# Looking to try out water based primer for cabinets. Anyone got reccomendations?



## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

I've been using coverstain or bin shellac for cabinets. I'd like to try out some water based primer in my airless for my personal cabinets, figure I should experiement on my house. Anyone have any reccomendations? 

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## SS_painting (Jan 11, 2020)

I would only use acrylic on MDF. But I hear Styks(sp) by insulx is a good product.

Honestly, I'd stick to BIN. 

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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

GF is supposed to have a good primer. never used it though
https://generalfinishes.com/wood-finishes-retail/water-based-primer/stain-blocker


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Latex wood undercoater from PPG, Fresh Start, XIM UMA, STIX, 

All good for any raw wood that doesnt have tannin bleed issues.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

If your burning through the finish at all, I'd be concerned about bleeding from the tannins or stain. I've switched from Stix to BIN because I now like to burn through the finish, especially on edges and corners for better adhesion.
However still using Stix (brush and roll) in home on the boxes as they don't get the same treatment as the doors. I cannot for the life of me get Stix to stop Fisheyeing on me when I spray it. Pretty much done with it.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

MrPowerful said:


> I've been using coverstain or bin shellac for cabinets. I'd like to try out some water based primer in my airless for my personal cabinets, figure I should experiement on my house. Anyone have any reccomendations?
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk


You might try the InslX product from Benjamin Moore called AquaLock Plus.

https://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us...ints-stains/product-catalog/ip/insl-x-primers


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## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

SS_painting said:


> I would only use acrylic on MDF. But I hear Styks(sp) by insulx is a good product.
> 
> Honestly, I'd stick to BIN.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Looks like this might be the best idea.


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## store021 (Mar 27, 2017)

PPG Seal Grip Gripper is a good primer to use on existing cabinets. It bonds and blocks stains (after 24 hours).


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## ParamountPaint (Aug 25, 2016)

SEALGRIP is a fine primer, but it sucks for tannin bleed and doesn't sand very well.

All in on the BIN, but coverstain will work in a pinch. BIN smells to high heaven for an hour, Coverstain is going to smell for at least a day.


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Go ahead and experiment with zinsser 123 "plus"


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

Renner is having great success and lots of people are loving their cabinet coatings


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mug said:


> Go ahead and experiment with zinsser 123 "plus"


I haven't tried this yet but am curious.. How's the adhesion, compared to Stix, and does it really block Tannin Bleed? Stix been letting me down lately..


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> mug said:
> 
> 
> > Go ahead and experiment with zinsser 123 "plus"
> ...



I actually did get it to block a water stain. Has to dry a few hours or overnight. It still shows. 
like it bled through until top coated. They state that it is encapsulated in the finish. 
I haven't fully tested it's tannin claim yet!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Zinsser smart prime looks promising but I have yet to try it. 

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

ParamountPaint said:


> SEALGRIP is a fine primer, but it sucks for tannin bleed and doesn't sand very well.
> 
> All in on the BIN, but coverstain will work in a pinch. BIN smells to high heaven for an hour, Coverstain is going to smell for at least a day.


Seal grip also has an oil base thats comparable to coverstain and it sands great.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Zinsser smart prime looks promising but I have yet to try it.
> 
> Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk


Weird it sounds exactly like the 123 plus..


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

Rbriggs82 said:


> Zinsser smart prime looks promising but I have yet to try it.
> 
> Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk


I have and it works great. Bonds to almost anything and excellent stain blocking.


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Rbriggs82 said:
> 
> 
> > Zinsser smart prime looks promising but I have yet to try it.
> ...



The TDS sheet reads smart prime is water based acrylic and the plus reads water based modified acrylic.


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## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

monarchski said:


> I have and it works great. Bonds to almost anything and excellent stain blocking.


How well does it sand? Would you use it on something like doors or bottom cabinets?


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## vwbowman (May 15, 2017)

*FISHeye STIX!*



finishesbykevyn said:


> If your burning through the finish at all, I'd be concerned about bleeding from the tannins or stain. I've switched from Stix to BIN because I now like to burn through the finish, especially on edges and corners for better adhesion.
> However still using Stix (brush and roll) in home on the boxes as they don't get the same treatment as the doors. I cannot for the life of me get Stix to stop Fisheyeing on me when I spray it. Pretty much done with it.


We had a bad batch in December of stix, from what I used it seemed to be one particular batch, maybe that is not the case. It is a great product between the fisheyes.:biggrin:


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## vwbowman (May 15, 2017)

Aqua Lock is also working well in cabinet shops for me. Sands easier that Stix.


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## dnj300 (Jan 17, 2018)

Id also recommended Stix..pretty impressive adhesion for a water based.
It won't sand like bin or oil based stuff, but if your goal is to get away from those primers then stix is way id go


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

vwbowman said:


> Aqua Lock is also working well in cabinet shops for me. Sands easier that Stix.


But hows the adhesion compared to stix? And the covering power? I haven't found a water based primer yet, that can stick like Stix. Yet, it doens't cover that well and doesn't stop tannin bleed, so still on the hunt. 
It's all sbout the adhesion on a repaint.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> But hows the adhesion compared to stix? And the covering power? I haven't found a water based primer yet, that can stick like Stix. Yet, it doens't cover that well and doesn't stop tannin bleed, so still on the hunt.
> 
> It's all sbout the adhesion on a repaint.


I've given up on that hunt and have accepted the fact that nothing beats bin on repaints. 

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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

I would second the vote for zinsser smart prime. Did 5 or 6 cabinet sets last year and no issues. One was oak and had major tannin bleed with aqua lock. Re-primed with smart prime and no bleed. I also agree with Kevyn about stix, fisheyes on me every time i spray.


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## Respec (Sep 13, 2015)

Stix has fish eyed on us too, but after a sand, it is fine. It doesn't block stains at all. Aqualock I use all the time too, but have to say I think its blocking capability is marginal, even when allowed to sit overnight. It has great adhesion, and generally whatever it doesn't hold back could be spot primed with BIN. I like it better than Bullseye 123. I think Bulleye is too watery. The Aqualock has a little more body, so it also helps to fill a little better than Bullseye.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

We’ve also had a lot of fish eye with Stix. We typically do 2 prime and 2 finish coats on cabinets. Spray doors and drawers in the shop. Do the boxes by hand fine finish roller. Typically the fish eyes disappear once into the finish coats but are planning on trying UMA on next job to see if less fish eye. Have tried multiple prep options to eliminate fish eye and Stix seems to be the common denominator. I think it has better adhesion than smart prime. Not as confident in smart prime going over old lacquer cabs. Also Found the synthetic shellac to gum up too much in sanding.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Damon T said:


> We’ve also had a lot of fish eye with Stix. We typically do 2 prime and 2 finish coats on cabinets. Spray doors and drawers in the shop. Do the boxes by hand fine finish roller. Typically the fish eyes disappear once into the finish coats but are planning on trying UMA on next job to see if less fish eye. Have tried multiple prep options to eliminate fish eye and Stix seems to be the common denominator. I think it has better adhesion than smart prime. Not as confident in smart prime going over old lacquer cabs. Also Found the synthetic shellac to gum up too much in sanding.


Was starting to think I was going crazy. And I'm sorry, but sanding out fisheyes is not an option. Those suckers are deep.! I've also tryed spraying Stix with HVLP, but it drys so fast that it blows chunks all over your finish which isn't good either. Although, if you backroll the Stix, it will eliminate the fisheye, but will have a texture. I started spraying BIN from an HVLP setup in the shop only on doors. So controlled, you can put on 1 super even coat.


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## Wutari (Nov 15, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Was starting to think I was going crazy. And I'm sorry, but sanding out fisheyes is not an option. Those suckers are deep.! I've also tryed spraying Stix with HVLP, but it drys so fast that it blows chunks all over your finish which isn't good either. Although, if you backroll the Stix, it will eliminate the fisheye, but will have a texture. I started spraying BIN from an HVLP setup in the shop only on doors. So controlled, you can put on 1 super even coat.


I keep asking the same question and nobody is responding. Why aren't you using lacquer for cabs? Is it a VOC thing in your area? Why? If you use waterborne products over a solvent borne product that's old and has years of cooking on it.. its going to fisheye.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Wutari said:


> I keep asking the same question and nobody is responding. Why aren't you using lacquer for cabs? Is it a VOC thing in your area? Why? If you use waterborne products over a solvent borne product that's old and has years of cooking on it.. its going to fisheye.


I don't use laquer, because it's super explosive and am not setup properly for that kind of ventilation. It also stinks to all heaven and would not use it on a residential setting. Plus we are brush and rolling alot of the bases in house.. What products are you specifically using and application process..?


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

This may be a bit off topic but does anybody else spray the boxes on site? Seems like most of you guys prefer rolling. I have been spraying on site, and like the results but it is definitely a lot of work masking off to spray spray in the kitchen. I was thinking of maybe trying a foam roller or short nap shatter-resistant on my next job instead of spraying (boxes only)


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> This may be a bit off topic but does anybody else spray the boxes on site? Seems like most of you guys prefer rolling. I have been spraying on site, and like the results but it is definitely a lot of work masking off to spray spray in the kitchen. I was thinking of maybe trying a foam roller or short nap shatter-resistant on my next job instead of spraying (boxes only)


 I totally agree. It depends on the kitchen for me. If I'm just doing the cabs, (AKA No Ceilings or trims etc) and it's a simple kitchen, brushing and rolling is way more efficent and less stressful. It also frees up my sprayer for the shop work..
If it's a huge reno, like the one I just did. (posted pics btw) where were tearing out all the backsplash and repainting everything. It's more worth it. Then While I'm spraying the cabs, I'll also spray the crowns and wainscoting etc. Sometimes I'll try to remove end panels and bring back to the shop also..


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Back with some hillbilly lab testing. Here is two coats of zinsser 123 plus followed by one coat of stock white cabinet coat over some old chip board with an ink stamp. It's not really Yellow, just the lighting.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

mug said:


> Back with some hillbilly lab testing. Here is two coats of zinsser 123 plus followed by one coat of stock white cabinet coat over some old chip board with an ink stamp. It's not really Yellow, just the lighting.


You might need some grain filler on that one mug..:wink:


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

finishesbykevyn said:


> mug said:
> 
> 
> > Back with some hillbilly lab testing. Here is two coats of zinsser 123 plus followed by one coat of stock white cabinet coat over some old chip board with an ink stamp. It's not really Yellow, just the lighting.
> ...


Indeed!


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## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

vwbowman said:


> Aqua Lock is also working well in cabinet shops for me. Sands easier that Stix.



I have a can of aqua lock I plan to use on some cabinets on a rental property with a cheap cup sprayer. I’ll post my findings! 


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## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

finishesbykevyn said:


> But hows the adhesion compared to stix? And the covering power? I haven't found a water based primer yet, that can stick like Stix. Yet, it doens't cover that well and doesn't stop tannin bleed, so still on the hunt.
> It's all sbout the adhesion on a repaint.



Would you find it worth it to use one coat stick and one coat say bin for tannin blocking? 


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## MrPowerful (Jul 16, 2020)

mug said:


> Back with some hillbilly lab testing. Here is two coats of zinsser 123 plus followed by one coat of stock white cabinet coat over some old chip board with an ink stamp. It's not really Yellow, just the lighting.



I’ve got almost the same experiment going. Except on the side of my house in what I’m tentatively calling the ghetto lab. 


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Zinsser smart prime is my go to


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

MrPowerful said:


> Would you find it worth it to use one coat stick and one coat say bin for tannin blocking?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've done that aproach for painting stained Oak.

First coat BIN. For the adhesion and stain blocking I also backbrush or roll it into the grain. 2nd coatis anything with a build, and is easily sandable. PPG Latec Wood undercoater or something similar.

I dont see any sense to 1st coat Stix, and 2nd Coat BIN though...


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## SS_painting (Jan 11, 2020)

Woodco said:


> I've done that aproach for painting stained Oak.
> 
> First coat BIN. For the adhesion and stain blocking I also backbrush or roll it into the grain. 2nd coatis anything with a build, and is easily sandable. PPG Latec Wood undercoater or something similar.
> 
> I dont see any sense to 1st coat Stix, and 2nd Coat BIN though...


What about a grain filler? Or would that require to much prep beforehand? 

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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

I thought I read somewhere that the majority of tannins are water soluble, which is why a solvent based primer is preferred...


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## mug (Dec 22, 2010)

Confirmed with the wonderful scientists at Rustoleum in an email. 
Zinsser 123 plus is the same as zinsser smart prime. 
123 plus is at box stores
Smart Prime is at specialty stores
One of those label things!


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

mug said:


> Confirmed with the wonderful scientists at Rustoleum in an email.
> Zinsser 123 plus is the same as zinsser smart prime.
> 123 plus is at box stores
> Smart Prime is at specialty stores
> One of those label things!


That's crazy, no wonder I couldn't find it anywhere! 

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## Sn0man (Sep 15, 2017)

I've had considerable success with MLC's Agualente wb primer / undercoater. Spray only. Very fast dry. Easy sand. Doesn't raise grain on MDF like most other wb primers do. It's been a while since I used it and just had a look at their site and it doesn't look like they make it anymore, but make a product called Agualente Plus now instead - I would assume it's their new version of the same product. 

I never cared much for the higher build acrylic primers the paint stores sell to use on cabinetry (aqualock, for instance). I found they never really adhered to clear finishes to my liking. Though i'm sure they're fine for most other applications.


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Well, I just did my first sample with Aqua Lock. It was stuck on there good after drying overnight. I was able to sand it to a powder 3 hours after spraying.

Tannins did bleed through the Aqua Lock, but so far nothing is coming through the finish. Maybe they're "locked" in....


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## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Bin's Shellac


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Too brittle. Not water based.


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## Sn0man (Sep 15, 2017)

Masterwork said:


> I was able to sand it to a powder 3 hours after spraying.



That's another reason I never cared much for those types of primers. The long dry to sand times. 

Tannin bleed? You shooting raw wood?


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## Masterwork (Sep 13, 2020)

Not sure what type of wood it was, actually. Some scraps from an old basement shelf. Raw, yes, but that's all I know.

I also did some old cabinet doors. It only had issues where the hinges were. Could be I didn't clean them well enough.


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