# Fisheyes in Cabinet Coat



## alexD (Mar 1, 2013)

I've been painting my kitchen doors made of raw mdf for a while now and been struggling with getting a nice finish. I have been using insl-x cabinet coat satin white and went from brushing to spraying with an inexpensive gravity feed hvlp gun from home depot. I chose to go with cabinet coat because of all the good things I have read on the internet about it when googling a waterborne paint that dries hard and flows out well when brushing. Everywhere i was reading people were praising this paint for how well it brushes. My experience with brushing this paint was terrible(paint dragged like crazy and never leveled out). I then switched to spraying and have been getting better results with each coat but still not great (orange peel and other surface imperfections). Originally i was thinning with regular tap water but recently I picked up a book from the library on spray finishing that recommended a larger tip (2.2mm)and thinning with 3 oz of distilled water, and 3 oz of Floetrol per quart of paint. Instead of Floetrol I found an additive by Wagner called Paint easy. Instead of a 2.2 mm tip and needle all I could find (in store in stock) is a gravity feed 2 mm tip and needle. I mixed the paint and applied the paint as the book said and the finish finally looked good other than the fish eyes that were never a problem before. Initially I thought the new gun I bought was contaminated so I spent lots of time cleaning it out and de-greasing it. I switched to a wagner control spray double duty hvlp sprayer(electric) and still have fish eyes. When I went back to brushing, using the same paint mix which left fish eyes when sprayed, there was no fish eyes. The doors were vacuumed and wiped down before being sprayed and brushed so i don't think it was the prep work that left the doors contaminated since all the doors had the same prep(even the one brushed without fish eyes). I'm out of ideas as to what to do next. I've spent so much time and effort on this for it to not turn out good. Even considering changing paints if anyone can suggest something that a novice finisher can spray easily and indoors most of all as I am in Toronto Canada and do not want to wait till spring to finish this project. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

The problem is most likely that the cabinets were not cleaned thoroughly enough and that silicone contamination from products like Pledge etc remained. If you did any sanding that would help spread the contaminants around. Brushing does not suffer from fish eye as you are breaking the surface tension with the brush. Spraying will have fish eyes as the paint can't level out where the silicone is. I changes the surface tension. I ran into this once when using cabinet coat too, but it would have happened no matter what paint I was using. I sanded down the surfaces, loaded up Zinsser BIN in my hvlp, primed all the problem areas, and then continued painting without any more problems. I think this should do the trick for you too. 
The paint will brush well and roll well with a 1/4" mohair roller. You will want to thin a little for brushing. I prefer XIM extender over floetrol. 
I typically just thin with water when spraying, not extender.


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## alexD (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks for your reply Damon. When I first encountered the fish eyes I did a little researching on the web and came to that same conclusion so I grabbed a scrap piece of melamine that had no contact with the sandpaper or cloths used for prep of the doors and after spraying it had the same issue so I excluded that as a possibility. Tomorrow I will sand and prime the doors as you suggested (painted ones with the fish eyes). Once I noticed the fish eyes I stopped painting and have a bunch of doors that haven't been coated yet. What would you suggest as the cleaner for those prepped doors that potentially have silicone on them?


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## hotwing7 (Mar 31, 2012)

alexD said:


> Thanks for your reply Damon. When I first encountered the fish eyes I did a little researching on the web and came to that same conclusion so I grabbed a scrap piece of melamine that had no contact with the sandpaper or cloths used for prep of the doors and after spraying it had the same issue so I excluded that as a possibility. Tomorrow I will sand and prime the doors as you suggested (painted ones with the fish eyes). Once I noticed the fish eyes I stopped painting and have a bunch of doors that haven't been coated yet. What would you suggest as the cleaner for those prepped doors that potentially have silicone on them?


Did you wipe them down with a methyl hydrate after sanding.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

There is an automotive product for eliminating fish-eyes. Couple of drops per quart. With many of the new automotive products becoming water-based, you may want to look into seeing if they offer something for it. I've used it with oil-based finishes with no problem.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Is your air clean? Could also be oil or contaminates from your compressor.

http://amzn.com/B001NSYV58


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## 1camper (Feb 17, 2013)

Sounds like its not all the doors but just a couple. That would make me think they weren't wiped down properly with a silicone and wax remover. Precleano 901 or whatever the equivalent is now.

If it's just a few fisheyes in a small area, you can dust them with a very, very small amount of material, let them flash then put a regular coat on them. Wouldn't hurt to use a grenade filter just before the gun.


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## sincere painter (Apr 14, 2010)

I've heard of a solvent for cleaning silicone prior to painting. 

I think some newer polishes have silicone in them which leave a residue. 

When brushing on latex near poly'd wood work sometimes there's a little fish eye. Sometimes a finger rub while applying helps the paint bond then a finish brush. 

I wish I knew what that stuff was called. Must be a more practical way like sanding and/or bins.


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## bodean614 (May 31, 2011)

I worked for custom cabinet shop spray conversion varnish and we found some under arm deodorant has silicone in it and this was the cause of fish eye that we were seeing. 
Hell one never knows.


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## Seattlepainting (Jun 8, 2010)

Good comments Damon. 

I think it has been covered in this thread. Fish eye is contaminant on the substrate ( most common ), or contaminant in spray equipment ( water, oil, or other ).

The OP makes a good point about using a control sample and we do this also; to isolate problems or quality control. If you have a 100 piece cabinet pack ; you could have a multitude of surface conditions. On dirty or existing finish packages ( repaints y'all ) we mark the potential contaminant substrates : silverware drawers, under sink doors/drawers (cleaners, waxes, etc).. medicine cabinets ( deodorant, gels, etc)..and degrease these. The most extreme is chemical stripping and solvent wipe.

Shearer for whatever reason gets involved in many high gloss finishes; the critical step is always surface and equipment decontamination. We never skip steps ( 99% true ); ... Skipping steps for prep never saves time.

In recent years I have noticed an unusual condition: contaminant from cheap sand paper. This happens on jobs where we take over or are called in to relief pitch. One result of the economic recession; every consumable in the trades birthed a " cost alternative" ... The most famous of course was drywall from China. I have seen many unlabeled and off brand sandpapers that did not exist in 1999. twice we have isolated contaminant issues ( fish eye ) directly from off brand sand papers; bulk purchase of consumables for new speculative building construction.

Always test fish eye reducer before you go live; the stuff is not supposed change the finish or performance of coatings but the sheen can be altered in non automotive finishes... Just my experience.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Ah the joys of spraying repaint cabinets.... You just never know what you're gonna get. Didn't Forest Gump say something about that? 

Good tip on the sandpaper John. Probably something in the stearated coating meant to resist clogging.


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## Seattlepainting (Jun 8, 2010)

Damon T said:


> Ah the joys of spraying repaint cabinets.... You just never know what you're gonna get. Didn't Forest Gump say something about that?
> 
> Good tip on the sandpaper John. Probably something in the stearated coating meant to resist clogging.


I think coatings for clogging and also using anything they can kind off the shop floor as an abrasive (manufacturing by product re-use ) causing a silicone type signature...does not take a whole..

Face and hair dander can be seen on super high gloss like the Finer P of E blacks; we have mistaken this fish eye also.


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## alexD (Mar 1, 2013)

Much thanks to everyone who responded. After reading the posts that I left last night I noticed I myself didn't understand much of what I was saying. So... The doors I am painting were never painted before. They are MDF doors made on a CNC machine. I primed them with CC because the makers of it say its self priming (just lightly sand smooth surfaces). I thinned it with tap water about 5 times the recommended maximum to get it to spray nice out of a 1.5mm tip but the coats were too thin to even hide the scratch marks left by sandpaper between coats in some cases. After reading a book from the library I did as the book says and picked up a gun with a bigger spray tip, thinned the paint with *distilled* water and floetrol(wagner's brand). After doing the same prep as with previous coats I ended up having fish eyes on the doors even though they were not there before. The sand paper I used was the same as the previous coats so cant be that. But for sake of argument I sprayed a new piece of melamine which was never sanded or wiped by anything and got fish eyes. I put an inline filter for my gun at the gun just before the regulator and still had fish eyes. So I figured the spray gun being new must have some sort of oil or grease from manufacturing still in it. And I rinsed it with paint thinner, followed by lacquer thinner, followed by methyl hydrate, followed by water before putting on paint and still had fish eyes. I then concluded that its the "wagner paint easy", distilled water or the new can of paint that i bought. Maybe even the empty paint can I got from home depot that I put the mixed paint for spraying into. Mixed the remaining paint from the original can with distilled water only and had fish eyes. that excluded the "spray easy", and the home depot can. About the only thing I haven't done is wipe the doors down with methyl hydrate before spraying as hotwing7 mentioned. I'm off to the store to get a new can and experiment and will try the methyl hydrate rubdown before paint this time as well.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

alexD said:


> I've been painting my kitchen doors made of raw mdf for a while now and been struggling with getting a nice finish. I have been using insl-x cabinet coat satin white and went from brushing to spraying with an inexpensive gravity feed hvlp gun from home depot. I chose to go with cabinet coat because of all the good things I have read on the internet about it when googling a waterborne paint that dries hard and flows out well when brushing. Everywhere i was reading people were praising this paint for how well it brushes. My experience with brushing this paint was terrible(paint dragged like crazy and never leveled out). I then switched to spraying and have been getting better results with each coat but still not great (orange peel and other surface imperfections). Originally i was thinning with regular tap water but recently I picked up a book from the library on spray finishing that recommended a larger tip (2.2mm)and thinning with 3 oz of distilled water, and 3 oz of Floetrol per quart of paint. Instead of Floetrol I found an additive by Wagner called Paint easy. Instead of a 2.2 mm tip and needle all I could find (in store in stock) is a gravity feed 2 mm tip and needle. I mixed the paint and applied the paint as the book said and the finish finally looked good other than the fish eyes that were never a problem before. Initially I thought the new gun I bought was contaminated so I spent lots of time cleaning it out and de-greasing it. I switched to a wagner control spray double duty hvlp sprayer(electric) and still have fish eyes. When I went back to brushing, using the same paint mix which left fish eyes when sprayed, there was no fish eyes. The doors were vacuumed and wiped down before being sprayed and brushed so i don't think it was the prep work that left the doors contaminated since all the doors had the same prep(even the one brushed without fish eyes). I'm out of ideas as to what to do next. I've spent so much time and effort on this for it to not turn out good. Even considering changing paints if anyone can suggest something that a novice finisher can spray easily and indoors most of all as I am in Toronto Canada and do not want to wait till spring to finish this project. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


1) You need a better sprayer. 

2) You need a clean surface. Cabinet Coat is a urethane product and as such it'll be sensitive to surface contaminants. 

3) You don't need to thin it - cc is already a thin product. 

4) Excess film build will aggravate the fisheye problem. Keep it to 4 mils or less per coat. (3 should be enough). 

4.5) Prime before applying CC - (it says it is self priming but it requires a primer regardless).

5) Dry, filtered compressed air will work better than a vacuum for removing dust


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Overthinning can cause fisheyes, and many other problems. Think of water beading on the surface - you are approaching the surface tension of water as you reduce the surfactant concentration. Instead of thinning with pure water, try ThinX or equivalent (or add dish soap). 
You would be better off with an airless, air assisted airless, or a reduced presssur gun when trying to spray paint. You would not have to thin much relative to hvlp. This is the start of the learning curve!


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## alexD (Mar 1, 2013)

Picked up another can of CC today, thinned with 20% with tap water(no extender, or "distilled" water), sprayed with the same equipment I had trouble with before, and same doors without any additional prep, and got great results without fish eyes!!!!:thumbup: I *believe* that the problem was the can I purchased to store the mix in, but who knows. The lesson I learned is to treat mixing, thinning, clean up and pouring as surgery and assume everything is contaminated including the stir stick you get from the store. Never knew paint could be so fussy.
Rcon - I don't know what kind of sprayer I would need to get it to spray CC without thinning, but this is the thickest paint I have ever seen. Its the consistency of nacho cheese. I heard there are two types of CC from reading some of the posts on other threads. Maybe I just got the one not familiar to everyone else. I am not sure. The sprayer I got is definitely not professional grade but I am not planning to go into the painting business after this. I just enjoy taking on new projects and take great pride in the results I achieve. Most people couldn't pick apart a paint job as well as most people on this forum could. My wife thought the doors looked good three coats ago but she isn't very fussy(and I am). Thanks to everyone who tried to help and I want to add that being in the construction trade myself, I'm very pleased that there are people like yourselves who take pride in their work and don't just do it for the money, and are also willing to take the time to try and help someone as inexperienced as me in achieving professional(or close) results. Thanks again!!!


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

so after all this you admit that you are not a professional painter. ok then :thumbsup: i hope that your DIY project went well.


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## alexD (Mar 1, 2013)

Xmark said:


> so after all this you admit that you are not a professional painter. ok then :thumbsup: i hope that your DIY project went well.


I never claimed to be a professional painter. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong but are you being sarcastic?


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

alexD said:


> Picked up another can of CC today, thinned with 20% with tap water(no extender, or "distilled" water), sprayed with the same equipment I had trouble with before, and same doors without any additional prep, and got great results without fish eyes!!!!:thumbup: I *believe* that the problem was the can I purchased to store the mix in, but who knows. The lesson I learned is to treat mixing, thinning, clean up and pouring as surgery and assume everything is contaminated including the stir stick you get from the store. Never knew paint could be so fussy.
> Rcon - I don't know what kind of sprayer I would need to get it to spray CC without thinning, but this is the thickest paint I have ever seen. Its the consistency of nacho cheese. I heard there are two types of CC from reading some of the posts on other threads. Maybe I just got the one not familiar to everyone else. I am not sure. The sprayer I got is definitely not professional grade but I am not planning to go into the painting business after this. I just enjoy taking on new projects and take great pride in the results I achieve. Most people couldn't pick apart a paint job as well as most people on this forum could. My wife thought the doors looked good three coats ago but she isn't very fussy(and I am). Thanks to everyone who tried to help and I want to add that being in the construction trade myself, I'm very pleased that there are people like yourselves who take pride in their work and don't just do it for the money, and are also willing to take the time to try and help someone as inexperienced as me in achieving professional(or close) results. Thanks again!!!


You're using a cheap hvlp that goes from spitting paint to atomizing when you thin it down enough. The paint has to be thinned way down to be sprayed with those things. Way down. That's why it's a cheap machine.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Just finished spraying bin and two coats on some cabinet doors. Fisheyes all over a bunch of them. They were all cleaned twice with a heavy duty degreaser, sanded, sprayed bin, sanded and sprayed two top coats of pro classic with sanding in between. 

Maybe there was some wax on them or the grease was never fully removed. But now that I am a few coats in, I am wondering if I prime them again the problem may go away as its too late for cleaning them again, or if I use a foam roller that may help work it in a bit better,,


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

If your paint is too thick and you've already reduced it as much as the directions state, then heat the paint. This will give you the viscosity without sacrificing integrity. Multiple watered-down coats on raw MDF is not conducive to a smooth finish.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> If your paint is too thick and you've already reduced it as much as the directions state, then heat the paint. This will give you the viscosity without sacrificing integrity. Multiple watered-down coats on raw MDF is not conducive to a smooth finish.



Theres a couple types of fish eyes I've seen in spraying. The most common are the true fish eyes caused by contaminants. They are typically larger (1/8" or more) and sometimes you can discern a pattern. Then there are solvent entrapment pin holes. Much smaller. Maybe 1/16". Can be totally random and occur over primed or unprimed surfaces. This is what cabinet coat often does when I try spraying it. Reports of XIM extender helping have given me thoughts of shooting it again. 
Aaron what more can you describe of the problems you're having?


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Damon T said:


> Theres a couple types of fish eyes I've seen in spraying. The most common are the true fish eyes caused by contaminants. They are typically larger (1/8" or more) and sometimes you can discern a pattern. Then there are solvent entrapment pin holes. Much smaller. Maybe 1/16". Can be totally random and occur over primed or unprimed surfaces. This is what cabinet coat often does when I try spraying it. Reports of XIM extender helping have given me thoughts of shooting it again.
> Aaron what more can you describe of the problems you're having?


I would say it's the latter problem little pinhole size spots or holes throughout the doors.

Also the old stain is bleeding through the finish


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## Paintuh4Life (May 20, 2009)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Just finished spraying bin and two coats on some cabinet doors. Fisheyes all over a bunch of them. They were all cleaned twice with a heavy duty degreaser, sanded, sprayed bin, sanded and sprayed two top coats of pro classic with sanding in between.
> 
> Maybe there was some wax on them or the grease was never fully removed. But now that I am a few coats in, I am wondering if I prime them again the problem may go away as its too late for cleaning them again, or if I use a foam roller that may help work it in a bit better,,


We love to use BIN, but my Miller Paint rep here in Portland (He's been my rep for over 20 years and I respect his opinion) warns that there is wax in it and when top coating with acrylics, there is the potential for fisheyes. 

We did a job recently where we primed with BIN and had planned on top coating with Breakthrough. I shot one door with Breakthrough and it fisheyed. We stopped and switched to SW Alkyd Industrial Enamel VOC and it worked great.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Here is a picture of some or the pits that is happening .

My solution right now is to foam roll another full coat of bin to really work it into the grain 

Then I am going to foam roll a coat of the pro classic over it to ensure that it's pushed into the grain once again 

Then I'm going to spray finish the second coat 
Hopefully that works out a bit better 


One thing iv always been stumped on is whether or not to caulk the panels. I think they would look way better but I read on here once about them separating in different seasons


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