# Exterior paint problems



## smithoman (Apr 18, 2007)

Painted a very large exterior and used Kelly Moore 1245 as I have for decades. This is not your Fathers 1245. Horrible flashing sheen problems due to a high tint content in the paint (which also seems very sensitive from flow problems while spraying - fingers). Used a brand new Rac X 515. Hand brushed the trim with white that had extra white shot in. The "whitest white' they called it. Minimum 2 coats white on an off white substrate, min 4 coats over any sort of color. Cost me about $1K in loss from the coverage failure. I reported the lot # to KM but it's the paint not the batch. I hear they're reformulating. Switched to the very expensive Emerald from Sherwin for the next job. Almost the exact same coverage problems painting white trim with this stuff at $55/gallon (my price). Failure!! 4 coats is not a standard!! My letter to sherwin will be submitted shortly. Cost me yet another $1,000 in lost labor and extra materials. I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible to buy paint that actually covers? Apparently, not here in California. Be careful out there and test these products if you're bidding large jobs. You may want to include extra labor costs to cover the substandard materials.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

:thumbsup:http://www.painttalk.com/f2/ace-royal-hi-hiding-white-45226/

See my thread on Ace Royal Hi-Hiding White man. It's decent stuff for a white paint. No tinting to tweak coverage needed.


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## journeymanPainter (Feb 26, 2014)

PPG. I'm not sure what they offer in the states but them mixed with Dulux is awesome


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Emerald  
Ben Moore


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## LA Painter (Jul 28, 2009)

I haven't used Emerald, but I can tell you that Solo covers way better than Super Paint.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Sounds like you're looking for a quality product in all the wrong places. Kelly Moore used to be a pretty decent brand, but recent developments have left me less than optimistic about them. SW is SW, not sure why you thought turning to them was your answer to a high quality product.

Try out Benjamin Moore, California, etc. if you want a decent paint that will save you money by not having to do 4 coats.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Sounds like you're looking for a quality product in all the wrong places. Kelly Moore used to be a pretty decent brand, but recent developments have left me less than optimistic about them. SW is SW, not sure why you thought turning to them was your answer to a high quality product.
> 
> Try out Benjamin Moore, California, etc. if you want a decent paint that will save you money by not having to do 4 coats.


The heck You say! Not high quality? No way!
I assume you mean their paint not their marketing, because obviously their marketing is almost as good as Home Despots.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I should qualify, before I trod on too many toes, that there's nothing terribly wrong with SW's products, they just aren't the higher end of the market- regardless of their pricing structure.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> I should qualify, before I trod on too many toes, that there's nothing terribly wrong with SW's products, they just aren't the higher end of the market- regardless of their pricing structure.


And now you are saying that they have a pricing "structure"? What planet is this on? lol.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

Proalliance coatings said:


> And now you are saying that they have a pricing "structure"? What planet is this on? lol.


Why of course Sherwin Williams has a pricing structure. It is founded on the solid bedrock of "subject to change without notice" and "some contractors are more equal than others" and "sometimes the homeowner is more important than the painting contractor."


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Sounds like the main issue he had was this paint not covering going white over white. That's sad. A quality paint should have adequate performance to cover in one coat in that scenario. 

However, I've found that superpaint doesn't do it. A-100 gets a bit closer. Ben almost does it but not quite. Even Aura has issues in the white going over white.

That's why I specifically noted the "Hi-hiding white" from Ace Royal. They evidently designed it to be a great coverage paint in a white. No black tint needed, no tinting needed. Yes, if the substrate has issues, you will need to prime. Big deal.


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

smithoman said:


> Painted a very large exterior and used Kelly Moore 1245 as I have for decades. This is not your Fathers 1245. Horrible flashing sheen problems due to a high tint content in the paint (which also seems very sensitive from flow problems while spraying - fingers). Used a brand new Rac X 515. Hand brushed the trim with white that had extra white shot in. The "whitest white' they called it. Minimum 2 coats white on an off white substrate, min 4 coats over any sort of color. Cost me about $1K in loss from the coverage failure. I reported the lot # to KM but it's the paint not the batch. I hear they're reformulating. Switched to the very expensive Emerald from Sherwin for the next job. Almost the exact same coverage problems painting white trim with this stuff at $55/gallon (my price). Failure!! 4 coats is not a standard!! My letter to sherwin will be submitted shortly. Cost me yet another $1,000 in lost labor and extra materials. I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible to buy paint that actually covers? Apparently, not here in California. Be careful out there and test these products if you're bidding large jobs. You may want to include extra labor costs to cover the substandard materials.


SunProof from PPG. The stuff is like drywall mud. Most body of any acrylic latex I ever seen.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> Sounds like the main issue he had was this paint not covering going white over white. That's sad. A quality paint should have adequate performance to cover in one coat in that scenario.
> 
> However, I've found that superpaint doesn't do it. A-100 gets a bit closer. Ben almost does it but not quite. Even Aura has issues in the white going over white.
> 
> That's why I specifically noted the "Hi-hiding white" from Ace Royal. They evidently designed it to be a great coverage paint in a white. No black tint needed, no tinting needed. Yes, if the substrate has issues, you will need to prime. Big deal.


I'm surprised you've had trouble with the Aura; the Ben I could somewhat understand. I've never had any complaints with the Aura or the Regal white's going on. Hopefully your problems aren't wide spread and it stays that way. Interesting to hear, though.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Woodford said:


> I'm surprised you've had trouble with the Aura; the Ben I could somewhat understand. I've never had any complaints with the Aura or the Regal white's going on. Hopefully your problems aren't wide spread and it stays that way. Interesting to hear, though.


To clarify, I haven't used a off-white aura or regal. I have heard many on here say that offwhite aura didn't cover worth a darn. So I don't have direct experience with Regal offwhite.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I always try to get factory mixed White when using white. Covers better than store tinted IMO. Also you can return extra or save for next job. 
Our typical exterior trim is either Regal high build or Aura.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

TJ Paint said:


> To clarify, I haven't used a off-white aura or regal. I have heard many on here say that offwhite aura didn't cover worth a darn. So I don't have direct experience with Regal offwhite.


Ben Moore products with Gennex will all cover better with more colorant in them than less, generally speaking. It's a quirk of the waterborne colorants. It's why I usually either recommend ready mix white or a dirtier off-white.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

OP was having to 4 coat stuff to achieve hide. I have yet to paint a white with Aura or Regal that needed more than 2 coats. Moorguard and Moorglo are my go to. Aura for deep colors. I don't like how fast Aura dries even in mild temps it's been an issue for us.


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## Mike2coat (Nov 12, 2013)

Old wood siding ? High temperature don't help either. I prime siding from corner to corner, siding with one coat of tinted primer, when I Spot prime primer and then paint over it it never looks right but always flashes so I primed the whole surface. SuperPaint .


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## PPM (May 5, 2015)

Exterior PPG Manor Hall, or if you can get good pricing, Timeless. 

I've used the regular Manor Hall Ext Semi on a shed with a deep red with an ungodly amount of F colorant, one of the thinner colorants that kills lesser paints, and it covered extremely well in one coat, and looked amazing with two. Expect mid $30's depending on sheen. 

Timeless is one of the only exterior paints I would put in the same category as Aura (which I've only used a few times, but was extremely impressed). 

There has been a rumor at PPG that the coating for Titleist golf balls (which PPG does supply the coatings for), is actually MH Timeless exterior. I have no proof of that however lol.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> Sounds like the main issue he had was this paint not covering going white over white. That's sad. A quality paint should have adequate performance to cover in one coat in that scenario.
> 
> However, I've found that superpaint doesn't do it. A-100 gets a bit closer. Ben almost does it but not quite. Even Aura has issues in the white going over white.
> 
> That's why I specifically noted the "Hi-hiding white" from Ace Royal. They evidently designed it to be a great coverage paint in a white. No black tint needed, no tinting needed. Yes, if the substrate has issues, you will need to prime. Big deal.


Used to be Muralo Endurance white , then we were hooked on California 2010 Satin , now all I use for white is Aura Satin covers excellent for us even over a heavily sanded wood substrate primed with PB or MD it covers like a glove. The Aura Satin interior is a great sleeper product as well. Emerald is way to thin and watery , I used it on a huge exterior Repaint over MD primer will never do that again.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

PPM said:


> Exterior PPG Manor Hall, or if you can get good pricing, Timeless.
> 
> I've used the regular Manor Hall Ext Semi on a shed with a deep red with an ungodly amount of F colorant, one of the thinner colorants that kills lesser paints, and it covered extremely well in one coat, and looked amazing with two. Expect mid $30's depending on sheen.
> 
> ...



I doubt the golf balls are coated with timeless but wouldn't put it past them to coat with Ppg breakthrough.


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## Superiorpnp (Jun 28, 2015)

Have You Tried Duration From Sherwin Williams .


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## Clearlycut (Dec 1, 2013)

Just finished and ext today using 1245 looks preem. What color were you using.?


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## readytoofire (Mar 13, 2015)

High contents of pigment should be thinned in my opinion.


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## fredo (Nov 20, 2011)

*Yep!*



SemiproJohn said:


> Why of course Sherwin Williams has a pricing structure. It is founded on the solid bedrock of "subject to change without notice" and "some contractors are more equal than others" and "sometimes the homeowner is more important than the painting contractor."


This is the real problem with Sherwin Williams in my opinion.

But I have also had coverage AND adhesion problems with Emerald.

www.dqpainting.com


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## Stretch67 (Oct 7, 2013)

Damon T said:


> I doubt the golf balls are coated with timeless but wouldn't put it past them to coat with Ppg breakthrough.


R those coatings considered urethanes? Most of the top golf balls have a urethane cover.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

bryceraisanen said:


> R those coatings considered urethanes? Most of the top golf balls have a urethane cover.



I believe so. It's kind of top secret. Ppg tried to copy the formula I'm told and the best they could do was Pitt-tech or something so they bought the company that made breakthrough.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

bryceraisanen said:


> SunProof from PPG. The stuff is like drywall mud. Most body of any acrylic latex I ever seen.


This product to me is a perfect example of how some painters will do anything to avoid switching away from SW. Any painter I ever sold it to that did an honest comparison with a similar priced SW product loved it. But there were always those painters that had some strange and unknown need to buy from SW and SW only that would bitch like crazy that it wouldn't cover white over white as well as SW would. Bull5hit! 

That's the same kind of bs I've dealt with for 31 years and am dealing with today! I can put a coat of any product I carry and a similarly priced SW product over black at the exact same mil thickness, but I still have painters that refuse to acknowledge the fact that most of the SW products don't cover anywhere near as well. Add to that the fact that my prices match, and my products are much easier to brush, and it really makes me question why so many painter's are so loyal to SW. Are they giving happy endings with their paint? How loyal has SW proven to be to the painters when they are selling to homeowners at a price that is often lower than what long term painting contractors buy the same product for.

And now you can buy Superpaint in a fancy HGTV label at Lowe's for a lower price everyday. I don't get it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> I always try to get factory mixed White when using white. Covers better than store tinted IMO. Also you can return extra or save for next job.
> Our typical exterior trim is either Regal high build or Aura.


It is quite true that factory mixed "whites" will cover better than a white base tinted at the store level. But, many paint brands are discontinuing and some stores no longer carry "packaged" whites because they believe that their white bases hide as well. Don't believe it for a moment. Just remember that many factory mixed whites are simply off shaded with black or umber, and they aren't a particularly bright white.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PPM said:


> Exterior PPG Manor Hall, or if you can get good pricing, Timeless.
> 
> I've used the regular Manor Hall Ext Semi on a shed with a deep red with an ungodly amount of F colorant, one of the thinner colorants that kills lesser paints, and it covered extremely well in one coat, and looked amazing with two. Expect mid $30's depending on sheen.
> 
> ...


Having worked in a factory that made the coatings for golf balls, as well as having worked for PPG for 9 years, I can assure you that they are in no way using MH Timeless to paint NEW golf balls. Maybe recycled practice balls or range balls. There is no way that any Manorhall product has the flexibility and hardness to survive more than a couple of smacks of a golf ball. The physics of what happens when a club hits a ball is incredible if you think about it. It is one of the most violent transfers of energy known to mankind. I have seen MH Timeless being hit with a sledge hammer and that will smash it all to hell. Multiplying that force 100 times isn't conducive to the paint lasting for long.

I did cost analysis for golf ball coatings so I know pretty well what they are.


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## PPM (May 5, 2015)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Having worked in a factory that made the coatings for golf balls, as well as having worked for PPG for 9 years, I can assure you that they are in no way using MH Timeless to paint NEW golf balls. Maybe recycled practice balls or range balls. There is no way that any Manorhall product has the flexibility and hardness to survive more than a couple of smacks of a golf ball. The physics of what happens when a club hits a ball is incredible if you think about it. It is one of the most violent transfers of energy known to mankind. I have seen MH Timeless being hit with a sledge hammer and that will smash it all to hell. Multiplying that force 100 times isn't conducive to the paint lasting for long.
> 
> I did cost analysis for golf ball coatings so I know pretty well what they are.


Whoa there guys. I didn't emphatically state that PPG IS USING MH Timeless for golf ball coatings. It was more or less a tongue in cheek comment. When I worked for PPG this was a particular sales rep go to sales pitch for Timeless. He was a good guy, but I didn't believe him. 

With all the products PPG makes, it wouldn't make sense, for many reasons as you said PAC, to use an ordinary house paint for a coating. Especially considering the impact and sudden load a golf ball is under. 

I heard this rumor before PPG bought Breakthrough by the way. Sorry for the confusion guys.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PPM said:


> Whoa there guys. I didn't emphatically state that PPG IS USING MH Timeless for golf ball coatings. It was more or less a tongue in cheek comment. When I worked for PPG this was a particular sales rep go to sales pitch for Timeless. He was a good guy, but I didn't believe him.
> 
> With all the products PPG makes, it wouldn't make sense, for many reasons as you said PAC, to use an ordinary house paint for a coating. Especially considering the impact and sudden load a golf ball is under.
> 
> I heard this rumor before PPG bought Breakthrough by the way. Sorry for the confusion guys.


Actually, I had some of my customers put the colored lines on defective or old golf balls for use as mini-golf balls or range balls with Breakthrough or Acrylic DTM. Maybe that is where the rumor started. In fact for a while when I worked in SW's Chem coatings we sold Breakthrough for that purpose. Back before PPG bought them.


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## Waugh and Sons (9 mo ago)

For non-white bases, emerald is a dream coat for spraying. For a well primed house, one coat does the trick every time.

Coverage with Emerald whites is tougher though.


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