# can YOU relate



## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

Since I have been reading at this forum, I feel like a terrible painter and business owner. I am truly humbled. 

I am just having some tough transitions. let me tell you-

One thing I am noticing is that I am becoming very uptight with painting. 

Jobs used to be fun, loaded with a great sense of accomplishent and usually a dramatic before and after, felt often alot of gratitude from people, jobs were mostly ranking in great completion time frames--

then, I somehow got mixed up with jobs that are too damn big for one painter--and also the new construction variety. every trade is a pig. I opened french doors today to find the finish trim guy has nailed all the frames on with the nails shooting out thru the jamb....atleast four...and I spent a long part of my day yesterday setting about 3-6 nails inside every square in coffard ceiling...IS THIS STANDARD procedure? I don't intuitively think SO.

I do more vaccuming in a day than painting. I vaccum, after I vacuum.

What I am looking for is the link to the brush talks......

I am looking for one that brushes out my trim paint...so I am not doing so much finagling, and fussing, and over brushing because it seems bristles are TOO stiff.....

I use all kinds of Purdys and just tried a wooster(willow) YUCK for trim. too stiff.

was there one called proform?(orange bristles) someone has mentioned?

thanks- your sympathies are needed as your recommendations.


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

This one? http://www.painttalk.com/f12/my-brush-better-than-yours-24/


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

damn, I have to eat my own words again.

thanks helper!


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## Workaholic (Apr 17, 2007)

anytime Sage. :thumbsup:


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

I'll cover the sympathy part.......We do not do a lot of new construction , but we have done our fair share of renovation and remodel paint work. I have seen exactly what you are talking about in this area for quite some time. We are talking about supposedly high end GCs and tradespeople who talk and sell a great job, but in practice it is very sub par compared to years ago and what I was taught and remember an appropriate job to be. And yes, they are pigs. We end up functioning not only as the paint work contractor, but as the cleaning service as well out of necessity. It is so expensive here to do anything that the emphasis is always on 'FAST"! It has to be or you can't compete and it is reflected in the workmanship. The mechanics are all gone, it's all done with laborers. The top GCs and remodelers use the cheapest subs for all the trades. I had a spackler ask me to borrow a drop cloth and a sanding pole. He was in sweat pants at the time and showed up in a honda civic. This is on a several hundred thousand dollar remodel, in a million dollar home. I could go on and on Sagebrush, I feel your pain........


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## daArch (Mar 15, 2008)

We can ALL relate Sagebrush.

This thread may make you feel a little better (if misery loves company)

http://www.painttalk.com/f14/no-respect-3679/


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

Sounds like you're spreading yourself a bit thin. You mentioned taking on jobs that might be too large in scope to keep a handle on it. Might need to reassess if those jobs are a good fit for your model, or if you need to switch it up a bit, hire a helper or something.

Gotta step back and look at the big picture sometimes when you hit that wall.


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## Different Strokes (Dec 8, 2010)

I feel it to from time to time too. I looked at a disaster of a repaint today and will have to pass on it. Decent money but every arrow seems to be pointing toward a total cluster. Far as the brush, the Orange bristle Picasso brush from proform is the smoothest I've ever used. Even that brush won't lay it down nice if your paint is too ropey though. Juice it up with some water or extender till it flows out nicely.


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## robladd (Nov 22, 2010)

CliffK said:


> I'll cover the sympathy part.......We do not do a lot of new construction , but we have done our fair share of renovation and remodel paint work. I have seen exactly what you are talking about in this area for quite some time. We are talking about supposedly high end GCs and tradespeople who talk and sell a great job, but in practice it is very sub par compared to years ago and what I was taught and remember an appropriate job to be. And yes, they are pigs. We end up functioning not only as the paint work contractor, but as the cleaning service as well out of necessity. It is so expensive here to do anything that the emphasis is always on 'FAST"! It has to be or you can't compete and it is reflected in the workmanship. The mechanics are all gone, it's all done with laborers. The top GCs and remodelers use the cheapest subs for all the trades. I had a spackler ask me to borrow a drop cloth and a sanding pole. He was in sweat pants at the time and showed up in a honda civic. This is on a several hundred thousand dollar remodel, in a million dollar home. I could go on and on Sagebrush, I feel your pain........


I can relate. The problem is the other painter. Our trade had gone from a skilled craft to unskilled labor. I see it every where and it is very sad.

I have done everything from section 8, tract, scattered, FHA VHA, and custom. What hate the most is other trades showing no regard for other crafts. 

Morale has always been my biggest issue after being a shop steward and foreman on multi million dollar paint jobs nothing would send a person home faster than breaking morale.

But it is so freaking hard when you work in a zoo with animals, also not only has materials changed so has all hand tools. They just don't make them like they use to.

I always tell the GC that wants it yesterday "do you want it fast? or do you want it to last?

The hardest thing that we deal with is when you have to throw it on, rush, giving something that they want that you dont want to be associated with. It makes you think it will follow you around.

picking and choosing your customers has become the real art of our trade or our craft, we can't even settle on what it is anymore.

ATTITUDE is everything, keep it positive. Rob


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

robladd said:


> ATTITUDE is everything, keep it positive. Rob


 Absolutely Rob:thumbsup:


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

That's one of the reasons I don't do NC...The other trades are inconsiderate jerks...You are either cleaning up after them ,moving their sh!t around or fixing a freshly painted wall or trim that they messed up...A good carpet crew will not leave a mark on your walls but some carpet crews are in such a hurry that you almost have to repaint half the walls again...I absolutely HATED NC.


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## vermontpainter (Dec 24, 2007)

NC kind of requires 5 things:

1. A crew
2. Ability to manage a crew
3. Ability to build relationships with and sequence your crew among 17 other trades
4. Ability to stick with it for 2-4 years...
5. So that you can learn how to price for #1-4

During the learning curve of these 5 things, you build your systems.


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## Bender (Aug 10, 2008)

sagebrush said:


> Since I have been reading at this forum, I feel like a terrible painter and business owner. I am truly humbled.
> 
> I am just having some tough transitions. let me tell you-


Don't let these guys rattle you. Most of them are so full of sh1t their eyes are brown.


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## AztecPainting (Jan 28, 2010)

I got your feeling but, I have been pretty happy since I decided I weren't gonna do any new construction any more for the exact same reason you mentioned (most GC's I've worked for are pigs, not loyal, disrespectful and not very good at paying the bill ohhh plus they bargain you all they can, their trades screw up your job, finishers leave 2cms gaps and expect you to fix it at no extra cost and GC's expect you to like a full tiem worker on site even if you have nothing to paint yet.) so I am out of the NC crap, although that's basically where all my contacts were. 

I had to start all over again for this year and started marketing home owners for repaints only, I was stressing out about jobs not coming in but finally all of the sudden it seem to be working, so just keep it up and don't get discourage...


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

The other trades are inconsiderate jerks...

BACK CHARGE

You are either cleaning up after them ,moving their sh!t around or fixing a freshly painted wall or trim that they messed up...

BACK CHARGE

A good carpet crew will not leave a mark on your walls but some carpet crews are in such a hurry that you almost have to repaint half the walls again...

BACK CHARGE

Looks like alot of extra money to me, once they learn the back charge rate, they tend to go a little easier. Buddy up with the GC then he will push them through, if the other subs are jerks charge them a higher rate.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

thanks for all the posts/thoughts.

Bender=very funny. my eyes are hazel thank god.

there is not an easy fix. The work is coming thru NC at the moment.

I just so happen to dislike large houses. the next one on the forefront is being build across the street. It will be for the general contractor himself and family. It is being framed now. so far the total square footage of two floors is well over 5k sq. ft.-but in the end the total will be 7k. the idea of starting this over again is overwhelming/unsatisfying.

I think I am stir crazy going to this same location for so long and the futility of new construction.

can I not look at it as positive as possible?

apparently, I am struggling with that.

Somewhere along the way I am encountering a wall in my mind.

there is no joy in my day now. there are radical, quick moments of satisfaction on smaller projects. Lets say a dinning room- removing paper, patching and priming the walls, and then a beautiful color....project then turns into additional work in something like the kitchen and the dinette...then usually a repeat call a year or so down the road...maybe the play room or exterior work.

quick and tangible gratification. on to another project.

and by the way, it is not the actual paint itself that I am having to work...it is seeing the brush/bristles being too stiff. I am figuring this out by miles of trim on new construction. what I have brushed so far with my purdy's is looking ok- I just am not relaxed with the brush. I use extenders. pro classic is a pretty beautiful looking paint--and if applied correctly is very much like a spray finish. the baseboards got a ropey look initially but are ok with additional coat and looked at first strange because of the primer/waterbase undercoat....and the rest of the trim was done with oil primer-big difference in the flow of the top coats.

Around here- I don't think I can easily find that brush. It will have to get ordered. I will call around for sure.

i don't have issues with not getting paid-but the negotiating is tricky. I feel WHITTLED on just doing "industry standards"--and most general contractors are not painters. they don't understand HOW TO get that clean, smooth, crisp, soft look. This general had not known that sanding would be a part of my work. ha ha. This would explain when i was touching up his other house he sold....why the walls in some areas were like 100 grit sandpaper.....not everywhere- but noticable with goggles.

and here in these projects it appears to be a level 3 drywall finish. so there are plenty of visible imperfections...nail pops, some tape lines wavvy , and whatever that is over there.....

I am up at 2:14 am sharing my details. thanks for your support and the complaint desk being open.

hiring someone is not going to happen. I will pray about it though. not much of a prayer person-but I am willing to be open for growth IF that is the way it IS to unfold. I don't like being held accountable for someone else's income..and workers comp, and scheduling. I think I am clear on the projects that I prefer and need to reconsider WHAT I am taking on instead, and WHY.

...like how did I get here?

cheers and happy painting.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I love the feist in the "back charge"- but do you notice psychologically that money sometimes IS NOT the factor to work happiness? I do get paid for MY TIME-end of story, if I have to roll the walls five times.

I value appreciation, I value consideration.

I value basic good thinking, which includes but not limited to:

don't lean the tools and materials against the walls BEFORE/DURING/AFTER painting.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I am ok friends with the GC. He is a charisma man- and in the end..... I play the ROLE of the BITCHY woman.  

most of these guys enjoy going back home to their wives after they spend time with me:no:


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## Mike's QP (Jun 12, 2008)

I know how you feel, you just have to slam through the job, some appreciation but never enough, you are just doing the job, not makeing somebody's dream come true like in the repaint and faux markets. When I get tired of a project I just send the B team to make the appearance, fix the little ding, paint that door that just came in etc. the A teams are bulking out the other projects, makin the money.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

If I was using ProClassic, I too would feel overwhelmed. The best brushes wont do anything for some trim paints and you are spreading some of the most difficult paint to spread and I would only hope its not going directly over MDF. I'd be pulling my hair out.

I run the vac constantly on NC, set nail holes etc. Its common and expected. A Spring set helps speed that up and keep a pair of snips to cut or pull those nails.


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## bikerboy (Sep 16, 2007)

jack pauhl said:


> If I was using ProClassic, I too would feel overwhelmed. The best brushes wont do anything for some trim paints and you are spreading some of the most difficult paint to spread.


:yes:


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

well- pro classic is not that difficult really...I use xim extender or flotrol...and sometimes a tinge of water......in the past I have brushed loads of oil so I got used to tricky/sticky.

BRUSH made ALL the difference today....corona cortez.....

the frames/jambs look awesome....

put it on and lay it off...

sometimes if it would set up faster than I wanted...I would return to do a different portion a few minutes later......just have to keep track of what you are doing.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

re read some posts and I always appreciate comments feedback/talk/input/links/jokes...etc...

the MDF came pre-primed with waterbase and I brushed a coat on and it did not turn out spankin' like the rest of the trim that was pre-primed in a catalyzed oil base......so the frames and/pre-hung door trim is beautiful.....

brushing over the mdf pre-primed water---was not a pretty site and whatever I did would not make any difference...you just have to either recoat a better primer OR additional coatings until pretty.......painting over it seemed to activate the primer.....weird....

any way for me ALL is grand after the brush which helped an incredible amount. I had spent the day before using a purdy clear cut? and then I hated that for the trim and then switched to a wooster willow- not what I wanted either...the Corona Cortez for me was not as firm as the other two.

once you get the Pro-classic on- it is beautiful.

However- I am always willing to try other paints IF someone has recommendations and the store is in my state or close to area..............................................


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

sagebrush123 said:


> well- pro classic is not that difficult really...I use xim extender or flotrol...and sometimes a tinge of water......in the past I have brushed loads of oil so I got used to tricky/sticky.
> 
> BRUSH made ALL the difference today....corona cortez.....
> 
> ...


Imagine using a paint that is easy to use with that brush. Production instantly increases. I only say proclassic is difficult in comparison to so many other trim paints so much quicker and easier to spread with a brush. Glad you were able to make some improvements with extenders and changing the brush. Its more cost associated with using ProClassic aside from labor.

I dont use any extenders in any products I use. It just seems weird putting 16 oz of flotrol (half the bottle) into a single gallon. That is costly. Proclassic isnt cheap.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

sagebrush123 said:


> re read some posts and I always appreciate comments feedback/talk/input/links/jokes...etc...
> 
> the MDF came pre-primed with waterbase and I brushed a coat on and it did not turn out spankin' like the rest of the trim that was pre-primed in a catalyzed oil base......so the frames and/pre-hung door trim is beautiful.....
> 
> ...


I take it that spraying isn't an option?


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## Rcon (Nov 19, 2009)

sagebrush123 said:


> every trade is a pig. I opened french doors today to find the finish trim guy has nailed all the frames on with the nails shooting out thru the jamb....atleast four...and I spent a long part of my day yesterday setting about 3-6 nails inside every square in coffard ceiling...IS THIS STANDARD procedure? I don't intuitively think SO.


It's a sign of the times. People are tight with cash these days so they tend to hire the lower (or lowest) priced trades. Quality work is going out the window in favor of "quick, cheap and dirty". It's what the customers seem to be demanding nowadays. Hope it doesn't stay this way for toooo long.


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't use 160z in a single gallon. 

When I start up for the day, I strain my paint and add a little spill over of extender and maybe a tinge of water....

not too expensive considering that this is only the second container I have started on for this project of 3500 sq.ft. house. 

......I also like cream in my coffee


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## sagebrush123 (Mar 11, 2011)

spraying is an option---and I do like spraying.


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