# SW Catalyzed Epoxy - Question



## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Hey all. Been using their WB Pre-Cat version, which isn't necessarily all that bad. 

Recently we used a high end 2k poly and got spoiled. The stuff just doesn't scratch and you have to really dig into it and try hard to ding/nick it. 

Went back to the WB pre-cat, tried scratching and I could see scratch marks on it. Paint didn't come off or anything, but I could see where my fingernail had been, granted at an angle, but still visible. With the 2k poly, I couldn't even see them...probably because they weren't there.

Anyway.....I'm not sure if the enamels would be a better choice for hardness. I've been under the assumption the epoxies are more durable, but the scratch test with the pre-cat was at first good...but then after seeing the results of a 2k poly, I'm a bit disappointed.


So I'm looking for some good hard trim and door paint. Chem resistance etc., isn't really that important right now. Looking for more of an industrial coating, I've tried PC, Solo, WB Alkyd, etc. etc. All have pros/cons.


*So I'm thinking about experimenting with the WB Catalyzed (2 component) version. *
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/pa...cts/pro-industrial-waterborne-catalyzed-epoxy

*Anyone ever use it or have any feedback on it?*


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## kmp (Jan 30, 2011)

Epoxy has its place but I really hate the stuff and only use the two part stuff on floors. I have used the pre cat on lots of walls but not much on trim and had good luck with it.


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Going two component will always bite you in the arse for residential. What customer wants to add a hardener to the paint if touch up is needed, and those products only last so long in the can without the hardener. Try the 0voc acrylic in the PI line. It might just be called PI acrylic now. It's fantastic for a one component enamel.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Touch-ups aside. The goal was to find a very strong, mar-resistant/scuff/scratch resistant coating. 

Of course anything applied with force will damage it, but I'm looking for a coating that is beyond "the norm". 

On a side note, funny I mention durability. NASA dropped off some unmarked stuff at the store today and told the managers to match the color in another product. Guy dried out a sample he did with his finger...that stuff was TOUGH. Scratched it HARD and didn't even mark it up. And it dried extremely fast. 

Only thing I can think of it was some sort of alkyd acrylic as it did say flammable, but with water clean-up. Go figure. <shrugs>

I think I might have them do some draw downs to see how the products perform. Emerald Enamel is another option, just don't know about durability.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I'd be concerned that 2 component epoxies or other ultra hard products would have cracking issues at caulked joints. This is common with oil based trim products and I remember someone posting some pics of a pigmented lacquer trim pack where the caulked joints around windows had huge cracks in the finish.

Like you, I'd also like to find a more durable alternative to products such as Advance or Cabinet Coat.

It seems like Waterborne lacquer's such as SW Ken Aqua+ might be a good option, but I haven't had a chance to test any yet.




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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

PNW Painter said:


> Like you, I'd also like to find a more durable alternative to products such as Advance or Cabinet Coat.
> 
> It seems like Waterborne lacquer's such as SW Ken Aqua+ might be a good option, but I haven't had a chance to test any yet.


Yah I agree, places where movement occurs could have issues. I think it also depends on the degree of movement also. Only one way to really find out. I would assume most paint companies would probably engineer some factors in such as stress and movement, they do have mandrel tests that they do.

Anyway, there are a number of reasons why. For example, cabinets. The pigmented cabinet finishes is up dramatically nation wide (here not so much), but elsewhere yes. I've used several things and haven't really found a Goldilocks paint product yet. Plus, when it comes to commercial bidding or just general knowledge it's good to have first hand experience understanding what coatings can be used where and their functions/limitations. 

Here's a question/example to put out there: My ProClassic price is around the same as my price for Pre-Cat WB Epoxy (Pro Industrial). So which one would most painters use? PC levels better, but isn't as durable. PC depending on prep will probably feel better to the touch than Pre-Cat. 

Pros and Cons, as with all things.

So if I can find a good product, that may not be all that much difference in price, yet performs at a much higher level...might be worth it.

Edit:
I've used the Kem Aqua Lacquer and Kem Aqua+ products. Good stuff, never tried their pigmented products as they usually are custom order items. I did see they have a Kem Aqua Enamel, but it looks like it comes in standard colors, not sure about matching or any color.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

I just wish I had time to test different products right now. I'd really like to try SW Kem Aqua+ and the comparable Lenmar products. 

I also like your thinking that there may be products marketed towards industrial painters that would work well for trim packs or cabinets. 


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I have a long test stick i have been applying different products too trying to find the same thing. Cabinet coat mars WAY easily, but other than that its bulletproof, looks awesome, covers great and sticks like superglue. Old formula breakthrough is hard as a rock. New formula breakthough is scratching on me, after two weeks. Emerald WB urethane seems to be holding up second best, but its really pricey. PPG just gave me a gal of PittGlaze WB epoxy. Im gonna try that next. My stick is at PPG . I dropped it off to have them put a sample of their WB alkyd, to see how that is. Kelly Moore has a waterborne Urethane too. I lost the sample of it before I could test it though, but look into it. It has some weird name, and its pretty pricey too, but its for industrial use


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

That's all good to know WoodCo. I lean heavy on Sherwin because they are the local place. We don't have PPG around here and Ben Moore is good, but I'd have to buy it from the drywall place (support for it is low). 

Dun Edwards is not bad, but I've seen a few of their paints operate sub-par and in some cases we've been called to fix some real big issues from previous painters, using their products (bad chalking etc.). Plus they bash the competition pretty badly and their paints aren't the cat's meow to begin with, a bit misleading in my opinion. If you intend to bash on the competition, then be able to back it up, which they can't. 


I think I'll do some draw downs of different stuff here shortly to decide on things. 

I've spent thousands on experimenting and testing things out (in the field). The lab tests are good, but under real world conditions is basically where it's at, after all we have to apply it out here not in the lab.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I mentioned Kelly Moore. Do you have those?


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> I mentioned Kelly Moore. Do you have those?


I doubt it. Who sells that? Hardware store?


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Miller Paint owns Kelly Moore and also stocks their products. 


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Like I was mentioning above, Kelly Moore has a waterborne urethane that I havent done a real test with. 

Kelly Moore used to be really good. Their contractor grades outperformed everyone elses. Not a huge product selection though. They were the go to paint store in reno, and theres a few of their stores here in Austin, too, but I dont use them too much anymore. I mainly use them to buy Durapoxy. I use that a lot on cabinets, cuz I can safely flip the doors quickly. Its not exactly a pre-cat epoxy, but it's very durable for a normal latex.

Oh, and durapoxy can be applied directly over oil-base with proper sanding and cleaning. Its the only normal latex I know of that sticks to oil. So, its my go to, when I need to switch the trim in a house from oil to latex.

http://kellymoore.com/products/interior-paint/dura-poxy


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Oh, and durapoxy can be applied directly over oil-base with proper sanding and cleaning. Its the only normal latex I know of that sticks to oil. So, its my go to, when I need to switch the trim in a house from oil to latex.
> 
> http://kellymoore.com/products/interior-paint/dura-poxy


SW Pre-Cat will also stick to oil. I've used it before on oil, just sand good, clean it, and put it on. Done. 

Even though it's not super scratch resistant, the pre-cat is one tough cookie. After a full cure, I've taken 60 grit sand paper on the orbital and wasn't able to hardly burn through the coating. It was taking a lot of time to do a small section. So that proved it to me on how strong it is.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Update. 

Tried the 2 part catalyzed. Seems to be good stuff, however, I don't think it's going to have the scratch resistance I had hoped it would have. 

Applied 1 coat yesterday, granted full cure is 14 days, but within the first day or two of drying you should get an indication of what it might perform like. 

It does appear to have a little better scratch resistance on the 2nd day, 3rd day will for sure let me know more. 

One note, it does get thicker as it sweats in. This stuff does have a 30 min sweat in time. Levels o.k., but has great hide. Seems to be self sealing as well, which is nice.

Edit:
Scratches done with my finger nail, across the grain.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

I was in Lowes yesterday and walked through the cabinet section. For chits and giggles I lightly took my nail across a factory painted cabinet and it did the same thing. 

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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I was in Lowes yesterday and walked through the cabinet section. For chits and giggles I lightly took my nail across a factory painted cabinet and it did the same thing.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Yah makes you wonder how it'll hold up over time. Especially with couples that have kids or cook a lot with pots/pans coming in and out, occasionally hitting things. 

Factory finishes are usually pretty stout stuff, but it also depends on company/price point, etc.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Since I have the opportunity to frequently revisit areas I've painted with various materials, I can assess a product's performance. And I have to say, I was extremely pleased today when I tried a fingernail test on a couple of doors I painted with semi gloss and gloss BM Advance. Both door surfaces had cured very hard. More resembling a two component polyurethane than an oil based enamel coating. But it did take a while to cure to that point. like over a year it seems.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

That's the challenge I have with Advance. It takes foreverrrrrr to cure, but the finished product looks awesome.


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## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

I've used BM Advance few times to spray cabinets and really liked it, levels out nice and it's very durable finish. I'm old school when it comes to painting trim and still using General Paint HP 2000 semi which can be bought at our local SW store 
( for now anyways ) and never had any problems with it, used it for both commercial and residential projects.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Have you tried the SW Pro Industrial Waterborne Urethane? People on here are saying its the same formula as the Emerald urethane for much less money.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Have you tried the SW Pro Industrial Waterborne Urethane? People on here are saying its the same formula as the Emerald urethane for much less money.


I'd bet the farm that it's exactly the same product. 

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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'd bet the farm that it's exactly the same product.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


That's what I thought, but on reviewing it the WB alkyd urethane enamel states that it's an acrylic-alkyd. 

Whereas the Emerald Urethane doesn't mention alkyd of alkyd modified at all, but says it's an acrylic.

So it actually might be a different setup.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

My rep said it was the same product, so that's all the info I have on it anyway...


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> My rep said it was the same product, so that's all the info I have on it anyway...


Note quite the same. I actually compared the data sheets just now. Looks like they might be similar with the Emerald having a formula tweak. 

My previous comment isn't correct. I read one of the foot notes and it says the vehicle type for emerald enamel is a modified alkyd.

However...the recommended re-coat times are way different. Emerald: 4 hrs. WB Alkyd Enamel: 18 hours. 

Just some general info.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

I'm betting the recoat was modified to suit the diyers, a diyer isn't gonna wait ....is anything else different about it? I seriously don't know, I haven't explored either product.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> I'm betting the recoat was modified to suit the diyers, a diyer isn't gonna wait ....is anything else different about it? I seriously don't know, I haven't explored either product.


 A few things are different. The Emerald pds doesn't give too much more info than the basics, so it's hard to compare flexibility, etc. 

A few difference:


Recoat time. Emerald: 4 hrs. Wb Alkyd Urethane: 18 hrs.
Emerald has addition of deep base. Extra White, Deep, Ultra. Wb Alkyd only has Extra White and Extra Deep.
Emerald has addition of hi-hide white base. For lighter colors to hide better in 1 coat. WB Alkyd doesn't have that base either.


Volume Solids. Emerald: 34%. WB Alkyd: 58%
Temperature Application: Emerald: 50 degrees Wb Alkyd: 40 degrees.


Those are just a few that popped out when I looked at the pds of the two.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Hey mods! Can we get an "Ask Sherwin Williams!" emoji for Christmas this year? Maybe an SW cover the earth logo emoji? Because it seems to me we get a lot of SW product use questions on Painttalk that SW themselves should be able to answer. At least if they are the "product experts" they claim to be.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

18 hour recoat time on a WB alkyd??? I suppose advance is 16, so whatever. 

I know that inslx cabinet coat which is a WB alkyd urethane as well, but it states a 6 hour recoat time. When I applied it, I only waited an hour, though.


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

woodcoyote said:


> A few things are different. The Emerald pds doesn't give too much more info than the basics, so it's hard to compare flexibility, etc.
> 
> A few difference:
> 
> ...


Ty! Now that I'm thinking about it I think the sheen availability is different...i think emerald has a couple more than PI if I remember right?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'd bet the farm that it's exactly the same product.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk


Its not, different formulas, different products, totally different sheens. Look at the semi side by side and the emerald looks like an eggshell.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Well I guess I stand corrected! 

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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Me too!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

How does the PI look compared to the emerald? laydown wise, I mean,.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

I was betting on it being same formula too but some side by side comparisons proved me wrong. Emerald WBAU seems to cover better than Pro Industrial WBAU and hardens much faster. Hardness at full cure well not sure on that. Can't imagine that Emerald will be as hard as PI gets.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Which is better? Big Mac or Quarter Pounder? Answer? IN AND OUT BURGER! (same kind of thing in my mind)


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## kentdalimp (Aug 15, 2013)

I used the PI urethane on a job back in January. Takes 7 days to cure, but dried to the touch within hours in the humidity of Alabama. Runs about like Proclassic if you put it on too heavy. 

Went back to the job for phase 2 in July, and the urethane has held up excellent. No scratches, etc. Only thing is we painted over a portion unknowingly. Sanded, Kilz (Oil), PI Acrylic. And if you looked at it wrong, even the kilz oil would come off. So it's great for durability, but it will be a nightmare to coat over in the future if you don't use a Urethane.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Good to hear some more feedback on the Urethane. 

Just got done looking at a NC job we sprayed about a month or two back with some PI pre-cat. I opted out of the catalyzed for this particular job, except I did do a few doors/trim in the catalyzed to see how they will hold up.

My findings:
PI pre-cat epoxy, strong, harder to mar and definately won't be easy to sand off if you can. Touches up not all that well. Needs full cure to put tape on it, otherwise tape will rip it off or affect bonding. 

Catalyzed - Gets hard pretty fast. Has a longer total cure time, surprisingly, but initial dry is pretty good. Not sure about touch-up just yet, hasn't been long enough. Harder to do touch-up because it has a set potlife, so need to touch-up with a separate mix more than likely. 

Both easy clean-up. Just need to tweak the dry times to aid in self leveling. Overall not bad products.


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## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

lilpaintchic said:


> Ty! Now that I'm thinking about it I think the sheen availability is different...i think emerald has a couple more than PI if I remember right?


My bad on this. I goofed real bad on the data sheet. I miss-read the stupid title. Guess when you go to quick between the two you insert the word "waterborne" into the pro industrial title and then spew out the wrong data.


*Here's my other post, in which I stand corrected:*
http://www.painttalk.com/f2/new-emerald-urethane-enamel-74601/index2/#post1503858



woodcoyote said:


> Okay so long story short, the only difference between Enamel and Pro Industrial Waterbased Urethane Enamel, are the color availability and the fact that Emerald has a hi-hide white base.
> 
> Everything else will more than likely be the same.
> 
> ...


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## Petrostar2611 (Jan 9, 2020)

Has anyone had issues with Sherwin William's PreCat epoxy not bonding to oil based satin after sanding? We had the paint peeling off in sheets from the doors and trim. SW rep says the Precat epoxy has excellent bonding and does not need a primer. So contractor tried again with more sanding and we are getting peeling again, but tobacco much smaller degree. House is 1930s construction and entire paint history is not known.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Woodco said:


> Have you tried the SW Pro Industrial Waterborne Urethane? People on here are saying its the same formula as the Emerald urethane for much less money.


Just realized this thread is as old as chease. Disregard.


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