# Paper Questions (Thread Split)



## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Bill, i have recently spoken with several hangers that are actually quite good and reputable with decades each of experience around here in Texas. More often than not, the advice has been to go over. Test first but due to poor initial hanging practices, getting the paper off causes much more damage to the wallboard. Most houses that you see wallpaper in here in my area have it in bathrooms and kitchens. No primer underneath, no sizing, just ridiculous adhesive to bare regular rock, not green board. I have done extensive wallpaper removal in the past few years, but extensive prep after removal. Lots of skimming. When speaking of wall textures that are not intended to be level 5, I am starting to come around to believing there is a time and place for going over the top of paper. 

Imo, if it is super stuck, calk all edges to trim and ceiling, oil prime all paper, skim joints, texture, prime and paint is a viable alternative. I know you will deem me a heritic, but i have seen more sound sheetrock blister after paint due to separation of sheetrock backing. From the actual rock. The initial drywall and paper hangers here in the 80's and 90's were not friendly at all to planning for the wallpaper to ever being removed.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Paradigmzz said:


> Bill, i have recently spoken with several hangers that are actually quite good and reputable with decades each of experience around here in Texas. More often than not, the advice has been to go over. Test first but due to poor initial hanging practices, getting the paper off causes much more damage to the wallboard. Most houses that you see wallpaper in here in my area have it in bathrooms and kitchens. No primer underneath, no sizing, just ridiculous adhesive to bare regular rock, not green board. I have done extensive wallpaper removal in the past few years, but extensive prep after removal. Lots of skimming. When speaking of wall textures that are not intended to be level 5, I am starting to come around to believing there is a time and place for going over the top of paper.
> 
> Imo, if it is super stuck, calk all edges to trim and ceiling, oil prime all paper, skim joints, texture, prime and paint is a viable alternative. I know you will deem me a heritic, but i have seen more sound sheetrock blister after paint due to separation of sheetrock backing. From the actual rock. The initial drywall and paper hangers here in the 80's and 90's were not friendly at all to planning for the wallpaper to ever being removed.


 

I have always removed in the past...

On an occasional request:

1. Remove any loose paper 
2. Seal with Roman wallpaper sealer
3. skim where needed
4. caulk top & bottom
5. Paint 

I have revisited these jobs after a couple of years with not a single issue, including bathrooms.

It seems to be frowned upon in the industry not to remove the paper, but the reality is, i have re-done too many walls from contractors not removing glue than if they would of sealed it and did the above method in the first place.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> Bill, i have recently spoken with several hangers that are actually quite good and reputable with decades each of experience around here in Texas. More often than not, the advice has been to go over. Test first but due to poor initial hanging practices, getting the paper off causes much more damage to the wallboard. Most houses that you see wallpaper in here in my area have it in bathrooms and kitchens. No primer underneath, no sizing, just ridiculous adhesive to bare regular rock, not green board. I have done extensive wallpaper removal in the past few years, but extensive prep after removal. Lots of skimming. When speaking of wall textures that are not intended to be level 5, I am starting to come around to believing there is a time and place for going over the top of paper.
> 
> Imo, if it is super stuck, calk all edges to trim and ceiling, oil prime all paper, skim joints, texture, prime and paint is a viable alternative. I know you will deem me a heritic, but i have seen more sound sheetrock blister after paint due to separation of sheetrock backing. From the actual rock. The initial drywall and paper hangers here in the 80's and 90's were not friendly at all to planning for the wallpaper to ever being removed.



No not a heretic when faced with a job first done wrong.

I think I have said that the exception to always stripping is if the asshole who first put up the paper put it on raw rock. Once a job is hacked like that, you might as well give into the Dark Side.

Yes, paper could be bonded as well to raw rock as the cardboard facing is to the gypsum.

And just in case someone wants to take that exception as carte blanche to painting over ALL wallpaper, let me stress that just because it's vinyl coated or even with one layer of paint, that's no excuse NOT to strip if the walls were prepped correctly at the outset. 

It sounds like your procedure to that type of hacked job is correct, but have you tried Gardz? I find it will penetrate pulp paper better and ensure to bond to the raw rock.


Remember, I'm not a black and white kinda guy. I understand there are always situations to which one must adapt.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

daArch said:


> No not a heretic when faced with a job first done wrong.
> 
> I think I have said that the exception to always stripping is if the asshole who first put up the paper put it on raw rock. Once a job is hacked like that, you might as well give into the Dark Side.
> 
> ...



BILL, to be quite frank, i have yet to see a properly prepped wall here in regards to new construction hanging when doing remodel stripping. As for gardz, I'm looking forward to using it as soon as i run out of my leftover stock of oil based primer.


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## HQP2005 (Feb 14, 2012)

In my time working at a boarding school, I used Gardz several times to go over wall paper, cuz they didnt want to spend the time removing it.I was actually quite suprised how well it took the paint. I'm still a bit skeptical though of what will happen over time, and wouldnt suggest it to an HO unless the insisted on it.

And as daArch pointed out, someone has to deal with it eventually.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paradigmzz said:


> BILL, to be quite frank, i have yet to see a properly prepped wall here in regards to new construction hanging when doing remodel stripping. As for gardz, I'm looking forward to using it as soon as i run out of my leftover stock of oil based primer.


And what is shameful about that insidious practice is that the builders are saving only a few dollars per room, while creating huge expenses for some homeowner down the road. 

and we wonder why developers have reputations equal to lawyers and politicians.


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## the paintman (Feb 3, 2012)

I can not help it. I got to join the fun. This is such a relevant topic to most painters. Also since i have about 50k s.f. of commercial grade vinyl to strip on two big jobs in the very near future as well. 

We have all faced this dilemma. To strip or not to strip. When you first start out in the business little do you know. Yeah sure strip it no problem. A couple hours. And then 2 days later that little bathroom or kitchen paint job ate your lunch. Well you know how it happens. That loose corner the homeowner showed me how loose it was. It turns out was the only easy piece to remove. The rest was a million little pieces. Drywall damage also that is not an easy thing to deal with when the facing is torn off. Especially daunting the first time when you realize its going to bubble again every time you get it wet with more paint.

Fast forward to commercial work. Where i am faced with an assisted living center with 8 floors of hallways all wallpaper. And the estimate for removing adds 10k on top of the paint bid. And an unknown, unbid (not included thanks to the hugh lesson learned on that little bath years previous) amount of wall repair damage repairs if it turns out it aint primed properly. So it quickly turns into my customers decision in the end to paint over. You see where this is going? Arch (and this is not pointed at you alone. if it seems that way its only because i really do respect your professional opinion). Not to stereotype, but this may be a southern thing, that is i mean it seems no one primes for wallpaper properly it seems. I am in agreement with the texas posters on this. GC's dont seem to care down here if walls are prepped properly prior to painting. It's all about the benjamins. (in thier defense its mostly a 60's - 90's thing). Maybe they deemed it not necessary, not knowing it would pose such problems down the road. IDK. Just the facts man. 

So at the beginning of the thread i was feeling kinda bad. Thinking am i the only painter doing this. But then the thread started to turn in a new direction and yes, it turns out a lot of painters (maybe forced to in the south it seems), me included for various reasons may in fact have painted over lots of WP. For me like i said its been laid out and soley thier decision. Me trying to sell a job, yes of course, maybe i have leaned more to saving them money to sell the job. And for the most part with hugh, i mean hugh success. I mean in selling the job that is. Yes Arch, I have sinned and sold many many times. And have gotten really good at it. Hiding seams and all. Stripping out the bad or mildewed only areas. LOL! And you know some of those textured, 3d, grass and string papers look really cool and decorative solid painted over. Seriously they really do. With a semi-gloss on them, when they are embossed or raised flowers and scrolly things and such.

Now to clarify one point. Arch is absolutly correct in saying it will come back to haunt someone another day. Not all the time. But at least half or better of the time. (thats a educated guess) And it will be a bigger problem when it does. But one thing I have learned. Commercial clients only have a 5-7 year outlook on things. Things change, people change,ownership changes, businesss change, buildings change so often its mindless or impossible to figure out who, or who cares who or how it happened anyway. "Its our problem now". Believe it or not thats life in the big city here. 

It honestly to my knowledge has not come back to haunt me. Of course I have no way of really knowing for sure if i missed out on another job, because of it. But I doubt it because of the reasons just mentioned. And maybe the new problem has fed another contractors family even. 

In fact I have painted for that national assisted living company for 12 years. I got painted wallpaper all over florida that old. I did a hugh job for them in Ft lauderdale where the stripping cost added way to much to the budget. So we painted over it. The same guy is hiring me to strip 50k s. f. on two other sites. Why because of some minor nagging inherint problems on that other job. Does he hold it against me. Not in the least. As soon as I reminded him thier was not enough money in your companies budget to strip that one, we both laughed and he said I know. Put enough in your bid to strip this one. Make sure your covered. My bosses don't want any problems on these. 

So the bottom line is. If you are professional in all your dealings. It not only does not have to be your fault or problem at all. And the new problem may end up in your acct as well too. My customers know I shoot straight from the hip. And with all due respect to everyones opinion here. And especially you Arch who i have realized quickly to be the wallpaper authority. I was glad to hear you say you are not black and white on this and thier are exceptions to every rule.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Good honest, insightful post Paintman. Saved me a lot of typing lol! Never something we look to do or encourage, but the reality is, sometimes it is an option. As long as the customer is aware of the pros and cons and understands the ramifications. I do not believe it is necessarily an unethical practice.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

daArch said:


> And what is shameful about that insidious practice is that the builders are saving only a few dollars per room, while creating huge expenses for some homeowner down the road.
> 
> and we wonder why developers have reputations equal to lawyers and politicians.


Bill dont leave out the corporate insurance pukes or the fat cat ceo's that rip companies apart and run with millions of dollars. i could go on here but i would start a seperate thread for cynical hippies instead.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Paintman,

now I am not a commercial vinyl hanger, but it is my understanding that commercial vinyl is "usually" installed with a strippable paste and DIRECTLY onto raw rock. This is SOP (I hope a regular commercial hanger will back me up). AND, from what I hear, one just pulls said vinyl off the walls and rehangs the new goods.

I have done this on some smaller jobs having been advised such by those with more experience. 

But that is when commercial vinyl is hung on raw rock. I do fully understand the dilemma when residential papers are hung on raw rock. Luckily I have not had too many of those up here in the northeast.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I split this off a poorly thought out thread and did not feel the posts above should fall with the others. 

Carry on.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I split this off a poorly thought out thread and did not feel the posts above should fall with the others.
> 
> Carry on.


I'm confused:blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

chrisn said:


> I'm confused:blink:


This was part of a thread I trashed. So I salvaged this portion.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> This was part of a thread I trashed. So I salvaged this portion.


 
After I posted yesterday, I fiured it must be something like that, thanks


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

daArch said:


> Paintman,
> 
> now I am not a commercial vinyl hanger, but it is my understanding that commercial vinyl is "usually" installed with a strippable paste and DIRECTLY onto raw rock. This is SOP (I hope a regular commercial hanger will back me up). AND, from what I hear, one just pulls said vinyl off the walls and rehangs the new goods.
> 
> ...


You are correct bill. I am sliding more and more into commercial and this has been my experience. I don't mind commercial vinyl near as much, but the truth is you never know if they were intelligent enough to use stripable paste.


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## the paintman (Feb 3, 2012)

daArch said:


> Paintman,
> 
> now I am not a commercial vinyl hanger, but it is my understanding that commercial vinyl is "usually" installed with a strippable paste and DIRECTLY onto raw rock. This is SOP (I hope a regular commercial hanger will back me up). AND, from what I hear, one just pulls said vinyl off the walls and rehangs the new goods.
> 
> ...


Stripping commercial vinyl is not the big issue. It's so thick it hardly ever dosn't come off in one piece. Although The cost of stripping the pure volume of paper is. And the unknown cost of inherent problems underneath is also the reason many will elect to paint over it.

The ugliness underneath is the big issue. It will pull facing on occasion. But that is the least of the problems in most cases. But I have seen it be hugh for another contractor where it was a full out issue on a 16 story hotel. 100% skim job with quickset. So still no way of nowing for sure and nothing i can predict.

2nd On a number of occasions the drywall is finished at a level 2 to 3 underneath. Because the vinly is so thick they bid the drywall finish out low or he cut the level down a notch when he and the paper hanger put thier heads together. We are talking 6" seams and sunkin nail heads spotted one time only. Barely level 2 now. Hard to deal with for a paint finish. Again unpredictable.

3rd MILDEW. OMG this can be a huge one on exterior walls. 
But is also been known to be an issue everywhere. I'm sure you know thier are certain "old" paste I have been told that mold and mildew feed on. And thier is not a nursing home or ALF or most old large commercial buildings that don't have water intrusion issues either from the roof, windows or walls. Or all 3. Neglect permeats the whole mainenance budget if you know what i mean. They will patch roofs for many, many , many many years before they drop a 1/4 to 1/2 mill or more into a total reroof. Hell they put off a 50k paint job for years while water intrudes cracks in blocks and around window frames. While totally ignoring the maintenance guys cries for help the whole time. Mildew extractions on several levels. Rock replacement on the bottom and under windows in a lot of occasions. Again totally unpredictable.


And if they know mildew is a big issue (and they do because the maintenance guy has been telling them) they sometimes will put that off for years too, sad to say, because they don't want to open the health issue can of worms. So the silent killer grows and grows from underneath like an alien from below. Have you ever seen pink and wierd colored splotches on the outside of vinyl that obviously look out of place? That stuff has to be growing for years before it shows through heavy commercial vinyl.


And as far as stripping and rehanging. With a due respect, I have never seen anyone strip paper and rehang. Paperhangers must be getting all that work. My experience is only been when wallcoverings have gotten to point of really being so bothersome an issue that thier is not even one iota of consideration for going back to that. They are really fed up by the time they call me in. 

Even though vinly has a very long usefull life in commercial applications compared to paint, its limitations poses a big problem on the rehabs i deal with on a regular basis. So, much like painting over wallcoverings is a problem for someone else down the road. Hanging the wallpaper in the first place is also a problem for someone down the road. It's all job security the way i look at it. In fact the next time we sit down over drinks or lunch i'm going to ask my guy. "Whats the chances we can get some work out of stripping all that paper we have been painting over for the last 10 years? ROFLMAO. 

It's all part of the life cycle of paper and painting my frends. Lets roll with it. And be happy we are working.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I looked at a job yesterday involving painting over wallpaper in about 3 baths and 2 br's. I read on the Gardz TDS that you can use it over paper which when you wipe a wet sponge over it you can see the darkening from the water. Is that the only type of wallpaper that you should prime with Gardz prior to painting? The other painter had bid priming it with oil primer, which is what I normally would have suggested as well. I happen to have a bunch of Gardz left over from another project and of course it's less stinky than oil. 

Also, I read on here to caulk the top and bottom edges, which I had thought of during the bid. I'm thinking the edge next to the trim, which isn't getting 
painted, may need caulking as well. Any thoughts on that? Thanks y'all!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Damon, 

what were the extenuating circumstances that required painting of the wallpaper?

Did you test to assure yourself it was pasted directly on raw rock?


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

daArch said:


> Damon,
> 
> what were the extenuating circumstances that required painting of the wallpaper?
> 
> Did you test to assure yourself it was pasted directly on raw rock?


Thanks Bill. The homeowners had already met with a painter who suggested it would be much less expensive to paint over rather than strip. Which is probably true. Their goal is to sell in 3-5 years. The strange thing about the paper is it has separated at every seam about 1/8". Ive attached a photo. Any ideas why the paper would behave this way?

I wanted to pull on an area which was loose due to continued overflow from a tub, but they wouldn't let me peel it back. One upstairs bathroom was peeling at every seam, but the rest of the rooms appeared pretty tight, other than the strange separation I've already mentioned.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

in three to five years THEY may be faced with a failure that would cost THEM more than stripping it right in the first place, especially if they won't let you do any investigative pulling.

With those type of people I try to instill a little social consciousness in them. It is a fact that no matter HOW successful you are painting over strippable wallpaper, it WILL need to be stripped sometime in the future. I then ask them how would THEY like to buy a house that very soon will need $500 dollars worth of stripping because the old owner wanted to save $100. 

Without seeing the bath first hand, I would not diagnose the problem. The paint under the seam split "appears" to be glossy. PERHAPS the walls were not prepped correctly and with the constant steam, the paste lost adhesion with a glossy paint. IF that is the case, even if you were to paint over, you would need to attend to EVERY seam and edge to make sure they are tight (caulking will not fix loose paper), tap all around for other loose areas, remove ALL loose paper, gardz, patch, sand, gardz again, prime, and paint. And you still MIGHT get some bubbling. 

IMO, all that prep work will take about half the time to strip, saving what? $100 ?

I do not think any professional on this forum would sell a hack job. I do not believe anyone here would NOT prepare a paint job correctly so that it will last as long as possible. Even if the HO was selling the house in 3 to 5 years.


Good luck convincing them not to create a HUGE problem for future painter or paperhanger. And remember, your name will forever be associated with that job.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks again Bill, I appreciate your input. 
I certainly don't want to do a hack job. I wasn't aware that painting over it now would lead to failure in the future. I thought that the dark color in the seams was the backing paper, but I see how it could be glossy paint as you suggested. I'm coming off of a job I recently finished where stripping paper in two bathrooms took four times as long as I thought, which wasn't profitable. Is there some clear reasoning you can give me to help explain to the HOs why the paper may fail in a few years. I'm a technical details type guy, so if I can understand the dynamics behind it, it will be easier to make a case. 

Thanks again!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Also, I must be very inefficient compAred to you, as the two baths I just stripped, including hardware removal, priming gouges prior to spackle, spackling gouges, took 27 hours. I ended up cutting my hourly rate in half for them as it took four times the estimAted time. I used the sanding method you describe for one bath, as I couldn't get any facing paper to come off, and the other bath the facing paper came off in pieces between 2" and 8"k with the occasional bonus piece that was maybe 4"x12". We primed everything with Gardz after the repair, but that wasn't even included in the 27 hours. 

If the three baths and two large bedrooms on this current estimate only took $500 to strip I would do it in a heartbeat.


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