# Promar 200 Watered Down?



## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

I pose this question today after doing a little bit of research that nobody but me seems to notice. Recently, Sherwin Williams changed to label of its Promar 200 label from a white background to a blue background. Very minimal change, right? Along with this new blue label came new information on the side under the ingredients list. The ingredients have stayed the same, but the VOC's have changed (from 99g/L to 94 g/L) and the weight has become lighter. I find this interesting for two reasons. The first being that for how big of a marketing giant SW is, they would never let the opportunity to brag about lowering VOC's slip by without mention. Has anyone, ANYONE, heard of 200 Promar now being lower VOC? I have not, when I inquired about it at my local SW store, all I got was a, "huh, that's weird." The second reason, and the reson I read the ingredients label in the first place, is the fact that I noticed the product to be performing poorly compared to the old white label. I never had so many troubles trying to get two coats to cover properly as I have had with the new blue label cans. I have been using Sherwin Williams ProMar 200 for over ten years on interior paint jobs. My most common is water-based eggshell sheen. I have been having big issues getting the same ability to cover walls when rolled and cutting edges with a brush than I ever have had in the past. Why, I kept asking? Why? My question posed is this: Do you believe that the reason the VOC's and weight have been lowered in the new blue cans is because some of the more expensive ingredients have been taken out(titanium dioxide, etc), and water has been added. This would (in theory lower both the VOC's and weight). When I wrote Sherwin Williams and asked for the old MSDS showing the water content as a percentage, they refused and told me I could find the current ProMar 200 MSDS on their website:

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/document/MSDS/en/035777632703/

Why are they with-holding this info, and why did they not advertise the change or the lower VOC's? I would love input on the situation. I would also love the MSDS from the old white label can if anyone happens to have it!


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I've been using Promar 200 Zero and have been impressed. It seems to me it has a heavy body and I don't think I'd want it any heavier. I'm not sure why SW kept the name Promar as it doesn't even act like the old promar. IMO SW should have renamed it separating it from promar. I have hated Promar in the past and thought it performed worse than the new. I can't answer any of the data questions cause I haven't dug that deep into it. But I'm sure you could do a google search for the old Promar PDS. There are sites that have them. Just gotta dig for it.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I've been using Promar 200 Zero and have been impressed. It seems to me it has a heavy body and I don't think I'd want it any heavier. I'm not sure why SW kept the name Promar as it doesn't even act like the old promar. IMO SW should have renamed it separating it from promar. I have hated Promar in the past and thought it performed worse than the new. I can't answer any of the data questions cause I haven't dug that deep into it. But I'm sure you could do a google search for the old Promar PDS. There are sites that have them. Just gotta dig for it.


Thanks for the response, but I'm not referring to Promar 200 Zero. The Promar 200 cans changed at the same time the Zero cans came out. They look similar, but the blue cans I'm referring to are for Promar 200.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I can't answer any of the data questions cause I haven't dug that deep into it. But I'm sure you could do a google search for the old Promar PDS. There are sites that have them. Just gotta dig for it.


Good Idea,

I've done some digging and come up with some interesting facts. Back in 2006 Promar 200 used to be made of 3% quartz. By 2008, the quartz had been eliminated. In 2006, with the quartz, the VOC's were 92 g/L and the titanium dioxide content was 13%. In 2008, with no quartz, the VOC's were 96g/L and the titanium dioxide content was 15%. In the newest MSDS (2011), still with no quartz, the VOC's are 94g/L and the titanium dioxide content is 13% again. So, it seems they have figured out a formula with no quartz and less titanium dioxide to save money. Also, another ingredient Calcium Carbonate, has steadily decreased over the 5 year span. What is being added then? I have a hunch what they could be supplementing. According to the MSDS, there are no other main ingredients in the paint.


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

Wouldn't be surprised....when I had to use Optimus with various apartment complexes (their spec), I think I would've felt better using watercolor paints on the walls. Seemed to be over 50% water...


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

Not to knock you, but all your posts are directed at SW. A little about you perhaps? Without knowing if you are a legit contractor, i wonder if your threads are creative sabotaging by big behr. 

I have not had a bit of problems with 200. The blue label is nothing new. At least a year. And I definitely have had no coverage or more appropriately labeled "hide" issues.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

Paradigmzz said:


> Not to knock you, but all your posts are directed at SW. A little about you perhaps? Without knowing if you are a legit contractor, i wonder if your threads are creative sabotaging by big behr.
> 
> I have not had a bit of problems with 200. The blue label is nothing new. At least a year. And I definitely have had no coverage or more appropriately labeled "hide" issues.


HaHa, I know it seems I am anti SW, but in fact it is quite the opposite. I purchase 90% of my yearly materials through them. I am just putting in my two cents on this issue. I purchase alot of interior paint in one year and almost all of it is ProMar 200. I plan on staying loyal to the SW brand because they offer amazing customer service. I inquire these things because I want to be sure I am using the best product for the money, and to be sure my reliance on them does not blind me to their unmentioned product changes made from behind the curtain. I am a numbers guy, and seeing the numbers change on the can gets my mind working.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

I finally got an answer from Sherwin Williams. I am incorrect in my assumption that water has been added. An acrylic resin has been added to substitute the missing titanium dioxide. This is what is causing the coverage issues. I am not going crazy. The product is performing slightly worse than it ever has in the past. Now, I will be using an interior paint with higher titanium dioxide content (and price). It looks like Superpaint is the next one up on the list. SW you still have my business.


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## Damon T (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Do you know if that includes the 200 Zero Voc line? And are you confirmed that super paint does in fact cover better? I use a ton of 200 Zero so would like to know. Will try to get this info out of my rep.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

Damon T said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you know if that includes the 200 Zero Voc line? And are you confirmed that super paint does in fact cover better? I use a ton of 200 Zero so would like to know. Will try to get this info out of my rep.


The 200 Zero VOC line has not changed since its introduction. It is a serious competitor to Promar 200(maybe even better than promar) with the advantages of no VOC's. I imagine the zero line will completely replace the standard promar line in the future. Superpaint has 21% Titanium Dioxide content. ProMar 200 has 13% titanium dioxide content. 200 Zero has 15% titanium dioxide, but a completely different formula from Superpaint and Promar to make it a zero VOC product. Titanium dioxide is not the only factor that contributes to better coverage, but it is a large part of it. I will use 200 Zero and Superpaint in the future. No more Promar 200 (a sad day for me). As contractors, we must change as the industry changes. I will use SOLO for interior semi-gloss use.


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## caddisfly007 (Mar 25, 2009)

Who really cares what is in the Promar 200 line. My SW rep told me that it is going to be perminatly replaced by Promar 200 Zero VOC in the next year. This goes for the Progreen line as well. If you haven't tried the Promar 200 Zero you should. It is great paint and I have had no complaints. Promar Zero touches up like a dream and comes in all the tinting bases with a variety of sheens. Everyone better get on board with the Zero VOC products because more and more commercial jobs are heading this way.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

aaa, I too have noticed the difference. I use Promar 200 for apartment repaints & used to get very nice one-coat coverage over the same color........it isn't happening anymore. What I don't like about SW is that they don't tell you there is a formula change.......then it catches you off guard when you have problems.


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## Builtmany (Dec 5, 2009)

aaapaintingcolorado said:


> Thanks for the response, but I'm not referring to Promar 200 Zero. The Promar 200 cans changed at the same time the Zero cans came out. They look similar, but the blue cans I'm referring to are for Promar 200.


From what I've seen all the cans are blue now.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

I saw the new blue label today, I guess I never noticed cause I never use the promar 200. I've always thought it was junk.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

caddisfly007 said:


> Who really cares what is in the Promar 200 line. My SW rep told me that it is going to be perminatly replaced by Promar 200 Zero VOC in the next year. This goes for the Progreen line as well. If you haven't tried the Promar 200 Zero you should. It is great paint and I have had no complaints. Promar Zero touches up like a dream and comes in all the tinting bases with a variety of sheens. Everyone better get on board with the Zero VOC products because more and more commercial jobs are heading this way.


too bad it's not really "zeror voc" since the tints have glycol in it which does contain vocs.

But anyway, good to know.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

caddisfly007 said:


> Who really cares what is in the Promar 200 line. My SW rep told me that it is going to be perminatly replaced by Promar 200 Zero VOC in the next year. This goes for the Progreen line as well. If you haven't tried the Promar 200 Zero you should. It is great paint and I have had no complaints. Promar Zero touches up like a dream and comes in all the tinting bases with a variety of sheens. Everyone better get on board with the Zero VOC products because more and more commercial jobs are heading this way.


I am on a full repaint right now, sprayed all the lids in a mid tone color flat, the job got delayed due to some real estate issues. We are now back on the job almost 2 weeks later. I am half way tempted to roll in the middle of one of the lid for a sample touch up. The main reason I didn't like the original 200 was cause the touch up sucked in flat. 

After typing this I am going to do a touch up sample.


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## mblosik (Jan 3, 2009)

Used 200 for years. Any color change, i quote two coats.....never a problem. 

last project we did with it was 200 eg on smooth walls....
Latte over Dover White. 
Covered ok in one ct....
perfectly in two. 
probably would have covered over sand, orange peel, or knockdown in one ct....


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

TJ Paint said:


> too bad it's not really "zeror voc" since the tints have glycol in it which does contain vocs.
> 
> But anyway, good to know.


I've been buying a few gallons with VOC free colorants. So far only 2 stores have these colorants. I was told next year they would have them in all stores and all products would be tint with those colorants.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

ewingpainting.net said:


> I am on a full repaint right now, sprayed all the lids in a mid tone color flat, the job got delayed due to some real estate issues. We are now back on the job almost 2 weeks later. I am half way tempted to roll in the middle of one of the lid for a sample touch up. The main reason I didn't like the original 200 was cause the touch up sucked in flat.
> 
> After typing this I am going to do a touch up sample.


I rarely use 200 flat anymore. I think 400 flat touches up much better. I have even had problems with 200 flat pure white touching in at times. 400 flat seems to get better coverage also. 

On another note, I will say I thought the promar 200 series pre 2003 when they reformulated the paint did touch in a lot better. It seemed like they added more sheen to their egshell.


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

Interesting to know about the 200 vs 400. An SW manager I deal alot with felt that the reformulated Optimus (haven't used the 'new' version) actually covers better than the 400 though I'm not in the mood to try it out right now.


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

Masterpiece said:


> Interesting to know about the 200 vs 400. An SW manager I deal alot with felt that the reformulated Optimus (haven't used the 'new' version) actually covers better than the 400 though I'm not in the mood to try it out right now.


We use to use a lot of 400 flat in the day when it was cheaper for us to buy compared to the 200. We went to the 200 flat because it became cheaper to buy for us than the 400. I have had problems myself with the 200, so I have went back to using the 400 lat more.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

You'll see the 0 voc colorants next year. Look for the new 400 0 Voc soon. Also Solo will be sold nationwide too.


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

I can get five gallons of perfectly good flat white ceiling paint at lowes for $40.00; sherwin wants 125.00 for flat white pro mar 400. I won't be going to sherwin for paint again any time soon.


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## mblosik (Jan 3, 2009)

Metro M & L said:


> I can get five gallons of perfectly good flat white ceiling paint at lowes for $40.00; sherwin wants 125.00 for flat white pro mar 400. I won't be going to sherwin for paint again any time soon.


your sw rep sucks, then....400 flat for a 5er should be no more than $60. order enough and it's 45.


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## paintpimp (Jun 29, 2007)

Or get CHB flat and have exact same results as the 400.


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## AbsolutePainting (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the good info aaa. Appreciate you doing the research and sharing your results with us. Too bad products we like/liked are in a constant state of change, all in the name of profits- while they continue to increase pricing.


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

AbsolutePainting said:


> Thanks for the good info aaa. Appreciate you doing the research and sharing your results with us. Too bad products we like/liked are in a constant state of change, all in the name of profits- while they continue to increase pricing.


That's the most discouraging part. I wish there was a bit more transparency. I feel mislead when I'm told my price increases are due to increased prices in Titanium dioxide, but they are actually reducing the amounts of titanium dioxide to make up for those price increases. So, in reality the price increase is not due to raw materials cost, but just another opportunity for them to charge more money. Just don't B.S. me and I can make my own decisions on what products to use/switch to. That's all, just be honest. I can't always pass on these price increases to my customers, because many of my competitors are using big box brands at lower prices than I am buying at. They will continue to beat me to the bottom line. I normally have to eat these costs in my bids.


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## ARC (Nov 30, 2011)

I always found Promar200 to be excellent value. And great ceiling paint for most purposes.
400 does seem like a good idea when you need a little extra coverage, etc.

I wonder if the product change is due to the increasing costs of materials...


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## aaapaintingcolorado (Dec 17, 2011)

ARC said:


> I always found Promar200 to be excellent value. And great ceiling paint for most purposes.
> 400 does seem like a good idea when you need a little extra coverage, etc.
> 
> I wonder if the product change is due to the increasing costs of materials...


Not to confuse things here, but Promar 400 is the cheaper alternative to 200 and is considered to be of less quality with less coverage. 200 Flat is a wonderful paint for ceilings and will almost always cover white ceiling repaints in one coat. It is my goto for ceilings.


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## Masterpiece (Feb 26, 2008)

Multihousing properties (apartments, condos,etc) are dominated by SW though the local regional paint manufacturer is a better quality product at the same price point. 

Worst part I've found is most properties and management companies wanting to use MasterHide Semi Gloss for kit/bath/trim. Absolute worst paint I've ever had to deal with. Comes out like pudding with terrible coverage and hates to be sprayed with a small tip...

400 is like Superpaint compared to that junk...Even the SW managers talk bad about it lol...

I could only wish they'd spec PM200 in the South!


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## mudbone (Dec 26, 2011)

i know that they have watered down the gospel but promar200 too.i once was a big fan of promar and used it all the time except acouple of yrs. ago and i was having coverage problems 2 coats over a tinted primer lite color and i called s.w. on the carpet about its poor hiding qualities and they said switch 2 a heavy nap cover which i thought was insane. if i would have wanted texture paint on this super smooth walls by the way which i had finished', i would have bought some of that. i also heard from a reliable source that the promar chemist crossed over 2 valspar 200 line around the time all this was happening. i still use s.w. but just duration in and out and proclassic line 4 interior woodwork. this is just the behr facts!


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## Metro M & L (Jul 21, 2009)

mblosik said:


> your sw rep sucks, then....400 flat for a 5er should be no more than $60. order enough and it's 45.


Except I don't have to have a forty minute pillow talk with a sherwin rep at the box store and I don't have to buy 400 gallons. I walk in and walk out and it is still cheaper than sherwin.


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## Kustom WerK (Oct 2, 2011)

I concur with the OP, the last three times i used 200 i also had coverage issues that i never had before. 2 coats would cover almost anything,not the case now, also i did notice the new colors( blue n white) on the buckets. As someone already stated, 200 is supposed to be a better grade paint than 400


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## Trisneville (Dec 26, 2011)

Kustom WerK said:


> I concur with the OP, the last three times i used 200 i also had coverage issues that i never had before. 2 coats would cover almost anything,not the case now, also i did notice the new colors( blue n white) on the buckets. As someone already stated, 200 is supposed to be a better grade paint than 400


Pro mar 200 is a terrible product to brush or roll I've found it's ok to spray with tho fine finish tip seems to be the way to apply 208, 310 is what I've been running to spray trim and it seems do ok Ant whites are expressly thin due to the base I've been doin a lot of complaining to sherwins lately about the 200 line just did a 30 gallon interior all pro mar 2 and
would have been better off with water and food color...the zero voc pro mar 200 seems a bit thicker than the original formula... Went with super paint today i refuse to go pro mar any more.....wish customers would just splurge for duration that would make life a bit easier


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

The 5 gallons we had recently was super thick but more like a cool-whip kind-of thick, clingy. Weird stuff, very poor coverage.


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## paintchef (Sep 27, 2011)

With escalating costs of TiO2, all major paint companies are looking for ways to cut back their TiO2 use without sacrificing performance. Many national brands tone off their "pure" whites to increase opacity or use opacifying polymers and/or very small particle sized pigments to help space TiO2 more efficiently, which in theory achieves the same "dry hide", though often times the "wet hide" is compromised somewhat. 

It addition, it is not uncommon for paint manufacturers to slightly water down their finished products. For example, just before a 5,000 or 10,000 gallon batch is canned, 1-2% of water may be added to it (I used to work for a company that regularly did this). Because most manufacturers list volume solids in a range (typically +/- 1 or 2%), the finished product is still technically 'on-spec'.

The removal of quartz is a trend going on throughout the industry to eventally remove the warnings of the potential hazards associated with breathing in quartz dust, which can be carcinogenic. Calcium carbonate is the cheapest ingredient of any paint (with the exception of water), typically costing between $0.05 to $0.15 per lb. Cutting back this material doesn't make sense in terms of cost, unless like I said, they are using a spacing pigment to reduce TiO2. Under this circumstance, it may make sense to slightly reduce calcium carbonate.


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