# BM Super Hide....Terrible?



## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

Painter I refer has been using BM Super Hide Flat without contracts or estimates...clients upset....
*
Is this paint as bad as it seems? 
Is it unreasonable for HOs to be asking contractor to redo jobs? 
Any recommendations on how I can help the contractor moving forward?*

Fringe of forum eligibility here - I'm a hands on realtor with a team that sells about 20-30 houses per month and I also flip houses on the side. 

I've recommended a family friend as a professional painter almost exclusively for the past 4-5 years (he's been in business for 20+ years). I'm talking hundreds of clients who have asked for his info.

In the past couple of months, I've had 2 HOs tell me they're upset with the quality of work - mainly coverage and paint quality/durability. Pictures from 1 client attached...

Apparently he's using* BM SUPER HIDE FLAT* in nearly all areas - without providing customers work orders/estimates or contracts (they didn't know what paint would be used. Knowing the $$ they spent on their homes, I suspect they'd pay more for better paint). 

*
Is this paint as bad as it seems? 
Is it unreasonable for HOs to be asking him to redo jobs? 
Any recommendations on how I can help this guy moving forward?*


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

I would never allow that to fly. They should ask him to fix it, and he should fix it. It might not be the paint. If there were bad stains underneath the pics that are show a primer such as Bin should have been used.

If he does not fix it, perhaps you should confront him and tell him that it makes you look bad, and it is not not good for your business. Buyers do not want to see stains all over the house. 

Edit: I did not notice the info under the pictures. Paint takes 30 days to fully dry. I put into every contract that abrasives should not be used for a least 30 days. Magic Erasers will destroy new paint and rubbing fresh white paint with dirty finger will leave a mark.

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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Super hide is a cheap apartment grade paint. If he used flat, it won’t be washable ever or stain resistant. I don’t think magic erasers are a good idea on any flat/matte finish paint ever. No matter what the quality level of the paint is.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

you're not in Idaho by chance are you? I think i know this painter.


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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

PACman said:


> you're not in Idaho by chance are you? I think i know this painter.


Nope! Maryland. Sounds like most agree this paint shouldn’t go in a 6,300 sf luxury home though!

Don’t want to get the guy in trouble. I also found out he doesn’t do written estimates, contracts or invoices which is illegal for a licensed contractor in Maryland.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

ct123 said:


> Nope! Maryland. Sounds like most agree this paint shouldn’t go in a 6,300 sf luxury home though!
> 
> Don’t want to get the guy in trouble. I also found out he doesn’t do written estimates, contracts or invoices which is illegal for a licensed contractor in Maryland.


Yeah, that paint should definitely not be used in a high end home. Or a low end home for that matter. Or a barn interior. At least an eggshell should be used. Flats are so 1990's.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

ct123 said:


> Nope! Maryland. Sounds like most agree this paint shouldn’t go in a 6,300 sf luxury home though!
> 
> Don’t want to get the guy in trouble. I also found out he doesn’t do written estimates, contracts or invoices which is illegal for a licensed contractor in Maryland.





> * Is this paint as bad as it seems? *


 Superhide Zero is a lower solids ultraspec500, its meant to be a inexpensive commercial paint ~$20/gallon. While I have certainly seen a fair amount of superhide and promar 400 in 1M+ homes... Regal, Ben, Aura is all I would ever spec.



> * Any recommendations on how I can help this guy moving forward?*




Time to have a sit down talk with your guy or find another painter who uses quality materials and actually takes pride in their finished work.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

So what did these clients agree to before your painter started? I can’t imagine he’d start painting if he didn’t have some kind of verbal approval from the client.

Before you lay into the painter ask him what happened. Maybe these clients beat him up on price so he used cheap paint and asked to be paid in cash. 

Maybe you need to find other painters to refer to clients looking for high quality work. 


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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

I've worked with him before too. He just asks for colors, visits site, calls back with price. They said he never asked about paint type/quality/finish, only colors. Obviously that's partly on them.

He does not provide a written quote/estimate/contract or even invoice tbh.


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## SemiproJohn (Jul 29, 2013)

ct123 said:


> I've worked with him before too. He just asks for colors, visits site, calls back with price. They said he never asked about paint type/quality/finish, only colors. Obviously that's partly on them.
> 
> He does not provide a written quote/estimate/contract or even invoice tbh.



You have been referring this guy for 4 to 5 years, and he does not provide a written quote/estimate/contract or even an invoice.


He sounds like a non-professional painter, not to mention what type of paint he has been using on nice homes.


Don't take this personally, but my experience with realtors is they want painting done yesterday and as cheaply as possible, so they can get their commissions in their bank accounts.


This guy sounds like he's working under the table. At any rate, you might consider replacing him with a professional painter who is not afraid to present proper paperwork and who insists upon using good paint, not contractor grade stuff.


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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

to be honest people, this kind of thing happens quite a lot in parts of this country. I still cringe when i think about the crappy paint most of the $3,000,000.00+ homes in San Diego were painted with. Isoflat. You could scrub it off the wall with a wet paper towel a month after it was applied. So much mud in it you actually HAD to add two gallons of water to a five'er. Covered like crazy and touched up and that is what mattered the most i guess. Then when the homeowners repainted they would throw a fit because they had to prime before they repainted them. Not just Socal either. A good portion of Columbus was painted with pretty crappy paint too.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

Every huge house in Austin I come in has PM 700 on the TRIM. Its awful.


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## Gymschu (Mar 11, 2011)

Not only is he using cheap FLAT paint, it appears to me anyway, that's he's just applying ONE coat over top of a glossier paint which leaves the voids you see in the pics. He could at least apply a 2nd coat.

His work is NOT acceptable, but, without a contract stipulating what paint to use, how many coats, cost, I mean, what do they expect? It's like going to a street corner and asking some random guy to paint for you. This is a bad situation on many levels.


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## PNW Painter (Sep 5, 2013)

Typical realatard. Why would you expect anything different. This is the type under the table, blow and go work that pisses me off and it probably piss off every other painter that runs reputable businesses and pay’s their taxes. 




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## fauxlynn (Apr 28, 2011)

PNW Painter said:


> Typical realatard. Why would you expect anything different. This is the type under the table, blow and go work that pisses me off and it probably piss off every other painter that runs reputable businesses and pay’s their taxes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, why would you expect anything different? This pisses me off, being a legit painter in Maryland. I’ve been trying to get straight painting jobs lately to no avail. I’m not cheap enough.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

If he is, on top of using cheap paint, not properly prepping ...cleaning and sanding....it can cause major issues for the new owners. 

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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

That is basically a ceiling paint he is using on the walls. Never use a flat on walls unless it's something like BM Regal or Aura. Which is a Matt, not flat. And yes there's a difference. 

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## PACman (Oct 24, 2014)

PNW Painter said:


> Typical realatard. Why would you expect anything different. This is the type under the table, blow and go work that pisses me off and it probably piss off every other painter that runs reputable businesses and pay’s their taxes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pisses off the store people too! These are the kind of painters that represent the lowest profit and the highest maintenance. They want to pay $10 for a gallon of paint and expect perfect touch-up matches in 10 minutes 5 times a week. They SUCK! And luckily now i'm independent i can tell them where to go or refuse to give them a discount. When i worked for SW and PPG i had to kiss their asses!


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

I wonder what he charged...


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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

Woodco said:


> I wonder what he charged...


$6k for probably 5,500sf.


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## Brushman4 (Oct 18, 2014)

ct123 said:


> $6k for probably 5,500sf.


There's your answer why he is using builders flat and doing bad work, either he's just a lowballer or these HO's are cheap bastards.

They should realize that for a house that big 6k is way too low for any kind of quality work and materials! Don't these people get a couple of estimates? How have the jobs he's done for you turned out?


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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

Brushman4 said:


> ct123 said:
> 
> 
> > $6k for probably 5,500sf.
> ...


I always knew he was cheap but still figured he was doing a professional job (maybe not the best but good enough for the $$). Even if he used better paint, I feel like the material cost would only go up about $500-$750. He said he used 45-50 gallons on that job.

Is Super Hide just that much faster to put on to where maybe he made more on labor? I’m sure if he told HOs it would be $500-$1,000 more for Regal they would be fine with it.


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## Pete Martin the Painter (Nov 8, 2012)

Actually, I the more expensive paints such as Ben Moores Regal Select and Aura, hide much better, are generally much easier to work with and hava a quicker redcoat time than the cheaper paints. I do not know anything about Sherwin Williams' paints.

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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

At what price point was this job?

50 gallons would be one coat on a job that size, I would think. Regal (Ben Moore premium) is about $25 a gallon more than super hide, so you're talking $1,250 more just for paint. Total materials cost with high quality paint would be around $2,500. I know labor prices vary by area, but somebody working above the boards in my area would charge roughly $7,5000 for labor. That's $10,000 total, plus sales tax.

I would bet this client said they could only afford $10,000, so this painter was using cheap flat to ensure one coat coverage and to keep price down. Flats cover better than higher sheens because they tend to have a lot of kaolin clay, diatomaceous earth, or other chalk-like substances in them to achieve a flat look (same deal with Behr Marquee, btw).

What do you think your clients would have said if this painter had submitted a written estimate detailing the materials and labor costs at a price of $20,000? That's a really rough estimate of what I would think two coats on a 6,700 sqft house would cost. Would they have thought, "Hey, this guy is professional, so this is probably reasonable for quality work," or would it have been more like, "This greedy painter must be trying to rip me off!"?


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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

BhamPainter said:


> At what price point was this job?
> 
> 50 gallons would be one coat on a job that size, I would think. Regal (Ben Moore premium) is about $25 a gallon more than super hide, so you're talking $1,250 more just for paint. Total materials cost with high quality paint would be around $2,500. I know labor prices vary by area, but somebody working above the boards in my area would charge roughly $7,5000 for labor. That's $10,000 total, plus sales tax.
> 
> ...


Couldn’t tell ya. All I know is they were there for 4 days with 2.5 painters (2 plus owner who only did a little painting). $20k would seem very high for that. I’m not in industry but they work led 8 hour days so that’s roughly 80 labor hours. At $2,500 in materials you’d have to charge professional attorney fees to get to $20k. Almost $95/hr/painter to be $10k - I doubt he pays his guys $20/hr, so he’d be killing it.

At $6k and with the paint he used, he probably took 50% profit. That’s the thing - I’m sure if he said it was $1,250 more to use quality paint (which may even lead to less labor/overhead cost for him from what I’m hearing) they’d take it - he’d make the same and we wouldn’t be in this situation.

I honestly may buy this guy out if I can find a knowledgeable painter in the area to run things - he has so much opportunity and just seems clueless as to how to run a business!

Thanks for all the feedback, btw. You guys are awesome! Great to see a professional community like this.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

ct123 said:


> Couldn’t tell ya. All I know is they were there for 4 days with 2.5 painters (2 plus owner who only did a little painting). $20k would seem very high for that. I’m not in industry but they work led 8 hour days so that’s roughly 80 labor hours. At $2,500 in materials you’d have to charge professional attorney fees to get to $20k. Almost $95/hr/painter to be $10k - I doubt he pays his guys $20/hr, so he’d be killing it.


To clarify, $20k was for two coats, which would be $5k in materials. If changing colors, eggshell or higher sheen would likely require 2 coats, but maybe you would get away with one.

80 hours is indeed pretty quick to coat 20,000 sqft of wall surface, so if that's the case, I commend him for his speed, and he certainly earned the $3k he received for his 4 days of work.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

ct123 said:


> Couldn’t tell ya. All I know is they were there for 4 days with 2.5 painters (2 plus owner who only did a little painting). $20k would seem very high for that. I’m not in industry but they work led 8 hour days so that’s roughly 80 labor hours. At $2,500 in materials you’d have to charge professional attorney fees to get to $20k. Almost $95/hr/painter to be $10k - I doubt he pays his guys $20/hr, so he’d be killing it.
> 
> At $6k and with the paint he used, he probably took 50% profit. That’s the thing - I’m sure if he said it was $1,250 more to use quality paint (which may even lead to less labor/overhead cost for him from what I’m hearing) they’d take it - he’d make the same and we wouldn’t be in this situation.
> 
> ...



Every market is different but at least in my area guys would be roughly 30k for that job almost 5x what he is bidding at just to put into perspective. At those prices no way he can do any type of quality work.


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## Woodco (Nov 19, 2016)

BhamPainter said:


> To clarify, $20k was for two coats, which would be $5k in materials. If changing colors, eggshell or higher sheen would likely require 2 coats, but maybe you would get away with one.
> 
> 80 hours is indeed pretty quick to coat 20,000 sqft of wall surface, so if that's the case, I commend him for his speed, and he certainly earned the $3k he received for his 4 days of work.


But It should never be 'one coat' cut and rolled, especially with crap paint. They make that garbage paint to be sprayed on. Thats the only way it can cover. And no matter what you agree on with the client, you should not see the old color behind the new paint, even if you agree to an economy blow and go job. 

The only time it should ever be a one coat cut and roll job, is if its the same color, which is obviously not the case. There is dark blue behind the light beige paint. Noone should ever claim they can roll one coat over that, even if it is good paint. 

I've done MANY differnet forms of painting, from high end, to cabinets, to semi trucks etc.

I've done two forms of blow and go. One was tract homes. We sprayed one coat on raw texture, but, (and I didnt realize this until recently) that we were using really good paint to pull it off in one (sprayed) coat. 

The other was apartment repaints, where we would spend two hours in a two bedroom apartment spraying the cheapest paint you could buy. BUT, its was basically a huge touch up, with the same exact paint, so we fogged it on the walls, and used cardboard to sheild everything instead of masking. I did three of those a day for piece rate.

Your painter has obviously been taught the cheapest blow and go method, which is great for you realtors.... but for a REAL paint job, you need someone else. I have an advantage, because I know how to do super quick and cheap, AND I know how to do it good, so I can tailor the paint job to suit peoples needs and budgets. I can make a killing on the crappy rentals people want a quick and easy color refresh, just because I know how to bang it out. I didnt used to make as much on the QUALITY paint jobs, because I bid them too low. Now, I know better.... 

In short, your guy should not be working for himself. If he wants to be cheap, FINE, but you cant leave walls a coat short, no matter what. The HO shouldnt have paid them in full while the walls needed another coat either, so their fault....


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

If it was walls only, I say he was right on par. For 1 coat..maybe even a little expensive..Except new owners usually want to repaint with new colours after they get in anyhow. 
I don't see any issue if this was just for astetics purposes to make the sale, but maybe that wasn't the case...
However, all that aside, he still should atleast upgrade his paint selection..to maybe ultra spec eggshell.

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## ct123 (Apr 12, 2019)

finishesbykevyn said:


> If it was walls only, I say he was right on par. For 1 coat..maybe even a little expensive..Except new owners usually want to repaint with new colours after they get in anyhow.
> I don't see any issue if this was just for astetics purposes to make the sale, but maybe that wasn't the case...
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


This was for new homeowners after they moved in.


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## jennifertemple (Oct 30, 2011)

That is about the worst paint job I've ever seen. How could that "painter" possibly have thought there would not be complaints. I expect a lot of the previous HOs were not happy, either! They just didn't bother about it and hired a real painter to do the job right. This guy, clearly, does not care about his name or the quality of his work.


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## Wildbill7145 (Apr 30, 2014)

ct123 said:


> This was for new homeowners after they moved in.



Wow. Welcome to your new home.


Think it's time to find a new painter. The one you've got would appear to be broken and it's time to cut ties. I wouldn't want my name attached to this guy even if it's as indirect as a referral.


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> If it was walls only, I say he was right on par. For 1 coat..maybe even a little expensive..


I agree that $6k for four days with three guys is a pretty good take, but four days to paint a 6700 sqft home with brushes and rollers? Even for just one coat on the walls, that strikes me as very fast. Can you get one coat on all the walls in a 1500 sqft house with three workers in one eight-hour day? I've never pulled that off, and that's actually a slower pace than the one at which this guy is moving.

Even so, most seem to agree that he should have done two coats rather than one, and with higher quality paint. Would the HO have gone for $14k for this job? That's what two coats using Regal would have cost using the same pace and pricing model.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

BhamPainter said:


> I agree that $6k for four days with three guys is a pretty good take, but four days to paint a 6700 sqft home with brushes and rollers? Even for just one coat on the walls, that strikes me as very fast. Can you get one coat on all the walls in a 1500 sqft house with three workers in one eight-hour day? I've never pulled that off, and that's actually a slower pace than the one at which this guy is moving.
> 
> Even so, most seem to agree that he should have done two coats rather than one, and with higher quality paint. Would the HO have gone for $14k for this job? That's what two coats using Regal would have cost using the same pace and pricing model.


He said 5500 Sq ft. not 6700..Just to clarify. But 1 coat, 3 guys no furniture or prep work.. easy.

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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> He said 5500 not 6700..Just to clarify. But 1 coat, 3 guys no furniture or prep work.. easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


Okay, thanks, I guess he said the house was 6700 sqft, but I just noticed that he said the painted area was more like 5500 sqft. Four days is still pretty fast, IMO, for a job that size. Assuming the walls are 3x the floors square footage, that's still like 16,000 sqft of paintable area, so he's doing more than 200 sqft an hour. It was a repaint, so I don't see how there would be zero prep, but from the look of the finished product it seems pretty clear that needed prep was not done, so there's that.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

BhamPainter said:


> Okay, thanks, I guess he said the house was 6700 sqft, but I just noticed that he said the painted area was more like 5500 sqft. Four days is still pretty fast, IMO, for a job that size. Assuming the walls are 3x the floors square footage, that's still like 16,000 sqft of paintable area, so he's doing more than 200 sqft an hour. It was a repaint, so I don't see how there would be zero prep, but from the look of the finished product it seems pretty clear that needed prep was not done, so there's that.


Exactly, and 200 sq. Ft of wall is only an 8×12 wall. If you can't paint that in an hour, there's something wrong wit ya! Lol.

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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Exactly, and 200 sq. Ft of wall is only an 8×12 wall. If you can't paint that in an hour, there's something wrong wit ya! Lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk


8x12 is 96 sqft.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

BhamPainter said:


> 8x12 is 96 sqft.


Oh right. Haha. I mean 25ft ×8 . Still easily doable

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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

200 sqft is easily doable once you're all set up, floors dropped, and walls prepped, provided it's uninterrupted wall, but that's not usually the reality. Looking at it another way, that's four 10x12 bedrooms (350 sqft of wall each) in seven hours. I'm not saying is impossible, it's just really fast.


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## seattle_jerry (May 21, 2018)

I do about 500 to 700 sqft/hour rolling empty offices with cut in ceilings for the actual painting aspect. 200 would be an occupied space with furniture in the way

Are you sure he is even licensed?


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## BhamPainter (Mar 6, 2013)

seattle_jerry said:


> I do about 500 to 700 sqft/hour rolling empty offices with cut in ceilings for the actual painting aspect. 200 would be an occupied space with furniture in the way
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure he is even licensed?


That's 700 sqft/hr including cut-in? That does surprise me.


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