# 2- Butoxyethanol (butyl cellosolve) as acrylic paint retarder



## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

SW kem aqua plus has this listed as the retarder to use. It is a glycol ether from a little bit of reading. 

I've seen documents reference this from not dangerous (approved for food use) to mildly dangerous to a possible carcinogen with no safe lower limit. 

Out of curiosity it was mentioned in another thread that the new formula of ppgs breakthrough is missing this ingredient. Which got me thinking and googling. 

Has or does anyone use this chemical as a thinner for acrylic based paints to either thin or retard dry times with hvlp or conventional spray equipment? It is the slowest evaporating of the commonly available solvents. 


Seems like it is a a VOC PPG decided to ax to meet paint voc limits.

Apparently it can dissolve both oil and acrylic resins.

Any smart individuals have any insights? Seems like it might be any option for turbine hvlp shooters and acrylics.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Kem Aqua Plus recommends deionized water for a reducer. Why are you looking for a retarder?

The SW KA TDS does recommends Butyl for mainly clean up, but can be used to retard the paint for apparently better air release. I would stick with the water reduction.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes butyll is nasty but its also in tons of household cleaners. Even those that claim to be green. I use it all the time in our pressure cleaning business. 

Using it as a retarder with KA helps with flow and leveling and will prevent mirco foaming from ruining the finish. It gives those bubbles time to pop before the coating skims over.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Is there a reason you wouldn't just use something like the latex retarder from XIM? 

I'm sure NACE will chime in on this subject eventually.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes I do and have used xim and floetrol. 

I wanted to try to have a technical discussion about butyl cellsolve. It seems it is an ingredient in some acrylic paints that is either being reduced or removed in the low VOC formulations. 

Since it was a chemical already in use in paints we use, it would seem logical it might be an avenue worth exploring as there should be no compatibility issues.


Dow and other manufacturers have data sheets on the chemical. I have read them but they appear to be more geared to paint manufacturers. 

http://www.dow.com/en-us/markets-and-solutions/products/cellosolvesolvent/butylcellosolvesolvent/

Sherwin Williams doesn't seem to have a data sheet available online but the closest store does carry it locally by the gallon.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Yes butyll is nasty but its also in tons of household cleaners. Even those that claim to be green. I use it all the time in our pressure cleaning business.
> 
> Using it as a retarder with KA helps with flow and leveling and will prevent mirco foaming from ruining the finish. It gives those bubbles time to pop before the coating skims over.



Any idea if the butyl cellosolve can be used with the ka+ surfacer? It's only listed on the cc-f64 tds for surfacer cleanup but listed in the white topcoat for retarding. 

Their OEM tech line wasn't much help. Guy said to try a small batch thinned no more than 2%. 

Was gonna shoot some more test pieces when I got done working today but it started raining.

I've thinned the ka+ surfacer with 5% distilled water previously and it's almost what it needs to be with the turbine hvlp. 

In all honesty it doesn't spray too bad initially but once the turbine air starts heating up Im still getting a combination of dry spray and orange peel. Orange peel if I try to lay it on thicker and dry spray if I try to lay it on lighter. It needs a few minutes to level a smidge. 

I realize it's a surfacer and not a topcoat but it should still shoot and lay down enough that the result should just require a quick scuff sand and not major work between coats?


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

For the record no adverse effects on ka+ surfacer retarded with 2% butyl cellosolve. Still dried and sanded within prescribed amount of time.

Much better result than thinning with distilled water @ 5%. Surface felt smooth and obviously covered better than when reduced with water. 

I'd like to try 3%-4% next chance I get. I'm not sure if it's my particular turbine or what but the coatings out of this system seem to need all the extra time they can. 

I also tried some of the 5% reduced with 2% cellosolve and it definitely was a fine line between wet and running on verticles.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

sayn3ver said:


> For the record no adverse effects on ka+ surfacer retarded with 2% butyl cellosolve. Still dried and sanded within prescribed amount of time.
> 
> Much better result than thinning with distilled water @ 5%. Surface felt smooth and obviously covered better than when reduced with water.
> 
> ...


I'm hesitant to try KA+ on cabinets because of the verticals running. I'm sure it is great when spraying flat but do you spray them both sides on wooden hangars? I'd be worried about the boxes and Kitchen islands running.

Does anyone use KA+ on a regular basis with success?


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

You are asking the wrong person. I'm just trying to get into spraying trim when needed and some custom build in stuff. Currently playing with the sprayer when I can. 

Without thinning with water and simply regarding the surfacer seems to hang pretty good shooting through my capspray . I haven't used the topcoat yet. 

Plan on dedicating some practice time with breakthrough or similar for exterior door repaints.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

sayn3ver said:


> Any idea if the butyl cellosolve can be used with the ka+ surfacer? It's only listed on the cc-f64 tds for surfacer cleanup but listed in the white topcoat for retarding.
> 
> Their OEM tech line wasn't much help. Guy said to try a small batch thinned no more than 2%.
> 
> ...


Not sure how I missed this thread initially, but I've been using butyl cellosolve for a while now, both as a retarder and, (like Tommy @ Straight Lines), use it to boost an occasional mix when power washing). I'll typically add anywhere from 2-5% when using it with acrylics. One thing that will help your situation immensely, (if you're not doing this already), is to double the hose length on your turbine. A good general rule is turbines can effectively handle twice the hose length that came with the unit, so if your rig came with 25', get another 25' section and combine them. The extra 25' will do wonders in helping to cool the paint enough before it hits the surface. With the extra 25' you'll also be able to store your HVLP outside or wherever the coolest place would be, so the rig itself is taking in cooler air, which also helps to minimize dry-spray issues.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

stelzerpaintinginc. said:


> Not sure how I missed this thread initially, but I've been using butyl cellosolve for a while now, both as a retarder and, (like Tommy @ Straight Lines), use it to boost an occasional mix when power washing). I'll typically add anywhere from 2-5% when using it with acrylics. One thing that will help your situation immensely, (if you're not doing this already), is to double the hose length on your turbine. A good general rule is turbines can effectively handle twice the hose length that came with the unit, so if your rig came with 25', get another 25' section and combine them. The extra 25' will do wonders in helping to cool the paint enough before it hits the surface. With the extra 25' you'll also be able to store your HVLP outside or wherever the coolest place would be, so the rig itself is taking in cooler air, which also helps to minimize dry-spray issues.



Thanks for the input. Will pick up an extra length of hose in the very near future. Seems like an easy fix. Initial cost is more than thinner/retarder but time and money spent will be recouped quickly if it does indeed make a difference on air temps at the nozzle. 

Is there a specific acrylic product you have had success with in terms of regarding with cellosolve? I'm assuming it would be OK at around 2% with any 100% acrylic? Would like to use it in breakthrough since I get it locally at a good price and is interior/exterior. 

I'm looking for a hvlp compatible exterior primer as well. 
Lots of good products for brush/roll/airless but hvlp compatible products definitely harder to find.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

5% max in acrylics. it is a component in several "latex" flow additives. It also works a trick to help waterborne clears level and adhere better. BUT you are playing paint chemist here so don't say I didn't warn you! It can cause problems if used in an incompatible product as it ages. What an incompatible product is is the question. Idk. I'm not a paint chemist.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Well someone on here (maybe you?) Said it was a missing ingredient on the breakthrough 50 vs breakthrough 250. 

I'm no chemist either. 

It seems too much cellosolve will prevent the coating from hardening / curing or so internet gossip suggests. 

Same possible outcome to using too much or the generic Latex extenders no?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have gone past spec before reducing to get the desired flow and leveling. Some times site conditions require it. Just test what ever you do before doing large production runs. 

When spraying verticals do a tack coat first and then a full coat. I usually mist and put a fan or the air hose on it until it gets really sticky. That will help you with runs and sags. 

Still get them when working with KA. The great thing about this product is dry and cure time, and you can blade off the damaged area sand and reshoot it. When doing face frames and I get a run we fix it and mask off all but the repaired area and respray. Easy fixes.

Also the best advice for when spraying KA is to not get concerned about the finish laying perfectly flat. Many times when you spray it doesn't get full coverage and looks orange peely. Give it 10 minutes and its like glass.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Noted will try a tack coat. Though prior to the butyl and water thinning it wasn't necessary as it was almost dry upon delivery. 

Any suggestions on a water borne exterior primer, similar in viscosity to kem aqua plus or breakthrough? 

If not waterborne, another oil or other primer for wood, preprimed wood or painted wood and something different for cellular pvc...tho azek says to topcoat with 100% acrylic only with lrv 55+.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

For PVC I would skip the primer and go right to a premium 100 % acrylic paint.


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## Formulator (May 28, 2008)

sayn3ver said:


> SW kem aqua plus has this listed as the retarder to use. It is a glycol ether from a little bit of reading.
> 
> I've seen documents reference this from not dangerous (approved for food use) to mildly dangerous to a possible carcinogen with no safe lower limit.
> 
> ...


Butyl Cellosolve is a glycol ether that is commonly used as a coalescent in acrylic paints. 

I saw somewhere that someone said that it evaporates very slowly, however (if my memory serves me correct) it is one of the fastest evaporating of the commonly used coalescents.

Butyl Cellosolve > DPnB > Texanol > Oxsol (Fastest to slowest)

It is a VOC and many manufacturers are removing it from their formulations not only for that reason, but also because it is on the DSL list in Canada. So if you want your product to be able to be sold in all of NA, then it can't have butyl cellosolve. 

The replacement for this is commonly PnB.

It should be compatible with most acrylic paints that you use, but as with every solvent, it has the potential to shock the resin in the paint and cause particles to appear.


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## sayn3ver (Jan 9, 2010)

Can you explain the shocking of resin. I wasn't sure if that happened to me or not with the butyl cellosolve in the surfacer. I popped the gallon open and it looked kinda ugly (the other gallons looked better that I have sprayed). 

I use a mixer mate to stir and dispense the gallon into my gun. I added the 2% butyl real slowly and Incorporated why dripping the butyl into the gallon. 

After my test pieces I shot some trim and it was the first time I had a PPS cup filter clog (near the end of my spray session ) which required me to stop and rinse it. 


I chaulked it up to a bad gallon but maybe it did shock the surfacer. 

I also have a question about tip size. 
Been shooting the capspray #3 (1.3mm) and like the mist like pattern. However I have been told it may be contributing to my dryspray problem. Titan doesn't have a 1.5/1.6 so it jumps up to the #4 1.8mm. 

Do you think the 1.8mm will help with dryspray? I can put the coat on wet with the 1.3 but as a session progresses and the turbine heats up (1hr run time) it becomes and inssue of dryspray regardless of how open I increase the fluid adjustment.


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## stelzerpaintinginc. (May 9, 2012)

Formulator said:


> Butyl Cellosolve is a glycol ether that is commonly used as a coalescent in acrylic paints.
> 
> I saw somewhere that someone said that it evaporates very slowly, however (if my memory serves me correct) it is one of the fastest evaporating of the commonly used coalescents.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

sayn3ver said:


> Can you explain the shocking of resin. I wasn't sure if that happened to me or not with the butyl cellosolve in the surfacer. I popped the gallon open and it looked kinda ugly (the other gallons looked better that I have sprayed).
> 
> I use a mixer mate to stir and dispense the gallon into my gun. I added the 2% butyl real slowly and Incorporated why dripping the butyl into the gallon.
> 
> ...


It always looks like crud in the bucket. I always paddle mix and strain before use. Dryspray shouldn't be an issue with the surfacer.


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