# Do you cut in or razor off windows?



## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

I find it FAR easier to get paint on the windows and then razor them off when finished.
You cut twice, or sometimes 3 times, but you only have to razor once.
And it gives a cleaner line.
I usually leave a weather seal of about 2mm(1/12" in pig latin) on the bottom 
edge.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I use to cut, but it is too time consuming. Now I use a razor. But I do find it better, if I can, to wait a couple of days for the paint to harden. And, I do prefer the ones that use a utility knife. Tried a new extendible razor blade a few weeks and it took little time for the blade to break.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll cut in, even if it's 5 coats.

Thing is, if a HO sees paint all over the glass (even if only for a few hours) they think either;

"Hell, I could have done that myself"

or

"Sloppy painter"

The latter being the worst, because once they have that in their mind, they're gonna be looking at the rest of your work a lot closer.

I also don't like that the razor scrapings seem to stick to everything, and unless the windows are completely clean to start with, they're gonna need to be washed when you're done.

Scraping glass is boring too.

(There's lots of boring stuff in this business, why add another boring step unless you have to?)


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> I'll cut in, even if it's 5 coats.
> 
> Thing is, if a HO sees paint all over the glass (even if only for a few hours) they think either;
> 
> ...



Totally agree Steve. My Dad would roll in his grave if I did that. I know my grandfather sacked a guy after 20mins for doing just that. My Dad made a point of telling me that early on!


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Repaintpro said:


> Totally agree Steve. My Dad would roll in his grave if I did that. I know my grandfather sacked a guy after 20mins for doing just that. My Dad made a point of telling me that early on!


It's pretty basic painting 101. I normally wouldn't even have replied to this, but I wanted to share some knowledge and wisdom.

(and that was nice of me)


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Steve Richards said:


> It's pretty basic painting 101. I normally wouldn't even have replied to this, but I wanted to share some knowledge and wisdom.
> 
> (and that was nice of me)


Yep, do a nice cut in job and a little scraping if necessary.(rpp)


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

First of all, it's not "cutting in", it's "beading in". You cut in walls to trim (or vice versa), or walls to ceilings; you "besd in" at glazing. 

That being said, we typically only bead in sash when we get to do 1-coat work. More than that, and we've found it faster and tidier to go back and razor the paint off. We use razor bades and taping knives. The taping knife works as a guide to ensure that the paint is sealed to the glass. We see a lot of sash where the paint was razored off all the way to the wood or to the glazing compound, which will lead to problems, especially the former.

The biggest advantage of this approach is that it can be done by the greenest hand on the crew. We can teach our $15/hr helper how to do that on his/her first day, while the more expensive painters concentrate on more productive tasks.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Yeah well, I call it cutting in. "Beading in" sounds gay.

And I'd agree too, that if I had a beginner on my crew, I might let him get paint on the glass.

..but then I'd point and laugh at him.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Yeah well, I call it cutting in. "Beading in" sounds gay.
> 
> And I'd agree too, that if I had a beginner on my crew, I might let him get paint on the glass.
> 
> ..but then I'd point and laugh at him.


For clarity, we let the helper clean the paint off. They don't get to paint at all for the first 3 years.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Gough said:


> For clarity, we let the helper clean the paint off. They don't get to paint at all for the first 3 years.


I got to paint my first day on the job.

When I got home that day, my dad asked me if they charged me for all the paint I brought home on my clothes.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I gotta git.

Sorry I don't have time this morning for a proper de-rail


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Yeah anything that needs more than 1 coat gets overpaint on the glass and scraped back later. Windows get a thorough clean at the end of the job too.
Exception is the bottom horizontal beads, which I find more practicable to just cut in freehand, in case the substrate gets exposed during the scraping.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

If there was not such a phobia against that blue stuff that comes on a roll. It takes about 5 minutes to do a french door, this makes it quicker, and cleaner than scraping or beading in. But OMG what would another painter think if he saw you using it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I got to paint my first day on the job.
> 
> When I got home that day, my dad asked me if they charged me for all the paint I brought home on my clothes.


I figured you were trained by hacks.

What's the harm, I assume that I am already on every one of your SLs.


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## admirableptg (Oct 23, 2008)

We use a lot of liquid masking H20 on mult-pane windows. Spray and back brush with a Hvlp. Can run circles around cutting in. We always explain to the HO what we are doing so the don't complain about getting paint all over there windows. If you put the liquid masking on withy the correct mils and score with a sharp knife you will have good results. For single pane windows cut them in.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

But seriously though folks...a lot of painters have this hidebound view to tape, scraping, and a a lot of other ways to do things. They seem to forget the point of the exercise: to get paint on stuff that people want painted. If tape, or scraping, or foam brushes, or whatever is the most efficient way to do that neatly, why do it another way?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I just bead (thanks for the term there Gough) them in. Don't really know for sure if it would be faster for me to do it any other way, maybe I'll give scraping a shot next time.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I just bead (thanks for the term there Gough) them in. Don't really know for sure if it would be faster for me to do it any other way, maybe I'll give scraping a shot next time.


As I posted, with one coat, we found it worthwhile to bead them in. Typically, though, we're doing three. We hold a wide taping knife against the glazing compound or sash, and score a line on the glass side of the taping knife. Then we scrape to that scored line. We use the widest taping knife we can, and we end up with a nice straight line finely beaded onto the glass.


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## doitrite (Oct 16, 2014)

Gough said:


> First of all, it's not "cutting in", it's "beading in". You cut in walls to trim (or vice versa), or walls to ceilings; you "besd in" at glazing.
> 
> That being said, we typically only bead in sash when we get to do 1-coat work. More than that, and we've found it faster and tidier to go back and razor the paint off. We use razor bades and taping knives. The taping knife works as a guide to ensure that the paint is sealed to the glass. We see a lot of sash where the paint was razored off all the way to the wood or to the glazing compound, which will lead to problems, especially the former.
> 
> The biggest advantage of this approach is that it can be done by the greenest hand on the crew. We can teach our $15/hr helper how to do that on his/her first day, while the more expensive painters concentrate on more productive tasks.


I prefer to cut in..oh and I like beading too.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> First of all, it's not "cutting in", it's "beading in". You cut in walls to trim (or vice versa), or walls to ceilings; you "besd in" at glazing.
> 
> That being said, we typically only bead in sash when we get to do 1-coat work. More than that, and we've found it faster and tidier to go back and razor the paint off. We use razor bades and taping knives. The taping knife works as a guide to ensure that the paint is sealed to the glass. We see a lot of sash where the paint was razored off all the way to the wood or to the glazing compound, which will lead to problems, especially the former.
> 
> The biggest advantage of this approach is that it can be done by the greenest hand on the crew. We can teach our $15/hr helper how to do that on his/her first day, while the more expensive painters concentrate on more productive tasks.


I am doing that next time!


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I was told once that it is recommended, at least on exteriors that the paint goes onto the glass and the excess is scraped off. This way a better seal is created than if it was cut (um...beaded) .


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

The 3rd Coat said:


> Yeah anything that needs more than 1 coat gets overpaint on the glass and scraped back later. Windows get a thorough clean at the end of the job too.
> Exception is the bottom horizontal beads, which I find more practicable to just cut in freehand, in case the substrate gets exposed during the scraping.


Good on ya mayte. Aussies are so practical and sensible, unlike the Poms that do things because it's tradtional. and I'm a Kiwi, so that's saying something.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

If the HO thinks it looks messy that you have paint on the windows in your work in progress then you haven't done your job right of convincing them that you know what you are doing. 
I never have to worry though, I'm so handsome and lean they are usually standing there with their jaw on the ground, drool coming out. Once in a blue moon a fist in the chops sends them to the ground and whilst down there they get the message and apologize for questioning the big dog.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I mask the glass 90% of the time. Some freehand brush, but never cutting or scraping on glass at all, other than a light score to remove tape when done. Learned years ago, to tape is higher production with high quality results.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

In my 30+ years painting (to include my apprenticeship), I never slopped up the glass then razor-ed it off, ever. :whistling2:

And I never will. :no:

There are "painters" and then there are "PAINTERS".


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## Shakey0818 (Feb 1, 2012)

For me it all depends on how i feel.Sometimes i do it to fill the gap between the wood and glass.If i do this i tell the customer that i needed to fill in the gap properly.They always fall for it.When i do razor the windows i always clean the glass with Windex.Win/win for them.Basically comes down to if i feel lazy or not.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Yup..tape/scrape I don't care how anyone does it. 
I prefer free-hand and walk-away. 
Even if it's slower (which I doubt, but I haven't raced anyone lately) I find it more enjoyable.

BTW
I hate cleaning glass, and the best way to end up cleaning both sides of a window, is to clean one side.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Windows are the easiest peice to 'one and done' they are just made for it. Butter em up.
I don't remember for a fact, I'd bet the first things I ever painted were windows.
Bad shape ones at that.
I kinda learned how to use a brush by flooding the cracked up glazing to solid. Generous. Butter em up.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

PaintersUnite said:


> There are "painters" and then there are "PAINTERS".







I had a pretty traditional apprenticeship myself, and don't mean this as a knock to anyone personally, but one thing I have noticed about some PAINTERS is that they like to spend a lot of time playing with their brushes I certainly have over the years anyway. 

Of course brush skills are a staple for a tradesman painter. I like to cut in. I'm good at it and its rewarding to strike a nice sharp line. But the thing is, it's not always the most practical or efficient way to get professional results. 

More and more lately I've started to "think outside the brush", and I feel it's helped my overall efficiency and raised the quality of my product. 

Hmmmm....if I scraped the paint off the glass instead of cutting in maybe I could do window sash with a mini roller...... I judge my performance standards primarily by consistency and thickness of the film, The specific tools and methods used are less important.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> I had a pretty traditional apprenticeship myself, and don't mean this as a knock to anyone personally, but one thing I have noticed about some PAINTERS is that they like to spend a lot of time playing with their brushes I certainly have over the years anyway.
> 
> Of course brush skills are a staple for a tradesman painter. I like to cut in. I'm good at it and its rewarding to strike a nice sharp line. But the thing is, it's not always the most practical or efficient way to get professional results.
> 
> ...


Just one example of why you're a PPOTM!

That change from beading in to razoring off is one of the changes we made as we started running a bigger crew. The use of the wide taping knife to create a straight line of paint on the glass was a way to avoid the chewed-up razor blade work that we saw, and still see.

Thanks for the term, "thinking outside the brush," I'll try to remember to use it only with attribution.


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## vilmost (Jul 2, 2013)

I use yellow frogtape for precise results in minimal time. Don't like cleaning shavings and I am not a window washer. Took me a while to become the Speedy Gonzales of masking. I respect the PAINTERS but I am running a business and time is money.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> Just one example of why you're a PPOTM!
> 
> That change from beading in to razoring off is one of the changes we made as we started running a bigger crew. The use of the wide taping knife to create a straight line of paint on the glass was a way to avoid the chewed-up razor blade work that we saw, and still see.
> 
> Thanks for the term, *"thinking outside the brush,"* I'll try to remember to use it only with attribution.


Lets have a "on location paint off" and will see who the PPOTM is? :whistling2:

If I caught a guy painting windows as such, with the razor off method, he would be "thinking outside the unemployment line". 
No wonder HO's think anyone can paint. You are making it a skill-less trade.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> Just one example of why you're a PPOTM! That change from beading in to razoring off is one of the changes we made as we started running a bigger crew. The use of the wide taping knife to create a straight line of paint on the glass was a way to avoid the chewed-up razor blade work that we saw, and still see. Thanks for the term, "thinking outside the brush," I'll try to remember to use it only with attribution.





PaintersUnite said:


> Lets have a "on location paint off" and will see who the PPOTM is? :whistling2: If I caught a guy painting windows as such, with the razor off method, he would be "thinking outside the unemployment line".  No wonder HO's think anyone can paint. You are making it a skill-less trade.


Not to speak for anyone. Gough to me when he states 'bigger crew'. I get it. ' bigger crew' is the keyword here.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Let's not get all hopped up over this.

I'm sure everyone here is an above average painter. The other painters are on CrappyPainterTalk.com


Paint sash however you want. Paint everything however you want. There's more than one way to skin a cat. 

(no offense meant to the PT cat lovers)


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## pmlod (Oct 11, 2013)

I have done both scraped paint off and free hand. Never have taped. One of,the first guys I ever worked for used the term " pleasing to the eye". If you do,the quality of work the HO wants and paid for and you,did it in the time frame you,need then who cares. Painting has changed over the years . If,you don't change with it you get left behind.


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## phillyholiday (Jun 5, 2014)

If it's exterior we usually do a quick walk and clean our lines with a razor anyways when doing our cutbacks and touch ups. Otherwise it's "beading off"...I mean beading in freehand. Just remember if you are planning on painting and scraping interior windows make sure they aren't tinted!


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Or obscured windows. One side is usually flat at least.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I have seen painters getting hit with an insurance claim against them for scratching the glass. I know some toughened and tinted glass scratches easily.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Many windows I work on have terrible sanding scratches near the edges, left by previous painters. So much so that sometimes, overpaint can't be removed entirely without some intricate technique of digging it out.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I have seen many blow and go crews down in the city( D.C. and or Baltimore) just spray glass and all and pay some other lackey to come back and scrape the paint off the glass.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve Richards said:


> Let's not get all hopped up over this.
> 
> I'm sure everyone here is an above average painter. The other painters are on CrappyPainterTalk.com
> 
> ...


but no one as good as paintersunite:no::no::no:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

chrisn said:


> but no one as good as paintersunite:no::no::no:


:notworthy:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't know, as much as I understand the philosophy of slop 'n' scrape, I still just have this idea that experienced professional painters should be able to cut (bead) in sashes quicker than razor, tape, or other short cuts (or is that "short bead").

Painting is mindless enough without adding another humdrum, mind-numbing method. AND the average HO has enough excuses to feel ANYONE can paint with out fueling that fire by witnessing slop 'n' scrape.

But what do I know, I quit painting to become a slop 'n' paste hack paper hanger


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> I have seen painters getting hit with an insurance claim against them for scratching the glass. I know some toughened and tinted glass scratches easily.


Yeah, tempered glass is especially prone to this, since it's tough but soft. We did the decorative painting on a new home where the PORDs ruined all of the glazing in a long wall of French doors. I think there were at least a dozen 15-lite sash doors that had to be re-glazed. Apparently, they used the same razor blade for all of the doors.

Also others have pointed out, obscure glass and glass with sanding scratches aren't suitable for this approach.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> I don't know, as much as I understand the philosophy of slop 'n' scrape, I still just have this idea that experienced professional painters should be able to cut (bead) in sashes quicker than razor, tape, or other short cuts (or is that "short bead").
> 
> Painting is mindless enough without adding another humdrum, mind-numbing method. AND the average HO has enough excuses to feel ANYONE can paint with out fueling that fire by witnessing slop 'n' scrape.
> 
> But what do I know, I quit painting to become a slop 'n' paste hack paper hanger


:thumbsup: 

It comes down to the difference between " could" and "should" , especially on three-coat work. Certainly, we could bead in the primer and both topcoats, but should we? Is that the most efficient use of a $75/hour+ skilled painter, especially in a new house with scores of 24-lite all-wood (in and out) arched-top windows? 

To clarify, we're typically talking about that slop being 1/4" +/- rather than the industry-recognized 1/32" . The average HO hardy even notices that...and our clients have been effusive in their praise for the finished product. 

Old-world trade skills are all fine and dandy, but there is a tipping point where nostalgia meets economic reality.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

If you're gonna razor the glass and you're worried about scratching it, you can lubricate the razor blade with a small amount of dish soap in water. Works like a charm.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> If you're gonna razor the glass and you're worried about scratching it, you can lubricate the razor blade with a small amount of dish soap in water. Works like a charm.


:thumbsup:

Or ammonia and water, which is what we use to wash the windows while we're cleaning up the bead lines. The other important tip: switch to a fresh SERB often.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Both.

on doors we tape the windows, do our thing, then when we're done we take a scapr and clean off any excess paint from any of the current or previous applicators


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I once had a guy working for me doing an exterior. He was a cabinet maker by trade but had some time off and I needed a helper. I told him that the muntin paint should extend ABOUT 1/32 onto the glass to seal the glazing (NO I did not confuse him with technical terminology)

After awhile I was wondering WHAT was taking him so long on the back side of the horse stables. When I went around and asked how he was doing, he was SO proud of himself for getting EXACTLY 1/32" onto the glass.  

Precision is is a good thing - - for cabinetry, NOT for back sides of horse stables.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

daArch said:


> I once had a guy working for me doing an exterior. He was a cabinet maker by trade but had some time off and I needed a helper. I told him that the muntin paint should extend ABOUT 1/32 onto the glass to seal the glazing (NO I did not confuse him with technical terminology)
> 
> After awhile I was wondering WHAT was taking him so long on the back side of the horse stables. When I went around and asked how he was doing, he was SO proud of himself for getting EXACTLY 1/32" onto the glass.
> 
> Precision is is a good thing - - for cabinetry, NOT for back sides of horse stables.


Wonder how he was planning on mitering the paint in the corners? Probably going to cope cut it for a nice joint.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

no profesional painter should slop and scrape. Its amateurish.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> no profesional painter should slop and scrape. Its amateurish.


So even if it's faster, leaves a neater finished product, and costs the client less, we should bead in? Why is that? Tradition?

I've heard the exact argument from the previous generation of painters, only it was about airless sprayers. I've even known some really old guys who also felt that way...about rollers.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Brian C said:


> no profesional painter should slop and scrape. Its amateurish.


Agreed.

The fact that Gough does it, and apparently plans to continue, only means he'll be out of business very soon,

..probably some time next week.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

daArch said:


> I don't know, as much as I understand the philosophy of slop 'n' scrape, I still just have this idea that experienced professional painters should be able to cut (bead) in sashes quicker than razor, tape, or other short cuts (or is that "short bead").
> 
> Painting is mindless enough without adding another humdrum, mind-numbing method. AND the average HO has enough excuses to feel ANYONE can paint with out fueling that fire by witnessing slop 'n' scrape.
> 
> But what do I know, I quit painting to become a slop 'n' paste hack paper hanger


soooooooo, you are saying all us REAL painters are mindless idiots


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The fact that Gough does it, and apparently plans to continue, only means he'll be out of business very soon,
> 
> ..probably some time next week.


Thanks for the heads up, Steve. I was going to order some new whites...but I guess I won't bother.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I used that same (hilarious) line on you over on CT, years ago.

WTF

How come you keep doing stuff wrong?


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

*How To Paint A Window - How to paint a sash window using correct technique.*

I'm with this Aussie. 
How To Paint A Window - How to paint a sash window using correct technique. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4dFhDPVz0


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I used that same (hilarious) line on you over on CT, years ago.
> 
> WTF
> 
> How come you keep doing stuff wrong?


FLC (Flat Learning Curve).

How come you never get new material?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> FLC (Flat Learning Curve).
> 
> How come you never get new material?


LMAO.

These posts are the real reason I joined PT. :yes:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> So even if it's faster, leaves a neater finished product, and costs the client less, we should bead in? Why is that? Tradition?
> 
> I've heard the exact argument from the previous generation of painters, only it was about airless sprayers. I've even known some really old guys who also felt that way...about rollers.


When you are dealing with inexperienced painters -- You Go Gough! :jester:


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## Sting ya (Oct 22, 2014)

We never paint glass... Sure some paint may get on there, but after completely coated we check over quickly with razors. In the area we work, if a window was left with paint all over the glass and a HO saw that, they would most likely get bent. If a painter cant cut a clean edge or keep the glass clean, they are not working for me. In fact its one of the ways i test a new guy that says hes a professional painter, I put him on windows and doors. It tells a lot


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintersUnite said:


> When you are dealing with inexperienced painters -- You Go Gough! :jester:


How did you get on our job site? That was you?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Gough said:


> FLC (Flat Learning Curve).
> 
> How come you never get new material?


or maybe the virtual memory is low, yah know there is just too much useless minutia offered up on these two bit forums to remember what every one byte whacko writes :whistling2:



seems to me i've heard that recently


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> soooooooo, you are saying all us REAL painters are mindless idiots


No, not MINDLESS idiots . . . . . . . . . :jester:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> In my 30+ years painting (to include my apprenticeship), I never slopped up the glass then razor-ed it off, ever. :whistling2:
> 
> And I never will. :no:
> 
> There are "painters" and then there are "PAINTERS".


Once had a little old lady customer of mine would say there painters and there are ainters!


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

Gough said:


> First of all, it's not "cutting in", it's "beading in". You cut in walls to trim (or vice versa), or walls to ceilings; you "besd in" at glazing.
> 
> That being said, we typically only bead in sash when we get to do 1-coat work. More than that, and we've found it faster and tidier to go back and razor the paint off. We use razor bades and taping knives. The taping knife works as a guide to ensure that the paint is sealed to the glass. We see a lot of sash where the paint was razored off all the way to the wood or to the glazing compound, which will lead to problems, especially the former.
> 
> The biggest advantage of this approach is that it can be done by the greenest hand on the crew.  We can teach our $15/hr helper how to do that on his/her first day, while the more expensive painters concentrate on more productive tasks.


yeah i thought the same god dam thing once upon a time! i had an apprentice, and got him to "razor" 25 odd windows....

showed the lil ****er what to do, told him to make sure he lubricated the glass with wd40 so it wouldn't scratch the glazing.... and what happens.... 25 sash windows had been ANNIHILATED with scratches! cost me over $2000 for glazing, install and repainting. 

the point here is it was he's fault but mine more ! not for trusting him but for being an idiot to think i could implement a system which had so much risk! 

now we blue tape the permitter of all glazing, cabinetry etc, no sanding scratches, no cutting in, no paint everywhere etc only small surgical cleaning required. when ever HO see blue tape they are like " yep, i got a pro " lol


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

gawd, if I taped the window glass with masking tape back when I was an apprentice, I would have been given a slap by the tradesmen for being an amateur. 

Profesional painters cut in windows, period !


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can paint a 6 over 6 with frame in 15 mins.... Probably take a helper that long just to clean the glass so for me it's pointless.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I never understood the painting the glass thing. An experienced painter should be able to
Put the paint anywhere he wants so if he can put it on the glass he should be able to back it up 1/4" an put it where it belongs... The only exception is when the window is already whacked then I'll hit the glass an come back later an clean it all up but if the glass is already clean it needs to stay cleAn


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> I can paint a 6 over 6 with frame in 15 mins.... Probably take a helper that long just to clean the glass so for me it's pointless.



If the $80/ hr painter takes 15 minutes to bead it in carefully, that's $20/window. If he can do it less carefully in half that time, that's $10 for his work. If the $15/hr helper takes 20 minutes to clean it, that's $5 more for a total of $15.

My whole point in this argument is that we can easily get bogged down in long-established, traditional ways of doing things. PT is full of threads about similar topics: tape versus freehand, brush versus miniroller, wearing whites,etc. As Jmays puts it, sometimes it helps to "think outside the brush". 

Sometimes, it helps to step back and take a cold, hard look at how we do things.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

putting aside your argument of saving some time, whats the homeowner going to think if they see that sort of shoddy work ?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> putting aside your argument of saving some time, whats the homeowner going to think if they see that sort of shoddy work ?


What sort of shoddy work is that, Brian? You mean in the middle of the process? How is that fundamentally different from spackle that hasn't yet been sanded, or areas that have been spot primed? 

Maybe we've just been lucky, our clients' main concern seems to be the finished product.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I regard deliberately painting onto glass as shoddy. There are several members here that agree with me.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> I regard deliberately painting onto glass as shoddy. There are several members here that agree with me.


Fair enough. When you brush/roll a celing before painting the walls, do you bring the celing paint down on the wall?
:whistling2:


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

c'mon, now your being silly. 

I cannot agree with you on the overpainting onto glass and would never allow my workers to do that on my jobs.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I want to take your star away from you brother.


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

sorry brian i agree with gough's way of thinking. the issue isn't whether or not you can or cannot cut in a window perfect its about devising a system which doesn't cater for perfection yet still produces a finish product thats no better or worse than your competitor. I'm sure that if you seen how chicken nuggets or salami was made you wouldn't eat it but when you purchase the finish product you enjoy it. no different to what gough is doing same with me, i use the tape to speed up production. if my apprentice or trade assistant can tape window quicker than they can paint a window then thats good news for me as someone will come behind them with a spray gun and paint the window in 20 seconds. same principle applies to every task, i may be able to do things perfect but i cannot expect my staff to because :

1. it isn't their business
2. it isn't their name, pride or reputation on the line
3. not making as much money as me
4. not as skilled as me 
5. yada yada yada!

so you must devise an alternative, which is profitable and is forest gump simple! in my case i thought the paint on the glass then razor blade was simple but i got arse raped lol


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

Well I guess i'm an old school painter and set in my ways about stuff like this. I reckon its taking away your skill at crisp cutting in of a window frame.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

There are plenty of opportunities for you to showcase you cutting-in skills. Walls to ceilings, woodwork to walls etc. But a 3 -coat paintjob on windows is more effcicient and leaves a longer lasting result if you overpaint and scrape. Overpainting (with acrylic) fills small gaps between glass and beading (or putty), that's a given. Overpainting with primer and 2 top coats fills them even better.

I've never had a single client that has had any concern about this system. In fact they are very impressed cos they see it makes sense.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Brian C said:


> c'mon, now your being silly.
> 
> I cannot agree with you on the overpainting onto glass and would never allow my workers to do that on my jobs.


I think not


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> I can paint a 6 over 6 with frame in 15 mins.... Probably take a helper that long just to clean the glass so for me it's pointless.


Im telling you straight to your monkey face that it's quicker to razor the windows off. I can do a whole house in an hour.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

mv8710 said:


> Im telling you straight to your monkey face that it's quicker to razor the windows off. I can do a whole house in an hour.


aaand now we're name-calling.

LOL

Come on guys. It's just painting.

If you wanna scrape the glass, fine.
If you wanna tape the glass, fine.
If you wanna cut-in the glass, fine.
If you wanna bead-in the glass..well, hmmm, never mind


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## glennb (Mar 7, 2012)

i think we all have to leave the notion of quality behind, we are all painting contractors in our own respect so i think it mainly comes down to the task/process/system/business application rather than the quality as it should just be a given that we can all produce a finish that a customer will pay for


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## Kustom WerK (Oct 2, 2011)

If its a simple pane window then I have always just painted a nice straight line.
Ifs it's sashed windows then they are usually in rough shape and need glazing so I 
inform the HO that it's almost cheaper to replace them and that the newer windows are much 
more energy efficient. If they insist on painting their sashed windows then the price is so high that I can't lose either way.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

mv8710 said:


> Im telling you straight to your monkey face that it's quicker to razor the windows off. I can do a whole house in an hour.



Don't included me in your bull**** ....you and I are not the same


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

There are some skilled painters here an then there are some highly skilled painters here. Guys have systems In place that best for their work environment an skill level. The problems comes when one tries to tell another what is best fit him an vise versa. Additionally, the skill level of your average painter has become so watered down that it's hard for them to fathom how proficient a traditionally trained painter can be.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Now I'm off to work to paint windows, eat an make some videos


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

mv8710 said:


> Im telling you straight to your monkey face that it's quicker to razor the windows off. I can do a whole house in an hour.


 First warning on name calling. There won't be a second. You can count on a 30 day "vacation" if it happens again. In the meantime, read the posting rules.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

glennb said:


> i think we all have to leave the notion of quality behind, we are all painting contractors in our own respect so i think it mainly comes down to the task/process/system/business application rather than the quality as it should just be a given that we can all produce a finish that a customer will pay for


The razor method as I've described it, using a taping knife to create the straight edge, doesn't result in an inferior final product. We've had years of feedback to support that. 

I now understand that this notion seems to threaten or offend the sensibilities of some of our members. Is it the solution in all situations? Clearly not. As you've found out, and as we've all seen, it can cause a lot more problems than it solves if it's done poorly or in an inappropriate situation. But I'm also not such hidebound mossback that I refused to even consider that there are cases when it yields the highest quality most efficiently.


Like tape, paint pads, stilts, mini rollers, and so much else, it's just one more tool. As Steve pointed out, way upthread, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Carry on.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I just want to be in a market that supports Gough's $80/hr example.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> First warning on name calling. There won't be a second. You can count on a 30 day "vacation" if it happens again. In the meantime, read the posting rules.


It's actually just an expression, how is it calling a name?
It comes from when Homer said "If they legalise pot I could walk straight up to the president and blow smoke straight into his monkey face"
However, I'll stifle my creativity if it's rocking the boat.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> Don't included me in your bull**** ....you and I are not the same


why's that? does it take you 3 hours to razor off a house?


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

we should agree to disagree on this subject.

I find flaws in razoring off paint from window frames.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Brian C said:


> we should agree to disagree on this subject.
> 
> I find flaws in razoring off paint from window frames.


Strewth, most of the windows these days are aluminum anyway.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

not on my jobs. I only do old period homes with timber window frames.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Brian C said:


> not on my jobs. I only do old period homes with timber window frames.


fair dinkum?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

mv8710 said:


> fair dinkum?


Right after Wolf warned you about name calling?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

ok. I looked it up

never mind

Still, here in the USA, you walk up to someone and ask 'em if they "fair dinkum" I doubt you're gonna like what happens next very much.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> ok. I looked it up
> 
> never mind
> 
> Still, here in the USA, you walk up to someone and ask 'em if they "fair dinkum" I doubt you're gonna like what happens next very much.


It's okay.


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> Right after Wolf warned you about name calling?


So are you a righty or a lefty? and do you take your shoes off before you put your foot in your mouth or leave your shoes on?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

mv8710 said:


> So are you a righty or a lefty? and do you take your shoes off before you put your foot in your mouth or leave your shoes on?


Dude, who roughed you up when you were little?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

mv8710 said:


> do you take your shoes off before you put your foot in your mouth ?


It depends on which ones I'm wearing.

I leave my bacon shoes on :thumbsup:


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## mv8710 (Jul 28, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> It depends on which ones I'm wearing.
> 
> I leave my bacon shoes on :thumbsup:


mmmmm everything is better with bacon


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> Dude, who roughed you up when you were little?


It's ok, TJ

I don't think he realized I was giving him an SR SL test.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Been so busy with work thought I would sit down for a cuppa and see what this thread is about ?

But couldn't be bothered I'm more Intrested do you guys like two tea bags or one : )


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Nice and strong









Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## fortunerestoration (Mar 6, 2014)

Taping knife followed by washing and wiping with soft/clean cloth is widely used to get finer line. However I wonder if using taping knife leaves some ugly scratches on the windowpane.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ben,

Obviously you enjoy your spot of tea.

As such a avid enjoyer, do you EVER brew LOOSE tea, or always the bags ?

I find bags just aren't as good. I also hear the bags are filled with literally the chaff and sweepings from the floor, where as the large full flavor leaves are what loose tea is comprised of. 

Not that I'm a snob :whistling2:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

I have a new system in place that I am going for this week. I plan to spray an occupied residence, no drop cloths and no tape (just cover furniture with plastic). I will bead the baseboards 1/4 inch to the hardwood floors and tile (should be a snap). When I am done the painting, I will send a few illegal carpet cleaners in there, along with a cleaning lady to steam clean the carpet, razor off the hardwood floors and tile from beading the baseboards. Tops, clean up will cost me $150. :jester:

I think this will be a breakthrough regarding production rate, quality and professional service. And most of all, I will be able to provide a more cost effective price to the client. :jester:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> I have a new system in place that I am going for this week. I plan to spray an occupied residence, no drop cloths and no tape (just cover furniture with plastic). I will bead the baseboards 1/4 inch to the hardwood floors and tile (should be a snap). When I am done the painting, I will send a few illegal carpet cleaners in there, along with a cleaning lady to steam clean the carpet, razor off the hardwood floors and tile from beading the baseboards. Tops, clean up will cost me $150. :jester:
> 
> I think this will be a breakthrough regarding production rate, quality and professional service. And most of all, I will be able to provide a more cost effective price to the client. :jester:


I think you could use a double tea bag.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> I think you could use a double tea bag.


I am thinking, maybe even a triple in this instance:blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I think you could use a double tea bag.


Was that a typo? Did you mean *D*-bag :whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PaintersUnite said:


> I have a new system in place that I am going for this week. I plan to spray an occupied residence, no drop cloths and no tape (just cover furniture with plastic). I will bead the baseboards 1/4 inch to the hardwood floors and tile (should be a snap). When I am done the painting, I will send a few illegal carpet cleaners in there, along with a cleaning lady to steam clean the carpet, razor off the hardwood floors and tile from beading the baseboards. Tops, clean up will cost me $150. :jester:
> 
> I think this will be a breakthrough regarding production rate, quality and professional service. And most of all, I will be able to provide a more cost effective price to the client. :jester:


OH SH!T, Now Richmond's secret to success is made public


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

benthepainter said:


> View attachment 26384
> 
> 
> Been so busy with work thought I would sit down for a cuppa and see what this thread is about ?
> ...



Coffee

Tho I do like an Earl Grey now and then. Typically one bag, thank you very much.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Coffee
> 
> Tho I do like an Earl Grey now and then. Typically one bag, thank you very much.




G'day Mr T 

Just got the kettle on wont be long









Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> Ben,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

benthepainter said:


> G'day Bill
> 
> Just teabags but I did try these pyramid shaped bags last week really nice
> 
> ...


Those pyramid bags are made out of silk (at least the ones I have seen). I think they are better than the paper ones. 

BTW, my mug is 20 oz, so I use enough tea for two cups. One of my favorite Teas is Constant Comment, but it's a little too much of the Orange and spice, so I brew one bag with a teaspoon of loose English Breakfast.


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## BuckeyePainter (Feb 14, 2014)

I cut them in, wipe paint off glass as it happens. However, it does help if you got a really nice angle brush and a rock steady arm.


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## Nigel (Dec 30, 2010)

Ever since I started using liquid mask on sashes. I've never looked back. You can brush it on the glass and still get great results. Way easier and faster than "cutting in, beading" or scraping glass. Suprised I only read one other mention of the product in the whole thread. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hjBdL6dojDU&autoplay=1#


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I have seen this product but haven't tried it myself. Looking at the video, you can slop it over the timber and have no problems with paint adhesion. Is that correct ?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Brian C said:


> I have seen this product but haven't tried it myself. Looking at the video, you can slop it over the timber and have no problems with paint adhesion. Is that correct ?


Brian, that's my understanding. We looked at a little when it first showed up in the stores around here. It seems to bear more than a little resemblance to some of the clear acrylic bonding primers like Peel Stop, etc. I have been tempted to see if they would perform the same way.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm wondering why a painter wouldn't score it and peel it off of the wood portion before they spray paint.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

thats what i'm wondering. Surely the clear latex on the timber should be removed before painting.


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## ozpaint (Jan 4, 2008)

Brian
Look up Seal and Peel WB 5000.Their information says it adheres aggressively to timber but peels of the glass.


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

thanks mate, you reckon its alright leaving it on the timber and painting over it ?


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

> _Look up Seal and Peel WB 5000.Their information says it adheres aggressively to timber but peels of the glass. _



If it was raw wood I would want to prime it, so if the liquid mask is put on it doesn't need primer anymore?


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

I've used this stuff, its only benefit is that it's thicker than paint and fills the gaps well.

This thing is designed for poor adhesion (otherwise wouldn't peel so easily) and great cohesion, not quite the stuff I want between layers of paint or even less so straight on a bare substrate.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

The 3rd Coat said:


> I've used this stuff, its only benefit is that it's thicker than paint and fills the gaps well.
> 
> This thing is designed for poor adhesion (otherwise wouldn't peel so easily) and great cohesion, not quite the stuff I want between layers of paint or even less so straight on a bare substrate.


designed for poor adhesion and great cohesion? or NOT for great cohesion? If it had great cohesion then it would penetrate the wood for a cohesive bond.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ridesarize said:


> designed for poor adhesion and great cohesion? or NOT for great cohesion? If it had great cohesion then it would penetrate the wood for a cohesive bond.


It has great *cohesion*, it sticks great to itself and peels off the glass in a sheet. It doesn't adhere well to glass. The real question is how well it adheres to the sash.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

It doesn't adhere well to anything non-porous. It's used as temporary protection from damage, not just on glass but on any non-porous surface. It probably sticks better to bare wood than to previous paint, but I'd rather be using primer.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I've used Liquid Mask quite a bit on French Door and garage door windows. I try to get as little of the stuff as possible on the wood. It does have a strong primer smell (reminds me of the Bullsye in this regard) and the product information says it is safe to use over the wood, but I am going to error on the side of caution and use it to mask the glass and not as a primer.

It does work nicely.


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## ozpaint (Jan 4, 2008)

As well as painting we run a side business where we supply and install peelable 
Coatings to the building industry.After windows are installed on a project we are called in to protect them.We apply the product to glass and aluminium/powder coated frames by paint roller.On timber windows we coat the glass only and stop with a beaded edge 10 mm from the timber.We sell it as general protection from
Scratches,paint and render splashes ,brickies mud etc.The product is usually left on for the duration of the project and removed during the final clean 

I have tested our product on bare timber and it seems to adhere quite well.I painted over it and there seems to be no problems.

The only problem I have is me.As a painter with forty years experience I just can't bring myself to use it as a primer under a paint system I am putting my name to!


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## burchptg (Jun 30, 2013)

I don't care what the amateurs say, clean up is ALWAYS slow and demoralizing. I just painted a french door in the same amount of time it takes to mask all the panes off. From laying down the drop under the door to cleaning the brushes it took 30 minutes. How on earth do you figure slop and scrape is faster and more economical?


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

burchptg said:


> I don't care what the amateurs say, clean up is ALWAYS slow and demoralizing. I just painted a french door in the same amount of time it takes to mask all the panes off. From laying down the drop under the door to cleaning the brushes it took 30 minutes. How on earth do you figure slop and scrape is faster and more economical?



Did you paint it three times in 30 mins? I think that scenario is what's being hypothesized as being potentially faster to tape or razor off.


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## burchptg (Jun 30, 2013)

So prime + 2 coats = 1.5 hours. How long does it take to razor off oil primer and 2 topcoats? The door was originally painted with oil so latex primer was not an option. Don't forget to add the time it took to slop paint everywhere to the scraping time and the time to vacuum up the chips. And to remember to haul up a vacuum. I seriously doubt it's faster.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

burchptg said:


> I don't care what the amateurs say, *clean up is ALWAYS slow and demoralizing.* I just painted a french door in the same amount of time it takes to mask all the panes off. From laying down the drop under the door to cleaning the brushes it took 30 minutes. How on earth do you figure slop and scrape is faster and more economical?
> 
> 
> burchptg said:
> ...


Yes, slopping and scraping is how homeowners paint. Speed is always 2nd in my book. I charge the HO to do it like a skilled professional painter is trained to do. 

Slopping and scraping shows no skill whatsoever. After my sales presentation, in which I state; "I am a highly skilled master painter", how can I slop and scrape, then look the customer in the eye with dignity?

If you are a painting contractor, employing 20 y/o - inexperienced painters, doing new construction, slop and scrape your hearts out... Yup, I feel ya! :thumbsup:


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