# Staining Poplar doors



## pvtgloss (May 25, 2015)

I have done a lot of staining in the commercial sector. I've never stained poplar doors. I've done a little research. I'm having a hard time getting areas to penetrate. They are coming out all blotchy. I sanded with 120 then 220. Wood conditioned and stained. 2nd coat I sanded with 220 and wood conditioned and stained; trying to blend. But there are still areas not penetrating. What do you guys think? Pics after 2nd coat.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

What products are you using?


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## pvtgloss (May 25, 2015)

Min wax provential/natural 50/50


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We spray stain them with Transtint dye usually. A more even look.


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## pvtgloss (May 25, 2015)

I've never done that. Is that a lot of work.do you use HVLP?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It takes a little practice, but not hard. HVLP for sure.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Are you applying the stain within the time frame minwax requires after conditioning. I think it's 15 or 30 minutes. 
There is a waterbased conditioner that has been recommended on here that some have had good results with.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

The pics don't look too bad, hard to tell from here though. 220 seems awfully fine for stain prep. I'm not sure that's helping open the wood grain. May be having the opposite effect in places. I don't like to go any higher than 120-150 for that. 

That combined with the conditioner, you may have just limited the wood's absorption potential too much in those spots. Wood conditioner doesn't really do much to even out absorption rates. It just limits absorption overall and prevents those super dark spots that can happen with soft woods. The side effect can be that the would-be light spots don't absorb at all. 

I've found a shellac wash coat is much more effective at evening out stain absorption than wood conditioners/pre-stains.


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## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

Hmmn. That's no good. Poplar always comes out with a greenish cast, and often doesn't take stain evenly. I consistently tell customers poplar is not a stain-grade material. 

That being said, you can do other finishes. Translucent finishes, adding pigment to shellac. Get the clear or amber, and a tube of sienna or whatever pigment you want, and mix up enough to do the whole batch in one go, because it will be really hard to match it perfectly if you have to mix more.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> The pics don't look too bad, hard to tell from here though. 220 seems awfully fine for stain prep. I'm not sure that's helping open the wood grain. May be having the opposite effect in places. I don't like to go any higher than 120-150 for that.
> 
> That combined with the conditioner, you may have just limited the wood's absorption potential too much in those spots. Wood conditioner doesn't really do much to even out absorption rates. It just limits absorption overall and prevents those super dark spots that can happen with soft woods. The side effect can be that the would-be light spots don't absorb at all.
> 
> I've found a shellac wash coat is much more effective at evening out stain absorption than wood conditioners/pre-stains.


Good points. I think many would fear using lower grit to sand poplar. It is a fine line between sanding to open the wood up and scratchng.

Poplar is a great candidate for toning. Something I hope to learn more about.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

A oil based poly on top. If you can still get it. It ambers a bit. Pulls together. Adds depth. The oil sand and seal was great.
This water based crap now. Doesn't do that for you. Like the oil did.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Wood conditioner often has little effect on reducing blotchy look on poplar. Instead, you can try:

-opening up the grain first by wiping with water. Sounds nutty, but it works, as long as you let it dry back out before applying the stain. 
-use a dye or a gel stain, which seem to produce a more uniform appearance on Poplar, from my experience. 
-shellac wash coat before stain, as Jmays said.
-spray stain vs applying by hand, as Dean said.


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## pvtgloss (May 25, 2015)

I was being really careful trying not to "polish" the grain shut. I did wait 15-30 mins after conditioning. I guess I'm gonna go back and hit the light spots with 150 and restain. I just don't want to make the dark areas any darker. The one side of the door looks ok (bottom pic) except for the lock rails.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Here are a couple spray stain videos I did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDTaGDLTLz0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A4B9gXpr58

The one with doors was done with a turbine HVLP. I usually use a conversion HVLP (compressor powered) now like the top video.

The top video is a 2 quart pressure pot and a Devilbiss VTX gun designed for spray stain. You do not need the special gun, however.

For a more natural look, I do sometime seal the spray stain, sand, and then put a wiping stain on, then my top coats since spray stain can be too uniform at times. Depends on what the customer wants.

I usually end up doing 3 passes with spray stain, fwiw. I find if I match up a small sample using 2 passes, it takes three to match on a full size piece based on how I move with a spray gun. Always keep a sample board handy and check your work against that as you go. Always.


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## gabe (Apr 20, 2012)

Try this : trust me it works: sand door up to 150 grit, then take a wet rag (water ) and wipe down the door really well, should get it all wet . Let dry 10-15 min then stain it. Don't use conditioner. This is called water popping.


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## pvtgloss (May 25, 2015)

thanks man. Im gonna try that right now. I need to figure out how to hit the thanks button on the cell phone. Lol


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Poplar and toning for the win.

However in my opinion I would mix water and oil together as some have suggested. A water based conditioner would work as long as it is completely dry before you stain it.

Minwax is another culprit. It's good stuff but if you don't know a lot about staining, it can ruin a project pretty quick. It has a lot more oil and open time than necessary for the DIY guy, as well as less pigment. If you get a little better quality stain such as Sherwood from Sherwin, you'd be able to tell the difference in the body of the product. 

Gel stains are also a great option. Condition your work and then apply the gel stain. The good thing about these is that you could also try it as a glaze after you put your sanding sealer on the door. Give it a good sand with between 120 and 150 grit, just don't cut through the sanding sealer, and then give it another light coat while wiping it off. This will help you tone the door by hand vs. sprayer (assuming you don't have a sprayer). Then let dry and seal it up again with final sanding etc.

Where there is a will there is a way. You can always try home depot or lowes for some poplar boards. Get stuff that looks really ugly or close to your doors, greens etc. If you can make those look good, you'll have a method of finishing those types of doors.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

using the wet rag will help quite a bit. This is an old school trick that still works. And, I am very opposed to Poplar being considered a stain grade wood. It never was until 15-20 years ago, mainly because it is considerably cheaper than a true stain grade wood. It was traditionally used as a non-stained secondary wood in furniture and cabinet manufacturing. That doesn't change the fact that it typically doesn't stain worth a 5hit.
One of the main reasons it is called a "stain grade", is that you can still buy poplar trim that isn't finger jointed. Our friends at HD and Lowe's have perpetrated that farce.
Another option I have seen used in some NC homes is to use a "good" quality gel stain. In other words use something, almost anything, other than Minwax gel stain. That's a good place to start.


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## allaboutfun (Apr 2, 2015)

I've had good success reducing 24% solids vinyl sealer to 8% then applying after a good 220 sand and vacuum.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

We had a house-full of poplar to do and settled on this:

Wash coat of shellac, 1# cut.

Sand with #320

Old Masters gel stain.

Oil poly.

Some pieces had so much green that we used some red mahogany stain to kill it.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Gough said:


> We had a house-full of poplar to do and settled on this:
> 
> Wash coat of shellac, 1# cut.
> 
> ...


+1 on the method list. Gel Stain over a dye is something I've only tried at home, although results were great. Oxalic has helped me on super green Poplar, but I still have a lot to learn about its' usefulness.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm convinced that some day some contractor will be tearing out trim on a job and say, "Can you believe it? They actually used real poplar in making this finger jointed paint grade trim. Boy, now days that stuff would cost a fortune."


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> +1 on the method list. Gel Stain over a dye is something I've only tried at home, although results were great. Oxalic has helped me on super green Poplar, but I still have a lot to learn about its' usefulness.


We used to make a 5hitload of money making dye stain toners in red and green for some cheap furniture manufacturers in TJ. Something like two ounces of dye stain concentrate in five gallons of acetone or something like that. Sold it for twenty something a gallon and it cost less then $4.00 to make back then. But it saved them a bunch of labor expense.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> I'm convinced that some day some contractor will be tearing out trim on a job and say, "Can you believe it? They actually used real poplar in making this finger jointed paint grade trim. Boy, now days that stuff would cost a fortune."


Everything will eventually be bamboo believe it or not! It's the only wood that can be farmed at a rate that can be sustained forever. Bamboo laminate trim. Get your stain and finish systems down now while you have plenty of time!

And it's from China too!


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Gough said:


> We had a house-full of poplar to do and settled on this:
> 
> Wash coat of shellac, 1# cut.
> .


Curious, why do you use shellac? Just curious to know your reasoning.

I use to do the same, learned more, and switched it out with other things.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I will often use a coat of shellac like Gough does after spray staining if I want to also stain with a wiping stain after the spray stain.

I use the SealCoat because it is dewaxed shellac and compatible with just about everything, but it also limits the grain rise of my subsequent WB topcoats. I will also use it if I feel I need a coat of something warmer for a traditional solvent look under my WB finishes which traditionally have not "warmed" up the wood as much as solvent based stuff. I find that there are now WB finishes that come close to the warmth of a solvent based product though, so it is not always needed. It can also perk the wood up a bit more than a lot of WB coatings can do alone.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

DeanV said:


> I will often use a coat of shellac like Gough does after spray staining if I want to also stain with a wiping stain after the spray stain.
> 
> I use the SealCoat because it is dewaxed shellac and compatible with just about everything, but it also limits the grain rise of my subsequent WB topcoats. I will also use it if I feel I need a coat of something warmer for a traditional solvent look under my WB finishes which traditionally have not "warmed" up the wood as much as solvent based stuff. I find that there are now WB finishes that come close to the warmth of a solvent based product though, so it is not always needed. It can also perk the wood up a bit more than a lot of WB coatings can do alone.


So your main use for it is to reduce grain raise. And your second purpose is for luster under a topcoat.

Is your stain oil based or water based?

Good reasons, I hear people throw out the shellac word a lot on here and just curious to see what they are using it for. Around town no one even knows what shellac is, much less sell it (dewaxed).


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I use it for a tie coat for oil base stains like Old Masters as well if I am doing a WB top coat, but I use other stains now that do not cause adhesion issues that are not WB. Stains like ML Campbell WoodSongII for example (test your stuff first though).


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

woodcoyote said:


> Curious, why do you use shellac? Just curious to know your reasoning.
> 
> I use to do the same, learned more, and switched it out with other things.


Not speaking for Gough, but some of the reasons I use Shellac is the fact that it's easy to appy, (you can apply it with a rag), quick-dry & quick re-coat time, low-odor that dissipates quickly, won't darken or yellow, UV Resistant, compatible with almost everything...the list goes on.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not speaking for Gough, but some of the reasons I use Shellac is the fact that it's easy to appy, (you can apply it with a rag), quick-dry & quick re-coat time, low-odor that dissipates quickly, won't darken or yellow, UV Resistant, compatible with almost everything...the list goes on.


Yep. I agree on everything except the UV resistant part. I've left it out in the sun on scrap stuff and within a week it was shot. I'll vouch for water repellency.

And as a previous poster said, tie-coat is good. Thats what I could see it being used mostly for now adays. Like poster said, get compatibles and then there is no need for a tiecoat. Unless of course your dealing someone else's work (redo).


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

woodcoyote said:


> Curious, why do you use shellac? Just curious to know your reasoning.
> 
> I use to do the same, learned more, and switched it out with other things.


We like the broad compatibility, the ease of use, the lack of a "window" for staining, the quick dry, etc. it's been especially easy since SealCoat came on the market. Prior to that, we made our own from flakes.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not speaking for Gough, but some of the reasons I use Shellac is the fact that it's easy to appy, (you can apply it with a rag), quick-dry & quick re-coat time, low-odor that dissipates quickly, won't darken or yellow, UV Resistant, compatible with almost everything...the list goes on.


Remember Quick-15? wasn't that a shellac? I had many customers using it at one time.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

De-waxed = stearate free. Stearates can cause all kinds of problems with incompatibility. Usually not an issue with the old school clears and stains, but can cause havoc with catalyzed products. lots of cabinets shops have had problems since they switched to pre-cat lacquers for VOC compliance. You have to make sure your stain and any sealers are stearate free, which means no Minwax, Old Masters, etc.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Remember Quick-15? wasn't that a shellac? I had many customers using it at one time.


Pretty sure it was an alkyd varnish. You're right though, the folks who used it really liked it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

RH said:


> I'm convinced that some day some contractor will be tearing out trim on a job and say, "Can you believe it? They actually used real poplar in making this finger jointed paint grade trim. Boy, now days that stuff would cost a fortune."


The lack of thanks to this rather Orwellian post depresses me. Painters are supposed to be philosophers, are we not?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> We like the broad compatibility, the ease of use, the lack of a "window" for staining, the quick dry, etc. it's been especially easy since SealCoat came on the market. Prior to that, we made our own from flakes.



I can't remember. Are you supposed to thin it with DNA for a pre-stain coat? Or straight out of the can?


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Damon T said:


> I can't remember. Are you supposed to thin it with DNA for a pre-stain coat? Or straight out of the can?



Thinned to 5-10% solids by volume, as a general guideline, although there are no rules.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Remember Quick-15? wasn't that a shellac? I had many customers using it at one time.


I think Quick-15 was a VT Varnish (vinyl-toluene).


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> I can't remember. Are you supposed to thin it with DNA for a pre-stain coat? Or straight out of the can?


The Zinsser TDS suggests 2 parts dETOH to 3 parts SealCoat.

I'm resisting the urge to make a crude joke about adding DNA to your material....


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