# Starting Out - Cabinets and Walls - Which Sprayer?



## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

Hello all, I am new and this is my first post!

I'm just starting to do some renos professionally.

I am trying to find the best sprayer for my needs. I make cabinets and I love it, but I absolutely HATE painting them (especially when I use melamine paint ) 

I would love to try a sprayer.

I also do a lot of trim work, wall painting, and I build decks as well.

Is there a sprayer that can do walls, trim, decks, and cabinets. (basically something very versatile), or do I need seperate machines for seperate tasks?

I'd like to spend somewhere between $500-1000 for a decent set-up. I've been reading some of the posts in the forums and it seems a lot of people like the Titan brand, and I'm on their website now but since I have no clue what it is I am really looking for I was wondering if I could get some advice:yes:

Thanks in advance!


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

After reading for a couple nights, I think the titan 440 might be good


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## Brush and Roller (Jun 3, 2008)

For a guy who Hates painting, you seem to do alot of it! :whistling2:
Welcome to the site.


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

haha! :whistling2:

Well, I don't mind painting walls, fences, decks, trim, and the likes. But for some reason I really hate painting cabinets, desks, furniture, etc.

I guess because it takes so long, and it's hard. I could probably paint a whole interior of a house quicker than just a few cabinet doors 

I guess because I'm both not a pro painter, and I'm picky. However, I have to paint the stuff I build, unfortunately :001_tongue:

I assume that a sprayer will make the process quicker, and provide a better-looking end product?

I am also having a hard time finding someone who sells Titan sprayers in my area (vancouver, b.c.)


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

might you want to consider an hvlp set up for painting furniture? You will at the very least need to use fine finish tips if you get the 440i. If you are looking for something that can do walls, trim, and furniture I would think the only choice would be something like the Finish pro from Graco or the AirCoat from spraytech. The Aircoat is a diaphragm pump however, and some people have reported that it can not keep up with airless production spraying. My spraytech guy strongly recommended me away from the aircoat towards the Finish Pro 395. It is out of your budget but would fit your needs and probably be more economical than two sprayers (an hvlp and an airless), though I am not sure I fully understand your situation.


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

Hmmm... I see that the finish pro are about $2G which I can't see myself investing that much, My tablesaw and mitre saw combined almost add up to that.



tsunamicontract said:


> though I am not sure I fully understand your situation.


My situation is that I do small renovations which include: making cabinets, desks, built-ins, trimwork, installing windows and doors, flooring, and almost anything else the HO asks for.

When I build something or install something, the jobs are not (yet) large enough to sub out a painter so I do the painting myself.

The biggest reno I've done so far, and none this big in the near future, is a house where I knocked down some walls that were for a closet and a pantry to open up a living space. Ripped up all the carpet and linoleum flooring and installed hardwood, built a new pantry that matched the cabinets, granite tile entranceway and fireplace, put in some nice chandeliers, and some ceiling speakers, a lot of trimwork with some wainscotting in the powder room and paneling along the entrance hall.

Right now I'm just finishing up some Cabinets for a veterinary clinic (the painting took me so long ).

I _was_ looking for a _decent_ sprayer that could do all my painting needs, but if I had to settle I would settle for a decent one that could do just the stuff I detest painting, like cabinets and furniture? or could the 440i do it if I got some fine tips? :notworthy:

thanks for all the pointers! (it would be nice if my business got large enough that I could just sub out the painting :thumbup


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

what about just hiring a part time painter? that might be the easiest solution. Theoretically you can get very fine finishes with fine finish tips, but I have not been able to master that, seems to be a decent learning curve (I have not tried very much or read the instructions on the fine finish tips either :whistling2
I also do not see why you would have to be doing large projects to sub out the painting, just find a painter you feel comfortable with, have him give you a bid on the painting, add a little to that to cover your time and bill the owner for it. If you are doing remodels, it is not practical to spray in an occupied residence. If you are doing cabinets and trim could you spray them in your shop, install them, and touch them up? This way you can do the majority of the painting that you don't like in the comfort of your shop with an hvlp unit, forget the airless (really meant for exterior and new construction work) and touch things up with maybe a prevail sprayer or a steady hand and some leveling agent at the jobsite.


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

I know people and have connections to good painters through my work on sites as an electrical apprentice (before I started doing renos on the side, and slowly making it my main income) so I can easily get in contact with good painters that I could trust, but I just assumed they wouldn't want to bother with the small jobs I usually do.

I guess it can't hurt to talk to a painter just to see what they're willing to do and what kind of rates they've got for me.

by part-time painter do you mean some kid with painting experience who needs some extra dollars every once in a while?


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## scavonch (Jun 28, 2008)

My 2 cents,
Hire someone with experience. It'll bump up the quality of the job. If you do good work it deserves a proper finish, particularly cabinets and furniture. Then look at bumping up what you charge for the the work!


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

I agree the quality of work would go up, but on the other hand, If I do it myself long enough, I _will_ be someone with experience 

My rate would go up, but the offset of paying someone else for the painting would probably even me out. Then again, it would free up time for myself for other work.

It's a tough decision for me, because I'd like to get good at painting, and instead of paying someone else to do it _all the money is mine!_ /greed :shifty:

If I get big enough jobs or a large volume of jobs, it does makes sense to hire someone to keep a good timeframe though.

ugh... so many things to consider


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

Have your experianced painter/friend finish a piece you built. Use that piece as a selling tool.

"Mrs. Customer, would you like a finish like this on your cabinets?" She says yes, then follow up with "I have worked with (name here) and that is who I use to finish this kind of project." Get a price and add your cut.

Sounds like you are doing higher end work. People in that range want VALUE. (Value= perceicved quality, service and price) Sell yourself and your work. You can even claim the painter works for you. (which he does if you sub the work)

Am sure there are plenty of good painters that are looking to make a few buck on the side.


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## Ron 2 (Jun 27, 2008)

*My two cents...*

It's been asked but I haven't seen it answered yet...do you build off-site in a shop/garage in your backyard? If so (and you've got tollerant neighbors)...voila...instant finishing shop!
Are your customers specifying the finishes (products) or are you just using whatever you choose? I'll assume that you're doing work (or will be) in both stain and paint grade materials?
It's safe to assume that you own a decent compressor with a mid/high delivery rate?
If you're looking for a "one size fits all" solution to cabinet finishing then your first purchase should be a decent air spray pistol. I highly recommend the Kremlin M22 line (manufactured in France, not sure who distributes Kremlin out in B.C.); this gun and a couple of different needle/block/aircap sets will do everthing you need, from shooting high solids primers right down to shading 1/16" lines with microton/thinners. The bad news?...you're looking at about $700-$1000 for the pistol alone. If you want to acheive high-end cabinet grade finishes, this is the minimum price you should expect to pay. I would recommend that you spend the money on the pistol first and confine paint delivery to a conventional pressure pot and three different material lines (one for each of: solid color; clear; and spray stain). These pistols are fully capable of HVLP conversion if you wish to later go that route for your higher viscosity coatings...

This gun gives you the one thing that you really need when learning to spray cabinets...total fan/fluid flow control.

A couple of major tips?...leave the backs off your boxes until after you're done spraying them...you can shoot from the back side through the boxes, avoiding:-any "bounceback" issues or sagging/dry corners and also avoiding overloading your front edges/corners causing sags. (set them upside down on saw horses, that way your bottom shelf always comes out shiny and wet)
...also?...HANG everything you can; doors/fillers/end panels; you can fully wet coat pieces this way. 

Shooting trim/moldings or anything else is a walk in the park...high end cabinetry is a whole other ballgame.

If you're really serious about getting into this...PM me.

Cheers, Ron


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## tsunamicontract (May 3, 2008)

by part time painter I meant someone who runs his one man show but isn't always super busy, he will appreciate the extra work and you will appreciate not having to do it


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

bikerboy said:


> Have your experianced painter/friend finish a piece you built. Use that piece as a selling tool.
> 
> "Mrs. Customer, would you like a finish like this on your cabinets?" She says yes, then follow up with "I have worked with (name here) and that is who I use to finish this kind of project." Get a price and add your cut.


That is actually a good idea. I was going to make a few sample of cabinet doors to show customers: A Raised Panel and a Flat Panel: Painted Solid, Painted with Glaze, and a couple different Stains.

I could do a set that I finished and a set that a PRO painter finished 



Ron 2 said:


> It's been asked but I haven't seen it answered yet...do you build off-site in a shop/garage in your backyard?


Any cabinets I make are in my shop/garage, then installed on-site.



> Are your customers specifying the finishes (products) or are you just using whatever you choose?


So far, professionally, I've only done one customers cabinets, aside from a pantry I made to match some cabinets but that was easy.



> I'll assume that you're doing work (or will be) in both stain and paint grade materials?


The cabinets I'm just finishing are for a veterinary clinic and they didn't even care about colour, but they did say the liked Melamine paint because they've used it before and liked it. I built the cabinets from paint grade maple plywood (I hate MDF and any sort of particle board, and would never use them unless the customer was insistent). I have not made anything stain-grade (for a customer) yet.

I've been making stuff and staining it for years and it always looks good, but I know that I am no professional when it comes to it and would really like to improve on the time it takes me and the "smoothness" of my finishes. I am willing to consider the option of hiring someone, but I think now I would rather at least attempt to be able to finish them myself. What kind of craftsman can't finish his own products? 



> It's safe to assume that you own a decent compressor with a mid/high delivery rate?


 So far my porter-cable pancake compressor has been more than sufficient to run any air-tools I've needed, but I think I might need to upgrade if I go with an air spray pistol?


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## Ron 2 (Jun 27, 2008)

*Sounds like you're...*

...willing to give it a go then?

High end woodfinishing is one of the most satisfying disciplines in the field of painting...you're generally working for a very select group of customers and for many of them, price is really not a major concern (in my experience). I am also a carpenter, although I started as a finisher, then learned carpentry later. My latest project is a full bathroom (studs to finish) complete with a set of Cherry/Black Walnut doors done in bookmatched marquetry for a linen tower (to match a vanity the customer purchased at Revy). I will post photos when I've finished the install and sealed the tile...three doors and an end panel? $2200.00. To the right person these kinds of skills are recognized as the art form that they truely are...

Believe me bro...there are _many of these folks_ in the greater Vancouver area.
We should probably take this off the forum... but because I'm such a "newbie" it appears I've got no PM function :blink: and I'm definately not throwing my e-mail up for the cyberbots! It appears that you can message as a visitor so I'm gonna log out and give it a try, hopefully it works!

Cheers, Ron


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

Click the link in my sig, then click on contact, and you can email me :notworthy:


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

*Doors*

They doors are not perfect, but they are decent for plywood. The vet. place wants things quick, and give me a slightly stingy impression so I didn't use solid wood :tongue_smilie:

From now on though, I think i will only use quality materials _and_ tell the customer exactly how long it will take me to do a good job instead of letting the customer dictate what time they think they should get their product. if they don't like my timeframe, they can hire someone with a quicker one. I am not 100% satisfied with this job, and it is because I didn't take my time on some things that I wish I did. 

No matter what, those cabinets will always be there and they are a testament to my craftsmanship. I am learning that having a reputation for quality work outweighs getting every job that is offered. Even though the customer dictating the timeframe is the main reason for me not being 100% satisfied, I am giving them a good price. I don't want them telling other people who made the cabinets and then what price they paid and people saying you paid _that_ price for _those_ cabinets? 

the vet place of course loves them (you should see the old crappy ones they have in some other rooms, and what they had before). I'll post before and after later in the week.


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

fungku said:


> Hello all, I am new and this is my first post!
> 
> I'm just starting to do some renos professionally.
> 
> ...


Graco Ultra MX II 395 is what I would consider--better yet the Ulltra MX II 495 if you are going to be shooting walls (as in new drywall?).

With todays electronic pressure control systems on airlesses, even a big airless can do fine finish work.

The 395 starts around $1000.

This is basically the going street price for a Ultra 395--Sherwin Williams charges the same--plus tax.
http://store.spraymallstore.com/grpasp.html

I've seen some relabled Graco Ultra 395's go for a few hundred less on Ebay.



Casey


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## alpinecrick (May 11, 2007)

fungku said:


> I _was_ looking for a _decent_ sprayer that could do all my painting needs, but if I had to settle I would settle for a decent one that could do just the stuff I detest painting, like cabinets and furniture? or could the 440i do it if I got some fine tips? :notworthy:


 
Regular .013 or .011 tips on an airless can and will do a very good job with enamels and lacquers--including melamine. I sometimes spray lacquer with a .015 tip.

A HVLP is a good tool for some specific work, but an airless is far more versatile. Buying both will double your cost.

The Titan 440 gained a reputation as a very good, for the money, small commercial grade airless in the 90's--and Titan has capitalized on that reputation. The 440 is very good, the Ultra 395 is better quality, but it becomes a cost-benefit decision. The Titan 440 is probably comparable to the Graco 390. Graco parts and accessories are always going to be easier to find.

Remember, every tool always needs accesories  --for an airless, an extra 50 ft of hose, a variety of tips, different mesh of filters for the airless and the gun, etc. It is always a good idea to have a pump repack kit handy, along with a gun repack kit.


Casey


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## fungku (Jun 26, 2008)

Thank you all for the input.

After much deliberation and with the advice and aid of someone who has lots of experience finishing cabinets I have decided to go with an Air Spray Pistol 

Kremlin M22.

I have fully completed the cabinets and you can see them in this thread: http://www.painttalk.com/showthread.php?t=2461

Thanks all again!

If I ever need to spray a deck or fence I will invest in one of the less-expensive Titans or Graco if I can afford it. As far as walls and other things, I will use brush and roller or hire a paint contractor, depending on complexity and size of the job.


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## SPRAYERMAN (Jul 21, 2008)

*how much to spend?*

Depending on how much you want to spend, there are a few options. The first thing that comes to mind is the Graco Finish Pro 395. This will work as an Air-Assisted sprayer for the fine finish work and will also work as an airless sprayer for everything else plus you have a built in air compressor. The draw back to this is that you are looking at an $1,800.00 price tag.

On the other end, I would recommend the Titan 440ix. The ix has an "infinity" motor that eliminates the problem with dead band which is what causes the problems when doing fine finish work. On this sprayer, the motor adjusts it's speed for the material and pressure being sprayed so there is no stopping and starting so the pressure remains constant.


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