# Bubbles only where there's no tannin bleed



## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

So this is an extension of a larger issue I've had I think. We sanded these cabinet doors to 220, vacuumed, micro-fiber. The prime coat of smart prime looked great. There were some tannins that bled through but like usual were sealed in after the primer coat. The problem is I'm having blisters everywhere else on the doors where there was no tannin bleed through. The top coat is scuff-x satin.Doors were prime to the day before, and held around 65° overnight. I've used this primer and topcoat system for a couple years and had no problems until the last 2 or 3 jobs.

Has anyone ever seen it before, where there are bubbles only where there was no tannin bleed through? The distribution of the blisters on the door are exactly where there was no tannin bleed through, which I'm assuming means where we didn't send all the way through the clear coat. But the areas where we did sand all the way through the clear coat there is no problems with the blisters. I'm going to get some aqua lock and try a different primer and then recoat with the scuff x.


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## John7 (11 mo ago)

My guess would be either some sort of grease/grime or they may have used some sort of cleaning agent on the doors. Either way, did you clean the doors before sanding? I would sand out the bubbles and use something more like a cover stain opposed to a water based primer. Hope you can solve the issue.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

John7 said:


> My guess would be either some sort of grease/grime or they may have used some sort of cleaning agent on the doors. Either way, did you clean the doors before sanding? I would sand out the bubbles and use something more like a cover stain opposed to a water based primer. Hope you can solve the issue.


Thanks for the input John. I'll forgot to mention we cleaned the doors with Jasco degreaser/deglosser. I think I've determined the problem to be in the primer dry time. While the can says recoat in 1 hour, the owner of my local BM dealer said recently there had been talk of a hybrid primer like this needing 24 hours to recoat in some circumstances. That would explain why there were no issues with the areas where we sanded through the existing clear coat, as the primer would have soaked the barewood and dried quicker than the areas where they were still clear coat. 

I really do like smart prime and have advocated for it on here, but these recent problems I've been having are a pain in the butt!
.


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## John7 (11 mo ago)

fromthenorthwest said:


> Thanks for the input John. I'll forgot to mention we cleaned the doors with Jasco degreaser/deglosser. I think I've determined the problem to be in the primer dry time. While the can says recoat in 1 hour, the owner of my local BM dealer said recently there had been talk of a hybrid primer like this needing 24 hours to recoat in some circumstances. That would explain why there were no issues with the areas where we sanded through the existing clear coat, as the primer would have soaked the barewood and dried quicker than the areas where they were still clear coat.
> 
> I really do like smart prime and have advocated for it on here, but these recent problems I've been having are a pain in the butt!
> .


Ok, that makes sense with the absorption in those areas. I have used and like the flow and leveling of the smart prime. However, have had a couple problems over similar surfaces. Mainly with stain blocking and adhesion. Something like BIN shellac is nice because it dries hard so fast and the stain blocking, but is a lot nastier than a water based product to work with! Glad you got down to the bottom of it man.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

What are you sanding with again? I never use more than a 180 grit for initial scuff sand. Gives a little more tooth for primer. Surface tension? My rep said the same thing about the Stix Primer, that it's best to wait over night. Another reason I love BIN so much. Re-coating in like 20 mins.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

finishesbykevyn said:


> What are you sanding with again? I never use more than a 180 grit for initial scuff sand. Gives a little more tooth for primer. Surface tension? My rep said the same thing about the Stix Primer, that it's best to wait over night. Another reason I love BIN so much. Re-coating in like 20 mins.


We hit it with 180 on the orbital. After having similar problems trying to sand down oak grain I try to just stick with sponge sanding. But in this case there were some pretty deep indentations from the existing hinges that were being replaced, so I wanted to make sure we would minimize some of those hence using the orbital.

We did let the doors dry overnight before first coating, but even then we had the problem. Going to try a few doors in the morning, and hopefully the extra day will be all it needs. I'd love to use bin but I don't have a shop, and I'm a little hesitant to try it out in the field. One of these days hopefully!


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

John7 said:


> Ok, that makes sense with the absorption in those areas. I have used and like the flow and leveling of the smart prime. However, have had a couple problems over similar surfaces. Mainly with stain blocking and adhesion. Something like BIN shellac is nice because it dries hard so fast and the stain blocking, but is a lot nastier than a water based product to work with! Glad you got down to the bottom of it man.


Appreciate it John, . I would have to say at least as far as tannin bleed, which is my biggest stain blocking concern on cabinets, smart prime has been pretty ace. I think there are just times when it can be a bit finicky with top coats, at least with scuff x. The more I use it the less I'm starting to like it.. anyway thanks for the input!


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## lewisreed121 (Aug 24, 2020)

My theory is that the doors were grease-soiled or that they had been cleansed with a cleaning agent. I would sand out the bubbles and use a cover stain instead of a water-based primer. I'm hoping you'll be able to resolve the situation.


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## monarchski (Jun 21, 2019)

fromthenorthwest said:


> So this is an extension of a larger issue I've had I think. We sanded these cabinet doors to 220, vacuumed, micro-fiber. The prime coat of smart prime looked great. There were some tannins that bled through but like usual were sealed in after the primer coat. The problem is I'm having blisters everywhere else on the doors where there was no tannin bleed through. The top coat is scuff-x satin.Doors were prime to the day before, and held around 65° overnight. I've used this primer and topcoat system for a couple years and had no problems until the last 2 or 3 jobs.
> 
> Has anyone ever seen it before, where there are bubbles only where there was no tannin bleed through? The distribution of the blisters on the door are exactly where there was no tannin bleed through, which I'm assuming means where we didn't send all the way through the clear coat. But the areas where we did sand all the way through the clear coat there is no problems with the blisters. I'm going to get some aqua lock and try a different primer and then recoat with the scuff x.


The Aqua Lock is better IMO than the Zinnser Smart Prime. I've had a little tannin bleed with it before but a 2nd coat stopped it.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

If the bubbles are only present where the existing finish wasn’t sanded to bare wood, it could be due entrapped moisture beneath the existing film outgassing at a slower rate than areas that were sanded through, especially if the existing finish hadn’t fully bridged and sealed the pores which could result in vapor bubbles at pores. Moisture enters where the film was sanded through or where pores weren’t fully sealed.

The solution would be to wait longer before top coating and maintain constant temperature & humidity where the cabinets are being finished, ideally, more or less the same temp & humidity as the area where they were removed from. 

When in doubt, take some moisture content readings just before priming, and then again before applying top coats, and only proceed with subsequent coats when the MC has returned to the original readings. Some waterborne products I’ve used state the above mentioned on their tech sheets.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

lewisreed121 said:


> My theory is that the doors were grease-soiled or that they had been cleansed with a cleaning agent. I would sand out the bubbles and use a cover stain instead of a water-based primer. I'm hoping you'll be able to resolve the situation.


Thanks Lewis.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

monarchski said:


> The Aqua Lock is better IMO than the Zinnser Smart Prime. I've had a little tannin bleed with it before but a 2nd coat stopped it.


That's good to know thanks a lot. I've had trouble with it bleeding through on oak before but I switched to Smart prime before trying a second coat. I think I will try aqua lock from the get-go on my next cabinet set.


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## fromthenorthwest (May 2, 2012)

Redux said:


> If the bubbles are only present where the existing finish wasn’t sanded to bare wood, it could be due entrapped moisture beneath the existing film outgassing at a slower rate than areas that were sanded through, especially if the existing finish hadn’t fully bridged and sealed the pores which could result in vapor bubbles at pores. Moisture enters where the film was sanded through or where pores weren’t fully sealed.
> 
> The solution would be to wait longer before top coating and maintain constant temperature & humidity where the cabinets are being finished, ideally, more or less the same temp & humidity as the area where they were removed from.
> 
> When in doubt, take some moisture content readings just before priming, and then again before applying top coats, and only proceed with subsequent coats when the MC has returned to the original readings. Some waterborne products I’ve used state the above mentioned on their tech sheets.


That's a great point. I've only ever used a moisture meter for exterior painting in spring or fall, hadn't thought of using it on cabinets but that makes a whole lot of sense.

So if I'm hearing you right, you're saying that on the areas where we sanded to bare wood, moisture from our first prime coat is entering into the wood and then it migrates over to areas where we didn't sand to bare wood? Or are you saying that the areas that were not bare wood, where it takes longer to dry, were just simply not ready to recoated due to slower dry time? Appreciate the input.


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