# My Advanced painting theory



## ExcelPaintingCo

After finishing her kitchen cabinets, the homeowner asked if we could do her powder room vanity. They were to be sprayed the same dark color we used in her kitchen. The only difference was, they hadn't previously been brush painted, so they were currently the original stained and lacquered finish.

I thought it would be a good opportunity to see exactly how good I could make satin advanced look. So I took them apart and brought the two doors and one drawer face to the shop for some testing.

I started out by cleaning, and lightly hand sanding everything with 220. Then I sprayed both sides with deep base 253 and allowed for an overnight dry. Next I lightly hand sanded with 320, and sprayed two coats of finish on the backs and one coat on the fronts to get to this point:










Then I hand sanded with 400:











I then sprayed the second coat of finish:










After the second coat dried, I could still notice some scratch marks from sanding:










Finally I sprayed a third and final coat without sanding:










These are the results after the final coat dried:











So my advanced painting theory is: two finish coats without sanding between is necessary to completely eliminate scratch marks and maximize the sheen and beauty of advanced satin.


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## Repaint Florida

WOW ... great pic's and step by step view :thumbsup:
Thank for taking the time to document and share


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## daArch

WOW, they look auto quality :thumbup:

BTW, was any of that finish sanding wet sanded (with wet/dry paper) ?


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## ExcelPaintingCo

daArch said:


> WOW, they look auto quality :thumbup: BTW, was any of that finish sanding wet sanded (with wet/dry paper) ?


 Good question! I forgot to include this pic:






It shows the type of paper (all dry sanding) with my folding technique, and the pressure setting on my 395.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Repaint Florida said:


> WOW ... great pic's and step by step view :thumbsup: Thank for taking the time to document and share


The Seahawks aren't playing today, so what else is a paint nerd to do?


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## Sir Mixalot

Nice looking work! :clap:


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## Repaint Florida

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> The Seahawks aren't playing today, so what else is a paint nerd to do?


.....


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## TJ Paint

So dont sand? Im confused.

How many hours for the vanity?


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## TJ Paint

So my advanced painting theory is: two finish coats. without sanding between is necessary to completely eliminate scratch marks and maximize the sheen and beauty of advanced satin.[/QUOTE]

So no sanding? Im confused.

They look great but did u make any money?


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## ExcelPaintingCo

TJ Paint said:


> So dont sand? Im confused. How many hours for the vanity?


No sanding between the two final coats. I had 7 hours budgeted, with 6 invested so far. I still need to deliver and install, so it should be right on budget. I had left over material from the kitchen so that should translate into a small profit.


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## Rbriggs82

How long did you wait between coats? They look friggin' awesome btw. :thumbsup:


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Rbriggs82 said:


> How long did you wait between coats? They look friggin' awesome btw. :thumbsup:


For this exercise, I allowed for overnight dry times between all finish coats on the fronts. I have had success recoating white based colors in as little as 30-45 minutes or dry to the touch. I tried to stack coats on the backs with the deep base color and got a slightly seeded look.


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## Dave Mac

Truly a work of art, you don't see craftsmanship like that much these days


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## Different Strokes

nice work!


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## straight_lines

It is really easy to make beautiful finishes with this paint. Just wish it would get harder.


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## MIZZOU

That's what she said


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## Hines Painting

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> No sanding between the two final coats. I had 7 hours budgeted, with 6 invested so far. I still need to deliver and install, so it should be right on budget. I had left over material from the kitchen so that should translate into a small profit.


Is that 7 hours for the doors, drawer front and the rest of the vanity? Or just the doors/drawer?

Are you currently on a linear foot measuring system? Or square foot? I'm currently on Linear, but wondering if it is the best system (not saying it's not, I just don't know). So if you are using another way to measure I'd love to hear about it.


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## Paintdian

What kind of tip?


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## ridesarize

Isn't it always true that when you dry sand latex enamel it will leave scratches that show after the second coat dries? I try not to sand between topcoats at all, but would wet sand as much as possible if I did.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Hines Painting said:


> Is that 7 hours for the doors, drawer front and the rest of the vanity? Or just the doors/drawer? Are you currently on a linear foot measuring system? Or square foot? I'm currently on Linear, but wondering if it is the best system (not saying it's not, I just don't know). So if you are using another way to measure I'd love to hear about it.


Seven hours was for the whole thing. I have set rate-ranges per piece; doors, drawers, shelves, boxes, etc. depending on the required systems, and environment. But in reality, I bid almost every job differently based on its own unique set of circumstances. In others words, I could probably use more advice than I can give on the subject.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

ridesarize said:


> Isn't it always true that when you dry sand latex enamel it will leave scratches that show after the second coat dries? I try not to sand between topcoats at all, but would wet sand as much as possible if I did.


I was pretty much 100% satin impervo oil, until a started messing around with advanced about a year or so ago. So this is all relatively new to me. Does wet sanding completely eliminate the scratches ?


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## Hines Painting

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Seven hours was for the whole thing. I have set rate-ranges per piece; doors, drawers, shelves, boxes, etc. depending on the required systems, and environment. But in reality, I bid almost every job differently based on its own unique set of circumstances. In others words, I could probably use more advice than I can give on the subject.


Ya I hear that lol

I feel like most of the time I'm just making an educated guess on cabinets. I'm considering trying to shift my focus to cabinet refinishing. It would be a long term transition for sure (years most likely); but if I could slowly become a cabinet refinishing "authority" in a 1 hour radius from my house it would probably be worthwhile.


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## aaron61

We shoot lacquer. Quite a bit more expensive. Very steep learning curve but the results are amazing


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## Hines Painting

aaron61 said:


> We shoot lacquer. Quite a bit more expensive. Very steep learning curve but the results are amazing


I was under the impression lacquer was easier to do? And not as good of a finish product because of how hard it dries.


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## aaron61

Why would a harder finish on cabinets be a bad thing? Why would it be easier? Have you ever shot lacquer?


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## Hines Painting

I've never shot it. But another painter I know uses it and he told me he uses it because it's more forgiving. Dries quickly, runs sand out to a powder instead of gumming up. But the hardness of it makes it more likely to start flaking off if finger nails hit it or people are hard on their doors. It isn't flexible like paint which is why it does it.

Again, that's just what I've been told. I have no desire to use it so I'll never know first hand. That's why I asked.


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## Paintdian

What kind of tip did you use to spray the doors?


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## ExcelPaintingCo

aaron61 said:


> We shoot lacquer. Quite a bit more expensive. Very steep learning curve but the results are amazing


 I've shot plenty of clear lacquer over the years, never opaque though. I can imagine the learning curve with opaque lacquers and CVs would be steep. If production was a priority, then that would definitely be the way to go. The main problem I have with those products are the low flash points. I don't have an explosion proof shop and there is always an onsite element to the kitchens we do. Therefore my preferred products are enamels, and more recently waterborne enamels. I'm obviously still in the testing process to refine my systems. If I ever got serious about cabinets, then yes, it would be all lacquers and CVs. Just like everybody else.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Paintdian said:


> What kind of tip did you use to spray the doors?


310ff


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## Jmayspaint

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> 310ff



Did you spring for a new one or is it the same one you sprayed those three kitchens with? 

All sweet looking work :thumbsup:


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Jmayspaint said:


> Did you spring for a new one or is it the same one you sprayed those three kitchens with?  All sweet looking work :thumbsup:


Same old same.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Since this is the photo forum:







The box was rolled with a 6in 1/4" weenie and back brushed. It hardly looks any worse than the doors. That's the power of advanced.


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## Damon T

I just used the Wooster Red Feather roller cover with Advance. No back brushing. Looked nice. I usually buy the cheap mohair 4" 10 packs at SW but these seemed a little higher quality. Which figures since it costs a bit more.


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## ridesarize

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I was pretty much 100% satin impervo oil, until a started messing around with advanced about a year or so ago. So this is all relatively new to me. Does wet sanding completely eliminate the scratches ?


I would have to say yes it eliminates scratching if done correctly. Use enough water and a nice flat piece of 220-320 sandpaper. When you feel suction holding paper to surface there is enough water, and you should not feel a scratching but smoothness. wipe with clean cloth. We have wet sanded impervo between coats, really only where necessary like a sag. I have also wet sanded lacquer when it ran, works like a charm to not sand through thinner spot of product.


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## Damon T

ridesarize said:


> I would have to say yes it eliminates scratching if done correctly. Use enough water and a nice flat piece of 220-320 sandpaper. When you feel suction holding paper to surface there is enough water, and you should not feel a scratching but smoothness. wipe with clean cloth. We have wet sanded impervo between coats, really only where necessary like a sag. I have also wet sanded lacquer when it ran, works like a charm to not sand through thinner spot of product.


You can also use the sanding sponges for wet sanding. I like the 3M purple fine and extra fine.ones. As was mentioned wet sanding can really help pull out sags without tearing open the underlying area. 

Btw I missed the first part of the thread somehow. Awesome review George! 

I find the same thing with the scratches with advance. The last entry door I did in a dark color showed the 220 really bad. I tried to pull some of them out with 320 before the 2nd coat, and then shot it heavier. Of course this is with hvlp, so still not as heavy as airless. Looked way better with 2nd. A 3rd might have been the money, but I've learned that sometimes with spraying, especially on site, it's better to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.


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## ridesarize

Damon T said:


> You can also use the sanding sponges for wet sanding. I like the 3M purple fine and extra fine.ones. As was mentioned wet sanding can really help pull out sags without tearing open the underlying area.
> 
> Btw I missed the first part of the thread somehow. Awesome review George!
> 
> I find the same thing with the scratches with advance. The last entry door I did in a dark color showed the 220 really bad. I tried to pull some of them out with 320 before the 2nd coat, and then shot it heavier. Of course this is with hvlp, so still not as heavy as airless. Looked way better with 2nd. A 3rd might have been the money, but I've learned that sometimes with spraying, especially on site, it's better to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run.


hi, yeah we actually wet sanded our wb pro classic between coats today using the sponge only, purple 3m.


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## Seattlepainting

George; good pictures and documentation. Was that a stock BM color? The drytime for high colorant darks slows us down significantly vs. whites.

Have you tried the CloverDale water enamel? Stop by the shop we have big samples vs Advance vs PC vs Eco...


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## driftweed

First off, excellent work. So don't take offense to this question...

You can still barely see imperfections(?) from using the sprayer. A waviness if you will. I noticed that you stopped sanding with 400 grit. Do you think that if you went with a finer paper such as 1000 or heck all the way to 2000 grit it would have been truly mirror like?

I highly doubt as presented anyone would notice the difference, but I am curious nonetheless. 

I ask this for the following reason:

When we do fiberglass repair on tubs, we go all the way up to 2000 grit paper. But at the end of the day we still have the same finish as you did on the cabinets. And so far the only way we have found to make it mirror smooth is to come back and buff. 

Different paints, i know. But if I can follow you high end guys and learn better prep techniques, then so be it.


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## Bender

straight_lines said:


> It is really easy to make beautiful finishes with this paint. Just wish it would get harder.


I was thinking about you and this comment the other day. I shot 2 coats advance on these cabs and 4 days later they're still soft.
I flipped and sprayed the front side on Friday. Hoping they don't mark up the backs


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## stelzerpaintinginc.

Bender said:


> I was thinking about you and this comment the other day. I shot 2 coats advance on these cabs and 4 days later they're still soft.
> I flipped and sprayed the front side on Friday. Hoping they don't mark up the backs



Not to digress, but do you wrap those boards in order to minimize the chance of leaving marks? I just run a strip of 12" paper from a masker down the length of each board, wrap excess around, keeping it tight, then tape the seam. 


Stelzer Painting Inc.


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## straight_lines

Bender said:


> I was thinking about you and this comment the other day. I shot 2 coats advance on these cabs and 4 days later they're still soft.
> I flipped and sprayed the front side on Friday. Hoping they don't mark up the backs


Saving grace is it touches up pretty easily. Shame because its so easy to use but I had to start using WB lacquers for this reason.


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## slinger58

Bender said:


> I was thinking about you and this comment the other day. I shot 2 coats advance on these cabs and 4 days later they're still soft.
> I flipped and sprayed the front side on Friday. Hoping they don't mark up the backs


Dan, did you shoot 2 coats in one day? Or one per day?

I'm about to do a set of cab doors with Advance S/G "China White".

What was your primer?

This will be my first time to shoot Advance with airless. Did some new cabs with PC hybrid last year and it sprayed great but cure time was an issue.


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## Bender

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not to digress, but do you wrap those boards in order to minimize the chance of leaving marks? I just run a strip of 12" paper from a masker down the length of each board, wrap excess around, keeping it tight, then tape the seam.
> 
> 
> Stelzer Painting Inc.


I ran 2 layers of tape on the edge of the 2x4s figuring it would be thick and soft enough. It wasn't:no: I wish I had laid out something wider to spread the weight.


straight_lines said:


> Saving grace is it touches up pretty easily. Shame because its so easy to use but I had to start using WB lacquers for this reason.


I need to look into that. Shame because Advance is sexy.


slinger58 said:


> Dan, did you shoot 2 coats in one day? Or one per day?
> I'm about to do a set of cab doors with Advance S/G "China White".
> 
> What was your primer?
> 
> This will be my first time to shoot Advance with airless. Did some new cabs with PC hybrid last year and it sprayed great but cure time was an issue.


Two coats, about 4 hours apart, and they were pretty heavy coats because the doors were horizontal so I laid it on. I wanted them to look like glass, and they do, but man they are slow to cure.
You'll love it but give yourself a little extra time. 

Here's an idea I would like to try- Get some good ol' fashioned thumb tacks and set them pointy side up. Set the finished side door on them. It would leave a tiny pinhole in all four corners but thats it. I doubt a HO would even notice.
What do you think?

I actually did this once with small finish nails but it wasn't a very important job.


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## Bender

I primed with a waterborne bonding primer. Its a knockoff of XIM 400WB
http://www.kellymoore.com/docs/defa...heets/287-TDS-1113.pdf?Status=Master&sfvrsn=0


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## benthepainter

**** me the Net is good I went to read what this thread about and noticed I already thanked the post 

I must be getting Alzheimer's?









Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## benthepainter

Plus I even have German heritage lol


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## ridesarize

I don't fancy the thumb tack idea Bender, but as they say "It ain't MY dog".

Maybe spray normal or light coats so it will cure better. They will still look like glass.

I hang my cabs, all sides done at once.


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## Phinnster

Great work !


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## slinger58

Dan, the patented "Paul Schmidt Drying Rack" only touches the cab door in four tiny little spots and rarely leaves a mark. I'm about to build a second set which will give me a 60 door capacity. :thumbsup:


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Seattlepainting said:


> George; good pictures and documentation. Was that a stock BM color? The drytime for high colorant darks slows us down significantly vs. whites. Have you tried the CloverDale water enamel? Stop by the shop we have big samples vs Advance vs PC vs Eco...


 Hey, I just noticed my thread was resurrected. This job was a custom match color. As stated, I allowed overnight dry times between coats and didn't experience any prolonged curing. I've found that, along with proper heating and ventilation to be very important with deep base colors. More recently on an onsite painted bay window seat, we used about the same color advanced satin. The vertical surfaces were fine, however, first the horizontal got walked on by the alarm guy and left foot prints. We had to redo. Then a couple days latter the family cat walked on it and left foot prints. We had to redo again. Then we left the whole bay window masked with plastic to keep everyone/thing off for a couple weeks and that seemed to do the trick. Far from ideal.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

driftweed said:


> First off, excellent work. So don't take offense to this question... You can still barely see imperfections(?) from using the sprayer. A waviness if you will. I noticed that you stopped sanding with 400 grit. Do you think that if you went with a finer paper such as 1000 or heck all the way to 2000 grit it would have been truly mirror like? I highly doubt as presented anyone would notice the difference, but I am curious nonetheless. I ask this for the following reason: When we do fiberglass repair on tubs, we go all the way up to 2000 grit paper. But at the end of the day we still have the same finish as you did on the cabinets. And so far the only way we have found to make it mirror smooth is to come back and buff. Different paints, i know. But if I can follow you high end guys and learn better prep techniques, then so be it.


I've since followed ridersize's advice and wet sanded with 600 on advanced high-gloss with very nice results. I don't think it's necessary going further than 400 with satin finish.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

Bender said:


> I was thinking about you and this comment the other day. I shot 2 coats advance on these cabs and 4 days later they're still soft. I flipped and sprayed the front side on Friday. Hoping they don't mark up the backs


Ive had good luck stacking two coats of lighter colors in one day. However, I purposely spray the first coat very light. In addition to good ventilation and heating.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not to digress, but do you wrap those boards in order to minimize the chance of leaving marks? I just run a strip of 12" paper from a masker down the length of each board, wrap excess around, keeping it tight, then tape the seam. Stelzer Painting Inc.


Yes, you can see in The photos that the boards were draped with old blackest and quilts. I've since been using the thin foam packaging material available at your favorite home improvement store.


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## GSP82

Great job and I love Advance stuff looks so awesome


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## fortunerestoration

The result is really amazing. Good work done! It has come out that way since you have done real hard work all the way to the finish. How much time did you take for this, must have been a real test of patience?


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## straight_lines

Was able to get this black to harden up pretty fast. Still easy to mar the surface leaving a dull streak. We ran dehumidifiers for three days in this room after spraying.


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## oldccm

Got any more pictures of your door set up? Looks interesting


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## GSP82

Some doors I sprayed with the semi gloss Advance!


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## oldccm

Again I like the system. How does it work? I'm still using door stackers which are great on big jobs but smaller houses where all the doors fit in 1-2 rooms that looks pretty sweet


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## GSP82

The door hangers I got at My paint store they look like a v shape and u bang them into the top of the door


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## ridesarize

Straight lines, did you plastic off the walls and windows in that black door spray room? I see windows and an entry door, and trim. If would have all that covered in black overspray if I didn't cover it and/or put cardboard on top of doors to stop spray-over.


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## straight_lines

ridesarize said:


> Straight lines, did you plastic off the walls and windows in that black door spray room? I see windows and an entry door, and trim. If would have all that covered in black overspray if I didn't cover it and/or put cardboard on top of doors to stop spray-over.


No I didn't cover anything but the floor and the ceiling fan, the entire room will be painted, the windows got replaced this weekend. We did mask off the door ways to keep that room separate and the white trim elsewhere clean.

Almost done with this job, thought I overbid but looking like a near break even on the interior. Its this job..

http://www.painttalk.com/f24/interior-we-started-last-week-29168/


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## straight_lines

oldccm said:


> Again I like the syem. How does it work? I'm still using door stackers which are great on big jobs but smaller houses where all the doors fit in 1-2 rooms that looks pretty sweet


Just saw the post where you asked about the system for staging these doors. 

Its real simple we stand them up accordion style and screw a scrap bit of wood on top. When you stand them up this way it forms sorta like a V that is connected on the ends.


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## Danahy

straight_lines said:


> Just saw the post where you asked about the system for staging these doors.
> 
> Its real simple we stand them up accordion style and screw a scrap bit of wood on top. When you stand them up this way it forms sorta like a V that is connected on the ends.


And to answer the question as to why I always grab a huge mittfull of stir sticks every time I'm at the paint store, please see comment above. 



Mike.


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