# Help! - I ruined my clients kitchen cabinets



## Peakhomeservices

I have been painting for 5 years now and for the most part have had no complaints and my clients are happy. I took a kitchen cabinet job because business has been so slow but I normally turn these down. I also painted about a dozen doors, door jambs and casing - along with all the baseboard in this 1000 square foot townhome. 

Two issues 

1. Kitchen cabinets - I asked a Home Depot Paint person what to use as primer and they told me Gripper. (I now want to strangle this person) I used it and not until after it was all primed and painted/sprayed that all the grains in the wood and the grease started popping back out. I put about three coats of high gloss latex Behr paint on trying in desperation to cover everything but the grains still come back. My clients are furious but want to give me the chance to fix it. Since not everything looks bad I would like to go back over all the bad areas with a sponge roller and brush with oil based kilz and then paint over those areas. My clients want the whole thing all resprayed with Kilz and then paint. I talked to one painter who told me that because they are oak cabinets if I don't brush the oil kilz into the grains that they will pop out but my clients want it re-sprayed. 

Any advice?

2. Second issue - price - I originally quoted them about $900 for the cabinets and all the doors and trim - they talked me down to $800 including paint (I already spent $250.00 in paint). Now that I have done the project I realize that this was way too low - anyone agree? Especially if I would have done it the correct way originally with oil based kilz - the time it takes to clean the sprayer etc... Obviously I am going to make NO money on this whatsoever since I have to re-do the cabinets. I feel like I should ask for some additional compensation for using the oil but not sure this is fair since I messed up their cabinets - I never should have taken the job in the first place for one!

Any advice?


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## tsunamicontract

hmm, I was wrong. It is more than just summit county . . .
http://www.painttalk.com/f2/summit-county-co-5000/


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## painter213

First off. NEVER ask a salesman at HD about anything to do with paint. They have no CLUE. Second. In order to get the grain filled in, You have to brush or roll the primer on. Spraying the primer on only let's the coating bridge over the grain and never let's the coating get down in the grain to properly fill. Then with a little temperature rise you have the grain being exposed again as you have going on now. From what I can make out in your post, you need to sand everything down and seal that grain up properly and then go from there. Once the grain is filled you can level sand everything down and then proceed with spraying. If I was there in person I could tell you more. Sounds like you just need to get them fixed, collect the money that is owed and chaulk this up as a learing curve. Next time if you think the job is worth $900, then stick to it. When you go down in price, you are only asking for trouble because now the client will expect more bang for their Buck. You can send me a e-mail and I will send you my address so you can send me a Check for $50 for my consulting service.:thumbsup:


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## TooledUp

Well at least you have the guts to admit you were out of your league. Kudos for that. It's probably time to get a job with a real painter for a few years before you have to add a few zeros onto the amount of damage you have to make good or get sued for.

Maybe this thread could be an example of a lesson as to what will eventually happen for anyone wanting to set up as a painter without any training and/or too little experience.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Getting a Job is your Advice?*

Okay I did $250,000 in business last year as a remodeling contractor and didn't have a single loss on any job. So I think I will stick with this but I just won't be painting any more cabinets.


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## TooledUp

Peakhomeservices said:


> Okay I did $250,000 in business last year as a remodeling contractor and didn't have a single loss on any job. So I think I will stick with this but I just won't be painting any more cabinets.


Wow! That is a heck of a drop in business from $250,000 worth of work to go down to painting a few cabinets to make ends meet.

It's a pity that the word of mouth referals didn't make out.


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## daren

This is why we say don't ever buy paint from HD or Lowes. Go to a paint store. Any paint store. The problem is not the cabinets. It's education and experience. There is nothing strange about cabinets. The challenge is that it takes more work to make them look good. 

Your price of $900 was probably too low to begin with. There is no way I would ask for more money. Eat it and move on. Tatoo this lesson in your brain. People cherish their kitchens but if they don't want to pay to do the job right then don't take the job. These people will tell this story to everyone that visits.


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## Peakhomeservices

daren said:


> This is why we say don't ever buy paint from HD or Lowes. Go to a paint store. Any paint store. The problem is not the cabinets. It's education and experience. There is nothing strange about cabinets. The challenge is that it takes more work to make them look good.
> 
> Your price of $900 was probably too low to begin with. There is no way I would ask for more money. Eat it and move on. Tatoo this lesson in your brain. People cherish their kitchens but if they don't want to pay to do the job right then don't take the job. These people will tell this story to everyone that visits.


I only took the job because they said it was a rental and that they weren't going to live in it. In the end they acted as picky as if they were going to live there. So go figure. I have been very fortunate that this is my first unhappy client in 5 years. Thank God.


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## 1977corey

TooledUp said:


> Wow! That is a heck of a drop in business from $250,000 worth of work to go down to painting a few cabinets to make ends meet.
> 
> It's a pity that the word of mouth referals didn't make out.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:, ........Home Depot? Kilz? Gripper for painted cabinets?
I'd stick with re-modeling............


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## Peakhomeservices

*Criticism*



1977corey said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:, ........Home Depot? Kilz? Gripper for painted cabinets?
> I'd stick with re-modeling............



Wow when I came on this site I wasn't really expecting to be ridiculed. It sounds like some of you don't have much going on with business either since you don't have anything better to do than make fun of someone who is asking for advice and openly admitting they made a mistake. 

Thanks for making me feel so welcome to this site. I am sure that I won't be sticking around much longer here.

Oh and by the way yes I do buy all of my paint at Home Depot. My clients love that I use Behr paint especially given it was just rated the #1 paint by Consumer Reports two months ago. 

And the cabinets weren't painted. They were stained and I painted over them. I already know that I should have used Oil-based Kilz. What is wrong with Kilz anyway? I have never had a problem with it.

Never mind, don't answer that. I don't need more nasty words from you.


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## 1977corey

Peakhomeservices said:


> Wow when I came on this site I wasn't really expecting to be ridiculed. It sounds like some of you don't have much going on with business either since you don't have anything better to do than make fun of someone who is asking for advice and openly admitting they made a mistake.
> 
> Thanks for making me feel so welcome to this site. I am sure that I won't be sticking around much longer here.
> 
> Oh and by the way yes I do buy all of my paint at Home Depot. My clients love that I use Behr paint especially given it was just rated the #1 paint by Consumer Reports two months ago.
> 
> And the cabinets weren't painted. They were stained and I painted over them. I already know that I should have used Oil-based Kilz. What is wrong with Kilz anyway? I have never had a problem with it.
> 
> Never mind, don't answer that. I don't need more nasty words from you.


Please don't CHOOSE to be offended, I welcome you here with enthusiasm, differing opinions and views are what makes this site for what it is.
As of me posting comments during business hours, i just came back from a 1.2 million dollar new construction job, to come home for a break, and to go off and pressure wash a house, and to get a deck cleaned for staining this weekend.


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## wje

If you brush 2 coats of BIN on them that should jsut about do it then recoat with your latex. 1 coat will not fully seal the bleed. Gripper is a great conversion primer which i use if i am doing cupboards made of melomine, but as far as sealing a natural wood you need some shelac or it will bleed no matter how many coats of latex you use. Like the others said, I wouldn't ask for more money either, just think of it as a $900 lesson and get out of there as fast as you can. In the future if you have a wooded object the shelac base primers work best directly on the surface you are trying to cover, but will still work ontop of painted wood but will take more coats.
Good luck


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## deach

Ya don't be offended. It's not worth it. There's lots of good info here. And you can honestly receive help from time to time. I think Painter 213 answered the way I would proceed. You opened a can of worms with the "home depot" thing. You need to understand with "RARE" exception they don't have a clue there. 

Now then about the Behr paint thingy......it is the general consensus among professionals that Behr is a "home owner" paint. That means it's thicker, doesn't handle as well and several other things I can think of. Is it Rated #1 I believe that might be correct. I just lost two 2000 plus interiors cause I didn't want to use it and tried to steer them away. Behr can be "adjusted" about 10 percent according to the Mo area paint rep and after talking to him at great length he "does" have a clue. I've yet to use it on a project, however I'm getting tired of giving work away too. I'm honestly not sure what the future holds for me there. 

At any rate... Just remember the people at HD may or may not (usually may not) be able to actually advise you. Don't leave the forums cause you got a few snide comments. I personally give you great respect for coming here and admitting you made a mistake (and I want to honestly know who here hasn't)....... Good luck with the cabinets. I believe your question as to how to handle it was answered...Let us know how it turns out OK???


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## vermontpainter

You didnt prep them well enough. Kitchen cabinets are remarkably nasty - grease, dishsoap, coffee spills, cleaning residue - they have everything that even the best primer does not want to adhere to. You have to prep the crap out them before even considering applying finish. We all take one on the chin at some point. You just took one on the chin.


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## Wolfgang

Ginny, sorry about the reception you received....different people=different personalities. Painting over old stained finished cabinets is one of the toughest things you can do. You've gotten some good advice here and though we may all use different products, the basics remain the same.

I've used Behr paints numerous times on the insurance resto end of my business because some of the ins companies require me to buy on their accounts at the box stores. I'm probably one of the few here who feel if you're a professional you should be able to apply just about any paint with satisfactory results. Granted, Behr products may not be my first choice, if the customer wants it and pays for it, so be it.

I've used Behr Ultra White Exterior Satin as trim paint on numerous insurance jobs and have never had a problem. Holds up well, doesnt yellow, takes abuse, and cleans nicely.

But to each their own. Sometimes you have to play the cards your dealt.


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## deach

You know Wolfgang? I totally agree. Sometimes you could "adjust the product" also...I know I for one am tired of loosing jobs because I try to steer people away from certain products. I mean seriously if a home owner can do it can't we?? I've honestly seen a couple pretty nice interior jobs done by homeowners that I did the exterior on. Maybe it's time for a thought process change and use all that commercialism to my favor instead of fighting it. While I seriously doubt I'll use it unless requested, maybe it's time to get that money off the table instead of leaving it there for someone else.


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## MAK-Deco

I have felt its more about service at BB stores when it comes to the paint they sell, case in point the HD paint guy recommending products for this cabinet job...


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## wje

I hate the home depot. It has a parking lot in which it takes me 10 minutes to get from my van to the paint section, then i have to wait 10 mins to show up to the paint section, then if i need a colour match? HAAA good luck. The old line "well thats the formula the computer gave me" line for botched colour matches is getting old. Big Box is convenient for a DIY... when was the last time you guys got 48% off your paint on a day to day basis at HD? Oh they don't offer trade discounts here.. How many HD stores get you calls day in day ouy? I know in a pinch they serve their purpose but you will never get the service from a HD that you would from a local more personal paint store.


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## vermontpainter

Peakhomeservices said:


> I used it and not until after it was all primed and painted/sprayed that all the grains in the wood and the grease started popping back out. I put about three coats of high gloss latex Behr paint on trying in desperation to cover everything but the grains still come back.]
> 
> Guys, as much as its fun to bash bb stores, this is fundamentally a prep issue. And secondly, no matter how much primer/paint you lay on there, the oak grain is not likely to disappear, oak is too open grained. You need to fill it with a swedish putty type of product which is insanely labor intensive.


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## Wolfgang

Never take advice from the guy/gal behind the paint counter in the orange apron. One of the hardest things I have to do when I go to HD to get something in the paint section is keeping a straight neutral face when I hear the 19 year old "pro" advising the customer on what product to use and how to use it.


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## Wolfgang

vermontpainter said:


> Peakhomeservices said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used it and not until after it was all primed and painted/sprayed that all the grains in the wood and the grease started popping back out. I put about three coats of high gloss latex Behr paint on trying in desperation to cover everything but the grains still come back.]
> 
> Guys, as much as its fun to bash bb stores, this is fundamentally a prep issue. And secondly, no matter how much primer/paint you lay on there, the oak grain is not likely to disappear, oak is too open grained. You need to fill it with a swedish putty type of product which is insanely labor intensive.
> 
> 
> 
> And *that* is the "missing link" for getting rid of open wood grain. Well said Scott.
Click to expand...


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## MAK-Deco

vermontpainter said:


> Peakhomeservices said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used it and not until after it was all primed and painted/sprayed that all the grains in the wood and the grease started popping back out. I put about three coats of high gloss latex Behr paint on trying in desperation to cover everything but the grains still come back.]
> 
> Guys, as much as its fun to bash bb stores, this is fundamentally a prep issue. And secondly, no matter how much primer/paint you lay on there, the oak grain is not likely to disappear, oak is too open grained. You need to fill it with a swedish putty type of product which is insanely labor intensive.
> 
> 
> 
> I was not referring to the cabinets, I was referring to taking any advice from the orange apron. I certainly understand the issue at hand with oak cabs and wood grain.
Click to expand...


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## BrushJockey

I agree it's the prep, and also educating the client (and the painter).
Oak has a physical look that even if fully covered, the grain shows. I for one think it is nice, but the customer should know that it won't look like formica. 
It will look like painted oak.
And Gripper is an OK choice as long as the cabs were cleaned and sanded. 
Spraying is not going to get in that grain, at least one , if not all coats must be brushed in. 
I do buy some primers from the box, but only primers. I don't ask the kids for advice either.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Thank you everyone*



BrushJockey said:


> I agree it's the prep, and also educating the client (and the painter).
> Oak has a physical look that even if fully covered, the grain shows. I for one think it is nice, but the customer should know that it won't look like formica.
> It will look like painted oak.
> And Gripper is an OK choice as long as the cabs were cleaned and sanded.
> Spraying is not going to get in that grain, at least one , if not all coats must be brushed in.
> I do buy some primers from the box, but only primers. I don't ask the kids for advice either.



Thank you very much for all the advice. If I would not have come on this site I would not have gotten the consistent feedback that the grains need to have the oil based primer brushed into it, I would have done the cabinets again and still had the same results. So now I have one last question.

After I brush the primer on, does it matter whether I spray the cabinets with the high gloss paint or is a roller and brush going to work just as well? I am trying to do what my clients want but so far you all are telling me that I need to use a brush and roller for the primer so I am going to have to tell them that the spraying won't work for that part. What about the final coat of paint???


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## [email protected]

Final coat of paint? Anything but Behr... It's only rated #1 due to Home owners who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and it's overly funded advertising.... Any GOOD painter knows to use any other product. Try BM Impervo or SW ProClassic.


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## BrushJockey

BrushJockey said:


> I agree it's the prep, and also educating the client (and the painter).
> Oak has a physical look that even if fully covered, the grain shows. I for one think it is nice, but the customer should know that it won't look like formica.
> It will look like painted oak.
> And Gripper is an OK choice as long as the cabs were cleaned and sanded.
> *Spraying is not going to get in that grain, at least one , if not all coats must be brushed in. *
> I do buy some primers from the box, but only primers. I don't ask the kids for advice either.


See above


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## Bender

Yeah brush em. That will fix all your problems


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## [email protected]

I think the issue is filling in the grain. If you use something other than primer for grain filling, then you could spray the primer and the top coat. If you use the primer to fill the grain, then the consensus is roll and brush it. Following a roll and brush application with spraying the topcoat will be fine.


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## johnpaint

I think VP in right on here, when you think you have kitchen wood work clean, go over it again.Take your finger nail and see if you can get under the old top coat, if you can that will all have to come off before you prime coat.even after you prime test with your finger nail the hardness.


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## Bender

You can't fill in oak wood grain. Its more of a texture then a 'grain'


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## tsunamicontract

if your primer comes off, maybe just chem strip them at this point. get everything off.


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## daArch

Bender said:


> You can't fill in oak wood grain. Its more of a texture then a 'grain'



To that point.

back in the 70's wasn't thier a "sanding sealer" that would fill oak grain better tahn any primer could? True, one would still see the "texture" but the grain was better sealed.

granted I do not know the new products, but I never saw a paint or primer that would succesfully fill oak grain.


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## johnpaint

daArch said:


> To that point.
> 
> back in the 70's wasn't thier a "sanding sealer" that would fill oak grain better tahn any primer could? True, one would still see the "texture" but the grain was better sealed.
> 
> granted I do not know the new products, but I never saw a paint or primer that would succesfully fill oak grain.


There was, and I think still is a sanding sealer you can use, but it still would not level completly the grain.If you had all the time in the world you could go over it with red body filler and sand, but who would spend the time.


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## ewingpainting.net

It sucks getting over your head. Huh? All business owners have. I am trying to shake one off myself. It's'good though, it makes you humble. 
And after this pain you'll be a wiz at painting cabnets but yet with caution.
So now, can you help me? I cant get a bathroom door to close on a bathroom remodel job i just did. JK


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## johnpaint

ewingpainting.net said:


> It sucks getting over your head. Huh? All business owners have. I am trying to shake one off myself. It's'good though, it makes you humble.
> And after this pain you'll be a wiz at painting cabnets but yet with caution.
> So now, can you help me? I cant get a bathroom door to close on a bathroom remodel job i just did. JK


I will be right down, do you have a place for me to stay?


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## HeatherP

I have a bunch of different cabinet doors, some oak, some melamine, some maple that I have painted in different finishes. One oak door I filled the grain and then primed/painted and recorded the time on the back of the door. When I go to quote kitchen cabinets (I hate! painting cabinets!!!), I take all the doors with me for samples. If it is an oak kitchen, I show them my oak sample door with the grain filled and the one without grain fill. If they then choose to have the cupboards painted they have never chosen the filled grain option. Too much labour involved!!!


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## Schmidt & Co.

Before you do your repair, paint *one *cabinet door & get your customers approval before you proceed to paint any further.


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## johnpaint

I really don't do kitchen cabinets anymore I can't charge enough.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Painting one cabinet door*



Schmidt & Co. said:


> Before you do your repair, paint *one *cabinet door & get your customers approval before you proceed to paint any further.



That is a GREAT idea. Especially since they are so angry. It has been a long time since I have had a really angry customer. 

I think that I will definitely do that. That is great advice and may keep me out of court since they are already threatening in a round about way that they will sue me if I can't fix them.


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## daArch

I remember kitch cabs I had to refinish. Billed as T&M. I had to strip (by hand) all the old wax, grease, varnish, and stain off and then paint. They were gorgeous, but the invoice made the HO cry, literally. We did not part on good terms.


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## MAK-Deco

johnpaint said:


> I really don't do kitchen cabinets anymore I can't charge enough.


:thumbsup:


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## Last Craftsman

I don't know where to start so I will stop.

:blink:


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## ProWallGuy




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## nEighter

I wish you the best of luck on this.


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## Last Craftsman

deach said:


> Maybe it's time for a thought process change and use all that commercialism to my favor instead of fighting it. While I seriously doubt I'll use it unless requested, maybe it's time to get that money off the table instead of leaving it there for someone else.


Every time I get to thinking maybe I should try something I have traditionally avoided, I quickly remember why I avoided doing it in the first place.

It's easy to start thinking about missed opportunities, but just try and remember all the times you ate the cost of trying a product/method you had serious doubts about in the first place.

Regarding Behr paint. I have also seen it look ok. But that's an exception. The thing about sticking with products that you already know for sure will work, is you can COUNT on the results.

Even if only 1 in 10 jobs go bad as a result of letting the owner pick/purchase the products, it's not worth it.

However I think the ratio is much worse than 1 in 10.

Besides, the main thing I like to eliminate is randomness, variables, and question marks.

I sleep better not having to wonder the whole job whether something will work or not, or having to be quick on my feet to always be improvising and adapting to unfamiliar processes or products.

Don't be tempted to go against your instincts. You will wish you had not.


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## DeanV

Last Craftsman said:


> Every time I get to thinking maybe I should try something I have traditionally avoided, I quickly remember why I avoided doing it in the first place.
> 
> It's easy to start thinking about missed opportunities, but just try and remember all the times you ate the cost of trying a product/method you had serious doubts about in the first place.
> 
> Regarding Behr paint. I have also seen it look ok. But that's an exception. The thing about sticking with products that you already know for sure will work, is you can COUNT on the results.
> 
> Even if only 1 in 10 jobs go bad as a result of letting the owner pick/purchase the products, it's not worth it.
> 
> However I think the ratio is much worse than 1 in 10.
> 
> Besides, the main thing I like to eliminate is randomness, variables, and question marks.
> 
> I sleep better not having to wonder the whole job whether something will work or not, or having to be quick on my feet to always be improvising and adapting to unfamiliar processes or products.
> 
> Don't be tempted to go against your instincts. You will wish you had not.



Well said.:thumbsup:


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## daren

Last Craftsman,

You are dead on right.


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## daArch

well said, LC ! :thumbup:

Good lesson for all of us to remember to remember


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## ledgestonepainting

I know I'm coming in on this a little late but heres my 2 cents. I redid my parents cab last year. I used a grey tinted oil primer, rolled and brushed in. I then filled what grain that showed through with a filler, sanded, reprimed, sanded and 2 coats sprayed finish.

Like has been said, cabs take a LOT of work to look good. Here is a picture of my "grain filling" step


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## NE MPLS

[email protected] said:


> Final coat of paint? Anything but Behr... It's only rated #1 due to Home owners who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and it's overly funded advertising.... Any GOOD painter knows to use any other product. Try BM Impervo or SW ProClassic.


I agree.


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## josey wales

Funny this posts pops up , i just finished repainting a whole bunch of cabinets for a client. The finished product came out great, but talk about labour intensive. I did not want to do them , but there was other work i wanted in the house, and the cabinet job was part and parcel. I had priced for the work, but what a pain removing all doors and hardware , prep, spraying them up and reinsatalling. The job led to two referalls, so something good came from it. Cabinets are a pain.


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## flowjo

painting cabinets is what you do when you die and go to hell


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## DeanV

I ike doing cabinets and wish I would get more of those jobs.


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## KLaw

DeanV said:


> I ike doing cabinets and wish I would get more of those jobs.


Have you considered making this a niche? After seeing all of these negative posts, I am thinking about it. Basically, define the process, streamline the work. Nail down your hours for quoting accuracy. Add to your literature that you specialize in cabinet refinishing. Someone stated earlier that they bring door samples to identify different looks (true wood grain, fillers, etc...). I thought that was a killer idea. My main concern would be this type of work is like w/p removal. You never know what you are getting into. We've only done a few cabinet jobs and they seemed to turn out a decent profit - very labor intense and expensive to the HO.


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## 1977corey

fresh coat said:


> Have you considered making this a niche? After seeing all of these negative posts, I am thinking about it. Basically, define the process, streamline the work. Nail down your hours for quoting accuracy. Add to your literature that you specialize in cabinet refinishing. Someone stated earlier that they bring door samples to identify different looks (true wood grain, fillers, etc...). I thought that was a killer idea. My main concern would be this type of work is like w/p removal. You never know what you are getting into. We've only done a few cabinet jobs and they seemed to turn out a decent profit - very labor intense and expensive to the HO.


Isnt 'Freshcoatpainters' a franchise www.freshcoatpainters.com , sort of pretty much the same as Certapro www.certapro.com ....Collegepro www.collegepro.com ......???????????????????????
:whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2:


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## jacob33

Hey I doubt if they will sue you that is very expensive for them maybe small claims court but I doubt it. Anywise the one door approval than finish the rest is the way to go. I would have them sign a paper that states the refinished door is acceptable and to do the rest. Now for fixing the cabinet itself which you may have already done but here is my advice. I would sand them really well. Then I would brush and oil based primer If you do thin the primer thin it with pentrol instead of thinner. Maybe even do two coats to try and fill the gaps between coats. Obviously sand between coats. Than apply the finish and and sand and tack cloth between those coats to remove the dust. This should get you a good finish. For you paint choice I would use benjamin moore. If it is an oil finish the satin impervo lays out nice and looks great but from your post I gather that you are using latex. Good luck


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## deach

Last Craftsman said:


> Every time I get to thinking maybe I should try something I have traditionally avoided, I quickly remember why I avoided doing it in the first place.
> 
> It's easy to start thinking about missed opportunities, but just try and remember all the times you ate the cost of trying a product/method you had serious doubts about in the first place.
> 
> Regarding Behr paint. I have also seen it look ok. But that's an exception. The thing about sticking with products that you already know for sure will work, is you can COUNT on the results.
> 
> Even if only 1 in 10 jobs go bad as a result of letting the owner pick/purchase the products, it's not worth it.
> 
> However I think the ratio is much worse than 1 in 10.
> 
> Besides, the main thing I like to eliminate is randomness, variables, and question marks.
> 
> I sleep better not having to wonder the whole job whether something will work or not, or having to be quick on my feet to always be improvising and adapting to unfamiliar processes or products.
> 
> Don't be tempted to go against your instincts. You will wish you had not.


I'm sure you're probably right. No point in fighting my instincts. Good Advice.


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## admirableptg

home depot sells paint?


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## Peakhomeservices

*Cabinets*



jacob33 said:


> Hey I doubt if they will sue you that is very expensive for them maybe small claims court but I doubt it. Anywise the one door approval than finish the rest is the way to go. I would have them sign a paper that states the refinished door is acceptable and to do the rest. Now for fixing the cabinet itself which you may have already done but here is my advice. I would sand them really well. Then I would brush and oil based primer If you do thin the primer thin it with pentrol instead of thinner. Maybe even do two coats to try and fill the gaps between coats. Obviously sand between coats. Than apply the finish and and sand and tack cloth between those coats to remove the dust. This should get you a good finish. For you paint choice I would use benjamin moore. If it is an oil finish the satin impervo lays out nice and looks great but from your post I gather that you are using latex. Good luck


The more I hear from all of you the more I realize it probably wasn't the brand of paint - which many of you have given me a hard time for using Behr paint - but the method of application. These cabinets never should have been sprayed in the first place but should have been brushed and rolled. So now I have to tell the client that. No I have not fixed these yet. I have to do them on July 3rd when the client comes back into town. They want it done in two days so I am not sure how I am going to do one door as a sample for them since the oil primer has to dry for 24 hours. Doing a sample would turn it into a four day project. Also, keep in mind that the majority of the cabinets ie. the insides are mostly done and okay. It is the wood grain on the solid part of the doors and the wood grain on the thin veneer backing that is popping everywhere so I really just want to touch these up with the brush and roller where needed. So I have to stick with the Behr paint as the final coat. 

Most of my work has been restoration work where the client already has a paint to use or they have picked it out. In three years of restoration work only about 4 clients have asked for Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. The rest has been Kwal or Behr. 

Also, you all should know that the majority of my new clients have already picked out a Behr paint color before I even arrive to give an estimate. I guess Behr is pretty big out here in Colorado. So I don't ever try to talk them out of using what they want to unless they pick Kwal or Glidden because frankly I think that both of those paints are inferior to Behr. So we are left with Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams which in this economy where half of my potential customers are ending up doing the work themselves or not at all and not even hiring a painter - are too costly. 

Maybe the rest of you out there have more choices than that.


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## 1977corey

Peakhomeservices said:


> The more I hear from all of you the more I realize it probably wasn't the brand of paint - which many of you have given me a hard time for using Behr paint - but the method of application. These cabinets never should have been sprayed in the first place but should have been brushed and rolled. So now I have to tell the client that. No I have not fixed these yet. I have to do them on July 3rd when the client comes back into town. They want it done in two days so I am not sure how I am going to do one door as a sample for them since the oil primer has to dry for 24 hours. Doing a sample would turn it into a four day project. Also, keep in mind that the majority of the cabinets ie. the insides are mostly done and okay. It is the wood grain on the solid part of the doors and the wood grain on the thin veneer backing that is popping everywhere so I really just want to touch these up with the brush and roller where needed. So I have to stick with the Behr paint as the final coat.
> 
> Most of my work has been restoration work where the client already has a paint to use or they have picked it out. In three years of restoration work only about 4 clients have asked for Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. The rest has been Kwal or Behr.
> 
> Also, you all should know that the majority of my new clients have already picked out a Behr paint color before I even arrive to give an estimate. I guess Behr is pretty big out here in Colorado. So I don't ever try to talk them out of using what they want to unless they pick Kwal or Glidden because frankly I think that both of those paints are inferior to Behr. So we are left with Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams which in this economy where half of my potential customers are ending up doing the work themselves or not at all and not even hiring a painter - are too costly.
> 
> Maybe the rest of you out there have more choices than that.


I can't believe that you have been getting away with painting for the last 5 years


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## Peakhomeservices

*Another lovely comment from Corey*



1977corey said:


> I can't believe that you have been getting away with painting for the last 5 years



Yes only 2 major complaints in 5 years and I do a lot more than just paint!


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## 1977corey

Peakhomeservices said:


> Yes only 2 major complaints in 5 years and I do a lot more than just paint!


Pardon me? i only give you crap about the whole Behr thing because ALOT of home owners, when they go shopping , they will look at ANY place that sells paint, and has a showcase in which to select colors from( walmart, home depot, lowes,etc. ) I give you crap because in the 5 years you have been painting, you should at least know that you can get a reputable paint store to MAKE any color, and still have the homeowner feel comfortable that it is still the same COLOR they chose, only a better superior product, an image you should want to SELL to your customer.


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## 1977corey

Peakhomeservices said:


> Yes only 2 major complaints in 5 years and I do a lot more than just paint!


I think its great you do alot more than just paint.
Now i'm not trying to be a jerk by asking this, but , how long have you been doing each of the things you do besides painting? And, that would be longer than your painting, right?


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## boman47k

Good luck with touching up the behr.


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## daArch

Peak,

I really think this thread has been steered away from the most important issue - preparation.

Please describe acurately how you prepped the cabs. 

thanks

-bill


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## Last Craftsman

Peakhomeservices said:


> The more I hear from all of you the more I realize it probably wasn't the brand of paint


On the contrary. It is very likely this factored in, can't say for sure without seeing the results in person.



Peakhomeservices said:


> These cabinets never should have been sprayed in the first place but should have been brushed and rolled.


People were referring to the PRIMER/FILLER. The point of brushing and rolling that step is to physically fill in the grain, something a sprayer is not very good at.

Then the cabinets could have been sanded down flush.

After that stage is complete, spraying them would be optimal.



Peakhomeservices said:


> So now I have to tell the client that.


I would always try as much as humanly possible, not to tell your client that the job needs to be done completely differently than the way you already did it.

I would suggest saying something along these lines:

#1 You will take care of the problem at no cost to them. 
#2 any reason other than you did it "wrong" the first time.



Peakhomeservices said:


> I have to do them on July 3rd when the client comes back into town. They want it done in two days


If you have to strip them, this not likely. I would not tell them you can fix the cabinets in two days.



Peakhomeservices said:


> Most of my work has been restoration work where the client already has a paint to use or they have picked it out. In three years of restoration work only about 4 clients have asked for Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams. The rest has been Kwal or Behr.


Rule #1: Professionals don't let the customer dictate what products they will be using.

Rule #2: Don't break rule #1.



Peakhomeservices said:


> Also, you all should know that the majority of my new clients have already picked out a Behr paint color before I even arrive to give an estimate.


Rule #1: Professionals use paint stores/products that can achieve perfect color matching.

Rule #2: Don't break rule #1.



Peakhomeservices said:


> we are left with Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams which in this economy where half of my potential customers are ending up doing the work themselves or not at all and not even hiring a painter - are too costly.


What is really costly is having to refinish cabinets because they weren't done right the first time. You would do well to listen to people's advice about using quality products.

*I should be charging for this information.* :yes:

----------------

Here is the dilemma as I see it.


You have layers of paint over grease:
Any where this is occurring, it is very likely the paint will fail. One coats, ten coats, it's irrelevant. 

You need to find these locations. If you are lucky it will only be on a few doors and the paint can be removed there along with the grease. Even then, you will never know for sure. If the grease is everywhere, then stripping is your best option. And if you want to give them a guarantee, stripping is your best option.


The pores in the oak are bleeding though:
This is what the stain killing primer is for, such as coverstain, or bin. These products will seal the stain and that is all, they are not designed for actually filling the grain to make the surface smooth, all though coverstain would probably do an ok job if it was applied thick enough and sanded flush.


Your top coat is of questionable stability:
If the top coat can be scratched off with a fingernail, you are in trouble. No priming over the top will fix this. Some primers may even stress the weak top coat in a way that will pull the top coat when the primer dries.

Ideally you need to strip in this situation, but there are degrees of severity. If the top coat is just a little weak, then perhaps a proper thickness of another top coat over the surface would give the coating the strength to "get by". I personally wouldn't leave cabinets in a condition where I had to wonder if the finish will survive or not, but that decision is ultimately up to you and your clients.

It is hard for me to know without seeing the cabinets in person whether they need to be stripped or not. But if you can scratch the paint of with a fingernail everywhere then definately yes. The good news is it will strip easily.

I would tell the customers if they want to be absolutely sure, then you will need more time to strip and refinish the cabinets than two days. 

Good luck.


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## brushmstr

When I come across something that I'm not familiar with, I research it to death until I become comfortable. Cabinets are easy once you find a system that gives you your results with quality and profit.
I found (years ago) a website that deals with among many things cabinet finishing. You can find answers to all your questions concerning fine finishing. From steps involved to products and equipment used. Check out Woodweb. Good luck


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## 1977corey

Last Craftsman said:


> On the contrary. It is very likely this factored in, can't say for sure without seeing the results in person.
> 
> 
> 
> People were referring to the PRIMER/FILLER. The point of brushing and rolling that step is to physically fill in the grain, something a sprayer is not very good at.
> 
> Then the cabinets could have been sanded down flush.
> 
> After that stage is complete, spraying them would be optimal.
> 
> 
> 
> I would always try as much as humanly possible, not to tell your client that the job needs to be done completely differently than the way you already did it.
> 
> I would suggest saying something along these lines:
> 
> #1 You will take care of the problem at no cost to them.
> #2 any reason other than you did it "wrong" the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> If you have to strip them, this not likely. I would not tell them you can fix the cabinets in two days.
> 
> 
> 
> Rule #1: Professionals don't let the customer dictate what products they will be using.
> 
> Rule #2: Don't break rule #1.
> 
> 
> 
> Rule #1: Professionals use paint stores/products that can achieve perfect color matching.
> 
> Rule #2: Don't break rule #1.
> 
> 
> 
> What is really costly is having to refinish cabinets because they weren't done right the first time. You would do well to listen to people's advice about using quality products.
> 
> *I should be charging for this information.* :yes:
> 
> ----------------
> 
> Here is the dilemma as I see it.
> 
> 
> You have layers of paint over grease:
> Any where this is occurring, it is very likely the paint will fail. One coats, ten coats, it's irrelevant.
> 
> You need to find these locations. If you are lucky it will only be on a few doors and the paint can be removed there along with the grease. Even then, you will never know for sure. If the grease is everywhere, then stripping is your best option. And if you want to give them a guarantee, stripping is your best option.
> 
> 
> The pores in the oak are bleeding though:
> This is what the stain killing primer is for, such as coverstain, or bin. These products will seal the stain and that is all, they are not designed for actually filling the grain to make the surface smooth, all though coverstain would probably do an ok job if it was applied thick enough and sanded flush.
> 
> 
> Your top coat is of questionable stability:
> If the top coat can be scratched off with a fingernail, you are in trouble. No priming over the top will fix this. Some primers may even stress the weak top coat in a way that will pull the top coat when the primer dries.
> 
> Ideally you need to strip in this situation, but there are degrees of severity. If the top coat is just a little weak, then perhaps a proper thickness of another top coat over the surface would give the coating the strength to "get by". I personally wouldn't leave cabinets in a condition where I had to wonder if the finish will survive or not, but that decision is ultimately up to you and your clients.
> 
> It is hard for me to know without seeing the cabinets in person whether they need to be stripped or not. But if you can scratch the paint of with a fingernail everywhere then definately yes. The good news is it will strip easily.
> 
> I would tell the customers if they want to be absolutely sure, then you will need more time to strip and refinish the cabinets than two days.
> 
> Good luck.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Dennis

Sorry About The Cabinets. I Have Painted A Few Sets Of Kitchen Cabinets Myself. Rule Of Thumb U Might As Well When U Price Them Go Ahead And Figure On Sanding Them Down From The Start.as U Know Cabinets Are About The Most Used Things In The House. There Fore. All The Dirt And Hand Oils.


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## Marty

*Marty.s Painting Service*

Dear Ruined, I agree with some of the pro,s prep when it comes to cabinets is a must. I usually de-gloss them first , then lightly sand them, use a good professional primer (oil, or alcohol,) you'll have much better results. To when in doubt always ask first then when satisfied proceed at least you'll have some type of info to go on. Wish you well on getting them re-done. Marty


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## BESMAN

interesting thread....i'll put my first post here.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Cabinets are Fixed*

Just to give you all an update. I hired a professional painter with a lot of experience with painting cabinets to repaint the cabinets. He sanded them lightly and sprayed them with Oil Based Kilz. All stains were blocked with this immediately. He attempted to use the Premium Behr Paint High Gloss paint again and all but the back of four cabinet doors looked fine and paint was melting off those. So he sanded again and top coated with a Kwal Embassy Fast Coat - Gloss. Client was extremely happy that I went out of my way to make things right at no cost and the Fast Coat gave the cabinets that shiny, glossy look the client wanted. Client payed me and my total loss on the whole job was about $50 plus I worked for about three 6 hour days at no charge. I learned a lot about paint quality and preparation, of course. I will continue to use the Behr Flat Enamel paint but I think that is the only paint they make that is worth a darn. I have gone back to buying my paint at Kwal which is what I was doing until the last year or two. Thanks again to all of you for your comments. I now have another painter that I can work with and I learned a lot from him as well. I will be referring all my exterior painting and other odd jobs - like painting cabinets - to him and he will give me a cut for the referral. So in the end, it has all turned out great!


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## Peakhomeservices

1977corey said:


> I think its great you do alot more than just paint.
> Now i'm not trying to be a jerk by asking this, but , how long have you been doing each of the things you do besides painting? And, that would be longer than your painting, right?


I have managed a crew for five years that all have their specialties. I have always done the painting, clean-up, run the business, etc... So I personally have not really done anything more than just the above but my crew does light electrical, drywall, framing, carpentry, etc....

Anyway, cabinets are fixed and you can see my post below. Thanks for all your feedback even though you are a negative one!


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## TJ Paint

Glad it worked out for you... Hiring a pro:thumbup: is always a great idea


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## Workaholic

Peakhomeservices said:


> Just to give you all an update. I hired a professional painter with a lot of experience with painting cabinets to repaint the cabinets. He sanded them lightly and sprayed them with Oil Based Kilz. All stains were blocked with this immediately. He attempted to use the Premium Behr Paint High Gloss paint again and all but the back of four cabinet doors looked fine and paint was melting off those. So he sanded again and top coated with a Kwal Embassy Fast Coat - Gloss. Client was extremely happy that I went out of my way to make things right at no cost and the Fast Coat gave the cabinets that shiny, glossy look the client wanted. Client payed me and my total loss on the whole job was about $50 plus I worked for about three 6 hour days at no charge. I learned a lot about paint quality and preparation, of course. I will continue to use the Behr Flat Enamel paint but I think that is the only paint they make that is worth a darn. I have gone back to buying my paint at Kwal which is what I was doing until the last year or two. Thanks again to all of you for your comments. I now have another painter that I can work with and I learned a lot from him as well. I will be referring all my exterior painting and other odd jobs - like painting cabinets - to him and he will give me a cut for the referral. So in the end, it has all turned out great!


Thanks for the update. i am glad that you found a professional and rather mature solution to your dilema. You learned from it as well and that is what is most important to learn from the mistakes.


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## tsunamicontract

Peakhomeservices said:


> I will continue to use the Behr Flat Enamel paint


that stuff is halfway to satin IMO, why not use someone elses eggshel?


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## wje

Good on yea man, mainly for sticking it out in this thread and taking all the heat and not running away from the situation, I am glad all you lost was a few bucks and a few hours. Live and learn.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Good Coverage*



tsunamicontract said:


> that stuff is halfway to satin IMO, why not use someone elses eggshel?


I guess I could. Good point. It has very good coverage though and is a great price and looks a lot nicer than flat.


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## tsunamicontract

Peakhomeservices said:


> I guess I could. Good point. It has very good coverage though and is a great price and looks a lot nicer than flat.


yah, it does cover pretty well for BEHR but I can't stand that BEHR smell. Instant headace.


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## painttofish

tsunamicontract said:


> yah, it does cover pretty well for BEHR but I can't stand that BEHR smell. Instant headace.



So you use lot's of behr???????:whistling2:


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## tsunamicontract

painttofish said:


> So you use lot's of behr???????:whistling2:


Haha, caught red handed! No, I used to use a lot of Behr. The flat enamel was actually pretty good for an almost satin paint. Way better than the local brand Hallman Lindsey. I can't stand the smell and try to only use aura for repaints now. I have been behr free for 576 days. (ok, I made that number up but its been a while, probably longer than that).


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## 1977corey

Peakhomeservices said:


> I have managed a crew for five years that all have their specialties. I have always done the painting, clean-up, run the business, etc... So I personally have not really done anything more than just the above but my crew does light electrical, drywall, framing, carpentry, etc....
> 
> Anyway, cabinets are fixed and you can see my post below. Thanks for all your feedback even though you are a negative one!


Sounds like you managed a crew of handymen, and not painters in general, please take no offense.
As far as electrical,drywall,framing,carpentry and what have you, keep in mind that this forum was made BY professional painting contractors FOR professional painting contractors. Good for you you were able to solve such a simple procedure and decided to hire on a professional painter to save your reputation as a decent painter.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Getting a job*



Molly said:


> Well at least you have the guts to admit you did a bad job. Respect for that. It's probably time to get a job with a real painter for a few years before you have to add a few zeros onto the amount of damage you have to make good or get sued for.
> 
> 
> _________


Thanks for the advice but since I usually make about $40 an hour right now and have only had two losses in 5 years on any job, I think I will take my chances. I have partnered with the professional painter who fixed the cabinets and am not doing any job without his professional opinion from this day forward. Much better idea than taking a job and getting paid $12/hr if I'm lucky.


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## TooledUp

Molly said:


> Well at least you have the guts to admit you did a bad job. Respect for that. It's probably time to get a job with a real painter for a few years before you have to add a few zeros onto the amount of damage you have to make good or get sued for.


That's spookily familar...



TooledUp said:


> Well at least you have the guts to admit you were out of your league. Kudos for that. It's probably time to get a job with a real painter for a few years before you have to add a few zeros onto the amount of damage you have to make good or get sued for.



:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

Edit: it's a spambot not a real person lol


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## Les Pa

For what it is worth, Oak Cabinets right. Yes you should have told the customer that the grain will have grain texture. I have a price on a kitchen right now $3100.00 for painting. The people said go ahead. I have done many oak, walnut, birch whatever. 
My procedure, Remove doors and hinges I take the doors and drawers to a cabinet shop where he sands next step most important of all WIPE THEM WITH WILBOND (LIQUID SANDING AID) Next Kilz oil primer Then 2 coats of Martin Senour oil base semi-gloss paint. Now the procedure at the house same as above only they are brushed with a good china bristle brush. These cabinets are as good as you can get like right out of the showroom. Then the doors are rehung. Sometimes we put new hardwear on them. Yes Kitchen cabinets are hard to do.
PHS I can tell you now no amount of coatings will get rid of oak grain. They really do look nice with the grain texture. Tell the customer to call me and I can tell them about the grain effect. My number is xxx and ask for Les
Its bad enough to have the problem then have guys tell you you don't know what you are doing. The life of a painting apprentice is three years.
If you have any questions call me I own a paint store. And have had painters for 45 years


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## Peakhomeservices

*Oak grain texture*



Les Pa said:


> For what it is worth, Oak Cabinets right. Yes you should have told the customer that the grain will have grain texture. I have a price on a kitchen right now $3100.00 for painting. The people said go ahead. I have done many oak, walnut, birch whatever.
> My procedure, Remove doors and hinges I take the doors and drawers to a cabinet shop where he sands next step most important of all WIPE THEM WITH WILBOND (LIQUID SANDING AID) Next Kilz oil primer Then 2 coats of Martin Senour oil base semi-gloss paint. Now the procedure at the house same as above only they are brushed with a good china bristle brush. These cabinets are as good as you can get like right out of the showroom. Then the doors are rehung. Sometimes we put new hardwear on them. Yes Kitchen cabinets are hard to do.
> PHS I can tell you now no amount of coatings will get rid of oak grain. They really do look nice with the grain texture. Tell the customer to call me and I can tell them about the grain effect. My number is xxx and ask for Les
> Its bad enough to have the problem then have guys tell you you don't know what you are doing. The life of a painting apprentice is three years.
> If you have any questions call me I own a paint store. And have had painters for 45 years


They are okay with the oak grain. It was the stains that were popping back out that they didn't like, but the oil based kilz took care of that. Thank you for your feedback.


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## Peakhomeservices

*Painting Contractors*



1977corey said:


> Sounds like you managed a crew of handymen, and not painters in general, please take no offense.
> As far as electrical,drywall,framing,carpentry and what have you, keep in mind that this forum was made BY professional painting contractors FOR professional painting contractors. Good for you you were able to solve such a simple procedure and decided to hire on a professional painter to save your reputation as a decent painter.


Are you implying that I should not be on this forum because you do not consider me a professional painter? 

That's okay because truly I am tired of being beat up on this forum. A lot of you were pretty nice about the whole thing but a lot of you weren't. It was a mistake for me to join this group and I have had a lot better response from another group of people who aren't as critical. You don't take me seriously because I happen to do more than just painting even though I have used a paintbrush almost every day for the past 5 years straight of my life. 

Anyway, farewell to all of you.


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## TooledUp

Peakhomeservices said:


> I happen to do more than just painting even though I have used a paintbrush almost every day for the past 5 years straight of my life.
> 
> Anyway, farewell to all of you.


I knew a guy who used to drive long distance for a living. He did it for many years but he would always end up getting lost and have to ask directions. It's a pity he never learned to read a map properly.


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## Bender

> I have had a lot better response from another group of people who aren't as critical.



Ahhh 
Drywallers

This thread should have been cut at the knees.


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## TooledUp

Bender said:


> Ahhh
> Drywallers


:laughing:


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## RCP

Workaholic, looks like you and I should be hitting google images!


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## TooledUp

RCP said:


> Workaholic, looks like you and I should be hitting google images!


Leave my pics alone. It's part of the 'TooledUp' branding strategy :thumbup:

Anyway, which one of you mods has my red flag? :detective:


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## daArch

TooledUp said:


> :laughing:




DAMN, I wish we could "TAG" pictures here like on face book.


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## tsunamicontract

TooledUp said:


> I knew a guy who used to drive long distance for a living. He did it for many years but he would always end up getting lost and have to ask directions. It's a pity he never learned to read a map properly.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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