# Warning!! Let gel stains dry for 24 hrs minimum before applying WB clears



## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

BM recently released the new N-genex compatable Stays Clear. I just tried it on a new oak vanity. I used Old Masters gel stain the day before. Applied first coat of Stays clear. Waited 4 full hours in 72 degree heat. Tried to lightly hand sand with 220. Instead of knocking down the horns, the finish just rolled up completely off the wood in thin strands. The can says it's safe to recoat after 2-3hours. Temp and humidity were not an issue. Be careful with this stuff. It looks like overnight dry required before sanding. It's too bad, I really liked to old formula.


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## right? or right now? (Dec 15, 2011)

Which were you using? H gloss , LL, or the new flat?


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

*update*

It was the LL sheen. I was last out on the site on Friday. That is when we brushed the first coat of finish. I planned on waiting over the weekend to let it get good and crispy before lightly sanding a brushing the second coat. I got a call today that it still felt soft and rubbery and that blue tape removed the finish. I will wait until I see it myself, but it looks like I will be starting over on this one. At least it’s only one door and two drawer fronts. 

Don’t get me wrong, I love my Benjamin Moore products. I’m sure they will be very generous in taking care of this for me. I’m only sad that I have apparently lost my go to WB clear. Does anyone else have another favorite WB clear they would like to recommend.


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

I tested before it was released and thought it was a decent replacement. I actually blogged about it. Granted the magnifying glass was done on a sample and not production. I did test it over an oil stain as well, didn't get a usable pic.

I wonder if they have plans for a oil/wb clear. I like advance.


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## CliffK (Dec 21, 2010)

ExcelPaintingCo said:


> BM recently released the new N-genex compatable Stays Clear. I just tried it on a new oak vanity. I used Old Masters gel stain the day before. Applied first coat of Stays clear. Waited 4 full hours in 72 degree heat. Tried to lightly hand sand with 220. Instead of knocking down the horns, the finish just rolled up completely off the wood in thin strands. The can says it's safe to recoat after 2-3hours. Temp and humidity were not an issue. Be careful with this stuff. It looks like overnight dry required before sanding. It's too bad, I really liked to old formula.


 Are you certain the gel stain was dry enough? Waterbornes over gel stains can be finicky. The gel has to be REALLY dry before coating especially if it wasn't rubbed into a raw wood product. If it was heavy at all I always allow a couple days in between if that is to be the system. Sometimes you can cheat death by adding a barrier coat of an alcohol based sealer over the gel. The sealer is a _little_ more forgiving(from a bonding perspective)than the waterbornes.
That being said, I haven't tried the new Stays Clear. I would not be surprised if Benjamin Moore once again rolled out a product before all the kinks were worked out. I would try a sample or control if you will other than the project where you let the gel dry more or add the barrier coat and see what happens. Obviously if the same thing happens it's on BM, if not, it could have been a less than 100% dry gel stain.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

Well we have a SW rep here now, should dig up a Benny rep too


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I just used some last night at my house, didnt notice any issue. Although I was applying it over cured penetrating stain. I too am wondering if the Gel Stain wasnt dry enough. Ive noticed that the Old Masters Gel seems to take longer than the 24hr dry time stated on the can. My vote is for the stain not being cured enough.


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## Scotiadawg (Dec 5, 2011)

NCPaint1 said:


> I just used some last night at my house, didnt notice any issue. Although I was applying it over cured penetrating stain. I too am wondering if the Gel Stain wasnt dry enough. Ive noticed that the Old Masters Gel seems to take longer than the 24hr dry time stated on the can. My vote is for the stain not being cured enough.


Agreed, I've used the gel b4 and had the same drying issue. What the can label says is probably in ideal situations


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Some manufacturers want a 3 day dry of oil stains before putting a wb clear on top. Crazy and impractical.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

DeanV said:


> Some manufacturers want a 3 day dry of oil stains before putting a wb clear on top. Crazy and impractical.


Well if we are using an oil stain what is the benefit to a waterborne clear coat?


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## straight_lines (Oct 17, 2007)

Julian&co said:


> Well if we are using an oil stain what is the benefit to a waterborne clear coat?


Because it stays clear.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Better flexibility, less yellowing (with most products at least), less total solvents released, ease of touch-up and repairs, less mil thickness concerns, easier to do wood finish work while others prep trim for paint, etc

Plus, oil stains just work better than WB wiping stains thus far. Once that changes, I will never use a solvent born clear coat again except in specific situations.


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## RaleighPainter (Jun 13, 2011)

Point(s) taken!


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

I guess it could have been the gel stain not being dry enough. Although, I stained and brushed the first coat of finish myself, so I'm 100% sure it had at least 24 hours of dry time in 72 degree heat with the furnace running almost constantly. It sure felt dry, it was oak veneer, wiped on-rubbed in-wiped off. I would think if the stain was the issue it would have felt tacky and would have caused the finish to blush. Neither of which were the case. The finish actually went on really nice, leveled great and dried clear to the touch super fast (<10 minutes). It just didn’t cure, and apparently hasn’t adhered properly. 

It’s good to hear that others have used the new n- formula without issue. I guess I just need to reset the learning curve.


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## Schmidt & Co. (Nov 6, 2008)

Test the product. Brush it on some _bare oak_ and see how it goes. You will have your answer the next day when you sand.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

*testing in progress*



Dried, adhered, and sanded fine after only 2 hours on bare fir. The second coat went on fine and I’m liking the way it looks, maybe even better than the old formula. 

Planning to test gel-stained samples at 24,48,72 hour dry times, side by side with old formula.


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

*More test results*

I used the back of one of the drawer fronts I had to strip and restain to perform the side-by-side, 24 hour dry time, old masters gel stain test. 72 degrees, 38% RH. One coat of old formula next to one coat of new formula, 3.5 hours finish dry time.

The old formula didn't pass the test, I was able to get tape to lift finish about 25% of the time, and scrape small bits off with my finger nail. It sanded ok for only having 3.5 hours of dry time. I have a feeling that if I give it more time to dry it might pass. To be continued.......

The new formula was much softer. 100% tape lift, I was able to pull off finish with my fingers in sheets. 

More results to come.....


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## ExcelPaintingCo (Apr 16, 2011)

*Tests concluded early*

I can quit my testing early because both new and old formula Stays Clear passed all tests on the stained solid fir after 24 hours.

That leads me to conclude that, due to the lower penetration and absorption characteristics of oak veneer compared to solid fir, Old Masters gel stain takes longer to dry on oak veneer.

Title of topic should be changed to- Warning!! Give gel-stain >24 hours dry time before applying wb topcoats.

I gave the pieces I had to redo 36 hours for the stain to dry and they turned out fine with the old formula.

My apologies to BM and all else!
The end!


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## NCPaint1 (Aug 6, 2009)

Excellent thread.  people are too quick to trash a product or manufacturer. Glad you took the initiative and tested the product to figure out what went wrong.


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## DeanV (Apr 18, 2007)

Thing is, low voc wb's are doing things that higher voc wb's did not do and manufacturers are not communicating this well to customers.


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## jason123 (Jul 2, 2009)

me and gel stains have never been "dry". i did a door took days in between coats. did a banister days i tell ya days. my conclusion is i put it on to thick,,no really,, i ended up coming back and rubbing the wet stuff off.. i guess i was trying to go dark to fast.


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