# Can you do the job for $100 less?



## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

I looked at a painted over popcorn ceiling removal job last week. Sq Ft was 432. I priced it for removal, painting and supplying paints / all materials @ $1,400.

HO calls me up and says, "we want to hire you", "but we got a price of $1,200 from another contractor", "we will give you the job if you can do the work for $1,300". 

I told her, "my price is firm". So I get an email today stating, "we have deceided to go with the 1200 dollar job thank you for your time and cnsideration"! -- misspelled words are theirs.

Any feedback? :jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Feedback?


Try to resist laughing at them when you get a call in a couple of weeks saying the other guy f-ed up and they want you to finish.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

You lost the job over $100. I stand firm by my prices as well but would not email back "price is firm". It leaves a bad taste. Most times people will appreciate a firm, "no" and go with you anyway. These people unfortunately felt, for whatever reason, you were not worth $200 more.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> I looked at a painted over popcorn ceiling removal job last week. Sq Ft was 432. I priced it for removal, painting and supplying paints / all materials @ $1,400.
> 
> HO calls me up and says, "we want to hire you", "but we got a price of $1,200 from another contractor", "we will give you the job if you can do the work for $1,300".
> 
> ...


Can we? Yes. Would we? Probably not, unless the cupboards were bare. 

I've long been suspicious about those prices from "other contractors". First, we've encountered some clients who seem to make them up just for bargaining purposes. Secondly, without seeing detailed specifications, I assume the other bidder will be cutting corners wherever he can, fewer coats, lower quality materials, etc. 

IMHO, you were right to stick to your guns, although, as Ken pointed out, the way you phrase that can have a big impact. There are plenty of possible unpleasant surprises involved in a project like this: sometimes we been able to stride along (in stilts) with a taping knife and a container, leaving a surface ready to prime. Other times, it's been hours of overhead work leaving us with a ceiling that needs tons of repairs and re-taping.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

The word "removal" Will never get a discount from me, regardless of what we are removing. Most times when that word is in a scope of work I provide, it is not a job I am particularly looking forward to. So no, I Will not give you a discount to do something I don't enjoy doing, just because you asked me to.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> Feedback?
> 
> 
> Try to resist laughing at them when you get a call in a couple of weeks saying the other guy f-ed up and they want you to finish.


I don't think that^ happens as much as we would like to believe. And in this particular instance, $200.00 dollars wasn't going to tilt the level of quality for better or worse IMO. Fact is, some painters are faster then others with equal skill sets. And as far as materials goes, one might prefer using a primer finish type paint, reducing the process, and still provide a similar if not equal result. Especially, given the advancements in paint and accessibility to all leading brands.

More then likely, this one was simply lost to a sales deficiency rather then to some sordid and underhanded act from a Hackabilly.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We never do removal types of jobs by a bid always T&M. I guess it depends on how busy you are, $100 isn't a whole lot to drop your price by but then again popcorn removal is hard work.

Bill I would agree with you if the other guy was under a grand, but $200 lower doesn't mean he will screw up the job, just he screwed himself out of a couple hundred more dollars.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> We never do removal types of jobs by a bid always T&M. I guess it depends on how busy you are, $100 isn't a whole lot to drop your price by but then again popcorn removal is hard work.
> 
> Bill I would agree with you if the other guy was under a grand, but $200 lower doesn't mean he will screw up the job, just he screwed himself out of a couple hundred more dollars.


It's either that, or assume the worst-case scenario: asbestos in the popcorn, multiple coats of paint on the popcorn, no primer under the popcorn, and a Level 1 finish on the GWB (fire-taped).


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

From my pov it depends. Did you sit home over the hundred bucks. If yes you should've took it. Hindsight being 20/20 of course. 
If you had work then it don't matter, and that is me assuming the OP to be a owner/operator.


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## oldccm (Jan 23, 2013)

Your price is your price. I'll barter once in a while, but if I hear the magic words ' you're 'x' amount higher than ____' my price becomes firm and I become even more detailed on what is and isn't included. Been down that street before, and this is just one of many warning signs.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

PressurePros said:


> *You lost the job over $100. I stand firm by my prices as well but would not email back "price is firm". It leaves a bad taste.* Most times people will appreciate a firm, "no" and go with you anyway. These people unfortunately felt, for whatever reason, you were not worth $200 more.


That is not what I actually said. I was figuratively speaking. 
I lost the job because I would not drop my price. They wanted me. 

*This was her email to me on Thursday:* "hi could you please call rich tomorrow at your convenience. he spoke to the owner of *** painting and powerwashing. we have a card with the price of the ceiling on it. rich can give you the details. i know rich will be here from 8 am on. thanks for your quick response. karen"

Honestly, she turned my off by telling me who the other contractor was and his price... Let him do the job...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> That is not what I actually said. I was figuratively speaking.
> I lost the job because I would not drop my price. They wanted me.
> 
> *This was her email to me on Thursday:* "hi could you please call rich tomorrow at your convenience. he spoke to the owner of *** painting and powerwashing. we have a card with the price of the ceiling on it. rich can give you the details. i know rich will be here from 8 am on. thanks for your quick response. karen"
> ...


I realize that this isn't a huge job, but that sounds like a truncated set of specifications.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

CJ-Newfield said:


> I looked at a painted over popcorn ceiling removal job last week. Sq Ft was 432. I priced it for removal, painting and supplying paints / all materials @ $1,400.
> 
> HO calls me up and says, *"we want to hire you",* "but we got a price of $1,200 from another contractor", "we will give you the job *if you can do the work for $1,300". *
> 
> ...


"I'd love to work for you and you've got yourself a deal on one condition, if it takes longer than expected would you be willing to pay me 7% more than my original bid of $1400? I've got a contract here ready for you to sign."

For the reasons outlined by other members here, popcorn ceilings aren't as straight forward as they appear, and the pitfalls can be costly. And it's not the most pleasant task in the world either.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't think that^ happens as much as we would like to believe. And in this particular instance, $200.00 dollars wasn't going to tilt the level of quality for better or worse IMO. Fact is, some painters are faster then others with equal skill sets. And as far as materials goes, one might prefer using a primer finish type paint, reducing the process, and still provide a similar if not equal result. Especially, given the advancements in paint and accessibility to all leading brands.
> 
> More then likely, this one was simply lost to a sales deficiency rather then to some sordid and underhanded act from a Hackabilly.


 
BTW - the other guy gave her a price on the back of his business card. 

*Estimate and last contact to HO:*

_Hi Karen,_

_After consideration, I will not be able to lower my price._
_I am one of the most detail oriented craftsman offering services of this nature and I deliver an excellent end result. My prices are also the actual price. There will be no price changes in the middle of the project and no surprises._

Here is a more detailed Scope of Work. 

*AREAS COVERED IN THIS AGREEMENT:* Family room

*SCOPE OF WORK*: removal of popcorn ceiling, preparation for painting, two coats of latex ceiling paint. 

*PROTECTION:* floors to be covered with 3ml plastic then line floor with contractor paper, walls to be draped with 1ml plastic. 

*TOUCH UP:* re-do the wall “cut in” were the wall meets the ceiling line. (customer to supply wall touch-up paint). 

*PREP WORK:* repair nail pops and minor imperfections, tape structural cracks.

*PAINTS USED:* Zinsser paint & primer in one

CONTRACTOR AGREES TO PROVIDE ALL LABOR, MATERIAL, AND EQUIPMENT (UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED IN THIS AGREEMENT) TO COMPLETE THE WORK DESCRIBED IN THIS AGREEMENT.

*TOTAL PRICE:* $1,400


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CJ-Newfield said:


> BTW - the other guy gave her a price on the back of his business card.


Sometimes that's all it takes. Sorry for your loss


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

CJ-Newfield said:


> I looked at a painted over popcorn ceiling removal job last week. Sq Ft was 432. I priced it for removal, painting and supplying paints / all materials @ $1,400.
> 
> HO calls me up and says, "we want to hire you", "but we got a price of $1,200 from another contractor", "we will give you the job if you can do the work for $1,300".
> 
> ...


Sorry to say but you guys are cheap....and your competitors suck.....In my days those jobs are the ones that hurt painters life span and I charged what I'm worth take it at a loss...move on I did those jobs for a cheap price and bit the bullet. ..until I learned so fyi just saying bow lot of prep!! Lots of variables instead of fast buck don't be a hack!!


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Sometimes that's all it takes. Sorry for your loss


I don't view it as a loss. But thanks...


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Sorry to say but you guys are cheap....and your competitors suck.....In my days those jobs are the ones that hurt painters life span and I charged what I'm worth take it at a loss...move on I did those jobs for a cheap price and bit the bullet. ..until I learned so fyi just saying bow lot of prep!! Lots of variables instead of fast buck don't be a hack!!


Did you test for asbestos....fyi


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Did you test for asbestos....fyi


Oh ya just some other painters lungs that works for you now yours.. nice ;-)


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Did you test for asbestos....fyi


No offense, but since this is a forum for professional painting contractors, isn't that an obvious first step in any acoustic ceiling removal process, particularly in pre 1978 homes?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Actually, I believe if its a suspected ACM (asbestos containing material) you can proceed with removal without testing, provided you have the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), the proper removal methods, and proper disposal with hazardous label. You probably have to also communicate the hazards to the home owner. I'm not certain any of that ^ is correct. I would test it first.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CJ-Newfield said:


> That is not what I actually said. I was figuratively speaking.
> I lost the job because I would not drop my price. They wanted me.
> 
> *This was her email to me on Thursday:* "hi could you please call rich tomorrow at your convenience. he spoke to the owner of *** painting and powerwashing. we have a card with the price of the ceiling on it. rich can give you the details. i know rich will be here from 8 am on. thanks for your quick response. karen"
> ...


Did you call Rich? :whistling2:


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

CApainter said:


> No offense, but since this is a forum for professional painting contractors, isn't that an obvious first step in any acoustic ceiling removal process, particularly in pre 1978 homes.


With all due respect I've been a painter by passion since 1987 I'm a union block Mason who fell on a job in 2008....fyi I know almost all of how to build a house from scratch....my uncle put a paint brush in my hands at 17... I don't know it all and have learned so much from this site in the past years of lurking. I'm a "professional & used to charge like it's a trade I love what I did ...due the math bklynboy1970 lol went from plaster walls too repairs of texturewalls" & popcorn ceilings here in fl...


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> Bill I would agree with you if the other guy was under a grand, but $200 lower doesn't mean he will screw up the job, just he screwed himself out of a couple hundred more dollars.


 More than likely he will tell them he needs to be paid in cash...His "profit" or "take home" @ $1200 is probably at least 1.5X what yours would be @ $1400.:yes:


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

CApainter said:


> No offense, but since this is a forum for professional painting contractors, isn't that an obvious first step in any acoustic ceiling removal process, particularly in pre 1978 homes?


I didn't even notice him mention test hmmmm....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bklynboy1970 said:


> With all due respect I've been a painter by passion since 1987 I'm a union block Mason who fell on a job in 2008....fyi I know almost all of how to build a house from scratch....my uncle put a paint brush in my hands at 17... I don't know it all and have learned so much from this site in the past years of lurking. I'm a "professional & used to charge like it's a trade I love what I did ...due the math bklynboy1970 lol went from plaster walls too repairs of texturewalls" & popcorn ceilings here in fl...


My comment was sort of rhetorical or sarcastical, whatever, but it wasn't meant to insult you. I'm sure you can paint circles around me, even though that would be really funny...Sorry! there i go again! ALAS!


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

CApainter said:


> My comment was sort of rhetorical or sarcastical, whatever, but it wasn't meant to insult you. I'm sure you can paint circles around me, even though that would be really funny...Sorry! there i go again! ALAS!


I love this site!! & didn't take it as dig but popcorn and texture walls used to be my specialty and it's a learned trade


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

CliffK said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> More than likely he will tell them he needs to be paid in cash...His "profit" or "take home" @ $1200 is probably at least 1.5X what yours would be @ $1400.:yes:


Only CJ-Newfield knows since he saw the business card and knows the other company. 
"owner of *** painting and powerwashing. we have a card with the price of the ceiling on it."

Again It's only $200 that is not a huge price difference at all. I have seen competitors estimates and there was thousands of dollars difference, those I would question about asking for cash.

We are a 2 person crew right now and I know for a fact we are cheaper than 3 other companies who have large crews. We never ask for cash all checks are written to our company. We bid against them a lot.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I like what my buddy SB says, if your going to lose a job lose it to thousands not hundreds


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I like what my buddy SB says, if your going to lose a job lose it to thousands not hundreds


Totally. We continue to keep our low price guarantee right on the homepage of our site.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> I realize that this isn't a huge job, but that sounds like a truncated set of specifications.


Lol. _There's_ an understatement!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Totally. We continue to keep our low price guarantee right on the homepage of our site.


Mine is stated next to free estimates. under the 800-wow1day number


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Mine is stated next to free estimates. under the 800-wow1day number


1 day is no longer appealing. A buddy of mine can do a house in like 6 minutes.


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## CustomDesignCoatings (Jun 2, 2011)

CJ-Newfield said:


> BTW - the other guy gave her a price on the back of his business card. Estimate and last contact to HO: Hi Karen, After consideration, I will not be able to lower my price. I am one of the most detail oriented craftsman offering services of this nature and I deliver an excellent end result. My prices are also the actual price. There will be no price changes in the middle of the project and no surprises. Here is a more detailed Scope of Work. AREAS COVERED IN THIS AGREEMENT: Family room SCOPE OF WORK: removal of popcorn ceiling, preparation for painting, two coats of latex ceiling paint. PROTECTION: floors to be 16,853.75 with 3ml plastic then line floor with contractor paper, walls to be draped with 1ml plastic. TOUCH UP: re-do the wall “cut in” were the wall meets the ceiling line. (customer to supply wall touch-up paint). PREP WORK: repair nail pops and minor imperfections, tape structural cracks. PAINTS USED: Zinsser paint & primer in one CONTRACTOR AGREES TO PROVIDE ALL LABOR, MATERIAL, AND EQUIPMENT (UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED IN THIS AGREEMENT) TO COMPLETE THE WORK DESCRIBED IN THIS AGREEMENT. TOTAL PRICE: $1,400


I don't think your response or the fact that you are holding to your price is out of line. If I may offer a piece of advice it may be to follow the "feel, felt, found" response method. 

Karen,

I would like to thank you for taking the time to meet with me the other day and discuss your project needs. Attached you will find a detailed proposal for the work we discussed. 

I want you to know that as a homeowner myself, I understand how you feel about getting the most out of your money. We have had many satisfied customers who felt the same way you did in relation to the price for the scope of work involved; however what they found was the extra time, protective measures, and quality of work were well worth the investment. 

In order to deliver the professional results I know you want, I will be unable to lower my proposal price; however, I would be happy to discuss options to meet your budget. Please feel free to contact me at your connivence with questions or concerns. 

Respectfully,

Again I think your response if fair, just offering a thought.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

The more time I get under my belt the less I give a chit about lost bids. Advice to fellow newbs... when loosing a bid, quickly think it over and walk on. I use to dwell on lost bids for days. It's a very dangerous mindset to second guess your estimates. Desperately wanting to close every submitted bid is a bad for business.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MIZZOU said:


> The more time I get under my belt the less I give a chit about lost bids. Advice to fellow newbs... when loosing a bid, quickly think it over and walk on. I use to dwell on lost bids for days. It's a very dangerous mindset to second guess your estimates. Desperately wanting to close every submitted bid is a bad for business.


But apparently it is temporarily good for self esteem. It's important to feel good about ones self.


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> Only bklynboy1970 knows since he saw the business card and knows the other company.
> "owner of *** painting and powerwashing. we have a card with the price of the ceiling on it."
> 
> Again It's only $200 that is not a huge price difference at all. I have seen competitors estimates and there was thousands of dollars difference, those I would question about asking for cash.....
> ...


Lol ...thread started the wrong way anyway btw...Price talking is a nono!!!  just saying..l


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

MIZZOU said:


> The more time I get under my belt the less I give a chit about lost bids. Advice to fellow newbs... when loosing a bid, quickly think it over and walk on. I use to dwell on lost bids for days. It's a very dangerous mindset to second guess your estimates. Desperately wanting to close every submitted bid is a bad for business.


Well put, MIZZOU. 

An old painter that I learned a lot from told me not to worry about the jobs that I don't get..... those couldn't hurt me.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Lol ...thread started the wrong way anyway btw...*Price talking is a nono!!!*  just saying..l


Sorry son, this thread was not a pricing question thread. I could care less what anyone else here would charge, they didn't bid on the job.

No no's are as follows;
- How much should I charge?
- What is the going rate?
- What would you charge to do this job?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> No offense, but since this is a forum for professional painting contractors, isn't that an obvious first step in any acoustic ceiling removal process, particularly in pre 1978 homes?


Certainly would be for us.

As for the price difference, I just ask them to be sure to compare apples to apples.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

MIZZOU said:


> The more time I get under my belt the less I give a chit about lost bids. Advice to fellow newbs... when loosing a bid, quickly think it over and walk on. I use to dwell on lost bids for days. It's a very dangerous mindset to second guess your estimates. Desperately wanting to close every submitted bid is a bad for business.


I hear what you are saying and I agree with you.
However, I posted this thread because this case was a litte odd to me. 
Women calls me and tells me she wants me to do the job, leaves the other painters name and price on my voicemail, and asks me *on my voicemail*, if I can do the job giving her $100 off, which is $100 higer than the low bidder.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

bklynboy1970 said:


> Lol ...thread started the wrong way anyway btw...Price talking is a nono!!!  just saying..l


Sorry I put your name by mistake. I did fix my error.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Actually, I believe if its a suspected ACM (asbestos containing material) you can proceed with removal without testing, provided you have the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), the proper removal methods, and proper disposal with hazardous label. You probably have to also communicate the hazards to the home owner. I'm not certain any of that ^ is correct. I would test it first.


I was in the asbestos removal business (as an employee) some 30+ years ago.

These days it's lead paint that's the new "in vogue" hazard to be dealt with. 

I guess in about 10 or 20 years, the old glycol tint based paints will be the new worry.

And then, after I'm dead and buried, my kids and grandkids will be warned about the hazards of the _old_ Gennex tint systems.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I don't think there's anything wrong with negotiating price with a prospective client. You probably already have over $100 invested in bidding the job anyways. If I needed the work and there was any profit to be made, then it would have probably agreed. I actually would have probably countered with a $50 discount offer. Of course, if I was booked, then it would be a thanks, but no thanks situation.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I personally would have said yes. If $100 less on a job is going to hurt me I'm doing something wrong. 

I had a guy that I gave him a price of $1,850 for a job and was asking me what do we need to do to make it $1,000. I said I could do it for $1,800 but nothing less.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

The problem I have with situations like this is that I don't really understand where people get the idea that it is even appropriate to ask contractors to match other contractors bids. In my mind, it's rude. I don't want to work for rude people unless I am desperate for cash and it's a red flag. If someone has the balls to ask you to lower your price, what other things might they develop the courage to ask you after you are working in their home?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Carl said:


> The problem I have with situations like this is that I don't really understand where people get the idea that it is even appropriate to ask contractors to match other contractors bids. In my mind, it's rude. I don't want to work for rude people unless I am desperate for cash and it's a red flag. If someone has the balls to ask you to lower your price, what other things might they develop the courage to ask you after you are working in their home?


Why, what is the worst that can happen? NO. If a simple 4 sec question can save you a 100 bucks then why not?

Same thing at car dealers, swap meets and a million other events. It's called Negotiating... 

Pat


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

...............And the call could have gone like this ......._Owner_

"we want to hire you", "but we got a price of $1,200 from another contractor", "we will give you the job if you can do the work for $1,300"

_You_

"Thank you so much for the call back. Just so we are both on the same page, you said you would like to go with us is that correct?" _(that might be the end of it but probably not)_ Just say nothing till they answer the question.

_Owner_

"Yes we would like to go with you. But we got another quote and it was $200 cheaper" Can you come down on your price $100"

_You_

"Ok, so you would like me to give you a discount before giving me the approval to start is that right?" 

_Owner_

"Yes"

_You_

"In my business I don't mark up my price so I can latter mark it down but I apply a $50 discount if your prepared to give me the approval on that job today"

_Owner_

"Ok sold"


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

Just to add to that................$50 or $100 off is cheaper than getting a new customer and quote another job to make up the loss of this one.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

For $100 off I'd bite simply because of the time already invested in it. Who knows, losing $100 could have cost you $1000's on referrals and repeat business down the road.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

The nature of the project would have been the main reason I wouldn't want to drop my price, though many of the suggestions for doing so are valid.

Hopefully you've got the Planex in your corner on projects like this.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> The nature of the project would have been the main reason I wouldn't want to drop my price, though many of the suggestions for doing so are valid. Hopefully you've got the Planex in your corner on projects like this.


So true. Popcorn that hasn't been painted is a piece of cake, painted popcorn not so much.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

If I was willing to accept less based on the premise that an equally exceptionally contractor had bid the same project lower I would at least ask for a copy of the other contractors estimate. That way you weed out the BSers and you can see how your competition does things. Lots of big companies price match but not one of them takes the customers word for it.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

MIZZOU said:


> So true. Popcorn that hasn't been painted is a piece of cake, painted popcorn not so much.


I think this job is the painter's equivalent of "buying a pig in a poke". While I'd be strongly inclined NOT to drop the price, I would probably consider it with a revised proposal that included a concealed conditions clause to cover additional repairs that might become necessary once the GWB is exposed.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

It's a $100 FFS.
Personally, I'm annoyed when a small job 'requires' a massive dog and pony show proposal. Let's bleed even more margin out of this piss ant job that I'll regret scheduling when things are really rocking!

For all we know the other guy pulled a Planex out of his van, showed the HO a youtube of it in action and clearly defined the project using, you know, spoken words. The way things were done before contractors debated the meaning of shoe lace color for estimates.

Once I've committed to providing a quote/pursuing a job I'm not going to sweat a minor discount like this. Hundred*s* of dollars off is an issue, $100 is not.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> For $100 off I'd bite simply because of the time already invested in it. Who knows, losing $100 could have cost you $1000's on referrals and repeat business down the road.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


That seems like a textbook case of the "sunk cost" or "Concorde" fallacy, the idea that we make the decision to continue with a project because of the time/effort/money that we've already put into it.

As far as the second point, it's been our experience that, to put it bluntly, cheap clients have cheap friends. It's nice to have clients help spread the word about your company, but not so nice when they also assure their friends that you can be convinced to work for less.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Sorry for your loss


When I see this line on facebook, it always ends up someone's dog or hamster died.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

So... let me get this straight so I don't have to reread all 57 posts.

Some of you would and some of you wouldn't?


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## MSJ Painting (Jan 27, 2013)

Bender said:


> So... let me get this straight so I don't have to reread all 57 posts.
> 
> Some of you would and some of you wouldn't?


Both sides had pretty valid points. I learn a lot more reading through the threads most of the time. Lots of awesome ideas from a lot of different business models. Thank you all for throwing your 2 cents in. I, for one, appreciate all the little tips for improvement and affirmations of my own good practices that I pick up in a lot of the subtext of these threads. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using PaintTalk.com mobile app


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Sorry. A plane is way to slow for removing popcorn. Wet it scrape it and get r dun


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Why bother giving a price if a homeowner can dictate what they pay anyways? 

I know i get asked time to time if that's the best I can do... And I just politely tell them I offer as reasonable of a price as I can while still trying to make a living. If they can't understand that, move on to the next and don't look back.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Some people like to negotiate. The good news is, you hold all the power to say yes or no.


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## Dbo (Nov 29, 2009)

I look at it this way, you were going to lose a $100 instead you lost $1300 and potential future client/clients and referrals. Sometimes you have to make a customer happy whatever it takes. I understand what you mean though, it makes you think wtf. 

I have done over the years and worked out pretty good for me. I don't make it a habit either. If they are really nice people and just want to feel like they got a deal. No problem but don't think it is going to happen on every job I do for you. haha! No different than working with someones budget in my opinion. I do quality work and use quality materials either way as long as it works out for both of us. Sometimes it is worth not making as much to build a future relationship with people.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Bender said:


> So... let me get this straight so I don't have to reread all 57 posts.
> 
> Some of you would and some of you wouldn't?


That pretty well sums it up.

BTW, good to see you again.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

MIZZOU said:


> The more time I get under my belt the less I give a chit about lost bids. Advice to fellow newbs... when loosing a bid, quickly think it over and walk on. I use to dwell on lost bids for days. It's a very dangerous mindset to second guess your estimates. Desperately wanting to close every submitted bid is a bad for business.


We used to have a saying , it's the ones I win I worry about  what did I miss or sh#t I'm the low bidder ....lol


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

MSJ Painting said:


> Both sides had pretty valid points. I learn a lot more reading through the threads most of the time. Lots of awesome ideas from a lot of different business models. Thank you all for throwing your 2 cents in. I, for one, appreciate all the little tips for improvement and affirmations of my own good practices that I pick up in a lot of the subtext of these threads.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using PaintTalk.com mobile app


Yep. Sometimes you get what you need.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

PatsPainting said:


> Same thing at car dealers, swap meets and a million other events. It's called Negotiating... Pat


Since when is a painters prices negotiable? 

I wouldn’t compare a skilled trade to a car salesmen. Car salesmen have a racket. They play the sales game with people. If a car’s sticker price is $25,999, they really want $24,000, so they knock $1,500 off and tell you, “we can give you the car for, $24,499” the customer says, “aww come on, you can do better than that”, Salesmen says, “let me go talk to the sales manager”, comes back, acting like you are taking the shirt off of his back, and says, “look, the best we can do is $24,200” customer is now dying to say yes, but plays it cool. Customer says, “come on, the dealer down the street can give it to me for $24,000”, salesmen acts like he is losing his shorts, and states, look, “I will give it to you for $24,000, take it of leave it”. Customer states, “ok, you have a deal”. Then the sales manager drags you in his office to sell you every extended warranty under the sun. Then by the time the deal is done, you end up paying the $27,999 for the car with extended warranties. Then there is the financing. The dealer often gets a percentage of the APR. 

Is this how you want customers to treat you, the skilled tradesmen? :blink:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> Since when is a painters prices negotiable?
> 
> I wouldn’t compare a skilled trade to a car salesmen. Car salesmen have a racket. They play the sales game with people. If a car’s sticker price is $25,999, they really want $24,000, so they knock $1,500 off and tell you, “we can give you the car for, $24,499” the customer says, “aww come on, you can do better than that”, Salesmen says, “let me go talk to the sales manager”, comes back, acting like you are taking the shirt off of his back, and says, “look, the best we can do is $24,200” customer is now dying to say yes, but plays it cool. Customer says, “come on, the dealer down the street can give it to me for $24,000”, salesmen acts like he is losing his shorts, and states, look, “I will give it to you for $24,000, take it of leave it”. Customer states, “ok, you have a deal”. Then the sales manager drags you in his office to sell you every extended warranty under the sun. Then by the time the deal is done, you end up paying the $27,999 for the car with extended warranties. Then there is the financing. The dealer often gets a percentage of the APR.
> 
> Is this how you want customers to treat you, the skilled tradesmen? :blink:



" Well, we've never done this before. But seeing as it's special circumstances and all, he says I can knock a hundred dollars off that Trucoat."

-Jerry Lundegaard "Fargo"


I see it as the difference between a middleman selling a commodity and a skilled tradesman being paid for performing a service. We've had some previous threads about whether a paint job is a product or a service.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Dbo said:


> I look at it this way, you were going to lose a $100 instead you lost $1300 and potential future client/clients and referrals. Sometimes you have to make a customer happy whatever it takes. I understand what you mean though, it makes you think wtf. I have done over the years and worked out pretty good for me. I don't make it a habit either. If they are really nice people and just want to feel like they got a deal. No problem but don't think it is going to happen on every job I do for you. haha! No different than working with someones budget in my opinion. I do quality work and use quality materials either way as long as it works out for both of us. Sometimes it is worth not making as much to build a future relationship with people.


I wouldn't say you lost $1300 instead of $100. That is where a lot of guys go wrong. 

You have to work for the $1400 and if they want the same job for $1300 done the same way then you just lost $100 profit. On a job this size that is probably a sizeable amount of the profit. Sure you lost the potential referrals but with that they would have told their friends you can be talked down in price and you set up a slippery slope for yourself. 

If you are starving for work and it's your first lead in weeks, sure eat it and do the job. If it is just another job you are pricing and you will need to schedule the work, knowing you have lots of other jobs to do, it is not worth it.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Dbo said:


> I look at it this way, you were going to lose a $100 instead you lost $1300 and *potential future client/clients and referrals.* Sometimes you have to make a customer happy whatever it takes. I understand what you mean though, it makes you think wtf.


I disagree! You can not worry about the potential repeat biz and referrals you may have gotten, from a job you didn't get. That is foolish. In most cases, when you lose the bid, it was due to price. Only thing is, most customers don't tell you that.

A month ago, i bid $4,200 on a job. The woman didn't get any other estimates, she said she wanted me. When I gave her the prices, she said, "is that the best you can do"? I said, "yes it is" the next week I started her job for $4,200.

Point is, it's a bluff game sometimes. You can't cave in on every estimate and knock a few hundred dollars off, at the HO request. Like the above, sometimes holding your ground pays off.

If you knock off $100 dollars for every "1 weeks worth a work", you will lose $5,000 annually.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Having read the original post and all the responses, I can't help but think this customer is nuts. I mean, if I were really wanting to make a deal I would say, "Hey, 2 of the bids are within $200 of each other, my budget for this project is $1,000. Can either of you bring your price down to an area within my budget?" What's the point of saying we have a bid of $1200, yours is $1400, but we are willing to pay you $1300 to do the work. Just not a very bright negotiating ploy which leads me to believe that leaving this one on the table is the right thing to do.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

AJ, you didn't get the job. Im sure you have another one lined up. Its all good. People suck. Whats it matter anymore anyway?


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Paradigmzz said:


> AJ, you didn't get the job. Im sure you have another one lined up. Its all good. People suck. Whats it matter anymore anyway?


The name is CJ


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

OK, well circling back to the original post. Would I give up $100 on a $1400 estimate? 

That is 7%.

Evidently I need to raise my prices because I don't have the luxury of such a prebate. Sorry, no, goodbye.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> Since when is a painters prices negotiable?


I would think since the caveman days. Look at this thread, some would negotiate some would not. It's a choice. I get it though, your personal feelings were hurt, your pride took a hit. It's business not personal. 

They thought you were worth a 100 bucks more then the guy who wrote the price on the card but not $200 more.

Again - All contracts are negotiable. It's just a matter of choice that's all.

Pat


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## eews (Apr 18, 2007)

That 7% could well be the profit that such a job generates, so by lowering your price $100, you've agreed to do the work for no profit!

Profit= sales-expenses ( including owners salary).

Companies need to cover all their costs, pay their employees and owner, and still make beyond that. Profits help lubricate the wheels so you can move forward; if you're not generating profit... well you get the idea.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

In theory, a job would have to go perfectly to maintain any net profit if you give up 7% at the start. One extra gallon of paint and a couple trips to the paint store can eat it up as well. Assuming the 10% is the typical net profit on a average paint job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We can try to tell ourselves things we tell ourselves to make ourselves believe that we'll make it up somewhere else, but...its just a matter of how much of a Santa Claus you want to be in the first quarter after Christmas. 

Bah. Humbug. 

I totally need to raise my prices to play poker at painttalk. 

These dudes roll so high that 7% is nada.

Tell you what?

How about on your next 10 estimates, when they reply that they would like to hire you...

At the last minute...

YOU TELL THE CUSTOMER THAT THERE IS ANOTHER CUSTOMER WHO WILL PAY YOU 7% MORE and you give them the chance to match it...

Good luck with that, philanthropists. 

I understand the psychology. Its easier to be a martyr and post online all day long about how much customers suck. 

Whose got the time?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> In theory, a job would have to go perfectly to maintain any net profit if you give up 7% at the start. One extra gallon of paint and a couple trips to the paint store can eat it up as well. Assuming the 10% is the typical net profit on a average paint job.


Dean

These guys are SICK estimators. They are tight, but they also build in fudge factors. 7% is not even worth discussing.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

You can make it up easy, ask to leave your sign in the yard for an extra week, use 1/2 mill plastic for the walls and floors, forget the freaking contact paper. 

You do the job, customer is happy, they call you back for something else, add a few hundred bucks to the price for the big question "Will you do it for less?" 

7%?? it's a 100 bucks, less then two billable hours for some guys here. I know you going to say "If you did that on every job it's going to be a million dollars you lost by the end of the year" Not going to happen. 

I would bet less then 5% of the jobs you bid on, people will ask for a better price. 

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> You can make it up easy, ask to leave your sign in the yard for an extra week, use 1/2 mill plastic for the walls and floors, forget the freaking contact paper.
> 
> You do the job, customer is happy, they call you back for something else, add a few hundred bucks to the price for the big question "Will you do it for less?"
> 
> ...



Yah, Pat. 

Pretty likely if you give them the discount they ask for on the first job, you can pad them up next time. :yes:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I do it on gas deliveries to the shop, other services like electricians. I do it at the gas station. I do it at the paint store. I even do it to my own employees. I just say hey, how about $100 off? People are cool with it, so I am. 

I toss Benjies around like a bigshot.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I do it on gas deliveries to the shop, other services like electricians. I do it at the gas station. I do it at the paint store. I even do it to my own employees. I just say hey, how about $100 off? People are cool with it, so I am.
> 
> I toss Benjies around like a bigshot.


I bet when you show up to a car dealer they love you. They know you will pay sticker price and not even bother to ask anything. "Well honey, that's what the sticker says, I don't want to offend anyone."

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> I bet when you show up to a car dealer they love you. They know you will pay sticker price and not even bother to ask anything. "Well honey, that's what the sticker says, I don't want to offend anyone."
> 
> Pat


Yah, I buy $1400 cars multiple times a year. 

Good analogy.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Yah, I buy $1400 cars multiple times a year.
> 
> Good analogy.


Just like your previous post how you take everything out of context...

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Just like your previous post how you take everything out of context...
> 
> Pat


True. I don't read so good.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I wonder what percentage of my potential customer base are car salesmen.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Carl said:


> I wonder what percentage of my potential customer base are car salesmen.


I think some people get confused as to whether they are buying or selling when they do a paint estimate. 

That is why, when in doubt, toss some Benjies around like you just don't care. 

Whether it is your money, or the clients, it is impressive to not care about such trivial matters. 

Newsflash...sometimes, savvy clients will actually do that nonsense to test you on how you value money. 

If you don't value your own, you sure as crimminy won't value theirs.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> I think some people get confused as to whether they are buying or selling when they do a paint estimate.
> 
> That is why, when in doubt, toss some Benjies around like you just don't care.
> 
> ...



Yep, sometimes they also ask to look at your teeth to see if you brush daily.

Pat


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> Yep, sometimes they also ask to look at your teeth to see if you brush daily.
> 
> Pat


I give them $100 every time they ask a question. Period. No questions asked.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

The fact that contractors get appalled if a potential client tries to renegotiate a small amount like $100.00 dollars IMO is silly. I understand that we are not a flea market where its common practice to bargain, but we do work in a trade with no set standards of pricing. The price variances from one paint company to another can range from several hundreds of dollars to even a couple of grand for the same job. The client has nothing what so ever to go on for what a paint job should cost. Their helpless on who they should chose. So for me personally, dropping a c note on a $1400.00 job wont break me in any way, shape, or form and in the end everybody makes out.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

100 posts for $100........


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Homeowners will exploit a painters self consciousness, in regard to the painter's awareness of being positioned on the lower end of the building trade stratus. Add to that the realization that painters are competing in one of the most saturated trade markets in the home improvement industry, it's no wonder painters are willing to negotiate while the homeowner is within a fish nets distance. Unless you are a hoidy toidy painting contractor with an exclusive clientele list, its feast or famine baby.

Is that true, or am I talking out of my gas hole?


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Homeowners will exploit a painters self consciousness, in regard to the painter's awareness of being positioned on the lower end of the building trade stratus. Add to that the realization that painters are competing in one of the most saturated trade markets in the home improvement industry, it's no wonder painters are willing to negotiate while the homeowner is within a fish nets distance. Unless you are a hoidy toidy painting contractor with an exclusive clientele list, its feast or famine baby.
> 
> Is that true, or am I talking out of my gas hole?


Most good painters that I have met in my days on this earth are not feasting or famining. I think the sucky ones are, or the ones that only paint apartments.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> OK, well circling back to the original post. Would I give up $100 on a $1400 estimate?
> 
> That is 7%.
> 
> Evidently I need to raise my prices because I don't have the luxury of such a prebate. Sorry, no, goodbye.


That was my point from the beginning.

My rates are fair.
Prospect of future work and good relationships aren't edible.
Phone might ring tomorrow with a real client who's willing to pay what I'm worth for a full interior and then I'm too busy doing your sorry arse popcorn ceiling.

Thanks but no thanks.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

PatsPainting said:


> I would think since the caveman days. Look at this thread, some would negotiate some would not. It's a choice. I get it though, your personal feelings were hurt, your pride took a hit. It's business not personal.
> 
> *They thought you were worth a 100 bucks more then the guy who wrote the price on the card but not $200 more.*
> 
> ...


Perhaps that's where the opportunity was missed....:blink:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> We can try to tell ourselves things we tell ourselves to make ourselves believe that we'll make it up somewhere else, but...its just a matter of how much of a Santa Claus you want to be in the first quarter after Christmas.
> 
> Bah. Humbug.
> 
> ...


Oh I like that one!!!:thumbup:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> I do it on gas deliveries to the shop, other services like electricians. I do it at the gas station. I do it at the paint store. I even do it to my own employees. I just say hey, how about $100 off? People are cool with it, so I am.
> 
> I toss Benjies around like a bigshot.


Now you're Ballin' on a National Scale!:thumbup:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Homeowners will exploit a painters self consciousness, in regard to the painter's awareness of being positioned on the lower end of the building trade stratus. Add to that the realization that painters are competing in one of the most saturated trade markets in the home improvement industry, it's no wonder painters are willing to negotiate while the homeowner is within a fish nets distance. Unless you are a *hoidy toidy painting contractor with an exclusive clientele* list, its feast or famine baby.
> 
> Is that true, or am I talking out of my gas hole?


You rang?

You can either raise the bar or lower it, the choice is entirely yours.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

PatsPainting said:


> I would think since the caveman days. Look at this thread, some would negotiate some would not. It's a choice. I get it though, your personal feelings were hurt, your pride took a hit. It's business not personal.
> 
> *They thought you were worth a 100 bucks more then the guy who wrote the price on the card but not $200 more.*
> 
> ...


*I have a different theroy.*

They were looking for the lowest price, but because they liked my presentation, they were willing to pay me $100 more than the low bid.


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## bklynboy1970 (Oct 8, 2013)

eews said:


> That 7% could well be the profit that such a job generates, so by lowering your price $100, you've agreed to do the work for no profit!
> 
> Profit= sales-expenses ( including owners salary).
> 
> Companies need to cover all their costs, pay their employees and owner, and still make beyond that. Profits help lubricate the wheels so you can move forward; if you're not generating profit... well you get the idea.


For that price one unforseen problem and you lost your arse...Thank them for not using you and move on, just saying


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

cdpainting said:


> We are a 2 person crew right now and I know for a fact we are cheaper than 3 other companies who have large crews. We never ask for cash all checks are written to our company. We bid against them a lot.


Does Teddy's work in your area. I always thought that company was local, but comes all the way from Haverhill, which is about an hour away. He does tons of jobs around here.


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## Repaintpro (Oct 2, 2012)

L O L..................I quoted a job (roof restoration) for a relation who was a car sales manager. I told him I would do the who job for cost price, no profit (good cousin and my boys need a few days to cover wages). So after I went thru the associated costs involved he asked me if I could do better on the price if he paid cash!.........they never give up!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

bklynboy1970 said:


> For that price one unforseen problem and you lost your arse...Thank them for not using you and move on, just saying


:thumbsup:

It doesn't take much of an unforeseen problem for this to run over. One hiccup for a one-man show and ,suddenly, you're having to go back for a third day. For two guys, that could mean going back for the second day. In either case, I don't see enough cushion there to cover the possible downside.

I know a lot of guys who figure it's more important to be busy than it is to make money, but we've got more interesting things to do if we just want to stay busy.


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## Dbo (Nov 29, 2009)

I see it both ways CJ. funny thing is you were upset enough to post about it and disagree on different outlooks on it. I think it bothers you enough that you are secretly kicking yourself in the ass for losing the bid over a hundo! haha. 

Like I said I have done it over the years but I don't get asked very often either. Maybe 2-3 times a year if that. If it was more and always agree to what they wanted that wouldn't be smart business. I choose myself to give discounts or gift cards to my potential clients or good clients that give me a lot of work and referrals. 

One of them is a couple that asked for $200 off the first job I did for them on a $1800 quote to match another contractors price. Said they wanted to hire me but wanted to see if I would lower the price. I asked to see the other quote and looked it over. Thought is was strange because it hadn't happen to me before but I gave it to them after making some adjustment to the project and have been doing work for them, friends and family for years. They have never asked again nor their friends and family. I have 5 clients I sent a $25 gift card from Menards to for the holidays as a thank you for their business and referrals! That $125 has not hurt me yet even if I was to not get anymore work or referrals from them. 

I look at it as an investment for potential future work and referrals. I spend more on advertising and get no results sometimes. I know a $100 won't hurt my business or I would be doing something wrong! We all run our businesses differently and look at things from a different point of view. 

Guess what I am saying is sometimes you got to think ahead of what the future may bring. Be positive and you never know what could come of it!


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Dbo said:


> I see it both ways CJ. funny thing is you were upset enough to post about it and disagree on different outlooks on it. I think it bothers you enough that you are secretly kicking yourself in the ass for losing the bid over a hundo! haha.


Dbo, I wasn't upset, I was annoyed. 

If you think this is the first time I encountered a HO trying to get me to compromise my price, or get a freebee from me, guess again. 

I have lost bids on jobs up to 25k. I don’t blink an eye to lost bids. And this $1,400 job was easily replaced with 6 others. 

Truth is, I am tired of people trying to get a freebee out of me - period!


Dbo said:


> Like I said I have done it over the years but I don't get asked very often either. Maybe 2-3 times a year if that. If it was more and always agree to what they wanted that wouldn't be smart business. I choose myself to give discounts or gift cards to my potential clients or good clients that give me a lot of work and referrals.
> One of them is a couple that asked for $200 off the first job I did for them on a $1800 quote to match another contractors price. Said they wanted to hire me but wanted to see if I would lower the price. I asked to see the other quote and looked it over. Thought is was strange because it hadn't happen to me before but I gave it to them after making some adjustment to the project and have been doing work for them, friends and family for years. They have never asked again nor their friends and family. I have 5 clients I sent a $25 gift card from Menards to for the holidays as a thank you for their business and referrals! That $125 has not hurt me yet even if I was to not get anymore work or referrals from them.
> I look at it as an investment for potential future work and referrals. I spend more on advertising and get no results sometimes. I know a $100 won't hurt my business or I would be doing something wrong! We all run our businesses differently and look at things from a different point of view.
> Guess what I am saying is sometimes you got to think ahead of what the future may bring. Be positive and you never know what could come of it!


Do you think I never caved in to a HO like this before? Guess again. 
Last time I gave a HO money off on a job, we wound up in Small Claims Court. No repeat biz, no referrals - just a lawsuit.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

We bid on a job the other day, an interior office space and garage NC. The wife liked our price and both Carly and myself. Her husband looked up an old price he had for a repaint of 2 rooms and told his wife no way would he pay our price. She had already confirmed colors which I told her I would call in and order. (The whole process took less than 24 hrs to write up and agree on) Plus we had to do most of it today if we planned on spraying.

We talked to her after her husband said no and came to a fair deal (which is pretty much exactly what we would have charged minus the trim work which we didn't end up doing yet). We got it done and she was very happy. She loved our work and said she will call us back to do more in the room once it's done. All said and done we are loosing around a hundred bucks off our original price.

There is another painter painting the exterior. I know his company and work well, he is good. But very over priced. We bid a lot against him, we don't have his over head so we come in cheaper 95% of the time. It's one of those weird situations that I'm sure some of us have been in and don't like it. But work is work.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

1) Don't touch popcorn
2) don't lose a job over $100.00


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Disagree. I can do many things. Negotiating my pay is not one of those things.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

I dont negotiate either, but I do recall a few really great customers who did negotiate and they turned out to be amazing people to work for.


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

cdpainting said:


> But very over priced.


This obviously isn't the case if he's booking work.
You are probably leaving money on the table quite often.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

dan-o said:


> This obviously isn't the case if he's booking work.
> You are probably *leaving money on the table* quite often.


That can be a sickening feeling.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I always leave a little wriggle room to adjust my price. Over estimate the cost of material, and the amount. If they think my price is outrageous, but like me I say I'll do it on T&M, and whatever is cheaper you pay. Only once had my price been more than on T&M.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> I always leave a little wriggle room to adjust my price. Over estimate the cost of material, and the amount. If they think my price is outrageous, but like me I say I'll do it on T&M, and whatever is cheaper you pay. Only once had my price been more than on T&M.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk



I hate the idea of T&M up to a limit. But you would still have to finish. 

It's a win win for the customer but what's the point of giving a price for them anyways. 

If the cap is too high they will reject it. So your basically still competing on price but have to have your hours watched? 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Painter-Aaron said:


> I hate the idea of T&M up to a limit. But you would still have to finish.
> 
> It's a win win for the customer but what's the point of giving a price for them anyways.
> 
> ...


I get it on paper, with the rate that I estimated for in the first place. I've only offered this about a dozen times, and only to repeat clients, or clients that I know will get me referrals. I watch my hours on every job. I track how long it takes me to do certain tasks, mark it down then go back and see what things worked best in different scenarios.

Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

journeymanPainter said:


> I get it on paper, with the rate that I estimated for in the first place. I've only offered this about a dozen times, and only to repeat clients, or clients that I know will get me referrals. I watch my hours on every job. I track how long it takes me to do certain tasks, mark it down then go back and see what things worked best in different scenarios.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk



Maybe for repeat clients that would be alright. I just find it a bit unfair for people to ask that. They want the chance to pay as little as possible without any risk of it going after. 

When I was getting my car fixed the mechanic asks me. By the hour or by the job. By the hour I'm on the hook for anything not going as planned by the job they are. There's a chance by the job id pay a bit more but in the end it's the added security. 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

When we do T&M work for new clients, we update them on a regular basis with the running total. For smaller jobs, that would be every day ; for bigger ones, every week. The keeps them apprised of the budget, and avoids end-of-the -project unpleasantness.

We didn't always do that, and it led to me eating a fair amount of crow, as well as some VERY expensive pizza.


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## nogg (Aug 23, 2007)

Oden said:


> From my pov it depends. Did you sit home over the hundred bucks. If yes you should've took it. Hindsight being 20/20 of course.
> If you had work then it don't matter, and that is me assuming the OP to be a owner/operator.


This


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

If you need to adjust a price for work or it works for you so be it. I have and still do adjust up and down pricing to keep crews busy and to land work if needed. Supply and demand, want and wish..


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Ramsden Painting said:


> If you need to adjust a price for work or it works for you so be it. I have and still do adjust up and down pricing to keep crews busy and to land work if needed. Supply and demand, want and wish..


Would having a basic square foot price help set a bar that you would absolutely never go under?


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> Does Teddy's work in your area. I always thought that company was local, but comes all the way from Haverhill, which is about an hour away. He does tons of jobs around here.


Pete sorry just saw this. I haven't heard of him. Are his vehicles lettered? I know there are some painters around here with no signage at all on their vehicles or jobsites.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

dan-o said:


> This obviously isn't the case if he's booking work.
> You are probably leaving money on the table quite often.


We don't have a crew his size nor his overhead so no we are not leaving money on the table. Plus he wouldn't work with the HO as where we did and she did some of the painting and prep herself.

I already know if he bids a job for 2 people we are right there with his prices. His whole crew he is higher priced. We have also lost jobs to him, he came in lower with a 2 person crew in the past.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> *We don't have a crew his size nor his overhead so no we are not leaving money on the table.* Plus he wouldn't work with the HO as where we did and she did some of the painting and prep herself.
> 
> I already know if he bids a job for 2 people we are right there with his prices. His whole crew he is higher priced. We have also lost jobs to him, he came in lower with a 2 person crew in the past.


If there are 10 painting companies with a ton of overhead, bidding on the same jobs as I (the little guy), I wouldn't worry about my overhead vs theirs. Regardless, I would try to price my jobs in the same ballpark as them.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I don't think that^ happens as much as we would like to believe. And in this particular instance, $200.00 dollars wasn't going to tilt the level of quality for better or worse IMO. *Fact is, some painters are faster then others with equal skill sets. And as far as materials goes, one might prefer using a primer finish type paint, reducing the process, and still provide a similar if not equal result. Especially, given the advancements in paint and accessibility to all leading brands.*
> 
> *More then likely, this one was simply lost to a sales deficiency* rather then to some sordid and underhanded act from a Hackabilly.


You have made a lot of blind assumptions. 

If you believe that every man that walks into a HO home, and presents a business card, is equal in knowledge & skill, and will produce a similar quality / end product, I guess you believe that the, "anyone can paint statement is accurate"?

Secondly, by trade, removal of popcorn ceilings is not actually a painters job. In the 90's, I was spraying on, popcorn ceilings, so I have a skill set that includes popcorn ceilings as one of my specialties. 

Thirdly, how can there have been a *sales deficiency,* if the customer was willing to pay me more for the job, than the other bid? 

When I go up against a lower bid, I don't have the same assumptions as you. 
- I assume that the guy is hungrier than I.
- I assume that the guy under bid the job.
- I assume that the guy will cut corners.
- I assume that the guy may try to change his price if he runs into a problem. 
- I assume that the guy will not provide the customer with the same end result.

The reality is, you don’t know what the other companies estimator is thinking or how much experience he has at estimating jobs. Estimating is a skill in itself, that is not taught in a class. The only school to learn how to estimate is “the school of hard knocks”.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I apologize in advance for my less then enthusiastic reply to the your issues with a comment I posted last month, but here goes, with all due respect.

Painters and painting contractors alike, are a dime a dozen. We are just slapping on simple paint after all. Heck, Suzy Homemaker's grandaddy could paint circles around any one of us, day in and day out, and he was a one armed pig farmer with a third grade education for crying out loud! I mean you can sell the home owner what you want, or you can sell them what they need. Apparently, the guy who writes contracts on the backs of business cards recognized her needs, and got the job.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I apologize in advance for my less then enthusiastic reply to the your issues with a comment I posted last month, but here goes, with all due respect.
> 
> *Painters and painting contractors alike, are a dime a dozen.* We are just slapping on simple paint after all. Heck, Suzy Homemaker's grandaddy could paint circles around any one of us, day in and day out, and he was a one armed pig farmer with a third grade education for crying out loud! I mean you can sell the home owner what you want, or you can sell them what they need. *Apparently, the guy who writes contracts on the backs of business cards recognized her needs, and got the job.*


*Correction, average painters are a dime a dozen.* If that is the class of painter you fall into, sorry to hear that. 

I never said the competitor wrote a contract on the back of a card. 
What I did say is that he wrote *his price* down on the back of a business card. Sometimes, a price on the back of a card, or a verbal price is all you need to get the job. On a small simple job, the fancy 10 contract means nothing to some customers, and a $100 savings means everything. So the only thing that is apparent, is the fact that you like to make assumption after assumption. 

On a small job, contractors often explain the Scope of Work verbally (remove popcorn - then paint), then write a price on the back of a business card. I am sure the day the work begins, they have the customer sign an agreement.

Thanks for you imput. :thumbsup:


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## A Better Painter (Jun 25, 2008)

The customer sometimes feels he is the driver with the whip and the painter is their mule. They are in actuality in need of being put in the back seat and told to sit down.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CJ-Newfield said:


> *Correction, average painters are a dime a dozen.* If that is the class of painter you fall into, sorry to hear that.
> 
> I never said the competitor wrote a contract on the back of a card.
> What I did say is that he wrote *his price* down on the back of a business card. Sometimes, a price on the back of a card, or a verbal price is all you need to get the job. On a small simple job, the fancy 10 contract means nothing to some customers, and a $100 savings means everything. So the only thing that is apparent, is the fact that you like to make assumption after assumption.
> ...


Thank you for your sympathy, assuming you are sincere.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> *Correction, average painters are a dime a dozen.* If that is the class of painter you fall into, sorry to hear that.
> 
> I never said the competitor wrote a contract on the back of a card.
> What I did say is that he wrote *his price* down on the back of a business card. Sometimes, a price on the back of a card, or a verbal price is all you need to get the job. On a small simple job, the fancy 10 contract means nothing to some customers, and a $100 savings means everything. So the only thing that is apparent, is the fact that you like to make assumption after assumption.
> ...


Boy, talk about assumptions....


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

CaPainter,

You have 2 painters come to your home to give you a price to paint 3 bedrooms.

Painter #1 pulls up in a 14 y/o pickup truck, wearing a pair of painters whites and gives you a verbal quote of $1,200 to do the work. He tells you he has 25 years exp., and has worked in the Brandywine development up the road from you, (500k homes). On the way out of your house, he notices that your son plays little league baseball and the two of you strike up a 15 min convo about the league. Painters leaves and you say, I’ll let you know my decision on Monday. Painters says, “thanks”, and shakes your hand. 

Painter #2 pulls up in a fully lettered 2014 Ford E150. He comes to your door wearing kakis and a collared shirt. This guy is salesmen of the year with great communication skills and a 4 year college degree. He opens up his briefcase, gives you a business card and brochure, then breaks out his laptop and printer and gives you an amazingly detailed contract, and on the 5th page is the price of $1,400. 

So now who do you hire? The 25 year exp., painter or the slick talking salesmen for an additional $200? 

If you decide to give the job to the 25 year exp painter, would you say that the salesmen for $200 higher failed or had some sort of sales deficiency? 

Who would you hire?


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Gough said:


> Boy, talk about assumptions....


I retract my statement. Never assume anything. But a will say it is safe to assume that most, decent contractors have enough sense and professionalism to put things in writing. 

Who knows what the competitor is doing? The only one who knows is the homeowner. If a HO is dumb enough to go with a verbal or vague contract, that is 100% negligence on their part. 

I for one never do verbal agreements. Too much room for a misunderstanding. Nothing worse than hearing a customer say, "I thought this, I thought that"... :blink:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

CJ-Newfield said:


> CaPainter,
> 
> You have 2 painters come to your home to give you a price to paint 3 bedrooms.
> 
> ...


I'd hire the briefcase to sell for me and the guy in whites to paint it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CJ,

If the point you're trying to make is that you provided the best sales presentation, and therefore shouldn't be viewed as having a "sales deficiency" just because the homeowner chose to go with someone cheaper, I have to ask, what qualifies you as having the better presentation other then your own perception?

You see, everyone has a perception. In the case of your misfortunate outcome with that homeowner, her perception was that either a hundred buck discount trumps the better sales pitch, or, her perception of the other guy fit her needs better. So apparently she perceived some sort of deficiency. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was one, but rather, she perceived it to be so. We all have deficiencies. Why do you think I'm just an average painter?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> I already know if he bids a job for 2 people we are right there with his prices. His whole crew he is higher priced.


I would think it would have been the opposite. The more guys you have the less your overhead becomes as it is dispersed out over more guys.

Pat


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

PatsPainting said:


> I would think it would have been the opposite. The more guys you have the less your overhead becomes as it is dispersed out over more guys.
> 
> Pat


Bingo. I wish the assumption of bigger company/bigger overhead would just fade from the minds of owner operators that justify lower pricing. 

Bigger company with more employees on a job means faster turnover time.. that means more jobs per year.. that means indirect costs spread over more jobs. Result = less overhead per job. More jobs also means more referrals and lead generation so that also balances. More crews means owner can meet his salary at a lower margin than if he/she were out painting with a limited time constraint. 

Bigger companies charge more because they can, not necessarily because they have to. Think about it. If I have seven crews out with a good lead generation machine going, I can undercharge just about every owner/operator out there and still make many multiples of their salary. Bigger overhead is a myth unless you are talking about being bloated with middle management and an ineffective sales force.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> CaPainter,
> 
> You have 2 painters come to your home to give you a price to paint 3 bedrooms.
> 
> ...


My experience has been that they hire the old guy with 40 years of experience who shows up wearing whites and driving a 20-year old pickup with no lettering. He'll be working on site with a small crew, most of whom have worked with him for years.

His bid is more than twice that of the young guy who shows up in a brand-new, fully-wrapped pickup and who gives a slick presentation and uses workers from a temp agency.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> My experience has been that they hire the old guy with 40 years of experience who shows up wearing whites and driving a 20-year old pickup with no lettering. He'll be working on site with a small crew, most of whom have worked with him for years.
> 
> His bid is more than twice that of the young guy who shows up in a brand-new, fully-wrapped pickup and who gives a slick presentation and uses workers from a temp agency.


Yup. And that old guy has had the same cell number for 20+ years and now that you're one of his old customers, he has your phone number saved in his phone. 

And when you call him, he answers his phone knowing who you are and of course he remembers you and the work that was done. He was there. :yes:


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

I bet the guy who wrote his price on a business card has asked for cash and would not declare it in his financial tax return. He is probably using cheap paint to save money.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Brian C said:


> I bet the guy who wrote his price on a business card has asked for cash and would not declare it in his financial tax return. He is probably using cheap paint to save money.


Not necessarily, Brian. I haven't had a signed contract in more years than I can remember. I don't use cheap paint and I report my income.


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> CaPainter, You have 2 painters come to your home to give you a price to paint 3 bedrooms. Painter #1 pulls up in a 14 y/o pickup truck, wearing a pair of painters whites and gives you a verbal quote of $1,200 to do the work. He tells you he has 25 years exp., and has worked in the Brandywine development up the road from you, (500k homes). On the way out of your house, he notices that your son plays little league baseball and the two of you strike up a 15 min convo about the league. Painters leaves and you say, I&#146;ll let you know my decision on Monday. Painters says, &#147;thanks&#148;, and shakes your hand. Painter #2 pulls up in a fully lettered 2014 Ford E150. He comes to your door wearing kakis and a collared shirt. This guy is salesmen of the year with great communication skills and a 4 year college degree. He opens up his briefcase, gives you a business card and brochure, then breaks out his laptop and printer and gives you an amazingly detailed contract, and on the 5th page is the price of $1,400. So now who do you hire? The 25 year exp., painter or the slick talking salesmen for an additional $200? If you decide to give the job to the 25 year exp painter, would you say that the salesmen for $200 higher failed or had some sort of sales deficiency? Who would you hire?


That's a tough comparison...good points though. They say to get 3 quotes though...
I have made my living because I'm showing up in a 7 year old lettered truck with whites, a company shirt, and 75% of the time with some paint on my hands, I try to make conversation unrelated to painting, then will follow up by sending a professional, detailed proposal. I come in at 1,300 (on the books) with all things equal and get the job, most likely making a higher profit margin than both would have. Homeowners have told me they gave me the job because the price was in the middle of the other two. 
In all honesty, I would prefer to be the guy in khakis, as my goal within the next 3 years is to be out of the bucket.
To the OP of the thread, I wouldn't come down 100.00 to get a job this time of year. In the winter months, that could very well be a different story.


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