# SW ProClassic PIA



## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

Hi all. Curious to hear some opinions on what might be going on with my mdf seeming to “raise” all over once I applied SW Pro Classic.

The preparation of the mdf pre paint was a multi step process. First I used SW sparkling paste to fill the holes and dings. I then went over the nail holes and any imperfections with spot putty (red stuff). After that I vaccummed everything, tack clothed everything and lastly I shot everything with a 211 trim from a Graco X9.

What I got as a final product frustrated the 💩 out of me. I got a finished product that looked like someone had some texture overspray that landed on the finish. I’ve used PC many years ago so maybe I’m painfully relearning the paint. However I’ve never seen anything like this. 

Note—I didn’t shot the trim with primer before painting. Just didn’t think I needed to, maybe wrongful so.

Any thoughts/advice is appreciated.

Andre


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

Here’s a picture that might make identifying the culprit easier


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Pnwpainter said:


> Hi all. Curious to hear some opinions on what might be going on with my mdf seeming to “raise” all over once I applied SW Pro Classic.
> 
> The preparation of the mdf pre paint was a multi step process. First I used SW sparkling paste to fill the holes and dings. I then went over the nail holes and any imperfections with spot putty (red stuff). After that I vaccummed everything, tack clothed everything and lastly I shot everything with a 211 trim from a Graco X9.
> 
> ...


Put a couple drops of water on that pre primed mdf and you will see what is happening.

Prime with bin, cover stain or other solvent primer first so the mdf doesn't suck up your top coat


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

was the mdf factory primed? because that is a farce of epic proportions! If you don't put a real primer on it, either a true alkyd or bin, it will do this with any paint. What you have is cheap a55 mdf. It isn't the paint's problem. And trust me, if i thought for a moment that it was the SW product that was failing i would certainly point it out!


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Yep. Cheaper MDF and latex without primer = what you ended up with


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

It’s a bummer you had to figure this out the hard way. MDF is notorious for that type of grain raise with Waterbased products. Even if you sand it smooth and spray another coat it’ll happen again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

Damn, this blows. I was worried this might be the case. I’m assuming I can prime on top of this stuff and then reshoot it? 

Any primer recommendations?


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

PNW Painter said:


> It’s a bummer you had to figure this out the hard way. MDF is notorious for that type of grain raise with Waterbased products. Even if you sand it smooth and spray another coat it’ll happen again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Btw—Love the profile name 😂


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

Sand it smooth first. Good coat of BIN (the real suff) light sanding then lay on your PC. From now on listen to the the little painter on your shoulder that says you better prime. We all have taken similar shortcuts snd paid the price.


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

Tprice2193 said:


> Sand it smooth first. Good coat of BIN (the real suff) light sanding then lay on your PC. From now on listen to the the little painter on your shoulder that says you better prime. We all have taken similar shortcuts snd paid the price.


BIN? So a shellac primer?


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

So what do painters in states like CA do if they cannot prime MDF with alkyd or alcohol based primer? Prime with waterborne and just live with the "grain raise" finish?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Was it factory primed?*



Pnwpainter said:


> Hi all. Curious to hear some opinions on what might be going on with my mdf seeming to “raise” all over once I applied SW Pro Classic.
> 
> The preparation of the mdf pre paint was a multi step process. First I used SW sparkling paste to fill the holes and dings. I then went over the nail holes and any imperfections with spot putty (red stuff). After that I vaccummed everything, tack clothed everything and lastly I shot everything with a 211 trim from a Graco X9.
> 
> ...


Pnw, I could be wrong, but I am guessing that your MDF was not factory primed. If that is the case, applying any water based product will be like putting a dry sponge into water. Others here have said to use non-water based primers if that is the case and I agree.

If the MDF was factory primed, your water test still should go as cocmonkeynuts described - kind of like putting water on a dry, white t-shirt. The wet area will look darker after the water soaks in on both the pre-primed MDF and the t-shirt.

With that in mind and having read here that factory primers are cheap and probably too old to be effective (primer supposedly has a time window of effectiveness, after which you need to prime again), I like to prime/seal factory-primed trim and doors.

My first experience with pre-primed MDF was painting door jamb trim in a condo. Some of the pieces of the jamb were pre-primed MDF and some were not. When painting over the MDF it seemed like the paint on my brush got sucked into the MDF before I could spread it!

I found an article online by Jack Pauhl regarding sealing pre-primed MDF with Gardz. I did so with MDF crown molding. After 3 coats of Gardz the blood red semi-gloss also took 3 coats, but they went on smoothly.

Next I had 3 factory primed MDF doors to paint. I knew I had to do something to them before painting. I took a leap of faith (that the fibers would not become raised) and gave them all a smooth coat of Gardz. As I rolled the Gardz on, it probably looked like what cocomonkeynuts sees when putting a few drops of water on factory primed MDF. As luck would have it, the Gardz did not raise the grain/wood chips of the MDF and the paint went on like butter. I am not sure if this will happen every time I try to seal MDF with Gardz, but it sure beats using BIN or Cover Stain type products.

I would be curious what others' go to primer/sealer is for factory primed MDF .......... other than to never use MDF in the first place!

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Pnw, I could be wrong, but I am guessing that your MDF was not factory primed. If that is the case, applying any water based product will be like putting a dry sponge into water. Others here have said to use non-water based primers if that is the case and I agree.
> 
> If the MDF was factory primed, your water test still should go as cocmonkeynuts described - kind of like putting water on a dry, white t-shirt. The wet area will look darker after the water soaks in on both the pre-primed MDF and the t-shirt.
> 
> ...


a note about the factory primed Mdf. Before you paint OR prime it, drip or spray some water on that factory "primer" and let it set wet for 15-20 seconds. If you can scrape it right down to the unfinished mdf with your fingernail, it isn't fit to paint period! A coat of bin or alkyd primer will help. Even a lacquer undercoater will do it. But anything waterbased will do this exact thing. I tested over 25 different paints and primers from just about every paint company i have access too, and NONE of the water based products did NOT do this. Even the hybrid alkyds did this crap. The ONLY things that didn't were true alkyd based primers, true alkyd based paints, and bin. Of course if you ask the paint department employees at the stores that sell "pre-primed" mdf what to use, they will ALL say it just needs a coat of paint. In fact a paint department employee at one such store, Menard's, told me to just put a single coat of Dutchboy semigloss on it because that's what it was designed for. Thinking there might be something to the Dutchboy "paint and primer" claim i did. (Just being a typical know nothing Diy'er for a while!) Of course it came out the worst of all the brands i tested.

So the moral of the story? You CAN just paint pre-primed mdf, but you SHOULDN'T just paint it. At least if you are expecting a check from someone.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Sealing MDF with Gardz*



PACman said:


> a note about the factory primed Mdf. Before you paint OR prime it, drip or spray some water on that factory "primer" and let it set wet for 15-20 seconds. If you can scrape it right down to the unfinished mdf with your fingernail, it isn't fit to paint period! A coat of bin or alkyd primer will help. Even a lacquer undercoater will do it. But anything waterbased will do this exact thing. I tested over 25 different paints and primers from just about every paint company i have access too, and NONE of the water based products did NOT do this. Even the hybrid alkyds did this crap. The ONLY things that didn't were true alkyd based primers, true alkyd based paints, and bin. Of course if you ask the paint department employees at the stores that sell "pre-primed" mdf what to use, they will ALL say it just needs a coat of paint. In fact a paint department employee at one such store, Menard's, told me to just put a single coat of Dutchboy semigloss on it because that's what it was designed for. Thinking there might be something to the Dutchboy "paint and primer" claim i did. (Just being a typical know nothing Diy'er for a while!) Of course it came out the worst of all the brands i tested.
> 
> So the moral of the story? You CAN just paint pre-primed mdf, but you SHOULDN'T just paint it. At least if you are expecting a check from someone.


PACman, with all due respect, did you try sealing factory primed MDF with Gardz as per Jack Pauhl?

http://www.jackpauhl.com/brushing-mdf-so-good-youll-wet-yourself/

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

futtyos said:


> PACman, with all due respect, did you try sealing factory primed MDF with Gardz as per Jack Pauhl?
> 
> http://www.jackpauhl.com/brushing-mdf-so-good-youll-wet-yourself/
> 
> futtyos


That is absolutely retarded. He didnt even say anything about sanding it...
Hes either an idiot, or he is talking about a different situation.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Who is "he?"*



Woodco said:


> That is absolutely retarded. He didnt even say anything about sanding it...
> Hes either an idiot, or he is talking about a different situation.


Woodco, forgive me for not understanding you, but I am not sure who you are referring to above.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Im talking about Jack Pauhl, but I missed the part about him sanding it first. I was buzzed. BUT, did you notice how he didnt say anything about sanding it after it was Gardzed? Also, doing crown molding like that is a different story than doing a door or something.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Observations*



Woodco said:


> Im talking about Jack Pauhl, but I missed the part about him sanding it first. I was buzzed. BUT, did you notice how he didnt say anything about sanding it after it was Gardzed? Also, doing crown molding like that is a different story than doing a door or something.


You are correct. No mention was made of sanding the crown molding after the Gardz had dried, just applying 2 coats of Super Paint semi-gloss. This is exactly how I did it after Gardzing my crown molding, i.e. I did not sand after the Gardz dried.

Did you catch the last of the key benefits Jack Pauhl mentions about sealing the crown molding with Gardz before painting?

*"GARDZ allowed SuperPaint to flow out entirely with no trace it was brushed, NONE. The finish was nicer than many sprayed finishes plagued with orange peel."*

That is basically how my finish ended up looking as well. Apparently it was not necessary to sand the Gardz before painting, either in Jack Pauhl's case or mine. I am guessing that the combination of Gardz drying fast as well as the physical position of the crown molding being installed high up against the ceiling and facing mostly down did not allow very much dust to settle onto it.

I am trying to understand what might be retarded or idiotic about Jack Pauhl's method as mentioned in the link.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Like I said, I was drunk when I wrote that. Heres a question though. Why doesnt the gardz raise the grain?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gardz not raising grain*



Woodco said:


> Like I said, I was drunk when I wrote that. Heres a question though. Why doesnt the gardz raise the grain?


That is a good question. I have used Gardz on crown molding as well as factory primed MDF doors and no grain raising occurred. I was careful not to sand the doors too much before applying the Gardz. I used a fine grit sponge sander and barely used any pressure so as not to break through into the MDF.

I am wondering if PACman or cocomonkeynuts will be forthcoming with an answer to this.

Also, with the doors being mostly flat and having rolled the Gardz with a thin nap mini roller, there were a few nubs after the Gardz dried, so I did sand the doors again, also very gently with a fine grit sanding sponge, then wiped down with a clean damp rag prior to painting.

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

futtyos said:


> That is a good question. I have used Gardz on crown molding as well as factory primed MDF doors and no grain raising occurred. I was careful not to sand the doors too much before applying the Gardz. I used a fine grit sponge sander and barely used any pressure so as not to break through into the MDF.
> 
> I am wondering if PACman or cocomonkeynuts will be forthcoming with an answer to this.
> 
> ...



No idea. I don't carry and have never used guardz but i was wondering the same thing my self because guardz is like 70% water and I would imagine it probably is swelling the mdf fibers. That pre primed stuff when you drop a few drops of water the fibers suck it up like a thirsty baboon in a matter of seconds and permanently swells up the mdf in those spots after a few minutes dry time


Ill try to get some to play with this week


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I have had good success with priming MDF with any quality alkyd based primer. Even SW’s exterior oil based primer has worked well. Never used any shellac based primers but imagine they would do the job. Maybe an issue with hardness or being a bit on the brittle side? Especially the way MDF flexes - at least in the trim products.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Keep in mind that a LOT of times (I'd say MOST of the time) there isnt an issue with MDF grain raising. I've only had the issue once in my life, and it was on doors, and I've usually never even primed the MDF at all, let alone with a solvent base. So, if you do use gardz, and it doesnt raise the grain, it really doesnt mean gardz prevents it. If I were to even begin to take that seriously, I would have to see a sample board with one third gardz, one third waterborne primer, and one third solvent. 

Im not doubting that brushing Gardz on crown will make the topcoat go on better, if done by a brush, but Im absolutely doubting that its preventing grain raising, where other latex primers would not. I want to see a side by side sample, and no, Im not gonna do it. Futtyos, you keep shoving Gardz down everyones throats, do some comparative samples and show us.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Was it factory primed?*



Woodco said:


> Keep in mind that a LOT of times (I'd say MOST of the time) there isnt an issue with MDF grain raising. I've only had the issue once in my life, and it was on doors, and I've usually never even primed the MDF at all, let alone with a solvent base. So, if you do use gardz, and it doesnt raise the grain, it really doesnt mean gardz prevents it. If I were to even begin to take that seriously, I would have to see a sample board with one third gardz, one third waterborne primer, and one third solvent.
> 
> Im not doubting that brushing Gardz on crown will make the topcoat go on better, if done by a brush, but Im absolutely doubting that its preventing grain raising, where other latex primers would not. I want to see a side by side sample, and no, Im not gonna do it. Futtyos, you keep shoving Gardz down everyones throats, do some comparative samples and show us.


First things first. In my post #12 my title was the question "was it factory primed?" Pnwpainter has yet to come back and tell the whole story and give all the pertinent details.

Maybe we should come up with a form to be filled out by members who post questions without giving enough pertinent details of what they are asking about. Lots of time and finger exercises be wasted here.

As far as brushing Gardz over MDF trim, I have posted a link of Jack Pauhl's describing this being done as well as me doing it myself successfully. If Woodco or anyone else wants to try this with factory primed MDF, they are more than welcome to do so. If anyone chooses to try this, please come back and share the results with all here at Paint Talk.

Now we wait for Pnwpainter to come back with more Ovaltine.

Please?

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

futtyos said:


> First things first. In my post #12 my title was the question "was it factory primed?" Pnwpainter has yet to come back and tell the whole story and give all the pertinent details.
> 
> Maybe we should come up with a form to be filled out by members who post questions without giving enough pertinent details of what they are asking about. Lots of time and finger exercises be wasted here.
> 
> ...


Though I appreciate your attempt to have members be more thorough, let’s tackle the question “form” after we figure out how to get everyone to read the posting rules. :sad:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Apology*



RH said:


> Though I appreciate your attempt to have members be more thorough, let’s tackle the question “form” after we figure out how to get everyone to read the posting rules. :sad:


RH, I apologize for whatever I did. I was trying to get the discussion back to the OP's problem with MDF and what their original situation was, whether the MDF was bare to start with or had already been factory primed. I was not completely clear on which the case was from reading Pnwpainter's posts, so I thought I might ask for clarification. I should have done this earlier before talking about any particular procedure to correct any problems.

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

futtyos said:


> RH, I apologize for whatever I did. I was trying to get the discussion back to the OP's problem with MDF and what their original situation was, whether the MDF was bare to start with or had already been factory primed. I was not completely clear on which the case was from reading Pnwpainter's posts, so I thought I might ask for clarification. I should have done this earlier before talking about any particular procedure to correct any problems.
> 
> futtyos


No need to apologize - you didn’t do anything. I was just being sarcastic about trying to get anyone to fill out a form when it seems that half the time they can’t be bothered to even read the rules about posting.


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

futtyos said:


> Pnw, I could be wrong, but I am guessing that your MDF was not factory primed. If that is the case, applying any water based product will be like putting a dry sponge into water. Others here have said to use non-water based primers if that is the case and I agree.
> 
> If the MDF was factory primed, your water test still should go as cocmonkeynuts described - kind of like putting water on a dry, white t-shirt. The wet area will look darker after the water soaks in on both the pre-primed MDF and the t-shirt.
> 
> ...


No wasted finger exercises here. The mdf was your basic pre primed stuff that 90% of the newer homes in the PNW have. 

What I plan on doing is sanding this crap, spot putting the holes because the paint swelled the mdf and duckef up my prep. Shooting it with SW shellac primer and then going from there. No one on this thread seems to be able to advise on a good SW primer product for this situation, but from my research it appears that shellac is a good idea as it sticks to anything.

I’ll update this thread when I get this crap redone.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

The SW white pigmented shellac primer is 100 
percent interchangeable with BIN. SW has it in a rattle can if that helps. I actually use more of the SW product than BIN. Be careful SW had a synthetic shellac product with a similar looking label. I cannot recommend that product.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Caution!*



Pnwpainter said:


> No wasted finger exercises here. The mdf was your basic pre primed stuff that 90% of the newer homes in the PNW have.
> 
> What I plan on doing is sanding this crap, spot putting the holes because the paint swelled the mdf and duckef up my prep. Shooting it with SW shellac primer and then going from there. No one on this thread seems to be able to advise on a good SW primer product for this situation, but from my research it appears that shellac is a good idea as it sticks to anything.
> 
> I’ll update this thread when I get this crap redone.


*WARNING! The information below contains references to Gardz. Please do not read if references to Gardz makes you upset. Also, please do not read if replies by futtyos make you upset.*

Pre-primed it was. Okay. If that is the case I would be wary of sealing the MDF you have with Gardz - or obviously any other water based primer/sealer.

I am in the Chicago area. I wonder if it is possible that the MDF I have dealt with here is somehow different or has a different factory primer than the MDF in your area.

I have applied Gardz onto factory primed crown molding, baseboard and Jen Weld MDF doors and have not had any problems. The GC I paint condos for, as well as myself, have painted many feet of pre-primed MDF baseboard with just 2 coats of paint with no problems, at least not yet!

From looking at your photos, I would think of getting a piece of MDF from the same place as the stuff you are working on (if you can) and do any testing of water based materials on that instead of already installed materials. Except PC, that is.

I don't know why Gardz worked on the MDFs I sealed, but it did. Even so, I now would not recommend anyone using it without testing it on the materials one is working with in their neck of the woods.

I will mention something I thought interesting about Gardz vs 123. Even though the directions for both USG Easy Sand and Durabond say NOT to use either for final skim coating, I have done so for many years. I final skim coated most of a wall for the GC I work for with Durabond, then he finished repairing the section I left undone, then final skimmed it with Easy Sand. When he went to prime it with 123 it started melting both the Easy Sand and the Durabond. Somehow he was able to smooth it out. I had the same experience priming 123 over Easy Sand and Durabond skim coats. This "melting" of a skim coat of either ES or DB has never occurred when I apply Gardz over the skim coat first. Go figure.

What I like about using Gardz over cheap factory primer is that it soaks in and very possibly helps bond the primer material to the MDF in a way that might not be achieved by waterless primers or sealers. At least that is what I am thinking is going on. Gardz is recommened for on top of cheap builders flat to soak through and help bond to the drywall, so maybe that is what is going on with cheap factory primer. Perhaps someone here will enlighten me further.

I am wondering if the money saved on buying and using MDF is worth it if the MDF has to be babied like you are now doing. I don't imagine a carpenter doing a cost analysis on MDF vs wood because they are not going to be finishing the materials with spackle, primer and paint like we do....unless he is the also the GC. I am reminded of how sometimes painters and GCs think they are saving money buying cheap paint, but end up spending more money paying for the extra labor needed to apply said cheap paint.

I hope your project with the MDF comes out well and that you never have to repeat it as you find yourself having to do now.

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

One thing I remember when I had this problem with doors, is that it was better to NOT sand the factory primer very much before repriming it. If you sand the factory stuff, you're opening up the pores to let more moisture in. If you reprime, THEN sand, it doesnt quite as much. 

Side note, but possibly related... Im trying out scuff-x for the first time on a cabinet project. Theres some plywood shelves, and solid wood doors and drawers. I put two coats of white lacquer undercoater on everything. I havent used this stuff in a long time, but I have used it before with no problems. But with the first coat of scuff-x, im getting some wierd defects showing through on the wood that is very similar to MDF swelling. I'll post a pic later. I reprimed all the fronts with latex undercoater, and it fixed the problem though, but Im wondering if its a scuff-x thing, or the lacquer. I also ran out of scuffx, (The store did too) so I tried a gallon of Pro Industrial Multi surface Acrylic for the first coat on the sides I reprimed. I will compare the results tomorrow.

Anyway, my theory is that maybe the factory primer on this MDF is the same lacquer undercoater I used....


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

It was nice to see a reference to undercoaters finally....imo that's the way to go. Prep, caulk,clean then blast undercoater (the more the better) then topcoat. Ez to sand and cheap. Just a quick bump between primer and finish and your MDF looks great when done....and

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS REPRIME THE PREPRIMED.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Well, latex undercoater when its hot and humid (austin TX) doesnt like to sand well, even two days later. Thats why I tried the lacquer. Either scuffx doesnt like it, or IDK... It felt smooth as a baby butt after I sanded, then did another coat, and sanded it, and its rough as hell, like the grain raised... But its solid wood... IDK.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Well, latex undercoater when its hot and humid (austin TX) doesnt like to sand well, even two days later. Thats why I tried the lacquer. Either scuffx doesnt like it, or IDK... It felt smooth as a baby butt after I sanded, then did another coat, and sanded it, and its rough as hell, like the grain raised... But its solid wood... IDK.


My comment was to the OP. I'm thinking undercoater would solve that issue. You're is a bit of a head scratcher...not sure why a latex u undercoater would still be tough to sand 2 days later. I'm in the PNW...we get cold and humid far more than hot and humid though....it is typically sandable in an hour...ish. anyway I was going for high build quick dry, ez sand...and cheap. What ever product meets that criteria for your region, use it!

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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Couple of ways to deal with this. Pre-sand, which is always good. I've seen stuff come from the manufacturer that just looks horrible, almost like the boards stuck together and the primer rippled. 



Sand, coat with paint. If you see them, sand again and shoot again with paint. 2 coats of paint with sand in between. 



Other scenario. Sand, prime with fast dry oil primer or shellac based primer, sand, and shoot coat of paint or two coats. Whatever your final specs are. 



Good luck.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> It was nice to see a reference to undercoaters finally....imo that's the way to go. Prep, caulk,clean then blast undercoater (the more the better) then topcoat. Ez to sand and cheap. Just a quick bump between primer and finish and your MDF looks great when done....and
> 
> ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS REPRIME THE PREPRIMED.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yes, that is the best way. When using a Festool sander to sand down the Bondo red topping compound, it will always punch through the factory primer. Do you use an oil-based undercoat? I'm trying to stay away from oils. I wouldn't want to spray oil primer on every job but that's just me. You are going for the ultimate quality and I can respect that. Have you ever used Killz Max? Scott Burt loves that waterborne primer for trim packs. It is very pricey, however.
https://goo.gl/c5tzb3


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I like this stuff....gotta find a bm equivilant.









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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Sometimes that stuff sands great, sometimes it gums up the sandpaper immediately. Thats what I was using when I was having grain raising problems with the doors. It did seem to work a little better when I DIDNT sand the factory primer first, though.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Woodco said:


> Sometimes that stuff sands great, sometimes it gums up the sandpaper immediately. Thats what I was using when I was having grain raising problems with the doors. It did seem to work a little better when I DIDNT sand the factory primer first, though.


I get the same issue when using Inlx Stix. It balls up when sanding Kitchen Cabinet door repaints. You can go through a lot of sandpaper discs and Festool isn't cheap. That might be because it is urethane enhanced. I like primers that powder up like BIN.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Woodco said:


> Sometimes that stuff sands great, sometimes it gums up the sandpaper immediately. Thats what I was using when I was having grain raising problems with the doors. It did seem to work a little better when I DIDNT sand the factory primer first, though.


If I remember that thread I think the biggest issue was maybe oversanding a bit...I remember a little tail chasing I think? Might have it confused with a different thread though....anyway to each his (or her) own...its hard to have a hard n fast for all of us as we are dealing with different climatic/environmental issues. What works great in the pnw, maybe not so much in Alabama or Nevada....personally, the only problem over had with the ppg undercoater was user error. I had a sag on a couple doors that I didn't see (remodel, crap lighting, middle of december...lalala...oh, and I screwed up.lol) that ,because the primer is flat, did not get seen till finish...not a big deal, just a drawback of a flat primer.

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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

Pnwpainter said:


> Hi all. Curious to hear some opinions on what might be going on with my mdf seeming to “raise” all over once I applied SW Pro Classic.
> 
> The preparation of the mdf pre paint was a multi step process. First I used SW sparkling paste to fill the holes and dings. I then went over the nail holes and any imperfections with spot putty (red stuff). After that I vaccummed everything, tack clothed everything and lastly I shot everything with a 211 trim from a Graco X9.
> 
> ...


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

lilpaintchic said:


> If I remember that thread I think the biggest issue was maybe oversanding a bit...I remember a little tail chasing I think? Might have it confused with a different thread though....anyway to each his (or her) own...its hard to have a hard n fast for all of us as we are dealing with different climatic/environmental issues. What works great in the pnw, maybe not so much in Alabama or Nevada....personally, the only problem over had with the ppg undercoater was user error. I had a sag on a couple doors that I didn't see (remodel, crap lighting, middle of december...lalala...oh, and I screwed up.lol) that ,because the primer is flat, did not get seen till finish...not a big deal, just a drawback of a flat primer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Well my thread was that my MDF doors were grain raising hard even with 2+ undercoaters. A lot of them, I just waited a few days after the first coat of advance, then sand the crap out of them with 400 grit. Anything less would show scratchmarks. They looked great after that. Some of them I oil primed. That worked. 

Now, I usually dont prime doors, but anything I spackle caulk or putty gets primed with something sandable. Back when I did tract homes, I'd prime all the trim with the wall paint. We'd hit it with a sanding sponge even a couple hours later and sand it a little, then topcoat with Kelly Moore 1650. Thats some good paint too. It wasnt cabinet grade, but it did pretty damn good, especially for a tract.


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## canopainting (Feb 12, 2013)

Here in CA i will shoot MDF with either white shellac, or white lacquer under coat 275 VOC, depends on the job// We haven't been able to buy flash dry oil here in Sacramento anymore for quit a while.


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## Pnwpainter (Jul 9, 2018)

canopainting said:


> Here in CA i will shoot MDF with either white shellac, or white lacquer under coat 275 VOC, depends on the job// We haven't been able to buy flash dry oil here in Sacramento anymore for quit a while.


I started to remedy my raised mdf. Prepped it all and for the first time ever shot SW shellac.

This stuff lays weird. It’s as if the primer doesn’t even get applied and it not smooth to touch once dried, kinda a super fine sandpaper feel. Is that normal for shellac? The oddest product I’ve ever shot.


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## Local paint pro (May 15, 2018)

Ive used their shellac primer (real shellac) pinkish can.. I liked the finish and the strength of adhesion. I have not however used it on mdf, and didn’t experience the sandpapery feel at all.. granted I used an hvlp in all cases. I am a fan though.. what did you pay for a gallon $?


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Put a couple drops of water on that pre primed mdf and you will see what is happening.
> 
> Prime with bin, cover stain or other solvent primer first so the mdf doesn't suck up your top coat



I second that! :thumbup:


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

WestCoast99 said:


> So what do painters in states like CA do if they cannot prime MDF with alkyd or alcohol based primer? Prime with waterborne and just live with the "grain raise" finish?



What? CA forbids shellac?!! WTF! That seems very unreasonable! 



Maybe a Marine supply store? Here in Ontario marine (boat) products have different paint rules and they are even allowed to use oil alkyd product. CA is a bit nutty so I don't know if the same is true there but I know they have lots of boats!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

jennifertemple said:


> What? CA forbids shellac?!! WTF! That seems very unreasonable!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a Marine supply store? Here in Ontario marine (boat) products have different paint rules and they are even allowed to use oil alkyd product. CA is a bit nutty so I don't know if the same is true there but I know they have lots of boats!



I find it weird that Benjamin Moore is still selling Alkyd wall paint here in Ontario. I see it all the time and I know it's not the same cans sitting there for years on end.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I find it weird that Benjamin Moore is still selling Alkyd wall paint here in Ontario. I see it all the time and I know it's not the same cans sitting there for years on end.



Haven't been caught yet? :vs_smirk:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I find it weird that Benjamin Moore is still selling Alkyd wall paint here in Ontario. I see it all the time and I know it's not the same cans sitting there for years on end.



Which wall paints? I only carry impervo and DTM oil


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Which wall paints? I only carry impervo and DTM oil



I'm 99% sure it's the Collection series that they replaced with Regal several years ago, but the girls at the shop have told me they keep getting this stuff delivered to them and there's a few guys in town that use it enough to keep restocking. I have no idea why you'd even want to bother with dealing with oil again.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I'm 99% sure it's the Collection series that they replaced with Regal several years ago, but the girls at the shop have told me they keep getting this stuff delivered to them and there's a few guys in town that use it enough to keep restocking. I have no idea why you'd even want to bother with dealing with oil again.



https://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-ca/data-sheets/technical-data-sheets
Is that F235 "BENJAMIN MOORE COLLECTION INTERIOR ALKYD SATIN"?


I guess that's the Canadian equivalent c235 satin impervo but now metal substrate 'only'


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