# Got this call today....



## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

HO has a custom front door that came from the manufacturer with a Sikkens undercoat. He is looking for a professional painter (that would be me... :whistling2 to take the door to his shop/garage and put the top coat on. HO buys the Sikkens Cetol Satin, a Door and Window stain/topcoat.... I am not familiar with this product. My question is this: Spray or Brush? Which will give the better result? Can I use the 440i or would a HVLP be the better option if it needs to be sprayed. I'd rather brush if there is no noticable difference between the two. What say you? :notworthy:


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> HO has a custom front door that came from the manufacturer with a Sikkens undercoat. He is looking for a professional painter (that would be me... :whistling2 to take the door to his shop/garage and put the top coat on. HO buys the Sikkens Cetol Satin, a Door and Window stain/topcoat.... I am not familiar with this product. My question is this: Spray or *Brush*? Which will give the better result?*Brush* Can I use the 440i or would a HVLP be the better option if it needs to be sprayed. I'd rather brush if there is no noticable difference between the two. What say you? :notworthy:


*Brush!*


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Another question:

Does this product require a sanding between coats or can a second coat go on without a sanding in between?


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Found the Data Sheet...

cetol_door_window_App_Guide.pdf

Brush looks like the option. Dang... they say 3 coats and 24hrs between each.... ugh..! I get to keep this door for 4 days? There goes the roller skating rink in the garage for a few days... LOL... Can I charge more for the emotional disturbance this will bring my 4 kids that actually skate in my garage? LOL... Teasing, of coarse... but dang... 24hrs between coats????


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

its a tricky product in my opinion it can be brushed but with all clears that have color in them they tend to be a little "brushy" for me.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

How well does it keep a wet edge? I know surrounding temps will be a factor but I'm just looking for a ballpark answer.

I'm trying to get a feel for the product so I am better prepared when/if I paint this door.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> How well does it keep a wet edge? I know surrounding temps will be a factor but I'm just looking for a ballpark answer.
> 
> I'm trying to get a feel for the product so I am better prepared when/if I paint this door.


if you indoors and out of the sun it should move off the brush nice. Too me its just a little sticky while brushing maybe thinning would help not sure if Sikkens recommend it or not.


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

The things we have to learn from experince .A few years ago I took on a job to strip all the paint off 11 interior doors well it took up my all of my garage and indoor porch for about 3 weeks I was doing them in the evenings after work. I used peel away worked well But after all was said and done I think I made about $5 per door.Now if it's something is bigger than a 2x4 and I have to do it at home I have flashbacks about the doors and say sorry I will do it on site.My paint shop sent me an email yesterday that sikkens will come out and visit any project you are working on and give you all the info you need to finish the project you should look into it


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

If it's a mahogany door then brush away! Very thin coats or you can get heavy marks, a little product goes a long way.
And yes, 3 coats initially and recoat every 1-3 years depending on location.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Another question:
> 
> Does this product require a sanding between coats or can a second coat go on without a sanding in between?


I always sand in between coats with a sponge and then use a tack rag, (at least on all the stiles). I've never used this product with any color to it, but the "colorless", as they call it, rules. It's awesome to apply and the satin turns out perfect. The wet edge time on it is fine- just like most oil-based clears, if not better. 

So does it come with a coat of Sikkens on it already? Does that mean you'd only have to do 2 coats then? I wouldn't bother thinning it unless you gotta do a 3rd coat. 

-jt


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

yeah it was delivered to the HO with one coat already applied.

I'm waiting (could be a while....) for the HO to make a decision. Could be just a price shopper, it was a CL lead. I bid it at $250 for Pick up and delievery + sanding with 2 coats each side. No materials, the HO already had the stain.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

that's a good deal- he should take it. I mean- you're obviously thinking about doing it correctly, so it would be a shame for him to hire a lowballer and have the door not done properly.


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> yeah it was delivered to the HO with one coat already applied.
> 
> I'm waiting (could be a while....) for the HO to make a decision. Could be just a price shopper, it was a CL lead. I bid it at $250 for Pick up and delievery + sanding with 2 coats each side. No materials, the HO already had the stain.


That's pretty cheap. Are you applying the tinted sealer or the clear? If it's the tinted sealer it's going to take a bit longer then the clear. You'll need to check back on the door shortly after you coat it, they are very susceptible to runs popping up in the corners and if you let it dry like that it's about impossible to fix.
I always steel wool between coats and it comes out very nice.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

It's Satin.

The price is reasonable. I would have only spent at the most 5 hours on the project. I'm not ignorant of similar types of stains. I can hand brush a vertical (in place) 9' walnut door with Helmsman Minwax rather successfully.  

Thanks guys for your input. I got a rather good feel for the product in question without every using it. If the project every becomes mine, I'll post some pics.


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

The satin comes in 3 colors plus a clear, thats why I asked. Most of the time it takes 3 coats of color to get a nice solid depth. I'm not at all implying that you don't know what you're doing. I'm just trying to pass on some of my knowledge after doing about 20 doors and a bunch of garage doors with the Sikkens D&W. :yes:

It's definitely not like using Helmsman, but I'm sure you'll figure that out when you open the can. Here's 1 of 3 garage doors I did on one home. This is 2 coats of Mahogany D&W satin on all 6 sides before any installation hardware was applied, and 1 coat after installation. It got another coat after this just prior to settlement.


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## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I bid it at $250 for Pick up and delievery + sanding with 2 coats each side.


I would coat the top and bottom of an exterior door too :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> I would coat the top and bottom of an exterior door too :thumbsup:


Good Call!

That's a very good practice considering the manufacture agreement with the buyer is that the warranty on the door isn't any good if all 6 sides are not sealed by a primer or paint.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

StefanC said:


> The satin comes in 3 colors plus a clear, thats why I asked. Most of the time it takes 3 coats of color to get a nice solid depth. I'm not at all implying that you don't know what you're doing. I'm just trying to pass on some of my knowledge after doing about 20 doors and a bunch of garage doors with the Sikkens D&W. :yes:
> 
> It's definitely not like using Helmsman, but I'm sure you'll figure that out when you open the can. Here's 1 of 3 garage doors I did on one home. This is 2 coats of Mahogany D&W satin on all 6 sides before any installation hardware was applied, and 1 coat after installation. It got another coat after this just prior to settlement.


Very nice! :thumbsup:


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Good Call!
> 
> That's a very good practice considering the manufacture agreement with the buyer is that the warranty on the door isn't any good if all 6 sides are not sealed by a primer or paint.


The door retailer/installer used to deliver and install the garage doors the same day! It was a bit of a pain to carefully unbolt the hardware and coat all the 6 sides on a 100+lb garage door panel.. we had claimed no responsibility if they voided the warranty due to this. We finally convinced them to drop the doors off a week or so prior to install.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

OK...

Got this door in yesterday. (I'll get some pics up later)

Today I sanded and applied the first coat of this Sikkens Cetol Door & Window. It's a High Solids Alkyd. Satin

Anyways... 2 hours later and it's not dry yet, not even to touch.... I think they were serious when they suggested 24hrs between coats... blah....


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Picked it up yesterday:









Uwrapping the door jam and side light window:









Unpackaging the door:









Not as solid as I anticipated.... Laminated pine and plywood?? This was sent from Australia... ???? They couldn't make this in the States??? 


















Sanded and applied first coat, it's still wet 2 hours later... :









Here is a pic of the product being applied:









Wish me luck!... 

Oh ya.. forgot to mention the bumps I have ran into... I'll post those pics later. :no:


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

weird looking door :blink:. what goes on the inside to cover the holes for privacy? I do love the grain pattern though.

Perhaps your "bumps" are coming from debris that was picked up from inside the holes and then deposited by the brush?

lookin' good.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

haha... yeah.. them not the kinda "bumps" I was referring too. I haven't uploaded the pics yet... I will later.

Those holes have steel tubes that are inserted from both sides of the door. They hold a thin peice of fogged glass in the middle of the hole.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

The "bumps in the road" I dealt with... minor but yet I had to go buy the clamps to hold the laminate down. What I did here to fix these splits the HO caused when pulling the steel rings out was Super Glue and clamps. Worked GREAT! :thumbsup:



















The HO is a real nice person. I called him when I found these. I wanted to be sure he was aware of the damage before I started anything, I took lots of pictures and sent them to him via a link to my picasa album. If he had denied the damage, I would have boxed everything back up and drop it off at his house. But that wasn't the case, we discussed possible solutions to the problem and came up with the fix. He even through in some more cash for the extra work!! He admitted that he caused the laminate to crack. The rings are a really tight fit. Once he gets them back in, they will most likely never come back out. :yes:

I had about 4 holes that had cracked laminate.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

StefanC said:


> If it's a mahogany door then brush away! Very thin coats or you can get heavy marks, a little product goes a long way.
> And yes, 3 coats initially and recoat every 1-3 years depending on location.


This is soooo True! Painter beware! :yes:

I took heed to this instruction and I can still see brush marks, even with a thin coat. I'm going to SW today to pick up a better brush so the final coat will come out better.




[email protected] said:


> yeah it was delivered to the HO with one coat already applied.
> 
> I'm waiting (could be a while....) for the HO to make a decision. Could be just a price shopper, it was a CL lead. I bid it at $250 for Pick up and delievery + sanding with 2 coats each side. No materials, the HO already had the stain.


In the end I will be billing for $325. I wasn't aware of the casing and side light frame + the extra time to fix the the torn laminate.

So far, it's going rather smooth. 

The product keeps a wet edge much longer than I anticipated. I get the whole door covered and for the final pass, I'm able to stroke the door from top to bottom, that's nice! This makes it easy to get a good even coat with minimal noticability of brush lines.

I laid the door down on sawhorses for the first coat and for gaining a knowledge of how the product works. Now that I now the product and it's characteristics, I'll be doing the door standing up which allows me to get the job done sooner being that I can do both sides. That's really how I visioned the job anyways...


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Apparently, the frame is Surian Cedar with a Merbau sill.










Ever heard of Surian Cedar? Not I!


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

Once you get to the final coats the brush marks will blend into the grain much better. With that clear satin you probably won't see any brush marks once it dries. That stuff takes forever to dry :yes:.

Are those splits on the inside or outside of the door? If it's on the outside I wouldn't warranty the door against de-lamination due to weather, heck I might not even warranty the inside if I were you.

Looks good though, once you get a feel for the stuff it goes down pretty smoothly, seems like you're on the right track.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

StefanC said:


> Are those splits on the inside or outside of the door? If it's on the outside I wouldn't warranty the door against de-lamination due to weather, heck I might not even warranty the inside if I were you.


Both. The steel rings are a tight fit, so when they were lifted out, they caught the edge of the laminate and raised it to cause the tearing in the surface and the separation from the inner part of the door in the hole.

I agree about the warranty. Good call. :thumbsup:

Fortunately for the HO, the side damaged goes to the inside of the home and the area is near the bottom of the door. So, if there was (which there isn't) any noticeable defect due to the damage, it would not be at eye lvl.


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## painterdude (Jun 18, 2008)

Kind of surprised that no one said..hey, if you're not sure, pass on the job. Suggest the HO get someone who is more familiar with the process and product. The honesty might bring you more and more work. Over the years I've passed on several projects that were not in my field of expertise. If I want to learn on the job it'll be something on my own house. Not for a customer. Either way, hope it comes out right and the HO is satisfied. pd


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> haha... yeah.. them not the kinda "bumps" I was referring too. I haven't uploaded the pics yet... I will later.
> 
> Those holes have steel tubes that are inserted from both sides of the door. They hold a thin peice of fogged glass in the middle of the hole.


cool, I see. At least he was cool about it and admitted it. Looks like you've got it all under control. Tell those dudes to use some serious TLC during instal.


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## StefanC (Apr 29, 2009)

It's not a difficult process for a professional painter once you get the hang of it. And now it's something to add to his repertoire.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

StefanC said:


> It's not a difficult process for a professional painter once you get the hang of it. And now it's something to add to his repertoire.


I agree.

pd, It's not that I haven't done this style of work, I was just more concerned about a product I have never used before...

I got one more coat to apply. It seems as though the install may be next week. Regardless, I'll have to go back to the house and get pictures of the door after it's all in...


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## painterdude (Jun 18, 2008)

hope it comes out great. I couldn't tell from the posts that you were experienced in this kind of work. I've just seen too many projects over the years done by "try-ers". We've all had to clean up others messes. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. pd


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

This job was finished long ago... enjoy!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Looks great! Jason


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Looks more commercial. Different looking that's for sure.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

I can see that commercial look your thinking about... Looks like an entry door to an office building. Interesting observation...


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Are they big fans of Modern/Contemporary art/architecture?


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## LOSTinDETAILS (Jun 17, 2009)

looks great!:thumbsup: I don't really care for the style but that's just me.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

That looks great, I love the style!


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Great job on the door. Finish turned out very nice.


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

nEighter said:


> Are they big fans of Modern/Contemporary art/architecture?


Yes they are. You should see the inside of the house... Very nice! but alas... not possible..


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I can see that commercial look your thinking about... Looks like an entry door to an office building. Interesting observation...


I think the door handle plays a big part of giving it that look as well. Wood looks great though.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

That is a great looking door...I love the style!!!!!! One of a kind


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