# Do you use illegal help?



## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Yes, I'm curious if you use or for that matter have used illegal help (knowingly) in the past.

Illegal help as in illegal aliens.

Curious as to the answers on this one, lol...


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I have not but looking around at all the guys I see in my area it looks pretty common.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

No
please let this thread stay on track!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

And by illegal, I am assuming you mean not a legal citizen, as opposed to paying someone on a 1099 when it should be a W2, not paying taxes, not paying Workers Compensation or Unemployment Insurance?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

yeah, some companies are getting the crackdown for 1099ing instead of w2ing.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

RCP said:


> And by illegal, I am assuming you mean not a legal citizen, as opposed to paying someone on a 1099 when it should be a W2, not paying taxes, not paying Workers Compensation or Unemployment Insurance?


This is my question as well. I am assuming you mean illegal immigrants when you say "illegal help".

I'd be more interested in who's not paying thier comp, which seems to be more common in my area than hiring illegals. I've been in situations where subs promise they have comp and in the end you get stuck paying for it when you find out they don't have it.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

wje said:


> Not only do we use illegal help, but to keep it off the radar, we use illegal tools and materials just to be safe.




We get hopped up on illegal drugs, and use illegal firearms, to steal illegal paint, then we pick up truckloads of illegals from Home Depot, to remove lead paint illegally,

We illegally speed all the way to the jobsite, none of the migrants are wearing seatbelts so that's illegal, in the back of the house we run an illegal dogfight to bring in extra cash,

We illegally don't wear harnesses or safety gear when working with planks, and it's illegal not to wear respirators so we don't do that either, we illegally steal everything in the house, and sell loot to finance subversive illegal political organizations, 

And just for good measure, we sprint around the jobsite all day, running with scissors. Then at the end of the day we illegally spike the illegal workers water with Rufinol, then dump them off back at Home Depot so we can illegally deprive them of their pay. 

And of course we have lawyers on retainer to illegally bribe judges, to defend us against prosecution for our illegal deeds.

How is that for honesty?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> Uh, Harry? Can you describe what an illegal alien looks like so we can have a better idea of what you're asking?:whistling2:


How bout i just give a Wikipedia description?

"An alien who is present in a country (which is foreign to him/her) unlawfully or without the country's authorization is known as an *illegal alien* of that country"


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Harry said:


> Yes, I'm curious if you use or for that matter have used illegal help (knowingly) in the past.
> 
> Illegal help as in illegal aliens.
> 
> Curious as to the answers on this one, lol...


I'm sure a lot of people will deny using them as employees, but how many use them for personal projects like landscaping, concrete work, or house cleaning?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

In answer to your question Harry: NO. And I will not refer anyone that I know hires them. Coming from a guy who became a naturalized citizen at age 13.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I'm sure a lot of people will deny using them as employees, but how many use them for personal projects like landscaping, concrete work, or house cleaning?


As an _employer, _its our job to make sure of the legal status of our employees.

As a _consumer, _it gets a little tougher. Do we check the status of the kitchen staff when we go to a resturant? How would you go about that?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> As an _employer, _its our job to make sure of the legal status of our employees.


How do you check?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

The ? Is to anyone that can answer. How do you check if some one is a legal citizen?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Also what forms do you have new hires fill out?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> As an _employer, _its our job to make sure of the legal status of our employees.
> 
> As a _consumer, _it gets a little tougher. Do we check the status of the kitchen staff when we go to a resturant? How would you go about that?


Ask the employer maybe? I don't really know.

Personally, if I don't have the money to pay the costs of legitimate services, I will either not do the project, or do the work myself.

At least I make an effort to not exploit illegal aliens.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> How do you check?


Fill out an I-9 at the US Dept of Homeland Security


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Anyone else got any answers. I wanna know. How do you check the status of citizenship, and what forms do new hires fill out?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Ask the employer maybe? I don't really know.
> 
> Personally, if I don't have the money to pay the costs of legitimate services, I will either not do the project, or do the work myself.
> 
> At least I make an effort to not exploit illegal aliens.


I agree. As a consumer, if I suspect they are using illegal aliens as labor, I go elsewhere. But how do you _know? _

I'm told here in Chicago that kitchen staff at resturants is rampant with illegals. What do you do if you want to eat out? I'm just trying to look at the issue as a consumer here......


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

If you don't even know how to check as a employer how would you know how to check as a consumer?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> If you don't even know how to check as a employer how would you know how to check as a consumer?


Lets see if I know how to post a link.....http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf

Wing, as a _consumer, _how do *you *check?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

For all you know your employees might be illegal citizens if alls you got is a w2. :yes:


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Harry said:


> Yes, I'm curious if you use or for that matter have used illegal help (knowingly) in the past.
> 
> Illegal help as in illegal aliens.
> 
> Curious as to the answers on this one, lol...


In the past, illegals were able fake documents easier. They would use other peoples numbers ids etc. The employer would send it in and if the numbers werent rejected they were good to go. Its a different story now. We e verify everyone. You basically type in their info on a govt database, and within a minute you know if they are legal or illegal. It is very hard for illegals to cheat the system this way. If it comes back they are illegal, they have the right to work a week and appeal the rejection. However if they repeal and lose, they are suppose to be deported. Basically if they are rejected, they leave pretty quick.

We have actually had people drive hundreds of miles looking for work just to be rejected. We are upfront and tell them they are going to be e verified, but they still try even if they are illegal. The crazy thing too is we have had people pass that cant speak one word of English and others fail who spoke perfect english.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

The best you can do is ask for documentation at the time of the hire, and submit the info. Legally, as of now, that's all you're required to do. Where it get's sticky for some employers is that although they have them fill out the forms and photocopy the ID, they "knowingly" hire them knowing they're illegal. (Think, I almost confused myself.....) Last year a local drywaller and paint outfit was shut down, fined, and the owners on their way to a vacation at the local federal health club. It was their 2nd major offense.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> Fill out an I-9 at the US Dept of Homeland Security


Is that the same as E-Verify ?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

How is it the same?


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

ewingpainting.net said:


> How is it the same?


Both require you to fill out an I-9. E verify is just the on-line form....


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

As employers, we are _required_ to fill one out for each new hire.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I've never hired an illegal alien, but I have paid people under the table. My brother, however, was an illegal worker when he was in Denmark. He painted a ladies windows for some euros. 

I must say, a tremendous shadow has been with my family ever since, darkened by shame. Please turn me into the feds pronto. The guilt is too much to bare. Thanks.


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## BC_Painter (Feb 14, 2010)

Never have, never will.

Liability is WAY too high, plus up in Canada we have way less of these looking for work.


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## In Demand (Mar 24, 2008)

What do you mean illegal ?
They are undocumented workers, they are not allowed to be removed from the country or be made to feel descriminated against. Just poor people trying to feed their families.
You rich white devils need to be a little more sympathetic and let them have your work, I mean you have so much and they have so little.










I hate illegals
I wish the people who hired them got testicular cancer


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

ModernStyle said:


> I hate illegals
> I wish the people who hired them got testicular cancer


Actually it would have been very easy to stop illegals from entering the country.

THey could have just been going around to employers and giving them a $10,000 for each illegal they found.

They could have been doing that for the last 30 years if they didn't want illegals here.

That's IF.

People in high places WANT the illegals to flood the country. It helps them destabilize the economy and the population to further their aims.

Don't hate the illegals who simply are trying to not starve to death.

Hate the people you and I voted for who secretly got paid along to further agendas they didn't tell us about.

If people want to fix this problem, they need to understand the source of the problem, and the motivation behind it.

The guy sneaking across the border to work for $5 an hour is not the source of the problem, he is the result of the problem.

The source is the powers that be that want to turn you into a $5 an hour slave too.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I can't believe how easy it seems for foreigners to live and work here without citizenship, and to evidently receive citizenship. Go to any major city, and you can find many different groups of people who cant speak any english. I'm not saying I think everyone here needs to speak perfect english or anything. And I don't have anything against people from other countries or immigrants.

I just know other countries have much stricter policies allowing people into and working within their boundaries. My brother lived in Denmark while his wife was going to school there. They don't let any immigrant/foreigners have a job there unless absolutely nobody wants it, and that about zero. Its very difficult to get a work visa there. Many countries just aren't as careless about immigration as ours. One would think, as LC suggests, that if our govt wanted to, we could be more proactive.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

I dont know Harry. First you ask the question - Post #1. Then you admit it's for the hell of it based on curiosity. - Post #70. What more is there to say to stay on topic? Now if there is some specific reason other than those listed, or you have some commentary on those who do, where do you expect the thread to go?


I'm just asking for the hell of it, based out of curiosity....


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## alan (Feb 17, 2010)

Last Craftsman said:


> We get hopped up on illegal drugs, and use illegal firearms, to steal illegal paint, then we pick up truckloads of illegals from Home Depot, to remove lead paint illegally,
> 
> We illegally speed all the way to the jobsite, none of the migrants are wearing seatbelts so that's illegal, in the back of the house we run an illegal dogfight to bring in extra cash,
> 
> ...


 I just spit my taco out! way to funny :thumbup:


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

What the ressurection?!?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> What the ressurection?!?


Shhh! I am trying to prove to Harry that we can carry on a civil conversation!


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

RCP said:


> Shhh! I am trying to prove to Harry that we can carry on a civil conversation!


Yeah, besides, new readers are still enjoying my post about hiring illegals and sprinting around the jobsite with scissors.

I feel it would be an injustice to the people to deprive them of my comedic wizardry! Power to the people.

VIVA LA PROLETARIAT!

:whistling2:


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

LOL, that's why I left it!:thumbsup:


Now SOT!


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Wtf ???


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

boring


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I bring my 1yr old to the shop sometimes. I give him a swifer, and he runs around wiping the floors down. I don't pay him for it, but he doesn't seem to mind, or at least he hasn't said anything about it. I wonder if I can 1099 him at the end of the year for food and travel expenses that he got.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> I bring my 1yr old to the shop sometimes. I give him a swifer, and he runs around wiping the floors down. I don't pay him for it, but he doesn't seem to mind, or at least he hasn't said anything about it. I wonder if I can 1099 him at the end of the year for food and travel expenses that he got.


lol wishful thinking, there may be a loophole there if you didn't claim him as a dependent on your return.:thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

This is like placing someone's severed head on a table, along with a couple of detached limbs, and expect to get a meaningful conversation out of them. Especially since the heart and soul have been gutted, and discarded. Fail


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I always use illegal help. It's the only way to compete with the illegals!!!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

CApainter said:


> This is like placing someone's severed head on a table, along with a couple of detached limbs, and expect to get a meaningful conversation out of them. Especially since the heart and soul have been gutted, and discarded. Fail


lol, wow.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

NCPaint1 said:


> I bring my 1yr old to the shop sometimes. I give him a swifer, and he runs around wiping the floors down. I don't pay him for it, but he doesn't seem to mind, or at least he hasn't said anything about it. I wonder if I can 1099 him at the end of the year for food and travel expenses that he got.


Hmmm, let me know how you can work the angles on this one. 

My 4 year old was with me the other day. He insisted he carry out a gallon of paint. He didn't make it to the back door before he gave up and grabbed some Hot Wheels instead. When in the truck he asked for his milk and cookies and I'm thinking to myself, this boy might be over paid as I was equating 7 1/2 feet of carry for a can of paint for 2 cookies and 400ml of milk. 

Any suggestions on how I can maximize this labour while cutting costs on milk and cookies?

This is what this thread is about right?


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

^^^^Hilarious!!!!! Best thing I've read in a few days.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Paint and Hammer said:


> Hmmm, let me know how you can work the angles on this one.
> 
> My 4 year old was with me the other day. He insisted he carry out a gallon of paint. He didn't make it to the back door before he gave up and grabbed some Hot Wheels instead. When in the truck he asked for his milk and cookies and I'm thinking to myself, this boy might be over paid as I was equating 7 1/2 feet of carry for a can of paint for 2 cookies and 400ml of milk.
> 
> ...


You place the said cookie and milk where you want your gallon to end up. You place them high enough so that the worker has to use the said can as a step to reach the reward. This will ensure a prompt delivery of the gallon from point of origin to point of cookie.

* Please be advised that "Yaros Contractor Painting Systems" does not guarantee safe delivery of paint using the above system. Results may vary.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Cookies? You are definitely overpaying my friend. Cheerios are the standard wage, everyone knows this.


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## GTC1187 (Apr 23, 2009)

No Illegals!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Can the American workers match the production rates of the alleged illegal alien. Particularly the Hispanics? I don't think so, and here in lies the problem for American workers.

Most of the trades, particularly the painting trade, do not have a very large learning curve. Therefore, it doesn't take much time to learn the craft, and train before your off and running. Providing a service for the multitude of customers who want the "best deal". 

When it isn't the best deal, these guys still perform the work with vigor, expediency, and the commitment to complete the project as conscientiously as possible, even if it means working thirteen hours a day. 

The illegal workers are going to be here forever. We need to figure out how we can work with them, and how we can help them assimilate into the American worker's culture.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Can the American workers match the production rates of the alleged illegal alien. Particularly the Hispanics? I don't think so, and here in lies the problem for American workers.
> 
> Most of the trades, particularly the painting trade, does not have a very large learning curve. Therefore, it doesn't take much time to learn the craft, and train before your off and running. Providing a service for the multitude of customers who want the "best deal".
> 
> ...


CA, I like your post. I believe you're right in more ways than one.
First off, I do believe (know) that the Hispanics here in NH have come so far as far as quality and production. It was just a matter of time before they assimilated...much the same as any nationality that exists in America today.

I see firsthand that the Hispanics are outperforming the Canadian drywaller and tapers and they are not complaining either.

If you ever want to read some good stuff, look up Malden Mills in Lawrence, MA and check out Mr. Aaron Feuerstein and how his faith in his Hispanic workers brought him out of the ashes.

Years ago, I had many Hispanics working for me. I was in my 20's and I couldn't tell you if they were illegal or not. it wasn't an issue back then for me really.

I do agree that we need to figure out how we are going to get through this because as you said...they aren't going anywhere. The sooner we can get them up to par legally, the sooner we can have a larger workforce that will actually work for their money...


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Can the American workers match the production rates of the alleged illegal alien. Particularly the Hispanics? I don't think so, and here in lies the problem for American workers.
> 
> Most of the trades, particularly the painting trade, does not have a very large learning curve. Therefore, it doesn't take much time to learn the craft, and train before your off and running. Providing a service for the multitude of customers who want the "best deal".
> 
> ...


I'm totally with you in this one buddy. Once, 8 years ago, I came to this country to go to University, I was short on cash and I didn't want to ask my parents in Mexico to send me more $ cause they were already spending a fortune on my education out of my own country so I decided to help my parents with getting myself a job, of course I only had a student visa, no work visa, there was a nice white guy that had a painting company and gave me a chance by hiring me, I never took anything for granted, I learnt every single detail of this trade that was required, my boss was impressed of how fast I learn stuff. 
I graduate and it was time for me to do something better. No, I decided to stick with painting. Just because, yes I love my job. 
Ever since then I always remember how "Once a North American Good hearted man gave me a chance"

The rest it was only me. Never give up!

Now I'm married to a canadian girl, I've been lucky becoming canadian but I still remember what I've been thru. Not Easy, but worth it!

Cheers to the best of what the illegals can offer to you....


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## Retired (Jul 27, 2010)

IMO what we could do too is lull them into submission with Honey-Nut Cheerios, Oreos and milk then sever thier heads.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I actually think this baby has a pulse!


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

I think it really just comes down to opportunity. If you don't have much then you really appreciate what you have, thus work harder not to loose it. I think that is a good part on the theory that illegals do the work that no Americans want to do and why they out perform the legal citizens in allot of these trades. Its all based on freakin fear. It's sad and many people do not want this to go away due to greed

Pat


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Workers rights have askewed the ultimate goal of the American worker. 

Entitlements, litigious protections, and numerous labor policies have attempted to make everything equal amongst all workers. For example, janitors in some cities boast larger incomes then those of school teachers. All in an attempt to make everything equal.

Face it, some trades don't pay what others do. If you don't like it, train and educate yourself to do something else that will increase your income.

Meanwhile, foreign workers are devouring us in terms our work ethics. And it's beginning to show.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

First off, its sad that many believe that "Americans won't work" or "Don't work as hard". 

Second there are few jobs "Americans won't do" its more like "Jobs Americans won't do for wages some want to pay."

And to put to put a point on it. Last month, we were painting a house. They were having a kitchen done at the same time, so there was a GC there. (Homeowner hired us to do other rooms) Within 15 minutes after the boss leaves, his hard working Hispanic laid right on a sofa (covered with my drops) and went to sleep.

Does that mean all Hispanics are going to take a nap? No, it just shows that they are like all other people. Some are good, some are bad.

Do you really believe all Americans are lazy? Or are you using the bad behavior of a few to justify bad behavior of your own?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> First off, its sad that many believe that "Americans won't work" or "Don't work as hard".
> 
> Second there are few jobs "Americans won't do" its more like "Jobs Americans won't do for wages some want to pay."
> 
> ...


Good point BB.

However, what your talking about may be the type of workers that an unscrupulous American contractor picked up at Home Depot for a very low wage.

I'm talking about the alleged illegals who may be receiving a very good wage, albeit under the table.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

bikerboy said:


> First off, its sad that many believe that "Americans won't work" or "Don't work as hard".
> 
> Do you really believe all Americans are lazy? Or are you using the bad behavior of a few to justify bad behavior of your own?


Personally, I work as hard as an illegal alien, but I am very familiar with the American worker who "feels" he's entitled to special treatment.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Good point BB.
> 
> However, what your talking about may be the type of workers that an unscrupulous American contractor picked up at Home Depot for a very low wage.
> 
> I'm talking about the alleged illegals who may be receiving a very good wage, albeit under the table.


 
Gotta admit, I've seen both from both groups. Hard working and lazy. Do think that the present day "go to college or you won't amount to anything" that todays kids here sets a bad precedent and minimizes the possibility of making a good living in the trades.

Read a recent article in The Wall Street Journal (I think) that made the argument that the trades are becoming a great option for todays youth. They mentioned plumbers and electricians. The old guys are getting out, and not enough young guys are getting in. The average plumber is making $75,000 per year. Most college grads aren't making that, plus they have a load of debt.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Here's a good read, IMO.
http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_strength_diversity/

BTW, I feel that most Americans who have hired these Hispanics in the past are as responsible for what's going on as they are because we hired them and were looking at the bottom line for ourselves.

Some of you guys who are bitchin' about the low labor have perhaps personally driven down the rate yourselves.

I started this post because I simply wanted to know what the answer would be. I wasn't trying to "catch" anyone.

But my opinion is that more of us have hired illegals than we care to shake a stick at and well, that's pretty much the norm as far as I can see.

I don't know what the ratio of BS to truth is when answering the question that I proposed...and it really doesn't matter I guess...but I will say that me thinks that some answers may be full of caca...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

BB,

I agree. Too many young adults are being persuaded to pursue fields that don't involve manual labor. it seems that if they have an interest in construction, they're directed towards engineering degrees. This will ultimately leave a void that can only be filled by foreign born workers.

The American philosophy of you can do , and be whatever you want, has, IMO, contributed to a lot of the disillusionment amongst our younger generation.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

I totally agree with you Harry. People Bitch and then you get posts like the one that said, Americans are lazy and expect too much, so in order to compete, he has to hire illegals.
Thank you for driving the market in to the ground A$$%*!!- get off the island!


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

You guys whine too much! You should be feeling grateful with life that brought you all of you to a great country where there is a million of opportunities and the sky is the limit for the ones that take it, you should be feeling grateful you aren't the ones jumping into somebody elses country and take whatever work you can get. No matter which colour or race, the opportunities are there for everyone, lazy or not, it is everyones choice.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

AztecPainting said:


> You guys whine too much! You should be feeling grateful with life that brought you all of you to a great country where there is a million of opportunities and the sky is the limit for the ones that take it, you should be feeling grateful you aren't the ones jumping into somebody elses country and take whatever work you can get. No matter which colour or race, the opportunities are there for everyone, lazy or not, it is everyones choice.


... say's the man from Canada.
I don't think you understand the economics of it. For instance, if it get's too bad here, there could be a surge of people up to Canada... would you feel the same then? If your production rates were slashed? 
What we need to understand is that is IS a part of a larger plan to have a labor class always on the edge of poverty and grow the gap between the "upper middle" and lower class until there is no middle class. 
We had it coming though for exploiting Mexico's class system in the 70's... it is a chickens come home to roost type thing.

We are in economic theory battle here in the US. Neither plan is individualist as you, Aztec, have cited by saying, "the sky is the limit," a reference to free enterprize system. We're not winning that battle for economic individualism- It's either Neoliberal economics which favors privatization of the econmomy but with a bad deal of the cards to small business and individuals. They win two ways- they get to import labor and outsource jobs.. (think Carly Fiorina) while criminalizing and marginalizing the current middle class.
The other plan is a "Progressive Economy" with large scale unionization needed and bureaucratic control over resources. Europe is the model. I don't want to live in European Olagarky! No free enterprize... Join a union and be clone!
What the current immigration problem is doing is making it possible to shrink the middle class and to the victor go the spoils. Either way it goes... we lose, and the immigrants that came here instead of making Mexico better... will lose as well.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

Canada????? Sure


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## neatness counts (Sep 11, 2010)

No,but almost every local paint contractor I know does. It hurts pricing because they have lower overhead and can under bid.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

AztecPainting said:


> Canada????? Sure



Your profile suggests that you are Canadian. If that is true, I'll tell you this much. During the build-up to the Olympics, I couldn't get a work visa to go Hang Wallcovering in your country, but my country will let you come here, as well, your country will let S. And Central Americans work in your country but not U.S. citizens. Is that fair? Another thing... Nafta! Great for your country... sucks for us!


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

..........


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

............


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I think we need to separate (and reduce) the sterotyping of the immigrants.




CApainter said:


> The illegal workers are going to be here forever. We need to figure out how we can work with them, and how we can help them assimilate into the American worker's culture.


I agree with this, I was reading an old copy of Forbes while I was getting my car worked on this morning. I tried to find it online and can't. It was pretty interesting.

It had a graph of how long it took immigrants to get visas, Mexico was 131 years and other countries were much lower. 

It also talked about the important things immigrants have contributed to our country, the guy who created Google was an immigrant!

Many immigrants work for cash (for less) because they are afraid to get caught, they don't put their money in the banks, they live "under the table".

I live in a rural farm area that once depended on on traveling immigrants to harvest the fields, co op housing was built for the seasonal laborers. That housing is now full of legal and illegal residents with American born children who live there at govt subsidized rates. 

For the most part, they are hard working, but most hold "legal" jobs in service industries using stolen or forged Social Security cards. They have taxes taken from their check that they are unable to "claim" and the gov't keeps. 

My school spends a large amount of money and resources to teach the kids, and are held accountable if they fail.

This is what needs to change!


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Quoting is messed up...hmmm

http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/groun...gth_diversity/


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## Joepro0000 (Jul 27, 2009)

First I want to say I am a drywall contractor, and do alot of painting too. I hire and give work to all types of races, Americans, Hispanics, Jamaicians, Bahamains, etc who ever can go to a job and get the job done with-out having to baby-sit anyone, or hearing complains from the Supers. The most consistent of hiring I have to do is for drywall finishing, and every American (white guy) I hired never work out. I hired this guy who told me he was a finisher, and couldn't fill out a corner-bead. I sent him to a job and told him it was just some touch-ups to do, and when he got there, there was a busted corner-bead. He refused to fix it because he didn't know how. So basically he lied to me and wasted my time because we wasn't a finisher. So he got up-set, walk off the job, and quit on the first day. Told me to go find a mexican to do the job. I'm like WTF, I was paying him flat out $150 for 2-4 hours of work. Didn't care if he could get it done in 1 hr. Do the math and tell me I was paying him good, and there should of been no excuse. Then his replacement was a hispanic guy who went to do the job, fix the problems professionally, left and no more call backs. Had the same problem when I hired 2 different finishing crews for 2 projects next to each out. One American finishing crew who said they were union workers from Chicago who been doing finishing for 30 years. I first gave him both jobs, but he decieved me, and had to pull him off of one to focus on one job only because the Supers complaining of their production. The hispanic crew came in, did the bigger job, and finished it before them, and more superb. They left the job with 3 coats, sanded and ready for paint. The American crew left it with 2 coats, and alot of areas not sanded. Both worked by production for a very well paid job by the board, and had no excuse. The hispanics would work from 7-5 and the americans from 8:30 - 3:30. I have a business to run and if supers are on my a$s for people working too slow, its going to hurt my relationship with the GC. Jobs have timelines and realistic expectations of finishing them on time.

So my problem is every American finisher I hired seems to be a lazy person or someone who does not know what he is doing and lies to me. These kind of situations gives us Americans a bad name and make us look the other way when looking for workers.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Joepro0000 said:


> First I want to say I am a drywall contractor, and do alot of painting too. I hire and give work to all types of races, Americans, Hispanics, Jamaicians, Bahamains, etc who ever can go to a job and get the job done with-out having to baby-sit anyone, or hearing complains from the Supers. The most consistent of hiring I have to do is for drywall finishing, and every American (white guy) I hired never work out. I hired this guy who told me he was a finisher, and couldn't fill out a corner-bead. I sent him to a job and told him it was just some touch-ups to do, and when he got there, there was a busted corner-bead. He refused to fix it because he didn't know how. So basically he lied to me and wasted my time because we wasn't a finisher. So he got up-set, walk off the job, and quit on the first day. Told me to go find a mexican to do the job. I'm like WTF, I was paying him flat out $150 for 2-4 hours of work. Didn't care if he could get it done in 1 hr. Do the math and tell me I was paying him good, and there should of been no excuse. Then his replacement was a hispanic guy who went to do the job, fix the problems professionally, left and no more call backs. Had the same problem when I hired 2 different finishing crews for 2 projects next to each out. One American finishing crew who said they were union workers from Chicago who been doing finishing for 30 years. I first gave him both jobs, but he decieved me, and had to pull him off of one to focus on one job only because the Supers complaining of their production. The hispanic crew came in, did the bigger job, and finished it before them, and more superb. They left the job with 3 coats, sanded and ready for paint. The American crew left it with 2 coats, and alot of areas not sanded. Both worked by production for a very well paid job by the board, and had no excuse. The hispanics would work from 7-5 and the americans from 8:30 - 3:30. I have a business to run and if supers are on my a$s for people working too slow, its going to hurt my relationship with the GC. Jobs have timelines and realistic expectations of finishing them on time.
> 
> So my problem is every American finisher I hired seems to be a lazy person or someone who does not know what he is doing and lies to me. These kind of situations gives us Americans a bad name and make us look the other way when looking for workers.


So, in other words, you got lazy. You did not take the time to check them out. Call references, look at prior work or even stick around for a couple of hours to see what kind of work they did.

Not making excuses for them, but you don't get off the hook that easy either.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Joepro0000 said:


> First I want to say I am a drywall contractor, and do alot of painting too. I hire and give work to all types of races, Americans, Hispanics, Jamaicians, Bahamains, etc who ever can go to a job and get the job done with-out having to baby-sit anyone, or hearing complains from the Supers. The most consistent of hiring I have to do is for drywall finishing, and every American (white guy) I hired never work out. I hired this guy who told me he was a finisher, and couldn't fill out a corner-bead. I sent him to a job and told him it was just some touch-ups to do, and when he got there, there was a busted corner-bead. He refused to fix it because he didn't know how. So basically he lied to me and wasted my time because we wasn't a finisher. So he got up-set, walk off the job, and quit on the first day. Told me to go find a mexican to do the job. I'm like WTF, I was paying him flat out $150 for 2-4 hours of work. Didn't care if he could get it done in 1 hr. Do the math and tell me I was paying him good, and there should of been no excuse. Then his replacement was a hispanic guy who went to do the job, fix the problems professionally, left and no more call backs. Had the same problem when I hired 2 different finishing crews for 2 projects next to each out. One American finishing crew who said they were union workers from Chicago who been doing finishing for 30 years. I first gave him both jobs, but he decieved me, and had to pull him off of one to focus on one job only because the Supers complaining of their production. The hispanic crew came in, did the bigger job, and finished it before them, and more superb. They left the job with 3 coats, sanded and ready for paint. The American crew left it with 2 coats, and alot of areas not sanded. Both worked by production for a very well paid job by the board, and had no excuse. The hispanics would work from 7-5 and the americans from 8:30 - 3:30. I have a business to run and if supers are on my a$s for people working too slow, its going to hurt my relationship with the GC. Jobs have timelines and realistic expectations of finishing them on time.
> 
> So my problem is every American finisher I hired seems to be a lazy person or someone who does not know what he is doing and lies to me. These kind of situations gives us Americans a bad name and make us look the other way when looking for workers.


So what your saying is that all Americans (except you) should move out of the country so you and the illegals (the only ones besides you that know how to work) can have at it ????


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## Joepro0000 (Jul 27, 2009)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> So what your saying is that all Americans (except you) should move out of the country so you and the illegals (the only ones besides you that know how to work) can have at it ????


no way am I saying that. What I'm saying is my experience I keep on confronting, thats all. There are alot of Americans (meaning whites) that are putting us out there with bad reputations from their work ethics and that the hispanics are getting better reputations than whites. They are beating us with work ethics, production, responsibility and they will not go away. 

Also when I say hispanics, I do not mean illegals. Get it right, and because by saying that you sound like your getting offended. I'm sure there are plenty of excellent production finishers who are white, but they are a dieing trend. Many of them are either starting their own company up and just hiring people instead of working, or are retired. 

Biker Boy-

I did not get lazy, there are times I have 10-12 jobs going on at the same time, and I am busy working, weather it be framing/drywalling/finishing/painting and don't have the time to go check someone out. If they send me their info, show me they have their own tools, (which they had a bazooka/boxes) then I will give them a shot. 

References don't work. Anyone can put a friends number as a reference or do a former employee laid off or fired a favor to find a new job. How do you know if the references your calling aren't just lieing for them.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Joepro0000 said:


> no way am I saying that. What I'm saying is my experience I keep on confronting, thats all. There are alot of Americans (meaning whites) that are putting us out there with bad reputations from their work ethics and that the hispanics are getting better reputations than whites. They are beating us with work ethics, production, responsibility and they will not go away.
> 
> Also when I say hispanics, I do not mean illegals. Get it right, and because by saying that you sound like your getting offended. I'm sure there are plenty of excellent production finishers who are white, but they are a dieing trend. Many of them are either starting their own company up and just hiring people instead of working, or are retired.
> 
> ...


If you have that much work right now... It IS becuase you are cut throating!


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## Joepro0000 (Jul 27, 2009)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> If you have that much work right now... It IS becuase you are cut throating!


right now I don't have any jobs, and I am considered very expensive. When I had those 10-12 jobs, it was from our good reputation from a repeat GC. But when I follow up on bids, where usually come in 1 or 2 of the most expensive contractors. So cut throating is not possible, I'm only of victim of it from my competitors.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Joepro0000 said:


> right now I don't have any jobs, and I am considered very expensive. When I had those 10-12 jobs, it was from our good reputation from a repeat GC. But when I follow up on bids, where usually come in 1 or 2 of the most expensive contractors. So cut throating is not possible, I'm only of victim of it from my competitors.


Yeah... ok sorry I jumped to conclusions.

Truth is... it's a very difficult situation for everyone right now. When I refer to Mexico. I should make it more clear that I have a problem with Mexican politics- not Mexican people. Except the ones who smuggle drugs or people into this country... or those who support that.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> If you have that much work right now... It IS becuase you are cut throating!


Pretty judgmental comment there Sam. Without knowing the guy you could also say that he has that much work because he runs a nice business model or because he is a hell of a salesman and has good crews running. Which of is true? Maybe none of the above but still there are often other options. Some people like to think the worst and some the best.

Illegals can be a touchy subject for some because many of us have felt the effects and that is not limited to a single race. All you can do is try and do the right thing in your own behaviors by not hiring illegals.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> Pretty judgmental comment there Sam.
> 
> Illegals can be a touchy subject for some because many of us have felt the effects and that is not limited to a single race. All you can do is try and do the right thing in your own behaviors by not hiring illegals.


You're right Sean. I apologize Joepro.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

.....most politics I've seen allowed here in ages.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Your profile suggests that you are Canadian. If that is true, I'll tell you this much. During the build-up to the Olympics, I couldn't get a work visa to go Hang Wallcovering in your country, but my country will let you come here, as well, your country will let S. And Central Americans work in your country but not U.S. citizens. Is that fair? Another thing... Nafta! Great for your country... sucks for us!


Sorry buddy, I am Mexican, born and raised, I just came to Canada 8 years ago for University, yes I did finish University and while I was at University with student visa, I started painting for an almost retired journeyman painter that wanted to give me a chance (under the table, illegal, however you wanna call it) I wanted to give my parents a hand after they where paying $8000 a semester plus my rent and food ($1200 month) How much is that for a Mexican Family? I couldn't get a student loan in Canada because I was a foreign student. So, Awesome Nafta eh? At least not for Mexicans like me that want to go to school. 

Call it however you want, but don't generalize and complain that illegals come to your country and steal jobs out of your people.

Do you know how long it took me to get my residence? 3 year of processing time, yeah it is not easy, it suck to be waiting and spending money on everything immigration request from you, (I am not a criminal, I went to university, so wtf?)... Again, Nafta suck for mexicans only, you know what? Every time I wanted to go to Mexico on winter time to see my family I couldn't fly thru the states to make my trip cheaper ($1300 ticket to fly to mexico just because I didn;t have a special visa to get into your country)... Why???? Again Nafta, it requires me to get a Visa just to fly thru the states, like if I was interested on going there and deal with people like you. 

Don't come and tell me stories about discrimination, racism, illegals and sh.t like that. I've been on that road before and it doesn't feel nice, would you? 

It is not that I agree with hiring illegals, I don't think is right, I think you can get in trouble and I understand, there are good ones that would be worth giving them a hand and they will fell grateful for it and they will respect you forever, but that's it, be fair and treat other people exactly how you want to be treated.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

RCP said:


> I think we need to separate (and reduce) the sterotyping of the immigrants.


Maybe I should have been a little clearer. Let's not turn this into a rant against any nationality or country.



Wolfgang said:


> .....most politics I've seen allowed here in ages.


Ya, and can you see why?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> You're right Sean. I apologize Joepro.


You apologized while I was typing. :thumbup:


Wolfgang said:


> .....most politics I've seen allowed here in ages.


I am a slacker sometimes.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Did anyone else see the Google ad at the top of the page titles something like:

"should U.S. follow Arizona's lead"?

I tried to reload the page several times, but I have not seen it again.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Last Craftsman said:


> Did anyone else see the Google ad at the top of the page titles something like:
> 
> "should U.S. follow Arizona's lead"?
> 
> I tried to reload the page several times, but I have not seen it again.


The google ads are usually similar to the thread topic or recent searches.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

AztecPainting said:


> Sorry buddy, I am Mexican, born and raised, I just came to Canada 8 years ago for University, yes I did finish University and while I was at University with student visa, I started painting for an almost retired journeyman painter that wanted to give me a chance (under the table, illegal, however you wanna call it) I wanted to give my parents a hand after they where paying $8000 a semester plus my rent and food ($1200 month) How much is that for a Mexican Family? I couldn't get a student loan in Canada because I was a foreign student. So, Awesome Nafta eh? At least not for Mexicans like me that want to go to school.
> 
> Call it however you want, but don't generalize and complain that illegals come to your country and steal jobs out of your people.
> 
> ...


Well, first off, you're dictating. However, I will respond to your dictation. You didn't respond at all to my comments about economics. Which is common- call somebody a racist and try to confuse the issue. 
The underground economy is a huge part of the problem. Because it can't be quantified and it leads policy makers in this country to lean towards doing things that aren't in the interest of builders because they can't account for all of us like with other industries. 
The paradox of that is this... building starts are the #1 indicator of a healthy economy. Attitudes like yours... "Who are we hurting?" Are well observed by institutions in this country that spit out statistics that say no-one is getting hurt because immigrants choose "niche" industries that aren't occupied by U.S citizens: Construction... the National Hispanic Institute is a biggy. They are co-opted by the AFL-CIO and the whole thing is rigged by gerrymandering politicians looking for the Hispanic vote. The building trades get labeled as a niche industry because of the underground economy therefore, it's not included in economic stats in full by the Department of Labor and Statistics. Therefore the only ones that are getting hurt are part of the underground economy that doesn't exist and they must deserve it anyway. 
TALK ABOUT RESPECT... Let's look at this as if the U.S. were an individual and so was Mexico. Who do you think has treated whom with more respect?


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Look at this map, shows illegal immigrant population is decreasing. Less than 4% of the US population is illegal immigrants.

I lose more bids to "illegal contractors" than I do to illegal immigrants themselves.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> I lose more bids to "illegal contractors" than I do to illegal immigrants themselves.


I would have to agree. 

They might have illegal citizens doing the work they just landed though, making it a double whammy.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> I would have to agree.
> 
> They might have illegal citizens doing the work they just landed though.


Yep, more than likely they have someone under the table, whether illegal immigrant, some guy collecting UI, on a 1099 or whatever! 

Gave me an idea for a new blog though, thanks Harry!


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

Lol.

I just saw it by backspacing.

The ad at the top of the page says:

IMMIGRATION REFORM!
Should U.S. follow Arizona's lead?

Then there is a button to "vote now"

Lol. The irony.

That expression, "it is right in front of your eyes", could not be more apropos.

The crux of this entire dialogue is literally "right in front of your eyes", at the top of the page displaying this thread.

Should U.S. follow Arizona's lead? Meaning should be a lot of new very strict legislation, and regulation allowing police, nay REQUIRING THEM to stop people and make them prove their identity even for having committed no crime.

And should we not only do it in Arizona, but should we make it a NATIONAL policy?

That is what this is about folks. Intentionally allowing illegals to flood over the borders, and doing ZERO to stop it for the last several decades allows for the argument to be made that for our own "protection" we need to as a nation implement a drastic new police state, the likes of which the U.S. has never seen before.

Here is a link to a CNN article on arizona's immigration laws:

In the article it states:



> "Arizona's bill orders immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally."


Now the "poll" at the top of this page being asked of the American public to get a pulse on what the general populous would allow at this point or not, is should we as a NATION implement the same policy stated above to make illegal aliens carry their documentation.

Sounds good doesn't it? I mean they are illegal after all. If they are illegals they should not expect the same freedoms while in U.S. borders, that legal U.S. citizens have enjoyed since the *4th amendment* was written.

But notice how the article goes on to mention the following:


> "Critics, including immigrant advocates and the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona, are concerned that the legislation will foster racial profiling, arguing that most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status."


What a conundrum? Whatever shall we do? We don't want illegals running rampant, but we also don't want to practice racial profiling. Hmmm...

Wait...I HAVE AN IDEA!....

If we require ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS to carry documentation, and be forced by laws to submit to search and seizure at any random moment, with no probable cause, then we can monitor and control the illegals, WITHOUT "unfairly" singling out people because of their race.

PAPERS PLEASE!!

------------

Let there be no doubt about one thing,

It will be impossible to implement laws that require ILLEGAL citizens to submit to "unreasonable search and seizure", without also requiring LEGAL citizens to submit to "unreasonable search and seizure", because if someone doesn't have their I.D. they can just claim to be a legal U.S. citizen, and authorities will actually have no way of distinguishing between legal U.S. citizens, and non legal U.S. citizens.

The only way Arizona's new system will work, is if they ALSO require, and or request LEGAL U.S. citizens submit to being stopped, questioned, and searched. The law will not function effectively in it's current form where the police are required to simply stop people whom they "suspect" of being illegal citizens.


http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-21/...-institute-immigrant-advocates?_s=PM:POLITICS


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> Yep, more than likely they have someone under the table, whether illegal immigrant, some guy collecting UI, on a 1099 or whatever!
> 
> Gave me an idea for a new blog though, thanks Harry!


Yep there is more than one way to operate illegally. 
Reality is for some if you cut corners somewhere you can lower the cost to operate and at the same time fatten the old wallet.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Well, first off, you're dictating. However, I will respond to your dictation. You didn't respond at all to my comments about economics. Which is common- call somebody a racist and try to confuse the issue.
> The underground economy is a huge part of the problem. Because it can't be quantified and it leads policy makers in this country to lean towards doing things that aren't in the interest of builders because they can't account for all of us like with other industries.
> The paradox of that is this... building starts are the #1 indicator of a healthy economy. Attitudes like yours... "Who are we hurting?" Are well observed by institutions in this country that spit out statistics that say no-one is getting hurt because immigrants choose "niche" industries that aren't occupied by U.S citizens: Construction... the National Hispanic Institute is a biggy. They are co-opted by the AFL-CIO and the whole thing is rigged by gerrymandering politicians looking for the Hispanic vote. The building trades get labeled as a niche industry because of the underground economy therefore, it's not included in economic stats in full by the Department of Labor and Statistics. Therefore the only ones that are getting hurt are part of the underground economy that doesn't exist and they must deserve it anyway.
> TALK ABOUT RESPECT... Let's look at this as if the U.S. were an individual and so was Mexico. Who do you think has treated whom with more respect?


Gypsy,

You make some good points that are supported with facts, and you eloquently display a solid argument, despite the conspiracy theories.

I think that the American Construction Trade Worker is being replaced with foreign talent because the Baby Boom Generation is leaving the skilled work force in droves through retirement, and are not not being replaced with Americans who have been trained, or have the interest to perform manual labor. Even when it's considered to be skilled labor.

Unfortunately, the foreign worker(AKA immigrants, illegals, whatever..) is capable of learning the technical aspects of the various trades very quickly, and demonstrate an enthusiasm, and determination to perform the necessary manual labor that's required to accomplish the job.

Try to get a youngblooded American, who hasn't served in the military, to understand this concept. That is if you can get them to stop "tweeting" for one moment to pay attention.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Gypsy,
> 
> You make some good points that are supported with facts, and you eloquently display a solid argument, despite the conspiracy theories.
> 
> ...


I know... I live in a college town. The 10th plank of the communist manifesto garauntees a stream of replacements trained by bureaucrats... to replace bureacrats... that's what is happening on our college campuses. Definitely not artisans to replace artisans or for that matter entreprenuers to replace entreprenuers. What passes for business in todays youth market is more like prostitution- ie: PIMP mentality- it's burgoening communism. Call me a conspriacy theroist or paranoid, but in 20 years, I bet you wouldn't tell me I was wrong.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Gypsy,
> 
> You make some good points that are supported with facts, and you eloquently display a solid argument, despite the conspiracy theories.
> 
> I think that the American Construction Trade Worker is being replaced with foreign talent because the Baby Boom Generation is leaving the skilled work force in droves through retirement, and are not not being replaced with Americans who have been trained, or have the interest to perform manual labor.


Really?

Then why are per square foot prices in the trades going down as a result of foreign labor? Many members of these forums have cited direct examples of this happening in their areas.

If "foreign talent" is simply filling a VOID in the labor market, then WHY are U.S. citizens having to compete tooth and nail against them to keep their jobs?

Several years ago I worked for a guy who bid an entire interior with 50 wood multi-pane windows with real mullions that needed to be finished inside and out, 30 something odd doors, floor to ceiling custom birch cabinets 10 foot ceilings all the walls etc. It was a 3 story house.

I don't remember exacty what the bid was, I think it was like $16,000.

Another company which clearly was entirely composed of illegal immigrants, put a bid on the same job same job for I think the figure was like $7,000.

The guy I worked for convinced the customers to let us do the cabinets and the windows to ensure that the windows got finished properly top, bottom, the space that houses the gear mechanism etc.

The I think the price for that was around $5000.

The illegal crew got the rest of the house, based on the assurance of the GC who ensured the customer that he would personally guarantee all their work. Only a couple of them spoke even a lick of english.

They actually did a pretty decent job too, except they sprayed all the door casings down to the unfinished hardwood floors without masking to protect where the casing meets the floor, and it costed someone a lot of money to come in and take the wood down several mils to remove the paint from the floors.

Which probably wasn't easy because those guys reduced their paint with way more lacquer thinner than I have ever seen, so the paint probably got maximum penetration into the wood.

The most annoying thing is, we were working in the house at the same time, and the two crew leaders would come watch us work, and investigated our cabinet door hanging system, and investigated the different strategies we were using for processing the windows, and we had a completely seperate area of the house to work in.

Not to mention my brand new masker dissapeared on that job one day when that crew left. Not that I assume they intentionally stole it, but it was pretty annoying that they rounded it up and took it with them. They had like 5 or 6 guys blasting that place out, they probably couldn't keep track of which tools were theirs.

--------------

In any case, Illegals are not simply helping to fill in a labor shortage because baby boomers are retiring/leaving the trades.

There are MORE people competing for the same jobs than there were when illegals were not saturating the trades.

I certainly have nothing against any human being that would cross a border and be willing to work for less than me, so that hey can survive.
Even if I wind up standing right next to an illegal immigrant in a bread line that is a result of the U.S. economy being flooded by illegals, I won't have any hard feelings towards the dude what so ever. He is a human being trying to survive, just like me. 

But lets not get distracted by the notion that the massive influx of illegals is simply filling jobs that U.S. citizens don't want to do.

Especially in the trades. U.S. citizens don't have an aversion to working in the trades.

That argument might hold some water when it comes to field work, or cleaning toilets, but not painting, roofing, sheetrock, framing, etc.

There are plenty of U.S. citizens who try to build and support a family in those trades and they are taking pay cuts, and losing their jobs/businesses to a significant degree as a result of the massive amount of illegals flooding the job market.

I don't know the exact statistics, but it wouldnt surprise me if there was more than one illegal immigrant available to replace each baby boomer who leaves the job market.

Then add to that U.S. citizens that also would like that job, and you don't have a labor shortage, you have a labor surplus.

Which is great for the uber rich, and a death knell for tradesmen who are legal U.S. citizens.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

RCP said:


> Look at this map, shows illegal immigrant population is decreasing. Less than 4% of the US population is illegal immigrants.


You gotta love the map. Here they are trying to tell us how many people are here ilegally. I mean, c'mon, they crossed the border and have no documents. How do they really no how many are here or how many left?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

LC,

It's funny you mention the masker disappearing. I was doing some work recently with others that included a crew of, lets say non English speakers, when suddenly my framing hammer goes missing. I knew these guys took it, and asked them for it. They produced it. 

The thing is, a lot of construction crews steal things from job sites. I remember working at the refineries and how it was common practice to lift tools and gear when ever the opportunity presented itself. I of course never indulged

Would you agree that the Baby Boom generation that established excellent rates for construction workers, is now diminishing in the work force?

If you're a member of a union, you may be able to hang onto those rates(as unrealistic as they may be..Point made earlier about the janitor and the teacher). But if you're out there competing against others who can do the same work as you for half the price, then that will be difficult.

And I disagree with your implication that because they,(Hispanics), are paid less, that they will do less skillful work. Maybe back in the 70's and 80's before they gained proper construction knowledge and safety awareness, but not today.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

I love my Mexican brothers and sisters..........Canadians are cool too, eh!
:thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oh, and another thing. By the time it took me to respond to LC's post, another driveway was poured, a house was framed, and an interior was painted. By foreign workers!


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

bikerboy said:


> You gotta love the map. Here they are trying to tell us how many people are here ilegally. I mean, c'mon, they crossed the border and have no documents. How do they really no how many are here or how many left?


They're not using absolute numbers, only % changes. Those can be derived (somewhat reliably), from the changes in the number of apprehended workers assuming that apprehension efforts are constant over time. Less apprehended over time is supposed to equate with actual % drops...although I could see how less strict apprehension regulations could mess up the count.

BTW, that's how the total US figure is estimated....they count how many were apprehended at the border and then multiply that by a factor that they believe "got away".

So, if the border patrol thinks that they apprehend 1 out of 4, (one apprehended and 3 entered), and they apprehend a total of 1million/month, that means that 3 million actually entered. 

They're all estimates within reason, but definitely not of census data-type rigor.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

When this is treated as a legal issue, which it is, and not a political issue, we will be experiencing more of the same.

When I was at a family gathering last week, they were talking about this and how all illegals should be granted asylum. (WTH ?!?) As you can imagine, there are times I don't fit in real well with my family....mostly brother and sisters. So I put it to them like this:

"One night I'm going to sneak in your house uninvited and illegally. I'm going to expect you to feed me, provide me with shelter, health care, food subsidies, etc.. If you complain, I'm going to protest in front of your house. If you contact the law, I'm going to call the ACLU. I will expect you to learn my language and provide me with materials and entertainment that reflect my culture. After a while, I'm going to tell you how you should run your household. And, I will probably go after your job, because I can do it cheaper than you can, and increase the profits of the company you work for. I can do this because nobody has the guts to uphold your constitution and laws. I can do this because you and your neighbors want everything cheap so you can live as you have. Soon you will have no jobs, I will be living in your house and you will struggle as I have."

They all scoffed at this until I told them to look around. But they will continue to live in their little utopian worlds until it actually hits their wallets.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

And to clarify, the post was about _illegal_ immigrants. Once they have attained legal status, they should have the same rights. Which brings another problem to light. Say they are legal, have obtained all the insurance, licenses, (if applicable), and have the necessary skills....yet they still can bid so much lower. What does that say? About them? About us?

So you have a immigrant with legal status, a bona fide citizen, who is able to hire other legals at minimum wages, non-skilled, semi-skilled, skilled. He consistently is able to bid much lower than you because his cost of living, ie; what he considers "comfortable", is below yours. How do you compete then?

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that there is more to this equation than just immigration status.


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> I guess what I'm trying to point out is that there is more to this equation than just immigration status.


I agree, I would bet that half the people who think they are loosing jobs due to illegals under cutting them due to low overhead would have lost the job anyway. Either they just did not sell, or their price was outside the clients budget. "<---this is different then someone just looking for the cheapest price" could be many reasons. But there are many guys out there that have a real hard time taking responsibility and its always the other guys fault why they are not successful. 

One other thing, here in California there are chit loads of illegals, typically you can see them all hangin out at the paint stores. Go ask one of them how much they want per hour. You will be surprised. its not 5 buck a hour like some would think, its closer to the $18.00 to $20.00 range.

Pat


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Oh, and another thing. By the time it took me to respond to LC's post, another driveway was poured, a house was framed, and an interior was painted. By foreign workers!


 











Notice the STEEP DROP at the END?

The reason this is happeing is because of the flood of illegals across the border in the 90's. People that shouldn't have built... built. Now we have overbuilt and the market is disappearing. The thinking that that has nothing to do with the policy of "look the other way so developers can become billionairs" has created a serious dilemma!

Oh and here is what CAN be quantified. Now how much of the small amount of work that is NOW available in the housing market is being done by either illegal immigrants or immigrants that gained a green card in the last ten years but who came here illegaly? That is what CANNOT be quantified.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Notice the STEEP DROP at the END?
> 
> The reason this is happeing is because of the flood of illegals across the border in the 90's.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

My personal feelings on this topic is the federal government should make the states enforce the law since it is a law. If they do not want to enforce the laws than change the laws.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> My personal feelings on this topic is the federal government should make the states enforce the law since it is a law. If they do not want to enforce the laws than change the laws.


Some states do want to enforce the law, it is the Feds that are hamstringing them, ie; Arizona. We have a local community, (Fremont, NE) that has passed laws concerning this and is now being sued. I'm going to say one thing I consider "political" about this; Politicians are trying to "buy" the votes, offering amnesty to illegals.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

y.painting said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession


 
Thanks for making my point Yari. There simply would not have been a housing bubble were it not fot illegal immigration. It's deeper than that, but S. and Central America has alot of culpability in this global crisis by rushing the border. But try to make that point and I'm a racist. Thing is.. we WON"T GET OUT OF IT UNTIL WE COME TO REALISE THIS- and dialogue it, with Mexico and other contributors.
But we won't, simply because it was planned to go this way to socialise the N.American continent. At some point- labor will have to unionize. But by the time that happens- labor cost will be so low that unions will be considered benificial to capitalists. Because as we know- socialism is a myth. It's preditorial capitalism- using organized labor against itself to be the elite ruling class and policy classes bitch. The rates will be locked. 
There couldn't have been a bubble. In the eighties, it was too expensive for every American to buy a spec home or build one. Materials were, as they should have been, higher in ratio to income... AND SO WAS PRODUCTION COST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AS it should have been! Young americans wanted to go into the trades because the money was good. Now they don't because the money is decreasing by the minute. 



Artisans are seen as prostitutes. Told that if they don't want to compete with cheap then they're lazy bitches. That makes the deal like a prostitution ring and the painting industry has adopted it as a business model. First- be pimp (a "business owner") Then get a hooker- (a laborer that masqurades as a "painter")- then exploit a John- a "homeowner."
Put all of the pressure on the hooker to perform all of the work- and get the industrial diseases while you sit in a house you rented to run your scam- PLEASE the John and collect the CHECK and bring it to the PIMP. COLLEGE WORKS PAINTING in other words and all of the spring ups that have modeld themselves after that, It's a growing trend.
And if the Hooker doesn't bring the check... tell it it didn't work hard enough, is a lazy bitch and throw it in the river and get a new one.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> There simply would not have been a housing bubble were it not fot illegal immigration.


Yeah, all them pesky illegals buying up all of them homes at enormous price to earnings ratios and all them illegal Mexican expatriate bankers making loans to their comrades without checking credit worthiness and then selling them debts as collateral to others and then....:whistling2:


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

*double dipping*

To clarify about conspiracy theory. It's not a conspiracy, and not a theory. It's called poilcy making elitism. Not the illuminatti...- they are actually the good guys. Masons. One thing they KNOW is that building is a CORNERSTONE of the constitution and a pillar of this economy. Illumination is merely discernment and knowing.
This is something different. A cloud of confusion caused by policy oriented people that start 5013c's to further an agenda that they think is more compassionate than free enterprize. And Latin America has been a pawn in the game, both in their own countries as well as here.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

y.painting said:


> Yeah, all them pesky illegals buying up all of them homes at enormous price to earnings ratios and all them illegal Mexican expatriate bankers making loans to their comrades without checking credit worthiness and then selling them debts as collateral to others and then....:whistling2:


 
What? I didn't say it had anything to do with illegals buying anything... building for less than average drove rates down and greed up.

And hey dude... just because you can't assign your home country to any accountabilty- you really shouldn't pretend that this isn't really happening. We're sliding into a depression. What IS LAtin Americas part? Nothing?????????


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

My home country is the US of A and I hold it fully accountable! My parents were from the Ukraine.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

y.painting said:


> My home country is the US of A and I hold it fully accountable! My parents were from the Ukraine.


By an earlier post that you made it led me to think that you were Mexican. My mistake. My point stands! And will for a long after your denial of the real problem fades!

Address the issue Yaros.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

I am not denying that there is an immigration problem in the US.

I AM denying that illegal immigration caused the housing bubble. Low interest rates combined with risky mortgage products and *very *lax lending standards are the culprits here. Housing bubbles happened long before immigration was an issue and often occur in other countries that have extremely stringent immigration laws.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

y.painting said:


> I am not denying that there is an immigration problem in the US.
> 
> I AM denying that illegal immigration caused the housing bubble. Low interest rates combined with risky mortgage products and *very *lax lending standards are the culprits here. Housing bubbles happened long before immigration was an issue and often occur in other countries that have extremely stringent immigration laws.


 
That's why we won't get out of it- because people won't do the math. I also didn't say it CAUSED the housing bubble. I said that the housing bubble could not have been if building had not been so cheap. And building would not have been so cheap were it not for illegal immigration. Illegal immigration would not have happend were it not for outsourcing by U.S. companies to exploit Mexico. Outsourcing would not have been without NeoLiberalist policy. Neoliberalist policy would not have been but for a lack of Law Of Virtue!

BTW- I love Barac Obama. He's my brother. But I don't like his policies. Same as Mexico. If someone shows up at my door- I feed them. But isn't that how the U.S. got taken advantage? Now it's demand! Where's the virtue?

Now, what we have is a choice between is neoliberalsm and Progressivism. Progressives point to Neoliberal policy to define free enterprize. But just like you, denying that illegal immigration completed the circuit- The world markets deny that Law of Virtue is the only thing that will keep the globe from ruin because they get that confused with god! And every day more and more... God is a four letter word. Neoliberism doesn't define free enterprize. It defines policy of greed is good. Capitalism is the only economic system period. It just takes on different faces- when you organize labor into a body, in a socialist manner it's just one individual- that still works for the ruling class that sells the products on a capitalist market.
And don't you know that George Soros doesn't care... he will get his way either way. He sees himself as a god.
He made a billion dollars in one day wrecking the British economy so he could then manipulate ours. And it all ties together to make you and I his bitch!


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> ...the housing bubble could not have been if building had not been so cheap. And building would not have been so cheap were it not for illegal immigration.


The cart is before the horse, I'm afraid. Were it not for lax lending standards, the belief that everyone should own a home, and risky mortgage products, there wouldn't be a need for cheap building and thus, there wouldn't be as many workers building cheap.

Illegals didn't force the cheap building onto the over-optimistic, over-leveraged, and under-funded consumer. The industry demand drove the production of the said cheap buildings.


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Would you agree that the Baby Boom generation that established excellent rates for construction workers, is now diminishing in the work force?


Yes, I agree. But I think there are more illegals vying for those jobs than there are baby boomers leaving them.



CApainter said:


> And I disagree with your implication that because they,(Hispanics), are paid less, that they will do less skillful work. Maybe back in the 70's and 80's before they gained proper construction knowledge and safety awareness, but not today.


I certainly did not mean to imply that.

ON the contrary, that is the scary thing, they have it down now.

Back in the 80's and early 90's illegal painting crews did not bother me, they did not infringe on my market because they did not know how complete a project from top to bottom at a 5 star level..

When people would hire illegals for jobs, it always looked like crap, and it would be obvious that "you get what you pay for"

But now, enough people have hired them, that they learned how to paint, and they actually are capable of doing very excellent work, for pennies on the dollar.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

y.painting said:


> The cart is before the horse, I'm afraid. Were it not for lax lending standards, the belief that everyone should own a home, and risky mortgage products, there wouldn't be a need for cheap building and thus, there wouldn't be as many workers building cheap.
> 
> Illegals didn't force the cheap building onto the over-optimistic, over-leveraged, and under-funded consumer. The industry demand drove the production of the said cheap buildings.


Who would have done the work??? They completed the circuit... which is one thing most U.S. citizens are much more hesitant to do even now. I won't work for less than a certain amount becasue I am unwilling to take part in my own... and your destruction and there are many like me. And that is Virtue and it is WHAT SHOULD REGULATE THE MARKET PLACE!

I suppose you feel the same way that demand for cocaine in the projects of America meant that it was good business for Mexicans to smuggle it over the border by the ton. Therefore taking numbers of able minded and bodied U.S. citizens out of the way by, incapacitating- criminalizing and ruining futures for a few million black youths; creating space for them. That's where the conspiracy lies and if you call me a liar or crazy... I will tell you this: That your denial of it as fact is the ignorance that will ruin constitutional America!


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## Last Craftsman (Dec 5, 2008)

y.painting said:


> I AM denying that illegal immigration caused the housing bubble. Low interest rates combined with risky mortgage products and *very *lax lending standards are the culprits here. .



You guys are both right.

You are arguing that the right arm is culprit, he is arguing that the left arm is the culprit.

But larger picture is that BOTH arms are attached to the same body.

The mortgage crisis was INTENTIONALLY ENGINEERED to crash. And at the same time, global eilite were INTENTIONALLY allowing/promoting the flooding of the borders with immigrants to destabilize the economy.

There is a larger picture here.

There are globalists who want to CONSOLIDATE POWER.

Just like corporations, corporations consolidate as much power as possible.

That is what is happening on a social scale.

The more consolidated the population is, the easier it is to control them.

having lots of different cultures, separated by different customs, and different beliefs, traditions etc, makes it more difficult to extend control over the people of the planet.

By consolidating the cultures, giving them ubiquitous currencies, establishing international laws and regulations instead of a myriad of different laws and regulations that govern each country, global elite gain more power and more control.

It is all about consolidation. On this continent, and others.

Gotta look at the big picture.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

y.painting said:


> My home country is the US of A and I hold it fully accountable! My parents were from the Ukraine.


 
What?!? I suppose that now we have to keep an eye open for Hispanic Ukrainians!?! My gawd, what's this country coming to..............:blink:


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

y.painting said:


> The cart is before the horse, I'm afraid. Were it not for lax lending standards, the belief that everyone should own a home, and risky mortgage products, there wouldn't be a need for cheap building and thus, there wouldn't be as many workers building cheap.
> 
> Illegals didn't force the cheap building onto the over-optimistic, over-leveraged, and under-funded consumer. The industry demand drove the production of the said cheap buildings.





Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Who would have done the work??? They completed the circuit


It's not a circular issue, it's a linear one. The problem has to be dealt with at the root instead of attacking the stem. 

The root of the problem was the mortgage and banking industry and naive consumers who felt that they deserved a home at 20-30X their earnings. At the root were lenders who leveraged such consumers and then used that leverage as collateral against other lending schemes.

Kill the root - the stem will die; leave the root in - the stem will grow back!


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Last Craftsman said:


> Yes, I agree. But I think there are more illegals vying for those jobs than there are baby boomers leaving them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be too sure of that LC. I've seen some fantastic workmanship, both in the modern and old school design in some of these countries. Stuff the average American worker would be hard pressed to copy...if not for just the cost of doing so. This country has produced more than it's share of over-priced hacks.:yes:


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Wolfgang said:


> What?!? I suppose that now we have to keep an eye open for Hispanic Ukrainians!?! My gawd, what's this country coming to..............:blink:


Hispanic Ukrainians are a pest indeed. Not only will their men undercut the legitimate local contractors during the day, their women will undercut all of the local restaurants in the evening with their delicious borsch and perogies sidewalk carts


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

You dont have to tell me about Euro/Russo food.....when I was a kid I thought "Husky" was a name of blue jeans.....not a size. LOL

We had a Lithuanian housekeeper who made some of the best pastries also.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

*Time is linear- Memory's a stranger-History is for fools- man is tool*



y.painting said:


> It's not a circular issue, it's a linear one. The problem has to be dealt with at the root instead of attacking the stem.
> 
> The root of the problem was the mortgage and banking industry and naive consumers who felt that they deserved a home at 20-30X their earnings. At the root were lenders who leveraged such consumers and then used that leverage as collateral against other lending schemes.
> 
> Kill the root - the stem will die; leave the root in - the stem will grow back!


 
The root of the problem is obfuscation of the constitution my man, no one industry is responsible. The link that you mention is merely another link in the chain of failure, another brick in the wall and yes... they completed the circuitry of a bomb that went off blew up in all of our faces. You can't make a loan on something that is not there in the first place. Even though an unbuilt house is not physically there. It might as well be for the purposes of getting a loan. The 20 to 30x their earning is based on inflated values anyway because truly my friend, those houses that were selling in the state of Florida for 3/4 of a mil. Only cost 60 grand to bulid. Thanks to cheap labor and materials. Rate limiters are their for a reason. 

It's by no means whatever the root. It would be more accurate to say that the invention of the central banking system and the enactment of the Federal Reserve in 1914 is the root. But even that, you would have to go further back to antebellum philosphy to find out where we went wrong. Alas I can't argue anymore. Save to say. Culpability is in the hands of all who touched the hot wire! Recovery begins with admitting that you have a problem.


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## Capt-sheetrock (Feb 10, 2008)

Did you really say "history is for fools)??


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Capt-sheetrock said:


> Did you really say "history is for fools)??


It's Roger Waters. A socialist to the core... but I do love this song. 
A good one for the times. Should have put that whistling smiley up.:whistling2:







I was making a comment about the fact that Yaros said that housing bubbles keep happening over and over, Then he said it was a linear problem. Not if history repeats itself over and over. It becomes a circular problem then.????


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Who would have done the work??? They completed the circuit... which is one thing most U.S. citizens are much more hesitant to do even now. I won't work for less than a certain amount becasue I am unwilling to take part in my own... and your destruction and there are many like me. And that is Virtue and it is WHAT SHOULD REGULATE THE MARKET PLACE!
> 
> I suppose you feel the same way that demand for cocaine in the projects of America meant that it was good business for Mexicans to smuggle it over the border by the ton. Therefore taking numbers of able minded and bodied U.S. citizens out of the way by, incapacitating- criminalizing and ruining futures for a few million black youths; creating space for them. That's where the conspiracy lies and if you call me a liar or crazy... I will tell you this: That your denial of it as fact is the ignorance that will ruin constitutional America!


You must be under forty years of age Gypsy, or you'd realize that illegal Mexicans were working under the table, for unscrupulous contractors, long before crack was even discovered.

I would agree that builders and realtors exploited low wages, compared to union wages, and over developed the single family dwelling in the hope of earning huge profit margins. Particularly in California. 

But who would have you hired, as a builder, to build subdivisions in the 90's?


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

CApainter said:


> You must be under forty years of age Gypsy, or you'd realize that illegal Mexicans were working under the table, for unscrupulous contractors, long before crack was even discovered.
> 
> I would agree that builders and realtors exploited low wages, compared to union wages, and over developed the single family dwelling in the hope of earning huge profit margins. Particularly in California.
> 
> But who would have you hired, as a builder, to build subdivisions in the 90's?


I'm 42. I am aware, pretty thoroughly, of immigration in U.S. history. I've studied it for quite some time now. I don't want to have to write a book to explain myself. If you can't get the connections then fine.


As a builder, I would hire independent subs that were U.S. citizens always. No unions in the south and no need when independent contractors didn't need to price fix in order to keep going rates at a good level. That's the way things used to be. But as to the real question behind your question. The fact is, that the number of homes that were built... AND COMMERCIAL properties, would have been far fewer if developers didn't have the opportunity to get a house built for 25.00 per square foot as opposed to 50.00 per square foot. Banks wouldn't have lent the money. In other words, independent contractors would have been the rate limiter, of building starts, through the 90's and 2000s by setting their own prices high enough to be a determining factor in whether somebody built or not... and they were a rate limiter until the third wave or so. That should be the natural flow of the marketplace in a sovereign nation with a constitution that makes us all individual contractors from the onset as long as we are covered under that constitution. As well it protects resources from being used up too rapidly in one generation. That's what borders are for! People cry protectionism over objections to whether a foreigner can work here or not.... but listen, the consumer class of independent contractors is an important part of the economy. You screw it up and ALL kinds of unbalanced things happen.
I can't believe that I have to explain basic real estate to you.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

That's it! I'm going underground :jester:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The above post (post #132) is a joke and is not intended to be taken serious. Any one that takes the above post (post #132) serious ought to consult their physician prior to any action due to the above post (post #132).


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> I'm 42. I am aware, pretty thoroughly, of immigration in U.S. history. I've studied it for quite some time now. I don't want to have to write a book to explain myself. If you can't get the connections then fine.
> 
> 
> As a builder, I would hire independent subs that were U.S. citizens always. No unions in the south and no need when independent contractors didn't need to price fix in order to keep going rates at a good level. That's the way things used to be. But as to the real question behind your question. The fact is, that the number of homes that were built... AND COMMERCIAL properties, would have been far fewer if developers didn't have the opportunity to get a house built for 25.00 per square foot as opposed to 50.00 per square foot. Banks wouldn't have lent the money. In other words, independent contractors would have been the rate limiter, of building starts, through the 90's and 2000s by setting their own prices high enough to be a determining factor in whether somebody built or not... and they were a rate limiter until the third wave or so. That should be the natural flow of the marketplace in a sovereign nation with a constitution that makes us all individual contractors from the onset as long as we are covered under that constitution. As well it protects resources from being used up too rapidly in one generation. That's what borders are for! People cry protectionism over objections to whether a foreigner can work here or not.... but listen, the consumer class of independent contractors is an important part of the economy. You screw it up and ALL kinds of unbalanced things happen.
> I can't believe that I have to explain basic real estate to you.


Actually, I appreciate your explanations, research, and conclusions.

My comments, on the other hand, have no authority, or solid research to back them up. They are simply observations made working as a painter since the mid 70's.

I am not condoning using illegal help, but rather trying to describe (based on my experience) the CURRENT situation in the work force. And trying to determine what would be the best solution for this problem. 

Gypsy, your insight into the genesis of the problem, and the motives of those in power, are certainly intriguing. But what is the solution?

Mass deportation?- I can't imagine what the logistics would be like to accomplish this. Not to mention this "cleansing" approach has Nazi State written all over it.

Stricter border controls?- Hell yes!. Why haven't we done this long ago?. (Insert your political views here). We have the resources and technology, hopefully, we'll have the commitment to use it.

Enforcement of current laws and penalties for using illegal help?-Again, Hell yes! Why aren't the laws being enforced (insert political comment here).

Assimilation of current foreign workers in the construction trade?- By assimilation I mean that foreign workers should follow the same working guidelines, and conditions meant for American workers. Basically, to become legitimate. (Then again, not all American workers are legitimate...Drifting..)

Trade schools for students?- My take on this is, there isn't enough emphasis to learn skilled labor, and therefore not enough opportunity. How many parents out there are telling their kids, "I don't want you to work as hard as I've had to. I want you to get a higher education so you can use your brain, and not your back" ? A whole new generation of Americans can replace the skilled positions left by the retiring Baby Boomers, given the opportunity.


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

RCP said:


> Look at this map, shows illegal immigrant population is decreasing. Less than 4% of the US population is illegal immigrants.
> ....................


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

this whole thread is fear based. Look, we all are concerned about our welfare and that of our progeny. Lets work through the fear and get into living our lives with courage!


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> this whole thread is fear based. Look, we all are concerned about our welfare and that of our progeny. Lets work through the fear and get into living our lives with courage!


What I've written TJ, is a product of courage. What you're saying is a do nothing stragedy. It's not all good! The courage to stand up for your own country when the rest of the world, even the ones with deplorable human rights history, are trying to change America from the outside in.
In the past, it's been helpful, not only to us but to the rest of the world. 
But it isn't anymore. Times change and we need to change with it in our way not theirs! I agree with living our lives with courage. But if we don't understand the problems then we can't change them. Reconciliation is the product of reckoning. Reckoning is accounting.
We need to address Mexico and they need to address us with grievances. We need to suggest a living wage for their economy and be willing to help. Or we need to talk about annexation. But as it now, we respect their border too much to invade their country with our military to stomp out cartels and drug lords and brotherhoods of violence. But we have all the rights in the world to kill a few hundred thousand Iraqis.
We HAVE been invaded!

So as CApainter asked- here are some solutions to think about. 
Addressing Latin America and saying,"no more" for a while. Taking the Colossus plaque down underneath the statue of liberty and replaciing it with another plaque that say's, "sorry for any inconvenience but due to the pursuit of domestic tranquility and in the spirit of tending our own house, we are out of the immigration business until further notice." Thank you Sincerely- The former immigrants. 
P.S. you might want to think about changing your own country, we can help.

On a more doable level. It's actually black youth that needs more help in assimilating into the trades more than Latinos now that Latin America has stolen the space. It was the same thing as the calvary giving whiskey to indians. Explotation.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

this stuff is above my current pay grade. I'll stick with paying my bills on time and making sure my baby has enough diapers.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> RCP said:
> 
> 
> > Look at this map, shows illegal immigrant population is decreasing. Less than 4% of the US population is illegal immigrants.
> ...


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Are you kidding? I don't see a whole lot of subjectivity on this thread.
But to put thing in more reality than you have on your own thread. Mrs. Smith was worth about 3/4 of a million dollars. But when the economy crashed, she lost 40%. Now she's worth about 3 hundred thousand and her earning days are through. She can't afford to have her house painted professionally at all.


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Are you kidding? I don't see a whole lot of subjectivity on this thread.
> But to put thing in more reality than you have on your own thread. Mrs. Smith was worth about 3/4 of a million dollars. But when the economy crashed, she lost 40%. Now she's worth about 3 hundred thousand and her earning days are through. She can't afford to have her house painted professionally at all.


Not my point.

My point is that Mrs' Smith is not apt to hire the "three amigos", period. So if she does, there's a lot more riding on this than money...namely appearance, conduct, the whole nine yards...and no, i'm not kidding.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Some of you should be more concerned with attracting customers that can tell the difference between skilled work and non skilled work.

Too many "painting contractors" need an excuse for their failures. Why not blame someone that doesnt speak the language?


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Are you kidding? I don't see a whole lot of subjectivity on this thread.
> But to put thing in more reality than you have on your own thread. Mrs. Smith was worth about 3/4 of a million dollars. But when the economy crashed, she lost 40%. Now she's worth about 3 hundred thousand and her earning days are through. She can't afford to have her house painted professionally at all.


Ohhhhh...you're talking about THAT Mrs. Smith?

Hah, I was talking about the Mrs. Smith who is 32, lives in middle class and has a husband who normally doesn't like hispanics. They're earning days are still going strong...that's how I see it...there's your subjectivity


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

Wallpaper Gypsy said:


> Are you kidding? I don't see a whole lot of subjectivity on this thread.
> But to put thing in more reality than you have on your own thread. Mrs. Smith was worth about 3/4 of a million dollars. But when the economy crashed, she lost 40%. Now she's worth about 3 hundred thousand and her earning days are through. She can't afford to have her house painted professionally at all.


She used Bernie, too, eh?


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## Wallpaper Gypsy (Feb 22, 2010)

Harry said:


> Ohhhhh...you're talking about THAT Mrs. Smith?
> 
> Hah, I was talking about the Mrs. Smith who is 32, lives in middle class and has a husband who normally doesn't like hispanics. They're earning days are still going strong...that's how I see it...there's your subjectivity


Oh her... She's a hottie huh? Like to paint her by the square foot!:yes:

*er... her house by the square foot of course.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

.,.,.,


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Some of you should be more concerned with attracting customers that can tell the difference between skilled work and non skilled work.
> 
> Too many "painting contractors" need an excuse for their failures. Why not blame someone that doesnt speak the language?


That's assuming that all illegal immigrants in the trades are non-skilled Chris. But you're right, too many spend the time looking over their shoulders when they should be looking ahead.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> That's assuming that all illegal immigrants in the trades are non-skilled Chris.quote]
> 
> My version of a skilled painter and your version of a skilled painter are probably two very different things.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> My version of a skilled painter and your version of a skilled painter are probably two very different things.


Cause he doesn't do the painter for a day


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Wolfgang said:
> 
> 
> > That's assuming that all illegal immigrants in the trades are non-skilled Chris.quote]
> ...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > I would doubt that very much. Save your personal jabs for someone who doesnt know your games.
> ...


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Some of you should be more concerned with attracting customers that can tell the difference between skilled work and non skilled work.
> 
> Too many "painting contractors" need an excuse for their failures. Why not blame someone that doesnt speak the language?


yeah SOME OF YOU!!!

(edited by mod)


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Games? No games here Wolf, just assumtions made off of observations here.




yeah, because the internet is a great way to get to know people...

hoo boy, you are a goldmine of "lol"...please keep posting.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

WisePainter said:


> yeah, because the internet is a great way to get to know people...
> 
> hoo boy, you are a goldmine of "lol"...please keep posting.


Well Wise, if people decide to come to a online forum and discuss how they conduct business with their peers are they not subject to criticism on how they conduct business? Take yourself for example. When you first came here you told us how you are a multi generation painter and you excell in faux painting but used to work for a big company cranking out box stores and such. Later you demonstrated some of your work which was critiqued and you did not like the response. (not just from me or Verm). You then explained how you have no licence or insurance and compete with legitimate companies but win your projects not on price but by quality. These comments were also critiqued and you did not like the responses. 

If you dont want people criticizing you "business" or work then stop posting. 

I have posted several of my projects and discussed to great lenght how I do business. Fire away!


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Well Wise, if people decide to come to a online forum and discuss how they conduct business with their peers are they not subject to criticism on how they conduct business? Take yourself for example. When you first came here you told us how you are a multi generation painter and you excell in faux painting but used to work for a big company cranking out box stores and such. Later you demonstrated some of your work which was critiqued and you did not like the response. (not just from me or Verm). You then explained how you have no licence or insurance and compete with legitimate companies but win your projects not on price but by quality. These comments were also critiqued and you did not like the responses.
> 
> If you dont want people criticizing you "business" or work then stop posting.
> 
> I have posted several of my projects and discussed to great lenght how I do business. Fire away!


Good points. But how do you know when one is just bullsh!tting? You don't.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Well Wise, if people decide to come to a online forum and discuss how they conduct business with their peers are they not subject to criticism on how they conduct business? Take yourself for example. When you first came here you told us how you are a multi generation painter and you excell in faux painting but used to work for a big company cranking out box stores and such. Later you demonstrated some of your work which was critiqued and you did not like the response. (not just from me or Verm). You then explained how you have no licence or insurance and compete with legitimate companies but win your projects not on price but by quality. These comments were also critiqued and you did not like the responses.
> 
> If you dont want people criticizing you "business" or work then stop posting.
> 
> I have posted several of my projects and discussed to great lenght how I do business. Fire away!



lol, touchy NEPS is touchy!

So, when you say "fire away", you are giving me license to open you up like a can of delicious sardines in tomato sauce without fear of banzorz?

oops, food reference, my bad.


lol.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Wolfgang said:
> 
> 
> > That's assuming that all illegal immigrants in the trades are non-skilled Chris.quote]
> ...


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

This is the illegals thread not the radio shack one. I only like to divulge that I am a hack in PM's and the phone calls. 

Will tonight be the night this axe is finally buried, or will it be another going for the jugular evening? Could go either way right?


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

KLaw said:


> This suprises me. You are taking a dig at Wolf who is one of the most respected posters on this forum and for good reason. He developed a respectful business, treats his employees with dignity and runs his biz with integrity. I'm pretty sure his version of a skilled employee is dead on.


^this.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> Good points. But how do you know when one is just bullsh!tting? You don't.


Your welcome to come to Boston anytime you like. You can shadow me for as long as you like.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > This suprises me. You are taking a dig at Wolf who is one of the most respected posters on this forum and for good reason. He developed a respectful business, treats his employees with dignity and runs his biz with integrity. I'm pretty sure his version of a skilled employee is dead on.
> ...


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> This is the illegals thread not the radio shack one. I only like to divulge that I am a hack in PM's and the phone calls.
> 
> Will tonight be the night this axe is finally buried, or will it be another going for the jugular evening? Could go either way right?


lol.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Your welcome to come to Boston anytime you like. You can shadow me for as long as you like.


LOL. I'd love to but I don't think you could afford my consultation charges. Rule number 1: Don't think you know everything. Rule number 2: See rule number 1. :thumbsup:


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Your welcome to come to Boston anytime you like. You can shadow me for as long as you like.



Hey everybody, let's go visit NEPS!!!

sorry man, I have a life and the internet is as close as I ever wish to be near you.

besides, what would you hide behind after flappin'your yaaaaaaapper?

"uh, I can see you NEPS."
"No you can't Wise!!"
"yes, yes I can."
"no!"
"yes."


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> > This suprises me. You are taking a dig at Wolf who is one of the most respected posters on this forum and for good reason. He developed a respectful business, treats his employees with dignity and runs his biz with integrity. I'm pretty sure his version of a skilled employee is dead on.
> ...


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

KLaw said:


> LOL. I'd love to but I don't think you could afford my consultation charges. Rule number 1: Don't think you know everything. Rule number 2: See rule number 1. :thumbsup:





WisePainter said:


> Hey everybody, let's go visit NEPS!!!
> 
> sorry man, I have a life and the internet is as close as I ever wish to be near you.
> 
> ...


Funny stuff.

You guys have a open invitation to see if I am full of sh!t or not.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> KLaw said:
> 
> 
> > I dont see anything disrespectful with my statement. Wolf has taken his fair share of shots in my direction but that was not my intention. I am quite sure that Wolf and I have two very different views on illegal immigration. My nature of painting business is also different than his so between our different views and very different models I am making the assumption that we have very different opinions on what constitutes a skilled employee.
> ...


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Funny stuff.
> 
> You guys have a open invitation to see if I am full of sh!t or not.


Actually, I don't think your full of it. I'm sure you are succesfull at what you do. Hats off to that - it's not easy. I just get frustrated with you thinking you know it all. You don't. Nobody does. And just because somebody is successfull at something you disagree with doesn't give you the right to be dis-respectfull. Pretty immature. Again - JMO.


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## KLaw (May 8, 2009)

NEPS.US said:


> Funny stuff.
> 
> You guys have a open invitation to see if I am full of sh!t or not.


Actually, I'd love to roll with you (or any other pro) for a week or two. I am sure I'd learn a thing a two. Always keep an open mind and never stop learning.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

NEPS.US said:


> Interesting how both of you took it defensivley.



I only drew the line when you and Verm have involved my children...otherwise, no.

now you on the other hand with your "polls"...


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

its about time to get a room you three.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> its about time to get a room you three.



rowr, rowr!


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

and make a vid that you can use in a marketing campaign...

I think there was a thread about marketing to the gblt community this past year...


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Are we seeing PT history tonight? Will Wise and Neps and Klaw finally make peace, are they going to be bumping fists and patting each other on the back yelling bro's before hoes? 

If not why not take this to PM's or maybe to the zone where it can at least be contained.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Are we seeing PT history tonight? Will Wise and Neps and Klaw finally make peace, are they going to be bumping fists and patting each other on the back yelling bro's before hoes?
> 
> If not why not take this to PM's or maybe to the zone where it can at least be contained.


Let's not get too excited Sean. I prefer to stay on my own island, thank you.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Okay, to set the "record" straight; I don't have any problem with NEPS, VP, or any of the other members here, other than when it comes to the personal digs, degredation, etc.. Any of these guys have posted some helpful business and product information over the course of time and I have valued their insight, information, and experience, whether I fully agree with it or not. Even the playful banter is humorous at times. I will not, (and urge others to do the same), make any personal judgements based on internet personas.

Most of us are guilty of throwing out the "bait" to see who bites. My reference to NEPS on the definition of a skilled painter was just to let him know that I wasn't taking the bait....nothing more. I for one, as stated, do value NEPS as an asset to this forum. I did urge both he and VP to return to the forum after their self-imposed "exile" last year. I felt that both have and could continue to share viable trade/business information, and I still do. Other than that, we all have our days dont we?

BTW: I'd be willing to bet that NEPS and I have the same definition of skilled painter. You dont last in this business very long, or grow your business, not knowing it. Seriously, for those of us who are/were business owners, whether in the bucket or not, have to rely on skilled workers. The obvious success that NEPS has experienced shows that he does know the definition. (Do not take the prior sentence as sarcasm!)


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Workaholic said:


> Are we seeing PT history tonight? Will Wise and Neps and Klaw finally make peace, are they going to be bumping fists and patting each other on the back yelling bro's before hoes?
> 
> If not why not take this to PM's or maybe to the zone where it can at least be contained.


YES!!!!!



NEPS.US said:


> Let's not get too excited Sean. I prefer to stay on my own island, thank you.


no....




"If you want to travel fast, travel alone. If you want to travel far, go with others."

we will all be here waiting for you NEPS, no pressure.


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## 4MasterPainter (Apr 2, 2010)

*The answer is No!*

Well the liability is too big too risk and if they found out about this, they could shut down your company so easy now days. 

We had a bad experience one time we thought we had a legit employee until we got a letter that he's not. And you know what he got injured during the job and he claimed the insurance and cost us a lot money and he wanted to sue us because we didn't pay for his medical enough? What? 

Don't give me wrong they work really good, hard and are not afraid to work (hard working people) but without the papers work is just hard!

Now we use E-verify, it's so easy and you'll find out about your NEW employer's ss is legit or not right away. (E-verify only works for new employees, it's against the law to check your previous employees).


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## dubinpainting (Feb 16, 2010)

TJ Paint said:


> yeah, some companies are getting the crackdown for 1099ing instead of w2ing.


There is nothing wrong with 1099ing but I would only hire AMERICAN citizens. Keep the money in our econemy.


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## johnthepainter (Apr 1, 2008)

the white dudes i use are pretty lazy, and i have to stay on them,,,,when i do that i get some good work out of them. but the mexicans show up early, work hard all day, and want more. they even stop by when i tell them there is no work. i just need to speak louder, and use my arms and hands all waving around to make my point. they also bring these huge bags of breakfast burritos full of eggs, chorizo, and my favorite>potatoes. god bless these hardworking brown people from the south,,,,i just dont want to pay for their healthcare, foodstamps, or housing. 

learn to speak spanish, this isnt going away,,,,big business and your politicians want it this way. embrace it, profit off of it, and god bless america!


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## Harry (Aug 4, 2008)

high fibre said:


> the white dudes i use are pretty lazy, and i have to stay on them,,,,when i do that i get some good work out of them. but the mexicans show up early, work hard all day, and want more. they even stop by when i tell them there is no work. i just need to speak louder, and use my arms and hands all waving around to make my point. they also bring these huge bags of breakfast burritos full of eggs, chorizo, and my favorite>potatoes. god bless these hardworking brown people from the south,,,,i just dont want to pay for their healthcare, foodstamps, or housing.
> 
> learn to speak spanish, this isnt going away,,,,big business and your politicians want it this way. embrace it, profit off of it, and god bless america!


There is no other way to do it except to create a special amnesty program to get these people out from hiding..and get them on the right track. You're right from what I've witnessed also...good people mostly...


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Harry said:


> There is no other way to do it except to create a special amnesty program to get these people out from hiding..and get them on the right track. You're right from what I've witnessed also...good people mostly...


they (Mexicans) have worker visas, they (Mexicans) make up 99% of the companies that thrive here in K.C.

The 1% is the white owner of the company...

smart white man indeed.


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