# primer talk (no this one is not about backrolling )



## jhdrywall&paint (Jan 4, 2011)

so i just got done reading a post on jp's web site about primer from 2008 
some great info JP and i like you the way you think about primer!

now what i wanna know is what do the rest of you guys use for your go to primer for new drywall ?

i myself use SW high build thinned down a bit . been using it for years now 
i love it ! no flashing ect, and its cheap 

but i really like JP's idea of using gardz - but we dont have it in canada .

but i was at the local SW store today and thay sell a product called 
drywall conditioner - from the tds it seems like the same thing ?
told the rep i was thinking of using it for priming 
he thought i was crazy lol 

but i get the idea with the gardz!
but i could also see builders asking me why i didnt prime cuzz its clear lol


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Ppg 6-2


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

PPG 6-2 :thumbup:


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## jhdrywall&paint (Jan 4, 2011)

yep if we could get it in canada


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## ROOMINADAY (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes you can - I converted from BM primer to PPG 6-2 from PT advice..plus it is almost 1/2 the cost.

It sands very nice and leaves the D/W very even. It is sold as Pittsburg Speedhide Primer/Sealer 6-2c in my neck of the woods.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Where in Canada, Labrador? (not that there is anything wrong with it)
Both PPG 6-2 and Gardz are widely available.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

jhdrywall&paint said:


> yep if we could get it in canada


It would really help if you put your location on your profile :thumbsup:


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

ROOMINADAY said:


> Yes you can - I converted from BM primer to PPG 6-2 from PT advice..plus it is almost 1/2 the cost.
> 
> It sands very nice and leaves the D/W very even. It is sold as Pittsburg Speedhide Primer/Sealer 6-2c in my neck of the woods.



Who do you buy it through?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Who do you buy it through?


The PPG website has a dealer locator, and there seem to be a bunch of retailers in the Winnepeg area.

http://www.ppgpittsburghpaints.com/

Even though it says "Zip Code" in the "Where to buy" window, Canadian postal codes will give you results for Canada.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Gough said:


> The PPG website has a dealer locator, and there seem to be a bunch of retailers in the Winnepeg area.
> 
> http://www.ppgpittsburghpaints.com/
> 
> Even though it says "Zip Code" in the "Where to buy" window, Canadian postal codes will give you results for Canada.


Weak of me not to 'search' myself.

Thanks for holding my hand.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Sherwin Williams High Build does a nice job at not raising the surface fibers and scuffs from sanding on new drywall. It's one of the few drywall primers that feel relatively smooth when dry only requiring minimal sanding or I should say, a light sanding. I am confident in saying I am not satisfied with the sealing properties of the product. 

Many new primers suitable for drywall or designed for new drywall have come out since the 2007-2008 articles with an emphasis on priming and sealing. If I had something new with those results I would be talking about them extensively. 

Gardz works great because its thin, it penetrates and equalizes the porosity between mud and board. Gardz is not one of those products that only work some of the time on some mud and board. It's designed to do a specific task and it does it well. It does many other things well too.

I used to suggest using Gardz to brush or roll over drywall patches made over previously painted surfaces on NC or repaints but I ran into a problem where the areas I sealed with Gardz stayed shinier than the paint around it. Seems more effective if you patch over eggshell then Gardz the patch vs. patch over flat and Gardz the patch.

We are testing two new primer sealers for new drywall and will be adding the PPG primer too for review. I'm not thrilled about using Gardz but its a failsafe solution for certain jobs. I keep searching for good drywall primers.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Jack- Before I knew of gardz for sealing damage etc- I used Zin 123. Given that it seals why don't you like it for wall primer before an egg finish- seems to me its holdout is pretty good too. 
BTW- I have used a 75/25% combo of gardz/123 so I had some tinting for seeing flaws that needed attn. Made the gardz a little thicker- less spatter and haven't seen any compatibility issues. 
I have even done that with Aura in my finish color- so I'm using tinted gardz basically. works. 
Guys that don't mix- don't be hatin! lol


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

BrushJockey said:


> Jack- Before I knew of gardz for sealing damage etc- I used Zin 123. Given that it seals why don't you like it for wall primer before an egg finish- seems to me its holdout is pretty good too.
> BTW- I have used a 75/25% combo of gardz/123 so I had some tinting for seeing flaws that needed attn. Made the gardz a little thicker- less spatter and haven't seen any compatibility issues.
> I have even done that with Aura in my finish color- so I'm using tinted gardz basically. works.
> Guys that don't mix- don't be hatin! lol


Its been years since I last put 123 on bare drywall and do not recall why I didnt use it afterwards. Maybe the sanding aspect? Never tried mixing those two products but have mixed Gardz with others. 

How did 123 sand when used stock on new board? Why did you end up mixing 3:1 with Gardz? Any particular reason? Certain muds or drywall?


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

It's been a while for me too , but I always thin 123 a bit for penetration, and if I remember right it was a smooth finish that didn't raise the grain. Anything that did was knocked off easily. Much like Gardz, except opaque and not sticky. 
Why I do the combo is for a little hide ( if I add the finish color I'm heading in the right direction) plus it is easier to spot imperfections that need some attn. I kept the mix mostly gardz so I wouldn't loose what it does, and seems to work well.
I do more redo work than new, so I will use this over paper stripped walls and other probs, or even as a quick primer to even things up after patching. 
I just wish the stuff didn't stink so much..


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## Gotdibz (Sep 30, 2010)

Hey guys I have never used the ppg stuff. sounds good.( I need try some of this stuff)
I like to use the Fresh start 100% acrylic primer
and also get good results with
Super Spec® Latex Enamel Undercoater & Primer Sealer

they both dry pretty quick, and I like the way they seal the surface.


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## jhdrywall&paint (Jan 4, 2011)

sorry i am in alberta canada 
i found a few places that sell ppg today 
so you guys say that the Primer/Sealer 6-2c works good 
i use SW or benjamin moore most of the time 
the SW high build is great stuff but like JP said it is not a good sealer unless you thin it out


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

PPG 6-2 is what I use.


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## jhdrywall&paint (Jan 4, 2011)

could someone post a link to the PPG 6-2 
all i find in there site is 6-4 and 5-2 lol


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

IIRC speedhide interor latex quick dry is 6-2.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

what's wrong with using the gripper for drywall? It's meant to penetrate as it's a multipurpose primer and leaves an eggshell finish for good enamel holdout.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jhdrywall&paint said:


> could someone post a link to the PPG 6-2
> all i find in there site is 6-4 and 5-2 lol


As others have mentioned, 6-2 was a Speedhide product, but you're right that it's no longer shown on the PPG website. I know that, at least in the past, PPG has re-numbered some of its products without changing the formulation. The 6-4 is a "high-build" product, but I wonder about the 5-2.


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## kdpaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I love Gripper for many things, but it doesnt seem to bond/seal the mud on taped joints, or skimmed areas. I think it dries too fast to really adhere. I have seen it pull right off the mud. When actually pulled, not by itself or anything crazy like that...Zinsser has a new-ish product specifically for new drywall, anyone try it?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> what's wrong with using the gripper for drywall? It's meant to penetrate as it's a multipurpose primer and leaves an eggshell finish for good enamel holdout.


In my tests, Glidden Professional semi-matte and BEHR Ultra Eggshell both outperformed Gripper direct to bare drywall in sheen uniformity.


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## Boden Painting (Dec 27, 2007)

I've been using USG first coat lately, great hide of minor defects. Prior to that I was masterhide or PPG 5-2.


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## jhdrywall&paint (Jan 4, 2011)

i like the SW high build- but today i used some synko T.I.P.S now this stuff is great
http://www.cgcinc.com/en/products/p...(total-interior-primer-sealer).aspx?pType=PRO

it soaks in good -sands great i did a tape test and it sticks really good


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> in my tests, glidden professional semi-matte and *behr ultra eggshell both outperformed gripper* direct to bare drywall in sheen uniformity.


i am calling you out on that one. No way.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

nEighter said:


> i am calling you out on that one. No way.


I know, hard to believe. 

Glidden Professional semi-matte direct to bare drywall - 1 coat. That is a window reflection from top of the stairs behind orange arrow.





BEHR ULTRA Eggshell direct to bare drywall - 1 coat





Wall primers direct to bare drywall seen here for comparison.
.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

That's how Jack makes all his money - he doesn't bother priming!! LOL. This is such an 80's hack mentality - this violates the laws of physics - anything you apply prior to paint is going to improve enamel holdout - not make it worse! Even so - do you not do anything to the first coat of paint to make it absorb better into drywall? Paint traditionally has less of the resins needed to bond than primers do. That's why we use primers prior to painting. This is unbelieveable to me.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> That's how Jack makes all his money - he doesn't bother priming!! LOL. This is such an 80's hack mentality - this violates the laws of physics - anything you apply prior to paint is going to improve enamel holdout - not make it worse! Even so - do you not do anything to the first coat of paint to make it absorb better into drywall? Paint traditionally has less of the resins needed to bond than primers do. That's why we use primers prior to painting. This is unbelieveable to me.


Its absolutely insane for me to think a primer will do better than what I posted. I keep trying primers waiting for one of them to WOW me for sheen and tack. 

On hack mentality, its very hack to apply a primer of less quality vs what I posted. Not only that poor primer lacks in sheen uniformity, it lacks in stick and its outright silly to use it and apply 2 top coats. Its entirely a wasted step. You keep doing your primer and I'll keep doing my direct paint to drywall for awesome results. If your paint was quality like I posted, you'll see you dont need the primer.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Jack, just a reality check, it's you that doesn't prime and uses Behr paints. What are we all missing?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't know about most folks, but it always seemed to me that using a $15/gallon drywall primer tinted to the finish color always seemed to save on materials cost than wasting expensive paint to be sucked into bare drywall - where the pigment is gonna be seen. 

Jack drywall primers have clays to plug up pores - this allows expensive paint not to get sucked in needlessly - you mystify me.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> Its absolutely insane for me to think a primer will do better than what I posted. I keep trying primers waiting for one of them to WOW me for sheen and tack.
> 
> On hack mentality, its very hack to apply a primer of less quality vs what I posted. Not only that poor primer lacks in sheen uniformity, it lacks in stick and its outright silly to use it and apply 2 top coats. Its entirely a wasted step. You keep doing your primer and I'll keep doing my direct paint to drywall for awesome results. If your paint was quality like I posted, you'll see you dont need the primer.


In the days of latex top coats over raw drywall I believe a quality primer made for a nicer and better job both short and long term. Since the 100% acrylic top coats now rule the market I do not believe it is as important. I believe that you can make a nice job with a double coat of a quality 100% acrylic. Many of the manufacturers make the claim as well. I was at a contractors show(several years back) and the BM rep was demonstrating Aura on raw drywall. He claimed a primer was absolutely not necessary. If there is a lot of highlighting that needs to be done on the spackle after the base coat, then many times you end up going with the 3 coats anyway. If the highlighting is minimal you can usually get away with spot priming except on big walls that get a lot of light from an angle. I can't speak for the Behr line, only BM. I have never used a gal. of Behr(the Depot gives me a splitting headache)


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I don't know about most folks, but it always seemed to me that using a $15/gallon drywall primer tinted to the finish color always seemed to save on materials cost than wasting expensive paint to be sucked into bare drywall - where the pigment is gonna be seen.
> 
> Jack drywall primers have clays to plug up pores - this allows expensive paint not to get sucked in needlessly - you mystify me.


I understand, I am very unconventional. I do not know specifically why drywall primers produce less effective results over the paint I mentioned. Its a mystery and beyond my scope of really wanting to know why. It might be safe to say that with all the new primer/sealers past couple years and the focus on equalizing porosity between mud and board to the point its extended beyond paint to the very people who make drywall and mud - that there is an issue to be resolved as I've pointed out repeatedly. I certainly did not expect some paint to outperform primer but I found that out many years ago. All I see is more paints outperforming primers over the years vs primer advancements. 

Dan, this goes out of my normal to post on PT and I dont want to hj this thread but regarding your moving forward for 2011 thread and saying talk about 8 vs 9, Alpha vs Purdy etc is getting to the point of foolishness and saying there are more important areas to focus like ROI etc. I couldn't disagree more with you. 

Your product, your tools and your paint or the lack of a primer coat have a direct impact on ROI. Those items are everything in this business. Those things come first before anything for me. The rest follows and comes through natural progression for the efforts you put into what you provide your customers. 

Word of mouth is effortless when you go out of your way to provide the customer (long before the phone rings) what is best in the most cost effective way possible. Keyword being BEST. I never compromise quality, when you do that, word of mouth doesnt exist. I'm not sure if you are aware but I never advertised beyond the day I went into business. 

That said, those pics I posted with 1 coat of paint will obviously produce outstanding 2nd coat results and if I lived in your area and we were billing the same, I would be less than you because less material and less labor on a primer coat. Lets even say you and I both charge $1500 for the same job. Who is going to be more profitable? Who will have the greater impact on ROI? Whats the investment? Paint vs primer. Just sayin as much as I mystify you, you can maybe imagine what I am thinking.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

One thing though, is that whenever I have used paint instead of primer on raw drywall is that you go through a lot more material than what it would be with primer. Now, if you walk into one of those homes in the picture, it looks like 2 guys could mask, spray, and backroll in one day. Including coating the ceilings.

Add in that spraying and backrolling produces a better finished product in my opinion compared to just rolling out the primer/1st coat. 

Also, primer seals better if it is sprayed and backrolled than just rolled. I know because the painter I used to work for just rolled primer on raw drywall in NC and ever since I have sprayed and backrolled it. The difference in the number of gallons in quite significant and the additional build on the drywall is obvious.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Another PPG 6-2 user here. :thumbup:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> One thing though, is that whenever I have used paint instead of primer on raw drywall is that you go through a lot more material than what it would be with primer. Now, if you walk into one of those homes in the picture, it looks like 2 guys could mask, spray, and backroll in one day. Including coating the ceilings.
> 
> Add in that spraying and backrolling produces a better finished product in my opinion compared to just rolling out the primer/1st coat.
> 
> Also, primer seals better if it is sprayed and backrolled than just rolled. I know because the painter I used to work for just rolled primer on raw drywall in NC and ever since I have sprayed and backrolled it. The difference in the number of gallons in quite significant and the additional build on the drywall is obvious.


No question you can get more build with spraying and does use a lot more paint vs direct rolling. I've never compared results between the two methods with the 2 products I mentioned. 

When I walked on this PC's job (below) and saw that horrid prime job I couldnt help but ask why he isnt applying paint direct to the bare drywall. He was like..  He tried to convince me you need a primer. I was like.. :blink: since when, the 80's? There is no way I am going to go through any effort to prime my walls and have them turn out like below. Those pics I posted almost look finished in one coat. He needs to sand the hell out of those walls and apply 2 more coats. Its silly.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Aura does that on walls as well, looks almost covered in 1 coat on raw drywall. But, you only get about 275 sq. ft./gallon (rolled application, not sprayed). And, it does not mask the seam to wall board texture difference as well as back rolled primer. Drywall primed rolled goes much further on a sq. ft. basis. Plus the first coat on raw drywall goes much slower than the first coat over primer.

A lot of variables to keep track of to evaluate the best bang for the buck!


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Aura does that on walls as well, looks almost covered in 1 coat on raw drywall. But, you only get about 275 sq. ft./gallon (rolled application, not sprayed). And, it does not mask the seam to wall board texture difference as well as back rolled primer. Drywall primed rolled goes much further on a sq. ft. basis. Plus the first coat on raw drywall goes much slower than the first coat over primer.
> 
> A lot of variables to keep track of to evaluate the best bang for the buck!


I know, lots of variables. They become critical at times within the system. It's easy for me to forget what I put into finding certain things out, what works, what doesnt. Those countless product tests and hours figuring things out. But this math below is easy to figure out.

Labor: Pay 2 guys to prime 2500sq ft house $340 (real example)
Materials: Primer $260
Labor to sand walls: $54
Total: $654 which could go straight in your pocket.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Ok - let's just say for the sake of arguement the entire paint industry has hoodwinked us all into thinking we need primers, when we really don't. Or let's assume that perhaps there was a time when paints circa 80's formulations truly needed a primer, but in the meantime paints have improved to such a point they don't need them anymore, and the paint industry just 'conveniently' forgot to tell us.

Why in carnations would a primer promote the very thing they say they are there to solve? Uneven surface, porosity, etc - yet, Jack, you are saying primers are actually making things worse? If a wall is flashing, it means there is better sealing going on in other some areas in others?

I know when I do mud patches, the paint never lays down the same as the remainder of the wall. It's not that the patch isn't sealed, it's that the stipple is still loose and gives an appearance of flashing - is that what we are perhaps seeing in the photos?

I am still trying to think this through - perhaps on the patched areas, the primer isn't really penetrating and thus there is more a buildup of primer film - whereas it's soaking too much into the remaining areas?

If memory serves me correctly, guys use to use the cheapest lightweight joint compound all the time, blue lid instead of green lid, and perhaps drywall primers are more formulated to dive into that material instead? And perhaps paints because they have to follow the VOC laws much more than primer/sealers have to - have a different density and much more pigment - and perhaps do a better overall job sealing the surface for a more even look?

I don't know - paint has evolved so much in the past 20 years, who's to say anymore. I do remember asking my paint store rep back in '04 with the newer 100% acrylic paints and even 100% acrylic ceiling paint - did that mean we didn't need a primer anymore? At the time she told me just because it's 100% acrylic doesn't give it primer ability - I believed it at the time - but who knows?


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I will agree to disagree Jack, but you do do alot of testing. Gripper is a total other product though. I mean it is a cross between superglue/peelbond/and a wicked fast dry. I personally won't use it on new drywall just for the fact that it is like calling in an air strike from an AC-130 when you are just hunting a deer. Yeah it will work.. but..


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh and I like polyvinyl acetate for primer (pva). That or BIN.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> I know, lots of variables. They become critical at times within the system. It's easy for me to forget what I put into finding certain things out, what works, what doesnt. Those countless product tests and hours figuring things out. But this math below is easy to figure out.
> 
> Labor: Pay 2 guys to prime 2500sq ft house $340 (real example)
> Materials: Primer $260
> ...


But there are added costs as well. More finish paint, more labor for first finish coat over raw drywall, etc.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Dan the paint he is using is primer and paint. The only thing I have against what he is doing is there isn't enough build in two coats of paint. It will show and we all have done repaints in builder specials where the finish is not even a mil thick. 

I did try Behr ultra for the first time last week, and I was impressed especially with the eggshell and semi gloss. It is the best paint I have found that easy to work with. Rule of thumb usually is the better the paint the harder it is to apply.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

That's not true about the primer and paint, Jack is using one paint that is both primer and paint - but he is using other paints that aren't so-called primer/paint and still going over raw drywall. 

I will say this - I had an interior repaint 3 winters ago, and I had this one section of wall that I had to pull out this whole corkbord panel and re-mud a 4'x3' area. It was bottom of the 9th in terms of where this job was - and I no longer allow the 'craftsman' in me override job production - to me, you put 110% effort into a job in doing it right, but when it comes down to the last 1% - you gotta get it done at all costs. So I went over this patch with one coat of finish paint to match the one coat I had already put up - and then painted a second coat over everything.

I'll have to admit - I couldn't tell the difference - but I just chalked it up to luck.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> No question you can get more build with spraying and does use a lot more paint vs direct rolling. I've never compared results between the two methods with the 2 products I mentioned.
> 
> When I walked on this PC's job (below) and saw that horrid prime job I couldnt help but ask why he isnt applying paint direct to the bare drywall. He was like..  He tried to convince me you need a primer. I was like.. :blink: since when, the 80's? There is no way I am going to go through any effort to prime my walls and have them turn out like below. Those pics I posted almost look finished in one coat. He needs to sand the hell out of those walls and apply 2 more coats. Its silly.


That's one nasty-looking wall! It looks like either a lot of sand-throughs (damaging the paper) or the that the walls weren't cleaned before priming. The good news is that it'll always be easy to find the studs.


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## vandy (Apr 22, 2010)

Plainpainter,

What do you really care anyway?
I thought that you weren't concerned about threads like this.
I thought all you cared about for 2011 are business plans, marketing, ROI and profits.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> But there are added costs as well. More finish paint, more labor for first finish coat over raw drywall, etc.


I can see that in certain situations. Not sure direct rolling is consuming that much more on the first coat in comparison to primer. Im sure it is but it must be minimal for me otherwise I might be in total agreement. I'm sure paint (product) plays a roll in that, knowing some paints dont go far at all like CHB for example on the far side of the spectrum, what is that stuff... 200 sq to a gal?. Also, some primers wont go as far as paint on new board, again, product specific.

BEHR ULTRA will likely cost more than the average bucket but the Glidden Professional semi-matte is less than many paints less capable. For example, no way you'll see me spreading 350 or 450 Diamond unless its something sheen specific.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

So JP what line is the pro semi matte you are using? Not diamond?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Gough said:


> That's one nasty-looking wall! It looks like either a lot of sand-throughs (damaging the paper) or the that the walls weren't cleaned before priming. The good news is that it'll always be easy to find the studs.


I guess my point is this.. many primers produce a similar look to that primer photo just not as bad, but its there. SW High Build and a few others do a nice job at hiding sanding scuffs but the equalization in porosity is still the issue. Producing that type of coverage on a wall in 1 coat over bare drywall like those pics is hard to beat in a 2 coat process. It simply looks darn near finished in 1 coat.

I made it a point to throw drywall dust on a wall and rolled over it, it doesn't do anything despite what people think about sanding dust. Same effect when you drop a table spoon of drywall dust in a cup of water. Poof. Actually spent a lot of time debunking that myth and applying masking tape to a roller cover only pulls more fibers loose. 

You can make all the texture with a roller cover you want applying primer, the issue is simply masked by texture. Its not fixed.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> So JP what line is the pro semi matte you are using? Not diamond?


My bad... Ultra Hide. Street price is $19


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> My bad... Ultra Hide. Street price is $19


 And it doesn't soak into mud like other dw primers or paints?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

nEighter said:


> I will agree to disagree Jack, but you do do alot of testing. Gripper is a total other product though. I mean it is a cross between superglue/peelbond/and a wicked fast dry. I personally won't use it on new drywall just for the fact that it is like calling in an air strike from an AC-130 when you are just hunting a deer. Yeah it will work.. but..


haha Ok. Gripper doesn't sand easily. In fact, sanding Gripper ranks up there with things not to do. Gripper is a great product but I feel it lacks in penetration on drywall and bare wood. I typically use Gripper for a bond coat over something previously painted. I hate to say it but Gripper is getting pushed out of my line-up little by little as new products come available.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

A little off topic, but what we run into a lot on renovation work is the tapers sanding out the mud after the final coat and sanding the paper of the sheetrock in the process leaving super fuzzy drywall paper. It has become the state-of- the-art to sand the hell out of the spackle, because the spacklers in my neck of the woods can't get it decent any other way!! Years ago true professional spacklers didn't even carry a piece of sandpaper. It was all done with knives. There was no dust. It was paint ready. Now it's a mess.:cursing:


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

CliffK said:


> A little off topic, but what we run into a lot on renovation work is the tapers sanding out the mud after the final coat and sanding the paper of the sheetrock in the process leaving super fuzzy drywall paper. It has become the state-of- the-art to sand the hell out of the spackle, because the spacklers in my neck of the woods can't get it decent any other way!! Years ago true professional spacklers didn't even carry a piece of sandpaper. It was all done with knives. There was no dust. It was paint ready. Now it's a mess.:cursing:


So true. Tell tale sign of good finishers. Minimal scuffing. Even those guys running sanders on the walls aren't scuffing walls. Thats the difference in workmanship and/or what they use for their top coat. 

I had it out once with a finisher on sanding too much. He didnt like me showing him a better way using different paper to finish. Got the builder involved, big issue. Dude went off! In reality, it was far less work for those guys.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> And it doesn't soak into mud like other dw primers or paints?


It's penetrating enough to stick. I dont have the means to do actual definitive testing on what extent that might be but as you can see in those photos, it leaves a very nice solid 1st coat. For all that penetrating drywall primers do - leaving little build on the surface, you would think they sealed the porosity between mud and board but so many dont. That completely eliminates the very need for such a product when it doesnt do what you expect it to do.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> Aura does that on walls as well, looks almost covered in 1 coat on raw drywall. But, you only get about 275 sq. ft./gallon (rolled application, not sprayed). And, it does not mask the seam to wall board texture difference as well as back rolled primer. Drywall primed rolled goes much further on a sq. ft. basis. Plus the first coat on raw drywall goes much slower than the first coat over primer.
> 
> A lot of variables to keep track of to evaluate the best bang for the buck!


Not only that but that expansive paint doesnt meet MPI #53 for flats. Lets see, $14 MPI approved GPS-1 and GPS-2 or Aura $$ hmmm is that really a tough decision? I dont get Aura. The theory behind its existence.


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

With all due respect, has anyone else noticed there is no head on JP's avatar?

Perception is king. I can't imagine telling a home owner, "Oh no, we don't prime. You see I've done tests." 

"But every painter I've ever talked to, and every book I've ever read, and every DIY website, and every episode of This Old House I've seen has said that you should prime stuff for a good paint job." 

"I'm sorry maam. You have to understand I've rolled glidden on walls and it looked almost done. I'VE DONE TESTS!" 

Primer on new drywall = build, texture, adhesion, decreased material cost, potentially higher labor costs, industry standard for the last forever years

If you can sell not priming more power to you but trying to convince a client that I'm skipping a step everyone else does seems like a pretty difficult place to start a sales pitch - unless you're selling to the cheapest common denominator.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Looking at the MPI, Aura makes it in the eggshell and the extreme green for flat. I am surprised it does not make it in the regular flat. I wish the MPI list gave more info. If you pay for access, do you get a lot more info. on the tests?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Metro. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their method of using drywall primer. What I am doing is showing better results without it and how bad some are and how much unnecessary work is added to the job. 

I'm not going to compromise the surface of the drywall with a drywall primer that does absolutely nothing at equalizing porosity. Not only that but if you can apply masking tape to your primer and pull that primer off. It failed. Plain and simple.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Metro. I don't know how you run your business or how jobs come your way. For me, I come highly recommended. Recommendations like that are possible as a direct result of my TESTING because I provide failsafe solutions for customers. "We don't just promise results. We guarantee them." I'm pretty sure if we were providing solutions that fail, our word of mouth marketing plan would ultimately be a failure too.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

How does MPI rate all the primers that have failed your tests?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> How does MPI rate all the primers that have failed your tests?


Great question. I'll look into that if those test types exist. I do not go by MPI for product selections. Just so happens my top picks had the MPI approval.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Metro M & L said:


> With all due respect, has anyone else noticed there is no head on JP's avatar?


:w00t::lol:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

jack pauhl said:


> Great question. I'll look into that if those test types exist. I do not go by MPI for product selections. Just so happens my top picks had the MPI approval.


I don't blame you. The Master Painters Institute is a fraud...


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Bender said:


> I don't blame you. The Master Painters Institute is a fraud...


Not like we have much to go by otherwise but that is one of those testing methods I would like to see with my own eyes. Lab work vs field work are entirely two different things from my own experiences. I've been surprised a few times.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> So true. Tell tale sign of good finishers. Minimal scuffing. Even those guys running sanders on the walls aren't scuffing walls. Thats the difference in workmanship and/or what they use for their top coat.
> 
> I had it out once with a finisher on sanding too much. He didnt like me showing him a better way using different paper to finish. Got the builder involved, big issue. Dude went off! In reality, it was far less work for those guys.


I want to hear Captsheetrock and 2bucks response...


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## vandy (Apr 22, 2010)

TJ, seriously, your avatar pic makes me smirk every time I see it.:thumbup:


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> Metro. I don't know how you run your business or how jobs come your way. For me, I come highly recommended. Recommendations like that are possible as a direct result of my TESTING because I provide failsafe solutions for customers. "We don't just promise results. We guarantee them." I'm pretty sure if we were providing solutions that fail, our word of mouth marketing plan would ultimately be a failure too.


Hey Jack I was just bustin' chops. I can tell you work your a$$ off to produce great results and just because everyone says it's so doesn't make it so. My hat's off to your testing - i certainly haven't done enough test runs in my time to verify procedure before letting loose with the airless. 

Sorry about the avatar comment, just trying to get some laughs.


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

*Importance of dry time*

If you had a waterborne drywall primer that did the job as well or better than the ones that require overnight dry, but was ready to paint in one hour, would that be an important advantage? Would it be worth an extra $15/gallon?

The reason I ask is that I can make a version of my tannin stain blocking waterborne primer that can dry fast enough to sand and topcoat in one hour. Sanding may not even be necessary, depending on the substrate. It would cost probably about $15/gallon more than regular drywall primer, but would allow the whole job to be done in one day.

As always, I am grateful for the benefit of the accumulated knowledge of the seasoned painting pro.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

H2O Paint Chemist said:


> If you had a waterborne drywall primer that did the job as well or better than the ones that require overnight dry, but was ready to paint in one hour, would that be an important advantage? Would it be worth an extra $15/gallon?
> 
> The reason I ask is that I can make a version of my tannin stain blocking waterborne primer that can dry fast enough to sand and topcoat in one hour. Sanding may not even be necessary, depending on the substrate. It would cost probably about $15/gallon more than regular drywall primer, but would allow the whole job to be done in one day.
> 
> As always, I am grateful for the benefit of the accumulated knowledge of the seasoned painting pro.


Probably not because there are $15 solutions already. If it was $15 more how much would that be approximately?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

What latex wall primer can't you topcoat an hour later?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Some may not sand well, but they are usually dry (or close if you sprayed it, being a thicker, more luxurious coat and all).


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## H2O Paint Chemist (Jan 7, 2010)

plainpainter said:


> What latex wall primer can't you topcoat an hour later?


According to the USG instructional video on how to prime for a level 5 finish, you have to wait 24 hours for their surfacer primer to shrink and dry before topcoating. Mine shrinks and dries in one hour. This would save a day, assuming you could get all the priming done in half a day.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

The problem for me is that job sequence wise, primer on drywall usually sits for at least a couple weeks before I topcoat it. Prime when drywall done, then carpenters come in, then trim gets done, then walls get done.

On a blow and go where they are shooting walls and ceilings before trim is installed and touching up later, maybe this would be helpful. Plus, masking, cleaning and shooting the entire house usually takes up a full day anyway.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

DeanV said:


> The problem for me is that job sequence wise, primer on drywall usually sits for at least a couple weeks before I topcoat it. Prime when drywall done, then carpenters come in, then trim gets done, then walls get done.
> 
> On a blow and go where they are shooting walls and ceilings before trim is installed and touching up later, maybe this would be helpful. Plus, masking, cleaning and shooting the entire house usually takes up a full day anyway.


I'm with Dean... those primer coats sit for a long time before they see paint. Blow and go types, same deal... shoot the primer, turn around pole sand and shoot. Eat lunch then go do another down the block.


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