# cutting in



## dfoster

Whenever I put two coats on a wall, I always cut in twice. I've heard of people that only cut in once and roll two coats. I don't see how this could look all that great. If something needs two coats, wouldn't you say it all needs two coats--and not just the areas the roller can hit? Discuss.


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## Paradigmzz

I cut in twice and roll once. Pictures have frames, why can't walls? Discuss.


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## Temple

Sometimes I have to cut twice, But I can lay it on thicker with the brush. If it needs it Ill cut in again. Often depends on the color.


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## Carl

Sure, it's cheating, but most of us roll pretty tight to the corners, so I"m not sure this is really that big of a problem. If you have full color coverage with the brush with one coat, then skipping the second cut isn't the worst thing in the world.


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## Rbriggs82

I don't mess around like that. I give people what I am being paid to do, no short cuts. I'd expect the same if the roles were reversed.


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## Brian C

I cut and roll using paint poured straight from the can, then thin 15 % for second coat.


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## 1963 Sovereign

why not thin the first coat ,not the second,would thinning the second coat mess up washability and sheen ?


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## double_cut

Rbriggs82 said:


> I don't mess around like that. I give people what I am being paid to do, no short cuts. I'd expect the same if the roles were reversed.


Yes!! And how much time are you truely saving?!


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## Steve Richards

Thin both coats, and up-charge for a 3rd.


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## matt19422

So if you thin the coats won't you mess with the products durability and appearance?


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## caulktheline

He was joking


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## Steve Richards

caulktheline said:


> He was joking


Sorry, "2 coats" means 2 coats on everything.
I didn't really see anything to discuss.


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## RH

I cut twice and roll twice - just that the second time for both goes faster.


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## Steve Richards

Sometimes I like to roll once, then cut twice, then roll.

I confessed to that on CT and caught hell for it.

Y'all do it however you want...see if I care


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## caulktheline

Sometimes I cut once with a 3 inch and throw it away, roll out once and wash the cover, roll out a second time with the freshly washed-out cover and then throw it away, and then cut a second time with a 2.5 and wash it out with paint thinner.


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## robladd

Steve Richards said:


> Sometimes I like to roll once, then cut twice, then roll.
> 
> I confessed to that on CT and caught hell for it.
> 
> Y'all do it however you want...see if I care


HackMiester 101! Who cares what CT thinks


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## TERRY365PAINTER

You just need that paint with the primer in there . 
More bang for the buck I heard . 1 coat equals 2


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## Steve Richards

Steve Richards said:


> Sometimes I like to roll once, then cut twice, then roll.
> 
> I confessed to that on CT and caught hell for it.
> 
> Y'all do it however you want...see if I care





robladd said:


> HackMiester 101! Who cares what CT thinks


I'm probably the only one here that's ever taken the time to brush out between two door casings (for example) twice... and then found out a 9" roller woulda fit in there.

...or cut-in a ceiling twice, and then wish they'd have come down another 1/2 inch, because they decided to use a 3/4" nap, and they can't quite reach the cut line without touching the ceiling.

...or the reverse, and cut 5" down the wall when 2" woulda been plenty.

Rolling first takes any "guess work" out, and (for me) makes the first coat seem easier/faster/more enjoyable.

I realize it's not an accepted method... but as long as the final 2 steps on a 2-coat job are; brush followed by roll...what's the difference?

I wouldn't mind hearing cons to the method..but only from people that have tried it more than once..because "that's not how it's done" isn't a good enough reason for me.

..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


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## Rbriggs82

Sometimes I roll the first coat before cutting. If doing a couple bedrooms I'll roll them all out, cut them all, then go back around cutting two walls then rolling them. As long as the rolling is dry before cutting on the first coat I don't see a problem with it. What does it matter which way the first coat is done? It's the second coat that counts.


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## Steve Richards

yeah...now imagine a plumber and an electrician telling you that's not ok...followed by detailed instructions of the correct way...

That's CT

Sorry if I was ranting


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## Rbriggs82

Steve Richards said:


> yeah...now imagine a plumber and an electrician telling you that's not ok...followed by detailed instructions of the correct way...
> 
> That's CT
> 
> Sorry if I was ranting


Did they tell you to roll using a W pattern too? I hate that.


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## robladd

I'm use to the 2 man tag team action in commercial painting.

PVA sprayed and back rolled. Then cut, spray back roll and while moving on brush another quick coat on while your moving from wall to the next.


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## Steve Richards

robladd said:


> I'm use to the 2 man tag team action in commercial painting.
> 
> PVA sprayed and back rolled. Then cut, spray back roll and while moving on brush another quick coat on while your moving from wall to the next.


I haven't for a long time...but I may log onto CT, just to tattletale on you for that.


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## Steve Richards

..probably make some plumbers crap their pants


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## RH

Steve Richards said:


> I'm probably the only one here that's ever taken the time to brush out between two door casings (for example) twice... and then found out a 9" roller woulda fit in there.
> 
> ...or cut-in a ceiling twice, and then wish they'd have come down another 1/2 inch, because they decided to use a 3/4" nap, and they can't quite reach the cut line without touching the ceiling.
> 
> ...or the reverse, and cut 5" down the wall when 2" woulda been plenty.
> 
> Rolling first takes any "guess work" out, and (for me) makes the first coat seem easier/faster/more enjoyable.
> 
> I realize it's not an accepted method... but as long as the final 2 steps on a 2-coat job are; brush followed by roll...what's the difference?
> 
> I wouldn't mind hearing cons to the method..but only from people that have tried it more than once..because "that's not how it's done" isn't a good enough reason for me.
> 
> ..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


Well, that's certainly true for all of us here. :whistling2:


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## Steve Richards

As it should be, RH.

If and when someone comes on here and says for example..they use a 3/8 nap on everything... I kind of cringe...but I pretty much keep quiet about it.
If it's working for them, who am I to tell them it's wrong? (IMO)

There's an awful lot of "If you're not doing it this (the right) way, then you're a disgrace and should hang up your brush" attitude going around.. especially on CT, but I've seen it here too.


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## TJ Paint

I used a 3/8 roller yesterday...

I cut twice too. 

Hell if I saved too much time, the customer might have been mad and thought I bamboozled them...


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## Steve Richards

See?

I don't care TJ!

unless of course it was heavy knock-down...in which case you're a disgrace, and should hang up your brush.


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## mudbone

Icut in,roll and cut out!


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## Steve Richards

mudbone said:


> Icut in,roll and cut out!


Whenever I see your SN on a thread...I look forward to it (in kind of an odd/creepy way)

Where inna hell do you come up with this stuff?

You got some kinda 3~5 word internet-reply book?


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## chrisn

Steve Richards said:


> I'm probably the only one here that's ever taken the time to brush out between two door casings (for example) twice... and then found out a 9" roller woulda fit in there.
> 
> ...or cut-in a ceiling twice, and then wish they'd have come down another 1/2 inch, because they decided to use a 3/4" nap, and they can't quite reach the cut line without touching the ceiling.
> 
> ...or the reverse, and cut 5" down the wall when 2" woulda been plenty.
> 
> Rolling first takes any "guess work" out, and (for me) makes the first coat seem easier/faster/more enjoyable.
> 
> I realize it's not an accepted method... but as long as the final 2 steps on a 2-coat job are; brush followed by roll...what's the difference?
> 
> I wouldn't mind hearing cons to the method..but only from people that have tried it more than once..because "that's not how it's done" isn't a good enough reason for me.
> 
> ..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


 
no you are not


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## chrisn

I don't think I have ever used a 3/8 cover


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## BrushJockey

Roll , cut twice, roll. particularly when going over a flat with more- matte/ egg. Makes it so much easier to cut fast. And with Gennex paints- perfect!


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## wje

Steve Richards said:


> I'm probably the only one here that's ever taken the time to brush out between two door casings (for example) twice... and then found out a 9" roller woulda fit in there.
> 
> ...or cut-in a ceiling twice, and then wish they'd have come down another 1/2 inch, because they decided to use a 3/4" nap, and they can't quite reach the cut line without touching the ceiling.
> 
> ...or the reverse, and cut 5" down the wall when 2" woulda been plenty.
> 
> Rolling first takes any "guess work" out, and (for me) makes the first coat seem easier/faster/more enjoyable.
> 
> I realize it's not an accepted method... but as long as the final 2 steps on a 2-coat job are; brush followed by roll...what's the difference?
> 
> I wouldn't mind hearing cons to the method..but only from people that have tried it more than once..because "that's not how it's done" isn't a good enough reason for me.
> 
> ..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


That is how we prime. You can see exactly where you need to brush and dont waste time being generous thinking your roller might not get it. The only sure things we cut in first when priming are recepticles and light switches. Everything else is roller work and we brush it after. It saves us a ton of time, as we are some of the few remaining painters who brush and roll all 3 coats, no spraying.


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## Zoomer

If you actually consider less than 2 cuts and 2 rolls are'nt you just cheating yourself? What about the repeat business consideration? Bid it for 2, tell customer why, and do it.


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## Paradigmzz

Paradigmzz said:


> I cut in twice and roll once. Pictures have frames, why can't walls? Discuss.


I guess this quote was funnier in my own mind.


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## Paint and Hammer

Paradigmzz said:


> I guess this quote was funnier in my own mind.


There ya go man, I went back and thanked ya.


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## Steve Richards

me too

Sometimes I'm so busy thinking of what I'm gonna say, I forget the people that inspired me.


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## Paint and Hammer

Steve Richards said:


> ..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


....I for one was on the edge of my seat....thanks Steve.


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## mudbone

Paradigmzz said:


> I guess this quote was funnier in my own mind.


 In your own mind i bet there are plenty of empty rooms!


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## Steve Richards

Careful, Mud.

Para can figure your ass out and post 5 paragraphs about you, your problems, and your inner most secrets.

I seen it myself.


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## jack pauhl

dfoster said:


> Whenever I put two coats on a wall, I always cut in twice. I've heard of people that only cut in once and roll two coats. I don't see how this could look all that great. If something needs two coats, wouldn't you say it all needs two coats--and not just the areas the roller can hit? Discuss.


This all comes down to product capabilities and skills. I cut once, roll twice in most situations. My cut is set at a heavy mil which is more than twice what most guys cut at. It's feathered to the wall. Them I roll 1/4" or 1/2" to the casing and the base is rolled tight to the tape. 

This system works great and it saves man hours you couldn't possibly calculate. For example. I cut a recent large house for two days. Once. With any other product I would have cut it twice---another two days. It's product, systems and skills. Let's say I charge $75 per hour times 2 days. Enough said.


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## RH

Steve Richards said:


> Careful, Mud.
> 
> Para can figure your ass out and post 5 paragraphs about you, your problems, and your inner most secrets.
> 
> I seen it myself.


Though in this case Para may wish to be extra cautious that it doesn't backfire. :wacko: 

(jk mb)


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Steve Richards said:


> I'm probably the only one here that's ever taken the time to brush out between two door casings (for example) twice... and then found out a 9" roller woulda fit in there.
> 
> ...or cut-in a ceiling twice, and then wish they'd have come down another 1/2 inch, because they decided to use a 3/4" nap, and they can't quite reach the cut line without touching the ceiling.
> 
> ...or the reverse, and cut 5" down the wall when 2" woulda been plenty.
> 
> Rolling first takes any "guess work" out, and (for me) makes the first coat seem easier/faster/more enjoyable.
> 
> I realize it's not an accepted method... but as long as the final 2 steps on a 2-coat job are; brush followed by roll...what's the difference?
> 
> I wouldn't mind hearing cons to the method..but only from people that have tried it more than once..because "that's not how it's done" isn't a good enough reason for me.
> 
> ..and why would anyone on the internet give a crap how I paint stuff anyhow?


I have done this more than once with colors that are dark bases . But it throws old school painters 
Off track . They think your doing something wrong . I still carry a brush for painting around plates and switches and stuff .


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## Delta Painting

I cut once with a non union brush then roll out that surface with a non union cover. Then start all over with a non union hand arms and legs...


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## Steve Richards

TERRY365PAINTER said:


> . But it throws old school painters Off track . They think your doing something wrong .


So do plumbers and electricians.

..and HO's

(I do it "the right way" when I'm being watched)


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## TJ Paint

Every once in awhile a thread like this comes along and I find myself wondering if I'm missing something.

After a couple days brainstorming over the matter at hand, and perhaps in part because it's Friday, I decided that I'm ok.


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## Steve Richards

You are definitely ok, TJ

..and if I ever paint with you, I plan to cut twice first.


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## playedout6

jack pauhl said:


> This all comes down to product capabilities and skills. I cut once, roll twice in most situations. My cut is set at a heavy mil which is more than twice what most guys cut at. It's feathered to the wall. Them I roll 1/4" or 1/2" to the casing and the base is rolled tight to the tape.
> 
> This system works great and it saves man hours you couldn't possibly calculate. For example. I cut a recent large house for two days. Once. With any other product I would have cut it twice---another two days. It's product, systems and skills. Let's say I charge $75 per hour times 2 days. Enough said.



" in most situations "....I really have to doubt that claim . I have cut for 30 years and I know that is not true . It takes more time to lay it on heavier and not having a sag in it versus the extra 2 minutes to do 6 sides on a door frame or 4 sides on a window frame . It also takes more time to roll within 1/4 an inch versus 3/4 on a frame that has the second cut without ever having a boo boo and making contact with the frame . If you actually can get away with this claim " in most situations "...then you must have the easiest paint jobs mankind has ever known ! You must only take on jobs that never change colors ????:whistling2:


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## jack pauhl

playedout6 said:


> " in most situations "....I really have to doubt that claim . I have cut for 30 years and I know that is not true . It takes more time to lay it on heavier and not having a sag in it versus the extra 2 minutes to do 6 sides on a door frame or 4 sides on a window frame . It also takes more time to roll within 1/4 an inch versus 3/4 on a frame that has the second cut without ever having a boo boo and making contact with the frame . If you actually can get away with this claim " in most situations "...then you must have the easiest paint jobs mankind has ever known ! You must only take on jobs that never change colors ????:whistling2:


You painting for 30 years leaves you the most likely not to believe it... I work with a guy who has 30 years and he can't do it either but he watches me do it. 

The heavier the film the faster the cut. Have you seen any of my cut videos? They are all laid heavy for glide. If you attached a button on the endcap of a nine and bevel the cover back---you can roll fast and hard against anything and do it blind. 

The house I just came off had 8 colors, the house this week has 12. The deeper the color the better the results. I use Behr paints and that is the only brand I can make that claim with. I constantly post pics of various colors on my +. They are almost always color over white semigloss too which should make my claims even harder to believe, that's why I post them.


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## Rbriggs82

Can u post a link to these vids? That is something I must see.


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## Paradigmzz

researchhound said:


> Though in this case Para may wish to be extra cautious that it doesn't backfire. :wacko:
> 
> (jk mb)


Mud ain't no dud.


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## Paradigmzz

Just spent the last half hour looking for cut in videos. I can't seem to find them, Jack. I don't doubt you, I just have not had the same experience. I would like to see long solid cuts in real time. Make me a believer! I'm up for learning something new. You have a weekly rate? I'm dam near tempted to hire you out and fly you down and check out what you have to offer, ill put together a project if you are interested.


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## Rbriggs82

I just went back and re-read his post, I missed where he said that he's using tape. I guess anyone can load up a brush and slop it along tape super heavy. I'd be more interested to see a video of the trim when he's removing the tape (before he cleans it for the video.)

Tape + Behr = ?


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Tape + Behr = $$$$$$$


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## TERRY365PAINTER

+ the Picasso brush + Behr + $ = more time off .


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## Rbriggs82

Picasso brushes and $ I do like.


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Kelly Moore works great as well , but I have tried 
All the so called best paints out there . Bm , Sw 
Ppg , for interior I will stick with Behr unless they want a zero voc or something . Regal is good but for the money it's not worth it . When I have to paint something 3 times to cover . 
It's money out of my pocket . If it didn't work I wouldnt be using it. Period ! I can't get it to lay off like jacks talking about either , but most times 
I am running a mini right behind it. So bam 2 tight 
Coats . Usually over a previous 1 roll coat . I do it both ways . Cut , roll , and finish roll .. The regular 
Way or roll let dry then cut mini roll, and finish roll .


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Whats the surface textured walls or smooth walls? Cause Texas everything is knock down !!
The cuts on knock down suck!! Sanding helps !!
A lot caulking etc . But most cases it needs 2 coats .


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## jack pauhl

Rbriggs82 said:


> I don't mess around like that. I give people what I am being paid to do, no short cuts. I'd expect the same if the roles were reversed.


Is it really a short cut or is it achieving the same, but more often better result faster? Of course its better, its less fooled around with.

I like how this board swings the moment old mainstream methods are challenged. And how all of a sudden certain things are minimized or not important. My schedule doesn't allow for unnecessary BS like spending 2 extra days re-cutting a house that doesnt need it. I'm 2 days on to the next job faster. And I certainly dont rob customers like Steve implies doing. That right there is BS.

I work with a painter with 30 years, I'll quote him, "I give them what they pay me to do". That thinking is costing HIM money.


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## jack pauhl

Rbriggs82 said:


> I just went back and re-read his post, I missed where he said that he's using tape. I guess anyone can load up a brush and slop it along tape super heavy. I'd be more interested to see a video of the trim when he's removing the tape (before he cleans it for the video.)
> 
> Tape + Behr = ?


I cant possibly pile every detail into every post. I tape base only. Everything else is cut freehand. The only reason tape in on the base is to roll tight over the entire cut.


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## jack pauhl

TERRY365PAINTER said:


> Whats the surface textured walls or smooth walls? Cause Texas everything is knock down !!
> The cuts on knock down suck!! Sanding helps !!
> A lot caulking etc . But most cases it needs 2 coats .


All my stuff is level 5 smooth. You guys with textures got it made. Im not sure anything important with finishing smooth applies with textures, not methods, not paint products or the systems. You kind of have it easy in comparison.


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## Steve Richards

jack pauhl said:


> And I certainly dont rob customers like Steve implies doing. That right there is BS.


I see myself more like Robin Hood.

Taking from the rich and giving to the poor (which of course would be me)


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## mudbone

jack pauhl said:


> All my stuff is level 5 smooth. You guys with textures got it made. Im not sure anything important with finishing smooth applies with textures, not methods, not paint products or the systems. You kind of have it easy in comparison.


 You even talk smooth Jack!


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## Rbriggs82

jack pauhl said:


> You painting for 30 years leaves you the most likely not to believe it... I work with a guy who has 30 years and he can't do it either but he watches me do it.
> 
> The heavier the film the faster the cut. Have you seen any of my cut videos? They are all laid heavy for glide. If you attached a button on the endcap of a nine and bevel the cover back---you can roll fast and hard against anything and do it blind.
> 
> The house I just came off had 8 colors, the house this week has 12. The deeper the color the better the results. I use Behr paints and that is the only brand I can make that claim with. I constantly post pics of various colors on my +. They are almost always color over white semigloss too which should make my claims even harder to believe, that's why I post them.


I'm still waiting on the links for those cut vids. Maybe you can make a believer out of me.


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## Steve Richards

JP... I like you fine and all...and I even believe your claims.

But if you're charging clients for 2 coats and then only cutting once, because you're able to "lay it heavy"... I don't see how that explanation would fly with most HOs or GCs.

Does it usually?


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## Steve Richards

To elaborate..while hoping it doesn't sound like a brag...

I'm familiar enough with the products I use, that I'm very confident I could brush AND roll a single coat on, being able to stay just below the "sag threshold", and get most colors to cover.

But in my mind (and most certainly in the customers eyes) I still only gave it one coat.

..and the client's sure gonna balk at paying for 2

(if they caught on)

I guess I could say "well, I put it on twice as heavy as most painters...so I gave it both coats at once".


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## HJ61

It's funny how people get stuck on one way and think it's the only way. I have employees who painted for a few years cut roll cut roll. Then I tell them to roll cut cut roll. They ask why? I say it's faster and less work/fatigue for brushwork. Great! They try it and it's faster. Then after a weekend off they are cutting in first again. Doh!


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## caulktheline

You're a good cut man, Jack.





I had to dig through a bunch of videos of you doing 6 passes on a 12 inch horizontal board before I found this one (still can't seem to find the El Dorado of you doing 7 foot single passes with a 2.5). You have good technique and the rate of production no doubt increases your hourly take-in.


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## Steve Richards

HJ61 said:


> It's funny how people get stuck on one way and think it's the only way. I have employees who painted for a few years cut roll cut roll. Then I tell them to roll cut cut roll. They ask why? I say it's faster and less work/fatigue for brushwork. Great! They try it and it's faster. Then after a weekend off they are cutting in first again. Doh!


Why is it most people think there's more than one way to skin a cat, but there's only one way to paint?


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## Steve Richards

No offence to the cat owners here.

Don't turn me in to PITA

I've never skinned a cat, nor do I intend to anytime soon.


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## caulktheline

Steve Richards said:


> No offence to the cat owners here.
> 
> Don't turn me in to PITA
> 
> I've never skinned a cat, nor do I intend to anytime soon.


You have to cut, then roll.


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## Steve Richards

^
That's sick. I hope someone turns yo ass in.

Alabama eh?

*not surprised*


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## Steve Richards

No offence to any other members or MODS that may reside in the great state of AL.


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## Paradigmzz

jack pauhl said:


> All my stuff is level 5 smooth. You guys with textures got it made. Im not sure anything important with finishing smooth applies with textures, not methods, not paint products or the systems. You kind of have it easy in comparison.


We got to know textures and replication, so it is a double edged sword. And texture to trim can be narly. Making a straight line out of craters is harder than you think.


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## TERRY365PAINTER

Paradigmzz said:


> We got to know textures and replication, so it is a double edged sword. And texture to trim can be narly. Making a straight line out of craters is harder than you think.


Knock down yep !!!
Your cut is going great then bamm
Out comes a big chuck of texture in your way . 
Throws of the Che . 
Bullnose corners been doing the tape and clear caulk method works great .


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## RH

jack pauhl said:


> All my stuff is level 5 smooth. You guys with textures got it made. Im not sure anything important with finishing smooth applies with textures, not methods, not paint products or the systems. You kind of have it easy in comparison.


Since we have very little smooth stuff out here (usually found in houses from the early 60's back) I would tend to agree with your statement. With textured walls it's generally easier to avoid flashing, lap marks, or banding. 

However, when you have one fairly heavy texture on the ceiling (usually a knockdown), and another on the wall (say orange peel), getting a clean and even looking cut line is more challenging. I've done enough smooth work to know that it typically takes a fraction of the time to cut when you have two smooth surfaces converging. 

It's an art form to make textured cut lines _look_ straight and crisp when they very often aren't even close to being so. Occasionally you come across a texture job where the mud man put in a nice cut line when he did the texturing - but it's pretty rare. Creating sharp cuts at the ends of walls when doing accent colors can also be very time consuming and must be factored in when doing bids.

Also, small pin point holidays tend to occur more frequently when painting heavier textures - especially when applying darker colors over light. The glare off the wet paint can often prevent you from seeing them until it's dried. For that reason I most often use a 3/4" nap cover and "work it in" on my passes.

Given my choice, I'd much rather paint textured finishes over smooth any day. But they do present their own unique set of challenges that smooth surfaces don't.


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## TJ Paint

caulktheline said:


> You're a good cut man, Jack.
> HOW TO: Load a Paint Brush for Pre-Cut Method - YouTube
> 
> I had to dig through a bunch of videos of you doing 6 passes on a 12 inch horizontal board before I found this one (still can't seem to find the El Dorado of you doing 7 foot single passes with a 2.5). You have good technique and the rate of production no doubt increases your hourly take-in.


Looks like a first coat is already on there. 

I think we all know that a second coat cut in things go pretty fast...


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## Paradigmzz

TJ Paint said:


> Looks like a first coat is already on there.
> 
> I think we all know that a second coat cut in things go pretty fast...


That's video says it's by theSHCS, not jack pauhl btw...


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## 1963 Sovereign

Paradigmzz said:


> That's video says it's by theSHCS, not jack pauhl btw...


 that is jack,I recognize the voice from other videos.


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## vermontpainter

The schs is jack, but then, there is no jack, it's a fictional persona (brand) that Brian created to house all of the claims that are intended to be substantiated by the videos that often amount to a bunch of yummy foreplay, but little consumation. I believe in the Easter bunny, santa claus and Jp equally. The dude is a good painter and I wish it was enough to give him a break as such, but when the claims keep coming in with questionable proof, it becomes all that is a good cartoon character. Those of us who have been on pt for the past few years recall the threads about no spatter ceilings and tuxedos, and rolling out 2000sf/hr with no cut. It's old news, it is what it is. Brian is a good dude. Jp is an alter ego. But I do think there is some value to it, it gives some segment of the industry something to believe in that is far better than nothing or the status quo. I don't think Brian is looking to be Jesus, and he probably won't be, anymore than anyone else will be. Much of the paint industry is entertainment, including paint talk.


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## Paradigmzz

vermontpainter said:


> The schs is jack, but then, there is no jack, it's a fictional persona (brand) that Brian created to house all of the claims that are intended to be substantiated by the videos that often amount to a bunch of yummy foreplay, but little consumation. I believe in the Easter bunny, santa claus and Jp equally. The dude is a good painter and I wish it was enough to give him a break as such, but when the claims keep coming in with questionable proof, it becomes all that is a good cartoon character. Those of us who have been on pt for the past few years recall the threads about no spatter ceilings and tuxedos, and rolling out 2000sf/hr with no cut. It's old news, it is what it is. Brian is a good dude. Jp is an alter ego. But I do think there is some value to it, it gives some segment of the industry something to believe in that is far better than nothing or the status quo. I don't think Brian is looking to be Jesus, and he probably won't be, anymore than anyone else will be. Much of the paint industry is entertainment, including paint talk.


I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If jp wants to come consult/ paint this winter in his downtime, ill book an extra job to give his systems a crack. The offers on the table. I'm willing to loose money on a job to see the truth.


----------



## vermontpainter

Paradigmzz said:


> I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If jp wants to come consult/ paint this winter in his downtime, ill book an extra job to give his systems a crack. The offers on the table. I'm willing to loose money on a job to see the truth.


Thats a cool offer. 

In my opinion, from what I have observed in the past few years the dude is a competent painter with a contrarian approach. Any of us who are any good at paint contracting are constantly injecting a bit of chaos into the status quo and tweaking on conventional wisdom. 

Where it gets to be a problem is, as has been posted in this thread, when anyone is convinced that there is just one route to efficiency, and it is there own. 

I have hired and fired enough 20 yr journeyman painters with strong beliefs in the past 10 years to know what that looks like on site. If your crew is a disaster and circling the drain, then a Messiah will be a healthy lifeline. Otherwise, it can be a tremendous waste of time to break someone of bad habits and inability to fit and improve an already healthy crew dynamic.


----------



## Paradigmzz

vermontpainter said:


> Thats a cool offer.
> 
> In my opinion, from what I have observed in the past few years the dude is a competent painter with a contrarian approach. Any of us who are any good at paint contracting are constantly injecting a bit of chaos into the status quo and tweaking on conventional wisdom.
> 
> Where it gets to be a problem is, as has been posted in this thread, when anyone is convinced that there is just one route to efficiency, and it is there own.
> 
> I have hired and fired enough 20 yr journeyman painters with strong beliefs in the past 10 years to know what that looks like on site. If your crew is a disaster and circling the drain, then a Messiah will be a healthy lifeline. Otherwise, it can be a tremendous waste of time to break someone of bad habits and inability to fit and improve an already healthy crew dynamic.


Fair enough. If I didn't have young kids, I would definitely talk to a few on here and go work for a week or two for free just to glean a little knowledge. 

Heck, there is a painter in my own town I would die to work for to pick up new approaches. His work is so far superior to anyone i have ever seen. We are too close in proximity for that to ever fly though 


Got to get to a wedding.


----------



## vermontpainter

Paradigmzz said:


> Fair enough. If I didn't have young kids, I would definitely talk to a few on here and go work for a week or two for free just to glean a little knowledge.
> 
> Heck, there is a painter in my own town I would die to work for to pick up new approaches. His work is so far superior to anyone in have ever seen. We are too close in proximity for that to ever fly though


Well, in a perfect world, paint talk should fill some of that void, but not alot gets discussed here about the nuts and bolts of paint contracting anymore. It used to, but that stopped in about '09. Since then, its been kind of extremist. Either ridiculous, secret, unsupported claims, or total off topic banter. As above, both are entertaining, but not entirely pertinent to paint contracting. 

It is possible, though, to network with other high achieving paint contractors in your own market. I do it weekly. As long as everyone understands that you are not competing, and even if you are at least you can agree on equal footing, you can actually help each other and in small steps improve your local market a little.


----------



## TJ Paint

So, do you guys use tape to cut in or...


----------



## jack pauhl

Steve Richards said:


> JP... I like you fine and all...and I even believe your claims.
> 
> But if you're charging clients for 2 coats and then only cutting once, because you're able to "lay it heavy"... I don't see how that explanation would fly with most HOs or GCs.
> 
> Does it usually?


When hired to do a job, you get the best job possible. I make no claims about how that will happen and how many coats. Its just done right and I am thankful to have a client base like that. I don't find myself in situations where I need to explain coats. 

clipped this from my +

"They get what they pay for"

Go half-ass a job and time it. Do your blow-n-go and lets say you get one thousand bucks to do it.

Now take that exact same job, in the same amount of time and do top quality for the same price. No way right? Sure there is.

So now what exactly are they paying for?

My systems are designed to do just that, so efficient by design they are often faster than blow-n-go. AND, they get quality products, not some cheap stuff or cheap paint disguised with a ridiculous price tag.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> The schs is jack, but then, there is no jack, it's a fictional persona (brand) that Brian created to house all of the claims that are intended to be substantiated by the videos that often amount to a bunch of yummy foreplay, but little consumation. I believe in the Easter bunny, santa claus and Jp equally. The dude is a good painter and I wish it was enough to give him a break as such, but when the claims keep coming in with questionable proof, it becomes all that is a good cartoon character. Those of us who have been on pt for the past few years recall the threads about no spatter ceilings and tuxedos, and rolling out 2000sf/hr with no cut. It's old news, it is what it is. Brian is a good dude. Jp is an alter ego. But I do think there is some value to it, it gives some segment of the industry something to believe in that is far better than nothing or the status quo. I don't think Brian is looking to be Jesus, and he probably won't be, anymore than anyone else will be. Much of the paint industry is entertainment, including paint talk.


Fly yourself out Scott... you of all people should. We can then go through each claim one by one. There are 26 reasons behind JP, you didn't mention one of them.


----------



## jack pauhl

The value of the systems become more and more valuable for each time I hear someone challenge the claims. You question why some of it has a shroud of secrecy? It was enough to delete over 800 posts last month from the site and +. just sayin


----------



## mudbone

1963 Sovereign said:


> that is jack,I recognize the voice from other videos.


 That's a fact Jack!:yes:


----------



## mudbone

jack pauhl said:


> When hired to do a job, you get the best job possible. I make no claims about how that will happen and how many coats. Its just done right and I am thankful to have a client base like that. I don't find myself in situations where I need to explain coats.
> 
> clipped this from my +
> 
> "They get what they pay for"
> 
> Go half-ass a job and time it. Do your blow-n-go and lets say you get one thousand bucks to do it.
> 
> Now take that exact same job, in the same amount of time and do top quality for the same price. No way right? Sure there is.
> 
> So now what exactly are they paying for?
> 
> My systems are designed to do just that, so efficient by design they are often faster than blow-n-go. AND, they get quality products, not some cheap stuff or cheap paint disguised with a ridiculous price tag.


 Glad you got that out of your system!


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> The schs is jack, but then, there is no jack, it's a fictional persona (brand) that Brian created to house all of the claims that are intended to be substantiated by the videos that often amount to a bunch of yummy foreplay, but little consumation.


Sounds like you are having trouble reaching the same results I post about. Surely you wouldn't make those statements without trying various things first. 

If you and I each had the same components and products laid out in front of us like a 12" sample board and you and I were getting different results.... what might be your best conclusion as to why that is?


----------



## chrisn

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'm still waiting on the links for those cut vids. Maybe you can make a believer out of me.


 
don't bet you're retirement on it


----------



## chrisn

Steve Richards said:


> No offence to the cat owners here.
> 
> Don't turn me in to PITA
> 
> I've never skinned a cat, nor do I intend to anytime soon.


 
I have skinned , deer, muskrats, fox, and raccoons, but never a cat:whistling2:


----------



## jack pauhl

When and if Scott ever flies out---I'm going to video tape him getting cottage cheese to level on a 12" sample board. Well maybe not cottage cheese but BM Advance, SI 314, ProClassic, Emerald, ULTRA, etc. so he can back up that claim he made on his blog that any monkey can do that. 

Scott if you cant do it then would you at least wear a monkey suit and let me get a photo for my blog?


----------



## 1963 Sovereign

PT is like a pot luck dinner, you take what you want and pass on the nasty stuff,,, so if jp uses behr and loves it, who am I to call him a bad painter because of that.. I have gleamed a nice bit of knowledge from him so far, no problem at all,


----------



## vermontpainter

Rbriggs82 said:


> I'm still waiting on the links for those cut vids. Maybe you can make a believer out of me.


Brian

Start here, if you want to become more real.


----------



## wje

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d9lV6w7lE0w

That is a cutting in example, not the fastest, longest, thickest cut I have ever seen by any means, but who am I to judge.


----------



## 1963 Sovereign

pretty fast..pretty straight, faster then I care to cut in


----------



## Steve Richards

jack pauhl said:


> When hired to do a job, you get the best job possible. I make no claims about how that will happen and how many coats. Its just done right and I am thankful to have a client base like that. I don't find myself in situations where I need to explain coats.


I read that twice.

..but I refuse to be a piler-on'er

Yes, I'll bet you're indeed thankful for a client base like that.


----------



## CApainter

A minute and a half youtube video of speed cutting doesn't impress me as much as being on a job site for eight hours with a competent contractor that understands job management, sequencing, and logistics. In other words, pace, endurance, and consistency are more important to me then speed.


----------



## Steve Richards

jack pauhl said:


> When hired to do a job, you get the best job possible. I make no claims about how that will happen and how many coats. Its just done right and I am thankful to have a client base like that. I don't find myself in situations where I need to explain coats.


HO: Thank you for the estimate Mr. Paul. So does this price include two coats?

JP: You will receive the best job possible.

HO: Yes I'm sure you'll do a nice job, but I was asking if you'll put more than one coat of paint on.

JP: Number of coats will not be discussed. You will receive the best job possible.

HO: Oh, I see. Can you tell me, does the price include covering my furniture and filling nail holes?

JP: Prep work will not be discussed. You will receive the best job possible.

:thumbsup:


----------



## playedout6

Deleted by poster .


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Brian
> 
> Start here, if you want to become more real.


Can you explain to me what the problem is with heading over to the only two places I have videos hosted---one of which is linked in my sig and watching the videos? 

Here is an old one with the 2.5" Alpha. The clip only shows half the casing because as you can see, even at half height you can barely make it out. You can however slow a video down under settings. 

There is also a video at full casing height but the only thing you can make out is the wetness of the paint on the wall. 

Another video demonstrates a 5' cut at the ceiling line. 

Another video demonstrates a cut against a stained casing with the BM 2.5" 65125 which is by far thinner and holds much less than a Picasso, nonetheless it covers 5' in the video for viewing up close. 

Also worth mentioning is that these videos are with flat wall paint. I cut with Picasso's today which carry loads further than the Alpha and the 65125.

So if any of you guys cant make cuts like seen in those videos then lets figure out why that is so we can keep it real like Scott would like. Can you make those cuts Scott? 5', 6' or 7' runs with a single load? It doesnt matter how long the cut is, they all come out to about 1 foot per second.


----------



## CApainter

Unfortunately, speed is priority in contracting, and I believe too many people get burned out because of it. It seems to me that "systems", in theory, are great as far as logistics are concerned. But relying on a painting system to produce the maximum quality in the least amount of time, doesn't take into consideration the uncertain sustainability of human physiology, and thus falls short of proving it's effectiveness in real world situations where one is applying coatings day after day.


----------



## wje

jack pauhl said:


> Can you explain to me what the problem is with heading over to the only two places I have videos hosted---one of which is linked in my sig and watching the videos?
> 
> Here is an old one with the 2.5" Alpha. The clip only shows half the casing because as you can see, even at half height you can barely make it out. You can however slow a video down under settings.
> 
> There is also a video at full casing height but the only thing you can make out is the wetness of the paint on the wall.
> 
> Another video demonstrates a 5' cut at the ceiling line.
> 
> Another video demonstrates a cut against a stained casing with the BM 2.5" 65125 which is by far thinner and holds much less than a Picasso, nonetheless it covers 5' in the video for viewing up close.
> 
> Also worth mentioning is that these videos are with flat wall paint. I cut with Picasso's today which carry loads further than the Alpha and the 65125.
> 
> So if any of you guys cant make cuts like seen in those videos then lets figure out why that is so we can keep it real like Scott would like. Can you make those cuts Scott? 5', 6' or 7' runs with a single load? It doesnt matter how long the cut is, they all come out to about 1 foot per second.
> 
> Cutting In with the Wooster Alpha 2 1/2" brush - YouTube


Unfortunately this backs nothing up. You are claiming to have the one coat coverage, and all of these videos are the second coats. and one of the videos you arent cutting in to anything tight, you are just slinging the brush down to the ground. Am I supposed to applaud that?

I have seen most of your videos, and your lines and everything look really nice, just stop saying you can cover them so fast, with one coat. If they really do bring your tripod to work Tuesday and shoot yourself painting a complete room, 2 coats rolled, one cut and 4'-7' cuts covering perfectly.

Lastly, what are the 26 reasons you created the alter ego JP? Sorry if I missed that episode. I should have PVR it.


----------



## wje

Steve Richards said:


> HO: Thank you for the estimate Mr. Paul. So does this price include two coats?
> 
> JP: You will receive the best job possible.
> 
> HO: Yes I'm sure you'll do a nice job, but I was asking if you'll put more than one coat of paint on.
> 
> JP: Number of coats will not be discussed. You will receive the best job possible.
> 
> HO: Oh, I see. Can you tell me, does the price include covering my furniture and filling nail holes?
> 
> JP: Prep work will not be discussed. You will receive the best job possible.
> 
> :thumbsup:


I thanked your post, but I thought I would take the time to thank you in person.
Thank you.


----------



## jack pauhl

CApainter said:


> Unfortunately, speed is priority in contracting, and I believe too many people get burned out because of it. It seems to me that "systems", in theory, are great as far as logistics are concerned. But relying on a painting system to produce the maximum quality in the least amount of time, doesn't take into consideration the uncertain sustainability of human physiology, and thus falls short of proving it's effectiveness in real world situations where one is applying coatings day after day.


Does it look like I'm rushing? I make a cut like seen in any of those videos and carry the connecting cuts as I walk a room. There is no rush, its an efficient cut and that obviously has nothing to do with rushing. I understand what your saying tho. Guys who rush have to make up for lack of being efficient.


----------



## jack pauhl

wje said:


> Unfortunately this backs nothing up. You are claiming to have the one coat coverage, and all of these videos are the second coats. and one of the videos you arent cutting in to anything tight, you are just slinging the brush down to the ground. Am I supposed to applaud that?
> 
> I have seen most of your videos, and your lines and everything look really nice, just stop saying you can cover them so fast, with one coat. If they really do bring your tripod to work Tuesday and shoot yourself painting a complete room, 2 coats rolled, one cut and 4'-7' cuts covering perfectly.
> 
> Lastly, what are the 26 reasons you created the alter ego JP? Sorry if I missed that episode. I should have PVR it.


I'll make some. Cant have anyone thinking its not possible. All that is asking, is asking to make a video of what I do day in, day out. There are many photos on flickr of one coat cuts over white trim paint with BEHR also on +. I don't want to keep reposting things. 

I have stuff in place for a reason because as these systems are wiped for new systems I then want to delete the old and I cant do that here on PT so old systems talk clutters the place and I get emails about that stuff which I no longer want to discuss when they are replaced by another.


----------



## Oden

not an Internet guru but I assume JP gets paid for hits on his site? No?


----------



## CApainter

jack pauhl said:


> Does it look like I'm rushing? I make a cut like seen in any of those videos and carry the connecting cuts as I walk a room. There is no rush, its an efficient cut and that obviously has nothing to do with rushing. I understand what your saying tho. Guys who rush have to make up for lack of being efficient.


JP,

Cutting from the ground is pretty simple for anyone. If you were to produce a video that demonstrated a technique where one could cut in with a hockey stick,goose neck, or brush extension without a ladder, then I would be impressed.


----------



## robladd

CApainter said:


> A minute and a half youtube video of speed cutting doesn't impress me as much as being on a job site for eight hours with a competent contractor that understands job management, sequencing, and logistics. In other words, pace, endurance, and consistency are more important to me then speed.


John this is Residential painting. You know as well as I do on a Commercial Gov. job like a Airport, Court House, School that has a 3rd party inspection firm doing QC and QA that the so called "system" would NEVER pass inspection.

You can't take short cuts, you have to follow the job scope of the work order. So to me 1 inside corner that was cut in... were we suppose to be impressed?


----------



## jack pauhl

CApainter said:


> JP,
> 
> Cutting from the ground is pretty simple for anyone. If you were to produce a video that demonstrated a technique where one could cut in with a hockey stick,goose neck, or brush extension without a ladder, then I would be impressed.


If it was easy for everyone from the ground then I wouldn't need to be making videos or I'm sure by now I would have stumbled on another painter doing the same here local. 

Be impressed by the capabilities of BEHR because if the tables were turned and I saw these videos ill be posting---I would feel cheated by those expensive alternative paints. BEHR just took what I already did in two coats and made it possible to do it one cut... (most of the time). The speed never really changed. I cant get past 7' in 7 - 8 seconds. Seems to be a max for me but Im cool with what I have.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> My cut is set at a heavy mil which is more than twice what most guys cut at.





jack pauhl said:


> You painting for 30 years leaves you the most likely not to believe it... I work with a guy who has 30 years and he can't do it either but he watches me do it.
> 
> The heavier the film the faster the cut. Have you seen any of my cut videos?





jack pauhl said:


> All my stuff is level 5 smooth.


The reason I chimed into this thread is because when posts like this get made in a room full of good painters, it can be a bit much, especially when it (at times) seems to be cast in such a shroud of mystery. Throw in the mix that the persona is fictional, and it can call into question the reality of the claims, when they are not able to be clearly shown. 

As I said above, I think Jack is a good painter and a good guy who does enjoy helping people, but sometimes it comes off like hearing a loud horn blowing but no car in sight.


----------



## jack pauhl

robladd said:


> John this is Residential painting. You know as well as I do on a Commercial Gov. job like a Airport, Court House, School that has a 3rd party inspection firm doing QC and QA that the so called "system" would NEVER pass inspection.
> 
> You can't take short cuts, you have to follow the job scope of the work order. So to me 1 inside corner that was cut in... were we suppose to be impressed?


I like how you downplay it. This always happens on PT. Who cares if YOU have to cut it twice or not on commercial. Its still solid regardless and to do it again is for other reasons which only make sense to the person who spec'd it. I would prefer to have solid cuts regardless because they dont require any more time to perform.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> The reason I chimed into this thread is because when posts like this get made in a room full of good painters, it can be a bit much, especially when it (at times) seems to be cast in such a shroud of mystery. Throw in the mix that the persona is fictional, and it can call into question the reality of the claims, when they are not able to be clearly shown.
> 
> As I said above, I think Jack is a good painter and a good guy who does enjoy helping people, but sometimes it comes off like hearing a loud horn blowing but no car in sight.


"My stuff is Level 5" refers to the type of surfaces we typically paint. Smooth vs textured. its all smooth drywall or repainting smooth walls.

What gets me about you Scott is your approach. If you cant do what I post then ASK how its possible. The way you come off is the wrong way to pry for info. I realize this stuff goes way against the grain---I don't think I have to remind you how long Ive been discussing the same stuff with the same responses. Those photos and videos are made specifically to back my S up.

If I saw videos, photos or an outrageous claim then Im going to want to figure out how I could adopt it---not throw stones and call it a fake or BS like you are implying. Because you damn well I'm going to create a video or do whatever it takes. And you should also know, if you fly here you are going to see it yourself. I think you should because you have a really hard time believing it.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> "My stuff is Level 5" refers to the type of surfaces we typically paint. Smooth vs textured. its all smooth drywall or repainting smooth walls.
> 
> What gets me about you Scott is your approach. If you cant do what I post then ASK how its possible. The way you come off is the wrong way to pry for info. I realize this stuff goes way against the grain---I don't think I have to remind you how long Ive been discussing the same stuff with the same responses. Those photos and videos are made specifically to back my S up.
> 
> If I saw videos, photos or an outrageous claim then Im going to want to figure out how I could adopt it---not throw stones and call it a fake or BS like you are implying. Because you damn well I'm going to create a video or do whatever it takes. And you should also know, if you fly here you are going to see it yourself. I think you should because you have a really hard time believing it.


Brian

What you dont understand is that I don't want or need information from you. 

If I was in the Cleveland market blasting out a cookie cutter every two days to stay ahead of the carpet guys, I am sure you would be at the top of the list of locals I would find interesting to talk to. 

That not being the case, I find reading your info to be interesting and entertaining. 

I am glad that Behr has changed your life. It seems to be working for you and your enthusiasm comes through loud and clear. It works for you. 

Just as you said to RobLadd above: Who cares what works for YOU?

Again, I do think you have skills, but I run a crew of 6 employees that I work with and sequence every single day. I guess it just takes a little more to blow me away.


----------



## robladd

jack pauhl said:


> I like how you downplay it. This always happens on PT. Who cares if YOU have to cut it twice or not on commercial. Its still solid regardless and to do it again is for other reasons which only make sense to the person who spec'd it. I would prefer to have solid cuts regardless because they dont require any more time to perform.


I under stand that your getting the required mil thickness in your 1 cut. 2 coats at the specified DFT not only gives you the intended mil per coat,
it gives you the intend mil thickness for the specified "coating system".

Also gives you the intended surface tension written in the contract. 

I like your vids JP they are intended to show what you do, residential painting.

But the Thread is Cutting In. I'm just making it real on the commercial end. Not all commercial just 3rd party inspected Gov. jobs.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> Brian
> 
> What you dont understand is that I don't want or need information from you.
> 
> If I was in the Cleveland market blasting out a cookie cutter every two days to stay ahead of the carpet guys, I am sure you would be at the top of the list of locals I would find interesting to talk to.
> 
> That not being the case, I find reading your info to be interesting and entertaining.
> 
> I am glad that Behr has changed your life. It seems to be working for you and your enthusiasm comes through loud and clear. It works for you.
> 
> Just as you said to RobLadd above: Who cares what works for YOU?
> 
> Again, I do think you have skills, but I run a crew of 6 employees that I work with and sequence every single day. I guess it just takes a little more to blow me away.


Scott are you sure you dont want to fly out and see those non-cookie cutter houses we paint that I used to do back in the day with 11-14 guys but only with two today? That alone would be worth the trip. Just think how much you can take back home with you and ponder over what you do with 6.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Scott are you sure you dont want to fly out and see those non-cookie cutter houses we paint that I used to do back in the day with 11-14 guys but only with two today? That alone would be worth the trip. Just think how much you can take back home with you and ponder over what you do with 6.


Thanks for the offer, however I am sure. Our operation is pretty well dialed, and we have substantial enough checks and balances in place for both production and quality, geared specifically to the clientele we serve. Business is good, and we never take our eye off the financials. Like I said, I do enjoy reading your stuff though.


----------



## vermontpainter

jack pauhl said:


> Scott are you sure you dont want to fly out and see those non-cookie cutter houses we paint that I used to do back in the day with 11-14 guys but only with two today?


There is no way for me to ask this without it sounding snarky (that is not my intent), but have you considered the possibility that you were a poor manager and that for your professional evolution it was just easier for you to work 7 days a week and do most of the work yourself?

That is not uncommon among exceptionally skilled self employed people. I did that for a couple of years and have found it to be better for my lifestyle to learn proper hiring/firing systems and build better training and management into the program.


----------



## dfoster

Thanks for all the input to my original question. I found the reads both very informative and entertaining. For Scott, I'm newer here, why do call Jack Brian? What is this alter ego. All I can think about is when Garth Brooks created an alter ego about ten years ago--Chris Gaines--and it was a total flop.


----------



## vermontpainter

dfoster said:


> Thanks for all the input to my original question. I found the reads both very informative and entertaining. For Scott, I'm newer here, why do call Jack Brian? What is this alter ego. All I can think about is when Garth Brooks created an alter ego about ten years ago--Chris Gaines--and it was a total flop.


I'll let Jack explain to you how and why Brian created him, if one of them so chooses. :jester:

And, you have been a good sport in riding along on this thread as it has veered in and out of your original question. What was it again? :blink:


----------



## NCPaint1

vermontpainter said:


> And, you have been a good sport in riding along on this thread as it has veered in and out of your original question. What was it again? :blink:


I liken this thread to Neil Degrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan arguing over what to classify Pluto as.

There both smarter than everyone here, debating about something neither can prove and nobody gives a $hit about


----------



## mudbone

C'mon guys please dont put Jack in a box!


----------



## vermontpainter

dfoster said:


> Whenever I put two coats on a wall, I always cut in twice. I've heard of people that only cut in once and roll two coats. I don't see how this could look all that great. If something needs two coats, wouldn't you say it all needs two coats--and not just the areas the roller can hit? Discuss.


df

I train my painters to do a full first coat and a full second coat, regardless of color, product or sheen. That is what works best for us aesthetically and performance wise. 

I like the first cut to establish the lines into the ceiling, so that the second coat ceiling cut can be held off from it by 1/16", and therefore it goes faster. I prefer the width of our cuts to not exceed much more than about two inches, because I don't like seeing brush texture on walls. Walls are to be rolled, and rolled tight into ceilings and trim. We finish trim in between first and second coat on walls (in new construction) and we get the most crisp finished lines by final cutting walls into ceilings and casings last, then cutting base into walls. We don't use very much tape as a result. We all prefer to brush over taping. 

When guys do the big fat heavy cut, and then roll into it, there is that overlap of roller and brush which creates an effect called "Hat Banding". Its like having an extra coat where the two come together. It doesn't matter to some painters (or customers), but it matters to me. The texture issue is the fundamental pet peeve that has always kept me preferring the narrower width cut. The best brush guy on my crew describes it as the marriage between brush and roller on the wall. 

It is a simple matter of work habits, and it seems that different painters and crews can have very different work habits. It does become muscle (and your eye is a muscle) memory after a while. Good habits stick. Bad habits are hard to break. Pick the good ones every time, even if it hurts your efficiency a bit while you develop them. Once developed, its automatic. This is how our painters are trained, and that is geared to the type of work we do, the service we deliver and our customer's expectations, all of which forms your reputation, which in turn is one of your most critical marketing and sales tools. 

Ironically, it takes a little more time to spread less paint on critical cuts. It is easier to spread more paint fast than to spread less paint fast. It comes down to brush control. Our guys pretty quickly learn how to spread just the right amount of paint fast, which is in my opinion the ideal scenario because nothing ever looks sloppy from any angle, in natural or artificial light. That is one thing to keep in mind. If you are working in your customers home from 7-3:30, things will look completely different to them in artificial light at 10 pm. Cover all bases and avoid call backs. 

This is the benefit of skipping no steps. Its a bigger picture mentality, but once you get it all working, its a good way.


----------



## vermontpainter

NCPaint1 said:


> I liken this thread to Neil Degrasse Tyson and Carl Sagan arguing over what to classify Pluto as.
> 
> There both smarter than everyone here, debating about something neither can prove and nobody gives a $hit about


Actually, I am pretty sure there are some astronomy enthusiasts here.


----------



## Rbriggs82

Pluto is the 9th planet I don't care what they say.


----------



## Workaholic

hmmmm.


----------



## Schmidt & Co.

Workaholic said:


> hmmmm.


Going for the lock?


----------



## RH

Rbriggs82 said:


> Pluto is the 9th planet I don't care what they say.


Oh... _that_ Pluto. :001_unsure:


----------



## robladd

Pluto?


----------



## RH

vermontpainter said:


> There is no way for me to ask this without it sounding snarky (that is not my intent), but have you considered the possibility that you were a poor manager and that for your professional evolution it was just easier for you to work 7 days a week and do most of the work yourself?
> 
> That is not uncommon among exceptionally skilled self employed people. I did that for a couple of years and have found it to be better for my lifestyle to learn proper hiring/firing systems and build better training and management into the program.


So Scott, do you think "systems" are effective? :whistling2:


----------



## Wolfgang

Seems we're going through another cycle of bashing JP. Not like it's the first time, nor likely to be the last....and everybody survives them.

Jack has developed a system that works well for him. Is it for everybody? Maybe not. Don't we all have our own "systems" that work well for us? How many of us take the time to refine what we do? Or do we find ourselves doing it the same way day in and day out using the same equipment and products when at all possible?

I don't have an ax to grind with Jack. Truth be told, I enjoy reading some of his hands on reviews and watching a few of his vids. Even taken a few of his ideas and adapted them to fit my needs and techniques. But like everything else in life, it's a matter of taking what you can use and leaving the rest.....or you can just leave it all. 

But I think there are more than a couple of members here who wouldn't mind spending a day or two on a jobsite with JP if for nothing else but to observe first hand.


----------



## jack pauhl

vermontpainter said:


> There is no way for me to ask this without it sounding snarky (that is not my intent), but have you considered the possibility that you were a poor manager and that for your professional evolution it was just easier for you to work 7 days a week and do most of the work yourself?
> 
> That is not uncommon among exceptionally skilled self employed people. I did that for a couple of years and have found it to be better for my lifestyle to learn proper hiring/firing systems and build better training and management into the program.


You might ask yourself that exact same question Scott---where you are today with your 6 since you and I are not on the same page ever. If we were on the same page then the things I post wont appear to be so shocking to you. If your 6 were as good as you say then the claims I make might be just a nudge outside of obtainable. But no, my claims are outrageous, the impossible! You use a damn ProShot for crying out loud Scott... no wonder you need 6. If you showed up on my job with a ProShot I'd slap it out of your hand. 

It appears we are working from two very different books on how to paint and this is why I try to stay out of your business, posts and blog and its also why you find my stuff outrageous. So what were you saying about building better systems, training and management? The only way I relate to you is that I remember it from my past.

I jumped in this business running and grew fast... it required man power (bodies) to fill positions. Good painters are not easy to find especially when you need a dozen. Over time experience grew, products and systems changed and here we are without all that mumbo jumbo headache and the money stays in my pocket. 

Want a little exercise on how different our management is? Take another guess as to why I work 7 days. There is no way possible you will guess it because that level of management isn't in your thinking or your writing and that shows based on this "just easier for you to work 7 days a week and do most of the work yourself" Hope that wasn't too snarky for ya, wasn't my intent.


----------



## jack pauhl

Wolfgang said:


> Seems we're going through another cycle of bashing JP. Not like it's the first time, nor likely to be the last....and everybody survives them.
> 
> Jack has developed a system that works well for him. Is it for everybody? Maybe not. Don't we all have our own "systems" that work well for us? How many of us take the time to refine what we do? Or do we find ourselves doing it the same way day in and day out using the same equipment and products when at all possible?
> 
> I don't have an ax to grind with Jack. Truth be told, I enjoy reading some of his hands on reviews and watching a few of his vids. Even taken a few of his ideas and adapted them to fit my needs and techniques. But like everything else in life, it's a matter of taking what you can use and leaving the rest.....or you can just leave it all.
> 
> But I think there are more than a couple of members here who wouldn't mind spending a day or two on a jobsite with JP if for nothing else but to observe first hand.


Its just common from guys who cant achieve what I post and the claims I make but Im not going to hold hands here and explain everything in detail. I offer the component, parts, products... that should get anyone headed in the right direction. Thanks Wolf


----------



## jack pauhl

A handful of guys from PT have mentioned coming out to to spend some time here in Cleveland. No one yet. I've also had offers to join them at their place of work. My schedule wont allow that without advanced planning. Recently had the opportunity to work with a rep on a job from start to finish and here is what he had to say. Every paint rep should do that btw, at least once. I think it offers a better understanding to jobsite requirements and the ever changing demands each job presents. 

He said,

"I will say this. Your approach and foresight to a job is unparalleled. 

The beauty of your system is its dynamic and not static, ever changing to adapt to specific situations, circumstances, timelines and really anything that comes your way. 

Couple that with freakishly fast skills, spraying, cutting in, rolling and it is quite impressive. On several occasions I would literally just stand back and watch the show (probably annoyed you LOL).﻿"

All of what he witnessed has been posted and talked about endlessly on PT and my site.


----------



## Dave Mac

I say we all band together and donate money and fly Scott out their to see first hand and who better then Scott to write up a article on the subject OF JP I donate $100


----------



## Dave Mac

double post


----------



## Steve Richards

I'd only be 10% as interested as Dave...I'll pledge $10.


----------



## Steve Richards

I'd be willing to make it $20, but for that I'd want at least full page from VP.

I'd also want pictures of them shaking hands and/or man-hugging at the end.


----------



## RH

Dave Mac said:


> double post


So now we have $200.


----------



## Dave Mac

researchhound said:


> So now we have $200.


lmao wait a minute no fair


----------



## robladd

Round Trip Montreal to Cleveland 2 week advance booking return a week later.

$501.00


----------



## wje

jack pauhl said:


> A handful of guys from PT have mentioned coming out to to spend some time here in Cleveland. No one yet. I've also had offers to join them at their place of work. My schedule wont allow that without advanced planning. Recently had the opportunity to work with a rep on a job from start to finish and here is what he had to say. Every paint rep should do that btw, at least once. I think it offers a better understanding to jobsite requirements and the ever changing demands each job presents.
> 
> He said,
> 
> "I will say this. Your approach and foresight to a job is unparalleled.
> 
> The beauty of your system is its dynamic and not static, ever changing to adapt to specific situations, circumstances, timelines and really anything that comes your way.
> 
> Couple that with freakishly fast skills, spraying, cutting in, rolling and it is quite impressive. On several occasions I would literally just stand back and watch the show (probably annoyed you LOL).﻿"
> 
> All of what he witnessed has been posted and talked about endlessly on PT and my site.


 
Behr has paint reps?


----------



## TJ Paint

wje said:


> Behr has paint reps?


Good call. 

But what do I know, I cut in twice.


----------



## Steve Richards

wje said:


> Behr has paint reps?


Yes, behind every HD cash register.


----------



## vermontpainter

Brian

As I've said, you are a good guy and a good painter with passion, and you dont like to be questioned. Life is short, this is all not worth getting too excited over.


----------



## TJ Paint

Tiger cuts in fastest.


----------



## bigjeffie61520

TJ_
put a beveled button on your roller and get within3/8 to 1/4 of casing etc and you wont have to double cut. 
oh, and tape the base and roll right to it.
also,bear altra isthe best ever. . even in red, 1 coat is sufficient for raw drywall 

with this system, two hot rods can do the work of,say, ten or eleven unenlightened mortals.
come up with a pseudonym, too.


----------



## TJ Paint

Before this thread dies to natural causes or gets closed, I gotta say one more thing:

eye of the tiger.


----------



## mudbone

Wolfgang said:


> Seems we're going through another cycle of bashing JP. Not like it's the first time, nor likely to be the last....and everybody survives them.
> 
> Jack has developed a system that works well for him. Is it for everybody? Maybe not. Don't we all have our own "systems" that work well for us? How many of us take the time to refine what we do? Or do we find ourselves doing it the same way day in and day out using the same equipment and products when at all possible?
> 
> I don't have an ax to grind with Jack. Truth be told, I enjoy reading some of his hands on reviews and watching a few of his vids. Even taken a few of his ideas and adapted them to fit my needs and techniques. But like everything else in life, it's a matter of taking what you can use and leaving the rest.....or you can just leave it all.
> 
> But I think there are more than a couple of members here who wouldn't mind spending a day or two on a jobsite with JP if for nothing else but to observe first hand.


 It's like Jack the ripper!


----------



## Paradigmzz

mudbone said:


> It's like Jack the ripper!


Think your trying to hard on that one... A for effort though:thumbup:


----------



## ExcelPaintingCo

I'm not really choosing sides here, but I have to say that working 7 days a week is a little too much. One should be able to spend some time with the kids, give them some memories and also just enjoy life outside of painting.


----------



## RH

Paradigmzz said:


> Think your trying to hard on that one... A for effort though:thumbup:


Meh... a B+ maybe. Not up to his usual standards.


----------



## RH

Reading through most of this and a few things stand out.

Developing systems is fine but sticking to them consistently and under every situation that comes up seems unrealistic.

Working seven days a week is okay now and then but other than that - unrealistic.

Squeezing every single ounce of production out of every second of the day is a fine goal but also unrealistic.

Taken as a whole I applaud the energy, effort, and thought - kinda. But then I take a step back and take a realistic look at it all and it seems like a short cut to burn out or worse. But then again I'm only human and an old enough one to know that there are other things more important than work.


----------



## TJ Paint

I thought the reason to work smarter not harder, or least one of them was so you got more free time...

But what do I know, I cut in twice.


----------



## Damon T

jack pauhl said:


> All my stuff is level 5 smooth. You guys with textures got it made. Im not sure anything important with finishing smooth applies with textures, not methods, not paint products or the systems. You kind of have it easy in comparison.


I'm sure this thread has long since spiraled to the absurd, though it's been very entertaining. This post caught my attention though. My experience is that textured walls are actually more of a pain, as if you spray your trim paint onto the walls, you are adding mils to the texture which creates a halo effect. Masking walls before shooting trim paint is a major hassle. On smooth wall you can overshoot onto the walls without a worry. I would be interested to hear what others have to say about this topic. Who knows, it could spawn another 10 pages of entertainment.


----------



## chrisn

jack pauhl said:


> A handful of guys from PT have mentioned coming out to to spend some time here in Cleveland. No one yet. I've also had offers to join them at their place of work. My schedule wont allow that without advanced planning. Recently had the opportunity to work with a rep on a job from start to finish and here is what he had to say. Every paint rep should do that btw, at least once. I think it offers a better understanding to jobsite requirements and the ever changing demands each job presents.
> 
> He said,
> 
> "I will say this. Your approach and foresight to a job is unparalleled.
> 
> The beauty of your system is its dynamic and not static, ever changing to adapt to specific situations, circumstances, timelines and really anything that comes your way.
> 
> Couple that with freakishly fast skills, spraying, cutting in, rolling and it is quite impressive. On several occasions I would literally just stand back and watch the show (probably annoyed you LOL).﻿"
> 
> All of what he witnessed has been posted and talked about endlessly on PT and my site.


 
Thank you GOD:notworthy:

I just need to know. How come nobody( at least to my knowledge) has taken all of you're wisdom and knowledge that you so freely give away and actually put it to use and posted positively about it(or negatively)


----------



## chrisn

bigjeffie61520 said:


> TJ_
> put a beveled button on your roller and get within3/8 to 1/4 of casing etc and you wont have to double cut.
> oh, and tape the base and roll right to it.
> also,bear altra isthe best ever. . even in red, 1 coat is sufficient for raw drywall
> 
> with this system, two hot rods can do the work of,say, ten or eleven unenlightened mortals.
> come up with a pseudonym, too.


 

red, one coat, raw drywall,
now that sounds like production to me
and you get paid for that? I bet not:whistling2:


----------



## bigjeffie61520

i was referring to a former post by our cystems engineer_personally i use the grey primer prescribed by ben moore, then a coat or two of aura in red.


----------



## Dave Mac

chrisn said:


> red, one coat, raw drywall,
> now that sounds like production to me
> and you get paid for that? I bet not:whistling2:


Chris this another guy that knows something the 99% of us dont know, open your mind lol

one coat red on bare sheetrock, hey we sent men to the moon right


----------



## caulktheline

Dave Mac said:


> Chris this another guy that knows something the 99% of us dont know, open your mind lol
> 
> one coat red on bare sheetrock, hey we sent men to the moon right


I think he was joking there, Dave.


----------



## 1963 Sovereign

when will the mods close this thread?


----------



## Steve Richards

mudbone said:


> It's like Jack the ripper!





Paradigmzz said:


> Think your trying to hard on that one... A for effort though:thumbup:





researchhound said:


> Meh... a B+ maybe. Not up to his usual standards.


Mudbone... IMO you're never going to top "*It's hard to be humble when theres a bumble!".*

You reached the apex with that, and there's nowhere to go but down.

You might as well just start making regular boring posts like the rest of us now.

kinda sad really


----------



## Steve Richards

1963 Sovereign said:


> when will the mods close this thread?


I'm guessing either right after JP comes back and tells us all to go F ourselves, or it strays so far off topic that we start talking about mudbone.

But I could be wrong.


----------



## bigjeffie61520

http://www.jackpauhl.com/behr-premium-plus-ultra-eggshell/

i really wanted to avoid this, but this is the reference.

my personal experience with this product did not yield similar results, altho i didnt take photos etc
-perhaps it was another case of inept application

if you bother to look-note how one coat supposedly covers not only bare drywall, but a black mark as well

in fairness, upon further review, he does talk about multiple coats, even using the nectar of the god's.

multiple coats on my project didnt help either. the altra red multiple was inferior to one coat bm aura prime, 1 coat aura finish -in crushed velvet

sorry to wear the whole thing out


----------



## TJ Paint

behrs the berry best?!

Jeez, you see I was missing something the whole time going. 

I'm going to call a behr rep up and see what kind of deal I can get...

Anybody know how to get a hold of a behr rep?


----------



## playedout6

LOL....I thought the poke about, "Behr has Reps ?" earlier in the thread was a stinger !!!


----------



## Dave Mac

TJ Paint said:


> behrs the berry best?!
> 
> Jeez, you see I was missing something the whole time going.
> 
> I'm going to call a behr rep up and see what kind of deal I can get...
> 
> Anybody know how to get a hold of a behr rep?


tj a lot of times all you have to do is go to HD wearing a company tee shirt and they will find you and hound you and make you all types of promises


----------



## caulktheline

TJ Paint said:


> Anybody know how to get a hold of a behr rep?


jackpauhldotcom


----------



## Rbriggs82

I had a HD guy ask me if I liked getting bent over by SW. 

It was HD professionalism at its best.


----------



## BrushJockey

Rbriggs82 said:


> I had a HD guy ask me if I liked getting bent over by SW.


well, do ya?


----------



## Xmark

dfoster said:


> Whenever I put two coats on a wall, I always cut in twice. I've heard of people that only cut in once and roll two coats. I don't see how this could look all that great. If something needs two coats, wouldn't you say it all needs two coats--and not just the areas the roller can hit? Discuss.


for 2 coats I roll first coat in as many rooms as possible. that way the mudd will be sealed better the longer first coat it is given to dry. this way it has a better chance of not flashing. next is cutting then spot prime the mudded drywal repairs if painted the same day.

second coat is cut then roll

or you could spot prime first,cut, then roll first coat.


----------



## Dave Mac

BrushJockey said:


> well, do ya?


My particular store has great customer service, thats the only reason I stick with them, I really don't like how SW does things like record profits and yet they still try to stick you 4 times a year with a price increase
however HD customer service is non existent and cant See them meeting my service needs at all


----------



## Steve Richards

It's nice to see a few other guys like to roll first too.

Not saying it's correct or not...just saying that I pretty much got flamed for mentioning it before...on another board that I won't say the name of CT again.


----------



## Xmark

Steve Richards said:


> It's nice to see a few other guys like to roll first too.
> 
> Not saying it's correct or not...just saying that I pretty much got flamed for mentioning it before...on another board that I won't say the name of CT again.


that's my process for 2 coats. i apply 2 coats for 95% of my jobs. if only doing one coat I cut in first then roll because it might picture frame.


----------



## RH

Steve Richards said:


> It's nice to see a few other guys like to roll first too.
> 
> Not saying it's correct or not...just saying that I pretty much got flamed for mentioning it before...on another board that I won't say the name of CT again.


Course you are a self-admitted hack. :whistling2:

This thread has been pretty funny. Never knew there were so many different ways to put paint on a wall. That probably makes me a hack.


----------



## Xmark

researchhound said:


> Course you are a self-admitted hack. :whistling2:
> 
> This thread has been pretty funny. Never knew there were so many different ways to put paint on a wall. That probably makes me a hack.


and we still haven't heard from the guys who tape off the trim and spray the last coat.:thumbsup:


----------



## RH

This has been posted before but it's time to do so again. Fits the thread. Not sure why the title was in German - but it doesn't matter.


----------



## vermontpainter

researchhound said:


> Never knew there were so many different ways to put paint on a wall. That probably makes me a hack.


These are days of great innovation. Those who still install 2 and 3 coat systems are very much in the minority. 

I just wish I had time, or another crew, to dedicate to going around and fixing the one coat disappoinments that people call in with. Sometimes the line between pro and diy becomes very blurred.


----------



## Workaholic

1963 Sovereign said:


> when will the mods close this thread?


I am sure the thread can take another healthy spin. 



vermontpainter said:


> I just wish I had time, or another crew, to dedicate to going around and fixing the one coat disappoinments that people call in with.


No you don't. A lot of these guys are cheap and got the delivered product that they paid for or decided they could save and delivered something themselves that they think is a pro quality but is actually just a hack job. So between the customer screwing themselves out of a really nice job and many contractors screwing the customers by delivering cheap materials and endless supplies of short cuts there is just no way to help them all. 
Better off to stick with the type of customers you have been grooming over the years which has saved you from getting the calls about 79.00 room repaints and apartment turnovers and a business that has carried you and your crew through the bubble pop while so many sunk.


----------



## Xmark

Workaholic said:


> I am sure the thread can take another healthy spin.
> 
> 
> No you don't. A lot of these guys are cheap and got the delivered product that they paid for or decided they could save and delivered something themselves that they think is a pro quality but is actually just a hack job. Better off to stick with the type of customers you have been grooming over the years which has saved you from getting the calls about 79.00 room repaints and apartment turnovers and a business that has carried you and your crew through the bubble pop while so many sunk.


is there room for both? could a successful high end painting company also have a division for the cheap apartment jobs and the like? keep them separate;cash flow is the name of the game.


----------



## RH

Xmark said:


> is there room for both? could a successful high end painting company also have a division for the cheap apartment jobs and the like? keep them separate;cash flow is the name of the game.


I have a group of landlord customers whose properties I've slowly converted over to all the same color and sheen. The original jobs were all two coats projects but now when a repaint comes up I'll spot coat the repaired areas or where there are serious marks, scuffs, etc., and then apply just one full coat - usually skipping the ceilings. It's a cost issue and it's considered more of a maintenance type job than a true repaint.


----------



## Xmark

researchhound said:


> I have a group of landlord customers whose properties I've slowly converted over to all the same color and sheen. The original jobs were all two coats projects but now when a repaint comes up I'll spot coat the repaired areas or where there are serious marks, scuffs, etc., and then apply just one coat. It's a cost issue and it's consider more maintenance than a true repaint.


what product do you use that allows spot rolling without it flashing? i could see a nice profit if you have done the previous work and use all the same color paint for touch-ups.


----------



## Workaholic

Xmark said:


> is there room for both? could a successful high end painting company also have a division for the cheap apartment jobs and the like? keep them separate;cash flow is the name of the game.


If managed correctly then I don't see why not. 



researchhound said:


> I have a group of landlord customers whose properties I've slowly converted over to all the same color and sheen. The original jobs were all two coats projects but now when a repaint comes up I'll spot coat the repaired areas or where there are serious marks, scuffs, etc., and then apply just one coat. It's a cost issue and it's consider more maintenance than a true repaint.


There is a difference in the gold, silver, and bronze package. With that you give them what the budget covers and expectations are met but when one says you gave two coats but actually cut it in once and rolled it twice it becomes a short cut. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Xmark

Workaholic said:


> If managed correctly then I don't see why not.
> 
> 
> There is a difference in the gold, silver, and bronze package. With that you give them what the budget covers and expectations are met but when one says you gave two coats but actually cut it in once and rolled it twice it becomes a short cut. Just my 2 cents.


i like the concept of the gold,silver bronze packages but in reality most customers want the 'gold' at bronze prices. it's difficult to put in writing exactly what a "bronze" prep job entails.


----------



## vermontpainter

Workaholic said:


> I am sure the thread can take another healthy spin.
> 
> 
> No you don't. A lot of these guys are cheap and got the delivered product that they paid for or decided they could save and delivered something themselves that they think is a pro quality but is actually just a hack job. So between the customer screwing themselves out of a really nice job and many contractors screwing the customers by delivering cheap materials and endless supplies of short cuts there is just no way to help them all.
> Better off to stick with the type of customers you have been grooming over the years which has saved you from getting the calls about 79.00 room repaints and apartment turnovers and a business that has carried you and your crew through the bubble pop while so many sunk.


You're right overall. I am referring more to the homeowners with nice houses (half mil and up) that got hosed. 

There are guys going around with low job costs who make good bank per hour by doing half assed one coat work behind. 

Say one guy bids $1000 for interior painting, two coats with prep and will make $35/hr. Some hack ball comes in at $900, in and out in a day with no prep and one coat, making $100/hr. 

This is why one of the first questions I ask on a first meeting with a prospective customer is who did the painting last time. Almost 100% of the time they do not remember, no relationship was formed and they weren't super happy with the results. 

Alot of guys promise "two coat coverage", which is an extremely subjective term these days, as we see right here on pt from time to time.


----------



## wje

There will always be people who are looking for value and people looking for cheap.
There is a large difference. 

We have done a lot of repaints where everything would have easily covered in one coat. The homeowners still wanted to have the walls painted twice as they stated many times during our walkthrough. Who am I to tell them they are not entitled to that if that is what they want to have done, I will price it accordingly and do the work as per their specs.

If what JP does when he is pricing is states he will have the walls 100% covered, no old colour bleeding through, without cheating anybody out of a coat that he put in his quote, than I can't really see a problem with that.

For me though, when I estimate I do a room by room break down stating what is getting painted, and how many coats. If I were to use this system and was called out on it after a scope of work clearly stated all walls were to get 2 coats, I would be in some big trouble. Whether it needed the coat or not, if it has been priced for and not needed, than I would either consult the homeowner to see if they wanted the step skipped and reflected on the final bill, or just do the work as agreed upon.

I think after we all jumped down JPs throat, we should have asked him what his ways of going about this system were. He tells us his ways, but never tells us his HO interactions. I think if everybody is on the same page, and everybody is happy when the job is done, there is no way any of us should tell JP his system is garbage. He should also not tell us we should switch to his system.

I will still never switch to Behr Paint, or any box store paint, and I will still not believe all the outrageous claims, but if that is his way of doing business and he gets paid. I guess Kudos to JP, or Bryan, or whoever he really is.

I am officially retiring from this thread. Unless I feel the urge to post again.


----------



## Workaholic

Xmark said:


> i like the concept of the gold,silver bronze packages but in reality most customers want the 'gold' at bronze prices. it's difficult to put in writing exactly what a "bronze" prep job entails.


All of the above is true. It really comes down to giving the customer what they want and are paying for. I have done plenty of same color one coat repaints and all expectations are met and later when they want it done again or decide on a color change they will often call again. 
For me repeat business and referrals are the bread and butter. With all the short cuts and people who claim to be professional but fail to play the part it is not that hard to set yourself apart from others that are out there just going through the motions.


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## Workaholic

wje said:


> If what JP does when he is pricing is states he will have the walls 100% covered, no old colour bleeding through, without cheating anybody out of a coat that he put in his quote, than I can't really see a problem with that.


 That is a good point but like you I specify what is getting what.



wje said:


> I am officially retiring from this thread. Unless I feel the urge to post again.


Funny, I avoided this thread until 1 pro painter or what ever the name was busted on the scene because not to disrespect the OP but after 13 years, cutting in seemed like a no brainer for me.


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## RH

Xmark said:


> what product do you use that allows spot rolling without it flashing? i could see a nice profit if you have done the previous work and use all the same color paint for touch-ups.


I primarily use a brand from a regional company. Although it is the same color and sheen I never do just touch ups. Typically I'm hitting the bad spots once and then a full coat over everything. Never have a flashing issue. Sometimes I'll just do one or two walls that really need it in a room and not the others but not too often. Usually if they want me in at all we do a full single coat job - excluding the ceilings and closets.


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## TJ Paint

Not to change the subject or anything...


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## Workaholic

vermontpainter said:


> You're right overall. I am referring more to the homeowners with nice houses (half mil and up) that got hosed.
> 
> There are guys going around with low job costs who make good bank per hour by doing half assed one coat work behind.
> 
> Say one guy bids $1000 for interior painting, two coats with prep and will make $35/hr. Some hack ball comes in at $900, in and out in a day with no prep and one coat, making $100/hr.


Yes I see this a lot, the best one can do is sell what they are providing such as a reputable legitimate business, detailed explanation on why this is being done, attentive to detail at the time of the meeting. I have won many repaints because I was the only guy that questioned if the wood was soft and pulled a ladder off the truck to determine the condition of a questionable spot. Where as somebody else either ignored it, missed it or never addressed it. 

If one knew for sure that guy A was providing two coats and guy B was providing one coat for a $100 price difference guy A should win every time unless guy A failed to communicate the importance for the two coats. Or seemed to be unable to project the confidence in what he was selling. Or if guy A was offensive in someway while Guy B was charismatic. Lots of variables to that but I am sure you get the idea.



vermontpainter said:


> This is why one of the first questions I ask on a first meeting with a prospective customer is who did the painting last time. Almost 100% of the time they do not remember, no relationship was formed and they weren't super happy with the results.


On the flip side to that I have seen some nice paint jobs and the customer still could not remember who had done the work and had that guy had them on some type of mailing list he more than likely would of been called again.

I knew this thread could be spun again like a top.  



vermontpainter said:


> Alot of guys promise "two coat coverage", which is an extremely subjective term these days, as we see right here on pt from time to time.


Give them what they paid for and what you told them you would do, back this up with the detailed proposal that you both have a copy of and all should be good. Comes down to expectations and communication.


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## NCPaint1

vermontpainter said:


> Sometimes the line between pro and diy becomes very blurred.


Absolutely! One is a piss poor paint job, the other is the same thing done by someone else for you.

The problem is, nobody can tell the difference between a good one and a bad one, until its too late. Then the manufacturer is left to blame, and gets the crap review on the internet because the product failed.


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## Workaholic

TJ Paint said:


> Not to change the subject or anything...


To other cultures it could be debatable 


NCPaint1 said:


> Absolutely! One is a piss poor paint job, the other is the same thing done by someone else for you.
> 
> The problem is, nobody can tell the difference between a good one and a bad one, until its too late. Then the manufacturer is left to blame, and gets the crap review on the internet because the product failed.


At that point it turns into the blame game, the manufacture blames the one who applied it and the prep techniques and the guy/gal who applied it blames the product.


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## RH

jack pauhl said:


> When hired to do a job, you get the best job possible. I make no claims about how that will happen and how many coats. Its just done right and I am thankful to have a client base like that. I don't find myself in situations where I need to explain coats.


I'm a 100% advocate of everyone running their operation as they see fit. So I'm not gonna knock JP if he does this and has a customer base that accepts it. Personally, I want the specifics of a job down in black and white for *both* the customer and me to clearly see. 

On Saturday I submitted a three page contract for a full interior repaint which we begin tomorrow. Each room and area had it's own listing of every step that would be done from prep through clean-up. 

One room is currently done in a deep blue semi-gloss (and sour-apple green trim) . That room will get a full primer coat of tinted Smart-Prime - partly because of the color but mainly because I want to avoid adhesion issues. Two full top coats are then allowed for but an adjusted amount is listed in case one top coat turns out to be sufficient (doubtful).

The master bath will get a full coat of Cover Stain and then two full topcoats because there are mildew staining issues there that I want to address. Because of past problems in this room, the two top coats are not negotiable.

The closets will only get one top coat since they are in good condition and we know exactly what color and sheen was used on them the last time. 

The rest of the house will get spot priming of the repaired areas and then two full top coats. 

Every step and product I feel is necessary to do a quality job is listed and documented. I don't want any aspect of the project open to interpretation. This is a job with a variety of things going on so it definitely needs a highly customized plan of attack. Might there be adjustments or add ons? Sure, but they should be kept to a minimum. For the most part there shouldn't be any major surprises for me or the HO and that's just the way I want it.


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## RH

jack pauhl said:


> This all comes down to product capabilities and skills. I cut once, roll twice in most situations. My cut is set at a heavy mil which is more than twice what most guys cut at. It's feathered to the wall. Them I roll 1/4" or 1/2" to the casing and the base is rolled tight to the tape.
> 
> For example. I cut a recent large house for two days. Once. With any other product I would have cut it twice---another two days. It's product, systems and skills. Let's say I charge $75 per hour times 2 days. Enough said.


I've never had much of a bone to pick with JP. I can take his posts or leave em'. However, I can see how many would be put off by them - perhaps not because of what he says but how he says it.

Take the first sentence above: _"This all comes down to product capabilities and skills."_ Right off the bat the implications are that his products and methods are far superior to any one elses'. So he's immediately turned a certain percentage of the readers off to the rest of his message.

The next sentence: _"This system works great and it saves man hours you couldn't possibly calculate."_ Okay - his system is superior and the rest of you are idiots. Again - not much of an invite to continue reading the post. Unless of course you *are* an idiot and need all the help you can get. 

_"My cut is set at a heavy mil which is more than twice what most guys cut at." _Not sure how you can "set" a cut to a consistent mil - heavy or light - especially if the cuts tend to be as long as are usually described. And I'm not sure how it can be known that his cuts are twice what _"most guys cut at"_. I have enough to do without going out to observe tons of other painters cutting in to ever be able to make a statement about how mine are heavier, better, and more consistent.

The entire last paragraph says and means nothing to me without being able to see the end product. But nevertheless it ends with, _"Enough said"_. Wow - an ending like that makes me feel that the rest of the post simply could have said, "Because I said so :tt2:". It would have been shorter and come to the same conclusion. But obviously, at 140+ posts later, there was still much to be said.

Again, I'm not saying JP's claims are all BS (okay maybe a few are - just a little bit) but I am saying that perhaps better phrasing of the posts might make others actually read and focus on the concepts being described and less on the condescending and superior sounding nature of them.


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## playedout6

LOL...give RH a Gold Medal for summing things up ! :thumbsup:


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## CApainter

I believe residential repainting is subjective, and as long as the industry doesn't require a third party trade inspection, contractors are not obligated to provide a particular film build unless specified in a contract.

Two coats are presented to the customer only as a promise of opaqueness without transparency, in most cases, rather then as a protective barrier where DFT measurements are required to fulfill coating specifications and contractual obligations. If a painter can provide adequate opaqueness in one coat, he has fulfilled his obligation in my opinion. And most homeowners would never know the difference. 

However, if he has charged for two coats, then he's absolutely obligated to provide another coat, but only after allowing the manufacturer's recommended dry time between coats.


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## wje

If I pay for an oil change, I do not just want the oil topped up, I would like it changed.


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## vermontpainter

researchhound said:


> "[/I].
> Again, I'm not saying JP's claims are all BS (okay maybe a few are - just a little bit) but I am saying that perhaps better phrasing of the posts might make others actually read and focus on the concepts being described and less on the condescending and superior sounding nature of them.


Well put, RH. Makes sense. 

At times it is as if there is a fracture between the real (Brian) and the ideal (Jack). 

He is a good dude and a good painter though for sure.


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## vermontpainter

wje said:


> If I pay for an oil change, I do not just want the oil topped up, I would like it changed.


Yah, filter too. Even if they say they are using a self filtering oil. I want the damn filter changed.


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## robladd

jack pauhl said:


> If it was easy for everyone from the ground then I wouldn't need to be making videos or I'm sure by now I would have stumbled on another painter doing the same here local.
> 
> Be impressed by the capabilities of BEHR because if the tables were turned and I saw these videos ill be posting---I would feel cheated by those expensive alternative paints. BEHR just took what I already did in two coats and made it possible to do it one cut... (most of the time). The speed never really changed. I cant get past 7' in 7 - 8 seconds. Seems to be a max for me but Im cool with what I have.


I have read the PDF for Behr Premium Plus Ultra. It comes in 4 interior sheens Flat, Eggshell, Satin and Semi Gloss.

3 tint bases 1750 Ultra Pure White, 1753 Deep Base and 1754 Medium Base.

Application Nylon/Polyester Brush. 3/8"-1/2" Roller Nap and .015" Airless spray tip.

250-400 sq ft per gallon depending on surface porosity. 

Certain Colors may require more than 1 coat for complete hide. 

Dry time 2 hours to the touch 4 hours recoat.

I think I have seen all of JP's videos on cutting in. All the vids where he is getting 7' in 7-8 seconds is over a tinted wall with just enough material to cover.

All the vids where he is applying paint at what he describes as twice the mils of a normal painter
looks like what most of us do, regular cutting in.

I am not impressed with the capabilities of Behr.
For simple fact I have never seen it specified in any commercial or residential job I have EVER done.

My experience with Behr is where a HO was able to talk the GC into doing the painting on their new home. While they could not keep up the GC insisted on hiring a PC to keep up with the building schedule.

Since my company had contracted the drywall we were awarded the contract. The GC had us square everything up that the HO had started.

We squared everything up that had been started with Behr int. and ext. My shop then matched all finish schedule colors to Kelly Moore and finished the int. and ext. of the job.

The GC was happy that we were able to complete the job on time. The HO returned all stock colors to HD and kept the partials.

All custom Behr colors they kept for further use.
All the Behr paints we used the ONLY product we were the least bit impressed with was their PVA wall sealer.


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## ExcelPaintingCo

RH put it much better than I ever could. 

I used to think I was the greatest painter in the world back in the day. I had what I believed was the best instruction and mentors available. Plus I spent years and thousands of hours becoming more efficient. Who could possibly be better? Then I did something that a business mentor recommended many years ago, I hired someone that knew more about painting than I did. Although I've continued to improve over the years, I know there are many better.....Bottom line....there is only one way this thread can be settled......a good, old fashion, paint-off!


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## vermontpainter

In the time it takes you to read this sentence, I can paint an entire house with an artist brush and a hot dog roller, painting left handed with both hands and doing sign language with my feet just in case the awestruck and silent crowd of onlookers happens to be unable to hear me narrating. Brushes and rollers can't release paint at the velocity at which I am capable of applying. Sucks to always be tapping the brake. Oh curse ye paint gods. 

:jester:

I still do want a steel cage cutting match with Dave Mac though. We agreed to a mutual challenge about 5 years ago, and it is a goal of mine before I retire my brushes. Me and Dave Mac will be like the old John McEnroe / Bjorn Borg matches. Can't wait.


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> In the time it takes you to read this sentence, I can paint an entire house with an artist brush and a hot dog roller, painting left handed with both hands and doing sign language with my feet just in case the awestruck and silent crowd of onlookers happens to be unable to hear me narrating. Brushes and rollers can't release paint at the velocity at which I am capable of applying. Sucks to always be tapping the brake. Oh curse ye paint gods.
> 
> :jester:
> 
> I still do want a steel cage cutting match with Dave Mac though. We agreed to a mutual challenge about 5 years ago, and it is a goal of mine before I retire my brushes. Me and Dave Mac will be like the old John McEnroe / Bjorn Borg matches. Can't wait.


I am setting up the paypal account now.......


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## vermontpainter

RCP said:


> I am setting up the paypal account now.......


I think Dave is in North Carolina. Tommy Johnson could host, officiate and run the grill. 

Forget paypal, set up pay per view.


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## RCP

vermontpainter said:


> I think Dave is in North Carolina. Tommy Johnson could host, officiate and run the grill.
> 
> Forget paypal, set up pay per view.


Hmm, Google Hangout, game on!


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## kanddpainting

jack pauhl said:


> Can you explain to me what the problem is with heading over to the only two places I have videos hosted---one of which is linked in my sig and watching the videos?
> 
> Here is an old one with the 2.5" Alpha. The clip only shows half the casing because as you can see, even at half height you can barely make it out. You can however slow a video down under settings.
> 
> There is also a video at full casing height but the only thing you can make out is the wetness of the paint on the wall.
> 
> Another video demonstrates a 5' cut at the ceiling line.
> 
> Another video demonstrates a cut against a stained casing with the BM 2.5" 65125 which is by far thinner and holds much less than a Picasso, nonetheless it covers 5' in the video for viewing up close.
> 
> Also worth mentioning is that these videos are with flat wall paint. I cut with Picasso's today which carry loads further than the Alpha and the 65125.
> 
> So if any of you guys cant make cuts like seen in those videos then lets figure out why that is so we can keep it real like Scott would like. Can you make those cuts Scott? 5', 6' or 7' runs with a single load? It doesnt matter how long the cut is, they all come out to about 1 foot per second.
> 
> Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J515fYsjBN8


Sounds like someone is full of himself. Sorry but everyone does their cut ins different. What works for you may not work for me. That doesn't mean you are wrong or that I am wrong. It just means we each have our own way of doing things. Just because I don't do it your way doesn't make me less of a painter. Just sayin'


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## Greenworks Painting

Don't we apply a little more paint with a brush versus a roller? The mils on a brush stroke is probably close to double that of a roller. If I have solid coverage with 1 coat of cutting..then why add more paint? I guess it would depend on the sheen of the paint, flats/mattes will blend just fine on the 2nd coat with roller but it might be necessary for a 2nd cut if you are applying and eggshell or semi-gloss for blending the sheen and avoiding flashing.
_______________________________________________________________

Chicago Painters Chicago Painting Contractor Chicago Residential Painter Chicago Residential Painting contractor


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## RH

vermontpainter said:


> Well put, RH. Makes sense.
> 
> At times it is as if there is a fracture between the real (Brian) and the ideal (Jack).
> 
> He is a good dude and a good painter though for sure.


Scott,
I'll take your word on the first part and agree with you completely on the second. I'm sure there are many here (myself included) who could benefit professionally from spending a few days with him. 

Looking back at my last post I really didn't mean to come across as heavy handed as I did. I just think that if he would deliver his information more along the lines of, "Hey. I've get a process I'd like to share." instead of like Moses coming down from the mountain, he'd have a lot more receptive audience most of the time. JMO.


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## ProWallGuy




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## Dave Mac

vermontpainter said:


> I think Dave is in North Carolina. Tommy Johnson could host, officiate and run the grill.
> 
> Forget paypal, set up pay per view.


Its on like donkey kong, serving the worlds best BBQ watch two old guys in battle Royal, one with a small but deadly 2,5 inch mini brush in hand, while the other goes with a over sized 4inch brush most cant handle, hope my authorities doesn't act up, we will find out the the real answere to the question does size matter LOL


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## BigBen

I always cut the ceiling line in twice. It seems like the 2nd cut in, sharpens the detail! 
Generally, if I am looking to cut corners, and the cuts look solid, I may only cut-in once and roll twice!


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## vermontpainter

Dave Mac said:


> Its on like donkey kong, serving the worlds best BBQ watch two old guys in battle Royal, one with a small but deadly 2,5 inch mini brush in hand, while the other goes with a over sized 4inch brush most cant handle, hope my authorities doesn't act up, we will find out the the real answere to the question does size matter LOL


My right arm goes numb fast. I will be painting lefty. 

Me, Dave Mac and all painters over 40:


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## DeanV

All good painters can cut lefty and righty. Now, if I coud only find a way to hold a bucket and use a brush in each hand simultaneously, all painting records would fall before my onslaught. Serious pwnage. All your records are belong to us.


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## vermontpainter

DeanV said:


> All good painters can cut lefty and righty. Now, if I coud only find a way to hold a bucket and use a brush in each hand simultaneously, all painting records would fall before my onslaught. Serious pwnage. All your records are belong to us.


Totally do-able. Put brushes in buckets old man.


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## Westview

This is interesting. I never thought of cutting in once and rolling twice. As Jack mentions, if you roll super tight and cut a heavy line while using paint with great coverage such as Super Paint or Behr premium plus ultra, you can get good results with one cut. I'm going to try this out on a job tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm always game for learning new tricks. How you would explain this to the client.....no idea.


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## ReNt A PaInTeR

Since when cutting in once and rolling twice is considered a 2 coat job.


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## RH

vermontpainter said:


> My right arm goes numb fast. I will be painting lefty.
> 
> Me, Dave Mac and all painters over 40:


Jeeze Scott and I thought it was just me. 

Coming off a two week doctor enforced vacation because of my pinched nerve issue hoping the resting might have helped. Four weeks of PT scheduled and then if no improvement, an MRI. 

Started a big job yesterday. Cutting in is torture. Could hardly move my right shoulder and arm last night. Back at it today - a ton of ceiling work. It's gotten to where the pain in my upper shoulder and down my arm pretty much rules my life right now. Can't even sleep in my own bed. It's the recliner for me. It totally sucks big time.


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## DeanV

researchhound said:


> Jeeze Scott and I thought it was just me.
> 
> Coming off a two week doctor enforced vacation because of my pinched nerve issue hoping the resting might have helped. Four weeks of PT scheduled and then if no improvement, an MRI.



I really doubt 4 weeks of paint talk will solve any of your problems, but let us know if it works.


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## RH

DeanV said:


> I really doubt 4 weeks of paint talk will solve any of your problems, but let us know if it works.


lol - set myself up for that one didn't I?


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## 1963 Sovereign

Westview said:


> This is interesting. I never thought of cutting in once and rolling twice. As Jack mentions, if you roll super tight and cut a heavy line while using paint with great coverage such as Super Paint or Behr premium plus ultra, you can get good results with one cut. I'm going to try this out on a job tomorrow and see how it goes. I'm always game for learning new tricks. How you would explain this to the client.....no idea.


 Do You always put two coats on ceilings ?


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## RH

I paint to coverage. Either it's done or not, whether that's one coat or three. Usually you can't get away with only 1 cut coat unless the colors are close, but I can turn the frame sideways and roll pretty darn close. Forgive me if I'm repeating someone, there's no way I'm reading 15 pages of this


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## chrisn

Gibberish45 said:


> I paint to coverage. Either it's done or not, whether that's one coat or three. Usually you can't get away with only 1 cut coat unless the colors are close, but I can turn the frame sideways and roll pretty darn close. Forgive me if I'm repeating someone, there's no way I'm reading 15 pages of this


 
smart man:thumbsup:


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## Oden

it's called a 'Dutch'. turning the handle sideways- you Dutch it. It's just easier to say.


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## TJ Paint

These basic questions always bring in the viewership.


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## LoraM

dfoster said:


> Whenever I put two coats on a wall, I always cut in twice. I've heard of people that only cut in once and roll two coats. I don't see how this could look all that great. If something needs two coats, wouldn't you say it all needs two coats--and not just the areas the roller can hit? Discuss.


 I cut in twice


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## vermontpainter

LoraM said:


> I cut in twice


Right on, Lor!


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## RH

Gibberish45 said:


> I paint to coverage. Either it's done or not, whether that's one coat or three. Usually you can't get away with only 1 cut coat unless the colors are close, but I can turn the frame sideways and roll pretty darn close. Forgive me if I'm repeating someone, there's no way I'm reading 15 pages of this


Bet you first always read the last couple of pages in a mystery novel too. :yes: 



Oden said:


> it's called a 'Dutch'. turning the handle sideways- you Dutch it. It's just easier to say.


Hmmm... it's deja vu all over again.


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## Steve Richards

I kind of lost track of this thread..



DeanV said:


> use a brush in each hand simultaneously, all painting records would fall before my onslaught. Serious pwnage. All your records are belong to us.


Cool idea, Dean

I'm going to try it sometime when no one's watching.

If I can do it, from then on I'll make sure everyone's watching.


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