# How to Break into NC



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok guys, I do some new construction projects for contractors I met through my COC and BNI Network but I am looking for more NC work. For all you vets, what's the best way to break in? What can I do to get some of these guys to use my company? Thanks in advance for your answers.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Why do you want NC work? In your experience do you think you have good enough systems in place to be profitable with a tight schedule, high demand and little room for error in pricing?


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Hmmm......

Doesn't quite answer the question. Here it is again, what steps have some of you guys (and gals) used to break into new construction jobs and to get builders to give you a chance?

I'm not concerned about the estimating techniques and deadlines, I'll be able to handle it - thanks for your concern. Anyone other than Neps want to give me an answer?


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

boy it seems like you blow in here once a month or so and ask a question and expect an immediate answers?? 

Hows the 200$ a room going for you? still doing two a day??


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You break hasn't made you any smarter I see. Good luck in your next career path. Walmart sales are up. I hear they are hiring bag boys.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> boy it seems like you blow in here once a month or so and ask a question and expect an immediate answers??
> 
> Hows the 200$ a room going for you? still doing two a day??


I totally forgot that he was the dope that started that thread ...I never would of answered this one.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't ask for an immediate answer. Just an answer to the question without weeding through the dumb responses. $200 per room landed me a $3000 interior last month and no, it wasn't 15 rooms. All in all 37 new clients out of it - 3 of them only wounded up spending 200, the rest were upsold, as was the point. 

Now, can anyone that has an answer share or am I stuck with you two for the rest of the night?


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Talk to other trades/subs, every job we are on we give cards to the other trades, and collect theirs to recommend. They can tell you what other GC's are looking, which to avoid. 
I assume COC is your local Builders Assoc? If not, join, be active.
There was a thread on CT that talked about a packet for sending to GC's, most of the contractors there said they throw away unsolicited mail. A face to face intro was better.
If you can find a project manager on a job site, take him to lunch!
You almost need to interview the GC's! We have worked for several and now mainly 2 that value quality and dependability over price.
There is a lot of people who hate NC, it is great for us (Rob is not what you would call a people person) with the right GC and procedures it can be very profitable!


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Thanks RCP. I have sent every builder in my area letters, brochures, etc. Without a large response I guessed that those letters were getting tossed. Looks like a more hands-on approach will be needed. I appreciate the straight forward answer.

Best wishes for a profitable 2009.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I didn't ask for an immediate answer. Just an answer to the question without weeding through the dumb responses. $200 per room landed me a $3000 interior last month and no, it wasn't 15 rooms. All in all 37 new clients out of it - 3 of them only wounded up spending 200, the rest were upsold, as was the point.
> 
> Now, can anyone that has an answer share or am I stuck with you two for the rest of the night?


Seriously Pinn ....37 clients for $3k ...are you serious? and only 3 spent $200 ..what did the rest pay ...$40 ? 

:jester:

clean up asle 4


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

37 clients for $3000????

1 client for $3000.
3 clients for $199.
33 clients for an average of $515 each

Sorry if I was unclear - but I don't think I was. I said "$200 per room landed me a $3000 interior last month and no, it wasn't 15 rooms."


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Depends on the builders you are going for. The cookie cutter guys are down right now. The middle is the first to collapse. I would try the small remod/addition types and see if its a good fit, or find the larger custom builders (who always already have painters), and do one of their small jobs that their regulars cant fit in, and blow them away with your quality and service. 

In my case, I have desirable accounts. My pm's tell me everytime someone markets to them. They throw low low prices at them, and they dont go for that. Get the foot in the door, and then its sink or swim. 

My only cautionary tale is that nc is not the promised land. It happens to be the thing I know best, so I stick with it, but even at its best its love/hate for me. Right now I love it, mostly. My winter would be sucking ace without it.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

NEPS-

I come on this site every month or two because I get tired of people like you putting their two cents in on a forum where a very simple question is asked. When I first got here this forum was terrible but it seems like most of the idiots that couldn't just let this forum do it's job and answer people's questions have left. I see that not all of them have.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I come on this site every month or two because I get tired of people like you putting their two cents in on a forum where a very simple question is asked. When I first got here this forum was terrible but it seems like most of the idiots that couldn't just let this forum do it's job and answer people's questions have left. I see that not all of them have.


Who are you talking to? I hope not me. My response was sincere.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Vermont,

I like doing NC. That being said, I'd prefer it to be 50% of my business. I think repaints can be much more profitable but that doesn't mean you can't make s--t on NC. We do some NC now (maybe 20% of my business) but I would like that number to increase due to the current market.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

And no Vermont, I wasn't talking to you - I was talking to Neps


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Vermont,
> 
> I like doing NC. That being said, I'd prefer it to be 50% of my business. I think repaints can be much more profitable but that doesn't mean you can't make s--t on NC. We do some NC now (maybe 20% of my business) but I would like that number to increase due to the current market.


Its good to diversify. NC is as hard hit in general as any market right now. It honestly is much more cutthroat right now than I have seen it. I have two large jobs that I hold contracts on. I have one competitor who continued to approach my gc's even after they told him I held the contracts and they would refuse to consider anything else. This is unprecented dirtbaggish competitiveness. That has never happened before. 

I've gone just the opposite way. In the past 5 years we were about 90% nc. I wanted a better balance. Its hard to find that balance without appearing to be all things to all people, which is usually interpreted as I will do anything for a buck.


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Who are you talking to? I hope not me. My response was sincere.


I would assume me and NEPS... I didn't have an answer cause I stay away from NC like its the plague.. I would do high stuff if I have the chance..

My guess is you aren't going to find much NC cause there isn't much going on in general and especially in MI. I would think any GC's that may bite on your intro's would be looking for someone that is cheaper then the guy they have now, by the sounds of your operation that you would be the cheaper guy...

Maybe if times are tough instead of trying to keep a full crew you may have to let someone go... I know its not the best solution but times are tough...

You seem like a decent enough guy but to me you come here looking to stir the pot every so often then you leave when you don't hear what you want to and they try again a month or so later...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I come on this site every month or two because I get tired of people like you putting their two cents in on a forum where a very simple question is asked. When I first got here this forum was terrible but it seems like most of the idiots that couldn't just let this forum do it's job and answer people's questions have left. I see that not all of them have.


Listen up Pinn .... I was asking you a legitmate question to start this thread off. I complete over 100 NC projects a year. MY questions were legitimate because in this market if you dont know how to make money in NC they will chew you up and spit you out. Dont forget ...your starting a relationship off with them in a weak position .....your asking them for work. Their not approaching you. For every guy like you trying to get their attention there are 20 more behind you. Systems and methods are what you need to be profitable and that is probably the worst market in the painting business to try to break right now in this economy. 

I think your the one that started this off on the wrong foot buddy boy.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> And no Vermont, I wasn't talking to you - I was talking to Neps


Just for the record, I talk to NEPS just about daily. We run very similar operations and share alot of information. His honesty is offensive to some, but I would listen to his points. There are is a small percentage of guys in this business who grow and succeed without compromising their values, NEPS is one of those guys. Personally, I like a colleague who doesnt sugar coat it. He will tell me when I am in left field and I appreciate that. 

I do think, as I have said many times, that you are an intelligent and ambitious guy, but sometimes your ideas are presented in ways that might look like they are coming from left field. Therein, I believe, lies the disconnect between you and NEPS.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)




----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wiseguy


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Just for the record, I talk to NEPS just about daily. We run very similar operations and share alot of information. His honesty is offensive to some, but I would listen to his points. There are is a small percentage of guys in this business who grow and succeed without compromising their values, NEPS is one of those guys. Personally, I like a colleague who doesnt sugar coat it. He will tell me when I am in left field and I appreciate that.
> 
> I do think, as I have said many times, that you are an intelligent and ambitious guy, but sometimes your ideas are presented in ways that might look like they are coming from left field. Therein, I believe, lies the disconnect between you and NEPS.


I think Pinn has a chip on his shoulder over a few of my comments to his $200 a room thread. The #2 post in this thread was not patronizing in any way. It was a legitimate question. Taking on NC work isnt what you do on whim because all of you other work has dried up or because you've finally figured out $200 a room doesnt cut it. Now doing work with low profit margins and waiting 30-90 days for your money is something that will tack the last nail in the coffin for many this winter.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I think that my problem is the fact that when I ask a question people want to jump down my throat for past posts. My $199 post actually received a great response from tons of people on this site. I had to explain it to quite a few people who also wanted to run the ad in their neighborhood. It doesn't make me the cheapest painter, it makes me the cheapest advertiser. The point of the ad wasn't to paint anyone's home for $199, it was to get the phone ringing. It worked for me and my point on the post was that I would rather make $150 a day than to be sitting around my house contemplating a part time job while I am waiting for the phone to ring. Sadly, a lot of painters had to do that this year. Fortunately, I didn't. And for the next three weeks, I know I won't have to. And while I am not raking it in the way I did this summer, at least I am still getting my name out there.

A lot of people had a problem with that post. That's was confuses me. It's a simple concept and some don't want to or don't have to do that. But I'd say that more than would like to admit had to and still have to in order to survive. It's not a bad thing and I didn't think it needed to be debated. It was just an idea. I didn't understand everyone's problem with it.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MAK-Deco said:


> .
> You seem like a decent enough guy but to me you come here looking to stir the pot every so often then you leave when you don't hear what you want to and they try again a month or so later...


Since we are being frank here, Pinnacle it was you who introduced yourself to this forum last year as the guy who did some ridiculous amount of revenue by painting 20000 garage doors per month. Then, you came back as the $200 pioneer. So, showing up to do ready to crack the nc market (dismal undertaking, lets be real), would cause the reasonable minds here (NEPS included) to have a question or two. Just keepin it real. 

Its good to be enthusiastic and ambitious, but its true that every slow painter right now is conjuring up any scheme just to survive. Don't look like them.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Maybe it wasn't patronizing, and if not I am sorry. It's just irritating that every thread I've ever written starts off with an off topic question. You do 100 NC per year. How did you wind up with those builders?

I know that this moment is not a great time to get in. Who doesn't. The fact is though, a lot of the tradesmen around here are skipping town and that could not be more true than of painters. When the bottom falls out, I want to be there. i want to be there to pick up all of their clients, and especially all of their builders. This is not a matter of me wanting to get in tomorrow, it's a matter of two years down the road I would like my company to be involved in 30% more NC jobs.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Vermont, last year I came here and told a guy what I would have charge for a garage door. Then I got attacked for answering his pricing question and then somebody told me there was no way to be profitable painting garage doors at that price. So I gave an example of what I would be making if I painted 4 garage doors a day. It was a joke.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

And if NC is so terrible, why do you do so much of it?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Vermont, last year I came here and told a guy what I would have charge for a garage door. Then I got attacked for answering his pricing question and then somebody told me there was no way to be profitable painting garage doors at that price. So I gave an example of what I would be making if I painted 4 garage doors a day. It was a joke.


Seemed like alot of time and energy going into a joke, and I dont remember a punch line or any clarification on that. Glad to hear that wasnt real. Again, I have said it in a number of posts to you that I think you have some good things on the ball, and you are coming across the wrong way sometimes. Dont be offended when your threads arent answered in the first couple of posts here. That doesnt happen much on any online forum.

Thats why I prefer to network directly with those who I am interested in getting opinions from.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Somebody call Todd...


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> And if NC is so terrible, why do you do so much of it?


Because I love it. There is nothing more exhilirating than putting a good contract together for a several month project that has to result in perfection. Its the challenge. If I wasnt established in it now, I dont know how (other than what I mentioned in my first post) I would break in. I broke in at the perfect time. Did my first one in '96 and one thing led to another.


----------



## cullybear (Mar 10, 2008)

I think on new construction you cant get down there with the bottomfeeders. You know the guys who only want low price and stay away,look for the guys you can provide great service for( like having them call on tuesday and saying the drywall is ready to paint tommorow and not complaining about it and get it done) alot of builders see that as much of cost savings as low price. My builders know about what I charge and they are not surprised when the bill comes even though I know and they know they can get it cheaper. Building new construction clients is a slow process. I talk to contractors all the time (while never asking for their work)that have there painters already set with them,but you never know when things can change and they might be calling me tommorow to paint there house. New construction is nice to have a foundation but give me commercial repaints anyday. I would never want to do strictly new


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Maybe it wasn't patronizing, and if not I am sorry. It's just irritating that every thread I've ever written starts off with an off topic question. You do 100 NC per year. How did you wind up with those builders?
> 
> I know that this moment is not a great time to get in. Who doesn't. The fact is though, a lot of the tradesmen around here are skipping town and that could not be more true than of painters. When the bottom falls out, I want to be there. i want to be there to pick up all of their clients, and especially all of their builders. This is not a matter of me wanting to get in tomorrow, it's a matter of two years down the road I would like my company to be involved in 30% more NC jobs.


deleted .... PM me if you want some info


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> . I am not raking it in the way I did this summer


While I'm not sure "raking it in" is the right phrase to use for having a good summer, I bet we could count on one hand the guys here who are doing as well right now as they did last summer. I dont know about y'all but I have very different financial goals and expectations in the summer that in the winter because there are so many more options for consistent profitable work from April to October. You may never hit those numbers year round. Thats what keeps us on our toes. The idea is to head into the winter with a little cushion.


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> The idea is to head into the winter with a little cushion.



That was my point on the whole "200$ room thread" if you are marketing yourself correctly year around and if you are pulling in better then usually daily numbers in the warmer months cause of exteriors you should be able to weather a small storm in the winter.. If you have the cushion you can "afford" to take some time off... 

I wish I had time off i look forward to having some time off in the winter for vacations trips and hobbies that I enjoy but it didn't happen cause of the way I marketed for this winter... I will happily sit on my couch then sell myself for less than I am worth...


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

MAK-Deco said:


> That was my point on the whole "200$ room thread" if you are marketing yourself correctly year around and if you are pulling in better then usually daily numbers in the warmer months cause of exteriors you should be able to weather a small storm in the winter.. If you have the cushion you can "afford" to take some time off...
> 
> I wish I had time off i look forward to having some time off in the winter for vacations trips and hobbies that I enjoy but it didn't happen cause of the way I marketed for this winter... I will happily sit on my couch then sell myself for less than I am worth...


easy Mak ...if I said this, there would be a lynching ....and VP would try to translate while giving me a backhanded slap.


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Bender said:


> Somebody call Todd...


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> . Talk to their other subs ...find out info ....try to get one of them to refer you. /quote]
> 
> This is probably the best point in the thread. I have gotten good solid leads from other trades we work with all the time. We see the same drywall, plaster, tile, stone, plumbing and electrical guys on most jobs, with little variation. Talent tends to find talent, its good to be in a good circle.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

pinnacle, the winner of a rat race is still a rat.

there is nothing that lasts forever in new construction.

these guys that think the gc loves em are mistaken.

the gc loves their price, and yes, the fact they complete the job very nicely and on time.

there are millions of painters out there that can deliver that.

you can be one of them if you want this corner of the market.

personally i avoid it like a disease.

i would suggest going to the offices of the gc's and talking to the project mgrs.

be neat in appearance, dont smell like an ash tray, use a firm handshake, and look them in the eye. if you do just these 4 things, youll be at the top 10%.

you need to SELL.

do you know other tradesmen or employees that work for these companies? if so you need to work them a bit,,,,,offer them a nice birddog fee for mentioning your name, talking you up, and if you land the job throw them some nice $$$$$.

gc's very seldom stay satisfied with their painter very long,,,,,they are disposable. this might offend some, but it's reality.

the gc's are tight now too,,,,,they are looking for ways to stay profitable in tough times. you can do this for them with good systems in place.

the gc's want the job done on time, and they need to have faith that youll deliver.

its easy to sell that.

are your sales/interpersonal commumications skills strong? if so, go get em.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> VP would try to translate while giving me a backhanded slap.


Don't go and pull that "I'm really a quiet sensitive guy" bit...Me and MJK will be showing up at your door.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

cullybear said:


> Building new construction clients is a slow process.


Very true. Everything about new construction is slow. The estimating, contract assembly, scheduling, decisions, everything EXCEPT the work. That tends to need to happen within pretty specific windows of time, schedule and budget. Its not for everyone. 

My rebellion is a day like today where I spend 5.5 hours of production time oil priming 11 door slabs, one side only. That'll fix 'em. Oh wait, its me who pays for that slow production. :blink:


----------



## dragula (Nov 19, 2008)

"Interpersonal Communication"

That's the ticket.

In the past year, if I put a color deck in the customers hand, I had about a 90% closing.

I am really good at getting people to like/trust me.

The best thing to do when with a customer (for me at least): Talk about the small things, notice their interests and expand, and don't try to sell (yes I said it).

I talk about their job, education, children, family etc. They become very personal.


I believe that you should sell YOURSELF, not the job. (but of course follow through with good work)


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Communication is huge. Not sure if GC's want to talk about these topics with us. Great for homeowners though.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

just jam these new houses out quick,,,,the high end ones even get repainted in a few years.

the best reason to do some new homes is getting to know the homeowner and their freinds/neighbors,,,,,,,and repaint their stuff (low stress, better money)


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

There are so many different flavors of builders too. When I first started I worked my ass of to get involved with one of the biggest construction companies in the country who had large residential division. This is where I had my first taste of "slow pay". I completed a sub division for them for ok money and busted my ass doing so. I used them like a feather in my cap and would walk on NC sites and introduce myself and tell them who I just completed a project for. This told the perspective GC's that I complete work, have NC experience at a high volume, understand deadlines, perform a level of quality while doing volume and that I can wait to get paid. Many GC's can not tolerate a sub knocking on their door as soon as their done for a check. 

It depends on what type of builder you want to target. Quantity or Quality. You cant expect turn and burn guys to transform into high quality guys painting a 10mil home ....and the reverse.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

here are some posts from gcs
http://www.contractortalk.com/f12/what-do-gcs-look-subs-48807/


----------



## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> easy Mak ...if I said this, there would be a lynching ....and VP would try to translate while giving me a backhanded slap.


Thanks for the laugh that was funny.

I agree with NEPS that it is a matter of having a good system, a balancing act of quality and speed. It takes a little practice to know how to approach the job. After doing them for awhile though it is just routine. It is a rough time to want to get into NC though. Lots of builders folding it up. 
It is just like any other gig though you need to sell yourself to get in the door. so you need to be talking to builder after builder after builder. Good luck Pinnacle.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NE 

I agree. Thats why I mentioned in my first post that the middle is gone, those were the bull and jam builders. They have nothing. The smaller remod/addition guys generally do pretty good quality, and the larger custom builders do excellent quality. At least thats how it is around here right now. 

So, there are painters who had 15 employees doing whitewash work for the bull and jammers, and now those guys are down to 2 and trying to find something to do. I think its important that whatever someones plan is, to make it sustainable. All these reactionary schemes that pop up are shortsighted and may put food on the table today, but make absolutely no sense in the bigger picture. I suppose if guys are truly starving, then you do what you have to do. However, if guys are truly starving, I think you are correct in suggesting that they get a job somewhere.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

This place gets turned upsidedown everytime Pinn stops by and tosses a grenade ....awsome:thumbsup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I really truly hope that he doesnt come back in and do that thing he usually does, which goes a little something like this:

_Well I can see that all you knowitalls have been backslapping and tooting your horns while I was away. Its easy for all of you business moguls to sit there and attack me but I have noticed that none of you has shown enough smarts to at least answer my simple question. Would you please just answer my question?_

Pin, please do not do this.


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> There are so many different flavors of builders too. When I first started I worked my ass of to get involved with one of the biggest construction companies in the country who had large residential division. This is where I had my first taste of "slow pay". I completed a sub division for them for ok money and busted my ass doing so. I used them like a feather in my cap and would walk on NC sites and introduce myself and tell them who I just completed a project for. This told the perspective GC's that I complete work, have NC experience at a high volume, understand deadlines, perform a level of quality while doing volume and that I can wait to get paid. Many GC's can not tolerate a sub knocking on their door as soon as their done for a check.
> 
> It depends on what type of builder you want to target. Quantity or Quality. You cant expect turn and burn guys to transform into high quality guys painting a 10mil home ....and the reverse.


Regarding NEPS and Marketing--Almost everything in business is leveraged. The key is to leverage correctly. I would suggest that other painting contractors here carefully note how NEPS used a previous successful subdivision project to attract even more work. 

NEPS illustrated his value to new general contractors by performing well and as contracted on previous jobs. When you have the goods my friends, you use them in your best interest. Don't be shy--tell prospective clients exactly what you have done well and why your experience benefits him. Sell specific benefits as in: "I completed 100 new units in 4 months and I will provide you the very same quality, service, and attention to detail that comes with every job I own. Please read the comments from GC Jones on my last completed contract with him so that you are comfortable with me and the sort of work I will provide for you." (Now--if you have no testimonials with attribution, get some. Want some ideas on how to do this? PM me.)

JTP


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i think he got some great answers.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

JTP said:


> Regarding NEPS and Marketing--Almost everything in business is leveraged. The key is to leverage correctly. I would suggest that other painting contractors here carefully note how NEPS used a previous successful subdivision project to attract even more work.
> 
> NEPS illustrated his value to new general contractors by performing well and as contracted on previous jobs. When you have the goods my friends, you use them in your best interest. Don't be shy--tell prospective clients exactly what you have done well and why your experience benefits him. Sell specific benefits as in: "I completed 100 new units in 4 months and I will provide you the very same quality, service, and attention to detail that comes with every job I own. Please read the comments from GC Jones on my last completed contract with him so that you are comfortable with me and the sort of work I will provide for you." (Now--if you have no testimonials with attribution, get some. Want some ideas on how to do this? PM me.)
> 
> JTP


Thanks JTP .......... I forgot price. Know your numbers. Be prepared to give them a price on the spot. Sell the job while you are in front of them. Dont wait for another appointment or a fax to get lost. Let them know this isnt your first time doing this and you know your numbers as well as you know how to paint.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

pinnacle, these 100 house per year guys do these dirt cheap, its very compeitive.


----------



## CobraCDN (Jan 8, 2008)

Personally I would not send out pamphlets. Jump in your truck and go find a job sup of a builder you have your eye on. Have a chat with him, maybe take him for lunch, maybe even take him to a job you have on the go. Shake his hand and tell him you hope to hear from him.

Cheers


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

Pen you have done the first step maiing out to all the gc. second step call them all just to ask if they got you info. third step while on the phone ask them if you can come buy and meet with them to give them some more info on you comp. Bring your w/c and liability paper, buisness licence etc... Heck you could go knock on doors all day long, something will turn up. Buisness cards left in the permit box, everywhear you see nc happening stop by and talk to super.


I always felt getting NC was very easy, getting out was a bitch.

Penn I think I answered your question, now for my opinion, LISTEN TO NEPS & SCOTT. I have done huge amounts of NC in my day, and I know Neps and scott have your best interest at heart when they are asking you questions, that seem to upset you. 

dave mac

Be very carefull about builders, check them out before you go work for them, and always put everything in writting, no matter how good you think your relationship is.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

cobra,,,, shake his hand and tell him you hope to hear from him????

a.b.c

always be closing

i think its wise to have a trial close.

if that doesnt work, ask why, and overcome objections.

then trial close again, and then close that deal.

this is how i would deal with a gc.

that market is so freaking competitive,,,,you have to get em while they are hot, and there is no better time than when they in front of you.

never just hope they will call you back.

go in for the kill.

there is a line of hungry painters behind you that will close him.


----------



## mjkpainting (Feb 12, 2008)

...Me and MJK will be showing up at your door.[/quote]


aint that the truth:thumbsup:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> pinnacle, these 100 house per year guys do these dirt cheap, its very compeitive.


A paint contractor could not possibly be successful,,,,,,using proper pricing methods. This is a myth.


----------



## CobraCDN (Jan 8, 2008)

high fibre said:


> cobra,,,, shake his hand and tell him you hope to hear from him????
> 
> a.b.c
> 
> ...



He came and saw my work... He'll call. I don't like the MLM pressure sales angle. I'm a tradesman not a telemarketer. 

Cheers


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I didn't read all of the posts because I got tired of the backbiting and whining. If this was covered before please excuse me.

What I would do (specially now that things are really slow) is stop by everything you see going up. Hand out cards, talk to the big cheese if possible. get the name out.

I don't do much NC because it was really cutthroat here. But having lived through all this before, you can bet that in a few years you will want to jump in. (I will) Plenty of painters will go under. The hacks won't be able to make it through the tough times leaving plenty on the table. Plus you should be able to get a better price.

Only new construction we do is for a couple of remodelers. And the occasional exterior that a builder's regular painter is too scared to do.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

Ok guys, I took some of your advice today and went out to sell myself. I took a little different approach though and went to the largest lumber yard in town. I figured that rather than going to the builders I would go to their suppliers. Long story short, they were sick and tired of the guy they have pre-staining their siding and want to exclusively contract me for all of their pre-stained woodwork for 09. I met everyone in the store and they are excited to have someone new at their disposal. 

I own a 3000 sq foot warehouse / workshop that I have been doing some pre-stained work in but this is a good sized job. They claim to sell roughly 200,000 lineal feet of pre-stained siding per year. We'll see, the papers are being drawn up now. To top that off, one of the owners is friends with the owner of a large condo community here in town and they are prepparing to paint next month. My bid is on Friday.

Thanks for those that answered (including Neps and Mak). I don't mean to stir the pot I just like getting to the point. Thanks for the help to all.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Ok guys, I took some of your advice today and went out to sell myself. I took a little different approach though and went to the largest lumber yard in town. I figured that rather than going to the builders I would go to their suppliers. Long story short, they were sick and tired of the guy they have pre-staining their siding and want to exclusively contract me for all of their pre-stained woodwork for 09. I met everyone in the store and they are excited to have someone new at their disposal.
> 
> I own a 3000 sq foot warehouse / workshop that I have been doing some pre-stained work in but this is a good sized job. They claim to sell roughly 200,000 lineal feet of pre-stained siding per year. We'll see, the papers are being drawn up now. To top that off, one of the owners is friends with the owner of a large condo community here in town and they are prepparing to paint next month. My bid is on Friday.
> 
> Thanks for those that answered (including Neps and Mak). I don't mean to stir the pot I just like getting to the point. Thanks for the help to all.


Pinn

I hope you were able to negotiate a good lf pricing structure. I have priced for yards a couple of times in the past year. Couldnt even get close to where they wanted to be on price, unless I was willing to do it at a loss. The volume and job security is nice. I hope it works out for you.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

did you call neps for advice on that blinking red phone?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> did you call neps for advice on that blinking red phone?


LOL ,,,,,,,,


----------



## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> Ok guys, I took some of your advice today and went out to sell myself. I took a little different approach though and went to the largest lumber yard in town. I figured that rather than going to the builders I would go to their suppliers. Long story short, they were sick and tired of the guy they have pre-staining their siding and want to exclusively contract me for all of their pre-stained woodwork for 09. I met everyone in the store and they are excited to have someone new at their disposal.
> 
> I own a 3000 sq foot warehouse / workshop that I have been doing some pre-stained work in but this is a good sized job. They claim to sell roughly 200,000 lineal feet of pre-stained siding per year. We'll see, the papers are being drawn up now. To top that off, one of the owners is friends with the owner of a large condo community here in town and they are prepparing to paint next month. My bid is on Friday.
> 
> Thanks for those that answered (including Neps and Mak). I don't mean to stir the pot I just like getting to the point. Thanks for the help to all.


Good Job!

My question is how you approached them? What did you offer or say to separate yourself from the crowd? Who did you initially speak to? How did you get to the decision maker?


----------



## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

A little off topic but not really, what ever happen to the builder that was gonna have you working at night time, on some really nice house's ??


----------



## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> A little off topic but not really, what ever happen to the builder that was gonna have you working at night time, on some really nice house's ??



I was thinking the same thing the other when you first posted this thread..


----------



## TooledUp (May 17, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> A paint contractor could not possibly be successful,,,,,,using proper pricing methods. This is a myth.





NEPS.US said:


> LOL ,,,,,,,,


Comma comma comma comma comma chamelion ,,,,,, we come and goooo ,,,,we come and ,,,,,,,,,

Is there a subliminal message in there ,,,,,? :yes: ,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

you can make a lot of money, you just need a good system, and have some deep pockets. this is a very competetive market. it would be foolish to argue that point.


----------



## Michigan11 (Dec 16, 2008)

Why in the word would you be looking to get into new construction now?

The trend is towards re-paints. You are countering the trend. 

Ride the wave.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

repaints rule.

gc's suck.


----------



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

A steady mix of NC and repaints can keep you busy in a slow economy. This is especially true in our area where most are retirees and farmers that are sitting on cash and still in the market for new homes.

We wound up doing a small job for the contractor that likes Vampire painters although the house he was building that I was hoping to get in on was held off (the owners are in the oil business and profits are down now that we aren't getting our heads ripped off at $5 p/g). He's actually a good guy to work for and my crew loved the overnight schedule surprisingly.

I took some samples to the lumber yard's "paint department" and hit it off with the guy. He introduced me to his boss who I pitched the pre-stain idea to and he said I'd have to speak to the owner next week. I asked if he was available right then and there and he went and checked and I wound up getting to meet him. I pitched my idea to him and he loved the fact that I am local and capable of doing touch-ups and maintenance in the field for his contractors after the fact. Long and short of it is that I got a contract in my hand today and all looks well. We agreed on a price that I am pleased with and that's still competitive and it looks like my company may be headed in a slightly different direction than most painters.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

pin said:


> it looks like my company may be headed in a slightly different direction than most painters.


Don't let the door knob hitcha where the dog shoulda bit cha

Kidding, good luck


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PinnacleResidential said:


> and it looks like my company may be headed in a slightly different direction than most painters.[/quot
> 
> Problem solved .....time to count the millions.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

shop work is nice too, because you have their stuff.

when you have their stuff you get paid quick.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

This whole shop thing sounds interesting and quite lucrative. I want to learn more about it. Does anyone know if there are any expenses or liabilities involved with harboring and transporting large quantities of other people's property? Or is it as simple as if I have a garage, I can call it a prefinishing shop and start taking in quantities of product?


----------



## JTP (Apr 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> This whole shop thing sounds interesting and quite lucrative. I want to learn more about it. Does anyone know if there are any expenses or liabilities involved with harboring and transporting large quantities of other people's property? Or is it as simple as if I have a garage, I can call it a prefinishing shop and start taking in quantities of product?


How do you spell a (short a sound) O? 

JTP


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

JTP said:


> How do you spell a (short a sound) O?
> 
> JTP


I guess I should be more specific. Starting a shop sounds like a great idea and a moneymaker. My questions are:

Will I need to carry any sort of a rider on my insurance for a prefinishing shop?

Do I need to take any kind of measures to guarantee air quality so that when lumberyards bring in materials at, say, 8% m.c., I can assure them that my shop will not elevate the levels?

Say one of my guys leaves the shop windows open over the weekend and all the lumber cups and twists, will I be liable?

Speaking of my guys, do I need to do anything for air quality for them so that in a year none of them can say that working in my shop with no attempt at air exchange caused them to get early stage lung disease?

Is there any kind of firecode that I need to be aware of if I am keeping large quantities of raw lumber in the same small space as large quanitities of paint thinner and other flammables?

Would I need to set up my shop with explosion proof lighting, etc?

If my shop did burn down (say from oily rags or something) with $80k worth of lumber in it, what happens?

Does OSHA regulate facilities like this?


I'm sure these other guys that sign prefinishing contracts on the spot have their homework done well in advance. I probably just worry too much, and should act more quickly when opportunities arise. PR has motivated me. Any thoughts on these concerns would be appreciated as I work through the decision making process?


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

there are tens of thousands of hillbilly paint booths out there.

dont ask me how i know.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

DISCLAIMER - THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK -

Pin,

I think Scott brings up some valid points. How do you plan on finishing the wood? Is your shop set up with adequate ventilation or a booth? Are you getting the proper insurance? Are they delivering or are you? What kind of volume and sales numbers do you expect? Do you have adequate heat? I really cant comment either way because I dont know the rates very well but I can imagine that if the lumber yard could have it prefinished at the factory for a cheaper price, they would. And I am pretty confident that a residential painting company could never come close to the rates of a factory. 

I explored this option years ago when I had a warehouse and was looking for a way for the space to make some money to help offset the costs. Just using it for storage and spraying occasional pieces wasnt enough. I looked at prefinishing but I couldnt compete. The start up costs of a shop booth, ventilation, shop spray rigs, drying racks, heat...heat is the real killer. Not to mention the fact that I or my paint store couldnt touch the volume pricing for the paint that a big warehouse could get. I explored having pallet drops at the shop and It was still very expensive. Not to mention your business structure would change and now you have inventory to account for and reconcile. It was too much of an investment do do large volumes of stock for small money. That was my experience. I hope you have better luck.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Pin is onto something. It sounds great for winter work, which is all I am concerned about right now. If I commit to a couple hundred thousand feet of prefinishing throughout the year, will I have to air condition my shop in the summer to keep humidity from being a problem? I am sure my guys wont want to be inside prefinishing with the windows closed in the summer, but I wont want the lumber being treated in basically outdoor air conditions. I wonder how that will play out. Johnthepainter says there are 10s of thousands of shops out there, so hopefully some of these guys will help us out. I tend to agree more with Pin, that we are going in a new direction that most painters arent with this.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Just curious: Did the owner of the lumber yard or a manager come out to inspect you facility before drawing up a contract to send you tens of thousands of dolars in product?


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> Just curious: Did the owner of the lumber yard or a manager come out to inspect you facility before drawing up a contract to send you tens of thousands of dolars in product?


With the current housing boom...


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

you guys take all the fun out of painting,,,,,with your legalities, environmental stuff, paperwork, fancy numbers and what not.

pinnacle, just do it,,,,,just like many other painters out there.

you dont need all that fancy stuff these guys are talking about. would it be nice to have custom spray booths, fire suppression, a fancy furnace to make up for the exhaust, but who cares?? that stuff costs a fortune, and after you pay for it, you would have to charge so much, they wouldnt use you.

make due. no fancy crap, just jam it out.

the lumber yards around me use local guys too,,,,not some big factory. 



best of luck, go get em'


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

You're right johnthepainter,,,,,I think its time to throw caution to the wind,,,,thanks for the nudge


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

_we No Need No Stinking Safety,,,,,,,,,,,,,,_


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

safety: big honkin exhaust fan, respirator, some common sense.

ive worked in all sorts of spray shops, and ive never seen or heard of an explosion, death, fire, or loss of limb. 

youd have to do somthing pretty stupid to have that type of an occurance shooting a trim pkg.

hillbillies all over the country are doing them as we speak, its not rocket science.

while it would be nice to have the trim fully air conditioned/heated and kept at a perfect moisture content, thats not the real world. how many guys here do trim pkgs in the new construction home they are painting, quite often in the basement under less than perfect conditions.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Not sure why I'm feeding the troll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/22/ap/national/mainD8LI2TQO0.shtml

now you'll respond by saying .

,,,they aint sprayin,,,,wood,,,,,,,

It's a real suprise that you begged the mod's to change your name for fear that people would find you through google. You really post some amazing stuff. 

It's more suprising that they let you do it.


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I think,,,, it has been proven,,,,,,spray fumes can,,,, kill brain cells!


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> ive worked in all sorts of spray shops,,,,,,


 
:laughing::w00t::lol::scooter::brows::boat:


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> I think,,,, it has been proven,,,,,,spray fumes can,,,, kill brain cells!


Most noteable,,,,,,symptom is overuse,,,,,of commas,,,,,,and general delirium,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the ammount of trim youve done for custom houses since 96 must be amazing,,lol


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Not sure why I'm feeding the troll:
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/22/ap/national/mainD8LI2TQO0.shtml
> 
> ...


 
maybe spray stuff thay wont explode easily.

and that place was a chemical plant,,,a far cry fro a small time spray shop.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> the ammount of trim youve done for custom houses since 96 must be amazing,,lol


its no longer measured in linear footage,,,,,miles

my goal in a few years is to turn into a sign shop,,,,,then build fishing shanties when there is,,,,no sign work


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

RCP said:


> I think,,,, it has been proven,,,,,,spray fumes can,,,, kill brain cells!


the fumes pale in comparison to the microdot and angel dust.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> its no longer measured in linear footage,,,,,miles
> 
> my goal in a few years is to turn into a sign shop,,,,,then build fishing shanties when there is,,,,no sign work


 
yes, either could be as profitable as a small painting contractor.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> yes, either could be as profitable as a small painting contractor.


 
yes,,,,it is a myth that a paint company ,,,, can be successful;:

it is propagated by manufacturers,,,,,

darch is on the phone with,,,,,,,mm from the chatroom,,,,to see if mm will take you in trade,,,,,arch isnt asking for much,,,,,,so far no deal,,,,and mm is pretty lonely,,,,sad,,,,,will keep posted,,,,,


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> yes,,,,it is a myth that a paint company ,,,, can be successful;:
> 
> it is propagated by manufacturers,,,,,
> 
> darch is on the phone with,,,,,,,mm from the chatroom,,,,to see if mm will take you in trade,,,,,arch isnt asking for much,,,,,,so far no deal,,,,and mm is pretty lonely,,,,sad,,,,,will keep posted,,,,,


I'll throw in a few bucks if it will help! 

LOL,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> yes,,,,it is a myth that a paint company ,,,, can be successful;:
> 
> it is propagated by manufacturers,,,,,
> 
> darch is on the phone with,,,,,,,mm from the chatroom,,,,to see if mm will take you in trade,,,,,arch isnt asking for much,,,,,,so far no deal,,,,and mm is pretty lonely,,,,sad,,,,,will keep posted,,,,,


 
i have no idea who you are talking about.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I'll throw in a few bucks if it will help!
> 
> LOL,,,,,,,,,,


 
they are shorthanded over there,,,,,and have no one to offer,,,,,arch is offering to do a player to be named later,,,,,poor john is like manny ramirez over here,,,,,


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/22/ap/national/mainD8LI2TQO0.shtml


Ya beat me to it. So I'll just add some pix of the "event"


*During:*











*After (this of a nearby business):*










*After - Ariel of neighborhood. Many houses were TOTALLED.*










Some how no one killed. 3AM. Woke a friend and his family up who lived just 1.5 miles away. - his daughter thought it was an earthquake


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> they are shorthanded over there,,,,,and have no one to offer,,,,,arch is offering to do a player to be named later,,,,,poor john is like manny ramirez over here,,,,,


Pinn is kind of like Scott Boras ....maybe a package deal?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Pinn is kind of like Scott Boras ....maybe a package deal?


They need players,,,,and agents,,,,over there,,,,I will be surprised if a deal cant be brokered,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

that dude is an imposter,,,,, and constantly stirring the pot.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

mm won't take,,,, a player who doesnt,,,,,know how to start,,,,a thread,,,,or post a picture of his work,,,,,,maybe our team,,,,,needs to consider that,,,,,as a contract clause


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

*johnthepainteronjohnthepainter*



high fibre said:


> that dude is an imposter,,,,, and constantly stirring the pot.


:jester:


----------



## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

kettle,,,,,,black,,,,,calling


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

who is this we you speak of? do you still have that turd in your pocket?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

those,,,,in,,,glass,,,,,,,houses,,,,,,,,shouldnt,,,,,throw,,,,,,,,stonz,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i think these hillbilly spray shops are more common than you think,,,,there are 5 in my hick town that i know of,,,,and not one legit spray shop other than a body shop.


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

they wont blow up, even with laquer sprayed in front of a cast iron stove,,,,thick fumes too. its safer than you think.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> i think these hillbilly spray shops are more common than you think,,,,there are 5 in my hick town that i know of,,,,and not one legit spray shop other than a body shop.


have you considered,,,,,the possibility,,,,,that there is a world,,,,,,,beyond the 20 mile radius,,,,,,,that your mystery machine,,,,,,,travels????? lolol


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> have you considered,,,,,the possibility,,,,,that there is a world,,,,,,,beyond the 20 mile radius,,,,,,,that your mystery machine,,,,,,,travels????? lolol


 
yes ,even potting sheds in vermont.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

crime and homelessness,,,,,are common,,,,,do you advocate those,,,,too?????:thumbup:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Is it true that Johnthepainter is two timing us for ICECREAMTRUCKTALK.COM ?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> yes ,even potting sheds in vermont.


 
I hope Nathan,,,,never gets,,,,close to ,, banning you again,,,,,, you are too funny,,,,,:thumbup:


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

is that potting shed really set up for the trim pkgs or do you do them on site?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Is it true that Johnthepainter is two timing us for ICECREAMTRUCKTALK.COM ?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Johnnysoftserve


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Is it true that Johnthepainter is two timing us for ICECREAMTRUCKTALK.COM ?


yes, thats me,,,not the stunt double at the chatroom.

i do a tranny routine, and sell pushups,,,,times are tough all over,,,


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> is that potting shed really set up for the trim pkgs or do you do them on site?


 
:brows: could probably fit ,,,,,,,24 of your shanties,,,,,and a couple,,,,of your 74 caddies,,,,inside,,,,,you could,,,,,,take cylinder heads,,,,,out and machine,,,,them,,,,,in there:thumbup:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

she's not you,,,,,,she doesnt know what to do ,,,,,,, all she wanted was a snow cone at 10am but you were passed out ,,,,,drunk,,,,,,on the floor of your ice cream truck,,,,,,,


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

he drank three rainbow reds,,,,,then he was ready to paint,,,,,,


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

if the economy gets worse ...... you could deliver bread


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> if the economy gets worse ...... you could deliver bread


yes,,,,people will need,,,,bread


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

just do it already .....


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

24 shanties @ 8' x 6' + 2 caddies @ 7'x18'=


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

this place is turning,,,,,,,into a sewer,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> this place is turning,,,,,,,into a sewer,,,,,,


i couldnt disagree more,,,,this is where the pros come to learn,,,,this place has cleaned up a lot since i mentioned sandbox behavior in another thread.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> i couldnt disagree more,,,,this is where the pros come to learn,,,,this place has cleaned up a lot since i mentioned sandbox behavior in another thread.


Ive always said you would save this place,,,,thanks


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> i couldnt disagree more,,,,this is where the pros come to learn,,,,this place has cleaned up a lot since i mentioned sandbox behavior in another thread.


its good you are,,,,here,,,,,

mm and arch,,,,,,couldnt work it out,,,,,,so we get to,,,,keep you,,,,,thats a relief,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the heads are done now, ill update my personal page for the curious though. how do i get all that stuff back together?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

maybe nathan will add,,,,,signpainttalk.com,,,,to his network of,,,,sites,,,,,,johnthepainter and his disciples,,,,,,could talk shop,,,,,all night long,,,,,,


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> if the economy gets worse ...... you could deliver bread


this would suck in the summer, the driver doesnt have a slider.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> the heads are done now, ill update my personal page for the curious though. how do i get all that stuff back together?


check with your,,,,,buddie dragula,,,,he can draw you,,,,,a schematic,,,,,,


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

johnthepainter

your comma key sticks,,,,,I think,,,,,


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

high fibre said:


> this would suck in the summer, the driver doesnt have a slider.


 
curbside door ...


----------



## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

goodnight ladies.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

high fibre said:


> this would suck in the summer, the driver doesnt have a slider.


this way,,,,,you dont fall out,,,,,on the way home from,,,,,the livery


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

what do you turn into,,,,,a pumpkin at midnight???????


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Christ! What a freakin mess. I turn my back for a minute, and look what happens.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

.........here it comes ....


----------



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> .........here it comes ....


You forgot IBTL.


----------

