# Pre Primed New Door Preparation



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

We just finished a project painting cabinets and interior doors for a customer. The doors were purchased independently by the customer and they worked with a door company to purchase the doors and deliver them to our place to spray. The doors came pre-primed. Our estimate was to lightly sand and apply two coats of Pro Classic Oil. The customer is now saying he is unhappy with the appearance of the joints where two pieces of wood meet up and is withholding payment for the job.

My question for you is if a door comes pre-primed, would you expect yourself to have to sand down joints if there is any variance in the joint? Or, fill joints with bondo/wood filler if there is any gap between the joint?

I believe you will always see where two pieces of wood join together if the door isnt one solid piece and I would say 99% of people would say the joints are acceptable but either way I would appreciate your input. Also, keep in mind these pictures are taken by the homeowner from 1ft away.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

i run a piece of sandpaper over all the doors i paint not only i give it a scratch but to feel problems like this. the worst part about that seam is that you can only see half of it which is distracting, you have more of a case if you can see a consistent line. are all the joint lines that bad?


i just looked at the second pic, doesnt look that bad to me, i think the owner has issues with the doors


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

Vylum said:


> i run a piece of sandpaper over all the doors i paint not only i give it a scratch but to feel problems like this. the worst part about that seam is that you can only see half of it which is distracting, you have more of a case if you can see a consistent line. are all the joint lines that bad?
> 
> 
> i just looked at the second pic, doesnt look that bad to me, i think the owner has issues with the doors


Id say at random maybe half the doors have joints like that and they vary in size. I contacted the dealer and manufacturer to see what they recommend for finishing and multiple dealers said they are finish ready.. light sand and top coat is all thats needed.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Alltimate Painting said:


> We just finished a project painting cabinets and interior doors for a customer. The doors were purchased independently by the customer and they worked with a door company to purchase the doors and deliver them to our place to spray. The doors came pre-primed. Our estimate was to lightly sand and apply two coats of Pro Classic Oil. The customer is now saying he is unhappy with the appearance of the joints where two pieces of wood meet up and is withholding payment for the job.
> 
> My question for you is if a door comes pre-primed, would you expect yourself to have to sand down joints if there is any variance in the joint? Or, fill joints with bondo/wood filler if there is any gap between the joint?
> 
> ...


I always machine sand those doors and I have the exact same ones on this job right now. I am going to smear Elmer's carpenter filler across the joints and orbital the doors down with 220 grit.. I always prime this stuff so no harm to sand them flat and expose some mdf. Caulk too.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

F*ck that. I always put it in my contract, that painters sanding is NOT carpenter sanding. I would absolutely fight that. You were delivered substandard doors, and you did what you said you were going to do.

That being said, Im going to learn from your lesson to inspect all doors, and bring defects like that to someones attention and sign off on either an acceptance, send back, or extra charge to wood filler and reprime them all. 

Unless stated otherwise, a painters job is only to smooth sand the surface. The door company is at fault, but since you painted them, you may be liable. I'd at least try to get whoever ordered the doors to meet you half way.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

ridesarize said:


> I always machine sand those doors and I have the exact same ones on this job right now. I am going to smear Elmer's carpenter filler across the joints and orbital the doors down with 220 grit.. I always prime this stuff so no harm to sand them flat and expose some mdf. Caulk too.


So you would assume that despite it being a pre-primed door you would fill these joints if there is a void and machine sand everything down? It would be my expectation that all the joints fit tightly and if there are any raised edges the manufacturer sands their joints before they prime them.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

i wouldnt expect the painter to fill a bunch on every single new door either. if he wants a perfect door he should of spend more money on them. a light sand should be done every time


----------



## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

It's a door manufacturer problem not yours. If you had been told you would have to sand them then it would be on you but you were hired to paint them and that is exactly what you did. Maybe the owner should have spent more money and bought better doors.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Honestly, I anticipate that from the get go. I can't think of any new, wood, pre primed door that didn't require additional prep on site that I've ever dealt with. The intent is to make those doors look like the cabinet doors I assume? Nice, tight joints and such....i woulda scuffed, filled, sanded, primed and 2 coats of finish. And that would be been included in the estimate. Eventually they will crack out (probably) and that's job security down the road. Half the battle is asthetics....always make sure you are completely aware of the hos goals and these problems can be avoided. The tuition in this trade is more expensive than a traditional classroom unfortunately...sorry.:/


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Alltimate Painting said:


> Id say at random maybe half the doors have joints like that and they vary in size. I contacted the dealer and manufacturer to see what they recommend for finishing and multiple dealers said they are finish ready.. light sand and top coat is all thats needed.


They aren't painters. And they're (likely) already paid in full. Always,always,always reprime the preprimed...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> Honestly, I anticipate that from the get go. I can't think of any new, wood, pre primed door that didn't require additional prep on site that I've ever dealt with. The intent is to make those doors look like the cabinet doors I assume? Nice, tight joints and such....i woulda scuffed, filled, sanded, primed and 2 coats of finish. And that would be been included in the estimate. Eventually they will crack out (probably) and that's job security down the road. Half the battle is asthetics....always make sure you are completely aware of the hos goals and these problems can be avoided. The tuition in this trade is more expensive than a traditional classroom unfortunately...sorry.:/
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I understand what you are saying but I think that discussion should be had between the door manufacturer and the customer. If the customer was expecting perfectly jointed doors and viewed perfectly jointed doors at the dealers shop then they should have produced that. There should have been a guideline or agreement between those two in terms of what is an acceptable door. If the door company said a pre-primed door will need re-work on all the joints then I would have at least had the option to bid it for that. They said a light sand and painting is all thats needed which is all we did so we assumed the doors as delivered were what the customer was expecting.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> They aren't painters. And they're (likely) already paid in full. Always,always,always reprime the preprimed...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Whats another coat of primer going to do about the joints?


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> Honestly, I anticipate that from the get go. I can't think of any new, wood, pre primed door that didn't require additional prep on site that I've ever dealt with. The intent is to make those doors look like the cabinet doors I assume? Nice, tight joints and such....i woulda scuffed, filled, sanded, primed and 2 coats of finish. And that would be been included in the estimate. Eventually they will crack out (probably) and that's job security down the road. Half the battle is asthetics....always make sure you are completely aware of the hos goals and these problems can be avoided. The tuition in this trade is more expensive than a traditional classroom unfortunately...sorry.:/
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I agree with that 100%. It is not extra to prep and prime interior doors and millwork, it's what we do... we fix flaws and caulk too.. it is easy to level those joints out,. They are no deeper than a mil or two. That proves the Northwest painters represent quality finishes, lol.
Those seams won't crack out on those doors...

. . To woodco or Alltmate, I would orbital the whole door lightly, but not sanding down through factory primer with small exceptions on the high spots. 
Those doors are not cheap at all, but are majorly massed produced and there is considerable variances in the doors. Sometimes there are ridges or channels on the heal or edges, sometimes primer spits, boogers, rough edges that need sanding and priming. Primer makes everything better. BTW those doors are like mdf, they need more primer before a quality paint job.

The person who ordered the doors had nothing to do with those asthetic flaws. There are no (or VERY few ) doors that come perfectly prepped. I'll usually break out the lacquer putty too if there are shallow imperfections after sanding.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

youd fill every seam so they all disappear? that would take hours, it can be done but is it worth/necessary putting a bunch of mud on a brand new door? sounds like someones trying to put the burden of a cheap door on the painter. its worth noting i have no idea what you are charging


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

So what to do about this new construction, raw Fir exterior front door I just painted?
I was told to paint the door.. not to prime it though. Do I ask permission to prep it and prime it? No, if it needs it, I do it.

Am I to assume a custom Fir door is ready to paint with minimal time or prep because the clients also assumed that? Do I assume the "new" wood doesn't need sanding because, it's "new", the window glazing doesn't need to be removed from the glass because it's the door guy's fault, any splinters or dings don't get fixed because people shouldn't have damaged it, the wood grain opening up and causing hairline cracks is the builders fault for having all the delays, (not his fault).?

Well, no, I set nails, remove excess window glazing, prep it all, sand it all, clean and caulk it all, oil prime it all. then lacquer putty most of it, sand, clean and prime all with acrylic XIM Bonding Primer, then double top coat. I'm not calling the client or builder to get them to accept those shortcuts.

And I wasn't going to short cut it myself and have it fail, not worth it in the long run.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Vylum said:


> youd fill every seam so they all disappear? that would take hours, it can be done but is it worth/necessary putting a bunch of mud on a brand new door? sounds like someones trying to put the burden of a cheap door on the painter. its worth noting i have no idea what you are charging


Filling seams goes quick because those are super shallow, so much so that the primer itself being sanded would level them out. Regular filler is hardly necessary actually on those, but maybe lacquer putty like I said.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I work hourly for my boss. We often work hourly for clients, sometimes bid. They get an amazing product when I can give it, and they get an awesome Value for what paid.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

if you have all day sure make it look perfect but im saying it doesnt make sense to put a bunch of product on something that is brand new


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

lilpaintchic said:


> Half the battle is asthetics....always make sure you are completely aware of the hos goals and these problems can be avoided. The tuition in this trade is more expensive than a traditional classroom unfortunately...sorry.:/


This.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

homeowner should of bought decent doors if he was concerned


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

The homeowner certainly could have bought better made doors, but at some point they have to be made to understand that there is only so much prep that you should be expected to do based on your contract. If you were contracted to do the finish millwork as well as the painting then you are responsible to make the doors as perfect as possible. If the contract was for an industry standard paint finish, with no stipulation that you were responsible for the quality of the door construction, then prime, light sand, and topcoat is all you are responsible for. With the piss poor quality of doors being sold these days (full disclosure i worked as a high end door salesman for about a year and a half before i started in the paint business) i would be sure to find out what exactly the client desires. Yes you can do the extra work to make a cheap door look almost perfect but you aren't going to do it for free. That's the gist of what i am saying. And as already noted there is going to be some movement of that joint regardless of how well filled and sanded it is so there actually isn't supposed to be a perfectly smooth joint there. It is supposed to be there so the wood can move as the temp and humidity changes, so filling it and sanding it is long term a waste of time and energy. If the client doesn't want to see a joint there, they should buy another type of door material.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

PACman said:


> The homeowner certainly could have bought better made doors, but at some point they have to be made to understand that there is only so much prep that you should be expected to do based on your contract. If you were contracted to do the finish millwork as well as the painting then you are responsible to make the doors as perfect as possible. If the contract was for an industry standard paint finish, with no stipulation that you were responsible for the quality of the door construction, then prime, light sand, and topcoat is all you are responsible for. With the piss poor quality of doors being sold these days (full disclosure i worked as a high end door salesman for about a year and a half before i started in the paint business) i would be sure to find out what exactly the client desires. Yes you can do the extra work to make a cheap door look almost perfect but you aren't going to do it for free. That's the gist of what i am saying. And as already noted there is going to be some movement of that joint regardless of how well filled and sanded it is so there actually isn't supposed to be a perfectly smooth joint there. It is supposed to be there so the wood can move as the temp and humidity changes, so filling it and sanding it is long term a waste of time and energy. If the client doesn't want to see a joint there, they should buy another type of door material.


I agree.... Our contract specially states what we were going to produce based on painting a pre primed as is door. I suppose if you're working by the hour as another user stated then sure....make the door look perfect at all cost, you'll just make more so why not. In the world of producing bids/estimates based on a specific scope of work then we have to adhere to that scope of work or we wont make any money.


----------



## PhoenixFinishes (Sep 8, 2016)

*door stile woes*

I've tried wood bondo and lacquer putty, and nothing seems to prevent it. At least 2-3 doors in a midsize kitchen always seems to have a stile or rail that twists or shrinks causing a gap. 

I asked what the ultimate solution was for this and the door supplier showed me some MDF doors that are CNC milled and seamless, so this is what I'm encouraging my clients to use now. Less hassle and headache for everyone, though getting a glassy finish with MDF takes a lot of undercoater/primer. I'm all WB now, so I use BM's Super Spec Enamel Undercoater and it doesn't swell the MDF nearly as bad as anything else out there; sands great too. Then DE Aristoshield or PPG Breakthrough 250 over the top, bam! Rock solid.

I too always re-prime everything; cheap insurance. 

Also, my recommendation is to have at least 3 grades of finishing, and a through explanation of what each grade entails as far as prep and final appearance. Having visuals is optimal of course. Ask a door supplier for 3-5 paint grade shaker doors (14" square does the trick at $25-$35 a pop), and finish them all with different processes, products and levels of finish. This will save you SOOOO much frustration in the long run. Your clients can select the finish you want, sign off on the contract and then it's all smooth sailing from there. 

I don't guarantee assembled doors anymore, no matter what finish. I have several samples from jobs that were replaced showing the issues that arise either immediately or several years down the road.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Alltimate Painting said:


> I understand what you are saying but I think that discussion should be had between the door manufacturer and the customer. If the customer was expecting perfectly jointed doors and viewed perfectly jointed doors at the dealers shop then they should have produced that. There should have been a guideline or agreement between those two in terms of what is an acceptable door. If the door company said a pre-primed door will need re-work on all the joints then I would have at least had the option to bid it for that. They said a light sand and painting is all thats needed which is all we did so we assumed the doors as delivered were what the customer was expecting.


In your op you asked for opinions on this situation. I gave you mine based on my experiences. I stand by them because I've been in your shoes. Exactly once. Lesson learned. Feel free to revisit the lesson again in the future if you so desire, I'm just sayin that you can anticipate it, get paid for appropriately prepping them to meet a hos expectation (provided your clear on that expectation) and avoid headaches like this. The prep is easy and doesn't take much more effort. Repriming is a great way to a) fill small cracks/joints (put a couple coats on, use an undercoat like this one or oil depending on the factory primer)
And b) to ensure proper bond as some factory primers are harder to bond to.
There are other reasons but these two are enough for me...as was earlier stated, primer makes everything better...









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

I can see both sides of this coin and the debate can go on forever. Like someone mentioned, take this as a learning tool for future jobs. Keep those pictures on file and let your future clients know that the joints on new doors will typically look like this without any additional prep and if you would like the joints to be completely filled and leveled there is an upcharge. Win win situation approaching it in this manner.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

PACman said:


> The homeowner certainly could have bought better made doors, but at some point they have to be made to understand that there is only so much prep that you should be expected to do based on your contract. If you were contracted to do the finish millwork as well as the painting then you are responsible to make the doors as perfect as possible. If the contract was for an industry standard paint finish, with no stipulation that you were responsible for the quality of the door construction, then prime, light sand, and topcoat is all you are responsible for. With the piss poor quality of doors being sold these days (full disclosure i worked as a high end door salesman for about a year and a half before i started in the paint business) i would be sure to find out what exactly the client desires. Yes you can do the extra work to make a cheap door look almost perfect but you aren't going to do it for free. That's the gist of what i am saying. And as already noted there is going to be some movement of that joint regardless of how well filled and sanded it is so there actually isn't supposed to be a perfectly smooth joint there. It is supposed to be there so the wood can move as the temp and humidity changes, so filling it and sanding it is long term a waste of time and energy. If the client doesn't want to see a joint there, they should buy another type of door material.


I hear and understand your point, but disagree with the statement(s) at the end.
1 Not cheap doors, try buying a couple dozen. 
2 That style of interior door is not made to move freely at the rail and stile joints. (Panels are debatable, but I caulk them with without issue ever.
3. If a client or a painter decides to prep those, it is NOT a given that they will crack out and not a waste of time at all. I do this stuff everyday, and have painted that style of door many jobs over.
4 The door factory preps these joints, pretty close to good, but definately not perfect. They vary as well. 

I work for several companies over the course of a few years, am working for 3 companies at the moment technically (2 part time, if there's a gap in work at one I find work elsewhere) and they treat the prep the same.
I'm doing the same doors in a few days. I just checked them for the seams and they are better than what you pictured. Just a tiny minute out of flush, I will address each door while they are stacked on the wall. They get prepped, sanded, caulked before they get set up to spray to make it easier and production style.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

you just typed up everything we already went over


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Alltimate Painting said:


> I agree.... Our contract specially states what we were going to produce based on painting a pre primed as is door. I suppose if you're working by the hour as another user stated then sure....make the door look perfect at all cost, you'll just make more so why not. In the world of producing bids/estimates based on a specific scope of work then we have to adhere to that scope of work or we wont make any money.


I'm on your side and understand your point too. The prep wasn't discussed. So there was a misunderstanding on both sides... If i was told paint only, that's what I would have done., after I double checked that they were sure.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Vylum said:


> you just typed up everything we already went over


Oh gee, that never happens on forums. My bad.


----------



## Alltimate Painting (Mar 2, 2012)

ridesarize said:


> I'm on your side and understand your point too. The prep wasn't discussed. So there was a misunderstanding on both sides... If i was told paint only, that's what I would have done., after I double checked that they were sure.


Well it was discussed, we said we would give the door a light sand, dust removal and spray two coats of paint to an as-is door. The issue I had was I dont know what the homeowners expectations were as far as the build of the door. If the homeowner went to the dealers shop and viewed all perfectly jointed doors and the manufacturer stated all that is needed on these perfectly jointed doors is to give it a light sand and then top coat with paint then where is the confusion? Likewise, if the homeowner viewed doors where the seams were visible then they got what they paid for... how are we to know what their agreement was? 

I'd say it was up to the homeowner to review the doors at the lumber yard which they had a reasonable period of time to do so to see if the doors that were sold to him were what he expected. Regardless, It looks like this is just going to be another add on to an already lengthy contract for future customers...the pictures of the joints of a door could be helpful as well as another user stated.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

why does a painter have to make a bunch of arbitrary seams disappear on a brand new door? should i skim coat over the panels too so it looks extra smooth? gimmi a break


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Vylum said:


> why does a painter have to make a bunch of arbitrary seams disappear on a brand new door? should i skim coat over the panels too so it looks extra smooth? gimmi a break


That's interior millwork, if if shows on a camera picture, it's very noticeable in person. 
A little different than exterior work or painting walls.

Example - I have done pre-prime MDF Millwork where the Builder did not want us to sand the factory primer and then he told us to barely sand our primer but then complained and said our finish paint was all orange peely. I told him no that's the factory primer that we didn't sand down and that's our other primer that you wouldn't let us and down. You could see smoother stuff by nail holes that prove that the sanded primer was better.


----------



## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

not even sanding from the factory is nuts, having 10 plus patches on each side of a door is an extra cost. unlucky i guess


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Communication, communication, communication. To me the pics show a millwork issue, not so much a painting one. And the thing is, many people wouldn't have an issue with something like that whereas others... So it's important to know what their expectation are going to be.

I prefer to bid doors once I've seen them so issues like this can be discussed prior. But that's not always possible or practical. So, bid for the possible unknown and also communicate that to the customer. Usually turns out that in a group of doors some will need extra attention and others very little so it typically evens out. But at least that way there are no surprises and rarely a concerned HO.


----------



## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> That's interior millwork, if if shows on a camera picture, it's very noticeable in person.
> A little different than exterior work or painting walls.
> 
> Example - I have done pre-prime MDF Millwork where the Builder did not want us to sand the factory primer and then he told us to barely sand our primer but then complained and said our finish paint was all orange peely. I told him no that's the factory primer that we didn't sand down and that's our other primer that you wouldn't let us and down. You could see smoother stuff by nail holes that prove that the sanded primer was better.




Most builders know very little about the painting process. Sounds like that one is no exception.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

slinger58 said:


> Most builders know very little about the painting process. Sounds like that one is no exception.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally.However this builder new quite a bit, but his eyes werre 10 inches from the work! Lol. I had no orange peel.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Vylum said:


> youd fill every seam so they all disappear? that would take hours, it can be done but is it worth/necessary putting a bunch of mud on a brand new door? sounds like someones trying to put the burden of a cheap door on the painter. its worth noting i have no idea what you are charging


HOURS? 

I got 1:30 per door, taking my time. When doing 4 doors in a row I got 5 minutes and some change

Thought you were a shredder


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I like and use the Elmers filler too. Although not a fan of the gray stuff - I still prefer the smoother, older, tan colored formula (interior only).


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

RH said:


> I like and use the Elmers filler too. Although not a fan of the gray stuff - I still prefer the smoother, older, tan colored formula (interior only).


Me too, but I mix it with Crawford's to get the best of both worlds. And my favorite knife is a 1". 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

RH said:


> I like and use the Elmers filler too. Although not a fan of the gray stuff - I still prefer the smoother, older, tan colored formula (interior only).


That's what I use the orange, smoother old school stuff.


----------



## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

Those doors are not very good. 

Customer provided materials finished per manufacturer specs. Not your fault they bought crappy doors.

That said, I might have given them a look over before painting and pointed out the issues. Usually, you're on the hook after putting finish on. Most every material warranty has that clause.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I won't spam by posting another video now, but my sanding video came out pretty good I think. I mean it's simple, but straight forward, skilled tradesman action, without talking. The festool ets ec with 220 did damn good on these doors.
The wood filler at the seams sanded out quickly. 
2 doors, all sides machine and hand sanded, 5 and a quarter minutes. Shows the results of the prepped seams up close. 

You can find it on my channel, or the filler video has a link


----------



## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

ridesarize said:


> I won't spam by posting another video now, but my sanding video came out pretty good I think. I mean it's simple, but straight forward, skilled tradesman action, without talking. The festool ets ec with 220 did damn good on these doors.
> The wood filler at the seams sanded out quickly.
> 2 doors, all sides machine and hand sanded, 5 and a quarter minutes. Shows the results of the prepped seams up close.
> 
> You can find it on my channel, or the filler video has a link


I haven't used it before, and I was wondering about the typical drying time of the Elmer's filler. By the way, I just watched all of your videos you've posted on youtube. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SemiproJohn said:


> I haven't used it before, and I was wondering about the typical drying time of the Elmer's filler. By the way, I just watched all of your videos you've posted on youtube. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!


Sort of depends on depth of application. I've had relatively shallow amounts dry to sandability in a few hours. Heavier amounts will likely require an overnight cure.


----------



## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

:vs_cool:


SemiproJohn said:


> I haven't used it before, and I was wondering about the typical drying time of the Elmer's filler. By the way, I just watched all of your videos you've posted on youtube. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!


Shallow fills dry relatively quick. Like a skim coat will dry in 30 minutes or less. Finish nail hole filler, about an hour. Screw holes...4 -5 hrs I think.

Thank you very much for the compliment, that means a lot coming from other painters, especially from Paint Talk. I know the videos aren't all that. The only thing I have going for me I think, is that I can apply paint and I wanted to represent the professional painters out here.


----------

