# Me-vs-Aura-vs-6 panel door



## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

I have a job coming up towards the end of the month and the HO is hell bent on Aura for her trim. Imagine if her trim had an Aura. I digress. I told her I would have to do some testing to see if I had the ability to use this product and achieve the results I wanted to see.

My work is predominately oil based and trim only; all brushed. Kind of a niche service, but it has been great for the past 5 years. I have done a few jobs with WB Satin Impervo and Kelly Moore products and they turned out nice. I don't paint WB paint worth a damn. I am too slow and like to lay the paint off until perfect. Definitely the wrong style for WB.

I picked up a gallon of Aura Satin-snowfall white- and a quart of the Ben Moore brand retardent additive so as not to upset the delicate balance of the paint. I am a slow painter and brushing out a six panel door with WB is a tough task for me. The door had a previous coat of BM Dulamel semi that served as the substrate. It's self priming too. I used a random orbit sander with 220 and sanded the door completely smooth, tacked off and wiped down with a dilute solution of no rinse TSP. Door is standing upright.

When I brush out a door I paint all of the pockets first then the stiles and rails. I am slow; I average about 15-20 min per side. I could never work for someone else because they would beat the hair off of me for dragging ass. Fortunately I work alone. I poured the paint and off I went. For me, the paint kicked off so fast I barely had time to think about what was happening. I thought that BM WB Satin Impervo was quick; this was like super glue versus Elmers. I picked up the pace a bit and trudged forth. I finished up doing the best I could. Took a couple of steps back to admire my work. It looked like I painted it with a firecracker. i.e. BAD. This paint as is from the can is too fast for me. You guys can probably do it but not me. I might get the hang of it in a year or two but I need it at the end of the month.

On the plus side the areas that turned out good showed promise. Even sheen and nice leveling. I added 8oz of the Ben Moore slicker to the can in hopes that it would help me get a bit of time to work. The paint sands vey close to oil, much better than any WB enamel I have used. Powders up nicely and you are actually able to remove material and smooth out the surface. This is even after one hour dry time; no balling up or gumming up the sponge.

Next attempt. Smooth door, tacked and wiped. The addition of the retardant gave me about double the working time as before but still faster than straight BM Sat Imp latex.

Next attempt. Same door prep. Added 2 ounces of XIM latex additive to the gallon. So we have 10 ounces of additional liquids in the can. This gave me plenty of time to get the job done to my satisfaction. This was similar to BM sat Imp with Floetrol added. I was able to brush out a nice even coat and lay off without fear of dragging or roping.

It was actually pretty quick to do this because the paint flashes off so quick you are sanding after only one hour.

The Verdict----I like it better than KMM and Ben Moore WB latex enamels. The sheen compared to Impervo is worlds better. The Aura is a dead ringer for the oil based Impervo. WB Impervo looks to me like it can't make up its mind; kind of shiny but kinda flat. Not very even or visually appealing to me. The Aura levels much better and has a bit of drag on the brush instead of the super slippery feelof most waterbornes. Would I use this over other latex enamels? Yes, I think it is a superior product. Plus you need only wait an hour to unscrew what you screwed up.

I will be trying another gallon with Floetrol to see how it works. Stay tuned.

With this mixture I used it will require two coats.

Hope this helps


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I keep reading all these threads about Aura. Now I live in the same city as Warren Buffet, who owns Berkshire Hathway, which owns Benjamin Moore, and the only place you can buy BM is at the local Ace Hardware. I just cant get myself to buy from a Hardware store that is going to have a part-time high school kid, grandma/grandpa, mix my paint...especially if its pricey.

The one BM dealer we did have closed shop 2-3 months ago citing the downturn in new home construction and the economy. In all actuality, he sucked. Lousy attitude, wouldn't discount to the pro's, though he would to designers, (his wife was one), and his data-base was on handwritten 3x5 cards. Everybody decided he was a "necessary evil" if you had to buy BM.

I think I'll just drop in old Warren's office to have a chat with him someday...:whistling2:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Glad to hear that the other additives seemed to work, but I would be very cautious with them since Aura is a pretty delicate chemistry. Even the gallons need a certain amount of tint to work properly.

I used satin once wit the extender and liked it, but I did not have to do any 6-panel doors. Leveled better than WB Impervo on regular trim and paneling.

Do not beat yourself up on speed, 15-20 minutes per side of a 6-panel is just fine.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

The reason that floetrol or XIM additives worked is because you basically added gylcol to the paint which is the very ingredient that BM eliminated by coming up with Aura and Aura tints. The BM extender is suppose to be resin based and not add the glycol to the paint. You essentially have probably added some voc back into the product. Glad you got it to work. I have yet to use it on trim as I knew I would run into the same issues you had.


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## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

I wonder if adding the glycol based extenders it alters the paint chemistry negatvely? Where's that Wolverine rocket scientist chemist guy? I seem to recall someone saying their BM guy said to use Floetrol prior to the proprietery BM additive.

I would also like to add that I do not brush all doors out. If I have multiple doors I will line them up, roll and tip off; much more efficient. Since I do resedential repaints I don't always have that luxury; I'm not going to drag that crap out for one door.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

did you try and roll the aura and tip off?


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

You are correct, Floetrol is a glycol based additive like XIM. This is the primary ingrediant taken out of Aura in order to minimize and in most cases eliminate, flashing, sheen variation, surfactant leach, VOC and touch up issues. Glycols are in UTC based colorants for all manufacturers and are the primary reason that these issues occur. Glycols also had softness to the film, which compromises washability and curing of the film. Aura contains a patented hybrid acrylic that needs the colorant to activate the Color Lock Technology, and provide the leveling characteristics, and flim tighness. Since the film is much tighter due to the pigment particles being much closer together, you get much better adhesion, a huge spread rate, great hide, fast dry and self priming. Glycols interfere with the chemistry of intended wet and dry film. The 508 Extender is resin based and is essentially the proprietary hybrid resin that is exclusive to Aura. You are adding quality to the product, rather than detracting quality when you had glycol based additives.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

NACE said:


> You are correct, Floetrol is a glycol based additive like XIM. This is the primary ingrediant taken out of Aura in order to minimize and in most cases eliminate, flashing, sheen variation, surfactant leach, VOC and touch up issues. Glycols are in UTC based colorants for all manufacturers and are the primary reason that these issues occur. Glycols also had softness to the film, which compromises washability and curing of the film. Aura contains a patented hybrid acrylic that needs the colorant to activate the Color Lock Technology, and provide the leveling characteristics, and flim tighness. Since the film is much tighter due to the pigment particles being much closer together, you get much better adhesion, a huge spread rate, great hide, fast dry and self priming. Glycols interfere with the chemistry of intended wet and dry film. The 508 Extender is resin based and is essentially the proprietary hybrid resin that is exclusive to Aura. You are adding quality to the product, rather than detracting quality when you had glycol based additives.


Hey NACE, sine I knew that but you knew how to explain it  what do you suggest for making Aura dry less fast?? There extender doesn't seem to do that very well, or do you need to add a ton of it?? For trim it can be a hassle for it to dry quickly.. 

Sometimes quick isn't better


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## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

I added 8 ounces of the 518 extender and I don't think it helped very much; I might try 13 ounces and see if that helps any. There has to be a magic formula. I have to get another gallon since this one is effed up from the glycol

6.5oz is 5%
13 oz is 10%
20 oz is 15%

Half of the bottle (16 oz) is around 13-14%. I will try half the bottle and see what happens.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> The reason that floetrol or XIM additives worked is because you basically added gylcol to the paint which is the very ingredient that BM eliminated by coming up with Aura and Aura tints. The BM extender is suppose to be resin based and not add the glycol to the paint. You essentially have probably added some voc back into the product. Glad you got it to work. I have yet to use it on trim as I knew I would run into the same issues you had.


 
How bad are Glycols as far as VOCs are concerned? What effects can they cause? Does just breathing them while flashing effect you? Or would you have to breath in spray mist to be effected?

I thought propylne glycol was pretty safe, is the incorrect?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NACE said:


> You are correct, Floetrol is a glycol based additive like XIM. This is the primary ingrediant taken out of Aura in order to minimize and in most cases eliminate, flashing, sheen variation, surfactant leach, VOC and touch up issues. Glycols are in UTC based colorants for all manufacturers and are the primary reason that these issues occur. Glycols also had softness to the film, which compromises washability and curing of the film. Aura contains a patented hybrid acrylic that needs the colorant to activate the Color Lock Technology, and provide the leveling characteristics, and flim tighness. Since the film is much tighter due to the pigment particles being much closer together, you get much better adhesion, a huge spread rate, great hide, fast dry and self priming. Glycols interfere with the chemistry of intended wet and dry film. The 508 Extender is resin based and is essentially the proprietary hybrid resin that is exclusive to Aura. You are adding quality to the product, rather than detracting quality when you had glycol based additives.


Now, does Glycol based extenders only reduce durability when used with AURA, or also with other paints?


I thought Glycol didn't reduce strength the way water would because it retards the dry time and allows the molecules to link and enamelaize.

My understanding about Glycol as an additive is that the film is just as strong, but it will result in a thinner film, so one coat of a thinner film wouldnt be as strong as one coat of a thicker film.

But that pound for pound the film was as strong as if it hadnt have been reduced with the glycol.

Is this incorrect?


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Now, does Glycol based extenders only reduce durability when used with AURA, or also with other paints?
> 
> 
> I thought Glycol didn't reduce strength the way water would because it retards the dry time and allows the molecules to link and enamelaize.
> ...


As far as adding glycol to Aura your adding an ingredient that is not in Aura so that's how I can it can effect it.. I am not a chemist tho.. as for toxic who know these days whats good or bad you... Aren't we all gonna die anyway one day??


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> Aren't we all gonna die anyway one day??


 
I am not worried about the dying part. I am worried about living miserably.

Like losing your motor skills, or memory, or cognative function.

I dont want to be alive as a vegatable.

It's not about being worried about dying sooner, it's about quality of life while you are alive.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

How about a video? :laughing:


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Do not beat yourself up on speed, 15-20 minutes per side of a 6-panel is just fine.


 
Agreed. Especially if you are making an issue of trying to have even uniform brush strokes, and no built up/dried paint on the rails.

It all depends on what detail level you are tying to achieve. Different levels of detail take different amounts of time.

It sounds like your customers refer you to more people so Kudos.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> I am not worried about the dying part. I am worried about living miserably.
> 
> Like losing your motor skills, or memory, or cognative function.
> 
> ...


I hear ya.. you can always pull the plug when its time


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> I hear ya.. you can always pull the plug when its time


 

Or choose not to create the health conditions that would require you to pull the plug.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> How about a video? :laughing:


 
only nerds do that


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> only nerds do that


And people who dont mind having everyone take shots at them to tell them how they would do it differently, or "better."


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Now, does Glycol based extenders only reduce durability when used with AURA, or also with other paints?
> 
> 
> I thought Glycol didn't reduce strength the way water would because it retards the dry time and allows the molecules to link and enamelaize.
> ...


Glycols by nature will add negativity to a paint film, not strenght. The best paint film is the one directly out of the can without any additives as that is what the manufacturer intended. Glycols also as said, add softness, add potential for surfactant leach, flashing, drying times, VOC etc. The degree is really based on the color or base of the product. If you are attempting to manipulate the handling characteristic of the paint to make it flow or level better, then Floetrol will work just fine, however it will detract from the manufacturers warranty and chemically alter the product. Again, the Glycols are removed from Aura for the very reasons described. If you add them back in does it compromise the film integrity? Not sure, but it will bring back all the negative characteristics that were intentionally formulated out of it.

How do you get it to dry slower? Only add as much extender as recommended. Always brush from a dry surface into a wet surface. I don't know the answer to be honest. I have found that temperature and humidity, HVAC effect Aura more than anything. I have adjusted my brushing technique to accomodate the drying charachteristics but have found that the leveling is better than any paint as long as it is not overworked.


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## stansoph (Dec 16, 2007)

The dry time is my big issue with the WB. I find it hard to believe that Ben Moore, Sherman Wilson and other mfg's with deep pockets can't come up with a product that doesn't compromise in one area. I really like the Aura satin on trim, the sheen is the same as oil impervo and it levels better than any other WB trim paint. If I could get about half of the open time of Oil Impervo I would quit using oil and use Aura exclusivelly. The paint at $50+/gal and the extender at $40/gal is borderlne psychotic.

I wonder what BM intends for people to use as a trim paint when the oil goes away. If a HO buys a gallon of Aura goes home and paints his trim he is going to be one disappointed MF'er. The Aura is going to seem like crap to him and rightly so.

If I kmew the answer(s) I wouldn't be crying and whining about it.

I did get another gallon of Aura and will test it again i a day or so.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

stansoph said:


> The dry time is my big issue with the WB. I find it hard to believe that Ben Moore, Sherman Wilson and other mfg's with deep pockets can't come up with a product that doesn't compromise in one area. I really like the Aura satin on trim, the sheen is the same as oil impervo and it levels better than any other WB trim paint. If I could get about half of the open time of Oil Impervo I would quit using oil and use Aura exclusivelly. The paint at $50+/gal and the extender at $40/gal is borderlne psychotic.
> 
> I wonder what BM intends for people to use as a trim paint when the oil goes away. If a HO buys a gallon of Aura goes home and paints his trim he is going to be one disappointed MF'er. The Aura is going to seem like crap to him and rightly so.
> 
> ...


All tho a HO with a gallon of Satin IM Oil?? that would be scary! 

I use Muralo's WB on trim can't compare it to Aura since I have to use Aura on trim but Muralo's the best WB I have ever used but it drys ast as well.


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