# Washable Flats and / or Matte



## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

When I have a customer ask for washable flat, I suggest PPG Matte finish. It's not "scrubbable" but a soft sponge and some cold water gets dirt off of it nicely.

Here's my question: I have an interior designer telling me she needs me to do a flat finish that's washable. She wants a true flat, not matte. The slightest of sheens and she'll be complaining.

I know that there are lots of washable flats out there. What are the best ones to use? Ben Moore? PPG? SW? Whats the name of the line itself?


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

there are soooo many threads on this already. Hard to find a true flat that is truly washable.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I hate to say it but the only one I have really found is Behr.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

behr does have a true flat paint. but IT IS NOT WASHABLE. I have applied more than any one person should have in their life. Trust me. I have a major repeat customer who has two decent sized yoga studios, a pilaties studio, and couple other buildings. The feng shui consultant speced behr flat. and now, 2 years later, he is pissed because they burnish like crazy and are not cleanable in the least. And of course now he wants everything in semi gloss so he can clean it. I am in the long process of explaining to him how higher quality paints are much more cleanable in lower sheens.


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

I find that the best washable flat is an eggshell. Tell the designer that there is no washable flat. We use flat paints to hide imperfections and because you can easily touch up any damage/marks.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

If the color is not too deep, try Graham Ceramic Flat. It flatter than BM and SW matte finishes. It does not seem to be quite as good as it was before Muralo bought them out, but it is still good stuff. It does have a fair amount of roller spatter though, so plan to keep that contained. If you are near Traverse City, it is available there at the Seven's store and I know it is available somewhere near Grayling I believe, from another painter that used to wander these boards. Do samples first and see if its washability meets your standards.

If you can get Aura Matte up there, it is flatter than BM regular matte finish and would be an even better option. It probably has a touch more sheen that Graham still.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

My only problem w/ Aura is the cost. I planned on PPG Manor Hall at $30 per gallon. Moving to $50 throws off my profit. This Grahm Ceramic Flat sounds similar to PPG WallHide Matte Ceramic. Matte Ceramic does have a sheen that is almost an eggshell though. Now that you guys say there isnt a truly washable flat, I may just tell them they have to go to at least a matte finish and see how it goes.

Thanks for the help.


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

go get a damaged piece of drywall from your lumber yard. Prime both sides. Paint one side with Grahm Ceramic and one side with Aura matte. Let it cure for a week. THen let the designer look at it, spill stuff on it, wash it. Then they will understand.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Try B/M Regal Matte. It is one of the flattest "Matte" finishes and is washable. You will pay in the mid $30's for a gallon, but it is a really nice paint.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

The paint manufactures should really be specing these so called washable flat a scrubbable flat. That is truely what it is. It just mean it can take more scrubs than a normal flat


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

It seems to me Kelly Moore's 655 is a washable/scrubable flat.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

*to me...*

I think "scrubbable" flat means more durability and burnish resistance than a "washable" flat. Washing can be just a damp rag against the surface, scrubbing is really rubbing on the surface and is more likely to cause burnishing.



ewingpainting.net said:


> The paint manufactures should really be specing these so called washable flat a scrubbable flat. That is truely what it is. It just mean it can take more scrubs than a normal flat


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

DeanV said:


> I think "scrubbable" flat means more durability and burnish resistance than a "washable" flat. Washing can be just a damp rag against the surface, scrubbing is really rubbing on the surface and is more likely to cause burnishing.


So what your saying is washable paint is a lesser version than scrubable. Perty much all flat paint says you can wash it with a damp rag. 

There is only one true washable flat that I have used. It was a flat oil base product from Frazee Paints. We here in Cali can not get it bo more.


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## Joewho (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> My only problem w/ Aura is the cost. I planned on PPG Manor Hall at $30 per gallon. Moving to $50 throws off my profit. This Grahm Ceramic Flat sounds similar to PPG WallHide Matte Ceramic. Matte Ceramic does have a sheen that is almost an eggshell though. Now that you guys say there isnt a truly washable flat, I may just tell them they have to go to at least a matte finish and see how it goes.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


If the decorator approached you about the flat after you bid, then you should be able to work out the extra cost with her.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Glycol in colorant imparts negativity to all latex and oil based coatings. UTC's (Universal Tint Color) contains ethylene and propylene glycol along with soaps that were originally included in colorant to integrate into both oil and latex coatings. Glycol imparts softness, sheen, and soap into paint, compromising the films ability to have durability. Resins give back some strength to the film, but a flat or matte latex in any manufacturers paint is not "scrub-able" Ceramics are a gimmick to some extent. Yes they make the film harder or create a film that makes stains difficult to permeate, but you still have UTC colorants that are soft and NEVER really dry. Like leather or suede, when you brush it in one direction, you raise the points of the leather, same with a paint film, which results in burnishing and poor scrub-ability. AURA contains a urethane reinforced water borne colorant that actually dries and forms a film on its own. When it is catalyzed into the hybrid acrylic resin, it actually permeates into the resin particle, and permanently dyes it the color, rather than surrounds the resin and pigment particle like a glycol based coating. As a result, you get a much tighter film, intense hide, smoothness, washability, scrub-ability, quick re-coat, stain resistance, very low VOC and odor, and a spread rate that is as much as twice UTC based paints including Ben Moore's Regal Flat and Matte. So if you need to bid a job at $30 a gallon and need 4 gallons and the labor to put on 4 gallons, versus a paint that will require 2 gallons to do the job at $50 a gallon and the labor to put on 2 gallons, which system is less expensive? Do you get no primer needed, never more than two coats with the exception of 60 reds and yellows out of 3500 colors that require a foundation? Do you get one hour re-coat? Do you get very low VOC and odor? Do you get a tight, washable/scrub-able film with no color rub-off? Yes, AURA is more expensive, but you use less and get it done quicker. It's ok if you don't believe it, hate Ben Moore because the rep doesn't call on you or you get great pricing from your local big box or company owned store. Everyone has a system that is successful for their business, manufacturers that are part of that success, and people that make that success happen everyday. Try the AURA and see if something new can assist your business and reputation grow and thrive. If it doesn't make a difference, then don't use it and go back to what made you successful and got you to where you are to begin with. It's OK


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

DeanV said:


> If the color is not too deep, try Graham Ceramic Flat. It flatter than BM and SW matte finishes. It does not seem to be quite as good as it was before Muralo bought them out, but it is still good stuff. It does have a fair amount of roller spatter though, so plan to keep that contained. If you are near Traverse City, it is available there at the Seven's store and I know it is available somewhere near Grayling I believe, from another painter that used to wander these boards. Do samples first and see if its washability meets your standards.
> 
> If you can get Aura Matte up there, it is flatter than BM regular matte finish and would be an even better option. It probably has a touch more sheen that Graham still.


I agree with Deans Views on this.. But my question is if she was a truely good designer she would there is no such thing as a dead flat that is washable doesn't exist. I would use Aura as well how many gallons will you use on the job? if your at 30 and Aura is 47, your losing 17 a gallon if you marked up PPG then you should be closer to the 47 and may be able to swing it.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

It's not about swinging it. I charge clients 40 per gallon for Manor Hall. Mark up about 12 per gallon. Add 7 to that and it's 19 per gallon. I'll need roughly 10 gallons. $190 extra profit using Manor Hall as opposed to Aura. PPG Matte Finish is almost identical to BM Matte finish. If I have to go with Matte than I might as well use PPG, save the money, and buy a few weeks worth of gas with it.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> It's not about swinging it. I charge clients 40 per gallon for Manor Hall. Mark up about 12 per gallon. Add 7 to that and it's 19 per gallon. I'll need roughly 10 gallons. $190 extra profit using Manor Hall as opposed to Aura. PPG Matte Finish is almost identical to BM Matte finish. If I have to go with Matte than I might as well use PPG, save the money, and buy a few weeks worth of gas with it.


ahh but how much time will you save with Aura, I'd bet you'd save more then 190 in labor.. 

Either way sell the designer on what you feel is best..


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## daren (Jul 5, 2008)

Why the hell do designers do this? They pull something out of their ass and expect us to run around wasting our time and $ to fix it. The designer can do the research and then tell you which paint to use.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Do you guys really feel you save that much time with Aura? Are you doing only one coat even though it is a job you priced for two coats? Are you pricing jobs differently where you are not specifying number of coats and getting by with one coat but had enough built in that if it took 2 you would be fine?

I do not find I am saving time unless it is a 2 coat color change that would have been 3 coats. For application, my standard system is to cut in a wall and then immediately roll it. With Aura, it is cut a room, let it dry (usually have to wait a little bit or find something else to do if it is just a bedroom size room), and then roll it. I think the standard method is a little more time efficient.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

The problem I find with designers is they figure sheens don't matter, I even find some of them that don't get why a faux finish is so much more - or any more in one instance - than two coats rolled out on a wall.

This particular designer always requests flat finishes which is nice because it's the cheapest paint to buy and leaves a great, uniform finish. Now, she throws in washable flat. Not a big deal but I would have figured price on Matte rather than flat. Again, not a big deal, however, it's a bunch of these little quirks that make designers tough to work for.


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## PinnacleResidential (Aug 10, 2008)

I agree w/ Dean V. I think it's nice to use Aura for some of the reds, blues, and greens that don't want to cover. But would you guys use Aura on your basic off-white and beige applications? I just feel like it wouldn't save the time that I would need it to to justify the cost on a small bed / bathroom application.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

PinnacleResidential said:


> I agree w/ Dean V. I think it's nice to use Aura for some of the reds, blues, and greens that don't want to cover. But would you guys use Aura on your basic off-white and beige applications? I just feel like it wouldn't save the time that I would need it to to justify the cost on a small bed / bathroom application.



To me tho its better paint then Regal and if I figure 47 plus mark up so be it.. Aura matte looks a lot better on the wall then regal matte.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Covers better, dries (recoats) faster, low voc, and touches up a gazillion times better. Not a tough sell.


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## MAK-Deco (Apr 17, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> Covers better, dries (recoats) faster, low voc, and touches up a gazillion times better. Not a tough sell.


I agree, it not just about one coat two coat... Its better paint then regal line.. I had all but left BM until they came out with Aura.


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

It is NOT about a supposed or theoretical "one coat"
(It's not a true one-coat paint)

It is about production, especially on the small one bed/bath jobs
And some things that matter more to the customer then us maybe....
It is about Ultra-Low VOC
It is about superior color
It is about burnish resistance
It is about durability
It is about wash-ability


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## slickshift (Apr 8, 2007)

DeanV said:


> Do you guys really feel you save that much time with Aura? Are you doing only one coat even though it is a job you priced for two coats? Are you pricing jobs differently where you are not specifying number of coats and getting by with one coat but had enough built in that if it took 2 you would be fine?


You up charge for the Aura


DeanV said:


> I do not find I am saving time unless it is a 2 coat color change that would have been 3 coats. For application, my standard system is to cut in a wall and then immediately roll it. With Aura, it is cut a room, let it dry (usually have to wait a little bit or find something else to do if it is just a bedroom size room), and then roll it. I think the standard method is a little more time efficient.


Two coat color change is the ultimate use and production rate increase
Other than that it's a bit more subtle

If you are reasonably quick, and/or the wall is not massively huge, you can cutawall/rollawall just fine
It maintains and works with a wet edge just great
You just don't have quite as much time to mess around as some others


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

I like that part about aura, it makes me paint faster.


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