# Advance Sags and Drips



## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Wondering if anyone else has this problem with Advance. First coat looks great, but the second coat often has several sags and/or drips. I have started applying a thinner second coat, which is helping a bit.

Any suggestions to why this is happening and how to rectify?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

You are sanding in between coats?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Pete the Painter said:


> Wondering if anyone else has this problem with Advance. First coat looks great, but the second coat often has several sags and/or drips. I have started applying a thinner second coat, which is helping a bit.
> 
> Any suggestions to why this is happening and how to rectify?


I have never used Advance, but the generic, fits-all reasons for sags is too heavy a coat and/or too long a dry time. But most often it is laying it on too thick.

Since this is happening on the second coat, the first coat is "held-in-place" by . . . well, let's call it the coefficient of friction. And the second coat, even on satin, is "slipping" due to the lesser friction than on primer.

As IPP says, sand the first coat and I would also apply a thinner 2nd coat. 

These modern paints don't like to be brushed out but do love to sag and drip. In the old days, we could just brush it out to prevent sags and drips. Nowadays, the learning curve is figuring out the optimum thickness of application.

IMO


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Pete the Painter said:


> Wondering if anyone else has this problem with Advance. First coat looks great, but the second coat often has several sags and/or drips. I have started applying a thinner second coat, which is helping a bit.
> 
> Any suggestions to why this is happening and how to rectify?



Pete, how long between coats? What was heat at approx? Humidity? How's the air flow? Spray or brush?

Advance can require a lot of time between coats, depending upon factors above.


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## VOC breath (Sep 4, 2011)

Advance...Don't get me started. I grew up over decades with Impervo and developed the habit of brushing and brushing and brushing, and always got a good result. Impervo fed that habit. That doesn't work AT ALL with Advance. I just coated a pocket door with Advance FIVE TIMES - sanding between coats; waiting several days; thin, thin coats with minimal brushing. Complete failure. Ended up sanding the final coat and going over it with two coats of Impervo. Not sure when I'll go back to Advance (or when I'll have the time for the learning curve.) Guys tell me spraying Advance is the only way to get results.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

It just takes a little getting used to, not a difficult learning curve. You get used to it very fast (how much paint to use with your brush or roller)

It's been the paint we use 90% of the time since it came out.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Oh much difference in application technique is there between Advance and Waterborne Satin Impervo? I did use that in my office here and I sorta got in down after one flat hollow core door. 

And if Advance is similar to Waterborne S I , brush choice is also important.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Advance is very intolerant to inconsistencies in the wet film thickness. It flows out so well that slight differences application thickness can cause a run/sag. Instead of flowing together and creating a smooth film, a thin spot in film will cause it to flow over that spot and make a sag. 

The real key is to apply a very even film with no light or heavy spots. Applying the whole coat thinner can help indirectly by making it easier to achieve consistency, but a thinner coat is not going to end up a smooth as a full 3-4 mil coat. 

For me the trick is applying with a mini microfiber roller and tipping it off. Using the roller instead of a brush to lay out the initial film makes it easier to spread it evenly.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I paint paint said:


> You are sanding in between coats?


I do not, but have considered trying. But, not sure if it is woth the extra effort.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Just have to figure out when to go back into it and lay it off one final time. It depends on environmental conditions, usually 10-15 minutes. Just something you have to figure out on your own.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Pete, how long between coats? What was heat at approx? Humidity? How's the air flow? Spray or brush?
> 
> Advance can require a lot of time between coats, depending upon factors above.


I always wait overnight between coats. Not sure about the rest. I have been using the stuff for about two years, and I learned very quickly to not put it on thick for the second coat. I have considered sanding between coats, but I started a thread about 1 1/2 years ago to see if this is really necessary, and the concensus was no.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

daArch said:


> Oh much difference in application technique is there between Advance and Waterborne Satin Impervo? I did use that in my office here and I sorta got in down after one flat hollow core door.
> 
> And if Advance is similar to Waterborne S I , brush choice is also important.


I have tried many brushes with it. I use Corono's tynex nylon brushes, which I think is the best brush for it. Anybody use another brush that they think works well.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Advance is very intolerant to inconsistencies in the wet film thickness. It flows out so well that slight differences application thickness can cause a run/sag. Instead of flowing together and creating a smooth film, a thin spot in film will cause it to flow over that spot and make a sag.
> 
> The real key is to apply a very even film with no light or heavy spots. Applying the whole coat thinner can help indirectly by making it easier to achieve consistency, but a thinner coat is not going to end up a smooth as a full 3-4 mil coat.
> 
> For me the trick is applying with a mini microfiber roller and tipping it off. Using the roller instead of a brush to lay out the initial film makes it easier to spread it evenly.


I use rollers for doors with great results. I will start trying with baseboars. But, still does not solve the issue with window and door frames that are not flat.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> I always wait overnight between coats. Not sure about the rest. I have been using the stuff for about two years, and I learned very quickly to not put it on thick for the second coat. I have considered sanding between coats, but I started a thread about 1 1/2 years ago to see if this is really necessary, and the concensus was no.


Given the problems you seem to be having, maybe you should consider it regardless of the consensus? I always recommend sanding between coats for a high quality finish with the Advance, personally.

I'm curious what colors you're using with it; as mentioned before, Advanced can have an extended dry time, which can cause sags, and doing it in darker colors makes it more glossy (and have less friction, to tie into daArch's point) and dry slower.

Good luck!


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

straight_lines said:


> Just have to figure out when to go back into it and lay it off one final time. It depends on environmental conditions, usually 10-15 minutes. Just something you have to figure out on your own.


^Here is the learning curve.^ For so many of today's paints, you can't even wait 2 or 3 minutes for final lay off. Is it hot, sunny, windy? If so, put it on. Lay it off. Move on.

If it is common for Advance to need one final lay off, a full 15 minutes after you've moved on, it's gonna take some getting used to and a strong reminder in between uses.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I never have gotten into the Advance habit. All the talk about a high learning curve scared me off. At my age, I don't have the luxury of time or patience to figure out a "tempermental" product. 

Been using a lot of Kelly Moore's Dura-Poxi lately. Great stuff!!!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I paint paint said:


> ^Here is the learning curve.^ For so many of today's paints, you can't even wait 2 or 3 minutes for final lay off. Is it hot, sunny, windy? If so, put it on. Lay it off. Move on.
> 
> If it is common for Advance to need one final lay off, a full 15 minutes after you've moved on, it's gonna take some getting used to and a strong reminder in between uses.


In hard corners yes. Even after using it for some time you still have to go back and check for sags or runs and lay it off. I can brush out something like crown without laying it off but once except for corners.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

I have never used Advance, and reading these responses is making me less apt to try it. What I don't understand is why even use it at all? Just use Aura. Problem solved.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Carl said:


> I have never used Advance, and reading these responses is making me less apt to try it. What I don't understand is why even use it at all? Just use Aura. Problem solved.


It looks and feels like oil.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Woodford said:


> Given the problems you seem to be having, maybe you should consider it regardless of the consensus? I always recommend sanding between coats for a high quality finish with the Advance, personally.
> 
> I'm curious what colors you're using with it; as mentioned before, Advanced can have an extended dry time, which can cause sags, and doing it in darker colors makes it more glossy (and have less friction, to tie into daArch's point) and dry slower.
> 
> Good luck!


I almost always use off the shelf white, I have used Dove White a couple of times. And a couple of other times other off whites. Usually satin, sometimes semi, never gloss. I am not talking about a ton of sags and drips. Enough to be annoying-especially since I get almost none on first coats.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Carl said:


> I have never used Advance, and reading these responses is making me less apt to try it. What I don't understand is why even use it at all? Just use Aura. Problem solved.


If you start with a smooth surface, e.g. not painting something such as a door that has roller stipple on it., you can get a hard, smooth surface that has barely any visible brush marks on it. I love the results. However, I am not using it as much for repaints on trim that the advantage of its leveling properties will not do any good. No point of using it on trim that has thick brush marks and/or roller stipple.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Many clients want the look of Satin Impervo, but either can't live with the smell or the VOC's if the home is being certified to one various "green" standards.. For these types of clients Advance is an excellent choice.

Jmayspaint is spot on about applying an even film thickness. I like using a Mohair roller to apply any even film thickness and then tip it off. Also try to minimize your back brushing. As you continue to brush Advance it won't flow out very well because the open time is pretty short.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

One thing I have been wondering about Advance and other hybrid products is how repaints should be handled. For instance, does it need to be primed like oil if it is to be coated with an acrylic trim paint to avoid adhesion problems. Or is sanding sufficient.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I've always played it safe and primed. A light scuff sand followed by a quick rub down with deglosser should work well, but it really depends on the condition of the surface.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> I've always played it safe and primed. A light scuff sand followed by a quick rub down with deglosser should work well, but it really depends on the condition of the surface.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you talking about putting Advance over oil? I agree it needs primed in that case, but does Advance needed to be primed over to apply a none hybrid product on top of it?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I have a strong suspicion it would be just fine over oil as long as you scuffed it up a bit, but everyone always plays it safe and primes. Can't say I blame them.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

We deal with a lot of older homes that have existing oil based trim. We generally sand like hell and apply the Advance directly to the surface. There is a learning curve but it is well worth learning the product because the results are great. We like it for kitchen cabinets and all manner of trim. Lays down real nice. Just apply in thin coats.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Pete the Painter said:


> I have tried many brushes with it. I use Corono's tynex nylon brushes, which I think is the best brush for it. Anybody use another brush that they think works well.


Try Corona's 100% chinex. I've had several painter customers tell me that a chinex brush makes a big difference.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

VOC breath said:


> Advance...Don't get me started. I grew up over decades with Impervo and developed the habit of brushing and brushing and brushing, and always got a good result. Impervo fed that habit. That doesn't work AT ALL with Advance. I just coated a pocket door with Advance FIVE TIMES - sanding between coats; waiting several days; thin, thin coats with minimal brushing. Complete failure. Ended up sanding the final coat and going over it with two coats of Impervo. Not sure when I'll go back to Advance (or when I'll have the time for the learning curve.) Guys tell me spraying Advance is the only way to get results.


It's interesting to me that the whole reason behind the dual dispersion paints was to give a longer open time than traditional acrylics. This is supposed to make them much more brushable, similar to alkyds. But I have found that they are very temperamental in that the brushability is very dependent on temperature, humidity, gloss level of previous coat, etc.

They are supposed to bridge the brushabilty gap between products like Cabinet coat and Cali. ultraplate, which you just have to lay on and hope they don't sag. If you get the thickness right, they won't sag and will lay out to a nice, almost sprayed on look. Advance is supposed to be much more brushable, but from my experience with customer feedback it sometimes has a very small performance window. It is difficult to get the correct thickness to get a smooth finish and have it not sag. And it can sometimes not be as brush friendly as it was intended.

I have stopped carrying Cali's Nextech clone of Advance for this very reason. The Ultraplate is actually much easier to use, but you have to learn not to over brush it or brush back into it very much. Unfortunately, there ain't no more Impervo in Ohio, so painter's here are struggling with re-learning their brush technique.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not sure the aim for Advance was ever for it to have a long time frame where you can brush it after it's on the product; I think moreso it was for it to look sprayed when you brush it and to level well, which imo it does handily. Its reaction to being brushed wrong is terrible; but if you just leave it alone and let it do its thing, it comes out gorgeous. There's definitely trade-offs with the Advance, and there's plenty of situations where I wouldn't want to use it, but once you get over the learning curve (which isn't terribly bad in the first place, it's just different) it's great for the right application.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Try Corona's 100% chinex. I've had several painter customers tell me that a chinex brush makes a big difference.


I have used the Corono Chinex and liked the results, but I think the softer tynex nylon brushes give a better finish.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> I'm not sure the aim for Advance was ever for it to have a long time frame where you can brush it after it's on the product; I think moreso it was for it to look sprayed when you brush it and to level well, which imo it does handily. Its reaction to being brushed wrong is terrible; but if you just leave it alone and let it do its thing, it comes out gorgeous. There's definitely trade-offs with the Advance, and there's plenty of situations where I wouldn't want to use it, but once you get over the learning curve (which isn't terribly bad in the first place, it's just different) it's great for the right application.


I was going by what my BM rep told me. They were trying to make a water reducible that brushed like oil Impervo. I couldn't sell the water based Impervo here because the painters hated the way it brushed. BM went the dual dispersion route to get an advanced water based product on the market that was more brushable than W/R Impervo. Myself, I think Advance is one of the better W/R paints as far as brushing goes, but I am only judging it against other W/R products. Against alkyds it still leaves much to be desired.

keep in mind I am in Ohio where the only alkyds you can get are in quarts. In states where oil Impervo is still available, if I were a painter or selling BM, I wouldn't go the Advance route if I didn't have too.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

People don't like oil paints around here (in general). I stocked both for a bit and had a much easier time selling the Advance, even with the pros. It's such a small and easy learning curve- some people use it once and get turned off by it, but it's such a simple product once you've done it once or twice. It's painting for lazy people, you just put it on and watch it make you look like a pro.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

The whole learning curve issue comes up every time a new technology is brought to any process. When Aura came out, I remember all sorts of painters whining and complaining about how hard it was to brush out and don't even mention rolling.

Older guys were saying it was like brushing on butter, etc. If you roll and happen to go back into paint that's been on for more than 10 seconds it crushes it, etc.

Over time, guys have either adapted or chosen not to use it.

I'm interested in using Advance at some point, but as with most things I'll probably have to find a situation where if I need something done around my own house that'll have to be where it happens.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Try Corona's 100% chinex. I've had several painter customers tell me that a chinex brush makes a big difference.



The Corona rep told me BM did a test and the Vegas brush worked the best with Advance. I find almost any brush works well.
I think the learning curve issue is way over blown.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PRC said:


> One thing I have been wondering about Advance and other hybrid products is how repaints should be handled. For instance, does it need to be primed like oil if it is to be coated with an acrylic trim paint to avoid adhesion problems. Or is sanding sufficient.



You're talking about painting over Advance yes? I would presume scuff sand and paint. Depending on sheen. High gloss I would scuff and liquid sand at a minimum. Maybe even prime. That stuff is tough. 
I'm back at a school we did some handrails in high gloss advance a couple / few years ago and they still look like new!


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## KEEGS (Nov 26, 2009)

We have had fantastic results with Advance. When it first came out it was difficult to work with. BM has it dialed in now. Pretty amazing product. We spray kitchens with it quite a bit... But we also brush as well. Once past the learning curve its definitely a solid product.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Proalliance coatings said:


> I was going by what my BM rep told me. They were trying to make a water reducible that brushed like oil Impervo. I couldn't sell the water based Impervo here because the painters hated the way it brushed. BM went the dual dispersion route to get an advanced water based product on the market that was more brushable than W/R Impervo. Myself, I think Advance is one of the better W/R paints as far as brushing goes, but I am only judging it against other W/R products. Against alkyds it still leaves much to be desired.
> 
> keep in mind I am in Ohio where the only alkyds you can get are in quarts. In states where oil Impervo is still available, if I were a painter or selling BM, I wouldn't go the Advance route if I didn't have too.


Alkyd Satin Impervo is still available here in gallons, but the price is beyond belief (near $70.00/gallon). I asked the BM dealer if they were _trying_ to price themselves out of the market and he said yeah they sort of were, they're trying to steer everyone to the Advance. Just wondering if that's a BM strategy or my dealer's idea.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Pete the Painter said:


> I use rollers for doors with great results. I will start trying with baseboars. But, still does not solve the issue with window and door frames that are not flat.



Actually it can, and does for me. I apply with a roller on most any surface. It doesn't necessarily have to be flat. All kinds of trim and moldings can be rolled and back brushed. 

This is an example of how I like to use a roller for contoured trim. 
http://youtu.be/5zC4BR4MkZs

Even on something like this elaborate crown molding, I find the roller lays out the initial film easier and thicker, than a brush alone. 

Baseboards are a snap with the roller, 
http://youtu.be/v1QFB4h3h3k


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Actually it can, and does for me. I apply with a roller on most any surface. It doesn't necessarily have to be flat. All kinds of trim and moldings can be rolled and back brushed.
> 
> This is an example of how I like to use a roller for contoured trim.
> http://youtu.be/5zC4BR4MkZs
> ...


I like the video. I am assuming that you loaded the brush sparingly when you cut the wall and ceiling. I am going to try this next time I paint with advance.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Shoot I could have had that whole room sprayed out in the time it took to do 4'! 
Just kidding. Thanks for posting the video

I'll have to look into the Purdy micro fiber rollers. Just used the whizz 3/8" microfiber with good results.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

To me, Advance is a great product for most door, millwork and cabinet applications. It levels like a dream while brushing. It can create a pearl smooth, glass like factory finish while spraying. Water clean-up, low oder, faster drying, touches-up better. My guys like it way better. It's a true money making miracle product. 

Based on my experience the whole long-cure-time issue doesn't exist if you are in a low humidity environment with good air exchange. Proper Environmental conditions are critical for success and should be seriously considered.


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## toomuch (Jan 28, 2010)

Jmayspaint said:


> Actually it can, and does for me. I apply with a roller on most any surface. It doesn't necessarily have to be flat. All kinds of trim and moldings can be rolled and back brushed.
> 
> This is an example of how I like to use a roller for contoured trim.
> http://youtu.be/5zC4BR4MkZs
> ...


For flat surfaces do you ever use the roller on your final pass as opposed to a brush? If so, how are the results relative to if you were to have used a brush.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

toomuch said:


> For flat surfaces do you ever use the roller on your final pass as opposed to a brush? If so, how are the results relative to if you were to have used a brush.



I find it depends on the sheen and roller. We often leave the roller stipple in satin with a mohair , flocked foam, velour or other fine finish nap. I'm not as happy with the semi gloss results. It shows more stipple. Can't speak to high gloss as rarely use it.


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## Propainting09 (Aug 2, 2015)

Advance in my opinion is terrible. It sags like crazy and the coverage is not good. BM satin impervo is a much better product.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

I love working with advance it reacts very well with water making the paint last alot longer than anything product out there. You need to work very fast with this stuff. Roll out a small like 6 inch section with the wiz roller and lay it off and leave it alone. Less is more with this stuff. I find that advance may take one more coat then anything else. However you can work faster because it's a thin product that don't need alot of brushing. Never re coat anything the same day let it sit overnight. 

At first when advance came out I hated it but once you learn how to work with this stuff you realize how awsome it is. 

It's also great for spraying as well. I prefer spraying advance leaves a wicked smooth finish.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Did anyone mention a fan? I've only used Advance on doors, so using a fan was manageable. I could see larger areas being a problem


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Not advance. Pro industrial. Probably similar formulation. You can't 2 coat these paints in the same day. It feels dry. But it reactivates. Curtains here. A lack of communication on my part. Mu help for the day second coated doors I'd primed earlier that same day. It feels dry but it isn't and it curtains terrible.



The next day and its fine to recoat. No problems at all with the top coat.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Here


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

What is that, a murder scene?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

'dont do the unit with the X in tape on the door. I just hit that. If u hit it again today it will curtain"



I guess I shoulda made a bigger X?

I dunno.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Pete the Painter said:


> Wondering if anyone else has this problem with Advance. First coat looks great, but the second coat often has several sags and/or drips. I have started applying a thinner second coat, which is helping a bit.
> 
> Any suggestions to why this is happening and how to rectify?


We spray the first coat thin. The second slightly more material. You can't spray Advance at the same rate as a regular latex. If you do you will have runs everywhere. 
It took us about 4 jobs before we had Advance dialed in. Not the easiest product to spray but one of the nicest finishes and extremely durable.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Zoomer said:


> We spray the first coat thin. The second slightly more material. You can't spray Advance at the same rate as a regular latex. If you do you will have runs everywhere.
> It took us about 4 jobs before we had Advance dialed in. Not the easiest product to spray but one of the nicest finishes and extremely durable.


Before and after with Advance semi gloss


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

CApainter said:


> What is that, a murder scene?


Advance failure on a project. Ben moore reimbursed us to fix this after we sprayed Advance and it failed.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Ugh..


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Zoomer said:


> Advance failure on a project. Ben moore reimbursed us to fix this after we sprayed Advance and it failed.



Interesting. Any idea what happened? Bad batch or something?


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Maybe it's just me, but I swear most of the issues that have been mentioned about Advance (which I've never used) could be about ProClassic (water based) that I use.

It too has a learning curve. When spraying, it's best to apply a thin first coat, then a slightly thicker second coat. When brushing, you have to give it some time after applying (15-20 minutes) to lay it off. Drips and sags are a reality until you have some experience with it.

Any others agree or is it just a fig newton of my amalgamation?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

SemiproJohn said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I swear most of the issues that have been mentioned about Advance (which I've never used) could be about ProClassic (water based) that I use.
> 
> It too has a learning curve. When spraying, it's best to apply a thin first coat, then a slightly thicker second coat. When brushing, you have to give it some time after applying (15-20 minutes) to lay it off. Drips and sags are a reality until you have some experience with it.
> 
> Any others agree or is it just a fig newton of my amalgamation?


Same here with the PC. It seems if a paint has a learning curve (Aura, Advance, PC, FPoE) some people freak out. Oh well.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Interesting. Any idea what happened? Bad batch or something?


Bad batch.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

It is when you have worked through the issues that you can master the product without fail.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Zoomer said:


> Bad batch.


So how many thousands of gallons of paint do you think they recalled. Or did they? 

Where's Drake?


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> Interesting. Any idea what happened? Bad batch or something?


Very bad batch.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Ben moore recalled the entire batch.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

CApainter said:


> So how many thousands of gallons of paint do you think they recalled. Or did they?
> 
> Where's Drake?


Someone summon me?

Haven't heard anything about it; probably didn't come out of my distribution center, haven't ever seen anything like that. Due to in-house resins and such quality control issues are very rare with BM (compared to other manufacturer's I've worked with, at least). Nasty looking failure, though. Surprised it didn't look odd in the can.

But yah, Advance is unfortunately a product with a helluva learning curve. Get used to it and it makes a lovely finish; whether it's worth the time investment and money investment is something everyone's gotta figure for themselves.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Someone summon me?
> 
> Haven't heard anything about it; probably didn't come out of my distribution center, haven't ever seen anything like that. Due to in-house resins and such quality control issues are very rare with BM (compared to other manufacturer's I've worked with, at least). Nasty looking failure, though. Surprised it didn't look odd in the can.
> 
> But yah, Advance is unfortunately a product with a helluva learning curve. Get used to it and it makes a lovely finish; whether it's worth the time investment and money investment is something everyone's gotta figure for themselves.


I would second this statement. And just as a warning to you painters, you are probably going to see many more product issues in the coming years as more and more paint brands are sourcing resins and pigments from China. Some of the resin manufacturers in China are able to make custom resins for 1/4 the cost of North American manufacturers. BM's ability and willingness to continue making their resins themselves will be a big factor in their ability to maintain quality control. It all comes down to how badly a company wants to maintain their quality over how cheaply they want to make their product.

There have already been issues with paint manufacturers in regards to inconsistent Imported resins. In the very near future there will be a big separation in overall quality between the low end brands and the premium brands.


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## Casey 123 (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm using it on a big job now, lots of old wainscoting, triple sash windows, plaster crown, casing, picture framing. .judges paneling,......1836. It's working well. I use penetrol....crucial! When brushing. I use the stiff wooster 3 1/8 shasta. Spraying it's easy, brush runs and sags quick, it levels off great. It sets up quick so always check your work.


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## Casey 123 (Aug 4, 2015)

Edit. Flotrol


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Casey 123 said:


> I'm using it on a big job now, lots of old wainscoting, triple sash windows, plaster crown, casing, picture framing. .judges paneling,......1836. It's working well. I use penetrol....crucial! When brushing. I use the stiff wooster 3 1/8 shasta. Spraying it's easy, brush runs and sags quick, it levels off great. It sets up quick so always check your work.





Casey 123 said:


> Edit. Flotrol


I think the only extender BM recommends for Advance is water.


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## Casey 123 (Aug 4, 2015)

Recommended or not, after 30 gallons + brushing it, I love it. Flotrol was the game changer for me. I pushed hard to keep the job in oil, but customer wanted waterborne.


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## Casey 123 (Aug 4, 2015)

Bm has always been a pia regarding additives


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Casey 123 said:


> Recommended or not, after 30 gallons + brushing it, I love it. Flotrol was the game changer for me. I pushed hard to keep the job in oil, but customer wanted waterborne.


Interesting. No problems with dry time, cure time or adhesion?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Casey 123 said:


> Bm has always been a pia regarding additives


Interesting side note on additives. Every paint companies' "warrantee" is voided if any additives are used. The first thing they will test for on major product claims is to see if any additives were added to their paint.

Unless of course it is their own additive.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

PACman said:


> Interesting side note on additives. Every paint companies' "warrantee" is voided if any additives are used. The first thing they will test for on major product claims is to see if any additives were added to their paint.
> 
> Unless of course it is their own additive.


I like that the regal and aura tds says up to 8 oz. Extender or water


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PRC said:


> I like that the regal and aura tds says up to 8 oz. Extender or water


Yup. Their extender. And holy water.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Being able to just thin with water on several of the BM products is nice; the only thing I can say regarding their extender vs. generic floetrol type stuff is that the BM extender actually uses the same in-house ingredients that their paints use, which is great for compatibility. They know _exactly_ how their products interact with their own ingredients, which means they can give good recommendations on how much to use before you start having problems, among other things.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Being able to just thin with water on several of the BM products is nice; the only thing I can say regarding their extender vs. generic floetrol type stuff is that the BM extender actually uses the same in-house ingredients that their paints use, which is great for compatibility. They know _exactly_ how their products interact with their own ingredients, which means they can give good recommendations on how much to use before you start having problems, among other things.


And, it's been blessed by the pope!


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> And, it's been blessed by the pope!


Starting to think maybe I should take Communion before using BM products.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

slinger58 said:


> Starting to think maybe I should take Communion before using BM products.


"Blood of Christ, sacrificed for one coat red paints."

Too much?


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm not religious, so now I'm not sure what to do. Can I still use BM?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm not religious, so now I'm not sure what to do. Can I still use BM?


Shhh, just drink the Kool-Aid.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm not religious, so now I'm not sure what to do. Can I still use BM?


Sure you can! Just repent!


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> Sure you can! Just repent!


You mean "repaint".


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Not another one of these threads. For the love of all that's holy don't let @daArch see it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DrakeB said:


> Not another one of these threads. For the love of all that's holy don't let @daArch see it.


Wha??? I saw my name. Guess I gotta get re-interested in this thread and add my worldly opinion.

Now when you guys talk about religious BM, I assume you all ain't seeing God Jimi & Janis while having a BOWEL MOVEMENT are ya ?

I've done that after being on lots of oxy for a few weeks, kinda like giving birth. 

:jester:


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

This is interesting to me. I work with advance all the time. BM has tuned this product up very nicely in my opinion. I didn't like using flotrol. It reacts very well to water if you ask me. Advance really does go alot further than any other paint that I know of on the market.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

PACman said:


> And, it's been blessed by the pope!


The next marketing campaign!?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm not religious, so now I'm not sure what to do. Can I still use BM?


Yes, but you will need to start worshipping unicorns.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Seth The Painter said:


> This is interesting to me. I work with advance all the time. BM has tuned this product up very nicely in my opinion. I didn't like using flotrol. It reacts very well to water if you ask me. Advance really does go alot further than any other paint that I know of on the market.



You are not supposed to add any extender to advance, not even BM extender. Just water.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> I think the only extender BM recommends for Advance is water.





Casey 123 said:


> Recommended or not, after 30 gallons + brushing it, I love it. Flotrol was the game changer for me. I pushed hard to keep the job in oil, but customer wanted waterborne.





slinger58 said:


> Interesting. No problems with dry time, cure time or adhesion?





Damon T said:


> You are not supposed to add any extender to advance, not even BM extender. Just water.


Looking for a ruling here, guys. BM dealers? BM reps? Somebody?

Anybody?


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

daArch said:


> I've done that after being on lots of oxy for a few weeks, kinda like giving birth.
> 
> :jester:


So you were in pain. You took oxy to relieve pain. It resulted in intense pain similar to child-birth.

Feel free to cut out the pharmacist next time you are in pain. Does your neck hurt? Take a hammer to your toe...


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I think he was referring to the basketball he passed after being on opioids for for a while....gotta mix up in laxatives when on pain meds


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## I paint paint (May 4, 2014)

Yeah, yeah. My comment was more a comment on pain relievers who's side effects cause more pain than the original pain they were prescribed to mask.

It is possible to mitigate all the various side effects of opioids but usually, in my experience, they are more trouble than they are worth.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

kdpaint said:


> I think he was referring to the basketball he passed after being on opioids for for a while....gotta mix up in laxatives when on pain meds


You've been there, eh ? 

Yah after I gave birth to that dry, sand coated basketball, I started drinking olive oil. 

My doc warned me it would be the closest experience a man could have to giving birth. He warn't lying.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Damon T said:


> You are not supposed to add any extender to advance, not even BM extender. Just water.





slinger58 said:


> Looking for a ruling here, guys. BM dealers? BM reps? Somebody?
> 
> Anybody?


I have been summoned.

Advance can be thinned with a small amount of clean water. Other solvents or additives of any kind shouldn't be used, and won't be compatible.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> I have been summoned.
> 
> Advance can be thinned with a small amount of clean water. Other solvents or additives of any kind shouldn't be used, and won't be compatible.


And three hail Mary's and a hoop de doo!


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

slinger58 said:


> Looking for a ruling here, guys. BM dealers? BM reps? Somebody?
> 
> Anybody?


Not sure what they recommend. I test things myself through experience working with it. I hated advance the first time I used it. It has a huge learning curve. Once you realize how much water to add, it lays down like a dream. Flotrol don't work at all sorry tried it out before looked like $/$#


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Seth The Painter said:


> Not sure what they recommend. I test things myself through experience working with it. I hated advance the first time I used it. It has a huge learning curve. Once you realize how much water to add, it lays down like a dream. Flotrol don't work at all sorry tried it out before looked like $/$#





DrakeB said:


> I have been summoned.
> 
> Advance can be thinned with a small amount of clean water. Other solvents or additives of any kind shouldn't be used, and won't be compatible.


^ This is what they recommend.


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## Seth The Painter (Jun 24, 2015)

Nice thanks for confirming my man. Advance is like a painters best friend lol. I wish I could work with it everyday.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I never saw the need to add anything to Advance myself. It seems just right the way it is out of the can. 

Steep learning curve? Ah, maybe. Takes some practice for sure. After using it for a while it seems to me to be a pretty forgiving paint. More open time than most acrylics though not as much as traditional alkyds. Spraying the stuff is a dream. Flows out so well. 

IME, runs and sags come from uneven application. Heavy pooling in the details of trim work for example will run every time. Not too big of a deal if you watch what your doing closely and catch the runs as they start (open time allows that), or just don't leave it heavy in the details. 

I see the best results in hand application at a little more than 3mil. Putting on less than that in a effort to avoid runs is counter productive as a thinner coat won't flow out nearly as well. May be a different story if you thin it down and brush a thinner coat, I've never tried it that way.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not even sure it's a learning curve, per se; to me that says there's some kind of skill or talent you have to learn. Really it's more about just straight knowing how to use it. You can do fine with your first can of Advance if someone tells you how; there doesn't have to be much, if any, trial and error (kind of like you have with the Aura before you get it down pat- that definitely has a learning curve imo).


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I kinda hate all these complaints about "learning curves" when people try a new paint. For heavens sake even toilet paper has a learning curve!


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## Casey 123 (Aug 4, 2015)

If you brush it thin on your final coat, it will be flashey, streaky, you'll see brush stroaks, lay it on, then lay it off, be quick and catch your runs. It's beautiful stuff, I'm a convert.


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