# 8 Hour Day - $550 includes (3 Painters)



## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

I was taking to a painting contractor in my area. I stopped him in Walmart, because he was wearing painters pants while x-mas shopping. Nice honest guy in his late 40‘s.

He told me that he had (2) painters working for him year-round (50% from a GC). I asked him how he charges and what his exact formula was for pricing. Here we go, you are going to love this, not making this up:

He stated, “I pay both of my guys $150 per day (1099), and I want to make $250 for myself, totaling $550 for the 3 of us". I then mark-up the paints, and if the job is a $1,500 job, I add $300 profit“ on top. Says he is just getting by. He also stated, “if you go much higher than that, you won’t get the job”.

He is Licensed and carries general liability (only). And his truck has magnet signs.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

PaintersUnite said:


> I was taking to a painting contractor in my area. I stopped him in Walmart, because he was wearing painters pants while x-mas shopping. Nice honest guy in his late 40‘s.
> 
> He told me that he had (2) painters working for him year-round (50% from a GC). I asked him how he charges and what his exact formula was for pricing. Here we go, you are going to love this, not making this up:
> 
> ...


WHERE in CT? Windham? Certainly NOT any closer to civilization.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

he probably up chrages like no tomorrow


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Imho. He is just pry one of the guys who is happy taking home 35k a year an saying hes self employed. The simple life ya know sometimes i wonder if that would be the route to go.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

bryceraisanen said:


> Imho. He is just pry one of the guys who is happy taking home 35k a year an saying hes self employed. The simple life ya know sometimes i wonder if that would be the route to go.



Yeah can't knock somebody for that ... They found a piece of wealth that others spend their lives searching for in all the wrong places


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## Sustainable in OR. (Dec 30, 2010)

Is he receiving some other form of payment from a private pension or compensation from a public source?
Just wondering how legit this operation really is based upon the prices and figures as they seem a bit low and unrealistic for full time, year around work for a 3 person operation???


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

If he is busy full time he's grossing $62,500 + his paint markup + his random profit add-ons. Which mean's hes probably pushing $65-70k. I know people that live comfortably off of a lot less. And if his costs really are just his truck, insurance and a phone with absolutely no advertising, he's certainly not going to be struggling unless he's an addict of any form.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

It sounds likes he's misclassifying his employees as contractors and paying them only $18.75/ hour, while billing out his projects at <$23.00/hr. Typical low-baller tactics. Good luck paying for your kids college or retiring off of that.


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## GR8painter (Dec 18, 2014)

If i have to run and cover for two other guys, I'd better be doing close to 100k or else I'm out. I'd be on my way to 100 without em.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Isn't this the average?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I cannot imagine a total stranger giving out all that info. I know I wouldn't


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## paladinpainter (Sep 10, 2014)

Seems like a good plan to me. He's working for himself and calling the shots. Making a living.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

chrisn said:


> I cannot imagine a total stranger giving out all that info. I know I wouldn't


Well, Chris, when you are out going and friendly, and you bump into another out going and friendly painter, share a little of your own info and experiences with him, and if you are bold enough to ask questions, you just may get the answers you are looking for. He and I also exchanged business cards. 

FYI - he wasn’t a total stranger, he and I have seen each other in paint stores and the local coffee shop quite a few times (just never talked).


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PaintersUnite said:


> Well, Chris, when you are out going and friendly, and you bump into another out going and friendly painter, share a little of your own info and experiences with him, and if you are bold enough to ask questions, you just may get the answers you are looking for. He and I also exchanged business cards.
> 
> FYI - he wasn’t a total stranger, he and I have seen each other in paint stores and the local coffee shop quite a few times (just never talked).




ok


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## Seattlepainting (Jun 8, 2010)

chrisn said:


> I cannot imagine a total stranger giving out all that info. I know I wouldn't


I speak to lecturing painter about every three months or so at an event or supplier.

Most of the painters I know well are charging $1400-$2100 for 24 man hours. We are at $1750; which sustains health insurance, vehicles, marketing and support staff.

big influencer is for pricing is market location. Large metropolitan areas such as NYC, SF, and Seattle sustain higher prices for higher top line and bring median higher.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

is that your Painttalk dvision ?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PaintersUnite said:


> Well, Chris, when you are out going and friendly, and you bump into another out going and friendly painter, share a little of your own info and experiences with him, and if you are bold enough to ask questions, you just may get the answers you are looking for. He and I also exchanged business cards.
> 
> FYI - he wasn’t a total stranger, he and I have seen each other in paint stores and the local coffee shop quite a few times (just never talked).


Aww... sounds like a budding bromance!


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Aww... sounds like a budding bromance!


 
yeah he was like ...........''bro if your ever in the area an need a place to crash i have hot tub'' 





:jester:


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

TJ Paint said:


> Aww... sounds like a budding bromance!


Her even called me today with a job he couldn't handle. He gave a builder my number (builder called). Small job.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

PaintersUnite said:


> Her even called me today with a job he couldn't handle. He gave a builder my number (builder called). Small job.


He probably doesn't like small jobs. You going to help him out?


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

It's not what you make...it's what you save . :thumbsup:


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

playedout6 said:


> It's not what you make...it's what you save . :thumbsup:


It's amazing how much you can make by not spending it!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

playedout6 said:


> It's not what you make...it's what you save . :thumbsup:


It's also how you prioritize. But unfortunately, society often encourages wants, as a priority, before needs.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> It's also how you prioritize. But unfortunately, society often encourages wants as a priority, before needs.


That often seems to backfire. What happens when you finally buy that McMansion and move in, only to discover that your HOA won't allow you to have your fully wrapped pickup?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Bought a condo once. Had no idea that you couldn't leave your car parked in the driveway overnite, had to be in the garage or in the parking area. And leaving your garage door open for any length of time was a big no-no. Sold it 10 months after I bought it. The final straw was going to the pool area and seeing nothing but old cellulite and varicose veins.


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## capn26 (Aug 17, 2014)

Not saying that this was the painter in the op's philosophy. I know a lot of small guys (like me) in my area who look at it like this. In my area, if you run a crew for a PC, you may be in the 14 an hour range. An hour west, commercial, maybe 18, but that's rare. And of course there are a few exceptions. But an average guy on a paint crew, it's 10-12. That's not much of a wage even on my part of the state. 

I'm working alone, small advertising/marketing. One vehicle. Insurance. Book keeper/CPA. But my own health/life insurance. Work as I want, which is all the time, but can take off at will when it counts. Best of all, pay my bills expenses, add a small profit to the books, and make more than tops what I would with another company. Not getting rich, but living well. 

I have plans for more, hell maybe this guy did too. And I don't go for the 1099 thing cuz I've been on the wrong end of that. But 40-45k, steady profit in the business, sometimes that's enough. Very, very few people succeed long even at that game.


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## capn26 (Aug 17, 2014)

Sorry, that was pretty disjointed. I have a family medical issue that has my mind in knots so forgive me. I guess my point was, knock the guy for what he's doing wrong, ie the 1099 classification. But what money someone's happy with is kind of a personal thing. Very similar to the reason people here won't touch prices. How can you know how much someone needs to make, and we say so often here that there is no market price, so if not, and he gets by on what he makes, the how is that a "low ball" price? And honestly, not many people around here make 150 a day on a crew either, so he's paying his guys a decent wage at least. Idk. I'm kinda glum. 

Mea maxima culpa.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

capn26 said:


> Sorry, that was pretty disjointed. I have a family medical issue that has my mind in knots so forgive me. I guess my point was, knock the guy for what he's doing wrong, ie the 1099 classification. But what money someone's happy with is kind of a personal thing. Very similar to the reason people here won't touch prices. How can you know how much someone needs to make, and we say so often here that there is no market price, so if not, and he gets by on what he makes, the how is that a "low ball" price? And honestly, not many people around here make 150 a day on a crew either, so he's paying his guys a decent wage at least. Idk. I'm kinda glum. Mea maxima culpa.


 I agree that nobody knows what one individual needs to make to be comfortable. Everybody has different ideas of the ideal lifestyle, and no two people are exactly alike. However, a lot of guys on here know how much one needs to charge to successfully build a business. $23/hr isn't going to accomplish that. The fact that this guy illegally pays his employees as independent contractors illustrates my point. He may keep busy and make a living, but he needs to break the law to even accomplish that.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Yeah how can you not be a low baller when some people out there take 40 hrs to paint a door?


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## capn26 (Aug 17, 2014)

Yeah, like I said, the 1099 thing sticks in my craw. Bad. 

And thanks for the chuckle ole. Those French doors are a bear.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> The fact that this guy illegally pays his employees as independent contractors illustrates my point. He may keep busy and make a living, but he needs to break the law to even accomplish that.


*And who can actually prove whether or not a worker is an employee or independent contractor?*

*Determining Whether the Individuals Providing Services are Employees or Independent Contractors*

Before you can determine how to treat payments you make for services, you must first know the business relationship that exists between you and the person performing the services. The person performing the services may be -


 An independent contractor 
 An employee (common-law employee) 
 A statutory employee 
 A statutory nonemployee 
 In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered.
*Common Law Rules*

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:


 Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job? 
 Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.) 
 Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business? 
 Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.
The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Usually it's the job of the criminal justice system to prove a crime is being committed. However, if the IRS or other taxing authorities believes you you owe them money, then it's up to you to prove that they are incorrect. In this case, the fact that they are all three painters, working together on various projects throughout the entire year would suggest to me that they should be classified as employees.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

If you work for ABC painting as a subcontractor, and all of your income is from ABC, are you an employee or sub?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Bought a condo once. Had no idea that you couldn't leave your car parked in the driveway overnite, had to be in the garage or in the parking area. And leaving your garage door open for any length of time was a big no-no. Sold it 10 months after I bought it. The final straw was going to the pool area and seeing nothing but old cellulite and varicose veins.


NOW, ten years later, what are your thoughts on those, 

"Look honey, OUR people are here" ???????

:laughing: :laughing:


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

matt19422 said:


> If you work for ABC painting as a subcontractor, and all of your income is from ABC, are you an employee or sub?


depends, if you have your own truck, your tools, your own insurance, and are paid by the job I say yes you are a sub,


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> The fact that this guy illegally pays his employees as independent contractors illustrates my point. He may keep busy and make a living, but he needs to break the law to even accomplish that.


It's pretty clear that he's using the "subcontractor dodge" for his employees. As that practice has become more widespread, most states have moved past the old common-law definition and use the so-called "ABC test".

Assuming that the outfit in question is in CT, here's the applicable information:

https://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/uitax/abctest.doc

A lot of guys think that 1099ing their help is all it takes. It's an expensive lesson when they learn otherwise.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

matt19422 said:


> If you work for ABC painting as a subcontractor, and all of your income is from ABC, are you an employee or sub?


Assuming you're in CT, it's pretty clear that you're a sub.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> Yeah how can you not be a low baller when some people out there take 40 hrs to paint a door?


Quote of the Month!


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Usually it's the job of the criminal justice system to prove a crime is being committed. However, if the IRS or other taxing authorities believes you you owe them money, then it's up to you to prove that they are incorrect. *In this case, the fact that they are all three painters, working together on various projects throughout the entire year would suggest to me that they should be classified as employees.*


The checks paid to workers and the 1099 issued to them, are your proof that the workers owe the IRS, not YOU the company.

*To reiterate:* Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another. 

*And who is all seeing and all knowing?*


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I agree that nobody knows what one individual needs to make to be comfortable. Everybody has different ideas of the ideal lifestyle, and no two people are exactly alike.* However, a lot of guys on here know how much one needs to charge to successfully build a business. $23/hr isn't going to accomplish that.* The fact that this guy illegally pays his employees as independent contractors illustrates my point. He may keep busy and make a living, but he needs to break the law to even accomplish that.


Yes, it theory guys know that. On paper we know that. To quote myself: He also stated, “if you go much higher than that, you won’t get the job”.

So I its not actually about being comfortable. It's more so about not believing he can stay busy charging more. No one wants to sit home from not closing the sale.

Come on, what painter do you know that doesn't want to be paid, as much as they can get?


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

Ole34 said:


> Yeah how can you not be a low baller when some people out there take 40 hrs to paint a door?


Sounds like a guy on our crew this past summer. he had the most experience out of the crew members. His excuse was he wanted his work to come out perfect. He was far from that. Yeah he was perfect at milking work. If and it's a big if we take him back it will not be on the books. he will be a sub and have to have his own insurance and submit bids to us. Take 40 hours to paint a door is fine with me as long as it's a sub doing it on a bid and not hourly.

Our accountant and lawyer are drafting up every thing we need to make sure we sub the work out the right way and not consider him an employee.

If his bids are to high like many of us he wont be working much.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Nice use of colored fonts and links "Joe"


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

ProWallGuy said:


> Nice use of colored fonts and links "Joe"


Thanks. And congrats on winning Paint Pro of the month. I hope your family enjoys the gift card. You got my vote. :thumbsup:

Happy Holidays.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

ProWallGuy said:


> Nice use of colored fonts and links "Joe"


 I know what you mean. And I agree 100%.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I know what you mean. And I agree 100%.


Pure copy and paste. Easy.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Usually it's the job of the criminal justice system to prove a crime is being committed. However, if the IRS or other taxing authorities believes you you owe them money, then it's up to you to prove that they are incorrect. In this case, the fact that they are all three painters, working together on various projects throughout the entire year would suggest to me that they should be classified as employees.


These days, it's generally been the state tax commissions/DOL/etc. that are more concerned with cracking down on the "subcontractor dodge", rather than the IRS. It's more about W/C and unemployment taxes.

Given the information we've been provided, I think most states would agree with you.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> These days, it's generally been the state tax commissions/DOL/etc. that are more concerned with cracking down on the "subcontractor dodge", rather than the IRS. It's more about W/C and unemployment taxes.
> 
> Given the information we've been provided, I think most states would agree with you.


If this is such an issue, that raises a fed flag, and puts the contractor at risk with the state tax commissions, why doucument payments with a check and issue a 1099 leaving a paper trail? Wouldn't it be safer for these contractors to just pay by cash? 

Like I said. "*Who is all seeing and all knowing?"* That is what an Accountant told me regarding the IRS.


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## capn26 (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't remember the exact date but the prez just issued 44 million dollars to help states track and pursue incorrectly qualified workers.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

capn26 said:


> I don't remember the exact date but the prez just issued 44 million dollars to help states track and pursue incorrectly qualified workers.


Sure, illegal immigrants coming over the border. However, proving that an independent (documented) contractor, is an employee? Slim chance anyone will blink an eye.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

capn26 said:


> I don't remember the exact date but the prez just issued 44 million dollars to help states track and pursue incorrectly qualified workers.


A quick search of "employee misclassification" ( the official term for "the subcontractor dodge"), turned up an article about the DOL giving 10 million to 19 states to crack down on the practice.

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Compensat...ee-misclassification-crackdown-DOL-shells-ou#


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> A quick search of "employee misclassification" ( the official term for "the subcontractor dodge"), turned up an article about the DOL giving 10 million to 19 states to crack down on the practice.
> 
> http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Compensat...ee-misclassification-crackdown-DOL-shells-ou#


Mr Gough, nice link. However, I believe the small painting contractor, employing only 2 guys, is safely flying under the radar.

These crack downs are targeting large corporations the size of, ie; Fedx, Comcast, UPS etc, more so than the little guy. The time and money it costs to investigate these matters, is not worth perusing the little guy.

The establishment wants you to fear them. And people like yourself, are doing exactly what they want, scare people.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Gough said:


> A quick search of "employee misclassification" ( the official term for "the subcontractor dodge"), turned up an article about the DOL giving 10 million to 19 states to crack down on the practice.
> 
> http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Compensat...ee-misclassification-crackdown-DOL-shells-ou#


Having a family member who has spent years trying to get right with the IRS and the state after they determined that he misckassified his *three * employees is enough to dampen my normally sanguine attitude.

As I've said before, it's a little like being struck by lightning: the odds aren't high, but it can certainly ruin your day.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

State Labor Depts are constantly looking at contractors for violations of the employee/sub claims

If your issuing 1099's and that sub is only submitting yours its a big red flag

ive been told by a rep of the NJ Dept of Labor that 75% of a subs income coming from one 1099 will deem them to be an employee of that issuer

It may take a few years but they will catch up- and then back date the violation

Ive seen it happen- not pretty


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Let me just make this clear, I am not promoting the sub contractor dodge in the least bit. Although, some here may assume that I am. 

As someone who was once an employee, I always valued being covered by workers comp, having the employer pay into SSI and unemployment benefits. Nuff-said.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Gough said:


> *Having a family member who has spent years trying to get right with the IRS* and the state after they determined that he misckassified his *three * employees is enough to dampen my normally sanguine attitude.
> 
> As I've said before, it's a little like being struck by lightning: the odds aren't high, but it can certainly ruin your day.


And I know a guy who worked cash for 20 years and didn't file a tax return those 20 years. On his 21st year, he went to work for Walmart and ended up filing because he wanted a tax refund. 

Long story short, he actually got a tax refund. I believe he told me $1,000 plus. True story.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

PaintersUnite said:


> *However, I believe the small painting contractor, employing only 2 guys, is safely flying under the radar.
> 
> These crack downs are targeting large corporations the size of, ie; Fedx, Comcast, UPS etc, more so than the little guy. The time and money it costs to investigate these matters, is not worth perusing the little guy.*


I would not agree with this statement- at least not here in NJ

what i think happens is the Dept of labor waits a few years and then come in and POW!

just my opinion


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DunriteNJ said:


> State Labor Depts are constantly looking at contractors for violations of the employee/sub claims
> 
> If your issuing 1099's and that sub is only submitting yours its a big red flag
> 
> ...


Still has to be proven. Can't penalize without an investigation. 

I know a guy who legitimately subbed from a painting contractor (ABC painting) year round, doing NC. This was 25 years ago, and I worked for this sub contractor painter (XYZ painting). XYZ painting, had approx 7 actual employees and paid all of us cash. Don't ask me how he pulled it off.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DunriteNJ said:


> I would not agree with this statement- at least not here in NJ
> 
> what *i think* happens is the Dept of labor waits a few years and then come in and POW!
> 
> just my opinion


Please provide proof? *I think* is just an opinion.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

You want proof- call me and ill provide you with my accountants# and a few contractors this happened to.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

What happens when one of these "subs" get hurt? I'll tell you, they get a lawyer and sue. Trust me, I'm somehow involved with a lawsuit right now because of this "sub" crap.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Briggs, next time have them sign one of these, and you just may have a leg to stand on. Click on this: INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR AGREEMENT


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Chances are, if your running the sub dodge that you are looking for other loopholes Aswell. 

Getting red flagged for any little thing could cause the gov to open up your books and send your whole empire crashing. 


Just saying most people are either corner cutters, or they aren't. So eventually it will usually catch up one way or another.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

People don't yet realize it. The obamacare. You know the book thick law that no one was really sure what was in there and gets implemented in steps over years.....
A lot of that 'book' are ways to collect tax that has been unpaid. 1099 is one of em. Status quo on that is gonna slowly change. 

I found out cause of the rentals, what I previously needed to write off doesn't do it now. No heavy hitter here. But I get audited and you did work for me and I wrote you off..,,,which I will....you better have reported. I got my documentation,


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> What happens when one of these "subs" get hurt? I'll tell you, they get a lawyer and sue. Trust me, I'm somehow involved with a lawsuit right now because of this "sub" crap.


Sorry, Briggs, I understand what a pain that can be. 

As an aside to those hoping to avoid similar problems, most states have held that having your "subs" sign an "independent contractor agreement" has no bearing on their classification as employees.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Remember the original 1099 misc reporting rules that were in obama care? They were crazy. 1099's would have to be sent to every gas station, store, website, etc that you purchased over a few hundred $ worthy of stuff from.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Gough said:


> Sorry, Briggs, I understand what a pain that can be.
> 
> As an aside to those hoping to avoid similar problems, most states have held that having your "subs" sign an "independent contractor agreement" has no bearing on their classification as employees.


Just to clarify I'm not involved by any wrong doing of my own. An idiot in Hilton Head SC was illegally using my name doing the sub dodge (he didn't pass the ABC test :no. No matter how many times I try explaining that I'm in no way involved it doesn't seem to matter. I'm gonna get a lawyer to straighten it out for me and possibly go after the guy using my name without my consent. 

Here's what you get when you do the sub dodge.

















BTW this will also happen if you have employees without workers comp.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> Briggs, next time have them sign one of these, and you just may have a leg to stand on. Click on this: INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR AGREEMENT


No thanks, when I do hire I'll do it legitimately.:yes:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Crap for some reason I thought this was in the BZ. I hope I blocked out everything I needed to.


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## DunriteNJ (Aug 15, 2014)

I have full time employees working year round with a few part time guys who are on the books as well. I run everything through ADP Payroll and carry WC on everybody who works for me.

Occasionally I do use a a few different subcontractors , who i know very well, for over flow stuff- maybe a job or 2 a month- i still manage the job. I only use a select few with whom i've known for years who know what they are doing and practice the same customer care standards i do.

I do think the sub contractor agreement has teeth-coupled with their COI and W9 I pull from them makes me feel pretty secure regarding their liability

Are you ever 100% safe- i don't think anyone is in the Contracting business if you are somewhat involved in the job- but ive never had an issue


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

PaintersUnite said:


> Yes, it theory guys know that. On paper we know that. To quote myself: He also stated, &#147;if you go much higher than that, you won&#146;t get the job&#148;. So I its not actually about being comfortable. It's more so about not believing he can stay busy charging more. No one wants to sit home from not closing the sale. Come on, what painter do you know that doesn't want to be paid, as much as they can get?


 That's a major misconception that most low-ballers fall prey to. If it were true, then how do you explain all the countless, successful businesses that are run legitimately? Low-ballers will always be stuck in the race to the bottom, picking up the scraps and filtered rejects of legitimately run companies who treat employees with respect and give them all the protections they deserve under the law. Merry Christmas everyone!!


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Crap for some reason I thought this was in the BZ. I hope I blocked out everything I needed to.


Don't worry.
I have just penned a letter to the honerable M. L. J. explaining exactly how you feel and what they can do with their rulin's

:jester:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Bender said:


> Don't worry.
> I have just penned a letter to the honerable M. L. J. explaining exactly how you feel and what they can do with their rulin's
> 
> :jester:


Hey the more the merrier I've penned a couple too. :jester:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Remember the original 1099 misc reporting rules that were in obama care? They were crazy. 1099's would have to be sent to every gas station, store, website, etc that you purchased over a few hundred $ worthy of stuff from.


I think they even predated ACA.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Just to clarify I'm not involved by any wrong doing of my own. *An idiot in Hilton Head SC was illegally using my name doing the sub dodge (he didn't pass the ABC test :no.* No matter how many times I try explaining that I'm in no way involved it doesn't seem to matter. I'm gonna get a lawyer to straighten it out for me and possibly go after the guy using my name without my consent.
> 
> Here's what you get when you do the sub dodge.
> 
> BTW this will also happen if you have employees without workers comp.


 A contractor used your company name? Or a worker used your name (Ryan Briggs)? Fraud going on here?

Is there a little more to the story than you are telling us? You are not involved in any wrong doing of your own?

You have me a little confused?


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> A contractor used your company name? Or a worker used your name (Ryan Briggs)? Fraud going on here?
> 
> Is there a little more to the story than you are telling us? You are not involved in any wrong doing of your own?
> 
> You have me a little confused?


A contractor used my company name and I blocked out the name of the worker that got injured so I can see the confusion. 

On the second photo it shows David Allen d/b/a Paragon Painting and a Hilton Head address. I have no idea who he is nor have I ever stepped foot in Hilton Head where this is has taken place.

I've called trying to tell them that but it's fallen upon deaf ears. I also tried to track down a Paragon Painting in Hilton Head on the Internet to speak to this David Allen myself but I've been coming up empty. I did find a phone number but when I called a dialysis center answered. :blink:

Legal chit isn't my forte and I thought just simple phone call would clear it up, apparently not, now I'm gonna have to get my own lawyer involved.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Rbriggs82 said:


> A contractor used my company name and I blocked out the name of the worker that got injured so I can see the confusion.
> 
> On the second photo it shows David Allen d/b/a Paragon Painting and a Hilton Head address. I have no idea who he is nor have I ever stepped foot in Hilton Head where this is has taken place.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that you are going through this. Court sucks.

It's probably not fraud. It sounds like another guy liked the name Paragon Painting and chose that for his company name. 

Before you get a lawyer involved, try actually calling and speaking to the judges secretary. Tell her that this is a case of mistaken identity and ask if you can speak to the judge.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

PaintersUnite said:


> Sorry to hear that you are going through this. Court sucks.
> 
> It's probably not fraud. It sounds like another guy liked the name Paragon Painting and chose that for his company name.
> 
> Before you get a lawyer involved, try actually calling and speaking to the judges secretary. Tell her that this is a case of mistaken identity and ask if you can speak to the judge.


Good idea, I'll give it a try on Monday. I need out of this before they require me to waste my time and appear in court. :yes:


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## Savdog01 (Aug 28, 2012)

Just my thoughts.

If the irs or any other government agency sits down with your "subcontractor" and tells them all the money they owe as a subcontractor for you and that if they were an employee, that they would not owe the money because you, as their employer, should have paid it on your behalf, how many of them would argue to protect you you?....NONE of them.

They will say. I got paid $x per hour, payday was every Friday, i rode in his van, did what he said, when he said it. Blah blah blah.

Then you're busted whether you have any agreements signed or not. You can't have someone sign a paper basically saying you can't be held responsible for breaking the law.


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## shinehound (Dec 1, 2014)

A number of years ago I was obliged to fill out a questionnaire from the state L&I office, and based on me answering a couple questions, they decided to do an audit of my jobs and employee numbers for the year. They decided that even though my friend who I gave a 1099 to was licensed contractor, the fact that his pay related to the number of hours he worked meant he should have been an employee- and they charged me back L&I wages, plus interest and penalties. Luckily, it was only like 100 hours worth of work over the course of a year so the sting wasn't too bad but I learned my lesson about short term gains in that arena. It was the first year I issued a 1099 to anyone- so either I got unlucky or WA is on top of things.


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

Savdog01 said:


> Just my thoughts.
> 
> If the irs or any other government agency sits down with your "subcontractor" and tells them all the money they owe as a subcontractor for you and that if they were an employee, that they would not owe the money because you, as their employer, should have paid it on your behalf, how many of them would argue to protect you you?....NONE of them.


An employer doesn’t pay your taxes, your taxes are withheld by the employer, then the employer sends your withheld taxes to the IRS.

If the sub/employee or whatever he may be, received any form of non-tax withheld pay/payment, whether he be a legitimate sub or not, the payee would still owe the tax on monies they received. Not the contractor. Federal law and state law are two completely different animals. 



Savdog01 said:


> They will say. I got paid $x per hour, payday was every Friday, i rode in his van, did what he said, when he said it. Blah blah blah.


The IRS would say, that is none of our concern, however, getting the taxes that you owe us is. They would ask you, "did you receive $20,000 paid to you by the contractor?" If your answer is *yes*, they would say, "then this $____ is what *YOU* owe in taxes". 



Savdog01 said:


> Then you're busted whether you have any agreements signed or not. You can't have someone sign a paper basically saying you can't be held responsible for breaking the law.


Guess what, you don’t have to work as a sub if you don’t want to. The choice is your as well as the contractors. It take two to tango.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The irs makes sure that the 1099 person pays his personal taxes on the 20k. If they rule he was an employee, then they have the company pay unemployment taxes (fed), the business side of social security and Medicare. On the state side, workmans company and unemployment apply.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> The irs makes sure that the 1099 person pays his personal taxes on the 20k. If they rule he was an employee, then they have the company pay unemployment taxes (fed), the business side of social security and Medicare. On the state side, workmans company and unemployment apply.


Not to mention fines and interest....


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## PaintersUnite (May 11, 2014)

DeanV said:


> The irs makes sure that the 1099 person pays his personal taxes on the 20k. *If they rule he was an employee*, then they have the company pay unemployment taxes (fed), the business side of social security and Medicare. On the state side, workmans company and unemployment apply.


Who has the authority to do a ruling, 


an IRS worker?
state worker?
a judge in a court of law?
And what triggers an investigation to begin with?


Workers comp claim?
Someone reports the contractor?
I don't believe an investigation happens by random chance. 

I do believe, that if a contractor pays 20k to a painter, and the painter gets his 1099 and pays his taxes, no IRS or state official will raise and eye brow. There are too many people in this world, for the IRS or state to keep track of. 

Also, what is personal tax?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

PaintersUnite said:


> Who has the authority to do a ruling,
> 
> 
> an IRS worker?
> ...


I believe he was referring to income tax.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm amazed at the investment that some put into topics that don't exist...


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't think. No I know. The guy that made 20 k that year painting,,,,,he didn't put aside his percent of income tax every week. Claim his earnings. And pay at the end of the year. He spent that money. All of it. 

Back when one guy told me. The easiest thing to not pay is income tax, cause they don't shut off, evict, or repossess anything, lol. True.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Al Sharpton would know about that.


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## TKbrush (Dec 30, 2014)

The 3 painters business model seems to work well from what i have seen. Sometimes the owners are not painting, or painting part time. Its the most versatile i guess. Then you see crews of 5 and there you have the ability to work jobs simultaneously, better for ext work, etc. I've heard from a few business owners that crews of 8 to 10 are very difficult to manage at that point. I'm sure it varies regionally, its what i've seen northeast/southeast basically.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

6 guys was always my favorite number. We had them in 3 crews of 2 pushing out 3 jobs simultaneously. We also had the flexibility to team them up on larger jobs while keeping another crew of two doing something else. With the right guys it wasn't too encumbersome to manage either.


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