# Is a career in painting even realistic?



## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Haven't been painting too terribly long but I've noticed some unsettling trends in my time in the bucket. I have a good job (given my experience) with typical painters hours. I make a good hourly rate ($15/hr which is very good for my area and having only about 16 months experience) now but as far as long term I'm uncertain how much I can realistically anticipate making. 
This isn't a hard numbers question. Rather it's a question of whether or not I'll be able to provide for my family and participate in the middle class American dream I assume we all want. Ten years from now am I really going to be making a rate that's commiserate with my experience and in line with national averages? I see guys every day in every other trade (non-union) with 20+ years experience. And I'd bet you dollars to donuts none of them are making twice what I do. Even the guys who own their own 'businesses' aren't making that much. And 'that much' isn't really all that much considering they have 15x the experience I do. (15 times!!!)


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

GreenGuy said:


> Haven't been painting too terribly long but I've noticed some unsettling trends in my time in the bucket. I have a good job (given my experience) with typical painters hours. I make a good hourly rate ($15/hr which is very good for my area and having only about 16 months experience) now but as far as long term I'm uncertain how much I can realistically anticipate making.
> This isn't a hard numbers question. Rather it's a question of whether or not I'll be able to provide for my family and participate in the middle class American dream I assume we all want. Ten years from now am I really going to be making a rate that's commiserate with my experience and in line with national averages? I see guys every day in every other trade (non-union) with 20+ years experience. And I'd bet you dollars to donuts none of them are making twice what I do. Even the guys who own their own 'businesses' aren't making that much. And 'that much' isn't really all that much considering they have 15x the experience I do. (15 times!!!)


If you do it right you can make really good money. I mean that's what I hear anyways


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

GreenGuy said:


> Haven't been painting too terribly long but I've noticed some unsettling trends in my time in the bucket. I have a good job (given my experience) with typical painters hours. I make a good hourly rate ($15/hr which is very good for my area and having only about 16 months experience) now but as far as long term I'm uncertain how much I can realistically anticipate making.
> This isn't a hard numbers question. Rather it's a question of whether or not I'll be able to provide for my family and participate in the middle class American dream I assume we all want. Ten years from now am I really going to be making a rate that's commiserate with my experience and in line with national averages? I see guys every day in every other trade (non-union) with 20+ years experience. And I'd bet you dollars to donuts none of them are making twice what I do. Even the guys who own their own 'businesses' aren't making that much. And 'that much' isn't really all that much considering they have 15x the experience I do. (15 times!!!)


1. Learn all you can during another 15 months and then start your own thing. 

2. Learn all you can in the next 15 months and then relocate to a place that offers union wages or non union higher wages. 

3. Grind it out as long as you can and while doing so find something you like to do more but plan your future carefully. 

4. Keep painting and hope your wife has a good job with good benefits. 

The list goes on and on.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

not really, unless you start your own business. I bought my first house while still working for someone. I was making $22 when I quit. 

While learning the trade, place 50% of your focus on learning how to run a business, how to manage people. And start building client relationships with the right clients. The ones who dont see much of a difference between 10k and 15k.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

I actually have quite a bit of experience in operating a business. And maybe that's the problem lol. It seems like when I'm asked by my bosses how they can more accurately apply traditional business principles to their company they regard my input with the same plausibility as rebranding the company to an aerospace firm. 

Maybe they're right though. Idk. Maybe the construction industry isn't ready for such revolutionary concepts as
• meticulous record keeping 
• fierce inventory control 
• accurate and inflexible prices (I don't understand how once you've accurately determined ALL of your costs and factored in your markup there's any room for negotiation. Where would it ever end?) 
• CHANGE ORDERS (consistently) 
• detailed estimates/proposal AND contracts 
• back-charging 

Don't get me wrong the company I work for is well regarded and legitimate. They're organized (to an extent) but there seems to be an industry wide attitude of complacency. That once the fear of the lights getting turned off is gone its more important to try and maintain that than it is to aggressively pursue growth and profit. 
These are the things that make me very hesitant to ever venture out on my own. That my business practices (I just don't see how you can make any consistent money otherwise) would land me firmly on my own couch waiting to go bid the next project only to be told I'm too high or whatever.


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## SeaMonster (Apr 13, 2009)

Google John Shearer. this is a young painter with a business brain.


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

GreenGuy said:


> Haven't been painting too terribly long but I've noticed some unsettling trends in my time in the bucket. I have a good job (given my experience) with typical painters hours. I make a good hourly rate ($15/hr which is very good for my area and having only about 16 months experience) now but as far as long term I'm uncertain how much I can realistically anticipate making.
> This isn't a hard numbers question. Rather it's a question of whether or not I'll be able to provide for my family and participate in the middle class American dream I assume we all want. Ten years from now am I really going to be making a rate that's commiserate with my experience and in line with national averages? I see guys every day in every other trade (non-union) with 20+ years experience. And I'd bet you dollars to donuts none of them are making twice what I do. Even the guys who own their own 'businesses' aren't making that much. And 'that much' isn't really all that much considering they have 15x the experience I do. (15 times!!!)


I think about the same thing all the time. The national average for painters is around $17.00 so you arent too far off given your experience. I own my own business (3.5 years on my own now) in a wealthy part of the country and still find it hard to pay my guys any more than 20-25+ an hour with payroll tax, WC, benefits,etc. In CT, $20.00 an hr is close to the poverty line given the high cost of living. I make a respectable living from this trade but work my azz off (especially this time of year) in order to do so. I'm lucky and thankful my wife has great benefits. Otherwise it would be so much harder. 
There's a lot of competition in this trade, and sometimes its cut throat. People are willing to work for food it seems. The only way to "make a good living" from painting is to start your own business, or become union. Other than pursuing union, my advice to is to learn all you can on the business end of it, read more about the business end of it, find side work if your hungry enough, and save up to start your own thing one day. That's what this country is suppose to be all about isn't it?


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Maybe they're right though. Idk. Maybe the construction industry isn't ready for such revolutionary concepts as
• meticulous record keeping
• fierce inventory control
• accurate and inflexible prices (I don't understand how once you've accurately determined ALL of your costs and factored in your markup there's any room for negotiation. Where would it ever end?)
• CHANGE ORDERS (consistently)
• detailed estimates/proposal AND contracts
• back-charging

That's SOP if your running a business. At least a profitable one.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

MKap said:


> I think about the same thing all the time. The national average for painters is around $17.00 so you arent too far off given your experience. I own my own business (3.5 years on my own now) in a wealthy part of the country and still find it hard to pay my guys any more than 20-25+ an hour with payroll tax, WC, benefits,etc. In CT, $20.00 an hr is close to the poverty line given the high cost of living. I make a respectable living from this trade but work my azz off (especially this time of year) in order to do so. I'm lucky and thankful my wife has great benefits. Otherwise it would be so much harder.
> There's a lot of competition in this trade, and sometimes its cut throat. People are willing to work for food it seems. The only way to "make a good living" from painting is to start your own business, or become union. Other than pursuing union, my advice to is to learn all you can on the business end of it, read more about the business end of it, find side work if your hungry enough, and save up to start your own thing one day. That's what this country is suppose to be all about isn't it?


Oh to have a wife with benefits and then a pension plan now that's a keeper... There are more painters here than houses to paint. Average pay for a painter in my state 20 yrs ago was $17.00 dollars an hour. You would be hard pressed to get that now. Like lots of things in life it's all about contacts get the right ones and market your ass off and anything is possible. Steve Burnet seems to be killing it and few others here as well. Google them or PM them ask for advice scope out PDCA there's tons of great books a few I've posted here. Here is a great one .


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

I use to worry about the longevity of our industry as well. However, doing so is somewhat of a losers mentality. ALL industries face fears of what the future holds. I stick to the old adage that if your doing what you enjoy and work hard to perfect your craft then you will find success. 

The real question is do you enjoy painting enough to make it work no matter what? If your happiness comes in the form of money then you may have the wrong profession. Im not saying that you won't be able to make a living painting, What I'm trying to say is that money shouldn't be your driving force in deciding your career.

Also, you CAN make a very good living painting, if you so choose.


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

It is possible to make some real money in the painting business, but if making money is your primary concern in life then you should consider doing something else.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Carl said:


> It is possible to make some real money in the painting business, but if making money is your primary concern in life then you should consider doing something else.


 This sentiment about making money seems to almost be viewed as a bad thing. My primary goal in life certainly is not to make money. I have goals and dreams like everyone else. But my primary concern in working IS to make money. I'm not asking for you all to tell me 'oh yeah bro 10 more years you'll be raking it in.' What I'm trying to discern is just how much stability is there in painting. That's really what I care about. Stability and growth. I want to afford the luxuries of buying my wife nicer anniversary gifts. I want to be able to give my son the same kind of childhood I had. If not better. I want to be able to finance things now knowing that today's rates compared to my future earnings will be constantly benefiting me rather than locking me in stasis. I want to know if soaring health care costs are something I can mitigate out of pocket if necessity dictates. 
I don't think my wants are reflective of greed or consumerism. I think they're pretty normal and fair really. But those things only exist with stability. And I guess that's my real concern as far as my future


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## MIZZOU (Nov 18, 2012)

GreenGuy said:


> This sentiment about making money seems to almost be viewed as a bad thing. My primary goal in life certainly is not to make money. I have goals and dreams like everyone else. But my primary concern in working IS to make money. I'm not asking for you all to tell me 'oh yeah bro 10 more years you'll be raking it in.' What I'm trying to discern is just how much stability is there in painting. That's really what I care about. Stability and growth. I want to afford the luxuries of buying my wife nicer anniversary gifts. I want to be able to give my son the same kind of childhood I had. If not better. I want to be able to finance things now knowing that today's rates compared to my future earnings will be constantly benefiting me rather than locking me in stasis. I want to know if soaring health care costs are something I can mitigate out of pocket if necessity dictates.
> I don't think my wants are reflective of greed or consumerism. I think they're pretty normal and fair really. But those things only exist with stability. And I guess that's my real concern as far as my future


Like I said bud, there are uncertainties in every profession. For every doomsday scenario someone will tell you about the future of painting there will be successful people that will tell you the future of painting looks just fine. 

There are lots of good threads on the future of our industry here. My view on future projections is that there is an increasing number of educated, over weight people with an inability to work with their hands. It seems like our society has changed to actually frown upon going into a field with physical labor. this being said I believe there will be a strong demand for hand working, hands on jobs like painting. My opinion is the future looks just fine. We just went through the worst economy collapse since the great depression and were busier then ever. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

Don't waste time. Get out there and hit the street. Hang door hangers, hand out business cards,online marketing, do quality work... If you do quality work the referrals will flow in. Save your money for slow months. Also don't worry about hiring anyone until you have enough work, do the projects yourself.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

GreenGuy said:


> This sentiment about making money seems to almost be viewed as a bad thing. My primary goal in life certainly is not to make money. I have goals and dreams like everyone else. But my primary concern in working IS to make money. I'm not asking for you all to tell me 'oh yeah bro 10 more years you'll be raking it in.' What I'm trying to discern is just how much stability is there in painting. That's really what I care about. Stability and growth. I want to afford the luxuries of buying my wife nicer anniversary gifts. I want to be able to give my son the same kind of childhood I had. If not better. I want to be able to finance things now knowing that today's rates compared to my future earnings will be constantly benefiting me rather than locking me in stasis. I want to know if soaring health care costs are something I can mitigate out of pocket if necessity dictates.
> I don't think my wants are reflective of greed or consumerism. I think they're pretty normal and fair really. But those things only exist with stability. And I guess that's my real concern as far as my future


My theory is, when you're young, working for Alphabet Painting has it's merits. And there are plenty of Alphabet Painting companies out there. Once you've convinced the AP's owner that you are a hard worker willing to listen, learn, and follow [also known as humility] you will become an asset that they'll want to keep around. The monies won't be all that great during this time, so if you're inclined to have a spouse or girlfriend, it would help that she supplements the inconsistencies of Alphabet Painting Co. with a job of their own that provides a decent income with benefits. Before you know it, you will qualify for loans and credit that'll enable you to purchase cars, a home, and other goodies.

Seven years later, you're going to have accumulated a lot of experience with more responsibility and a significant pay increase attached with Alphabet Painting, or you will feel you have reached a dead end. If you haven't over extended yourself financially by that time, you will be inclined to search for employment elsewhere, or start your own Alphabet Painting company. This is where your career decision becomes crucial.

If you also have a child, this may mean wanting your spouse to stay home with them. This will also mean losing a significant portion of your house hold income. Starting an Alphabet Painting company at this time could prove daunting, even given ones work ethic, painting experience, and innate understanding of business management, web design, and marketing strategies. It is at this point that you will discover if you are painting because you love it so much, or you are still in this trade because of necessity, as any job is for most people.

There are still good options for career painters that don't require starting an Alphabet Painting company. And they include, government agencies, utilities, large and established industrial and commercial paint companies that provide solid wages and work, along with technical positions such as consulting, estimating, and inspecting.


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## andy1015 (Apr 28, 2011)

*This is a question i ask myself every day...*

Where I live...the market is flooded with painters. I had a few pals that did ok working for the union, but that work has gone away. The other fellas i know that are making it..own their own company, and have financial backing from somewhere. Many supplement, or get most of their income, by selling loads of herb. Being a grunt in this industry is a hard life....low pay and no benefits it seems. Maybe a job with a municipality would allow for some stability and health insurance....All that being said, I know plenty of folks in other industries that are struggling. Upside down mortgages, mountains of medical bills, and living in mom's basement is all too common these days.


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## READY TO ROLL (Dec 12, 2011)

From what I read here on paint talk, it seems that painters on the east coast are doing alot better then west coast painters. If anybody want's to start a painting business out in california you better have the wife bringing in an income. You won't make enough money otherwise. It's just flooded out here with "Painters". And everybody who want's there house painted want's the lowest price. There's guys out here advertising to paint exterior two story houses for $1,200.00 and cheaper, paint included. On the other hand, there are plenty of established painting companies making money.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I know one path to the middle class by using the tools. Get a book . Work union. Other than that, put the tools down. Be a businessman and use the painting trade as your medium. And you ought take into account your geographical location as to which route you ought take. Tthe former, in my area, with my work ethic has given me access to the middle class. The latter, for some people I've known with the talent for business and that kind of a work ethic has afforded them quite a bit more than a middle class lifestyle.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I've always felt that if your heart is in making money, the trades ain't for you.

If your heart is in what you are doing, then a comfortable life can be earned. 

Different people have different interpretations of the American dream, success, luxury, etc.

and with the spiraling health costs, cost of utilities, cost of energy, cost of communication services, cost of education, etc, it's hard for me to imagine how any tradesperson can maintain a "better lifestyle" on a single income with a home and a few kids.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

andy1015 said:


> Where I live...the market is flooded with painters. I had a few pals that did ok working for the union, but that work has gone away. The other fellas i know that are making it..own their own company, and have financial backing from somewhere. Many supplement, or get most of their income, by selling loads of herb. Being a grunt in this industry is a hard life....low pay and no benefits it seems. Maybe a job with a municipality would allow for some stability and health insurance....All that being said, I know plenty of folks in other industries that are struggling. Upside down mortgages, mountains of medical bills, and living in mom's basement is all too common these days.


What area of the country,if you don't mind me asking?


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

the path to middle class is closing a rapid pace, and will be extinct before we know it, so no painting is not your answerer!! run forest run


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> the path to middle class is closing a rapid pace, and will be extinct before we know it, so no painting is not your answerer!! run forest run


What is the "Middle Class"?

Is it owning a 3,000 square foot home with his and hers BMW and Cadillac Escalade in the drive way? Or is the middle class simply owning a 1,500 square foot home with an eight year old F150 and Honda Civic, not only parked in the drive way, but bought and paid for?

I don't think the government is as responsible for the disparity between the rich and the poor, and the troubled middle class, as many would like us to believe. I believe the responsibility lies with a culture of indulgence, enabled by loose lending practices, and advertised as 'since we are all created equal, why shouldn't we demonstrate our "wealth" equally'! The next thing you know, you have lawn mower men, with Cadillac Escalades, allowing their homes to slip into foreclosure, along with the subsequent collapse of an economic cornerstone, namely the housing market.

Wealth is an awesome experience. That's why I enjoy the opportunity to rent it on occasion. However, my humble working class existence provides the most comfort and stability.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I agree CA. This culture of entitlement is ridiculous. It's the first thing we screen for when interviewing. If the world owes them anything, we cannot help. You get what you earn.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I agree CA. This culture of entitlement is ridiculous. It's the first thing we screen for when interviewing. If the world owes them anything, we cannot help. You get what you earn.


If you're implying credit checks for employment purposes, I'm in total agreement with you. I believe credit and financial history is as important as ones work history. It can be a good measure of an applicants integrity and work ethic. Particularly, if you are hiring someone of an age that has had the opportunity to demonstrate that responsibility.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I agree CA. This culture of entitlement is ridiculous. It's the first thing we screen for when interviewing. If the world owes them anything, we cannot help. You get what you earn.


Scott what type of questions do you use to screen for entitlement attitude, that is great.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> Scott what type of questions do you use to screen for entitlement attitude, that is great.


Dave

Labor Laws vary by state. So, we consulted our attorney to assist with putting together questions that we can legally ask here in our state to gather the info we need about candidates without violating their privacy or the law. 

We don't do credit checks, that is a bit intrusive in my opinion. The questions are surprisingly basic. It is more like psychology than science.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

CApainter said:


> What is the "Middle Class"?
> 
> Is it owning a 3,000 square foot home with his and hers BMW and Cadillac Escalade in the drive way? Or is the middle class simply owning a 1,500 square foot home with an eight year old F150 and Honda Civic, not only parked in the drive way, but bought and paid for?
> 
> ...


Ca I agree with most of your post, however I just don't think the oppurtunites are as many as their were many years ago. 50 years ago you could work a min wage job own a house and support a family, not now.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dave Mac said:


> Ca I agree with most of your post, however I just don't think the oppurtunites are as many as their were many years ago. 50 years ago you could work a min wage job own a house and support a family, not now.


At the risk of not wanting to go political in the discussion, I agree, Dave...not likely on minimum wage. 

I think the bigger problem is that paint contractors who actually create real employment opportunities are very much in the minority. As you can see from the advice in this thread alone, most guys will advise the op that the only way to make "real" money in painting is to go out on your own. 

Over the years, I have had several guys leave our company to go out on their own. Success rates are not always very good on that move. 

It is a vicious cycle...paint contractors don't want to employ, train, manage and create career opportunities, and candidates don't believe they should have to work their way up through the ranks. Somewhere in the middle lies reality.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I also think the bar for "middle class" has been raised.

Back in like 1960, a "middle class" family was content, nay ecstatic, with a falcon, rambler, VW, or other car under $2,000. And many families had only one. Those cars had manual windows, AM radio was an option, no AC, and lacked so many other of today's "necessities" . 

2,000 s.f houses were NOT middle class, nor were two car garages, if they had ANY garage. 

Middle class families did NOT have people coming in to clean the house nor did they drop children off at day care. 

Color TV ? Only for the rich, and many times not even one B&W in the living room.

One telephone per family. ("Number please" "Yes, operator, connect me to Dedham 3 4292) 

Those of us who feel we are middle class and grew up in the middle class, look around and note what you have that only the rich folks would have had back when you were growing up. 

Who had central AC in your childhood home? Hell, we barely had fans for every room and we were considered "upper" middle class. 

Who grew up partaking in hobbies like skiiing, off road motor sports, motor cycles, boating? Who now has a swimming pool? These were not typical middle class activities or possessions in 1960. 

The relative cost of satisfied contentment was much lower then.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

vermontpainter said:


> At the risk of not wanting to go political in the discussion, I agree, Dave...not likely on minimum wage.
> 
> I think the bigger problem is that paint contractors who actually create real employment opportunities are very much in the minority. As you can see from the advice in this thread alone, most guys will advise the op that the only way to make "real" money in painting is to go out on your own.
> 
> ...


I've said it before and ill say it again allot depends on your location and market. If your working area is flooded with painting contractors what's your chances of winning a job? Whether its public or private work allot depends on who's bidding how many. Etc etc. I'm at an age ( my bday today and in working brush and roller in hand along with crew) where my concern is will I be able to put the brush down and actually retire. I mean lets be realistic , here painters are making less and jobs are going for 20 years ago pricing. Sure there are those like myself who have all the licenses, insurances, marketing plan, accounting and numbers experience and biggest have a clue how to estimate but its still a struggle to make any real money.

I'm sorry it was much better years past I was very fortunate to have local PDCA chapter that was great. Very similar to what we do here only in person and local. Nothing like sharing with your peers to gain knowledge and learn how to run a better business. Without sounding to political this country needs some serious help at least where I live and work. Thats all ill say politically last time my post dissaperred.

I m so sick of all these painters I run into telling me there booked or so busy yet when I bid against them I see there numbers and its pathetic what there working for. Yes they end up by the wayside but it still kills allot of good profitable work. For all those here who are making money flooded with work be grateful it can change in a heartbeat. It's easy to say how great things are when your flush with work .


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## dwbrooks (Oct 23, 2008)

I've often wondered the same thing in regard to the original posters question.

My conclusion based on my personal experience and talking with established contractors in my area is...yes it's possible to make good money doing this but its certainly not the easiest way to make a living.

I've made a low six figure income running 5 guys but at the expense of my sanity. I'm sure if implemented several changes the stress level could go down. That being said, I personally feel its an uphill battle in this industry. 

I've talked with former painting contractors that have gone to other industries and they have told me the differance is night in day. That finding good help is easier, business is less cut-throat etc.

I know some guys here love the industry and that's great. I'm doing it because the income is decent and my other options are slim given my lack of a college degree and I have not yet found another form of self employment to replace my current income. 

I hope this industry proves to be one that if you work hard, make smart business decisions and have integrity your business will be a success. So far I'm very unsure of this. The biggest limitation for me has been finding good help. This will always be difficult when pricing is so competitive. If you want good help, they need to make a good wage, which in my area is over $20. With the additional wage burden its hard to pay much more leaving little room for future raises let alone paid vacation or benefits. How do you find quality individuals who are barely scraping by? I'm not a low baller or even close, I have a very good reputation in my area, I present myself and the business well. With that said its still very hard to charge enough to make the numbers work if you want to provide a career for your employees.

The above are my experiences and I know many have had success here and enjoy the industry. I personally feel its tough.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

CApainter said:


> What is the "Middle Class"?
> 
> Is it owning a 3,000 square foot home with his and hers BMW and Cadillac Escalade in the drive way? Or is the middle class simply owning a 1,500 square foot home with an eight year old F150 and Honda Civic, not only parked in the drive way, but bought and paid for?
> 
> ...


 My ideas of middle class aren't about your houses square footage or the kind of cars one owns. They're about just buying a home in general. And having reliable vehicles that don't cause stress every time you turn the key. It's about the exact contrary to the 'expected entitlement' we're all sick of. 

I don't need all the trappings of consumerism to feel complete or successful. And I'm NOT suggesting that the painting industry will collapse any time soon. Or ever. I just want to know if our client base combined with the constant influx of new painters & painting companies is going to continue to fuel this race for the bottom trend. Maybe this has always been an issue and Im just too new to have perspective. My worries about the future aren't whether there will be enough work. It's whether the consumers sense of value begin to rise on a level equal to our rising product and production costs. If not equal then at least more aggressively than the current trend of pitting us all against each other. 

This forum is wonderful for many reasons but one of my major benefits is the solidarity it encourages among us. Our greatest strength is each other. I gain A LOT of confidence from reading this forum. And I'm very thankful it exists and for all your helpful posts.


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

GreenGuy, I think it is a good sign that you are thinking about this so seriously. I get the impression that you are fairly young.

Here are some of my thoughts. I read somewhere once that in one's lifetime, you will switch jobs/careers at least seven times. When I attended my youngest daughter's college orientation, the speaker asked by a show of hands how many of the parents in the audience were actually working in the field they studied for. I was but one of a few that could raise their hand. What does that tell you?

I have three daughters. Two are working in their chosen field. The one that makes six figures cannot afford to buy a house on her own, and she is not one to be reckless with money.One still rents, and one is about to lose her house. I would consider all three to be middle class. They all have masters degrees.

However, I think middle class has changed. When public schools are scary and private schools are out of reach, when it takes two incomes to get by,and forget about private college. And man, are you in trouble when something unexpected happens. My brothers truck blew up the other day. It cost him a new job and he doesn't have the means to buy another car. He owns his own home and up until 4 years ago, had a great job. cutbacks, being over 50 years of age....What are you gonna' do? I would consider him the new middle class.

From my perspective, if you don't mind some semi-motherly advice: Don't put your eggs all in one basket. Branch out and develop another skill, something unrelated to paint. It would be good to have something else in case things go awry. I made the best money was I was juggling three non-related jobs. When one was on the downswing, the other made up for it. You never know when life will throw you a curve.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

By the way, for those that have asked or are curious, I am 35 and live in south central IN. About 50 miles south of Indianapolis. Construction here is geared mainly towards meeting the universities growth. Unfortunately unions (while very strong in the state) are particularly soft in my city. Most trades locals are about 50-100 miles away. 

Most large scale construction work is contracted to larger companies out of Indianapolis and prevailing wage is king with university work. This is a good and a bad thing. Good in the amount of income one has the potential to earn working on these jobs but bad in that the smaller scale companies (like the one i work for) of any trade can't realistically 'afford' to front all those labor dollars while waiting for 30+ day pay. It really keeps a stranglehold on smaller business growth. This isn't always the case as we've worked quite a bit for the university but always on smaller scale projects. Of which there are not that many. 

As far as the painters union goes from what I understand you will be kept busy for your apprenticeship then starve afterward. Supposedly builders are very reluctant to use union painters (especially journeymen) as using non-union is one guaranteed way to keep the bid price low. Maybe this isn't always the case but I've worked on plenty of jobs where everyone there was union except us. And none of those guys batted an eye. 
........or ever cleaned up any of there bull**** at the end of the day. Overspray quickly became a free addition to their tools.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

I find it odd....so many of you say money is not what drives you to do this.....
I obviously have other reasons..but money is definetley one of the top reasons im in painting....I think you can make great money....and im not even getting anything close to top dollar.....


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Green G.

Besides monetary possibilities of this business, I would also suggest to consider the physical toll this industry takes on your body. You're 35 and hopefully you feel invincible, I know I did at your age.

Take a look at the Old People's Pains Update thread to get a glimpse of what some of us are experiencing. 

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy being a sole proprietor paper hanger, but I am also looking forward to retirement, strictly from a physical point of view.

There is also quite a bit of stress being owner of a trade business - either as a solo or of a crew. 

I wouldn't trade my vocation for a cubicle in the rat race, but since you asked about this industry for the long haul, be sure you understand the possible physical and mental impact it can have over the years.


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

God man don't get me started on the physical and mental impact. That's really the root of a lot of this. I'm sure we all work hard and money is just the actualization of our labor. But the long term costs....the physical toll, the exposure to god only knows what in the fu3k is in most of this stuff we use. Or that its long term effects on the body....and mind haven't begun to be understood :/ 

These things I have to consciously not think about. I take a lot of precautions. More than anyone else I work with. Or have ever worked with. I do some dumb things in retrospect but when it comes to safety I really, really put a premium on my own. And my families. I absolutely refuse to work on any lead jobs and am completely inflexible on the matter. Industrial coatings, god that sh1t is 100% poison. And we all know it. We know it intimately. I worry if 'success' in this field for me will have to involve a lot of those types of jobs. Spraying these ground & liquified metals and barely-stable chemicals all over the freaking place. And to know that what lies on the otherside of that fog of cancer is a couple of thousand bucks.....And most likely I'll end up having to wrench it free from some greedy pr1ck GC's hand........I don't know guys. I really don't know. 

BUT doing just like residential repaints would be pretty sweet I think.


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

I have found I make more money as a one man operation than running a traditional crew, and way fewer headaches. Any crew is only as good as the weakest link. I have one link. Clients have high expectations and I don't let them down. That is the key to future work and referrals. Getting rich? No. But everyone has their own version of what rich is. I have rental property, have no debt, retirement is funded 100% (if we don't live past 80) I have a 15 year old Porsche I drive on the weekends, and my dogs go to the vet when needed. But I am also 53 so I have been at it a while. Wife works white collar job in marketing, so that helps as well.


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## dwbrooks (Oct 23, 2008)

richmondpainting said:


> I find it odd....so many of you say money is not what drives you to do this.....
> I obviously have other reasons..but money is definetley one of the top reasons im in painting....I think you can make great money....and im not even getting anything close to top dollar.....


I do it for the money. I certainly don't find painting very mentally stimulating. It's not the worst job but not my passion either.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm not talking about the exposure to safety risks - be they chemical, fumes, or falls, I'm talking about the day to day beating the body takes. 

Shoulders, wrists, knees, elbows, fingers, necks, etc were not designed to do this work for thirty to forty years


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I've had this discussion a bunch of times and tend to offend a bit with my version of trades reality. A one crew company can never make real money. I read all the defenses of low overhead and such, but the physical time constraints and limited growth of an owner operated company will cripple making above a mediocre income. I know we all have our own definitions of 'real money' and desired lifestyle. That plays a big part and CA addressed it well. 

I guess the only way to look at income potential is with real world dollars and then you can decide if that meets the criteria of a sufficient salary. I know some owner/operator companies that are doing very well. Owner's income is probably around $65K. You can't do much with that where I live unless you have a wife that doubles that household income. I live conservatively but have a special needs niece that will not be able to attend the public high school. The school that fits her needs perfectly costs $40K per year. My two kids are in private school at another $18,000 per year each and my annual property taxes are $7K. That's a vicious chunk before any living expenses are added. Add in mortgage, lease payments, etc. Ouch. 

If you want to make money in trades, you need multiple crews working to a metronome of systematic procedure. That means you have guys that know their jobs, you have efficient estimating/selling process, you charge top of market pricing, your office and paperwork are organized, and you have a strong reputation and marketing machine that keeps leads rolling in. It can be done, but by very few people that get into the trades. That's not meant to be offensive. 

If a new guy were starting out I would say to them.. 
- Keep the day job (or marry a woman willing to put up with you making no money the first few years)
- Price high and perform to the best of your ability
- Reinvest profit into your marketing/advertising
- Live conservatively
- Invest your personal income
- Diversify your income generation (buy other businesses)

Good Luck!


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> I've had this discussion a bunch of times and tend to offend a bit with my version of trades reality. A one crew company can never make real money. I read all the defenses of low overhead and such, but the physical time constraints and limited growth of an owner operated company will cripple making above a mediocre income. I know we all have our own definitions of 'real money' and desired lifestyle. That plays a big part and CA addressed it well.
> 
> I guess the only way to look at income potential is with real world dollars and then you can decide if that meets the criteria of a sufficient salary. I know some owner/operator companies that are doing very well. Owner's income is probably around $65K. You can't do much with that where I live unless you have a wife that doubles that household income. I live conservatively but have a special needs niece that will not be able to attend the public high school. The school that fits her needs perfectly costs $40K per year. My two kids are in private school at another $18,000 per year each and my annual property taxes are $7K. That's a vicious chunk before any living expenses are added. Add in mortgage, lease payments, etc. Ouch.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have been said better.....


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

you right you couldn't of LOL:jester:


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I used to hang out with a guy who had a pretty nice size landscaping company an from the outside you'd think ''damn'' he's got his **** together an when you'd hang out with him he would always talk down about other ''bums'' an how he runs a tight ship etc etc but never would he openly talk about how his MOM an DAD let him use their lot and shop/yard with attached mechanic site free of charge after they retired from the stone hauling business nor did he ever mention how his MOM stayed on board with him to run the books/taxes nor did he mention how his DAD let him use his tri-axle trucks an bobcat/trailers when ever he need to ..nor did he mention how the majority of his work came from his DADs connections....forgot to mention a lot of things


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## paul carey (Feb 2, 2012)

you can make decent money from painting, but you need to be your own boss and learn how to build a business and manage the customer and employee. Having a spouse with an income and benefits really helps, especially when you start out on your own. 
Finding a mentor who has been down the road before you is key, learn from their life and business experience, problem is there are very few people around who either would be willing or have the time to help.
It is tough out there at the moment, but the American Dream is still open for business, it just takes a lot of work!!!!!!:thumbsup:


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## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

Too many guys on their own. Not enough career opportunities for us. In my area anyone with a CT home imp. lic. offers painting as one of their services.
Everyone seems to be just getting by.

The one only ones that are living the "American dream" are the folks who weren't born here and those who employ them.

United we stand, divided we fall.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

daArch said:


> I'm not talking about the exposure to safety risks - be they chemical, fumes, or falls, I'm talking about the day to day beating the body takes.
> 
> Shoulders, wrists, knees, elbows, fingers, necks, etc were not designed to do this work for thirty to forty years


I honestly don't see this trade beating up the body. I feel that this is a pretty relaxed trade compare to others. I mean if you were a heating and cooling guy, you would be picking up air conditioners & heaters all day long that weigh a ton. Or if you weren't an iron worker, welder, or carpenter etc... Then I could relate to a trade that beats up your body.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Mura, 

how old are you?

I thought this was a relatively easy occupation too, until the repetitive motions started having effect. Before the mid fifties, I was feeling quite good and pain free - except for back and knee pains.


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

I did do the big crew, big money thing when I lived in California. Decided not to go that way when I moved to Indianapolis in 2000. It is like the wild west here. No contractors license require for any trades other than plumbing and electric. Never seen so many bad paint jobs in my life. Instead of dropping my quality to the level of the others, I kept mine at my California levels, and it has paid benefits. High end clients who "get it" that painting is a learned trade, if done correctly, and not just a job you do until a better one comes along. A good website, blogging and well paced advertising all play a role. I keep booked up about two months into the future, and really don't even do exteriors any more. Have a plan and stick with it. You have to invest five years at least though to make it what you want it to be.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ole34 said:


> I used to hang out with a guy who had a pretty nice size landscaping company an from the outside you'd think ''damn'' he's got his **** together an when you'd hang out with him he would always talk down about other ''bums'' an how he runs a tight ship etc etc but never would he openly talk about how his MOM an DAD let him use their lot and shop/yard with attached mechanic site free of charge after they retired from the stone hauling business nor did he ever mention how his MOM stayed on board with him to run the books/taxes nor did he mention how his DAD let him use his tri-axle trucks an bobcat/trailers when ever he need to ..nor did he mention how the majority of his work came from his DADs connections....forgot to mention a lot of things


Ole, I think you nailed it - lots of 'successful' guys that are riding the coattails of their parents, wife, or something. If I was in his position - I'd do the exact same thing - I just wouldn't brag about it - or put other guys down.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

my business has thrived without all that boring office type work, and numbers.
i just look at a job, figure out how long itll take (by using realistic goals) go jam it out, make the customer happy, and move on to the next one.

im not out to grow my business,,,ive purposely kept it small.

all that office type stuff would be a drain, and i wouldve quit decades ago.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Like dudes who have to measure out a wall lol never paint a wall before?.. I know exactly how long it takes to paint stuff cause I've been painting the same stuff for years. Never understood why guys would willingly want to complicate their lives.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Why measure? As my business grows, I do not need to know how long it takes me to complete a job but how long will it take some combination of 14 employees of differening production rates. I know how thick I naturally apply Aura. My old boss puts it on even thinner. Some of my employees put it on thicker. I need average production rates for the team. Not production rates for me.

Figuring jobs based on how long it takes ME to paint has probably cost me more money than any other business mistake I have made. Including the builder that went bankrupt and cost me $25,000.

Without quantifying numbers, it is too easy to be abritrary. Estimate a difficult job by eye ball on a day when you are grumpy vs in a good mood. I bet you will come up with two different numbers. That is part of the reason I alway take pictures, measure at some stuff, and write up the estimate elsewhere.

I used to think that variances in employee pay was enough to offset the production differences. And $wise it does, but to manage the schedule properly I need to have average production rates for the crew as a whole.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i am their production rate. 

by setting REALISTIC goals during the estimating process, i work towards those daily.

i never fail.

i never fail at them, because they are realistic goals. anything else is gravy (aka money in my pocket)

i understand thats not applicable for everyone,,,especially if you are running multiple crews,,,(although with strong leadership it could be)

this is one of the reasons i strive to stay small.

you can do less and make more, if its run right.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

my hat goes off the the brainy guys that are into numbers,,,but i would advise any newbies that are out there, and not of this mindset, that it doesnt have to be done that way.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

What's the average number of employees for a painting company in the United States?


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

Greg Mrakich said:


> I did do the big crew, big money thing when I lived in California. Decided not to go that way when I moved to Indianapolis in 2000. It is like the wild west here. No contractors license require for any trades other than plumbing and electric. Never seen so many bad paint jobs in my life. Instead of dropping my quality to the level of the others, I kept mine at my California levels, and it has paid benefits. High end clients who "get it" that painting is a learned trade, if done correctly, and not just a job you do until a better one comes along. A good website, blogging and well paced advertising all play a role. I keep booked up about two months into the future, and really don't even do exteriors any more. Have a plan and stick with it. You have to invest five years at least though to make it what you want it to be.


I live about an hour from downtown Indy lol


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

i try and focus on exteriors nowdays. (dont get me wrong,,,ive done tons of interior work, new construction etc)

i just like exteriors.

i like that you can take your biz in any direction you please.

its turned into more property management for me also,,,which i really like at 50.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

MuraCoat said:


> I honestly don't see this trade beating up the body. I feel that this is a pretty relaxed trade compare to others. I mean if you were a heating and cooling guy, you would be picking up air conditioners & heaters all day long that weigh a ton. Or if you weren't an iron worker, welder, or carpenter etc... Then I could relate to a trade that beats up your body.


Rotator cuff, carpel tunnel, neck, back, and knee issues - just some of the issues likely to crop up if you stay in the bucket long enough.


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> What's the average number of employees for a painting company in the United States?


Three too many.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

MuraCoat said:


> I honestly don't see this trade beating up the body. I feel that this is a pretty relaxed trade compare to others. I mean if you were a heating and cooling guy, you would be picking up air conditioners & heaters all day long that weigh a ton. Or if you weren't an iron worker, welder, or carpenter etc... Then I could relate to a trade that beats up your body.


ONG! What paper route you got I dunno. This trade is brutal on a body.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

cant see how the new guys are getting all banged up unless theyre pulling muscles taping off door knobs


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Repetitive motion injuries.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

thats what the young ones are for.

if you hire the right ones, theyll never even let you pick up a five, set an extension ladder, or climb on a roof.

ive got two fellas that refer to themselves as L-4 and L-5 (yes the vertebrae)


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

if they dont snatch up that five off my tailgate,,,,id be looking for a replacement.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Repetitive motion injuries.


especially the painter's favorite:


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> What's the average number of employees for a painting company in the United States?


I'd have to estimate that its the number of painters who start a company and think they know how to run a business, multiplied by the number of years before they eventually go out of business divided by pi. 

Seriously though it's probably around 3-5?


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

high fibre said:


> i try and focus on exteriors nowdays. (dont get me wrong,,,ive done tons of interior work, new construction etc)
> 
> i just like exteriors.
> 
> ...


Condos? Or residential customers that call you every season for a different job?


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

During the housing boom in California I was making 23 an hour as a production painter for a home builder. working as much as I wanted. So yeah you can make a decent living at it. You aren't going to get rich at it unless you start you own biz and get a couple of good guys pullin some weight for you.

I work for myself now and make about 32 an hour but I am workin less, payin more, but still enjoying it much more on my own terms.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Lazerline said:


> During the housing boom in California I was making 23 an hour as a production painter for a home builder. working as much as I wanted. So yeah you can make a decent living at it. You aren't going to get rich at it unless you start you own biz and get a couple of good guys pullin some weight for you.
> 
> I work for myself now and make about 32 an hour but I am workin less, payin more, but still enjoying it much more on my own terms.


WOW, one could barely survive on that in this part of MA, with a home, kids, and all the trappings, unless the spousal partner brings in another 50 - 60 K. 

(I am assuming you work solo and not making some money off of a crew)

BTW, if you charge 32/hour, have you figured how much you are actually "taking home" after all your business related expenses and time ? If I were charging that as a solo, I would be realistically bringing home about 20/hour.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Is a career in painting even realistic?

Yes, it can happen to you. Just say no.


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

daArch said:


> WOW, one could barely survive on that in this part of MA, with a home, kids, and all the trappings, unless the spousal partner brings in another 50 - 60 K.
> 
> (I am assuming you work solo and not making some money off of a crew)
> 
> BTW, if you charge 32/hour, have you figured how much you are actually "taking home" after all your business related expenses and time ? If I were charging that as a solo, I would be realistically bringing home about 20/hour.


Make about 32 an hour not charge. My hourly rate seems to vary per job but I always seem to average that in take home. Like I said I ain't gettin rich.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ole34 said:


> cant see how the new guys are getting all banged up unless theyre pulling muscles taping off door knobs


 And there's my daily chuckle. Thanks PT. :thumbsup:


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

Oden said:


> ONG! What paper route you got I dunno. This trade is brutal on a body.


I guess you are right... This guy, after painting walls, was rushed to the hospital...

Check it out!


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

HouseOfColor said:


> Is a career in painting even realistic?
> 
> Yes, it can happen to you. Just say no.


Say no to being a doctor, lawyer, dentist, gynecologist. NO, NO, NO!
I want to be a painter and paint from spring to fall, then collect unemployment during the winter, with no benefits 'year in' and 'year out'... Yay - I made a great career move!!! :blink:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

MuraCoat said:


> I honestly don't see this trade beating up the body. I feel that this is a pretty relaxed trade compare to others. I mean if you were a heating and cooling guy, you would be picking up air conditioners & heaters all day long that weigh a ton. Or if you weren't an iron worker, welder, or carpenter etc... Then I could relate to a trade that beats up your body.


 Mura, like DaArch I'm curious about your age. 
I'm guessing you're behrly 40. ???? :whistling2:


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

I would think you guys would see it coming and prepare to not work in the field....isnt that what this is a businiess? Sounds like alot of guys bought them selves a job and not a company....when I first started thats what I was told....get in...make your money and the second you can warrant not doing the painting...step back and let the employees make you money....im not the biggest or best...but im down to only wearing whites once or twice a week and some times that doesnt even make sense....all I need is some stable advertising money year round and for the commercial to stay steady and im done working.....my goal is to be 100% done on the labor side by 35 and im way ahead of pace now.....


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Lazerline said:


> Make about 32 an hour not charge. My hourly rate seems to vary per job but I always seem to average that in take home. Like I said I ain't gettin rich.


32/hr take home after all overhead for every hour you spend on your business is livable. As you said, you ain't getting rich, but nothing the matter with living a comfortable if modest life :thumbup:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

MuraCoat said:


> I guess you are right... This guy, after painting walls, was rushed to the hospital...
> 
> Check it out!
> 
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hswJQ3JJvKs


Wasn't there just a thread about paint and hammer hiring a guy who rolled the top than the bottom. Well this guy blows him out of the water with three stages per wall. I wonder what his production rates are!


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

RH said:


> Rotator cuff, carpel tunnel, neck, back, and knee issues - just some of the issues likely to crop up if you stay in the bucket long enough.


It's called, "old age creeping up". If you breath air and drink water for enough years, it can cause cancer.

Here's a tough career for ya.


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## MuraCoat (Jan 26, 2013)

slinger58 said:


> Mura, like DaArch I'm curious about your age.
> I'm guessing you're behrly 40. ???? :whistling2:


51 y/o.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

MuraCoat said:


> It's called, "old age creeping up". If you breath air and drink water for enough years, it can cause cancer.
> 
> Here's a tough career for ya.


There is three men though... :whistling:


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## finish (Jan 13, 2010)

I often project myself to be painting when old, to retirement. Once a co-worker says to me, how many old painters do you know. I could not think of any in their 60's still in the bucket. 

Think it may be a bad career choice. Warren put it rigjt, I'll sleep when I'm dead


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

finish said:


> I often project myself to be painting when old, to retirement. Once a co-worker says to me, how many old painters do you know. I could not think of any in their 60's still in the bucket.
> 
> Think it may be a bad career choice. Warren put it rigjt, I'll sleep when I'm dead


I enjoy painting...I like it so much I started a business doing it and am making a life from it. I dont want to be in the bucket any longer than I have to be. Try to project yourself not being in the bucket but rather handing buckets out to your employees and collecting a portion of your 401k each time you finish a job and get the final payment. That's the only way I can think of living past 55, and not in poverty doing this type of work.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Lazerline said:


> During the housing boom in California I was making 23 an hour as a production painter for a home builder. working as much as I wanted. So yeah you can make a decent living at it. You aren't going to get rich at it unless you start you own biz and get a couple of good guys pullin some weight for you.
> 
> I work for myself now and make about 32 an hour but I am workin less, payin more, but still enjoying it much more on my own terms.


$32 dollars an hr??? Really 20 yrs ago a good friend of mine who I met a PDCA convention was charging $35-38 an hr in his part of Cali. It's 2013 and that's your hourly rate. You must be subbing from a home builder or GC. I mean right off the top with self employment tax your down to $20 an hr. then if you work alone you have only yourself to cover your OH. Hey if your happy more power to ya.


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## Greg Mrakich (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm 53 and have been diabetic for 40 years. The work out I get everyday has kept me healthy. But the last year, due to lots of work, has been hard. So I have gone to three weeks on, one week off when possible. Still going....


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> $32 dollars an hr??? Really 20 yrs ago a good friend of mine who I met a PDCA convention was charging $35-38 an hr in his part of Cali. It's 2013 and that's your hourly rate. You must be subbing from a home builder or GC. I mean right off the top with self employment tax your down to $20 an hr. then if you work alone you have only yourself to cover your OH. Hey if your happy more power to ya.


He said above that's his average take home after expenses and taxes


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> $32 dollars an hr??? Really 20 yrs ago a good friend of mine who I met a PDCA convention was charging $35-38 an hr in his part of Cali. It's 2013 and that's your hourly rate. You must be subbing from a home builder or GC. I mean right off the top with self employment tax your down to $20 an hr. then if you work alone you have only yourself to cover your OH. Hey if your happy more power to ya.


Self-employment tax is 7.65% more than FICA, it's the equivalent of paying the half of FICA that an employer pays. For someone making $35/hr, that amounts to paying $2.68 more in tax than someone who is working as an employee, meaning that it's the equivalent of making $32.32/hr as an employee. In addition, the SE tax is on net earning, so business expenses are deducted before the tax is calculated. To further lessen the impact, that 7.65% (half of the SE tax) is also deducted from gross income. If you're self-employed, you can also deduct all of your health insurance premiums.

There are advantages and disadvantages to either situation, but it doesn't help to overstate the case.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Gough said:


> Self-employment tax is 7.65% more than FICA, it's the equivalent of paying the half of FICA that an employer pays. For someone making $35/hr, that amounts to paying $2.68 more in tax than someone who is working as an employee, meaning that it's the equivalent of making $32.32/hr as an employee. In addition, the SE tax is on net earning, so business expenses are deducted before the tax is calculated. To further lessen the impact, that 7.65% (half of the SE tax) is also deducted from gross income. If you're self-employed, you can also deduct all of your health insurance premiums.
> 
> There are advantages and disadvantages to either situation, but it doesn't help to overstate the case.


Really well wish you were my accountant as a sole prop you pay a lot more than that on your gross after expenses . If you bill out at 35 dollars and hr including your OH both indirect and direct there's no way your making close to that. I'm not overstating anything. $32 dollars an hour in 2013 is not good money unless its net after all is done. At least where I pay my bills. And I must have read his post wrong cause I thought he said that's what he charges as his rate not after expenses. As for health insurance my family plan is almost $2000 a month and it doesn't work out to a great deduction about $2000 all said and done nothing to write home about.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Really well wish you were my accountant as a sole prop you pay a lot more than that on your gross after expenses . If you bill out at 35 dollars and hr including your OH both indirect and direct there's no way your making close to that. I'm not overstating anything. $32 dollars an hour in 2013 is not good money unless its net after all is done. At least where I pay my bills. And I must have read his post wrong cause I thought he said that's what he charges as his rate not after expenses. As for health insurance my family plan is almost $2000 a month and it doesn't work out to a great deduction about $2000 all said and done nothing to write home about.


$2,000!....gulp:blink:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I doubt there are very few here who make $32.00 an hour when you divide the hours you spend _thinking_ about paint by the paychecks:blink:


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

CApainter said:


> $2,000!....gulp:blink:


That's what I was thinking! Might as well not have insurance! And pay as you go... Unless there are some health problems we don't know about


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

CApainter said:


> $2,000!....gulp:blink:


Oh so glad the wife has awesome benefits.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Glad I got out. my wage decrease was actually an increase


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## TrueColors (Jul 30, 2010)

I get taxed 30% of my income. It blows serious chunks.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> Glad I got out. my wage decrease was actually an increase


TJ, what's the scoop?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Glad I got out. my wage decrease was actually an increase


Damn weekend warrior.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Really well wish you were my accountant as a sole prop you pay a lot more than that on your gross after expenses . If you bill out at 35 dollars and hr including your OH both indirect and direct there's no way your making close to that. I'm not overstating anything. $32 dollars an hour in 2013 is not good money unless its net after all is done. At least where I pay my bills. And I must have read his post wrong cause I thought he said that's what he charges as his rate not after expenses. As for health insurance my family plan is almost $2000 a month and it doesn't work out to a great deduction about $2000 all said and done nothing to write home about.


I didn't mean to imply that that was all a sole proprietor would have in expenses. I was just pointing out that the SE tax portion is hardly the big deal that you made it out to be.

One of the biggest downsizes of SE tax is that it doesn't get withheld and can come as a big shock at tax time.

A $24,000/year deduction is "nothing to write home about"?? At the 25% tax rate, that's a savings of $6,000/year in taxes, or ~$3/hr.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Really well wish you were my accountant as a sole prop you pay a lot more than that on your gross after expenses . If you bill out at 35 dollars and hr including your OH both indirect and direct there's no way your making close to that. I'm not overstating anything. $32 dollars an hour in 2013 is not good money unless its net after all is done. At least where I pay my bills. And I must have read his post wrong cause I thought he said that's what he charges as his rate not after expenses. As for health insurance my family plan is almost $2000 a month and it doesn't work out to a great deduction about $2000 all said and done nothing to write home about.


.......


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## GreenGuy (Feb 14, 2013)

As far as the physical toll goes I feel certain aspects of it already. I'm a pretty fit guy; athletic, sports in highschool, etc so it isn't so much the carrying of ladders or setting up staging that gets to me. It's the weird, "unnatural" things we do all the time that just strain the hell out of the weakest points on the body. 

Working out of a cut pot, for example, puts a lot of strain on the hand holding it. As well as the wrist and, for me, the elbow especially. The elbow is strong in a lot of ways but constant tension on it really softens it up quickly. Just last night my wife woke me up because I was groaning and wincing in my sleep. Both my elbows (I cut and brush-in equally with both hands so obviusly i also hold the cut pot equally in each hand as well) were freaking killing me when I woke up. And it's not the first time. They felt like someone had jammed a thick knitting needle right through the center of each them. And on top of that that dull, piercing pain they also felt like there were balloons being inflated in them. 

Carrying ladders isn't too big a deal but manipulating them once they're raised is physically awkward for sure. So is all of the work we do above our heads so often. I'm pretty diligent about maintaining good posture when I roll but there are times when I'm in a position not unlike a contortionist wielding that roller around. 

I'm not trying to bellyache or anything. I'm just saying I can definitely see how this is a physically taxing profession.


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## READY TO ROLL (Dec 12, 2011)

finish said:


> I often project myself to be painting when old, to retirement. Once a co-worker says to me, how many old painters do you know. I could not think of any in their 60's still in the bucket.
> 
> Think it may be a bad career choice. Warren put it rigjt, I'll sleep when I'm dead


I know of lots of painters out here in Cali in there 60"s who are still "In the bucket", but there not out there busting there butts. They are mostly retired or "Semi retired" and do the small jobs for extra income and to keep busy. Lots of Handy Man guys in there 60"s as well. :thumbsup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

READY TO ROLL said:


> I know of lots of painters out here in Cali in there 60"s who are still "In the bucket", but there not out there busting there butts. They are mostly retired or "Semi retired" and do the small jobs for extra income and to keep busy. Lots of Handy Man guys in there 60"s as well. :thumbsup:


Jeez, 60-year old guys still painting? I can't even imagine what that would...wait, I think I can.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

My old boss's dad was in his 60's an I still couldn't beat him on trim ..... He used a flat 2"...... 10 min 8 over 8 with frame ..... Rest in peace Robert aka "old pull" ..... Pulling the job along


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> My old boss's dad was in his 60's an I still couldn't beat him on trim ..... He used a flat 2"...... 10 min 8 over 8 with frame ..... Rest in peace Robert aka "old pull" ..... Pulling the job along


That's cool, yet I'd rather be a better man than a better cutter-inner. So far I'm deficient in both pursuits, I'm afraid.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I can't Waite till you get fired an come back to painting full time so I don't have hear your weird "enlightened now that your not a painter" posts lol


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> I can't Waite till you get fired an come back to painting full time so I don't have hear your weird "enlightened now that your not a painter" posts lol


Well I might marry a girl who has a benefit package I could piggy back on. If so, I just might have to start painting fulltime again.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Weird thing is I'm twice as busy painting now that I quit. I thought I was stressed before...


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> $32 dollars an hr??? Really 20 yrs ago a good friend of mine who I met a PDCA convention was charging $35-38 an hr in his part of Cali. It's 2013 and that's your hourly rate. You must be subbing from a home builder or GC. I mean right off the top with self employment tax your down to $20 an hr. then if you work alone you have only yourself to cover your OH. Hey if your happy more power to ya.


Please refer to page four post# 72 for response again.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Lazerline said:


> Please refer to page four post# 72 for response again.


Why?


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## Paper & Popcorn Pro (Jun 14, 2013)

If you love painting and truly want to paint for a long portion of your life, than YES!! http://www.palmettobrush.com


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