# RRP Lead Poisoning



## Dean CRCNA

I'm a contractor who took the Renovator course and also took a lead inspector course. In the lead inspector course, we went in a lot more detail about lead dust poisoning (lead based paints).

Now, I know a lot of you guys ate lead based paint chips for cereal and drank white lead based paint as baby milk growing up . I also know that the majority of contractors don't think this lead poisoning stuff should be a fuss.

However, doctors, scientist, researchers, hospitals say there is a problem!

My question is ... why do doctors/scientist/researchers/hospitals say there is a big problem and contractors don't think there is.

I think the big divergence, is that contractors (and some homeowners) rely on what they've seen. 

What some contractors may not realize, is that the VAST MAJORITY of lead damage ... can't be really seen (unless you do research or studies).

When a person breathes in or swallows lead paint dust, the lead enters the blood stream. It first attacks the nervous system and then the soft tissue (brain, kidneys, heart ...) and cuts them down a couple of notches. Example: It lowers IQ ... doesn't make IQ go to zero 

After it does it's damage to the nervous system and soft tissue ... 95% of the lead gets stored in the bone. Just waiting until you get old to start seeping out again.

It can cause a ton of problems and damage ... and you would never see a noticeable lead poisoning symptom.. You wouldn't know about it (but it still is doing it's thing).

Only when you get to the mid to high scale of blood lead levels do you actually start seeing noticeable symptoms. These would be things like a headache, tiredness, crankiness, flu like symptoms ...

A problem though with these symptoms at this mid to high levels, is that they mimic everyday life symptoms. If someone gets a headache ... they take aspirin. If they get constipated ... they take ex-lax. Feel like the flu? Take Tamiflu. All these folks don't go and get a lead blood test. It's a good thing too!!! If for all these years homeowners would have taken a lead blood test after we have scrapped and sanded paint ... we would have probably been sued so many times ... our head would spin.

The only time you really start hearing about lead poisoning is when you get into the higher ranges. This is because the person is dead.

So, just because you can't see the symptoms ... doesn't mean a lot of people aren't getting damaged.

my 2 cents (which is all it's worth)


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## oldpaintdoc

Many contractors are concerned with lead dust just not to the amount as being forced down our throats.
Doctors and others see it as a problem because that is how they make money.
If lead was as big a problem as it is being said how did humans survive as long as they have.
Lead levels in this country are lower now than they have ever been.
You are never going to eleminate lead. It is a natural element.
What are we going to do tell the kids no you cant go out doors because there is lead there.
Oh and by the way we all need to start wearing helmets in the shower because that is the #1 injury in the house.


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## Dean CRCNA

I would totally agree with you that lead poisoning is down.

We are down to the point to where only over a million children are affected by lead paint poisoning http://www.epa.gov/lead/

_" ... how did humans survive as long as they have"_ ... the type of lead poisoning everyone is talking about is not surviving or dying. It is about making a child dumber for the rest of their life. Or it is about making the kid get into more trouble the rest of their life.

_A long term study of lead poisoning, started off measuring babies blood levels. Thirty years later, they went to measure them again and found that 55% had been arrested._

It can be about creating a ADD or ADHD kid, which spends their whole life with it.

Not blue lips, throwing seizures and then falling down dead type of stuff, but still ...


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## oldpaintdoc

Ya I know. It's all about the kids.
And your link to the EPA studies. You do not really want to know what I think of them.


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## bikerboy

The problem with relying on the medical community for advice is that it is not totally objective. How often does one go to the doctor because they feel good? They see people when they are sick. 

Not saying that doctors don't mean well, just that they normally only see the sick or injured.


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## nEighter

ragebhardt said:


> Ya I know. It's all about the kids.
> And your link to the EPA studies. You do not really want to know what I think of them.


are you saying that somehow consumer reports and the epa are the same people!?!


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## oldpaintdoc

Interesting thought.:whistling2:


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## rather b fishin

What i find is kinda funny is that we spend a lot of time and money on proper containment procedures and a week later joe blow is spreading it all over the local dump with his bulldozer.


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## y.painting

bikerboy said:


> The problem with relying on the medical community for advice is that it is not totally objective. How often does one go to the doctor because they feel good? They see people when they are sick.
> 
> Not saying that doctors don't mean well, just that they normally only see the sick or injured.


Yeah, that's the same issue with relying on a good mechanic. You don't take your car to one when it's running perfectly smooth or doesn't need any servicing. They only see cars that need servicing. :whistling2:


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## CamillusPaints

I am all for doing things correct and safe. However when the most affordable option to my customer is to have his kid or the next door neighbor kid wash his exterior because I cant without reclaiming the water ( make sure he gets real close to the power lines and then give him a sharp blade and a ladder to climb and scrape the peeling lead paint. That tells me the minds that make the rules haven't thought this all the way through.


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## aaron61

I'm still waiting for more than hyperbole...show me the bodies????????


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## daArch

Hey, I'm a contractor and I believe in the dangers. But then I poisoned myself back in the 80's.

I was in the the low 50's (whatever parts per micron scale they use) and my partner was in the high 50's.

His symptoms were irritability (well, he WAS working with me :whistling2 and lack of concentration. I had kidney pains, headaches, and a metallic taste.

I think it's like smoking. Many smokers say, "I've been smoking a pack a day for 30 years and I'm still here" You never hear from the dead ones. 

I am glad I took my head out of the sand and realized the real dangers of lead.


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## Dean CRCNA

bikerboy said:


> The problem with relying on the medical community for advice is that it is not totally objective. How often does one go to the doctor because they feel good? They see people when they are sick.
> 
> Not saying that doctors don't mean well, just that they normally only see the sick or injured.


As I mentioned, the vast majority of people with lead poisoning, don't go to a doctor. They don't even know they've been poisoned. 

What we have is a group of contractors who say lead poisoning is no big deal. and then you have ...

• US Consumer Product Safety Commission
• US Environmental Protection Agency
• US Department of Housing and Urban Development
• Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry
• US Department of Health and Human Services
• National Center for Healthy Housing 
• Mayo Clinic, Children’s Hospital and Hospitals across the country
• American Academy of Pediatrics 
• National Institutes of Health
• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
• The New England Journal of Medicine
• Alliance for Healthy Homes
• Thousands of Doctors, Poison Centers and Researchers
• States, Counties and City Health Departments across the nation

Saying there is a big problem.


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## Dean CRCNA

y.painting said:


> Yeah, that's the same issue with relying on a good mechanic. You don't take your car to one when it's running perfectly smooth or doesn't need any servicing. They only see cars that need servicing. :whistling2:


But would you listen to a good mechanic? Could good mechanics across the nation begin noticing throttle control problems in Toyota's and begin warning folks?


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## Dean CRCNA

daArch said:


> Many smokers say, "I've been smoking a pack a day for 30 years and I'm still here" You never hear from the dead ones.


Excellent way of putting it


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## CApainter

Lead awareness and training has been required in the industrial painting industry for years now. Most steel painters, particularly bridge painters, are exposed to more lead then any residential painter will ever be in their life time. Yet the steel painters understand the hazards and are willing to comply with the safe work practices, unlike the residential painting contractors who whine about government interference, and try to find some clever way of circumventing the laws.


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## SterlingPainting

You are quite right about the symptoms being cumulative and hard to spot. The onset is no doubt so gradual as to not even be noticed until you can read properly, need 12 hours sleep daily and have an unending ringing in your ears. 

Bottom line we work with toxic ****.. it wont kill you, but then neither will smoking or taking 1mg of cianide daily. Cancer is such a "general term". Why not be healthy and happy? 

When I first started painting I was so naive, and my boss didn't care 1 iota 
about his employees' health. He had me demoing the inside of an asbestos ridden house without a mask and he didn't even tell me. Just so he could avoid paying to have a licensed contractor do it and he could save a few bucks on his "flip". I've hung off the edges of buildings...etc.

Heavy metals like mercury, lead, cadmium, titanium, many of them are in the old paints...and I've payed my real dues by exposing my self to that crap for years. I'm passionate about this subject because I feel it's a damn crime for people to endanger their health just to feed themselves, and frankly, we just don't get payed enough. Thats why I'm all for the health regs.


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## Dean CRCNA

I actually thought when I started this post ... everyone would be against it. So I'm pleasantly surprised by daArch, CAPainter and Sterling.

Arch,

50 mcg/dL is no walk in the park. Did you wait it out or what did you have to do? How long did the symptoms last? At 80 mcg/dL death can appear for some folks. Wouldn't surprise me if OSHA lowered the PEL and action levels in the near future.


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## TheRogueBristle

Dean CRCNA said:


> As I mentioned, the vast majority of people with lead poisoning, don't go to a doctor. They don't even know they've been poisoned.
> 
> What we have is a group of contractors who say lead poisoning is no big deal. and then you have ...
> 
> • US Consumer Product Safety Commission
> • US Environmental Protection Agency
> • US Department of Housing and Urban Development
> • Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry
> • US Department of Health and Human Services
> • National Center for Healthy Housing
> • Mayo Clinic, Children’s Hospital and Hospitals across the country
> • American Academy of Pediatrics
> • National Institutes of Health
> • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> • The New England Journal of Medicine
> • Alliance for Healthy Homes
> • Thousands of Doctors, Poison Centers and Researchers
> • States, Counties and City Health Departments across the nation
> 
> Saying there is a big problem.


You mean the people doing actual science as opposed to relying on anecdotes and "personal experience"?! Pffftt. :jester:

This is an important issue, imo, and as are the other toxic substances in building materials. Today we are aware of the hazards of lead and asbestos. Of the substances we use today, are there any that will be found to be harmful in the next fifty years? Hopefully this type of awareness will prevent that type of future discovery. If rational people understand the hazards of lead, they are likely to comply with the safety measure, within reason. The machismo that somehow "the man" is trying to stick it to your business, or dip into your wallet by exaggerating the danger of lead is a little overblown, especially when you consider that it affects your personal health, as well that of those to whom claim to offer a valuable service.


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## daArch

Dean CRCNA said:


> I actually thought when I started this post ... everyone would be against it. So I'm pleasantly surprised by daArch, CAPainter and Sterling.
> 
> Arch,
> 
> 50 mcg/dL is no walk in the park. Did you wait it out or what did you have to do? How long did the symptoms last? At 80 mcg/dL death can appear for some folks. Wouldn't surprise me if OSHA lowered the PEL and action levels in the near future.



My level was 52 or 54 (my brain is lead dead :thumbup: ) my partner was 58.

Actually it's not a death sentence at 80. Took the course today and my instructor related about a youth who died at 300.

Nevertheless, 50 is high. When we were elevated in the mid 80's, 60 was the baseline for treatment of an adult.

I bought a supplied-air respirator, avoided further contamination, and followed old wives' tales to reduce levels - orange juice. 

Symptoms lasted quite awhile. The more severe ones for maybe six months. The metalic taste in my mouth for over a year. My rotten attitude is still here :thumbup:


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## aaron61

daArch said:


> My level was 52 or 54 (my brain is lead dead :thumbup: ) my partner was 58.
> 
> Actually it's not a death sentence at 80. Took the course today and my instructor related about a youth who died at 300.
> 
> Nevertheless, 50 is high. When we were elevated in the mid 80's, 60 was the baseline for treatment of an adult.
> 
> I bought a supplied-air respirator, avoided further contamination, and followed old wives' tales to reduce levels - orange juice.
> 
> Symptoms lasted quite awhile. The more severe ones for maybe six months. The metalic taste in my mouth for over a year. My rotten attitude is still here :thumbup:


From this I can reason that you were right in the middle of some serious "dust" and your long term damage was a metalic taste and a bad attitude.
My God Man!!!! Now I understand the severity of disturbing 6 sqft.


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## brushmonkey

I do mostly residential & Im all for complying & playing by the rules. The big difference is steel bridge workers & their unions have huge bloated budgets from the endless taxpayer coffers to compensate for extra precautions & safety measures. If they go over budget, no big deal, unions just scream & stomp till they get more funds. Residential HO's....hmm, not so much. :whistling2:


CApainter said:


> Lead awareness and training has been required in the industrial painting industry for years now. Most steel painters, particularly bridge painters, are exposed to more lead then any residential painter will ever be in their life time. Yet the steel painters understand the hazards and are willing to comply with the safe work practices, unlike the residential painting contractors who whine about government interference, and try to find some clever way of circumventing the laws.


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## parodi

Dean CRCNA said:


> As I mentioned, the vast majority of people with lead poisoning, don't go to a doctor. They don't even know they've been poisoned.
> 
> What we have is a group of contractors who say lead poisoning is no big deal. and then you have ...
> 
> • US Consumer Product Safety Commission
> • US Environmental Protection Agency
> • US Department of Housing and Urban Development
> • Agency for Toxic Substances & Disease Registry
> • US Department of Health and Human Services
> • National Center for Healthy Housing
> • Mayo Clinic, Children’s Hospital and Hospitals across the country
> • American Academy of Pediatrics
> • National Institutes of Health
> • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
> • The New England Journal of Medicine
> • Alliance for Healthy Homes
> • Thousands of Doctors, Poison Centers and Researchers
> • States, Counties and City Health Departments across the nation
> 
> Saying there is a big problem.


I have some general questions. If lead pollution is as bad as the government and all your sources are claiming, then it must be causing serious injury or death. Anyone who puts the public in such danger must be stopped at all costs, right? So why then are those who place the public in such danger being fined? 

Why don't the EPA/RRP enforcers haul those responsible for endangering the public into court and mete out jail time if there is such a public endangerment?

For instance, if I show such little regard for human life and the public welfare that I bring a toxic dust into the subway system for dispersal I am going to go away to prison for a very long time. Yet there will be no fine other than littering. This $37,500 fine makes it appear that the federal government is primarily interested in this as a punitive tax and not a public health issue. If it were such a public health issue the feds should have been blanketing the airwaves with this warning for at least a year, yet they didn't and continue not to. Only people in comas in the US did not know that we were switching over to digital TV signals. The feds assiduously directed the citizens to get a free converter box. Yet with lead the feds have clammed up waiting to bag the cash instead of being concerned "about the children."

Also as the nimrod here pointed out, lead poisoning has been known about for a very long time. How come people who insist on buying pre-78 houses get off scott free as they put their children and others who visit the house in danger? For those who didn't know of the dangers why does the federal government not BEGIN with the practice of forcing sellers and owners to post warnings on the house just like they forced tobacco companies to put warning labels on cigarette packs?

If the feds want to make contractors responsible for lead dust, great. However lead in houses is not their fault. What about making everyone else responsible too and spread the responsibility around? How about jail time for homeowners who get lead work done by non-lead certified contractors if the dangers are so great?


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## CApainter

Parodi,

Lead is a latent hazard that only becomes a problem when it is disturbed, and when exposure is above permissible levels. Just like asbestos. Therefore, there is no need for public panic because an immediate danger does not exist.

Unfortunately, responsible contractors like yourself have to be regulated with government guidelines, because too many careless contractors, and laborers, perform recklessly during construction projects, without any regards for their own health and safety, or those of the public. 

You should be more concerned about the reckless hacks out there instead of calling people, who are graciously providing important information on the subject, nimrods.


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## daArch

Jim,

I can tell you've been speaking to Forsyth. :whistling2: 

As has been pointed out on the APN, the lead law has been in existence for many years. Murphy did write about it in The INSTALLER in the April 2006 issue. We've had many years to become educated. I myself ignored the forecasts. 

Heck, I am going to hold people who write for the trade mags responsible for not informing us with more vigor 

the 37,500 fines are to pay for the program, and they sure have made people sit up and take the law seriously. 

When was the last time you bought a pre-1978 house? Maybe the law is different in Bergen County than here in MA. But here there are big issues with lead when it comes time to sell, buy, and finance a home. Notifications of the presence of lead is required - that warning label you speak of. 

The feds are NOT saying lead in houses is our fault, but it IS our responsibility to CONTAIN it if we disturb it.

BTW, where did you take the course?

I agree that a HO should be required to have work done by a certified renovator. Perhaps that will be in the making soon enough.


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## daArch

aaron61 said:


> From this I can reason that you were right in the middle of some serious "dust" and your long term damage was a metalic taste and a bad attitude.
> My God Man!!!! Now I understand the severity of disturbing 6 sqft.


Aaron, you took the course, you learned how easily it is to poison a child vs an adult. And the different effects on developing bodies vs an old fart. You learned how very little lead paint dust it takes to adversely affect a child. 

And remember, it's stays in their bodies, so a little here and a little there starts adding up.


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## Dean CRCNA

parodi said:


> I have some general questions. *If lead pollution is as bad as the government and all your sources are claiming, then it must be causing serious injury or death.* Anyone who puts the public in such danger must be stopped at all costs, right? So why then are those who place the public in such danger being fined?


You're missing the whole concept.

1. The lead poisoning that they're trying to prevent (mainly) is the stuff between 5 mcg/dL and let's say 40 mcg/dL. At these levels, you don't even get a hint (noticeable symptoms) that lead poisoning has occurred (unless you go get a blood level check done).

At these levels, you don't get even a headache (for most of us), so you have no clue that anything is/was wrong.

However, at 5 mcg/dL the lead is making the child dumber, changes personality, more angry/acting up and etc. 

Now the person may have a 90 IQ (average) and the effects of the lead may only drop their IQ to 84 (low average). The drop is permanent and irreversible. 

Do you want this for your child or grandchild? As a parent, do you want someone else to do this for your child or grandchild? Do you want to do this to someone's child/grandchild?

I think most contractors would say no. (Some hacks are that harsh, but in general, most contractors would say no).

However, I think there are those contractors who would/could say ... "I don't believe that it will drop the kids IQ (or whatever). I think Mayo Clinic is lying. I think Consumer Product Safety .. is lying. I think all these folks are lying. 

If that is the case, then show your stats and I'll show mine


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## parodi

CApainter said:


> Parodi,
> 
> Lead is a latent hazard that only becomes a problem when it is disturbed, and when exposure is above permissible levels. Just like asbestos. Therefore, there is no need for public panic because an immediate danger does not exist.
> 
> Unfortunately, responsible contractors like yourself have to be regulated with government guidelines, because too many careless contractors, and laborers, perform recklessly during construction projects, without any regards for their own health and safety, or those of the public.
> 
> You should be more concerned about the reckless hacks out there instead of calling people, who are graciously providing important information on the subject, nimrods.


I wasn't calling people nimrods. I was calling a person a nimrod....the one who used the word "genocide." Genocide? Come on. Read your history before using such words.


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## CApainter

Understood. My apologies.


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## aaron61

daArch said:


> Aaron, you took the course, you learned how easily it is to poison a child vs an adult. And the different effects on developing bodies vs an old fart. You learned how very little lead paint dust it takes to adversely affect a child.
> 
> And remember, it's stays in their bodies, so a little here and a little there starts adding up.


No,I heard can,could & might. I did not see ANY evidence, IE a person suffering the effects,be it child or adult.I will follow the rules but I truly believe,at this time it's all BS. Where are the thousands,hundreds,tens or even 1 person or child who is now suffering from lead poisoning and what are the damages.I'm not talking about symptoms,I'm talking about actual long term damage????? Again,I'm not trying to be a D*CK I'm serious!!! 
Someone PLEASE educate me?????

You also stated that the $37,000 goes for the program....what is the program? I thought that's what the $300 for the logo was for????


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## RCP

aaron61 said:


> No,I heard can,could & might. I did not see ANY evidence, IE a person suffering the effects,be it child or adult.I will follow the rules but I truly believe,at this time it's all BS. Where are the thousands,hundreds,tens or even 1 person or child who is now suffering from lead poisoning and what are the damages.I'm not talking about symptoms,I'm talking about actual long term damage????? Again,I'm not trying to be a D*CK I'm serious!!!
> Someone PLEASE educate me?????
> 
> You also stated that the $37,000 goes for the program....what is the program? I thought that's what the $300 for the logo was for????


Aaron, I think part of the problem is that the effects are not readily apparent (low IQ and irrational behavior) and affect a small percentage of the population. Kind of hard to find a "poster child"Here is one study.. For a more personal story, go here.


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## aaron61

RCP said:


> Aaron, I think part of the problem is that the effects are not readily apparent (low IQ and irrational behavior) and affect a small percentage of the population. Kind of hard to find a "poster child"Here is one study.. For a more personal story, go here.


So again this is all hypathetical?? They don't have a little boy named Tommy who was poisoned from lead dust from construction who is now unable to function in society???


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## aaron61

Yes I have seen her website and there is nothing on there stating what the damage is????


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## parodi

Dean CRCNA said:


> You're missing the whole concept.
> 
> 1. The lead poisoning that they're trying to prevent (mainly) is the stuff between 5 mcg/dL and let's say 40 mcg/dL. At these levels, you don't even get a hint (noticeable symptoms) that lead poisoning has occurred (unless you go get a blood level check done).
> 
> At these levels, you don't get even a headache (for most of us), so you have no clue that anything is/was wrong.
> 
> However, at 5 mcg/dL the lead is making the child dumber, changes personality, more angry/acting up and etc.
> 
> Now the person may have a 90 IQ (average) and the effects of the lead may only drop their IQ to 84 (low average). The drop is permanent and irreversible.
> 
> Do you want this for your child or grandchild? As a parent, do you want someone else to do this for your child or grandchild? Do you want to do this to someone's child/grandchild?
> 
> I think most contractors would say no. (Some hacks are that harsh, but in general, most contractors would say no).
> 
> However, I think there are those contractors who would/could say ... "I don't believe that it will drop the kids IQ (or whatever). I think Mayo Clinic is lying. I think Consumer Product Safety .. is lying. I think all these folks are lying.
> 
> If that is the case, then show your stats and I'll show mine


You will notice that my post did not question the validity of anything that you or your sources are claiming, nor did I question the seriousness of any child succumbing to lead poisoning. My point (again): "*If all of this is so serious a threat to human health, why then does it not carry a penalty of jail time as other crimes against life and limb do?"* I get your point, now will you consider mine?

If, as you say, children need to be protected (and I'm not disagreeing that they do) and the consequences of not protecting them is dire, why should the government amass wealth in millions of dollars in fines as a result of this enforcement instead of punishing people in the normal way with jail time? The federal government in this case is enacting its own windfall.

Did you know that drivers breaking the speed limit in their cars kill many thousands of children every year? Yet speeding tickets can cost as little as $100. By the same reasoning, anyone really serious about protecting the lives of children would make speeding tickets $37,500 too, wouldn't they? 

You see, the problem I have with this lead law is that is gets the federal government into the $$$$ pie as if there were already a civil proceeding and settlement instead of statute infraction. A state like Ohio fines you $100 for the speeding and if you cause permanent damage to a person you hit with your car, the courts then settle that dollar amount of damage. That's why the state of Ohio doesn't fine you $500,000 for speeding even if you made someone a paraplegic and even if a court might award the victim more than that sum. Where does the federal government get off charging such an excessive fine for a violation which *MAY* (not even certainly) cause personal injury? (Amendment VIII prohibits the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments.) What are we in for next....indentured servitude for those not able to pay?


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## aaron61

parodi said:


> You will notice that my post did not question the validity of anything that you or your sources are claiming, nor did I question the seriousness of any child succumbing to lead poisoning. My point (again): "*If all of this is so serious a threat to human health, why then does it not carry a penalty of jail time as other crimes against life and limb do?"* I get your point, now will you consider mine?
> 
> If, as you say, children need to be protected (and I'm not disagreeing that they do) and the consequences of not protecting them is dire, why should the government amass wealth in millions of dollars in fines as a result of this enforcement instead of punishing people in the normal way with jail time? The federal government in this case is enacting its own windfall.
> 
> Did you know that drivers breaking the speed limit in their cars kill many thousands of children every year? Yet speeding tickets can cost as little as $100. By the same reasoning, anyone really serious about protecting the lives of children would make speeding tickets $37,500 too, wouldn't they?
> 
> You see, the problem I have with this lead law is that is gets the federal government into the $$$$ pie as there were already a civil proceeding and settlement. A state like Ohio fines you $100 for the speeding and if you cause permanent damage to a person you hit with your car, the courts then settle that dollar amount of damage. That's why the state of Ohio let's say doesn't fine you $500,000 for speeding even if you made someone a paraplegic and a court might award the victim more than that sum. Where does the federal government get off charging such an excessive fine for a violation causing personal injury? (Amendment VIII prohibits the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments.) What are we in for next....indentured servitude for those not able to pay?


I really am agreeing with your line of thinking. This should be on a case by case basis.Where were you when they put this thing together??


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## daArch

Aaron,

I hope I know your internet personna well enough to realize you are not being a d!ck and are being serious about case studies.

Without having any personal experience with any malady (cancers caused by smoking, asbestos, or whatever) one could question all sorts of causes and effects.

Can you accept the studies that (supposedly) prove the dangers of obesity, smoking, asbestos, pollution, pouring thinners into the ground, etc etc ?

There are many things in our lives that we may not have any personal experience with, but we do need to believe the reports of learned people. Heck, many religions ask for a lot less proof. And some people believe the moon landing was a hoax. 

That said, our instructor related how a young baby of a newly landed family who resided in a lead polluted house DIED of lead poisoning. With the presence of a language barrier (I think the family was from a old Easter Block country) the doctors did not properly diagnose. The symptoms for lead poisoning are similar to the flu and other "normal" infant conditions. The autopsy showed the baby had a level of 300 (whatever the units are)

Now to be flippant to your post, is death long term enough ? (Sorry, couldn't resist)

With all I have studied lately, I am wondering if my ADD is heredity as I heve been lead to believe, or a product of my environment? My wife is also ADD, but our son is not.

Having been lead poisoned made a believer out of me. I come from a family whose mother poo poo's many such things. "Those kids in Roxbury were stupid BEFORE they chewed the window sills" Sounds like a severe case of denial to me. 

Aaron, I can not convince you about lead dangers anymore than I could convince my father (rest his soul) that the JFK assassination involved more than a lone gunman. But I do ask that you study it thoroughly. There is much sh!t about it on the internet. Once you see all the evidence and case studies, I believe you will be convinced.


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## oldpaintdoc

Dean CRCNA said:


> You're missing the whole concept.
> 
> 1. The lead poisoning that they're trying to prevent (mainly) is the stuff between 5 mcg/dL and let's say 40 mcg/dL. At these levels, you don't even get a hint (noticeable symptoms) that lead poisoning has occurred (unless you go get a blood level check done).
> 
> At these levels, you don't get even a headache (for most of us), so you have no clue that anything is/was wrong.
> 
> However, at 5 mcg/dL the lead is making the child dumber, changes personality, more angry/acting up and etc.
> 
> Now the person may have a 90 IQ (average) and the effects of the lead may only drop their IQ to 84 (low average). The drop is permanent and irreversible.
> 
> Do you want this for your child or grandchild? As a parent, do you want someone else to do this for your child or grandchild? Do you want to do this to someone's child/grandchild?
> 
> I think most contractors would say no. (Some hacks are that harsh, but in general, most contractors would say no).
> 
> However, I think there are those contractors who would/could say ... "I don't believe that it will drop the kids IQ (or whatever). I think Mayo Clinic is lying. I think Consumer Product Safety .. is lying. I think all these folks are lying.
> 
> If that is the case, then show your stats and I'll show mine


The #'s do not add up.
There is less lead now in the good ole us of a than ever before.
How did all the generations before now make it where they have.
(more angry/acting up) Gotta give us all a break on this one. Again lead levels are at there lowest. Why were the previous generations not the angriest. Again the #'s do not add up.
I truly think most of the info being put out by epa is pure propaganda.
Yes I am a father of 2 and a grand father of 2. I live in a pre 1978 home. raised my kids in it.
I am going to say it again THE #'S DO NOT ADD UP - PURE PROPAGANDA.

Just the way I think. Please feel free to think what you want and I won't hold it against you.


----------



## daArch

ragebhardt said:


> Why were the previous generations not the angriest.



Ahhh, in the teens and the 40's there were a few world situations where angry young men were useful.

Now as to the previous generations not suffering. My maternal grandfather whom I never knew was a total wacko. Abusive, ADD, drunk, etc. If you peel back the onion layers, you will see that our forefathers weren't such gems. 

You really need to study this issue further and not be like my mother.


----------



## aaron61

daArch said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I hope I know your internet personna well enough to realize you are not being a d!ck and are being serious about case studies.
> 
> Without having any personal experience with any malady (cancers caused by smoking, asbestos, or whatever) one could question all sorts of causes and effects.
> 
> Can you accept the studies that (supposedly) prove the dangers of obesity, smoking, asbestos, pollution, pouring thinners into the ground, etc etc ?
> 
> There are many things in our lives that we may not have any personal experience with, but we do need to believe the reports of learned people. Heck, many religions ask for a lot less proof. And some people believe the moon landing was a hoax.
> 
> That said, our instructor related how a young baby of a newly landed family who resided in a lead polluted house DIED of lead poisoning. With the presence of a language barrier (I think the family was from a old Easter Block country) the doctors did not properly diagnose. The symptoms for lead poisoning are similar to the flu and other "normal" infant conditions. The autopsy showed the baby had a level of 300 (whatever the units are)
> 
> Now to be flippant to your post, is death long term enough ? (Sorry, couldn't resist)
> 
> With all I have studied lately, I am wondering if my ADD is heredity as I heve been lead to believe, or a product of my environment? My wife is also ADD, but our son is not.
> 
> Having been lead poisoned made a believer out of me. I come from a family whose mother poo poo's many such things. "Those kids in Roxbury were stupid BEFORE they chewed the window sills" Sounds like a severe case of denial to me.
> 
> Aaron, I can not convince you about lead dangers anymore than I could convince my father (rest his soul) that the JFK assassination involved more than a lone gunman. But I do ask that you study it thoroughly. There is much sh!t about it on the internet. Once you see all the evidence and case studies, I believe you will be convinced.


1 child?? I know 1 is too many but seriously no one has answered my question???


----------



## daArch

aaron61 said:


> 1 child?? I know 1 is too many but seriously no one has answered my question???



Actually Aaron, I thought I did answer your question:



> or even 1 person or child who is now suffering from lead poisoning


----------



## SterlingPainting

Aaron:

It is well known that lead and mercury are toxic substances...they are elements, but not meant to be in the framework of our bodies. 

Take molybdenum for example...without this element there would be no organisms alive higher than bacteria. And your daily intake is only around 0.24mg. You cannot survive without it. 

Think what would happen if you ate 1 mg of lead daily or mercury...


----------



## aaron61

I guess I'm just not expressing myself good enough or I'm not able to understand your explanations.I'm just under the presumption that if this is such a human tragedy their ought to be quite a large list of people with some very serious long term effects. Even you, Arch aren't sure what your exposure,and it sounds like yours was quite extreme, has done.


----------



## daArch

I guess Aaron, there are believers and non believers. Reminds me of many other health issues like DDT, nicotine, and so on.

I do believe this is not a hoax perpetrated by our gov't.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

parodi said:


> You will notice that my post did not question the validity of anything that you or your sources are claiming, nor did I question the seriousness of any child succumbing to lead poisoning. My point (again): "*If all of this is so serious a threat to human health, why then does it not carry a penalty of jail time as other crimes against life and limb do?"* I get your point, now will you consider mine?
> ?


It may be the same reason that smokers aren't thrown into jail (2nd hand smoke). It could be the same reason, mothers who drink too much during pregnancy aren't thrown into jail. It even could be similar to not arresting folks who pass on the flu/herpes/aids.

There are exceptions, but generally, we do not throw people in jail for the above.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

parodi said:


> You see, the problem I have with this lead law is that is gets the federal government into the $$$$ pie as if there were already a civil proceeding and settlement instead of statute infraction. A state like Ohio fines you $100 for the speeding and if you cause permanent damage to a person you hit with your car, the courts then settle that dollar amount of damage. That's why the state of Ohio doesn't fine you $500,000 for speeding even if you made someone a paraplegic and even if a court might award the victim more than that sum. Where does the federal government get off charging such an excessive fine for a violation which *MAY* (not even certainly) cause personal injury? (Amendment VIII prohibits the federal government from imposing excessive bail, excessive fines or cruel and unusual punishments.) What are we in for next....indentured servitude for those not able to pay?


If this is your key point (amount of the fine), I have no problem with it.

It is a separate issue from whether we're poisoning people or not though.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

aaron61 said:


> I guess I'm just not expressing myself good enough or I'm not able to understand your explanations.I'm just under the presumption that if this is such a human tragedy their ought to be quite a large list of people with some very serious long term effects. Even you, Arch aren't sure what your exposure,and it sounds like yours was quite extreme, has done.


Where are the numbers of people with headaches? Where are the numbers of people who tell a lie each day? Where is the list of people who help deliver 2nd hand smoke?

Just because you don't keep a list of the number of people who help deliver 2nd hand smoke ... doesn't mean no one is doing it.

On the issue of lead, what they do is take a sampling. Measure the blood lead levels of 1000 children. Find the percent of children that have 5 mcg/dL or higher. Apply that percentage to the number of children in America. You now have a rough idea of the problem.

Take a dust sample after a remodel. Floor equals 250 mcg/ft2? Check family's lead blood level. Do this on 100 homes. You now can relate 250 mcg/ft2 to lead blood level.

You can continue with this science/research/math until one realizes that there is _quite a large list of people with some very serious long term effects_. What is serious to you? Not sure what your perspective is.

You could also say that _lead paint poisoning affects over 1 million children today_ as the EPA mentions.

Long story short ... we have numbers from scientist/researchers/doctors.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

I just wanted to re-emphasis that I'm not a tree hugger (anywhere close to it). I totally dislike the government involvement. I'm a natural skeptic.

I thought this lead poisoning was a bunch of bull! That is, until I studied the matter on my own. If I hadn't researched/studied on the subject on my own ... I still would be thinking it is a bunch of ____.

Do I wish they kept in the opt-out, yep. Adults can decide if they want to poison themselves or not (smoking, lead ....). Would I have done things differently then the EPA did, yep.


----------



## aaron61

Dean CRCNA said:


> Where are the numbers of people with headaches? Where are the numbers of people who tell a lie each day? Where is the list of people who help deliver 2nd hand smoke?
> 
> Just because you don't keep a list of the number of people who help deliver 2nd hand smoke ... doesn't mean no one is doing it.
> 
> On the issue of lead, what they do is take a sampling. Measure the blood lead levels of 1000 children. Find the percent of children that have 5 mcg/dL or higher. Apply that percentage to the number of children in America. You now have a rough idea of the problem.
> 
> Take a dust sample after a remodel. Floor equals 250 mcg/ft2? Check family's lead blood level. Do this on 100 homes. You now can relate 250 mcg/ft2 to lead blood level.
> 
> You can continue with this science/research/math until one realizes that there is _quite a large list of people with some very serious long term effects_. What is serious to you? Not sure what your perspective is.
> 
> You could also say that _lead paint poisoning affects over 1 million children today_ as the EPA mentions.
> 
> Long story short ... we have numbers from scientist/researchers/doctors.


That's apples & oranges...let's deal with what we are talking about.You can show me people with lung cacer. That is a result! Where are the results for lead?????


----------



## Dean CRCNA

aaron61 said:


> That's apples & oranges...let's deal with what we are talking about.You can show me people with lung cacer. That is a result! Where are the results for lead?????


Well, we know 250,000 children under 6 have blood levels over 10 mcg/dL http://www.cdc.gov/lead/. If we add children 6 years an older + all the adults, it would seem it would be in the millions.

Of course, EPA says over a million kids affected by lead based paint http://www.epa.gov/lead/. Add in teenagers and adults ... still pretty high.

Add in the less then 10 mcg/dL children and it goes a lot higher.

But let's play fair ... show me your numbers of the amount of people who are not affected at all by lead. Surely you can find these numbers


----------



## Dean CRCNA

aaron61 said:


> That's apples & oranges...let's deal with what we are talking about.*You can show me people with lung cacer*. That is a result! Where are the results for lead?????


No, I can't show you the people with lung cancer. As we all know, many people have lung cancer and they don't know it ... at least yet.


----------



## aaron61

Dean CRCNA said:


> Well, we know 250,000 children under 6 have blood levels over 10 mcg/dL http://www.cdc.gov/lead/. If we add children 6 years an older + all the adults, it would seem it would be in the millions.
> 
> Of course, EPA says over a million kids affected by lead based paint http://www.epa.gov/lead/. Add in teenagers and adults ... still pretty high.
> 
> Add in the less then 10 mcg/dL children and it goes a lot higher.
> 
> But let's play fair ... show me your numbers of the amount of people who are not affected at all by lead. Surely you can find these numbers


I'm not sure I understand what showing those who aren't affected even means???? Again you state lead levels but what are the proven affects??
Smoking = lung cancer/over eating=fat/asbestos= mesothelioma/ etc.... these are proven,right?


----------



## daArch

Aaron, 

I was thinking about this today. At one point you were saying that we were not understanding your position and questions. I began to wonder if I had your position wrong.

So a couple of questions:

Do you NOT believe that there is a real danger imposed on the human body by lead?

Do you NOT believe that children under six are affected by lead many times greater than adults?

Do you NOT believe the number of people affected by lead is great enough to warrant such a program.

I really want to understand your position correctly. 

I do know you will follow the law, so that is not an issue here.


----------



## daArch

aaron61 said:


> I'm not sure I understand what showing those who aren't affected even means???? Again you state lead levels but what are the proven affects??
> Smoking = lung cancer/over eating=fat/asbestos= mesothelioma/ etc.... these are proven,right?


all around the internet one can find studies.

Start with this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning


----------



## vermontpainter

aaron61 said:


> That's apples & oranges...let's deal with what we are talking about.You can show me people with lung cacer. That is a result! Where are the results for lead?????


The symptoms are so common. I feel like I have lead poisoning every morning before I have my first gallon of coffee. Most people just assume its ordinary crap and dont seek out a blood test to look for it, would be my guess. There is likely not enough empirical data to establish that RRP was born of a true threat to human health, but it would be difficult to deny its dangers. 

Believe me, I'm not liking the confusion and befuddled implementation of it so far, but I think most pros agree that its got enough potential teeth to it to merit our attention.


----------



## aaron61

My position is I don't know???? Can you tell me what it did to you and what the long term affects have been?? 
Please refer back to my post #51.In all seriousness I'm beginning to feel like a moron! 
If every one tells me that cheese sandwiches are bad for you and we find large quantities of cheese in childrens systems so what...What are the results of having to much cheese in your system??
Again Arch,what have been the affects on you??
I'm not trying to say gov. conspiracy but I am thinking this is directed the wrong way.


----------



## aaron61

:surrender:I surrender....


----------



## vermontpainter

aaron61 said:


> My position is I don't know???? Can you tell me what it did to you and what the long term affects have been??
> Please refer back to my post #51.In all seriousness I'm beginning to feel like a moron!
> If every one tells me that cheese sandwiches are bad for you and we find large quantities of cheese in childrens systems so what...What are the results of having to much cheese in your system??
> Again Arch,what have been the affects on you??
> I'm not trying to say gov. conspiracy but I am thinking this is directed the wrong way.


I know what you mean Aaron, and I am somewhat bothered by what I think is similar concern. 

To use a more extreme example. Drunk Driving. I have never been personally affected by it. But its a law that is generally accepted as being in the interest of the greater good of the greater number. I do know that in my area there are alot of pre78s. The majority of them, to my knowledge, are rentals. Ergo, in my opinion, property managers ought to be held to this stuff more than we are. But then, who will the property managers call to come in and do it?


----------



## daArch

Aaron,

Do not surrender for the sake of surrendering. Others may have as many or more doubts than you. As they said in school, "If you don't ask questions, you can't learn". You are the only one asking, yet others are learning. 

And I like how we all are remaining respectful.

I think I answered how my toxic levels affected me. I suffered from brief yet high exposure and the effects of that type of poisoning can be different from chronic exposure. I did suffer from headaches, lethargy, muscle pains, metallic type of taste, kidney pains, but I can't remember if I suffered memory loss :whistling2:

My partner was definitely more irritable than normal (and he was a cranky little sh!t)

Read the link I posted to Wikipedia. It's long and includes lots of historical facts.


----------



## aaron61

The Wiki was probably the best info I've seen. As a matter of fact I posted a link on my website.
But your long term effects sound kinda like my average day in the 1980's.
Work all day,hit the bar you know the rest. Has anyone gone postal from lead poisoning like some of the drugs they peddle on TV 24/7. I swear to God seen 1 last night that said side effects may be thoughts of suicide!!!! WTF!!!!! Where's their fine??


----------



## daArch

Nope, not me, never hit a bar after work and then.....

Interesting you mention that, our instructor while describing the adult symptoms said that those who feel fatigued after a day of work I ( I assumed he was talking about with lead exposure) were feeling the effects of the lead.

He did not beat around the bush about this, or state it as an "opinion". He stated it as fact. I took it with a grain of salt, but understood his point.


----------



## aaron61

daArch said:


> Nope, not me, never hit a bar after work and then.....
> 
> Interesting you mention that, our instructor while describing the adult symptoms said that those who feel fatigued after a day of work I ( I assumed he was talking about with lead exposure) were feeling the effects of the lead.
> 
> He did not beat around the bush about this, or state it as an "opinion". He stated it as fact. I took it with a grain of salt, but understood his point.


I'm pretty sure that after 8 hours of climbing ladders & painting most all would feel fatigued!
That is also from lead??


----------



## Dean CRCNA

Aaron,

You mentioned "smoking=lung cancer", as an example of you wanting to know specifics of lead poisoning.

If I were to put it as your example, I would say "*lead poisoning = brain dysfunction*". It does other stuff, but to stay with your example, this would be a good relationship.

Memory loss, behavior changes, personality changes, disruption of brain signals, sometimes ADD/ADHD, future problems of Alzheimer/Dementia ... etc.

Lead doesn't dissolve once in the body, so once it has done it's thing to the nervous system and soft tissue ... 95% gets stored in the bone for decades. Thinning of bone and/or breaking of bones can send lead back into the system to do it's thing again.


----------



## aaron61

Dean CRCNA said:


> Aaron,
> 
> You mentioned "smoking=lung cancer", as an example of you wanting to know specifics of lead poisoning.
> 
> If I were to put it as your example, I would say "*lead poisoning = brain dysfunction*". It does other stuff, but to stay with your example, this would be a good relationship.
> 
> Memory loss, behavior changes, personality changes, disruption of brain signals, sometimes ADD/ADHD, future problems of Alzheimer/Dementia ... etc.
> 
> Lead doesn't dissolve once in the body, so once it has done it's thing to the nervous system and soft tissue ... 95% gets stored in the bone for decades. Thinning of bone and/or breaking of bones can send lead back into the system to do it's thing again.


But we do have examples of this right, like Jane Doe has Alzheimer directly linked to lead poisoning or Mr Jones has a person ality change directly linked to lead poisoning or is this hypothetical,like,can,might,could.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

aaron61 said:


> But we do have examples of this right, like Jane Doe has Alzheimer directly linked to lead poisoning or Mr Jones has a person ality change directly linked to lead poisoning or is this hypothetical,like,can,might,could.


Actually, I believe lung cancer has a _hypothetical, like, can, might, could_, but it is good enough for you to believe that smoking = lung cancer. I believe smoking can cause lung cancer too. Science hasn't given a direct link, but come on ... common sense! If a high percentage of people who have lung cancer, smoke ... it only makes reasonable sense to an intelligent person.

Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer. Not every lung cancer is from people who smoke. But a good percentage of lung cancer patients ... have smoked a long time.

Same goes with lead poisoning. New studies coming out are showing more and more discoveries.


----------



## aaron61

aaron61 said:


> But we do have examples of this right, like Jane Doe has Alzheimer directly linked to lead poisoning or Mr Jones has a person ality change directly linked to lead poisoning or is this hypothetical,like,can,might,could.


Could 1 of you address this for me please.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

aaron61 said:


> Could 1 of you address this for me please.


One word ... "google.com"

The info you want is all over the place.


----------



## daArch

aaron61 said:


> I'm pretty sure that after 8 hours of climbing ladders & painting most all would feel fatigued!
> That is also from lead??


At age 60, yes. Hell, I feel fatigued after drinking a cup of coffee


----------



## Last Craftsman

I think what is a more important debate than whether or not lead is damaging, is can we come up with more realistic procedures to remove it?

The procedures that have been devised are ridiculous.

The expenditure/return ratio is horrible.

My biggest problem with the procedures that they are ABSOLUTIST in nature.

I think a procedure A which captures 98% of the lead that used to escape into the environment and has an expenditure value of Z, is much more realistic and helpful than a procedure B which captures 99.5% of the lead that used to escape into the environment, but which has an expenditure value of Z *multiplied* by a factor of FOUR.

Now I use those figures speculatively, I don't know exactly what the ratio is. Maybe it's a factor of 3 or even 2, but the point remains the same.

Building a plastic cocoon is absurd. And is also not great for the environment either.

I bet the petroleum industry loves it though. :yes:

-----------------

And the law is being applied with too wide of a brush. If I lightly sand a surface which has been determined has lead paint 4 layers down, and don't disturb the lead, I have to use the same procedure as though I am disturbing the lead surface directly.

-----------------

Even when you contain dust, workers are repeatedly exposed to it.

If you wrap plastic around the outside of the scaffolding, what happens to all the scaffold boards you walk on?

How do workers avoid getting that dust all over themselves and the environment when removing the plastic and scaffolding?

Should they use new boards every time? Should they have a certified board cleaning firm come clean the boards?

etc.

----------------

We need to be developing strategies which *CAPTURE THE DUST AT THE SOURCE WHEN IT IS BEING CREATED.*

Vacuums, vacuum shrouding, peel away, etc.

For example what about a clear box that is pressed against the side of the house, which has a vacuum hose attached to it, and the vacuum is ALWAYS creating a negative flow where the box contacts the house.

There is a glove where someone can insert their arm into the box while holding a scraper to remove paint. All large chips come off with no problem, and can be contained in the box, and any dust created would be continually sucked into the vacuum system.

You would need a way to hold the weight of the box against the wall. Several come to mind.

All dust that is released from the scraping goes DIRECTLY into the vacuum containment system. You could even wipe down the surface before moving the box to the next section to be worked on.

This would be MUCH MORE effective than building a huge tent around a house.

That is just one example of many that come to mind as a method to continually capture dust from a surface as it is made, instead of trying to contain the dust with a huge plastic tent.

This protects workers and occupants much more effectively.

------------------

What about scrapers that have vacuum hoses attached DIRECTLY underneath the scraper? So that as you open up a blister or bubble, the significant MAJORITY of the dust will be captured immediately?

Alternate with a spray bottle to keep the surface wet.

Have disposable sheeting on the ground to capture any large chips which pop off.

------------------

A lot of techniques come to mind.

On exteriors, this whole tenting thing is ridiculous, and I am not convinced that a LOT of dust doesn't escape during the removal of the plastic and other objects exposed in the containment area.

We should be able to use some direct capture vacuum techniques on interiors as well.

If I need to remove several large areas of paint that are failing from failing plaster underneath, it is still more effective to create a direct vacuum perimeter and carefully remove the material, than to tent everything off, and then just go scraping haphazardly while shooting dust all over the inside of the entire containment area.

What happens every time the workers walk through the plastic to go out of the containment area? They have dust all over their bodies, and there is dust ALL OVER the plastic hanging over the door, doesn't that escape the containment area?

If you capture the dust WHILE it is being created and BEFORE it shoots all over the place, how is this not better?

----------------

While working inside, it still would be good to seal off doors, but I think creating a containment area, and then contaminating the entire area with lead dust makes NO sense.

I think it is better to prevent the dust from ever entering the environment in the first place.

-----------------

I think it would be much better to design a lot of procedures/tool tools based on always having a Hepa vac removing the dust, then have an effective method of emptying the Hepa vacs, ( perhaps even at a certified location ), and having the vacuums washed everytime they are emptied.

-----------------

Also a good idea might be to have a large air filter running continously in the containment area while removing the leadbased paint to capture stray dust that might excape the direct vacuum attachments.

I think even just with the direct vacuum perimter immediately adjacent to the surface, one could capture 98% of the dust that would escape.

And that would be a HUGE improvement over the old method which a lot of contractors used which was to simply let it fly all over the place.

-----------------

Then you could use the hepa vac, and or some type of large static type dust mop, and clean any surfaces which may have been contaminated inside the containment area. Obviously you would have covered any furnishings which could not be removed.

Then you could pay $100 for a certified inspector to come along with some kind of expensive testing equipment that would make it easy for him to test all surfaces inside the containment area, to verify that the area was lead safe.

------------------

The bottom line is in order to make these procedures effective, we need to get real, and come with much more streamlined and efficient methods for the removal of lead based paint, and the verification that the area is safe.

We also need to come up with a few more levels of discrimination that are comensurate for the varying types of lead removal scenarios/dangers, instead of just painting all types of lead removal with the same brush and requiring all procedures to fall under one umbrella.

We also need to not obsess over requiring a standard/procedure which is 4 times more diffiucult and expensive than a standard/procedure which is 4 times less difficult and but leaves an extra 2% of lead particles unnaccounted for by comparison.

Making the logistics and cost of removal too excessive will actually cause much more skirting of the law, and much more "opting out" by the homeowners, and much more procrastination of HO while lead paint chips keep falling off of their house and contaminating the envrionment.

What about when homeowners are required to evacuate the premises for the duration of the work? That is not very likely. How many homewners can afford to do that AND pay for the renovation, AND pay for the extra procedures required by RRP?

There are a lot of situations and classifications covered in the RRP that just are not realistic.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

Last Craftsman,

I agree with most of your post and (in my opinion), so does the EPA.

If you read the rule itself, you will find that a minimum amount of containment is required. 6 feet out of plastic on the floor from the area you are working on (interior). 10 feet out of plastic on the ground from the area you are working on (exterior).

If you are going to make a big dusty mess, than you would want to take more precautions (closed containment, disposable suits ... etc). However, if you keep the dust down (wet area, use HEPA attachments ... etc) ... just do the minimums.

I think you are thinking that a ton of stuff needs to be done. If you read the training manual (book) it gives recommendations. If you read the rule itself ... you will see the minimum requirements.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Dean CRCNA said:


> I think you are thinking that a ton of stuff needs to be done. If you read the training manual (book) it gives recommendations. If you read the rule itself ... you will see the minimum requirements.



What you have described is much, much less intensive that anything I have read. Could you please direct me to the rule specifically you speak of?

I have read quite a bit at the EPA website, including this document:

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/rrp_8hr_studentmanual_feb09.pdf

I have read several articles on the topic from people who have interpreted the new laws, and several posts here from people who have interpreted the new laws and none of it sounds even close to as simple as what you just described.

-------------

I am all ears. Please direct me to the minimum requirements you described, and the EPA's requirement for how to classify which procedures need to be used for varying types of renovation projects.

Thanks.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Dean CRCNA said:


> If you are going to make a big dusty mess, than you would want to take more precautions (closed containment, disposable suits ... etc). However, if you keep the dust down (wet area, use HEPA attachments ... etc) ... just do the minimums.


I don't know how to quantify what the EPA considers "a big dusty mess", or not.

This is what I was referring to when I asked if you could direct me to the EPA's requirements for classifying the different types of requirements for different renovation projects.

Thanks.


----------



## Dean CRCNA

Last Craftsman said:


> What you have described is much, much less intensive that anything I have read. Could you please direct me to the rule specifically you speak of?
> 
> I have read quite a bit at the EPA website, including this document:
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/rrp_8hr_studentmanual_feb09.pdf
> 
> I have read several articles on the topic from people who have interpreted the new laws, and several posts here from people who have interpreted the new laws and none of it sounds even close to as simple as what you just described.
> 
> -------------
> 
> I am all ears. Please direct me to the minimum requirements you described, and the EPA's requirement for how to classify which procedures need to be used for varying types of renovation projects.
> 
> Thanks.


_Note: We are talking about containment minimums._

Here is the rule itself http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...gn=div5&view=text&node=40:30.0.1.1.13&idno=40

Read 745.85

The trick to understanding the minimums, is to understand "work area".

In the handbook you mentioned, it also talks about this minimum.

The work area (interior) is 6 feet from where you are working (as a minimum).

- If you have furniture in the "work area" ... remove or cover.
- If you have duct in the "work area" ... cover it.
- If you have a window in the "work area" ... close it. If you have a door in the "work area" cover it in plastic.
- cover floors in the "work area"
- clean your tools
- put up a sign

If you don't have furniture, duct, door, window in the work area ... all you need to do it put plastic on the floor 6' out ... put up a sign and clean your tools.


----------



## Last Craftsman

Dean CRCNA said:


> The work area (interior) is 6 feet from where you are working (as a minimum).
> 
> - If you have furniture in the "work area" ... remove or cover.
> - If you have duct in the "work area" ... cover it.
> - If you have a window in the "work area" ... close it. If you have a door in the "work area" cover it in plastic.
> - cover floors in the "work area"
> - clean your tools
> - put up a sign
> 
> If you don't have furniture, duct, door, window in the work area ... all you need to do it put plastic on the floor 6' out ... put up a sign and clean your tools.



Dean, I appreciate the link. I have skimmed through this information before. 
But using your confidence as a guide I did interpret it to be somewhat less excessive than the first time around.

But I still see ultimately the same problem when confronted with the following wording such as this:

"in the work area 6 feet beyond the perimeter of surfaces undergoing renovation or a sufficient distance to contain the dust, whichever is greater."

The RRP discusses repeatedly that "dust is the problem", and specifically HEPA is required to catch very fine particles, and that the particles can travel all over the place: 

"A Little Dust Goes a Long Way
• You can’t see it.
• It’s hard to sweep up.
• And, it travels.
One gram of lead-based paint can
contaminate a large area!"

I don't see how 6 feet from a wall would be "sufficient distance" when you are referring to particles of that scale.

Especially on the outside, most of the houses in my area have another house/property line within 10 feet on at least one side of the house, so that means vertical containment.

The RRP is contradictory even with the 10 foot regulation on outsides because is says this:

"(C) Cover the ground with plastic sheeting or other disposable impermeable material extending 10 feet beyond the perimeter of surfaces undergoing renovation or a sufficient distance to collect falling paint debris, whichever is greater"

I don't know if the people who designed the rules have ever scraped a house or not, but "whichever is greater" is the appropriate answer.

If you are 20-30 up in the air, scraping, chips and other debris fall way outside a 10 foot distance from the wall. Especially if there is wind.

But of course I have read somewhere on the EPA website that I don't have a direct link to which says "whenever possible, don't work in the wind".

When is that possible exactly? If we can't paint when it is raining, and we can't paint when it is windy, when can we paint?

----------------

We are to close all windows 20 feet from the work area. It was vague on whether this is required for adjacent properties.

I have to assume that if we don't want dust going into a window 20 feet from the work area on out clients property, that we don't want dust going into a window 20 feet from the work area on the neighbors proprty.

Will we be required to coordinate with them to close their windows as well?

What if the neighboring property is a multiple dwelling unit? Will we be coordinating with all of those people?

Will we be required to clean the surfaces of adjacent properties as well?

Will the neighbors be calling the 1-800-numbers to come have their surfaces/soil tested as well?

There is so much potential for getting bogged down. 

----------------

Even if you only put plastic sheeting on the ground outside.

This is very difficult. Plastic sheeting doesn't like to go up over and around bushes. It doesn't like to go up over and around fences or handrails. Partial decks, freestanding garages etc.

The pictures in the EPA manuals show a nice open front yard, with a completely featureless flat face house, and nice level level yard with no obstructions extending out in all directions.

Everybody doesn't live in Kansas you know.

None of the houses in my area fit that description.

I could literally drive for a mile in any direction and not even find ONE house that has featureless sides, and a huge open level yard with no neighbors.

------------------

Plastic is not the answer.


Plastic sheeting kills plants. 

It's slippery enough when it is dry, and I wouldn't trust a ladder placed on it, but when it's wet, forget about it.

And what happens when it rains? Which can be frequent.

it creates huge lakes and pools contaminated with lead dust. I trust my skin to hold out dry lead particles long enough that I can vacuum them off, more than I trust water permeated with lead which can just go directly into my skin.

Rain will completely yank plastic off where it is attached to a house.

Not to mention what wind does to plastic while working on a house.

-----------------

I could see inside, but outside, it's a retarded solution to the problem.

And for my taste the wording is too vague as to when "vertical containment" is required.

There are too many situations in my area where the proximity of adjacent buildings and or property would come into question.

And with the whole 1-800 frenzy that will be going on, you will be hard pressed to work in a neighborhood where there isn't at least one neighbor who once they find out there is some kind of power they didn't know they had, their first impulse will be to simply utilize that power, and a great deal of time will be spent either dealing with those people directly, or dealing with the inspectors whom they call.

-----------------

It is all too vague and nebulous for my taste currently.

Our company has one person who is certified, and who has taken all the necessary classes to be in compliance.

That enables us to be in compliance with the actual assessment of whether or not a particular project requires adhering to the new procedures.

For this season at least we are going to avoid taking any jobs that require implementing the new procedures.

Our plan is that hopefully a lot of the kinks in the system will get worked out in this first season. And any gray areas will get defined as contractors run tino problems, and hopefully next year things will be less vague and risky on exactly how to go about being in complaince.


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## Dean CRCNA

LC,

You said, "_For this season at least we are going to avoid taking any jobs that require implementing the new procedures_". 

Because of this, I won't go into great detail of your post. However, once you start doing RRP jobs ... you learn faster and easier ways. Each job has it's own differences. When the time comes that you do your first RRP, you should post it and we can all brain storm on the best approach.

My opinion is that exterior painting a peeling/chipping exterior is one of the hardest and most costly RRP jobs. A message board suggestion, would be for everyone to post their project and let us all learn from each other.

I've done multiple RRP jobs. You learn a lot with each one that you do.


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## Allison

Dean CRCNA said:


> I'm a contractor who took the Renovator course and also took a lead inspector course. In the lead inspector course, we went in a lot more detail about lead dust poisoning (lead based paints).
> 
> Now, I know a lot of you guys ate lead based paint chips for cereal and drank white lead based paint as baby milk growing up . I also know that the majority of contractors don't think this lead poisoning stuff should be a fuss.
> 
> However, doctors, scientist, researchers, hospitals say there is a problem!
> 
> My question is ... why do doctors/scientist/researchers/hospitals say there is a big problem and contractors don't think there is.
> 
> I think the big divergence, is that contractors (and some homeowners) rely on what they've seen.
> 
> What some contractors may not realize, is that the VAST MAJORITY of lead damage ... can't be really seen (unless you do research or studies).
> 
> When a person breathes in or swallows lead paint dust, the lead enters the blood stream. It first attacks the nervous system and then the soft tissue (brain, kidneys, heart ...) and cuts them down a couple of notches. Example: It lowers IQ ... doesn't make IQ go to zero
> 
> After it does it's damage to the nervous system and soft tissue ... 95% of the lead gets stored in the bone. Just waiting until you get old to start seeping out again.
> 
> It can cause a ton of problems and damage ... and you would never see a noticeable lead poisoning symptom.. You wouldn't know about it (but it still is doing it's thing).
> 
> Only when you get to the mid to high scale of blood lead levels do you actually start seeing noticeable symptoms. These would be things like a headache, tiredness, crankiness, flu like symptoms ...
> 
> A problem though with these symptoms at this mid to high levels, is that they mimic everyday life symptoms. If someone gets a headache ... they take aspirin. If they get constipated ... they take ex-lax. Feel like the flu? Take Tamiflu. All these folks don't go and get a lead blood test. It's a good thing too!!! If for all these years homeowners would have taken a lead blood test after we have scrapped and sanded paint ... we would have probably been sued so many times ... our head would spin.
> 
> The only time you really start hearing about lead poisoning is when you get into the higher ranges. This is because the person is dead.
> 
> So, just because you can't see the symptoms ... doesn't mean a lot of people aren't getting damaged.
> 
> my 2 cents (which is all it's worth)


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## Allison

I build Tiny Homes and I was exposed to lead over a 3 1/2 year. From the dust on the back of shiny need mirrored glass tiles as part of an ongoing art project

I am 55 years old and my first symptoms were my hands going numb, then I started getting really agitated at night when I was trying to sleep, at first I was misdiagnosed with carpal tunnel, then my feet started going numb and finally my leg started dragging. Both the internist and the neurologist were unable to properly diagnose me; it wasn’t until I went to an alternative doctor that he found I had off the charts lead poisoning. Today I am having this chelated out but I’m also having difficulty walking and I have energy fatigue.


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