# Armstrong Stain



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Anybody using this stuff?

I redid my front porch deck and mudroom door with it this weekend. I like. 

I am constantly on the lookout for better exterior stains. Its not a market that manufacturers for the most part are putting a bunch of money into these days, with noteable exceptions like Arborcoat, which we are also running pretty hard on a job right now.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Oops, dont want any stiff necks out here


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I use it exclusively, but it has major, major, major issues with it. Looking for something else.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I hate major major major issues!


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Please let me know I am starting to use it 
As well . The smell is bad . High dollar the semi solid is really hard to get . Semi Transparent here in Austin is 44 a gallon the semi solid plus shipping would around 75.... I bit when all said and done .


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Ya, major, major, major issues suck, even worse is major, major, major, MAJOR issues. 

Scot would love to see a review in the performance of the application. I'm not sure if it's even available in this wonderful VOC compliant state.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Ya, major, major, major issues suck, even worse is major, major, major, MAJOR issues.
> 
> Scot would love to see a review in the performance of the application. I'm not sure if it's even available in this wonderful VOC compliant state.


It's a VOC compliant stain - and application is as easy as it comes. The problem is that it turns black from mildew - and worse even a weak bleach cleaning solution strips the stain right off, so you can't even remove the mildew without removing the stain itself. And when I say mildew, I mean it can turn black on you in as little as 4 months. And it doesn't dry at all on hardwoods, except for certain strains of mahogany. But if you have an ipe or a teak, especially with a roof - it will need 3+ weeks to dry out. This stain is perfect for highly arid, hot climates. If you live in a part of the country with precipitation/mildew/snow - you will have problems/issues.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Ya, major, major, major issues suck, even worse is major, major, major, MAJOR issues.
> 
> Scot would love to see a review in the performance of the application. I'm not sure if it's even available in this wonderful VOC compliant state.


What's funnier - is that it's a California based company!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> What's funnier - is that it's a California based company!


I never even heard of the stain, so wouldn't know. But it sound like it has major problems, did you have your rep check out your issues.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I never even heard of the stain, so wouldn't know. But it sound like it has major problems, did you have your rep check out your issues.


I went straight to the CEO/Owner of the company and told him my thoughts over the phone - and I am not the only one. I am modifying it now, I don't use it straight of the can - all of which adds to the final cost of using the product. I don't think they will implement any changes anytime soon. I think the benefits they advertise of ease of application is not compatible with resisting mildew. In order to deliver on one feature - you have to lose another. 

I have a theory behind my modifications - but of course it needs a full year's time to find out if it is achieving anything. In the meantime I am wondering why I have to be the chemist trying to figure out how to improve a product.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Uh oh, sounds like Scott is going to have an unhappy homeowner!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

RCP said:


> Uh oh, sounds like Scott is going to have an unhappy homeowner!


Scott is the homeowner, duhhhh. He'll find out first hand what I am talking about.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Being a California based company as you say it is. I'm not surprised it doesn't have the moldicide to fight the mold the east and central states deal with. You may not be their market, as I in Cali. haven't experienced the extreme mold as you have. I know paint manufactures deal with tougher regs than any other state, their hands might be tied.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Results may vary. This is Armstrong after two years and a quick bleach wash. It is a true oil and puts to shame pretty much everything commercially available. I do a few more decks than Dan does and have not had any major issues.. let alone major, major major ones. Its a good product but it definitely isn't cheap. I prefer non VOC (compliant) products but they are short lived in terms of availability. Armstrong is very easy to apply, doesn't lap and has a great amount of transoxide pigments (though they have recently started adding some earth pigments to their new colors). the support from the manufacturer is top notch.


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## TERRY365PAINTER (Jul 26, 2009)

Well I really don't think this problem with the stain is going to apply to me . Unless the theirs a huge canopy of trees or lots of moisture around a curtain job . But Texas ! We need rain ! Omg triple digits all next week too .


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ken, mine looks like yours, I must have washed it correctly! lol

By the way, I checked the specs, and they do show mildewcide. One of the most misunderstood aspects of penetrating oils is that they can be a breeding ground for mildew, especially when over applied, which the can cautions against. It is easy to over apply on dense hardwoods. I saturated my pt this morning, and I could go walk on it right now. 

I cant tell you how many people have told me that their penofin turned black. Sure, you can make it turn black. You can make any penetrator go black by over applying. 

To Dan's point on not being able to clean mildew without stripping, I could care less because in many cases I strip as a matter of course, and I believe Ken has a similar approach. There are only certain product and species combos where I dont feel inclined to routinely strip. 

Further, like Ken, transoxides rock in terms of richness of tone. There is nothing like it. To make a crap, abused pt deck look good is impressive.

I also did my fir mudroom door exterior with it, same strip/neutralization prep. It looks dynamite. I'd be happy to post that if anyone is interested.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Here is another deck, 2 years old, direct sun, post maintenance clean. Neither deck had mold issues and held color well. And neither of these two decks pictured had a maintenance coat of stain applied. Bother were given a very light coat on the horizontals and looked freshly done again.

PS: Its still beading water


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't do anywhere near as many decks as Ken, but I do have issues and I am not the only one. Here is my front porch 6-7 months after application. It was the second time I stained it after it had done this the first time in as little as 4 months. A 'weak' bleach clean knocked it off. And has been an issue with each customer deck I have done a maintenance clean, any solution not strong enough to wipe off the finish doesn't clean the mildew off either. I have found something other than bleach that gives ok results, but still isn't ideal.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

And here is the maintenance wash I performed not using bleach as the cleaner. As you can see I spread this cleaner equally over the entire floorboards and underneath where the mat was, it didn't affect the integrity of the finish underneath the mat - so the lightened area is where the breakdown of A.C. occurred on it's own and had nothing to do with being stripped by me this time. 

@Scott, I care very much to cleaning a finish and not having it breakdown - if the finish is black at the one year mark, or in my case 4 months - you have to clean it for the customer and have it look nice. Stripping is when they elect to have it done at the end of 2 years. 

At this point, if you haven't had an issue - it's because either you are lucky, or I got a bum pail.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> And here is the maintenance wash I performed not using bleach as the cleaner. As you can see I spread this cleaner equally over the entire floorboards and underneath where the mat was, it didn't affect the integrity of the finish underneath the mat - so the lightened area is where the breakdown of A.C. occurred on it's own and had nothing to do with being stripped by me this time.
> 
> @Scott, I care very much to cleaning a finish and not having it breakdown - if the finish is black at the one year mark, or in my case 4 months - you have to clean it for the customer and have it look nice. Stripping is when they elect to have it done at the end of 2 years.
> 
> At this point, if you haven't had an issue - it's because either you are lucky, or I got a bum pail.


Dan

My customers arent concerned with what I am cleaning with. All they care about is that we came, washed and put a maintenance coat on the deck. We do pt decks every two years and all others annually.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Scott, I didn't think there wasn't any mildewcide only the amount of it. I know regs here have limited it. If I were to add those packets, the product would be non compliant. 

I agree on the prep, that was my 1st thought to dans post, but then again I have never used the product.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> My customers arent concerned with what I am cleaning with. All they care about is that we came, washed and put a maintenance coat on the deck. We do pt decks every two years and all others annually.


IF your decks are going to turn black in as little as 4-6 months - folks aren't gonna wait around for the two year mark - they're gonna call your a$$ back up to fix the problem immediately. And they ain't gonna pay for it either! 

Be forewarned - use the product at your own peril - you want to think it's the bees knees - go right ahead. This product does not last under any kind of adversity. I like everything about the product, right up to the moment I collect the check. If I give it a one year maintenance wash and I can't remove the mildew or step up the cleaners in order to remove the mildew at the cost of removing the finish a year ahead of the plan - then that's not good.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> IF your decks are going to turn black in as little as 4-6 months - folks aren't gonna wait around for the two year mark - they're gonna call your a$$ back up to fix the problem immediately. And they ain't gonna pay for it either!
> 
> Be forewarned - use the product at your own peril - you want to think it's the bees knees - go right ahead. This product does not last under any kind of adversity. I like everything about the product, right up to the moment I collect the check. If I give it a one year maintenance wash and I can't remove the mildew or step up the cleaners in order to remove the mildew at the cost of removing the finish a year ahead of the plan - then that's not good.


How do you explain Ken's two year mark photos?I consider him a reliable source.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Scott, I didn't think there wasn't any mildewcide only the amount of it. I know regs here have limited it. If I were to add those packets, the product would be non compliant.
> 
> I agree on the prep, that was my 1st thought to dans post, but then again I have never used the product.


 
I know more about how to prep a deck than Scott does. I can formulate my own cleaners for christ's sake. It isn't a prep issue. I don't think much of Scott's opinions on decks - he clearly can't even see the black death stains in his own fir restoration pics.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> How do you explain Ken's two year mark photos?I consider him a reliable source.


Well, you can ask Ken in private for more answers. Talk to Diamond Jim, he'll tell you the exact same thing happened to him in Connecticut. Or heck even Celeste experience in the Carolinas.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> How do you explain Ken's two year mark photos?I consider him a reliable source.


In this case it isn't logical to single out the one success to disprove what I said, the exception doesn't prove the rule.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I am trying to be fair and honest. I don't think Armstrong is the be-all-end-all. I also don't like bashing small companies without tons of personal data. My experience with A/C has been overall positive but not without some issues. It is a softer finish than I would like. But then again, that applies to all VOC compliant, oil based deck coatings. My go-to sealer is not Armstrong but I do offer it as an upgrade for those seeking VOC compliant products that will stay VOC compliant in all states for a long time.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> In this case it isn't logical to single out the one success to disprove what I said, the exception doesn't prove the rule.


Dan, I posted two decks. To give you a more generalized cross-sectional reference, I have it on maybe 250 decks. There have been failures but in percentage, no more so than any other product I have used outside of Baker's, including Ready Seal, Wood Tux, everything commercially available from Penofin, to Messmers to Deckscapes (the latter three being the highest failure rates)


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Which is the best overall product you have used Ken?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I know more about how to prep a deck than Scott does. I can formulate my own cleaners for christ's sake. It isn't a prep issue. I don't think much of Scott's opinions on decks - he clearly can't even see the black death stains in his own fir restoration pics.


Aww Dan


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> Dan, I posted two decks. To give you a more generalized cross-sectional reference, I have it on maybe 250 decks. There have been failures but in percentage, no more so than any other product I have used outside of Baker's, including Ready Seal, Wood Tux, everything commercially available from Penofin, to Messmers to Deckscapes (the latter three being the highest failure rates)


We also don't live in the identical climate or have the identical flora. Buyer beware, for my smaller but still viable sample space - it has probably the worst failures of any stain I have ever used, and I think it's worse than woodtux. If anything I think I may have abandoned woodtux prematurely as I was judging it's performance on Fir decks, what I now know about Fir - I wouldn't judge it like that again. I cannot offer it as a VOC friendly option, because by the time I get done with it - it's probably not any longer VOC compliant.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm just excited to finally see a picture from Dan.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Aww Dan


It's not my fault you put up a god awful picture of restored fir and passed it off as nice, here is the link http://topcoatreview.com/2011/06/22/fir-porch-floor-restoration/

Althought the picture I am talking about the one with the step but after being cleaned has been removed - that one had a huge black area of fir death.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Which is the best overall product you have used Ken?


Since I cannot get Tambasco's Frankenstain :jester:around here, I like to use Baker's Gray Away.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I'm just excited to finally see a picture from Dan.


Here is a fir deck I restored, then stained with DEFY to get away from oil and that failed immediately {thanks Defy} and stripped that off and sanded it back down again.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> It's not my fault you put up a god awful picture of restored fir and passed it off as nice, here is the link http://topcoatreview.com/2011/06/22/fir-porch-floor-restoration/
> 
> Althought the picture I am talking about the one with the step but after being cleaned has been removed - that one had a huge black area of fir death.


Sorry Dan, no pictures have been removed from my blog. 

I am sure you know more than me, about everything. You are like a sports commentator who has never played the sport! 

Its all good though. The thread was about Armstrong, and you voiced your opinion, which I appreciate.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

IDK about longevity, but that fir deck was one of the best looking decks I have seen in a long time. It made it look like Brazilian cherry.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> IDK about longevity, but that fir deck was one of the best looking decks I have seen in a long time. It made it look like Brazilian cherry.


It has a roof over it, so exposure should be limited. It just hadnt been done in many years by the time we got the account.

The perimeter step and stairs are all dark ipe, which may be causing Dan some confusion.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

And here is the deck from another angle, restored once, then applied Defy extreme stain which turned to to be a total failure on Fir - the stripped again, sanded to the point I removed 95% of the Defy stain. And then coated with the only thing that should go over Fir - Solid deck stain, of the latex variety.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Thats a shame, Dan, that the product failed you. Fir is such a pretty wood.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> It has a roof over it, so exposure should be limited. It just hadnt been done in many years by the time we got the account.
> 
> The perimeter step and stairs are all dark ipe, which may be causing Dan some confusion.


I reloaded the page and the photo is now there, it's the one where you see a step before and after - I am talking about the Fir decking not the step tread. I know fir intimately - there is a huge area of black that doesn't come out with normal deck restoration procedure.

Guys might look at those pics and think it looks nice, but I have a trained eye and can tell that deck looks ugly up close. I'll find a pic to post to show what I mean.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Thats a shame, Dan, that the product failed you. Fir is such a pretty wood.


It may be pretty, but it's not useable in the outdoors. The product didn't fail, it was incompatible with the wood. Another thing the manufacturers won't tell you, is that Fir is really a hardwood, it's as dense as ipe when it comes to absorbing any stain.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

You have alot of knowledge and experience that no one else has, Dan. We must get that to start converting profits for you!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> It may be pretty, but it's not useable in the outdoors. The product didn't fail, it was incompatible with the wood. Another thing the manufacturers won't tell you, is that Fir is really a hardwood, it's as dense as ipe when it comes to absorbing any stain.


Really? I have never seen carpenters have to predrill and counterbore to fasten it. And when you throw it in water it doesnt sink like ipe. Thats interesting. I definitely believe you.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> You have alot of knowledge and experience that no one else has, Dan. We must get that to start converting profits for you!


I am profitable with decks, it's one of the very few things I am profitable with. Probably because I can't stand doing it.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I am profitable with decks, it's one of the very few things I am profitable with. Probably because I can't stand doing it.


Heck, I'd call you an expert! Nice to see pics of your work. It looks flawless.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Really? I have never seen carpenters have to predrill and counterbore to fasten it. And when you throw it in water it doesnt sink like ipe. Thats interesting. I definitely believe you.


You don't have to belive me, try brushing on defy extreme stain next time - do it one board at a time - do it in the shade. There results will be unchanged, what you will have is zero penetration, instant lap marks with every brush stroke - and a goobery sticky deck. Defy sinks into pressure treated with no issues - and I know for a fact that southern yellow pine is considered a hardwood, and it's much harder than that. Don't let it's lightness trick you - Fir is evil. Probably should be bleach cleaned and left alone to grey out is the best course of action.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Heck, I'd call you an expert! Nice to see pics of your work. It looks flawless.


It looks flawless, because I am covering it with a solid - that's the only thing you should do with crappy fir.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> You don't have to belive me, try brushing on defy extreme stain next time - do it one board at a time - do it in the shade. There results will be unchanged, what you will have is zero penetration, instant lap marks with every brush stroke - and a goobery sticky deck. Defy sinks into pressure treated with no issues - and I know for a fact that southern yellow pine is considered a hardwood, and it's much harder than that. Don't let it's lightness trick you - Fir is evil. Probably should be bleach cleaned and left alone to grey out is the best course of action.


Dan

You have a tendency to draw global conclusions from one situation. Just because one marginal product doesnt perform on a species of wood is not sufficient evidence to conclude that the species is poor. 

I dont like putting solids on decks. And, there is just about nothing that pt won't hold. I do very little pt, though. Its mostly ipe, mahogany, cambara, garrapa, cedar, and, yes, fir. 

In any event, good thought-provoking stuff in this thread. Thanks to all who have participated.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> You have a tendency to draw global conclusions from one situation. Just because one marginal product doesnt perform on a species of wood is not sufficient evidence to conclude that the species is poor.
> 
> ...


How do you know I am drawing conclusions based upon one situation? My thoughts on fir go back to 2006 - it wasn't until this spring, after 5 years from my initial experience with fir and the dozens of fir decks in between, did my opinion finally congeal. 

Scott, you have a great business and all - but you present certain things badly, and you are dead wrong on fir. You tend to have ideal situations that aren't reality for most contractors. if anyone cares to listen, if you don't have experience with Fir - it will kill you and it will kill your reputation. I can get fir to restore perfectly - I have a process for doing it - but it's dangerous as hell, and I can restore 8 other decks with the same labor it takes to restore just one fir deck. And I have yet to see any oil based product have any life on fir whatsoever. I am not only looking at my own work, I am also leveraging the experience of others - for too many years I was quick to say a contractor was inexperienced, did bad prep, or used a shoddy product. Absolutely nothing of any oil base I have seen works on fir - it has the most disgusting failure profile. The last and final straw was seeing how badly even sikkens was performing on Fir, newly installed fir. I even perhaps unfairly stopped using woodtux because of my experience on fir.

But for all others here, you come across an aged fir deck to restore - good luck if you never did it before - and hope to god the customer is blind as a bat.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> How do you know I am drawing conclusions based upon one situation?


Because you referred a few times to how Defy stain failed on you. I can't imagine you would have used it more than once if that was the case. I dont question your body of work or knowledge. I am sure your opinions are based on first hand experience with this stuff. Your points are well taken. 

Btw, the fir restoration I did was a very typical high end residential porch. It was about as real world as you can get. I am pleased to report that it looks great and the customer could not be happier. That is not to say that its as perfect as a brand new fir deck would be, but that is just not the nature of wood restoration. We just get it as good as it can be, using best practices and products. 

This has been a great thread. I only started it because I have had a can of Armstrong that they comped me sitting in the shop for a while and finally got around to doing my deck and had a chance to do it. I will now be standing there every night waiting for it to turn black. I will keep you all posted on how it does.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Here is the picture of your own blog, Scott of Fir you just restore - I put in two arrows to show the areas I am talking about - most guys here have no experience with Fir and don't know. But these areas will look black as coal when the deck is dried and stained and looks disgusting.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I disagree, and the difference in coloration is what really gives wood its character and beauty. If you want it all to look the same install composite decking.

Does this prefinished Brazilian cherry look disgusting because of the variations?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I disagree, and the difference in coloration is what really gives wood its character and beauty. If you want it all to look the same install composite decking.


Do you have a legitimate opinion on this? Have you been on a fir deck restoration with the homeowner wondering why their deck still looks like it has a ton of black mildew after you just restored it? Nobody so far has been happy with the difference in coloration - this goes way beyond difference in coloration. It looks like you stained over a heap of mildew.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Here is the picture of your own blog, Scott of Fir you just restore - I put in two arrows to show the areas I am talking about - most guys here have no experience with Fir and don't know. But these areas will look black as coal when the deck is dried and stained and looks disgusting.


That is a progress picture. I was on the pump sprayer that day. Todd (on the other end of the deck) was on the wand. The picture shows the stripper being rinsed. After that, brightener was applied and reapplied as needed until it held a good saturation in the wood. The areas you arrowed out actually mellowed pretty well in the final finish. But I definitely understand your concern about the dark areas. It didnt turn out to be an issue when all was said and done. It helped alot that the fir had been so grimy for so many years, and had so much grain color diversity after cleaning, that homeowner was just really psyched to have it looking so rich. I dont say that to discount your concerns, just to share the outcome, which was favorable for all involved. We have the deck in our maintenance program now, so it will be easy to track its performance. I'm sure I'll keep everyone posted on how it does, good or bad.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I disagree, and the difference in coloration is what really gives wood its character and beauty. If you want it all to look the same install composite decking.
> 
> Does this prefinished Brazilian cherry look disgusting because of the variations?


You must be a wood lover 

:jester:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> I disagree, and the difference in coloration is what really gives wood its character and beauty. If you want it all to look the same install composite decking.
> 
> Does this prefinished Brazilian cherry look disgusting because of the variations?


It doesn't look like it has mildew, you obviously don't know what I am talking about. That's what I am saying, most guys here have zero comprehension about fir decking. I will break out some closeups and you tell me if you still like the variation in color.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Do you have a legitimate opinion on this? Have you been on a fir deck restoration with the homeowner wondering why their deck still looks like it has a ton of black mildew after you just restored it? Nobody so far has been happy with the difference in coloration - this goes way beyond difference in coloration. It looks like you stained over a heap of mildew.


Dan you need to work on dealing with your customers. I refinish wood all the time, and it seems you have to set expectations better. You restored the wood to its original state with a protective coating applied. If they want the darker wood to be gone tell them it would have to be replaced. 

I run into this often refinishing hardwood floors where pet urine has permanently stained the floor. Its do the best you can to minimize the stain or replace the effected areas.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> Dan you need to work on dealing with your customers. I refinish wood all the time, and it seems you have to set expectations better. You restored the wood to its original state with a protective coating applied. If they want the darker wood to be gone tell them it would have to be replaced.
> 
> I run into this often refinishing hardwood floors where pet urine has permanently stained the floor. Its do the best you can to minimize the stain or replace the effected areas.


Fir has an endemic problem, my problems have been solved when I first told people two months ago that I no longer restore fir. Good riddance. Unless they want me to put a solid stain over it of course - and even then I am not so sure.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Fir has an endemic problem, my problems have been solved when I first told people two months ago that I no longer restore fir. Good riddance. Unless they want me to put a solid stain over it of course - and even then I am not so sure.


Fir is not for everyone - customers or contractors. I do think its important to put it on a maintenance plan. If I was trying to sell it as a 2-5 year performer, I would probably take your approach. If the customer is into having it be natural for its beauty, we will do the best we can in process and product to create that for them. Doesnt make it wrong or right, its just what people want. I like natural wood, so I am game.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> You must be a wood lover
> 
> :jester:


I believe you call it wood snob. :thumbsup:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Fir is not for everyone - customers or contractors. I do think its important to put it on a maintenance plan. If I was trying to sell it as a 2-5 year performer, I would probably take your approach. If the customer is into having it be natural for its beauty, we will do the best we can in process and product to create that for them. Doesnt make it wrong or right, its just what people want. I like natural wood, so I am game.


 
No amount of education I have found can make a homeowner ready for the results. I have one A.C. client with my frankenstain modifications that has reported back the blackness has subsided - I will be taking a look in august and keeping track over the next two years. But until that experiment is over, it's hands off from now on. I know what it takes to remove the black, and it's dangerous, costly, and frankly just not interested. The way I see it, homewners are screwed. I might consider a dark semisolid that would help to cover the results. but that's it.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> No amount of education I have found can make a homeowner ready for the results. I have one A.C. client with my frankenstain modifications that has reported back the blackness has subsided - I will be taking a look in august and keeping track over the next two years. But until that experiment is over, it's hands off from now on. I know what it takes to remove the black, and it's dangerous, costly, and frankly just not interested. The way I see it, homewners are screwed. I might consider a dark semisolid that would help to cover the results. but that's it.


Case closed on fir.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Who the f'ck really has time to track a friggin deck over the next two years?

Are you getting paid for that Dan?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Who the f'ck really has time to track a friggin deck over the next two years?
> 
> Are you getting paid for that Dan?


You know how sometimes you get something stuck in your head and you just CAN"T stop thinking about it? :blink:


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> You know how sometimes you get something stuck in your head and you just CAN"T stop thinking about it? :blink:


Like cake?


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Like cake?


Or happy endings?


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Or happy endings?


When you havent had a happy ending is a while you think alot about cake.


----------



## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> When you havent had a happy ending is a while you think alot about cake.


I think about peach pie


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> When you havent had a happy ending is a while you think alot about cake.


Yes.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

So I have a fir deck a client wants me to clean coming up...


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

straight_lines said:


> So I have a fir deck a client wants me to clean coming up...


Did you not hear a thing Dan said? No more fir. Fir is for the uninitiated.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I know more about how to prep a deck than Scott does. I can formulate my own cleaners for christ's sake. It isn't a prep issue.


 Isn't this your video,I think the stain failed due to improper cleaning, remember after all prep. is the key for a long lasting job.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Yikers.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Fir has an endemic problem, my problems have been solved when I first told people two months ago that I no longer restore fir. Good riddance. Unless they want me to put a solid stain over it of course - and even then I am not so sure.


 
What typers of fir have you restored and was the outcome of each different when you restored it? I always thought fir was a soft wood. Maybe its the resin in the wood itself that causes such havoc? The only thing that can be done if there are problems is sell the restore as a ipe type restoration. Maybe the longevity of the restoration is something that people just have to live with. Pretty sad though considering how less expensive it is that ipe.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> Isn't this your video,I think the stain failed due to improper cleaning, remember after all prep. is the key for a long lasting job.
> 
> ‪Timber Oil Crap‬‏ - YouTube


 
Oh - your're one of those dumb phucks that keeps leaving inane messages on my page. Keep your nose out of things that you have no clue on. That's a product y ou have no idea about - it shares the same name with a product you know - but isn't the same things. You should be so lucky to be able to prep a deck to the level I prep - that deck also pictured below for your low IQ azz to appreciate is 20 yrs old in this picture. In the video that was at a point where it had received two intial coats and maintenance coat a year later - and I was showing how the coating after two years has no substance to it.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

4ThGeneration said:


> What typers of fir have you restored and was the outcome of each different when you restored it? I always thought fir was a soft wood. Maybe its the resin in the wood itself that causes such havoc? The only thing that can be done if there are problems is sell the restore as a ipe type restoration. Maybe the longevity of the restoration is something that people just have to live with. Pretty sad though considering how less expensive it is that ipe.


I no longer want to expand on this - be my guest and restore fir, you'll see first hand what I have come across. I will say this, it was the wood of choice for porch decking long before pressure treated existed - I think it has something to do with the amount of tannins it has - it seems unlimited at times.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Oh - your're one of those dumb phucks that keeps leaving inane messages on my page. Keep your nose out of things that you have no clue on. That's a product y ou have no idea about - it shares the same name with a product you know - but isn't the same things. You should be so lucky to be able to prep a deck to the level I prep - that deck also pictured below for your low IQ azz to appreciate is 20 yrs old in this picture. In the video that was at a point where it had received two intial coats and maintenance coat a year later - and I was showing how the coating after two years has no substance to it.


 Sign In or Sign Up now to post a comment! 



 It seems like your problem has more to do with people taking pieces of wood and scraping your deck than oil. I say keep those people away, and﻿ your deck should do OK. 


usmelly 1 week ago 

 Listen dumb asses, I am not talking about Cabot's ATO - this is a product from﻿ a different company - I said parafinnic oil, ATO is a drying oil product - the opposite of parafinnic.


plainpainter 2 weeks ago 

 Really! I have﻿ used Cabot's Timber oil with great success. I'll bet you applied it to dirty or moisture soaked wood. Maybe next time you should prep the decking properly before you complain!


fitzgr8 2 weeks ago 

 WTF? One minute of scratching wood with a stick? Exactly what were you﻿ trying to do? Start a fire?


ccfore 1 month ago 

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

God must love dumbasses - he made so god damn many of them


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> I no longer want to expand on this - be my guest and restore fir, you'll see first hand what I have come across. I will say this, it was the wood of choice for porch decking long before pressure treated existed - I think it has something to do with the amount of tannins it has - it seems unlimited at times.


 
That was what I am getting at. Maybe the tannins is what the problem is much as like cedar has. Seems that the fir has more of its share of problems than the cedar. I have not had the chance to restore fir and have not seen a fir deck yet, so maybe thats why it is not the choice of deck material as it once was.

Whichever is the case, I know my strengths and limitations, but gotta try one if it comes my way so wish me luck if that occurs. I would appreciate your feedback on what procedure you use so I can file it away in my noggin for use then.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

4ThGeneration said:


> That was what I am getting at. Maybe the tannins is what the problem is much as like cedar has. Seems that the fir has more of its share of problems than the cedar. I have not had the chance to restore fir and have not seen a fir deck yet, so maybe thats why it is not the choice of deck material as it once was.
> 
> Whichever is the case, I know my strengths and limitations, but gotta try one if it comes my way so wish me luck if that occurs. I would appreciate your feedback on what procedure you use so I can file it away in my noggin for use then.


I will not tell you how to restore it. It's way too dangerous, and I wouldn't want to tempt you to try the same thing. Not to mention you may find a safer way of restoring it. I've stopped thinking about it - I always hear about setting customer expectations - yet no direct clear conversation before a job starts ever seems to quell the disappointment in the less than perfect outcome - and then all the ensuing endless questions...what if you did so and so....the paint store says if you buy their restore product it will clean it right up...

In my experience, when I look at century old homes with original fir floor boards - it was always painted. Why change now? I am more about making money than working my azz off to make something look pretty that it fudamentally cannot. Yes, straight grain fir does look mighty pretty - but so what? It isn't fit for outdoor applications. I am putting it right up there with hardwood customers that call me the following spring complaining that there is nothing left on their deck and that stain should last 3 years on their teak/pau lope/ipe deck - yeah, whatever. I am often fooled by redwood, thinking it's fir - but with a much tighter grain. I wish folks would put that stuff down instead if they truly like fir. At least it accepts a stain nice and doesn't look disgusting.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I can't even start a simple thread about deck stain without it becoming explosive. I still like fir. And my Armstrongs hasn't turned black yet.  

Now, get to work everyone. Breaks over.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I can't even start a simple thread about deck stain without it becoming explosive. I still like fir. And my Armstrongs hasn't turned black yet.
> 
> Now, get to work everyone. Breaks over.


LOL, now go start a thread on the door, I have nothing planned for today!:laughing:


----------



## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I can't even start a simple thread about deck stain without it becoming explosive. I still like fir. And my Armstrongs hasn't turned black yet.
> 
> Now, get to work everyone. Breaks over.


 
I am working on training the 5th generation of my family business today. Living the lifestyle of that of a wealthy banking investor so I have tons of time to meet with my ad guys, eating hohos and making my son smile?

Thought you would like to hear about this up in Vermont hmmm thats funny..the first 6 letters of vermont spell out Vermon? hmmmm lol 
vermon *20* up, *14* downA non-friend that is a minister who never makes time for his friends. Vermons are also known for making 12:30am phone calls after having SEVERAL Jack & Coke's and smoking his favorite cigars.


:jester:


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I'm a 12th generation WASP.. not sure what that has to do with anything but the thread is fairly well derailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Fenner


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> I can't even start a simple thread about deck stain without it becoming explosive. I still like fir. And my Armstrongs hasn't turned black yet.
> 
> Now, get to work everyone. Breaks over.












Derail indeed.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> God must love dumbasses - he made so god damn many of them


Luckily, they don't do exteriors.


----------



## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Wow, that is some crazy randomness straight lines!


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> I'm a 12th generation WASP.. not sure what that has to do with anything but the thread is fairly well derailed.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Fenner


 
Did they cover the change under your ins? Wait fenner...thats wac or wav from the Navy, although WASP does have some other meanings also lol.


----------



## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> And my Armstrongs hasn't turned black yet.
> 
> .


That's what you get when you do the proper prep.:thumbup:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

El Sticky!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> El Sticky!


My deck is not sticky because I added my own dryers and defoamers, and a few other things that put the product off the charts. No, I am not going to tell you. :jester:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I wish I still had that thread where he snapped on you. 

Was it vitamin C for oils?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I wish I still had that thread where he snapped on you.
> 
> Was it vitamin C for oils?


It was the chemical composition of vitamin c, yes, that prevented oils from yellowing.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> LOL, now go start a thread on the door, I have nothing planned for today!:laughing:


I do have pictures of my artfully restored fir door. I am so not sharing. All set with fir.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Hey Scott, I will be in Burlington at the end of the month - give me the address of that fir deck and I'll inspect it and take photos and post here my critique.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I wish I still had that thread where he snapped on you.
> 
> Was it vitamin C for oils?


So, Chris - if I want to sub you out on some exterior work - what are your rates?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Dan,

Let me know when you are coming. I'd love to have you out to the shop for magic hat, otter creek or long trail.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan,
> 
> Let me know when you are coming. I'd love to have you out to the shop for magic hat, otter creek or long trail.


local brews? Hmmmmmm


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

Hey is Armstrong the stuff I heard about that you can apply in direct sunlight???


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

941owassard said:


> Hey is Armstrong the stuff I heard about that you can apply in direct sunlight???


Yes you certainly can, but you pay dearly for that feature.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I hear it gives the stain cool designs


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

941owassard said:


> Hey is Armstrong the stuff I heard about that you can apply in direct sunlight???


That might of been Ready Seal. A/C has the same type of oil in it (parafinic). A/C won't flash like a waterborne but you should still follow proper application to be sure.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> That might of been Ready Seal. A/C has the same type of oil in it (parafinic). A/C won't flash like a waterborne but you should still follow proper application to be sure.


Do you remember the demo in Albany? That was whack.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I am beginning to think there isn't much difference between A/C and readyseal. And parafinnic oils screw up the polymerisation of the remaining 'drying' oils. I tested A/C with drops on a hot deck that didn't get coated for another 15 minutes. You can't screw it up.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm thinking (and this is semi-serious) about using transmission oil on the next deck.
Opinions?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> I'm thinking (and this is semi-serious) about using transmission oil on the next deck.
> Opinions?


It would be beautiful. It would contaminate the earth.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> It would be beautiful. It would contaminate the earth.


250,000,000 cars cant be wrong.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> It would be beautiful. It would contaminate the earth.


the earth is one of the best filtration systems in existence.

The earth will be fine long after the humans are gone. Its done just fine for the last 4 + billion years before humans came along thinking they were special.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> I'm thinking (and this is semi-serious) about using transmission oil on the next deck.
> Opinions?


No fungicide = black deck. 

Yes, Mr. Bender I'd like to hire you to service our deck. What are my color choices? 

Bender: We have black, charcoal, ebony and a new color called Night Train. For an additional hundred bucks, we can coat your driveway too.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> the earth is one of the best filtration systems in existence.
> 
> The earth will be fine long after the humans are gone. Its done just fine for the last 4 + billion years before humans came along thinking they were special.


It wont kill the earth. Just might mess up the humans who drink the water.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> It wont kill the earth. Just might mess up the humans who drink the water.


Well, there's that...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> So, Chris - if I want to sub you out on some exterior work - what are your rates?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I just spit ice cream all over my lap top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> No fungicide = black deck.
> 
> Yes, Mr. Bender I'd like to hire you to service our deck. What are my color choices?
> 
> Bender: We have black, charcoal, ebony and a new color called Night Train. For an additional hundred bucks, we can coat your driveway too.


Henry Ford did ok with it.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I just spit ice cream all over my lap top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I knew I'd get that reaction from you.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I knew I'd get that reaction from you.


It was very funny.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> It was very funny.


If only Dan was sincere about it...


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I got an exterior on the 'island' I am bidding, so I am half serious.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Nah. He cant land a job for himself let alone land one to sub out. He was just trying to get a rise out of me. Good stuff.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I got an exterior on the 'island' I am bidding, so I am half serious.


 
I couldn't even get to it this year.

But thank you for thinking of me!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I was going to suggest a 60/40 split. You pay for all materials out of yours


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Nah. He cant land a job for himself let alone land one to sub out. He was just trying to get a rise out of me. Good stuff.


Oh oops. I thought Dan was offering to do work for you as a sub and wondering what your pay structure might look like to him. 

Dan hiring n e p s to work on a j p p job is a whooole other story.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Neps, 

He might be out there with an estimating rate of $400/hr. And the charm to sell it.


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I got an exterior on the 'island' I am bidding, so I am half serious.


Plumb ? or Deer?


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> the earth is one of the best filtration systems in existence.
> 
> The earth will be fine long after the humans are gone. Its done just fine for the last 4 + billion years before humans came along thinking they were special.


Yup everyone's screamin about saving the earth. It will survive whatever we do. We should be concerned about saving our own damn asses, we're much more fragile.


----------



## propainterJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Are'nt we killing the Earth with our overspray?


----------



## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

propainterJ said:


> Are'nt we killing the Earth with our overspray?


can't kill a rock. You may kill all the living creatures on it, but you can't kill the earth. It's been through catastrophic mass annihilations before, but something always regenerated. Heck, if not, we'd be but the carbon base for the plants the dinosaurs are eating.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> I was going to suggest a 60/40 split. You pay for all materials out of yours


 
Been reading "Out of the Bucket" again?


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Been reading "Out of the Bucket" again?


 
Yeah - and I tried getting out of the bucket last week by delegating a lot of responsibility to my nephew - which included brushing oil on trim, a first for him. And then taught him to roll walls, another first. And I got bitched at it from the homeowner - guess I am not good enought to get out of the bucket, homeowner won't hire me unless I am behind the brush.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Yeah - and I tried getting out of the bucket last week by delegating a lot of responsibility to my nephew - which included brushing oil on trim, a first for him. And then taught him to roll walls, another first. And I got bitched at it from the homeowner - guess I am not good enought to get out of the bucket, homeowner won't hire me unless I am behind the brush.


Why can't you be a technician?


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Yeah - and I tried getting out of the bucket last week by delegating a lot of responsibility to my nephew - which included brushing oil on trim, a first for him. And then taught him to roll walls, another first. And I got bitched at it from the homeowner - guess I am not good enought to get out of the bucket, homeowner won't hire me unless I am behind the brush.


why did you get yelled at?


----------



## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

why do I keep clicking on this thread


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> why do I keep clicking on this thread


Because there is a great deal of proprietary info...wood resto secrets about to be revealed.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If you add 100% pure beet juice to your stain (13 oz per gallon) it will prevent mildew 100%.


----------



## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

As Aaron posted last week, I feel smarter every time I come here.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> If you add 100% pure beet juice to your stain (13 oz per gallon) it will prevent mildew 100%.


Makes me pee weird.


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Makes me pee weird.


No, that asparagus.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

daArch said:


> Plumb ? or Deer?


 There's only one house on deer island - nice house though!


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> why did you get yelled at?


She didn't want me to have a helper on the job doing any of the work. She was a telecommuter working in the next room. Was perhaps the quietest workplace in painting I have ever experienced. Even so, when I would impart instruction - she'd come out in the middle of the job nervous as heck and tell me she was unhappy with my helper doing some of the work. Heck she saw how rough my mud repairs were on the first coat - and that worried her. I had him vacuuming 4 times a day to make sure she wasn't worried about a mess.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> She didn't want me to have a helper on the job doing any of the work. She was a telecommuter working in the next room. Was perhaps the quietest workplace in painting I have ever experienced. Even so, when I would impart instruction - she'd come out in the middle of the job nervous as heck and tell me she was unhappy with my helper doing some of the work. Heck she saw how rough my mud repairs were on the first coat - and that worried her. I had him vacuuming 4 times a day to make sure she wasn't worried about a mess.


Dan

I promise you, I am not being a smartass, but I have a question. 

On the job, do your nephews call you Uncle Dan?


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Dan
> 
> I promise you, I am not being a smartass, but I have a question.
> 
> On the job, do your nephews call you Uncle Dan?


Uncs


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> Uncs


If you require them to call you "boss", you will have no further second guessing by your customers. 

As in, "hey Boss, have you put another skim on this or should I?"


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> She didn't want me to have a helper on the job doing any of the work. She was a telecommuter working in the next room. Was perhaps the quietest workplace in painting I have ever experienced. Even so, when I would impart instruction - she'd come out in the middle of the job nervous as heck and tell me she was unhappy with my helper doing some of the work. Heck she saw how rough my mud repairs were on the first coat - and that worried her. I had him vacuuming 4 times a day to make sure she wasn't worried about a mess.


I'd just tell her who is the boss, and that should be you.

If you are being told whats up, imho you shouldn't be taking the job.

You know that too.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I'd just tell her who is the boss, and that should be you.
> 
> If you are being told whats up, imho you shouldn't be taking the job.
> 
> You know that too.


I give guys $1 for every time they call me "boss" in front of customers. I like it to be direct. Like, "Oh, hey, mornin' Boss".


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

On a side note; I sent a text using my voice to text option on my android a while back explaining that my neighbor needed some advice staining his deck. The problem was the android heard it as d*ick


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> I give guys $1 for every time they call me "boss" in front of customers. I like it to be direct. Like, "Oh, hey, mornin' Boss".


I only give them 75 cents. You're getting ripped off.


----------



## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

ya know, my wife keeps complaining that I'm watching too much sports on TV


----------



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Bender said:


> On a side note; I sent a text using my voice to text option on my android a while back explaining that my neighbor needed some advice staining his deck. The problem was the android heard it as d*ick


 
Or it was a freudian slip. :whistling2:

Twinkle toes.


----------



## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> I'd just tell her who is the boss, and that should be you.
> 
> If you are being told whats up, imho you shouldn't be taking the job.
> 
> You know that too.


yeah - I know, but unfortunately I haven't been too picky in what I can turn down. I've had to take a lot of work this year I didn't want to in order to survive.


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> yeah - I know, but unfortunately I haven't been too picky in what I can turn down. I've had to take a lot of work this year I didn't want to in order to survive.


Nothing wrong with eating.


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Nothing wrong with telecommuters.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

"Boss, do you want me to wash those black deck stains?"


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> "Boss, do you want me to wash those black deck stains?"


"aahck, the stain will hide em, just keep moving kid..."


----------



## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

thats what particle masks are for, tell them not to take them off until the entire deck is sanded. You won't get that bs of them shutting the sander off and taking a break to ask you questions.


----------



## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

lmao
150 posts. 
ole would be proud


----------



## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Update: Its been a year since I started this thread about my deck. Today, I washed it and was happy to find that it will not require a coat this year. There was no black or green, mildew formation. It was just a little grimy, but with a mild wash it cleaned up well, and water beads right up on it. Good performing stain.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I have been accumulating pictures and data about Armstrong so that i can give real world recommendations not based on rhetoric or being a "fan boy". Bakers has changed their formula and it now has drying issues. Armstrong is, in my opinion, the best (VOC compliant) stain on the market.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

First of all, is a covered porch a good baseline to determine how well a stain will last? I stained a deck two years ago with A.C. that was half inside and half outside. The following spring, the covered/screened part of the deck was in fine condition. The exposed deck looked white, no trace of stain whatsoever.

Secondly, you claim that Penofin is a good product. I've never put down that product but I have had to strip it twice - and that is the most horrid stain that goes black to the point of the wood looking like it had a flash fire on it. 

Thirdly, I have twp 200 stain that is a year old in a couple of weeks that is full sunshine, fully exposed and serves as the main entrance to the house since we never use the front door anymore. And that stuff performs.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> I have been accumulating pictures and data about Armstrong so that i can give real world recommendations not based on rhetoric or being a "fan boy". Bakers has changed their formula and it now has drying issues. Armstrong is, in my opinion, the best (VOC compliant) stain on the market.


Ken

I am liking the look of its performance. When I did my deck last year, I also did our fir mudroom exterior entry door and a set of cedar overheads. 3 different species, 3 different exposures. 

I washed the deck today as an afterthought (was downstreaming SC on the house) and was really happy with how that cleaned the deck up. Its funny, thats not a product that we go out to wash decks with, but once in a while we will do one in the course of washing a house, and find that it works surprisingly well for a basic clean. Ever do that?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> First of all, is a covered porch a good baseline to determine how well a stain will last?
> 
> *Yes, mine is. *
> 
> ...


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Wow, I just read all 8 pages.....fell asleep around page 3 or 4.....started to have some weird dreams.....woke back up with the laptop still perfectly balanced on my lap.....and finished reading the rest. Lol


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Ken
> 
> I am liking the look of its performance. When I did my deck last year, I also did our fir mudroom exterior entry door and a set of cedar overheads. 3 different species, 3 different exposures.
> 
> I washed the deck today as an afterthought (was downstreaming SC on the house) and was really happy with how that cleaned the deck up. Its funny, thats not a product that we go out to wash decks with, but once in a while we will do one in the course of washing a house, and find that it works surprisingly well for a basic clean. Ever do that?


On decks we do maintenance on, we downstream straight bleach and a little of my house wash mix (similar to SC). It usually brightens the stain right up. On some high exposure areas or where there is heavy foot traffic it will strip but a recoat blends well and the deck looks new again. You cannot do that with an acrylic.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> plainpainter said:
> 
> 
> > First of all, is a covered porch a good baseline to determine how well a stain will last?
> ...


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