# Duration on vinyl...now it's warping!!!



## xr4ticrew

Hey everybody,

I did a job on an older house earlier in the summer. The house is half and half vinyl and wood siding. Previous colors were white and light blue. 

The homeowner wanted to go to a darker mortar-type of color, and initially I was going to turn the job down, knowing that warping is a problem with vinyl and darker colors.

Until, that is I found the info that Sherwin Williams Duration is 'vinyl safe' . Sprayed on 2 coats on the vinyl, and now, about 2 months later, the east side which gets a lot of sun, is beginning to warp and ripple....


What to do??? Should SW pay for re-siding the house? Anybody else had a problem like this with Duration?

Thanks
Rick


----------



## tedrin

xr4ticrew said:


> Hey everybody,





xr4ticrew said:


> I did a job on an older house earlier in the summer. The house is half and half vinyl and wood siding. Previous colors were white and light blue.
> 
> The homeowner wanted to go to a darker mortar-type of color, and initially I was going to turn the job down, knowing that warping is a problem with vinyl and darker colors.
> 
> Until, that is I found the info that Sherwin Williams Duration is 'vinyl safe' . Sprayed on 2 coats on the vinyl, and now, about 2 months later, the east side which gets a lot of sun, is beginning to warp and ripple....
> 
> 
> What to do??? Should SW pay for re-siding the house? Anybody else had a problem like this with Duration?
> 
> Thanks
> Rick[/quot
> 
> Possibly the siding was improperly installed and nailed too tight to allow for expansion...It needs to be taken down and re-installed...No doubt it is the darker colour absorbing more heat and the expansion room is not there..Thus the warping...


----------



## RCP

Did you make sure it was tinted with the Vinyl Safe Tint, not all colors are.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Read the spec sheets, what exactly is the guarantee? Does it guarantee warping or adhesion, ect? Have you called your rep? 
I cant see them guaranteing a warping issue.


----------



## bikerboy

Not all of SW colors are "vinyl safe". They have an actual chart of "vinyl safe" colors. They will at best only stand behind the colors listed as vinyl safe.


----------



## RCP

ewingpainting.net said:


> Read the spec sheets, what exactly is the guarantee? Does it guarantee warping or adhesion, ect? Have you called your rep?
> I cant see them guaranteing a warping issue.


I called my rep on this last month, he said lifetime material against fading, cracking and peeling if properly applied (7 mil). You cannot find it written specifically on SW site.

Again, until we know if it was a Color Safe Tint, all bets are off.


----------



## xr4ticrew

Hmmm...Sounds like the SW salesman I spoke to steered me wrong. They told me any color was fine to use as long as it was Duration. Looks like I might be replacing some siding...
Sumbitch!


----------



## RCP

What color is it?


----------



## tedrin

xr4ticrew said:


> Hmmm...Sounds like the SW salesman I spoke to steered me wrong. They told me any color was fine to use as long as it was Duration. Looks like I might be replacing some siding...
> Sumbitch!


No need for that...Like I said it might just need to be re-installed to allow more room for expansion...


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Regardless, i would be giving my rep a shout! 
Good luck!


----------



## Rick the painter

How much experience does the SW salesman have?


----------



## RCP

Here is part of the brochure.


----------



## johnpaint

You ar not suppose to paint any darker that the existing color of the vinyl.


----------



## daren

I think Tedrin's suggestion should be tried first.


----------



## Mantis

johnpaint said:


> You ar not suppose to paint any darker that the existing color of the vinyl.


^---- this.

Vinyl Safe is kind of tricky goose. Its a technology term that Sherwin should use a lot more loosely than they do. When choosing a Vinyl Safe color you can pick from a pre-set list of colors, or you can choose your own. If you choose your own color be aware that you cannot make adjustments to the formula and retain the Vinyl Safe guarantee. Vinyl Safe works off a balance in the tints used in the paint. By that i mean each color is run through the computer and the right amount of each tint is used to find the right balance and allow the product to perform without warping the vinyl underneath. So, once its shot, any change in the tint formula will throw off the balance and render the Vinyl Safe Technology part of the product ineffective. Also, you cannot go with a color darker than the original color its being applied to. The problems with this stuff can be compounded.

I dont think removing the siding and reinstalling it will cure your problem if its already warped. But im no sider, couldnt hurt to try at this point eh?


----------



## DeanV

What? I thought the entire point of Vinyl Safe colors was that you could use any color they called Vinyl Safe over any color of existing vinyl siding. Otherwise, who the heck cares about it "Vinyl Safe." I think a part of it is they avoid black tint which could absorb more heat and cause more warping, but what do I know since I only get a few things from SW.


----------



## Mantis

Their webpage tauts:
*VinylSafe™ Colors*











*Features*



Paint dark colors on light vinyl siding without causing buckling
Offer more color options to customers
More sales opportunities for you
Select from 100 popular colors or custom match with Sher-Color
Available in Duration® or SuperPaint® Exterior coatings
I was informed otherwise when inquiring on it a while back. Maybe ill call and see what Frank has to say


----------



## DeanV

"Paint dark colors on light vinyl siding without causing buckling"

I am guessing there is a whole lotta small print concerning what "dark" is.


----------



## SWGuy

There is a separate chart that contains vinyl safe colors. If a color is chosen off of that chart, you can paint a darker color over a lighter vinyl. I would call your rep and get them involved.


----------



## In Demand

I tried to get a vinyl safe color chart from SW, nobody had them and they said they cant get them anymore.


----------



## Mantis

SWGuy said:


> There is a separate chart that contains vinyl safe colors. If a color is chosen off of that chart, you can paint a darker color over a lighter vinyl. I would call your rep and get them involved.


I was told it doesnt make a difference whether or not your color was a custom match or picked off the chart. The only factor with custom colors is that's its a 1 shot deal. The computer identifies the tints needed to achieve the proper "balance" and tints the paint. any tweaks to the color afterwards will change that balance and render the paint vinyl safelessy.

Regardless of what's true, sounds like the Sherwin stores could use a memo on whats what with this stuff.


----------



## RCP

The pixs I posted earlier are from the colorsafe chart, SW gave me a stack a few weeks ago.


----------



## Wolfgang

ModernStyle said:


> I tried to get a vinyl safe color chart from SW, nobody had them and they said they cant get them anymore.


Name and address and I'll send you some.


----------



## In Demand

Wolfgang said:


> Name and address and I'll send you some.


Modern Style Painting
1501 Sinclair Street
Fort Wayne, IN 46808


----------



## In Demand

My SW rep said you _*must*_ tell them that you need the vinyl safe formula, otherwise it will not work.


----------



## RCP

ModernStyle said:


> Modern Style Painting
> 1501 Sinclair Street
> Fort Wayne, IN 46808


I'll send you something!


----------



## johnpaint

Vinyl safe or no vinyl safe, if the vinyl get hotter because of being a darker color, it will expand the vinyl more because of the heat. Just don't use a darker color and forget about SW dribble.They only warrant their product and not the vinyl under it.


----------



## In Demand

RCP said:


> I'll send you something!


Should I buy hand lotion in anticipation ?


----------



## ewingpainting.net

ModernStyle said:


> Should I buy hand lotion in anticipation ?


Now, why the hell do you need to put that out? Keep your crud humur to yourself or in PM's


----------



## johnpaint

ewingpainting.net said:


> Now, why the hell do you need to put that out? Keep your crud humur to yourself or in PM's


You savage you. With a lisp, of course.


----------



## In Demand

ewingpainting.net said:


> Now, why the hell do you need to put that out? Keep your crud humur to yourself or in PM's


Sorry .......... I will PM you next time, boss


----------



## MR.X

ummm i have one simple question...what does the label on top of your can say? if theres a formula on the can then its not vinyl safe "formulation" which fyi,has nothing to do with balance of tint....its perpritory info on how the system works.... also ive never heard of the one shot one deal thing with it...
what i mean by formula is the tints used l;isted on your can for example
black 1 under the ounce heading and such,if so...not vinyl safe


----------



## Metro M & L

I've gone round and round with sherwin on this. Half the guys say you can put duration on and it will be fine because it's 'vinyl safe' (They're wrong). Then some say you can pick any color off the chart (They're wrong). Then there are the guys who say that you can pick any color lighter than the existing siding color (They're rightest).

Now. How do you know if the color is lighter? The decks have light reflective values on the back (lrv). The best I've found is to find a comparable color to the siding and that's the lrv you have to be below. Sherwin said they did not know how to determine the lrv of the existing siding. 

Bottom line; painting vinyl siding is dangerous. One f'd up job could blow a month or even a whole summer's worth of profits.


----------



## jay&h painting

obviously,You do not know what you are doing. but, your very fortunate because I am going to help. First off if it were me my sw rep would have the siding replaced in heart beat.but, that's because I do so much business with them they would not question what I say. you are different, not quite on my level, not many painters are, so don't feel bad about that, that's just life. Now as I'm sure you don't know the molecular molecules in the paint are not compatible with vinyl, therefore you have infused the siding with an unstable reactor (paint). what you need to do is reverse this process by seperating the reactive solids from the non active liquids this is a very complicated process and I'm afraid I can't tell you anymore for fear of blowing your mind! just trust me it's serious.


----------



## Metro M & L

jay&h painting said:


> obviously,You do not know what you are doing. but, your very fortunate because I am going to help. First off if it were me my sw rep would have the siding replaced in heart beat.but, that's because I do so much business with them they would not question what I say. you are different, not quite on my level, not many painters are, so don't feel bad about that, that's just life. Now as I'm sure you don't know the molecular molecules in the paint are not compatible with vinyl, therefore you have infused the siding with an unstable reactor (paint). what you need to do is reverse this process by seperating the reactive solids from the non active liquids this is a very complicated process and I'm afraid I can't tell you anymore for fear of blowing your mind! just trust me it's serious.


So fighting the urge for an ad hominem attack. Let me be the first to suggest that you make an effort to contribute positively to the community; you will probably find you get out what you put in.


----------



## Workaholic

jay&h painting said:


> obviously,You do not know what you are doing. but, your very fortunate because I am going to help. First off if it were me my sw rep would have the siding replaced in heart beat.but, that's because I do so much business with them they would not question what I say. you are different, not quite on my level, not many painters are, so don't feel bad about that, that's just life. Now as I'm sure you don't know the molecular molecules in the paint are not compatible with vinyl, therefore you have infused the siding with an unstable reactor (paint). what you need to do is reverse this process by seperating the reactive solids from the non active liquids this is a very complicated process and I'm afraid I can't tell you anymore for fear of blowing your mind! just trust me it's serious.


What an intro. Cockiest first post I have read all week. 
jay&h you can also go here to give us more information about yourself.


----------



## MR.X

vinyl safe has nothing to do with product its all color.... and i think you need to look at resins and what some are made of, ever hear of a vinyl acrylic resin?! hmmm sounds strange doesnt it? its a vinyl containing resin,and yeah ive got to agree with workaholic here,very cooocky and i highly highly doubt any SW employee would take your word as god,doesnt work that way,sorry.....


----------



## daArch

I'm glad to see that guy (jay&h painting) didn't last long again. He keeps popping up trolling about how's the best. 

I wonder what motivates people like that. Probably not enough vitamin love in his life.


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Is that that guy that was claiming to be tgr pres of the PDA?


----------



## daArch

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is that that guy that was claiming to be tgr pres of the PDA?


yes,


----------



## ewingpainting.net

Whats that dudes deal? I can see playing around 1 or 2 or times. Does he actually think his chit doesnt smell?


----------



## austintx512

there is a vinyl formula that u have to use make sure u say that ur painting vinyl siding


----------



## Wolfgang

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is that that guy that was claiming to be tgr pres of the PDA?


What name was he posting under then?


----------



## 6126

I would never try to go with a darker color over vinyl siding. It will buckle the siding. I dont care what the label says about "Vinyl safe colors" I dont trust it. Just like I dont buy the "Self priming" thing or "Lifetime warranty" "One coat coverage", etc. Vinyl siding expands and contracts a lot with the heat. A darker color will cause it to expand even more. I realize this is an old post. Im not even sure if they still sell the "Vinyl safe colors" anymore ?


----------



## TheRogueBristle

Sorry, no experiences on "Vinyl Safe", but I couldn
t resist this:



Metro M & L said:


> So fighting the urge for an ad hominem attack. Let me be the first to suggest that you make an effort to contribute positively to the community; you will probably find you get out what you put in.


_Very_ reserved. I am impressed.


----------



## xr4ticrew

Necrothread???


----------



## Rick the painter

What a croc i wouldnt use ANY friggin paint thats darker than the siding regardless of what they say.


----------



## 4ThGeneration

Duration is a heavy bodied paint. Maybe that was the case.


----------



## 4ThGeneration

jay&h painting said:


> obviously,You do not know what you are doing. but, your very fortunate because I am going to help. First off if it were me my sw rep would have the siding replaced in heart beat.but, that's because I do so much business with them they would not question what I say. you are different, not quite on my level, not many painters are, so don't feel bad about that, that's just life. Now as I'm sure you don't know the molecular molecules in the paint are not compatible with vinyl, therefore you have infused the siding with an unstable reactor (paint). what you need to do is reverse this process by seperating the reactive solids from the non active liquids this is a very complicated process and I'm afraid I can't tell you anymore for fear of blowing your mind! just trust me it's serious.


 
Maybe this would help?


----------



## TheRogueBristle

4ThGeneration said:


> Duration is a heavy bodied paint. Maybe that was the case.



So it's the wight of the paint causing the problems?:jester:


----------



## GuyWhoKnows

For all those who replied about not all colors are vinyl safe...this is true. Find out what color it was, check and see if it is on the vinyl safe chart, and if not, just ask SW to help you fix it. It's not SW fault if you picked a color not on the chart, but if they are like my store, they like to help people


----------



## hammerheart14

johnpaint said:


> You are not supposed to paint any darker that the existing color of the vinyl.


YEP!!!!!!!!!!


NEVER, EVER paint vinyl with a color darker than the original or the heat will warp it!!!!!!!!!


----------

