# Why box store paint



## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

When I see posts and comments with the use of Behr I cringe. I'm newer and one of my sales pitch is I use paint that you, the HO, can't get quality wise for the price I can. Builds exclusivity I think. And when the job is better then what the HO can produce it's not just the skill but product as well. 

I do it in a educating sense not putting down sense.

So if HO can go and get Behr from HD, or any other from box stores, takes away the profit margin and product quality from the profession. Am I way off????????????


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

7.31psd said:


> When I see posts and comments with the use of Behr I cringe. I'm newer and one of my sales pitch is I use paint that you, the HO, can't get quality wise for the price I can. Builds exclusivity I think. And when the job is better then what the HO can produce it's not just the skill but product as well.
> 
> I do it in a educating sense not putting down sense.
> 
> So if HO can go and get Behr from HD, or any other from box stores, takes away the profit margin and product quality from the profession. Am I way off????????????


No not at all. I've been preaching this for years. Get blasted for it on Painttalk though.

But I have several painter customers who turn down any job that the HO requires a box store paint(especially Behr or SW), and they are booked through the end of the year. So there must be something to it.

And yes I did mean to put SW in with the box store paints.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think it's the responibility of the contractor to simply inform a homeowner that their company uses a preferred product, and can only gurantee that product. Anything else should void the warranty IMO. Otherwise, use the homeowner's recommendation and move on.


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

SW big box store. True stuff there. I don't have much of an option though. At least what I try to use isn't sitting on the floor for the HO to see.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Couple of thoughts here. Again just thoughts not an attack on anyone or any particular paint brand! If all you ever do is use whatever paint the Ho buys or wants you to use, how does that separate your company from the rest of the pack? If you insist on using brands that you feel give the ho the best paint job, sooner or later it will distinguish you from the other painter's in your market. If all you do is use the Ho's preferred paint, all you become at that point is a price. That's the only way you can distinguish your company in the eyes of the Ho's. If you provide a better finish, a more durable finish, at a price that gives your customer the best value you become in their minds a little bit above all the other painters in your area.

Also, when a HO buys the paint, don't you think that kind of reflects on what the HO thinks about you as a painter? They're kind of saying in a way that anyone can put paint on a wall and the only reason they are hiring a painter in the first place is so they don't screw it up themselves. There is certainly no reason not to capitalize on people that think this way. You can certainly make money this way. But you will always be busting your butt to find that next job.

I have had painters that were quite successful doing it both ways. Some insist on using the paint that they want to use and some will use whatever the HO wants. But from my experience the painters that can afford to buy a new van every other year are usually the ones who use particular paints and walk away from the others. The main reason being the savings in labor they pocket as opposed to the painters who routinely struggle to apply crappy paint. The choice is yours, and there is certainly no wrong way to do it. But there is a better way, and that is to use premium paint products that give the best finish and are faster and easier to apply, and to sell that as part of your overall shtick.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I can't imagine any painting contractor would last two years using "crappy paint". 

Bottom line, BEHR is marketeed towards DIY'ers, but it's not so horrible that a painting contractor's business will collapse if they had to, or chose to, use it. IMO.

What will cripple a business, is bad management.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I can't imagine any painting contractor would last two years using "crappy paint".
> 
> Bottom line, BEHR is marketeed towards DIY'ers, but it's not so horrible that a painting contractor's business will collapse if they had to, or chose to, use it. IMO.
> 
> What will cripple a business, is bad management.


I know a couple who came close.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I can't imagine any painting contractor would last two years using "crappy paint".
> 
> Bottom line, BEHR is marketeed towards DIY'ers, but it's not so horrible that a painting contractor's business will collapse if they had to, or chose to, use it. IMO.
> 
> What will cripple a business, is bad management.


There's a local guy around me, uses the cheapest of the cheap from General paint, and Sherwin Williams. If the HO requests Behr, Sico, etc he buys it, or has them buy it. 

He's been going at it for over 5 years now. Every winter he fires his summer staff.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

PACman said:


> No not at all. I've been preaching this for years. Get blasted for it on Painttalk though.
> 
> But I have several painter customers who turn down any job that the HO requires a box store paint(especially Behr or SW), and they are booked through the end of the year. So there must be something to it.
> 
> And yes I did mean to put SW in with the box store paints.


only a few


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

journeymanPainter said:


> There's a local guy around me, uses the cheapest of the cheap from General paint, and Sherwin Williams. If the HO requests Behr, Sico, etc he buys it, or has them buy it.
> 
> He's been going at it for over 5 years now. Every winter he fires his summer staff.


That's the power of good prep. You can make anything perform well. But unless a painter is applying BEHR over an unprepared surface, its likely to perform adequete enough to earn its Consumer report standings. I mean, I still buy Loews lumber for home improvement projects knowing damn well there are better lumder yards near me. 

It's all about the convenience.


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

I've done countless jobs with Behr, valspar, ace, etc paint that the HO picked up. They've all looked just fine and the checks cleared so it's all good. IMO any and all $30+ interior paint will look good with 2 coats.


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Kill me!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

MIZZOU said:


> I've done countless jobs with Behr, valspar, ace, etc paint that the HO picked up. They've all looked just fine and the checks cleared so it's all good. IMO any and all $30+ interior paint will look with 2 coats.


Yup. If it doesn't, the problem is usually outside the bucket, not in it. 
I have preferences. But no matter what the product is, its my responsibility to make it look great. Some things (like a sheen on smooth lids) can't look good no matter how much dough you put out on paint.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

CApainter said:


> That's the power of good prep. You can make anything perform well. But unless a painter is applying BEHR over an unprepared surface, its likely to perform adequete enough to earn its Consumer report standings. I mean, I still buy Loews lumber for home improvement projects knowing damn well there are better lumder yards near me.
> 
> It's all about the convenience.


Definitely not good prep.
He's a trained by YouTube painter. Dreams of being @idahopainter


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

Quality paints aren't exclusive to one manufacturer. I use Sherwin, Miller, Kelly, Ben, and Zinsser products most of the time. But I have used and been happy with some Behr and Valspar products at times. 

Part of the problem is the way big box stores market paints to consumers. "Paint and Primer in One" is an irritating example. We know it's a bull**** claim and it's our responsibility to indicate that to our customers. There are limitations to the claim their paint can be a substitute for primer over bare wood or oily stains, it's written on the back of the can! Also, our friends at the paint stores are a better source of knowledge than big box stores. Reps are easy to contact, product catalogues can be ordered, prices can be argued, etc..

As for the cost you negotiate with your suppliers that's between you and them. Some years I think I have a really good cost worked out with Sherwin then I realize I can work out a better price through Lowes who carries the same products under a different name. Paint prices and reformulations are the Wild West and things are changing all the time. I won't disqualify a certain brand based on the name alone. I'll try it, and if it's good and the price is good then we're good. 
It's not personal. It's business. 

There are some people on this forum who think their paint manufacturer of choice is the crown jewel of coatings and I'm telling you that it's all crap. You find good products everywhere and you use the ones you like and factor in the price you pay for them and the convenience of picking them up or having them delivered and their long term performance and durability. Don't be afraid to mark up your material costs. Every other company does it. And if the homeowner buys the paint that's fine too. Just charge for new spray tips and roller covers.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

WestCoast99 said:


> Quality paints aren't exclusive to one manufacturer. I use Sherwin, Miller, Kelly, Ben, and Zinsser products most of the time. But I have used and been happy with some Behr and Valspar products at times.
> 
> Part of the problem is the way big box stores market paints to consumers. "Paint and Primer in One" is an irritating example. We know it's a bull**** claim and it's our responsibility to indicate that to our customers. There are limitations to the claim their paint can be a substitute for primer over bare wood or oily stains, it's written on the back of the can! Also, our friends at the paint stores are a better source of knowledge than big box stores. Reps are easy to contact, product catalogues can be ordered, prices can be argued, etc..
> 
> ...


The marketing issue has been my big problem all along. That and the psychological marketing of way over charging on a daily basis and giving a "discount" to get people in the store. I've sold a pretty good amount of barn paint in my day and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. It's when the marketing gurus get their claws in that barn paint and make it out to be something that it never will be that causes my ire.

And Btw, The paint I sell IS the "crown jewel of paints"! It says so right on the Accolade labels! At least the older labels.


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

CApainter said:


> That's the power of good prep. You can make anything perform well. But unless a painter is applying BEHR over an unprepared surface, its likely to perform adequete enough to earn its Consumer report standings. I mean, I still buy Loews lumber for home improvement projects knowing damn well there are better lumder yards near me.
> 
> It's all about the convenience.


Actually you can't get much better lumber quality then Home Improvement stores. I been told a couple of times by various outside lumber sales reps that there's a grade of lumber they can't get and it goes to the HD Lowes Home stores.

I'm not calling big box stores paint crap. Though I don't like the stuff at the price point thats competitive to my preference in paint. I'm saying marketing wise and long term business tactics for all Professionals, I think there should be a separation among box store and not. The paint stores also create an illusion theres more money being put into the product you apply on your bid then there is. Profit margin. It's there job to protect us from price comparisons and I'm glad they do. Do I get much off in price compared to HO. No, and thats fine, thats why I use what they can't see. 

And I hate it when Joe from HD, "are you in our propaint program"? Nope and I won't be thanks for asking Joe. Anyways I appreciate and value your guys/gals opinions. Thank you


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

7.31psd said:


> Actually you can't get much better lumber quality then Home Improvement stores. I been told a couple of times by various outside lumber sales reps that there's a grade of lumber they can't get and it goes to the HD Lowes Home stores.


It must be a coincidence that every time I'm in a big box, only the dregs are left in the lumber racks. It almost always looks like a horror show of warp, twist, and wane.

I think the reason that the other stores "can't get" that grade is that it's being sold as hog fuel.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> It must be a coincidence that every time I'm in a big box, only the dregs are left in the lumber racks. It almost always looks like a horror show of warp, twist, and wane.
> 
> I think the reason that the other stores "can't get" that grade is that it's being sold as hog fuel.


Standard questions at the local lumber yard:

"What are you doing with it, and how straight does it have to be?"


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## 7.31psd (Feb 9, 2016)

Gough said:


> It must be a coincidence that every time I'm in a big box, only the dregs are left in the lumber racks. It almost always looks like a horror show of warp, twist, and wane.
> 
> I think the reason that the other stores "can't get" that grade is that it's being sold as hog fuel.


Where do you live? Holy crap. I'll have to send you some photos of the stuff we have.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

7.31psd said:


> Where do you live? Holy crap. I'll have to send you some photos of the stuff we have.


You're in Eastern Oregon. That's a lot closer to where the good lumber comes from then a lot of us. The further it travels from the mills the worse it gets, Since they have to cover their transportation costs, they ship the worst lumber to the areas that have higher transportation costs. There is no way they would be able to sell the crap they sell here in most places in Ohio to someone in say, Minnesota. But I must say, the box stores are a little higher quality then the local yards. Probably because they can spread that transportation cost out over several thousand other items. The local Menard's is pretty impressive for the lumber quality they carry. Except for the trim and pre-finished/primed stuff.
The dimension wood is quite nice.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The lumber at the big box stores always appear nice and straight when they're strapped up like William Shatner in a man-corsette. But as soon as that thing is un banded, there are more twists, turns and bows than a Pawnee hunting party on a rugged North Dakota mountain trail.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

Gough said:


> It must be a coincidence that every time I'm in a big box, only the dregs are left in the lumber racks. It almost always looks like a horror show of warp, twist, and wane.
> 
> I think the reason that the other stores "can't get" that grade is that it's being sold as hog fuel.


The Great White North sends all there good lumber to China for plywood, etc


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The wood from some of these stores are so wet, birds perch on them to bathe.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

There are more knots in that lumber than there are in a nervous homeowner looking for advice from PACman.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I've seen more splits on a BB lumber rack, than I've seen in a Richard Simmons video...:blink: It's not like I work out to them.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

[QUOTE=PACman;1195530]You're in Eastern Oregon. That's a lot closer to where the good lumber comes from then a lot of us. The further it travels from the mills the worse it gets, Since they have to cover their transportation costs, they ship the worst lumber to the areas that have higher transportation costs. There is no way they would be able to sell the crap they sell here in most places in Ohio to someone in say, Minnesota. But I must say, the box stores are a little higher quality then the local yards. Probably because they can spread that transportation cost out over several thousand other items. The local Menard's is pretty impressive for the lumber quality they carry. Except for the trim and pre-finished/primed stuff.
The dimension wood is quite nice.[/QUOTE]

My biggest objection was to the idea that local yards *can't* get the same grade of lumber that the big boxes do. They may choose not to get it, for the reasons that you mentioned, but I've always found it to be available when I need it. For instance, they don't carry 6/4 clear, VG WRC, but they can get it if we need it. Their carrying costs negate stocking it due to the limited demand, but it's not unavailable to them.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

CApainter said:


> I can't imagine any painting contractor would last two years using "crappy paint".
> 
> Bottom line, BEHR is marketeed towards DIY'ers, but it's not so horrible that a painting contractor's business will collapse if they had to, or chose to, use it. IMO.
> 
> What will cripple a business, is bad management.


The Marque line I would compair to BM Aura, Sw. They also have a newer line geared more towards us. Their I line is some good stuff. W e used almost 50 gallons of it and it covered, spread and looked great.

Plus Behr owns more than Behr. Kilz, BIN and some others. We buy all of our kilz at HD and get 20% off. Not BM or SW discounts even close to that.


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## hardcore painter (May 13, 2016)

*hardcore painter they don"t own bin*




cdpainting said:


> The Marque line I would compair to BM Aura, Sw. They also have a newer line geared more towards us. Their I line is some good stuff. W e used almost 50 gallons of it and it covered, spread and looked great.
> 
> Plus Behr owns more than Behr. Kilz, BIN and some others. We buy all of our kilz at HD and get 20% off. Not BM or SW discounts even close to that.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> The Marque line I would compair to BM Aura, Sw. They also have a newer line geared more towards us. Their I line is some good stuff. W e used almost 50 gallons of it and it covered, spread and looked great.
> 
> Plus Behr owns more than Behr. Kilz, BIN and some others. We buy all of our kilz at HD and get 20% off. Not BM or SW discounts even close to that.


I have not used it(the dreaded Behr) but I would have to think that comparing ANY paint to Aura would be pushing it. Aura is in a class by itself with it's tinting system ,if nothing else.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> The Marque line I would compair to BM Aura, Sw. They also have a newer line geared more towards us. Their I line is some good stuff. W e used almost 50 gallons of it and it covered, spread and looked great.
> 
> Plus Behr owns more than Behr. Kilz, BIN and some others. We buy all of our kilz at HD and get 20% off. Not BM or SW discounts even close to that.


2 coats of Marquee peels off of bare drywall like a banana peel.After 6 months of cure time. It says two coats at 6-8 mils wet on bare drywall. Safe release tape took it off. Good stuff, keep using it. Stop on in and see for yourself sometime. Even PM 200 doesn't do that.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> The Marque line I would compair to BM Aura, Sw. They also have a newer line geared more towards us. Their I line is some good stuff. W e used almost 50 gallons of it and it covered, spread and looked great.
> 
> Plus Behr owns more than Behr. Kilz, BIN and some others. We buy all of our kilz at HD and get 20% off. Not BM or SW discounts even close to that.


Behr Does NOT own Kilz. They are BOTH owned by a company called Masco and have been for years. Also, BIN and all the other Zinsser products are owned by RPM which is a separate company that also owns Rustoleum. Although this is more than likely going to change in the next couple of years when PPG buys them all. And the reason they are priced like they are and they are willing to give you a 20% discount....well you figure it out.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Thank you for the experiment*



PACman said:


> 2 coats of Marquee peels off of bare drywall like a banana peel.After 6 months of cure time. It says two coats at 6-8 mils wet on bare drywall. Safe release tape took it off. Good stuff, keep using it. Stop on in and see for yourself sometime. Even PM 200 doesn't do that.


PACman, thank you for doing the experiment painting Marquee (interior I am assuming) paint over bare drywall. I am just wondering what the value or purpose of this test is. This is something I would never do with ANY paint even if they said on the directions that it could be done, but I thank you for proving that point, to me, at least. 

When I was stripping and waxing (acrylic finish) floors back in the 1980's I stripped an old, porous floor and put several coats of acrylic finish on, but the result continued to be, coat after coat, a dull finish. The finish appeared to be sucked down into the floor and not remain on the top. I told this to my supplier and he said that on old, porous floors you have to use a sealer first, maybe even 2 coats. I took his advice, applied 2 coats of acrylic sealer on the floor, then 2 coats of acrylic finish and it shown like water. Subsequent jobs (on old porous floors) also looked great when first applying a coat or 2 of sealer.

With that in mind, I was very interested when I first used Gardz. It was thin and milky, just like acrylic floor sealer and floor finish. It smelled of banana oil, just like acrylic floor sealer and floor finish. It had the same consistency as acrylic floor sealer and floor finish. It applied like something very watery, just like acrylic sealer or finsh and not like paint or primer. It soaked into the porous surfaces I was applying it to, binding the surface dust into the wall. I applied a second coat to give the surface a uniform shine (just like the instructions said and like my experience with floor sealers told me) before applying any top coat.

I have had great success with getting uniform finishes using Gardz as a sealer many times. I did have one time where I did not get enough of the wallpaper paste removed and the paint crinkled over the Gardz, but that is it.

I would never think to put any paint directly over bare drywall as a test when I have a product like Gardz that will do what basically no paint (and, unfortunately, many primers) is even designed to do.

Although I thank you for conducting your test on Marquee over bare drywall, I would be more interested to see what the results would be of putting 2 coats of Marquee (or any other paint, for that matter) over 2 coats of Gardz on bare drywall. That would be a test that would be of value to me as that is what I would encounter on a job that I do.

There is only one opportunity to apply a first coat of any product onto bare drywall. The next coat (of anything) is the 2nd coat and if the first coat fails, the second coat is probably not going to fare well either. An exception to this is applying Gardz over builders flat as the Gardz can soak through cheap, porous paint and hopefully prepare it for whatever is going to be the topcoat.

I have had enough paint failures over the years to want to continue to take chances or experiment with things that i do not have confidence will work - unless I come to Paint Talk and find out different. Even then, I will take such info judiciously. * As I have said a number of times here, if anyone knows of a better sealer than Gardz (other than Draw-Tite), please let me know.* Those who have painted over a coat or 2 of Gardz applied over whole walls to get an even sheen on the topcoat know whereof I speak (as MikeCalifornia recently discovered in the thread "Flashing with a wet edge?") and there are a good number of those here in Paint Talk that have reported this experience. Even when the topcoat will be flat paint, Gardzing first is a good idea. MikeCalifornia corrected his Superpaint flat problem using Gardz. It seems that there are few flat paints out there now that are truly flat. Most have some sheen to them, so Gardz is still a good idea under those flats IMO.

PACman, please do not take any offense at my post. I enjoy your input here at paint Talk and think carefully about what you post as you do have many years of experience in the paint industry.

futtyos


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I agree with futtyos. Any finish paint over a bare substrate, like newly taped drywall for example, is increasing the odds of compromised adhesion, in my opinion. And as far as sealers on bare drywall, I too have used Gardz, but often use other primers like Zinsser 123, BM Fresh Start, PPG Universal, and BIN for those small, or problem areas.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

futtyos said:


> PACman, thank you for doing the experiment painting Marquee (interior I am assuming) paint over bare drywall. I am just wondering what the value or purpose of this test is. This is something I would never do with ANY paint even if they said on the directions that it could be done, but I thank you for proving that point, to me, at least.
> 
> When I was stripping and waxing (acrylic finish) floors back in the 1980's I stripped an old, porous floor and put several coats of acrylic finish on, but the result continued to be, coat after coat, a dull finish. The finish appeared to be sucked down into the floor and not remain on the top. I told this to my supplier and he said that on old, porous floors you have to use a sealer first, maybe even 2 coats. I took his advice, applied 2 coats of acrylic sealer on the floor, then 2 coats of acrylic finish and it shown like water. Subsequent jobs (on old porous floors) also looked great when first applying a coat or 2 of sealer.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing about your point at all when I say Marquee peels off bare drywall, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't live up to it's marketing claims. Most consumers think that it can be used like that, but if they want the BEST system it isn't a good idea and I know it. But I feel that I need to put the marketing claims to the test so myself and my customers can be properly informed as to those claims. That way I can steer my customers into a system that provides them with a true, durable finish instead of one that won't live up to their expectations. I'm not going to be the one that tells them to use a primer under Marquee, that's the people at Home Depots job. But I will point this out to my customers that are here in my store because they want something better. If a professional such as yourself doesn't care or doesn't want to believe what I am finding out, fine. You all know the routine. It's all about meeting customer expectations and making some money. So if you can do that using Marquee without priming that's fine. No problem.

Also interesting to note here is that what the Marquee is actually doing is coming off with a very thin layer of drywall paper fibers attached to the back of it, something which Gardz would definitely correct. Unfortunately, there is no mention of this on any of the behr paint commercials that make that BS paint and primer claim. On half of the drywall that was primed it sticks just fine. But that isn't what the diy consumers expect to happen,or probably will never be cognizant of. Just that when little Johnny scratches the wall with his book bag, the whole wall can be peeled off. And then "I must have done something wrong" or "this paint sucks" is what they think. I want to make sure my customers are aware of the potential for this type of failure, and to make sure they know how to avoid it.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> ...If a professional such as yourself doesn't care or doesn't want to believe what I am finding out, fine. You all know the routine. It's all about meeting customer expectations and making some money. So if you can do that using Marquee without priming that's fine. No problem.


I might be off base, but given that we are all professionals here, wouldn't your analysis of bare substrate applications better serve homeowners at the DIY forum? I mean, I get that you're trying to steer people away from purchasing paint products from your nemesis, The Big Box Stores, but your quote just feels a little condescending towards a professional group.

Granted there will be painters circumventing best practices, or best products, in the interest of convenience, cost, and time, but that doesn't make them ignorant. Homeowners, on the other hand, can be extremely ignorant. Maybe they need the lessons more than the professionals.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Although I will freely dispense with advice when asked, I'm just fine with DIYer's having a negative painting experience - whether it be due to the products they use or through lack of information/experience in prep and application. After one big time "sucky" project, they'll be much more likely to hire a professional the next time around.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I might be off base, but given that we are all professionals here, wouldn't your analysis of bare substrate applications better serve homeowners at the DIY forum? I mean, I get that you're trying to steer people away from purchasing paint products from your nemesis, The Big Box Stores, but your quote just feels a little condescending towards a professional group.
> 
> Granted there will be painters circumventing best practices, or best products, in the interest of convenience, cost, and time, but that doesn't make them ignorant. Homeowners, on the other hand, can be extremely ignorant. Maybe they need the lessons more than the professionals.


Those people on the diy forum.....no fun at all. And what about the people who buy their own paint and expect to hire a painter to only do one coat or maybe two on drywall. When it peels off it will reflect on the painter to an extent. I mean, it IS a perfect paint and primer in one after all. The painter must have screwed it up. Probably put it on way to thin or something.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

RH said:


> Although I will freely dispense with advice when asked, I'm just fine with DIYer's having a negative painting experience - whether it be due to the products they use or through lack of information/experience in prep and application. After one big time "sucky" project, they'll be much more likely to hire a professional the next time around.


and maybe go to a real paint store too!


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

PACman said:


> Behr Does NOT own Kilz. They are BOTH owned by a company called Masco and have been for years. Also, BIN and all the other Zinsser products are owned by RPM which is a separate company that also owns Rustoleum. Although this is more than likely going to change in the next couple of years when PPG buys them all. And the reason they are priced like they are and they are willing to give you a 20% discount....well you figure it out.


I would never put paint over bare drywall. Even if it says paint and primer. Prime then paint.

We have used Marquee a few times and almost 2 years later it still looks just fine.

I know 99% of the members on here would never try and other Behr lines because for the most part their paint was crap. Now they know if they want us pros to buy their paint it has to be better. 

If all your doing is buying paints to see when they fail, or how long it takes them to fail, maybe prime like it should be then do your testing. A HO will go over bare drywall, us pros know better.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

And wasn't the OP asking about whether to use box store paint or not? With Marquee being one of the so called "best" of the box store paints I thought my test results would be relevant. I mean for christs sake even Promar 200 sticks to bare drywall.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> I would never put paint over bare drywall. Even if it says paint and primer. Prime then paint.
> 
> We have used Marquee a few times and almost 2 years later it still looks just fine.
> 
> ...


I did try it on a primed drywall and it worked fine. Just reiterating the failure of the marketing that's all. And why it isn't a good idea to present that marketing to a home owner as factual when using the product. It looked fine on both samples. when I used them to test some "safe release" tape, it only peeled the two coat Marquee system. None of the other three paints I tried it on, even on the sides that had two coats of paint and no primer peeled off with the tape. The two coats of Prohide gold stuck fine, the Promar 200 stuck fine, even the Valspar signature stuck fine with no primer. I think that is a significant finding as far as knowing a product is concerned, and figured some of you, especially the OP who was questioning the use of box store paint,might be interested. Sorry if you don't like my results or my posting about it. And besides it's friday and we haven't had a good Behr throwdown in a while.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

That would be good information to homeowners.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> I would never put paint over bare drywall. Even if it says paint and primer. Prime then paint.
> 
> We have used Marquee a few times and almost 2 years later it still looks just fine.
> 
> ...


Comparing it to Aura is still just wrong:yes:


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

PACman said:


> I did try it on a primed drywall and it worked fine. Just reiterating the failure of the marketing that's all. And why it isn't a good idea to present that marketing to a home owner as factual when using the product. It looked fine on both samples. when I used them to test some "safe release" tape, it only peeled the two coat Marquee system. None of the other three paints I tried it on, even on the sides that had two coats of paint and no primer peeled off with the tape. The two coats of Prohide gold stuck fine, the Promar 200 stuck fine, even the Valspar signature stuck fine with no primer. I think that is a significant finding as far as knowing a product is concerned, and figured some of you, especially the OP who was questioning the use of box store paint,might be interested. Sorry if you don't like my results or my posting about it. And besides it's friday and we haven't had a good Behr throwdown in a while.


Atleast we know how to work you up lol. Behr threads.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

cdpainting said:


> Atleast we know how to work you up lol. Behr threads.


Just don't get me started on the Porsche-Ferrari thing!


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PACman said:


> Just don't get me started on the Porsche-Ferrari thing!


Please explain the Porsche-Ferrari thing.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Please explain the Porsche-Ferrari thing.


There's usually a big thing about Porsches being meant to be driven and Ferraris meant to be polished. Not reality but there are some pretty good internet "discussions" about it. If I could afford a Ferrari I would sure as hell drive it. And then hire someone to polish it when I was done. (I'm subliminally trying to convince Cdpainting to come pick me up and cruise out to Oregon to help RH on his job.)


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

PACman said:


> I'm not arguing about your point at all when I say Marquee peels off bare drywall, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't live up to it's marketing claims. Most consumers think that it can be used like that, but if they want the BEST system it isn't a good idea and I know it. But I feel that I need to put the marketing claims to the test so myself and my customers can be properly informed as to those claims. That way I can steer my customers into a system that provides them with a true, durable finish instead of one that won't live up to their expectations. I'm not going to be the one that tells them to use a primer under Marquee, that's the people at Home Depots job. But I will point this out to my customers that are here in my store because they want something better. If a professional such as yourself doesn't care or doesn't want to believe what I am finding out, fine. You all know the routine. It's all about meeting customer expectations and making some money. So if you can do that using Marquee without priming that's fine. No problem.
> 
> Also interesting to note here is that what the Marquee is actually doing is coming off with a very thin layer of drywall paper fibers attached to the back of it, something which Gardz would definitely correct. Unfortunately, there is no mention of this on any of the behr paint commercials that make that BS paint and primer claim. On half of the drywall that was primed it sticks just fine. But that isn't what the diy consumers expect to happen,or probably will never be cognizant of. Just that when little Johnny scratches the wall with his book bag, the whole wall can be peeled off. And then "I must have done something wrong" or "this paint sucks" is what they think. I want to make sure my customers are aware of the potential for this type of failure, and to make sure they know how to avoid it.


PACman, I have no problem with you holding paint companies' feet to the fire, so to speak. They should be taken to task for misleading claims.

As far as me not caring about your tests of paint over bare drywall, it really doesn't concern me as I don't apply any paint over bare drywall. If I was talking with a neighbor and they told me that they were going to do this I would discourage them and explain how I would do it. If they don't want to listen to me, that would be their choice.

As far as me not believing what you are finding out about how various paints behave when applied directly over bare drywall, what reason would I have for not believing you? I think you have given good advice for those of us here, if any, who are contemplating putting Marquee, or any other paint, for that matter, over bare drywall.

If Behr wants to advertise that its Marquee interior paint can be used to prime bare drywall, they are fair game for any criticism, in my opinion. I would bet that most paint companies are checking this forum every day for posts such as yours. I think that is good. If your input helps Masco improve their paints, you might think twice about tipping them off. 

futtyos


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

cdpainting said:


> Atleast we know how to work you up lol. Behr threads.


No s--t!!!


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

RH said:


> No s--t!!!


And pva. What about behr pva? Lololol that'll stir it up nicely....lol


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

PACman said:


> There's usually a big thing about Porsches being meant to be driven and Ferraris meant to be polished. Not reality but there are some pretty good internet "discussions" about it. If I could afford a Ferrari I would sure as hell drive it. And then hire someone to polish it when I was done. (I'm subliminally trying to convince Cdpainting to come pick me up and cruise out to Oregon to help RH on his job.)


I do agree. I know some people with both and the Porsche is the main car. Ferrari is a weekend car. Most of the customers say it's the gas and overall cost of a Ferrari as to why they drive their Porsche instead. But for speed and handling the Ferrari is a beast. There is a guy who owns a Lamborghini and his main car is a Ford Focus. Talk about extreme power difference.


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

I had a customer who was supposed to get BM surprise me with Olympic flat. I can honestly say I was shocked at the outcome. Covered great,applied like BM, and was a pleasure to work with. And is half the price of BM. Sandy color over a federal blue. Always do two coats but I got great coverage in one. Pleasantly surprised.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Slopmeyer said:


> I had a customer who was supposed to get BM surprise me with Olympic flat. I can honestly say I was shocked at the outcome. Covered great,applied like BM, and was a pleasure to work with. And is half the price of BM. Sandy color over a federal blue. Always do two coats but I got great coverage in one. Pleasantly surprised.


until you take a wet wash cloth to it


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

and again, is fair to compare Aura to Marquee????????????????????????


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

cdpainting said:


> I do agree. I know some people with both and the Porsche is the main car. Ferrari is a weekend car. Most of the customers say it's the gas and overall cost of a Ferrari as to why they drive their Porsche instead. But for speed and handling the Ferrari is a beast. There is a guy who owns a Lamborghini and his main car is a Ford Focus. Talk about extreme power difference.


I recently got interested in the Mondial after watching a car show on TV. That Ferrari model got bad reviews at conception, but evolved as one of Ferrari's best selling massed produced automobiles. It also was also designed to be maintenance friendly.


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## Toolnut (Nov 23, 2012)

I might be in the minority but I like the tests, even though I wouldn't not prime bare drywall the results from tests like this give me ammo when dealing with HO and hard headed GC.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Toolnut said:


> I might be in the minority but I like the tests, even though I wouldn't not prime bare drywall the results from tests like this give me ammo when dealing with HO and hard headed GC.


Speaking of PVA, it was the article I discovered, by Burt Olhieser, that described how over thinned joint compound could compromise the allowable percentage of PVA binder used to stabilize the mud. I believe the article described a minimum percentage of PVA at 3% ?

I can only imagine how mud is thinned down during production without any consideration to deficiencies due to dilution.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Uh oh....here we go...lol


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I think Dave is ignoring my question on purpose


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

chrisn said:


> and again, is fair to compare Aura to Marquee????????????????????????


No. Like comparing a Mercedes to a Trabant.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> I recently got interested in the Mondial after watching a car show on TV. That Ferrari model got bad reviews at conception, but evolved as one of Ferrari's best selling massed produced automobiles. It also was also designed to be maintenance friendly.


The Mondial is probably the best way to get a Ferrari right now. But I still think they are butt ugly. For the same money I'd rather have a pristine 928s.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

cdpainting said:


> Atleast we know how to work you up lol. Behr threads.


Yes you can't blame Pac for thinking outside the box.:whistling2:


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Marquee is the key!:yes:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> The Mondial is probably the best way to get a Ferrari right now. But I still think they are butt ugly. For the same money I'd rather have a pristine 928s.


But sharing the same engine as the Ferrari 308, the 84' Mondial Quattrovalvole must be a blast to drive!


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