# Dish Soap to treat mold?



## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey,

I have a goofy question for you. Has anyone ever used Dawn dish soap to clean mold off of cedar siding? The HO in question says he had a chemist come and analize the mold and that is the recommended treatment. I have never heard of this. We brought some along to the job just to have it on site but plan on using Jomax before we oil prime and paint with 2 coats SW super paint. 

I think he paid the chemist too much for this advice.

Here's a picture.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I've never heard that before, but I'm no chemist either so take that for what its worth.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

ProWallGuy said:


> I've never heard that before, but I'm no chemist either so take that for what its worth.


 
I'm no chemist myself. Sounds to me that all the residue and suds foaming from the soap will soak into the cedar and be a bear to clean off.

Thanks for your input.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

I wonder if the chemist was suggesting anti -bacterial dishsoap, which brings it back to a weak bleach solution?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm wondering if the chemist had a stroke and couldn't remember the other two ingrediants to the time honored wash solution - chlorine bleach and TSP. In water, of course. 

Or if the HO did not hear correctly.

You should get the chemist's name and check what he/she said.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

BrushJockey said:


> I wonder if the chemist was suggesting anti -bacterial dishsoap, which brings it back to a weak bleach solution?


 
The HO said plain ole Dawn dish soap. I get what you mean about the anti bacterial part.

Knowing the way this HO operates, I am suprised he didn't have the official chemist report to show me.

He has a lot of $$$ and who are we to argue with the experts? 

At least we'll have a bottle handy for washing coffee cups at the shop.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

daArch said:


> I'm wondering if the chemist had a stroke and couldn't remember the other two ingrediants to the time honored wash solution - chlorine bleach and TSP. In water, of course.
> 
> Or if the HO did not hear correctly.
> 
> You should get the chemist's name and check what he/she said.


I am pretty sure the HO heard correctly. With the way he operates he probably kept the chemist company at the lab while he was testing the mold. 

I'll see what we can find out. In the mean time, we are going to treat it the way we always do with Jomax. Kinda hard to sneak that by though, with the HO on patrol in his motorized Rascal.


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## ParagonVA (Feb 3, 2009)

The HO and his chemist buddy are not painters, bottom line. So, I think you're making the most intelligent decision, go with what you know will get the job done: Jomax. This will get the mold at the root and ensure longevity of the paint job. Your warranty will be better served this way instead of painting over a bunch of soapy residue.

You plan on adding bleach + H2O to the Jomax right?


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Dish soap will do nothing to that neglected beauty.If anything,it needs a strong mixture of bleach to water to clean the siding.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That is the funkiest looking mold I have ever seen on a house. I remember reading a house cleaning recipe from one of the powerwasher websites about Dawn, bleach, and maybe TSP in with it (not sure on the TSP). I really have never used TSP much.

When every I try another house cleaner, I so far have always come back to Jomax+bleach and regret trying something different. There is that new Moldex wash that you add bleach to and the jug looks an awful lot like JoMax, but supposedly Moldex is better are killing mildew and mold on porous surfaces?????


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

no thats standard looking mold. What is jomax though. Its soap. Bleach activator and surfactant. And who has a chemist come test their mold?


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

We typically use Dawn,bleach,tsp


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Whoa, that is what I get for quickly glancing at the picture. I thought the caulk and patching was some funky mold. Nevermind me.

I looked at a job once where they had TWP as the finish on cedar like that and it was all dark, uneven and black, tannin bleed all over the place. Way over due for something to be done. They wanted it recoated but wanted it to stay looking that way ("aged").


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

ParagonVA said:


> The HO and his chemist buddy are not painters, bottom line. So, I think you're making the most intelligent decision, go with what you know will get the job done: Jomax. This will get the mold at the root and ensure longevity of the paint job. Your warranty will be better served this way instead of painting over a bunch of soapy residue.
> 
> You plan on adding bleach + H2O to the Jomax right?


Yup, sorry I didn't include that info. Hopefully the HO won't smell the bleach when we're using it.

Thanks for the reassurance that we are doing the right thing.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

DeanV said:


> That is the funkiest looking mold I have ever seen on a house. I remember reading a house cleaning recipe from one of the powerwasher websites about Dawn, bleach, and maybe TSP in with it (not sure on the TSP). I really have never used TSP much.
> 
> When every I try another house cleaner, I so far have always come back to Jomax+bleach and regret trying something different. There is that new Moldex wash that you add bleach to and the jug looks an awful lot like JoMax, but supposedly Moldex is better are killing mildew and mold on porous surfaces?????


I haven't heard of the Moldex. Is that a Zinsser product? We'll have to give it a try if we can get it on the job before the HO sees.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

get big dawn bottles and empty them, fill with jomax and bleach 
show up on jobsite with lots of dawn.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

tsunamicontract said:


> no thats standard looking mold. What is jomax though. Its soap. Bleach activator and surfactant. And who has a chemist come test their mold?


This guy and his wife are a very interesting couple.

I spent 2 hours with the HO's last fall discussing the painting. 

Then I spent another two hours at a restaurant drinking bad coffee with him and his wife to hear about how they wanted the job run. (been burned by other contractors I guess) 

Then I rode with them to look at exterior paint colors around the area for another couple of hours. Only to have them decide the house they have was too contemporary in style and so could I please give them some help on ways to change it. 

Then I spent 4 hours coming up with a design plan for the exterior including sketches, color board, lighting etc...(I went to school for interior design, sorry) 

Then he wants to beat me up on price for painting a 18 foot RV port. (I was $200 higher than the other painters bid but my numbers were lower on the house, deck and gazebo)

It was very tempting to walk away but he owns a large property mgmt company and we could get a lot more work from him if we can just get through this job.

If only the economy was better...


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

tsunamicontract said:


> get big dawn bottles and empty them, fill with jomax and bleach
> show up on jobsite with lots of dawn.


That's the plan. I kinda like these covert operations.

Hope we don't get caught, seriously. :innocent:


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

You need one of these!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Stick with what you know works. 

http://www.painttalk.com/f9/washing-chemist-2965/


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Yes you "could" get a lot more work from him, or he could be using us just to do his place and gonna use "whoever" to do the rest. (although you already said you were lower)....My .02? NEVER bid a job with the pretense of getting more work. I did that exactly once. It won't happen again. I politely tell them discounts if any apply will be applied to "all the other" work you're promising me if we do this one. Clean with what you know works. You're gonna be the one when it fails on the grill not the chemist. Where is this mystical chemist?? Have you met him? (Apologies if you have).....His credentials in order? They called you because you're a professional. Be one.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

tsunamicontract said:


> You need one of these!


 
Holy cow!! I did not know that dish soap comes in fivers.

That would certainly disguise the jomax bleach smuggling operation.
:thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Don't bother pretending you are using what the wacky chemist said. be up front that you will use tried and proved solutions - tried by PROFESSIONAL PAINTERS and proved for decades. 

I wish I could dredge up the government specs we had to follow when doing the Adams birthplace back in 70-something. Wash the exteriors with TSP, Bleach, and non-ionic detergent (dish soap), rinse, and allow to dry. I'm sure even I tossed them a long time ago. (Take a deep breath and an asprin, PWG, I have thrown out a few things in my life)


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

deach said:


> Yes you "could" get a lot more work from him, or he could be using us just to do his place and gonna use "whoever" to do the rest. (although you already said you were lower)....My .02? NEVER bid a job with the pretense of getting more work. I did that exactly once. It won't happen again. I politely tell them discounts if any apply will be applied to "all the other" work you're promising me if we do this one. Clean with what you know works. You're gonna be the one when it fails on the grill not the chemist. Where is this mystical chemist?? Have you met him? (Apologies if you have).....His credentials in order? They called you because you're a professional. Be one.


Wow, I am not sure if I should be offended. I have been nothing but professional and have expressed my opinions about the whole mold issue.
And given all the extra time I have spent greasing the wheels I feel I have gone above and beyond at this point. And no, not ever do I waver on the price on the pretense of getting more work. I found out after they approved the quote that they could potentially send us more.

I am not the owner of the company I work for. If I were it would be easier for me to handle this situation. Unfortunately all my boss sees is $$$$. 

Basically it is the HO's house and his $$ so I feel we should accomodate him to the best of our abilities. In all seriousness the plan is to use the dawn on an area and then use the Jomax + bleach so he can see the difference for himself. I am sure I can convince him that we need the bleach to help prep for the lighter colors he has finally picked out. That and the fact we will stand by our warranty with the proper application and preparation methods. 

That all being said, I do know that chlorinated bleach does work on topical mold spores but there is some discussion about how long it resists regrowth. So there may be some credence to the HO anti bleach stance. 

No, I have not personally met the chemist. 

As for getting more work from him.....
At this point I am sure it won't be worth it.

And I apologize for coming across as unprofessional.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Painter Girl;73724
And I apologize for coming across as unprofessional.[/quote said:


> :no:


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

daArch said:


> Don't bother pretending you are using what the wacky chemist said. be up front that you will use tried and proved solutions - tried by PROFESSIONAL PAINTERS and proved for decades.
> 
> I wish I could dredge up the government specs we had to follow when doing the Adams birthplace back in 70-something. Wash the exteriors with TSP, Bleach, and non-ionic detergent (dish soap), rinse, and allow to dry. I'm sure even I tossed them a long time ago. (Take a deep breath and an asprin, PWG, I have thrown out a few things in my life)


I really wish we could. However he was so adamant about it that I did not want to ruffle his feathers before we started. Yes I had printed up various literature at one of our meetings to show him about the treatment of mold and the effectiveness of chlorinated bleach in killing the spores.... He was having none of it. 

It seems to me that the more $$ people have, the wackier they get.

De Arch, I wish my husband would throw stuff away once in a while too.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Mold and bacteria are two completely different things. Would you treat an ear infection with Dawn? Would you treat athletes foot with Dawn? Mold is a spore. It has been around for millions of years and thrives when 4 things are in conjunction with each, and optimum: Mold needs 1) Oxygen 2) Moisture 3) Organic Food source 4) surface and air temperature between 40-90 degrees F. When all these things are present, mold spores which invade the air, will attach, thrive and propagate. Poison that will kill mold spores are very hard to get these days as with ear infections in children, mold has become immune to biocides, insecticides, mildewcides etc. Do we use Pennicllan for ear infections these days that cured everything when we were kids, or do we get the most aggressive antibiotic available, and then after 6 months get the tubes installed anyway? The point is, if you remove one of the four elements that give mildew/mold a chance to colonize, you eliminate the problem. How do you do that? First, is the picture you posted actually mildew, or is it the blackening that occurs when cedar is exposed to UV with a transparent or clear stain that breaks down fairly quickly that may contain organic oils? Is this just the result of lignin and cellulose breaking down the same way garden mulch does? Did you test the surface with some fresh bleach to see if there was a reaction, or with some oxyalic acid to see if the surface returned to cedar color? What kind of chemist is this? What familiarity does he/she have with mold spores and their propagation and colonization? What are the effects of bleach on mold spores? Are you aware that Clorox only says that bleach will be effective on "Hard non porous surfaces" and may not be effective on porous surfaces? How can you be sure that if it is mildew, that any of the cleaners on the market have sufficiently killed the mildew including the roots so that a paint film to be applied over it does not feed a dormant spore and contribute to more mildew growing through the film, not on the film? Mildew is not a paint problem, it is a billion dollar industry. The common mildew we see in the northeast is aspirillius niger, although there are thousands of permutations of mildew. Informing your customer that every effort will be made to treat and destroy the mildew, and in addition, remove the dead wood fibers that have accumulated on the cedar siding,(organic matter) and a coating system will be installed that will give you the very best aesthetics and long term durability based on the aesthetics that you desire. Clears do not perform like opaque coatings, so we may be back to maintain your home in two years, and will perform annual maintenance to optimize your aesthetic preference. However, mildew is a product of the environment, it is constantly in the air, and if you want a natural look, we will have to fool the cedar into thinking that it is not exposed to the elements. The Newspaper posts the mold spore count everyday for all us allergy sufferers. Wood, paint, and all exterior surfaces including vinyl siding do not read the newspaper everyday, they only respond to what is in the air. Hope that helps.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NACE

Very nice post.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

NACE said:


> Mold and bacteria are two completely different things. Would you treat an ear infection with Dawn? Would you treat athletes foot with Dawn? Mold is a spore. It has been around for millions of years and thrives when 4 things are in conjunction with each, and optimum: Mold needs 1) Oxygen 2) Moisture 3) Organic Food source 4) surface and air temperature between 40-90 degrees F. When all these things are present, mold spores which invade the air, will attach, thrive and propagate. Poison that will kill mold spores are very hard to get these days as with ear infections in children, mold has become immune to biocides, insecticides, mildewcides etc. Do we use Pennicllan for ear infections these days that cured everything when we were kids, or do we get the most aggressive antibiotic available, and then after 6 months get the tubes installed anyway? The point is, if you remove one of the four elements that give mildew/mold a chance to colonize, you eliminate the problem. How do you do that? First, is the picture you posted actually mildew, or is it the blackening that occurs when cedar is exposed to UV with a transparent or clear stain that breaks down fairly quickly that may contain organic oils? Is this just the result of lignin and cellulose breaking down the same way garden mulch does? Did you test the surface with some fresh bleach to see if there was a reaction, or with some oxyalic acid to see if the surface returned to cedar color? What kind of chemist is this? What familiarity does he/she have with mold spores and their propagation and colonization? What are the effects of bleach on mold spores? Are you aware that Clorox only says that bleach will be effective on "Hard non porous surfaces" and may not be effective on porous surfaces? How can you be sure that if it is mildew, that any of the cleaners on the market have sufficiently killed the mildew including the roots so that a paint film to be applied over it does not feed a dormant spore and contribute to more mildew growing through the film, not on the film? Mildew is not a paint problem, it is a billion dollar industry. The common mildew we see in the northeast is aspirillius niger, although there are thousands of permutations of mildew. Informing your customer that every effort will be made to treat and destroy the mildew, and in addition, remove the dead wood fibers that have accumulated on the cedar siding,(organic matter) and a coating system will be installed that will give you the very best aesthetics and long term durability based on the aesthetics that you desire. Clears do not perform like opaque coatings, so we may be back to maintain your home in two years, and will perform annual maintenance to optimize your aesthetic preference. However, mildew is a product of the environment, it is constantly in the air, and if you want a natural look, we will have to fool the cedar into thinking that it is not exposed to the elements. The Newspaper posts the mold spore count everyday for all us allergy sufferers. Wood, paint, and all exterior surfaces including vinyl siding do not read the newspaper everyday, they only respond to what is in the air. Hope that helps.


 
Thank you. I will print this out and show it to him. However the plan is to apply primer and paint instead of a clear. I really wish I had the chemist report from the HO. I am sure that the tannin bleed is a factor as well. It is difficult to see in the one picture I posted but mold is definitely present on other areas of the house and deck as well. The property sits right on the river with a small bayou only 40 feet away from the house.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Be sure to include that the oil primer will be the ideal breeding ground for any spores not properly eliminated.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Painter Girl said:


> Wow, I am not sure if I should be offended. I have been nothing but professional and have expressed my opinions about the whole mold issue.
> And given all the extra time I have spent greasing the wheels I feel I have gone above and beyond at this point. And no, not ever do I waver on the price on the pretense of getting more work. I found out after they approved the quote that they could potentially send us more.
> 
> I am not the owner of the company I work for. If I were it would be easier for me to handle this situation. Unfortunately all my boss sees is $$$$.
> ...


Offending you was not my intention and if it came across like that I apologize. Too often home owners try to make professionals do things "their way". While I understand he's paying you to do a job, hopefully somewhere in there is the fact you're "professional" or he'd be doing it. (or maybe he and his chemist)..

Also my comments were more directed at the owner of the company. Apparently it's up to the owner here how to proceed and I realize you may or may not be able to get your input in there. Owners can be difficult, ask my daughter. :yes: Again I meant absolutely no offense, I've seen examples of your work and it's top notch. (some interior pics you posted a while back, honestly I thought they were awesome).....anyway Yes please take Nace's post with you and see if you can get r done right. Good Luck!


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

deach said:


> Offending you was not my intention and if it came across like that I apologize.


PG, I did not take Deach's comments to be accusing you of unprofessionalism, for what thats worth.

But yah, we are the professional coating applicators. You wouldn't necessarily even want the paint chemists applying coatings in real world situations either would you?


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Be sure to include that the oil primer will be the ideal breeding ground for any spores not properly eliminated.


 
Good point, thanks.


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## Painter Girl (Mar 25, 2009)

deach said:


> Offending you was not my intention and if it came across like that I apologize. Too often home owners try to make professionals do things "their way". While I understand he's paying you to do a job, hopefully somewhere in there is the fact you're "professional" or he'd be doing it. (or maybe he and his chemist)..
> 
> Also my comments were more directed at the owner of the company. Apparently it's up to the owner here how to proceed and I realize you may or may not be able to get your input in there. Owners can be difficult, ask my daughter. :yes: Again I meant absolutely no offense, I've seen examples of your work and it's top notch. (some interior pics you posted a while back, honestly I thought they were awesome).....anyway Yes please take Nace's post with you and see if you can get r done right. Good Luck!


Thank you. I did not want anyone to misconstrue my earlier posts as unprofessional. I really enjoy the feedback from everyone and the humor that a lot of you put in your posts. It's nice to know you have your daughter working with you. Who better than family to understand the importance of doing a good job for the benefit of the business. 

I am hoping to post some more pics of the project as it develops.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

Thanks PG....ya actually, both my daughters work for me. One is only part time lives some distance away and comes up on her three days off on her other job. (or we try to book work there). I wouldn't take anything for my girls. My son works for us on weekends and he's priceless too. 

Please post the pics so we can see how it's going. Again, Good Luck!!!


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## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

See now last fall i tried Jomax and water, I got a much better result from bleach tsp and water with simple green added.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

NACE how did you learn so much about every facet of coatings and application?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

NANCE,

Good post. I wish I were still painting 'cause I'd add that little piece in my "packet"


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

I would not use Chlorine when cleaning cedar siding. That siding needs to be restored properly and chlorine/bleach would only degrade the wood fibers. 

You need to find a dedicated cleaner/stripper and pH balancing agent to stop the action of stripping. Use low pressure. I always employ a zero orfice tip like 25 or 40 to rinse after I apply.

As far as Dawn goes. It is used as a clinging agent. Imagine trtying to apply thin SH or Bleach to the siding or surface to be cleaned. It would slide down the house without any effect.

I know all of this from doing power washing the wrong way as a uninformed painter and now have seen the light after putting into practice what I have been taught.

Any questions I will be more than happy to help with.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

tsunamicontract said:


> NACE how did you learn so much about every facet of coatings and application?


40+ years in the business. Owned and operated a crew for 15 years, 25 years selling in the residential, commercial, and industrial coatings business. Making every attempt to find a solution for every customer's problem in the name of great quality and service in a very affluent market. Read Read Read! Plus I test and use every single product so I speak from experience and not as a sales person.


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## deach (May 11, 2008)

I'll tell ya, that bleach debate has been going on for years and years now that I'm aware of. Use it, don't use it use a little use a lot use stripper, use brightner, use this use that. Bottom line is this. Each situation calls for a different (dare I say the word) "chemical" formulation to get iti cleaned up and ready to repaint/restain. Whole lot of difference between power washing and prepping for a repaint/restain. While I do agree that "high pressure" (insert your psi figure here) should not be used on wood, sometimes "some pressure" (again insert your psi figure here) is helpful to remove the dead fibers. 

Damn Nace you must be older than I am. Way to go buddy keep at it, I know it's probably the only thing that keeps me going...


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## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

Nace i just re read your post awesome post i never knew i have just always been told by my former boss to use this and it seemed to work now you have shown me a whole different perspective. thanks

Matt


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