# A lesson learned



## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

I just learned the importance of using gray primer under certain colors-like pumpkin orange:whistling2: 

I thought I'd be ok with a peach colored primer...4 coats of duration still didn't cover well. Thank God it was a small kitchen. I just never really got the concept of the gray primer thing....now I do-trust me

you guys making stupid mistakes like this? or am I on my own here?


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## jackrabbit5 (Oct 1, 2007)

Rich said:


> I just learned the importance of using gray primer under certain colors-like pumpkin orange:whistling2:
> 
> I thought I'd be ok with a peach colored primer...4 coats of duration still didn't cover well. Thank God it was a small kitchen. I just never really got the concept of the gray primer thing....now I do-trust me
> 
> you guys making stupid mistakes like this? or am I on my own here?


I learned that lesson several years ago. We had a dining room to paint a deep red/orange color. The walls were previously off white. It took about 5 coats to cover. With dark gray primer I can get pretty good coverage with one coat of finish and two looks perfect.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I too learned that several years ago with a color not to far off from the pumpkin.


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

...starting to feel better

what is the explanation behind the gray primer....I know it has to do with pigments in the gray and brighter/darker colors 'meshing' some how

anybody know the technical reasoning behind it?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

C2 talks about that - they have a system built on that even.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

I dunno, never went in to the current fad of color tinting primers
I always did the gray..that's what we did years ago
Always worked, never had the desire to color tint when that became popular

Then there's the fact that I'm a cheap bastich
You can use a gray primer for red or blue, or anything else....but you can't use a red primer for blue...etc...
Once you tint that primer "Victorian Gold", any leftover becomes useless for most other colors

Reduce, reuse, recycle, save money
:thumbup:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

You make that mistake only once. I'm sure everybody here has done it. My mistake was doing 900 sqf bedroom.......4 coats of Red.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

My mistake was doing 900 sqf bedroom.......4 coats of Red.


Been there,done that:yes:


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## Ethan (Jul 31, 2007)

Big shed turning red. . -


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## The paint whisperer (Oct 18, 2007)

Five years ago, i was doing my living room, red over some kind of deep maroon.
i thought I could do it w/o prime the room first.
Well i did, but it took 7 coats. Yep! 7 coats.:bangin:


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## timhag (Sep 30, 2007)

paint whisperer.....starting off the not knowing 7 coat marathon i would have been:icon_cheesygrin: after 3rd coat by the 4th coat :wallbash: 5th coat:furious: 6th coat by the 7th coat  LOL


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*Gray, grey, & gray primers...*

OK...I'm gonna get "uber-geeky" here...:smartass: !!

The Red, Magenta, & Yellow colorants are the most transparent. They're "manufactured" vs. "Earth-based".

* The Blacks, Browns, Whites/Ti02, Yellow-Oxide, & Red/Iron-Oxides are more "Earth-based.
* The Browns, etc., are very opaque...can't be seen through easily.
* Reds/Magentas/Bright Yellows are very transparent; AND a lot lighter too!

ALSO:
The darker you go in tint-bases, the LESS Ti02 they have...therefore a paints' "hiding" power is decreased markedly.
* The deep-tint bases, "Neutrals", are almost CLEAR!
* WHITE/Pastel bases have a lot of hiding power, since there's a lot of Ti02.
* Dark-bases have to have less white in them, so colors can be deep & vibrant. White just "dulls/mutes" deep colors.

Soooo, putting these 2 sections together...
When you tint a "Burgundy"...you're adding a LOT of fairly transparent colorant to a pretty clear base. 
RESULT>>> CLEAR (well, almost!) Burgundy paint!!

NOW: Optics time!:blink: 
* White reflects all wavelengths of light.
* Black absorbs all light.
* If a White wall receives Burgundy paint....You've got a pretty-transparent color-layer going on a VERY-REFLECTIVE background  !
* Guess what THAT means...coat after coat after coat....

HOW to stop that you say?!?!?
* DARKEN THE BACKGROUND color :yes: !
* Black would be waaaay to dark, soooo a Medium-gray works well to cut most the light reflection through a transparent color-layer (Burgundy paint).
* Gray is the most "optically neutral" background color...it doesn't alter a color much at all.
* Pink & soft-yellow primer-colors are still TOO WHITE under Reds & Yellows.

EVEN WITH GRAY underneath...You've still gotta do TWO FULL (and I can't emphasize FULL enough!!!) coats!!!
EXCEPTION: 
Under real-bright "Citrus" tones...Lemon Yellow, Lime green, Bright Orange...I'd use about a 75%-strength-formula into a deep-tint primer.

Well, If you're still awake, I'll sign-off now!
Faron


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## Rich (Apr 26, 2007)

Faron79 said:


> OK...I'm gonna get "uber-geeky" here...:smartass: !!
> 
> The Red, Magenta, & Yellow colorants are the most transparent. They're "manufactured" vs. "Earth-based".
> 
> ...


well, I guess that about sums up my question in post #4
thanks...this is what I really wanted to learn :thumbsup:


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## Zip (Apr 18, 2007)

*Greys*

I once ran across a chromatic grey primer tint (depth) chart, specifying about 6 tones for priming under various finish colors. It's been lost so now I "eyeball" grey primers to match or go a slightly deeper tone than the finish I'm applying.
It's the only way to go on most all colors.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Some of my paint manufacturers only make a 'white' primer. My question is, sometimes you want to cover a really deep red wall with a navajo white or something. And you'd think the dark red would absorb the light - but it still is hard to cover with a white primer and two coats of TiO loaded off white paint.


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Faron, that was real good!

How about the clouds?

...Electrician put a box for the fan in the wrong place, or the plumber crossed his hot and cold, or the HVAC condensate drain line leaked...
And we make a drywall repair in the center of a lid, retexture to match, prime and paint.
When you walk in the door to the room, it shows up as a cloud in the ceiling because there is a window at the opposite side of the room.
Color drop-out...
and we've tried every different primer available to us, and painted the whole lid, twice! and still shows a cloud...

I may have discovered a solution we have not yet tried, but what would you say to resolve the prob?


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*The "Cloud-problem"!*

Tmrrptr & co.,
Evenin'!
This may sound dumb...by "lid" I'm assuming you mean ceiling for both descriptions?!?!

I'm also gonna assume you just primered the JUST THE PATCH area, but painted the whole ceiling twice...correct?
* If THIS is correct, the cloud will always show differently.
* It MAY decrease over time, but from the right angle, it'll still be there.
* Why?? 
Because this repair has a good primer-base on it. The rest of the ceiling-texture/flat paint is more porous, AND wasn't primed, so the main area will always show paint differently than the "primed patch".
* You could put 7 coats of paint over everything, & still see a whisker of difference possibly!
* It's a pain...BUT on repairs like this, it's maybe best to roll a thin coat of primer on the patch; then do a FULL-COAT of primer on the whole ceiling.
* THEN 2 coats of ceiling-paint!
* NOW the surface won't have any difference in absorption, and paint will show evenly everywhere.

Is this always practical??? Often...No, but if they're REAL fussy...it's just the only way!

Faron


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

*Plainpainter's question...*

Hello PP!

If presented with a drastic color-change like this...Red-to-White...I wouldn't rule out TWO coats of a good top-line primer.
* NOT a basic PVA-wallboard-only type...
* Something like Zinsser's Cover-Stain, or Odorless-Oil.
* If you're near a C2 dealer, use THEIR C2000 WBP. This is a great Latex-primer with awesome hide to it. One FULL coat of this would do it.
* ACE Enamel-Undercoater Latex has very good "dry-hide" too.

When doing a color-change is THIS direction...the principle is: 
Changing from....a light-absorbing" wall to a "light reflecting" wall effectively.
* Completely hiding a red will sometimes take 2 prime-coats...THEN 2 paint coats!!!
* You still need 2 paint-coats 'cuz that's your NEW color-layer, and you want it to have the right depth & durability.

Faron


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## Brian (Apr 10, 2007)

Faron,

That was probably the best explanation I've ever read regarding gray primers. I've long been aware of the hiding power of titanium dioxide, but you explained a whole lot more. Thanks.

Brian Phillips


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## Tmrrptr (May 4, 2007)

Thanks Faron.
Pretty much what we've tried...

I bought a magazine a while back with a painting done by Dru Blair of Tica, a hot Brasilian model... Dru says the color dropout shows as blue and it may be countered with a tad of orange.

Have not tried it yet.


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## oakley (Dec 14, 2007)

Devoe Paint offers 9 different gray scale primers, each suited to particular bright/deep colors. The grays are mixed in their universal-type primer. From what customers tell us, the individualized gray scales really work to help the finish hide. They also offer Ultra Color paint which allows those oranges, yellows, and retina-burning reds cover in 2 coats, guaranteed. It is the real deal.:thumbsup:


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