# Toning with water based stain and clear coat?



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

So the homeowner wants a darker than existing color stain on trim throughout the house. Way too much to sand down so I am trying the gel stain route. I admit it's hard to make this stuff would look very good. Trying a brush than rag. I remember Holland? mentioning doing a toning coat with a bit of finish mixed in with the clear can help even out a blotchy stain job. I'm trying the minimize the amount of oil-based products on this job due to it being occupied, and I'm wondering if I try to tone with water based poly and stain is that something that anyone has had luck with? I don't think ill attempt toning if it has to be oil as i won't be able to spray oil in this house. Thanks for any feedback.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> So the homeowner wants a darker than existing color stain on trim throughout the house. Way too much to sand down so I am trying the gel stain route. I admit it's hard to make this stuff would look very good. Trying a brush than rag. I remember Holland? mentioning doing a toning coat with a bit of finish mixed in with the clear can help even out a blotchy stain job. I'm trying the minimize the amount of oil-based products on this job due to it being occupied, and I'm wondering if I try to tone with water based poly and stain is that something that anyone has had luck with? I don't think ill attempt toning if it has to be oil as i won't be able to spray oil in this house. Thanks for any feedback.


Dont use a rag, sand it good to 150 and use dry brushing technique with gel stain, works great very easy. Oil has a lot of open time to blend and you'll get somewhere 800sqft to a gallon.
If you want to try using a toner, use a dye like GF or transtint in a water based clear. Avoid pigments!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

This is a great question. I would like to know as well. Obviously compatability of products would be key. I tried spraying the Saman 2 in 1 product without success. Went on almost as a solid colour. Maybe a custom mix wood work best.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Dont use a rag, sand it good to 150 and use dry brushing technique with gel stain, works great very easy. Oil has a lot of open time to blend and you'll get somewhere 800sqft to a gallon.
> If you want to try using a toner, use a dye like GF or transtint in a water based clear. Avoid pigments!


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thx Coco. Maybe ill try the brush again on Monday. It seems like even with the dry brushing I was still getting the brush mark trails through the pieces. Maybe it wasn't dry enough..


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> This is a great question. I would like to know as well. Obviously compatability of products would be key. I tried spraying the Saman 2 in 1 product without success. Went on almost as a solid colour. Maybe a custom mix wood work best.


I'll let you know if I do an experimenting what i come up with. I'm using Old Masters and I know they've got some water based poly and I think they have water based stain as well. I was also wondering about toning as a brush or is that only a spray move?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> So the homeowner wants a darker than existing color stain on trim throughout the house. Way too much to sand down so I am trying the gel stain route. I admit it's hard to make this stuff would look very good. Trying a brush than rag. I remember Holland? mentioning doing a toning coat with a bit of finish mixed in with the clear can help even out a blotchy stain job. I'm trying the minimize the amount of oil-based products on this job due to it being occupied, and I'm wondering if I try to tone with water based poly and stain is that something that anyone has had luck with? I don't think ill attempt toning if it has to be oil as i won't be able to spray oil in this house. Thanks for any feedback.


Just remember, every layer you do will make it darker, so good to proceed with that in mind. The more layers the darker you can get, potentially.

I’ve only tinted with oil poly and oil based stain, so I can’t speak on mixing water-based stain and poly.


One option might be to Apply a couple (several) very very thin coats of gel stain with a rag, if you are having a tough time getting it to look good brushing it on. I think one coat will look bad, and will take a couple coats to get a decent finish.

Apply Gel stain with rag, then wipe it off right away. For subtlety (time permitting) you can do multiple thin coats, allowing it to dry between coats. This will create depth, and obscure blotchiness from previous layers.

Do one coat in whole house, come back next day and do another, until it looks good. Then clear. I like to put almost a haze of stain over the top, so it doesn’t look streaky. Just trying to tone it down by degrees, and softening under coats, without adding more streakiness/blotchiness.

Just brainstorming with you. *That’s how I restore damaged fiberglass doors. You can try foam brushes, chip brushes, and rags (with the grain) until you get an almost unnoticeable technique. Less is more.
I usually find 2-3 coats of gel stain layered like that can’t look good.

Example: first coat brushed on for dark base and look like wood grain brush marks, second 2 coats wiped on very thin (and excess removed) for tone, and to soften brush marks...
Could be done pretty quickly in a couple days if you can find a technique that produces acceptable results.


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Try using a foam brush if not allready doing it


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thx Coco. Maybe ill try the brush again on Monday. It seems like even with the dry brushing I was still getting the brush mark trails through the pieces. Maybe it wasn't dry enough..


from the photo it looks like its either not sanded enough for the stain to bite into or you just need to keep feathering with a dry soft natural bristle brush. I had good results with shipmates but not the corona oxhair blend which felt too heavy.

This is how I have done it in the past, I used 1 PINT of a custom old masters gel stain and basically did an entire wood package.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I’ll sometimes use amber or dewaxed shellac w/alcohol soluble aniline dye powders for toning...haven’t tried water soluble dyes added to waterborne clears. I’m also not particularly fond of the gel stain look..

Below is a wrapped floating console I fabricated and toned w/dye incorporated into shellac..










Before toning:


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> So the homeowner wants a darker than existing color stain on trim throughout the house. Way too much to sand down so I am trying the gel stain route. I admit it's hard to make this stuff would look very good. Trying a brush than rag. I remember Holland? mentioning doing a toning coat with a bit of finish mixed in with the clear can help even out a blotchy stain job. I'm trying the minimize the amount of oil-based products on this job due to it being occupied, and I'm wondering if I try to tone with water based poly and stain is that something that anyone has had luck with? I don't think ill attempt toning if it has to be oil as i won't be able to spray oil in this house. Thanks for any feedback.












The bench was too light, and I wanted to tone it down without changing it much. Also, there were so many knot holes, and they were so dark as to be distracting. So I just mixed a little oil based stain into oil based poly and sprayed three light coats until it was where I wanted it. I have used this method when trying to touch up tinted lacquer. Have not tried With WB, but will be following this thread.

Might be worth mentioning that I also did the same technique with the windows in this picture. There is a mix of pine and maple, and some of the veneers stained WAY different than everything else. I just shot a lightly tinted poly to try to unify it. (I masked them off and sprayed a light coat or two with an HVLP until everything looked more uniform).

Both window and bench were stained with oil based Poly with the same Chestnut colored Stain added.

(A note about color: One negative characteristic about using this technique that I have observed, is it has the undesirable effect of pronouncing the stain color more than it would if staining the wood directly, because the color is sitting on the surface and not in the wood. The Chestnut color, for example, took on a more distinct "orange" tone, as compared to the darker, browner color notes it took when staining the wood directly. This could be compensated for in theory by manually adding a hint of the missing blueish, brownish -or whatever- colorant into the stain.)


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Redux said:


> I’ll sometimes use amber or dewaxed shellac w/alcohol soluble aniline dye powders for toning...haven’t tried water soluble dyes added to waterborne clears. I’m also not particularly fond of the gel stain look..
> 
> Below is a wrapped floating console I fabricated and toned w/dye incorporated into shellac..
> 
> ...


I wonder if the "water soluble dyes added to waterborne clears" would work for brushing and spraying?
Beautiful console. Forget how nice Shellac can look when done right! How did you apply the shellac?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> I wonder if the "water soluble dyes added to waterborne clears" would work for brushing and spraying?
> Beautiful console. Forget how nice Shellac can look when done right! How did you apply the shellac?


GF has a YouTube video of toning with dye added to their waterborne clears, both brushed and sprayed..seems like it works well. 

I brushed the shellac toner in place rather than spraying it due to not wanting to remove the cabinet from my living room wall. I originally finished it in a blond shellac, but wanted to change it up to a more aged mahogany-like tone.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Just remember, every layer you do will make it darker, so good to proceed with that in mind. The more layers the darker you can get, potentially.
> 
> I’ve only tinted with oil poly and oil based stain, so I can’t speak on mixing water-based stain and poly.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detail Holland. What I'm gathering from you and the bit I did yesterday is it's definitely an art that takes a bit of finessing and practice. I think a second coat might be the ticket to clear up some of the splotchiness. 

I hadn't tried the foam brushes either, maybe that's a good medium between a bristle brush and a rag. I was getting it on so thick with the normal brush that it looked almost like a paint, and putting it on really thin was not darkening it all, so the middle ground was the splotchy finish I ended up with. Now that I got the first coat on with the splotchiness I can be heavier on the light areas and less on the dark, soften it by degrees as you say. Makes sense to me.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

propainterJ said:


> Try using a foam brush if not allready doing it


I hadn't tried phone thanks for the tip


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> from the photo it looks like its either not sanded enough for the stain to bite into or you just need to keep feathering with a dry soft natural bristle brush. I had good results with shipmates but not the corona oxhair blend which felt too heavy.
> 
> This is how I have done it in the past, I used 1 PINT of a custom old masters gel stain and basically did an entire wood package.


I will admit all I did was sand it with a medium drywall sponge to dull it down. I'll try the 150 as you recommended and see if that doesn't help out with the spread.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> from the photo it looks like its either not sanded enough for the stain to bite into or you just need to keep feathering with a dry soft natural bristle brush. I had good results with shipmates but not the corona oxhair blend which felt too heavy.
> 
> This is how I have done it in the past, I used 1 PINT of a custom old masters gel stain and basically did an entire wood package.


Was there a picture in that last post? Didn't seem to come through on my end at least


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Redux said:


> I’ll sometimes use amber or dewaxed shellac w/alcohol soluble aniline dye powders for toning...haven’t tried water soluble dyes added to waterborne clears. I’m also not particularly fond of the gel stain look..
> 
> Below is a wrapped floating console I fabricated and toned w/dye incorporated into shellac..
> 
> ...


Nice piece of work, the before picture is not working on my phone for some reason but the finished product is very slick-looking. I keep hearing about these dyes for toning, is this something I can get at my paint store or something I need to order online?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> View attachment 112067
> 
> 
> The bench was too light, and I wanted to tone it down without changing it much. Also, there were so many knot holes, and they were so dark as to be distracting. So I just mixed a little oil based stain into oil based poly and sprayed three light coats until it was where I wanted it. I have used this method when trying to touch up tinted lacquer. Have not tried With WB, but will be following this thread.
> ...


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks, good luck with current project. 
It’s a Breedlove.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Thanks, good luck with current project.
> It’s a Breedlove.


Thanks, should be a good learning experience
..I have a friend who swears by those Breedloves, nice players i hear


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I just finished a whole kitchen with this method. We did one thicker coat dry brushed and 2 coats Of Saman Waterbased clear over top. This may not be the look that some are going for but the client is happy with the outcome and I think it looks pretty cool. I'd like to fool around with this stuff a bit more for different looks..


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I just finished a whole kitchen with this method. We did one thicker coat dry brushed and 2 coats Of Saman Waterbased clear over top. This may not be the look that some are going for but the client is happy with the outcome and I think it looks pretty cool. I'd like to fool around with this stuff a bit more for different looks..


Hey Kevyn, I think that looks great. A couple questions: so for dry brushing are you laying it on thick at first and then coming back to tip it off with the dry brush right away? Also wondering was 24 hours enough time between stain and topcoat? Thanks


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Hey Kevyn, I think that looks great. A couple questions: so for dry brushing are you laying it on thick at first and then coming back to tip it off with the dry brush right away? Also wondering was 24 hours enough time between stain and topcoat? Thanks


Dry brushing, basically deposit a thin wet coat then brushing it out and blending. When using an oil gel stain if you keep brushing it out can almost completely eliminate brush marks.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Honestly, I think we were putting it on a little too thick resulting in more brush lines than anticipated. However we would lay an even coat over the whole thing, then let it sit for a couple minutes to set up, then get your dry brush and start pulling it back off keeping a dry rag to clean your brush off. I found if you dry brushed it too soon you would pull too much off. Also a little goes a long way. If using a water-based clear I would wait atleast 24-48 hours. In fact an oil clear would be better suited IMO but didn't want to spray oil..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Honestly, I think we were putting it on a little too thick resulting in more brush lines than anticipated. However we would lay an even coat over the whole thing, then let it sit for a couple minutes to set up, then get your dry brush and start pulling it back off keeping a dry rag to clean your brush off. I found if you dry brushed it too soon you would pull too much off. Also a little goes a long way. If using a water-based clear I would wait atleast 24-48 hours. In fact an oil clear would be better suited IMO but didn't want to spray oil..


Yes it looks like there is a lot of stain left on the surface. Another way to do this is to spray HVLP by fogging on a coat of stain, dont even worry about atomizing, then simply brush it out. Again I've found a soft light weight natural bristle to work very well. Heavier bodied brushes like oxhair blends I found to be too grabby with the gel stains.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Thanks for the help everyone, I'm getting some better results today with the 150 sanding ans using a dryer brush, seems to be blending a lot better..so far so good


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks for the help everyone, I'm getting some better results today with the 150 sanding ans using a dryer brush, seems to be blending a lot better..so far so good


Try working across the grain, offload excess material onto a rag, then feather back with the grain.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Minwax makes Polyshades tinted poly in both oil base and water base versions. With each additional coat the finish gets darker. They offer many different tints and you can vary the tone within each tint by the number of coats applied.

I met Norm Abrams at the National Hardware Show in Chicago about 30 years ago. He told me that he used only Minwax oil based poly on pine and maple to avoid blotching. He told me to use the number of coats required for the correct color, and if more coats were required for film build then use clear poly over the polyshades.

In any case, assuming you get good adhesion, the Polyshades is a perfect solution to this problem. Quite a bit of experimenting might be required to get the right final shade though. But once that is established, the process is just brush or spray and let dry.

Both matte and satin look a bit milky to my eye; the semi-gloss and gloss look good and cure very hard over time.





__





One-Step Stain & Finish







www.minwax.com





_Minwax® PolyShades®__ is an easy way to change the color of your currently stained or polyurethane finished wood. There’s no stripping or heavy sanding necessary to remove the old finish! Simply give it a light sanding with fine-grit sandpaper, remove sanding dust, and brush on a coat of PolyShades® (see step-by-step instructions provided in this Guide)._


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

In any case, I'm not really a fan of the toning look. I find it looks like a cheap Spar Varnish or something. Just personal opinion obviously. This is how our Gel Stain kitchen turned out. All in all I thinks it looks pretty cool and it was really fast. 1 coat Old Masters Gel Stain and 2 coats Saman Waterbased Polyurethane sprayed with HVLP. It more of a faux finish than a Stain really. I didn't charge much more than just a repaint.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> In any case, I'm not really a fan of the toning look. I find it looks like a cheap Spar Varnish or something. Just personal opinion obviously. This is how our Gel Stain kitchen turned out. All in all I thinks it looks pretty cool and it was really fast. 1 coat Old Masters Gel Stain and 2 coats Saman Waterbased Polyurethane sprayed with HVLP. It more of a faux finish than a Stain really. I didn't charge much more than just a repaint.


Looks great


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> In any case, I'm not really a fan of the toning look. I find it looks like a cheap Spar Varnish or something. Just personal opinion obviously. This is how our Gel Stain kitchen turned out. All in all I thinks it looks pretty cool and it was really fast. 1 coat Old Masters Gel Stain and 2 coats Saman Waterbased Polyurethane sprayed with HVLP. It more of a faux finish than a Stain really. I didn't charge much more than just a repaint.


Spar varnish is an exterior varnish (historically a marine varnish). I don’t see the connection between it and “toning”.

Your kitchen is an improvement over the original, but think you would have knocked it out of the park if you had sprayed a tinted clear, or figured out a way to spray the stain somehow, then clear it.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Spar varnish is an exterior varnish (historically a marine varnish). I don’t see the connection between it and “toning”.
> 
> Your kitchen is an improvement over the original, but think you would have knocked it out of the park if you had sprayed a tinted clear, or figured out a way to spray the stain somehow, then clear it.


 The Spar Varnishes have a tinted hue to them, similar to your picture of the bench you did. It's a just a different tamer look. Not my cup of tea.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

oliviamia131 said:


> You can remove or greatly lighten dye stain by using a chlorine bleach. Swimming pool chlorine will work but it's a little slow. Do not use Oxalic Acid which is sometime sold as "wood bleach". Oxalic acid is a bleach used to remove or lighten mineal stains but it will further set a dye stain.


Thanks, but this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Just sayin'.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Thanks, but this has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Just sayin'.


Its a bot account, they copy paste random things from other websites to look like a real person.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Its a bot account, they copy paste random things from other websites to look like a real person.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

What do these Robots want!? Is Skynet taking over again? I vote we get Sarah Conner on Staff.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> What do these Robots want!? Is Skynet taking over again? I vote we get Sarah Conner on Staff.


They make a few posts then come back later to edit them to contain whatever spam content


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