# Cedar Siding Paint Fail Need Advice



## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello,

I have been reading these forums and thought I would register to ask for advice, and help. 

My husband is thinking of painting our home himself, because in the last 15 years we have had it painted 4 times! Which I think is too much, and he's now decided to give it a shot himself. We tried getting back in-touch with the last 
contractor but to no avail, he seems to have disappeared on us.

The house, was originally a acrylic yellow solid stain, this started to peel, and 
was spot sanded and primed with a oil based gray and then 2 coats of acrylic solid gray paint .... Benjamin Moore.

The peeling happened again and we would now be on our 5th paint job.

Just to give you background, the siding is 4.5" exposed cedar siding, SMOOTH SIDE OUT. We have no idea why the original builders used the smooth side out, as we have been told that the smooth side had a mill glaze on it and that was meant for the inside. The builder should have removed this glaze before painting it..... The house was built in 1975.

The paint is now peeling and flaking everywhere. The south side is the worst.

We are guessing that we have to sand it down to bare wood. Any advice on this would be appreciated as to what method you guys suggest would be best. My husband is about to buy a paint shaver pro 6amp to remove all the paint..... Then he intends on using an orbital sander made by the same people and will finish the siding off with either a 50 grit or 80 grit paper.
Would really like advice on what you guys think would be better. 50 or 80?

I believe if we stain the house with a transparent stain, we will never have peeling issues, just fading and it will be easy to re-coat. Except if one wants a more uniform look of a paint, I have been told to use solid stain.

Have been getting different opinions on using a oil based primer first, tinted to the paint color .... then painted with two coats of solid acrylic stain.

Someone told us, not to use a primer, as the solid stain would not penetrate the primed
cedar.... Just to use two coats of solid stain... What are your thoughts on that?

We were going to use Benjamin Moore Stain, any suggestions to use something else that could be better? 

Also any other advice on prepping the cedar, as in how long can we leave in unpainted?
I was told that cedar wasn't a problem and that we need not rush into the painting?

Again thank you all for your help. look forward to getting your thoughts and opinions.
would be much appreciated as this job is making me very anxious.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

My suggestion is to hire a professional as you are talking about a lot of work for a nonprofessional. Even if your husband puts most professionals to shame with his skills he will still have a lot of time to invest. If he is retired then sure peck away at it, if he works for a living still then it will take forever to be completed. That is part of the peace of mind you get by hiring a professional. 

With that said...

Thanks for posting on PaintTalk.com. The Moderators of this forum would prefer if you post Do It Yourself related topics on our sister site www.DIYChatroom.com 

PaintTalk.com is designed for professional painting contractors and the related fields to discuss issues and topics pertaining to the painting industries. Many of our professional contractors are also members at DIYChatroom.com and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.

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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

*Contacted by OP*

I was contacted by the OP that her husband is a professional faux artist and that this cedar job was just out of the normal realm of work, so if anyone would like to offer advice or has any questions to the OP to get a better feel for the problem that would be great. 

I am opening this thread back for discussion.


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## dmpri (Dec 29, 2010)

Workaholic said:


> I was contacted by the OP that her husband is a professional faux artist and that this cedar job was just out of the normal realm of work, so if anyone would like to offer advice or has any questions to the OP to get a better feel for the problem that would be great.
> 
> I am opening this thread back for discussion.


I would look into the possibility of the problem being "mill glaze". Common problem with houses built in the mid to late 80's here in RI. Only solution is to sandblast to remove all coatings..plenty of info out there on it.


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## billy the kid (Jan 22, 2011)

you say your house was built 1975,solid stain,i would still go to the paint store and buy a lead test kit and test some of the failing paint before sanding,lead is very harmful to children and even to your self and your husband...


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

If you use a paint shaver pro, you probably won't need to do much sanding. 

Besides mill glaze:

1) Do you have water leaking behind the wood?
2) Were the bottoms of the laps caulk to seal everything up? (A huge no no!)
3) What kind of vapor barrier is installed behind it? (Some are not compatible, and I don't remember which offhand)

The south side gets the most sun. So it would tend to produce the most heat and draw moisture to the surface, pushing the coating off in the process. If you have bushes or trees that provide shade on that side and it is not peeling in those shady spots, I'd guess at a ventilation/improper installation of the siding. It really has to breath.

The ultimate cedar installation (imho) is over furring strips and I have only seen this done once.

Here's a link to a cedar siding manufacturer's installation tips.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Thank- you for your quick responses, really appreciate it.

First Correction, House was built in 1985 and not in the 70's. My mistake.

We had the Benjamin Moore Rep come to look at it, a few years back, he claimed that it was Mill Glaze, as they had used the smooth side out instead of the rough. The original builders should have sanded it before solid staining it, and we are not sure if they even applied a primer under the original solid stain.

I say this, because as it's peeling almost like wallpaper, the original yellow is visible as the bottom layer, on the peeled paint, and it's peeling down to bare wood, with no sign of a primer. When it was painted last, they used a Benjamin Moore Fresh Start Fast Dry Alkyd Primer (094) and 2 finish coats of BM Acrylic Solid Stain. Within a year it starting peeling. So I am guessing a combination of reasons, mill glaze plus no primer. 

This is the first time we are going to take on an exterior project, and my husband with a few of his workers is going to fix the problem once and for all. Just wanting to make sure that he's going about it the right way, vis a vie
choice of primer and stain... Along with prep ahead of time. He mostly does interiors and faux finishes, which is so different in almost all aspects. 

All your help and advice will be greatly appreciated....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@bikerboy, 

1) No water leaking behind
2) No Caulking in the bottom, wood can breath and it's not a moisture issue
3) Original Backing, Is the black tar paper


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

With such habitual paint failure I would be reluctant to apply a solid stain , primer or paint that will build a film. It could be mill glaze and it could be entrapped moisture. Cedar siding is notorious for both and can be high maintenance. I would hate to see you spend all the time, energy and $ to strip it down to bare only to seal it back up and end up with the same problem down the line. *IF* you can get all of the old coating off I would recommend a semi-transparent stain or a semi-solid at the most and preferably an oil while you can still get them. It won't be as uniform of a finish and yes it will fade and probably grow some mildew, but it can be washed gently with a cleaner and fungicide periodically and a fresh coat of semi-transparent stain can be applied too freshen up the appearance. It's not the look most people go for anymore and is still high maintenance, but you don't run the risk of it failing and coming off. People make the mistake that when the paint fails it is a paint problem-many times it is not, and the paint is only a symptom of an entrapped moisture problem. Cedar siding looks great when it works, but there are many factors against you. Best of luck.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Its gonna take a ton of labor. Hard, intense, dirty labor. You need to remove all the failing coating first. There are several methods to do this, each has its pros and cons.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I have been told that rough side in/ smooth side out cedar will always peel eventually, even if everything is done right. I would recommend either cement board or removing and flipping the siding around. Make sure to take moisture readings of the siding. Low readings do not rule out a moisture problem though since it can be a seasonal thing as well.


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## Tonyg (Dec 9, 2007)

I would recommend wash, sand and remove anything loose, wash, one coat either Mad Dog Primer (http://maddogprimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/2010-primer-brochure.pdf) (http://maddogprimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/specs-mdp.pdf)
or Peel Bond (http://tinyurl.com/Peel-Bond), leaning towards Mad Dog, and finish with two coats of BM Aura. (http://tinyurl.com/BM-Aura-Exterior-Paint)(http://tinyurl.com/BM-Aura-Exterior-Paint-TDS)

Some homework/info on mill glaze - http://www.wolman.com/pdf/reference/R_3_87.pdf

Finished this one last week - Cedar - with above process/system


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## Ardee (Jun 9, 2008)

Is the back of the cedar stained? If it's breathing properly the moisture can get in the cedar thru the back and drawn out thru the front by the sun.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Ardee said:


> Is the back of the cedar stained? If it's breathing properly the moisture can get in the cedar thru the back and drawn out thru the front by the sun.


Great point. Cedar manufacturers recommend priming all 6 sides with special attention to the ends.


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## dmpri (Dec 29, 2010)

This is mill glaze. You will waste your time and money scraping and sanding it. Only solution is either to sand blast it or use paint shaver. I prefer the sandblasting method. It basically gives you a 'rough side out' clapboard. 

I am starting to be a huge fan of Maddog, Peel Stop, Peel Bond but I would think it would be an experiment to see if it would correct this problem. Listen to the paint reps, have them prepare the specifications, follow them and they should warrantee the job.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

DeanV said:


> I have been told that rough side in/ smooth side out cedar will always peel eventually, even if everything is done right. I would recommend either cement board or removing and flipping the siding around. Make sure to take moisture readings of the siding. Low readings do not rule out a moisture problem though since it can be a seasonal thing as well.


That's not true - I have a 6 yr. old paint job on newly installed smooth side out clapboards that is still in perfect condition. It's how you prep the job. You only put rough side out if you are going to stain - and smooth side out if you are going to paint. And trying to get rid of mill glaze by sanding is an utter waste of time.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

What grade cedar? Vertical grain or flat grain? Are you getting peeling on the ring orientation of the boards on flat grain?


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Again Thank-you all for your advice and suggestions.... Lets hope I can answer 
all you of and I apologize with the slow response, have been busy on an interior job......

@CliffK

I agree, with your thoughts.... It's been such a pain in the neck, and I just want to or rather have to get it right this time! I have been told by the BM rep that it's Mill Glaze. So I'm going to use a Paintshaver Pro and get it down to bare wood, then finish with 50 grit, so that it's almost like, but not quite like rough side out..... I'm still not sure on 50 grit Vs 80 grit. Have been told that 50 grit will work perfectly... Will have to wait and see.... I think when it was painted over and over again, and not sanded down completely down to bare wood, a lot of the problem occurred from that, piling on paint on top of
about to be failing paint.....

I was going to do a OIL PRIMER Benjamin Moore, Fresh Start and then 2 coats of Solid Stain which is just a thin paint... I'm not sure if the semi transparent will have the look I want, I will look into the semi solid, didn't know they made one.... Does it look patchy? .... As far as moisture, I don't think it's moisture and I will be using a moisture meter to make sure it's good to paint.

As I said, I have never attempted exteriors, most of my work is interior. This is completely knew to me, and I guess will be a learning curve. Thanks for you help, really appreciate it.....

@ straight_lines..... Thanks, don't I know it already.... 

@ DeanV ..... Had considered Hardi Planks cost was prohibitive.... Also the cedar is in good shape and it would seem like such a waste to throw it away!
Plus, eventually came to the decision that Cement Boards in the end cheapen the house and Cedar is better looking.... 

@Tonyg, again thanks... Will look into mad dog primer, never heard of it before... Is it water base or oil base? If it's water based, I would be very hesitant to use it.... Also your job looks great, I still have to look into the aura because it's paint and I am going towards a solid stain.... I also read someplace, I think on these threads that there is a great California Oil Primer, Just have to find the tread again.... Appreciate your help....

@dmpri Thanks... I have just bought a paintshaver pro so that's the route I choose, there were too many horror stories against sandblasting cedar! Plus I think the paintshaver pro seemed like a better option..... As far as mad dog goes, it's water based right? Everyone I have spoken to, including the BM rep suggests an oil primer, can you tell me why you think mad dog would be better over an oil primer?

@plainpainter, thanks, and how would you suggest one should get rid of mill glaze? Because I'm pretty certain now that mill glaze is what caused the paint failure in the first place.... I'm thinking of using an oil primer and then 2 coats of solid stain, as that's what has been suggested, solid stain being lighter than paint..... Would like this job to last, and worst case scenario just give it a coat to freshen it up, not have it peeling again! I'm going to use either a 50grit or 80grit as the finish sand after the paintshaver pro ... Do you have any thoughts on that? .... Was told that 50grit would be better as it would hold the primer better.... Again thanks for your help.

To add, exterior painting looks so much easier than the faux interior stuff I have been doing, will have to eat those words up very soon...... I realize the prep is the key to any job, but exterior prep is not only a bigger undertaking, if it's done wrong one is in bigger trouble.... 

So any very clear precise thoughts on the prep would be great especially if anyone has used the paintshaver and what grit is it best to finish the cedar with...... Thanks all... Will keep reading your advice...


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## BMDealer (Jun 2, 2008)

Mill Glaze.....could be but highly doubtful if the builder prepped the siding prior to staining? Also the south side is worse then the others, more sun, more moisture pull. Sounds to me to be a moisture problem. When a finish comes off down to bare wood something is pushing from the back side....moisture. I've seen blisters when punctured drip. As others mentioned this is a lot of work sanding, priming with oil and a good acrylic stain finish. You may also want to investigate ventilation, ie. soffits are they clear and not painted shut, gable end vents, ridge vents, are they all operational. You may also want to consider siding shims to help moisture escape easier. Either way you cut it, it will be a lot of work. Good luck


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@BM Member,

It was actually the Benjamin Moore Rep who told us that it was Mill Glaze... Regarding ventilation, thought that was a problem, so shimmed just about everywhere..... plus used a moisture meter.... It really was mill glaze.... 
Decided to use a Alkyd Primer ...... and 2 coats of Solid Stain... Still have not gotten around to starting the job, due to too many interior projects going on.... Can't turn down paying work, for our own house  .....


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## Boden Painting (Dec 27, 2007)

when you use the alkyd primer make sure to get a penetrating primer or long oil, Ben Moore, in my experience, has worked the best at both longevity and tannin bleed.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@ Boden Painting, was going to use the BM Alkyd oil base primer, is that what you would suggest?


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello everyone, finally started the sanding of the house.... The paint shaver pro is fantastic! Used it for the very first time yesterday and today.... Have to figure out how to attach the picture..... In the meantime, would like your advice on whats the best way to remove the paint from the corners? There is a heavier build up in the corners.... Was advised by someone to use a stripper, until someone else said, never to do that because stripper would cause other issues like having to make sure we get it off 100% and that's always a pain......

Any advice on the best way to get it off? If any of you say Stripper, can you suggest the best and easiest stripper? And the best way to make certain that no residue is left from the stripper? 

Thanks will see how I can post the image.....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)




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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Okay so I managed to attach the picture, that was 5 hours work with the paint shaver pro, quite amazing..... I think it will be harder to get all the paint built up in the corners, so any advice to remove it from the corners would be appreciated..... Was thinking of a grinder? Or is there any other tool sander that would make this job easy? Will use stripper as a last resort.... 
Thanks


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

*Help needed don't want to make a mistake.*

Decided to start a new Post to get this right... Thanks for your help.

Badly failing Paint due to Cedar with Mill glaze and smooth side out... Decided to sand down to bare wood..... Used paint shaver pro.... What an amazing machine, if you haven't tried it, get one, it's worth every penny.... The picture you see is 5 hours work.....

Now for your advice and help, because there are too many contradicting opinions.....

1) best way to get old caulk and paint out of corners? Been advised not to use Stripper will never get rid of it completely!!!!! So is there an amazing tool that will do the corners? as in a great grinder, sander ???? 

2) Was going to use a Ben Moore Alkyd Primer and then 2 coats of solid stain. Then I was told, Oil base Primer will seal the wood and not let it breath and cedar needs to breath???? So can you suggest what's the best primer and stain to use?

3) Looks beautiful, have been told to stain it and leave it like it looks.... Except the gray color is preferred and goes with interior of house.... Therefore is there a Gray that is not like a paint? and more like a stain? if so who makes it?

4) Have to use some Stripper where the siding is behind air conditioners, what stripper do you suggest and whats the best way to remove/wash it off 100%..... Would anyone suggest using that in the corners as well for the caulking and old paint?

5) 50 grit or 80 grit for final finish? Been told by some to use 50 grit, so that the primer has a good grip, so have said 80 grit... any thoughts on this would be really helpful...

Finally, Thank-You any advice would be appreciated, don't want to make a mistake, want it to last, and not peel again....


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Nothing wrong with using stripper. Just neutralize it afterwards, you will probably want to sand it down to the proper level of the rest of the boards thou.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Can you suggest which stripper? 

Also still not sure about what to use?

Sikkens

Woodscapes

Arborcoat

Also to prime or not to prime?

Keep reading conflicting opinions, as in, no point in using a primer because the solid stain will not stick to it and will peel off? 

The picture you see is just with the power shaver, hasn't been top sanded, cannot decide on what grit paper to use? 50 or 80.....

Its raining like crazy in NY, will never get this job finished in this weather!!!!

How bad is it for the exposed wood? How long should one wait dry again?

How long can one leave it without primer? 

Thanks


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

*How long before one has to paint Sanded Cedar?*

Just finished sanding almost one side of Cedar Siding with the paint shaver pro, and its RAINING LIKE CRAZY IN NY! Do you guys cover the sanded siding to protect it? How much damage will it cause if any at all? ..... We mostly paint interiors and haven't had to deal with the elements ..... This is our first exterior job..... Would be interesting to know what exterior painters do and how do you cope with the stopping waiting and starting..... Weather has been awful in NY never seen so much rain.... It's more than likely going to be the only exterior job we do this year...... Is there extra prep needed after a rain storm? how long should one leave the siding to dry before finish sanding? ..... 

Any suggestions , Thanks


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## Slopmeyer (Aug 2, 2009)

I think you should be on the DIY forum.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Alright this is my suggestion, and what I would do if it were me. 

Any stripper you can get at your local store will do, but I started using 



and like it. 

I wouldn't prime unless you are painting the cedar. You should be applying an acrylic stain like Woodscapes or Arborcoat. I would apply one coat and check for tannin bleed and only prime those spots with an oil primer. Then spot over those with the stain, and apply a second coat.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

just relax and wait for the rain to stop and the wood to dry - and then prime it. You'll be fine.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

moisture meter


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

The only reason I ever use a solid stain is when I give the HO a option to save a little money on the one or two coat system, compared to the 3 coat system, if you are priming and applying 2 finish coats if it does not peel it will last longer but cost more $$. If you oil solid stain it will block the tannin bleeding, breath a bit better, and fade/fail faster but its cheaper. The way I look at it is the oil solid stain is basically a tinted oil primer. Anyways what I am getting at here is, if the problem was millglaze, there is no moisture problem, you are planning on priming anyways... why the hell would you put a solid stain on top?


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

you should find something that will penetrate the wood, not sit on top. have you looked into cabots? i've done many w/ cabots oil base semi- solid. never peels.
also what is your location?


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## propaintersatlanta (Nov 27, 2010)

It'll be fine just let it dry out b4 coatings


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Mike's QP said:


> The way I look at it is the oil solid stain is basically a tinted oil primer. Anyways what I am getting at here is, if the problem was millglaze, there is no moisture problem, you are planning on priming anyways... why the hell would you put a solid stain on top?


Because it will flex, and breathe. Oil will not.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I would like to see a close up pic of that siding you sanded. Please.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Went through that already, we do interior painting, faux as well.... This is our first exterior painting, therefore the questions.... So I don't get why I should post on the DIY forum..... You might know more about exterior painting, maybe you would like some help with faux painting questions, would be happy to help.

I will take close up pictures and post them tomorrow ......


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

amhab said:


> 3) Looks beautiful, have been told to stain it and leave it like it looks.... Except the gray color is preferred and goes with interior of house.... Therefore is there a Gray that is not like a paint? and more like a stain? if so who makes it?


Semi transparent stain. You'll find that pretty much every paint store carries it. Get the grey matched and fly at er.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Mike's QP said:


> The only reason I ever use a solid stain is when I give the HO a option to save a little money on the one or two coat system, compared to the 3 coat system, if you are priming and applying 2 finish coats if it does not peel it will last longer but cost more $$. If you oil solid stain it will block the tannin bleeding, breath a bit better, and fade/fail faster but its cheaper. The way I look at it is the oil solid stain is basically a tinted oil primer. Anyways what I am getting at here is, if the problem was millglaze, there is no moisture problem, you are planning on priming anyways... why the hell would you put a solid stain on top?



@Mike's QP ..... Want to use solid stain for the color, thats why solid stain and because it's thinner than paint so won't be that heavy? The semi transparent might look very patchy / blotchy ????? Just transparent Stain, isn't the right look on the house...... To be accurate are you saying that priming and applying two finish coats will last longer? Cost is not an issue, just have to get it right, if you know what I mean....

And may I ask what you mean by, "the oil solid stain is a tinted oil primer" 
We were going to apply a oil primer and then two coats of acrylic solid stain.
By what we have been reading, there are conflicting opinions on that???

And yes it was mill glaze because they installed the smooth side out.... Ben Moore Rep looked at it and confirmed it was Mill Glaze and that he had seen similar type of peeling....

Thanks for your help... What do you suggest? Oil Primer, and Oil Solid Stain? Or just 2 coats of Oil Solid Stain?


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

rjensen ptg said:


> you should find something that will penetrate the wood, not sit on top. have you looked into cabots? i've done many w/ cabots oil base semi- solid. never peels.
> also what is your location?


@rjensen ptg Thanks, haven't looked into cabot's but will do now that you mention.... Am concerned that semi-solid will look blotchy / patchy on Cedar??

Location NY ......

I suppose if we are going to apply a primer, we could just apply 2 coats of oil stain if we can get it in the same gray color.... Its a Ben Moore "Stonehedge"

Thanks appreciate your help.....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> Because it will flex, and breathe. Oil will not.


Thank-you @Straightlines, thats exactly what I was thinking or was told that the acrylic will flex, except now I'm hearing that if it's applied on top of an oil primer it won't penetrate the wood and will eventually fail and peel... So a little confused.....

Am thinking of just applying 2 coats of solid stain even 3 like woodscapes or any other that someone on these boards feels will work better.....

We don't care if it fades, because after a few years a wash and another coat will freshen it up.... We just don't want to deal with any peeling and it seems to me that might happen if we apply acrylic on a oil primer?????

Thanks


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Rcon said:


> Semi transparent stain. You'll find that pretty much every paint store carries it. Get the grey matched and fly at er.


@Rcon, thanks.... Will it look patchy? So are you suggesting no oil primer?

Just the semi transparent stain? do you think two coats or three? 

Also any suggestions on Ben Moore? Sikkens? Cabots?

Again appreciate your help .....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Thanks 3 times..... Feel really foolish, it was completely dry by late afternoon!

Painting Interiors is a piece of cake after this!!!! Except, already had people come by asking for quotes, due to the sanding.... Am timing this first job, to give accurate estimate.....

Thank-you all, really appreciate it....


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

amhab said:


> @Rcon, thanks.... Will it look patchy? So are you suggesting no oil primer?
> 
> Just the semi transparent stain? do you think two coats or three?
> 
> ...


You don't use a primer under a semi transparent stain. 

Sikkens has the best exterior stains IMO - but they come with a hefty price tag. I suggest you find one near you and talk to the rep about application instructions. 

Your other option would be to use a solid colour alkyd/latex hybrid siding stain. The final decision would depend on the look you're trying to achieve and the condition of the substrate - obviously if it's old and full of dark spots then a semi transparent isn't going to look very good.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab, I feel you would do just as well keeping all your questions about this in one thread, maybe two with the paint shaver questions but it is ultimately one topic that does not really require a new thread for each question or concern. 

Also if everything stays in one thread it will be easier for everyone to be up to date on the topic rather than maybe having missed a thread.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

Just browsed your other thread and see this is your first exterior job, so thought I might add a bit more to my previous post. 

My suggestion is to go to sikkens, get the siding colour matched to a quart of their log and siding product. Apply two coats to a test area, 24 hours apart (needs lots of dry time). The log and siding stain can 'hide' almost like a paint, though you'll find it won't peel - ever. The important part will be making sure you've done your prep right, which it looks like your doing. 

Expect to pay about $100/gallon for it - like I said it's pricey stuff. 

Good luck.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

*Threads merged by Workaholic

*Amhab, I merged your threads together for the reasons I stated in a couple posts above. Hopefully everyone can follow what just occurred.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been reading these forums and thought I would register to ask for advice, and help.
> 
> ...


Please just hire an experienced painter. Do not just hire a guy because he meets your budget. I would take it all down to bare wood and use a semi solid stain. Oil based would be the best and as far as what product I would check in to Armstrong Clark. Oil based will penetrate the wood better than latex so if your wanting to know if you can get away with latex...NO.

If you decide your hubby ate the wood up pretty bad trying to remove the paint then you will have to paint it unless you got the money to remove every board and reverse them. Apply a stain blocking primer along with 2 top coats. Make sure it is 100% acrylic though. There are many details I can go into, but trying to keep this short.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

amhab said:


> @rjensen ptg Thanks, haven't looked into cabot's but will do now that you mention.... Am concerned that semi-solid will look blotchy / patchy on Cedar??
> 
> Location NY ......
> 
> ...


sikkens may be better, but i've never used it. $100. a gallon!!! OY! talk to cabots, or get a sample can. do 4-5 boards. sometimes 1 coat is all the wood will take. 2 coats should not be blotchy at all.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

A few customer reviews on Cabot stains.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Workaholic said:


> *Threads merged by Workaholic
> 
> *Amhab, I merged your threads together for the reasons I stated in a couple posts above. Hopefully everyone can follow what just occurred.


Thank-you Workaholic, this will make it easier.....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@4th Generation.... Thank-you for your advice, I am certain it is well meant.
I am very sure that my husband is more meticulous then any painter we have contracted for the exterior... I say this because of the type of faux painting he does and the attention to detail. It's his first exterior, on our own house, and he has bought a paint shaver pro, and again, I doubt anyone would spend the time he would getting this right to the extent he is.... Clients who have found out that he's doing an exterior have already asked him to do their homes and that's with knowing that he's on his first exterior job...... Hope that answers your concern... Plus 2 of the painters that were hired, are well known established painters, that he knew..... Knowing that it was a Mill Glaze issue, we don't blame them entirely ...... Anyway, after this job, he will at least know if exterior painting is something he would like to do.... This could be the first and the last!!!! But he's loving it so far.... Beats being inside in the summer.....

Again Thank you for your comments and advice....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@rjenson ptd Thank-you, looking into Sikkens, seems very pricey let me see what price we can get it at $100 a gallon, seems a little OTT... 

@4th generation, thank you for posting the link to Cabot Stains, Wow that's a lot of complaints...... I guess we won't be going that route..... so thank-you.


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

4ThGeneration said:


> A few customer reviews on Cabot stains.


WELL! my, my ,my... perhaps they have changed due to VOC BS. my apologies. ( it was years ago on long island when i last used it.)

anybody else used it recently? it 'was' the best sh-t then.


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## pmi1 (May 10, 2011)

amhab said:


> Again Thank-you all for your advice and suggestions.... Lets hope I can answer
> all you of and I apologize with the slow response, have been busy on an interior job......
> 
> @CliffK
> ...


 Uhhh.... excuse me??? Dear" not a contractor," James Hardi will not lower the value of your house. Having to paint every 4 years will though. James Hardi siding and duration paint will give you a lifetime warranty. I am working oon a house now with the same problem you have and I cant get a paint reps blessing for anything. Why dont you minimizing what we as pro's do and hire someone that can do the job. I mean come on. You are wanting free advice that we have been working for years to gain the knowledge we have. Please dont take this the wrong way but I am sure you dont work for free. Just sayin


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## pmi1 (May 10, 2011)

941owassard said:


> I think you should be on the DIY forum.


This is for contractors, not DIY. Please respect that


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

rjensen ptg said:


> WELL! my, my ,my... perhaps they have changed due to VOC BS. my apologies. ( it was years ago on long island when i last used it.)
> 
> anybody else used it recently? it 'was' the best sh-t then.


Not sure of now, but Cabots also had a chemical called CCA that contained a arsenic pesticide. Imagine breathing that in over the years?


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

pmi1 said:


> Uhhh.... excuse me??? Dear" not a contractor," James Hardi will not lower the value of your house. Having to paint every 4 years will though. James Hardi siding and duration paint will give you a lifetime warranty. I am working oon a house now with the same problem you have and I cant get a paint reps blessing for anything. Why dont you minimizing what we as pro's do and hire someone that can do the job. I mean come on. You are wanting free advice that we have been working for years to gain the knowledge we have. Please dont take this the wrong way but I am sure you dont work for free. Just sayin


Please don't give your advice if you don't wish to.... No one is forcing you to part with your experience.... For one, Hardi Siding hasn't been tested in the East Coast market, and who knows what issues it will have after years.....

Also could you kindly point out where I am minimizing what you you pro's do? We have worked at Faux Painting for many years as well... If you don't wish to share your knowledge, I hope you don't come looking for ours! 

We have been asked to quote on 2 possibly 3 exterior jobs, as this is our first, it's a learning experience.... my husband in-fact is now deciding to take on Exterior Painting, and use his interior painters to do the work... This job, he say's will give him a better understanding and he will know the labor involved..... 

And oh yes, we don't work for free!!! I didn't know that we had to pay for your advice!!! What was it by the way? To use Hardi siding? and hire a pro!


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> I would like to see a close up pic of that siding you sanded. Please.


@fatherandsonpainting: posting close up of the sanding with the paintshaver pro... Let me know if you want them even closer up? These are without the finish sanding, haven't decided if he will use a 50G 0r an 80G for that... He's going towards a 50G for now..... Will post more pictures as he progresses....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

For those of you who keep telling me to post in the DIY forum, please read the entire thread... My husband in a professional faux painter .... this is his first exterior job and most of these postings are by me to help him with your advice.

If you think my post's sound un-professional to you, it's because I am re-phrasing his thoughts and seeking your expertise.... If you don't wish to share your experience, please don't, no one has forced you to! If you want advice on any faux or interior finishing, start a thread and ask away, we would be happy to share....


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Amhab, one thing you may not understand, this forum is more of a place for professional painting contractors to network and share industry trends. We do ask each other a lot of "how to" questions and often discuss products and procedures.

The fact that your 27 posts since you joined in April are all about your siding problems are enough to lead many to the conclusion that you are only here to solve your problem using our expertise. And that is what the DIY forum is made for.

I get that your husband is a Faux Painter, and that is why your posts were originally allowed, sort of a "professional courtesy". So I suggest that you accept the advice given and ignore the rest, it will only end up in an argument that will have the thread closed.

If you and your husband choose to get involved in Paint Talk, we do have a Faux section you would be welcome to contribute. If you choose not to, that is fine as well. 

Good luck with your project, and thanks to the members that have offered their expertise.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I am surprised you haven't gotten more diy directions to be honest. Your prep work looks very good thou to be honest.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> For one, Hardi Siding hasn't been tested in the East Coast market, and who knows what issues it will have after years.....



I have painted many houses with Hardi Board siding down where I am from in Jacksonville, Fl. If they want a East Coast test site they should go there. All of the exteriors we performed with that type of siding is holding up real well.

Primer-Benjamin Moore Fresh start Penetrating alkyd Primer
Finish-Benjamin Moore MoorGlo 100% Acrylic (2 coats)

Caulk we use is Benjamin Moore Moorlastic 55 year caulk.

We also made sure that they had a professional power washing company to keep them on maintenance 1 time a year for the warranty to be good with us. Now that I have been in the power washing field for a few years we can add that to our service offerings as well.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> If you want advice on any faux or interior finishing, start a thread and ask away, we would be happy to share....


This is funny because I have been in your shoes in reverse. a high profile real estate lady who worked for East West properties wanted us to apply a Ralph Lauren suede finish on her office. I smiled and declined. She said yes. I said no. She said its paint.I said its a different kind of painting than I perform. She said lets watch a video lol.She was hard headed. I took it on. Was meticulous as any seasoned pro and it came out looking very nice. In the end...I would like to hire a pro to do it for me on my payroll or send someone to learn, but have not an idea where to start. 

Everyone has to start somewhere. I did not read the entire post of yours before,but now it makes sense.I thought you were a home owner who wanted to go into business because their painters stunk it up lol. Sad thing is most painters stink it up.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

RCP said:


> Amhab, one thing you may not understand, this forum is more of a place for professional painting contractors to network and share industry trends. We do ask each other a lot of "how to" questions and often discuss products and procedures.
> 
> The fact that your 27 posts since you joined in April are all about your siding problems are enough to lead many to the conclusion that you are only here to solve your problem using our expertise. And that is what the DIY forum is made for.
> 
> ...



Thanks RCP... Agreed I'll ignore the rest, and I am most certainly accepting any advice.... One has to start somewhere... I have posted pictures to be helpful to others .... Plus I'm definitely not trying to start an argument with anyone.... To tell you the truth, I think this entire experience yes maybe just on our own home, and picking everyone's brains, is leading to knowledge that 
is making my husband set up an exterior painting company.... As for the paint shaver pro ..... He's only ever used it once and is thinking of buying 5 more kits, so its highly recommended to anyone thinking about using it...


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

straight_lines said:


> I am surprised you haven't gotten more diy directions to be honest. Your prep work looks very good thou to be honest.


Thanks @ Straight lines, Ill let him know you said so.... He still has to sand it, 50 grit or 80 grit.... When that sides finished I will paint more pictures.... The paint shaver pro is amazing, I think he's buying 5 more or 6 more ... will keep you posted.... The prep credit definitely goes to the Paint Shaver ......

We don't think that using a stripper in the corners is a good idea, he doesn't believe it can be neutralized 100% and wants to go the hard route!!!! He's got two of his painters to scrape and sand the corners using some sort of multi tool. ...... 

Thanks again....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

4ThGeneration said:


> This is funny because I have been in your shoes in reverse. a high profile real estate lady who worked for East West properties wanted us to apply a Ralph Lauren suede finish on her office. I smiled and declined. She said yes. I said no. She said its paint.I said its a different kind of painting than I perform. She said lets watch a video lol.She was hard headed. I took it on. Was meticulous as any seasoned pro and it came out looking very nice. In the end...I would like to hire a pro to do it for me on my payroll or send someone to learn, but have not an idea where to start.
> 
> Everyone has to start somewhere. I did not read the entire post of yours before,but now it makes sense.I thought you were a home owner who wanted to go into business because their painters stunk it up lol. Sad thing is most painters stink it up.


Thank-you, @4th Generation... Everyone does have to start somewhere... Never thought this would lead into my husband wanting to paint outdoors! I think he needed a change, wasn't sure if he would like it, took on our own house thinking he could do it, and now thinks it's way to go for summer months when he can be outdoors!!!! I think he's setting up something, going to buy 6 paint shavers, I am just lol, because he was so reluctant to take on our house.... 

RL Suede finish Paint!!! Yikes, I know it well, have used it a couple of times never ever recommended it again... It scuffs really easily, cannot be cleaned
easily, and gives the walls a rough, well suede like finish.... Have removed it from more walls then applied it to! By light sanding! Awful job... I can imagine your not wanting to take it on, and suggest you don't take on any paint with a texture..... 

Again Thanks for your advice... I guess I have been asking mostly, will start posting results up soon, so this thread becomes helpful to everyone else...

BTW if you look at the picture of the side of the house, that's 5 hours of sanding with the paint shaver... Not bad... I think it will go faster, he was just testing with it....


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

rjensen ptg said:


> WELL! my, my ,my... perhaps they have changed due to VOC BS. my apologies. ( it was years ago on long island when i last used it.)
> 
> anybody else used it recently? it 'was' the best sh-t then.


4th is correct. Cabbots went to hell in a hand basket. (it was when Valspar bought them out)


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

amhab said:


> Thanks RCP... Agreed I'll ignore the rest, and I am most certainly accepting any advice.... One has to start somewhere... I have posted pictures to be helpful to others .... Plus I'm definitely not trying to start an argument with anyone.... To tell you the truth, I think this entire experience yes maybe just on our own home, and picking everyone's brains, is leading to knowledge that
> is making my husband set up an exterior painting company.... As for the paint shaver pro ..... He's only ever used it once and is thinking of buying 5 more kits, so its highly recommended to anyone thinking about using it...


the mod. is right, don't bother w/ attacking - defending... waste of time and paper... er, computer screen.

BUT... i think you and your husband may understand that, - IF, you were part of a faux-finish forum; and I decided to go there asking advice, and saying - "well, i guess i'll start my own FF biz after i finish this wall in my house. it been a good learning exp."

you realize i need more than one wall, and some advice to know what i'm doin!... just a perpective, for ya.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> Thank-you, @4th Generation... Everyone does have to start somewhere... Never thought this would lead into my husband wanting to paint outdoors! I think he needed a change, wasn't sure if he would like it, took on our own house thinking he could do it, and now thinks it's way to go for summer months when he can be outdoors!!!! I think he's setting up something, going to buy 6 paint shavers, I am just lol, because he was so reluctant to take on our house....
> 
> Wait to judge until he has had a few hundred home owners with some of which you can not please them if you paid them back in gold just to have the job lol. One lady we painted for while I was with my Grandpas out fit paid the builder extra money for no one to park on her drive way or talk to her. TALK TO HER!!! Imagine us because she had a 300 foot drive way and my Uncle made the mistake of saying Hi to her one early morning. Wedeclined all the work they tried to pass our way after that little fiasco.
> 
> ...


Just since I have been so nice (lol) what info could you give me on doing venetian plaster finishes,how you price and hiring the right guy or school I could attend? On here or a message to my paint talk mail. either way you feel comfortable as I know some would not want to put prices out for all eyes to see.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wow, there will be no mill glaze issues on the cedar. The tannins will be scared to death to come to the surface as well. It has been defeated, beaten into submission. Its going to be rather thirsty. Buy lots of primer.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

vermontpainter said:


> Wow, there will be no mill glaze issues on the cedar. The tannins will be scared to death to come to the surface as well. It has been defeated, beaten into submission. Its going to be rather thirsty. Buy lots of primer.


Yes, but they will never, ever have another failure


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Certainly not until the next one!


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

You are kind of famous amhab. What kind of name is that? 

I'm not going to take the time to do the figuring, but I do wonder if it would have been less time consuming to remove and reverse or replace. You would need tools already available for that to make sense probably. 

Your sanding isn't so bad as I thought it would be. Thanks for the pics.

Have fun digging out the caulk. First see if it will just peel out using your fingers. It will vary whereas some of it will come out easy and some likely will not. Just guessing there as well. You could probably use a Dremel tool such as the one used for cutting door casings to make room for flooring. From the sanding you are likely capable of using one without doing any damage. A five in one tool and a razor knife and some sandpaper usually suffices for removing caulk cleanly from joints. 

Do a good job pressure washing prior to applying any coating whatsoever. 

OK now here is the simple version. My humble one. 

1. If you prime don't stain.
2. If you prime use Zinnser Cover Stain HH, then topcoat with acrylic PAINT.
3. If you paint you will likely want to see the joints where the siding meets the cornerboards and brick moulding caulked. (Pulling out old and replacing with new isn't a bad idea if it's very old. )
4. If you paint you will increase the lifespan of the paintjob by a large increment if you use a paint with a sheen to it. ( I recall you not being happy with the fact that it had to be done so often. )

1. If you stain don't prime.
2. If you stain use two coats oil stain. Solid? ( If you did a really good job prepping and cleaning and restoring the wood you could maybe get away with a transparent stain that would look great. Personally I couldn't imagine going through all that you are doing unless it would be to show off with a transparent stain on an awesome natural wood home. )
3. If you stain you will have to take maintenance actions more frequently. (Especially transparent) But the look would be worth it?)
4. If you stain the look of not having caulk will be more ... traditional? 


Really though figure out what you want and just do it. Look around your neighborhood and look in magazines for ideas. The only thing that has sent warning flags is this: 

If you prime don't stain. If you prime use acrylic paint on top. If you stain, all this work now will have saved you little or no time later.

To restore this wood and then transparent stain would be something though. 

Did I really just take the time to say all of this?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Thanks for the pics by the way.

Are you a paint shaver pro salesperson?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

And one last thing. If you are really contemplating developing a niche in exterior residential repaints, just wait til you have to deal with the people aspect of it. Employees namely. haha You think this is complicated?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> We have worked at Faux Painting for many years as well... If you don't wish to share your knowledge, I hope you don't come looking for ours!


I for one would love if your husband took the time to post pictures of his craft. 



RCP said:


> Amhab, one thing you may not understand, this forum is more of a place for professional painting contractors to network and share industry trends. We do ask each other a lot of "how to" questions and often discuss products and procedures.
> 
> The fact that your 27 posts since you joined in April are all about your siding problems are enough to lead many to the conclusion that you are only here to solve your problem using our expertise. And that is what the DIY forum is made for.
> 
> ...


You can't clean up my mess.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

Natives were getting restless while you were out popping your cherry!


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

amhab said:


> I think he needed a change, wasn't sure if he would like it, took on our own house thinking he could do it, and now thinks it's way to go for summer months when he can be outdoors!!!! I think he's setting up something, going to buy 6 paint shavers, I am just lol, because he was so reluctant to take on our house....


I hope you are keeping track of the labor hours, multiply that by what he charges and ask if you would have paid that.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

RCP said:


> Natives were getting restless while you were out popping your cherry!


Screw the natives. They always will be restless.


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

4ThGeneration said:


> A few customer reviews on Cabot stains.


 That is not a few customer reviews, it is a complaint board where people go to complain, I use cabots practically exclusively and love it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

RCP said:


> Natives were getting restless while you were out popping your cherry!



Speaking of pictures ..........


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

daArch said:


> Speaking of pictures ..........


Only you would ask for pics of that unbearable sight.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Mike's QP said:


> That is not a few customer reviews, it is a complaint board where people go to complain, I use cabots practically exclusively and love it.


Don't tell them Jimmy from Colonial in Reading sent you.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

why would your husband want to expand into exterior painting? It was 98 degrees today and rained for 3 days prior. 

If he was smart he would stay inside, unless hes hands off but it don't sound like it.


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

amhab said:


> @Mike's QP ..... Want to use solid stain for the color, thats why solid stain and because it's thinner than paint so won't be that heavy? The semi transparent might look very patchy / blotchy ????? Just transparent Stain, isn't the right look on the house...... To be accurate are you saying that priming and applying two finish coats will last longer? Cost is not an issue, just have to get it right, if you know what I mean....
> 
> And may I ask what you mean by, "the oil solid stain is a tinted oil primer"
> We were going to apply a oil primer and then two coats of acrylic solid stain.
> ...


to get the results you are looking for you could use solid oil stain applied per manufacturers instructions (one or two coats) there will be no tannin bleeding through the oil. Oil finishes will chalk and fade sooner than acrylic/latex coatings, what I would do is... solid oil stain, when you start to notice the chalking, wash it, oil prime, and two coats of acrylic paint.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> why would your husband want to expand into exterior painting? It was 98 degrees today and rained for 3 days prior.
> 
> If he was smart he would stay inside, unless hes hands off but it don't sound like it.


Duh, generally exterior painting commands a much higher pay rate than faux finishing, and its a good solo service to offer. :blink:


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

after going through the extent of prep work you are doing, I would not want to completely seal the surface right away with a three coat system, that will prevent all breathing of the cedar through the coating. thats why I would use the solid oil stain first, and heck maybe even stick with the oil stain for the maintenance coating.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Mike's QP said:


> after going through the extent of prep work you are doing, I would not want to completely seal the surface right away with a three coat system, that will prevent all breathing of the cedar through the coating. thats why I would use the solid oil stain first, and heck maybe even stick with the oil stain for the maintenance coating.


Ovt as the initial coat with Provt for maintenance is a good combo.


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

straight_lines said:


> Because it will flex, and breathe. Oil will not.


 It wont breathe through a 3 coat system


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

rjensen ptg said:


> the mod. is right, don't bother w/ attacking - defending... waste of time and paper... er, computer screen.
> 
> BUT... i think you and your husband may understand that, - IF, you were part of a faux-finish forum; and I decided to go there asking advice, and saying - "well, i guess i'll start my own FF biz after i finish this wall in my house. it been a good learning exp."
> 
> you realize i need more than one wall, and some advice to know what i'm doin!... just a perpective, for ya.


I agree rjensen, I understand where you are coming from, except as I said, I'm translating his thoughts and if he were writing, I am sure his questions would be better than mine.... As far as starting a new business, in this economy, everyone needs to diversify ... I'm saying I think he's enjoying being outdoors! He might never have said that himself.... I think he's increasing the scope of his work to include exterior.... Don't some of you do interior and exterior work? ..... BTW if you said that in a FF that we belonged to, we would say great, and suggest names of a few great books....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello all, I'm going to try and answer as many in a single post.... to make it easier for everyone....

@4th Generation.... Thank you for your response... I think you must be a very patient painter, which is how my husband works, which leads to be meticulous.
I guess homeowners include all of us, even painters, exterior, interior, we all have to hire someone for some job in our own homes, be it plumbing, electrical work, and suddenly we are the HO/Client... The lady who didn't want anyone to talk to her! was an anomaly, I hope! If my husband had a similar customer, he would have done the same as you.... Not worth the trouble.....

On the venetian plaster front, I will write to your paint talk e-mail, with all the information.... It's not been around in the US as long as it has in Europe, it's not as difficult as it appears to be... Just a learning process like everything else... Once you know how, it will be like anything else... We can email back and forth..... I'll have to get the info from husband so give me a day or two... Hope that's Okay? ....

@FatherandSonPainting ... I lol when you said I was famous, wait till I read what you said to DH! I think he will get me off this site and post with his own Avatar, which he should have done in the first place.... What kind of name is it? Parts of my own....
But really he should be posting here and not I .... I just wanted to help him out and originally just wanted to ask about the Paint Shaver, which I googled and found this forum via a link.... My husband has never posted anything on forums, he never has time! Dislikes computers too! I think its a great place to share ideas and thoughts, and especially information, about the do's and don'ts of the trade..... Anyway, I'll try and get him to start his own thread/post and I am sure he will be so much more cleared with his questions and answers than I have been.... Famous, eh? ... funny... I feel I'm getting told of to go to the DIY forum too often.... 

Now to reply to your kind post.... 

Replacing wasn't ever an option, he didn't want to waste what he thinks is good quality wood.... Reversing was an option, I'm not sure why he rejected it, I will ask again, I think it was because he bought the paint shaver and tried it, and thought it was easier and less time consuming.....

Digging out the caulk , he has some Multi-tools, a bosch and a fein multimaster, he's not too concerned about it though... I suggested, having read on these threads, that he use a stripper, and he said NO, something about the chemicals never coming out and neutralizers never being good enough.... 

Pressure washing, he says he's not going to wet the wood with a pressure washer, he's going to use a AIR COMPRESSOR, and a damp cloth to wipe the boards... He did say he might lightly hose it.... But a big no to pressure washing was his opinion.... 

Thank you so much for your help, and even though you call it your humble opinion, it's much appreciated that you would take the time to answer and help.....

Tell me what this sounds like to you, especially if it's wrong.....

He's thinking about using a product by California Paints

1) Solid Alkyd Linseed oil Stain 
(OR) 
2) Troubleshooter Primer Linseed ALKYD OIL 

With 2 coats of Solid Acrylic Stain by the same company.....

Option #2 Sikkens Rubbol Siding Finish .....


He did think of Arborcoat by Ben Moore, and Woodscapes by Sherwin Williams
but is leaning against water base products.... 

He's not even thinking of transparent or semi transparent stain.... He's set on a particular color, Stonehedge .... Which is what's on the house now, by Ben Moore....

Finally, now that the mill glaze issue is resolved and the wood has a rough side, he could even go back to the Alkyd Primer by Ben Moore and their Solid Stain... 

Again Thanks for your help and your time to answer.... 

And No, not a paint shaver pro salesman at all!!!! I have watched the scraping and sanding method, and then this pricey machine, I might add, worth every penny comes along and just seeing what is does is quite amazing.... Have you ever seen the video they have on their site, well let me confirm it's exactly as it shows in the video.... 
I know I'm sounding like a salesman/woman for them!!! But trust me, he didn't even get a discount on the one he bought!!!! If you can get your hands on one to try it, you would believe me.....

With regard to developing a niche in exterior painting, to be honest, I think he will use all the painters he knows and has worked with.... lets see how this develops, right now
he's about to join up with a company that does everything, tiling, building, and incorporate the painting aspect..... I will keep you posted.... In-fact hopefully I can get off, and he can start speaking with you guys, trust me he won't be as longwinded as I have been .... to get people annoyed!!!

OH, and he's decided to finish sand with 50 grit and not 80, something about the pores being open, and looking like the rough side that should have been out side in the first place.... Again, really thank-you so much.....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@Workaholic

I will have him post some of his work on a new thread in this forum... Well actually it will end up being me that post's it!!!!! I read him these posts, he doesn't understand how everyone has the time or energy to even open a computer and post questions and get answers... He's quite amazed at the time people are taking... Keeps telling me I am very long-winded!!! I think it's a great way to share info.... Just trying to convince him to join so I can get off and he can ask and answer in single sentences....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

RCP said:


> I hope you are keeping track of the labor hours, multiply that by what he charges and ask if you would have paid that.


@RCP, keeping track of time.... the sanding you see in the picture took exactly 5 hours over 3 days... so 1.5 hour on day one, 1.5 on day two, and 2 hours on day 3.... This weekend should be interesting because he will have a much idea of total labor hours for the one side.... Of-course without the painting... He won't move on to the other side until he's finished the side completely including all the painting... I'll then post the labor hours, and you can tell me good or bad. Thanks....


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

amhab said:


> I agree rjensen, I understand where you are coming from, except as I said, I'm translating his thoughts and if he were writing, I am sure his questions would be better than mine.... As far as starting a new business, in this economy, everyone needs to diversify ... I'm saying I think he's enjoying being outdoors! He might never have said that himself.... I think he's increasing the scope of his work to include exterior.... Don't some of you do interior and exterior work? ..... BTW if you said that in a FF that we belonged to, we would say great, and suggest names of a few great books....


i have no books to recommend; except the PDCA publications. btw do you belong to a trade org.? there are many FF in the PDCA. And, is there a FF forum?

FYI - i consider myself an 'oldtimer' now... but, the oldtimers i worked w/ when i was young, esp. if they were trained in europe...they could do - int., ext., swing stage, bosun's chair, wallpaper, faux finish, glaze, etc.- also they could mix their own colors perfectly. hell, they used to 'make the paint'. they were master painters! (and many PITAs) - of course not a one of them could spray... but, you should see them brush out an entire wall w/a 4-5" brush!

BTW- i personally think 1/3 of res. EXT. painting is getting used to ladders, roofs, trees, bushes and SAFETY. that takes many houses & many years. (any one who disagrees is headed for a fall)
rick


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## rjensen ptg (Jun 9, 2011)

PS- as many have said, if you are doing that much work... stain it, show the wood. but, if you are going to paint, you shouldn't have to get every piece of old caulk out!


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Mike's QP said:


> That is not a few customer reviews, it is a complaint board where people go to complain, I use cabots practically exclusively and love it.


@Mike's QP ... I agree it's a complaint board, a rather worrying one, which must put off a few people.... 

@ TJ Paint... have you ever bought a tool and loved using it, I think it's that paint shaver pro ... Imagine having watched 6 guys work on your house, for days on end, scraping and sanding and then painting and it ends up blistering and peeling, not once but I think 3 times! Even I have lost count... Suddenly there is this machine, and he uses it, and I just think he cannot get over it!
He's had all his friends over to look at it... It's like he's showing off a sports car!!!! All the talk is making all these guys, think "Wow this changes everything"..... May I add that some of these guys have totally different professions!!! Now they all want to become painters!!! It's quite funny, the painting hasn't even started.... He's had 3 people ask him to just sand, and they will paint!!! He's telling them they can sand!!! That's why all this talk...
I'm clocking this project.... I'll put it all down if the moderators will allow it.
Including the comparisons, with other quotes and what his time was worth.

Oh and he loves 98 degrees!!!!


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Mike's QP said:


> to get the results you are looking for you could use solid oil stain applied per manufacturers instructions (one or two coats) there will be no tannin bleeding through the oil. Oil finishes will chalk and fade sooner than acrylic/latex coatings, what I would do is... solid oil stain, when you start to notice the chalking, wash it, oil prime, and two coats of acrylic paint.


@Mike's QP... What do you think of California Paints? He's thinking of their Linseed Oil Primer and two coats of their solid acrylic stain...
Thanks


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Somebody please correct me if I am incorrect in my thought process here. 

The purpose of primer on raw wood is three faceted. 

a. "Seal" the wood.
b. "Bond" to the wood 
c. Provide a surface for which the finishing paint will be able to adhere or bond to....

Now, for me this understanding leads me to believe that once primer is applied to the wood, the wood is then sealed. That, to me, would make the point of using a stain of any sort to topcoat primer pointless.....

Staining in terms of function is for sealing wood. Protecting it so it doesn't warp, twist, cup, bow or whatever else wood does... 

Will the stain adhere to the primer better than an acrylic paint? No so far as I understand things.

OK now I am gonna threadjack a little bit pls forgive me amhab. Your first name would be better btw since you are famous now. This has given me incentive to talk 'just for fun' about something. 

Will a stain 'seal' the wood "better" than a primer? Yea probably I would think so in my non lab tested humble thinking.

Will the stain 'bond' to the raw wood better than a primer? This is a question I just don't know for sure but I have entertained that question in my mind the past six months. I am apt to say no is the answer. 

Will the stain provide a better surface than primer for the purpose of topcoating with an acrylic? Not sure about that either but again I am apt to think no again

I wonder those three things right there for the idea I have entertained in my head for best thing to use if customer wants color on treated pickets and rails on an exterior deck. Of course I just use what has never failed me which is my secret brand oil primer . A couple of times I have gone with a solid acrylic latex stain from one of the paint manufacturers and wondered while I was doing it if it would last as long as the zinnser cs plus paint. Doubtful right? I have also pondered the thought (never done it!) of using a stain as a primer so it will seal the wood better but I don't think the solids in the stain would bond as well as zinnser and cause paint failure sooner than later. The solids of the stain would fail to bond to the wood and flake that way AND the acrylic paint would fail sooner as well in it's failing to bond to the stain as well as it would to a primer. It would be one of those Fail Boats for painting I would presume. 

This thinking likely stems from the talk I have heard of primer being just diluted paint or stain just being diluted primer. I don't buy that idea in it's entirety but maybe it is..... 

Back to Ms. suspenseful what's your name, if you or anyone who followed that rant. This is why I say don't stain over primer. If anything, priming over stain is a rule that works with preparation but staining over primer is a no no.... That is why many of the responses are stain two coats over raw or prime then paint. One will cost more long term than the other. 

To me, solid stain is something someone does to cover up the mess they have made of their home due to lack of proper maintenance of a transparent or semi transparent stain over some relatively expensive wood. Why buy cedar and cover it? Why go through all that agony of prep and cover it? Many people think they have cedar because it is rough sawn and it's really poplar or something in whatever region the forest is closest. It gives that look of cedar because most people don't know any better and they cover it completely with a solid of some sort so nobody knows better. The poplar costs half as much or used to anyway. In other words it is fake made to look as if. To me that screams out cheap. Just me though. Poplar holds primer and paint better than cedar. Cedar is beautiful stuff and should be shown off especially for what it costs. Just my tastes is all. Solid over t-11, poplar, pine, metal... yes. Over oak, teak, mahogony, cedar, 


Painting cedar to me reminds me of a saying my young neice has made a habit of saying "Now who would do that?" in her most standoffish tone.... haha 

Anyway cheers to all. Let me repeat if I am wrong in my theory please correct me.


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Mike's QP said:


> That is not a few customer reviews, it is a complaint board where people go to complain, I use cabots practically exclusively and love it.


To each I guess, but I can name a ton of people and on this board that do not like it.I just put some info out there. You can use it or not. No skin off my nose, i just know I wont use it ever.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Now, for me this understanding leads me to believe that once primer is applied to the wood, the wood is then sealed. That, to me, would make the point of using a stain of any sort to topcoat primer pointless.....


Yes. 
It is pointless unless you are going for the quickest route to failure on a film forming coating system.


Moving on, Painting over cedar is stupid, primer and then solid stain is even more stupid. 

Show it off. Thats what its for. Stain with a quality semi trans oil. 3-4th year do the same. 
Thats it. Simple. Live and be happy. Gnite.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Yes.
> It is pointless unless you are going for the quickest route to failure on a film forming coating system.
> 
> 
> ...


@TJ Paint, I understand that you think Painting over Cedar is Stupid, except I have seen homes that have just transparent stain, and they look really patchy, when the cedar is not all the same.... If one want's a uniform even look, as you see in many homes where clapboard has been painted... 

That is why Primer, and two top coats of solid stain, which is, as I am now understanding just a thinner consistency to paint? Correct me if you disagree.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Oh, and anyone out there, used California Paint's? There primer has linseed oil in it, which is meant to protect the cedar, stop tannin bleed through etc etc...
Thanks


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

@fatherandsonpainting, thanks for your helpful post, except I am as confused as ever.... That is to Stain and show off the cedar or to use solid stain and get the uniform look.... Here's my/our theory... This is a builders home, one of those cookie cutter houses.... In the pictures you see the cedar quality, and we doubt that it's going to be the same all over the house.... Remember when they built the house, they used the smooth side out with mill glaze, which we are quite sure caused all the repeated peeling issues..... We thought it was moisture, until that was ruled out by paint reps and a moisture meter.

So the only reason for this type of prep was to get the siding to look like the rough side... which would make the primer adhere and then accept the two top coats of Stain ..... The desired look is still a solid gray uniform which looks better in the area .......

Given the above, we are thinking between 

California Paints
TROUBLESHOOTER® PRIMER, LINSEED ALKYD OIL :23400
This special 100% acrylic, moisture transmitting wood primer is formulated for use under Storm Stain White and Pastel Solid Color Stains, either Linseed Oil or Urethane Latex Base. This white exterior base coat is designed to help eliminate the natural tannin or sugar staining and discoloration produced by bare woods such as red cedar, redwood, fir, pine or white cedar. Troubleshooter Primer for Storm Stain 100% Acrylic Latex has excellent adhesion to all wood surfaces and is highly resistant to peeling. The unique formulation also helps to retard the surface rusting of uncoated nails.

OR
TROUBLESHOOTER PRIMER, FAST DRYING LINSEED ALKYD OIL
:2344X, 23493 + 23495
These special wood primers should be used under Storm Stain White and Pastel Solid Color Stains to inhibit extractive bleeding and provide a long lasting finish under darker colors, either Linseed Oil or Acrylic Latex Base. These exterior primers are designed to neutralize and help eliminate the natural tannin or sugar staining and discoloration produced by bare woods such as red cedar, redwood, fir, pine or white cedar and seal the wood for uniformity of the finish. These Primers have excellent adhesion to wood surfaces and are highly resistant to peeling. The unique breathable formulation also helps to diminish the surface rusting of uncoated nails.

TWO COATS OF ....
MATTE SOLID, 100% ACRYLIC STAIN :472XX
This heavily pigmented 100% acrylic latex matte finish stain is ideal for use on new or previously stained exterior woods. The durable light fast pigments provide maximum and color retention. Solid Color Latex Stains are extremely high-hiding and provide maximum stain durability while enhancing the natural grain and texture of the wood. Solid color stain is water repellent, mildew and fungus resistant and long lasting.


Otherwise Benjamin Moore.... Arborcoat... 

Thanks....


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Cabot ovt solid oil stain in cape cod gray. Done.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Who cares? Read the can, do what the manufacturer recommends.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

amhab said:


> @Workaholic
> 
> I will have him post some of his work on a new thread in this forum... Well actually it will end up being me that post's it!!!!! I read him these posts, he doesn't understand how everyone has the time or energy to even open a computer and post questions and get answers... He's quite amazed at the time people are taking... Keeps telling me I am very long-winded!!! I think it's a great way to share info.... Just trying to convince him to join so I can get off and he can ask and answer in single sentences....


Get on it Girl.

See your husbands single sentences would fit in around here.


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

amhab said:


> @fatherandsonpainting
> 
> In the pictures you see the cedar quality, and we doubt that it's going to be the same all over the house.... .
> 
> Thanks....


Flip a couple boards. Check a few sporadically and see what you get. Curious as to what's underneath. Couldn't be much longer to remove and replace a section of wall at a time. 

The sanding that is done already isn't bad. You said that you want it to look like the rough side and I laughed a little. No disrespect. I think the best you could shoot for is a smooth look and you got some work to do still on just what has been scraped with the machine. The swirlies from the scraper won't look good when topcoated with anything. That is more time in either filling and sanding or just plain sanding. So, you are not reallly at some point of readiness for application yet in your five hours of preparation thus far. 


From what I have learned on here I bet PressurePros could make the boards look uniform after flipping them. I am relatively sure I could, but he knows the science of this pretty good and it seems and you like to try to understand things to it's roots. Chemical needs and methods which I am sure you could locate if you go to the pressure washing section of this forum. No sense in adding this to the mix now you are already confused enough it seems. Seriously talk about that later. 

Whatever you do just please promise me this. Just this one time say "Okay John, I understand not to put stain on top of a primer." Trust me on this one you can do it. 

*If it were my house:* 

*Next step.* 

*1.* *Flip a couple boards see what you are working with. *

*2. Take pics of both sides of the siding and the wall behind it. *

*3. Upload pics to this thread so we can see. (*people want to see your husband's work also in case you overlooked that part )

Why? I am willing to believe that someone on here will tell you how to make it all look uniform.

If you want to run an exterior residential repaint contracting business you are going to have to get to know about this as well so might as well dig in. hahaha I am serious though. You may think I am kidding but I am not. 

*3.* *Take pic of front of house with as much of it's surroundings as possible. Neighbors houses, trees, land, etc....*

Cookie cutter or not you will have a hard time convincing me a cedar house stained properly won't simply POP out as greatness. It's not public housing is it? No offense if it is but even there it would be what my neice would call "pimp" to have a cedar house that was sealed with whatever you want to call the best transparent or maybe semi transparent stain.


I don't even fathom doing faux I wouldn't know how to estimate it. Would like to see your husbands work though. Some of the stuff I see on display at Sherwin Williams is impressive I do like it.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Flip a couple boards. Check a few sporadically and see what you get. Curious as to what's underneath. Couldn't be much longer to remove and replace a section of wall at a time.
> 
> He thinks it would take much longer to remove and replace section of wall at a time, as he could damage boards in the process. plus he's bought the paint shaver and thinks it's doing the job easily enough, so why flip the boards.
> 
> ...


@fatherandsonpainting, I hope you haven't taken anything I have said in the wrong way, your advice is appreciated and valued, as is everyone else's who have given their thoughts to this and parted with their experience. It's a learning process and also a process of elimination of what one shouldn't do. The awful paint failure that kept occurring over the last 15 years, 3 or 4 times, have lost count!!!! Each job given out to a reliable local painting company.... Everyone of them, scraped, sanded (not completely sanded) and applied primer and then 2 coats of solid stain. Not one suggested that it was "Mill Glaze" there was definitely no moisture, we bought a moisture meter. It was only after a paint rep came over and said MILL GLAZE. Surely one of the painters should have known about the Mill Glaze? If they did they didn't mention it. My husband pondered over taking it on himself for quiet a few months, it wasn't an overnight decision, he's going at it as if it was a challenge and because it's his own home, he feels he's not cutting any corners. He is certain that the failure will not happen again because the house should never have been painted over mill glaze. He didn't have enough knowledge to know this, but thinks others should have... I'm not sure if I am allowed to put down the varies cost's of painting here, without breaking the rules... So I won't ,unless someone tells me that I can... I am sure you guys can work it out easily.... 4000 sq ft house, highest side 37ft 

Thanks again for your advice, I'm logging the hours... Will work out the cost and if it was worth it at the end of this project.... Will post it up, and I am sure it will be interesting to know if it was worth it or not....


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

amhab said:


> @fatherandsonpainting, I hope you haven't taken anything I have said in the wrong way, It's a learning process and also a process of elimination of what one shouldn't do.
> 
> Don't be silly this is what I do.
> 
> ...


Now about the fear of removing/reversing siding. I would take into account the need to purchase some material. You will damage a few pieces. Here is the method to damaging only a few. You get a BIG nail setter and a framing hammer. You punch the nails completely through the siding and it slips off easily. No prying or pulling or cracking boards....You have to start at the top of the wall to do this properly mind you. When you replace it you fasten the siding with the proper side out and fill the old hole with something good. Since you insist on going with a solid stain then you should be able to hide it easy enough. Your making me give away too much here.

Lets do this timewise... 

Punch nails through on one board. ? minutes/seconds
Reverse same board and refasten. ? minutes/seconds

If that isn't FASTER than scraping with the magic machine AND BETTER.......

Of course you take setup and clean up into consideration. In all honesty if I had the ladders and walkboards setup with my nail gun ready I would be able to do that maneuver in less than three minutes or I would not be able to give my crew as hard of a time as I get away with. ( I give them hell all the time but they love it secrectly or they wouldn't come back to work.) 

You arent scraping it that fast I am willing to bet and it's still wrong the way you are doing it. 


If you do something else that's fine like I said this is what I do. I find myself talking about these kinds of things all day everyday. Lawyers talk about law and investment advisors about money and preachers about God. I'm not working with feelings here I really don't mind this at all. Never know you may have a friend in my neighborhood. With that in mind I want to say I think you are cutting corners in light of all the scraping your husband is doing. That is only the beginning of what it takes to fix what many builders and so called carpenters make a habit of doing and asking us to fix for them. I am sorry for the position you have found yourself in owning a home with this issue. You aren't the only one and chances are the builder is long gone. I don't mind educating people on things such as this though. 

If you have a problem go to the cause of it and fix that first. Then fix the damage caused by it. I understand you have said the problem is MILL GLAZE. What caused the mill glaze? Does mill glaze form on the rough side of cedar or only the smooth side. How much do you have to take into consideration prior to coating the smooth side of cedar siding? I already know the answers to these questions just trying to help you understand. 

As far as the prime then stain thing. What can I say? You said yourself three or four previous painters did the same thing and it failed. I am apt to say potentially that it was that process itself moreso than any mill glaze that caused the issue. Maybe the paint rep was lying to you to cover his own wachamacallit or make you buy his products. They do that sometimes. Not sure how much a moisture meter is relevant to mill glaze but......

Flip the boards and do it right


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Here is a link. Seemed to look like good data at a quick glance. 
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/willi01a.pdf


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

Here is what I mean when I say I learn from this thread. I just was thinking after reading that pdf file. The grinder your husband is using is likely causing Mill Glaze all over again. Pushing the fibers from one section of the wood into another section of it that is of a different age. The fibers later lift and...... cause mill glaze? 

That PDF is from US Forestry. I have some friends in CA that are in that service. I doubt many people understand wood better than them.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> Now about the fear of removing/reversing siding. I would take into account the need to purchase some material. You will damage a few pieces. Here is the method to damaging only a few. You get a BIG nail setter and a framing hammer. You punch the nails completely through the siding and it slips off easily. No prying or pulling or cracking boards....You have to start at the top of the wall to do this properly mind you. When you replace it you fasten the siding with the proper side out and fill the old hole with something good. Since you insist on going with a solid stain then you should be able to hide it easy enough. Your making me give away too much here.
> 
> Lets do this timewise...
> 
> ...


Hello @ fatherandsonpainting .... I didn't respond, because we decided to try what you had suggested...... Unfortunately it didn't work.... and presented a handful of other problems .....

1) The boards are not as easy to remove.... The nail heads in the boards you remove might have been small one's, in our boards they are big and when one hits them in, they split the board, which means buying new boards..... 
So that method wasn't working as well as it might have for you.

2) Reversing them, well, he still has to sand the surface peeling paint, doesn't like the idea that now the reversed boards are partially painted therefore not breathing from the back..... He thinks the boards have to breath from the back.....

And finally, and most annoying....
3)The bottom edges of the back sides, still need sanding....He found the entire process to be so much more cumbersome than using the paint shaver pro ..... Appreciated your idea, but felt for whatever reason, it just didn't work for him..... He adds that your experience obviously makes it much easier for you to reverse the boards, he doesn't have that kind of experience.
Plus he thinks its a waste of time when he has to sand all the bottom edges anyway....

Worth a try, but failed for him... wanted me to ask, have you tried a paint shaver? ..... 

He's spoken with a few paint reps now, feels confident.... there is no question that he is causing any mill glaze..... He's sanding with 50 grit and those boards are going to soak in the primer.....

He's going to prime with a Storm Linseed Alkyd Oil Primer that is breathable. He's going to top coat with two coats of a Matte Solid 100% Acrylic Storm Stain, made for use over the Linseed Alkyd Oil Primer....

He's gone back to the paint shaver pro sanding method.... 

Will keep you updated.... Thanks, sorry it took a few days to get back, didn't want to answer till he had tried your method....


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

I've seen it in action on You Tube but no I don't own one. Would probably try it if the need arised. The vacuum attachment is attractive. In your specific situation I would do something different but like you said we have different experience levels as well. Lot's of variables involved and not being there in person makes it tough to 'teach' or demonstrate. For me it would be as little effort as going to my toolbox and getting one of these:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour..._rT3Dw&usg=AFQjCNG-D9QLANo82htFO0dFR7m-7gZdOQ 

I understand he wants what he wants. I hope it works out for you both. I would like to see some pictures of the wall behind the pieces he removed. Curious of the sheathing material used and what the house was wrapped with. Curious of the condition of the rough side of the siding as well. 

In any event I hope you got a few new ideas anyway. Enjoy your home.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

amhab said:


> He's going to prime with a Storm Linseed Alkyd Oil Primer that is breathable. He's going to top coat with two coats of a Matte Solid 100% Acrylic Storm Stain, made for use over the Linseed Alkyd Oil Primer....


why not just use a oilbased stain? they generally have linseed oil in them. 2 coats of that rather than 3 coats on your system.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

amhab said:


> doesn't like the idea that now the reversed boards are partially painted therefore not breathing from the back..... He thinks the boards have to breath from the back.....



Interested to see someone with more knowledge than me answer this. Back priming is necessary on crappy old masonite, is it really bad for cedar siding?
If it isn't bad, is it good or just unnecessary?

Never would have thought to do this, just curious how it would affect the longevity of the wood and it's coatings


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## Mod Paint Works (Jul 2, 2010)

Interesting thread and I just feel like I learned a lot about cedar siding!
Anyway, amhab, are you using California Paint products? Just curious as my local shop just brought this product in the shop and I'm totally unfamiliar with it. Owner said it's rated #1 exterior paint for last 10 years. Hope all the hard work pays off!
Thanks!


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

FatherandSonPainting said:


> I've seen it in action on You Tube but no I don't own one. Would probably try it if the need arised. The vacuum attachment is attractive. In your specific situation I would do something different but like you said we have different experience levels as well. Lot's of variables involved and not being there in person makes it tough to 'teach' or demonstrate. For me it would be as little effort as going to my toolbox and getting one of these:
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour..._rT3Dw&usg=AFQjCNG-D9QLANo82htFO0dFR7m-7gZdOQ
> 
> ...


Thank-You for all your advice and help @fatherandsonpainting.... He's already put the pieces he removed back... The Sheathing material the house is wrapped in is like a Black Tar paper, almost looks like Black Sanding Paper.. He's having to replace some of it where the trim has rotted and he's changing the old trim. He's replacing the Black Sheathing paper with a different type, which they normally put around windows.... He was told that it was the best by the place he bought it from..... 

Yes, and thanks for the new idea's always worth a try, experience matters a lot and what you can do in a few minutes, just wasn't working for him.. but as you said he learnt from it.... So thanks.... He's almost finished one side, with the sanding, repaired chimney trip etc.... Hopefully will get it primed and stained by the end of the week.... I will post pictures then....


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> why not just use a oilbased stain? they generally have linseed oil in them. 2 coats of that rather than 3 coats on your system.


@TJ Paint, we thought the same as you, why not two coats of oil base stain... Makes sense to us.... Except, when you apply the 2nd coat of oil base stain on the first, it tends to get a sheen.... Plus, by the end of the year the UV rays would have faded it, and by year 2 it would need another quote... So the maintenance would be every two years at a minimum.... 

Primer is the way to go, after the prep he has done, it's never going to peel, yes it will crack and need another coat after 5 years ..... but just a top coat to freshen it up...... Oil on Oil, he says he's seen it and it looks like a mess... 

Hope that answers your question.... Thanks


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

Mod Paint Works said:


> Interesting thread and I just feel like I learned a lot about cedar siding!
> Anyway, amhab, are you using California Paint products? Just curious as my local shop just brought this product in the shop and I'm totally unfamiliar with it. Owner said it's rated #1 exterior paint for last 10 years. Hope all the hard work pays off!
> Thanks!


@Mod Paint Works, yes we are going to use California Paint Products... It is rated #1, and funnily it's not even made in California, it's made in MA! We had dinner with a very large local contractor who swore by their decking stains ... Plus we read many reviews, spoke with our trusted paint supplier and have decided to try it instead of Ben Moore..... We had detailed discussion with their tech help dept, showed the peeling paint to their rep, and he checked the house with a advanced moisture meter.... The meter we got from the paint store registered 0 moisture where as his showed 13% ... That was after it had rained.... 

Also we are going for a factory color, and not having one mixed at the store.
The factory color is pretty close to what we want.... Reason, because the factory colors are mixed with powders whereas the store colors are mixed with liquid pigments..... I know the powders are better... sorry have forgotten why!!!! Will come back with that info.... My brain has gone to mush with all this paint talk and paint info since this project started!!!! 

Thanks


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## grover432 (Jul 28, 2011)

amhab said:


> Hello everyone, finally started the sanding of the house.... The paint shaver pro is fantastic! Used it for the very first time yesterday and today.... Have to figure out how to attach the picture..... In the meantime, would like your advice on whats the best way to remove the paint from the corners? There is a heavier build up in the corners.... Was advised by someone to use a stripper, until someone else said, never to do that because stripper would cause other issues like having to make sure we get it off 100% and that's always a pain......
> 
> Any advice on the best way to get it off? If any of you say Stripper, can you suggest the best and easiest stripper? And the best way to make certain that no residue is left from the stripper?
> 
> Thanks will see how I can post the image.....


We are using "Peel Away" on the corners and the Paint Shaver Pro on the lap boards.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> Yes.
> It is pointless unless you are going for the quickest route to failure on a film forming coating system.
> 
> 
> ...


Where do you come from? Painting over cedar is stupid????? 90% of the homes where I live either are sided with cedar shakes or cedar clapboards and 99% of them are painted. I can count on one hand the amount of homes that use semi-trans stains on their siding. What siding materials do people use in your area? The only departure from cedar based siding is vinyl siding, or newer materials like hardiplank.


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## amhab (Apr 15, 2011)

plainpainter said:


> Where do you come from? Painting over cedar is stupid????? 90% of the homes where I live either are sided with cedar shakes or cedar clapboards and 99% of them are painted. I can count on one hand the amount of homes that use semi-trans stains on their siding. What siding materials do people use in your area? The only departure from cedar based siding is vinyl siding, or newer materials like hardiplank.


My apologies, been too busy and haven't had any time to read leave alone post on this thread.... @Plainpainter, exactly my thought most of the homes in our area are cedar clapboard and I rarely see one that hasn't been painted.... You are absolutely correct is what you have said..... I could not understand so many people saying that we should not paint cedar..... So thank-you for jumping in there......

On another note, we are in NY, Westchester county area.... There has been so much rain, that it's been impossible to prime... How long can one leave the wood without primer for? Also the caulking has been removed, so that's a little concerning with the crazy downpours we have been getting.....

Any painters on the East Coast with the same "Too much Rain" problem?

Thanks


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

plainpainter said:


> Where do you come from? Painting over cedar is stupid????? 90% of the homes where I live either are sided with cedar shakes or cedar clapboards and 99% of them are painted. I can count on one hand the amount of homes that use semi-trans stains on their siding. What siding materials do people use in your area? The only departure from cedar based siding is vinyl siding, or newer materials like hardiplank.


Cedar, redwood, Masonite, steel, aluminum, vinyl, hardi, t1-11


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Its official Tambasco doesn't know what he is talking about if he thinks painting cedar is a good idea. 90% of the homes in your area have been painted by someone who didn't know any better.


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## YoungPainter (Apr 23, 2012)

Keep eating paint, strip or sand the corners, clean with a mildew and mold control product, stain with TWP penetrating a company out of Oklahoma.... it will look great! Congrats on making the successful jump to exteriors.


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## YoungPainter (Apr 23, 2012)

There is always too much rain for me. Be patient. 13-14 hr days when its dry.


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