# Spraying Waterborne with an HVLP



## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Does anyone spray waterborne paints and primers with an HVLP? If so, what you are using, and are you able to get a decent finish with waterborne and HVLP.

I am working on a small bathroom vanity this week, which consists of 4 small doors and 5 small drawer faces.I can always pull out the airless if I need to, but thought this project (and small projects like it) would be perfect for an HVLP.

Here is what I have done so far...
I primed one coat with Zinsser SmartPrime using #5 needle (2.2 mm) Graco 9.5 ProFinish, air maxed at the turbine and gun, and the fluid setting around ~6. I have been trying to spray at package consistency, but ended up adding a little water (maybe 5%), because it was spitting. Have a #6 Fluid Set on order. 

Will be top-coating with SW Acrylic Alkyd.

Most of the newer waterborne paints (hybrids) and primers do not recommend thinning *at all*, and therefore only recommend airless sprayers. I have spoken to the technical departments for paints, primers and sprayers at length about this, and they explained that the new formulations are not designed to be thinned, and HVLP is not designed to handle heavy bodied paints, as they max out at 10psi. 

Is this too much orange peel, or do you feel this is satisfactory for a primer coat? 
Would you sand it back before painting, or leave 'as is'? 
What do you do about the slight intermittent gap between the inset panel and the frame? 

Cabinet painting is not my strength, but I'm trying to improve (and would like to be able to use HVLP for some projects). Would appreciate any thoughts and feedback. 

Still working on "dialing it in": 









*WET: *









*DRY: *


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

yes orange peel with hvlp generally you need to thin more, probably more like 20-30% regardless what the manufacturer says. I never spray with more than 1.8mm so not sure the viscosity requirements of 2.2mm. The material should feel like waterborne lacquer once thinned. Lenmar 1WB.200 will spray unthinned with a 1.5mm for example. Centurion products need minimal thinning with 1.5-1.8mm. I know you have a hard time getting these modern urethanes in your location but they are designed to be sprayed HVLP and provide a superior finish to anything BM or SW make. In the meantime switching to gravity fed or pressure pot will help push paint grade materials with less thinning.

That said I have used the graco gun extensively and never got it quite dialed in how I wanted. The apollo 7700 is much easier (better IMO) if you ever want to pickup a second gun though it has quite a few more parts to clean... I would highly recommend having separate guns for solvent materials FYI.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

You are saying that orange peel needs to be thinned more, *and I hear that and understand*, but it goes against manufacture recommendations. 
They are saying their products (the new hybrids) are not formulated to be thinned with water. Several "techs" told me the newer hybrids/emulsions do not dissolve like solvents when thinned with water, but instead the particles separate further apart, weakening the film and reducing bonding capability (paraphrased).


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Paint manufacturers don't recommend thinning new waterborne hybrid paint at all. Thinning paint 30% surely cannot be advisable, as it must must reduce the paint integrity. 

*1.8- 2.2 tip is not unheard of for heavy primers.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> You are saying that orange peel needs to be thinned more, *and I hear that and understand*, but it goes against manufacture recommendations. . . Do it anyways?
> 
> It did level out when dry, but perhaps not enough?
> 
> They are saying their products (the new hybrids) are not formulated to be thinned with water. Is this a case where reality and theory collide? Several "techs" told me the newer hybrids/emulsions do not dissolve like solvents when thinned with water, but instead the particles separate further apart, weakening the film and reducing bonding capability (paraphrased).


Yes with HVLP there is a threshold you will pass when thinning and suddenly the material will just flow out like glass when atomized properly. Again gravity fed or pressure pot will help since your not having to siphon so much air to compress the cup liner/fluid up the tube. TBH I really don't think these turbine HVLPs provide enough air to properly atomize paint grade without thinning. Centurion and General finishes are ready to spray HVLP from the can. Corotech command needs to be thinned maybe 10%. Fresh start primer almost 30%. I don't usually measure so these are just ball park figures.

I have had tech reps tell me all sorts of nonsense like I can't spray lacquer via HVLP because it wasn't listed in the datasheet so I take it worth a grain of salt. And quite frankly if this was a matter of warranty issues/product support etc I wouldn't use paint grade at all.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

It is my understanding that the new hybrids are not water-based so much as 'waterborne', and there is point where water weakens the paint chemistry when thinning (the same way dyes do not dissolve in water, but if you add alcohol to dissolve them, then you can add some water, but not too much).


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> It is my understanding that the new hybrids are not water-based so much as 'waterborne', and there is point where water weakens the paint chemistry when thinning (the same way dyes do not dissolve in water, but if you add alcohol to dissolve them, then you can add some water, but not too much).


I don't use smart prime or any of the hybrids but here is someone 'scientifically' thinning to almost 30%, this is exactly how I was taught to do it though I just use water or corotech brushing reducer for oil.
Mixing Paint for HVLP Sprayers - YouTube

If you are not comfortable thinning conventional paints, I would really recommend you order in some Renner, centurion, enviorlak... In fact I would say do it anyway because they'll blow you away how good they are coming from paint grade.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

This is 123plus same as smartprime.
How to: Quickly Thin Paint to Spray Through a HVLP Gun - YouTube


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I’d rather use a larger needle for heavier bodied primers, than thin. SmartPrime is good at leveling out, so even if it’s not perfect it leaves decent results.

it sands to powder after an hour, so it can always be sanded.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> If you are not comfortable thinning conventional paints, I would really recommend you order in some Renner, centurion, enviorlak... In fact I would say do it anyway because they'll blow you away how good they are coming from paint grade.


My customers usually hand me a color chip or number from the available supplier. If I switch products I become liable.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Waterborne Acrylics are not Laquers. I don’t see why they need to be so thin.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> I've been trying to find a way to spray waterborne with HVLP without thinning, but apparently going to a larger tip size will increase the millage. This is bad?


Heat your product up. For every degree above 70*° *F, it's approximately the equivalent of reducing 1%. About the only time this doesn't work as well is with a turbine, since you're already dealing with hot air as the propellant. Most paints can be safely heated to 90*°* F with no ill effects. The addition of a retarder also helps. It'll give your product a bit more time to flow out.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

You might also look into Target Coatings. They've got some great waterborne offerings that are very simple to spray. Best of all, if you need assistance, you can call them and speak to the owner himself, Jeff Weiss. Not only is he the owner, he was the lead chemist when making his products. I once called on a Friday night to leave a message, (hoping for a call back the following Monday), and he returned my call early the next morning on a Saturday. That won't happen with Ilva, Milesi, Renner, etc. 

@RH was the first one to suggest I use Target Coatings several years ago, and it's one of the most useful tips I've ever picked up from this forum.

@cocomonkeynuts also made a very solid suggestion regarding the Apollo 7700. That thing practically sprays itself, and the difference in the finishing capabilities of that vs. Graco or Titan is huge.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I thought you bought a little pump with a hopper for small jobs? Or why not just use one of your battery handheld airless? I spray Stix and Freshstart primer with my compressor driven hvlp. I thin a them bout 15%. Although I agree with the others that these conventional water/hybrid paints just do not spray well with hvlp imo.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I thought you bought a little pump with a hopper for small jobs? Or why not just use one of your battery handheld airless? I spray Stix and Freshstart primer with my compressor driven hvlp. I thin a them bout 15%. Although I agree with the others that these conventional water/hybrid paints just do not spray well with hvlp imo.


yes, will pull that out if I need to.

I also have two HVLP’s ( one newer and one older ) which are getting dusty, and I’d like to see if I can make them work with modern waterborne paints. I have some time this right now to work on it, see if it’s a viable option for me…

Edit: The battery powered HVLP has been good for exterior work, but can’t see it being a fine finish option. …to be honest I have had nothing but problems with them. I got a plug in it at the end of summer, and have not been able to get it back to good. The Flex Spray is a great portable HVLP, really love it for small exterior projects and etc…, bit just don’t think of it as a fine finish option, especially when I have two 9.5’s sitting here. I use it exclusively (and often) for exterior painting and staining. 

I can modify current HVLP rig to spray gravity feed (or pressure pot) but haven’t gotten to that point yet. Kinda feeling my way into it.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> yes, will pull that out if I need to.
> 
> I also have two HVLP’s ( one newer and one older ) which are getting dusty, and I’d like to see if I can make them work with modern waterborne paints. I have some time this right now to work on it, see if it’s a viable option for me…
> 
> ...


I'm kind of in a similar boat as far as trying to figure out water based products (Scuff x, Breakthrough, Emerald) with the hvlp. Seem to always run into it either getting plugged somewhere or dry spray on the finish. Tried thinning, replacing check valves, gasket etc. After a few afternoons with no luck I put it way. Maybe I should try one of these non BM/SW products mentioned by you guys.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> You might also look into Target Coatings. They've got some great waterborne offerings that are very simple to spray. Best of all, if you need assistance, you can call them and speak to the owner himself, Jeff Weiss. Not only is he the owner, he was the lead chemist when making his products. I once called on a Friday night to leave a message, (hoping for a call back the following Monday), and he returned my call early the next morning on a Saturday. *That won't happen with Ilva, Milesi, Renner, etc.*
> 
> @RH was the first one to suggest I use Target Coatings several years ago, and it's one of the most useful tips I've ever picked up from this forum.
> 
> @cocomonkeynuts also made a very solid suggestion regarding the Apollo 7700. That thing practically sprays itself, and the difference in the finishing capabilities of that vs. Graco or Titan is huge.


In particular why I ended up going with centurion is the excellent product support. The are located in the same city i grew up in too. Can go visit wit their chemist anytime I like.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> I'm kind of in a similar boat as far as trying to figure out water based products (Scuff x, Breakthrough, Emerald) with the hvlp. Seem to always run into it either getting plugged somewhere or dry spray on the finish. Tried thinning, replacing check valves, gasket etc. After a few afternoons with no luck I put it way. Maybe I should try one of these non BM/SW products mentioned by you guys.


Thin product more, hold gun closer and use PPS cups to keep material away from air path


These other products are _really _impressive, my first time spraying some on some unprepped scrap and it came out looking and feeling like million dollar package. Not even trying and no prep I was just testing the spray pattern.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> My customers usually hand me a color chip or number from the available supplier.


color can be matched into these products, for example centurion has tint bases that a dealer can straight dispense BM command formula into and color is reasonably close to use..


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> You might also look into Target Coatings. They've got some great waterborne offerings that are very simple to spray. Best of all, if you need assistance, you can call them and speak to the owner himself, Jeff Weiss. Not only is he the owner, he was the lead chemist when making his products. I once called on a Friday night to leave a message, (hoping for a call back the following Monday), and he returned my call early the next morning on a Saturday. That won't happen with Ilva, Milesi, Renner, etc.
> 
> @RH was the first one to suggest I use Target Coatings several years ago, and it's one of the most useful tips I've ever picked up from this forum.
> 
> @cocomonkeynuts also made a very solid suggestion regarding the Apollo 7700. That thing practically sprays itself, and the difference in the finishing capabilities of that vs. Graco or Titan is huge.


Troy - glad you are happy with Target’s line of coverings. Although their Emtech 8000 was my main go to in their line, were I still in the game I would suspect I would have moved into using many of their products.

Holland - I spent a great deal of time trying to dial in a system for using my HVLP to spray waterbased enamels, but alas, I was never able to do so without having to thin the products so much that I felt the integrity of it was ruined. Plus, every product needed to have it’s own thinning ratio, something that just became an overwhelming PITA to work out and keep track of - especially when none of the results were satisfactory enough. Fortunately, I discovered the FFLP tips for airless rigs not long after they started to come out and for me they were a game changer. Once I started using them, I never looked back to my HVLP when enamels were in the picture (though for water-based clears, any stains, and thinned oil based enamels, my HVLP gave great results and so paid for itself many times over).


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

RH said:


> Troy - glad you are happy with Target’s line of coverings. Although their Emtech 8000 was my main go to in their line, were I still in the game I would suspect I would have moved into using many of their products.
> 
> Holland - I spent a great deal of time trying to dial in a system for using my HVLP to spray waterbased enamels, but alas, I was never able to do so without having to thin the products so much that I felt the integrity of it was ruined. Plus, every product needed to have it’s own thinning ratio, something that just became an overwhelming PITA to work out and keep track of - especially when none of the results were satisfactory enough. Fortunately, I discovered the FFLP tips for airless rigs not long after they started to come out and for me they were a game changer. Once I started using them, I never looked back to my HVLP when enamels were in the picture (though for water-based clears, any stains, and thinned oil based enamels, my HVLP gave great results and so paid for itself many times over).


I came across a few of your posts when looking up spraying wb with HVLP.

I’m not ready to give up yet… I used less than a quart to prime the doors/drawers for this job. I can’t see a scenario where that would make sense with an airless. I also didn’t have to put up a spray booth, and clean-up took about 10 minutes. I’m motivated to find a way.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Thin product more, hold gun closer and use PPS cups to keep material away from air path
> 
> 
> These other products are _really _impressive, my first time spraying some on some unprepped scrap and it came out looking and feeling like million dollar package. Not even trying and no prep I was just testing the spray pattern.


Thanks for the tips. I may try to get that thing out here in the next few weeks and give it another go. It'd be great to have the HVLP capability and some of those new products in my tool bag.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Heat your product up. For every degree above 70*° *F, it's approximately the equivalent of reducing 1%. About the only time this doesn't work as well is with a turbine, since you're already dealing with hot air as the propellant. Most paints can be safely heated to 90*°* F with no ill effects. The addition of a retarder also helps. It'll give your product a bit more time to flow out.


we use to do this with oil base Satin Impervo. Absolutely glass hand rubbed finish. Changes the viscosity with compromising the solids. I’ve sprayed Cabinet Coat, ScuffX, Advance, and Aura Satin with HVLP gravity gun and compressor set up. Takes a learning curve for each product to figure out the proper reducer and ratio. I find lacquer thinner works best for Advance, XIM for Cabinet Coat, Waterborne Extender for Aura and ScuffX. Water for lower sheen products.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

NACE said:


> we use to do this with oil base Satin Impervo. Absolutely glass hand rubbed finish. Changes the viscosity with compromising the solids. I’ve sprayed Cabinet Coat, ScuffX, Advance, and Aura Satin with HVLP gravity gun and compressor set up. Takes a learning curve for each product to figure out the proper reducer and ratio. I find lacquer thinner works best for Advance, XIM for Cabinet Coat, Waterborne Extender for Aura and ScuffX. Water for lower sheen products.


I would have never thought lacquer thinner for Advance. Interesting. I've tried Methyl Hydrate. On another note, if using a product like Advance, for just a small vanity, it may be just as well to brush and roll it with a micro fiber wizz. 🤷‍♂️


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Thank you for all the comments. It would be helpful if the comments were directed to the products I am currently using. I am moving a way from solvents altogether.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Aside from manufacturers warning not to thin, it has been mentioned that thinning new waterborne with water can lower the sheen. Can anyone confirm this?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I would have never thought lacquer thinner for Advance. Interesting. I've tried Methyl Hydrate. On another note, if using a product like Advance, for just a small vanity, it may be just as well to brush and roll it with a micro fiber wizz. 🤷‍♂️


I did roll the boxes, but the cabinets door profiles are just busy enough to make it worth spray. I have some time to try and figure out if HVLP is a good strategy for future small projects using waterborne. Any technical input would helpful.

This forum is becoming a sales pitch for products I don't use, or cant easily obtain. 🤷‍♂️


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

NACE said:


> we use to do this with oil base Satin Impervo. Absolutely glass hand rubbed finish. Changes the viscosity with compromising the solids. I’ve sprayed Cabinet Coat, ScuffX, Advance, and Aura Satin with HVLP gravity gun and compressor set up. Takes a learning curve for each product to figure out the proper reducer and ratio. I find lacquer thinner works best for Advance, XIM for Cabinet Coat, Waterborne Extender for Aura and ScuffX. Water for lower sheen products.


@NACE,
Thank you for the reply.

I would like it eliminate spraying solvents in the future (or at the very least minimize my exposure to them), I seem to be developing a sensitivity to some of them, aside from them just being unpleasant to work with.

How are you figuring out what to thin these products with? Is this trial and error, or are you basing it off of some information you have about them? *Have you ever thinned ProClassic Acrylic Alkyd?* If so, what was your experience? 

The emulsions definitely make it trickier to thin, without compromising the chemistry (and I'm no chemist).
How do you address the manufacturer's warning not to thin products, but to use at package consistency? I understand they _can_ be thinned, but there must be reasons the PDS state not to thin. I have been told it is because they are "hybrids". Can you speak to that issue?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> Aside from manufacturers warning not to thin, it has been mentioned that thinning new waterborne with water can lower the sheen. Can anyone confirm this?


It's just simple chemistry. Dilute any product down and you lessen the amount and capability of your base products. If diluted far enough, it will have an affect on everything; from lowering the sheen to lessening the overall film integrity.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

@Holland, I think if you were to heat your product, use your ED 655 with FFLP tips, you'll solve all your problems. I understand the desire for wanting to dial-in a HVLP finishing system for waterbornes, but even if and when you do, it'd likely produce no better final result than your diaphragm pump setup.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> @Holland, I think if you were to heat your product, use your ED 655 with FFLP tips, you'll solve all your problems. I understand the desire for wanting to dial-in a HVLP finishing system for waterbornes, but even if and when you do, it'd likely produce no better final result than your diaphragm pump setup.


Yes, I agree with you.
The ed655 is really the perfect airless for small jobs and cabinets. I am pretty comfortable using it with ff tips and achieving satisfactory results. Its still an airless though- for a small vanity, there would be more paint and cleanup in the hose than on the cabinet (literally), and the overspray would be more of an issue than with a cup gun.

As the painting industry (and myself) moves away from solvents, does that mean that HVLP's are no longer usable? I'm just trying to figure that out, as I already own two halfway-decent HVLP's. 

Thinning is the default approach to HVLP, but the modern paints do not recommend thinning. I'm just inquiring with other painters who may be more familiar with HVLP than I am, and trying to gather a consensus as to whether this "no thinning of wb's" can be safely ignored, or if I can just jump up to a larger needle size? Or whether the thicker millage will create undesirable finish.

I'm posting it on PT, because seems like its the kind of thing other painters might also be interested in, and more experienced painters ay be able to offer suggestions.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Yes, I agree with you.
> The ed655 is really the perfect airless for small jobs and cabinets. I am pretty comfortable using it with it using ff tips and achieving satisfactory results. Its still an airless though- for a small vanity, there would be more paint and cleanup in the hose than on the cabinet (literally), and the overspray would be more of an issue than with a cup gun.
> 
> As the painting industry moves away from solvents, does that mean that HVLP's are no longer usable? I'm just trying to figure that out, as I already own two halfway decent HVLP's.
> ...


The root of the problem is the general paradigm of american paint companies, the new products coming out of italy are so far ahead of what BM, PPG, SW produce its laughable actually. I realize you don't have this stuff available locally but the solution is really to get some of these other products shipped to you already tinted. I bet if you call around to some shops you'll find guys in your area are already doing that.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Holland said:


> @NACE,
> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I would like it eliminate spraying solvents in the future (or at the very least minimize my exposure to them), I seem to be developing a sensitivity to some of them, aside from them just being unpleasant to work with.
> ...


Trial and error. years of experience I guess. I'm old school so we use to thin stuff all the time despite manufacturers warnings. Always felt there was at least a 20% trial and error window with whatever the company says. Still can't figure out Advance reduction to my satisfaction. Only brushed the ProClassic. I don't have much experience with SW architectural coatings, only industrial.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

WET:










DRY:


















Added about 5-10% water.
seems like a better spray pattern.

edit: used 2.2 mm fluid set.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

NACE said:


> Trial and error. years of experience I guess. I'm old school so we use to thin stuff all the time despite manufacturers warnings. Always felt there was at least a 20% trial and error window with whatever the company says. Still can't figure out Advance reduction to my satisfaction. Only brushed the ProClassic. I don't have much experience with SW architectural coatings, only industrial.


Thanks. Going to try thinning with water, as I really want HVLP to be an option in the future.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

When I spray hvlp I usually use a 1.4 tip. I can get a good fan with the latex, but I find I still get lap marks on the over lap. The edges always seem to dry too quick. Good luck with your tests though. I have had success with the waterborne Saman clear coat. Like Coco says, there are also other products out there that are designed to be sprayed with hvlp, but I also have a hard time getting those products. Either that or they are designed for bare wood applications..


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## thepm4 (May 18, 2020)

For what its worth (I say that because as far as spraying, I have less hours than most on PT and spray threads always catch my attention), I sprayed Scuff-X on four vanity doors recently (between Xmas and new year) and was happy with the results. 

I have a Fuji 4 Stage Mini Mite with a T75gravity gun. I did not record my ratio of thinning with water. I did use "cleaner" water than tap water.
My guess is around a bit over 10%. Tip size was 1.8...I tried next size up and it came out similar to your first pics. 
I shot Stays Clear over that and turned out really nice, though sorry can't remember if I thinned the Stays Clear. I always feel i have to thin when using my Fuji so probably and not a lot....I want to get the pressure cups, but just haven't yet.

Cocomonkey suggested other paints to go with and with my next project, I am going to use Envirolak, both primer (think its called E9000..a bonding and stain kill primer in one) and topcoat(ELNYW200 at 20 sheen). I talked to Envirolak enough to feel like my Fuji will be able to deliver a quality finish. 

The closest distributor for me is is a PPG store in Southern Ohio and they are good people. I mixed the color on site, sent a swatch on wood and they nailed it.

Might have gotten off center of your inquiry, but I'm in a similar boat as far as HVLP use...so much to consider..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

thepm4 said:


> For what its worth (I say that because as far as spraying, I have less hours than most on PT and spray threads always catch my attention), I sprayed Scuff-X on four vanity doors recently (between Xmas and new year) and was happy with the results.
> 
> I have a Fuji 4 Stage Mini Mite with a T75gravity gun. I did not record my ratio of thinning with water. I did use "cleaner" water than tap water.
> My guess is around a bit over 10%. Tip size was 1.8...I tried next size up and it came out similar to your first pics.
> ...


I am glad to hear that you have been spraying waterborne with HVLP. Advance is very similar to Pro Classic Hybrid (I believe both are Acrylic Alkyds). Would appreciate seeing how your turned out, and any pictures you may have of w.i.p.

If the products are not available locally, I am not interested in them (at least not at this time). I am certainly *not *going to have them shipped here in winter, lol! I dont mind the products I have available, just learning to work within the parameters of what is available for the time being.

I am a little surprised that you could push a heavy waterborne through a 1.8 tip with a 4 stage unit. You must have had to thin it a lot!

Pondering:
If I am understanding correctly, a bigger needle (fluid set) reduces the amount of thinning necessary.
I was able to get the Acrylic Alkyd to spray pretty well with about 10% water and a 2.2mm needle. And I suspect that I could get a 2.5 needle to spray without thinning (much or at all).

I wonder why a smaller needle (1.8) would be necessary? After all they are heavier bodied paints. Why wouldn't a thicker paint be expected to have a thicker millage when applied and when dry? They level out pretty smooth, and even with a 2.2 tip I was putting on less than with an airless; looked similar (Still working on dialing it in).


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> I am glad to hear that you have been spraying waterborne with HVLP. Advance is very similar to Pro Classic Hybrid (I believe both are Acrylic Alkyds). Would appreciate seeing how your turned out, and any pictures you may have of w.i.p.
> 
> If the products are not available locally, I am not interested in them (at least not at this time). I am certainly *not *going to have them shipped here in winter, lol! I dont mind the products I have available, just learning to work within the parameters of what is available for the time being.
> 
> ...


I don't know that turbines have enough air to properly atomize waterborne material anything larger than 2.0 I start seeing orange peel. That said I havn't really tried since I don't own anything larger than a 1.8


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

#4 - 1.8 (I believe that is correct)
#5 - 2.2 (what I am currently attempting to use) 
#6 - 2.5 (I think) - I ordered this one to try, and see what happens.

*I wish Graco would use a standard millimeter reference for needle size, instead of # system. Is very confusing always translating it over in my head.

This is what the manual says, but the techs at Graco said they dial paint in for use with a 1.8 needle.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

thepm4 said:


> For what its worth (I say that because as far as spraying, I have less hours than most on PT and spray threads always catch my attention), I sprayed Scuff-X on four vanity doors recently (between Xmas and new year) and was happy with the results.
> 
> I have a Fuji 4 Stage Mini Mite with a T75gravity gun. I did not record my ratio of thinning with water. I did use "cleaner" water than tap water.
> My guess is around a bit over 10%. Tip size was 1.8...I tried next size up and it came out similar to your first pics.
> ...


 I'm also curious about the Envirolak products. They are manufactured in Ontario. I assume the w200 is spray only? And can be applied over existing finishes? Or are their products also bushable?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

"Just Sprayed" and "Surface Dry 1 hr.".

*I think if I hadn't orange-peeled the primer (although it did level out mostly), the top-coat would be a little better. Will check tomorrow to see if it changes any.

Graco 9.5 - 2.2 mm fluid set
SW PC Acrylic Alkyd (Satin) - thinned <10%
(air at machine max, air at gun max, fluid at gun ~4)

I decided to not heat the paint this time, although I am keeping that in my back pocket for future use. I wanted to "field test" this set-up, so I can duplicate it 'on the job' (and warm water may not always be available).


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Question for Experienced Sprayers:

Is this "glassy enough", given that the paint tends to flow and level, or should I be shooting for a more mirror-like spray?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> Question for Experienced Sprayers:
> 
> Is this "glassy enough", given that the paint tends to flow and level, or should I be shooting for a more mirror-like spray?


That is between you and your customer. I will say though, most clients wouldn't know the difference, but some can, and they want the very best you can do. The trick is identifying those people early on, show them samples, establish a repeatable finishing schedule, & charge enough to be profitable. I spent way too many years making things perfect for folks who never noticed nor paid me for that perfection.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Curious. Did you sand your orange-pealed primer before top-coats? The one thing about hvlp I find, is that I can't seem to get a thick enough coat on for it to level/get build. I'm not super familiar with SW products, although a quick search I noticed that the TDS for The Proclassic recommends an airless. However, the Emerald Urethane recommends an HVLP application with a #3 or #4 tip on a Graco 9.5. Is there a reason you decided to go with the PC over the EU? Man Sherwin sure has alot of products to sift through.! Alot of them looking very similar..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Curious. Did you sand your orange-pealed primer before top-coats? The one thing about hvlp I find, is that I can't seem to get a thick enough coat on for it to level/get build. I'm not super familiar with SW products, although a quick search I noticed that the TDS for The Proclassic recommends an airless. However, the Emerald Urethane recommends an HVLP application with a #3 or #4 tip on a Graco 9.5. Is there a reason you decided to go with the PC over the EU? Man Sherwin sure has alot of products to sift through.! Alot of them looking very similar..


I did not sand the primer. I think if I had thinned the primer about 10% the results would have been much better, but the texture mostly disappeared (you can kinda see it, but you have to look for it).

Yes PC Acrylic Alkyd recommends airless. I made numerous calls to SW Tech department about this. In the end they basically said if you can get it to spray (without thinning) we can recommend HVLP, their official advice was to play around and see if you can get it to work. Graco tech was extremely informative (recommending such things as putting a marble in the cup to keep the paint mixed, and use of Ford cups to determine viscosity).

I went with PC Acrylic Alkyd because the home I am working in was orginally painted using an Alkyd. I have used this product in the past as a match, and find that it closely approximates the original paint, and I comfortable spraying it. I basically won't spray oils/solvent anymore, as I have been developing a sensitivity to them in the past couple years. Even this wb hybrid bothers my sinuses. You've got the right idea with beefing up your mask.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> I did not sand the primer. Still not sure if I should have or not. I think if I had thinned the primer about 10% the results would have been much better, but the texture mostly disappeared (you can kinda see it, but you have to look for it).
> 
> Yes PC Acrylic Alkyd recommends airless. I made numerous calls to SW Tech department about this. In the end they basically said if you can get it to spray (without thinning) we can recommend HVLP, their official advice was to play around and see if you can get it to work. Graco tech was extremely informative (recommending such things as putting a marble in the cup to keep the paint mixed, and use of Ford cups to determine viscosity).
> 
> I went with PC Acrylic Alkyd because the home I am working in was orginally painted using an Alkyd (it appears to be sprayed). I have used this product in the past as a match, and find that it closely approximates the original paint, and I comfortable spraying it. I basically won't spray oils/solvent anymore, as I have been developing a sensitivity to them in the past couple years. Even this wb hybrid bothers my sinuses. You've got the right idea with beefing up your mask.


always sand the primer, that's how you get things butter smooth. Some are better than others and powder up if you just buff with 220


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> always sand the primer, that's how you get things butter smooth. Some are better than others and powder up if you just buff with 220


A case-by-case basis seems like a better approach.

I think I'm safe on this one, as the previous trim finish in the bathroom isn't buttery smooth
(neither were the boxes I rolled).


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> "Knowing what one should do" -vs- "seeing what will happen if one doesn't".
> 
> I have wondered how others handle their cabinet painting project from start to finish. I can see the advantage of sanding between the primer coat and topcoat, but have not always done this.
> 
> ...


hard to see without a close up macro shot but looks good from afar. brush, roll, hvlp or airelsss I would never shoot a top coat without at least buffing the primer. It provides mechanical bond and friction for your paint to level out on to


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> hard to see without a close up macro shot but looks good from afar. brush, roll, hvlp or airelsss I would never shoot a top coat without at least buffing the primer. It provides mechanical bond and friction for your paint to level out on to


I can see the advantage of sanding between primer and topcoat, if the intent is to create as smooth a surface as possible, but it shouldn’t be necessary to have a mechanical bond._* It is a primer after all.*_

It may also depend on the particulars of the job.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> always sand the primer, that's how you get things butter smooth. Some are better than others and powder up if you just buff with 220


Not to hijack the thread but since we're talking about sanding primer ...does anyone e
ever do two coats of primer with an semi- aggressive 180 or 220 sand between the first and second prime coats? I learned this technique from a cabinet builder on how they finish new cabinetry.I started experimenting with this on oak doors and found I could bury a whole lot of the grain with this method, however.... That's also when I started running into problems with cratering or what appeared to be solvent pop. 

I'm still in the middle of experimenting to determine if it was the sand paper I was using (Norton 3x which is stearated) or something to do with the technique, the primer (Smart Prime), or the top coat (Scuff-x). I've got a nice empty job this week I will hopefully be able to re-create and troubleshoot the problem.

Initially I thought the problem was too little time between coats or too much extender in the paint. But neither of those proved to be the problem.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Not to hijack the thread but since we're talking about sanding primer ...does anyone e
> ever do two coats of primer with an semi- aggressive 180 or 220 sand between the first and second prime coats? I learned this technique from a cabinet builder on how they finish new cabinetry.I started experimenting with this on oak doors and found I could bury a whole lot of the grain with this method, however.... That's also when I started running into problems with cratering or what appeared to be solvent pop.
> 
> I'm still in the middle of experimenting to determine if it was the sand paper I was using (Norton 3x which is stearated) or something to do with the technique, the primer (Smart Prime), or the top coat (Scuff-x). I've got a nice empty job this week I will hopefully be able to re-create and troubleshoot the problem.
> ...


I did two coats of primer on the cabs, and sanded in between primer coats with Festool Granat 180, but did not sand between the primer and the topcoat. The primer coat pictured was the second coat, and that left that to level out (as shown).

FWIW- Zinnser said it was okay to topcoat the primer after one hour, and the topcoat and primer are meant to dry together. However, I waited overnight to spray topcoat. I sprayed two topcoats 4 hours apart, at 65 degrees and around 30% humidity.

Have you confirmed that smartprime and scuff X are compatible.They test their products with a lot of manufactures paints, and it would be one way to eliminate one thing. if you detail your process it would be really informative for some of us, and you might get some good feedback about the solvent pop.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> I did two coats of primer on the cabs, and sanded in between primer coats with Festool Granat 180, but did not sand between the primer and the topcoat. The primer coat pictured was the second coat, and that left that to level out (as shown).
> 
> FWIW- Zinnser said it was okay to topcoat the primer after one hour, and the topcoat and primer are meant to dry together. However, I waited overnight to spray topcoat. I sprayed two topcoats 4 hours apart, at 65 degrees and around 30% humidity.
> 
> Have you confirmed that smartprime and scuff X are compatible.They test their products with a lot of manufactures paints, and it would be one way to eliminate one thing. if you detail your process it would be really informative for some of us, and you might get some good feedback about the solvent pop.


I posted this a while back when it first came up so apologies to anyone who's heard this before..

I haven't confirmed with the manufacturers, but I've been using them for the last couple years in tandem with no problems, around 20 cabinet sets or so. The problems arose just recently when I started double priming and sanding to 180/220 in between prime coats.

The funny thing is the second prime coat looks just great, no problems. It's only after the top coat goes on that the problems begin. And you can't just sand them out and respray. The small craters or bubbles return in the same spot unless you sand all the way down to bare wood and start over.. if I re-prime and recoat without doing any crazy sanding between coats, the problem won't come back. That's why I think it's something related to either the sandpaper or just the process of sanding the smart Prime hard and maybe grinding it into the wood uncured?? I have no idea but that's my latest theory.

I've pretty much ruled out recoat times as I've given primed doors anywhere from 1 to 72 hours before spraying top coat. I thought too much extender might have been the problem but ruled that out to when spraying un-thinned product and still having problems. I'm now planning on repeating the process with different sandapers, and I'm hoping the different sandpapers will yield different results so I can pinpoint the problem.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> I came across a few of your posts when looking up spraying wb with HVLP.
> 
> I’m not ready to give up yet… I used less than a quart to prime the doors/drawers for this job. I can’t see a scenario where that would make sense with an airless. I also didn’t have to put up a spray booth, and clean-up took about 10 minutes. I’m motivated to find a way (misguided though it may be).


It's a bit of a stretch but in the past I've gotten two coats on a front door out of a quart using just a 6-foot whip hooked up to the airless.. you look like kind of an idiot but it does get the job done.😅


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

are you familiar with the concept of a dust coat? Have you tried that to alleviate the solvent pop issue?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> are you familiar with the concept of a dust coat? Have you tried that to alleviate the solvent pop issue?


Is that the same thing as a fog coat im guessing? I use that on garage doors. I haven't tried that on a smooth surface though. I would be worried that it would be too orange peel-ish on a smoother surface, or does the following coat melt into it?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Not to hijack the thread but since we're talking about sanding primer ...does anyone e
> ever do two coats of primer with an semi- aggressive 180 or 220 sand between the first and second prime coats? I learned this technique from a cabinet builder on how they finish new cabinetry.I started experimenting with this on oak doors and found I could bury a whole lot of the grain with this method, however.... That's also when I started running into problems with cratering or what appeared to be solvent pop.
> 
> I'm still in the middle of experimenting to determine if it was the sand paper I was using (Norton 3x which is stearated) or something to do with the technique, the primer (Smart Prime), or the top coat (Scuff-x). I've got a nice empty job this week I will hopefully be able to re-create and troubleshoot the problem.
> ...


What you are experiencing is solvent entrapment. 2K urethane primers basically fully alleviate that issue. Stain blocking, grain filling, sands to powder and you can lay it on 8-10mils


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Is that the same thing as a fog coat im guessing? I use that on garage doors. I haven't tried that on a smooth surface though. I would be worried that it would be too orange peel-ish on a smoother surface, or does the following coat melt into it?


I did a few of the doors in the first coat using a "dust coat", sometime called a "tack coat", maybe a "fog coat". I did not notice a difference either way as far as the final texture. It seems to be done frequently with HVLP, as it was mentioned numerous times when I was preparing for this project. Was just throwing it out there as something that might be worth a try, as it's not much extra work. I put on a _very thin_ dusting on each door, and came back five minutes later and sprayed a full coat and let dry.

*The other thing to check is dry time. I think Smart Prime may create solvent pop issues when trying to spray primer and two coats in one day. I ran into it recently when I tried to fast track a product in one day.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> What you are experiencing is solvent entrapment. 2K urethane primers basically fully alleviate that issue. Stain blocking, grain filling, sands to powder and you can lay it on 8-10mils


Does BM carry anything like that.? I'm assuming your talking about your Centurion product again..?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Does BM carry anything like that.? I'm assuming your talking about your Centurion product again..?


Benjaminmoore does not make anything like the centurion 1107 primer. enviorlak, renner, ilva, Melesi amazing stuff. ICA has waterbased polyester non toxic and made from bacterial and other renewable sources. No one in the US has anything like this.

@Holland this isn't a plug for any particular product. The italian stuff really is 10-20 years ahead of whatever we have available in the US. Centurion, Enviorlak and others are just imitating what's available coming out of italy...


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> What you are experiencing is solvent entrapment. 2K urethane primers basically fully alleviate that issue. Stain blocking, grain filling, sands to powder and you can lay it on 8-10mils


I get more curious about these every time I see them mentioned. Is that the 1107 centurion you've mentioned? Is this also available in 1K? The hazards of 2K make me a little hesitant for not only me and my employees but the clients, as I spray on site.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Benjaminmoore does not make anything like the centurion 1107 primer. enviorlak, renner, ilva, Melesi amazing stuff. ICA has waterbased polyester non toxic and made from bacterial and other renewable sources. No one in the US has anything like this.
> 
> @Holland this isn't a plug for any particular product. The italian stuff really is 10-20 years ahead of whatever we have available in the US. Centurion, Enviorlak and others are just imitating what's available coming out of italy...


I'm not a big Sherwin-Williams guy, but on a job for a friend of mine he provided the material, it was Sherwood primer and Sayerlack topcoat. Is this similar to a 1K/2k product? It was really thin, dried super fast and was tough as Nails. The only downside was that it was pretty runny.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> @Holland this isn't a plug for any particular product. The italian stuff really is 10-20 years ahead of whatever we have available in the US. Centurion, Enviorlak and others are just imitating what's available coming out of italy...


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> I get more curious about these every time I see them mentioned. Is that the 1107 centurion you've mentioned? Is this also available in 1K? The hazards of 2K make me a little hesitant for not only me and my employees but the clients, as I spray on site.


As I mentioned SW, PPG, BM don't make anything like these products sayerlak inluded. The 1107 is only a 2K isocyanate. If you want a bomb proof waterborne 1K primer the only one I've even heard of is from ICA and you have to order it from italy.

@Holland I havn't worn a suit in maybe a decade. As you often seem to suggest I don't make money repping for some obscure italian company you've never heard of. Buy a plane ticket to italy if you don't believe me.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> As I mentioned SW, PPG, BM don't make anything like these products sayerlak inluded. The 1107 is only a 2K isocyanate. If you want a bomb proof waterborne 1K primer the only one I've even heard of is from ICA and you have to order it from italy.
> 
> @Holland I havn't worn a suit in maybe a decade. As you often seem to suggest I don't make money repping for some obscure italian company you've never heard of. Buy a plane ticket to italy if you don't believe me.


.
Gotcha, thanks!


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> As I mentioned SW, PPG, BM don't make anything like these products sayerlak inluded. The 1107 is only a 2K isocyanate. If you want a bomb proof waterborne 1K primer the only one I've even heard of is from ICA and you have to order it from italy.
> 
> @Holland I havn't worn a suit in maybe a decade. As you often seem to suggest I don't make money repping for some obscure italian company you've never heard of. Buy a plane ticket to italy if you don't believe me.


Why would I order a product from Italy for use on cabinets I am working on today? 
Not helpful at all, and distracts from original questions.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Almost every post you made in this thread mentions a product you sell. wtf


I don't carry or have any affiliation with enviorlak, renner, milesi, target coatings etc but I will absolutely tell you they are better and more user friendly than whatever you are currently using and by a significant margin. No one is paying me to come on here and tell you about this stuff either I'm 100% independent and choose to carry whatever product I believe are the best. I also don't have any affiliation with centurion other than I bought some of their product to have on my shelf and only after I found out shops were just ordering this stuff in from another state. If some other brand came along that I like better I would carry them instead.

70% of my gross sales come from BM products so believe me If BM made any product like these I would have their version and not carry any other brands in fact BM would pay me a sizable kickback to not carry other brands but I do anyway because quite frankly there is better stuff out there.

So yeah that's my 2 cents on the matter. You don't know what you don't know I suppose.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I don't carry or have any affiliation with enviorlak, renner, milesi, target coatings etc but I will absolutely tell you they are better and more user friendly than whatever you are currently using and by a significant margin. No one is paying me to come on here and tell you about this stuff either I'm 100% independent and choose to carry whatever product I believe are the best. I also don't have any affiliation with centurion other than I bought some of their product to have on my shelf and only after I found out shops were just ordering this stuff in from another state. If some other brand came along that I like better I would carry them instead.
> 
> 70% of my gross sales come from BM products so believe me If BM made any product like these I would have their version and not carry any other brands in fact BM would pay me a sizable kickback to not carry other brands but I do anyway because quite frankly there is better stuff out there.
> 
> So yeah that's my 2 cents on the matter. You don't know what you don't know I suppose.


I appreciate your expertise, but they could certainly be more helpful.

On the whole, comments seem to take aim at whatever product I happen to be using at the time. As to "not being paid to be on here" (to say nothing of bias), that coming from a vendor promoting products on a professional painting site.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> I appreciate your expertise, but it could certainly be more helpful. On the whole, comments seem to take aim at whatever product I happen to be using at the time. As to not being paid to be on here (to say nothing of bias), how many here have been sold product?


I'm here of my own free will just trying to save you a headache. Only brought up these other products as you don't feel comfortable thinning past manufacturer recommendations which is understandable.

Sold to on PT? only yourself and @stelzerpaintinginc. whom contacted me regarding some EJ brushes which I sold to you both at my wholesale cost eg zero markup and I paid for up front. Basically I bought some brushes out of pocket, mailed them to you and had you pay me back.

BTW I may decide to not carry EJ anymore as they have been acquired by masco corportation (Behr)


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Finished product. Thanks to those who offered helpful advice.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> "save me a headache"? Please.
> brushes 'you' approached me about, the same as the tape you tried pushing on me. Just back off about the products on my posts, not interested.


Good luck. Thin your paint.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Here is some mooreglo we sprayed on screen doors from an old thread. We hit them with a block sponge, red oxide primer, buff with a worn sponge, blow dust then fog coat mooreglo, buff with sponge then one good coat mooreglo thinned about 40% and shot with a #3 graco edge II plus


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## thepm4 (May 18, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I'm also curious about the Envirolak products. They are manufactured in Ontario. I assume the w200 is spray only? And can be applied over existing finishes? Or are their products also bushable?
> [/QUOTE
> .....I know the W200 is brushable and roll-able.
> I am going to brush and roll cabinet boxes on my current project.
> Hoping that the E9000 acts like a more opaque Stix.


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## Forest Dan (12 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Here is some mooreglo we sprayed on screen doors from an old thread. We hit them with a block sponge, red oxide primer, buff with a worn sponge, blow dust then fog coat mooreglo, buff with sponge then one good coat mooreglo thinned about 40% and shot with a #3 graco edge II plus


That looks really nice. You got a video for that ?


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I've been spraying Advance through a stage-4 sprayer from Spray Fine and a siphon-fed gun with a 1.3 tip. I am a cabinet maker and not really a painter. I didn't know that spraying waterborne paint should be a challenge. I just kept adding a bit of water until it sprayed out "wet" and leveled. I've been getting a very nice finish. 

I don't know the percentage but I am adding 2 ounces of water to each filling of the gun. It wets out nicely and levels nicely. Apparently, I was too stupid to know this was a problem (and it has not been one); I am only learning about that now.

As an aside, I had a cat when I was in college. I taught it to sit, to lie down, and to come on command. A girlfriend said to me, "You can't train a cat", and I replied, "Now you tell me." 😀 

So now I learn that spraying waterborne is a problem. Now you tell me. 😀


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Forest Dan said:


> That looks really nice. You got a video for that ?


I do not have videos though I have thought about starting an instagram to post on...


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I've been spraying Advance through a stage-4 sprayer from Spray Fine and a siphon-fed gun with a 1.3 tip. I am a cabinet maker and not really a painter. I didn't know that spraying waterborne paint should be a challenge. I just kept adding a bit of water until it sprayed out "wet" and leveled. I've been getting a very nice finish.
> 
> I don't know the percentage but I am adding 2 ounces of water to each filling of the gun. It wets out nicely and levels nicely. Apparently, I was too stupid to know this was a problem (and it has not been one); I am only learning about that now.
> 
> ...


lmao that's how we do it too. swap a large nozzle 1.5mm at least though


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

And I will say, if you haven’t tried the Lenmar wb. 200 undercoater that Coco recommends, you should. Sprays great through HVLP right out of the can and sands to a powder. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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