# Ben moore Advance



## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Finally getting a good feel for this trim paint. After trying 7 different brushes and several gallons, I finally have a good feel for this paint. We are using semi gloss off white for doors and trim and full gloss blackish brown for handrail. Am using a 2 inch chinex angular and I have to admit, the handrail looks like it was sprayed. There is a learning curve with this beast. I am use to oils, was taught with oils first when we were kids. Have to admit advance flows out well once you figure it out. Dries fast for a second coat application and it is low odor, a definite bonus. It sprays out beautiful. 2 light coats instead of 1 regular coat works best. Thanks Benny.


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## South-FL-Painter (Jan 17, 2012)

Zoomer said:


> Finally getting a good feel for this trim paint. After trying 7 different brushes and several gallons, I finally have a good feel for this paint. We are using semi gloss off white for doors and trim and full gloss blackish brown for handrail. Am using a 2 inch chinex angular and I have to admit, the handrail looks like it was sprayed. There is a learning curve with this beast. I am use to oils, was taught with oils first when we were kids. Have to admit advance flows out well once you figure it out. Dries fast for a second coat application and it is low odor, a definite bonus. It sprays out beautiful. 2 light coats instead of 1 regular coat works best. Thanks Benny.


I like spraying advance with FF tips first coat 0.14 and second 0.12 at about 2800psi.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good to see Zoomer! I'm going to purchase some soon for a fairly large trim project.

I have to ask, what was the learning curve as far as application?

-Air circulation flowing over the surface dries it too fast ?

-72 degree temps too warm for it to lay down?

-Temps below 60 degrees causes runs?

-Can't tip brush on areas previously laid off?

-Need reducer or retarder?

-Chinex is the only brush that applies it the best?

-Material in open pot skins up?

-Need to clean brush frequently to eliminate dried build up?

-Needs to be used with bumped up ventilation?

Thanks for any input.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

We tried nylon/poly, nylon, syntox and nylon/poly/chinex, all different brands and sizes. 
Have not had trouble in warmer temps. 
Thin coats and dont start in corners. Work into corners or risk the paint running. 
Cleaning your brush every once in a while is great advice 
Have not added any extenders so far.
Wooster mini rollers 3/8" work well for laying off doors. 
After finishing a door I look back on previous door and lightly roll over any run. The paint levels out nicely.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

The best Nylon brush so far is Corona Champagne Nylon. I haven't try their Chinex yet. Coron's Nylon/Polyester blend would be my second choice.
I didn't find any Wooster brush go with it well.

Purdy Nylon will work fine with it also...

No need to use extender


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Tried the purdy pro extra today. The chinex and pro extra work equally well with Advance imo.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Zoomer said:


> Tried the purdy pro extra today. The chinex and pro extra work equally well with Advance imo.


Those are the blue bristles right?! Love 'em but would have thought chinex would be better. Good to know. Probably almost anything will make Advance look good. It's pretty forgiving.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

The blue filaments, correct. Better than all nylon which are too soft, better than nylon/poly which dont flag as well, or syntox which is too soft and doesnt have good shape retention.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Interesting story about the purdy pro-extra brushes, I always used china bristle when using oil impervo, or any oil paint. Then I was once working with this guy and had to paint baseboard and used a pro-extra brush he had handy - I never painted baseboard so fast!


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

Zoomer said:


> Tried the purdy pro extra today. The chinex and pro extra work equally well with Advance imo.



I wonder if Wooster ultra/pro extra firm will work also?


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## Red Truck (Feb 10, 2013)

We love this paint, especially for cabinets. I worked with Cabinet Coat for a few years, and then switched to Advance. We find it dries harder - which is always a big one for cabinets. Still gotta use the all powerful Stix first though! 

How does it preform over old oil? Self priming for that? We just bid a really big, really old interior calling for two coats of this. It would be nice to work with this for a change. I'm an Aura guy primarily. :thumbsup:


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

We have gotten some great finishes with Advance, especially sprayed. Its not the paint for fastest turnaround, but in the right situations, it is a great finish. 

Grand Entrance is more the go to for fast turnaround in a similar (better) finish. 

And then, there are those lacquers...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have been using Ace wb alkyd this past month, and it too is a nice alternative. Will be spraying it on some cabinetry next week. Ceiling we did last week turned out great, its real similar to advance.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> I have been using Ace wb alkyd this past month, and it too is a nice alternative. Will be spraying it on some cabinetry next week. Ceiling we did last week turned out great, its real similar to advance.


stilts? :blink:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Na I did that whole room off of five work platforms I got when they were on black friday sale. Never had to step down, 9' ceilings.


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## Brian339 (Mar 15, 2009)

I just finished painting a whole bunch of trim with the Advance. I love this product. It's my new trim paint. I was on a Muralo kick for a while but the finish just looks to plastic. BM got this product right. Once you get that learning curve out of the way it's a blast to apply. I do use a little XIM extender in it. Probably two ounces to a quart. I think it gives it just a little more time to level but there is a trade off for this. You really have to watch for runs but the finish is so nice. I hate that rubbed in look from fixing runs with acrylic and I feel the XIM helps with this minor issue.
I keep telling my guys to check there god dam work. They don't get it so they don't get to enjoy the sweet work like trim.
Satin Imprervo is by far the best trim paint but soon it will be gone forever. Advance is a great replacement and the biggest upside is it won't yellow or loose its luster over time.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

My BM store says it will yellow over time, not as drastically as oil, but it will.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Poser :jester:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Only when I get paid enough to show off.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Just curious. Nobody here refers to Dulamel. Same exact product as Impervo but with higher sheen (semi-gloss). We always prefered a higher sheen for our trim projects. Too bad it's discontinued.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I thought dulamel was gloss?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Personally, I thought Dulamel sucked.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Zoomer said:


> Just curious. Nobody here refers to Dulamel. Same exact product as Impervo but with higher sheen (semi-gloss). We always prefered a higher sheen for our trim projects. Too bad it's discontinued.


We used tons of it back in the day...there was actually the semi-gloss version & an eggshell version as well. I still have customers where the walls are painted with Dulamel Eggshell. It lasts forever, especially in colors where you don't notice the ambering. I still have a couple of quarts(s/g) in the shop unopened. Saving it for a "special occasion"


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> Personally, I thought Dulamel sucked.


 We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Scott...


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

CliffK said:


> We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Scott...


I too disagree. Dulamel was a great product. Both semi and eggshell.


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## workin'man (Jan 18, 2013)

I used BM Advanced when it first came out. Absolutely will never use it again!
I am not a fan of BM! I only use them if I cannot talk a customer out of it.... but I usally do!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

workin'man said:


> I used BM Advanced when it first came out. Absolutely will never use it again!
> I am not a fan of BM! I only use them if I cannot talk a customer out of it.... but I usally do!


Why don't you like them? Is it the price, paint, not enough locations, customer service, other paint preference, no coffee at the store, no delivery,? What do you prefer?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Its like this guy I used to know, he always said, "nothin but Ben Moore...its the best!" He refused to use anything else, ever. I think that attitude is just odd. Every company makes some good stuff.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Very true, every company makes SOME good stuff.


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## workin'man (Jan 18, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Why don't you like them? Is it the price, paint, not enough locations, customer service, other paint preference, no coffee at the store, no delivery,? What do you prefer?


Lets just say I spent the last twenty minutes listing all the problems I have had in the last 25years...... and my battery died! Its probably better off that it was lost to the internet. I would be better off directing a two hour serious conversation with my BM rep.... the problem is they never gave me one. A rep called me once, he wated me to drive to some fancy BM store in the next town for some BBQ. He is the one that gets paid for driving around. He needs to bring his ass and products to my turf!
I just switched from DE to SW. I recc. Duration/Superpaint for exteriors amongst other specialty terpolimers, and try to spec a product on the interio based from the clients needs. I love the Cashmere line. 
SW is a a lot more professional.
When you have painted for 25-30 years you are looking for a complete pakage in a wholsale paint/contractor relationship.
At the age of 16 I went to a million dollar college that taught all aspects of the automotive painting field. Lets just say I usually teach my paint reps about their products. And I just BS with the ones that just want my $$$.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

workin'man said:


> Lets just say I spent the last twenty minutes listing all the problems I have had in the last 25years...... and my battery died! Its probably better off that it was lost to the internet. I would be better off directing a two hour serious conversation with my BM rep.... the problem is they never gave me one. A rep called me once, he wated me to drive to some fancy BM store in the next town for some BBQ. He is the one that gets paid for driving around. He needs to bring his ass and products to my turf!
> I just switched from DE to SW. I recc. Duration/Superpaint for exteriors amongst other specialty terpolimers, and try to spec a product on the interio based from the clients needs. I love the Cashmere line.
> SW is a a lot more professional.
> When you have painted for 25-30 years you are looking for a complete pakage in a wholsale paint/contractor relationship.
> At the age of 16 I went to a million dollar college that taught all aspects of the automotive painting field. Lets just say I usually teach my paint reps about their products. And I just BS with the ones that just want my $$$.


I actually prefer Kelly Moore Paints when it comes to residential, but I have used Benjamine Moore paint on some exteriors in an industrial setting, and it has held up well in the last three years.


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## workin'man (Jan 18, 2013)

I couldnt agree more... KM has always been consistent which is their best quality. I went through a tour of the plant in San Carlos when I graduated my apprentice program. Watched them make paint and the whole process. Bag of this, bag of that and a lot of water! Sometimes an average paint is just as good if not better than high performance. It just depends on the circumstance. I have painted hundreds of homes w 1240/1245 never a problem.
Things just changed with the new colorants..... thats why I switched gears to SW lately colors seems more stable.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Started my master bath repaint last night. Used the 046 primer on stained unfinished pine followed by 2 coats of Advance Satin. I don't see why guys are having problems with runs. The stuff is great, and my brush skills are middle road at best. After a coat of primer and 1st coat finish it looks great. Laid down great and tacked up fast. The only drawback is that you really can't go back and tip it off. Just lay it on right and go.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> Started my master bath repaint last night. Used the 046 primer on stained unfinished pine followed by 2 coats of Advance Satin. I don't see why guys are having problems with runs. The stuff is great, and my brush skills are middle road at best. After a coat of primer and 1st coat finish it looks great. Laid down great and tacked up fast. The only drawback is that you really can't go back and tip it off. Just lay it on right and go.


I agree with you, lay it on right and go.


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## AbsolutePainting (Feb 9, 2011)

I hate to sound like a negative nancy, but after reading most of the threads on this product over the past year, plus- can someone tell me the true advantages to using this product besides appearance when sprayed, low voc and water cleanup? To play devil's advocate for a moment, I've read there is a substantial learning curve, it takes a long time to dry, prone to runs and sags, it's expensive, has a long cure time (poor block resistance), and yellows over time. What am I missing out on?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

AbsolutePainting said:


> I hate to sound like a negative nancy, but after reading most of the threads on this product over the past year, plus- can someone tell me the true advantages to using this product besides appearance when sprayed, low voc and water cleanup? To play devil's advocate for a moment, I've read there is a substantial learning curve, it takes a long time to dry, prone to runs and sags, it's expensive, has a long cure time (poor block resistance), and yellows over time. What am I missing out on?


Test it out and see. Brushes amazing. No real learning curve, unless perhaps you're spraying with airless. Can be recoated within an hour or two in good temps(my experience, not the TDS). Long cure before putting things on a shelf yes, but not for most uses of trim. 

That being said I'm using more acrylic urethane products right now rather than hybrids.

Also adhesion does appear to be an Achilles heel of this product, but I think that's still up in the air somewhat.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

Sprayed 11 doors with semi gloss Advance today. Used a 210 ff tip and had zero problems. The doors were a very dirty antique white and we sprayed over them with bm white dove. No runs, no problems.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Zoomer said:


> Sprayed 11 doors with semi gloss Advance today. Used a 210 ff tip and had zero problems. The doors were a very dirty antique white and we sprayed over them with bm white dove. No runs, no problems.


 
is it gonna turn yellow down the road?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I think Advance will yellow. No one says it won't, and most BM guys say it will "a little," whatever that means.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

kdpaint said:


> I think Advance will yellow. No one says it won't, and most BM guys say it will "a little," whatever that means.


It's oil. Oils yellow, some more than others. Satin Impervo was notorious for this. Advance will yellow some, and most people won't notice. You may notice touching up, but how many times do you spot touch up trim and doors? 

So when we say "a little" yellowing, that's what we mean. Going to be less noticeable in off whites and colors, obviously.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> It's oil. Oils yellow, some more than others. Satin Impervo was notorious for this. Advance will yellow some, and most people won't notice. You may notice touching up, but how many times do you spot touch up trim and doors?
> 
> So when we say "a little" yellowing, that's what we mean. Going to be less noticeable in off whites and colors, obviously.


 We used to get calls to paint trim/woodwork more frequently when it ambered. Having the trim stay white forever is not _"necessarily"_ a good thing.....


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

For really "white" whites, on cabinets and such, I would hesitate telling an HO that this job may look slightly yellow in a few years. That kind of call back I would like to pass on. For darker whites and other colors I could deal with it.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

kdpaint said:


> For really "white" whites, on cabinets and such, I would hesitate telling an HO that this job may look slightly yellow in a few years. That kind of call back I would like to pass on. For darker whites and other colors I could deal with it.


 
well,I was asking because I am going to paint my new cabnet doors white and I sure as hell do not want them turning even a "little" yellow:no:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

*My Benjamin Moore Advance Report*

*Job Description:*

-Paint over previously brushed oil based doors, applied twenty five years ago.

-Thirty solid core fire rated doors, with metal casings and closures

-Deep tone color [basically a lot of Burnt umber with a splash of Blue], Dulled, but in good shape with minor nicks

*Environment:*

-Lab, with technical personnel and equipment

*Surface preparation:*

-Clean with degreasing product

-Sand with 220 grit

*Application:* 

-One coat semi gloss, brushed only

*Logistics:*

-$49.00 per gal

-1.5 inch and 3.5 inch Corona Chinex "Edge"

-Used the Advance straight, no cut

*Report:*

I immediately noticed how smooth BM Advance brushes. The open time to brush and lay down is at least five times longer then BM WB Super Spec DTM. The finish is clearly better then The DTM SS, and also allows more time for hitting runs or blending without leaving lap or drag marks in the finish, like the DTM does.

There was hardly a distinct oil base smell. No one complained, and probably couldn't distinguish between the 100% waterbornes I've used on the hallway and office walls before.

*Summary:*

I'm very pleased with Advance, and it will now be my interior trim enamel. The brushes cleaned well with just water.However, I am concerned about applicator exposure without respiration, but being that a respirator will raise concerns from personnel, I'll incorporate good ventilation instead.

Thanks for the thread Zoomer!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

CApainter said:


> My Benjamin Moore Advance Report
> 
> Job Description:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the report. If possible do an adhesion test after a month. Cut an X somewhere hard to see, put on tape and remove quickly (sorry you probably ly knew that already). That seems to be the question over old oil.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Damon T said:


> Thanks for the report. If possible do an adhesion test after a month. Cut an X somewhere hard to see, put on tape and remove quickly (sorry you probably ly knew that already). That seems to be the question over old oil.


Thanks DamonT. I was going to mention a follow up adhesion test. Which I'll do in the time frame you suggested. I'll also do some abrasion tests and see how the Advance touches up.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

CA, that put my "I used it and its good" review to shame.


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## PaintChem (Feb 5, 2013)

kdpaint said:


> My BM store says it will yellow over time, not as drastically as oil, but it will.



It will yellow. But Ben Moore chose the right neutralizing agent for their alkyd. Some companies didn't choose the right one and it basically turns the paint very yellow/brown quickly in hot and dark conditions.


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## PaintChem (Feb 5, 2013)

AbsolutePainting said:


> I hate to sound like a negative nancy, but after reading most of the threads on this product over the past year, plus- can someone tell me the true advantages to using this product besides appearance when sprayed, low voc and water cleanup? To play devil's advocate for a moment, I've read there is a substantial learning curve, it takes a long time to dry, prone to runs and sags, it's expensive, has a long cure time (poor block resistance), and yellows over time. What am I missing out on?



I have done a lot of formulating these products and am familiar with all of the resins that are out on the market right now. I'll address your points:

1) Substantial learning curve - Properly formulated, you should be able to get a level 5 finish with these products very easily. They are oils, so they keep flowing after the water leaves the film. I have painted cabinetry by hand that looks factory finished.

2) Long dry time - This is true. They are still an oil, so they will need time to crosslink and harden. 24 hour block resistance can be achieved using a variety of formulation tricks.

3) Expense - Yes, because the modifications they have made to the alkyd requires acrylates or urethanes. You can get a good value out of these products if used in the right places.

4) Yellows over time - Yes, it will yellow. Formulators can take steps to reduce the amount it will yellow. Oils gonna oil.


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## PaintChem (Feb 5, 2013)

CApainter said:


> BM WB Super Spec DTM.



Not sure why everyone is so hot and heavy on BM super spec and iron clad products. When I tested them they didn't hold up in testing nearly as good as some other products that would surprise you.

BM super spec
BM iron clad
SW DTM Acrylic 

all over-rated imo.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintChem said:


> Not sure why everyone is so hot and heavy on BM super spec and iron clad products. When I tested them they didn't hold up in testing nearly as good as some other products that would surprise you.
> 
> BM super spec
> BM iron clad
> ...


I've only used the BM Waterborne DTM Super Spec on one set of double doors, and quckly abandoned it. The Advance is a superior product, albiet an alkyd modified.

Now if you want a good commercial and light industrial single component waterborne DTM, I would recommend PPG's Pitt Tech Plus.


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