# Graco HVLP 9.0/9.5, Graco X19, or 3M PPS Accuspray with Compressor



## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

I am a woodworker/finish carpenter and my painter is so backed up (very happy for him!) that I am starting to do my own finishing. I have always done my own clears/stains and painted my more "utility grade" projects but never painted my own cabinets/built-ins. My painter can get a much better finish in a shorter amount of time on the more "high end" projects than me.

Right now I have a Graco Ultimate cordless with an 210 FFLP tip that works great for the more utility grade projects.

I mostly do kitchen cabinets, built-ins, furniture, trim, and doors. I usually spray 2 coats of SW Premium Primer with 2 coats SW Pro Classic but I want to start spraying some pre-cat because the finish is so smooth and the short dry times would help my work flow.

While doing a ton of research I am trying to decide between Graco HVLP9/9.5 ( nice because less overspray in my shop with no spray booth) the Graco X19 (good price point, bigger hopper, and might get the same finish as HVLP with FFLP tips) or the 3M PPS Accuspray (nice because I can switch tips with no contamination since i spray a lot of different finishes but will have to buy at least a makita 5200 compressor to run it)

While doing the last few days of research I have a whole new respect for all you professional painters. My head is completely spinning with painting terms and systems!


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

I wouldn't choose either of them if I were in your position. I'd either opt for the Titan ED 655 if you go airless, or the Apollo Precision if you choose turbine. As much as I really like the Apollo system, especially their 7700t gun, I'd stick with airless. You'll have a much broader selection of paints to spray without spending copious amounts of time trying to figure out how to achieve a nice finish through a turbine.

ED 655 with some TriTech FF tips will get you there, and at less than half the cost of a turbine rig.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Don't fool yourself thinking you'll have no overspray with an hvlp setup. It's just a finer mist of overspray that lingers..If most of your finishing is "in the shop", it's really nice to have a cup gun for running multiple coatings\primers. I run the accuspray for all my primers driven by a 60 gal. compressor. I spray all my top coats with graco 490airless. It really depends what products your going to spray. Just get 1 of each. 😅


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Don't fool yourself thinking you'll have no overspray with an hvlp setup. It's just a finer mist of overspray that lingers..If most of your finishing is "in the shop", it's really nice to have a cup gun for running multiple coatings\primers. I run the accuspray for all my primers driven by a 60 gal. compressor. I spray all my top coats with graco 490airless. It really depends what products your going to spray. Just get 1 of each. 😅


HVLP has potential for finer atomization, and also less overspray.









@jrbrogan1 - The Graco 9.5 is powerful, the (edge 2 plus) cup system allows for spraying upside down, and it has an auto on/off feature in the pro comp model.

As kevyn stated, there will still be overspray in your shop no matter what you choose. Consider creating a temporary spray booth to contain overspray.

*Use caution when spraying anything flammable (solvent-based) as open flames and motors can spark it when made into an aerosol.


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I wouldn't choose either of them if I were in your position. I'd either opt for the Titan ED 655 if you go airless, or the Apollo Precision if you choose turbine. As much as I really like the Apollo system, especially their 7700t gun, I'd stick with airless. You'll have a much broader selection of paints to spray without spending copious amounts of time trying to figure out how to achieve a nice finish through a turbine.
> 
> ED 655 with some TriTech FF tips will get you there, and at less than half the cost of a turbine rig.


This is perfect. Thanks for the info. Yea ease of use is probably best for me because I am only spraying about once every two weeks and it is a small part of the overall project so I don't have a ton of time to be fine tuning/messing with settings.

From what reading I have done the Titan ED655 and Graco X19 seem to be about the same setup. Any reason to go with Tiitan over Graco?


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Don't fool yourself thinking you'll have no overspray with an hvlp setup. It's just a finer mist of overspray that lingers..If most of your finishing is "in the shop", it's really nice to have a cup gun for running multiple coatings\primers. I run the accuspray for all my primers driven by a 60 gal. compressor. I spray all my top coats with graco 490airless. It really depends what products your going to spray. Just get 1 of each. 😅


That accuspray system is really enticing because I spray so many different materials. Problem is I do not have a compressor large enough to power it so I am looking at purchasing a compressor ($750-$1000) and the accuspray system ($350). At that point, I am almost at the price of and HVLP turbine and well beyond an airless setup.

Lol on getting both. I am really trying to only use one setup and get it really dialed in. The less time I spend fussing with learning/the settings, the more money I can make on the project.


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

Holland said:


> HVLP has potential for finer atomization, and also less overspray.
> View attachment 113586
> 
> 
> ...


That spray booth is awesome! Thanks for sharing. I usually just tape up a bunch of painters plastic but have been eyeing those spray booths by Paint Line Co. They are pretty pricey though so the one you sent me might be the way I go. I am definitely getting that spray twirly and drying rack from them.

I dont spray expensive materials like an autobody shop but it would be nice to waste less with an HVLP. It looks like AAA is the best of both worlds but the starting Graco 395 AAA is like $5k. Ouch.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

jrbrogan1 said:


> This is perfect. Thanks for the info. Yea ease of use is probably best for me because I am only spraying about once every two weeks and it is a small part of the overall project so I don't have a ton of time to be fine tuning/messing with settings.
> 
> From what reading I have done the Titan ED655 and Graco X19 seem to be about the same setup. Any reason to go with Tiitan over Graco?


The ED655 uses a diaphram pump. Smoother fluid output than the graco which uses a short piston and no transducer. Titan superior for fine finish work. @MikeCalifornia has a setup with the ED655 and DIY AAA setup with a separate compressor.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

jrbrogan1 said:


> That spray booth is awesome! Thanks for sharing. I usually just tape up a bunch of painters plastic but have been eyeing those spray booths by Paint Line Co. They are pretty pricey though so the one you sent me might be the way I go. I am definitely getting that spray twirly and drying rack from them.
> 
> I dont spray expensive materials like an autobody shop but it would be nice to waste less with an HVLP. It looks like AAA is the best of both worlds but the starting Graco 395 AAA is like $5k. Ouch.


I've always thought of AAA as geared more for production work. I am small scale residential painter who primarily deals in re-paints, so I have never considered it an option. AAA is known for having a high transfer efficiency, but sprays at over 2000psi, as far as I know. Whereas a typical HVLP sprays around 10psi.

I like HVLP for small projects: 1-2 quarts. HVLP also has a high transfer efficiency. The last set of cabinets I painted (all 34 doors *and* boxes x2 coats front and back, and only used 3/4 of a gallon total), so it was great for that, and clean-up is a breeze. I have used HVLP for years for years on small exterior projects, and only lately started trying to use them for fine finish work (as is their intended use, and for which they are best suited). They offer a lot of control, low overspray, and fine atomization. (See also "Pressure Pots/Remote Cup")

The ed655 is a really great unit for small projects (think 1 gallon, or maybe two). I will never use my full size airless rig for small projects again! The gravity-fed ed655 diaphragm gives a smooth delivery of paint, non-pulsing, even with a short hose (unlike most airless), and ideally matched with a fine finish tip. @MikeCalifornia is the resident expert, and would be well worth your time looking at his previous posts for more information.


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## contactalessiam (10 mo ago)

Holland said:


> HVLP has potential for finer atomization, and also less overspray.
> View attachment 113586
> 
> 
> ...


yes, exactly HVLP has great potential in paint spraying technology especially wagner sprayers has great capability control overspray.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

contactalessiam said:


> yes, exactly HVLP has great potential in paint spraying technology especially wagner sprayers has great capability control overspray.


Titan Capspray (owned by Wagner) has 4, 5 and 6 stage turbines.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

contactalessiam said:


> yes, exactly HVLP has great potential in paint spraying technology especially wagner sprayers has great capability control overspray.


@contactalessiam ,You should introduce yourself to the group..


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## contactalessiam (10 mo ago)

finishesbykevyn said:


> @contactalessiam ,You should introduce yourself to the group..


Hi,
I am Alessia. First I wanna say, that this is really a wonderful platform to share painting ideas over here.
Thanks alot.

I am running my own painting business and I’m still learning new things everyday about how to nail the perfect paint job. I have my team, we are working together to share painting experience with others.
In addition to myself, I started blog to share knowledge, to connect you with painting experts!


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> The ED655 uses a diaphram pump. Smoother fluid output than the graco which uses a short piston and no transducer. Titan superior for fine finish work. @MikeCalifornia has a setup with the ED655 and DIY AAA setup with a separate compressor.


 Awesome! Thanks for the info. Ill have to check out that DIY AAA setup


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

Holland said:


> I've always thought of AAA as geared more for production work. I am small scale residential painter who primarily deals in re-paints, so I have never considered it an option. AAA is known for having a high transfer efficiency, but sprays at over 2000psi, as far as I know. Whereas a typical HVLP sprays around 10psi.
> 
> I like HVLP for small projects: 1-2 quarts. HVLP also has a high transfer efficiency. The last set of cabinets I painted (all 34 doors *and* boxes x2 coats front and back, and only used 3/4 of a gallon total), so it was great for that, and clean-up is a breeze. I have used HVLP for years for years on small exterior projects, and only lately started trying to use them for fine finish work (as is their intended use, and for which they are best suited). They offer a lot of control, low overspray, and fine atomization. (See also "Pressure Pots/Remote Cup")
> 
> The ed655 is a really great unit for small projects (think 1 gallon, or maybe two). I will never use my full size airless rig for small projects again! The gravity-fed ed655 diaphragm gives a smooth delivery of paint, non-pulsing, even with a short hose (unlike most airless), and ideally matched with a fine finish tip. @MikeCalifornia is the resident expert, and would be well worth your time looking at his previous posts for more information.


Thanks Holland! I knew that HVLP was more efficient than Airless but I didn't know it was that efficient! 3/4 gallon for 2 coats on a full kitchen? That's crazy good! For example yesterday I sprayed 2 small face frames and 64ft of nosing with 2 coats of primer and that took 1/2 gallon with my Airless handheld and a FFLP 210 tip. It sounds like you do roughly about the same size work that I do. What HVLP setup do you have?


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

jrbrogan1 said:


> Thanks Holland! I knew that HVLP was more efficient than Airless but I didn't know it was that efficient! 3/4 gallon for 2 coats on a full kitchen? That's crazy good! For example yesterday I sprayed 2 small face frames and 64ft of nosing with 2 coats of primer and that took 1/2 gallon with my Airless handheld and a FFLP 210 tip. It sounds like you do roughly about the same size work that I do. What HVLP setup do you have?


I have a Graco 9.5. I have the old and the new version. The new version has a better gun and cup system that allows you to paint upside down, and can be converted to gravity-fed, with an optional pressure pot (compressor).

to clarify, I used 3/4 gallon paint for x2 coats on front and back of doors (including the exterior of all the boxes), and the same amount primer (3/4 gallon). I gave a partial gallon to the customer at the end of the job.


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## jrbrogan1 (10 mo ago)

Holland said:


> I have a Graco 9.5. I have the old and the new version. The new version has a better gun and cup system that allows you to paint upside down, and can be converted to gravity-fed, with an optional pressure pot (compressor).
> 
> to clarify, I used 3/4 gallon paint for x2 coats on front and back of doors (including the exterior of all the boxes), and the same amount primer (3/4 gallon). I gave a partial gallon to the customer at the end of the job.


3/4 gallon is pretty good! Do you think you could push latex primer through the Graco 9.0 or would you go with Graco 9.5? SWilliams is offering an additional EDGE 2 gun with the 9.0/9.5, it would be nice to have one for paint and one for clear topcoats


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

jrbrogan1 said:


> 3/4 gallon is pretty good! Do you think you could push latex primer through the Graco 9.0 or would you go with Graco 9.5? SWilliams is offering an additional EDGE 2 gun with the 9.0/9.5, it would be nice to have one for paint and one for clear topcoats


The edge 2 plus guns are valued at somewhere around $500/each. !!

I don't think you'd regret having a turbine with more power, especially if you plan to use them fr waterborne. Learning about the Pressure Pot/Remote Cup might also influence your decision. I think it is only available on the 9.5 Pro Comp model.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

2 things:

1. I absolutely wouldn't base my decision on how little of paint I could use on a project. 

2. The transfer efficiency chart linked above is more than 5 years old and before the advent of fine-finish low-pressure tips. There is far less of a difference than those numbers now. Although much more independent studies have to be done in order to accurately quantify the improved transfer efficiency, I'm pretty sure every painter on this board knows how much we've been able to turn our pressure dial down now vs. the days before the advent of fflp tips. If I had to put a # on it, I'd say I've been able to reduce my pressure by an average of 500-600psi, which would equate to an overall improvement of approx. 25%.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> 2 things:
> 
> 1. I absolutely wouldn't base my decision on how little of paint I could use on a project.
> 
> 2. The transfer efficiency chart linked above is more than 5 years old and before the advent of fine-finish low-pressure tips. There is far less of a difference than those numbers now. Although much more independent studies have to be done in order to accurately quantify the improved transfer efficiency, I'm pretty sure every painter on this board knows how much we've been able to turn our pressure dial down now vs. the days before the advent of fflp tips. If I had to put a # on it, I'd say I've been able to reduce my pressure by an average of 500-600psi, which would equate to an overall improvement of approx. 25%.


"Transfer efficiency refers to how much paint spray covers a part, compared to how much material sprays past the part and is wasted."

It's worth noting how little paint is wasted using an HVLP. 
Even with an ff tip with an airless, and with the pressure turned down, I notice a lot more overspray, to say nothing of clean-up and set-up when you are cleaning 50 feet of hose (filled with paint).

Cleaning an airless hose for small jobs was the thing that really bothered me. And where does all that dirty water end up?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> “Transfer efficiency refers to how much paint spray covers a part, compared to how much material sprays past the part and is wasted."
> 
> It's worth noting how little paint is wasted using an HVLP. Even with an ff tip with an airless, and with the pressure turned down, I notice a lot more overspray, to say nothing of clean-up and set-up when you are cleaning 50 feet of hose (filled paint in it).
> 
> Cleaning the hose for small jobs was the thing that really bothered me. And where does all that dirty water end up?


I'm trying to make sure this member receives accurate data. That's all. The TE chart you linked to is from an article written before the advent of FFLP Tips. Using FFLP tips with an airless increases TE by a substantial margin. I thought it was noteworthy. Also worth mentioning is that TE Charts can vary substantially depending upon the source, (as well as the date).

Since we're here now, your assumptions of AAA pressures being over 2,000psi is inaccurate. Even the G-15 gun that both @MikeCalifornia and I had recommended for you with your ED 655 has a max rating of 1,500psi, (w/max air @100psi). My Kremlin EOS 10C18 AAA has a max fluid pressure of 870psi, (and max air @ 87psi), though I'm typically closer to 400-500psi fluid and 18-25 air). 

I do agree with you though that you'll use more paint with airless. There's no denying that.

I've had a turbine for about 17 years now and not once have I been able to use so little as 3/4 gallon doing 2 coats front & back on boxes and doors when painting a similar size cabinet set as you describe. While this is clearly indicative of high TE rates, it's also indicative of insufficient film build. I think if you were to take that same job you did with 3/4 gallon and re-spray it while confirming you're applying each coat @ the recommended WFT, you'd find it'd take at least 1.25 gallons minimum.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> I'm trying to make sure this member receives accurate data. That's all. The TE chart you linked to is from an article written before the advent of FFLP Tips. Using FFLP tips with an airless increases TE by a substantial margin. I thought it was noteworthy. Also worth mentioning is that TE Charts can vary substantially depending upon the source, (as well as the date).
> 
> Since we're here now, your assumptions of AAA pressures being over 2,000psi is inaccurate. Even the G-15 gun that both @MikeCalifornia and I had recommended for you with your ED 655 has a max rating of 1,500psi, (w/max air @100psi). My Kremlin EOS 10C18 AAA has a max fluid pressure of 870psi, (and max air @ 87psi), though I'm typically closer to 400-500psi fluid and 18-25 air).
> 
> ...


Edit

I stand corrected:
HVLP 10 psi at the gun
AAA 500-1500 psi
Airless 1500-3000 psi






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regarding wet film thickness on my job, I don’t think enough information given to question wet film thickness with any accuracy. I thinned at 6% with 50% overlap. I think wet was fine.

I like the ed655. I intend to use it for the rest of my career “as needed”, and if it breaks I’ll probably buy another. However, my shop is a dry shop, and I don’t like cleaning the hose, and not set up for that kind of waste water disposal. I like the idea of using an HVLP more for smaller jobs. It’s just my opinion, everybody has one.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Holland said:


> I have a Graco 9.5. I have the old and the new version. The new version has a better gun and cup system that allows you to paint upside down, and can be converted to gravity-fed, with an optional pressure pot (compressor).
> 
> to clarify, I used 3/4 gallon paint for x2 coats on front and back of doors (including the exterior of all the boxes), and the same amount primer (3/4 gallon). I gave a partial gallon to the customer at the end of the job.


Having used both an HVLP (with varying degrees of success) and my airless with FFLP tips, I settled on the airless. It just seemed to offer a more consistent means of achieving a good finish without having to thin the product so much as to affect the products integrity. For me, using less product as well as easier clean-up was the appeal of the HVLP, but the negatives of the system outweighed those positives - at least for me.

Though I will admit that 3/4 of a gallon of paint to do the number of doors and boxes you did certainly sounds impressive, the BIG question in my mind is how much product thickness was achieved and would it even come close to providing a durable and lasting finish on the cabinets that were done? Any of us who have done much cabinet work know that is equally important as obtaining a nice finish.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I definitely think there is a place for hvlp, especially on furniture and maybe the cabinet boxes as you could control mil thickness a little better than airless. Although for the doors, especially if you have any more than 15- 20 units, it's just so painfully slow. (compared to airless). But yes, great for a small jobs and +1 on the clean up. So much dirty water waste from cleaning the airless. I do hate that. As far as over spray vs. transfer efficiency, I find most of the overspray from the airless ends up on the floor, where as the hvlp is in the air as a fine mist. My 2 cents. Time for everyone to man up and go AAA. 😅


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

What’s a historic preservationist needing a spray setup for? Thought you guys used hog bristles or horsehair tied to a stick to apply coatings.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I am a cabinet builder and about 5 years ago I was tired of leaving all that money on the table because I did not offer painting. I bought the Sprayfine system and I use it with Benjamin-Moore's Advance (slightly thinned out). It was an easy learning curve. The only thing I had to "learn" was the proper amount of thinning required. 

Sprayfine sells a complete kit for $560.00. It has been reliable and it got good reviews at that time. I have no reservations about recommending it.









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I tried spraying with an airless, but it felt like a runaway freight train. Too much paint, too fast for me. I did not have the skill set for that system.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Hey Packard, that's great that your having success with Advance through the hvlp. I never could get it quite right through my accuspray. I am surprised though, if your doing mostly "new stock" that you don't try some of the 1k waterbourne poly's like envirolak and ml cambell. I imagine they would spray fantastic through your hvlp..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Packard said:


> I am a cabinet builder and about 5 years ago I was tired of leaving all that money on the table because I did not offer painting. I bought the Sprayfine system and I use it with Benjamin-Moore's Advance (slightly thinned out). It was an easy learning curve. The only thing I had to "learn" was the proper amount of thinning required.
> 
> Sprayfine sells a complete kit for $560.00. It has been reliable and it got good reviews at that time. I have no reservations about recommending it.
> 
> ...


I would love to hear more about your methods!!
sounds like you are working with an Acrylic Alkyd, correct? What are your thoughts about it? Pretty durable right?.

I love the idea of less overspray in the shop, and I actually like going slower.
Clean-up is where I’m sold on it.

There are multiple ways to adjust HVLP, (fluid and air) at the gun and at the turbine. The smaller the needle the finer the atomization, the bigger the needle the thicker the mil. I have been trying to find tune how to spray without thinning. It was my understanding that thinning waterborne weakens the film. any insights appreciated on what you do


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Holland said:


> I would love to hear more about your methods!!
> sounds like you are working with an Acrylic Alkyd, correct? What are your thoughts about it? Pretty durable right?.
> 
> I love the idea of less overspray in the shop, and I actually like going slower.
> ...


Holland - have you ever sprayed oil based enamels out of your HVLP? I found the thinning process was less detrimental to the product and the end result was usually great due to the longer leveling/dry time. And even with oil based products, cleanup was pretty simple - one of the best things about HVLPs IMO. Stains, oil or water-based, as well as clear coats also spray great out of a HVLP. 
The only product I could never be happy with was water based enamels - unless it was only packages of narrow trim. Doors and larger other flat surfaces - ugh.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Hey Packard, that's great that your having success with Advance through the hvlp. I never could get it quite right through my accuspray. I am surprised though, if your doing mostly "new stock" that you don't try some of the 1k waterbourne poly's like envirolak and ml cambell. I imagine they would spray fantastic through your hvlp..


Kevyn, if you have access to any of the Target Coatings line, they are also great! Their Pre Cat Acrylic Conversion Varnish was my go to for clear-coating cabinets for many years. But they likely have even better products by now.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

RH said:


> Holland - have you ever sprayed oil based enamels out of your HVLP? I found the thinning process was less detrimental to the product and the end result was usually great due to the longer leveling/dry time. And even with oil based products, cleanup was pretty simple - one of the best things about HVLPs IMO. Stains, oil or water-based, as well as clear coats also spray great out of a HVLP.
> The only product I could never be happy with was water based enamels - unless it was only packages of narrow trim. Doors and larger other flat surfaces - ugh.




yes I have sprayed oil enamel with a cup fed HVLP in the past, I could probably do it better now, but I am moving away from spraying solvent-based paints. Oil enamels are often period-correct when brushed anyways, and I enjoy that method more.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

RH said:


> Kevyn, if you have access to any of the Target Coatings line, they are also great! Their Pre Cat Acrylic Conversion Varnish was my go to for clear-coating cabinets for many years. But they likely have even better products by now.


 Man, I can't get anything over my way on "the rock" I just finished jumping through hoops to get some Envirolak sent to a distributor here. Spent a few weeks on email and phone calls and was so let down. I'll google Target to see what it's all about. Thanks.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Man, I can't get anything over my way on "the rock" I just finished jumping through hoops to get some Envirolak sent to a distributor here. Spent a few weeks on email and phone calls and was so let down. I'll google Target to see what it's all about. Thanks.


I know it can be purchased online - at least here in the states. I had some questions when I first started using it ten+ years ago and called them. The owner and developer of the line was the one who answered the phone and chatted with me for a good 10-15 minutes. I was impressed.


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