# Problems with Advance



## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I have a small cabinet shop and for the last few years I've been painting the cabinets with PPG's Breakthrough! 250 VOC. I had good results and I liked the quick dry times. 

However, the local PPG store was not able to endure the Pandemic and closed down. I recently tried Advance over 123 primer and got good results (very nice results). 

However when I did a bathroom's worth of cabinets the other day (dark green) over Sealcoat I ended up with a texture on the MDF panels that give the appearance of painting over open-grain oak. All the grain is in a horizontal direction. The poplar parts of the shaker cabinet doors look fine. Just the center panel in 1/4" thick MDF has this texture.

I am going to sand this lightly today and apply some 123 and try again. 

Any idea why I am getting this "grain" pattern?


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I have always found that mdf needs to be oil primed or lacquer undercoater. Waterbased products seem to swell it up and cause issues.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I do know some have used gardz on it with good results but I have no experience doing that


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Sealcoat is shellac and would not normally cause problems with MDF. Usually, I find that MDF takes paint well, except in machined (milled) surfaces where it has to be sealed before using water-based paints. In the past I've used Sealcoat for that sealing. 

Also, should I get a separate gun for primers? I am using HVLP 4-stage from Sprayfine and I am using the included 25-foot hose that came with the kit, and the factory supplied gun with a 1.3mm projector.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Don't put shellac and latex through the same equipment. Or oil, for that matter.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Masterwork,

Thanks for the reply. The Advance is water-based and Zinser's 1-2-3 is also. So that is OK for one gun?


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

I didnt realize seal coat was shellac. That would work. My only thought is if when you sanded you burned through it and let water from advanced get back there. If it was me I would sand it well. Spray some coverstain, and than lightly sand or not if not needed and spray advanced.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> Masterwork,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. The Advance is water-based and Zinser's 1-2-3 is also. So that is OK for one gun?


Don't bother with 123. Use 046 or 1WB.200 undercoater, works great on MDF.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Thanks everyone. I will put down some 1-2-3, lightly sand and re-spray with Advance.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> 1WB.200 undercoater





cocomonkeynuts said:


> Don't bother with 123. Use 046 or 1WB.200 undercoater, works great on MDF.


I just looked both of these up. The Duralac (1WB.200) says that all spray equipment must be 100% stainless steel. My cup is made from aluminum.

The 046 (Fresh Start) does not have that same warning. I called my dealer and they have it in stock. I will try that


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I just looked both of these up. The Duralac (1WB.200) says that all spray equipment must be 100% stainless steel. My cup is made from aluminum.
> 
> The 046 (Fresh Start) does not have that same warning. I called my dealer and they have it in stock. I will try that


Aluminum is fine, they mean opposed to some lacquer equipment that is regular steel


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

OK. thanks for that information.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I would spray the Advance with an airless. I have never had good results from an hvlp. Got any pics of your problem?


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I'm a cabinet maker. Unlike most painters, I don't need a large skill-set. I just have to know how to paint cabinets. Which I could do when I used PPG's Breakthrough! I only have the HVLP sprayer. 

No pictures because I laid down some 1-2-3 and put down the first coat of Advance which looks fine. I will add a second coat today. 

It seems that Advance does not like the shellac over MDF. It seemed fine over the poplar. 

I don't like to have the first coat as a waterborne finish as it can raise the grain. So it seems like Sealcoat + primer + finish. 

I use pre-finished (one side) plywood, so the interiors of my cabinets don't need to be finished. Just the exteriors. 

I just recently added Euro-cabinets to my line. They have no face frames. I am still struggling to figure an efficient way to mask these. Most of the cabinets only need the narrow faces to be coated. The sides of most of these are hidden.

I also sell these unfinished, and the installer has them sprayed on-site. 

At any rate, thanks for the assistance.

Forgot to mention. I was color-matching S-W "Shamrock" and I went over grey 1-2-3. I had a brand new can of this in the shop. I will try the Duralac WB.200 once this runs out.

Best Regards,

Packard


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I'm a cabinet maker. Unlike most painters, I don't need a large skill-set. I just have to know how to paint cabinets. Which I could do when I used PPG's Breakthrough! I only have the HVLP sprayer.
> 
> No pictures because I laid down some 1-2-3 and put down the first coat of Advance which looks fine. I will add a second coat today.
> 
> ...


the duralaq primer doesn't really raise the grain on MDF and sprays great from hvlp unthinned
BM has a new paint similar to breakthrough available maybe sometime in the next months


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Duralaq is fine with an HVLP? Well now I definitely need to try it.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> Duralaq is fine with an HVLP? Well now I definitely need to try it.


sprays fine from a 4 stage graco edge2plus and 1.3 tip


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I will try to get to my Benjamin Moore dealer today. Using Durolac and skipping Sealcoat will save me quite a bit of labor. 
Unthinned? I have to thin the Advance. I will try that. (I also have a 1.3 tip and 4-stage from Sprayfine. I don't know how much difference the manufacturer makes with these sprayers.)


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I will try to get to my Benjamin Moore dealer today. Using Durolac and skipping Sealcoat will save me quite a bit of labor.
> Unthinned? I have to thin the Advance. I will try that. (I also have a 1.3 tip and 4-stage from Sprayfine. I don't know how much difference the manufacturer makes with these sprayers.)


Not sure other than the edge2plus gun is pressurized so its easier to spray thick material. The duralaq primer is very heavy (weight) but the viscosity is designed for spray application. do not attempt to brush the primer.


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I just looked up the Edge II Plus gun. At $504.00 (Amazon.com) it costs as much as my entire HVLP system cost. Is it really worth all that money?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I just looked up the Edge II Plus gun. At $504.00 (Amazon.com) it costs as much as my entire HVLP system cost. Is it really worth all that money?


I like the graco turbine but I really don't care for the edge2 gun bottom mounted design. Apollo or fuji makes a better gun. Fuji with the top mounted PPS cup is pretty nice.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Packard said:


> I just looked up the Edge II Plus gun. At $504.00 (Amazon.com) it costs as much as my entire HVLP system cost. Is it really worth all that money?


Definitely NOT worth $504. Apollo has the A7700T which can be connected to turbine, compressor, or pressure pot, produces an even finer finish than the Edge II Plus gun, and does it for $200 cheaper.

Apollo A7700T


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

I just came from the Benjamin Moore store. They don’t stock WB200, and the clerk did not recognize the name. He looked it up and will order it for me. I am just trying out one gallon. Is $36.50/ gallon the going price for this primer?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Packard said:


> I just came from the Benjamin Moore store. They don’t stock WB200, and the clerk did not recognize the name. He looked it up and will order it for me. I am just trying out one gallon. Is $36.50/ gallon the going price for this primer?


36 is way too much I sell it for $20-25/gallon... maybe thats including their cost plus UPS shipping or maybe they quoated yout he price of top coat by mistake (1wb.100)?.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

You probably answered this elsewhere, but how does it handle tannins?


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## Packard (May 2, 2018)

Has anyone tried Behr's 100% acrylic primer for glossy surfaces? It is the only 100% acrylic primer I seem to be able to get on a moment's notice. $23.00 per gallon.


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