# last year paint faded already



## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

last year in about aug. they threw up a new housing development out my way and painted them,i drive by on a daily route so i watched them paint em,well it has yet to even be a year and all the houses are way faded out,the darker colors look like garabge..you would think there should at least be a year guarantee on the paint,but this is right down the road from my daily stop at the paint store and if they go in there looking for a painter my store always gives out my cards..:thumbup:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

If it is cedar, it could be oil stain which fades fast.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I see a lot of very expensive beach houses painted in deep bases with A-100 that do the same thing.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

Is it Hardie?


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## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

yep,good ol hardie painted in a garabge flat,what a waste!


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

It probably isn't the paints fault. We are seeing a lot of PH burn on homes. The factory primer applied by James Hardie is not doing a good job sealing the masonry, hence ph burn. SW now recommends uisng a masonry primer (loxon primer) then topcoating with paint. I would think most other mfg's are going in the same direction.


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## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

i maybe do 60% hardie,i ve never had a problem,two coats of super paint or duration,new or repaint over these guys who do it in flat with garabge keep me busy,i like the look of satin on the hardie and i know woodland does a lot of this to cause i drive by houses with hardie that woodland and i did 5 years ago and they still look good,could use a washing but not bad,how bout it woodland!


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Yep  I paint them to last  They better last. I just increased my warranty from 3 yrs to 5 (doesnt cover fading)


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## Mod Paint Works (Jul 2, 2010)

I've been seeing a bunch of this in Colorado as well. New developments that are maybe 2 yrs old and there are serious vertical stripes/fading.

www.mpwdenver.com
facebook.com/modpaintworks


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## RPS (May 13, 2010)

Pro Siding Plus Pittsburg. Fastest fading stuff I've seen.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Hate to say it but all this factory primed anything really should be reprimed. What makes this lousy factory primer situation worse is even when you reprime, the original factory primer can still fail beneath it.

Recently saw bleed through on factory primer coming from a major window manufacturer. Thankfully it was noticeable from the moment it arrived on the job. 

You do realize... the factory primer shipping on product today leaves you wide open for failure. Case in point, this thread.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

This is the first time I have heardvof failure on cement board from factory primers.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Could be the paint too. Who knows, you did a drive by.

This is a house less than 2 years old. Wish I had a better photo but the area in the center was applied to show how much it changed. This is a very popular exterior paint. The photo really doesnt do it justice on how much different the house looks.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

I paint a lot of HardiPlank. New Hardi should always be reprimed. I prefer Loxon myself. The thing about new construction is the money simply isnt there to prime. They are using products like Weather Clad or something simular. I love this cause 90% of my exteriors are homes 5 to 10 years old being painted for the first time since the origial paint job. I say....."Keep em coming"  I dont do NC, but do occaisionly get a customer with new siding. One coat primer and two coats of finish or I cannot waranty the job. Generally Satin like Billy mentioned. Yes, I love seeing the "faded houses"  I dont see faded paint, I see $$$$$$$$$$


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

SWGuy said:


> It probably isn't the paints fault. We are seeing a lot of PH burn on homes. The factory primer applied by James Hardie is not doing a good job sealing the masonry, hence ph burn. SW now recommends uisng a masonry primer (loxon primer) then topcoating with paint. I would think most other mfg's are going in the same direction.


when I have painted HB I have primed the whole thing with hydrosealer (mansory primer) first.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Did a community with hardi that came prefinished with SuperPaint Machine Finish.


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

Duration is self-priming...one-coat new Hardi with it? 

Also, instead of priming with Loxon, can you just test the PH of the Hardi to see if it's settled down since it was shipped?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

The hardi primer being the problem does fit what I have been seeing in the last 4 or so years. Hard to sell that to a homeowner though. I have one coming up that is only 5 years old, NC and its faded like its 20+ years old.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> The hardi primer being the problem does fit what I have been seeing in the last 4 or so years. Hard to sell that to a homeowner though. I have one coming up that is only 5 years old, NC and its faded like its 20+ years old.


I'm going to drive over to that community I mentioned with the prefinished hardi next week. I'll get some pics. The color was Alabaster. The painting was done in 2007 so I am curious now what the factory stuff looks like almost 4 years later.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

One would think the big paint companies would work with James Hardie and come up with a solution. I would say about 70 % of the painted homes in my area are using some form of Hardie. 

I mentioned this to my SW store last summer thinking it was their paint that is the problem. There was no talk about the primer being the issue. 

This fading issue has become a big problem in the last few years.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

BreatheEasyHP said:


> Duration is self-priming...one-coat new Hardi with it?
> 
> Also, instead of priming with Loxon, can you just test the PH of the Hardi to see if it's settled down since it was shipped?


 Personally, I dont believe in one coat on exteriors with any product. I even do two coats with Aura.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Woodland said:


> Personally, I dont believe in one coat on exteriors with any product. I even do two coats with Aura.


There is so much to be said about millage, product and dried films. When you sit down with samples of product (inside or outside) applied according to suggested millage (or even over) and use a piece of sand paper to sand the finish until it burns out - you'd be surprised how easily some paints burn to nothing, quick. But when you get a product that you have to sand aggressively to burn, thats when you'll know you have something durable.

Also its good to pay attention to applied vs dried mils on the TDS but even that doesn't necessarily mean you have something that will last just because you applied it properly. Testing paints for me is making them fail any way possible to find out what it takes. How easy or how hard.

As far as adhesion goes.. those paints that stick to the inside of 5 gallon buckets always impress me. We all know many paints dont stick to the inside walls of a 5 very good. Some release when you fill the bucket with water. Like I am going to stick that on someones house. :blink:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Skin is another good adhesion test for acrylic paint. If it washes off easily from your hands then you have a good indication of adhesion.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Skin is another good adhesion test for acrylic paint. If it washes off easily from your hands then you have a good indication of adhesion.


Speaking off adheasion, I know Shermax caulking sure doesnt come off your hands easy as other caulks do. :thumbup: Takes forever to dry, but a very good product


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Is the other product similar is composition, cement board? If so, I will edit hardie out to the generic cement board since I think the info is good in the thread.


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## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> One would think the big paint companies would work with James Hardie and come up with a solution. I would say about 70 % of the painted homes in my area are using some form of Hardie.
> 
> I mentioned this to my SW store last summer thinking it was their paint that is the problem. There was no talk about the primer being the issue.
> 
> This fading issue has become a big problem in the last few years.



you really think sherwin williams would admit to a problem with there product 
i was told cause i bought the paint from two different sw stores that the colors would do that look faded
then i was asked what primer i use and i told my rep your loxon he had no answer
my question is what does the primer have to do with the finish coat fading
the next house i used glidden and didn't have any problems at all still to this day i drive by and see both house paint same color but two different manufactures and the glidden house looks alot better


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

If the factory primer isn't sealing the masonry as it should then it could cause all kinds of problems because of the ph of the hardi.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> If the factory primer isn't sealing the masonry as it should then it could cause all kinds of problems because of the ph of the hardi.


But that wouldn't cause fading IMHO


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Probably didn't get the minimum required mils of thickness on it. See alot of that in our area also. I always liked when the new tracts of homes went up....within 3-5 years there was a good potential for money to be made. Plus, instead of 3 or 4 color options throughout the development, the HO's finally had a chance to pick their own colors. Just made our paint jobs look that much better.


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## Mod Paint Works (Jul 2, 2010)

Got called for a re-paint today. The home was built in 2005 and they just got hit from HOA for fading. It's been six years, but the fading is pretty intense. They are selling their home so they want to invest the minimum. I am not one to do a 'blow and go', but that's what the homeowner is looking for. They want to freshen the curb appeal to sell the home at the cheapest possible cost. How can I live with myself knowing that I just 'covered up' the problem?
Not sure what to think of these calls for a quick, single coat. Don't want to give the new homeowner a headache in 2-3 years from fading/failing paint.
I know others deal with this. It's hard to turn down projects when in the first couple years of business.
How do you deal?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am sitting here doing numbers for the last two jobs we did.

One was a high end interior repaint, and I was excited to have some nice work again. It had been a while since I have done something that nice.

Everything top of the line, every surface was flawless and no detail overlooked. I am making less money from it, a 88 hour job than I made off a exterior spray and back roll of a brick office repaint with a little carpentry. Total of 22 man hours. 

You tell me, you provide the customer what they want and make money, so that should satisfy your business right? 

I do know what you mean, the new owners/neighbors remember who painted that home last and one bad word destroys ten good ones.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

MOD, If the customer wants a hot dog, give it to them. I don't see the problem, especially if you aren't changing colors. The prep isn't going to change that much. Still going to get washed, spot primed, caulked where needed, etc etc.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

billy the kid said:


> i maybe do 60% hardie,i ve never had a problem,two coats of super paint or duration,new or repaint over these guys who do it in flat with garabge keep me busy,i like the look of satin on the hardie and i know woodland does a lot of this to cause i drive by houses with hardie that woodland and i did 5 years ago and they still look good,could use a washing but not bad,how bout it woodland!


When I went into Hillsboro this morning to pick up the trailer, I took a detour and passed by a few exteriors we did back in 2006 and 2007 off Evergreen and Glencoe. They still look like they were done last week. :thumbup: I also saw a few of the exteriors I lost to other painters and they already need painting again!  Hmmmmm :whistling2:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> But that wouldn't cause fading IMHO


Nope. The exteriors Billy is refering to are simply fading due to a low grade paint and not much of it on either. Of course new HP is going to come out better if its reprimed, but in NC the money simply isnt there. Im glad though. Every new housing project I see go up means possible new clients in a few years. :yes:


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## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

hey woodland maybe we can write a badazz country song about houses fading and ready for the repaint call:thumbup:


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm not convinced about the necessary millage for covering Hardi. I recently hung out with some of their reps at a trade show and frankly I believe the only reason to paint it is to make it look nice. I've done quite a few Hardi plank homes over the past 3 years and have yet to see one peeling. (Though I'm sure some repaints will fail...)

Even if the color washed out, don't the boards already have considerable millage on them? It has yet to be seen, but I intuitively doubt that many premium paint products will show significantly more color fading with one coat than with two. 

My best guess is that the reason the paint is fading is because the initial painters 1) diluted with floetrol and water and 2) used poor quality paint. 

pH burn - Admittedly, my understand of pH is mostly from studying ocean acidification (which should scare the crap out of all of us). But a lot of it applies...

the pH of paint decreases in acidity over a long period of time. The most dramatic drop is within the first 7 days, then a significant drop over the first month. This is due to the change in available hydrogen ions as active lime in the cement absorbs carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. The pre-priming of the boards probably inhibits the curing of the concrete, which means it that prolongs the high acidity of the substrate. 

I have yet to meet a scientist who's worked on primers that are supposed to work with high pH levels, but frankly I'm doubtful. pH measures the _concentration _of available hydrogen ions - therefore it's a completely different scenario if you're working with different ratios of thickness to surface area. Conclusion: The primers are likely to be proven effective given certain conditions, but that scientific information is largely unavailable to us.

pH strips aren't expensive and I suggest checking pH on your next couple repaints, which I'm planning on doing (but never thought to do before.) Maybe I'll even find a new Hardi job and test that just for fun.


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## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

bravo!:notworthy:


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## Faron79 (Dec 11, 2007)

Yep! ph burn-thru is definitely an issue/cause for primer-peeling.

As mentioned, there are specific primers that'll handle a higher ph.

This link is from SW own site....http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/problem/tips/substrates/

FADING is another non-related issue ENTIRELY....
Certain colors fade much faster than others:
* "Artificially created" colorants like Blues, Reds, Magentas, & Yellows are most vulnerable, especially in deeper tones.
* "Natural" mineral-derived colorants fare much better...like Whites, Browns, Blacks, Umbers, Red & Yellow-Oxides.
* These do vary depending on the quality of the colorant-line used though!!!
* C2 paints have High-strength Reds, Yellows, Blues, and Black...in addition to the "regular" strength version colorants. There's 16 available colorants. The cost of a quart of High-strength RED?!?!?...don't ask....

Faron


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

WTF????? Just prime it & paint it!!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

OR..just use a product with 100% acrylic colorants and not worry about deep colors fading badly.


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> OR..just use a product with 100% acrylic colorants and not worry about deep colors fading badly.


 
I have seen aura do it also. What other solutions do you have?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

^That..

I will take some pics hopefully Saturday of at least 20 Mc Mansions on the way to our beach house painted in mostly Super Paint that looks awful after only 3-5 years. Many are probably considered pastels as well which makes it even worse. 

Maybe Wolfy has a point about improper film build though. I bid on some of these a few years ago and I was told by a few homeowners I was way high, one even said I was 5k over the winner.

I need a solution because I have a big one coming up, and the owner told me she would skin me if it faded in 4 years.


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## BigDogPainting (Apr 13, 2011)

What do you guys mean when you are talking about ph burn and testing the ph?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

SWGuy said:


> I have seen aura do it also. What other solutions do you have?


Maybe, I personally haven't seen it yet. The color retention is much better with the acrylic tints. Even in the less expensive lines, the ones on the new tint system hold their color much better than their brothers on the glycol based tint system.

Ill be interested to see how SW's new system does.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> I need a solution because I have a big one coming up, and the owner told me she would skin me if it faded in 4 years.


Customer sounds hardcore. What are your options so far? Anyone have any long term houses with Resilience? I like how that paint spreads. The white seemed to cover good at least on new materials, pre-primed, pvc, fiberglass etc.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Customer is ok, I have worked for her for over 15 years. This is a new house that is fading bad after 4 years. I didn't paint it, the GC who built it said I was unrealistic in my bid. :whistling2:

I have not used Resilence in Deep bases only whites. It still looks very good though.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> I didn't paint it, the GC who built it said I was unrealistic in my bid. :whistling2:


Its hard to blame the painter on NC jobs. They're working for peanuts in most cases, so I cant fault them for using cheap products. They're only doing what the GC is willing to pay for. I CAN blame them for shotty work, or cutting corners.

I gave up on NC years ago. Too much of a headache for no money. I cant stand the calls and visits. Especially when you show up at a job for a "paint issue" only to discover that a ceiling has 1 coat, and 16 spots that were "touched up" with a weenie roller. 

Paint fading on NC homes is expected. In most cases, if the paint holds up for a year, thats all it has to....just enough to outlast the home warranty.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> I didn't paint it, the GC who built it said I was unrealistic in my bid. :whistling2:


 "Unrealistic" LOL Yeah, I get pretty much the same reply everytime I bid on a new house, so I dont waste my time on them anymore. I do think some of it depends on the area, builder, etc. Rob seems to be doing well on NC in S Utah. Not the case in these parts though.


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

Isn't Resilience just a few years old? 

I used it on a rather large house in 2008. I should make a trip over there sometime soon. 

je!f



jack pauhl said:


> Customer sounds hardcore. What are your options so far? Anyone have any long term houses with Resilience? I like how that paint spreads. The white seemed to cover good at least on new materials, pre-primed, pvc, fiberglass etc.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Yes but I only have it on for 1 year so far.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Did this repaint in '06 with Sherwin-Williams super paint. Had to do it again last year.
Maybe if I would have primed it...


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Its hard to blame the painter on NC jobs. They're working for peanuts in most cases, so I cant fault them for using cheap products. They're only doing what the GC is willing to pay for. I CAN blame them for shotty work, or cutting corners.


Well... yes and no. The same painter simply doesnt know his product because you can spend the same money or less and achieve better lasting results.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Its hard to blame the painter on NC jobs. They're working for peanuts in most cases, so I cant fault them for using cheap products. They're only doing what the GC is willing to pay for. I CAN blame them for shotty work, or cutting corners.
> 
> I gave up on NC years ago. Too much of a headache for no money. I cant stand the calls and visits. Especially when you show up at a job for a "paint issue" only to discover that a ceiling has 1 coat, and 16 spots that were "touched up" with a weenie roller.
> 
> Paint fading on NC homes is expected. In most cases, if the paint holds up for a year, thats all it has to....just enough to outlast the home warranty.


Yea I didn't even do much NC even during the boom when I had GCs calling me all the time. I had three I would work for, its the same everywhere it seems. 



Woodland said:


> "Unrealistic" LOL Yeah, I get pretty much the same reply everytime I bid on a new house, so I dont waste my time on them anymore. I do think some of it depends on the area, builder, etc. Rob seems to be doing well on NC in S Utah. Not the case in these parts though.


 You know I started to push the homeowner to demand that he use me I could have gotten it very easily, but I had plenty of work at that time. It would have meant me adding a crew to meet their schedule. So I let it go. 

I did tell the homeowner not to blame the other PC, he did what he was getting paid for. Funny thing is this is one of the "premier" custom builders in the area. :turned:


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Bender said:


> Did this repaint in '06 with Sherwin-Williams super paint. Had to do it again last year.
> Maybe if I would have primed it...


One coat or two? Flat or Satin?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

1 coat satin.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21327352

We did this building when it was new about 7 years ago . In making a long story short...the siding is now down to almost dust in places . I don't know what caused it to fail but I honestly think the constant blasting of sand off of the beach had a lot to do with that . I was called back again last season to do it again and I informed them that it was a waste of money and that they should contact the siding manufacture . I am glad that I did not supply the top coat paint ...it was supplied by the builder and it was a Color Your World product . I can't remember if it was Hardi or a competitor . I have done others and they pretty well all look great at this point . I also have looked at some prefinished jobs and they also look good . 

It should be also noted that the winds here are very very very high and where the restaurant is located is home to the Atlantic Wind Test Site . I don't thing any product will ever hold up on a building in that area...a great place for a paint company to test products though !!!!!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

playedout6 said:


> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21327352
> 
> It should be also noted that the winds here are very very very high and where the restaurant is located is home to the Atlantic Wind Test Site . I don't thing any product will ever hold up on a building in that area...a great place for a paint company to test products though !!!!!


Dont be silly, they test in labs.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

A couple of years ago a 1600sf split level entry NC tract home exteriors were being painted for [email protected] in this area....that included materials. The guy doing them said he and his crew of five, (2 maskers), had to do a minimum of four a day to make any money. He paid his guys by the house, ie: the maskers made $30 each per house. What was real sad was when he said he also did CertaPro houses, and that he really liked them because that's where he made the "real money". (Part of me was so depressed for him when I heard this, I almost had to up my Prozac dosage. The other part of me was jumping for joy as I knew they had the potential to be money in my pocket in a few years.)

His "technique" was to lay it on heavy, give it a few minutes to take a tack, and send his guys over it with soaked rollers. No primer on the raw wood trim, but if you asked the developer, they always said that the paint was "self-priming".


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Bender said:


> Did this repaint in '06 with Sherwin-Williams super paint. Had to do it again last year.
> Maybe if I would have used BM Aura...


 :yes:


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

That's a pretty dark color...or was lol....we've used Superpaint Satin on a number of exteriors, in particular one that was a medium sky blue and another was a grey. I pass both on a semi regular basis and after stopping by last year, each looked great still, no fading. And that was 6 years ago....

Lots of variables...


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## OraarO (Oct 19, 2007)

SWGuy said:


> It probably isn't the paints fault. We are seeing a lot of PH burn on homes. The factory primer applied by James Hardie is not doing a good job sealing the masonry, hence ph burn. SW now recommends uisng a masonry primer (loxon primer) then topcoating with paint. I would think most other mfg's are going in the same direction.


This is what my local rep recommended, and for the same reason. After almost one year, the colors still look great.:thumbsup:


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