# Help! joint flashing under Epoxy paint



## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

Ok so the specs from the architect called out green board and epoxy paint. I know the Owner and told him green board would not hold up. He supplied the materials and decided to go with Dens armour Plus by GP, a fiberglass board. 

Dens armor Plus requires a Level 5 finish, and drywall compound is not recommended in pool areas, so I had this brain storm to use a high build primer. I used USG Tuff Hide which we have applied a million times before. we applied it to specs. The humidity here is running about 95% daily, so the Painter waited a few days before applying a coat of epoxy. he used Benjamin Moores Acrylic Epoxy V450 over my high build primer. He swears the drywall and primer looked great until after he painted it. 
Now...we can see every joint and screw. It looks like hell.
So two questions:
First any idea why this occurred
Second how the hell do I fix these joints. The Painter recommends sanding with 80 grit and applying an adhesive primer....my next questions was then what???How is the adhesive primer going to make this go away? Can I apply another coat of the High Build after the adhesive primer and see what happens or should I try a traditional drywall skim coat? It appears that after drying perhaps we should have added a second coat of the high build primer, but I am not completely confident this is the solution.
Any thoughts?


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Drywall is drywall. No matter how far you skim it out. High gloss epoxy ur gonna see the sheets and the screws.


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

Please clarify:

1.) You did not apply joint cement to the screw holes and seams on the Dens Amour Plus boards.

2.) In place of the joint cement, you applied USG Tuff Hide.

3.) The walls looked fine with the USG Tuff Hide until the Waterborne epoxy was applied.

4.) Now all the seams and screw hole indentations show up very badly.

I'm not familiar with USG Tuff Tide, but I'm certain it's not designed as a replacement for joint cement but rather a high build primer for sealing walls that had already been skimmed with joint cement( or compound).


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## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

CA Painter:
All board was finished to a Level 4 finish prior to applying the High Build primer. Tuff Hide is a primer -surfacer that is used in place of a traditional Level 5 skim coat. I think Sherwin williams and some of the paint Manufacturers have similar products. Sherwin williams I believe is called Builders solution?

I do not believe the walls and ceiling looked fine prior to the application of the epoxy but I am being told by the GC that they did.When I looked at them Friday they still had a 55% moisture content and I told them I wouldn't recommend putting the epoxy on just yet and trapping in all that moisture. The Tuff Hide is applied at a wet mil thickness of 15.
My experience with the Tuff Hide is that before it is truly cured/dried it will flash all the joints and screws but then as it sets it will become opaque in color and everything looks great.
So, I asked them to wait until I could come Monday and take a peek, and I guess someone got ambitious Sunday and applied the epoxy. When I arrived Monday the damage was done and it looks bad, really bad.
Like Oden says when you get this high of a sheen you expect some of this but this goes beyond horrible


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

DWM,

Thanks. Now I get it.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

So you primed and someone else applied finish? Why wouldn't the painter prime and paint?
To me if you still see seems and screws then the drywall finish was not sufficient. High build primers do hide some but they aren't magic. 
How many sqft are we talking about?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

drywallmomma said:


> CA Painter:
> All board was finished to a Level 4 finish prior to applying the High Build primer. Tuff Hide is a primer -surfacer that is used in place of a traditional Level 5 skim coat. I think Sherwin williams and some of the paint Manufacturers have similar products. Sherwin williams I believe is called Builders solution?
> 
> I do not believe the walls and ceiling looked fine prior to the application of the epoxy but I am being told by the GC that they did.When I looked at them Friday they still had a 55% moisture content and I told them I wouldn't recommend putting the epoxy on just yet and trapping in all that moisture. The Tuff Hide is applied at a wet mil thickness of 15.
> ...


Sounds to me as if someone else now owns the problem, given your request to wait until Monday.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

Gough said:


> Sounds to me as if someone else now owns the problem, given your request to wait until Monday.


Sounds like there's a GC in this story.


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## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

Andyman said:


> So you primed and someone else applied finish? Why wouldn't the painter prime and paint?
> To me if you still see seems and screws then the drywall finish was not sufficient. High build primers do hide some but they aren't magic.
> How many sqft are we talking about?



Andyman,
the primer/surfacer is made by the drywall company therefore they requested the drywaller to apply it. The painter has no training on it and doesnt have a rig large enough to spray it.

The finish was great however what I think Im not explaining well is this; the DAP board has a rough surface and requires a level 5 skim coat. Rather than a traditional skim coat the Tuff Hide was selected. It "creates a Level 5 finish and primes" all in one swoop. with this Tuff Hide product the finishers do a traditional Level 4, then Tuff Hide is applied to create the Level 5.

Being a drywaller and not knowing "jack" about epoxy paint, Im trying to find out how to work with the epoxy for a correction. the Tuff Hide obviously needed another coat but they painted over it anyway. I would love to say "you painted it you bought it" but Im just not that kindof person. My Company name is on this and it looks like ****!
My hope in posting on this forum is that someone can tell me how to deal with the epoxy. I think another coat of the Tuff Hide will cure the flashing, but I know we cant apply it over the top of the epoxy like you would on a regular drywall/paint repair.
the other option is to do a traditional skim coat over the epoxy but I am sure there is something that would have to be done to the epoxy first. My thought is attack it with sand paper to get "tooth". the painter wants to do the same but them hit it with some sort of "adhesive" primer. bad part is he cant tell me once he puts the adhesive primer on what exactly I can do to hide the joints. can I skim coat it then? Can I apply another layer of Hi-build".
Looking for my painting experts on this one.
we are talking about an area of approximately 4,000 sq ft of walls and ceilings over a pool in a hotel. It should have been dryvit or EIFS.
this is the price we pay when Owners and GC's try to get by cheap!
Thanks!!!
DWM


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Mud will stick to the epoxy. No problem. You can skim out the joints or whatever, I have done plenty of epoxy jobs that tapers have went back over stuff,

If u skim it out real complete. Make a big show of it. Then everyone can see you made ur best effort and the time is all used up and that is it.


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## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

Oden said:


> Mud will stick to the epoxy. No problem. You can skim out the joints or whatever, I have done plenty of epoxy jobs that tapers have went back over stuff,
> 
> If u skim it out real complete. Make a big show of it. Then everyone can see you made ur best effort and the time is all used up and that is it.



Oden you are the bomb!!That is exactly what I wanted to know, having never dealt with epoxy before. Do we need to get it sanded with some 80 grit first?
Any concerns about it reacting and bubbling up the mud?
Your time and expertise are greatly appreciated!
DWM


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't do the taping. But I've never seen any evidence of anything being done other than mudding right onto it just like it was paint. Or any problems with it.

Drywall mud has got 'grab'. Try chopping it off of a bucket it has dried onto. That stuff sticks.


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## Andyman (Feb 21, 2009)

I've also heard of guys adding some glue to the mud for those hard to stick situations.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

If you checked MC and told them to wait it needed to dry I wouldn't want to touch it.


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

DWM: 

I'm having a difficut time trying to figure out exactly what you mean by "Flashing". Is the topcoat thin or was it poorly applied? Or is the drywall finish rough and/or wasn't sanded properly? 

If it's the finish: Sand thoroughly and recoat to spec. 

If it's the drywall: Sand thoroughly, repair, prime, recoat to spec. 

Don't mud directly to unsanded epoxy - that could lead to delamination problems later. 

Epoxy is a bit of a different animal. It's high gloss so shows every defect. It's also high solids so rolling can leave unsightly texture. 

Also of note is that some types of epoxy are very temperature/moisture sensitive during application which can lead to finish problems.


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## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

Rcon said:


> DWM:
> 
> I'm having a difficut time trying to figure out exactly what you mean by "Flashing". Is the topcoat thin or was it poorly applied? Or is the drywall finish rough and/or wasn't sanded properly?
> 
> ...


Rcon,
thanks for the comments. The joints and screws are showing/shadowing. The finish is great, and was sanded. The fiberglass board has a slight texture to it so it's a visual thing. If you close your eyes and feel the walls they're perfect.
Due to the differences of texture the board manufacturers recommend a level 5 skim coat which can either be accomplished with a traditional hand skim coat or with a primer-surfacer HiBuild that creates a uniform surface texture and equalizes the porosity between the joints and the face paper of the drywall. Problem is/was that the hi-build should have had two coats, and after only one was applied they came in and applied the epoxy over it. 
Schedule dictates quality and they couldn't wait for another coat because they were digging the pool hole practically under our feet.
Of course, they now want it to look perfect. Agreed about temps and humidity. The humidity in the primed board was in the high 40-50% range when the epoxy was applied and room temps most likely around 85 degrees with about 90% humidity in the room itself. 
From the looks of it I am wondering if moisture might be trapped under the epoxy? The guy who applied the epoxy said it looked great in the primer and none of this bad stuff showed until after the epoxy was applied.
Thought?
DWM


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Pictures always help in answering these types of questions. That being said I would NOT skim over the epoxy.It will bubble and will not hold up over time. I cannot comment further without pictures


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## epretot (Dec 17, 2011)

Adhesion Primer...not adhesive primer.

He wants to apply adhesion primer because of the epoxy substrate.


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## drywallmomma (Jun 25, 2014)

epretot said:


> Adhesion Primer...not adhesive primer.
> 
> He wants to apply adhesion primer because of the epoxy substrate.


thank you for correcting me. "Adhesive" came from the GC. Once again he clearly doesnt listen 

Would the painter apply this primer after the correction to the joints and before a repaint? Or would he apply it to what is currently there and then we try and work with the joint showing problem?

Hope that makes sense. Sorry i did not take any pictures


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## akrause (May 18, 2010)

One thing I've learned is you will almost NEVER get a true smooth, high gloss paint worthy finish using porous water based compounds. If jobs allow me the time and $, I'll have my guys use Swedish oil putty by Fine Paints of Europe. It's a very low pour material that supports high gloss top coat. ***Must observe proper drying times.


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## NACE (May 16, 2008)

Was the humidity at a steady 95% when all systems were applied? What was the surface and air temp along with dew point if recorded?


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