# Kem Aqua not for re-paints!



## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

i just spoke to the coatings tech guy at Sherwin Wiliams head office in Cleveland . they said that the Kem Aqua and Kem aqua Plus WB lacquers are not recommended over any previous coating. ANY PREVIOUS COATING.

they told me that it is only meant for new wood shop applications.

-no bonding primer was recommended and they repeatdly stressed for new wood only.

this is shocking for me. other manufacturers around the world of WB lacquers never say this.

i know many of you use this product and have used it for years over old finishes.

are they just trying to cover their butts for liability purposes? apparently they've had a lot of complaints from other painters.

what say you?


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## paintcore.ca (Apr 5, 2010)

They said the same to me. They also tell us not to thin there coatings. I have sprayed 100's of gallons with out an issue on re-finishes.


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## jacob33 (Jun 2, 2009)

My opinion is that they are just covering themselves. Honestly I can not blame them. Without proper prep refinishes fail its as simple as that and many do not do proper prep, there are many that do though like most on here. 

In 8 years I have only had one clear coat fail on me and it was minor in a kitchen. Over the stove the cabinet did not get cleaned or sanded enough and there was minor flaking I guess some grease or something was in the wood grain and caused it to fail. I clean everything, sand, and than wipe down again with a deglosser before I spray honestly without doing those steps I would not trust a clear coat over an old one.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Most wood finishes like ML Campbell, fuhr, target, etc say things like that.


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## ewingpainting.net (Jun 2, 2008)

Xmark said:


> are they just trying to cover their butts for liability purposes?


:no: Sherwin Williams always has your best interest at heart.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

paintcore.ca said:


> They said the same to me. They also tell us not to thin there coatings. I have sprayed 100's of gallons with out an issue on re-finishes.


i called just to find the best bonding primer and they wouldn't give me a recommendation. i know you like the BIN primer but the reason i'm going with WB lacquers is to move away from the high VOC stuff.

i know insl-x 'stix' primer is good but is doesn't sand well..it clogs my paper. i suppose i could use 'stix' and then use a softer primer on top.

have you ever used "enduragreen wb lacquer" that General Paint sells? they are going to comp me a gallon to try. it's made by CCI.

i'm also going to try their new bonding wb primer called "ideal primer". it's urethane reinforced and sticks to anything. it's also just $21/gallon. GP's plastic primer is about $40/gallon.

I can't wait until GP brings in Kem Aqua. the local Sherwin Williams rep promised me a comp gallon 3 weeks ago. very poor salesmanship from that company. he still hasn't emailed me a price list.

i'm also going to try the "breakthrough paint" from PPG. amazingly nobody around here including the reps know much about it. apparently no primer is needed.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

Kem Aqua is the best wb lacquer around...love the stuff.

I've spent some time speaking with SW tech support about Kem Aqua, 
and they also told me that. On the other hand, they told me it was more of
a latex coating than an acrylic... (???) They advised using an architectural
enamel for repaints.

However, my limited experience spraying interior trim repaints with 
Kem Aqua blending white satin has revealed some issues. I use various
primers under it, including KA+ surfacer, SW Premium Wall & Wood, and
Becker Acroma Akvasurf. I don't like the KA surfacer because it's hard to
sand...

1. KA does not like a soft substrate. It cracks over caulked joints.
This seems to be due to its extreme hardness, which I like, but 
it's a tradeoff.

2. I've had some problems with underlying old coats being pulled away
from their prior coats, creating air bubbles under the dried topcoat.
This may not have happened with an architectural enamel, not sure.

3. Sometimes long cracks (a foot or more) form in the topcoat when
applied over many old coats of oil-base paint (over a primer).

4. Sometimes there's a reaction with underlying coats, causing crazing 
or cracking.

Overall, these problems occurred in small, isolated areas. However, I 
suspect that attaining the final coating hardness, that KA offers so quickly,
requires a hard substrate where all previous coats are very well-adhered.

I haven't seen these problems when spraying new poplar trim over a wb
primer.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

more_prep said:


> Kem Aqua is the best wb lacquer around...love the stuff.
> 
> I've spent some time speaking with SW tech support about Kem Aqua,
> and they also told me that. On the other hand, they told me it was more of
> ...



many wb lacquers have issues going over caulking.i talked to a rep from general paint today and he said the same thing about their wb lacquer. the caulking has to be 100% cured in most cases.that's usually not an issue when spraying kit cupboards + doors.

i don't do new construction so i'll be using waterborne lacquers for cupboards,built-in's, Fireplace mantles and passage doors.

i've heard that the kem-aqua+ is more elastic than the original kem-aqua and is therefore more flexible and crack resistant.

the original ka is definitely harder than the new ka+ according to many users.


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## WisePainter (Dec 27, 2008)

Whoops...just found out the hard way.


dagnabit.


Got a 5 of surfacer, and a 5 of top coat as a sample.
Was told it was okay for refinish.


dagNABIIIIIT!!!!!


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## paintcore.ca (Apr 5, 2010)

WisePainter said:


> Whoops...just found out the hard way.
> 
> dagnabit.
> 
> ...


Don't worry you can use it. I do a crap load of refinish jobs with it. It's all about the prep. The stuff is nails. Has crazy bite to it too. Clean well, alcohol wipe, light coat of bin as a barrier coat, surface, then 2 coats. You should have no problems.


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## paintcore.ca (Apr 5, 2010)

If you have to use caulk you gotta let it dry over night, at least 12 hrs. I use dap. Just don't caulk the stiles and rails to the center panel. And fill cracks with timber mate.


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## Xmark (Apr 15, 2012)

paintcore.ca said:


> Don't worry you can use it. I do a crap load of refinish jobs with it. It's all about the prep. The stuff is nails. Has crazy bite to it too. Clean well, alcohol wipe, light coat of bin as a barrier coat, surface, then 2 coats. You should have no problems.


what cleaner is your first wash with? i use TSP but that might not be the best for a high production shop.


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## mcradice (Mar 19, 2011)

Clean....Dull....and Dry....works 98.5% of the time, even with wb laqueurs.


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## more_prep (Dec 7, 2009)

I also would expect no problems with kitchen cabinet repaints using kem aqua. I use a similar schedule DNA wipe, Bin or shellac, if needed, then wb surfacer, sand 400, then one to two coats. 

On trim, I have had cracking over caulk that had cured over a week, even a month, over very neatly caulked joints. I use Phenoseal, which dries pretty firm. Maybe	I'll try DAP. 

I've only had issues when repainting trim that had many old coats. In these cases, even though surface prep was excellent, the bond between underlying coats was not good enough. Unlikely this will be a problem on cabinets.

Just about any wood filler works well. I use Elmers and others.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

So long as you have good cleaning procedures, and a tie coat there is no reason to be afraid to use it.

I had issues with really cheap latex on some trim I shot in my on home. Didn't use a tie coat and shot ka primer and it softened the crappy latex. Next day it had hardened up and sanded fine.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

I am doing my first kitchen cabinet repaint job soon. My Sherwin rep recommended Kem Aqua Surfacer directly over the cabinets following proper prep. Is that a good system or do you guys forsee problems? How is the adhesion of Surfacer? The cabinets currently have a clear lacquer on them. 
I will be spraying inside the house so want to avoid chemicals if possible, but not at the expense of failures.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

I am a pro painter but first time with cabinets. I am unfamiliar with cabinet coatings.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

Technogod said:


> @Jeremy D First thing first determine the type of the existing finish on cabinetry.
> Kem aqua system is really not user friendly for refinishing situations most of the times.
> There are tons of other products you can use.
> Take a close picture of one of your door or case.Lets see what you are dealing with



Thank you for your help. Here are some pictures. I should say that I am in Canada, so my options for products are Sherwin, Benjamin Moore, Dulux, Cloverdale.
The white island bar in the middle is new. It's the colour that I'll be working with.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

Thank you. Will the type of finish affect what primer to use? Will surfacer adhere to both Lacquer and catalyst products if sanded? 
I'm using a surfprep sander and an air assisted 395 for application.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

Thank you so much for your help! I'll let you know what I find.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Jeremy D said:


> Thank you so much for your help! I'll let you know what I find.


Or you can just Prime with BIN and then topcoat with Either BM Advance, Command or PPG Breathrough. Works for me every time.


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

My sand paper is gumming up badly on this project. Is it common for cabinets to have a wax coating? I'm wondering if that is the issue I'm experiencing here. If so, will that be an issue if I am priming with BIN? I am trying to just do a light sand, but wondering if I need to cometely remove the finish?


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Jeremy D said:


> My sand paper is gumming up badly on this project. Is it common for cabinets to have a wax coating? I'm wondering if that is the issue I'm experiencing here. If so, will that be an issue if I am priming with BIN? I am trying to just do a light sand, but wondering if I need to cometely remove the finish?


This thread kind of got buried. How did you make out. They may have sprayed something like pledge on the cabinets. Either that or the finish has broken down from hand oils, or they are just really greasy. A good clean with a degreaser and partial removal of finish may be required..


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## Jeremy D (Sep 28, 2021)

The cabinets were legitimately coated with a wax finish. Once I started rubbing it down with methylhydrate the wax softened up and started coming off in sheets with a 6 in 1. The customer opted to stop the project because of all the extra time required to remove the wax. 
I did some test patches with BIN and Coverstain overtop of the wax. BIN actually adhered reasonably well, but not 100%. They would have had issues down the road. 
My first cabinet project... now I know to test for wax before agreeing to take on a project! 
Thank you for all your advice.


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