# Primer for drywall in bathroom



## BhamPainter

Hey all,

I mostly do repaints paint previously primed and textured walls, so sorry if this question makes me sound like a noob. I am about to paint a bathroom remodel on a Crafstman-era home. The drywall has no primer on it. Do I need to put a vapor barrier primer on all the walls, just the one exterior wall, or is plain ole PVA on everything fine? Should I just use acrylic primer? I can't find any information or building code regarding this.


----------



## getrex

You need a sealing primer because of the humidity inherent to bathrooms. PVA would be a bad idea.


----------



## chrisn

Pva is always a bad choice IMO


----------



## CApainter

StepUpBham said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I mostly do repaints paint previously primed and textured walls, so sorry if this question makes me sound like a noob. I am about to paint a bathroom remodel on a Crafstman-era home. The drywall has no primer on it. Do I need to put a vapor barrier primer on all the walls, just the one exterior wall, or is plain ole PVA on everything fine? Should I just use acrylic primer? I can't find any information or building code regarding this.


The primer is not necessarily creating the moisture barrier you need. It is more of a sealer in order to bond a coating to a bare, or problem substrate. The work of protection and performance will be in your finish coat and the number of coats you apply. Therefore, you always go with a substrate compatible primer and a finish coat and sheen that is appropriate for the environment it will exist in.


----------



## ThreeSistersPainting

Gardz or Peel Stop are good sealers for bathrooms. I used Peel Stop in my own bathroom remodel, followed by 2 coats of Miller's Premium.


----------



## CApainter

Appropriate bathroom ventilation should be considered regardless of material choice.


----------



## CApainter

The following is from a collection of references from the Gypsum Association, PDCA, and a few other notable Standards providers. But we still have people hating on PVA. Why is that?



*Drywall Primer/Drywall Completion Coat *
The term "_Drywall Primer_" has brought confusion to the gypsum board and painting industries for quite some time for the reasoning of "what is it" and "who applies it". 
*"What is it" *– _Drywall primer _is typically a _paint _material that is formulated to be applied directly over newly treated _gypsum board _and _joint compound_. There are different types of _drywall primer_(s) on the market. The question is what are the expectations of the _drywall primer_? 
If the expectation of the _drywall primer _is to enhance the following coat of _paint _and help seal the surface, then a PVA (poly vinyl acetate) type _drywall primer _is recommended to be specified. This type of _drywall primer _is designed to be applied as a thin film _coating _4.0 _mils WFT _(_no less than 2.0 mils DFT_) and it does not help with the texture difference that occurs in Gypsum Board Levels 3 and 4 Finishes. 

The reference goes on to explain drywall surfacers and so forth.


----------



## jr.sr. painting

We switched to rx35 for mostly all interior wall priming not requiring stain blocking and have been very satisfied. The interior clear primers are far superior to any pigmented primer especially on new drywall. I was opposed to it for the longest time. For no good reason other than just being stubborn and stuck in the old days. After reading all the posts on pt about them we gave it a shot and am so glad we did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chrisn

CApainter said:


> The following is from a collection of references from the Gypsum Association, PDCA, and a few other notable Standards providers. But we still have people hating on PVA. Why is that?
> 
> 
> 
> *Drywall Primer/Drywall Completion Coat *
> The term "_Drywall Primer_" has brought confusion to the gypsum board and painting industries for quite some time for the reasoning of "what is it" and "who applies it".
> *"What is it" *– _Drywall primer _is typically a _paint _material that is formulated to be applied directly over newly treated _gypsum board _and _joint compound_. There are different types of _drywall primer_(s) on the market. The question is what are the expectations of the _drywall primer_?
> If the expectation of the _drywall primer _is to enhance the following coat of _paint _and help seal the surface, then a PVA (poly vinyl acetate) type _drywall primer _is recommended to be specified. This type of _drywall primer _is designed to be applied as a thin film _coating _4.0 _mils WFT _(_no less than 2.0 mils DFT_) and it does not help with the texture difference that occurs in Gypsum Board Levels 3 and 4 Finishes.
> 
> The reference goes on to explain drywall surfacers and so forth.


 because any that I have ever used did not work as advertised, there are plenty of better products avalible


----------



## Wildbill7145

Hit it with any decent primer (that means not pva, I almost always use Bull 123) and then 2 coats of a good bathroom choice paint. BM up here is phasing out K&B since nobody was buying it anymore since Regal came out. I generally use Regal egg or pearl since it has mildewcides, mold inhibitors. Depends on the sheen they want.

But as CA said, ventilation is the most important factor in a bathroom with a shower/tub. Improper ventilation means it doesn't matter what you use. It's gonna fail. On a remodel, I can't see that being an issue unless the builder's a bonehead.


----------



## Woodco

jr.sr. painting said:


> We switched to rx35 for mostly all interior wall priming not requiring stain blocking and have been very satisfied. The interior clear primers are far superior to any pigmented primer especially on new drywall. I was opposed to it for the longest time. For no good reason other than just being stubborn and stuck in the old days. After reading all the posts on pt about them we gave it a shot and am so glad we did.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you rolling it or spraying it? cuz I started a huge thread after I sprayed gardz for all the new texture in a 3800' house on a recommendation from here, and the topcoats flashed like a motherf*cker... Luckily I caught this after I sprayed and backrolled all the ceilings, then I rerolled all the walls with another coat of gardz, but the downstairs ceiling had to be rerolled four or five times....


----------



## jr.sr. painting

We only cut and roll it. It goes on fast enough to not use a sprayer. We do 99% occupied residential so spraying isn't all that easy for us at least. I could see that product turning into a **** show fast if sprayed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Woodco

Gotchya. It left shiny streaks sprayed, which showed right through the paint afer multiple coats. I may have sprayed it too heavy... I wont do it again though, but for rolling, it would be cool. The fumes were nasty too.


----------



## getrex

PVA is very basic and really only has one use: to create a uniform surface to paint over. But all other primers also do this and have more features like sealing the surface/blocking stains/bonding to difficult surfaces/etc.


----------



## CApainter

getrex said:


> PVA is very basic and really only has one use: to create a uniform surface to paint over. But all other primers also do this and have more features like sealing the surface/blocking stains/bonding to difficult surfaces/etc.


Actually, the PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate) is specifically formulated for high ph substrates like bare drywall that have been finished with joint compound. It is not intended for any other use in the paint industry.

PVA is not intended to even out drywall surfaces, be a moisture barrier, create an opaque back drop for finish coats, used as a high build material, block stains, a bonder for existing painted surfaces, or as a sanding sealer. It is simply designed to be ph compatible with a bare drywall substrate to be followed by whatever coating system spec'd after that.


----------



## getrex

It evens out the ph balance for a more uniform top coat.


----------



## CApainter

getrex said:


> It evens out the ph balance for a more uniform top coat.


My brain just drained out of my ears.


----------



## futtyos

*Primer/sealer choices*



StepUpBham said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I mostly do repaints paint previously primed and textured walls, so sorry if this question makes me sound like a noob. I am about to paint a bathroom remodel on a Crafstman-era home. The drywall has no primer on it. Do I need to put a vapor barrier primer on all the walls, just the one exterior wall, or is plain ole PVA on everything fine? Should I just use acrylic primer? I can't find any information or building code regarding this.


I general, if I am painting new drywall, my favorite way to start is to roll, not spray (see Woodco on this) 2 full coats of Gardz sealer as per directions on can. This gives a moisture barrier that prevents the water in the paint from being sucked into the drywall or primer that you might put on. It also will give you a uniform sheen possibly better than anything else will. The Gardz will give you (at least in my opinion) the best surface for topcoating with paint - bar none! Gardz does not just sit on the surface, but rather soaks into the drywall and any dust left on the surface, making the dust a permanent part of the wall (dusting first is a good thing to do anyway).

As far as moisture in the bathroom, CAPainter said "Appropriate bathroom ventilation should be considered regardless of material choice." I agree with this whole heartedly. After I take a shower, I leave the bathroom door open and have a high powered fan blowing in at the bottom of the door, allowing for many air changes per hour with resulting lack of mold growth inside the bathroom.

If moisture is really going to be a big problem you might go with BIN as it has a vapor barrier rating of over 98% according to Rustoleum.

futtyos


----------



## CApainter

When considering vapor barriers, you have to keep in mind the dynamics of thermal insulation as it relates to wall cavities and vapor migration. Just because an interior surface may have a vapor barrier applied to it, like BIN, doesn't mean it isn't susceptible to vapor pressure from the exterior walls and poor insulation. Also, the more temperature ranges a building material is subjected to, the more expansion and contraction it will experience. I've seen oil based bathroom walls crack from poor ventilation, and poor insulation.


----------



## BhamPainter

Thanks for the input everyone! I ended up using SW Moisture Vapor Barrier primer and two coats duration for topcoat. I'll look at Gardz in the future—I know many here seem to be very happy with it.


----------



## paint life

Coronado Supercoat 5000 Drywall primer is the best Drywall Primer I have ever used. I can apply it by just spraying or spraying and back rolling or brush and roller. One coat and everything is completely covered and sealed evenly and has great hold out for the top coat. I have even had customers on new construction jobs insist that their garage was finished with one coat of primer, most of them agree to let me put paint on it, but I have had some who like the look of it so much they insist I leave it as a finish coat.


----------



## woodcoyote

CApainter said:


> The following is from a collection of references from the Gypsum Association, PDCA, and a few other notable Standards providers. But we still have people hating on PVA. Why is that?


Because PVA is generally junk. What is considered standard for them is basically just that...a basic standard. 

It's like framing, the minimum is 2x4, 24" o.c. So what..means nothing about *quality*. It just means that is the basic building block people can agree upon (code book). Without a basic...people would be using food coloring and water etc. etc. 

PVA will get a job done but that's all it does. You want to hide drywall scratches, surface imperfections etc., just not going to happen with PVA. Maybe at tons of milage yes...but why spend 3x the amount of money trying to fill in defects when they make other primers for such things that will end up costing less? 

Efficiency and looks is why people don't like PVA. And cost/effectiveness is why people do like it.


----------



## woodcoyote

StepUpBham said:


> Thanks for the input everyone! I ended up using SW Moisture Vapor Barrier primer and two coats duration for topcoat. I'll look at Gardz in the future—I know many here seem to be very happy with it.


Sounds like it came out good for you. Glad you found something that would work. Never used the vapor barrier, but the duraiton is always a good choice. People knock SW but they do have some good things. 

Another option you might want to consider in the future in this situation is: Harmony. 

You can upsell the customer and win out other contractors by utilizing a paint that eliminates odors. Works pretty decently in bathrooms as well. They also make a harmony primer that can be used in tandem as a "system". 

Just a $0.02 tip, more from a business perspective than performance. 

Keep up the good work!


----------



## CApainter

woodcoyote said:


> Because PVA is generally junk. What is considered standard for them is basically just that...a basic standard.
> 
> It's like framing, the minimum is 2x4, 24" o.c. So what..means nothing about *quality*. It just means that is the basic building block people can agree upon (code book). Without a basic...people would be using food coloring and water etc. etc.
> 
> PVA will get a job done but that's all it does. You want to hide drywall scratches, surface imperfections etc., just not going to happen with PVA. Maybe at tons of milage yes...but why spend 3x the amount of money trying to fill in defects when they make other primers for such things that will end up costing less?
> 
> Efficiency and looks is why people don't like PVA. And cost/effectiveness is why people do like it.


It's spec'd as a recommended drywall sealer because of it being a PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate). It is ph compatible with joint compound, along with sharing the same PVA binder component of most joint compounds.

In other words, it's recommended for it's chemical science and objectivity, rather than the subjective "It covered, sealed, and sanded great!" as often claimed of other all purpose primers.

Once again, PVA sealer is only recommended as an industry standard because of the bridge it creates between a bare drywall surface and whatever coating system is spec'd after that. including hold out primers. That's why the DFT is so minimal and only one coat of PVA is recommended.

It's easily dismissed because it is time consuming to apply a PVA treatment in a new drywall coating system when an all purpose primer appears to do it all in one. Just like the primer/finish products that replaced substrate specific primers.

Science and imperical evidence means nothing in an industry that is so subjective. "Look how glossy that looks! It passes inspection".


----------



## woodcoyote

CApainter said:


> It's spec'd as a recommended drywall sealer because of it being a PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate). It is ph compatible with joint compound, along with sharing the same PVA binder component of most joint compounds.
> 
> Once again, PVA sealer is only recommended as an industry standard


We get what your saying. But your missing the point of the industry standard statement you made. It's a standard...the bare minimum.

Yes, PVA has been tested but so have other products by the manufacturers that make them and their competition as well. 

It almost sounds like your attempting to make a point that only PVA is compatible or should be used on drywall. Simply based or solely based on the fact that it is a standard. As if a standard actually excludes the use of anything BUT a particular product (in this case PVA). 

I'm sure the association recommends PVA for several reasons. It works. But they aren't going to test 100+ different products and then list each individual one from each individual manufacturer. It costs millions of dollars to do rigorous testing and they aren't going to spend that kind of money on all kinds of products under the sun. So, with that being said they are going to find a product that is generally going to be recognized as the same (PVA), test it, verify it works and then set it as a standard. A bare minimum of what should be used to prime drywall/compound.


----------



## CApainter

I think you're mistaking standards for minimal requirements. For example, most industrial coating systems cannot be warranted to perform as intended in an immersion environment if the standard SP-5 (White Metal Blast) wasn't administered first in the surface preparation stage. However, an SP-10 (Near White) will often perform exactly the same with less time prepping.

These standards are in place to protect the owners, contractors, and material manufacturers in the event of a failure. The problem with the residential and architectual painting industry, is that standards are subjective and often borne out of personal preference and more often, time constraints rather than objective guidelines.

There's nothing cheesy about applying a PVA sealer treatment prior to a new drywall coating system. The industry actually still considers it a best practice, if not a best way to CYA.. That's why engineers still spec it, and why industry leaders still recommend it.

But contractors will continue to not only mis use PVA, but also dissmis it because it is in fact an extra step in the process, and therefore competitively compromising in an industry with tight margins and no oversight. And why? Because we can.


----------



## Brushman4

chrisn said:


> Pva is always a bad choice IMO


I would wholeheartedly disagree, as has been discussed before on PT, PVA has always been a reliable primer for new drywall. Back in the day, I primed many miles of walls in new office towers with PPG 6-2, with nary a problem!


----------



## Brushman4

woodcoyote said:


> Because PVA is generally junk. What is considered standard for them is basically just that...a basic standard.
> 
> It's like framing, the minimum is 2x4, 24" o.c. So what..means nothing about *quality*. It just means that is the basic building block people can agree upon (code book). Without a basic...people would be using food coloring and water etc. etc.
> 
> PVA will get a job done but that's all it does. You want to hide drywall scratches, surface imperfections etc., just not going to happen with PVA. Maybe at tons of milage yes...but why spend 3x the amount of money trying to fill in defects when they make other primers for such things that will end up costing less?
> 
> Efficiency and looks is why people don't like PVA. And cost/effectiveness is why people do like it.


Your right just slap on 2 coats of Behr, how can you beat that for quality?:vs_laugh:


----------



## Brushman4

jr.sr. painting said:


> We switched to rx35 for mostly all interior wall priming not requiring stain blocking and have been very satisfied. The interior clear primers are far superior to any pigmented primer especially on new drywall. I was opposed to it for the longest time. For no good reason other than just being stubborn and stuck in the old days. After reading all the posts on pt about them we gave it a shot and am so glad we did.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are talking about Roman R35? Unless they've changed it completely from 15 or so years ago. At that time it never really cured it remained a rubbery, gummy product on the wall.


----------



## Brushman4

jr.sr. painting said:


> We switched to rx35 for mostly all interior wall priming not requiring stain blocking and have been very satisfied. The interior clear primers are far superior to any pigmented primer especially on new drywall. I was opposed to it for the longest time. For no good reason other than just being stubborn and stuck in the old days. After reading all the posts on pt about them we gave it a shot and am so glad we did.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's only your opinion!


----------



## Brushman4

getrex said:


> PVA is very basic and really only has one use: to create a uniform surface to paint over. But all other primers also do this and have more features like sealing the surface/blocking stains/bonding to difficult surfaces/etc.


I've painted miles of new rock, with PPG 6-2, it creates a uniform surface for painting. What more do you want? There's no need to re-invent the wheel!


----------



## woodcoyote

Brushman4 said:


> Your right just slap on 2 coats of Behr, how can you beat that for quality?:vs_laugh:


Yah good thing I don't use Behr.


----------



## woodcoyote

CApainter said:


> I think you're mistaking standards for minimal requirements. For example, most industrial coating systems cannot be warranted to perform as intended in an immersion environment if the standard SP-5 (White Metal Blast) wasn't administered first in the surface preparation stage. However, an SP-10 (Near White) will often perform exactly the same with less time prepping.
> 
> These standards are in place to protect the owners, contractors, and material manufacturers in the event of a failure.
> 
> There's nothing cheesy about applying a PVA sealer treatment prior to a new drywall coating system. The industry actually still considers it a best practice, if not a best way to CYA.. That's why engineers still spec it, and why industry leaders still recommend it.


Question: What minimal standards for PVA or priming do we have as a trade? Just curious. 

My interpretation is that for the priming of drywall the standard is what it "typically" done. 

Contractors, lawyers, manufacturers etc., have to have a baseline. If there isn't a standard than anyone could do anything they wanted, because after all that is the standard: nothing. 

But..we can't operate a society like that so we have to create a standard that we can all agree upon. And of course when someone applies something that deviates from the standard or "norm" and of course if something goes wrong we have a way of handling the situation. Because after all its easy to point to a book with a 'standard' and say he/she didn't do it the way it's purported to be done. 

The standard only exists because of some scientific testing of the chemicals involved and of course a vote of a majority to make it the standard. 

I don't personally have anything against PVA. I've used it many times and it works just fine. But...I'm for advancement and of course if something IS better...than why not use it. But of course if it's spec'd or go to court, there is the possibility that the "standard" can be used against you.


----------



## CApainter

Poly Vinyl Acetate Sealer is a paint industry standard and Gypsum association recommendation over bare drywall.

Self priming interior flat finish is a "minimal requirement" for coating over bare drywall.

Therein lies the difference.

And granted a lot of paint companies have been successfully subscribing to the latter. But, it does not mean they are necessarily following a painting standard or "Best Practice". It's purely subjective and based solely on preference and experience. But it's that "experience" that muddles the waters. Are painting contractors using PVA Sealer as intended. Or, did they become disillusioned with PVA because it didn't build up a solid and even base like a BM Fresh Start would? Because at the end of the day, who cares about minor chemical and ph compatibility issues when everything looks great?

Frankly, in an industry without oversight and slim margins, why would anyone spend time with best practices any ways? Thus the popularity of DTM acrylic finishes and self priming interior finishes.


----------



## Brushman4

CApainter said:


> Poly Vinyl Acetate Sealer is a paint industry standard and Gypsum association recommendation over bare drywall.
> 
> Self priming interior flat finish is a "minimal requirement" for coating over bare drywall.
> 
> Therein lies the difference.
> 
> And granted a lot of paint companies have been successfully subscribing to the latter. But, it does not mean they are necessarily following a painting standard or "Best Practice". It's purely subjective and based solely on preference and experience. But it's that "experience" that muddles the waters. Are painting contractors using PVA Sealer as intended. Or, did they become disillusioned with PVA because it didn't build up a solid and even base like a BM Fresh Start would? Because at the end of the day, who cares about minor chemical and ph compatibility issues when everything looks great?
> 
> Frankly, in an industry without oversight and slim margins, why would anyone spend time with best practices any ways? Thus the popularity of DTM acrylic finishes and self priming interior finishes.


Some painters can't see the forest for the trees!:sad:


----------



## RedPelican

CA Painter. 
So in your opinion should PVA always be used on bare drywall as a first step even if you prefer the performance/appearance of another product?

Are you suggesting three steps?
1. PVA
2. Primer of choice (bonding, sealing, leveling, etc.)
3. Topcoat(s)


----------



## CApainter

RedPelican said:


> CA Painter.
> So in your opinion should PVA always be used on bare drywall as a first step even if you prefer the performance/appearance of another product?
> 
> Are you suggesting three steps?
> 1. PVA
> 2. Primer of choice (bonding, sealing, leveling, etc.)
> 3. Topcoat(s)


Two things, if the Gypsum Association continues to recommend a PVA Sealer treatment prior to priming and painting bare drywall, and if respected industry guide lines from organizations like PDCA, MPI, and SSPC continue to recommend it, I think it should be considered in a painting specification. 

So until the industry in general recommends something else, I have to consider PVA Sealer to be a good painting practice. Does it matter if I don't apply that standard? Probably not given the lack of oversight and individual preference that drives this industry.

And to answer your question about sequencing, yes. I would have to consider a primer over the PVA (with the exception of a flat interior finish) because PVA Sealer is intended only as a low mil treatment that is compatible with the ph of raw joint compound. Nothing more. PVA is not intended to cover, build, hide, block, or provide a sound surface for sheen hold out. It is more of a treatment than a undercoat in my opinion.


----------



## RedPelican

Makes sense, to me. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Woodco

Ok. So, exactly what negative things can happen if I primed with PVA, then topcoated with a regular paint? In laymans terms. Does the paint not adhere? does it grow mold? Does it make the paint flash? Why would I want to either prime twice next job, or use a more expensive primer next job I do, (in real world talk, not scientific jargon)?


----------



## Brushman4

Woodco said:


> Ok. So, exactly what negative things can happen if I primed with PVA, then topcoated with a regular paint? In laymans terms. Does the paint not adhere? does it grow mold? Does it make the paint flash? Why would I want to either prime twice next job, or use a more expensive primer next job I do, (in real world talk, not scientific jargon)?


There are no negatives if your priming new sheetrock.:biggrin:


----------



## CApainter

Woodco said:


> Ok. So, exactly what negative things can happen if I primed with PVA, then topcoated with a regular paint? In laymans terms. Does the paint not adhere? does it grow mold? Does it make the paint flash? Why would I want to either prime twice next job, or use a more expensive primer next job I do, (in real world talk, not scientific jargon)?


Applying a finish coat over PVA sealer will likely have a zero effect on adhesion. But given that it is intended to be applied at a thin mil, it may leave the finish coat looking starved for another coat.

However, after reading through the specifications of many brands of PVA, they seem to vary in SBV%. For example Kilz PVA is 16 SBV% while Glidden is 27%. The higher solids may contribute to a more even surface.

But the interesting thing reading about Poly Vinyl Acetate, is the chemistry and the qualities of PVA, like it's hardness, and resistance to chemicals.


----------



## Woodco

I just looked up PPG 6-2, and is 28% SBV, so its pretty high solids for a PVA.

At the same time, I dont imagine Gardz has much solids but it primes great. Maybe the less solids it has, the better it can penetrate into the texture... Does that have any merit?


----------



## CApainter

Woodco said:


> I just looked up PPG 6-2, and is 28% SBV, so its pretty high solids for a PVA.
> 
> At the same time, I dont imagine Gardz has much solids but it primes great. Maybe the less solids it has, the better it can penetrate into the texture... Does that have any merit?


Gardz is actually 26%SBV


----------



## Woodco

Really?? Thats surprising as hell.


----------



## CApainter

Woodco said:


> Really?? Thats surprising as hell.


You would think a relatively clear product wouldn't have high solids. I used a Devoe two component rust treatment a few times that claimed to be 100% SBV. I was like "What!" this stuff is clear. 

But then I learned that a product can be clear and still be 100% SBV because there are no vehicle solvents to evaporate. Whatever wet mils you apply stays the same milage when it dries. Whether clear or opaque. In other words, 100% of liquid in that can remained 100% solid as a film. No shrinkage, or loss from evaporation.


----------



## XYZ

CApainter said:


> It's spec'd as a recommended drywall sealer because of it being a PVA (Poly Vinyl Acetate). It is ph compatible with joint compound, along with sharing the same PVA binder component of most joint compounds.
> 
> In other words, it's recommended for it's chemical science and objectivity, rather than the subjective "It covered, sealed, and sanded great!" as often claimed of other all purpose primers.
> 
> Once again, PVA sealer is only recommended as an industry standard because of the bridge it creates between a bare drywall surface and whatever coating system is spec'd after that. including hold out primers. That's why the DFT is so minimal and only one coat of PVA is recommended.
> 
> It's easily dismissed because it is time consuming to apply a PVA treatment in a new drywall coating system when an all purpose primer appears to do it all in one. Just like the primer/finish products that replaced substrate specific primers.
> 
> Science and imperical evidence means nothing in an industry that is so subjective. "Look how glossy that looks! It passes inspection".



Thank you CApainter for your posts on this topic. 

All the info about drywall primers/sealers *by you and by others *is very important in choosing proper drywall sealer (mostly for mudded sections of drywall), 
paper areas of drywall are not that problematic to form strong adhesion between sealer and paper but drywall mud is.
As I pointed in my (first)thread on PaintTalk * "GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud".* I had failure with 3 different primers/sealers going over DustControl drywall mud. 

I will use GARDZ but only over dedicated and proven primer/sealer over new drywall.
If I was to paint eggshell in the high stairwell with skylight, or a wall with lots of light bouncing off of it I would apply coat of GARDZ to assure that I get no flashing of eggshell paint on the mudded sections of the drywall.
But with my experience with GARDZ not adhering to DustControl mud I would never again use as a first coat. 
Maybe GARDZ going over regular drywall mud performs great but I had failure with DustControll mud.


----------



## kentdalimp

XYZ said:


> I had failure with 3 different primers/sealers going over DustControl drywall mud.


We actually ran into a situation a few years ago where we couldn't get anything to stick to newly skimmed walls. We tried a lot of High Quality primers and they wouldn't adhere. Eventually we looked up the PDS for the mud and it recommended some crappy PVA specifically. We used the recommended Primer and had no problems afterwards. 

I've seen it like once or twice since, but post's like yours make me think this will eventually become a recurring problem.


----------



## PACman

CApainter said:


> You would think a relatively clear product wouldn't have high solids. I used a Devoe two component rust treatment a few times that claimed to be 100% SBV. I was like "What!" this stuff is clear.
> 
> But then I learned that a product can be clear and still be 100% SBV because there are no vehicle solvents to evaporate. Whatever wet mils you apply stays the same milage when it dries. Whether clear or opaque. In other words, 100% of liquid in that can remained 100% solid as a film. No shrinkage, or loss from evaporation.


The key here is "two component". Not at all uncommon for catalyzed products to be 100% SBV in the actual resin portion of the product.


----------



## PACman

Just to add to this "discussion", neither California Paint or Pratt & Lambert even have a PVA primer in their product line. Talked to both tech departments and they both said that PVA is completely unnecessary. Both companies recommend their basic "drywall primer" for bare drywall.

And a word about the recent marketing of "mildew proof" or "mold resistant" drywall primers........WHY? If you are painting it, the primer can't get mold or mildew on it and if the mold or mildew is coming through the drywall no primer in the world is going to stop it. It may keep the mildew from attaching to the primer but it won't keep the mildew from destroying the drywall. ANY claims about mold or mildew resistance is for the paint or primer ONLY, and not the substrate. There are several such mold/mildew preventative primers on the market now, but they ONLY make that claim in relation to the primer film itself. It's another one of those marketing tricks where they change the wording a little bit and people think it means something different. It doesn't. No paint company is going to warranty their paint for a substrate failure.


----------



## CApainter

PACman said:


> The key here is "two component". Not at all uncommon for catalyzed products to be 100% SBV in the actual resin portion of the product.


I think the point is that clears, either two component, or single, can have an equal measure of SBV% as that of an opaque material.


----------



## CApainter

PACman said:


> Just to add to this "discussion", neither California Paint or Pratt & Lambert even have a PVA primer in their product line. Talked to both tech departments and they both said that PVA is completely unnecessary. Both companies recommend their basic "drywall primer" for bare drywall.


...Yet many other major brands sell a PVA sealer. Why is that?


----------



## Woodco

When you guys say "bare drywall, " does that include textures?


----------



## futtyos

*Correct product*



XYZ said:


> Thank you CApainter for your posts on this topic.
> 
> All the info about drywall primers/sealers *by you and by others *is very important in choosing proper drywall sealer (mostly for mudded sections of drywall),
> paper areas of drywall are not that problematic to form strong adhesion between sealer and paper but drywall mud is.
> As I pointed in my (first)thread on PaintTalk * "GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud".* I had failure with 3 different primers/sealers going over DustControl drywall mud.
> 
> I will use GARDZ but only over dedicated and proven primer/sealer over new drywall.
> If I was to paint eggshell in the high stairwell with skylight, or a wall with lots of light bouncing off of it I would apply coat of GARDZ to assure that I get no flashing of eggshell paint on the mudded sections of the drywall.
> But with my experience with GARDZ not adhering to DustControl mud I would never again use as a first coat.
> Maybe GARDZ going over regular drywall mud performs great but I had failure with DustControll mud.


If I was dead set on using dust control mud for my skimming and spackling, I bet that I would find out that Gardz would not work real quick and I would be careful not to use Gardz over the dust control product again. Having said that, I will continue to use Gardz over new drywall and mud, but if I didn't do the mudding I will try to find out if the dust control stuff was used before using Gardz.

As for PVA, I have a bad experience with it back in the 1980's and have been reluctant to try it ever again. I see a lot here saying it is not as good as other products, but I also see a lot saying that it works like a charm for them, some for many years now. Hopefully I will get a chance to use it under direction of someone else so that I have no liability if things go south.

futtyos


----------



## getrex

I used Killz PVA in my finished basement without issues.

Hey Pac, are those CP and P&L "drywall primers" basically PVA in disguise?


----------



## XYZ

Woodco said:


> When you guys say "bare drywall, " does that include textures?


In my opinion yes. 
Textures are made using drywall compounds so I would treat them as "bare drywall" when choosing proper primer/sealer for them.


----------



## XYZ

kentdalimp said:


> We actually ran into a situation a few years ago where we couldn't get anything to stick to newly skimmed walls. We tried a lot of High Quality primers and they wouldn't adhere. Eventually we looked up the PDS for the mud and it recommended some crappy PVA specifically. We used the recommended Primer and had no problems afterwards.
> 
> I've seen it like once or twice since, but post's like yours make me think this will eventually become a recurring problem.


Your experience puts final nail in the coffin of the concept that PVA primers have no place in our trade.
I used GARDZ last two years on dozens of projects over DustControl mud and I was bragging to the customers that I'm using super-duper sealer.
I was sincere in my perception, I wasn't using cheapest possible primer/sealer, but I was not aware of the possible adhesion issue with GARDZ.
Yes, at the end it's my fault for not making sure that the paraffin wax in the DustControl mud is compatible with GARDZ.

That was the reason I made that "GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud." thread to warn others from making same mistake I made, sincere mistake if I can call it that way, but a mistake.


----------



## XYZ

futtyos said:


> If I was dead set on using dust control mud for my skimming and spackling, I bet that I would find out that Gardz would not work real quick and I would be careful not to use Gardz over the dust control product again. Having said that, I will continue to use Gardz over new drywall and mud, *but if I didn't do the mudding I will try to find out if the dust control stuff was used before using Gardz.
> *
> As for PVA, I have a bad experience with it back in the 1980's and have been reluctant to try it ever again. I see a lot here saying it is not as good as other products, but I also see a lot saying that it works like a charm for them, some for many years now. Hopefully I will get a chance to use it under direction of someone else so that I have no liability if things go south.
> 
> futtyos


DustControl mud has different feel when you slide palm of your hand against it, feels more "slippery" (due to the paraffin wax in it) than the regular drywall mud.


----------



## getrex

Personally.. I think it is kind of crazy to be putting wax on a drywall surface.


----------



## The Cutting Edge

getrex said:


> I used Killz PVA in my finished basement without issues.
> 
> Hey Pac, are those CP and P&L "drywall primers" basically PVA in disguise?


I know this was directed at Pac and I'm sure he'll respond but I wanted to chime in. P&L primers are definitely not pva in disguise. The P&L high hold out primer is some of the best I've ever used and all I use now for bare drywall on walls. It has a slight sheen like bulls eye 123 so I use the regular primers for ceilings with a flat top coat. I generally use red seal for repaints but on new construction when I've used there primers as a basecoat I will just use pro hide gold. Its just great primer. I can't say enough good things about Pratt products. I know they're sometimes hard to find but if you have access to them give em a try.


----------



## PACman

CApainter said:


> ...Yet many other major brands sell a PVA sealer. Why is that?


Because of several reasons, the main one being they can promote it based on a low, low price. And it is almost 100% profit and an easy add on sale. When someone is shopping based on price, which is the vast majority of the paint consumers that shop at box stores, the low price is quite attractive to them. SW and any corporate store, (PPG as well) need to have it to compete with those low prices.


----------



## PACman

getrex said:


> I used Killz PVA in my finished basement without issues.
> 
> Hey Pac, are those CP and P&L "drywall primers" basically PVA in disguise?


No, although they function as PVA sealers they have a different chemical composition.


----------



## BhamPainter

The Cutting Edge said:


> I know this was directed at Pac and I'm sure he'll respond but I wanted to chime in. P&L primers are definitely not pva in disguise. The P&L high hold out primer is some of the best I've ever used and all I use now for bare drywall on walls. It has a slight sheen like bulls eye 123 so I use the regular primers for ceilings with a flat top coat. I generally use red seal for repaints but on new construction when I've used there primers as a basecoat I will just use pro hide gold. Its just great primer. I can't say enough good things about Pratt products. I know they're sometimes hard to find but if you have access to them give em a try.


So I did a google search on Pratt & Lambert drywall primer, and here's what came up . . .

http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...onal/primers/pratt_lambert_pva_drywall_primer

It's PVA.


----------



## BhamPainter

BhamPainter said:


> So I did a google search on Pratt & Lambert drywall primer, and here's what came up . . .
> 
> http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...onal/primers/pratt_lambert_pva_drywall_primer
> 
> It's PVA.


There's also this primer, which is a vinyl acrylic

http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...tt_lambert_interior_drywall_waterborne_primer

To the best of my understanding, vinyl acrylic is a mix of acrylic resins and PVA. I could be wrong, but I think it still has PVA in it. I'm here to learn--please correct me if I'm mistaken.


----------



## Woodco

BhamPainter said:


> So I did a google search on Pratt & Lambert drywall primer, and here's what came up . . .
> 
> http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...onal/primers/pratt_lambert_pva_drywall_primer
> 
> It's PVA.


Fake NEWS! :vs_laugh:


----------



## Woodco

So far, the only negative anyone's been able to produce about PVA is that its low build. I looked up the CP drywall primer, and its 29% SBV, so its not any better in that respect. Im just not seeing why everyones so anti-PVA.

Let me throw another thing at this: I ordered this Wallpaper DVD set, by Jim Parodi. In it, he does a bunch of tape tests with different primers, like Gardz, 1-2-3, Solo, and an oil based with gardz as a 2nd coat. and in the last one, he mixes Gardz 50-50 with 1-2-3, cuz I guess it dries quicker for wallpaper installation. Well, the both Gardz full strength and the 50-50 gardz 1-2-3 performed the best, almost equally. (Solo, did really bad, BTW) 

So, my question, especially to Pac-man is; what about mixing some Gardz in with the PVA? Since Gardz by itself can cause flashing, if not backrolled, and PVA by itself is crappy, What would happened if you mixed the two? I've seen the results of the testing... It works. Its not something Im gonna go out and try in a new house or anything. I do have this garage I eventually have to do, in my Gardz fiasco house, and I may use it for testing.


----------



## CApainter

Woodco said:


> So far, the only negative anyone's been able to produce about PVA is that its low build. I looked up the CP drywall primer, and its 29% SBV, so its not any better in that respect. Im just not seeing why everyones so anti-PVA.
> 
> Let me throw another thing at this: I ordered this Wallpaper DVD set, by Jim Parodi. In it, he does a bunch of tape tests with different primers, like Gardz, 1-2-3, Solo, and an oil based with gardz as a 2nd coat. and in the last one, he mixes Gardz 50-50 with 1-2-3, cuz I guess it dries quicker for wallpaper installation. Well, the both Gardz full strength and the 50-50 gardz 1-2-3 performed the best, almost equally. (Solo, did really bad, BTW)
> 
> So, my question, especially to Pac-man is; what about mixing some Gardz in with the PVA? Since Gardz by itself can cause flashing, if not backrolled, and PVA by itself is crappy, What would happened if you mixed the two? I've seen the results of the testing... It works. Its not something Im gonna go out and try in a new house or anything. I do have this garage I eventually have to do, in my Gardz fiasco house, and I may use it for testing.


From what I read, PVA should not be mixed with other paints and primers. something having to do with the Poly Vinyl Acetate not binding to water molecules very well.


----------



## XYZ

getrex said:


> Personally.. I think it is kind of crazy to be putting wax on a drywall surface.


Said the guy who has wax in his crayons, lol :vs_cool:


----------



## CApainter

PVA has always worked as a bare drywall treatment. It's my contention that PVA got a bad rap because it is a thin mil sealer that didn't allow painters to apply one coat of finish as can be accomplished with higher solid acrylic primers. There is also less need for sanding over the acrylic primer.

So the word started traveling that PVA was crap because it didn't cover and its yadda this, and yadda that. As a consequence, painters who never used PVA sealer were dismissing it as crap and an unnecessary primer that the coating industry was simply pushing to increase revenue. Presto! a new painting standard was borne. Subsection 3.) blah, blah, blah of the Universal Code of Painting Standards. "Anything but PVA".

I mean, that's how we roll.


----------



## PACman

BhamPainter said:


> So I did a google search on Pratt & Lambert drywall primer, and here's what came up . . .
> 
> http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...onal/primers/pratt_lambert_pva_drywall_primer
> 
> It's PVA.


That product is a special order product and is not in their regular dealer catalog.

Correction- it is in SOME dealer catalogs, depending on where that dealer is serviced from apparently. it isn't in mine, and i have been told by my rep and the P&L customer service line that it is a special order for my area and i have a minimum order of 80 gallons in five's. So in my defense i have been told by two P&L employees that i can get it, but there are stipulations above and beyond my normal ordering process to get it.


----------



## PACman

CApainter said:


> PVA has always worked as a bare drywall treatment. It's my contention that PVA got a bad rap because it is a thin mil sealer that didn't allow painters to apply one coat of finish as can be accomplished with higher solid acrylic primers. There is also less need for sanding over the acrylic primer.
> 
> So the word started traveling that PVA was crap because it didn't cover and its yadda this, and yadda that. As a consequence, painters who never used PVA sealer were dismissing it as crap and an unnecessary primer that the coating industry was simply pushing to increase revenue. Presto! a new painting standard was borne. Subsection 3.) blah, blah, blah of the Universal Code of Painting Standards. "Anything but PVA".
> 
> I mean, that's how we roll.


It was seen as being cheap by most painters, and yes, they couldn't get one coat hold out over it. Also, because most new drywall work was in new tract homes they just started using one coat of flat paint because that was all they got paid to do. It has it's use, but there is really very little demand for it compared to what it was back in the 80's. Now because few painters understand it's use, and the fact that you still normally have to put two more coats over it, not many people are going to use it.


----------



## PACman

AND the California PVA primer is no longer in the California product lineup. It has been re-labelled in the Fixall brand. (pulled a fast one on ya!)


----------



## getrex

Just throwing this out there for the necessary / unnecessary discussion... isn't the point of using the PVA to neutralize the ph across the entire surface so that the primer or paint you put over it can soak in evenly and so that it wears evenly? We do the same for decks, painting masonry, etc. So what's the problem in using it?



XYZ said:


> Said the guy who has wax in his crayons, lol :vs_cool:




Wax goes over the paint, not under it.


----------



## CApainter

getrex said:


> Just throwing this out there for the necessary / unnecessary discussion... isn't the point of using the PVA to neutralize the ph across the entire surface so that the primer or paint you put over it can soak in evenly and so that it wears evenly? We do the same for decks, painting masonry, etc. So what's the problem in using it?


Apparently, the painting industry got dumbed down in the late 80's. It sort of coincides with the dismantling of unions, discontinuation of trade schools, drugs, cheap labor and self taught start ups. During that time, if you were fortunate enough to train under a skilled painter who themselves had trained through a union apprenticeship program, you would have learned the whole shebang. From, skip trowel to tinting and everything in between.

PVA got tossed for a lot of the reason's PAC mentions. But it became discriminated against because it required extra labor. After all, who cares about the chemistry component of the coating industry when the business is driven by speed and the most economical process. Throw in the lack of oversight and training, product promises, interpretations, and personal preferences, PVA gets the death sentence and the skies the limit, as long as you can make it pass the standard one year warranty.


----------



## PACman

pva seals the gypsum better that what is considered a "standard" (or plain old) drywall primer does. So you have that too. But kind of all of the above for reasons why people don't use it anymore. AND it HAS been kind of superseded by some of the newer higher solids drywall primers. But for the absolute BEST holdout of a SHEEN, a coat of PVA then a coat of "drywall primer" followed by a coat (or two) of the topcoat gives the best holdout i have seen on a new build. BUT as you can see, it is kind of labor intensive so the PVA at minimum usually gets skipped. High solids primer and one or two topcoats is the norm for a premium new build job around here for any kind of sheen. If they use a primer at all!

Oh, "drywall primer" is much better for sanding then pva is.


----------



## PACman

In the last twenty years or so, pretty much every painter i recommended using a primer of any sort on bare drywall to looked at me like i was some kind of moron talking backwards chinese! Most of them would say anyone who used a primer on drywall didn't know what they were doing. Everyone is so obsessed with cheap, cheap, cheap.


----------



## SemiproJohn

CApainter said:


> Apparently, the painting industry got dumbed down in the late 80's. It sort of coincides with the dismantling of unions, discontinuation of trade schools, drugs, cheap labor and self taught start ups. During that time, if you were fortunate enough to train under a skilled painter who themselves had trained through a union apprenticeship program, you would have learned the whole shebang. From, skip trowel to tinting and everything in between.
> 
> PVA got tossed for a lot of the reason's PAC mentions. But it became discriminated against because it required extra labor. After all, who cares about the chemistry component of the coating industry when the business is driven by speed and the most economical process. Throw in the lack of oversight and training, product promises, interpretations, and personal preferences, PVA gets the death sentence and the skies the limit, as long as you can make it pass the standard one year warranty.


CA, would you say the best practice regarding new drywall is a coat of PVA, then a coat of primer (bullseye, or pick your poison), then two topcoats?

I've had one issue regarding PVA that has made me reluctant to use it again. It wasn't because of a sheen holdout issue, it was due to really uneven drying of topcoats. I did an interior that was new drywall and knockdown texture was applied before I did any painting. I sprayed and backrolled ceilings and walls using PVA. After two topcoats, I could still see "lines," for lack of a better word, to describe the heavy spots. It was as if I did not backroll, and used a worn out spray tip. The water in the paint absorbed at wildly different rates, so I ended up having to roll the ceilings with a helper as quickly and as evenly as possible, and re-roll the walls with a third topcoat. The ceilings took 2 coats of PVA (crosshatched), and three coats of ceiling white (2 coats crosshatch sprayed and backrolled, then another coat rolled).

In hindsight, the only part of the interior that did not have this problem was the kitchen ceiling, where I skipped the PVA and used bullsye 1 2 3 instead.

I understand that PVA gets the pH of the joint compound compatible for topcoating, but I'm still leery that it provides a uniform surface regarding absorption of water/moisture from topcoats. I can't be sure that my problem was due more to the new knockdown texture or the PVA. I have used PVA before on new drywall with no texture, and had no problems.,


----------



## CApainter

SemiproJohn said:


> CA, would you say the best practice regarding new drywall is a coat of PVA, then a coat of primer (bullseye, or pick your poison), then two topcoats?
> 
> I've had one issue regarding PVA that has made me reluctant to use it again. It wasn't because of a sheen holdout issue, it was due to really uneven drying of topcoats. I did an interior that was new drywall and knockdown texture was applied before I did any painting. I sprayed and backrolled ceilings and walls using PVA. After two topcoats, I could still see "lines," for lack of a better word, to describe the heavy spots. It was as if I did not backroll, and used a worn out spray tip. The water in the paint absorbed at wildly different rates, so I ended up having to roll the ceilings with a helper as quickly and as evenly as possible, and re-roll the walls with a third topcoat. The ceilings took 2 coats of PVA (crosshatched), and three coats of ceiling white (2 coats crosshatch sprayed and backrolled, then another coat rolled).
> 
> In hindsight, the only part of the interior that did not have this problem was the kitchen ceiling, where I skipped the PVA and used bullsye 1 2 3 instead.
> 
> I understand that PVA gets the pH of the joint compound compatible for topcoating, but I'm still leery that it provides a uniform surface regarding absorption of water/moisture from topcoats. I can't be sure that my problem was due more to the new knockdown texture or the PVA. I have used PVA before on new drywall with no texture, and had no problems.,


It's intended as a thin mil treatment. I would never rely on PVA (Poly vinyl acetate, not poly vinyl acrylic) alone for sheen hold out, or even as a surfacer over bare drywall. And I would never use it on anything but bare drywall, joint compound, and bare cementitious materials. 

However, I would apply it under a flat. And I do consider PVA a best practice until those who provide guide lines replace it with something else.


----------



## getrex

SemiproJohn said:


> CA, would you say the best practice regarding new drywall is a coat of PVA, then a coat of primer (bullseye, or pick your poison), then two topcoats?
> 
> I've had one issue regarding PVA that has made me reluctant to use it again. It wasn't because of a sheen holdout issue, it was due to really uneven drying of topcoats. I did an interior that was new drywall and knockdown texture was applied before I did any painting. I sprayed and backrolled ceilings and walls using PVA. After two topcoats, I could still see "lines," for lack of a better word, to describe the heavy spots. It was as if I did not backroll, and used a worn out spray tip. The water in the paint absorbed at wildly different rates, so I ended up having to roll the ceilings with a helper as quickly and as evenly as possible, and re-roll the walls with a third topcoat. The ceilings took 2 coats of PVA (crosshatched), and three coats of ceiling white (2 coats crosshatch sprayed and backrolled, then another coat rolled).
> 
> In hindsight, the only part of the interior that did not have this problem was the kitchen ceiling, where I skipped the PVA and used bullsye 1 2 3 instead.
> 
> I understand that PVA gets the pH of the joint compound compatible for topcoating, but I'm still leery that it provides a uniform surface regarding absorption of water/moisture from topcoats. I can't be sure that my problem was due more to the new knockdown texture or the PVA. I have used PVA before on new drywall with no texture, and had no problems.,




Short version is PVA, Gardz, two coats of paint. If your ceiling paint is requiring three coats then you may be using the wrong product. We have had to switch to using a flat wall paint on ceilings because all of the ceiling paints are garbage.


----------



## Woodco

SemiproJohn said:


> CA, would you say the best practice regarding new drywall is a coat of PVA, then a coat of primer (bullseye, or pick your poison), then two topcoats?
> 
> I've had one issue regarding PVA that has made me reluctant to use it again. It wasn't because of a sheen holdout issue, it was due to really uneven drying of topcoats. I did an interior that was new drywall and knockdown texture was applied before I did any painting. I sprayed and backrolled ceilings and walls using PVA. After two topcoats, I could still see "lines," for lack of a better word, to describe the heavy spots. It was as if I did not backroll, and used a worn out spray tip. The water in the paint absorbed at wildly different rates, so I ended up having to roll the ceilings with a helper as quickly and as evenly as possible, and re-roll the walls with a third topcoat. The ceilings took 2 coats of PVA (crosshatched), and three coats of ceiling white (2 coats crosshatch sprayed and backrolled, then another coat rolled).
> 
> In hindsight, the only part of the interior that did not have this problem was the kitchen ceiling, where I skipped the PVA and used bullsye 1 2 3 instead.
> 
> I understand that PVA gets the pH of the joint compound compatible for topcoating, but I'm still leery that it provides a uniform surface regarding absorption of water/moisture from topcoats. I can't be sure that my problem was due more to the new knockdown texture or the PVA. I have used PVA before on new drywall with no texture, and had no problems.,


Thats what happened to me when I sprayed Gardz, without backrolling. Im thinking I may have sprayed it too heavy though. If you have that problem WITH backrolling, IDK..... Maybe it was the texture...

I used to use flat wall paint as a primer. I never once had a problem doing that..... I did tracts. We would spray everything with Kelly Moore 550 Flat wall paint, jump into the semi gloss and do the wet rooms. When we came back for the trim, we would spray a good coat of the wall paint on the trim for primer. sand it, spray the semigloss on it, thin the wall paint down a lot, then run a block brush down the jambs to turn the enamel overspray back flat. Always touched up perfect, and never had any problems. One coat, no backrolling. (The drywallers did spray a pre-texture prepcoat though.) 
In the case of custom paint jobs, the wall paint was our primer. This thread makes me want to go right back to that system.

I also do two topcoats on walls no matter what. Is that why some people want a good prime job, so they can one coat it?


----------



## futtyos

*Rolling Gardz*



Woodco said:


> Thats what happened to me when I sprayed Gardz, without backrolling. Im thinking I may have sprayed it too heavy though. If you have that problem WITH backrolling, IDK..... Maybe it was the texture...
> 
> I used to use flat wall paint as a primer. I never once had a problem doing that..... I did tracts. We would spray everything with Kelly Moore 550 Flat wall paint, jump into the semi gloss and do the wet rooms. When we came back for the trim, we would spray a good coat of the wall paint on the trim for primer. sand it, spray the semigloss on it, thin the wall paint down a lot, then run a block brush down the jambs to turn the enamel overspray back flat. Always touched up perfect, and never had any problems. One coat, no backrolling. (The drywallers did spray a pre-texture prepcoat though.)
> In the case of custom paint jobs, the wall paint was our primer. This thread makes me want to go right back to that system.
> 
> I also do two topcoats on walls no matter what. Is that why some people want a good prime job, so they can one coat it?


Woodco, I am sorry you had a bad experience spraying Gardz, but I would be curious to see what would happen if you rolled a nice thorough coat of Gardz before painting flat and a second coat of Gardz (as per directions) if you are painting ES or higher sheen. This works like a charm for me.

futtyos


----------



## SemiproJohn

getrex said:


> Short version is PVA, Gardz, two coats of paint. If your ceiling paint is requiring three coats then you may be using the wrong product. We have had to switch to using a flat wall paint on ceilings because all of the ceiling paints are garbage.


The incident of which I spoke is the only time I've had to three coat knockdown ceilings. For old, discolored, or stained popcorn I usually spray 2 coats of primer, two coats of ceiling flat. The ceiling paint I use has not been an issue.


----------



## The Cutting Edge

BhamPainter said:


> There's also this primer, which is a vinyl acrylic
> 
> http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...tt_lambert_interior_drywall_waterborne_primer
> 
> To the best of my understanding, vinyl acrylic is a mix of acrylic resins and PVA. I could be wrong, but I think it still has PVA in it. I'm here to learn--please correct me if I'm mistaken.


This is what I was referencing. As I said in my post.
http://www.prattandlambert.com/prod...ide_gold_interior_high_hold_out_primer_sealer


----------



## The Cutting Edge

SemiproJohn said:


> The incident of which I spoke is the only time I've had to three coat knockdown ceilings. For old, discolored, or stained popcorn I usually spray 2 coats of primer, two coats of ceiling flat. The ceiling paint I use has not been an issue.


Oh its not the ceiling paint that's the issue. Its the crap pva that's under it. Its not even adequate for a flat sheen topcoat let alone under eggshell or satin or anything else. It doesn't seal the drywall. Most anyone that's used pva and a descent primer in there life can tell the difference. If you're doing so many apartments and rentals for a builder that only cares about the cheapest they can get it done and doesn't care about the finish knock yourself out. Pva's great for that.


----------



## Woodco

futtyos said:


> Woodco, I am sorry you had a bad experience spraying Gardz, but I would be curious to see what would happen if you rolled a nice thorough coat of Gardz before painting flat and a second coat of Gardz (as per directions) if you are painting ES or higher sheen. This works like a charm for me.
> 
> futtyos


We've already been through this. I believe the thread was several pages long. To sum it up: Ceiling flashed where I sprayed. After I realized that, I rolled another coat of gardz on all the walls to avoid future problems. Yes, its a good primer. I get it. I always use it to prime before wallpaper. I wont however, spray it as a primer in a whole house ever again, unless Im spec'c to backroll the primer. And why would anyone use a primer that you have to double coat before topcoating? I prime ONCE, and topcoat twice, unless I'm spec'd and GETTING PAID to do more, in which case, great. 

The fact is, I get the same results with any other primer, or even using a flat wall paint as a primer. And, as I've just learned, leaving tape too long on the walls that have two coats of gardz and two topcoats, will still pull paint off the wall occasionally, so its not as bulletproof as it seems either.

Also, some of us dont get T+M to cut and roll two coats of expensive primer before topcoating. I have to give a price for a paint job, and it has to compete with several other companies, and I guarantee none of the other ones are putting two coats of high priced primer in their bids. Theres a delicate balance of quality and cost effectiveness that has to be considered, especially for people like me, who have only been on our own for a short time, and dont have an extensive client list and reputation. Most of the my clients are middle class. They would rather get a good paint job for a good price, than an amazing paint job at an outrageous price. You gotta give people what they want, and adapt accordingly. I sure as hell wouldnt pay an extra thousand bucks to make my walls look slightly better than if they used a regular primer. I'll make my work look badass without using the most expensive products, and thats what most customers want.

Also, its nasty stuff to spray.


----------



## XYZ

paint life said:


> Coronado Supercoat 5000 Drywall primer is the best Drywall Primer I have ever used. I can apply it by just spraying or spraying and back rolling or brush and roller. One coat and everything is completely covered and sealed evenly and has great hold out for the top coat. I have even had customers on new construction jobs insist that their garage was finished with one coat of primer, most of them agree to let me put paint on it, but I have had some who like the look of it so much they insist I leave it as a finish coat.


Thank you *paint life* for that info about Coronado 5000 primer. 

Couple of weeks ago I was told by the B/M store manager that C-Supercoat 5000 is a very good primer/sealer especially for it's price 40 to 50% less than the price of the FreshStart.
I'm going to give a try for sure now.
I'm going to do tape adhesion test over DustControl compound since I use this drywall compound almost exclusively (98% of the time) on all of the drywall repairs I do. 

After finding out that GARDZ is not adhering to the DustControl compound due to the paraffin wax added to it (to make it heavy so it falls fast instead of floating in the air like regular drywall compound doe's), I'm primarily concerned with the solid adhesion of the primer to the drywall compound.
Yes the build up is very important, but for me the adhesion is the priority, build up of the primer is secondary on the priority list. 

One thing about GARDZ I like is the fact that is slows down significantly the absorption process of the top coat paint, especially in a hot weather, so you have more open time to cut or to roll, especially BenjMoore paints that for a very strange reason are very thick and gluey and dry super fast.
That's one of the reasons I stopped using B/M paints unless I'm doing colors change to dark colors, in that case I use AURA.

It was mentioned here before (and I noticed few times also that AURA or REGAL with Genex pigments in pastel colors have very weak 'hiding' powers but in dark colors Genex pigments are outstanding). 
Actually old type of Universal pigments in pastel colors are outperforming Genex pigments so I stopped using B/M paints in pastel colors because of weak hiding properties and because B/M paints are so thick and gummy very "unpleasant" to work with especially in hot weather conditions.
I don't understand why B/M is making their paints so super thick and gummy and drying super fast.

For example DULUX paints that I started using lately are much more friendly to use. They might not have super high quality ingredients in them as B/M paints have but hiding powers of pastel colors are much better than pastels in B/M and price is like 50% less than B/M. 
Tho the DIMOND line of Delux paints are very high quality paints.
Yes wall painted with B/M paint could be scrubbed 250 times in the laboratory conditions and the other paints could be scrubbed "only" 100 times, but who is scrubbing walls 100 times, or even 10 times.*??? *


----------



## XYZ

Woodco said:


> We've already been through this. I believe the thread was several pages long. To sum it up: Ceiling flashed where I sprayed. After I realized that, I rolled another coat of gardz on all the walls to avoid future problems. Yes, its a good primer. I get it. I always use it to prime before wallpaper. I wont however, spray it as a primer in a whole house ever again, unless Im spec'c to backroll the primer. And why would anyone use a primer that you have to double coat before topcoating? I prime ONCE, and topcoat twice, unless I'm spec'd and GETTING PAID to do more, in which case, great.
> 
> The fact is, I get the same results with any other primer,* or even using a flat wall paint as a primer.* And, as I've just learned, leaving tape too long on the walls that have two coats of gardz and two topcoats, will still pull paint off the wall occasionally, so its not as bulletproof as it seems either.
> 
> Also, some of us dont get T+M to cut and roll two coats of expensive primer before topcoating. I have to give a price for a paint job, and it has to compete with several other companies, and I guarantee none of the other ones are putting two coats of high priced primer in their bids. Theres a delicate balance of quality and cost effectiveness that has to be considered, especially for people like me, who have only been on our own for a short time, and dont have an extensive client list and reputation. Most of the my clients are middle class. They would rather get a good paint job for a good price, than an amazing paint job at an outrageous price. You gotta give people what they want, and adapt accordingly. I sure as hell wouldnt pay an extra thousand bucks to make my walls look slightly better than if they used a regular primer. I'll make my work look badass without using the most expensive products, and thats what most customers want.
> 
> Also, its nasty stuff to spray.


Woodco, if you can please do a tape adhesion test and share your findings with flat pain as a first coat over the drywall compound, (paper sections of the drywall are not the issue) drywall compound and primer coat adhesion is, at least for me.
Thanks.


----------



## Woodco

XYZ said:


> Woodco, if you can please do a tape adhesion test and share your findings with flat pain as a first coat over the drywall compound, (paper sections of the drywall are not the issue) drywall compound and primer coat adhesion is, at least for me.
> Thanks.


I cant do that. And even if I could, you have to give the paint three weeks for a full cure. Today though, I second coated the master bedroom walls, which are a very dark brown, so anything less than perfect cut in lines stick out big time, so I decided to tape and caulk the ceiling line to make it really nice. (I usually dont do that, but this color is super dark, and my first cut was less than perfect) . I pulled the tape right away, and it did take a few spots of the ceiling paint down with it, so its not bulletproof. I painted the ceiling over two months ago, and its primed with gardz. However, I dont know for sure if it took the gardz with it, or if the ceiling paint pulled off of the gardz, but Im guessing it took both off.

Without rereading the whole thread, how long are you giving the primer to cure before doing adhesion tests? Full cure takes up to three weeks.


----------



## XYZ

Woodco said:


> I cant do that. And even if I could, you have to give the paint three weeks for a full cure. Today though, I second coated the master bedroom walls, which are a very dark brown, so anything less than perfect cut in lines stick out big time, so I decided to tape and caulk the ceiling line to make it really nice. (I usually dont do that, but this color is super dark, and my first cut was less than perfect) . I pulled the tape right away, and it did take a few spots of the ceiling paint down with it, so its not bulletproof. I painted the ceiling over two months ago, and its primed with gardz. However, I dont know for sure if it took the gardz with it, or if the ceiling paint pulled off of the gardz, but Im guessing it took both off.
> 
> Without rereading the whole thread,* how long are you giving the primer to cure before doing adhesion tests? Full cure takes up to three weeks.*


The tests I did described in the thread I started *"GARDZ-problems adhering to drywall mud."* http://www.painttalk.com/f2/gardz-problems-adhering-drywall-mud-82049/
was after 24 hours, you know typical time laps. 
Very seldom I paint over primer/sealer after 4 to 6 hours, very small patches, otherwise I like to be on the safe side and do it next day. 
One of the primers performed very well,three others did not.

I personally don't like the idea using flat paint as a first prime coat.
I don't think it's a good practice but I know it's requested by GC and is done daily.
Maybe some flat paints from some brands would bond as well as dedicated primer/sealer. 

Would be great if other painters did green painters tape adhesion tests using flat paint over drywall compounds (providing info about flat paint that was used and if they know over what type of drywall compound was applied) let the flat paint dry for 24 hours and next day leaving tape for 10 minutes and for 30 minutes and share with us the results.


----------



## Woodco

You cant judge a paints adhesion until its fully cured. Latex take up to three weeks to fully cure. Most will cure far before then , especially on drywall, but you need to wait longer to to do a proper tape test. Maybe in a week, that gardz will pass with flying colors.


----------



## XYZ

Woodco said:


> *You cant judge a paints adhesion until its fully cured. Latex take up to three weeks to fully cure.* Most will cure far before then , especially on drywall, but you need to wait longer to to do a proper tape test. Maybe in a week, *that gardz will pass with flying colors*.


Just to be on the same page, I'm talking about adhesion of primers/sealers on various bare drywall compounds.
And I highly doubt that flat paint will have same grip strength adhesion as dedicated primer/sealer. 
Maybe some brands will, that's why I'm asking if most of the painters know this fact from in field tests after 24 hours of primer application drying time.

If Dulux X-pro performed 100% successfully green tape adhesion test over Dust Control drywall compound this is for me so called "golden standard" now.
Maybe other primers/sealers will fail after 24 hours initially, but after 24 hours after they are top coated with two coats of top coat paint, maybe those primers/sealers will adhere to the DustControl (or Regular) drywall compound and stay on it solid so when you put a tape on them year or more after that the primer/sealer will hold that paint in place very solid, or maybe it will be coming off like sunburned skin.


Do you know that for sure 100%, or is just a wild guess about gardz.?


----------



## Woodco

I know for a fact that gardz fails tape tests occasionally, even a few months old.


----------



## jr.sr. painting

Brushman4 said:


> That's only your opinion!




Ya that's my opinion. It says right in the label it dries with a residual tack. So I'm sure hag your speaking of staying gummy was the product acting as designed. It's a great product seeing as though I don't have access to guardz around me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Woodco

All the downstairs walls of my big custom are still coated with Gardz. It never got tacky.


----------



## cocomonkeynuts

XYZ said:


> Thank you *paint life* for that info about Coronado 5000 primer.
> 
> *Couple of weeks ago I was told by the B/M store manager that C-Supercoat 5000 is a very good primer/sealer especially for it's price 40 to 50% less than the price of the FreshStart.*
> I'm going to give a try for sure now.
> I'm going to do tape adhesion test over DustControl compound since I use this drywall compound almost exclusively (98% of the time) on all of the drywall repairs I do.
> 
> After finding out that GARDZ is not adhering to the DustControl compound due to the paraffin wax added to it (to make it heavy so it falls fast instead of floating in the air like regular drywall compound doe's), I'm primarily concerned with the solid adhesion of the primer to the drywall compound.
> Yes the build up is very important, but for me the adhesion is the priority, build up of the primer is secondary on the priority list.
> 
> One thing about GARDZ I like is the fact that is slows down significantly the absorption process of the top coat paint, especially in a hot weather, so you have more open time to cut or to roll, especially BenjMoore paints that for a very strange reason are very thick and gluey and dry super fast.
> That's one of the reasons I stopped using B/M paints unless I'm doing colors change to dark colors, in that case I use AURA.
> 
> It was mentioned here before (and I noticed few times also that AURA or REGAL with Genex pigments in pastel colors have very weak 'hiding' powers but in dark colors Genex pigments are outstanding).
> Actually old type of Universal pigments in pastel colors are outperforming Genex pigments so I stopped using B/M paints in pastel colors because of weak hiding properties and because B/M paints are so thick and gummy very "unpleasant" to work with especially in hot weather conditions.
> I don't understand why B/M is making their paints so super thick and gummy and drying super fast.
> 
> For example DULUX paints that I started using lately are much more friendly to use. They might not have super high quality ingredients in them as B/M paints have but hiding powers of pastel colors are much better than pastels in B/M and price is like 50% less than B/M.
> Tho the DIMOND line of Delux paints are very high quality paints.
> Yes wall painted with B/M paint could be scrubbed 250 times in the laboratory conditions and the other paints could be scrubbed "only" 100 times, but who is scrubbing walls 100 times, or even 10 times.*??? *


The SK5000 primer is a PVA not at all comparable to the freshstart primers. Try the SureSeal 027 (100% acrylic) Primer. More % Solids than the SK5000 primer and even a little cheaper. Excellent workhorse primer IMO. Good adhesion, mildew resistant, some stain blocking ability..


----------

