# Surfactant Leaching



## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

I finished working a nightmare job this week and noticed that it is leaching BAD. I am using Duration flat, tan in color. I have never had this problem before but this customer wont except "it will go away." My questions is....Will it go away? How long does it usally take, and why do I buy 35 degree paint if I cant use it in late fall?


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Benson Painting said:


> why do I buy 35 degree paint if I cant use it in late fall?


Hi Benson, welcome to PaintTalk.

Temperature and moisture are two completely different issues.

It's appreciated but not mandatory here to give a short introduction about yourself and a little about your painting background in the introduction section.

There are lots of friendly knowledgeable people on these forums who enjoy exchanging ideas and dialogues with fellow professional painters.


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## BMDealer (Jun 2, 2008)

This time of year moisture plays the role in leaching issues. Condensation tends to form on the paint prior to it drying. The time spent on exterior paint jobs should be reduced where the end of the day should be no later then 2:00PM, at least in the northeast. 

Now the question is will it go away.......maybe, surfactant leaching can be washed off but it may come back depending on how bad it is. It will not disappear on its own it will need to be clean off.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

When latex paints were originally created they needed to mineral spirits 'vehicle' in order to get them to dissolve. The discovery of the properties of certain surfactants, one end being 'afraid' of water and the other end being 'afraid' of the latex binder - allowed an encapsulation of the binder and subsequently allowed it to be dissolved into water and not paint spirits. Thus from this point on - latex paints and surfactants have been married together. Now once the latex paint polymerises on the substrate, over time you will have a leeching of the surfactants - there is nothing that can be done with this. It is what it is. When they can figure out a paint chemistry that doesn't need a surfactant to dissolve into water you will always run into this. And moisture is the culprit of leeching it out most of the time.


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## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks everyone. Looks like this time of year I have about 3 hours to paint out side in MN.


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## johnpaint (Sep 20, 2008)

I have never had this problem at all. I have seen it on some buildings, and there are alot of homes and building painted in the middle of winter, and why this doesn't happen more is a wonder.


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## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

Leaching has not been a problem in the past but its been really cold and damp this fall. The wall in question was on the garage side of the home farthest from the heat of the home, I belive this may have played a roll.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

I have had this happen to my own place. I called my paint rep. I used Fortis Satin on it. My rep said it is just the paints way of ridding it's self of the surfactant. That usually it will evaporate, but if it is too cold or if there is moisture (dew) that it will come out and that when it rains and more dew comes about that it will go away naturally.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

its a roll of the dice this time of year i told my last ext cust. this yaer i would like to wait until next spring when the wheather is better he agreed its just not worth the chance of things like that happening it can be a real pain in the


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Benson Painting said:


> I finished working a nightmare job this week and noticed that it is leaching BAD. I am using Duration flat, tan in color. I have never had this problem before but this customer wont except "it will go away." My questions is....Will it go away? How long does it usally take, and why do I buy 35 degree paint if I cant use it in late fall?



Hi Benson. Thanks for the introduction. Here are some tips on what I call "surfactant management".

First of all, it's gonna happen, get used to it. The darker the color, the more surfactant issues you will have. Also, flats are worse. I haven't figured out if this is because they have more surfactant, or just show it more because surfactant is shiny, I lean towards the latter.

In my experience surfactant has always been a MOISTURE related issue. 35 degree paint is just what it says it is. They don't refer to it as "100% humidity resting on surface while paint is curing" paint.

Temperature is an issue only in the sense that temperature differentials on surfaces cause dew and moisture to accumulate. The moisture is the real culprit.

Now more importantly: *How to deal with it.*

First of all be aware of what time moisture sets in, it can change from day to day, if it's really foggy etc, you have less time. This aspect that I am referring to is only to avoid the worse possible scenario which is surfactant leaching to such a degree that the film strength fails, the paint components separate, and the paint literally RUNS off of the surface, usually onto something expensive and time consuming to fix like a deck, or a BMW.

Being aware of what time the moisture sets in still won't prevent surfactant from ACTUALLY accumulating. It is going to happen.

I know of painters who painted in the middle of august with 2 weeks of clear skies and the first time it rained they got surfactant.

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Surfactant can be managed. 

First of all, it can be gently wiped off. It can be gently washed off.

I try to get there early in the morning after the first coat goes on. The dew and condensation from the previous evening has brought out the surfactant into shiny pools, but the pools have not dried into a film yet. This is a fantastic time to gently wipe/gently wash off the surfactant. Have lots of clean rags ready.

If you are washing it off make sure you have plenty of dry time ahead so that any moisture you add to the equation will be gone in a few hours.

Warm (not boiling) water will evaporate more quickly.

Just gently wipe/wash off the shiny spots, wait for the surface to dry, then second coat it.

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*EDIT: VERY IMPORTANT!!* Keep folding your rag in such a way that you are wiping only once, or maybe twice with the same portion of the rag. Use a CLEAN portion of the rag for each pass. If you are methodical, you can use up the entire rag so no surface goes to waste.

DO NOT JUST KEEP WIPING WILLY-NILLY WITHOUT PAYING ATTENTION. If you do not make CLEAN passes with CLEAN portions of the rag while wiping each new surfactant spot, surfactant will buildup on the rag, and you will deposit shiny spots *all over the siding* in a pattern that DEFINITELY looks like YOU (the painter) caused it. 

This is definitely worse than just LEAVING the surfactant in it's natural accumulation pattern. At least then you can just hand the Home Owner a pamphlet on surfactant and say "It's not my fault"

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Of course backbrushing helps eliminate any problems with moisture on the surface prior to painting because it mixes it in with the paint. Just one more reason to do it "right."

Do NOT trap shiny dried surfactant film BETWEEN the 1st and 2nd coat. It will flash underneath the second coat and I am not sure if it ever washes out at that point.

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After the second coat goes on, do the same procedure. Wash Gently, or wipe and wash VERY GENTLY and uniformly across the surface so that you don't mar the paint.

Make sure there is moisture on the surface when you wipe, do not wipe a dry rag, across dry paint film, this will scuff the paint. *Let the moisture do the work of loosening the surfactant film* NOT pressure from pushing on the surface.

If you use low quality paint, I can not guarantee that the surface can be wiped at all without seeing marks where you wiped.

TRY THIS ON A SMALL AREA FIRST AND ALLOW TO DRY. Look at it from different angles to make sure you aren't marring the second coat.

I have never had a problem wiping surfactant off and marring the second coat, but I could imagine that people who are not paying attention could do this. 

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Another way to deal with surfactant is to simply try to rinse it off LIGHTLY with a garden sprayer, or very weak homeowner type pressure-washer.

You may need to do this when you are done any way to remove bits of rag that are left on the surface.

Just make sure you have several hours of good weather ahead so that any moisture you put on the surface will dry before evening.

Most of the surfactant will be gone after the first and second coats.

Some more may leach out over the next several days if there is still moisture accumulating on the surface, but not much.

I usually wipe the shiny surfacant off after the first coat, and very gently wipe or just wash the surfactant off after the second coat.

Then at the very end of the job after the two coats have had lots of time to start curing, if some more surfactant has leached out, I may gently 
wash the surface one more time without rubbing on it.

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If you are working on large houses where it would be time consuming to wipe every board, than wiping may be out.

Gently using a pressure washer to mist water on to the surfactant film and allowing to loosen, then washing off *before it dries* may work in larger situations.

In either situation it may be a good idea to allow a day or two dry time in between washings, so the paint can really get a good start on curing before you are flooding the surface with water.

I have never had a problem, but I think I would follow my instincts and *not *wash, or wipe the paint, if for any reason/combination of circumstances, it did not seem like the paint film is strong enough at that moment to endure wiping or washing without permanent harm. Best in that situation to let the paint film set and and cure, then wash the surfactant off at a later time.

Good Luck.


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## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for the Info. You never stop learning in this trade.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Benson Painting said:


> Thanks for the Info. You never stop learning in this trade.


Especially when we have guys like LC (and others) that share like that!:thumbsup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Nice post LC.


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## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

My customer called today and said that although they can see the leaching they will pay me in full and trust me to fix the problem next spring. Wow did not expect that. O ya and i tried washing the wall but.... they went out of town and turned off the water. Thanks everyone im already passing on the knowlege.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Benson Painting said:


> My customer called today and said that although they can see the leaching they will pay me in full and trust me to fix the problem next spring. Wow did not expect that. O ya and i tried washing the wall but.... they went out of town and turned off the water. Thanks everyone im already passing on the knowlege.


That's good news!


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Benson Painting said:


> My customer called today and said that although they can see the leaching they will pay me in full and trust me to fix the problem next spring. .


That is a really good gesture on their part. Why not take a pressure washer over there right now and spend a couple hours and see if you can get most of it off?

Incidentally, I should have stressed trying to just wash it off after the second coat rather than rubbing with a rag. If Surfactant washes off, there is no reason to add rags/wiping to the equation.

Also, I forgot to mention that wiping obviously will not work on rough surfaces.

If it's been a week or two I would try gently washing it off with a very weak pressure washer setting now rather than waiting until spring, Surfactant does dry into a sticky film which probably gets more tenacious over several months. Unless of course it is being rained on a lot directly, but not all portions of a wall get rained on very often. 

Also i have meant to try and find a very very SOFT brush of some kind to help gently loosen up sticky surfactant. By soft I mean like you run it across your hand and it feels like velvet.

Any normal cleaning brush would be way to abrasive to run across finished paint. 

I suppose a paintbrush might work, but I would prefer to use a flat type of brush with short very SOFT bristles that you could put flat on a board, and it would span the entire width of the board.

I would just wet the surface and gently run the brush on the whole board so that the entire surface is being treated uniformly, then rinse it off while it is still wet. Once you loosen up the surfactant, 

With a brush (as opposed to a clean portion of the rag with each pass) it would be especially important *not* to rub the brush across dry paint because you could deposit surfactant onto areas that don't have any surfactant.

Again, try and see if just gently washing it works first before you do any wiping/rubbing.

Good luck.


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## Benson Painting (Oct 9, 2009)

When I spoke with my customer I did tell them I would try to wash it off yet this fall. However did not want to over promise until I had better weather that it would be 100% I then gave them the option to hold some money from the total until the problem was fixed. Thats when they decided to pay me in full based on my word. When I go back I will try to get some good pictures of whats going on and post them. More than anything I just want to tackel this problem correctly so that I know how to prevent/correct it right away next time. Thanks again, hopfully I will update everyone on my success.


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## FL.BM.DEALER (Apr 2, 2009)

Everyone's comments here are correct but there is a bit more to surfactant leaching.

_*Main Cause:* Surfactant Leaching is the main result in a coating, interior or exterior forming a top bearing film prior to the coating fully curing. Many factors play a role in this age old problem, temperature, moisture, wind & sunlight exposure. Most coatings can bear an application environment from 40 degress up to 90 degrees without any issue, however, if wind, sunlight and temperature cause a coating to " film dry" faster than designed, the coating is still un-cure behind the film causing the inert material to leach though the pores of the "film" causing a shinny like substance "leaching" to the surface._

_*Solution: *Most situations with surfactant leaching issues is not anything to be concered with. In most situations a simple down pour or shower can disolve these surfactants off of the coating's surface leaving behind a "soapy" - like foam on the ground. More stubborn situations may require the use of a commercial pressure washer to remove surfactants that may have sat on the surface for an extended amount of time due to shading or lack there of exposure to the elements. Interior surfaces, simply wipe the walls down with a damp rag, changing rags about every half wall._


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