# air scrubber



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

We're thinking about buying an air scrubber and I'm wondering what you guys like/dislike.
Do you own one? Which one is the most conducive for the type of work you do? Our needs are fairly basic--dust (sanding and such), very little interior lead removal or containment, basic remodeling uses. We're mostly concerned with occupied residential and maintaining a healthy habitat for our beloved homeowners and their loved ones. 
And for the occasional OCD neurotic homeowners (that should probably see a shrink and seek medication...imnsho) to whom PERFECTLY clean is simply not clean enough. lol  

whatcha got fellas?


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

lilpaintchic said:


> We're thinking about buying an air scrubber and I'm wondering what you guys like/dislike.
> Do you own one? Which one is the most conducive for the type of work you do? Our needs are fairly basic--dust (sanding and such), very little interior lead removal or containment, basic remodeling uses. We're mostly concerned with occupied residential and maintaining a healthy habitat for our beloved homeowners and their loved ones.
> And for the occasional OCD neurotic homeowners (that should probably see a shrink and seek medication...imnsho) to whom PERFECTLY clean is simply not clean enough. lol
> 
> whatcha got fellas?


The door and Windows


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

I like them, but I don't think you'll ever recoup the money you spent on it. Most of the ones I have come across need to be vented outside or use very expensive filters that don't last long.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I just gotta find the right nut to pay for it then? 

Seriously though...we just gave away $900 to keep a customer happy. Carpenter got sawdust everywhere in the garage and did a poor job cleaning. We just replaced and repainted all the doors and jambs in the house, remodeled the master bath and painted existing brown sills and handrails white. Lots of sanding (with the vacuum running to minimize dust). Masked and unmasked every day. Plastic covering everything and cleaned up daily..Thorough clean up...la la la....fans sucking air and blowing it outside. Still not enough. We swifter dust and sweep again at the end of every day...Next step. Air scrubber. The money I save on aspirin should pay for it eventually...lol


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

lilpaintchic said:


> I just gotta find the right nut to pay for it then?


They are out there.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Which one do you have gb?


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

If you have a HO that's as OCD as the client you mentioned an air scrubber might not even be enough. I'd recommend setting up zip walls to contain dust in your work areas and hanging plastic in doorways to minimize the possibility of dust traveling throughout the house.

If you haven't looked into it, festool and mirka sanders have amazing dust collection. Both companies also sell hand sanding blocks that you can hook up to a vac. 

Despite taking all those measures the house will probably need to be cleaned by a top notch cleaning crew at the end of the job anyways. Last year I was working in a house and the cleaner was using a halogen light to search for dust in the master bedroom. I'd never seen such a thing, for wealthy OCD people it's not uncommon according to the cleaner.

Fine Homebuilding had an article in a recent issue about air scrubbers. You should check it out.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

THANK YOU!! I will check it out. I've been thinking about festooned and some of the other gear designed tor lead containment. Proceeding in that manor is the best bet for sure and it's the two birds with one stone thinking...we just don't deal with enough lead to justify the expense right now but I figure if we're dumping $900 on this then we may as well be investing in the future. I mentioned both of your ideas to my boss this morning actually (full on lead protection minus the ppe extremes), not in verbatim but very close to it. We'll see if he bites. Never heard of the Mirka though....definitely checking in to it. Thanks again.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

For $900 you could of bought a festool vac and 1 sander or a negative air machine. It might not have fully accomplished what you needed for this job though.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Not a scrubber, but it will move a lot of air out, in a hurry, 1500+Cfm, and it's cheap.


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

lilpaintchic said:


> Which one do you have gb?


I don't have one, but have been on many hospital jobs where they have been used. I have looked into buying one and once I seen the price and figured out the time to transport it and set it up I decided they are not feasible


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Not a scrubber, but it will move a lot of air out, in a hurry, 1500+Cfm, and it's cheap.
> 
> View attachment 62441


Tape a hepa filter to it and their you go. A air scrubber.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As EP points out, you really need the proper CFM to create the air changes that will capture airborne contaminates. I've used what are known as dust collectors when abrasive blasting. These units usually sit on a trailer and are run by diesel engines. They can be very expensive, so we would rent them for specific projects. 

Whatever you come up with, they will likely need large diameter flex pipe to channel out doors.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gracobucks said:


> Tape a hepa filter to it and their you go. A air scrubber.


 a cheap furnace filter, some ducting and a plastic container gets you a cheap, hillbilly spray booth.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

The Festool sanders are excellent at capturing dust, but the main reason I went with Festool sanders is because they transmit very little vibration to your hands. If you've ever have to sand for 6+ hrs a day you'll understand how important this is.

Also, I don't do any lead work, but the fact Festool is RRP compliant is an added bonus.

Fisheries Supply also carries the Festool and Mirka sanders if you're ever in Fremont.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gracobucks said:


> I don't have one, but have been on many hospital jobs where they have been used. I have looked into buying one and once I seen the price and figured out the time to transport it and set it up I decided they are not feasible


Yeh and reallyin the hospitals they vent to the outside. So? I don't know what they are scrubbing the air for to send it outside? 
But I think it makes people 'feel' better, and that is what counts. But hey depending on what is ur clientele and how much are you trying to charge hey a air scrubber or two may just put you over the top.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> Yeh and reallyin the hospitals they vent to the outside. So? I don't know what they are scrubbing the air for to send it outside?
> But I think it makes people 'feel' better, and that is what counts. But hey depending on what is ur clientele and how much are you trying to charge hey a air scrubber or two may just put you over the top.


I can tell you, if I was a patient recovering in post op, having undergone hemeroidial surgery, or some other inconvenience, and I noticed a painter recklessly sanding away with no dust recovery system while I was enjoying an apple juice from my sippy cup, I would raise holy hell! Even if it meant me shuffling along with my buttless gown, yelling at the miscreant to stop work immediately and purchase an air scrubber.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Not a scrubber, but it will move a lot of air out, in a hurry, 1500+Cfm, and it's cheap.
> 
> View attachment 62441


I use the same fan but went for the 12" which is 2900 cfm and the 32' vent hose. The largest room I used it in was a 30x40 with 10' ceiling. Was a little under sized for that but still changed the air every 4 minutes.


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## Gracobucks (May 29, 2011)

Oden said:


> Yeh and reallyin the hospitals they vent to the outside. So? I don't know what they are scrubbing the air for to send it outside?
> But I think it makes people 'feel' better, and that is what counts. But hey depending on what is ur clientele and how much are you trying to charge hey a air scrubber or two may just put you over the top.


They vent outside to create negative pressure. This forces the air in the room to be scrubbed and stops it from escaping into clean areas.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Thanks for all the feed back guys! I haven't even looked at the festools yet I've just read about them a bit in other posts here and there. Definitely checking into it. The crew is growing and so is the dust.i figure if we get the right gear I won't have to babysit as much.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

lilpaintchic said:


> Thanks for all the feed back guys! I haven't even looked at the festools yet I've just read about them a bit in other posts here and there. Definitely checking into it. The crew is growing and so is the dust.i figure if we get the right gear I won't have to babysit as much.



Yeah, check them out. I'm glad I finally got one. 

You really don't have to buy fancy German tools to sand dustless though. Some duck tape and a shop vac is about all it takes to make most orbital sanders dustless. I've been doing that for years and honestly, as much as I love the Festool set up it isn't any more effective at dust containment than a Dewalt taped to my Ridgid HEPA. Not as fancy for sure, but it collects dust just as well. 

For hand sanding there are dozens of dustless set ups. This is one of my favorites for drywall patches. 

http://www.hydetools.com/featured-tools/sponge-sanders/17899

Most dustless hand sanders use screens which I don't like. This little thing is basically a shroud for a sanding sponge. About $16 at Sherwin, or a little more at box store. Except for getting right into corners, it works great. 

Guess I'm stating the obvious here, I just sometimes feel compelled to point out that all that's really needed for dustless sanding is the will to do it. Thousands of dollars in fancy tools helps, but it's not necessary. 

That said, I've been very surprised at the reluctance to adopt dustless methods by many journeyman painters I've ran across. Lot of guys I've tried to train in those methods really act like they don't want to bother with it. Why not just throw plastic over everything and sand away? Well, because that doesn't really work. Not very well anyway. In modern homes where air is constantly moving from AC or heat, or even just air pressure changes from opening and closing doors, dust in the air is always going to end up somewhere it shouldn't. Solution = no airborne dust. It's not really that hard if you want to do it. Training a crew to do it consistently, is another story.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

And training the dang carpenters, too...btw, I got a garage floor for ya to do.  lololol


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I feel that the reluctance of most painters to go dustless is that it costs a lot $$$. The equipment can be expensive and it can add time to a job.

Personally, I try to be dustless for my own safety.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PNW Painter said:


> I feel that the reluctance of most painters to go dustless is that it costs a lot $$$. The equipment can be expensive and it can add time to a job.
> 
> Personally, I try to be dustless for my own safety.
> 
> ...


Going dustless is also a pain in the butt. I have a Festool extractor with the RO90 sander. I was sold on it because of the quality, accessories, style, and because it is German. I even got the cordless drill that has nothing to do with dustless tools and cost more than the other brand names drills. I was just caught up in the blue and green clean machine.

I think the issue is how you have to control the unit with all the vacuum hose, special perforated abrasive paper, and lugging around a vacuum cleaner. It's not like the old days where I could easily grind and sand away with my Makita or Porta Cable palm sander. Back then, you developed a touch and proper abrasive choice that allowed you to control the prep you needed at twice the speed these new dustless equipment allow.

I suppose dustless equipment has got to be the direction for the industry to take. I just wish that our customers, clients, and stakeholders understood the extra time and effort providing an environmentally safe painting and coating service takes, and how their dollars can help to support that.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Going dustless is also a pain in the butt. I have a Festool extractor with the RO90 sander. I was sold on it because of the quality, accessories, style, and because it is German. I even got the cordless drill that has nothing to do with dustless tools and cost more than the other brand names drills. I was just caught up in the blue and green clean machine.
> 
> I think the issue is how you have to control the unit with all the vacuum hose, special perforated abrasive paper, and lugging around a vacuum cleaner. It's not like the old days where I could easily grind and sand away with my Makita or Porta Cable palm sander. Back then, you developed a touch and proper abrasive choice that allowed you to control the prep you needed at twice the speed these new dustless equipment allow.
> 
> I suppose dustless equipment has got to be the direction for the industry to take. I just wish that our customers, clients, and stakeholders understood the extra time and effort providing an environmentally safe painting and coating service takes, and how their dollars can help to support that.


Since having adopted dustless tech I have seen it be nothing but benefits to my company. In terms of prep, festool has allowed me to prep better and faster then before. Having a vacuum right there to remove what little dust is left after sanding makes for less time in removing dust filled drops to clean them and return, We sand, vac, tack and paint in less time. I can also take on projects that I could not competitively bid before this. HO always appreciate the care that it shows. And the crew appreciates a healthier work environment, despite the occasional complaint about lugging a vac or hose management (which we have become very good at). 
Velcro One Wrap has made cord/hose management very easy.











So I think it is starting to be understood in certain areas/markets, but it may never catch on in others. As with all change it will be adopted fast by some and reluctantly or out of necessity by others.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PRC said:


> ...So I think it is starting to be understood in certain areas/markets, but it may never catch on in others. As with all change it will be adopted fast by some and reluctantly or out of necessity by others.


Well, even if there is reluctance or resistance, the EPA, and eventually OSHA, will require the exclusive use of dust retrieval systems in the painting industry. Those who can't make the shift will eventually resist themselves out of the industry. 

Using dustless equipment, certainly requires a learning curve. Some will pick it up quicker than others.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Well, even if there is reluctance or resistance, the EPA, and eventually OSHA, will require the exclusive use of dust retrieval systems in the painting industry. Those who can't make the shift will eventually resist themselves out of the industry.
> 
> Using dustless equipment, certainly requires a learning curve. Some will pick it up quicker than others.


For working around LBP, OSHA was requiring HEPA vac-equipped sanders for 17 years before EPA did. That was plenty of time to get used to it. For wood and other nuisance dusts, they've had exposure rules since '93.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> a cheap furnace filter, some ducting and a plastic container gets you a cheap, hillbilly spray booth.
> 
> View attachment 62449


Were you sneaking around my paint lab last night?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> For working around LBP, OSHA was requiring HEPA vac-equipped sanders for 17 years before EPA did. That was plenty of time to get used to it. For wood and other nuisance dusts, they've had exposure rules since '93.


Obviously, OSHA has regulated lead exposure limits for some time now. And if engineering those limits included APR HEPA cartridges, containment construction, proper handling and disposal of lead, and good hygiene practices, they were certainly enhanced by the use of HEPA vacuums. But I don't believe OSHA necessarily mandated the use of vacuums on all lead removal projects before RRP.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Obviously, OSHA has regulated lead exposure limits for some time now. And if engineering those limits included APR HEPA cartridges, containment construction, proper handling and disposal of lead, and good hygiene practices, they were certainly enhanced by the use of HEPA vacuums. But I don't believe OSHA necessarily mandated the use of vacuums on all lead removal projects before RRP.


IIRC, HEPA vacs have been required from the outset for cleanup. Using them on sanders is an allowable "engineering practice" to reduce employee exposure below the levels where respirators, containment, coveralls (and othe PPE) are required.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> IIRC, HEPA vacs have been required from the outset for cleanup. Using them on sanders is an allowable "engineering practice" to reduce employee exposure below the levels where respirators, containment, coveralls (and othe PPE) are required.


Tell the truth, were you searching for that all morning? But I get it. HEPA VAC's good, hacky miscreant painters bad. And although I personally don't have a need to defend my current painting practices, (because they're all compliant) I'd been grinding on wooden siding back in the 70's and 80's with dusty sanders and no containment, so I get the resistance to change.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Tell the truth, were you searching for that all morning? But I get it. HEPA VAC's good, hacky miscreant painters bad. And although I personally don't have a need to defend my current painting practices, (because they're all compliant) I'd been grinding on wooden siding back in the 70's and 80's with dusty sanders and no containment, so I get the resistance to change.


I certainly didn't need to look it up. We've been stripping old houses since then as well and we got on board with OSHA 1926.62 from the very beginning. From the first air monitoring we had done, it was clear that using HEPA vacs (for both cleanup and dust collection at the source) was the way to go. 

We'd actually been using shop vac with our sanders for some time before that, so it wasn't a big deal, the outlay for HEPA vacs a$ide.


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