# Exterior stains



## RMac (Apr 11, 2015)

i was wondering if anyone has an opinion on the new acrylic exterior stains (specifically Olympic and Behr) that advertise primer and stain in one coat. We're doing a solid or semi solid black stain and the Arborcoat by Ben Moore and Cabot solids recommend an oil coat primer. The Behr and Olympic do not which is highly appealing, but I'm wondering about their longevity and peeling resistance.


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## Jmayspaint (Mar 26, 2013)

What are you going over that they're recommending oil primer? I would only consider an oil primer necessary if it was tannin rich cedar or something. The acrylics will do fine most of the time. 

I do think some manufacturers are looser on their specs than others. We al know oil works, but it's going away and we gotta deal with that sometime.


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## Epoxy Pro (Oct 7, 2012)

I think Olympic is useless. Behr stain is ok.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RMac said:


> i was wondering if anyone has an opinion on the new acrylic exterior stains (specifically Olympic and Behr) that advertise primer and stain in one coat. We're doing a solid or semi solid black stain and the Arborcoat by Ben Moore and Cabot solids recommend an oil coat primer. The Behr and Olympic do not which is highly appealing, but I'm wondering about their longevity and peeling resistance.


Jmays was spot on. The ArborCoat TDS only recommends a oil primer for "tannin rich woods". Especially with such a dark color, I don't think there would be a problem.

BTW, the color retention with ArborCoat has been nothing short of spectacular in our experience. The Gennex tints make a world of difference. Cabot isn't used very widely here and we've never used their stains, but we have used the others. Compared to ArborCoat, the other two aren't even on the radar.


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## RMac (Apr 11, 2015)

The stain is going on new red cedar, but the rep at the place that sells the Arborcoat was recommending an oil primer regardless of what type of wood it was since the solid stain is acrylic. I'm not really sure what the oil primer is supposed to do that the stain doesn't.
CDPainting, why is the Olympic useless in your opinion?


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

RMac said:


> The stain is going on new red cedar, but the rep at the place that sells the Arborcoat was recommending an oil primer regardless of what type of wood it was since the solid stain is acrylic. I'm not really sure what the oil primer is supposed to do that the stain doesn't.
> CDPainting, why is the Olympic useless in your opinion?


That sounds like a belt-and-suspender approach. I'll also admit that it's one we've always taken. We've gone over oil-based stains without primer, but we do prime new siding. Of course, here it the Northwest, that is almost always red cedar.

I had a chance to ponder this during a 4-hour flight home. I wonder if tannin bleed could be visible even on very dark stains.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

For new wood, if not factory coated with a first coat, we used to use the BM 094/366 deep base primer tinted to match and one coat of Cabot's solid acrylic over top. 

There is an exterior we have done twice as a repaint. It was a dark gray/brown color and always had been done with solid oil stain. It had a lot of tannin bleed the first time we did it so we stuck with solid oil except on one section we put solid acrylic Moorwood as a test. The last time (after 5 years) we did it, the acrylic section showed much less tannin bleed and much less fading, less cracking on e surface film, etc. so, that time we did ArborCoat on everything. 

I still tend to like oil for first coat to get the penetration, but not after that. Last time I read up on it, T1-11 siding called for two coats of acrylic stain and not oil.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> For new wood, if not factory coated with a first coat, we used to use the BM 094/366 deep base primer tinted to match and one coat of Cabot's solid acrylic over top.
> 
> There is an exterior we have done twice as a repaint. It was a dark gray/brown color and always had been done with solid oil stain. It had a lot of tannin bleed the first time we did it so we stuck with solid oil except on one section we put solid acrylic Moorwood as a test. The last time (after 5 years) we did it, the acrylic section showed much less tannin bleed and much less fading, less cracking on e surface film, etc. so, that time we did ArborCoat on everything.
> 
> I still tend to like oil for first coat to get the penetration, but not after that. Last time I read up on it, T1-11 siding called for two coats of acrylic stain and not oil.


This is what I've seen as well. It's also been our experience. I think the oils are two brittle to stand the cracking of face veneer. Those cracks and the voids in the grooves allow water penetration, leading to failure. The higher flexibility and permeability of the acrylic system makes them less prone to failure.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

the tannin rich wood thing is because water based paints can react with these tannic acids to produce dark discolorations. Doesnt affect adhesion, as far as I know.


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## PRC (Aug 28, 2014)

Gough said:


> Jmays was spot on. The ArborCoat TDS only recommends a oil primer for "tannin rich woods". Especially with such a dark color, I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> BTW, the color retention with ArborCoat has been nothing short of spectacular in our experience. The Gennex tints make a world of difference. Cabot isn't used very widely here and we've never used their stains, but we have used the others. Compared to ArborCoat, the other two aren't even on the radar.


We used 094 and 2 coats Arborcoat solid on this "barn". It's been 2 years and color retention has been better than any other exterior yellow that I've seen.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Nice job on the barn. A lot of gold and yellow I find in the BM deck do not have the "not for exterior use" mark on them but still have a yellow that is not rated for exterior use, so you need to have them switch to a different Gennex yellow in the formula and rematch.

I am thinking about switching this year from Cabots to ArborCoat. The only issue that has been holding me back is the fast dry time and concern about lap marks since we use a lot of dark colors. That would put us into almost all Benjamin Moore products for finish coats.


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## Gough (Nov 24, 2010)

DeanV said:


> Nice job on the barn. A lot of gold and yellow I find in the BM deck do not have the "not for exterior use" mark on them but still have a yellow that is not rated for exterior use, so you need to have them switch to a different Gennex yellow in the formula and rematch.
> 
> I am thinking about switching this year from Cabots to ArborCoat. The only issue that has been holding me back is the fast dry time and concern about lap marks since we use a lot of dark colors. That would put us into almost all Benjamin Moore products for finish coats.


What we found with the darker-colored ArborCoat is that the second coat eliminated the problem with lap marks.


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## RMac (Apr 11, 2015)

JourneymanBrian said:


> the tannin rich wood thing is because water based paints can react with these tannic acids to produce dark discolorations. Doesnt affect adhesion, as far as I know.


So the primer coat isn't about better adhesion with the solid acrylic stains? If that's the case, it seems like it would be unnecessary under black stain even if it is on cedar.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

depends how opaque your stain is, but yes. For adhesion purposes it is still worthwhile to prime, though. 
Especially if the wood is bare, you should reduce the absorption by priming.


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## JourneymanBrian (Mar 16, 2015)

You can prime water based


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