# SW: all surface enamel over oil?



## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

The sales reps and employees at my local SW are telling me you can put the product "All Surface Enamel" over oil if you scuff sand it first.

Sounds somewhat unlikely, but has anyone does this?


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

The latex or oil version? I use a lot of that product. No way I would try it.


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## TJ Paint (Jun 18, 2009)

why risk it


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## Dunbar Painting (Mar 19, 2010)

Well basically that is the only reason I WOULD try the product. Otherwise I am happily priming and painting with HP2000 from General Paint.


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## DanielMDollaPainting (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't see why not if you are putting oil over oil. I would sand though. 
My SW rep is telling me not to prime with oil to topcoat with latex. He says "that is how my pappy taught me how to paint too but with Duration you don't need to prime and it will save you time". I'm a little skeptical. The manager said sure prime if it is a lot of bare wood, but if it is only a little just go over it twice with the Duration.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Dunbar Painting said:


> The sales reps and employees at my local SW are telling me you can put the product "All Surface Enamel" over oil if you scuff sand it first.
> 
> Sounds somewhat unlikely, but has anyone does this?


I'm in the same boat...I've got some kitchen cabinets to spray and they have an oil based semi-gloss finish...I purchased some Insl-x Cabinet Coat and it says to spray straight over oil with zero problems and no need to priime..Of course they advise to scuff up the surface first...It is a urethane based product so that may be a little different than a pure acrylic.


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## 6126 (May 9, 2010)

JoseyWales said:


> I'm in the same boat...I've got some kitchen cabinets to spray and they have an oil based semi-gloss finish...I purchased some Insl-x Cabinet Coat and it says to spray straight over oil with zero problems and no need to priime..Of course they advise to scuff up the surface first...It is a urethane based product so that may be a little different than a pure acrylic.


Not to highjack the thread, but I'd like to know more about the Cabinet Coat. Maybe start a thread after you use it and post how well it works for you. My main intrest would be durability and of course the actual quality of the finish too.


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## Paint and Hammer (Feb 26, 2008)

Woodland said:


> Not to highjack the thread, but I'd like to know more about the Cabinet Coat. Maybe start a thread after you use it and post how well it works for you. My main intrest would be durability and of course the actual quality of the finish too.


I believe Rcon has used and likes this product...may want to PM him.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

I have been painting 26 years and studied Engineering for 3 years highschool and 2 years college. So, my mind is very interested in the technical end and real testing.

I would not hesitate with ICI deflex going over oil, or even new metal doors--but need 3 to 7 days to cure. My tests show any Ben More latex adhering primer not to work over new factory primed man doors, and failure on advanced alkyd of ICI. SW metal latex is horrid with adhesion. Per specs I would guess that SW products have 400 psi adhesion with DTM and All purpose: but cure time is key, since 3 month cure means all could get peeled off before 3 month cure. SW, I would test first.

I had hard, cured oil doors 2 years ago, and needed a no fume/flamable coating that flowed well. I did tests, but nothing would stick except ICI deflex, which wouldn't level the way I needed. My test 2 year earlier had cabinet coat one of the few products that looked and felt as level and hard as an oil eggshell. But the adhesion was not there. 

Another problem with latex is once you get the killer film that is hydrophobic, further coats of a water base is impossible, since they will only fish eye. You know you got a great film only when the subsequent coats of water borne bead up like rain water on a new car finish. 

Thanks EPA.

Note, all my prep is power sand, and lacquer thinner wipe with clean rag.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

I am using now alkyd acrylic by SW, the flow is great, the spread great. But hardness and adhesion is not there.

Stay the HE double hockey sticks away from SW xp oil. It is an acrylic resin in a mineral spirits base with piss poor adhesion. So, you second coat doesn't fish eye, but will wrinkle the first coat if you don't xim prime under it as the solvents will attack the film. the results is 4x the VOCs released as a result of the brainless regulations.

Shercril semigloss or gloss, is a great product with 2.5 times the adhesion and salt resistance of an oil. And 3 year sunlight. At only 77$ a gallon, it is worth the extra over an industrial enamel outside. however, at $200 a gallon, a two part urethane is worth it since the salt, sun is 14x that of the oil and only 4x the price.

Oils mildew more outside, the UV resistance is only about 1 year to burn to flat, they don't breath, loose adhesion and flexibility in only 6 to 7 years. This is great if you have no conscience since they look great for 6 years as a primer. But all in all, the term exterior oil is an oxy-moron. However, some portion of the outside primer NEEDs to be OIL, %20 as a formula. The straight acrylics don't cut it, by and large. But if I had to choose on my house with oil priming and just 2 coats duration, I would avoid the oil since any oil primed film will fail in 7 years, gauranteed, while the no oil film will last far longer, but will be more preparation sensitive.

As far as it goes, though, interiors NEEEEED oils to look and feel good. People type on plastic key pads, talk on plastic phones, have plastic glasses, etc. People are experts on how plastic should feel. The paint manufacturers fail to grasp this and put rubber in a can, hoping people will mistake it for a hard plastic.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

degarb, you are the kind of person I want painting my house. If your customers only knew what you go through to provide them with the best possible finish.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

Woodland said:


> Not to highjack the thread, but I'd like to know more about the Cabinet Coat. Maybe start a thread after you use it and post how well it works for you. My main intrest would be durability and of course the actual quality of the finish too.


They suggest to use a HVLP ..That's what I'll do...I will roll and back brush the cabinet body on site...Once back brushed it amazingly levels out like a sprayed finish...Oddly if you just roll it,a stipple textured finish is produced..So, always brush it out.


*Spray: 
*Thin with up to 8 oz per gallon of clean water. For HVLP, use a #12 air cap and needle.
If spraying with an airless or conventional sprayer, atomization could infuse the product with air
that may become entrapped in the coating. For that reason, thin with up to 8 oz per gallon of
clean water, dial the pump pressure down as much as possible and use a 019-021” tip. Multiple​thin coats will provide better results than one heavy application
​


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

I will also add, before I run to paint, that the national park service came to same conclusion as I on exterior oils.

I did try silcone alkyds along side industrial enamels. The extra silicone might mean 2 years sunlight v. 1 year. But at year 3, both were flat and there was not enough a diff. to justify cost or slow drying. 

ICI advanced alkyd seems to not do well in sunlight (nothing like there 20 year label), more like 2 or 3 year sunlight to flat. But deflex looks great for about 5 years, but dies to a flat on year 6. This is a great improvement over an oil. I have one house on sunny side I did with Devflex over oil in 2001 (dark brown, will burn hand on touch in summer). Still looking good, but flat now, doubling the 6 year paint cycle of the oil. 

That said, I think side by side with duration, deflex will blow it away for color and gloss retention. Duration is a great 4 year paint: it flattens and fades like any other paint in 4 years; and it notorious for peeling since a $100 a gallon paint put over a loose paint chip = a loose paint chip with $100 paint on top.


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## jack pauhl (Nov 10, 2008)

degarb. If i read it here or experience it first hand, it really makes you question testing methods.


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## JoseyWales (Jan 8, 2011)

degarb said:


> I am using now alkyd acrylic by SW, the flow is great, the spread great. But hardness and adhesion is not there.
> 
> Stay the HE double hockey sticks away from SW xp oil. It is an acrylic resin in a mineral spirits base with piss poor adhesion. So, you second coat doesn't fish eye, but will wrinkle the first coat if you don't xim prime under it as the solvents will attack the film. the results is 4x the VOCs released as a result of the brainless regulations.
> 
> ...


 
What was your adhesion test for the cabinet coat?...I'm curious.

I was going to prime the cabinets first with "stix" from insl-x but the BM store owner said it was unnecessary when using "cabinet coat"....The manufacturer also says that "Cabinet Coat" will adhere to oil based finishes..And they manufacture "stix" primer....

Thanks, but I'll trust the manufacturer in this case.


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## Paradigmzz (May 5, 2010)

jack pauhl said:


> degarb, you are the kind of person I want painting my house. If your customers only knew what you go through to provide them with the best possible finish.



I think we have a love conection...:whistling2:


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

Obviously, finger nail scratch off is unaccepetable, but using dime too. A week should be max time alloted for a scratch resistant cure (lockers, need quicker cure on mens lockers of clubs tile clad needed 1 to 2 month before dime resistant, while ICI 235 bar rust and 224 worked well.), per devflex cure (I assume Shercrill would bite immediately.)

No, cabinet coat would not bite into my cabinet doors, neither any ben moore latex primers, even after 2 weeks. The alkyd interior primer bit immediately. But solvent was not an option since they were to be refinished in my basement in winter. If you can go solvent primer, do it, unless you have a finish Cabinet Coat will bind to FOR SURE. My solution was a bit unconventional, so I won't post it. You could try deflex, I think they have a lower luster, now days. But you probably wont get the film qualities needed for cabinets (acrylic polymers of devflex, like on most latexes, would likely rebind doors shut, called blocking). (best finish would be a lacquer, but water born, which I read once work well.) Or you could make your own Urethane waterborne with more urethane than Cabinet coat for a better bind. 

Again, it is dependant solely on how tough the film you are coating. I have managed to spray cabinets with ICI eggshell advanced alkyd, with no priming and only sand and clean. I don't think I would attempt this again with this product with same zeal and lack of caution, knowing what I know now. 

Labels are written by marketers and bean counters. Specs, if you can get any which are comprehend-able (only SW specs are readable, though spotty), at least tell you a little and allow apples to apples comparison. Bottom line, don't trust labels, and less sales people. Always test first.


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## Drunk Painter (Apr 29, 2011)

Some years back I used SW latex bonding primer on metal frames which were previously painted with oil enamel. We cleaned all of the frames with dirtex (must be clean) spray cleaner and sanded all of the frames with paper. The bonding primer worked perfect. We actually did a test (on a section of a door frame) and used some interior oil primer and the bonding primer and waited a day and did a scratch test and the oil primer didn't hold up as well as the bonding primer. I would also like to say allow the bonding primer an additional day to dry before applying the finish coat. One down side to the bonding primer its expensive and the cure time is longer (we found that it needs time to bond) but it worked.


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## Drunk Painter (Apr 29, 2011)

I have to say that the best oil base interior primer is Benjamin Moore's Enamel Underbody #217 the best. Covers the best and dries great. If using oil base satin impervo over it just add a qt of the satin oil in a gallon and the holdout in sheen on the finish coat is excellent. This primer sands with 220 paper like glass and the results are super. It will kill stains as well. It sticks to.


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## degarb (Apr 30, 2011)

Drunk Painter said:


> I have to say that the best oil base interior primer is Benjamin Moore's Enamel Underbody #217 the best. Covers the best and dries great. If using oil base satin impervo over it just add a qt of the satin oil in a gallon and the holdout in sheen on the finish coat is excellent. This primer sands with 220 paper like glass and the results are super. It will kill stains as well. It sticks to.


Yes, I think that was the primer I tested on my cabinet doors of 2008, which bit with no issue, unlike the Cabinet coat. My problem was I working in a confined and inhabited area (with infants) and needed a quick dry time and no odor.

I didn't test other oils against the BM. I know there is a huge difference in Water borne primers and trim enamels and clears. But, do other oil primers fall down (sw, akzo nobel, ppg)? (I have been let down by cheap biglots oils and one generic oil satin varnish: stick with minwax satin. )


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