# Jack Pauhl and Behr?



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Anyone notice that Jack is in bed with behr paint now? He thinks it's some of the greatest stuff out there - what do you guys think about that?

So any painters what to share their 'secret' weapon they have had success with?

I'll have to be honest when re-habilitating this 'pad' for a friend of mine so his family could move in, we took these old dirty wood panelling on his walls and got it to absolute perfection coverage in just two applications of coatings - all products purchased at the home depot. And it didn't involve any nasty mineral spirts or alcohol based products. 

My absolute best in terms of coverage and durability for exterior house painting is made by a company that is known to many as a hardware store.

And if I want to cover 'princess' pink and make it into a off-white 'creme' color - there is a paint manufacture near boston that makes a satin wall paint that will do that perfectly in one coat.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

No, I didn't notice that about JP, but thanks for calling it to our attention. Now we know what to be on the look out for. 

I'm not going to share my secrets. :no: At least not until we get the secret forum. :yes:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I'm not going to share my secrets. :no: At least not until we get the secret forum. :yes:


Like that's gonna happen now! Seems someone was making late night phone calls to Nathan, the mods are all sharpening their ban sticks and chanting now, you know anything about that Gabe?:whistling2:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i use a lot of weird stuff too.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

RCP said:


> Like that's gonna happen now! Seems someone was making late night phone calls to Nathan, the mods are all sharpening their ban sticks and chanting now, you know anything about that Gabe?:whistling2:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I think jacks program is system driven, not product driven. Dan, you yourself have explored ad nauseum the equal and opposite relationship of product and process. Imagine finding a material that you could get at a comparatively low price, taking full advantage of the box store purchase power, and imagine that you could plug it into the most efficient application and sequencing possible, getting predictable and acceptable results with the product every single time. I think it's clear that Jack runs on all 8 all the time and knows how to make most any product work. If his product costs are that controlled, and his efficiency is that good, Jack makes bank. 

Honestly, for the general consumer population, I think they could give a crap what the name on the side of the can says. They want a competitive price, and a good result. I wouldn't bet against jacks ability to deliver that in a profitable and business like manner.

We all have products we are partial to. My systems are built around a coulee of products that drive our efficiency and quality. Our guys are trained to use these products and get that result. In my case, we could use most anything, natura, regal, aura, duration, Cali fresh coat, Pittsburgh, mythic, on walls and ceilings. Trim, cabinets, stairs, wood finishes, not so much. 

Jack does give us something to think about.


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## one man show (Nov 18, 2010)

hmmm.......
There is a lot I could say at this point but I'm not going to bother.
(Biting my tounge profusely)
Not intended as troll bait (seriously)


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Honestly, for the general consumer population, I think they could give a crap what the name on the side of the can says. They want a competitive price, and a good result. I wouldn't bet against jacks ability to deliver that in a profitable and business like manner.
> 
> 
> Jack does give us something to think about.


Tying this into the tiered pricing thread - I am thinking the same thing more and more everyday. I have certain homeowners that demand Benjamin Moore paints, where as the others are looking for a 'quote'. I use to be a paint snob myself, but the way this market is going - and if I am going to continue to service these RFQ's from the 'general consumer population' - I am going to look more and more into these products. I have experimented with these 'box' store products - and have found latex primers that kill wood tannins - and boxstore paint that do a 'fine' job with one coat - as long as we're in the realm of 'offwhites'. I guess 'quality' is in the eye of the beholder and/or check writer.....


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

what an odd little thread...


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I think jacks program is system driven, not product driven. Dan, you yourself have explored ad nauseum the equal and opposite relationship of product and process. Imagine finding a material that you could get at a comparatively low price, taking full advantage of the box store purchase power, and imagine that you could plug it into the most efficient application and sequencing possible, getting predictable and acceptable results with the product every single time. I think it's clear that Jack runs on all 8 all the time and knows how to make most any product work. If his product costs are that controlled, and his efficiency is that good, Jack makes bank.
> 
> Honestly, for the general consumer population, I think they could give a crap what the name on the side of the can says. They want a competitive price, and a good result. I wouldn't bet against jacks ability to deliver that in a profitable and business like manner.
> 
> ...


Outstanding summary, Scott. :thumbsup:


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

A different product for different situations and jobs. Miss the thread about aura not covering in 3? 

There's no magic paint out there.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

haha ... oh boy... wait til you see whats in the pipes.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I think jacks program is system driven, not product driven. Dan, you yourself have explored ad nauseum the equal and opposite relationship of product and process. Imagine finding a material that you could get at a comparatively low price, taking full advantage of the box store purchase power, and imagine that you could plug it into the most efficient application and sequencing possible, getting predictable and acceptable results with the product every single time. I think it's clear that Jack runs on all 8 all the time and knows how to make most any product work. If his product costs are that controlled, and his efficiency is that good, Jack makes bank.
> 
> Honestly, for the general consumer population, I think they could give a crap what the name on the side of the can says. They want a competitive price, and a good result. I wouldn't bet against jacks ability to deliver that in a profitable and business like manner.
> 
> ...


Systems are driven by product capabilities and no other way. Its impossible to have that in reverse. It simply doesnt work. Product is the engine, the core to any system. The system is the means (the wheels) to move the product.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Some people like Spagetti-O's and others like Prime Rib. Both will fill your tummy.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Systems are driven by product capabilities and no other way. Its impossible to have that in reverse. It simply doesnt work. Product is the engine, the core to any system. The system is the means (the wheels) to move the product.


It is interesting that many painters are not taught about product. They are only taught to lay something down. Even the budweisers of paints arent unusable technologies. 

There are some products that make you work for them, and others that work for you. But if guys are jumping product ships and don't have good systems, I bet you see guys wandering around trying to find someone who can tell them if waterborne and enamel mean the same thing.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Some people like Spagetti-O's and others like Prime Rib. Both will fill your tummy.


Just exactly what is it that you and archibald have going on down there where you send every customer who wants prime rib to tambascos door with a sphagettios coupon? 

And then you cover it by posting once a month:

"oh hey Bill, you were in Hanover last week? You should have called me, ya fork."

Brilliant, I say.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Systems are driven by product capabilities and no other way. Its impossible to have that in reverse. It simply doesnt work. Product is the engine, the core to any system. The system is the means (the wheels) to move the product.


PP his systems is working fine for JP and that's all that matters in his business. I just wonder why anyone would even have a 2nd thought of why he would use a certain paint. Everyones knows that every paint company has at least a few lines that work good or very good at what they are designed to do.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

rock on jp


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

All I'm saying is this... I am not a one man loyal paint store contractor. I shop many places for what I need, each place having 1 or 2 products performing a specific requirement very well. I do not, will not compromise that purchase for a substitute, no matter what. It will cost me to do it.

But, here is something interesting about product ( I ) know very well. I can show you what another product is NOT capable of doing side by side, all day long. You are not going to get a Toyota Prius (a highly rated brand) to do what Camaro can do. No way possible. Same with paints or masking tape or paint brushes. They all have limits. They all have specific handling characteristics. They all have maximum capabilities. 

Some of you mentioned, its what you MAKE of the product, how you APPLY product to make it WORK for you. Thats jacked up thinking if you really want to know what I think. 

A fine tuned system with a sub par product is like a damn road block in a HUGE way! I dont care what painter you use to spread a gallon of paint, that gallon has limits. Some see those limitations as trivial, to me, its substantial as trivial as they may be.

Its all this product hashing that keeps me out of threads talking about how to make money in a slow economy or how to be competitive against lowballers or how to make yourself stand out. Dont think we dont have them here in Cleveland too. The answer everyone's looking for is, what is the right product and system?

The right product with the right system will always give you one up on your competition even if you have to take the job at the same price as your competition. The right product and system is what allows you to be profitable during these hard times.

After the new year I am going to start tweeting my replies in 140 chars or less. I figure since LC is MIA, I'll help keep the posts long and winding.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

A different perspective.

Let’s compare business to business 

You are a paint contractor – so am I.
You answer your phone – so do I.
You are professional – so am I.
You have 25 yrs. exp. – so do I.
You are a licensed contractor – so am I.
You are bonded and insured – so am I.
You need to be profitable – so do I.
You use paint sprayers – so do I.
You buy paint – so do I.
You drive a nice clean truck – so do I.
You have operating expenses – so do I.
You shop at the paint store – so do I.
You do business with a smile – so do I.
You have a 5 yr. warranty – so do I.
You bid the job – so did I.
 You get the idea. 

*Question:* What makes our companies different? What ultimately sets us apart in the bid by providing the best over all solution?


Let’s add this to the mix 

You use BEHR – so do I.
What sets us apart now? Looks? Personality?

Like I wrote in the Business, Marketing and Sales area If it ain't broke, let's break it. Our systems might be working for us but we need to break them in order to make them better. I am such a strong believer in that way of thinking. 
<


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

pure genius,,,,inventing systems for painting typical tract homes! whooda thunk?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

high fibre said:


> pure genius,,,,inventing systems for painting typical tract homes! whooda thunk?


really? cause the ceilings, walls and trim on a repaint look exactly like the ones in new homes 1100 sq, 3300 sq ft or 11,000 sq ft. The genius of the system allows me to paint the same way. Its brilliant! right?

Are you serious?


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## Dbo (Nov 29, 2009)

I have tried BEHR (not sure what kind)before a few times and did not like the workability with it. Seemed to be like painting with elmer's glue. I always got an orange peel effect on the finish coat but a durable finish when cured. Also had used the Behr primer n paint in one. I painted a tan over some red walls and it almost did cover in one coat. Impressed with the coverage.

I use to always use PPG products from a Pittsburgh Paints store before they went out of business. Great prices and service. I used Speedhide and Wallhide/Pure Performace mainly. Also GLB high hide flat white.(GOOD STUFF) Then going to Menards for Pittsburgh. Never had a problem with the paint just the ****ty service and knowledge. They can barely teach a HO anything. These past months been having coverage issues with the Ultra.(3 jobs) I was thinking a bad batch of base or pigments. 

I have always liked Ace brand paints. Never had a problem with them over the years. Similiar to BM. Don't use them always cause no discount only rewards. The same with a BM dealer in town.(Mom and Pop store) No discount. Then again neither does Menards just a little cheaper. I want my PPG back. Nobody can come close to matching their prices I was getting. Not even other PPG dealers. Maybe thats why they closed down. Lol In my area Charging More or Making Less is a big decision on certain jobs with not having a discount.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

One consistent critique of BEHR Premium Plus I hear (not ULTRA) is the paints ability to run or sag (in areas) after you left the area. Whats that tell you about the application? Doesn't make it a bad paint my any means.

It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy in areas but does not require to be applied heavy. Its similar to Glidden EVERMORE Super Washable flat or the original Diamond from ICI Dulux. All excellent products by the way. That EVERMORE is like paint armor but it'll run and sag on ya. Those products teach you how to apply paint properly. Not so forgiving.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> One consistent critique of BEHR Premium Plus I hear (not ULTRA) is the paints ability to run or sag (in areas) after you left the area. Whats that tell you about the application? Doesn't make it a bad paint my any means.
> 
> It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy in areas but does not require to be applied heavy. Its similar to Glidden EVERMORE Super Washable flat or the original Diamond from ICI Dulux. All excellent products by the way. That EVERMORE is like paint armor but it'll run and sag on ya. Those products teach you how to apply paint properly. Not so forgiving.


Paul, never have I met a trim paint that runs like the interior semigloss Behr and 'vintage' P&L accolade circa '00 prior to the reformulation and the plastic containers. The difference between the two, is that I finally understood the reason 100% acrylic resins stick so well is the reason why it was dragging when being applied by brush and thus lending itself to overapplication. This was corrected by using a different line of brush - understanding which filaments worked with which paint technology made all the difference in the world. I have never been able, however, to remedy this with Behr paint. That and at least p&l accolade looked like an oil paint with great hide. The behr never looked pretty and true to it's nature had some of the lousiest hide I have ever seen - right in line with their ceiling paint, goes on thin and watery, yet barely covers 300 SF in one coat.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> One consistent critique of BEHR Premium Plus I hear (not ULTRA) is the paints ability to run or sag (in areas) after you left the area. Whats that tell you about the application? Doesn't make it a bad paint my any means.:blink:
> 
> It does run and sag if you apply it too heavy in areas but does not require to be applied heavy. Its similar to Glidden EVERMORE Super Washable flat or the original Diamond from ICI Dulux. All excellent products by the way. That EVERMORE is like paint armor but it'll run and sag on ya. Those products teach you how to apply paint properly. Not so forgiving.


 
no comment


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

painting new homes is just like repainting a home! thanks painttalk.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Since one of jp's often made points is that the product must perform well and apply easily, I would think products that run if not applied perfectly would be off the approved list.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Since one of jp's often made points is that the product must perform well and apply easily, I would think products that run if not applied perfectly would be off the approved list.


Yeah, What he said.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Dan, I'm not sure about the Premium Plus on trim, never tried it -only walls. What I can say tho about EVERMORE and DIAMOND, beings similar in characteristics, they stick to plastic five's like I never seen paint stick before. It takes a 5-in-1 and very hard scraping to lift it, if you can lift it at all. 

Those two and Premi Plus are the only 3 paints known to me that have that characteristic, where the paint tends to want to move for a period of time after application. No doubt they are unusual to apply because most paints dont behave like that.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Since one of jp's often made points is that the product must perform well and apply easily, I would think products that run if not applied perfectly would be off the approved list.


I dont approve premi plus simply because I have not used much of it to know it like I know Premi Plus Ultra.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

high fibre said:


> painting new homes is just like repainting a home! thanks painttalk.


wow if all of you thought like that -- its no wonder why I'm hit so hard on my posts. Sorry you have trouble painting NC and repaints the same. We use all the same tools, the brush, the tape, rollers, ladders, drops... all that stuff... we haul all of it into those repaints and paint them the same way. I wish you could see it. You would be blown away.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Jack don't worry about us you just do your thing and others will do their thing and if we all come together it will be beautiful .


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> wow if all of you thought like that -- its no wonder why I'm hit so hard on my posts. Sorry you have trouble painting NC and repaints the same. We use all the same tools, the brush, the tape, rollers, ladders, drops... all that stuff... we haul all of it into those repaints and paint them the same way. I wish you could see it. You would be blown away.


The basic mechanics may be the same, but a lot of the planning, prep, etc is quite different.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

All I know is that everytime a product was changed I had to make a small adjustment. Even going from one mfg's product to another mfg's product. I've had to use box store paints on many occasions doing insurance resto work because that is where the insurance companies had their accounts. So yeah I've used my share of Behr, Valspar, American Tradition,...you name it. Once I learned the "nuances" of the different products I didn't have many application problems.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

2 years ago I did the drywall,paint, and cabinets(install) in a house. They wanted Behr semi-gloss. I must admit that the Behr covered,laid down,and touched up better than egg-shell I have used since.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> The basic mechanics may be the same, but a lot of the planning, prep, etc is quite different.


Completely irrelevant, doesnt matter, paint has a system, prep has a system etc. doesnt matter who's house I am standing in. I'm glad I am not faced with the challenges some of you have on repaints. Sounds complicated.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> 2 years ago I did the drywall,paint, and cabinets(install) in a house. They wanted Behr semi-gloss. I must admit that the Behr covered,laid down,and touched up better than egg-shell I have used since.


 
Was it white?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> 2 years ago I did the drywall,paint, and cabinets(install) in a house. They wanted Behr semi-gloss. I must admit that the Behr covered,laid down,and touched up better than egg-shell I have used since.


 
Have it tinted at the store. The Berh rep will tell you that it's not a high hiding white. I use Decorator White.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> Completely irrelevant, doesnt matter, paint has a system, prep has a system etc. doesnt matter who's house I am standing in. I'm glad I am not faced with the challenges some of you have on repaints. Sounds complicated.


Completely irrelevant?

The last couple years saw my interior painting load at about 50:50 NC vs. repaint. Staging is different. Homeowners typically prefer to have access to rooms during the project, prefer to have smaller areas worked on to completion, noise and odor is more of a factor. Prepwork requires different things. In new construction, trim prep revolves around sanding, filling and caulking. In repaint, it is more sanding, some repair and cleaning. Hairspray, hand lotion on doors, etc are not something that NC deals with. Solvent or cleaner on trim is not needed in the vast majority of NC work.

Biggest difference is that in NC you have a blank slate for the most part to work with. In a repaint, you have very little control over the initial condition of the canvas you are given to work on. And that alone can be a huge difference.

You seem to be saying that the systems in NC are the same as repaint work, and that is just not case. Materials that work for you in one of them probably will work well in the other, but the same systems are not used in both. As a general rule, I consider high quality new construction to be tougher than most residential repaint work. BUT, in older homes or those cases where the starting condition is poor, it tips the other way and repaint work is more challenging.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I agree with Dean-o, try taking off wallpaper in a 60's house {first generation sheetrock homes} and try getting those walls up to decent shape. 

My problems with NC have been with the GC's and how they think somehow subcontractors have mastered the art of etherealness {multiple subs occupying the same space at the same time} I've walked onto a jobsite in the morning, where the tiling guy confiscated the entire master bedroom for his mud mixing station, then confiscated the adjacent makeup and walk-in closet room{still haven't figured this out} for all his cutting equipment and the bathroom where he was actually applying the tile. Leaving me with the other bathroom, where the plumber literallly had him and 3 helpers trying to turn a bolt. And went like this all week - and the GC wondered why I took a couple of weeks off. Yep gotta love new construction. I never understand why GC's think the job will go faster if they schedule in the painters earlier - I always tell him to wait until everyone is gone, it will go faster. I haven't had good luck with NC and/or GC's


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Dean, you pulled this off track. high fibre said: 'pure genius,,,,inventing systems for painting typical tract homes! whooda thunk?'

I replied I paint them the same, and I do. That is a true statement. We are not discussing the level of difficulty or level or prep a repaint might have over NC but regardless there is a system for it. 

I've been on many NC jobs where the prep that goes into them is outright crazy. I've never been on a repaint where I had to remove mud from the walls before I painted them, or blood, or walls with oil from tools, or where someone decided to pull the clean-out on an air compressor next to the wall, or concrete from both sides of the metal or fiberglass doors, or concrete all up the basement stairs, or concrete and black stains on the oak stair treads, red marker on bare wood, coffee stains on the treads, water stains, mildew on bare drywall etc.

I've spent far more time prepping a new front door for example than I ever spent getting hairspray off a bathroom wall or food off kitchen walls.

I wish I can relate, just cant on this one.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> really? cause the ceilings, walls and trim on a repaint look exactly like the ones in new homes 1100 sq, 3300 sq ft or 11,000 sq ft. The genius of the system allows me to paint the same way. Its brilliant! right?
> 
> Are you serious?


See, I did not pull this off track. You said the same systems work for repaint and NC.



jack pauhl said:


> Dean, you pulled this off track. high fibre said: 'pure genius,,,,inventing systems for painting typical tract homes! whooda thunk?'
> 
> I replied I paint them the same, and I do. That is a true statement. We are not discussing the level of difficulty or level or prep a repaint might have over NC but regardless there is a system for it.
> 
> ...


Well, I have spent time digging buckshot out from cabinet doors and repairing them after a high profile (for our area) suicide and dealt with the resulting trim contamination from whatever the crime scene clean up people have used to clean up. Fish-eye city.

I have spent 8 hours in one stairwell removing wallpaper from probably 40 sq. ft. tops. Let us not even mention the wall repair after that which dwarfs any drywall repair a painter needs to do in NC. Major repairs in NC get the drywaller called back, not the painter handed a bucket of mud.

Or the seam separation in drywall the repaint guys get to deal with.

On front doors, the prep to redo a stained front door in most cases dramatically surpasses what is needed in NC since most do not maintain them until they look bad. Prep on NC front doors is a cake walk.

Mildew and waterstains on drywall in NC? What in the world is the GC doing? Never seen that. In the repaint world, sure. 

Markers on barewood are vastly preferable to the angst ridden teenager who punches holes in walls, or the tween girl who has scotch taped a bazillion Justin Bieber pictures to the walls, or the teenager who has covered the walls with permanent marker, crayon, etc.

Setting up rooms with drop clothes alone is different. One repaint required more drop clothes than a years worth of NC.

The point is you seemed to be implying that NC systems directly translate to the repaint jobs and we would all be amazed if we could see you work. NC and repaint do not directly translate.

There are more variables in repaint work than NC. Sure, there are systems for repaint work but they are not the same as for NC.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I am beginning to think Jack is a quack, behr paint, taping baseboard and then rolling the walls all the way onto tape. This guy is just a glorified condo/apartment painter.

What systems exist for residential repaints, when you get to work in the morning and the homeowner assumes you are some insured mover, leaving every last bit of furniture and paintings in place. 

I mean what residential repaint contractor hasn't seen crews of commercial painters just bang out the interiors and exteriors for 20+ million dollar homes that some GC put up - done 10x faster than a typical residential repainter could? Big deal, Jack isn't special in this regard, I've seen these ultra fast crews a million times along with the expectation of quality - but hey that's how they're building 'em these days from studs to paint. 

Residential repainters are paid to do extra steps to make a finer finish - we're really just decorators and not production crews. Guys like Jack will undermine ever last bit of quality in order to ensure his 'systems' remain intact. How many times have you gone into a million+ home for it's first residential repaint - and noticed all the caulking from trim to walls is all coming unhinged? Because not only did they use the cheapest caulking known to mankind - it kills production to wait until everything is primed first before applying caulking. And thus all the caulking from the top of baseboards just comes off and has to be scraped off and redone.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I like how you guys like to move threads in a direction not originally intended. So now we are talking about apples and oranges. Wallpaper now? Can we finish the "paint" portion first?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> I like how you guys like to move threads in a direction not originally intended. So now we are talking about apples and oranges. Wallpaper now? Can we finish the "paint" portion first?


I just want to bust your balls, Jack. Getting cabin fever. I admire your desire to make great production systems. I guess for the most part interior painting has really fallen under the older category of 'decorators'. And craftsmanship is derived from this old label. Heck even the PDCA has decorators in it's acronym. What most guys don't understand is that decorating is dead, including me. I never cared about the relative production of one paint vs. another paint - I only judged a paint by how pretty the final product was. I didn't care about tremendous overhead that using oil trim paints can impact upon a job - I just cared about the old world craftsmanship of oil painted trim vs. newer latex paints.

It's like Fenner says, craftsmanship is dead, and the 'market' has voted for price - and we have to as business men sometimes retire our old standards we loved in favor of production machines. Maybe Pratt & Lambert paints are some of the very best quality craftsmanship paints out there, but perhaps it's a 'dinosaur' product when it comes to production


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

plainjane said:


> I am beginning to think Jack is a quack, behr paint, taping baseboard and then rolling the walls all the way onto tape. This guy is just a glorified condo/apartment painter.


WTF?
You can bark all you want fella, but at the end of the day Jacks done a hell of a lot more for the trade then your whiny ass.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Come on guys, let's not go there. I am sure you can discuss this without the name calling or getting personal.

Thanks


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> It's like Fenner says, craftsmanship is dead, and the 'market' has voted for price - and we have to as business men sometimes retire our old standards we loved in favor of production machines.


Just want to clarify that statement as it is an incorrect paraphrase and assumption. Craftsmanship is not dead. I will only hire a craftsman for my home. The market is still alive and well, it has has just shrank. Craftsmanship is not dead, it is merely costlier to produce. A unique company with marketing and selling ability that performs far above average work results can be very successful. A one man show craftsman that doesn't advertise... can support himself and make a fair income... if he is not afraid to price properly.

I sill operate on a Macy's model, Dan and always will. Apple is another company that continuously shows dividend and high earnings margins. Both of these companies have increased share in a down economy. You can do high margins and higher volume, you just have to be on the ball like these retailers are.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Let me say Ken, that craftsmanship is dead for the average consumer out there. I don't have an extensive marketing campaign to reach to the upper 5% of homeowners that want nothing but the best. Me thinks being in 'bed' with high end designers and architects is probably the route to this market. The mainstream customer has flipped from wanting quality back in the 90's to being price shopping. I guess if high production systems and 'ok' quality is acceptable to this market and has a good profit margin, then that's the way to go.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I just want to bust your balls, Jack. Getting cabin fever. I admire your desire to make great production systems. I guess for the most part interior painting has really fallen under the older category of 'decorators'. And craftsmanship is derived from this old label. Heck even the PDCA has decorators in it's acronym. What most guys don't understand is that decorating is dead, including me. I never cared about the relative production of one paint vs. another paint - I only judged a paint by how pretty the final product was. I didn't care about tremendous overhead that using oil trim paints can impact upon a job - I just cared about the old world craftsmanship of oil painted trim vs. newer latex paints.
> 
> It's like Fenner says, *craftsmanship is dead, and the 'market' has voted for price* - and we have to as business men sometimes retire our old standards we loved in favor of production machines. Maybe Pratt & Lambert paints are some of the very best quality craftsmanship paints out there, but perhaps it's a 'dinosaur' product when it comes to production


past few days the neighbor across the street has had a "crew" come over and do thing to her house. All energy efficiency stuff. Drilled holes in siding to shoot insulation in, then put caps on them, then yesterday replaced her windows.

When they went to put the caps on they didn't seal them in any way, and actually they are not really on there all that good IMO. BUT.. look at their paint job:









































































I think there is something to be said for what was in bold and underlined. Keep in mind guys, this is at 4:45pm and the temp is dropping and will be in the 20's in less than 2 hours. I guess you could call me picky, or say I am just picking this job apart.. OR that they are really not painters, or that it is totally out of scope for the job they were doing. All points I can understand. Well I don't know, if I was not a painter I still wouldn't leave it looking like that.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Paul, never have I met a trim paint that runs like the interior semigloss Behr and 'vintage' P&L accolade circa '00 prior to the reformulation and the plastic containers. The difference between the two, is that I finally understood the reason 100% acrylic resins stick so well is the reason why it was dragging when being applied by brush and thus lending itself to overapplication. This was corrected by using a different line of brush - understanding which filaments worked with which paint technology made all the difference in the world. I have never been able, however, to remedy this with Behr paint. That and at least p&l accolade looked like an oil paint with great hide. The behr never looked pretty and true to it's nature had some of the lousiest hide I have ever seen - right in line with their ceiling paint, goes on thin and watery, yet barely covers 300 SF in one coat.


What a Mark:whistling2:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Neighter? I'm confused....what they did looks better than the rest of the house???

What am I missing here??


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

There are some federally funded weatherization programs through out certain areas, mostly for elderly and low income. This is all they are funded to do Nate. Just to give you an idea, they ran an ad for "journeyman class carpenters to install windows and doors. Starting wage......$13.00/hr". Now maybe you can understand what you're seeing and why.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

nEighter said:


> past few days the neighbor across the street has had a "crew" come over and do thing to her house. All energy efficiency stuff. Drilled holes in siding to shoot insulation in, then put caps on them, then yesterday replaced her windows.
> 
> When they went to put the caps on they didn't seal them in any way, and actually they are not really on there all that good IMO. BUT.. look at their paint job:
> 
> ...


 
Seems kinda judgemental. We've got no idea what the agreement was. Maybe the client wanted just exactly what was given. If that is the case then so be it. I agree it is a sh!tty job but again, maybe that is what the agreement was - who knows?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Klaw!!!!! you back man??


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Neighter? I'm confused....what they did looks better than the rest of the house???
> 
> What am I missing here??


Im a confused too, they just touched up the spots right and did not repaint the house correct?


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> Klaw!!!!! you back man??


 
With a vengence - brother. You and the wiseman continue to inspire me!!!


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> Im a confused too, they just touched up the spots right and did not repaint the house correct?


You talk like Mario:whistling2:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> You talk like Mario:whistling2:


lol it is my forum shorthand.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV;179527
Setting up rooms with drop clothes alone is different. One repaint required more drop clothes than a years worth of NC.
The point is you seemed to be implying that NC systems directly translate to the repaint jobs and we would all be amazed if we could see you work. NC and repaint do not directly translate.
There are more variables in repaint work than NC. Sure said:


> Dean
> 
> I disagree. Nc comes with more variables. 17 other trades. Done. More variables. More prep more filling, more paint by far being spread and more people damaging your finished work. No contest.
> 
> Residential is easier. It's just not easy to get and perform profitably without volume, which most resi specialist are not equipped to do.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dean
> 
> I disagree. Nc comes with more variables. 17 other trades. Done. More variables. More prep more filling, more paint by far being spread and more people damaging your finished work. No contest.
> 
> Residential is easier. It's just not easy to get and perform profitably without volume, which most resi specialist are not equipped to do.


Nope, you are wrong. I will say that the typical repaint has fewer variables than the typical high quality new construction. But large old homes, large remodel projects, etc introduce more variable. Shoot, the wacky things HO's can do to their homes alone before we get there are about 6.02x10^23 variables (and bonus points to anyone who knows what that number is without google).

New construction creates a more predictable substrate for you to work on. No nicotine build up, no goofy cleaners on woodwork that cause lack of adhesion, no painted over wallpaper, NO LEAD PAINT (case, point, match, series, etc), no latex painted over old unsanded oil, etc

Now, I do believe that high quality NC requires higher quality finishing skills than most repaint work. But again, the process is more predictable and repeatable.

I will accept your admission of error and add it to my signature line VP:jester:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Nope, you are wrong. I will say that the typical repaint has fewer variables than the typical high quality new construction. But large old homes, large remodel projects, etc introduce more variable. Shoot, the wacky things HO's can do to their homes alone before we get there are about 6.02x10^23 variables (and bonus points to anyone who knows what that number is without google).
> 
> New construction creates a more predictable substrate for you to work on. No nicotine build up, no goofy cleaners on woodwork that cause lack of adhesion, no painted over wallpaper, NO LEAD PAINT (case, point, match, series, etc), no latex painted over old unsanded oil, etc
> 
> ...


 
I am guessing Avogadro's number?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We have a winner! I should have known someone who likes numbers as much as you would recognize it right away!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

here is a favorite number of mine 9.11x10-31 {I am leaving out the units so you can't guess at it more easily.

The trick to these universal constants, is that the vast majority of them are really small in value, notice the how the power of the number above is raised to the minus 31 power. The only reason I guessed it was avogadro's is because the only other constant I can think of that is large in value is the speed of light which is 3x10^+8 M/S


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

either the charge of an electron or an angstrom?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

close, mass of an electron


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## 2buckcanuck (Dec 14, 2010)

uhmm why are you guys painters,shouldn't you guys be off building a nuclear bomb or rocket ship ????:whistling2:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I use to work for Uncle Sam working on digital detection algorithms for missile to missile intercepts.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I use to work for Uncle Sam working on digital detection algorithms for missile to missile intercepts.


typical, a man with a good pension and he is taking paint jobs from the real painters. :jester:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> typical, a man with a good pension and he is taking paint jobs from the real painters. :jester:


 LOL - I wish I had a pension.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

its my dream to see jp paint a cookie cutter.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I use to work for Uncle Sam working on digital detection algorithms for missile to missile intercepts.


Little more to Dan than meets the eye, eh?:yes:


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i reinvented the wheel, but its square.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Wise decision Dan.The painting field is much more lucrative!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Been watching the pissing contest on N/C vs. repaint. Think an important division is being left out and that is custom N/C and just plain old blow and go N/C. They are both very different in expectation and pay. 

Can do a typical (for this area) blow and go in 2-3 days. Prep, prime, spray paint, backrolll and trim, all for ****** wages. 

A custom home, where the GC wants a really nice finish takes much longer. Longer than the typical repaints we do and pay pretty darn good. 

Saying ALL N/C is easier, or ALL repaints are easier just skips to many variables and does not catagorize the job or expectations properly.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Good point. Hard to compare any type of job and apply the exact same procedures, although many of the skills/processes transfer, you have to know which is best for each type.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

aaron61 said:


> Wise decision Dan.The painting field is much more lucrative!


Trust me it hasn't been a serendipitous 'ride'. Not that I was going to stay with that job forever, but just as I got a good niche there - Howard Hughes bought up the company and operations moved to Tucson, AR. They offered me a job there and I declined - no way was I moving to a desert! Got another job working on a project subbed out by Mercedes - ever hear of that blind spot radar assist that alerts you if you are backing up into something - or the cruise contral radar assist, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_system

I was on that project back in '99. But I really hated that job and the people and left and started my own ISP company - on a dime I learned how to Admin in UNIX after a falling out with a partner. But a year and a half later and really frustrated with the business - you learn real fast about how it takes volume to make money especially when dialup accounts were going for $10 and website packages had dropped fast from about $20/month to like $7. Then I got a job as an IT/Systems/Network administrator a month after 'W' was sworn into office for the first time. After 9/11 - they cut all of our pay by 15% - then just after the new year - they laid my ass off. 

And I was never ever ever never able to get back into corporate America again - at least in my area high-tech had really damaged employment locally. At this point it was either work doing jobs like cashier, starbucks barista, moving boxes at a grocery store, or helping a friend paint - something I had done years before - two years later I had started my own company.

And that's how it became that all of you are so fortunate to have me around!!!!:thumbup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I do realize the differences between high quality (custom) NC and try to factor that in to my rating system. For me, the final deciding factor between very high end NC and very high end repaint comes down to the NC having a blank slate for the contractor to start with and the high end repaint in historical homes have a flawed canvas to start with plus lead.

That, and I REEEEAAAAALLLLLY want VP to say he is wrong and I am right so I can quote him. He could consider it a Christmas gift to me.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

DeanV said:


> That, and I REEEEAAAAALLLLLY want VP to say he is wrong and I am right so I can quote him. He could consider it a Christmas gift to me.


If Christmas wasn't tomorrow, I'd use this as a sig for a while.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I agree with VP. High end NC has a far greater degree of difficulty than residential repaints. 

I would also say that only 5% of painters even do high end new construction and do it at a high level.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Dean is just mad about my sig. :whistling2:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I agree with VP. High end NC has a far greater degree of difficulty than residential repaints.
> 
> I would also say that only 5% of painters even do high end new construction and do it at a high level.



NEPS is wrong and he can quote me if he likes.

I will say MOST high quality NC is tougher than MOST repaints. 

Most low end NC is easier than most repaints.

It is all good though, and I am glad we get to do a variety of painting in both NC and repaints.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> NEPS is wrong and he can quote me if he likes.
> .


 :no::laughing:


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

apples and oranges not even worth typing about. One crappy gc can make anything harder, and vice versa. Neither one of them are rocket science lol:001_tongue:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Sorry mods... I somehow posted twice and it went into report post mode.

I have nothing to report except to say that repaints are the easiest gig in painting.

People serve coffee and give tips. 

We freshen trim and add color to walls. Resi rocks.


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## Rob (Aug 9, 2009)

Repaints are easier for us too!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Rob said:


> Repaints are easier for us too!


I couldn't agree more. You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Sorry mods... I somehow posted twice and it went into report post mode.
> 
> I have nothing to report except to say that repaints are the easiest gig in painting.
> 
> ...


That says it all.:thumbup:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I'd venture to say that I don't think High end NC really exists very much. The past couple of veneer plaster jobs I saw in a couple of million+ NC homes were utterly horrible. A G.C. I know in a very wealthy area known for buidling high end homes pays his floor subs $0.70/SF to poly floors. The only time I ever see what I consider truly high end NC is on that show 'This old house'.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I'd venture to say that I don't think High end NC really exists very much. The past couple of veneer plaster jobs I saw in a couple of million+ NC homes were utterly horrible. A G.C. I know in a very wealthy area known for buidling high end homes pays his floor subs $0.70/SF to poly floors. The only time I ever see what I consider truly high end NC is on that show 'This old house'.


Daniel

I'm concerned about you. There are moments when your thoughts are characterized by profound lucidity that is grounded in accurate assessment of reality. At these moments, you could change the industry. 

There are other moments where that hard won credibility drifts right back out into a sea of insurmountable confusion and misinformation.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Daniel
> 
> I'm concerned about you. There are moments when your thoughts are characterized by profound lucidity that is grounded in accurate assessment of reality. At these moments, you could change the industry.
> 
> There are other moments where that hard won credibility drifts right back out into a sea of insurmountable confusion and misinformation.


What can you say, I am an enigma. BTW - which one was I in the previous post, the former or latter?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Has the industry changed that much since I hung up the brushes? For me high end repaints were more difficult, more time consuming, and harder to estimate and to sell than high end NC. 

This is considering the time spent (on repaints) to scrape, sand and feather old paint, strip window stools, patch and repair walls (let alone wash calcimine), remove caulk, re-caulk, prime, and two coats.

For us NC was a matter of priming, caulking, and two coats with a light sand between coats (on woodwork). Much easier to estimate and perform. And now with the proliferation of spray, I would think NC would be even easier. 

Tell me what I am not understanding, it's been awhile. I must be missing something.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Spraying ceilings, walls, and trim all the same color can be taxing:whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OH, and setting nails and filling nail holes, and other dings. "Making the carpenter what he ain't"

That's all tedious, yes, but from my recollection not more difficult than prepping previous paint that has been neglected and abused for 15 - 20 years. 

Or those times when some hack or HO applied a vinyl over an oil SG with minimal prep. !!!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

daArch said:


> Has the industry changed that much since I hung up the brushes? For me high end repaints were more difficult, more time consuming, and harder to estimate and to sell than high end NC.
> 
> This is considering the time spent (on repaints) to scrape, sand and feather old paint, strip window stools, patch and repair walls (let alone wash calcimine), remove caulk, re-caulk, prime, and two coats.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. I don't think a lot of these guys know what a true repaint on a 100+ year old New England neglected home can be like. I once went to roll paint on a wall, and the old paint on the wall came off onto my roller in sheets!!$%#$%%!!!!

And then having to deal with a mad homeowner as if it was my fault. Painting ceilings with calcimine is always a thrill - people asking you to repaint cabinets that they had previously painted with crappy latex with no primer not to mention no cleaning. I hate NC mostly because I think GC's are idiots or just to use to always getting their way. If a GC was 100% out of the lives of the homeowner and it was solely between the homeowner and the painter - I'd rather paint NC all day long.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

daArch said:


> Or those times when some hack or HO applied a vinyl over an oil SG with minimal prep. !!!


There is so much of that around here - peeling latex interior doors. I think a good TSP wash of older oil paint with todays 100% acrylic paint would probably stick fine.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Here is my case and point for a tougher residential than my highest end NC to date:

The repaint is an 80 year oldish cottage on Lake Michigan. Lead paint through out. 3 layers of wallpaper applied to raw plaster. Settling cracks all over ceilings, corners cracked, cracks showing through 3 layers of wallpaper plus signs of water damage. Looks like some calcimine type peeling on ceilings that have been redone poorly several times. Some plaster damaged to the wood lathe underneath. 4x2 wood windows with muntins throughout, mix of oil trim paint and latex over unprimed or prepped oil trim paint. A lot of wall repair, recaulking trim, etc. Some built-in cabinets to do. Even if you prep the house like crazy, it still will not be awesome, just much improved. You will finish this job wishing you could have done more.

This would be a tougher than any $2-5 million dollar home I have worked on and when you are done, you would still not be completely satisfied with end product. In the NC work, while you will always wish this looked a little more even on the stain or this piece was a little smoother, you walk away happy with the end result. Not the case with the repaint.

The cottage has a higher cost per sq.ft. than any NC I have done to date. And is nowhere near as luxurious as the NC homes.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> OH, and setting nails and filling nail holes, and other dings. "Making the carpenter what he ain't"
> 
> That's all tedious, yes, but from my recollection not more difficult than prepping previous paint that has been neglected and abused for 15 - 20 years.
> 
> Or those times when some hack or HO applied a vinyl over an oil SG with minimal prep. !!!


Alot a caulk & a little paint makes a carpenter what he aint!:thumbup:


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I vote repaints are more difficult. More difficult to bid,more difficult customers.
Am I being difficult?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Here is my case and point for a tougher residential than my highest end NC to date:
> 
> The repaint is an 80 year oldish cottage on Lake Michigan. Lead paint through out. 3 layers of wallpaper applied to raw plaster. Settling cracks all over ceilings, corners cracked, cracks showing through 3 layers of wallpaper plus signs of water damage. Looks like some calcimine type peeling on ceilings that have been redone poorly several times. Some plaster damaged to the wood lathe underneath. 4x2 wood windows with muntins throughout, mix of oil trim paint and latex over unprimed or prepped oil trim paint. A lot of wall repair, recaulking trim, etc. Some built-in cabinets to do. Even if you prep the house like crazy, it still will not be awesome, just much improved. You will finish this job wishing you could have done more.
> 
> ...


Can't argue with that one. But isn't that the exception and not the rule? I think for arguments sake people are comparing generalities.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

its all been done before.
but egos still like to be stroked.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Dean - I am right there with you. When my sis bought her late 40's New England ranch house. The interior was wallpaper on plaster, some rooms were 2 and 3 coats of wallpaper - some were painted, some were wallpaper with a layer of painted wallpaper beneath. Heck one 10x12 bedroom it took 4 people a total of 6 hours, or 24 man-hours to strip all the wallpaper off. Not to mention some walls looked like a firing squad had been there and used the wallpaper to hide the 'evidence'.

But then again there is the time when I was about to forge a relationship with a Designer and on her home her builder remodeled several rooms along with an addition. Along the way he admitted that he wasn't able to use his Ace plasterer because he was busy, and even admitted his ace plasterer had time to come over and chat and investigate the job and said he thought it was crap work. As well he admitted to paying the guy $25/board and materials to veneer plaster. 

What ensued was a plaster job where the guy added so much lime to the mix {in an effort for it not to set up quickly} that he had compromised the plaster and it was like soft chaulk. You could literally put your hands on the walls and there was so much dust it was like you had put your hand on a dusty school chaulk board. 

But desperate for money - I took on the work anyways - and after contacting Pratt&Lambert headquarters for advice - I washed down the walls with vinegar, rinsed, and let sit for a few more days until dry. Didn't matter - after the job was done using the best acrylic primer in the industry and finest paints - there was little adhesion to the walls when the designer/homeowner had put up several items with blue masking tape to figure out where she wanted stuff - and it pulled the paint clear off down to the plaster - a crumbling plaster at that!

As well all the bare wood trim was this oozing oily poplar - that I had steel wool with acetone - and then sand down all the raised grain from that action for a couple of days. Yeah NC has it's perils.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

It's worth noting that it's not reliable to draw a general conclusion from that one job that happened to you one time (good or bad) or that one type of project that is so labor intensive (profitable or not). 

It's important to identify patterns and pursue the markets that are best suited to your goals, then build your business to serve them.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> It's worth noting that it's not reliable to draw a general conclusion from that one job that happened to you one time (good or bad) or that one type of project that is so labor intensive (profitable or not).
> 
> It's important to identify patterns and pursue the markets that are best suited to your goals, then build your business to serve them.


Scott I assume if you can forge a good relationship with a good GC and know in advance all the nuances - sure you can make it work. I got burned by this GC that later found out was screwing all his subs and making clients unhappy - found this after my first $1,000 check bounced, then got burned with the second contractor because I felt like I was the fall-guy for his lousy decisions to get a cheaper plaster contractor - and I know this for a fact because I am a veneer plasterer as well and I know what shoddy work is. And that job really killed me - because she was a referral from a great customer I had done loads of work for - and she loved my work. Then when I worked for her, nothing went right - and it affected my relationship with my previous customer as well and lost future work from them as well. And all I tried to do was bust hump and do more steps to make sure the job was good. I think that was the point in time I really lost all my referrals and all momentum. That's when I was transitioning and jumped ship_. _I have had a few good clients since for painting - haven't chased the work at all, I think of it as bonus now a days when I do get it. And everytime a GC calls me, I never return the phone call. I am done with them. It would have to be a great referral through networking for me to investigate it now - the few I have entertained where just price shopping along with the best of homeowners. Now I just don't bother - their messages get deleted everytime - I don't have enough time to consider it anymore.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> It's worth noting that it's not reliable to draw a general conclusion from that one job that happened to you one time (good or bad) or that one type of project that is so labor intensive (profitable or not).
> 
> It's important to identify patterns and pursue the markets that are best suited to your goals, then build your business to serve them.


Or better yet, be able to identify what a job needs (repaint or NC) and adjust your procedures, systems, and materials to best suit the customer and the situation.

We can NOT be one trick ponies and expect to survive.

IMO

I always found that each job called for it's own unique approach.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dan

If you throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's difficult to build a business. 

I could sit here all day and write about builders I'd never work with again. They far outnumber the ones I do prefer to work with. 

The key is to talk to other trade subs before getting involved. Then, once involved, proactive communication. That's the only way it can work. It requires a crew, which also must be managed. These two key areas are where alot of paint contractors struggle to make it work, then write off an entire market. Then become frustrated resi guys trying to compete on price with every trunk slammer in town. 





plainpainter said:


> Scott I assume if you can forge a good relationship with a good GC and know in advance all the nuances - sure you can make it work. I got burned by this GC that later found out was screwing all his subs and making clients unhappy - found this after my first $1,000 check bounced, then got burned with the second contractor because I felt like I was the fall-guy for his lousy decisions to get a cheaper plaster contractor - and I know this for a fact because I am a veneer plasterer as well and I know what shoddy work is. And that job really killed me - because she was a referral from a great customer I had done loads of work for - and she loved my work. Then when I worked for her, nothing went right - and it affected my relationship with my previous customer as well and lost future work from them as well. And all I tried to do was bust hump and do more steps to make sure the job was good. I think that was the point in time I really lost all my referrals and all momentum. That's when I was transitioning and jumped ship_. _I have had a few good clients since for painting - haven't chased the work at all, I think of it as bonus now a days when I do get it. And everytime a GC calls me, I never return the phone call. I am done with them. It would have to be a great referral through networking for me to investigate it now - the few I have entertained where just price shopping along with the best of homeowners. Now I just don't bother - their messages get deleted everytime - I don't have enough time to consider it anymore.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Or better yet, be able to identify what a job needs (repaint or NC) and adjust your procedures, systems, and materials to best suit the customer and the situation.
> 
> We can NOT be one trick ponies and expect to survive.
> 
> ...


It seems that the one trick ponies have had the toughest survival rate in recent years.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> If you throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's difficult to build a business.
> 
> ...


Scott, I know what you are saying, it's just at the time I was so small of a company any mishap was enough to put me under. If there is ever an opportunity that arises that is good, I'll go with it - but I am not pursuing it anymore. And I don't work like that anyways - I am not just a painting sub - I try to not compete with all the truck slammers out there. I take on jobs they can't do - like rip an old ceiling down, put up a new blueboard, veneer plaster, install custom stained crown moulding, paint ceiling - paint a few more rooms on top of that. That's how I work - I take on the jobs other guys can't do - most painters can't install crown moulding, most painters don't know how to veneer plaster - I do. So I get these jobs that are half way between a paint job and having to get a G.C. to come in and bid - that's where I am happy with.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> It seems that the one trick ponies have had the toughest survival rate in recent years.


ya think ?


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Tomato or Tomata --- Everyone's specialty is the hardest.

Who friggin cares as long as you get off your ass, get some work and be profitable at it.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Tomato or Tomata --- Everyone's specialty is the hardest.
> 
> Who friggin cares as long as you get off your ass, get some work and be profitable at it.



Ummm, that would be tomato or tomato. Say it: "Dean is right, and he can quote me."


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

How'd this go from JP to "Adventures in Failing To Make A Living In The Paint Industry?"


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> How'd this go from JP to "Adventures in Failing To Make A Living In The Paint Industry?"


Haha! I gave up on any notion of trying to sort it out! Maybe just retitle it to "Random Thoughts"! :whistling2:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Ummm, that would be tomato or tomato. Say it: "Dean is right, and he can quote me."


Actually it's tomatoe or tomato.

We are both wrong and you can quote me on that.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Why does averything taste like chicken but turkey taske like turkey?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Tomato or Tomata --- Everyone's specialty is the hardest.
> 
> Who friggin cares as long as you get off your ass, get some work and be profitable at it.


That's the irony. Paint contracting is not as difficult as it is made out to be. Building a business is challenging, and not for everyone.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Just read through all this. What i want to know is...... Why can't you guys just tell me how you _feel. _Your all just so wishy washy on the matter! :whistling2::jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> *Why can't you guys just tell me how you feel. *



I feel pretty
Oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gay
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me today
I feel charming
Oh so charming
It's alarming how charming I feel
And so pretty
That I hardly can believe I'm real
See the pretty girl in that mirror there?
Who can that attractive girl be?
Such a pretty face
Such a pretty dress
Such a pretty smile
Such a pretty me!
I feel stunning
And entrancing
Feel like running
And dancing for joy
For I'm loved
By a pretty wonderful boy


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Just read through all this. What i want to know is...... Why can't you guys just tell me how you _feel. _Your all just so wishy washy on the matter! :whistling2::jester:


Believe one thing. I have much more to say. But I fear RCP and the ban stick. :bangin:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> Believe one thing. I have much more to say. But I fear RCP and the ban stick. :bangin:


Go ahead, darling, just no politics!


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Is that Dr. Ruth? 

I don't think we can go into depth on her subjects here either. (are you TRYING to ban me?)


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Don't worry. I would rule it entrapment and over turn the ban.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Pulled quote: It's like Fenner says, craftsmanship is dead, and the 'market' has voted for price - and we have to as business men sometimes retire our old standards we loved in favor of production machines. Maybe Pratt & Lambert paints are some of the very best quality craftsmanship paints out there, but perhaps it's a 'dinosaur' product when it comes to production.
<end>

I dont know who Fenner is or where that originated but I dont agree with that in the least other than price is key with our down economy. You do not have to sacrifice quality at all, not the least, you can improve quality and do it faster! You can produce top quality workmanship at production rates and bid a job low and be profitable if you had to.

Thats all I ever talk about doing. I dont really talk about anything else. System what?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Jack

I think you are helping people to think about things. Complacency kills.




jack pauhl said:


> Pulled quote: It's like Fenner says, craftsmanship is dead, and the 'market' has voted for price - and we have to as business men sometimes retire our old standards we loved in favor of production machines. Maybe Pratt & Lambert paints are some of the very best quality craftsmanship paints out there, but perhaps it's a 'dinosaur' product when it comes to production.
> <end>
> 
> I dont know who Fenner is or where that originated but I dont agree with that in the least other than price is key with our down economy. You do not have to sacrifice quality at all, not the least, you can improve quality and do it faster! You can produce top quality workmanship at production rates and bid a job low and be profitable if you had to.
> ...


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

My posts view is all whacked. I cant find the post I pulled that quote from. I thought I replied to it right after it was posted so I thought my reply would be below it. I dont see it. Anyone know the #?

Sure you guys dont wanna talk BEHR? Maybe after the holidays? j/k tis the season to paint red


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## bigstrokes (Aug 14, 2010)

*How Does Behr Stack Up?*

Thought I'd add a comment here.

I've been a contractor since 1979 and always prided myself in using the best materials, paint included. But after 10 years of strictly Sherwin Williams paint I've had enough. I'm spening $45 gal. for ProClassic Bright White latex for all my window and door casings and baseboards, and the stuff is a downright pain in the butt, at least here in Hawaii with the humidity. I don't even try to brush it any more, I spay it exclusively.
But I finally gave up and am using Behr bright white satin and I can say that it's easier to use, I can brush it on, and it looks just as good.
Now, I know darn well it's not as good... all I need to do is get a handful on it and rinse it off and you can feel how much thinner it is. But, do I care? We live in a disposable society and I've just had to accept it. Plus, you would think SW would put a litte effort into making their PC more user friendly! HELLO? (Their website isn't even user friendly.)
So I just gave up with them. I'm still using their flat paint for walls because I think it'll hold up better and it's easier to use. But if PC is $45 gal and Behr is $24 gal, and Behr is easier to use, and Behr looks just as good....
Duh!!!


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