# Benjamin Moore Bath and Spa



## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

I am looking for some honest feedback on this product! I have used a lot of Regal Select and a little bit of Aura but never this product. Having been in the paint business a long time matte is not the sheen I would expect from a coating designed for moisture areas. A designer specified this product, and I am concerned from the conversation I had with my dealer that it feels like a very rough surface when done and perhaps may not offer any better end performance . I want to to know if you guys have had any first hand feedback on this coating after having been in service for a reasonable period of time! Is it really better than say Aura in eggshell! Input??


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## [email protected] (Feb 24, 2008)

Hey Dave, Good to see ya posting. I almost used this product in the Master Bath I just finished but decided to go with Regal Select Pearl. I'm looking forward to the responses to this one as I haven't used it yet.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Have used it a couple times, and haven't heard any complaints. They've been done for a couple years or so. I wouldn't use the eggshell regular aura if it gets a lot of moisture, as in tub / shower etc. 
I still think something like Regal Pearl would be a great choice. I guess if you really want a matte finish the aura spa is the way to go, but who really wants a Matte finish in the bath?


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

I have painted entire houses with Bath and Spa - serious moisture issues. It touches up very well, washed very well - Water beads off the wall - I have it in my own bathroom and office.

I have painted University rental suites and know that there was 5 hot showers the same night I painted - I have been back to several bathrooms we painted with B & S an it is holding up great - even in bathroom where we treated for major mildew - 

My favorite wall paint from their entire line.

I also keep B&S in cloud white stock for bathroom ceilings.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Hydrophobic resin like Guardz that pushes moisture away. Best 
Product BM has. Used in all our bathrooms and no issue with streaking even with 4 girls in the house. Did the commercial 24 hour buffet washroom at Foxwoods Casino after all epoxy coatings had failed. Gave us 8 hours to get block walls coated and then all 4 commercial dishwashers would start again. So far it's sticking to the old polyamide epoxy and no mildew. Used 55 gallons.


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

I've done several high frequency shower ceilings with the stuff and it's been great. Two of the jobs were specific calls to fix a situation - paint peeling from the ceiling applied by previous contractors. I used B&S on both and they're still looking sharp after about 16 months of heavy use. I'm not sure what the other products were, but they peeled/mildewed after a few months from the heavy moisture and lack of bonding to the substrate. B&S has fixed both of those issues.

The stuff gets a thumbs up from me!


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

I agree with most comments above.
We used it a lot and I have to say it is the best product for bathrooms.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks guys for all the great comments! I am shocked that a water based bath paint would stick to a poly epoxy and hold up. Sounds like I need to break my stereotype and consider a matte for a bath, and or bath ceilings. So often I see streaks on jobs that have been done within a year or two that just dont lend themselves to the referral base I like. Based upon the comments the down time for return to service is also very favorable. 

It sounds like there is a little differet resin in this product that repels moisture so I think I am going to give it a try on this job! 

And Jason good seeing you on here as well. I have been reading a lot more posts just for this very reason. After 15 years at Sherwin and a couple licensed now my eyes are wide open! Go Benjamin Moore!


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## ddemair (Nov 3, 2008)

NACE said:


> Hydrophobic resin like Guardz that pushes moisture away. Best
> Product BM has. Used in all our bathrooms and no issue with streaking even with 4 girls in the house. Did the commercial 24 hour buffet washroom at Foxwoods Casino after all epoxy coatings had failed. Gave us 8 hours to get block walls coated and then all 4 commercial dishwashers would start again. So far it's sticking to the old polyamide epoxy and no mildew. Used 55 gallons.


How did you come to learn this (Hydrophobic resin). I asked about the difference between B&S and Aura matte at my local dealer and they said that it was basically the label and maybe a little mildewcide.

I'm not questioning the truth of your statement. I'd just like to know how I can find out this sort of thing in the future BEFORE asking at my dealer.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

ddemair said:


> How did you come to learn this (Hydrophobic resin). I asked about the difference between B&S and Aura matte at my local dealer and they said that it was basically the label and maybe a little mildewcide.
> 
> I'm not questioning the truth of your statement. I'd just like to know how I can find out this sort of thing in the future BEFORE asking at my dealer.



The TDS would be a good place to start.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Sorry, just checked the TDS, it says "acrylic and proprietary resins"; NACE has a habit of knowing his stuff. Ask the right person the right question and you get the right answer.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

During the development of the Gennex tint system and the Aura Technology, it was thought that since the waterborne colorants contained no glycols like UTC's, that surfactant leach would be eliminated. That is why Aura initially said any color, any finish, anywhere, including a Matte finish in a humid environment for people who prefered a lower sheen in Kitchens and Bathroom's. It turns out that there is some surfactant's, or soaps in the paint and colorant, and some surfactant leaching was occuring in all finishes. Therefore, the lab integrated a hydrophobic resin into the Gennex platform to create a finish that had the durability, hide, spread rate, and finish of a matte, without any streaking or surfactant leach associated with Glycol based tints and coatings. Hopefully, this is still the case with the 532 Bath & Spa. I find it to be a bit grainy, but has the smoothness, hide, spread, and durability of Aura. It washes especially well for things like toothpaste, hairspray, spray starch, makeup etc, and generally does not leach. What I have found is that hard water can leave streaks like a surfactant as the minerals in water are left on the surface in the grainy texture of B&S after condensation has evaporated. It does have a very good and expensive mildewcide in it, as do all the Gennex premium products. I find it is best applied with a microfiber roller, and it cleans best with a microfiber rag and a mild "Green" type cleaner that does not contain a harsher detergent or higher alkalinity. Hopefully that clarifies my earlier post. It is still holding up well in the Dishwasing Room at Foxwoods.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

NACE your comments are detailed and much appreciated. Do you feel that the relative grainy texture I am hearing about detracts in appearance or is heavy enough to catch stuff which might detract from its overall goal? This bath I am doing is used by numerous kids daily and they are fed up with the results of the last two coatings used which were satin general purpose water based paints. The room doesn't have a lot of ventilation ! We thought about a water based epoxy but the owner wasn't interested in having that type of coating in the house !


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

B&S levels extremely well especially with a micro fiber cover. If there is stipple left from the previous applications it will ghost through. Skim coat and paint with micro fiber and B&S will remain as smooth as the existing surface. WB epoxy is silly. It can amber and can leach or blush just like single component coatings. Just a note. It's not up to the paint, the painter or the coating manufacturer to make up for poor ventilation. Don't let the poor design of the house, mediocre construction or inadequate ventilation be the excuse for blaming the paint or the painter. Tell them to fix the ventilation however Aura B&S is the best we can do if the ventilation is not going to be addressed.


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## madochio (Oct 26, 2011)

NACE said:


> During the development of the Gennex tint system and the Aura Technology, it was thought that since the waterborne colorants contained no glycols like UTC's, that surfactant leach would be eliminated. That is why Aura initially said any color, any finish, anywhere, including a Matte finish in a humid environment for people who prefered a lower sheen in Kitchens and Bathroom's. It turns out that there is some surfactant's, or soaps in the paint and colorant, and some surfactant leaching was occuring in all finishes. Therefore, the lab integrated a hydrophobic resin into the Gennex platform to create a finish that had the durability, hide, spread rate, and finish of a matte, without any streaking or surfactant leach associated with Glycol based tints and coatings. Hopefully, this is still the case with the 532 Bath & Spa. I find it to be a bit grainy, but has the smoothness, hide, spread, and durability of Aura. It washes especially well for things like toothpaste, hairspray, spray starch, makeup etc, and generally does not leach. What I have found is that hard water can leave streaks like a surfactant as the minerals in water are left on the surface in the grainy texture of B&S after condensation has evaporated. It does have a very good and expensive mildewcide in it, as do all the Gennex premium products. I find it is best applied with a microfiber roller, and it cleans best with a microfiber rag and a mild "Green" type cleaner that does not contain a harsher detergent or higher alkalinity. Hopefully that clarifies my earlier post. It is still holding up well in the Dishwasing Room at Foxwoods.


wow:thumbsup:, that is beyond anything anyone has ever told me on said product. either you read a lot of TDS or MSDS, or you know a lot of people. Question for you is on the new BM aborcoat S/T waterbased stuff any feedback on that one? it has not taken off for us here in MN, i am old school and do not trust any waterbased S/T, but i am open to hear what others are thinking.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

If you mean the WB with the clear coat I'm not a big fan. Some guys like it and I have used quite a bit of both transparent and semi transparent. However the new 626 transparent for hardwood is outstanding. The transparent and semi transparent are 60% alkyd but are soap and water clean up.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I always befuddle the paint reps (well, at least sometimes) because I want all the information like NACE provides. I think they think I am a bit odd.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I always befuddle the paint reps (well, at least sometimes) because I want all the information like NACE provides. I think they think I am a bit odd.


Ask me anything. i've been in this for 40 years and worked for BM for 25 years, I know all the reps from all the major companies including industrial coatings. They are my friends and we respect each others industry and opportunity to make a living. I'll tell you straight from personal experience. I love this business. I respect all that you do. I've been there from both sides, hard. I know where the paint company is coming from and the end user. There are no secrets. I'm here to help in the best way I can. I have no loyalties, just want your business's to to well and thrive, regardless of brand loyalty. It's only paint.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

NACE said:


> Ask me anything. i've been in this for 40 years and worked for BM for 25 years, I know all the reps from all the major companies including industrial coatings. They are my friends and we respect each others industry and opportunity to make a living. I'll tell you straight from personal experience. I love this business. I respect all that you do. I've been there from both sides, hard. I know where the paint company is coming from and the end user. There are no secrets. I'm here to help in the best way I can. I have no loyalties, just want your business's to to well and thrive, regardless of brand loyalty. It's only paint.


Nace and Wolfgang are the top two people's numbers I would love to have on speed dial.

Maybe Wise so he can call me a d-bag everytime I take a really stupid job in which I should have known better.


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## deluxe (Nov 30, 2008)

:thumbsup: That's why I love this forum. 


NACE said:


> During the development of the Gennex tint system and the Aura Technology, it was thought that since the waterborne colorants contained no glycols like UTC's, that surfactant leach would be eliminated. That is why Aura initially said any color, any finish, anywhere, including a Matte finish in a humid environment for people who prefered a lower sheen in Kitchens and Bathroom's. It turns out that there is some surfactant's, or soaps in the paint and colorant, and some surfactant leaching was occuring in all finishes. Therefore, the lab integrated a hydrophobic resin into the Gennex platform to create a finish that had the durability, hide, spread rate, and finish of a matte, without any streaking or surfactant leach associated with Glycol based tints and coatings. Hopefully, this is still the case with the 532 Bath & Spa. I find it to be a bit grainy, but has the smoothness, hide, spread, and durability of Aura. It washes especially well for things like toothpaste, hairspray, spray starch, makeup etc, and generally does not leach. What I have found is that hard water can leave streaks like a surfactant as the minerals in water are left on the surface in the grainy texture of B&S after condensation has evaporated. It does have a very good and expensive mildewcide in it, as do all the Gennex premium products. I find it is best applied with a microfiber roller, and it cleans best with a microfiber rag and a mild "Green" type cleaner that does not contain a harsher detergent or higher alkalinity. Hopefully that clarifies my earlier post. It is still holding up well in the Dishwasing Room at Foxwoods.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> I always befuddle the paint reps (well, at least sometimes) because I want all the information like NACE provides. I think they think I am a bit odd.


Oh so you're "that guy"  :jester:


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> Oh so you're "that guy"  :jester:


Hey NC, can you tell my why BM Advance, being a alkyd resin, still tests with solvent as if it is a waterborne? Is the resin soluble in water because they add some polarized groups to the alkyd chain allowing for water solubility? Is it a basic pH or acidic pH?

Are the "full spectrum" paint colors really anything special or designer hogwash?

Why can't BM have all their major interior lines match the factory color chip when comparing all lines in the same color?

If lacquer thinner does not affect old oil paint on trim and dissolves acrylic paint, why can you spray lacquer over acrylic paint with no effects but oils may wrinkle?


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

DeanV said:


> Are the "full spectrum" paint colors really anything special or designer hogwash?


I'll take the easy one...they are special in that they don't use any black in the formulas and currently are only formulated for Aura. To us paint store peeps, the formulas read like someone trying to learn how to match colors--more than 4 colorants with a gratuitous drop of at least 2 or more to make the formulas harder to match--or at least that is the theory. 

As for designer hogwash, partially true especially when having to overcome metamerism all of these years and suddenly the fact that a client would want their colors to look different in every light source is a good thing...

The fan decks are cool though--actual Aura eggshell paint on the cards. Makes it easy for clients to see and feel the color.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I tried to steal the only Color Story deck from a certain store. They only had one copy and they cost $30-40 so, no freebies either I guess.

I actually asked them that question concerning color as well (different effects in different lighting). I can only imagine how some customers are going to respond to the colors looking different in different lighting. Have to remember to caution them on that if I use that deck. Is it really a much more obvious effect than traditional colors? I mean after all we are only seeing the wavelengths of light that a surface reflects, how much does it matter if there are 3 tints including a little black vs. 5 tints or more and a little grey? 

Isn't it C2 or Farrow and Ball that is all full spectum colors as well?


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Today is test day! Bath and Spa on walls and ceiling in a bath used by 6 kids! You can't get a better test than that! Walls cleaned and sanded and ready to see how this stuff looks in person!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

DeanV said:


> Hey NC, can you tell my why BM Advance, being a alkyd resin, still tests with solvent as if it is a waterborne? Is the resin soluble in water because they add some polarized groups to the alkyd chain allowing for water solubility? Is it a basic pH or acidic pH?
> 
> If I knew I wouldnt own a store, i'd be manufacturing my own paint products. Im a tint jockey not a chemist :jester:
> 
> ...



Dean, sorry for the delayed response. Somehow I missed this one. Was probably busy not taking 6 of your polls about the same thing :whistling2: :jester:


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## prototype66 (Mar 13, 2008)

I need a link to the Nace Hotline! You are truly one to follow! Thanks to everyone on the info!
Man I love this site!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree its great having someone so knowledgeable here.


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## alertchief (Nov 12, 2009)

Yesterday I got the chance to play with Bath and spa in 2 colors. Used a light off white for ceiling that was previously a little lighter shade of white! Smooth ceiling required 2 coats as this did not cover like its regular Aura brother! I am a little suspect based on the white over white coverage that this a product labeled Aura because of its relative quality of its end performance . It's wet and dry hide were not what I would have expected in a very light off white over white!

The walls were done in a lime / sage green color that perhaps because of its color load had far better hide! It has a much different smell than regular Aura! It didn't appear to have quite the build as traditional Aura as well. I also noted on cleanup rinse of brushes and pot far more suds than normal. I used a 3/8 inch microfiber cover. It did have nice flow and leveling properties!

I would have to say though that over a sanded orange peel texture it's final appearance is very good! I was thinking it was going to have a little more of a grainy feel like the duration matte we have in one room! It appears to have maybe a 3 to 5 degree sheen .

The real test will be putting it into service! Things can look great but this is one product I am more interested in to see its durability and look as the kids abuse it!


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I think you will be happy with it. I haven't heard any complaints with condensating water streaking like with other paints.


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## jenni (Aug 4, 2011)

the only time i've used this paint is in my own bathroom. it dries to the touch very quickly. added a little bit of the bm paint extender for aura, which i think added a tiny bit of sheen to it. used the aura microfiber roller and the end result was really smooth. the color was true. havent had a problem with water or toothpaste leaving any stains.


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## Ramsden Painting (Jul 17, 2011)

I have some beadboard going up in a bath, how do you think this would workif we sprayed the BM bath paint?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ramsden Painting said:


> I have some beadboard going up in a bath, how do you think this would workif we sprayed the BM bath paint?


Just fine, but its a Matte finish.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> Dean, sorry for the delayed response. Somehow I missed this one. Was probably busy not taking 6 of your polls about the same thing :whistling2: :jester:


. A common misconception in the paint industry is that metamerism is the phenomenon describing why paints don't match. The opposite is true. Metamerism is used to describe how two objects with differing spectral power distributions can appear to be the same color, or metamers. However, typically these objects will only appear to match under specific conditions. When the conditions change, most commonly the lighting input, there can be metameric failure (in this case illuminant metameric failure). There are many types of metameric failure observed in the paint industry. I too recommend Google and Wikipedia for additional information. Color matchers speak the truth when they say there is no match. Just like the line from The Matrix, "there is no spoon". We delude ourselves into thinking we can even match a competitors color. In actuality we are approximating the color with a tolerable variance for a consumer who doesn't know the difference. I am in no way suggesting we stop approximating colors, but believe true service for our customers starts with knowledge of the facts. 


The quick answer is yes. A color chip produced with inks, dyes, lacquer, or whatever technology they employ will not have the same spectral power distribution as paint. Think of the spectral power distribution of an object as its fingerprint, as unique to the item as its chemical structure. The best a manufacturer can do is have their color tools appear to match (metamers) under a specific light setting with a hopefully low degree of metamerism. The current color tools seem to be better “tuned” for CP colorants and many dealers have noticed a higher degree of metamerism in the Gennex products. This being said, we check all colors under the “optimum” setting of the Benjamin Moore branded illuminaire, and have a low incidence of metameric failure in the Gennex system. As products are transitioned from CP to Gennex we may benefit from a re-tuning of the color tools and the situation may improve. 

If you recall when the Gennex system was released, part of the training included a comparison of the CP colors and the Gennex counterparts. The colors which are similar in strength and tone (spectral power distribution) include, TG-G1, WH-W1, RX-R3, OY-Y3, GY-S2, BK-S1. Colors made with these pigments on either platform will display a low degree of metamerism. Any color made with Y2, B1, O1, R2, or M1, is likely to display a higher degree of metamerism as these colorants vary in tone and strength. Be particularly wary of colors using O1 or R2 as these Gennex variants are double the strength of their CP counterparts. 

Color Stories full spectrum colors would be very difficult to approximate with inks, dyes, or lacquers with a low degree of metamerism. This is why the color chips and fan decks are coated with actual paint. For the most part, this produces a spectral color match with very little if any metameric failure.


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