# here come the ads



## mr.fixit (Aug 16, 2009)

got a postcard in the mail yesterday. Al's Home Improvement $200.00 per room standard size 12x10 2 coats paint,all trim and ceiling. I dont know anything about pricing repaints but this sounds real low to me.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

1 gal ceiling paint, 2 gal wall paint, and trim...1 qt, or if he's using leftover paint from other jobs, that would save a bit I guess

1x $15'ish = $15
2x $20'ish = $40
1x $10'ish ( qt or leftover) = $10

Total paint = $65. Say another $10 in misc, roller, brush etc. = $75...leaves $125. Tax that plus insurance leaving $83.75 ( 30% is easy to figure ) Not a very good margin....he'll learn eventually. Or maybe he's taking the "foot in the door" approach


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

minus his advertising, gas to get there, wear and tear on his vehicle and equipment, insurance, administrative, company profit, phone and other fixed costs he'd be lucky to gross $85 and he will never be able to hire anyone.


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

PressurePros said:


> minus his advertising, gas to get there, wear and tear on his vehicle and equipment, insurance, administrative, company profit, phone and other fixed costs he'd be lucky to gross $85 and he will never be able to hire anyone.


I was assuming he would walk, borrow a phone, use the customers ladders or a chair, and write everything on a free sticky pad.


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## RCP (Apr 18, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> I was assuming he would walk, borrow a phone, use the customers ladders or a chair, and write everything on a free sticky pad.


Or just sub it out to a $99 a room guy!


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

Got you all beat. In Cape May, NJ, there is a local publication called the Shoppee. A guy advertises $100.00 a room, no details, just the price. That's okay, because if you're willing to entertain even calling that guy, let alone hiring him, you're not the kind of customer I'm looking for anyway.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

We had a guy for a couple of seasons in my area that would come on his bicycle. A few too many DWIs I guess! There is something out there for everyone, but even though I am quick to dismiss them as not really being competition, they do have a negative affect on overall pricing. Even if customers don't go there, they see all these adds and post cards and then when they get a legitimate price it shocks them and it seems high. They get a price of $865 + tax for a bedroom and in the back of their mind they remember seeing an add for "any room for $200" and the $865 seems very high. So then they go shopping because they start thinking we are ripping them off and even if they don't call the $200 hack maybe it opens the door for the next guy who is a little hungry and comes in at $725( maybe uses an illegal or two or buys some cheaper paint, offers them a lesser price for cash, but looks pretty legit from the presentation-maybe he's even on Facebook!!). There is now a possibility that we don't get that job. Where as if they had no preconceived notion of the "$200 room" and we come highly recommended and offer a nice presentation and they have the $ in the budget- they don't even go shopping and that job is ours on the spot. Even if they are not really the "competition" they still make our jobs harder and can bring down the prices. You've got guys spending big $ on print and internet advertising and SEO and there is a guy in my area that drives around at night and staples large flyers to the telephone poles and sticks throw away job site lawn signs near the train stations, parks etc. They get taken down and disappear, but not before A LOT of people see them and before you know it they are back again.


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

Hey Cliff, I hear and understand what you're saying. The DIY channels don't make our job any easier either. I'm just whistling in the dark, pretending that they don't have an impact on overall pricing, but I know that they do. It just goes with the territory of doing something that anyone else can do but just doesn't feel like it or have the time to do it, so they think.


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## nEighter (Nov 14, 2008)

LOL yep, why do they do things like that?! :laughing: oh bruddah..


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Like those Maaco $100 auto paint jobs...whole lotta fine print on that one. 

I've encouraged people to use those super cheap guys. I tell them to call me and let me know how it goes and then offer them a free estimate of what it will take to fix it.


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## PressurePros (May 6, 2007)

NCPaint1 said:


> I was assuming he would walk, borrow a phone, use the customers ladders or a chair, and write everything on a free sticky pad.


:lol::lol::lol: You're probably right. Fixed expenses are a dime bag and a 40 oz.


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## jsheridan (Mar 12, 2011)

Wood511 said:


> I've encouraged people to use those super cheap guys. I tell them to call me and let me know how it goes and then offer them a free estimate of what it will take to fix it.


I worked for a guy years ago, he used to carry some hack business cards. When he sensed cheapness, he'd hand them one of the cards and tell them if you want cheap, call this guy. I'm not your man.

Oh, I read the craig's list greatest hits, I stand corrected. My guy in Cape May might be a little on the pricey side at 100 per room.


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

do a good job, charge what you charge and get over it already !! BTW I like Cliff's post, that about sums it up but nothin anybody can do about it, its a part of life an always will be in 1 form or another and if a few cheap crews are killing you then maybe you have other problems besides hacks....


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

jsheridan said:


> Got you all beat. In Cape May, NJ, there is a local publication called the Shoppee. A guy advertises $100.00 a room, no details, just the price. That's okay, because if you're willing to entertain even calling that guy, let alone hiring him, you're not the kind of customer I'm looking for anyway.


Has anyone ever called one of these guys? I'd be interested in hearing their sales pitch. I'd like to hear about prep, and materials used. 

We're all so quick to jump all over these guys, but we haven't heard their side. Everyone's weekend assignment is to call one of these companies.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I have customers to call and meet both days this weekend, and I don't need to hear their side. Any painting contractor on these boards has had guys like this on our payroll more than once. :yes:

A man has to eat, so I can't knock someone working to provide. I just can't believe people would let someone like that in their home in the first place. :no:


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Mostly I hear it is a come on to get in the door. Then you find out things like paint is not included, it is only 1 coat and it needs 2, any spackle or repair or prep is additional, everything has to be out of the room, closet not included, trim not included-so much money/door& window. I even know some contractors who place these adds. It starts out as $200-they get it up to $500-$600, buy Super-Hide and drop off a spanish speaking guy, pay him $120 for the day and pocket the rest. Many times doing several a day with different guys. The interesting thing is that these "contractors" masquerade as legitimate guys. They are licensed with lettered trucks and big shot websites. To the general public it is hard to tell them apart from a truly legit guy going in. Many times the people are less than thrilled with the experience and probably wouldn't use them again, but it doesn't matter. The work is not coming from referral-it's coming from the $200 come on add. It is just a different business model. Not one I can personally wrap my head around, but it works for some. Let the buyer beware!


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

How many times can you beat a dead horse? Unless you have business relationships with architects/designers or have deep networking in the commercial business - the painting world is dead. The only way I have found money in painting is to nab some carpentry job and/or blueboard plastering job and sell the total package along with painting - no itemization!!!!! 

A lot of us like to talk the talk about how lowballer don't affect their business, the only reason don't affect mine is because I research smaller and smaller niche markets where there is no competition. As competition comes in, it affects me.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

That's the goal Dan. Offer more and more services to less and less people. Takes less fuel to fire the marketing machine that way.


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## plainpainter (Nov 6, 2007)

vermontpainter said:


> That's the goal Dan. Offer more and more services to less and less people. Takes less fuel to fire the marketing machine that way.


You have a point, Scott. :notworthy:


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## 4ThGeneration (Apr 17, 2007)

Offering more for less is the mantra of most homeowners. They cry to the news stations that unscrupulous contractors are ripping them off and not on the up and up, but when will the news stations do a story from the legit contractors side blowing the whistle on how home owners and the DIY TV programs are creating a pricing bubble manufactured from rainbows and campfire songs?


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## Ole34 (Jan 24, 2011)

some painters shoot themselves in the foot and basically price themselves into extinction because they lack the necessary skills to complete jobs in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable price...........read the threads on hear and you'll wonder how some of these guys even get work with all the un necessary crap they do under the guise of being a ''PRO'' then pass the cost onto the HO'er and then they wonder how somebody else low balled them, its hillarious ..........................but what do I know, you guys keep washing walls with TSP and taping the carpet when you do base or get paint on the glass then scrape it off and then act stupid when somebody comes in cheaper then you and you don't get the job..... .....


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

There's alot of right ways and alot of wrong ways to run a business. In the end, customers determine a paint contractors success.

They do this by hiring the contractor every single time, and by referring the contractor at every opportunity. In return, the contractor delivers a high level of service and quality, priced to the customers expectation for quality and service, every time. It's really pretty simple.

So, I guess it comes down to finding your demographic. I think alot of contractors will do anything for anyone, as long as it is work. Others tap into a particular "type" of customer. That type can be a cheap shopper, or a reasonable customer willing to pay for what they want in a painting experience.

The customers pretty much are who they are. The contractor has the choice of who they work for, and how they deliver that service.

It's nothing personal.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

^^^Couldn't have said it better myself. Awhile back on this forum quite a few laughed about building and sustaining a referral based business. It can be done and done successfully.


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## Wolfgang (Nov 16, 2008)

Thought about this some more. I know of a few guys who fall in the $199 a room catagory. They are perfectly content right where they are. Both are one or two person operations, run a legit business from their homes, and surprisingly enough stay busy throughout the year. They have no desire to grow their businesses into anything other than what they are. For some, that is enough. Their bills are paid, they have food on the table and a roof over their head. Point being, they are filling a need for a specific niche of customer.

Then there are the other customers who want to build a relationship with contractors. For them the ability to have confidence and trust in the contractors they use is paramount, cost is a secondary concern if any at all. They have the ability to decide it's time to repaint a room or two, freshen up trim, etc., and know whom to call and what results they can expect. I do the same with contractors from other trades, what cabinet shop I recommend, what products I use, what employee I used on certain jobs.

To be honest, I never paid any attention to these ads until all the discussion about them on the forum caught my attention. Why? (Believe it or not Dan,) They didn't affect my business, my pricing, my customers. There are still customers who are willing to pay for quality and want nothing less. I knew what customers understood that it was possible to cut into base with a brush, and which one's wanted to see tape used. Didn't bother me a bit. If they were paying the tab and it made them comfortable, so be it. Like Scott said: "The customer is the one who determines you're success." The check that goes into your hand came out of theirs.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> ^^^Couldn't have said it better myself. Awhile back on this forum quite a few laughed about building and sustaining a referral based business. It can be done and done successfully.


Why buy leads through any marketing when you can get higher quality ones through your own network?


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfgang said:


> Thought about this some more. I know of a few guys who fall in the $199 a room catagory. They are perfectly content right where they are. Both are one or two person operations, run a legit business from their homes, and surprisingly enough stay busy throughout the year. They have no desire to grow their businesses into anything other than what they are. For some, that is enough. Their bills are paid, they have food on the table and a roof over their head. Point being, they are filling a need for a specific niche of customer.
> 
> Then there are the other customers who want to build a relationship with contractors. For them the ability to have confidence and trust in the contractors they use is paramount, cost is a secondary concern if any at all. They have the ability to decide it's time to repaint a room or two, freshen up trim, etc., and know whom to call and what results they can expect. I do the same with contractors from other trades, what cabinet shop I recommend, what products I use, what employee I used on certain jobs.
> 
> To be honest, I never paid any attention to these ads until all the discussion about them on the forum caught my attention. Why? (Believe it or not Dan,) They didn't affect my business, my pricing, my customers. There are still customers who are willing to pay for quality and want nothing less. I knew what customers understood that it was possible to cut into base with a brush, and which one's wanted to see tape used. Didn't bother me a bit. If they were paying the tab and it made them comfortable, so be it. Like Scott said: "The customer is the one who determines you're success." The check that goes into your hand came out of theirs.


I totally respect one man operations who charge properly and do great work. I have a couple here that are completely self sufficient, charge at least what I do, and they pass things to me that are bigger than they want, I pass to them things that fit them better than us. Works out well because all the referrals are used to paying premium prices for quality and excellent service.


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## tntpainting (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm a one man show also , but I just can't understand how u can make anymoney 200 dollars a room wow! I'd have to work the drive thru at Micky ds at night if I charged that lol!!!


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

tntpainting said:


> I'm a one man show also , but I just can't understand how u can make anymoney 200 dollars a room wow! I'd have to work the drive thru at Micky ds at night if I charged that lol!!!


Think how busy you'd be though! :jester:


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

tntpainting said:


> I'm a one man show also , but I just can't understand how u can make anymoney 200 dollars a room wow! I'd have to work the drive thru at Micky ds at night if I charged that lol!!!


I suppose is like their $1 menu. It fits what someone is looking for. Someone looking for fine dining probably isn't looking at the $1 menu. Then again, the owner of the fine dining restaurant probably isn't losing sleep over Mickey D's $1 menu either.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR (Dec 28, 2008)

RCP said:


> Or just sub it out to a $99 a room guy!


or sub it out to this guy too


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## dbpaint (Mar 10, 2011)

always someone more desperate...


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## Wood511 (Dec 13, 2010)

Wolfgang said:


> Then there are the other customers who want to build a relationship with contractors. For them the ability to have confidence and trust in the contractors they use is paramount, cost is a secondary concern if any at all. They have the ability to decide it's time to repaint a room or two, freshen up trim, etc., and know whom to call and what results they can expect. I do the same with contractors from other trades, what cabinet shop I recommend, what products I use, what employee I used on certain jobs.


This is also the way I operate. I have a "car guy" and a "ticket guy" and a "plumbing guy" and so on... I can't fathom the thought of trusting work in my house or on my auto to someone I don't know or that hasn't come referred from someone I trust. My "guys" are rock solid high quality tradesmen and businessmen that are very good at what they do and 100% reliable and trustworthy.

I want to be the "paint guy" for my customers.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

Wood511 said:


> This is also the way I operate. I have a "car guy" and a "ticket guy" and a "plumbing guy" and so on... I can't fathom the thought of trusting work in my house or on my auto to someone I don't know or that hasn't come referred from someone I trust. My "guys" are rock solid high quality tradesmen and businessmen that are very good at what they do and 100% reliable and trustworthy.
> 
> I want to be the "paint guy" for my customers.


Absolutely agree with you Wood and Wolfgang. That is the way I have always managed my life. I have established relationships with tradespeople and service providers in my business and in my personal life. My business had used the same accountant since 1966 until he retired this year! I have the same auto mechanic since 1976. I have always operated my business that way and it has always rewarded me. I will say though, that I think it is becoming somewhat of an "ol fashioned" approach. Don't get me wrong, I have no intention at this point of changing my approach, but I see more and more younger people shopping for price only and with less loyalty to "brand", and less interest in building relationships when it comes to products and services. I can remember my 'ol man driving out of his way for a particular brand of gasoline passing 3 stations along the way, because for some reason that was the brand he trusted, it was just the one he always bought-a "relationship". Now people will do the same drive to save a penny on a gal. Who's got the best deal for me "today" is the approach I see more and more today. I believe the internet has helped fuel the fire.


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