# Advance B.M. failure.



## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

Long time lurker, first post.

I should preface this by stating that I never had paint fail on me, no matter which product I used.

I've used Advance for a long time with zero problems. I'm painting a whole house. All the trim and doors were stained, except the master bedroom, which was previously painted with latex semi. Home owner just bought the house, so I don't know what product was used, or age, but paint looked standard. There where no red flags.

The advance applied over primer is solid. Advance over pre-painted surfaces scratches off the way latex would do when applied directly over oil. The trim is 2 colors. One for the sashes and doors, and another for the casings/sills/frames. For the second color I used the Pro-classic from S.W. That is solid too. 

The prep was standard: sand/vacuum and paint. This was 2 weeks ago. I know the paint needs 30 days to fully cure, however it should not come off when scratched with light pressure.

The project is in PA. Since the same paint applied over primer is good, I don't really have a case that the paint is defective. The color is pre-mixed standard black.

I'm hoping for advice from the better minds here. Anyone else had this problem? What are my options now? Will B.M. reimburse the cost to correct?

Thank you in advance!

Edit: re-coat time was 72 hours. Sashes brushed, doors sprayed. No extender added.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Did it fail to bond only on the sashes or were the doors problematic too?


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

slinger58 said:


> Did it fail to bond only on the sashes or were the doors problematic too?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Everywhere, including doors. Entry door on master bedroom was existing finished half stain/half paint. Paint only comes off where it was prepainted.

Since this may be confusing here is the bottom line:

1. Paint doesn't seem to be defective, or a bad batch, since it worked as expected on areas freshly primed.

2. Paint failed over previous latex areas only. Previous coating is not a issue, since pro classic from SW stuck under same conditions.

3. No chemicals were used for prep. Sand/vacuum/cloth wiped.

Really a WTF moment.

Since this is my first post here and this is a project I really enjoyed;some more pictures. This room was a former hunters trophy showcase.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

reimagine said:


> Long time lurker, first post.
> 
> I should preface this by stating that I never had paint fail on me, no matter which product I used.
> 
> ...


Its not clear to me from your description what the issue is. You should get in touch with your local BM rep and have him take a look. That's one of the primary jobs to travel to job sites..

What will BM reimburse? Depends on who your rep is... at a minimum i would expect them to comp you a gallon or whatever you need.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm kinda clueless then. I will say that Advance in dark colors has had issues with slow drying/curing that you don't have with lighter colors.


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Its not clear to me from your description what the issue is. You should get in touch with your local BM rep and have him take a look. That's one of the primary jobs to travel to job sites..
> 
> What will BM reimburse? Depends on who your rep is... at a minimum i would expect them to comp you a gallon or whatever you need.


I've made a second post to clarify things. 

I'm not concerned about being reimbursed for 1 gl of paint. I have a problem with 5 windows and 5 doors. The cost to remove the advance and repaint is in the thousands.


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

slinger58 said:


> I'm kinda clueless then. I will say that Advance in dark colors has had issues with slow drying/curing that you don't have with lighter colors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely true from my experience too. Except my supplier said that the black being stock, it has same cure time as white.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

reimagine said:


> Absolutely true from my experience too. Except my supplier said that the black being stock, it has same cure time as white.




Sounds doubtful to me. Maybe Coco will give an opinion on that.


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## kerryman71 (Oct 9, 2017)

Only times I've used Advance were with a primer, and never had issues. Did you use a deglosser on the semi-gloss paint prior to painting? I'm thinking that could be the issue.

John


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Did you apply it the same thickness? Same ambient temperature? This is quite a mystery i must say. First thing is to eliminate anything that might have been different between the application on the primed surfaces and the previously painted surfaces. Sounds like you may have done that, but think. Was there anything else that might have been different from the painted surfaces and the primed surfaces. I'm wondering if there had been a previous cleaner applied to all the surfaces that the primer was effective at sealing. ? Maybe? 

Or something leaching that the primer sealed?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

kerryman71 said:


> Only times I've used Advance were with a primer, and never had issues. Did you use a deglosser on the semi-gloss paint prior to painting? I'm thinking that could be the issue.
> 
> John


This could be the problem. Maybe.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

It appears the previously painted surface had either a contaminate on it, or a component in it's resin that isn't allowing the Advance film formation of the alkyd resin as it separates from the waterborne vehicle during coalescing.

Have you tried forced, and slightly heated, air (like a hair drier) on areas to see if it helps cure the Advance?

One thing I learned about Advance, is that it requires airflow during curing.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

slinger58 said:


> Sounds doubtful to me. Maybe Coco will give an opinion on that.


When you call into the HP coating department: premixed colors have a "very similar" cure time which typically means <5%.

Advance has pretty good adhesion out of the can, so to me it sounds like some kind of surface contamination.

Get your Rep's cell number and have him take a look at the job site.


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree that this is the only logical explanation. But why would a different paint, pro classic SW perform under similar conditions?

I'm not a fan of it since regal classic bm is much faster/better.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

reimagine said:


> I agree that this is the only logical explanation. But why would a different paint, pro classic SW perform under similar conditions?
> 
> I'm not a fan of it since regal classic bm is much faster/better.


which Pro classic? Alkyd, acrylic, or dual dispersion? (i think they all suck but you may not have a lot of options depending on where you are.)


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

I believe you mentioned doors and windows were previously stained? My bet is on some sort of cleaner like pledge used on all the woodwork. Its a really nice place, so people tend to over care for their stuff. Even sanding won't get all that crap off, then the paint can't take hold.

I can tell you did an awesome job, anyone with a Festool setup is legit.:vs_cool:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I believe you mentioned doors and windows were previously stained? My bet is on some sort of cleaner like pledge used on all the woodwork. Its a really nice place, so people tend to over care for their stuff. Even sanding won't get all that crap off, then the paint can't take hold.
> 
> I can tell you did an awesome job, anyone with a Festool setup is legit.:vs_cool:


That's what i was thinking. A cleaner like Pledge or the dreaded Murphy's oils soap that the primer sealed and kept the Advance from reacting to it.


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

PACman said:


> which Pro classic? Alkyd, acrylic, or dual dispersion? (i think they all suck but you may not have a lot of options depending on where you are.)


The acrylic.

I think CA has the answer: 'a component in it's resin that isn't allowing the Advance film formation of the alkyd resin as it separates from the waterborne vehicle during coalescing.'

Looks like I have no recourse, and will have to eat the cost. The previous HO were cleaning maniacs. I've found 8 different cleaners in a closet. Everything from pledge, bona, to fiberglass cleaner. They are in their sixties. But it may not even been them, but their cleaning lady. Who knows what they used to clean?

Obviously dry/mechanical prep didn't do this job. Should have used TSP, but this kind of issues are beyond rare. You can't bid every job for maximum prep. How many people clean their windows sashes/doors regularly enough for this to be a problem?

Hopefully this helped others here.


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## reimagine (Sep 11, 2009)

MikeCalifornia said:


> I believe you mentioned doors and windows were previously stained? My bet is on some sort of cleaner like pledge used on all the woodwork. Its a really nice place, so people tend to over care for their stuff. Even sanding won't get all that crap off, then the paint can't take hold.
> 
> I can tell you did an awesome job, anyone with a Festool setup is legit.:vs_cool:


Thank you! All the stained wood which would be cleaned with Pledge has no problem. 

Whoever did the cleaning probably used that on the painted surfaces too.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

reimagine said:


> Thank you! All the stained wood which would be cleaned with Pledge has no problem.
> 
> Whoever did the cleaning probably used that on the painted surfaces too.


I re-read the post, and it sounds like the stained surfaces were primed with no problems going over, but just the prepainted areas were the areas of issue. I'm betting on some cleaning agent that was used on the painted areas. Like you said, who knows, but thinking that would have to wipe out windows? Not on anyone's radar. We don't have the sash window type out here but I use regular krud kutter cut 50/50 with water after we sand doors and jambs, especially ones with lots of kids and pets. It works pretty nice, but even though it is supposed to be non-rinse, I still do.


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## WestCoast99 (May 8, 2012)

Dark colors take forever to cure and when they do it's often not a very hard cure. I don't precisely know why that is but it has been a problem for me my entire career. Browns, blacks, dark reds, purples, etc will scratch off for weeks and will almost always be more sensitive to abrasion than whites or off-whites. This has been my experience with almost all lines of architectural paint. Automotive and aircraft paints seem to hold up no matter what. Maybe we should start using that stuff instead. I have cabinet re-paints that were brown. It was standard clean, sand, and re-coat with a waterborne enamel. Cured in my shop for over a week before I could even deliver the doors. It still was not nearly as durable as the same brand of paint in a white. Ridiculous.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

WestCoast99 said:


> Dark colors take forever to cure and when they do it's often not a very hard cure. I don't precisely know why that is but it has been a problem for me my entire career. Browns, blacks, dark reds, purples, etc will scratch off for weeks and will almost always be more sensitive to abrasion than whites or off-whites. This has been my experience with almost all lines of architectural paint. Automotive and aircraft paints seem to hold up no matter what. Maybe we should start using that stuff instead. I have cabinet re-paints that were brown. It was standard clean, sand, and re-coat with a waterborne enamel. Cured in my shop for over a week before I could even deliver the doors. It still was not nearly as durable as the same brand of paint in a white. Ridiculous.


BM colorants are pretty good but excess dry time will be the case until paint manufacturers switch to 100% powder pigments


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

automotive and aircraft paints are tinted by intermixing as well. So when you make a color you aren't just taking a base and adding colorant to it, you are actually taking different colors of the factory made paint and mixing them together to get to the final color. They use very little if any colorant when they are mixed at a store. That's why they hold up so much better.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

I had the exact situation on some interior railings last month. They were previously painted in oil and were Tudor brown. Was changing color to a grey. For some reason I didn’t trust it and decided to do an adhesion text first. I sanded and cleaned a test area, applied the sample and let it dry overnight. Was easily able to scratch it off the next day. I ended up fully priming it before proceeding any further. I still don’t have any idea why it happened and hope someone can shed some light for the both of us.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I think advance needs a week for a reasonable adhesion test. Slow to sure.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I would give it another week just in case it is a slower cure than normal. I might even try the force cure with a hair dryer. I have seen surface contamination with furniture polish, Murphy's oil soap, wax, and silicones that are used in car detailing. Hired home cleaners may will use these instead of properly cleaning a surface just to make it shine. I probably missed it but what type of primer did you use in the areas that adhered well?


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