# Cigarette Smoke



## TWPainting

I have spent most of my ten years in the business working on new construction but with the conditions of the market in the area have had to move to residential repaints. 

So my questions is about a house that has heavy cigarette smoke built up on walls and trim. I had some thoughts about starting by washing as much off as I could then priming before starting any finish. Its some extra labor I'm not sure the customer wants. Wondering if I am on the right track. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I have spent sometime reading on this site and haven't seen anything on this topic.

Travis


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## Brian

The approach you describe is how we do it. Otherwise, the tar and nicotine will bleed through the new paint.

Brian Phillips


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## TWPainting

That is what I was worried about is the bleeding


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## [email protected]

Do these folks live in this house? You said it's a repaint, but I wasn't sure if it was a lived in home.

Cleaning is always good. But if your using an oil primer (recommended) and there are no significant nicotine runs on the wall or spotting on the trim, You may just as well skip the cleaning. Nothing is going to penetrate through oil primer. Then again: A good washing with TSP or anything that can break through oil is a plus and you may not have to prime if the cleaning is done well. Pick your battle.


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## [email protected]

The Last one I did like this we top coated in oil for the wall and ceiling. besides priming in oil.


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## JTP

*Wash it*

I would wash off the residue. This type of staining is usually fairly easy to remove. TSP or TSP substitute in garden sprayer, mix with a general concentrated cleaner of your choice, let it set and work, come behind with a sponge and or sponge mop. Wipe excess moisture off. Then, prime with BIN, or Oil Stain Killer of your preference. The cleaning is worth the effort and I would include this in your pricing structure.

JTP


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## slickshift

JTP said:


> This type of staining is usually fairly easy to remove.


You have been very lucky
I would not categorized nic stains as easy
Though they can clean up well
I find that often they do not

I still do (and recommend) the process you outlined, but I'm not sure I could say even half the time it cleans up easy (actually free of nic before sealing..."removed")...I would say less then half

Hence the reason for the BIN/Alkyd sealer


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## Mopaint

Don't waste time cleaning I would go right with the alcohol based sealer, BIN or Incolac. Don't waste money on Kilz 2 in this case either. Trust Me. MOPAINT


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## slickshift

Any money spent on Kilz2 is wasted anyway...well not actually wasted

Using Kilz2 kinda like bending over to pick up the soap in the prison shower...you _might_ get away with it without getting...uh...well...you know


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## CApainter

Most places that had nico stains, we'd blow out with BIN, then finish with KM 550 flat. We also used alkyd flat when it was available through Hoffman's paint.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to you East Coasters.


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## slickshift

Familiar with the concept, if not the actual products
We can still get Sani-Flat oil-based flat out here
It's been re-named Calcimine ReCoater, but it's the same stuff
The name change was to keep it legal
As it's now a specialty primer, you'd never use it for a top coat right....


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## Boden Painting

I usually wipe down trim with some Simple Green sprayed on a rag. then prime.

btw, I was born and raised in Concord, my Mom still lives there. Great town.


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## TWPainting

*Thanks*

Thanks guys for the input. I have included a washing and priming into the price if they don't want to do it for the price I don't need the aggravation. 

Kilz 2 is not a good product used it once and will never use it again. Priming will be an oil with sealing capabilities.

Thanks again this was my first post and it was very helpful as most everything has been on this site.


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## DW Custom Painting

No washing, (waste of time) Zinssers cover stain!!!!

DONE, Finish w/ whatever you want.


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## Slingah

DW Custom Painting said:


> No washing, (waste of time) Zinssers cover stain!!!!
> 
> DONE, Finish w/ whatever you want.


I'll 2nd the Coverstain by Zinsser....


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## DW Custom Painting

:thumbup:


matt the painter said:


> I'll 2nd the Coverstain by Zinsser....


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## PaintProfessor

I think the true test is repainting the inside of a bar/tavern. I did this last year and everything turned out perfect! I attempted to clean the wall with TSP, but found out real quick that that was a complete waste of time! Don't even wet the sponge, it isn't worth it! 

We ended up using SW Pro-Block Oil Primer, it worked awesome and not just to cover the nicotine stains, but to topcoat. We only put once coat of primer and one coat of a tan paint(ProMar200).

If you do this, it is all you need to do. Sherwin-Williams will tell you to wash the walls before you prime, but trust me, you won't need to.


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## bender088

*cigaret smoke*



TWPainting said:


> I have spent most of my ten years in the business working on new construction but with the conditions of the market in the area have had to move to residential repaints.
> 
> So my questions is about a house that has heavy cigarette smoke built up on walls and trim. I had some thoughts about starting by washing as much off as I could then priming before starting any finish. Its some extra labor I'm not sure the customer wants. Wondering if I am on the right track. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I have spent sometime reading on this site and haven't seen anything on this topic.
> 
> Travis


ya im painttin over cigaret smoke damage i have used a oil base primer as told to do and a laytex paint and yet it is still bleeding throw any suggestions on wat to do all so tried cleaning it off before paintting and it still bleeds throw the woman is a chain smoker


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## bender088

yes i am paintting a house with mager cigaret smoke damage i have cleaned the walls and oil primered them and used a laytex paint any suggestions on how to stop the bleeding throw


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## Workaholic

bender088 said:


> ya im painttin over cigaret smoke damage i have used a oil base primer as told to do and a laytex paint and yet it is still bleeding throw any suggestions on wat to do all so tried cleaning it off before paintting and it still bleeds throw the woman is a chain smoker


Are you a professional 088, do you paint for a living? 
Feel free to go to the intro page to let us get to know you and your business better. http://www.painttalk.com/f3/


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## BC_Painter

bender088 said:


> ya im painttin over cigaret smoke damage i have used a oil base primer as told to do and a laytex paint and yet it is still bleeding throw any suggestions on wat to do all so tried cleaning it off before paintting and it still bleeds throw the woman is a chain smoker


B.I.N. the stuff


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## CApainter

bender088 said:


> yes i am paintting a house with mager cigaret smoke damage i have cleaned the walls and oil primered them and used a laytex paint any suggestions on how to stop the bleeding throw


Hi,

What oil base primer did you yooz?


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## hammerheart14

BC_Painter said:


> B.I.N. the stuff


this man knows what he's talking about!!!!!!


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## chrisn

bender088 said:


> ya im painttin over cigaret smoke damage i have used a oil base primer as told to do and a laytex paint and yet it is still bleeding throw any suggestions on wat to do all so tried cleaning it off before paintting and it still bleeds throw the woman is a chain smoker


 
Not enough, an oil basd STAIN blocking primer is called for.You should know that .:whistling2:


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## johnthepainter

bin.


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## TJ Paint

this is painting 101. coverstain or bin. Have them hire a cleaner if they want, or get an estimate. Your bid should look good in comparison when you tell them you can eliminate them hiring a cleaning company by using a special primer. Make money.


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## Capt-sheetrock

As a chain smoker for 30 years,,,, Last time i re-painted my home, I went in and told the guy, give me 3 5'ers. Tint em Nicotine yellow. Covered in one coat, didn't have to prime or nuttin.

BTW, i don't think oil base primers do anything cept make you feel like ya did something. Well they do feed the mold,,,,,


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## DCW

Washing is a wast of time!
In holland we may use in case of sigarette/fire damage a solvent based latex. I don't know if it's the right translation but (mount tine?) is one component of the latex


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## PaintMe201

ive never recomended bin for smoke cause the zinsser rep told me years ago that the alcohol in the product can react with the nicotine... but obviously all u guys use it so maybe ill start to sell it for that then


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## NaeGan

This is just my opinion, but I would still wash it first because if they were HEAVY smokers, then dust, pet hair, and other things will stick to the nicotine film. It doesn't have to be completely clean, but the gumminess needs to come off. On trim the nicotine will leave a texture where they have touched it on a regular basis. 
Again, this is just my opinion. Not trying to contradict anyone.
Then BIN all they way. Blocks everything.


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## Capt-sheetrock

Haveing re-sprayed ceilings (pop-corn) for years. I have come to realize a few things. 

1) Kilz-2 works just as good (or bad) as bin or zinnser
2) If you want to kill the stain, you MUST treat the wost offenders with bleach, till they they quit looking black and bold 
3) Bleach, sprayed on a ceiling, 24 hours prior to priming it with stain blocker (any brand) will fix the problem.
4) bleach is the the BEST stain killer on the market,,,(its cheap too)

I would like to add that I am a chain smoker, and nicotine steaks my walls at home. I know how to fix the problem. BLEACH,,, 

Embrace the Bleach !!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


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## aaron61

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Haveing re-sprayed ceilings (pop-corn) for years. I have come to realize a few things.
> 
> 1) Kilz-2 works just as good (or bad) as bin or zinnser
> 2) If you want to kill the stain, you MUST treat the wost offenders with bleach, till they they quit looking black and bold
> 3) Bleach, sprayed on a ceiling, 24 hours prior to priming it with stain blocker (any brand) will fix the problem.
> 4) bleach is the the BEST stain killer on the market,,,(its cheap too)
> 
> I would like to add that I am a chain smoker, and nicotine steaks my walls at home. I know how to fix the problem. BLEACH,,,
> 
> Embrace the Bleach !!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


I would have never thought of bleach....We do allot of work for ServPro and I have never seen their cleaning crews use bleach.HHHMMMMM


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## Capt-sheetrock

aaron61 said:


> I would have never thought of bleach....We do allot of work for ServPro and I have never seen their cleaning crews use bleach.HHHMMMMM


Try it, just pick a small test area, and take a chance !!!!!!


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## TJ Paint

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Haveing re-sprayed ceilings (pop-corn) for years. I have come to realize a few things.
> 
> 1) Kilz-2 works just as good (or bad) as bin or zinnser
> 
> 
> 4) bleach is the the BEST stain killer on the market,,,(its cheap too)
> 
> I would like to add that I am a chain smoker, and nicotine steaks my walls at home. I know how to fix the problem. BLEACH,,,
> 
> Embrace the Bleach !!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


I guess my exeriernce has been different than yours as far as kilz 2 being as good as zinnser. I've found kilz 2 performance much poorer. But yeah, bleach kills stains, it also smells up a room pretty good. So does an oil or alcohol based primer.


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## NaeGan

I have had the same experience with kilz 2. Just haven't had good luck with it. I don't even use Kilz anymore. Haven't used it for over a year. The last time I used Kilz 2 I put on 2 coats, the stains still came through and I ended up going over it with BIN. Cost me 2 gals of KILZ and my time.


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## Paint and Hammer

I'm in the "don't bother washing" camp. 

Whomever said, "easy"...I hate to see what you consider "hard". I've done 5 heavy smoked in repaints before the new owner moved in. The first few I TSP'd like crazy...buckets of water, the nicotine runs and runs, then rinse, rinse, and rinse some more. Maybe I don't classify this as 'easy' as I freakin' can't stand washing walls. 

Then I used BIN...no bleed through....don't bother washing unless it would make you 'feel' better and you could make money.

Lets assume your using a quality top coat?


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## Woody

Alcohol based BIN..... charge for cleaning if they work during the day.
"yea...the cleaners just left. can you put my money in a brown lunch bag ?"


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## Woody

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Try it, just pick a small test area, and take a chance !!!!!!



Did you ever buy those front teeth ?


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## straight_lines

slickshift said:


> You have been very lucky
> I would not categorized nic stains as easy
> Though they can clean up well
> I find that often they do not
> 
> I still do (and recommend) the process you outlined, but I'm not sure I could say even half the time it cleans up easy (actually free of nic before sealing..."removed")...I would say less then half
> 
> Hence the reason for the BIN/Alkyd sealer


 Depends on the finish that is there, on satin or above I would remove as much as possible with denatured alcohol, 409 or another tar remover. Flat walls you will wash until the finish comes off but not get it all.

It would be akin to not washing an exterior and priming over something on the substrate if you didn't try to remove the tar.

Of course all that depends on if the customer wants to pay for all that labor.


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## Capt-sheetrock

Woody said:


> Did you ever buy those front teeth ?


Front teeth??? Pahleeze,,,,,

I bought an ENTIRE set !!!!!!!! Top and Bottom, thank ya !!!


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## hammerheart14

Why go with the second best? Bin is better than cover stain.


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## nEighter

Let's get this straight.. B.I.N. is a shellac, and coverstain is an oil based primer. I would use B.I.N. anyday over the alternatives.. faster drying and the stain blocking ability is not in the same field as the coverstain. Really you have to get technical or scientific to understand what compound (paint) u need for a certain stain (source of stain). I would bet a shellac over a oil based any day.


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## Woody

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Front teeth??? Pahleeze,,,,,
> 
> I bought an ENTIRE set !!!!!!!! Top and Bottom, thank ya !!!


The girls will be happy !!


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## Capt-sheetrock

Woody said:


> The girls will be happy !!


Oh they are, see i have a set for work, ya know, kinda stained and crooked, BUT I have a set of "store-boughts" that are super white and straight for "nights on the town". 

Ya got to be prepared brother !!!!:yes:


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## [email protected]

I have had nicotine come throght bin but not good oil primer. Kilz is good for a lot of things but it doesn't do this for me


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## NaeGan

I'm really not trying to be a contrarian here, but I'm not sure how the nicotine came through. It blocks tannin, knot holes, water stains, and you are required to use it on a smoke rehab, not oil. So I don't understand how it would go through BIN. If there's something I don't know enlighten me.


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## chrisn

contrarian 


We don't allow them here:whistling2:


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## [email protected]

I don't know how it get"s throuht. All I know is that on BAD stains when you top coat it rises to be on top with Bin. That is why the last one I did. I when with oil for primer and top coat. Pealsonel friend two to three packs a day type person. In a one bed room apmt.


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## TJ Paint

[email protected] said:


> I don't know how it get"s throuht. All I know is that on BAD stains when you top coat it rises to be on top with Bin. That is why the last one I did. I when with oil for primer and top coat. Pealsonel friend two to three packs a day type person. In a one bed room apmt.


the only reason why bin would fail where an oil didn't was the bin wasn't applied to where it sealed the surface completely.


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## H2O Paint Chemist

*It's possible.*



NaeGan said:


> I'm really not trying to be a contrarian here, but I'm not sure how the nicotine came through. It blocks tannin, knot holes, water stains, and you are required to use it on a smoke rehab, not oil. So I don't understand how it would go through BIN. If there's something I don't know enlighten me.


Shellac kills stains by presenting a barrier between the stain and the topcoat. If the stain is particularly potent and the shellac is too thin, the stain can get through. The best stain blocker is clear, since pigment doesn't block stain and weakens the barrier. If you're up against really nasty stains and want insurance, use one coat of clear and one coat of white.

Or, when my new waterbased stain blocker comes out, one coat of white.


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## Capt-sheetrock

My limited experience with stain blockers has been that when the stain is really bad,(like black) it will bleed through a time or two or three, till it gets "set" then any stain blocker will cover, water or oil. 

There are differant kinds of stains, some water, some mold, some nicotine. 

All will bleed through anything, if they are strong enough. after they are "captured" any stain blocker will cover them after they are "captured".

I keep mentioning bleach, I know you guys think I'm crazy, but bleach will knock your stains Di&k in the dirt, and then any stain blocker will cover it.

I've been re-doing ceilings and walls for 30+ years, so I don't know it all, I admit that. But i know what works for me. I prefer water-based Kilz.


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## TJ Paint

30+ years? pshhh, noob.


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## Xmark

WARNING OLD THREAD!!!

Anyone try that "Killz Max" for smokers damage? i'd like to avoid oil based smelly primer if possible. the can says it will seal nicotine and smoke damaged walls but they all tend to overstate things.


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## daArch

(this is a legitimate resurrection of a necro thread, you're spared the Necro card being played)


I am so disappointed with Kilz claims, I am not sure I would even give it a chance. I tend to use what I know works, i.e, B-I-N.


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## Rbriggs82

daArch said:


> (this is a legitimate resurrection of a necro thread, you're spared the Necro card being played)
> 
> I am so disappointed with Kilz claims, I am not sure I would even give it a chance. I tend to use what I know works, i.e, B-I-N.


Yup Kilz = Crap use BIN.


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## Xmark

Rbriggs82 said:


> Yup Kilz = Crap use BIN.


have you ever used Killz Max? there will come a time when new wb technologies work in these areas. it is a relatively new product,but pretty expensive at HD.


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## daArch

Xmark said:


> have you ever used Killz Max? there will come a time when new wb technologies work in these areas. it is a relatively new product,but pretty expensive at HD.


Hmmmm, 

Kilz? HD? not very promising credentials. I'll let YOU test it out. :whistling2: :thumbsup:


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## kdpaint

After 3 years of reading posts on sealing nicotine and stains, do I detect a slight aversion to using BIN with some painters? They want to use waterbased primers, which I get, but so far, they a 2 coat solution, and some love the alkyd thing. 
For me, BIN is the love for these applications. As long as you let it dry for at least a few hours, or longer (if the stains are brutal, and you didn't wash anything) BIN is dry in 15 minutes, the smell is gone with a box fan and negative pressure in about 15-30 minutes. Whats the problem?
Heck, you can sometimes even let it dry for 15-30 minutes and paint over it if you are feeling lucky. I have felt lucky at times....in the past, of course.


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## Xmark

kdpaint said:


> After 3 years of reading posts on sealing nicotine and stains, do I detect a slight aversion to using BIN with some painters? They want to use waterbased primers, which I get, but so far, they a 2 coat solution, and some love the alkyd thing.
> For me, BIN is the love for these applications. As long as you let it dry for at least a few hours, or longer (if the stains are brutal, and you didn't wash anything) BIN is dry in 15 minutes, the smell is gone with a box fan and negative pressure in about 15-30 minutes. Whats the problem?
> Heck, you can sometimes even let it dry for 15-30 minutes and paint over it if you are feeling lucky. I have felt lucky at times....in the past, of course.


i've never been a lacquer guy and have avoided these types of alcohol based coatings my entire painting career. very toxic working conditions. also i don't want to put BIN through my sprayer because it is a pain to clean. i also want to use my hose again for spraying acrylics.


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## RH

kdpaint said:


> After 3 years of reading posts on sealing nicotine and stains, do I detect a slight aversion to using BIN with some painters? They want to use waterbased primers, which I get, but so far, they a 2 coat solution, and some love the alkyd thing.
> For me, BIN is the love for these applications. As long as you let it dry for at least a few hours, or longer (if the stains are brutal, and you didn't wash anything) BIN is dry in 15 minutes, the smell is gone with a box fan and negative pressure in about 15-30 minutes. Whats the problem?
> Heck, you can sometimes even let it dry for 15-30 minutes and paint over it if you are feeling lucky. I have felt lucky at times....in the past, of course.


Being an advocate of only using a primer when necessary and then using a specific primer for specific problem (I hate these paint and primer in one products), I've always used BIN for when I wanted to be certain of stain coverage. I cannot recall it ever failing me. Is it a pain to use? Yes. But when applied properly, under the correct conditions, and conscientiously, as mentioned above, it has always been the final word in stain sealing - IMO.


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## kdpaint

The thin, kinda splattery nature of BIN is far outweighed by the certainty that that problem stain is no more, and, its the smell of success!:thumbup:


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## Scotiadawg

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> Shellac kills stains by presenting a barrier between the stain and the topcoat. If the stain is particularly potent and the shellac is too thin, the stain can get through. _The best stain blocker is clear, _since pigment doesn't block stain and weakens the barrier. If you're up against really nasty stains and want insurance, use one coat of clear and one coat of white.
> 
> Or, when my new waterbased stain blocker comes out, one coat of white.


OR 1 coat of 3lb orange ( amber) then white:thumbsup:


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## Xmark

Originally Posted by H2O Paint Chemist 
Shellac kills stains by presenting a barrier between the stain and the topcoat. If the stain is particularly potent and the shellac is too thin, the stain can get through. The best stain blocker is clear, since pigment doesn't block stain and weakens the barrier. If you're up against really nasty stains and want insurance, use one coat of clear and one coat of white.

Or, when my new waterbased stain blocker comes out, one coat of white.

Adding tint apparently does take away from the effectiveness of sealing stains and smoke damage.

per Killz Max data sheet:

"Tinting: Not recommended for stainblocking applications. KILZ MAX primer may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon for non- stainblocking projects. Tinting to a lighter shade than the topcoat is recommended."

http://www.kilz.com/primer/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=315214dce5542310VgnVCM100000176310acRCRD


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## Scotiadawg

Xmark said:


> Originally Posted by H2O Paint Chemist
> Shellac kills stains by presenting a barrier between the stain and the topcoat. If the stain is particularly potent and the shellac is too thin, the stain can get through. The best stain blocker is clear, since pigment doesn't block stain and weakens the barrier. If you're up against really nasty stains and want insurance, use one coat of clear and one coat of white.
> 
> Or, when my new waterbased stain blocker comes out, one coat of white.
> 
> Adding tint apparently does take away from the effectiveness of sealing stains and smoke damage.
> 
> per Killz Max data sheet:
> 
> "Tinting: Not recommended for stainblocking applications. KILZ MAX primer may be tinted with up to 2 ounces of universal colorant per gallon for non- stainblocking projects. Tinting to a lighter shade than the topcoat is recommended."
> 
> http://www.kilz.com/primer/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=315214dce5542310VgnVCM100000176310acRCRD


I'm a stubborn cranky ol sumbI&%h and i have NEVER seen any stain bleed through orange - excuse me, Amber shellac. :no:


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## RH

Scotiadawg said:


> I'm a stubborn cranky ol sumbI&%h and i have NEVER seen any stain bleed through orange - excuse me, Amber shellac. :no:


Rest easy. Even if you ever do I doubt you'll notice any personality change. :whistling2:


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## Scotiadawg

researchhound said:


> Rest easy. Even if you ever do I doubt you'll notice any personality change. :whistling2:


yikes ! feeling better are we hmmmmmmm ? that was a good one but i've been insulted bettern that from worsern you !:thumbsup::notworthy: Pill Time !!!!!:whistling2:


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## RH

ICI's (Glidden) Gripper will seal nicotine and it's water based. PPGs Seal Grip will too but I've found the Gripper has a longer shelf life. I'm not using shellac unless there's been a serious fire, I hate that stuff.


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