# A ladder riddle for you



## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

How can I pull this off?


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

ladder roof rook. A ladder will fit on the 2 foot space won't it?


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## Ultimate (Mar 20, 2011)

He has an answer I am willing to bet for the low low cost of $29.99.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Roof hooks work great, I have three.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Or just lean a ladder against the edge of the roof like in your diagram. Just set it at an angle to the house so you have two points of contact at the top.

Even better. Put a stand-off a few rungs down from the top of the ladder, so that the top few rungs extend over the shingles. That should get you access.


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## caulktheline (Feb 10, 2011)

You beat me to it Schmidt


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

caulktheline said:


> You beat me to it Schmidt


It's not rocket science. Just takes a little thinking on some set-ups.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Schmidt & Co. said:


> It's not rocket science. Just takes a little thinking on some set-ups.


sometimes I don't think a rocket surgeon could think up some of the staging solutions we devise.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

daArch said:


> sometimes I don't think a rocket surgeon could think up some of the staging solutions we devise.


True dat.


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

Mr. Schmidt, thanks for the help. I see you are located in Chicago. I'm 22, and running a small student painting franchise out of Elmhurst. This is my first year. I'm looking to get a lot of experience. Would you be interested in hiring/developing me or could you advise me on how to get involved in a Union apprenticeship and if that is a good avenue to take? You seem a most wise counsel.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

lift, ladder hooks, ladder layed out on the roof ect. 
http://www.painttalk.com/f11/any-suggestions-tackling-6613/


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

dmarqu5 said:


> Mr. Schmidt, thanks for the help. I see you are located in Chicago. I'm 22, and running a small student painting franchise out of Elmhurst. This is my first year. I'm looking to get a lot of experience. Would you be interested in hiring/developing me or could you advise me on how to get involved in a Union apprenticeship and if that is a good avenue to take? You seem a most wise counsel.


If you have what it takes and you are an employee type of guy, the union is the way to go. Scale in Chicago is $38.00 and change with full bennies. I don't know anyone to put you in touch with, so I'd just Google them for contact info.


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

Forgot I had an actual picture of the job. Circled is a buttress that is hanging on by dear life to the nails - the last painters actually just caulked the separation to make it look okay. This is common on I'd say 2 out of 3 buttress on each side. We aren't structural engineers or carpenters but we are booked at 4.5k. I will definitely point it out to the homeowner - but I didn't inspect well before starting the job - otherwise I think the right move would have been to advise work be done on the structural issues first.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

dmarqu5 said:


> Forgot I had an actual picture of the job. Circled is a buttress that is hanging on by dear life to the nails - the last painters actually just caulked the separation to make it look okay. This is common on I'd say 2 out of 3 buttress on each side. We aren't structural engineers or carpenters but we are booked at 4.5k. I will definitely point it out to the homeowner - but I didn't inspect well before starting the job - otherwise I think the right move would have been to advise work be done on the structural issues first.


I would suggest you may want to discuss the structural issues with the HO now. These things pop up and encountering something you were unable to detect at the time of bidding may well neccesitate an add on. By all means if this issue is causing a structural weakness that in turn may endanger you or your crew while working on there - get it taken care of first. You'll end up doing the HO a favor by bringing this to their attention so it can be properly fixed and possibly save your own neck(s) as well.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

College Pro?

You're running the franchise but want to apprentice?


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

College Pro, yes. The Franchise is not profitable. I do not own the franchise, I am a franchisee. The royalty is 25% off the top, unless you reach an 80,000 sales goal from January through August. With the insurance and call center, they take basically a third off the top of each job. It's not profitable. The company provided me with a single "training house" which was a random house in another guys sales territory. They expect you to hire, train and manage 3 crews of painters and produce 80,000 in 3 months. Some of the guys do it - I'm painting all the time with my guys and I'll be lucky to pay for all the equipment I bought by the end of the season. I've been learning as I go, I either want to run my own painting business or go Union


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

College Pro is great, i love em. No idea how to paint or anything to do with RRP regulations. 

I knew a guy from my hometown that did it(they usually hire college students going into their sr year). Training was 3 days in a classroom, he had to hire painters(craigslist, college kids, no expierence either) for 9/hr. Door to door marketing(nothing wrong with that) And then the pricing falls on the low end of the spectrum( i have the bidding sheets they give, for both college pro and collegiate courtesy of guys that got screwed by both companies). Sales pitch begins trying to set up the estimate "college kid working to put themselves through schoool". Company provides the "branch managers" with insurance, and licence..as the OP says for a cut. Off gross sales. Reguardless of production rates or profit.

Great expierence, as it gives these guys the insight on what it takes to startup. But most of em dont make good profit, becasue they are getting non-expiernced guys who dont know how to paint for 9/hr. The mentality i have heard is "anyone can paint, painters are expendable" "hire more if i need em". Tends to be common..and so wrong

College pro in my home state ended up getting sued hardcore for not paying their employees..that and alot of poor work( zero tipping cedar siding, looks like a worm ate through it). 

If you want to run your own business, go learn from a reputable contractor(like schmidt). I believe they made you sign a non-compete clause right?


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

Ladder stabalizer or ladder hook


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

dmarqu5,

You sound like a young guy who wants to do it right and still make some coin. And I admit that most college pro franchisee's start off as you do, just wanting to learn the ropes so that you can strike out on your own with better knowledge. Unfortunately the college pro model is not an environment that really gives a rat's ass about the kids they sucker in.

Read all the internet exposés on it and the other college student painting franchise rip offs out there, and then get the hell away from CP before you work your ass all all summer for virtually nothing.

NOW, if you are only a college kid who is doing this as a one time shot for one summer, you'd bankroll more money by working for an established and legit company, and if you are someone who seeks a painting career, CP won't get you on your feet.

Run Forrest Run


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

dmarqu5,

and StripandCaulk brings up a very serious issue.

that house you pictured is pre-1978.

What RRP training do you have? If you do not know what RRP is, be ready to be caught by the EPA and fined HUGE sums of money per day per incident (like 35,000)


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

I actually have the EPA Lead Certification Initial. The white trim is absolutely lead. To do any lead prep right it takes MASSIVE amounts of time, and time is something I can't have when I'm paying my guys by the hour and painting myself to try and stave off losing money. We just rolled out some plastic and wore the respirators. We have used the suits before, and I've got a smaller HEPA vac, but to be honest if we followed everything strictly and were as paranoid as we're supposed to be I would go bankrupt. I probably definitely have some lead poisoning but I can't afford a $100 blood test.


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## NEPS.US (Feb 6, 2008)

F-me! Learn how to paint a house before you take a check. WTF.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

No offense to anyone but even if I wasn't a painter I think I'd know better than to have a couple of college kids working summer jobs painting on my house. It's a bit silly really. Is there a college roofers? College plumbers? College replacement windows for God's sake?


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

dmarqu5 said:


> I actually have the EPA Lead Certification Initial. The white trim is absolutely lead. To do any lead prep right it takes MASSIVE amounts of time, and time is something I can't have when I'm paying my guys by the hour and painting myself to try and stave off losing money. We just rolled out some plastic and wore the respirators. We have used the suits before, and I've got a smaller HEPA vac, but to be honest if we followed everything strictly and were as paranoid as we're supposed to be I would go bankrupt. I probably definitely have some lead poisoning but I can't afford a $100 blood test.


The above is going to rub some the wrong way as many on this site are wanting to raise the bar of the trade and rid this trade of the stereotypes that plague us. I understand starting on a shoestring and cutting corners but in the long run improvement is the goal for those that stay with this for the long term. Just something to think about.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

dmarqu5,

if you think doing the lead containment the correct way will bankrupt you, what will being caught do ?

PLEASE, for the sake of the industry, the HO, the reputation of other painters, and YOUR bank book, WALK AWAY from jobs that entail lead containment.

Learn the trade on track housing built after 78. 

I am trying to be pleasant, respectful, and helpful, but I am seething inside.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

Lol, i had a bet with my buddy that this guy had his cert and wasnt following it. Just got a free round of golf next time i end up at home. Thanks dmarqu5:thumbsup:

They should seriously make rules against any of the college franchise companies comming on here. None of them should represent the industry. They are not contractors. Wathcing them operate is like watching a chicken run around with its head cut off, and i have seen both.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

Stefan,

But by letting them on here, we may be able to "influence" then into becoming legit and responsible.

That would be a win win.

the kids who are doing this crap aren't really the ones to blame, it's the asswipes at the top of the chain that are forcing them to cut corners, produce sh!tty work, and blacken our collective eye. 

I just hope one college no-pro doesn't start giving a student no-pro advice and really dilute the gene pool.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

daArch said:


> Stefan,
> 
> But by letting them on here, we may be able to "influence" then into becoming legit and responsible.
> 
> ...


Bill,

I want to agree with you, however i view them as "job security". 

Little background, 5 years ago i worked for collegiate entrepreneurs doing some marketing. Saw the whole operation. Found a very reputable guy one night knocking on doors(3 weeks in) realized he was a painter, said i could get him more work. We worked out an arrangement and i also painted for him fulltime. I put two and two together and was in biz about 2 months later. 

Since then, i have hired and had to-retrain several of their employees, heard of countless horror stories from clients. Had to answer the question "are you college pro" at least a dozen times. 

Was approached by one of the head guys for their franchise "we'd really love you to come on board with us and become a branch manager, normally we dont do this for guys that dont have at least 3 years of college down and are aspiring to finish out a degree"

My response was "go phuck yourself, have a nice day"

I'll take anyone of the guys that doesnt represent the company and retrain him. Otherwise they are just supplying those of us who actually know what we are doing with job security. They help give us credibility, as they should not be even carrying ladders, yet alone getting on them. Let them fall off a ladder get hurt, completely mess someones house up..eventually they will take a hit in an area.

I could create a whole new subforum on this if you want

IDC if they troll either, just dont post. Please.

Thanks


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

StripandCaulk said:


> Lol, i had a bet with my buddy that this guy had his cert and wasnt following it. Just got a free round of golf next time i end up at home. Thanks dmarqu5:thumbsup:
> 
> They should seriously make rules against any of the college franchise companies comming on here. None of them should represent the industry. They are not contractors. Wathcing them operate is like watching a chicken run around with its head cut off, and i have seen both.


I post on this site to seek help, and browse the forums to better myself as a "painter" since that is what I am doing for my homeowners. 

Honestly, the company could care less about the quality of the painting itself, it's all about the royalty for them. My company-provided training with no prior painting experience consisted of a single "training house" in which we painted a single story of previously uncoated brick and some dormers. 

The company doesn't authorize the use of ladder jacks or scaffolding. We are however shown how to use a harness fall arrest system. This usually means that if there is a hard spot instead of rigging anything up we have to stand a steep sloped roof anchored in with the harness.

As far as the lead training goes - there are some 10 out of 30 franchisees under my supervisor who received lead certification through the company - meaning the company organized a trainer to come out. I was not one of those 10 - I had several lead jobs booked so I TOOK THE INITIATIVE to drop $300 and find the one day, 8 hour certification in which we were shown how to put on a coverall, the respirator, introduced to what a HEPA VAC looked like and how to roll out plastic. 

Also, the company signs on all their franchisees in January, has us sign contracts with a bunch of clients and hire college guys for 5 months from January to May, and then trains us on a "training house" for 3 days in May and expects us to be able to manage 2-3 crews of inexperienced painters to produce 80k in sales (30+ jobs) during June, July and August. 

I'm contracted with many different clients, and I can't just walk away from my business. Screw you for saying I don't belong here because I'm trying to get all the help I can get.

I am booked at 20k, and I will walk away with a net loss. The company charges about 4k to give you access to their sales/job tracking program, give you a bunch of fliers and signs, car magnets, forms. Then you have to pay 1/3 of each job for them, 25% in royalty alone, the rest in insurance and "call center" fees.

So 4k plus 1/3rd of each job puts me at 10.6k to the company alone. Labor is about 1/3rd as well so that leaves me at 17.4k. That leaves me 2.6k to cover all the equipment I bought, plus gas, rental equipment etc.

I can't sue the company, there is a clause in the contract stating we have to settle disputes by arbitration - and of course the arbitrators to try and settle things on your own with the company first.

I seriously think this is a case of franchise fraud.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

You would be light years ahead doing this on your own.

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

dmarqu5 said:


> I seriously think this is a case of franchise fraud.


It is.


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

I will be sure to update ya'll at the end of the season - and of any legal action I take.


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## StripandCaulk (Dec 30, 2011)

What are you going to sue the company for? What is your legal recourse? You signed up for it. Everything you just outlayed, is exactly why id love to see them go out of business. As you said yourself, you didnt have really any training to get off the ground with. This company takes guys like you, and abuses them because they know nothing. No matter what happens the franchise makes a profit, and covers expenses. The way it is set up is commonly reffered to as a pyramid scheme.

Lesson to be learned for you, is before you sign up for something do some research first. Dont jump at something on instinct because it looks good, learn to break it down. "going to do 80k in business this year" whats the break down of the numbers 

Sure some on here will agree with me, but i think 95% of the guys on here including myself worked for a contractor, learned the trade the right way and then went off on our own. 

I really mean no offense to you in particular, i hope you can find a way out of this and be alright. Seems like you have some initiative. But your "company" does not belong in any professional standing, anywhere. Guys at the top understand systems, that much i will give them. However lowball numbers, zero-poor craftsmanship, untrained guys..you are not contractors im sorry.


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## dmarqu5 (May 30, 2012)

Agreed, we are not contractors. I had time to do my diligence, the company provides a 100+ page franchise disclosure document for me to research. I mainly signed up to gain experience managing a business - and it's really kicking my ass.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Oden said:


> No offense to anyone but even if I wasn't a painter I think I'd know better than to have a couple of college kids working summer jobs painting on my house. It's a bit silly really. Is there a college roofers? College plumbers? College replacement windows for God's sake?


I love this comment! It really helps put things in perspective! College roofers, awesome!


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Have you learned about business? If so, I'd consider it a win. 
Welcome, we've been expecting you.
By the way, keep studying, there is much more to learn.
Glad you posted.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Oden said:


> No offense to anyone but even if I wasn't a painter I think I'd know better than to have a couple of college kids working summer jobs painting on my house. It's a bit silly really. Is there a college roofers? College plumbers? College replacement windows for God's sake?


Bill, 
If you ever end up having back issues again, _College Surgeons_ might be worth looking into. Could save you a few bucks.


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

researchhound said:


> Bill,
> If you ever end up having back issues again, _College Surgeons_ might be worth looking into. Could save you a few bucks.


Hmmmmm

nahhh, I like my well trained surgeon of germanic heritage. 

Scott G. Tromanhauser, MD, MBA, gives a MUCH better sense of trust and confidence than Fat Bot Smitty, CS


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## MonPeintre.ca (Feb 17, 2011)

dmarqu5 said:


> mainly signed up to gain experience managing a business - and it's really kicking my ass.


I think It's à good way to learn a business system, learning how to présent yourself in front of the client and be professionnal ( on the business side). I have been there 10 years ago, but I had to learn the painting side the hard way, making some mistakes. If you can surround yourself with experienced painters, you can learn a lot from them. Sometimes experienced painters are tired of managing the client relationship and are pleased just to be painting. But you need to be willing to pay way more than 9$/hr!!!!
I also think It's à good way to learn a lot by posting on these kind of forum. I dont think college painter should be a direct competitor, since the HO is mainly looking for à low price and would not pay for à professionnal in the first place.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

dmarqu5 said:


> Agreed, we are not contractors. I had time to do my diligence, the company provides a 100+ page franchise disclosure document for me to research. I mainly signed up to gain experience managing a business - and it's really kicking my ass.


Sorry to say, but I think the only thing your are going to learn from CP is how "not" to run a business.

If you use that to your advantage then it will help you.

Good luck for the future I think you will end up ok.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

It's the customers fault, seriously. It's the type of customer who thinks anybody can paint, so why not hire these college kids with no exerience and help them out...

Painting isn't close to surgery in knowledge and skill required, but you still should have people that know whats going on.

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## tmort024 (May 23, 2010)

#1 you're young. If jacks, scaffold and hooks are out then just hop up there, stand/sit on the roof, one hand on upper roof for balance other hand painting. Done! No setup needed. Climb down get paid. This is what I call - boss time. Crazy, awkward, random spots that nobody else wants to do. 1/2 the reason I'm still in the biz is for these spots. Adrenaline junkie getting my fix!

#2 finish college! Get a real job with bennys, 401k, stock options, paid vacations, sick days, stress-free taxes and a SAFE work environment!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

The number one thing is to get home in one piece at the end of the day. Don't take stupid chances. It's not worth it. Figure out how to do it safe of don't do it. Period.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

For the record, those items under the soffits are called corbels.


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## scottjr (Jan 14, 2012)

tmort024 said:


> #1 you're young. If jacks, scaffold and hooks are out then just hop up there, stand/sit on the roof, one hand on upper roof for balance other hand painting. Done! No setup needed. Climb down get paid. This is what I call - boss time. Crazy, awkward, random spots that nobody else wants to do. 1/2 the reason I'm still in the biz is for these spots. Adrenaline junkie getting my fix!
> 
> #2 finish college! Get a real job with bennys, 401k, stock options, paid vacations, sick days, stress-free taxes and a SAFE work environment!


I agree with "boss time". Even though I fly solo, when I have the occasional helper, I am still doing all the crazy stuff.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

I sub out all the roof work. 

They fall, they have insurance...

Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


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## dpeters (Jul 18, 2012)

TJ Paint said:


> I sub out all the roof work.
> 
> They fall, they have insurance...
> 
> Sent from my MB508 using Paint Talk


I sub out all the exterior work period- no ladders, staging, heat, or falling.


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