# Odd reaction



## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

First off, i did not do this job, but have been hired to fix it. Fixing it is easy but i am none the less perplwxed with what caused the original issue. 
The homeowner primed this room with coverstain so i know thd prep was good. Looking at other rooms they have done confirms they have a clue as to what they were doing. They painted the first coat of this deep red and all went well. The product was behr (semi) from HD, and actually appears tp have gone on and dried very well for the first coat. The next day they applied to second coat and after one wall called me. The second seems to have reacted to the first and seperated as it dried. You can peel it off with out any effor as well. It was from the same can they used the day before. No thinning either. See pic below. Anyone have a guess?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

That looks like its a primer issue. What were they covering up with Cover Stain and was it oil or waterbase? It appears you can see the issue right through the paint and primer.


Let me clarify... not so much a primer issue with the product but the lack of a properly sealed wall for whatever they were covering up.


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

The wall had 2 coats of coverstain on it, then one coat of the finish. It looked good right up until the second coat of finish went on. All that is peeling and messed up is the second coat of finish, and it only peels to the first layer. I dont believe its a prep ussue at all. The second coat went on well, but as soon as it began to dry it went to ****. Even now as i sand the crap out of it only the top layer is coming off. The first coats is stuck like stink on an ape.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> That looks like its a primer issue. What were they covering up with Cover Stain and was it oil or waterbase? It appears you can see the issue right through the paint and primer.
> 
> 
> Let me clarify... not so much a primer issue with the product but the lack of a properly sealed wall for whatever they were covering up.


I wouldn't be so sure about that since it didn't happen after the first coat, which is usually when you'll run into problems. 

I'd say the problem is the paint that went over the coverstain. As much as you just love to talk up this paint and about how great it is, it's things like this that convince me otherwise.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Precision-TBay said:


> The wall had 2 coats of coverstain on it, then one coat of the finish. It looked good right up until the second coat of finish went on. All that is peeling and messed up is the second coat of finish, and it only peels to the first layer. I dont believe its a prep ussue at all. The second coat went on well, but as soon as it began to dry it went to ****. Even now as i sand the crap out of it only the top layer is coming off. The first coats is stuck like stink on an ape.



I see. Thanks for clarifying. That is odd.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Rcon said:


> I wouldn't be so sure about that since it didn't happen after the first coat, which is usually when you'll run into problems.
> 
> I'd say the problem is the paint that went over the coverstain. As much as you just love to talk up this paint and about how great it is, it's things like this that convince me otherwise.


Let's not jump the gun. There is always an explanation on failures. I've seen that pattern before but I am trying to recall what it was. I'm not convinced it was the 2nd coat even though it happened to occur after the 2nd was applied. 

There is an odd pattern there, especially that straight line across the base line. That doesnt look like a top coat pattern.


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

Rcon

I have never hone on at all about behr paint. I cant stand the stuff. U must have me confused with someone else


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> Let's not jump the gun. There is always an explanation on failures. I've seen that pattern before but I am trying to recall what it was. I'm not convinced it was the 2nd coat even though it happened to occur after the 2nd was applied.
> 
> There is an odd pattern there, especially that straight line across the base line. That doesnt look like a top coat pattern.


I see the pattern and if that were paint applied directly to a wall without the primer i'd say it was grease contamination. On the other hand it also looks like the pigments are separating. I have never seen a reaction like this on anything other than solvent based clears, where the problem is usually silicone.

That the walls were primed with a proven quality primer, and that the issue didn't occur on the first coat of paint, and that plenty of dry time was given between the first and second coats, i'd have to say the most likely culprit is the paint.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Precision-TBay said:


> Rcon
> 
> I have never hone on at all about behr paint. I cant stand the stuff. U must have me confused with someone else


I was referring to JP.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Looks like the plaster wasn't sealed, that is why the cracked patterns came through. Coverstain didn't seal it properly.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

That looks like some fancy glazing! Can't believe they want to fix it.

Not sure why they would opt for semigloss on common walls either, oh well.

I'm with Rcon on this. If I hear these walls were 2 coated with Coverstain and then there is a failure, I know the % possibility that its the topcoats fault is quite high. 

One caveat, it was the homeowners doing this. They may have claimed they did a good job priming, but they may not even know what that means.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

You guys have to consider this is old plaster, and was primed with oil. If there was the slightest amount of moisture there it would cause all sorts of problems.


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

The homeowners do know what they are doing. I have seen proof of this in the other rooms they have done. 

I really looks like the solids and the water seperated on the second coat. In 22 years i have never seen anything like it


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> You guys have to consider this is old plaster, and was primed with oil. If there was the slightest amount of moisture there it would cause all sorts of problems.


This is drywall not plaster


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

what was the deal with the drywall in the first place that they used coverstain?

were there problems with the walls prior to painting?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Orly nvm then, I have no idea what would cause that pattern. That is a dry pic?


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

Dry for over 48 hours in that pic


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

The house stunk like cat piss when they bought it a month ago. They have 2 coated every wall and ceiling in coverstain. When all the floors were out they even 2 coated the plywood.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Too bad they used behr, they started out so good with coverstain...:whistling2:


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

Is the entire wall like that or just patches?

Maybe do a test on the other walls and see if you get the same. See if a different topcoat does the same.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Precision-TBay said:


> The house stunk like cat piss when they bought it a month ago. They have 2 coated every wall and ceiling in coverstain. When all the floors were out they even 2 coated the plywood.


hmmm is that the only area low? Cats back up and spray on walls.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> hmmm is that the only area low? Cats back up and spray on walls.


coverstain would seal it regardless


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> hmmm is that the only area low? Cats back up and spray on walls.


2+ feet up?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Looks like the plaster wasn't sealed, that is why the cracked patterns came through. Coverstain didn't seal it properly.


Plaster was my first thoughts too. Has very similar pattern.


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

The whole wall did it, top to bottom. The rest of the room is grey and turned out fine. Only this wall and tge closet are this red. I tried rolling a wall in the closet myself and it is doing the exact same thing. Goes on great and 10 minutes later it begins to go to hell.
I will try another wall with the dulux accents line i brought with me and see what happens


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Are you on the job site now?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

Very odd. Is the 2nd coat new product from the 1st coat product or all same mix?


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> coverstain would seal it regardless


Are u sure? I never tried it over cat piss.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

yes, I have used it over cat urine and it's worked just fine.

I've used it on walls that were yellow from grease splatter, didn't even try to wash them. Covered like a champ.

I haven't found anything that it hasn't sealed.

I have sealed over many unspeakable things using coverstain...


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

RCP said:


> Are you on the job site now?


Yes here right now


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> Very odd. Is the 2nd coat new product from the 1st coat product or all same mix?


Same can and all
I am without a guess even at this point


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## Precision-TBay (Jun 1, 2011)

So i painted another small wall in the same closet with the paint i brought with me ans after 10 minutes it looks perfect. Starting to dry already, nice and uniform, no issue at all. WTF is going on here? It clearly the other paint but why work on one coat fail on the second, especially paint from the same can?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Precision-TBay said:


> It clearly the other paint but why work on one coat fail on the second, especially paint from the same can?


Because it's behr :whistling2:


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

Cover stain :yes: , Behr :no: Not Behry Good


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

My expertise is not in house painting. At first look, it looked like oil contamination on the surface possibly from cigarette smoke or previously covered wall paper adhesive reacting with the new coating. If this were corrected by a different product, it leads me to believe that it may be the original finish coat was bad or high PVC (pigment volume concentration) that was improperly mixed or overload of pigments in an incorrect base that allowed the solids to migrate as it dried. Higher sheen products have a higher volume of resin. If this colorant was shot into a low resin base (carrier) it would not have enough support to suspend or hold the solids in a homogeneous state which would lead to separation.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

i covered cat piss with some soap an water an 2 coats of finish and 2 coats of coverstain is probably the best 2 coats of anything you could ever put on a wal so im gonna have to say that Behr is the problem here...........i would just sand it down lightly or maybe even light skim coat if the wall is all mesy an what not then another coat of finish an see what happens...most problems with interior paint are just FLUKES anyway an can be fixed with PRIME THEN PAINT so no need to get all worked up...........throw all that behr out an get some contractor grade stuff


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

i say after this thread dies off we come back an remove all mention of ''coverstain'' as to not tarnish its reputation being mentioned in the same sentance with Behr an Failure .................


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> i say after this thread dies off we come back an remove all mention of ''coverstain'' as to not tarnish its reputation being mentioned in the same sentance with Behr an Failure .................


I like the respect you got for Coverstain. But, nothing can hurt Coverstains reputation, unless SW buys it.


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> i say after this thread dies off we come back an remove all mention of ''coverstain'' as to not tarnish its reputation being mentioned in the same sentance with Behr an Failure .................


I don't think that this thread will die. Look at the behr bashing @ DIY Chatroom. This will continue for a long time and create bad blood and a great learning experience


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I'd like to see this thread get away from the Behr bashing and see more effort towards an explanation/solution. I think it was pretty cool to see him posting from the job site. Lot more interesting than the last one I remember, that guy spilled a gallon of paint and wanted to know what to do!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> Lot more interesting than the last one I remember, that guy spilled a gallon of paint and wanted to know what to do!


Classic day on PT.


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## TheRogueBristle (Mar 19, 2010)

mustangmike3789 said:


> My expertise is not in house painting. At first look, it looked like oil contamination on the surface possibly from cigarette smoke or previously covered wall paper adhesive reacting with the new coating. If this were corrected by a different product, it leads me to believe that it may be the original finish coat was bad or high PVC (pigment volume concentration) that was improperly mixed or overload of pigments in an incorrect base that allowed the solids to migrate as it dried. Higher sheen products have a higher volume of resin. If this colorant was shot into a low resin base (carrier) it would not have enough support to suspend or hold the solids in a homogeneous state which would lead to separation.


Best explanation I've read yet. It might explain why the fist coat over primer was ok, because it didn't have the holdout that the second coat had going over the semi.

I don't want together into Behring bashing either, but I would think a mixing mistake would be more likely at HD than at a BM.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> hmmm is that the only area low? Cats back up and spray on walls.


I lol'd for about four posts after this.....


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

I bumped the contrast on your photo. This is not an issue with the paint as much as some of you would love for it to be. Those upper patterns produced the same effect as the ones near the base line. What ever that is, its under the top coat and wouldn't be surprised if its under the primer.

If this was like mustangmike mentioned then the whole wall would be consistently like the left portion of the photo. The left side looks like 10" and the right side 10" doesn't have it.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

jack pauhl said:


> I bumped the contrast on your photo. This is not an issue with the paint as much as some of you would love for it to be. Those upper patterns produced the same effect as the ones near the base line. What ever that is, its under the top coat and wouldn't be surprised if its under the primer.
> 
> If this was like mustangmike mentioned then the whole wall would be consistently like the left portion of the photo. The left side looks like 10" and the right side 10" doesn't have it.



JP, the new paint did NOT have the issue........its the Behr top coat, plain and simple. 

It sounds like an adhesion issue. Any time you put a sheen on walls, you're _supposed_ to pole sand between coats, but how many people actually do this?


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

NCPaint1 said:


> JP, the new paint did NOT have the issue........its the Behr top coat, plain and simple.
> 
> It sounds like an adhesion issue. Any time you put a sheen on walls, you're _supposed_ to pole sand between coats, but how many people actually do this?


I don't, unless its worth it. I probably would if I was using Behr


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## Sully (May 25, 2011)

I'll have to save a copy of this thread and show it to my latest customer that asks me why I don't use behr and makes strange faces when I tell her that I use MAB because it's a much higher quality paint... Of course I'll be cutting my own post out


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

Sully said:


> I'll have to save a copy of this thread and show it to my latest customer that asks me why I don't use behr and makes strange faces when I tell her that I use MAB because it's a much higher quality paint... Of course I'll be cutting my own post out


 

i love MAB but for trim i go for F&H great impressions...........dont think ive ever had a problem with paint before in my life and any problem i did have i jut sanded an painted again an problem solved ...........or prime then paint an problem solved ............or sometimes just painted again an problem solved :blink:


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## mustangmike3789 (Jun 11, 2011)

jack pauhl said:


> I bumped the contrast on your photo. This is not an issue with the paint as much as some of you would love for it to be. Those upper patterns produced the same effect as the ones near the base line. What ever that is, its under the top coat and wouldn't be surprised if its under the primer.
> 
> If this was like mustangmike mentioned then the whole wall would be consistently like the left portion of the photo. The left side looks like 10" and the right side 10" doesn't have it.


 after zooming in at 400% and doing more research on this paint condition in the old NACE CIP manual. this condition is also called PIGMENT OVERLOAD or PIGMENT FLOAT. *description:* mottled surface. *cause:* critical pigment level exceeded (sometimes by tinting white paint rather than tint base). *remedy:* apply properly prepared finish coat. this does fit the description and remedy of this situation. i am curious to see if the correct tint base was used or even if white paint was used as a base. i wouldnt call this a failure due to product but more of a failure of the person mixing the paint. even if the correct base was used, with the amount of colorant needed to create this deep red, i feel that complete mixing and/or constant aggitation would be needed to keep the solids suspended.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

mustangmike3789 said:


> i wouldnt call this a failure due to product but more of a failure of the person mixing the paint.


Oh yeah, thats why I don't go to HD to have amateurs mix my paint


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I think it is a total possibility that there was a mishap at the paint factory......

like someone was slackin' and left out an ingredient in the making? or too much of one.....

I think it would be a very easy occurance for error there....even if machines are doing the work......humans run the machines.

Seems simple enough but also not stirring the paint after it has sat around for days could be to blame-although this looks esp.odd.

good luck with this one.


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