenario for seeing flashing.

If you base your experience of Gardz based only on spraying it and not rolling, then all you have done is tried Gardz spraying it. From your comments in post #39, it appears that you are thinking that spraying Gardz, at least how you did it, does not work. Why not try rolling the garage out with 2 coats of Gardz, then see how the paint goes over it? Don't base your opinion of Gardz on an application method that you, yourself, feel was not adequate. Gardz is a great tool, but if you walk away from it not knowing how to effectively use it, what is the point of ever even trying it?

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Unanswered questions*



PACman said:


> dust should be removed. gardz is a big overkill for a flat topcoat. That's all i am saying. And i really don't give a f*ck about what some painter with an agenda to prove says about drywall primers. I'll stick with what Sherwin Williams, PPG, Benjamin Moore, Duron, California, Pratt & Lambert, ZINSSER, and several other paint company chemists say before i sell Gardz for a drywall primer under a flat topcoat. WHY? BECAUSE OF WHAT JUST F*CKING HAPPENED TO THE OP, THAT'S WHY! IT CAN CAUSE FLASHING ISSUES WHEN USED UNDER A FLAT TOPCOAT!


PACman, if I have offended you in any way, could you forgive me? That being said, you did not appear to answer either of my questions which were.......

1. Can you name one drywall primer that will soak through residual dust and into the new drywall and make that dust a permanent part of the wall like Gardz does? As far as the residual dust I am talking about, let me quote from the link I posted thusly: 

"Was the surface clean? Did you remove all the drywall dust left behind from sanding? Did you shop vac the walls and the paint still didn’t stick? Did you try wiping down the drywall with a damp sponge? Yeah, so did we. Did the primer fail? Yeah, so did ours. Did you do something wrong?"

I have also experienced this, no matter how careful I am to remove all the dust. Some muds will always leave dust on your hand no matter how hard you try to remove it. With Gardz, the dust becomes a permanent and solid part of the wall. I even sanded a section of a wall I had skim coated so there was fresh dust on that area, then applied Gardz over the whole wall. The dusty section was just as sealed as the rest of the wall, which I had vacuumed thoroughly.

2. Is there a primer for new drywall that will pass a tape test as well as a sealer like Gardz that soaks into the drywall?

As far as the OP goes, he said in post #39 that he possibly applied the Gardz incorrectly. I asked him to try rolling it like probably most everyone here who has used it has done before he writes Gardz off.

As far as Gardz causing flashing under a flat topcoat, my experiencing ROLLING Gardz as directed (with an even sheen) has ALWAYS resulted in my getting a uniform, even sheen using flat (or any other sheen) paint, including ceiling paint. I have done this in hi rise condos with floor to ceiling windows on the outside wall that let in the worst light imaginable at certain times of the day. I am amazed at how well Gardz works every time I use it.

As far as what paint company chemists might say about Gardz being used under a flat paint, who should I trust, them or my lying eyes? From what I read here at PT from DeArch, Scotch Paint took a concrete sealer and packaged it as a drywall repair sealer called Draw-Tite that could also be used for other applications, that Zinsser wanted to buy it, Scotch would not sell it, so Zinsser paint chemists came up with Gardz.

I am not saying that Gardz is the most cost effective product to use, but in my opinion, it prepares new drywall for paint better than anything else I have used. As far as rolling paint over Gardz, it is about as good as it gets, at least for me. I would be curious to see what Woodco thinks if he decides to roll Gardz out instead of spraying, then paint.

Lastly, please don't think I am trying to antagonize you. I enjoy reading your posts and find your comments of value for the most part. If I could find a white, tintable primer that soaks in, seals and passes the tape test like Gardz, I would try it in a snap.

futtyos


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Look. I gave Gardz a try, because
> 
> A: I read a bunch of people raving about it on here,


To each his own, but take everything with a grain of salt. Chalk this up as a learning experience, maybe Gardz isn't your thing and this is the opportunity to find something that works for your company and situation(s). 



Woodco said:


> B: When I bid the job, the super (He's been replaced) talked about his other jobs had three coats of primer, and the first one was clear, and super waterproof. That sounded like he was talking about Gardz, to me.


Who knows why the super got replaced, but many I've seen that get replaced do so for a reason. Usually because they don't know much, waste material, labor, and money. From a professional painter's standpoint I'd be questioning why he needs 3 coats of primer. I mean seriously what is he trying to bullet proof or what went wrong that he had to apply 3 coats, especially to new drywall mud. Red flag #1.



Woodco said:


> C: I told my paint rep about this plan, and he told me he'd sell me the the gardz for the same price as SW was selling their 'drywall
> conditioner' for (half the price, basically)


Price wise it might be a good deal, who knows. But a paint rep doesn't always have your best interest in mind. Trust me, I know. I trust mine, but only with a short pole in between us, because after all he's chasing his bonus money for the year.



Woodco said:


> D: I had no idea it would flash the paint.


Like I said earlier, lesson learned. Least you know now so in the future you'll be able to readjust or decide when or when not to use Gardz.



Woodco said:


> Once again, I like how it penetrates the texture and makes it waterproof, and no, I dont believe the other primers will do that.


Gardz doesn't make anything water proof. It may make it less permeable to water and moisture resistant, but not water proof. In the construction trade there is a BIG difference in wording, so be careful how you sling the term waterproof around. 

And yes I did read the data page on the product and it doesn't mention anything about being waterproof or claim to be waterproof. 


Woodco said:


> I also dont believe its that big a deal that they dont.... I've painted hundreds of houses without Gardz. _Hell, I've painted a hundred houses without real primer at all.... _


_

:vs_shocked: lol. _But on a side note, I'm sure we've all skipped a couple of steps here and there and it hasn't killed us or broken us.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> I see no reason for a high build primer. Its orange peel, with flat topcoats.


Have you ever used a high-build primer? Just curious.

There are several advantages to using them. 

1.) Just because they are labeled as high build doesn't necessarily mean they have to be applied at super thick mil rates. Thickness of application is left up to the applicator. But what is nice about them is that if you need to have the added mils you can do so in a single application. Can't get the same mil rates out of PVA or other similar 'drywall' primers for starters. 

2.) From a business perspective the prices are fairly identical to PVA, at least my pricing is. So it doesn't make sense to have to utilize a ton of different drywall primers when I know 1 can do the job just fine. 

3.) If applied correctly the end result of the high build versus a PVA is that you achieve a much nicer finish. And no I'm not talking just about sheen, but overall appearance and feel. 

Here's a few caveats from the tech pages:


Covers a wide range of irregularities found in new construction interiors
 Ideal for minor drywall damage – filling scratches, sanding grooves, nicks and pinholes
Improves topcoat performance and produces a uniform, ready-to-finish wall surface


So long story short, that's why I recommend it to a lot of painters. I even got the local stores to drop Wasatch in lieu of High Build and the cost is only $1 more per gallon, but with a ton more added benefits. 



Rant over. Give it a shot sometime when you get the chance, see how you like it or don't like it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

woodcoyote said:


> To each his own, but take everything with a grain of salt. Chalk this up as a learning experience, maybe Gardz isn't your thing and this is the opportunity to find something that works for your company and situation(s).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, you're not telling me anything I dont already know, or havent learned last week. 

And yes, I painted tracts for a while. We used Kelly Moore 550 flat, and sprayed one good heavy coat (no backrolling either) on everything. Then got into the 1650 semigloss and shot the wet rooms, using the 550 as a primer. We'd also use the same 550 to prime the trim for sanding before the 1650 as well. The whole system worked very well, and it looked good, considering... and it touched up great. And, I learned how to paint houses VERY efficiently. A few tweaks, and I turned that system into a high quality system, that is still very efficient (when Im not screwing up the sheen with gardz, anyway...)


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Screwing up?*



Woodco said:


> You know, you're not telling me anything I dont already know, or havent learned last week.
> 
> And yes, I painted tracts for a while. We used Kelly Moore 550 flat, and sprayed one good heavy coat (no backrolling either) on everything. Then got into the 1650 semigloss and shot the wet rooms, using the 550 as a primer. We'd also use the same 550 to prime the trim for sanding before the 1650 as well. The whole system worked very well, and it looked good, considering... and it touched up great. And, I learned how to paint houses VERY efficiently. A few tweaks, and I turned that system into a high quality system, that is still very efficient (when Im not screwing up the sheen with gardz, anyway...)


Woodco, as I have said about most everyone here at PT, you have far more experience than I do with painting. From what you have said about using Gardz, I have much more experience than you in using it as I have used it for the last 3 or so years for all kinds of problems.

I realize that using Gardz might not be economically feasable for you to use in the manner that you are intending it for, but if you don't find out how to properly use it, I know, at least in my own parallell painting universe, that you may be passing over a very effective painting tool.

I have very effectively used Gardz for several years now for a number of applications. When i read how you say you have "tried" using Gardz, I can only think that you have not. Best wishes.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

If it works for you, great. To be honest though, I dont understand why you have a problem painting without it. I have NEVER had a sheen problem while rolling paint, even if its cheap paint. There's been a couple times where the texture was horrible, and made the paint look like ****, but I point that right back at the texture guys, collect my check and walk away. 

But usually, Even if I roll garbage paint on garbage texture, I still make it look badass with two coats, and I get compliments. 

Maybe you need to examine about your application techniques, if you feel like you need Gardz to make it look right. I have never had a problem with interior paint (except Sherwin's infamous hatbanding) and I have NEVER noticed a big difference between two coats of garbage eggshell, and five coats of super premium $80 a gallon rip off. 

Hell, just today, I bought four gallons of Valpsar 2000, $20 a gallon garbage, because I didnt have time to get it matched to PPG, and PPG didnt have their color deck when I called. So, instead of driving the color chip to PPG, and waiting for them to match it, i got the cheap paint from Lowes, and guess what? It covered REALLY great, and looked awesome, and I couldnt scrape any drips off of the old ass oil trim paint, so it obviously stuck really well too. 

I challenge anyone here to show me a video of a wall using super high end primers and paints, compared to a wall of medium/lower end paints, with a noticable difference. THEY DONT EXIST. they may be more washable, and a little more durable, but thats it. Its like wine. Its a label that people look at .

I'll tell you what. I have an unpainted garage in this house. I'll do one wall with two coats of gardz, one with PVA and the other ones with no primer at all, just backrolled Mopako, and I'll take pics, and post them, and we'll see if anyone can spot a difference.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Will you roll the Gardz?*



Woodco said:


> If it works for you, great. To be honest though, I dont understand why you have a problem painting without it. I have NEVER had a sheen problem while rolling paint, even if its cheap paint. There's been a couple times where the texture was horrible, and made the paint look like ****, but I point that right back at the texture guys, collect my check and walk away.
> 
> But usually, Even if I roll garbage paint on garbage texture, I still make it look badass with two coats, and I get compliments.
> 
> ...


Woodco, I am not questioning your abilities as a painting contractor nor your experiences using products that have worked for you. What I am really curious about is the difference between rolling and spraying Gardz. I would also be curious to see what a tape test will show on the Gardz wall, the PVA wall and the Mopako wall. 

I appreciate your posts here about what you are doing.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PACman said:


> Gardz on texture. There is no benefit over just a good drywall primer. (PPG 6-2 for example)


Back in the 1980's when architects finally figured it out and started specking eggshell finish coats for high rise offices, I worked for Bobbe & Co. one of the largest PC's in the Chicago area! The only primer we used was PPG 6-2 which at that time was listed as a PVA. We were painting new tenant spaces in downtown highrises, many of these were 10 floors or more.
Do you think we had the time to dust or vacuum the new sheetrock before priming? Hell no! Priming millions of squares of rock we never had any problems with 6-2.
Point of fact is that Bobbe used to buy it by the truckload and keep it in their shop (warehouse).
The only time we ran into problems was when the tapers were using the USG yellow mud that came in a plastic bag in a cardboard box, and then proceeded to piss the 5hit out of it with water to make it flow easier out of the bazookas and boxes! When this happened any primer acted like a taping mud remover.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*USG yellow mud!*



Brushman4 said:


> Back in the 1980's when architects finally figured it out and started specking eggshell finish coats for high rise offices, I worked for Bobbe & Co. one of the largest PC's in the Chicago area! The only primer we used was PPG 6-2 which at that time was listed as a PVA. We were painting new tenant spaces in downtown highrises, many of these were 10 floors or more.
> Do you think we had the time to dust or vacuum the new sheetrock before priming? Hell no! Priming millions of squares of rock we never had any problems with 6-2.
> Point of fact is that Bobbe used to buy it by the truckload and keep it in their shop (warehouse).
> The only time we ran into problems was when the tapers were using the USG yellow mud that came in a plastic bag in a cardboard box, and then proceeded to piss the 5hit out of it with water to make it flow easier out of the bazookas and boxes! When this happened any primer acted like a taping mud remover.


The USG yellow mud you speak of is what my GC uses on the Marina Tower condos he has me paint. I can almost put a dent in if I look at it too long! I can sand this stuff with my bare hand. This is one reason I am such a fan of Gardz as it seals and solidifies the surface of this yellow stuff. The Gardz just soaks into it and doesn't lift it. Painting over this is then a breeze.

The GC used to use Kilz 2 over this yellow cr_p. I convinced him to upgrade to Zinsser 123. It does seem to work better, but definitely does not pass the tape test, even with yellow Frog tape. Perhaps this is one reason I am so stuck on Gardz.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

When are you performing these tape tests? The only time I've ever seen tape pull paint off of walls is if they were less than 24 hours old. Even using just KM 550 on raw texture and wood, there has never been any adhesion problems whatsoever. Try a tape test after three weeks of cure time. I dont know of anything that WONT pass after that much cure time.

It kind of sounds liek you're taking responsibility for a crap tape and float job to me...

Hell, about 15 years ago, I did apartment repaints in Vegas for a few months. I would come into a an apartment, sheild everything and spray the cheapest garbage paint known to man on the walls. THAT didnt even have any adhesion problems. I used $6 a gallon paint on these walls too. I think the trim paint was $9 a gallon. You couldnt scrape it with your fingernail, though. Two hours to repaint a unit. I learned how to be sharpshooter doing that! 

My point it, I truly believe you are WAY overkilling your wall philosophy. What problems have you encountered rolling walls? I dont understand. Also, what reason is there for a legitimate 'tape test' on a wall? Am I missing something?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Holy crap! This turned epic. Must read.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Yellow Frog tape test*



Woodco said:


> When are you performing these tape tests? The only time I've ever seen tape pull paint off of walls is if they were less than 24 hours old. Even using just KM 550 on raw texture and wood, there has never been any adhesion problems whatsoever. Try a tape test after three weeks of cure time. I dont know of anything that WONT pass after that much cure time.
> 
> Hell, about 15 years ago, I did apartment repaints in Vegas for a few months. I would come into a an apartment, sheild everything and spray the cheapest garbage paint known to man on the walls. THAT didnt even have any adhesion problems. I used $6 a gallon paint on these walls too. I think the trim paint was $9 a gallon. You couldnt scrape it with your fingernail, though. Two hours to repaint a unit. I learned how to be sharpshooter doing that!
> 
> My point it, I truly believe you are WAY overkilling your wall philosophy. What problems have you encountered rolling walls? I dont understand. Also, what reason is there for a legitimate 'tape test' on a wall? Am I missing something?


Here is an experience I have had with a tape test. 

The GC I paint hi rise condos for skimmed and sanded some bathroom walls in a unit with the USG yellow mud Brushman4 mentioned in post #48. The GC then primed the skimmed areas with Zinsser 123 before I had a chance to apply Gardz onto the very, very soft yellow mud. This was done about the last week of February this year.

Around 3/7/17 I painted the bathroom walls with Regal Select flat.

After the main job was done, I worked directly for the HO refurbishing and painting a rather large built-in metal medicine cabinet in the bathroom. I started painting the cabinet frame on 4/7/17. I went to tape the wall next to the frame with yellow Frog tape. I didn't position the tape correctly and when I gently pulled it off it took the paint and primer off down to the USG yellow mud. 

If you know of a primer that will soak into and seal that USG yellow mud so that it can be taped, I would be interested to know. 

A tape test will give you an idea of how well a primer, a paint, or primer and paint are adhering to a surface, be it NC drywall, skim coat or whatever.

Primers are thicker than a sealer like Gardz and do not soak into the surface like Gardz does. If you have a dust problem on a surface such as with the USG yellow mud (which CANNOT be made to be dust free. Your hand will always have dust on it no matter how well you try to remove the dust first.) the only product I have found to seal the dust in is Gardz or a similar product.

As I mentioned before, Gardz started out as a concrete sealer that Scoth Paint in CA packaged as a product to repair damaged drywall. When I first used it, I was reminded of acrylic floor finish and sealer from my days of doing floor work. Gardz looked like floor sealer, smelled like floor sealer, went on like floor sealer and dried like floor sealer.

Floor sealer and floor finish look and smell the same, but are a bit different. I discovered this by trying to apply floor finish to a newly stripped, very old and porous floor. 3 coats later and no shine, I went to my janitorial supply house. The owner explained that i needed to use a sealer first. I stripped the floor again, put 2 coats of sealer on (the floor drank it up like the desert) and when I put my floor finish on it started to shine like crazy. The sealer also made applying the finish much, much easier as little of the finish was soaking into the floor; it was laying on top instead, where I wanted it to lay.

I have not found a primer that seals new drywall of skim coating like Gardz does. Gardz, being clear when dried, may not give you a jump on coverage, but rare is the time that I don't paint 2 coats of paint. Most good paints should cover adequately with 2 coats. The paint lays on top of the Gardz and the water in Gardz does not absorb into the surface. This means that the paint stays on top of the surface and dries slowly, giving you a wet edge to get uniform coverage. This may not be a factor when spraying, but I don't spray.

My experience with cutting and rolling over Gardz is that it makes both so much easier and pleasant to do. I do not find myself fighting to get the paint on like I do over some primers.

I am not saying that there aren't primers out there that are not great to roll paint over, but i highly doubt that any of those primers would grip the surface there are applied to like Gardz does as Gardz actually soaks into the surface almost like water. Primers just can't do that as well as a sealer that soaks in. If you know of one that does, let me know.

If I did more NC and production work I might change what i use, but I seem to do mostly repaints and repairs. Gardz gives me cheap insurance and helps me avoid science experiments, too many of which I have done in my day. With 2 coats of Gardz on a ceiling or wall that has blinding light coming in from windows that shows every imperfection in the wall and paint sheen, I know that I can get an even coat and sheen from flat thru semi-gloss with no worries.

Woodco, I am not trying to get you to change how you do things. I am only suggesting that you roll 2 coats of Gardz on a wall instead of spraying to see what kind of a surface it will produce for painting over. I think it is good to know how to use Gardz (or any other product) successfully so that when you do find the situation where you need something that works, you will have confidence in using it rather than thinking it was a bust.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Ok. I gotchya. I use gardz on the regular, as a wallpaper primer. Im familiar with it. If I ever see this yellow mud you're talking about I'll have a talk with the GC or whoever and explain my concerns, and he'll either sign a waiver for regular primer, (or even thin the primer a little) or pay me to roll two coats of gardz. Im still gonna experiment in this garage, but Im never putting it on raw texture as a primer again.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This has gotten way too complicated. Let's go back to the basics, as pointed out by several members.

*1*. Flat finish is typically used on textured surfaces unless otherwise specified. It can be applied as a self priming material, or over a drywall primer like PVA sealer.

*2*. Flat paint is susceptible to shiny streaks, spots, and other light refraction anomollies if a build up of a high resin/binder and or sealer is used as a primer, i.e. Guardz, Zinnser 123, etc.

*3*. High resin primers like Guardz and 123, are fantastic for finish coat sheen holdout. i.e. Eggshell, Semi Gloss, and Gloss, if multiple coats of the finish are not elected.

*4*. The traditional PVA (poly vying acetate) sealer has been the standard for bare drywall because of its binder compatibly with that of joint compound. Residual dust from sanded Joint compound is easily absorbed in PVA sealer. 

*5*. PVA sealer is not intended to "even" a surface for a consistent finish coat appearance. Other primers have been developed to support consistent sheen.

*6*. On bare substrates, it is typically recommended to only apply one coat of primer followed by multiple coats (as necessary) of the "finish" product to achieve appearance and performance goals.

*7*. Multiple primer coats are typically only necessary to seal in stains, (when using a waterborne stain killer) and or provide an "intermediate" protective barrier for corrosion control. The intermediate primer application is often a separate product from both the direct to substrate primer, and the finish coat.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Rolling vs spraying Gardz*



Woodco said:


> Ok. I gotchya. I use gardz on the regular, as a wallpaper primer. Im familiar with it. If I ever see this yellow mud you're talking about I'll have a talk with the GC or whoever and explain my concerns, and he'll either sign a waiver for regular primer, (or even thin the primer a little) or pay me to roll two coats of gardz. Im still gonna experiment in this garage, but Im never putting it on raw texture as a primer again.


My sister in Branson MO has a double wide trailor. The ceilings are all textured. I didn't realiz that they were also unsealed, unprimed or unpainted until she got her roof torn off for a new roof. The contractor neglected to tarp the bare roof before leaving for the day. I rained heavy that night. When all the dust settled, she had dark water stains in almost every room.

Last fall I visited. I taped off everything, then double coated the water stains with BIN. I was leery of putting any primer or paint on the bare texture as I have melted texture before doing this. I rolled on 2 good coats of Gard with a 1/2" Whizz Microlon 9" roller cover, then double coated it with behr PPU Ceiling paint. It came out perfect!

I love rolling the Behr ceiling paint, but it is too shiny for ceilings that will get reflective light from outside. It sure washes up well. I did a double coated another ceiling with it, then started to paint the crown molding blood red. After brushing out about 5 feet of molding, I noticed that I had splattered red paint on the ceiling I had just finished rolling out about an hour before. I figured I would have to touch it up. I got a wet paper towel to get rid of the majority of the red paint. It all came off with no staining or penetration!

Bottom line for me is I would not hesitate to seal a textured surface by ROLLING out a couple coats of Gardz. After hearing about your experience spraying Gardz on texture, I would take a pass on ever trying to do that.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*flat paint on well lit walls and ceilings*



CApainter said:


> This has gotten way too complicated. Let's go back to the basics, as pointed out by several members.
> 
> *1*. Flat finish is typically used on textured surfaces unless otherwise specified. It can be applied as a self priming material, or over a drywall primer like PVA sealer.
> 
> ...


2. When I want an even coat of flat paint on a wall that has lighting that will show flashing, I know that 2 coats of Gardz will guarantee an even sheen. It works like a charm for me, no question.

3. I just did a bathroom with 2 coats of semi-gloss over 2 coats of Gardz (3 coats over a completley skim-coated wall) and it came out perfect. The first coat almost completely covered, 2nd coat cinched it.

4. I would bet that Gardz does a better job of sealing in residual dust as well as giving a better foundation for topcoats that any PVA primer.

5. I specifically use Gardz to not only seal surfaces, but to make them even so that the topcoat of paint will have an even sheen. That's one of the main reasons I use Gardz. When I put 2 coats of Gardz over new drywall and mud, the sheen of the topcoat of paint is even over both surfaces.

6. I find that applying Gardz as directed (from the TDS: "Properly sealed surfaces should have a uniform sheen. Reapply to areas that have been missed or lack sufficient coating.") works so well for me that I am reluctant to try anything else. 

7. I was under the impression that a primer was a coating that would strongly ahdere to a surface and give the topcoat of paint something to grip onto better than just painting directly on the surface itself and that one of the reasons for using a "sealer" is to "seal" in stains so that they don't bleed through into the paint. I have not tried using Gardz as a sealer for stains as of yet, but I should try that.

The basics you have mentioned above may work well for some here, but there are more ways to lead a cat to water, or some such thing.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As mentioned earlier, Gardz is overkill for some of the applications you've mentioned, and actually not recommended for others. For example, if a decorator is looking for the least amount of sheen from a flat paint as possible, the last thing you want to do is apply a high resin primer.

Secondly, primers, sealers, binders, etc. are not intended to bond to themselves, albeit they can, but rather bond specifically to their designed target substrate.

And lastly, although Gardz is a fantastic primer for its intended design, including it's subsequent properties for creating a hardened surface, exploiting it beyond its intended use, albeit successful for many situations, is merely garage science without enough objective evidence to support a warranty.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Why would I use what? Dont leave me hangin.
> 
> PPG? They give me great prices and customer service.
> 
> ...


 0 for 4.... GARDZ!


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> The USG yellow mud you speak of is what my GC uses on the Marina Tower condos he has me paint. I can almost put a dent in if I look at it too long! I can sand this stuff with my bare hand. This is one reason I am such a fan of Gardz as it seals and solidifies the surface of this yellow stuff. The Gardz just soaks into it and doesn't lift it. Painting over this is then a breeze.
> 
> The GC used to use Kilz 2 over this yellow cr_p. I convinced him to upgrade to Zinsser 123. It does seem to work better, but definitely does not pass the tape test, even with yellow Frog tape. Perhaps this is one reason I am so stuck on Gardz.
> 
> futtyos


Why don't you convince him to step up to better quality mud? What is his reason for using it, because it's cheaper?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha*



Brushman4 said:


> Why don't you convince him to step up to better quality mud? What is his reason for using it, because it's cheaper?


That was funny, Brushman4! He likes to use it because he does tons of skim coating with Easy Sand 20 on every job and wants something easier to sand for the final coat. The yellow stuff is what he has settled on. He says it also helps him see where he has spackled the final coat.

He has been doing this type of work for 17 years at the twin condo buildings he works exclusively at and feels like he knows best. It was like pulling teeth to get him to switch from Kilz 2 to 123.

Having said that, he does do very good work. I don't want to push him too hard. I will just try to sneak on a coat of Gardz over the yellow chit after he leaves at 5 and I stay til 7.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> That was funny, Brushman4! He likes to use it because he does tons of skim coating with Easy Sand 20 on every job and wants something easier to sand for the final coat. The yellow stuff is what he has settled on. He says it also helps him see where he has spackled the final coat.
> 
> He has been doing this type of work for 17 years at the twin condo buildings he works exclusively at and feels like he knows best. It was like pulling teeth to get him to switch from Kilz 2 to 123.
> 
> ...


The yellow mud is real easy to apply and sand maybe to easy as evidenced by the mounds of dust it leaves after sanding. We know how soft it is but it gets even softer when tapers mix way too much water into, to make it easier to apply with their Ames tools. https://www.amestools.com/


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?


This stuff: http://www.homedepot.com/p/SHEETROC...-Pre-Mixed-Joint-Compound-383645064/202329668

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> This stuff: http://www.homedepot.com/p/SHEETROC...-Pre-Mixed-Joint-Compound-383645064/202329668
> 
> futtyos


From the Plus 3 TDS


Drywall Primer: A priming material applied over the entire prepared gypsum panel surface prior to decoration. The priming material must be suitable for the substrate and applied as recommended by the coating manufacturer. *Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.
*
A prime coat of USG Sheetrock® Brand First CoatTM Primer or a good quality interior latex flat wall paint with a high pigment solids content should be applied undiluted and allowed to dry before decoration. Walls to be covered with wallpaper or vinyl wallcovering should have the surface treated per the wallcovering manufacturer’s recommendation.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Directions or advice?*



CApainter said:


> From the Plus 3 TDS
> 
> 
> Drywall Primer: A priming material applied over the entire prepared gypsum panel surface prior to decoration. The priming material must be suitable for the substrate and applied as recommended by the coating manufacturer. *Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.
> ...


It appears that the quotes above can be found in this link:

https://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG...ll-purpose-joint-compound-submittal-J498A.pdf

Here is the Gardz TDS: https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

It would appear from the following from the Gardz TDS that Gardz is suitable for the substrate applied as recommended by Zinsser:

NEW DRYWALL/JOINT COMPOUND AND SPACKLING
GARDZ penetrates and uniformly seals, creating a
moisture resistant film that protects drywall from blistering,
tearing and other damage when re-decorating in the
future.

The 3rd sentence in the first paragraph of you above post ("Where final appearance is critical, the application of a flat drywall primer with high pigment solids tends to minimize most decorating problems.") appears to be advice rather than strictly direction. I have repeatedly found that applying Gardz as directed gives me a surface superior to any primer I have used for getting an even topcoat of paint, even for flat paint.

You do make a point as regards getting a super flat finish in your post #57 where you say "For example, if a decorator is looking for the least amount of sheen from a flat paint as possible, the last thing you want to do is apply a high resin primer." While I have always been able to get a uniform finish and sheen with flat paint over Gardz, I have not run into the situation you mention regarding a decorator wanting as little sheen from a flat paint as possible, I will have to keep that in mind if it comes up. I realize that you do far more work than I do and far more work with decorators as well and I appreciate that heads up.

All that being said, I do not find anything in the USG Plus3 TDS that isn't covered by or is incompatible with what is said in the Gardz TDS regarding Gardz' application over bare drywall and joint compounds of any type. In addition, USG Plus3 joint compound is extremely soft (I can sand it with my hand) and I highly doubt that any drywall primer or paint is going to soak into the compound and harden like Gardz or a similar product (Draw-Tite comes to mind) in a manner which helps minimize accidental dings and dents.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, the GC I paint condos for likes to use USG Plus 3 Tinted for his last coat of mud over a skim coat of Easy Sand 20 and just wants me to prime with Zinsser 123 (I convinced him to switch to that from Kilz2) so he can go around with a light and catch all the mistakes he missed, which are then hit with another coat of 123, then painted. I try to Gardz the Plus3 first if I can, but he finished a bathroom with Plus3, then primed it himself with 123. I painted over this about a week or 2 later with BM Regal Select white. Over a month later, I was painting a built-in medicine cabinet. I started to put yellow Freg tape on the wall next to the cabinet. I mispositioned the tape and when I pulled off a 5" section, it took the paint and primer down to the Plus3. That is not what I would call a good thing.

A week ago I finished painting a nasty bathroom at an auto body shop. I had put 3 coats of Gardz on most of the areas I had spackled and 4 on one whole wall I had torn all the top layer of plaster off of and remudded with Durabond and Easy Sand, then 2 coats of semi-gloss over that. I was on the phone today with the friend who got me to do this bathroom and he was at the shop. I asked him to get some real sticky tape and see if he could pull any paint off after being there for a week. He is an HVAC contractor, so he got some Polyken 339 duct tape and stuck it on an area where a new vanity will be going. Nothing came off.

I looked up your post on tape tests and realized that I will need to go back and try the tape test you mentioned here a few years ago ( http://events.nace.org/education/inspectthis/tech_art/spring_04/Tale.asp ) and see how it works doing that.

One last question: have you ever painted NC over new drywall and joint compound sealed with gardz as directed by the TDS, and if so, did you roll or spray and how did the finished product turn out?

I am not trying to be a jerk about Gardz. I just would find it interesting if those here who do try it do so according to the directions on the TDS. If it doesn't work, fine, but if it is not applied correctly, I do feel free to point out that this or that person who used it might try it again doing it according to the TDS.

I am coming to the conclusion that parallel universes might be existing all around us and that while we may be able to discuss things in common, our own individual experiences with these produts and processes might be being had in different, but parallel situations. I read all kinds of bad stuff here about Behr paint and I just can't relate to most of it because my experience is mostly good using Behr. In fact, I would have to think hard to remember when Behr didn't work well for me. I like doing repair/repaint jobs where i use the Paint people already have for touching up because i get to try out paint I normally would not think of using.

I have to go now, they are locking me in my room for the night.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos,

I was just referring to the primer recommendation over the Plus 3. As far as using Gardz as a new drywall primer, yes. And it worked excellent as a base for the Regal Pearl finish.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Plus 3, not for me*



CApainter said:


> futtyos,
> 
> I was just referring to the primer recommendation over the Plus 3. As far as using Gardz as a new drywall primer, yes. And it worked excellent as a base for the Regal Pearl finish.


I am not as familiar as probably most here are with the various types of joint compounds and such. I hate the Plus 3, but that is what the boss uses. I like a nice solid surface, at least for walls.

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Is the yellow mud you're referring to, topping compound?


Yes, but the problems lies in the fact that many tapers, piss the 5hit out of it with water, way beyond what USG recommends, only to make it easier to move through their equipment.
That's why in many high-rises you'll see cracks in seams. Some tapers even go to the extreme to use topping to embed the tape, which is a big no-no, because it lacks the adhesive properties of regular joint compound!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Brushman4 said:


> Yes, but the problems lies in the fact that many tapers, piss the 5hit out of it with water, way beyond what USG recommends, only to make it easier to move through their equipment.
> That's why in many high-rises you'll see cracks in seams. Some tapers even go to the extreme to use topping to embed the tape, which is a big no-no, because it lacks the adhesive properties of regular joint compound!


Apparently, the USG Plus 3 yellow mud futtyo's boss is using, can also be applied to embed tape as well as a topping. I've never used it before, but I agree with you that topping is not intended for embedding tape.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Embedding tape*



CApainter said:


> Apparently, the USG Plus 3 yellow mud futtyo's boss is using, can also be applied to embed tape as well as a topping. I've never used it before, but I agree with you that topping is not intended for embedding tape.


My boss uses Easy Sand 20 to embed tape and for all coats except the last, which he uses Plus 3 for. I try to use Durabond when I embed tape. While doing bunches of skim coating at the condos I paint for this GC, I have had the opportunity to drop globs of both Easy Sand and Durabond onto the concrete floor (before the new floor is installed). After hardening, the Easy Sand comes up pretty easily with a putty knife. The Durabond needs a hammer and chisel combo. I guess that is why they called it Durabond!

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> My boss uses Easy Sand 20 to embed tape and for all coats except the last, which he uses Plus 3 for. I try to use Durabond when I embed tape. While doing bunches of skim coating at the condos I paint for this GC, I have had the opportunity to drop globs of both Easy Sand and Durabond onto the concrete floor (before the new floor is installed). After hardening, the Easy Sand comes up pretty easily with a putty knife. The Durabond needs a hammer and chisel combo. I guess that is why they called it Durabond!
> 
> futtyos


I like your idea of hardening the surface of the weak Plus 3 finish with the Gardz. I would probably do the same thing. 

If it fit into the budget, and I was applying anything that will have a shiny finish, I would definitely consider Gardz. However, I would never apply it beyond it's recommended WFT. And I would likely continue to roll it on, or at least back roll if I used an airless cautiously.

The TDS recommends 1 mil DFT. Not a very thick film, however, it does say you can coat over


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*TDS and real world applications*



CApainter said:


> I like your idea of hardening the surface of the weak Plus 3 finish with the Gardz. I would probably do the same thing.
> 
> If it fit into the budget, and I was applying anything that will have a shiny finish, I would definitely consider Gardz. However, I would never apply it beyond it's recommended WFT. And I would likely continue to roll it on, or at least back roll if I used an airless cautiously.
> 
> The TDS recommends 1 mil DFT. Not a very thick film, however, it does say you can coat over


CApainter, you do seem to like to go by the book and I appreciate your bringing technical details into the discussion. I am not quite sure how paint companies arrive at the specs that they do, but I do know how I end up using the product. Here is the TDS for Gardz if anyone wants to refer to it:

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/D...GDZ-01_GARDZ_High_Performance_Sealer_TDS.ashx

When I roll oput a first coat of Gardz, I let the surface I am rolling it on dictate how much to apply. On the first large skim coated over textured ceiling I did (24 x 15) I started out with a 3/8" nap roller cover. Seeing how the material was being sucked up like water on a wet sponge in the desert, I looked aournd and found a 3/4" nap roller and switched to that, applying as much Gardz as I could until I could "feel" that I could not get any more to penetrate without it starting to become messy. The 2nd coat over this went at least twice as fast and used probably half or less the amount of material usede on the first coat. The 508 I put on top of the Gardz came out perfect. As far as 1 mil DFT, that is what is recommended per coat. Since I usually do a slightly lighter 2nd coat, I would guess I am getting somewhere less than 2 mils DFT as I really don't find it easy to apply as much material as in the first coat.

As far as using Gardz under flat, I had a long wall to paint in the first condo I did for the GC I have mentioned. I primed and painted it as per his direction 2 or 3 times, each time with the GC finding mistakes to correct. He got frustrated with my not being able to get an even coat with the Behr PP that he normally uses on his jobs. It was Friday. I told him I would take care of it over the weekend.

After he left, I rolled out 2 coats of Gardz and went home. Came back the next day and rolled out 2 coats of the flat. It came out perfect. This was a wall that went from a doorway next to floor to ceiling windows in about 15 feet to a bathroom doorway with a pocket door that slid away from the wall I have described. When you stand inside the bathroom and look out, you are standing right next to the wall. When the sun is shining into the windows, you have the worst light for showing imperfections. On Monday, the only complaint the GC had was with his own repairs before I took over. Otherwise, he was very happy with the uniformity of the sheen. All that being said, I only applied Gardz to that one wall in that bedroom. None of the other walls got any light that would let you easily see any imperfections, so those only got 123 and then paint and they looked fine.

Mind you, this was using Behr Premium Plus flat. This flat does have a slight sheen to it that probably is accentuated by going over the Gardz. I have a feeling that most flat paints today have more sheen to them than the flat paints of years ago. If I do end up getting a request for a dead flat finish, I will have to take into consideration whether to use Gardz underneath or something else. What primer would you recommend for under a dead flat? The 123 dries almost to a satin finish.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Draw-Tite demonstration*

Since we are on the subject of Gardz/clear sealers, I thought I might share this 4-video playlist of a Draw-Tite demonstration from 2014. Scotch Paints make a white pigmented sealer in addition to its clear, but the gentleman doing the demonstration seemed to feel that the clear sealed better than the white:






I was hoping that the white would work as well because it is really nice to seal drywall, but it is really nice to get a coat of white on as well so you can point up easier using a bright light to find the mistakes. Perhaps the white Draw-Tite would be good enough for my purposes. I just don't like having stuff shipped, I'd rather go to the store and buy stuff in person, but I may try this white version of Draw-Tite and see how well it works for the above purposes.

futtyos


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Paint coming off on roller cover*



Jmayspaint said:


> Do you mean it's better because it creates uniform porosity by being uniformly porous (like many drywall primers) instead of creating a uniformly sealed surface?
> 
> I think I get what your saying. Go into a fairly new house and paint over some builders flat. It's chalky as hell and soaks the moisture out of your material almost instantly. That might not be a bad thing if your going for the flattest of the flat. Sheen hold out is virtually nonexistent so your flat paint is at max flatness.
> 
> ...


Jmayspaint, I was looking for a comment about the sandability of Gardz and saw your post about builders flat. Have you ever started to roll new paint over a cheap builders paint and find that the builders paint begins to come off onto the roller cover after it has become wet from the new paint? That is another reason to use Gardz when going over a questionable surface. Gardz can soak into the old paint and help glue it to the substraight so that the new paint does not pull the old paint off.

Gardz can also go through cheap primer. I had several new preprimed doors to paint and thought I would try putting on some Gardz first. Normally, when applying Gardz to a porous surface, the area where the clear Gardz goes on will appear darker, just like water will darken an area that is porous. If Gardz is applied to a sealed surface, there usually will be no color change. When I rolled Gardz onto the preprimed doors, it soaked right through the primer and darkened the surface. I suppose some primers might also penetrate the old primer, but I would not be able to tell by seeing it darken the surface like Gardz because Gardz is clear.

Just some observations.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

futtyos said:


> ... If I do end up getting a request for a dead flat finish, I will have to take into consideration whether to use Gardz underneath or something else. What primer would you recommend for under a dead flat? The 123 dries almost to a satin finish.
> 
> futtyos


Sorry for the late response. I thought I had sent a reply some time ago. Apparently it didn't go through. 

I still like PVA sealer. It doesn't have much of a sheen at all. But most flats these days are self priming. If I wanted a very good sealer and undercoater for the flat, and it was in the budget, I like the Zinsser Drywall Primer.


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## liz2122 (Dec 26, 2019)

I realize this is an old thread. I’m a big fan of Gardz. Also tried the Draw Tite clear but not the Draw Tite White. I have a large house with several skim coats over flat paint/texture. This was applied years ago by a drywall crew that applied various mud brands, various thicknesses and some patching that dried very hard. They pretty much ruined my house. Then I hired another guy who said he could fix it and proceeded to sand with 150 grit sandpaper and just made the damage worse! To fix the issues now is almost impossible, Skim coating the problem areas will only show as patches...it’s very hard to feather out edges of patches on chalky already applied skim coats. I want to seal up the whole house with Gardz (probably two coats). But then I’m interested in applying a high build drywall primer like Freeman 555 or Sherwin Williams High Build. These primers can level out some imperfections and of course will dry white and perhaps give us a good starting point for patching. Then a second coat of the white high build can be applied. My concern is adhesion to the Guardz. Yes I’ve asked the manufacturers. No one really knows for certain. I know I can experiment with a wall and perhaps do a tape test but I really don’t want to wait weeks or months to see if this primer falls off the Gardz. Gardz is pretty slick. I know regular printer and paint will stick. Has anyone applied a high build primer such as SW, Freeman 555 or even USG’s First Coat over Gardz or even Draw Tite?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Welcome to Paint Talk*



liz2122 said:


> I realize this is an old thread. I’m a big fan of Gardz. Also tried the Draw Tite clear but not the Draw Tite White. I have a large house with several skim coats over flat paint/texture. This was applied years ago by a drywall crew that applied various mud brands, various thicknesses and some patching that dried very hard. They pretty much ruined my house. Then I hired another guy who said he could fix it and proceeded to sand with 150 grit sandpaper and just made the damage worse! To fix the issues now is almost impossible, Skim coating the problem areas will only show as patches...it’s very hard to feather out edges of patches on chalky already applied skim coats. I want to seal up the whole house with Gardz (probably two coats). But then I’m interested in applying a high build drywall primer like Freeman 555 or Sherwin Williams High Build. These primers can level out some imperfections and of course will dry white and perhaps give us a good starting point for patching. Then a second coat of the white high build can be applied. My concern is adhesion to the Guardz. Yes I’ve asked the manufacturers. No one really knows for certain. I know I can experiment with a wall and perhaps do a tape test but I really don’t want to wait weeks or months to see if this primer falls off the Gardz. Gardz is pretty slick. I know regular printer and paint will stick. Has anyone applied a high build primer such as SW, Freeman 555 or even USG’s First Coat over Gardz or even Draw Tite?


Liz2122, welcome to Paint Talk. Please forgive me, but even though you have mentioned several paint trade products and applications, you sound like you might not be a painter or be involved in a paint related trade as is required for admission into this group. You might find your self being redirected by the moderators to the sister site DIY Chatroom for further help.

Until that happens, I must say that I am somewhat confused as to exactly what your problem is and what you are wanting to do to correct it. Rather than ask you a bunch of questions, can you post some photos of what you are talking about? Also, you have some "unintelligeably" spelled words in your post. Can you make sure that if you post anything further here in Paint Talk or DIY Chatroom that you first Preview your post to make sure that it is understandable?

Thanks,

futtyos


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

futtyos said:


> Liz2122, welcome to Paint Talk. Please forgive me, but even though you have mentioned several paint trade products and applications, you sound like you might not be a painter or be involved in a paint related trade as is required for admission into this group. You might find your self being redirected by the moderators to the sister site DIY Chatroom for further help.
> 
> Thanks,
> futtyos


We shouldn't be encouraging the DIYers here. They might send their friends along.:wink:


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## liz2122 (Dec 26, 2019)

Gotcha. Not sure why all of the typos in my post -- they weren't there when I hit "send". No, not a professional painter, but I sure have educated my community of painters and drywallers about the benefits of Gardz. (I've been remodeling this house for several years.) They had no knowledge of its benefits. I'll head over to the DIY for a new post with photos of drywall issues and more details. Thank you.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Theres absolutely no reason to do 2 coats of Gardz, FYI.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Has anyone experimented by adding Gardz to a normal drywall primer? Maybe use a 60/40 mix with Gardz at 40%. 

It's been over a decade since I've used Gardz, but if I remember correctly, it had the consistency of water. It is very drippy. If I was forced to prime an entire house with Gardz I'd probably use a Graco power roller.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Tell us more about your life.
> 
> futtyos


futty, what would you like to know?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*How I use Gardz for priming*



Mr Smith said:


> Has anyone experimented by adding Gardz to a normal drywall primer? Maybe use a 60/40 mix with Gardz at 40%.
> 
> It's been over a decade since I've used Gardz, but if I remember correctly, it had the consistency of water. It is very drippy. If I was forced to prime an entire house with Gardz I'd probably use a Graco power roller.


Mr. Smith, I personally would not experiment with mixing Gardz with a pigmented primer. If you are bent on doing so you might try to find a Scotch Paints Draw-Tite dealer near you. Draw-Tite is the original Gardz and comes in several flavors, some of which are pigmented white.

The only drawback I can see (or not see, as it were) with using a clear sealer like Gardz is in pointing up new drywall after sealing it. A coat of white usually shows all the defects quite plainly, whereas a clear coat does not.

I found that rolling Gardz has a learning curve which I easily attained after squeezing out a bunch on the first few rolls!

futtyos


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Mr Smith said:


> Has anyone experimented by adding Gardz to a normal drywall primer? Maybe use a 60/40 mix with Gardz at 40%.
> 
> It's been over a decade since I've used Gardz, but if I remember correctly, it had the consistency of water. It is very drippy. If I was forced to prime an entire house with Gardz I'd probably use a Graco power roller.



Over new drywall, its actually easy to spray.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> Has anyone experimented by adding Gardz to a normal drywall primer? Maybe use a 60/40 mix with Gardz at 40%.
> 
> It's been over a decade since I've used Gardz, but if I remember correctly, it had the consistency of water. It is very drippy. If I was forced to prime an entire house with Gardz I'd probably use a Graco power roller.


Gardz at 40% in a 60/40 mix with a drywall primer? What primer would that be? Do you really believe us painters are fricken chemists or have a hillbilly paint lab?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Mr Smith said:


> Has anyone experimented by adding Gardz to a normal drywall primer? Maybe use a 60/40 mix with Gardz at 40%.
> 
> It's been over a decade since I've used Gardz, but if I remember correctly, it had the consistency of water. It is very drippy. If I was forced to prime an entire house with Gardz I'd probably use a Graco power roller.


I mix gardz with 123 or similar acrylic primer all the time. Not drywall primer though. 

Draw tite has a no run product that has a very interesting consistancy.... Its very thin, but it holds together, similar to whip cream out of a can, or shaving cream. but as soon as its put on the wall, it goes for days. Twice the price of gardz though. doesnt smell half as bad either.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I mix Gardz with 123 or BM Fresh start Acrylic often.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

ProWallGuy said:


> I mix Gardz with 123 or BM Fresh start Acrylic often.


For new drywall? What's your mixture ratio? Can you tell us a little about why you started doing this and the immediate benefit?


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