# Window staining, wood deck staining and metal rail painting...



## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Hi all, like your feedback on a job I'm bidding on. I'm interested in process and materials mostly. I've attached some photos.

The first part is painting the railing. I'm thinking sanding with a metal wheel, priming and then rolling instead of spraying because of overspray. I would also remove the wire railings. Any thoughts? It looks like this is the first time the railings are being painted since leaving the factory.

The second part of the project is staining the exterior window frames. I was going to sand down to bare wood, fix the wood rot with Bondo, and then stain. Does anyone have a favorite stain? I'm looking for something that is weather resistant and lasts. Is my process okay?
And the last part is staining the side of the house, deck and stairs. Here I was going to power wash, sand and stain.


































































Look forward to your feedback and suggestions.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Looks like a beautiful house! What kind of wood are you working with? That will make a difference in product selection.

Re: Deck/stairs: 

This is a deck we just did today.

We used Cabot's Semi-solid oil based stain (which I usually prefer when given the option). I like it because it is predictable (in regards to how it will look and act). It is easy to maintain, just clean and re-coat about every 3 years.

I like to use semi-solid on decks that are older and "weathered" and in need of a slight camouflage to hide some of the discoloration. It wears away in about 3+ years under normal circumstances. It penetrates the wood slightly better than a solid, but unifies the appearance, while still offering some variation of color (ie., you can see knots and some dark light variation, but not grain).

Will likely recommend a "Solid" Oil Based Stain going forward. when it needs to be re-stained.

*Note- not appropriate for Ipe wood.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Looks like a beautiful house! What kind of wood are you working with? That will make a difference in product selection.
> 
> Re: Deck/stairs:
> 
> ...


Nice looking work.

After seeing some product failure with a 'hardwood stain' due to a combination of insufficient surface prep and poor application last year the only thing I recommend going forward is shipnshore on Ipe and other exotics. You can't mess it up, it won't peel and just requires a cleaning/brightner prior to reapplication


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Re: metal railings

I would not use a sanding wheel, as it would be best if you could avoid burning though the factory paint. Raw metal must be primed before painting.

Instead, use either a sanding sponge and/or a scotch brite pad to scuff the surface (abrade/de-gloss).

Then thoroughly clean the surface with a cleaner/degreaser.

Allow to dry

A 4" mini roller with a short pile nap of 1/4 - 3/8" can be used effectively (also taping off anything you wish to avoid getting paint on) with a DTM (Direct to Metal) enamel.

*Do not over-apply enamel, but instead listen for the sound of "sizzling bacon" when rolling it on to ensure you are applying the correct amount. An extender can be added to most paints to extend open time, and eliminate roller texture. 

Finish completely one section at a time, before moving the next section.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks the deck looks beautiful the way it is?

As for the windows, all I can say is stay away from Ben Moore. I love their paint, hate their stains. I am still looking for that a stain to love, and I still haven't found it. PPG Proluxe 1 and 23 (formerly Sikkens Cetol) looks pretty good on windows and doors, but it is a three-coat system, so it takes a second.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Re: metal railings
> 
> I would not use a sanding wheel, as it would be best if you could avoid burning though the factory paint. Raw metal must be primed before painting.
> 
> ...


I love the sizzling bacon analogy..I'll be using that to train people from now on


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## floydthepoor (Aug 19, 2021)

becolouring said:


> Hi all, like your feedback on a job I'm bidding onShowbox  jiofi.local.html tplinklogin . I'm interested in process and materials mostly. I've attached some photos.
> 
> The first part is painting the railing. I'm thinking sanding with a metal wheel, priming and then rolling instead of spraying because of overspray. I would also remove the wire railings. Any thoughts? It looks like this is the first time the railings are being painted since leaving the factory.
> 
> ...


simple as that

Primer.
Paint.
Medium and fine grit sandpaper.
Sanding block.
Or random orbit sander.
Paint brush.
Paint roller.
Cloth.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Sanding those windows down to bare wood is going to be a massive undertaking, but necessary if you want to stain them, so bid appropriately. Unless your talking about a solid stain.. Another option may be to just scuff sand and recoat with a type of spar varnish. Except that it may not look totally uniform without complete removal. The decking appears to be a hardwood, I think Coco's formula of just a coat of Shipnshore or the likes sounds good as for less maintenance in the future. Hard to tell if that siding is just weathered or previously stained..? Going to need some serious brightening..The railings, I would just scuff sand with a block and hit it with a coat of Cornado Rust Scat.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Looks like a beautiful house! What kind of wood are you working with? That will make a difference in product selection.
> 
> Re: Deck/stairs:
> 
> ...


I'm liking the idea of hanging your glasses off the Back of your shirt. Less chance of dropping them in your cut can.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

For the railing, I've found good ole rustoleum has far better longevity and durability than any DTM or single part industrial paint the stores sell. Needs acetone to thin.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

BhamPainter said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the deck looks beautiful the way it is?
> 
> As for the windows, all I can say is stay away from Ben Moore. I love their paint, hate their stains. I am still looking for that a stain to love, and I still haven't found it. PPG Proluxe 1 and 23 (formerly Sikkens Cetol) looks pretty good on windows and doors, but it is a three-coat system, so it takes a second.


BM doesn't really make an exterior grade stain for fine exterior windows like that. Neither does SW or most other manufacturers. I think I would seal them with shipnshore then varnish with sikkens door & window.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback. I think the wood is Cedar. Not 100% positive. I suggested Cabot as well.



Holland said:


> Looks like a beautiful house! What kind of wood are you working with? That will make a difference in product selection.
> 
> Re: Deck/stairs:
> 
> ...


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thank you this is great advice. Much appreciated. There isn't much rust, some, but burning through the factory paint is something i want to avoid.



Holland said:


> Re: metal railings
> 
> I would not use a sanding wheel, as it would be best if you could avoid burning though the factory paint. Raw metal must be primed before painting.
> 
> ...


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thank you for the advice. The husband said, "just stain the weathered areas" and the wife looks at him like he has two heads and says, "they're going to look blotchy."

There's too much weathering on the windows even the doors. IMO it's too risky not to sand them down to bare wood.

As far as the siding, it's definitely not uniform. Some areas have a blueish hue, other areas are dark like creosote dark and other areas have the gray weathered look to it. 



finishesbykevyn said:


> Sanding those windows down to bare wood is going to be a massive undertaking, but necessary if you want to stain them, so bid appropriately. Unless your talking about a solid stain.. Another option may be to just scuff sand and recoat with a type of spar varnish. Except that it may not look totally uniform without complete removal. The decking appears to be a hardwood, I think Coco's formula of just a coat of Shipnshore or the likes sounds good as for less maintenance in the future. Hard to tell if that siding is just weathered or previously stained..? Going to need some serious brightening..The railings, I would just scuff sand with a block and hit it with a coat of Cornado Rust Scat.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback. I have used Sikkens in the past. I like that it comes in multiple shades.



cocomonkeynuts said:


> BM doesn't really make an exterior grade stain for fine exterior windows like that. Neither does SW or most other manufacturers. I think I would seal them with shipnshore then varnish with sikkens door & window.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

becolouring said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I think the wood is Cedar. Not 100% positive. I suggested Cabot as well.


If you can brighten the wood any oil based semi transparent deck stain would be ideal.

If the wood is weathered and does not look good anymore, and no chance yo revive it, there are other oil based decks stain options that contain more "solids", so as to soften the imperfections somewhat.


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## CatJP (Jun 28, 2021)

You are in the right mind set of how to approach the work. Wire wheel will work good for stairs I like to use an oil base on exterior metal handrail, stair skirts. Like Holland, I usually recommend a sim-solid stain on older decks like that.
My question is the the part about "fix the wood rot with Bondo". Will it take the stain? I have used it on metal door's before. I usually use a good exterior wood filler and still have to "Play" with the stain to make it look good.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Personally, I like the way the wood siding looks. But the owners see the three different colors and think it's weathered. If I was to brighten the siding up it would be through sanding...



Holland said:


> If you can brighten the wood any oil based semi transparent deck stain would be ideal.
> 
> If the wood is weathered and does not look good anymore, and no chance yo revive it, there are other oil based decks stain options that contain more "solids", so as to soften the imperfections somewhat.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback.

Thinking about it now, Bondo is probably the wrong way to go. I was thinking wood filler is not as "paintable" as the product says therefore thinking Bondo as an alternative. I would just sand down to bare wood and go straight to stain.



CatJP said:


> You are in the right mind set of how to approach the work. Wire wheel will work good for stairs I like to use an oil base on exterior metal handrail, stair skirts. Like Holland, I usually recommend a sim-solid stain on older decks like that.
> My question is the the part about "fix the wood rot with Bondo". Will it take the stain? I have used it on metal door's before. I usually use a good exterior wood filler and still have to "Play" with the stain to make it look good.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

becolouring said:


> Personally, I like the way the wood siding looks. But the owners see the three different colors and think it's weathered. If I was to brighten the siding up it would be through sanding...


Have you tried using brightener before? If not it might not hurt to try a sample board of that siding and see what happens. If it works it could save you a ton of sanding. Sometimes that old weathered wood has so many nooks and crannies it can be hard to get all the dark spots out without taking it way farther down than necessary. Oxygen bleach is another chemical that might work if the brightener doesn't do the trick. You can buy it in the grocery store as OxiClean, or order some online. Just my two cents, as someone who's sanded too much...

If you get the brightener pre-packaged it will be part oxalic acid and part citric acid, so you don't have to use a neutralizer afterwards. It will most likely fur the wood out a little bit though, so you will have some sanding to do afterwards. .


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Have you tried using brightener before? If not it might not hurt to try a sample board of that siding and see what happens. If it works it could save you a ton of sanding. Sometimes that old weathered wood has so many nooks and crannies it can be hard to get all the dark spots out without taking it way farther down than necessary. Oxygen bleach is another chemical that might work if the brightener doesn't do the trick. You can buy it in the grocery store as OxiClean, or order some online. Just my two cents, as someone who's sanded too much...
> 
> If you get the brightener pre-packaged it will be part oxalic acid and part citric acid, so you don't have to use a neutralizer afterwards. It will most likely fur the wood out a little bit though, so you will have some sanding to do afterwards. .


Can you post a link to OxiClean?

How do you use it? Concentrated? Can you run it through a PW? Any associated risks to plant life or health concerns? Thanks.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Have you tried using brightener before? If not it might not hurt to try a sample board of that siding and see what happens. If it works it could save you a ton of sanding. Sometimes that old weathered wood has so many nooks and crannies it can be hard to get all the dark spots out without taking it way farther down than necessary. Oxygen bleach is another chemical that might work if the brightener doesn't do the trick. You can buy it in the grocery store as OxiClean, or order some online. Just my two cents, as someone who's sanded too much...
> 
> If you get the brightener pre-packaged it will be part oxalic acid and part citric acid, so you don't have to use a neutralizer afterwards. It will most likely fur the wood out a little bit though, so you will have some sanding to do afterwards.


The siding looks like it could be roasted/torrefied lumber where the burn/char layer is eroding/wearing off.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Not going to suggest any process or product - been out of exterior work too long. But I will add that although we are certainly used to seeing it in our profession, it’s still a shame to see people wait so long to do something about the exterior condition of their homes. Guess they just don’t understand that procrastination on exterior maintenance (whether because they are clueless, lazy, or unable to afford it) ends up being more expensive - sometimes way more.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Not going to suggest any process or product - been out of exterior work too long. But I will add that although we are certainly used to seeing it in our profession, it’s still a shame to see people wait so long to do something about the exterior condition of their homes. Guess they just don’t understand that procrastination on exterior maintenance (whether because they are clueless, lazy, or unable to afford it) ends up being more expensive - sometimes way more.


Yeah I cringe whenever I have a HO ask my how long paint lasts' because their last paint lasted 30 years'. I always just assume they mean the siding isn't literally falling off.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

I'm guessing there's no going back to a burn/char look unless it done in a factory setting. I originally thought is was creosote.



Redux said:


> The siding looks like it could be roasted/torrefied lumber where the burn/char layer is eroding/wearing off.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

becolouring said:


> I'm guessing there's no going back to a burn/char look unless it done in a factory setting. I originally thought is was creosote.


We do a lot of that here, then seal it with shipnshore. It seals in all the surface char.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Just an Observation:

Unless you're a painting contractor with extensive experience in prepping and staining on what I would call "Specialty Items", I would be inclined to invoice each item separately. And since the homeowners don't seem to be on the same page with each other, I would also be inclined to produce a sample of what a rolled finish will look like on that hand rail.

As far as products, I tend to lean more towards Benjamin Moore when the job is unique and owners are picky. I also lean heavily on the supplier's product recommendations since I'm no where near expert on many applications. Staining being one of them.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

How do you do that burn/char look outside of a factory setting?

I did a Google search of char wood and came up with interesting results. Seems the sell a Char Oil out of New Zealand, and someone just took a torch to get the char look. And “Shou Sugi Ban” is the term people use.



cocomonkeynuts said:


> We do a lot of that here, then seal it with shipnshore. It seals in all the surface char.


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## becolouring (Mar 30, 2020)

Thank for the advice. I do plan on quoting each project seprately. I think it gives me a better chance of picking up a one or two projects versus having them say no to everything.

I also like your suggestion to show them what the rolled railing looks like. I can spray them but it's not my first choice.



CApainter said:


> Just an Observation:
> 
> Unless you're a painting contractor with extensive experience in prepping and staining on what I would call "Specialty Items", I would be inclined to invoice each item separately. And since the homeowners don't seem to be on the same page with each other, I would also be inclined to produce a sample of what a rolled finish will look like on that hand rail.
> 
> As far as products, I tend to lean more towards Benjamin Moore when the job is unique and owners are picky. I also lean heavily on the supplier's product recommendations since I'm no where near expert on many applications. Staining being one of them.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Can you post a link to OxiClean?
> 
> How do you use it? Concentrated? Can you run it through a PW? Any associated risks to plant life or health concerns? Thanks.


The active chemical is sodium percarbonate, aka oxygen bleach. I buy it in a concentrated powder form online in a product called Cedar wash. I have not tried running it through my pressure washer, I blew the pump out on that thing and since I've replaced it I haven't run anything through there except water. I've been curious about downstreaming but it's not a technique I've ever actually used. If I did more wood restoration I would probably have a better setup, but I only run into it once or twice a season and never on an entire house although we did do all the trim on a large house once.

I just have a helper go ahead with a roller and roll on the product, or maybe in a pump sprayer. Oxygen bleach is actually pretty environmentally friendly, I believe it breaks down into just ash and water. They say even pets aren't harmed by it if they accidentally drink some, although I would never want to test it to find it out 

The oxalic acid in brightener is a bit more harsh.

There's some great info on some pressure washing forums from guys who use these chemicals on a daily basis. Pretty interesting and amazing what you can do if you know how to use the stuff, which I only partially understand.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Can you post a link to OxiClean?
> 
> How do you use it? Concentrated? Can you run it through a PW? Any associated risks to plant life or health concerns? Thanks.








This is the product I use instead of Oxiclean. I've found it doesn't work very well if there is a lot of the previous coating still on there. But if the wood is uncoated or most of the coating is off, it works great.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

fromthenorthwest said:


> This is the product I use instead of Oxiclean. I've found it doesn't work very well if there is a lot of the previous coating still on there. But if the wood is uncoated or most of the coating is off, it works great.


Stuff looks awesome. Although I think I would apply it using a sort of down-streaming devise. That looked painfully slow. 😂 Could probably roll it on quicker with a 20mm sleeve.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Stuff looks awesome. Although I think I would apply it using a sort of down-streaming devise. That looked painfully slow. 😂 Could probably roll it on quicker with a 20mm sleeve.


Spent some time looking for a liquid version- is there one? Anything granulated will clog up the orifices and screens, even downstream.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Spent some time looking for a liquid version- is there one? Anything granulated will clog up the orifices and screens, even downstream.


I would think if you diluted with hot water, it would dissolve the granules. 🤷‍♂️


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I would think if you diluted with hot water, it would dissolve the granules. 🤷‍♂️


I don't risk anything granulated with a PW. 
Rarely have access to hot water on site.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Spent some time looking for a liquid version- is there one? Anything granulated will clog up the orifices and screens, even downstream.


I don't know if there's a liquid version of the sodium percarbonate. I do know that the brightener does have a liquid concentrate version, (I use the Defy brand) and a lot of times it'll give you similar results to the sodium percarb. I still really haven't got it zeroed in on when to use which product, I do a little experimenting every time I come across a wood restoration job. Or even just an old piece of wood. Kind of fun to experiment. What can I say I'm entertained easily.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> I don't risk anything granulated with a PW.
> Rarely have access to hot water on site.


Ya, I've never used that product, but being mostly sodium bicarbonate, I imagine would liquefy quite well. Although I'd be more inclined to use a type of water pump instead of a PW. You could downstream with your PW which would suck up the solution after the pump I believe, although a bit hard to get the ratio correct for application..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, I've never used that product, but being mostly sodium bicarbonate, I imagine would liquefy quite well. Although I'd be more inclined to use a type of water pump instead of a PW. You could downstream with your PW which would suck up the solution after the pump I believe, although a bit hard to get the ratio correct for application..


I have the "awesome" GX390 engine on my pressure washer, with a Triplex plunger pump (downstream injector).

I will only ever use liquid though a PW. There always seems to be a little bit of grit floating at the bottom of the pail, no matter how much you stir, or how hot the water, and the straws draw from the bottom of the bucket. The only time I have ever had clogs in any of my machines is when I used a granular product. There was residue in the screens and clogs at the tips. Have also had clogs in my hand-held pump sprayers from granular products.


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## Vylum (May 12, 2016)

id try and talk my way into doing sample sections of everything to test for time and quality expectations. id tell them theres no way to articulate in language what it will visually look like due to the significant weathering, that way youre not into a nightmare job where you get roasted on budget and they are not happy at the end (avoiding worst case scenario). worst comes to worst they dont like how it looks but then youre not dealing with it when you finish while you simultaneously under bid.


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## ClarksPainting (Jun 9, 2021)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Have you tried using brightener before? If not it might not hurt to try a sample board of that siding and see what happens. If it works it could save you a ton of sanding. Sometimes that old weathered wood has so many nooks and crannies it can be hard to get all the dark spots out without taking it way farther down than necessary. Oxygen bleach is another chemical that might work if the brightener doesn't do the trick. You can buy it in the grocery store as OxiClean, or order some online. Just my two cents, as someone who's sanded too much...
> 
> If you get the brightener pre-packaged it will be part oxalic acid and part citric acid, so you don't have to use a neutralizer afterwards. It will most likely fur the wood out a little bit though, so you will have some sanding to do afterwards. .


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## ClarksPainting (Jun 9, 2021)

ClarksPainting said:


> View attachment 112543
> View attachment 112543
> 
> This is what one of our customers did with OxiClean. I would never tell anyone to run to the grocery store and try this. All we could do was solid stain it afterwards. His wife was so mad at him. We were scheduled for Monday, and he jumped out and tried to help us the prior weekend. When we got done with the solid stain, she finally said that from inside, it looked the same, she just didn't have that wood look outside.


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## RetiredChemE (Mar 30, 2020)

becolouring said:


> Hi all, like your feedback on a job I'm bidding on. I'm interested in process and materials mostly. I've attached some photos.
> 
> The first part is painting the railing. I'm thinking sanding with a metal wheel, priming and then rolling instead of spraying because of overspray. I would also remove the wire railings. Any thoughts? It looks like this is the first time the railings are being painted since leaving the factory.
> 
> ...


It looks like the windows need redone. To much bleached by the sun, mildew and rot. My go-to is to strip with a gel remover, lightly fine sand, use MinWax wood hardener to dry out rot, use an stainable epoxy filler like MinWax wood filler or Abatron LiquidWood+WoodEpox, and then use MinWax prestain, stain and a semi glass varnish. (I’m in the Caribbean so my product choices are limited - others might know and suggest better products) Follow directions with all the intermediate sanding. The trick that needs done with the epoxy fillers is to trim, sculpt, and sand partly through the curing, because sanding after complete hardening is problematic - the surrounding wood sands away and the filler is too hard. Also the MinWax filler sets in less than a minute so use a tablespoon at a time and work fast in applying! Also, stain does not seep into the filler well, and tends to wipe and brush away. My trick is to reapply stain on the filler patch with a cotton swab on a subsequent undercoating of varnish while the varnish is freshly wet. That locks in the stain and allows the artist in you to create a grain look. This method has worked well with mahogany doors and floors. There are pigment additives for the epoxy fillers but I have not tried that (yet).


becolouring said:


> Hi all, like your feedback on a job I'm bidding on. I'm interested in process and materials mostly. I've attached some photos.
> 
> The first part is painting the railing. I'm thinking sanding with a metal wheel, priming and then rolling instead of spraying because of overspray. I would also remove the wire railings. Any thoughts? It looks like this is the first time the railings are being painted since leaving the factory.
> 
> ...


It looks like the windows need redone. To much bleached by the sun, mildew and rot. My go-to is to strip with a gel remover, lightly fine sand, use MinWax wood hardener to dry out rot, use an stainable epoxy filler like MinWax wood filler or Abatron LiquidWood+WoodEpox, and then use MinWax prestain, stain and a semi glass varnish. (I’m in the Caribbean so my product choices are limited - others might know and suggest better products) Follow directions with all the intermediate sanding. The trick that needs done with the epoxy fillers is to trim, sculpt, and sand partly through the curing, because sanding after complete hardening is problematic - the surrounding wood sands away and the filler is too hard. Also the MinWax filler sets in less than a minute so use a tablespoon at a time and work fast in applying! Also, stain does not seep into the filler well, and tends to wipe and brush away. My trick is to reapply stain on the filler patch with a cotton swab on a subsequent undercoating of varnish while the varnish is freshly wet. That locks in the stain and allows the artist in you to create a grain look. This method has worked well with mahogany doors and floors. There are pigment additives for the epoxy fillers but I have not tried that (yet).


Holland said:


> Looks like a beautiful house! What kind of wood are you working with? That will make a difference in product selection.
> 
> Re: Deck/stairs:
> 
> ...





becolouring said:


> Hi all, like your feedback on a job I'm bidding on. I'm interested in process and materials mostly. I've attached some photos.
> 
> The first part is painting the railing. I'm thinking sanding with a metal wheel, priming and then rolling instead of spraying because of overspray. I would also remove the wire railings. Any thoughts? It looks like this is the first time the railings are being painted since leaving the factory.
> 
> ...


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

ClarksPainting said:


> View attachment 112543


What are we looking at here? Looks like some of the white paint from the fan brace got onto the varnished wood.
Did you try acetone or denatured alcohol to clean off the paint residue? Or lightly sanding and revarnishing?

No offense, but I’d be mad too if someone painted over my knotty pine ceiling.


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## adamtiffany36 (7 mo ago)

Looks like a beautiful house!
192.168.100.1 192.168.1​


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