# masonite metal doors-big prob.



## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

ok. really I have been painting since 1990. I am having some major learning curve. I DO NOT get to make every choice on this NC job. 

I was brought two doors from a separate job to work on at this exsiting job. I was told they were pre-primed metal clad. I called SW to inquire into what to use...I was told I could use either DTM or All Surface Enamel. I did not want to use oil and I wanted to spray them at the shop.........

there was not time to take them from their 2nd location to a third location further away to spray. It is color of Bitter -chocolate which is Ultra deep base....I know I am in for atleast 3.---

I did not do further investigation on these doors and proceeded with the DTM( I would have gone the direction of All surface enamel)

Now I spent the day stripping them as it did not adhere at all....and the stipple is way terrible. I have used a tight-weenie nap to roll an exterior door and lay it off tightly so it lays nicely and has a minor stipple.

These doors are being used for a pool house bathroom....not that that changes anything but it is not like a fron door or interior doors.

I did not do enough homework. I still get paid. It was not ultimately my call- but I am pissed, humilitated and shocked with this blunder.

I have stripped the six panel smooth surface but have to go back and do the inserts and then I will power wash the stripper off.....

My answer is simple---it is always best to use a primer REGARDLESS in most circumstances.......don't think a factory finish means diddle.

would there have been some manufacterers directions upon delivery of the doots from - the sticker to the side saide masonite and lingo for fire protection rating.....

What sucks is it is ok to make mistake- 
and have to redo it all- which just creates problems that could have been overlooked.

Give some input or advice ......please.

I have an airless-was concerned about having to buy even more material than one gallon to keep pressure and spray up........

have access to an HVLP but it is set up for lacquer spray......how difficult is the change over?

How to deal with this as a brush and roll job without oil and a nice lay off with the material after rolling.....I know about extenders/thinners....
what would be a bomb product that works like butter?

Is All Surface Enamel easier to work?
Is a primer necessary(contradiction)

wounded painter
sagebrush


I wanted to add that I can thin out oil and brush it out good enough under ideal cicumstances--but hate doing oil and did not have to wait between the coatings.....


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Good to know SW didn't limit themselves to just SuperPaint and Adhesion Primer when comes to adhesion. 

I'll reply later. I'm driving.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Years ago I had the same issue with a masonite brand metal door from HD. I ended up scraping the paint off eith a putty knife, sanding, priming amd repainting. I think the hd doors tried to be primed or finished with the same eggshell sheen baked on finish by the factory.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Get a pro shot, or a Tru coat plus electric.

How long was it between applying the paint and the issue with adhesion? DTM's dry hard, but are really soft when they first dry.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

you guys are going to post and I thnak you, however I notice that I am so mad with my own steps that nothing anyone can say will make it go away.

It is not only the anger at removing the paint but the difficulty of stripping them...it is a goopin' f' mess.

and my ideas of how I 'feel' about it make sense to me.....

I would have preferred to move the doors to an incognito location...as in I don't want the whole world to see this blunder......
I don't think it makes for good business to have an ugly lingering issue in someone else's garage.....

I will however take the advice as to not duplicate the error and MAKE myself take the necessary steps to allow time to configue a 'what to do plan when there is the slightest apprehension/doubt.

the day I put on three coats, at the end of the day...I noticed bad adhesion accidently.....and I was patient to check again this morning.

Please don't give me the 14 day cure bull**** time frame.......I don't care how hard it gets!

and the texture was screwy.....I am interested to see if anyone else chimes in with the ability to brush/roll without funkyness texture from the product.....

I could peel away huge bits like saran wrap.......

further more not too sure of the proshot, but if it is the junk from tradewinds...or the homeowner/remodeling sprayers that are being sold at SW-you can forget about me buying one. 

Either I find my way around the issue OR i find the money to get the right tools OR I don't take on the work.

Can't remember WHEN I had this kind of issue in my entire profession/history.

I was also told that I should use the adhesion primer.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Ok, its not 14 days, its closer to 30 with most acrylics. What's the recoat time on that product?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

If you want, hvlp cup guns are easy to change between lacquer and acrylic, not much passade length to worry about.


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## RPS (May 13, 2010)

Dtm sucks to roll. Leaves a retarded stiple. You can go with oil and roll with a 1/4 inch nap rolor and get a nice finish. I wonder if you should wipe them down with lacquer? Is the skin masonite or metal?


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

The DTM's I've used, I've been told by others not to roll, and it said on the can to use a very thin roller, like 1/4", which it sound like you did. This obviously shouldn't affect adhesion though. 

If you have a difficult color I think it makes sense to use a tinted primer first- it's cheaper than the finish paint and has the added benefit of providing bond and good tooth for subsequent coats. Others may have a better idea on this, but I don't really se where you can go wrong with a primer, only that _sometimes_ it's unnecessary. 

I know how it sucks to have outside pressures and constraints on a job, especially when they contradict your first instincts on how to get the job done well. But I'm not sure I'm exactly following your problem here. Adhesion was the big problem, but you also seem dissatisfied with the finish you got. Airless may have saved you time and given better results, but not fixed the adhesion problems.


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## mastr (Apr 15, 2011)

dtm performs better than all surface enamel.

a better and heavier duty option (than DTM) would be to prime with pro-cryl and top coat with a catalyzed epoxy


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't have a conversion on the HVLP available right now. I would have to have SW order it for me.

The store here is limited. I wanted a new spray hose and they don't have one.......and something I call a whip for flexibility attaching to the gun and hose....don't have that either. There must not be alot of spraying going on in this area, except maybe industrial...like chemical plants.etc.

anyway......

I have the airless and can go to a smaller fan size and output.

and I may have to buy extra material to keep the lines pressured.

unless someone chimes in with a workable primer for metal doors and a top coat that is somewhat more workable than DTM.

the precat epoxy-is that brushable? I have never used that before.....

I looked it up online but didn't get applications....


i APPRECIATE any and all input, as this has been a toughy for me to digest.

where did you go Jack pauhl? are you still driving


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## mastr (Apr 15, 2011)

pro-cryl is an excellent option for a primer

pre-catalyzed epoxy would be the next step above DTM and is an entry level epoxy. (you can brush/roll it)

catalyzed epoxies are a step above the precat in terms of durability and performance.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

ok master-

it can be brushed and rolled? How textury can it get?

just using a tight nap with basic latex on a panelled wood door...I can get it to lay down fairly nice....

DTM- no way...

so how nice does it lay down and what kind of workability might I have to flow with the smooth sections of the door?

I will look into this....

yes!yes!


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## mastr (Apr 15, 2011)

i thought we were talking about metal doors, i take back my statement....pro-cryl is not going to be a good primer for wood paneling


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

NO- the doors are metal, I am just saying that I can get by rolling brushing regular six panel smooth wood doors by rolling tight or brushing with with thinned oil.......


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

Problem solved.
stripper
powerwash
primer.

damn-its all down hill from here.


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## Contractor Jeff (Apr 8, 2011)

Just an observation and my sympathies. The factory primed surface SHOULD have had enough built in "tack" to allow any paint to adhere (you would think). 

One factor that may have contributed to the lack of adhesion is the deep base used.


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## ellas70 (Apr 4, 2011)

i coat the doors with gripper then use exterior paint to go over the gripper
dtm dry to fast and i dont like look it give when it dries dries


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## Cam_22 (8 mo ago)

Thank you for this post! I am new to PaintTalk so I apologize if I'm not supposed to respond on an old post? I'm dealing with this exact issue now. I typically have done residential repaints and hadn't come across too many brand new pre-primed Masonite steel doors. So I prepped how I would normally, a light scuff sand, and clean. Since they had the factory primer on it I didn't see a reason to prime again and the jobsite manager didn't want me to spend the extra time/money anyway. I ended up having a massive adhesion problem and I'm pretty embarrassed about it (personally mainly). The paint scratches right off with the slightest scrape/bump of anything. The finish looks like garbage too, almost like the paint was separating as I applied it and was tacking-up in a weird way. It was clearly a bad choice of product/process but I'm curious exactly why if anyone can help. I used SuperPaint Exterior Satin and it was the Ultra Deep Base (Brown). 

After I realized I had a problem, I looked up the Masonite instructions and they said to clean it with acetone or mineral spirits (I used mineral spirits). Let it dry and hit it with the SuperPaint. Their instructions also said priming was not necessary and to use a *100% Acrylic Latex* (which I guess SuperPaint is NOT) so I'm wondering if this is where I went wrong? I'm wondering if I had used a full acrylic if that would have solved it without priming? Or if these doors do indeed NEED to be RE-primed like the original post's solution says?


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Cam_22 said:


> Thank you for this post! I am new to PaintTalk so I apologize if I'm not supposed to respond on an old post? I'm dealing with this exact issue now. I typically have done residential repaints and hadn't come across too many brand new pre-primed Masonite steel doors. So I prepped how I would normally, a light scuff sand, and clean. Since they had the factory primer on it I didn't see a reason to prime again and the jobsite manager didn't want me to spend the extra time/money anyway. I ended up having a massive adhesion problem and I'm pretty embarrassed about it (personally mainly). The paint scratches right off with the slightest scrape/bump of anything. The finish looks like garbage too, almost like the paint was separating as I applied it and was tacking-up in a weird way. It was clearly a bad choice of product/process but I'm curious exactly why if anyone can help. I used SuperPaint Exterior Satin and it was the Ultra Deep Base (Brown).
> 
> After I realized I had a problem, I looked up the Masonite instructions and they said to clean it with acetone or mineral spirits (I used mineral spirits). Let it dry and hit it with the SuperPaint. Their instructions also said priming was not necessary and to use a *100% Acrylic Latex* (which I guess SuperPaint is NOT) so I'm wondering if this is where I went wrong? I'm wondering if I had used a full acrylic if that would have solved it without priming? Or if these doors do indeed NEED to be RE-primed like the original post's solution says?


I wouldnt ever clean anything with mineral spirits. Its an oil. I dont trust it to not leave a residue. I also would have skipped the primer, but I would have stepped up the paint to a DTM. That said, I dont see why superpaint would have that bad of an adhesion problem...


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I agree with Woodco. There is no reason SuperPaint in and of itself would have such poor adhesion onto a pre-primed surface, but I am confused by several things you said…

Is the door metal, or Masonite? if it was pre- primed, there would be absolutely no reason to use acetone or Mineral spirits. Something is missing here from your description.

Masonite is a very smooth, hard surface, and absolutely needs a primer if it does not already have primer. I typically scuff Masonite prior to priming, if it is raw wood.


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## Cam_22 (8 mo ago)

Thanks for your replies. The door is a Masonite Brand Steel door, that has been pre-primed. I've attached a picture from the manufacturer's painting instructions. I used mineral spirits to clean per their specifications because of the paint not adhering after the first one I did. It made a slight difference but not enough. So I'm curious if using a 100% acrylic paint like they recommend would have made the difference. The SuperPaint almost reacted like it was on vinyl and I know SuperPaint is not good for vinyl unless you request the vinyl-safe formula (which this was not). So I'm not sure what is in SuperPaint vs a 100% acrylic that might not bond as well to their primer.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Cam_22 said:


> Thanks for your replies. The door is a Masonite Brand Steel door, that has been pre-primed. I've attached a picture from the manufacturer's painting instructions. I used mineral spirits to clean per their specifications because of the paint not adhering after the first one I did. It made a slight difference but not enough. So I'm curious if using a 100% acrylic paint like they recommend would have made the difference. The SuperPaint almost reacted like it was on vinyl and I know SuperPaint is not good for vinyl unless you request the vinyl-safe formula (which this was not). So I'm not sure what is in SuperPaint vs a 100% acrylic that might not bond as well to their primer.
> View attachment 113941


That makes more sense.

you would want to clean with Mineral Spirits for oil based paint, and acetone for waterbased paint.

oil solvents and water are incompatible. If the mineral spirits left a residue it might explain the adhesion problems.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Cam_22 said:


> Thanks for your replies. The door is a Masonite Brand Steel door, that has been pre-primed. I've attached a picture from the manufacturer's painting instructions. I used mineral spirits to clean per their specifications because of the paint not adhering after the first one I did. It made a slight difference but not enough. So I'm curious if using a 100% acrylic paint like they recommend would have made the difference. The SuperPaint almost reacted like it was on vinyl and I know SuperPaint is not good for vinyl unless you request the vinyl-safe formula (which this was not). So I'm not sure what is in SuperPaint vs a 100% acrylic that might not bond as well to their primer.


FYI, vinyl safe has to do with colorants. dark colors on vinyl siding can warp from heat. It has nothing to do with the type of paint.


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