# Hepa Vac for RRP



## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Looking for a Hepa Vac to fit the RRP lead rules. It's important to me that it be a smaller tank, Need to get everything in my truck. I have loved my Rigid Hang up vac ( Although I don't hang it up..) for that reason and plenty of power in a small 4 g tank .
This one looks good, any comments?..

http://allprofein.com/index.php/fei...urbo-wet-dry-vacuum-new-with-hepa-filter.html
http://www.painttalk.com/Fien 9-20-24


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2008)

I don't own one yet but over the boards that I read they all is come out on the top side of the list of vac to own.


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## Roadog (Apr 18, 2007)

Cant open your link, but looks like it goes to Fein. I have one and wouldnt own anything else. I also like the fact that on mine, you can plug say your sander in it and hook it up to the hose and the vac turns on when the sander turns on. Quieter than most too. Well worth the money.


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## BrushJockey (Mar 15, 2009)

Fein 6 gal, same motor as the 16 gal. And has the remote start too.


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## jordanski (Feb 5, 2009)

*3 best brands*

Dustless Technologies, Fein, or Pullman Holt are all awesome and conform to the new rules and all have tons of adapters and hose options. all 99.97 at .3 microns for the main filter.

I'm a bit of a layman expert, i did a ton of research last year and ended up buying a dustless technologies for a larger vac, and got the pullman holt for the medium sized vac... both are exceptional...

jordan

ps. I wouldn't buy the ridgid for any price, get pro quality gear...


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## summertime14 (May 4, 2009)

What about the festool dust extractors. Do they qualify for use in lead dust cleanup?


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

What makes a vac a hepa vac? checked out the OP site and they have the same vac for 299 with out the hepa filter. Is it just the filter that converts your vac to hepa? if so several filters on ebay that might fit our existing vacs for around 35 bucks. 

Sure would like to go through this whole process saving as much as I can.

Pat


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## SWGuy (Jun 26, 2009)

PatsPainting said:


> What makes a vac a hepa vac? checked out the OP site and they have the same vac for 299 with out the hepa filter. Is it just the filter that converts your vac to hepa? if so several filters on ebay that might fit our existing vacs for around 35 bucks.
> 
> Sure would like to go through this whole process saving as much as I can.
> 
> Pat


You can't just put a "hepa" filter on a regular vac. It needs to be a certified HEPA vac. Most that are out there are around $400-$600.


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## clammer (Feb 13, 2009)

www.dustlesstechnologies.com 
The 16 gallon is a great hepa vac.I have had it for sevreal years and it was worth every penny i spent on it around $400 You can buy the beater bar attachment for carpets.Keep in mind most other hepa vacs are only 6 gallons this one is 16


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## Slingah (Sep 24, 2007)

and no more banging the filter out on the H/O's tree in the backyard turning the trunk all white....:no:


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## PatsPainting (Mar 4, 2010)

Thanks SWGuy. Figured it was not that simple.

Could not find anything where it says it has to be certified. Found this quote from here



> EPA defines a *HEPA vacuum* at 40 CFR 745.83_. _
> _"HEPA vacuum _means a vacuum cleaner which has been *designed* with a high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter as the last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency. The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it." ​  The requirement that all air drawn into the machine is goes through the air filter with no leakage is a tough standard. It gets at the heart of a problem with many vacuums labeled as "HEPA." Putting a HEPA filter in a vacuum does little good if the air bypasses the filter. Over the years, studies indicate that most vacuums would not meet this standard.
> Unfortunately, there is no approved method to test HEPA vacuums to determine whether they meet EPA's definition. Without an approved method, a Certified Renovator has no way of knowing whether the vacuum they are using meets the definition or not.


Interesting last line there.

Pat


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

In the interest of safety, I would like to share the following.

There are three different levels of filters, all of which are sold as "HEPA": 

1) Cheap consumer grade HEPA filters (like Gore Cleanstream): these are not individually tested to meet HEPA specs, and the media easily abrades during use (if not protected by additional filtration stages). Also, they do not seal adequately, especially with the loose end cap used in shop vac style vacs.
Even though they are advertised to filter 99.7% down to 0.3 microns, implying they are HEPA, the manufacturers do not reveal test results on larger particle sizes. The filters come with a warning not to vacuum hazardous materials.

2) Higher quality "HEPA" filters for woodworking vacuums. Both Fein and Festool sell HEPA cartridge filters, but they are not individually DOP tested, and no technical details about the media or its filtration are provided. Technically these are not HEPA filters. They might meet European specs for fine filtration, but these specs cover a range of filtration below and above HEPA. The nice thing about these vacs is their speed control, auto-on, good construction, and good capacity.

3) True HEPA filters which are individually DOP tested. The HEPA spec 
originates in the filtering of radioactive materials, and it originally specified
the actual HEPA media, which is a type of fiberglass mat. The spec also
requires individual DOP testing, which gives the max flow rate (CFM) and corresponding back-pressure (inches water) with that flow rate, while
still meeting the 99.97% filtration at 0.3 microns. The spec requires
less than 5 ft/min air velocity through the media surface, and requires 
resistance to rough handling, with specified construction and materials.
The mounting gasket must be 1/4" x 3/4" synthetic closed cell rubber, etc.
(google DOE std-3020). See http://www.c-vac.com for filters.

The vacs that meet #3 include brands such as Nilfisk-Advance, Hako-Minuteman, Pullman-Holt, Euroclean, Nikro, and others. The HEPA filters are typically over $150. Some of the vacs can be had for $300, and 
they are typically very quiet and rugged, with better performance than 
those in #2. Some have tool sockets, but most don't. Most don't have
speed controls. If using with a sander, make sure it has a bypass motor (cooling and waste air are separate). You can use a cheap router speed control on the vac and an accessory auto-on switch with a sander. Most 
have multiple filtration stages: bag, paper filter cover, foam pre-filter, then
HEPA filter, for example. The bag and paper filter cover save the expensive HEPA filter.

It is very dangerous to vacuum lead paint dust from a sander with 
inadequate filtration -- the vacuum acts like a lead dust pump, filling 
the air with fine particles. Also, most paints contain silicates, which
should also be HEPA filtered. 

Given that true HEPA is a well-established spec, I think the EPA should
have been more diligent in writing RRP rules to certify vacuums.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I like my Nikro unit. Not too big but does the job. Had it for about 4 years and no issues.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

RH said:


> I like my Nikro unit. Not too big but does the job. Had it for about 4 years and no issues.


What kind of Zinsser all prime is that?

Pardon any spelling errors.
Sent from Gabe's IPhone using Paint Talk


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

more_prep said:


> 2) Higher quality "HEPA" filters for woodworking vacuums. Both Fein and Festool sell HEPA cartridge filters, but they are not individually DOP tested, and no technical details about the media or its filtration are provided. Technically these are not HEPA filters. They might meet European specs for fine filtration, but these specs cover a range of filtration below and above HEPA. The nice thing about these vacs is their speed control, auto-on, good construction, and good capacity.
> 
> Given that true HEPA is a well-established spec, I think the EPA should
> have been more diligent in writing RRP rules to certify vacuums.


Just in the interest of accuracy, one of the manufacturers referenced above had their current line of vacuums independently tested and approved as full unit HEPA vacs (not just the filter, but the seals and all). 

More info available here. 

Link also includes HEPA relevance to EPA ambiguities.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

vermontpainter said:


> Just in the interest of accuracy, one of the manufacturers referenced above had their current line of vacuums independently tested and approved as full unit HEPA vacs (not just the filter, but the seals and all).
> 
> More info available here.
> 
> Link also includes HEPA relevance to EPA ambiguities.


Thanks for pointing us to that -- it's exactly what I was getting at.

I love Festool and Fein both, and have lots of their tools, but I wouldn't
vacuum asbestos or lead with either. They are great vacs in nearly
all respects, but the filters are not DOP tested or certified true HEPA.

The Festool vacs are tested to the following standard:

http://www.iest.org/RecommendedPractices/IESTRPCC001/tabid/9632/Default.aspx

Wish I had access to this spec. 

Festool seems to have created a trade label "Full Unit HEPA", which I
don't think carries any meaning other than perhaps meeting the IEST
spec above. It is not an EPA labeling, as far as I know.

This is a standard for leakage, but does it also enforce true HEPA filtration
standards (which themselves specify no leakage)? I don't see
any individual DOP testing of Fein or Festool filters, and no specs on their
filtration. For one thing, they do not have the enclosing metal cage that is
required by the true HEPA specs (#3). In essence, they *might* be good
enough, but they do not meet true HEPA specs. Also, the Fein and FESTOOL
vacs do not use multiple stage filtration (only two-stage: bag and filter).
To me that is not adequate to protect the HEPA filter during extended use.
I've seen GORE filters wear through due to particles swirling around them
in the vac, abrading them like a sandblaster.

Also, the so-called HEPA filters do not have anywhere near the surface 
area that the true HEPA filters have. That could result in air speeds 
through the filter surface that exceed HEPA specs.

For a good discussion of the HEPA spec and the European S-Class SPEC,
as well as DOP Testing, see 

http://c-vac.com/testing.html

If you compare a true HEPA filter with any filter marketed as HEPA,
the difference is obvious. The true HEPA is built very sturdily and has
a much larger surface area, together with a bolt-on flange with a thick
rubber gasket. Most are metal construction, and the media is well-protected.

I don't work for any of these companies or have any association with them.
All of this might seem like scare tactics aimed toward increased profit, but 
to me it's worth at least using vacuums and filters that don't pass toxic
particles. Environmental services companies that remove asbestos 
always use high quality vacuums with true HEPA filters. 

Many of the true HEPA filters are even better -- they meet ULPA specs (Ultra
Low Penetration Air), which is 99.999% at 0.1 - 0.2 microns. Most of the
Minuteman filters meet this spec. They are tested according to IEST-RP-CC007.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

RH said:


> I like my Nikro unit. Not too big but does the job. Had it for about 4 years and no issues.


Looks like a quality true HEPA vac. Is it loud? How is the suction?


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

PatsPainting said:


> What makes a vac a hepa vac? checked out the OP site and they have the same vac for 299 with out the hepa filter. Is it just the filter that converts your vac to hepa? if so several filters on ebay that might fit our existing vacs for around 35 bucks.
> 
> Sure would like to go through this whole process saving as much as I can.
> 
> Pat


Isn't the biggest difference, a HEPA does not exhause the air out like a regular shop-vac?


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

more_prep said:


> Thanks for pointing us to that -- it's exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> I love Festool and Fein both, and have lots of their tools, but I wouldn't
> vacuum asbestos or lead with either. They are great vacs in nearly
> ...


If I owned a FESTOOL vac, I would be very disappointed after reading this. 

Thanks for the info and the details in your post.

....


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks -- not intending to disappoint, but I want to motivate manufacturers to
move away from trade descriptions and start complying with real specs.
Maybe the Festool filters are good enough -- but how do we know?
Festool is using a real spec for testing, but I don't know how it relates to true HEPA. 

Anyway, I really love Festool sanders (RO150ES, DTS400, LS130).
Their dust collection is excellent, and their hard pads give a nice flat surface.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

more_prep said:


> Thanks -- not intending to disappoint, but I want to motivate manufacturers to
> move away from trade descriptions and start complying with real specs.
> Maybe the Festool filters are good enough -- but how do we know?
> Festool is using a real spec for testing, but I don't know how it relates to true HEPA.
> ...


I don't think you are, and I am positive that Festtool make great tools by the reviews I have read. But for as much money as their vacs are it should be a true HEPA. IMO 

....


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Not to mention the many contractors that think they are compliant, I thought they were certified for hepa, guess you should read the fine print. To me that's very naughty for festool

....


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ReNt A PaInTeR said:


> What kind of Zinsser all prime is that?
> 
> Pardon any spelling errors.
> Sent from Gabe's IPhone using Paint Talk


Water based. 



more_prep said:


> Looks like a quality true HEPA vac. Is it loud? How is the suction?


I originally posted a question similar to yours when I was looking to get a true HEPA vac for RRP work. Someone else here on PT said that Nikro units were all they used. So I researched them, liked what I saw, and got one. Been very satisfied with it. It's not too loud - about what you'd expect. Suction is fine. It's a two gallon size - I wanted something I could carry up a ladder and use if needed and it fits nicely in my rig. Price is $325 which is pretty close to what I paid for mine. They are American made which is a plus.

link: http://www.nikro.com/hepa-lead-vacuums-epa-rrp-compliance-products/hepa-filtered-lead-vacuums.aspx


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RH said:


> I originally posted a question similar to yours when I was looking to get a true HEPA vac for RRP work. Someone else here on PT said that Nikro units were all they used. So I researched them, liked what I saw, and got one. Been very satisfied with it. It's not too loud - about what you'd expect. Suction is fine. It's a two gallon size - I wanted something I could carry up a ladder and use if needed and it fits nicely in my rig. Price is $325 which is pretty close to what I paid for mine. They are American made which is a plus.
> 
> link: http://www.nikro.com/hepa-lead-vacuums-epa-rrp-compliance-products/hepa-filtered-lead-vacuums.aspx


Nikro and Nilfisk are both suppose to be at the top of the food change.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Water based.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RH, how much are the replacement HEPA filter and how long do they last? We've got a Minuteman ULPA and the filter is about $150. 

On the other hand, there are three layers of filtration before that. The result is that we haven't had to replace that filter yet, and I have to track down the paperwork to see how many years it's been. At least ten.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> RH, how much are the replacement HEPA filter and how long do they last? We've got a Minuteman ULPA and the filter is about $150.
> 
> On the other hand, there are three layers of filtration before that. The result is that we haven't had to replace that filter yet, and I have to track down the paperwork to see how many years it's been. At least ten.


They run about the same. Mine also has a four filter system so I haven't had to replace it yet. Have no idea how long they will last - imagine it depends on how much it's used. I use mine for pretty much everything.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Where in the fine print does it say Festool isn't true Hepa or RRP compliant? Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Damon T said:


> Where in the fine print does it say Festool isn't true Hepa or RRP compliant? Inquiring minds want to know!


It does not really. This debate has been going on for some time about independent third part testing. To the best of my knowledge festool is fully rrp compliant and is a hepa vac. Some will say that some manufacturers only tested the filter and while the filter is hepa the vac is not. Going off of the link Scott Scott posted festool looks to be compliant and rrp approved.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Damon T said:


> Where in the fine print does it say Festool isn't true Hepa or RRP compliant? Inquiring minds want to know!


This seems to be a point raised by a lot of RRP trainers that seems to have little connection to reality. I don't know if the training has gotten better, but attendees at the early sessions seemed to come away with a lot of misinformation. Another example was people thinking that tyvek suits were required for interior RRP work.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Damon T said:


> Where in the fine print does it say Festool isn't true Hepa or RRP compliant? Inquiring minds want to know!


I think Gabe got a little confused. 

Here is some info on the issue:

http://www.eparrphepavacuum.com/hepa-vacuums/EPA-RRP-Certified-HEPA-Vacuum/


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> I think Gabe got a little confused.
> 
> Here is some info on the issue:
> 
> http://www.eparrphepavacuum.com/hepa-vacuums/EPA-RRP-Certified-HEPA-Vacuum/


I'm just trying to figure this out. Never really looked into it. MorePrep hooked me since I am looking into purchasing a unit.

I'm thinking "certified" is not really certified for any manufacture as there is no real certification firms or certification standards (that I am aware of) other than 99.97 00.3 numbers. This can be misused in marketing and branding terms. 

That said EPA and the rrp rules are probably more in line with the renovator actively being safe from lead, they just don't want to see a shop vac on a lead job. Which puts the definition of 99.97 00.3 in the manufactures and renovators hands for interpretation. So the argument isn't the units themselves but the methods of testing the units

Am I on the right track here?

....


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I think you summed it up.

I guess what really bothers me is that there is a perfectly well-established
true HEPA standard that has been used for at least 30 years by some vacuum
cleaner makers, for vacs used in hazardous applications. That standard is
pretty detailed and covers both the filter and leakage past the filter.
It also demands that each filter be individually DOP tested. And it specifies
aspects of filter construction so that the filter withstands abuse and won't
leak because of damage or wear. Also, the multi-stage filtration in those
vacs makes them less expensive to use over time, as several of you
pointed out.

I guess I don't see why the EPA RRP rules did not specify the same
standards that the asbestos removal industry meets regularly.
As Gabe said, maybe they just wanted to prevent the worst from happening,
and they thought it would be a bigger win to mandate a decent but lesser
standard. I guess it comes down to your beliefs, whether you are
worried about lead dust in the air, or more about avoiding fines.

Making these filters must be expensive, because they have to meet a higher
standard. Some manufacturers have chosen to use the HEPA name 
without meeting the spec, since meeting the spec would cost more.
It must be costly to individually DOP test filters.

However their vacuums cost around the same as many true HEPA,
multi-stage vacuums. I don't think you would ever see
asbestos removal companies using a Fein or Festool vac. 
If I were looking for a vac, I would start with c-vac.com, see 
what vacs they make filters for, and then look at those vacs. 
Most are excellent quality. Generally what you'll be missing are 
the tool socket and speed control, which you can get from 
woodworking suppliers or Harbor Freight. I've used several Nilfisk,
Minuteman, and Mastercraft vacs, and they are really well made.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

If I were working with lead or asbestos. I would most definitely want the hepa unit to be under the most scrutinizing testing. So Im with you on that aspect.

....


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Yeah, but my vacuum goes to 11.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Damon T said:


> Yeah, but my vacuum goes to 11.


Classic, dude. :thumbup:


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Seems like all of the dissent here is from Festool vac owners.

I've seen a tragic case of lead poisoning caused by a homeowner using a heat
gun on a very small area. It's no joke.

I really think lead dust is a serious safety issue, not just an issue of compliance.
I have been using RRP type practices since I started painting, and I do that
because I really believe in it. All it takes is 10 micrograms of lead per
deciliter of blood -- an incredibly tiny concentration. This is why I 
only use true HEPA vacs that are good enough for asbestos abatement.
There is a night and day difference between one of their filters and
a Fein or Festool filter when you hold one in your hand. The difference
is obvious, and mandated by the HEPA spec.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

MP

Certainly, much respect for your diligence. If the difference between 99.97 and 99.99 is critical to your work, then you should stick with "true" hepa. I think it is a bit semantic, though, as 99.97 IS HEPA, and is very much an accepted standard for collection, even by the EPA. The other area of confusion is between sticking a "HEPA" filter on a vacuum that is not designed to perform to that standard. 

What is important is awareness, and safe practices. 3 years ago we were blowing all manner of paint and wood dust all around with sanders and crappy bags. 

It is worth noting that many wood species produce dust when sanded that is every bit as dangerous from a carcinogenic standpoint as lead or asbestos. Once any of this crap gets in your lungs, it is staying there. The important point is to be capturing dust before it has the chance to go airborne, whether you work to a 99.97 standard or a 99.99 standard, it is best to be making the effort.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

vermontpainter said:


> MP
> 
> 
> 
> What is important is awareness, and safe practices. 3 years ago we were blowing all manner of paint and wood dust all around with sanders and crappy bags.


Has anyone else on PT even heard of OSHA's "Lead in Construction Standard"??? It's been in place for just over 20 years, and I've yet to encounter anyone else who even knows about it, let alone follows it.

I think RRP is partly a reaction to the general ignorance (literally- most contractors ignore it) of 1926.62. It's as if the Feds decided, "go ahead and poison your employees, but we're taking steps so you don't do that to the homeowners."


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I agree that safe practices and awareness, as well as esablishing respect for the issue, is the primary battle.
I read the OSHA practices when they came out, along with most of the other material on lead safety. I have been following them since I started. I think the fact that they were largely ignored, until RRP and enforcement started, shows the widespread lack of respect for the issue. It's been on every paint can for at least as long.

Regarding filters and vacs, Festool has a niche it is marketing to. They have the best sanders, and their vacs have nice ergonomics. They have found IEST specs that they can cost effectively comply with to meet the letter of the (still ambiguous) law. You won't get fined for using a Festool 
certified vac, most likely. I believe lead and asbestos (and silicates) are in a class by themselves, though I agree that 
wood dust can be carcinogenic, I see no reason not to use the best standard available for filtration and leakage. The vacs cost about the same. I believe there is more to a good filter than having production samples that stop 99.97% down to 0.3 microns. I described some of these differences above.
Multistage filtration and filter durability are important.
Again, it is coming down to a religious issue...what do you believe, given the limited information available...
I appreciate your perspective as well, VP.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Now that we have this all sorted out, how do you guys feel about airless sprayer pumps and guns that run at about 60% transfer efficiencies? 

:jester:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Now that we have this all sorted out, how do you guys feel about airless sprayer pumps and guns that run at about 60% transfer efficiencies?
> 
> :jester:


Who does the testing?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Workaholic said:


> Who does the testing?


As far as I know, the only guy with a lab is JP. Must be him.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I don't know. Guys here claim to have a special zero overspray tip for exteriors.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I don't know. Guys here claim to have a special zero overspray tip for exteriors.


Airless with fine finish tip is the most efficient this planet has to offer. 

I'd rather buy disposable car covers and miles of plastic sheeting than an efficient production sprayer. 

695 all the way baby! (Twin gun modification, please)


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I don't know. Guys here claim to have a special zero overspray tip for exteriors.


I already placed an order for some 217's


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

if I were a paint manufacturer, I would advocate spraying everythang
for a 40% increase in sales....


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Airless with fine finish tip is the most efficient this planet has to offer.
> 
> I'd rather buy disposable car covers and miles of plastic sheeting than an efficient production sprayer.
> 
> 695 all the way baby! (Twin gun modification, please)


Is there a issue with covering a vehicle?

....


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

ewingpainting.net said:


> Is there a issue with covering a vehicle?
> 
> ....


If reducing the amount of airborne product is not a desirable option, then covering a vehicle probably is.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> If reducing the amount of airborne product is not a desirable option, then covering a vehicle probably is.


Is 99.97% of your painting projects in a lab. :jester:

I have one more question if your inherited wisdom will allow it


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> As far as I know, the only guy with a lab is JP. Must be him.


 
I thought most of America had one


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

chrisn said:


> I thought most of America had one


In that case, I have 2!


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