# Certa Pro commercials



## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

Every time one is aired on tv, a kitten dies of starvation. Please make it stop.


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## BuckeyePainter (Feb 14, 2014)

Yeah, I hate those ads. It's just one of those little things that piss you off.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Even worse is having them ringing your doorbell.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

RH said:


> Even worse is having them ringing your doorbell.


This is why I have a yard sing in my yard and my mom's. We both live in cul de sacs so not much traffic but it keeps those guys away from our homes.


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm ashamed to admit that I painted for a guy who got a lot of work from them. Literally the biggest hack jobs I ever tainted my beautiful Corona brushes on.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

You all sound jealous.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RH said:


> Even worse is having them ringing your doorbell.


Or them putting their signs up by your shop....

It's a Spring ritual in our area: the nice weather seems to be here, the hungry outfits get caught by a thunderstorm while they're spraying , and the College Pro signs come out.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

The town I grew up in has a sign ordnance and the building inspector will rip them down and throw them away. He does a good job keeping up with the tele pole signs.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> You all sound jealous.


Why don't you guys do something about it ?

Get the yard signs...direct mail...start knocking on doors and get some tv/radio commercials going!!

Show them some competition! !


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> Why don't you guys do something about it ?
> 
> Get the yard signs...direct mail...start knocking on doors and get some tv/radio commercials going!!
> 
> Show them some competition! !


LOL - Seriously RP, they are not my competition (sorry- no way to state that without it sounding conceited).


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

RH said:


> LOL - Seriously RP, they are not my competition (sorry- no way to state that without it sounding conceited).


I can understand that but if your bidding against them at the same time they kinda are......and there every where....


As much as people hate them....they really have a lot of good systems and ideas.....you just need the money for marketing.....


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## capepainter (Mar 9, 2012)

Never had certain pro in our area until a couple years ago , their vans are obnoxious looking .


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

capepainter said:


> Never had certain pro in our area until a couple years ago , their vans are obnoxious looking .


Really ? I think there the greatest thing ever!! I can't wait to have my new truck wrapped up...

Personally I just think it makes a huge statement. ..if it's sitting in front of a home owners house or in front of the door of sherwin williams...

Says "industry leader"


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

You guys wouldn't want this guy quoting your painting ? Lol....

He's one of my original employees who left....started his own company. ..subbing for certa....then folded and became there estimator


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

cdpainting said:


> The town I grew up in has a sign ordnance and the building inspector will rip them down and throw them away. He does a good job keeping up with the tele pole signs.


I pay $10 for each illegally posted sign my guys turn in.
Play by the rules or get off the field.:2guns:


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> I pay $10 for each illegally posted sign my guys turn in.
> Play by the rules or get off the field.:2guns:


I get out and put mine right next to the certa.....and college pro signs...once were up and running in summer....i typically drop about 50 every other week in my area...now if I could afford to hit the the other 6 counties like that


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> I can understand that but if your bidding against them at the same time they kinda are......and there every where....
> 
> 
> As much as people hate them....they really have a lot of good systems and ideas.....you just need the money for marketing.....


As RH said, they're not really our competition, they operate in a different market segment. 

Based on what others have posted on PT, there may be some good operators, but around here, lots of people hire them to do painting...once. Never heard of anyone hiring them a second time. No wonder they have to spend so much on marketing, they're always after new marks.

It seems like the PT Barnum business model.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> As RH said, they're not really our competition, they operate in a different market segment.
> 
> Based on what others have posted on PT, there may be some good operators, but around here, lots of people hire them to do painting...once. Never heard of anyone hiring them a second time. No wonder they have to spend so much on marketing, they're always after new marks.
> 
> It seems like the PT Barnum business model.


Here they spend 300 yearly....and the owner is planning to move out of state soon....

If I had 300k...to invest annually I'd be living the dream
.lol


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

If I had to invest $300k every year in marketing to constantly find new clients, I'd have nightmares about running an unsustainable business...lol.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> If I had to invest $300k every year in marketing to constantly find new clients, I'd have nightmares about running an unsustainable business...lol.


In a luxury suite at a Jamaican resort while your general manager tends to your fires.....sounds depressing lol


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

That's not Jamaica, that's Fantasy Island.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> That's not Jamaica, that's Fantasy Island.


Yea....at Disney World...yes


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> Yea....at Disney World...yes


No, that's Fantasyworld. Never mind, it was before your time.


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## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

Gough said:


> No, that's Fantasyworld. Never mind, it was before your time.


 
time for your troll break,


again


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> No, that's Fantasyworld. Never mind, it was before your time.


I understand everyone has different ideas and what not....but why do you make it sound like the idea of investing into your business and making great money is impossible. ..i gave a real example of a guy doing great with certa pro...i know two union guys that do good also...live a luxurious lifestyle above most....

It's not impossible and is very obtainable.....


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> I understand everyone has different ideas and what not....but why do you make it sound like the idea of investing into your business and making great money is impossible. ..i gave a real example of a guy doing great with certa pro...i know two union guys that do good also...live a luxurious lifestyle above most....
> 
> It's not impossible and is very obtainable.....


Sorry, Richmond, you totally missed my point. I wasn't talking about investing in your business and making great money, both possible. 

It was talking about having to spend $300K a year to find new customers because you so rarely get repeat business. That's a business model that some would consider unsustainable. Do the math.

Also, Chrisn is right.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Sorry, Richmond, you totally missed my point. I wasn't talking about investing in your business and making great money, both possible.
> 
> It was talking about having to spend $300K a year to find new customers because you so rarely get repeat business. That's a business model that some would consider unsustainable. Do the math.
> 
> Also, Chrisn is right.


I know they don't have a ton of repeat customers. Although if you consistently have 300k to invest yearly it will work out...this particular franchise has 20-30 different sub crews painting full time almost for 9 months solid....just thinking of this guy's numbers is crazy....my rep was amazed when he spoke to there rep and heard there doing 3 million a year a year in basically just residential repaints....some commercial but not much


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> You guys wouldn't want this guy quoting your painting ? Lol....
> 
> He's one of my original employees who left....started his own company. ..subbing for certa....then folded and became there estimator
> 
> View attachment 23832


Not on you life. :no: He looks like a Best Buy employee.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

richmondpainting said:


> I know they don't have a ton of repeat customers. Although if you consistently have 300k to invest yearly it will work out...this particular franchise has 20-30 different sub crews painting full time almost for 9 months solid....just thinking of this guy's numbers is crazy....my rep was amazed when he spoke to there rep and heard there doing 3 million a year a year in basically just residential repaints....some commercial but not much


I thought you said there was no work near you


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Bender said:


> I thought you said there was no work near you


Who said that ? There isn't a lot of $500k valued homes that are easy to get too.....Not a lot of high end stuff....there is some but you really have to have an in.....


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> Who said that ? There isn't a lot of $500k valued homes that are easy to get too.....Not a lot of high end stuff....there is some but you really have to have an in.....


That "in" is called a referral.


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## midwestpainter88 (Mar 14, 2014)

Last spring college pro blew up my neighbor hood with flyers, I went around for almost 2 hrs getting rid of them. Someone mentioned hack work these guys have no idea what they are doing...


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

midwestpainter88 said:


> Last spring college pro blew up my neighbor hood with flyers, I went around for almost 2 hrs getting rid of them. Someone mentioned hack work these guys have no idea what they are doing...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


There quality of work doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful towards another contractor...reguardless of who it is


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> There quality of work doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful towards* another contractor*...reguardless of who it is


*Another contractor* that is playing people for work based on helping kids through college. Then the following spring rolls around the paint is peeling of in sheets and peeling windows that needed prep work were just painted over.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> There quality of work doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful towards another contractor...reguardless of who it is



......


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> There quality of work doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful towards another contractor...reguardless of who it is


In a way I agree but I have seen some MAJOR **** from the Certa-Pros and College Pro who have an excellent business plan for being extremely profitable. The problem is that while they talk the talk they don't walk the walk, to be clear, they get the jobs , the check, but deliver a crap product. 
I can't lump all of their crews in with the blame but I have seen some doozies in my area.

Hard to give that type of a contractor any respect.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

paintball head said:


> In a way I agree but I have seen some MAJOR **** from the Certa-Pros and College Pro who have an excellent business plan for being extremely profitable. The problem is that while they talk the talk they don't walk the walk, to be clear, they get the jobs , the check, but deliver a crap product.
> I can't lump all of their crews in with the blame but I have seen some doozies in my area.
> 
> Hard to give that type of a contractor any respect.


Ok...respect was maybe the wrong word..lol....believe me I get more complaints on college pro than any other painting company around here....i just say you get what you pay for....people who want to help college kids get exactly what they expect...no professionals and a bad job.....but I never down talk any companies even certa pro....i will explain how certa pro works....considering I know all about it...... and I always tell clients that every one has different needs but here is what we offer and how we differ...although I'm seriously considering following certa pros business model..lol


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> You guys wouldn't want this guy quoting your painting ? Lol....
> 
> He's one of my original employees who left....started his own company. ..subbing for certa....then folded and became there estimator
> 
> View attachment 23832


Poor guy, keeps getting knocked further down the totem pole at each new promotion....errrr career.

Starting a paint company to sub for certa pro, then folding tells me everything I need to know.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

MikeCalifornia said:


> Poor guy, keeps getting knocked further down the totem pole at each new promotion....errrr career.
> 
> Starting a paint company to sub for certa pro, then folding tells me everything I need to know.


He actually seems quit happy as a sales rep.....i couldn't do it but if he likes it I don't knock him.....honestly I think he will end up quiting....and coming back to me with some good experience and he will really have the Intel I need to really go head to head with certa.....now I just have to make enough doing the commercial to finance my war against the giant...lol...


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

The huge problem I've seen with Certa Pro around here is that they have a guy who knows jack about painting doing the estimating, and then pay the sub jack, leaving him with no other option but to do a complete hack job. Now you have homeowners paying top dollar for **** work. And their commercials are dishonest. They talk about how courteous and respectful these underpaid, rushed subs are towards the personal schedules and needs of the homeowner. Haha! Riiiight.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Darps said:


> The huge problem I've seen with Certa Pro around here is that they have a guy who knows jack about painting doing the estimating, and then pay the sub jack, leaving him with no other option but to do a complete hack job. Now you have homeowners paying top dollar for **** work. And their commercials are dishonest. They talk about how courteous and respectful these underpaid, rushed subs are towards the personal schedules and needs of the homeowner. Haha! Riiiight.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Pretty much


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## MikeCalifornia (Aug 26, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> He actually seems quit happy as a sales rep.....i couldn't do it but if he likes it I don't knock him.....honestly I think he will end up quiting....and coming back to me with some good experience and he will really have the Intel I need to really go head to head with certa.....now I just have to make enough doing the commercial to finance my war against the giant...lol...


What!! I expect more from you Richmond. Give certa a big "MUHAHA"


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

MikeCalifornia said:


> What!! I expect more from you Richmond. Give certa a big "MUHAHA"


I guess it really depends on the individual franchise owner....here they are huge and one of the most expensive. ...at least for your well known companies...I'm sure some small companies charge some good money but not like them......the owner isn't a painter but he's a good business man and knows painting pretty well.....


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> I guess it really depends on the individual franchise owner....here they are huge and one of the most expensive. ...at least for your well known companies...I'm sure some small companies charge some good money but not like them......the owner isn't a painter but he's a good business man and knows painting pretty well.....


From the reviews, that seems to be a counterexample to the idea that you get what you pay for.


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## Midas (May 9, 2013)

CertaPro business model works and they actually created their own business segment. 

It seems kind of crazy to say that the work is below par yet they profit in the high 6 to low 7 figures a year. I mean if they lack quality work and the next guy can offer a much better service then it would seem that copying that business model would profit twice as much. 

I personally haven't seen or heard anyone that used their service but the numbers seem to speak for themselves


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I think many of you are misguided in your thinking. What they offer works for many. It might not be what you think all painting companies should be but it works. Not everyone who needs some painting done is looking for a "craftsman"
There is a wrench for every nut out there.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

aaron61 said:


> I think many of you are misguided in your thinking. What they offer works for many. It might not be what you think all painting companies should be but it works. Not everyone who needs some painting done is looking for a "craftsman"
> There is a wrench for every nut out there.


The more we talk about it...the more I like the idea....


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

You are either running a business or you are a painter for hire. Either one is great. I used to be of the "I'm the best painter around" mind set. Then I realized I didn't want to be in the field anymore. So I had to let that ego go! Hire good people and start running a business.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

aaron61 said:


> You are either running a business or you are a painter for hire. Either one is great. I used to be of the "I'm the best painter around" mind set. Then I realized I didn't want to be in the field anymore. So I had to let that ego go! Hire good people and start running a business.


Exactly.

Most people's experiences indicate that CP has not taken that approach. They operate in a legal gray area in many, if not most, areas. Apparently, they are starting to realize that they've been operating on the wrong side of the law in many cases so it'll be interesting to see how that will play out.

They haven't helped the general reputation of our chosen trade and I think they and College Pro have made it more difficult for anyone to operate a national painting firm. An upstart will have to work hard to establish that they do business differently.


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## claudiu.ia (Mar 23, 2014)

From what I am reading most of the people have no clue when it comes to Certa pro. I am a professional and have been painting for about 15 yrs. I subcontract with them and do high end homes for picky customers where perfection is pretty much the only option. What I make on an hourly basis range anywhere from 35 to about 70 an hour. I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere where quality is not always achieved. 



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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Gough said:


> They haven't helped the general reputation of our chosen trade and I think they and College Pro have made it more difficult for anyone to operate a national painting firm. An upstart will have to work hard to establish that they do business differently.


There is no comparison between CertaPro Painters and College Painters except the company that sells the franchise.

Business models are totally different. 

Do your research all before running your mouths.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> There is no comparison between CertaPro Painters and College Painters except the company that sells the franchise.
> 
> Business models are totally different.
> 
> Do your research all before running your mouths.


Beg pardon? Completely different? Hardly.

Certainly,there are some fundamental differences, but both rely on convincing homeowners (primarily) to hire crews that turn out to be generally inexperienced and then skimming a substantial amount of the sales price, leaving the field operators to bear the financial risk. When it comes down to it, they are basically labor brokers.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

claudiu.ia said:


> From what I am reading most of the people have no clue when it comes to Certa pro. I am a professional and have been painting for about 15 yrs. I subcontract with them and do high end homes for picky customers where perfection is pretty much the only option. What I make on an hourly basis range anywhere from 35 to about 70 an hour. I'm sure there are exceptions everywhere where quality is not always achieved.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If that's indeed the case, from most reports, you seem to be the exception. Also, if you are working in IL, as your profile indicates, you might want to do some research on working as a "subcontractor" for them.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

aaron61 said:


> You are either running a business or you are a painter for hire. Either one is great. I used to be of the "I'm the best painter around" mind set. Then I realized I didn't want to be in the field anymore. So I had to let that ego go! Hire good people and start running a business.


Yes...i use to look at it as "getting a job" now I see it as a sale and transaction. ..

Much different


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> If that's indeed the case, from most reports, you seem to be the exception. Also, if you are working in IL, as your profile indicates, you might want to do some research on working as a "subcontractor" for them.


He must be in chicago...because your definitely right....that's the exception


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

I personally don't have a problem with any company making a lot of money. I have a problem with the disconnects between sales, laborers, and homeowners. There were many jobs I helped on where the owner of the company I was working for wasn't going to make money due to the fact that he went above what was expected, but didn't come close to what was actually needed. It was sad to see this guy who worked hard to start his own business get pimped out by some guy who could care less if he starved to death, or barely made it. That being said, it wasn't Certa Pro's fault that this guy needed work from them. And the fact that anyone could be on site without Certa Pro doing a background check, or at least an interview, solidified my assumption that they didn't give a crap about anything besides getting a check. 


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

Darps said:


> I personally don't have a problem with any company making a lot of money. I have a problem with the disconnects between sales, laborers, and homeowners. There were many jobs I helped on where the owner of the company I was working for wasn't going to make money due to the fact that he went above what was expected, but didn't come close to what was actually needed. It was sad to see this guy who worked hard to start his own business get pimped out by some guy who could care less if he starved to death, or barely made it. That being said, it wasn't Certa Pro's fault that this guy needed work from them. And the fact that anyone could be on site without Certa Pro doing a background check, or at least an interview, solidified my assumption that they didn't give a crap about anything besides getting a check.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Nothing personal but this guy should never have been trying to run a business if his model is to keep going back to an empty well until you go under. He sounds like a great painter but not a good business man which is often the case.
We literally get 3 or 4 calls a week from guys who were "running their own business" but can't make it and are ready to go back to being an employee.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

aaron61 said:


> You are either running a business or you are a painter for hire. Either one is great. I used to be of the "I'm the best painter around" mind set. Then I realized I didn't want to be in the field anymore. So I had to let that ego go! *Hire good people and start running a business*.


You make it sound so simple.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> You make it sound so simple.


Letting go is very hard....and coming to the realization of having better painters than yourself also.....


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

richmondpainting said:


> Letting go is very hard....and coming to the realization of having better painters than yourself also.....



Some of us are destined for management, and some of us are connected to the labor to the point we can't let go. Either way, being a businessman is definitely part of having a successful painting business. That being said, you should know the people that make you money. If you're disconnected from your laborers, you'll get burned. Buying your guys pizza once a week, giving a bonus, or a simple pat on the back goes a long way. Challenge and reward. That's how to get what you need out of employees. Certa Pro doesn't even know their employees, nor do they care.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Darps said:


> Certa Pro doesn't even know their employees, nor do they care.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


Another absurd statement!
Where does all this great CertaPro info come from.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> Another absurd statement!
> Where does all this great CertaPro info come from.


From what he's posted...personal experience.

It's clear that you are a Certa Pro fanboy, but it's also clear that others have had less positive experiences..


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Gough said:


> From what he's posted...personal experience.
> 
> It's clear that you are a Certa Pro fanboy, but it's also clear that others have had less positive experiences..


It's still an absurd statement. 
If you want success you hang with success.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> From what he's posted...personal experience.
> 
> It's clear that you are a Certa Pro fanboy, but it's also clear that others have had less positive experiences..


I can see both sides...yes they can be ridiculous and demanding....they are great also....just depends on ur Situation and where you are in your carrer. 

But looking back as there systems and how they run things....I'd love to be in a successful franchises shoes....would I want the name....never but what there given and are capable of is awesome.....

Not all are this way but from what I know...there not hurting ...it's a straight investment and those who can look at the painting industry that way....can be extremely successful


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> It's still an absurd statement.
> If you want success you hang with success.


I guess that sounds good Doc. I just look at it like this: if Certa Pro bids at 100%, gives their subcontractor 50% the differential in material savings they generate brings the payout to ~60%- well, I'd rather snag my own jobs and make the extra 40% and work less or ( in the case of a workaholic) put away even more in savings.


I realize not everyone has a silver tongue and the idea of getting good jobs is more elusive to some more than others. The idea of havong jobs picked and handed to you can be worth the extra 40%. Doc, im glad this arrangement is acceptable to you. I want you to know, that i for one am not knocking what works for you. 

I also want to address another camp that comes to the table in this discussion. Those of you who do not approve of the Certa Pro model and slam all that Certa Pro is. You are slamming your fellow brother painters that are stuck in a model that is straight production. I know why Doc takes this so personally, you are not just slamming the model, you are slamming his identity. 

For those who want to wage war against large franchises, make sure you stand to make more money than the entity that you are trying to run out of your territory.


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

oldpaintdoc said:


> Another absurd statement!
> Where does all this great CertaPro info come from.



Well, I'm a crazed axe murderer, and I worked in homes that had axes in the garage... For Certa Pro. Nobody even knew! 


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Paradigmzz said:


> I guess that sounds good Doc. I just look at it like this: if Certa Pro bids at 100%, gives their subcontractor 50% the differential in material savings they generate brings the payout to ~60%- well, I'd rather snag my own jobs and make the extra 40% and work less or ( in the case of a workaholic) put away even more in savings.
> 
> 
> I realize not everyone has a silver tongue and the idea of getting good jobs is more elusive to some more than others. The idea of havong jobs picked and handed to you can be worth the extra 40%. Doc, im glad this arrangement is acceptable to you. I want you to know, that i for one am not knocking what works for you.
> ...



:clap: Well said, it still doesn't change the skill level of the painters they are putting on jobs and the quality of work given to the unsuspecting customer. 

In no way am I trying to slam OldPaintDoc or any "fellow brother painters". If Doc is making the money he thinks is good, and he is happy, good for him. I have a former Certa Pro painter working with me and he described the whole situation to me of painters with low skill and experience levels that were pretty much in line with what I've seen first hand.

Its ridiculous to think anyone could "wage war" or "run them out of their territory" but I certainly notice how it looks when the ALMIGHTY Certa Pro has painting crews doing inferior work. I understand there are competent CP crews out there but I'd be inclined to think they aren't the norm.


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## aaron61 (Apr 29, 2007)

I have never hired anyone who said the company they worked for before I hired them was the greatest. They always talk 5hit


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

aaron61 said:


> I have never hired anyone who said the company they worked for before I hired them was the greatest. They always talk 5hit


If this was directed at me I will tell you that my guy was not talking 5hit. We were talking about who he had worked for in the past and he mentioned CP and I asked him "how was that" he had a couple of sentences for his response that were not mean spirited 5hit talk, but factual about the experience, and those facts were why he moved on instead of being "stuck" in that situation.
But yes, I would agree that for the most part guys will always talk 5hit about who they previously worked for.
To add, they sure as hell won't share the neg from the other end.


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## Darps (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm a traditionalist. I believe that the owner of a company should know his employees, and employers. The farther we get away from that as a society, the worse the quality of craftsmanship and customer service gets. 


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Darps said:


> I'm a traditionalist. I believe that the owner of a company should know his employees, and employers. The farther we get away from that as a society, the worse the quality of craftsmanship and customer service gets.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


How do you figure that?


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> *Letting go is very hard*....and coming to the realization of having better painters than yourself also.....


I agree.

It's very personal owning a business in a small town where nearly everyone is connected.

I'm ready for the next phase though.


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## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

Funny how the nation's largest painting franchise has no actual employees, just subs. Given the fact that subbing full time employees is illegal, if they only do work for you, it is grossly unfair to me that that is their business model. IMO, the whole under the table culture in painting is crap...its like the whole trade operates underground because that's the norm. It would bother me less if our competitors didn't come in a third less because they have no overhead on payroll, but that's how it is. We have found our place with clients who want real companies with insurance and real employees on the books, and we are always always busy...funny too how so many guys trying to operate under the radar are always hard up for work, at least around my area...wish there was real enforcement of the law, though. It wouldvtake some of the system cheating hacks out of the equation, and it would also help level the playing field. Too bad that'll never happen...


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

paintperfect said:


> funny how the nation's largest painting franchise has no actual employees, just subs. Given the fact that subbing full time employees is illegal, if they only do work for you, it is grossly unfair to me that that is their business model. Imo, the whole under the table culture in painting is crap...its like the whole trade operates underground because that's the norm. It would bother me less if our competitors didn't come in a third less because they have no overhead on payroll, but that's how it is. We have found our place with clients who want real companies with insurance and real employees on the books, and we are always always busy...funny too how so many guys trying to operate under the radar are always hard up for work, at least around my area...wish there was real enforcement of the law, though. It wouldvtake some of the system cheating hacks out of the equation, and it would also help level the playing field. Too bad that'll never happen...


100% bs!


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PaintPerfect said:


> Funny how the nation's largest painting franchise has no actual employees, just subs. Given the fact that subbing full time employees is illegal, if they only do work for you, it is grossly unfair to me that that is their business model. IMO, the whole under the table culture in painting is crap...its like the whole trade operates underground because that's the norm. It would bother me less if our competitors didn't come in a third less because they have no overhead on payroll, but that's how it is. We have found our place with clients who want real companies with insurance and real employees on the books, and we are always always busy...funny too how so many guys trying to operate under the radar are always hard up for work, at least around my area...wish there was real enforcement of the law, though. It wouldvtake some of the system cheating hacks out of the equation, and it would also help level the playing field. Too bad that'll never happen...


Around here there one of the more expensive companies....and the way the sub out work is totally fine...they can't help it they hire a lot of idiot subs with no ambition who only want jobs handed to them and don't want to excel and advertise.....I'm mean they do target low end...new . Up and coming companies with little experience but what's wrong with that.....they know what they need....

If a company gets to big or wants more...bye bye....find some one new.....

It's like the wife clipping coupons....hinges on double coupon day only....using her member card.....ect..

If you know what you want and how to play it....to get it at your desired price? Why wouldn't you ? 

Honestly I thought it sucked when I worked for them...but now looking back..it's genius. ....if you sell the job your self you get % 50 guaranteed. ...no risk...just straight profit....how can you complain?

Think about it....if you got got 50% of every job....if you had a partner...you would get % 25 with out doing a year labor...Not even dropping off ladders...just sell the job....wait for your check and make a courtesy call or email at the end....I'm not saying you wont have 
Fires to put out but either way...

If the customer asks you can always say..well these guys did work for me but wanted to start there own business and are slow....hintz...the reason there working for me....at least that's my case


This has opened my eyes a lot and now I'm trying to raise my prices so I can afford to sub my work out....and make my subs happy with there number...


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## Carl (Jun 18, 2011)

This makes total sense in America. Raise prices, lower quality, pay other people crap wages to do the work, hire more people to fix everything they screwed up, introduce more marketing because you are no longer getting referrals, make the big money. After installing this fantastic program I only have one question....how do you sleep at night?


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Carl said:


> This makes total sense in America. Raise prices, lower quality, pay other people crap wages to do the work, hire more people to fix everything they screwed up, introduce more marketing because you are no longer getting referrals, make the big money. After installing this fantastic program I only have one question....how do you sleep at night?


On a king sized bed on a cruise ship some where in the Mexican waters......


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Or:


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Or:


That's funny...I'm probably the he most anti police/prison person around....


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> That's funny...I'm probably the he most anti police/prison person around....


Sorry, did you think I was saying that there was a chance you'd be working in a prison??

FYI, that picture is from USPS Leavenworth, although tax offenders more commonly serve their sentences at FCIs or FPCs.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> Sorry, did you think I was saying that there was a chance you'd be working in a prison??
> 
> FYI, that picture is from USPS Leavenworth, although tax offenders more commonly serve their sentences at FCIs or FPCs.


They would probably need to build more....considering all the trades using this method but it may be cheap as the prisoners could build it themselves.....


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> They would probably need to build more....considering all the trades using this method but it may be cheap as the prisoners could build it themselves.....


There's a saying about the nails that stick up being the ones that get hammered down. Smaller, lower-profile operations are less likely to attract the attention.

There's more to "something bigger" than umbrella drinks and Jamaican resorts. There are a few other details to track.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Gough said:


> There's a saying about the nails that stick up being the ones that get hammered down. Smaller, lower-profile operations are less likely to attract the attention.
> 
> There's more to "something bigger" than umbrella drinks and Jamaican resorts. There are a few other details to track.


Well....the bigger I get the more prepared I will need to be then...right...I'm always looking for high profile stuff that leaves a legacy....it's just my thing


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## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Well....the bigger I get the more prepared I will need to be then...right...I'm always looking for high profile stuff that leaves a legacy....it's just my thing


Here's my two cents.

Balance.


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## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> 100% bs!


Explain why. Please.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

PaintPerfect said:


> Explain why. Please.


Because certa pro subs aren't employees. ...just because a lot of them are lazy and only want to work for them...it's not there fault.....and here...there not cheap....


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

richmondpainting said:


> Well....the bigger I get the more prepared I will need to be then...right...I'm always looking for high profile stuff that leaves a legacy....it's just my thing


I would never drop names of jobs or projects. There'd be no benifit. And just risk. Whatever....
Take some advice. From one who has been there. Nobody remembers or cares a little bit who painted or contracted that 'high profile' building. A young man IMO ought set his bar for his legacy someplace else. Where? I don't for sure know. But not there.
You put all ur hopes and efforts there and your gonna wind up dissappointed.


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## Savdog01 (Aug 28, 2012)

as a commercial goes...Their commercials are pretty damn good. I would love to have commercials as professional as theirs are.

That is what the topic is right? Their commercials?

Anyway, if I could switch my name for certas, i would run those commercials all year long while you guys argued on pt about how bad I paint. hahahaha


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Savdog01 said:


> as a commercial goes...Their commercials are pretty damn good. I would love to have commercials as professional as theirs are.
> 
> That is what the topic is right? Their commercials?
> 
> Anyway, if I could switch my name for certas, i would run those commercials all year long while you guys argued on pt about how bad I paint. hahahaha


good point! !!


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Just curious, does Certa Pro require Ins certificates from their subs ? I know a former worker of theirs said they didn't when he worked for them.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

Man, you guys hate anyone who actually makes money in this business. Certa Pro runs a legit business. They have to. Being the largest paint franchise in the country, don't you think that they are looked at heavily? My subs, sub for them. They make great money. They are required to have full coverage insurance. They are not employees of Certa, they own a business. We used to sub for a company by me (not Certa)and we did really well. One year we did over $600k in business from them. If anyone can drop the "traditionalists" thinking and open your eyes you might actually make great money…not good money. Get off of your high horses. Squabble all you want about Certa, they are doing lots right.

Like I have said in the past, we have a Certa Pro dealer near me. His company does over $5million per year. Love to see how many of you guys even break $50 grand a year. 

Throwing blanketed statements out on this online forum about a company that you know nothing about is just plain stupid. The franchise owners are making a living. Why do you care so much about how they supposedly run a business without even knowing anything. As you watch the commercials on TV and you see them sponsoring a major sporting event, do you really wish that that was not your company?? Bull. 

Rant over!! Time for a cocktail.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Carl said:


> *This makes total sense in America. Raise prices, lower quality, pay other people crap wages to do the work, hire more people to fix everything they screwed up, introduce more marketing because you are no longer getting referrals, *make the big money. After installing this fantastic program I only have one question....how do you sleep at night?


Some people think they're 'leading the way' or 'making their own rules' by cheating the rest of us when in reality they are only cheating themselves. Well deserved, I say.:thumbup:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

premierpainter said:


> Man, you guys hate anyone who actually makes money in this business. Certa Pro runs a legit business. They have to. Being the largest paint franchise in the country, don't you think that they are looked at heavily? My subs, sub for them. They make great money. They are required to have full coverage insurance. They are not employees of Certa, they own a business. We used to sub for a company by me (not Certa)and we did really well. One year we did over $600k in business from them. If anyone can drop the "traditionalists" thinking and open your eyes you might actually make great money…not good money. Get off of your high horses. Squabble all you want about Certa, they are doing lots right.
> 
> Like I have said in the past, we have a Certa Pro dealer near me. His company does over $5million per year. Love to see how many of you guys even break $50 grand a year.
> 
> ...


As long as it's legit, that's fine by me.

A quick check at the end of life will tell you it's not about the Benjamins, it's about integrity.

I'm a cocktail ahead of you.:whistling2:

Kevin


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

paintball head said:


> Just curious, does Certa Pro require Ins certificates from their subs ? I know a former worker of theirs said they didn't when he worked for them.


Yes..of course. ..I'm sure some don't but the guy we worked for was and is pretty successful. ..does over 2 million easily...set to do 3 this year...but some people fail miserably and probably cut a lot of corners


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Some people think they're 'leading the way' or 'making their own rules' by cheating the rest of us when in reality they are only cheating themselves. Well deserved, I say.:thumbup:


Whine!


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

PaintPerfect said:


> Explain why. Please.


Because it is. Your welcome.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

premierpainter said:


> Man, you guys hate anyone who actually makes money in this business. Certa Pro runs a legit business. They have to. Being the largest paint franchise in the country, don't you think that they are looked at heavily? My subs, sub for them. They make great money. They are required to have full coverage insurance. They are not employees of Certa, they own a business. We used to sub for a company by me (not Certa)and we did really well. One year we did over $600k in business from them. If anyone can drop the "traditionalists" thinking and open your eyes you might actually make great money…not good money. Get off of your high horses. Squabble all you want about Certa, they are doing lots right.
> 
> Like I have said in the past, we have a Certa Pro dealer near me. His company does over $5million per year. Love to see how many of you guys even break $50 grand a year.
> 
> ...


Love it.....thank you...the 50k part...lmao..

Glad some one who sub contracts stepped up and said something. ....


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

I one time checked the certa pro estimating. They are not at all cheap. Pretty much union rate or close to.
I'm sure there are painters that don't want to be employees ( having a boss, limiting income so on) but aren't feeling the estimatimg, marketing and all that jazz either of running a business. For them I'd bet it may be the best deal in town. And what is wrong with that I can't see.

I'm sure like any other mega enterprise they have excellent people and terrible people who are for a period under their umbrella.

Not for nothing I'd be willing to bet the paint doc has more free time and a clearer head than do his critiques in this thread....
You get to pik up on personalities on the forum....I think the man enjoys his free time and his clear head more than he needs that percentage he leaves on the table to have it be so.


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## premierpainter (Apr 17, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Love it.....thank you...the 50k part...lmao.. Glad some one who sub contracts stepped up and said something. ....


You're welcome. A lot of armchair quarterbacks around here and quite frankly I'm getting a little tired of it
Next cocktail please


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm not mad at Certa one bit. They set up a business plan and it seems to work..good for them.
I use to be salty when I heard the name Certapro, but mainly out of spite that they didn't stand for what I do....me being a small company, having 3-4 employees, not enough capital to advertise more to compete with them, they sub out their work for 50% of contract, not including materials (correct me if I'm wrong), and by pass a lot of the things all of us armchair quarterbacks have to deal with trying to run a successful business. 
The reason I'm not mad at them is because they will bid jobs as high as the market will allow because they have to...If they sub out their work, they have to bid the work at $70.00+ an hour just to hire a somewhat respectable sub at $35.00. Small businesses should always be able to beat Certa on price comparing apples to apples and as long as Certa doesn't abuse their subs and expect them to make 15hr.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

MKap said:


> I'm not mad at Certa one bit. They set up a business plan and it seems to work..good for them.
> I use to be salty when I heard the name Certapro, but mainly out of spite that they didn't stand for what I do....me being a small company, having 3-4 employees, not enough capital to advertise more to compete with them, they sub out their work for 50% of contract, not including materials (correct me if I'm wrong), and by pass a lot of the things all of us armchair quarterbacks have to deal with trying to run a successful business.
> The reason I'm not mad at them is because they will bid jobs as high as the market will allow because they have to...If they sub out their work, they have to bid the work at $70.00+ an hour just to hire a somewhat respectable sub at $35.00. Small businesses should always be able to beat Certa on price comparing apples to apples and as long as Certa doesn't abuse their subs and expect them to make 15hr.


Here they charge $38.00/hour......my old foreman is there new estimator


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## MKap (Sep 11, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> Here they charge $38.00/hour......my old foreman is there new estimator


Certa pro subs out work for half of $38 an hour to legitimate contractors?


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

MKap said:


> Certa pro subs out work for half of $38 an hour to legitimate contractors?


Yes....I've seen break downs after paint and hours as low as $14.00/hour....

The key is to finish the job fast and in one day....and hope you get a good job...bid right...

I try telling everyone that the market here isn't high dollar.....i struggle to get $45 here.....


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> Whine!


No worries, you cannot hide from yourself.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

This is a fascinating thread. I never heard of CP until reading about them on here (or if I did I didn't pay attention). Since then I have noticed their cards in SW. 

It puts me in mind of a book I read in sociology a long time ago, 'The Mcdonilization of America' I think it was. 

I guess the haters are coming from the same place as those that hate big box stores, wall mart, etc.. Fight the power!!


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## PaintPerfect (Sep 19, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> Because it is. Your welcome.


It's only bs if what's being done is legit. Personally, we have found our niche and it works for us, but we compete with those who operate by rolling the dice and ducking the rules and laws. If your experience is that CP is legit, that's good to know. I'm certainly not here to talk smack about anyone legit. The world of subbing around here has led our state to create a task force to deal with misclassified employees and 1099 fraud because it is rampant. If my connecting that name with the cheaters/hacks of the world was wrong or unfair, I'm certainly not above rebuke or an apology for that matter. To me, it SEEMS sketchy to have someone quote work to a prospective client but then hires someone for you that you don't know anything about. We have no beef with anyone doing things legit. Zero. My apologies if that's not what my original statement implied.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

richmondpainting said:


> Here they charge $38.00/hour......my old foreman is there new estimator


This is like saying your old lady left you for another woman:001_unsure:


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

PaintPerfect said:


> It's only bs if what's being done is legit. Personally, we have found our niche and it works for us, but we compete with those who operate by rolling the dice and ducking the rules and laws. If your experience is that CP is legit, that's good to know. I'm certainly not here to talk smack about anyone legit. The world of subbing around here has led our state to create a task force to deal with misclassified employees and 1099 fraud because it is rampant. If my connecting that name with the cheaters/hacks of the world was wrong or unfair, I'm certainly not above rebuke or an apology for that matter. To me, it SEEMS sketchy to have someone quote work to a prospective client but then hires someone for you that you don't know anything about. We have no beef with anyone doing things legit. Zero. My apologies if that's not what my original statement implied.


If there's anything to the rumors about Certa Pro moving away from the "subcontractor" approach, they may be seeing that they're not quite as legit as they thought, in some areas. It sounds like some states are being more aggressive than others, especially about part B of the "ABC Test".


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

I may be asking a stupid question, but that's never stopped me before. I'm pretty sure we don't have Certa Pro here in Canada, but I'm wondering if they're similar to College Pro Painters?


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

premierpainter said:


> Throwing blanketed statements out on this online forum about a company that you know nothing about is just plain stupid. The franchise owners are making a living. Why do you care so much about how they supposedly run a business without even knowing anything. As you watch the commercials on TV and you see them sponsoring a major sporting event, do you really wish that that was not your company?? Bull.
> 
> Rant over!! Time for a cocktail.


This armchair QB doesn't have entire websites dedicated to how bad we suck


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## dan-o (Sep 28, 2008)

Gough said:


> If there's anything to the rumors about Certa Pro moving away from the "subcontractor" approach, they may be seeing that they're not quite as legit as they thought, in some areas.


I'm not quite sure how Roamer's comment, in reference to a single franchise owner in his PDCA group who plans to move to employees from subs, got spun as CertaPro the business changing their whole business model.

I've never been involved with CP at any level, but the franchises are individually owned. CP Inc, has no control or liability in regards to how these franchises are structured and I suspect they couldn't care less as long as the royalty checks clear.

My guess is the CP owner in question has issues finding/keeping reliable subs and is considering employees to solve that problem. Hardly a paradigm shift at the corporate level or an admission of guilt.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I may be asking a stupid question, but that's never stopped me before. I'm pretty sure we don't have Certa Pro here in Canada, but I'm wondering if they're similar to College Pro Painters?


Contrary to what many believe, no they are not. 
They only thing they have in common is the company that sells the franchise.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> I may be asking a stupid question, but that's never stopped me before. I'm pretty sure we don't have Certa Pro here in Canada, but I'm wondering if they're similar to College Pro Painters?


They're in Canada as well.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/franchises/certapropaintersltd/282187-0.html#


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> They're in Canada as well.
> 
> http://www.entrepreneur.com/franchises/certapropaintersltd/282187-0.html#


Huh, interesting. In the 11 years I've been in the industry I've never heard of them or seen them anywhere. Now College Pro, that's another story. They're like parasites that flood areas every few years with advertising, come in at dirt cheap prices and generally do terrible jobs.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Some people think they're 'leading the way' or 'making their own rules' by cheating the rest of us when in reality they are only cheating themselves. Well deserved, I say.:thumbup:


If someone is "leading the way" and "making their own rules" how is that cheating the rest of you?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

Wildbill7145 said:


> Huh, interesting. In the 11 years I've been in the industry I've never heard of them or seen them anywhere. Now College Pro, that's another story. They're like parasites that flood areas every few years with advertising, come in at dirt cheap prices and generally do terrible jobs.


Compared to the US presence, they have a relatively small number of franchisees in Canada. They actually started in Canada.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

Gough said:


> They actually started in Canada.


From the trending theme in this thread, all I can say is... Sorry 'bout that.


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Gough said:


> Compared to the US presence, they have a relatively small number of franchisees in Canada. They actually started in Canada.



They are here. They lf have employees here though. But the foreman are giving x amount for the job and any employees sent to help are paid from that x amount. 

For example. I was doing an interior while certa was doing the exterior. 

The Forman told me, the job was sold at 16500.00 and he got 5200 for it and any labour was taken out from that 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> If someone is "leading the way" and "making their own rules" how is that cheating the rest of you?


OPD, I know we have different views on these issues. I agree that they are "leading the way", but feel that they are leading in the direction that doesn't raise the level of the trade.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Gough said:


> OPD, I know we have different views on these issues. I agree that they are "leading the way", but feel that they are leading in the direction that doesn't raise the level of the trade.


That's cool! 
And I respect all for their views.
I may make comment but really mean nothing personal.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Bender said:


> This armchair QB doesn't have entire websites dedicated to how bad we suck


A big part of being a big painting company or corporation is accepting that you will have good review and bad reviews....i didn't get the concept either...than I realized when you have 70 Angie's list reviews....and say 10 are bad...people seem to look past those...you have to take the good with the bad...when your big your more open to criticism. ..it can hurt you either way....but when your bigger it doesn't hurt as much


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

richmondpainting said:


> A big part of being a big painting company or corporation is accepting that you will have good review and bad reviews....i didn't get the concept either...than I realized when you have 70 Angie's list reviews....and say 10 are bad...people seem to look past those...you have to take the good with the bad...when your big your more open to criticism. ..it can hurt you either way....but when your bigger it doesn't hurt as much


True, if you are big it's ok to suck


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

richmondpainting said:


> Yes....I've seen break downs after paint and hours as low as $14.00/hour....
> 
> The key is to finish the job fast and in one day....and hope you get a good job...bid right...
> 
> I try telling everyone that the market here isn't high dollar.....i struggle to get $45 here.....


Its not possible to sustain any business at $14 hr, these are just jobs for unemployable painters.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

straight_lines said:


> Its not possible to sustain any business at $14 hr, these are just jobs for unemployable painters.


There are some that say that Certa Pro's business model depends on a steady supply of unemployable painters.

That's not to say that there aren't skilled mechanics who work for them or conscientious owners who work hard to buck the trend.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

straight_lines said:


> Its not possible to sustain any business at $14 hr, these are just jobs for unemployable painters.


But these are guys with little experience who are just happy being there own boss...don't want to advertise or do bids...a lot of foreigners who leave every winter.....and from making $10.00/ hour to be your own boss.....with endless work loads....when I was doing it we had 6-11 guys on one house...worked 7 days a week and pretty much finished any house in a day....full trailer...every ladder I owned..two sprayer going....no one leaves till check is in hand!! When you analyze the number of hours worked and profit...it probably sucked....but the lump of money I was making vs working on one house a week of mine.....or being paid as an employee. ...it was way better...

I really miss my house a day.....days....

You feel soo acomplished....i did 5 full houses in 7 days once!! Yes...yes...


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> If someone is "leading the way" and "making their own rules" how is that cheating the rest of you?


 You alluded to operating illegitamately in regards to subcontracting and RRP.

If that's what you're doing it's just plain stealing.
"Leading the way" to the bottom perhaps.

If you operate a legit biz, good on ya.:thumbsup:


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> You alluded to operating illegitamately in regards to subcontracting and RRP.
> 
> If that's what you're doing it's just plain stealing.
> "Leading the way" to the bottom perhaps.
> ...


What I do or don't do still is not cheating anyone. 
Free Market will make me or break me.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> What I do or don't do still is not cheating anyone.
> Free Market will make me or break me.


And really no one's business either......


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> And really no one's business either......


You guys aren't really "big-picture guys" are you?


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> And really no one's business either......


Except on a forum such as this where anything posted is fair game for anyone's opinion - as long as they are following the site rules. As a regular member, if you don't want your position, business, or procedures commented on, positively or negatively, don't put them out there.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> But these are guys with little experience who are just happy being there own boss...don't want to advertise or do bids...a lot of foreigners who leave every winter.....and from making $10.00/ hour to be your own boss.....with endless work loads....when I was doing it we had 6-11 guys on one house...worked 7 days a week and pretty much finished any house in a day....full trailer...every ladder I owned..two sprayer going....no one leaves till check is in hand!! When you analyze the number of hours worked and profit...it probably sucked....but the lump of money I was making vs working on one house a week of mine.....or being paid as an employee. ...it was way better...
> 
> I really miss my house a day.....days....
> 
> You feel soo acomplished....i did 5 full houses in 7 days once!! Yes...yes...


I'm not sure everyone would consider that as being your own boss. Not saying it doesn't work for some, and for many it may be a good stepping stone towards running your own show, just that their situation doesn't quite qualify as an independent business owner IMO.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Gough said:


> You guys aren't really "big-picture guys" are you?


At 58 years old I see no reason to be a big picture guy.
Been there done that!
Life is so much more enjoyable now.


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## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> At 58 years old I see no reason to be a big picture guy.
> Been there done that!
> Life is so much more enjoyable now.


If it works for *you* then that's all that matters.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

RH said:


> Except on a forum such as this where anything posted is fair game for anyone's opinion - as long as they are following the site rules. As a regular member, if you don't want your position, business, or procedures commented on, positively or negatively, don't put them out there.


I understand that.
This is all for fun.
Never had my feeling hurt on here yet.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

oldpaintdoc said:


> At 58 years old I see no reason to be a big picture guy.
> Been there done that!
> Life is so much more enjoyable now.


I'm assuming that you missed what I meant by the big picture. I was talking about the social contract and tacit consent. 

Big ideas for a painter's forum, I know.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Tacit

Triple Word Score!


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

RH said:


> I'm not sure everyone would consider that as being your own boss. Not saying it doesn't work for some, and for many it may be a good stepping stone towards running your own show, just that their situation doesn't quite qualify as an independent business owner IMO.


Your totally right....it's a stepping stone and money in your pocket till a better option comes along....it's a good start honestly. ...gives you experience with taking on too much expense or risk


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

richmondpainting said:


> Your totally right....it's a stepping stone and money in your pocket till a better option comes along....it's a good start honestly. ...gives you experience with taking on too much expense or risk


As long as you don't pick up any bad habits....


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Gough said:


> I'm assuming that you missed what I meant by the big picture. I was talking about the social contract and tacit consent.
> 
> Big ideas for a painter's forum, I know.


Locke's big picture no longer exists with today's government. 
It's more like a postage stamp size picture.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

It's a brave new certaprow world.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> What I do or don't do still is not cheating anyone.
> Free Market will make me or break me.


Choosing to operate outside the system while using the benefits the system provides is unethical. Sort of like abusing welfare.

If that is how you operate, then you are correct.
You are 'leading the way' in the race to the bottom.
Probably riding a Vespa and smoking an E Cig like the commercials show you 'rebels' doing.
You go Grrrrrl!:thumbsup:


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

Monstertruck said:


> Choosing to operate outside the system while using the benefits the system provides is unethical. Sort of like abusing welfare.


Like this?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/20/1195554/-64-Major-U-S-Corporations-Only-Paid-8-1-in-Taxes


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> Choosing to operate outside the system while using the benefits the system provides is unethical. Sort of like abusing welfare. If that is how you operate, then you are correct. You are 'leading the way' in the race to the bottom. Probably riding a Vespa and smoking an E Cig like the commercials show you 'rebels' doing. You go Grrrrrl!:thumbsup:


How it got on that point I dunno. But Yeh what Bender posted. If a working man subscribes himself to some sort of ethics or whatever and loses out or sacrifices him and his then it his own stupid fault and he deserves what he gets. They count on most of you having some bull**** principles that they don't. And they are laughing at you,

All iis fair in love and war and money. Get away with whatever you can get away with,


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> Choosing to operate outside the system while using the benefits the system provides is unethical. Sort of like abusing welfare.
> 
> If that is how you operate, then you are correct.
> You are 'leading the way' in the race to the bottom.
> ...


Wow!
You have me pictured perfectly. 
Do you want to race?


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> wow!
> You have me pictured perfectly.
> Do you want to race?


maximize!!


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

Bender said:


> Like this?
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/20/1195554/-64-Major-U-S-Corporations-Only-Paid-8-1-in-Taxes


It's wrong no matter who does it.
All the ill-gotten money in the world can't buy integrity.
Wouldn't it be a hoot if an auditor paid one of you fellers a visit courtesy of this discussion?:hang:

Here, have some more rope....


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> It's wrong no matter who does it.
> All the ill-gotten money in the world can't buy integrity.
> Wouldn't it be a hoot if an auditor paid one of you fellers a visit courtesy of this discussion?:hang:
> 
> Here, have some more rope....


I'm not sure what in this conversation you think insinuates anyone is doing anything wrong? 

I'm assuming your talking about taxes


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Monstertruck said:


> It's wrong no matter who does it.
> All the ill-gotten money in the world can't buy integrity.
> Wouldn't it be a hoot if an auditor paid one of you fellers a visit courtesy of this discussion?:hang:
> 
> Here, have some more rope....


I will have the coffee on for them.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

oldpaintdoc said:


> I will have the coffee on for them.


But... But... You "make your own rules" 

How can that be?


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

paintball head said:


> But... But... You "make your own rules"
> 
> How can that be?


Well, maybe I follow some rules.
Maybe.
Sometimes. 
And then again.


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Not coming across as completely above board Mr. Vespa riding Certa Pro Man.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

paintball head said:


> Not coming across as completely above board Mr. Vespa riding Certa Pro Man.


Ya ever ride a Vespa?
They are a riot.
Hauling my ladders is a little tuff but the gas mileage is great.


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## Oden (Feb 8, 2012)

This is a Vespa. I looked it up.


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

Oden said:


> This is a Vespa. I looked it up.


I like the pink ones.
Are they not just the cutest damn things?


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## paintball head (Mar 3, 2012)

Do you pull a trailer with that Vespa or just buck those ladders on your shoulder?


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## oldpaintdoc (Apr 11, 2010)

paintball head said:


> Do you pull a trailer with that Vespa or just buck those ladders on your shoulder?


Depends on if SW will deliver paint to where I am painting.


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## slinger58 (Feb 11, 2013)

OPD, you are rocking today. May the spirit of independence live on with ya! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> I'm not sure what in this conversation you think insinuates anyone is doing anything wrong?
> 
> I'm assuming your talking about taxes


Taxes and RRP.
OPD claims to be leading the way in how to skirt the law.
Some sort of rebel or 'independent' thinker.
Hopefully he's legit and just having fun here at PT.:thumbup:


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

oldpaintdoc said:


> I will have the coffee on for them.


I'll make a call in the morning so you don't have to drink alone


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> Taxes and RRP.
> OPD claims to be leading the way in how to skirt the law.
> Some sort of rebel or 'independent' thinker.
> Hopefully he's legit and just having fun here at PT.:thumbup:


Personally I don't care what anyone does here.....i have my own business to worry about.....i would never tell on anyone and nor would I wish trouble upon anyone. .

I know a roofer in town who called OSHA on a fellow competitor....no one likes him now and anyone who know what happened....warns others....that's not a way to conduct business...there is enough business out there for everyone and no need to be a snitch.....


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> Personally I don't care what anyone does here.....i have my own business to worry about.....i would never tell on anyone and nor would I wish trouble upon anyone. .
> 
> I know a roofer in town who called OSHA on a fellow competitor....no one likes him now and anyone who know what happened....warns others....that's not a way to conduct business...*there is enough business* out there for everyone and no need to be a snitch.....


Either you're legit and actually running a 'business' or your're some sort of sleaz scamming the system.


_"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)_

Which one are you?

Of all people, I would think a national baller would have the integrity to run a legitamate business.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> Either you're legit and actually running a 'business' or your're some sort of sleaz scamming the system.
> 
> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
> 
> ...


Were not talking about me.....I'm talking about Americans in general...you can critique me all you want but I'm a firm believer in the American dream....if somebody thinks the only way out....i selling Crack in the projects...I'm no one to judge...if it feeds his family....more power to them.....laws are laws and we know many of them are ridiculous....society made up the American dream and people should be able to follow it....and I'm not personally stopping anyone...if the government does...or the police....that's fine...but I let people do what they need to do.....


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## Painter-Aaron (Jan 17, 2013)

Until somebody is selling crack to your daughter 


Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Until somebody is selling crack to your daughter
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


I figured I would get that reply.....and no...I'm not saying I would like it but kids are going to be kids and there is nothing you can do about it...they will do it one way or another....crack is kinda a bad example cuse it's that bad but I'm a big advocate of victimless crimes...and drug related ones have no victims...


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> I'm a big advocate of victimless crimes......
































Every time I think you can't possibly say something more absurd, you prove me wrong.


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## Monstertruck (Oct 26, 2013)

richmondpainting said:


> Were not talking about me.....I'm talking about Americans in general...you can critique me all you want but I'm a firm believer in the American dream....if somebody thinks the only way out....i selling Crack in the projects...*I'm no one to judge*...if it feeds his family....more power to them.....laws are laws and we know many of them are ridiculous....society made up the American dream and people should be able to follow it....and I'm not personally stopping anyone...if the government does...or the police....that's fine...but I let people do what they need to do.....


At least you got part of it right.



The American dream is not to sell crack to OPD's daughter or give yours lead poisoning by skirtting RRP.
Neither is it the dream to operate a illegitimate biz for tax advantages if you are actually an employee.


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Jmayspaint said:


> Every time I think you can't possibly say something more absurd, you prove me wrong.


I think the same....the concepts are simple and it's hard to believe a lot more people don't feel the same....so it's hard to believe more don't share the beliefs


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## richmondpainting (Feb 24, 2012)

Monstertruck said:


> At least you got part of it right.
> 
> The American dream is not to sell crack to OPD's daughter or give yours lead poisoning by skirtting RRP.
> Neither is it the dream to operate a illegitimate biz for tax advantages if you are actually an employee.


Its something I feel strongly about...society has created a monster and should have to deal with it...and throwing every other American in jail is not the answer


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Painter-Aaron said:


> Until somebody is selling crack to your daughter
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PaintTalk.com


I'm actually feeling the urge to defend RP here on this. 

Whatever RP does in the field for his business, it has no effect on people selling drugs to his daughter, unless RP manufactures crack cocaine for his business. 

My next statement would be considered "political" because I would make the point that the war on drugs and making drugs illegal has done nothing but make the cartels very profitable. It has not made the drug problem better.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

Wow! Man, I sure have missed this place! Lol  

Maybe I'm getting old, but I don't care anymore. I paint my houses and when I'm not working I spend as much time as I can with my 9 year old son. :thumbsup: Not much else matters to me these days. :no:

College Pro, Certa, whatever. Whatever. These type of outfits are nothing new and they are not going away. I would rather see these kids working on these jobs then being 30 years old and still living at home with Mom drawing welfare.


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