# Do you owe your customers an 8 hour day?



## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

I've been a self-employed painter for 13 years and, because of diversification, only work 2-3 days(maybe 18-20 hours) per week and spend the rest of my time enjoying my kids and hobbies. I recently took on a job locally that i estimated would take 3 days to complete working 5-6 hours each of those days. It peeves the lady when I leave every day at 2:30 to go pick my kids up from school and be finished for the day. I know now that I should have told her before the job started, but would like some opinions anyway. Do we owe the people we work for an 8 hour day? One of the reasons I own my business is to set my own hours, have some freedom, etc.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

As long as the job site is clean do as you want. If you are leaving a house in a construction zone then you need to remember the client doesn't want their house in shambles and that can be irritating. The sooner your done, the sooner they can get back to life as normal.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

If you are done in the three days you promised you'd be done I don't see what the big deal is. She'd be more irritated if you were done in two and charged for three I bet


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

If you told her upfront your schedule for the work and estimated timeframe then no... which you didn't so she is pissed.

As a homeowner, I would want a painter to knock out the job and let me get back to my normal routine in my home.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

When I leave early, I like to tell 'em "I have two more stops to make today".

1. home
2. the couch


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

I did tell her it would be complete in 3 days, but I never said it would be 3-8 hour days. The job could certainly be done in 2 working 8-10 hour days, but that's not how I want to live life. I did my share of long days and weekends in the past and have regrets because of missing out on things with my oldest child. I do leave the place clean every day.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

As someone who figuratively punches a clock for eight to nine hours a day, like basically the entire work force of the United States of America, I wouldn't care much for a self employed painter who thinks its OK to come and go as he pleases. Unfortunately, this is the motivation for most unemployable painters to become self employed.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)




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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

For the better part of 15 years, I kept that schedule as well, as do several other contractors that I know. I did, however, usually let the client know up front about my responsibilities for after- school child care. Our lead painter was in the same boat, so we'd sometimes alternate taking care of the kids.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

A big "WTG " to CA. An old fart who can still do "this" 40 hours a week...week in and week out.

When I do, I can tell just from how my body feels that I've worked an 8 hour day. A 40 hour week takes me a whole weekend to recover from.

I've been doing this for a long time, and hopefully for quite a few more years. I go home when I'm tired.
I see no sense in blowing my whole load at once.

..so to speak:whistling2:


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)




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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Heatho said:


> I did tell her it would be complete in 3 days, but I never said it would be 3-8 hour days. The job could certainly be done in 2 working 8-10 hour days, but that's not how I want to live life. I did my share of long days and weekends in the past and have regrets because of missing out on things with my oldest child. I do leave the place clean every day.


Than don't sweat it. Sounds like the home owner likes to control people. She is YOUR customer. You call the shots not her.


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## Dave Mac (May 4, 2007)

You handled it like you should, only thing you could do in the futur is tell them your aprox hours, you dont owe them a explanation of why you work those hours only thats your schedule, other then that you handled it like a pro


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## Lazerline (Mar 26, 2012)

I myself leave when I'm ready, Sometimes I stay 12 hours sometimes I stay 5 but if I leave early I usually tell them it's because I have reached a point in the job that if I continue the next process I cant stop half way, I have to finish it and that would push me beyond the amount of time I have for that day. No one has ever questioned me on it.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

When I'm tired, I'm MUCH more apt to screw something up.

(yup even more so than when I'm not)


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Steve Richards said:


> When I'm tired, I'm MUCH more apt to screw something up. (yup even more so than when I'm not)


That brings up another subject... Would your customer rather let you nap in their home or see you leave early?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

Communication is key, and an important factor in providing top-notch customer service.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

wje said:


> That brings up another subject... Would your customer rather let you nap in their home or see you leave early?


LOL

or both


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Communication is key, and and important factor in providing top-notch customer service.


I agree, but they expressed already they would need 3 days to finish, and they are still on schedule.. As long as you show up on time, when you said you will I don't see the issue.


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## READY TO ROLL (Dec 12, 2011)

At my age (58) I like to put in about 6 hours a day. With those hours I can work at at a fast pace without taking more then a couple 5 minute breaks. My body holds up well with those hours. Anymore then that and my back, feet, etc start to go. I tell the HO upfront the hours I work. I just tell em' that I gotta leave by 2pm to go over to another job. Once and awhile they do give me a little grief about it. When I was younger I sometimes worked 7 days a week but don't want to do that anymore. To all you younger guys, yes, It will catch up with you.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Yup, the only thing wrong I see is the lack of communication. People are _usually_ very good at understanding parental needs, but it is their home and we do owe it to them to allow them to get back to their normal life style as quick as possible.

I am sure if you had discussed your needs and her needs before you started, an understanding and even compromise (if necessary) could have been worked out. 


When I have a twelve hour job, I tell them "the better part of two days". No one has complained yet with two six hours days or an eight and a four.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

What's the difference in a homeowner expecting an eight hour day from a contractor, then a contractor who expects a full day out of _their _employees? Answer, none.

I'm in total agreement with any homeowner who doesn't appreciate their project being used as a platform for some self employed painter to live out his or her entrepreneurial fantasy of making their own hours. I can't do that with my employer, why should I let a painter get away with it?

If you want to play during the day, hire more help.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

READY TO ROLL said:


> At my age (58) I like to put in about 6 hours a day. With those hours I can work at at a fast pace without taking more then a couple 5 minute breaks. My body holds up well with those hours. Anymore then that and my back, feet, etc start to go. I tell the HO upfront the hours I work. I just tell em' that I gotta leave by 2pm to go over to another job. Once and awhile they do give me a little grief about it. When I was younger I sometimes worked 7 days a week but don't want to do that anymore. To all you younger guys, yes, It will catch up with you.


I don't usually have to tell them anything. They can see me stumbling around, and want me out before I break something.

Nice to have another old guy on board.
Be sure to read the OPPU thread when you get a chance. ( not required)
http://www.painttalk.com/f14/old-people-pain-updates-20601/

Calm down, CA.
Some of us like being lazy!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I don't usually have to tell them anything. They can see me stumbling around, and want me out before I break something.
> 
> Nice to have another old guy on board.
> Be sure to read the OPPU thread when you get a chance. ( not required)
> ...


Fishing for a bump? Nice!


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I haven't bumped it, because no one wants to see me get started on my pains.

..and man have I got a bunch!


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I haven't bumped it, because no one wants to see me get started on my pains.
> 
> ..and man have I got a bunch!


or where you cause pain in others:jester:

I'm still playing SR's SL Bingo.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I've got this (new) pinched nerve in my neck. I think it might be from our new bed.

I guess we can just discuss it here.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

wje said:


> I agree, but they expressed already they would need 3 days to finish, and they are still on schedule.. As long as you show up on time, when you said you will I don't see the issue.


I personally don't have an issue with it either. My guys probably only work six hours a day too, they just spread it out over a full eight hour day. Whenever the homeowner has a problem though, that is a real issue, whether it be real or perceived. In this case, the HO is disappointed that he isn't working full days, due to lack of communication. Disappointments of any kind are bad, especially when they can easily be avoided.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Steve Richards said:


> I've got this (new) pinched nerve in my neck. I think it might be from our new bed.
> 
> I guess we can just discuss it here.


I posted the solution in OPPU.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

CApainter said:


> What's the difference in a homeowner expecting an eight hour day from a contractor, then a contractor who expects a full day out of their employees? Answer, none. I'm in total agreement with any homeowner who doesn't appreciate their project being used as a platform for some self employed painter to live out his or her entrepreneurial fantasy of making their own hours. I can't do that with my employer, why should I let a painter get away with it? If you want to play during the day, hire more help.


Well A self employed painter is not the home owners employee, just like an employer isn't his employees customer. 

A little bit of a difference. I think if the situation of coming and going as you please is being taken advantage of that is one thing, but for a home owner to get up in arms about a paint job that is going exactly as scheduled is a bit much. What's next? They allowed to criticize break times? Washroom breaks?


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

wje said:


> Well A self employed painter is not the home owners employee, just like an employer isn't his employees customer.
> 
> A little bit of a difference. I think if the situation of coming and going as you please is being taken advantage of that is one thing, but for a home owner to get up in arms about a paint job that is going exactly as scheduled is a bit much. What's next? They allowed to criticize break times? Washroom breaks?


I agree with you 100% on this one wje. I hate when a HO treats me like I am their employee.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

CApainter said:


> What's the difference in a homeowner expecting an eight hour day from a contractor, then a contractor who expects a full day out of _their _employees? Answer, none.
> 
> I'm in total agreement with any homeowner who doesn't appreciate their project being used as a platform for some self employed painter to live out his or her entrepreneurial fantasy of making their own hours. I can't do that with my employer, why should I let a painter get away with it?
> 
> If you want to play during the day, hire more help.



I think something that you're forgetting, is that in some capacity, our day as owners doesn't end when we leave the jobsite.

Some days I leave after 6-8 hours and still have 4-5 hours worth of stuff I have to do before I can relax with my wife. 

Granted, there are some days where we leave early to "play"; but that is our right as people who take the risk of owning a business. 

We aren't selling people a set number of 8 hour days. We are selling a completed job, based on how we do things. 

And what about the companies that work four 10's? I would be much more unhappy with people in my house for 10 hours than I would for them only staying 6. 

So with you're logic 10 hours isn't ok either.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Excellent point, Hines.

I pretty much never leave a job site and don't have anything left to do that day.
(although I don't have a damn thing to do today)

Tools to clean, paperwork, paint store for the next day, phone calls...THEN the (sweet sweet) couch.

A lot of HO's don't understand that, but a lot of them do.

..but lets not start picking on CA..cuz that guy can type the livin' sh!t out of pretty much any one of us.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

CApainter said:


> What's the difference in a homeowner expecting an eight hour day from a contractor, then a contractor who expects a full day out of their employees? Answer, none. I'm in total agreement with any homeowner who doesn't appreciate their project being used as a platform for some self employed painter to live out his or her entrepreneurial fantasy of making their own hours. I can't do that with my employer, why should I let a painter get away with it? If you want to play during the day, hire more help.


I'm a employee here too.
Naaah.
What would be the semce of being a one guy type operation, painting houses, and not allow ur self to work as you please? Hours and pace and everything.
If you give someone a flat price to do x in three days and x gets done in the three days then that's that IMO.


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## Roamer (Jul 5, 2010)

No matter how great a painter you are, no matter how polite you may be, and no matter how good you may look, no one wants you in their home. Putting up with having painters in the house is probably the hardest thing for the homeowner to endure in the entire process. 

As long as your are being as expeditious as possible then you will likely have a satisfied client.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

Roamer said:


> No matter how great a painter you are, no matter how polite you may be, and no matter how good you may look, no one wants you in their home. Putting up with having painters in the house is probably the hardest thing for the homeowner to endure in the entire process.
> 
> As long as your are being as expeditious as possible then you will likely have a satisfied client.


Thats right, the sooner your out the better!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm looking at this discussion objectively, and certainly understand that there will be homeowners who don't mind a contractor coming and going as their needs insist. Particularly if the self employed contractor has to pick up his or her kids. But, I also believe it is good business practice, and an ethical obligation for a contractor to be cognizant of the homeowner's privacy and expeditious completion of a project as to not un-necessarily impact the homeowner.

Besides, it's_ not_ a homeowners responsibility, or obligation to pacify the entrepreneurial ambitions of the self employed. I'm paying you to paint my home, not for you to live your dream. It's not personal, its business.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Really, would all of you like to have a contractor un necessarily camping at your house just because they have more important things to do during the day? I say "Git her done, and get the F out!"


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> I'm a employee here too.
> Naaah.
> What would be the semce of being a one guy type operation, painting houses, and not allow ur self to work as you please? Hours and pace and everything.
> If you give someone a flat price to do x in three days and x gets done in the three days then that's that IMO.


Spoken like a true union painter.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Really, would all of you like to have a contractor un necessarily camping at your house just because they have more important things to do during the day? I say "Git her done, and get the F out!"


Yep I agree 100% 

BUT the timeframe given was 3 days and the timeframe taken will be 3 days according to the op. So in all fairness this job is right on sched. If the homeowner was initially thrown off by a painter in their home for 3 days they could have asked if there were any way to get the job done in 2 days and maybe other arrangements could have been made to expedite the process (ie 2 longer days or bringing in a helper etc.) 

So in this case I see it no fault of the op, and the homeowner just being over reactive. 

On the flip side of my argument, I like being in somebody's house for an extended period of time about as much as they like to see me there. If I can save a trip and work a few longer days, that's what I'm going to do. This also opens another debate of invading privacy.. If you work 10 hour days in an occupied house and you are painting a living room while dinner is taking place in the dining room doesn't that become more aggravating than the guy that left an hour before supper? 

Typically on resi repaints when I smell supper, I'm going home.


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## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

There's a huge difference in being an employee and self employed. When I worked for someone years ago I showed up, painted for 8 hrs. (minus 1/2 hr. lunch) , went home. No other duties other than producing all day. Self employed means, returning phone calls, schedule estimates, doing estimates, mailing contracts, dropping off color charts, scheduling jobs, phone in paint order, pick up paint order, doing the jobs, buying office equipment, paying business bills, organizing work truck , and the list goes on. Much more responsibility and time consumption than just being an employee. But I wouldn't trade it for nothing. In 20 years I've never had a client question me about leaving early if I had to. The problem lies with the type of client like the one originally mentioned. This type of person feels they are being short changed, money wise, by not getting a solid 8 hrs per day out of the painter, even though the OP will finish in the 3 days as promised. But this same client wouldn't say a peep if the painter was there for three ten hour days. Now the client feels they are getting their moneys worth of said job. Only question client should ask when you have to leave early, "Will you still be done in three days?" Yes I will.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I read these various opinions and find little, if any, fault in any of them.

I guess people are different and will react to different scenarios differently.

But I do think the rules change (or more the HO's perceptions change) when dealing with a solo op vs an army of workers. 

And above all, communication with and sensitivity to the HO is paramount. 

Heck, some folks may WANT me out of the house in the afternoon before the kids come home from school and would rather have me there for an extra day so complete bedlam doesn't reign after 2:30. 

I don't know.

But people ARE different, and it is best to discover the HO's parameters and preferences. That I do know.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

Lots of very well written replies. Thank you. It is my fault as far as communication goes. It's been a while since I've done any local residential painting. I've had a talk with the HO and all is good now. Lesson learned.

I only get to raise my kids once, so they come first. Yes, the money from working many hours is nice... I've been there. But I've discovered the hard way that my children need my presence, not my presents.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I try and get home by three. so I kinda wouldn't mind if u are workin at my house if you were done say 2:30.
and Resi guys what exactly is 'first thing in the morning' to you?
'First thing in the morning' is to me 6 a.m.
'Getting a early start' is like 5-5:30 a.m.
It seems like when I deal with residential guys 'first thing in the morning' is someplace between 9 and 11 a.m.? Break time!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not convinced that the building industry, in general, is designed to have workers come and go as they please. And this includes self employed workers, in my opinion.

I'm not at all saying that a busines owner _isn't_ entitled to come and go as they please. Isn't that what being out of the bucket is all about? But, to reduce the productivity at a job site so that a self employed worker can leave early to excersise their entrepreneurial right to liesure time, without having someone left at the job site to continue productivity, is wrong.

As a paying customer, I have the right to have my project completed expeditiously.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Oden said:


> I try and get home by three. so I kinda wouldn't mind if u are workin at my house if you were done say 2:30.
> and Resi guys what exactly is 'first thing in the morning' to you?
> 'First thing in the morning' is to me 6 a.m.
> 'Getting a early start' is like 5-5:30 a.m.
> It seems like when I deal with residential guys 'first thing in the morning' is someplace between 9 and 11 a.m.? Break time!


Ha! My partners (commercial drywall) main crew start early too- for valentines they started at 330 so they could get home by lunch and spend some quality time with their ladies before the kids got out of school...


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Oden said:


> I try and get home by three. so I kinda wouldn't mind if u are workin at my house if you were done say 2:30.
> and Resi guys what exactly is 'first thing in the morning' to you?
> 'First thing in the morning' is to me 6 a.m.
> 'Getting a early start' is like 5-5:30 a.m.
> It seems like when I deal with residential guys 'first thing in the morning' is someplace between 9 and 11 a.m.? Break time!


I really prefer starting early too.

Most occupied work I can't start before 8 or 9...and that screws me up. By the time I start, I'm exhausted from pacing the floor here.

(of course nowadays I can spend that time on PT..being hilarious)


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

LOL

Dammit it Slinger, don't thank me for that kinda crap!


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I'm not convinced that the building industry, in general, is designed to have workers come and go as they please. And this includes self employed workers, in my opinion.
> 
> I'm not at all saying that a busines owner _isn't_ entitled to come and go as they please. Isn't that what being out of the bucket is all about? But, to reduce the productivity at a job site so that a self employed worker can leave early to excersise their entrepreneurial right to liesure time, without having someone left at the job site to continue productivity, is wrong.
> 
> As a paying customer, I have the right to have my project completed expeditiously.


I can understand that, CA.

I hate leaving a job, especially in the Summer..and have nothing else get done.

But I might be hiring some help this year. He can stay.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> LOL
> 
> Dammit it Slinger, don't thank me for that kinda crap!


OK. :whistling2:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

So are you going to be putting that back?

..or should I go ahead and have dinner?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> So are you going to be putting that back?
> 
> ..or should I go ahead and have dinner?


I'm thinking about it. 

Could be you hurt my feelings, hollering at me like that.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

slinger58 said:


> I'm thinking about it.
> 
> Could be you hurt my feelings, hollering at me like that.


HA!

I never mean to hurt anyone's feelings here.

Dinner it is. Good thread, people. Thanks.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Steve Richards said:


> HA!
> 
> I never mean to hurt anyone's feelings here.
> 
> Dinner it is. Good thread, people. Thanks.


Lol.

Having lobster tonight?


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

READY TO ROLL said:


> At my age (58) I like to put in about 6 hours a day. With those hours I can work at at a fast pace without taking more then a couple 5 minute breaks. My body holds up well with those hours. Anymore then that and my back, feet, etc start to go. I tell the HO upfront the hours I work. I just tell em' that I gotta leave by 2pm to go over to another job. Once and awhile they do give me a little grief about it. When I was younger I sometimes worked 7 days a week but don't want to do that anymore. To all you younger guys, yes, It will catch up with you.


 
Hell, I am older than you and STILL sometimes work 70-75 hours a week.

Just a couple years ago when I was driving a truck, 70 hours a week was mandatory

The painting part I still like, the truck driving, not so much


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## ProWallGuy (Apr 7, 2007)

Heatho said:


> only work 2-3 days(maybe 18-20 hours) per week and spend the rest of my time enjoying my kids and hobbies.


I have to assume your wife has a good job.
Does she have any sisters?


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

$2,500 bid ..youll be done in 3 days. your done in 2 an they want money back. done in 4 ?...oh well sucks to be you


sound familiar to anybody ?


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

IMO .... my personal time is valuable ... i really don't want a part time contractor doing work in my home :no:


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

Steve Richards said:


> When I leave early, I like to tell 'em "I have two more stops to make today".
> 
> 1. home
> 2. the couch


WOW ... your wife lets you sit on the couch :whistling2:


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## Ghoul (Jun 2, 2008)

I worked 6.5 today, 4.5 yesterday, and pretty much the same hours all last week. I have kids and thangs to do! 

After all these years, I still have a conscience of the customer thinking I'm short changing them and I'm wondering what they think. It's on my mind until the job is done and the check is in my hand. I hate that part and wish I could change it. 

That kind of stress makes me get drunk sometimes, actually a lot of times. BUT, When the job is done and they express their happiness with my work, and they thank me from the bottom of their hearts, I get really happy, I go home and get really drunk! Then I wake up with and worry about the next job.


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

chrisn said:


> Hell, I am older than you and STILL sometimes work 70-75 hours a week.
> 
> Just a couple years ago when I was driving a truck, 70 house a week was mandatory
> 
> The painting part I still like, the truck driving, not so much


70 houses a week?:blink:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Repaint Florida said:


> WOW ... your wife lets you sit on the couch :whistling2:


Well, _*after*_ she throws a blue plastic tarp over it.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

mudbone said:


> 70 houses a week?:blink:


Sheeeeet, even when I was 18 I didn't visit 70 "houses" a week. Not enough oysters on the East Coast for THAT kind of stamina. But then again, those Maryland shellfish are different. 

:jester:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> Sheeeeet, even when I was 18 I didn't visit 70 "houses" a week. Not enough oysters on the East Coast for THAT kind of stamina. But then again, those Maryland shellfish are different.
> 
> :jester:


Oh, the places AutoCorrect takes us.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

When I decide to work the odd shorter day, or just line up a job thats going to take me a half day, I prefer to start at 10 rather than my regular 8 am start and work till 430 if need be. Reason being is that I get to sleep in an extra half hour and spend part of the morning with my Wife and kids, where when I come home early or on time, I always have something else to do which can pre occupy my a lot of the time.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

ProWallGuy said:


> I have to assume your wife has a good job. Does she have any sisters?


Lol... Not married. Single dad here. Not overly swamped in debt. I also have 5 rental properties and buy and resale vehicles every now and then. Hence the lower hours per week at the "real job". Lol


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

From what I gather, I should, upfront, let the HO know what my working hours are going to be and why. If they aren't comfortable with that, then the job isn't for me. If they understand and have no problem with it, then we're all happy.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

Heatho said:


> From what I gather, I should, upfront, let the HO know what my working hours are going to be and why. If they aren't comfortable with that, then the job isn't for me. If they understand and have no problem with it, then we're all happy.


I don't think they need to know why you don't work 8 hours, but would say I'll be here from 8 - 2 or whatever, for however many days.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

On interiors I like to be as fast/productive as possible, but on exteriors I don't mind dragging the job out a bit. It's much less of an inconvenience for the client.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Ghoul said:


> I worked 6.5 today, 4.5 yesterday, and pretty much the same hours all last week. I have kids and thangs to do!
> 
> After all these years, I still have a conscience of the customer thinking I'm short changing them and I'm wondering what they think. It's on my mind until the job is done and the check is in my hand. I hate that part and wish I could change it.
> 
> That kind of stress makes me get drunk sometimes, actually a lot of times. BUT, When the job is done and they express their happiness with my work, and they thank me from the bottom of their hearts, I get really happy, I go home and get really drunk! Then I wake up with and worry about the next job.


 
sounds like the beginning of a long term relationship with AA to me
( speaking from experience)


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

mudbone said:


> 70 houses a week?:blink:


I have no idea what you mean:whistling2:


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> Oh, the places AutoCorrect takes us.


 
and a dirty mind


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

From a customers point of view: I had some guys in my home reworking our double hung windows awhile back. I had to take off work to stay here while the work is being done.
They said they would be here "First thing in the morning" that to me would be sometime between 7-9. 
Well I'm calling them @ 10:00 and I get the well we had to go pick up this or that, blah,blah,blah! 1 day it was 10-2:30.1 day 9-2.1 day 10-6 when I had to run them off. My wife and I do not want people runnin around our home that late
It's frustrating as a customer to not have someone you are paying to do work not respect and value your time. How you show that respect is by communication. Let them know what time you will be there each day and keep them informed as to what they should expect tomorrow


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

chrisn said:


> I have no idea what you mean:whistling2:



Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
_Hell, I am older than you and STILL sometimes work 70-75 hours a week.

Just a couple years ago when I was driving a truck,* 70 house a week was mandatory*

The painting part I still like, the truck driving, not so much_


70 houses a week?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

aaron61 said:


> From a customers point of view: I had some guys in my home reworking our double hung windows awhile back. I had to take off work to stay here while the work is being done.
> They said they would be here "First thing in the morning" that to me would be sometime between 7-9.
> Well I'm calling them @ 10:00 and I get the well we had to go pick up this or that, blah,blah,blah! 1 day it was 10-2:30.1 day 9-2.1 day 10-6 when I had to run them off. My wife and I do not want people runnin around our home that late
> It's frustrating as a customer to not have someone you are paying to do work not respect and value your time. How you show that respect is by communication. Let them know what time you will be there each day and keep them informed as to what they should expect tomorrow




Now THERE is one of my BIGGEST irritants. 

Not being clear WHEN they arrive and then not being there in that time frame. What are they, monopolistic cable company guys ????

My standard approach, "What is the earliest convenient time for you and your family for me to arrive. I am in a habit of arriving at 7:00"


I then arrive in the neighborhood up to a half hour early, pull off and read, and knock on their door as my watch is going beep beep.


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## Grateful_Monk (Jul 17, 2012)

If you told her 3 days and it's done in three days, tell her to put a sock in it. 

I was doing an estimate for a guy who was bragging to me how he got over on the carpenter that built a bar in his basement. It really annoyed me that this guy could care less about the carpenter's well-being that clearly underestimated the job.

Naturally I jacked the price up for painting. I told him it would take 4 days but knew we could do it in 2 as we did. He paid me when we finished but left me a 10 minute message on my voice mail later that day telling me I ripped him off.

I called him right back but he didn't answer the phone so I left on his message..

"What goes around, comes around.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

I wish I were guiltless enough to be judge jury and executioner


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think I'd enjoy a contractor "teaching me a lesson" very much.

..but who needs referrals anyhow.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

You owe your boss I.e. The person who hired you a honest days work, for a honest days pay. I will leave the rest of it up to you.


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## Northwest_painter (Jan 27, 2012)

Grateful_Monk said:


> If you told her 3 days and it's done in three days, tell her to put a sock in it.
> 
> I was doing an estimate for a guy who was bragging to me how he got over on the carpenter that built a bar in his basement. It really annoyed me that this guy could care less about the carpenter's well-being that clearly underestimated the job.
> 
> ...


A customer that is happy tells one person. a customer that is pissed off posts on face book twitter pintrest and all other social media sights and tells them how they got ripped off. Just saying not worth losing the war to win a battle.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

paintball head said:


> Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
> _Hell, I am older than you and STILL sometimes work 70-75 hours a week.
> 
> Just a couple years ago when I was driving a truck,* 70 house a week was mandatory*
> ...


AutoCorrect from mistyping "70 hours"?


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

Northwest_painter said:


> You owe your boss I.e. The person who hired you a honest days work, for a honest days pay. I will leave the rest of it up to you.


 I totally agree. My productivity during those 5-7 hours I feel would rival most peoples 8-hour days. No breaks, lunch on the fly, ect. I think an honest days work doesn't always have to equal 8+ hours per day.

HO was actually surprised when I said 3 days. I guess the previous painter took longer. I'll be finished in 2.5.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> From a customers point of view: I had some guys in my home reworking our double hung windows awhile back. I had to take off work to stay here while the work is being done.
> 
> <<snip>>>


Aaron, I totally agree with your frustration about them using the "cable company" approach to scheduling: "Sometime between 7 AM and 6PM".

I'm curious about the high-lighted part and why it was necessary for you to be there while they were doing the work. I understand we're in very different communities and all, but we just give contractors a key if they're working on our place and our clients who won't be around do the same for us.

That being said, I do make it a point to be reachable if they have any questions.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Gough said:


> Aaron, I totally agree with your frustration about them using the "cable company" approach to scheduling: "Sometime between 7 AM and 6PM". I'm curious about the high-lighted part and why it was necessary for you to be there while they were doing the work. I understand we're in very different communities and all, but we just give contractors a key if they're working on our place and our clients who won't be around do the same for us. That being said, I do make it a point to be reachable if they have any questions.


 I agree with gough about the highlighted part. As frustrating and expensive as it is to take time off work, I hire people to work on my home who I trust with a key to my house much like my customers trust me with a key to their homes. If they don't trust me I don't want to work for them them, and if Ido t trust somebody in my house I won't let them work here.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

wje said:


> I agree with gough about the highlighted part. As frustrating and expensive as it is to take time off work, I hire people to work on my home who I trust with a key to my house much like my customers trust me with a key to their homes. If they don't trust me I don't want to work for them them, and if Ido t trust somebody in my house I won't let them work here.


With all of my posts in this thread about being on the op side on this one, I don't want to give the idea that I run a business where we come and go. 

Personally I tell my customers when we start 830 unless they need to adjust he time to fit a certain schedule, until 430. 

We clean up everyday and require a space In the home to leave our equipment, usually a basement or a corner out of the way. 

That is how we do things. We will either usually get a key to the house or have a key left on site for us to have access to the house. Sometimes we go off site for lunch and we make arrangements with the homeowner so they know if we leave for half an hour we will be back. 

As a lot of you have said communication is definitely key, but working an hour and a half shy of a full day while staying on schedule is hardly worth getting fired up over in my opinion


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The OP's opening comments, in this thread, suggested that, as an experienced self employed painter( presumedly licensed), he only dedicated a moderate amount of labor hours per week to painting. Around 18-20 hours. Couple that with a customer, he describes as, concerned about his early departure from the job site, and his admission that painting isn't his regular gig any how, how can you not agree that he is the exception rather than the rule?

Instead, most members were given accolades for supporting his position, when most self employed painters here know they will dedicate more time to the job, particularly if paint contracting _is_ their bread and butter. And its really about the dedication and commitment to the job rather then working exactly eight hours.

Apparently, the OP didn't convey a sense of commitment to his customer. I'm dealing with a contractor like that now, and unfortunately, I may have to drop him from the program..


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

I didn't read through all of this so this has likely already been stated but there is a bit of a difference between interior and exterior work in this area. 

With exteriors, there really shouldn't be too much of an issue with working less than a full day or week. Unless there is a tight deadline to meet, _most_ HOs wouldn't care too much when an exterior gets wrapped up. Interiors are an entirely different issue. Having rooms disrupted always makes us cognizant of our hours and we make a real effort to get them back together ASAP. 

Regardless, if you won't be able to put in fairly full work days, that should be shared with the customer at the time of the bid so they have a chance to decline if it that's a problem for them.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Aaron, I totally agree with your frustration about them using the "cable company" approach to scheduling: "Sometime between 7 AM and 6PM".
> 
> I'm curious about the high-lighted part and why it was necessary for you to be there while they were doing the work. I understand we're in very different communities and all, but we just give contractors a key if they're working on our place and our clients who won't be around do the same for us.
> 
> That being said, I do make it a point to be reachable if they have any questions.


My wife is not as trusting as I am  and there are many other home owners who feel the same way. Please remember,they do not "know you" no matter how well you feel you have bonded at your initial presentation. This is there home and you should never take offense to someone wanting to be there while you work.
That being said a big portion of our customers we never see.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Grateful_Monk said:


> If you told her 3 days and it's done in three days, tell her to put a sock in it.
> 
> I was doing an estimate for a guy who was bragging to me how he got over on the carpenter that built a bar in his basement. It really annoyed me that this guy could care less about the carpenter's well-being that clearly underestimated the job.
> 
> ...


That'll keep em comin back LOL! :whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> My wife is not as trusting as I am  and there are many other home owners who feel the same way. Please remember,they do not "know you" no matter how well you feel you have bonded at your initial presentation. This is there home and you should never take offense to someone wanting to be there while you work.
> That being said a big portion of our customers we never see.


Maybe it's because we're in a small market or because we work almost exclusively on referrals, but I'm hard pressed to remember a time when a client made it a point to be home when we're there. I know it's been almost 20 years since that happened. 

It has come up during initial conversations, and potential clients have mentioned that they'll need to arrange their schedule so they can be home while we're working in the house, I politely end the discussion at that point.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Maybe it's because we're in a small market or because we work almost exclusively on referrals, but I'm hard pressed to remember a time when a client made it a point to be home when we're there. I know it's been almost 20 years since that happened.
> 
> It has come up during initial conversations, and potential clients have mentioned that they'll need to arrange their schedule so they can be home while we're working in the house, I politely end the discussion at that point.


That's great,but are you really offended that someone feels they would like to be home while you work inside their home??
IMHO that is a bit thin skinned


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> That's great,but are you really offended that someone feels they would like to be home while you work inside their home??
> IMHO that is a bit thin skinned


Sorry, I should have explained further. Not offended or thin skinned. It's just been our experience that it's another red flag that's often indicative of a client that's going to be more trouble than she's worth.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Gough said:


> *Maybe it's because we're in a small market or because we work almost exclusively on referrals*, but I'm hard pressed to remember a time when a client made it a point to be home when we're there. I know it's been almost 20 years since that happened.


Not all painters work 100% off of referrals and repeat business. Yes, I would expect your customers to have more trust in you due to your reputation. 

I'll bet, those same clients of your, would not trust a guy alone in their home, if they found them off of craigslist. 

Yes, I already know your rebuttal, "my customers would never use a painter found on craigslist." :no:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CJ-Newfield said:


> Not all painters work 100% off of referrals and repeat business. Yes, I would expect your customers to have more trust in you due to your reputation.
> 
> I'll bet, those same clients of your, would not trust a guy alone in their home, if they found them off of craigslist.
> 
> Yes, I already know your rebuttal, "my customers would never use a painter found on craigslist." :no:


That's why I qualified my comments as I did.

The good news is that there's only one painter on Craigslist in the area. Even better, he's having a sale, 50 % off all paint jobs. I think we may be serving different markets....


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> Sorry, I should have explained further. Not offended or thin skinned. It's just been our experience that it's another red flag that's often indicative of a client that's going to be more trouble than she's worth.


Interesting. I never even considered it an issue


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> Interesting. I never even considered it an issue


Who knows, maybe it's just coincidence. I just started to see a pattern. Not that it was a huge sample size, but it was enough to make me take notice.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Gough said:


> Who knows, maybe it's just coincidence. I just started to see a pattern. Not that it was a huge sample size, but it was enough to make me take notice.


I think one of the pros of working alone or with a small crew is that you do tend to get a lot of referral work and are often personally on site for the whole job. 

Aaron, I know you have multiple crews and must have other means to land work other than referrals. You are sending crews of people the homeowners may have never met before so I can understand that in hiring a bigger company, it is a way different experience. 

Most sole proprietors runnin a solo gig offer a much more personal experience in my area, and most home owners know you personally, or has a friend that does. I think that plays a huge role In it. 

We do about 10-15 jobs a year in people's second homes who either come here on weekends only, or over the summer. We usually get a key and have free range of the place and hat is he norm around here. Every winter we get 2 or 3 houses to paint while the owners go south for the winter. Again, we get free range if the place and treat the jobs as fillers and it works out awesome. 

It is clear every market is different, and in my experience the smaller the market, the more laid back the home owners usually are due to the small town lifestyle.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Gough said:


> That's why I qualified my comments as I did.
> 
> The good news is that there's only one painter on Craigslist in the area. Even better, he's having a sale, 50 % off all paint jobs. I think we may be serving different markets....


Yes, I hear what you are saying.

Unfortunately, some guys rely on Craigslist, flyers, door knockers, news paper ads etc, so the HO would be hiring an unknown. 

Some people just want to be home and it‘s not a matter of trust. They may have pets or some other reason to want to be home for the duration. I’ve had guys in my place that have left my door wide open, while doing plumbing. And I have pets that are 100% indoor pets, and if I wasn’t there, my pets would have gotten out of the house.

Some people may leave you in their homes alone, but they may not have any choice due to a demanding job. Even the people that you think trust you in their home, secure their valuables before you enter.

I've been in people homes that leave a $20 bill or check book on the table. Of course, they are just testing your honesty. 

I make a joke with people, I tell them, if I am going to steal, I will use a ski mask. :jester:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CJ-Newfield said:


> Yes, I hear what you are saying.
> 
> Unfortunately, some guys rely on Craigslist, flyers, door knockers, news paper ads etc, so the HO would be hiring an unknown.
> 
> ...


I've had customers leave everything from Rolex watches, expensive firearms and everything else in plain view. 

Yes, they really do trust me.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

Just to clarify - If it is exterior or unoccupied interior I generally work from 7-3. Sometimes I start earlier if it is going to be over 100 and try to finish up by 2 or 230. Some days I skip lunch, some days I go out to eat for an hour, some days I work til 6 or 7pm. Occupied interior I'll usually work from 8-330. 

But, living in a rural area its rare that I drive less than 30 minutes in each direction and most of the time its closer to 45. 

As far as the key thing, it doesn't really bother me. Some people just don't like strangers in their house. 

I did an interior 2 weeks ago that the people specifically asked to schedule it while they were out of town. I had worked for them before, so that may have factored into it. 

But then there's exterior jobs where people don't even want you in their restrooms while they're home.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> I've had customers leave everything from *Rolex watches, expensive firearms and everything else in plain view*.
> 
> Yes, they really do trust me.


And you can coun't how many of those people on one hand?

Sounds like you do work for the mafia. 

Any drugs in plain view?


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CJ-Newfield said:


> And you can coun't how many of those people on one hand?
> 
> Sounds like you do work for the mafia.
> 
> Any drugs in plain view?


Actually, it's all referral work and my reputation for not being a thief precedes me.

And yes, it really is as simple as that.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough and I seem to operate in similar markets and under similar conditions - lots of referral business. That said, I don't think I'd ever turn down a customer if they wanted to be around the entire time we were painting inside their home. Some people are just more cautious than others and if they are home most of the time it really isn't a problem for us - as long as they aren't a problem.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

RH said:


> Gough and I seem to operate in similar markets and under similar conditions - lots of referral business. That said, I don't think I'd ever turn down a customer if they wanted to be around the entire time we were painting inside their home. Some people are just more cautious than others and if they are home most of the time it really isn't a problem for us - as long as they aren't a problem.


Most of the time my customers are more than happy to come and go as they please while we are in there homes. Anything we can do to decrease the disruption of their daily lives is a positive. However, every once in a while we get one of these:






I call them helicopter-homeowners because they always are hovering near by. These folks met me at my truck when I pulled in the driveway, followed me back and forth as I unloaded, and just stood there and watched our every move. After I left, my crew told her they needed to mask off all the passages to the work area to protect adjacent rooms. Even that didn't work, as she tore a hole in the plastic, stuck her head through and stood an watched. The lead painter snapped the pic and sent it to me so I would know what he was putting up with. The good news is: we get to paint their exterior this spring! I don't plan on being out there very much.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Most of the time my customers are more than happy to come and go as they please while we are in there homes. Anything we can do to decrease the disruption of their daily lives is a positive. However, every once in a while we get on of these: I call them helicopter-homeowners because they always are hovering near by. These folks met me at my truck when I pulled in the driveway, followed me back and forth as I unloaded, and just stood there and watched our every move. After I left, my crew told her they needed to mask off all the passages to the work area to protect adjacent rooms. Even that didn't work, as she tore a hole in the plastic, stuck her head through and stood an watched. The lead painter snapped the pic and sent it to me so I would know what he was putting up with. The good news is: we get to paint their exterior this spring! I don't plan on being out there very much.


An accidental roller slip is in order... Accidentally paint her sweater and that will get rid of her.... At least for a few minutes


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Most of the time my customers are more than happy to come and go as they please while we are in there homes. Anything we can do to decrease the disruption of their daily lives is a positive. However, every once in a while we get on of these:
> View attachment 22639
> I call them helicopter-homeowners because they always are hovering near by. These folks met me at my truck when I pulled in the driveway, followed me back and forth as I unloaded, and just stood there and watched our every move. After I left, my crew told her they needed to mask off all the passages to the work area to protect adjacent rooms. Even that didn't work, as she tore a hole in the plastic, stuck her head through and stood an watched. The lead painter snapped the pic and sent it to me so I would know what he was putting up with. The good news is: we get to paint their exterior this spring! I don't plan on being out there very much.


lol - yeah, we've all had the pleasure of dealing with those types.

Did a bid last night where the HO followed me around the entire time chatting at me. I could hardly get my numbers figured out and written down he was so distracting -and for ME to feel someone is too chatty is really saying something. 

It came out during the meeting that they are going to be gone for four days at the end of the month so I leapt at the chance to suggest that would be a good time for us to do the work if they were amenable to the idea. They were - whew - especially since the project involves painting a stairwell and the only currently functioning bathroom is upstairs.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

wje said:


> An accidental roller slip is in order... Accidentally paint her sweater and that will get rid of her.... At least for a few minutes


I prefer the more subtle approach - a couple of bean burritos for lunch.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

As I posted earlier, it could just be a coincidence that we had a string of clients who insisted that they be home who also turned out to be helicopter clients. There's nothing like wrestling with painting a tiny powder room while the client stands in the doorway.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Gough said:


> As I posted earlier, it could just be a coincidence that we had a string of clients who insisted that they be home who also turned out to be helicopter clients. There's nothing like wrestling with painting a tiny powder room while the client stands in the doorway.


No - no - no… I just think you're the touchy prima-donna type.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

RH said:


> I prefer the more subtle approach - a couple of bean burritos for lunch.


For some guys, using that technique is _far_ from subtle.:yes:


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

slinger58 said:


> Actually, it's all referral work and my reputation for not being a thief precedes me.
> 
> And yes, it really is as simple as that.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Had a customer last summer who I did a phone estimate for - never met them before I was going to hang a liner one day and the finish paper the next. They were upfront that they wanted to be there when I was working. And I was upfront that usually people just show me how to lock up and leave but that I understood their uneasiness about leaving a stranger alone in their home.

We actually got along very well - lots of interests in common. The second day they were barely there. 


And to those "helicopter" customers, I tell them that paperhanging is NOT a spectator sport, but I'd be happy to charge accordingly. 99 % they get the message and leave me alone.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I believe there is a direct correlation of age and helicopter tendencies.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> I believe there is a direct correlation of age and helicopter tendencies.


The older you are the hoverer you get ?


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

How does a thread go from committing appropriate hours to a job, to referrals and helicopters?

So to get back on point with a real situational example of contractor NON! commitment, I offer the following:

*Exhibit A:*

Non painting related contract worker shows up at 11 AM. He's already behind schedule, but we're not pushing him. Circumstances out of his control contributed to the delay, but I made sure to instill confidence in his work. Everyone walks away towards their tasks with smiley faces. I return to the job site at 2PM, and they're gone for the day! This is after I paid $100.00 for overnight shipping of materials they needed, and that I received at 9AM this morning! 

*Exhibit B (also today):*

Contractor dispatch calls me at 7:30 informing me his guys are on some kind of emergency call (Yea right. Whatever) they show up at 9:30AM. I accommodate them, like I always do, and we all break for lunch at 11:30AM. I come back to our meeting place at 1PM, and the one guy there is sitting in his truck with one quarter of his burrito eaten. 

I'm like, "How long do you guys take for lunch". 

He's like, "If you want me to stop my lunch and start working, I will". ( like I'm a real asshole)

"Nah. Eat your lunch. I'll be back in a little bit". And then I leave and return about 25 minutes later. As I pull up, I see the second guy in his truck just beginning to eat a beef taco. Now I'm pissed.

"What schedule are you guys on!" I tell him.

Make a long story short, I end up being the ass (like Hetho's customer) simply for expecting a little effort for the price we're paying them.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

John,

You've really got your teeth sunk in this one, doncha? :thumbsup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> John,
> 
> You've really got your teeth sunk in this one, doncha? :thumbsup:


This thread hit a nerve. I think I'll go dull it now.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Mate, if you don't pay people by the hour, it's none of your business how long they stop for lunch and what their working hours are. If a client wants the least inconvenience possible, then they should set a deadline in the contract and do something useful with their life instead of checking on the workers every 5 minutes.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

An interesting read....

http://blog.bufferapp.com/optimal-w...work-every-day-the-science-of-mental-strength


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Heatho said:


> I've been a self-employed painter for 13 years and, because of diversification, only work 2-3 days(maybe 18-20 hours) per week and spend the rest of my time enjoying my kids and hobbies. I recently took on a job locally that i estimated would take 3 days to complete working 5-6 hours each of those days. It peeves the lady when I leave every day at 2:30 to go pick my kids up from school and be finished for the day. I know now that I should have told her before the job started, but would like some opinions anyway. Do we owe the people we work for an 8 hour day? One of the reasons I own my business is to set my own hours, have some freedom, etc.


G'day Heath

I don't know about owing anyone anything but just good old common courtesy never hurts

My Son started High School this year so now I have to different schools to drop off 

He finishes early so I have to pick him up at 3pm or 2.30pm sports day and I'm still getting used to it

Started new job last week interior job small two week job . 

Did I think I owe clients anything No as I easily can do 8hrs work in five or six : )

But courtesy different story I explained to the client that I will work half day Saturday to make up for lost time : ) so all good


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Actualy I did have a client question if I sell pies from my trailer : )

I thought Great idea : ) made some tonight as first game of Footy Tonight : ) Footy Season 

Go The Dragons


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

You're a man of leisure, Ben!

And Go the Warriors!


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Gough said:


> Sorry, I should have explained further. Not offended or thin skinned. It's just been our experience that it's another red flag that's often indicative of a client that's going to be more trouble than she's worth.


I've noticed the same.

People that feel a need to be home while painting is going on, are more apt to be PITA's.
It's funny, you sometimes won't see them all day, but get a drip of paint on the floor, and before you can grab your rag they magically appear.

..or you'll see them all day, start the final cleanup...and they magically disappear!




slinger58 said:


> I've had customers leave everything from Rolex watches, expensive firearms and everything else in plain view.
> 
> Yes, they really do trust me.


Last Summer I did a house while the couple were on vacation. On the kitchen table was a note and the keys to their BMW. "In case I needed to move it". (I didn't)



Ben,
Those look good... and they look like they'd give me heartburn. Do you keep Rolaids in the truck?


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Im curious if there is a direct correlation between:

short days and laziness.

Or short days and a hard time finding work

Or short days and a short banking account.


Im out the door by 7 typically and home by 5. Im not working a million hours a day. I also dont turn one job into a weeks work. Id rather do 15 of those same jobs some drag out in a week and go on vacation twice a year. Or build a pool in the back yard. Or pay off a 2012 Siena already, or pay down the house note, or build a play fort in the back yard for my kids. Or pay my taxes legitamately and not even flinch. 

Sometimes I feel like some people justify self employment with a licence to be lazy. To each their own, but i dont even feel sorry when these are the same people that complain that they can't find work when the weather turns or the "economy" is tough.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

I think there may also be a correlation between short days, laziness, and old age, Para.

Even now I'll work 40+ hours a week when I have to... but I don't care much for it.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

There may also be a direct correlation between people working long days, long weeks, and charging $20 an hour.

But I really haven't given it much thought.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

..and with that, I'm off.

I may work 7 hours instead of 6.. thanks a lot Para.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

The 3rd Coat said:


> Mate, if you don't pay people by the hour, it's none of your business how long they stop for lunch and what their working hours are. If a client wants the least inconvenience possible, then they should set a deadline in the contract and do something useful with their life instead of checking on the workers every 5 minutes.


The burrito and taco eater was billing us hours. But I get your point. I just sense we've become an entitlement society that believes we have the right _not_ to be told what to do, and deserving of the leisure reserved for people who've really earned it.

This is why the demographics of the labor force is rapidly changing in the US.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

benthepainter said:


> G'day Heath I don't know about owing anyone anything but just good old common courtesy never hurts My Son started High School this year so now I have to different schools to drop off He finishes early so I have to pick him up at 3pm or 2.30pm sports day and I'm still getting used to it Started new job last week interior job small two week job . Did I think I owe clients anything No as I easily can do 8hrs work in five or six : ) But courtesy different story I explained to the client that I will work half day Saturday to make up for lost time : ) so all good


I'm just like ya Ben. Thank you for that reply.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

It's certainly not laziness in this case. I'm just a guy that enjoys more than his fair share of free time. Time that my kids need(because they don't get it from their mom), and time spent hunting, fishing, working on my own home, etc. To me my free time is important, as my bills are always paid and food is always on the table. Everyone is different. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make that extra money to pay off the mortgage a year sooner, and also nothing wrong with using that extra free time to reel in a freezer full of fish with your family.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

Interesting thread.. makes you think. My first instinct is to look at three six hour days as two nine hour days to move more quickly to the next project. On the flip side, I admire the original poster. Balance in life, especially when it comes to spending time with children is more gratifying than chasing the almighty dollar. 

Do you owe an eight hour day? It's an arbitrary number. Why not four hours.. or ten? It sounds like Heatho has settled himself into a lifestyle he enjoys. Maybe he charges for 20 hrs what a technician that feels he has to be working every moment of daylight charges for 40 hrs. Maybe having expensive toys in the garage takes a backseat to seeing his kids smile when he arrives to pick them up from school. 

From a customer's perspective, if he told me up front that he needed to cut days "short" to be with his family but was skilled enough to do the job to my standards in a reasonable time frame, I would have no problem. With no communication and seeing him roll out mid early afternoon with no explanation. I would react exactly like the homeowner did. The "you don't owe the customer anything but a good paint job" attitude is BS.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I work a hard 6 hrs with a 15 min lunch and no breaks....at my pace anything over 6 is an accident waiting to happen ..... The notion that an 8 hr days somehow equates to a quality job is crap, to many variables.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> Interesting thread.. makes you think. My first instinct is to look at three six hour days as two nine hour days to move more quickly to the next project. On the flip side, I admire the original poster. Balance in life, especially when it comes to spending time with children is more gratifying than chasing the almighty dollar.
> 
> Do you owe an eight hour day? It's an arbitrary number. Why not four hours.. or ten? It sounds like Heatho has settled himself into a lifestyle he enjoys. Maybe he charges for 20 hrs what a technician that feels he has to be working every moment of daylight charges for 40 hrs. Maybe having expensive toys in the garage takes a backseat to seeing his kids smile when he arrives to pick them up from school.
> 
> From a customer's perspective, if he told me up front that he needed to cut days "short" to be with his family but was skilled enough to do the job to my standards in a reasonable time frame, I would have no problem. With no communication and seeing him roll out mid early afternoon with no explanation. I would react exactly like the homeowner did. The "you don't owe the customer anything but a good paint job" attitude is BS.


I see and appreciate what your saying Ken, If Heatho was upfront about his situation then the homeowner probably would not be upset with him leaving.

Heatho is also working by himself in a residential home, I think the homeowner may have chose a different contractor knowing that the time lapse of work was stretched over three days only to accomodate his lifestyle.

I personally value my customers time & personal space. I respect that they are inviting me into their home to work. Some customers daily routines, family, pets, are uprooted when your painting for them.

But again, in this situation communication is key, and Heatho didn't tell them his part time schedule hence why he had a disgruntled homowner.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

matt19422 said:


> I see and appreciate what your saying Ken, If Heatho was upfront about his situation then the homeowner probably would not be upset with him leaving. Heatho is also working by himself in a residential home, I think the homeowner may have chose a different contractor knowing that the time lapse of work was stretched over three days only to accomodate his lifestyle. I personally value my customers time & personal space. I respect that they are inviting me into their home to work. Some customers daily routines, family, pets, are uprooted when your painting for them. But again, in this situation communication is key, and Heatho didn't tell them his part time schedule hence why he had a disgruntled homowner.


In my town a school day is 9-3 ... Six hours a day teaching... 

Sure there is prep for classes and marking but I could compare that to us doing paint runs, estimates and billing.. 

Anyone care to rip on teachers for their laziness? 

Haha fair comparison? I don't know ...it was just a thought is all.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

wje said:


> In my town a school day is 9-3 ... Six hours a day teaching...
> 
> Sure there is prep for classes and marking but I could compare that to us doing paint runs, estimates and billing..
> 
> ...


What does this have to do with him not telling the homeowner that he wasn't putting in a full day?

The issue was communication.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

CApainter said:


> The burrito and taco eater was billing us hours. But I get your point. I just sense we've become an entitlement society that believes we have the right _not_ to be told what to do, and deserving of the leisure reserved for people who've really earned it.
> 
> This is why the demographics of the labor force is rapidly changing in the US.


OMG! I didn't mean to make my comment look so racist! Actually, the burrito and taco eaters, I was referring to, are both caucasian dudes.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

matt19422 said:


> What does this have to do with him not telling the homeowner that he wasn't putting in a full day? The issue was communication.


Nothin, I'm trollin... Been bored lately, carry on. 

Mods should start awarding these certificates in every thread that goes 5 pages


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't think its fair to assume that a self employed worker, who's taylored their obligations so that they can cut out early to spend time with his or her family, is anymore sensitive to the needs of their family then a worker who can't regularly cut out early. 

And is the purpose of self employment, really about having the liberty to set your own hours, exercise more leisure time during the day while everyone else is working, and not have to answer to anyone, but expect to be admired for your entrepreneurial freedom? I think the point I'm trying to make is, unless you are actually running a business and are not in the trenches laboring, how can any self employed "WORKER" not expect a homeowner, general contractor, or anyone else that's hired you, not to be concerned about a timely completion of their project?


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

CApainter said:


> I don't think its fair to assume that a self employed worker, who's taylored their obligations so that they can cut out early to spend time with his or her family, is anymore sensitive to the needs of their family then a worker who can't regularly cut out early.
> 
> And is the purpose of self employment, really about having the liberty to set your own hours, exercise more leisure time during the day while everyone else is working, and not have to answer to anyone, but expect to be admired for your entrepreneurial freedom? I think the point I'm trying to make is, unless you are actually running a business and are not in the trenches laboring, how can any self employed "WORKER" not expect a homeowner, general contractor, or anyone else that's hired you, not be concerned about a timely completion of their project?


Right, maybe that is why some succeed in this game and others do not.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Owing eight hours is really not the point of this thread any longer. Eight hours is an arbitrary number. It's about assumed responsibilty when you advertise yourself to consumers as a self employed service for hire. The priority to the homeowner/consumer will generally be the timely completion of their project, not ones personal needs.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

matt19422 said:


> Right, maybe that is why some succeed in this game and others do not.


Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

wje said:


> Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


Hey Now! Sometimes if you put in a regular days work, you can get a 3 day job done in 2 and have a day off:yes:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

in six hours, I produce what I've seen others do in eight. I don't stop to chit chat, fiddle with my boom box, yap on my iToy, get another "something" out of my van, take a dump, have a snack, and all the other excuses I've seen for not working. I keep working. 

Who owes what to whom ?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

wje said:


> Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


lol - as per the customer's request, we don't start until 9:30 on our current job - the other side of the coin in this discussion I guess. We were also aware of this condition going in and it's far better than having young children and two dogs under foot all day.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

To me, there's another way to look at the entitlement question that was raised earlier. It is the sense that some clients have that, since they are paying you, you are now "the help" and can be treated accordingly. When we got to the point where we could do so, those were the first clients that we "fired".


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> lol - as per the customer's request, we don't start until 9:30 on our current job - the other side of the coin in this discussion I guess. We were also aware of this condition going in and it's far better than having young children and two dogs under foot all day.


This is all part of the reality in residential re-paints. I think it all comes down to respect, communication, and balance. There are other painting opportunities that dont't require that level of client engagement, so it's not for everybody.

For some of us, it's a far better gig than spraying Q-deck during the third shift at Wally World...lol.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

It's funny on paint talk you know... A guy is booked out for months, working 7 days a week and he's told to raise his prices and do less work profiting more and working less making easier money. He is obviously working too cheap and doesn't know how to value his time 

A guy comes on saying he only needs to work 3 days a week to make the living he needs to by doing lucrative work making a decent living. He has his priorities in line and knows where his values in life lie.He works around his schedule to enjoy his life and family time. Now that is considered lazy, inconsiderate, unprofessional etc. 

If you were a beginner trying to find your way in the painting biz, you would be dizzy reading all the different points of view at this place. 

We need to change the slogan around here

"Paint Talk...the place you go to never win"


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I think the interesting thing about this thread, and Paint Talk in general, is that the membership is made up primarily of self employed painters, with a couple of hand full of members that are actually running businesses. So to me, there's no surprise that the attitude here is in favor of the perks and social acceptance related to self employment, rather then accommodation of the homeowner as "the help", which in essence, we all are.

I believe that the last twenty years of the technological boom, has given birth to the desk top entrepreneurs of varying degrees. From the highest level of internet commerce and social exchangers, down to the unemployed painter who has discovered his creative aptitude for computer graphics and web design, thus launching the self employed into entrepreneurial status.

It's no wonder we have guys building ballistic grade pot hooks in their garage, and comparing their entrepreneurial start up to that of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

wje said:


> Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


 
At least I'm at the job site.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

wje said:


> Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


I'm sitting in my recliner. 

Just finished e-filing my taxes for last year. Just have to put the check in the mail, sign a few state pages and mail them with their check and I'll probably spend the rest of the day doing some business errands I need to run. 

I don't get paid a dime for any of it (technically) so what customer do I owe this 8 hours to?

If I wasn't self employed I'd probably be wearing pants, and I'd only be 2.5 hours into my "real" work day.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

wje said:


> Shouldn't everyone be working right now? Doesn't look like any of us are putting in an honest days work this morning!!!!


Staring out the window wondering when temps are going above 30 degrees.

On the bright side I looked at a hospital yesterday which is shaping up to be a thirty thousand plus job. Now all I have to do is get it signed and I'm done for the week.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

wje said:


> In my town a school day is 9-3 ... Six hours a day teaching... Sure there is prep for classes and marking but I could compare that to us doing paint runs, estimates and billing.. Anyone care to rip on teachers for their laziness? Haha fair comparison? I don't know ...it was just a thought is all.


My wife is a teacher by trade. She is inactive since we had ours.....
But. When she was teaching, man, she did a lot of work in her off hours! Marking papers,getting projects ready and whatever. And besides the time she spent she'd also buy stuff for use in her class! I always didn't like it that she spent so much off the clock time but you couldn't tell her nothing.

Just putting a plug in for the teachers is all. I seen it and I know and While I know I have a outstanding old lady I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of them teachers who go above and beyond and you just don't see it is all.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

What you "owe" the customer is consideration and communication. I remember a 6 day stretch when I, myself, had 9 different jobs going on. Some were two day, some three and four, and a couple five and six. Every one of those jobs I explained to the customer why I would be there for only short periods - mainly dry times on mud, textures, and finishes. Not one had a problem with it and all the jobs were profitable. The one thing I did learn was that I'd try never to have a schedule like that again. lol


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Oden said:


> My wife is a teacher by trade. She is inactive since we had ours..... But. When she was teaching, man, she did a lot of work in her off hours! Marking papers,getting projects ready and whatever. And besides the time she spent she'd also buy stuff for use in her class! I always didn't like it that she spent so much off the clock time but you couldn't tell her nothing. Just putting a plug in for the teachers is all. I seen it and I know and While I know I have a outstanding old lady I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of them teachers who go above and beyond and you just don't see it is all.


Thank you for making my point.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> <<snip>>
> 
> being described as "the help", which in essence, we all are.
> 
> <<snip>>


I think there is a world of difference between being described as "the help" and be treated like it. You're right that we are in a sense, but we're also skilled tradespersons, professionals, or business owners.

I guess a lot of this discussion comes down to developing mutual respect and understanding between client and contactor.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

After finally reading through most of this thread I realize many will disagree with me when I say that when I'm under contract with a customer I do think of them as my employer - that's why they call this a "service" trade. When I do need to cut out early for the day I always try and inform the HO "when" and usually "why" that will be. Even then I often feel guilty for doing so.

With that said, my usual experience is that the HO and I are more like partners with the common goal of getting the job done properly and in a timely manner. I've actually had very few issues with anyone ever being unhappy with the schedules we set and the hours we devote to the job.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

RH said:


> After finally reading through most of this thread I realize many will disagree with me when I say that when I'm under contract with a customer I do think of them as my employer - that's why they call this a "service" trade. When I do need to cut out early for the day I always try and inform the HO "when" and usually "why" that will be. Even then I often feel guilty for doing so. With that said, my usual experience is that the HO and I are more like partners with the common goal of getting the job done properly and in a timely manner. I've actually had very few issues with anyone ever being unhappy with the schedules we set and the hours we devote to the job.


. In transitioning from a self-employed mechanic to a business owner, I see my key rolls as a communicator and a concierge. I try to make the homeowner feel comfortable and confident that my crew completely understands their needs and can work within their parameters. That is why I thought early on that the main point of this tread is the consequence of poor communication.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> I think there is a world of difference between being described as "the help" and be treated like it. You're right that we are in a sense, but we're also skilled tradespersons, professionals, or business owners.
> 
> I guess a lot of this discussion comes down to developing mutual respect and understanding between client and contactor.


Maybe an asterick next to a contractor's license would help communicate to the consumer, whether a contractor has the appropriate resources to expedite their project. This way, homeowners who hire self employed solo operators, and who are not privy to the long hours required of contractors beyond the job site, would at least understand why they had to leave the job site early.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> . In transitioning from a self-employed mechanic to a business owner, I see my key rolls as a communicator and a concierge. I try to make the homeowner feel comfortable and confident that my crew completely understands their needs and can work within their parameters. That is why I thought early on that the main point of this tread is the consequence of poor communication.


EPC,

I have a question for you. On a week long job, do you expect your workers to be on a job site for an approximate length of time between daily start up and clean up?


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

RH said:


> After finally reading through most of this thread I realize many will disagree with me when I say that when *I'm under contract with a customer I do think of them as my employe*r - that's why they call this a "service" trade. When I do need to cut out early for the day I always try and inform the HO "when" and usually "why" that will be. Even then I often feel guilty for doing so.
> 
> With that said, my usual experience is that the HO and I are more like partners with the common goal of getting the job done properly and in a timely manner. I've actually had very few issues with anyone ever being unhappy with the schedules we set and the hours we devote to the job.


employers supply equipment, provide materials, don't ask for your advice, tell you how to do your work, tell you when you can take a break, cover you with worker comp, pay into your unemployment, deduct taxes from your earnings and pay you an hourly wage. employers don't require you to be state licensed and carry your own insurance. also, employees are not under contract. An employee never puts a warrenty on their labor - ever.

If by chance you have a dissatisfied customer, they can refuse to pay you the balance of the job, and your only recourse is to take them to court, and you may end up losing the case. whereas, a dissatisfied employer "by law" has to pay you for every hour you worked. 

I won't even list the requirements of running a small business, I just don't have the time... 

Do you still consider yourself to be employed by the customer? :blink:


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Owing eight hours is really not the point of this thread any longer. Eight hours is an arbitrary number. It's about assumed responsibilty when you advertise yourself to consumers as a self employed service for hire. The priority to the homeowner/consumer will generally be the timely completion of their project, not ones personal needs.


I agree. But those things can coexist. You have to play by the rules and your commitments just like you do if collecting a check from a desk job. The difference is, being a business owner, you make the rules. As long as both parties are good with the terms then the OP's way of doing business is what works for him. I don't agree with it because I am conned by the rat race into thinking every waking hour has to be spent serving my work. the older I get, the more I value my time. That's why I see the potential serenity in setting a slower pace. 

Customer communication and respect is still the core of this thread and the OP's issue. Done well it is what sets apart one painter (or whatever) from another.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> At least I'm at the job site.



now there you go, on site and on the internet. 

Is that what you mean by entitlement  :whistling2: :jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

OK, let's divert this a wee bit.

When you leave the premises, do you inform the HO that you are leaving, or just leave.

Myself? If they are home I will seek them out and let them know I am leaving. If they are not home, I'll leave a note. 

IMO, all part of communication.

OH, also in the morning, if I have been told just to walk in and not knock, I will announce my arrival with a "cheerful" Good Morning


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PressurePros said:


> I agree. But those things can coexist. You have to play by the rules and your commitments just like you do if collecting a check from a desk job. The difference is, being a business owner, you make the rules. As long as both parties are good with the terms then the OP's way of doing business is what works for him. I don't agree with it because I am conned by the rat race into thinking every waking hour has to be spent serving my work. the older I get, the more I value my time. That's why I see the potential serenity in setting a slower pace.
> 
> Customer communication and respect is still the core of this thread and the OP's issue. Done well it is what sets apart one painter (or whatever) from another.


Sure, if the consumer accepts the conditions determined by the service provider, in this case Hetho's rules, then the consumer should also reserve their potential to complain about those conditions. But, the OP's customer apparently didn't accept his conditions. Rather, she was under the impression, like most consumers are, that every effort would be made, by the contractor, to expedite the completion of their project with all of the the resources available to them. This includes time. And as far as I know, most people in the building trades operate under this model.

Now, I can understand a deviation from the normal project model if the highest level of craftsmanship was required. Then, you've got to give the benefit of the doubt to the craftsmen given their propensity for aloofness and a prima donna nature. Like paper hangers for example..


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Sure, if the consumer accepts the conditions determined by the service provider, in this case Hetho's rules, then the consumer should also reserve their potential to complain about those conditions. But, the OP's customer apparently didn't accept his conditions. Rather, she was under the impression, like most consumers are, that every effort would be made, by the contractor, to expedite the completion of their project with all of the the resources available to them. And as far as I know, most people in the building trades operate under this model.
> 
> Now, I can understand a deviation from the normal project model if the highest level of craftsmanship was required. Then, you've got to give the benefit of the doubt to the craftsmen given their propensity for aloofness and a prima donna nature. Like paper hangers for example..[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> CApainter said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, if the consumer accepts the conditions determined by the service provider, in this case Hetho's rules, then the consumer should also reserve their potential to complain about those conditions. But, the OP's customer apparently didn't accept his conditions. Rather, she was under the impression, like most consumers are, that every effort would be made, by the contractor, to expedite the completion of their project with all of the the resources available to them. And as far as I know, most people in the building trades operate under this model.
> ...


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

am i the only one that discusses this with HO BEFORE job starts?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

CApainter said:


> EPC, I have a question for you. On a week long job, do you expect your workers to be on a job site for an approximate length of time between daily start up and clean up?


Under normal circumstances, I expect my employees to work 40 hours a week, including setup and clean up. During the busy season that goes up to <>50 hours a week. To me, hours are hours, wether it be setup, production, or cleanup. They are all necessary and all related to production.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)




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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

PressurePros said:


> Staring out the window wondering when temps are going above 30 degrees.
> 
> On the bright side I looked at a hospital yesterday which is shaping up to be a thirty thousand plus job. Now all I have to do is get it signed and I'm done for the week.


All week I thought have I moved to Alaska and just don't know it?? Been very cold but spring is in the air:thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> Sorry chrisn. That spit ball was supposed to hit Bill.


Nah, don't go be hanging no primma donna medalion on me. It IS a valid generalization, but as with all generalizations, they just don't hold too much widespread truth, like drunken painters


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> Under normal circumstances, I expect my employees to work 40 hours a week, including setup and clean up. During the busy season that goes up to <>50 hours a week. To me, hours are hours, wether it be setup, production, or cleanup. They are all necessary and all related to production.


I would expect most BUISNESS OWNERS in the construction trades to operate under this model. 

Thank you very much EPC!



I rest my case.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> Nah, don't go be hanging no primma donna medalion on me. It IS a valid generalization, but as with all generalizations, they just don't hold too much widespread truth, like drunken painters


You really don't strike me as a primma donna Bill. Just messing with you.

BTW, I don't have a smart phone. So, when I use the computer, it's usually on break or the end of the day...or when I'm reading emails,...or when I need something at the shop..and:blink:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

John,

When I wear a beret and screech in a french accent that I'm an ARTISTE and I don't need this, then you'll know I've gone over to the dark side.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> John,
> 
> When I wear a beret and screech in a french accent that I'm an ARTISTE and I don't need this, then you'll know I've gone over to the dark side.


But he's not wearing white?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

CApainter said:


> I would expect most BUISNESS OWNERS in the construction trades to operate under this model. Thank you very much EPC! I rest my case.


 No argument here. Fortunately, most of the guys on my crew want to work full time or over time hours. It would be nice not to pay overtime and just hire more guys when needed. However, I like my crew, fear rapid growth, and overtime helps them out during the summer. In addition, I can usually factor it into the price during the busy season. But I guess that's a topic for another thread.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> But he's not wearing white?


I said the DARK side :thumbsup:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> No argument here. Fortunately, most of the guys on my crew want to work full time or over time hours. It would be nice not to pay overtime and just hire more guys when needed. However, I like my crew, fear rapid growth, and overtime helps them out during the summer. In addition, I can usually factor it into the price during the busy season. But I guess that's a topic for another thread.



I gotta hand it to you for using the "O" word (overtime). I think the last time the law requiring it was mentioned, the reply was "That's never going to happen!" I'll let the author of the reply remain anonymous.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Gough said:


> I gotta hand it to you for using the "O" word (overtime). I think the last time the law requiring it was mentioned, the reply was "That's never going to happen!" I'll let the author of the reply remain anonymous.


He should remain anonymous wen he says that kinda stuff on the interweb. Really.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

Very good replies. Admittedly, I should have communicated better with the HO. It didn't turn out to be a big deal and a lesson was learned. Before the start of the job, I informed the HO that it would have it completed in 3 days max and she accepted that and scheduled carpet cleaning for the following day. I suppose I should have also mentioned my approximate daily hours. Anyway... I finished the job in 2 days. 2 - 6 hour days. Happy customer and wiser me.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Gough said:


> I gotta hand it to you for using the "O" word (overtime). I think the last time the law requiring it was mentioned, the reply was "That's never going to happen!" I'll let the author of the reply remain anonymous.


Yeah it's good to see. Glad to know im not the only guy paying time and a half. Sometimes I wonder as many guys I know don't.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

So there you go. If you want to successfully compete as a self employed tradesman in the building, construction, and renovation market, ( assuming your significant other isn't carrying the financial responsibilities) committing reasonable hours to a job in the interest of expediency, is the norm, and anything less is just a hobby.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Heatho said:


> Very good replies. Admittedly, I should have communicated better with the HO. It didn't turn out to be a big deal and a lesson was learned. Before the start of the job, I informed the HO that it would have it completed in 3 days max and she accepted that and scheduled carpet cleaning for the following day. I suppose I should have also mentioned my approximate daily hours. Anyway... I finished the job in 2 days. 2 - 6 hour days. Happy customer and wiser me.


Heatho,

I wouldn't even be concerned with your situation given that you are a part time painter. It's not like you're really committed to running a paint contracting company. I'd reserve the homeowner's complaints for the actual paint company owners who abide by the dynamics of the construction industry model that has driven the building trade for centuries. I actually aspire to be more leisure like you, but in my retirement age.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Heatho, I wouldn't even be concerned with your situation given that you are a part time painter. It's not like you're really committed to running a paint contracting company. I'd reserve the homeowner's complaints for the actual paint company owners who abide by the dynamics of the construction industry model that has driven the building trade for centuries. I actually aspire to be more leisure like you, but in my retirement age.


I appreciate that. Paint contracting company? No I'm really not interested anymore. I did that for years when I lived in Little Rock. Now I'm just a small-time one man show that has relocated from the big city to my home town in rural north Arkansas to live the "good life". It's good that we can all have a healthy discussion and respect others even though we may not totally agree.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

Salesman vs tradesman.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> anything less is just a hobby.


Great. I have the crappiest hobby in the world.

PT sure can be depressing sometimes.


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## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

I am the foreman for a small (5-9 guy) company, and we try to get the job done efficiently, BUT after 27 years in the trade, there are two things we always do, which we see many contractors NOT doing. 1) we set the expectation in the beginning, and again each day. Communication with your client is key, whether it's one guy or many. So many contractors we work around don't do that. They come and go randomly, and do not meet the expectations and deadlines they promise to. It's completely unprofessional, but in our experience, it is the norm. Which is unfortunate to say the least. That being said, the other thing we typically DON'T DO is work non-stop fast - we focus on quality, with a sub focus on quantity. We pace ourselves, and move steady, but another observation is seeing contractors rushing through their work, which translates in our mind as hack work. Many times we have clients who vent to us how rushed the other guys are, and you can almost always see the lack of quality and attention to detail in their work. Most people understand that regardless of a work schedule, life happens, and sometimes gets in the way of an 8 or more hour work day. Some don't, and they are just unreasonable. That being said, when we need to, we work whatever hours are necessary to meet the expectations we have set. That means, some days we stay late, or go in a lot earlier, or both. We have worked 5-6 hours one day, and 12-15 other days, as needed. Keeping the client happy is the goal, and 99.9% of the time, we achieve that. If a situation arises with concerns, or any particular problem, solve it as best you can, as calmly and reasonably as possible. Simple good business strategy...


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PaintPerfect said:


> I am the foreman for a small (5-9 guy) company, and we try to get the job done efficiently, BUT after 27 years in the trade, there are two things we always do, which we see many contractors NOT doing. 1) we set the expectation in the beginning, and again each day. Communication with your client is key, whether it's one guy or many. So many contractors we work around don't do that. They come and go randomly, and do not meet the expectations and deadlines they promise to. It's completely unprofessional, but in our experience, it is the norm. Which is unfortunate to say the least. That being said, the other thing we typically DON'T DO is work non-stop fast - we focus on quality, with a sub focus on quantity. We pace ourselves, and move steady, but another observation is seeing contractors rushing through their work, which translates in our mind as hack work. Many times we have clients who vent to us how rushed the other guys are, and you can almost always see the lack of quality and attention to detail in their work. Most people understand that regardless of a work schedule, life happens, and sometimes gets in the way of an 8 or more hour work day. Some don't, and they are just unreasonable. That being said, when we need to, we work whatever hours are necessary to meet the expectations we have set. That means, some days we stay late, or go in a lot earlier, or both. We have worked 5-6 hours one day, and 12-15 other days, as needed. Keeping the client happy is the goal, and 99.9% of the time, we achieve that. If a situation arises with concerns, or any particular problem, solve it as best you can, as calmly and reasonably as possible. Simple good business strategy...


This thread would've never passed 3 pages had PaintPerfect posted his excellent reply earlier.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

CApainter said:


> This thread would've never passed 3 pages had PaintPerfect posted his excellent reply earlier.


I think he said exactly what most of us have been saying.. albeit it more eloquently. Communication. 

The solution to this issue is to hire people. That's not for everyone.

The other option is to keep to small jobs. The OP would have his azz handed to him if he cut out early on a GC. Everything else admonishing this guy for not working dawn til dusk is just ego. Its his business and how he conducts it is between himself and his customers.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> I think he said exactly what most of us have been saying.. albeit it more eloquently.


He just must be better at communicating than the rest of us !!


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

wje said:


> He just must be better at communicating than the rest of us !!



Whachew mean by dat?


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

CApainter said:


> This thread would've never passed 3 pages had PaintPerfect posted his excellent reply earlier.


Agree he Painted a Perfect picture !


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

About a year ago I got a call from a builder (referral from drywall comp). After talking to him for a while he told me he had been using the same painter for years and was growing tired of the painter leaving early on a regular basis. I now do all of his painting.

:thumbup::clap::w00t:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

paintball head said:


> About a year ago I got a call from a builder (referral from drywall comp). After talking to him for a while he told me he had been using the same painter for years and was growing tired of the painter leaving early on a regular basis. I now do all of his painting. :thumbup::clap::w00t:


I'm just taking and making note is all. Not at all criticizing just taking note. Except for that you got the work now I get that. But that position at that shop then became less of a good gig.

We are our own worst enemies.

Somebody will one upmanship you and it will be even less of a good gig.

And so on and so on till it ain't even worth doing....

That's the way it works


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

At the start of my current job (referral work, full exterior with colour changes and wood repairs), I told the client that I can be pretty random with my days because I get smaller jobs that I need to do regularly. And also, depends how I feel when I wake up in the morning. I said hope he doesn't mind. He said I do whatever days/hours suit me, beats letting someone else do the job.
The previous client, in the same street, when she left me online feedback, she specifically stated that "he was delightful to have around". She didn't say "he finished as fast as possible, which was good cos his presence inconvenienced us".

I've seen some painters advertise themselves as being in-and-out as fast as possible, trying to use that as a competiive edge. These people don't get it. If you enjoy what you do, you will take as long as it takes to do a proud job and you'll work the kind of hours that allow you to keep enjoying it.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> This thread would've never passed 3 pages had PaintPerfect posted his excellent reply earlier.


But what else would we have done to pass the time..... put paint on the walls and then leave early? :jester:


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Yes, it's become a long thread but a good one IMO. Many of us can related to the subject of balancing hours on the job, hours doing the business end of things, and our "off duty" lives.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Oden said:


> I'm just taking and making note is all. Not at all criticizing just taking note. Except for that you got the work now I get that. But that position at that shop then became less of a good gig.
> 
> We are our own worst enemies.
> 
> ...


You are lumping the situation I described in with your "it". Which I take to mean is some generalization or pre-conceived notion you have about a scenario that you have made about certain situations but really have NO way of knowing applies to mine.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> Yes, it's become a long thread but a good one IMO. Many of us can related to the subject of balancing hours on the job, hours doing the business end of things, and our "off duty" lives.


This was a good thread. And at the end of the day, I get the sense that the solo operators like RH, The 3rd Coat, Heatho, and Ben The Painter, really do enjoy what they're doing and like to share their painting (_or cooking in Ben's case_) experience and knowledge with the homeowner, or anyone else interested in listening. More then I envy their liberty for leisure time, I envy their unhurried approach to painting. I'd probably enjoy my job more if I slowed down a little.

I've made progress in that direction by spending more time than I normally would, organizing myself. I find being organized is very calming for a hurried person like myself.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I've made progress in that direction by spending more time than I normally would, organizing myself. I find being organized is very calming for a hurried person like myself.


OH BELIEVE ME, being steadfast and organized is a LOT quicker than being hurried and disorganized.

Awhile ago I made an observation that being in a rush actually takes longer. 

I am NOT naturally an organized person, but when I succeed on the job being so, I get a lot more done in fewer hours with less effort.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

Did I read in the Terms and Conditions that you get a free "Paint Talk" t-shirt if your thread reaches 200 comments? Lol


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Heatho said:


> Did I read in the Terms and Conditions that you get a free "Paint Talk" t-shirt if your thread reaches 200 comments? Lol


Used to, but the mods sold them all to the "Bag-of-Rags" company to pay for a staff party. Sorry.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

I still have mine, but it shrunk when it got wet......


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

RCP said:


> I still have mine, but it shrunk when it got wet......


Only 632 to go! :brows:


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

CApainter said:


> This was a good thread. And at the end of the day, I get the sense that the solo operators like RH, The 3rd Coat, Heatho, and Ben The Painter, really do enjoy what they're doing and like to share their painting (or cooking in Ben's case) experience and knowledge with the homeowner, or anyone else interested in listening. More then I envy their liberty for leisure time, I envy their unhurried approach to painting. I'd probably enjoy my job more if I slowed down a little. I've made progress in that direction by spending more time than I normally would, organizing myself. I find being organized is very calming for a hurried person like myself.


Slowed down lol I just finished a 2 week job 
Not one day stopping for smoko or lunch sweating my arse off start at 8am and packed up each day around 2.30 : ) I'm talking full pace one thing down straight into the next 

I may look like a Man of leisure lol but I could honestly say when I'm moving not many painters could keep up 

leisure time what's that lol 

this is the first job since my son started high school this year that I've had to be able to drop him off and pick him up 

As he finishes earlier and my daughter is still in primary and they have after school care which used to be great having both kids in as I could stay back a little latter at work 

So I smashed this 2 week job : )

Next job I won't be missing out on lunch time to bust out my table and chair : )


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Actualy next job I'm busting out my Gas Cooker 
And even my guitar and My Mattress for a sleep


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## Brian C (Oct 8, 2011)

wait till you hit your fifties Ben. Aching bones, bad backs, sore knees and lost enthusiasm await you for pushing that hard, brother.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Brian C said:


> wait till you hit your fifties Ben. Aching bones, bad backs, sore knees and lost enthusiasm await you for pushing that hard, brother.


 G'day Brian Mate it's unlike me lol but until my Son can get to high school by himself he is just still a little young maybe around June I think he can walk to school Until then if I have to put the foot down I will : ) And I already ache lol Next job is a four week interior 10minutes from home so my lunch room will be set : ) Tomorrow's job I have my mattress ready lol


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Anxiously waiting for lunch pictures ! :chef:


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Spending more time making the same money equals a pay cut....


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Oden said:


> Spending more time making the same money equals a pay cut....


Didn't we all just have a group hug? I would recommend closing this thing down before a reply fans these warm embers.:jester:


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I would recommend closing this thing down


I second that.

MY GD feelings have been hurt enough.

Bottom line...we're all going to die eventually, and no one will care how many times we went home early.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Didn't we all just have a group hug? I would recommend closing this thing down before a reply fans these warm embers.:jester:


What? And risk being labeled "little CA clones"? No way. :no:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

RH said:


> What? And risk being labeled "little CA clones"? No way. :no:


Just say Bill recommended it.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Sorry Guys for letting you guys think I work to hard that was last two weeks job 

Back to normal now


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

RCP said:


> I still have mine, but it shrunk when it got wet......


DAMN, 

I do not know WHAT has happened to PaintTalk.com. Not even three months ago THAT post would have enlisted not only TWICE the number of thanks but at least three pleas for pictures and five posts with coconut pix


  :blink:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

Well after reading this thread I see John has some hostility to business owners not putting in a solid 8hr days on the wall. The reality is though that there are so many hours not on the wall that add up as business hours. And there are hours off the wall at home that take away from the fishing and family time the op needed. The bottom line is that there are many unseen hours that are not spent spreading paint but are still important and it could be seen as lazy or as a entrepreneurial dream to some but in reality it is just part of keeping the ducks in a row. 

To the op. It sounds like you are on schedule and maybe in future just mention that you have other obligations and you may have to leave at 2:30 on some days to your customers so they they can expect it.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

Nobody's mentioned having to work when you're sick yet either.

ok

*washing my hands of this thread*


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## squid (Dec 25, 2012)

It's easy to be the boss when you're not the boss.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Workaholic said:


> Well after reading this thread I see John has some hostility to business owners not putting in a solid 8hr days on the wall. The reality is though that there are so many hours not on the wall that add up as business hours. And there are hours off the wall at home that take away from the fishing and family time the op needed. The bottom line is that there are many unseen hours that are not spent spreading paint but are still important and it could be seen as lazy or as a entrepreneurial dream to some but in reality it is just part of keeping the ducks in a row. To the op. It sounds like you are on schedule and maybe in future just mention that you have other obligations and you may have to leave at 2:30 on some days to your customers so they they can expect it.


Beimg a employee too I know I'd much rather 8 and skate then deal with the other krap a owner/operator would have too. Not a doubt in my mind either.

And don't tell anyone. I get some early quits too


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Well since Sean stoked the fires, I might as well warm my hands up. 

-This thread began with a solo self employed poster describing his customer's concern about him leaving early from the job site, and asked for feed back in regards to providing a homeowner a full day's worth of service (somewhere between 5-8 hrs) on the job site.

-My argument was that a consumer has every right to expect a full day's worth of work from the contractor they've hired. Particularly painting. It is also not the homeowner's obligation to accommodate a self employed contractor's entrepreneurial free will to come and go as they please, without demonstrating some concern about the expedient completion of their project. Especially, when the solo self employed contractor advertises, and competes for his service among others in his industry, who actually run their businesses in a manner that allows _them_ the free will to come and go as _they_ please while not compromising the productivity of their customers project.

-I am really pro businessman, and I understand start ups don't necessarily have the resources to put in a full days worth of work given the estimating, golfing, and book work, without compromising productivity at the job site. However, I think this should be brought to the attention of the consumer immediately. Especially, when the homeowner has likely hired a solo self employed painter based on the level of a professional looking web site, or presentation, only to discover they've ended up with a good natured, but casual one man show, who randomly cuts out early due to personal obligations, and leisure time requirements expected by all "business owners".

-Bottom line is, its not fair for a homeowner to be subjected to the entrepreneurial cliches from a self employed and under resourced painter.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> Well since Sean stoked the fires, I might as well warm my hands up.
> 
> -This thread began with a solo self employed poster describing his customer's concern about him leaving early from the job site, and asked for feed back in regards to providing a homeowner a full day's worth of service (somewhere between 5-8 hrs) on the job site.
> 
> ...


Ayuh.
Unless clearly communicated and accepted by the client prior to the start of work.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

CApainter said:


> Well since Sean stoked the fires, I might as well warm my hands up.
> 
> -This thread began with a solo self employed poster describing his customer's concern about him leaving early from the job site, and asked for feed back in regards to providing a homeowner a full day's worth of service (somewhere between 5-8 hrs) on the job site.
> 
> ...




couldn't all of that be reversed as well?.........given today's ''hot coco an slippers'' mentality I would expect a leisurely approach to be more acceptable.


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## The 3rd Coat (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm sure a lot of us solos could easily hire some resources to keep production going on our jobs. It would allow us to be more competitive with our pricing and increase our turnover. But we prefer to do everything with our own two hands, to ensure quality. We choose to be tradesmen rather than salesmen. Contrary to the OP, I've never met a client who expressed any concern about my hours/days on site. Of course like I said before, I understand that interior jobs always are a priority, because those are more of a nuisance for the client.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

Workaholic said:


> Well after reading this thread I see John has some hostility to business owners not putting in a solid 8hr days on the wall.


not putting in a solid 8hr days on the wall and 5-6 hour days are two different things. When you are doing work for a customer, you owe it to them to make the inconvenience minimal. 


Workaholic said:


> The reality is though that there are so many hours not on the wall that add up as business hours. And there are hours off the wall at home that take away from the fishing and family time the op needed.


If a business owner needs time for family and fun times, he/she can do that in-between jobs. When a job is complete, take two / three days off before starting a new project. 


Workaholic said:


> The bottom line is that there are many unseen hours that are not spent spreading paint but are still important and it could be seen as lazy or as a entrepreneurial dream to some but in reality it is just part of keeping the ducks in a row.


When you run your own business, it is a 24 hours a day job. As a generalized statement, all of the unseen hours should not take away from the timely completion of the customers job. Estimates, paperwork etc, should be done in the evenings.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

CJ-Newfield said:


> When you run your own business, it is a 24 hours a day job. As a generalized statement, all of the unseen hours should not take away from the timely completion of the customers job. Estimates, paperwork etc, should be done in the evenings.


 No it isn't. Most unhappy busniness owners treat it as a 24/7 job. I do not answer my phone at night or on Sundays. I do paperwork, taxes, banking etc during the day when I have time. I make time for them, or I know I will be working late into the night.

Yes some times an estimate has to be done during the evening, but the majority of my out of the bucket activity takes place during normal business hours, just like most business" operate.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Monstertruck said:


> Ayuh.
> Unless clearly communicated and accepted by the client prior to the start of work.


As a homeowner, a solo self employed painter would have to be exceptional and reasonably priced before I agreed to such a liberal schedule. I really don't believe there's that large of a gap in exceptionability from one painter to the next for me to agree to such terms and conditions. I'll just say "Next".



Ole34 said:


> couldn't all of that be reversed as well?.........given today's ''hot coco an slippers'' mentality I would expect a leisurely approach to be more acceptable.


Double standards do apply when someone's paying for a service. Even the pot smoking homeowner probably wouldn't want a pot smoking painter.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> As a homeowner, a solo self employed painter would have to be exceptional and reasonably priced before I agreed to a such a liberal schedule. I really don't believe there's that large of a gab in exceptionability from one painter to the next, for me to agree to such terms and conditions. I'll just say "Next".


And you might not be in his market segment either, so it all works out just fine, right?

It seems that there are regions and portions of local markets where that is acceptable.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

Is there a way for the OP to end a thread? Lol

All the opinions are greatly appreciated. I've learned more than I intended to from reading the replies.


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

wje said:


> *No it isn't. Most unhappy busniness owners treat it as a 24/7 job.* I do not answer my phone at night or on Sundays. I do paperwork, taxes, banking etc during the day when I have time. I make time for them, or I know I will be working late into the night.
> 
> Yes some times an estimate has to be done during the evening, but the majority of my out of the bucket activity takes place during normal business hours, just like most business" operate.


Stress, Headache, 24/7. If you have staff that can carry some of the weight, you are correct. If you are a solo act, Stress, Headache, 24/7.
Unless you rely on meds.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

CJ-Newfield said:


> Stress, Headache, 24/7. If you have staff that can carry some of the weight, you are correct. If you are a solo act, Stress, Headache, 24/7.
> Unless you rely on meds.


 There are many threads on this site talking about how to balance out personal life and maintaining a business. I suggest you look for them if you plan on venturing out on your own.

You can run your business or it can run you. 

It is what you make of it.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

I love working 7 days a week...I would never want to have to work 7 days a week


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

CApainter said:


> *As a homeowner, a solo self employed painter would have to be exceptional and reasonably priced before I agreed to a such a liberal schedule*. I really don't believe there's that large of a gab in exceptionability from one painter to the next, for me to agree to such terms and conditions. I'll just say "Next".
> 
> 
> 
> Double standards do apply when someone's paying for a service. Even the pot smoking homeowner probably wouldn't want a pot smoking painter.


I agree.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> And you might not be in his market segment either, so it all works out just fine, right?
> 
> It seems that there are regions and portions of local markets where that is acceptable.



I'm right in the middle of that working demographic that's willing to pay the going rates for services. And in California Bay Area, you can imagine those services are not inexpensive. And as a busy working class family, with a teenager, I really don't have time to be all folksy with contractors. I need them in and out ASAP. So no, I wouldn't be the market for that liberal of a business model.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Monstertruck said:


> I agree.


Unfortunately, exceptional painters are far and few between. Outside of their own heads.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Supply and demand. LOL

One thing you contractors got going for you though. Your pool of people to work for is bigger. A employee's pool of people to work for tends to be smaller. Sometimes we r monopolized a bit for extended periods. 

Supply and demand


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## CJ-Newfield (Feb 17, 2014)

wje said:


> *There are many threads on this site talking about how to balance out personal life and maintaining a business.* I suggest you look for them if you plan on venturing out on your own.
> 
> You can run your business or it can run you.
> 
> It is what you make of it.


Yes, working only 5-6 hours a day in the bucket should do it. :jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

The Auto body repair shop owner I did an estimate for on Friday finally realized how to balance the need to give his work his best, have a family life, and not encounter total burn out.

He take Fridays off.

When we are young, we have the energy and even the drive to put our all into the business, but believe me, when you reach the mid to late 50's it catches up with you, and it ain't pretty. 

Balance your work load so you have time to unwind. Constant stress is detrimental. Most of us never consider it as stress, it's just building a business. We find out soon enough what this long term strain does. 

Those who are employed have a work day that ends when the whistle blows. Business owners, either solo or boss of others, have plenty of unfinished business after the brush is put down and the whites come off. 

If you feel compelled to give the customer eight full hours at the wall, then schedule a day off each week to take care of the other necessary tasks needed to keep the business going.

Remember, we solos spend approx 1/3 of our work related time NOT at the wall, doing paper work, estimating jobs, gathering supplies, maintaining tools, and all the other "invisible" tasks needed to run a business.

Allow for that time. PLEASE.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Heatho said:


> Is there a way for the OP to end a thread? Lol
> 
> All the opinions are greatly appreciated. I've learned more than I intended to from reading the replies.


Isn't that a helpless feeling? :jester:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

vermontpainter said:


> Isn't that a helpless feeling? :jester:


240 posts? He should be proud!


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> The Auto body repair shop owner I did an estimate for on Friday finally realized how to balance the need to give his work his best, have a family life, and not encounter total burn out.
> 
> He take Fridays off.
> 
> ...


I'd just as soon hire a company that has the resources to leave a warm body at the job site while the CEO takes care of business, golfs, or whatever the heck they want to do, even if it means paying more for the service. I don't care about the personal experience. Especially, when it concerns a paint job. Wall covering, on the other hand, is more specialized, and I would understand if that service was provided by a solo self employed operator.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> I'd just as soon hire a company that has the resources to leave a warm body at the job site while the CEO takes care of business, golfs, or whatever the heck they want to do, even if it means paying more for the service. I don't care about the personal experience. Especially, when it concerns a paint job. Wall covering, on the other hand, is more specialized, and I would understand if that service was provided by a solo self employed operator.


John,

Through my short career, I have realized their are many types of HO's.

Some want a crew of experienced & talented technicians to get in and out in the most expedient manner. Others actually enjoy the virtual live-in carpenter/painter/paperhanger that moves methodically from one room to the next - he/she becomes part of the extended family. 

And there are folks in between. 

I've worked for all of them and I fault none of them. All I can do is adapt to their preferences. 

There is room for all of us to make money on this planet in this profession.


:thumbup:


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

CApainter said:


> I'd just as soon hire a company that has the resources to leave a warm body at the job site while the CEO takes care of business, golfs, or whatever the heck they want to do, even if it means paying more for the service. I don't care about the personal experience. Especially, when it concerns a paint job. Wall covering, on the other hand, is more specialized, and I would understand if that service was provided by a solo self employed operator.


That's twice you've mentioned golf on this subject. I love my golf, but I would never use that as a reason to neglect getting the job done in a timely manner.

Unless it was a fund-raiser for a good cause.

Or a preplanned golf trip with my buddies. 

Or an old friend comes to town>

Or...............well, never mind.:jester:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

or it's been a long winter and the ice just melted off the third green :thumbsup:


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

leisure time requirements expected by all "business owners"​ 
Central Florida is full of "one man companies" and i have no problem with it but i get a lot of work because i have a crew to knock it out

time is money both to me & my clients ... many need it done in a timely manner. If they hire a one man crew to lay tile, install crown, remodel kitchen and paint it could easily turn a 30 day job into 6 months ... something many ho don't have. 

Hiring a company with a full time crew is worth the money in time alone. Now don't get me wrong there are plenty of work for one man companies so i think we're talking about two different markets 

It's only fair to let the ho know ... 

BTW CA, my leisure time is after work, as a business owner i have a responsibility to provide my painters a full time job with full time pay to feed their families ... just because i work 60+ hours a week to grow my company doesn't mean they have to.


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> John, Through my short career, I have realized their are many types of HO's. Some want a crew of experienced & talented technicians to get in and out in the most expedient manner. Others actually enjoy the virtual live-in carpenter/painter/paperhanger that moves methodically from one room to the next - he/she becomes part of the extended family. And there are folks in between. I've worked for all of them and I fault none of them. All I can do is adapt to their preferences. There is room for all of us to make money on this planet in this profession. :thumbup:


G'day Bill

My clients are 100% like that and now I have my mattress setup I might start sleep overs 

Waiting for all the negative replies How un professional to sleep with the client : )


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

benthepainter said:


> G'day Bill
> 
> My clients are 100% like that and now I have my mattress setup I might start sleep overs
> 
> Waiting for all the negative replies How un professional to sleep with the client : )



I don't know about sleeping with the client, but I see you sleep with all your fans


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

daArch said:


> I don't know about sleeping with the client, but I see you sleep with all your fans


With what we've seen of Ben's diet, the importance of the fans cannot be underestimated.


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## Repaint Florida (May 31, 2012)

My clients are 100% like that and now I have my mattress setup I might start sleep overs 

Waiting for all the negative replies How un professional to sleep with the client : )


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Repaint Florida said:


> My clients are 100% like that and now I have my mattress setup I might start sleep overs Waiting for all the negative replies How un professional to sleep with the client : )


What's the first Pic from lol


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

CApainter said:


> Well since Sean stoked the fires, I might as well warm my hands up.
> 
> -This thread began with a solo self employed poster describing his customer's concern about him leaving early from the job site, and asked for feed back in regards to providing a homeowner a full day's worth of service (somewhere between 5-8 hrs) on the job site.
> 
> ...


My gosh, I could have had an exciting night in Rome with a traveling beauty from Argentina before you were finished typing all that!

More power to you!

Have the customer help you help them to be happy! That's the ticket! We are on our way now!


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

End of the day Seriously I don't see the Problem 

Two different Painters both doing the same Job

One finishes the same amount of work in six hours which takes the other one 8hrs 

I pack up and go home pick up my kids and then go home and make dinner for my Family : )

Do I owe anyone anything **** no I have reached my goals for the day : ) while the other guy it took 8hrs 

It's like this day and age like at schools they don't like to say Winners or loosers 

Some Painters are more Productive then others 
: ) Don't Hate


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Ben,

I don't think there's any hate here, or even the hint of bad blood. People are just explaining their way of doing things. And apparently, even though we all have different styles, there seems to be one solution we all agree upon - COMMUNICATION with the HO.

And that's a good thing.

Considering the season, this thread has been very tame - a bit LENGTHY, but good thoughts have been presented in a respectful manner. :thumbup:


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

daArch said:


> Ben, I don't think there's any hate here, or even the hint of bad blood. People are just explaining their way of doing things. And apparently, even though we all have different styles, there seems to be one solution we all agree upon - COMMUNICATION with the HO. And that's a good thing. Considering the season, this thread has been very tame - a bit LENGTHY, but good thoughts have been presented in a respectful manner. :thumbup:


G'day Bill

I was trying to sound young lol isn't that what they say don't be a Hater lol


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

benthepainter said:


> G'day Bill
> 
> I was trying to sound young lol isn't that what they say don't be a Hater lol


I don't know. PWG is the one I hear say it most often, and he sure ain't young :whistling2:


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Well since Sean stoked the fires, I might as well warm my hands up.


That was my intent John. I see you have a strong work ethic while also in some ways you might be suffering from burnout. The latter is simply observational since I suffer from a similar infliction and was not meant to be disrespectful by any means. 



CJ-Newfield said:


> not putting in a solid 8hr days on the wall and 5-6 hour days are two different things. When you are doing work for a customer, you owe it to them to make the inconvenience minimal.
> I agree but going by the op this was simply a failure of communication.
> 
> If a business owner needs time for family and fun times, he/she can do that in-between jobs. When a job is complete, take two / three days off before starting a new project. Why not be able to conduct those types of things during normal business hrs? Why should the op or any business owner have to deal with supplies and paper work off hrs?
> ...


Yes from a small business perspective a fair amount will be done off hrs but the bulk should be part of a normal day. I guess it depends on the type of business platform they are working on along with their mission statement, which truthfully so many small painting business have probably never performed. 



Ole34 said:


> I love working 7 days a week...I would never want to have to work 7 days a week


 lmao the enigma. Me personally I hate working 7 days a week and and only do it when I feel it is needed. If I was a bit more successful and a bit smarter I would not have to be on the wall at all. 



CApainter said:


> As a homeowner, a solo self employed painter would have to be exceptional and reasonably priced before I agreed to such a liberal schedule. I really don't believe there's that large of a gap in exceptionability from one painter to the next for me to agree to such terms and conditions. I'll just say "Next".
> 
> 
> 
> Double standards do apply when someone's paying for a service. Even the pot smoking homeowner probably wouldn't want a pot smoking painter.


Yes John it is always a two way street and some HO's want to make sure you are not making more than they are but the reality is that those HO's are not seeing/counting all the other hrs that went into the project such as scheduling, supply runs, the proposal, the possible color samples, and a few other things that go with the territory. In truth on the wall I do 7-8+ on the wall and am wanting to get it down to 2hrs while I focus on sales and what not but atm I very deep in the bucket. Obviously I will have to make changes because with my work/school schedule it is becoming very tiresome and feel some changes will be needed. 

Also the same could be said for some employees thinking that the business owner has it made being able to answer calls and make unexpected appointments during the day to keep the workforce happy. It all comes down to finding the right platform that works for the business platform. I mean only a portion of this site are working guys 52 weeks much less medical/dental/solid benefits for their employees much less themselves. Many of these so called entrepreneurial dreams are not able to fit the bill as reliable 52 weeks a year there is a seasonal aspect that goes along with this trade when you are living in colder climates than sunny CA. 

Also just to be clear I have never been asked or confronted on days when I cut out early for whatever reason. The schedule is all that matter to most. Keep your word and as long as they are not adding extras to the job I usually can meet my time frame. The time frame is what is most important because like yourself and myself I want as little disruption to them as possible.


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## Heatho (Oct 19, 2013)

I feel I'm more productive on an organized, focused 6-7 hour day than I am on an 8-12. Once fatigue sets in, I get scatterbrained, clumsy, and pay less attention to detail. Everyone's different as far as energy levels go.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Good points Sean.

Unlike you, the OP made no indication that he's actually growing a painting business, but rather modeling his service and market to allow for a more liberal schedule for himself. What sparked the debate, was his irritation with a homeowner that had concerns about his liberal schedule. As if all homeowners have an obligation to tolerate the self employed worker's personal needs. After all, the OP stated that the reason he started his own solo paint business was to set his own hours and have the freedom to do what _he_ wants. 

Which begs another question:

Do you start a business to provide a service for others, or for yourself? And if you say both, an honest days worth of work, and the customers interests would have to be met as part of that reason, along with scheduling plenty of play time for yourself.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Heatho said:


> I feel I'm more productive on an organized, focused 6-7 hour day than I am on an 8-12. Once fatigue sets in, I get scatterbrained, clumsy, and pay less attention to detail. Everyone's different as far as energy levels go.


BINGO !

Although, if you try nibbling something healthy after 5 - 6 hours, you MIGHT feel less fatigued. Needing to control my blood sugar (pre-diabetes) has shown me the importance of keeping it more even with less spikes and valleys.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

I admire people who are self employed. It takes a lot of sacrifice, responsibility, and long hours, that unfortunately, can have a less than desirable impact on family and life style needs. These are some of the main reasons I never became self employed. I like a set schedule provided by a good employer. And even though my day is nine hours long, I never really "work" to an extreme for more then six actual hours in the day. I've learned to pace myself in that day, but still make a commitment to my employer. That's the contract we have with each other. And at the end of the day, literally, I leave my work at work.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

CApainter said:


> I admire people who are self employed. It takes a lot of sacrifice, responsibility, and long hours, that unfortunately, can have a less than desirable impact on family and life style needs. These are some of the main reasons I never became self employed. I like a set schedule provided by a good employer. And even though my day is nine hours long, I never really "work" to an extreme for more then six actual hours in the day. I've learned to pace myself in that day, but still make a commitment to my employer. That's the contract we have with each other. And at the end of the day, literally, I leave my work at work.


So you don't feel that you owe your employer an eight-hour day?:whistling2:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Gough said:


> So you don't feel that you owe your employer an eight-hour day?:whistling2:


It's actually nine. And yes, I absolutely owe my employer nine hours of my presence on the job or risk breach of contract. Of course I have breaks, meetings, assements, lunch, and more breaks besides the actual labor or physical work that's required of me. But I'm present for nine whole hours.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

TJ Paint said:


> My gosh, I could have had an exciting night in Rome with a traveling beauty from Argentina before you were finished typing all that!


Actually, I hired someone to type it while I was playing XBox. I didn't want to neglect you guys for my own selfish needs. You see, I care


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

daArch said:


> ...Others actually enjoy the virtual live-in carpenter/painter/paperhanger that moves methodically from one room to the next - he/she becomes part of the extended family. :thumbup:


It always made me a bit nervous when a homeowner really enjoyed my presence. It made me work all the more fast. Although, the one women that fixed her and I a little picnic on her San Francisco apartment living room floor, had the potential to grow into a fine worker/customer relationship. However, I remained prudent out of concern for serious personal injury had her husband discovered us.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

CApainter said:


> It always made me a bit nervous when a homeowner really enjoyed my presence. It made me work all the more fast. Although, the one women that fixed her and I a little picnic on her San Francisco apartment living room floor, had the potential to grow into a fine worker/customer relationship. However, I remained prudent out of concern for serious personal injury had her husband discovered us.


Hahaha, I can hear the **** music.


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## Steve Richards (Dec 31, 2010)

CApainter said:


> Of course I have breaks, meetings, assements, lunch, and more breaks besides the actual labor or physical work that's required of me. But I'm present for nine whole hours.


Aren't most of your PT posts made during business hours too?

My next employee won't be allowed internet access at work.
When he asks why...I'm gonna tell him a little story about I guy I know named CApainter.


Dammit. I forgot I already washed my hands of this thread!
*handwashing sounds coming from my bathroom again*


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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

skinne9 said:


> Hahaha, I can hear the **** music.


The word you want to use here is smutnounce. Your welcome.


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## skinne9 (Nov 21, 2009)

fauxlynn said:


> The word you want to use here is smutnounce. Your welcome.


Smutnounce is adult video music here on PT? Thanks for sharing.


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## Havebrushwilltravel (Feb 13, 2009)

READY TO ROLL said:


> At my age (58) I like to put in about 6 hours a day. With those hours I can work at at a fast pace without taking more then a couple 5 minute breaks. My body holds up well with those hours. Anymore then that and my back, feet, etc start to go. I tell the HO upfront the hours I work. I just tell em' that I gotta leave by 2pm to go over to another job. Once and awhile they do give me a little grief about it. When I was younger I sometimes worked 7 days a week but don't want to do that anymore. To all you younger guys, yes, It will catch up with you.


I'm with you. I'm over 60 and 5-6 hours a day is enough for me. As long as the job gets done in the timeframe agreed upon it's all good. I'm done busting my ass.:thumbup:


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Havebrushwilltravel said:


> I'm with you. I'm over 60 and 5-6 hours a day is enough for me. As long as the job gets done in the timeframe agreed upon it's all good. I'm done busting my ass.:thumbup:


This is why I would prefer hiring a younger worker. My theory is that productivity from most workers over fifty years of age decreases exponentially. Now, as a homeowner, if I was inclined to shoot the sh!t with a worker, I'd probably prefer to have those conversations with someone older in years, who might provide some interesting stories. We might even enjoy sharing our experiences from the 1970's and 80's'. lol!

But I'm not inclined to do so.


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## House Painter (Oct 17, 2009)

I myself am down to a 6 hour day , I have been a painting cont. for 35 years and spent many years running 80 hour weeks , now i am back to working alone and totally agree with you. I do the same thing i just let them know ahead of time ,I have found most people will accept the time lines for quality work.


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## spraytip (Jun 28, 2012)

Heatho said:


> I've been a self-employed painter for 13 years and, because of diversification, only work 2-3 days(maybe 18-20 hours) per week and spend the rest of my time enjoying my kids and hobbies. I recently took on a job locally that i estimated would take 3 days to complete working 5-6 hours each of those days. It peeves the lady when I leave every day at 2:30 to go pick my kids up from school and be finished for the day. I know now that I should have told her before the job started, but would like some opinions anyway. Do we owe the people we work for an 8 hour day? One of the reasons I own my business is to set my own hours, have some freedom, etc.


I give my customers complete respect, but if I'm giving her quality work at a steady pace while I'm on her job (and estimated 3 days to complete) and she has a problem with my schedule, I'd pack it up and wish her a great life....."AIN'T GOT TIME FOR THAT!!!"


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

if candy bars can shrink in size yet remain the same price then so can my work day....


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

Ole34 said:


> if candy bars can shrink in size yet remain the same price then so can my work day....


G'day Ole 

I think the thread can be closed now : ) Thanks


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

benthepainter said:


> G'day Ole
> 
> I think the thread can be closed now : ) Thanks


:thumbup:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

CApainter said:


> This is why I would prefer hiring a younger worker. My theory is that productivity from most workers over fifty years of age decreases exponentially. Now, as a homeowner, if I was inclined to shoot the sh!t with a worker, I'd probably prefer to have those conversations with someone older in years, who might provide some interesting stories. We might even enjoy sharing our experiences from the 1970's and 80's'. lol!
> 
> But I'm not inclined to do so.


Yes John.

With us old farts, the volume per hour may decrease but the quality per dollar increases.

Do I have to even hint what my customers prefer ?  :thumbsup: :whistling2:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Ole34 said:


> if candy bars can shrink in size yet remain the same price then so can my work day....


Close enough. Here's the math: 8 @ $60 = 480 versus 6 @ $75= 450


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Ole34 said:


> if candy bars can shrink in size yet remain the same price then so can my work day....


I don't know where you get your candy bars, Round here they are half the size they used to be and double they price...


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

wje said:


> I don't know where you get your candy bars, Round here they are half the size they used to be and double they price...


knowing Ole, he still gets them for free


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## benthepainter (Jun 17, 2011)

I started at 8am it 12.15pm I'm about to pack up for the day and I'm on my little scaffold and notice a Bee stuck In a web : ( so helped it out 

Would the 8hr painters stop for a bee ?









Last section and I'm done : )


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ole34 said:


> if candy bars can shrink in size yet remain the same price then so can my work day....


It ain't the size of the candy bar that's important, it's the amount of satisfaction it delivers.:whistling2:


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

slinger58 said:


> It ain't the size of the candy bar that's important, it's the amount of satisfaction it delivers.:whistling2:


Many artists have expressed the same but in terms of the Blues








my favorite is Maria's version


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