# Advance over oil



## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I have used Advance on four projects and like it except I feel it should cover much better than it does....3 coats seems to be the norm. I have large house repaint coming up and it is oil trim work. I am not impressed with Aura's adhesion over oil so I am wondering how field experience has been with the Advance on oil....just worried about hybrid performance. The oil modified poly's over oil are not quite there yet.

Do I bite the bullet and transition coat or trust the datasheet...


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have yet to try it Jeff, but if you do use Advance please post your results.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Im curious too, as I have yet to try any of the new waterbourne alkyds. Im still waiting on the right trim job to come up, but when the situation does come olong I will pick up a gallon and try it at home first.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ROOMINADAY said:


> I have *large house repaint* coming up and it is oil trim work.
> 
> Do I bite the bullet and transition coat or trust the datasheet...


Do you have time to test the product? I wouldn't want to try something new and questionable on a large project that's for sure. :no:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I have tried Advance over previously painted with Oil base enamel, over BIN, Lacquer Undercoater and Stix sprayed and brushed and it doesn't more than 2 coats.( picture is one coat of green over white lacquer) and tomorrow I'm going to try it over XIM Prime Start.


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Gibberish45 said:


> Do you have time to test the product? I wouldn't want to try something new and questionable on a large project that's for sure. :no:


I can test it, but I won't be around for the full cure time to see if adheres well. All the trim is in great shape, just needs some TLC, as it has been 10 years since it was custom built. The painting was professional and pristine and all BM at the time. 

Everything I am painting is no different to what I have used it on before, just not over oil. There are about 50 risers and skirting, base, casing, and columns. And a pile of doors! We will TSPe all doors, casing, risers and skirting and scuff it all as well as the base.


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## bwpainting (Jun 1, 2011)

Advance bites the oil really good, especially if you prep by scuff sanding (u have also done a sample without sanding and was impressed with the bonding) but it runs like a mo fo my favorite mod alkyd is Porter Glyptex WB it doesn't run like advance does


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Check out my Advance thread below...I just used it over oil and would probably prime with Stix next time and top coat with a good acrylic...Speed is the main issue ..That stuff is sticky and slow compared to an acrylic...You also have to monitor drips/sags...It's pain in the azz compared to today's acrylic's relatively speaking...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Here is my little review of Advance on an interior job I am doing now.

Coverage: Seems good, but I am going over an oil finish of the identical color, so can't really say.

Brushability: Brushes out really nice, long pot life - and it has the most brushless appearance I have ever seen in an oil paint - even the 'real' oil paint has brushmarks these days i.e. Low Lustre satin impervo.

Clean-up: They aren't lying when they say it's a water and soap cleanup - and that's even after using your brush all day long.

Dry-time: dries extraordinarily fast for an oil paint.

Negatives: It is piss poor with the runs long after you brush an area, even if you brush something real thin - it runs. This is the one area B.M. has to work on if this product is to be viable. I haven't used satin impervo in a long time - but I remember that if you brushed it on, that it stayed put right where you left it.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am going to repaint the trim in my bathroom with Advance and will test it out. Will be going over satin imprevo oil.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

It very easy to do a adhesion test. I do it on my back door all the time. It painted with Vista Paint oil protec, I've testef primers, emulsions, and acrylics. Pisses the wife off cause we got a few lil test areas that adhered just fine. Just dab a lil on with your finger, let dry and scratch away.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm not surprised that it had sags/runs, because the stuff came out off the can very thin.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

StevenH said:


> I'm not surprised that it had sags/runs, because the stuff came out off the can very thin.


I don't understand the correlation between coming out of the can thin and having sags/runs. I use paint that is very thin out of the can and it doesn't sag/run at all once applied. I use paints that come out of the can thick like molasses and get runs everywhere. The 'runs' is something other than the viscosity of the paint.


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## BreatheEasyHP (Apr 24, 2011)

there's been posts along the way RE the difference between thickness/thinness, viscosity, and high sheer viscosity. search function away!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Its a new product that requires learning new methods of applications. Do you expect it to act and perform like a oil?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Its a new product that requires learning new methods of applications. Do you expect it to act and perform like a oil?


I've heard there is a learning curve.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Rep told me a new formula that is sag resistant should be hitting shelves soon. It does run if you over apply in the slightest. However finish quality is the best I have seen of any enamel on the market at this time.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Its a new product that requires learning new methods of applications. Do you expect it to act and perform like a oil?


It is an oil. The same confusion was had by the kid at the paintstore, just because they have figured out how to suspend an oil molecule in water vs. thinner doesn't mean it's any less of an oil paint. Heck - Latex wasn't natural to water either when it debuted. It was for many years being sold in thinner as well, until they figured out how to suspend a latex molecule in water. 

And yes it does act and perform like an oil minus the fumes and the disgusting brush clean up. If they can get those sags under control - this paint is gonna make Benjamin Moore into a power house even more so than now. That's how good this stuff is. All the other guys making their waterborne trim acrylic trim paints like Muralo, Graham - they're gonna get far behind. I can't think of any reason to use latex trim paint from now on - this stuff is just as easy, minus the runs. They get rid of the runs - everyone else is going out of business - that's how good this paint is.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

plainpainter said:


> It is an oil. The same confusion was had by the kid at the paintstore, just because they have figured out how to suspend an oil molecule in water vs. thinner doesn't mean it's any less of an oil paint. Heck - Latex wasn't natural to water either when it debuted. It was for many years being sold in thinner as well, until they figured out how to suspend a latex molecule in water.
> 
> And yes it does act and perform like an oil minus the fumes and the disgusting brush clean up. If they can get those sags under control - this paint is gonna make Benjamin Moore into a power house even more so than now. That's how good this stuff is. All the other guys making their waterborne trim acrylic trim paints like Muralo, Graham - they're gonna get far behind. I can't think of any reason to use latex trim paint from now on - this stuff is just as easy, minus the runs. They get rid of the runs - everyone else is going out of business - that's how good this paint is.


I disagree...I've used it and it drags just like an oil...Acrylics are lightening fast to apply,but not this stuff...I guess to painters who have applied hundreds of gallons of oil paints it is second nature to apply...I've always been an acrylic guy and have avoided oils at all costs..I certainly see the difference in ease of application...I wouldn't want to use this stuff every day,but it does have it's uses,definitely.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> It is an oil. The same confusion was had by the kid at the paintstore, just because they have figured out how to suspend an oil molecule in water vs. thinner doesn't mean it's any less of an oil paint. Heck - Latex wasn't natural to water either when it debuted. It was for many years being sold in thinner as well, until they figured out how to suspend a latex molecule in water.
> 
> And yes it does act and perform like an oil minus the fumes and the disgusting brush clean up. If they can get those sags under control - this paint is gonna make Benjamin Moore into a power house even more so than now. That's how good this stuff is. All the other guys making their waterborne trim acrylic trim paints like Muralo, Graham - they're gonna get far behind. I can't think of any reason to use latex trim paint from now on - this stuff is just as easy, minus the runs. They get rid of the runs - everyone else is going out of business - that's how good this paint is.


I haven't done the research to know, but EPA rules may shorten the life of this paint. It does handle a lot like oil imprevo, but the finish is better. I agree it will be amazing if the sag resistance is worked out.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I haven't done the research to know, but EPA rules may shorten the life of this paint. It does handle a lot like oil imprevo, but the finish is better. I agree it will be amazing if the sag resistance is worked out.


 
WHAT??!!!? Why? There are no fumes to this paint - there is nothing to regulate. It's a low VOC paint.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

JoseyWales said:


> I disagree...I've used it and it drags just like an oil...Acrylics are lightening fast to apply,but not this stuff...I guess to painters who have applied hundreds of gallons of oil paints it is second nature to apply...I've always been an acrylic guy and have avoided oils at all costs..I certainly see the difference in ease of application...I wouldn't want to use this stuff every day,but it does have it's uses,definitely.


Yes it may drag in comparison to latex, but the drag is vastly reduced by using the correct kind of brush. But if you are doing more higher end work - then this paint is the bee's knees.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I've been using it for the last 3 weeks, love it, no more satin impervo, Available in flat, satin ,semigloss and high gloss plus comes in base 4 :thumbup:
for some reason my first gallon took longer to cure, but with the last 3 gallons I didn't have that problem


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> WHAT??!!!? Why? There are no fumes to this paint - there is nothing to regulate. It's a low VOC paint.


OK. It may be for now, what about five years from now? 


PAB survey today asked if I would like to see it in eggshell, don't know how far from satin it would be.




ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I've been using it for the last 3 weeks, love it, no more satin impervo, Available in flat, satin ,semigloss and high gloss plus comes in base 4 :thumbup:
> for some reason my first gallon took longer to cure, but with the last 3 gallons I didn't have that problem



Flat? I didn't know that.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

yes sir flat


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I've been using it for the last 3 weeks, love it, no more satin impervo, Available in flat, satin ,semigloss and high gloss plus comes in base 4 :thumbup:
> for some reason my first gallon took longer to cure, but with the last 3 gallons I didn't have that problem


Specs say 16 hours before you can set anything on it. This product wil take time. 

You can't think of it asd a oil, or a latex, its advanced alkyd waterborne! A new product to learn, just as any product is out there. Painter seem to think if you can add water then its like waterborne, if you can add solvents, then its like oils. It got to be thought of as its own product with its own character, learn it!


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Depending on where you live . 
I love this product . Km 1930 hybrid 
Kelly Moore . Works great over oil .


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Update. Worked great. Adheres very, very well on oil.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

I was told today For those who are in CA, you will be waiting at least couple of months until BM warehouse sell all of the old batch. (quarts, maybe the gallons also)


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> yes sir flat


Im still waiting on the Flat finish, I guess they pulled it so we cant order it yet. Im glad they did though, nothing worse the a shelf full of a brand new product that has issues. Hopefully they'll get it worked out soon, I have a guy that only uses flat oil on everything and hes chomping at the bit for the Advance Flat. :thumbsup:


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I would love to try the flat oil as well.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> Im still waiting on the Flat finish, I guess they pulled it so we cant order it yet. Im glad they did though, nothing worse the a shelf full of a brand new product that has issues. Hopefully they'll get it worked out soon, I have a guy that only uses flat oil on everything and hes chomping at the bit for the Advance Flat. :thumbsup:


 What flat oil has he been using? We haven't had anything available to us since the BM Sani-Flat disappeared.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> I would love to try the flat oil as well.


What would you use it on?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Trim, accents, furniture.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

so, what excites you guys about using advance, or any other hybrid coating? 

I guess I must be missing something here. 

It has a long recoat time. It's basically an oil except you can clean up with water. 

There are already good quality true waterbornes to use on trim. 

Since it has good adhesion to surfaces coated with oil, then it will save time? How, if the dry time and recoat time is so long. I guess if you only need one coat to do the job then maybe. 

Help me out, and tell me. 

Or is it the excitement of something new?


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> What would you use it on?


 After the water based paints became the standard, we used to use flat oil back in the day for ceilings(& sometimes walls) where we believed there might be some bleed thru form cigarette smoke and things of that nature. It would actually eliminate the need for a primer/sealer many times that would be necessary with a water based top coat. Many times it would even hold back water stains without any Bin spot priming. It would dry out dead flat-snow white with one coat.(we used to tint it a little) Thinned appropriately it would spray like a dream if that was your thing. It was also a harder finish on the walls then the typical latex flat of the time. This was before the "matte" finishes were introduced. It was marketed as a flat enamel. It wasn't something that we would use a lot, but it served a specific niche very well and worked like a charm. One of those almost fool proof products. You could take a garage interior where the sheetrock hadn't been painted since it was built and it had turned gold or even brown and paint it with no bleed thru without a primer. It would also really stink up the place, but back in those days that was more accepted. It will be interesting to see if the modern version will have any of the same characteristics.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> so, what excites you guys about using advance, or any other hybrid coating?
> 
> I guess I must be missing something here.
> 
> ...


 I have only used just a little of it so far, but I see for us being used for residential repaint trim/woodwork where there is no color change and for new trim woodwork on remodels where I am looking for more open time for brushing trim, especially doors. It won't replace the acrylics for us. It will end up just being another option. Knowing where to use it for "you" will be the key to it actually helping rather than just being a novelty.

I am referring to the satin and semi-gloss when I speak of the trim-not the flat. Where we will use the flat, if we do at all remains to be seen.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> so, what excites you guys about using advance, or any other hybrid coating?
> 
> I guess I must be missing something here.
> 
> ...



Advance is the best finish quality I have ever seen. It feels wonderful as well, like an oil. I don't have to expose myself to solvents which are bad for you mkay..


Next high end trim job you get use it yourself and you will see.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Next high end trim job you get use it yourself and you will see.


Most "high-end" places here have all stained trim packs so there isn't as much hands in the air for me. 

But, yes, in situations that would call for a quality oil finish, I can see the value in this product.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

CliffK said:


> What flat oil has he been using? We haven't had anything available to us since the BM Sani-Flat disappeared.


C306 Calcimine Recoater. Under the Super Spec label. I don't know if its available in NY though. It seems every state has different VOC regs.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

NCPaint

Is this something BM just came out with?

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...interior-exterior-alkyd-high-gloss-enamel-133


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

StevenH said:


> NCPaint
> 
> Is this something BM just came out with?
> 
> http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/...interior-exterior-alkyd-high-gloss-enamel-133


Nope, it was called Metal & Wood Enamel...just a different name now, same stuff.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

TJ Paint said:


> What would you use it on?


Old plaster walls.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

in using anything waterborne- alkyd or not- I think a bonding primer is a good idea.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Rick the painter said:


> Old plaster walls.


Why's that?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Had my BM rep try to get me to get some of this today to use over some oil trim and doors I'm freshening up. This is the start of a big expensive job and I didn't want to "experiment" so I decided to do some checking first. Has the sag issue been eliminated yet? Anyone sprayed it out of an HVLP and if so how does it go down compared to oil?


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

i used it on a medium sized trim pack, sprayed it, it was great. sprayed and layed down like a good oil straight out of the bucket no thinning. I used the high gloss. It was one of the worst brushing products I had ever used, it has a slow cure but a fast tack, when I was brushing a casing I couldn't give it a final stroke to lay down the brush marks without it tearing the coating like I had pulled a broom through it. Surprisingly that even went away as it cured out, kinda weird. The problem with runs/sags are from trying to apply enough to be able to make it laydown while you brush it out which apparently is not necessary, I had no sags/runs when it was sprayed. I sprayed with an AAA, 410 tip.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

researchhound said:


> Has the sag issue been eliminated yet?


I thought about this thread yesterday when I had a customer (contractor) complain about the Advance.

"When I brush it out real heavy, it sags" <------Thats an exact quote of what he said. Now how am I supposed to respond to that? Ummmm "No $hit?"


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

NCPaint1 said:


> I thought about this thread yesterday when I had a customer (contractor) complain about the Advance.
> 
> "When I brush it out real heavy, it sags" <------Thats an exact quote of what he said. Now how am I supposed to respond to that? Ummmm "No $hit?"


Understood. 
From the tone of previous posts there seemed to be a feeling that there was a bit of a "learning curve" in using this product due to a sagging problem which was supposedly being adressed by BM. Instead it's more of a technique issue. I've not used any of it yet. I'm going to get some and do a little experimenting. Thanks


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

It is a loose paint that will run if over applied in the slightest. I was told I had the new formula last I bought, but I couldn't tell a difference. I think they didn't know what they were saying and it was the old formula. 

Count on 3 light coats, or two tack coat-finish coats to prevent sags/runs similar to the old acrylic enamels if you are using the old one.


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## StevenH (Sep 7, 2009)

I was told that they reformulated to make it dry faster.
But they wont ship the new formula until the old batch in warehouse is gone.


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## bwpainting (Jun 1, 2011)

StevenH said:


> I was told that they reformulated to make it dry faster.
> But they wont ship the new formula until the old batch in warehouse is gone.


"yeah we know it's crap so we fixed it, but somebody's gotta pay for all of this crap"


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Its far from crap, in fact it has one of the best finish qualities you will ever see for an interior enamel. It just runs and sags if over applied.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

bwpainting said:


> "yeah we know it's crap so we fixed it, but somebody's gotta pay for all of this crap"


I've been using it for the last month, I also used the acrylic/ alkyd from SW.guess what ? not even close, Advance brushes and levels beautifully and customers love the sheen.When using the one from SW I had to use semigloss to kind of get the same sheen as the Advance.Advance doesn't smell like conventional oil base while the one from SW Stinks, so far I'm in love and I'm not going back to Satin Impervo


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

SL and RP - What have you been applying it over and have either of you used it through an HVLP? I have a bunch of louvered bi-fold closet doors coming up that have a BM semi-gloss alkyd on them now.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

I haven't use an HVLP just the Airless. My BM dealer has some samples sprayed with an HVLP, They look better than with the Airless. He said that you need to cut it with water in order to spray it with the HVLP


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> I haven't use an HVLP just the Airless. My BM dealer has some samples sprayed with an HVLP, They look better than with the Airless. He said that you need to cut it with water in order to spray it with the HVLP


My rep said to treat it like an alkyd except for the clean up. Others have said it's thin enough to spray as is out of the using an airless. Would do a vis test to see how it is for an HVLP. He's going to give me a quart to play with. Would be great to have a product with the HVLP spray qualities of an alkyd but with the clean up and similar dry time of an acrylic.


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