# sherwin duration satin vs ultra spec 500 eggshell



## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

ok. I have been completely disappointed with sherwin. their promar picture framed on me a while ago, they gave me duration matte and it still picture framed, then I put ultra spec low sheen over it and perfect. well, homeowner I was painting for now, had some leftover duration I had used in a different room, orangish, and I put 2 coats on half kitchen and it was picture framing and not covering. well, I said f this, got a gallon of ultra spec 500 to do rest of kitchen as a head 2 head. well, it covered n no picture framing.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

the first pic is 2 coats of duration. 2nd is the 2nd coat with ultra spec.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Is the Duration tinted with traditional UTC Colorant?


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

yes. it's a sherwin color.


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## Paint medics (Aug 8, 2015)

1/2 inch roller nap or 3/8?
makes a big difference . 
3/8 shows less framing versus 1/2 especially with deeper colors.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Paint medics said:


> 1/2 inch roller nap or 3/8?
> makes a big difference .
> 3/8 shows less framing versus 1/2 especially with deeper colors.



I know this!!! Yeah, it's 3/8" which is what is so frustrating. My sherwin rep admitted that they know that Promar 200 in flat and low sheens picture frame, but I now know their duration does it as well. I'm just posting these pics to show difference between paints. I applied them same and got a better result from a 28$ a gallon paint vs a 40$ gallon paint.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

There are plenty of reasons to dislike SW, but don't judge them by ProMar or INTERIOR Duration. Their Cashmere is great, exterior Duration is one of the best, their Kem Aqua kicks azz, and they've got a handfull of industrial products that rival anyones. 

If you're having good results with BM, you're not alone, and maybe there will never be another reason for you to have to use SW again. Just saying it would be hasty IMO to draw a conclusion based on a lower grade line of paint, or a notoriously inferior overpriced product like interior Duration.


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## AV Painting (Apr 25, 2012)

whats picture framing?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

duration interior sucks, but as mentioned, IF you have to use SW the cashmere is good stuff


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> I know this!!! Yeah, it's 3/8" which is what is so frustrating. My sherwin rep admitted that they know that Promar 200 in flat and low sheens picture frame, but I now know their duration does it as well. I'm just posting these pics to show difference between paints. I applied them same and got a better result from a 28$ a gallon paint vs a 40$ gallon paint.


Promar 200 picture framed 28 years ago. so why do so many people use it and nothing else? In fact at one point or another i have seen just about every product they make picture frame to some degree. I guess my question is why is this such a shock to everyone it happens to. It was the big reason we couldn't sell 200 when i worked for them. Now it's the most used paint there is.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Easy to blame the paint. Promar picture frames because its the paint? Biggest selling product nationwide. Four thousand stores sell on low average of 50 gals a day. That's 200,000 gallons a day. Could be the applicator or technique most of the time.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

paintpimp said:


> Easy to blame the paint. Promar picture frames because its the paint? Biggest selling product nationwide. Four thousand stores sell on low average of 50 gals a day. That's 200,000 gallons a day. Could be the applicator or technique most of the time.



That's why I put the 2 products side by side dude. Exact same applicator, exact same way applied, one result no picture framing, other does. Case closed.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

I agree cashmere is good, and duration produces good results, but based on all their other crap, why would I give them money for any products. Ppg makes acri-shield which is just as good as duration, if not then their permanizer is far superior to it. And why use cashmere, when ultra spec is just as good, and yet for cashmeres price point, I'll just go the extra 7$ and use regal.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

The reason I'm using promar is its rival is ultra spec, and my point was that a lower grade paint far surpassed sherwins upper echelon paint, duration, which means it will really kill promar in a head to head.
I'm sure most of you who use sherwin have accounts with them which makes it hard to cut the cord, but come on, there's far better paints out there.


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## WestEndPainting (Aug 29, 2014)

AV Painting said:


> whats picture framing?


www.sherwin-williams.com/.../uneven-color-picture-framing-hatbanding/

A non-uniform appearance of color that occurs when a wall is painted with a roller and the edges (where the roller could not reach) are "cut in" with a brush. The brushed areas generally appear darker, thus resembling the frame of apicture.



Sent from my SCH-i705 using Tapatalk


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

paintpimp said:


> Easy to blame the paint. Promar picture frames because its the paint? Biggest selling product nationwide. Four thousand stores sell on low average of 50 gals a day. That's 200,000 gallons a day. Could be the applicator or technique most of the time.


Just like we all know the McDouble is a great quality, awesome burger because they sell millions a day.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

paintpimp said:


> Easy to blame the paint. Promar picture frames because its the paint? Biggest selling product nationwide. Four thousand stores sell on low average of 50 gals a day. That's 200,000 gallons a day. Could be the applicator or technique most of the time.


Tell that to every painter in California that ever used Isoflat. The product isn't that good, it wasn't when i worked for them for ten years and it isn't now. Nor will it ever be. It's the biggest selling paint nationwide because of the free happy ending that everyone gets with it or something. Could be millions and millions of dollars spent on stores and sales reps and ass kissing to get it on every new build spec in the country. It's an antique. Literally. And it has been surpassed performance wise in it's price range by many, many different brands in that price range. It's a huge cash cow for SW, and everyone loves supporting SW's cash cow. That stuff doesn't cost more than $5.00 a gallon to make. Yet people will gladly spend $20-25 a gallon for it.

And FYI you can get it at Menard's under the Conco brand for much less then you typically pay for it at a SW store.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> That's why I put the 2 products side by side dude. Exact same applicator, exact same way applied, one result no picture framing, other does. Case closed.


Seen it happen hundreds of times.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

DrakeB said:


> Just like we all know the McDouble is a great quality, awesome burger because they sell millions a day.


Yeah. In and Out burger sucks because they only sell a couple hundred thousand a day.

But hey! Isn't Mcdonalds losing money hand over fist this year? Sooner or later the same thing will happen to SW. before long people will figure out that what they are buying isn't worth what they are paying for it.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Exactoman said:


> That's why I put the 2 products side by side dude. Exact same applicator, exact same way applied, one result no picture framing, other does. Case closed.



You confirmed what I said. Applicator.

Dude.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Yeah. In and Out burger sucks because they only sell a couple hundred thousand a day.
> 
> But hey! Isn't Mcdonalds losing money hand over fist this year? Sooner or later the same thing will happen to SW. before long people will figure out that what they are buying isn't worth what they are paying for it.



Yup, going dead broke.

Bad analogy by the way.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

paintpimp said:


> Yup, going dead broke.
> 
> Bad analogy by the way.


Is it? They are losing stock market value faster then at any time in their history. They are spending millions to try to figure out what to do to save their market share and they are failing. Across the country over 200 Mcdonald's restaurants will close by the end of the year. It may just be the start, but the ball is rolling down hill and they are struggling to stop it.

And comparing one of the largest fast food businesses to the largest fast paint business may not seem to be a good analogy to you, but if you pick up any basic business management text book one of the first things you will read is that all retail businesses are essentially the same in how they function. Only the product or service they provide differs. The management and marketing systems essentially function the same way.

Lets see, Good-better-best
promar700-promar400-promar200 the historical good,better best commercial paint lines at SW.

cheeseburger-double cheeseburger- Big Mac The historical good better best of Mcdonald's.

Is a Quarter pounder better? Is Duration better? Marginally.

Is an In And Out DoubleDouble better then a quarter pounder? Anthony Bourdan stops and gets one every time he gets off the plane in LA. But will he ever stop at a Mcdonald's? Hell no! But it's just a double cheeseburger also isn't it?

Is P&L Prohide gold better then promar 200? Do you have any idea? Have you ever tried them side by side in the SAME color? What about PPG Speedhide. I sold pm200 for ten years and Speedhide for nine. We played hell trying to sell pm200 to anybody, even the jobs that it was spec'd on.

We sold Speedhide to almost 80% of the jobs that had an "or equal" in the spec. How? Because it was far better then "equal" to PM 200. And that was in SW's back yard.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

And why do i have customers traveling as long as 3 hours to buy California Paint if SW is so good? I have regular customers that are 70-90 miles away. Even in Cincinnati, which is at least 180 miles. They buy from me every month. Why would a commercial painting company pass up probably 40-50 Sw, Home Depot, Glidden, PPG, Porter, Lowe's, Menard's, Coronado, and many independent stores just for a particular brand of paint?

When I opened I had an idea in my mind that i would like to service customers throughout the state. I just didn't realize it would happen so soon and through one store. I would have never thought that any professional painter would go that far just to buy paint. Granted there have been several direct ship orders but still, why wouldn't they just buy from the local SW store if there wasn't any difference in quality? I have a guy that makes regular trips from Zanesville to get California products. Why do you suppose that is?

I'm actually meeting with a contractor in Indianapolis to discuss selling California to him, the possibility being that i can meet him halfway with paint deliveries. Are there NO Sw stores in Indianapolis he could buy from? What has happened that makes him want to buy from a store in another state?

I frequently drive 45 miles to eat brisket at a bbq place in Wooster. There are plenty of bbq places between here and there. Why would i drive that far just to eat? Because it's that much better that's why. The principle is that if SW, and promar 200 in particular was such a good product, why wouldn't brands like Ben Moore and California been chewed up and spit out years ago. There are many painters who are willing to go out of their way to buy a higher quality product then what they can get at SW, that's why.

The biggest advantage SW has is the $7-8 billion cash reserves they are well known for having. When a local or even a national paint brand starts to have trouble in the market, SW can swoop in and buy them. Cash. And investors love that kind of thing. SW never actually built an "SW" factory until they had been in business for close to 55 years, all of their factories having been bought out from other paint companies that didn't have the funds to stay open. And they continue to be top dog when it comes to waiting for a competitor to fail. (Frazee, Parker, Comex, Kwal, and on and on in the last few years for example) That is their only true advantage over anyone else. It certainly is NOT their product and service quality. 

I guess i should have put put this in the rant thread.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Game over


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

PACman said:


> And why do i have customers traveling as long as 3 hours to buy California Paint if SW is so good? I have regular customers that are 70-90 miles away. Even in Cincinnati, which is at least 180 miles. They buy from me every month. Why would a commercial painting company pass up probably 40-50 Sw, Home Depot, Glidden, PPG, Porter, Lowe's, Menard's, Coronado, and many independent stores just for a particular brand of paint?
> 
> When I opened I had an idea in my mind that i would like to service customers throughout the state. I just didn't realize it would happen so soon and through one store. I would have never thought that any professional painter would go that far just to buy paint. Granted there have been several direct ship orders but still, why wouldn't they just buy from the local SW store if there wasn't any difference in quality? I have a guy that makes regular trips from Zanesville to get California products. Why do you suppose that is?
> 
> ...


That you successfully sell to painters no where near you in terms of proximity is very impressive, and speaks volumes.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Make sure you get paid


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Paint pimp has officially been muted. who is this guy and I'd love to see the jobs he does for 50$ for his mother's best friend.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

He's a troll I guess. He helps professionals the best he can professionally. He doesn't attack and put down his competition.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

paintpimp said:


> You confirmed what I said. Applicator.
> 
> Dude.


Didn't he say that he did the ProMar first and the Ultra Spec second? If you're implying that the applicator was worn out (even though I have a feeling he meant the same applicator as in, both white dove 3/8" nap, not as in literally the same applicator) then you'd think he would have gotten the reverse of his results.

Not trying to put anyone down. Just having a calm, logical discussion. My only point is that quantity =\= quality, and the only people who don't agree are the people blasting out huge quantities.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Different applicators with different products give different results


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Exactoman said:


> Paint pimp has officially been muted. who is this guy and I'd love to see the jobs he does for 50$ for his mother's best friend.



You Didn't need to get mean. 

I'm not muted. I don't want to take 25 minutes of my life disputing everything that was accused.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

paintpimp said:


> You Didn't need to get mean.
> 
> I'm not muted. I don't want to take 25 minutes of my life disputing everything that was accused.


You can block people on this website, so you are muted for him, actually.

What applicator would you say would make ProMar hatband but not UltraSpec? Just curious.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Defense is never an attack. I made a point about promar 200 based on ten years of selling it, (or trying to anyway) and you came back with the SW company line about how many gallons get sold every year. I can spot the SW handbook a mile away. I pretty much wrote half of it as a training store. Objective #1? Sell the product to your employees. Brainwash them to believe there is nothing like it on the market. Then turn them loose. After a few years, and after working for three or four more paint companies, they will realize what a line of crap they were fed. About the products, the marketing, their promotion possibilities, and on and on. It happens everyday at a SW store somewhere across the country. And when a competitor has a loooong history of being the way SW is, then only a fool wouldn't say anything about them.

I seem to remember quite a few threads badmouthing Certa pro, Student painters, blow and go from Idaho and many others. As long as those people complaining and bad mouthing them keep enabling them by buying from the devil himself i will show no sympathy to either them or SW.


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> There are plenty of reasons to dislike SW, but don't judge them by ProMar or INTERIOR Duration. Their Cashmere is great, exterior Duration is one of the best, their Kem Aqua kicks azz, and they've got a handfull of industrial products that rival anyones.
> 
> If you're having good results with BM, you're not alone, and maybe there will never be another reason for you to have to use SW again. Just saying it would be hasty IMO to draw a conclusion based on a lower grade line of paint, or a notoriously inferior overpriced product like interior Duration.


Here is my opinion on both Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore head to head comparison. Aura blows the doors off of emerald. Regal is far superior to duration, cashmere or super paint. Ben is far superior to both cashmere and super paint. Ultra spec is above and beyond both Promar 200 and super paint. I have used thousands of gallons of both and have never really had any issues with Ben Moore. Time and time again based on this website most painters have mixed results with SW. Whereas Benjamin Moore most painters have superior results with no problems. Prices are always going to vary from city to city. I have found in most major metropolitan areas that have both companies, Benjamin Moore will be the same price as a compatible SW product but vastly superior. Smaller cities and rural areas have a tendency to have one company that has better pricing than the other based on the stronghold of that company in that area


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## Zoomer (Dec 17, 2011)

paintpimp said:


> Easy to blame the paint. Promar picture frames because its the paint? Biggest selling product nationwide. Four thousand stores sell on low average of 50 gals a day. That's 200,000 gallons a day. Could be the applicator or technique most of the time.


I disagree with you on this statement. Having used quite a few gallons of PM 200, super paint, and duration, these issues have occurred more than once for us as well. Being a third-generation company I do believe we know how to apply paint with the best of them. We've never really had an issue picture framing with Benjamin Moore or for that matter some other paint manufacturers. We have had these issues with SW and in fact have had SW refund us our money because of these issues. It is always going to be a problem no matter what anybody says


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Zoomer said:


> Here is my opinion on both Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore head to head comparison. Aura blows the doors off of emerald. Regal is far superior to duration, cashmere or super paint. Ben is far superior to both cashmere and super paint. Ultra spec is above and beyond both Promar 200 and super paint. I have used thousands of gallons of both and have never really had any issues with Ben Moore. Time and time again based on this website most painters have mixed results with SW. Whereas Benjamin Moore most painters have superior results with no problems. Prices are always going to vary from city to city. I have found in most major metropolitan areas that have both companies, Benjamin Moore will be the same price as a compatible SW product but vastly superior. Smaller cities and rural areas have a tendency to have one company that has better pricing than the other based on the stronghold of that company in that area



Okay.


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## Exactoman (Mar 28, 2013)

Zoomer said:


> I disagree with you on this statement. Having used quite a few gallons of PM 200, super paint, and duration, these issues have occurred more than once for us as well. Being a third-generation company I do believe we know how to apply paint with the best of them. We've never really had an issue picture framing with Benjamin Moore or for that matter some other paint manufacturers. We have had these issues with SW and in fact have had SW refund us our money because of these issues. It is always going to be a problem no matter what anybody says



This is precisely what I've been saying...except for those who can't take word for it I put it head to head on a second coat and each got 2 walls! I'm using a 3/8" nap roller, silver tip brush, so no reason whatsoever as far as tools for there to be a picture frame. 
Sherwin has given me duration matte to fix a promar picture frame before and the picture frame didn't go away with the matte, and didn't get fixed until I put ultra spec on wall.
These are the facts people. Stop using subpar paint that can cost you money in the future and make your customers unhappy with subpar results. 
If you are saying ben moore is more expensive in your area, then pass those costs on to your customers or refigure it into your bid.
This site is for shared knowledge meant to help, not to criticize facts!!!


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Exactoman said:


> This is precisely what I've been saying...except for those who can't take word for it I put it head to head on a second coat and each got 2 walls! I'm using a 3/8" nap roller, silver tip brush, so no reason whatsoever as far as tools for there to be a picture frame.
> Sherwin has given me duration matte to fix a promar picture frame before and the picture frame didn't go away with the matte, and didn't get fixed until I put ultra spec on wall.
> These are the facts people. Stop using subpar paint that can cost you money in the future and make your customers unhappy with subpar results.
> If you are saying ben moore is more expensive in your area, then pass those costs on to your customers or refigure it into your bid.
> This site is for shared knowledge meant to help, not to criticize facts!!!


Side by side comparisons are the only way to compare to products. And side by side there are many paint brands that blow comparatively priced SW products away. And the higher up you go in the SW hierarchy, the more THEY know it too. But their jobs are to sell the stuff and to come up with more and more schemes to keep their cash cow product lines the largest selling brand in the market. If that means i am bad mouthing Sw then i guess i am.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PACman said:


> Is it? They are losing stock market value faster then at any time in their history. They are spending millions to try to figure out what to do to save their market share and they are failing. Across the country over 200 Mcdonald's restaurants will close by the end of the year. It may just be the start, but the ball is rolling down hill and they are struggling to stop it.
> 
> And comparing one of the largest fast food businesses to the largest fast paint business may not seem to be a good analogy to you, but if you pick up any basic business management text book one of the first things you will read is that all retail businesses are essentially the same in how they function. Only the product or service they provide differs. The management and marketing systems essentially function the same way.
> 
> ...



SW stock has been rising for quite a while now. For better or worse. I'm not up on McD's current performance but their Pink Slime and other QC issues certainly haven't helped. Personally I'll eat almost anywhere before there.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> SW stock has been rising for quite a while now. For better or worse. I'm not up on McD's current performance but their Pink Slime and other QC issues certainly haven't helped. Personally I'll eat almost anywhere before there.


rising stock doesn't really mean much in the big picture. If you read the Wall Street Journal and USA today, there has been quite a few reports that Mcdonald's is struggling to keep up with the higher end fast food restaurants. They are losing quite a bit of market share.


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