# Speaking of free estimates...



## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

In regards to this thread. 

When I recently had my website built, I changed out some terminology.
Instead of claiming I give free _estimates_, I now give free _consultations_. 
All of my subsequent marketing materials will have this verbiage also.

My reasoning? If someone calls me, and we chat about a job, and it sounds like a good fit for me (they qualify?), I will schedule a time to meet with them to give them my free consultation. 

If someone calls me, and we chat about a job, and it sounds like they are (price shopping, not serious buyers, don't qualify, etc) then I will schedule a time to meet with them and tell them there is a $XX estimate fee. If they ask about the free consultation, I will explain to them that by talking to me on the phone about their project, that _was_ the consultation. 

How do you all feel about that?


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I like the way you think Mr. WallGuy. I think its clever without being dishonest. Its a way when someone just hasn't met the criteria to make enough money to at least cover your time and expenses for going out. Its like another stage of qualifying.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> I like the way you think Mr. WallGuy. I think its clever without being dishonest. Its a way when someone just hasn't met the criteria to make enough money to at least cover your time and expenses for going out. Its like another stage of qualifying.


:yes:
Thank you. You said it better than I did.
I just wanted a polite way to be able to (blow off) get paid for my time on the bad ones, and still keep the door open for the good ones using the *free* jargon.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

How much are you thinking of charging?


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

There could be a one time set up fee for new customers, no fee for returning customers.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Nothing worse than spending money on bidding jobs you never had a chance of getting. I like the idea but it will be hard for me to implement. People are so cheap right now as so many people are really pinching pennies.


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> How much are you thinking of charging?


Probably about $35-$50 depending on how far away. Insurance bids always get hit for $100.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

A great way of qualifying. And $35-50 sounds about right to me also.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> In regards to this thread.
> 
> When I recently had my website built, I changed out some terminology.
> Instead of claiming I give free _estimates_, I now give free _consultations_.
> ...



Well since you asked openely, I feel that you are strictly a wallpaper hanger that works in a completely different field than painters do.

I have no problem with you moderating this "painting" forum, but honestly your apples do not compare to my oranges.

Unless you see 10 illegals or even 2 dirty broke down people competing for your work?
I have worked for large companies that have "wallpaper only" guys and they look waaaaay different than any painter I have ever seen.
In a good way that is.

:thumbsup:

disregard this post if you indeed bid on painting jobs also.


Edit: Wallpaper is considered a specialty coating in IMHO and therefor a consult charge is in order, us painters, well whoever quotes the "right price" is the only assurance to winning the contract. Painting is a total c.r.a.p. shoot.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> Probably about $35-$50 depending on how far away. Insurance bids always get hit for $100.





Wolfgang said:


> A great way of qualifying. And $35-50 sounds about right to me also.


wha?!? I need to move to where _you_ guys are!!!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> disregard this post if you indeed bid on painting jobs also.


I do many interior repaints, so I will disregard it. 


Wolfgang said:


> A great way of qualifying. And $35-50 sounds about right to me also.


I figured for a local sales call, $35 really won't cover my time/gas, but is sufficient enough to make sure the prospect is half-way serious. Up to $50 if I have to drive more than a half hour away.

BTW, I will still provide free bids to commercial/designer jobs unless it sounds really flaky. My deal I posted about here only applies to home owners.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I think for a well established business it is a great way to weed out the tire kickers that never developes into work. and 35-50 seems just the right amount to weed out the unwanted. 

For a less established company I think you should pursue most all leads.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> Wallpaper is considered a specialty coating in IMHO and therefor a consult charge is in order, us painters, well whoever quotes the "right price" is the only assurance to winning the contract. Painting is a total c.r.a.p. shoot.


Sounds like maybe paper it is something you should look into doing if you see it like this.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

In that same vain. The phone call roller sale people first add people you know the type I am talking about the pain in the A--- sales people. I have started a policy that I need there address before I will talk with them. This way I can bill them for wasting my time seeing I have ask a million time not to call me. So far they have all hung up on me before I could tell them I was billing them:tongue_smilie:
David


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Man, this is a tough one for me. I definitely understand PWG's logic and application. One of my concerns, would be mis-reading a potential customer and "scairing" them off by stating you charge for estimates. 

Let's say they are not price shopping but genuinely looking for the best value. And they've got 3 contractors on their call list. Let's call it a $1200 job. Because they are savvy (not cheap) maybe you get the vibe to charge for your estimate. So, they pick the best of the remaining two. Hence, you never get a chance. Really, the question I would have to answer is: would this be the exception or the norm?

On the other hand, I would bet the close ratio for paid estimates vs. free are 10 fold better.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Sounds like maybe paper it is something you should look into doing if you see it like this.



I did apply paper for a couple of years doing commercial and residential, I just don't have the chops for it....chops means "patience" in my case.
It requires a certain touch indeed, and it is not something that can simply be taught. 
I chose the faux route instead which is comparable to paper without the commitment.

i am lazy.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> Man, this is a tough one for me. I definitely understand PWG's logic and application. One of my concerns, would be mis-reading a potential customer and "scairing" them off by stating you charge for estimates.
> 
> Let's say they are not price shopping but genuinely looking for the best value. And they've got 3 contractors on their call list. Let's call it a $1200 job. *Because they are savvy (not cheap) maybe you get the vibe to charge for your estimate.*


Lets stop there and examine. Pro has been in business awhile. If he is pulling the "we charge $35 for onsite estimates" card, he was probably going to disqualify this caller anyway. Its a little cat and mouse game. If they commit and say the estimate amount is fine (which the majority of people would if they are truly "savvy" as well as respectful of other's time), then Wall knows this is probably a hot lead. His close ratio will probably be higher. The person has committed something to him already. He knows he is paid and may make a smoother sale. 

Not everything is concrete. That's just my take on it.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Pro,

What do you do to pre-qualify a customer? Do you have certain questions or a planned script?


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Lets stop there and examine. Pro has been in business awhile. If he is pulling the "we charge $35 for onsite estimates" card, he was probably going to disqualify this caller anyway. Its a little cat and mouse game. If they commit and say the estimate amount is fine (*which the majority of people would if they are truly "savvy" as well as respectful of other's time*), then Wall knows this is probably a hot lead. His close ratio will probably be higher. The person has committed something to him already. He knows he is paid and may make a smoother sale.
> 
> Not everything is concrete. That's just my take on it.


Not sure I agree with the bolded above (not sayin I disagree with it either). I think the respectful of one's time part is more the mind frame of other small biz owners vs. the general public. 

Also, I think the fact that he has been is biz awhile makes this a better model for him vs. a not-so mature biz. 

I would bet my bottom dollar the closing ratio for paid estimates vs. free estimates is, at least 50% better - at least. 

The other thought I had on this is: it's a numbers game. You are reducing your numbers. However, you are making your numbers count (qualifying). Does this offset? Million dollar question. Good thread.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

BB, I guess you could call it a planned script because I basically say the same thing every time. The real closer for me is giving them my job min. If they live in the right neighborhood, have given me a general size of the project, and seem to be seeking having it done the "right way" then I put them down for a visit. 

fresh, and so does the game of business. If one knew for sure he or she was going to close X% more sales charging for an estimate, it would be easy to calculate and a no-brainer. 

About the part you bolded.. I put myself in the shoes so I may be tainted as another contractor. I wouldn't have a problem with it.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Remaining in the paint trades and trying to outsmart folks into paying you an honest day's wage is like beating a dead horse. This trade is a cesspool of whores - either wait until unemployment is back down to 4%, so every Tom, ****, & Harry is back washing dishes again or find another business. The most professional high end paint companies have admitted to me in private that all residential customers are junk - no matter how wealthy they are. And that's because of the plethora of whores willing to undermine an honest estimate by as much as 40,50,60, even 70%. This ain't gonna change until the economy has had a few years of job growth - a minimum of 3 years. And only the best salesmen will be able to sell at an honest level in 3 years. My neighbor had her home painted {which consisted of basic scraping,priming, and painting of trim - but only oil siding stain for shakes} back in '00 for $13,700 - that same house goes for like $4,300 now ten years later. Even though inflation dictates it should be a $17,210 job. 

Funny in a day in age where landscapers are routinely billing out their $10/hr under the table immigrant worker for $45 - yet guys in painting are only charging $28-35/man-hours, and not even accounting for all their time - or maintaining the silly beliefs that half day jobs are profitable


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> I did apply paper for a couple of years doing commercial and residential, I just don't have the chops for it....chops means "patience" in my case.
> It requires a certain touch indeed, and it is not something that can simply be taught.
> I chose the faux route instead which is comparable to paper without the commitment.
> 
> i am lazy.


 
I don't know about that, I would take hanging paper over trying to faux paint any day. To me a good faux painter has a very special artistic talent that is inherent and cannot necessarily be learned. Any monkey can hang paper if trained:laughing:


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Christ Dan, you are the biggest downer ever. If its so freakin horrible like you post day in and day out, then give it up already and move on to a more profitable trade. I'm tired of the crying.

Maybe this is what you need, can I offer to buy the first month's 'script?


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

chrisn said:


> I don't know about that, I would take hanging paper over trying to faux paint any day. To me a good faux painter has a very special artistic talent that is inherent and cannot necessarily be learned. Any monkey can hang paper if trained:laughing:


ZING!


Yet with faux if the walls are not square and the paper has a repeat pattern, the measuring and cuts necessary to keep those patterns vertical and matching in the corners is like a hammer to the big toe.
owie!





Besides most HO types have no idea wallpaper is still used.

ZING again!


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

I think the correct term these days is decorative finishes...


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

ProWallGuy said:


> Christ Dan, you are the biggest downer ever. If its so freakin horrible like you post day in and day out, then give it up already and move on to a more profitable trade. I'm tired of the crying.
> 
> Maybe this is what you need, can I offer to buy the first month's 'script?


...there is a "Mod" after all.:thumbup:

I dont think all markets are experiencing what Dan"s may be....I know we arent. I feel for the individuals who have this type of attitude because they dont have the fortitude to do anything else. 

To start calling names on this forum is unexcusable, especially from someone who claims to be a professional.

If your abandoning the trade due to circumstances you continue to describe and you're attitude is what it is, then, imo, you've made the right choice. Maybe another choice to consider is abandoning this forum; as your seeming contempt for us is so obvious.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> ...there is a "Mod" after all.:thumbup:
> 
> I dont think all markets are experiencing what Dan"s may be....I know we arent. I feel for the individuals who have this type of attitude because they dont have the fortitude to do anything else.
> 
> ...


 
I agree the name calling is very silly. But, I think Plain needs to stay. Listening to his rants are kinda motivating. I am reminded of the potential client that tells me how the last painter she hired was never on time, didn't return phone calls, rude, unreliable, etc... That is music (um... money) to my ears:thumbup: 

Plain - Slam the industry all you want - I honestly value your opinion. Chill out on the *****, cesspool sh!t though. You can make your point without degrading other folks.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> I agree the name calling is very silly. But, I think Plain needs to stay. Listening to his rants are kinda motivating. I am reminded of the potential client that tells me how the last painter she hired was never on time, didn't return phone calls, rude, unreliable, etc... That is music (um... money) to my ears:thumbup:


yeah! chrisn can stay too!


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't care if he stays or goes, his posts don't add any value to the forum for me. I just want him to quit 5hitting in the threads, especially mine.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I post what I post to stir the pot - as well I also believe if you personally take offense to what I write - it's because deep down you believe it's true.


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

I agree, every time I see Plains post I know its going to be negative. I personally dont like to be around negative people as they always bring everyone down. In places I have worked for before you'd have a few like this and before you knew it you would feel like that too when you listen to them every break and lunch. This place to me is almost like a self help where it should motivate me and give me knew ideas to try out not make me feel like I screwed up my life by deciding to own a painting company.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> I post what I post to *stir the pot* - as well I also believe if you personally take offense to what I write - it's because deep down you believe it's true.


I don't think you are stirring the pot, I think you are just provoking thoughts. I say this because, there is no way you can even be semi-successful with the attitude you present on this forum. I don't mean to be rude but - come on - you have the most negative regards for this biz. - You agree?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

In Dan's defence, the Merrimack Valley was a thriving hot bed of dot com money not all that many years ago. Furtunes were made overnight (literally). People moved to this gorgeous area of the state for lucrative employment and built theior McMansions. Money flowed.

Last spring I heard on the radio of stories in Dan's town where families can not afford to keep the family dog. I keep an ear open for his area because that's where I went to school. 

BUT, that said, Dan, your downer attitude is not good for YOU. If you exude this defeatest attitude to everyone you meet - including potential customers, it will hurt your business. Believe me, I know. 

I have made a test on the internet these past twelve years. I adopt an attitude, any attitude I may choose, for a period of time. After playing a role, I actually start LIVING the role. 

I quarantee that if you ACT upbeat and positive, your business will improve. G-U-A-R-A-N-T-E-E ! Money back.


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## Picky Painter (Oct 7, 2009)

The world will give you what you expect from it. Ever notice how certain people always seem to attract toxic, problematic people? Your expectations will define your life.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

WisePainter said:


> yeah! chrisn can stay too!


 
Whadda I do?:001_huh:


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> I don't think you are stirring the pot, I think you are just provoking thoughts. I say this because, there is no way you can even be semi-successful with the attitude you present on this forum. I don't mean to be rude but - come on - you have the most negative regards for this biz. - You agree?


My business thrived this year - I grew sales overall 47%. Bill is right the merrimack valley was a lucrative place to be a painter - I remember guys leaving Raytheon in the 90's to go work for Lucent with 50% salary increases, I remember friends investing 10k in CMGI {located in my town} and see their portfolio grow to 200k in less than a year! 

My point are is that I was emotionally involved in my painting business - I took great pride at cutting the straightest lines - I took great pride that I would take 20 minutes to sand down a door jamb - that I sanded evenly between coats and always got a 'frosted' lens appearance to 100% of the paint and not just a 'scuff' sand. And then slowly over time folks started shopping me - started saying the other guy would do everything I would do - or he will offer a 7 year warrantee on her paint job for half my price! 

Anyways the 'writing' was on the wall - I have been engineering my way out of the painting biz since late '06. I still call myself a painting company even though I do very little painting. My newest endeavor will be landscaping related, that will be my 3rd hardcore service I add to my roster with many other little services. I don't know why I still give a hoot about the painting trade - perhaps I just despise all the guys that stayed and kept lowering your price and therefore your self-respect and took what use to be a profitable trade and trashed it. Because I will tell you, my other services have been tremendously profitable this year. Folks will spend money even in this economy.

So Freshcoat, I will have to vehemently disagree with you 100% - I am totally positive in my business and my customers and they see that and they pay me well for my time. I just look down at you guys - because I disrespect you like all your customers disrespect you. Even the most successful guy I know in painting barely makes a 60k salary for half a million in sales - and does that by whoring out his guys to his customers. 

I saw the ship sinking back in '06 - I saw initial signs of the ship sinking back in the spring/summer of '04. And I worked night and day engineering an exit strategy - and it took a heck of a lot of work - but I just barely got off in the nick of time. And I watch you guys from the safety of my little boat as you're all clutching fiercely the railings as your ship is taking a nose dive - and I am chuckling - just watching you talk about how newer paints like Aura will make you more efficient and thus make more money, that didn't happen. I watch you guys talking constantly about everything you can do - like paint a door in 5 minutes flat. But at each point the customer devalues your service, and for all your efforts you embrace your pay cuts like it was some sort of rite of passage. All the while you fools should have been working on your business and thinking of ways to prop up the business and not lowering your price.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Wish you luck in your new business, Dan. Set the course of that life boat for greener pastures and enjoy. 

We'll keep the decks on this ship dry for you so if need to hop on aboard again with any painting questions, we'll be here for you.

Bon Voyage, my friend


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Oh yeah, if you guys ever wanted proof that lowering your price a.k.a. whoring yourselves is a good idea. Just take a look at kelly painters - guy was painting McMansions in the Worcester area for like 6-7k, a job that was worth 11k in 2003-2004.
And he was bragging up and down the avenue how great business was, then by Dec. '08 he said things were bad, made a couple of comments in '09 and by and large is totally gone. Cheap gets you the job - but it also gets you a one way ticket to bankruptcy at the same time. Good luck Whores.....


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Sorry Dan, that last comment just earned you a 30 day vacation.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

That things fell apart in late 2008 in not surprising. Many good companies have gone under in the time since then for various reasons, not necessarily by the fault of the painter. 

If the most successful paint Plain knows makes 60k off of over 500k in sales, he needs to get out more and meet more painters.


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

daArch said:


> Sorry Dan, that last comment just earned you a 30 day vacation.


 30 days, I would give him life if I was the judge. I honestly never thought I would read such crap on this forum. He's watching us sink and chuckles, this guy is nuts. Plain just because you couldnt manage a good paint company doesnt mean that any of us can. I honestly hope you do good with your landscaping business if nothing else just to keep you off the paint forums. Good Luck


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Off topic---Sorry Pro 

I guess a bad economy is a reality check for a lot of contractors. I remember not so long ago when it was a "name your price" economy. Everything was inflated or over inflated. Peoples salaries, homes, stocks, pricing structures, and yes, even ego's. Many painters started during this time, they saw how lucrative it was. They could throw a price out there and get just about every job. Mainly because it was hard to get someone to show up to even bid on the work. I couldn't tell you how many fly by night painters I came across. Bragging about how much they charged, and how much money they were making. 

Now things have come back down, work is competitive, the lowballers are out full force....they always were, but they went unnoticed mostly. I see those "big shot" companies having to compete for work now, or I just dont see them at all. Some companies will make it, others wont. Thats just how it goes.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

Plain, please don't laugh at us going down because that say's a lot about you. I understand that we are drawing at straws sometimes, but don't laugh, it's not good for you.Everyone has ideas that they express out loud sometimes just to hear how they sound. I do a lot of thinking out loud, it does not mean I carry through all the time.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

capitalcity painting said:


> 30 days, I would give him life if I was the judge. I honestly never thought I would read such crap on this forum. He's watching us sink and chuckles, this guy is nuts. Plain just because you couldnt manage a good paint company doesnt mean that any of us can. I honestly hope you do good with your landscaping business if nothing else just to keep you off the paint forums. Good Luck


well, I like Dan, and have seen him offer some worthy insights and some provocative thoughts. I really hated to give him a little vacation, but felt it necessary on many levels. 

I am sure this community wishes him higher tides and greener pastures that what he has reported.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

He is very angry & digruntled & can only see things 1 way...his. If I had 1 of my guys spending 20 minutes sanding a single door frame I'm afraid I would have to let him go not pay him more because he feels he is more detail oriented. Balance is key to EVERYTHING


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> He is very angry & digruntled & can only see things 1 way...his. If I had 1 of my guys spending 20 minutes sanding a single door frame I'm afraid I would have to let him go not pay him more because he feels he is more detail oriented. Balance is key to EVERYTHING


Nice catch, I couldnt imagine spending 20 min sanding a single door frame. I dont even take 20 min for lunch.
Me:
What did you do today Plain?
Plain:
I sanded 24 door frames
Me: 
and what else
Plain:
What do you mean what else, I spent 20 min each on them and did them the right way you *****. Im tired of this cesspool I'm outta here.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

capitalcity painting said:


> Nice catch, I couldnt imagine spending 20 min sanding a single door frame. I dont even take 20 min for lunch.
> Me:
> What did you do today Plain?
> Plain:
> ...


 
:laughing::clap::lol:​


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

aaron61 said:


> He is very angry & digruntled & can only see things 1 way...his. If I had 1 of my guys spending 20 minutes sanding a single door frame I'm afraid I would have to let him go not pay him more because he feels he is more detail oriented. *Balance is key to EVERYTHING*


 
Exactly right.:yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

It still breaks my heart when a guy gets that disgruntled.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

By the way, if you're really happy with your life and are upbeat, are you "gruntled"


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Dan is one of the smartest guys I have ever met on the forums. He should look into consulting and breaking down small businesses to find out how profitable they are and how to get them on track.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Dan is misunderstood. He is not miserable. He is not all the things that people project onto him. He is actually pretty happy. He has a different take on things. I dont always agree with him, and to be honest I have had some knock down dragouts with him, but I consider him a friend and enjoy talking with him. 

In threads, yes it isnt good to call people names but he is not serious with that. He embraces the internet persona that he has. But its not Daniel Tambasco. Hes a good shart. That is one of the reasons why I was willing to suit up tonight and fill in.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Dan is one of the smartest guys I have ever met on the forums. He should look into consulting and breaking down small businesses to find out how profitable they are and how to get them on track.


Hell - Y'all should open a biz together.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Dan is one of the smartest guys I have ever met on the forums. He should look into consulting and breaking down small businesses to find out how profitable they are and how to get them on track.


I bet he could quickly help guys figure out if they are taking a salary yet or not. :blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I agree Scott.

I've had the pleasure of meeting him, and it was tough associating the person with the internet personna. In real life he was much more reserved and quiet than the aura he projects here.

One of my best friends is a regular Mr Hyde on the internet. He's been banned from a list serve that advertizes no holds barred. He's one of the most nasty depressing curmudgeony bigotted racist etc people behind his keyboard, but in real life he's a sweetheart.

I wish gthis freind could bring the same positive energy he does in real life to the internet, but he has chosen not to and now many have the wrong impression of him.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Off the open forums, Dan is a good guy. The paint industry in general, and paint forums in particular, bring out the worst in him. He knows this. Bill, bring him back tomorrow, and I will go back into seclusion. (Not because of Dan, I am on about 6 other forums with him.)


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Off the open forums, Dan is a good guy. The paint industry in general, and paint forums in particular, bring out the worst in him. He knows this. Bill, bring him back tomorrow, and I will go back into seclusion. (Not because of Dan, I am on about 6 other forums with him.)


The mods will discuss it. 

In the defence of a little forced vacation, we have seen the good it has done on that crazy place. 

But as I said, we will discuss it and come to a consensus. We had talked about his recent posts just prior to the 30 day ban, so please do not think it was a unilateral, out of the blue move by any one mod.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> Hell - Y'all should open a biz together.


I edited this post to make my point that all these little jabs at each other are not acceptable. 
This goes for everyone involved. I do not want to spend my time with this silly stuff. If it is something that you, VP and NEPS actually enjoy doing then please do it in the PM's


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> I edited this post to make my point that all these little jabs at each other are not acceptable.
> This goes for everyone involved. I do not want to spend my time with this silly stuff. If it is something that you, VP and NEPS actually enjoy doing then please do it in the PM's


 
Excuse me Sean but please dont put me in that category with FC. If you have a problem with me being here please pm me with your reasons. I have done nothing against the posting rules. Thanks.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Excuse me Sean but please dont put me in that category with FC. If you have a problem with me being here please pm me with your reasons. I have done nothing against the posting rules. Thanks.


No problem with you Chris, just wanting to nip it in the bud before anything gets out of line. I am sure you understand what I mean.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Excuse me Sean but please dont put me in that category with FC. If you have a problem with me being here please pm me with your reasons. I have done nothing against the posting rules. Thanks.


I gotta agree w/ Neps. There is no way he is in the same league as me. JMHO!


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Bill, bring him back tomorrow,


Scott,

Mods were unanimous.

The vacation for Plain will last for the duration. I will not get into explaining ourselves but once a decision is made it was felt that we need to stick to it. Both Wise and Plain will be back at the end of their 30 days. 

thank you for your thoughts on this.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I edited this post to make my point that all these little jabs at each other are not acceptable.
> This goes for everyone involved. I do not want to spend my time with this silly stuff. If it is something that you, VP and NEPS actually enjoy doing then please do it in the PM's


Sean

I dont even know who that cat is. We're all professional paint contractors here, right?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

daArch said:


> Scott,
> 
> Mods were unanimous.
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking into it Bill. I'm sure me and neps can keep our sleeves rolled up and pitch in around here for 29 more days. Its really nice to see everyone.


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Thanks for looking into it Bill. I'm sure me and neps can keep our sleeves rolled up and pitch in around here for 29 more days. Its really nice to see everyone.


I dont understand why you and neps have to be here in plain's absence. Not trying to be smart, I really just dont get that.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

capitalcity painting said:


> I dont understand why you and neps have to be here in plain's absence. Not trying to be smart, I really just dont get that.


 
We dont have to be. We volunteered to fill in. We helped build this place. Back before there were banners and site sponsors, and a full blown mod team, we set brick and mortar here, so we have somewhat of an interest in its continued success. When Plain and Wise shot themselves in the foot within 24 hours of each other, it was our responsibility, and so far our pleasure to suit up and come off the DL. Its temporary, and it harkens back to a different day here at pt. Hope you enjoy, cc, and looking forward to sharing info with you and all the newer comers who have joined in our absence.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> We dont have to be. We volunteered to fill in. We helped build this place. Back before there were banners and site sponsors, and a full blown mod team, we set brick and mortar here, so we have somewhat of an interest in its continued success. When Plain and Wise shot themselves in the foot within 24 hours of each other, it was our responsibility, and so far our pleasure to suit up and come off the DL. Its temporary, and it harkens back to a different day here at pt. Hope you enjoy, cc, and looking forward to sharing info with you and all the newer comers who have joined in our absence.


So which one takes over the role of "Doom and Gloom", and which becomes the self-important, vitirolic, forum sniper?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> So which one takes over the role of "Doom and Gloom", and which becomes the self-important, vitirolic, forum sniper?


C'mon.... I remember when NEPS, VP, and a few others had offered alot of suggestions and advice. And be honest, how many times have you ground your teeth over some of the asinine posts here? I seem to recall that when you have successful and experienced individuals sharing their knowledge and, it seemed, a bunch of "upstarts" not hearing what they wanted, and replying in not the nicest of terms, is what basically happened.

We're all going to have our differences with one another, be it professional or personal, so if these guys decided it was in their best interests to stand back, then I commend them for it. Beats the hell out of personal attacks. And I can say this because there were a few instances where they unloaded on me. I have no hard feelings toward them, never have. If you've heard the old adage; "You dont know how good you have it until you dont have it anymore", you'll have an idea of what I mean. If their return here is what I hope it is, we'll all benefit. If they have to spend this time responding to snipes, then we all lose. Personally, I think it took alot for them to come back, as I dont think they're so naive to think there wouldn't be some of this to put up with.

....just my thoughts on the matter.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> C'mon.... I remember when NEPS, VP, and a few others had offered alot of suggestions and advice. And be honest, how many times have you ground your teeth over some of the asinine posts here? I seem to recall that when you have successful and experienced individuals sharing their knowledge and, it seemed, a bunch of "upstarts" not hearing what they wanted, and replying in not the nicest of terms, is what basically happened.
> 
> We're all going to have our differences with one another, be it professional or personal, so if these guys decided it was in their best interests to stand back, then I commend them for it. Beats the hell out of personal attacks. And I can say this because there were a few instances where they unloaded on me. I have no hard feelings toward them, never have. If you've heard the old adage; "You dont know how good you have it until you dont have it anymore", you'll have an idea of what I mean. If their return here is what I hope it is, we'll all benefit. If they have to spend this time responding to snipes, then we all lose. Personally, I think it took alot for them to come back, as I dont think they're so naive to think there wouldn't be some of this to put up with.
> 
> ....just my thoughts on the matter.


 
Wolf....you are taking it the wrong way. (which means others are too.) I admire, and have seeked out advice from both of them. I was just prodding them a little and if you or they are offended, I apologize.

NEPS, VP...let me give you a big wet sloppy kiss like everybody else is. (you know the love is there, just gotta talk dirty to ya. Am a helpless romantic)


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## capitalcity painting (Apr 28, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> We dont have to be. We volunteered to fill in. We helped build this place. Back before there were banners and site sponsors, and a full blown mod team, we set brick and mortar here, so we have somewhat of an interest in its continued success. When Plain and Wise shot themselves in the foot within 24 hours of each other, it was our responsibility, and so far our pleasure to suit up and come off the DL. Its temporary, and it harkens back to a different day here at pt. Hope you enjoy, cc, and looking forward to sharing info with you and all the newer comers who have joined in our absence.


Cool, It sounds like you guys have a lot of good knowledge to share with us it also sounds like you guys like to cause trouble. I hope your here to share the knowledge but a wise crack here and there are fine too. When I look back at what plain was saying he had some good info just going about it the complete wrong way. Why not say "I dont feel a paint company can stand on its own anymore, I have branched out to landscaping and it has paid off." That may invoke some thought to others about how they can branch out into other fields and survive and hopefully prosper. I didnt even mind him calling some of the lowballers in his area names but why bring that anger towards us. 

Can anyone point me to the thread that got Wise banned, I know he has been pretty negative lately but didnt see what actually got him removed. Is it just me or is Wise just recently going this route, I remember him making some wise cracks but also contributing some nice posts before. Didnt he say he just had twins, not blaming it on that but I'm sure he's under a little stress with the economy and adding 2 to the family.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> C'mon.... I remember when NEPS, VP, and a few others had offered alot of suggestions and advice. And be honest, how many times have you ground your teeth over some of the asinine posts here? I seem to recall that when you have successful and experienced individuals sharing their knowledge and, it seemed, a bunch of "upstarts" not hearing what they wanted, and replying in not the nicest of terms, is what basically happened.
> 
> We're all going to have our differences with one another, be it professional or personal, so if these guys decided it was in their best interests to stand back, then I commend them for it. Beats the hell out of personal attacks. And I can say this because there were a few instances where they unloaded on me. I have no hard feelings toward them, never have. If you've heard the old adage; "You dont know how good you have it until you dont have it anymore", you'll have an idea of what I mean. If their return here is what I hope it is, we'll all benefit. If they have to spend this time responding to snipes, then we all lose. Personally, I think it took alot for them to come back, as I dont think they're so naive to think there wouldn't be some of this to put up with.
> 
> ....just my thoughts on the matter.


 
Great to see you Wolf....or read you that is!

I was very concerned for your health last year and it's great to see you havent lost a step. I should congratulate you on your retirement in Feb (I hope it is wanted). If your ever interested in a cushy sales job please look me up.


I dont have any hard feeling toward the members who have chosen to hop on their soapbox after our departure. Some feel that they could never say things to us face to face (or monitor to monitor) and only read the negative in our posts. I suppose I will never get along with a few guys here but my goal in returning is to have fun without being negative. I'm not sure how long that will last if a few here are allowed to troll our posts to take their shots but I suppose we will let them have their fun for now. 

Everyone is feeling very emotional right now and I dont want to hurt any feelings right out if the gate.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Lets move forward. Time is not our friend. We only have 29 days.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I gotta ask, why a limit of 30 days?

If you are here to add to the benefits of the site and impart your knowledge, why put a limit on it.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> I gotta ask, why a limit of 30 days?
> 
> If you are here to add to the benefits of the site and impart your knowledge, why put a limit on it.


 
Part of the schtick Bill.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

The team is shorthanded. There is only so much talent on the roster. We came off the DL, suited up, and we are contributing. Lets do it.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Wolf....you are taking it the wrong way. (which means others are too.) I admire, and have seeked out advice from both of them. I was just prodding them a little and if you or they are offended, I apologize.
> 
> NEPS, VP...let me give you a big wet sloppy kiss like everybody else is. (you know the love is there, just gotta talk dirty to ya. Am a helpless romantic)


Sounds like I owe you the apology.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

So the topic was free estimates, what are your thoughts? I like PWG's way of thinking.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Sounds like I owe you the apology.


 
None needed. Just keep posting tidbits from your years of experience. Everybody benefits.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

RCP said:


> So the topic was free estimates, what are your thoughts? I like PWG's way of thinking.


imho this topic is over thought. I think those who do it, try to use it as a point of differentiation. "Hey, my time is more valuable than the guys who estimate for free." In my opinion, if I charge for estimates, it would appear that I am a desperate for some cash. I dont like the look of it. I am on salary in my company, I am overhead, my time estimating is overhead and is accounted for. I do, however, draw the line at free insurance estimates for people with no intention of using us.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Although you can't weed all tire kickers out, a proactive pre-qualification process should narrow the field.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> Although you can't weed all tire kickers out, a proactive pre-qualification process should narrow the field.


Definitely critical. I should add that I do not, nor have I ever, advertised "free estimates". I think that looks kind of silly actually. Planting a seed that associates the word "free" with our business is not a great plan.


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## johnisimpson (Oct 5, 2007)

One of my worries would be that a caller could be referred from a good customer and they get different stories on the "free consultation." I kinda like to keep a level playing field for all and I'm sure that most of the seasoned owners here are fairly adept at weeding out the tire kickers anyway.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

There was a good thread about this on another forum not long ago. I think that if you are in a specialty trade or if you have estimates with a lot of moving parts then your time needs to have a value. In residential painting I offer free consultations and free estimates. I pre-screen my potential clients over the phone when they first call and I really only market in areas I wish to do business in so the prescreening is fairly simple. The oportunity to get face time with a potential customer is very valuble. If I do not sell my companies services based on price I have still built a relationship with the HO and they understand what my company offers and may use us in future years or even pass our name along to a friend who is looking for a professional company to work with. No matter what, I leave the potential customer with a positive impression of my company no matter the outcome. 

We pay money for our leads in many different ways and estimating a painting project is a pretty simple thing to do. The face time with potential customers is the easiest form of marketing we can do. Showing off our company and knoweldge. While I understand the theory in charging for the estimate I just do not think it is worth pursuing in the residential painting field.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Definitely critical. I should add that I do not, nor have I ever, advertised "free estimates". I think that looks kind of silly actually. Planting a seed that associates the word "free" with our business is not a great plan.


Here is some counter argument to that, Mr. Scott. Many marketing people I have spoken with or read say that using the word FREE in an ad (three times to be exact) can double your response rate.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

You must understand Ken - Scott could screw up a FREE lunch.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

johnisimpson said:


> One of my worries would be that a caller could be referred from a good customer and they get different stories on the "free consultation." I kinda like to keep a level playing field for all and I'm sure that most of the seasoned owners here are fairly adept at weeding out the tire kickers anyway.


Simple solution, no fee on referral work. I'd only charge for an estimate on someone randomly calling for pricing, or "how to" info.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

I know what you mean. Scott has always a been a bit of a free spirit and free thinker.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> Here is some counter argument to that, Mr. Scott. Many marketing people I have spoken with or read say that using the word FREE in an ad (three times to be exact) can double your response rate.


And triple the likelihood of free color consultation, materials at cost, free touchups, free furniture relocation from room to room...Like Dan Tambasco, I am not so much into resi work where the "free" would be appealing.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> And triple the likelihood of free color consultation, materials at cost, free touchups, free furniture relocation from room to room...Like Dan Tambasco, I am not so much into resi work where the "free" would be appealing.



and like Dan, if they don't call at all, you will not have to worry about any of those possibilities arising.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> and like Dan, if they don't call at all, you will not have to worry about any of those possibilities arising.


Like my colleague, in reference to residential repaints, I would for the most part prefer that they not call for the next 18 months. My advertising budget reflects that sentiment.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

KF

Wanna brainstorm? Instead of "Getting out of the Bucket" we should be talking about "Getting out of Residential"?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

> How do you all feel about that?


Will you offer a 'money back guarantee'?
Like "I ordered my estimate piping hot, with pepperonis and this is estimate is clearly covered in Canadian bacon. I would like a refund."


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Bender said:


> Will you offer a 'money back guarantee'?
> Like "I ordered my estimate piping hot, with pepperonis and this is estimate is clearly covered in Canadian bacon. I would like a refund."


Now thats a great point. You make them pay for the estimate, do you offer a money back guarantee that they will be happy with the estimate you provide? The answer to this should be an inverse proportion to your closing ratio. :blink:


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> KF
> 
> Wanna brainstorm? Instead of "Getting out of the Bucket" we should be talking about "Getting out of Residential"?


 
Im already there


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> KF
> 
> Wanna brainstorm? Instead of "Getting out of the Bucket" we should be talking about "Getting out of Residential"?


I've been chasing multi unit for the past eight weeks, Scott. I like Jeff L's model. I have done maybe 10 bids.. not one was under $20K. I'm using a telemarketing company to set appointments. They are rockin it!

PS: FREE works for commercial work as well.. ask Ronnie


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> I've been chasing multi unit for the past eight weeks, Scott. I like Jeff L's model. I have done maybe 10 bids.. not one was under $20K. I'm using a telemarketing company to set appointments. They are rockin it!
> 
> PS: FREE works for commercial work as well.. ask Ronnie


:yes: I'm lovin it


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## dreemr13 (Jul 9, 2009)

straight_lines said:


> Nothing worse than spending money on bidding jobs you never had a chance of getting. I like the idea but it will be hard for me to implement. People are so cheap right now as so many people are really pinching pennies.


People are cheap right now, you got that right. A new one I am coming up against now if people trying to get a competitor's discount, which is fine, but this week I had a guy with an $800,000 dollar homethey are selling who said my competitor will do it for a $1000 less, but won't show the quote as they didn't feel comfortable, but they preferred my company if I can 'come close'. So I matched it and faxed a new quote. Hmmm funny, never heard from him again. Guessing he played the same game with the other company.

Problem in my city is there are too many desperate, fly by night, cash painters out there that charging would get me no where. I do though, speak with the person first hand now, which seems to weed out the tire kickers.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

dreemr13 said:


> Problem in my city is there are too many desperate, fly by night, cash painters out there that charging would get me no where. /quote]
> 
> I dont like cities like that.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

dreemr13 said:


> People are cheap right now, you got that right. A new one I am coming up against now if people trying to get a competitor's discount, which is fine, but this week I had a guy with an $800,000 dollar homethey are selling who said my competitor will do it for a $1000 less, but won't show the quote as they didn't feel comfortable, but they preferred my company if I can 'come close'. So I matched it and faxed a new quote. Hmmm funny, never heard from him again. Guessing he played the same game with the other company.
> 
> Problem in my city is there are too many desperate, fly by night, cash painters out there that charging would get me no where. I do though, speak with the person first hand now, which seems to weed out the tire kickers.


And this surprises you? If you're going to play someone elses game, you'll probably play by their rules. The odds will never favor you.

In all my years of owning a fax machine I have never sent a bid, proposal, estimate, whatever by fax. How the hell do you "sell" a fax? Rates right up there with the customer who wont take time to meet you in person.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> And this surprises you? If you're going to play someone elses game, you'll probably play by their rules. The odds will never favor you.
> 
> In all my years of owning a fax machine I have never sent a bid, proposal, estimate, whatever by fax. How the hell do you "sell" a fax? Rates right up there with the customer who wont take time to meet you in person.
> 
> Wolf - I don't dis-agree with you. But, I'd say 70% of our proposals are via email. That seems to be pretty effective. I think it depends on your target market. Look at it this way, you've already been to my home (while you were doing your estimate) - so, just give me your figure. I don't need you to come back to my home, give me another sales pitch, and finally a dollar figure. Again, I think it depends on the actual client. Some would prefer that you come back and speak to them face to face about a $6000 investment. Others, don't want the "intrusiveness".


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I dont disagree with you if you find it works for you. It's just something I would never consider, nor have never done.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> I dont disagree with you if you find it works for you. It's just something I would never consider, nor have never done.


Dinosaur


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> I dont disagree with you if you find it works for you. It's just something I would never consider, nor have never done.


Understand and I have no doubt that has played an important role in your company's success.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

I send 99% of my quotes/proposals by either email or fax. Like someone else said i've already done my sales pitch when I meet them for the estimate, so there's no need to do another one. I do, however, make my proposals a sales pitch in a sense by adding in a bunch of product brochures, lots of color on my quote sheets etc etc. 

As for the free estimate - i've been kicking the idea around of charging for them, but since nobody charges for a painting estimate why would I? I just can't justify that. 

BUT - I do charge for SAMPLES. Particularly with wood finishing projects. I never give a firm price until i've prepared a sample (only ballpark) and I won't do the job until the client approves the sample which I charge to prepare. Again that is for wood finishing only.


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## mikeds (Sep 18, 2009)

You know, this is the second time I've heard the concept of improving your business by being selective about your customers and I have to say it's making more and more sense to me (even though it seems counter intuitive at first).

In all practicality I have to agree with workaholic though and have to say that pursuing that kind of strategy really requires you to have an established business where you feel like you can safely turn away (or discourage) prospective clients by charging them a fee for an estimate.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

mikeds,

I don't know you so I can't speak directly to your situation (I clicked your web link, but it looks like some kind of national painter search engine - definitely not YOUR business)

So excuse me for putting out a few feelers here. Just trying to get a better handle on how you conduct business

you said, "You know, this is the second time I've heard the concept of improving your business by being selective about your customers and I have to say it's making more and more sense to me (even though it seems counter intuitive at first)."

Why does it sound counter intuitive ?

Have you determined the time you spend on each estimate? That includes telephone calls, travel time, on site time, and crunching numbers? 

IMO, time and money are wasted if you do not pre-select to DE-select the ones that have a slim chance of panning out.

Don't get me wrong, EVERY estimate is a gamble, but if you stack the deck a little in your favor, your chances (and return on investment) are heightened. 

It will be tough time convincing me to charge for an estimate. I do, however, believe in spending the extra time on the phone to make sure I have better than a snowball's chance in hell of landing the job. 

It really is a time/money equation


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

He said counter intuitive Bill. Thats a whole different discussion.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> He said counter intuitive Bill. Thats a whole different discussion.



u'r right. Substitute the words and I believe it'll still hold water

Oh heck, I'll make the correction


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Ok...


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Dinosaur


Yep....


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> Understand and I have no doubt that has played an important role in your company's success.


Honestly speaking, I'd like to think it has. Mostly it has to do with the bid process I use and my personality type. I've never gotten any "vibes" from customers as being intrusive, and I think with the type of customer I deal with, they would certainly let me know.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Maybe I'm dealing with different customers (ie simpler jobs), but ~ 9 in 10 of the estimates we give are written up on the spot and presented during the same meeting. 

No need to email/fax or visit for a second time just to present the estimate. I think visiting a second time just to present a simple estimate is overkill, it can be done the first time around.

A second visit typically covers colors/contract.

Only if it's a complex job with a couple page proposal is a second visit warranted just to present the beast (and if it's this complex, you shouldn't be simply emailing it anyways, IMO)

How does this sound?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

y.painting said:


> Maybe I'm dealing with different customers (ie simpler jobs), but ~ 9 in 10 of the estimates we give are written up on the spot and presented during the same meeting.
> 
> No need to email/fax or visit for a second time just to present the estimate. I think visiting a second time just to present a simple estimate is overkill, it can be done the first time around.
> 
> ...


Exactly! And that's how I do them.:thumbup:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> Honestly speaking, I'd like to think it has. Mostly it has to do with the bid process I use and my personality type. I've never gotten any "vibes" from customers as being intrusive, and I think with the type of customer I deal with, they would certainly let me know.


I was, in no way, suggesting you were being intrusive. Do you work in a "small town" type of atmoshere?


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

I was a proponent of emailing proposals. Now believe that it is more efficient to meet the client in person (after pre-qualifying) and writing a proposal in person.

1. If you are extremely flexible with meeting them in person, and they refuse, they are likely tire kickers. (unless they are absentee owners)
2. If you practice your sales skills, you want to close while there and get them to sign. Don't give them a chance to reconsider or choose another painter. And you get a chance to overcome objections in person.
3. You have the opportunity to scope out extra work.
4. You can put them on the schedule right there, giving them a feeling of a done deal.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

y.painting said:


> Maybe I'm dealing with different customers (ie simpler jobs), but ~ 9 in 10 of the estimates we give are written up on the spot and presented during the same meeting.
> 
> No need to email/fax or visit for a second time just to present the estimate. I think visiting a second time just to present a simple estimate is overkill, it can be done the first time around.
> 
> ...


 
It sounds great. We are not that good - yet. All of my proposals / contracts for more then a couple of rooms come with an attached spreadsheet. Eventually, we'll have a laptop and printer in the vehicle. So, we can do it on the spot. I'd still email them the electronic version though. 

Some people want to correspond via email vs. face to face or phone. For example, we completed a home a few weeks ago. The client was moving into it. I spent about 1.5 hours with him and his wife during the "estimate". They simply were not sure what they wanted. They wanted me to quote everything - Walls / Ceilings / Trim. This home was about 4500 sq. ft. I sent them an email with a spreadsheet attached. Each room was broken down with a sepearate price for the walls, ceiling, trim, closet. They ate this sh!t up. At the bottom of the spreadsheet was the sum of everything. This allowed them to simply delete a ceiling in this room or exclude the trim in that room etc... It automatically updated their sum (total). Seriously, I believe this, alone, played a part in them choosing us.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> It sounds great. We are not that good - yet. All of my proposals / contracts for more then a couple of rooms come with an attached spreadsheet. Eventually, we'll have a laptop and printer in the vehicle. So, we can do it on the spot. I'd still email them the electronic version though.
> 
> Some people want to correspond via email vs. face to face or phone. For example, we completed a home a few weeks ago. The client was moving into it. I spent about 1.5 hours with him and his wife during the "estimate". They simply were not sure what they wanted. They wanted me to quote everything - Walls / Ceilings / Trim. This home was about 4500 sq. ft. I sent them an email with a spreadsheet attached. Each room was broken down with a sepearate price for the walls, ceiling, trim, closet. They ate this sh!t up. At the bottom of the spreadsheet was the sum of everything. This allowed them to simply delete a ceiling in this room or exclude the trim in that room etc... It automatically updated their sum (total). Seriously, I believe this, alone, played a part in them choosing us.


 
I like that concept! Did you make the spreadsheet? Is it seperate from the invoice? (does sound like a pain)


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

y.painting said:


> Maybe I'm dealing with different customers (ie simpler jobs), but ~ 9 in 10 of the estimates we give are written up on the spot and presented during the same meeting.
> 
> No need to email/fax or visit for a second time just to present the estimate. I think visiting a second time just to present a simple estimate is overkill, it can be done the first time around.
> 
> ...


I guarantee my prices so I prefer not to give a firm one on-the-spot. It's too easy to miscalculate something or forget something here or there - and of course the HO won't say anything if you do. 

I prefer to give an 'estimated price', then if they're good with it I tell them I will review everything and forward a 'quote' via email or fax.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Sometimes its also nice to be able to go back to your office and compare the project to similar projects you have done. In my area, there are different "types" of houses, and over time you develop a good bit of history and data in quickbooks that is helpful going forward. I wouldnt want to spend time sitting in a customers driveway doing that. But it does sound like some people are very successful in pricing on the spot and thats awesome.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> I like that concept! Did you make the spreadsheet? Is it seperate from the invoice? (does sound like a pain)


 
BB: Check your PM.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> BB: Check your PM.


I saw a thread in the Biz Zone criticizing Fresh for not sharing info with others but being quick on the take. It is refreshing to see that this is not the case.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

fresh coat said:


> I was, in no way, suggesting you were being intrusive. Do you work in a "small town" type of atmoshere?


I dont consider my area to be small town, but I think my customers prefer the "small town atmosphere" and personalized service we provide.

And please dont think I take comments or criticism personally, I dont. I know what works for me...and yeah, is some aspects I am a "dinosaur". I just dont feel a necessity to change something that is working.

I would probably have a different aspect on things if I wasnt well established and that is why I take an interest in reading and thinking out others input into this part of the business. In alot of ways, I'm really grateful that I dont have to start over or rethink my business model.

Wolf


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> I saw a thread in the Biz Zone criticizing Fresh for not sharing info with others but being quick on the take. It is refreshing to see that this is not the case.


Rule number one: What is said in the zone must stay in the zone. Otherwise, why have the zone? OK, so it is not a rule but it should be.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

fresh coat said:


> Rule number one: What is said in the zone must stay in the zone. Otherwise, why have the zone? OK, so it is not a rule but it should be.


Well, without going into any detail, you have proven them all wrong!


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I saw a thread in the Biz Zone criticizing Fresh for not sharing info with others but being quick on the take. It is refreshing to see that this is not the case.


 
One may not have any info, therefore nothing to share.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> One may not have any info, therefore nothing to share.


Well I think its clear thats not the case.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

If you payed for valuable information would you share it to the world for free?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> If you payed for valuable information would you share it to the world for free?


I paid for all of my information, in one form or another. I share it for free, granted its not that good and I dont have much of it. But what I do have, ends up in the community knowledge pool.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Sir, I do believe that you are making my point.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> Sir, I do believe that you are making my point.


I'm not pickin up what your layin down...can you break it out for me?


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> If you payed for valuable information would you share it to the world for free?


Givers gain - I think I may have heard that from BNI. But, in general, I would share with anyone I thought was sincere. Not the general public though. I created the spreadsheet as a means to be more efficient and consistent. There is nothing technical or elaborate about it.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I toy with the idea of doing a estimate on sight, but I still do the visit to estimate and e-mail the invoice. Some jobs I could do on-site, but I have horrendous handwriting. I do have a tablet PC and portable printer, but in the cold months I think frozen ink, condensation from a cold computer, etc would be problematic for doing it on site. I also like to have time to think it over on most estimates. I think I would have to go to a full 2 visit estiamte process before I would go to a one stop close, but I really do not like the idea of how much time that would take for most jobs.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

DeanV said:


> I toy with the idea of doing a estimate on sight, but I still do the visit to estimate and e-mail the invoice. Some jobs I could do on-site, but I have horrendous handwriting. I do have a tablet PC and portable printer, but in the cold months I think frozen ink, condensation from a cold computer, etc would be problematic for doing it on site. I also like to have time to think it over on most estimates. I think *I would have to go to a full 2 visit estiamte process before I would go to a one stop close, but I really do not like the idea of how much time that would take for most jobs.*




I like the idea of a real time estimate. But, I don't like sitting in my ride calculating (don't like the way it looks). Plus, I like to think about it as well. 

We are doing a couple of rooms (repeat client) in a mansion in a great 'hood next week. When I was doing the estimate, I noticed a lot of cleveland browns paraphanelia in the lil boys rooms. I am thinking about buying some stuff from fatheads and sending it to them as means of saying "thank you". My point is, I came up with this idea while I was at the comfort of my office preparing the estimate. Don't know if I would have thought of it in my ride trying to crunch numbers. 

DeanV: I don't understand your last sentence. What do you mean? Thanks.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

When providing the estimate we need to take the "*we*" out of it. It's not about what *we* think is easier, or how much more time *we* think *we* need. 

It's all about the customer. The customer was gracious enough to provide you with a slice of thier busy day. They invited you because they are considering purchasing your service. They are already in a shopping mode. Get them sold and scheduled while you can. Every time you wait, you allow obstacles to come between you and the sale.

Give them an estimate that is half filled in by hand and tell them the agreement (I don't use contract) will be mailed. Have a field or a small line at the bottom of the estimate form. If at all possible get a signature right away, or as soon a possible. It gives the feeling of commitment.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I am one who will measure and sell what I will do during the visit, I then take the numbers home and generate a proposal. I oft go over the number twice. My customers seam to appreciate the care and time to assure accuracy.

Maybe it's different with wallcovering because I am also specifying how much materials they will need to order. Wallpaper can be very expensive. One bolt error can mean a difference of $50 to $500. 

OH, here's a hint, be on time to the estimate. Early in my career as I walked through the door at EXACTLY the time I said I would be there, the HO said, "You're the only one that's been on time, you have the job"


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