# Vinyl safe paint?



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Can anyone explain to me how certain paint companies can make a "vinyl safe" paint in which someone can paint vinyl siding a color that is considerably darker than the original siding color? While providing any kind of assurance that the vinyl won't warp? I don't understand how they have managed to defy physics. A darker color absorbs and retains more heat than a lighter color. There is a law actually.

And how do they guarantee that the quality of the vinyl siding is sufficient to absorb this excess heat? There are thousands of vinyl compositions and various thicknesses on the market.

It sounds more to me like they have covered their collective butts on the label info more then an actual product enhancement.

Or they have somehow managed to break the first law of thermodynamics.


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

I cannot explain it. I am actually more concerned about the vinyl being properly installed than I am what type it is. I think siding installed too tightly (too close to J channel, screws too tight, etc) will warp before correctly- installed siding will that has been painted a darker color. Apparently BM and SW feel confident selling their vinyl-safe lines. So far, I haven't had any problems with the SW options.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Could be that due to the chemical makeup of the paint it expands or contracts more or less than normal paint, at a rate and amount closer to vinyl's? Just spitballing ideas as they come to me, no idea what their justification is.

Reading the TDS for Revive, you still can't paint it except a darker color from the specific palette. I seem to recall that it uses (and excludes) certain tints because of their properties. I know some colors that are visually very similar to most people actually have very different tint bases, and that would actually impact the amount of heat absorbed.


Just as an example of that, you can mix a black with nothing but black tint in Gennex, and a black that takes some black, some grey, a bit of blue, some magenta, and in the end they look identical to most people. But the second will actually absorb less heat.


----------



## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

Woodford is correct, it's about using vinyl safe tints to achieve correct color.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Proalliance coatings!
I have done 4 vinyl houses from light to mid-tone with out any problem i can vouch for that I even did my own house and I have the old smooth vinyl went from white to sage green it's been for 4 years and had no problem.
I am not SW fan but their Safe vinyl colors is good and don't use the Duration use the Resilient.
The only problem with painting vinyl is in the cold weather you will see some of the old color where the pieces meet i guess from shrinking or the vinyl move. Just spray no brush.
Hope this help.


----------



## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

I've done 2 vinyl homes. One with A 100 and the other with the $300/fiver stuff from sherwin.

Dulux says that diamond will stick/bond to vinyl, but don't warranty warping.

Sherwin gets away with it because they don't use blacks, oranges, etc when they tint, plus other things. They refuse to print the formula as well


----------



## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Colors must have a light reflectance value of 50 or better. LRV is listed in the fan deck index. Some tints are eliminated in the makeup of darker colors.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

journeymanPainter said:


> Sherwin gets away with it because they don't use blacks, oranges, etc when they tint, plus other things. They refuse to print the formula as well


Ben Moore Vinyl Safe palette is the same way; I believe there's a green tint they like to avoid, and there's one yellow and one red that don't play nicely as well.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

So in other words, they have eliminated certain colors/pigments to the point where they feel confident that they are making enough profit to cover any potential problems. Loss analysis. Kinda like Ford and the exploding Pinto. We can save enough money/make enough profit to cover any warrantee or lawsuits.

Of course there is no data sheets on this and the only thing you can find from SW or BM is sell sheets. Which brings me to two conclusions. Either SW found a major breakthrough in thermodynamic physics and didn't publish their findings for peer revue, as is the norm too do when you find something that could completely over-turn physics as we know it, or they are hedging their bets on a simple color/pigment control.

I take it that none of us are physics professors? Me neither, I just have a degree in aerodynamics. 

Not saying this is wrong at all, but, some of their literature and web info is a little mis-leading on what they have actually done. I guess it just me questioning someone's marketing again.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I can give you the Tech Data Sheet for the Revive if you'd like? Or is that not what you're referring to.

I can't speak for SW and their profit/loss policy, but that isn't generally how BM operates in my experience. Unlike SW, they actually have a reputation that would cost them considerable money should it become blemished. SW already has a spotty reputation, they just get by because of their marketing/market share/pricing.

I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think this would have to be a miracle to work. Clearly we all understand that different colors reflect different wavelengths of light and thus absorb heat at different rates. I'm curious why your immediate conclusion would be that the chemists at these two companies clearly understand that, figured out which colors would work, and then figured out which wouldn't... and then included the ones that wouldn't work anyways. If some of them work fine (which they obviously do), why would you not assume that these curated collections specifically for this goal are actually the ones they found that work... fine.

It'd clearly be much MORE profitable to sell a collection that actually works than one that has a decent loss rate. Even if you were still in the black, you'd be WAY more in the black by not having to cover lawsuits and failures. One failure on a small house could erode the profits for thousands of dollars of paint sales. There's no reason these companies would be aiming for that.


----------



## McGregor (Nov 5, 2013)

I have painted vinyl with 100 % Acrylic latex Ben Moore a good few times, went back 10 years later and looked fine. No need for fancy paints, just 100 % acrylic


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I just got off the phone with one of my suppliers tech line. Pratt and Lambert actually. I was told that P&L was in development of their own color collection for vinyl safe colors, and after 4 years of testing dropped the idea. There are too many uncontrollable variables to put something like that out to the dealers. BUT, I have also found out that there are a few brands of vinyl siding that they tested (they wouldn't tell me what brand) that can't even hold the weight of two coats of Accolade exterior without a measurable sag on longer runs, installed using the recommended installation procedure.

woodford, do you have access to any kind of warranty paperwork on Revive using the vinyl safe colors? I bet there is some kind of disclosure about BM not being responsible for the quality/installation of the siding.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Neither of the SW products (Superpaint,Duration) tinted in the vinyl safe colors, have any warranty against warping or deforming of the vinyl siding. Neither does Revive as far as I can see. All of them have disclosures in their warranties that they are not responsible for structural defects or failures, and that applies to the vinyl siding. So be forewarned, that if you do paint vinyl siding with any "vinyl safe" colors, that the paint companies are not legally obligated to fix any "structural" failures.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Yup, warrantee is for the paint only for peel, blister, weathering, etc.

Honestly, though, there isn't any way they could (or should, imo) take responsibility for the vinyl siding itself. To me, that'd be like painting a rotten log then blaming the paint when it falls apart.

But, it should probably be noted, I have pretty strong feelings about vinyl siding in the first place and think it's a bit of a sham. Vinyl siding is almost all garbage and when people ask me about it, I tell them to replace it if they've got it or put something else on if they're considering it. The only good reason to use vinyl in my opinion is if you're about to sell a house and you want it to look good and don't mind giving the next owners garbage quality siding.


----------



## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I think it's just that there is actually more wiggle room for painting vinyl than the old "never go darker" mantra would lead us to believe. 

I've seen a few houses painted darker than original with regular acrylic with no ill effects. Nothing drastic, but stuff like white to a medium beige and off white to tan, and in one case light blue. Saying never go darker as a general rule is safest, but maybe it's a little over cautious. 

They might just be exploring this wiggle room and maxing it out. That would allow you to go darker with certain colors that didn't absorb a great deal more heat than the lighter color. It would still be more, just not enough more to cause catastrophe. 

Doesn't change the laws of physics, just cheats a little on the laws of painting vinyl.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> I think it's just that there is actually more wiggle room for painting vinyl than the old "never go darker" mantra would lead us to believe.
> 
> I've seen a few houses painted darker than original with regular acrylic with no ill effects. Nothing drastic, but stuff like white to a medium beige and off white to tan, and in one case light blue. Saying never go darker as a general rule is safest, but maybe it's a little over cautious.
> 
> ...


 I was always told to not use a color tinted in anything deeper than a midtone base for vinyl, so maybe they are getting a little wiggle room with the pigment/color restrictions.

I just don't like the idea of loosing more paint sales because they have somehow subliminally suggested to consumers that there is some kind of magic that will keep their siding from warping and that there is some kind of guarantee that it won't, and to not use anything but "vinyl safe" paint. This to me is going down the same path as "one coat", "paint and primer", paint and primer and sealer" "stain and sealer", "stain and waterproofer" and a bunch of other hooey. There is a lot of "detail" missing in all of those product marketing plans. Only this one could lead to some pretty catastrophic failures as opposed to just a scrape and repaint. Again, I think this will manifest itself once the box store brands start going with it. Like I said, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Yup, warrantee is for the paint only for peel, blister, weathering, etc.
> 
> Honestly, though, there isn't any way they could (or should, imo) take responsibility for the vinyl siding itself. To me, that'd be like painting a rotten log then blaming the paint when it falls apart.
> 
> But, it should probably be noted, I have pretty strong feelings about vinyl siding in the first place and think it's a bit of a sham. Vinyl siding is almost all garbage and when people ask me about it, I tell them to replace it if they've got it or put something else on if they're considering it. The only good reason to use vinyl in my opinion is if you're about to sell a house and you want it to look good and don't mind giving the next owners garbage quality siding.


You do have a point. As long as you paint the house in April or May and sell it before the end of June you can paint the vinyl siding any color you want!


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

To bad I wasn't on this forum a few years ago when I first saw Restore. Everyone thought I was nuts when I told them that was going to be an epic failure too.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Proalliance coatings said:


> To bad I wasn't on this forum a few years ago when I first saw Restore. Everyone thought I was nuts when I told them that was going to be an epic failure too.


I'm pretty sure most people with a brain knew it was going to be garbage as soon as we encountered it :thumbup:


If I hear about a bunch of failures with the Revive I'll swallow my words, but I don't see anything wrong with marketing vinyl safe paint as long as the colors actually work okay (which, from what I've heard so far, they do). If they don't, we'll know this summer- for sure. It's not like Restore where the time it would take is kind of misty and varying. If the vinyl safe paints fail, they will fail right away.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> I'm pretty sure most people with a brain knew it was going to be garbage as soon as we encountered it :thumbup:
> 
> 
> If I hear about a bunch of failures with the Revive I'll swallow my words, but I don't see anything wrong with marketing vinyl safe paint as long as the colors actually work okay (which, from what I've heard so far, they do). If they don't, we'll know this summer- for sure. It's not like Restore where the time it would take is kind of misty and varying. If the vinyl safe paints fail, they will fail right away.


Yeah they should, but I'm not really doubting BM. The vinyl safe colors from SW have been out for a few years now.

But you wouldn't believe how many people thought the Restore products were going to be the bee's knees around here.


----------



## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

NACE said:


> Colors must have a light reflectance value of 50 or better. LRV is listed in the fan deck index. Some tints are eliminated in the makeup of darker colors.


That is the correct answer, LRV ...and 100% acrylic.


----------



## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

Some pictures from before and after than 4 years later, and the SW color safe can.
Hope this will help.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Woodford said:


> I can give you the Tech Data Sheet for the Revive if you'd like? Or is that not what you're referring to.
> 
> I can't speak for SW and their profit/loss policy, but that isn't generally how BM operates in my experience. Unlike SW, they actually have a reputation that would cost them considerable money should it become blemished. SW already has a spotty reputation, they just get by because of their marketing/market share/pricing.
> 
> ...


If BM keeps pushing the Arborcoat semi-trans and semisolid as a deck-coating, their rep is gonna get blemished in that market. I'm not bashing BM in general, I buy from them every month. But my experience with that product hasn't been good and the reviews I read online (not just here) say its a loser.


----------



## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> If BM keeps pushing the Arborcoat semi-trans and semisolid as a deck-coating, their rep is gonna get blemished in that market. I'm not bashing BM in general, I buy from them every month. But my experience with that product hasn't been good and the reviews I read online (not just here) say its a loser.


Would love to argue with that, but I really can't. You're right, the product does need help.


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

I wonder if they used vinyl safe. Been painted for a few years. I saw what looked like a little warping in the purple, nothing terrible though.


----------

