# Why not to use eggshell on ceiling



## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I'm (was)thinking about bidding a smooth finish ceiling with windows all around. I have tried to talk the nice millionaires that it will be nothing but problems. Well, I can't, so I'm looking for a good article that might be enlighting to them to read after some other sad painter paints their ceiling, and they are looking for something to read while their lawyer is busy preparing a case against the sad painter. Now you might not this this no big deal, but just think a living room that is around , 1,500sf all open, all looking to the south with 5'x8' windows all around
So if you know of a article that talks about sheen problems on smooth ceiling, with lighting issues. Let me know


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I know you are just bored and solicited them to make their ceilings look shiny and new..

cashmere low luster is between a flat and eggshell. I don't know why they would want that on their ceiling though.. you know what? I would just have them okay gloss. That way you don't have to pussyfoot around the sheen issue.. all in feet first. Put up or shut up. Go big or stay home..


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Like most very rich people they know what is best.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Like most very rich people they know what is best.


Well then give em a gloss enamel ceiling and tell them your welcome....


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

/\ Exactly!!


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Well,they want eggshell sheen, and thats all they will take. It is a level 4 finish and they will not do a level five so that sucks. With all the light coming in it's going to be hideous.


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## painttofish (Aug 28, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> Well,they want eggshell sheen, and thats all they will take. It is a level 4 finish and they will not do a level five so that sucks. With all the light coming in it's going to be hideous.


Educate them, have them sign off, give them what they want. It can be as simple as that. The economy can dictate sensibility in these times.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Well,they want eggshell sheen, and thats all they will take. It is a level 4 finish and they will not do a level five so that sucks. With all the light coming in it's going to be hideous.


so contract should say that john.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

painttofish said:


> Educate them, have them sign off, give them what they want. It can be as simple as that. The economy can dictate sensibility in these times.


I agree with this post, only thing I would add in is to make clear that you personally think it would look better the usual way and if they decide they do not like it you will gladly redo it for them for your normal rate.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

The biggest issue for you is, what YOUR paintjob looks like.

If the eggshell reveals imperfections in the drywall/taping, that wont be your fault.

Explain that ahead of time, that it will reveal imperfections. Explain that you will need to make a note of that in the contract.

Also explain that with eggshell on a large ceiling, it is very difficult to keep a wet edge because no matter where you break it off, you wind up rolling into dry/tacky paint. Tell them you will have to write that in the contract that those areas may be visible.

Then I would spray and backroll the ceiling using two guys.

I would also make it really cold in there, and put some XIM in the paint to keep the paint from setting up so fast. Also, I would not use more than a 3/8 inch nap, so you aren't having to fuss around as much making sure the actual nap looks good.

Also, since you are using eggshell, the ceiling cant be touched up any way, so you might as well spray the last coat without backrolling, this will ensure that you don't have any dry spots from rollers hitting dry paint.

If you can't spray in there, I would get two guys both with 18 inch rollers, and start in the same place and both work one direction, possibly with one guy a few feet ahead of the other if you are bumping into each other's rollers.

If you can let your roller come to a stop without feathering it, and go back the other direction, that will be fastest/best, but if that causes a ridge that can be seen, you will have to feather it on each pass, and that should be one persons job, the person who is trailing behind a few feet should feather into the wet paint left by the other painter on every pass.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Wait did you say 1500 sqaure feet? What are the actual dimensions of the ceiling? How is the 1500 square feet laid out?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Well,they want eggshell sheen, and thats all they will take. It is a level 4 finish and they will not do a level five so that sucks. With all the light coming in it's going to be hideous.


 
Why would a level4 be any differant than a level5???

Serious question


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

It's not a square.there are a lot of walls in this room. this is a one floor pent house with 4400 sf, the main liv room/ dinning room kit are all open and together.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Why would a level4 be any differant than a level5???
> 
> Serious question


Maybe you can help me out on this one. I know that there is not very much difference between the level 4 and 5, but I do need all the help I can get on this one. Level 4 is suppose to be good enough for flat paint, and your suppose to use level 5 for any gloss, so what is the difference that you have seen in the two levels?


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> Maybe you can help me out on this one. I know that there is not very much difference between the level 4 and 5, but I do need all the help I can get on this one. Level 4 is suppose to be good enough for flat paint, and your suppose to use level 5 for any gloss, so what is the difference that you have seen in the two levels?


 
I feel like I am a broken record on this one. Level4 is just level 4,,,, level5 was introduced to try to get drywall up to where it could be just sprayed and gone on with. It is an attempt to get drywall up to the level that anything put on it, will look and feel the same. 

Look at it like this,,, if your guy sprays the wall, and gets a bunch of dust, by not sweeping or cover the floor, or whatever, and you come in the next day and FEEL it,,, you will have him sand the wall and do it over (I am assumeing this) 

Level5 is an attempt to get the drywall to the point that you don't have to deal with the fact that drywall paper and drywall mud joints are two differant things,,, either way, the wall has to be sanded ,,,, which brings out the reality of level4 &5, if you roll the primer on (there it is) and then roll your first coat on then sand it before the finish coat, level5 is not needed AT ALL.

The reason (as a drywaller that does level5) that level5 has not caught on,, is ,,,,,, Well, the last level5 I did, the painter said, and I quote,,,,,,, this a level5, we don't have to touch the walls at all,,, just spray em and go on with it. 


Ya know???? 

I am not a pro painter, (wish I was,,, but everyone ought to know, that you got to roll and sand,,,,,, am I wrong???? I am teachable!!!!)


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think from a painter perspective, I never thought a Level 5 meant I could skip backrolling or sanding. To me, it means that the joints and stuff will all telegraph less through the finish since everything is buried in a drywall compound. No more difference in absorbency, no more texture difference between seams and the board, all issues that can affect the final appearance of a paint film. Even if the surface is backrolled and sanded.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't do a lot of new construction, but you are saying that you have to sand the primer after rolling it on, and then paint it?Why would you have to sand the primer? To me it looks like you would be adding sanding marks to the primer?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

johnpaint said:


> It's not a square.there are a lot of walls in this room. this is a one floor pent house with 4400 sf, the main liv room/ dinning room kit are all open and together.


How high is the ceiling, and is it vaulted?

It is really hard to establish a strategy not knowing how the ceiling is laid out.

So are you talking about the one room where the 3 rooms are joined?

If so what shape is the ceiling? Rectangle, square? L shaped?

You have to give us more to go on.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Just tell them that any sort of sheen/gloss on a ceiling looks "trailer park"... they'll go with flat.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> How high is the ceiling, and is it vaulted?
> 
> It is really hard to establish a strategy not knowing how the ceiling is laid out.
> 
> ...


I will see if I can upload a picture.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't know why it is, but it always winter when I get this kind of projects.I could use the work, but I don't need people yelling at me because of flashing issues I can't do anything about.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> I don't do a lot of new construction, but you are saying that you have to sand the primer after rolling it on, and then paint it?Why would you have to sand the primer? To me it looks like you would be adding sanding marks to the primer?


Because the drywall surface is rough after you apply primer. Even more so if the drywallers sanded too much on the face paper of the drywall (then you have a more work sanding).


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Because the drywall surface is rough after you apply primer. Even more so if the drywallers sanded too much on the face paper of the drywall (then you have a more work sanding).


Oh: I see that, this one has a level 4 which has mud on the complete surface.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

My bad, I thought only level 5 had that.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> The biggest issue for you is, what YOUR paintjob looks like.
> 
> If the eggshell reveals imperfections in the drywall/taping, that wont be your fault.
> 
> ...


XIM in the paint???????


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/johnpaint/PicturefromnewPanasonic025resized.jpg

there are two long hallways that inter on the left with smooth ceilling running the complete way all to the windows on the right.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

http://i275.photobucket


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

John,
Gets your paint rep involved have him write 2 specs. One for flat the other for low sheen. Along with warranties and pros and cons. That gives you back up later if needed, let's hope not. If you have a good relationship with your rep (I'm sure you do) he can make one sound better than the other. Rich people that are business people understand documents. But if their just spoiled rich then your hosed. A paper trail I vital for covering you azz. That's why email communication is good when debating or fighting.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

http://i275.photobucket

Sorry about the pictures


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I think from a painter perspective, I never thought a Level 5 meant I could skip backrolling or sanding. To me, it means that the joints and stuff will all telegraph less through the finish since everything is buried in a drywall compound. No more difference in absorbency, no more texture difference between seams and the board, all issues that can affect the final appearance of a paint film. Even if the surface is backrolled and sanded.


 Your thoughts are correct,, That is the idea behind level5, and it does what is should,,,, everything equal,,, It is a way to bring the texture of the wall into one thing (all the same). BUt primer that is rolled and then sanded, does the same thing (level5 is merely spraying joint compound and then sanding it). What we are striving for, is a uniform even surface, that is dust free and smooth, so,,,, if a wall is primed and rolled, then sanded before the next coat, we have attained an even uniform service. See,,,, spraying without rolling, sets you up for disaster,,,, If you do it that way, you are behind the 8ball for the rest of the job, trying to get the wall smooth flat and even.

I think that since priming is just the beginning of the job, too many people misunderstand its importance in setting the job to run right.

Personally, I use pro-mar 400 to prime with, tinted to the color of the paint to follow. Really any paint will prime new drywall,,, its only in re-model and stains that you really need a "real primer"

Just my opions,,, hope I haven't offended anyone

Peace


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I would not use paint as a primer, because it really not made to sand. All it does is ball up and ruin your sanding pads. Primer is made to sand and not ball up as much.I would think this would lead to a dis- ass- ter.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

johnpaint said:


> I'm (was)thinking about bidding a smooth finish ceiling with windows all around. I have tried to talk the nice millionaires that it will be nothing but problems. Well, I can't, so I'm looking for a good article that might be enlighting to them to read after some other sad painter paints their ceiling, and they are looking for something to read while their lawyer is busy preparing a case against the sad painter. Now you might not this this no big deal, but just think a living room that is around , 1,500sf all open, all looking to the south with 5'x8' windows all around
> So if you know of a article that talks about sheen problems on smooth ceiling, with lighting issues. Let me know


Roll perpendicular to the greatest entry of light. This will help to reduce the visibility of roller marks, or spray flash.

Give them what they want. The option to go flat is always there if things don't go right, provided they understand the repaint is an additional cost.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I should also add, that your rolling direction should be perpendicular to where the ceiling is primarily viewed from. I'm sure you know this already, so i'll go back into obscurity and continue sucking down the these Becks my wife bought for some reason.


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## Rob (Aug 9, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Personally, I use pro-mar 400 to prime with, tinted to the color of the paint to follow. Really any paint will prime new drywall,,, its only in re-model and stains that you really need a "real primer"
> 
> Just my opions,,, hope I haven't offended anyone
> 
> Peace


I like a high build primer to even things out, I wouldn't use paint to prime new drywall.
This is not the primer I use, but the pictures explain it better,
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/products/buildsol_intpaint.pdf


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## flowjo (Apr 25, 2009)

thats gonna look so terrible not only is it gonna show alot of imperfections its gonna totally close in that space flat gives the illusion of a spacious area adds a great deal to depth.

i find eggshells and semi gloss close in and cheapen the appearance i think flat ceilings and very low sheen walls is the only way to go and eggshell on trim and doors looks awesome 

just my opinion anyways


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Rob said:


> I like a high build primer to even things out, I wouldn't use paint to prime new drywall.
> This is not the primer I use, but the pictures explain it better,
> http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/products/buildsol_intpaint.pdf


I spend alot of time, argueing with other drywallers about symetrics. Its just a waste of time that we all like to do, ya know!!!

I did a new construction house about a year ago, we hung it, finished it (level 4) and then primed it with pro-mar,,, there was a hall between two bedrooms that had ceiling to floor windows, that let the sun shine down the hallway, brutally. Not a bit of flashing or another problem,,, why????,,, because a flunky like me ROLLED the primer on, then sanded it, then ROLLED the finish coat on. 

Like I said, we can talk about symatics all day long,,, in the end, its all about HOW DOES IT LOOK AFTER YOUR DONE !!!!

You can use more exspensive paint, a much more costly sprayer, better rollers,, and whatever, but you couldn't make it look any better (talking about the walls, my cutting in still sucks, okay?)

I rest my case ( I know i keep beating a dead horse,,, but I have been doing drywall ahead of painters since 1973, and the ONLY re-occuring problem, is the FLASHING of walls, with nothing BUT,, SPRAYED primer)


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> XIM in the paint???????



Well, I suppose you could use your XIM to mix Mojitos, but I prefer to put my XIM in the paint, which coincidentally is where they designed it to go!


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Last Craftsman said:


> Well, I suppose you could use your XIM to mix Mojitos, but I prefer to put my XIM in the paint, which coincidentally is where they designed it to go!


XIM makes a lot of stuff. I suspect you are referring to their excellent latex extender ?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

BrushJockey said:


> XIM makes a lot of stuff. I suspect you are referring to their excellent latex extender ?


Yeah. I knew what he meant. But I thought it would be more fun to toy with him. Is that bad?

:innocent:


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## Outback Painting (Nov 21, 2009)

*Why not use it.*



johnpaint said:


> I'm (was)thinking about bidding a smooth finish ceiling with windows all around. I have tried to talk the nice millionaires that it will be nothing but problems. Well, I can't, so I'm looking for a good article that might be enlighting to them to read after some other sad painter paints their ceiling, and they are looking for something to read while their lawyer is busy preparing a case against the sad painter. Now you might not this this no big deal, but just think a living room that is around , 1,500sf all open, all looking to the south with 5'x8' windows all around
> So if you know of a article that talks about sheen problems on smooth ceiling, with lighting issues. Let me know


Please don't think I'm using an aggressive tone here, but sometimes you need to listen to what the custom actually wants and make it work. Yes you have a lot a glancing light from the windows and the ceiling is very big! I would recommend you talk to your rep about seeing what paints they have that dry slow and self level. I think I saw someone had recommended cashmere low lustre from Sherwin-Williams, that's a decent product. I would suggest covering everything very well, and spray and back roll with a extra wide roller, or just leave it a spray finish. 
You'll lose the job if you try and talk those kind of people out of what they want.


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