# Oak door and jamb stain and finish



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

It has been a long time since I have stained and finished wood. I need to give a quote to stain a new oak door, jamb and trim. This is in a 1000 sq ft office that is part of a 30,000 sq ft office bldg. The owner, after showing me the door (pun not intended), referred me to the future occupant for staining and finishing this door.

She (the future occupant) emailed me regarding this. She said that she had picked up a quart of Minwax Wood Finish Penetrating Stain in golden oak as well as a quart of Minwax Polycrylic in clear satin. She did mention that she was open to other suggestions as far as stain and finish go.

I am wondering if I should just go along with what she has purchased to keep things simple. Here is the door:

























Obviously the trim has not been installed yet. Should that be stained (and finished?) before or after it has been installed?

Any thoughts? I want to do a decent job so as to possibly get future work.

futtyos


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Throw some mineral spirits on there and see if she likes that 'natural' look without stain.



Otherwise:

Seal with Benite (will have a similar look to wet mineral spirits). 24 hours dry.

Stain with Lenmar, Old Masters, General finishes... Don't really care for minwax but if they already have it no reason to throw it away other than I think its rather low quality.


Ditch the polycrylic, using a quality finish. Staysclear, Old masters, General finishes etc... basically anything else.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Minwax oil stain is good for oak. Almost fool-proof, will look good wiping on. 

Minwax Oil based poly would be a better choice than polycrylic. I think oil based poly looks better as it ages (ambers out, enhances wood grain), and is also easy to apply.

Tape glass first.
Maybe Clean wood with lacquer thinner to remove contaminants/ light sanding prior to stain.
Wipe on stain, remove excess after 5-10 min. (Let dry 24 hours)


Brush on first coat varnish
Lightly sand between coats with 320.
apply remaining coats (thinned with oms) using 000 steel wool, and wipe excess directionally with rag.


Pre-finish trim before installing. Fill nail holes with colored putty.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

Just slap on a couple of coats of Gardz, everything will turn out GREAT!:biggrin:


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*sage advice?*



Brushman4 said:


> Just slap on a couple of coats of Gardz, everything will turn out GREAT!:biggrin:


Brushman4, is that what you would do?

futtyos


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Id skip the bennite. Oak doesnt have blotchiness problems, its an extra step, and will make it stain lighter. Polycrylic is crap, but it will get the job done. three coats, light sande in between.

I'd stain, first coat, and sand the base down. After its up, color putty the nail holes, touch up the cuts if necessary, wipe really good, two more coats. You could do two coats down, I guess...

I usually dont do casing down, cuz you have to do the jamb anyway, but it doesnt really matter....


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Although there are better options, If someone provided me with a stain and clear finish, I’d just go with the material provided as long as they were compatible, which they are. That way the onus is on the client if for some reason they don’t like it. It also eliminates having to buy material and sample it out which more often than not, requires a couple of attempts in getting the client to approve the color. For one door it could turn into a bit of a nuisance.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Woodco said:


> Id skip the bennite. Oak doesnt have blotchiness problems, its an extra step, and will make it stain lighter. Polycrylic is crap, but it will get the job done. three coats, light sande in between.
> 
> I'd stain, first coat, and sand the base down. After its up, color putty the nail holes, touch up the cuts if necessary, wipe really good, two more coats. You could do two coats down, I guess...
> 
> I usually dont do casing down, cuz you have to do the jamb anyway, but it doesnt really matter....



Reason I spec bennite, or any conditioner on oak is because that golden oak color comes off too strong most of the time. Of course that's a personal preference but just my experience making samples for HO's.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

I agree with Woodco on skipping a conditioner..oak is pretty tight grained and can be difficult to get the desired depth of stain without sealing, let alone sealing it first.

I always like staining jambs and trim before trim is installed. Why not avoid having to cut in stain to wall. Plus it's good to have edge of jamb stained just in case trim shrinks a little or shifts.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I agree with Woodco on skipping a conditioner..oak is pretty tight grained and can be difficult to get the desired depth of stain without sealing, let alone sealing it first.



maybe with minwax. old masters and lenmar stains oak certainly comes off _golden_. That lenmar stuff is like 30% dye to pigment also.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Most of my staining was done with BM or Tungseal. Very occasionally Minwax. I've never used Old Masters or Lenmar.


*For some reason the "quote" function isn't working, so I couldn't quote you, Common.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Most of my staining was done with BM or Tungseal. Very occasionally Minwax. I've never used Old Masters or Lenmar.
> 
> 
> *For some reason the "quote" function isn't working, so I couldn't quote you, Common.



Old masters has better quality pigments and something like 2x the pigment load of minwax. Lenmar is on a totally different planet, no comparison at all. Here is a picture of lenmar next to a minwax stain on alder cut from the same stock.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

All good suggestions here and will provide good results. 

If the door will get some wear and tear I would not go poly because it is practically impossible to repair. I would get a quart of Waterlox Original Sealer and use the golden oak minwax provided. 

Sand door to 220, wipe down with mineral spirits, mix 1/4 stain with 3/4 waterlox for first coat and wipe on,. 
Don't worry it will be even with one or two swipes with the grain. In 24 hr wipe on 2nd coat straight waterlox , 24hr sand 320, wipe on 3rd coat of waterlox. 0000 bronze wool if you want a satin finish. 

Expel air from waterlox or it will ruin within 24 hr. I just crush the can a little to get air out.

For a qicker job I use General finishes waterbased stains and High-performance waterbased poly.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@cocomonkeynuts top "yes" is Minwax bottom "yes" is Lenmar? What is big board?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Tprice2193 said:


> @*cocomonkeynuts* top "yes" is Minwax bottom "yes" is Lenmar? What is big board?



Both top/bottom "Yes" are minwax samples made by the HO. Large middle Board is lenmar, can't remember the color and may be an intermixed color. 1 coat no conditioner.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Old masters has better quality pigments and something like 2x the pigment load of minwax. Lenmar is on a totally different planet, no comparison at all. Here is a picture of lenmar next to a minwax stain on alder cut from the same stock.
> View attachment 105533


Lenmar...never heard of it. Clearly not available in this region. What is it? 
Is it a long oil wiping stain or something else? Is it compatible with traditional Poly? 

I think the stain samples are interesting, but somewhat unfair until clear-coated.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Tprice2193 said:


> If the door will get some wear and tear I would not go poly because it is practically impossible to repair.


Not sure what you mean here. Poly is extremely easy to re-coat. 
Just scuff and re-apply.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Holland I have had some pretty bad damage since I do rentals. Once a big sticker, five inches, was placed on an interior six panel pine door I had finished ten years prior. Took off 2-3 layers of poly. Since the finish had ambered I was not able to touch it up and was unwilling to sand/strip and start over. So I did as best I could and let it go because its a rental. Another house I did cabinets in Waterlox, polymerized tung oil with phenolic resin that does not get more amber with time, and have been able to make some repairs though not as nasty as the one above. I have a couple test oak cabinet doors done about 12 yr ago one with ArmRSeal poly and the other with Waterlox. I will dig them out to see if they illustrate the ambering. I like the look of the satin GF Arm-r-seal poly and use almost the same method you described. Its easier to use than Waterlox so for peices unlikely to get damage I will use poly. Stair rails is another place I use waterlox. 

Maybe @Alchemy Redux can shed some light on this? I may be approaching it wrong. I probably need to update my practices as I have been doing this way for a long time.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Lenmar...never heard of it. Clearly not available in this region. What is it?
> Is it a long oil wiping stain or something else? Is it compatible with traditional Poly?
> 
> I think the stain samples are interesting, but somewhat unfair until clear-coated.



Lenmar is BenjaminMoore...


This was the quick stain alkyd wiping. Fast dry/recoat 30min solvent or lacquer topcoat. ~4 hours recoat waterborne. Tint with industrial colorant and dyes. There is also a lacquer wiping stain and tint base waterborne.



http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/product-detail/pro/lenmar/quickstain-alkyd-wiping-stains


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Tprice2193 said:


> @Holland I have had some pretty bad damage since I do rentals. Once a big sticker, five inches, was placed on an interior six panel pine door I had finished ten years prior. Took off 2-3 layers of poly. Since the finish had ambered I was not able to touch it up and was unwilling to sand/strip and start over. So I did as best I could and let it go because its a rental. Another house I did cabinets in Waterlox, polymerized tung oil with phenolic resin that does not get more amber with time, and have been able to make some repairs though not as nasty as the one above. I have a couple test oak cabinet doors done about 12 yr ago one with ArmRSeal poly and the other with Waterlox. I will dig them out to see if they illustrate the ambering. I like the look of the satin GF Arm-r-seal poly and use almost the same method you described. Its easier to use than Waterlox so for peices unlikely to get damage I will use poly. Stair rails is another place I use waterlox.
> 
> Maybe @Alchemy Redux can shed some light on this? I may be approaching it wrong. I probably need to update my practices as I have been doing this way for a long time.


I agree. I’ve been using pto for a good 30+ years..both by Waterlox and Sutherland Welles. It doesn’t yellow and it’s very easy to rejuvenate and repair unlike poly. I’ve used Carlisle tung oil which is Waterlox rebranded on all the Carlisle Wideplank Floors I’ve done. I always prefer the oils over poly. Can’t get that silky smooth feel with a poly film finish like you can with oils. Also used a lot of the European hardwax-oils. They’re really nice too and don’t experience bleedback like you often get with pto in wiping applications. I’d like to try the Odie’s that Coco always speaks so highly of.

Edit: Can’t spot repair poly, pto you can. When doing a re-coat with poly you’re also building up more of a film and closing the pores. The pores start to get a little funky looking on re-coats. It doesn’t happen with oils.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

@Tprice2193
Below is an example of pto on lightly bleached white oak done 16 years ago. No yellowing. The photo was taken 15 years after being done.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Lenmar is BenjaminMoore...
> 
> 
> This was the quick stain alkyd wiping. Fast dry/recoat 30min solvent or lacquer topcoat. ~4 hours recoat waterborne. Tint with industrial colorant and dyes. There is also a lacquer wiping stain and tint base waterborne.
> ...


that explains it, we do not have a BM supplier nearby. 

I generally do not like alkyd wiping stains. I find they are more prone to blotchiness, and can run into problems if a second coat of stain is needed, as alkyds can tend to lift and reactivate.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> @Tprice2193
> Below is an example of pto on lightly bleached white oak done 16 years ago. No yellowing. The photo was taken 15 years after being done.


I agree that there is a time and a place for a non yellowing varnish, such as whitewashed wood and modern styles, Maple, etc... but is maybe a non-factor if the wood is being stained w/Golden Oak. Future touch ups would need to be stained to match.

Ambering of clears is often desirable on oak. It enhances the grain, and adds depth and luminosity as it ages.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> that explains it, we do not have a BM supplier nearby.
> 
> I generally do not like alkyd wiping stains. I find they are more prone to blotchiness, and can run into problems if a second coat of stain is needed, as alkyds can tend to lift and reactivate.



The lenmar alkyd stain isn't as prone to 'blotchiness' as many other pigment based stains. Its not a linseed oil base and it uses different pigments and dyes. As you can probably see from that photo there is a lot of grain definition that comes through even though alder absorbs it unevenly. Of course it can have adhesion issues if you try to second coat and poor prep. That stain can also be thinned to use as a 'spray no wipe' and be used with lenmar dyes(separately or mixed in) to achieve deeper tones. Alternatively use the lacquer stain or just the dyes.


Interestingly the waterborne stains from general finishes and SamaN come out very even on alder but masks a lot of grain definition.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Holland said:


> I agree that there is a time and a place for a non yellowing varnish, such as whitewashed wood and modern styles, Maple, etc... but is maybe a non-factor if the wood is being stained w/Golden Oak. Future touch ups would need to be stained to match.
> 
> Ambering of clears is often desirable on oak. It enhances the grain, and adds depth and luminosity as it ages.


I agree that ambering an non-ambering clears have their place. Below’s one where instead of using a stain or dye, I fumed the white oak with ammonium hydroxide, and finished it with a tung oil/urethane-alkyd mix, wanting a bit of ambering .


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

@AlchemyRedux,
Beautiful!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

@futtyos. Ya for one door, the minwax and poly is fine. Will do a great job. You don't want to go down that rabbit hole of choosing a stain colour /finish etc for one door.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Alchemy Redux Thanks! I see that door was quartersawn white oak. Nice look. Knowing WHY you do something a particular way helps. I also do most of my floors with pto basically for same reasons. I have about 1400 sq ft of QS White Oak to lay and finish. Trying to decide on stain color. I still use lambs wool applicator for stain and pto. First coat I use 25 % stain in 75% pto. I know some use rollers how about you?


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Brushman4, is that what you would do?
> 
> futtyos


It's not what I would do, but futty you're the one with the Gardz man crush!:surprise:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Tprice2193 said:


> @Alchemy Redux Thanks! I see that door was quartersawn white oak. Nice look. Knowing WHY you do something a particular way helps. I also do most of my floors with pto basically for same reasons. I have about 1400 sq ft of QS White Oak to lay and finish. Trying to decide on stain color. I still use lambs wool applicator for stain and pto. First coat I use 25 % stain in 75% pto. I know some use rollers how about you?


The only times I’ve used a roller on a floor were with Bona Kemi Traffic & Mega, Basic Coatings Street Shoe, and oil based Lenmar & PoloPlaz Primero polyurethanes. 

My preferences for stains when using tung oil are premixed tung oil dye stains or oil soluble aniline dyes incorporated into the tung oil. Pigmented stains often interfere with the performance of the oil finish unless mixing them with the oil like you mentioned. Just have to be careful with colorfastness when using dyes. Methods for stain application vary, sometimes padding it on, other times brushing it on.

Applying the tung oil varies as well. Sometimes I’ll pad on a coat or two of thin PTO sealer, and apply subsequent coatings using a rotary floor buffer for the application, excess removal, and buffing. I’ll often apply 6 coats in total when buffer applied. It all depends on the look I’m trying to achieve and the type of oil. My preference is not to apply oils like a film finish by padding it on, preferring buffer applied. Just have to be careful with oil bleed-back when utilizing a rotary floor buffer with tung oil.

The hardwax-oils are a lot less work and are something worth considering as an option to tung oil. 

Below is a instructional video on buffer applied oil, the technique being very similar to the the method I’ve always used. For the instructional video, they’re using RMC. The portion of the video that applies is from 0:45 to 3:00


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

@Tprice2193
I figured I’d add that the first time I used Watorlox Original was in 2003. The product used was Carlisle’s rebranded Waterlox for one of Carlisle’s portfolio case study projects, the project also being published in Elle Decor’s July/August 2006 edition in an article entitled “Learning Curve”.

I opted not to apply it in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications, utilizing the buffer applied method and wiped each coat dry. Carlisle found issue with the modified procedure, getting in between me and my interior design client who owned the home, insisting premature finish failure was inevitable. 

Prior to that I was only one of a few finishers on the East Coast who was buffer applying and using burnished oil finishes dating back to the mid 80’s, buffer applied burnished oils now being the floor finishing standard. They made the video for the case study ~ 10 years after performing the work, putting it up on their website, the floors looking like they were finished yesterday. They were amazed at how well a non-film application performed when not done in accordance with the spec, especially after negatively criticizing my methods, predicting failure within the first year being placed into service. 

Since then I’ve finished several other Carlisle installations in the same fashion utilizing Waterlox. I’ve also applied it as more of a film finish in accordance with the manufacturer’s spec, the finishes developing scuff marks and not holding up nearly as well as the more traditional wipe on wipe off method when buffer applied.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@Alchemy Redux - Thanks for the tips! Its rewarding to have you procedures adopted! I guess I could see Carlisle's concern for shearing because of the small amount of resin in Waterlox Original being buffed in. Guess it is a small enough percentage that it goes in the wood with the oil or is mechanically transformed. I will try this on my next floor. I might practice the process on a walnut gun stock and table I need refinish

2003 is about same time I started using Waterlox on cabinets. Did some floors applied with the lambs wool but was not 100% satisfied with them. 2-3 coats Waterlox original with 4th coat high luster which has more resin. To bright for me. Some of the cabinet jobs on oak I wet sanded in the waterlox original with 400 grit which worked as pore filler and top coated. I am assuming with sufficient buffing you would get pore fill? Maybe wet sand in then buff with maroon pad? Thank for tips!


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Tprice2193 said:


> @Alchemy Redux - Thanks for the tips! Its rewarding to have you procedures adopted! I guess I could see Carlisle's concern for shearing because of the small amount of resin in Waterlox Original being buffed in. Guess it is a small enough percentage that it goes in the wood with the oil or is mechanically transformed. I will try this on my next floor. I might practice the process on a walnut gun stock and table I need refinish
> 
> 2003 is about same time I started using Waterlox on cabinets. Did some floors applied with the lambs wool but was not 100% satisfied with them. 2-3 coats Waterlox original with 4th coat high luster which has more resin. To bright for me. Some of the cabinet jobs on oak I wet sanded in the waterlox original with 400 grit which worked as pore filler and top coated. I am assuming with sufficient buffing you would get pore fill? Maybe wet sand in then buff with maroon pad? Thank for tips!


With oils I prefer minimal pore fill. The high gloss is awful. I did a project for Dick Grasso who was the former chairman of the NYSE. He wanted an ebonized high gloss Waterlox finish. I ebonized them using iron acetate followed by a concentrated aniline TO dye stain, finishing them utilizing the sealer topped off with high gloss. I included a photo of one of his floors, almost being embarrassed putting my name on it or to even post it here. The dished grain isn’t from me either, the client having provided his own flooring sander.

The Waterlox when buffer applied experiences a lot of bleed-back due to the high solvent content. I often have to stick around for hours after the applications, stepping onto the not so completely dried floors and wipe off the bleed-back and oil speckling before it dries. With buffer applied burnished oils, the European hardwax-oils are IMO better and don’t bleed-back and speckle due to the higher oil content, some having upwards a 90+% oil content. The European hardwax-oils are engineered for automated line finishing where there’s no tolerance for bleed-back. Sometimes as finishers we pigeonhole ourselves, not exploring and trying better products. 

A lot of finishers prefer the RMC oil plus 2c for burnished and line finished oil applications. I think the RMC oil plus 2C is an isocyanate catalalyzed linseed oil which yellows a bit. It doesn’t hold up in wet locations and kitchens. Although it contains engineered waxes, most finishers apply a 2K WP PU over it in wet locations, the WB poly having decent compatibility with the engineered waxes.

One of the earliest innovators and developers of PTO floor finishes was a friend and mentor of mine. He’d actually purchased his first oil cooker from Waterlox, cooking/polymerizing his own tung oil finishes. His finishing business at one time was based in the Carolinas, where he introduced his buffer applied techniques and tung oils to other finishers in the Atlantic region. He ultimately set up a tung oil finish manufacturing and retail business, his company being Sutherland Welles Ltd now based out of VT.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> It's not what I would do, but futty you're the one with the Gardz man crush!:surprise:


Thanks gramma, but.........






futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Thanks gramma, but.........
> 
> 302 Moved
> 
> futtyos


So your saying Granny helps schedule your jobs? Just be sure a gator doesn't get your Granny, chomp, chomp.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> So your saying Granny helps schedule your jobs? Just be sure a gator doesn't get your Granny, chomp, chomp.
> 302 Moved


No, gramma. I'm saying "you're not helping."

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> No, gramma. I'm saying "you're not helping."
> 
> futtyos


OK, I'll make this simple, sand the door and jam down with the grain with 220 sandpaper. Wipe down with mineral spirits, let dry, stain, seal and varnish two coats. I've done thousands of these over the years with nary a problem.

Does that help you futty, futt?


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Brushman4 said:


> OK, I'll make this simple, sand the door and jam down with the grain with 220 sandpaper. Wipe down with mineral spirits, let dry, stain, seal and varnish two coats. I've done thousands of these over the years with nary a problem.
> 
> Does that help you futty, futt?


Bless you heart Brushman4! The client has the stain and the "varnish." What would you use to "seal" between staining and varnishing/clear coating?

futtyos


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Bless you heart Brushman4! The client has the stain and the "varnish." What would you use to "seal" between staining and varnishing/clear coating?
> 
> futtyos


Duh, sanding sealer, something like this, https://generalfinishes.com/faq/what-are-benefits-using-sanding-sealer-applying-topcoat

This ain't rocket science, is it?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Brushman4 said:


> Duh, sanding sealer, something like this, https://generalfinishes.com/faq/what-are-benefits-using-sanding-sealer-applying-topcoat
> 
> This ain't rocket science, is it?


Using sanding sealer is a step I never adhered to. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever done it - unlike using a wood conditioner on soft woods prior to staining, which I felt was sop. I always just put down three coats of the top coat finish. What do you think the benefit of using it is? Note - not knocking it, just curious.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

RH said:


> Using sanding sealer is a step I never adhered to. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever done it - unlike using a wood conditioner on soft woods prior to staining, which I felt was sop. I always just put down three coats of the top coat finish. What do you think the benefit of using it is? Note - not knocking it, just curious.



Most quality top coats will be 'self sealing', as in they will adhere to the substrate. Not necessary to use a separate sealer in most cases.


Sanding sealers are high build, dry fast and sand to a powder. In the case of solvent based sealers like sealcoat (shellac) or lenmar (fast dry oil) they can be used as barrier coat between finishes like dyes that would otherwise lift while applying a topcoat.


For example lenmar rapid seal, you can stain, seal , sand smooth and get one coat of oil polyurethane in a day.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Oak is easy, no sealer necessary. 
(Sealers are sometimes needed on Pine and Maple because that can absorb unevenly, and can sometimes result in a "blotchy" stain).

Oak tends to look good/great with just a standard oil rubbing stain (like Minwax).

If you need a refresher, pick up a sample of oak trim and rub the stain on, and then wipe of excess. Let it dry overnight before Varnishing (Poly). 

Staining Oak is easy. 
Varnishing is always the step that separates the chaff from the grain. 

Clear Coat: 
x(2) coats to look good, x(3) to feel good. 

(sand between coats #320, avoid the edges) 
* -note- Sanding varnish too aggressively before fully cured can result in burnished spots that will show through the final coat. It is best to concentrate on a light sanding, only to remove lint, light bumps, etc... 

I like to brush the first (and sometimes second coat) to create "build", and then subsequent coats use the same poly thinned with OMS/Poly (ie., creating a "wiping" poly) applied with a 000Steel wool and wiped with a lint free smooth cotton rag 

This leaves a clear that looks nice and feels great with minimal effort.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Oak is easy, no sealer necessary.
> (Sealers are sometimes needed on Pine and Maple because that can absorb unevenly, and can sometimes result in a "blotchy" stain).


 Ive only found that to be the case with low quality stains like minwax and other 'penetrating' pigment based stains. Lenmar, General finishes waterborne, dyes, and gel stains, all come out looking very nice on traditionally blotch prone woods. The GF 'retail' stain comes out looking especially even though it masks the grain a little more than I would like. Same with the SamaN stains.


Sanding sealer is a different use than a conditioner/sealer as well.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Sanding sealer or no sanding sealer?*



Brushman4 said:


> Duh, sanding sealer, something like this, https://generalfinishes.com/faq/what-are-benefits-using-sanding-sealer-applying-topcoat
> 
> This ain't rocket science, is it?


Brushman4, your advice about the sanding sealer looks good, but it only makes sense if the project is large enough to warrant the purchase of a third product or if I am a professional volume user. 

futtyos


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Ive only found that to be the case with low quality stains like minwax and other 'penetrating' pigment based stains. Lenmar, General finishes waterborne, dyes, and gel stains, all come out looking very nice on traditionally blotch prone woods. The GF 'retail' stain comes out looking especially even though it masks the grain a little more than I would like. Same with the SamaN stains.


Ever play around with nitric acid on pine or maple?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> Ever play around with nitric acid on pine or maple?



Nope but I have used some sodium percarbonate on doug fir that turned out really good.


looks pretty cool, does acetic acid do the same?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Nope but I have used some sodium percarbonate on doug fir that turned out really good.
> 
> 
> looks pretty cool, does acetic acid do the same?
> Testing Ye Original Aquafortis Reagent on a Curly Flame Maple - BigDGuitars - YouTube


It is pretty cool. Nitric acid in itself without iron is a different process. 

Acetic acid in itself does nothing. If using iron acetate you’d need a mordant such as tannic acid. For pine or maple I’d pre-treat it with tannic acid. 

I’ve used NA on pine when restoring a 1666 built home. It provided an authentically aged look without blotching or grain reversal. I’ve also used aqua fortis on figured maple. It really pops the figure beautifully without blotching.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> It is pretty cool. Nitric acid in itself without iron is a different process.
> 
> Acetic acid in itself does nothing. If using iron acetate you’d need a mordant such as tannic acid. For pine or maple I’d pre-treat it with tannic acid.
> 
> I’ve used NA on pine when restoring a 1666 built home. It provided an authentically aged look without blotching or grain reversal. I’ve also used aqua fortis on figured maple. It really pops the figure beautifully without blotching.





Where did you acquire nitric acid?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Where did you acquire nitric acid?


Being a while ago, I think I got it from a photographic chemical supply company.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

RH said:


> Using sanding sealer is a step I never adhered to. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever done it - unlike using a wood conditioner on soft woods prior to staining, which I felt was sop. I always just put down three coats of the top coat finish. What do you think the benefit of using it is? Note - not knocking it, just curious.


Every shop I ever worked for always put on a coat of sanding sealer after the stain was dry. It seals better and raises the grain, so when you sand it you don't have to worry about the grain anymore. When using only varnish it doesn't seal or sand as good.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Most quality top coats will be 'self sealing', as in they will adhere to the substrate. Not necessary to use a separate sealer in most cases.
> 
> 
> Sanding sealers are high build, dry fast and sand to a powder. In the case of solvent based sealers like sealcoat (shellac) or lenmar (fast dry oil) they can be used as barrier coat between finishes like dyes that would otherwise lift while applying a topcoat.
> ...





cocomonkeynuts said:


> Most quality top coats will be 'self sealing', as in they will adhere to the substrate. Not necessary to use a separate sealer in most cases.
> 
> Is that like how almost every paint says it's a primer and finish in one? Do they add the primer to the can first or is it the finish? What does most quality paints are self-sealing mean? Don't believe it cause it says so on the label, the devil is in the details!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Brushman4 said:


> cocomonkeynuts said:
> 
> 
> > Most quality top coats will be 'self sealing', as in they will adhere to the substrate. Not necessary to use a separate sealer in most cases.
> ...


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Brushman4 said:
> 
> 
> > Follow directions in the data sheet or have a bad time. Modern Masters dead flat varnish is not self sealing on wood for example.
> ...


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Ive only found that to be the case with low quality stains like minwax and other 'penetrating' pigment based stains. Lenmar, General finishes waterborne, dyes, and gel stains, all come out looking very nice on traditionally blotch prone woods. The GF 'retail' stain comes out looking especially even though it masks the grain a little more than I would like. Same with the SamaN stains.
> 
> 
> Sanding sealer is a different use than a conditioner/sealer as well.


One way to reduce blotching and to promote more uniform absorption is to simply water pop the wood first. It doesn’t work with all species, but does with many. It also eliminates the stain from accentuating sanding marks.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Alchemy Redux said:


> One way to reduce blotching and to promote more uniform absorption is to simply water pop the wood first. It doesn’t work with all species, but does with many. It also eliminates the stain from accentuating sanding marks.



Another thing I noticed is the GF waterborne and saman stains don't really raise the grain too much. With the dye stains and GF RTM stain I was having to water pop the grain then knocking it down with 320 prior to stain.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

futtyos said:


> Brushman4, your advice about the sanding sealer looks good, but it only makes sense if the project is large enough to warrant the purchase of a third product or if I am a professional volume user.
> 
> futtyos


fuuty, you can use any leftover sanding sealer for repairing any scarred or torn drywall, it works even better than your Gardz!!!:biggrin:


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

@cocomonkeynuts

Curiosity getting the better of me, after doing a web search, NA appears to be readily available through a number of chemical manufacturers. It was nearly impossible to acquire in 2001 immediately following 9/11 when I was using it. Being a precursor chemical used to make explosives, there may have been restrictions and/or a moratorium limiting the sale and/or distribution as well as the monitoring of down stream uses, particularly with painters in their Hillbilly labs. I had to go though a bit of red tape when purchasing it.

On the topic of non self sealing finishes, although it’s always best to follow tech sheets, there are a number of non self sealing products where I’d regularly skip the specified sealer and use the products directly on raw wood surfaces. I’d only consider it after testing adhesion and chemical resistance which doesn’t always insure performance. The sealers that I nixed served the functions of reducing tannin pull & finish material consumption, allowing for quicker film build, some of the sealers having a lower pH than the finish, serving as a barrier against high pH clears which tend to darken tannin rich wood species.

I quickly learned the importance of using vinyl sealer under CAB my first year out, some of the CAB finishes experiencing failure in wet locations when not using vinyl sealer. 

Since first using water anything products, I’ve always water popped and de-nibbed before applying water dyes and/or water clears, grain raise sometimes presenting problems.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

Alchemy Redux said:


> @cocomonkeynuts
> 
> Curiosity getting the better of me, after doing a web search, NA appears to be readily available through a number of chemical manufacturers. It was nearly impossible to acquire in 2001 immediately following 9/11 when I was using it. Being a precursor chemical used to make explosives, there may have been restrictions and/or a moratorium limiting the sale and/or distribution as well as the monitoring of down stream uses, particularly with painters in their Hillbilly labs. I had to go though a bit of red tape when purchasing it.
> 
> ...


All due respect, but I think you hijacked this thread.


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