# Ceramic Additive = Insulation?



## slickshift

From Heidi Baker of BeJane.com (woman's home improvement site)

Mix a nontoxic ceramic powder into your paint to reduce the amount of heat passing through your walls to the outside

"The ceramic particles in the additive create a radiant barrier that reflects heat back into the room...and once you put it on, the walls are insulated for good"

Whaaaaa?


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## Wolverine

I saw this somewhere today as well... 

The truth is... if you can add enough ceramic microspheres... AND... then put the coating on thick enough... You may get SOME benefit... 

However... I can't see a time when a homeowner or other residential use will be able to acheive an meaningful amount of insulatory value...

:no:


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## Rich

*insulatory*

this is officially my favorite word as of now :notworthy:


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## slickshift

I can't believe how much these DIY/HI sites/shows push crap they find/hear like it's fact
Now I'm going to get requests for this garbage

Ah well...
Thanks for the input...and the Word Of The Day


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## Nathan

The "Never Paint Again" guys that were around me in Florida used ceramic paint and this was one of their big sales pushes... that the homeowner would actually save money by using their product. It made my stomach turn. 

The fact is that they typically charged anywhere from 3 to 10 times the amount I charged for the same paint job just because of this never paint again ceramic paint.


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## slickshift

Nathan said:


> The "Never Paint Again" guys that were around me in Florida used ceramic paint and this was one of their big sales pushes...


Ahhh...those guys that seem to be folding up and skipping town?
Makes sense

This Q has popped up on the DIY forums this week

The power of the press...dang....
I'll bet they are giggling like little schoolgirls at the additive factory


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## wannabe

Hi All,

Yeah, I agree the slick sales sharks with the "never paint again" crap have given ceramics a bad name. However, taken only on its scientific premise, the insulation characteristic is something we shouldn't ignore. 

Ceramic micro-particles do seem to impart more durability and scratch resistance to paints. I've studied this subject with fascination and here are some of my findings:

a) There are solid ceramic particles that help mostly with durability.

b) Hollow or evacuated ceramic micro-spheres help the most with creating a heat shield. The evacuated ceramic micro particles have a vacuum at their core, and since heat can't travel through a vacuum, it stands to reason these ceramics would give heat less of a path.

A further study of all these ceramics is something I intend to partake of. I invite all interested to contribute. There are benefits to our environment, and we would also be able to sell energy conservation to our clients. Furthermore, the homeowners that would go for this would also pay better.

I've read studies promoted by some of the folks selling these products and don't know how much of it is slick marketing. I would love to take an area and paint it with before/after temperature readings. 

The government gives tax credits to businesses that meet certain ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers) qualifications. A generous tax credit per square foot is a very good reason to invest in new technology. If ASHRAE allows for these money-saving qualifications....why not for the painting industry, if we could prove there are substantial energy savings from using ceramics?

Imagine this: Your clients would dearly welcome this type of paint job, while the government issues them tax credits AND they also save on energy ---> win/win/win !!!

On a closing note: I don't think present regulations apply to paint coatings as an ASHRAE qualifier. However, the paint industry is quite big and I could see a serious effort to ask for inclusion. Furthermore, the time is right for this technology - and if does what it claims - it couldn't be "greener."


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## Wolverine

Hi wannabe,

I've done work in this area for over a decade. The 'testing' aspect can be the difficult part. I'll try to help you with some direction for yours...



> I've read studies promoted by some of the folks selling these products and don't know how much of it is slick marketing. I would love to take an area and paint it with before/after temperature readings.


This approach will not really give you the answers you are looking for. First, what you really care about is the insulatory value. Taking before and after temperatures would be more likely to give you the IR reflective difference. In the past, I have taken those 'insulative coatings' and coated paint cans, pots, and beakers (you've got to make sure the paint is applied evenly and as thick as the manufacturer recommends). Paint at least 3 'beakers' and have at least 3 unpainted 'beakers' (all beakers must be identical). Fill a large container with ice water. Fill all 6 'beakers with boiling water (from the same pot... identical amounts). Have a temp guage in each beaker. Place all 6 beakers in the ice water and track the time and temperature to graph. Repeat the test with the exception of switching the ice water & hot water (it's harder to place the beakers in boiling water so you just have to settle for hot). 

If the coating truly has insulative properties it will hold the temperature in the coated beaker longer than than it will hold in the uncoated beaker. You do 3 each to minimize the effects of stuff like imperfect forming of the beakers and imperfect coating of the beakers... Obviously this is not all-inclusive but is a starting point for you... 

Have fun...


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## wannabe

Hi Wolverine,  

Thanks, sure beats painting a large area. Yet and still, how would the results of the measurements be translated into meaningful R values?

I hadn't checked in a while and it sure is good to get some input.


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## slickshift

wannabe said:


> ....how would the results of the measurements be translated into meaningful R values?


I have checked into it and it is absolutely impossible for a paint to have an actual R value as per the nature of paint and the definition of R


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## Tmrrptr

Ok Dude, what were the results of that test?

How many mils of which product does it take to achieve a significant R rating of insulatory value.

I'm confident reflective qualities could be accomplished in less, would they not?

...If a superconductor can pass high current, what is superpaint?
but that's apples and beets, isn't it...
r


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## wannabe

Tmrrptr said:


> Ok Dude, what were the results of that test?
> 
> How many mils of which product does it take to achieve a significant R rating of insulatory value.
> 
> I'm confident reflective qualities could be accomplished in less, would they not?
> 
> ...If a superconductor can pass high current, what is superpaint?
> but that's apples and beets, isn't it...
> r


 
I phoned/wrote one of the manufacturers down in Florida asking them a few questions about their paint. The receptionist directed me to their marketing dept. and I've never received a reply from them. I identified myself as a painting pro, but it seems they just want to sell their product to homeowners.

I've got 3M's tech. literature on the ceramic particles and I wanted to make sure I knew what I was dealing with. I'm going to contact their sales dept. next week, perhaps I'll have better luck.


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## Tmrrptr

Great!, Wannabe...
Will be good to see what info you come up with.

Hopefully the Epoxy Dude will tell us more of what he thinks or knows.
He's at the cutting edge of formulating these space-age products.
r


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## Wolverine

This is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)

Since I don't calculate these things everyday... I don't really remember all of the calculations. I have to go back to a textbook to remember. If you poke around on the internet you should be able to figure it out. Basically, you need to look at the difference between the temperature on both sides of the coating, the time differential, and the coating thickness. <- I'm probably leaving something out... 

The tests I laid out about will get you going but won't account for radiant heat reflection... 

Basically, I'm going to expect that you will find that it takes a fair amount of thickness to acheive any significant R value...


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## nlpaint

This is the thread that got my attention.

I have all the info and documentation about the product because
they want me to sell the product in my region.

Because they say it's Nasa technology involved people believe
the story. I myself have some distant.
Although the sample they gave me (a steel plate coated at one side with the product) feels different in temperature. More than I could imagine because of the slightly difference in surface structure.

I found some information about research of the product in paint,
and only found something official about the fast drying surface of the paint,
and therfor no fungus can get any grip on it.
I'n dutch it is called a 'hygrische diode'.


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## cole191919

http://www.insuladd.com/

The product NLpaint is talking about is called Insuladd. I believe its a newer product and its interesting to read up on this stuff. Although I have never tried this stuff myself nor do I plan to in the near future its a good read. I have kind of adapted the "see it to believe it" mentality for this product.


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## Z paint

hopefully someone keeps following up on this because i am interested...we have the power to debunk these marketing ploys out of the box and not let these creeps make money on lies or if it works we could speed up innnovation and make the product well known...and most costumers could be convinced to get a repaint with this....more work for all of us.


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## Z paint

i hope somebody figures this one out soon.....


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## cole191919

Well, just bought a new house and I contacted a supplier near me for this Insuladd product. Thought I would give it a test run on one of my rooms once they are reno'd. Although I really want to know if this works. I dont have a frickin thermalvision camera, so unless I repaint the whole house in this stuff, I won't know if its cutting down my heating costs.


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## Tmrrptr

I just discovered this, elsewhere...
Insulation paint?

<<A building materials chain Placemaker in New Zealand thru the dist. Matrex Cold Patch is selling a nanotech coating that is water based that at 5 mil dry thickness has a 60 degree temperature block (paintable insulation)called Nansulate.I've used it in my house that was built in 1927.I'm about 3/4 done on interior and we've dropped our heating and cooling bill about 30% and that is with heating and cooling an extra 450 sq ft of upstairs rooms we normally don't heat or cool unless we have company.But I wanted to see how it preformed.I'm a painter by trade and I like to use a new product before my customers.They have being using Nansulate to spay the underside of roof deckings in the attic and getting a 40-50 temp drop.The company has also stated they are releasing a epoxy base product for marine and oil and gas etc reducing the CO2 emissions from a home by painting is a pretty simple solution plus the added reduced energy bill and even if someone doesn't believe in GW I would think lower energy cost would "Foster" a smile.Nansulate.com for researching product Nansulate from Industrial Nanotech.I'm from Kansas USA you and yours take care.>>

I grabbed the above post from TOD as it referred to insulating qualities of paint, which we had discussed here. I've made no verification of the presentation.


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## PressurePros

There are similarly marketed products for deck restoration being pushed at three times the high end rate for deck staining. They are offering 25 year guarantees and the public is eating it up. Marketing at its best. Seems most people forget to say "show me pictures of a few 20 year old decks with this stuff on it". If they did the research, there aren't any because the products have only ben around a few years. I have seen the decks after two years and they look like crap. There's no turning back. These products petrify the wood. Once you use them, you own them. Replacement is the only option.


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## Z paint

wonder if somebody like wolverine could help verify this...i want to believe it ....but it sounds a little to good to be true


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## Wolverine

> wonder if somebody like wolverine could help verify this...i want to believe it ....but it sounds a little to good to be true


Verify what?

Oh... PS... I'm havin a hard time keeping up here... PM me if you respond so I'll get back to this thread... Thanks!


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## homeprotex

Hi,

I've used products from 3 manufacturers of this stuff. Only found one that worked. Did some small tests. When I found one that did work I looked into their product more.
I then used a specialty product in my attic. Dropped the temp by 23 degrees on average. I also finally painted the outside of my own house...and used the additive stuff in that. My results were fantastic so these are products I offer my customers as options.

I found someone who did tests somewhat similar to what I did on this website:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1334-nasa-insulation-experiment-results.html

Chris


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## mistcoat

We got this one here in the UK.

Igoe International - Insulating, insulation, improve with Thermilate insulation additive for all paints
Insulating Paint Additive, Insulating Paint, Eco Paint Insulation, Energy Saving Paint 

Some of the facilities it has been tested at are over there with you fella's, so it is probably the same/similar stuff in different packaging.

I've painted the inside of my work boots with it, works a treat:whistling2:


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## nEighter

all the research I have done on these ceramic, glass bead paints say it doesn't work.

Here is an article I posted in the E-Barrier thread:

A Low-Emissivity Coating That Really Works: ENN -- Know Your Environment


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## Wallnut

*bringing it back*

I've been hoping this is real... and I found this... doesn't really give me any numbers I'm still looking for but it to me at least lends a little more credibility to the brand seeing as how some have said its a "claim" to be associated with nasa. 
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/green_paint.html


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## NCPaint1

Thanks wall for bringing this back up. A while ago I remember someone coming in the shop giving me the sales pitch on something similar. I believe it was something similar to the coating used on the heat shield on the space shuttle. I remember that it was expensive, that I remember for sure. It may work great on the space shuttle, but the jury's still out ( for me at least ) on the cost vs benefit in a residential application.


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## Wallnut

NCPaint1 said:


> Thanks wall for bringing this back up. A while ago I remember someone coming in the shop giving me the sales pitch on something similar. I believe it was something similar to the coating used on the heat shield on the space shuttle. I remember that it was expensive, that I remember for sure. It may work great on the space shuttle, but the jury's still out ( for me at least ) on the cost vs benefit in a residential application.


same here... but i figured this at least set one thing straight.
I am hoping someone does some real testing that i can trust and soon because this would be huge. 

i dont see how its so hard to test... the stuff is about 10 a gallon here... would be well worth it if it works.


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## NCPaint1

The cost was considerably more than $10/per from what I remember. Maybe the cost has come down significantly, or it was a different product. I cant remember. 

The product that I was pitched, was also recommended for attics. The underside of the roof, basically. Helped regulate temps, or so they said. 

As long as the benefit outweighs the cost, its worth it....regardless of cost.


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## Paint Gods

We have a patent pending on our material. We Took a temperature reading on a property in Los Angeles in the summer 2008. The tile temperature was 147 degree (black roofs absorb heat) the underside of the attic on the untreated plywood was 127 degree. Within a few hours the temperature was reduced to 88 degree and after it cured and was dry the temperature settled at 96 degrees. That was a 31 degree temperature swing. The AC would start up around 10 am in the summer, now it doesn't come on until the early afternoon. 

We don't recommend painting attics in the summer afternoon because of the possibility of heat stroke. We were working on a neighbor’s property and this client was going to leave. We can spray an attic in just a few hours and our equipment was already there. It is important to keep the cold water and Gatorade coming.


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## Paint Gods

PressurePros said:


> There are similarly marketed products for deck restoration being pushed at three times the high end rate for deck staining. They are offering 25 year guarantees and the public is eating it up. Marketing at its best. Seems most people forget to say "show me pictures of a few 20 year old decks with this stuff on it". If they did the research, there aren't any because the products have only ben around a few years. I have seen the decks after two years and they look like crap. There's no turning back. These products petrify the wood. Once you use them, you own them. Replacement is the only option.


We had a hemisphical spectral & reflective test report prepared by Atlas Material Testing Solutions of Phoenix AZ. _“This report presents results of total emittance and spectral reflectance measurements on the following three specimens; New, 3 ½ years, and 10 ¾ years.” _*Cool It maintained 90.7% of its original solar reflectance properties almost 11 years later.*
*Atlas Material Testing Solutions **Report No.: 5335300 4/11/**01*​​_“Energy Star is pleased to welcome you as an Energy Star partner.”_
*Energy Star Labeling Branch **Ann Bailey, Chief 7/20/01*​​​


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## masterblaster

paintgods,thats pretty impressive,send me a link to the msds for this material


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## PRC

masterblaster said:


> paintgods,thats pretty impressive,send me a link to the msds for this material


I dunno if that will happen given the date on his last post.


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## masterblaster

that sucks,do pm mesgs have email alerts here,i cant even see the pm tab to send one?


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## Wee Willy

I posted this elsewhere but it is relevant here as well. My background is that I was part of the Heat island Effect Initiative in the 1980s and my area of research was with 3M Microspheres. They proved to be extremely effective but only if correctly proportioned, mixed and applied. Please read the following for an admittedly overly-long posting on the subject:
“The coating carrier is determined by the surface/substrate and the coating desired are the major determining factor. For general applications on roofs I prefer whatever coating that is recommended by the coating teckies. For shingles I prefer elastomeric coatings or even a general Acrylic Latex. The two major factors there are reflectance and elongation with the first being of major importance. For brick siding I prefer coatings designed specifically for that substrate. For metals I choose based upon the surface to be coated and the maximum temperature that the coating will be subjected to. There are coatings that will fare quite well with a continuous temperature up to 1500 deg, F. The degree of insulation is determined by the total coating thickness with 100-250 mil being common for the latter. Since I last posted I have re-discovered the video that most effectively and graphically demonstrates the insulative value of a well-engineered insulative coating. The product is Hi-Temp 707 and if one should perchance enter that into the Google Search Engine as “Hi-Temp 707+Video” they will be treated to a very impressive demonstration that for once and all times will negate the claims that there is no such thing as an insulative coating. HOWEVER, the claims by some that a pint of ceramic chips in a 5-gallon pail of paint has any insulative value is pure and simple BS. The “microspheres” must be carefully chosen and the proportions must be very carefully and accurately calculated, measured and applied. The major factor is that the coating serves only as the MATRIX for the Ceramic or Borosilicate Microspheres as well as having acceptable adhesion and protective characteristics. The goal is to incorporate as many microspheres into the coating as possible without negating the protective factor of the application. There are many other factors to be considered but that would take up too much space and bore everyone to tears. In closing, I would submit that in one test I used a carrier/coating that was super-high temperature tolerant; it was made up of a carrier that will vitrify (turn to a glass-like matrix) with suspended Zinc in it. The coating was designed for applications on large industrial exhaust stacks. We left out the Zinc and replaced it with 3M Ceramic Microspheres. The exhaust stack temperature went from a median of approximately 875° F. to 103° F. and the life expectancy of the stacks went from 2 ½ years to 35 years after we externally and internally blasted and coated them and then heat-cured the coating simply by running the engines …several 1,000 horsepower Worthington Gas Compressor engines. If you would rather just see the video mentioned above, go to 



. To view a technical mixing and application video, go to 



. To see a Tech-Sheet on the Hi-Temp 707 HB (High Build) product see http://www.sgcoatings.com/Doc/HT707.pdf. But remember that ANY coating that is serviceable in the application at hand can be converted to an “Insulative Coating” with the appropriate incorporation of the 3M Microspheres appropriate to that application. And remember that the actual chemical coating just become the MATRIX for the syntactic foam you will create. But the color becomes a factor when the material is sued as an insulative factor for any structure.”


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## [email protected]

I have personally seen this product (the one they say NASA uses on its shuttles)sprayed on a steel tank holding 150 degrees Fahrenheit animal fat. Outside it was barely warm to the touch.


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