# Red Cedar Stain Problems



## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I recently took over a project of 80+ existing homes from 1-5 years old with another 60 to build and all are red cedar shingles. The first two builders went under and never had a official "spec" for the exteriors. There have been numerous painting contracters dragged thru there in the past with no direction. For the green trim they were told to just do a "hunter green", we have nailed down Aura Essex Green for the trim now. For the decks they might of used Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil Mahogany Flame and the red cedar siding the Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil Honey Teak or Cabot's Clear Solutions 9200. One painter even used a semi solid with pink tone and completely ruined two houses. 

The property maint company still have the painter from last year under contract to complete the 5 year anual re-stain of 6 more homes. They are assuming the Cabot's Honey Teak was the product but for some reason they have decided to use a California product to throw another monkey wrench into the works. Last year this painter did 40+ decks with the Cabot's AT Mahogany Flame only to have drying issues ...sometimes up to two weeks. They got no support from Cabot's, thus changing products. 

My delema:

My company is doing the NC homes in three different phases of the project with several color issues all around each phase in it's own. We have pretty much decided to use Sikkens SRD on the mahogany decks. Case closed. I was trying to keep things simple by using the same product for the siding and even used the Sikken SRD Oak to add a brown tone to help match the older existing homes but every single product I try makes the red cedar look orange. Mostly the lighter shingles look real orange in color. Clear Solutions (two colors), Sikkens (two colors), Timber Oil Honey Teak, BM Natural stain, Water ....all look orange. My builder understands that we will never get a consistency throughout the development with so many varying colors and ages of the cedar. My issue is coming "close" to what these homes look like with two coats of a natural stain on them. 

My head has been spinning over this one and I have never had issues with red cedar before. These shingles have been up for 30-60 days and have no water stains or discoloration. My main questions are how long will it take for the "orangeness" to darken and with out getting into any semi's how can I get the shingles to appear light, clearer, not orange and not darker? 

Right now I am leaning toward Cabot's Clear Solutions 9200 because it is the closest thing to what is already up but understand that it is not the best product for longevity with practically no UV protection. This is why we were leaning toward Sikkens SRD Natural but the color is too much. 

Thanks....


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I should also add that my BM store sales rep that was a 10 year Cabot's rep is baffled as well.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

Most stains end up looking yellow/orange on cedar if the stain contains yellow trans oxide pigments.

Why not go with a stain with brown pigments, but bleach the shakes beforehand. So the resultant isn't too dark - yet not yellowy in appearance.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

plainpainter said:


> Most stains end up looking yellow/orange on cedar if the stain contains yellow trans oxide pigments.
> 
> Why not go with a stain with brown pigments, but bleach the shakes beforehand. So the resultant isn't too dark - yet not yellowy in appearance.


I have used a stain with a slight brown pigment with much of the same results. The darker shingles look great. It is the light shingles that look orange no matter what I use.


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## Msargent (Jan 16, 2009)

I was at local lumber yard recently and was checking into a new product by penafin or have you looked into timber Uv coatings its in northwest and winchester uses it on all his cedar and nicer decks and siding. My problem when they sent me there free samples they were small . But you might be able to work a deal being that you might use so much maybe a free quart in what ever color. Decks covered Neps? srd is a great product but if snow sits they might peel, and secondly after 10 coats you must stripp and reapply I believe. Stripping 10 coats might be time and huge expense.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

Update. We went with the original product. Cabot's Australian Timber Oil Honey Teak.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Love that style of home! Looks great!:thumbsup:
Thanks for the update.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Looks pretty good NEPS :thumbup:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

I missed this entire thread. Looks good Chris.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I must of been in detention, cause I missed it too
Nice gig NEPs


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## RPS (May 13, 2010)

Is semi solid too much? Seems like the clears, toners would fade to fast.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

RPS said:


> Is semi solid too much? Seems like the clears, toners would fade to fast.


You have something against repeat work?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

plainpainter said:


> You have something against repeat work?


I got agree with Daniel on this. I think exterior paints are lasting to long.


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## y.painting (Jul 19, 2009)

Nice nice! Did you climb a tree to take that third one?


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

What I love about these pictures are the White Pine trees in the background, so characteristically New England.


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## Rick the painter (Mar 30, 2009)

Nice Neps the green looks great with the Cabots.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Neps, I bet this place looks great when the landscaping is complete.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Neps, I bet this place looks great when the landscaping is complete.


Yes they do. No skimping on this one. 

We begin the interior next week.


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## mmack3090 (Jul 20, 2010)

*Orange*

I have been in charge of finding a clear oil based product . I had done the house previously with cabot 3000 but can't get it now. I just used Sikkens natural and the owner is unhappy need to redo it so it looks natural . any suggestions I only did one coat . How to get it off and what to use for a clear new shinglw look. I think the house with the green trim looks great but still looks srange? Thanks for your help. M


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

I think that the shakes will even out in color once the sun bakes them for a bit. The stain looks really good man. 
Good gig for you guys


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

ATO on cedar... ouch. Typically turns black within a year. 

I hope not, the project looks fantastic.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

PressurePros said:


> ATO on cedar... ouch. Typically turns black within a year.
> 
> I hope not, the project looks fantastic.


There are 5 year old houses at this site that have not turned black. 

It was not my first choice but I'm mot an architect.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> There are 5 year old houses at this site that have not turned black.
> 
> It was not my first choice but I'm mot an architect.


5 years ago the formula was different. I am almost certain Cabot strongly recommends against using the ATO on cedar. Their techs will give you a different answer every day. A friend of mine in the deck industry is eating $100,000 in labor over the other junk product they make, SPF.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

I've pleaded my case for a change in product Ken but the guy with the stamp called for ATO. It is the builders liability and warranty, not mine. The maintenance company coats these things every three years.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

SPF was one of the worst ideas ever, totally appealing to what people wish was possible.

Ato has been marketed pretty slick but I think it doesn't live up to the hype.
I've seen it fail but not by turning black. I've seen it flake and fail on decks but haven't seen it's performance on siding much. Sometimes we do have to apply what is specified even when the specifier doesn't know much.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

NEPS.US said:


> I've pleaded my case for a change in product Ken but the guy with the stamp called for ATO. It is the builders liability and warranty, not mine. The maintenance company coats these things every three years.


I totally understand that you had no choice. My chagrin is more with the Cabot's company. I have gone head to head with them and was listed in a lawsuit by a homeowner that insisted on using the SPF. Cabot's stance was that I didn't prep right. Luckily at the time i was in business long enough to not trust any acrylic and had the homeowner sign off. Cabot's tried to throw me under the bus for their crap product by saying I didn't sand the deck. I asked where in their literature or on the can it said sanding was mandatory and was subsequently dropped from the case.

I did a monster cedar deck in ATO four years ago and everywhere the sun hit it, it turned dark, almost black. More back and forth and blaming and Cabot's offered me product replacement. I ate a $3500 restrip and stain and lost the confidence of the customer. Cabot's finally admitted their ATO had terrible results in the lab on cedar.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

I did a deck strip last fall for a lady in Newburyport, home of Cabot's. The two guys that did her deck were workers at Cabot's and 'moonlighted' as a deck staining company using Cabot's product. They stained her pressure treated deck with the SPF - and did a 'maintenance' coat right over it a year later because it was peeling badly. It was utter garbage. Perhaps the worst strip I've ever experienced. Man was she pissed at those guys - she told me they since have gone bellyup and one of them now works at the laundromat. LOL. I drove by Cabot's, and thought about dumping a used can of A.C. on their front walk, with a note, this is what REAL stain is suppose to be like.


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## VanDamme (Feb 13, 2010)

NEPS.US said:


> I've pleaded my case for a change in product Ken but the guy with the stamp called for ATO. It is the builders liability and warranty, not mine. The maintenance company coats these things every three years.


I've seen that stuff flying out of the paint store this Summer


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