# Paint a door no brush marks?



## James_lake (Sep 15, 2017)

I am fairly new to painting so thank you in advance for any help. I am painting a front door with BM Grand Entrance. I want to avoid brush marks am I better to try and roll most of it? A guy at the store said use a "mo hair roler" Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

IMO brush strokes look better than roller stipple. I believe grand entrance is another version of advance? Not sure. Anyway, if it is advance thin with a bit of water. If it is aura, thin with Benjamin Moore's latex extender. Either way, You should get good results. When doing something like that by hand, I've picked up JMay's technique of rolling on with a microfiber roller and then tipping off with a very soft bristle brush. With advance, the brushstrokes are almost undetectable. Besides, if it is a panel door, you will need to get the panels with a brush anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James_lake (Sep 15, 2017)

Many Thanks. Yes it is Benjamin Moore - Aura


----------



## 804 Paint (Jan 31, 2014)

Be generous with the extender then, not so much on the first coat but on the second. Don't exceed 8 ounces per gallon, though. And wait much longer than the one hour recoat time otherwise it will start to gum up on you. Also be sure to sand your first coat really well… Mist with water and wet sand with a wet sanding sponge...fine grit. With Aura, even with the extender you need to move fast. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RH (Sep 7, 2010)

Using an extender and a micro-fiber cover (1/4") has given me good results. Stipple is so fine as to closely simulate a spray finish.


----------



## loaded brush (Dec 27, 2007)

James_lake said:


> I am fairly new to painting so thank you in advance for any help. I am painting a front door with BM Grand Entrance. I want to avoid brush marks am I better to try and roll most of it? A guy at the store said use a "mo hair roler" Any help is greatly appreciated.


A mo-hair roller puts on mo paint than a less-hair roller.............
Couldn't resist.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*My 2 cents*



James_lake said:


> I am fairly new to painting so thank you in advance for any help. I am painting a front door with BM Grand Entrance. I want to avoid brush marks am I better to try and roll most of it? A guy at the store said use a "mo hair roler" Any help is greatly appreciated.


A description of the door would be good. A photo would be better. Also, will both interior and exterior sides be painted?

Assuming that you are painting the interior:

If the door is flat, I would use a Wooster pro/doo-z or pro/doo-z FTP in a 3/16" nap. Get it on and tip it off as quick as you can. I would cut in the upper and lower inside corners and next to the hinges first and let thoroughly dry before rolling it out. You just have to cut enough in so that the roller will get all the other areas on the door. Use a small, fine bristled brush to cut in with.

If the door is paneled, I might brush all the non-flat areas with an artists' brush (I have an artists' brush that leaves virtually no brush marks), let dry, then roll the outer areas and the flat, raised panels with a 6 1/2" x 1/4" nap mini-roller from Sherwin Williams:

https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/contractor-series-woven-mini-rollers

I would be very hesitant to try and paint a door, either flat or paneled, with Aura. I only have experience painting walls with Aura. If I were using BM, I would go with Advance as it really gives you time to play with the paint before it starts setting up. I actually rolled out a bunch of flat doors with the mini roller mentioned above and had no problems with the paint setting up. The Advance reminded me of the old days using Satin Impervo oil based, but without the unpleasant chemical high from the Impervo fumes.

Good luck,

futtyos


----------



## woodcoyote (Dec 30, 2012)

Tipping off is pretty much the only way.

At the end of the day, here's the jist. If you want it to look smooth like it was sprayed at the factory, you have to spray the door. 

Customers that want you to paint a door with a brush or roller have to live with the fact that there will be stipple and brush strokes. Put it in your contract to cover yourself from a crazy person who ends up wanting to stiff you.

Soft bristle brushes include the Purdy Syntox, and a few others. Corona has their own version and I'm sure others could chip in to give you a suggestion of which brush to use for "soft" bristle work.


----------



## SWPB (Oct 6, 2016)

Grand Entrance was a line of its own . . . within the last year, Ben Moore decided to group it in the Aura line for better marketability. Totally different beast . . .


----------



## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Also, if you can remove the door and lay it flat as you paint this helps the paint "level out" giving more of a "brush-stroke free" look to the painted door. Today's high end paints have levelers in them that lessen the appearance of heavy brush strokes. By laying the door flat, gravity is your friend allowing the levelers to do their job........


----------



## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

James_lake said:


> I am fairly new to painting so thank you in advance for any help. I am painting a front door with BM Grand Entrance. I want to avoid brush marks am I better to try and roll most of it? A guy at the store said use a "mo hair roler" Any help is greatly appreciated.


Don't use a brush!


----------



## Haris (Aug 23, 2017)

You should be able to roll 90% of the door and only use brush to paint weak spots and areas that can't be rolled. I would suggest using Advance instead of Aura, it levels out much better hiding brush and roll marks.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

woodcoyote said:


> Tipping off is pretty much the only way.
> 
> At the end of the day, here's the jist. If you want it to look smooth like it was sprayed at the factory, you have to spray the door.
> 
> ...


On the weekend I worked for one of those crazy people. The last painter did a terrible job. Not sure what happened but the door looked like she'd painted it with a rag. The customer had been obsessively calling her for almost 3 years to get her to come back and fix it. I'm pretty sure she examined her door daily just to make sure her fury didn't wane.

She'd called me many many times to talk about the door. Saturday, I went and sanded the hell out of the thing, dusted it and two coated it. Brushed and rolled with Aura. She was practically crying it looked so good.

Fast forward to Sunday morning she's calling me saying the door no longer looks perfect. I went out to look and she's pointing at one of the panels where you could see a tiny bit of brush mark. I gave her a ten minute therapy session, made her cry. Encouraged her to move on in life and get over her obsession with her door. She thanked me for the chat. I'm glad I have a minor degree in psychology.

My wife insisted I put her on my 'no longer working for you' list. I did.


----------



## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> On the weekend I worked for one of those crazy people. The last painter did a terrible job. Not sure what happened but the door looked like she'd painted it with a rag. The customer had been obsessively calling her for almost 3 years to get her to come back and fix it. I'm pretty sure she examined her door daily just to make sure her fury didn't wane.
> 
> She'd called me many many times to talk about the door. Saturday, I went and sanded the hell out of the thing, dusted it and two coated it. Brushed and rolled with Aura. She was practically crying it looked so good.
> 
> ...


You're in the wrong profession if you can change her mind like that. I hope you charged her overtime therapist rates.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

PRC said:


> You're in the wrong profession if you can change her mind like that. I hope you charged her overtime therapist rates.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


That's exactly what my wife said when I got home. When I told her what I'd said to the woman, she started weeping too. Geez. Two in one day.


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

Wildbill7145 said:


> That's exactly what my wife said when I got home. When I told her what I'd said to the woman, she started weeping too. Geez. Two in one day.


This is only the Wednesday after your little talk with the customer last Sunday and you think this is all over and done with?

futtyos


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Have many of you as professional painters actually used Grand Entrance? I have yet to talk to a painter that has even heard of it yet. Of course i am in Bfe as far as paint is concerned. I know it was developed as an answer to the FPE exterior line, but how big is that market anyway? I have never run in to a customer willing to shell out the money for FPE paints! Where are these people? Remember i sold paint for years in one of the highest priced and richest home markets in the country, and i never heard of Fine paints of Europe until i moved back to Ohio just as the local FPE dealer went under. Is there really a market for these paints?


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> On the weekend I worked for one of those crazy people. The last painter did a terrible job. Not sure what happened but the door looked like she'd painted it with a rag. The customer had been obsessively calling her for almost 3 years to get her to come back and fix it. I'm pretty sure she examined her door daily just to make sure her fury didn't wane.
> 
> She'd called me many many times to talk about the door. Saturday, I went and sanded the hell out of the thing, dusted it and two coated it. Brushed and rolled with Aura. She was practically crying it looked so good.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of the old bartender joke about the difference between a bartender and a proctologist.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

Certain indycar team based in Hilliard ohio hires a painter to re-paint the offices at their headquarters. Painter does the job and a few weeks later gets a call about the "horrible" brush marks on all the trim. Goes to look at it and it's a pretty high quality brush job. (his lead painter did the job not him). "the owner came back this weekend and saw it, and wants it to look like this....." and proceeds to show the painter the finish on the "owners" brand new Porsche. The painter tells them he can do it, but would have to take all the trim off and take it top his shop to spray it. Nope! Can't have the trim off at all! 

Painter proceeds to pull out the contract that states the job will be finished to a high level industry standard, and points out that that is exactly what they got. 

Two years later the painter still hasn't gotten paid and the "owner" has burned through at least another 3 painters trying to get his trim brushed to match the quality of the finish on his Porsche. Last I heard none of them have been paid yet.


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

PACman said:


> Certain indycar team based in Hilliard ohio hires a painter to re-paint the offices at their headquarters. Painter does the job and a few weeks later gets a call about the "horrible" brush marks on all the trim. Goes to look at it and it's a pretty high quality brush job. (his lead painter did the job not him). "the owner came back this weekend and saw it, and wants it to look like this....." and proceeds to show the painter the finish on the "owners" brand new Porsche. The painter tells them he can do it, but would have to take all the trim off and take it top his shop to spray it. Nope! Can't have the trim off at all!
> 
> Painter proceeds to pull out the contract that states the job will be finished to a high level industry standard, and points out that that is exactly what they got.
> 
> Two years later the painter still hasn't gotten paid and the "owner" has burned through at least another 3 painters trying to get his trim brushed to match the quality of the finish on his Porsche. Last I heard none of them have been paid yet.


Well, I hope the guy at least gets a lot of unexplained broken windows.


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

PACman said:


> Certain indycar team based in Hilliard ohio hires a painter to re-paint the offices at their headquarters. Painter does the job and a few weeks later gets a call about the "horrible" brush marks on all the trim. Goes to look at it and it's a pretty high quality brush job. (his lead painter did the job not him). "the owner came back this weekend and saw it, and wants it to look like this....." and proceeds to show the painter the finish on the "owners" brand new Porsche. The painter tells them he can do it, but would have to take all the trim off and take it top his shop to spray it. Nope! Can't have the trim off at all!
> 
> Painter proceeds to pull out the contract that states the job will be finished to a high level industry standard, and points out that that is exactly what they got.
> 
> Two years later the painter still hasn't gotten paid and the "owner" has burned through at least another 3 painters trying to get his trim brushed to match the quality of the finish on his Porsche. Last I heard none of them have been paid yet.


Is the owner willing to pay for that finish. Because it's not impossible.


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> Is the owner willing to pay for that finish. Because it's not impossible.


 
Really,? please explain how.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

futtyos said:


> This is only the Wednesday after your little talk with the customer last Sunday and you think this is all over and done with?
> 
> futtyos


It is for me. If she calls, I'm not answering. Or returning her call. It took me far longer to talk about her door than than it took me to prep and paint it. I didn't get paid for the first part of that equation. I'm done with it.

And at this point, I feel good about the paint job and good about the fact that I think I helped her mental state. For some reason, I still give a damn about that part of life.


----------



## lilpaintchic (Jul 9, 2014)

Wildbill7145 said:


> On the weekend I worked for one of those crazy people. The last painter did a terrible job. Not sure what happened but the door looked like she'd painted it with a rag. The customer had been obsessively calling her for almost 3 years to get her to come back and fix it. I'm pretty sure she examined her door daily just to make sure her fury didn't wane.
> 
> She'd called me many many times to talk about the door. Saturday, I went and sanded the hell out of the thing, dusted it and two coated it. Brushed and rolled with Aura. She was practically crying it looked so good.
> 
> ...


ROFLOLOLOLOL way to go Dr. Bill!


----------



## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Wildbill: Makin women cry since '71.


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

getrex said:


> Wildbill: Makin women cry since '71.


Close, very close. But I'm a child of the '60s.


----------



## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

CApainter said:


> Is the owner willing to pay for that finish. Because it's not impossible.


Well it is, but unfortunately trying to hire the cheapest painter they can find doesn't help! Stripping, puttying, sanding, and use an HVLP or a conventional spray gun would do it. Just prep it and spray it like a car body. But again, not hiring painters that are capable or willing to do it is part of the problem. It would be expensive but it could be done. The company I worked for didn't sell the paint, so i pretty much didn't offer any suggestions. In other words, they wanted such and such paint, let that paint company service their customer. I could have and would have written up a spec for them, but i know damn well they would have just taken that spec to one of the 4000 or so stores SW has and had them duplicate it. When i was with PPG this happened every day. It was a simple spec, could be carried out by the correct painter (which i knew several of), but when they just run and buy SW and give them the actual profit even though THEY couldn't actually service them.........why would i offer to even so much as make a suggestion? If i had any thought that they would use the paint brand i sold i might have done things differently, but for 7 years all i ever sold that particular painter was quart stain matches. Because SW couldn't or wouldn't do them.


----------



## paintingbydomenic (Sep 13, 2017)

Apply your first coat of primer and lightly sand with a fine sanding sponge when the primer is dry. Now you are going to apply another coat of primer, let dry and sand again. Repeat for a third time. Make sure to still apply your primer in a way where you are creating as few *brush* strokes and roller *marks* as possible.


----------



## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

No sir


----------



## CApainter (Jun 29, 2007)

chrisn said:


> Really,? please explain how.


1. Owner requests front door entrance to look like the finish on their Beamer

2. Determine exact color. 

3. They want it black like the Beamer

4. Pick up two stage automotive paint with primer at local automotive paint store

5. Construct containment, sand door, fill cracks and divits and sand again

6. Spray primer, sand, touch up divits, prime again

7. Sand lightly, remove dust, spray base coat of black with favorite conventional set up

8. Spray polyurethane clear 

9. Optional. lightly sand and spray another coat of clear

10. Collect $2,100.00


----------



## chrisn (Jul 15, 2007)

CApainter said:


> 1. Owner requests front door entrance to look like the finish on their Beamer
> 
> 2. Determine exact color.
> 
> ...


 well, I guess that MIGHT work, only I don't spray anything


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I've used car primer as a sandable base for trim before. I sprayed satin impervo on it, and it looked SWEEETTT!!..... Except for the one fish eye I would get in the middle of it that would stick out like a sore thumb.... I ended up switching to ProClassic, and it still looked sweet.

Check out this link to see some more pics of it. Im pretty damn proud. I did it all mostly by myself. http://www.luxuryhouseboats.com/boats/Custom-Yacht-47.htm


----------



## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

And as a side note, I literally cried when I saw this:


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Second thoughts*



Wildbill7145 said:


> On the weekend I worked for one of those crazy people. The last painter did a terrible job. Not sure what happened but the door looked like she'd painted it with a rag. The customer had been obsessively calling her for almost 3 years to get her to come back and fix it. I'm pretty sure she examined her door daily just to make sure her fury didn't wane.
> 
> She'd called me many many times to talk about the door. Saturday, I went and sanded the hell out of the thing, dusted it and two coated it. Brushed and rolled with Aura. She was practically crying it looked so good.
> 
> ...


After reading through the ensuing posts I am wondering if you have any photos of this door, just to see if your eye is the same as mine. 

bad joke.

Anyway, this sounds like something that one would have to view in person to be able to see any slight flaws. I wonder if the woman has other issues she is not willing to deal with and let her angst spill over into any little thing like a brush stroke or some such thing.

futtyos


----------



## futtyos (Aug 11, 2013)

*Read the fine print*



PACman said:


> Certain indycar team based in Hilliard ohio hires a painter to re-paint the offices at their headquarters. Painter does the job and a few weeks later gets a call about the "horrible" brush marks on all the trim. Goes to look at it and it's a pretty high quality brush job. (his lead painter did the job not him). "the owner came back this weekend and saw it, and wants it to look like this....." and proceeds to show the painter the finish on the "owners" brand new Porsche. The painter tells them he can do it, but would have to take all the trim off and take it top his shop to spray it. Nope! Can't have the trim off at all!
> 
> Painter proceeds to pull out the contract that states the job will be finished to a high level industry standard, and points out that that is exactly what they got.
> 
> Two years later the painter still hasn't gotten paid and the "owner" has burned through at least another 3 painters trying to get his trim brushed to match the quality of the finish on his Porsche. Last I heard none of them have been paid yet.


This is disturbing to me. I would love to read the proposal for this job. PACman, is there any way you could get a copy and redact it for privacy so we can go over the details of what was proposed?

I remember reading her about some kind of national standards regarding paint jobs....like you have to view a painted wall from 5 feet away and such. Could this standard code of finish work be included into proposals along with a link so that potential clients can read it? Might do more harm than good perhaps.

I am curious as to what kind of conversation went on when the contractor or his bidder looked at the job and asked what the client wanted.

Most of my jobs have been with people who either want a repaint or want to sell their property. For the last 2 or so years I have done work for a remodeling contractor who is very exacting in some things, but lax in others. I have gotten to the point where I find it important to find out in detail what the client wants if things are a bit more than the ordinary. I am curious as to why the conversation with the "owner" of this Indycar didn't get to the details of what he wanted the job to look at as it apparently did not get to.

Below is my redacted generic proposal for painting or any other number of things I do:

Futtyos
123 Main St
Somewhere, QV
847-456-5618
[email protected] 

SERVICE PROPOSAL

To:	John Doe 0/0/14	

Re: Work to be done at 


We hereby propose to furnish the materials and perform the labor necessary for the completion of:

Labor:

Materials: 

Total Labor & Materials for above work: 



TERMS: All material is to be as specified and the above work to be performed as proposed above in a substantial workmanlike manner for the sum of $____.00 to be paid as follows: Down-payment of 1/3 of total materials and labor ($___.00) to start work, balance due upon completion of work. 

If person responsible for payment is out of the local area and agent will be inspecting and approving final work, balance due of payment is to be left in escrow with agent for immediate disbursement to futtyos after work has been done. 

All materials remain property of futtyos until all materials and labor are paid in full.

Any alteration or deviation from above specifications involving extra costs will be executed only upon written order and will become an extra charge over and above what is stated in this Proposal. All agreements are contingent upon delays beyond our control.



Respectfully submitted by: _______________________________________ on ____/____/______

Note: This Proposal may be withdrawn by us if not accepted within 30 days.





Acceptance of Proposal

The above prices, specifications and conditions are satisfactory and are hereby accepted. Futtyos is authorized to do the work as specified. Payments will be made as outlined above. The signor below agrees to be responsible for full payment of the amount of this Proposal if accepted.



__________________________________________ ________________
Signature of person authorizing above proposal and terms. Capacity of Signor: Principle
or Agent

__________________________________________ ____/____/_______
Printed name of person authorizing above proposal and terms. Date




__________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________
Mailing address if different from worksite address Phone Number



__________________________________________________________________________
City, State and zip



__________________________________________________________________________
Email



As you can see, I have a line for a signature that authorizes the above detailed work to be done in a manner that is detailed in the proposal. I also have a security clause "All materials remain property of futtyos until all materials and labor are paid in full." that gives me the lawful right to file a UCC1 Financing (Uniform Commercial Code) financing statement against the client in the event that said client does not live up to her end of the agreement/proposal. I have never done this myself, but have been advised of it in case it becomes necessary.

Most things in life are contracts in one form or another, verbal, written, implied, unilateral, bilateral or whatever, whether we realize it or not. I hate to see people in the trades get beat up on a job AND have not legal recourse because of the way their agreement with the client was worded. Maybe because i have been beaten up pretty badly myself.

When I first started to send these proposals to potential clients, I thought that they might balk, but so far, they are signing them if they want me to do the work and sending them back to me.

jest my thoughts,

futtyos


----------



## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

futtyos said:


> After reading through the ensuing posts I am wondering if you have any photos of this door, just to see if your eye is the same as mine.
> 
> bad joke.
> 
> ...


Nah, no pics. The camera on my phone takes terrible pics. All gummed up with dust, etc. Tried cleaning it out, didn't work.

Oh, she's got issues all right. She obsesses on negatives. Over a year ago, I was doing some indoor painting for her. While I was there apparently she'd thought she'd registered for some activity around town but things got screwed up and she didn't get registered. Time line for registration had passed. For two days she went on and on about her disappointment to me and whoever else would pick up their phone.

Sad thing is she knows a really good paint job. However, the woman who painted her 3 year old home does a lot of work in new construction. GCs like her because she's incredibly cheap, but does horrible work. Doesn't sand anything. I could pretty much ruin this customers life by going around and showing her all the mistakes in her home that she hasn't already noticed. Walls that feel like 60 grit paper. Stuff that just got one coated, etc. She's noticed a bunch of things, but not all of it.


----------



## getrex (Feb 13, 2017)

Most people are oblivious to all of that. There is a subdivision near me where the builder missed a bunch of things. One of those being making sure that the doors got finished. So all of the (wood) doors that were stained never got clear coated.. one is faded to the point of needing stain. The (fiberglass) doors that were painted were done wrong and the paint is cracking. And at least one house has a metal back door that was never painted on the outside and the inside was never cut around the door hinges (HO never noticed this glaring goof). So far I have finished one and had another neighbor ask me for a bid. People just don't know what things should look like. That's why crappy painters still exist.


----------

