# White Seams



## salmangeri (Sep 13, 2008)

I have a quick question for you. I am installing heavy paper backed vinyl. The surface is dark and the seams are all showing up white. I tried painting the seams but that didn't work as it usually does for me. I was told
 coat the edge in the roll before it's installed with shoe polish. The kind that comes with a sponge applicator. What would you do? 

Sal


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

Are you sure it isn't an overlap/splice paper?

If not then have you tried rolling the edges with an edge roller? Some papers recommend that you color the edges with crayon before hanging (I hate them, shouldn't have to do it).

There's also the possibility it's faulty. Sometimes the edges are wavy (they meet then they gape/meet and gape/meet and gape which shows up the joints bad. Lay in flat on the table edge to edge and check it.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Here's an email I sent to Sal, others may learn someting from it:

Sal,

A) I would NOT, NOT, as in NOT use shoe polish . I can't even begin to tell you the number of problems I have with that.

B) many of us have found that gouache, "Goo-Ash" (rhymes with "squash"), works well. You can find "acceptable" quality at A C Moore. Mix a color to match the paper surface and apply to bolt ends - with bolts wound tightly. 

Correctly mixed gouache can also be rubbed into already laid seams and excess wiped off surface. 

there are many other applications, methods, and information about gouache that can be best described by other members of the NGPP

-bill


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> There's also the possibility it's faulty. Sometimes the edges are wavy (they meet then they gape/meet and gape/meet and gape which shows up the joints bad. Lay in flat on the table edge to edge and check it.


Pete,

Back in 2003, a guild member once brought a Farrow and Ball to a convention that she could NOT get acceptable seams with. We all at the convention tried as best we could - and not even the great and honorable installers from the great state of GA :whistling2: could make it good. We thought they were slightly scalloped, but could not see it. The edges felt only slightly rough. 

I finally trimmed about 1/126 off the edges and it seamed PERFECTLY. Turns out they *WERE* slightly scalloped just couldn't see it . Point is, sometimes scalloped seams are not noticeable.


Yes, as much as I love F&B, even they ship malodorous paper once in awhile.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I've never heard of or thought of that being used. I suppose it makes sense and it's not expensive stuff either. The only fear I have with paint-based (and shoe polish lol) fixes for seams is that they may stain the face of the paper (non vinyls). I suppose a test on a scrap would be in order before diving in.

I'll have to give that a go sometime. :thumbsup:


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

daArch said:


> Point is, sometimes scalloped seams are not noticeable.


Right enough. I've had more than my fair share. It's actually getting really bad here for it. Faulty paper is becoming an every day occurrence in this part of the world. I'd really like to meet up with some of the guys who run these companies and give em some advice. My own view is that they know that a large portion (maybe the bulk of) sales go to DIY so the percentage of returns they get is comparitively minimal. 


Like you say, sometimes you just can't tell. The manufacturers stick their get-out clause in too by saying they won't entertain any claims if more than 3 lengths are hung. There's a heck of a lot of papers show up like bad seams (and shading but that's another story) until they dry out. That's just how it is but when they dry it's fine - So, the manufacturers want you to hang 3 lengths and if the seams look dodgy, you go home until the next day and see how they'e dried. Yeah right. 

Another gripe with paper is why don't they start the pattern at the same point on each roll? That's just another way of selling more paper than required. Some rolls I get 4 lengths out of and others I get 3. They know that but never do anything about it. It aint in their interest to is it? Bahh humbug it's getting late here, i must be getting tired and grumpy lol


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> Right enough. I've had more than my fair share. It's actually getting really bad here for it. Faulty paper is becoming an every day occurrence in this part of the world. I'd really like to meet up with some of the guys who run these companies and give em some advice. My own view is that they know that a large portion (maybe the bulk of) sales go to DIY so the percentage of returns they get is comparitively minimal.
> 
> 
> Like you say, sometimes you just can't tell. The manufacturers stick their get-out clause in too by saying they won't entertain any claims if more than 3 lengths are hung. There's a heck of a lot of papers show up like bad seams (and shading but that's another story) until they dry out. That's just how it is but when they dry it's fine - So, the manufacturers want you to hang 3 lengths and if the seams look dodgy, you go home until the next day and see how they'e dried. Yeah right.
> ...


Did you ever hear why the NGPP was formed by a bunch of grumpy young men? You just najme some reasons. And see how far we've come 

How about this famous line: "this is the first time we've heard that complaint"
My reply is, well this ain't the first time I've made this complaint nor heard that weak lame-ass reply.


One Boston Chapt member, when he heard that no other installer had problems, replied, "can you give me the name of ONE installer who hung this without a problem?"

One guy scrawled his name on the back of a defective roll and shipped it back. A few weeks later he received a replacement with a different lot number, and sonofabitch, if his name weren't scrawled on the back. 

One manufacturer's rep told us a little secret, their mantra is, "keep shipping it until it don't come back"

Next time you get any sh!t from the manufacturer, remember these stories.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TooledUp said:


> The only fear I have with paint-based (and shoe polish lol) fixes for seams is that they may stain the face of the paper (non vinyls). I suppose a test on a scrap would be in order before diving in.
> 
> I'll have to give that a go sometime. :thumbsup:


NO DON'T TRY SHOE POLISH (I think it's called Polish for a reason - as in a heteronym)

It WILL stain the suface and it's a WAX.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Gouache is water soluable and will clean off most sufaces


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

daArch said:


> NO DON'T TRY SHOE POLISH


I've heard of some stoopid fixes but that's gotta be one of the dumbest suggestions I've heard to date.It's gotta be up there with the toothpaste :thumbup:

I know that, a long time ago, some people used to use flour and water as a paste over here. It's amazing that they never clicked what was wrong when the mice started eating the wallpaper.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

and not even the great and honorable installers from the great state of GA :whistling2: could make it good.

I am betting none of them will ever see that quote,especially the more vocal one of the bunch,or you would have head a response by now.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

chrisn said:


> and not even the great and honorable installers from the great state of GA :whistling2: could make it good.
> 
> I am betting none of them will ever see that quote,especially the more vocal one of the bunch,or you would have head a response by now.


Yah I know, that was just so Pete, you, Tim, and any others would know of whom I was speaking. I believe that KL and Murph had a whack at it. Seriously NO ONE could make Carolyn's seams good, until I took a c-hair off. 

Pete,

I used wheat paste exclusively from '72 until '80 - when I finally discovered pre-mixes - GH-34, which was actually a manufactured wheat paste, and an acceptable substitute to your "tub paste" as Cole & Son advised. Wheat paste is still one of my faves, for certain papers. You've heard others talk about mixing wheat and clay. It's still very much used. 

In days gone by, they also put molasases in the wheat paste to make it stickier. Now THAT was a silver fish feast.

Few years ago, I put some rolled oats in my coffee grinder and ground it into a fine flour. Mixed it with water and heated (just like the old timers did with wheat flour the nite before hanging) and damn if it didn't make a very aggressive paste. I pasted a couple of pieces of paper to a window as a test for adhesion. Three years later those pieces are still stuck.


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

daArch said:


> Pete,
> 
> I used wheat paste exclusively from '72 until '80 - when I finally discovered pre-mixes - GH-34, which was actually a manufactured wheat paste


I used to really love a hot water starch paste named LAP. They only seem to make it in a cold water version nowdays. The cold water stuff is still really great stuff though. It's got great adhesion and have never had any problems with it peeling or non sticky edges. Probably the best packet paste on the market over here.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Interesting 

I just did a product data search and found this:

http://www.icipaints.co.uk/files/pdf/datasheets/TDS6741.pdf

It is "Methyl cellulose with synthetic resin additives"

as we know, cellulose is not a particularly strong paste, maybe those "synthetic resins" give it a little boost.

Many on this side of the pond have been pleased with powdered potato starch paste - Ecofix P7 . Distributed here by Roos International. I think it's out of Sweden or some other Vodka drinking country


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

I'm not really up to scratch on the technical details of pastes but I'd guess you were correct about the resins. I know it's got excellent bonding properties and is nice to work with. The hot water version (imho) was slightly better but it still comes out on top. If I see it on the shelf then I buy it. If not then I tend to go for the regular polycell or solvite packet paste.

Just a footnote. Polycell paste (not the LAP, I think they purchased LAP quite recently) used to be absolute shee'ite. It was lumpy, gave virtually no adhesion and brushed on badly. Now it is one of the better pastes.


----------

