# Commercial Work - Notes



## KLaw

Do y'all know of any institution that will buy notes for commercial work? We get about 3 - 5 RFQ's per week and 2 - 3 of them I'd love to bid on every week. We got the experience, equipment, and manpower to perform this work. But, the cash flow is tight. At one point, I thought we had a connection that would buy the note for 10% but that fell through. Anybody know of an institution that specializing in this? Thanks and I appreciate any feedback.


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## vermontpainter

Fresh

Why not set up a large corporate loc at your financial institution? Thats what most companies do who handle large contracts that can be challenging to cash flow. Have you considered this? Effectively the bank can buy your "note" (there really is no such thing in contracting) without even knowing it.


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## CApainter

vermontpainter said:


> Fresh
> 
> Why not set up a large corporate loc at your financial institution? Thats what most companies do who handle large contracts that can be challenging to cash flow. Have you considered this? Effectively the bank can buy your "note" (there really is no such thing in contracting) without even knowing it.


This is the kind of quick, sound, and free advice PT should have long after plain and wise return.


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## vermontpainter

CApainter said:


> This is the kind of quick, sound, and free advice PT should have long after plain and wise return.


Actually I was just reconsidering how sound it really is. I am not sure that is the solution that would work for Fresh Coat.


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> Do y'all know of any institution that will buy notes for commercial work? We get about 3 - 5 RFQ's per week and 2 - 3 of them I'd love to bid on every week. We got the experience, equipment, and manpower to perform this work. But, the cash flow is tight. At one point, I thought we had a connection that would buy the note for 10% but that fell through. Anybody know of an institution that specializing in this? Thanks and I appreciate any feedback.


 
Are you serious? :blink:


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## CApainter

vermontpainter said:


> Actually I was just reconsidering how sound it really is. I am not sure that is the solution that would work for Fresh Coat.


It's the thought that counts.


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## aaron61

I've been hearing an add on the radio here about a company that does that. I'll try to catch it next time


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## vermontpainter

CApainter said:


> It's the thought that counts.


Well, just to clarify. I think the gentleman is looking for a third party institution to finance his ability to do a job. Basically to extend him credit to cover his expenses on a project that is beyond his ability to fund. Banks are institutions that do this sort of thing, and so I would check with the one that handles my business accounts. However, lenders are not giving away commercial loc's these days. The requirements usually include a certain number of years in business, a certain number of years of corporate tax returns and financials that read favorably, often a personal guarantee and/or collateral to secure it. They also take into consideration the owners salary history (which is reflected clearly in the financials) and whether there are any other entities with a stake in the success of the business. It is not an easy road to go down for a newer business. I believe this gentleman has been around for approximately 2 years.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Fresh
> 
> Why not set up a large corporate loc at your financial institution? Thats what most companies do who handle large contracts that can be challenging to cash flow. Have you considered this? Effectively the bank can buy your "note" (there really is no such thing in contracting) without even knowing it.


No, I have not considered it because I don't know what you are talking about. What do you mean by a large corp loc? Appreciate your input.


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## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Are you serious? :blink:


Absolutely - I am serious. Why the question? Thanks.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> No, I have not considered it because I don't know what you are talking about. What do you mean by a large corp loc? Appreciate your input.


What I meant was a sizable corporate line of credit. It would have to be sizable to fund large commercial projects. The challenge is, as with any credit situation today, you basically have to demonstrate that you have the ability to cover the loc in full before it is extended to you, as outlined in my previous post.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Well, just to clarify. I think the gentleman is looking for a third party institution to finance his ability to do a job. Basically to extend him credit to cover his expenses on a project that is beyond his ability to fund. Banks are institutions that do this sort of thing, and so I would check with the one that handles my business accounts. However, lenders are not giving away commercial loc's these days. The requirements usually include a certain number of years in business, a certain number of years of corporate tax returns and financials that read favorably, often a personal guarantee and/or collateral to secure it. They also take into consideration the owners salary history (which is reflected clearly in the financials) and whether there are any other entities with a stake in the success of the business. It is not an easy road to go down for a newer business. I believe this gentleman has been around for approximately 2 years.


Exactly right. It is not an easy road to go down. You interpreted my OP correctly and the challenges of accomplishing this.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> What I meant was a sizable corporate line of credit. It would have to be sizable to fund large commercial projects. The challenge is, as with any credit situation today, you basically have to demonstrate that you have the ability to cover the loc in full before it is extended to you, as outlined in my previous post.


And that is my challenge. But, if I can just land one of these bad boys and prove to the lender that we are capable of payback, then the next one just gets easier.


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## vermontpainter

I speak from the experiences of my own relationship with my bank and also having a wife who is a loan processor. Its not unlike a heloc, only instead it draws against the on paper value of your business. Which calls into play the significance of having a business with a favorable p&l and balance sheets. Building equity in your business is huge. As well as all of the other factors I listed above. However, by taking on the line of credit, you can immediately show a deleterious impact on your financials. I would absolutely consult my accountant before talking to my bank about it. He will likely tell you that the stage of your business' development may make it a tenuous undertaking.


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## CApainter

vermontpainter said:


> Well, just to clarify. I think the gentleman is looking for a third party institution to finance his ability to do a job. Basically to extend him credit to cover his expenses on a project that is beyond his ability to fund. Banks are institutions that do this sort of thing, and so I would check with the one that handles my business accounts. However, lenders are not giving away commercial loc's these days. The requirements usually include a certain number of years in business, a certain number of years of corporate tax returns and financials that read favorably, often a personal guarantee and/or collateral to secure it. They also take into consideration the owners salary history (which is reflected clearly in the financials) and whether there are any other entities with a stake in the success of the business. It is not an easy road to go down for a newer business. I believe this gentleman has been around for approximately 2 years.


That makes sense if the new company wasn't as successful as freshcoat has indicated he has been. I think he has a really good chance at an LOC, as you wisely suggested. He could use his own advice about strutting up with confidence, when talking to the banker.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> And that is my challenge. But, if I can just land one of these bad boys and prove to the lender that we are capable of payback, then the next one just gets easier.


That lender will not be a bank. These decisions are made entirely based on the your business' strength on paper for several years, not one job. If you find some Louie the Loan Shark, that approach might work perfectly. Just dont miss the payback.


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## vermontpainter

CApainter said:


> That makes sense if the new company wasn't as successful as freshcoat has indicated he has been. I think he has a really good chance at an LOC, as you wisely suggested. He could use his own advice about strutting up with confidence, when talking to the banker.


Strut is not taken into consideration in the credit assessment process. :no:


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> And that is my challenge. But, if I can just land one of these bad boys and prove to the lender that we are capable of payback, then the next one just gets easier.


I take it "you strut" wasn't enough for your bank?

How much are the jobs in question worth?


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## vermontpainter

Also, loc's have to be renewed every year. You submit this years corporate tax return to secure it again for next year. If you had a worse year, they lower the amount available. If you had a better year, they might offer you more. There are also strict conditions such as the loan has to be at absolute 0 for a certain number of days per year. Thats the beauty of the game. Its like a credit card. Its cool to have one, but not have to use it. Then doors start to open. 

So if anyone out there is getting the idea of funding their payroll by racking up a fat loc, it would be the biggest flimsiest house of cards you ever watched collapse.


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## KLaw

It is a huge risk for a bank. Because, we've been around for ~2 yrs. I've got the p/w for the P&L's and all the other supporting documents but bottom line is these cats are being very tight (as they should). 

The frustrating part is (as I stated earlier): my crews got the experience, equipment, etc... But, due to my lack of cash flow - I am stunting my growth. I know I can do a job account w/ our supplier to extend matls payments for 90 days but I am talking about covering over 1200 labor hours. That's $20k plus. Can't do it. Not even on 30 day draws.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> It is a huge risk for a bank. Because, we've been around for ~2 yrs. I've got the p/w for the P&L's and all the other supporting documents but bottom line is these cats are being very tight (as they should).
> 
> The frustrating part is (as I stated earlier): my crews got the experience, equipment, etc... But, due to my lack of cash flow - I am stunting my growth. I know I can do a job account w/ our supplier to extend matls payments for 90 days but I am talking about covering over 1200 labor hours. That's $20k plus. Can't do it. Not even on 30 day draws.


1200 labor hours for $20k? What language?


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## KLaw

CApainter said:


> That makes sense if the new company wasn't as successful as freshcoat has indicated he has been. I think he has a really good chance at an LOC, as you wisely suggested. He could use his own advice about strutting up with confidence, when talking to the banker.


How have I indicated that we have been successful? We are a barely 2 yr old company. We are struggling but that comes with growing pains. When I was talkin about struttin and feeling confident that was because we had a good week. Tends to make one feel good and confident.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> 1200 labor hours for $20k? What language?


1280*17.50 (painters hrly wage) = $22,400. Did I do my math wrong?


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## NEPS.US

Why anyone would want to do a (most of the time) low bid commercial job and pay points on it is beyond me. It would be like working for free. I think the water is starting to circle the drain.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> 1280*17.50 (painters hrly wage) = $22,400. Did I do my math wrong?


I would be multiplying it by my labor rate, but thats just me.


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> 1280*17.50 (painters hrly wage) = $22,400. Did I do my math wrong?


 
Yes ....and that is part of the problem and why you are looking for a loan.


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## CApainter

fresh coat said:


> How have I indicated that we have been successful? We are a barely 2 yr old company. We are struggling but that comes with growing pains. When I was talkin about struttin and feeling confident that was because we had a good week. Tends to make one feel good and confident.


I thought the "strutting with confidence" advice you had was good. 

Maybe I'm not reading your posts correctly.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> I have never had a business loan, financed anything .


I would like to be this way, personally thats how I am. Professionally, my bookkeeper, who writes the checks, has this thing about using other (institutions) money for free instead of tying up mine.


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## NEPS.US

vermontpainter said:


> I would like to be this way, personally thats how I am. Professionally, my bookkeeper, who writes the checks, has this thing about using other (institutions) money for free instead of tying up mine.


 
And that is great and had probably allowed you for more growth. But you are not financing your next job with it.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> I would be multiplying it by my labor rate, but thats just me.


Absolutely agree with you. But, Like I said I got the matl's covered for 90 days. So, if I can get labor covered then I think we've got cash flow to cover the rest.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> And that is great and had probably allowed you for more growth. But you are not financing your next job with it.


Oh god no. The fact that we dont tie up money means there is cash flow most of the time. There are always hiccups, but I would not finance a job with money that I did not own and pay interest to do the job. I hate interest.


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## KLaw

CApainter said:


> I thought the "strutting with confidence" advice you had was good.
> 
> Maybe I'm not reading your posts correctly.


I probably read your post wrong. I thought you were doggin me. Sorry 'bout that.


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## NEPS.US

Of course some jobs need financing. But the person in question admittedly lost his ass on a small retail store not long ago and does not have a large work force. We are not talking a multi million dollar project here.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Absolutely agree with you. But, Like I said I got the matl's covered for 90 days. So, if I can get labor covered then I think we've got cash flow to cover the rest.


You are not seeing the situation clearly. You are hung up on landing one of those "badboys" and not thinking straight.


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> Absolutely agree with you. But, Like I said I got the matl's covered for 90 days. So, if I can get labor covered then I think we've got cash flow to cover the rest.


 
"think"?


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Absolutely agree with you. But, Like I said I got the *matl's* covered for 90 days. So, if I can get *labor* covered then I think we've got cash flow to cover the rest.


You are walking right square into the trap that is the death of many a fine upstart. You cant chew your leg off to get out of this trap once you are in.


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## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Let me rephrase this a little.
> 
> Of course some jobs need financing. But the person in question admittedly lost his ass on a small retail store not long ago and does not have a large work force. We are not talking a multi million dollar project here.


It's all relative. It seems like a multi million project for us. But, my "losing my ass" on the light commercial job was one hell of a learning experience. Although, I am sure you never lost money on a job...:whistling2:


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Do y'all know of any institution that will buy notes for commercial work? We get about 3 - 5 RFQ's per week and 2 - 3 of them I'd love to bid on every week. We got the experience, equipment, and manpower to perform this work. But, the cash flow is tight. At one point, I thought we had a connection that would buy the note for 10% but that fell through. Anybody know of an institution that specializing in this? Thanks and I appreciate any feedback.


Experience
Equipment
Manpower
Financing for Labor
90 days with supplier of materials

Now that we have hashed it through a bit, do you think this would be a recipe for success? Would you stake your business on it?


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## KLaw

Y'all are probably right and I truly apprciate your input. I am not hell bent on making this happen but please explain how I am jumping off the cliff - so to speak. Thanks.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Y'all are probably right and I truly apprciate your input. I am not hell bent on making this happen but please explain how I am jumping off the cliff - so to speak. Thanks.


Start at post 1 and read to here. Not to be smartass but you are very impulsive and expect quick and easy results. 

Be honest, what is the largest project you have done to date? Now multiply by 2-3 and see how it fits your comfort zone. Things change exponentially when you go up a few brackets in size of project (talking $ not sf here);


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## NEPS.US

Which franchise are you in Ohio?


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Experience
> Equipment
> Manpower
> Financing for Labor
> 90 days with supplier of materials
> 
> *Now that we have hashed it through a bit, do you think this would be a recipe for success? Would you stake your business on it?[/*quote]
> 
> That is essentially what I would be doing. So, no I don't know if we are going to entertain this risk. But, don't you think there is a possibility that it could be successful?
> 
> Neps: Where did you get that we had a lil manforce?


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Experience
> Equipment
> Manpower
> Financing for Labor
> 90 days with supplier of materials
> 
> *Now that we have hashed it through a bit, do you think this would be a recipe for success? Would you stake your business on it?[/*quote]
> 
> That is essentially what I would be doing. So, no I don't know if we are going to entertain this risk. But, don't you think there is a possibility that it could be successful?
> 
> Neps: Where did you get that we had a lil manforce?
> 
> 
> 
> Fresh
> 
> Sure, there is a possibility. But business is based entirely on risk v reward. The reward here doesnt even come close to justifying the risk, in my opinion. Yours may be different though.
Click to expand...


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neps: Where did you get that we had a lil manforce?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From you.
Click to expand...


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Start at post 1 and read to here. Not to be smartass but you are very impulsive and expect quick and easy results.
> 
> Be honest, what is the largest project you have done to date? Now multiply by 2-3 and *see how it fits your comfort zone*. Things change exponentially when you go up a few brackets in size of project (talking $ not sf here);


 
That's kinda my point. Step up and get out of the comfy zone. Like I said, it would be do or die or close to it. If successful, then game set match, we are on our way. But, to your point, if failure then sh!t no more painttalk and get in line for some of that gov't cheese.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fresh
> 
> Sure, there is a possibility. But business is based entirely on risk v reward. The reward here doesnt even come close to justifying the risk, in my opinion. Yours may be different though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you not ever tried something that risky or even less? I gotta think you have. Care to share your experience? Thanks.
Click to expand...


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> That's kinda my point. Step up and get out of the comfy zone. Like I said, it would be do or die or close to it. If successful, then game set match, we are on our way. But, to your point, if failure then sh!t no more painttalk and get in line for some of that gov't cheese.


Fresh if you are feeling comfy with where your business at and wanting to ramp up the risk factor...you may be suffering a psychotic break of some sort. I have read enough of your material to know that for much of your >2 yrs in business you have not been able to take a salary, your franchise has a lien on your profit, small scale jobs that have nibbled on your hiney...I dont really care what you do, but...in all honesty, what are you thinking?


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## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> 
> From you.
> 
> 
> 
> Either you mis-understood or I mis-represented. See OP - I've got the manpower - bro.
Click to expand...


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## CApainter

fresh coat said:


> That's kinda my point. Step up and get out of the comfy zone. Like I said, it would be do or die or close to it. If successful, then game set match, we are on our way. But, to your point, if failure then sh!t no more painttalk and get in line for some of that gov't cheese.


That gov't cheese isn't all that bad. Kinda tastes like Velveeta.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you not ever tried something that risky or even less? I gotta think you have. Care to share your experience? Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Every project for me is a risk. Every risk is carefully calculated. I made every mistake in my first few years in business, which is where you are now. You are getting ahead of yourself, thats all.
Click to expand...


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## Workaholic

Fresh,
Scott has given you some pretty sound posts on this subject. 
I have never financed a job but I am a small time contractor that has only done a few commercial gigs, but I would never want to risk my whole business on one job in a do or die situation. To many variables that could aid in breaking you. 
Sometimes you can make the same money doing multiple smaller jobs rather than one big one.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> NEPS.US said:
> 
> 
> 
> Either you mis-understood or I mis-represented. See OP - I've got the manpower - bro.
> 
> 
> 
> If you strut, I am so f-in out of here.
Click to expand...


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## Dave Mac

I must say Neps and Scott are giving some great advise imo, Fresh it seems your thinking with your emotion, and not your buisness hat.


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## vermontpainter

CApainter said:


> That gov't cheese isn't all that bad. Kinda tastes like Velveeta.


The cat got slang, I'll give it up to a homey for that.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> Which franchise are you in Ohio?


Fresh, do you intend to answer this question?


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> Either you mis-understood or I mis-represented. See OP - I've got the manpower - bro.


 
I'm not challenging you I am curious as it pertains to the OP.

How many men and crews are you running?


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## Dave Mac

History is a good teacher, and why do most buisness go out of buisness, lack of cash. A wise man learns from other people mistakes.


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## vermontpainter

Dave Mac said:


> I must say Neps and Scott are giving some great advise imo, Fresh it seems your thinking with your emotion, and not your buisness hat.





Dave Mac said:


> History is a good teacher, and why do most buisness go out of buisness, lack of cash. A wise man learns from other people mistakes.


Dave 

I think part of what goes on here at pt is that many of us who have been in business for a bunch of years and been on the forums for a few just get queesy when someone struts up about to naively walk right into a trap that you have been in or close to before. Its like, whether you like that cat or not, you have to try to help. Its a curse.


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## KLaw

Workaholic said:


> Fresh,
> Scott has given you some pretty sound posts on this subject.
> I have never financed a job but I am a small time contractor that has only done a few commercial gigs, but I would never want to risk my whole business on one job in a do or die situation. To many variables that could aid in breaking you.
> Sometimes you can make the same money doing multiple smaller jobs rather than one big one.


Thanks, Work. And I, for the most part, agree. But, there is that lil itch that I want to scratch. And I am just grinding my teeth over this.


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## vermontpainter

And by the way, (to the audience), this is a cat who wouldnt share a spreadsheet in a thread the other night. Just sayin...:whistling2:


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Fresh if you are feeling comfy with where your business at and wanting to ramp up the risk factor...you may be suffering a psychotic break of some sort. I have read enough of your material to know that for much of your >2 yrs in business *you have not been able to take a salary*, your franchise has a lien on your profit, small scale jobs that have nibbled on your hiney...I dont really care what you do, but...in all honesty, *what are you thinking*?


Not taking a salary? That was at the infant stages. Do not apply that to today's scenario. According to y'all, I am NOT thinking. But I am and that is why I posted this thread.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Tthere is that lil itch that I want to scratch. And I am just grinding my teeth over this.


Fresh, get some aloe lotion and sit tight. Take a salary for a couple of years, pay back the franchise obligation and build a business. In 2 years you wont even have the same cats working for you. I dont want to see you roll too big a set of dice. We need you here. Believe it or not. You end up back at the factory and you will probably not be coming here.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> fresh coat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every project for me is a risk. Every risk is carefully calculated. I made every mistake in my first few years in business, which is where you are now. You are getting ahead of yourself, thats all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. But, do you care to share you biggest mistake? Could be a good read. Thanks.
Click to expand...


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Not taking a salary? That was at the infant stages. Do not apply that to today's scenario. According to y'all, I am NOT thinking. But I am and that is why I posted this thread.


Fresh, you are a parent. You know that a 2 year old not far removed from infancy.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Not taking a salary? That was at the infant stages. Do not apply that to today's scenario. According to y'all, I am NOT thinking. But I am and that is why I posted this thread.


I didnt say that you were not thinking. You are thinking about the wrong thing here.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> vermontpainter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. But, do you care to share you biggest mistake? Could be a good read. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you read the book the Giving Tree?
Click to expand...


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## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> I'm not challenging you I am curious as it pertains to the OP.
> 
> How many men and crews are you running?


2 crews running now. But, we've got and several reserves.


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> 2 crews running now. But, we've got and several reserves.


Which OH franchise are you?


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> 2 crews running now. But, we've got and several reserves.


 
Crews of how many? Employees or subs?


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Fresh, do you intend to answer this question?


Nope. Tell me how it is relevant to the OP?


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Nope. Tell me how it is relevant to the OP?


You will take all of this good information. In return, you will not share a spreadsheet (last night) or let anyone see your website. I would like to see the work that is causing you to strut, making you feel like you can "back it up", and getting you itchy to get out of the "comfy zone" and go after some "govt cheese." You are a interesting cat!


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## Dave Mac

I just wonder what Plain would suggest. j/k ha ha


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## NEPS.US

We should just email all the OH franshises and give them links to the voice of their companies posting's. I dont thing they would be too flattered.


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## vermontpainter

Dave Mac said:


> I just wonder what Plain would suggest. j/k ha ha


If Plain was here this thing would have been locked down and we all would have been sent to our rooms!


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## Workaholic

fresh coat said:


> Thanks, Work. And I, for the most part, agree. But, there is that lil itch that I want to scratch. And I am just grinding my teeth over this.


Just trying to help talk you off the ledge. Nothing wrong with playing it safe. 

You could take up an adrenaline junky hobby to satisfy that scratch you are getting. 
I like gambling but just would'nt want to bet the house and business on it.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> And by the way, (to the audience), this is a cat who wouldnt share a spreadsheet in a thread the other night. Just sayin...:whistling2:


That is a wrong statement. I did share it. Just not with the population.


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## Workaholic

vermontpainter said:


> If Plain was here this thing would have been locked down and we all would have been sent to our rooms!


Ha ha.


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## NEPS.US

Kevin,
How come no pics of the Foot Locker?


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## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> That is a wrong statement. I did share it. Just not with the population.


You shared it with bb in a pm. Attaboy! :thumbsup:


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## CApainter

vermontpainter said:


> You will take all of this good information. In return, you will not share a spreadsheet (last night) or let anyone see your website. I would like to see the work that is causing you to strut, making you feel like you can "back it up", and getting you itchy to get out of the "comfy zone" and go after some "govt cheese." You are a interesting cat!


I don't think gov't cheese is part of the business model.


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## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> Kevin,
> How come no pics of the Foot Locker?


You rascally rabbit!


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## NEPS.US

I think the quote from DJ in Mason sound's fake. Who talks like that?


----------



## NEPS.US

hmmmm


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Crews of how many? Employees or subs?


Both


----------



## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Which OH franchise are you?


Why?


----------



## vermontpainter

The point is Fresh, this one is a little different from some of your other schemes. The beauty salon fliers, the 6 months to 'hood domination, heck even the one you had a long time ago where you were going to specialize in finishing off garage interiors, those were all harmless and you might make a buck. Paying interest to get low margin, low volume commercial financed so you can "scratch a itch" that you dont even understand is foolish. Like I said, I want to see you here, not back at the factory.


----------



## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Why?


Its ok, we got it.


----------



## NEPS.US

Our job here is done.


----------



## Dave Mac

I would think this would be a clear case of spreading yourself to thin, wich is never good imo


----------



## KLaw

I don't understand this. I was just asking and seeking some input. Not struttin' or braggin'. BTW, I thought I posted pics on the ftlckr job. Do a search. If I am wrong, I'll post right now.


----------



## vermontpainter

Hello Darkness


----------



## NEPS.US

It's ok Kev ...we get it.


----------



## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> I don't understand this. I was just asking and seeking some input. Not struttin' or braggin'. BTW, I thought I posted pics on the ftlckr job. Do a search. If I am wrong, I'll post right now.


You know that thing you do...where you do a highly charged thread like this all puffy chesty and then you come back in the next day and edit all of your posts out? Well, before you do that, go back and read this one and think about it. We are just trying to help.


----------



## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> It's ok Kev ...we get it.


Hey those two cats in the video kind of look like you and me, retro style.


----------



## Workaholic

I agree with Dave that it just is not wise to spread yourself to thin. 
I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread mature.


----------



## vermontpainter

KL

No worries. We wouldnt have spent the last 2 1/2 hour creating a 100 post thread with you if we didnt care about your impact on this forum.


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> I agree with Dave that it just is not wise to spread yourself to thin.
> I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread mature.


Indeed. I respect fresh for being willing to hear perspectives that he may not have wanted to hear and from people that he more than likely wouldnt want to hear it from. Good thread, in the end.


----------



## Dave Mac

fresh coat said:


> I don't understand this. I was just asking and seeking some input. .


 
Dont understand what, you asked and got some sound advice. whats their not to understand:blink:


----------



## RCP

I have thought about doing more commercial as well, not sure how to balance that with the residential? Would you hire more for just the commercial? If you put the manpower on a commercial job for months how do you service the resi jobs? Fresh, would you sub it out and keep your employees on the resi jobs?
Is that why you have subs and employees?


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Kevin,
> How come no pics of the Foot Locker?


I got pics - just dont know how to dowload them. Neps - what is your website? Hmmm...


----------



## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> I got pics - just dont know how to dowload them. Neps - what is your website? Hmmm...


Just remember little fella - I can back up my words.


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Just remember little fella - I can back up my words.


Back it up - Jackson. Sorry, I didn't catch your website? I'll send my pics to RCP if she'll post them.


----------



## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> You know that thing you do...where you do a highly charged thread like this all puffy chesty and then you come back in the next day and edit all of your posts out? Well, before you do that, go back and read this one and think about it. We are just trying to help.


I agree and I truly appreciate it. Not sure how this got off the OP:whistling2:


----------



## RCP

fresh coat said:


> Back it up - Jackson. Sorry, I didn't catch your website? I'll send my pics to RCP if she'll post them.


 rcpaintinginc.com


----------



## vermontpainter

Kev

This is the puffy chesty part I referred to earlier. We helped you, or at least tried hard to with good info in this thread. Dont pull the pin out of the grenade on your belt. It doesnt have to end badly. It was a good thread. IBTL.


----------



## NEPS.US

Why are you hiding behind the anonymity of the FC main site?


----------



## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> Why are you hiding behind the anonymity of the FC main site?


Dude, dont you read in the biz zone? He has two. Plus corporate.


----------



## KLaw

RCP said:


> rcpaintinginc.com


RCP: Just sent the footlocker pics your way. Please figure a way to post. Thanks.

Neps: Sorry - what was that website of yours? Back it up - xxxx. You said you could:whistling2:


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Why are you hiding behind the anonymity of the FC main site?


Not hiding - just tryin to refine my personal site. Give me 2 weeks then I will promote it.


----------



## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> RCP: Just sent the footlocker pics your way. Please figure a way to post. Thanks.
> 
> Neps: Sorry - what was that website of yours? Back it up - baby girl. You said you could:whistling2:


 
I dont have one. 

No need for it. Just like a loan to cover payroll.


----------



## NEPS.US

Kevin - Did you get permission from corporate to use their site as your main on a public forum or even as your screen name? I would think there would some serious issues with you representing the whole company. I would be very upset if I was another franchisee.


----------



## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> I dont have one.
> 
> No need for it. Just like a loan to cover payroll.


Wow you got stiffed. I thought the neps franchise package included a website template. 

_Hi my name is neps. After many years of living in the Holyoke community I saw a need for offices and homes to be painted to a high quality standard at a fair price._


----------



## Workaholic

Is this where it goes to hell fellas?


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> Is this where it goes to hell fellas?


It would appear that Kevins way of thanking for good advice is to circle around and nip at neps heels.


----------



## NEPS.US

100 posts is all we can promise Sean


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Kevin - Did you get permission from corporate to use their site as your main on a public forum or even as your screen name? *I would think there* would some serious issues with you representing the whole company. I would be very upset if I was another franchisee.


Quit thinkin'. What was the franchise you used to work for? Hmmmmm.....


----------



## vermontpainter

Hate to say it, but...IBTL


----------



## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> Quit thinkin'. What was the franchise you used to work for? Hmmmmm.....


Your right I will. Instead I will just as them.


----------



## KLaw

Workaholic said:


> Is this where it goes to hell fellas?


It doesn't have to be, but ... the games we play.

RCP: Did you get my email?


----------



## vermontpainter

vermontpainter said:


> Indeed. I respect fresh for being willing to hear perspectives that he may not have wanted to hear and from people that he more than likely wouldnt want to hear it from. Good thread, in the end.


Lets roll back the tape to here, shut her down and move forward. No stinkin up the joint please. Plus, that way, I get the last word. :thumbup:


----------



## NEPS.US

Let's just say Terry and I have worked together before.


----------



## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> Dude, dont you read in the biz zone? He has two. Plus corporate.


You are violating the rule: "keep it in the zone".


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> Let's just say Terry and I have worked together before.


What's up with that? You openly admitted you were a "big shot" at a franchise - why not share your experience and details?:whistling2:


----------



## NEPS.US

NEPS.US said:


> Let's just say Terry and I have worked together before.


 
I havent talked to him in years. I think I still have his personal email. I might have to drop him a line with a few attachments.


----------



## vermontpainter

Terry will thank you for attempting to ensure his 7%


----------



## KLaw

Neps: Care to respond :whistling2:What's up with that? You openly admitted you were a "big shot" at a franchise - why not share your experience and details?:whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter

fresh coat said:


> Neps: Care to respond :whistling2:What's up with that? You openly admitted you were a "big shot" at a franchise - why not share your experience and details?:whistling2:


Scrappy, hows that spreadsheet looking? You are too much.


----------



## NEPS.US

I wonder if Terry is still a 4 handicap?


----------



## RCP

fresh coat said:


> It doesn't have to be, but ... the games we play.
> 
> RCP: Did you get my email?


Here you go


----------



## Workaholic

Maybe if we focus on another thread for a bit the snipping can stop and we can get back to the OP even though I am not sure there is a whole lot to add to it at this point. 
Of course if the thread does not go to hell and is able to remain open maybe the AM crew will have something more to add.


----------



## KLaw

Way to dance around the question I proposed to your boy. How about letting him answer for himself. I am not tryin to be rude because y'all gave us some good insight (way eralier in this thread). But Nepsie called me out and I backed it up (RCP - help me out here). xxxxxxx


----------



## vermontpainter

Holy crap. Thats like a 2000 sf foot locker. Nice.


----------



## RCP

Yes, we got sidetracked, I'd like to know how to staff this type of work? (question from post 99.)


----------



## vermontpainter

Please for the love of God, Kev, just answer the question.


----------



## Workaholic

RCP said:


> Here you go


Are those not posted in PT somewhere already? I think I have seen them before.


----------



## vermontpainter

Kevin, besides painting offices, that is about the smallest commercial job you can do. If that one hung you up...well, you know.


----------



## michfan

Honestly, I just read through this whole thread and was impressed by all the composure (for the most part)...Fresh, you started this whole thread asking for advice and ppl gave you their 2 cents, and some damn good 2 cents at that. Take it or leave it. From an objective standpoint of view (I do not know VP or Neps personally) I would at least consider the advice and quit trying to turn the tables on them. They are sincere dudes who have been around the crazy painting block a time or two and are only trying to help!

And...once again, not meant to be a personal attack. Just an objective perspective!:thumbsup:


----------



## Workaholic

Fresh 
how far out is this big project you are thinking of? Anyway to generate more capital?


----------



## Bender

fresh coat said:


> Do y'all know of any institution that will buy notes for commercial work? We get about 3 - 5 RFQ's per week and 2 - 3 of them I'd love to bid on every week. We got the experience, equipment, and manpower to perform this work. But, the cash flow is tight. At one point, I thought we had a connection that would buy the note for 10% but that fell through. Anybody know of an institution that specializing in this? Thanks and I appreciate any feedback.


How much you need buddy?


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> Fresh
> how far out is this big project you are thinking of? Anyway to generate more capital?


We gotta whoa this cat up a little. He was talking about some taj mahal foot locker. Its tiny. His perspective is skewed because he had only done resi repaint before that. Now he is ready for WalMarts. Yikers. There is a loose cannon rolling around on the deck and the waters are choppy.


----------



## KLaw

RCP said:


> Yes, we got sidetracked, I'd like to know how to staff this type of work? (question from post 99.)


RCP: It's no different then other jobs. I am betting that it is more difficult to staff y'all's new construction then it is a light commercial job. Basically, the GC tells you how much time (in this case it was 5 working days) you have to complete the project.


----------



## NEPS.US

I'm not sure what you backed up Kevin. You lost your ass on a small retail job and now you think you are ready for high dollar commercial projects while you cant support the payroll. You should focus your efforts to residential painting in which your franchise has spent all kinds of marketing dollars in. Why bother buying a franchise that specializes in residential consumers if you are going after commercial work that you cant afford to operate? Stick with what you know. I'm still not sure what that is but I do know you should stick with what you can afford. 

You got some solid advice in this thread but you heard nothing that you wanted. You wanted to hear a miracle solution to your finacial needs and that silver bullet does not exist. Good luck FC. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.


----------



## vermontpainter

Did you learn something there Chris?


----------



## michfan

vermontpainter said:


> We gotta whoa this cat up a little. He was talking about some taj mahal foot locker. Its tiny. His perspective is skewed because he had only done resi repaint before that. Now he is ready for WalMarts. Yikers. There is a loose cannon rolling around on the deck and the waters are choppy.


Everyone has dreams of having a big, successful biz. You gotta channel that passion and take it one baby step at a time. A lot of contractors would be happy to be in the position he is in right now.


----------



## vermontpainter

michfan said:


> Everyone has dreams of having a big, successful biz. You gotta channel that passion and take it one baby step at a time. A lot of contractors would be happy to be in the position he is in right now.


I agree. It is a critical point in the development of a business. The two year mark. This is where alot of cats shoot themselves right in the foot. Kevin doesnt seem like that type though.


----------



## RCP

fresh coat said:


> Way to dance around the question I proposed to your boy. How about letting him answer for himself. I am not tryin to be rude because y'all gave us some good insight (way eralier in this thread). But Nepsie called me out and I backed it up (RCP - help me out here). xxxxxxx


Fresh, no one is "calling you out". I have asked you some of the same questions, so please don't get too defensive. Let's keep this on a mature level.
If you don't want to answer, just say so.


----------



## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> I'm not sure what you backed up Kevin. You lost your ass on a small retail job and now you think you are ready for high dollar commercial projects while you cant support the payroll. You should focus your efforts to residential painting in which your franchise has spent all kinds of marketing dollars in. Why bother buying a franchise that specializes in residential consumers if you are going after commercial work that you cant afford to operate? Stick with what you know. I'm still not sure what that is but I do know you should stick with what you can afford.
> 
> You got some solid advice in this thread but you heard nothing that you wanted. You wanted to hear a miracle solution to your finacial needs and that silver bullet does not exist. Good luck FC. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.


And it was some damn good advice. I appreciate all of it. I don't understand the negativity. I am here to bump my gums and get fired up about growing my biz. Y'all seem to get offended pretty easily.


----------



## RCP

fresh coat said:


> RCP: It's no different then other jobs. I am betting that it is more difficult to staff y'all's new construction then it is a light commercial job. Basically, the GC tells you how much time (in this case it was 5 working days) you have to complete the project.


Sorry, I misunderstood the OP, I thought you were looking at a large commercial job that you would need to keep men on for a period of time.
I know when we did the Walmart, it was difficult to serve both sides.


----------



## vermontpainter

Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot.


----------



## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood the OP, I thought you were looking at a large commercial job that you would need to keep men on for a period of time.
> I know when we did the Walmart, it was difficult to serve both sides.


 I think you can fit about 24 footlockers inside one walmart.


----------



## Workaholic

1200 man hours in how many days to complete?


----------



## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> I think you can fit about 24 footlockers inside one walmart.


It was a Super WalMart, more like 48!:whistling2:


----------



## vermontpainter

Our Walmart has a pharmacy, a restaurant, optician, and a footlocker in it.


----------



## NEPS.US

RCP said:


> It was a Super WalMart, more like 48!:whistling2:


It's super nice of Fresh to offer you his expert advice.


----------



## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> It was a Super WalMart, more like 48!:whistling2:


How did you finance it?


----------



## michfan

You know, this thread got me to thinking. How many contractors on here are actually in any position financially or otherwise to take on an enormous commercial project? I guess you would have to define "enormous"...I see these chances to bid on some projects and it scares the pooey outta me. Until I perfect the process of the "small" biz, I'm not thinking twice about tackling something for the big leagues. Not saying we don't do commercial, but messing with the big boys is...well...for the big boys.


----------



## Workaholic

Did he say it was a Wal- Mart?


----------



## Workaholic

michfan said:


> You know, this thread got me to thinking. How many contractors on here are actually in any position financially or otherwise to take on an enormous commercial project? I guess you would have to define "enormous"...I see these chances to bid on some projects and it scares the pooey outta me. Until I perfect the process of the "small" biz, I'm not thinking twice about tackling something for the big leagues. Not saying we don't do commercial, but messing with the big boys is...well...for the big boys.


I am a little guy.


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> I am a little guy.


We're all little guys. Smart little guys tho.


----------



## michfan

vermontpainter said:


> We're all little guys. Smart little guys tho.


Very true, I would rather be little and smart rather than big and dumb. :thumbup:


----------



## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> We're all little guys. Smart little guys tho.


WOW. I was looking for some advice and man did I get it. Thanks all. Was it what I wanted to hear? Doesn't matter - just lookin for some feedback from the pro's. Again -thanks all.


----------



## vermontpainter

Keep on tickin!


----------



## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> How did you finance it?


Had to scrounge all the loose change from the bottom of my purse!

You do have to have the reserves to meet payroll, lift rentals, etc.
Draw schedules can be brutal.


----------



## vermontpainter

KL

The help was sincere. You end up back in the factory, this place is going to feel it. When I walk out the door, I want to know that you are going to be right here. This place needs that whole fresh cat strut thing you do. No one else has that particular schtick. :thumbsup:


----------



## Workaholic

fresh coat said:


> WOW. I was looking for some advice and man did I get it. Thanks all. Was it what I wanted to hear? Doesn't matter - just lookin for some feedback from the pro's. Again -thanks all.


If you wanted people to tell you only what you wanted to hear what would you learn from that? 
If you can't fight the itch to gamble your business on a win or lose deal then i wish you sucess and hope for a "I told you I could do it". Myself If I took that chance then my wife would just want me to get another job.


----------



## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> Had to scrounge all the loose change from the bottom of my purse!
> 
> You do have to have the reserves to meet payroll, lift rentals, etc.
> Draw schedules can be brutal.


You information withholding person you. I bet you used Lucky Louie the Loan Shark. Did you at any point consider selling the "note" (whatever the hell that is)?


----------



## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> You information withholding person you. I bet you used Lucky Louie the Loan Shark. Did you at any point consider selling the "note" (whatever the hell that is)?


Well, at one point I thought I was going to have to sell something!


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> If you wanted people to tell you only what you wanted to hear what would you learn from that?
> If you can't fight the itch to gamble your business on a win or lose deal then i wish you sucess and hope for a "I told you I could do it". Myself If I took that chance then my wife would just want me to get another job.


I agree Sean. I have a wife, child, home, personal and professional responsibilities that make it pretty easy to find that line where you cross and fall on your sword. Everyone is equipped with different decision making mechanisms.


----------



## vermontpainter

Anyone know the story of Icarus?


----------



## vermontpainter

Icarus' father, Daedalus, a talented and remarkable Athenian craftsman, attempted to escape from his exile in the place of Crete, where he and his son were imprisoned at the hands of King Minos, the king for whom he had built the Labyrinth to imprison the Minotaur (half man, half bull). Daedalus, the superior craftsman, was exiled because he gave Minos' daughter, Ariadne, a clew[1] of string in order to help Theseus, the enemy of Minos, survive the Labyrinth and defeat the Minotaur.
Daedalus fashioned two pairs of wings out of wax and feathers for himself and his son. Before they took off from the island, Daedalus warned his son not to fly too close to the sun, nor too close to the sea. Overcome by the giddiness that flying lent him, Icarus soared through the sky curiously, but in the process he came too close to the sun, which melted the wax. Icarus kept flapping his wings but soon realized that he had no feathers left and that he was only flapping his bare arms. And so, Icarus fell into the sea in the area which bears his name, the Icarian Sea near Icaria, an island southwest of Samos.[2]


----------



## NEPS.US

This thread sucked up 28 posts and precious time out of my life I will never get back. What a waste.


----------



## vermontpainter

NEPS.US said:


> This thread sucked up 28 posts and precious time out of my life I will never get back. What a waste.


Look at it this way. Kevin probably doesnt appreciate the advice, because its not a quick and easy answer with immediate results. He wants to go to heaven but he doesnt want to have to die. 

However, I think alot of other people appreciated the discussion and I appreciated CaP and DaveMac and Sean and RC for participating as well. Sometimes a Kevin thread can be just kind all about Kevin, right?


----------



## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> Well, at one point I thought I was going to have to sell something!


Tell me you didnt sell a couple dozen of Robs sprayers to fund that thing?


----------



## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> Tell me you didnt sell a couple dozen of Robs sprayers to fund that thing?


Rob has always told me I was worth my weight in gold, the rigs would be last to go!


----------



## jacob33

I painted a walmart when I worked for my last boss. Actually it was a walmart that got closed and was going to rented to a big lots or something but we had to put two fresh coats on all the walls and a orange stripe around the whole building. It really did not take to long though. They were just huge walls but you could spray them fast.. The problem with big commercial jobs is the draws. You are out your money for a long time if you have to make payroll. I think the biggest commercial Job I ever did was around 150,000 for my old boss and it is tough to float those out between draws.


----------



## jacob33

Also do not forget the retainage. I think that varies from state to state but In my state I believe it is 10% of the job they can hold for up to 1 year.


----------



## jacob33

Did I read somewhere in here it was government work you were bidding on. Because if it is you may have to pay prevailing wage which will kill your estimate of 17.50 and hr payroll. I think prevailing where I am at for painter is around 22 or 23 with your overhead on top of that it will kill your margins if you did not bid for it.


----------



## Workaholic

That's the way to jack up your post count.


----------



## jacob33

You notice I hit 100 with those 3


----------



## jacob33

You got to admit that those posts did contain some brilliant advice. I hope what ever you do Fresh that it works out for you. Just do not bight of more than you can Chew.


----------



## daArch

NEPS.US said:


> This thread sucked up 28 posts and precious time out of my life I will never get back. What a waste.


no one forced you.

With all due respect, one has to know when the point of saturation has been reached. When you fill a glass with beer, do you stop at the top? or keep on pouring? One is ill advised to try pouring 12 ounces of beer into a six ounce glass. And when I do it, I can only blame myself.


----------



## Dave Mac

So fresh what are your thoughts on all this??

Are you going for it all or nothing??


Or are you going to buckle down, build up capitol and experience, and work your way up with small safe secure steps, whear as one mistake wont cost you the farm???

Whats is gonna be???

this is stil a free country (for a little while longer) so you get to choose?


----------



## vermontpainter

Overcome by the giddiness that flying lent him, Icarus soared through the sky curiously, but in the process he came too close to the sun, which melted the wax. Icarus kept flapping his wings but soon realized that he had no feathers left and that he was only flapping his bare arms.


----------



## GMack

I haven't been here in at least two weeks, even to lurk, so let me say, "Damn, it's good to have Scott and Chris around." Excellent advice, boys . . . 

Maybe the OP should just try for the loan he speaks of. He won't get it. He'll learn a bit about dealing with banks in the process. 

But he probably should at least secure a small line of credit to help with cash flow from time to time. Let him get in the hole even a few grand and see for himself that going much deeper isn't really a place he wants to be. One thing about this crew is, we're all self-employed: We can get all the great advice in the world from great and experienced pros but, at the same time, we were probably all that kid who ran our fingers through the flame at the dinner table even though Mom told us not to. My advice to the OP is just wet your finger and move it quickly at first. See if it burns. If it doesn't, maybe try again, etc. 

We just did what I would call a small commercial job this fall, though it was a big job for us. What a learning experience. Between 30 day pay, retainage, dirty working conditions, etc., the only way I'd do it again it for more money. And I wouldn't take a loan to finance it . . . ill-advised.


----------



## johnisimpson

I think one of the highlights for me was the mention of potentially wasting a lot of the past marketing efforts for residential work. It'd be a shame to tie up both residential crews on a large commercial job and create frustrated residential customers who might go on to the next contractor instead of wait (it wasn't a "huge" commercial job, but I learned this through my own mistakes).


----------



## vermontpainter

johnisimpson said:


> I think one of the highlights for me was the mention of potentially wasting a lot of the past marketing efforts for residential work. It'd be a shame to tie up both residential crews on a large commercial job and create frustrated residential customers who might go on to the next contractor instead of wait (it wasn't a "huge" commercial job, but I learned this through my own mistakes).


That was a great point in this thread. I think that is one area that newer businesses fall into...they dont have a clear vision of what the "core" of their business is. Probably doesnt apply to Kevin, but some guys its just like a game of pin the tail on the donkey trying to conjure up some new scheme to either appease their ego, make a quick buck, or both.


----------



## NEPS.US

daArch said:


> no one forced you.
> 
> With all due respect, one has to know when the point of saturation has been reached. When you fill a glass with beer, do you stop at the top? or keep on pouring? One is ill advised to try pouring 12 ounces of beer into a six ounce glass. And when I do it, I can only blame myself.


 
Great analogy Bill. I couldn't agree more.


----------



## vermontpainter

GMack;109680
We just did what I would call a small commercial job this fall said:


> Got a pic? I think you are in my market actually. I've seen your vans around


----------



## patti

*Shift the odds in your favour*

I would concur with much of the seasoned advice you've had here.

If you want to calm your itchy desire why don't you try to arrange a loc anyhow just so you know where the boundaries lie. At least you won't then be frantically trying to arrange it in the heat of a future prospect.

The concensus advice seems to be based on the likelihood of skinny profit margins. With just a couple of years experience under your belt that might indeed be disastrous. So, why not play a long game - send some padded quotes in that give your room for maneuver. In other words be prepared to lose the jobs. I guess you would be able to ask how your bids fared.

Practice makes perfect.

Even better, find someone with experience of this kind of task. An old stager may contribute more than saving your skin. 

Finally, chasing big jobs without good financial and cost controls is a recipe for a gut wrenching exit.


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## vermontpainter

Great advice Patti. As someone else mentioned, soothe the ego, the itchy scratch with some new adventure sport or something. Russian Roulette with your 2 year old business in order to land a "bad boy" or go for "govt cheese" for most would not be a good call. Some dudes think out of the box tho, and make serious bank flying close to the sun. Or not.


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## GMack

vermontpainter said:


> Got a pic? I think you are in my market actually. I've seen your vans around


I've seen you, too. Top Notch Painting, or something, right? No pics yet. I have to get down there . . .


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## vermontpainter

GMack said:


> I've seen you, too. Top Notch Painting, or something, right? No pics yet. I have to get down there . . .


We should grab a coffee sometime.


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## vermontpainter

I was ponder this topic a bit more. Kev, I remember last fall you set up a little deal, something like a "paint now, pay in 4 months." I am wondering if this plan, while boosting sales, has hindered cash flow? Just in the sense that you are now looking at commercial that you cant fund. If cash flow was good, and immediate, would you be in a better position?

I dont know about y'all but cash flow is key these days.


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## KLaw

Dave Mac said:


> So fresh what are your thoughts on all this??
> 
> Are you going for it all or nothing??
> 
> 
> Or are you going to buckle down, build up capitol and experience, and work your way up with small safe secure steps, whear as one mistake wont cost you the farm???
> 
> Whats is gonna be???
> 
> this is stil a free country (for a little while longer) so you get to choose?


Really, I think it is a hypothetical at this point. I don't see a bank loaning us the kinda cash we need for a large commercial. 

But if they would - would I go for it? Maybe.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> That was a great point in this thread. I think that is one area that newer businesses fall into...they dont have a clear vision of what the "core" of their business is. Probably doesnt apply to Kevin, but some guys its just like a game of pin the tail on the donkey trying to conjure up some new scheme to either appease their ego, make a quick buck, or both.


I hear what y'all are saying about the the resi marketing but we market to commercial as well. My ideal foundation would be 25% resi, 50% commercial / industrial, and 25% (don't laugh) apartment and rentals.


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## vermontpainter

Kev

Best advice would be to try another one that is Foot Locker size and show yourself that you can do it profitably before you try to go large.


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## KLaw

patti said:


> I would concur with much of the seasoned advice you've had here.
> 
> If you want to calm your itchy desire why don't you try to arrange a loc anyhow just so you know where the boundaries lie. At least you won't then be frantically trying to arrange it in the heat of a future prospect.
> 
> The concensus advice seems to be based on the likelihood of skinny profit margins. With just a couple of years experience under your belt that might indeed be disastrous. So, why not play a long game - *send some padded quotes in that give your room for maneuver*. In other words be prepared to lose the jobs. I guess you would be able to ask how your bids fared.
> 
> Practice makes perfect.
> 
> Even better, find someone with experience of this kind of task. An old stager may contribute more than saving your skin.
> 
> Finally, chasing big jobs without good financial and cost controls is a recipe for a gut wrenching exit.


Patti: Awesome post. Thanks for the advice. Thanks.


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## KLaw

vermontpainter said:


> I was ponder this topic a bit more. Kev, I remember last fall you set up a little deal, something like a "paint now, pay in 4 months." I am wondering if this plan, while boosting sales, has hindered cash flow? Just in the sense that you are now looking at commercial that you cant fund. If cash flow was good, and immediate, would you be in a better position?
> 
> I dont know about y'all but cash flow is key these days.


Currently, I don't have any residual income for the 4 month thing. Cash flow issues are due to some flat out mistakes on our end. We are not job to job by any means. But let's just say the best piece of advice on this board has been stated several times. Know your numbers. We reconciled at the end of each month. I have since learned that is too late. At the end of job and during each job is critical. What's funny is that is common sense but I didn't see it


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## kanadaeh

fresh coat said:


> And that is my challenge. But, if I can just land one of these bad boys and prove to the lender that we are capable of payback, then the next one just gets easier.


I learned the hard way that it usually does not work out like this. I signed a commercial contract awhile back ($140,000, 3mth) with almost no cash flow and two employees...Lil... wanted to run with the big boys. Found a personal lender 2 days before my first 8,000 payroll. I simply gave him a copy of our contract and let him know he could lien the project if he did not receive payment. Here are some of the mistakes I had made.

Mistake #1- did not borrow enough, borrowed 20,000 when I should have borrowed 80,000. I was constantly chasing draws to pay bills.
Mistake #2- did not extend the loan long enough. Figured we had a contract stating draws every 30 days what could go wrong? A lot. See, most contractors pay your first draw or two to get you started so you let your guard down. It is the last draws and hold backs that are hard to collect and you will hear every excuse in the book, and if you give them a hard time, they will pick your work apart to no end. I soon learned why I was the only trade speaking up, the others know better.
Mistake #3- Thinking I would have enough profit left over to finance my own big projects from now on. In this business any profit will get eaten up somewhere, especially if you are experiencing growth. Here it is about 12 large projects later and I am still going to a personal lender to finance projects, lol. 

It is a tough business and even though I often hear how great everyone is doing, I know you really have to work on your business to succeed. My goal is to evolve into a profitable commercial painting contractor. I am constantly tweaking our model and when I look back to when we started, we have totally changed directions. 

Anyways, that was our experience.


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## KLaw

kanadaeh said:


> I learned the hard way that it usually does not work out like this. I signed a commercial contract awhile back ($140,000, 3mth) with almost no cash flow and two employees...Lil... wanted to run with the big boys. Found a personal lender 2 days before my first 8,000 payroll. I simply gave him a copy of our contract and let him know he could lien the project if he did not receive payment. Here are some of the mistakes I had made.
> 
> Mistake #1- did not borrow enough, borrowed 20,000 when I should have borrowed 80,000. I was constantly chasing draws to pay bills.
> Mistake #2- did not extend the loan long enough. Figured we had a contract stating draws every 30 days what could go wrong? A lot. See, most contractors pay your first draw or two to get you started so you let your guard down. It is the last draws and hold backs that are hard to collect and you will hear every excuse in the book, and if you give them a hard time, they will pick your work apart to no end. I soon learned why I was the only trade speaking up, the others know better.
> Mistake #3- Thinking I would have enough profit left over to finance my own big projects from now on. In this business any profit will get eaten up somewhere, especially if you are experiencing growth. Here it is about 12 large projects later and I am still going to a personal lender to finance projects, lol.
> 
> It is a tough business and even though I often hear how great everyone is doing, I know you really have to work on your business to succeed. My goal is to evolve into a profitable commercial painting contractor. I am constantly tweaking our model and when I look back to when we started, we have totally changed directions.
> 
> Anyways, that was our experience.


K: Thank you very much. I am pretty sure you just described in detail what we would have ended up going through. I was laughing as I read your post. Not at you - but with you. Appreciate the insight.


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## kanadaeh

fresh coat said:


> K: Thank you very much. I am pretty sure you just described in detail what we would have ended up going through. I was laughing as I read your post. Not at you - but with you. Appreciate the insight.


 I laugh myself when I think about some of the crazy moves we make. I could write a pretty interesting book on the crap we have been through in the last year, you have no idea. I think you become immune to the stress and sleepless nights after awhile. All in a days work, lol. Just remember, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.


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## KLaw

kanadaeh said:


> I laugh myself when I think about some of the crazy moves we make. I could write a pretty interesting book on the crap we have been through in the last year, you have no idea. I think you become immune to the stress and sleepless nights after awhile. All in a days work, lol. Just remember, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.


 
So true. Sometimes, I let my gumption / emotion / ego drive our decision process. A lot of folks on here get peeved because I do not heed their advice as gospel. We might be bettter off if I did. But, I roll with my gut sometimes. Sometimes it works / sometimes I get burned.


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## NEPS.US

fresh coat said:


> So true. Sometimes, I let my gumption / emotion / ego drive our decision process. A lot of folks on here get peeved because I do not heed their advice as gospel. We might be bettter off if I did. But, I roll with my gut sometimes. Sometimes it works / sometimes I get burned.


There is nothing wrong with being excited about your business and wanting to do great. I think you need to reel in that emotion form time to think about your actions.


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## kanadaeh

fresh coat said:


> So true. Sometimes, I let my gumption / emotion / ego drive our decision process. A lot of folks on here get peeved because I do not heed their advice as gospel. We might be bettter off if I did. But, I roll with my gut sometimes. Sometimes it works / sometimes I get burned.


I believe a lot of empires were born by the roll of the gut...lol


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## KLaw

NEPS.US said:


> There is nothing wrong with being excited about your business and wanting to do great. I think you need to reel in that emotion form time to think about your actions.


I agree 100%. Definitely something I need to work on. But, on the same token, I don't want to completly squash it.


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## KLaw

kanadaeh said:


> I believe a lot of empires were born by the roll of the gut...*lol*


My "thanks" was for lol part!


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## kanadaeh

fresh coat said:


> My "thanks" was for lol part!


It is funny... but true


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## Schmidt & Co.

For me personally, It's easy to get caught in the wanting to be a "Big guy" mentality. A fleet of trucks, big shop etc. I think it's best to find out what you are good at, and STICK TO IT!. And for me, it's a small shop, no more than 5 guys, and me in the field.

Back in 96 we did our "Large job". It was about a 100,000 sf factory including all the offices at the front of the building. It _could _have gone bad, but we were "lucky". 

The paint store we buy from supplied all of the maintnence coatings for this company, and when they were moving to a larger facility, we were recomended and got the job.

Our bid was for _labor only. _All coatings were provided so there was one less variable to worry about. The buisness was privatley owned. We were dealing *directly *with the owner and regular progress payments were made. 

We had 12 guys on the job, including me and my father. He ran half the job and I ran the other half. All in all, we made money. But we should have done better. The _reward_ was not worth the _risk_.


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## Woody

Schmidt & Co. said:


> For me personally, It's easy to get caught in the wanting to be a "Big guy" mentality. A fleet of trucks, big shop etc. I think it's best to find out what you are good at, and STICK TO IT!. And for me, it's a small shop, no more than 5 guys, and me in the field.
> 
> Back in 96 we did our "Large job". It was about a 100,000 sf factory including all the offices at the front of the building. It _could _have gone bad, but we were "lucky".
> 
> The paint store we buy from supplied all of the maintnence coatings for this company, and when they were moving to a larger facility, we were recomended and got the job.
> 
> Our bid was for _labor only. _All coatings were provided so there was one less variable to worry about. The buisness was privatley owned. We were dealing *directly *with the owner and regular progress payments were made.
> 
> We had 12 guys on the job, including me and my father. He ran half the job and I ran the other half. All in all, we made money. But we should have done better. The _reward_ was not worth the _risk_.


"The reward ,was NOT worth the risk"..... Thats the story of my life.
I know a lot about this buisness..BUT The reward was not worth the risk......lol...

You made my day.


Stay Frosty


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