# Toughest product for a deck



## Brilliant_Painting (Feb 3, 2017)

my neighbor wants his deck painted and they said they want something extra tough. They have painted it with latex paints and they are unconvinced their any good since they have had to repaint it every year, so what is the best non-water based product i can use on this deck.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Brilliant_Painting said:


> my neighbor wants his deck painted and they said they want something extra tough. They have painted it with latex paints and they are unconvinced their any good since they have had to repaint it every year, so what is the best non-water based product i can use on this deck.


Most Deck paints are water based these days. 90% of paint failures are from improper prep work..Unless they want to rebuild the deck, your going to have to remove as much of the old paint as possible, Prime with good oil bridging primer then continue with deck paint.


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## dwallon60 (Apr 22, 2018)

Brilliant_Painting said:


> my neighbor wants his deck painted and they said they want something extra tough. They have painted it with latex paints and they are unconvinced their any good since they have had to repaint it every year, so what is the best non-water based product i can use on this deck.


Alot of times, customer want something because "someone" told them it was better. The problem with a painted deck is that the deck needs to breath otherwise moisture works it's way under the paint and causes it to blister then peel. Putting an oil paint on a deck not only is not a better solution, it is catastrophically worse, since an oil paint or primer is designed to seal the surface, so unless you do this to all 4 sides of every board, moisture will get underneath. 
My suggestion is to get everything off that you can and then use either Restore from Rustoleum (4x) or use deck and dock from sw. Deck And Dock you do not use a primer with but the Restore does.
Take your pick, but either should work as long as you properly prep and put enough mil thickness.:smile:


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Restore? Really? Right after Rustoleum started making payouts because of the class action suit they lost because of the 80% failure rate using Restore? F-ing BRILLIANT!


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PACman said:


> Restore? Really? Right after Rustoleum started making payouts because of the class action suit they lost because of the 80% failure rate using Restore? F-ing BRILLIANT!


Would Sherwin Williams be stupid enough to continue selling the exact same product?


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## mDUB562 (Jul 31, 2012)

When it comes to decks I don't think "toughest" is the best. My reason is that all coatings are going to fail within a similar amount of years. The "weaker" coatings like stains are very simple to reapply and don't look too bad as they wear. The "tougher" coatings tend to crack and chip and need to be removed before being recoated. Also, they don't tend to age well.
I highly recommend Duckback now called SuperDeck. They have an entire line of products. Solid Color Stain being the best for most decks (Deck and Dock being an elastomeric solution for a deck that is in terrible condition). This is a self priming system.
The trick to this product is DO NOT pressure wash and use the appropriate cleaner made by SuperDeck. There are 3 cleaners depending on the condition of the deck. 


SURFACE PREPARATION: All surfaces must be clean, dry, and free from dirt, mildew stains, dust and other foreign matter. Do not apply over sealed surfaces. Remove surface stains, dirt and failed oxidized stains with Superdeck® Wood Cleaner. Remove solid stains or paints with Superdeck® Wood Stripper. For redwood and cedar, follow cleaning or stripping with Superdeck® Wood Brightener to remove tannin stains and brighten wood to its original color. For new wood remove mill glaze with Superdeck® Wood Brightener. 
PRODUCT PREPARATION: Product should be shaken or stirred from bottom of container before and during application. When using more than one container of product, intermix all product and stir well to ensure color consistency. Fill level before tinting. Product may be tinted. Test a small area first for color satisfaction.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> Would Sherwin Williams be stupid enough to continue selling the exact same product?


Yes. And there are several other companies facing class action suits this year. Behr being the main one.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Superdeck. (teehee!)


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

If you neighbor is looking for the toughest product for a deck then they should invest in Trex or Ipe deck boards. 

Storm Systems has some great products and the ones they market as lasting the longest are their Solid Stains. 
https://www.stormsystem.com/products/category-4/

Most homeowners expectations are unrealistic expectations for how long deck coatings should last. This is one of the reason why I hate working on decks.


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## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Start with the right materials*



PNW Painter said:


> If you neighbor is looking for the toughest product for a deck then they should invest in Trex or Ipe deck boards.
> 
> Storm Systems has some great products and the ones they market as lasting the longest are their Solid Stains.
> https://www.stormsystem.com/products/category-4/
> ...


Good points. On the natural side there are these woods:

https://www.heavy-timber.com/hardwoods-and-exotics

futtyos


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

I had a customer use Storm solid on a deck three years ago and last summer he could power wash tree sap off of it without damaging it at all. On a deck right on lake Erie. The homeowner hadn't had anything last more than two years on that deck in over 25 years. This is the third summer coming up and my customer says it looks like he did it a week ago.

Never in thirty+ years in the paint business have i heard of a non-industrial product that has lasted that well. In fact most "industrial" paints i have seen are hard pressed to last that long and look as good as this deck does.

The key? Word of the day! PERMEABILITY! Read it! Learn it! LIVE IT!


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

"The key? Word of the day! PERMEABILITY! Read it! Learn it! LIVE IT!" --PACman 5/1/18

PAC, you channeling your inner Brad Hamilton?


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## radio11 (Aug 14, 2015)

I still clean several decks each year and stain/restain a few. I don’t like fooling with them—if I can avoid it. I have always worked by “word of mouth” and just don’t want my name tied to the elastomeric fiasco. Google the Behr product. Class Action Lawsuit pops up real quick. 


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

radio11 said:


> I still clean several decks each year and stain/restain a few. I don’t like fooling with them—if I can avoid it. I have always worked by “word of mouth” and just don’t want my name tied to the elastomeric fiasco. Google the Behr product. Class Action Lawsuit pops up real quick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. If your going to go through the trouble of completely stripping a deck,
and using elastomeric (which I assume would have to be on all 4 sides of the board for warranty?) I would just rip up the boards and put down new ones..


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I've always used Flood solid color stain but the formula has changed in recent years.

https://www.flood.com/products/wood-stain/solid-stain/pro-solid-color

It's still urethane-fortified but they have taken out the 'EB emulsa bond" which helped with penetration and adhesion. It's probably one of the best 100% acrylic stains on the market but it was once much better with the EB emulsa bond added. Why did they F with such a good product? I bought a gallon of EB emulsa bond and add it to each gallon of stain myself.
https://www.flood.com/products/paint-additives/e-b-emulsa-bond


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> I've always used Flood solid color stain but the formula has changed in recent years.
> 
> https://www.flood.com/products/wood-stain/solid-stain/pro-solid-color
> 
> ...


Simple box store economics my friend! In order for PPG to make a profit, and for the box stores to make their profit as well, the cost had to come down. And the EB was just one of the ways they made the product cheaper. For a long time i sold this product with pretty good confidence that if the prep was done correctly it would hold up pretty well. Now? No. Not at all. Menard's as an example is selling it for literally the same price i was selling it for 20 years ago. Name one other consumer product OTHER than paint products that hasn't seen a significant price increase in the last twenty years. Twenty years ago, an egg McMuffin was $.89. Now? Over $3.00. Flood Solid stain? $18.99 twenty years ago. Now? At Menard's at 6:30 this morning? $18.99.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

PACman said:


> Simple box store economics my friend! In order for PPG to make a profit, and for the box stores to make their profit as well, the cost had to come down. And the EB was just one of the ways they made the product cheaper. For a long time i sold this product with pretty good confidence that if the prep was done correctly it would hold up pretty well. Now? No. Not at all. Menard's as an example is selling it for literally the same price i was selling it for 20 years ago. Name one other consumer product OTHER than paint products that hasn't seen a significant price increase in the last twenty years. Twenty years ago, an egg McMuffin was $.89. Now? Over $3.00. Flood Solid stain? $18.99 twenty years ago. Now? At Menard's at 6:30 this morning? $18.99.


I just checked and Menards doesn't sell the acrylic 'Pro Series' by Flood.
https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=flood+stain

My contractor's price for the Flood Pro Series is $38.00/gallon in Canada. Most acrylic stains are about $27.00/gallon at my cost. BM charges me $46.00/gallon for Arborcoat acrylic stain, and it isn't fortified with urethane like Flood stain.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Mr Smith said:


> I just checked and Menards doesn't sell the acrylic 'Pro Series' by Flood.
> https://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=flood+stain
> 
> My contractor's price for the Flood Pro Series is $38.00/gallon in Canada. Most acrylic stains are about $27.00/gallon at my cost. BM charges me $46.00/gallon for Arborcoat acrylic stain, and it isn't fortified with urethane like Flood stain.


Oh you're in Canada. That's like an entirely different country or something.


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## Tprice2193 (Oct 3, 2017)

@PACman - thanks for the economic/consumerism explanation. We are being played by all the big boxes. Just talked to a butcher who is a casualty of the big box. Met him at Shorty's a hole in the wall diner next to McDonald's. Could have ate for $2 less at McDonalds but I refuse. I appreciate and gladly pay for good service whether it be paint or food. I can count on one hand the number of times I was in HD, Lowes, and Walmart in the past year. We gotta stand up! This consumerism is being forced on us and we just lap it up thinking we are getting a good deal. Never picked up a lead at the drive thru at McDonalds but I have picked up many at Shorty's. Thanks to the independent businesses that continue to hold on and provide us with good products and knowledge about their use. I have hope the tide will turn but a lot of damage has already been done.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Back to the permeability thing. FYI, putting a product on that is "4x" or "10x" thicker isn't making the product more permeable. It's just like putting on a coating that is like 4x or 10x thicker Saran wrap. It may be more durable Saran wrap, but that sure as hell isn't what you want on horizontal wood. Unless you are making, marketing, and selling a product based on what consumers tell you THEY think they need instead of what actually works.

Deck restore type products are a perfect example of manufacturers just making a product to sell based on public perception instead of going AGAINST the public and making a product that actually works. Paint companies pretty much always prefer to make the product consumers THINK they need instead of going through the trouble and EXPENSE of trying to SELL a product that does work. It takes actual knowledgeable SALESPEOPLE to do that, and the box stores have no intention of hiring them because they would cost more to employ.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

Solid colors fail on decks from my experience. Any thing the forms a film is not a good option on a deck. Doesnt matter if its solid color stain, paint, or restore products. If it already has a solid color than you are kinda stuck with it. Semi Transparent stains are what I like to use on a deck but its not always possible. Those fail I guess but since they dont form a film its an easy process to redo them. Thats just my two cents


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## CK_68847 (Apr 17, 2010)

It’s expensive, but Gemini deck revive will never fail. You put down a special clear coat primer first and you buy a gallon of any good exterior semi gloss and you mix the sand and resin in it and apply the product. It will actually look flat when it’s done. The Gemini rep I have swears buy it and gave me countless examples throughout the country where it’s worked. I put it on two years ago, and it still looks perfect. I live in an area where there are big temperature swings. Winters are very cold and harsh with hot summers.


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## Brilliant_Painting (Feb 3, 2017)

what is "EB emusla bond" ? And where do you buy it?


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Brilliant_Painting said:


> what is "EB emusla bond" ? And where do you buy it?


Most paint stores or paint departments would. My local Menard's, Lowe's, and Home depot all carry small quantities of it. I don't know if SW carries it because it is a PPG owned company and they typically don't carry each others' product lines. A PPG/Glidden/Porter/Monarch/Pioneer (you get the picture) store would probably have it or be able to order it for you.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I agree. If your going to go through the trouble of completely stripping a deck,
> and using elastomeric (which I assume would have to be on all 4 sides of the board for warranty?) I would just rip up the boards and put down new ones..



Right! All 4 sides, caulked and painted/stained, What Fun! I HATE!!! crawling around under decks! :vs_mad:


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Brilliant_Painting said:


> what is "EB emusla bond" ? And where do you buy it?



I have some on my shelf 10 years old if you want it! Never had someone ask me for it but any paint store will be able to order it since the sundry wholesalers carry it.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Flood exterior waterborne stain has emulsabond in it already. I know the warranty doesnt mean much, but it says 10 years on decks, and 25 years on siding. I've never seen a better warranty.https://www.flood.com/products/wood-stain/solid-stain/pro-solid-color


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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

I heard yesterday that Sansin ENS is absolutely spectacular as far as durability and longevity for decks even though it's marketed for vertical surfaces. 

My Miller Paint store manager told me about it, and has had great feedback for about 2 years at least on it. 

It will go over existing products...
It's a waterborne, honey tone, two coat product, really sticks. "It ain't coming off" , he says.

It's the one on the right here... sample is a coat of Sansin "dec", then 2 coats of the ENS. 

Expensive at around $100/gallon but that's worth quality. 
I like Proluxe DEK a lot and that's about $85/gallon.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

Woodco said:


> Flood exterior waterborne stain has emulsabond in it already. I know the warranty doesnt mean much, but it says 10 years on decks, and 25 years on siding. I've never seen a better warranty.https://www.flood.com/products/wood-stain/solid-stain/pro-solid-color


I'm not so sure. They used to promote Emulsa Bond on the label of the Flood solid hide stain but not anymore. I have a gallon of EB and add it myself.

Currently, they promote that it is "Urethane-fortified". I hate when companies f with a good formula. I'm guessing that urethane is cheaper than EB.


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## Rbriggs82 (Jul 9, 2012)

Woodco said:


> Flood exterior waterborne stain has emulsabond in it already. I know the warranty doesnt mean much, but it says 10 years on decks, and 25 years on siding. I've never seen a better warranty.https://www.flood.com/products/wood-stain/solid-stain/pro-solid-color


That's crazy! I thought the whole point of EB was to use it on chalky surfaces. When we operated in PA a large part of our exterior business were aluminum sided houses. If you've never dealt with aluminum I can tell you that it doesn't matter how many times or how well you wash it would be chalky.

We've had paint jobs last 20 years with EB mixed in BM MoorGard and only needed to be redone because of fading. 

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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

You guys are right. I cant find it on the labeling anywhere, but I could have swore some flood stains had a little EB premixed.

Also, I wouldnt have chimed in with my flood comment, but somehow, I missed the first page of this thread until now...

As far as someone suggesting IPE or exotic hardwoods, that has to be maintained yearly. Of course, it wont rot, if not, but it will look like crap. Probably as expensive, if not more than TREX, and I heard IPE is straight rainforest cut down, if you care about that sort of thing.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Woodco said:


> You guys are right. I cant find it on the labeling anywhere, but I could have swore some flood stains had a little EB premixed.


That was something PPG did when they acquired the company. They started using their own version of EB and quit using the EB name on their packaging. Don't really know why. Probably so they can sell the EB separately to people who want to use it. (Just an fyi, EB has been on the market for so long, it's formulation isn't any secret to most paint manufacturers. The only thing that makes it unique is the trademark.)


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## pjohnson1970 (Jul 5, 2018)

I'd check out promain they have paints for all needs


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## rosespainting (Mar 16, 2014)

I have had great results with BM solid acrylic arborcoat on decks. I also have great results with BM transparent / translucent oil stains on decking, as well as sikkins (now PPG) prolux. 

I have had a lot of issues with BM acrylic transparent stains on decks, and some issues with semi solid oils. even with great prep.

If some one asks me for a low maintenance solution for their deck; my recommendation is to rebuild the deck with mahogany (ipe works great too), and leave it alone. No stain, no sealers, just clean it every other year. My deck and front stoop are mahogany, and were left alone.


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## lawsan (Dec 13, 2014)

Man I thought this was a thread I could get behind. I make good money repairing and top coating decks, Pool Decks. 

But honestly I am going to build a wood deck at my house. Thinking ipe anything I should know beforehand other then saw blades?


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## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

lawsan said:


> Man I thought this was a thread I could get behind. I make good money repairing and top coating decks, Pool Decks.
> 
> But honestly I am going to build a wood deck at my house. Thinking ipe anything I should know beforehand other then saw blades?


Pilot holes are awesome. And I like Penofin.

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## ridesarize (Jun 19, 2012)

lawsan said:


> Man I thought this was a thread I could get behind. I make good money repairing and top coating decks, Pool Decks.
> 
> But honestly I am going to build a wood deck at my house. Thinking ipe anything I should know beforehand other then saw blades?


Double joists, hidden fastener system... proper air flow, drainage,... just a couple. as far as I know, you need to be pretty damn good at quality construction to build an ipe deck.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Best product on a pressure treated wood deck? Proper surface prep. Which unfortunately 95% of the time isn't done correctly.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Last year I built a new deck at my house using Ipe for the decking, cedar for the hand rails and newell posts and a powder coated chicken wire for the balusters. I’m not a deck building expert, but I can try to answer any questions you might have.

ContractorTalk, which is a sister website to PaintTalk has a sub category for deck building. You should check it out because there is a ton of good info there.

Simpson Strongtie also has an excellent online guide for building decks using their fasteners.
https://www.strongtie.com/resources/literature/deck-connection-fastening-guide

If you end up using Ipe I highly recommend sealing the end cuts of all you decking with a product such as AnchorSeal 2. 





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