# Oak staircase



## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

I have a brand new oak staircase, handrail etc. to do. Brand New. Client dropping pieces at my shop. Was thinking of trying the Saman Waterborne Stain and Clear Coat. Has anyone tried this product? I've seen and heard good things and they have have a ton of colour selections at my BM store..
Thoughts? Would you consider using a sanding sealer first or just stain and 3 coats of clear? Trying to use more waterborne products these days..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I have a brand new oak staircase, handrail etc. to do. Brand New. Client dropping pieces at my shop. Was thinking of trying the Saman Waterborne Stain and Clear Coat. Has anyone tried this product? I've seen and heard good things and they have have a ton of colour selections at my BM store..
> Thoughts? Would you consider using a sanding sealer first or just stain and 3 coats of clear? Trying to use more waterborne products these days..



I have used some of this product, overall its decent and you will have good results on oak. The one thing I like about the stain is it has a really long open time you can always blend into existing stain up to days later AND you can change colors simply by going over existing stain with a different color. I have tried with a few different clear coats and they all pull up stain when brushing over even 72 hours later it still pulled up stain. Its FULL of propylene glycol and won't freeze, i would be hesitant to even call it water based. Spray your clear to lock it in if possible.



I hate the bottle design, first thing a customer did with it when I demoed the bottle was spill half of it on my counter. I have heard from other retailers that customers will request to put it in a different container.


They also heavily promote intermixing and tinting their stain on gennex. Then why have 40+ different stock colors? This and the stain pulling up are the main reasons why I'm not stocking it. Like the general finishes _retail _stain, out of the container it produces consistent colors across wood species but it also masks a lot more of the grain than I would like.


In the end I have had better results with general finishes waterborne products (their dyes work fabulously on oak), saman is a good product but its too different for my customers.


The general finishes RTM stains are really nice too, very different from the retail stain which feels more like a gel stain and can be used as such.


General finishes also has a MUCH more robust product support.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Hmmmmm. Interesting. Weird about the stain lifting. I feel like you got talked into carrying that stain a while back. lol. Does that mean I need to wait 72 hours before topcoating?? Might I add, I'm not married to having to use this product. I've just seen it around and heard good things, but mostly from staff and reps etc. Definitely don't want to F up a staircase.. I mean I'll use good ol MinWax if I have to. Atleast it's predictable.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Hmmmmm. Interesting. Weird about the stain lifting. I feel like you got talked into carrying that stain a while back. lol. Does that mean I need to wait 72 hours before topcoating?? Might I add, I'm not married to having to use this product. I've just seen it around and heard good things, but mostly from staff and reps etc. Definitely don't want to F up a staircase.. I mean I'll use good ol MinWax if I have to. Atleast it's predictable.



I had the reps in my store. Wasn't impressed with their canned sales pitch it felt like a infomercial and they were just following a script. Same when I sent them a follow up email got a generic canned response. Call up general finishes and you'll get to talk to some of the friendliest people who genuinely enjoy supporting their product.



I will say besides the stain lifting it is a very easy product to use and I can definitely see the benefit of being able to change stain color. Had a customer who stained a bunch of doors with minwax and one doug fir door came out WAY more red than the others. What a simple fix it would be to just go right over it with a different stain color...


Spraying is the only sure fire way I found to not lift the stain.


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## Mr Smith (Mar 11, 2016)

I've used the Saman clear poly over Advance to make it more durable for flat surfaces like built-ins or fireplace mantels that will have things sitting on it.

It's also adds durability to painted handrails etc. Advance isn't the most scuff resistant coating. It brushes great and levels very well. 

The BM store owner recommended the Saman poly over the BM Stays Clear.

They also use this stuff for hardwood floors so it's crazy tough.


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## PPD (Mar 19, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> I have used some of this product, overall its decent and you will have good results on oak. The one thing I like about the stain is it has a really long open time you can always blend into existing stain up to days later AND you can change colors simply by going over existing stain with a different color. I have tried with a few different clear coats and they all pull up stain when brushing over even 72 hours later it still pulled up stain. Its FULL of propylene glycol and won't freeze, i would be hesitant to even call it water based. Spray your clear to lock it in if possible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow its got burn in capability DAYS later?! Thats pretty impressive...I wonder if it be ideal for blending old wood flooring/stairs into new wood since thats always touch and go & being able to come back at different times of light to blend colors further would be awesome! 

Wouldn’t a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac prevent the topcoat pull?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

PPD said:


> Wow its got burn in capability DAYS later?! Thats pretty impressive...I wonder if it be ideal for blending old wood flooring/stairs into new wood since thats always touch and go & being able to come back at different times of light to blend colors further would be awesome!
> 
> Wouldn’t a barrier coat of dewaxed shellac prevent the topcoat pull?



Yes, I didn't try that but I suspect its somewhat soluble to alcohol as well. It wouldn't be a big deal except your brush becomes contaminated with stain much like when you brush over aniline dye.


the recommend method of application is applied rubbing with a sponge or cheesecloth. Its very different feeling from applying traditional wiping or penetrating stains.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Yes, I didn't try that but I suspect its somewhat soluble to alcohol as well. It wouldn't be a big deal except your brush becomes contaminated with stain much like when you brush over aniline dye.
> 
> 
> the recommend method of application is applied rubbing with a sponge or cheesecloth. Its very different feeling from applying traditional wiping or penetrating stains.


Kind of makes sense being a waterborne stain and all. I have never actually used a water stain so can't compare to any others. I will however be spraying the clearcoat for sure. Wonder if I should just use an oil stain and then spray water clear coat?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Kind of makes sense being a waterborne stain and all. I have never actually used a water stain so can't compare to any others. I will however be spraying the clearcoat for sure. Wonder if I should just use an oil stain and then spray water clear coat?


If your spraying clear saman stain is really easy to use.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> If your spraying clear saman stain is really easy to use.


Update. Turned out pretty good!


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I have a brand new oak staircase, handrail etc. to do. Brand New. Client dropping pieces at my shop. Was thinking of trying the Saman Waterborne Stain and Clear Coat. Has anyone tried this product? I've seen and heard good things and they have have a ton of colour selections at my BM store..
> Thoughts? Would you consider using a sanding sealer first or just stain and 3 coats of clear? Trying to use more waterborne products these days..



What did you need end up using? 
Turned out perfect - looks 'factory'.

---

Would you mind sharing your method? 
Did you spray stain and clear? 
Are you using HVLP? Are you thinning? etc...


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

You got to finish the bull nose section of the flooring in the shop? A landing perhaps? Either way, nice. Something that in my 40+ years of painting I never did or ever even considered. Almost makes me wish I were still active in the trade. I've finish hundreds of staircases in shop, never thought of that.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

I like the 2x4 + dowel drying system. 

I may borrow that :detective:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> What did you need end up using?
> Turned out perfect - looks 'factory'.
> 
> ---
> ...


So, ya this was the "Saman" waterbased pentrating stain with Saman Waterbased Polyurethane Clear.
A really enjoyable experience actually. Super easy to use and hardly any smell.
I wiped the stain on with a staining sponge and wiped off with clean white rags. I pre-wet the oak to open the grain prior to staining which worked like crazy. Although it did raise the grain a bit more than I would have liked..
I sprayed the poly on with my graco airless 310fflp. Went on super smooth and flawless. Dryed very quick also. Sprayed 3 coats on steps and tops of handrails, 2 on everything else. No thinning. Would definitely use it again.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> You got to finish the bull nose section of the flooring in the shop? A landing perhaps? Either way, nice. Something that in my 40+ years of painting I never did or ever even considered. Almost makes me wish I were still active in the trade. I've finish hundreds of staircases in shop, never thought of that.


 Ya, all the components of the staircase were delivered to my shop straight from the factory for finishing.
Rails, bullnosing, steps etc. Was a nice experience to work with new wood for a change. 
Did you do mostly new stuff, or did you also do refinishes.?


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Ya, all the components of the staircase were delivered to my shop straight from the factory for finishing.
> Rails, bullnosing, steps etc. Was a nice experience to work with new wood for a change.
> Did you do mostly new stuff, or did you also do refinishes.?


New...and most staircases were done in shop...including bull nose....but the bull nose never had the flooring attached. So there was usually touch up where the bull nose and flooring meet from the carpenters sanding the bull nose/ flooring interface. Having the flooring attached would eliminate that. I'd be interested to know if that all goes together well at the flooring joints. 

I don't see any spindles...pre-finished iron? 

I wish they came into fashion sooner...only about the last 10 years of my career did they become popular. I used to hate racking spindles, sometimes 300 or more. 16 on a rack. Once racked, spray away, it was all money ...:smile:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> New...and most staircases were done in shop...including bull nose....but the bull nose never had the flooring attached. So there was usually touch up where the bull nose and flooring meet from the carpenters sanding the bull nose/ flooring interface. Having the flooring attached would eliminate that. I'd be interested to know if that all goes together well at the flooring joints.
> 
> I don't see any spindles...pre-finished iron?
> 
> I wish they came into fashion sooner...only about the last 10 years of my career did they become popular. I used to hate racking spindles, sometimes 300 or more. 16 on a rack. Once racked, spray away, it was all money ...:smile:


Ya, all the bullnosing was attached to the stairs and corner landing pieces. (the bigger ones). The bullnossing that goes under the top spindles, were seperate pieces, but flooring is pre finished and just butts up against it.
Spindles were all metal I believe yes.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> New...and most staircases were done in shop...including bull nose....but the bull nose never had the flooring attached. So there was usually touch up where the bull nose and flooring meet from the carpenters sanding the bull nose/ flooring interface. Having the flooring attached would eliminate that. I'd be interested to know if that all goes together well at the flooring joints.
> 
> I don't see any spindles...pre-finished iron?
> 
> I wish they came into fashion sooner...only about the last 10 years of my career did they become popular. I used to hate racking spindles, sometimes 300 or more. 16 on a rack. Once racked, spray away, it was all money ...:smile:


This is the top bullnosing I think your referring too..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

finishesbykevyn said:


> So, ya this was the "Saman" waterbased pentrating stain with Saman Waterbased Polyurethane Clear.
> A really enjoyable experience actually. Super easy to use and hardly any smell.
> I wiped the stain on with a staining sponge and wiped off with clean white rags. I pre-wet the oak to open the grain prior to staining which worked like crazy. Although it did raise the grain a bit more than I would have liked..
> I sprayed the poly on with my graco airless 310fflp. Went on super smooth and flawless. Dryed very quick also. Sprayed 3 coats on steps and tops of handrails, 2 on everything else. No thinning. Would definitely use it again.


Spraying seems to give a really smooth, consistent finish. You must use a lot of product just to prime the lines? 
I've heard before that grain-lifting is one drawback of water-based - do you sand back before or after the first clear coat? 

I often use traditional oil-based stain and oil-based Poly (wiped and brushed/rubbed). I would be poisoning myself trying to spray either one of those. May need to start thinking about switching over to waterborne.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

I hope the installers are equally as conscientious and caring with installing them as you were with finishing them. Looks great!


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> finishesbykevyn said:
> 
> 
> > So, ya this was the "Saman" waterbased pentrating stain with Saman Waterbased Polyurethane Clear.
> ...


Saman stain by its self very minimal grain raise since it's mostly propylene glycol. Calling it water based is a misnomer IMO.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> This is the top bullnosing I think your referring too..


Actually I was referring to the last pic in the series .....I thought it was bull nose with flooring attached. Upon closer examination those 2 pieces appear to be treads with stepped rear cuts....what is the purpose??? I never saw such treads.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Saman stain by its self very minimal grain raise since it's mostly propylene glycol. Calling it water based is a misnomer IMO.


p.g. is water soluble, is it not?


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> p.g. is water soluble, is it not?



propylene glycol is a solvent. 100% soluble in water and also miscible in oil, acetone, alcohol etc..


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> propylene glycol is a solvent. 100% soluble in water and also miscible in oil, acetone, alcohol etc..


Is Samans a Canadian product? I've never seen it in a store before? 


Good point that Samans doesn't raise the grain, as it is mostly Propylene Glycol, but why would it be a misnomer to call it "water-based"? 
Seems like from what you said, that PG is irrelevant in determining whether a product is water-based. 


All due respect, there is enough confusing lingo/jargon to keep track of. As far as I'm concerned, if it cleans up with soap and water, it's water-based.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> Is Samans a Canadian product? I've never seen it in a store before?
> 
> 
> Good point that Samans doesn't raise the grain, as it is mostly Propylene Glycol, but why would it be a misnomer to call it "water-based"?
> ...



Is it water based or is it glycol based? Certainly it is soap and water cleanup.



It is 'canadian' but like many other Canadian products I suspect it is actually manufactured in china.
"Guangdong NAOS Investment Co Ltd."


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Lightningboy65 said:


> Actually I was referring to the last pic in the series .....I thought it was bull nose with flooring attached. Upon closer examination those 2 pieces appear to be treads with stepped rear cuts....what is the purpose??? I never saw such treads.


 I believe those are a landing tread of sorts that will be cut to size on site..


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Spraying seems to give a really smooth, consistent finish. You must use a lot of product just to prime the lines?
> I've heard before that grain-lifting is one drawback of water-based - do you sand back before or after the first clear coat?
> 
> I often use traditional oil-based stain and oil-based Poly (wiped and brushed/rubbed). I would be poisoning myself trying to spray either one of those. May need to start thinking about switching over to waterborne.


I only use a 25' hose so its not bad. I bought a full gallon anyhow as I had quite a bit to do. But yes, for this kind of stuff, like stairs and flat surfaces, spraying (with an airless)is soo fast and smooth. You can also lay it on pretty generously when spraying flat. I lightly sanded and sprayed a 2nd coat on 13 treads, handrails, bullnosing , newel posts and misc. stuff in like 1.5 - 2 hrs I think.

I agree, I wouldn't want to be spraying oil based either. Atleast not that much. 
However I am using some Old Masters oil stain and poly on some chairs, but brushing it all with good results. Just stinky!
I wouldn't sand after staining or you'll ruin your finish. I do give a light sand after first coat of poly to take grain down a bit, but have to careful not to burn through!
Just for the record, I don't believe it was the stain that rose the grain, rather wetting it with water first as per instructions..
I did some testing without pre-wetting and I couldn't get it dark enough. After wetting with water and a wet cloth and letting it dry, it took the stain like crazy.
But..rose some of the grain. Not bad though.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

finishesbykevyn said:


> I believe those are a landing tread of sorts that will be cut to size on site..


I assume given the staggered cut it will tie into multiple rows of flooring. Quite different than any landing piece I've ever seen. Standard practice on landings is a piece regular bull nose with hardwood flooring run up to it....at least around here. 

Do you happen to know the name of the company that produced the stair case? I'd like to look into this. I don't know why, it kind of has my interest.


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

Lightningboy65 said:


> I assume given the staggered cut it will tie into multiple rows of flooring. Quite different than any landing piece I've ever seen. Standard practice on landings is a piece regular bull nose with hardwood flooring run up to it....at least around here.
> 
> Do you happen to know the name of the company that produced the stair case? I'd like to look into this. I don't know why, it kind of has my interest.


They’re probably winder treads and will be cut into wedges for a 90 degree turn.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Redux said:


> They’re probably winder treads and will be cut into wedges for a 90 degree turn.


That's what I was thinking. I never did ask tough. Will ask my client for clarification. Don't want anybody loosing any sleep!


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

Holland said:


> Is Samans a Canadian product? I've never seen it in a store before?
> 
> 
> Good point that Samans doesn't raise the grain, as it is mostly Propylene Glycol, but why would it be a misnomer to call it "water-based"?
> ...


Home Depot and my local BM dealer carry Saman here in NL. Lots of flavours available.


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## Holland (Feb 18, 2011)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Is it water based or is it glycol based? Certainly it is soap and water cleanup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn’t locate a spec sheet for Samans, but I’ll take your word for it. 
Apparently I could learn something about stain.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Holland said:


> cocomonkeynuts said:
> 
> 
> > Is it water based or is it glycol based? Certainly it is soap and water cleanup.
> ...


If you open a bottle of saman next to general finishes you'll see what I mean, they have a totally different feel in the can/bottle.

And trust me on this one the general finishes dye stains blow away saman as far as grain definition. Night and day difference.

Both saman and general finishes 'retail' stains come out sort of unnaturally even looking.


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## Lightningboy65 (Mar 12, 2018)

Redux said:


> They’re probably winder treads and will be cut into wedges for a 90 degree turn.


That makes perfect sense....In the old days they just did a larger rectangle and had a lot more waste. No waste these days!!! I just couldn't figure out how that piece would work....and it was really bugging me! Thanks A.R.:smile:


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> If you open a bottle of saman next to general finishes you'll see what I mean, they have a totally different feel in the can/bottle.
> 
> And trust me on this one the general finishes dye stains blow away saman as far as grain definition. Night and day difference.
> 
> Both saman and general finishes 'retail' stains come out sort of unnaturally even looking.


Would love to try some GF sometime but unfortunely not available in Eastern Canada., so won't be anytime soon. Thanks for sharing though.


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

finishesbykevyn said:


> Would love to try some GF sometime but unfortunely not available in Eastern Canada., so won't be anytime soon. Thanks for sharing though.



Have you been able to discern if Saman is manufactured in canada? What is their affiliation with that chinese company who is also affiliated with canlak?


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## Redux (Oct 27, 2018)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Have you been able to discern if Saman is manufactured in canada? What is their affiliation with that chinese company who is also affiliated with canlak?


SamaN has had a string of bad luck...My Moore’s dealer shared a story with me where they acquired a bunch of smoke damaged inventory due to a fire at SamaN’s warehouse in Jan 2017. 

6 months earlier, the SamaN plant and its contents were completely destroyed in yet another fire. 

A few weeks prior to that, there was also a recall of their Legend protective Tung Oil due to the product not meeting labeling requirements involving the potential for spontaneous combustion. 

Bad SamaN..


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## cocomonkeynuts (Apr 14, 2017)

Redux said:


> SamaN has had a string of bad luck...My Moore’s dealer shared a story with me where they acquired a bunch of smoke damaged inventory due to a fire at SamaN’s warehouse in Jan 2017.
> 
> 6 months earlier, the SamaN plant and its contents were completely destroyed in yet another fire.
> 
> ...



speaking of spontaneous combustion the store in great falls burned down recently. suspected spontaneous combustion due to oil paint soaked rags next to xylene soaked rags that went into the bin.


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## finishesbykevyn (Apr 14, 2010)

cocomonkeynuts said:


> Have you been able to discern if Saman is manufactured in canada? What is their affiliation with that chinese company who is also affiliated with canlak?


No idea. I'll ask my rep here..


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