# Finally tried it.



## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

After reading the comments of how some of you apply aura directly over Sheetrock, I finally gave it a whirl on a job consisting of 6000 sq ft of new board. 

I have to say, the result is quite incredible. It looks, feels, and holds up just as well as a prime and 2 top coat system does. Did a tape test and it's fully adhered. 

Very happy I gave this a try. Huge time saver. Great results.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

wje said:


> After reading the comments of how some of you apply aura directly over Sheetrock, I finally gave it a whirl on a job consisting of 6000 sq ft of new board.
> 
> I have to say, the result is quite incredible. It looks, feels, and holds up just as well as a prime and 2 top coat system does. Did a tape test and it's fully adhered.
> 
> Very happy I gave this a try. Huge time saver. Great results.


Thanks for giving us a report on this, Wes. You know us old graybeards are depending on you young bucks to drag us into this new way of doing things.:yes:

What sheen of Aura did you use?


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## Lambrecht (Feb 8, 2010)

Using Aura = making more money. Many people hear the price and don't realize the value in that price. Depending on the color there have been times when I could easily have gotten away with 1 coat of Aura over NC drywall. I have never had to apply more than 2 coats of any color Aura.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

OK, I do not doubt for one moment that Aura covered and adhered superbly for wje and many others. However, will there be a specification for that in a Division 8 painting specification or a General painting scope 0990 anytime soon? I might be talking out of my butt, so please correct me.


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

Lambrecht said:


> Using Aura = making more money. Many people hear the price and don't realize the value in that price. Depending on the color there have been times when I could easily have gotten away with 1 coat of Aura over NC drywall. I have never had to apply more than 2 coats of any color Aura.


Soleil af-330 over alkyd 024, cured 3 coat plaster from 1947. corona chinex, 3/8 super dooz..not sure why it hatbanded, but it took a third whack. only time ever.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

slinger58 said:


> Thanks for giving us a report on this, Wes. You know us old graybeards are depending on you young bucks to drag us into this new way of doing things.:yes: What sheen of Aura did you use?


I used eggshell, which is why it's such a hard thing for me to believe. 2 coats of flat wouldn't be all that impressive. The true test is when you get an even light reflection off of a sheen. I'm back there tomorrow and will see if I can get some good pictures in the right light


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

wje said:


> I used eggshell, which is why it's such a hard thing for me to believe. 2 coats of flat wouldn't be all that impressive. The true test is when you get an even light reflection off of a sheen. I'm back there tomorrow and will see if I can get some good pictures in the right light


You read my mind, lol. :thumbup:


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## Susan (Nov 29, 2011)

wje said:


> I used eggshell, which is why it's such a hard thing for me to believe. 2 coats of flat wouldn't be all that impressive. The true test is when you get an even light reflection off of a sheen. I'm back there tomorrow and will see if I can get some good pictures in the right light



Same on my project. Equally unimpressed that single time. Otherwise, it's mainly our interior go-to.

Say you had a white over white..would you use the same? If so, why/why not? Coming up on a designer type home, main area with a 40ish foot skylight recess..no kids..no pets, and other than "scrubability", I'm having a hard time justifying/deciding between RS and Aura. The space certainly warrants the best possible, but if we're recoating matte with shell, two coats..almost exact same color, why one and not the other? Thoughts?

Done previously in Regal, old formula, and sheen won't be an issue because we're doubling it..


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow. "Giving it a whirl" over 6000 sq ft. We need to change your handle to Mr. Big Balls. 

Awesome report. Looking forward to the pics!


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

804 Paint said:


> Wow. "Giving it a whirl" over 6000 sq ft. We need to change your handle to Mr. Big Balls. Awesome report. Looking forward to the pics!


Sorry, it's 31 rooms, we tried one to see how it would turn out. Didn't do the whole project and then "hope" lol


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

We tried the same system in matte finish with poor results. The walls looked very dry and the sheen was uneven. The eggshell sheen must have helped in this case.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

wje said:


> Sorry, it's 31 rooms, we tried one to see how it would turn out. Didn't do the whole project and then "hope" lol


Typo 41 rooms


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Csheils said:


> Say you had a white over white..would you use the same? If so, why/why not? Coming up on a designer type home, main area with a 40ish foot skylight recess..no kids..no pets, and other than "scrubability", I'm having a hard time justifying/deciding between RS and Aura. The space certainly warrants the best possible, but if we're recoating matte with shell, two coats..almost exact same color, why one and not the other? Thoughts?


As a BM retailer, I'm all about selling the right tool for the right job. I'm not sure I would sell you Aura in that hypothetical. There's some people who like Aura just for how it goes on the walls (and some who don't) and there's some customers who just want the best possible paint on their walls, so that's fine if that's the case. If you're not worried about fade (since it's white) and not worried about wearing (no kids, etc.) there's very little reason not to use RS. RS even goes a little longer ways.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I've had Aura take more than two coats on several occasions. Mainly with off-whites. Also on front doors at times. 
We did a side by side test of Ext Aura and RS in the same color over similar. The Aura definitely covered better. 

Thanks for the report Wje. Sounds like a big job. I'm sure your bm dealer was happy too! 

What fascinates me is that Aura has been out for several years yet it continues to be BM's best quality paint. I've asked their big dogs about this without much of an answer. How is it that they've come out with several other coatings since then and yet Aura is still the best? Seems like with continued innovation and development they would have even better stuff now. Or are the resins in it still the best available? I'd love to know more. Maybe NACE will chime in?


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks to everyone offering info on this! Super useful and good to know. 




ogre said:


> We tried the same system in matte finish with poor results. The walls looked very dry and the sheen was uneven. The eggshell sheen must have helped in this case.


Matte should have been a better hide than eggshell. Did it still look uneven after curing a couple weeks? The sheen can take a bit to settle fully, especially on matte I've seen.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Damon T said:


> I've had Aura take more than two coats on several occasions. Mainly with off-whites. Also on front doors at times.
> We did a side by side test of Ext Aura and RS in the same color over similar. The Aura definitely covered better.


Regarding this, it's interesting to note that unlike most paint and tint systems, Benjamin Moore mixed with Gennex tints hides better with darker colors than with lighter colors- the opposite of every other tint system in the world afaik. So if you're real worried about hide, a slightly darker color can help a bit more.



Damon T said:


> What fascinates me is that Aura has been out for several years yet it continues to be BM's best quality paint. I've asked their big dogs about this without much of an answer. How is it that they've come out with several other coatings since then and yet Aura is still the best? Seems like with continued innovation and development they would have even better stuff now. Or are the resins in it still the best available? I'd love to know more. Maybe NACE will chime in?


Aura has been updated several times since it's launch, just in case you're not aware. When they're making other coatings, they aren't necessarily shooting for the absolute highest performing paint possible to make. I have a feeling that whenever they find something they think is better, they're just going to continue adding it to the Aura line. It's got the name recognition as one (if not the) best paints available, and it would behoove them to run with that rather than continually replace with "the next big thing." They have the foresight to know that sticking to known labels is better than throwing a new product at consumers every week in the long run.

Since the resins are all in-house rather than purchased from other vendors as is the case with most other major companies, it's highly likely they're the best available with current technology, and I'd assume again that if they ever find something better it'd just be added to the line.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I've had good luck with the matte myself. Both on jobs with heavy patch work and small scale NC drywall. Seeing what one full coat of Aura can do on a wall helps me understand a little more why BM doesn't list the use of a primer as a recommended system on the TDS. It's hard to see what a primer step would add to it.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Regarding this, it's interesting to note that unlike most paint and tint systems, Benjamin Moore mixed with Gennex tints hides better with darker colors than with lighter colors- the opposite of every other tint system in the world afaik. So if you're real worried about hide, a slightly darker color can help a bit more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most of the product changes lately have been to update products to use the Gennex colorants. You aren't supposed to use the old product lines with the newer gennex colorants or visa versa, although I never could find out why. Again from my limited paint chemical knowledge, I believe it has something about the chemical dispersant used. I "think" they took a very concentrated dispersant out of the colorant to maximize the low voc properties of the colorant, then put a much less concentrated dispersant in each can of paint. Again this is my "big foot" type theory, so don't spank me if I'm wrong.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't know why either but it makes a big difference. I got a gallon of exterior Aura one time that accidentally got tinted with the old tints. It was terrible, wouldn't cover at all and the sheen was compromised. Was supposed to be low luster but it turned out flat. 

Btw, what is the old BM tint system called? I've been trying to think of the name all morning. Seems like it starts with a "t".


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

This job is a building of dorms for a really expensive private school. Paint was specced because the house keepers have been having major problems with midgeade paint wiping rigt off the walls. We didn't spec the paint, just using. What we were told. No system was specced so we have it a whirl. 

On a side note, a dorm room being repainted over existing eggshell uses exactly 1.5 gallons where a new rooms walls take exactly 2 full gallons of aura. Both 2 coats. The extra $33 I spend on material is cheaper than a gallon of primer, and the labor to apply it. In this case I am saving money and time by spending more on material. 

Paint used to date after 7 days here is 50 gallons of eggshell on walls, and 14 gallons of Matt on ceilings. My dealer had tp to be loving this job at $67/ gallon my price.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> I don't know why either but it makes a big difference. I got a gallon of exterior Aura one time that accidentally got tinted with the old tints. It was terrible, wouldn't cover at all and the sheen was compromised. Was supposed to be low luster but it turned out flat.
> 
> Btw, what is the old BM tint system called? I've been trying to think of the name all morning. Seems like it starts with a "t".


Color Preview (the same name as one of their color collections, if I'm thinking straight). And yah, they should NEVER be mixed with the wrong product, it makes a massive difference.

In the case of Aura with ColorLock, the tints molecules actually bond with the paint molecules, and this absolutely can't happen with the old tints.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Color Preview (the same name as one of their color collections, if I'm thinking straight). And yah, they should NEVER be mixed with the wrong product, it makes a massive difference.
> 
> 
> 
> In the case of Aura with ColorLock, the tints molecules actually bond with the paint molecules, and this absolutely can't happen with the old tints.



Can you clarify what you mean? Are you saying Aura should only be tinted with Gennex, or that Aura should only be tinted to "Aura colors" (Color Stories, Williamsburg, Affinity), or that other lines should never be tinted to the aforementioned color collections?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

This wall was done with Aura. Almost flew with one coat. Then they changed the color to a deeper redder orange so I went with Ultraspec figuring the wall was already colored. Bad choice 3 coats and the cut is still soso.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have used several whites with Aura that had poor hide but any time I see an orange yellow, red, or ultra deep blue color choice I usually don't even bother with another paint. Its the best out there for those hard to use colors.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

ogre said:


> We tried the same system in matte finish with poor results. The walls looked very dry and the sheen was uneven. The eggshell sheen must have helped in this case.


What is the sheen level of their matte? I'm having a hard time understanding how you could have uneven sheen with a low angular sheen product. 

I would lean more towards poor texture/drywall or application (no offense intended).


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have seen it as well with matte. I think the higher sheen is just better at sealing and equalizing porosity.


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## Hines Painting (Jun 22, 2013)

straight_lines said:


> I have seen it as well with matte. I think the higher sheen is just better at sealing and equalizing porosity.


Weird. I've put garbage flat paints in garages 1 and done and never had problems, even with medium toned colors. 

I've always been under the impression that the main reason you prime new texture/drywall is for sheen holdout, not adhesion.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Don't mind the over sanded drywall board, nothing to do with us. Here's a few pics. Pretty overcast today so lighting isn't perfect.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback Woodford. And thanks again Wje. Super helpful with the material usage numbers. 
I've been repainting my interior with Aura Matte linen white. Love the finish. Advance satin on the trim. 508 ceiling paint for lids


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

wje said:


> Don't mind the over sanded drywall board, nothing to do with us. Here's a few pics. Pretty overcast today so lighting isn't perfect.



Looks like money in the bank!


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

804 Paint said:


> Can you clarify what you mean? Are you saying Aura should only be tinted with Gennex, or that Aura should only be tinted to "Aura colors" (Color Stories, Williamsburg, Affinity), or that other lines should never be tinted to the aforementioned color collections?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com



The Aura and other newer coatings should only be tinted with Gennex colorants. The old Universal colorants are not to be used. 
They had several color lines that started out Aura only and gradually they get assimilated into the other Gennex lines as well. I think CSP still is Aura only.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

It seems like Aura likes to be applied over itself as well. We have had sheen issues with matte over other paints of the same color.

For us, yellows are still a problem with Aura as well.

Over raw drywall, the first coat seems to use a ton of paint, but that surface is well sealed, better than most drywall primers IMHO.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Damon T said:


> The Aura and other newer coatings should only be tinted with Gennex colorants. The old Universal colorants are not to be used.
> They had several color lines that started out Aura only and gradually they get assimilated into the other Gennex lines as well. I think CSP still is Aura only.



I understand that, but the way it was worded seemed confusing so I wasn't sure if something else was meant. 

Isn't SuperSpec pretty much the only thing using universal? And I guess Regal Classic if your store actually has any. 


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

DeanV said:


> It seems like Aura likes to be applied over itself as well. We have had sheen issues with matte over other paints of the same color. For use, yellows are still a problem with Aura as well. Over raw drywall, the first coat seems to use a tion of paint, but that surface is well sealed, better than most drywall primers IMHO.


Based on our experience this past week, a dorm room took 3/4 of a gallon to one coat cut and roll over existing eggshell. 

Take us to the new fully sheet rocked rooms the first coat took an additional half gallon. With my price that's about $38 more paint than the already painted rooms, but that $38 more than makes up for itself as you can count it as the cost of primer, and labor to prime. 

It's been a fun experiment


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We have a new construction home coming up that we are not able to primer before the trim carpentry gets done (it is 3 hours away and I do not have time to head up there to do it).

We have it spec'd for Aura. I am considering shooting the lids like normal, but 2 coating Aura on the walls and skipping the prime coat. I do not want to spray primer on walls after the trim is installed.


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

DeanV said:


> We have a new construction home coming up that we are not able to primer before the trim carpentry gets done (it is 3 hours away and I do not have time to head up there to do it).
> 
> We have it spec'd for Aura. I am considering shooting the lids like normal, but 2 coating Aura on the walls and skipping the prime coat. I do not want to spray primer on walls after the trim is installed.


Do you run into problems when caulking the trim to the raw walls/mud?
My friend said they lacquer undercoated the trim then caulked so they didn't wipe out the mud.


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## ogre (Oct 25, 2007)

I found that aura matte over aura matted leaves a dry looking finish on thirsty walls. Sometimes when going over eggshell, i like the way my first coat looks better than my second.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I caulk after priming trim, so drywall would be sealed. 

I have not had issues with 2 coats of Aura matte over anything.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Lambrecht said:


> Using Aura = making more money. Many people hear the price and don't realize the value in that price. Depending on the color there have been times when I could easily have gotten away with 1 coat of Aura over NC drywall. I have never had to apply more than 2 coats of any color Aura.


Deep reds we have 3-4 coats to get true coverage. Some greens as well I like Aura great paint Regal and Ultra use the same colorant and cover very good as well. In both photos we used Aura took 3 coats minimum for true hide. Even so much better than days of old .. 

Just did a huge sunroom and family room with BM heritage red in Aura egg took 4 coats over bare GWB maybe get away with 3 but not 2 no way. 

In the photos I attached took multiple coats to cover


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Idk Nick, you might try putting a more paint on. I'm wrapping up a job with Aura matte this evening. Did great in two like it always does.






















Crappy pics. It's dark and I'm ready to go home.


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## jprefect (Mar 4, 2015)

After having a huge success with Aura as a flagship product, it seems like BM is using the things they developed for that product to update DOWN the product line. For example, the UltraSpec is updated using some of the innovations developed for Aura, including the new pigment system, I think. 

I have Aura EXT (from whatever year they introduced that, I think) two coats over bare wood. Still looks great, several years later (4-5? 6?) A bright bright green, a dark hunter green, and a black accent. All in a softgloss. 



Woodford said:


> Regarding this, it's interesting to note that unlike most paint and tint systems, Benjamin Moore mixed with Gennex tints hides better with darker colors than with lighter colors- the opposite of every other tint system in the world afaik. So if you're real worried about hide, a slightly darker color can help a bit more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Idk Nick, you might try putting a more paint on. I'm wrapping up a job with Aura matte this evening. Did great in two like it always does.
> View attachment 42297
> 
> 
> ...


Used it many many many times was one of the first in my area to use it. The matte which is really a flat does cover better than egg or satin semi etc. we have used red especially cottage and heritage many times very popular here in New England, in egg finish in absolutely 100 percent not cover in 2 sometimes not in 3. Again matte is flat as we all know a flat will hide much better than a sheen finish.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Used it many many many times was one of the first in my area to use it. The matte which is really a flat does cover better than egg or satin semi etc. we have used red especially cottage and heritage many times very popular here in New England, in egg finish in absolutely 100 percent not cover in 2 sometimes not in 3. Again matte is flat as we all know a flat will hide much better than a sheen finish.


I haven't used the higher sheen lines on walls yet outside of a few scattered bathrooms. The matte seems to do good in all but the highest use bathrooms.

Yeah, it's pretty flat. It doesn't seem to flash out bad like some other mattes. It's flashed a few times on me, but not often.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Aura is stellar, yet Natura is divine. Goodnight, fellow pilgrims


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Used it many many many times was one of the first in my area to use it. The matte which is really a flat does cover better than egg or satin semi etc. we have used red especially cottage and heritage many times very popular here in New England, in egg finish in absolutely 100 percent not cover in 2 sometimes not in 3. Again matte is flat as we all know a flat will hide much better than a sheen finish.



Nick
I'm confused. Are you saying in eggshell finish 100% of the time it doesn't cover in 2 with red? And sometimes not in 3?


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Damon T said:


> Nick I'm confused. Are you saying in eggshell finish 100% of the time it doesn't cover in 2 with red? And sometimes not in 3?


I almost exclusively use aura bath and spa matte finish when we use aura. My dealer doesn't carry aura in a matte, just aura bath and spa. I can definately say with confidence that it covers amazing in 2 coats every time no matter the colour, but I can agree with nick that the eggshell isn't as good with coverage. We have had to 3 coat a lot of times with eggshell, where we could easily do 2 with bath and spa matte.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Yes Damon I am I've used Aura since before it was released to public and stores. Have a long relationship with BM for many years. In pics I attached we had to do 4 coats to get full coverage never would it cover in 2 with a deep red. Sometimes you won't know till you leave for the day and come back and you can still see through the color depending on the angle of light. 

Does it cover better in matte (flat) yes but even so we never just do 2 in deep reds or greens. In photos I attched we did 3 full coats on the green accent wall, 3 on the purple walls and 4 on the red. It's still much better than days of old. I'm a big Aura fan it has its place and I use it outside and inside. That's my experience . Not saying anyone else is wrong I just know what we do and use on a almost weekly basis . Just did a Fenway park BoSox room we used Rs and Aura took multiple coats of the navy, green, and reds.


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## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Doesn't BM specify a tinted primer for colors such as Heritage Red, even when using Aura?? 


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

804 Paint said:


> Doesn't BM specify a tinted primer for colors such as Heritage Red, even when using Aura??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Yep, they do. My BM quit carrying it because they couldn't sell it. I bought some of the Yellow and the Red color foundation on clearance. Haven't tried either yet. Doesn't seem necessary, I get good touch ups after two coats anyway. 

I should try it really.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

They used to stock the grey hide hide fresh start as well but nor more than was a great base high hiding primer.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

804 Paint said:


> Can you clarify what you mean? Are you saying Aura should only be tinted with Gennex, or that Aura should only be tinted to "Aura colors" (Color Stories, Williamsburg, Affinity), or that other lines should never be tinted to the aforementioned color collections?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Sorry for lack of clarity there: Aura should only be tinted with Gennex. It's not any matter which collection the color comes from (though note that none of the other lines should use Color Stories- if your local store tells you that's fine, they're lying because they think you won't pay for the Aura. Don't do it. The color may not be right and you could run into performance issues).



Damon T said:


> The Aura and other newer coatings should only be tinted with Gennex colorants. The old Universal colorants are not to be used.
> They had several color lines that started out Aura only and gradually they get assimilated into the other Gennex lines as well. I think CSP still is Aura only.


Yup, right you are Damon 



DeanV said:


> It seems like Aura likes to be applied over itself as well. We have had sheen issues with matte over other paints of the same color.
> 
> For us, yellows are still a problem with Aura as well.
> 
> Over raw drywall, the first coat seems to use a ton of paint, but that surface is well sealed, better than most drywall primers IMHO.


Yellows and red are normally both spec'd to have a color foundation under them. Majority of people won't buy them, but it could reduce your number of topcoats to one with trouble colors.



804 Paint said:


> I understand that, but the way it was worded seemed confusing so I wasn't sure if something else was meant.
> 
> Isn't SuperSpec pretty much the only thing using universal? And I guess Regal Classic if your store actually has any.
> 
> ...


There's a fair few products on Universal- Satin Impervo, lots of Super Spec lines, Regal Classic, etc. Many of us have cut them all out- the only reason I've got the old colorants is to tint deck stain at this point.



804 Paint said:


> Doesn't BM specify a tinted primer for colors such as Heritage Red, even when using Aura??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Yeh, and as mentioned above that may reduce the necessary number of coats by a few. I've not had a customer had to do more than 3 coats with Aura (ever) regardless of what was under it or what color it was. Obviously YMMV, but that's been my experience.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Yea what do I know I must be doing it all wrong. Here's another Aura job actually one of our very first ones. A Repaint over existing walls still took 3 and 4 on red. Could it have passed with 2-3 maybe . But to my eye it need the extra coat.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

FYI the red walls I am rolling in my previous photo was over bare GWB and no way it would cover in 2 and 3 was iffy. But again what do I know. Back in the day we dused to paint 2 drug store chains here in New England they used red accent walls and stripes in every store . Was back in the early 80"s. We used a foundation base coat of grey most times then multiple coats of the topcoat . Now does Aura cover better now abosolutley as does the regal and the ultra . Even so for complete hide it takes what it takes.
But again what do I know??


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

When I have used the foundation color primers, it still took 3 coats total. I would rather do three coats of Aura than 1 prime and 2 Aura, so I just do that if needed instead. 


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I had a local university using Aura for their dark purple accent walls in all of their buildings, and what I noticed, and this holds true for just about any paint used for drastic color changes, is that it is easier to plan on putting on an extra coat than to try to get the absolutely perfect coats needed to get by without the extra coat. In other words, you can actually waste more time and effort trying to get absolutely perfect, even coverage on 1 or 2 coats then if you just plan on using the extra coat. I even explain this to DIY'ers who expect to get one coat coverage. It's easier to do two good coats than it is to do one absolutely perfect coat. Just take away all the frustration of flashing, holidays, skippers, roll marks, whatever the problem du jour is and just plan on putting an extra coat on.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> FYI the red walls I am rolling in my previous photo was over bare GWB and no way it would cover in 2 and 3 was iffy. But again what do I know. Back in the day we dused to paint 2 drug store chains here in New England they used red accent walls and stripes in every store . Was back in the early 80"s. We used a foundation base coat of grey most times then multiple coats of the topcoat . Now does Aura cover better now abosolutley as does the regal and the ultra . Even so for complete hide it takes what it takes.
> But again what do I know??


I don't think anyone's discounting your experiences Nick. They're just saying what their experiences have been. If what you're doing works for you and you're happy with it, then that's awesome!


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> I don't think anyone's discounting your experiences Nick.



Not at all, we all paint differently. This comes up a lot, especially when we talk about hiding power and dark colors. There have been many threads where we've been all over the place on what covers what and how many coats. There are simply too many variables to expect much consistency in that regard.


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

Jmayspaint said:


> Not at all, we all paint differently. This comes up a lot, especially when we talk about hiding power and dark colors. There have been many threads where we've been all over the place on what covers what and how many coats. There are simply too many variables to expect much consistency in that regard.


Yep, I'm strictly talking cloud white eggshell here over gwb so nothing crazy here. Never tried a deep colour over gwb.


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## George Z (Apr 15, 2007)

Different experiences for different people.
For us, we can get away with one sometimes but we do two anyway.
We never needed more than 2 coats of Aura for any of the usual difficult colours including reds.
Some off whites were more difficult than reds for some reason.


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## matt19422 (Oct 2, 2009)

I've run a boat load of Aura, once in a while I'll get an off white that just won't cover. I think the last one was marscapone. It had a blue undertone to it until 3rd coat.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Yea must be the red colors me and all the other contactors I know who can't get the deep colors to cover in 2... Maybe you guys who can , should make a video show us all how you do it...


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

matt19422 said:


> I've run a boat load of Aura, once in a while I'll get an off white that just won't cover. I think the last one was marscapone. It had a blue undertone to it until 3rd coat.


We used that Marscapone on colonial style exterior spindles. Over a medium gray.:no: Not happening in 2 coats. I think it took 3 plus a touchup coat. Hard to load paint up on round spindles.

Caliente has been a 3 coat color when we used it as well in Aura (it is an Affinity color like the Marscapone).


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodford said:


> I don't think anyone's discounting your experiences Nick. They're just saying what their experiences have been. If what you're doing works for you and you're happy with it, then that's awesome!


 Sorry I don't know a single contactor who uses deep red or greens etc who can get it to cover I mean cover in 2.. But like I said what do I know?? 
So forgive but I do discount the ones who say they do.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Sorry I don't know a single contactor who uses deep red or greens etc who can get it to cover I mean cover in 2.. But like I said what do I know??
> So forgive but I do discount the ones who say they do.


So you're going to discount a whole thread's worth of people's input just because your mileage has varied? Forgive me saying so but that's pretty closed minded.

I can respect that with your application methods and context it takes more than two coats, but saying it always does for everyone or else people are lying...

Gennex colorants tint better in darker colors than lighter. That's not a marketing spiel; it may not even be a good thing. You can see the other people here saying they have trouble with lighter colors comparatively.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

There is little doubt that a 3.5 mil (dry) film of Aura will give complete hide with pretty much any color, hence their "never more than two coats" guarantee. The number of applications necessary to achieve that film thickness is the variable.


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## playedout6 (Apr 27, 2009)

Wes...have you ever used any Sico Evolution products for those tricky colors or the Sico exterior line for Reds ??? http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Products/Exterior-Paint.aspx#Satin


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## wje (Apr 11, 2009)

playedout6 said:


> Wes...have you ever used any Sico Evolution products for those tricky colors or the Sico exterior line for Reds ??? http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Products/Exterior-Paint.aspx#Satin


There isn't muh sico available in my area. Closest I think is 45 mins away.. Unless it's available at a box store but I don't usually go to the boxes


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

This took 3 coats of BM 353 yellow rose. Put on heavy enough that Aura wanted to sag on the roll. You can see the colors we were trying to cover showing through the first coat here. A good way to tell the true hiding power. 

Aura eggshell. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

That covered pretty good on the first coat. Surprised it took three. Yellows are hard tho. I'm using aura on our next job after having RS not cover well enough with HC-6 yesterday. I just hate when it takes a little more than a gallon and you have to get another gallon or a spendy little quart for that last bit. It's so much easier buying a 5 of ultra spec than a 5 of aura lol


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

What I often find is that last little bit of color showing through is the hardest to hide for some reason.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm sure that yellow recommended color foundation for it, out of curiosity, did your BM retailer mention that to you when they sold it?


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

No they did not. It did not have the low hide triangle on the color deck. Foundation has always needed two top coats when I have used it anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

DeanV said:


> No they did not. It did not have the low hide triangle on the color deck. Foundation has always needed two top coats when I have used it anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmm, right you are, just looked it up. Ah well, what do I know :thumbup:


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

I wish there was some recompense when aura colors don't cover in two coats. They should be held to their advertising. Instead of "oh well ". Gripe over.


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## Criard (Nov 23, 2013)

My BM computer is showing 353 Yellow Roses as a 2X base for aura eggshell. 
Gives me the 6 minute shake time notice but no primer recommendation, not that I've ever seen one pop up for a 2X color anyway.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Damon T said:


> I wish there was some recompense when aura colors don't cover in two coats. They should be held to their advertising. Instead of "oh well ". Gripe over.


Do you have a piece of advertising that says Aura will cover anything in one or two coats? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I haven't seen it.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

http://youtu.be/09DrKHoW_jc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> Do you have a piece of advertising that says Aura will cover anything in one or two coats? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I haven't seen it.


They may have changed the wording there. A quick browse on the web site and I'm not seeing it anymore either. It used to say "never more than two coats even in the deepest colors" with a caveat about some colors needing the foundation. Now is says "covers like no other, even in the deepest shades" 

I noticed they stopped calling it paint&primer too. Lol.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Jmayspaint said:


> They may have changed the wording there. A quick browse on the web site and I'm not seeing it anymore either. It used to say "never more than two coats even in the deepest colors" with a caveat about some colors needing the foundation. Now is says "covers like no other, even in the deepest shades"
> 
> I noticed they stopped calling it paint&primer too. Lol.


Still says paint and primer on the can actually.

The reality of it is, as I've mentioned before, there's no "primer" in the paint. That's impossible. A better term for the idea would be "self-priming." They determined it has the adhesion and the sealing and the hide to not need a primer.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

DeanV said:


> http://youtu.be/09DrKHoW_jc
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair enough. Have you tried talking to your rep when it didn't cover in 2? That being said, I still have yet to have anyone in my store report it not covering in two when used with foundation when required.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

We just did carrot stick. We used the foundation coat but had to double prime where the medium dark blue color overlapped with a bright yellow. Otherwise the Aura could not finish the hiding over the blue portion. For this color, Aura did work in one cost over primer but primer needed 2 coats. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Tbh I wish none of the paint companies would make any claims about any amount of coats covering. There's just too many variables, and you always look a fool when you claim that as a performance feature.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> Tbh I wish none of the paint companies would make any claims about any amount of coats covering. There's just too many variables, and you always look a fool when you claim that as a performance feature.


And just about every paint company is having problems with the lo voc bright yellow pigments not hiding.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Proalliance coatings said:


> And just about every paint company is having problems with the lo voc bright yellow pigments not hiding.


Though, to be fair, I did get two coat coverage with Regal Select on bare drywall when I did some in house testing with a bright yellow a couple weeks ago. It's a crapshoot.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Woodford said:


> Do you have a piece of advertising that says Aura will cover anything in one or two coats? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I haven't seen it.



That was the promo when it came out. I didn't save the ad. Why would it be in the collective consciousness of painters if it wasn't promoted ? 
We were a test market for Details, the precursor to Aura. That was also touted to cover in two.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

I remember when aura came out people were upset here that it took two coats and we had to keep pointing to the literature that said "never more than two coats."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> That was the promo when it came out. I didn't save the ad. Why would it be in the collective consciousness of painters if it wasn't promoted ?
> We were a test market for Details, the precursor to Aura. That was also touted to cover in two.


Yeah they did promote it that way in the beginning. Every new paint I have seen introduced in 30 years has promoted 1-2 coats over anything. Yet the paints that actually do, no one uses. In fact, I found an add for Kem-tone from 1948 that says it will stick to anything and cover anything in one coat. Low odor and scrubbable too! Even on Wallpaper.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Damon T said:


> That was the promo when it came out. I didn't save the ad. Why would it be in the collective consciousness of painters if it wasn't promoted ?
> We were a test market for Details, the precursor to Aura. That was also touted to cover in two.


The same reason people think paint and primer in one is a real concept, presumably.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

DeanV said:


> I remember when aura came out people were upset here that it took two coats and we had to keep pointing to the literature that said "never more than two coats."
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, remember those cost comparison charts that supposedly showed how using Aura could save money on a paint job because of labor savings. It pretty much implied that using Aura could save you a whole coats worth of labor on your paint job. 

While that certainly can be true at times, it's far from a sure thing. Haven't seen those charts around in a while either.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I still sell Aura as a cost saver (or at least equivalizer) for less coats in most cases. Generally speaking, if anyone feel Aura needs one more coat (however many that may be total), that same painter would feel a lower quality coating would need 2 more. Again, very generally speaking and I don't guarantee anything, but I've never had to eat those words yet. People are always super happy about the quality of the coating. Being the only BM store for 50-75 miles, I've got painters who regularly drive 25+ miles to pick up my paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodford said:


> I still sell Aura as a cost saver (or at least equivalizer) for less coats in most cases. Generally speaking, if anyone feel Aura needs one more coat (however many that may be total), that same painter would feel a lower quality coating would need 2 more. Again, very generally speaking and I don't guarantee anything, but I've never had to eat those words yet. People are always super happy about the quality of the coating. Being the only BM store for 50-75 miles, I've got painters who regularly drive 25+ miles to pick up my paint.


Fyi, I had a painter show me four coats of emerald dark green on a beige yesterday that looked like hell. He thought it would probably take another 2-3 coats. Why, why, why? Aura would have been three coats tops.

Why? Because another "educated" homeowner insisted that Emerald was the best covering paint there was. Now he is eating 4-5 coats worth of labor on the job.

Marquee would have been 2-3 coats even.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Proalliance coatings said:


> Fyi, I had a painter show me four coats of emerald dark green on a beige yesterday that looked like hell. He thought it would probably take another 2-3 coats. Why, why, why? Aura would have been three coats tops.
> 
> Now he is eating 4-5 coats worth of labor



Why? Most likely because the guy's "coat" is only a mil or two thick. 

The thing with Aura, and this is why I think it's so popular, is that it does well even when under applied. A 2mil wet coat of Aura will actually cover a slight color change, and two 2mil coats will do a nice job most of the time. Another well liked result of this is better footage. You can stretch it way past the footage range and it still does good. 

The thicker viscosity of Aura also makes it naturally flow off the brush/roller thicker. The same brush technique that might produce a 2mil coat of a thinner bodied paint will put on about 3mil of Aura. 

This quality is part of why I had such a hard time figuring out Aura (still working on it ). I had spent so much time developing techniques for full coat application with other paints (like Emerald) and when I tried to use those techniques with Aura they didn't work. 

Is there really Any paint in 2015 that won't cover well in two coats if applied to spec? Not that I've tried. Even Walmart paint will cover if you can get enough of it on the wall. 

It's part of the lack of standards in the trade, particularly in residential. There is actually more to coatings application than smearing paint on a wall, but the vast majority of residential painters I've been around and met (present company excluded) never think past that, and really have no idea how much paint it takes to achieve a 4mil wet coat. It's a LOT. 

IME, Emerald is basically equal to Aura in hide when applied to spec. The thing is that it's kinda thin. Certainly thin in comparison to Aura. It takes a lot more effort to get film build than it does with Aura, making it less user friendly as far as hide goes. 

So yeah, your right. The same guy using the same techniques is very likely to get better results with Aura. But this is more of a result of application techniques than it is capabilities of the material.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

It's gonna take more time to put Emerald on, so you're still at a net positive with the Aura anyways, even if you actually think everything else covers as well (which I don't), and hides as well (which I don't), and you think every other characteristic of every other paint is the same as Auras (which I don't). So even if all of that were true, Aura's still gonna come out on top 

But I can tell you right now that you're wrong about the Emerald being equal to the Aura in hide- there's mechanical reasons for this due to BM's tinting system. It's going to be different in different colors. In some colors it may be equal, and it's not impossible that in some colors Emerald would be better, but the tint systems are just not equivalent in how the hide works. With Gennex tints, unlike traditional tint systems, darker colors actually hide better than lighter colors. In traditional systems, lighter colors hide better. There's no way in hell the two are the same.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

Woodford said:


> It's gonna take more time to put Emerald on, so you're still at a net positive with the Aura anyways, even if you actually think everything else covers as well (which I don't), and hides as well (which I don't), and you think every other characteristic of every other paint is the same as Auras (which I don't). So even if all of that were true, Aura's still gonna come out on top
> 
> But I can tell you right now that you're wrong about the Emerald being equal to the Aura in hide- there's mechanical reasons for this due to BM's tinting system. It's going to be different in different colors. In some colors it may be equal, and it's not impossible that in some colors Emerald would be better, but the tint systems are just not equivalent in how the hide works. With Gennex tints, unlike traditional tint systems, darker colors actually hide better than lighter colors. In traditional systems, lighter colors hide better. There's no way in hell the two are the same.


I'm sure your right, and I shouldn't say the two are "equal". There does seem to be a very real improvement in technology with the Gennex colorant system. I'm a BM fan boy myself. 

I just get frustrated with these horror stories of 5 coats needed for coverage, etc.. What a lot of people don't realize is that one application does Not necessarily mean one coat. In fact, unless close attention is paid it almost never does.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

I think the waterborne colorants are definitely the next step for the industry, but there's still some work to be done for sure. Sounds like Gennex won't be the only one in the market soon, so we'll see how it works out down the road.

Honestly, I just hate all claims about amount of coats and hide... it's always utterly subjective and utterly dependent on circumstance. Substrate, applicators, application, weather, the price of cow manure in Nova Scotia... all have an impact on the hide. There's no way to predict it perfectly, no matter how good the paint.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Jmayspaint said:


> Why? Most likely because the guy's "coat" is only a mil or two thick.
> 
> The thing with Aura, and this is why I think it's so popular, is that it does well even when under applied. A 2mil wet coat of Aura will actually cover a slight color change, and two 2mil coats will do a nice job most of the time. Another well liked result of this is better footage. You can stretch it way past the footage range and it still does good.
> 
> ...


I've had similar results with Emerald. And you are correct that there is a certain coating thickness that is required to get it to hide. The problem is that it is so difficult to apply it at that thickness that it kind of makes you wonder why it is so expensive, doesn't it? It could definitely be caused by his application technic, but using it side by side with one of my products tinted to the same color, using the exact same brush and roller combo, as well as 4 mil. wet drawdowns on an opacity chart, I believe it is quite inferior to any paint using the latest generation colorants. Aura uses Gennex, and there is only one other paint brand that uses the same basic technology and that is the California Trillion colorant. When applied side by side under the exact conditions, Emerald looks to be just another hype job by SW. Behr Marquee will hide much better when tinted to a similar color when used in exact conditions.

The fact that he has used 5 gallons so far to paint a 12'x15' bedroom kind of leads me to believe that he is putting it on fairly thick. The first coat looks like a green exterior toner. Over beige.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

5 gallons for a 12x15 bedroom is crazy! With aura it can sometimes be done in one, two at the most.


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## PremierPaintingMa (Nov 30, 2014)

5 gallons
maybe 12x15x28.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodford said:


> So you're going to discount a whole thread's worth of people's input just because your mileage has varied? Forgive me saying so but that's pretty closed minded.
> 
> I can respect that with your application methods and context it takes more than two coats, but saying it always does for everyone or else people are lying...
> 
> Gennex colorants tint better in darker colors than lighter. That's not a marketing spiel; it may not even be a good thing. You can see the other people here saying they have trouble with lighter colors comparatively.


Yes I am absolutely I paint every day do you??? It doesn't matter what application methods deep reds, greens do NOT cover in 2 coats period. Tell you what I'll make a video showing my application methods and deep colors not covering . The two colors in this pic did not cover in 2 either so what did we do wrong??? Wrong roller nap? Cloudy day? Wrong music playing on job??? You tell me seeing how you think you know it all?? :notworthy:


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Actually, I don't feel the need to engage with you if you're going to act like this. Cheers.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Damon T said:


> 5 gallons for a 12x15 bedroom is crazy! With aura it can sometimes be done in one, two at the most.


I gave the guy a wet mil thickness gauge to check his application thickness when he puts on his hopefully last coats. I haven't heard anything more from him. I asked him to e-mail me pix so i could post them but i haven't gotten them yet. As soon as I do I will post.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Yes I am absolutely I paint every day do you??? It doesn't matter what application methods deep reds, greens do NOT cover in 2 coats period. Tell you what I'll make a video showing my application methods and deep colors not covering . The two colors in this pic did not cover in 2 either so what did we do wrong??? Wrong roller nap? Cloudy day? Wrong music playing on job??? You tell me seeing how you think you know it all?? :notworthy:


My personal belief is that there are just too many variables for any paint company to claim 1 or 2 coat coverage all the time. Some are completely beyond the control of the paint company or the painter. No paint brand or pigment type can always give 2 coat coverage every time. It defies physics. But, the Gennex colorant does typically give a much stronger hiding power than competitive colorants. If you had used most competitive paints, it might have taken another coat, you just don't know. But I believe that by using Aura, tinted with Gennex, you would have saved at least one coat.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm sure with Aura it has a lot to do with the specific color your using. Some reds are going to cover better than others. We use Spanish red about %90 of the time (designer spec), it's a deep earthy red that doesn't call for the foundation. It has always done well for us. Brighter reds are probably more challenging. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

Woodford said:


> Actually, I don't feel the need to engage with you if you're going to act like this. Cheers.


To clarify, Nick, I've been respectful of your opinion throughout this thread even though I may not share the same beliefs as you do. You, however, can't seem to return that professional courtesy. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way or whatever the problem is.


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## thinkpainting/nick (Dec 25, 2012)

Woodford said:


> To clarify, Nick, I've been respectful of your opinion throughout this thread even though I may not share the same beliefs as you do. You, however, can't seem to return that professional courtesy. I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way or whatever the problem is.


Forget about it no hard feelings here I stand by what I know and what I said. I'll getbthat video up ASAP. I'm a huge fan of BM and have been for many years but I'm also a guy who tells it like it is whatever the product and whoever the manufacturer is. One of my best buds owns a BM store actually two he just opened another one. He never tells his customers Aura will cover in 2 it all depends on the color and the sheen.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Forget about it no hard feelings here I stand by what I know and what I said. I'll getbthat video up ASAP. I'm a huge fan of BM and have been for many years but I'm also a guy who tells it like it is whatever the product and whoever the manufacturer is. One of my best buds owns a BM store actually two he just opened another one. He never tells his customers Aura will cover in 2 it all depends on the color and the sheen.


And what we're painting over. Previously painted surface? Over flat paint or sheen? Smooth drywall, wood, block? The variables are what make it impossible to predict how many coats to cover ("hide", Gough). 

And then there is the question of "is it covered?" (hidden?, Gough), and that becomes a question of personal opinion.


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## DrakeB (Jun 6, 2011)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> He never tells his customers Aura will cover in 2 it all depends on the color and the sheen.


Nor do I, and that's a very smart policy to have. Cheers.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

thinkpainting/nick said:


> Forget about it no hard feelings here I stand by what I know and what I said. I'll getbthat video up ASAP. I'm a huge fan of BM and have been for many years but I'm also a guy who tells it like it is whatever the product and whoever the manufacturer is. One of my best buds owns a BM store actually two he just opened another one. He never tells his customers Aura will cover in 2 it all depends on the color and the sheen.




As does any other paint regardless of what Lowe's and Home Depot say. But then again, they have no personal accountability like the owner of a BM store would have.


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