# The dreaded solid stain deck restore



## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm so discouraged. After the 4th session of solid stain removal prep I'm still not done. I want to give my customers a deck with a penetrating stain that won't peel but need something semi solid to mask all the stain I can't get up. 

What stain is penetrating AND semi solid? Maybe there are other options I'm not thinking of.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Have you sanded the boards? 

Don't think any semi trans or semi solid stains are really going to make up for insufficient prep. 

Looking at the pic I would guess a day with an orbital and some 60 grit would easily take the floor boards down to fresh wood. 

That may sound like a terrible option after already investing so much labor, but it's the best one IMO. 


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

The first day we pressure washed with a chemical stripper. Second day sanded with orbitals. Third day sanded with the angle grinder. So I lied... It's only been 3 days. 

I used a wire wheel on a corded drill for in between the spindles. And a mouse sander for the smaller areas between the spindles. Am I doing more work than necessary?


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

What he said...although a full day is pushing it with the oribital, it's a pretty small deck  A semi solid alkyd stain like Amstrong Clark, TWP, or Storm System 3 would be good after some more prep.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

On the plus side... my forearms and biceps are built and can't beat the farmers tan I have going.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Armstrong Clark has a good semi-solid but that deck is not ready for anything except a solid. Rent a floor sander, countersink the fastners, and get the horizontals ready. Rails, you can always go two-tone.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

So if I can the horizontals completely down to bare wood, you'd two tone it? How much extra work is that? Not bad or a pain in the A?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I'd tell you to try a GOOD chemical stripper specifically designed for deck finishes, as well as the sanding. The sanding helps remove the old finish from the surface, but if you want any new product to penetrate you need to get the old finish out of the pores as well. Sanding with 60 grit helps, but to get a good penetration from the new stain you need to take a two step approach and get as much out of the pores/grain of the wood as possible. Using a stripper as well (a GOOD stripper) gets as much out of the pores as possible. (Cali wood stripper 50420)


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

AngieM said:


> So if I can the horizontals completely down to bare wood, you'd two tone it? How much extra work is that? Not bad or a pain in the A?


Here's a few that had several coats of solid stain (both alkyd & acrylic). It's hard enough to strip it from large flat areas but railings I usually don't even try anymore.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

It's a lot of work so charge appropriately. In this case they were planning on a composite deck replacement so the 50k+ price tag made mine so much more palatable.

The first pic was my test spot to see what would come off.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Thanks all!


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

AngieM said:


> The first day we pressure washed with a chemical stripper. Second day sanded with orbitals. Third day sanded with the angle grinder. So I lied... It's only been 3 days.
> 
> I used a wire wheel on a corded drill for in between the spindles. And a mouse sander for the smaller areas between the spindles. Am I doing more work than necessary?


How many days after power washing did you start sanding?

I agree a day with a power sander the deck will look better.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

We waited a week after pressure washing to sand. I started staining today with Sherwin Williams duckback semi solid, classic barn red. It applies like a dream where I have it completely sanded of course. It does a decent job of masking the areas I couldn't completely strip. The wet on wet double coat is crucial.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Waterborne semi solid Sherwin Williams


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

Two-tone?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

AngieM said:


> The first day we pressure washed with a chemical stripper. Second day sanded with orbitals. Third day sanded with the angle grinder. So I lied... It's only been 3 days.
> 
> I used a wire wheel on a corded drill for in between the spindles. And a mouse sander for the smaller areas between the spindles. Am I doing more work than necessary?


Yes. Would have been less labor to build a new one. Looks nice now. :thumbsup:


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

You only need to do one of these to learn a lesson.. and some of us stubborn ones have dozens.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

Tonyg said:


> Two-tone?


I'm not done. Finishing tomorrow, finally!


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

That waterborne crap peels remember it's film forming not like oil FYI. That crap BM was pushing few years ago the Arborcoat waterborne and worse the clear coat junk. Nothing but problems. I'm all for easy and all for a great looking uniform finish I do allot of solid decks. But only cause no other option will work $$$$ wise. They will peel especially horizontals. We all luck out but I've seen many a PC wish they never saw that waterborne . Not saying your work isn't good or it doesn't look good it's not a oil so it forms a film...


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> That waterborne crap peels remember it's film forming not like oil FYI. That crap BM was pushing few years ago the Arborcoat waterborne and worse the clear coat junk. Nothing but problems. I'm all for easy and all for a great looking uniform finish I do allot of solid decks. But only cause no other option will work $$$$ wise. They will peel especially horizontals. We all luck out but I've seen many a PC wish they never saw that waterborne . Not saying your work isn't good or it doesn't look good it's not a oil so it forms a film...


Not trying to cause a fuss here, but I go against probably 95% of the people against this one. It is because the wood was not completely prepped correctly. And California Paints AND Pratt & Lambert say the same thing. No matter what you do as far as sanding or powerwashing to prep, if you are going to use a waterbased stain you absolutely MUST use a brightener before staining! AND it is an absolute must to use a premium stain line as opposed to a box store brand! They simply have not put the R&D into those product lines to make them perform properly! If you were to prep/brighten the wood per spec, the Cali storm Hybrid stain will out perform all box store waterbased stains and most oil based stains. If you were to read some of the internal information running around the paint companies these days, you would understand the turmoil that has struck in the last couple of years as the lumber industry has started using the current generations of treatments which REPEL waterbased stains as opposed to what was used 10-15 years ago that actually attracted waterbased stains to a certain extent. The new treatments have to be brightened to open the pores of the wood. It is absolutely critical to do this when using a waterbased stain! Powerwashing alone doesn't cut it for them any more. And even sanding with a coarse grit sandpaper will plug the pores with treated wood, and the stain has nothing to stick too.

All of the paint companies are aware of this, it's just a matter of how they wish to respond to it. Most won't, as they sell all the stain they can as it is. People are conditioned to think that deck stains will fail, so when it does they just take it in stride and shrug it off. Just put another coat of stain on it and it will be fine through the summer. That's all most people are concerned with. I used a dual dispersion stain on my deck when I built it 10 years ago and have only had to stain the horizontal surfaces once. Although they need another re-coat this summer. 4-5 years out of a water clean up alkyd stain is pretty good if you ask me. And at no time did it ever peel. It has just succumbed to the UV exposure which is to be expected.


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## tnw322 (Jun 6, 2016)

Try Diamabrush's new deck tooling. Started out with Wagner paint eater, the majority came off, but the diamabrush tooling brought it down to the bare wood. This deck had rust o leum's 10x and a coat of oil stain. Hope this helps.


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## tnw322 (Jun 6, 2016)

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

tnw322 said:


> Try Diamabrush's new deck tooling. Started out with Wagner paint eater, the majority came off, but the diamabrush tooling brought it down to the bare wood. This deck had rust o leum's 10x and a coat of oil stain. Hope this helps.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it takes that Rustoleum 10x stuff off it is definitely something worth looking into! What doesn't peel is a major pita to get off.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

PACman said:


> If it takes that Rustoleum 10x stuff off it is definitely something worth looking into! What doesn't peel is a major pita to get off.


We used the floor prep tool last month to remove asphalt adhesive from oak hardwood. Will use it in two weeks to prep two small offices floors for epoxy. Dimabrush has some great removal and prep tools. All the way up to 16" for use on floor buffers.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I turned down a couple of deck jobs today. We don't do them unless we are doing the whole house. And we don't try to be heroes anymore. Did one last fall that was huge, broke my own rule of not doing it since we weren't doing the house, took several cleanings plus renting a floor sander. So much work! Ended up using BM alkyd semi solid stain, their "Classic" line now. Looked great when we were done, but decks are just a lot of work. I'm going for the easy houses now. Call me crazy, but as one of the guys who first trained me said "sometimes painting is easy, sometimes hard". Trying to make it more easy, more profitable, more predictable. As PressurePros said, us stubborn people have had to learn this lesson over and over again. Trying to stick to it this year...wish me luck!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> I turned down a couple of deck jobs today. We don't do them unless we are doing the whole house. And we don't try to be heroes anymore. Did one last fall that was huge, broke my own rule of not doing it since we weren't doing the house, took several cleanings plus renting a floor sander. So much work! Ended up using BM alkyd semi solid stain, their "Classic" line now. Looked great when we were done, but decks are just a lot of work. I'm going for the easy houses now. Call me crazy, but as one of the guys who first trained me said "sometimes painting is easy, sometimes hard". Trying to make it more easy, more profitable, more predictable. As PressurePros said, us stubborn people have had to learn this lesson over and over again. Trying to stick to it this year...wish me luck!


Decks are extremely labor intensive to prep and coat, that's why they never get done correctly. And when you add in the fact that even the best coating you can use has a very limited life time.....well in all honesty I don't understand how any painting contractor can make a dime off of doing them properly. Wood just isn't intended to be used for decks and provide a long term "look". Even treated wood is mainly intended to be structural and not decorative. This is why it kind of scares me when people buy Storm stains. Sometimes I get the impression that they think because it is a premium stain line they don't have to do the prep correctly. That's why it is so important for me to talk to each customer and make sure they know the limitations of deck staining. If they are just looking for a yes man or woman to just sell them a gallon of stain and shut up about the prep then they have plenty of other places to buy stain.

After they get tired of the crappy results they get, then they'll be back. This is kind of the mentality that a quality contractor has to take. If he can't make money because his client doesn't want him to the job correctly he is usually better served just to pass on that job.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

tnw322 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Does it leave any swirl pattern? Does it have to be sanded after?


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## tnw322 (Jun 6, 2016)

There is a slight swirl pattern, but it's worth it for how quickly it rips coatings off and gets you to good wood!


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## junker1 (Jun 7, 2016)

Good morning. I have a deck that is covered in the deck over product. the horizontals are shot and I will be flipping them over. the verticals and bench seats are in great shape and I want to just go over those with a different product. Can I just use a water based product on those verticals? I usually use SW when I do paint.




steven mendez
western maine pressure washing
www.westernmainepressurewashing.com


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

junker1 said:


> Good morning. I have a deck that is covered in the deck over product. the horizontals are shot and I will be flipping them over. the verticals and bench seats are in great shape and I want to just go over those with a different product. Can I just use a water based product on those verticals? I usually use SW when I do paint.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to the not so helpful Behr technical service people, you can "fix" the deckover by applying a coat of solid acrylic stain. Sounds like a yes to me. Other then completely stripping it, it's probably the only option.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

I also gave up doing decks a few years ago. I used to do them all the time but in my opinion, deck coatings were a much product years ago. I could get a few years from all the decks I did in the past. Today your lucky to get one year out of todays product. Only true oil decking products have been steller in the past. You can keep your waterborne stains, they are the worst. They lay on the surface rather than penetrate into the wood. Worst product for decks IMO. Just like paint products today. Few have improved, but many are not a good as they were in the past.


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## junker1 (Jun 7, 2016)

IMO I believe that the penetrating non drying oils work best for deck boards. The problem I find is that the consumer does not want to maintain these deck boards. They call me and expect that after 12 years of neglect I can come in and whip it into shape for 1200 dollars.

I try and tell the customers that all wood needs maintenance and that without some protection it will fail. I try and explain that if they want their wood to look good year after year then there is a maintenance cost involved. But of course that is the last thing they want to hear.


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

PACman said:


> Not trying to cause a fuss here, but I go against probably 95% of the people against this one. It is because the wood was not completely prepped correctly. And California Paints AND Pratt & Lambert say the same thing. No matter what you do as far as sanding or powerwashing to prep, if you are going to use a waterbased stain you absolutely MUST use a brightener before staining! AND it is an absolute must to use a premium stain line as opposed to a box store brand! They simply have not put the R&D into those product lines to make them perform properly! If you were to prep/brighten the wood per spec, the Cali storm Hybrid stain will out perform all box store waterbased stains and most oil based stains. If you were to read some of the internal information running around the paint companies these days, you would understand the turmoil that has struck in the last couple of years as the lumber industry has started using the current generations of treatments which REPEL waterbased stains as opposed to what was used 10-15 years ago that actually attracted waterbased stains to a certain extent. The new treatments have to be brightened to open the pores of the wood. It is absolutely critical to do this when using a waterbased stain! Powerwashing alone doesn't cut it for them any more. And even sanding with a coarse grit sandpaper will plug the pores with treated wood, and the stain has nothing to stick too.
> 
> All of the paint companies are aware of this, it's just a matter of how they wish to respond to it. Most won't, as they sell all the stain they can as it is. People are conditioned to think that deck stains will fail, so when it does they just take it in stride and shrug it off. Just put another coat of stain on it and it will be fine through the summer. That's all most people are concerned with. I used a dual dispersion stain on my deck when I built it 10 years ago and have only had to stain the horizontal surfaces once. Although they need another re-coat this summer. 4-5 years out of a water clean up alkyd stain is pretty good if you ask me. And at no time did it ever peel. It has just succumbed to the UV exposure which is to be expected.


 @PACman, this has been the most valuable information I've received yet on waterborne stain. I've referenced this a couple times since there is a lot to digest in this one post. I refused to believe that all water based stains were garbage. You filled in the gaps for me. Thank you.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

PACman said:


> Not trying to cause a fuss here, but I go against probably 95% of the people against this one. It is because the wood was not completely prepped correctly. And California Paints AND Pratt & Lambert say the same thing. No matter what you do as far as sanding or powerwashing to prep, if you are going to use a waterbased stain you absolutely MUST use a brightener before staining! AND it is an absolute must to use a premium stain line as opposed to a box store brand! They simply have not put the R&D into those product lines to make them perform properly! If you were to prep/brighten the wood per spec, the Cali storm Hybrid stain will out perform all box store waterbased stains and most oil based stains. If you were to read some of the internal information running around the paint companies these days, you would understand the turmoil that has struck in the last couple of years as the lumber industry has started using the current generations of treatments which REPEL waterbased stains as opposed to what was used 10-15 years ago that actually attracted waterbased stains to a certain extent. The new treatments have to be brightened to open the pores of the wood. It is absolutely critical to do this when using a waterbased stain! Powerwashing alone doesn't cut it for them any more. And even sanding with a coarse grit sandpaper will plug the pores with treated wood, and the stain has nothing to stick too.
> 
> All of the paint companies are aware of this, it's just a matter of how they wish to respond to it. Most won't, as they sell all the stain they can as it is. People are conditioned to think that deck stains will fail, so when it does they just take it in stride and shrug it off. Just put another coat of stain on it and it will be fine through the summer. That's all most people are concerned with. I used a dual dispersion stain on my deck when I built it 10 years ago and have only had to stain the horizontal surfaces once. Although they need another re-coat this summer. 4-5 years out of a water clean up alkyd stain is pretty good if you ask me. And at no time did it ever peel. It has just succumbed to the UV exposure which is to be expected.



Any tips on how to not have lap marks with the Storm Hybrid? That is my only problem with it and I can't seem to avoid it. Had 1 contractor tell me he just does 2 coats, storm rep said to add some water to the product or mist the deck with a pump sprayer prior to coating. 

Any better advice than that?


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

@PACman Any advice on above?


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

Flip the boards next time 


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hines Painting said:


> @PACman Any advice on above?


From what I understand it might need to be thinned a little bit. And the surface temperature might be a little high. Also if the wood moisture content is a little high it may not absorb evenly and you may get some lap marks where it doesn't absorb well.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

I've used a wood brightner on my deck work for years. We have restored a boatload of decks tried many products . I stand by what my experience has shown. Water based deck stains are the worst
And again you may luck out.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> I've used a wood brightner on my deck work for years. We have restored a boatload of decks tried many products . I stand by what my experience has shown. Water based deck stains are the worst
> And again you may luck out.


I swear by a GOOD brightener! I've done some testing with many S/T stains with and without using a brightener. The difference in penetration may or may not be as noticeable as people think it should be, but the difference in how deeper the stain penetrates and how much more uniform the stain "takes" is quite noticeable. Of course the actual quality of the stain makes a big difference. I've done test boards with and without brightener with some Armstrong and Clark stains and it makes a big difference in the final appearance with them.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I've never had a problem with Flood SWF Solid Stain. I always try to talk people out of spending a ton of money on a deck floor restoration even though I've never had a complaint about Flood Stain which I've used the last 10-12 years. I did my own front balcony deck with it 6 years ago and it is still in mint condition. The boards were pressure treated lumber which I left exposed for a year before staining. I live in Canada, and the winters can be harsh! Maybe Flood stain is different in the hotter climates.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

y u no use emeralds?


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## AngieM (Apr 13, 2016)

This is the most efficient way to mechanically strip that top layer of wood.


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## jackaustin (Jul 12, 2021)

Hello.
Is there a way when you're editing a deck to add one or more cards of a particular card that's already in your deck without first having to search or filter for it then clicking on it? For example say I have 3 Shocks in a deck and want to add a fourth, without having to type Shock in the search box or using the advanced function to limit the displayed cards to red instants. I know this is trivial, but I usually play with a wireless mouse using a laptop connected to the TV and the keyboard is not right at hand. I have a wireless keyboard, but that would mean opening the drawer, pulling out the keyboard, turning it on, and typing something, which is not feasible as this tends to disturb the dog that is usually asleep in my lap... I sense a first-world problem meme here...

Just wondering as I aspire to be as lazy as possible in all things.


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