# VOC babies



## Painterpaintspaint (Mar 2, 2018)

Has anyone come across the situation when you need to use an oil based or shellac primer to properly do the job BUT the HO doesn’t want smell or fumes in the house? The HO recently had a child and I am going to be refinishing their cabinets. I told them I will be brushing and rolling the cabinet boxes in order to eliminate overspray and taking the cabinet doors offsite to spray. The cabinets are stained and varnished and they want them painted so obviously to achieve the best results I need to use an oil based primer because I’m not sanding the stain and varnish off of everything lol.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

If the varnish is in good shape and acrylic bonding primer can work fine. I’ve used the Bin Advanced, and Stix before. 


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## Painterpaintspaint (Mar 2, 2018)

Is that low VOC? They want me to use a low VOC primer for their cabinets and from my experience the smelly and more volitile the primer the better it is lol but I completely understand where they are coming from if I was in their position with a newborn I would want a low or no VOC as well. The problem is I have yet to find a low or no VOC primer that can work aswell as an oil or shellac base. My Sherwin Williams rep told me about a low VOC oil based multi purpose primer today I guess I will give that a test drive. Has anyone ever used that primer before and how was it?


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

VOC laws we currently have do little to nothing for health. the regulations are for environmental protection. Yes, a lot of the environmentally bad VOCs are also bad for health. SO having less of them is good. but there are organic compounds that are bad for health that are not regulated, because they do not cause as much hard to the environment. There are also non-organic compounds that are harmful, that are not regulated in the same way. So low or no VOC labels do not always mean a healthier product. VOC regs are also "per container". So a quart can be labeled "Low VOC", but puts out 4Xs the amount of VOCs when you compare gallon for gallon. Don't just go by the labeling, if they truly want a healthier product you need to do some home work.

If they are worried about their young children around the fumes, they should take their children out for the day regardless of what product you use. The work area should also be ventilated to prevent odors from lingering. 

You will have to balance what they are asking for with what will hold up over time. Mst people are ok with not being around for a day or 2, if it means their cabinets will hold up better. If the customer insist they be around, and there be no fumes; chances are they will also be mad when it does not hold up. it may be a situation where you can not make every one happy. 

if you are looking for a water based primer to use in place of oil or shellac, I would go with stix too.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

stix is low voc, low odor and also 0 stain blocking so yeah your clear coat has to be in good shape.

what does low voc oil primer mean? afaik oil primers need to be <350g/L these days and would be considered low VOC 10 years ago. There are odorless alkd primers on the market but still relatively high voc compared to water based.

many threads on the subject already but voc's have nothing to do with odor or health. zero voc paint chips are NOT ok to eat!


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## ThreeSistersPainting (Jan 7, 2017)

I have done a cabinet set that was requested to be low VOC. Creating a solid booth with the correct ventilation will help the process, and most of the time appreciated by the HO. Doesnt have to be fancy, I purchased extendable wall poles that create a wall in 10 minutes.

Have looked into a water-base sanding sealer? After I cleaned and sanded my cabinets I used a water-based sandable undercoater. Then sprayed two-coats of durapoxy.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

rosespainting said:


> VOC laws we currently have do little to nothing for health. the regulations are for environmental protection. Yes, a lot of the environmentally bad VOCs are also bad for health. SO having less of them is good. but there are organic compounds that are bad for health that are not regulated, because they do not cause as much hard to the environment. There are also non-organic compounds that are harmful, that are not regulated in the same way. So low or no VOC labels do not always mean a healthier product. VOC regs are also "per container". So a quart can be labeled "Low VOC", but puts out 4Xs the amount of VOCs when you compare gallon for gallon. Don't just go by the labeling, if they truly want a healthier product you need to do some home work.
> 
> If they are worried about their young children around the fumes, they should take their children out for the day regardless of what product you use. The work area should also be ventilated to prevent odors from lingering.
> 
> ...


Don't forget, the Titanium dioxide pigment used in any primer is a known carcinogen. (at least to the state of California, that is!).


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Painterpaintspaint said:


> Is that low VOC? They want me to use a low VOC primer for their cabinets and from my experience the smelly and more volitile the primer the better it is lol but I completely understand where they are coming from if I was in their position with a newborn I would want a low or no VOC as well. The problem is I have yet to find a low or no VOC primer that can work aswell as an oil or shellac base. My Sherwin Williams rep told me about a low VOC oil based multi purpose primer today I guess I will give that a test drive. Has anyone ever used that primer before and how was it?


VOC'S have nothing to do with how something smells. 

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## Painterpaintspaint (Mar 2, 2018)

Yea I’m aware


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Painterpaintspaint said:


> Has anyone come across the situation when you need to use an oil based or shellac primer to properly do the job BUT the HO doesn’t want smell or fumes in the house? The HO recently had a child and I am going to be refinishing their cabinets. I told them I will be brushing and rolling the cabinet boxes in order to eliminate overspray and taking the cabinet doors offsite to spray. The cabinets are stained and varnished and they want them painted so obviously to achieve the best results I need to use an oil based primer because I’m not sanding the stain and varnish off of everything lol.


Use all low VOC primers and finish coats and explain to them the pro's and con's of each, let them decide with the caveat that they sign a waiver if the low VOC products fail prematurely!


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Be very very very careful using a primer like Stix does nothing to block or hold back bleed through of all stains. Regardless of the shape of the clearcoat. Don’t get me wrong I’m in your situation allot. We hardly ever spray boxes , frames. Can’t do it as the homeowner wants use of there kitchen. We use Aqualock or even a bullseyes 123. They will do allot more to hold back a stain than Stix. Sorry but Stix is wayyyyy overrated . Just my HO. We have used Stix many many times but there’s other primers like I just mentioned that work just as good if not better. Oh as for odor. Paint Sensations is your friend we use it daily . HO”s love it. Recently did a job where I wanted to use FPE oil primer. I added a packet Of PS to the can( mechanical shaken works bettter ) odor was minimal and does not effect finished product. I did a blog post few years back about PS
Been using it ever since when needed.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@thinkpainting/nick - Thanks for the tips! How far do you normally take down the finish when you use Bullseye 123 as a primer? What would be acceptable longevity of your final product?


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

Tprice2193 said:


> @*thinkpainting/nick* - Thanks for the tips! How far do you normally take down the finish when you use Bullseye 123 as a primer? What would be acceptable longevity of your final product?


 
bullseye 123 is a great all purpose primer, we use it a lot. you will probably need 2 coats. Though you would most likely need 2 coats of stix, or any water based primer too. Bullseye 123 does not sand as easy though.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

wow. I guess that one year old cabinet door that guy brought me that was peeling like crazy absolutely couldn't have been bullseye 123 than could it? That's strange, because he was the one who used it in the first place.


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

PACman said:


> wow. I guess that one year old cabinet door that guy brought me that was peeling like crazy absolutely couldn't have been bullseye 123 than could it? That's strange, because he was the one who used it in the first place.


 
poor prep, is not the fault of the primer.. Bullseye 123 would not be my choice for cabinets, even though I like it, I think there are better products for cabinets. This thread is about alternative products to use in place of an oil or shellac based product though.

no matter what primer is being used, I would sand with fine grit, and then use wil-bond. But the wil-bond would defeat the whole point of going low voc... Your peeling cabinet door, may have been the result of trying to use all low voc products. I don't see how you can get painted cabinets to hold up with out toxic products, either in prep or in paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

rosespainting said:


> poor prep, is not the fault of the primer.. Bullseye 123 would not be my choice for cabinets, even though I like it, I think there are better products for cabinets. This thread is about alternative products to use in place of an oil or shellac based product though.
> 
> no matter what primer is being used, I would sand with fine grit, and then use wil-bond. But the wil-bond would defeat the whole point of going low voc... Your peeling cabinet door, may have been the result of trying to use all low voc products. I don't see how you can get painted cabinets to hold up with out toxic products, either in prep or in paint.


I'm going to tell a cabinet shop that's been in business for 20 years that their prep was wrong? Really? He's the one who is saying he will never use that crap again not me. I started selling him Gripcoat a year ago. This was a job he did before he started buying from me. I'm going with the de-contented Bullseye 123 idea. Especially after a former Zinsser rep says the same thing.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

BIN is a lot like me....it's been around forever and it's smelly but it is still one of the best and will never really be able to be replaced.:biggrin:


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

PACman said:


> I'm going to tell a cabinet shop that's been in business for 20 years that their prep was wrong? Really? He's the one who is saying he will never use that crap again not me. I started selling him Gripcoat a year ago. This was a job he did before he started buying from me. I'm going with the de-contented Bullseye 123 idea. Especially after a former Zinsser rep says the same thing.


 
Why was a cabinet shop using 123 as their primer..? someone gave them some bad advice.. When I was spraying for a local cabinet shop, they used max prime from Gemini /coatings. last time I talk to them, they guy said he was thinking about trying Kilz Max Prime. 

which now that I remember talking to them, Kilz Maxprime may be the best bet for low odor water based primer.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Tprice2193 said:


> @thinkpainting/nick - Thanks for the tips! How far do you normally take down the finish when you use Bullseye 123 as a primer? What would be acceptable longevity of your final product?


First Aqualock would be my choice over 123. Sands better and smells less. If all I had access to over clearcoat and VOC babies were hiring me I would use 123. As far as 123 being trashed by others what do I know ? I’ve only been in business since 78 and Painting since 72. My point was Stix does noth8ng to block stains. And I would use Aqualock without hesitation and been using inslx for well over 25 years . Good luck.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Experience has nothing to do with how good products work when they've been recently reformulated.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Woodco - Exactly! about the time you get your process down either primer or topcoat will change. Then your guarantee of longevity and durability of a cabinet finish is pretty much theoretical. I expect a minimum of 5 years longevity. I have gotten much more but would not guarantee it. BIN is BIN not likely to see significant reformulation. SW topcoats....you will find out when you open the can and notice something different. You have prepped ready to spray and now due to an unannounced reformulation you have a "new" product you are testing....Client has given you $4,000 for a first class job so you roll the dice. Just curious what type of longevity would you expect out of a cabinet refinish? Would you put that in writing?


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

I don't know if it's an option for you, but for cabinets I use California/Muralo paints Ultra line. With a decent scuff, it will stick to anything and not unstick, and it has great coverage over stain. Sometimes I'll get the paint rep to shoot 2 ounces of black into the first can to help with hiding. But I've never run into a situation where it took more than 3 coats even on dark stain.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

PaPainter724 said:


> I don't know if it's an option for you, but for cabinets I use California/Muralo paints Ultra line. With a decent scuff, it will stick to anything and not unstick, and it has great coverage over stain. Sometimes I'll get the paint rep to shoot 2 ounces of black into the first can to help with hiding. But I've never run into a situation where it took more than 3 coats even on dark stain.


PaPainter, Are you using Cali Ultra or their Ultraplate? If your using Ultra how is it's blocking and cure time? As you may know, PAC claims the Ultraplate is superior in blocking, cure time and hardness.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

I use Ultra, although I've used Ultraplate as well to great results. Ultraplate is a step above, but I've personally never had a problem or single issue with Ultra, and our vendor is a bit smaller so he only carries things we specifically ask him to. Ultra hits that perfect spot between performance and price for us. However, yes, he is correct that Ultraplate is indeed a step up.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaPainter724 said:


> I use Ultra, although I've used Ultraplate as well to great results. Ultraplate is a step above, but I've personally never had a problem or single issue with Ultra, and our vendor is a bit smaller so he only carries things we specifically ask him to. Ultra hits that perfect spot between performance and price for us. However, yes, he is correct that Ultraplate is indeed a step up.


The biggest advantages to the Ultra is it comes in several sheens and can be tinted to all the colors. Ultraplate is only pastel colors and satin finish. I have had several painters use the Ultra on cabinets when they needed a darker color and they say it works quite well and is very durable. Considering the Ultra is technically a regular wall and trim paint it is quite a top notch cabinet paint as well.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

Yeah, I've never come across a situation where Ultra has failed me. It's the only paint I'll use for trim. I haven't found anything that pops like it does when you put it on trim. 

I love their NanoKote as well, although I'm not sure what California is calling it now that they're changing labels, if they changed the name.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PaPainter724 said:


> Yeah, I've never come across a situation where Ultra has failed me. It's the only paint I'll use for trim. I haven't found anything that pops like it does when you put it on trim.
> 
> I love their NanoKote as well, although I'm not sure what California is calling it now that they're changing labels, if they changed the name.


Nanokote is the new Ultra kitchen and bath line. Straight re-label.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

PACman said:


> PaPainter724 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I've never come across a situation where Ultra has failed me. It's the only paint I'll use for trim. I haven't found anything that pops like it does when you put it on trim.
> ...


Good to know. I love that paint. I know they also rebranded Ceramithane to FixAll Ceramithane. That's the best interior poly on the market in my humble opinion.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Experience has nothing to do with how good products work when they've been recently reformulated.


The primers I’m talking about have not been reformulated . Aqualock no not to my knowledge nor Stix or 123. Oil primers no Topcoat’s yes but not all. Allot depends on what part country your in and experience is everything in my opinion. I’ve used 123 with no issues and my wallcovers swear by it to double cut over it as it dries rock hard once cured. 

If someone has a bad experience ( that word again) with certain products then there opinions will differ.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> The primers I’m talking about have not been reformulated . Aqualock no not to my knowledge nor Stix or 123. Oil primers no Topcoat’s yes but not all. Allot depends on what part country your in and experience is everything in my opinion. I’ve used 123 with no issues and my wallcovers swear by it to double cut over it as it dries rock hard once cured.
> 
> If someone has a bad experience ( that word again) with certain products then there opinions will differ.


123 has absolutely been reformulated. Where have you been?


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Try and schedule the job when the clients are taking a vacation. 

Over time all of us have developed processes and have come to trust certain products. Stick with what you know works. 


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodco said:


> 123 has absolutely been reformulated. Where have you been?


Earth where you been??? and again no it hasn't not here maybe in Texas but not here. Neither has Aqualock, or Fresh Start, or 99 percent of the other primers i mentioned. Nor has the oil primers like cover stain. But what do i know. That's what i was told last year at the Benjamin Moore plant on the last time our business group visited. Third time i've gone its a great tour if ya get the chance. Get to ask questions at the end of tour see how the paints are made etc. Zinsser reps were also on hand.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure sure Ive read on here numerous times that 123 has been reformulated for low voc, and also to make cheaper versions to sell at box stores, and that it does not perform as good as it did 20 years ago. Maybe Pacman can chime in, cuz Im pretty sure he knows. I had it fail on some cabinetry I did a couple years back. Well, I wouldnt say fail, but I could scrape it off with a fingernail, and the client told me he has done a couple touch up spots. I offered to do a touch up for free, and he said not to worry about it. Of course, they were some kind of laminate plastic, but it was in a very high end skyscraper where I couldnt use any solvent base. Looking back, I probably should have used stix, but I thought 123 would be sufficient. I dont think I knew about stix at the time though.


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## mDUB562 (Jul 31, 2012)

The Sherwin Williams Paint called Harmony has 0 VOC and it has formaldehyde reducing technology. It is pretty amazing. We do demos with a Harmony paint chip in one jar and a normal paint chip in the other. We add vinegar and put the caps on. Within minutes the Harmony actually removes a great deal of the odor.

For blocking reasons this isn't an ideal coating for cabinets but it's better than having to deal with bleed through. Possibly focus your customer on this great coating and use your typical system underneath. 

From my experience in Southern California only Shellac products can truly block stains.


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## PaPainter724 (Apr 22, 2016)

mDUB562 said:


> The Sherwin Williams Paint called Harmony has 0 VOC and it has formaldehyde reducing technology. It is pretty amazing. We do demos with a Harmony paint chip in one jar and a normal paint chip in the other. We add vinegar and put the caps on. Within minutes the Harmony actually removes a great deal of the odor.
> 
> For blocking reasons this isn't an ideal coating for cabinets but it's better than having to deal with bleed through. Possibly focus your customer on this great coating and use your typical system underneath.
> 
> From my experience in Southern California only Shellac products can truly block stains.


Harmony might be the worst paint on the planet. It starts separating 5 minutes after it's shaken, it doesn't get even color and it's a drag to paint with. We get stuck using it a lot for hospitals because of it's VOC rating and odor stuff. It still makes my eyes water when I use it and when we spray it kills my eyes.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

As it happens, I'm doing a cupboard paint this week. 30 years in use and solidly adhering thin grime layer. I did strip all the doors and am using a BIN shellac based primer. I did the stripping off site with toluene and I find the primer gasses off quickly with minimal smell. (That or I'm nose dead!) HO's not complaining and to my way of thinking it is best practice for jobs like this. Old grease IS the enemy and toluene certainly washes that off.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

Tprice2193 said:


> @*Woodco* - Exactly! about the time you get your process down either primer or topcoat will change. Then your guarantee of longevity and durability of a cabinet finish is pretty much theoretical. I expect a minimum of 5 years longevity. I have gotten much more but would not guarantee it. BIN is BIN not likely to see significant reformulation. SW topcoats....you will find out when you open the can and notice something different. You have prepped ready to spray and now due to an unannounced reformulation you have a "new" product you are testing....Client has given you $4,000 for a first class job so you roll the dice. Just curious what type of longevity would you expect out of a cabinet refinish? Would you put that in writing?


I visited a cupboard repaint that I had done 25 years ago. To my amazement, it has held up well! If I am not mistaken, the color may have faded slightly but there were no chips or peelings. I would never have put 25 years in writing! I can not even remember the products used but am sure it had a shellac primer. My present favorite is Ultra Hybrid Semi-Gloss by Para. I'd be willing to put 10 years in writing on the jobs I've done with this. (Clean-up is a pain, though. Tough paint, Tough clean-up)


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