# Hacks



## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

I can see there still is no shortage of hacks out there. I bid a job 6 weeks ago and did my follow up tonight with the woman. She told me she hired someone else for close to $4k. I then looked at my bid that was for $12k. Some hack is doing the same job for 1/3 my price. I'm calling him a hack because there is no way to do it right for $4k :whistling2:


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Hack sounds about right to me.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Sounds like a hack on crack!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I was always shocked when the perspective client would show me a bid that was for less than what I figured for materials alone.


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## Holly (Jun 14, 2011)

She may find out that a $4K job is a lot more expensive than a $12K job...


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## TyMandac (Oct 10, 2012)

Its a nationwide epidemic fellas. The hacks are everywhere. Seems to be beyond epidemic status in Coastal Alabama. Guys ru.ning around painting for a third less than my very decent (not homeowner rape) bid and aint even wearing whites. Not that the clothes make the painter but damn show a lil professionalism.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

You took 6 weeks to follow up?  I don't wear whites either..... I've always found them tight in the crotch


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I recently did a bid for a well known, and known to me Interior dec at his own place. lost the bid with about the same price spread. And guess what! He got what he paid for! 
even those that should know better- don't..


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Whenever I hear these stories, I almost feel as if there was a lack of communication of expectations from the beginning.

It sounds as if the home owner wasn't briefed first, for the amount of prep work, and the cost of the best materials, and the amount of time and care you were going to spend working on their home. 

I have said it many times before, And I know I will say it again.... It sounds to me like you are selling Cadilac's to a person looking for a preowned buick...


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## Delta Painting (Apr 27, 2010)

Yup happning here too. I just did a bid for interior repaint 3 colors, lid's and all I was @ $2,684.00, she sent me an email 1 hack was @ $1,200.00 the other came in @ $1,800.00...


:whistling2: 



The material cost was half of the lower bid...


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

this is every day occurrence in NC, I have found you have to do a whole lot of bids, selling on the spot really helps, and having a really good package with all the details, these hacks around here not only are half price they usually have references from the neighborhood. I ask almost every client why they hired us, and lots of time it was follow up, best feel, or Insurance certificate, BBB, Angie List. This industry is going to the dogs, prices in this market were much better 8 years ago.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

wje said:


> Whenever I hear these stories, I almost feel as if there was a lack of communication of expectations from the beginning.
> 
> It sounds as if the home owner wasn't briefed first, for the amount of prep work, and the cost of the best materials, and the amount of time and care you were going to spend working on their home.
> 
> I have said it many times before, And I know I will say it again.... It sounds to me like you are selling Cadilac's to a person looking for a preowned buick...


 Buick Regal.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Hacks are out of wack!Not out of work!


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## mpminter (Mar 21, 2011)

The one thing that can be worse than a low baller that does a butcher job is a low baller that does a really good job. I know because I used to be the second guy. When I first started I knew how to do a bang up paint job, but I had no idea what I was doing when it came to estimating.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

mpminter said:


> The one thing that can be worse than a low baller that does a butcher job is a low baller that does a really good job. I know because I used to be the second guy. When I first started I knew how to do a bang up paint job, but I had no idea what I was doing when it came to estimating.


That's a good way to become a successful painting contractor, as long as you eventually raise your pricing. Speaking from experience.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

wje said:


> Whenever I hear these stories, I almost feel as if there was a lack of communication of expectations from the beginning.
> 
> It sounds as if the home owner wasn't briefed first, for the amount of prep work, and the cost of the best materials, and the amount of time and care you were going to spend working on their home.
> 
> I have said it many times before, And I know I will say it again.... It sounds to me like you are selling Cadilac's to a person looking for a preowned buick...


Or they know all of that and just don't care. Hell they could have it painted every four years at that price.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

mpminter said:


> The one thing that can be worse than a low baller that does a butcher job is a low baller that does a really good job. I know because I used to be the second guy. When I first started I knew how to do a bang up paint job, but I had no idea what I was doing when it came to estimating.


I agree with this 99%. My only quibble would be that the "second guy" isn't really a low baller, at least in my book. He may be the low bidder, but he's not making an intentionally low bid to get the job and counting on extras to make his profit.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Maybe the hack gives a low price but then adds on a bunch of stuff once he gets the job. "Oh, you want the trim painted too?, that will be this much more for that." "Oh, my price was for one coat, but it looks like two will be needed for proper coverage." etc.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

You guys, its the old "that won't happen to me" mentality. People know better when they get the bid. Everything in their gut says "this low price is too good to be true". Yet they go for it anyways. Because "that won't happen to me". 

Its either that or what I call the corporate mentality. Where everything's the same. If something's not right, it'll be made right no matter what so I'm covered. 

We're all guilty if it at some point. The power of our wallet out plays our better judgement.

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

Happens were i,am on capecod all the time, they find someone to do the job for half of our bid. All they look for is the cheepest guys out their, getting depressing.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

I have the John Ruskin quote from the 1800s in my office

“There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”

Someone told me years ago when we were talking about the idea of competing to be the low bidder, "There's always somebody who's willing to go broke to do that job." And there never seems to be a shortage of other guys to take his place once he quits the business.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Gough said:


> I have the John Ruskin quote from the 1800s in my office
> 
> “There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”
> 
> Someone told me years ago when we were talking about the idea of competing to be the low bidder, "There's always somebody who's willing to go broke to do that job." And there never seems to be a shortage of other guys to take his place once he quits the business.


That's a great quote. I've never heard that one before.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

It's the payroll and income taxes....The "hacks" can still do a nice job and get referrals etc., etc., etc. and underbid guys who are playing by the rules 40-50% and still make the same "profit" on any job. There was always an element of this, but I have never seen it this bad in 37 years.....


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Gough said:


> I have the John Ruskin quote from the 1800s in my office
> 
> “There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.”


 I have the exact same quote hanging up over my desk..:thumbsup:

These days though, I am starting to wonder if it's the "hacks" that are making the $. We are working harder, longer, smarter, leaner and more efficient now than ever just to make some effort to remain "somewhat" competitive and run a completely legitimate shop. Even at that, we are still usually the highest guy and the profit margin continues to shrink....


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## spotco2 (Sep 18, 2012)

The same problem is happening all across the country right now. People are doing the work for much less than it's worth and it's impacting all of our bottom lines. It's not just in the paint game, all service providers are fighting the same problem.

I know it's not a new problem, but it's become worse since the economy has tanked. Here's what's happening though. When the economy was good, we all had people that we were training and they were learning how to do a quality job. Since business dropped off, some people had to cut some employee's and some companies went completely under.

Now you have to consider how many of those people that were properly trained how to do the job and they are suddenly unemployed. Some have found work in other places or industries while some have went back to doing what they know how. They already know what the going rates are, so they know how low they need to be to bid below everyone else and get the job. They do not have the overhead that the people they are competing with do, so they don't have to charge as much to be able to buy groceries this week.

Are they running legitimate companies? Most probably are not. Most probably have no clue how to run a profitable business. All they know is how to paint (or insert a random service here) and how much they need to make on each job to pay their personal bills.

We trained them and now they are our competition.

Sometimes I wish that I just worked 40 hours a week for someone else and didn't have to deal with the business end of things.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

The bitterness of poor quailty remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.:yes:


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

Someday the people will come to their senses (i hope ), and we will be comanding the industry again its not all about price sooner or later the world will wake up


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

mudbone said:


> The bitterness of poor quailty remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.:yes:


Very true, good one brother


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

I bid a job yesterday with a very prominent realtor in town. 2700 sq foot house that had 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, kitchen, living room, dining room, family room, laundry room, large foyer with spiral stairs. $1400 was the other painters price. 14 areas in my take offs. Essentially this HACK is painting master bedrooms and sweeping entries for $100. The realtor just looked at me and shook his head!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Thats hilarious in a sad and crazy way AC! Hard to believe! You should have asked the realtor what the heck he was thinking to even consider the other painter for a second. If he cares about his client at all he should tell him to run fast from the other bid.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

alertchief said:


> I bid a job yesterday with a very prominent realtor in town. 2700 sq foot house that had 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, kitchen, living room, dining room, family room, laundry room, large foyer with spiral stairs. $1400 was the other painters price. 14 areas in my take offs. Essentially this HACK is painting master bedrooms and sweeping entries for $100. The realtor just looked at me and shook his head!


We finally stopped bidding for realtors, period. Around here, it isn't mainly about the bottom line with them, it's ONLY about the bottom line. They always seem to be able to find someone to do the work...I'm just glad it isn't us.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Almost as bad are the people wanting bids for homes they don't even own yet.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

alertchief said:


> I bid a job yesterday with a very prominent realtor in town. 2700 sq foot house that had 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, kitchen, living room, dining room, family room, laundry room, large foyer with spiral stairs. $1400 was the other painters price. 14 areas in my take offs. Essentially this HACK is painting master bedrooms and sweeping entries for $100. The realtor just looked at me and shook his head![/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> Almost as bad are the people wanting bids for homes they don't even own yet.


We used to get a lot of those as well. It became clear pretty quickly that our proposal was being used as a negotiating tool by the buyers to lower the price. Before we stopped doing any of that, I'll admit that we stooped to doing "drive-by" bids. Knowing full well that we'd never see a lick of work from them, we'd drive by the house and come up with a WAG number. "Whaddaya think, $15K to repaint?" "Sounds good to me."

The sellers would get a quote from a hack, and then the two parties would split the difference.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Can't believe Dan T. hasn't chimed in yet.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Hasn't the internet exposure for painting contractors, via their web sites, helped with closing jobs, or has that been better served through online lead generating services. For example, a buddy of mine has been successfully closing jobs generated from an unnamed online LG, and he doesn't have a web site.

Do you think the "hacks" also have web sites, and do you think they would have a good service rating through a LG


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

You guys may think what you may, but the hacks are the industry at this point.


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## painterguy07 (Dec 20, 2011)

The problem around here is that the some hacks actually do a pretty good job. A buddy of mine owns a massage and hair salon wanted a complete new paint job. Almost 2500 sq ft we bid it out at a "friendly" cost and still were almost double what the other company was. Long story short this 2 man crew went in and did a really impressive job for half our price. I have no clue how because the material was 2/3 of their total bid. I've seen and heard of this happening more and more.


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## Steveqpp (Apr 25, 2012)

painterguy07 said:


> The problem around here is that the some hacks actually do a pretty good job. A buddy of mine owns a massage and hair salon wanted a complete new paint job. Almost 2500 sq ft we bid it out at a "friendly" cost and still were almost double what the other company was. Long story short this 2 man crew went in and did a really impressive job for half our price. I have no clue how because the material was 2/3 of their total bid. I've seen and heard of this happening more and more.


The truth is many of the low bidders are NOT hacks. Many are good or great painters. They are just not very good business people. It might take years to learn HOW to paint. It takes a lot to run a business. Its hard to work all day painting and still find time to work on your business.

The guy that did it for 1/2 yours will not know hou much he lost till the end of month when the paint store sends a bill, then next quarter when taxes are due, then when the truck needs to be repaired, then when insurance audit bill comes then ... Then its too late


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Steve, why do you think there will be some grand comeuppance waiting for these guys? These guys have a hack way of life, they persist year after year like cockroaches. It's not that the industry is plagued by lowballers, it's the exact opposite. It's an industry of hacks and lowballers plagued by a few guys that want to turn it into a profession. Kiss painting goodbye. I have opportunistic jobs here and there whereby I can make $100/hr. But nothing I can actually build a business on. 

My theory is that all this nonsense does not go away until unemployment is driven below 4%. That's the magic number you need to make the trades profitable. We're at 7.8% now, my tables are predicting it will be another 3 years before it drops to 5.6% - a decent enough number in general and good for white collar professions, but still too high for painting.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> Steve, why do you think there will be some grand comeuppance waiting for these guys? These guys have a hack way of life, they persist year after year like cockroaches. It's not that the industry is plagued by lowballers, it's the exact opposite. It's an industry of hacks and lowballers plagued by a few guys that want to turn it into a profession. Kiss painting goodbye. I have opportunistic jobs here and there whereby I can make $100/hr. But nothing I can actually build a business on.
> 
> My theory is that all this nonsense does not go away until unemployment is driven below 4%. That's the magic number you need to make the trades profitable. We're at 7.8% now, my tables are predicting it will be another 3 years before it drops to 5.6% - a decent enough number in general and good for white collar professions, but still too high for painting.



you also have teachers and fireman who steal some of the painting 'pie' during their holidays and days off. add the newly unemployed to the list of hacks who pick up a brush to put food on the table while they are earning unemployment benefits. you guys in the states must also deal with illegals who work for 10 bucks an hour and don't pay taxes.

it is a very difficult business to sustain prolonged success. everyone is busy during the summer and the rest of the time the builders,contractors and management companies pit one painting contractor against the other.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

chrisn said:


> alertchief said:
> 
> 
> > I bid a job yesterday with a very prominent realtor in town. 2700 sq foot house that had 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, kitchen, living room, dining room, family room, laundry room, large foyer with spiral stairs. $1400 was the other painters price. 14 areas in my take offs. Essentially this HACK is painting master bedrooms and sweeping entries for $100. The realtor just looked at me and shook his head![/QUOTE]
> ...


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## Steveqpp (Apr 25, 2012)

plainpainter said:


> Steve, why do you think there will be some grand comeuppance waiting for these guys? These guys have a hack way of life, they persist year after year like cockroaches. It's not that the industry is plagued by lowballers, it's the exact opposite. It's an industry of hacks and lowballers plagued by a few guys that want to turn it into a profession. Kiss painting goodbye. I have opportunistic jobs here and there whereby I can make $100/hr. But nothing I can actually build a business on.
> 
> My theory is that all this nonsense does not go away until unemployment is driven below 4%. That's the magic number you need to make the trades profitable. We're at 7.8% now, my tables are predicting it will be another 3 years before it drops to 5.6% - a decent enough number in general and good for white collar professions, but still too high for painting.


If you fell that way WHY ARE YOU HERE? Why not work for someone or build some other kind of business?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Builtmany said:


> I can see there still is no shortage of hacks out there. *I bid a job 6 weeks ago and did my follow up tonight* with the woman. *She told me she hired someone else for close to $4k*. I then looked at my bid that was for $12k. Some hack is doing the same job for 1/3 my price. I'm calling him a hack because there is no way to do it right for $4k :whistling2:


1st - You did a follow up 6 weeks later? That is a long wait. I would do a follow up within 7 to 10 days! 

2nd - She may have lied about the price she got! Don't believe everything people tell you.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Xmark said:


> you also have teachers and fireman who steal some of the painting 'pie' during their holidays and days off. add the newly unemployed to the list of hacks who pick up a brush to put food on the table while they are earning unemployment benefits. you guys in the states must also deal with illegals who work for 10 bucks an hour and don't pay taxes.
> 
> it is a very difficult business to sustain prolonged success. everyone is busy during the summer and the rest of the time the builders,contractors and management companies pit one painting contractor against the other.


I am currently on a job and my customer stated to me: "I don't mean to offend you, but anyone can paint"! :blink:


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Too much whining about the low bids... Why does nobody here ever complain when they lose a job to a guy who was $2000 higher than they were? 

Sounds like everyone is envious of the low man on the totem poll. Don't be. That is how painters become grumpy old drunks and live up to the stereotype.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> 1st - You did a follow up 6 weeks later? That is a long wait. I would do a follow up within 7 to 10 days!
> 
> 2nd - She may have lied about the price she got! Don't believe everything people tell you.


1) She told me before the holidays was when she wanted it completed. The job is still not done, she is waiting for the "cheap" guy.

2) Yes, I think there is a chance she is full of it.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

wje said:


> Too much whining about the low bids... Why does nobody here ever complain when they lose a job to a guy who was $2000 higher than they were?
> 
> Sounds like everyone is envious of the low man on the totem poll. Don't be. That is how painters become grumpy old drunks and live up to the stereotype.


That actually happened to me once. I bid an exterior repaint, in my neighborhood, with several happy customer houses within veiw of her house, already had two more on the schedule right across the street. I gave her a really good price since it's so close and I thought I could bunch it together with the two other houses. On the follow up she tells me she went with another contractor, although it was more money, she felt more comfortable with. To top it off, the other contractor was a francise that hires inexperienced hacks that only do brush work.

I felt a little better when I heard she was unhappy with the work and that it took over a month to complete.

After that lesson, I make sure my bids aren't suspiciously low.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Builtmany said:


> 1) She told me before the holidays was when she wanted it completed. The job is still not done, she is waiting for the "cheap" guy.
> 
> 2) Yes, I think there is a chance she is full of it.


#1 is how I like to get work done from people I know. If I'm getting a deal, take as long as you want, and work whenever and for however long you want. You have to know that going in to it though. If you're getting a deal, there's a catch....there's always one.

#2 I've found painters to be full of it too. 

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> #2 I've found painters to be full of it too.


"Checks in the mail"

_-Painters who owe money to their suppliers_


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

wje said:


> "Checks in the mail"
> 
> -Painters who owe money to their suppliers


"I'll be in to see you tomorrow"

"What's the best price you can give me, I'm going to need alot"......"that's great! I'll take 3 gallons"

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

wje said:


> "Checks in the mail"
> 
> _-Painters who owe money to their suppliers_


I was reading an article in a business magazine about strategies to improve your financial situation. One of them was "supplier-side financing". That's a fancy way to say that you can have more money for your business if you don't pay your bills.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Gough said:


> I was reading an article in a business magazine about strategies to improve your financial situation. One of them was "supplier-side financing". That's a fancy way to say that you can have more money for your business if you don't pay your bills.


Yes I've improved my financial situation by cancelling all but 4 of my painter accounts. Its amazing, you would think that I would lose some business. I have, but the amount in my "net" at the end of the month is higher. There are plenty of places to get credit....banks, credit unions, home equity, credit cards.......... NOT paint stores!

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yes I've improved my financial situation by cancelling all but 4 of my painter accounts. Its amazing, you would think that I would lose some business. I have, but the amount in my "net" at the end of the month is higher. There are plenty of places to get credit....banks, credit unions, home equity, credit cards.......... NOT paint stores!
> 
> Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


It's a little like some jobs. I'm often asking myself, 1) How badly do I want this job? and 2) How badly do I NOT want this job?

When clients ask about a payment plan...at the end of the job...I usually reply, "Do I look like a banker to you?"


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yes I've improved my financial situation by cancelling all but 4 of my painter accounts. Its amazing, you would think that I would lose some business. I have, but the amount in my "net" at the end of the month is higher. There are plenty of places to get credit....banks, credit unions, home equity, credit cards.......... NOT paint stores!
> 
> Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


 That actually makes a lot of sense NC. We have run a store account since before I was born. I *always* zero out my account *every* week regardless if the balance is $100 or $2000 for that week. The monthly statements don't even concern me. 
In actuality though, in todays day and age of all the credit card perks and cash back it would be beneficial to charge all purchases on a card and get the rewards. It would add up with the amount being spent. I just like the store account incase there is a billing mistake/mix-up(rarely, but it does happen). It can be easier to deal with and fix than dealing with a major credit card.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I thought a hack was someone who cuts a lot of corners, and someone that worked too cheap was a lowballer.

But a hack IS a lowballer...and a lowballer isn't necessarily a hack?

Sorry for my confusion.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> I thought a hack was someone who cuts a lot of corners, and someone that worked too cheap was a lowballer.
> 
> But a hack IS a lowballer...and a lowballer isn't necessarily a hack?
> 
> Sorry for my confusion.


You are correct. Sometimes the two can be used interchangeably. Like coverage and hide is with coatings. Coverage refers more to spread rate, yet people also use it to describe the "hide" or "opacity" of certain colors/products. It gets confusing at times.

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

CliffK said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense NC. We have run a store account since before I was born. I always zero out my account every week regardless if the balance is $100 or $2000 for that week. The monthly statements don't even concern me.
> In actuality though, in todays day and age of all the credit card perks and cash back it would be beneficial to charge all purchases on a card and get the rewards. It would add up with the amount being spent. I just like the store account incase there is a billing mistake/mix-up(rarely, but it does happen). It can be easier to deal with and fix than dealing with a major credit card.



I wish I had more customers like yourself. Most (not all) will want credit simply because they don't have any money. They fly by the seat of their pants, rob Peter to pay Paul, and one little hiccup and the house of cards collapses. Guess who gets screwed? That's right....the supplier.

I wish more people would operate like Cliff and use credit wisely and efficiently. Too many people treat credit like a crutch and not a tool.

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Yo Sometimes the two can be used interchangeably. Like coverage and hide is with coatings.


And like "eggshell"?

More than once I've asked..."so do you want this in eggshell", and the reply has been "oh no...I don't want it white."


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> And like "eggshell"?
> 
> More than once I've asked..."so do you want this in eggshell", and the reply has been "oh no...I don't want it white."


And we've had clients who want eggshell stipple. Not a sheen, not a color, but a texture.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I thought a hack was someone who cuts a lot of corners, and someone that worked too cheap was a lowballer.
> 
> But a hack IS a lowballer...and a lowballer isn't necessarily a hack?
> 
> Sorry for my confusion.


And I thought a lowballer was someone who intentionally bid low with the idea of making the actual profit from change orders. To me, someone who bids low out of ignorance is not a lowballer.

The opposite is a highballer, someone who submits many appallingly high bids and hopes that a few get accepted. It's like the old joke about selling $1,000 pencils.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Gough said:


> And I thought a lowballer was someone who intentionally bid low with the idea of making the actual profit from change orders.


That guys called a Douchebag, dumbass, schmuck, tool, or jackass.

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> I wish I had more customers like yourself. Most (not all) will want credit simply because they don't have any money. They fly by the seat of their pants, rob Peter to pay Paul, and one little hiccup and the house of cards collapses. Guess who gets screwed? That's right....the supplier.
> 
> I wish more people would operate like Cliff and use credit wisely and efficiently. Too many people treat credit like a crutch and not a tool.
> 
> Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


 I wish we had more owner/operated stores like yourself. Business should be about building relationships and credit is one tool in that equation. When we bought at owner operated stores our meticulous credit built credibility. These days the local chain stores are run by managers who's only concern is to sell, let corporate worry about getting paid. Not all customers are created equal & when the stores were owner operated that was much more obvious.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

So how do you become a "non-hack/lowballer"?

By bidding jobs at a price that you guys feel acceptable? 

this is a funny topic. 

I applaud Steve Richards for bringing the conversation to the subject of language and semantics. At least this is interesting.

Are you a hack if you do what you would consider to be hackish, when you have already communicated that this hackish thing is hackish to the customer and yet they are animate about doing this hackish thing anyways? If you make decent money doing it the hackish way they want you to are you a hack? Maybe, but not a lowballer. 

I think being a hack means doing work in a way that is intentionally deceiving and cheating the customer. A lowballer is someone who bids lower than you do. 

What if somebody else got the job and bid the same as you? Who is to blame then?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> I applaud Steve Richards for bringing the conversation to the subject of language and semantics.


= not all of my hijacks are worthless!

Thanks! :notworthy:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> = not all of my hijacks are worthless!
> 
> Thanks! :notworthy:


No, but some really are "hackjacks" (sorry MB). :whistling2:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> this is interesting.
> 
> Are you a hack if you do what you would consider to be hackish, when you have already communicated that this hackish thing is hackish to the customer and yet they are animate about doing this hackish thing anyways?


 I say no.

If you tell the HO that doing something "wrong" is hackish, and they say "do it anyhow"...you're not a hack.

But if you refuse to do it, and walk instead, you may very well be a true craftsman ...or an idiot.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Lol.. 

I do think a hack /lowballer has mostly to do with perspective.

If your main object is to squeeze the most money for the least work, done as quickly and with as little skill as possible, your probably a hacker. 

Anyone see a stand up comedy career with this line?


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

BrushJockey said:


> Lol..
> 
> If your main object is to squeeze the most money for the least work, done as quickly and with as little skill as possible, your probably a hacker.


:whistling2:


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

A Lowballer is a Hacks mother. 

Here is how a hack was born. True Story by the way..

Slick Ricks Painting Tricks went and priced 14 jobs to fill his summer... He was feeling great as he landed 13 of them on the spot.. He had talked 3 times with the home owner on the 14th, before they agreed to hire him..

2 weeks into the summer Rick had been on job #1 for much longer than he planned and realized his bottom line was taking a huge beating. That was fine as he prided himself on craftmanship, and knew by doing a good job he could take the low price as a lesson learned. Rick got paid in full and the home owners were very happy.

3 weeks in, he realizes on job 2 and 3 (which he is juggling because he is behind schedule) if he takes maybe half the amount of time on prep, the paint will look good still and he won't lose as much money..

He completes job 2 and 3 and gets a call back to job 3 for touchups, and a few other issues, no sweat because he cut back the prep.

6 weeks in Rick realized he way underpriced every job and the only way he can make money (which is why Rick started his fancy named company) is to skip numerous steps in the painting process, cut back on materials and sundries, and start thinning the paint with H2O to make it spread further. He realized that by doing this, he is meeting his expected numbers, and can continue to get work this way.

The only downside, is that he is finding he needs to change his phone number every 5 weeks due to a catostrophic amount of unhappy people. Little do they know he is the guy on Craigslist everyweek making the new weekly special ad and boasting of how they are the cheapest contractor in town. Rick prides himself with his online ads and finds witty ways to self promote himself through the classified websites. He is very happy to learn he can change the font colour to make his ads more colourful and look more professional.

Rick has been doing this for the past 7 years and has had 18 basement apartments, bouncing first and last month rent checks along the way. He often asks the homeowner to buy the paint, and he will provide the tools.

Rick will continue to live _hackily_ ever after....


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

wje said:


> A Lowballer is a Hacks mother.
> 
> Here is how a hack was born. True Story by the way..
> 
> ...


That's going to be my daughters bedtime story tonight. I like to keep it real with my kids.


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## TyMandac (Oct 10, 2012)

Lost a job today for a difference in bid amount of 500$s. When i told home owner i could work with her she replied with, Im gonna let my friends husband who just started a painting buisness do it. Jeez never thought id lose one over 500 bucks.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

CliffK said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense NC. We have run a store account since before I was born. I *always* zero out my account *every* week regardless if the balance is $100 or $2000 for that week. The monthly statements don't even concern me.
> In actuality though, in todays day and age of all the credit card perks and cash back it would be beneficial to charge all purchases on a card and get the rewards. It would add up with the amount being spent. I just like the store account incase there is a billing mistake/mix-up(rarely, but it does happen). It can be easier to deal with and fix than dealing with a major credit card.


Or just pay your bill with a CC at the end of the month. 31-60 day terms and the extra CC incentive, what could be better?. I would assume you would get your money from the customer by the time the CC bill arrived and not have spent it.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I pay up with my store accounts each month. But all biz expenses go through a biz cc- easy to track and account. I have auto pay though my CC at my biggest supplier.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

TyMandac said:


> Lost a job today for a difference in bid amount of 500$s. When i told home owner i could work with her she replied with, Im gonna let my friends husband who just started a painting buisness do it. Jeez never thought id lose one over 500 bucks.


I wouldn't be too upset, the guy has to start somewhere. Friends and family is the perfect opportunity. At least you didn't get beat by $1000, he was pretty close.

This is not directed at Ty!! So my ? is this. Why would any paint contractor actually come down in price if the homeowner asked him/her to? Do some contractors just not know what they are going to make or do they intentionally bid high with the cushion of negotiation built in? 

The scenerio is this: Yea, we really like you and want you to paint our house but this other guy is $1000 less, we will hire you if you meet his price. My answer: sorry but I simply cannot do that and here is why. There will always be someone who will work for less, I for one am not in business to just break even, and I expect to make a certain % on each job. So one of these things will happen if I take less for your job. 1. I will be forced to use a lower quality product to make up the difference. Now this seems awfully unfair to you. Or 2. I will have to cut corners in my prep and finish to save time. Again, seems unfair to you. So either the other guy is happy to make less per hour, or 1 or 2 will be why you are getting $1000 discount.


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## painterguy07 (Dec 20, 2011)

I'd say hacks are guys who are trying to cheat the customers. lowballers are just guys who can do it for less money


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## oz_painter (Aug 18, 2012)

i thought a lowballer is a hack and a hack is a lowerballer:tongue_smilie:


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

CliffK said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense NC. We have run a store account since before I was born. I *always* zero out my account *every* week regardless if the balance is $100 or $2000 for that week. The monthly statements don't even concern me.
> In actuality though, in todays day and age of all the credit card perks and cash back it would be beneficial to charge all purchases on a card and get the rewards. It would add up with the amount being spent. I just like the store account incase there is a billing mistake/mix-up(rarely, but it does happen). It can be easier to deal with and fix than dealing with a major credit card.


I started using a credit card solely for paying materials on jobs. I got the chase sapphire card last year. Already stayed in two really nice hotels for two different weekends and can probably have enough points to go for a cruise with my wife next year. I pay with it and as soon as it posts, I pay by bank draft. I keep it zeroed, but the extra few minutes with the extra step saves me money and allows me to earmark the rewards points for family time.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> I started using a credit card solely for paying materials on jobs. I got the chase sapphire card last year. Already stayed in two really nice hotels for two different weekends and can probably have enough points to go for a cruise with my wife next year. I pay with it and as soon as it posts, I pay by bank draft. I keep it zeroed, but the extra few minutes with the extra step saves me money and allows me to earmark the rewards points for family time.


 Makes sense....:thumbsup:


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

TyMandac said:


> *Lost a job today for a difference in bid amount of 500$s.* When i told home owner i could work with her she replied with, Im gonna let my friends husband who just started a painting buisness do it. *Jeez never thought id lose one over 500 bucks*.


Bud, $500 bucks is a nice chunk of change. If you could pay $2,500 or $2,000 for something, which would you pick? I know, you are a great painter - right?
Well, you spelled 'business' wrong and '500$' would be '$500'. That alone would make me go with another guy!

I lost a job over $50 one time...


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

wje said:


> Too much whining about the low bids... *Why does nobody here ever complain when they lose a job to a guy who was $2000 higher than they were*?
> 
> Sounds like everyone is envious of the low man on the totem poll. Don't be. That is how painters become grumpy old drunks and live up to the stereotype.


If you are talking about jobs over $50,000, I can see losing a bid if he was a well established business and I was an unknown at $48,000...

If we are talking about a residential repaint, awarded bid of 5k vs., 4 losing bids at $3,000 per bid... That would never happen!

The biggest reason people do not complain about a guy coming in 2k higher and getting the job over them, is because it rarely happens...


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> If you are talking about jobs over $50,000, I can see losing a bid if he was a well established business and I was an unknown at $48,000...
> 
> If we are talking about a residential repaint, awarded bid of 5k vs., 4 losing bids at $3,000 per bid... That would never happen!


I know this has come up before, but that was our typical experience for many years. Often, we were at least 2x the other bids. It may have helped that our competition at that time looked mostly like pharmacist's mates on a Chinese gunboat.... These days, we do negotiated contracts, rather than bids


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> If you are talking about jobs over $50,000, I can see losing a bid if he was a well established business and I was an unknown at $48,000...
> 
> If we are talking about a residential repaint, awarded bid of 5k vs., 4 losing bids at $3,000 per bid... That would never happen!
> 
> The biggest reason people do not complain about a guy coming in 2k higher and getting the job over them, is because it rarely happens...


 
It happens around here. We get a large amount of jobs we are the highest price job. $2000 was a hypothetical number I used. If I said $300, my point would not have been made clearly.

I do not submit my prices with a phone call, or on a napkin. To some people that alone is worth a 30% premium over the lower quote.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

wje said:


> It happens around here. We get a large amount of jobs we are the highest price job. $2000 was a hypothetical number I used. If I said $300, my point would not have been made clearly.
> 
> I do not submit my prices with a phone call, or on a napkin. To some people that alone is worth a 30% premium over the lower quote.


Exactly. That and the fact that we don't like like someone the client would be afraid to let into their house.


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## TyMandac (Oct 10, 2012)

Damn due. I thought this was a professional site. I might have misspelled a few words but im not an ignorant dumbass. Yeah $2000 is better better than $2500( hope my grammar and punctuation are up to par for you) But when in the bid there is a door to be refinished and restaind a huge 2 doir inswing with solid side panels( thats 4 36" wide sectiond) was bid at 500 she agreed but bitched about the 500 on painting two 16x20 & 18x 20 bedroom and a 700 sqr ft master suite crown walls bass and a 16x12 walkin powder room, 24x 5 hallway, stairwell with 20 ft ceiilins , large huge bis ass living room, all 10 ft ceilings, trip trays, 5 stage crown and 6 in base 500 wasnt no kinda discount of actual bid


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## TyMandac (Oct 10, 2012)

Opps misspelled door. I guess cause alabam aint got no teacher or schools to learn us good


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

wje said:


> It happens around here. We get a large amount of jobs we are the highest price job. *$2000 was a hypothetical number I used.* If I said $300, my point would not have been made clearly.
> 
> *I do not submit my prices with a phone call, or on a napkin. To some people that alone is worth a 30% premium over the lower quote.*


You mean exaggerated number? 

Most people go with the lowest price, or close to the lowest price. 

Question: how do you know you are the highest price? I mean, do you ask to see all estimates on all jobs that you are awarded?

Seriously, if they hire me, I am not concerned with what price the other bids came in at! I feel it is none of my business!


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

TyMandac said:


> Damn due. I thought this was a professional site. I might have misspelled a few words but im not an ignorant dumbass. Yeah $2000 is better better than $2500( hope my grammar and punctuation are up to par for you) But when in the bid there is a door to be refinished and restaind a huge 2 doir inswing with solid side panels( thats 4 36" wide sectiond) was bid at 500 she agreed but bitched about the 500 on painting two 16x20 & 18x 20 bedroom and a 700 sqr ft master suite crown walls bass and a 16x12 walkin powder room, 24x 5 hallway, stairwell with 20 ft ceiilins , large huge bis ass living room, all 10 ft ceilings, trip trays, 5 stage crown and 6 in base 500 wasnt no kinda discount of actual bid


I could care less how you spell words... However, if you are presenting yourself to the public, as a professional business/service -- grammar, punctuation and 'you' sounding like you have a brain, is important, if you want the higher dollar and their respect. 

To write "500*$* on estimate" = dumb painter. Sorry, I am not trying to offend. Just saying!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

TyMandac said:


> Opps misspelled door. I guess cause alabam aint got no teacher or schools to learn us good


But cha gots a gooder futball teem. 

Sent from my Android, which is still better than the iPhone 6


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Question: how do you know you are the highest price? I mean, do you ask to see all estimates on all jobs that you are awarded?
> 
> !


 
I always ask why they hired me at the end of the job, when they are handing over the check, and many times they will reveal the price of the other estimates, but thats not why I ask, thats just bonus information that comes with the question


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

TyMandac said:


> Opps misspelled door.


You also misspelled "base".

(although "bass" is a word too)


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

and a fish


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> You mean exaggerated number?
> 
> Most people go with the lowest price, or close to the lowest price.
> 
> Question: how do you know you are the highest price? I mean, do you ask to see all estimates on all jobs that you are awarded?


I don't ask to see anybodies estimates. I do not care. I know what I need to make a job work, and charge accordingly. A lot (and I mean a lot) of my customers just flat out tell me I submitted the highest priced, most professional estimate. They also state that judging by the way I present myself and explain things they feel very comfortable I can run the job properly. 

As I have said many times before on this site, a lot of people DO go for the lowest price. I look for those people, and avoid them. I do not want or need their business, because if i take their business I will put myself out of business. Simple as that.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Gough said:


> I know this has come up before, but that was our typical experience for many years. Often, we were at least 2x the other bids. It may have helped that our competition at that time looked mostly like pharmacist's mates on a Chinese gunboat.... These days, we do negotiated contracts, rather than bids


I think they have since moved to Philly.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> You mean exaggerated number?
> 
> Most people go with the lowest price, or close to the lowest price.
> 
> ...


In our experience, WJE's numbers were not exaggerated. One of the things we've worked hard to do for a long time is to pre-qualify prospective clients to eliminate those who are shopping for the best price. You're right that most people will go for something close to the lowest price. Unless you're wanting to continue to compete with bottom-feeders and low-ballers, you want to market your company to a different segment of the public. 

To answer your question, we've known that we're the highest price because either the clients told us, or our competitors did. Some of the clients have gone out of their way to let us know how much more expensive we were than the other bids. I think they want to remind us that they expect a quality product that matches the price. I also know the owners of most of the legitimate painting companies around here. We only have a handful of suppliers and it's not a big town; we see each other all the time. While we are competitors, we're not unfriendly to each other. If we closed a project on which they had bid, they'd ask me about it the next time we saw each other.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I think they have since moved to Philly.


I don't know, there seem to be a lot of them left here. At the last contractors' lunch that Columbia Paint (a regional SW brand) did, I looked around at the other "painting contractors" and thought that I wouldn't want most of them on my property.

There was a saying back in the heyday of hitch-hiking (the '70s): you should look like the people you want to pick you up. I think something similar applies to painters. How comfortable are prospective clients going to be letting you run their project if you show up looking like a carny coming off a three-day bender? There's a lot more to it than that, but they've got to let you in the door.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> To answer your question, we've known that we're the highest price because either the clients told us, or our competitors did. Some of the clients have gone out of their way to let us know how much more expensive we were than the other bids. I think they want to remind us that they expect a quality product that matches the price. I also know the owners of most of the legitimate painting companies around here. We only have a handful of suppliers and it's not a big town; we see each other all the time. While we are competitors, we're not unfriendly to each other. If we closed a project on which they had bid, they'd ask me about it the next time we saw each other.


Same here. But in my case I like some of them but others... well, not so much. :no:

Here's a recent photo taken in the parking lot of my main supplier. Me and some of the guys I like are having a "chat" with a few I don't (can't stand that idiot in the pink shirt - damn lowballin' hack). Think that's when I hurt my neck.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> Same here. But in my case I like some of them but others... well, not so much. :no:
> 
> Here's a recent photo taken in the parking lot of my main supplier. Me and some of the guys I like are having a "chat" with a few I don't (can't stand that idiot in the pink shirt - damn lowballin' hack). Think that's when I hurt my neck.


RH, from that photo, you can see how built up the Oregon coast has become, that's a shame.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I actually live in a "big" city (pop 60K) about 60 miles inland. But the coast has gotten built up more over the years. It's a nice place to be from.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I could care less how you spell words... However, if you are presenting yourself to the public, as a professional business/service -- grammar, punctuation and 'you' sounding like you have a brain, is important, if you want the higher dollar and their respect.
> 
> To write "500*$* on estimate" = dumb painter. Sorry, I am not trying to offend. Just saying!


Hey phillys, how are you?


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> Hey phillys, how are you?


No, i'm from San Diego! Nice to meet you! :thumbsup:


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

wje said:


> I don't ask to see anybodies estimates. I do not care. I know what I need to make a job work, and charge accordingly. A lot (and I mean a lot) of my customers just flat out tell me I submitted the highest priced, most professional estimate. They also state that judging by the way I present myself and explain things they feel very comfortable I can run the job properly.
> 
> As I have said many times before on this site, a lot of people DO go for the lowest price. I look for those people, and avoid them. I do not want or need their business, because if i take their business I will put myself out of business. Simple as that.


Well, your high price could only be by $50 on a $2,000 job...
Bid 1 at $1,950,
Bid 2 at $1,900,
Bid 3 at $1,500 (hack painter that works part time at Sears) haha
Your bid at $2,000

If you only hear, "your price was the highest bid", that is a very vague statement. Try to find out the other prices!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Well, your high price could only be by $50 on a $2,000 job...
> Bid 1 at $1,950,
> Bid 2 at $1,900,
> Bid 3 at $1,500 (hack painter that works part time at Sears) haha
> ...


What we've heard is, "Your price was nearly twice the other one" ($7K versus $13,500) or, from a competitor,"I see you're working on the ABC house, I bid it at $5,500, what did you bid?" (just under $10K). The most common thing we used to hear was something along the lines of, your company was substantially higher than anybody else, but...blah, blah, blah.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> What we've heard is, "Your price was nearly twice the other one" ($7K versus $13,500) or, from a competitor,"I see you're working on the ABC house, I bid it at $5,500, what did you bid?" (just under $10K). *The most common thing we used to hear was something along the lines of, your company was substantially higher than anybody else, but...blah, blah, blah*.


Well, anybody else may not be a credibly contractor. When people call around for estimates, they don't know who one contractor is from the other, or who to call. ie: one guy pulls up in a new van, fully lettered, and the other guy pulls up in a station wagon, with his girl friend driving him due to a loss of license. The customer won't tell you that!

If I made a list of painting contractors in my area, that I know for a fact, have been in business for 20 + years, and gave this list to your customers to get a comparative quote, I guarantee you would not be *substantially higher than *them. 

Your prices are most likely higher than the newbies, the hacks and the wanna-bees... And these types of contractors pop up yearly like weeds!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Well, anybody else may not be a credibly contractor. When people call around for estimates, they don't know who one contractor is from the other, or who to call. ie: one guy pulls up in a new van, fully lettered, and the other guy pulls up in a station wagon, with his girl friend driving him due to a loss of license. The customer won't tell you that!
> 
> If I made a list of painting contractors in my area, that I know for a fact, have been in business for 20 + years, and gave this list to your customers to get a comparative quote, I guarantee you would not be *substantially higher than *them.
> 
> Your prices are most likely higher than the newbies, the hacks and the wanna-bees... And these types of contractors pop up yearly like weeds!


I should take a piece of that action. We're bidding against long-established firms, all outfits that have been here for more than 20 years.


EDIT: I assume those numbers would be adjusted to reflect regional differences in the cost of living. We're paying 3.87 for regular, electricity is ~0.08/kwh, and our real estate prices/taxes are a fraction of those in San Diego


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Paradigmzz said:


> Hey phillys, how are you?


 Oh no...not again


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Well, your high price could only be by $50 on a $2,000 job...
> Bid 1 at $1,950,
> Bid 2 at $1,900,
> Bid 3 at $1,500 (hack painter that works part time at Sears) haha
> ...


I have no interest in finding them out unless they tell me. It is annoying enough being on job sites with other tradesmen ripping their competitors apart, I do not want to become one of those guys. 

In all honesty, what somebody else charges is 100% irrelevant to me. Our production rates, material cost's and overhead are what they are, so how can I let other local painters affect my pricing? 

In this trade, for the most part you get what you pay for. I know there are loads of people out there who are only interested in having somebody paint there home because they don't want to. They don't care how it looks, they just hate painting so they have somebody else do it. On the other hand, there are also a lot of people who are interested in having a beautiful home. They understand things cost money, because they have nice things. They didn't get them for free, and don't expect us to work for free. These are the people I target to work for, and when they get estimates, they aren't from craigslist, because that is not where the people we want to work for look for a professional service. 

Anyways we have drifted way off topic. If you don't believe that I get a lot of jobs as the highest price, that is fine. I will not lose a wink over it.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> No, i'm from San Diego! Nice to meet you! :thumbsup:


Your "tells" are way to easy. Also, why would you mention where your from? Considering you just joined PT recently. Play nice this time around and ill quit pointing you out.


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> Your "tells" are way to easy. Also, why would you mention where your from? Considering you just joined PT recently. Play nice this time around and ill quit pointing you out.


Paradiggi, I have no idea who you are or what you are talking about... Are you ok? You said phily in your post. I am not from phily! I am from Cali!

I will be very nice, just like I am in the real world -- you can betcha! 

Again, nice to meet you my brother painter!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> Again, nice to meet you _*my brother*_ painter!


I think I remember Philly using this type of talk...


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

Never thought this would see over 100 replies. I guess hacks are a bigger issue than I thought & in all areas they exist.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

EP - Cool avatar choice. Also, in post #104, I like how you highlighted some of Gough's quote in bold and red bold. Never seen that done before - very effective. BTW - purple also looks nice.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

researchhound said:


> EP - Cool avatar choice. Also, in post #104, I like how you highlighted some of Gough's quote in bold and red bold. Never seen that done before - very effective. BTW - *purple* also looks nice.


I had to try that out. It's all there in the control panel....


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> I think I remember Philly using this type of talk...


Sound's like you have a thing for the city of brotherly love?
You are not familiar with the Brotherhood?


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

ExcaliburPainting said:


> I am not from phily! I am from Cali!


Or Arizona?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

WWWWWWW


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ExcaliburPainting, check out the magic brush thread http://www.painttalk.com/f3/paint-talk-meet-magic-brush-20415/ I would love to know what you think of this guy. He can play a guitar though . How many names is it up to now? :jester:


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## ExcaliburPainting (Sep 24, 2012)

Paradigs, you've got too much time on your hands big guy! Is there a photo of you in the 'names to faces' thread or do you prefer to be known as 'The Unknown Jeweler'? The suspense is killing me TEX!


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> That's a good way to become a successful painting contractor, as long as you eventually raise your pricing. Speaking from experience.


That's the way I got started.My old boss that I worked for for over 20 yrs said people were calling me because I worked for nothing.I told him I may have been "working for nothing" but I was making about twice what he was paying me.I priced jobs that way and did quality work until I was in demand and could charge a little more.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Builtmany said:


> Never thought this would see over 100 replies. I guess hacks are a bigger issue than I thought & in all areas they exist.


 Builtmany seen many!:whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

mudbone said:


> Builtmany seen many!:whistling2:


I got tired of seeing one of the hacks around here all of the time. I found a solution and I rarely see him anymore.

I took down all the mirrors.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> ExcaliburPainting, check out the magic brush thread http://www.painttalk.com/f3/paint-talk-meet-magic-brush-20415/ I would love to know what you think of this guy. He can play a guitar though Heard he traded it in for a violin!:whistling2:


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

I know this is an old thread but this guy has to be a hack...


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)




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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

scottjr said:


> I know this is an old thread but this guy has to be a hack...
> 
> 
> ツツツCheapest Quality Painting & Household Repair (Philly & Beyond)
> ...


Sounds pretty legit to me.:blink: Don't even have to clean up before the estimate. Not only is he cheap, he saves the customer time and energy!:thumbup:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

I would bet the farm he has all appropriate insurance and licensing for his work too:whistling2:


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I found my new subcontractor! I think I'll just sit back now and let the money flow in...... :whistling2:


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

There is work out there for everyone....don't hate.....there is plenty of "hack" work out there...just as much as high end or middle class...everyone needs a painting job just like everyone needs to eat....


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

richmondpainting said:


> There is work out there for everyone....don't hate.....there is plenty of "hack" work out there...just as much as high end or middle class...everyone needs a painting job just like everyone needs to eat....


yeah, and it sounds like this guy is on his way to making more work for everybody.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> There is work out there for everyone....don't hate.....there is plenty of "hack" work out there...just as much as high end or middle class...everyone needs a painting job just like everyone needs to eat....


So what your saying is......your a hack.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

scottjr said:


> So what your saying is......your a hack.


i didnt say that.... what im saying is that there are clients who want the "fly by. night..ill paint for beer money" kinda guys..... there....well you get the point.....there is enough work out there for every skill level and you shouldnt be degrading other painters....reguardless off there views or skills...i see so many one time posts on here and its probably cuse you guys scare off alot of people....loook at how many "guests" this site has.... why arent they signing up and joining in?

one of the first things i learned years ago..... every painter has there own way.... from the actual work to how the run there company....its almost like discrimination......you cant trash talk some one because they do it diffrent


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

richmondpainting said:


> i see so many one time posts on here and its probably cuse you guys scare off alot of people....loook at how many "guests" this site has.... why arent they signing up and joining in?


Because many of them are just visiting. That's what guests do. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying.
As far as the tough love that is present on the site, I think it is important. Nothing wrong with having your views challenged. If someone is just starting out, they my not really have their heart in it and benefit from being discouraged. If they are serious about success, no amount of being challenged is going to chase them away.
But I guess you are welcome to continue on protecting everyone's feelings and ripping off rich people.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> i didnt say that.... what im saying is that there are clients who want the "fly by. night..ill paint for beer money" kinda guys..... there....well you get the point.....there is enough work out there for every skill level and you shouldnt be degrading other painters....reguardless off there views or skills...i see so many one time posts on here and its probably cuse you guys scare off alot of people....loook at how many "guests" this site has.... why arent they signing up and joining in?
> 
> one of the first things i learned years ago..... every painter has there own way.... from the actual work to how the run there company....its almost like discrimination......you cant trash talk some one because they do it diffrent


I guess I read your quote wrong.
My bad.


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## 1camper (Feb 17, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> i didnt say that.... what im saying is that there are clients who want the "fly by. night..ill paint for beer money" kinda guys..... there....well you get the point.....there is enough work out there for every skill level and you shouldnt be degrading other painters....reguardless off there views or skills...i see so many one time posts on here and its probably cuse you guys scare off alot of people....loook at how many "guests" this site has.... why arent they signing up and joining in?
> 
> one of the first things i learned years ago..... every painter has there own way.... from the actual work to how the run there company....its almost like discrimination......you cant trash talk some one because they do it diffrent


 Wrong again Richmond, there is right and wrong and sure I can point out how someone else's method is wrong or dangerous. Who enforces this crazy code you made up?


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## cdaniels (Oct 20, 2012)

caulktheline said:


> Because many of them are just visiting. That's what guests do. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying.
> As far as the tough love that is present on the site, I think it is important. Nothing wrong with having your views challenged. If someone is just starting out, they my not really have their heart in it and benefit from being discouraged. If they are serious about success, no amount of being challenged is going to chase them away.
> But I guess you are welcome to continue on protecting everyone's feelings and ripping off rich people.


I have always tried harder to do things people say I can't.Some things I just went ahead and did because I didn't know they can't be done.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

richmondpainting said:


> i didnt say that.... what im saying is that there are clients who want the "fly by. night..ill paint for beer money" kinda guys..... there....well you get the point.....there is enough work out there for every skill level and you shouldnt be degrading other painters....reguardless off there views or skills...i see so many one time posts on here and its probably cuse you guys scare off alot of people....loook at how many "guests" this site has.... why arent they signing up and joining in?
> 
> one of the first things i learned years ago..... every painter has there own way.... from the actual work to how the run there company....its almost like discrimination......you cant trash talk some one because they do it diffrent


I can agree with the skill-level thing and the customer wants a cheepies thing BUT this is a public forum for painters. as with any on-line forum you surely have to realize you're gonna get your chops busted by at least a bunch of on-line "pals". You know in advance or ought to know that, at some point, you're gonna catch hell from somebody else on the board. May as well accept it and take it as it comes since most of it is R&R anyway. All in fun.:yes:


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