# FLAT or MATTE



## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

I have never used a "matte" finish, what is the difference between matte and flat. I would have thought they mean the same thing. Matte is new (relatively) to paint finishes and I never got around to using it anywhere.


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Matte has a bit more of a sheen so it is not dead flat so it can resist scuff and mars a little better. S/W says their duration matte is scrubable, spelled that wrong, but I don't know many times you could really get after it. I used a lot of it on a project years ago but it was on ceilings.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

kmp said:


> Matte has a bit more of a sheen so it is not dead flat so it can resist scuff and mars a little better. S/W says their duration matte is scrubable, spelled that wrong, but I don't know many times you could really get after it. I used a lot of it on a project years ago but it was on ceilings.



That being the case, I'll not likely see a need for it in the future. If I want flat I want dead flat (touches up better than any sheen). The PPG eggshell is pretty matte IMO and for houses with kiddies I tend to favor it for scrub-ability. I rarely go a sheen above eggshell on anything.


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

Give duration matte a try. It’s sheen is certainly in a category by its self. I prefer dead flat for it’s touch up and imperfection hiding, but in the right circumstance it’s can be a very pleasing finish. On level 5 surface is the best, I like to apply with a 3/8 microfiber nap.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Matte is actually a European (French?) term for flat. So in Canada......does it mean a very slight sheen or does it actually mean dead flat? Quebec-dead flat maybe and everywhere else sheen? Who knows?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Dont use mattes on ceilings. Thats my advice. Pure Performance flat is more like a matte too. Its washable, with just a touch of sheen. It still touches up pretty good, but I woulnt use it on any well lit ceilings. It'd be good for bathroom ceilings though.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

using the word matte means you can charge more to "designer" clients


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## BeerbowerPainting (Jul 31, 2018)

Woodco said:


> Dont use mattes on ceilings. Thats my advice.


I agree. On a job with my old boss, we had a 25ft ceiling that the HO wanted to be painted with a matte finish. It was a nightmare. We tried spraying and back rolling, just rolling, just spraying, ended up doing 4 coats and it still had an uneven sheen and some lines. It didn't help that there was a double row of windows on two of the walls so you had a massive amount of natural light shining on the ceiling...


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## dwallon60 (Apr 22, 2018)

It used to be that I thought "matte" was just a designer term and it could very well be. The thing I find that SW and BM version of matte is like 8-10 degrees of sheen versus most flats that are 0-5. Ceilings would certainly be no bueno.


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

I use matte finish on walls most of the time. matte is my choice of sheen for walls, because it is more washable than flat, and touches up well. I only use eggshell if a client insists it be used. We also occasionally do glossy accent walls. We only use flat on ceilings, with the rare exception of glossy ceilings for certain decorators. 

Most people can't see the difference in sheen with matte compared to flat on walls, unless you touch up one with the other. However, most people can tell the difference on ceilings. Most of the clients we work with do not want flat, because it is not washable.


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## pjohnson1970 (Jul 5, 2018)

Matte I believe just adds a slight sheen to the finish rather than a flat both are great for different purposes.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Any of the Matte paints I have used (AKA Regal, Aura) Are advertised as a wall paint and are generally a higher quality paint to promote washability with a low sheen finish. It's NOT flat. It's between an eggshell and flat. The term is a bit misleading as it does mean flat in French except it's Matte not Mat. 
It is a very pleasing finish, but I am becoming skeptical on the actual washability of it...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Any of the Matte paints I have used (AKA Regal, Aura) Are advertised as a wall paint and are generally a higher quality paint to promote washability with a low sheen finish. It's NOT flat. It's between an eggshell and flat. The term is a bit misleading as it does mean flat in French except it's Matte not Mat.
> It is a very pleasing finish, but I am becoming skeptical on the actual washability of it...


"matte" is an older version of "mat". And yes, it has come back into common use because it is fancier than "mat".


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

I've mentioned my Aura Matte story before (used it on my stairway) and let me attest, that stuff is not only washable, it does not hold dirt or entrap it the way the inexpensive, flat builder products do. But hey, that's kind of the expectation given the premium . . . 

Matte does have a slightly higher gloss level (each manufacturer varies--no industry standard) than flat. From what I recall:

Flat
Matte
Low Sheen
Eggshell
Pearl (I've seen this one between low sheen & eggshell from one manufacturer too)
Semi-Gloss 
Gloss 
High Gloss


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

You forgot Satin.....


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brushman4 said:


> You forgot Satin.....


And velvet, velvet flat, low luster,mid-sheen, soft gloss, etc etc. It's nuts!


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

wonder if there is any legality enforced regarding sheen levels


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## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

D'oh, I did overlook Satin. I stayed away from the velvet since I rarely see it. Cashmere does come in the Low Lustre (Satin) and Medium Lustre (Semi-gloss), but in the grand scheme of things, no industry standard exists. I remember using a "washable flat" once that resembled other manufacturers satin finish. SMH


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I think my biggest gripe about the painting trade is the lack of an industry standard when it comes to sheen levels and how products are labelled. Especially with Sherwin Williams. Some of their lines come with eggshell, for example, and many don't. Then, we have to explain to customers that low luster means satin. Why not just label the darned stuff satin to begin with? It racks my brain trying to remember which of their products offer which sheens. I really see no benefit to them, to us, or to our customers by describing their products in such a happenstance manner.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

SWPB said:


> D'oh, I did overlook Satin. I stayed away from the velvet since I rarely see it. Cashmere does come in the Low Lustre (Satin) and Medium Lustre (Semi-gloss), but in the grand scheme of things, no industry standard exists. I remember using a "washable flat" once that resembled other manufacturers satin finish. SMH


The velvet in SuperPaint is a lower sheen than the satin, I'd call say it's along the lines of shiny eggshell. The Cashmere low luster I feel has more sheen than a traditional satin and same for the medium luster. I'd say the medium luster falls somewhere between semi gloss and gloss.

Industry standards would be nice! Actually I'd take just a brand having a standard between lines of paint. Ever use Valspar Signiture satin? That chit is semi-gloss I don't care what they say. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

SemiproJohn said:


> I think my biggest gripe about the painting trade is the lack of an industry standard when it comes to sheen levels and how products are labelled. Especially with Sherwin Williams. Some of their lines come with eggshell, for example, and many don't. Then, we have to explain to customers that low luster means satin. Why not just label the darned stuff satin to begin with? It racks my brain trying to remember which of their products offer which sheens. I really see no benefit to them, to us, or to our customers by describing their products in such a happenstance manner.


SW is super annoying with it. I think they see eggshell as being cheap which is why they came out with Velvet. The Cashmere line is the most annoying to explain. Flat enamel = matte why not just call it what it is! 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Rbriggs82 said:


> SW is super annoying with it. I think they see eggshell as being cheap which is why they came out with Velvet. The Cashmere line is the most annoying to explain. Flat enamel = matte why not just call it what it is!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk



Exactly. And since I probably use more Cashmere than anything when doing interior wall repaints, I find myself hiding my frustration when having to do "the explanation" to customers, who usually agree to my choice, but often they have that confused look on their faces and I simply think all this could be easily be avoided if SW would just do the obvious instead of using "romantic" descriptions.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Just curious what most of you put on the walls. I would love a flat that stayed clean but I have not found one yet. Most the time we use cashmere low luster or super paint satin if Its sherwin williams or Manor Hall eggshell. Manor hall is probably my favorite since the sheen is very subtle. I have used emerald flat before and was not that impressed with it. On ceilings I use BM super hide flat white. It is the flattest paint I have seen.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

jacob33 said:


> Just curious what most of you put on the walls. I would love a flat that stayed clean but I have not found one yet. Most the time we use cashmere low luster or super paint satin if Its sherwin williams or Manor Hall eggshell. Manor hall is probably my favorite since the sheen is very subtle. I have used emerald flat before and was not that impressed with it. On ceilings I use BM super hide flat white. It is the flattest paint I have seen.


I used manor hall flat and it looked like an eggshell. Pure Performance flat was the best combination I've seen of actually being flat (mostly) and still being washable. Manor Hall was a little too much, although probably much more washable.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

jacob33 said:


> Just curious what most of you put on the walls. I would love a flat that stayed clean but I have not found one yet. Most the time we use cashmere low luster or super paint satin if Its sherwin williams or Manor Hall eggshell. Manor hall is probably my favorite since the sheen is very subtle. I have used emerald flat before and was not that impressed with it. On ceilings I use BM super hide flat white. It is the flattest paint I have seen.


As most of my jobs are for designers, I use either Aura Matt or Regal eggshell.
If its not designer quality or they're not high end, I'll use the BM Silks eggshell. I use to use the Regal Matte or .Ulti Matte (Yes there is 2 different Mattes) Haha.
But I've come to realize although they cover like crazy, they don't wash worth a damn..


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

jacob33 said:


> Just curious what most of you put on the walls. I would love a flat that stayed clean but I have not found one yet. Most the time we use cashmere low luster or super paint satin if Its sherwin williams or Manor Hall eggshell. Manor hall is probably my favorite since the sheen is very subtle. I have used emerald flat before and was not that impressed with it. On ceilings I use BM super hide flat white. It is the flattest paint I have seen.


I think both the Cashmere low luster and the superpaint satin have a little too much sheen. Normally if they want a shine I go with superpaint Velvet and cashmere for flat. 
The only annoying thing with Velvet is that most store don't have it. I have mine keep 20 gallons on hand but I have to make sure I'm not far away and run out on a job. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Cali Freshcoat Or Ultra matte is the bees knees when it comes to walls. If there isn't a Cali dealer near you, you should probably move.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The only sheen standardizations i have ever dealt with is the MPI standards, which have a pretty big range in reality, and the standards for clears used by the kitchen cabinet and furniture manufacturers. The would be "dull rubbed effect", "medium rubbed effect", "Bright rubbed effect", and "gloss". The standards for them are pretty tight actually, with a less than a 5-7 degree variation allowed between brands.
There are also pretty strict standards in FS colors and most of the other color standards used in manufacturing and other industries that use the FS system as well as the Pantone system.

As far as architectural though MPI is the only one i am aware of.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

Depends on brand, some companies use the terms interchangeably but generally matte has a slight sheen (less filler).

I used matte on our walls because I hate the texture. I’d have gone w/ flat since we’re planning a remodel but until that happens they need to be cleaned without color pull. From an angle I’d compare the sheen to a stick of butter (odd I know haha) but has the same chalky feeling of flat.

I generally prefer matte because I can usually get open time for glaze or layering but it all depends on the project.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

@PPD In my own house I prefer Flat, Flat! The flater the better because if I need to wash the walls, I don't! I paint them again. If the paint is new, I just wipe to clean a bit and touch up with paint. It always seems easier than scrubbing and they come out cleaner. I love painting and hate scrubbing!


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

jennifertemple said:


> @PPD In my own house I prefer Flat, Flat! The flater the better because if I need to wash the walls, I don't! I paint them again. If the paint is new, I just wipe to clean a bit and touch up with paint. It always seems easier than scrubbing and they come out cleaner. I love painting and hate scrubbing!



I don’t mind a sheen on smooth finish walls!! We used satin in the bedrooms & semi-gloss in the baths after completion and I love the light reflection & suede look it provides. 

Hoping to have my 10,000 VP practice hours done by the time our main living is finished so I’m comfortable enough to trowel a creamy marble white to high gloss! 

I wouldn’t scrub the walls if it weren’t for our fur-baby shaking her head :-/ That slobber sticks like tar so mr clean sponge’s are my only defense & I’m too lazy to touchup unless I MUST (life of a painter? haha).


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

PPD said:


> I don’t mind a sheen on smooth finish walls!! We used satin in the bedrooms & semi-gloss in the baths after completion and I love the light reflection & suede look it provides.



Ah, ha, my bathrooms and kitchen are the exception; those get an eggshell. Manor hall does an eggshell I like because it looks flat. Probably like the matte finish people have described here. So, yup, those a walls that need wiping to often.


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## davidch14 (Sep 9, 2018)

Rbriggs82 said:


> The velvet in SuperPaint is a lower sheen than the satin, I'd call say it's along the lines of shiny eggshell. The Cashmere low luster I feel has more sheen than a traditional satin and same for the medium luster. I'd say the medium luster falls somewhere between semi gloss and gloss.
> 
> Industry standards would be nice! Actually I'd take just a brand having a standard between lines of paint. Ever use Valspar Signiture satin? That chit is semi-gloss I don't care what they say.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


cashmere always seems to have a higher sheen (i.e. 85 deg) but not too high a gloss (i.e. 60 deg) at various levels. ironically, it actually is more similar to BM paints in this regard. i actually like the look myself.... it just seems much more rich than other sw paints. the medium lustre even looks much better than pro classic sg or the newer emerald urethane sg... imho... which can frequently come out dull and/or dry looking.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

jennifertemple said:


> Ah, ha, my bathrooms and kitchen are the exception; those get an eggshell. Manor hall does an eggshell I like because it looks flat. Probably like the matte finish people have described here. So, yup, those a walls that need wiping to often.


Yes Manor Hall has a very nice looking eggshell the last time i used it 10 years ago. Not sure if the formula is the same today. I remember it wasn't very scrubbable back then. It's similar to Benjamin Moore Ultra Spec 500 'Low Sheen' in appearance which I also like.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Usually depends on the texture of the walls/ceilings. 



Top 3 paints we use:
Cashmere
ProMar 200 HP
Duration


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